The James Randi Educational Foundation has a standing offer of a million dollars to anyone who can prove that they are able to dowse—the woo-woo practice of detecting hidden objects like water, pipes, wires, etc., with the aid of metal or wooden rods. Here’s Randi’s classic response to a dowser who is threatening legal action unless Randi pays up.
3 |
Ford_Prefect Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:59:38am |
I want the globe that is spinning behind him.
| 4 |
DaveinMD Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:00:49pm |
Sorry to go OT so soon, but this is just too rich for words. Do these morons have a single clue about economics? They're certainly spending enough that there should be a little left over to BUY a clue...
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
*snip*
WASHINGTON (AP)– President Barack Obama has committed hundreds of billions of dollars to help revive the economy and is working on a plan to cut the federal deficit in half by the end of his first term.
Obama will touch on his efforts to restore fiscal discipline at a White House fiscal policy summit on Monday and in an address to Congress on Tuesday. On Thursday he plans to send at least a summary of his first budget request to Capitol Hill. The bottom line, said an administration official Saturday, is to halve the federal deficit to $533 billion by the time his first term ends in 2013. He inherited a deficit of about $1.3 trillion from former President George W. Bush.
The official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the president has not yet released his budget for the fiscal year 2010, which begins Oct. 1, said the deficit will be shrunk by scaling back Iraq war spending, ending the temporary tax breaks enacted by the Bush administration for those making $250,000 or more a year, and streamlining government.
*snip*
| 6 |
pat Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:02:43pm |
re: #4 DaveinMD
These people have no idea what they are doing. None.
| 7 |
HelloDare Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:03:05pm |
How the hell is Randi making that globe behind him move? I see no electrical wires. Must be his hair rays. His beard hair rays.
| 8 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:03:13pm |
Complaints about atheism in 5....4....3.....
| 12 |
pat Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:05:00pm |
Randi is an atheist? That means everything he says is wrong!
| 14 |
Sharmuta Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:05:40pm |
I liked Mr. Randi. Reminded me of a combination of a couple of teachers of mine.
| 15 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:05:42pm |
re: #12 pat
Randi is an atheist? That means everything he says is wrong!
Ok, you forgot the sarcasm tag, right?
| 17 |
Jetpilot1101 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:07:38pm |
I've never seen Randi before but he made one hell of a first impression.
| 19 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:07:51pm |
I think Yuri Geller is still trying to sue Randi.
| 20 |
rightside Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:08:33pm |
re: #4 DaveinMD
ending the temporary tax breaks enacted by the Bush administration for those making $250,000 or more a year, and streamlining government.
Punish succes, reward irresponsibility. How much more streamlined can you get?
| 21 |
SDC Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:10:06pm |
I'd like one of those globes too :-) Dowsing is an old scam, but it is a testament to the gullibility of people in general that they continue to believe in this hokum, no different than "psychic surgery", "fortune-telling", or any of the other crap that some people are willing to guzzle.
| 22 |
Salem Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:10:09pm |
Uh-oh, he apparently endorses "An Inconvenient Truth". That's not encouraging.
| 23 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:10:14pm |
re: #5 Killgore Trout
The Amazing Randy rules!
Blatant name dropping here. I knew Randi personally, back in the 70's. When I was just a child in the 50's, he was a popular east coast entertainer, an escape artist mainly, and some magic. He appeared on a lot of TV variety shows, including Sullivan. At the time I knew him, he was living on the south Jersey coast.
In his time, he was compared to Houdini, for both his skills and promotional abilities.
| 24 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:11:02pm |
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
| 25 |
ratherdashing Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:11:43pm |
I haven't watched the video yet. But, here's my dowsing story from when I was a child. We had a septic tank (sewage) line blocked one time. I read up on dowsing in an encyclopedia, went out in the yard with two metal rods bent in an L shape. I held them loosely in my hands and walked around the area that my father thought was near the line. The two sticks swung across each other at one particular point. The waste water line was beneath that positive reading.
I haven't attempted it ever again. But it worked that day.
Call me nuts.
| 28 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:12:28pm |
re: #23 walter l. newton
Now that I think about it he was probably the inspiration for Penn and Teller.
| 29 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:12:37pm |
re: #19 Killgore Trout
I think Yuri Geller is still trying to sue Randi.
For ever, Randi basically ruined Geller. The problem with Geller, he took his "physic" abilities to far.
The Physic Entertainers Association of America's bylaws states that physic entertainment (mind reading etc) is an art form, and doesn't not allow it's members to promote it as a "special power" or some sort of "spiritual" ability.
| 30 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:13:01pm |
re: #24 Charles
Your constant anti-dowsing agenda is divisive!
/
| 31 |
Racer X Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:13:18pm |
re: #24 Charles
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
Dude, you are psychic!
| 32 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:14:06pm |
re: #24 Charles
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
Well, I won't defend it, but the 365 foot well at our house in north Jersey was found by a dowser. Of course, everyone in the area had a well, and if you dug just about anywhere, you would find water.
Our house sat about 300 feet, on the edge of a small hill, on a lake. Catch the connection?
| 33 |
esch Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:14:09pm |
re: #4 DaveinMD
... and streamlining government.
*snip*
Pfffft!
He thinks he's been backstabbed so far? Just wait until the SEIU sinks their teeth into him. He's already promised them the world.
The main picture on their site really says it all about how they feel about capitalism.
Just more OBS from our prevaricator-in-chief.
| 34 |
Joo-LiZ Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:14:34pm |
I'm just not sure why the definitive testing was not the initial challenge, instead of the video thing.
Video's are way to easy to mess around with. They should meet at location which the JREF has surveyed for pipes and wires and such, and the dowser has never been to before... and watch as the dowser attempts the impossible (and fails).
| 35 |
jaunte Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:14:34pm |
re: #19 Killgore Trout
I think Yuri Geller is still trying to sue Randi.
Even after this?
The EFF has really made Geller eat it here: not only has he been forced to withdraw, but they made him license the clip in question as non-commercial Creative Commons to boot, so as to freely aid the efforts of other skeptics. Right on, EFF!
[Link: www.boingboing.net...]
| 36 |
Ford_Prefect Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:14:40pm |
re: #24 Charles
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
I work in land surveying and, as such, am around a lot of people that are involved in land development. I have met a number of people who swear it works. Never seen it myself, though.
| 37 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:14:48pm |
re: #29 walter l. newton
Last I heard Yuri Geller moved to Australia and was doing some psychic/alien from outer space type of thing. Randi was still busting him and Geller was still suing.
| 38 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:15:06pm |
| 39 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:15:48pm |
I wonder what percentage of those who believe in dowsing believe in creationism.
| 40 |
Jetpilot1101 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:15:50pm |
re: #24 Charles
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
You know Charles, the first step in any emergency in my aircraft is "break out dowsing rods".
| 41 |
Sharmuta Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:16:22pm |
re: #39 MandyManners
I wonder what percentage of those who believe in dowsing believe in creationism.
Now someone will show up and say you are attacking Christians.
| 42 |
Dave the..... Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:16:29pm |
Hey Charles, it worked on Gilligan's Island. Or are you one of those conspiracy kooks who think the whole island was filmed at some studio back lot.
| 44 |
debutaunt Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:17:14pm |
re: #24 Charles
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaaa
| 45 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:17:24pm |
re: #37 Killgore Trout
Last I heard Yuri Geller moved to Australia and was doing some psychic/alien from outer space type of thing. Randi was still busting him and Geller was still suing.
I haven't kept up with it since I stopped actively performing mentalism and magic as a part time job. I don't get any of the trade journals and I really don't pal around with any magicians in the Denver area.
It doesn't surprise me. Geller was the talk of the physic entertainers world back in his time, until it was apparent that he was going to take it further than just interesting entertainment.
Long ago, that was called fraud.
| 46 |
mefolkes Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:17:39pm |
We recently had a furious battle over dowsing on the Alaska Gold Forum. I've always been frustrated by dowsing advocates. The worst, though, is when some of them claim that they can locate mineral deposits or treasure trove by dowsing over a map. That removes the remotest chance of defending dowsing as a reaction to some unknown physical property or principle.
| 47 |
Jetpilot1101 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:18:01pm |
re: #41 Sharmuta
Now someone will show up and say you are attacking Christians.
OK, I'l get it out of the way now:
Charles you hate Christians and dowsers. You agenda is divisive. Why can't you just post anti-jihad items like you used to do. Go to hell. I'll pray for you.
/Did I cover all it all?
| 48 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:18:06pm |
re: #39 MandyManners
I wonder what percentage of those who believe in dowsing believe in creationism.
Well, I know when my rod gets near a good looking female creationist...
| 49 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:18:30pm |
I'd like to see Price set down in the middle of nowhere to see if he can find water with his wires.
| 50 |
varmint Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:18:40pm |
the city has managed to tear up the street in front of my building every year for the last six years. all looking to repair a series of 1920s vintage water pipes.
i sat in my garage watching them one saturday. relieved that i didn't have to listen to jackhammers, but wonder why it was almost ten, and they hadn't done anything. then i noticed the supervisor walking a slow grid pattern with a forked stick in his hand. bulldozers, backhoes, dump trucks, and about twenty guys all making union wages were all waiting for a guy using hillbilly voodoo to find the right place to dig.
i am from a pretty backwoods family. but none of us ever fell for this crap.
| 51 |
UncleRancher Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:18:42pm |
re: #40 Jetpilot1101
You know Charles, the first step in any emergency in my aircraft is "break out dowsing rods".
A dear departed old friend of mine was a dowser. I watched him work. He walked the field with the rods, and when he came to the spot the rods would cross. The client was very impressed. Then he looked at me, and winked.
| 52 |
Salem Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:19:01pm |
[Link: www.randi.org...]
