Former Nazi Guard Charged 29,000 Times

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Former Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk has been charged in Germany with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder.

BERLIN – German prosecutors said Wednesday they have charged retired Ohio auto worker John Demjanjuk with more than 29,000 counts of accessory to murder for his time as a guard at the Nazis’ Sobibor death camp, and will seek his extradition from the U.S.

Demjanjuk (dem-YAHN’-yuk) is accused of participating in the murders while he was a guard at the Nazi camp in occupied Poland between March and September 1943.

“In this capacity, he participated in the accessory to murder of at least 29,000 people of the Jewish faith,” Munich prosecutors said in a statement.

The 88-year-old Demjanjuk, who lives in a Cleveland suburb, denies involvement.

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855 comments
1 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:39:00am

He was found guilty by Israeli courts at one time and sentenced to death, but that sentence was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court because witnesses misidentified him as Ivan the Terrible from the Treblinka death camp. He's now facing deportation from the US yet again to Germany to face those charges. Here's hoping the Germans have the evidence to convict the bastard.

2 turn  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:39:31am

It would be interesting to find out just how he ended up in Ohio.

3 notutopia  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:39:54am

Thank God. My faith in the legal system has been restored on this ruling. He deserves every single one of the 29,000 counts.
Amen.

4 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:41:34am

Just waiting for the charges to be read court could be a life sentence.

5 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:42:09am
6 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:44:07am

re: #5 buzzsawmonkey

Those Nazis really knew how to accessorize.

Sounds like a movie title for Logo network.

Accessorize to Murder.

7 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:45:46am

re: #2 turn

It would be interesting to find out just how he ended up in Ohio.


Possibly a paperclip.

8 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:46:15am

When does the 0bama administration offer him a cabinet position?

9 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:46:59am

re: #8 Kosh's Shadow

When does the 0bama administration offer him a cabinet position?

He's got the requisite Jew hatred, but is he behind on his taxes?

10 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:47:13am

When will VB protest?

11 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:47:25am

What's the point?

12 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:47:27am

re: #7 ludwigvanquixote

Possibly a paperclip.

Or, he lied out of his a**

13 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:47:29am

re: #8 Kosh's Shadow

When does the 0bama administration offer him a cabinet position?

Harsh my brother, harsh... The good news is that we got rid of that other appointee... I already forgot his name :)

14 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:47:36am

Pat Buchanan gets a lifetime of scorn for defending this scumbag.

15 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:47:52am

re: #7 ludwigvanquixote

Possibly a paperclip.

I don't see a guard at Sobibor being involved in anything of interest to paperclip, unless he was something more than a guard- CW specialist maybe?

16 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:48:13am

re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote

Harsh my brother, harsh... The good news is that we got rid of that other appointee... I already forgot his name :)

all hail the Jewish Lobby!

17 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:48:30am

re: #11 Myrddin Emrys

What's the point?

What do you mean?

18 wiffersnapper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:48:44am

He should claim to be a Muslim convert if he wants to get away from this scot-free.

19 zombie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:49:01am

Demjanjuk is still alive? I remember them trying to prosecute him decades ago.

Not that I support any mass-murdering Nazi guard, but what "puzzles" me is the way so much energy is focused specifcially on Demjanjuk by Germany, when their entire country has for decades been home to thousands -- tens of thousands, more likely -- former guards like Demjanjuk, and they were never prosecuted. What gives?

I even once met a former concentration camp guard -- he was the father of a friend of someone I was visiting there. He spoke of it openly. Never charged with anything.

After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"

20 turn  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:49:06am

re: #7 ludwigvanquixote

Possibly a paperclip.

I'm sorry ludwig, could you elaborate on that?

21 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:49:29am

re: #17 Walter L. Newton

What do you mean?

What good does deporting and prosecuting him do for anyone? Sounds like a waste of time and money

22 turn  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:50:08am

re: #14 JammieWearingFool

Pat Buchanan gets a lifetime of scorn for defending this scumbag.

He did? Wow.

23 wiffersnapper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:50:37am

re: #14 JammieWearingFool

Doesn't he get that from us already?

24 jemima  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:51:02am

re: #20 turn

I'm sorry ludwig, could you elaborate on that?

Operation Paperclip repatriated Nazis to America after the war.
Google it.

25 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:51:10am

re: #21 Myrddin Emrys

What good does deporting and prosecuting him do for anyone? Sounds like a waste of time and money

Er, because he is accused of committing war crimes, sort of just a little detail there. Are you serious?

26 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:51:12am

re: #19 zombie

Demjanjuk is still alive? I remember them trying to prosecute him decades ago.

Not that I support any mass-murdering Nazi guard, but what "puzzles" me is the way so much energy is focused specifcially on Demjanjuk by Germany, when their entire country has for decades been home to thousands -- tens of thousands, more likely -- former guards like Demjanjuk, and they were never prosecuted. What gives?

I even once met a former concentration camp guard -- he was the father of a friend of someone I was visiting there. He spoke of it openly. Never charged with anything.

Also, according this article, he was charged with being "Ivan the Terrible" at Treblinka back in the 80's, but now he was a guard at Sobibor? Which one is it?

After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"

27 turn  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:51:25am

bbl - lunch with turnspawn

28 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:51:34am

re: #15 CIA Reject

I don't see a guard at Sobibor being involved in anything of interest to paperclip, unless he was something more than a guard- CW specialist maybe?

I'm not saying that I know that he was a paperclip. I am saying that the US was remarkably uncooperative about nailing him for some years before things changed for him in the 80's. If he were just some shmuck who lied his way in and settled in Ohio, the actions of the US govt doesn't make a lot of sense.

Who knows? Maybe he also interrogated, or claimed to have interrogated Russians.

29 so.cal.swede  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:51:36am

justice... it's coming for you.

30 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:52:04am

There were no death camps. The Holocaust did not happen.
Therefore this man is innocent.

/
Not having ever seen any of the evidence, I have to await trial to determine whether he is innocent or guilty. That being said, if innocent, he shouldn't fight extradition.

31 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:52:12am

re: #21 Myrddin Emrys

What good does deporting and prosecuting him do for anyone? Sounds like a waste of time and money

If there is the evidence against him he MUST be brought to book. I don't care if he is 102 and on his death bed. History is what we learn from.

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:52:13am

re: #16 Eowyn2

all hail the Jewish Lobby!


Your check is in the mail :)

33 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:52:36am

re: #19 zombie

Demjanjuk is still alive? I remember them trying to prosecute him decades ago.

Not that I support any mass-murdering Nazi guard, but what "puzzles" me is the way so much energy is focused specifcially on Demjanjuk by Germany, when their entire country has for decades been home to thousands -- tens of thousands, more likely -- former guards like Demjanjuk, and they were never prosecuted. What gives?

I even once met a former concentration camp guard -- he was the father of a friend of someone I was visiting there. He spoke of it openly. Never charged with anything.

After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"

Also, he was accused of being "Ivan the Terrible" at Treblinka back in the 80's, but now he was a guard at Sobibor? Which one was it?

34 dhg4  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #1 lawhawk

He was found guilty by Israeli courts at one time and sentenced to death, but that sentence was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court because witnesses misidentified him as Ivan the Terrible from the Treblinka death camp. He's now facing deportation from the US yet again to Germany to face those charges. Here's hoping the Germans have the evidence to convict the bastard.

It's a little more complicated than that according to Judge Kozinski.

In reaching this conclusion, the court adopted a standard much more rigorous than that normally employed in the United States. An appellate court here would look at the evidence in the light most favorable to the prosecution and ask itself whether a rational jury could have convicted; it would reverse only if the evidence absolutely required acquittal. This standard recognizes that not all the evidence presented in a criminal trial will fit into a neat, consistent pattern. In figuring out what happened, juries often discard pieces of the puzzle that don't match up, such as testimony from the defendant's mother that they were home together watching T.V. on the night of the crime. Such evidence certainly can create a reasonable doubt, but it can also be rejected as too improbable.

What the Israeli Supreme Court looked for here--and did not find--was "an additional layer of evidence," something to explain away or refute the statements from the KGB files. Because the statements came into the record with none of the tethers that normally tie proof to the real world--no opportunity to cross-examine, no proof of authenticity, nothing at all that would make them reliable enough to be admitted under ordinary circumstances--it became virtually impossible for the prosecution to deal with them. Their very unreliability made them immune to attack.

