Ask Bobby Jindal About His Creationism

Politics • Views: 7,700

Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal is on Meet the Press this Sunday; David Gregory has a post on his blog asking for questions: The View From Here: I need YOUR thoughts on Jindal. (Hat tip: Cronus.)

Thinking about the interview with Governor Bobby Jindal Sunday. He’s thought to be a serious GOP contender for 2012. He was on the short list to be McCain’s veep last year. And he’s been chosen to give the response to President Obama Tuesday after the address to Congress. So what do you want to know about him that would help you determine whether he’s a serious contender for the White House.

I’m listening and hoping you will comment.

Here are some things I’d like to see Jindal address.

Everything the media tried to pin on Sarah Palin, Jindal actually did: he promoted and signed a creationism bill (with help from the Discovery Institute), he took part in an amateur exorcism and claimed it cured a woman of cancer, and possibly worst of all, he pals around with people on the extreme edges of fundamentalist Christianity, and at least one person who has associated with outright neo-Nazis: Bobby Jindal’s Creationism and Alliance with David Barton.

Who is David Barton?

In 1991 Barton addressed the Rocky Mountain Bible Retreat of Pastor Pete Peters’ Scriptures for America, a group that espouses the racist “Christian Identity” theology. Advocates of this bizarre dogma insist that white Anglo-Saxons are the “true” chosen people of the Bible and charge that today’s Jews are usurpers. Aside from being a virulent anti-Semite, Peters has advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. According to the Anti-Defamation League, other speakers at the event included white supremacist leader and 1992 presidential candidate James “Bo” Gritz, a leader of the radical and increasingly violent militia movement, and Malcolm Ross, a Holocaust denier from Canada. In November of that same year, Barton spoke at Kingdom Covenant College in Grants Pass, Oregon, another “Christian Identity” front group with ties to Peters.

Asked to explain these actions, Barton’s reply amounted to a not very creative “I didn’t know they were Nazis” dodge. In a July 1993 letter, Barton assistant Kit Marshall wrote, “At the time we were contacted by Pete Peters, we had absolutely no idea that he was ‘part of the Nazi movement.’ He contacted us for David to speak for Scriptures for America. The title is quite innocuous. In all the conversations that I personally had with Pete Peters, never once was there a hint that they were part of a Nazi movement. I would also like to point out that simply because David Barton gives a presentation to a group of people does not mean that he endorses all their beliefs.” An excuse like that might have washed one time, but it stretches the bounds of credulity to accept that Barton was twice duped by innocuous-sounding extremist organizations.

UPDATE at 2/21/09 8:40:59 am:

More details on that amateur exorcism:

Youtube Video

UPDATE at 2/21/09 9:36:35 am:

More troubling connections to extreme fundamentalists; Jindal’s ‘Louisiana Commission on Marriage and Family’ is loaded with fundamentalists and creationists, including Tony Perkins and Gene Mills of the Family Research Council.

Tony Perkins:

In 2001, Perkins addressed the Council of Conservative Citizens (successor organization to the anti-integration White Citizens Council) - a known racist group with an agenda of white supremacy.

The Nation claims that in 1996, Perkins paid former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke $82,000 for use of his mailing list. At the time, Perkins was campaign manager for Louis E. “Woody” Jenkins, a Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate in Louisiana. The Federal Election Commission fined the Jenkins campaign $3,000 for attempting to hide the money paid to Duke. The Family Research Council says Blumenthal’s claims about Perkins’ connection to David Duke are false; FRC adds that Duke’s “connection was not known to Mr. Perkins until 1999. Mr. Perkins profoundly opposes the racial views of Mr. Duke and was profoundly grieved to learn that Duke was a party to the company that had done work for the 1996 campaign.”

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781 comments
1 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:34:22am

My question is still awaiting Mr. Gregory's moderation, but here it is:

I would ask him to list the so-called weaknesses of evolution that he felt needed to be protected and promoted by law, because there are none. (Brush up on "Irreducible Complexity", and do not accept it as an answer as it has been thoroughly debunked.)

Why did he open his state up to a lawsuit to promote a stealth-creationist agenda?

Since he's Catholic, is he aware that the Vatican accepts evolution and has rejected Intelligent Design?

And what about that exorcism he took part in?

2 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:34:38am

What, rubbing shoulders with the neoconfederate nazi axis too? What's next?

3 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:36:23am

Could somebody ask Gregory why he writes at a 4th grade level?

4 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:37:28am

Anyone with a TypePad account can leave a comment at Gregory's blog.

5 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:40:05am

An important point about the exorcism Jindal participated in: this was not an official rite sanctioned by any church -- it was an amateur exorcism by a campus religious group. More details:

Youtube Video
6 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:40:55am

Isn't Jindal Indian?

7 Bloodnok  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:43:30am

re: #6 FrogMarch

Isn't Jindal Indian?

He's American, with Indian heritage.

8 astronmr20  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:43:50am

As opposed to a "professional exorcism?"

9 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:44:01am

If the republican party means to excise Obama from the White House in 4 years, they had better not nominate this exorcist

10 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:44:10am

Being that Jindal is a Republican, the questions may actually be asked. And in the nastiest possible way, too.

11 kynna  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:44:17am

The exorcism that Jindal took part in has nothing to do with him being a governor. When he brings his faith into his governing then it's a problem.

There's a difference between having a certain faith and shoving that faith down others' throats. He's crossed that line with the creationist bill. But the amateur exorcism is actually not part of the package. If he made mandatory exorcisms a law, or part of a health care plan, then I'd have an issue.

Does that make sense? Otherwise it's kicking him for a preference. Adding it to the list makes the list about his faith, not his governing, IMO. Free choice seems to have been an integral part of that particular event.

12 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:44:22am

David's query shoulda read ' I need some thoughts'.
He's a really lame replacement for Tim Russert.

13 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:45:08am

I'm curious. Would Jindal's personal beliefs prevent you from voting for him?

14 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:45:38am
....a group that espouses the racist “Christian Identity” theology. Advocates of this bizarre dogma insist that white Anglo-Saxons are the “true” chosen people of the Bible....

Racist Bastards.

Gal. 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Co. 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Race, class, gender, culture DO NOT MATTER!

That this is presented twice raises it to an apostolic commandment. Disregarding this teaching is a serious theological misaiming. Such a fundamental error is indicative of an overall ignorance and misuse of scripture.

15 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:45:43am

re: #11 kynna

The exorcism that Jindal took part in has nothing to do with him being a governor. When he brings his faith into his governing then it's a problem.

There's a difference between having a certain faith and shoving that faith down others' throats. He's crossed that line with the creationist bill. But the amateur exorcism is actually not part of the package. If he made mandatory exorcisms a law, or part of a health care plan, then I'd have an issue.

Does that make sense? Otherwise it's kicking him for a preference. Adding it to the list makes the list about his faith, not his governing, IMO. Free choice seems to have been an integral part of that particular event.

What politicians do in their free time does matter, if it's batshit crazy

16 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:46:51am

Governor J: Your creationist position is sure to garner much internal support, but is bound to fail when unseating a Dem. Is this a strategy you can live with?

17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:46:56am

re: #6 FrogMarch

Isn't Jindal Indian?

Answers his office phone with, "Governor Bobby Jindal. How can I offer you excellent public service today."

18 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:46:57am

it's too bad. He's really got a lot going for him otherwise:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

19 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:47:10am

re: #5 Charles

(Not that it would have been any better if it had been sanctioned by a church.)

20 Stonemason  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:47:12am

Forgive my not-so-deep understanding of history, but is it not the 'normal' way of things for societies to venture towards extremism when things get placid?
In other words, we, as a country perceive no outside fight, those of us who accept that the islamist terrorists mean business are a distinct minority, so the polar politics creep towards extremism.
It is the historical period before the collapse of a society, as my limited reading has led me to understand.
Or, in the case of the late 1700's in America, it has led to a revolution that installs a moderate government.
I am not sure where we are headed, really, I am unsure of what the nation can stomach. What I am afraid of is the Jindel followers fighting with the Obama followers, that is going to get ugly, and many people are going to b caught up in a fight they want no part of.
You see, we want to fight the socialist policies of Obama, we will NOT ally ourselves with the Jindels of the country, but they will hang on our coattails, we all know they will. Meanwhile, on the other side, the communists and the anarchists, while not endorsed by the Obama crowd, will continue to hang on their coattails.
These two extremes are becoming more vocal as time wears on, as more people join the apathetic middle.
While all of this is going on, the terrorists are building a base, right here in America, a base that fights both sides slowly, quietly. Applauding every gain by both extremes, the fascists on the left and the fascists on the right.

I depressed myself, time to go back to lurking.

21 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:47:43am

re: #6 FrogMarch

Isn't Jindal Indian?

Yes, converted from Hinduism to Catholicism.

And I think this happened soon after his conversion to Christianity.
It is seriously creepy.

22 Bloodnok  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:47:51am

re: #13 TradeBait

I'm curious. Would Jindal's personal beliefs prevent you from voting for him?

To believe in creation is not the same as being a creationist, if that's where you're headed.

23 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:47:52am

Every time a Jindal discussion comes up, I find myself wondering what I'd do if the 2012 presidential race is between Jindal and BHO.

It makes me very sad to contemplate.

24 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:47:53am

If Gregory does ask him about creationism and the exorcism tomorrow, Jindal's presidential aspirations could be pretty much over before they even begin.

I will actually watch Meet the Press tomorrow to see if this does come up, because if it doesn't, I will have to conclude the msm wants to foist this guy to the top of the heap to help 0bama's re-election.

25 lawhawk  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:47:57am

Greets and saluts. It's interesting that Gregory is asking folks to submit questions to pose to Jindal. I can't seem to recall him doing the same to others, like various Democrats who have extreme left agendas. Do I smell a wee bit o' bias there?

That said, Jindal's positions don't comport with the Catholic Church's position on evolution, intelligent design, or just plain old common sense, especially in Jindal's contacts with Barton.

Jindal may have the fiscal responsibility of a conservative, but his other positions are troubling to say the least. Clarifications are definitely warranted.

Specifically, I'd be asking him precisely why he felt it necessary to support and approve the ID sponsored legislation that opens the door to junk science and crank theory into the classroom? Public schools are in rough enough shape as it is, that adding this only further complicates matters and makes preparing students for a technologically competitive workplace more difficult.

26 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:48:20am

I've commented and posted links in the past about Christian Identity groups (also know as covenant groups), and just as a reminder, you have to really be careful, because you will find Christian Identity popping up in places you would never expect, or at least never realize.

There are a lot of isolated little congregations of "christians" who follow this doctrine, from the benign (Christians are the real Jews, but God will save the Jews in time) to dangerous (race wars against Jews, Blacks, Catholics, basically anyone not of the New Covenant)

It will also be found under the rubric Israelism (orAnglo-Israelism)
Even Joseph Smith was engrossed in the subject, reading a number of books on the concepts. Info

All in all, it's bigger than you would imagine, and it stinks. Wiki

27 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:48:20am

re: #7 Bloodnok

He's American, with Indian heritage.

thanks.

28 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:49:30am

re: #7 Bloodnok

He's American, with Indian heritage.

so he's an American Indian?

this is getting confusing

29 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:50:13am

re: #22 Bloodnok

Wasn't headed in any particular direction. Just curious. I'd vote for the man, I think, at least against any Dem. The exorcism thing is way out there, though.

30 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:51:05am

re: #7 Bloodnok

He's American, with Indian heritage.

Has anyone ever seen his birth certificate? Hmmm?

/

31 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:51:24am

re: #13 TradeBait

I'm curious. Would Jindal's personal beliefs prevent you from voting for him?

It is his actions as the Executive of the State of Louisiana that I have a problem with. By signing the "academic freedom" bill into law, he's opened Louisiana up to a lawsuit, and his actions are encroaching on the rights of the people to freely exercise their religion. Just this alone shows he's not executive material for the entire nation.

32 lawhawk  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:51:42am

re: #24 Sharmuta

I wouldn't be 100% certain; after all, President Obama was elected despite clear ties to racist preachers, former terrorists, and all manner of extremists.

It was all about hope and change. Four years is a long time, and if things go from bad to worse under Obama, Jindal could represent the hope and change that people look for.

One further thing - it's one thing to hold these beliefs in private - that's perfectly within his rights. It's quite another to impose those beliefs on the naiton (or his state) by pushing an agenda that is anti-science and anti-competitive - which the DI backed legislation succeeds in doing.

33 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:51:56am

None of this had made any mention of this here in New Orleans that I'm aware of. No one on local talk radio has brought this up. People here in Louisiana are just so grateful to have an honest politician for pretty much the first time ever! He is a very hard working and dedicated public servant and so far does not seem to be in this for himself in any dishonest illegal way.

There was a question on that link about what he has done about foreclosures and also to my knowledge, people in Louisana haven't had these problems. I guess its because the cost of real estate isn't overwhelming. He's very much involved in trying to help the coastal problems that created the dangers of hurricane damage. I'm not all the way awake right now to be more detailed and specific. lol

34 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:52:14am

Gov J: In the interests of getting you out of the running right now, and giving conservative voices a chance, what is it about exorcism that rings your bells?

35 astronmr20  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:52:21am

re: #5 Charles

An important point about the exorcism Jindal participated in: this was not an official rite sanctioned by any church -- it was an amateur exorcism by a campus religious group. More details:


[Video]

Charles,

Nowhere in the Bible does it specify that "official clergy must cast out demons and no one else."

In fact, it's the opposite:

"Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." (Luke 10:19).

"Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, and to have authority to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons." (Mark 3:14,15).

Just giving you a "theological" perspective as I understand it... not making any assertions or trying to argue. Technically, if one is a Christian, there are several passages in the New Testament that indicate that Jesus' followers have this authority and ability if they are "with him."

I'm not defending Jindal's creationism legislation, however.

36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:52:40am

What's the problem? I am more concerned about BHO's attempt to exorcise every dollar I make.

37 albusteve  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:53:22am

re: #24 Sharmuta

If Gregory does ask him about creationism and the exorcism tomorrow, Jindal's presidential aspirations could be pretty much over before they even begin.

I will actually watch Meet the Press tomorrow to see if this does come up, because if it doesn't, I will have to conclude the msm wants to foist this guy to the top of the heap to help 0bama's re-election.

my thoughts exactly...well said

38 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:53:26am

re: #31 Sharmuta

So, in a theoretical match-up between Obama/Jinda you'd vote .. Obama? Or maybe as I did in the last election, elect not to vote?

39 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:53:32am

re: #29 TradeBait

Wasn't headed in any particular direction. Just curious. I'd vote for the man, I think, at least against any Dem. The exorcism thing is way out there, though.

I did vote for him for governor, and I have to say I've been sorely disappointed.

Apart from the creepy stuff, Jindal is a "problem-solver", does his best work during crisis situations where he can be in charge and get things moving.

But as far as his ability to do any sort of long-range planning or work with others to get things done, he is seriously lacking. And those abilities would be critically important for a president to have.

40 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:53:41am

re: #1 Sharmuta

My question is still awaiting Mr. Gregory's moderation, but here it is:

I would ask him to list the so-called weaknesses of evolution that he felt needed to be protected and promoted by law, because there are none. (Brush up on "Irreducible Complexity", and do not accept it as an answer as it has been thoroughly debunked.)

Why did he open his state up to a lawsuit to promote a stealth-creationist agenda?

Since he's Catholic, is he aware that the Vatican accepts evolution and has rejected Intelligent Design?

And what about that exorcism he took part in?

Those will make Jindal squirm.

41 Bloodnok  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:54:22am

re: #29 TradeBait

Wasn't headed in any particular direction. Just curious. I'd vote for the man, I think, at least against any Dem. The exorcism thing is way out there, though.

I would have a hard time voting for someone I considered a loon (for whatever loonish view I took them to have). I wouldn't vote for someone who denied reality because it would be a dead giveaway as to their judgment. The belief itself does not jeopardize me.

42 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:54:59am

Thing is about Louisiana is that just keeping kids in school is a huge problem. I think at this point, this is being made a bigger issue than it actually is. No one here is even talking about this. We have THE worst schools in all of the US.

43 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:55:02am

Gov J, we Libs should coddle you along until you get demolished by BHO's crowd in the big race. So, are you interested in sports? Which ones?

44 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:56:00am

re: #33 Teacake!

None of this had made any mention of this here in New Orleans that I'm aware of. No one on local talk radio has brought this up. People here in Louisiana are just so grateful to have an honest politician for pretty much the first time ever! He is a very hard working and dedicated public servant and so far does not seem to be in this for himself in any dishonest illegal way.

There was a question on that link about what he has done about foreclosures and also to my knowledge, people in Louisana haven't had these problems. I guess its because the cost of real estate isn't overwhelming. He's very much involved in trying to help the coastal problems that created the dangers of hurricane damage. I'm not all the way awake right now to be more detailed and specific. lol

Teacake - he is honest, that is true.

But I'm wondering if the reason you are having trouble coming up with specifics isn't because you're not yet awake, but instead is because there aren't many specifics available, just general observations.

If Jindal has any sort of coherent long-range plan for Louisiana, I have no clue what it is.

45 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:56:31am

Just remember--it could be worse. David Duke, Edwin Edwards, Kathleen Blanco. Gotta put in a plug for the old home state.

46 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:56:33am

re: #32 lawhawk

I don't believe the msm plays fair. They covered up 0bama's ties to the extremists, and would do so for jindal only until it was time to tear him apart and it was too late for the GOP to turn back. I smell a potential sham in progress.

47 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:56:45am

Gov J, I understand from a poster on LGF that LA has the worst schools in all of the US. So, your plan is to make them into religious schools to solve this problem?

48 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:56:48am

Sad to say, but I don't think we'll see another Reagan in my lifetime. I supported Romney in the last go around, but he had issues, as well.

49 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:56:50am

Has anybody here actually watched MTP since Gregory has been the host?

50 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:57:06am

re: #42 Teacake!

Thing is about Louisiana is that just keeping kids in school is a huge problem. I think at this point, this is being made a bigger issue than it actually is. No one here is even talking about this. We have THE worst schools in all of the US.

But we are talking about it here, on LGF. And it is an issue, if you look at the bigger picture. There is an evident snowballing of this stealth creationism being interjected into state after state.

So, it may not be YOUR issue, but it is certainly a constitutional issue for the country, and an issue for the GOP, which is slowly drowning itself again in social conservatism.

51 Timbre  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:57:11am

Pete Peters' LaPorte Church of Christ. It's a scary place. I've had opportunities to go over about two years worth of their literature, namely "The Dragon Slayer." There's no doubt in my mind they have militant ambitions.

52 astronmr20  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:57:46am

re: #49 itellu3times

Has anybody here actually watched MTP since Gregory has been the host?

It's only a shadow of what it was.

53 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:58:49am

re: #49 itellu3times

Has anybody here actually watched MTP since Gregory has been the host?

nope. in fact I thought Brokaw was still hosting it

54 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:58:51am

re: #47 FightingBack

No. You're thinking of Mississippi.//

55 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:11am

Gov J, You have that certain photogenicity and exotic flare that political races are made of. Can you go the distance until you are demolished in a national race? If so, welcome!

56 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:13am

re: #42 Teacake!

Thing is about Louisiana is that just keeping kids in school is a huge problem. I think at this point, this is being made a bigger issue than it actually is. No one here is even talking about this. We have THE worst schools in all of the US.

OK. So you think the way to address this problem is to sign a bill that allows creationism in science classes?

Is that going to improve the schools in Louisiana?

57 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:17am

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's the problem? I am more concerned about BHO's attempt to exorcise every dollar I make.

Well, there's associating with a radical hate preacher. BHO did that too, and his association with Jeremiah Wright was far, far, far deeper than Jindal's with Barton, and that's not even bringing up Bill Ayers and Rashid Khalidi. And then there's Jindal's signing a creationism bill, an ugly, dangerous act that I don't think compares to the danger of Obama's porktrocity.

I don't know, at this point I think the only potential Republican who definitely would not get my vote in a race against Obama is David Duke. But the whole thing makes me feel rather ill.

58 reine.de.tout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:19am

re: #42 Teacake!

Thing is about Louisiana is that just keeping kids in school is a huge problem. I think at this point, this is being made a bigger issue than it actually is. No one here is even talking about this. We have THE worst schools in all of the US.

Creationism in lieu of science would make the schools even worse than they already are, don't you think?

59 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:22am

re: #38 TradeBait

So, in a theoretical match-up between Obama/Jinda you'd vote .. Obama? Or maybe as I did in the last election, elect not to vote?

I would exercise my right to vote for a third party or to leave that portion of my ballot blank. I will not vote for him, and I'm tired of the GOP taking my vote for granted. I want a candidate I can support, not a lesser-of-two-evils option. Sick of it!

60 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:27am

re: #49 itellu3times

Has anybody here actually watched MTP since Gregory has been the host?

or, as I call it, "Press the Meat"

61 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:34am

depending on how bad O jacks us up, a guy like jindal could get elected.
despite his strange beliefs.
there seems to be a trend around the world for backward thinking.
it is really disconcerting how established principles of science are being attacked.
we are losing the battle in the class room and if we get a creationist as potus,
that will be the nail in the coffin for education.

where is a strong conservative candidate w/ out the retrograde thinking..

62 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:59:37am

It's like submitting questions for Conon O'Brien's masturbating bear to ask Jindal in an interview.

63 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:00:06am

re: #42 Teacake!

Thing is about Louisiana is that just keeping kids in school is a huge problem. I think at this point, this is being made a bigger issue than it actually is. No one here is even talking about this. We have THE worst schools in all of the US.

Forcing religion on them won't help. Neither will the lawsuit that is to come. Neither will seeing CAIR forcing them to teach the Koran.

64 Ringo the Gringo  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:00:39am

If Jindal is the future of the Republican party, then the Republican Party doesn't have much of a future.

65 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:01:14am

re: #42 Teacake!

I didn't mean to dog-pile, Teacake.

66 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:02:18am

Gov J, if you play up your, ahem, quirky spiritual side, that will distract us from the headlong fall into third world economic status that the current admin is perpetrating on us now. What fun! Let's here some more about your religion?

67 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:02:20am

Mr. Jindal do you realize that by signing this bill into law, you have opened up the gates for any religion to force their way into the Louisiana Public School System? Do you believe that the Muslim version of creation or the Hindu version of creation should be taught in schools?

Where does it end?

68 albusteve  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:03:06am

re: #64 Ringo the Gringo

If Jindal is the future of the Republican party, then the Republican Party doesn't have much of a future.

I agree, the guy will be deathnell of the party...in my mind he is far more unelectable than McCain was...

69 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:03:27am

re: #67 Jetpilot1101

Mr. Jindal do you realize that by signing this bill into law, you have opened up the gates for any religion to force their way into the Louisiana Public School System? Do you believe that the Muslim version of creation or the Hindu version of creation should be taught in schools?

Where does it end?

Turtles!

70 Tigger2005  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:03:35am

My head just turned 180 degrees.

No, wait, that was my stomach.

71 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:03:39am

Jindal also let an anti-gay discrimination policy lapse, and promoted further restrictions on stem cell research in LA. He's full bore Social Conservative, don't expect him to have great policies or understanding of any other issues.

72 kynna  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:03:59am

re: #15 Shug

What politicians do in their free time does matter, if it's batshit crazy

Bat shit crazy is a personal judgment. Consent matters. Just like I didn't think the guy -- whatshisname Ryan -- going to a sex club with his Star Trek wife was an issue. You separate what matters to the subject at hand or you risk creeping into judgments you never meant to make.

I'm not saying this exorcism wasn't weird -- In My Opinion. And it does pretty much disqualify him for national office. But the Left loves to lump everything they don't like about a person into all the 'relevant' reasons to dismiss/oppose them. In my opinion, the exorcism is irrelevant, even as I oppose Jindal going forward.

73 Colonel Panik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:04:16am

re: #6 FrogMarch

Isn't Jindal Indian?

There is an Indian community in Louisiana and Mississipi that dates from the early 1970's when Idi Amin forced the Indians who had come to Uganda during the British Colonial period out of the country. IIRC, Jindal's parents were a part of that exodus.

74 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:04:22am

re: #67 Jetpilot1101

Mr. Jindal do you realize that by signing this bill into law, you have opened up the gates for any religion to force their way into the Louisiana Public School System? Do you believe that the Muslim version of creation or the Hindu version of creation should be taught in schools?

Where does it end?

The Turtle Stack!

75 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:04:27am

Gov J, Welcome! Have you met Gov Huckabee? You could do the same for the Reps.

76 albusteve  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:04:30am

re: #61 nyc redneck

depending on how bad O jacks us up, a guy like jindal could get elected.
despite his strange beliefs.
there seems to be a trend around the world for backward thinking.
it is really disconcerting how established principles of science are being attacked.
we are losing the battle in the class room and if we get a creationist as potus,
that will be the nail in the coffin for education.

where is a strong conservative candidate w/ out the retrograde thinking..

Mark Sanford

77 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:06:08am
OK. So you think the way to address this problem is to sign a bill that allows creationism in science classes?

I'm saying that no one in New Orleans has heard about this. Isn't in the paper or on talk radio. You know more about it than we do.

All of his radio interviews have always been on topics about infrastructure problems and what he's doing. He keeps us informed on certain topics that others ask him about. There just isn't any mention of this and if not for these articles, I'd know nothing about it here in the very state of L.

78 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:06:28am

The religious right seems to think they can hold the remainder of the republican party hostage to their social agenda, but Jindal and Huckabee is where I put my foot down. This is one "hostage" who isn't going to continue to cooperate, and I'm not alone.

So hear us and hear us NOW- you will doom this party and this nation if you continue to push these nutty social conservatives onto the electorate. We have compromised enough- now it's your turn.

79 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:06:48am

I wish that Michael Steele would read LGF.

80 Tigger2005  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:06:57am

re: #61 nyc redneck

where is a strong conservative candidate w/ out the retrograde thinking..

We could dig up Barry Goldwater & Ronald Reagan. I hear they're doing amazing things with cloning these days ...

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:07:00am

re: #17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, colonel...you're right. That was uncalled for.

82 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:07:09am

Governor Jindal, some citizens of Louisiana think that Jews are Satan's spawn, while others think that Jews are greedy bastards. Isn't this another controversy that should be taught in schools?

83 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:07:33am

Gov J! We're so glad to meet you. Considering the economic debacle we're having, we thought we'd lose the White House in 2012. Don't disappoint us.

84 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:07:52am

re: #77 Teacake!

I'm saying that no one in New Orleans has heard about this. Isn't in the paper or on talk radio. You know more about it than we do.

All of his radio interviews have always been on topics about infrastructure problems and what he's doing. He keeps us informed on certain topics that others ask him about. There just isn't any mention of this and if not for these articles, I'd know nothing about it here in the very state of L.

Sir, your statements would prove Charles right when he headlines many of these threats with the word STEALTH. By your admission, Mr. Jindal DOES NOT want the people of LA to know what he is doing. This makes his legislation that much more dangerous.

85 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:08:27am

re: #77 Teacake!

I'm saying that no one in New Orleans has heard about this. Isn't in the paper or on talk radio. You know more about it than we do.

All of his radio interviews have always been on topics about infrastructure problems and what he's doing. He keeps us informed on certain topics that others ask him about. There just isn't any mention of this and if not for these articles, I'd know nothing about it here in the very state of L.

Surely those in New Orleans' tourism bureau and those in city finance administration heard about this issue when that major convention of scientists pulled out of plans to meet there in 2011.

86 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:08:41am

re: #82 itellu3times

Governor Jindal, some citizens of Louisiana think that Jews are Satan's spawn, while others think that Jews are greedy bastards. Isn't this another controversy that should be taught in schools?

There is a giant bee looking for just that kind of work I hear.
//

87 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:08:55am

re: #75 FightingBack

Gov J, Welcome! Have you met Gov Huckabee? You could do the same for the Reps.

Speaking of similarities between Huckabee and Jindal, they are both in covenant marriages.

88 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:09:05am

As far as exorcism goes, I'd like to find who preforms those actually! I'm a Jewish gal but there is serious bad energy in the neighborhood I live in and I'm looking for anyone who could help sweep that shit into the river! lol Priest, shaman, witch, voodoo, anything would be okay with me.

89 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:09:24am

DI Creationist Joke:

Q: What is the difference between a cow and a monkey?

A: Only atheists ask such questions.

90 albusteve  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:09:37am

re: #79 MandyManners

I wish that Michael Steele would read LGF.

if he doesn't somebody reads it for him...I'd bet a dollar on it

91 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:09:38am

Gov J: When you reply to the POTUS, try to describe some quirky spiritualist technique the USA can use to exorcise him. That'll play big.

92 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:09:51am

re: #84 Jetpilot1101

After this month, we should be completely fed up with the Stealth of politicians.

93 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:09:54am

I don't think it much matters who is elected President in 2012 if we don't make some inroads in Congress. With the current membership, including the RINOs who often vote across the isle, it would be difficult to get anything accomplished. Of course, if the economy continues to tank, we should make some headway.

94 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:10:08am

re: #77 Teacake!

I fail to see how you properly addressed Charles' question. Lack of msm coverage doesn't negate the legislation.

95 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:10:13am

re: #87 pink freud

Speaking of similarities between Huckabee and Jindal, they are both in covenant marriages.

Fine by me as long as they don't try to force others into them.

96 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:10:25am

re: #3 funky chicken

Yeah. My question was in part a response to one of the more ignorant moonbat questions already posted there, and of course, the moderator moderated it into the ether.
But Gregory is just not the right caliber** for MTP. To be snarky, he can't even dress the part... I want to get Naomi Wolf, or someone, on his case to show him some suits and ties that an alpha male might consider.
/only half sarc.. his ties are teh hideousness/
**or calibre, if you're a picky Brit.

97 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:10:30am

re: #90 albusteve

if he doesn't somebody reads it for him...I'd bet a dollar on it

Oh, I hope so. I sincerely do.

98 rw in san diego  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:10:47am

That exorcism information was unnerving, to say the least. I have serious reservations concerning Jindal at this point.

99 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:10:53am

re: #87 pink freud

Speaking of similarities between Huckabee and Jindal, they are both in covenant marriages.

What's a covenant marriage?

100 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:11:26am

re: #98 rw in san diego

If Jindal imagines he can cure cancer, he's in the wrong job.

101 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:11:32am

re: #42 Teacake!

Thing is about Louisiana is that just keeping kids in school is a huge problem. I think at this point, this is being made a bigger issue than it actually is. No one here is even talking about this. We have THE worst schools in all of the US.

Well, they most certainly now have the chance to get even worse, much worse, than before Jindal signed the Disco Institute crafted stealth creationism bill into law.

102 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:11:32am

re: #78 Sharmuta

I'm with you to. I refuse to let religion dictate politics. It's unbiblical and unconstitutional.

re: #92 jaunte

Agreed. ODS (Obama Disillusionment Syndrome) is setting in mighty quick.

103 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:11:37am

DI Creationist Joke:

Knock knock.

Who's there?

God.

God who?

A-haa! I have proven you are an atheist!

104 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:11:52am

Gov J: The Reps could make some headway, considering the economy. Do you have anything weird you could say to change this?

105 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:11:59am

re: #98 rw in san diego

That exorcism information was unnerving, to say the least. I have serious reservations concerning Jindal at this point.

Racist!

106 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:12:04am
Sir, your statements would prove Charles right when he headlines many of these threats with the word STEALTH. By your admission, Mr. Jindal DOES NOT want the people of LA to know what he is doing. This makes his legislation that much more dangerous.

I'm a gal for one... and its not so stealth if its so easily known about apparently. THe people here in Louisiana have so many other problems going on as well as so many corrupt politicians that they focus on that those who could bring this to the attention of others, are just not doing so. Apparently it isn't a secret, its just not being paid attention to.

107 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:12:08am

re: #93 TradeBait

make that "aisle". Sheesh ;oP

108 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:12:25am

re: #96 tradewind

Yeah. My question was in part a response to one of the more ignorant moonbat questions already posted there, and of course, the moderator moderated it into the ether.
But Gregory is just not the right caliber** for MTP. To be snarky, he can't even dress the part... I want to get Naomi Wolf, or someone, on his case to show him some suits and ties that an alpha male might consider.
/only half sarc.. his ties are teh hideousness/
**or calibre, if you're a picky Brit.

IIRC, Wolf advised Gore to wear brown suits. Brown suits do not belong on alpha males.

109 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:12:32am

re: #99 wrenchwench

In some parts of the United States, a covenant marriage is a legally distinct kind of marriage, in which the marrying couple agree to obtain pre-marital counseling and accept more limited grounds for divorce. The movement to create covenant marriage as a legal category, largely driven by evangelical Christians, is a cultural and political response to the ready availability of no-fault divorce and the United States' high divorce rate.

