The Creationist in Charge of Texas Education

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Young earth creationist Don McLeroy, recently reappointed as chairman of the Texas State Board of Education by Republican Governor Rick Perry, is profiled by the Austin-American Statesman: Education board leader set to challenge evolution.

COLLEGE STATION — Some go to church to find answers. Bryan dentist Don McLeroy, chairman of the State Board of Education and point man in the fight over Texas’ science curriculum, goes to teach.

“Oh, this is cool,” he says, launching into a Sunday school lesson that ranges from the importance of sharing the gospel to the existence of God. “Everything that had a beginning we can say had a cause,” he tells his class of fourth-graders at Grace Bible Church. “And now science definitely says that the universe had a beginning. Therefore, the universe had to have a cause. And that cause is God.” …

University of Texas professor David Hillis helped form a group called the 21st Century Science Coalition to combat the effort to include the weaknesses of evolution in the public school curriculum. “If Chairman McLeroy is successful in adding his amendments, it will be a huge embarrassment to Texas, a setback for science education and a terrible precedent for the state boards overriding academic experts in order to further their personal religious or political agendas. The victims will be the schoolchildren of Texas, who represent the future of our state.”

More than 600 Texas science faculty members have signed a petition supporting the group’s effort.

McLeroy — an avid reader of philosophers and theologians, including Christian theologian Norman Geisler and Dutch reformist Abraham Kuyper — said that in his Sunday school lessons, he seeks to give his students the tools they need to form their own arguments. In Texas public school classrooms, McLeroy says, he doesn’t want religion taught. He just wants to let science be science. “If you want to tell (students) there are not weaknesses to evolution and it’s as sure as the Earth going around the sun, it’s not,” he said. “You’ve got to be honest. You ask why I’m so passionate about this? I don’t want America to lose its scientific soul. I feel I am the defender of science.”

Oh brother.

At a recent board meeting, McLeroy read into the record a long list of blatantly distorted, altered, false, and out of context quotes to support his anti-evolution agenda: Collapse of a Texas Quote Mine.

Also see
More Stealth Creationism in Texas Creationism on the Rise in Texas Texas Board of Education Besieged by Evolutionists Texas Creationists Had a Plan B

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449 comments
1 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:00:13pm

Oh gee, just what we need. More challenges to lucid thinking.

2 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:00:29pm

Five bucks on #390

3 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:01:39pm

If Leroy is truly the Defender of Science, we've already lost the war.

4 Gella  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:01:50pm

poor kids, they'll need a lot of therapy in the feature

5 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:02:05pm

As long as the Turtle Stack gets equal time, I've got no problem with it.


//

6 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:02:32pm

"I feel I am the defender of science.”

"Woman, take off your clothes so I can defend your virtue."
/

7 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:03:39pm

re: #6 USBeast

"I feel I am the defender of science.”

"Woman, take off your clothes so I can defend your virtue."
/

Careful Helen Thomas might take you up on that.

8 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:04:07pm
Education board leader set to challenge evolution

/I'll take evolution by KO in the second round for $1000 please

9 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:04:11pm
“If you want to tell (students) there are not weaknesses to evolution and it’s as sure as the Earth going around the sun, it’s not,” he said. “You’ve got to be honest. You ask why I’m so passionate about this? I don’t want America to lose its scientific soul. I feel I am the defender of science.”

More lying for Jesus. There is no other scientific theory that brings the theory of evolution into doubt. The case is, in fact, so strong for evolution that I doubt any alternative theory will ever refute it.

10 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:04:37pm

re: #7 JCM

Careful Helen Thomas might take you up on that.

He said woman. That would be a monstrosity.

11 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:05:21pm

re: #7 JCM

Careful Helen Thomas might take you up on that.

Thanks, I needed an excuse to refill my brain rinse glass.

12 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:06:32pm

Good afternoon Lizards! How is everyone this fine day?

13 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:06:47pm
its scientific soul

That one is making my brain spin. At least he didn't put an apostrophe in it.

14 redc1c4  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:07:05pm

re: #7 JCM

Careful Helen Thomas might take you up on that.

she's living proof that men walked with dinosaurs.

/white smoke

15 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:08:09pm
You ask why I’m so passionate about this? I don’t want America to lose its scientific soul.

No sir, you are passionate because it puts you on the front page of newspapers. In your quest for 5 minutes of fame you not only damage the witness of Jesus whom you claim to serve, but also fail to realize that should your agenda pass, it will forever alter the teachings in the classroom. Have you ever once stopped to think that maybe your crusade to push religion into the science classroom will be used by other religions to push their beliefs? Do you want your child learning the Muslim or Hindu version of creation? My advice to you is to read your Bible, examine your heart and honestly try to admit your true motivations. I believe you will find that the cause of Christ is not on your heart but you are hijacking it to push your own radical agenda. I implore you, stop this nonsense and quit damaging the witness of so many Christians for your own benefit.

16 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:09:20pm
University of Texas professor David Hillis helped form a group called the 21st Century Science Coalition to combat the effort to include the weaknesses of evolution in the public school curriculum. “If Chairman McLeroy is successful in adding his amendments, it will be a huge embarrassment to Texas, a setback for science education and a terrible precedent for the state boards overriding academic experts in order to further their personal religious or political agendas. The victims will be the schoolchildren of Texas, who represent the future of our state.”

More than 600 Texas science faculty members have signed a petition supporting the group’s effort.

Scientists in Iowa have likewise protested the creationist legislation:

Iowa faculty decry antievolution bill

Over two hundred faculty members at Iowa's colleges and universities have endorsed a statement calling on Iowa's legislature to reject House File 183, the so-called Evolution Academic Freedom Act. Responding to the bill's contention that "current law does not expressly protect the right of instructors to objectively present scientific information relevant to the full range of scientific views regarding chemical and biological evolution," the statement explains, "It is misleading to claim that there is any controversy or dissent within the vast majority of the scientific community regarding the scientific validity of evolutionary theory. Since there is no real dissent within the scientific community ... 'academic freedom' for alternative theories is simply a mechanism to introduce religious or non-scientific doctrines into our science curriculum."

Scientists and those who support real science education need to keep the pressure up on these lawmakers.

17 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:09:57pm

Bah .. this creationism doesnt affect me. I'm going out and taking my pet dinosaur for a walk and then feeding Nessie in the Loch.

18 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:10:47pm

re: #15 Jetpilot1101

This reminds me of the difference between those who are devoted and those who are fanatics: for the devoted, they are on God's side, but for the fanatic, God is on their side.

19 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:11:43pm

re: #18 Salamantis

This reminds me of the difference between those who are devoted and those who are fanatics: for the devoted, they are on God's side, but for the fanatic, God is on their side.

May I borrow that comment, that is an excellent way of putting it!

20 GodsOwnGoober  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:12:17pm

Some people give us young earth creationists such a bad name. Pitty.

21 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:12:18pm

re: #19 Jetpilot1101

May I borrow that comment, that is an excellent way of putting it!

Feel free! :~)

22 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:12:24pm

re: #18 Salamantis

This reminds me of the difference between those who are devoted and those who are fanatics: for the devoted, they are on God's side, but for the fanatic, God is on their side.

Never heard that one before..Nice insight

23 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:12:41pm

wow, since when did we all agree the universe had a beginning


guess i didn't get that memo

24 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:12:45pm

The National Center for Science Education: Taking Action

On the right sidebar you can see a list of states, including Texas, where you can get involved to help stop this pseudo-scientific agenda.

25 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:13:06pm

re: #12 HoosierHoops

Good afternoon Lizards! How is everyone this fine day?

wondering if I should fix some supper, back there in the kitchen, or just stay here at the computer.

26 DEZes  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:13:25pm

re: #18 Salamantis
That will make a top 10. ;)

27 Gella  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:13:38pm

re: #23 spacejesus

wow, since when did we all agree the universe had a beginning

guess i didn't get that memo

are we going back to flat Earth theory?
\\\

28 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:14:48pm

re: #18 Salamantis

This reminds me of the difference between those who are devoted and those who are fanatics: for the devoted, they are on God's side, but for the fanatic, God is on their side.

I changed the quote in my profile this morning to read: If we could prove God existed, we'd just fight about Him more.

You basically summed up why I feel that's so.

29 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:14:57pm

re: #27 Gella

are we going back to flat Earth theory?
\

No .. Copernicus was wrong. The world rotates around the Largest Mars Bar in history, and the Sun is really Apollo in drag.

30 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:15:37pm

re: #18 Salamantis

This reminds me of the difference between those who are devoted and those who are fanatics: for the devoted, they are on God's side, but for the fanatic, God is on their side.

Excellent!

31 DEZes  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:15:37pm

re: #27 Gella

are we going back to flat Earth theory?
\


It still has its follerwers, believe it or not.
You just can't fix STUPID

32 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:16:19pm

re: #31 DEZes

It still has its follerwers, believe it or not.
You just can't fix STUPID

Nothing that a double barrel 12 gage cant fix.

33 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:16:21pm

Are these people competent enough to run an economy or set the science agenda for the country. The Republicans may be back in congress in a few years but are they ready?

34 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:16:39pm

re: #24 Sharmuta

The National Center for Science Education: Taking Action

On the right sidebar you can see a list of states, including Texas, where you can get involved to help stop this pseudo-scientific agenda.

Sadly nothing in Washington State, the home of the Discovery Institute.

35 Gella  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:17:33pm

re: #31 DEZes

It still has its follerwers, believe it or not.
You just can't fix STUPID

excuse me but wtf? ppl are insane, on the other hand, i want to ask question to creationist: have u ever met G-D personally and he told u all the stories about ur creations? u know like parents tell u how u were conceived?
P.S. i dont have anything against religion

36 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:18:08pm

re: #24 Sharmuta

Wait a minute, I don't see California on that list. From the many comments I've read on many right leaning blogs, I thought my state was supposed to suck at everything.

/teh interwebs lied to me!

37 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:18:16pm

re: #23 spacejesus

wow, since when did we all agree the universe had a beginning

guess i didn't get that memo

Space / Time..... The clock started at the big bang. Our concept of time is a dimension of this universe.

38 Kragar  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:18:40pm
The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.

-Thomas Aquinas

39 DEZes  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:18:53pm

re: #32 Buster Bunny
OK!

40 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:18:57pm
Bryan dentist Don McLeroy, chairman of the State Board of Education and point man in the fight over Texas’ science curriculum, goes to teach.

I'm no theologian, but as a dentist perhaps Mr. McLeroy can explain why - as I understand it - God ordered only the eating of plants in the Garden of Eden and didn't allow meat until after the Flood, but nonetheless saw fit to gift us with incisors and canines in the first place? Just good planning?

41 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:19:28pm

re: #25 pre-Boomer Marine brat

wondering if I should fix some supper, back there in the kitchen, or just stay here at the computer.

Stay here.I think the Goddess will be walking in the door any minute now.. I love reading you guys banter and links

42 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:19:32pm

re: #37 JCM

Space / Time..... The clock started at the big bang. Our concept of time is a dimension of this universe.

My concept of time is a nice new Rado watch :)

43 jaunte  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:19:32pm
Growing up, McLeroy and his family — which included his mother, engineer father and twin brother — attended a Methodist church in Dallas every Sunday, but he wasn't overly involved.

McLeroy said that it wasn't until he met his future wife, Nan, that he decided to rethink his faith. She said she would date him only if he were a Christian.

Hmm.

44 Gella  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:20:10pm

re: #43 jaunte

Hmm.

sounds like shout gun dating to me

45 Neutral President  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:20:52pm

re: #36 Slumbering Behemoth

Wait a minute, I don't see California on that list. From the many comments I've read on many right leaning blogs, I thought my state was supposed to suck at everything.

/teh interwebs lied to me!

No California is too busy making sure the terms "marriage", "mother", and "father" don't appear in textbooks. Can't have the homosexual couples and their adopted children or relatives being offended now can we?

46 Cato the Elder  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:21:14pm

Testing post from new iPhone. Please ignore.

47 DEZes  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:21:26pm

re: #35 Gella
I about fell outta my chair a fer years ago when I found out about that site, its fun reading though if your in need of a few good laughs.

48 Kragar  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:22:05pm

re: #46 Cato the Elder

Testing post from new iPhone. Please ignore.

No, thats just what you expect us to do.

I'm on to you.

49 Racer X  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:22:50pm

re: #23 spacejesus

wow, since when did we all agree the universe had a beginning

guess i didn't get that memo

See Hubble.

50 Randall Gross  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:23:04pm

The religious philosophers he reads are moderate Calvinists, not dominionists but they do have leanings that way (e.g. Kuyper really wanted one vote per head of household, and was a monarchist)

Geisler is very much into biblical inerrancy however:

Geisler is also noted for his philosophical approach to theology. His four volume Systematic Theology offers a blend of philosophy and biblical exegesis. Theologically, Geisler is a conservative evangelical. He has dedicated much effort to the cause of biblical inerrancy, and was a contributor to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. Together with William Nix, Geisler wrote General Introduction to the Bible, which is still considered to be a textbook for evangelical scholars.[citation needed] Geisler also left the Evangelical Theological Society in 2003, after it did not expel Clark Pinnock and Greg Boyd, who both advocate open theism.[1] He also testified in McLean v. Arkansas, defending creationism.[2]

51 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:24:40pm

Yes, logic, it's amazing how it escapes some people. From Simon R. Green's book "Hell to Pay - Tales from the Nightside - Book 7," here is a dialog between detective John Taylor and Chuck, the g-d of Creationism...

---

"Chuck, you're the g-d of creationism... so, that means you don't believe in evolution, right?"

"Yes, but..."

"Your belief started out as Creationism, but it has now become Intelligent Design, right?"

"Yes, but..."

"So your argument has evolved, thus disproving your own argument."

"Oh bugger" said Chuck, as he disappeared into a puff of logic.

"Nice one" said Sister Josephine. "I would have just shoved a holy hand-grenade up his arse and pulled the pin. Heretics"

---

OT - I recommend all the Nightside books, if you like fantasy and the supernatural mixed with a very funny noir detective character, John Taylor.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

52 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:26:49pm

re: #37 JCM

Space / Time..... The clock started at the big bang. Our concept of time is a dimension of this universe.

Hi JCM! There is an alternate theory about Membranes and a collision between the branes causing the big bang...
The math works out in string theory with the mathematical 11 dimensions it calls for.

53 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:27:41pm

re: #46 Cato the Elder

Testing post from new iPhone. Please ignore.

Jealous! woooooo nice phone Cato

54 walahi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:27:41pm

Sheesh...Can nothing go right?

Gift-giving disasters, clench fists, botched translations, conservatism in a rut, science under attack, stock market in a slump...
Well I found this vid and it brought a smile to my face....

Sometimes its good to be silly

55 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:28:51pm

re: #52 HoosierHoops

Hi JCM! There is an alternate theory about Membranes and a collision between the branes causing the big bang...
The math works out in string theory with the mathematical 11 dimensions it calls for.

Last word I read said 32 (or so) dimensions, all but the 4 space-time dimensions twisted and compacted up into undetectability.

56 rightymouse  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:29:06pm

This is the kind of silliness that happens when a marvelous archeological site is discovered and someone uses the Bible as an explanation as opposed to just citing scientific facts.

57 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:29:42pm

re: #52 HoosierHoops

Hi JCM! There is an alternate theory about Membranes and a collision between the branes causing the big bang...
The math works out in string theory with the mathematical 11 dimensions it calls for.

Does it call for pan-dimensional beings that appear to as mice?

String theory has some interesting stuff going on.