Subtly woven into the common law woof of the Israeli Court's opinion are the warp threads of talmudic law. The willingness to admit any evidence--even that of highly doubtful reliability--so long as it helps the accused, while demanding that the prosecution come up with a concrete, rational explanation to dissipate the doubt so created, is far more consistent with the processes of the Sanhedrin than those of the common law.

The Israeli Court's decision to exonerate Demjanjuk of the Ivan the Terrible charge may also have been based on practical considerations. Israel does not have a death penalty for crimes other than those relating to the Holocaust or treason, and the only person executed in the nation's history was Adolf Eichmann more than thirty years ago. Even then, there was opposition to the execution. The court might have thought it wise to avoid the upheaval that would surround another death sentence.

35 mikeymom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:53:17am

why is this monster still breathing air?

36 so.cal.swede  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:53:30am

re: #19 zombie

Demjanjuk is still alive? I remember them trying to prosecute him decades ago.

Not that I support any mass-murdering Nazi guard, but what "puzzles" me is the way so much energy is focused specifcially on Demjanjuk by Germany, when their entire country has for decades been home to thousands -- tens of thousands, more likely -- former guards like Demjanjuk, and they were never prosecuted. What gives?

I even once met a former concentration camp guard -- he was the father of a friend of someone I was visiting there. He spoke of it openly. Never charged with anything.

After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"

That can't be healthy, surely...

37 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:54:23am

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm not saying that I know that he was a paperclip. I am saying that the US was remarkably uncooperative about nailing him for some years before things changed for him in the 80's. If he were just some shmuck who lied his way in and settled in Ohio, the actions of the US govt doesn't make a lot of sense.

Who knows? Maybe he also interrogated, or claimed to have interrogated Russians.

I wasn't questioning your analysis - I was just pointing out the possibility that maybe this guy is/was more than the German gov't claims he is.

38 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:55:28am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

Er, because he is accused of committing war crimes, sort of just a little detail there. Are you serious?

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

39 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:56:02am

re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote

Your check is in the mail :)

about damn time. I gots taxes to pay, a porch to concrete (as well as steps) and a whole basement to dig out and finish. Lets get with the program. I'd prefer a number of unsequential small checks.

40 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:56:14am

re: #31 Erik The Red

If there is the evidence against him he MUST be brought to book.

but why?

41 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:56:22am

Coincidentally, I watched The Pianist for the first time the other night and was deeply moved.
As far as I'm concerned the entire German nation got off lightly for what they perpetrated. May the memory of that generation live forever in infamy.

42 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:56:32am
43 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:56:43am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

What part of "if he did the crime he must do the time" don't you understand?

44 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:56:45am

re: #20 turn

I'm sorry ludwig, could you elaborate on that?

Operation paperclip was an OSS/CIA project to get useful Nazis into our hands. Werner Van Braun is a great example. Paperclip itself was directed at Nazi scientists.

Other operations went for Nazi intelligence types and we founded much of the West German intelligence community out of the old Nazi spy apparatus.

In the lore of people who look into these things, "paperclipped" covers all such programs to rehabilitate "useful" nazis by America or the Allies.

45 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:57:00am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

Can't we all just get along. Jerk.

46 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:57:19am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

If a man murders your sister, would you still hold a grudge after 60 years or would it be something that you could 'get over' without closure?

47 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:57:27am

Is it my imagination, or is it monster day at LGF?

I'm not complaining--just categorizing.

48 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:57:41am

re: #40 Myrddin Emrys

but why?

BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO

49 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:58:03am

No statute of limitations on crimes against humanity.

50 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:58:11am

re: #37 CIA Reject

I wasn't questioning your analysis - I was just pointing out the possibility that maybe this guy is/was more than the German gov't claims he is.


That is what I suspect.

51 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:58:52am

Has Pat Buchanan released a statement in support of his "soul" brother?

52 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:59:00am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

His victims? His victims are dead - he's being charged with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder. I'm sure the families of his victims would love to see the closure of this man brought to justice.

---

As for questions of his identity, some put him at Treblinka, while the German authorities believe he was at Sobibor.

53 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:59:13am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

Because sometimes you have to do the right thing, if for no other reason, than it's the right thing to do.
Seems pretty elementary.

54 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:59:20am

re: #40 Myrddin Emrys

but why?

Asshole, for the same damn reason we have laws, courts, rules, convictions, you know, that civilized stuff.

55 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:59:54am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

So, we should all just 'get over it' and let him live the rest of his life in peace and sweetness and light?

Why prosecute anyone for any crime? Shouldn't we all just get over things?

56 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:00:11am

Personally, the Nazis caused misery for my family here and for cousins in Germany. Anytime one of the murdering bastards comes to justice, it is a good thing.

57 victor_yugo  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:00:13am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

For crimes against humanity, there is no statute of limitations.

Even if he is the sole remaining eyewitness to his crimes, he should still be prosecuted.

58 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:00:20am

Thanks for the reference to Operation Paperclip. I wasn't familiar with it, although I'd heard the term.

This link has some brief info on it.

From the article:

The majority of the scientists, numbering almost 500, were deployed at White Sands Proving Ground, New Mexico, Fort Bliss, Texas and Huntsville, Alabama to work on guided missile and ballistic missile technology. This in turn led to the foundation of NASA and the US ICBM program.

It would be interesting to know the route this man took from Germany to Ohio, and if it passed through any of these places. If so, why?

59 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:00:31am

re: #48 Erik The Red

Beat me to it.

GMTA

60 victor_yugo  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:00:51am

re: #49 vagabond trader

GMTA.

61 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:00:58am

re: #21 Myrddin Emrys

There is no statue of limitations for those who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity. It's according to International Law.

62 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:01:07am

re: #11 Myrddin Emrys

What's the point?

Is that you, Pat Buchanan?

63 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:01:33am

re: #9 CyanSnowHawk

He's got the requisite Jew hatred, but is he behind on his taxes?

Too funny.

64 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:01:36am

re: #46 Eowyn2

If a man murders your sister, would you still hold a grudge after 60 years or would it be something that you could 'get over' without closure?

Also we have to REMEMBER what real crimes against HUMANITY are so it NEVER happens again. Also so that one day idiots don't use crimes against humanity for political reasons....ugh...sorry to late for that...never mind.

65 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:02:09am

re: #21 Myrddin Emrys

What good does deporting and prosecuting him do for anyone? Sounds like a waste of time and money

A waste to prosecute someone who participated in genocide? Are you for fucking real?

66 Opinionated  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:02:30am

re: #14 JammieWearingFool

Pat Buchanan gets a lifetime of scorn for defending this scumbag.

What a coincidence that those who are compulsive critics of Israel also defend Nazi murderers.

Here's another one:

President Carter Interceded on Behalf of Former Nazi Guard

[Link: www.nysun.com...]

67 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:02:36am

It's the same as when these cold case files are reopened many decades after the murder. Some determined police officer keeps at it until finally making that personal call on the "kindly old neighbor" living a comfy life in obscurity.In reality he was a heinous rapist murderer 30-40 years ago.

68 MJ  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:03:02am
re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

What you call "holding a grudge", the rest of us call justice.

69 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:03:03am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

FUCK YOU.

70 Bloodnok  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:03:14am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Anyone who is still "holding a grudge"?

Let that sink in, everyone.

People who demand justice for Nazi war criminals, and more importantly the VICTIMS and families of victims, are "holding a grudge"?

The humanity is weak in this one...

71 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:03:21am

HELLO Myrddin Emrys

Do you have the guts to answer any posts directed to you?

72 bolivar  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:03:33am

re: #40 Myrddin Emrys

but why?

Because millions of murdered Jews cry out from the grave for justice and all they get is pantywaists like you saying why should we punish those who did these terrible things.

73 Wilderstad  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:03:37am

re: #40 Myrddin Emrys

but why?

Simple. What you tolerate you get more of.
This says to the world clearly that acts of this nature are NOT tolerated or sanctioned and WILL be prosecuted.
God may be the final judge, but sometimes the reckoning does happen on Earth.

