Texas School Board Creationists: Darwin Would Have Liked Us

Science • Views: 2,549

The latest jaw-dropping spin from the creationists on the Texas State Board of Education: Darwin would have wanted us to teach creationism.

Complete with classic out of context, deceptive Darwin quotes! They’re shameless.

Darwin himself would not have supported censorship of the scientific weaknesses of his own theory. Indeed he wrote a whole chapter in his book, On the Origin of Species, about the difficulties with his theory. Darwin said, “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.

Note the very next sentence in this quote from “On the Origin of Species,” chapter 6:

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case.

But Republican BOE member Terri Leo wasn’t satisfied with only one lie. Her post ends with another one:

As Charles Darwin so aptly stated in On the Origin of Species, “A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question.

The complete quote shows that Darwin was saying he didn’t have space to list all the facts that support the theory of evolution.

This Abstract, which I now publish, must necessarily be imperfect. I cannot here give references and authorities for my several statements; and I must trust to the reader reposing some confidence in my accuracy. No doubt errors will have crept in, though I hope I have always been cautious in trusting to good authorities alone. I can here give only the general conclusions at which I have arrived, with a few facts in illustration, but which, I hope, in most cases will suffice. No one can feel more sensible than I do of the necessity of hereafter publishing in detail all the facts, with references, on which my conclusions have been grounded; and I hope in a future work to do this. For I am well aware that scarcely a single point is discussed in this volume on which facts cannot be adduced, often apparently leading to conclusions directly opposite to those at which I have arrived. A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question; and this cannot possibly be here done.

Utterly shameless.

Also see

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312 comments
1 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:17:31pm

Words fail me.

2 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:19:04pm

Darwin would have liked them because he had a self hatred thing going. It all goes with the "being a Nazi before there were Nazis" baggage.

/ So did God design Darwin?

3 gmsc  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:19:05pm

re: #1 CynicalConservative

Words fail me.

Words fail the creationists.

4 Cobdenite  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:19:20pm

Good old quote mining. The professional standard in modern sophistry and deception. The level of dishonesty here is clearly above any kind of pandering.

5 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:20:03pm

re: #3 gmsc

Words fail the creationists.

Ahhhhgggghhhhh, upstaged in the first 10.

Well said.

6 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:20:05pm

Theres gold in tham thar quotes !

7 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:20:24pm

It's quite simple- there is no other scientific theory with any empirically supported data that refutes evolution.

8 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:22:03pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

It's quite simple- there is no other scientific theory with any empirically supported data that refutes evolution.

Does Xenu know this?

9 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:22:14pm

re: #3 gmsc

Words fail the creationists.

Creationists = FAIL

10 Clemente  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:22:44pm

New threadage! Thank goodness, now we can move past the controversial Kindle debate, and on to topics more conducive to rational, level-headed discussion. Whew!

Popcorn, anyone?

11 Sharmuta  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:23:14pm
Darwin himself would not have supported censorship of the scientific weaknesses of his own theory.

The problem with this is that, where there are gaps in knowledge in the theory, real scientists use real science to figure out the scientific answer. Gaps in scientific knowledge in any theory or field are not an open invitation to invoke God.

12 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:23:18pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

There's not even an alternative, competing theory. It's like refuting the theory of gravity. Legitimate scientists accept the theory of evolution to be correct. 150 years of evidence, scientifically tested and peer reviewed.

13 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:23:23pm

It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Every time you see a creationist use a quote from Darwin or almost any other scientist, just Google the quote. You'll be amazed.

They're lying for Jesus.

14 Dianna  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:25:13pm

Goodnight!

15 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:25:56pm

re: #10 Clemente

New threadage! Thank goodness, now we can move past the controversial Kindle debate, and on to topics more conducive to rational, level-headed discussion. Whew!

Popcorn, anyone?

Oh, I dunno, may be a pending meltdown downthread....

16 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:26:11pm

re: #13 Charles

It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Every time you see a creationist use a quote from Darwin or almost any other scientist, just Google the quote. You'll be amazed.

They're lying for Jesus.

I thought there was some lil paragraph in the Old Testament (which is what they base that New Book on) which goes something like ...

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

But lying for a cause .. heck thats kinda ok. Skewed values .. eh?

17 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:26:24pm

re: #13 Charles

It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Every time you see a creationist use a quote from Darwin or almost any other scientist, just Google the quote. You'll be amazed.

They're lying for Jesus.

And won't they be surprised when they finally get to meet Him? Jesus doesn't like people lying to push their agenda.

18 brandon13  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:26:42pm

I await the meltdowns.

19 Scion9  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:26:43pm

Even if they were right; the theory is beyond Darwin now. The scientific community doesn't look back to the wishes of past scientists as if they were prophets.

20 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:26:46pm

re: #15 CynicalConservative

Oh, I dunno, may be a pending meltdown downthread....

Strike "pending"....

21 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:26:56pm

re: #13 Charles

It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Every time you see a creationist use a quote from Darwin or almost any other scientist, just Google the quote. You'll be amazed.

They're lying for Jesus.

Jesus told me to lie!
Your soul depends on getting you saved by hook or by crook!
The Bible tells me so!

////////////////////////////////////

*bangs head on desk*

22 jaunte  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:27:10pm

I'm a member of the Texas Homeschool Coalition, so I received a link to this in my email this morning. I also had a corresponding alert from the Texas Freedom Network:
[Link: tfnblog.wordpress.com...]

23 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:28:46pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

And won't they be surprised when they finally get to meet Him? Jesus doesn't like people lying to push their agenda.

It's another hole in the rationale. Why do you have to lie to get people to believe you? Shouldn't these people, being good upstanding Christians, want the weight of the truth to carry them through?

24 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:29:29pm

Q: How many creationists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A: 3. One to try and use a wedge to get the old one out, another to accuse anyone who criticizes the wedge strategy of atheism, and a third to explain that God designed the world to be dark.

25 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:30:56pm
26 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:31:13pm
27 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:31:38pm

re: #22 jaunte

I'm a member of the Texas Homeschool Coalition, so I received a link to this in my email this morning. I also had a corresponding alert from the Texas Freedom Network:
[Link: tfnblog.wordpress.com...]

Thank you for the link. It has one of the Creationist School Board Members doing exactly what Charles says they do: Lying for Jesus.

Terri Leo's screed = FAIL

28 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:31:57pm

I'm finished warning people not to post whining comments about the creationism threads. Now I'm just going to block their accounts.

29 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:32:21pm

Wow, #25 blocked on first comment.

30 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:32:24pm

re: #23 ConservatismNow!

It's another hole in the rationale. Why do you have to lie to get people to believe you? Shouldn't these people, being good upstanding Christians, want the weight of the truth to carry them through?

Yep. Two things.
Truth, and free will.

I tell you the truth, as I see it as a Christian. I also live that truth. So you can see it in action. Walk the talk.

You get to make up our own mind.

I've done my part by telling you and showing you. It's not my place to yell and scream and say you're going to hell.

31 jaunte  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:32:31pm

From the letter:

"Because education is truly a vehicle to broaden horizons and enhance thinking, varying scientific viewpoints should be welcome as part of the school experience. In the words of law professor David DeWolf, "By presenting this scientific controversy realistically, students will learn how to evaluate competing interpretations in light of evidence -- a skill they will need as citizens, whether they choose careers in science or in other fields."

David Dewolf is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute.

32 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:32:48pm

That was fast. 'spec' is our first meltdown at #25.

33 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:33:06pm

re: #31 jaunte

From the letter:

David Dewolf is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute.

Of course.

34 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:33:27pm

With the positions of the two parties, it is

Marxists on my left
Creationists on my right
Here I am
Stuck in the middle with who?

35 jaunte  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:33:42pm

re: #33 Charles

And of course the DI goes unmentioned by Terri Leo.

36 Timbre  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:33:46pm

I wish I could say what I know from my experiences, but it would only get me in trouble. As a lifelong Texan, I can agree with Charles-- "They have no shame."

37 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:34:04pm

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

That was fast. 'spec' is our first meltdown at #25.

Yeah, registered for over a year, spew's on first comment. Gotta wonder why some of the people bother.

38 Racer X  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:34:10pm
39 Rich H  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:35:15pm

re: #13 Charles

"They're lying for Jesus."

Isn't there a Judeo-Christian rule against that?

40 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:35:32pm

I do apologise to anyone for being re: #37 CynicalConservative

Yeah, registered for over a year, spew's on first comment. Gotta wonder why some of the people bother.

If you are going to make stupid comments .. heck .. you might as well erupt in your first comment .. blow up like Etna .. and die down like Krakatoa ..

That way .. we can remember you like Pompeii.

41 Macker  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:35:40pm

It took #25 over a year to post its first comment...and Charles blocks it.
Wow!

42 swamprat  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:35:54pm

re: #26 swamprat

Gahhhhh! Wrong clip!


this one...From 2:22


43 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:36:50pm

re: #40 Buster Bunny

I do apologise to anyone for being

If you are going to make stupid comments .. heck .. you might as well erupt in your first comment .. blow up like Etna .. and die down like Krakatoa ..

That way .. we can remember you like Pompeii.

Good point, I like your style.

44 Macker  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:36:57pm

re: #40 Buster Bunny

I do apologise to anyone for being

If you are going to make stupid comments .. heck .. you might as well erupt in your first comment .. blow up like Etna .. and die down like Krakatoa ..

That way .. we can remember you like Pompeii.

Ah, so the shock wave can circle the earth a dozen times or so. Kinda like Tsar Bomba!

45 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:37:27pm

From the Terri Leo screed, a classic quote mining:

As Charles Darwin so aptly stated in On the Origin of Species, "A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question."

The problem with this line is of course that the ID crowd puts forth no facts, just distortions and dishonesty.

46 swamprat  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:38:02pm

Charles, If you would delete my 26. I would be most grateful. It is just out of place.

47 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:38:23pm

re: #28 Charles

I'm finished warning people not to post whining comments about the creationism threads. Now I'm just going to block their accounts.