110 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:12:55am

re: #93 TradeBait

I don't think it much matters who is elected President in 2012 if we don't make some inroads in Congress. With the current membership, including the RINOs who often vote across the isle, it would be difficult to get anything accomplished. Of course, if the economy continues to tank, we should make some headway.

And it's most interesting that we are talking about Jindal and his creationism bill and you're talking about, well, nothing we are talking about.

So, I agree with your basic premise above about elections in general. Now, to specifics.

Do you think creationism should be talk, any form of it, in science class in publicly funded schools?

Yes or no will suffice.

111 albusteve  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:13:00am

re: #98 rw in san diego

That exorcism information was unnerving, to say the least. I have serious reservations concerning Jindal at this point.

he's dangerously close to to crackpot status imo...good looking tho and that will count for plenty

112 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:13:32am

Gov J: There are fiscal conservatives and patriotic Americans sitting at home, hoping that you have something to say to them. What's it like to be at an exorcism?

113 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:13:55am

Biology Joke :

Q: How can you tell the difference between boy chromosomes and girl chromosomes?

A: Pull down their genes!

Biology Joke, Louisiana Public School Version :

Q: How can you tell the difference between boy chromosomes and girl chromosomes?

A: What the hell is a chromosome?

114 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:14:00am

re: #15 Shug

What politicians do in their free time does matter, if it's batshit crazy

How much time does he spend doing amateur exorcisms? I don't really care if he had a crazy night 14 years ago. In fact, "amateur exorcism" sounds about like the average frat hazing or for that matter a teenage girls' slumber party. What matters more is how he views it all now.

115 unclassifiable  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:14:10am

IMHO,

I don't think Jindal nor Palin will make it to 2012 because the MSM has already ginned up every possible negative aspect of their, politics, personality, and private life.

Frankly the GOP will need there own Obama. Someone who comes from "out of nowhere" (which is actually utter crap) to to be the party nominee.

I hear some "squeaks" about Eric Cantor and Mike Pence but I believe both of these gentlemen are in the "return to God camp".

There is nothing wrong with "returning to God" as a personal choice if that is what it takes to get YOUR life turned around. But as a governing policy it is not compatible with constitutional foundations of this country.

116 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:14:10am

re: #106 Teacake!

I'm a gal for one... and its not so stealth if its so easily known about apparently. THe people here in Louisiana have so many other problems going on as well as so many corrupt politicians that they focus on that those who could bring this to the attention of others, are just not doing so. Apparently it isn't a secret, its just not being paid attention to.

It's as if Katrina were a custom-made event to avert attention away from this (then) future legislation.

117 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:14:18am

re: #79 MandyManners

I wish that Michael Steele would read LGF.

Maybe he does.

But I'm becoming increasingly cynical about American politics. I think Steele's main job is to raise money, not to keep his finger on the pulse of the voters. The Republican and Democratic parties are businesses. They operate because wealthy people give them money. Not a $100 check here and there, but big, six- and seven-figure infusions. Wealthy people buy them meals, put them up in their homes, and fly them around in private jets to campaign appearances. They do this in exchange for being able to tell the politicians how to behave after they're elected.

I'm increasingly convinced that only extremism can open the pockets of big donors, Democrat or Republican. In fact, now that Obama has opened the pool of donors to non-Americans who wish to influence American politics, I'm not sure there's anything the GOP can do to raise enough cash.

118 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:14:24am

re: #100 jaunte

If Jindal imagines he can cure cancer, he's in the wrong job.

Like in the X-men movie, maybe he can cure it in the whole state at once, as governor. Maybe he can cure you, if you vote for him.

"Politics" in the new millienium. Change!

119 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:14:52am

Just saying...
Anyone who thinks that religion is really a huge factor in the American presidental vote didn't pay attention to this last one.
A member of a totally hateful church, with a sketchy religious background before that, educated for a time at an early age in a madrassa, with muslim relatives, won
I'm not lobbying for or against Jindal. Just pointing out a truth.

120 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:15:20am

Not a matter of MSN per say - local media has never brought this up. And its possible that people in Louisiana might not think its a problem? I don't have children so its not something I even would be aware of concerning what goes on in schools. None of the teachers I know, know anything about this either.

121 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:15:42am

re: #114 iLikeCandy

How much time does he spend doing amateur exorcisms? I don't really care if he had a crazy night 14 years ago. In fact, "amateur exorcism" sounds about like the average frat hazing or for that matter a teenage girls' slumber party. What matters more is how he views it all now.

Does he still believe it's a cure for cancer? If so, that pretty much sums up his attitude toward science.

122 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:15:45am

re: #72 kynna


... this exorcism ... does pretty much disqualify him for national office.

Why?

123 Afrocity  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:15:58am

Good Morning Lizards.
I just wanted to say that I am reading the Dick Morris book Fleeced. I love it.

124 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:10am

re: #106 Teacake!

I'm a gal for one... and its not so stealth if its so easily known about apparently. THe people here in Louisiana have so many other problems going on as well as so many corrupt politicians that they focus on that those who could bring this to the attention of others, are just not doing so. Apparently it isn't a secret, its just not being paid attention to.

My apologies ma'am. My point was, it's not being paid attention to because it is not being given the explanation time that other initiatives are given. I'm sure folks know about it but in order to grasp the significance and the implications of it, they need to do research. I still think, for something as major as slipping religion into science classes, the governor should be explaining it thoroughly and in prime time.

125 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:10am

re: #79 MandyManners

I wish that Michael Steele would read LGF.

how do you know he doesn't?

126 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:10am

re: #109 pink freud

Thanks for the link, pink!

127 Colonel Panik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:20am

When it comes to ethnic Louisiana Republicans, I prefer Ahn Joseph Cao.

A son of Vietnamese refugees who defeated Willam "Cash In The Fridge" Jefferson in a district that is largely black and democratic.

128 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:26am

re: #108 MandyManners

/That was the half sarc part of my disclaimer/
But Gregory's sartorial instincts are pathetic.

129 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:49am

re: #117 Last Mohican

Maybe he does.

But I'm becoming increasingly cynical about American politics. I think Steele's main job is to raise money, not to keep his finger on the pulse of the voters. The Republican and Democratic parties are businesses. They operate because wealthy people give them money. Not a $100 check here and there, but big, six- and seven-figure infusions. Wealthy people buy them meals, put them up in their homes, and fly them around in private jets to campaign appearances. They do this in exchange for being able to tell the politicians how to behave after they're elected.

I'm increasingly convinced that only extremism can open the pockets of big donors, Democrat or Republican. In fact, now that Obama has opened the pool of donors to non-Americans who wish to influence American politics, I'm not sure there's anything the GOP can do to raise enough cash.

I could be wrong but, wasn't it the thousands of small checks that filled CBBHO's pockets?

130 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:53am

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

And it's most interesting that we are talking about Jindal and his creationism bill and you're talking about, well, nothing we are talking about.

I was discussing it, Newton!


So, I agree with your basic premise above about elections in general. Now, to specifics.

Do you think creationism should be talk, any form of it, in science class in publicly funded schools?

Yes or no will suffice.

Depends on how you define creationism. Sorry, YES or NO didn't work for me.

131 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:57am

re: #119 tradewind

Just saying...
Anyone who thinks that religion is really a huge factor in the American presidental vote didn't pay attention to this last one.
A member of a totally hateful church, with a sketchy religious background before that, educated for a time at an early age in a madrassa, with muslim relatives, won
I'm not lobbying for or against Jindal. Just pointing out a truth.

Yeah, but he's a Commie. Nothing else matters. For Sarah, even her personal Right to Life position is too much.

132 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:16:59am

re: #119 tradewind

Just saying...
Anyone who thinks that religion is really a huge factor in the American presidental vote didn't pay attention to this last one.
A member of a totally hateful church, with a sketchy religious background before that, educated for a time at an early age in a madrassa, with muslim relatives, won
I'm not lobbying for or against Jindal. Just pointing out a truth.

Except Wright was buried and / or excused by the MFM. I've talked to a number of Obama voters who's response was "Wright, who?"

Jindal's religiosity will be front and center, his name will be linked with all this by the MFM.

133 Timbre  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:17:16am

re: #88 Teacake!

As far as exorcism goes, I'd like to find who preforms those actually! I'm a Jewish gal but there is serious bad energy in the neighborhood I live in and I'm looking for anyone who could help sweep that shit into the river! lol Priest, shaman, witch, voodoo, anything would be okay with me.

I have the perfect comeback for that sentiment, but it is So Wrong that all the sarc tags in the world wouldn't get me out of trouble. So I'll just say I wish you well.

134 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:17:20am

re: #106 Teacake!

I think ignorance on the part of the electorate is a politician's best friend, and with this attack on rationality through observing empirical data (otherwise known as the scientific method) it looks like Louisiana is in for quite a long run of politicians taking advantage of you.

135 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:17:30am

re: #119 tradewind

Just saying...
Anyone who thinks that religion is really a huge factor in the American presidental vote didn't pay attention to this last one.
A member of a totally hateful church, with a sketchy religious background before that, educated for a time at an early age in a madrassa, with muslim relatives, won
I'm not lobbying for or against Jindal. Just pointing out a truth.

CBBHO became a religious figure.

136 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:17:40am

re: #126 wrenchwench

You're welcome, wrench!

137 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:17:45am

re: #121 MandyManners

Does he still believe it's a cure for cancer? If so, that pretty much sums up his attitude toward science.

I don't know. As I said, it depends on how he views it all now. So let's find out before we condemn on the basis of this single loony night he had.

138 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:17:54am

Let's not forget about the legislative pay raise debacle. I don't see any suggested questions about that over at the Meet The Press blog.

His talents failed him — and exposed the perils of political equivocation — early in his administration when the state legislature voted to raise the pay of its members.

While campaigning, Jindal had said he would veto such a pay raise.

But he hesitated when confronted with an actual vote of the legislature, first saying he would allow it to take effect and then, amid public outcry, reversing himself.

Jindal clearly had little interest in incurring the wrath of either the state legislators, who had not had an increase in many years, or the voters — two constituencies he needs to keep satisfied to stay in office and climb higher.

139 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:18:02am

Local media isn't doing their job is all I'm saying. People here are mostly concerned about how fucked up insurance is, the coastal erosion, proper levees, corrupt politicians and crime. THere's a lot on the plate here that has peoples attention. Now this? No one really has heard about it and its due to local media I would say.

140 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:18:12am

re: #119 tradewind

Right- because the msm really covered 0bama's ties extensively. [insert eye-roll]

141 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:03am

re: #120 Teacake!

Not a matter of MSN per say - local media has never brought this up. And its possible that people in Louisiana might not think its a problem? I don't have children so its not something I even would be aware of concerning what goes on in schools. None of the teachers I know, know anything about this either.

It is incumbent upon all voters to know what's happening in the public school sytems because they are just that: public.

Teachers don't even know about this bill? Shame on them, doubly. This is in their front yard.

142 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:07am

Gov J can't win for us. Offer him his Fox show now. We need a handsome athlete. Anyone?

143 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:13am

re: #119 tradewind

Just saying...
Anyone who thinks that religion is really a huge factor in the American presidental vote didn't pay attention to this last one.
A member of a totally hateful church, with a sketchy religious background before that, educated for a time at an early age in a madrassa, with muslim relatives, won
I'm not lobbying for or against Jindal. Just pointing out a truth.

Well that's true. But only because the entire media establishment strictly censored Obama's past, in order to ensure that he was elected. They won't censor Jindal's past. In fact, they'll embellish it with even more outlandish stories, as they did with Sarah Palin. It's kind of hard to see how anyone will beat Obama with this kind of Stalin-esque manipulation of information going on. I'm glad that American journalism waited until after the dawning of the internet age to devolve to this level.

144 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:19am

re: #121 MandyManners

Does he still believe it's a cure for cancer? If so, that pretty much sums up his attitude toward science.

Do you apply that to people who believe in the power of prayer?

145 albusteve  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:32am

re: #132 jcm

the MSM will pick the candidates and likely even the winner...not an original thought, just a reminder

146 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:33am

re: #130 TradeBait

Depends on how you define creationism. Sorry, YES or NO didn't work for me.

I don't care, any way you define creationism (you know, some higher power had something to do with the universe and life), would you want that taught along side of evolution (or at some point) in science class in publicly funded schools.

Is not a little clearer.

147 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:50am

re: #125 Shug

how do you know he doesn't?

I didn't say that. I said I wish he does. That does not mean that I think he doesn't.

148 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:19:57am

re: #127 Colonel Panik

When it comes to ethnic Louisiana Republicans, I prefer Ahn Joseph Cao.

A son of Vietnamese refugees who defeated Willam "Cash In The Fridge" Jefferson in a district that is largely black and democratic.

"Cao has a diverse educational background and, in fact, almost became a Catholic priest. He graduated from Jersey Village High School in Houston. He then earned a bachelor's degree in physics at Baylor University in Waco, Texas, and became a Jesuit seminarian, which he remained for a period of six years. Cao received his master's degree in philosophy from Fordham University in New York City. In 2000, he completed his J.D. at Loyola University School of Law in New Orleans. While in law school he also taught undergraduate courses in philosophy at Loyola.

Cao sounds like quite a step up.

149 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:20:00am

re: #71 Thanos

Jindal also let an anti-gay discrimination policy lapse, and promoted further restrictions on stem cell research in LA. He's full bore Social Conservative, don't expect him to have great policies or understanding of any other issues.

Wow. I wasn't aware of the anti-gay angle, but I'm looking into it now. His association with extreme fundamentalists is deeper than I thought. His 'Louisiana Commission on Marriage and Family' is loaded with fundamentalists and creationists, including Tony Perkins and Gene Mills of the Family Research Council.

Tony Perkins:

In 2001, Perkins addressed the Council of Conservative Citizens (successor organization to the anti-integration White Citizens Council) - a known racist group with an agenda of white supremacy.

The Nation claims that in 1996, Perkins paid former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke $82,000 for use of his mailing list. At the time, Perkins was campaign manager for Louis E. "Woody" Jenkins, a Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate in Louisiana. The Federal Election Commission fined the Jenkins campaign $3,000 for attempting to hide the money paid to Duke. The Family Research Council says Blumenthal's claims about Perkins' connection to David Duke are false; FRC adds that Duke's "connection was not known to Mr. Perkins until 1999. Mr. Perkins profoundly opposes the racial views of Mr. Duke and was profoundly grieved to learn that Duke was a party to the company that had done work for the 1996 campaign."

150 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:20:29am

re: #137 iLikeCandy

I don't know. As I said, it depends on how he views it all now. So let's find out before we condemn on the basis of this single loony night he had.

The loony nights have continued, as the original article states

151 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:20:32am

re: #108 MandyManners
Forgot to add... depends on the alpha male. This one did okay...
[Link: hollywoodmegastore.com...]
[Link: burkeancanuck.blogspot.com...]

152 unclassifiable  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:20:34am

OT

Wants!

153 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:20:48am
Colonel Panik -
When it comes to ethnic Louisiana Republicans, I prefer Ahn Joseph Cao.

A son of Vietnamese refugees who defeated Willam "Cash In The Fridge" Jefferson in a district that is largely black and democratic.

Now that is being discussed on local radio and the papers as a group of black ministers want him recalled because they claim not voting for the stimulus package is racist on Cao's part.

154 kynna  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:20:49am

re: #115 unclassifiable

IMHO,

I don't think Jindal nor Palin will make it to 2012 because the MSM has already ginned up every possible negative aspect of their, politics, personality, and private life.

As Sharmuta has speculated, I suspect the MSM is actually very pro-Jindal. It's Sarah Palin they won't allow to get a foothold. And it's worked very well, since many people won't even consider her even after four more years of national attention and seasoning. Because of her beliefs. Not because she ever forced them on everyone, but because she has them.

Jindal, on the other hand, is another Huckabee, and the MSM will love to make him the Republican front runner. Watch for a lot of dem crossover in primaries to give us just this result.

155 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:21:01am

re: #142 FightingBack

Gov J can't win for us. Offer him his Fox show now. We need a handsome athlete. Anyone?

I like Jon Huntsman, Governor of Utah. I'd like to learn more about him, but I like what I've heard so far. Seems like a reasonable guy.

156 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:21:12am

re: #137 iLikeCandy

I don't know. As I said, it depends on how he views it all now. So let's find out before we condemn on the basis of this single loony night he had.

To me, this is not as big an issue as his signing that bill into law.

157 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:21:55am

re: #129 MandyManners

I could be wrong but, wasn't it the thousands of small checks that filled CBBHO's pockets?

No, I think it was mostly big donors. And then there are the donations that aren't exactly donations, like Oprah's production company producing that creepy "Obama Youth Singing for Obama" video. And wealthy people flying him around in their jets, producing commercials for him and so on. Although I must say that the reports of illegal foreign donations that I've seen were only small amounts.

158 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:07am

re: #139 Teacake!

Local media isn't doing their job is all I'm saying. People here are mostly concerned about how fucked up insurance is, the coastal erosion, proper levees, corrupt politicians and crime. THere's a lot on the plate here that has peoples attention. Now this? No one really has heard about it and its due to local media I would say.

Who owns the local media?

159 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:30am

re: #149 Charles

Wow- jindal has some really unsavory connections.

160 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:31am

So the one Night of the Exorcism doesn't count. We'll forgive. What about LA science education?

161 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:38am

re: #106 Teacake!

I'm a gal for one... and its not so stealth if its so easily known about apparently. THe people here in Louisiana have so many other problems going on as well as so many corrupt politicians that they focus on that those who could bring this to the attention of others, are just not doing so. Apparently it isn't a secret, its just not being paid attention to.

So, just like Obama, Jindal is taking advantage of the crisis situation and his cult popularity to push his unsavory agenda through, ayy?

162 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:38am

re: #138 Lynn B.

Sorry. I missed on the quote function. Trying again ...

His talents failed him — and exposed the perils of political equivocation — early in his administration when the state legislature voted to raise the pay of its members.

While campaigning, Jindal had said he would veto such a pay raise.

But he hesitated when confronted with an actual vote of the legislature, first saying he would allow it to take effect and then, amid public outcry, reversing himself.

Jindal clearly had little interest in incurring the wrath of either the state legislators, who had not had an increase in many years, or the voters — two constituencies he needs to keep satisfied to stay in office and climb higher.

link

163 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:41am

re: #140 Sharmuta

The ' g-d America ' loop played pretty continuously. Anyone who really thought about his religious ties was well aware of that one.
I agree that they did not do the rectal exam on BHO that a Republican would endure, but the stuff was out there.

164 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:44am

re: #144 iLikeCandy

Do you apply that to people who believe in the power of prayer?

No, I don't.

165 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:46am

re: #153 Teacake!

Now that is being discussed on local radio and the papers as a group of black ministers want him recalled because they claim not voting for the stimulus package is racist on Cao's part.

I like him better already. Screw the porkulus!

166 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:23:13am

re: #156 MandyManners

To me, this is not as big an issue as his signing that bill into law.

I agree. I use to believe in UFO's but now I know they are just angels. But this bill, and some of the other appointment Jindal has made, is a major problem.

167 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:23:25am

re: #150 Shug

The loony nights have continued, as the original article states

You mean the "original article" written in 1994? I've had a hard time finding that online. Do you have a link?

168 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:24:02am

re: #163 tradewind

You also have to keep in mind, the press won't play fair with any republican candidate.

169 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:24:19am

re: #167 iLikeCandy

You mean the "original article" written in 1994? I've had a hard time finding that online. Do you have a link?

oh for f-___'s sake, the article linked by Charles right smack above

170 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:24:34am

re: #149 Charles

This stuff goes pretty deep. Since the Reagan years, many of these people and groups have had time to incubate and try to take over the GOP.

171 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:25:19am

re: #120 Teacake!

Not a matter of MSN per say - local media has never brought this up. And its possible that people in Louisiana might not think its a problem? I don't have children so its not something I even would be aware of concerning what goes on in schools. None of the teachers I know, know anything about this either.

That's pathetic.

And I don't have children either, but it's not only something I'm aware of, it's something I'm very concerned about.

I also don't live in LA, but I do live an hour or so away from Dover PA

172 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:25:19am

re: #157 Last Mohican

No, I think it was mostly big donors. And then there are the donations that aren't exactly donations, like Oprah's production company producing that creepy "Obama Youth Singing for Obama" video. And wealthy people flying him around in their jets, producing commercials for him and so on. Although I must say that the reports of illegal foreign donations that I've seen were only small amounts.

Except that there were all sorts of shenanigans going on with debit cards being used at his web site to accept donations that were never verified with an address, as they should have been!

173 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:25:22am

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

Well, at least you didn't restrict me to a YES or NO answer this time. Thank you! I don't want to see religion taught in schools. That opens a whole can of worms concerning which religions are taught and which are excluded. All Americans have the basic right of religious freedom, which should exist outside the classroom, in my opinion

I would not be opposed, in fact I would like to see, admission by science that the origin of the universe and the origin of life on earth are concepts which have not been settled scientifically. That's basic truth, I think, which doesn't by itself impose religion in the classroom.

174 Colonel Panik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:25:40am

re: #155 Sharmuta

I like Jon Huntsman, Governor of Utah. I'd like to learn more about him, but I like what I've heard so far. Seems like a reasonable guy.

I spend a lot of time in Utah on business and I like Huntsman as well, but he will probably get the "he's a Mormon!" reaction that doomed Romney.

175 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:25:48am

re: #158 MandyManners

Who owns the local media?

The Times-Picayune is part of Advance Publications.
[Link: www.cjr.org...]
[Link: www.cjr.org...]

176 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:26:12am

re: #161 Salamantis

So, just like Obama, Jindal is taking advantage of the crisis situation and his cult popularity to push his unsavory agenda through, ayy?

I think a major difference is that no one created Katrina and the horrific aftermath as opposed to the current economic situation.

177 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:26:13am

re: #156 MandyManners

To me, this is not as big an issue as his signing that bill into law.

Same here. The exorcism thing is a trivial issue to me.

178 chicago blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:26:27am

re: #143 Last Mohican
I think you're right. They really let Palin have it for that visiting priest protecting her from witchcraft, didn't they? And that was a visitor praying. Whether you agree or not, unless he says something offensive, isn't it rudepoor diplomacy to interrupt your guest?

179 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:27:20am

re: #171 Lynn B.

Well, don't expect "Local Media" to help you with the details. It's more like "Local Political House Organs"

180 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:27:43am

re: #170 MandyManners

Did it really start during the Regan era or is the Regan era the last time this brand of social conservatism was relevant? I suspect it was around long before Regan but I don't really know.

181 chicago blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:27:48am

re: #178 chicago blonde

re: #178 chicago blonde

Ie, isn't it rude/poor diplomacy to interrupt your guest?

PIMF
/Hands still frozen from shoveling global warming

182 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:28:07am

re: #173 TradeBait

I would not be opposed, in fact I would like to see, admission by science that the origin of the universe and the origin of life on earth are concepts which have not been settled scientifically.

Not a single scientist claims that the origin of life or the universe are "settled."

Not one.

183 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:28:37am

re: #175 jaunte

The Times-Picayune is part of Advance Publications.
[Link: www.cjr.org...]
[Link: www.cjr.org...]

Those are pretty extensive holdings.

184 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:28:37am

re: #174 Colonel Panik

I spend a lot of time in Utah on business and I like Huntsman as well, but he will probably get the "he's a Mormon!" reaction that doomed Romney.

and of course the msm covered for O's 20 plus yr. long close relationship to an outright racist anti-american preacher and his hate church.
i 'm hoping the msm is busy gasping for their last breath in the next election.

185 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:29:19am

Jindal's not the candidate we need- period.

We need a fiscal conservative, defense hawk, and someone who has some moderation on social issues such as not pushing religion into science classes.

So far, I like Jon Huntsman

186 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:29:38am

re: #177 iLikeCandy

Same here. The exorcism thing is a trivial issue to me.

I don't think it's "trivial" but, I don't think it's of equal import to the law unless he still believes it and it colors his public duties.

187 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:30:02am

re: #130 TradeBait

Depends on how you define creationism. Sorry, YES or NO didn't work for me.

NO form of creationism whatsoever belongs in public high school science class, because ALL of them invoke the untestable, extra-empirical, metaphysical, and/or transcendental, NONE of which resides with the realm of empirical science.

188 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:30:15am

re: #177 iLikeCandy

Same here. The exorcism thing is a trivial issue to me.

It may be trivial to you, but if he's going to run for President I guarantee it won't be a trivial issue then.

189 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:30:19am

re: #174 Colonel Panik

I spend a lot of time in Utah on business and I like Huntsman as well, but he will probably get the "he's a Mormon!" reaction that doomed Romney.

That's why I'm not willing to be a good little "hostage" anymore.

190 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:30:26am

re: #174 Colonel Panik

I spend a lot of time in Utah on business and I like Huntsman as well, but he will probably get the "he's a Mormon!" reaction that doomed Romney.

Romney was doomed in the last election, four years from now, after the big 0 has totally destroyed our economy, people will flock to him as the only solution. BTW, does anybody remember who the 0 said he would have help him re; the economy in one of the demates with McCain? I don't think it was the losers he has now. Did the 0 lie? I.m Shocked!
///////////////////////////////////////

191 tradewind  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:30:40am

re: #175 jaunte

I lived in NoLa for a few years a while ago, and Louisiana is a state unlike any other re their politics and how their politicians operate, both officially and tacitly. You could compare them to Chicago, but that wouldn't be accurate. Louisiana understands that their politicians are corrupt, but they don't equate that to political corruption...c'est la vie. You have to go back to the Kingfish to understand it.

192 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:30:55am

re: #180 Killgore Trout

Did it really start during the Regan era or is the Regan era the last time this brand of social conservatism was relevant? I suspect it was around long before Regan but I don't really know.

I was coming out of Communism during the middle of the Reagan Administration and to my recollection, these groups were young but, they packed a powerful punch.

I'm gonna' Google the FRC. bbiab

193 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:30:56am

re: #169 Shug

oh for f-___'s sake, the article linked by Charles right smack above

Can't find a word about the loony nights continuing. The outside interest continues, but not the loony nights.

194 Summer Seale  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:31:29am

re: #182 Charles

Not a single scientist claims that the origin of life or the universe are "settled."

Not one.

It's amazing to me that people keep making these assumptions and filling them in with the "God Gap" as the only possible explanation.

"We don't know? Must be God. Must be in the Bible."

What kind of world do these people think we would live in if this was a satisfactory explanation for everything? It seriously astounds me. We'd still be curing diseases with exorcisms.

195 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:31:30am

re: #173 TradeBait

Well, at least you didn't restrict me to a YES or NO answer this time. Thank you! I don't want to see religion taught in schools. That opens a whole can of worms concerning which religions are taught and which are excluded. All Americans have the basic right of religious freedom, which should exist outside the classroom, in my opinion

I would not be opposed, in fact I would like to see, admission by science that the origin of the universe and the origin of life on earth are concepts which have not been settled scientifically. That's basic truth, I think, which doesn't by itself impose religion in the classroom.

This discussion, creationism, has nothing to do with the origins of the universe. The origins, creation, beginning, what ever, of the universe is a totally different issue than creationism.

The "origin of life on earth are concepts which have not been settled scientifically" is incorrect. Not every detail has been worked out, and may never be, at least in our lifetimes. But the empirical and repeatable evidence of life evolving, is a proven theory.

196 Last Mohican  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:31:35am

re: #148 jaunte

Cao sounds like quite a step up.

So far, I like him too. But there's no substance in presidential politics anymore. I wonder if the GOP's best shot might be an energetic, physically attractive black person who can subvert the powerfully inspirational rhetorical style of the Black Church into powerfully misleading bullshit even better than Obama did.

197 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:31:37am

re: #193 iLikeCandy

Can't find a word about the loony nights continuing. The outside interest continues, but not the loony nights.

that's unfortunate for you

198 lawhawk  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:31:49am

re: #185 Sharmuta

Jindal's not the candidate we need- period.

We need a fiscal conservative, defense hawk, and someone who has some moderation on social issues such as not pushing religion into science classes.

So far, I like Jon Huntsman

Let's see what he does with the current Utah budget on the fiscal side. It's a tough situation, and while they just implemented a flat income tax, they may be contemplating all other kinds of tax hikes or cutting rebates to balance their budget. I don't know enough about his social policies to comment,

199 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:31:59am

OT...Pretty funny back and forth with a bill collector.

200 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:32:16am

re: #188 Charles

It may be trivial to you, but if he's going to run for President I guarantee it won't be a trivial issue then.

I totally agree.

201 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:32:24am

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

202 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:32:37am

re: #192 MandyManners

I was coming out of Communism during the middle of the Reagan Administration and to my recollection, these groups were young but, they packed a powerful punch.

I'm gonna' Google the FRC. bbiab

A quick peak at Wiki shows that Dobson founded it in 1981 and incorporated it two years later.

203 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:32:44am

There are a few local talk radio shows here and they select the topics they want to discuss. No one is making them ignore this. They aren't doing their own research - people voted for him because he is a dedicated man, honest and cares about Louisiana. People over look things when they are desperate and if they don't know about other things, its not like he is keeping this a big secret, people here just don't seem to care much. What can I say?

204 unclassifiable  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:33:12am

re: #143 Last Mohican

The way the press will be overwhelmed will be with a loss of credibility.

It is already happening in the print media of course but the nail in the coffin (and I take no joy saying this) is economic malaise -- which we are just beginning to feel the effects.

The remaining vibrant sectors of the press have placed all of their worth on Obama and the Democratic Congress. This non-stimulus plan will fail and the rest of the MSM along with it.

I don't know where we will get our news but there may be a lot more citizen reporters in the future.

205 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:33:14am

re: #198 lawhawk

He's rejected ID for one, and isn't opposed to civil unions.

206 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:33:42am

re: #201 Ziggy

If demons eat my homework, do I get a do-over instead of a zero on the assignment?

207 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:03am

re: #201 Ziggy

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

Who's g-d. Allah, one of the Hindu g-d's, the American-Indian has it's creation stories, who's creation story do we discuss? All of them?

208 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:04am

re: #191 tradewind

I lived in NoLa for a few years a while ago, and Louisiana is a state unlike any other re their politics and how their politicians operate, both officially and tacitly. You could compare them to Chicago, but that wouldn't be accurate. Louisiana understands that their politicians are corrupt, but they don't equate that to political corruption...c'est la vie. You have to go back to the Kingfish to understand it.

Well, the legal system is based on the Napoleanic Code.

209 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:13am

re: #197 Shug

that's unfortunate for you

Just show me where it says the loony nights have continued. It's probably moot since the left will pick this up and run it past the goal posts regardless of how many loony nights there have been, but I'd appreciate a clear conversation here.

210 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:23am

re: #201 Ziggy

As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions.

Name one.

211 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:31am

re: #188 Charles

It may be trivial to you, but if he's going to run for President I guarantee it won't be a trivial issue then.

No doubt about it.

212 Bob Dillon  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:34am

re: #88 Teacake!

As far as exorcism goes, I'd like to find who preforms those actually! I'm a Jewish gal but there is serious bad energy in the neighborhood I live in and I'm looking for anyone who could help sweep that shit into the river! lol Priest, shaman, witch, voodoo, anything would be okay with me.

Uh, how about sending an invitation to your Gov?

213 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:39am

re: #182 Charles

Not a single scientist claims that the origin of life or the universe are "settled."

Not one.

Well, Charles, you and I must be sourcing different material, or at least interpreting it differently. Every scientific text I've read and every documentary I view that touches on the question infers that life arose on earth spontaneously. There is no scientific basis for that assumption. It's not a question of religion in my view, more a question of what we know about the material world and what we do not know.

214 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:34:57am

re: #201 Ziggy

Look up the meaning of "theory" in scientific terms.

215 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:35:04am

re: #201 Ziggy

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

In SCIENCE class? A "discussion" of whether demons are real and exorcisms really work?

No. They should not.

216 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:35:09am

re: #203 Teacake!

There are a few local talk radio shows here and they select the topics they want to discuss. No one is making them ignore this. They aren't doing their own research - people voted for him because he is a dedicated man, honest and cares about Louisiana. People over look things when they are desperate and if they don't know about other things, its not like he is keeping this a big secret, people here just don't seem to care much. What can I say?

Well, we care. And maybe if you call those talk shows and start mentioning this, some more people in LA. will care.

Do you care?

217 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:35:12am

re: #206 jaunte

If demons eat my homework, do I get a do-over instead of a zero on the assignment?

It depends, are you a public school student or catholic school student?