74 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:04:10am

I think we come down on Myrddin Emrys to hard to quickly. We may have lost a chew toy now.

75 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:04:39am

re: #63 WriterMom

Too funny.

It's almost like there is a checklist.

Paglia was railing about Obama's cabinet in her Salon column today. She still likes him, but seems unable to conceive that he is the one surrounding himself with these dolts and is responsible for them, even if he is delegating their selection to Rahm.

76 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:04:45am

re: #64 Nevergiveup

Also we have to REMEMBER what real crimes against HUMANITY are so it NEVER happens again. Also so that one day idiots don't use crimes against humanity for political reasons....ugh...sorry to late for that...never mind.

I've often found the need to personalize the crimes against humanity so that people can picture who "humanity" is. I have used this when educating my son's 'che' friends and it has worked. I also use it when i see people I know with a religion of pieces scarf.

77 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:04:55am
78 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:05:12am

re: #72 bolivar

Not only Jews either.

79 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:05:16am

re: #74 Erik The Red

I think we come down on Myrddin Emrys to hard to quickly. We may have lost a chew toy now.

Asshole's still logged in.

80 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:06:06am

"Well, mister, looks like you'll be eligible for parole in 1.4 million years. With good behavior, maybe 1.3 million!"

81 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:06:22am

re: #75 CyanSnowHawk

I know, I read it. It's a 12 step process. LOL.

82 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:06:26am

Another frightening film in this area is Apt Pupil. Sir Ian McKellen did a masterful job in that one. Horrifying.

83 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:06:28am

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

Asshole, for the same damn reason we have laws, courts, rules, convictions, you know, that civilized stuff.

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

84 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:06:48am

re: #79 MandyManners

Asshole's still logged in.

I bet we don't see another post from "it" for a long time.

ASSHOLE don't FUCK with the JUICE"S here.

85 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:06:50am

re: #72 bolivar

Fucking awesome post.

86 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:07:17am

re: #76 Eowyn2

I've often found the need to personalize the crimes against humanity so that people can picture who "humanity" is. I have used this when educating my son's 'che' friends and it has worked. I also use it when i see people I know with a religion of pieces scarf.

I think that is a great idea, but the day is fast approaching when there will be no live witnesses left. So while there is alot I disagree with Spielberg about, his taping of as many holocaust testimonies as possible is very admirable. I forget the name of his project, if anyone can fill that in for me.

87 Killer Tomato  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:07:17am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

I must be really dense, because this makes no sense whatsoever to me.

88 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:07:24am

re: #75 CyanSnowHawk

Every leftist who has expressed dismay over The Obama still defends him as if he's merely a wayward yet ultimately good natured child. NOTHING is his fault.

89 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:07:34am

re: #1 lawhawk

He was found guilty by Israeli courts at one time and sentenced to death, but that sentence was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court because witnesses misidentified him as Ivan the Terrible from the Treblinka death camp. He's now facing deportation from the US yet again to Germany to face those charges. Here's hoping the Germans have the evidence to convict the bastard.

His defense in Israel was that he couldn't have been "Ivan the Terrible" who was murdering Jews in Treblinka because he was murdering Jews in another camp at the time.

90 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:07:48am

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

Anybody here remember the film "The Music Box?" Jessica Lange plays an attorney whose father is accused of having been part of a Hungarian Nazi group with which he committed atrocities. She defends him, and finds out in the course of the trial that a) her oh-so-ritzy father-in-law is a genteel antisemite, and b) that her father did, in fact, do what he had been accused of, which she had not believed.

Flawed, but very interesting film.

Yes I thought it was pretty good also.

91 calvin coolidge  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:07:52am

I think they should take this guy and attire him in a wig and dress and put him in Saudi Arabia, then have a guy deliver a loaf of bread to him. Let Sharia law take its course and that should be the end of him.

92 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:07:56am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

Thankfully, there's no statute of limitations on murder.

93 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:15am
94 JohnnyReb  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:23am

re: #33 Desert Dog

Also, he was accused of being "Ivan the Terrible" at Treblinka back in the 80's, but now he was a guard at Sobibor? Which one was it?

Thats a big issue I have with this whole thing. They had him at the wrong place 30 years ago and now they have him with these new charges? I am pretty certain most peoples memories fade over the years and to me 30 years is one heck of a long time to suddenly remember something like this.

95 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:28am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

As for "victims"

Any particular reason you are using scare quotes to describe victims of the Holocaust? Pretty tacky. Basically, your position is that anyone who wants justice in this situation is just holding a grudge against the Nazis? Is that really what you think?

96 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:29am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

I am starting to develop a grudge...

97 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:33am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

It's called JUSTICE you fucking asshole.

98 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:38am

re: #71 WriterMom

HELLO Myrddin Emrys

Do you have the guts to answer any posts directed to you?

I write slowly and besides, they all say the same thing: "It is right" or "He has to pay for what he has done" and so on and so forth. I have yet to see a reasoned argument thrown my way

99 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:52am

Wasn't Demjanjuk already tried in Israel?

100 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:08:52am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

We see you talking, you're only spitting letters.

101 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:09:00am

re: #89 Alouette

Fantastic Nazi logic.

102 Bloodnok  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:09:01am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

I don't often swear (and it is Charles' call entirely), but BAN THIS FUCK.

103 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:09:28am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

You actually put qoutation marks around victims?

104 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:09:38am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

The use of your word grudge is troubling. People hold grudges over cross words or starting Thanksgiving dinner without them that year they were late.

"Still" being angry over the murder of over 6 million people and the attempted genocide of every last Jew isn't holding a grudge, it is basic human decency.

105 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:09:51am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

I think you're confusing (perhaps intentionally) the idea of a grudge as opposed to the idea of justice. Even if every one of his victim's relatives have passed on, it is still important to see justice done.

In short, a desire for justice, not to satisfy a grudge.

106 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #98 Myrddin Emrys

Are you a holocaust denier? This is not a trick question.

107 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:09:59am
108 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:10:21am

re: #89 Alouette

His defense in Israel was that he couldn't have been "Ivan the Terrible" who was murdering Jews in Treblinka because he was murdering Jews in another camp at the time.

And then he said, "Whoops, did I just say that? What a dope I am!"

109 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:10:29am

re: #67 vagabond trader

It's the same as when these cold case files are reopened many decades after the murder. Some determined police officer keeps at it until finally making that personal call on the "kindly old neighbor" living a comfy life in obscurity.In reality he was a heinous rapist murderer 30-40 years ago.

Dennis Rader comes to mind ...

110 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:10:32am

re: #99 Ward Cleaver

Wasn't Demjanjuk already tried in Israel?

For a different set of crimes

111 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:00am

re: #98 Myrddin Emrys

Are there any other groups that you feel are unecessarily pursing a grudge, other than Holocaust survivors? Should any victims of genocide have an opportunity to pursue justice? For example anyone who may have survived the Armenian genocide, or slaves who have survived the terror in Sudan, Cambodians-or victims of Stalinist terror? Should everyone just 'get over it', or just the Jews?

112 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:17am

re: #103 MandyManners

You actually put qoutation marks around victims?

I put quotation marks around the word victims because the first time I used it, I actually meant the relatives of victims (as the actual victims are dead, of course) - in my mind, the "victims" or a murder are the surviving friends and relatives of the actual victims. Sorry for the confusion on this point

113 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:20am

Karma: -29

Myrddin Emrys

(Logged in)
Registered since: Dec 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 41
No. of links posted: 0

WHY THE FUCK are you here? 41 posts in 2 and a bit years and you start this shit.

TROLL. BBQ being lit. Bring beers.

114 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:20am

re: #98 Myrddin Emrys

I write slowly and besides, they all say the same thing: "It is right" or "He has to pay for what he has done" and so on and so forth. I have yet to see a reasoned argument thrown my way

What part of 'doing the right thing' seems unreasoned to you?

115 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:40am

re: #106 vagabond trader

Are you a holocaust denier? This is not a trick question.

No, of course not. I just don't have knee-jerk reactions.

116 Dave the.....  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:46am

It's amazing that after 65 years, we still have Nazi war criminals alive.