Hatemail from banned clown in 3... 2... 1...?

48 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:38:27pm

I've been trying to understand what is driving this concerted push into the classroom. I'm pretty sure for those on the forefront it is all about the money. Seems to be a whole tidy little industry being built on this advocacy. From creation museums to books to PAC's flush with dough from the faithful.

Seems that there is a serious profit to be made in stupid and evidently no end to this vital resource.

49 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:38:58pm

re: #39 Rich H

"They're lying for Jesus."

Isn't there a Judeo-Christian rule against that?

Yes; I thought it was Muslims who had religious rules for lying to unbelievers.
Creationist taqqiya.

50 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:39:05pm

re: #30 jcm

Free will is a beautiful thing. Interesting fact: it was originally an idea formed by Plato. It lost favor until the early 1400s when Greek ideas were revived by the civic humanists of the Italian academies. It was there that free will and Christianity were merged and it was a big theme in early Renaissance art. Boticelli's The Birth of Venus is a good example of that. The idea was that God created free will so that man could choose whether or not to love God. A man who willingly chooses to love God raises himself above the beasts of the land to become closer to God.

51 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:39:16pm

re: #44 Macker

Ah, so the shock wave can circle the earth a dozen times or so. Kinda like Tsar Bomba!

More along the lines of .. Etna goes off every once in a while .. produces heaps of smoke .. and destroyed pompeii. Krakatoa blew up big and left almost nothing.

But all that was left of people in Pompeii was usually .. empty shells.

Purely an apt metaphor.

52 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:41:29pm

re: #50 ConservatismNow!

Free will is a beautiful thing. Interesting fact: it was originally an idea formed by Plato. It lost favor until the early 1400s when Greek ideas were revived by the civic humanists of the Italian academies. It was there that free will and Christianity were merged and it was a big theme in early Renaissance art. Boticelli's The Birth of Venus is a good example of that. The idea was that God created free will so that man could choose whether or not to love God. A man who willingly chooses to love God raises himself above the beasts of the land to become closer to God.

Ironic isn't. They, the ID crowd, chose freely, but doesn't what to extend the right to others.

53 swamprat  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:41:42pm

re: #46 swamprat

Thank you kindly!

54 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:41:54pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

From the Terri Leo screed, a classic quote mining:

As Charles Darwin so aptly stated in On the Origin of Species, "A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question."

The problem with this line is of course that the ID crowd puts forth no facts, just distortions and dishonesty.

The complete quote:

This Abstract, which I now publish, must necessarily be imperfect. I cannot here give references and authorities for my several statements; and I must trust to the reader reposing some confidence in my accuracy. No doubt errors will have crept in, though I hope I have always been cautious in trusting to good authorities alone. I can here give only the general conclusions at which I have arrived, with a few facts in illustration, but which, I hope, in most cases will suffice. No one can feel more sensible than I do of the necessity of hereafter publishing in detail all the facts, with references, on which my conclusions have been grounded; and I hope in a future work to do this. For I am well aware that scarcely a single point is discussed in this volume on which facts cannot be adduced, often apparently leading to conclusions directly opposite to those at which I have arrived. A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question; and this cannot possibly be here done.

Darwin is saying he can't list all the facts that support the theory of evolution.

55 wanglese  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:42:07pm

re: #22 jaunte I like the 9.14 quote on that site, by Charles. Is that *our* Charles?

56 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:43:11pm

Charles, what is it about some people that they feel they HAVE to post whether they are interested in the thread or not, or even if they want to leave LGF completely? One asked for a "delete account" button, like just not posting wasn't good enough.

Another lizard suggested it is like having the One Ring in your pocket.

Maybe some banned lizard needs to set up a "Lizards anonymous" 12-step program or something.

57 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:43:52pm

re: #54 Charles

Darwin is saying he can't list all the facts that support the theory of evolution.

Ahaaaa! Yet another weakness!

/

58 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:44:20pm

re: #54 Charles

Darwin is saying he can't list all the facts that support the theory of evolution.

Thank you, sir. The full quote indeed proves Terri Leo to be a liar beyond all doubt, not that I had any.

59 jaunte  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:44:48pm

I see here that David DeWolf responded to the Dover decision:

Relying almost exclusively on the evidence presented by the ACLU's witnesses, Jones held that ID is not science. He claimed that the witnesses established that ID relies on "supernatural" explanations, that it was untestable, and that it had produced no peer-reviewed literature. Each of these claims was carefully rebutted by the briefs submitted by amici, including the Discovery Institute and a large group of scientists who urged the court not to try to settle the question of the definition of science and the scientific status of intelligent design.
[Link: www.evolutionnews.org...]


To check his claim about the amici briefs, you have to buy their book for $14.95.

60 Rich H  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:46:12pm

I don't understand this obsession Creationists have with Darwin.

Evolution was a compelling explanation of taxonomic patterns in life long before Darwin. It explains why all described species could be arranged in a tree of life based on similarity. Creationism doesn't begin to explain this elaborate pattern, which encompasses millions of empirical observations.

Darwin added the "how" of evolution. But even without mentioning him, there is no competing theory that comes close to explaining what evolution explains.

So why is Darwin being used as such a straw man?

61 Throbert McGee  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:47:10pm

re: #40 Buster Bunny

If you are going to make stupid comments .. heck .. you might as well erupt in your first comment .. blow up like Etna .. and die down like Krakatoa ..That way .. we can remember you like Pompeii.

Spock, quit being so damned vulcanologic!

62 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:47:16pm

re: #16 Buster Bunny

I thought there was some lil paragraph in the Old Testament (which is what they base that New Book on) which goes something like ...

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

But lying for a cause .. heck thats kinda ok. Skewed values .. eh?

That's actually different. Lying, for fun or profit or to advance a cause, is wrong. But it's not the vilest form of an already vile crime, perjury: perjury in order to frame somebody and get them punished for what they didn't do.

And so it's not on the top ten list of don't's.

63 Steffan  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:47:39pm

So tell us, Charles: What are they smoking, and why aren't they sharing?

If they truly believe this, they are fools.

If they think we believe them, they think we're fools.

Dishonesty of this sort is usually masked. To be as blatant as they are about it, there has to be some kind of a fix in.

NASA HQ is in Texas. You'd think they'd value science more than this.

64 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:47:45pm

re: #48 The Shadow Do

I've been trying to understand what is driving this concerted push into the classroom. I'm pretty sure for those on the forefront it is all about the money. Seems to be a whole tidy little industry being built on this advocacy. From creation museums to books to PAC's flush with dough from the faithful.

Seems that there is a serious profit to be made in stupid and evidently no end to this vital resource.

Conversely, there is little to no profit in defending the science. I don't know what to make of that.

65 Timbre  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:47:46pm

William H. McNeill is my favorite historian. I'm not sure he often uses the word "evolution," but he frequently mentions the human process of "adjustment and adaptation." This is the cornerstone of civilization and I have a great appreciation for his thesis.

66 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:47:58pm

re: #56 Kosh's Shadow

Maybe some banned lizard needs to set up a "Lizards anonymous" 12-step program or something.

Ummmm... those 12 step programs exist.

Sometime when you have nothing better to do, google for "banned" and "lgf". I won't link any of it, but there are some serious head cases out there that have dedicated a lot of time and energy in "exposing" the "injustices" at LGF.

To all of them I say "Get a life. It is a dude with a blog. He posts his opinion. he posts what he likes. And a whole lot of people are interested. When you go in his house and shit on his carpet, what do you expect?"

67 swamprat  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:48:05pm

re: #56 Kosh's Shadow


They have a bank of blogs.
They could form their own support group, and get a discount on therapy.
They could pool their resources and get a Sam's club card;
Hell, they could set up their own produce co-op.

68 Scion9  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:48:44pm

re: #50 ConservatismNow!

It lost favor until the early 1400s when Greek ideas were revived by the civic humanists of the Italian academies.

Been losing favor again since the continental European deterministic philosophers of the 19th century. Quite a lot of work goes into discounting free will on college campuses today.

69 Throbert McGee  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:48:50pm

-ickle.

(oops)

70 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:48:59pm

Yeah, I'm talking to myself again. So what? Hello Shadow, are you listening?

71 kahall  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:50:16pm

I'm not up to speed on this guy. Is this Terri Leo guy on the Texas Board of Education?

72 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:50:20pm

re: #70 The Shadow Do

Yeah, I'm talking to myself again. So what? Hello Shadow, are you listening?

I'm sorry, did you say something?

///

73 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:50:50pm

re: #60 Rich H

I don't understand this obsession Creationists have with Darwin.

Evolution was a compelling explanation of taxonomic patterns in life long before Darwin. It explains why all described species could be arranged in a tree of life based on similarity. Creationism doesn't begin to explain this elaborate pattern, which encompasses millions of empirical observations.

Darwin added the "how" of evolution. But even without mentioning him, there is no competing theory that comes close to explaining what evolution explains.

So why is Darwin being used as such a straw man?

Many of them hew to a literal reading of the Bible, which evolution contradicts. Others of them, think that because Darwin didn't mention God in his theory, it lends support to atheism.

74 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:51:32pm

re: #72 CynicalConservative

I'm sorry, did you say something?

///

who are you and why are you speaking to me?

huh, huh, huh...

75 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:52:00pm

"Archaeology is the search for fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall. "

76 tradewind  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:52:21pm

re: #60 Rich H

See ' TN v. Scopes'..... it'll explain a lot...

77 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:52:48pm
78 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:52:50pm

re: #66 karmic_inquisitor

Ummmm... those 12 step programs exist.

Sometime when you have nothing better to do, google for "banned" and "lgf". I won't link any of it, but there are some serious head cases out there that have dedicated a lot of time and energy in "exposing" the "injustices" at LGF.

To all of them I say "Get a life. It is a dude with a blog. He posts his opinion. he posts what he likes. And a whole lot of people are interested. When you go in his house and shit on his carpet, what do you expect?"