218 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:35:52am

re: #210 Charles

Missing Link?

219 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:36:13am

re: #201 Ziggy

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

Oh, brother. Promise me you won't jump out the window since gravity is only a theory.

220 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:36:26am

re: #217 Ziggy

It depends, are you a public school student or catholic school student?

Catholic schools do not teach such nonsense!

221 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:36:31am

re: #217 Ziggy

It depends, are you a public school student or catholic school student?

Ziggy. All of these creationism discussions have been about PUBLIC SCHOOL and you should know that.

222 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:36:34am

I'll just throw this out there for many of y'all who are not from Louisiana or the Gulf Coast. Unless there has been a sea change in the mentality of te Louisiana electorate in the 20 years since I left (unlikely--I still read the local news and speak with my family) the vast majority of the Louisiana voters simply do not care about this sort of stuff. Their response to such revelations would be , "At least he hasn't been indicted". Seriously, people voted for the crooked Edwin Edwards over the honest-but boring-- Dave Treen because Edwards was a known quantity while they feared Treen would be worse.

Is Bobby Jindal going to re-introduce the auto de fe ? "No one expects that" (and yes, someone would Torquemada out of it). Most of the folks in my native state would be perfectly happy with him reforming how the state does business.

Does he really believe in the Creationist viewpoint. I do not know. He is a politician, though. He may have backed the bill as a return favor for the support he got from certain groups. But he may have backed it knowing that one day it would never pass a constitutional challenge; he did it only to keep his end of a political bargain. I do no know the specifics--this is surmise on my part. But such an arrangement would not be improbable.

Just keep in mind that Southerners, traditionally, like their politicians to have a religious streak--and to be just a little nuts. Jindal sounds like he fits that bill. It's the national press and the GOP that are pulling him into the national spotlight, where he'll fare poorly.

223 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:36:41am

re: #214 Sharmuta

Look up the meaning of "theory" in scientific terms.

I have a hypothesis on the meaning of theory.
/////

224 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:36:43am

Oh brother.

225 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:37:14am

re: #194 Summer

It's amazing to me that people keep making these assumptions and filling them in with the "God Gap" as the only possible explanation.

"We don't know? Must be God. Must be in the Bible."

What kind of world do these people think we would live in if this was a satisfactory explanation for everything? It seriously astounds me. We'd still be curing diseases with exorcisms.

If they can't get something as simple as what I posted in re: #14 jcm, how can they possibly understand the Biblical separation of knowledge and spirituality?

226 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:37:29am

re: #213 TradeBait

Well, Charles, you and I must be sourcing different material, or at least interpreting it differently. Every scientific text I've read and every documentary I view that touches on the question infers that life arose on earth spontaneously. There is no scientific basis for that assumption. It's not a question of religion in my view, more a question of what we know about the material world and what we do not know.

Please name one scientist who claims that the origin of life has been "settled scientifically."

227 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:37:35am

re: #218 Ziggy

Missing Link?

Are you it?

228 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:37:39am

re: #203 Teacake!

There are a few local talk radio shows here and they select the topics they want to discuss. No one is making them ignore this. They aren't doing their own research - people voted for him because he is a dedicated man, honest and cares about Louisiana. People over look things when they are desperate and if they don't know about other things, its not like he is keeping this a big secret, people here just don't seem to care much. What can I say?

Will they care when Susie and Johnny come home from school with an assignment to read the Koran's version of creationism?

229 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:37:52am

re: #222 calcajun

Just keep in mind that Southerners, traditionally, like their politicians to have a religious streak--and to be just a little nuts.

And their writers too, IIRC

230 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:38:01am

re: #224 Sharmuta

Oh brother.

Gaze Ziggy or ding him down. It's being obtuse for the fun of it, not becuase it has any sort of critical thinking skills. It's already proven that in about 8 comments.

231 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:38:10am

Oh, just got the link to the crazy article. Reading it now.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

232 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:38:10am

re: #227 Shug

LMAO!

233 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:38:35am

re: #218 Ziggy

Missing Link?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

234 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:38:38am

Crum, wrong link

[Link: www.newoxfordreview.org...]

235 lawhawk  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:38:47am

Hmmm.. a scientific theory that has questions? That's the point. Scientists are supposed to question theories to refine them or discard them for ones that better fit the hypothesis. Theory of evolution has evolved as new facts emerge and theories are refined. You can't do that with ID.

236 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:38:54am

re: #156 MandyManners

To me, this is not as big an issue as his signing that bill into law.

Yeah; signing that Disco Intitute crafted stealth creationism in public schools bill into law was the absolute, permanent, irretrieveably deal-breaking, kiss of political death for me. Jindal will NEVER receive my vote. For ANY office.

237 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:09am

re: #218 Ziggy

Bwahahaha!

238 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:15am

re: #222 calcajun

It's the national press and the GOP that are pulling him into the national spotlight, where he'll fare poorly.

We know the national press has the motive of propping up a vulnerable R candidate until they can take him down, but what is the GOP thinking?

239 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:16am

re: #215 Lynn B.

In SCIENCE class? A "discussion" of whether demons are real and exorcisms really work?

No. They should not.

I'm not suggesting demons and exorcisms be discussed in class, just the evolution aspect of my post. I would never stand for that in my kids science class. I'm not a creationist at all, I just think there is a lot of unexplained things in this world and I'm not sure that certain ideas should be off the table for discussion.

240 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:20am

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

Ziggy. All of these creationism discussions have been about PUBLIC SCHOOL and you should know that.

I love the smell of burning straw-men in the morning.

241 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:51am

Oh, I have to pay to read the whole article. Never mind.

242 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:56am

re: #237 Killgore Trout

Bwahahaha!

Yes. Ziggy asks about the missing link, and lo and behold, he appears for us :)

243 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:58am

re: #201 Ziggy

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

That was the premise upon which this legislation was sold to the people of Louisiana. In reality, it was a smokescreen for the open door through which the Discovery Institute gained it's first legislative foothold.

244 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:40:17am

re: #220 Sharmuta

Catholic schools do not teach such nonsense!

Being a product of the Society of Jesus from grades 1 through 12 and through law school, I can safely say--no, they do not teach that. Science was in the science class--taught be a very tough old Jesuit--and theology was taught several doors down--by lay people (always thought that was odd).

245 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:40:22am

re: #239 Ziggy

I'm not suggesting demons and exorcisms be discussed in class, just the evolution aspect of my post. I would never stand for that in my kids science class. I'm not a creationist at all, I just think there is a lot of unexplained things in this world and I'm not sure that certain ideas should be off the table for discussion.

And real science keeps looking for the answers to those questions. Creationism/ID just shrugs and says, "God did it".

246 burntjohn  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:40:41am

Creationism like global warming is filled with dogma and junk science.
There are all ready signs of a merger of the two.
BEWARE!

247 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:40:57am

re: #241 iLikeCandy

Oh, I have to pay to read the whole article. Never mind.

The video I posted has all the relevant excerpts from the article.

248 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:07am

re: #201 Ziggy

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

You are using the common definition of theory, not the scientific one.

I routinely pray for health and healing. I believe they are effective, but do not know they work. I take it on faith, they work. And while I pray for health, I get my butt down to the doctor for the latest thing science has to offer.

God and evolution are compatible. But the are completely different subjects. God relies on FAITH, science relies on KNOWLEDGE!

249 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:09am

Global warming!

250 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:12am

re: #214 Sharmuta

Look up the meaning of "theory" in scientific terms.

[Link: dictionary.reference.com...]

251 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:21am

re: #236 Salamantis

Yeah; signing that Disco Intitute crafted stealth creationism in public schools bill into law was the absolute, permanent, irretrieveably deal-breaking, kiss of political death for me. Jindal will NEVER receive my vote. For ANY office.

He will if someone brings Stalin back to life to run for POTUS but, that's the only circumstance I can imagine.

252 twincitiesgirl  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:27am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I've commented and posted links in the past about Christian Identity groups (also know as covenant groups), and just as a reminder, you have to really be careful, because you will find Christian Identity popping up in places you would never expect, or at least never realize.

There are a lot of isolated little congregations of "Christians" who follow this doctrine, from the benign (Christians are the real Jews, but God will save the Jews in time) to dangerous (race wars against Jews, Blacks, Catholics, basically anyone not of the New Covenant)

It will also be found under the rubric Israel ism (orAnglo-Israel ism)
Even Joseph Smith was engrossed in the subject, reading a number of books on the concepts. Info

All in all, it's bigger than you would imagine, and it stinks. Wiki

How does all of this tie in with Replacement Theology, which I know next to nothing about. I first heard the term in reference to President Bush. He believes in it and it's the reason he has no problems with dividing Israel.

It will be interesting to see if Jindal is asked about some of his bizarre beliefs. If not, then you know we are being set up for another msm picked Republican candidate in the 2012 elections.

Over my dead lizard body....

253 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:35am

re: #213 TradeBait


Every scientific text I've read and every documentary I view that touches on the question infers that life arose on earth spontaneously


You clearly haven't read the material yourself. You are taking some preachers word for what scientists believe. They are lying to you.

254 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:58am

re: #250 Ziggy

[Link: dictionary.reference.com...]

Good for you! Now.... did you read it?

255 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:41:58am

re: #238 jaunte

We know the national press has the motive of propping up a vulnerable R candidate until they can take him down, but what is the GOP thinking?

Looking for a non-white candidate.

256 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:42:17am

re: #239 Ziggy

I'm not suggesting demons and exorcisms be discussed in class, just the evolution aspect of my post. I would never stand for that in my kids science class. I'm not a creationist at all, I just think there is a lot of unexplained things in this world and I'm not sure that certain ideas should be off the table for discussion.

Are you prepared for CAIR to get into the game and demand that the Koran be discussed in science class?

257 nyc redneck  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:42:53am

re: #190 VegasRick

Romney was doomed in the last election, four years from now, after the big 0 has totally destroyed our economy, people will flock to him as the only solution. BTW, does anybody remember who the 0 said he would have help him re; the economy in one of the demates with McCain? I don't think it was the losers he has now. Did the 0 lie? I.m Shocked!
///////////////////////////////////////

it seems like a perfect storm that allowed O to get elected.
nothing stuck to that grifter. most of his negative baggage never got mentioned and if it did, it was spun as trivial. not relevant. he could no wrong.
i could feel the inevitability of his ascension. yuck.
look at the good candidates who got pushed aside.
competent people. patriots.
rudy looks so good to me now. and romney.

we're going to have us a perfect storm too tho. in a situation like this we need to take advantage of the momentum. and get the most qualified person we can.
no need to skate by w/ just anyone.

258 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:43:05am

re: #246 burntjohn

Creationism like global warming is filled with dogma and junk science.
There are all ready signs of a merger of the two.
BEWARE!

Where? Links? Just one link?

259 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:43:09am

Gotta go.

I posted at Gregory's site, asked what Jindal thinks about creationists' attempts to slip into science classrooms in an increasing number of states, and whether he thinks his own concession encouraged them.

260 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:43:12am

re: #255 calcajun

Looking for a non-white candidate.

Mitt and Rudy will win in a landslide.

261 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:44:07am

re: #226 Charles

Please name one scientist who claims that the origin of life has been "settled scientifically."

Arthur C. Clarke jumps to mind immediately.

As for the others, if they are teaching that life arose spontaneously, as they always do, are they not, in your opinion, denying any other possibility? What are the options they provide to the spontaneous generation of life on earth?

262 Colonel Panik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:44:23am

Actually, given the reality or unreality if you prefer on the ground in Louisiana, I don't find Jindal all that kooky by comparison. After all, this is a state where a large number of people believe in VooDoo, and elected Ray Nagin as mayor. They certainly have a history of "colorful" politicians, going back as some lizard mentioned upthread, to "The Kingfish".

Do have some good cookin' down there though.

But I find that Carville guy to be extremely annoying.

Let le bon temps roulez!

263 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:44:36am

re: #259 iLikeCandy

Gotta go.

I posted at Gregory's site, asked what Jindal thinks about creationists' attempts to slip into science classrooms in an increasing number of states, and whether he thinks his own concession encouraged them.

Excellent questions, especially the latter.

264 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:44:44am

re: #261 TradeBait

A science fiction author?

265 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:44:50am

re: #249 Charles

Global warming!

The answer to which is reducing carbon emissions. Imagine how much carbon would be removed from the atmosphere if people just stopped breathing for five minutes each day. Come on everyone and do your part! ////

266 burntjohn  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:45:01am

In his book Saving the World at Work Tim Sanders talks about religious groups preaching that global warming is punishment from God for our sins to the planet.

267 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:45:17am

re: #173 TradeBait

Well, at least you didn't restrict me to a YES or NO answer this time. Thank you! I don't want to see religion taught in schools. That opens a whole can of worms concerning which religions are taught and which are excluded. All Americans have the basic right of religious freedom, which should exist outside the classroom, in my opinion

I would not be opposed, in fact I would like to see, admission by science that the origin of the universe and the origin of life on earth are concepts which have not been settled scientifically. That's basic truth, I think, which doesn't by itself impose religion in the classroom.

We can at least teach children how old the Universe, the earth, and the earliest signs of life we have so far found on it are (13.7 billion years, 4.6 billion years, and 3 1/2 billion years, respectively).

268 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:46:24am

re: #233 Charles

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I may have been unclear about this. I believe in evolution, but is it not possible that evolution is the work of a devine power? There's only one way to know for sure and I'm really not in a hurry to find out, if you know what I mean. I just think it's interesting to ponder.

269 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:46:32am

re: #262 Colonel Panik

Actually, given the reality or unreality if you prefer on the ground in Louisiana, I don't find Jindal all that kooky by comparison. After all, this is a state where a large number of people believe in VooDoo, and elected Ray Nagin as mayor. They certainly have a history of "colorful" politicians, going back as some lizard mentioned upthread, to "The Kingfish".

Do have some good cookin' down there though.

But I find that Carville guy to be extremely annoying.

Let le bon temps roulez!

Can we give it back to France?

270 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:46:36am

re: #229 Chicago Blonde

I resemble that remark.

271 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:46:39am

re: #239 Ziggy

I'm not suggesting demons and exorcisms be discussed in class, just the evolution aspect of my post. I would never stand for that in my kids science class. I'm not a creationist at all, I just think there is a lot of unexplained things in this world and I'm not sure that certain ideas should be off the table for discussion.

Well then, which ideas do you think should be on the table for discussion in science class? What's the question that you think should be asked?

272 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:46:46am

re: #264 Sharmuta

A science fiction author?

Gave me a good laugh.

273 FightingBack  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:46:46am

re: #262 Colonel Panik

Youtube Video
274 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:46:46am

re: #267 Salamantis

We can at least teach children how old the Universe, the earth, and the earliest signs of life we have so far found on it are (13.7 billion years, 4.6 billion years, and 3 1/2 billion years, respectively).

Pffft, 6013 years old! Everyone knows that!
//////////////

275 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:47:05am

re: #261 TradeBait

Arthur C. Clarke jumps to mind immediately.

Prove it. Give me a link, not just your assertion. I've read a lot of Arthur C. Clarke's work, and he NEVER claimed that the origin of life is "settled scientifically."

As for the others, if they are teaching that life arose spontaneously, as they always do, are they not, in your opinion, denying any other possibility?

More assertions without any proof. This is not taught in any public school science class in the United States.

276 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:47:29am

re: #252 twincitiesgirl

How does all of this tie in with Replacement Theology, which I know next to nothing about. I first heard the term in reference to President Bush. He believes in it and it's the reason he has no problems with dividing Israel.

It will be interesting to see if Jindal is asked about some of his bizarre beliefs. If not, then you know we are being set up for another msm picked Republican candidate in the 2012 elections.

Over my dead lizard body....

That term is new to me, but I suspect I know it as some other "title.". I'll have to look it up.

I want all politicians, military, leaders etc. to stay out of ALL HOLY BOOKS, when it comes to making decisions of a political nature.

Sure, it's nice to understand what another culture has behind some of it's thinking, but, there has to be a cut off point where your decisions have nothing to do with religion.

End of that story.

277 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:47:37am
278 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:47:42am

Contrary evidence: I haven't been participating because I've been surfing the ugly sites. I'm not finding anything that ties Jindal definitely to the David Dukers in N. Louisiana other than peripheral associations like the one Charles mentions above. Some of the fundie "Christian Identity" groups definitely cross circles with the Stormfronters as this post points out, but the the general populace at Stormfront isn't too fond of Jindal, even though he's courted that crowd peripherally. (bubba bumpersticker campaign etc.)

I'm not seeing him at Blackhawk rallies or similar events, not finding ties to CofCC. But then I've not looked very hard yet.

279 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:47:44am

re: #266 burntjohn

In his book Saving the World at Work Tim Sanders talks about religious groups preaching that global warming is punishment from God for our sins to the planet.

Which religious groups? Political leanings?

Please give a LINK. We don'th have time to go out and buy a book.

280 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:47:44am

re: #253 Killgore Trout

You clearly haven't read the material yourself. You are taking some preachers word for what scientists believe. They are lying to you.

How could I have possibly have been educated in the United States and not have read the material? That's a spurious argument.

281 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:48:01am

re: #268 Ziggy

I may have been unclear about this. I believe in evolution, but is it not possible that evolution is the work of a devine power? There's only one way to know for sure and I'm really not in a hurry to find out, if you know what I mean. I just think it's interesting to ponder.

First- evolution and belief in God are not exclusive. One can have both.

Second- while it is interesting to ponder God using evolution, it's not science.

282 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:48:45am

re: #268 Ziggy

I may have been unclear about this. I believe in evolution, but is it not possible that evolution is the work of a devine power? There's only one way to know for sure and I'm really not in a hurry to find out, if you know what I mean. I just think it's interesting to ponder.

Yes, it is interesting to ponder. However, it is not a fit subject to be taught in a science class in a public school.

283 Colonel Panik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:48:59am

re: #264 Sharmuta

A science fiction author?

Yeah, the guy who provided the basis for all communication satellites. It was Arthur C. Clarke who determined, back in the 1940's the distance at which a comsat would have to be above the earth for the orbit to be geosynchronous.
Such orbits are known as "Clarke orbits". He wrote an essay entitled "how I lost a billion dollars in an afternoon" because he did not patent the idea.

During WWII he was an electronics engineer for the RAF who designed early radar controlled landing approach systems to allow bombers returning from mission over Germany to land at night or in poor weather. So you can thank him the next time an airliner you are riding on lands safely in a rainstorm.

284 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:49:17am

re: #280 TradeBait

How could I have possibly have been educated in the United States and not have read the material? That's a spurious argument.

You still have not provided any proof for your assertions.

285 burntjohn  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:49:30am

re: #258 MandyManners

Mandy
I have no links, this is all many books I have been reading.
YES! Reading a book, what a novel idea, does anybody do this any longer.
Be very wary of anything on the internet

286 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:49:36am

re: #261 TradeBait

Arthur C. Clarke jumps to mind immediately.

As for the others, if they are teaching that life arose spontaneously, as they always do, are they not, in your opinion, denying any other possibility? What are the options they provide to the spontaneous generation of life on earth?

Why don't you start including some links, quotes, proofs with your comments, because up to this point, you have not proven a thing.

287 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:49:39am

re: #261 TradeBait

I do not think that Mr. Clarke had any letters after his name. He was not a scientist by any stretch.

288 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:49:43am

re: #261 TradeBait

Arthur C. Clarke jumps to mind immediately.

Not a scientist

289 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:49:59am

re: #193 iLikeCandy

Can't find a word about the loony nights continuing. The outside interest continues, but not the loony nights.

The original Jindal-authored article on his college participation in an exorcism in order to cure cancer seems to have been scrubbed from the internet.

290 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:50:02am

re: #268 Ziggy

I may have been unclear about this. I believe in evolution, but is it not possible that evolution is the work of a devine power? There's only one way to know for sure and I'm really not in a hurry to find out, if you know what I mean. I just think it's interesting to ponder.

Is it possible? Yes, but question is not scientifically answerable. It is also spiritually suspect. If some how we prove the existence of a creator, what happens to faith?

291 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:50:33am

re: #261 TradeBait

Clarke's not a scientist, he's a radar technician and science popularist. Where did he say that, and do you have a link?

292 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:50:44am

re: #285 burntjohn

Mandy
I have no links, this is all many books I have been reading.
YES! Reading a book, what a novel idea, does anybody do this any longer.
Be very wary of anything on the internet

Oh, the irony.

293 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:50:53am

re: #283 Colonel Panik

Not trying to be insulting. But his background's not in biology or physics, is it?

294 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:51:12am

re: #201 Ziggy

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

Send your kids to religious schools. I did. And even then, science class was science class and religion classes were separate.

Now my youngest is attending a private secular school for learning disabled children. I have no problem with him being taught straight science in his science and biology classes. Would prefer that he be taught science and biology and not muddle things. The courses are difficult enough.

Also, what is stopping any parent from supplementing these classes at home with a long nature walk with a child and admiring G-d's glory while also talking about the process of say....photosynthesis?

295 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:51:30am

re: #289 Salamantis

The original Jindal-authored article on his college participation in an exorcism in order to cure cancer seems to have been scrubbed from the internet.

Another memory hole?!

296 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:51:34am

re: #277 ploome hineni

I am very unhappy that Huckleberry is getting 6 day a week face time on FOX (I have had enough of him)

free advertising for him, for sure he will run again next election

He sucks.

297 debutaunt  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:51:36am

re: #159 Sharmuta

Wow- jindal has some really unsavory connections.

It's a relief to head him off early, like this.

298 Colonel Panik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:51:47am

re: #273 FightingBack

Good ol' Hank!

299 Colonel Panik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:53:18am

re: #293 Sharmuta

Not trying to be insulting. But his background's not in biology or physics, is it?

He was an electronics engineer, so he probably had a pretty extensive physics background. He would have had to, to develop the idea of geosynchronous sats.

300 itellu3times  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:53:23am

re: #213 TradeBait

Well, Charles, you and I must be sourcing different material, or at least interpreting it differently. Every scientific text I've read and every documentary I view that touches on the question infers that life arose on earth spontaneously. There is no scientific basis for that assumption. It's not a question of religion in my view, more a question of what we know about the material world and what we do not know.

What do you mean, "spontaneously"?

The Earth and the entire solar system condensed over a couple of billion years from the remnants of previous supernova. In millions of mud-puddles and underwater volcanic vents, chemical reactions went on in millions of moles, each with 6.02 x 100000000000000000000000 molecules, each trying out new configurations a million times a second, until a few stable and self-replicating reactions occurred, and spread.

Sponteneously, right.

301 burntjohn  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:53:34am

re: #279 MandyManners

How about a library.
Do not expect good results if you want instant gratification.
I could not find the answers on the internet.
Sometimes you need some EXTRA EFFORT to find the answers.

302 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:53:39am

re: #252 twincitiesgirl

How does all of this tie in with Replacement Theology, which I know next to nothing about. I first heard the term in reference to President Bush. He believes in it and it's the reason he has no problems with dividing Israel.

It will be interesting to see if Jindal is asked about some of his bizarre beliefs. If not, then you know we are being set up for another msm picked Republican candidate in the 2012 elections.

Over my dead lizard body....

Ok, I just looked up Replacement Theology, and, it's basically identity stuff, covenant stuff. If Bush believed it, nothing would surprise me. It's listed as part of Supersessionism on Wiki.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

303 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:53:41am

re: #284 Charles

You still have not provided any proof for your assertions.

re: #291 Thanos

Clarke's not a scientist, he's a radar technician and science popularist. Where did he say that, and do you have a link?

Okay, already. Let me look for some links. I'll be back in a few.

304 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:55:15am

How sad.

The left puts a guy in the White House who has very close ties to racists, tax cheats, domestic terrorists, and assorted other criminals. He told us he was going to Socialize America - and he is now in the process of doing so.

No one bats an eye.

The right cannot even think about putting a guy with wacky religious views anywhere near the presidency, because its "bad for America."

Don't get me wrong - I strongly disagree with religion in science class. I just shake my head at where we are right now (as Americans).

We need the next Ronald Reagan.

305 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:56:19am

Am I the only one for whom LGF just burped?

306 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:56:35am

re: #303 TradeBait

Okay, already. Let me look for some links. I'll be back in a few.

You're not going to find anything to back up your assertion that Clarke said the issue of the origin of life is "settled scientifically." He never said that or anything remotely like it.

307 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:56:37am

re: #303 TradeBait

Off the the Creationist quote mines.

308 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:57:03am

re: #307 Killgore Trout

Off the the Creationist quote mines.

snicker

309 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:57:18am

re: #305 MandyManners

No weirdness on my end...

310 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:57:32am

re: #297 debutaunt

It's a relief to head him off early, like this.

This is really no surprise to me. If you look deep into these people, you are going to find a lot of levels of Supersessionism, Covenant teachings, Identity teachings and so on. Some of it is almost benign and some of it is quite radical.

I spent 20 years in the south, and I belonged to just about every sect you can imagine, and this kind of "we are the new jews" slide around through these groups all the time.

I use to have a vast library of books on this subject, and a quick search of the internet will bring up enough reading to keep you busy for months.

311 karmic_inquisitor  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:57:45am

Q: Why do chickens cross roads?

A: 'Cause that's what God designed them to do.

312 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:57:46am

re: #299 Colonel Panik

He was an electronics engineer, so he probably had a pretty extensive physics background. He would have had to, to develop the idea of geosynchronous sats.

He wasn't the originator, and most of his education in this area came from the military. He's not a physicist.

313 Opilio  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:58:18am

re: #309 Chicago Blonde

No weirdness on my end...

Plenty of weirdness on my end, but that has nothing to do with LGF.

314 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:58:28am

re: #303 TradeBait

While you are looking see if you can find a peer reviewed published science paper that states we definitely know the origin of life, or the origin of the universe. There are many that hypothesize and speculate upon it, but none that declare definite scientific and tested knowledge of how life or the universe came to be.

315 DEZes  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:59:18am

re: #311 karmic_inquisitor

Q: Why do chickens cross roads?

A: 'Cause that's what God designed them to do.


Heh, I had a guy tell me it was to show a opossum it could be done. ;)

316 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:59:22am

re: #313 Opilio

Yes, what Opilio said.

317 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:59:36am

OT: Islamists find scientific support for the burka....
Men and bikin

I came across this article on CNN and it's about men's brain and bikini images... Besides that it's an interesting study, it actually goes along with our religion that men and women should cover themselves appropriately....

CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN)

It may seem obvious that men perceive women in sexy bathing suits as objects, but now there's science to back it up.

New research shows that, in men, the brain areas associated with handling tools and the intention to perform actions light up when viewing images of women in bikinis.

318 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:59:55am

re: #201 Ziggy

what if demons are real and exorcisms really work? I sure as hell don't know they don't. If you truly believe evil exists, and I do, is it such a leap to believe in such things? I just don't know. As for evolution, it is a THEORY with a some unanswered questions. I don't believe for a second that religion should be taught in school, but if G-d and evolution are not incompatible with each other(as stinky Beaumont and I believe) shouldn't that question be allowed to be asked in class? Not taught, but allowed to be discussed.

First, for the eleventy-twelfth time, the definition of the term 'theory' in a scientific context is far removed from its connotation as a hunch or guess that is popular in common parlance.

According to the United States National Academy of Sciences,

"Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena."

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Theism and evolutionary theory are indeed not incompatible, but the former is religion and the latter is science, and only science belongs in public high school science class. If one was to discuss ONE religion, one would have to discuss them ALL. And once one got through discussing Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Bahaiism, Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Paganism, Shintoism, and all the rest, there wouldn't be any time left to discuss science.

319 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:59:57am

re: #303 TradeBait

Okay, already. Let me look for some links. I'll be back in a few.

LOL. That would be something new. You pulled this same crap on the Forbes thread on Wednesday. No links. Just a repeated attempt to conflate evolution and biogenesis with nothing to back it up.

Getting boring...

320 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:00:38am

re: #314 Thanos

While you are looking see if you can find a peer reviewed published science paper that states we definitely know the origin of life, or the origin of the universe. There are many that hypothesize and speculate upon it, but none that declare definite scientific and tested knowledge of how life or the universe came to be.

Of course it can't be found. And it's unfortunate that a lot of folks, sometimes without knowledge, believes that it's out there. And of course, sometimes they KNOW it's not out there, but they keep spreading the news as if it's truth, and there for it becomes so.

321 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:01:00am

re: #314 Thanos

While you are looking see if you can find a peer reviewed published science paper that states we definitely know the origin of life, or the origin of the universe. There are many that hypothesize and speculate upon it, but none that declare definite scientific and tested knowledge of how life or the universe came to be.

Notice how the claim has morphed from "they're teaching kids that the origin of life and the universe is settled scientifically" to "I think a science fiction writer might have said that."

322 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:01:05am

re: #306 Charles

He never said that or anything remotely like it.

I dunno. Those cocktail parties in Colombo could get pretty wild. If old Art was on a real bender, you know, he could have scribbled something down on a napkin. It's possible.///

All of his writings were more about questions being unanswered and the universe containing more mysteries than we could ever hope to solve.

323 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:01:09am

re: #317 Killgore Trout

"the brain areas associated with handling tools and the intention to perform actions light up..."

Sounds like a feature, not a bug.

324 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:01:11am

re: #307 Killgore Trout

Off the the Creationist quote mines.

Filled with iron pyrite.

325 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:01:25am

re: #317 Killgore Trout

the link to the full article no worky

but from the link you provided

New research shows that, in men, the brain areas associated with handling tools and the intention to perform actions light up when viewing images of women in bikinis.


which tool are they referring to?

326 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:01:54am

Besides, the way things have been going lately, I'm not sure America will make it to 2012. What did the stock market close at yesterday - 7365? Almost half of what the high was. How low will it go?

327 VegasRick  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:02:07am

OT. On FOX, April 1, the 0's tax credit takes affect! (means about $8 every check for me). What a fucking joke!

328 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:02:35am

I don't know how to articulate this without everyone jumping down my back - its difficult to explain why its all a joke to me in the first place, but the people who believe in Creationism aren't interested to understand that it has nothing to do with The First man and woman. Its Jewish folklore, biblical. Any rabbi can tell you the story is about how Adam was the first man to receive Torah. His sons went out into the world and found wives and there is no mention in Scripture at all saying how human beings came into being. The 7 day story is all allegorical. These people refuse to look at it the way its attended to, which is as Jewish folklore.

329 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:02:42am

re: #213 TradeBait

Well, Charles, you and I must be sourcing different material, or at least interpreting it differently. Every scientific text I've read and every documentary I view that touches on the question infers that life arose on earth spontaneously. There is no scientific basis for that assumption. It's not a question of religion in my view, more a question of what we know about the material world and what we do not know.

Please furnish the titles of these texts and the relevant page numbers and quotes, and which public high schools currently employ them.

330 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:02:55am

re: #324 jcm

Filled with iron pyrite.

Speaking of, the real stuff crossed over the 1K/ounce line yesterday.

331 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:03:03am

The exorcism ritual can be very dangerous. The Exorcism of Audrey Rose, was a movie out a few years back about a real incident.
Briefly, a poor young woman with epilepsy was thought by her parents to be pocessed.
They had a Priest perform the ritual. He took her off of her meds, because he thought that it interferred with his efforts. She starved to death & the priest went to jail for I believe 2nd degree murder

332 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:03:20am

re: #317 Killgore Trout

Well, just poke out my eyes then and be done with it. Did someone get a grant to study this?

333 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:04:06am

re: #328 Teacake!

I don't know how to articulate this without everyone jumping down my back - its difficult to explain why its all a joke to me in the first place, but the people who believe in Creationism aren't interested to understand that it has nothing to do with The First man and woman. Its Jewish folklore, biblical. Any rabbi can tell you the story is about how Adam was the first man to receive Torah. His sons went out into the world and found wives and there is no mention in Scripture at all saying how human beings came into being. The 7 day story is all allegorical. These people refuse to look at it the way its attended to, which is as Jewish folklore.

Huh?

Seriously, are you feeling ok?

334 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:04:27am

re: #330 pink freud

Speaking of, the real stuff crossed over the 1K/ounce line yesterday.

the guest on Glenn Beck yesterday said it might go to 8K/ oz

335 Chicago Blonde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:04:28am

BBIAB all

336 gegenkritik  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:04:29am

OT: US-Champ Andy Roddick boycotts Dubai Tennis tournament:

[Link: nbcsports.msnbc.com...]

Good man!

337 vxbush  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:05:25am

re: #321 Charles

Notice how the claim has morphed from "they're teaching kids that the origin of life and the universe is settled scientifically" to "I think a science fiction writer might have said that."