117 Barking Pumpkin  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:50am

Although this is a good thing, he will probably die of old age before justice can truly be served.
/may his name be erased anyway

118 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:11:55am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

that's not for people like you decide

119 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:12:09am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Look, you moral reprobate, there are reasons for having no statue of limitations for War Criminals and/or those who commit Crimes Against Humanity. The United Nations states the following:

Considering that war crimes and crimes against humanity are among the gravest crimes in international law,

Convinced that the effective punishment of war crimes and crimes against humanity is an important element in the prevention of such crimes, the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms, the encouragement of confidence, the furtherance of co-operation among peoples and the promotion of international peace and security,

Noting that the application to war crimes and crimes against humanity of the rules of municipal law relating to the period of limitation for ordinary crimes is a matter of serious concern to world public opinion, since it prevents the prosecution and punishment of persons responsible for those crimes,

It was agreed upon that there would be NO STATUE of Limitations for such crimes. Understood?

120 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:12:35am

re: #114 LGoPs

What part of 'doing the right thing' seems unreasoned to you?

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

121 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:12:48am

re: #107 Iron Fist

Given half a chance the Democrats and Obama will go after the members of the Bush administration like this. Especially if they think it will help hide how miserably they are failing at every level.

They fucking better not.........
I read that that Stalinist Patrick Leahy is starting up a Truth Commission.
Torches and Pitchforks time.........

122 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:13:04am

Wow. I'm guessing professor....

123 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:13:05am

I have a little story...

One of my very best childhood friends (and still is) comes from a very long line of very decorated soldiers. In fact, he has a direct male line ancestor who served in every spat this nation has been in since the French and Indian War.

He was in Iraq for round one.

Before he was deployed to Iraq though, he was stationed in Baumholder Germany which used to be Rommel's HQ.

He later put together that on the day the story happens, Jewish soldiers had been given duties "elsewhere" to get them off the base.

So my friend was sitting in his barracks when there was a knock at the door and three old guys in suits want to come in. This had been their Barracks. They were SS. They were not German army, but real, live, happily unrepentent, did quite well for themselves after the war, drive their Mercedes, SS.

They were having a reunion.

I was astonished when I heard this story. My buddy asked me what I would have done. "I said that I honestly don't know. I can't imagine not wanting to get my rifle."

My friend said that he talked with them. I asked him why.

He said that he wanted to sit and look at real evil. He said he was not dissapointed. These guys knew what they were doing and saw themselves as saviors of humanity (well those races that they counted as humanity). They suggested that in time, either Americans would use their "natural racial strength" to clean up "undesirables" or succumb.
They made a lot of strident talk about communists. And they tried to explain why killing Jews was a rational thing to do - though they feel them might have gone "a little too far with that."

They had their little SS party reunion. Got into their Mercedes and drove off.

124 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:13:32am

re: #112 Myrddin Emrys

I put quotation marks around the word victims because the first time I used it, I actually meant the relatives of victims (as the actual victims are dead, of course) - in my mind, the "victims" or a murder are the surviving friends and relatives of the actual victims. Sorry for the confusion on this point

The "victims" are dead? Is the child who saw his siblings and family killed in front of his eyes not a victim? Is a mother who sees her child's head smashed with a rifle but not a victim? Are twins who were experimented upon in Auschwitz not a victim?

125 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:13:35am

re: #120 Myrddin Emrys

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

it's the law

126 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:13:46am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

And how is society protected by allowing someone to 'get away with it' simply because it happened a long time ago and they are old now? Doing so sets a bad example.

127 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:14:05am

I am curious about this fellow. The Israeli government spent a lot of time and money trying to get this guy convicted of being "Ivan the Terrible" at Treblinka. He was in their custody for 7 years! Then, they determined that he was not "Ivan". Now, 20 years later, the German government says he was a guard at Sobibor?

Not to take away from this man's actions during the war. I think he is probably guilty of something, otherwise, he would have not garnered the attention he has, but, as Zombie mentioned in an earlier post, why would Germany, which is home to countless former Nazis and concentration camp guards, suddenly bring this guy back up for charges after all this time. Either he was a big shot at one of these camps, or there is something that we have not been told about this fellow yet. It would be interesting to see exactly what evidence they have against this guy. It will be harder and harder to get eye witness accounts as people of that generation are getting older and older with each day.....he is almost 90 himself.....

128 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:14:09am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

I'm too angry to write anything which wouldn't incur Stinky's wrench - so all I'll say is that you are so wrong, it is beyond understanding.

129 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:14:22am

re: #112 Myrddin Emrys

I put quotation marks around the word victims because the first time I used it, I actually meant the relatives of victims (as the actual victims are dead, of course) - in my mind, the "victims" or a murder are the surviving friends and relatives of the actual victims. Sorry for the confusion on this point

Oh, go fuck yourself.

130 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:14:39am

re: #124 Nevergiveup

The "victims" are dead? Is the child who saw his siblings and family killed in front of his eyes not a victim? Is a mother who sees her child's head smashed with a rifle but not a victim? Are twins who were experimented upon in Auschwitz not a victim?

ummm... he's being deposed for 29,000 counts of accessory to murder... hard to imagine a living victim of murder

131 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:14:42am

It's one thing to have a guy who kills another guy in a bar fight, gets away, turns his life around and lives as an upstanding citizen for 40 or 50 years, and then to be found out. But it's a different thing when the guy was involved in exterminating thousands of other people, solely because of their religion.

132 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:14:57am

re: #110 Nevergiveup

For a different set of crimes

Ah, okay.

133 Neutral President  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:14am

This reminds me of the end of the Dragnet movie.

"The Reverend Jonathan Whirley received forty three consecutive ninety nine year sentences, which makes him eligible for parole, in seven years"

Hopefully Germany's justice system is not as screwed up as California.

134 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:15am

re: #120 Myrddin Emrys

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

BECAUSE HE ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED MURDER.

135 Killer Tomato  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:17am
Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

The fact that someone has successfully evaded identification, arrest and trial does not negate the debt they owe to society for the commission of their crimes. Because there is no statute of limitations for murder, this individual, if found guilty, still owes that debt and must pay it.
It's the law. What's so complicated about this?

136 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:19am

re: #69 MandyManners

FUCK YOU.

eloquent.

137 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:27am

re: #120 Myrddin Emrys

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

What part of the law don't you understand?
The L
The A
or The W

138 bolivar  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:32am

re: #85 WriterMom

Fucking awesome post.

Awwwww thanks Mom. I always know when I am loved. You made my day - my week ----- aw you know what I mean...shucks.

139 tazzerman  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:33am

The concept of "statute of limitations" could be a problem here for any number of reasons unless his crimes are determined to be 'crimes against humanity' in which case, most countries voted legislation stating that crimes against humanity are not subject to prescription.

I'm no lawyer and I certainly HOPE that time has not ran out against trying Demjanjuk for his crimes but we ARE talking Europe here, where they have the the concept of the "need" to prosecute within "a reasonable delay", an obligation imposed by the European Court of Human Rights.

140 Dave the.....  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:34am

Mandy

Oh, go fuck yourself.

Heh, I was just about to post; "Everyone sounds like Mandy today".

141 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:38am

re: #123 LudwigVanQuixote

Horrifying, but not entirely suprising.

142 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:15:58am

re: #129 MandyManners

Oh, go fuck yourself.

umm... that's an interesting response to a pretty straightforward (and, I think, entirely reasonable) clarification and apology.

143 abaleh  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:03am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

Holding a grudge? are you fucking kidding me?
He's being charged with accessory to thousands of murders. A grudge is something you hold for somebody who stole your milk money, not somebody who shares responsibility (allegedly) for killing whole families, including children, in the most heineous and cold blooded way.
The whole reasoning behind your stupid comment just makes me mad. He hasn't done anything wrong since? WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK? If he is guilty of one percent of what he is accused of doing 60 years ago, having been a saint for the past 60 years would not atone for it.

144 twincitiesgirl  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:07am

DBP
It makes me sick to my stomach to know this bastard has lived for years in freedom, enjoying life, never giving a thought to the brutally murdered Jews that he helped kill. Now that he's a shriveled old man, justice finally has caught up with him, may he get everything he so richly deserves.

145 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:12am

There are two reasons for prosecuting a criminal: One is for justice. The other is for an example to those who might be contemplating the same crime.