I was recently given a DVD of Al Gore’s "An Inconvenient Truth." After viewing that documentary, I have abandoned any doubts that I may have had about the reality of our species’ contribution to global warming. Gore – a statesman if ever there was one – makes his point repeatedly and powerfully. If you haven't seen it, by all means do so...
[As soon as this item appeared here in SWIFT, a huge number of comments poured in from readers who disagreed with my take on the Gore film. Some of these caveats came from persons whose opinions I must consider very carefully, so I take this opportunity of assuring you all that I’m re-examining my position, and will get back here when I’ve considered the matter more fully.]
Mind you, I don't believe in dowsing. Just can't escape noticing that he's not above falling for lefty feelgood causes. I mean, An Inconvenient Truth? When I hear a person endorse that piece of claptrap, I'm inclined to be mostly skeptical of their objectivity.
| 53 |
MrPaulRevere Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:19:06pm |
re: #41 Sharmuta
I wonder if Yuri Geller is related to you-know-who.
| 54 |
Kaymad Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:19:29pm |
Never really knew anyone still believed this, but i just read a book on pioneer woman of Kansas told in the first person. Water was hard to find in many parts of Kansas and a woman said someone came along with a dowsing rod(? or whatever they call it) and found water that was something like 50 feet down...I'm not a dowser believer, but it's not often that I get to relate a dowsing story.
| 55 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:19:54pm |
| 56 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:20:06pm |
re: #45 walter l. newton
I think some people suspect David Blaine is leaning in that direction from entertainer to mystic guru.
| 57 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:20:07pm |
re: #48 walter l. newton
Well, I know when my rod gets near a good looking female creationist...
*whack*
| 58 |
DEZes Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:20:14pm |
I had never heard the term dowsing, or simply dismissed it.
I have however heard it called divining, proving bulls**t is bulls**t no matter what you call it.
| 59 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:20:33pm |
re: #41 Sharmuta
Now someone will show up and say you are attacking Christians.
I wouldn't be shocked.
| 60 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:20:53pm |
re: #42 Dave the.....
Hey Charles, it worked on Gilligan's Island. Or are you one of those conspiracy kooks who think the whole island was filmed at some studio back lot.
SPEW
| 61 |
Sharmuta Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:21:46pm |
re: #59 MandyManners
I wouldn't be shocked.
You shouldn't be. I was told I was attacking/belittling Christians because I wondered if those TN troofers were creationists.
| 62 |
HelloDare Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:21:54pm |
There is another form of dowsing. People dangle a pendulum and ask questions. They set up what the No, Yes, I don't know and I don't want to answer pendulum motions are then ask questions and see which way the pendulum moves. Some medical practitioners of various sorts use it. Some people use it to find out what they should order for lunch. It's weird.
| 63 |
debutaunt Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:21:54pm |
| 64 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:22:25pm |
re: #50 varmint
the city has managed to tear up the street in front of my building every year for the last six years. all looking to repair a series of 1920s vintage water pipes.
i sat in my garage watching them one saturday. relieved that i didn't have to listen to jackhammers, but wonder why it was almost ten, and they hadn't done anything. then i noticed the supervisor walking a slow grid pattern with a forked stick in his hand. bulldozers, backhoes, dump trucks, and about twenty guys all making union wages were all waiting for a guy using hillbilly voodoo to find the right place to dig.
i am from a pretty backwoods family. but none of us ever fell for this crap.
What in the world? I would've taken a photograph/video and called the local paper/news room.
| 65 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:22:58pm |
re: #35 jaunte
That's a great recap, I haven't seen those clips in a long time.
| 66 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:23:23pm |
re: #56 Killgore Trout
I think some people suspect David Blaine is leaning in that direction from entertainer to mystic guru.
Blaine is what we call in the carnival and side show business as a "geek" act. What Blaine has done is taken it out of the sideshow tents and refined it a bit to make it work with a larger audience, and make it more exceptable. He does the opposite of Geller. He doesn't say anything really, but keeps an aire of mystery about himself that tends to make people assume more than what "is."
| 67 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:23:29pm |
re: #52 Salem
[Link: www.randi.org...]
Mind you, I don't believe in dowsing. Just can't escape noticing that he's not above falling for lefty feelgood causes. I mean, An Inconvenient Truth? When I hear a person endorse that piece of claptrap, I'm inclined to be mostly skeptical of their objectivity.
Good find.
| 68 |
HelloDare Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:23:32pm |
Be funny if somebody used a dowsing rod to find water, started digging and dug up a dead guy holding a dowsing rod.
| 69 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:23:53pm |
re: #53 MrPaulRevere
I wonder if Yuri Geller is related to you-know-who.
Well, she seems to fall for frauds.
| 70 |
jaunte Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:23:57pm |
re: #65 Killgore Trout
That scene from the tonight show was pretty telling.
Geller: "I don't feel strong tonight."
| 71 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:24:23pm |
re: #52 Salem
[Link: www.randi.org...]
Mind you, I don't believe in dowsing. Just can't escape noticing that he's not above falling for lefty feelgood causes. I mean, An Inconvenient Truth? When I hear a person endorse that piece of claptrap, I'm inclined to be mostly skeptical of their objectivity.
My reaction is different from yours. When someone I respect as a fearless warrior for truth and against pseudo-science -- James Randi, for example -- says, "Hey, there's something to this," I tend to want to take another look at whatever it is.
| 72 |
gmsc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:24:27pm |
re: #11 Salem
What is his position on AGW?
re: #22 Salem
Uh-oh, he apparently endorses "An Inconvenient Truth". That's not encouraging.
On Randi's forums (which are being worked, and should be back up in 40 minutes), they're skeptical about everything except AGW. Questioning that on Randi's boards will get you 20 posts in 5 minutes about how wrong you are!
| 73 |
MrPaulRevere Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:24:48pm |
re: #69 MandyManners
Thank you, that's what I was driving at.
| 75 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:25:11pm |
re: #61 Sharmuta
You shouldn't be. I was told I was attacking/belittling Christians because I wondered if those TN troofers were creationists.
Lemme' go find that story and then look them up on the General Assembly site and google them, too.
| 76 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:26:13pm |
re: #72 gmsc
On Randi's forums (which are being worked, and should be back up in 40 minutes), they're skeptical about everything except AGW. Questioning that on Randi's boards will get you 20 posts in 5 minutes about how wrong you are!
You know why I ask this. Have you ever met Randi?
| 77 |
voirdire Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:26:24pm |
"Do not try and bend the spoon douse for water. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth."
| 78 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:27:26pm |
Anybody who really believes dowsing works: there's a million bucks waiting for you! All you have to do is prove it.
| 79 |
dentate Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:27:47pm |
Randi wins the Charles Darwin look-alike contest, hands down.
| 80 |
gmsc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:28:35pm |
Hey, Randi, if you're so sure about the existence of AGW, and you can prove it, there's $500,000 waiting for you!
| 81 |
debutaunt Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:28:35pm |
I suspect that Rosie would be a proponent of this silly stuff.
| 82 |
gmsc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:29:53pm |
re: #76 walter l. newton
You know why I ask this. Have you ever met Randi?
Nope - not in person. I have seen him perform his magic act live, but I never had the opportunity to talk to him face to face.
| 83 |
Salem Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:30:19pm |
re: #71 Charles
My reaction is different from yours. When someone I respect as a fearless warrior for truth and against pseudo-science -- James Randi, for example -- says, "Hey, there's something to this," I tend to want to take another look at whatever it is.
Well, I'd like to ask him, if the earth's temperature raises three degrees in the next twenty years what is most likely, in the extreme, to be the cause: man, or, for the bajillionth time in natural history, nature. Occam's Razor is rather clear about that, I think.
| 84 |
KansasMom Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:32:39pm |
re: #54 Kaymad
Never really knew anyone still believed this, but i just read a book on pioneer woman of Kansas told in the first person. Water was hard to find in many parts of Kansas and a woman said someone came along with a dowsing rod(? or whatever they call it) and found water that was something like 50 feet down...I'm not a dowser believer, but it's not often that I get to relate a dowsing story.
My neighbors HIRED a diviner (as they are called out here) to pick the perfect location to drill a well in their yard. The guy they hired was apparently a practical joker (on top of being a fraud), because he found a spot smack in the center of their front yard -- they had to some creative landscaping to cover it up.
| 85 |
HelloDare Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:33:16pm |
Gore's film all hinged on the Hockey Stick. The hockey stick has been discredited. Nobody is referring to it anymore.
| 86 |
Salem Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:33:25pm |
re: #72 gmsc
On Randi's forums (which are being worked, and should be back up in 40 minutes), they're skeptical about everything except AGW. Questioning that on Randi's boards will get you 20 posts in 5 minutes about how wrong you are!
Yep. And logic will get you nowhere.
| 87 |
MPH Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:33:46pm |
James Randi is an American legend...thank you for posting.
| 88 |
chicagodudewhotrades Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:33:59pm |
Maybe I am looking at this the wrong way, (and I apologize if my understanding of dowsing is wrong) but what is the difference between dowsing and the use of MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) gear in Anti-Submarine Warfare? If MAD gear in the tail boom of a P-3C Orion can detect a submerged submarine then why can't dowsing be used to find a septic tank buried a few feet below a lawn?
| 89 |
ThinkRight Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:34:12pm |
| 90 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:34:13pm |
re: #80 gmsc
Hey, Randi, if you're so sure about the existence of AGW, and you can prove it, there's $500,000 waiting for you!
Uh. The rules for that "contest" are a joke. They basically say that they reserve the right to dismiss any entries, "at their sole discretion."
Entrants agreed to be bound by the UGWC Rules.
Entrants acknowledge that the concepts and terms mentioned and referred to in the UGWC hypotheses are inherently and necessarily vague, and involve subjective judgment. JunkScience.com reserves the exclusive right to determine the meaning and application of such concepts and terms in order to facilitate the purpose of the contest.