Those blogs seem to put down LGF; AA doesn't put down alcohol, but has its members admit their own problems in dealing with it.
That's what I mean by a 12-step program. Admit they're powerless to stop pointing on LGF.
Then they can be congratulated on how many days those still with accounts could keep from posting.
There is something wrong with people like that. I can understand the chemical effects alcohol has on some people, but posting on a blog?

79 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:52:58pm

re: #74 The Shadow Do

who are you and why are you speaking to me?

huh, huh, huh...

I'm the guy dressed in red standing on your left shoulder....

///

80 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:53:29pm
81 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:54:08pm

re: #80 ploome hineni

Eh?

82 kahall  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:54:26pm

re: #71 kahall

I'm not up to speed on this guy. Is this Terri Leo guy on the Texas Board of Education?

Duh, it's right in the post.

The latest jaw-dropping spin from the creationists on the Texas State Board of Education:

Unreal! Crazy!

83 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:54:44pm

re: #79 CynicalConservative

I'm the guy dressed in red standing on your left shoulder....

///

Oh no, oh no....

84 swamprat  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:55:06pm

re: #78 Kosh's Shadow

Those blogs seem to put down LGF; AA doesn't put down alcohol, but has its members admit their own problems in dealing with it.
That's what I mean by a 12-step program. Admit they're powerless to stop pointing on LGF.
Then they can be congratulated on how many days those still with accounts could keep from posting.
There is something wrong with people like that. I can understand the chemical effects alcohol has on some people, but posting on a blog?

"I was an asshole on LGF. This I admit freely....."

85 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:55:13pm

re: #13 Charles

They're lying for Jesus.

Even Ben Stein and Adnan Oktar?

86 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:55:22pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Many of them hew to a literal reading of the Bible, which evolution contradicts. Others of them, think that because Darwin didn't mention God in his theory, it lends support to atheism.

The letter kills...........

They don't even understand the Bible.

87 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:55:26pm
88 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:55:36pm

re: #83 The Shadow Do

Oh no, oh no....

Bwahahahhahh...

89 Scion9  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:56:38pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Heh.

90 Wendya  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:57:12pm

If you must lie to advance your religion, is it something worth spreading?

91 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:57:20pm

Well, read it. Sometimes I feel sorry for these people.

92 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:57:26pm

re: #79 CynicalConservative

I'm the guy dressed in red standing on your left shoulder....

///

So you're the guy Mick Jagger was singing about:

93 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:57:55pm

re: #87 ploome hineni

What are YOU babbling?

94 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:57:56pm
95 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:58:04pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Many of them hew to a literal reading of the Bible, which evolution contradicts. Others of them, think that because Darwin didn't mention God in his theory, it lends support to atheism.

Sad thing is that literal interpretation of the Bible ends up with contradictions that are in the Bible, when read literally. Spinoza detailed them and concluded that God gave us reason so that we could seek a better understanding of him, and that the Bible was sometimes a crude rendering of God's intent, and was necessarily so in order that it could be understood by early Israelites.

[Link: books.google.com...]

96 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:58:12pm

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

So you're the guy Mick Jagger was singing about:


Shhhhh, it's a secret.

97 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:58:35pm
98 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:59:28pm

re: #78 Kosh's Shadow

Those blogs seem to put down LGF; AA doesn't put down alcohol, but has its members admit their own problems in dealing with it.
That's what I mean by a 12-step program. Admit they're powerless to stop pointing on LGF.
Then they can be congratulated on how many days those still with accounts could keep from posting.
There is something wrong with people like that. I can understand the chemical effects alcohol has on some people, but posting on a blog?

I see your point now. Some of these folks do need help.

99 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 9:59:31pm

re: #88 CynicalConservative

Bwahahahhahh...

Hey little red buddy, want to check out a couple of places I know? You know, just for...fun?

100 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:00:41pm

re: #90 Wendya

If you must lie to advance your religion, is it something worth spreading?


DING!

I think it is. But these tools sure make it harder not easier.

101 CynicalConservative  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:00:57pm

Gotta run all, weather's getting nasty and gotta log off. Sorry if I rogered the thread too early. Nic is blue for friendly chastisement, else I'll slink back in the pacific time AM and read my just "rewards" for going O/T so early.

Night Lizards, stay scaly.

102 Rich H  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:01:23pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Many of them hew to a literal reading of the Bible, which evolution contradicts. Others of them, think that because Darwin didn't mention God in his theory, it lends support to atheism.

Biblical Literalism is extremely problematic for me. There are so many passages in the Bible and Koran which when taken literally lead to moral contradictions:
* Adam and Eve being held morally accountable before they knew the difference between right and wrong
* Abraham being ordered to sacrifice (i.e., murder) his son, then being praised for his willingness to carry out this murder.
* Joshua and others committing ethnic cleansing and genocide in Canaan.

I could go on.

Little wonder that literalism justifies mendacity in their minds.

103 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:02:02pm

I am out too.

Smooches to the snorers (see prior thread).

104 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:04:23pm

not another creationism thread....

/// don't block me Bro! Don't block me! aaaaaaiiiiiigggggghhhhh .... aaiiiggggggg

I'd love to stick around but it's late here, g'nite all

105 Racer X  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:06:32pm

Wanna see something really cool? I mean , really cool?
Bathtub video.

106 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:08:38pm

re: #104 Thanos

I've got the rubber bands stretched on the catapult as we speak. We can call it the Young Earther Catapult (YEC).

Maybe we can revise the Bible to say: If thou is a member of a school board or legislature and bringith up creationism as a method of science thou will burn in hell for etnernity!

107 Racer X  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:08:45pm

Bathtub Harbor

Sydney harbor filmed with a special focus, so everything looks smaller.

108 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:09:35pm

re: #102 Rich H

"The Bible and Koran". Yeah, same thing.

109 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:09:54pm

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

So you're the guy Mick Jagger was singing about:


[Video]

Yes .. thats right .. my name is Mr J J Flash.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:10:44pm

Hey, there's a whole website cataloguing people who've been banned from LGF!

111 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:11:19pm

re: #105 Racer X

cool. Nice music too.

112 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:11:40pm

re: #107 Racer X

Bathtub Harbor

Sydney harbor filmed with a special focus, so everything looks smaller.

Very narrow focal plane. Stop action.
VERY COOL!

113 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:12:13pm

You ever wonder how many millions of dollars are spent on this endeavor? Aren't they happy just teaching this in Sunday school or at a creationist camp? I don't see the point. Back in the day when my family was Catholic we never went through this hype which is starting to look like some kind of neurosis.

114 Timbre  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:12:39pm

re: #106 Gus 802

E.T. Nernity. Sounds like one of those cheap fiction writer's pseudonyms.

115 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:12:56pm

re: #109 Buster Bunny

Yes .. thats right .. my name is Mr J J Flash.

LOL!

116 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:12:57pm

Any state school board that wants any flavor of creationism taught in schools, in science class, should be required to prove that the author of creationism theory even exists. Lets require the same evidence for the existence of G-d as required by these folks in regards to evolution.

For a matter of fact, let's start asking these sort of folks, who want to promote religion in the public sector to prove scientifically that G-d exists.

If requiring firm evidence of something is good enough for our laws and deciding cases in court, then that same process should be good enough for creationist to prove that there is a creator who is responsible for the creation.

Maybe a little public discovery is needed.

117 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:13:07pm

re: #97 ploome hineni

Sorry. I can't really understand what you are getting at. Are you saying that the story of Adam and Eve is the first example of free will? This could be (and has been for hundreds of years) debated, as John Calvin and Martin Luther both believed the human will was irrevocably flawed, also known as predestination. It could be debated that Adam and Eve were destined to leave Eden.
I'm referring to Marsilio Ficino's merging of Platonic ideas with Christian teachings. The Platonic idea of free will says that humans have the power to make of themselves what they wish. Ficino explained that free will is the source of all human dignity because human beings were able to choose to love God.

118 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:13:23pm

re: #114 Timbre

E.T. Nernity. Sounds like one of those cheap fiction writer's pseudonyms.

I know. I saw that. You should have seen my eyes roll. ET Nernity!

119 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:13:26pm

re: #102 Rich H

Biblical Literalism is extremely problematic for me. There are so many passages in the Bible and Koran which when taken literally lead to moral contradictions:
* Adam and Eve being held morally accountable before they knew the difference between right and wrong
* Abraham being ordered to sacrifice (i.e., murder) his son, then being praised for his willingness to carry out this murder.
* Joshua and others committing ethnic cleansing and genocide in Canaan.

I could go on.

Little wonder that literalism justifies mendacity in their minds.

As I've, and others have said repeatedly. The Bible is a Spiritual text, and needs to read and understood that way.

120 Racer X  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:13:30pm

Question: What’s the difference between Obama and Jesus?

Answer: Jesus was a carpenter; Obama can't assemble a cabinet.

121 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:14:13pm

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Any state school board that wants any flavor of creationism taught in schools, in science class, should be required to prove that the author of creationism theory even exists. Lets require the same evidence for the existence of G-d as required by these folks in regards to evolution.

For a matter of fact, let's start asking these sort of folks, who want to promote religion in the public sector to prove scientifically that G-d exists.

If requiring firm evidence of something is good enough for our laws and deciding cases in court, then that same process should be good enough for creationist to prove that there is a creator who is responsible for the creation.

Maybe a little public discovery is needed.

The Court calls God to the witness stand......................

122 The Shadow Do  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:14:25pm

re: #109 Buster Bunny

Yes .. thats right .. my name is Mr J J Flash.

Brrrrraaaaaatttttt....

do you have gas, gas, gas?

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:14:44pm

re: #113 Gus 802

You ever wonder how many millions of dollars are spent on this endeavor? Aren't they happy just teaching this in Sunday school or at a creationist camp? I don't see the point. Back in the day when my family was Catholic we never went through this hype which is starting to look like some kind of neurosis.

I'm quite sure that the overwhelming majority of Biblical literalists in the country never give this a second thought. They have lives.

Then there are these guys...

124 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:14:59pm

re: #121 jcm

The Court calls God to the witness stand......................