58 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:29:43pm

Whenever I feel tempted to think that I have perfect knowledge of the unknowable, I must step back for a moment and ask myself what in the heck was I thinking. While I believe that the beginning of life involved a creator, I have no specific idea what the mechanics may have been.

I have theological texts that have been passed through history that allow me to discover the nature of God and His being, but they in no way cover all of the nuts and bolts of how He may be making things work.

I also am willing to admit that I may be wrong if evidence to the contrary presents itself.

A religious system that denies documented scientific evidence is difficult to support logically.

Joe

59 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:29:48pm

re: #52 HoosierHoops

Hi JCM! There is an alternate theory about Membranes and a collision between the branes causing the big bang...
The math works out in string theory with the mathematical 11 dimensions it calls for.

Yeah, but string theory is a mathematical castle constructed in theoretical air, lacking not only empirical evidence, but, so far, any suggestion of a conceivable experimental avenue that could provide it. Which is why I consider it to be a conjecture or hypothesis, rather than a theory.

60 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:33:22pm

re: #56 rightymouse

This is the kind of silliness that happens when a marvelous archeological site is discovered and someone uses the Bible as an explanation as opposed to just citing scientific facts.

Obviously a alien intergalactic pit stop.
/

61 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:34:01pm

re: #59 Salamantis

Yeah, but string theory is a mathematical castle constructed in theoretical air, lacking not only empirical evidence, but, so far, any suggestion of a conceivable experimental avenue that could provide it. Which is why I consider it to be a conjecture or hypothesis, rather than a theory.

Yea..It's hard to get your head around..But the Math is eloquent...
I like the idea behind the theory..But you are absolutely correct no real evidence to back it up

62 rightymouse  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:34:05pm

re: #60 JCM

Obviously a alien intergalactic pit stop.
/

And they brought their intergalactic pets with them too. :)

63 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:34:10pm

re: #59 Salamantis

Yeah, but string theory is a mathematical castle constructed in theoretical air, lacking not only empirical evidence, but, so far, any suggestion of a conceivable experimental avenue that could provide it. Which is why I consider it to be a conjecture or hypothesis, rather than a theory.

Yes, but the math is intriguing.

64 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:34:29pm

Theoretical physics buffs here might find this to be interesting:

Loop Quantum Gravity: Getting Closer to Reality
The standard model of physics and loop quantum gravity may be compatible after all, as theoreticians have found a way to get gauge transformations into the loop.
By Chris Lee
[Link: arstechnica.com...]

65 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:34:45pm

re: #56 rightymouse

This is the kind of silliness that happens when a marvelous archeological site is discovered and someone uses the Bible as an explanation as opposed to just citing scientific facts.

Gobekli Tepe is one of the most amazing sites ever found, and there will be decades of study ahead, but this story is so typical of "selling" archeology like it was a new episode of Survivor.

And there is very little publish yet on this site, so the press will be full of stories like this, trying to find something to say about the site.

Search Google for Gobekli Tepe and adviod the articles about the Garden of Eden and UFO's.

You will be amazed at the pictures.

I actually have wondered if some aspects of the site itself has been faked. I have a 30 year arm chair degree in archeology of this area, and some of this site doesn't quite make sense, as of yet.

66 Mike in Georgia  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:34:56pm

re: #55 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well the aliens from the planet 10 traveled through the eighth
dimension. Buckaroo invented his turbo thruster to catch them.

(one of the worst movies of all time)

67 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:35:11pm

re: #62 rightymouse

And they brought their intergalactic pets with them too. :)

I hope they obeyed the leash and pooper scooper laws.

68 wrenchwench  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:35:27pm

re: #59 Salamantis

How complex can it be?

69 DEZes  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:35:39pm

re: #60 JCM

Obviously a alien intergalactic pit stop.
/


If they did just a lil deeper, they will find the STARGATE. ;}

70 Racer X  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:35:44pm

A Catholic priest - Georges Lemaître - proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom.

Edwin Hubble confirmed this while studying the stars through the Hooker Telescope - located atop Mt. Wilson in Los Angeles.

71 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:35:56pm

re: #64 Salamantis

Theoretical physics buffs here might find this to be interesting:

Loop Quantum Gravity: Getting Closer to Reality
The standard model of physics and loop quantum gravity may be compatible after all, as theoreticians have found a way to get gauge transformations into the loop.
By Chris Lee
[Link: arstechnica.com...]

Wow..Great site! thank you..Bookmarked!

72 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:36:14pm

re: #61 HoosierHoops

Yea..It's hard to get your head around..But the Math is eloquent...
I like the idea behind the theory..But you are absolutely correct no real evidence to back it up

re: #63 JCM

Yes, but the math is intriguing.


I find this math to be both eloquent and intriguing (not to mention elegant and beautiful):

[Link: arxiv.org...]

73 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:37:09pm

re: #56 rightymouse

This is the kind of silliness that happens when a marvelous archeological site is discovered and someone uses the Bible as an explanation as opposed to just citing scientific facts.

Who in th' heck IS that idiot who wrote that?!

74 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:37:39pm
“If you want to tell (students) there are not weaknesses to evolution and it’s as sure as the Earth going around the sun, it’s not”

These folks seem to think that if they repeat their mantra enough times that it makes it true. They have no science, no evidence, absolutely nothing to support their claims about evolution except distortions and lies. "Weaknesses" has replaced "gaps" in their lexicon, but it doesn't change the fact that where there are "weaknesses" the science of evolution is strengthening the "gaps" every day. The talking points of creationists are where the real "weaknesses" are.

75 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:37:52pm

re: #60 JCM

Obviously a alien intergalactic pit stop.
/

Actually, the carvings on the ancient stones clearly show vultures creating the Earth, disproving your infidel "Turtle Stackism".

/

76 chicagodudewhotrades  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:37:53pm

re: #54 walahi


I learned something interesting about Hillery's botched gift to the Russians. Not only was the word 'reset' mistranslated but it was in Latin Script, not Cyrillic. So there isn't 1 person at State Dept. who speaks/reads Russian anymore? Good job.

77 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:38:08pm

re: #70 Racer X

Edwin Hubble confirmed this while studying the stars through the Hooker Telescope - located atop Mt. Wilson in Los Angeles.

I've got one of those, always pointed at heavenly bodies. And sometimes I use it to look at stars, too.
////

78 Kragar  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:38:34pm

re: #66 Mike in Georgia

Well the aliens from the planet 10 traveled through the eighth
dimension. Buckaroo invented his turbo thruster to catch them.

(one of the worst movies of all time)

It was an overthruster. get it right

79 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:39:28pm
he tells his class of fourth-graders at Grace Bible Church. “And now science definitely says that the universe had a beginning. Therefore, the universe had to have a cause. And that cause is God.” ...

I've heard this line of thinking before. Once it's decided that "God" is the beginning of something, anything that contradicts that mindset is usually referred to something that is not of "God." Given that we're dealing with fundamentalist Christian social conservatives here, it becomes rather easy to determine what is not of "God."

This is a religious war: the theocratic-minded Fundamentalists against everyone else.

80 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:39:55pm

re: #66 Mike in Georgia

Well the aliens from the planet 10 traveled through the eighth
dimension. Buckaroo invented his turbo thruster to catch them.

(one of the worst movies of all time)

What?! It was spoof and as such an artistic triumph! If it was on tonight, I'd watch it. Check your Serious settings.

81 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:40:09pm

“Oh, this is cool,” he says, launching into a Sunday school lesson

Dear Lord,
Please instruct your people to stop trying to be cool.
Both you and I know, Dear Lord, that if you have to try, you ain't.
Amen

oh....ps Lord, Open their eyes! PLEASE!

82 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:40:13pm

re: #70 Racer X

A Catholic priest - Georges Lemaître - proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom.

Edwin Hubble confirmed this while studying the stars through the Hooker Telescope - located atop Mt. Wilson in Los Angeles.

A Catholic monk - Gregor Mendel - sussed out the mathematical model by means of which dominant and recessive genes pass on their traits to succeeding generations, thuse complementing Darwin and completing the first pproximation of the standard theory of evolution.

And the biosphere (he called it the noosphere) was first proposed by Catholic theologian Teilhard de Chardin.

Those Catholic scientists do get around...;~)

83 opnion  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:40:38pm

re: #76 chicagodudewhotrades

I learned something interesting about Hillery's botched gift to the Russians. Not only was the word 'reset' mistranslated but it was in Latin Script, not Cyrillic. So there isn't 1 person at State Dept. who speaks/reads Russian anymore? Good job.

Oh man, this whole Obama thing is so amateurish.
Barry is the guy who knows so little about how things work in general, but he seems so certain that people check reason at the door.

84 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:40:38pm

re: #49 Racer X

See Hubble.


yep, the universe is expanding.

85 Mike in Georgia  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:40:51pm

re: #78 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Yes sir. It's been a while since I've seen it and I'm old and
forgetful.

86 albusteve  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:41:22pm

re: #80 USBeast

What?! It was spoof and as such an artistic triumph! If it was on tonight, I'd watch it. Check your Serious settings.

artisic triumph?....whoa

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:41:49pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

I'm no archeologist at all, but I do know a tiny bit about Anatolia. When I first read of the 12,000-year-old dating, my antennae went WAAAAAAY up!

/I call very-tentative bullshit

88 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:41:50pm

re: #84 SpaceJesus

yep, the universe is expanding.

Is it really expanding or just getting fatter?

89 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:42:12pm

re: #52 HoosierHoops

Hi JCM! There is an alternate theory about Membranes and a collision between the branes causing the big bang...
The math works out in string theory with the mathematical 11 dimensions it calls for.


this.

90 rightymouse  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:42:30pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Gobekli Tepe is one of the most amazing sites ever found, and there will be decades of study ahead, but this story is so typical of "selling" archeology like it was a new episode of Survivor.

And there is very little publish yet on this site, so the press will be full of stories like this, trying to find something to say about the site.

Search Google for Gobekli Tepe and adviod the articles about the Garden of Eden and UFO's.

You will be amazed at the pictures.

I actually have wondered if some aspects of the site itself has been faked. I have a 30 year arm chair degree in archeology of this area, and some of this site doesn't quite make sense, as of yet.

I check out new achaeology discoveries on a routine basis for my son's Social Studies current events. Am fascinated by this one and pray that it is not faked. But I must confess that the Biblical references on what should have been a straightforward "LOOK WHAT WE FOUND!" article, had my radar going off - and not in a good way.

91 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:42:35pm

re: #53 HoosierHoops

Jealous! woooooo nice phone Cato

You can see Cato's iphone too?

92 albusteve  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:42:40pm

re: #87 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm no archeologist at all, but I do know a tiny bit about Anatolia. When I first read of the 12,000-year-old dating, my antennae went WAAAAAAY up!

/I call very-tentative bullshit

why?...

93 Neutral President  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:43:20pm

re: #59 Salamantis

Yeah, but string theory is a mathematical castle constructed in theoretical air, lacking not only empirical evidence, but, so far, any suggestion of a conceivable experimental avenue that could provide it. Which is why I consider it to be a conjecture or hypothesis, rather than a theory.

I'm of the same opinion as you on this subject and I'm concerned about how much attention and more to the point, research money is going down what for the moment is basically, no pun intended, a black hole. While less pie-in-the-sky, and less exciting avenues of physics research get the shaft.

M-Theory is basically a framework from out of which a real theory of quantum gravity can be constructed, but right now physicists have no idea where or how to start on that. It's just mathematical masturbation for now, and really has only benefited mathematicians.

94 rightymouse  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:43:24pm

re: #67 JCM

I hope they obeyed the leash and pooper scooper laws.

lol!

95 Randall Gross  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:45:05pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Gobekli Tepe is one of the most amazing sites ever found, and there will be decades of study ahead, but this story is so typical of "selling" archeology like it was a new episode of Survivor.

And there is very little publish yet on this site, so the press will be full of stories like this, trying to find something to say about the site.

Search Google for Gobekli Tepe and adviod the articles about the Garden of Eden and UFO's.

You will be amazed at the pictures.

I actually have wondered if some aspects of the site itself has been faked. I have a 30 year arm chair degree in archeology of this area, and some of this site doesn't quite make sense, as of yet.

I thought I saw some non hellenistic pre-parthian empire influence in some of the glyphs.

96 DEZes  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:45:10pm

re: #88 USBeast

Is it really expanding or just getting fatter?


Huh?

97 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:45:32pm

re: #91 debutaunt

You can see Cato's iphone too?

Not only that..I took it..and he can't have it back! LOL

98 opnion  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:46:46pm

re: #97 HoosierHoops

Not only that..I took it..and he can't have it back! LOL

Hoops , did you see UNC stick it to Duke yesterday?

99 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:47:39pm

re: #97 HoosierHoops

I have to put on glasses just to use my computer. An iPhone or a blackberry is impossible.

100 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:47:43pm

re: #86 albusteve

artisic triumph?....whoa

Oh for...It's fun. It's supposed to fun. It's silly. It's supposed to be silly. It accomplished what its creators set out to do; entertain and amuse. I laughed through the whole movie.

101 Kragar  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:47:49pm

Everyone who rags on Buckaroo Banzai as being a bad film has obviously never seen Megaforce.

102 Racer X  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:48:00pm

re: #77 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh.

I botched that whole post. I was trying to remember a show I watched last week on the history channel - The Universe - that went over some really interesting history around early astronomy and how it evolved. Great stuff.

103 rightymouse  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:48:01pm

re: #73 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Who in th' heck IS that idiot who wrote that?!

Tom Knox. He's also the author of "The Genesis Secret", so it's not surprising that he would try and twist what may be a legitimate and important historical find by weaving Genesis into his narrative. It's why I thought the article was a good example of science vs creationist fanatic.

104 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:49:31pm

re: #98 opnion

Hoops , did you see UNC stick it to Duke yesterday?

I saw that..But I'm still picking Pitt to Win the National Championship...
But don't take my word for it..I'm always wrong..
But Pitt is big and tough..they are warriors!

105 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:49:39pm

Here I have my bun all mayo-ed, and not a slice of creationist troll butt steak to be found!

106 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:49:43pm

re: #88 USBeast

Is it really expanding or just getting fatter?

You mean fluffyer?

107 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:49:43pm

re: #92 albusteve

why?...

(repeating that I am NOT! an archaeologist) ... it's several thousand years prior to the earliest substantial settlement of the region which I'm aware of, and the carvings indicate something very substantial, over a great deal of time.

108 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:50:07pm

re: #105 Salamantis

Here I have my bun all mayo-ed, and not a slice of creationist troll butt steak to be found!

Patience. They will come.

109 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:50:07pm

re: #88 USBeast

Is it really expanding or just getting fatter?

The universe isn't expanding.
Reality is shrinking.

110 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:50:15pm

OK guys, I know I have been busy for a while and not able to monitor the site every day, but it used to be that you could stir up a good ID vs Evolution spitting match by now. What is the deal?

111 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:50:49pm

re: #110 vibemanjoe

OK guys, I know I have been busy for a while and not able to monitor the site every day, but it used to be that you could stir up a good ID vs Evolution spitting match by now. What is the deal?

Creationists fear Salamantis.

113 opnion  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:51:08pm

re: #104 HoosierHoops

I saw that..But I'm still picking Pitt to Win the National Championship...
But don't take my word for it..I'm always wrong..
But Pitt is big and tough..they are warriors!

Yeah, Pitt will be right in there. UConn will be tough too.

114 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:51:09pm

re: #99 vibemanjoe

I have to put on glasses just to use my computer. An iPhone or a blackberry is impossible.