JunkScience.com, in its sole discretion, will determine the winner, if any, from UGWC entries. All determinations made by JunkScience.com are final.
This is a publicity stunt, not a real contest.
| 91 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:34:41pm |
re: #25 ratherdashing
I haven't watched the video yet. But, here's my dowsing story from when I was a child. We had a septic tank (sewage) line blocked one time. I read up on dowsing in an encyclopedia, went out in the yard with two metal rods bent in an L shape. I held them loosely in my hands and walked around the area that my father thought was near the line. The two sticks swung across each other at one particular point. The waste water line was beneath that positive reading.
I haven't attempted it ever again. But it worked that day.
Call me nuts.
Now tell us again, why did you have so little trust in your daddy?
| 92 |
iChef Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:35:09pm |
I read something about the sensors on a satellite being wrong and it "missed" showing arctic ice the size of the state of California and yet they said it's still shrinking ... How do they know if the sensors are still not wrong?
| 93 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:35:49pm |
re: #61 Sharmuta
You shouldn't be. I was told I was attacking/belittling Christians because I wondered if those TN troofers were creationists.
I don't care what they believe as long as they don't try to shove it down our throats.
That said, I haven't found anything about it on the General Assembly site.
| 94 |
gmsc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:36:11pm |
re: #90 Charles
This is a publicity stunt, not a real contest.
I was just making the point for irony purposes. It's closed now, anyway.
| 95 |
HelloDare Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:36:20pm |
re: #88 chicagodudewhotrades
Because MAD works and dowsing doesn't.
| 97 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:37:22pm |
re: #83 Salem
Well, I'd like to ask him, if the earth's temperature raises three degrees in the next twenty years what is most likely, in the extreme, to be the cause: man, or, for the bajillionth time in natural history, nature. Occam's Razor is rather clear about that, I think.
Howdy, we meet again. :=)
Occam would say that never before has there been so many parking lots where there used to be forests to soak up crap.
| 98 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:37:55pm |
re: #84 KansasMom
My neighbors HIRED a diviner (as they are called out here) to pick the perfect location to drill a well in their yard. The guy they hired was apparently a practical joker (on top of being a fraud), because he found a spot smack in the center of their front yard -- they had to some creative landscaping to cover it up.
As i said above, everyone in our neighborhood of Caste Rock at Lake Hopatcong, New Jersey, had a well for water, and just about everyone, at one time or another hired the same dowser to find their wells when they first built.
Our neighborhood sat on a hill, 300 feet above (and against) the lake shore, and everyone on the hill had found water somewhere after 350 feet.
When we built out there, my dad hire the guy, but no one even took it seriously. It was more like tradition and something that new residents did when they moved into the area.
We'd have a dowsing party, beer, BBQ, that sort of stuff.
Hell, on that hill, you could have gone down 350 plus feet and ALWAYS hit water. Wasn't no mystery. There was a LAKE down there, and lots of aquifer.
| 99 |
jcw46 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:38:04pm |
| 100 |
MandyManners Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:38:15pm |
re: #61 Sharmuta
You shouldn't be. I was told I was attacking/belittling Christians because I wondered if those TN troofers were creationists.
Campfield has a blog.
[Link: lastcar.blogspot.com...]
| 101 |
hazzyday Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:38:20pm |
Ideomotor Effect. The unconscious mind is very difficult to measure or determine. Sometimes it just seems to be a practical joker. In the case of the circle dowser. We can say that with his eyes open all the parameters of his test were known to his unconsciousness. His mind knew, the circle, the distance, the rods, and what he was going to do. There was no real test here. His unconsciousness mind moved as he programmed it to and his body motor reflexes provided him the feedback. And as Randi said he might not have even been aware of it.
The unconsciousness mind and suggestion are eerily powerful. A test would be for Randi to place one pipe underneath the floor of a large elevated warehouse and then turn the dowser loose giving him one chance to find it. I would also have a random person move the pipe unknown to the other testers. And have that person leave. Randi should just make him the test offer regardless of lawsuit.
If dowsing were to work, according to the ideomotor effect it would be the mind that perceives the pipes not the rods. The dowsing rods just reflect the inner mind though muscle nerves. Can that really occur?
This muscle testing seems to me to be the same thing as dowsing. The two times people have tried it on me they seemed eerily correct. However I was never interested enough in it to spend any time testing it out. According to this theory if you let a yec'r hold a Michael Behe book, they would become weak in the muscles. Their mind would know it's crap.
| 102 |
gmsc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:38:37pm |
re: #54 Kaymad
Never really knew anyone still believed this, but i just read a book on pioneer woman of Kansas told in the first person. Water was hard to find in many parts of Kansas and a woman said someone came along with a dowsing rod(? or whatever they call it) and found water that was something like 50 feet down...I'm not a dowser believer, but it's not often that I get to relate a dowsing story.
"It's a known fact - 94% of the Earth's surface has water within a drillable distance. Find me a dry spot! They don't want to do that."
-James Randi on dowsing
| 103 |
queequeeg Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:39:37pm |
My reaction is different from yours. When someone I respect as a fearless warrior for truth and against pseudo-science -- James Randi, for example -- says, "Hey, there's something to this," I tend to want to take another look at whatever it is.
The mostly liberal JREF community pretty much splits down political lines when it comes to AGW. It's a very different matter than dealing with spoon benders or those who think the Flintstones was a documentary.
| 104 |
Mr Pancakes Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:39:38pm |
The first I ever heard of James (Amazing) Randi was when I saw him in concert with Alice Cooper for the "Billion Dollar Babies" tour in 73.
Kinda followed him ever since.... he tells it like he sees it.
Penn and Teller's style owes a lot to him methinks.
| 105 |
jcw46 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:39:55pm |
re: #19 Killgore Trout
I think Yuri Geller is still trying to sue Randi.
But it's sooo hard to write with those spoons.
| 106 |
walter l. newton Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:40:01pm |
re: #88 chicagodudewhotrades
Maybe I am looking at this the wrong way, (and I apologize if my understanding of dowsing is wrong) but what is the difference between dowsing and the use of MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) gear in Anti-Submarine Warfare? If MAD gear in the tail boom of a P-3C Orion can detect a submerged submarine then why can't dowsing be used to find a septic tank buried a few feet below a lawn?
Er, because MAD is based on science and electronics and physics and dowsing is based on a stick. What part of that is hard to understand.
How does a wooden stick have any physics connection to water, a septic tank, or a buried "anything?"
| 107 |
Salem Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:40:41pm |
re: #97 Naso Tang
Howdy, we meet again. :=)
Occam would say that never before has there been so many parking lots where there used to be forests to soak up crap.
Vast deserts. Vast mountain ranges. Vast Jungles. Vast Oceans. Fire-belching mena angry ball of burning gas in the sky. And what puts them all to shame? Parking lots.
| 108 |
shiplord kirel Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:41:06pm |
Before 9-11, I was a pretty frequent poster at skeptic sites and a fairly well-known contributor to various skeptical publications. Our concerns then seem almost quaint today: magnetic shoe inserts, bigfoot, and that pereniel favorite, the UFO industry. To make a long story short, the war has split the skeptic world into pro- and anti- war factions, the latter oriented toward a rational (that is, internally consistent) but counter-factual set of assumptions derived mostly from the post-60s media culture and the Madison Avenue hoax known as the 60s counterculture. Even the most rational thinkers, it seems, are prey to the habit of falling back on whatever affirms their existing prejudice. With a number of others, I left my favorite skeptic site because the leftist element was in control and could not be persuaded to apply the known principles of critical thinking to such things as the peace movement, media conformity, or anti-American hatred and bigotry. I can't say I was disappointed, since I could see it coming, but it was still devastating to see what I thought of as society's last hope, organized rationality, deteriorate into yet another nihilist propaganda forum.
Charles's attitude, and his recent emphasis on science, reason and, frankly, skepticism, are a breath of fresh air; and a confirmation to me that I have been on the right track after all.
| 110 |
Molon Labe Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:41:37pm |
It's not just the lifting of the forearms. He uses the inertia of the rods. He waits until the rods are pointed inward, then takes a step. Note how with the goggles on he screws up, and the rod on his left goes flying outward.
| 111 |
KingKenrod Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:41:53pm |
re: #71 Charles
My reaction is different from yours. When someone I respect as a fearless warrior for truth and against pseudo-science -- James Randi, for example -- says, "Hey, there's something to this," I tend to want to take another look at whatever it is.
In order to be swayed by AIT, you have to believe everything presented is a factual, and that Al Gore is a credible discerner, analyzer, and disseminator of fact. In other words, you have to trust Al Gore. I thin AIT is very persuasive, much less so after investigating it more fully.
The link posted says that Randi is re-considering his endorsement of AIT.
| 112 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:42:14pm |
re: #79 dentate
It's a common look for skeptics. See: Daniel Dennett
I have a few years to go but I'm already cultivating that look.
| 113 |
Cato Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:42:53pm |
I think this person makes a prettygood case for winning one of Mr. Randi's awards:
[Link: www.mcsweeneys.net...]
| 114 |
hazzyday Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:43:05pm |
re: #69 MandyManners
Well, she seems to fall for frauds.