It would be interesting to grab some common biology textbooks and see exactly what they are saying in them, though. As a nice comparison to the Pandas book.

338 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:05:30am

re: #328 Teacake!

These people refuse to look at it the way its attended to, which is as Jewish folklore.


That's true. Although there are some Jews who take the creation story literally they are a small minority in the Jewish community. The literal interpretations is mostly from Christians and Muslims.

339 calcajun  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:05:44am

re: #336 gegenkritik

OT: US-Champ Andy Roddick boycotts Dubai Tennis tournament:

[Link: nbcsports.msnbc.com...]

Good man!

Like he was gonna win anyway. Silly Kaffir.///

Good on you, Andy!

340 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:06:12am

re: #333 Lynn B.

I don't think teacake realizes we understand Genesis is not literal, but she fails to understand this isn't a joke. These people a quite serious, and they're trying to indoctrinate other people's kids with this nonsense.

341 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:06:28am

Being a Jewish girl and having read articles written by rabbis, you might want to redirect your question. The point I'm making is that people who argue against or for Creationism I believe aren't really interested in the facts.

342 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:06:39am

re: #340 Sharmuta

I don't think teacake realizes we understand Genesis is not literal, but she fails to understand this isn't a joke. These people a quite serious, and they're trying to indoctrinate other people's kids with this nonsense.

oy vey

343 pink freud  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:07:05am

re: #334 Shug

the guest on Glenn Beck yesterday said it might go to 8K/ oz

I saw that. Those two guys had some serious alarmist viewpoints.

That one segment did more to shy me away from Glenn Beck than his other stuff I've seen. He's starting to get that chicken little aura about him.

344 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:07:17am

re: #332 Walter L. Newton


Did someone get a grant to study this?


Probably. I can't blame them. Ever since the dawn of time men have been trying to figure out how to get paid to study naked women and drink beer. Few heroes will actually accomplish this great feat.

345 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:07:26am

re: #328 Teacake!

I don't know how to articulate this without everyone jumping down my back - its difficult to explain why its all a joke to me in the first place, but the people who believe in Creationism aren't interested to understand that it has nothing to do with The First man and woman. Its Jewish folklore, biblical. Any rabbi can tell you the story is about how Adam was the first man to receive Torah. His sons went out into the world and found wives and there is no mention in Scripture at all saying how human beings came into being. The 7 day story is all allegorical. These people refuse to look at it the way its attended to, which is as Jewish folklore.

And you are right (IMHO). But can't you see that it is not a JOKE to all those who see this as some sort of actual fact, and they are running with it, have been running with it for ages, and will continue running with it.

So, I can agree with you that it is a joke, hahahah, ok. But the results of that joke is not FUNNY anymore.

It's dangerous, it's a hinderance to responsible politics and responsible education of our children, and it speaks of a much larger problem, the lack of critical thinking skills among our populace.

That's not a joke.

346 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:09:44am

To me the joke is that its far too late for "most" people to understand that Creationism is a Jewish story and not about all mankind. I gave up on the topic years ago because its set in stone by the "believers."

347 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:10:28am

wow that was weird. I was trying to respond to soome of you and my system completely froze then shut down. I had to do a quick exorcism, but I'm back online now (that was a joke).

348 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:11:10am

re: #347 Ziggy

wow that was weird. I was trying to respond to soome of you and my system completely froze then shut down. I had to do a quick exorcism, but I'm back online now (that was a joke).

I don't think anyone cares?

349 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:11:14am

I think Jindal's a good fit for Louisiana, and he's certainly a step up from Blanco.

Let's just do what we can to encourage him to stay there as governor for many, many terms.

350 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:11:37am

Walter, what is dangerous to me is that a great deal of people aren't interested in the facts about the creation story. Its too late and I don't think its funny, I just see its too far gone to care about. I have to go now.

351 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:11:56am

re: #278 Thanos

Contrary evidence: I haven't been participating because I've been surfing the ugly sites. I'm not finding anything that ties Jindal definitely to the David Dukers in N. Louisiana other than peripheral associations like the one Charles mentions above. Some of the fundie "Christian Identity" groups definitely cross circles with the Stormfronters as this post points out, but the the general populace at Stormfront isn't too fond of Jindal, even though he's courted that crowd peripherally. (bubba bumpersticker campaign etc.)

I'm not seeing him at Blackhawk rallies or similar events, not finding ties to CofCC. But then I've not looked very hard yet.

He's apparently very connected to the extreme fundamentalist Alliance Defense Fund.

[Link: www.alliancedefensefund.org...]

352 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:12:43am

re: #341 Teacake!

Being a Jewish girl and having read articles written by rabbis, you might want to redirect your question. The point I'm making is that people who argue against or for Creationism I believe aren't really interested in the facts.

No, people who argue against Creationism are very much interested in the facts.

You may be a Jewish girl but your understanding of Jewish perception of Genesis is flawed. As is your implication that "any rabbi" would relate any one understanding of it. Find two rabbis and you'll find two completely different interpretations. The notion that Adam was the first man to receive Torah, for example, is one that's held by some but not others and is a very confusing concept for those who know that the Torah was first revealed at Sinai ... a little after Adam's time.

353 rhymeswithright  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:13:03am

I can't help but note a real religious bigotry in this post.

After all, let's consider the "charges" that would lead you to view Jindal as somehow unfit for the Presidency (or, presumably, any other office).

1) he promoted and signed a creationism bill (with help from the Discovery Institute)

Actually, it is not a creationism bill. Indeed, it merely permits teachers and students to recognize and discuss the fact that evolution is, in the end, a theory that is a work in progress and that the theory of evolution as it currently is propounded by scientists is not infallible and beyond question. It ultimately comes back to defending academic freedom.

2) he took part in an amateur exorcism and claimed it cured a woman of cancer

Oh, dear -- he is religious, participated in a religious ritual, and believes that miracles can and do occur today. How frighteningly CHRISTIAN of him -- and we certainly can't let Christians have any influence in this country, given that they make up some 80% of the population. You sound like Dawkins here.

3) he pals around with people on the extreme edges of fundamentalist Christianity

Damn that Jindal for a tolerant individual -- he has friends and allies who are FUNDAMRENTALIST CHRISTIANS. That's flat out religious bigotry. Indeed, it is religious mcCarthyism.

4) he pals around with. . . at least one person who has associated with outright neo-Nazis

Or, put differently, he pals around with David Barton, the former Vice Chairman of the Republican Party of Texas. Nice of you to leave that part out. You also link to extreme left-wing groups in order to do the smearing. -- what next, Daily Kos as a reliable source?

Now it seems pretty clear to me that you don't like Jindal.

You apparently don't have any use for fundamentalists.

I'd even go so far that you don't have much use for Christians in general -- at least not ones who really believe in their faith and let it impact their daily lives and view of the world.

But I can't help but wonder if the sort of attacks you use in this piece might not be considered anti-Semitic if they were deployed, for example, against a Joe Lieberman and his associations with "extreme Orthodox Jews".

354 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:13:42am

It's a shame. I had early hopes that Jindal could be a national GOP leader until this stuff surfaced. Now I think he's toast.

OT: My fraternity brothers got drunk years ago, and held a seance over Molly Pitcher's grave at midnight on Halloween. Does this disqualify them from the Presidency? ;-)

355 Buffoon  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:13:44am

Yikes, some of these things aren’t going to pass the smell test come 2012. I say we give Fred Thompson and Dick Cheney all the money we have, a steady supply of methamphetimine and turn them loose…

356 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:13:58am

re: #239 Ziggy

I'm not suggesting demons and exorcisms be discussed in class, just the evolution aspect of my post. I would never stand for that in my kids science class. I'm not a creationist at all, I just think there is a lot of unexplained things in this world and I'm not sure that certain ideas should be off the table for discussion.

You want religious ideas discussed? Have them discussed in a comparative religion class. Public high school science classes are for science, not speculation.

357 Gus  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:14:58am

Arthur C. Clarke was a scientist? That's a new one on me. His primary profession was that of a writer. He authored one paper on geo-stationary satellites and was a director of an interplanetary society in the UK for 3 years. Not to diminish his contributions to science by expanding the imaginations of future and then current scientists but his experience and life do not indicate that he was a scientist. This would be similar to a writer having designed one house and having been a director of a planning commission being called an architect.

Speaking of scientists and architects: why is it that most other professional fields require licensure? In other fields it is required that one usually undergo an internship and later examinations and a certain level of professional supervision and review as well as an examination: medical doctor, juris doctor, engineering, architecture, etc. Unlike these fields, it is simple enough to get a degree in a scientific field and following employment (or sometimes the mere act of dabbling) in a scientific endeavor you are free to claim the title of scientist.

358 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:15:07am

re: #344 Killgore Trout

Judging a beauty contest! Hmmm. In a brewery? ;-)

359 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:15:07am

re: #348 Walter L. Newton

I don't think anyone cares?

Probably not, I'm just punchy from late hours at work and no fun time. It's probably long over due for me to get back to the salt mines anyway. Forgive me for playing devil's advocate. (unintentional punn, but it works)

360 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:15:29am

Lynne, the soul of Adam is the soul of Torah. You might need to do some research. The breath of life, torah. This is why all of the Hebrew Scripture is in Hebrew and all the characters have little flames. The flames are very significant.

361 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:15:45am

re: #353 rhymeswithright

Here we go again with parroted talking points.

I notice you didn't address a single fact in the post -- just one misdirection after another.

And no -- I am not "anti-Christian." I am, however, strongly opposed to allowing religious fundamentalists to determine the political direction of the United States.

362 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:17:01am

re: #353 rhymeswithright

Actually, it is not a creationism bill. Indeed, it merely permits teachers and students to recognize and discuss the fact that evolution is, in the end, a theory that is a work in progress and that the theory of evolution as it currently is propounded by scientists is not infallible and beyond question. It ultimately comes back to defending academic freedom.

Actually- it is a creationism bill. There is no scientific evidence that undermines the theory of evolution. That questions remain in the theory doesn't in and of itself undermine the validity of the theory. And there is nothing preventing a teacher from pointing out any of the current scientific questions concerning the theory. The only reason this bill was needed was to allow the latest incarnation of creationism into schools.

363 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:17:44am
364 Teacake!  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:18:04am

Anyhow, got to go. Lynne, the tree of knowledge is torah as well. Took many generations before it was revealed to masses of people though Moses.

365 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:18:31am

re: #346 Teacake!

To me the joke is that its far too late for "most" people to understand that Creationism is a Jewish story and not about all mankind. I gave up on the topic years ago because its set in stone by the "believers."

Again, no. Of course it's about all mankind. And it's hardly a "Jewish" story. Similar creation myths existed in many cultures long before Judaism appeared. Christianity and Islam both accept Genesis (more or less) as the Creation story. There's a vast difference between accepting it as a scientific description and accepting it as an allegorical or metaphorical account. But it was always intended to address all of life on earth, not just Jewish origins. Wherever did you get that idea?

366 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:18:32am

re: #360 Teacake!

Kabbalah. You and Madonna! ;-)

367 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:18:49am

re: #350 Teacake!

Walter, what is dangerous to me is that a great deal of people aren't interested in the facts about the creation story. Its too late and I don't think its funny, I just see its too far gone to care about. I have to go now.

It is never too far gone to fight against bad law!

368 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:20:26am

re: #351 Charles

He's apparently very connected to the extreme fundamentalist Alliance Defense Fund.

[Link: www.alliancedefensefund.org...]


Well they are extreme in their homophobia, but they aren't the domininist/christian identity types. That's the Amway guy behind that iirc.

369 srmoss  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:20:43am

re: #245 Sharmuta

And real science keeps looking for the answers to those questions. Creationism/ID just shrugs and says, "God did it".

And when science (although that's a pretty ambiguous term) isn't able to convince people of the theory of evolution, they further try to make their point by name calling and dripping condescension.

370 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:20:53am

re: #360 Teacake!

Lynne, the soul of Adam is the soul of Torah. You might need to do some research. The breath of life, torah. This is why all of the Hebrew Scripture is in Hebrew and all the characters have little flames. The flames are very significant.

Ok Teacake. You have taken this to the same extremes as a creationist would. We are not talking Cabalah here, we are not talking sparks, and we are not talking about ways of looking at Genesis.

You are, and it has nothing to do with teaching creationism in public school science classes.

You know what we are talking about.

371 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:20:54am
372 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:21:47am

re: #353 rhymeswithright

Fundies with a political activist agenda have done more to hurt the perception of Christianity in the past decades than help. As a Christian, I resent that and wish they would knock it off.

373 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:22:04am

Here come the creationists.

374 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:22:44am

re: #356 Salamantis

You want religious ideas discussed? Have them discussed in a comparative religion class. Public high school science classes are for science, not speculation.

And critical thinking skills need to be established before comparative religion.

375 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:23:38am

re: #353 rhymeswithright

Actually, I want to commend Charles for making me a stronger Christian. I now know more that I did concerning the dishonest strategies these folks use to push their agenda. I also know more of the Bible verses that speak specifically against these dishonest tactics. Christianity and living for Christ is one thing, pushing your religion into science classes is another. God doesn't want forced faith, he wants us to choose him. By being dishonest, these Christians do the faith a disservice and consequently impact the witness of millions of Christians. Jesus told us to be subservient to the government, not to take it over. We are to live within the times, not force others to change them. Remember; "by their fruit you shall know them". I don't see much fruit coming out of the policy of "lying for Jesus". I would strongly encourage you to read your Bible and question the groups that want to force religion on folks who don't want it. I think you will find that Christ wants no part of this. I want no part of it either.

376 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:23:58am

re: #373 Charles

Here come the creationists.

And warming up in the on deck circle.....
STINKY BEAUMONT!

377 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:24:14am

There is a important distinction between fundamentalism, neo-fundamentalism and the pop use of "fundamentalism." The original fundamentalists were generally not radicals, separatists or mean spirited. They were making a distinction between themselves and the modernist movement away from the miraculous, the authority of the Bible and the divinity of Christ. They referred to these distinctions as the "fundamentals" of the faith.

Neo-fundamentalism arose in the 60's and continues today. It does not reflect the teachings of Christ, or the authentic ancient tenets of Christianity.

Now the term "fundamentalist" is used to describe everything from authentic Christians to radical Muslims.

"The Moody Handbook of Theology" has an interesting passage on this subject.

378 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:24:16am

re: #369 srmoss

And when science (although that's a pretty ambiguous term) isn't able to convince people of the theory of evolution, they further try to make their point by name calling and dripping condescension.

As opposed to name calling and handing out eternal damnation?

379 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:24:24am

re: #369 srmoss

So you're a Defender of the Faith, are you? Your mind already is poisoned. You really think evolution is from the pit of hell, don't you? Does it occur to you that the laws of nature can be empirically observed and tested, whether they're visible or not?

380 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:24:33am

re: #375 Jetpilot1101

Actually, I want to commend Charles for making me a stronger Christian. I now know more that I did concerning the dishonest strategies these folks use to push their agenda. I also know more of the Bible verses that speak specifically against these dishonest tactics. Christianity and living for Christ is one thing, pushing your religion into science classes is another. God doesn't want forced faith, he wants us to choose him. By being dishonest, these Christians do the faith a disservice and consequently impact the witness of millions of Christians. Jesus told us to be subservient to the government, not to take it over. We are to live within the times, not force others to change them. Remember; "by their fruit you shall know them". I don't see much fruit coming out of the policy of "lying for Jesus". I would strongly encourage you to read your Bible and question the groups that want to force religion on folks who don't want it. I think you will find that Christ wants no part of this. I want no part of it either.

DING DING DING

381 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:24:50am

Hey everybody, old lizard lurker here. All this is interesting, heated and needed; but I wonder if you all know that the Left could have used some attention in this regard too. For instance the book "The Secret", that Oprah promoted, contains a dedication to an "Abraham Hicks"

Abraham comes from: Esther Hicks: an American inspirational speaker and best-selling author. She has co-authored nine books with her husband Jerry Hicks, presents workshops on the Law of Attraction and appeared in the first release of the film The Secret.[1] The Hickses' books, including the best-selling series The Law of Attraction, are — according to Esther Hicks — based on translations of thought she says she channels from a group of non-physical entities called Abraham (Hicks describes what she is doing as tapping into "infinite intelligence").

just saying...

382 Bloodnok  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:25:14am

re: #373 Charles

Here come the creationists.

Yeah, I saw the "creationist thread" signal beacon lit in the distance but I didn't want to tell you and ruin the surprise. They're right on time (just after most Lizards move over to the new thread).

383 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:25:51am

re: #353 rhymeswithright

4) he pals around with. . . at least one person who has associated with outright neo-Nazis

Or, put differently, he pals around with David Barton, the former Vice Chairman of the Republican Party of Texas. Nice of you to leave that part out. You also link to extreme left-wing groups in order to do the smearing. -- what next, Daily Kos as a reliable source?

So.....it's OK that the former Vice Chairman of the GOP in Texas associates with neo-Nazis?

um....

384 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:26:13am

re: #360 Teacake!

Lynne, the soul of Adam is the soul of Torah. You might need to do some research. The breath of life, torah. This is why all of the Hebrew Scripture is in Hebrew and all the characters have little flames. The flames are very significant.

Teacake, my dear. Please don't presume to lecture me on Judaism. You have no idea who you're talking to.

When and if you come back, or if you're still here, could you tell me what branch of Judaism you hail from? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm really having trouble making sense of some of your comments. I'm trying.

385 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:26:15am

re: #261 TradeBait

Arthur C. Clarke jumps to mind immediately.

Arthur C. Clarke was a sci-fi writer, not a working scientist.

As for the others, if they are teaching that life arose spontaneously, as they always do, are they not, in your opinion, denying any other possibility? What are the options they provide to the spontaneous generation of life on earth?

Provide the name of the schools and teachers where it is taught that life arises spontaneously. Oh, that's right, you are asserting that ALL of them do. Perhaps you're confused; perhaps you are futilely endeavoring to confuse others. The origin of SPECIES, that is their evolutionary diversification from a small set of very ancient ancestors, is not the same as the orogin of LIFE. The origin of species has to do with life mutating to other forms; the origin of life has to do with life coming from non-life. I do not think that empirical science has taken an official position on whether or not there was a cosmic Life-Sparker involved; however it would be empirically impossible for them to experimentally ascertain the participation, or lack of same, of such an extra-empirical entity, so it would seem to be a contention the determination of which resided outside the scientific domain.

386 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:27:14am

re: #289 Salamantis

The original Jindal-authored article on his college participation in an exorcism in order to cure cancer seems to have been scrubbed from the internet.

I posted it (sorry, way up there) but you have to pay to read the whole thing. Charles says the significant parts are in the video above.

387 iLikeCandy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:27:50am

re: #263 MandyManners

Excellent questions, especially the latter.

Thanks. (Coffee is injected, I am back.)

388 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:28:04am

re: #381 JustAHouseWife

We like it when the left has open kooks that we can point out at election time, it doesn't work out so well if the favor can be returned trebly.

389 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:28:11am

re: #369 srmoss

And when science (although that's a pretty ambiguous term) isn't able to convince people of the theory of evolution, they further try to make their point by name calling and dripping condescension.

And what do you know about it. Please provide a link to a scientist who is "name calling" and using "dripping condescension."

Now, careful, I want you to look at my question, in light of your comment, and look carefully. I want a link to an actual scientist.

Not some commentator, or journalist, or even someone here on LGF. Opinions are not science and I want to see a quote like you mention from a scientist.

I'll wait...

390 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:28:33am

re: #377 sprucepinehollow

Dwight L. Moody. One of the great Protestant Evangelicals of the 19th Century. There's a plaque on a wall in State Street, Boston near the Old Statehouse that reads, "On this spot, the Spirit of the Lord fell upon Dwight L. Moody in a shoe shop."

391 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:29:35am

re: #371 ploome hineni

coll site. My source for my claim about Jews and evolution was from here: Acceptance of Evolution by religion.

392 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:29:46am

re: #381 JustAHouseWife

Hey everybody, old lizard lurker here. All this is interesting, heated and needed; but I wonder if you all know that the Left could have used some attention in this regard too. For instance the book "The Secret", that Oprah promoted, contains a dedication to an "Abraham Hicks"

Abraham comes from: Esther Hicks: an American inspirational speaker and best-selling author. She has co-authored nine books with her husband Jerry Hicks, presents workshops on the Law of Attraction and appeared in the first release of the film The Secret.[1] The Hickses' books, including the best-selling series The Law of Attraction, are — according to Esther Hicks — based on translations of thought she says she channels from a group of non-physical entities called Abraham (Hicks describes what she is doing as tapping into "infinite intelligence").

just saying...

Right, got ya. And where have Oprah or Hicks tried to get this stuff into a state law to teach it in schools.

Are you on the right thread?

393 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:29:50am

re: #389 Walter L. Newton

Careful there Walter, there are a few out there. I won't help him out by naming any however.

394 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:29:54am

re: #390 quickjustice

Guess that means he had a soul, huh? ( - :

395 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:29:56am

re: #390 quickjustice

Dwight L. Moody. One of the great Protestant Evangelicals of the 19th Century. There's a plaque on a wall in State Street, Boston near the Old Statehouse that reads, "On this spot, the Spirit of the Lord fell upon Dwight L. Moody in a shoe shop."

Was he hurt badly?
///

My dad is a Moody BI grad.

396 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:30:10am

re: #349 funky chicken

I think Jindal's a good fit for Louisiana, and he's certainly a step up from Blanco.

Let's just do what we can to encourage him to stay there as governor for many, many terms.

I can't imagine voting for Jindal in the primary, however if he is nominated & the alternative is Obama, I would most definitely vote for Jindal.

397 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:30:47am

re: #385 Salamantis

Salamantis you hit the nail on the head. There is nothing contradictory with believing, as I do, that God got the ball rolling and believing in evolution, as I do, as the mechanism he used to diversify his "creation" Good grief, why can't these folks realize that Darwin doesn't challenge a belief in God, only a belief in how creatures became what they are today. Science has proven that evolution works and is verifiable. I believe in both and I am completely at peace with this.

398 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:31:27am

I wonder if a creationist email alert goes out when Charles puts these threads up.

399 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:31:45am

So. Is TradeBait back with his links yet?

No?

/maybe he's on a dial-up connection ...

400 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:32:20am

re: #393 Thanos

Careful there Walter, there are a few out there. I won't help him out by naming any however.

He won't try to find them. And there is no need to be careful, IMHO. If there are a few jerks like that, I would like to know, because it will help me in discussing this issue.

Knowledge is truth, I'm not afraid of the truth. I'm actually surprised at your comment.

401 AndyMacOP  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:32:36am

A message from a friend of mine today:

"I'm really glad our church doesn't believe that dinosaur fossils were put in the dirt by Satan to tempt us away from God"

402 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:33:13am

re: #289 Salamantis

The original Jindal-authored article on his college participation in an exorcism in order to cure cancer seems to have been scrubbed from the internet.

Thanx for finding a source for that article for me. I may just cough up the buck and a half for it all.

403 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:33:19am

re: #394 sprucepinehollow

re: #395 jcm

Heh. He was selling shoes at the time, but was able to duck before the Great Shoe pulverized him.

404 ladycatnip  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:33:49am

#331 opnion

The exorcism ritual can be very dangerous. The Exorcism of Audrey Rose, was a movie out a few years back about a real incident.
Briefly, a poor young woman with epilepsy was thought by her parents to be pocessed.
They had a Priest perform the ritual. He took her off of her meds, because he thought that it interferred with his efforts. She starved to death & the priest went to jail for I believe 2nd degree murder

It's sad that great irreparable harm can come to innocent (and very naive) people who are looking for answers or help. Fringe Christians are scary; I'll stick my neck out with questioning whether they're actually Christians or not - only God knows - but their behavior is not only foolish and unconscionable, but can be down right criminal.

When Jesus performed miracles, He usually told the recipient to not tell anyone. Could that be He didn't want His ministry to become a circus, as some of televangelism is today?

#375 Jetpilot1101
May you be granted a hundred updings!

405 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:33:55am
406 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:34:07am

re: #400 Walter L. Newton

He won't try to find them. And there is no need to be careful, IMHO. If there are a few jerks like that, I would like to know, because it will help me in discussing this issue.

Knowledge is truth, I'm not afraid of the truth. I'm actually surprised at your comment.

Why would you be surprised?

407 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:34:08am

re: #35 astronmr20

Nowhere in the Bible does it specify that "official clergy must cast out demons and no one else."

The Catholic Church's Code of Canon Law makes it quite clear that what Jindal did is completely against Catholic doctrine: What does the Church teach about locution and exorcism? - Catholic Answers Forums.

Code of Canon Law (CIC) is clear that only qualified priests with express permission may perform exorcisms: "No one can perform exorcisms legitimately upon the possessed unless he has obtained special and express permission from the local ordinary. The local ordinary is to give this permission only to a presbyter who has piety, knowledge, prudence, and integrity of life" (CIC 1171.1-2).

The New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law (p. 1405) points out that the 1998 Rite of Exorcism reordered this canon. Among the changes, “An exorcist is to be a priest (sacerdos), not a presbyter (presbyterus) as in the canon, which means bishops as well as presbyters may be appointed exorcist”.

408 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:35:01am

re: #356 Salamantis

You want religious ideas discussed? Have them discussed in a comparative religion class. Public high school science classes are for science, not speculation.

I can't argue that point with you.

409 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:35:03am
410 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:35:30am

re: #13 TradeBait

I'm curious. Would Jindal's personal beliefs prevent you from voting for him?

Trade Bait -

Considering his overall performance in Public Office - NO.

-S-

411 Bloodnok  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:35:53am

re: #398 Killgore Trout

I wonder if a creationist email alert goes out when Charles puts these threads up.

They light the Bat(shit) signal.

412 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:35:59am

re: #403 quickjustice

BTW, 'The Moody Handbook of Theology" was written by Paul Enns.

413 RhymesWithRight  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:36:17am

Here we go again with parroted talking points.

I notice you didn't address a single fact in the post -- just one misdirection after another.

And no -- I am not "anti-Christian." I am, however, strongly opposed to allowing religious fundamentalists to determine the political direction of the United States.

No talking points, Charles. I don't deal in them -- and as someone who believes in evolution, teaches evolution, and tells my students that evolution is the best theory out there in terms of the origins of life and species, I am no creationist.

What I pointed out, Charles, is a bigotry that you confirm in your response. You apparently hold a certain segment of believers in contempt, and want to make sure that they and those who might agree with them on some points are marginalized. That makes you no different than Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

Do you deny, for example, ridiculing Jindal's religious beliefs in regards to spiritual issues and the ability of God to intervene in the world? Do you deny implying that close association with the holders of certain religious beliefs ought to be a disqualifying factor for political office? Do you deny using "six degrees of separation" tactics to connect Jindal to actual extremists, despite the fact that he clearly is not one?

And Sharmuta -- i didn't argue that evolution was undermined by any current evidence. You assert, ex cathedra, that the bill is nothing more than a stealth creationism bill. As a teacher, I've had students come to me complaining that they have been threatened with lower grades for even raising questions about the sanctity of evolution. That is what this bill addresses -- and is a key academic freedom issue in my book. Besides, it is not creationism to admit that there are holes and gaps and questions in the currently accepted evolutionary model -- it is intellectual honesty that those of us who believe (and teach) evolution must be willing to accept, admit, and acknowledge even as we stand up for evolution as the best available theory.

414 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:38:08am

re: #406 Thanos

Why would you be surprised?

Your comment sounded like you didn't want them to become known. If I am mistaken, then tell me or clarify what you meant by "be careful."

ANy way I look at it, if MY STATEMENT was wrong to him, than I want to know, for my own purpose, my own knowledge.

415 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:38:49am

re: #407 Charles

An aside: "Presbyter" means "elder" in Greek, and is usually understood to be a lay person of exceptional learning, spirituality, and piety. That doesn't mean Jindal was complying with canon law in participating in such a ritual.

416 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:39:04am

re: #404 ladycatnip

I read an article years back that was inspired by Peter Blatty's 'The Exorcist" The assertion was that there has never been a recorded Jewish or Catholic exorcism performed on anyone that was not very religious.
The reasoning being that they were suspetible to suggestion.

417 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:39:11am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

As a teacher, I've had students come to me complaining that they have been threatened with lower grades for even raising questions about the sanctity of evolution.


Where? What school? What Teacher? What are you doing about it?

418 janjan  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:39:29am

So what about the amateur exorcism when he was in college. You mean to tell me that no one else has participated in some wild and woolly stuff in college? What about seances, or wiccan bs, or whatever crazy sh*t people come up with when they are young and pretty stupid. That exorcism doesnt bother me at all.

419 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:39:49am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

You got me. It's true. I'm a bigoted anti-Christian McCarthyite who holds all believers in contempt. And I'm just like Richard Dawkins.

(What's the point of arguing with this thin-skinned garbage?)

420 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:40:47am

re: #414 Walter L. Newton

I just didn't want you arguing from an untenable position especially since the points a distraction and non salient. PZ Meyers is a scientist. Cracker affair ring a bell?

421 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:41:06am

re: #418 janjan

So what about the amateur exorcism when he was in college. You mean to tell me that no one else has participated in some wild and woolly stuff in college? What about seances, or wiccan bs, or whatever crazy sh*t people come up with when they are young and pretty stupid. That exorcism doesnt bother me at all.

That's good.

Now, on to a question.

Should creationism be taught in science classes in public schools?

422 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:41:08am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

As a teacher, I've had students come to me complaining that they have been threatened with lower grades for even raising questions about the sanctity of evolution.

And you spoke with those other teachers to confirm the students' stories? Because teenagers never lie or exaggerate.

423 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:41:14am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

Thanks. One of the most balanced posts I've read here.

424 RhymesWithRight  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:41:29am

FunkyChicken:

Are you (and Charles) arguing that Barton is responsible for every speaker at every event he appears at?

Are you (and Charles) arguing that addressing a group implies acceptance of all aspects of its agendas and its leaders' philosophies?

Are you (and Charles) so willing to discredit those who you disagree with that you are prepared to take as Gospel the highly polemical writings of extreme left-wing groups to do so, and to dismiss the reasonable answers of those you oppose for having spoken at a given event?

425 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:42:10am

re: #419 Charles

You can expect that statement to be widely quoted.

426 Gus  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:42:13am

re: #407 Charles

Charles, here's another one I found at the Vatican:

When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism. Jesus performed exorcisms and from him the Church has received the power and office of exorcizing.178 In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. The solemn exorcism, called "a major exorcism," can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. The priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church. Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.

Article 1 - Sacramentals
#1673

427 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:42:44am

re: #341 Teacake!

Being a Jewish girl and having read articles written by rabbis, you might want to redirect your question. The point I'm making is that people who argue against or for Creationism I believe aren't really interested in the facts.

People who argue against teaching creationism as if it were empirical fact in public high school science classes sure as HELL are interested in the facts. And interested in ensuring that their kids are not taught falsities and dogmas as if they were facts in school.

428 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:42:46am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

As a teacher, I've had students come to me complaining that they have been threatened with lower grades for even raising questions about the sanctity of evolution.

I don't believe your assertion. Prove it.

429 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:42:53am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

"the sanctity of evolution"

LOL, creationist mask slipped a wee bit.

430 RhymesWithRight  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:42:56am

(What's the point of arguing with this thin-skinned garbage?)

Gee, Charles, are you now arguing that those who disagree with you are garbage?

431 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:43:04am

re: #420 Thanos

I just didn't want you arguing from an untenable position especially since the points a distraction and non salient. PZ Meyers is a scientist. Cracker affair ring a bell?

Oh, I see, you were trying to let me know I was wrong. No I understand. Well, I'd rather be given truthful information, even from a creationist, then go around having a untenable point.

The Meyers thing, no, never heard of it. That's why I thought there was no scientist making outlandish stupid statements.

432 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #423 sprucepinehollow

You are so transparent. Don't think I've forgotten your previous nonsense, disrespect and mischaracterizations.

433 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:43:09am

re: #417 Thanos

Your questions suggest that since you can't answer the post, you are questioning the character of the author.

434 FrogMarch  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:43:09am

What I find astonishing is that if Barack Obama's religious and other nefarious associations were attached to any Republican politician - than politician would have been skewered by the likes of Andrew Sullivan.

435 Gus  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:43:14am

Notice how it says:

Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science.

436 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:43:49am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

I'm a Christian and when my stint in the military is done, I am considering running for public office. I am sure I will be ridiculed by the MSM for my Christian faith but I don't believe that folks like Charles would jump on the bashing bandwagon. Why? Well, for one, my faith is personal to me and I have ABSOLUTELY NO desire to foist it onto folks who don't want to believe. If you want to discuss Christianity and my faith with me, then I am more than happy to converse but I WILL NOT force that discussion on anyone. Folks can call me delusional for being a Christian and that is that prerogative but they can rest in the knowledge that I WILL NOT try and teach their children what they think is delusional.

