George Will Misrepresents Climate Change Study, Part Deux

Science • Views: 3,218

Carl Zimmer has posted an interesting response to the points that were raised repeatedly in yesterday’s comment thread on George Will’s climate change column: A Wrinkle In Ice (or Not).

In his reply to me, Chapman explained that the two research centers, NSIDC and ACRC, both use the SSMI satellite readings, but they have different methods for building their time series. Chapman and his colleagues at ACRC use a composite of three sequential days for their ice cover readings. If a swath of data is missing on one particular day, they can go back to the previous day’s concentrations. If there are still missing regions, they go one more day back.

“Missing regions or swaths of data have always occurred from time to time in the SSMI record, which is why we set it up this way,” Chapman explained.

Despite the recent trouble with the SSMI satellite, Chapman said the three-day-composites have still been meaningful. “As one check, we have been comparing our time series with those from the independent data source AMSR-E. They are just about identical so we are comfortable that our time series remain solid. Our time series and therefore the statement are unaffected by the recent satellite problems. If the sensor degrades a lot more, our numbers will be affected, but to date, they are not.”

I then asked what he thought about the Washington Post’s support of Will’s claim about ice. (To recap again, their support was decidedly roundabout. A January 1 post on a blog called Daily Tech claimed that global ice cover in late 2008 were unchanged from 1979. In response to that blog post, the Center posted a pdf on their web site explaining that “observed global sea ice area, defined here as a sum of N. Hemisphere and S. Hemisphere sea ice areas, is near or slightly lower than those observed in late 1979.” But then the scientists also explained that climate models predict a decline in Arctic ice, but are less certain about Antarctica, with some even suggesting an increase–making measurements of global sea ice not terribly relevant to the question of climate change. The Post ignored that part.)

Here’s Chapman’s reply:

Since their statements were based on the end of the previous year, and more importantly the end of 1979, the statement ‘global sea ice levels now equal those of 1979′ just didn’t make sense any more. We have received 80-100 emails from confused people who had read George’s column and looked up the graphs on the Cryosphere Today [one of the center’s web pages] and said they came to a different conclusion, or, could we point them to the report that said that Feb 1979 and Feb 2009 sea ice area was nearly the same. We had to post the current and corresponding 1979 values to avoid the inconsistency that readers were noting. After doing some googling, it appears that Daily Tech article got repeated on a lot of blogs, so it’s not surprising George Will came across it at some point. Still it was sloppy for them to not double check with the original source and it really points out the danger of making any conclusions on climate change based on any two days in history. I really wish they would have contacted us at some point to avoid this.

Our goal is to present the data in as concise and useful format as possible for interested users. Whether the Washington Post decides to publish a correction is up to them.

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548 comments
1 Chicken Kiev  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:41:54pm

Anthropogenic global warming is hooey.

2 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:42:25pm

One more thing that does not help conservatives.

3 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:43:29pm

Where there's a Will, there's a sway.

4 Racer X  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:46:48pm
5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:46:49pm

Dowsing, creationism and Global Warming. Oh My!

6 UncleRancher  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:46:50pm

All these people talk about global warming like they were some kind of expert. Every one of them believes CO2 is some kind of greenhouse gas as if water vapor has nothing to do with the equilibrium point and solar cycles have no effect.

If you eliminate CO2 from the atmosphere then we'll all be in serious trouble.

7 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:47:05pm

I'm glad this site remains true to fact checking. It's important.

8 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:47:31pm

re: #6 UncleRancher

All these people talk about global warming like they were some kind of expert. Every one of them believes CO2 is some kind of greenhouse gas as if water vapor has nothing to do with the equilibrium point and solar cycles have no effect.

If you eliminate CO2 from the atmosphere then we'll all be in serious trouble.

The only greenhouse gas that frightens me is the ones eminating from Taco Bell.

9 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:47:33pm

re: #1 Chicken Kiev

Anthropogenic global warming is hooey.


That may be but George Will is still full of shit.

10 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:48:16pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

That may be but George Will is still full of shit.

And, as a consequence, greenhouse gases!

11 pat  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:48:30pm

AGW is hooey indeed. We have been warming for 30,000 years, with the intensity significantly increasing for the last 10,000. There are intermediate periods of climate change off the norm. Hopefully we will continue to warm a bit.

12 Racer X  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:49:47pm

re: #10 Wyatt Earp

I got your greenhouse gas right here.

13 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:51:31pm

re: #12 Racer X

I got your greenhouse gas right here.

Now, I would support legislation for that!

14 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:51:49pm

I propose that our third party be called "The Science and Reason Party." It would devoted to time-honored and objectively proven principles of conservative thought, but free of superstition and media incited nonsense. Barry Goldwater would have understood this. As the creator of the modern conservative movement, his ideas as laid out in Conscience of a Conservative were solidly rooted in the Enlightenment. The latter of course was an intellectual response to the scientific advances of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and the real origin of the principles that led to the American Revolution and the Constitution.

15 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:52:01pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout
One more killer thread and Charles hits for the cycle!

16 UncleRancher  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:52:20pm

re: #12 Racer X

I got your greenhouse gas right here.

That's BAAAAD

17 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:52:25pm

re: #4 Racer X

18 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:53:00pm

To tell the truth- I'm hesitant to call myself a skeptic anymore because creationists are latching onto AGW denial. Such is their level of denial of reality that I don't want to be connected to them in any way.

19 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:53:07pm

OT Pam is posting at stalker II

20 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:53:31pm

re: #19 Pvt Bin Jammin

OT Pam is posting at stalker II

Did you hear that? That was the sound of my head exploding.

21 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:53:52pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

To tell the truth- I'm hesitant to call myself a skeptic anymore because creationists are latching onto AGW denial. Such is their level of denial of reality that I don't want to be connected to them in any way.

Why let them dictate?

22 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:54:10pm

re: #19 Pvt Bin Jammin

OT Pam is posting at stalker II

The home of the pissed-off trucker?

23 KingKenrod  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:54:52pm

There's a graph at that Daily Tech article which shows that sea ice levels in 2008 were indeed equal to levels in 1979 - but it depends on which month you do the comparison.

[Link: www.dailytech.com...]

Anyone who reads that Daily Tech article and looks at the graph would reach the same conclusion. Is it fair to accuse Will of misrepresenting? Isn't this just sloppy journalism?

24 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:02pm

re: #20 Wyatt Earp

LOL

BTW while catching up on some older threads I became aware of the fallen officer in your division. My deepest sympathies to his family and extended family.

25 pingjockey  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:16pm

Nap time!

26 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:49pm

re: #19 Pvt Bin Jammin

OT Pam is posting at stalker II

You know they're insane when ChenZhen sounds like the reasonable one.

27 Racer X  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:50pm

Here's the main problem I have with AGW. There are many scientists who look at the data that shows there is in fact global warming. Then they go about trying to prove it is in fact caused by man. Whenever anyone questions the link to man they go batshit insane.

Why not look at outside forces? Why not pursue data that shows global warming could indeed be driven by the sun? Or nature?

Its like they already know the answer they want, they just need to prove it. That's not science. That's politics.

28 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:54pm

re: #25 pingjockey

Nap time!

Are ya dowsy?

29 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:55:57pm

re: #22 MandyManners

The home of the pissed-off trucker?

How'd ya guess?

30 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:56:39pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

You know they're insane when ChenZhen sounds like the reasonable one.

I noticed that too. LOL

31 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:56:45pm

re: #29 Pvt Bin Jammin

How'd ya guess?

Mutual attraction?

32 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:56:48pm

re: #14 Shiplord Kirel

I emphatically agree, great post.

33 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:57:50pm

re: #31 MandyManners

Mutual attraction?

LOL

34 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:58:10pm

re: #19 Pvt Bin Jammin

OT Pam is posting at stalker II

I think it's great that Spencer and Geller are hooking up with those psychos. They should be encouraged to do more of this kind of thing.

35 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:58:14pm

re: #14 Shiplord Kirel

Zombie is still on the Tea Party thread- go tell him/her/it.

36 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:58:26pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

To tell the truth- I'm hesitant to call myself a skeptic anymore because creationists are latching onto AGW denial. Such is their level of denial of reality that I don't want to be connected to them in any way.

Sharm I share your desire to avoid guilt by association. However, I also know that you are an articulate person who can present a very accurate, bold, and concise argument. Being a skeptic based on your research and available facts is fine; there is actual science behind both positions for and against AGW. There is no science behind creationism and I think that to compare ones support for one as tacit approval of the other is illogical. You are a logical person and should be able to explain this quite well.

37 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:58:32pm

re: #24 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL

BTW while catching up on some older threads I became aware of the fallen officer in your division. My deepest sympathies to his family and extended family.

Thank you much!

38 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 12:58:55pm

re: #34 Charles

I think it's great that Spencer and Geller are hooking up with those psychos. They should be encouraged to do more of this kind of thing.

Isn't that the truth.

39 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:00:48pm

re: #38 Pvt Bin Jammin

You're very welcome. It broke my heart to hear about it.

40 pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:00:51pm

Here is a statement from the WaPo's ombudsman re George Will's article. I haven't read the UI pdf they cite below as a reference, so no telling what's in there....

Dear Mr. Johnson,

Thank you for your e-mail. The Post’s ombudsman typically deals with issues involving the news pages. But I understand the point you and many e-mailers are making, and for that reason I sought clarification from the editorial page editors. Basically, I was told that the Post has a multi-layer editing process and checks facts to the fullest extent possible. In this instance, George Will’s column was checked by people he personally employs, as well as two editors at the Washington Post Writers Group, which syndicates Will; our op-ed page editor; and two copy editors. The University of Illinois center that Will cited has now said it doesn’t agree with his conclusion, but earlier this year it put out a statement ([Link: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu...] that was among several sources for this column and that notes in part that “Observed global sea ice area, defined here as a sum of N. Hemisphere and S. Hemisphere sea ice areas, is near or slightly lower than those observed in late 1979,”

Best wishes,
Andy Alexander
Washington Post Ombudsman

41 itellu3times  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:01:07pm

Here is some excellent science.

Scientists close in on 'universal' vaccine for flu: study

Scientists on Sunday unveiled lab-made human antibodies that can disable several types of influenza, including highly-lethal H5N1 bird flu and the "Spanish Flu" strain that killed tens of millions in 1918.

Tested in mice, the antibodies work by binding to a previously obscure structure in the flu virus which, when blocked, sabotages the pathogen's ability to enter the cell it is trying to infect, according to the study.
...
"We believe ... the hemagglutin protein acts as a decoy by constantly undergoing mutation and thereby attracting the immune system to produce antibodies against it rather than against the pocket in the neck of the protein," Marasco said a statement.

...

42 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:01:30pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

To tell the truth- I'm hesitant to call myself a skeptic anymore because creationists are latching onto AGW denial. Such is their level of denial of reality that I don't want to be connected to them in any way.

You're not the only one weary of the word skeptic being debased:
[Link: www.randi.org...]

43 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:01:46pm

Both Pamela and Robert are bemoaning the failure of an attempt in Canada to get the Quran banned as hate speech.....
B.C. man who filed human rights complaint after reading Koran has case dismissed

A B.C. man who filed a human rights complaint after buying a copy of the Koran at a Chapters bookstore has had that complaint dismissed.

John Simpson alleged certain verses of the Koran discriminate against people of Christian and Jewish faith and filed his complaint against Indigo Books & Music Inc. (TSX:IDG), the store's parent company.

Simpson's complaint came under Section 7 of the Human Rights Code.

The section states that a person must not publish any statement that is likely to expose a person or group to hatred or contempt because of their religion.

But B.C. Human Rights Tribunal member Barbara Humphreys says Simpson didn't explain how the Koran, the central religious text of Islam that has existed for more than 1,300 years, had a negative impact on him.

Humphreys dismissed the case after ruling that Simpson's complaint would not further the purposes of the Human Rights Code.

Mr. Spencer sez.....

....the purpose of the Human Rights Code is to silence criticism of Islamic jihad supremacism, not to put pressure on Muslims because of Islam's violent and supremacist doctrines.


Pamela sez....

But but but we're offended by the incitement to genocide of non-believers. WE ARE INSULTED!


So much for free speech in the counterjihad movement. They are simply trying to twist unfair laws to their advantage and only bitching when the speech they oppose isn't silenced.
/Go ahead, sue me, Robert.

44 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:02:06pm

re: #36 Jetpilot1101

Sharm I share your desire to avoid guilt by association. However, I also know that you are an articulate person who can present a very accurate, bold, and concise argument. Being a skeptic based on your research and available facts is fine; there is actual science behind both positions for and against AGW. There is no science behind creationism and I think that to compare ones support for one as tacit approval of the other is illogical. You are a logical person and should be able to explain this quite well.

Part of why I'm a skeptic is because I haven't looked at the data. It is on me to look and check the facts. I've had other things to deal with, and just haven't turned my attention to climate change. I accept it happens- there is no denying climate change. And I do believe we should be good stewards, but I need to research more before I reach a conclusion about man's impact.

But there is no doubt in my mind that the creationists latching onto this makes me uncomfortable. They just want to damage science and will use anything to further that goal.

45 Racer X  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:02:17pm

re: #22 MandyManners

The home of the pissed-off trucker?

cutestguy?

LOL!

46 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:02:36pm

re: #40 pianobuff

This is addressed right there in the quote I posted. Again:

To recap again, their support was decidedly roundabout. A January 1 post on a blog called Daily Tech claimed that global ice cover in late 2008 were unchanged from 1979. In response to that blog post, the Center posted a pdf on their web site explaining that “observed global sea ice area, defined here as a sum of N. Hemisphere and S. Hemisphere sea ice areas, is near or slightly lower than those observed in late 1979.” But then the scientists also explained that climate models predict a decline in Arctic ice, but are less certain about Antarctica, with some even suggesting an increase–making measurements of global sea ice not terribly relevant to the question of climate change. The Post ignored that part.

47 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:03:07pm

Now that the Global Warming crowd has shamelessley segued to Climate Change, you really can't disagree, climate changes.
Approximately 30,000 years ago about a third of the planet was an ice sheet. The ice has been retreating since then.
What they have never been able to establish is Climate Change & a tie to human activity. The planet goes through cycles whether we like it or not. Two other planets in our gallaxy are experiencing Global Warming & we are not there.

48 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:05:08pm

re: #47 opnion

Two other planets in our gallaxy are experiencing Global Warming & we are not there.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

There is a slight irony in people rushing to claim that the glacier changes on Mars are a sure sign of global warming, while not being swayed by the much more persuasive analogous phenomena here on Earth…
49 pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:05:53pm

re: #46 Charles

Yup... just finished reading it.

50 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:05:57pm

re: #47 opnion

Two other planets in our gallaxy solar system are experiencing Global Warming & we are not there.

I suspect there are more than two planets in the whole Milky Way undergoing global warming of some sort. ;-)

51 KingKenrod  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:06:09pm

re: #40 pianobuff

Here is a statement from the WaPo's ombudsman re George Will's article. I haven't read the UI pdf they cite below as a reference, so no telling what's in there....

Dear Mr. Johnson,

Thank you for your e-mail. The Post’s ombudsman typically deals with issues involving the news pages. But I understand the point you and many e-mailers are making, and for that reason I sought clarification from the editorial page editors. Basically, I was told that the Post has a multi-layer editing process and checks facts to the fullest extent possible. In this instance, George Will’s column was checked by people he personally employs, as well as two editors at the Washington Post Writers Group, which syndicates Will; our op-ed page editor; and two copy editors. The University of Illinois center that Will cited has now said it doesn’t agree with his conclusion, but earlier this year it put out a statement ([Link: arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu...] that was among several sources for this column and that notes in part that “Observed global sea ice area, defined here as a sum of N. Hemisphere and S. Hemisphere sea ice areas, is near or slightly lower than those observed in late 1979,”

Best wishes,
Andy Alexander
Washington Post Ombudsman

Exactly. If you are making a political argument against AGW, it's OK to let your opponent shoot themselves in the foot. But Will could have been more persuasive by simply providing that quote.

52 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:06:55pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Both Pamela and Robert are bemoaning the failure of an attempt in Canada to get the Quran banned as hate speech.....

Isn't that lovely. Now they've graduated to book banning.

And then they wonder why even CPAC wants nothing to do with them.

53 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:07:17pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

But there is no doubt in my mind that the creationists latching onto this makes me uncomfortable. They just want to damage science and will use anything to further that goal.

It makes me uncomfortable as well and I share your concern. As I've said before, creationists are blinded by an agenda and refuse to listen to rational arguments. I prefer to formulate my own opinions based on my research. I have to commend Charles for posting such great threads. This alone has caused me to think even more critically and dig deeper when researching any topic.

54 Salem  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:08:00pm

re: #50 Fat Jolly Penguin

I suspect there are more than two planets in the whole Milky Way undergoing global warming of some sort. ;-)

Yes, what will we do about man-made universal global warming? We have to act now!

55 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:08:17pm

re: #48 Basho

"Galaxy Warming!"

56 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:08:25pm

re: #54 Salem

Yes, what will we do about man-made universal global warming? We have to act now!

LOL

57 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:08:30pm

re: #53 Jetpilot1101

It makes me uncomfortable as well and I share your concern. As I've said before, creationists are blinded by an agenda and refuse to listen to rational arguments. I prefer to formulate my own opinions based on my research. I have to commend Charles for posting such great threads. This alone has caused me to think even more critically and dig deeper when researching any topic.

Note also that James Inhofe, one of the GOP's most vehement anti-AGW people, is also a young earth creationist tied to the Dominionist movement.

58 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:09:05pm

I've noticed that the Climate Change.Global Warming crowd, are the same environutters from the 70's going on about how we were going into another ice age and such, fretting and carrying on.

I quit listening to them then. And life has gone on fine. I reccomend the same treatment for these nutters now

59 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:10:04pm

re: #52 Charles

After all the bitching they did about how unfair, illegal and oppressive the Canadian Human Rights Council is I'm really surprised that they both discuss that article and bitch about the decision that didn't go their way instead of condemning the existence of the court. Amazing.

60 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:10:16pm

re: #53 Jetpilot1101

When I clear some stuff off my to-do list, AGW research will become more of a priority for me. I'm a skeptic simply because I'm still ignorant of a lot of facts. Regardless- I'm not happy with the issue getting politicized. It's more harmful than helpful.

61 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:10:23pm

re: #48 Basho

Yeah, if it's happening, it's happening. The issue is identifying the causal link. It seems to me that the movement behind the Global Change hysteria will accept nothing less than human guilt.

62 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:10:55pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

They're hypocrites, but we already knew this.

63 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:11:14pm

re: #50 Fat Jolly Penguin

I suspect there are more than two planets in the whole Milky Way undergoing global warming of some sort. ;-)

Thanks, you are right it is 'Solar System"

64 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:11:39pm

re: #57 Charles

Note also that James Inhofe, one of the GOP's most vehement anti-AGW people, is also a young earth creationist tied to the Dominionist movement.

I was unaware of this, thanks for pointing it out. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Dominionist Movement sounds like it could morph into a white supremacist organization in short order.

65 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:11:47pm

re: #61 opnion

Yeah, if it's happening, it's happening. The issue is identifying the causal link. It seems to me that the movement behind the Global Change hysteria will accept nothing less than human guilt.

And our money.

66 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:11:58pm

One fact isn't in dispute: Global warming pays a lot more than Climate Change

67 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:12:09pm

re: #61 opnion

Whatever, galaxy dude.

68 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:12:37pm

re: #36 Jetpilot1101

BTW- thank you for the compliment. :)

69 jcw46  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:12:55pm

re: #27 Racer X

Why not look at outside forces? Why not pursue data that shows global warming could indeed be driven by the sun? Or nature?

Its like they already know the answer they want, they just need to prove it. That's not science. That's politics.


I have always been keenly suspect of scientists (not Science) ever since I read the histories of many widely held "scientific facts" that were found to be false. Scientists, being human, many times have vested interest in one position or another to be found to be true; (grant money, fame, respect of ones peers). This applies to any and all disciplines. There is always the possibility of at least; "data manipulation" and at worst; outright manufacture of "artifacts" to prove a point that the "scientist" in question desires to be true. No matter how many scientists agree on a subject, it is not unwise to at least consider that other answers may exist but are not getting the exposure they deserve because of the politics of the situation. I'm not pointing a finger at any particular subject as it seems that over the years, all have had charlatans and frauds exposed within their ranks (many of them very prominent and well respected). It also doesn't mean that automatically every crackpot or crank that has a contradictory "solution" to a question deserves an equal degree of credibility as those who hold the majority opinion.