Ross Geller, Yuri Geller, Pan Geller? I divine trouble all around.
| 115 |
pat Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:43:30pm |
Cryosphere Today has removed all comments regarding the George Will column in view of the discovery that the satellite sensor was defective and the sensing data understated the arctic ice sheet by 500,000 square kilos. What is so strange about this is that discrepancies in the photographic evidence and the sensor data was apparent to many sometime ago. i believe there is a further understatement that has not been accounted for. Over the last week there was a significant build up off Baffin island that is not in the sensor data as well.
| 116 |
KansasMom Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:43:49pm |
re: #98 walter l. newton
Similar situation then.....many people in our neighborhood have wells, and we all have standard-sized suburban lots. The water is underneath us all. Our neighbors honestly believed in it tho,no party or tradition about it. And they could have easily drilled in a less conspicuous spot. Funny.
| 117 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:43:56pm |
re: #90 Charles
It's the same as Harun yarah's prize for a transitional fossil.
| 119 |
hazzyday Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:44:56pm |
re: #113 Cato
I think this person makes a prettygood case for winning one of Mr. Randi's awards:
[Link: www.mcsweeneys.net...]
Oh that was funny.
| 121 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:45:38pm |
re: #80 gmsc
Hey, Randi, if you're so sure about the existence of AGW, and you can prove it, there's $500,000 waiting for you!
A little more information on 'junkscience.com' and who's behind it:
[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]
| 122 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:45:54pm |
I have previously obtained a number of hamburgers in this manner.
Lol
| 123 |
gmsc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:45:56pm |
re: #108 shiplord kirel
Before 9-11, I was a pretty frequent poster at skeptic sites and a fairly well-known contributor to various skeptical publications. Our concerns then seem almost quaint today: magnetic shoe inserts, bigfoot, and that pereniel favorite, the UFO industry. To make a long story short, the war has split the skeptic world into pro- and anti- war factions, the latter oriented toward a rational (that is, internally consistent) but counter-factual set of assumptions derived mostly from the post-60s media culture and the Madison Avenue hoax known as the 60s counterculture. Even the most rational thinkers, it seems, are prey to the habit of falling back on whatever affirms their existing prejudice. With a number of others, I left my favorite skeptic site because the leftist element was in control and could not be persuaded to apply the known principles of critical thinking to such things as the peace movement, media conformity, or anti-American hatred and bigotry. I can't say I was disappointed, since I could see it coming, but it was still devastating to see what I thought of as society's last hope, organized rationality, deteriorate into yet another nihilist propaganda forum.
Charles's attitude, and his recent emphasis on science, reason and, frankly, skepticism, are a breath of fresh air; and a confirmation to me that I have been on the right track after all.
Excellent observation!
One of my favorite critical thinking sites, which connects the process to a wider philosophy, is James Sedgwick's The Certainty Site.
| 125 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:48:47pm |
re: #107 Salem
Vast deserts. Vast mountain ranges. Vast Jungles. Vast Oceans. Fire-belching mena angry ball of burning gas in the sky. And what puts them all to shame? Parking lots.
Vast deserts are pretty neutral in the equation, as are high mountains. Jungle are being cut down at the rate of a Manhattan size every week (I guess, but may be underestimating). Large sectors of the northern Gulf of Mexico and other coastal areas are dead zones and net contributors to GW, not reducers. The bulk of the deep oceans are like deserts compared to the coastal areas.
I still have an open mind about this. You could be right, but I can tell you for sure that your type of argument will not be the one that proves it.
| 126 |
pingjockey Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:48:50pm |
re: #120 Sharmuta
Just use chickens. Aren't birds in tune with the earths magnetic field? Now how to get a chicken to hold dowsing rods could pose a problem.
| 129 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:49:18pm |
re: #124 Cato
Ger Randi to participate in that experiment and I'll bet he'll cough up the prize money.
| 130 |
itellu3times Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:49:43pm |
I don't know why Randi gives this the time of day.
Making rods move magically isn't the point of dowsing, it's the sensing of water, or whatever. Yeah, I know, the rods are supposed to move themselves, but so what if the operator moved them? I watched that bozo and saw his hands move, and still, so what? He was making them move in response to a MARKED PATH! Good grief! I'm not the tiniest bit interested in magical sticks that respond to a MARKED PATH! At least Randi points out that the blindfold is utterly meaningless when he already knew he was taking one step to get over the line.
The rods don't move without the operator, right? I mean, the operator doesn't sit in a chair and suck down beer, while the sticks fly about the lot and then point at the water. Even if you believe any of this.
Grumble.
| 132 |
itellu3times Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:51:08pm |
re: #112 Killgore Trout
It's a common look for skeptics. See: Daniel Dennett
I have a few years to go but I'm already cultivating that look.
iconoclasts
| 133 |
hazzyday Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:51:41pm |
re: #130 itellu3times
I don't know why Randi gives this the time of day.
Making rods move magically isn't the point of dowsing, it's the sensing of water, or whatever. Yeah, I know, the rods are supposed to move themselves, but so what if the operator moved them? I watched that bozo and saw his hands move, and still, so what? He was making them move in response to a MARKED PATH! Good grief! I'm not the tiniest bit interested in magical sticks that respond to a MARKED PATH! At least Randi points out that the blindfold is utterly meaningless when he already knew he was taking one step to get over the line.
The rods don't move without the operator, right? I mean, the operator doesn't sit in a chair and suck down beer, while the sticks fly about the lot and then point at the water. Even if you believe any of this.
Grumble.
I can go to sleep on a bus and wake up at my stop. It doesn't seem to be a miracle but is convenient.
| 134 |
Cato Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:52:31pm |
re: #129 Killgore Trout
He wouldn't cough up the prize money, but he did buy her a hamburger.
| 135 |
itellu3times Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:53:41pm |
re: #133 hazzyday
I can go to sleep on a bus and wake up at my stop. It doesn't seem to be a miracle but is convenient.
Good point. I can fall asleep to Jay Leno and wake up to the closing music, even with my eyes absolutely shut! Magic!
| 136 |
gmsc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:53:51pm |
re: #121 Charles
A little more information on 'junkscience.com' and who's behind it:
[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]
...and here's a little more on the Center for Media & Democracy, the "progressive" group behind sourcewatch.
Hey, if you can't trust the author of "How America Defeated Itself in Iraq", who can you trust?
| 137 |
Salem Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:54:56pm |
re: #125 Naso Tang
Vast deserts are pretty neutral in the equation, as are high mountains. Jungle are being cut down at the rate of a Manhattan size every week (I guess, but may be underestimating). Large sectors of the northern Gulf of Mexico and other coastal areas are dead zones and net contributors to GW, not reducers. The bulk of the deep oceans are like deserts compared to the coastal areas.
No simple explanations are possible any more, I see.
I apologize for being surly. I'll have to be more respectful of those I disagree with on this issue. It just seems so obvious to me. A con. Not even a clever con. A weird fever-dream kind of con. Anyway...
| 138 |
Claire Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:42pm |
I need to start my own religion. Apparently people can be made to believe anything.
| 139 |
dentate Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:46pm |
re: #112 Killgore Trout
It's a common look for skeptics. See: Daniel Dennett
I have a few years to go but I'm already cultivating that look.
I have the beard coming along but I just can't get my hair to all transfer down to my eyebrows.
| 140 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:56:40pm |
re: #137 Salem
No simple explanations are possible any more, I see.
I apologize for being surly. I'll have to be more respectful of those I disagree with on this issue. It just seems so obvious to me. A con. Not even a clever con. A weird fever-dream kind of con. Anyway...
There is hope for you yet..... :)
| 141 |
dentate Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:57:13pm |
re: #138 Claire
I need to start my own religion. Apparently people can be made to believe anything.
And think of the tax advantage
| 142 |
splat Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:57:22pm |
Randi is awesome, I've watched his stuff for a long time and it's a fasctinating spotlight on the tricks of con-artists. His demonstration of cold-reading psychics is just brilliant.
| 143 |
QueeQueeg Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:57:34pm |
A little more information on 'junkscience.com' and who's behind
And the Cato institute is patronised by Mr Randi's proteges Penn and Teller, who are firmly against the environmental tobacco smoke panic and very neutral over AGW 'We don't know'. Funny bunch Skeptics.
| 144 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:59:31pm |
re: #136 gmsc
...and here's a little more on the Center for Media & Democracy, the "progressive" group behind sourcewatch.
Hey, if you can't trust the author of "How America Defeated Itself in Iraq", who can you trust?
Facts are facts, no matter who publishes them.
| 145 |
Summer Seale Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:03:06pm |
re: #138 Claire
I need to start my own religion. Apparently people can be made to believe anything.
L. Ron Hubbard already did that with Scientology.
Get in line. =)
| 146 |
Randall Gross Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:04:59pm |
re: #88 chicagodudewhotrades
Well dowsing can't but a metal detector can for very similar reasons. It's about degrees of sensitivity. MAD detects the interuption in the magnetic field of the earth by a ferrous body obscuring that pattern by very sensitive instrumentation. Now think about how sensitive a couple of loose coat hangars in human hands could be. Can you use them to read braille?
Can you use your fingertips to read data off a hard drive, are they sensitive enough to changes in magnetic field?
| 148 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:08:07pm |
re: #147 snopercod
Just one question, why aren't you a millionaire already?
| 149 |
Basho Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:08:21pm |
| 150 |
Basho Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:09:13pm |
re: #24 Charles
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
What great psychic abilities you possess. It only took 147 comments.
| 152 |
Randall Gross Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:10:02pm |
re: #115 pat
So what when he was off by more than a million?
| 153 |
DisgustingOratory Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:27pm |
When I was into land surveying, my old boss instructed us to do this to locate underground utilities like pipelines and cables. I always thught I was the only one too dumb to do it right.
| 154 |
SDC Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:59pm |
re: #88 chicagodudewhotrades
Because MAD gear picks up the magnetic anomalies caused by a huge chunk of iron (the submarine) in the immediate area; experiments since the Middle Ages have shown that no such effect exists for water.
| 155 |
Caplady Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:15:57pm |
We live in rural Kansas. Growing up my father had a fellow come to our farm and he found water for us--he told Dad that there would be water at 75 feet or some such number but not to stop to go much farther(I have forgotten just how deep) and we would have all the water we ever wanted. The well driller found water at the first depth but they went on farther and found water where the guy said--we NEVER ran out of water--that well is still working today.