437 revGDright  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:43:54am

Exorcism is a job best left to the profesional. Hell, you don't know what you're going to conjur up!

438 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:44:11am

re: #424 RhymesWithRight

I think we are trying to discredit a politician who's under the influence of Discovery Institute and who thinks social conservative issues take priority over most other things.

Do you support his stance on discrimination against gays? Do you support his position on Stem cell research?

439 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:44:33am

re: #430 RhymesWithRight

(What's the point of arguing with this thin-skinned garbage?)

Gee, Charles, are you now arguing that those who disagree with you are garbage?

Good grief.

440 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:45:37am

re: #341 Teacake!

Being a Jewish girl and having read articles written by rabbis, you might want to redirect your question. The point I'm making is that people who argue against or for Creationism I believe aren't really interested in the facts.

Does that make opposing their plans to have their ignorance-fuelled crap taught to everyone's children as if it were valid science in any way less urgent?

441 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:46:23am

When creationists and ID'ers insist that the issue is not about religion, but about the 'weaknesses' in evolutionary theory, they're not telling the truth.

What are the theological implications of lying for Jesus?

442 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:46:30am

re: #433 sprucepinehollow

Your questions suggest that since you can't answer the post, you are questioning the character of the author.

No, my question shows that we constantly hear stories of this from the Discovery Institute, such as the overblown trumped up BS in expelled. My questions suggest that if it's happening shouldn't someone be doing something about it? My questions suggest that we need to identify the schools and teachers when we make these assertions.

443 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:46:41am

re: #422 Sharmuta

And you spoke with those other teachers to confirm the students' stories? Because teenagers never lie or exaggerate.

Why is that so hard to believe?

444 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:46:51am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

I don't know who you are, but for purposes of these comments, I'll assume that you are who you claim to be.

As far as I'm concerned, you have no right to judge Charles Johnson. Period. Second, you personally, as a teacher, may be acting with integrity in these matters. I have no way of knowing that. Nonetheless, attempting to legislate religion of any sort into a science class is a base perversion both of science and of religion. And you do ill to claim otherwise.

445 Janjan  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:46:53am
Now, on to a question.

Should creationism be taught in science classes in public schools?

No, but there is more to Jindal than that.

446 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:47:17am

re: #432 Sharmuta

Didn't think I was worthy of your notice... really.

Anyone who disagrees with you & the ev crew is an idiot or liar. That's where the arguments invariably go.

447 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:47:44am

re: #433 sprucepinehollow

So- read all those links that were provided for you before as you said you were going to do? Or did you blow them all off because you were more interested in making the "Darwinists" jump through your hoops?

448 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:48:21am

re: #446 sprucepinehollow


Anyone who disagrees with you & the ev crew is an idiot or liar. That's where the arguments invariably go.

Don't forget 'victim.'

449 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:48:52am

re: #440 Jimmah

Oops - I didn't notice on first read that you had said

The point I'm making is that people who argue against or for Creationism I believe aren't really interested in the facts.

Which makes your post much worse than I realised. Downding applied.

450 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:48:57am

re: #424 RhymesWithRight

So, you hang out with neo-Nazis, attend their conferences, and speak to their group sessions?

Or is that behavior only acceptable if a person is a GOP bigwig?

You know, I'd rather a nobody like you hung around with neo-Nazis than a guy who wants to be a leader of a mainstream political party. One reason I'm disgusted with the democrats is their open flirtation/association with ANSWER, ACORN, CPUSA, etc. How awful that you think I should just shrug off the sickos on the far right, or just shrug off the fact that they get face time, and most likely help influence, powerful members of the GOP.

It makes it much more difficult to paint the democrat party as the party of lunatics when the GOP has their own "special" groups out there too.

451 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:48:59am

re: #433 sprucepinehollow

Your questions suggest that since you can't answer the post, you are questioning the character of the author.

I think he was asking to know the school and maybe some of the details. I know if I had that info, I would probably contact the local school board and find out if they know that this is going on.

And, we have a lot of Lizards here, and some may be in the area or school district you are at, so, it could be useful to know.

I think you are making it all up, or else you would have no problem with supplying us with some details.

452 RhymesWithRight  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:49:07am

To answer the questions of several folks here, I won't disclose the school in question out of a desire to not speak ill of my employer -- especially because of how the matter was handled by my principal and superintendent. Suffice it to say that the situation was confirmed by multiple students in the class AND my colleague when I asked her about it.

When the matter was taken to our building principal, he took action to ensure that the students were not penalized for engaging in the legitimate classroom action of asking questions. When the teacher in question went to the district level, the superintendent backed the principal. On the other hand, it was also made clear that students who answered questions about what evolutionary theory states would lose points on assignments and/or tests for filing to properly answer, regardless of whether or not they personally hold to those views.

453 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:49:13am

re: #418 janjan

So what about the amateur exorcism when he was in college. You mean to tell me that no one else has participated in some wild and woolly stuff in college? What about seances, or wiccan bs, or whatever crazy sh*t people come up with when they are young and pretty stupid. That exorcism doesnt bother me at all.

Are you equating an exorcism with strip poker or tipping cows or panty raids or dancing naked in a fountain?

454 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:49:25am

re: #446 sprucepinehollow

Anyone who insults my fellow Lizards and mischaracterizes this blog is noticeable, in my opinion.

455 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:49:40am

re: #448 jaunte

Gotta break out the cookies.

456 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:49:57am

What school, what teacher?

Is this factual, or are you lieing for Phil and Casey at DI?

457 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:50:02am

re: #392 Walter L. Newton

Well I think, and I've heard people even imply, and I even believe it is being taught to our kids, that President Obama is part of all that "intelligent" infinite wisdom divine plan/stuff from the cosmos. Even Pelosi said the man was a "gift from God". I've also heard people say things like "the energy has changed in this country". IMHO that means something new age-like.

Let me just say that I believe humans to be spiritual beings (right or wrong) and BTW my husband is a geologist! :)

458 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:50:33am

re: #437 revGDright

Exorcism is a job best left to the profesional. Hell, you don't know what you're going to conjur up!


It's all delusion. Demonic posession was a way to address mental & physical maladies, back in the day.It should be abandoned like human sacrafice to insure good crops.

459 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:51:03am

re: #452 RhymesWithRight

Then what's the problem? Seems the school was able to handle the situation without the need of additional laws.

460 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:51:04am

re: #452 RhymesWithRight

To answer the questions of several folks here, I won't disclose the school in question out of a desire to not speak ill of my employer -- especially because of how the matter was handled by my principal and superintendent. Suffice it to say that the situation was confirmed by multiple students in the class AND my colleague when I asked her about it.

When the matter was taken to our building principal, he took action to ensure that the students were not penalized for engaging in the legitimate classroom action of asking questions. When the teacher in question went to the district level, the superintendent backed the principal. On the other hand, it was also made clear that students who answered questions about what evolutionary theory states would lose points on assignments and/or tests for filing to properly answer, regardless of whether or not they personally hold to those views.

Oh, I see. We're just supposed to take your word for the whole thing.

Gotcha.

461 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:51:23am

re: #453 MandyManners

Are you equating an exorcism with strip poker or tipping cows or panty raids or dancing naked in a fountain?

What if you stopped by the exorcism AFTER the poker game/ cow tipping/ panty raids/ dancing naked in the fountain/ multiple cases of beer night?
//

462 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:51:31am

re: #447 Sharmuta

I didn't get to all of them... Lots of other things to spend my time on. I read some very credible responses to Behe, and some not so very creditable responses by Behe. I'm still reading. Found an interesting link that is based on an evolutionary perspective, but claims to be balanced.

Thanks for asking.

463 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:51:49am

re: #446 sprucepinehollow

Didn't think I was worthy of your notice... really.

Anyone who disagrees with you & the ev crew is an idiot or liar. That's where the arguments invariably go.

I believe you are wrong. The issue is not with believing that the earth is 6000 years old, the issue is trying to force others to accept that as scientific fact. DI and the YEC'ers are free to believe whatever they want but when they use dishonest tactics to smear proven science with pseudo science and try and force religion down people's throats, they are liars. Idiot is in the eye of the beholder, I would call them blinded by an agenda.

464 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:52:45am

re: #460 Charles

Oh, I see. We're just supposed to take your word for the whole thing.

Gotcha.

Or else, you're a big Dawkins meanie.

465 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:52:47am

re: #442 Thanos

No, my question shows that we constantly hear stories of this from the Discovery Institute, such as the overblown trumped up BS in expelled. My questions suggest that if it's happening shouldn't someone be doing something about it? My questions suggest that we need to identify the schools and teachers when we make these assertions.

If these things are really happening, I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with the DI in an effort to get them to stop by calling the teachers on the carpet to answer for their cruel and pig-headed actions.

466 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:53:01am

re: #462 sprucepinehollow

When can we expect you apology for insulting the participants of this blog?

467 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:53:01am

re: #454 Sharmuta

My apologies to you and any insulted fellow lizards.

468 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:53:11am

re: #452 RhymesWithRight

I knew you wouldn't be forthcoming because it's a proably a bullshit lie. Now what does the good book say about bearing false witness?

On the other hand if this is going on we need to expose it, and stop it. Where's your courage?

469 RhymesWithRight  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:53:16am

Funky:

Like it or not, evolutionary theory is not complete, perfect, and beyond question or revision -- hence my use of the term. Like I said, I believe in evolution and I teach evolution as the best scientific explanation of the development of life in my classes. That does not mean that I dogmatically accept it as beyond question -- indeed, openness to new evidence and the further refinement means I cannot do so.

470 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:54:03am

re: #446 sprucepinehollow

Didn't think I was worthy of your notice... really.

Anyone who disagrees with you & the ev crew is an idiot or liar. That's where the arguments invariably go.

Where has anyone called anyone who believes differently an "idiot"?

Now, the word "liar" has been used quite a bit because it is a fact that DI lies to promote its agenda.

471 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:54:05am

re: #457 JustAHouseWife

Well I think, and I've heard people even imply, and I even believe it is being taught to our kids, that President Obama is part of all that "intelligent" infinite wisdom divine plan/stuff from the cosmos. Even Pelosi said the man was a "gift from God". I've also heard people say things like "the energy has changed in this country". IMHO that means something new age-like.

Let me just say that I believe humans to be spiritual beings (right or wrong) and BTW my husband is a geologist! :)

Well, you get back to us when something like this shows up in a bill or some political statement is made in reference to it.

And, we don't deal with "implications" here, we deal with quotable facts. So, I don't give you comment about "hearing" any note.

Freedom to believe is still a part of our constitution, and until that changes, or until the left tries to make some New Age religion part of a law, I'll hold off on the scary Obama and his beliefs.

472 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:54:26am

re: #469 RhymesWithRight

Like it or not, evolutionary theory is not complete, perfect, and beyond question or revision...

Name some of the imperfections in evolutionary theory.

473 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:54:28am

I'm not exactly sure what I'm apologizing for, but I'm sure you can help me there.

474 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:54:55am

I also think Global Warming is based on a pseudo religious idea of Eden!

475 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:55:28am

re: #473 sprucepinehollow

Then your apology is meaningless.

476 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:55:33am

re: #469 RhymesWithRight

What new evidence? The specious claptrap found in "Exploring Evolution?"

477 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:55:34am

re: #470 MandyManners

True, "idiot" was not used.

478 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:55:36am

re: #452 RhymesWithRight

Let me be precise-- you're saying that students who fail to correctly recite the evolutionary theory they've been taught in science class, but who BELIEVE differently, shouldn't be given a lower grade in science class for getting the answer wrong?

479 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:55:53am

re: #452 RhymesWithRight

To answer the questions of several folks here, I won't disclose the school in question out of a desire to not speak ill of my employer -- especially because of how the matter was handled by my principal and superintendent. Suffice it to say that the situation was confirmed by multiple students in the class AND my colleague when I asked her about it.

When the matter was taken to our building principal, he took action to ensure that the students were not penalized for engaging in the legitimate classroom action of asking questions. When the teacher in question went to the district level, the superintendent backed the principal. On the other hand, it was also made clear that students who answered questions about what evolutionary theory states would lose points on assignments and/or tests for filing to properly answer, regardless of whether or not they personally hold to those views.

That's the way to handle it.

480 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:55:58am

re: #474 JustAHouseWife

I also think Global Warming is based on a pseudo religious idea of Eden!

What the fuck?

481 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:56:44am

re: #461 sattv4u2

What if you stopped by the exorcism AFTER the poker game/ cow tipping/ panty raids/ dancing naked in the fountain/ multiple cases of beer night?
//

You'd probably go to sleep and wake up with a honking hangover.

482 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:57:27am

re: #453 MandyManners

Are you equating an exorcism with strip poker or tipping cows or panty raids or dancing naked in a fountain?

The problem is that exorcisms can be physically dangerous to the subject.
It is also psychologically dangerous for all involved. In a way you open your mind to insanity

483 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:58:10am

re: #391 Killgore Trout

coll site. My source for my claim about Jews and evolution was from here: Acceptance of Evolution by religion.

According to Kaspersky, this site is infected with the 'multipacked' virus.

484 RhymesWithRight  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:58:39am

Well, this discussion has reached an impasse.

After all, "LIAR" pretty well puts an end to any dialogue.

I don't know why I bothered.

485 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:58:41am

re: #475 Sharmuta

No credit for reading? You are a hard man./

486 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:59:02am

re: #474 JustAHouseWife

I also think Global Warming is based on a pseudo religious idea of Eden!

What does that have to do with the price of jambalaya in Lafourche Parish?

487 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:59:14am

re: #482 opnion
IIRC, the Catholic church has strict guidelines for sanctioned exorcism.
Don't know about other faiths or shamanistic exorcisms.

488 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:59:17am

Whenever this ridiculous creationist talking point about the "holes in evolutionary theory" comes up, I ask for one example.

So far, the only response has been a very loud silence.

489 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:59:23am

re: #477 sprucepinehollow

True, "idiot" was not used.

So, why did you use it?

490 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:59:36am

re: #469 RhymesWithRight

Funky:

Like it or not, evolutionary theory is not complete, perfect, and beyond question or revision -- hence my use of the term. Like I said, I believe in evolution and I teach evolution as the best scientific explanation of the development of life in my classes. That does not mean that I dogmatically accept it as beyond question -- indeed, openness to new evidence and the further refinement means I cannot do so.

LOL couldn't answer the neo-Nazi association question? You probably don't want to have this discussion with me either. I'm ABD in Biochemistry, research specialization was molecular biology. I did my grad work in KS; finished right when the creationists first reared their ugly heads there. I very rarely get into the meat of these discussions because you people aren't interested in factual or scientific discussions, and if I want to work that hard teaching science, I'll draw a paycheck.

KS now has a lackluster democrat governor. Golly, I just can't imagine how that happened.

/

491 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:59:38am

re: #484 RhymesWithRight

He who fight and run away
Live to fight another day!

Bye-bye! ;-)

492 Killgore Trout  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:59:47am

re: #483 Jimmah

Huh, I've been linking to that poll for over a year. Norton has never complained.

493 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:03am

re: #477 sprucepinehollow

True, "idiot" was not used.

But you said:

Anyone who disagrees with you & the ev crew is an idiot or liar. That's where the arguments invariably go.

So.... you were lying? And then you wonder why people get called liars on these threads. Maybe it's because they were, you know, lying. Kind of like you did.

494 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:08am

re: #457 JustAHouseWife

Well I think, and I've heard people even imply, and I even believe it is being taught to our kids, that President Obama is part of all that "intelligent" infinite wisdom divine plan/stuff from the cosmos. Even Pelosi said the man was a "gift from God". I've also heard people say things like "the energy has changed in this country". IMHO that means something new age-like.

Let me just say that I believe humans to be spiritual beings (right or wrong) and BTW my husband is a geologist! :)

The New Age stuff started with Clinton. Obama has taken it further, he is the ultimate New Age Shaman.

495 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:11am

re: #484 RhymesWithRight

Don't worry, Sharmuta will demand an apology on your behalf./

496 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:25am

re: #482 opnion

The problem is that exorcisms can be physically dangerous to the subject.
It is also psychologically dangerous for all involved. In a way you open your mind to insanity

I learned from an early age to stay away from such things as that and anything else that dabbled in spirits.

497 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:35am

re: #475 Sharmuta

Then your apology is meaningless.

Some people get used to saying things they don't really believe.
This is a problem with the example set by the Discovery Institute.

498 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:35am

re: #486 MandyManners
MMGW may cause the cayenne pepper crop to FAIL and thus driving up the price of spice used in jambalaya!

499 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:57am

re: #485 sprucepinehollow

I'm not a man. Please check your sexist assumptions in at the door.

500 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:00:58am

re: #485 sprucepinehollow

No credit for reading? You are a hard man./

*ahem*

Sharmuta is not a man.

501 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:01:00am

re: #353 rhymeswithright

I can't help but note a real religious bigotry in this post.

After all, let's consider the "charges" that would lead you to view Jindal as somehow unfit for the Presidency (or, presumably, any other office).

1) he promoted and signed a creationism bill (with help from the Discovery Institute)

Actually, it is not a creationism bill. Indeed, it merely permits teachers and students to recognize and discuss the fact that evolution is, in the end, a theory that is a work in progress and that the theory of evolution as it currently is propounded by scientists is not infallible and beyond question. It ultimately comes back to defending academic freedom.

The bill was specifically crafted by the Disco Institute to allow creationist teachers to bring Disco-Institute-produced 'supplementary materials' into public high school science classes. And once again we get the 'just a theory' canard I addressed back in #318, and the 'academic freedom' dodge (should that include the freedom to teach astrology, alchemy, and flat earth geocentrism as science?).

2) he took part in an amateur exorcism and claimed it cured a woman of cancer

Oh, dear -- he is religious, participated in a religious ritual, and believes that miracles can and do occur today. How frighteningly CHRISTIAN of him -- and we certainly can't let Christians have any influence in this country, given that they make up some 80% of the population. You sound like Dawkins here.

It's a finger-on-the-nuclear-button question. Can we trust someone who tried to cure a woman of cancer via ad hoc exorcism with a college student religious group with that button?

3) he pals around with people on the extreme edges of fundamentalist Christianity

Damn that Jindal for a tolerant individual -- he has friends and allies who are FUNDAMRENTALIST CHRISTIANS. That's flat out religious bigotry. Indeed, it is religious mcCarthyism.

Beware of those who are overly tolerant of the intolerant.

4) he pals around with. . . at least one person who has associated with outright neo-Nazis

Or, put differently, he pals around with David Barton, the former Vice Chairman of the Republican Party of Texas. Nice of you to leave that part out. You also link to extreme left-wing groups in order to do the smearing. -- what next, Daily Kos as a reliable source?

The fact that Barton once held his Texas position does not inoculate him against his other unsavory connections.

Now it seems pretty clear to me that you don't like Jindal.

You apparently don't have any use for fundamentalists.

I'd even go so far that you don't have much use for Christians in general -- at least not ones who really believe in their faith and let it impact their daily lives and view of the world.

But I can't help but wonder if the sort of attacks you use in this piece might not be considered anti-Semitic if they were deployed, for example, against a Joe Lieberman and his associations with "extreme Orthodox Jews".

Once again, someone grabbing for the fucking victim card! God, it gets so tiresome! Wanna Troll House Martyr Cookie?

The problem is with someone who signed a Disco-Institute-crafted stealth creationism-in-public-education bill into state law; that's NOT the sorta person that should be trusted with the national educational agenda. Do the religion thing in church, at home, in private religious school, even on the streetcorner or on a soapbox in the park; but don't EVER dare attempt to tell me it's okay to shoehorn it into public school science class and indoctrinate other peoples' kids with your pet sectarian religious dogmas!

502 Bloodnok  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:01:18am

re: #485 sprucepinehollow

No credit for reading? You are a hard man./

And you are a blind fool.

Check the avatar.

503 alegrias  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:01:22am

Lurking here is like watching a white-hot tennis match in Dubai!
Lots of Big Bangs.

504 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:01:50am

re: #474 JustAHouseWife

I also think Global Warming is based on a pseudo religious idea of Eden!

LOL

somewhere, some poor bastard is trying to teach this woman's children science....and probably sitting through parent-teacher conferences because of her "concerns" about the curriculum.

505 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:01:58am

re: #497 jaunte

High five that, yo.

506 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:02:10am

re: #493 Sharmuta

So.... you were lying? And then you wonder why people get called liars on these threads. Maybe it's because they were, you know, lying. Kind of like you did.

Maybe she/he just got caught up in emotions and lashed out.

507 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:02:41am

re: #498 pingjockey

MMGW may cause the cayenne pepper crop to FAIL and thus driving up the price of spice used in jambalaya!

Oh, noez. Higher priced pepper spray!

508 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:02:42am

re: #489 MandyManners

I was generalizing. I could probably dig through the post and make a case that "idiot" is often implied, but honestly I don't think it is worth the effort. If I'm not willing to do that, I shouldn't have used the word. I'm pinned. OK?

509 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:04:43am

re: #508 sprucepinehollow

I was generalizing. I could probably dig through the post and make a case that "idiot" is often implied, but honestly I don't think it is worth the effort. If I'm not willing to do that, I shouldn't have used the word. I'm pinned. OK?

Have you thought about the point I raised about DI actually lying? Charles has multiple links about it. It's really shameful.

510 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:04:49am

re: #507 MandyManners
Terrible, terrible! Jeez, I get a kick out of these threads. Why is it so hard for some folks to understand this simple equation....
Creation=Faith
Evolution=Science.

511 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:04:55am

re: #500 MandyManners

I realized when I wrote that I might be talking to a woman. 'You are a hard woman.' just doesn't have the same ring. That's probably sexist too.

TRULY sorry Sharmuta

512 Jetpilot1101  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:05:45am

re: #510 pingjockey

Terrible, terrible! Jeez, I get a kick out of these threads. Why is it so hard for some folks to understand this simple equation....
Creation=Faith
Evolution=Science.

...and having faith and believing in evolution are not mutually exclusive.

513 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:05:45am

re: #487 pingjockey

IIRC, the Catholic church has strict guidelines for sanctioned exorcism.
Don't know about other faiths or shamanistic exorcisms.

Right , the Catholic Church rarely allows the Exorcism ritual & very few priests opt now to be "Qualified" to perform exorcisms.
I get the feeling that a lot of the Church leadership would like the whole thing to go away & rely on medicine.

514 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:06:29am

re: #496 MandyManners

I learned from an early age to stay away from such things as that and anything else that dabbled in spirits.

Excellent policy.

515 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:06:52am

re: #496 MandyManners

I learned from an early age to stay away from such things as that and anything else that dabbled in spirits.

I love to dabble with spirits. Vodka or scotch preferred.

516 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:07:33am

re: #369 srmoss

And when science (although that's a pretty ambiguous term) isn't able to convince people of the theory of evolution, they further try to make their point by name calling and dripping condescension.

People who turn their eyes away from the empirical evidence so they can remain willfully ignorant remind me of that Catholic bishop who refused to look through Galileo's telescope to see mountains on the Moon, because mountains would be imperfections, and all celestial objects were made by God and must be geometrically perfect.

517 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:07:53am

re: #515 Ziggy

I love to dabble with spirits. Vodka or scotch preferred.

Yes please, I'll have a vodka.

518 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:08:36am

re: #509 MandyManners

Yes, I've read some of those posts. I think "lying" is probably accurate at least in some cases. To argue from that to "all creationists lie." Is a stretch. Rhymeswithright, writing from a evolutionary perspective, made a very credible and balanced post. I don't think that person was lying. (Notice I didn't say "he?")

519 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:09:19am

re: #512 Jetpilot1101
That is a fact. Include me in that group. Look at the Hubble pictures. Some of those are awe inspiring. IMO, if a being that could/did create the universe, sowed the seeds of life through out said universe, it isn't going to worry about picking one little ball of rock, dirt and water to create life in all its myriad shapes, types, sizes.

520 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:09:27am

Notice: 'rhymeswithright' came in here spewing insults at me -- "bigot, McCarthyite, etc." -- then stormed off in a huff when I refused to take his word on a story about kids who were threatened with bad grades.

Meanwhile, he conveniently avoided the question about naming one of those "imperfections in evolutionary theory" he claimed to know all about.

521 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:09:35am

Let's say it is 2012. Let's say the unemployment rate is at 14% and inflation is starting to spiral out of control. Let's say the deficit is stuck at 1.2 trillion dollars. Let's also say that America has begun to retreat from Afghanistan because of serious losses over there and Iraq has begun a civil war since Obama pulled all the troops out.

The election is between Jindal and Obama. Who here would be voting for Obama's second term because of the school board issue?

522 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:09:51am

re: #517 opnion

Yes please, I'll have a vodka.

It definately is in order with posts like this one. On the rocks with a lime wedge please.

523 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

That makes you no different than Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

Funny how many 'sciencepeoplewhobelieveinandteachevolution' that post on creationism threads seem to have the same attitude towards Richard Dawkins as your average pulpit bashing bible thumpin' creationist.

524 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:10:45am

re: #518 sprucepinehollow

Yes, I've read some of those posts. I think "lying" is probably accurate at least in some cases. To argue from that to "all creationists lie." Is a stretch. Rhymeswithright, writing from a evolutionary perspective, made a very credible and balanced post. I don't think that person was lying. (Notice I didn't say "he?")

Charles has NEVER said "all creationists lie". NEVER.

525 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:10:46am

re: #512 Jetpilot1101

...and having faith and believing in evolution are not mutually exclusive.

Not at all.

526 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:11:08am

re: #492 Killgore Trout

Huh, I've been linking to that poll for over a year. Norton has never complained.

Maybe Kaspersky knows something that Norton doesn't?

527 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:11:25am

re: #513 opnion
There is evil and demons but how many exorcism were performed on people that were clinically insane or had a brain tumor or some other problem, that wasn't able to be diagnosed or treated back when.

528 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:11:26am

re: #521 Edge

That's likely an overly speculative choice. Some of us are having this discussion partly because we want a stronger fis-con candidate for the Republicans.

529 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:12:02am

re: #521 Edge

Let's say it's now and you have a politician with wobbly Knees trying to climb to the national stage. I say stop him before he gets there because there are many better leaders capable of racing up those stairs in the Republican party.

530 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:12:09am

re: #521 Edge

Let's say it is 2012. Let's say the unemployment rate is at 14% and inflation is starting to spiral out of control. Let's say the deficit is stuck at 1.2 trillion dollars. Let's also say that America has begun to retreat from Afghanistan because of serious losses over there and Iraq has begun a civil war since Obama pulled all the troops out.

The election is between Jindal and Obama. Who here would be voting for Obama's second term because of the school board issue?

This is not just a "school board issue". It shows the man's willingness to give up his state's schools to a group that wants to impose religion on public schools.

531 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:12:34am

I do not believe demons exist. And exorcisms belong in the Dark Ages, not in the 21st century.

There. I said it.

532 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:12:49am

re: #522 Ziggy

It definately is in order with posts like this one. On the rocks with a lime wedge please.


I got on an ID thread last summer on a Friday night on the deck , in the dark with vodka & cigars. Damn, it was entertaining!

533 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:13:04am

re: #521 Edge

Let's say it is 2012. Let's say the unemployment rate is at 14% and inflation is starting to spiral out of control. Let's say the deficit is stuck at 1.2 trillion dollars. Let's also say that America has begun to retreat from Afghanistan because of serious losses over there and Iraq has begun a civil war since Obama pulled all the troops out.

The election is between Jindal and Obama. Who here would be voting for Obama's second term because of the school board issue?

Let's say it is 2009, and because of the great effort of Charles and other conservative bloggers, that Jindal and his ilk are just a memory and we have a real conservative in line for the nomination.

You want to sit on your ass now and play catch up or make some sane decisions while we still have time?

534 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:13:23am

re: #528 jaunte

That's likely an overly speculative choice. Some of us are having this discussion partly because we want a stronger fis-con candidate for the Republicans.

So who do you have in mind?

535 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:14:21am

re: #533 Walter L. Newton
Dinged you up for that one.

536 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:14:34am

re: #430 RhymesWithRight

(What's the point of arguing with this thin-skinned garbage?)

Gee, Charles, are you now arguing that those who disagree with you are garbage?


if the bag fits.....

537 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:14:41am

re: #533 Walter L. Newton

Let's say it is 2009, and because of the great effort of Charles and other conservative bloggers, that Jindal and his ilk are just a memory and we have a real conservative in line for the nomination.

You want to sit on your ass now and play catch up or make some sane decisions while we still have time?

So who is going to be the real conservative?

538 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:14:42am

re: #531 Charles

I do not believe demons exist. And exorcisms belong in the Dark Ages, not in the 21st century.

There. I said it.

Amen to that!

539 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:14:51am

re: #459 Sharmuta

Then what's the problem? Seems the school was able to handle the situation without the need of additional laws.


That's the thing - the use of the legal system to promote an activist agenda.

What's the difference between activists using the legal system to force creationism into the science class or activists using the legal system to force man-made climate change into the science class?

None.

540 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:15:21am

re: #524 MandyManners

I wasn't talking about Charles. I was observing that the tone here SEEMS to be creationist=liar... or something else less than positive.

541 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:15:42am

re: #537 Edge

So who is going to be the real conservative?

You won't answer my question will you? Ass.

542 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:16:30am

re: #527 pingjockey

There is evil and demons but how many exorcism were performed on people that were clinically insane or had a brain tumor or some other problem, that wasn't able to be diagnosed or treated back when.


I guess belief in evil & belief in demons are not necessarily the same.
I can believe in God without buying into the idea of the Devil.
However I could be wrong.
I agree with you, lots of poor suffering people were thought to be posessed & were therefore not properly treated.

543 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:16:46am

re: #531 Charles

I do not believe demons exist. And exorcisms belong in the Dark Ages, not in the 21st century.

There. I said it.

OK smart guy. Explain the Chicago Cubs

/

544 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:18:06am

re: #541 Walter L. Newton

You won't answer my question will you? Ass.

How can I make a sane decision if you offer no other choice?

545 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:18:16am

re: #543 Shug

OK smart guy. Explain the Chicago Cubs

/

That's an upding, but I'm a White Sox fan.

546 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:18:58am

re: #540 sprucepinehollow

I wasn't talking about Charles. I was observing that the tone here SEEMS to be creationist=liar... or something else less than positive.

I don't get that tone at all, and I'm sorry that you do.

It matters not one whit to me what a person believes. What matters is if she or he tries to force others to believe.

547 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:19:19am

re: #542 opnion
I guess I worded that poorly. Evil can exist without demons. Demon was a crappy term. Posessed by something not explainable? Hell, I don't know.

548 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:19:45am

re: #529 Thanos

Let's say it's now and you have a politician with wobbly Knees trying to climb to the national stage. I say stop him before he gets there because there are many better leaders capable of racing up those stairs in the Republican party.

I understand your point, but who are they?

549 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:19:57am

re: #531 Charles

M. Scott Peck, a Christian psychiatrist, claimed that 99% of alleged cases of demonic possession were actually psychiatric illnesses, but that there was a troubling 1% that he thought were real. His book describes this phenomenon:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

And your beliefs on these points, while reasonable, are ones upon which people of faith are likely to differ WITHOUT demanding that their contrary beliefs be taught in science class! ;-)

550 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:19:58am

re: #534 Edge

So who do you have in mind?

I have no one yet, but Jindal is not the answer.

551 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:21:04am

re: #548 Edge
We don't know yet. Did anyone know who obambi was 36 mos ago? Other than the jr. senator from Illinois.

552 ladycatnip  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:21:25am

#530 MandyManners

This is not just a "school board issue". It shows the man's willingness to give up his state's schools to a group that wants to impose religion on public schools.

Bingo. Then that opens the door to islam in particular and every other religion wanting their beliefs taught, or at the very least, acknowledged in science class. There'd be no time to teach.

Which is why parents are free to send their kids to private Christian schools.

553 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:21:30am

re: #531 Charles

I do not believe demons exist. And exorcisms belong in the Dark Ages, not in the 21st century.

There. I said it.

Demons do not exist & exorcisms should not have even been done in the Dark Ages. You just know that a lot of people were accused of being posessed as some form of retribution.

554 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:22:03am

re: #544 Edge

How can I make a sane decision if you offer no other choice?

Don't play the stupid card with me. You know my comment had nothing to do with a particular politician, my comment was all based on a concept. The concept that it's better to shake this shit out of the weeds now, then to be held to a bad decision later.