Do you have any question in your mind that we would have more theft if we didn't prosecute thieves? I'm not saying we would all become thieves, just that some people are stopped by the thought of punishment.

The message here is that there are some things which the decent part of humanity will not tolerate in any degree, and he was part of it. Yes, he's an old man. That doesn't lessen the crime in any part.

This isn't about grudges. It's about what kind of society we will have.

146 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:16am

re: #115 Myrddin Emrys

There is nothing knee jerk about wanting justice when it involves the greatest crimes in history.

147 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:17am

re: #130 Myrddin Emrys

ummm... he's being deposed for 29,000 counts of accessory to murder... hard to imagine a living victim of murder

Ever hear of living witnesses? Can you define the word witness?

148 Opinionated  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge.

I'll let my mother know. She was excitingly "lucky", she "only" lost her oldest brother in the Holocaust.

The "grudge" she has held for over 60 years still frequently compels her to try to find out what happened to him.

I'll let her know you said to get over it, and also to forget her personal experiences as a 12 year old marked for murder.

149 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:21am

re: #120 Myrddin Emrys

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

If this man committed the crimes of which he's been accused, it would be immoral not to bring him to justice. Participation in a program designed to eliminate an entire group of human beings is a crime so horrendous that to ignore it would be not only wrong, but cause any of us willing to take that path to lose more than a little bit of our own humanity.

150 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:16:50am

re: #144 twincitiesgirl

Also an excellent post. Thank you.

151 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:17:00am

re: #75 CyanSnowHawk

It's almost like there is a checklist.

Paglia was railing about Obama's cabinet in her Salon column today. She still likes him, but seems unable to conceive that he is the one surrounding himself with these dolts and is responsible for them, even if he is delegating their selection to Rahm.

I saw that column earlier and had to laugh at her total cluelessness about O. Her "defense" turned out to be a superb indictment of the man's complete lack of understanding and knowledge.

152 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:17:27am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

Forgetting all about the 'morality' for the moment (I'm pretty sure "thou shalt not murder" is still one of the 10 commandments laid down to Moses,) this isn't about a 'grudge.' It has been almost 8 years since 4 planes were crashed into the WTC, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania. Although I'm sure that most of the relatives and friends of the victims are still carrying a 'grudge'. If, in two years, Bin Laden has still not been caught or killed but he shows up at the US Embassy in Pakistan in Oct of 2011, should we push for extradition? After all, it was less than 5000 who were killed on 9/11/2001.

153 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:17:40am

Reading the article, and taking Ludwig's #44 into account, I doubt he was a part of Operation Paperclip.

A native of Ukraine, Demjanjuk emigrated to the U.S. in 1952 and gained citizenship in 1958.

My sole question is, how solid is the evidence against in light of the Israeli trial against him in the 80s?

Demjanjuk was extradited to Israel in 1986, when the U.S. Justice Department believed he was the sadistic Nazi guard known as Ivan the Terrible from the Treblinka death camp.

He spent seven years in custody before the Israeli high court freed him after receiving evidence that another Ukrainian was that Nazi guard.

The DoJ renewed its case after his citizenship was restored in 1998.

Demjanjuk's U.S. citizenship was restored in 1998, but the U.S. Justice Department renewed its case, saying he was another Nazi guard and could be deported for falsifying information on his entry and citizenship applications in the 1950s.

A December 2005 U.S. court ruling determined that he could be deported to his native Ukraine or to Germany or Poland, but Demjanjuk spent several years challenging that ruling.

Last year, the U.S. Supreme Court chose not to consider Demjanjuk's appeal against deportation, clearing the way for the Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations, which oversees cases against former Nazis, to seek his removal from the United States.

Interestingly, he claims the following:

In denying involvement in war crimes, he has said he served in the Soviet army and became a prisoner of war when he was captured by Germany in 1942.

I am curious to see if he is "Ivan the Terrible" in light of the Israeli court findings. Apparently he has lied in the past, and he could be lying to cover up this part of his past.

154 kafir lover  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:17:50am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

This is not about the utility of society or personal grievances, but about upholding the law. And yes, there is a moral basis - there are consequences and defined punishments that must be carried out.

155 Westward Ho  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:17:55am

Myrddin,

If the Zodiac killer was arrested today would you be arguing that charges be not pressed against him because the crimes were committed 50 yrs ago?

156 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:17:57am

re: #142 Myrddin Emrys

umm... that's an interesting response to a pretty straightforward (and, I think, entirely reasonable) clarification and apology.

Oh, go fuck yourself, you anti-semitic asshole. I bet you goose-step in your dreams.

157 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:18:09am

re: #94 JohnnyReb

Thats a big issue I have with this whole thing. They had him at the wrong place 30 years ago and now they have him with these new charges? I am pretty certain most peoples memories fade over the years and to me 30 years is one heck of a long time to suddenly remember something like this.

Its only since the fall of the Soviet Union that their archives about war criminals ahve been opened.
They, and the other commie states, kept them well under wraps, in order to attack any West german whom they didn't like.
AFAIK, there were hardly any war crime tribunals in East (commie) Germany - and after the Iron Curtain came down, there weren't any in Poland, Hungary, etc either.

158 Wilderstad  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:18:11am

re: #130 Myrddin Emrys

You have a curious narrowly focused way of looking at things.
Yes a murder victim is dead. However, their family, friends, co-workers and others also suffer a loss. The theft of a life of loved one.
Take off your blinkers.

159 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:18:18am

re: #142 Myrddin Emrys

umm... that's an interesting response to a pretty straightforward (and, I think, entirely reasonable) clarification and apology.

you are trying to make some intellectual/moral gymkata from a simple straightforward legal situation....it's pretty simple

160 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:18:52am

re: #140 Dave the.....

Mandy

Heh, I was just about to post; "Everyone sounds like Mandy today".

Today, we are all Mandy.

161 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:18:53am

re: #120 Myrddin Emrys

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

Let me write s-l-o-w-l-y for you so you can u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d.
Because he did B-A-D things and people who do B-A-D things should be held accountable.
Is that articulate enough for you? Or I am being an unsuffistikated rube?

162 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:19:06am

re: #120 Myrddin Emrys

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

Because, you miserable fucker, HE MURDERED 29,000 HUMAN BEINGS. That's not the same as ignoring 29,000 parking tickets, although maybe in your "mind" it is.

163 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:19:12am

re: #130 Myrddin Emrys

ummm... he's being deposed for 29,000 counts of accessory to murder... hard to imagine a living victim of murder

The word is "deported" you fucking moron.

164 pink freud  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:19:15am

re: #145 EmmmieG

"It's about what kind of society we will have."

C'est tout finis! There is the ultimate bottom line.

165 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:19:22am

re: #143 abaleh

If he is guilty of one percent of what he is accused of doing 60 years ago, having been a saint for the past 60 years would not atone for it.

Again, laws are not about morality. Atonement is a purely moral concept. From a Christian (i.e. mine) perspective, no person can atone for their own sins.

166 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:19:43am

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

but there is the teeny matter of 29,000 counts of accessory to murder - 29,000!

You're saying that because it happened years ago, during the holocaust, it should be OK now?

167 mikeymom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:20:34am

wow--the jerks karma is falling like the dow-lol

168 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:20:45am

re: #148 Opinionated

I'll let my mother know. She was excitingly "lucky", she "only" lost her oldest brother in the Holocaust.

The "grudge" she has held for over 60 years still frequently compels her to try to find out what happened to him.

I'll let her know you said to get over it, and also to forget her personal experiences as a 12 year old marked for murder.

My father held a grudge against the Japanese for 40 years. I still hold a grudge against Germany. Not individual Germans who were not born during the holocaust, but certainly against those who were old enough to know. I don't necessarily hate them, but I hold them responsible for both their actions and inactions. Just as today I hold everyone who assists, helps, or by omission of actions helps the terrorist scum kill!

169 kafir lover  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:20:49am

re: #165 Myrddin Emrys

Again, laws are not about morality. Atonement is a purely moral concept. From a Christian (i.e. mine) perspective, no person can atone for their own sins.

Implementation of law is not atoning for a man's sins, it is for the preservation of societal order. I'm curious, where then do you believe that the law comes from?