I can't live without my BB...People tease me about it.But while they sit in a cube during the summer..I get to work from the Golf course..

115 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:51:31pm

re: #103 rightymouse

Thanks.
I'm grateful I knew nothing about him.
/gaaaaaaaaah!

116 albusteve  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:51:58pm

re: #107 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(repeating that I am NOT! an archaeologist) ... it's several thousand years prior to the earliest substantial settlement of the region which I'm aware of, and the carvings indicate something very substantial, over a great deal of time.

I'm reading some stuff on it now...never heard of it til now....yowza!.....sounds like a great mystery to solve

117 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:52:24pm

re: #105 Salamantis

Here I have my bun all mayo-ed, and not a slice of creationist troll butt steak to be found!

Your bun is mayo-ed?
The chair must be quite a mess.

118 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:52:55pm

re: #112 Charles

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple? %P% Photo Gallery %P% Smithsonian.com

They seemed to have had a fondness for lizards.

119 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:53:12pm

re: #114 HoosierHoops

I read my email when I get home/back to the office. If it is important, my wife calls me. I answer the phone if I remember to take it out of the car.

120 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:53:14pm

re: #117 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Your bun is mayo-ed?
The chair must be quite a mess.

And my sesame seeds are flaking off...;~)

121 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:54:01pm

re: #112 Charles

Thanks Charles .. great pics on the site!

But there is no reason to associate what is a magnificent archaeological find with a Biblical sequence .. UNLESS it can be actually substiantiated with facts .. inscriptions or .. evidence.

You know .. evidence .. the one thing that seems to skew creationists every time.

122 albusteve  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:54:02pm

re: #112 Charles

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple? %P% Photo Gallery %P% Smithsonian.com

thanks for that....

123 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:54:12pm

re: #106 Soona'

You mean fluffyer?

You might have something there! Perhaps the "dark matter" proposed by physicists is really "fluff". It could be anything from dryer lint to dog hair.

124 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:54:14pm

Sal- have you gotten to the Coyne book yet?

125 rightymouse  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:54:35pm

re: #112 Charles

Gorgeous photos! Thank you so much for that link!

126 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:54:35pm

re: #116 albusteve

I'm reading some stuff on it now...never heard of it til now....yowza!.....sounds like a great mystery to solve

Yeah, I'm not saying it's not fascinating. It certainly is. I'm saying the 12,000 year dating sounds far-fetched, based on what little I know.

127 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:55:16pm

re: #120 Salamantis

And my sesame seeds are flaking off...;~)

will resist
will resist
will resist
will resist !

128 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:55:21pm

re: #124 Sharmuta

Sal- have you gotten to the Coyne book yet?

No, not yet. A friend of mine ordered it, and he's gonna loan it to me when he finishes it. How is it?

129 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:55:34pm

re: #111 Sharmuta

Creationists fear Salamantis.

Oh, hell.
Many non-creationists also fear Salamantis.

130 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:55:39pm

re: #126 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, that puts it before the creation.
/sarc

131 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:55:40pm

re: #128 Salamantis

Really good.

132 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:56:18pm

re: #123 USBeast

You might have something there! Perhaps the "dark matter" proposed by physicists is really "fluff". It could be anything from dryer lint to dog hair.

Or growing populations of Klingons.

133 albusteve  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:56:20pm

re: #126 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, I'm not saying it's not fascinating. It certainly is. I'm saying the 12,000 year dating sounds far-fetched, based on what little I know.

the world is probably full of mysterious stuff yet to be found...we are still pretty small...who knows what lurks out there and I love this kind of thing

134 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:56:30pm

re: #95 Thanos

I thought I saw some non hellenistic pre-parthian empire influence in some of the glyphs.

That was my biggest problem with the site. You probably understand, but it's hard to explain. I seen artifact after artifact, glyphs after glyphs, standing stones after standing stones and so on.

Something just doesn't look right about this site. The site itself looks like it's ancient, but it appears to have be peppered with a lot of fanciful pieces.

And I can't find much more on the site except what has been initially released by the German.

IMHO.

135 Racer X  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:57:57pm

The Universe

136 albusteve  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:58:03pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

That was my biggest problem with the site. You probably understand, but it's hard to explain. I seen artifact after artifact, glyphs after glyphs, standing stones after standing stones and so on.

Something just doesn't look right about this site. The site itself looks like it's ancient, but it appears to have be peppered with a lot of fanciful pieces.

And I can't find much more on the site except what has been initially released by the German.

IMHO.

it looks like a sculpture garden to me...

137 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:58:34pm

re: #111 Sharmuta

Creationists fear Salamantis.

re: #129 reine.de.tout

Oh, hell.
Many non-creationists also fear Salamantis.

Who? Li'l ole me?

Why I'm a cuddly teddy bear...;~)

138 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:58:35pm

I think its remarkable that scientists spent hours in the laboratory trying to carve ancient looking structures out of stone, then chemo-dated them so that they were going to date from 12,000 years ago .. then buried them on top of a mountain to be discovered !

/mad theories abound

139 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:58:42pm

re: #133 albusteve

the world is probably full of mysterious stuff yet to be found...we are still pretty small...who knows what lurks out there and I love this kind of thing

Full indeed !

140 Randall Gross  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 3:58:58pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

That was my biggest problem with the site. You probably understand, but it's hard to explain. I seen artifact after artifact, glyphs after glyphs, standing stones after standing stones and so on.

Something just doesn't look right about this site. The site itself looks like it's ancient, but it appears to have be peppered with a lot of fanciful pieces.

And I can't find much more on the site except what has been initially released by the German.

IMHO.

Yeah, I am thinking there are layers of influence seen here. The disproportionality of some of the carvings are definitely pre-Alexandrian, but there are parts where there might be some Hellenistic influence, if it's for real then it evolved and was reworked over time I think. That's not highly unusual for temples.

141 Randall Gross  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:00:29pm

/pimf "disproportionalities"

142 Neutral President  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:00:30pm

re: #101 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Laugh while you can Monkey Boy!

143 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:00:37pm

re: #137 Salamantis

Who? Li'l ole me?

Why I'm a cuddly teddy bear...;~)

Who has a kinky thing about mayo-ing !
/I fear Salamantis! ... :D

144 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:02:02pm

re: #140 Thanos

Yeah, I am thinking there are layers of influence seen here. The disproportionality of some of the carvings are definitely pre-Alexandrian, but there are parts where there might be some Hellenistic influence, if it's for real then it evolved and was reworked over time I think. That's not highly unusual for temples.

I see some significant 'Watchmen' influence .. with a little bit of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' and possibly 'Hellraiser'.

146 UberInfidel67  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:02:35pm

Kragar...a new used car lot just went up in the end of town. It reads RAGAR cars. Since it is end the end of my town and the bridge to the next town, I am thinking of getting drunk and adding some letters to it to read KRAGARSTAN. Whaddayathink? lol

147 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:02:54pm

Sal- I'll just say that at this point I was a little disappointed that Lenski's research wasn't as complete in the book as we've learned recently. I figure there was a time gap in the manuscript and the research, but Coyne's gone over a number of other topics that I've found highly enlightening as well as entertaining. None of it has been too far over my head for me to be unable to grasp. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

148 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:03:12pm

re: #137 Salamantis

Who? Li'l ole me?

Why I'm a cuddly teddy bear...;~)

I am a creationist and I am not afraid. I love to discuss issues with folks I disagree with. The weaknesses in my knowledge are exposed and corrected making me smarter and stronge.

Hopefully, I can occasionally provide similar therapy in the other direction, but it is not a necessity.

149 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:03:14pm

You go over to a friend's, stand around in his yard and talk to him, and then leave and realize that you stepped in the dog sh*t in his yard? And you soon realize that it is a particularly fragrant kind that is particularly difficult to get off of your shoe?

So it gets on your floor mats and the shoes get left outside till the weekend when you can clean them off? And you realize that you can't really complain to your friend that much if you want to keep your friendship?

That is how I feel about the whole issue of young earth creationism in the Republican party - a steaming, stinking pile that follows me around.

150 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:03:31pm

re: #145 IslandLibertarian

Coincidence? You be the judge.

ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA

151 irongrampa  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:03:47pm

re: #54 walahi

Smile maker for sure.

Can't find enough words to describe the feeling of pride in these guys.

152 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:04:17pm

re: #147 Sharmuta

Sal- I'll just say that at this point I was a little disappointed that Lenski's research wasn't as complete in the book as we've learned recently. I figure there was a time gap in the manuscript and the research, but Coyne's gone over a number of other topics that I've found highly enlightening as well as entertaining. None of it has been too far over my head for me to be unable to grasp. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Does he get into artifactual retroviral DNA?

153 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:04:46pm

re: #150 Sharmuta

ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA

That's why they're renaming it Eurabia. To fool the Elder Races.

154 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:04:46pm

re: #144 Buster Bunny

I see some significant 'Watchmen' influence .. with a little bit of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' and possibly 'Hellraiser'.

The only name I can barely discern has something to do with a "Kilroy".
/

155 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:05:08pm

re: #152 Salamantis

Does he get into artifactual retroviral DNA?

Only a brief mention.

156 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:05:14pm

re: #148 vibemanjoe

I am a creationist and I am not afraid. I love to discuss issues with folks I disagree with. The weaknesses in my knowledge are exposed and corrected making me smarter and stronge.

Hopefully, I can occasionally provide similar therapy in the other direction, but it is not a necessity.

Oops...Stronger not stronge. Proofread Joe, proofread. (Hit head with palm, forcefully.)

157 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:05:30pm

re: #132 Soona'

Or growing populations of Klingons.

There are several body cleansers that will eliminate Klingons.

158 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:06:03pm

re: #154 Soona'

The only name I can barely discern has something to do with a "Kilroy".
/

Lol .. of course .. I saw the inscription on the rivets !

KILROY WAS 'ERE 12000 BC

159 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:06:21pm

re: #157 USBeast

There are several body cleansers that will eliminate Klingons.

If ya wanna piss off a Klingon, call him a dingleberry.

160 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:07:42pm

re: #154 Soona'

The only name I can barely discern has something to do with a "Kilroy".
/

Isn't that an aerosol shaving cream can on the last one?

161 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:08:51pm

Sal- I've really enjoyed the chapter on sexual selection and sexual dimorphisms.

162 vibemanjoe  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:10:06pm

I'll check in later. I have got to catch a plane. Play nice.

163 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:10:20pm

re: #161 Sharmuta

Sal- I've really enjoyed the chapter on sexual selection and sexual dimorphisms.

You would...;~)

164 Neutral President  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:10:41pm

re: #149 karmic_inquisitor

Best analogy ever.

165 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:10:49pm

re: #163 Salamantis

Heh

166 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:11:09pm

I'm glad someone ELSE said that to Sharm!

167 USBeast  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:11:42pm

re: #159 Salamantis

If ya wanna piss off a Klingon, call him a dingleberry.

If I'm gonna piss off a Klingon like that it will be at long range from the sending end of a phaser with the message: "Eat death, Dingleberry."

168 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:12:18pm

re: #161 Sharmuta

Sal- I've really enjoyed the chapter on sexual selection and sexual dimorphisms.

Hey, I survived a whole book on that once in biological anthropology class. The Woman That Never Evolved.

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:12:28pm

re: #36 Slumbering Behemoth

Wait a minute, I don't see California on that list. From the many comments I've read on many right leaning blogs, I thought my state was supposed to suck at everything.

/teh interwebs lied to me!

Actually, our lack of being on the list proves that we suck, because if we weren't secularist liberals who don't go to church or cling to guns (they never met my relatives in Turlock apparently), then we'd have crazy creationists.

//////////////////////////////

170 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:12:47pm

re: #162 vibemanjoe

I'll check in later. I have got to catch a plane. Play nice.

What are you using for bait?

171 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:13:26pm

re: #160 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Isn't that an aerosol shaving cream can on the last one?

Either that or one of the first bottles of "Summer's Eve".

172 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:13:31pm

re: #161 Sharmuta

Sal- I've really enjoyed the chapter on sexual selection and sexual dimorphisms.

Anything in there about free range sexuals?
/

173 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:13:54pm

re: #166 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm glad someone ELSE said that to Sharm!

And people say that I am feared here...;~)

/I usually tiptoe gingerly around the Smurfette...

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:13:59pm

re: #45 ArchangelMichael

No California is too busy making sure the terms "marriage", "mother", and "father" don't appear in textbooks. Can't have the homosexual couples and their adopted children or relatives being offended now can we?

Got a link?

175 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:14:23pm

re: #170 OldLineTexan

What are you using for bait?

Was that said with a lear?

176 itellu3times  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:14:33pm
“If you want to tell (students) there are not weaknesses to evolution and it’s as sure as the Earth going around the sun, it’s not,” he said.

It is pretty much the same degree of certainty. I can prove evolution in a lab, which I cannot do with the orbit of the Earth. Any prediction of the orbit of the Earth will be uncertain to a couple of inches ... does that mean it isn't true? Our uncertainties about evolution are on about the same level.

177 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:14:33pm

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, our lack of being on the list proves that we suck, because if we weren't secularist liberals who don't go to church or cling to guns (they never met my relatives in Turlock apparently), then we'd have crazy creationists.

//////////////////////////////

I've met your Senators. Or at least I know their work.

So is DiFi going to replace Ahnuld?

178 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:14:46pm

re: #173 Salamantis

And people say that I am feared here...;~)

/I usually tiptoe gingerly around the Smurfette...

double-heh

179 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:15:05pm

re: #173 Salamantis

Moi? I'm just a snuggable little kitten.... with claws. ;p

180 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:15:21pm

re: #175 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Was that said with a lear?

It Cessna such thing.

181 Cathypop  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:16:17pm

re: #180 OldLineTexan

It Cessna such thing.

Boing! Boing!

182 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:16:37pm

This would be a perfect time to launch an anti-LOLcat.

/ ... uh ... ur ... welll ... *tiptoes away*

183 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:17:14pm

re: #181 Cathypop

Boing! Boing!

Helluva name for an ahr-plane. Boeing. Sounds like a part just fell off!

BOING!

/

184 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:17:21pm

re: #180 OldLineTexan

It Cessna such thing.

Piper down.

185 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:17:29pm

re: #179 Sharmuta

Moi? I'm just a snuggable little kitten.... with claws. ;p

And fangs.

186 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:17:38pm

re: #180 OldLineTexan

It Cessna such thing.

The Bombardier hits the target again!

187 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:18:35pm

re: #181 Cathypop

Boing! Boing!

You pun-meisters will have to pay the Piper one of these days.

188 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:18:58pm

re: #184 debutaunt

Piper down.

I've Douglas of a hole in this pun thread than in others.

189 ArmyWife  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:19:00pm

Good evening everyone. How are things?

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:19:08pm

re: #177 OldLineTexan

I've met your Senators. Or at least I know their work.

So is DiFi going to replace Ahnuld?

That's my gut feeling, but I'm not putting money on anything right now.

191 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:19:40pm

re: #187 Soona'

You pun-meisters will have to pay the Piper one of these days.

Fokker off. I've SPAD enough of you.

/

192 callahan23  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:19:41pm

OT - but so deservedly.
Israel beats Sweden 3-2 in Davis Cup

For the first time since 1987, and for just the second time ever, Israel's national team advanced to the quarterfinals of the Davis Cup on Sunday. ...

Levy suggested the decision to close the match to the public backfired on the Swedes because it deprived them of the raucous backing that home teams normally enjoy. ...