When I married we needed a new well so we had an old timer (Harry ) that came out and divined for us. He gave us the depth and we had water. It worked. Yes there are cons out there but we saw it work. We dealt with honest folk. I don't know anyone that is able to do it now. As a young kid Harry was lowered into well pits to pull rocks out of wells. He grew up to be an engineer but always would divine for you to help find water. He was a great guy. He always used a peach tree branch. He was amazing to watch. Most of the wells around here were found that way. It was a common occurrence.
| 156 |
kahall Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:17:30pm |
I'm against dowsing cuz you look like a bag of douche holding coat hangers and letting them lead the way.
I'm for global warming cuz it's cold.
| 157 |
snowcrash Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:17:36pm |
People believe all kinds of far fetched anecdotal claims about vitamins, nutritional supplements and home remedies too. No surprise about the water dowsing.
| 158 |
Madman2 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:17:47pm |
James Randi is great. I'm glad to see he's still around. He's the guy who appeared on the Johnny Carson show in the early 1970's with a video he made of a local televangelist. First they played the tape straight with the guy calling out the names and ailments of random people in the audience. Very impressive. Then they played the tape again, only this time Randi added in the audio of the radio chatter he picked up coming from one of the behind-the-scenes conspirators to a receiver disguised as a hearing aid worn by the televangelist. The conspirator was reading off of cards the audience members had filled out before the show with their names, addresses, illnesses they wanted to be cured of, and so on. Totally exposed the televangelist as a fraud on national TV!
I heard him give a talk at a local college about 15 years ago. He explained that he made a living as a professional magician for several years, then got very angry with others who used the same tricks to fool gullible people into believing they really had special powers. Some of these frauds resulted in death when the gullible individual would believe the fraudster could cure them and then ignore sound medical advice from their doctor. Ever since then Randi has been on a crusade for truth against paranormal shysters and others of similar ilk.
| 159 |
Cato the Elder Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:18:41pm |
re: #51 UncleRancher
A dear departed old friend of mine was a dowser. I watched him work. He walked the field with the rods, and when he came to the spot the rods would cross. The client was very impressed. Then he looked at me, and winked.
Heh. What a great story.
An easy way to test dowsing would be to dig the wells consistently, say, fifteen yards away from the indicated spot and see if there's water there anyway. But I guess anybody paying a dowser's fee would be loth to risk it.
| 160 |
Achilles Tang Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:18:45pm |
re: #115 pat
Cryosphere Today has removed all comments regarding the George Will column in view of the discovery that the satellite sensor was defective and the sensing data understated the arctic ice sheet by 500,000 square kilos. What is so strange about this is that discrepancies in the photographic evidence and the sensor data was apparent to many sometime ago. i believe there is a further understatement that has not been accounted for. Over the last week there was a significant build up off Baffin island that is not in the sensor data as well.
I still don't get this particular discussion. I have only seen the most general references to ice sheets without distinction between that which forms every winter over open ocean, and disappears in summer, and that which is connected to land and in contact with the continental shelf below, and that of the inland glaciers held back by the latter.
It is the last two that are of significance to long term trends.
| 161 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:19:17pm |
Well, there's our first dowsing meltdown.
I never would have believed it.
| 162 |
FlightERDoc Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:29:59pm |
Hell, I don't believe in it at all. But, when it came time to have a well drilled on my property the driller told me that he would drill where I told him, or he would guarantee water if he could dowse for it.
I let him, and he found water at around 300 feet down. Pretty good for this part of the world. I don't know if he's got divine guidance, is just really good at reading the surface record, or what - but he hadn't drilled a well within 25 miles of mine before.
| 163 |
swamprat Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:30:50pm |
I need money. Any one want to go in with me on the First Church Of Dowseology?
| 164 |
Randall Gross Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:32:34pm |
re: #155 Caplady
The high plains aquifer is pretty unconfined and uniform in its depth by region. It's public knowledge once a few wells are drilled in any area how deep you have to go:
The sand and gravel aquifer is unconfined (open) and is recharged by water infiltrating from above. Limited recharge occurs from precipitation and stream outflow. The aquifer's saturated zone is up to 425 m thick but aquifer dimensions vary along its length. It is always relatively shallow; the water table is typically less than 100 meters deep. The aquifer contains more than 3.3 billion acre-feet of water (1 acre-foot = ~326,000 gallons), more than the volume of water in Lake Huron.
| 165 |
songbird Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:33:14pm |
re: #155 Caplady
We live in rural Kansas. Growing up my father had a fellow come to our farm and he found water for us--he told Dad that there would be water at 75 feet or some such number but not to stop to go much farther(I have forgotten just how deep) and we would have all the water we ever wanted. The well driller found water at the first depth but they went on farther and found water where the guy said--we NEVER ran out of water--that well is still working today.
When I married we needed a new well so we had an old timer (Harry ) that came out and divined for us. He gave us the depth and we had water. It worked. Yes there are cons out there but we saw it work. We dealt with honest folk. I don't know anyone that is able to do it now. As a young kid Harry was lowered into well pits to pull rocks out of wells. He grew up to be an engineer but always would divine for you to help find water. He was a great guy. He always used a peach tree branch. He was amazing to watch. Most of the wells around here were found that way. It was a common occurrence.
I lived in Rural Kansas as well, and some good friends of mine needed to find their water lines and did so with the bent wires. I'm not saying there's all that to dowsing, but I've seen it work, too.
| 166 |
Gus Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:34:43pm |
Dowsing reemerged onto the American scene in the 1970s at the same time that ESP and paranormal activity became a fad. Randi of course debunked Uri Geller. At the same time we were bombarded with these myths with such programs as "The Sixth Sense" on TV and astronauts Edgar Mitchell's "lunar" ESP experiment on Apollo 14.
James Randi provided some hope in what seemed to me a hopelessly superstitious nation. His work has always provided many laughs as well including perhaps inspiring Penn and Teller's current work. It's unfortunate that his work gained less popularity than the superstitious refuse that is accepted by common folks.
I suggest that we employ dowsers for mine detection work. Seriously though, if you want to locate pipes or metal conduit the suggested practice is to use a metal detector and traditional surveying methods. Leave the dowsing for the circus show or as a sideline for the snake oil pitch.
| 167 |
Randall Gross Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:36:01pm |
re: #165 songbird
Did you ever stop to think that you could have drilled to the same depth anywhere on your property and achieve the same result? See my comment above.
Think about it: is the water in a lake uniform in surface? Would underground lakes have the same uniformity in surface in porous soil areas?
| 168 |
songbird Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:40:31pm |
re: #167 Thanos
Did you ever stop to think that you could have drilled to the same depth anywhere on your property and achieve the same result? See my comment above.
Think about it: is the water in a lake uniform in surface? Would underground lakes have the same uniformity in surface in porous soil areas?
My friends weren't drilling - just looking for existing water lines so they would not destroy them when they did some other digging. The "dig safe" people confirmed their 'dowsing'
| 169 |
songbird Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:42:09pm |
re: #167 Thanos
Did you ever stop to think that you could have drilled to the same depth anywhere on your property and achieve the same result? See my comment above.
Think about it: is the water in a lake uniform in surface? Would underground lakes have the same uniformity in surface in porous soil areas?
I do agree with you about the water table, though.
| 170 |
swamprat Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:45:53pm |
re: #161 Charles
Well, there's our first dowsing meltdown.
I never would have believed it.
Can you do a thread on bigfoot, ufo's or time travel.....just to test the fallout?
| 171 |
FredWM Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:47:40pm |
Randi has been running these tests for years. His psychic challenge prize had to do with naming a strange object on his desk in his attic; I don't think it was ever collected. His standard Dowsing challenge usual involves the dowser walking over a set area of ground twice, once to find and map all the water already there and once after Randi has put in a system of above ground pipes and covered them with a layer of soil. If dowsing really works then the challenger should be able to map out the water pipes. (Any hits at the water supposedly under the pipes are discounted as they were mapped initially.) Randi first got into the news with his debunking of the bending spoon craze in the 1970's. He was one of the founders of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (now called Committee for Skeptical Inquiry – CSI).
| 173 |
dhimmwit Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:56:33pm |
I used to work for the Department of Water Resources in AZ and I swear that some of the dowsers are pretty sly about their deception. They would purchase water supply reports and ask specific questions of the technical staff in order to increase the accuracy of the so-called predictions. Walking around with a dowsing rod or stick makes great theater - but good predictive accuracy - not so much. I have nothing but contempt for them because they prey on the public and unlike practicing geologists or hydrogeologists, they can't be sued for errors or omissions.
| 175 |
wiffersnapper Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:59:10pm |
It's like Penn and Teller Bullshit, minus the Penn and Teller
| 176 |
Randall Gross Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:03:26pm |
re: #168 songbird
My friends weren't drilling - just looking for existing water lines so they would not destroy them when they did some other digging. The "dig safe" people confirmed their 'dowsing'
Well then have your friends contact Randi, he can set up a course pretty fast, he's done it many times since the 80's. So far no dowser has come close.
Not trying to be smart here, just saying if he can really dowse there's money in it.
| 177 |
Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:09:07pm |
Gotta love Randi. My business involves audio/video, so he's been involved in offering proof of the uber exotic speaker cable tests as well. Some people just want to believe something.
| 178 |
callahan23 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:23:43pm |
re: #37 Killgore Trout
Last I heard Yuri Geller moved to Australia and was doing some psychic/alien from outer space type of thing. Randi was still busting him and Geller was still suing.
Uri Geller is currently doing the second season of "The next Uri Geller" show "Incredible Phenomena Live 2nd Season" on the private German TV channel Pro7.