170 Opinionated  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:20:59am

re: #144 twincitiesgirl

DBP
It makes me sick to my stomach to know this bastard has lived for years in freedom, enjoying life, never giving a thought to the brutally murdered Jews that he helped kill. Now that he's a shriveled old man, justice finally has caught up with him, may he get everything he so richly deserves.

Likely nothing has caught up with him. It's all symbolic. He will likely die in his bed in the US.

171 twincitiesgirl  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:21:19am

re: #165 Myrddin Emrys

Again, laws are not about morality. Atonement is a purely moral concept. From a Christian (i.e. mine) perspective, no person can atone for their own sins.

Don't defame Christians and Christianity by calling yourself a Christian. Of course Hitler did the same.

172 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:22:20am

re: #152 Eowyn2

Forgetting all about the 'morality' for the moment (I'm pretty sure "thou shalt not murder" is still one of the 10 commandments laid down to Moses,) this isn't about a 'grudge.' It has been almost 8 years since 4 planes were crashed into the WTC, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania. Although I'm sure that most of the relatives and friends of the victims are still carrying a 'grudge'. If, in two years, Bin Laden has still not been caught or killed but he shows up at the US Embassy in Pakistan in Oct of 2011, should we push for extradition? After all, it was less than 5000 who were killed on 9/11/2001.

This is a completely inappropriate comparison. Al Qaeda (last I checked) is actively in the terrorism business. The pursuit of bin Laden is a matter of national security, not criminal justics.

173 pink freud  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:22:23am

re: #165 Myrddin Emrys

Again, laws are not about morality. Atonement is a purely moral concept. From a Christian (i.e. mine) perspective, no person can atone for their own sins.

Wrong. Morality is the basic foundation for law. Morality is EXACTLY what laws are about.

174 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:22:59am

re: #123 LudwigVanQuixote

OMG.

Retch.

I admire your friend's patience, and fortitude, in the face of such evil.
I couldn't have been that patient.

Hannah Arendt had it right when she spoke of the banality of evil.

175 Neutral President  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:23:00am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

Um, a 'grudge' is something you hold against someone for cock-blocking you at a club, stealing the promotion you wanted at work, taking credit for something you did...

Being responsible for genocide is so far beyond a 'grudge' that your statements are completely asinine. That is the nicest way I can put this... seriously.

176 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:23:14am
177 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:23:17am

re: #171 twincitiesgirl

Don't defame Christians and Christianity by calling yourself a Christian. Of course Hitler did the same.

I don't think Hitler was particularly fond of Christians actually. His "religion" was national socialism.

178 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:23:20am

re: #165 Myrddin Emrys

You are such a moral imbecile (and that may be a compliment) you do not deserve any further replies to your obscene posts -- clearly you lack the capacity to understand anything with respect to Morality (even the simplest forms). Hence, it is futile to engage with you.

179 tazzerman  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:00am

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Laws, courts, and rules exist for the preservation and protection of the society (societies in the case of international courts) in which they exist. Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries (sharia excepted). What benefit does our society or Germany's (or any other) gain from the prosecution of this man?

As for "victims" (or, I should say, relatives of victims), have you ever held a grudge for 60 years? Have you ever even held a grudge for 10 years? If you have, you know that at some point, the grudge is about you, and not about what made you develop the grudge. Someone who has been holding out for a prosecution for 60 years probably isn't going to get much in the way of closure.

First off there ARE still surivors alive so lets not brush them aside so quickly. Second, we're talking about something a LOT bigger than a 'grudge' here. If this man was truly involved and was an accessory to some 29,000 murders, society in general CERTAINLY has the right to seek justice. Just because he was able to avoid prosecution for 60 years, doesn't mean that the punishment for his crimes is any less valid or warranted does it?

Now leaving that all aside and remembering that the accused is considered innocent until convicted, this man MUST stand trail for his actions those 60+ years ago if for no other reason then to find the TRUTH.

This is NOT a witch-hunt or a grudge match. It IS a search for the truth and that is something that we need all we can get..

180 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:14am

re: #149 subsailor68

If this man committed the crimes of which he's been accused, it would be immoral not to bring him to justice. Participation in a program designed to eliminate an entire group of human beings is a crime so horrendous that to ignore it would be not only wrong, but cause any of us willing to take that path to lose more than a little bit of our own humanity.

Excellent points, and if I may add my own opinion to this base: If this man did commit these crimes, no matter how long ago, he is in danger of losing his immortal soul. If we do nothing, if we do not hold him accountable and do everything practical to get him to acknowledge his guilt and repent of his sins then we are accomplices in his damnation. In short, ignoring his crimes is an act of spiritual cowardice.

181 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:15am

re: #172 Myrddin Emrys

This is a completely inappropriate comparison. Al Qaeda (last I checked) is actively in the terrorism business. The pursuit of bin Laden is a matter of national security, not criminal justics.

It's both, you fucking moron.

182 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:18am

re: #165 Myrddin Emrys

Don't try to pin your attitudes on Christian values. You are really insulting Christians.

183 Westward Ho  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:19am

Myrddin,

Do you think that the trial and execution of Eichmann was unfair and that it did not bring closure to the victims?

184 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:54am

re: #8 Kosh's Shadow

When does the 0bama administration offer him a cabinet position?

Only if he has tax issues as well.
/

185 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:55am

re: #180 CIA Reject

Excellent points, and if I may add my own opinion to this base: If this man did commit these crimes, no matter how long ago, he is in danger of losing his immortal soul. If we do nothing, if we do not hold him accountable and do everything practical to get him to acknowledge his guilt and repent of his sins then we are accomplices in his damnation. In short, ignoring his crimes is an act of spiritual cowardice.

Very well said, my friend!

186 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:24:57am
187 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:25:17am

re: #172 Myrddin Emrys

This is a completely inappropriate comparison. Al Qaeda (last I checked) is actively in the terrorism business. The pursuit of bin Laden is a matter of national security, not criminal justics.

Only when Republicans are in charge.

188 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:25:55am

re: #172 Myrddin Emrys

This is a completely inappropriate comparison. Al Qaeda (last I checked) is actively in the terrorism business. The pursuit of bin Laden is a matter of national security, not criminal justics.

criminal justice IS national security, IMHO

189 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:25:55am

re: #139 tazzerman

The concept of "statute of limitations" could be a problem here for any number of reasons unless his crimes are determined to be 'crimes against humanity' in which case, most countries voted legislation stating that crimes against humanity are not subject to prescription.

I'm no lawyer and I certainly HOPE that time has not ran out against trying Demjanjuk for his crimes but we ARE talking Europe here, where they have the the concept of the "need" to prosecute within "a reasonable delay", an obligation imposed by the European Court of Human Rights.

I think, am not sure, but I think that the Germans passed some laws that Nazi War crimes would not be subject to time limitations.

190 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:26:23am

re: #86 Nevergiveup

I think that is a great idea, but the day is fast approaching when there will be no live witnesses left. So while there is alot I disagree with Spielberg about, his taping of as many holocaust testimonies as possible is very admirable. I forget the name of his project, if anyone can fill that in for me.

I wish I spoke Polish and French. I would comb the countryside for first hand accounts. Knew a French woman many years ago who married a US soldier right after WWII, when the Nazis were occupying France, her father (a farmer) had a hole dug in the ground which he covered with a board and sod, every time the nazis or regular German army were in the area, he hid his daughters in the hole, they were in their very early teens.

191 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:26:34am

re: #189 yma o hyd

I think, am not sure, but I think that the Germans passed some laws that Nazi War crimes would not be subject to time limitations.

They had to have if they are charging him.

192 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:26:34am

Have not heard this guy's name in ages. I think he was rooted out in the mid 80's, IIRC. Thought he was long gone. Ship his Nazi ass off to Germany, and may he get the same mercy he showed his innocent victims. Ivan the terrible or not, he is just as bad for having stood there.

193 Westward Ho  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:26:39am

I am waiting to hear this moral philospher's view on prosecuting Dr. Mengele.

194 twincitiesgirl  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:27:04am

re: #177 Nevergiveup

I don't think Hitler was particularly fond of Christians actually. His "religion" was national socialism.

My point was that Hitler used the Christian label to placate many who would never have tolerated his agenda otherwise.