70 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:12:55pm

Dominionism:

Dominionism describes, in several distinct ways, a tendency among some conservative politically-active Christians, especially in the United States of America, to seek influence or control over secular civil government through political action—aiming either at a nation governed by Christians, or a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law. The use and application of this terminology is a matter of controversy.

71 esch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:13:24pm

re: #65 VegasRick

And our money.

Guilt and fear pay well for those who aren't capable of creating anything else. Which sadly is most liberals.

72 dentate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:13:25pm

re: #57 Charles

Note also that James Inhofe, one of the GOP's most vehement anti-AGW people, is also a young earth creationist tied to the Dominionist movement.

Oy.

73 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:13:29pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

BTW- thank you for the compliment. :)

Anytime. Your level headed posts here always make me think and more often then not, your wit makes me laugh.

74 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:13:29pm

re: #70 Charles

Freakin' sad bunch...

75 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:13:54pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

They sound like Fascists to me.

76 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:13:55pm

re: #73 Jetpilot1101

*blush*

77 WhiteRasta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:13:59pm

I have 3 feet of global warming fall on me in the last 36 hours.

78 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:01pm

re: #73 Jetpilot1101

Amen to that :D

79 Opilio  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:07pm

If George Will had spent 30 seconds looking at the Cryosphere Today web site, he could have written that on Jan 1, 2008 there was more than 1 million more square kilometers of sea ice than on Jan 1, 1980 -- which is true -- and avoided all this.

In any case, trying to make your case by extracting a selective two point comparison from a 30-year (daily?) trend line is stupid and disingenuous.

80 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:30pm

re: #75 MandyManners

They sound like Fascists to me.

You're not alone in thinking that. And robert's going to sue us all. lol

81 davinvalkri  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:38pm

re: #47 opnion

Now that the Global Warming crowd has shamelessley segued to Climate Change, you really can't disagree, climate changes.
Approximately 30,000 years ago about a third of the planet was an ice sheet. The ice has been retreating since then.
What they have never been able to establish is Climate Change & a tie to human activity. The planet goes through cycles whether we like it or not. Two other planets in our gallaxy are experiencing Global Warming & we are not there.

Which is why Gore and co. still have the power they have. But that's no excuse for Will and the Washington Post to act like the New York Times on the matter. It just hurts us.
Dammit, why are all our good causes getting their public faces co-opted by the absolute loonies. First it was Anti-communism, then it was anti-Islamism, now global warming skepticism? Agh, it's enough to make a man just want to say "screw it" and play Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri to the end of days.

82 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:14:42pm

re: #77 WhiteRasta

I have 3 feet of global warming fall on me in the last 36 hours.

It's because of the melting arctic ice

83 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:15:29pm

I never knew arctic sea ice fluctuates so much.

With so many fluctuations, what's the value of measuring it all?

84 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:15:54pm

re: #51 KingKenrod

Exactly. If you are making a political argument against AGW, it's OK to let your opponent shoot themselves in the foot. But Will could have been more persuasive by simply providing that quote.

Well here's how I can see where it gets confusing.... from Will's article.

"As global levels of sea ice declined last year, many experts said this was evidence of man-made global warming. Since September, however, the increase in sea ice has been the fastest change, either up or down, since 1979, when satellite record-keeping began. According to the University of Illinois' Arctic Climate Research Center, global sea ice levels now equal those of 1979. "

I've parsed this a few times trying to figure out how many inferences can be drawn. George should have provide citations for his statement "many experts said this was evidence of man-made global warming". This would have made for a much cleaner read/interpration. Without this, some readers could conclude that he is also attributing this point of view to UI. I'm guessing that if pressed, WaPo would say that they were using UI only as a source of data but not for the conclusions drawn from the data.

85 Claire  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:16:45pm

re: #14 Shiplord Kirel

I propose that our third party be called "The Science and Reason Party." It would devoted to time-honored and objectively proven principles of conservative thought, but free of superstition and media incited nonsense.

I was vacuuming this morning thinking that we need a third party- I named my party the Logic and Reason Party! Too cool-

86 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:16:54pm

More Dominionist goals:

In 2005, Clarkson enumerated the following characteristics shared by all forms of dominionism
1. Dominionists celebrate Christian nationalism, in that they believe that the United States once was, and should once again be, a Christian nation. In this way, they deny the Enlightenment roots of American democracy.
2. Dominionists promote religious supremacy, insofar as they generally do not respect the equality of other religions, or even other versions of Christianity.
3. Dominionists endorse theocratic visions, insofar as they believe that the Ten Commandments, or "biblical law," should be the foundation of American law, and that the U.S. Constitution should be seen as a vehicle for implementing Biblical principles.

I don't like using the word "nationalism" when it comes to matters of race, creed, theology etc. Seems like it could lead to supremacy or fascism mighty quick.

87 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:17:59pm

re: #85 Claire

I was vacuuming this morning thinking that we need a third party- I named my party the Logic and Reason Party! Too cool-

Must have been all the sucking that made you think we need a third party.

88 davinvalkri  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:18:17pm

re: #83 Shug

I never knew arctic sea ice fluctuates so much.

With so many fluctuations, what's the value of measuring it all?

I think the idea is that you want to find the trend line in all those fluctuations. Where all these scientists who support anthropogenic global warming fall off the map is--they find the trend line seems to have a slight downward slant, they superimpose that over an increase in industry emissions, and fall into "post hoc ergo prompter hoc" logic.

89 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:18:40pm

re: #58 Jewels (AKA Julian)

I've noticed that the Climate Change.Global Warming crowd, are the same environutters from the 70's going on about how we were going into another ice age and such, fretting and carrying on.

I quit listening to them then. And life has gone on fine. I reccomend the same treatment for these nutters now

Newsweek featured the New Ice Age on theircover 30 years ago.
Never mind, now it's Global Warming, or Climate Change Or a Martian Invasion & all our fault.

90 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:19:15pm

re: #86 Jetpilot1101

More Dominionist goals:

3. Dominionists endorse theocratic visions, insofar as they believe that the Ten Commandments, or "biblical law," should be the foundation of American law, and that the U.S. Constitution should be seen as a vehicle for implementing Biblical principles


How are they any different than the Saudis with their Sharia law?

They look the same to me

91 davinvalkri  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:19:33pm

re: #88 davinvalkri

Of course Will is still a big fat idiot for not reading the data properly and coming to an utterly false conclusion.

92 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:20:17pm

re: #89 opnion

Newsweek featured the New Ice Age on theircover 30 years ago.
Never mind, now it's Global Warming, or Climate Change Or a Martian Invasion & all our fault.

I blame Canada.
/

93 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:20:31pm

re: #86 Jetpilot1101

More Dominionist goals:

I don't like using the word "nationalism" when it comes to matters of race, creed, theology etc. Seems like it could lead to supremacy or fascism mighty quick.

Research "Christian Identity" if you really want the crap scared out of you.

94 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:21:26pm

re: #91 davinvalkri

Of course Will is still a big fat idiot for not reading the data properly and coming to an utterly false conclusion.

He's not a scientist. I read the data and I have tyrouble coming to conclusions.
He should have checked it out.

He's only slightly better than Dan rather for not checking out the throbbing memo. rather was worse but not by far

95 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:21:40pm

re: #90 Shug

Bingo and not something I want to live under and I'm a Christian.

The problem with Theocracies is the dude in charge always winds up thinking he's "Theo".

96 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:22:06pm

re: #90 Shug

How are they any different than the Saudis with their Sharia law?

They look the same to me

And yet some people get offended if you even mention that there are Christian Taliban out there. Well- there is!

97 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:22:33pm

re: #86 Jetpilot1101

More Dominionist goals:


I don't like using the word "nationalism" when it comes to matters of race, creed, theology etc. Seems like it could lead to supremacy or fascism mighty quick.

Sounds like Islam without the burkhas.

98 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:23:33pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

Research "Christian Identity" if you really want the crap scared out of you.

Weren't they behind the murder of Alan Berg, the Denver radio host? Or, am I confusing my fascists?

99 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:23:44pm
100 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:24:00pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

Research "Christian Identity" if you really want the crap scared out of you.

Christian Identity = vile racist swine; nothing Christian about them.

101 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:24:11pm

re: #96 Sharmuta

And yet some people get offended if you even mention that there are Christian Taliban out there. Well- there is!

That's the beauty and the Genius of the framers.

How could they have anticipated Radical Islamists hundreds of years in the future. The same constitution that protects us from living under sharia law in America is the same one that protects us from living under a Christian theocracy. You can't have one without opening the door for the other.

why some evangelicals can't see this is beyond me

102 Cathypop  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:24:19pm

Raeding an excelent book by Fred Singer and Dennis Avery called Unstoppable Global Warming. Bet the Goracle or any of his moronic folowers has ever read it.

103 KingKenrod  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:24:53pm

re: #90 Shug

How are they any different than the Saudis with their Sharia law?

They look the same to me

They do. But Western culture has no problem confronting Dominionists while giving Islamists a pass. And the Islamists have a nonnegotiable divine mandate to making violent threats and blowing things up.

104 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:25:08pm

re: #81 davinvalkri

Which is why Gore and co. still have the power they have. But that's no excuse for Will and the Washington Post to act like the New York Times on the matter. It just hurts us.
Dammit, why are all our good causes getting their public faces co-opted by the absolute loonies. First it was Anti-communism, then it was anti-Islamism, now global warming skepticism? Agh, it's enough to make a man just want to say "screw it" and play Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri to the end of days.

Good point. I remember a study in Sociology dealing with corner street gangs.
The assertion was that the least mentally stable often get the leadership position. Their conclusion was that these people are aggresive & very sure of themselves. I think that we see some of that in what you describe.

105 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:26:07pm

re: #27 Racer X

Here's the main problem I have with AGW. There are many scientists who look at the data that shows there is in fact global warming. Then they go about trying to prove it is in fact caused by man. Whenever anyone questions the link to man they go batshit insane.

Why not look at outside forces? Why not pursue data that shows global warming could indeed be driven by the sun? Or nature?

Its like they already know the answer they want, they just need to prove it. That's not science. That's politics.

Somehow this is news?

106 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:26:52pm

Here's an article on the influence of Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists on the US government's environmental policy: The Godly Must Be Crazy.

107 jcw46  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:27:03pm

re: #70 Charles

Dominionism:


Sheesh. Wasn't that kind of government tried already and found to be a little "repressive"? Let's see; France, England, the Germanic states, Italy, Spain, pre-revolutionary war American Colonies, the Phillipines, etc. (the list goes on).
Doesn't the lack of existence of those governments in today's world and their mostly monumental failure in the past give these folks a clue? I guess they look at Iran and say "we want that style of government!". Yeah, that's working really well for the people living there and the rest of the world. NOT!
Sometimes I wish I could renounce my faith. These people are soo ignorant, un-Christian and Un-Godly in my view. Personally I would like to see more articles exposing these folks along with the creationists. (who seem to be one and the same too many times).

108 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:28:29pm

re: #101 Shug

They are busy with revisionist history of the Founders to justify their "Christian Nation" meme. I have called a couple people out on this now, and I find it deeply offensive to re-write the history of these incredible men. I won't stand for it.

109 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:29:21pm

re: #67 Basho

Whatever, galaxy dude.

I don't follow you.

110 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:29:29pm

Christian-right views are swaying politicians and threatening the environment.

We are not talking about a handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. The 231 legislators (all but five of them Republicans) who received an average 80 percent approval rating or higher from the leading religious-right organizations make up more than 40 percent of the U.S. Congress. (The only Democrat to score 100 percent with the Christian Coalition was Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia, who earlier this year quoted from the Book of Amos on the Senate floor: "The days will come, sayeth the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land. Not a famine of bread or of thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord!") These politicians include some of the most powerful figures in the U.S. government, as well as key environmental decision makers: Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), Senate Republican Conference Chair Rick Santorum (R-Penn.), Senate Republican Policy Chair Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R-Mo.), U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, and quite possibly President Bush. (Earlier this month, a cover story by Ron Suskind in The New York Times Magazine described how Bush's faith-based governance has led to, among other things, a disastrous "crusade" in the Middle East and has laid the groundwork for "a battle between modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason and religion.")

And those politicians are just the powerful tip of the iceberg. A 2002 Time/CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book of Revelation are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think the Bible predicted the 9/11 attacks.

111 Salem  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:29:50pm

re: #42 Basho

You're not the only one weary of the word skeptic being debased:
[Link: www.randi.org...]

And, of course, that doesn't cut both ways...

112 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:29:59pm

re: #70 Charles

Dominionism:

Why isn't there a word for Socialists and Liberals for the very same thing?

113 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:30:47pm

re: #106 Charles

From the link:

Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future. They believe we are living in the End Time, when the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire. They may also believe, along with millions of other Christian fundamentalists, that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed -- even hastened -- as a sign of the coming Apocalypse.

Insanity! No thought whatsoever to the notion they might be wrong, and what it means to our grandchildren and beyond. Assholes.

114 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:31:29pm

re: #106 Charles

Here's an article on the influence of Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists on the US government's environmental policy: The Godly Must Be Crazy.

There are a lot of Christians who don't believe in the End Times stuff. They believe that once Christ returns, BOOM!, that's it. Judgment is final. No one lives on for seven years' tribulation.

115 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:32:13pm

re: #110 Charles

Christian-right views are swaying politicians and threatening the environment.

I'm sure that the author of that article is going to completely release the statistical study data used to come up with their percentages, the questions asked, and the actual responses.

/sarc

116 DisgustingOratory  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:32:17pm

Global Warming? That thing is still around?

117 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:32:21pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

From the link:


Insanity! No thought whatsoever to the notion they might be wrong, and what it means to our grandchildren and beyond. Assholes.

I cannot recall the scripture but, aren't we called upon to be good stewards of the Earth?

118 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:32:46pm

Shug-

You can go to yesterday's Jindal thread, and towards the end see the revisionism for yourself. It's a disgusting distortion of these fine men. The creationists are not just quote mining scientists any more- they're doing it to our Founders now too.

119 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:32:51pm

re: #114 MandyManners

There are a lot of Christians who don't believe in the End Times stuff. They believe that once Christ returns, BOOM!, that's it. Judgment is final. No one lives on for seven years' tribulation.

Is that the same as pre/post milennial? That's also an eschatological debate.

120 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:33:44pm

re: #106 Charles

Relatively few Christian activists would actually call themselves Dominionists but it is obvious from the linked articles that Dominionist thinking permeates the religious right and that influence is growing. Like Creationists, Dominionists know how to advance their agenda by stealth. This is not a coincidence since Creationism is an obvious tenet of the Dominionist position: Not all Creationists are Dominionists, but all Dominionists are Creationists.

121 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:33:49pm

re: #117 MandyManners

I cannot recall the scripture but, aren't we called upon to be good stewards of the Earth?

Why would any Christian need to be told by scripture not to shit where they live?

122 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:34:01pm

re: #117 MandyManners

I cannot recall the scripture but, aren't we called upon to be good stewards of the Earth?

[Link: www.religion-online.org...]
Try this.

123 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:34:02pm

re: #67 Basho

Whatever, galaxy dude.

Oh & I corrected myself & said Solar System, dude.

124 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:34:04pm

re: #114 MandyManners

There are a lot of Christians who don't believe in the End Times stuff. They believe that once Christ returns, BOOM!, that's it. Judgment is final. No one lives on for seven years' tribulation.

There's a lot of Christians who believe that they will be bodily taken into heaven.

125 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:34:31pm

re: #112 Hengineer

Why isn't there a word for Socialists and Liberals for the very same thing?

There is: It's called "communism"

126 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:35:02pm

re: #117 MandyManners

I cannot recall the scripture but, aren't we called upon to be good stewards of the Earth?

Literally in Genesis, when God gives Adam dominion over the animals of the earth, I'm assuming that it included plants and the earth itself.

127 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:35:07pm

re: #118 Sharmuta

Shug-

You can go to yesterday's Jindal thread, and towards the end see the revisionism for yourself. It's a disgusting distortion of these fine men. The creationists are not just quote mining scientists any more- they're doing it to our Founders now too.

Have you ever asked anyone how they can reconcile the beliefs of our founding fathers with their status in FreeMasonry? You get some interesting responses.

128 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:35:13pm

re: #125 Shiplord Kirel

There is: It's called "communism"

AKA "Fuckheads".

129 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:35:34pm

In Today's America where would Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be? Not in Government probably.

but where would they fit in?

On the right we have a huge evangelical influence, and people who want to stick their nose in my bedroom and who want my tax dollars to go to divinity students.

On the left we have the perverts, the America haters, the dirty BDS crowd who want to give more rights to terrorists and illegal aliens than to honest hard-working Americans.


Both groups are dangerous in their own ways.
So we choose the lesser ot two evils.

I think the framers would not be welcome in Washington DC in 2009

130 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:36:32pm

re: #125 Shiplord Kirel

There is: It's called "communism"

a point

131 Neo_  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:36:37pm
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.


Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite.

It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

132 lostlakehiker  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:36:39pm

re: #6 UncleRancher

All these people talk about global warming like they were some kind of expert. Every one of them believes CO2 is some kind of greenhouse gas as if water vapor has nothing to do with the equilibrium point and solar cycles have no effect.

If you eliminate CO2 from the atmosphere then we'll all be in serious trouble.

That's right, we believe CO2 is some kind of greenhouse gas. That's because it is. Not to say that water vapor isn't. Water vapor is a more important contributor to the greenhouse effect than CO2. If not for this greenhouse effect, the earth would be frozen stiff. Not good. However, where is it written that there's no such thing as too much of a good thing?

A century ago, the climate was tolerable. Not bad at all, actually. We had our water vapor to do the bulk lifting, and our CO2 at 280 some parts per million to fine tune things. Now, we're to 380 or so, and it's getting a bit stuffy in here. But there's no way to open a window in the atmosphere and let some of the heat shine off into space.

We can cope. We'll have to. But do we really want a lot more CO2 up there? 450? 550? 800? 1300? Is there any point at which this becomes a problem? Every gas has its natural absorption frequencies. CO2 absorbs in the IR spectrum, overlapping the frequencies at which hot dirt radiates to the open sky. Granting that cloud cover, water vapor and so on are important, they're important in a different way from how CO2 is important. WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING AT ALL about the water vapor level or the cloud cover. We can put the brakes on the rate at which CO2 content of the atmosphere increases. By our decisions, we can have a world in which CO2 levels peak at 500 or 600 ppm, instead of a lot higher. It would be somewhat expensive, maybe 2% of world GDP for decades. [That's just a very rough ballpark estimate, and on the high side, which from my perspective is the conservative way to estimate it.] We just have to figure out whether it's worth it. What do we get, assuming global warming is real?

We get better crop yields, we save on air conditioning, we lose on home heating, we save on water, we lose on snow plowing, we save on firefighting. Adding up all the advantages and disadvantages, and computing the cost of abating CO2 emissions, is terribly complex. Assessing whether there really is a problem is nontrivial.

What is simple is to see that there could well be a problem. It's not hooey, to raise the point. It's physics.

133 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:36:39pm

re: #128 VegasRick

AKA "Fuckheads".

To expand in my earlier post: Not all fuckheads are communists but all communists are fuckheads.

134 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:37:13pm

re: #101 Shug

That's the beauty and the Genius of the framers.

How could they have anticipated Radical Islamists hundreds of years in the future. The same constitution that protects us from living under sharia law in America is the same one that protects us from living under a Christian theocracy. You can't have one without opening the door for the other.

why some evangelicals can't see this is beyond me

Why some liberals who would attack Christian fundamentalists but give Islamic Fundamentalists a pass see this is beyond me.

135 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:37:37pm

the earth has always warmed and cooled.
the left has latched onto this phenomenon and is seeking to use it to gain power. and control and money.
i don't like the way it is presented as a dire situation, caused by humans.
it if was such an emergency why aren't those pushing this agenda cutting back on their energy use. and the pollution they generate.
look at all the private jets that flew in for O's inauguration. and the filth left behind.
look at the ring leader, algore's fuel consumption. his electric bill is 3000 dollars a month.
and the squawking hollywoofers, getting us told. as they exempt themselves from any behavior that could address the problem.
that photo of O in his shirt sleeves rolled up and the thermostat at 80 degrees,
after lecturing us to keep the heat low, so the rest of the world would be ok w/ us, is disgusting.
if the earth is burning up, why is this the example we see from those who are pushing this belief.
they sure don't seem to believe it.

136 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:37:43pm

re: #129 Shug

They would be shit on! And conversely, they would be disgusted by what has become of American politics.

137 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:37:43pm

re: #133 Shiplord Kirel

To expand in my earlier post: Not all fuckheads are communists but all communists are fuckheads.