And still selling the same old fare. Bogus of the "spiritual" kind. He still claims that all his tricks are for real and due to his psychic abilities.
Of course his fellow 'mentalists' are also endowed with special powers.
The link is the German TV channel Pro7.
-- Ugh what a bunch of crap. And lots of Germans are buying into it.
| 179 |
solomonpanting Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:40:10pm |
re: #24 Charles
I'm betting someone is going to turn up soon and defend dowsing.
Perhaps not a defense, but....
Years ago I was doing a job that required a concrete truck to navigate its way along one side of a house to the backyard. The homeowner gave myself and a partner a very general idea of the whereabouts of a septic tank buried on the side of the house where the truck was to pass.
My partner asked for two wire coat hangers, bent them into roughly the dimensions seen in this video and proceeded to find each of the four corners within a few inches. I was amazed, to say the least.
It was the first, and only time I'd ever seen someone dowsing.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
| 180 |
Mr Spiffy Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:41:02pm |
Seconding Walter here.
Watched "the Amazing Randi" many times on Sonny Fox's "Just for Fun" ( a locally produced kids show in New York). The most memorable time was watching him do Houdini's straight-jacket escape while suspended upside -down.
/nostalgia off
| 181 |
NortonPete Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:44:56pm |
re: #155 Caplady
I'm glad to watch James Randi and certainly there is quite a lot of bunko going out in them there hills, but it pales in comparison to Washington. I am a man of science and believe in the scientific method. I did witness dowsing that worked on two occasions but never saw it not work. Once in NH. where there had been a number of attempts to find water ( so they knew where it wasn't ). This dowsing fellow was so confident, and sure enough there was plenty of water where he dowsed. Many locals spoke up saying, "why didn't you call him first" because he had a nearly perfect track record ( perhaps he knew the local rock formations). Another story is very similar.
Magnetic imaging does work and I know people who have some kind of energy about them that when they walk under street lights the lights blow out. So anything might be possible especially if it happens in the middle of say Pennsylvania :)
| 182 |
Arby Dwiar Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:50:15pm |
re: #155 Caplady
We live in rural Kansas. Growing up my father had a fellow come to our farm and he found water for us--he told Dad that there would be water at 75 feet or some such number but not to stop to go much farther(I have forgotten just how deep) and we would have all the water we ever wanted. The well driller found water at the first depth but they went on farther and found water where the guy said--we NEVER ran out of water--that well is still working today.
When I married we needed a new well so we had an old timer (Harry ) that came out and divined for us. He gave us the depth and we had water. It worked. Yes there are cons out there but we saw it work. We dealt with honest folk. I don't know anyone that is able to do it now. As a young kid Harry was lowered into well pits to pull rocks out of wells. He grew up to be an engineer but always would divine for you to help find water. He was a great guy. He always used a peach tree branch. He was amazing to watch. Most of the wells around here were found that way. It was a common occurrence.
Have you read #102? No?
Oh, nevermind, nevermind!
We dug a well inside my parents' house to use for watering the grass. Where did we dig? Conveniently (in the basement of course) where the electric pump wouldn't be in the way, close to a power source, and where we could run the output pipe to the outdoors. And yes, to this day, it still produces all kinds of water.
| 183 |
calcajun Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:57:57pm |
I seem to recall seeing a magician meltdown once. Uri Gellar was on Carson's show, doing his psychic spoon-bending schtick. Carson, a former stage magician, picked up a spoon and promptly did the exact same thing Gellar had done. Gellar stormed off the set in a huff.
| 185 |
solomonpanting Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:08:37pm |
re: #184 buzzsawmonkey
Never invite Uri Geller to dinner if you are using the good silverware.
Use the plastic set. "Here, bend this without breaking it."
| 186 |
sadatoni Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:11:11pm |
Randi sure has aged since the last time I saw him.
| 187 |
garycooper Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:13:09pm |
re: #108 shiplord kirel
Before 9-11, I was a pretty frequent poster at skeptic sites and a fairly well-known contributor to various skeptical publications. Our concerns then seem almost quaint today: magnetic shoe inserts, bigfoot, and that pereniel favorite, the UFO industry. To make a long story short, the war has split the skeptic world into pro- and anti- war factions, the latter oriented toward a rational (that is, internally consistent) but counter-factual set of assumptions derived mostly from the post-60s media culture and the Madison Avenue hoax known as the 60s counterculture. Even the most rational thinkers, it seems, are prey to the habit of falling back on whatever affirms their existing prejudice. With a number of others, I left my favorite skeptic site because the leftist element was in control and could not be persuaded to apply the known principles of critical thinking to such things as the peace movement, media conformity, or anti-American hatred and bigotry. I can't say I was disappointed, since I could see it coming, but it was still devastating to see what I thought of as society's last hope, organized rationality, deteriorate into yet another nihilist propaganda forum.
Charles's attitude, and his recent emphasis on science, reason and, frankly, skepticism, are a breath of fresh air; and a confirmation to me that I have been on the right track after all.
You and I are like twins! Brothers from a different mother, as they say. ;)
To me, the schism among "rational skeptics" over such items as the need to defend ourselves vigorously from Islamist skanks, and the wacky confusion over AGW (which I still haven't seen my hero Randi torch with any conviction), shows how shaky and subject to bias even the most rational men of science and skepticism can be. When I first encountered Randi, I was reading of his debunking of charlatans like Uri Geller who had bamboozled men with doctorates in Physics, who just didn't have the knowledge and experience in sleight-of-hand known to sharpie-magicians like Randi. I was also reading everything I could find on the Great Houdini, who spent the latter part of his life debunking "spiritualists."
| 188 |
ryannon Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:15:31pm |
The real question is, should dowsing be taught in physics classes?
/
| 189 |
garycooper Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:16:34pm |
AGW is a TOTAL CROCK, and I speak as someone who has spent many years researching the subject, beginning as a believer with a very strong interest in environmentalist causes, which I maintain to this day. AGW is bullshit! If you believe in it, you are either ignorant or you've been fooled by the tsunami of crap that's been generated to help sell this great swindle to the public.
| 190 |
TheAntichrist Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:20:27pm |
re: #108 shiplord kirel
I know what you're talking about, but you just have to pick and choose your battles. I'm quite active on the JREF forums, not everyone there is a die-hard liberal.
But when it comes to politics, critical thinking tends to take a back seat, even among skeptics.
| 191 |
Basho Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:25:48pm |
re: #189 garycooper
First: Wrong thread
Second: You're an idiot
| 192 |
garycooper Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:49:20pm |
Well, maybe it's the wrong thread, but I'm not an idiot. In fact, I was always the "smart one," in every class I was in from 1st grade through my last year of law school. I was 99th percentile in Science, English and Reading, and a shameful 88th percentile in Math. I've just turned 50, so all that testing was a long time ago, but I've been keeping up with the major issues ever since, as far as I can tell. I was 99th percentile in my LSAT's, an admission that caused me major grief the last time this topic came up here.
I don't know too many "laymen" who've spent the amount of time I've done, researching the truth about AGW. All the ones I have come to respect, have been people whose livelihoods didn't depend on the continuation of this Massive Swindle.
You keep believing, though. If it helps you feel better about yourself as a "caring human being," be my guest. Whatever works, I always say.
| 193 |
Randall Gross Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:50:22pm |
re: #192 garycooper
Let me guess, your IQ is also 167.
| 195 |
Salem Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:03:28pm |
When I was a kid I believed in UFOs and ghosts (and God, but that's a story unto itself) and all manner of fantastic things. I didn't even know those things could be doubted. I remained interested in those subjects in my teen years but as a skeptic. So I'm somewhat familiar with the Amazing Randi because he is a noted debunker. I feel foolish questioning his objectivity but when someone who is supposed to be a staunch skeptic calls Al Gore a true statesman and unhesitatingly buys into his laughable presentation of AGW in An Inconvenient Truth, I feel as thought he has somewhat undermined his position in his chosen discipline or at least left no doubt that he occasionally falters in his his analysis (and don't we all), the questions of dowsing, ghosts and UFO's presumably notwithstanding.
| 196 |
brumor Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:06:52pm |
Laff all you want people, but it does work! I have used 1/8" x 36" brass brazing rods and found underground copper pipes and edges of septic tanks. I think it's a simple case of not wanting to pay off.
| 197 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:26:09pm |
re: #171 FredWM
Randi first got into the news with his debunking of the bending spoon craze in the 1970's.
Note that in the background of the video, next to the spinning globe, there's a little statuette of Randi himself holding a life-size metal spoon. I was disappointed to see that it didn't bend as we watched...
You actually could make a novelty spoon that would "magically bend itself," using a memory alloy such as nitinol -- but of course it couldn't continuously bend and unbend, but rather would have to be manually reset to its starting position between each "performance."
(As far as I know, Geller never resorted to "gimmick" spoons made with a special alloy like nitinol -- instead, he relied on sleight-of-hand and distraction in order to bend regular stainless steel spoons with ordinary muscle power, on the sly.)
| 198 |
hellosnackbar Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:28:52pm |
James Randi took part in an "Horizon" investigation of homeopathy some years ago.
The presenter was asked ;why a professional magician had been brought in to
what was a scientific investigation.
The presenter replied that he'd been a Randi fan for years and he knew nobody more astute at detecting any kind of misleading "hanky panky".
As it happened ,Randi took a major part in the debunking of one of the silliest forms of alternative medecine that is homeopathy.
| 199 |
Gus Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:29:52pm |
Crosspost
Phil Plait
Bad Astronomy, James Randi Educational Foundation
and
Carl Zimmer
carlzimmer.com, The LoomWill the Internet save us from nonsense and superstition?
The odds you'll be killed by an asteroid
How cell phones and security cameras turn citizens into scientists
Have newspapers already lost out to bloggers?