195 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:27:32am

re: #141 WriterMom

Horrifying, but not entirely suprising.

No, not at all entirely surprising. There are a lot of those bastards who were deemed useful and got on with their lives. For a Japanese equivalent, I don't know if you know about Shiro Ishi and unit 731, but, we found his biological warfare and human experimentation work useful and just let him go. His crimes would rival anything from one of the nazi death camps, and I know how strong the statement is.... testing grenades on people imobalized around a room to look at the damage, repeat to statistical accuracy... testing contagions on whole Chinese villages... VIVISECTION of infected people to see how the contagions spread. Chemical weapons tests.

The difference between Ishi, 731 and Mengele, is that Ishi was actually a careful, if thoroughly evil scientist about his work. He wanted to know how the human body took and sustained differnt types of damage, what contagioins were most effective in killing people etc...

He just used real people like more ethicall scientists would use lab rats.

Ishi died of old age after a second career at Tokyo General Hospital.

196 Myrddin Emrys  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:28:14am

re: #171 twincitiesgirl

Don't defame Christians and Christianity by calling yourself a Christian. Of course Hitler did the same.

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

197 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:28:25am

re: re: #182 WriterMom

Don't try to pin your attitudes on Christian values. You are really insulting Christians.

Especially when true Christian values call for criminals like this to be brought to justice!

198 abaleh  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:28:28am

re: #165 Myrddin Emrys

Again, laws are not about morality. Atonement is a purely moral concept. From a Christian (i.e. mine) perspective, no person can atone for their own sins.

From a Jewish (i.e. mine) perspective, fuck you

199 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:29:17am
200 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:29:17am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

I care... :)

201 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:29:19am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

Nobody here gives a flying fuck about your delicate feelings.

202 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:29:22am

re: #194 twincitiesgirl

My point was that Hitler used the Christian label to placate many who would never have tolerated his agenda otherwise.

I am not trying to argue with you, but I don't remember Hitler relying on to much Christian religion what so ever. The furthest he might have gone is to tell church leaders to shut the hell up or they were next. Which they eventually were.

203 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:29:57am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

I deeply don't care...you are what you are

204 MJ  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:02am

Convention on the
Prevention and Punishment
of the Crime of Genocide

Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.
Article 1

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 3

The following acts shall be punishable:
(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.
Article 4

Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.
Article 5

The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3.

Article 6

Persons charged with genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be tried by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed, or by such international penal tribunal as may have jurisdiction with respect to those Contracting Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction....

Rest here:
[Link: www.hrweb.org...]

205 pink freud  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:04am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

Have a martyr cookie.

(sharmuta's phrase)

206 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:07am
207 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:10am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

The I will say it more nicely. You are a complete fool to have said what you said. Go back to the troll bridge and suck my circumcized member.

208 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:14am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

Tough shit. You offended the memories of thousands of victims of a horrendous crime.

209 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:15am

re: #172 Myrddin Emrys

This is a completely inappropriate comparison. Al Qaeda (last I checked) is actively in the terrorism business. The pursuit of bin Laden is a matter of national security, not criminal justics.

Take your fingers of the keyboard and put them back in your pants. You will have more pleasure down there than you will find here.

210 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:15am

re: #120 Myrddin Emrys

Can you, or anyone else, clearly articulate how prosecuting this man is the "right thing."

He was a Nazi, who stood by and allowed innocents to be murdered. He may have murdered some of them himself. Even if he never laid a hand on anyone, he stood there and allowed innocents to be slaughtered. He is Just as guilty as Hitler himself. They all were, and deserve the same mercy they showed their victims. The getaway driver in a bank robbery who never went inside the bank is just as guilty of murder if a customer is killed in the course of the robbery by the inside men.
Clear enough for you?

211 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:18am

re: #189 yma o hyd

Every signatory to the UN charter has agreed to NO LIMITATIONs with respect to the prosecution of War Criminals and those who commit Crimes Against Humanity. "Adopted and opened for signature, ratification and accession by General Assembly resolution 2391 (XXIII) of 26 November 1968 entry into force 11 November 1970, in accordance with article VIII." Generally speaking, if you commit a murder (say in the United States) and you escape prosecution for 25 years, then a prosecutor can't go after you. However, this is NOT THE CASE with respect to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity...(for the nth time). See my posts above (as to the "rationale").

212 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:27am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

Unreasoned vitriol? You are one absolutely clueless fuck.

Take your own advice and leave, hopefully NEVER to come back.

213 mikeymom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:30:41am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

well, as you can tell, you have deeply offended all of us here. buh-bye, turd.

214 nyc redneck  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:14am

it is a shame he is now a weak 88 yr. old man whose son insists he is too sick
to travel but getting old does not diminish his culpability for the acts he is charged with.
it doesn't work that way regarding such horrendous crimes.
this man needs to answer the charges against him.
bringing him to justice will bring closure to the family and friends of these 29,000 people who were killed.

that hideous time in history needs to be exposed.
and those who had a hand in it must be held accountable.

215 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:16am

Is Myrddin Emrys about to post a weepy "leave John Demjanjuk alone!" video on YouTube?

216 Bloodnok  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:20am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

Seems to be a pattern with you.

217 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:21am

re: #195 LudwigVanQuixote

No, I wasn't aware of this and I will read up on it. Thank you.

218 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:25am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

Go cry to your momma. Don't trip up the stairs.

219 bolivar  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:36am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!

220 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:37am

Attention benny and wiffersnapper! Why have you updinged Myrddin Emrys?

221 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:47am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

ROFLMAO!

222 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:31:58am

re: #182 WriterMom

Don't try to pin your attitudes on Christian values. You are really insulting Christians.

Thanks for that W.M.!

223 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:32:07am

I'M OFFENDED THAT HE IS OFFENDED!

224 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:32:30am

re: #222 eschew_obfuscation

This Jooooooooooo's got yer back!

225 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:32:43am

re: #185 subsailor68

Very well said, my friend!

Thank you.

Most people don't realize that what happened in WWII was not an isolated event that started in 1939 and ended in 1945 - that was only one battle in a war that started long, long ago and continues to this very day.

226 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:32:55am

If someone questions why a half-dozen equals 6, I can explain that a dozen equals 12, and that half of that is 6. And that that 6 equals the first 6.

But when someone questions why 6 = 6, there is no help. You cannot explain to someone who questions the given.

And that the murder of 29,000 people should be punished is a given, such an elemental right to a wrong, that there is no lower layer with which to explain it.

227 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:33:29am

Stinky, cleanup at ailse 196.

228 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:33:36am

re: #215 Occasional Reader

He would, but then he'd be late for the Coalition to Support Elderly Nazis meeting.

229 Opinionated  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:33:39am

re: #168 Nevergiveup

I'm building up a grudge list with almost every news story, every day.

A grudge alone, of course, which the guy seems not to understand, does not mandate justice.

230 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:34:07am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

I tried to respond logically to your points, even though I suspected that you might merely have been trying to be provocative.

That said, there are quite a few folks here who - through birth, relationships, or family - are particularly sensitive to what could be perceived as a willingness to simply let things drop because of years passed, age, whatever.

You need to know that they will respond passionately. Even though I may not be able to empathize, I can certainly sympathize.

231 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:34:17am

re: #227 Lee Coller

Stinky, cleanup at ailse 196.

why?

232 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:34:36am

Merlin Ambrosius, or Myrddin Emrys

A giant helps Merlin build Stonehenge. From a manuscript of the Roman de Brut by Wace (British Library, Egerton 3208)Geoffrey's account of Merlin Ambrosius' early life in the Historia Regum Britanniae is based on the story of Ambrosius in the Historia Brittonum. He adds his own embellishments to the tale, which he sets in Carmarthen, Wales (Welsh: Caerfyrddin). While Nennius' Ambrosius eventually reveals himself to be the son of a Roman consul, Geoffrey's Merlin is begotten on a king's daughter by an incubus. The story of Vortigern's tower is essentially the same; the underground dragons, one white and one red, represent the Saxons and the British, and their final battle is a portent of things to come.