"Maybe they lost this tie from the lack of support from the spectators," he said. "After all, it affected them more than it affected us. Hopefully it won't happen again." ...

Levy was hoisted in the air by the jubilant Israeli team after the emotional win, with Sela in tears, and a few dozen special guests celebrating in the stands.

193 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:19:58pm

re: #188 OldLineTexan

I've Douglas of a hole in this pun thread than in others.

Now I'm all sad and Mooney.

194 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:20:12pm

re: #186 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The Bombardier hits the target again!

Well aren't you just Aero-Spatiale.

195 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:20:22pm

re: #179 Sharmuta

with a full moon?

/no moon jokes please.............

196 callahan23  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:20:37pm

re: #192 callahan23

OT - but so deservedly.
Israel beats Sweden 3-2 in Davis Cup

Sorry forgot to link.
My bad.

197 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:20:55pm

re: #193 debutaunt

Now I'm all sad and Mooney.

Life is a Beechcraft, then you die.

/

198 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:21:00pm

re: #186 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The Bombardier hits the target again!

Let's bend over and give everyone the Mooney.

199 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:21:18pm

re: #195 IslandLibertarian

with a full moon?

/no moon jokes please.............

More moon than Chinese navy ship!

200 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:22:09pm

re: #198 Soona'

Let's bend over and give everyone the Mooney.

Then toss 'em under the Airbus.

201 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:22:31pm

re: #188 OldLineTexan

I've Douglas of a hole in this pun thread than in others.

If you're using that one, Ilyushin something else.

202 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:23:25pm

re: #187 Soona'

You pun-meisters will have to pay the Piper one of these days.

Wright you are!

203 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:23:29pm

re: #198 Soona'

Let's bend over and give everyone the Mooney.

I'm making a Messerschmidt of my puns.

204 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:23:32pm

re: #200 OldLineTexan

Then toss 'em under the Airbus.

Lockheed us well, Grumman.

205 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:23:39pm

The pun lockheed lessly careens downwards.

206 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:24:13pm

re: #203 Soona'

I'm making a Messerschmidt of my puns.

I ryan out - nothing -zero.

207 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:24:20pm

re: #205 Salamantis

The pun lockheed lessly careens downwards.

In that case, turn around and head Northrup.

208 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:25:02pm

re: #201 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If you're using that one, Ilyushin something else.

Antonov'n to me.

209 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:25:09pm

re: #207 CyanSnowHawk

In that case, turn around and head Northrup.

No pimping, please!

210 irongrampa  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:25:15pm

This thread has an errant flight path.

211 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:25:23pm

re: #208 OldLineTexan

Antonov'n to me.

Yak Yak Yak Yak

212 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:25:30pm

re: #207 CyanSnowHawk

In that case, turn around and head Northrup.

And work at it till you grun man!

213 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:26:03pm

re: #209 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No pimping, please!

Ercoup your losses.

214 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:26:24pm

re: #209 pre-Boomer Marine brat

No pimping, please!

No complaining because I De Havilland and you have not.

215 itellu3times  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:26:31pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Gobekli Tepe is one of the most amazing sites ever found, and there will be decades of study ahead, but this story is so typical of "selling" archeology like it was a new episode of Survivor.

And there is very little publish yet on this site, so the press will be full of stories like this, trying to find something to say about the site.

Search Google for Gobekli Tepe and adviod the articles about the Garden of Eden and UFO's.

You will be amazed at the pictures.

I actually have wondered if some aspects of the site itself has been faked. I have a 30 year arm chair degree in archeology of this area, and some of this site doesn't quite make sense, as of yet.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

That does look astounding, that level of construction of any kind, at that age, breaks all the records, does it not? And I don't see any glyphs, so to have that level of construction without writing is further amazing if that is the case, yes?

Even if the age turns out to be bogus and the whole thing is "only" two or three thousand years old, it would be truly interesting.

Um, no illustrations of humans riding dinosaurs, right? And, y'know, no glyphs of R2D2 and C3PO?

216 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:27:18pm

re: #211 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yak Yak Yak Yak

This thread is taking on completely different Hughes.

217 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:27:20pm

re: #214 CyanSnowHawk

No complaining because I De Havilland and you have not.

Punning is supposed to be a Tupolev-ity.

218 nyc redneck  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:27:27pm

re: #196 callahan23

Sorry forgot to link.
My bad.

*hooray*
i was hoping the israelis would win.
that's just so perfect.

(i'm sure the derelicts, seething outside, went into massive conniption fits.)

219 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:27:30pm

re: #213 debutaunt

Ercoup your losses.

E'Nieuport in a storm.

220 Rexatosis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:28:36pm

Just another moment of idiocy from the GOP to be used against every Republican seeking office in the Northeast. Dodd will definitely being dragging the "Creationist/Fundamentalist" card out next year. The economy and national security should be on the forefront of the GOP agenda not bastardizing scientific teaching.

221 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:28:46pm

re: #217 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Punning is supposed to be a Tupolev-ity.

Sopwith the complaining. Be a Hawker, not a Fairey.

222 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:28:50pm

re: #215 itellu3times

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

That does look astounding, that level of construction of any kind, at that age, breaks all the records, does it not? And I don't see any glyphs, so to have that level of construction without writing is further amazing if that is the case, yes?

Even if the age turns out to be bogus and the whole thing is "only" two or three thousand years old, it would be truly interesting.

Um, no illustrations of humans riding dinosaurs, right? And, y'know, no glyphs of R2D2 and C3PO?

Here is an excellent article that the Smithsonian did on the site:

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?
Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization
By Andrew Curry
[Link: www.smithsonianmag.com...]

223 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:29:16pm

re: #217 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Punning is supposed to be a Tupolev-ity.

You rang the Bell with that one. Textron some more.

224 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:29:36pm

re: #219 OldLineTexan

E'Nieuport in a storm.

Whoa - my husband is impressed!

225 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:30:26pm

re: #221 OldLineTexan

Sopwith the complaining. Be a Hawker, not a Fairey.

It would BAEasy thing to do.

226 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:30:36pm

re: #224 debutaunt

Whoa - my husband is impressed!

Why?

227 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:31:21pm

re: #226 OldLineTexan

Why?

heh ... it was damned good!

228 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:31:21pm

re: #226 OldLineTexan

Why?

Sounds like the Fokker is easily impressed.

229 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:32:01pm

re: #226 OldLineTexan

Why?

He's been feeding me the airplane puns and liked yours.

230 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:32:36pm

re: #223 CyanSnowHawk

You rang the Bell with that one. Textron some more.

People just like to messer schmidt the thread.

231 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:32:39pm

re: #228 CyanSnowHawk

Sounds like the Fokker is easily impressed.

hahahaahahahahhahahahahahaa

232 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:32:47pm

re: #229 debutaunt

He's been feeding me the airplane puns and liked yours.

Well, thank him for me. This is good silly fun, yes?

233 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:34:04pm

re: #232 OldLineTexan

Well, thank him for me. This is good silly fun, yes?

It really is fun.

234 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:34:13pm

re: #229 debutaunt

He's been feeding me the airplane puns and liked yours.

So let's just Sopwith the puns.
/I get the feeling that one has been used

235 callahan23  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:34:41pm

re: #218 nyc redneck

*hooray*
i was hoping the israelis would win.
that's just so perfect.

(i'm sure the derelicts, seething outside, went into massive conniption fits.)

*Woot*
It is also what I very much hoped to see as a result.

(But I am sure that the derelicts, that were seething outside weren't interested a bit in the sport.
Their only interest was in their antisemitism.)

236 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:34:44pm

re: #233 debutaunt

It really is fun.

Too bad it's almost Hanover. I am really having to stretch 'em.

237 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:35:27pm

re: #234 Soona'

So let's just Sopwith the puns.
/I get the feeling that one has been used

I hope no one Pfalz for that.

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:35:45pm

re: #229 debutaunt

He's been feeding me the airplane puns and liked yours.

Looks like we Avrolled over into bi-planing.

/pre-WWII reference there

239 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:35:45pm

re: #234 Soona'

So let's just Sopwith the puns.
/I get the feeling that one has been used

That's okay, you just Kamen a little late.

240 Dustyvet  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:36:43pm

re: #238 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Looks like we Avrolled over into bi-planing.

/pre-WWII reference there

now I'm in a stall...

241 Neutral President  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:36:50pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

I was being somewhat over the top on purpose to make a point about California mindset. I'm not going to link to World NUT Daily's asinine hysteria. It is within the realm of possibility due to SB 7777 and in California, we bend over backwards to the point of breaking our backs to make sure no one is offended except for Christians, social conservatives, and taxpayers. There's a snowball's chance in hell of a stealth creationism bill floating in California compared to what I posted about.

242 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:37:29pm

re: #230 Salamantis

People just like to messer schmidt the thread.

You wouldn't be Ryan to me, would you?

243 UberInfidel67  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:38:11pm

re: #222 Salamantis I enjoyed the comments with that article.

244 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:38:32pm

re: #240 Dustyvet

now I'm in a stall...

Makes you want to Spitfire, huh?

245 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:38:38pm

re: #240 Dustyvet

now I'm in a stall...

In that case, I'll grant you some common Curtis-ey

246 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:39:07pm

re: #244 Soona'

Makes you want to Spitfire, huh?

Don't spit into a Hurricane.

247 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:39:37pm

Speaking of the real target of creation-nuts, science itself, you have got to see this astonishing and beautiful picture of Deimos, the smaller of Mars's two moons. This was taken by the HiRise camera on February 21st.

248 debutaunt  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:40:12pm

re: #246 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Don't spit into a Hurricane.

Wouldn't be aerodrynamic.

249 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:40:13pm

re: #237 OldLineTexan

I hope no one Pfalz for that.

Is Dassault there is?

250 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:40:19pm

re: #240 Dustyvet

now I'm in a stall...

Watch out how you place your feet.

251 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:40:45pm

re: #248 debutaunt

Wouldn't be aerodrynamic.

eeeuuwwwwww!
up-ding

252 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:40:47pm

re: #245 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In that case, I'll grant you some common Curtis-ey

That's nice of you, look I'm Saab-ing my eyes out over it.

253 Luigi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:40:53pm

I think the market might be near a bottom. Redstate reports Geithner may be fighting for his job. Dumping him would change the psychology for the better. They might even find someone who has a clue, but not likely. That's not Obama's style.

I think the Dems are starting to come under pressure from their money donors who are now losing a great deal of money. The shorts are stating to tear into Democratic money. Google was down nearly 6 percent today. The Hollywood studios are trading at 52 week lows at least. Harry Reid's Vegas is doing terrible. MGM, having hit $65 a year ago is now trading at $2.33.

When the liberals lose their money socialism has gone far enough.

254 Dustyvet  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:41:17pm

re: #244 Soona'

Makes you want to Spitfire, huh?

Nah I want to run with the Mustangs all 51 of them...:)

255 Dustyvet  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:42:08pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

Watch out how you place your feet.

Maisey hit him...:)

256 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:42:15pm

re: #249 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Is Dassault there is?

Says the offspring of the Supermarine.

257 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:42:50pm

re: #253 Luigi

I think the market might be near a bottom. Redstate reports Geithner may be fighting for his job. Dumping him would change the psychology for the better. They might even find someone who has a clue, but not likely. That's not Obama's style.

I think the Dems are starting to come under pressure from their money donors who are now losing a great deal of money. The shorts are stating to tear into Democratic money. Google was down nearly 6 percent today. The Hollywood studios are trading at 52 week lows at least. Harry Reid's Vegas is doing terrible. MGM, having hit $65 a year ago is now trading at $2.33.

When the liberals lose their money socialism has gone far enough.

I wish that was a sure thing. I don't know anymore.

258 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:42:55pm

Am I Dornier?
/no, I guess not ... don't Focke Wuff me, people!

259 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:42:55pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

Watch out how you place your feet.

Note to self..
Don't place feet in a wide position
Don't wave your hand under the stall
Don't lie to the cops..
/Am I missing anything in the bathroom?

260 lostlakehiker  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:43:19pm
In Texas public school classrooms, McLeroy says, he doesn’t want religion science taught. He just wants to let science be science religion. “If you want to tell (students) there are not weaknesses to evolution and it’s as sure as the Earth sun going around the sun Earth, it’s not,” he said. “You’ve got to be honest. You ask why I’m so passionate about this? I don’t want America to lose its scientific soul. I feel I am the defender of science the faith.”


There. That's what he'd say if we had him under the influence of truth serum.

In reality, the case for evolution is just as strong as the case for the earth going around the sun. You can make arguments against the heliocentric theory, and they'll be just as logical as the arguments against evolution. Both will proceed out of (eccentric and ill reasoned) exegesis of scripture, then fit facts and fantasy drawn from the natural world and the imagination of the author to that skeleton, until, like a train pulling into the station, the argument reaches the conclusion it had been destined from the start to reach.

Once you grant that the earth goes around the sun, you've granted also that the sun is bigger than the earth. This puts a scale to the solar system, and then, using the same scale to comprehend interstellar distances, it puts a scale to the night sky. The universe is billions of years old. So is the earth, though not as many billions. And in that length of time, much can happen. Much has happened. Chimpanzees, gibbons, humans, and our other great-ape relatives, we're all extremely recent. For now, we are the crown of creation, at any rate in our neighborhood we are...by our own lights.

The whales are fairly recent too. The blue whale is the largest animal ever to live. Insects have evolved some new tricks too. more than you ever wanted to know about ants. Ants are another relatively recent arrival on the earth-life scene, going back a mere 120-some million years. For comparison, that's about the same time as the advent of flowering plants and halfway through the age of dinosaurs.

Dentists should stick to drilling cavities. They're not trained or qualified for drilling down to the truth of scientific questions.

261 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:43:39pm

re: #253 Luigi

I think the market might be near a bottom. Redstate reports Geithner may be fighting for his job. Dumping him would change the psychology for the better. They might even find someone who has a clue, but not likely. That's not Obama's style.

I think the Dems are starting to come under pressure from their money donors who are now losing a great deal of money. The shorts are stating to tear into Democratic money. Google was down nearly 6 percent today. The Hollywood studios are trading at 52 week lows at least. Harry Reid's Vegas is doing terrible. MGM, having hit $65 a year ago is now trading at $2.33.

When the liberals lose their money socialism has gone far enough.

And they are busy looking for the quick-fix yet again. Firing one man is not going to be the panacea they so desperately seek.

262 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:44:47pm

From the UK:

Creationism 'should be taught in science lessons'

Guidance is being sent to dozens of secondary schools highlighting how the Biblical story of creation can be used in classes for 11 to 14-year-olds.
It is being employed as part of a joint syllabus for science and religious education.

The module - for schools in Hampshire - is designed to contrast Charles Darwin's theory of evolution with creationism and its more recent off-shoot intelligent design.

Last night, critics branded it "an extremely retrograde step".
But supporters insisted pupils should be encouraged to analyse different views in a balanced way.

263 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:45:11pm

re: #259 HoosierHoops

Note to self..
Don't place feet in a wide position
Don't wave your hand under the stall
Don't lie to the cops..
/Am I missing anything in the bathroom?

Don't say anything like "Hi, big guy".

264 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:46:23pm

re: #263 Soona'

Don't say anything like "Hi, big guy".

DO stand on the bowl, grunt loudly, and toss your boot in.

265 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:46:27pm

re: #263 Soona'

Don't say anything like "Hi, big guy".

Or say "Bend over Brucie."