The future for NASA
Big questions Phil hopes we'll answer soon
[Link: bloggingheads.tv...]
| 200 |
Brit in Japan Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:31:48pm |
Well I think there is a controversy, and there are gaps in the evidence, so we ought to teach dowsing to the kids and let them decide. ////
[Actually, at least you could actually test dowsing scientifically and falsify it - as the resounding failure of anyone to claim this million bucks shows.]
BiJ
| 201 |
Kaymad Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:42:48pm |
re: #102 gmsc
I'm sure you're right. But some homesteaders lost everything because they couldn't locate water on their property. I remembered the story from the book because the woman said they bought the farm from someone who couldn't locate a water source. They didn't know that until after they bought it. The divining rod seemed to do the trick and I do realize he probably just got lucky.
| 202 |
NortonPete Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:44:14pm |
re: #192 garycooper
Amen brother. Its a swindle for money. Sounds like you and I have had more college level science courses than big Al. ( Political science major ).
Three people sleeping produce more CO2 than an SUV on the way to work.
God help us all.
| 203 |
victor_yugo Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:48:34pm |
I know I'm coming in late, but...
I don't need James Randi's agreement to know that I can dowse. Nor do I need his agreement to know what I saw when another dowser got blisters on her hand from the willow branch pulling down hard. It was not a parlor trick, there was water there (we found it when we drilled, it was about ten feet down), and no amount of proof will ever satisfy James Randi.
| 204 |
garycooper Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:13:36pm |
re: #193 Thanos
Let me guess, your IQ is also 167.
Couldn't tell you. Never had it tested. I don't think it's very important, anyway. EQ is much more telling, imho.
| 205 |
garycooper Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:17:41pm |
re: #203 victor_yugo
I know I'm coming in late, but...
I don't need James Randi's agreement to know that I can dowse. Nor do I need his agreement to know what I saw when another dowser got blisters on her hand from the willow branch pulling down hard. It was not a parlor trick, there was water there (we found it when we drilled, it was about ten feet down), and no amount of proof will ever satisfy James Randi.
You can't use the money, offered for a successful demonstration of dowsing? I know I could! My kids have suddenly reached college age, and their college funds have been cut in half in the past year, along with my 401k.
Wish I could dowse like a MF'er! I'd take that money. :)
| 206 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:22:06pm |
re: #203 victor_yugo
I know I'm coming in late, but...
I don't need James Randi's agreement to know that I can dowse. Nor do I need his agreement to know what I saw when another dowser got blisters on her hand from the willow branch pulling down hard. It was not a parlor trick, there was water there (we found it when we drilled, it was about ten feet down), and no amount of proof will ever satisfy James Randi.
It may well be that deep down inside, James Randi will "never be satisfied" that dowsing is real.
However -- to collect the million bucks, you don't need to convince Randi to the very core of his soul that dowsing works; you need merely demonstrate your dowsing accuracy by successfully locating a few concealed targets on an artificial course constructed by Randi's testers. On the artificial courses, all the targets may be buried within a few inches of the surface -- so if dowsing is "real," passing Randi's test ought to be a breeze compared with locating water that's 75 feet down.
Yet thus far, no dowser has won the challenge.
| 207 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:32:03pm |
re: #161 Charles
Well, there's our first dowsing meltdown.
I never would have believed it.
ROFL! I wish I'd managed to see it before it got zapped.
| 209 |
Henchman Ghazi-808 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:36:09pm |
re: #203 victor_yugo
no amount of proof will ever satisfy James Randi.
Actually, proof will satisfy James Randi. Nobody can give any so the cool million is still there.
| 210 |
kayfromcarroll Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:41:20pm |
re: #192 garycooper
Gary--I agree with you wholeheartedly! When AGW first reared its ugly head, I began yelling at the TV "There was jungle vegetation in nothwestern Pennsylvania, you numbskulls! Where do you think coal and natural gas comes from?"
I've been reminding my teenage son of this for the last 8 years. Warming and cooling is something the earth has always done. Humans are just not that important in the whole scheme of things, AGW-wise.
| 211 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:09:56pm |
re: #62 HelloDare
There is another form of dowsing. People dangle a pendulum and ask questions. Here's a website.
re: #101 hazzyday
Ideomotor Effect. The unconscious mind is very difficult to measure or determine.
The "pendulum oracle" described by HelloDare is a classic example of the "ideomotor effect" in action. In one traditional version, the pendulum was a pregnant woman's wedding ring [That right there tells you how quaint this custom is! --ed.] that was dangled by a fine thread over her belly in order to predict the sex of the unborn child. If the ring moved in a circular motion, she was going to have a girl, while a back-and-forth linear motion meant a boy -- or was it the other way around?
Of course, sometimes it wasn't just an innocent parlor game -- if you were a snake-oil peddler or an old Gypsy woman or some other traveling charlatan, you could throw in some scary interpretation such as "ooh, a counter-clockwise circle -- that means a stillbirth!" in order to frighten the pregnant gal into purchasing one of your "cures."
I can't recall ever personally seeing anyone using the ring-pendulum with a pregnant woman -- I've only read about the practice in books. But in my junior year of high school, after our Class Rings were delivered, some girls I was friends with got into an animated discussion about how you could dangle a ring from a thread to make some sort of prediction about the man you were destined to marry. (They weren't discussing it as something they really believed in, but rather as "something we used to do during sleepovers in fifth-grade" -- i.e., they were talking about it as a "schoolgirl folk custom.")
Anyway, being a super-geek, I interrupted their conversation with: "Oh, actually, that's called the ideomotor effect" -- something I'd probably read about in one of Isaac Asimov's non-fiction essays. I continued, "and Ouija Boards work by a similar principle" -- at which point my attempt at explaining the ideomotor effect was derailed into a discussion of people who'd gone incurably insane as a result of fooling around with Ouija Boards.
(I eventually asked for and received a Ouija Board as a Christmas present, determined to prove to my friends at school that it was just a silly mass-produced game from freakin' Parker Brothers -- but of course, none of them were willing to risk Satanic possession by touching the thing.)
| 212 |
Throbert McGee Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:35:00pm |
re: #211 Throbert McGee
(I eventually asked for and received a Ouija Board as a Christmas present, determined to prove to my friends at school that it was just a silly mass-produced game from freakin' Parker Brothers -- but of course, none of them were willing to risk Satanic possession by touching the thing.)
Heh... the wiki article on Ouija describes an ingeniously revealing experiment performed on Penn and Teller's show Bullshit!.
They began with a round of "Yes or No" questions addressed to a deceased spirit, which produced consistently "decisive" answers. Which is to say, the "planchette" (i.e., the pointer that comes with the Ouija board) went directly to the "Yes" and "No" spots printed on the board, rather drifting around aimlessly or moving towards the letters/numbers on the board. And then a small modification was introduced to the experiment:
The participants were then blindfolded and the board was turned 180 degrees without their knowledge. With continued questioning, the planchette then traveled to bare areas of the board where the participants believed the "Yes" and "No" marks were located.
This is actually better than the idea I had in high school for debunking the Ouija board: My proposal was to ask it about the maiden names of 19th-century First Ladies (and similar trivia that no living person is likely to no off the top of his head, but that is readily verified in an Encyclopedia). But the problem with my test is that a Ouija Believer could say, "Oh, when the board told you that Mrs. Grover Cleveland's maiden name was Moon Unit Al-Shabazz, that was just Satan throwing in an obvious fake answer so that you'd let your guard down."
| 213 |
UncleSam Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:33:58pm |
The whole AGW hoax is nothing more than a scam to steal your money and freedom.
It's a way to invade, control and tax every moment of your life and every action you take.
Just wait, they'll put a tax on you for the carbon dioxide you exhale.
| 214 |
FredWM Sun, Feb 22, 2009 8:59:44pm |
The Obama administration is about to declare CO2 a pollutant and being controlling its release into the atmosphere. Now, let's just think about the implications of this for a moment. If the Federal government controls CO2, what doesn't it control? This will be a regulators nirvana. Why the Feds can start limiting the manufacture, shipping, construction and distribution of just about every item you can imagine: from BBQ grills to road construction to airplane usage to lawn mowers to the interstate shipping of Barbie dolls. Once they control CO2 emissions they control life.
| 215 |
UncleSam Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:11:23pm |
re: #214 FredWM
The Obama administration is about to declare CO2 a pollutant and being controlling its release into the atmosphere. Now, let's just think about the implications of this for a moment. If the Federal government controls CO2, what doesn't it control? This will be a regulators nirvana. Why the Feds can start limiting the manufacture, shipping, construction and distribution of just about every item you can imagine: from BBQ grills to road construction to airplane usage to lawn mowers to the interstate shipping of Barbie dolls. Once they control CO2 emissions they control life.
Damn straight!
And it's so arrogant to think that just the US controlling CO2 would have any global effect, anyway.
Hey, let's get rid of all CO2 and kill off all plant life, and thus all life except some microbes, maybe, on Earth.
These idiots don't even seem to be aware that plants breathe CO2 like we breathe oxygen.
Not that they care, because it's all just a fraud to justify the greatest power grab in history.
| 216 |
victor_yugo Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:22:54pm |
re: #209 BigPapa
Actually, proof will satisfy James Randi. Nobody can give any so the cool million is still there.
Nonsense. I've seen his requirements for proof on other so-called "paranormal" phenomena. It's as vague as the jihadist's definition of "enemy", vague enough to suit his purpose (not admitting that he doesn't know it all).
| 217 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:48:21pm |
Library, The Matter of Dowsing.
I ask all those who wish to claim the prize based upon their dowsing skills to first try a double-blind test of their abilities. We at the JREF can advise you how to design such a test protocol. You will find, I assure you, that the description above of the ideomotor effect will be proven valid. And I know full well that you, as a dowser, will refuse this advice and believe that, for you, such a procedure is not necessary. I base this conclusion on my many years of handling dowsing claimants.