And just to waylay your next question, I would stick to my principals and NOT vote for Jindal.

Wouldn't you?

555 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:22:48am

Spirituality and Science in the Bible.
Or how to be a Bible Believing Christian & Accept Evolutionary Evidence as Fat.

Given the hysteria over the “overwhelming” percentage of creationism threads at LGF (/sarc). I give the Lizard a perspective on how the Bible itself divides the two subjects. Furthermore that the Bible even supports holding belief in God the Creator of the Universe and all things in it, and the knowledge of evolution as have the weight of evidence supporting it as the theory (SI definition, not common usage) simultaneously and without contradiction. That Christians can and should accept the scientific evidence and not try to bend the evidence to fit a text written to a particular non-scientific purpose. It is a fundamental misaiming to use the Bible to try to understand the physical world around us. The Bible's purpose is to apprehend the unseen spiritual world.

The Bible makes clear there are two realms:

Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; and the tree of life, in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Two trees; one of life and the other of knowledge. Notice the tree knowledge is of all knowledge both good and evil. Even good knowledge is not on the tree of life. While God would have preferred Adam and Eve had chosen the tree of life, they did not, as a result we are living lives on the tree of knowledge. However that is a completely different subject.

What are these trees and how do they apply to the creationist discussions on LGF?

The tree of life; The “life” of the tree of life refers to the divine spiritual life of God and our relationship with God, this is one realm. The tree of knowledge contains all things which are not God or associated with our relationship with God.

From the start the Bible divides the two realms the metaphysical spiritual realm and the physical knowledge realm. This realms are clearly separate and distinct, two trees.

This separation is further emphasized.
II Cor. 3:6b
...not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

God is contained in scripture as Spirit, but the scripture must be read spiritually to understand. If one is to read it by the letter, literally, it is no longer spirit, but the tree of life but the tree of knowledge. Knowledge of the word (Bible) “kills” the spiritual understanding and replaces it with understanding by knowledge. As shown above knowledge is not the realm in which to find God.

I believe it is abundantly clear that science is in the realm of knowledge, and the Bible's function is in the spiritual realm, and this conclusion is reached from the Bible itself. It even goes so far as to warn against using the Bible as knowledge instead of spirituality, that such a use will cause separation from the spiritual.

It is theological misaiming for Christians to use the Bible or it's creation story as science in an attempt to spread the message of the Bible.

(cont)

556 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:22:53am

re: #418 janjan

After careful thought, i'm going against the tide here and giving this post an UPDING. Why? In college, I attended 2 "seances" (hey,, it was a Saturday night, no good parties on campus and I was in the middle of my 2nd 40 oz Miller High Life), If someone had told me there was an exorcism going on in a dorm, I would have been there instead!

NOW ,,,upding aside, the larger issue is for Jindal, who has higher political aspirations, to get out in front of this and assure the populace that his attendence there WAS just out of youthful curiosity. If he doesn't, come 2012, the secularsist amongst others will have a feild day with him (and rightfully so)

as alwasys, IMHO

557 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:23:44am

re: #471 Walter L. Newton

Well, you get back to us when something like this shows up in a bill or some political statement is made in reference to it.

And, we don't deal with "implications" here, we deal with quotable facts. So, I don't give you comment about "hearing" any note.

Freedom to believe is still a part of our constitution, and until that changes, or until the left tries to make some New Age religion part of a law, I'll hold off on the scary Obama and his beliefs.

I have no beef with you or anyone really! "We don't deal with implications here" ....Just watch Oprah, Ellen's show too (which I enjoy watching sometimes). I can dig up the quote from Pelosi. She said it on the floor of the Senate if I recall right, but its Saturday and I have a life!

Oh but to the two who dinged me down...whatever.
The Earth has never been an Eden!

558 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:24:21am

re: #413 RhymesWithRight

And Sharmuta -- i didn't argue that evolution was undermined by any current evidence. You assert, ex cathedra, that the bill is nothing more than a stealth creationism bill. As a teacher, I've had students come to me complaining that they have been threatened with lower grades for even raising questions about the sanctity of evolution. That is what this bill addresses -- and is a key academic freedom issue in my book. Besides, it is not creationism to admit that there are holes and gaps and questions in the currently accepted evolutionary model -- it is intellectual honesty that those of us who believe (and teach) evolution must be willing to accept, admit, and acknowledge even as we stand up for evolution as the best available theory.

My best guess is that they told the teachers they didn't even wanna learn evolution because they had been brainwashed by their parents and/or preachers that it was Godless atheism, and were informed by their teachers that there would be test and grade consequences to refusing to learn the class curriculum material.

And incomplete does not entail incorrect. To invoke an appeal to mystery and spookily intone that there are things we DON'T know does not invalidate the brass tacks fact that there are plenty of things we DO know, and one of the things we know is that the core tenets of evolutionary theory - random genetic mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental selection - are among the most empirically supported in all of science, and at this point are beyond rational statistical doubt.

559 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:24:27am

(cont)

The Bible does in fact weigh in on knowledge, science and acceptance of physical evidence. First of all knowledge is prized in the Bible, there are many references to knowledge. It's valuable for someone to be knowledgeable for it leads to wisdom. Simple put it's better to be knowledgeable than ignorant, a knowledgeable person is more useful in all respects.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; but the glory of kings is to search out a thing.

We are meant to discover the world. It is part and parcel to who we are, made in God's image and likeness with curiosity seek knowledge and the intellect to understand. God has hidden things, both spiritual and physical. It is glory to those at the top of various fields, the kings of their subjects to find and reveal them. Since we are on the path of knowledge, we are not only compelled in our very make up to pursue knowledge we even have God's permission, his blessing to find it.

We are seekers of knowledge, whether divinely inspired or a product of evolution we are seekers. What of the validity of the evidence we find.

How can we know the truth of evidence. The Bible speaks to this also.

Psalms 19:1,2
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.

Please note the display is in the realm of knowledge.

Psalm 8:3
When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,

Col. 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

God and his creation are inextricably linked. Creation can and should increase our faith, however we understand and creation through knowledge. That knowledge can cut both ways, it can strengthen or weaken our faith.

God has certain attributes, righteousness and justice (Psa 89:14) truth (John 17:17). When God and creation are inextricably linked, and creation is one of God's physical testimonies would it follows that the creation would also have these attributes.

Now we have a scriptural basis for first seeking out knowledge of the physical world and confirming the validity of that knowledge.

When we look at the evidence for evolution, it comes from quantum physics, geology, biology, genetics and a whole host of disciplines. Each piece of evidence is taken from creation and examined. This examined creation to the Christian should speak two things, one that is more knowledge of God, and that it contains his attributes, that it is in fact TRUE.

This brings to light the second fundamental misaiming of the ID / Creationists. That we are given God's blessing to understand the world around us and the evidence we find is truthful. That this evidence is not contradicted by the Bible, it is validated in the realm of knowledge. A knowledge that in proper context is not anti-faith but should encourage faith.

This leads me to concluded that:
Those who've taken up the ID / Creationism cause have mistakenly mixed the spiritual realm of the Bible with knowledge, and are using the Bible in a way of knowledge which diminishes the spiritual understanding of the Bible.

They in taking the Bible in the way of the letter, have missed that God and God's truth are in creation for us to discover and appreciate.

Furthermore their reading of the letter of the Bible has caused them to resort to lies and deceit to push their misunderstanding of the Bible.

As a Christian, from a Christian perspective, using the Bible itself I have concluded that the ID / Creationists are misaiming and I have a duty to speak out against their objectives outlined in the Wedge Document.

560 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:24:27am

re: #548 Edge

Not the topic of the thread, but Jindal is not among them. Period.

561 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:24:46am

re: #549 quickjustice

M. Scott Peck, a Christian psychiatrist, claimed that 99% of alleged cases of demonic possession were actually psychiatric illnesses, but that there was a troubling 1% that he thought were real. His book describes this phenomenon:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

And your beliefs on these points, while reasonable, are ones upon which people of faith are likely to differ WITHOUT demanding that their contrary beliefs be taught in science class! ;-)

I have no doubt that there are people who think demons are real, and exorcisms can "drive them out." I'm familiar with M. Scott Peck.

I think this viewpoint is atavistic, and extremely dangerous because it prevents people from getting the kind of help they really need, whether it's psychological or medical.

562 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:24:57am

re: #494 opnion

The New Age stuff started with Clinton. Obama has taken it further, he is the ultimate New Age Shaman.

Thanks for understanding what I was saying. :)

563 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:24:58am

re: #530 MandyManners

This is not just a "school board issue". It shows the man's willingness to give up his state's schools to a group that wants to impose religion on public schools.

So do you have evidence that religion is being imposed in Louisiana public schools? After all, the SCOTUS has ruled that creationism cannot be taught in the schools.

564 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:25:51am

re: #556 sattv4u2

2 drunken seances? You're definitely hell-bound, my friend! ;-)

565 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:26:08am

re: #546 MandyManners

It matters not one whit to me what a person believes. What matters is if she or he tries to force others to believe.

In our schools, yes. I'm not sure it is possible to force adults to believe something they refuse to believe.

566 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:26:10am

re: #560 Thanos

Not the topic of the thread, but Jindal is not among them. Period.

So you would vote Obama if Jindal is the GOP nominee?

567 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:27:17am

re: #563 Edge

So do you have evidence that religion is being imposed in Louisiana public schools? After all, the SCOTUS has ruled that creationism cannot be taught in the schools.

Have you missed every single article I've posted on this subject?

568 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:27:28am

re: #551 pingjockey

We don't know yet. Did anyone know who obambi was 36 mos ago? Other than the jr. senator from Illinois.

Peck's book "People of the Lie" is awesome.

569 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:27:49am

re: #561 Charles

To your point: Christians believe that there's a spiritual dimension to healing. 'Nuff said.

570 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:28:03am

re: #564 quickjustice

2 drunken seances? You're definitely hell-bound, my friend! ;-)

What can I say! The 1st one,,, the person "leading" the seance was THE hottest girl on campus! AND,,,, most of her freinds were a close 2nd

The 2nd one ,,, well ,,,,, I was HOPING she was there, as well as her entourage !

If she were attending or performing the exorcism, I would have volunteered to be the excorcisee!

571 Natasha  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:28:39am

re: #418 janjan

So what about the amateur exorcism when he was in college. You mean to tell me that no one else has participated in some wild and woolly stuff in college? What about seances, or wiccan bs, or whatever crazy sh*t people come up with when they are young and pretty stupid. That exorcism doesnt bother me at all.

Look... His participation in it would not be a big deal. Whatever. My little underground "drinking club" does things that will make some people want to chop my head off, whatever... The problem is, the man is trying to impose his beliefs on others, by means of force, by passing a law mandating the teaching of creationism in friggin' SCIENCE classes. The point people here are trying to make is: there is no scientific proof of 5000-year-ago creation; there is a lot of evidence pointing at life evolving over a long period of time; YET: nobody implies that there is no God... Leave THAT particular debate to philosophy classes. Because science deals with observable, quantifiable facts. And, to be honest with you, the observable and quantifiable stuff weighs mightily in favor of evolution.

572 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:29:10am

re: #552 ladycatnip

#530 MandyManners


Bingo. Then that opens the door to islam in particular and every other religion wanting their beliefs taught, or at the very least, acknowledged in science class. There'd be no time to teach.

Which is why parents are free to send their kids to private Christian schools.

Or, private Jewish schools or private Muslim schools or private WHATEVER schools.

573 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:29:31am

re: #562 JustAHouseWife

Thanks for understanding what I was saying. :)

De nada, you were clear.

574 Natasha  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:29:40am

re: #517 opnion

Yes please, I'll have a vodka.

I will have a double, extra dry martini, shaken, not stirred. Oh, did I mention I want "Russkii Standart" or "Luksusowa"?

575 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:29:57am

re: #566 Edge

So you would vote Obama if Jindal is the GOP nominee?

And you must have MISSED my answer to your question, which I KNEW you were going to ask next, since you haven't ANSWERED a single question put to you, BECAUSE you are either being dishonest on purpose OR you are STUCK ON STUPID.

I would stick to my principals and NOT vote for Jindal. That's doesn't mean I would vote for OBAMA.

Wouldn't you? (like you'll answer he question)

576 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:30:19am

re: #566 Edge

So you would vote Obama if Jindal is the GOP nominee?

I won't vote for Jindal, period.

There are hundreds of Republican congressmen, many senators, thousands of rising stars in state legislatures, and many Republican governors. If you can't find someone better than Jindal to get behind it's because you are not looking.

577 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:30:56am

re: #574 Natasha

I will have a double, extra dry martini, shaken, not stirred. Oh, did I mention I want "Russkii Standart" or "Luksusowa"?

Wait, I have to run out & get it!

578 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:31:06am

re: #567 Charles

Have you missed every single article I've posted on this subject?

No. But where is the example of a teacher teaching creationism or religion?

Here's my prediction. Sooner or later, some teacher will try to teach creationism under the cover of these new policies. Next, the ACLU and other pro-science groups will step in. What is likely to happen is that the school will back down, but if it goes to court, the school will lose.

579 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:31:10am

re: #570 sattv4u2

"Hands-on" healing is often the best! ;-)

580 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:31:28am

re: #561 Charles

I have no doubt that there are people who think demons are real, and exorcisms can "drive them out." I'm familiar with M. Scott Peck.

I think this viewpoint is atavistic, and extremely dangerous because it prevents people from getting the kind of help they really need.

I like him due what I've read about sociopathology and the absence of a conscience. Sociopaths and psychopaths are not amenable to treatment.

581 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:31:51am

re: #418 janjan

So what about the amateur exorcism when he was in college. You mean to tell me that no one else has participated in some wild and woolly stuff in college? What about seances, or wiccan bs, or whatever crazy sh*t people come up with when they are young and pretty stupid. That exorcism doesnt bother me at all.

Nor the fact that he celebrated it in an article he wrote for the New Oxford Review?

I'll tell you what this shit remonds me of; it reminds me of the time I was suddenly struck with a cluster headache (for those of you who don't know, they eat migraines for breakfast) in Wal Mart. I began stumbling about, and blindly groping for a wall or shelf to lean on. A woman solicitously asked me what was the matter with me (because something obviously was). I answered as best I was able that I'd suddenly been stricken with a cluster headache.

She grabbed my head with both hands, smacked her forehead into mine, and shouted "HEAL!" The pain this caused me was excruciating and intense. I literally scrteamed, and was barely able to redirect my impulse to lash out into the action of twisting away from her, out of her grasp, and fleeing down the aisle.

582 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:32:01am

re: #563 Edge

So do you have evidence that religion is being imposed in Louisiana public schools? After all, the SCOTUS has ruled that creationism cannot be taught in the schools.

WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN?

583 opnion  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:32:11am

Later Gators, I'm off to see Gran Torino.

584 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:32:20am

re: #579 quickjustice

"Hands-on" healing is often the best! ;-)

I wouldn;'t have minded if she also spoke to me in "tongues"!

585 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:32:32am

re: #568 MandyManners
Who and what is Peck and his book Mandy?

586 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:32:47am

re: #565 sprucepinehollow

In our schools, yes. I'm not sure it is possible to force adults to believe something they refuse to believe.

Many of the people associated with the DI want to impose a theocracy not just in the schools but all over America.

587 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:34:20am

re: #581 Salamantis

The pain this caused me was excruciating and intense

Yeah ,, but you momentarily forgot about your cluster headache for a while, so it WORKED !

//

588 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:34:45am

re: #585 pingjockey

Who and what is Peck and his book Mandy?

Check out his Wiki page.

Researching sociopathology helped me immensely during my divorce from my X, a true-blue, dyed-in-the-wool, admitted sociopath.

589 Racer X  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:35:21am

re: #531 Charles

I do not believe demons exist. And exorcisms belong in the Dark Ages, not in the 21st century.

There. I said it.

The demons made you say that.

/

590 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:35:26am

re: #581 Salamantis

LOL! This reminds me of the guy who was seen beating his head against the wall. When asked why, he replied, "Because it feels so good when I stop!"

591 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:35:27am

re: #430 RhymesWithRight

(What's the point of arguing with this thin-skinned garbage?)

Gee, Charles, are you now arguing that those who disagree with you are garbage?

No, just that your post was. But intentional and malevolent misconstruals such as this provide evidence that the misconstrual might be true.

592 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:35:40am

re: #588 MandyManners
Thank you. I'll check it out.

593 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:36:16am

re: #584 sattv4u2

ROFLMAO!

594 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:37:19am

re: #433 sprucepinehollow

Your questions suggest that since you can't answer the post, you are questioning the character of the author.

It would be far from the first time that we have caught creationists Lying For Jesus.

595 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:37:35am

re: #585 pingjockey

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

596 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:37:41am

Yep, now that 3 or 4 of use all put the same question to Edge, he runs away.

597 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #595 quickjustice
Thank you!

598 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:38:35am

re: #589 Racer X

Paraphrasing: "The Devil made him do it."

599 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:39:02am

re: #452 RhymesWithRight

To answer the questions of several folks here, I won't disclose the school in question out of a desire to not speak ill of my employer -- especially because of how the matter was handled by my principal and superintendent. Suffice it to say that the situation was confirmed by multiple students in the class AND my colleague when I asked her about it.

When the matter was taken to our building principal, he took action to ensure that the students were not penalized for engaging in the legitimate classroom action of asking questions. When the teacher in question went to the district level, the superintendent backed the principal. On the other hand, it was also made clear that students who answered questions about what evolutionary theory states would lose points on assignments and/or tests for filing to properly answer, regardless of whether or not they personally hold to those views.

I would assume that there are textbooks in that school. What textbooks would these students be contradicting regarding evolution? From your statements you absolutely must be aware of the answer to that question.

The only scenario that makes sense in your description is that the students didn't understand evolution and were scored for that, or that they lied or that the teacher lied.

You know the details. Stop being so coy.

600 Natasha  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:39:44am

re: #586 MandyManners

Many of the people associated with the DI want to impose a theocracy not just in the schools but all over America.

I agree and I cannot express it adequately how much I am opposed to it. People who dare call themselves " conservative" who are yet hell-bent on enslaving your very mind are no better than the rabid socialists/ communists/ fascists. Like I said before, what we see is but another virulent strain of that age-old cancer_ collectivism.

601 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:40:17am

re: #446 sprucepinehollow

Didn't think I was worthy of your notice... really.

Anyone who disagrees with you & the ev crew is an idiot or liar. That's where the arguments invariably go.

Why should the two be mutually exclusive?

/

602 kynna  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:40:52am

I just want to say one thing about the illustrious David Gregory with Jindal. I believe Gregory might at some point (in the future when Gov J.'s got the nomination sewn up) ask Jindal about the exorcism. I think he'll avoid the Creationism issue if he thinks there is any support for it. The polls indicate a lot of people are not averse to the idea of creationism, so they might pull things out for a Jindal. Therefore, Gregory will ignore that issue. The only one that really counts.

When we include the Whacky Exorcism in the list of Jindal no-no's, we give the media something to focus on -- Crazy Jindal -- rather than the actual issue that they seem to be interested in ignoring (Why? I don't know -- maybe a GOP setup for 2010-2012? Paranoia will destroy ya.) ;D. Because exorcism is not a policy issue, this particular focus on it is all about the individual practicing it. They knock out Jindal via the Whacky Exorcism story, and the problem of Creationism in science class continues. You just don't have Jindal to kick around anymore.

603 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:41:18am

re: #474 JustAHouseWife

I also think Global Warming is based on a pseudo religious idea of Eden!

Not true. I have myself observed that a lot of the more hysterical global warming alarmists do seem to carry around with them a kind of displaced religious vision - the garden of eden, original sin, atonement through suffering and self-denial, the piety of poverty etc - but that isn't what the science is based on.

604 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:41:28am

re: #582 MandyManners

WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN?

Where is the evidence that religion is being taught in Louisiana schools? If you can cite an example, we can contact the ACLU as teaching a school board policy does not nullify the SCOTUS.

605 Natasha  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:41:29am

re: #589 Racer X

The demons made you say that.

/

What if I like my demons? Think about it: you don't even have to go anywhere or call anyone to have fun!

606 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:41:55am

re: #600 Natasha

Religion can be liberating or enslaving. Charles is fighting the slavers, for which I'm extremely grateful!

607 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:43:03am

re: #600 Natasha

I agree and I cannot express it adequately how much I am opposed to it. People who dare call themselves " conservative" who are yet hell-bent on enslaving your very mind are no better than the rabid socialists/ communists/ fascists. Like I said before, what we see is but another virulent strain of that age-old cancer_ collectivism.

I disagree on the collectivism. To me, it's the age-old desire to dominate others.

608 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:43:09am

re: #578 Edge

No. But where is the example of a teacher teaching creationism or religion?

Here's my prediction. Sooner or later, some teacher will try to teach creationism under the cover of these new policies. Next, the ACLU and other pro-science groups will step in. What is likely to happen is that the school will back down, but if it goes to court, the school will lose.

I see. So you're moving the goalposts, from claiming that the "academic freedom" bill has nothing to do with creationism, to claiming that it doesn't matter because it will be struck down.

Gotcha.

609 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:43:43am

re: #604 Edge

Where is the evidence that religion is being taught in Louisiana schools? If you can cite an example, we can contact the ACLU as teaching a school board policy does not nullify the SCOTUS.

Oh, I give up. I just give up.

610 Natasha  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:44:47am

re: #606 quickjustice

Religion can be liberating or enslaving. Charles is fighting the slavers, for which I'm extremely grateful!

Indeed. Religion, or, actually, faith, on a personal level, can benefit an individual greatly. However, when it is injected with collectivism, it will become just another form of slavery. Collectivism and the active, living mind are opposites.

611 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:44:50am

re: #604 Edge

Where is the evidence that religion is being taught in Louisiana schools? If you can cite an example, we can contact the ACLU as teaching a school board policy does not nullify the SCOTUS.

Where have you been for the last 8 months?
Louisiana gov. signs controversial education bill
Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:33pm EDT

Louisiana Republican Gov. Bobby Jindal has signed into law a bill that critics say could allow for the teaching of "creationism" alongside evolution in public schools.
612 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:44:53am

re: #608 Charles
Damn goal post movers! I'm sick unto death of this moving the bar shit.

613 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:45:02am

re: #586 MandyManners

Hey, I have to run. I'll be back, and I'd like to pick up the theocracy idea.
Thanks

614 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:46:04am

Creationism to be taught in La. public schools

"The Student/School Performance and Support Committee – which is part of the Louisiana Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, also known as BESE – voted to remove the following section of the new policy: “Materials that teach creationism or intelligent design or that advance the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind shall be prohibited for use in science class.”

With the removal of this particular section of the policy, in conjunction with the new law, science teachers in Louisiana public schools will now be given free reign to not only present religious views on human origins but to openly criticize well-established scientific theories, such as Charles Darwin’s theory on evolution.

In the event that a parent becomes concerned with the supplemental, unapproved materials or lectures offered in public school classrooms, his or her concerns will be addressed on an individual, case-by-case basis. If there is no parental concern, however, teachers will then be allowed to carry out their curricula unperturbed."
[Link: tigerweekly.com...]

615 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:46:26am

re: #609 MandyManners
Don't. I will fight this crap with the same zeal I fight pseudoscience from the far left. Both are totalitarian schemes.

616 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:47:05am

re: #613 sprucepinehollow

Hey, I have to run. I'll be back, and I'd like to pick up the theocracy idea.
Thanks

I suggest you do some background reading on the people in question before you come back to embarrass yourself more.

617 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:47:40am

re: #581 Salamantis

She grabbed my head with both hands, smacked her forehead into mine, and shouted "HEAL!" The pain this caused me was excruciating and intense. I literally scrteamed, and was barely able to redirect my impulse to lash out into the action of twisting away from her, out of her grasp, and fleeing down the aisle.

Wow! The holy head-butt - these people need to GET MEDICINE.

618 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:48:08am

re: #609 MandyManners

It's the job of the good citizens of Louisiana to identify these practices, and shut this down with a lawsuit. Another Scopes trial. "Inherit the Wind", anyone?

619 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:49:42am

re: #608 Charles

I see. So you're moving the goalposts, from claiming that the academic freedom has nothing to do with creationism, to claiming that it doesn't matter because it will be struck down.

Gotcha.

I'm not moving any goalposts because I never claimed that the academic freedom has nothing to do with creationism. I'm just pointing out that on a scale that includes what is happening to our economy and national security, this stuff is small potatoes. That doesn't mean you should stop educating people about this issue, as it is indeed helpful, but just don't expect me to work myself into a frenzy about a tempest in a teapot. You will one day see that my prediction is was exactly correct.

620 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:50:02am

re: #617 Jimmah
There used to be a guy on late night tv is San Diego we called Billy the Bopper. We'd be in the bag playing poker and turn this dude on for comedy. He'd smack the 'afflicted' in the head and shout "debbils out". The afflicted one would fall on the stage and thrash about and get up healed. Damn entertaining.

621 Achilles Tang  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:52:16am

re: #619 Edge

I'm not moving any goalposts because I never claimed that the academic freedom has nothing to do with creationism. I'm just pointing out that on a scale that includes what is happening to our economy and national security, this stuff is small potatoes. That doesn't mean you should stop educating people about this issue, as it is indeed helpful, but just don't expect me to work myself into a frenzy about a tempest in a teapot. You will one day see that my prediction is was exactly correct.

Do you have any idea how often that opinion has been made?

Please, why don't you just give Charles a list of your recommended topics to discuss, and then piss off and get your own blog for them.

622 ladycatnip  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:52:25am

#540 sprucepinehollow

I wasn't talking about Charles. I was observing that the tone here SEEMS to be creationist=liar... or something else less than positive.

Actually, there are quite a few Christians here at LGF who do believe God created the heavens and the earth - which He could have done via the Big Bang, or instantaneously through His spoken word, or via evolution. Most of us simply cannot support a movement that is trying to include faith as part of the science curriculum. The irony is that we don't know because we weren't there when it all happened. Whether I believe in creation or evolution - neither affects my standing with God one whit, or my faith, or my life.

What irks me is that which should be a non-issue is made of great impact by a group of hard-core creationists. It's dividing Christians, alienating our non-believing friends, and basically focusing on something that belongs within the walls of churches, not public schools.

I would refer these Christians back to the Apostles Creed - it's a statement of faith, not science.

623 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:53:06am

re: #620 pingjockey

There used to be a guy on late night tv is San Diego we called Billy the Bopper. We'd be in the bag playing poker and turn this dude on for comedy. He'd smack the 'afflicted' in the head and shout "debbils out". The afflicted one would fall on the stage and thrash about and get up healed. Damn entertaining.

Sounds like that white haired freak..... Benny Hinn.

624 quickjustice  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:53:41am

Come to think of it, that's what this legislation is! A rehash of the Tennessee law under which Scopes was prosecuted.

625 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:55:57am

re: #452 RhymesWithRight

To answer the questions of several folks here, I won't disclose the school in question out of a desire to not speak ill of my employer -- especially because of how the matter was handled by my principal and superintendent. Suffice it to say that the situation was confirmed by multiple students in the class AND my colleague when I asked her about it.

When the matter was taken to our building principal, he took action to ensure that the students were not penalized for engaging in the legitimate classroom action of asking questions. When the teacher in question went to the district level, the superintendent backed the principal. On the other hand, it was also made clear that students who answered questions about what evolutionary theory states would lose points on assignments and/or tests for filing to properly answer, regardless of whether or not they personally hold to those views.

In other words, some church kids were programmed like little zombic memebots with Disco Institute creationist debate strategies and talking points like these

[Link: ncseweb.org...]

[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]

with which they barraged the science class, and the teacher was told she had to just grin and bear it.

Rhetorical sophistry can be abused to effectively argue the most idiotic things:

[Link: www.teachthemscience.org...]

626 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:55:57am

re: #611 jcm
Where have you been for the last 8 months?
Louisiana gov. signs controversial education bill

Do you realize that for something to be taught, a teacher must stand up and teach the material to children? Signing a controversial education bill is not the same as teaching. Just watch what happens if some teacher tries to teach something that has been prohibited by the SCOTUS.

627 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:57:14am
628 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:57:19am

re: #623 jcm
This was back in the 70s, early 80s. Don't know where Hinn got his start.

629 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:57:32am

re: #619 Edge

When this creationist bullshit is struck down it won't be thanks to the 'efforts' of those whose advice was to pay no attention to the issue.

630 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:57:43am
631 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:58:14am

re: #626 Edge

Where have you been for the last 8 months?
Louisiana gov. signs controversial education bill

Do you realize that for something to be taught, a teacher must stand up and teach the material to children? Signing a controversial education bill is not the same as teaching. Just watch what happens if some teacher tries to teach something that has been prohibited by the SCOTUS.

Yes, just watch what will happen -- the state of Louisiana will be sued by concerned parents, and have to spend millions of taxpayer dollars to defend something that never should have been an issue at all.

But hey, let's just ignore it because it's "insignificant."

632 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:59:30am

re: #458 opnion

It's all delusion. Demonic posession was a way to address mental & physical maladies, back in the day.It should be abandoned like human sacrafice to insure good crops.

Actually, what was much more popular, for quite obvious reasons, was sympathetic magick - to fuck in the newly planted fields in order to promote crop fertility and fecundity...;~)

633 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:00:08pm

re: #620 pingjockey

Anyone who tries that holy headbut thing with me better have good health insurance...lol

634 rightymouse  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:00:35pm

re: #569 quickjustice

To your point: Christians believe that there's a spiritual dimension to healing. 'Nuff said.

I take my kids to the Dr. when they are sick.

I pray when they are really sick, but they are still taken to the Dr.

Am a Christian.

635 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:00:43pm

re: #633 Jimmah
No shit. That is just nuts.

636 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:01:12pm

re: #626 Edge

Where have you been for the last 8 months?
Louisiana gov. signs controversial education bill

Do you realize that for something to be taught, a teacher must stand up and teach the material to children? Signing a controversial education bill is not the same as teaching. Just watch what happens if some teacher tries to teach something that has been prohibited by the SCOTUS.

It's happening despite the law.

Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.” Nearly the same number agreed or strongly agreed that when they teach creationism or intelligent design they emphasize that “many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian Theory” (see Table S3).


[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

637 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:02:19pm
638 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:03:34pm

re: #636 jaunte
Do you suppose some of this ID stuff will go away when we finally recieve coherent radio/laser/giant parrots communicating from another planet light years away?

639 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:05:16pm

re: #638 pingjockey

Do you suppose some of this ID stuff will go away when we finally recieve coherent radio/laser/giant parrots communicating from another planet light years away?

Probably not. Could be demons with radios, or demons with frickin' lasers on their heads...

640 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:05:33pm

re: #631 Charles

Yes, just watch what will happen -- the state of Louisiana will be sued by concerned parents, and have to spend millions of taxpayer dollars to defend something that never should have been an issue at all.

But hey, let's just ignore it because it's "insignificant."

I didn't say to ignore it and I agree its a stupid waste of money. I'm just pointing out that the schools are not going to ever be teaching religion or creationism, despite the newest tricks the creationists can come up with. And once the academic freedom ruse is knocked down by the courts, they really don't have much more weasel room left to do anything. I mean, where do you go from there?

For me, the trillions of wasted taxpayer money (stolen from future generations) is something that is much more troubling. The potential millions wasted by some creationist school board will signal the end of a dying attempt to change the schools. The actual trillions that are being spent by the Obama adm. is just the beginning of a national slide into the abyss.

641 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:05:55pm

re: #626 Edge

Where have you been for the last 8 months?
Louisiana gov. signs controversial education bill

Do you realize that for something to be taught, a teacher must stand up and teach the material to children? Signing a controversial education bill is not the same as teaching. Just watch what happens if some teacher tries to teach something that has been prohibited by the SCOTUS.

These bills call for "equal time." The Louisiana Senate servers are down. It's called S.B. 733. "Louisiana Science Education Act" however the bill text is here.


AN ACT

To enact R.S. 17:285.1, relative to curriculum and instruction; to provide relative to the teaching of scientific subjects in public elementary and secondary schools; to promote students' critical thinking skills and open discussion of scientific theories; to provide relative to support and guidance for teachers; to provide relative to textbooks and instructional materials; to provide for rules and regulations; to provide for effectiveness; and to provide for related matters.

B.(1) The State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, upon request of a city, parish, or other local public school board, shall allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment within public elementary and secondary schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.

(2) Such assistance shall include support and guidance for teachers regarding effective ways to help students understand, analyze, critique, and objectively review scientific theories being studied, including those enumerated in Paragraph (1) of this Subsection.