I love it! I give my only ding to you!

138 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:37:55pm

re: #131 Neo_

And what does that have to do with the topic?

139 dentate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:37:57pm

Of course there is climate change. Always has been, always will be, and who cares if it is man, volcanoes, or sun spots? This assumption that the earth has some "normal" state that we are perturbing is probably where this appeals to young earth creationists. In fact there is no such state. Look at what the earth's coastlines have done in just the last 30,000 years, and yet humans have survived and adapted. It is utter hubris to think we can stop these processes. Better to spend time and money deciding how best to deal with these inevitable changes, given that there are so many of us humans on the planet now that getting up and migrating is not the option it once was. We need contingency plans for future climate change scenarios. If every human were to reduce his "carbon footprint" to zero, the climate would still change.

140 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:38:01pm

What scriptural justification do they have to trash the Earth?!

141 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:38:06pm

re: #106 Charles

Here's an article on the influence of Dominionists and Christian Reconstructionists on the US government's environmental policy: The Godly Must Be Crazy.

Charles, good stewardship of our planet is something that every Christian should take seriously, it's biblical. To believe in the end times is one thing, to willfully disregard the planet is another entirely. Apparently, these folks don't read their Bibles. It breaks my heart that the Christian faith has been hijacked by people who obviously care nothing for Christ's teachings but instead are bent on an agenda to gain power. What these people are doing is an affront to God and an insult to all of us Christians who are trying our best to serve our fellow man and live as Christ taught. It damages our witness and tarnishes the message of Christ.

142 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:38:39pm

BBIAB

143 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:39:23pm

re: #132 lostlakehiker

That's right, we believe CO2 is some kind of greenhouse gas. That's because it is. Not to say that water vapor isn't. Water vapor is a more important contributor to the greenhouse effect than CO2. If not for this greenhouse effect, the earth would be frozen stiff. Not good. However, where is it written that there's no such thing as too much of a good thing?

A century ago, the climate was tolerable. Not bad at all, actually. We had our water vapor to do the bulk lifting, and our CO2 at 280 some parts per million to fine tune things. Now, we're to 380 or so, and it's getting a bit stuffy in here. But there's no way to open a window in the atmosphere and let some of the heat shine off into space.

We can cope. We'll have to. But do we really want a lot more CO2 up there? 450? 550? 800? 1300? Is there any point at which this becomes a problem? Every gas has its natural absorption frequencies. CO2 absorbs in the IR spectrum, overlapping the frequencies at which hot dirt radiates to the open sky. Granting that cloud cover, water vapor and so on are important, they're important in a different way from how CO2 is important. WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING AT ALL about the water vapor level or the cloud cover. We can put the brakes on the rate at which CO2 content of the atmosphere increases. By our decisions, we can have a world in which CO2 levels peak at 500 or 600 ppm, instead of a lot higher. It would be somewhat expensive, maybe 2% of world GDP for decades. [That's just a very rough ballpark estimate, and on the high side, which from my perspective is the conservative way to estimate it.] We just have to figure out whether it's worth it. What do we get, assuming global warming is real?

We get better crop yields, we save on air conditioning, we lose on home heating, we save on water, we lose on snow plowing, we save on firefighting. Adding up all the advantages and disadvantages, and computing the cost of abating CO2 emissions, is terribly complex. Assessing whether there really is a problem is nontrivial.

What is simple is to see that there could well be a problem. It's not hooey, to raise the point. It's physics.

But at the same time, it would increase the possibility of farmland in Greenland, Northern Europe and the vast expanses of Russia that would otherwise be too cold and inhospitable to grow anything for food: there's a flip side to the coin.

144 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:39:55pm

re: #134 Hengineer

Why some liberals who would attack Christian fundamentalists but give Islamic Fundamentalists a pass see this is beyond me.

They have a death wish. They hate The Christian Religion more than they love America because the Islamists they pretend to love so much would kill them tomorrow if given the chance.

145 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:40:27pm

re: #139 dentate

Of course there is climate change. Always has been, always will be, and who cares if it is man, volcanoes, or sun spots? This assumption that the earth has some "normal" state that we are perturbing is probably where this appeals to young earth creationists. In fact there is no such state. Look at what the earth's coastlines have done in just the last 30,000 years, and yet humans have survived and adapted. It is utter hubris to think we can stop these processes. Better to spend time and money deciding how best to deal with these inevitable changes, given that there are so many of us humans on the planet now that getting up and migrating is not the option it once was. We need contingency plans for future climate change scenarios. If every human were to reduce his "carbon footprint" to zero, the climate would still change.

To Quote George Carlin:

"Save the planet.....SAVE THE PLANET? Are these people insane?
The planet is fine! It's the PEOPLE that are fucked!"

146 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:41:10pm

re: #143 Hengineer

But at the same time, it would increase the possibility of farmland in Greenland, Northern Europe and the vast expanses of Russia that would otherwise be too cold and inhospitable to grow anything for food: there's a flip side to the coin.

Not to mention that slightly higher CO2 in the air would help out plants anyway.

147 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:41:20pm

re: #141 Jetpilot1101

Charles, good stewardship of our planet is something that every Christian should take seriously, it's biblical. To believe in the end times is one thing, to willfully disregard the planet is another entirely. Apparently, these folks don't read their Bibles. It breaks my heart that the Christian faith has been hijacked by people who obviously care nothing for Christ's teachings but instead are bent on an agenda to gain power. What these people are doing is an affront to God and an insult to all of us Christians who are trying our best to serve our fellow man and live as Christ taught. It damages our witness and tarnishes the message of Christ.

Thank you for that.

148 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:42:23pm

re: #141 Jetpilot1101

Charles, good stewardship of our planet is something that every Christian should take seriously, it's biblical. To believe in the end times is one thing, to willfully disregard the planet is another entirely. Apparently, these folks don't read their Bibles. It breaks my heart that the Christian faith has been hijacked by people who obviously care nothing for Christ's teachings but instead are bent on an agenda to gain power. What these people are doing is an affront to God and an insult to all of us Christians who are trying our best to serve our fellow man and live as Christ taught. It damages our witness and tarnishes the message of Christ.

Excelent!

149 VegasRick  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:42:29pm

bbl

150 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #58 Jewels (AKA Julian)

I've noticed that the Climate Change.Global Warming crowd, are the same environutters from the 70's going on about how we were going into another ice age and such, fretting and carrying on.

I quit listening to them then. And life has gone on fine. I reccomend the same treatment for these nutters now

The problem is is that their nuttering about is causing gov'mt to raise taxes and raise regulations to the point that it DOES affect us all. California is looking to a budget crisis at the same time its trying to enact legislation for environmental regulation that will slow down California's economy further.

It's self-destructive!

151 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:43:28pm
152 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:43:39pm

[Link: www.forbes.com...]

When you red this, you will just throw up.

BTW the Durban II conference starts on April 20th! Hitler's birthday will be celebrated in style this year.

153 Tarheel  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:44:14pm

I wonder if Charles and the rest of us in the lizardoid masses have given any time to the Web Site, Watts Up With That. The link shows that CO2 apparently doesn't drive glacial cycles.

A very good site about this issue of climate change.

154 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:44:22pm
155 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:44:31pm

re: #141 Jetpilot1101

Upding from an atheist.

156 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:44:53pm

Here we go again.

157 USA  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:45:18pm
158 dentate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:45:30pm

Cleanup on 151.

159 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:45:49pm

re: #151 Acesover8ts

If you're going to deliver a goodbye speech (as I assume that was), you might at least want to make it intelligible.

160 ThinkRight  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:09pm

re: #156 Charles

Here we go again.


?
What?

161 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:23pm

re: #158 dentate

Cleanup on 151.

No kidding! I think I lost IQ points trying to read that.

162 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:25pm

re: #160 ThinkRight

?
What?

Still in my #154

163 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:31pm

re: #151 Acesover8ts

Uh... huh?

164 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:42pm

re: #151 Acesover8ts

Am I being too abrupt to say "fuck off?" even on my best drinking days I never sounded this screwed up.

165 Salem  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:51pm

re: #139 dentate

If every human were to reduce his "carbon footprint" to zero, the climate would still change.

Not in the fool's paradise of AGW.

166 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:53pm

re: #151 Acesover8ts

Does google translate have a "gibberish -->English" feature?

Dude, I have no idea what you just said.

167 ThinkRight  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:46:58pm

re: #160 ThinkRight

?
What?


I missed it
Too many threads opened at once
/sorry

168 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:47:01pm

re: #162 Hengineer

Still in my #154

Probably not for long. ;-)

169 ThinkRight  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:47:39pm

re: #162 Hengineer

Still in my #154


Thanks

170 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:47:43pm

re: #168 CynicalConservative

Probably not for long. ;-)

That's what surprising me, I thought he deleted all quotes too...

its lasted a bit longer than I thought, too

171 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:48:02pm

re: #140 MandyManners

What scriptural justification do they have to trash the Earth?!

None whatsoever. Apparently, none of them have read the following verse.

Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
1 Corinthians 4:2

172 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:48:30pm

Was registration different in 2004? ( easier?)

because it seems like lately all of the wackos registered in 2004 and then have made very few posts since then and they show up out of the blue.

173 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:48:33pm

Tell me what you think of this. The Chicago Tribune is reporting an incident that took place in the Pashtun Southern area of Afghanistan on 11/4/08.
A Pentagon researcher, Paula Lloyd with two interpreters & body guards went to a village market to find out what the villagers needed.
A man in the crowd suddenly doused her with gasoline & set her on fire.
Don Ayala,one of her guards caght the attacker & put him on the ground.
An Interpreter ran over to Ayala hysterically screaming that Lloyd was burning to death. Ayala shot the prisoner in the head & rendered assistance to Lloyd.
He has been charged with murder. He pleaded guilty to 2nd degree murder & could be sentenced to 15 years.

174 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:48:46pm

re: #162 Hengineer

sorry 'bout the downding. Fixed it. Obviously meant for the #151.

175 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:48:48pm

re: #170 Hengineer

That's what surprising me, I thought he deleted all quotes too...

its lasted a bit longer than I thought, too

I'm sure the big lizard will get it. It's a wonder to me how he keeps up with it all sometimes.

176 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:49:11pm

re: #151 Acesover8ts

What kind of ramblings was that about?

177 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:49:27pm

Speaking of being good stewards of the Earth, the cub scouts have monthly themes, which are published in advance. May is "Leave Nothing but Footprints." (The theme here is to teach the boys when they go out in nature, they should leave nothing but footprints, not that their parents should be living in huts and wearing leaves sewn together with hemp while they all eat nuts and berries.)

Looks like a fun month. Nothing like getting boys together with the outdoors.

178 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:49:56pm

re: #172 Shug

Was registration different in 2004? ( easier?)

because it seems like lately all of the wackos registered in 2004 and then have made very few posts since then and they show up out of the blue.

I think registration was instituted in 2004 and a lot of previous posters were grandfathered in. Long time to lurk regardless.

179 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:50:06pm

re: #174 Pianobuff

sorry 'bout the downding. Fixed it. Obviously meant for the #151.

Q.E.D.

180 DEZes  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:50:07pm

re: #154 Hengineer

What?

I had to quit reading that for 2 reasons, it was an obtuse incoherent ramble, and it went poof. ;)

181 rightymouse  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:50:10pm

re: #141 Jetpilot1101

A gazillion updings for that.

182 kahall  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:51:00pm

re: #156 Charles

I'm not really sure why you deleted that. I still trying to figure out what language it was typed in. :-)

183 jcw46  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:51:43pm

re: #117 MandyManners

I cannot recall the scripture but, aren't we called upon to be good stewards of the Earth?

That's Jesus. the parable of the good steward Luke 12:42 but not of earth (imo). They were to be stewards of the faith in salvation and the church. Dominionists do not keep faith with the church by their attempt at usurpation of government.
(i've always been suspicious of Paul and his "road to damascus" moment because so much of what the church is now was formed/formulated by Paul and bears little resemblance to what Jesus taught although his teachings are with us they are manipulated to mean what anyone wants them to mean){that could include me also!}.
A lot of the apocryphal stuff is supposed to be John the evangelist and was discovered later and became incorporated in the overall future of the faithful. although it is very, very open to interpretation (think Nostradamus' quantrains).

184 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:52:28pm

re: #182 kahall

I'm not really sure why you deleted that. I still trying to figure out what language it was typed in. :-)

If I parsed the rant correctly, the end was a typical "I don't want to be here anymore, goodbye". Always deleted and blocked/banned. It was a painful read nonetheless.

185 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:52:44pm

re: #139 dentate

That's an upding.

186 ThinkRight  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:52:52pm

re: #175 CynicalConservative

I'm sure the big lizard will get it. It's a wonder to me how he keeps up with it all sometimes.


He must be like all our mothers
Eyes in the back of his head
And knows when we have done something wrong before we get caught
And I will Quote

I brought you in to this World and I will take you out


/my mother

187 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:53:19pm

re: #186 ThinkRight

/my mother

/my mother too!

188 Salem  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:53:47pm

re: #83 Shug

I never knew arctic sea ice fluctuates so much.

With so many fluctuations, what's the value of measuring it all?

Exactly. It's like some kind of mad compulsion. Computer models have replaced reality.

189 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:53:49pm

re: #186 ThinkRight

He must be like all our mothers
Eyes in the back of his head
And knows when we have done something wrong before we get caught
And I will Quote

I brought you in to this World and I will take you out


/my mother

So true.

190 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:54:22pm

regardless of all the arguments, science and pseudo-science, these facts remain:
You can't build windmills without oil.
You can't build solar panels without oil.
You can't grow an economy without oil.

There is an evil plan afoot Watson...............

191 ThinkRight  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:54:26pm

re: #187 Hengineer

/my mother too!


And we turned out alright
The libs just will never see the light

192 DEZes  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:54:39pm

re: #141 Jetpilot1101
Damn fine post, have an upding.

193 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:54:51pm

re: #184 CynicalConservative

If I parsed the rant correctly, the end was a typical "I don't want to be here anymore, goodbye". Always deleted and blocked/banned. It was a painful read nonetheless.

Like the drunk that has to vomit in the bar instead of the parking lot.

194 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:55:10pm

re: #188 Salem

Exactly. It's like some kind of mad compulsion. Hypothetical Projected Computer models have replaced reality.

fixed.

195 hopperandadropper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:55:17pm

The stuff about Inhofe is pretty disturbing, and certainly damages his credibility in general. Too bad, because I had thought he was some kind of reasonable voice on the AGW stuff.

However, I'm not ready to destroy the global economy in the name of "fighting climate change" just yet.

196 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:56:17pm

re: #79 Opilio

If George Will had spent 30 seconds looking at the Cryosphere Today web site, he could have written that on Jan 1, 2008 there was more than 1 million more square kilometers of sea ice than on Jan 1, 1980 -- which is true -- and avoided all this.

In any case, trying to make your case by extracting a selective two point comparison from a 30-year (daily?) trend line is stupid and disingenuous.

Bingo!

197 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:56:26pm

re: #195 hopperandadropper

The stuff about Inhofe is pretty disturbing, and certainly damages his credibility in general. Too bad, because I had thought he was some kind of reasonable voice on the AGW stuff.

However, I'm not ready to destroy the global economy in the name of "fighting climate change" just yet.

Why can't they just be honest and say that we want a cleaner place to live for us and our children? I'll pitch in and do my part for that!

198 kahall  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:56:46pm

re: #184 CynicalConservative

If I parsed the rant correctly, the end was a typical "I don't want to be here anymore, goodbye". Always deleted and blocked/banned. It was a painful read nonetheless.


Roger that.

I guess I will drop my goodbyes on the next AGW thread. I don't want to believe therefore I must leave LGF.
/S

See it makes sense.

199 kahall  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:58:53pm

Crap, this is an AGW thread. I guess I'm a liar. And confused about what thread I'm in.

200 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:59:30pm

re: #79 Opilio

If George Will had spent 30 seconds looking at the Cryosphere Today web site, he could have written that on Jan 1, 2008 there was more than 1 million more square kilometers of sea ice than on Jan 1, 1980 -- which is true -- and avoided all this.

In any case, trying to make your case by extracting a selective two point comparison from a 30-year (daily?) trend line is stupid and disingenuous.

Good point.

201 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 1:59:43pm

re: #184 CynicalConservative

If I parsed the rant correctly, the end was a typical "I don't want to be here anymore, goodbye". Always deleted and blocked/banned. It was a painful read nonetheless.

The admin of another forum board I post at frequently (and also a good friend of mine) has the exact same problem. He keeps having people who ask him to ban them because they don't want to come back anymore.

Well then just stop logging back into the board! You just have to question the IQ of some of these people.

202 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:01:05pm

re: #199 kahall

Crap, this is an AGW thread. I guess I'm a liar. And confused about what thread I'm in.

Eh, we won't hold it against you for long. ;-)

203 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:01:41pm

re: #198 kahall

Buh-bye

204 kahall  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:02:32pm

re: #203 Killgore Trout

What?

205 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:03:27pm

re: #204 kahall

I thought you were leaving.

206 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:04:25pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

I thought you were leaving.

you missed the sarc tag

207 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:04:25pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

I thought you were leaving.

I hate these long goodbyes

208 kahall  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:04:31pm

No, it was sarc. I don't throw a fit every time CJ posts something that makes me question my beliefs. I look into it more. Not leaving.

209 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:04:45pm

re: #206 Thanos

Ah, my bad.

210 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:04:52pm

re: #201 Hengineer

The admin of another forum board I post at frequently (and also a good friend of mine) has the exact same problem. He keeps having people who ask him to ban them because they don't want to come back anymore.

Well then just stop logging back into the board! You just have to question the IQ of some of these people.

Definitely makes me scratch my head, quite a bit of circular logic or maybe self control problems. I'm sure part of it (due to constant repetition) is trying to leave with some memorable rant that they hope will stay around long after they're gone to prove their point or discredit the site. Good for a chuckle here if you can read some of the posts before they are deleted. Charles is damn good at cleaning up the trash like that.

211 ThinkRight  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:05:12pm

re: #205 Killgore Trout

I thought you were leaving.


Are you pushing people out ?
Thread hog
/

212 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:05:33pm

Is there a global down-ding feature here? Looks like someone found it.

213 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:06:09pm

re: #212 Pianobuff

Is there a global down-ding feature here? Looks like someone found it.

Someone running around random down-dinging? Names?

214 kahall  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:06:35pm

Whew!

215 Pianobuff  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:06:42pm

re: #213 CynicalConservative

'Nother thread. Perpetua?

216 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:06:48pm

re: #204 kahall

What?

You got Walter's parrot? Maisey, is that you?

217 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:06:58pm

re: #213 CynicalConservative

Perpetua
Watch the LGF spy

218 Proximate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:07:15pm

If the NSIDC's data is flawless, how come they're positively diarrheal when it comes to publishing crap?

Errors in publicly presented data

It certainly looks like Zimmer used some of that bad data in his article. The article above isn't a retraction, it's a boast that no matter how much garbage is in the data, what they publish is pure and clean.

Does anyone know the recipe for crap ice cream? 90% golden, delicious vanilla and 10% excrement. The whole thing will taste like crap, guaranteed. My point is that a little bit of bad data makes a result unreliable.

Please remember Ike's 2nd warning, after the military-industrial one:

The scientific-technological elite

219 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:07:47pm

re: #215 Pianobuff

'Nother thread. Perpetua?

Ahhh. There are some that seem to ding and nothing else. Charles was talking about blocking things like that; dingers with no comments.

220 kahall  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:07:59pm

re: #216 CynicalConservative

You got Walter's parrot? Maisey, is that you?

Seriously, I do not know what you mean.

221 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:08:21pm

re: #217 Killgore Trout

Perpetua
Watch the LGF spy

Thanks. I always forget about that feature.

222 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:08:30pm

Yeah, I watched the spy for a second. Looks like somebody is holding a grudge on somebody else.

223 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:09:12pm

re: #219 CynicalConservative

Ahhh. There are some that seem to ding and nothing else. Charles was talking about blocking things like that; dingers with no comments.



Just downdingers, right? I have no problem with someone telling me I'm witty and smart.

224 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:09:30pm

re: #219 CynicalConservative

Ahhh. There are some that seem to ding and nothing else. Charles was talking about blocking things like that; dingers with no comments.

If a person is a downdinger and a non commenter how would you know when they get blocked?

Sounds like If a tree falls in the forrest and nobody can hear it, does it still make noise?

225 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:09:37pm

LGF Spy is the second best innovation at LGF ever- after the "new comments" button.