Do You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and only the truth, so help You You?

125 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:15:24pm

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Any state school board that wants any flavor of creationism taught in schools, in science class, should be required to prove that the author of creationism theory even exists. Lets require the same evidence for the existence of G-d as required by these folks in regards to evolution.

For a matter of fact, let's start asking these sort of folks, who want to promote religion in the public sector to prove scientifically that G-d exists.

If requiring firm evidence of something is good enough for our laws and deciding cases in court, then that same process should be good enough for creationist to prove that there is a creator who is responsible for the creation.

Maybe a little public discovery is needed.

Now, that's a clear idea. Good one, Walter.

126 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:16:59pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

I know. I inherently was thinking the same. It's just that they seem to monopolize the dialogue and take up a lot hearing time. I'm thinking about cost/benefits to this.

127 Scion9  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:17:00pm

re: #77 ploome hineni

free will

think Adam and Eve

Free will is a concept in Judaism (and not even uniformly so from my understanding), but even with the story of Adam and Eve, the Greeks, Romans, etc that made up the bulk of early Christians were still culturally fatalist. The philosophy surrounding free will that became popular during the Renaissance were definitely more Platonic than anything else.

In modern philosophy the 'free will' of the OT would be considered moral responsibility, which is separate from Platonic rational choice. Jewish 'free will' is about a world view, or an ideology that teach the rightful course of action. It is not a philosophy, in the academic sense of the word.

Plato's works were more about why and how people make the choices that they do. Dividing peoples cognition between rational and irrational spheres. Religion in general doesn't particularly care why people make wrong choices, or rather or not the 'right' choices are based in reason for a specific situation.

128 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:17:20pm
129 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:17:34pm

re: #124 Salamantis

Do You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and only the truth, so help You You?

"But you told me to save England from the French!"

"Well, clearly this is very awkward. I never expected the two of you to be in the same room together. Er...have to go..."

130 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:18:15pm

re: #90 Wendya
Well

If you must lie to advance your religion, is it something worth spreading?

it might be if you're making money off of it.

131 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:18:59pm

re: #92 Dark_Falcon
Great Song!

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:19:22pm

re: #130 realwest

Well


it might be if you're making money off of it.

I keep having this terrible fantasy about starting one of these fake Kabbalah businesses.

I would be good at it.

But I don't think it's worth going to hell over.

133 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:19:39pm

SCOTUS will never put their foot down. Not for decades at least.

134 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:19:39pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey, there's a whole website cataloguing people who've been banned from LGF!

Think of it like a university degree. Its something you earn through study .. experimentation and debate to produce an end result. But in the end people respect you because you have been through everything to get that piece of paper.

Think of how many university dropouts there are. Nobody ever boasts that they dropped out when talking to someone of importance. Unless they make Microsoft. ;)

LGF membership is an honor badge I wear proudly. I'm just waiting for it to be accepted in more countries than American Express.

135 Racer X  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:19:46pm

Secretary of state Hillary Clinton is in Asia for an extended tour, and is currently in Japan.

Or as Bill was heard telling a woman in a bar last night, “We’re separated.”

136 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:19:54pm

re: #94 ploome hineni
Ha, try telling that to the Jehova's Witnesses!

137 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:20:18pm
138 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:20:57pm

Or do what SCOTUS loves to do. Deflect any definitive legal decision by saying its a local issue. Yep, science is a "local" issue.

139 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:21:22pm

re: #135 Racer X

Secretary of state Hillary Clinton is in Asia for an extended tour, and is currently in Japan.

Or as Bill was heard telling a woman in a bar last night, “We’re separated.”

Is he doing interns again?

140 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:22:08pm

re: #121 jcm

The Court calls God to the witness stand......................

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

Now, that's a clear idea. Good one, Walter.

And I want all Lizards to know that you never can find a post of mine that implies that someone's belief in a supreme being is wrong, or silly, or anything like that. I am an atheist who has no fight to pick with any believer.

But, I would have NO PROBLEM sticking it to these dishonest turds who are playing this game.

141 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:22:39pm
142 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:24:17pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

And I want all Lizards to know that you never can find a post of mine that implies that someone's belief in a supreme being is wrong, or silly, or anything like that. I am an atheist who has no fight to pick with any believer.

But, I would have NO PROBLEM sticking it to these dishonest turds who are playing this game.

So noted.

143 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:24:54pm

Creationists twisting the truth? Unpossible!

144 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:24:58pm

re: #137 ploome hineni

On that, I do agree. They kinda missed the point, but then if it weren't for John Calvin being such a tightwad, we never would have Thanksgiving. So...thanks John Calvin!

(For those of you who missed the HUGE jump in history I just made, John Calvin's teachings were a big influence on the Puritans in England. You know, the guys who were kicked out of England for being tightwads and wanted to found a theocracy in America.)

145 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:25:24pm

re: #136 realwest

Ha, try telling that to the Jehova's Witnesses!

So, why do you decide to pick on Jehovah's Witnesses? As far as I know, they are a Christian sect. I don't usually see people here on LGF making fun of different Christian sects.

I'm an atheist and I would never question a believers faith.

146 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:25:42pm

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith - twenty towns - and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter - his only child - ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." Judges 11:29-40

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. "As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the LORD your God." Deuteronomy 20:10-18 NLT

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

147 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:25:50pm

re: #143 Summer

Creationists twisting the truth? Unpossible!

From the back of the World Turtle I gotta tell ya there is something funky going on here.

148 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:26:07pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

And I want all Lizards to know that you never can find a post of mine that implies that someone's belief in a supreme being is wrong, or silly, or anything like that. I am an atheist who has no fight to pick with any believer.

But, I would have NO PROBLEM sticking it to these dishonest turds who are playing this game.

I know you are not ridiculing anyone's beliefs.

A I completely agree with you on sticking it to the dishonest turds.

149 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:26:18pm

re: #144 ConservatismNow!

And here I thought they invented vitamins.

150 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:26:21pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey, there's a whole website cataloguing people who've been banned from LGF!

I live inside their heads. I moved in and brought a whole living room furniture set. It's pretty comfy in there, except when the voices get too loud.

151 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:27:53pm

re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist Uh not all that familiar with the "Kabbalah" thing. Could you please educate an old (and tired) man?

152 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:28:45pm

Hey Night Lizards! It wasn't too bad today in Near Iowa. Some melting.

I was thinking (I know, dangerous) today.

Do you think we'd be in this ID mess is Charles Darwin had named his book anything but The Origin of Species?

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

153 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:29:17pm

re: #150 Charles

Pretty soon we can add LGF to a psychological profile questionnaire:

1. Have you ever been a member of Little Green Footballs?

2. What was the reason for your dismissal from Little Green Footballs?

3. Were you able to continue a normal life after this event?

154 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:30:10pm

re: #150 Charles

I live inside their heads. I moved in and brought a whole living room furniture set. It's pretty comfy in there.

There's lots of room, that's for sure.

155 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:31:37pm

re: #150 Charles

I live inside their heads. I moved in and brought a whole living room furniture set. It's pretty comfy in there.

I'm calling BS on this one. There's NO WAY you got enough juice into your mind control device to break through the double strength tin foil hats they wear.

156 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:31:55pm

re: #152 ggt

Do you think we'd be in this ID mess is Charles Darwin had named his book anything but The Origin of Species?

There was a show about the whole Darwin thing on last night (it is STILL a celebration about his anniversary u know). Anyway .. it turned out that all the Christian parody of him in cartoons and such got more people actually investigating the whole idea .. and spread the concept even better than his book did !

Yes .. bad publicity .. is also .. publicity.

157 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:31:58pm

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

So, why do you decide to pick on Jehovah's Witnesses? As far as I know, they are a Christian sect. I don't usually see people here on LGF making fun of different Christian sects.

I'm an atheist and I would never question a believers faith.

I know some JW's and they are actually pretty cool people.

I think I've always wondered about the sect because, IIRC, the founder set a day for the world to end and it didn't happen. Instead of disassembling the religion, they members just went on, again and again.

How are you Walter L.?

158 dkorta  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:32:00pm

re: #102 Rich H

Biblical Literalism is extremely problematic for me. There are so many passages in the Bible and Koran which when taken literally lead to moral contradictions:...
* Joshua and others committing ethnic cleansing and genocide in Canaan.
blockquote>

This would be the same Joshua that, according to the Bible, more or less ordered the Earth to stop rotating (though he and his contemporaries would have probably considered it ordering the Celestial Orb to stop rotating) for an entire day so he could have more time to slaughter the enemies of God's people.

Yes. A very vulgar fellow indeed.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:32:19pm

re: #146 Salamantis

So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

Um, is there a point, or should we just post Judges, verse by verse?

160 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:32:47pm

re: #155 ConservatismNow!

I'm calling BS on this one. There's NO WAY you got enough juice into your mind control device to break through the double strength tin foil hats they wear.

Me too! We all know Charles lives deep under (South) Denver.

161 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:32:51pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey, there's a whole website cataloguing people who've been banned from LGF!

Yep, one such site is run by Nodrog himself. I actually checked it out once, and I can report that Gordon is still clueless.

162 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:33:32pm

re: #153 Gus 802

It will be in most job interviews. The big question is .. whether it will be a plus or a minus. Depends on the governement that runs the show at the time.

163 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:33:38pm

re: #145 Walter L. Newton
That's because you're a better man than I am, Walter.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:33:43pm

re: #151 realwest

Uh not all that familiar with the "Kabbalah" thing. Could you please educate an old (and tired) man?

Jewish mystic tradition, now being shamelessly pop-culturized and marketed to non-Jewish celebrities with rocks in their heads, most famously, Madonna.

165 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:33:53pm

re: #156 Buster Bunny

There was a show about the whole Darwin thing on last night (it is STILL a celebration about his anniversary u know). Anyway .. it turned out that all the Christian parody of him in cartoons and such got more people actually investigating the whole idea .. and spread the concept even better than his book did !