266 callahan23  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:46:31pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

From the UK:

Creationism 'should be taught in science lessons'

There goes a great nation of science. Snif

267 Dustyvet  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:46:33pm

re: #258 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Am I Dornier?
/no, I guess not ... don't Focke Wuff me, people!

Oh look, it's a Folker...

268 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:47:07pm

re: #258 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Am I Dornier?
/no, I guess not ... don't Focke Wuff me, people!

You really Vought not to.

269 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:47:23pm

re: #256 CyanSnowHawk

Says the offspring of the Supermarine.

Gah! My brain just died trying to come up with a "see plane" pun.

BTW, I've got a copy of "Spitfire" (David Niven & Lesie Howard) which made a crappy transfer to video tape. I wish I could find a DVD of it.

/not likely it'll ever come out on DVD

270 Dustyvet  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:48:29pm

re: #269 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Gah! My brain just died trying to come up with a "see plane" pun.

BTW, I've got a copy of "Spitfire" (David Niven & Lesie Howard) which made a crappy transfer to video tape. I wish I could find a DVD of it.

/not likely it'll ever come out on DVD

A World War II pilot is reminiscing before school children about his days in the air force. (Joke best delivered with a good thick accent)

"In 1942," he says, "the situation was really tough. The Germans had a very strong air force. I remember, " he continues, "one day I was protecting the bombers and suddenly, out of the clouds, these fokkers appeared.

(At this point, several of the children giggle.)

I looked up, and right above me was one of them. I aimed at him and shot him down. They were swarming. I immediately realized that there was another fokker behind me."

At this instant the girls in the auditorium start to giggle and boys start to laugh. The teacher stands up and says, "I think I should point out that 'Fokker' was the name of the German-Dutch aircraft company"

"That's true," says the pilot, "but these fokkers were flying Messerschmidts."

271 FrogMarch  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:48:50pm

re: #253 Luigi

Obama is also sending out the rallying cry to his blind-faith community organizer followers.

Apparently, Obama feels he can campaign and community organize our way out of this mess.

272 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:49:19pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

From the UK:

Creationism 'should be taught in science lessons'

Andy McIntosh, co-director of Truth in Science, a group of academics and clergymen campaigning for intelligent design to be included in syllabuses, said: "There should be an open and fair discussion about the issues and we should not be presenting pupils with only one view in a closed manner. It is certainly possible to look at the evidence and come up with a different conclusion to the evolutionary position. Indeed, many would see that the evidence fits perfectly well with a design position."

What evidence for design? There is none.

273 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:49:21pm

re: #270 Dustyvet

Ah, a classic.

274 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:49:42pm

re: #265 Walter L. Newton

Or say "Bend over Brucie."

What are the two words you never want to here in a men's locker room?

275 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:50:25pm

re: #274 Soona'

What are the two words you never want to here in a men's locker room?

"Nice ass"

/unless it's bring yer donkey day

276 jaunte  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:51:02pm

re: #271 FrogMarch

Obama is also sending out the rallying cry to his blind-faith community organizer followers.

From your link:

"We will show in every state, in every congressional district the hunger, for leadership and long range thinking that's in too short supply here in Washington."


Maybe hiring the rest of your policy staff would be a good start, Oblamer.

277 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:51:11pm

re: #274 Soona'

What are the two words you never want to here in a men's locker room?

Start+Flug?

278 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:51:36pm

Except for the agnostics everyone believes in something or nothing.
A belief based upon evidence for some and no evidence for others.

So the earth is about 4.5 billion years old (probably a very good scientific estimation) and lets suppose "real" science started about the time of Plato.
From the time of Plato to present day is about 2,360 years which is roughly .00005% of Earth's life.

To put it on another scale.
4.5 billion seconds = 600 years
2360 seconds = 39.33 minutes

The earth being 600 years old, man in 39.33 minutes has the answer to life the universe and everything.

Deep Thought

279 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:51:43pm

re: #266 callahan23

There goes a great nation of science. Snif

It's becoming clear to me that the war against science and the Enlightenment is going global. Regression is on the march.

280 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:52:06pm

re: #270 Dustyvet

LOL, haven't heard that in years!
Thanks!

281 Dustyvet  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:53:31pm

CEO --Chief Embezzlement Officer

CFO-- Corporate Fraud Officer.

BULL MARKET--A random market movement causing an investor to mistake himself for a financial genius.

BEAR MARKET--A 6 to 18 month period when the kids get no allowance, the wife gets no jewelry, and the husband gets no sex.

VALUE INVESTING--The art of buying low and selling lower.

P/E RATIO--The percentage of investors wetting their pants as the market keeps crashing.

BROKER--What my broker has made me.

STANDARD & POOR--Your life in a nutshell.

STOCK ANALYST--Idiot who just downgraded your stock.

STOCK SPLIT--When your ex-wife and her lawyer split your assets equally between themselves.

FINANCIAL PLANNER--A guy whose phone has been disconnected.

MARKET CORRECTION--The day after you buy stocks.

CASH FLOW-- The movement your money makes as it disappears down the toilet.

YAHOO--What you yell after selling it to some poor sucker for $240 per share.

WINDOWS--What you jump out of when you're the sucker who bought Yahoo @ $240 per share.

INSTITUTIONAL INVESTOR--Past year investor who's now locked up in a nuthouse.

PROFIT--An archaic word, no longer used.

282 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:53:49pm

Good evening.

We have now seen more value lost more value off the stock markt faster than any other time in the modern era except 1929 to 1932.

But the Messiah says you should not pay attention to the ups and downs of the market.

Hey doofus, the problem is there are only downs now that you are in office.


Obama promised change and that is what we got.

283 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:53:53pm

re: #278 Piglet-U93

Except we don't have the answers to "life the universe and everything" and no scientist or any human would state otherwise.

284 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:54:26pm

re: #277 CyanSnowHawk

Start+Flug?

Beautiful.
//not that I'd say that in a locker room.

285 chicagodudewhotrades  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:55:30pm

re: #277 CyanSnowHawk


What is the 1 thing you never want to see in a Men's locker room?.........

the overweight very hairy guy who never has the decency to wrap a towel around himself. Unfortunately, this guy ALWAYS gets the locker next to mine.....lovely

286 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:55:41pm

re: #282 3 wood

Do you still think 6000 is the bottom or is the DOW headed lower? I only ask this because the DOW is getting close to 6000 and I don't see any positive news on the horizon. I was hoping 5000 would be the floor but I don't know anymore.

287 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:55:59pm

re: #282 3 wood

Good evening.

We have now seen more value lost more value off the stock markt faster than any other time in the modern era except 1929 to 1932.

But the Messiah says you should not pay attention to the ups and downs of the market.

Hey doofus, the problem is there are only downs now that you are in office.

Obama promised change and that is what we got.

I AM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OB!
PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

288 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:05pm

re: #278 Piglet-U93

Except for the agnostics everyone believes in something or nothing.

Dumbest quote of the day, for me.

289 Earick  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:19pm

“And now science definitely says that the universe had a beginning. Therefore, the universe had to have a cause. And that cause is God.” ...

So God is a colliding membrane then!?!

Makes the strings of my reality vibrate!

290 callahan23  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:22pm

re: #279 Sharmuta

It's becoming clear to me that the war against science and the Enlightenment is going global. Regression is on the march.

You nailed it!

291 KronoGhazi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:35pm

What exactly were these weaknesses in evolution he spoketh of?

292 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:47pm

re: #253 Luigi

Evenhe most wacked out lefty in Congress is staring to realize that Geithner has been absent from his post. They want to know what his "plan" is, and he better have oen, or a group are going to visit the Messiah and inform him the Geithner just had himself a health problem come up and needs to be replaced.

Guy I'm hearing be suggested a lot is Volcker.

293 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:50pm

re: #283 Sharmuta

Does that mean Mo was not human?

294 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:52pm

re: #283 Sharmuta

Except we don't have the answers to "life the universe and everything" and no scientist or any human would state otherwise.

We have the answer. It is 42.
We just don't have the question.
Now, where's my towel?

295 cronus  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:56:59pm

re: #271 FrogMarch

"We're doing that by asking people to pledge your support for the broad initiatives outlined in President Obama's economic plan.

"Once you do, we will ask you to build support in your own communities by forwarding this pledge by email, by knocking on doors and by making phone call," he said.

I desperately hope one of these people comes to my door to advocate for Obama's economic plan. I'd simply profess solidarity and then hand them my bills.

296 tjexcite  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:57:11pm

Which is worse a creationist or a global warming alarmist in charge of education.

The AGW alarmist stops all paper use at the school and only one square in the bathroom. They use electronic or white boards on the desks. It has solar cells on the roofs. No plastic bottles at all (sugary, water etc). Bio fuel in all the buses that turns to wax in the cold if they even have buses not making everyone walk even teachers. And compost in every class room even a septic system to save water which is then use for watering the grounds. One must even have a wind power generation on school land some where. I am sure I am missing things that they could do to harm.

Just wait until someone who graduates from a school system with a creationist in charge tries to get into a university for a real science degree they would laugh at them.

297 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:58:30pm

re: #293 Piglet-U93

Does that mean Mo was not human?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but the islamic creationists are just as worrisome as the Christian variety- and both are working with each other.

298 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:58:33pm

re: #286 Jetpilot1101

Do you still think 6000 is the bottom or is the DOW headed lower? I only ask this because the DOW is getting close to 6000 and I don't see any positive news on the horizon. I was hoping 5000 would be the floor but I don't know anymore.

If Geithner finds a clue and comes out with a workable plan in the next week or so to move the banks forward, 6,000 could be the bottom. If not, it's anybody's guess.

The market is about to throw in the towel on the Obama Administration.

299 Luigi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:58:38pm

I'm trying to convince myself the hemorrhaging will stop in the market, but I barely believe it myself. The people who are ruined are the ones who invested judiciously, prudently and conservatively. If you look down the list of the Dow 30 you see just a ghost town where America's shining city stood so recently. Citi, GM, International Paper, Eastman Kodak, General Electric, Alcoa. All murdered by Obama. Yes, by Obama. If you're well meaning you might call it incompetence. If you're cynical you might call it a malevolent.

I think of him as a sociopath. Someone who lives without a sense of responsibility. An enfant terrible. A malevolent narcissist. The only hope really is that his character will trip him up. Some skeleton, real or metaphorical, will fall out of some closet. It better happen soon.

300 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:58:51pm

re: #293 Piglet-U93

Does that mean Mo was not human?

I believe the common term for what he was is 'inhuman'.

301 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 4:59:07pm

re: #288 Naso Tang

Dumbest quote of the day, for me.

I dinged you up on that one :)

302 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:00:05pm

By the way, the money supply has increased approximately 270% in the last 6 weeks.

For comparison purposes, we target a 5% grwoth in normal circumstances.

303 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:00:37pm

re: #286 Jetpilot1101

I was hoping 5000 would be the floor but I don't know anymore.

/5320

304 FrogMarch  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:00:40pm

re: #295 cronus

I desperately hope one of these people comes to my door to advocate for Obama's economic plan. I'd simply profess solidarity and then hand them my bills.

Obama-bots are like some religious fanatics. They think that if they join together and squeeze hands and HOPE for unicorns - unicorns will appear.

305 FrogMarch  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:01:05pm

Obama - the Manchurian candidate?

306 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:01:28pm

re: #278 Piglet-U93

Except for the agnostics everyone believes in something or nothing.
A belief based upon evidence for some and no evidence for others.

So the earth is about 4.5 billion years old (probably a very good scientific estimation) and lets suppose "real" science started about the time of Plato.
From the time of Plato to present day is about 2,360 years which is roughly .00005% of Earth's life.

To put it on another scale.
4.5 billion seconds = 600 years
2360 seconds = 39.33 minutes

The earth being 600 years old, man in 39.33 minutes has the answer to life the universe and everything.

Deep Thought

The ancient Greek argument from ignorance, in all its fallcious gory, once again rears its hoary head.

Just because there are (and will ever be) things that we don't know, doesn't mean that there aren't things that we do know. And we know for certain, based upon the fossil records, that evolution, defined as changes in species populations over time, happens, just as we know beyond rational statistical doubt, based upon an avalanche of empirical evidence, that the core mechanisms by means of which this process proceeds are random genetic evolution and nonrandom environmental selection, and just as we know that the material substrate that contains the coding that mutates is the DNA discovered by Watson & Crick, who searched for it due to the inspirational impetus provided by Charles Darwin's and Gregor Mendel's scientific insights.

307 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:01:38pm

Hi

First, to all fundie fools...grow up please.

Next, an old, old joke, anyone remember Oly Olsen?

"Oly, you seem mighty proud of that big medal you're wearin'"

Oly: Ya, I got this for shootin' down 10 fokkers!

"but Oly, aren't fokkers those old fashioned planes with two wings?"

Oly: Ya, ya...but them dirty fokkers was flyin' messerschmidts!

(ok, seemed funny when I was a little kid)

308 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:02:28pm

More Americans say they have no religion

A wide-ranging study on American religious life found that the Roman Catholic population has been shifting out o of the Northeast to the Southwest, the percentage of Christians in the nation has declined and more people say they have no religion at all.

Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey.

When reached for comment, The Discovery Institute blamed Charles Darwin.

309 realwest  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:03:02pm

Hey y'all - just thought that the Supreme Courts holding and language might be of some benefit to these discusions of Creationism/Intelligent design:

In 1967, the Tennessee public schools were threatened with another lawsuit over the Butler Act's constitutionality, and, fearing public reprisal, Tennessee's legislature repealed the Butler Act. In the following year, 1968, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in Epperson v. Arkansas that Arkansas's law prohibiting the teaching of evolution was in violation of the First Amendment. The Supreme Court held that the Establishment Clause prohibits the state from advancing any religion, and determined that the Arkansas law which allowed the teaching of creation while disallowing the teaching of evolution advanced a religion, and was therefore in violation of the 1st amendment Establishment clause. This holding reflected a broader understanding of the Establishment Clause: instead of just prohibiting laws that established a state religion, the Clause was interpreted to prohibit laws that furthered religion. Opponents, pointing to the previous decision, argued that this amounted to judicial activism.

In reaction to the Epperson case, creationists in Louisiana passed a law requiring that public schools should give "equal time" to "alternative theories" of origin. The Supreme Court ruled in Edwards v. Aguillard that the Louisiana statute, which required creation to be taught alongside evolution every time evolution was taught, was unconstitutional.

The Court laid out its rule as follows:

"The Establishment Clause forbids the enactment of any law 'respecting an establishment of religion.' The Court has applied a three-pronged test to determine whether legislation comports with the Establishment Clause. First, the legislature must have adopted the law with a secular purpose. Second, the statute's principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. Third, the statute must not result in an excessive entanglement of government with religion. Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 612-613, 91 S.Ct. 2105, 2111, 29 L.Ed.2d 745 (1971). State action violates the Establishment Clause if it fails to satisfy any of these prongs." Edwards v. Aguillard 482 U.S. 578, *582-583, 107 S.Ct. 2573, 2577 (U.S.La.,1987).

The Court held that the law was not adopted with a secular purpose, because its purported purpose of "protecting academic freedom" was not furthered by limiting the freedom of teachers to teach what they thought appropriate; ruled that the act was discriminatory because it provided certain resources and guarantees to "creation scientists" which were not provided to those who taught evolution; and ruled that the law was intended to advance a particular religion because several state senators that had supported the bill stated that their support for the bill stemmed from their religious beliefs.