226 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:09:55pm

re: #223 EmmmieG

Just downdingers, right? I have no problem with someone telling me I'm witty and smart.

I believe so. You witty and smart guy. (?)

227 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:10:22pm

re: #226 CynicalConservative

I believe so. You witty and smart guy. (?)

Guy?

228 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:10:37pm

re: #220 kahall

Seriously, I do not know what you mean.

Don't sweat it, just a reference to another LGF'er with a loud bird that has a tendency to say WHAT? a lot.

229 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:11:06pm

re: #224 Shug

If a person is a downdinger and a non commenter how would you know when they get blocked?

Sounds like If a tree falls in the forrest and nobody can hear it, does it still make noise?

The Big Lizard knows.

230 dentate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:11:40pm

It's a very basic lack of understanding of the fundamentals of science and the scientific method--construction of theoretical models, development of hypotheses based on those models, hypothesis testing, and the acceptance, rejection, or modification of the model based on the results--that let creationism, as well as wild assumptions on global climate changes and their root causes, get in the door under the label of "science," which they are not. Unfortunately, not all scientists get this either, and like anyone else, they start with preconceptions and desired outcomes, and can sometimes allow their results to be used and interpreted to support non-scientific agendas.

Not sure that anything can be done except for reasonable people to be vigilant and to speak up. That is what peer review is supposed to do in the scientific community. Fact checking in popular publications is not quite the same thing.

231 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:11:56pm

re: #227 EmmmieG

Guy?

Hence the (?). One never knows on the internet.

232 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:13:10pm

re: #220 kahall

Seriously, I do not know what you mean.

What!

233 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:13:38pm

re: #229 CynicalConservative

The Big Lizard knows.


maybe Charles needs to install sound effects.

When a user gets blocked, there can be a sound like a mosquito hitting a bug zapper or something similar

234 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:13:40pm

Hey Walter! Was wondering if you were around.

235 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:13:41pm

I'm going to say this again, for perhaps the umpteenth time because I get embarrassed for some lizards. Many make sweeping general statements against AGW, and they sound like idiots because of it.

It's undeniable that greenhouse gas reflects infrared radiation, it's undeniable that greehouse gas is somewhat translucent to solar radiation. We add to greenhouse gases, that's undeniable. Because the earth radiates back in the infrared band, we contribute some to earth's warming when we increase the amount of greenhouse gas in the air, whether it's in the form of CO2 or water vapor or methane. That's undeniable.

Now if you want to argue degrees, the timeline, or the computer modeling, or against wrecking economies to fight something we don't really know the extent or degree of that's fine, but when you say there's no such thing you sound like an idiot.

If you're offended, try not to take it personal.

236 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:15:13pm

re: #234 CynicalConservative

Hey Walter! Was wondering if you were around.

What!

237 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:15:54pm

Now for your daily does of stupid....
Obama performance body art

(contains nudity)

238 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:16:19pm

re: #157 USA

Sweden cowers, again

this is so bad.
sweden is now held captive by their moslems.
what are the swedish people thinking.
how long until they are completely ruled by the islamists.
do they think these barbarians will stop at protesting sporting events.
they won't stop until they totally dominate and subjugate the whole country.
wake up sweden. fight back, while you can.

239 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:18:38pm

Why am I reminded of the words of Elwood Blues:

"I never lied. I kind of bullshitted you."

240 dentate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:19:51pm

re: #235 Thanos


Now if you want to argue degrees, the timeline, or the computer modeling, or against wrecking economies to fight something we don't really know the extent or degree of that's fine, but when you say there's no such thing you sound like an idiot.

I still find the whole argument to be about the wrong thing. Sure, we contribute something to climate change, and who knows how much? It's an interesting problem. But we are not and never have been the only agent of such change, and such change has always and will always occur. Huge changes have happened just in our brief tenure on this planet. Spending all this time and energy trying to stop the human contribution makes little sense when changes are going to happen anyway. Long term planning to deal with the effects of inevitable change make more sense. Now, if the argument is that we should keep the environment clean because we have made an ethical decision that cleanliness is next to godliness, I have no problem with that!

241 sphincter  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:20:41pm

re: #235 Thanos

Ok, in the meantime, I'm freezing my tail off.

242 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:20:43pm

re: #235 Thanos

Spot on. Global Warming or Climate Change is real. The extent to which humans cause it is debatable but again, we clearly have some role. As you suggest, the debate should be about the validity of our reaction to GW/CC.

243 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:21:00pm

so if every time you are threatened with 10k pissed off demonstrators when they don't like something (which is almost everything), what does govt do?...brawl the rioters every few months?....how does this problem get resolved?

244 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:21:51pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

What!

Maisey, give Walter the keyboard back.

245 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:22:55pm

re: #240 dentate

I still find the whole argument to be about the wrong thing. Sure, we contribute something to climate change, and who knows how much? It's an interesting problem. But we are not and never have been the only agent of such change, and such change has always and will always occur. Huge changes have happened just in our brief tenure on this planet. Spending all this time and energy trying to stop the human contribution makes little sense when changes are going to happen anyway. Long term planning to deal with the effects of inevitable change make more sense. Now, if the argument is that we should keep the environment clean because we have made an ethical decision that cleanliness is next to godliness, I have no problem with that!

I have no problem with either side of the argument, the fact that we will increase the population by half again within forty years and that third world countries are growing in output certainly make investigating AGW worthy. I would like to see more contrary studies funded as well however.

246 sphincter  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:23:29pm

I'm not real comfortable with how the theme needs to be changed from Global Warming to Climate Change. Everytime they have one of these Global Warming Seminars, it seems outrageously cold weather and winter storms occurr.

They need to schedule those meetings in the spring or fall.

just saying.

247 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:24:14pm

re: #235 Thanos

I think you can distill it even further.

Is the climate changing? Yes, it's changing just like it always has.
Are we humans doing anything to make it worse? The jury is still out on that one. So before we go wrecking the economies of the developed world--let's get a little more data.

BTW--I am a strong believer in weaning the west off the oil teat. As with steam engines, I think that we have hit the limit of the practical capacity of IC engines and it is time for the next stage in engineering evolution.

248 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:25:25pm

re: #246 sphincter

Everytime they have one of these Global Warming Seminars, it seems outrageously cold weather and winter storms occur.

Damn, that Karl Rove is amazing, ain't he.

249 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:26:19pm

This is my interim solution that should ween us off fossil fuels; the Pebble Bed Nuclear Reactor.

250 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:26:40pm
251 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:28:35pm

The next glacial age is coming whether we add greenhouse gas or not.

The question is with regards to the timing. Will we have any affect , or not?

none of us will be alive to find out

252 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:28:44pm

The Science of Cute

Science!
Cuteness!

253 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:30:34pm

re: #247 calcajun

I think you can distill it even further.

Is the climate changing? Yes, it's changing just like it always has.
Are we humans doing anything to make it worse? The jury is still out on that one. So before we go wrecking the economies of the developed world--let's get a little more data.

BTW--I am a strong believer in weaning the west off the oil teat. As with steam engines, I think that we have hit the limit of the practical capacity of IC engines and it is time for the next stage in engineering evolution.

Yep, it's pretty elementary physics, and demonstrable. Without the greenhouse effect the oceans would be frozen to an amazing depth. The question remaining is: Is our pollution staving off the next ice age, or is our pollution tipping the current interglacial period into a hothouse planet phase?

254 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:32:30pm

re: #251 Shug

The next glacial age is coming whether we add greenhouse gas or not.

The question is with regards to the timing. Will we have any affect , or not?

none of us will be alive to find out

Indeed.

global warming isn't always a bad thing.
btw - where is all the calamitous coastal flooding that the global warming alarmists keep telling us is inevitable?

255 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:32:40pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout

Here's a good word: neoteny, the retention of juvenile features in the adult animal.

256 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:32:43pm

Patton is on AMC tonight. Check your local listings for the time.

257 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:32:53pm

re: #253 Thanos

Yep, it's pretty elementary physics, and demonstrable. Without the greenhouse effect the oceans would be frozen to an amazing depth. The question remaining is: Is our pollution staving off the next ice age, or is our pollution tipping the current interglacial period into a hothouse planet phase?

Whoops, forgot "Or is our pollution negligible enough not to matter either way?"

258 FrogMarch  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:33:20pm

ot - went to see Clint Eastwood's Gran Torino. All I can say is - genius.

259 Salem  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:33:38pm

re: #245 Thanos

I have no problem with either side of the argument, the fact that we will increase the population by half again within forty years and that third world countries are growing in output certainly make investigating AGW worthy. I would like to see more contrary studies funded as well however.

Necessary only because they dropped the ball on it in the first place. How long should their credibility be extended? If it weren't politically driven, this issue would not be in the front of the line gobbling up the economy unchecked. At the best they should have to prove it and get back in line. After all, even if true, there are many other more profound threats that no one can deny are threats. They may not be as hip but they aren't going to wait on climate change and we'll be in a poorer position to deal with these crisis because of the scientific resources squandered on a so far completely fruitless theory.

260 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:34:22pm

re: #254 FrogMarch

Indeed.

global warming isn't always a bad thing.
btw - where is all the calamitous coastal flooding that the global warming alarmists keep telling us is inevitable?

wasn't it rawmuse who took a picture of a rock in a harbor and compared it to a century old photo to show the water level exactly the same?....I thought that was interesting

261 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:34:27pm

re: #256 MandyManners

Patton is on AMC tonight. Check your local listings for the time.

Here's the time... November 11, 1885 to December 21, 1945.

262 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:34:31pm

Speaking of cute, have you seen this.

263 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:36:05pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout

The Science of Cute



Science!
Cuteness!

We gotta' get you a baby.

264 AuntAcid  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:36:18pm

re: #257 Thanos
from JunkScience.com

"The fictitious "trapped heat" property, which they aggressively promote with a dishonest "greenhouse gas" metaphor, is based on their misrepresentation of natural absorption and emission energy transfer processes and disregard of two fundamental laws of physics. Their promotional embellishments have also corrupted the meaning of "greenhouse effect," a term originally relating the loose confinement of warm nighttime air near ground level by cloud cover, to hot air trapped inside a greenhouse."

265 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:36:22pm

re: #259 Salem

Necessary only because they dropped the ball on it in the first place. How long should their credibility be extended? If it weren't politically driven, this issue would not be in the front of the line gobbling up the economy unchecked. At the best they should have to prove it and get back in line. After all, even if true, there are many other more profound threats that no one can deny are threats. They may not be as hip but they aren't going to wait on climate change and we'll be in a poorer position to deal with these crisis because of the scientific resources squandered on a so far completely fruitless theory.

In that I do agree. They shouldn't be line jumping with still questionable hypothesis to the head of the "proven theory" line.

266 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:36:55pm

re: #247 calcajun

I think you can distill it even further.

Is the climate changing? Yes, it's changing just like it always has.
Are we humans doing anything to make it worse? The jury is still out on that one. So before we go wrecking the economies of the developed world--let's get a little more data.

I pretty much in agreement with your post. I also think the ones most skeptical feel that way because it was embraced by Al Gore. If it was just coming from the climate scientists, many more on the right might accept the evidence that the earth is warming and man may well be a partial cause. We could then discuss what if anything we could do about it.

267 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:37:30pm

This is too funny....
Iran banknotes to carry Omid satellite


The logo of Omid, Iran's first domestically-built satellite, is to be featured on coins and banknotes, according to a cabinet decision.


Yes, it's the Star Trek logo.

From Fark.

268 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:38:05pm

re: #263 MandyManners

No thanks. I think there are laws against that sort of thing.

269 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:38:06pm

re: #254 FrogMarch

Indeed.

global warming isn't always a bad thing.
btw - where is all the calamitous coastal flooding that the global warming alarmists keep telling us is inevitable?


I live quite near the great lakes. They were carved out of the earth by Glaciers. Big frozen glaciers, where today people ( at least in Summer) go swimming in the warm waters. Once this area was under tons of ice
The Earth is a powerful powerful powerful thing indeed.
Witness the power of a tornado. A hurricane, A volcano. A tsunami.

Look at the hole that used to be Mt St Helens. Blown into oblivion. With hardly any effort, the planet can spit billions of tons into the atmosphere.

Never underestimate the power of the Earth to do what it will.
And it has all the time in the world ( pardon the pun)

millions and millions and millions of years.
SUV's come and go, as do the dinosaurs, and as do Humans possibly.

we are so insignificant, I just can't imagine we have that much of an impact on something as powerful as Planet Earth herself.

now if this makes me sound like an Idiot, to some of you, then I am an idiot.

I am all for trying to take care of our planet BTW. I fly commercial unlike many so called environmentalists

270 callahan23  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:38:56pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout

Left a comment about Uri Geller on the previous thread for you.

271 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:39:00pm

re: #256 MandyManners

Patton is on AMC tonight. Check your local listings for the time.

A friend of mine's wife is "culturally deprived" she never saw movies or TV as a kid and was forced to concentrate on her studies. She never saw "Patton" or really never knew who he was until a few months ago. He assessment after seeing the movie was that GS Patton was "kind of an asshole".

I concurred, but pointed out that in those circumstances, an asshole is what you need leading an army. He was an asshole, but he was OUR asshole.

272 snowcrash  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:39:27pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout
Yep. If a baby harp seal looked like a tarantula with nice fur we just wouldn't care.

273 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:39:46pm
274 Salem  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:39:47pm

re: #265 Thanos

In that I do agree. They shouldn't be line jumping with still questionable hypothesis to the head of the "proven theory" line.

No, I'm talking about the "clear threat" line. Come on, now.

275 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:39:57pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

This is too funny....
Iran banknotes to carry Omid satellite


Yes, it's the Star Trek logo.

From Fark.

Could Spock be the 12th Imam?

276 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:40:19pm

re: #261 Walter L. Newton

Here's the time... November 11, 1885 to December 21, 1945.

Another reason to wear seatbelts--and not to ride around in 1940 model cars--those things were deathtraps.

277 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:40:54pm

re: #270 callahan23

Ah, thanks. I can't believe he still has a career.

278 midwestgak  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:41:03pm

uh oh. #273

279 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:41:12pm

re: #273 Phsstpok

Piss off, and take your threats with you.

280 Kenneth  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:41:27pm
281 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:41:29pm

re: #275 HelloDare

Could Spock be the 12th Imam?

That is not logical.

282 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:41:29pm

re: #273 Phsstpok

Oh, go piss up a rope.

283 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:42:01pm

Clean up, aisle #273

284 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:42:01pm

re: #273 Phsstpok

You're an asshole.

285 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:42:02pm

re: #254 FrogMarch

Indeed.

global warming isn't always a bad thing.
btw - where is all the calamitous coastal flooding that the global warming alarmists keep telling us is inevitable?

It's years in the future for most areas, but sea levels are rising. Sea level rise`

286 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:42:15pm

WTF?

287 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:42:17pm

re: #279 Charles

Piss off, and take your threats with you.

Wow, that one was nuts. Where are they all coming from this weekend?

288 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:42:20pm

re: #275 HelloDare

"Mullah Kirk, photon torpedoes have been armed and the Jewish homeworld is within range."

289 Proximate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:42:23pm

I am a very strong supporter of the theory of evolution. I also support any other scientific theory which can actually be proven. Us skeptics are not Neo-Luddites.

I question why CO2 levels were 14 times higher during a well-documented Odovician ice age, if CAGW theories are correct.

I question whether, as Dr. Hansen predicts, the seas will rise 25 METERS in 100 years.

NASA's Hansen Reaches Escape Velocity

I remember hearing when Dr. Hansen of NASA GISS first started shilling this theory... he often said that we couldn't wait for full proof, the risks were too great.

However, truly successful scientific theories require proof that pertains to the conditions the theory predicts. The geological record provides plenty of counter-proof to CAGW. What I've seen so far are failed predictions and more failed predictions, and ever more shrill predictions that in turn, fail.

I had lambs once that I named "Lunch" and "Dinner" to remind myself what they were being raised for. Perhaps we should name our planet "Resources" so that we won't worship it as Gaia. While CAGW skepticism isn't religiously inspired, it seems to me that its advocacy is.

290 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:43:14pm

re: #287 CynicalConservative

Wow, that one was nuts. Where are they all coming from this weekend?

Is there a convention in town? Something in the water?

291 callahan23  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:43:28pm

re: #275 HelloDare

Could Spock be the 12th Imam?

Definitely a jew could not be the 12th Imam. As Leonard Nimoy is jewish.
/right?

292 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:43:51pm

OT-Back from Dinner, gonna hopefully watch the race in Cali, hope I win in our Nascar pool.

293 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:43:55pm

re: #280 Kenneth

Cool F-22 Raptor photo

nice machine but I've heard pretty convincing arguments against procuring it in large numbers...it's too good

294 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:44:23pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

"Mullah Kirk, photon torpedoes have been armed and the Jewish homeworld is within range."

There was a recent joke about Muslims and Star Trek. Can't recall it.

295 AuntAcid  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:44:26pm

re: #272 snowcrash

Yep. If a baby harp seal looked like a tarantula with nice fur we just wouldn't care.

Jeesh! Harp Lager...of course...

296 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:44:43pm

re: #291 callahan23

Definitely a jew could not be the 12th Imam. As Leonard Nimoy is jewish.
/right?

But Nimoy is simply a character in real life. Now Spock, well, he's a real person on a TV show.

297 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:44:46pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

"Mullah Kirk, photon torpedoes have been armed and the Jewish homeworld is within range."

Kirk is not Muslim. He's Kirkorean.

298 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:44:49pm

re: #256 MandyManners

Patton is on AMC tonight. Check your local listings for the time.

I bought the 2-disc blu-ray edition.

worth every penny.

299 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:45:11pm

re: #287 CynicalConservative

Wow, that one was nuts. Where are they all coming from this weekend?

This is what happens as soon as you start to challenge the loons on the right to actually think about issues instead of acting like mindless parrots.

Yes, the right has just as many loons as the left.

300 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:45:12pm

re: #291 callahan23

Definitely a jew could not be the 12th Imam. As Leonard Nimoy is jewish.
/right?

That'd be a good joke on Islam

teehee

301 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:45:13pm

There is a not so fine line between respectful debate and discussion and Insults. Totally unnecessary there phsspok. way out of line

302 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:45:30pm

re: #299 Charles

This is what happens as soon as you start to challenge the loons on the right to actually think about issues instead of acting like mindless parrots.

Yes, the right has just as many loons as the left.

QFT

updings to the max

303 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:45:34pm

re: #291 callahan23

Definitely a jew could not be the 12th Imam. As Leonard Nimoy is jewish.
/right?

Shatner is, though. At least he claimed it in a biography--that someone told me about.//

304 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:46:21pm

re: #301 Shug

There is a not so fine line between respectful debate and discussion and Insults. Totally unnecessary there phsspok. way out of line

I'm fairly certain we won't be hearing from phsspok for quite some time. Stinky gave him quite a wallop.

305 lostlakehiker  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:46:39pm

re: #27 Racer X

Here's the main problem I have with AGW. There are many scientists who look at the data that shows there is in fact global warming. Then they go about trying to prove it is in fact caused by man. Whenever anyone questions the link to man they go batshit insane.

Why not look at outside forces? Why not pursue data that shows global warming could indeed be driven by the sun? Or nature?

Its like they already know the answer they want, they just need to prove it. That's not science. That's politics.

The data for the sun do not support blaming it on the sun. There is no need to pursue data about solar flux. We already know. It's not that the sun is getting hotter.

Whether "nature" is the cause? In the end, of course nature is the cause. Counting humanity as part of nature. And odds are that every particularly alarming decade has a cause other than man's activities, which after all are pretty predictable. Every year CO2 goes up, and every year, the level is only somewhat higher than last year. If CO2 alone were responsible, temperatures would just steadily rise. That's not happening. The real question is this: is some meaningful fraction of the rise caused by our own fossil fuel use?

306 CynicalConservative  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:46:57pm

re: #299 Charles

This is what happens as soon as you start to challenge the loons on the right to actually think about issues instead of acting like mindless parrots.

Yes, the right has just as many loons as the left.

Needed to be said again.

307 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:47:14pm

re: #264 AuntAcid

and junk science is being disingenuous there. It's not just about cloud cover at all, it's about amount of reflectivity worldwide. CO2 in the air reflects no matter where it is at, as does water vapor.

See here, there are parts of clouds that aren't visible, but which still reflect. (which demonstrates a flaw in the modeling, but not really a flaw in the physics of the hypothesis) As you can see by my past post I am in the "they haven't proven their case well enough to panic yet" camp. I don't disagree much with the hypothesis, and the potential for danger at some future point.