Yes .. bad publicity .. is also .. publicity.

yes, I have a feeling that the Origin not crediting G-d ruffled some feathers. Actually, he didn't cite the Origin, per se, just a system IIRC.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:34:28pm

re: #150 Charles

I live inside their heads. I moved in and brought a whole living room furniture set. It's pretty comfy in there.

Apparently, oh 'Tyrannosaurus'.

167 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:34:42pm

re: #157 ggt

I know some JW's and they are actually pretty cool people.

I think I've always wondered about the sect because, IIRC, the founder set a day for the world to end and it didn't happen. Instead of disassembling the religion, they members just went on, again and again.

How are you Walter L.?

I'm fine, now back to my question. I am not sure why Realwest sort of may a crass joke about Jehovah's Witnesses? That is something I don't see here on LGF, at least not much. I have seen dome dumping on Mormans, and even then, most Lizards didn't think it was cool.

168 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:34:55pm

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

Um, is there a point, or should we just post Judges, verse by verse?

The point is that these days, we would reject the attempt to live by the rules of these ancient tribes as morally abhorrent. Slavery and genocide ain't good things these days.

169 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:35:04pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

Jewish mystic tradition, now being shamelessly pop-culturized and marketed to non-Jewish celebrities with rocks in their heads, most famously, Madonna.

Does it involve transfer of large amounts of money from said pop devotee?

YEAH! Capitalism!
;-P

170 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:35:13pm

re: #146 Salamantis

Next time I suggest just linking to a PDF version of the bible .. it saves on typing.

171 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:35:15pm

re: #150 Charles
Didja bring along a big screen LCD TV with ya?!

172 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:36:08pm

re: #162 Buster Bunny

It will be in most job interviews. The big question is .. whether it will be a plus or a minus. Depends on the governement that runs the show at the time.

Really? I've noticed that Post Traumatic Getting Kicked Out of Little Green Footballs Syndrome (PTGKOLGFS) crosses all political ideologies. Seriously thought, it does. At least from what I've seen.

173 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:36:58pm

re: #169 jcm

Better than Scientology, I guess.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:37:04pm

re: #157 ggt

I know some JW's and they are actually pretty cool people.

I think I've always wondered about the sect because, IIRC, the founder set a day for the world to end and it didn't happen. Instead of disassembling the religion, they members just went on, again and again.

How are you Walter L.?

I like Jehovah's Witnesses because they give me reading material at bus stations. Also, most of their missionaries are older women. LDS missionaries don't give me anything to read, and they are mostly young men, and get too close, physically. Less pleasant to deal with. I think it's a regional thing.

175 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:37:22pm

re: #163 realwest

That's because you're a better man than I am, Walter.

Penance for thee!

//

176 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:37:35pm

re: #171 realwest

Didja bring along a big screen LCD TV with ya?!

Oh, yeah! Carver audio too!

177 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:37:50pm

re: #165 ggt

And the funny thing is .. Origin of Species deliberately didnt talk about humans in the book. And yet that is the most common parody .. and the most often written about scapegoating of Darwin.

He talked about the changes in animals. Birds and wildlife.

178 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:37:51pm

re: #163 realwest

That's because you're a better man than I am, Walter.

Why don't you just answer my question? I almost never see Lizards attack each others particular sect. We have MANY flavors of Christian sects here, and personal beliefs are usually respected.

I have seen once (there may have been more), an incident where there was a little pile on in regards to Mormans, and it wasn't well received by most Lizards.

Why did you make a snide remark about Jehovah's Witnesses?

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:38:16pm

re: #161 Dark_Falcon

Yep, one such site is run by Nodrog himself. I actually checked it out once, and I can report that Gordon is still clueless.

I think that's the one I'm reading. It's rather interesting--little portraits of the banned lizards, and what happened to them.

180 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:38:27pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

I'm fine, now back to my question. I am not sure why Realwest sort of may a crass joke about Jehovah's Witnesses? That is something I don't see here on LGF, at least not much. I have seen dome dumping on Mormans, and even then, most Lizards didn't think it was cool.

JW's kinda open themselves up to parody. The going from door to door and all. They aren't as large a group as the Mormans.

Again, if you are a a member of a sect whose whole purpose is to prepare for the end of the world that is going to happen on a specific day and that day comes and the world doesn't end, don't you think you'd say "Well, we got that one wrong, time to move on."?

(nice run-on sentence)

anyway, they continued with the delusion --now over 100 years of it.

I think the current JW's have moved away from the whole end of the world is coming concept, but the origins are comical.

181 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:38:31pm

And now the hate mail!

In the last year I have seen non stop christian bashing and a crusade against creationism.

I know you are hearing it from other conservatives because you are
telling the GOP base to fuck off.

I also notice you ban anyone with an opinion you don't like...kinda
like DU.

We lost the election because of people like you, not Sarah Palin buddy.

182 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:39:16pm

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist Ah well then if you're gonna play around with Madonna you'll surely go to hell!

183 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:40:13pm

re: #182 realwest

Ah well then if you're gonna play around with Madonna you'll surely go to hell!

As well as have to visit a...ah, shall we say, discreet doctor afterward?

184 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:40:45pm

re: #181 Charles

And now the hate mail!

Who is the writer they calling "we"?

185 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:40:50pm

re: #180 ggt

JW's kinda open themselves up to parody. The going from door to door and all. They aren't as large a group as the Mormans.

Again, if you are a a member of a sect whose whole purpose is to prepare for the end of the world that is going to happen on a specific day and that day comes and the world doesn't end, don't you think you'd say "Well, we got that one wrong, time to move on."?

(nice run-on sentence)

anyway, they continued with the delusion --now over 100 years of it.

I think the current JW's have moved away from the whole end of the world is coming concept, but the origins are comical.

I don't care, we usually don't make snide remarks about particular christian sects here on LGF.

Hey, if we want to start making fun of certain sects, let's go. I'll get to the front of the line. But it won't be pretty.

186 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:41:11pm

RW! How you doin'?

187 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:41:38pm

re: #176 jcm
Sweet!

188 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:42:22pm

re: #182 realwest

Ah well then if you're gonna play around with Madonna you'll surely go to hell!

Yes .. but I'd still want to be on her TO DO list.

189 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:42:43pm

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

Religious wars were started for less.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:43:03pm

re: #168 Salamantis

The point is that these days, we would reject the attempt to live by the rules of these ancient tribes as morally abhorrent. Slavery and genocide ain't good things these days.

This is why we have the Mishna and the Gemara and the commentaries. This is why Catholics have a tradition of church teaching. Because cutesy as the idea of 'living Biblically' is, Canaan in the days of the Judges was too damn much like, well, modern Afghanistan, for anyone to want to hang out there who has options.

Additionally, they weren't such a great thing at the time, even. There's a reason why each of the horrific tales of Judges ends with 'there was no king in the land in those days, and every man did what was right in his eyes'.

I have always believed that you could make a great Western out of the story of Deborah. "Times was gettin' hard in Shiloh Gulch, and old Judge Ehud, he was dead..."

191 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:43:25pm

re: #181 Charles

And now the hate mail!

No concern for your immortal soul?
No REPENT OR YOU'LL BURN IN HELL?

They're slipping.

192 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:43:53pm

re: #186 ggt Hey ggt! I'm doing pretty well thank you - just sent a bunch of Jehovvas Witnesses to Walter's house for a chat!
How are you doing?

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:44:17pm

re: #169 jcm

Does it involve transfer of large amounts of money from said pop devotee?

YEAH! Capitalism!
;-P

Well, yes. That's the tempting part. I could make a fortune off this. I know I could.

But God, and my parents, would DEAL with me.

194 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:44:58pm

Here's a hate mailer who agrees with me that creationism is a big issue -- but from a somewhat different perspective:

Creationism is THE DEFINING ISSUE in the culture war in the US.

Abortion, pornography, euthanasia, drugs, prostitution, homosexual
marriage, the environment, embryonic stem cell research, population
control, etc. etc. The different views come from different beliefs
about our human origin and history.

I'd like to see how you can argue otherwise.

And you advocate that only one side in the culture war should be
entitled to have their view heard in the public schools yet you continue
to enjoy the freedom of speech in the USA (freedoms that came out a a
Christian, creationist philosophy) to blog.

Seems hypocritical to me.

195 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:44:58pm

re: #181 Charles

And now the hate mail!

In the last year I have seen non stop christian bashing and a crusade against creationism.

I know you are hearing it from other conservatives because you are
telling the GOP base to fuck off.

I also notice you ban anyone with an opinion you don't like...kinda
like DU.

We lost the election because of people like you, not Sarah Palin buddy.

Yeah, you know....that's why Saturday Night Live was doing skits about Charles Johnson being an Evolutionist instead of Sarah Palin being a Creationist....

196 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:45:09pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, yes. That's the tempting part. I could make a fortune off this. I know I could.

But God, and my parents, would DEAL with me.

LOL! Some of us still have a conscience!

197 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:45:18pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist Ok, then you probably shouldn't do it.

198 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:46:01pm

That one is from Australia.

199 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:46:40pm

re: #192 realwest

Hey ggt! I'm doing pretty well thank you - just sent a bunch of Jehovvas Witnesses to Walter's house for a chat!
How are you doing?

hangin' in there, as usual. Thanks for askin'. Not here for long. Got a late start and am almost ready for bed.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:46:50pm

re: #180 ggt

JW's kinda open themselves up to parody. The going from door to door and all. They aren't as large a group as the Mormans.

Again, if you are a a member of a sect whose whole purpose is to prepare for the end of the world that is going to happen on a specific day and that day comes and the world doesn't end, don't you think you'd say "Well, we got that one wrong, time to move on."?

(nice run-on sentence)

anyway, they continued with the delusion --now over 100 years of it.

I think the current JW's have moved away from the whole end of the world is coming concept, but the origins are comical.

Eh, I belong to a religion where we may be heading toward our SECOND giant split about whether the Messiah came already--or maybe this counts as our third, after the affair with SHabtai Tsvi. I got no space to criticize.