C. A teacher shall teach the material presented in the standard textbook supplied by the school system and thereafter may use supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner, as permitted by the city, parish, or other local public school board unless otherwise prohibited by the State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education.

D. This Section shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion.

Wedge Document.

Phase III. Once our research and writing have had time to mature, and the public prepared for the reception of design theory, we will move toward direct confrontation with the advocates of materialist science through challenge conferences in significant academic settings. We will also pursue possible legal assistance in response to resistance to the integration of design theory into public school science curricula. The attention, publicity, and influence of design theory should draw scientific materialists into open debate with design theorists, and we will be ready. With an added emphasis to the social sciences and humanities, we will begin to address the specific social consequences of materialism and the Darwinist theory that supports it in the sciences.
642 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:06:19pm

re: #639 jaunte
Bwahahaha! Used the giant parrot example cause I was rereading 'Ringworld' the other night.

643 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:06:21pm

re: #603 Jimmah

I respectfully disagree (and this is a whole other topic can of worms). I know what the science is based on, and like I said my husband is a geologist . The science is based on the ppm of C02 concentrations in the atmosphere rising and changing "the global average temp" as seen in a computer model. However, no where in the vast geologic record can it be found that a rise in these ppm numbers makes the temperature on Earth rise, or over power natural orbital cycles, nor is "the average temp" of the Earth even a "real" number. Certainly they can not know what the change is by "fractions" of a degree either. (and for 5 or 6 yrs they have no proof of a rise at all)

I believe even the climate scientists feel we've "broken" the Earth based on some inner spiritual belief. Even the campaign on evil "oil", on any industry, technology, etc etc is part of it all. We humans have sinned. Even President Obama believes that CO2 is a pollutant.
Sorry for being long winded and off topic (sort of!)

644 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:07:05pm

re: #469 RhymesWithRight

Funky:

Like it or not, evolutionary theory is not complete, perfect, and beyond question or revision -- hence my use of the term. Like I said, I believe in evolution and I teach evolution as the best scientific explanation of the development of life in my classes. That does not mean that I dogmatically accept it as beyond question -- indeed, openness to new evidence and the further refinement means I cannot do so.

Evolution is cotinuously getting elaborated, augmented, and refined ON THE EDGES; the core tenets of random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection have withstood a century and a half of scientific scrutiny, and have only been further confirmed by the results of their experiments and investigations.

Watson & Crick's identification and isolation of DNA, and the subsequent sequencing of the genome, drove the final nail in the coffin lid of anti-evolutionary contentios, because we now have decoded, and are purposefully manipulating via gene splicing, the very physical substrate by means of which evolution proceeds, and which conclusively demonstrates via shared sequences the common descent of divergent terrestrial lifeforms.

645 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:08:07pm

re: #641 jcm
Facts are facts. Of course that wedge document is a fraud./

646 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:08:07pm

re: #626 Edge

Where have you been for the last 8 months?
Louisiana gov. signs controversial education bill

Do you realize that for something to be taught, a teacher must stand up and teach the material to children? Signing a controversial education bill is not the same as teaching. Just watch what happens if some teacher tries to teach something that has been prohibited by the SCOTUS.

The law already has had ill effects for Louisiana as a major science group has withdrawn its convention in NO.

647 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:11:53pm

re: #643 JustAHouseWife

Or maybe they're just looking at the data.

Youtube Video
648 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:12:12pm

re: #636 jaunte

Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.”

So this has been going on with the "academic freedom" bills. You may miss the silver lining here. These bills may cause some of these teachers to be more bold with their "lessons" meaning that sooner or later, one of them will find themselves in court.

649 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:12:13pm

Going up to see what nonsense our illustrious(spew) Sec. of State has been spewing.

650 Aye Pod  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:14:47pm

Dinner time - BBL

651 Edge  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:15:17pm

re: #646 MandyManners

The law already has had ill effects for Louisiana as a major science group has withdrawn its convention in NO.

True, but I'm responding to the notion that this law has caused religion and creationism to be taught in the public schools. Can we agree that so far, there is no evidence this is true?

652 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:15:59pm

re: #648 Edge

So this has been going on with the "academic freedom" bills. You may miss the silver lining here. These bills may cause some of these teachers to be more bold with their "lessons" meaning that sooner or later, one of them will find themselves in court.

That's a silver lining for NO ONE but the attorneys.

653 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:16:04pm

re: #521 Edge

Let's say it is 2012. Let's say the unemployment rate is at 14% and inflation is starting to spiral out of control. Let's say the deficit is stuck at 1.2 trillion dollars. Let's also say that America has begun to retreat from Afghanistan because of serious losses over there and Iraq has begun a civil war since Obama pulled all the troops out.

The election is between Jindal and Obama. Who here would be voting for Obama's second term because of the school board issue?

I'd sit out the election, or vote for a third party candidate, because, since they both have a history of doing the wrong things, I couldn't trust Jindal to do the right think any more than I could Obama.

654 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:16:27pm

re: #648 Edge

These bills encourage some teachers into actions which will waste taxpayer money when the school districts are sued. Not really a silver lining.

655 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #651 Edge

True, but I'm responding to the notion that this law has caused religion and creationism to be taught in the public schools. Can we agree that so far, there is no evidence this is true?

That is not my point. My point is that this bill will prove to be a huge financial blow--both in legal fees and in lost revenue--to the tax payers who, after Katrina, cannot afford it.

656 MandyManners  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:19:55pm

re: #655 MandyManners

That is not my point. My point is that this bill will prove to be a huge financial blow--both in legal fees and in lost revenue--to the tax payers who, after Katrina, cannot afford it.

Actually, even if Katrina had never happened, the financial fall out is not a good thing.

657 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:21:34pm

re: #648 Edge

So this has been going on with the "academic freedom" bills. You may miss the silver lining here. These bills may cause some of these teachers to be more bold with their "lessons" meaning that sooner or later, one of them will find themselves in court.

What "other materials" can be taught in science class, that's still science?

658 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:21:35pm

re: #656 MandyManners
So true. This nonsense is gonna cost the taxpayers of Louisana a ton of money that could be used for other things.

659 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:22:13pm

re: #657 jcm
Turtle theory!

660 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:22:43pm

Louisiana teachers are now caught between two opposing plaintiff camps.

As part of the War on Education and the War on Science, this is effective tactics in action. If any teacher in Louisiana seeks approval for anti-evolution materials as the law encourages, school boards are put on the spot. If the school board approves the anti-evolution material, it is the school board’s action that will be the subject of the suit; if the board disapproves the material, but the teacher teaches it, the teacher can be fired and would be personally liable for any lawsuit.

But if a science teacher teaches evolution as the textbook has it, the Louisiana Family Forum will complain to the school board that “alternative materials” were not offered.

So to avoid trouble, evolution will be left out of the curriculum. The kids are failing the tests anyway — who will notice, or care? Not the Louisiana lege, not the Louisiana governor.

As America slips farther behind the rest of the industrialized world on education achievement in science, Louisiana’s legislature has sided with those who promote the “rising tide of mediocrity.” If a foreign government had done this to us, we’d regard it as an act of war, the Excellence in Education Commission said in 1983.


[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]

661 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:23:12pm

re: #658 pingjockey

So true. This nonsense is gonna cost the taxpayers of Louisana a ton of money that could be used for other things.

Like what? Leeves? Those despoil the natural environment anyway!
//////

662 pingjockey  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:24:38pm

re: #661 jcm
Oh yes! Let New Orleans go back to the swamps, it is a blight on the alligators, snapping turtles and crawfish!

663 jcm  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:25:35pm

re: #662 pingjockey

Oh yes! Let New Orleans go back to the swamps, it is a blight on the alligators, snapping turtles and crawfish!

BWAHAHAHAHA!

664 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:30:09pm

re: #578 Edge

No. But where is the example of a teacher teaching creationism or religion?

Here's my prediction. Sooner or later, some teacher will try to teach creationism under the cover of these new policies. Next, the ACLU and other pro-science groups will step in. What is likely to happen is that the school will back down, but if it goes to court, the school will lose.

And the school board, thus the state, will be out the money they spent of unuseable creationist 'supplementary materials' if they back down, and if they don't, they'll also be out Disco Institute shill 'expert witness' fees plus the court judgment for fines for damages. All the while the Disco institute shiils collect profits from their owned subsidiary creationist presses, as well as author fees, since most of that creationist crapola is written by them, and any expert witness fees should there be a trial, have to pay not a cent of any court judgment, and laugh all the way to the bank, then move on to the next naive believer marks. Meanwhile, the state, and the school board, teachers, and the students, and the state taxpayers, have to suffer the financial consequences.

665 Ziggy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:37:09pm

re: #532 opnion

I got on an ID thread last summer on a Friday night on the deck , in the dark with vodka & cigars. Damn, it was entertaining!

The problem is it's too early to start drinking....maybe not.

666 Animal  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:37:26pm

re: #72 kynna

Bat shit crazy is a personal judgment. Consent matters. Just like I didn't think the guy -- whatshisname Ryan -- going to a sex club with his Star Trek wife was an issue. You separate what matters to the subject at hand or you risk creeping into judgments you never meant to make.

I'm not saying this exorcism wasn't weird -- In My Opinion. And it does pretty much disqualify him for national office. But the Left loves to lump everything they don't like about a person into all the 'relevant' reasons to dismiss/oppose them. In my opinion, the exorcism is irrelevant, even as I oppose Jindal going forward.


I think it's very relevant. It speaks to his judgement. If he believes in one thing, namely exorcism, that is by any rational standard bizarre crap, then who knows what other bizarre crap he might accept without question?

To my thinking that alone disqualifies him from high office.

667 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:43:54pm

re: #619 Edge

I'm not moving any goalposts because I never claimed that the academic freedom has nothing to do with creationism. I'm just pointing out that on a scale that includes what is happening to our economy and national security, this stuff is small potatoes. That doesn't mean you should stop educating people about this issue, as it is indeed helpful, but just don't expect me to work myself into a frenzy about a tempest in a teapot. You will one day see that my prediction is was exactly correct.

You don't think it hamstrings the future national security and economic position of the United States to have a shortage of future bioscientists, which is what polluting high school science classes with creationist dogma will ultimately result in? What about an inability to quickly design and manufacture a vaccine response to a terrorist bioweapons atack? What about products and services in the bioscience and biotechnology field being innovated, invented, manufactured and sold by our economic competitors instead of us?

Clearly, you have not thought the dire consequences and ramifications through.

668 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:17:19pm

re: #578 Edge

No. But where is the example of a teacher teaching creationism or religion?

Here's my prediction. Sooner or later, some teacher will try to teach creationism under the cover of these new policies. Next, the ACLU and other pro-science groups will step in. What is likely to happen is that the school will back down, but if it goes to court, the school will lose.


Wrong. It takes a parent who knows what's going on to catch this happening. Here's a survey demonstrating that even against the rules 12.5 percent of public school science teachers are already teaching ID.
[Link: www.newscientist.com...]

Here's a simple search in google that will also demonstrate that far more teachers are fired for "Wrong views" from religious schools than are from Public schools, which kinda shows that the movie "Expelled" had it backwards, and that religious schools are where you are more likely to be fired for speaking freelly.

[Link: www.google.com...]

669 Throbert McGee  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:39:16pm

re: #21 reine.de.tout

Yes, converted from Hinduism to Catholicism.

And I think this happened soon after his conversion to Christianity.
It is seriously creepy.

Are you talking about the exorcism? If he was a new convert at the time, that could be a mitigating factor. I wouldn't necessarily expect a "brand new Christian" to understand that in modern Christianity, exorcism is an enormously controversial practice, to put it mildly.

670 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:40:52pm

re: #667 Salamantis

Eh, as a "gringa" who studied science, I'm not so concerned about the future supply of American scientists. Most Americans won't study science or math because both are "too hard." The ID idiots won't change that one way or the other.

Sad but true....I was the only American in my lab in grad school. It seemed that most labs had a token American. The rest of the students were Asians. The good news is that most of the Asians wanted to stay here once they got their PhDs (DUH) ... the bad news is that they sometimes had trouble with immigration authorities.

671 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:40:56pm

Okay, here's what I could find. Sorry it took so long, but yes Lynn, I'm on a dialup connection.


It is a common belief among today's scientists that life's origin was naturally based, and therefore abiogenesis (life from non-life) must have occurred. Today 95% of the biologists in the National Academy of Science are either atheist or agnostic
(Nature, Vol. 394, No. 6691, p. 313)
Link

All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We all believe, as an article of faith, that life evolved from dead matter on this planet. It is just that its complexity is so great, it is hard for us to imagine that it did. (Harold C. Urey, quoted in Christian Science Monitor, January 4, 1962, p. 4)
Link

"Man is the result of a purposeless and materialistic process that did not have him in mind. He was not planned. He is a state of matter, a form of life, a sort of animal, and a species of the Order Primates, akin nearly or remotely to all of life and indeed to all that is material."

Simpson, George Gaylord [late Professor of Vertebrate Paleontology, Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University, USA]

"In the evolutionary pattern of thought there is no longer either need or room for the supernatural. The earth was not created: it evolved. So did all the animals and plants that inhabit it, including our human selves, mind and soul as well as brain and body. So did religion. "

Huxley, Julian [late grandson of Thomas Henry Huxley, former Professor of Zoology at King's College, London, and founding Director-General of UNESCO]
Link


Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation and that is unthinkable.''

Sir Arthur Keith, a famous British evolutionist
Link


Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.

- Richard Dawkins
Link

672 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:58:28pm

Just curious: For those who consider this amateur exorcism to be a trivial issue of little concern, would you also consider someone who has engaged in a Santeria or Voodoo ritual in the past to be a trivial issue of little concern?

In other words, would you dismiss such a thing just as easily, or do you maintain a hypocritical double standard?

673 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:06:18pm

re: #671 TradeBait

Man, creationists are amazingly shameless about this stuff.

Every one of those quotes comes from a creationist quote mine. All of them.

And not a single one backs up your claim that science teachers are telling children that the origin of life is "scientifically settled."

Who do you think you're fooling with this nonsense?

674 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:11:20pm

I took a look at Charles' link to a decade-old article about David Barton. Rob Boston on Barton's perceived negative consequences of removing prayer from schools: "it's clear that Barton has never taken a course in basic statistics and doesn't understand that correlation is not causation" like you have to "take a course" to know what correlation and causation are. Everyone knows the respect that's owed to academic credentials, so if you don't have them you are nuthin'. Right.

If removing prayer from schools was intended to help anything or anyone, where is the evidence that it has? Or was it removed for no reason at all?

Forbidding prayer to God in the public square is contrary to the settled practice of the founding fathers who framed the constitution in accordance with their worldview. There is always a fine line to walk between allowing too much power to any side of a debate. The founders were clearly all men of prayer and didn't intend that prayer should disappear from the public square. This wasn't a matter of debate for them. So, clearly their bias was in favor of prayer. Nevertheless they did not intend that anyone should be forced to pray. However, it is illogical to expect a positive consequence or no consequence from changing a settled practice that has been in place from the founding. The anti-prayer side of the debate has gotten out of hand. When that happens, expect effort to be expended on swinging power the other way. On this issue I'm for the norm of the founding fathers which was that public prayer to God is good and to be encouraged.

675 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:12:16pm

re: #672 Slumbering Behemoth

Just curious: For those who consider this amateur exorcism to be a trivial issue of little concern, would you also consider someone who has engaged in a Santeria or Voodoo ritual in the past to be a trivial issue of little concern?

In other words, would you dismiss such a thing just as easily, or do you maintain a hypocritical double standard?

That's why I said Jindal is fine for LA. he's a kook, but there's lots of kooks down there. Really, he's a good fit, and by far better than anything they have elected for a long time. I hope he loves LA and wants to stay there to help fix the place as best as he can.

676 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:14:50pm

re: #674 cantrecant

LOL the guy hung around with/hangs around with neo-Nazis, but he wants to put prayer back in public schools, so he's A OK. The guy hung around with/hangs around with neo-Nazis, but he was deputy chair of the TX GOP, so he's A OK.

good grief.

677 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:18:08pm

re: #674 cantrecant

If removing prayer from schools was intended to help anything or anyone, where is the evidence that it has? Or was it removed for no reason at all?

Prayer was removed from public schools because it's a clear violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. And this viewpoint has been upheld by the Supreme Court, over and over again.

Forbidding prayer to God in the public square is contrary to the settled practice of the founding fathers who framed the constitution in accordance with their worldview.

Clearly, you haven't read much by Thomas Jefferson or James Madison if you believe that to be true.

678 Throbert McGee  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:18:46pm

Charles writes:


Here are some things I’d like to see Jindal address.
... he took part in an amateur exorcism and claimed it cured a woman of cancer...

Unless the interviewer David Gregory has thoroughly done his homework about exorcism and the diversity of Christian opinions on the matter, he'd do better to avoid this rather marginal topic -- if Gregory attacks the exorcism without knowing what he's doing, he simply invites Jindal to spin it into "an attack on Christianity." (Jindal could retort, for example, "Oh, but the Vatican acknowledges the reality of exorcism -- are you calling the Pope a kook?" And although that would be mostly a lie in this context, there is a sliver of truth that could trap Gregory if he's not well-prepared.)

Of course, you could make the same objection about ID, and say that Gregory should avoid the topic lest Jindal try to spin it into "Christianity-bashing."

The difference is, of course, that at present there is no widespread movement to sneak exorcism into public-school Health classes. Thus, it's not inconsistent to say that Gregory should ask Jindal about his Creationist views while avoiding the exorcism question -- it's just a matter of picking one's battles wisely.

679 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:20:55pm

re: #671 TradeBait

Okay, here's what I could find. Sorry it took so long, but yes Lynn, I'm on a dialup connection.

It is a common belief among today's scientists that life's origin was naturally based, and therefore abiogenesis (life from non-life) must have occurred. Today 95% of the biologists in the National Academy of Science are either atheist or agnostic
(Nature, Vol. 394, No. 6691, p. 313)
Link

All of us who study the origin of life find that the more we look into it, the more we feel it is too complex to have evolved anywhere. We all believe, as an article of faith, that life evolved from dead matter on this planet. It is just that its complexity is so great, it is hard for us to imagine that it did. (Harold C. Urey, quoted in Christian Science Monitor, January 4, 1962, p. 4)
Link

"Man is the result of a purposeless and materialistic process that did not have him in mind. He was not planned. He is a state of matter, a form of life, a sort of animal, and a species of the Order Primates, akin nearly or remotely to all of life and indeed to all that is material."

Simpson, George Gaylord [late Professor of Vertebrate Paleontology, Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University, USA]

"In the evolutionary pattern of thought there is no longer either need or room for the supernatural. The earth was not created: it evolved. So did all the animals and plants that inhabit it, including our human selves, mind and soul as well as brain and body. So did religion. "

Huxley, Julian [late grandson of Thomas Henry Huxley, former Professor of Zoology at King's College, London, and founding Director-General of UNESCO]
Link


Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the only alternative is special creation and that is unthinkable.''

Sir Arthur Keith, a famous British evolutionist
Link


Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.

- Richard Dawkins
Link

You realize, of course, that when you offer links from such notoriously quotemining creationist sites as the Northwest Creation Network, the Society for the Advancement of Creation Science, the Encyclopedia of Creation Science (CreationWiki), and Detecting Design, the Creationist website of Seventh-Day Adventist Sean D. Pitman, that people are gonna have a hard time being convinced that you're anything but a Disco Institute type creationism apologist propagandist, right? Especially when one of the people quoted, Sir Arthur Keith, who died in 1955, long before genetics emerged as a science, was possibly involved in the Piltdown Man hoax?

Having said that, I see no problems with the quotes by Richard Dawkins and George Gaylord Simpson (they're talking about the evolution of some forms of life from others, not about the genesis of life in general), and hasten to add that the quote by Julien Huxley, who died in 1975, may seem harsh and abrasive to creationists, but they would be hard pressed to empirically falsify it. Urey, along with Miller, performed some of the first experiments to replicate the conditions obtaining when life first appeared on the earth, and did indeed succeed in having about half of the amino acids emerge from that experiment, with more found upon recent subsequent inspection. I do have a problem with his 'faith' statement; it is a conjecture or hypothesis that life came from nonlife unaided, and one that is supported by some modicum of empirical evidence. His 'irreduceable complexity' statements are completely beyond the pale, as Ken Miller has amply and abundantly demonstrated.

680 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:22:08pm

re: #673 Charles

Man, creationists are amazingly shameless about this stuff.

Every one of those quotes comes from a creationist quote mine. All of them.

And not a single one backs up your claim that science teachers are telling children that the origin of life is "scientifically settled."

Who do you think you're fooling with this nonsense?

First of all, a quote is either true or false. It doesn't matter where it is sourced. You asked for quotes, you got them. If they are false quotes then you should easily be able to post links exposing them as fraudulent, just as you challenged me to do.

Secondly, if your contention is true that no scientist believes the question of origins is scientifically settled, then we have no controversy. That fact should be incontrovertibly introduced into the educational system, instead of relying on phrases such as life arose on the earth approximately 2.5 billion years ago or life arises wherever there is liquid water. If faith of any scope is anathema in scientific discourse, then what is not fact should be clearly labeled as such.

681 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:24:00pm

re: #680 TradeBait

At least now it's clear where you're getting your talking points from.

682 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:24:38pm

re: #613 sprucepinehollow

Hey, I have to run. I'll be back, and I'd like to pick up the theocracy idea.
Thanks

I bet.

683 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:25:43pm

re: #674 cantrecant

Forbidding prayer to God in the public square is contrary to the settled practice of the founding fathers who framed the constitution in accordance with their worldview.

"God", or any other similar word, isn't contained in the Constitution.

684 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:26:05pm

re: #679 Salamantis

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I wouldn't waste my time on such a futile gesture. I'm simply saying that I don't want scientific assumptions presented in the classroom, any more than I want religious assumptions presented. Matters of faith, whether scientific or religious, should be excluded.

685 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:26:57pm

re: #674 cantrecant

The "public school" and the "public square" on not the same thing. No one can legally stop you from saying a prayer in your local Burger King.

But, if we were to allow public school sanctioned prayer, then to what gods or goddesses, and how many, would be acceptable to you?

Would you find it acceptable if public school teachers led their classes in a round of praise to the glory and might of Poseidon after and earthquake?

686 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:27:52pm

re: #674 cantrecant

The founders were clearly all men of prayer and didn't intend that prayer should disappear from the public square.

Uh- many of the Founders were Deists.

687 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:28:08pm

re: #684 TradeBait

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I wouldn't waste my time on such a futile gesture. I'm simply saying that I don't want scientific assumptions presented in the classroom, any more than I want religious assumptions presented. Matters of faith, whether scientific or religious, should be excluded.

You have not shown a single bit of proof that "scientific assumptions" are being taught in the classroom. You went around to a bunch of creationist websites and pulled a bunch of quotes that are complete non sequiturs, then dumped them all in this thread.

688 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:29:48pm

re: #674 cantrecant

On this issue I'm for the norm of the founding fathers which was that public prayer to God is good and to be encouraged.

Where is this coming from?! Where did any Founder encourage prayer in public? They felt it was a private matter, hence the First Amendment.

689 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:32:07pm

re: #674 cantrecant

I took a look at Charles' link to a decade-old article about David Barton. Rob Boston on Barton's perceived negative consequences of removing prayer from schools: "it's clear that Barton has never taken a course in basic statistics and doesn't understand that correlation is not causation" like you have to "take a course" to know what correlation and causation are. Everyone knows the respect that's owed to academic credentials, so if you don't have them you are nuthin'. Right.

Snarky anti-intellectualism. How nice.

If removing prayer from schools was intended to help anything or anyone, where is the evidence that it has? Or was it removed for no reason at all?

It was removed because it entangled church and state by having a ritual observed by some but not all faiths officially provided for, and by doing so violated both the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Forbidding prayer to God in the public square is contrary to the settled practice of the founding fathers who framed the constitution in accordance with their worldview. There is always a fine line to walk between allowing too much power to any side of a debate. The founders were clearly all men of prayer and didn't intend that prayer should disappear from the public square. This wasn't a matter of debate for them. So, clearly their bias was in favor of prayer. Nevertheless they did not intend that anyone should be forced to pray. However, it is illogical to expect a positive consequence or no consequence from changing a settled practice that has been in place from the founding. The anti-prayer side of the debate has gotten out of hand. When that happens, expect effort to be expended on swinging power the other way. On this issue I'm for the norm of the founding fathers which was that public prayer to God is good and to be encouraged.

Slavery and the denial of women to vote were also once settled practices that were in place from the founding. Our founders and framers were, for the most part, not Christians, but Deists. Thomas Paine was an open Atheist. Thomas Jefferson was the fellow who first referred to the 1st Amendment as establishing a 'wall of separation between church and state', in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists. They did not embrace what you have been led to think that they did. And anybody can pray in public if they wish, and even - silently - in school. But official school-organized prayer is quite properly forbidden.

690 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:34:51pm

I am starting to get very angry about these intentional distortions of the Founders and their religious views. Yes- they acknowledged God, and were raised Christians, but they were not the Founders of a "Christian Nation" like creationists like to portray them. They are now adding Founder quote mines to their arsenal to promote this "Christian Nation" meme, and I won't stand for it.

691 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:35:34pm

re: #619 Edge

I'm not moving any goalposts because I never claimed that the academic freedom has nothing to do with creationism. I'm just pointing out that on a scale that includes what is happening to our economy and national security, this stuff is small potatoes. That doesn't mean you should stop educating people about this issue, as it is indeed helpful, but just don't expect me to work myself into a frenzy about a tempest in a teapot. You will one day see that my prediction is was exactly correct.

It's funny. Before 9-11, I used to get this exact same response from most people I tried to talk to about the threat of global jihad. "You're a bigot," they said. "It's not a real threat," they said. "Just a few kooks in the Middle East," they said. "It can't happen here," they said.

Oooops.

692 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:44:35pm

re: #680 TradeBait

First of all, a quote is either true or false. It doesn't matter where it is sourced. You asked for quotes, you got them. If they are false quotes then you should easily be able to post links exposing them as fraudulent, just as you challenged me to do.

Context matters. Creationist quoteminers are extremely adept at excising slivers or slips that completely misrepresent scientists' positions.

Secondly, if your contention is true that no scientist believes the question of origins is scientifically settled, then we have no controversy. That fact should be incontrovertibly introduced into the educational system, instead of relying on phrases such as life arose on the earth approximately 2.5 billion years ago or life arises wherever there is liquid water. If faith of any scope is anathema in scientific discourse, then what is not fact should be clearly labeled as such.

Actually, life arose on the earth at least 3.5 billion years ago. And what is wrong with that statement? It makes no reference to either the presence or the absence of a supernatural cause. And the fact that life requires water just means that water is necessary, not that it is sufficient. But I sincerely doubt if any credible scientist stated that life arose wherever there is liquid water; could you please reference that? Were that to have been the case, I most sincerely doubt that the genetic codes of terrestrial life would demonstrate the vast common similarities that they have in common, for it would mean that, rather than there being just a tiny set of ancient ancestors from which all terrestrial life evolutionarily diverged, different ancestors would have arisen all over the damn place - and the genomes of different species would have reflected such a thing..

693 JustAHouseWife  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:44:40pm

re: #647 Jimmah

I can't get your video to play for some reason. Sorry , not copout or anything. The link just goes blank and nothing happens.
I've seen much data and IMHO much of the data is bad. If the "Hockey Stick" data for example were provided to a paying customer in the private sector, it would have been rejected (husband is a published geologist, and a senior environmental scientist; cleaning up the globe 7 days a week in the private sector) It's useless to argue with you about if you don't understand all the details. Let me put it this way, the margin for error using "global temp data" is greater then the temperature they are reporting as the warming, it is possible that some areas of the planet are warming but that's not "global"! Please don't point to ice melting, that's what ice does in an inter glacial period; I could give you hundreds of papers that show climate change is natural ; and besides humans have been adapting to climate change and sea level rise for thousands of years. Just visit Greece or Egypt for example. We are living on a big wet spinning tilting rock hurling through space around a star. Please don't forget it! :) Cheers!

694 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 2:50:26pm

re: #684 TradeBait

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I wouldn't waste my time on such a futile gesture. I'm simply saying that I don't want scientific assumptions presented in the classroom, any more than I want religious assumptions presented. Matters of faith, whether scientific or religious, should be excluded.

There ARE NO such things as matters of scientific faith. If there ain't empirical evidence for it, it ain't science, and if there IS empirical evidence for it, it ain't faith. What you are attempting here is a classic creationist ploy; unable to elevate creationist religious dogma to the status of evolutionary science, you attempt to drag evolutionary science down to the level of creationist religious dogma. But this endeavor at illegitimate equivocation, too, will fail, because the bright line of the presence of empirical evidence for assertions vs. the absence of same cannot be rhetorically erased.

695 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:07:44pm

re: #690 Sharmuta

I am starting to get very angry about these intentional distortions of the Founders and their religious views. Yes- they acknowledged God, and were raised Christians, but they were not the Founders of a "Christian Nation" like creationists like to portray them. They are now adding Founder quote mines to their arsenal to promote this "Christian Nation" meme, and I won't stand for it.

This falsehood is drilled into their heads by fundamentalist preachers, and they rely on false and distorted quotes to do it.

696 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:17:39pm

re: #695 Charles

This falsehood is drilled into their heads by fundamentalist preachers, and they rely on false and distorted quotes to do it.

Yes. In all my studies of the Revolution and Founders, I have never come across this meme of some overwhelmingly devout religious leanings of the vast majority of these men, but then- I've been reading actual historians with credentials. If there was any truth to this meme, we'd see it in the records, and it's just not there.

But this is symptomatic of a larger issue, and touches on the George Will thread too. People don't want to check the "facts" they're told. There is too much willingness on the part of individuals to take things at face value or to only verify their information from known propagandists like the DI. And all this distortion is to justify pre-existing world views, and it's at the expense of honesty, integrity and intellect. Sad.

697 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:21:59pm

re: #687 Charles

You have not shown a single bit of proof that "scientific assumptions" are being taught in the classroom. You went around to a bunch of creationist websites and pulled a bunch of quotes that are complete non sequiturs, then dumped them all in this thread.

which is why I never try to debate these people on facts. they simply aren't honest; therefore, it's a waste of time

the politics are more interesting to me now...they have their wedge strategy. do they realize that they are driving the wedge through the GOP--the political party they have worked for over 20 years to influence/take over? if they destroy the GOP (which they very well might) they lose much more than they gain.

it's interesting as a psychology/motivation exercise.

698 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:27:12pm

Matthew 6:5
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

699 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:27:28pm

re: #671 TradeBait

Okay, here's what I could find. Sorry it took so long, but yes Lynn, I'm on a dialup connection.

Quite apart from the question of their provenance, not one of those quotes supports your contention that "every scientific text" you've read and "every documentary" you view that touches on the subject infers that life arose spontaneously. You've supposedly shown that a few scientists have offered that opinion, but that's not what you claimed.

You claimed that they were teaching that the origins of life on earth are "settled scientifically." But you only supply two quotes that ostensibly deal with origins of life and the first one is simply an opinion offered by a Creationist website, not by a scientist and having nothing to do with teaching. The second one is a blatant distortion, as it omits the first two words of the sentence ("And yet...") and places an upper case letter at the beginning of its stripped quote. In context, Dr. Urey's quote actually seems to address the apparent contradiction between assertions of the complexity of life and the acceptance by some of its natural origins "as a matter of faith." I don't believe that quote meant what you (and others who have abused it in the name of Creationism) seem to think it means.

None of the rest of the quotes you've provided support any of the claims you've made on this thread, as they don't address origins of life at all.

And I have a hard time believing that you can load this site (and especially use its functions) on dial-up. I have enough trouble with an old computer on FIOS.

700 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:28:29pm

re: #697 funky chicken

which is why I never try to debate these people on facts. they simply aren't honest; therefore, it's a waste of time

the politics are more interesting to me now...they have their wedge strategy. do they realize that they are driving the wedge through the GOP--the political party they have worked for over 20 years to influence/take over? if they destroy the GOP (which they very well might) they lose much more than they gain.

it's interesting as a psychology/motivation exercise.

I updinged you because I do think the psychology/motivation is interesting, but I must disagree with you on the value of debating the false 'facts' of these blatant liemongers. It cannot help but be useful to expose their willful prevarications to the daylight of public scrutiny and factual refutation, and thus to reveal them for the dishonest creationist shills that they are.

701 sprucepinehollow  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:30:28pm

re: #682 Sharmuta

How much do you want to bet?

702 Throbert McGee  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:47:25pm

re: #677 Charles

Clearly, you haven't read much by Thomas Jefferson or James Madison if you believe that to be true.