308 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:47:39pm

re: #299 Charles

This is what happens as soon as you start to challenge the loons on the right to actually think about issues instead of acting like mindless parrots.

Yes, the right has just as many loons as the left.

Charles, I think you owe mindless parrots an apology, likening them to these twits. The parrots are mindless and can't help themselves, whereas the others have no excuse for their stupidity

309 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:47:48pm

I'm seeing this "suicide by cop" thing going on this weekend.

I have never seen so many kamikaze style comments where people are deliberately getting blocked.

WTF is going on?

310 callahan23  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:48:02pm

re: #296 Walter L. Newton

But Nimoy is simply a character in real life. Now Spock, well, he's a real person on a TV show.

Lol - Got the book 'I am Spock' by Leonard Nimoy right here at my desk.

311 Tamron  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:48:04pm

re: #249 Jetpilot1101

This is my interim solution that should ween us off fossil fuels; the Pebble Bed Nuclear Reactor.


Heres another good one: HYPERION POWER GENERATION
.

312 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:48:11pm

re: #299 Charles

This is what happens as soon as you start to challenge the loons on the right to actually think about issues instead of acting like mindless parrots.

Yes, the right has just as many loons as the left.

I have a parrot, and it is not mindless. And it's not conservative. But it likes LGF.

313 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:48:16pm

re: #266 avanti

I pretty much in agreement with your post. I also think the ones most skeptical feel that way because it was embraced by Al Gore. If it was just coming from the climate scientists, many more on the right might accept the evidence that the earth is warming and man may well be a partial cause. We could then discuss what if anything we could do about it.

Hi Avanti. I agree with your post except the part that if man may be a partial cause , we should discuss what we can do about it. I would suggest that before we do anything about it, it should first be more clearly established that we are making a significant contribution to Global Warming.

314 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:48:52pm

re: #264 AuntAcid

from JunkScience.com

"The fictitious "trapped heat" property, which they aggressively promote with a dishonest "greenhouse gas" metaphor, is based on their misrepresentation of natural absorption and emission energy transfer processes and disregard of two fundamental laws of physics. Their promotional embellishments have also corrupted the meaning of "greenhouse effect," a term originally relating the loose confinement of warm nighttime air near ground level by cloud cover, to hot air trapped inside a greenhouse."

junkscience.com is not a credible source.

315 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:48:58pm

re: #310 callahan23

Lol - Got the book 'I am Spock' by Leonard Nimoy right here at my desk.

I've rarely seen an episode of Trek or the movies.

316 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:49:24pm

re: #305 lostlakehiker

The data for the sun do not support blaming it on the sun. There is no need to pursue data about solar flux. We already know. It's not that the sun is getting hotter.

Whether "nature" is the cause? In the end, of course nature is the cause. Counting humanity as part of nature. And odds are that every particularly alarming decade has a cause other than man's activities, which after all are pretty predictable. Every year CO2 goes up, and every year, the level is only somewhat higher than last year. If CO2 alone were responsible, temperatures would just steadily rise. That's not happening. The real question is this: is some meaningful fraction of the rise caused by our own fossil fuel use?


Actually rises in temperature CAUSES rises in CO2, not the other way around (I read about a study of CO2 trapped in antarctic ice).

Besides, rises in CO2 would allow more plants to flourish, causing a rise in O2. There is an Oxygen-Carbon Dioxide balance in the air that is quite possibly dependant on the balance of oxygen breathers (animals + humans) versus carbon dioxide breathers (plants).

317 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:49:30pm

re: #287 CynicalConservative

Wow, that one was nuts. Where are they all coming from this weekend?

I think the critical discussion of some issues dear to the hearts of those on the far right fringes are unsettling to some. Sort of like suggesting government is not the solution to all problems might upset those on the left fringe.
This is the first thread I've seen where a poster that even suggested that AGW might be happening could survive a attack.

318 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:49:40pm

re: #309 Shug

I'm seeing this "suicide by cop" thing going on this weekend.

I have never seen so many kamikaze style comments where people are deliberately getting blocked.

WTF is going on?

there is a secret club somewhere....they force a showdown and get a special merit badge for their bravery

319 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:49:41pm

re: #308 calcajun

Charles, I think you owe mindless parrots an apology, likening them to these twits. The parrots are mindless and can't help themselves, whereas the others have no excuse for their stupidity

Hey, watch it with the mindless parrot talk. Maisey is reading everything on here.

320 lostlakehiker  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:49:54pm

re: #289 Proximate

I am a very strong supporter of the theory of evolution. I also support any other scientific theory which can actually be proven. Us skeptics are not Neo-Luddites.

I question why CO2 levels were 14 times higher during a well-documented Odovician ice age, if CAGW theories are correct.

I question whether, as Dr. Hansen predicts, the seas will rise 25 METERS in 100 years.

NASA's Hansen Reaches Escape Velocity

I remember hearing when Dr. Hansen of NASA GISS first started shilling this theory... he often said that we couldn't wait for full proof, the risks were too great.

However, truly successful scientific theories require proof that pertains to the conditions the theory predicts. The geological record provides plenty of counter-proof to CAGW. What I've seen so far are failed predictions and more failed predictions, and ever more shrill predictions that in turn, fail.

I had lambs once that I named "Lunch" and "Dinner" to remind myself what they were being raised for. Perhaps we should name our planet "Resources" so that we won't worship it as Gaia. While CAGW skepticism isn't religiously inspired, it seems to me that its advocacy is.

Name the earth Dinner if you like; it's still not a good idea to overcook it.

As to mindless parrots, (re 308), see Alex and Me, the story of the African Grey's Parrot Alex, and researcher Irene Pepperberg. Parrots can be astonishingly clever.

321 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:50:22pm
322 DEZes  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:50:23pm

I go to buy cigarettes and miss a nutjob, must have been a doozy.

323 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:50:45pm

re: #320 lostlakehiker

Name the earth Dinner if you like; it's still not a good idea to overcook it.

As to mindless parrots, (re 308), see Alex and Me, the story of the African Grey's Parrot Alex, and researcher Irene Pepperberg. Parrots can be astonishingly clever.

And Maisey thanks you.

324 Shug  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:04pm

re: #318 albusteve

there is a secret club somewhere....they force a showdown and get a special merit badge for their bravery

do they get virgins?

325 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:07pm

re: #291 callahan23

Definitely a jew could not be the 12th Imam. As Leonard Nimoy is jewish.
/right?

Perhaps he has 'reverted" to his true Islamic self.

326 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:09pm

re: #315 Walter L. Newton

I've rarely seen an episode of Trek or the movies.

me neither..Kirk prancing around the universe hitting on girls never interested me..

327 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:11pm
328 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:12pm

re: #321 buzzsawmonkey

But can she parrot it back?

Like Dragonspeak?

329 Tamron  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:27pm

re: #237 Killgore Trout

Now for your daily does of stupid....
Obama performance body art


Look out for the goatees......
.

330 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:32pm

re: #321 buzzsawmonkey

But can she parrot it back?

What!

331 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:40pm

re: #319 Walter L. Newton

Sorry-for every rule, there is the exception.

332 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:51pm

re: #309 Shug

I'm seeing this "suicide by cop" thing going on this weekend.

I have never seen so many kamikaze style comments where people are deliberately getting blocked.

WTF is going on?

I think Killgore was right a few months ago that some people on the right want to go crazy. Pointing out when a member of "our team" got it wrong is a perfect excuse. Lemming mentality isn't just on the left. I guess some would rather go over the cliff than think for themselves. I say, let them.

333 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:51:54pm

re: #327 buzzsawmonkey

The Stimulus Bill will create or save three to four million nutjobs.

The government of the nutjob, by the nutjob, for the nutjob shall not perish from the earth.

334 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:52:44pm
335 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:53:03pm

re: #334 buzzsawmonkey

What am I missing?

Right!

336 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:53:09pm

We even had a meltdown over the dowsing thread today.

337 AuntAcid  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:53:21pm

re: #307 Thanos

as they say, "this ain't over."

338 snowcrash  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:53:39pm

re: #334 buzzsawmonkey
What

339 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:53:40pm

re: #299 Charles

This is what happens as soon as you start to challenge the loons on the right to actually think about issues instead of acting like mindless parrots.

Yes, the right has just as many loons as the left.

You are correct, of course.
And as much as I hate that it's true, as much as I don't want it to be true, "facts is facts".

People must be able to take a good hard critical look at themselves, as individuals and as part of any group, and be secure in their ability to sort things out instead of being fearful over what they might see that is uncomfortable.

It's often the crises and discomfort we encounter in our lives that enable us to move forward and make progress.

340 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:53:59pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

I think Killgore was right a few months ago that some people on the right want to go crazy. Pointing out when a member of "our team" got it wrong is a perfect excuse. Lemming mentality isn't just on the left. I guess some would rather go over the cliff than think for themselves. I say, let them.


I don't like the loony left not the Rapid Right

341 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:54:17pm

I see Andrew Bostom has an article at American Thinker trying to cover for Geert Wilders' desire to ban the Koran.

342 reine.de.tout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:54:42pm

re: #309 Shug

I'm seeing this "suicide by cop" thing going on this weekend.

I have never seen so many kamikaze style comments where people are deliberately getting blocked.

WTF is going on?

I think some folks see it as a badge of honor to be blocked. I've seen bragging at other sites about it, and one suggestion that some sort of "badge" be created for people to display on their blogs!

343 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:54:48pm

re: #340 HoosierHoops

I don't like the loony left not Nor the Rapid Right


jeesh

344 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:54:48pm

re: #334 buzzsawmonkey

Then use Windows Media Player...

home.comcast.net/~newtonw2/miscpics/maisey_what.avi

345 carefulnow  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:55:31pm

Clearly, there are more parrot-lovers here and in the interest of fairness, I present the loon:

346 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:55:39pm

re: #344 Walter L. Newton

Then use Windows Media Player...

home.comcast.net/~newtonw2/miscpics/maisey_what.avi

The "i" should have been with ".avi"

347 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:56:38pm

re: #336 Charles

We even had a meltdown over the dowsing thread today.

if you posted some innocuous gag thread you would still attract somebody out to....have you get them?

348 snowcrash  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:56:47pm

re: #344 Walter L. Newton
Love it. Did you record that just for LGF?

349 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:56:52pm
350 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:57:08pm

re: #323 Walter L. Newton

And Maisey thanks you.

Do you have Maisey in your will?

351 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:57:25pm

re: #346 Walter L. Newton

The "i" should have been with ".avi"

If you've heard of the VLC media player, its pretty decent, too. It even includes a DVD codec so you can watch DVD movies if you have a DVD drive and your computer didn't come with the drivers for it.

352 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:57:32pm

re: #349 buzzsawmonkey

I only have it in AVI format..

home.comcast.net/~newtonw2/miscpics/maisey_what.avi

353 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:57:57pm

I went 6 posts with Charles Johnson!....SIX!...

354 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:58:31pm

re: #341 Charles

I noticed that Geert said he opposes hate speech laws while accepting some free speech award recently. He still hasn't mentioned changing his mind on outlawing the Quran. I strongly suspect he's taking the same approach as Robert and Pamela by only opposing when other people use hate speech laws.

355 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:58:33pm
356 Gus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:58:35pm

George Will's specialty has always been vocabulary and grammar.

357 Hengineer  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:58:46pm

re: #350 katemaclaren

Do you have Maisey in your will?

Polly want a trust fund?

358 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:58:55pm

There really is an outbreak lately of people saying nutty things & getting banned.
I am not saying that it is a plot by extra-terrestrials, but I'm not saying that it isn't.

359 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:59:04pm

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

I only have it in AVI format..

home.comcast.net/~newtonw2/miscpics/maisey_what.av i

CHARLES. Why does you software move the "i" in "avi" and put a space in it.

Here... the following line I clipped and pasted, and the "I" is right next to the "v"

home.comcast.net/~newtonw2/miscpics/maisey_what.avi

Yet, when I post this, I bet the it reads ".av i"

360 Neutral President  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:59:36pm

re: #336 Charles

"Why do you hate magic! May the aliens from the Pleiades that come to save mankind in 2012, leave you behind!"

/moonbat

361 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:59:38pm

re: #299 Charles

This is what happens as soon as you start to challenge the loons on the right to actually think about issues instead of acting like mindless parrots.

Yes, the right has just as many loons as the left.

You're just shaking the tree.

362 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 2:59:40pm

re: #359 Walter L. Newton

Yep.

Charles, why is it parsing it that way?

363 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:00:33pm

re: #350 katemaclaren

Do you have Maisey in your will?

Er, no. I don't even have a will.

364 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:00:36pm

I had to interview a Dowser once. It was very difficult for me to keep a straight face and write about it later. He was a champ, too. Bucks County PA

365 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:00:55pm

re: #356 Gus 802

George Will's specialty has always been vocabulary and grammar.

he invents words just to make me even more stupid...

366 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:00:56pm

re: #356 Gus 802

George Will's specialty has always been vocabulary and grammar.

And, baseball.

367 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:01:07pm

re: #353 albusteve

I went 6 posts with Charles Johnson!....SIX!...

? I don't get it?

368 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:01:10pm

re: #348 snowcrash

Love it. Did you record that just for LGF?

Yes.

369 Sharmuta  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:01:46pm

Charles- you're such a Troublemaker.

370 katemaclaren  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:02:21pm

re: #363 Walter L. Newton

Er, no. I don't even have a will.

In Australia, people who buy parrots have to sign something promising to make provisions for their parrots in their wills! Those Cockatoos live a long time.

371 Gus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:02:23pm

re: #366 MandyManners

And, baseball.

I forgot about that.

Then he has a lot in common with Keith Olbermann.

372 Kenneth  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:02:24pm

re: #336 Charles

We even had a meltdown over the dowsing thread today.

I'm looking forward to a thread on snake handling homeopathic yogic flying. That'll bring out the real troll meltdowns!

373 snowcrash  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:02:52pm

re: #349 buzzsawmonkey
Walter is prompting Maisey to speak . Walter says "what"/parrot says "squawk". repeat until desired effect. laughter ensues.

374 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:03:03pm

re: #367 katemaclaren

? I don't get it?

they challenge him...as in boxing rounds

375 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:03:04pm

re: #341 Charles

Earlier, while calling the Koran hate speech with specific reference to the Dutch Penal Code, Wilders was simply asking for consistent application of the Dutch law.
....
Geert Wilders is opposed to all hate speech laws, as he stated explicitly on February 19, 2009 in Rome, and previously, here: "Everything should be possible except to issue calls for violence."

So is the nuance here that the Quran is a call to violence and should still be banned?

376 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:03:19pm

re: #358 opnion

There really is an outbreak lately of people saying nutty things & getting banned.
I am not saying that it is a plot by extra-terrestrials, but I'm not saying that it isn't.

Charles is poking at some of the dark, deeper corners of the SoCon base. There are people disintegrating here who don't even have a real clue where their reflexive "mindset" originated from. Some will take the clue and do some reading and come to their senses, others will just get loonier.

377 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:03:30pm

re: #373 snowcrash

Walter is prompting Maisey to speak . Walter says "what"/parrot says "squawk". repeat until desired effect. laughter ensues.

No, parrot say "what" not squawk. Listen closely.

378 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:04:05pm

The comment software inserts spaces into long strings, to prevent blowing up the thread and causing the page to expand horizontally if people post long runs of characters.

Just put 'www.' in front of it and it will be converted to a link.

379 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:04:07pm

re: #372 Kenneth

I'm looking forward to a thread on snake handling homeopathic yogic flying. That'll bring out the real troll meltdowns!

They say the homeopathic Keith Olbermann remedy works quite well.

380 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:04:35pm

'Angst'-Ridden Hillary Clinton Found Answers in the Beatles

"Well, like so many Beatles fans, it depends both on mood and stage of life. I have to confess ... that the hand-clapping mode was what I first was captured by. 'I Want to Hold Your Hand' was an anthem, as you might imagine."

Clinton named "Hey Jude" as her favorite Beatles song, praising its Biblical tone and seriousness — but she might have trouble heeding some of its "existential" lessons.

/video not posted yet

381 Neutral President  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:05:07pm

re: #358 opnion

I am not saying that it is a plot by extra-terrestrials, but I'm not saying that it isn't.

That's Hulu, not LGF.

382 Bloodnok  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:05:21pm

re: #380 Killian Bundy

'Angst'-Ridden Hillary Clinton Found Answers in the Beatles

/video not posted yet

Oh Killian, don't do this to me....

//

383 JacksonTn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:05:25pm

re: #377 Walter L. Newton

No, parrot say "what" not squawk. Listen closely.

Walter ...Maisey is cute (if a parrot can be cute) ... what else can she say? ...I had a mynah bird once ...it cost me a fortune and it never said one word ...

384 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:05:29pm
385 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:05:51pm

re: #378 Charles

The comment software inserts spaces into long strings, to prevent blowing up the thread and causing the page to expand horizontally if people post long runs of characters.

Just put 'www.' in front of it and it will be converted to a link.

Got it. Software just see it as one long string, and you truncate long strings, linefeed/return and continue on next line or more.

386 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:06:09pm

re: #380 Killian Bundy

'Angst'-Ridden Hillary Clinton Found Answers in the Beatles

/video not posted yet

Hillary's been smoking dope.

387 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:06:18pm

re: #380 Killian Bundy

'Angst'-Ridden Hillary Clinton Found Answers in the Beatles


/video not posted yet

... but was she playing their albums backwards?

388 Gus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:06:47pm

re: #380 Killian Bundy

Clinton named "Hey Jude" as her favorite Beatles song, praising its Biblical tone and seriousness — but she might have trouble heeding some of its "existential" lessons.

Who wrote that a member of the clergy?

389 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:01pm

re: #376 Thanos

Charles is poking at some of the dark, deeper corners of the SoCon base. There are people disintegrating here who don't even have a real clue where their reflexive "mindset" originated from. Some will take the clue and do some reading and come to their senses, others will just get loonier.

Here is what I don't get, you have to do some lurking before you catch an open registration. By the time you get an account, you should have a pretty good idea of what will get you baned.
It seems like, there is a desire to get tossed off of the sled.

390 JacksonTn  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:03pm

re: #384 buzzsawmonkey

buzzsaw ...I have a mac and could see Walters video ...do you have flipformac? I think that is the name ...I downloaded it on my mac and can see most videos ...

391 Bloodnok  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:06pm

re: #380 Killian Bundy

'Angst'-Ridden Hillary Clinton Found Answers in the Beatles

/video not posted yet

So did Charles Manson.

392 rightwinger3  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:08pm

OT:

Comedy of the Day:

"Nightline" co-anchor Terry Moran gave an interview on Friday to the Media Bistro's "Morning Media Menu" podcast and compared Barack Obama to George Washington. Talking to host and editor Steve Krakauer, Moran gushed, "I like to say that, in some ways, Barack Obama is the first President since George Washington to be taking a step down into the Oval Office." (For those who have forgotten, George Washington defeated the strongest military power in the world. Barack Obama was a community organizer.)

393 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:13pm

Just a comment from someone on the left. If the GOP starts to openly question some of the issues that that just cater to the extremes on the right while scaring off the moderates you might be pick up some votes. You can keep the core beliefs, and reject the ID stuff, maybe moderate the AGW rants for example.
Of course, the left should reject some of the Polosi like positions and the like too. We'll always have clear choices, but both parties could clean up their fringes.

394 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:22pm

re: #387 Thanos

... but was she playing their albums backwards?

That's her voice that you hear when you play the albums backwards.

395 Kenneth  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:46pm

re: #380 Killian Bundy

Hey Jude was written by Paul as a bit of avuncular advice to Julian Lennon on how to get along with his weird step-mom, Yoko.

396 calcajun  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:50pm

re: #380 Killian Bundy

'Angst'-Ridden Hillary Clinton Found Answers in the Beatles

/video not posted yet

This is from The Onion? Tell me I'm wrong? Next, she'll say she found hidden meanings by playing the LP's backward

397 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:07:58pm

re: #383 JacksonTn

Walter ...Maisey is cute (if a parrot can be cute) ... what else can she say? ...I had a mynah bird once ...it cost me a fortune and it never said one word ...

Maisey gets on the computer and says hilarious stuff behind his back.

398 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:08:23pm
399 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:08:29pm

re: #383 JacksonTn

Walter ...Maisey is cute (if a parrot can be cute) ... what else can she say? ...I had a mynah bird once ...it cost me a fortune and it never said one word ...

No other words. She is a red-lored Amazon, which are not know as big talkers. But, she has a large repertoire of sounds (laugh, crow, chicken, beeps, chuckles, screams, barks).

Some Amazon's are great talkers.