201 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:47:08pm

re: #180 ggt

We arrived at the millennium and the head honco of one particular religion didnt turn up again on time, as in any time around that magic 2k marker we laid out for him. For a lot of people this had major repercussions as to how they face their religion for Y21k.

In simple language there are a lot of them who feel he didnt come for a reason. And they are trying their hardest to make him come as soon as possible.

You think a revivalist movement aint dangerous? It was a major factor in the latter Crusades!

202 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:47:34pm

re: #198 Charles

That one is from Australia.

Oh, upside down logic, I get it now!
///

No disrespect to our Lizards down under intended.

203 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:47:39pm

re: #168 Salamantis

Quite right. But the lesson is unnecessary for Christians and Jews. If in the past the god of the Bible gave instructions to take actions that we ,2700 years later, find cruel and barbarous, these were instructions given to those people at a specific time and for a specific purpose. The instructions were not open ended where, for evermore ,we are to kill those people who do not share our beliefs, whatever they may be.

204 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:47:47pm

re: #180 ggt

So you think Jehovah's Witnesses are are fair target for ridicule?

205 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:47:54pm

re: #194 Charles

Here's a hate mailer who agrees with me that creationism is a big issue -- but from a somewhat different perspective:

So...what he's saying is: abortion, drugs, prostitution etc...those are all the products of Evolution...

...and slavery, genocide, tyranny were all a product of Religion?

Not sure I grasp his view of history.

206 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:48:12pm

re: #191 jcm
"No concern for your immortal soul?
No REPENT OR YOU'LL BURN IN HELL?
They're slipping." Must be the Carver sound system with the big screen tv - kinda distracts 'em some!

207 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:48:15pm

re: #194 Charles

There you go. Accept creationism and consider evolution akin to sodomy, hippies, drug addiction, and Communism. After all, it was the creationists that gave you the freedom to speak your mind!

Perplexing to say the least.

208 brandon13  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:48:45pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Many of them hew to a literal reading of the Bible, which evolution contradicts. Others of them, think that because Darwin didn't mention God in his theory, it lends support to atheism.

Unfortunately for them it just lends itre: #146 Salamantis

"But he loves you." - Carlin

209 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:49:02pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Eh, I belong to a religion where we may be heading toward our SECOND giant split about whether the Messiah came already--or maybe this counts as our third, after the affair with SHabtai Tsvi. I got no space to criticize.

But obviously there are at least a couple of people here who have no problem criticizing a Christian sect that they don't belong to.

210 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:49:03pm

re: #194 Charles

Here's a hate mailer who agrees with me that creationism is a big issue -- but from a somewhat different perspective:

I don't get that logic at all.

211 NY Nana  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:49:53pm

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Sadly, it seems that 'Public school' does not mean what it used to anymore, and my kids said that if any of this ID and creationism is taught in the schools my 3 grandkids go to? They would make such a fuss, etc. It does not belong in any public school anywhere in the USA.

Luckily, the elementary schools the 8 and 6 year old granddaughters go to, one in NY, and the other in NJ, do not, and they go to Hebrew School for their Jewish education. The 2 1/2 year old goes to a Gan, (nursery school) in Brooklyn, where yes, they do learn about the holidays, and especially the Sabbath, where he bakes a challah every Friday AM...it is the size of a dinner roll, and somehow it is nearly all gone by the time my daughter drives him home..about 10 minutes from where they live. He does his versions of the blessings, in Hebrew...and we are amazed that he can at his age. My son in law is an atheist, BTW, but has been just wonderful re Gan. He attends parties, etc., whenever he can, and helps out.

Any parent who desires a religious education for their child can send them to the religious school of their choice...after school. And any school board that that allows this crap? Vote them out of office.

End of case!

There is so much to learn in public schools now...and the kids come home with piles of homework, even in kindergarten. Creationism, etc.? Seriously, there really ought to be a Federal law to keep it out of public schools.

212 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:50:11pm

"The reason we lost the Vietnam War was because of Darwin, and the sexual revolution."

L. Ron Robertson, 1974

///

213 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:50:42pm

re: #203 BatGuano

Quite right. But the lesson is unnecessary for Christians and Jews. If in the past the god of the Bible gave instructions to take actions that we ,2700 years later, find cruel and barbarous, these were instructions given to those people at a specific time and for a specific purpose. The instructions were not open ended where, for evermore ,we are to kill those people who do not share our beliefs, whatever they may be.

Dunno, I am still commanded to destroy 'Amalek', and the definition of that name can get pretty heated.

214 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:50:44pm

re: #212 Gus 802

Who the hell, that?

215 jcm  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:50:48pm

I'm outta here.

G'night honcos!

216 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:51:19pm

re: #211 NY Nana

... Seriously, there really ought to be a Federal law to keep it out of public schools.

Amen.

217 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:51:27pm

I'm too tired to keep going. Talk to you all tomorrow.

218 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:51:29pm

re: #201 Buster Bunny

Yeah, some scarry ideas out there.

219 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:51:38pm

re: #214 BatGuano

A fictional character I created.

220 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:51:49pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm still on Amalek alert. I think we missed a few.

221 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:52:10pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

joking, not ridicule. Heck, Walter, I joke about my religion on these pages.

222 realwest  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:52:16pm

I'm outta here too y'all. Have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and I hope I get the chance to see you down the road.

Good night, all.

223 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:52:27pm

re: #211 NY Nana

Sadly, it seems that 'Public school' does not mean what it used to anymore, and my kids said that if any of this ID and creationism is taught in the schools my 3 grandkids go to? They would make such a fuss, etc. It does not belong in any public school anywhere in the USA.

Luckily, the elementary schools the 8 and 6 year old granddaughters go to, one in NY, and the other in NJ, do not, and they go to Hebrew School for their Jewish education. The 2 1/2 year old goes to a Gan, (nursery school) in Brooklyn, where yes, they do learn about the holidays, and especially the Sabbath, where he bakes a challah every Friday AM...it is the size of a dinner roll, and somehow it is nearly all gone by the time my daughter drives him home..about 10 minutes from where they live. He does his versions of the blessings, in Hebrew...and we are amazed that he can at his age. My son in law is an atheist, BTW, but has been just wonderful re Gan. He attends parties, etc., whenever he can, and helps out.

Any parent who desires a religious education for their child can send them to the religious school of their choice...after school. And any school board that that allows this crap? Vote them out of office.

End of case!

There is so much to learn in public schools now...and the kids come home with piles of homework, even in kindergarten. Creationism, etc.? Seriously, there really ought to be a Federal law to keep it out of public schools.

There is. It's called the 1st Amendment.

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:52:53pm

re: #220 BatGuano

I'm still on Amalek alert. I think we missed a few.

Always a few more out there...

225 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:52:58pm

re: #219 Gus 802

And a fine one at that. I was going to google this chimera.

226 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:53:59pm

re: #211 NY Nana

If you teach Creationism in school, you gotta teach ALL the creation stories, not just the Christian ones.

227 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:54:32pm

re: #221 ggt

joking, not ridicule. Heck, Walter, I joke about my religion on these pages.

Fine, I'm not going to argue about it. Don't worry about me. It's just me, not my thing at all.

228 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:54:56pm

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

But obviously there are at least a couple of people here who have no problem criticizing a Christian sect that they don't belong to.

Walter, if any topic is strictly off limits for critical comment on LGF? Isn't that the reason we are here?

229 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:56:20pm

re: #225 BatGuano

Yeah. That's how some of those folks think. It's the primitive linear logic.

230 teleskiguy  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:56:22pm

Creationists. Need to take out the "a" and the "o" for a more accurate description.

231 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:56:26pm

re: #228 ggt

Walter, if any topic is strictly off limits for critical comment on LGF? Isn't that the reason we are here?

Did you see my last reply...

"Fine, I'm not going to argue about it. Don't worry about me. It's just me, not my thing at all."

232 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:57:39pm

re: #194 Charles


There is a part of me that would not want to fight for any reason. Thats the liberal component, the side that has grown fat off the fact that I've been in a society which has had it incredibly good for an awful long time.

Then there is the part of me that is watching the doom curtains of the O come down and the freedoms that I once appreciated die one by one.

There must have been speeches that lieutenants .. colonels and such gave to infantry in WW2 that would have been all about freedom and what it means and why we fight for it. And it takes someone who wants to remove all that for me to understand how valuable it really is.

233 Salamantis  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 10:59:31pm

What really torques my undies is alla these folks who are willing to fight, kill and die for the right to tell other people what they can and cannot do.

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:02:06pm

re: #233 Salamantis

What really torques my undies is alla these folks who are willing to fight, kill and die for the right to tell other people what they can and cannot do.

Secure in the certainty that they are not only right, but being persecuted by anyone who objects.

235 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:02:31pm

re: #233 Salamantis

What really torques my undies is alla these folks who are willing to fight, kill and die for the right to tell other people what they can and cannot do.

You mean the ones that threat to promote this ideology? I've seen that for decades.

236 NY Nana  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:03:14pm

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

Amen.

Amen, indeed. And with school budgets being so sharply cut, there is no room for this crap. The poor kids don't even have gym in a lot of places, yet they want to sneak a perverted corruption called ID, etc., into the mix.

/When did Brainwashing 101 become standard in far too many states? I wonder what The One's daughters are learning? Maybe private lessons with Rev. White?

Yipes! 2 AM....got to go to sleep! G'nite, all. Sweet dreams!

237 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:03:40pm

"Alla(H) these" folks are the adversaries of Democracy.

238 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:05:03pm
239 NY Nana  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:06:43pm

re: #226 ConservatismNow!

If you teach Creationism in school, you gotta teach ALL the creation stories, not just the Christian ones.

Don't look at me! I am not about to touch that stuff with a barge pole! ;)

That is exactly why it does not belong in any public school system, and not in Alaska and Florida, either...Palin says she would not have it, but who knows? Too far to travel to and find out, and Jindal? He scares me.

G'nite!

240 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:07:31pm

Here comes the "love the sinner" lamb.