While the Court held that creationism is an inherently religious belief, it did not hold that every mention of creationism in a public school is unconstitutional:

"We do not imply that a legislature could never require that scientific critiques of prevailing scientific theories be taught. Indeed, the Court acknowledged in Stone that its decision forbidding the posting of the Ten Commandments did not mean that no use could ever be made of the Ten Commandments, or that the Ten Commandments played an exclusively religious role in the history of Western Civilization. 449 U.S., at 42, 101 S.Ct., at 194. In a similar way, teaching a variety of scientific theories about the origins of humankind to schoolchildren might be validly done with the clear secular intent of enhancing the effectiveness of science instruction. But because the primary purpose of the Creationism Act is to endorse a particular religious doctrine, the Act furthers religion in violation of the Establishment Clause." Edwards v. Aguillard 482 U.S. 578, 593-594, 107 S.Ct. 2573, 2583 (U.S.La.,1987)
[snip]

310 Luigi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:03:16pm

re: #292 3 wood

Personally, I don't even want to hear Geithner's plan. It would be a waste of time even thinking about it. He should just disappear.

311 rightymouse  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:03:29pm

re: #295 cronus

I desperately hope one of these people comes to my door to advocate for Obama's economic plan. I'd simply profess solidarity and then hand them my bills.


Ooh..good idea!
One of my liberal friends sent me that Obama community email thingy and I laughed at him. He was rather sheepish.

312 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:03:50pm

re: #303 Killian Bundy

/5320

It would be nice if that was the bottom but I am leary of anything Jim Cramer says. I'm hoping 3 Wood is correct and Turbo Tax Cheat Timmy Geithner gets a clue in the next week. I'm guessing if he doesn't, the DOW is going to accelerate over a cliff and head for the 7th circle of hell.

313 realwest  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:03:54pm

re: #309 realwest
(continued)
"Just as it is permissible to discuss the crucial role of religion in medieval European history, creationism may be discussed in a civics, current affairs, philosophy, or comparative religions class where the intent is to factually educate students about the diverse range of human political and religious beliefs. The line is crossed only when creationism is taught as science, just as it would be if a teacher were to proselytize a particular religious belief.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

314 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:03:55pm

re: #282 3 wood

Good evening.

We have now seen more value lost more value off the stock markt faster than any other time in the modern era except 1929 to 1932.

But the Messiah says you should not pay attention to the ups and downs of the market.

Hey doofus, the problem is there are only downs now that you are in office.

Obama promised change and that is what we got.

Sick, just fuckin sick. excuse my French please.

315 Racer X  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:04:12pm

re: #253 Luigi

When the liberals lose their money socialism has gone far enough.

Man, we can only hope it has gone far enough.

316 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:04:38pm

re: #303 Killian Bundy

The problem is, with no uptick rule on short selling, you can short a stock into the ground now. I don't think that the old rules apply anymore with no uptick rule in place.

317 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:04:54pm

re: #296 tjexcite

Which is worse a creationist or a global warming alarmist in charge of education.

The AGW alarmist stops all paper use at the school and only one square in the bathroom. They use electronic or white boards on the desks. It has solar cells on the roofs. No plastic bottles at all (sugary, water etc). Bio fuel in all the buses that turns to wax in the cold if they even have buses not making everyone walk even teachers. And compost in every class room even a septic system to save water which is then use for watering the grounds. One must even have a wind power generation on school land some where. I am sure I am missing things that they could do to harm.

Just wait until someone who graduates from a school system with a creationist in charge tries to get into a university for a real science degree they would laugh at them.

Just because one is bad doesn't mean that the other one isn't. The solution to AGW arsenic poisoning isn't to dose the academic patient with creationist strychnine.

318 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:05:34pm

re: #306 Salamantis

I just picked Plato as an abritrary starting point, pardon me, but who or when do you have in mind?

319 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:05:35pm

re: #312 Jetpilot1101

It would be nice if that was the bottom but I am leary of anything Jim Cramer says.

/he spent some time and put some thought into it

320 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:05:53pm

re: #293 Piglet-U93

Does that mean Mo was not human?

Mo was an alien sent to destroy the Earth with the Koran.
/science fiction mode off

321 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:07:03pm

re: #301 Piglet-U93

I dinged you up on that one :)

We all have our moments, some better than others. You will note I didn't down ding you, since I try not to do that if I comment. I will however accept your ding, since it was a genuinely dumb statement.

:=)

322 realwest  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:07:25pm

I just posted #'s 309 and 313 to indicate that the SCOTUS has held and indicated in it's holding that the teaching of creationism in Science classes is unconsititutional.
Thus it would seem to me that state legislatures in passing these patently unconsitutional laws are simply pandering to what they perceive as their voter base (y'all listening Bobby Jindal? Rick Perry?) and have no real basis or hope of becoming enforceable law in any of the states of the United States.

323 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:07:30pm

re: #316 3 wood

The problem is, with no uptick rule on short selling, you can short a stock into the ground now. I don't think that the old rules apply anymore with no uptick rule in place.

/the uptick rule would be good, but it's not as effective a deterrent anymore with decimal trading

324 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:07:46pm

re: #319 Killian Bundy

/he spent some time and put some thought into it

I'm sure he did but this is one of the reasons I am a bit skeptical of what Jim Cramer says.

325 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:07:59pm

re: #312 Jetpilot1101

It would be nice if that was the bottom but I am leary of anything Jim Cramer says. I'm hoping 3 Wood is correct and Turbo Tax Cheat Timmy Geithner gets a clue in the next week. I'm guessing if he doesn't, the DOW is going to accelerate over a cliff and head for the 7th circle of hell.

The story I'm hearing is that Geithner is being told straight up that he has screwed around for long enough and it's time he came out with his plan. He's been put on a clock and I'm hearing he has about 1 week to come up with a plan that sounds like he knows what he's doing or else he's toast.

326 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:08:25pm

re: #296 tjexcite

Just wait until someone who graduates from a school system with a creationist in charge tries to get into a university for a real science degree they would laugh at them.

The University of California is already rejecting high school graduates because they lack the necessary science education needed for university. Of course- the U of Ca system is being sued for this.

327 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:08:37pm

re: #325 3 wood

The story I'm hearing is that Geithner is being told straight up that he has screwed around for long enough and it's time he came out with his plan. He's been put on a clock and I'm hearing he has about 1 week to come up with a plan that sounds like he knows what he's doing or else he's toast.

Damn, 6 weeks into the job and fired; that might be some kind of record.

328 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:08:38pm

re: #318 Piglet-U93

I just picked Plato as an abritrary starting point, pardon me, but who or when do you have in mind?

Aristotelian logic. Aristotle was Plato's pupil, the first major systematic logician, and the first big-time empiricist.

329 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:08:48pm

re: #313 realwest

(continued)
"Just as it is permissible to discuss the crucial role of religion in medieval European history, creationism may be discussed in a civics, current affairs, philosophy, or comparative religions class where the intent is to factually educate students about the diverse range of human political and religious beliefs. The line is crossed only when creationism is taught as science, just as it would be if a teacher were to proselytize a particular religious belief.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I can agreee with that position. I am not as fundamental as some tend to believe.

330 zimriel  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:08:50pm

re: #15 Jetpilot1101

No sir, you are passionate because it puts you on the front page of newspapers. In your quest for 5 minutes of fame you not only damage the witness of Jesus whom you claim to serve, ...

In other news today, more Americans are claiming no religion. Catholics are doing okay (there are more of us, but about the same percentage); but "over the last seven years, mainline Protestants dropped from just over 17 percent to 12.9 percent of the population."

Creationism is to Protestantism what child abuse was to the Church: a big, ugly, divisive distraction.

331 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:09:16pm

re: #323 Killian Bundy

/the uptick rule would be good, but it's not as effective a deterrent anymore with decimal trading

Raise the "uptick" amount to 4 tenths. That wil stop the game playing but quick.

332 realwest  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:09:23pm

Whoops, mom just called out "dinner" so I'm outta here for now; hope you all have a great night and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

333 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:09:59pm

re: #327 Jetpilot1101

Damn, 6 weeks into the job and fired; that might be some kind of record.

The banks are bleeding to death again cause of his inept handling of the situation so far.

334 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:10:15pm

re: #325 3 wood

The story I'm hearing is that Geithner is being told straight up that he has screwed around for long enough and it's time he came out with his plan. He's been put on a clock and I'm hearing he has about 1 week to come up with a plan that sounds like he knows what he's doing or else he's toast.

Is this good? God knows what this cat will birth.

335 itellu3times  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:10:37pm

re: #292 3 wood

Even the most wacked out lefty in Congress is staring to realize that Geithner has been absent from his post. They want to know what his "plan" is, and he better have oen, or a group are going to visit the Messiah and inform him the Geithner just had himself a health problem come up and needs to be replaced.

Guy I'm hearing be suggested a lot is Volcker.

Volcker is too old, and I think he knows it.

Y'know, Paulson didn't have a plan, either. Or he had a different plan every day. We were lucky to have him, but it's a rough kind of luck. Something about no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, I guess.

Job is likely to destroy anyone who steps into the barrel, next few years.

336 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:10:57pm

re: #304 FrogMarch

Obama-bots are like some religious fanatics. They think that if they join together and squeeze hands and HOPE for unicorns - unicorns will appear.

Wha....what do you mean? I was promised a unicorn.

337 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:11:14pm

re: #324 Jetpilot1101

I'm sure he did but this is one of the reasons I am a bit skeptical of what Jim Cramer says.

/sure, he makes mistakes, like everyone else trying to trade the markets

338 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #321 Naso Tang

We all have our moments, some better than others. You will note I didn't down ding you, since I try not to do that if I comment. I will however accept your ding, since it was a genuinely dumb statement.

:=)

RE: Except for the agnostics everyone believes in something or nothing.

Please enlighten me. What is so dumb about it?

339 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #337 Killian Bundy

/sure, he makes mistakes, like everyone else trying to trade the markets

Well in this case, I do hope he is correct and 5320 is the floor.

340 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:12:25pm

re: #331 3 wood

Raise the "uptick" amount to 4 tenths. That wil stop the game playing but quick.

/that'd work

341 cronus  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:12:50pm

re: #322 realwest

I just posted #'s 309 and 313 to indicate that the SCOTUS has held and indicated in it's holding that the teaching of creationism in Science classes is unconstitutional.
Thus it would seem to me that state legislatures in passing these patently unconstitutional laws are simply pandering to what they perceive as their voter base (y'all listening Bobby Jindal? Rick Perry?) and have no real basis or hope of becoming enforceable law in any of the states of the United States.

Jindal and Perry know this. They believe they gain political points with theocrats by attacking the Establishment Cause. In fact, they'd probably like nothing better than to provide a test case only to have their ass handed to them in federal court. So it goes with martyrs.

342 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:13:29pm

re: #339 Jetpilot1101

Well in this case, I do hope he is correct and 5320 is the floor.

/that's his worst case, even he doesn't think it's going that low

343 Truck Monkey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:14:17pm

re: #302 3 wood

By the way, the money supply has increased approximately 270% in the last 6 weeks.

For comparison purposes, we target a 5% grwoth in normal circumstances.

If the market throws in the towel on The Obamessiah does that mean it will flounder and stay between 3000 and 5000 for the next 4 years? Also, with the rapid growth of the money supply, when do you see the a deflationary period turn into a Hyper inflation?

Oh, and lastly, what color wheel barrel do you recommend I get for carrying cash to the grocery store for bread and milk purchases?

344 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:14:41pm

Here is the damage Geithner has done tot he banking system by his screwing around.

Treasuries Little Changed as Government Debt Auctions Loom


Central banks are still trying to thaw credit markets and narrow the difference between what banks and the government pay to borrow for three months. That gap, known as the TED spread, widened to 1.11 percentage points from 91 basis points on Feb. 10. The spread averaged 0.27 percentage point from 2002 through 2006.

The TED spread has widened by 20% and the credit markets are locking back up. They have no faith that Geithner can get himself dressed, let alone move things forward.

345 Luigi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:15:30pm

The thing about the stock market that people don't recognize is that this crash is only 'real' to older people. Older people have investments. Obama's most faithful core constituency has very little invested in the market. Young people don't have any substantial money invested, or they have plenty of time for their investments to come back so they don't worry about it. The really dumb ones are probably glad that someone is finally sticking it to the 'rich'. Obama of course encourages that kind of thinking.

346 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:15:42pm

re: #343 Truck Monkey

If the market throws in the towel on The Obamessiah does that mean it will flounder and stay between 3000 and 5000 for the next 4 years? Also, with the rapid growth of the money supply, when do you see the a deflationary period turn into a Hyper inflation?

Oh, and lastly, what color wheel barrel do you recommend I get for carrying cash to the grocery store for bread and milk purchases?

Red is nice for all occasions.

347 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:16:07pm

re: #334 The Shadow Do

Is this good? God knows what this cat will birth.

Geithner has pproven to be a clown. I can find lots of people better than him.

348 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:16:54pm

re: #297 Sharmuta

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but the islamic creationists are just as worrisome as the Christian variety- and both are working with each other.

You said no human has all the answers, Islamists say all answers are in the Q'uran*, therefore the question. I believe was joke. Actually not bad one.

* assuming Mo wrote Q'uran, which is my position

349 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:17:41pm

re: #347 3 wood

Geithner has pproven to be a clown. I can find lots of people better than him.

At least find someone who knows what it's like to pay taxes on time.

350 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:17:42pm

re: #338 Piglet-U93

RE: Except for the agnostics everyone believes in something or nothing.

Please enlighten me. What is so dumb about it?

Because even the agnostics believe in something OR nothing; together, something and nothing exhaust all the options.

A plus (not A) equal all possibilities with regards to A. There are no alternatives other than those two with regrd to A.

Here are the Greek Laws of Thought, governing Identity (and they are convertible to one another):

A or not-A
Not both A and not-A
If A, then A
If not-A, then not-A

351 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:20:00pm

re: #343 Truck Monkey

If the market throws in the towel on The Obamessiah does that mean it will flounder and stay between 3000 and 5000 for the next 4 years? Also, with the rapid growth of the money supply, when do you see the a deflationary period turn into a Hyper inflation?

Oh, and lastly, what color wheel barrel do you recommend I get for carrying cash to the grocery store for bread and milk purchases?

I put it at better than 50% at this point that the market will get another major sell off and the Dow will drop clsoe to 5,000 and stay there for a long time due to the capital gains taxes that are going to go up. No reason to take the risk.

The inflation is already starting to show up a bit here and there. I think you will see double digit inflation, between 15% and 20%, within 24 months. Maybe 12 months.

352 zimriel  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:20:42pm

re: #328 Salamantis

Aristotelian logic. Aristotle was Plato's pupil, the first major systematic logician, and the first big-time empiricist.

Oh, I dunno; Anaxagoras has a claim to that title before both of 'em.

Mind you, all three were creationists. To them, the universe was a Rube Goldberg setup. Imagine if we'd grown up on the inner shell of the Dyson sphere in TNG episode "Relics" (the good one, with Scotty in it). On that assumption a creator really is the best possible solution.

Nowadays I suppose they'd be positing a creator outside the bounds of spacetime, like the Pope does...

353 3 wood  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:21:05pm

Got to run, later.

354 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:21:13pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

The University of California is already rejecting high school graduates because they lack the necessary science education needed for university. Of course- the U of Ca system is being sued for this.

But applicants are always being rejected for one reason or another. Who is suing on what basis?

355 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:21:43pm

re: #296 tjexcite

Just wait until someone who graduates from a school system with a creationist in charge tries to get into a university for a real science degree they would laugh at them.