400 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:08:44pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Earlier, while calling the Koran hate speech with specific reference to the Dutch Penal Code, Wilders was simply asking for consistent application of the Dutch law.
....
Geert Wilders is opposed to all hate speech laws, as he stated explicitly on February 19, 2009 in Rome, and previously, here: "Everything should be possible except to issue calls for violence."

So is the nuance here that the Quran is a call to violence and should still be banned?

Notice that in all those quotes and links, Wilders never actually says what they say he "meant." He did come out very clearly, and very unequivocally, and call for the Koran to be banned, and he NEVER said it was because he wanted to enforce the law equally.

I'm getting used to these people's attempts to spin and distort the truth.

401 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:08:46pm

re: #371 Gus 802

I forgot about that.

Then he has a lot in common with Keith Olbermann.

I don't think Will has a vain bone in his body.

402 rightwinger3  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:09:17pm

re: #393 avanti

Just a comment from someone on the left. If the GOP starts to openly question some of the issues that that just cater to the extremes on the right while scaring off the moderates you might be pick up some votes. You can keep the core beliefs, and reject the ID stuff, maybe moderate the AGW rants for example.
Of course, the left should reject some of the Polosi like positions and the like too. We'll always have clear choices, but both parties could clean up their fringes.

Some?
/

403 HelloDare  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:09:17pm

Ringo doesn't look very happy to have Hillary so near. [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

404 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:10:02pm

re: #386 HelloDare

Hillary's been smoking dope.

Hey Jude is a lullabye/ballad written for a baby Julian Lennon...it does have gospel overtones and a spiritual quality for sure....but both Lennon and McCartney were very much into words and phrases that fit rather than if they made any sense....they music it ful of stuff that sounds really poetic but is totally illogical....they loved it that way

405 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:10:27pm
406 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:10:47pm

re: #389 opnion

Here is what I don't get, you have to do some lurking before you catch an open registration. By the time you get an account, you should have a pretty good idea of what will get you baned.
It seems like, there is a desire to get tossed off of the sled.

I reckon some nuts wear it as a badge of honor.

407 Gus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:10:58pm

re: #405 buzzsawmonkey

We can get rid of green house gas if we just paint all the houses brown.

/Badabing

408 callahan23  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:05pm

re: #405 buzzsawmonkey

We can get rid of green house gas if we just paint all the houses brown.

A million dings for that.

409 Randall Gross  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:09pm

re: #389 opnion

Here is what I don't get, you have to do some lurking before you catch an open registration. By the time you get an account, you should have a pretty good idea of what will get you baned.
It seems like, there is a desire to get tossed off of the sled.

Yeah, well some are undoubtably socks who self destruct on purpose over and over again in an attempt to diminish the credibility of the site or something. Because as a general rule those who self destruct are "consensus thinkers" they probably think they are having some effect. "gee if so and so doesn't think this is a good site anymore it must not be" works only with people who follow fads, but not with people who actually think for themselves on most things.

410 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:09pm

re: #393 avanti

Just a comment from someone on the left. If the GOP starts to openly question some of the issues that that just cater to the extremes on the right while scaring off the moderates you might be pick up some votes. You can keep the core beliefs, and reject the ID stuff, maybe moderate the AGW rants for example.
Of course, the left should reject some of the Polosi like positions and the like too. We'll always have clear choices, but both parties could clean up their fringes.

You are half right. The democratic party should just, well, go away. That would be the same thing as you said, clean up the fringe. The left is all fringe, all the time.

411 albusteve  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:11pm

re: #405 buzzsawmonkey

We can get rid of green house gas if we just paint all the houses brown.

they do exactly that in Rio Ranch NM developements....thousands of brown houses

412 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:11pm

re: #405 buzzsawmonkey

We can get rid of green house gas if we just paint all the houses brown.

What about out-house gas?

413 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:20pm

re: #403 HelloDare

Ringo doesn't look very happy to have Hillary so near. [Link: www.foxnews.com...]

/they played the video on FNC so it exists, priceless, can't find it yet

414 Irish Rose  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:48pm

Charles, check your inbox.

415 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:12:51pm

Oh, dear. I've been listening to too many of The Kid's farting jokes.

416 rightwinger3  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:13:03pm

re: #406 MandyManners

I reckon some nuts wear it as a badge of honor.

Like all those people that scramble to get on the NRA blacklist because they think it's cool. Until someone breaks in to their home...

417 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:13:34pm

re: #414 Irish Rose

Charles, check your inbox.

I saw it. I don't care what those people write. They're insane.

418 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:13:46pm
419 nyc redneck  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:14:00pm

when you have a scientific issue open to so much interpretation, and one side, the algore alarmists, saying "debate is over",
well, that is unacceptable.

they are not after information and evidence to solve a problem or even see if one really exists.
they are trying to hold the subject hostage and use it for their own gain.
(algore has made a hundred million dollars on gw already. of course he wants the debate to be over.)

420 callahan23  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:14:04pm

re: #412 MandyManners

What about out-house gas?

That's the worst of all besides cows flatulence.
/

421 Neutral President  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:14:37pm

re: #327 buzzsawmonkey

The Stimulus Bill will create or save three to four million nutjobs.

I'm going to use this quote when appropriate if you don't mind.

422 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:14:50pm

re: #400 Charles

From Geert's recent speech....

As you know, the Koran calls for hatred, violence, submission, murder, terrorism, war, Jihad. The Koran calls upon Muslims to kill non-Muslims and he Koran considers Jews to be monkeys and pigs.
.....
That is why I propose the withdrawal of all hate speech legislation in Europe. I propose a European First Amendment.


So even though he's for free speech he still wants to ban the Quran as a call to violence. I think that's the most generous interpretation I can give him.

423 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:15:00pm
424 opnion  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:16:01pm

re: #395 Kenneth

Hey Jude was written by Paul as a bit of avuncular advice to Julian Lennon on how to get along with his weird step-mom, Yoko.

That's right, but I think it also had to do with the weirdness of John Lennon as well. As a couple ., John & Yoko were weird. She was a Dominatrix.

425 Taqyia2Me  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:16:06pm

re: #419 nyc redneck

algore: very worst kind of swine

426 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:18:33pm

re: #415 MandyManners

Oh, dear. I've been listening to too many of The Kid's farting jokes.

Are fart's lumpy?

427 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:18:43pm

re: #416 rightwinger3

Like all those people that scramble to get on the NRA blacklist because they think it's cool. Until someone breaks in to their home...

The NRA has a black-list?

428 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:19:07pm

re: #418 buzzsawmonkey

As soon as I can obtain funding for my stink tank to study the problem, I'll get back to you.

LOL!

429 Dustyvet  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:19:24pm

re: #425 Taqyia2Me

algore: very worst kind of swine

On July 8, 1947, witnesses claim a spaceship with five aliens aboard crashed on a sheep-and-cattle ranch outside Roswell, an incident they say has been covered up by the military.
March 31, 1948, nine months after that day, Al Gore was born.

That clears up a lot of things.

430 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:19:33pm

Hey all,

I have been dying to weigh in on global warming. My field of research if Chaos Theory, and in specific, I am working on problems of turbulence. I am not trying to be a tease, at some point I am certain that I will get into some very long discussions about this. I just can't tonight.

That said, I really do want to leave some thoughts...

1. Politics is not science. If you find someone arguing that either that the world will end tomorrow or that there is no problem at all, you have instant proof that the main motivation of the speaker is political rather than scientific. It is also, much like the creationist thermodynamic argument, proof to a scientist that the speaker has not looked at or understood the science. At best, they cherry picked snatches of the science and heard only what they wanted to hear. This applies to both camps. I have said before and will say again, a pox on both their houses.

2. This is a no - duh statement but the MSM is not a good place to get science. The MSM is out to sell their product, they do this by sensationalizing things and by over-simplifying things to the point that they are just wrong. The only really trustworthy sources are the peer reviewedjournal papers themselves.

3. As per the evidence, there is no longer any doubt whatsoever that the climate is changing. I have posted a ton of links before on this, and I will dig up more again when I have more time.

4. There are precisely three debates here that are legitimate as far as the science goes. First, How much of it is caused by humans? Second, What can we do about it? Finally, How bad do we think it will get and how quickly will it get bad?

5. As to those debates, the first one, it is certain that humans have had some effect. Many respectable people have good arguments that we are the dominant cause. Other respectable people have respectable arguments that maybe not, but they are with each passing year, becoming more and more of the minority - and this is not a conspiracy in the academic world to hurt the oil companies or make Republicans sad. This is the ebb and flow of the scientific process as it tackles open questions.

The second question is much more complicated and much more open to speculation. We do not have easy answers. Someone who tells you that there are easy answers is full of crap. This applies to both sides. I personally say that we need to get off of oil anyway for plenty of other good reasons and that we can make fission reactors that can't melt down, but that is another discussion.

The third question is the most problematic to discuss with non scientists. The models are very complex and no-one claims that they are perfect. It is also very difficult to estimate exactly how predictive they are. However, they are not nothing and they are not as limited as their detractors would like to wish they were. Honestly, getting bogged down in the numerical details of evaluating huge systems of linked differential equations is a technical subject. Honestly, many of the arguments made by nonscientists about the limitations of the models indicate that they do not understand the actual limitations of the models and are again only arguing out of what they don't like, not what they know. On the flip side, the moonbat who takes the worst, most cherry picked, read of the most pessimistic models, without any understanding of the math or the science either, is not any better. The honest answer is we don't know, but we have very good reason to believe that when we do know, we will not like the answers.

431 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:19:43pm

re: #420 callahan23

That's the worst of all besides cows flatulence.
/

Have you seen the photographs of cow-flatulence collection devices?

432 rightymouse  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:20:15pm

re: #383 JacksonTn

Walter ...Maisey is cute (if a parrot can be cute) ... what else can she say? ...I had a mynah bird once ...it cost me a fortune and it never said one word ...

We had a mynah bird too. We were told to feed it hot chili peppers and talk really fast to it and it would repeat the words back really fast because of the peppers. It didn't last long.

433 MandyManners  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:20:24pm

re: #426 Walter L. Newton

Are fart's lumpy?

I have no idea.

434 Dustyvet  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:20:56pm

Documents released by the White House show that the Democratic National Committee asked Al Gore to make 140 calls to campaign donors, but he only connected on 56 of them. The other 84 hung up because he sounds just like a dial tone.

435 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:21:26pm

re: #410 Walter L. Newton

You are half right. The democratic party should just, well, go away. That would be the same thing as you said, clean up the fringe. The left is all fringe, all the time.

That's where you and I disagree. We need both parties to curb the excesses. i.e., I think GW strayed from the Conservative principles of fiscal responsibility, embraced the religious right and the rest. By so doing, the voters moved to the left for a "change". If the left swings us too far, the country will swing right again to get us centered again.

436 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:21:31pm

re: #422 Killgore Trout

So even though he's for free speech he still wants to ban the Quran as a call to violence. I think that's the most generous interpretation I can give him.

Didn't LGF run a Fitna thread or two?

/not trying to cause trouble

437 Dustyvet  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:22:08pm

Q: What's the difference between Al Gore and a slab of formica?
A: Absolutely nothing.

438 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:23:06pm

re: #436 Killian Bundy

Didn't LGF run a Fitna thread or two?

/not trying to cause trouble

Yes, I did. But I wouldn't do it again, now that Wilders has made it clear he wants to ban books and outlaw religions, and is reportedly making alliances with Eurofascist groups.

Did you miss all of that?

439 rightwinger3  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:23:07pm

re: #427 MandyManners

The NRA has a black-list?

Here.

440 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:23:08pm

re: #430 LudwigVanQuixote


...and this is not a conspiracy in the academic world to hurt the oil companies or make Republicans sad.

Funny because it's so true!

441 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:27:10pm

re: #436 Killian Bundy

I don't see that as a problem. I don't oppose his film. My only real criticism is that he chickened out on tearing the pages at the end. His views on outlawing the Quran, which was not stated in the movie, is a different matter.

442 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:27:30pm

re: #436 Killian Bundy

Didn't LGF run a Fitna thread or two?

/not trying to cause trouble

Yes, before he revealed exactly who he is.

443 Dustyvet  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:28:17pm

Al Gore Concession Speech, 1st Draft
Good evening, my fellow American: Tonight we come to the end of a long road
and the start of a new one. Having exhausted all avenues of appeal in the U.S. and Florida, my legal team has filed a claim in World Court seeking to overturn the Florida elect..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 2nd Draft
Good evening, my fellow Americans: Tonight, in the spirit of national unity and despite being the undisputed winner of the popular vote..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 3rd Draft
Good evening, everyone. Many of you no doubt know what it feels like to get royally shaf..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 4th Draft
Good evening, my fellow Americans. Although it is the opinion of my attorneys and myself that I do not fit the legal definition of "loser," ..

Crumple, crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 5th Draft Good evening, my fellow Americans. Approximately 12 million light years ago, when I was first dispatched to your planet from Zolloid 9 ..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 6th Draft
I can't do this. I just can't do this.

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 7th Draft
Hello, my fellow Americans. It's been a long and difficult month for me and, indeed, for the entire nation. But the time has come for us all to throw our enthusiastic support behind our next president, George W. Buhh
Bbb .
Bahoo. (laugh) Pardon me. Let me try that again: President
George
W. Buh,
Buh. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, PEOPLE! HOW HARD CAN IT BE TO PUNCH OUT A FREAKIN' CARDBOARD HOLE IN A BALLOT! MORONS!

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 8th Draft
My fellow Americans, in light of recent unfavorable court decisions, it has come to my understanding that a majority of you want to turn the country over to a recovering alcoholic and functional illiterate..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 9th Draft (folksy approach) Good evening, my fellow Americans. You know, when I was young boy frolicking on the zero-gravity ash fields of Zolloid 9, it never occurred to me when I downloaded the human emotion coding sequence..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 10th Draft
Good evening, my fellow Americans. Have you ever known someone who took something from a store without paying for it? That's called "stealing," and in American stealing is a cri..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 11th Draft
My fellow American, most of you probably know how to count. One. Two. Three. And so on. See? It's not that difficult. (Smile). So can someone please explain to me why the state of Florida..

Crumple crumple crumple
Al Gore Concession Speech, 12 Draft
Good evening, everyone. Generally speaking, civil war is never a good thing. But there are times . ah, forget it.

444 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:29:26pm

re: #441 Killgore Trout

I don't see that as a problem. I don't oppose his film. My only real criticism is that he chickened out on tearing the pages at the end. His views on outlawing the Quran, which was not stated in the movie, is a different matter.

I don't see the film itself as a problem either -- although it is more than a little over the top. I do have a big problem with the Eurofascist stuff. I supported Wilders because I believed he was one of the few anti-jihad figures in Europe who was staying away from the fascist groups. I can't support him any more.

445 Bloodnok  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:29:31pm

re: #437 Dustyvet

Q: What's the difference between Al Gore and a slab of formica?
A: Absolutely nothing.

Then I present: The Al Gore Doll (from The Simpsons)

446 Killian Bundy  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:32:04pm

re: #438 Charles

Did you miss all of that?

No, I didn't miss any of it. Whatever his transgressions, his description of the Koran is still accurate. Banning it goes to far.

As you know, the Koran calls for hatred, violence, submission, murder, terrorism, war, Jihad. The Koran calls upon Muslims to kill non-Muslims and he Koran considers Jews to be monkeys and pigs.

/again, I'm not trying to cause trouble

447 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:33:58pm

Great. Now Bill Amos is going to melt down over the Glenn Beck thread. He just posted this link:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]


It amazes me that people think I'm going to let them use my own software to insult and belittle me.

448 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:37:11pm

I've also become aware of posts by Bill Amos at Spencer's site, by the way.

449 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:37:59pm

Hey, Colonel Panik -- why did you down-ding my comment about James Inhofe's Dominionist connections? Are you going to try to deny it?

450 Killgore Trout  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:40:11pm

re: #444 Charles

Agreed.

451 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:44:14pm

re: #448 Charles

I've also become aware of posts by Bill Amos at Spencer's site, by the way.

Charles, with the greatest respect, Bill Amos does not matter. What matters is that you are standing up for some semblance of sanity. I imagine that you must be feeling completely betrayed by a lot of people.

They suck.

Please, remember that when you point to elephants in a room, extreme people will respond badly. You can do nothing about that. Just keep pointing at the elephants and F* them.

452 Colonel Panik  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:45:32pm

Carbon dioxide is not a poison. It's plant food.
This AGW carbon footprint nonsense reminds me of that Penn & Teller "Bullsh**" video where they go around trying to get greenies to sign a petition banning "dihydrogen monoxide"...water.

Charles, I sincerely hope you are not going to start beating the drum for the AGW crowd.

Oh, and I downdinged you comment about Imhofe because I suspect you are using such info to tar all skeptics of AGW with the Dominionist/Creationist brush, not because I don't believe Imhofe might have Dominionist connections.
Did it ever occur to you that Imhofe might have other motives for opposing AGW, like the negative impact on our economy of "anti-global warming" measures that have nothing to do with his religious beliefs?


And now, I'm going to go out a increase my carbon footprint by taking a Sunday afternoon ride in my diesel Jeep.

453 Charles Johnson  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:46:41pm

re: #452 Colonel Panik

What a completely ignorant comment. This is the kind of stuff that makes conservatives look like idiots.

454 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:47:47pm

re: #452 Colonel Panik

Carbon dioxide is not a poison. It's plant food.
This AGW carbon footprint nonsense reminds me of that Penn & Teller "Bullsh**" video where they go around trying to get greenies to sign a petition banning "dihydrogen monoxide"...water.

Charles, I sincerely hope you are not going to start beating the drum for the AGW crowd.

Oh, and I downdinged you comment about Imhofe because I suspect you are using such info to tar all skeptics of AGW with the Dominionist/Creationist brush, not because I don't believe Imhofe might have Dominionist connections.
Did it ever occur to you that Imhofe might have other motives for opposing AGW, like the negative impact on our economy of "anti-global warming" measures that have nothing to do with his religious beliefs?

And now, I'm going to go out a increase my carbon footprint by taking a Sunday afternoon ride in my diesel Jeep.

And you are an example of one who has cherry picked only what he wants to hear. Look at what the CO2 atmosphere of Venus has done for it's weather.

455 debutaunt  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:48:12pm

re: #452 Colonel Panik

A panik exit.

456 rightwinger3  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:49:01pm

re: #454 LudwigVanQuixote

And you are an example of one who has cherry picked only what he wants to hear. Look at what the CO2 atmosphere of Venus has done for it's weather.

Ludwig, never mind that...look at all the trees and plants there.
/

457 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:49:51pm

Colonel Panik is getting on a lot of people's nerves.

458 lostlakehiker  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 3:57:26pm

re: #143 Hengineer

But at the same time, it would increase the possibility of farmland in Greenland, Northern Europe and the vast expanses of Russia that would otherwise be too cold and inhospitable to grow anything for food: there's a flip side to the coin.

Yes, there is a flip side. That's one of the many advantages of global warming. I couldn't list them all. I didn't list all the disadvantages either. Getting a good read on just how the pluses and minuses net out won't be easy. Getting a good read on how they'd net out at some hypothetical higher temperature, harder still.

And how expensive would it be to stem the rise of CO2? This depends on how efficiently and affordably we can produce wind and solar power, and on how efficient we can make our infrastructure. Can we improve on Edison's light bulb? Of course. We already have. CF bulbs last longer and use 1/3 the electricity, if that. But can we do better still? Yes. quantum dot light bulbs. Cool! It depends on how expensive coal really is. Do we factor in the thousands of lives lost in China every year in mine accidents? What about the costs to human health of the pollution that comes from burning the sulfur mixed into that coal? Do we take into account the geopolitical and military costs that swirl around the world's oil and natural gas supplies? (Almost everybody has either sun or wind or tide or geothermal possibilities).

What we do know is that if temperatures were to go up another 10 degrees (toward the high end of estimates), a lot of the Greenland ice cap would melt, sea levels would rise, a lot of Bangladesh rice fields would be flooded, New Orleans would be impossible to defend from storm surges that started with a 10 foot head start due to rising sea levels, and the natural storage and slow release function of snow and snowmelt for our water supply would have to be replaced by the construction of many more dams in California and elsewhere. If the costs include crop failures, then do we count the wars that follow famine like ravens follow wolf packs? It could get serious. Extra farmland in the far north will be limited in its productivity because it just doesn't get that much sun. Farms are solar energy collection technology, in the end.

459 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:06:06pm
460 Gus  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:10:15pm

Some of you might find this interesting. It's video blog between at blogginheadstv.