241 Kragar  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:10:41pm

re: #240 Gus 802

Here comes the "love the sinner" lamb.

Personally, there are quite a few sins I enjoy more than the sinners

242 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:12:05pm

re: #241 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Personally, there are quite a few sins I enjoy more than the sinners

Ditto. Being a misanthrope helps to that end. For a minute there I thought I was the last man on Earth. Well, at least on LGF.

Maybe I was wrong with that comment.

243 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:12:29pm

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

I think we were posting at, virtually, the same time. So, no, I didn't see it.

244 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:13:29pm

I might have a solution though. Create national teaching standards.

245 Kragar  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:14:23pm

re: #244 Gus 802

I might have a solution though. Create national teaching standards.

Like we need the Feds to get in our business even more.

246 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:14:35pm

Think of it like the FAA and pilot certifications, and medical exams. This would apply to teachers and include a science clause that prohibits the teaching of creationism as science.

247 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:14:52pm

re: #245 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Like we need the Feds to get in our business even more.

I know. But hey.

248 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:17:51pm

::End Tape::

::Sound of Impact::

249 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:18:52pm

re: #244 Gus 802

Federalize education? Why not?, everything else is being federalized. We belong to the state, " Our lands, our lives and all (are federalized) and nothing can we call our own except that small model of the barren earth which serves as paste and cover to our bones".

250 Kragar  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:20:09pm

re: #246 Gus 802

Think of it like the FAA and pilot certifications, and medical exams. This would apply to teachers and include a science clause that prohibits the teaching of creationism as science.

Do you really want Barack Obama and his cronies and hangers on (Bill Ayers, Rev Wright, etc, etc) setting a national public education curriculum?

251 Jack Burton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:21:16pm

Geocentrists: Copernicus would have liked us.

252 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:21:36pm

re: #249 BatGuano

Federalize education? Why not?, everything else is being federalized. We belong to the state, " Our lands, our lives and all (are federalized) and nothing can we call our own except that small model of the barren earth which serves as paste and cover to our bones".

I'm Federalized as it is. My work deals with regulations all around. My friends at Treasury have me in their tentacles. It's not like I'd have sympathy for any other fellow citizens falling within their grasp.

253 Kragar  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:22:04pm

re: #251 ArchangelMichael

Geocentrists: Copernicus would have liked us.

Obviously they are mistaken. I am the center of the universe.

254 Buster Bunny  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:22:10pm

re: #246 Gus 802

Think of it like the FAA and pilot certifications, and medical exams. This would apply to teachers and include a science clause that prohibits the teaching of creationism as science.

There are a number of people trying to do things to America at the moment, and the only reason they can get away with it is because Americans that have the knowhow and the commonsence are not either speaking out or showing a common front to dissuade these people from their ideas.

Americans with their strengths can be an awesome opponent and would put these creationist, Islamist, deconstructionist voices back into their genie bottles. So that normal average, work for a paycheck Americans can do what they do best.

Make America Strong.

255 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:22:32pm

re: #250 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Do you really want Barack Obama and his cronies and hangers on (Bill Ayers, Rev Wright, etc, etc) setting a national public education curriculum?

No. Because Obama would probably pander to his Sunday Go To Meeting electorate.

256 Kragar  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:23:22pm

If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards - Your Federal Government at work

257 Jack Burton  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:23:35pm

re: #253 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Obviously they are mistaken. I am the center of the universe.

But... but.... I thought The One™ was

258 Kragar  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:25:05pm

re: #257 ArchangelMichael

But... but.... I thought The One™ was

He is the cobra to my mongoose.

Or is that the mongoose to my cobra?

Whatever it is, its not good.

259 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:25:16pm

re: #254 Buster Bunny

OK, I'll count on that.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:27:11pm

Signing off.

Night all.

261 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:29:22pm

Unfortunately, we have past proof that some federal oversight of education is necessary. Specifically the Jim Crow South. It took Eisenhower to send the Military to Little Rock, Arkansas to allow a small group of students to receive an equal education.

Now Little Rock High School is has a black majority and I'm not sure they receive a quality education. Not because if the color of their skin, but because the quality of public school education has decreased overall.

I blame the Teachers Union and their lawyers along with the social engineers more than I blame federal intervention in this situation.

Without national standards of some form, localities are free to fail our children in terrible ways. Whether it be prejudice or bad science.

I HATE standardized tests, but without them, we have no way to evaluate the effectiveness of education. In that respect, I have to support No Child Left Behind.

I am not a fan of Federal Power at the expense of State's Rights. I've thought long an hard about this as it relates to education and I don't have the answer.

262 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:30:32pm

re: #256 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards - Your Federal Government at work

would that be Gresham's Law in action?

263 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:31:08pm

re: #252 Gus 802

You have no sympathy for others falling within their grasp? I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone who's government is intruding on their life. I'm pleased that you are making a good living at treasury,but I don't have a government job. Most American's don't. although that is changing. I want to be left the hell alone.

264 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:32:30pm

weet dreams all!

265 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:33:14pm

re: #264 ggt

g'night ggt

266 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:34:36pm

re: #263 BatGuano

No. It's the other way around actually. I am in the grasp of the gubernment being that I haven't been more than holy.

267 Scion9  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:40:16pm

re: #244 Gus 802

I might have a solution though. Create national teaching standards.

Abolish public education altogether. No democratic State should be involved in transmitting its ideology to its own electorate. Completely anathema to the spirit of the 1st Amendment.

268 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:43:07pm

re: #266 Gus 802

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god". But I don't see this as a religious argument. I fall short everyday. I want the feds to leave me the hell alone. I want my local and state government to leave me the hell alone. I want them to keep their sticky hands out of my wallet. I will gladly pay taxes for the necessary function of government. I wish John Adams were here to kick some ass.

269 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:47:07pm

re: #267 Scion9

Or expand vouchers. Repeal property taxes and give people a choice for education. Of course that would require a more alert or proactive citizenry.

270 Brit in Japan  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:48:23pm

Awesome.

It's hard to believe they would boldly state such an obvious lie, and think that people would not find out.

The respect these people have for their fellow human beings must be awesome.

And they dare to use words like intelligent design?

BiJ

271 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:52:34pm

Establish a 10% consumption tax. Close the NEA and the State Department. Repeal McCain/Feingold. Establish term limits for congress.

272 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:53:34pm

Close Treasury. Re-establish the gold standard.

273 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:55:03pm

Combine Forestry, Interior and EPA into one administration.

274 Gus  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:56:17pm

Strike NEA to Department of Education.

275 BatGuano  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:58:39pm

A 10% consumption tax if the income tax is repealed. Eliminate the NEA but keep the State Department (one of the original four cabinet posts). Repeal McCain/Feingold. Let the voters decide how long they want to keep voting these jackasses in.

276 brandon13  Mon, Feb 23, 2009 11:59:31pm

re: #273 Gus 802

Combine Forestry, Interior and EPA into one administration.

You could've done the same with these posts.

277 Gus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:00:59am

re: #275 BatGuano

A 10% consumption tax if the income tax is repealed. Eliminate the NEA but keep the State Department (one of the original four cabinet posts). Repeal McCain/Feingold. Let the voters decide how long they want to keep voting these jackasses in.

Yes, 10% consumption tax with income tax and SS/FICA removed. Including self employment tax. State would have to remove foreign aid then.

278 BatGuano  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:07:54am

Agreed. Motion is seconded, voice vote (ayes 100%) , nays (fuck 'em).

279 stevieray  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:08:39am

Move all welfare/general assistance/food stamps from the Feds to Local/City/County level. Let the local government decide what support to provide, and raise all of the money to pay for those programs.

This will begin to return shame to the idea of living off your neighbors -- Washington or the state capitol are too big and too far away -- too easy to rationalize taking the money.

If recipients had to face the folks directly paying their way, every day on the streets of their town, it would stop looking like "free money" to both the payers and the payees.

280 Gus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:08:53am

re: #278 BatGuano

Agreed. Motion is seconded, voice vote (ayes 100%) , nays (fuck 'em).

The motion is adopted!

281 BatGuano  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:10:39am

re: #280 Gus 802

Yay! Democracy is easy! ( doing my superior dance)

282 Gus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:12:35am

re: #279 stevieray

Welfare and GA can be kept but only for the truly handicapped, elderly, or those with medical reasons. Removal of all cultural or addiction based causes.

283 Scion9  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:13:03am

re: #278 BatGuano

Agreed. Motion is seconded, voice vote (ayes 100%) , nays (fuck 'em).

You know, leading up to the French Revolution, in the salons there were entire counterfactual political systems set up. Fantasy France instead of fantasy football.

284 Gus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:14:30am

re: #283 Scion9

You know, leading up to the French Revolution, in the salons there were entire counterfactual political systems set up. Fantasy France instead of fantasy football.

Ah, those were the days.

285 BatGuano  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:18:54am

re: #279 stevieray

Stevietray, belated upding. just saw your post. You are exactly right.

286 BatGuano  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:20:09am

re: #283 Scion9

I thought I knew a lot about the French revolution, but I did not know that.

287 Gus  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:24:53am

Bones and notches folks. Keep coming up with new ideas for a return to liberty.

288 stevieray  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 1:04:08am

re: #279 stevieray

Addendum:

The Feds would keep a skeleton crew of their former welfare bureaucracy to perform two functions:

1. Avoid fraud by acting as a clearinghouse for local governments to check applicant IDs... Is this person who they say they are, and are they currently collecting benefits anywhere else...

2. Collect data on recipients for academic/policy research.

The states would have no role in welfare at all... no subsidies, no reimbursments, no emergency bailouts... no nuttin'.

289 UncleRancher  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:10:08am

re: #273 Gus 802

Combine Forestry, Interior and EPA into one administration.

Forestry is part of USDA if I'm not mistaken.

290 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 2:55:05am
291 Tigger2005  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:40:16am

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

So, why do you decide to pick on Jehovah's Witnesses? As far as I know, they are a Christian sect. I don't usually see people here on LGF making fun of different Christian sects.