Here's the final draft of the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom, authored by Jefferson himself in 1779 and signed into law by the Virginia Assembly in 1786. It was, at the time, possibly the most radically libertarian statement on church/state separation in human history, in terms of how comprehensively it limited government power. It was also unprecedented in its even-handedness -- for instance, it does not so much as whisper at suggesting that atheists alone have some sort of inferior status, while theists of any and every stripe are "created equal" (contrast with the modern Boy Scouts of America policy).

Section I is a lengthy Preamble that explains the philosophical reasoning behind the Statute, whose practical effects are spelled out in one long sentence in Section II. And at the link given above, the non-boldface text represents language from the 1779 Jefferson draft that was stricken from the final 1786 version, represented in bold text. For example, from Section I:

That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical

All of this was in Jefferson's version, but the two words "and abhors" were subsequently removed by the other legislators before the final draft was signed into law.

And notice that ALL of the substantive deletions (i.e., those not purely grammatical) occur in the preamble of Section I. In other words, the Assembly slightly trimmed Jefferson's philosophical arguments -- presumably because they found the language too radical -- but the practical force of the statute in Section II is exactly as T.J. had originally desired.

Finally, Section III makes the radical claim that "although the present Assembly has no power to prevent future Assemblies from revoking this statute, we declare that the rights asserted in it are held by all humanity from birth, and thus any future attempt to repeal or narrow this statute would be an infringement of inalienable human rights."

The above is my very condensed paraphrase with emphasis added -- but if you check out the original language at the link, you'll see that the final draft is identical in substance to Jefferson's version.

703 Throbert McGee  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 3:54:28pm

re: #702 Throbert McGee

[the statute] was also unprecedented in its even-handedness

As you'd expect from the author -- to Jefferson is also credited* the observation "if my neighbor has twenty gods, or no god at all, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket."

*It's very possibly not original to him, but at the very least he quoted it approvingly.

704 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:02:04pm

re: #702 Throbert McGee

Yes, that was exactly my point. Jefferson was utterly opposed to the idea that the US would be a "Christian nation," and it's clear from the document you cited and from many other aspects of his work. Perhaps the most revealing example is the Jefferson Bible.

705 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:21:41pm

re: #699 Lynn B.

And I have a hard time believing that you can load this site (and especially use its functions) on dial-up. I have enough trouble with an old computer on FIOS.

Sad, but true, I'm afraid. Plain old Earthlink dialup, currently connected at a blazing 45.2Kbps. I do have a bit a trouble when the number of comments reaches approximately 500>. I get script error dialogs frequently and a total lockup occasionally. I'll just have to live with it unless and until we get broadband access out here in the sticks.

706 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:40:49pm

re: #704 Charles

There's also the lengthy correspondence between Jefferson and John Adams, and among other topics, they discuss religion back and forth at great length. This was surely not the sort of liberty they wanted the government to be able to infringe upon- religious debate and the right to disagree on matters of faith. Of course- they were highly respectful in their criticisms, but I feel these exchanges show precisely why these men worked so hard to establish a secular government- that future generations of Americans would have the liberty to debate the merits of faith without any pressures or limitations from the government.

It's really kind of shocking and disappointing to see so many Americans not appreciate the incredible gift of religious freedom, especially considering the current international conflict we're fighting.

707 funky chicken  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:46:23pm

re: #700 Salamantis

I updinged you because I do think the psychology/motivation is interesting, but I must disagree with you on the value of debating the false 'facts' of these blatant liemongers. It cannot help but be useful to expose their willful prevarications to the daylight of public scrutiny and factual refutation, and thus to reveal them for the dishonest creationist shills that they are.

I guess I've got the "been there, done that" disease. It makes me really sad that so many of these people have been brainwashed...some of them are really frightened that there is some terrible Darwinist conspiracy to harm their children. I do try to reassure them as to what scientists and science teachers believe and present to their students. The folks who regurgitate the silly stuff from the quote mines? Eh...not interesting and not open minded

708 trulyyours  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 4:53:15pm

Rejecting one of the brightest, most capable government executives in the United States on the basis of his religious beliefs represents the same sort of "let's shoot ourselves in the foot" logic that caused the GOP to end up with John McCain and not a true conservative who could have defeated BHO.

Persisting in this "scientific" pursuit of government truth is destined to failure.

This is a free country and Bobby Jindal remains one of a rare few who are truly up to the challenge of leading it well.

709 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:02:12pm

re: #708 trulyyours

I kind of like to see Jeb Bush run in 2012. After the four-year disaster we're currently embarking on, I think a lot of people will be reassessing their negative opinion of Dubya.

710 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:02:59pm

re: #708 trulyyours

What, in your opinion, is a "true conservative"?

711 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:11:14pm

re: #708 trulyyours

Rejecting one of the brightest, most capable government executives in the United States on the basis of his religious beliefs represents the same sort of "let's shoot ourselves in the foot" logic that caused the GOP to end up with John McCain and not a true conservative who could have defeated BHO.

Persisting in this "scientific" pursuit of government truth is destined to failure.

This is a free country and Bobby Jindal remains one of a rare few who are truly up to the challenge of leading it well.

I think not. Anybody who would sign a Disco-Institute-crafted, stealth-creationism-in-public-high-school-science-class bill into state law in order to please or placate theocratic dogmatists is not someone I want to see running the nation. He crossed the line when he approved the foisting of sectarian religious dogmas, by the state, onto everybody's kids. That's not just a matter of HIS religious beliefs; that's a matter of him approving the use governmental power to transgress on the religious beliefs of OTHERS.

The centrists and moderates would flee such a RR socon 'true conservative' like they would a leprotic plague, and the resultant blowout would make the McCain loss look like a cliffhanger by comparison.

712 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:19:44pm

re: #709 TradeBait

I kind of like to see Jeb Bush run in 2012. After the four-year disaster we're currently embarking on, I think a lot of people will be reassessing their negative opinion of Dubya.

I lived under two terms of Jeb in Florida. He's much more socon than Dubya. But the judiciary blocked a lot of his social agenda. For instance, he signed the infamous 'Terri's Law" that poured gasoline on the Schiavo case by allowing him to order Terri Schiavo kept on life support against her husband's will. After it was overturned by the Florida Supreme Court, He appealed their decision to the US Supreme court, which refused to hear it, and allowed the Florida Supreme Court's decision to stand.

713 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:30:22pm

re: #712 Salamantis

Yeah, I remember the Schiavo case. That was a disaster. Wasn't there a lot of friction between her parents and her husband? I seem to recall there was some question of ulterior motives on her husband's part about allowing her to die. And also that her parents were contending that she was lucid enough to respond to them sometimes.

714 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:36:26pm

re: #713 TradeBait

Have you seen her brain scan?

715 trulyyours  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:37:02pm

A true conservative, in my opinion, is someone who believes in and acts upon the truth that government is best which governs least, that taxes should be minimized, that free markets make better decisions than bureaucrats and that the foremost role of the federal government is national defense and security.

All the name calling such as "Disco-Institute-crafted, stealth-creationism-in-public-high-school-science" which ignores the fact that all public policy is derived from someone(s) moral and ethical belief system does nothing but keep conservatism in the cellar.

The liberals now in control are essentially atheists in their practiced beliefs whether they know it or not. We can't rationalize a better scheme in their arena because, at it's base, conservatism is grounded in the understanding of human nature and condition which is essentially theological in nature.

716 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:40:15pm

re: #713 TradeBait

Yeah, I remember the Schiavo case. That was a disaster. Wasn't there a lot of friction between her parents and her husband? I seem to recall there was some question of ulterior motives on her husband's part about allowing her to die. And also that her parents were contending that she was lucid enough to respond to them sometimes.

There was friction between the parents and the husband, but the decision was legally the husband's to make. Some people claimed that he wanted to take her off the feeding tubes to gain control of trust fund money, but the same charge could be labeled against her parents, who controlled those funds as long as she remained on the machinery. Several neurological specialists examined her, and there was no doubt whatsoever that she was irretrieveably brain dead.

MSNBC Video
717 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:41:07pm

re: #714 Sharmuta

No, I didn't see the brain scan. Was it more or less flat?

718 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:45:16pm

re: #713 TradeBait

Yeah, I remember the Schiavo case. That was a disaster. Wasn't there a lot of friction between her parents and her husband? I seem to recall there was some question of ulterior motives on her husband's part about allowing her to die. And also that her parents were contending that she was lucid enough to respond to them sometimes.

Claims about her supposed lucidity have been debunked, and the cynical claims about her husband having an ulterior motive are without merit.

The controversy around the Schiavo case was entirely manufactured by a group of ghouls looking to forward their political agenda by exploiting the suffering of private citizens.

719 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:45:22pm

re: #715 trulyyours

A true conservative, in my opinion, is someone who believes in and acts upon the truth that government is best which governs least, that taxes should be minimized, that free markets make better decisions than bureaucrats and that the foremost role of the federal government is national defense and security.

All the name calling such as "Disco-Institute-crafted, stealth-creationism-in-public-high-school-science " which ignores the fact that all public policy is derived from someone(s) moral and ethical belief system does nothing but keep conservatism in the cellar.

The liberals now in control are essentially atheists in their practiced beliefs whether they know it or not. We can't rationalize a better scheme in their arena because, at it's base, conservatism is grounded in the understanding of human nature and condition which is essentially theological in nature.

A true conservative does not employ the machinery of the state in order to religiously indoctrinate the children of its citizens. But I note that you are regurgitating one of the Disco Institute's Wedge Strategy document tactics; trying to morph any discussion of what is and is not science (essentially, if there is no empirical evidence supporting it, it ain't science), and what does and does not belong in public high school science class (science does; religion doesn't), into some chest-beating slimefest attacking Bad Old Atheists for the sake of Good Old God.

720 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:46:27pm

re: #716 Salamantis

I seem to remember the consensus was that her brain damage was irreversible, but I don't think I saw any released medical data. If it were me, though, I wouldn't want to be kept alive in that state.

721 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:46:32pm

re: #717 TradeBait

No, I didn't see the brain scan. Was it more or less flat?

Flat as a fritter (see my link in #716).

722 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:47:53pm

re: #715 trulyyours

A true conservative, in my opinion, is someone who believes in and acts upon the truth that government is best which governs least, that taxes should be minimized, that free markets make better decisions than bureaucrats and that the foremost role of the federal government is national defense and security.

And what about this makes you think conservatism is about pushing your ideas of morality off on other law abiding citizens?

723 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:48:55pm

re: #720 TradeBait

I seem to remember the consensus was that her brain damage was irreversible, but I don't think I saw any released medical data. If it were me, though, I wouldn't want to be kept alive in that state.

She WASN'T alive; only her body was being kept in some sick and twisted tube-fed zombification. Her brain was absotively, posilutely dead. And Jeb Bush was a fucking ghoul to abuse the government the way he did in the case.

724 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:49:45pm

re: #709 TradeBait

I kind of like to see Jeb Bush run in 2012. After the four-year disaster we're currently embarking on, I think a lot of people will be reassessing their negative opinion of Dubya.

I think you'll find the general consensus around here to be "No more Bushes, no more Clintons". I could be wrong, though.

725 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:53:35pm

re: #721 Salamantis

Flat as a fritter (see my link in #716).

Yeah, that's the first time I've seen photos of the CAT scans. Certainly looks like too much atrophy to ever recover.

726 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:56:45pm

Another sleeper pops up.

727 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:58:39pm

re: #724 Slumbering Behemoth

I certainly didn't agree with Dubya on everything, especially his stance on immigration. But when I think about where we're heading with BHO, it gives me the shivers.

Who would you like to see the GOP run in 2012, or more to the point, who would have the best chance of unseating Obama?

728 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:58:40pm

This past summer, I nearly died of a severe attack of diverticulitis. It was so close that the doctors asked me to fill out a living will. Being something of a powt, this is what I came up with; it is now my official living will:

Living Will

Not You-thanasia: I expire!
So I take this statement personally.
Thus I must be careful, clear, precise
And shape well this first draft of heart's desire
For fickle future guarantees
Not one revision ere demise.

I love my life, and can't conceive
What it could be like to lack for it.
I plan to spend my last breath's force
Struggling to draw just one breath more
And my last heartbeat loving leave;
But one can't love life unaware of it.

I require not movement, nor pain excised
Nor sex, nor peace of sanity
But consciousness. If paralyzed,
I can still read and watch TV
Listen to music and feel the sea
Or taste an apple, or smell bread bake
Remember, imagine, communicate
Know, think, experience, learn, create.

If I'm in pain, do what you can
To dull what you can without addling my brain;
Permit me to bear the rest of it
And if I'm brain-damaged or deranged -
Even if living is dim or strange -
Please help me to make the best of it.

But if rendered vegetal, ne'er to wake
That's death, as I define the term.
So don't feed a zombie on a tape
Or respirate just to stymie worms.
Just let my husk wither when it's cored
For it's of no further use to me.
What others need, to them afford
And powder the dross for sun or sea.

729 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:04:49pm

re: #727 TradeBait

I certainly didn't agree with Dubya on everything, especially his stance on immigration. But when I think about where we're heading with BHO, it gives me the shivers.

Who would you like to see the GOP run in 2012, or more to the point, who would have the best chance of unseating Obama?

Let's put it this way; any activist RR socon will lose independents, moderates, centrists, and crossover Reagan Democrats, and will result in a Dukakis/McGovern type electoral disaster.

730 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:05:39pm

re: #728 Salamantis

Exceptionally well said, Sal.

731 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:07:24pm

re: #715 trulyyours

A true conservative, in my opinion, is someone who believes in and acts upon the truth that government is best which governs least, that taxes should be minimized, that free markets make better decisions than bureaucrats and that the foremost role of the federal government is national defense and security.

I can pretty much agree with that.

All the name calling such as "Disco-Institute-crafted, stealth-creationism-in-public-high-school-science " which ignores the fact that all public policy is derived from someone(s) moral and ethical belief system does nothing but keep conservatism in the cellar.

I'm not sure what it is you are arguing here, but if you are saying that criticism of the DI and their fellow traveler's agenda is keeping conservatism in the cellar, then you are way off. There is nothing conservative about their goals, and the fact that they use leftist tactics to push their agenda should by itself be proof of that.

The liberals now in control are essentially atheists in their practiced beliefs whether they know it or not. We can't rationalize a better scheme in their arena because, at it's base, conservatism is grounded in the understanding of human nature and condition which is essentially theological in nature.

I can't make any sense out of that at all. All I can think to say is that there is nothing inherently theological about conservatism, just as there is nothing inherently conservative about theology.

732 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:10:41pm

You know, I don't know why, but I really didn't think McCain would lose. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud as hell that this country elected an African-American to the presidency in my lifetime. I just wish it was someone who wasn't so intent on bankrupting us for a generation to come.

733 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:14:39pm

re: #727 TradeBait


Who would you like to see the GOP run in 2012, or more to the point, who would have the best chance of unseating Obama?

We've got a long way to go 'til '12. I would prefer the GOP to focus their efforts on the elections of 2010 for now.

As far as who could unseat Obama in 2012, I can all but guarantee you that Jindal is a non-starter. Run him, and we get two terms of Obama. Who could do it then? Who knows, we've only seen about 30 days of an Obama Admin. so far. He could end up doing so poorly that just about anyone could unseat him.

I won't be holding my breath, though. Back in the '90s, I was dead certain that Clinton couldn't get reelected. I am not prepared to be so confident come 2012.

734 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:18:17pm

re: #732 TradeBait

You know, I don't know why, but I really didn't think McCain would lose. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud as hell that this country elected an African-American to the presidency in my lifetime. I just wish it was someone who wasn't so intent on bankrupting us for a generation to come.

People forget how close the race actually was. McCain was actually leading until the ecenomy collapsed, and still only lost 54-46. In other words, if 1/25 more of the electorate had voted for McCain instead of Obama, it would have been dead even. Had the economy held strong through election day, I still believe he would have been our president. He WAS the right candidate against Obama; things beyond anyone's control just went wrong, and, as a member of the party that was in power when it all went pear-shaped, he got unjustifiably, and lethally, penalized at the polls.

735 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:20:19pm

re: #733 Slumbering Behemoth

I won't be holding my breath, though. Back in the '90s, I was dead certain that Clinton couldn't get reelected. I am not prepared to be so confident come 2012.

Clinton not only got reelected, he was quite popular. I couldn't figure that one, either. Unless things change drastically, though, I don't think Obama will retain the approval rating he's currently enjoying. Everything's new and shiny right now, but his agenda is way to the left of Clinton and that will hurt him eventually.

736 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:21:56pm

re: #734 Salamantis

You're wrong Sal. It was because he was a filthy, no good, gawt-damned, moderate leaning RINO!

//////

737 TradeBait  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:23:23pm

Okay folks. My decrepit old computer is getting sluggish again. I'm going to call it an evening. Thanks for the chat.

738 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:30:59pm

re: #735 TradeBait

Clinton not only got reelected, he was quite popular. I couldn't figure that one, either. Unless things change drastically, though, I don't think Obama will retain the approval rating he's currently enjoying. Everything's new and shiny right now, but his agenda is way to the left of Clinton and that will hurt him eventually.

Not only that, but the GOP practically handed him reelection by running Dole. I can all but guarantee the same will happen if the GOP goes with Jindal or someone like that.

Then again, history does not repeat itself the way people expect, or would like. There were some folks in this last election pimping the idea that a Carter-ish Obama would be a good thing for this country as it would lead to the correcting of the GOP with a Reagan-ish candidate in '12. I consider this to be foolish, wishful thinking.

739 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:07:30pm

re: #715 trulyyours

A true conservative, in my opinion, is someone who believes in and acts upon the truth that government is best which governs least, that taxes should be minimized, that free markets make better decisions than bureaucrats and that the foremost role of the federal government is national defense and security.

All the name calling such as "Disco-Institute-crafted, stealth-creationism-in-public-high-school-science " which ignores the fact that all public policy is derived from someone(s) moral and ethical belief system does nothing but keep conservatism in the cellar.

The liberals now in control are essentially atheists in their practiced beliefs whether they know it or not. We can't rationalize a better scheme in their arena because, at it's base, conservatism is grounded in the understanding of human nature and condition which is essentially theological in nature.

Well, you got the first paragraph right anyway...

740 trulyyours  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:26:53pm

re: #739 Lynn B.

Well, you got the first paragraph right anyway...

If you don't understand the assertion, you can disagree, but it certainly contributes to discourse to explain why.

741 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:09:35pm

re: #740 trulyyours

If you don't understand the assertion, you can disagree, but it certainly contributes to discourse to explain why.

Which is precisely what I did in post #719.

742 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:26:38pm

re: #677 Charles

Prayer was removed from public schools because it's a clear violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. And this viewpoint has been upheld by the Supreme Court, over and over again.

So it was removed not because it was oppressive to anyone but because it was deemed in violation of the First Amendment.

Clearly, you haven't read much by Thomas Jefferson or James Madison if you believe that to be true.

Where would I read that Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were opposed to public prayer in schools or Congress?

743 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:32:40pm

re: #683 Sharmuta

"God", or any other similar word, isn't contained in the Constitution.

The constitution is framed on Christian principals.

744 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:35:13pm

re: #685 Slumbering Behemoth

The "public school" and the "public square" on not the same thing. No one can legally stop you from saying a prayer in your local Burger King.

But, if we were to allow public school sanctioned prayer, then to what gods or goddesses, and how many, would be acceptable to you?

Would you find it acceptable if public school teachers led their classes in a round of praise to the glory and might of Poseidon after and earthquake?

I would propose that we maintain the tradition of the founding fathers who prayed to the God of the Bible and acknowledged the superlative moral code of Jesus.

745 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:37:53pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

Uh- many of the Founders were Deists.

What, Deists don't pray to God?

746 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:39:07pm

re: #744 cantrecant

I would propose that we maintain the tradition of the founding fathers who prayed to the God of the Bible and acknowledged the superlative moral code of Jesus.

Too bad. It's not going to happen. The Supreme Court enforces the US Constitution so that fanatics like you don't get your way.

747 schnapp  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:40:02pm

re: #743 cantrecant
it was founded on DEMOCRATIC principles.

748 Shug  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:43:36pm

re: #743 cantrecant

The constitution is framed on Christian principals.

no it was founded on high school principals.

749 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:44:33pm

re: #743 cantrecant

Uh- no. It was the Greeks who established democratic societies of republics.

750 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:45:00pm

re: #743 cantrecant

The constitution is framed on Christian principals.

me thinks you forgot "Judeo"... me thinks you also forgot The Magna Carta (but you knew all that ,, didn't ya!))

751 jaunte  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:45:22pm

re: #728 Salamantis

I hope you don't mind if I steal that.

752 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:45:36pm

re: #742 cantrecant

Where would I read that Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were opposed to public prayer in schools or Congress?

You.... haven't read these mens' thoughts on the matter, have you?

753 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:47:14pm

re: #688 Sharmuta

Where is this coming from?! Where did any Founder encourage prayer in public? They felt it was a private matter, hence the First Amendment.

I'm told that Congress had rollicking good long prayers in the early days. Apparently the first meeting of Congress in September 1774 included a study of 4 chapters of the Bible according to a letter of John Adams.

754 Killian Bundy  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:51:23pm

re: #753 cantrecant

I'm told that Congress had rollicking good long prayers in the early days. Apparently the first meeting of Congress in September 1774 included a study of 4 chapters of the Bible according to a letter of John Adams.

/who told you that?

755 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:51:28pm

re: #753 cantrecant

Link?

756 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:54:59pm

re: #742 cantrecant

So it was removed not because it was oppressive to anyone but because it was deemed in violation of the First Amendment.

Actually, the Bill of Rights (that is, the first ten Amendments to the Constitution) was written precisely for the purpose of limiting the power of government, so that the minority could not be oppressed by the tyranny of a majority voting itself extra rights or voting to take minority rights away, which is why they tend to begin "Congress shall make no law..." To force the children of those who did not have prayer in their faiths to pray at public school would be to oppress them, by transgressing their right of free exercise of religion.

Where would I read that Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were opposed to public prayer in schools or Congress?

You could read that Thomas Jefferson fully intended the 1st Amendment, which I quote here in its totality:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

to, in his own words, build "a wall of separation between church and state." He wrote this in his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, accessible here:

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

Here is the relevant section:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

757 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:56:01pm

re: #743 cantrecant

The constitution is framed on Christian principals.

Considering that the overwhelming majority of the constitution is dedicated to how our government is to operate (like a republic, that is), it is more accurate to say that it is framed on pagan principles.

758 Honorary Yooper  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:56:11pm

re: #740 trulyyours

Karma: 8

trulyyours

Registered since: Sep 19, 2004 at 3:12 pm
No. of comments posted: 15
No. of links posted: 0

Sockpuppet, anyone?

759 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:57:44pm

re: #743 cantrecant

The constitution is framed on Christian principals.

The Constitution is framed on Greco-Roman principles fully as much as it is on Judeo-Christion principles - and the Greco-Romans were Pagans.

760 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:58:11pm

re: #744 cantrecant

I would propose that we maintain the tradition of the founding fathers who prayed to the God of the Bible and acknowledged the superlative moral code of Jesus.

That makes absolutely no sense in the context of my response to your post. A very poor dodging of my question.

761 sattv4u2  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:58:46pm

re: #759 Salamantis

The Constitution is framed on Greco-Roman principles fully as much as it is on Judeo-Christion principles - and the Greco-Romans were Pagans.

They wrestled with that too!

//

762 Randall Gross  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:01:05pm

Republic is the Latin cognate to a Greek word that was around before Christianity was, Democracy is a Greek word that existed pre Christianity as well.

763 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:03:01pm

re: #689 Salamantis

Snarky anti-intellectualism. How nice.

Yes, to match the snarky intellectual elitism of the author of the article.

It was removed because it entangled church and state by having a ritual observed by some but not all faiths officially provided for, and by doing so violated both the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

A worthy reason since prayer was obviously oppressive to the welfare of the people.


Slavery and the denial of women to vote were also once settled practices that were in place from the founding. Our founders and framers were, for the most part, not Christians, but Deists. Thomas Paine was an open Atheist. Thomas Jefferson was the fellow who first referred to the 1st Amendment as establishing a 'wall of separation between church and state', in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists. They did not embrace what you have been led to think that they did. And anybody can pray in public if they wish, and even - silently - in school. But official school-organized prayer is quite properly forbidden.

I'm not convinced that the American tradition of prayer in schools was a gross injustice.

764 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:05:26pm

re: #744 cantrecant

I would propose that we maintain the tradition of the founding fathers who prayed to the God of the Bible and acknowledged the superlative moral code of Jesus.

I woulld propose that you don't know the founding fathers very well:

[Link: www.anotherperspective.org...]

Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists.

765 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:07:10pm

re: #753 cantrecant

I'm told that Congress had rollicking good long prayers in the early days. Apparently the first meeting of Congress in September 1774 included a study of 4 chapters of the Bible according to a letter of John Adams.

And this is exactly the bullshit rewriting of our history that creationists are also engaging in that I mentioned earlier, and I won't stand for it. This comment by "cantrecant" is utter bullshit. The Continental Congress did not spend time on Bible study! They had resolutions to consider from the start. I have read plenty on John Adams and I have never heard this. This is outrageous!

766 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:10:52pm

re: #763 cantrecant

Yes, to match the snarky intellectual elitism of the author of the article.

Inconvenient facts bother you much?

A worthy reason since prayer was obviously oppressive to the welfare of the people.

Well, it's sure as unholy hell oppressive to the religious freedoms of those American citizens who do not embrace a faith that includes prayer.

I'm not convinced that the American tradition of prayer in schools was a gross injustice.

It's not you that has to be convinced; the Supreme Court of the United States of America is quite rightly convinced that it's unconstitutional.

767 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:13:00pm

re: #745 cantrecant

What, Deists don't pray to God?

Actually, umm, they would consider it to be a wasted exercise. Deists believe in a Prime Mover that created the Universe and set it in motion, but which has kept its cosmic hands off it ever since.

768 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:14:31pm

re: #751 jaunte

I hope you don't mind if I steal that.

Feel free. ;~)

769 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:20:02pm

re: #763 cantrecant

I'm not convinced that the American tradition of prayer in schools was a gross injustice.

What part of "Shall make no law" do you not understand?

770 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:28:03pm

I get the feeling that cantrecant thought it had the room all to itself, and decided to spew. Yet as soon as the light came back on, skitter away it did.

/how did that turn into Yoda-speak?

771 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:29:20pm

re: #770 Slumbering Behemoth

I get the feeling that cantrecant thought it had the room all to itself, and decided to spew. Yet as soon as the light came back on, skitter away it did.

/how did that turn into Yoda-speak?

Far seeing, Yoda is.

772 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:42:25pm

re: #755 Sharmuta

Link?

I didn't find these online:

Silas Deane, The Deane Papers: Collections of the New York Historical Society for the Year 1886 (New York: Printed for the Society, 1887), Vol. I,p 20, Wednesday, September 7, 1774

J.T. Headley, The Chaplains and Clergy of the Revolution (Springfield, Massachusetts: G.&.F. Bill, 1861), pp 81-86

This I did find online:

Letter of John Adams to Abigail

After this Mr. Duche, unexpected to every Body struck out into an extemporary Prayer, which filled the Bosom of every Man present. I must confess I never heard a better Prayer or one, so well pronounced. Episcopalian as he is, Dr. Cooper himself never prayed with such fervour, such Ardor, such Earnestness and Pathos, and in Language so elegant and sublime-for America, for the Congress, for The Province of Massachusetts Bay, and especially the Town of Boston. It has had an excellent Effect upon every Body here.

773 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 10:54:41pm

re: #772 cantrecant

None of this shows study from 4 books of the Bible like you said.

And Deane's letters are online. His and Mr. Adams' do not support your comment of Bible study in Congress.

774 cantrecant  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:03:06pm

re: #773 Sharmuta

None of this shows study from 4 books of the Bible like you said.

And Deane's letters are online. His and Mr. Adams' do not support your comment of Bible study in Congress.

Perhaps not, however the Adams letter most certainly does not show a peevish detestation of prayer in congress.

775 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:04:14pm

re: #774 cantrecant

You have intentionally distorted the record of the Founders tonight. Shame on you.

776 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 11:09:49pm

re: #775 Sharmuta

You have intentionally distorted the record of the Founders tonight. Shame on you.

Sharmuta, you should know by now that such people are utterly beneath the capacity for shame.

777 trulyyours  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 9:16:23am

re: #758 Honorary Yooper

Sockpuppet, anyone?

If you can't deal with open debate I suppose the only avenue left is attacking the credibility of the debater, not the issues. I speak for myself, the number of comments I've made reflects only that I have a life outside of making self-important comments and impressing myself with my cleverness.

778 Salamantis  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:57:10am

re: #777 trulyyours

If you can't deal with open debate I suppose the only avenue left is attacking the credibility of the debater, not the issues. I speak for myself, the number of comments I've made reflects only that I have a life outside of making self-important comments and impressing myself with my cleverness.

Then acknowledge my #719 reply to your comment.

779 trulyyours  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:15:37am

re: #778 Salamantis

Re # 719 First of all I'm not a Discovery Institute adherent, member or any such thing. I don't know any of their rhetoric to regurgitate.

The assertion here appears to be that theory A is right and theory B is wrong therefore let's cut off debate. This simply is not a scientific approach but a political one. The quelling of the free flow of ideas is the first step towards tyranny. Theories will rise or fall based on true investigation and study.

The global warming mess we're in is a result of this same sort of illogic - enough of the intelligencia wanted global warming (manmade) to be "right" for political reasons that they managed to force out debate and scientific investigation. The same researchers, if armed with computer projections in 1900 would predict that US cities would be 12 feet deep in horse dung by now.

I'm not taking a position on either side of this hobby horse issue, probably, in the end neither "side" will be proven right. But it is because the science in this area touches on theological questions that a lot of people become very touchy. And true science doesn't tolerate touchiness. Sad to say we have precious little true science in public debate.

780 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 2:56:52pm

re: #779 trulyyours

Re # 719 First of all I'm not a Discovery Institute adherent, member or any such thing. I don't know any of their rhetoric to regurgitate.

The assertion here appears to be that theory A is right and theory B is wrong therefore let's cut off debate. This simply is not a scientific approach but a political one. The quelling of the free flow of ideas is the first step towards tyranny. Theories will rise or fall based on true investigation and study.

Intelligent design is NOT a scientific theory, and it should not be taught as an alternative to the scientific theory of evolution.

Intelligent design is religion dressed up in a cheap pseudo-scientific suit, promoted by deceptive people who've been prevented from getting their religious agenda into schools by other means.

781 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 7:08:09pm

re: #779 trulyyours

Re # 719 First of all I'm not a Discovery Institute adherent, member or any such thing. I don't know any of their rhetoric to regurgitate.

Then you must be psychic, or either browse Disco Institute, Institute for Creation Research, or Answer In Genesis websites.

The assertion here appears to be that theory A is right and theory B is wrong therefore let's cut off debate. This simply is not a scientific approach but a political one. The quelling of the free flow of ideas is the first step towards tyranny. Theories will rise or fall based on true investigation and study.

There is only one biological theory that has empirical evidence support, and that theory has ALL of it - and that theory is evolution. Creationism/ID HAS NO ideas to contribure; even its adherents have been forced to acknowledge that it is content-free:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

What is totalitarian is to attempt to defeat facts with mere rhetoric. Which is all that the creationism/ID people can endeavor to do. because they are in possession of no facts or evidence of their own.

The global warming mess we're in is a result of this same sort of illogic - enough of the intelligencia wanted global warming (manmade) to be "right" for political reasons that they managed to force out debate and scientific investigation. The same researchers, if armed with computer projections in 1900 would predict that US cities would be 12 feet deep in horse dung by now.

Nope. The empirical evidence for evolution has been accumulating for 150 years, and no credible evidence contradicting it has yet appeared. To attempt to impugn evolutionary theory by invoking AGW is like attempting to slander Abraham Lincoln by invoking Ron Paul.

I'm not taking a position on either side of this hobby horse issue, probably, in the end neither "side" will be proven right. But it is because the science in this area touches on theological questions that a lot of people become very touchy. And true science doesn't tolerate touchiness. Sad to say we have precious little true science in public debate.

Here's some true science:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

And here's some more:

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

The first link is to recheckable-at-will empirical science involving shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that demonstrates beyond a rational statistical doubt that the different terrestrial species evolutionarily diverged from ancient common ancestors (yes, including humans and great apes), and the second is a repeatable-at-will laboratory example of genetic evolution caught in the act.

Deal with it.


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