It's happened already. A few years ago, the University System of California refused to accept as valid diplomas from certain Christian schools that teach creationism. I'm sure that ruling has been challenged and I don't know how it has turned out. Anyone familiar with the issue, please enlighten me.

356 ArmyWife  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:22:09pm

re: #347 3 wood

Probably right on this board, right now! I want to know - Barry O said he loved Warren Buffet - then Mr. Buffet said the markets were not so hot, and oh by the way, neither are Barry's economic "plans". Barry isn't listening because?

357 Killian Bundy  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:22:34pm

The media is starting to turn on Obama in the last week (I'd post the article hyperlinks but it'd screw up the LGF Show Links screen):

The Obama Economy, Cont.
Obama Policies Feed Market Panic
The Great Non Sequitur
The Obama Economy
Obama’s Radicalism Is Killing the Dow
Analysis: Obama’s ambitious plans raise questions
Obama taking big political risk with budget
Stocks Should Matter to Obama
Obama faulted as indifferent on stocks
‘Obama Bear Market’ Punishes Investors as Dow Slumps
Bear market in full growl, and the end isn’t in sight
It’s Obama’s bear market now
Moderates Uneasy With Obama Budget Plan
Obama budget plan forecasts soaring deficits
Obama budget sinks stocks as health sector slumps
The audacity of borrowing (Obama budget edition)
Obama Is Taking an Economic Flu Patient and Giving It Pneumonia
US stocks drop 20% after Obama takes office
Obama’s budget: Wanton recklessness
Recession, tax plans worry donors and nonprofits
Some Fear Obama Tax Hikes Will Hurt Charities
Obama’s budget proposal threatens charitable giving
After Bailouts, Stimulus Packages, Is It Time for a Federal Budget Diet?
Obama’s Political Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome
‘Manchurian Candidate’ Starts War on Business
Obama Fiddles While Wall Street Burns
Obama is a Great Pretender

Etc., etc.

The natives are getting restless.

/as Rick Santelli so famously said on February 19, 2009, “President Obama, are you listening?”

358 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:22:42pm

re: #356 ArmyWife

Probably right on this board, right now! I want to know - Barry O said he loved Warren Buffet - then Mr. Buffet said the markets were not so hot, and oh by the way, neither are Barry's economic "plans". Barry isn't listening because?

Barry has a plan.

359 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:23:01pm

re: #350 Salamantis

Because even the agnostics believe in something OR nothing; together, something and nothing exhaust all the options.

A plus (not A) equal all possibilities with regards to A. There are no alternatives other than those two with regrd to A.

Here are the Greek Laws of Thought, governing Identity (and they are convertible to one another):

A or not-A
Not both A and not-A
If A, then A
If not-A, then not-A

If, then or not of classical programming..
I have really enjoyed your science links tonight..Thank you
Have you ever read anything by Dr. Pamela Gay?
[Link: www.starstryder.com...]

360 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:23:25pm

re: #347 3 wood

Geithner has pproven to be a clown. I can find lots of people better than him.

Have you thought about sending your resume? Maybe send a nice box set of DVD's along with it? Tell Michelle she has never looked more beautiful? You know, that sort of thing?

361 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:23:35pm

re: #356 ArmyWife

Probably right on this board, right now! I want to know - Barry O said he loved Warren Buffet - then Mr. Buffet said the markets were not so hot, and oh by the way, neither are Barry's economic "plans". Barry isn't listening because?

"I won"

362 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:24:18pm

Agnostics believe in nothing, in the sense that they do not believe in either the presence or the absence of deity - so they have an absence of belief in the presence of a deity (just as they have an abence of belief in the presence of deity). This is different from the atheist belief in nothing, which is the presence of a belief in the absence of a deity.

But both these stances are reasonably subsumed by the 'nothing' half of your 'belief in something or nothing' phrase, mainly because you have been imprecise in your definition of what the something or the nothing are in which each is purported to or to not believe in.

363 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:24:29pm

re: #356 ArmyWife

Probably right on this board, right now! I want to know - Barry O said he loved Warren Buffet - then Mr. Buffet said the markets were not so hot, and oh by the way, neither are Barry's economic "plans". Barry isn't listening because?

Because the zero has a plan. And it isn't freedom or free-market capitalism.

364 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:24:37pm

re: #350 Salamantis

The Agnostic mantra is "I do not know" they are not in the something set and they are not in the nothing set. Agnostics are excluded because their data is a NON answer an unknown value.

Please try again!

365 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:24:54pm

Police: Hoax Led Workers To Spray Extinguisher, Disrobe
KFC Employees Treated After Being Exposed To Fumes

MANCHESTER, N.H. -- A Hazmat call to a Manchester Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant was determined to have been sparked by a hoax call, police said.

Firefighters were called to the restaurant on Hooksett Road because employees reported eye and skin irritation from a fire extinguisher. When emergency crews arrived, they found three employees disrobed outside of the building.

The employees told police that the restaurant got a call from someone claiming to be from corporate headquarters who asked them to test their fire suppression system. When they did and reported that they had chemicals from the extinguisher on their clothes, the caller told them they needed to take their clothes off.

The workers said they became suspicious when the caller then told them to urinate on each other.

Spray ourselves with hazardous chemicals? Sure thing, boss.

Go outside and strip naked? You got it sir.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Pee on each other? I am starting to think you're pulling my leg, boss.

366 jamgarr  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:25:23pm

CHARLES! - Nix the Ameristar flashing spam! PLEASE!

367 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:25:24pm

re: #354 Naso Tang

But applicants are always being rejected for one reason or another. Who is suing on what basis?

Students/parents from Christian schools where ID/creationism is taught are suing the U CA system because they were rejected for lacking the required science credits. So far, the courts have backed the University system.

368 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:26:43pm

re: #352 zimriel

Oh, I dunno; Anaxagoras has a claim to that title before both of 'em.

Mind you, all three were creationists. To them, the universe was a Rube Goldberg setup. Imagine if we'd grown up on the inner shell of the Dyson sphere in TNG episode "Relics" (the good one, with Scotty in it). On that assumption a creator really is the best possible solution.

Nowadays I suppose they'd be positing a creator outside the bounds of spacetime, like the Pope does...

Well, they believed that the universe - that is, matter - has been here forever, but that a Prime Mover was necessary to set the static mass in motion - after which it was needed for nothing else. Kinda like Deists, except that Deists gave their demiurge the job of creating the matter, then going away somewhere.

369 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:27:00pm

re: #365 Slumbering Behemoth

It was the "and tell them it's raining" part that did it!

370 ArmyWife  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:27:27pm

re: #358 JCM

I am afraid you are rights. His plan stinks, though.

371 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:28:49pm

Chuck Rangel PWNED!

Jason Mattera asks Chuckie about his shady rental property deals, publicly-subsidized Cadillac, and unpaid taxes:

“Why don’t you mind your goddamned business?”

Video at Hot Air!

372 Truck Monkey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:28:49pm

re: #351 3 wood

I put it at better than 50% at this point that the market will get another major sell off and the Dow will drop clsoe to 5,000 and stay there for a long time due to the capital gains taxes that are going to go up. No reason to take the risk.

The inflation is already starting to show up a bit here and there. I think you will see double digit inflation, between 15% and 20%, within 24 months. Maybe 12 months.

So in reality the wheel barrel question might not be that far off the mark? Do you think that Turbotax Timmy will do the same thing for us as he did for the Thai and Indonesian economies in the 90's? It seems that we might be on the same path. I know that Australias former PM was no fan of Geitner based on what he did and didn't do in that crisis.

373 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:29:00pm

re: #338 Piglet-U93

RE: Except for the agnostics everyone believes in something or nothing.

Please enlighten me. What is so dumb about it?

I'm assuming here, but it seems to me that you are saying if one doesn't believe there is a god, then one believes in nothing?

On the other hand, if I were to pretend to be semantically philosophical about it, I would ask you to tell me what is the meaning of something without nothing, and vice versa.

374 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:29:04pm

re: #357 Killian Bundy

Funny you should list all those just now. I clicked over to foxnews.com and was greeted with the big headline, Economy Obama's 9/11?

I think it's a bad comparison, though, because we had no idea 9/11 was coming. The current economic crisis started over a year ago. But in terms of Obama owning this mess? You bet he does.

375 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:29:25pm

re: #362 Salamantis

Agnostics believe in nothing, in the sense that they do not believe in either the presence or the absence of deity - so they have an absence of belief in the presence of a deity (just as they have an abence of belief in the presence of deity). This is different from the atheist belief in nothing, which is the presence of a belief in the absence of a deity.

But both these stances are reasonably subsumed by the 'nothing' half of your 'belief in something or nothing' phrase, mainly because you have been imprecise in your definition of what the something or the nothing are in which each is purported to or to not believe in.

I would argue that being an agnostic, to me, is a complete lack of ability to understand God, any God. This is not denial, it is simply recognition that if there is a God he is by definition beyond my feeble efforts to understand just what the hell he is all about, or not.

376 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:29:44pm

re: #365 Slumbering Behemoth

Police: Hoax Led Workers To Spray Extinguisher, Disrobe
KFC Employees Treated After Being Exposed To Fumes


Spray ourselves with hazardous chemicals? Sure thing, boss.

Go outside and strip naked? You got it sir.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Pee on each other? I am starting to think you're pulling my leg, boss.

And to think. These people probably voted. Now, I wonder how the nation is in the mess that it's in.

377 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:29:55pm

re: #369 OldLineTexan

There's video at the link.

/NOT that kind you perv, it's a news report.
//

378 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:32:30pm

re: #364 Piglet-U93

The Agnostic mantra is "I do not know" they are not in the something set and they are not in the nothing set. Agnostics are excluded because their data is a NON answer an unknown value.

Please try again!

To admit that one does not know is merely honesty. Whatever one's opinion on the presence or absence of a deity might be, it is a belief, since it lacks any supporting empirical evidence whatsoever.

It is a category mistake to confuse and conflate knowledge and belief. The bright line difference between them is the presence or absence of empirical evidence.

It is quite logically possible for there to be both agnostic theists and agnostic atheists - that is, people who admit that they don't know whether or not a deity exists, but nevertheless believe one way or the other. Soren Kierkegaard, for instance.

379 Soona'  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:32:31pm

I'm out.

380 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:34:04pm

re: #373 Naso Tang

I'm assuming here, but it seems to me that you are saying if one doesn't believe there is a god, then one believes in nothing?

On the other hand, if I were to pretend to be semantically philosophical about it, I would ask you to tell me what is the meaning of something without nothing, and vice versa.

I'll answer your question with a question - this is a Creationist thread isn't it?

381 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:34:11pm

re: #376 Soona'

I'm not sure they're the voting type. The article doesn't even mention age, so they might not even be old enough.

382 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:34:13pm

re: #341 cronus

Jindal and Perry know this. They believe they gain political points with theocrats by attacking the Establishment Cause. In fact, they'd probably like nothing better than to provide a test case only to have their ass handed to them in federal court. So it goes with martyrs.

I think the martyrdom is more a driving force than the pandering, but it's awfully convenient that they mesh so well together.

383 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:34:15pm

Oh crap. Check this out. First post on top of the page. Me thinks someone sense of self worth is overly inflated.

/or someone is breaking out a brand new pair of kneepads.

384 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:34:48pm

Five bucks on #390

385 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:34:57pm

re: #375 The Shadow Do

I would argue that being an agnostic, to me, is a complete lack of ability to understand God, any God. This is not denial, it is simply recognition that if there is a God he is by definition beyond my feeble efforts to understand just what the hell he is all about, or not.

I disagree. Many theists devoutly believe in a God whom they equally devoutly maintain is beyond all human understanding.

386 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:35:20pm

re: #383 BlueCanuck

Oh crap. Check this out. First post on top of the page. Me thinks someone sense of self worth is overly inflated.

/or someone is breaking out a brand new pair of kneepads.

Hey Blue! Hope today finds you well

387 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:37:47pm

re: #386 HoosierHoops

Meh, back from vacation and I catch a head cold. At least I was relaxed.

388 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:38:31pm

Definition of Agnostic - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

Therefore, they are not included in the Something (belief in a deity or deities) or Nothing (atheist) groups.

389 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:38:58pm

I am not going to be the evil #390

390 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:39:09pm

OR AM I ?

391 zimriel  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:39:19pm

re: #385 Salamantis

I disagree. Many theists devoutly believe in a God whom they equally devoutly maintain is beyond all human understanding.

Like Obama's budget?

392 doppelganglander  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:39:28pm

re: #345 Luigi

The thing about the stock market that people don't recognize is that this crash is only 'real' to older people. Older people have investments. Obama's most faithful core constituency has very little invested in the market. Young people don't have any substantial money invested, or they have plenty of time for their investments to come back so they don't worry about it. The really dumb ones are probably glad that someone is finally sticking it to the 'rich'. Obama of course encourages that kind of thinking.

You make an excellent point. "The Rich" and "The Poor" are not static groups. People move up and down the income scale throughout their lives. Sure, some people stay poor, and some are born rich and stay that way. But for the most part, the poor are young people, and the rich are their parents and grandparents.

393 JCM  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:40:50pm

re: #390 Buster Bunny

OR AM I ?

*WHACK*

#390 is outta here!
/

394 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:40:53pm

re: #387 BlueCanuck

Meh, back from vacation and I catch a head cold. At least I was relaxed.

Couple years ago I got a horrible cold in the Summer..and I mean it was so hot..How Ironic to get a cold in the summer.. Hang in there bro!

395 ArmyWife  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:40:55pm

Hey Honcos! going up!

396 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:40:58pm

re: #390 Buster Bunny

OR AM I ?

PAY UP!

397 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:41:27pm

re: #392 doppelganglander

You make an excellent point. "The Rich" and "The Poor" are not static groups. People move up and down the income scale throughout their lives. Sure, some people stay poor, and some are born rich and stay that way. But for the most part, the poor are young people, and the rich are their parents and grandparents.

The 'Rich' and the 'Poor' is not a daytime soap opera. Its a interchangable scale of people's places and values set on a society.

398 Piglet-U93  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:42:03pm

Another thread has started and I am going back to watch the Romance of The Three Kindoms episodes 75-77. Good night Lizards.

399 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:42:58pm

re: #385 Salamantis

I disagree. Many theists devoutly believe in a God whom they equally devoutly maintain is beyond all human understanding.

And then they gather in sects and define tenents and on and on. Meaningless fluff, to me, set forth to disguise the "I don't really know". Delusional to say that a belief of that sort is devout.

400 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:43:23pm

re: #395 ArmyWife

Hey Honcos! going up!

Good Evening! what's up?

401 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:43:54pm

re: #400 HoosierHoops

Good Evening! what's up?

Blood pressure.

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:44:09pm

re: #241 ArchangelMichael

I was being somewhat over the top on purpose to make a point about California mindset. I'm not going to link to World NUT Daily's asinine hysteria. It is within the realm of possibility due to SB 7777 and in California, we bend over backwards to the point of breaking our backs to make sure no one is offended except for Christians, social conservatives, and taxpayers. There's a snowball's chance in hell of a stealth creationism bill floating in California compared to what I posted about.

In other words, it's not actually happening, and you think the people who say it is are 'asinine'. Good. That's one less thing for me to worry about.

403 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:44:15pm
404 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:44:19pm

re: #388 Piglet-U93

Definition of Agnostic - a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

Therefore, they are not included in the Something (belief in a deity or deities) or Nothing (atheist) groups.

Buit here you furnish definitions/characterizations of 'something' and 'nothing' that were absent in your original contention.

No fair moving the goalposts.