I'm an atheist and I would never question a believers faith.

The JW's kinda set themselves up for mockery though, what with the door-to-door stuff and the literature with the silly "New World" pictures of tame vegetarian lions...

292 revGDright  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 3:49:42am

"And on the Eighth day,
God created the Remington bolt-action rifle,
So that man could defend himself,
from the dinosaurs and the homosexuals."

-Home-schooled kid in Mean Girls

293 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:48:37am

Quote mining is also used by those who seek to demonize Israel, and by default, the Jews who reside there. The tactics are very similar, though the anti-Zionists here will also misrepresent history to further their anti-semetic agenda. Sadly, it is an effective method to fool the masses, as I've witnessed first hand.

294 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:48:46am
295 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 7:54:27am

re: #294 bse5150

This isn't about your belief system. This is about identifying those who seek to usurp the Constitution by imposing religion in public schools via deceit. This is about conserving the United States as it is, and not standing idly by as theocrats stealthily creep into public arena under the guise of "free speech."

296 Basho  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 8:02:53am

Fish with transparent skull and barrel-shaped eyes:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

297 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:13:33am

NO, it's not like I have serious work to do... It's not like doing actual science takes time and energy while these morons come up with ever more insane ways to cut me down and destroy my profession.

I am just sick of these fools.

Simply sick of it. That feeling of being sick of it, is what has caused certain scientists like Dawkins and Weinberg to go on an atheist crusade. Yet these morons persist in believing they are doing the Lord's work.

Darwin would have recognized them as the same ones who tried to shut him down in his day.

I wonder if these people ever think about Galileo? Every time religious dogma has come up against scientific fact it has lost - badly.


Ahhh, I'm rambling. I have to get back to doing some physics.

298 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:17:37am

re: #270 Brit in Japan

Awesome.

It's hard to believe they would boldly state such an obvious lie, and think that people would not find out.

The respect these people have for their fellow human beings must be awesome.

And they dare to use words like intelligent design?

BiJ

Very well said.
I am becoming fond of you.

299 Grogtank  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:18:47am

Young lizard looking for answers here. This is slightly off topic as it doesn't address the Texas school board report directly. Lately, these creationist reports have become more frequent here on LGF. I'm curious why Intelligent Design and creationism seem to get lumped into the same category here. They are clearly two entirely different things.

I'm certainly not here to defend numbskull politicians. More importantly, I never allow the quotes or misguided policies of these elected idiots define an issue for me. I've not read enough about ID to formulate any reasonable opinion but the little I have read is interesting. If there is validity to ID, is it in danger of being discredited because of politicians using it to push their nutty ideas?

Just looking for answers!

300 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:24:32am

re: #299 Grogtank

Young lizard looking for answers here. This is slightly off topic as it doesn't address the Texas school board report directly. Lately, these creationist reports have become more frequent here on LGF. I'm curious why Intelligent Design and creationism seem to get lumped into the same category here. They are clearly two entirely different things.

I'm certainly not here to defend numbskull politicians. More importantly, I never allow the quotes or misguided policies of these elected idiots define an issue for me. I've not read enough about ID to formulate any reasonable opinion but the little I have read is interesting. If there is validity to ID, is it in danger of being discredited because of politicians using it to push their nutty ideas?


Just looking for answers!

As you read through the resources here you will see that intelligent design is was and always will be the subject of creationism. The intelligent designer is a creator, the people who push this are extreme Christian right, and the agenda is clear.

301 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:25:12am

re: #299 Grogtank

There is no "validity" to "intelligent design." ID is nothing more than creationism dressed up in pseudo-scientific clothing. The people promoting ID want you to believe that it's different from creationism, but this is simply a strategy to get around the Supreme Court's rulings against teaching creationism.

Here's a video on the subject:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

302 Jimmah  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 9:33:39am

re: #296 Basho

Fish with transparent skull and barrel-shaped eyes:
[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

That fish looks like it's ready for inter-planetary travel.

303 Grogtank  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:02:58am

Thanks for the link Charles. I'll stick to science as how along with God as why. This is my own personal Theory of Everything! heheh

304 goodbrue57  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:24:34am

Evolution is a theory. It helps us understand the history of the world, but what practical use does it have? How will believing in evolution make life better now or in the future? I can't see atoms, so I'm not really sure they exist, but the atomic theory behind them allows us to make practical use of the idea. So what's the big deal if people don't believe in evolution? Whether evolution is a fact or not, are there practical applications for it?

305 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:30:19am

Here we go again.

306 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 10:31:35am

A short, incomplete list of practical uses of evolution.

307 Mr Secul  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 11:02:12am

re: #304 goodbrue57

Evolution is a theory. It helps us understand the history of the world, but what practical use does it have? How will believing in evolution make life better now or in the future? I can't see atoms, so I'm not really sure they exist, but the atomic theory behind them allows us to make practical use of the idea. So what's the big deal if people don't believe in evolution? Whether evolution is a fact or not, are there practical applications for it?

I've wondered about that myself. :-)

This link gives some examples.

It has a quote from Jerry Coyne.

As far as I know, there have been only two genuine commercial applications of evolutionary theory. One is the use of 'directed evolution' to produce commercial products (such as enzymes to protect crop plants from herbicides). The other is the clever use of insecticide-free 'pest refuges' to stop herbivorous insects evolving resistance to herbicides containing Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) toxins, a strategy derived from principles of population genetics. There will certainly be more of these to come. And evolutionary algorithms are used in designing computer programs, and may have uses in engineering and economics.

And read the comments. There is a valid comment about fruit flies. We can use them instead of humans in our experiments because we share may similar genes and biochemical pathways. Evolutionary theory was a mind opener towards the possibility. We may never have realized the possibilities if we had believed that humans were fundamentally different from other animals and that common descent wasn't true.

But read the comments.

308 Salamantis  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 11:46:02am

re: #304 goodbrue57

Evolution is a theory. It helps us understand the history of the world, but what practical use does it have? How will believing in evolution make life better now or in the future? I can't see atoms, so I'm not really sure they exist, but the atomic theory behind them allows us to make practical use of the idea. So what's the big deal if people don't believe in evolution? Whether evolution is a fact or not, are there practical applications for it?

Since evolutionary theory, as developed by Darwin and Mendel, inspired Watson & Crick to search for, find, isolate, and identify DNA, the material substrate by which it could be effected, evolutionary theory is directly responsible for the field of genetics, and all the benefits that have accrued from genetic engineering (gene-splicing), including making crops hardier, more blight, parasite and disease resistant, able to grow in a wider variety of climates (warmer, colder, wetter, drier, more barren soil, etc.), and productive of higher yields.

But I wish to address a couple of more particular benefits.

The splicing of a genetic sequence from the daffodil into the rice genome has produced a vitamin A rich grain that prevents millions of poor Southeast Asian children from developing rickets.

The splicing of a genetic sequence from jellyfish into the mouse genome has produced a bioluminescent rodent the induced cancerous tumors of which glow, allowing us to much more effectively study the fine-grained structure and function of malignancy.

309 Mr Secul  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 11:46:21am

re: #296 Basho

And its not the first of April so it must be true.

Even so !?!?

Its like an underwater owl with a helmet on.

How about this then? A fish with mirrors.

Or this? A fish with '4' eyes.

Notice the lens. It has a long and a short axis. The cornea and water have similar refractive indexes so the cornea contributes very little to focusing when in water. This means that the fish needs a thicker lens to compensate. The air exposed cornea does more focusing so the fish needs a thinner lens.

Fish are the most numerous vertebrates but its still amazing how inventive they are in the eye department, and in the breathing department.

There is a fish that swallows air and passes it through its gut to expel the air at the other end.

There is one fish that is an aspirational breather, just like mammals, only it uses smooth muscle in its lungs to exhale and the rebound from its compressible skin to power its inhalations. Most other air breathing fish with lungs use buccal pumping. (Pump air with their mouths)

Fish use buccal pumping, along with movement of the operculum to pump water over their gills.

Amphibians still use buccal pumping. Reptiles use their ribs to change the size of their pleural cavity. When the ribs expand the lungs follow and the reduction of air pressure within the lungs means that higher pressure air blows inwards from outside the body. This is aspirational breathing.

Some reptiles still use forced pumping of air into their lungs, only they use their throats instead of their mouths. Its called gular pumping. They need to do this because of the way they move. Their bodies zig zag like fish do when they swim. They carry their weight on splayed limbs like the early tetrapods, and like Tiktalik did.

Their gait interferes with breathing as they use the same muscles to contract their ribs as they do to move the body from side to side as they walk. (just like fish and amphibians)

Mammals have their limbs placed vertically as opposed to horizontally and their pectoral girdles are slung via muscles from the spine. This disassociates limb movement from breathing and, with the evolution of the muscular diaphragm, makes mammals much better long distance runners.

We see the familiar evolutionary pattern of adaption of existing structures and methods whenever new lifestyles are adopted. We see this in breathing and in locomotion.

310 Sharmuta  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 12:49:13pm

re: #59 jaunte

I already checked that supposed claim. The judge and ACLU had the same quotes because they were quoting deposition testimony. The DI knows most people won't bother to compare or understand the source. Just more intentional lying on the part of the DI- and shameful money grubbing to boot.

311 goodbrue57  Tue, Feb 24, 2009 4:44:33pm

re: #306 Charles

I've always been a believer in evolution, but I couldn't see the harm in letting misguided Bible literalists have their say. Now I can see how important and useful evolutionary theory is. Thank you Charles, Mr Secul and Salamantis.

312 hopperandadropper  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 6:29:16am

Having grown up Methodist (of which not all are creationists but many are), I just realized part of what's going on with these people. They approach everything like it's a Sunday school class where you're parsing the Bible and studying small parts of it in isolation. It's all arguments from authority, trying to derive meaning from something without really looking at the context, etc. Their religion is the major focus of their lives, so they think this is how rational argument takes place. They completely fail to understand the scientific method. They want Sunday school rules for everything, especially because the end result is always supposed to be bringing you closer to Jesus.


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