Go ahead, victor_yugo. If you're that confident in your dowsing abilities, you'll be a millionaire before you know it. A double-blind test should be easy.
| 218 |
brandon13 Sun, Feb 22, 2009 10:54:27pm |
I just wanted an excuse to post this.
| 219 |
Mr. Sandman Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:06:47pm |
Here's a clip from a special TV program Dawkins did a couple of years ago, if anyone wants to see explicitly what a rigorous double-blind scientific test of dowsing entails:
| 220 |
Lizardoid Minion #32603 Mon, Feb 23, 2009 2:04:59am |
re: #216 victor_yugo
You are completely missing the point.
Every so-called "psychic" claims something different, so there can be no single test. Instead, the test is tailored to exactly what it is that you claim to be able to do.
There are two stages to the Million Dollar Challenge, an informal preliminary test, and a formal, very carefully controlled test. No-one has ever passed the preliminary test.
| 221 |
rikzilla Mon, Feb 23, 2009 3:44:28am |
re: #216 victor_yugo
Nonsense. I've seen his requirements for proof on other so-called "paranormal" phenomena. It's as vague as the jihadist's definition of "enemy", vague enough to suit his purpose (not admitting that he doesn't know it all).
How so? The applicant is the one who has to say definitively what it is that they can do. He merely requires that they do what they say they can do in the simplest way. I mean c'mon! Randi gets some of the weirdest people on the planet (and beyond if you believe them) trying to win the prize. He once had a claimant who believed that all the world's events were controlled by a demon who lived in a crack in a rock...and apparently the guy would feed the rock-crack demon. So let's see you devise a sane test for that!
Randi has tested many, many, many dowsers...they are all the same...they aren't scammers like the faith healers...they are simply seriously self deluded. The self deluded are the toughest to reach.
-z
| 222 |
SalsaNChips Mon, Feb 23, 2009 4:13:06am |
Rotating Globe. Hypnotic. Can't stop watching. Must have one...
Randi is a pretty cool guy.
| 223 |
goforbroke Mon, Feb 23, 2009 6:36:56am |
To each their own!
I knew a man named Paul Clarence Brown, he was a dowser that worked for Union Oil and Occidental petroleum. He had more success than geologists working for those entities at that time.
[Link: books.google.com...]
I'm just saying
re: #24 Charles
| 224 |
goforbroke Mon, Feb 23, 2009 6:50:45am |
And he died a rich old man. Didn't need the million dollars
re: #223 goforbroke
| 225 |
Pygmalienation Mon, Feb 23, 2009 7:25:12am |
I chalk up dowsing to the "gee, it sounds good, it must be true" mentality. I've seen otherwise intelligent people--who you'd think would know better ( ie. a retired NASA engineer ) brook no argument against it. It's kind of like the claims of health food/supplement purveyors and crystal "healers".
| 226 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Mon, Feb 23, 2009 7:50:34am |
re: #203 victor_yugo
Nor do I need his agreement to know what I saw when another dowser got blisters on her hand from the willow branch pulling down hard.
I take it dowsers normally wear gloves then, to protect their hand-skin against the terrible forces that dowsing can unleash?/
| 227 |
Ayeless in Ghazi Mon, Feb 23, 2009 7:56:42am |
re: #225 Pygmalienation
I don't know what it is about engineers but they seem (speaking very generally here obviously) to be rather prone to believing in silly things. They also have a terrrible tendency to sign petitions in which they claim to be scientists.
| 228 |
Pygmalienation Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:12:48am |
re: #227 Jimmah
In this case it was my father-in-law and I was just trying to pin him down regarding what he thought were the underlying causes of the "phenomenon"--was it electrostatic, electro-magnetism, quantum mechanics, etc? In other words, there would have to be a scientific explanation based on some force in action. I was just trying to be the good, healthy skeptic son-in-law, lol! He could'nt give me a satisfactory answer, but was adamant that it worked... Ah well, I love the old guy anyway.
| 229 |
victor_yugo Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:17:09am |
Wow, the thread is still alive.
I have no problem with skeptics. The problem I have with James Randi is that, no matter how obvious what's before his eyes, he'll simply claim that he hasn't looked hard enough yet for the damning evidence. You know, kind of like Democrats looking for anything against George H. W. Bush.
But here's what I remember:
The sticks weren't "tricked". My dad provided them, and made me take note of cut patterns.
They were willow, about a foot and a half long, and in a Y shape. This is important.
The dowser held them in the usual way AFAIK, at the top of the Y, palms up, held in position with her thumbs.
When she was over what became our well, the sticks were bending downward in the dowser's hands. I pushed on the pointing end, and could feel the downward force. And there's no way she could provide that much resistance with just her thumbs. Something else was pulling that stick down, as I said, hard enough to give her blisters. Jimmah, in answer to your query, she did have to put on some cotton gloves after about 20 minutes.
My method involves the L-shaped wires that cross over water (metal coat hangers works). That's how I found the septic tank that was there before we moved to that property. In fact, that was the day I found out what a septic tank is.
I won't say it's supernatural, or paranormal, only unexplained. Remember, lodestones were once considered the devil's gift to witches, and the glass armonica was condemned as demonic before the lead's trans-dermal movement was understood. We may someday understand the physics behind dowsing, and maybe even build machines based on that physics. In the meantime, James Randi may be a good magician, but he's out of his depth to say that the well in my parents' back yard was blind luck or just a cheap parlor trick pulled over on a bunch of dupes.
| 230 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:25:47am |
re: #229 victor_yugo
In the meantime, James Randi may be a good magician, but he's out of his depth to say that the well in my parents' back yard was blind luck or just a cheap parlor trick pulled over on a bunch of dupes.
Well, if you're that confident dowsing really works, what's stopping you from doing the tests and claiming that million bucks?
If I knew I was able to detect the presence of water with two wooden sticks, I'd be on the phone to JREF and collecting that check, tomorrow.
Oh, but I forgot -- it's Randi who's the fraud. Right.
| 231 |
haakondahl Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:56:37am |
re: #229 victor_yugo
James Randi may be a good magician, but he's out of his depth to say that the well in my parents' back yard was blind luck or just a cheap parlor trick pulled over on a bunch of dupes.
Occam's razor would indicate that a bunch of dupes are out of their depth, falling for a cheap parlor trick while calling James Randi a fool.
If the force is exerted on the rods by the environment, a machine can do dowsing, and better than a person. Where's the machine? If the force is exerted on the rods by a person, no machine will be built.
| 232 |
dave aaa Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:00:02am |
re: #42 Dave the.....
Hey Charles, it worked on Gilligan's Island. Or are you one of those conspiracy kooks who think the whole island was filmed at some studio back lot.
Those poor people!
| 233 |
SalsaNChips Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:58:09am |
BTW, in case anybody wants to know, the slowly rotating globe behind Randi is a "Mova Globe" (put it in a search engine for more info).
No batteries or extrenal power required, it operates using only the energy of room light and the force of the earths magnetic field.
They are about $100.00 (I just ordered one). Pretty cool...
| 234 |
victor_yugo Mon, Feb 23, 2009 2:01:56pm |
re: #230 Charles
Well, if you're that confident dowsing really works, what's stopping you from doing the tests and claiming that million bucks?
If I knew I was able to detect the presence of water with two wooden sticks, I'd be on the phone to JREF and collecting that check, tomorrow.
It's tempting. But James Randi is not a scientific person. He has already decided that he can explain everything, even if the only explanation he has is to accuse people, sight-unseen, of being swindles, cheats, liars, and crooks, and all he needs is enough time to prove it. Some people are, but JR crosses a line to say all dowsers (or whatever) are.
We have not yet explained, let alone harnessed, every force in the universe. Have we yet explained the instantaneous collapsing of bound electrons great distances apart? It's observed, even duplicated at will, but AFAIK the interaction isn't yet explained. That doesn't make it any less real.
| 235 |
rikzilla Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:02:22pm |
James Randi is no scientist...this is very true. But he is an expert...an expert on how peopled are fooled...but even more important he's an expert on how they fool themselves. Dowsers are not liars, cheats, or crooks (for the most part) they are simply people who have deluded themselves. They've fooled themselves out of a complete lack of critical thinking...and teaching critical thinking skills is exactly what the jref was created to advance.
-z
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Alone in a Bathroom: The Fear and Uncertainty of a Post-Roe Medication Abortion Angel tucked two white pills into each side of her mouth, bracing herself as they began to dissolve. Her deepest fears and anxieties took over. Angel had wanted to talk to a doctor before she took the pills to ... Cheechako
They Were Desperate to Get Pregnant. Then IVF Gave Them Extra Embryos. One morning last spring, Ashley Harrolle put her 1-year-old daughter down for a nap and went to the kitchen. She pulled up her fertility clinic’s contact information. It was time to make the call. In a freezer several hundred ... CheechakoJoe Bacon ✅
March FavoritesYou've seen these all already but looking back, just because. These are my favorite shots of this last month. That 1937 Zeiss Sonnar is such a gloriously wonderful bit of glass. Thanks for looking.
William Lewis
Russia’s New Combat Robots Blown Up by Drones Near Avdiivka When we landed on the moon, I thought about how science fiction had become real. Now, the robot wars have begun. It's more poignant somehow on the ground than in the missile wars we have in the air as ...
Rightwingconspirator
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... CheechakoKGxvi
Abortions Outside Medical System Increased Sharply After Roe Fell, Study Finds The number of women using abortion pills to end their pregnancies on their own without the direct involvement of a U.S.-based medical provider rose sharply in the months after the Supreme Court eliminated a constitutional right to abortion, according ... Cheechako
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ... Cheechako
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