405 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:44:34pm

re: #400 HoosierHoops

Good Evening! what's up?

Caffiene levels AND Blood Pressure.

406 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:46:20pm

re: #375 The Shadow Do

I would argue that being an agnostic, to me, is a complete lack of ability to understand God, any God. This is not denial, it is simply recognition that if there is a God he is by definition beyond my feeble efforts to understand just what the hell he is all about, or not.

Sounds pretty much like what most believers (other than the most vain ones) would say.

407 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:46:40pm

re: #399 The Shadow Do

And then they gather in sects and define tenents and on and on. Meaningless fluff, to me, set forth to disguise the "I don't really know". Delusional to say that a belief of that sort is devout.

When people are willing to kill and die for such beliefs, it is hard to maintain that they are not devout. Whether or not they are delusional is another matter entirely.

408 BlueCanuck  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:47:54pm

re: #394 HoosierHoops

Oh, I will. It's just enough to be annoying rather then debilitating. Heading to the new thread now.

409 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:48:33pm

re: #380 Piglet-U93

I'll answer your question with a question - this is a Creationist thread isn't it?

It is what you make of it.

410 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:49:47pm

re: #401 OldLineTexan

Blood pressure.

LOL I almost posted a snarky little comment to you dude about needing to run more...But then I remembered that a couple of hours ago SpaceJesus posted on the Thread..MY BP went up about 6 million points..I hated how he insulted some lizards..I down dinged him within seconds..
Then went back and reversed it..What the heck..I may not like SpaceJesus..But I don't come here to start wars...
I love this site...

411 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:53:35pm

re: #407 Salamantis

When people are willing to kill and die for such beliefs, it is hard to maintain that they are not devout. Whether or not they are delusional is another matter entirely.

When belief and not knowledge become the basis of devotion, all sort of thing is sure to follow.

412 OldLineTexan  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:54:02pm

re: #410 HoosierHoops

LOL I almost posted a snarky little comment to you dude about needing to run more...But then I remembered that a couple of hours ago SpaceJesus posted on the Thread..MY BP went up about 6 million points..I hated how he insulted some lizards..I down dinged him within seconds..
Then went back and reversed it..What the heck..I may not like SpaceJesus..But I don't come here to start wars...
I love this site...

LOL.

The BP ain't from here. I can turn THIS off if need be.

Ya know?

But I relaxed with Bela upstairs!

413 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:54:38pm

re: #406 Naso Tang

Sounds pretty much like what most believers (other than the most vain ones) would say.

I work the other way. I am a believer in a supreme creator on the basis that such a magnificent sequence of events that lead to mankind existing are more than chance. For instance .. to create the randomness of DNA in a lab takes a chance encounter with a bunch of chemicals and a large amount of electricity. But in the early stages of Earth's existense, THOSE CONDITIONS WERE COMMONPLACE. Same with legs, if it hadnt been for a swampy environment .. there would have been no need for limbs! And being the smallest part of the food chain increased our breeding cycles .. hence our chances for better long term adaptation.

Ok its only three definitive sequences .. but if you assume that god has a plan and we were meant to be part of it, the sequence that leads to it is just as amazing as the end result.

414 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:55:12pm

re: #399 The Shadow Do

And then they gather in sects and define tenents and on and on. Meaningless fluff, to me, set forth to disguise the "I don't really know". Delusional to say that a belief of that sort is devout.

Smug, self-certain arrogance is the worst enemy of science and truth.
Major religions teach humility and a recognition that the little which man knows is far outweighed by what he does not.

415 pingjockey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:56:53pm

Granted SCOTUS will scotch the teaching of creationism as science, but don't these asshats realize that if by some mad chance it does get in then you'll have to give EQUAL time to all other religions ideas about creation. Or do these fools think only THEIR idea of creation will be taught because it is the CORRECT one? Damn idiots.

416 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 5:59:40pm

re: #415 pingjockey

I condemn the teaching of ignorance and fantasy in the classroom. The classroom is a place designed so that working men and women do not have to spend time educating their children in the ways of life. Hence people who are presented with trivial irrelevancies and wrong information, are people who cannot support themselves existing in a REAL world atmosphere.

417 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:02:49pm

re: #403 Iron Fist

That is an interesting definition. Very precise, and factually correct.

I'm less sure about what it really tells us. Species change, but do they become other species? The definition of speciation when I was coming through school meant that two organisms were a different species when they were different enough that they could not produce fertile children. Thus a horse and a donkey were two different species, most likely with a common ancestor that looked very similar to a horse or a donkey, because they can produce a mule, a non-fertile child.

Based on that definition, it is difficult to make a generalization on speciation by way of evolution, as you have defined evolution above. That it does occure appears to be true. That everything developed this way is not a sure bet. Certainly when we covered human evolution in anthropology, there was a lot of guesswork and assumption about things that since could not be certain of. Of course, when I had this course, Neanderthals were considered to be an ancestor species of humans (and the science was settled). Now it is my understanding that Neanderthals are considered to be a parallel strain of evolution with a hypothesized common ancestor between the two. A brief search turns up this, but that doesn't answer the more fundamental question that I have which woulod be could a Neanderthal and a Homo Sapiens produce fertile offspring?This looks interesting as it indicates that the belief is that Homo Sapiens are of relatively recent events, but that still doesn't answer the basic question of whether or not Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals could produce fertile offspring.

If they could, then under the definition of speciation that I learned in school, they aren't different species at all. It is my understanding that the genetics of Darwin's finches show that they are all the same species if the question of fertile offspring is addressed. It is can they, not will they. IIRC, Darwin posited that they were different species (and depending on how you define it, might still be different species) because of the shapes of their various beaks. Certain beak shapes would not mate with other beak shapes (or weren't believed to mate with them). That, in and of itself, wouldn't indicate that they were really different species at all.

This is certainly the way human evolution has been for all of recorded history. There is one, and only one, human species. We may not all look the same, nor will we all be willing to mate with all others of the opposite sex, but on a fundamental level we are the same. And have been for thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of years. It is interesting that there is only one human species when we are adapted to every climate available with the sole exception being the frigid climate of Antarctica.

Interesting.

It is also undeniably the case, from the overwhelming artifactual retroviral DNA sequence evidence, that humans and great apes evolutionarily speciated and diverged from ancient common ancestors a few million years ago (not to mention the fact that we share almost 99% or our overall genetic sequences with them). And yet they have never been known to interbreed. And other shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences link us with more distant species with whom we shared more ancient common ancestors - as do other shared more endogenous genetic sequences.

418 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:05:42pm
419 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:07:02pm

re: #413 Buster Bunny

I work the other way. I am a believer in a supreme creator on the basis that such a magnificent sequence of events that lead to mankind existing are more than chance. For instance .. to create the randomness of DNA in a lab takes a chance encounter with a bunch of chemicals and a large amount of electricity. But in the early stages of Earth's existense, THOSE CONDITIONS WERE COMMONPLACE. Same with legs, if it hadnt been for a swampy environment .. there would have been no need for limbs! And being the smallest part of the food chain increased our breeding cycles .. hence our chances for better long term adaptation.

Ok its only three definitive sequences .. but if you assume that god has a plan and we were meant to be part of it, the sequence that leads to it is just as amazing as the end result.

You are simply referring to the environment that naturally selects from among random genetic mutations. And other species that help to comprise that environment were selected, too, by that environment - including the challenges and opportunities that each posed to the others. It's known as co-evolution.

420 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:07:04pm

re: #416 Buster Bunny

I condemn the teaching of ignorance and fantasy in the classroom. The classroom is a place designed so that working men and women do not have to spend time educating their children in the ways of life. Hence people who are presented with trivial irrelevancies and wrong information, are people who cannot support themselves existing in a REAL world atmosphere.

Learning how to think is at least as important as learning a particular set of facts. Filling one's head with bullshit is another matter entirely.

421 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:09:18pm

re: #414 Spare O'Lake

Smug, self-certain arrogance is the worst enemy of science and truth.
Major religions teach humility and a recognition that the little which man knows is far outweighed by what he does not.

Not a scholar on religion, but I wonder which major religion/sect does not, in detail, attempt to define man's place on earth within a set of dictums set in place by the teachings of other men? This is certainly an attempt to explain the unknowable. Buddhism (an expression of complete humility?) seems to me the natural outcome of being an agnostic and not so much a religion.

Is humility a virtue or an excuse, I wonder. All I know is that I do not know and as I grow older and older the more certain I become that I will never know.

422 Buster Bunny  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:09:55pm

re: #420 Spare O'Lake

Learning how to think is at least as important as learning a particular set of facts. Filling one's head with bullshit is another matter entirely.

I've dealt with ex-Soviet ideas and some of them come out of the Cold War with ideas that were literally pure fantasy. So when it came to dealing with the real world, a lot of them came to me (I was doing some charity work) on the basis that I would know how to help them live a normal life.

Without proper education as to how the world works .. you exist in a fantasy bubble and are susceptible to that bubble breaking.

423 Sharmuta  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:10:19pm

re: #403 Iron Fist

Cousin Fist- there is quite a bit of new information out there that I think would help answer some of your questions. Ken Miller's Only A Theory is very good, and I'm really enjoying Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True.

424 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:13:11pm

re: #423 Sharmuta

Cousin Fist- there is quite a bit of new information out there that I think would help answer some of your questions. Ken Miller's Only A Theory is very good, and I'm really enjoying Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution Is True.

He might also enjoy and benefit from Jerry Coyne's other, more academic book, entitled Speciation. It is a good deal more expensive, however.

[Link: www.abebooks.com...]

425 jaunte  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:18:18pm

re: #415 pingjockey

Granted SCOTUS will scotch the teaching of creationism as science, but don't these asshats realize that if by some mad chance it does get in then you'll have to give EQUAL time to all other religions ideas about creation. Or do these fools think only THEIR idea of creation will be taught because it is the CORRECT one? Damn idiots.

I think they believe they will win any fight they start, because you know who is on their side.

426 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:19:04pm

Btw: modern Homo Sapiens only dates back a couple of hundred thousand years, and can be gentically traced through Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam (who lived about 50 thousand years AFTER Mitochondrial Eve:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

427 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:20:01pm

re: #421 The Shadow Do

Is humility a virtue or an excuse, I wonder.

Humility is, I think, both a virtue and an excuse.
the two are not mutually exclusive.
And excuses are highly underrated, don't you think?

428 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:22:49pm

re: #422 Buster Bunny

Without proper education as to how the world works .. you exist in a fantasy bubble and are susceptible to that bubble breaking.

Folks in the derivative markets on Wall Street were pretty sure they knew how the world works.
Turns out they knew sweet fuck-all.

429 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:23:05pm

re: #427 Spare O'Lake

Humility is, I think, both a virtue and an excuse.
the two are not mutually exclusive.
And excuses are highly underrated, don't you think?

Absolutely, given my poor excuse for argument! LOL

430 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:26:37pm

Dishonesty is neither Christian or Scientific, Don McLeroy. It must be hell when your comfort zone is built on the promotion of a lie. Step out and see the truth - whatever it is, it is. Science will be saved and your knowledge of Christ will have grown.

You think you can't, you wish you could
I know you can, I wish you would.

431 pingjockey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:33:15pm

re: #425 jaunte
They are frakkin' delusional.

432 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:33:56pm

re: #413 Buster Bunny

I was referring to the definition of agnostic used earlier, meaning that it sounded little different from a believer in that it recognized a lack of understanding. I tend to use the word in the more common sense, meaning undecided.

As to your explanation I am not here to debate belief or not belief in God. If you can reconcile science and religion without debasing either that is a good thing.

433 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:34:54pm
434 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:42:01pm

re: #433 Iron Fist

You know, man, what I find so amusing about you is the juxtaposition of your scathing contempt for theology (or at least Judeo-Christian theology) and your absolute, childlike faith it whatever scientists happen to agree on today as being absolute gospel. Even when you are shown that scientists as little as 20 or 30 years ago were just as convinced in things that today they are certain are not true.

It's priceless. Don't ever change.

:-)

I hold contempt for theology only when it illegitimately masquerades as empirical science, and when it does so, my contempt is utter and absolute.

The artifactual retroviral DA sequences that humans and great apes share sure as hell ain't changing (except in the snail's pace of evolutionary time), and they are checkable and re-checkable at will.

Maybe one day you will allow such vast and massive empirical evidence to penetrate your 'I ain't related to no stinkin' ape' consciousness.

435 pingjockey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:45:53pm

"Get your stinking hands off of me, you damn dirty ape"! :)

436 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:48:17pm

re: #435 pingjockey

"Get your stinking handsgenes off of me, you damn dirty ape"! :)

FTFY

437 pingjockey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:49:49pm

re: #436 Salamantis
Heh. Thank you kindly.

438 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:50:16pm
439 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:53:11pm

re: #438 Iron Fist

Like I said, man. Don't ever change. And wow! You actually dinged me down. How very mature of you.

Somehow, I'll just have to try and get over it.

Just for you, Iron Fist:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Excerpt:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.

440 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 6:54:04pm

I have a half sarcastic bone to pick....

I just got back from Meghila reading. I am pleasantly buzzed. All is right with the universe, the bad guys got hung .... and then I have to see this!

This makes me cranky.

How about we go to Texas board meetings and everytime they violate seperation of church and state or say some egregious ID reference, we spin groggers and boo!

On a side note, as a twenty first century Purim, every time the name was said, a bank of electronic fart machines was sounded. They would be good at such a board meeting too. I think it would lend the appropriate air of dignity.

441 [deleted]  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 7:05:41pm
442 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 7:13:06pm

re: #435 pingjockey

"Get your stinking hands off of me, you damn dirty ape"! :)

Sure..Let's see you post that the next time Mandy pats you on the back ping..
/

443 pingjockey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 7:16:18pm

re: #442 HoosierHoops
Sure!......NOT!

444 pingjockey  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 7:20:59pm

Vaya con Dios.

445 Zimriel  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 7:21:57pm

re: #433 Iron Fist

You know, man, what I find so amusing about you is the juxtaposition of your scathing contempt for theology (or at least Judeo-Christian theology) and your absolute, childlike faith it whatever scientists happen to agree on today as being absolute gospel. Even when you are shown that scientists as little as 20 or 30 years ago were just as convinced in things that today they are certain are not true.

It's priceless. Don't ever change.

:-)

Where did Salamantis say that he thought "whatever" scientists agree on is "absolute" fact?

Your posts are getting dinged not because they're wrong. Anybody can be wrong. They're getting dinged because they've been misrepresenting another poster's position, and snidely at that.

446 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 7:35:47pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

From the UK:

Creationism 'should be taught in science lessons'

Disgusting.

447 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 8:14:40pm

re: #446 Jimmah

But there is a brighter note from that article:

Last year, Prof Michael Reiss quit as director of education at the Royal Society after scientists attacked his suggestion that it should tackled in biology lessons.

I'm glad to learn that. He was proposing a version of the 'giving in to them is the best way to defeat them" meme.

448 spaceman  Mon, Mar 9, 2009 11:51:17pm

re: #128 Salamantis

No, not yet. A friend of mine ordered it, and he's gonna loan it to me when he finishes it. How is it?

I'm halfway through. I recommend it highly. It does a nice job of assembling facts and illuminating the inescapable conclusions.

449 Land Shark  Tue, Mar 10, 2009 7:16:09am

The Texas Board of Education will be stuck on stupid as long as this guy's in charge. It's disturbing to me to see these creationists having so much influence not just in Texas but in other states as well. These people are gonna kill science education if they are not stopped.


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