Phil Plait
Bad Astronomy, James Randi Educational Foundation
and
Carl Zimmer
carlzimmer.com, The Loom

Will the Internet save us from nonsense and superstition?
The odds you'll be killed by an asteroid
How cell phones and security cameras turn citizens into scientists
Have newspapers already lost out to bloggers?
The future for NASA
Big questions Phil hopes we'll answer soon

[Link: bloggingheads.tv...]

461 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:11:46pm

re: #459 roberth

I do really hope that you meant to put a sarc tab. There is only the science. The notion that there are "two sides" is a total fallacy. There is only one true answer. Science does not claim to have the complete answer yet, but please please do not make the foolish assumption that some other "side" exists.

462 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:12:11pm

re: #430 LudwigVanQuixote

Well said. I think one of the things that needs to be stressed is that accepting that unusually rapid warming is taking place and than there is likely a major anthropogenic factor doesn't automatically entail committing to extreme panic measures which would cause more problems than they solved.

463 Zimriel  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:13:43pm

re: #289 Proximate

I am a very strong supporter of the theory of evolution. I also support any other scientific theory which can actually be proven. Us skeptics are not Neo-Luddites.

I question why CO2 levels were 14 times higher during a well-documented Odovician ice age, if CAGW theories are correct.

One thing we DEFINITELY know about the Ordovician: the sun was cooler. The sun (and Earth) were colder than that during the pre-Ediacaran "Snowball Earth".

I'm wondering if they checked their models for methane and ChloroFluoroCarbons. Those are greenhouse gases to put CO2 to shame.

464 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:14:35pm

re: #462 Jimmah

Well said. I think one of the things that needs to be stressed is that accepting that unusually rapid warming is taking place and than there is likely a major anthropogenic factor doesn't automatically entail committing to extreme panic measures which would cause more problems than they solved.

Thank you and I agree. However, the flip side, that we should not do anything to clean up our act at all, that "there is nothing to see here, move along" is equally false and likely much more dangerous.

465 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:18:09pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

To tell the truth- I'm hesitant to call myself a skeptic anymore because creationists are latching onto AGW denial. Such is their level of denial of reality that I don't want to be connected to them in any way.

Shar, they can latch all they want. I'll still fight both, even if it means a two-front action for me. Been attacked from both sides for too long now. I'll not let either side dictate to me what I should do, and what I should defend/attack. As far as I am concerned, ID and AGW can both rot in the deepest pits of discarded lies and junk science.

466 Claire  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:23:51pm

Why can't we just concentrate on going Nuclear? We get clean air, we get to screw the Saudi's, we get cheap unlimited power- we don't have to downsize our lives and live like college students- it's all good, even if AGW isn't real. And if it IS real, changing the light bulbs in the house, or taking one less trip to the grocery store per week, or even getting 20% of electricity generated by alternative methods in the next 20 years, etc. (which is going to cost bizillions and is about as far as anybody has proposed) isn't going to do jack-squat to reverse the trend, especially with the rest of the world spewing as much CO2 as they want. It's just feel-good wankery that would slightly delay the inevitable.

And would not spending $ on Nuclear act as "stimulus" more than just about any other infrastructure? I really hope the Hyperion reactor takes off.

467 Aviator  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:26:40pm

re: #398 buzzsawmonkey

I have both flipformac and what I thought was an updated Quiktime; sometimes, however, they just decide that they aren't going to do what they're supposed to do.

Get the Perian plug in for Quicktime.
[Link: www.perian.org...]

468 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:29:20pm

re: #465 Honorary Yooper

Shar, they can latch all they want. I'll still fight both, even if it means a two-front action for me. Been attacked from both sides for too long now. I'll not let either side dictate to me what I should do, and what I should defend/attack. As far as I am concerned, ID and AGW can both rot in the deepest pits of discarded lies and junk science.

`You can dispute the science on what to do about climate change and how big a effect man has on it, but to ignore it's happening in the face of all the science, just gives the ID'ers a excuse to do the same for their cause.
I'm glad to see a few more on the right start to consider the possibility that he science might be valid, even if Gore is likely over hyping the threat.

469 Irish Rose  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:32:55pm

re: #451 LudwigVanQuixote

Charles, with the greatest respect, Bill Amos does not matter. What matters is that you are standing up for some semblance of sanity. I imagine that you must be feeling completely betrayed by a lot of people.

They suck.

Please, remember that when you point to elephants in a room, extreme people will respond badly. You can do nothing about that. Just keep pointing at the elephants and F* them.

Well said.

470 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:33:40pm

````````````````re: #466 Claire

Why can't we just concentrate on going Nuclear? We get clean air, we get to screw the Saudi's, we get cheap unlimited power- we don't have to downsize our lives and live like college students- it's all good, even if AGW isn't real. And if it IS real, changing the light bulbs in the house, or taking one less trip to the grocery store per week, or even getting 20% of electricity generated by alternative methods in the next 20 years, etc. (which is going to cost bizillions and is about as far as anybody has proposed) isn't going to do jack-squat to reverse the trend, especially with the rest of the world spewing as much CO2 as they want. It's just feel-good wankery that would slightly delay the inevitable.

And would not spending $ on Nuclear act as "stimulus" more than just about any other infrastructure? I really hope the Hyperion reactor takes off.

I agree, but a combination of nukes and economically reasonable conservation would make even better sense. i.e. saving money on lighting and heat, also lowers the carbon footprint.

471 Kenneth  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:34:05pm

re: #424 opnion

That's right, but I think it also had to do with the weirdness of John Lennon as well. As a couple ., John & Yoko were weird. She was a Dominatrix.

You say that like it was a bad thing,,,

472 Kenneth  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:38:41pm

re: #468 avanti

The science is very far from clear,

We don't know if the earth is warming
We don't know what causes climate change
We don't know if we can or should do anything about it,,,

So lets spend billions of dollars and distort our economy to "correct" a problem we don't understand.

473 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:40:25pm

Dear Lizards, I gotta go...

Not to brag, but a very beautiful woman wants to have dinner with me.

:)

Have a great evening!

474 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:42:19pm

re: #472 Kenneth

The science is very far from clear,

We don't know if the earth is warming
We don't know what causes climate change
We don't know if we can or should do anything about it,,,

So lets spend billions of dollars and distort our economy to "correct" a problem we don't understand.

Nonesense!

We do know it is warming.

We do know many factors that are causing it. We are one of them.

We do not have an easy answer.

475 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:42:34pm

re: #471 Kenneth

You say that like it was a bad thing,,,

lol

476 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:50:28pm

re: #472 Kenneth

The science is very far from clear,

We don't know if the earth is warming
We don't know what causes climate change
We don't know if we can or should do anything about it,,,

So lets spend billions of dollars and distort our economy to "correct" a problem we don't understand.

Actually:

We do know the earth is warming, the data is clear.
We do know that C02 is a greenhouse gas, and know it's been increasing since the industrial revolution.
We do know that reducing CO2 will help lower the temperature.

We don't know if the additional Co2 is 20 % or 50% of the cause or whatever and I agree, the cost and effectiveness of a solution is open for debate. I do think just slamming all the science as a political conspiracy without a fair look is wrong headed.

477 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:54:32pm
478 Sosigado  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:55:42pm

Oh, boy. Here we go again.

479 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 4:59:39pm

Looks like 'roberth' traded his life on LGF, which seemed to consist largely of downdinging spin-off links, for the ecstacy of the one-off tantrum post.

480 Claire  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:02:06pm

re: #470 avanti

Yes, conservation lowers the carbon footprint, but with an increasing world population, and growing middle classes using more and more energy, reducing our usage by 10% is a literal drop in the bucket compared to the entire world's output, it just slows the increase, it doesn't actually decrease the total amount going into the atmosphere. And it's a major pain to boot- AND it makes people feel warm and fuzzy like they are actually "saving" the earth, when they may in fact be delaying catastophe just a tad, certainly, not reversing anything. (If it's really happening. IIRH)

481 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:03:16pm

re: #464 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you and I agree. However, the flip side, that we should not do anything to clean up our act at all, that "there is nothing to see here, move along" is equally false and likely much more dangerous.

I agree with that too. I think there are many good reasons for taking action to get off our dependency on fossil fuels, to become less wasteful, more efficient, develop new cleaner forms of energy. Even without a possible environmental crisis looming, these things would be a good idea.

482 rightwinger3  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:05:32pm

re: #479 Jimmah

Looks like 'roberth' traded his life on LGF, which seemed to consist largely of downdinging spin-off links, for the ecstacy of the one-off tantrum post.

Charles needs to make it easier for them. A little box to check that says something on the order of "click here to commit LGF suicide".

483 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:05:55pm
484 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:08:52pm

re: #468 avanti

`You can dispute the science on what to do about climate change and how big a effect man has on it, but to ignore it's happening in the face of all the science, just gives the ID'ers a excuse to do the same for their cause.
I'm glad to see a few more on the right start to consider the possibility that he science might be valid, even if Gore is likely over hyping the threat.

Problem is, the Earth hasn't been warming for the past 7-8 years or so, even with increased CO2 emissions. The threat is probably nothing, and is entirely hype. I say this not as a person on the right or the left, but as someone who has studied the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Climate Optimum extensively, as well as a ton of historical geology which is dependent on paleoclimatology. Rises in CO2 always come after warming in the geologic record, something which Al Gore and James Hansen conveniently ignore in their hysteria.

In addition, changes in vulcanism, the orbit of the Earth, and solar activity have a far greater effect on the Earth's climate than man. The AGW promoters make the same mistake of puting humans at the center of the universe and making humans the masters of their environment that the YECs do. It's really the same hubris. The Earth has warmed and cooled for four and a half billion years before we came along. Much cooler (snowball Earth for example) times, and much warmer (the Mesozoic for example) times than we have currently. In fact, we are nearer the cooler end of the spectrum than the warmer end of it. The Earth was sustained far warmer global temperatures and higher levels of historical CO2 than we have currently with no ill effect on life. By making humans fully responsible for any and all climate change, Gore and Hansen are effectively saying we are greater than this Earth, and are the same end-all-be-all of existence that the YECs claim we are.

Anyway, increased CO2 is hardly a detriment to life on Earth. In fact, it is great if you are a plant. However, I'm far more worried that the start of the current solar cycle has yet to see any sunspots. We have had periods without sunspots in the past, historical, written past, where the climate became very cool as a result. The Maunder and Dalton Minimums come to mind, during the Little Ice Age.

That said, we as humans do definitely have an effect on Earth, it's a major debate as to how much. We definitely terraform the surface, and release chemicals into water supplies, but as for the atmosphere as a whole, it is very debatable.

485 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:09:36pm
486 SirRobert  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:09:39pm

As a biochemist for the last 20 yrs, climate data is not my specialty. Scientific research, design and interpretation is, however, somewhat in my domain.

2 topics bounced around here lately:

Creationism: There simply is no data at this time to support this theory as a scientific dogma. There is lots of flowing text trying to put creationism into the realm of science academia, but strip away all the text and what do you have? THERE IS NO SUPPORTING DATA. If someone comes up with any piece of reproducible data, I may change my mind, but have not seen anything credible as of yet.

Global Warming: This is complex. There is surface temperature data showing an increase of temperatures in urban centers. Anybody with a thermometer can create this. I live 20 miles outside a metro area in the woods. It is always 2-3 degrees cooler. Trees convert solar energy to stable reduced hydrocarbons. Remove the trees and pave the surface with 2 ft of concrete, re-bar and blacktop and you have a heat-sink. Remove the trees and you have less transpiration of water vapor into the air and you create changes in precipitation patterns. So, yes, the temperature increases we have measured in the last hundred years can be attributed to a combination of 1) cyclic activity, 2) sun activity, and 3) man-made activity.

However, I have yet to see any causative data correlating CO2 to global warming. Doesn't mean it is not there, just no causative data. The CO2 and Temp. levels trend together. The computer models explain the past, but as of yet, I have not seen a single set of data to support cause and effect from a greenhouse gas perspective. Show me some data and I may change my mind.

I do not currently see carbon emissions correlated to any temperature changes.

Like creationism, global warming theory has a HUGE data problem. SHOW ME THE DATA.

(btw, my house is insulated R-75, may car gets 35mpg, and I just bought a 82mpg motorcycle, choose to use CF bulbs in most (not all) outlets, did not turn on my A/C last summer. As a conservative, I do not like wasting resources. As a conservative, I change my behavior to save ME MONEY.

487 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:11:30pm

re: #466 Claire

According to a Forbes Magazine editor, there is one man stopping us from going nuclear, and his name is Harry Reid.

488 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:11:40pm

re: #482 rightwinger3

Heh. They could choose from a drop-down menu what they'd like their final immediately deleted tantrum-post to be: "You suck Charles" "I will pray for you, atheist" and so on.

489 SirRobert  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:12:54pm

For those who think CO2 is a pollutant--what is the largest contributing greenhouse gas? Methane and CO2 get a lot of talk, but there is another elephant in the room. Any guesses?

490 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:13:32pm

re: #483 Iron Fist

Know? Suspect is a better term. We don't know whether rising CO2 increases global temperature, or rising global temperature causes rising global CO2 levels. If I'm not mistaken, the CO2 levels lag the temperature increase. There may not be enough data to say that the causal factor is rising temperatures, or vice versa. All we know right now are that there appears to be a corellation between the two. It is entirely possible that there is no causal relationship between the two at all.

Correllation is not causation. Not by any stretch of the imagination, but that is a fallicy that the Global Warmists fall into repeatedly. They are looking for simplistic answers to extremely complex questions.

What, BTW, is your stance on nuclear power generation?


I know of no real science that disputes Co2 is a greenhouse gas, and I'm very pro nuke.

491 SirRobert  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:15:13pm

95% of the greenhouse gas effect is caused by water.

492 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:16:25pm

re: #489 SirRobert

That's not as clever as you think it is.

493 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:16:33pm

re: #484 Honorary Yooper

Problem is, the Earth hasn't been warming for the past 7-8 years or so, even with increased CO2 emissions.

Guys - this "there has been no global warming since 1998" thing is bullshit.

Check it out:

[Link: gristmill.grist.org...]

Temperature is spiky - 1998 was a big spike; the trend is still clearly upward.

494 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:16:57pm

re: #489 SirRobert

For those who think CO2 is a pollutant--what is the largest contributing greenhouse gas? Methane and CO2 get a lot of talk, but there is another elephant in the room. Any guesses?

I'll take "water vapor" for $1,000, Alex.

495 rightwinger3  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:18:22pm

re: #488 Jimmah

Heh. They could choose from a drop-down menu what they'd like their final immediately deleted tantrum-post to be: "You suck Charles" "I will pray for you, atheist" and so on.

ROFL. We need to forward a recommendation to Charles.

496 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:19:00pm

re: #491 SirRobert

95% of the greenhouse gas effect is caused by water.

Water vapor is a greenhouse gas, but like variations in solar output it has not changed enough since the industrial revolution to account for climate change.

497 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:21:12pm

re: #493 Jimmah

I have trouble taking a site that promotes the idea that polar bears are being detrimentally affected by changing ice flow patterns in the Arctic seriously. Gristmill is hardly a neutral blog in the debate.

498 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:21:19pm

re: #496 avanti

Nice discussion here. I'm simply flabbergasted that so many assume climatologists have no idea about water vapor...

499 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:21:48pm

re: #498 Basho

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

500 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:25:26pm

re: #486 SirRobert

501 [deleted]  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:27:00pm
502 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:27:25pm

re: #497 Honorary Yooper

Fine. The exact same thing is published on scienceblogs:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

503 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:28:30pm

re: #496 avanti

Water vapor is a greenhouse gas, but like variations in solar output it has not changed enough since the industrial revolution to account for climate change.

Bzzzt. Solar variation has changed quite significantly over the past 150 years (since serious data collection began). Here's a graph of solar variation with a lot of other information about solar cycles. Take note of the low spots on the graph of solar activity, Number of Sunspots vs. Year closer to the bottom of the page. Take note of the two major minimums, the Maunder and Dalton Minimums. Also note temperature-wise how we came out of the Little Ice Age around 1850 or so. It does correspond with the Industrial Revolution, but it also corresponds with a major increase in solar activity.

So, Avanti, I have some homework for you. Find out the CO2 levels in the Medieval Climatic Optimum, and find the cause for the warming. Obviously, it was not SUVs, unless they took those to the Crusades as well.

504 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:28:48pm

re: #501 Iron Fist

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

505 LieSeeker  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:31:56pm
“observed global sea ice area, defined here as a sum of N. Hemisphere and S. Hemisphere sea ice areas, is near or slightly lower than those observed in late 1979.” But then the scientists also explained that climate models predict a decline in Arctic ice, but are less certain about Antarctica, with some even suggesting an increase–making measurements of global sea ice not terribly relevant to the question of climate change. The Post ignored that part.)

So the scientists admit that the January article's number was correct (end of 1979 or 1980 - 2007 or 2008 could have been used). The scientists then use the error-filled climate computer simulations to try to claim that the real measurements are not relevant to reality. In just what way is a change in where sea is is being formed not change?

506 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:34:37pm

re: #497 Honorary Yooper

I have trouble taking a site that promotes the idea that polar bears are being detrimentally affected by changing ice flow patterns in the Arctic seriously. Gristmill is hardly a neutral blog in the debate.

I'm not up to date on polar bear issues at the moment, but I don't see anything inherently ludicrous about that idea. Anyway, here is the same temperature data in it's original context. From the Climatic Research Unit:

[Link: www.cru.uea.ac.uk...]

507 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:34:39pm

re: #503 Honorary Yooper

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

508 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:38:29pm

re: #503 Honorary Yooper

Bzzzt. Solar variation has changed quite significantly over the past 150 years (since serious data collection began). Here's a graph of solar variation with a lot of other information about solar cycles. Take note of the low spots on the graph of solar activity, Number of Sunspots vs. Year closer to the bottom of the page. Take note of the two major minimums, the Maunder and Dalton Minimums. Also note temperature-wise how we came out of the Little Ice Age around 1850 or so. It does correspond with the Industrial Revolution, but it also corresponds with a major increase in solar activity.

So, Avanti, I have some homework for you. Find out the CO2 levels in the Medieval Climatic Optimum, and find the cause for the warming. Obviously, it was not SUVs, unless they took those to the Crusades as well.


I'll do the homework for you:

The earth did not warm during the Medieval Climatic Optimum, but Europe and other area's did. Core samples and the rest show no world wide `warming during that period.


The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) states that the "idea of a global or hemispheric "Medieval Warm Period" that was warmer than today however, has turned out to be incorrect" and that what those "records that do exist show is that there was no multi-century periods when global or hemispheric temperatures were the same or warmer than in the 20th century".
Indeed, global temperature records taken from ice cores, tree rings, and lake deposits, have shown that, taken globally, the Earth actually averaged slightly cooler (by 0.03 degrees Celsius) during the 'Medieval Warm Period' than in the early- and mid-20th century.

509 Claire  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:38:45pm

I'm really glad we are talking about this topic.

It seems like everything I read or hear about this has an agenda pro or con, and it gets confusing. Like, yes, CO2 is a greenhouse gas. That's a fact we can physically measure. But the relative degree of importance and the influence of positive and negative feedback effects are what I'm not clear on yet at all.

To hear somebody say "we are in a cooling trend" without qualifiers about the length of this trend (5 years, 50 years, 500 years, 5000 years) is almost meaningless. We can be in a short warming trend within a medium cooling trend within a longer warming trend, within a huge cooling trend, within a gargantuan warming trend. Where exactly are we?

510 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:40:57pm

re: #506 Jimmah

You can't trust them, according to the site's press page climate scientists at UEA won a Silver Medal for their debut garden at the Royal Chelsea Flower Show.

Obviously these are nothing but Clintonistas working with the Goracle.

511 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:42:19pm

re: #498 Basho

Nice discussion here. I'm simply flabbergasted that so many assume climatologists have no idea about water vapor...

They do, but the only greenhouse gas that has changed over the last 1000 years or so, is co2.

water vapor

512 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:45:09pm

re: #502 Basho

Fine. The exact same thing is published on scienceblogs:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Is that based off surface temperatures? If so, they are notoriously unreliable, and if located at airports in cities, will show a warming trend due to the heat island effect of cities. Let's alos not forget that we are using two different sets of temperature data: one from thermometers (since 1850) and one not (dendrochronology, ice cores, etc). And that the thermometer readings have been taken for the most part in urbanizing areas (see above). Here's www.npr.org...]>an interesting article from a non-conservative source (NPR) that asks an interesting question.

Specifically, here's the crux of the issue:

But if the aquatic robots are actually telling the right story, that raises a new question: Where is the extra heat all going?

Kevin Trenberth at the National Center for Atmospheric Research says it's probably going back out into space. The Earth has a number of natural thermostats, including clouds, which can either trap heat and turn up the temperature, or reflect sunlight and help cool the planet.

That can't be directly measured at the moment, however.

In other words, we have no idea how much heat may be generated by human sources because we can't find it all due to the limitations in our measuring equipment.

I have serious doubts about things when someone races into the room and shouts that we have an emergency, and we have to do x, y, and z to prevent it, and the one shouting about it (Al Gore in this case) profits from us doing x, y, and z.

513 Claire  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:46:16pm

re: #511 avanti

But if the earth is getting warmer, wouldn't more H2O be evaporating increasing vapor levels? Or do we then get more clouds and it goes back to some equilibrium point?

514 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:48:36pm

re: #509 Claire

I'm really glad we are talking about this topic.

It seems like everything I read or hear about this has an agenda pro or con, and it gets confusing. Like, yes, CO2 is a greenhouse gas. That's a fact we can physically measure. But the relative degree of importance and the influence of positive and negative feedback effects are what I'm not clear on yet at all.

To hear somebody say "we are in a cooling trend" without qualifiers about the length of this trend (5 years, 50 years, 500 years, 5000 years) is almost meaningless. We can be in a short warming trend within a medium cooling trend within a longer warming trend, within a huge cooling trend, within a gargantuan warming trend. Where exactly are we?

That's the main problem. We don't know exactly where we are, and to say that the science is settled, and that we are definitely heading in one direction or another and to sell it as an immediate emergency is disingenuous at best. Quite frankly, we suspect we are in an ice age interglacial period. When it ends, who knows? It began about 12,000 years ago with the end of the Younger Dryas (Avanti, do some research on it. Most of that one's effects were in the Northern Hemisphere as well).

515 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:49:01pm

re: #513 Claire

But if the earth is getting warmer, wouldn't more H2O be evaporating increasing vapor levels? Or do we then get more clouds and it goes back to some equilibrium point?

Yeah, from this site:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]
"If you artificially increase the level of H2O in the air, it rains out immediately (in terms of climate response times). Similarly, due to the abundance of ocean on the Earth's surface, if you somehow removed all the water from the air it would quickly be replaced through evaporation."

516 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:51:02pm

re: #514 Honorary Yooper

Quite frankly, we suspect we are in an ice age interglacial period. When it ends, who knows? It began about 12,000 years ago with the end of the Younger Dryas (Avanti, do some research on it. Most of that one's effects were in the Northern Hemisphere as well).

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

517 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:51:28pm

re: #510 Basho

LOL. I was told by someone else on the other AGW thread that 'realclimate' was off limits too. I have a feeling that anything associated with actual climate science is liable to be judged 'biased'.

518 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:52:08pm

re: #505 LieSeeker

One of the major problems is that the computer models can't even predict the current climate using older data. There are a lot of variables, many, many more than are accounted for in the climate computer models that affect climate.

519 avanti  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:52:48pm

re: #513 Claire

But if the earth is getting warmer, wouldn't more H2O be evaporating increasing vapor levels? Or do we then get more clouds and it goes back to some equilibrium point?

That is the feedback loop, more water vapor, increased temperatures, but more vapor making clouds and cooling taking place. One recent factor that is being considered is that pollution is restraining warming to a degree, and as we reduce fossil fuel use, the lack of pollution might allow more solar heating. It's a very difficult thing to model.

520 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:53:20pm

re: #483 Iron Fist


Correllation is not causation. Not by any stretch of the imagination, but that is a fallicy that the Global Warmists fall into repeatedly. They are looking for simplistic answers to extremely complex questions.

There has been a change in temperatures and any change would have a correlation with something that is not metaphysical. In this case there is no correlation with changes in the sun, so it would seem to be closer to home would it not?

The hypotheses that you call simplistic answers are not very simple at all if you read what the scientists write, as opposed to what the other side writes (EG It's just the water vapor, stupid!).

It is conceivable that the complex interactions/questions you describe will find a new level that will not mean the end of the world as we know it, but to pretend that people can't have a global impact on the planet, and then to dismiss it because they don't like some politician or other, is ridiculous.

521 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:55:00pm

re: #516 Basho

Your link includes the following: How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic

Here's the about page for him:

Coby is a software developer specializing in Artificial Intelligence applications. He has been blogging about climate change since January, 2006. A Few Things Ill Considered was initially hosted by Blogger and the early posts can still be seen there.

Coby's writings can also be found on Grist.org's blog, the Gristmill. Gristmill is also the host of his best known contribution to the climate debate, the "How To Talk to a Climate Skeptic Guide" (originally posted here).

How to Talk to a Climate Sceptic is also on Science Blogs.

In addition to blogging and earning a living in software, Coby Beck is an avid photographer. He is currently working on a fine art abstract photography project called "Painting with Water".

Again, more Gristmill.

522 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:55:45pm

re: #517 Jimmah

LOL. I was told by someone else on the other AGW thread that 'realclimate' was off limits too. I have a feeling that anything associated with actual climate science is liable to be judged 'biased'.

Yeah exactly. It must be embarrassing to realize that all talking points have been debunked long ago and that there really isn't anything left... I'm glad I found that site because it has everything, despite some of the responses being over 3 years old.

523 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:58:43pm

re: #483 Iron Fist

Correllation is not causation. Not by any stretch of the imagination, but that is a fallicy that the Global Warmists fall into repeatedly. They are looking for simplistic answers to extremely complex questions.

Correlation is not causation when there is no plausible link between two phenomenon.

If that were the case you could dismiss anything and everything.

524 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 5:59:39pm

re: #521 Honorary Yooper

Who cares? Scienceblogs finds it reliable. And facts are facts no matter where it is.

525 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:01:41pm

re: #512 Honorary Yooper

.......... and the one shouting about it (Al Gore in this case) profits from us doing x, y, and z.

May I suggest that we stop mentioning that guy's name anymore and focus on the dumb scientists he is using for his nefarious moneymaking ends.

/After all, most people already know that most scientists are godless atheists and they have come to terms with that, but they don't necessarily think they are in league with the devil, like that pretend Christian Al Gore is.

/

526 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:02:22pm

re: #512 Honorary Yooper

Is that based off surface temperatures? If so, they are notoriously unreliable, and if located at airports in cities, will show a warming trend due to the heat island effect of cities.

I think this point is way over used by the anti-AGW crowd. Climate scientists are not dumb, they know about things like this and take them into account when they are collecting and analyzing data. In "Environmental science 101", which I did some years ago now, one of the first experiments was about this heat island effect - as manifested in the difference between temperature readings taken near built up locations and open locations. It's one of the first things that is taught to anyone on the road to being a climate scientist.

527 Proximate  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:02:38pm

re: #463 Zimriel

Thanks for the link and sorry for the misspelling (Ordovician). Always run the spell checker one more time.

BTW, in my previous posts I used the initials CAGW and neglected to explain it: Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming. I don't dispute that humans have a minor effect on the atmosphere but apparently not much, since the wild predictions of CAGW advocates keep falling flat. I embrace non-catastrophic AGW theory and eschew the catastrophic fulminations of Dr. Hansen and his supporters... who are very influential on world governments.

A new Paul Ehrlich style doomsayer is born every minute it seems.

So... is there anyone on this thread who believes in a runaway greenhouse effect that will soon turn Earth into a twin of Venus? 90 atmospheres (versus our 1), 96.5% carbon (versus .0383%), and 900F? If so, why has that not happened before, when we know that Earth had CO2 levels 1,800% higher in the Cambrian era?

"Runaway greenhouse" is probably the best example of idiotic CAGW theories.

528 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:06:17pm

re: #524 Basho

Who cares? Scienceblogs finds it reliable. And facts are facts no matter where it is.

True, but at one time Aristotle was considered to be a major authority on darn near everything. We've since gathered more data with others such as Newton, Einstein, Darwin, Lyell, et.al. As we accumulate more data, we find more about what is really going on. The major problem here is not the data, but rather, it is the push to make a major crisis out of what may be nothing of the sort. I really resent that the AGW pushers like to attribute everything to AGW, including geologic processes that have nothing to do with surficial climate change what-so-ever. Or that, we get a hot summer, must be AGW; we get a cold winter, must be AGW. AGW becomes their catch-all for every freaking weather event.

529 Basho  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:06:24pm

re: #527 Proximate

CAGW seems like a helpful distinction from genuine AGW...

530 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:08:32pm

re: #529 Basho

CAGW seems like a helpful distinction from genuine AGW...

I agree. The debate here isn't whether humans have an effect (we do, just look at CFCs), it's how much.

531 Achilles Tang  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:11:55pm

re: #496 avanti

Water vapor is a greenhouse gas, but like variations in solar output it has not changed enough since the industrial revolution to account for climate change.

...and since water vapor has remained fairly constant for thousands of years, even though it may increase or decrease in response to temperature, there has to be a reason somewhere for a temperature increase and it would seem that water vapor follows it, not leads (causes) it. In the latter case, given the amount of water on the planet, one would expect a runaway feedback ending in a Venus atmosphere in no time if water was the cause.

So what else do we know is new to the atmosphere in recent times?

It is not just various gases, it is a reduced capacity of the planet to reabsorb them.

/ As to where that will eventually stabilize we don't know, and if we don't care about future generations we shouldn't bother to worry about it. (regardless of what is thought of Al Gore)

532 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 6:15:37pm

re: #528 Honorary Yooper

I just hope that you got the point about the 1998 spike, and how misleading and downright false the 'no warming since 1998' talking point is.

533 Pythagoras  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:40:49pm

re: #508 avanti

The earth did not warm during the Medieval Climatic Optimum, but Europe and other area's did. Core samples and the rest show no world wide `warming during that period.

I'm interested in seeing the references on this. I have read more than a few serious papers that say the opposite (though I heard about them from skeptics). My favorite is the 1979 paper by Wilson, Hendy & Reynolds, which was published in Nature.

534 z9z99  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 7:51:38pm

My thoughts:

1.) I would like to reduce the amount of man-made pollutants that are released into the atmosphere, just as a matter of principle. I would also prefer that industrial pollutants not be dumped into surface water or be allowed to seep into groundwater. I would like the environment to be as pristine as possible consistent with the realities of civilization. I think that the fastest, most reliable way of doing this is through nuclear fission.

2.) The controversies over arctic and antarctic ice illustrate how poorly we understand the dynamics of the climate. These are obviously surrogates for more pertinent quantities, and the fact that we have to resort to interpreting them the way a fortune-teller interprets bird entrails just highlights how poorly we understand the science.

3.) The climate is changing. That's what the climate does.

4.) I have read through most of the references here to Realclimate and NASA and Gristmill and am unpersuaded that there is a significant human component to climate change. I think there is definitely a human component to CO2 concentrations, but if these were as highly correlated with temperature as the Al Gores of the world suggest, there would be no need to pester polar bears or guess at how much ice is floating around. The fact that there is a controversy is itself evidence of how complex and poorly understood the workings of the climate are.

5.) There are a couple of points that I find particularly curious. First, that there is no runaway temperature, espcially as the evaporation rate of water responds so readily to temperature changes. There might be a negative feedback quantity in the system, such as changes in the earth's albedo as a function of atmospheric water vapor content, or some other factor reducing incipient radiation. I did read somewhere that the amount of solar radiation reaching the earth's surface declined by 4% betrween 1960 and 1990. This was probably due to decreased man-made particulate pollution, but who knows if there were not other factors as well. The other factor that stuck out to me is that the greenhouse gases already absorb more than 89% of the heat radiated away from teh earth's surface, i.e. they absorb all but about 40 W/M^2 out of 390 W/M^2. Thus, even if the albedo of the earth and the amount of solar radiation reaching the surface were to reamin constant as temperature changed, increasein gconcentrations of greenhouse gas would only have 40 W/M^2 of unabsorbed radiation to affect, and my hunch is that this would not be a linear relationship. I suspect that the amount of radiation absorbed as a function of concentration is a function of the form exp(CO2)/[1+exp(CO2)]. THis seems intuitive to me, since once all of the infrared radiation from the earth's surface is absorbed by "greenhouse gases," adding more gas will not not affect the amount of radiation absorbed. As CO2 is already suspected of contributing 9%-25% of the "greenhouse effect," despite its relatively low concentration in the atmosphere, I think that the slope of the absorbed radiation vs. CO2 concentration curve is flattening.

6.) When you factor in all the Milankovitch cycles, and sun spots and ocean salinization, and what we don't know about the CO2 pump this and that, I doubt that we can even suspect all of the variables that we would need to include in a workable model.

7.) That being the case, I am skeptical as to catastrophic climate change, in the global warming sense, but I think that just as a matter of planetary hygiene, it makes sense to limit the use of fossil fuels and the amount of deforestation. I think inadequate drinking water will become a crisis much more quickly that global warming.

535 FredWM  Sun, Feb 22, 2009 11:28:35pm

There is a new article on the American Thinker on this question:

Media Credibility, Not Ice Caps, In Meltdown
by Peter C Glover

"Eco-warriors and media hype aside, the fact is, as we head into 2009, that the world's ice mass has been expanding not contracting. Which will surprise evening news junkies fed a diet of polar bears floating about on ice floes and snow shelves falling into the oceans. But if a whole series of reports on ice growth in the Arctic, the Antarctic and among glaciers are right, then it is truth in the mainstream media (MSM) that's in meltdown not the polar ice caps..."

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

536 BartB  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 12:12:20am

1. For years I've been driving past a bank that has a sign showing the
time and temperature. In all that time, I've never seen the correct time
on that sign.
I set my watch to NIST, formerly NBS. I have a $20 clock at home that is
also synchronized to NIST.
2. If the bank's clock is wrong, I have no faith in their thermometer, either.
3. Over the last few hundred thousand years, our best estimates of temperature and CO2 display a correlation that shows that temperature
causes CO2, not the other way around.
4. As far as I know, there are no models that can correctly predict the past;
I don't believe they can predict the future, either.
5. The temperatures on both Venus and Mars have been increasing lately
at about the same percentage as on earth. There are no SUVs on either
of those planets. No people, either.
6. Greenland has that name for a reason that has nothing to do with a
massive ice sheet. Check the Swedish records.
7. Climate change is not the reason that AlGore and other politicians take
their positions. Money, power, and control are the reasons.
Algore has made Millions of dollars since he went on the climate
campaign. If he really cared, he would go home and shut up,
but he loves the adoring crowds.
8. Under the concept of the separation of Church and State, the
Church of Climate Change should not be allowed to lobby Congress.

537 JustAHouseWife  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 5:52:42am

re: #533 Pythagoras

I'm interested in seeing the references on this. I have read more than a few serious papers that say the opposite (though I heard about them from skeptics). My favorite is the 1979 paper by Wilson, Hendy & Reynolds, which was published in Nature.

#508 isn't doing homework but is giving you a mis-leading AGW spin talking points. The majority of the land masses on Earth are in the Northern Hemisphere, which he/she fails to mention and yet admits (Europe and other places) (gee like the North America?) warmed. Then goes on to say "The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) states"...so? Google "salamanders + Medieval warm period" and see what biology says.
"Core samples and the rest show no world wide `warming during that period." That's the same spin not much good homework. Again, most of the land mass on this planet is in the Northern Hemisphere. (look at a globe). Besides: Google stalagmites + the medieval warm period. Data from caves give scientist good clear untouched data.

Example:

Discussing: Lorrey, A., Williams, P., Salinger, J., Martin, T., Palmer, J., Fowler, A., Zhao, J.-X. and Neil, H. 2008. “Speleothem stable isotope records interpreted within a multi-proxy framework and implications for New Zealand palaeoclimate reconstruction”. Quaternary International 187: 52-75.

What was done

Two master speleothem (stalactite, stalagmite or flowstone cave deposit) delta18O records were developed for New Zealand’s eastern North Island (ENI) and western South Island (WSI) for the period 2000 BC to about AD 1660 and 1825, respectively. The WSI record is a composite chronology composed of data derived from four speleothems from Aurora, Calcite, Doubtful Xanadu and Waiau caves, while the ENI record is a composite history derived from three speleothems from Disbelief and Te Reinga caves.

What was learned

For both the ENI and WSI delta18O records master speleothem histories, their warmest periods fall within the AD 900-1100 time interval, which is also where the peak warmth of a large portion of the temperature records found in our Medieval Warm Period Project fall (see our Interactive Map and Time Domain Plot).

What it means

Not wanting to acknowledge that the earth was likely as warm as, or even warmer than, it is currently a thousand or so years ago (when the atmosphere’s CO2 concentration was much lower than it is today), the world’s climate alarmists have been loath to admit there was an MWP or Medieval Warm Period anywhere other than in countries surrounding the North Atlantic Ocean. Consequently, the seven independent speleothem records that produced the results reported by Lorrey et al. are of great importance to the ongoing global warming debate, as they greatly advance the thesis that the MWP was indeed a global phenomenon, and that there is thus nothing unusual, unnatural or unprecedented about earth’s current warmth, and that it therefore need not be attributed to the historical increase in the air’s CO2 content.

538 JustAHouseWife  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 5:58:58am

re: #85 Claire

I want to join!

539 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:12:56am
540 Proximate  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:55:16am

re: #530 Honorary Yooper

CAGW seems like a helpful distinction from genuine AGW...

I agree. The debate here isn't whether humans have an effect (we do, just look at CFCs), it's how much.

Thanks. What grinds me is that serious AGW researchers *never* criticize their over-the-top, doomsaying CAGW cousins... and by silence, they in effect assent. It's hard to take any of it seriously when there's so many unbelievable prognostications based on nothing more than an urge to stampede the masses with alarmism.

541 Basho  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 6:34:06pm

re: #539 Iron Fist

How exactly does adding more CO2 not make the Earth warmer?

Anti-AGW people are called deniers when they play denialist games. They do this when they say there is a grand conspiracy to silence them in academia. They do this when they say the motives of the climatologists are to bankrupt the US economy and blame humanity. They do this when they point the finger at the sun despite the fact that scientists have been looking at the sun and found that it is not to blame, and when shown this fact time and time again they still say it's the sun.

I've tried to point the facts out to you in a reasonable matter, by just posting links and not responding verbally, yet you're politicized on this issue beyond reason; which is ironic because you blame the scientific community of doing the same thing.

542 shane  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:31:48pm

Will shouldn't be an idiot, but neither should NSIDC. So if you look hard you find this. But lets look at the regular press page, shall we? The have made some serious errors and admit that they cover several years. Since this is 2009, this also covers 2007. The follow up by talking about a quality assurance. Well, thats what folks do, quality assurance on data. But quite a few folks do that prior to publishing a paper or using the results for political reasons. Secondly, I don't see them working to retract any statements they made using the faulty data. Thirdly, mark this data, save it. A year from now they will still be using the faulty data with no mention what so ever of corrections.

543 shane  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:35:16pm

Incase you think I'm overstating the fact, this article is in the current archive concerning the gross melting of the ice cap. Funny, no corrections concerning the Feb 19 article. Odd.

544 Proximate  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:40:55pm

Of course not, Shane. Those are VERY serious scientists... not to be moved by issues like facts or quality control.

545 Proximate  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:48:48pm

re: #543 shane

Just as Dan Rather was a VERY serious report not moved by shaky evidence...

546 Proximate  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:50:17pm

reporter... argh... spell checking does nothing when one mistypes just right...

547 shane  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 8:50:57pm

re 541 Basho;

Well, it exactly doesn't cause global warming because a link hasn't been made. How about that? I don't have to prove CO2 is causing global warming, they guys who say it is have to prove it. One of the reasons given for the supposed heating and green house gas effects is absobtion of Infrared energy. Well, just a little note: Infrared spectroscopy works on the basis that all materials absorb Infrard energy, if you find the right frequency you can use it to measure the quantities of that substance. CO2 absorbs at an extremely low energy. Since we know that nothing can convert energy perfectly, its a law not just a good idea, how does that rate when compared to radiative forcing by variances in the sun? But it would also beg the question, if CO2 is now 385 ppm vice say 300 ppm, what was displaced? Is the air thicker? nope. We have that measurement. When smog displaces air, the air can physically be measured as different. The aerosols, dust, heavy particluate will actually increase the specific heat of the air. CO2 has a specific heat that is lower than many of the other constituants of air including Nitrogen. So, since they make the assertion that CO2 is a green house gas, fine. Show me how. The math, the science and reasoning. I have read it. It doesn't hold water.

548 Basho  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:39:42pm

re: #547 shane

They have proven it. Only those far far far out in the fringes of the right deny it.


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