At this point Geoffrey inserts a long section of Merlin's prophecies, taken from his earlier Prophetiae Merlini. He tells only two further tales of the character; in the first, Merlin creates Stonehenge as a burial place for Aurelius Ambrosius. In the second, Merlin's magic enables Uther Pendragon to enter into Tintagel in disguise and father his son Arthur on his enemy's wife, Igraine. These episodes appear in many later adaptations of Geoffrey's account. As Lewis Thorpe notes, Merlin disappears from the narrative after this; he does not tutor and advise Arthur as in later versions.[2]

233 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:34:46am

That was horrible

234 Dekar  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:34:50am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!

235 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:34:52am

re: #217 WriterMom

No, I wasn't aware of this and I will read up on it. Thank you.

Have a very strong stomach before you read up on it. Harmin, Unit 731, Shiro Ishi. be prepared to be very sick and very angry.

236 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:34:59am

re: #113 Erik The Red

Karma: -29

Myrddin Emrys

(Logged in)
Registered since: Dec 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 41
No. of links posted: 0

WHY THE FUCK are you here? 41 posts in 2 and a bit years and you start this shit.

TROLL. BBQ being lit. Bring beers.

This one is not fit to throw to the dogs.

237 nyc redneck  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:35:15am

29,000 people.
twenty nine thousand people.

238 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:35:20am

re: #231 albusteve

why?

When someone announces they're leaving like that, Charles blocks their accounts before they can engage in any more mischief.

239 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:35:23am

re: #192 CapeCoddah

Have not heard this guy's name in ages. I think he was rooted out in the mid 80's, IIRC. Thought he was long gone. Ship his Nazi ass off to Germany, and may he get the same mercy he showed his innocent victims. Ivan the terrible or not, he is just as bad for having stood there.

Too bad we can't ship him there in a cattle car, but it would be unfair to the cattle.

240 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:35:32am

re: #229 Opinionated

I'm building up a grudge list with almost every news story, every day.

A grudge alone, of course, which the guy seems not to understand, does not mandate justice.

Shit if your list is as long as mine? I walked out of Radio City the other night ( Coulter vs Mahar ) because 90% of the crowd went on my shit list!

241 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:36:02am

re: #238 Lee Coller

When someone announces they're leaving like that, Charles blocks their accounts before they can engage in any more mischief.

he may be only leaving the thread

242 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:36:03am

re: #223 WriterMom

I'M OFFENDED THAT HE IS OFFENDED!

Oh yeah? Well I'm offended that you're offended that he's offended.
:)

243 twincitiesgirl  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:36:31am

re: #177 Nevergiveup

I don't think Hitler was particularly fond of Christians actually. His "religion" was national socialism.

I will defer to you on what he actually believed, but it is a widely held misconception. (Google Hitler and Christianity)

friends?

244 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:36:35am

re: #235 LudwigVanQuixote

Have a very strong stomach before you read up on it. Harmin, Unit 731, Shiro Ishi. be prepared to be very sick and very angry.

He should have been held responsible. But he was smart and the cold war was upon us.

245 doppelganglander  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:36:38am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

YOU'RE offended? You're joking, right?

246 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:36:49am

re: #242 LGoPs

Oh yeah? Well I'm offended that you're offended that he's offended.
:)

I am taking grievous offense at all this! ;)

247 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:37:04am

re: #235 LudwigVanQuixote

Have read many, many books on the Holocaust. It must be read and taught. I can handle it.

248 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:37:17am

re: #215 Occasional Reader

Is Myrddin Emrys about to post a weepy "leave John Demjanjuk alone!" video on YouTube?

Once Pat Buchanan is available to film it.

249 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:37:22am

re: #242 LGoPs

Oh yeah? Well I'm offended that you're offended that he's offended.
:)

Oh! Can I be offended too!

What am I so offended by?

250 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:37:32am

re: #226 SIlhouette

If someone questions why a half-dozen equals 6, I can explain that a dozen equals 12, and that half of that is 6. And that that 6 equals the first 6.

But when someone questions why 6 = 6, there is no help. You cannot explain to someone who questions the given.

And that the murder of 29,000 people should be punished is a given, such an elemental right to a wrong, that there is no lower layer with which to explain it.

Well stated. I find the same frustration when I argue with liberals. Can't seem to find any common ground at all with them.

251 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:37:38am

re: #206 Iron Fist

If you want to read on the "Religion" of the Third Reich, it is covered well in Scheirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I don't remember the number of the Chapter, but it is towards the middle of the book. It is a section called The New Order. It covers everything about the unholy Nazi "faith". It was not, even in the faintest way, a "Christian" religion.

This is a more recent and excellent book about this:
The Third Reich: A New History (Paperback)
by Michael Burleigh

I found it utterly fascinating and can highly recommend it!

252 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:37:40am

re: #246 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am taking grievous offense at all this! ;)

call in the defense

253 nikis-knight  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #115 Myrddin Emrys

No, of course not. I just don't have knee-jerk reactions.

I am very comfortable with knee-jerk reactions to murder, and very uncomfortable with people who lack such reactions.

/understatement mode off

254 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:38:19am

Gee. I wonder who will be in all the Bottom Comments.

255 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:38:31am

It's very offensive when people who think Jews should just fucking GET OVER the Holocaust get offended.

256 Killer Tomato  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:39:05am

re: #235 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #217 WriterMom

Have a very strong stomach before you read up on it. Harmin, Unit 731, Shiro Ishi. be prepared to be very sick and very angry.

Seriously. If you're subject to bad dreams, don't. You'll have nightmares. Really.

257 pink freud  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:39:11am

re: #250 LGoPs

Well stated. I find the same frustration when I argue with liberals. Can't seem to find any common ground at all with them.

A barometer of your sanity. :-)

258 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:39:12am

re: #254 MandyManners

Gee. I wonder who will be in all the Bottom Comments.

He/She/It has managed to sweep all ten slots.

259 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:39:16am

re: #165 Myrddin Emrys

Again, laws are not about morality. Atonement is a purely moral concept. From a Christian (i.e. mine) perspective, no person can atone for their own sins.

As a Catholic (also Christian) I have been taught TO ATONE for my sins. The Confessional and penance is atonement. I've never broken a law and gotten caught (I was 12 when I stole that shirt) but I have tried to atone for any sins I committed as a younger person.

260 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:39:45am

re: #243 twincitiesgirl

I will defer to you on what he actually believed, but it is a widely held misconception. (Google Hitler and Christianity)

friends?

OF COURSE. I am only trying to keep things Historically accurate. I think there is a misconception about Hitler and Christianity amongst some. But here on LGF if you stray, someone is usually pretty well versed on things. Hell there are plenty of times I wanted to check some facts or I was wrong, and this place is great for that. Someone always knows.

261 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:39:50am

To all of those who are lurking and might harbor some sympathy for the comments of Myrddin Emrys:

Right now, every minute, every day, every hour, there are millions of people who would happily kill every Jew they could get their hands on. Without regard to age, without regard to disability, without regard to gender, and especially, without mercy.

The civilized rule of law in the Western world is what stops them. Part of the civilized rule of law is that murder has no statute of limitations. There is a very good reason for this; murder is the one crime for which you can never make restitution.*

This isn't about the past. It's about the future.

I'm not Jewish. I just respect the rights of Jews to be alive, and be Jewish.

*Personal opinion, I'm not a lawyer

262 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:39:56am

re: #240 Nevergiveup


Dude, you were in Manhattan...

263 VioletTiger  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:40:50am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

You're right. We don't care that you are offended. I just came to this thread and I can't believe how how horrid and insensitive your comments are. Good riddance.

264 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:41:00am

re: #254 MandyManners

Gee. I wonder who will be in all the Bottom Comments.

A quick look at Bottom Comments shows about 143 negatives on this one thread alone - and as Lee said, a sweep of all ten. Is that close to a record?

265 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:41:20am

re: #211 J.S.

Every signatory to the UN charter has agreed to NO LIMITATIONs with respect to the prosecution of War Criminals and those who commit Crimes Against Humanity. "Adopted and opened for signature, ratification and accession by General Assembly resolution 2391 (XXIII) of 26 November 1968 entry into force 11 November 1970, in accordance with article VIII." Generally speaking, if you commit a murder (say in the United States) and you escape prosecution for 25 years, then a prosecutor can't go after you. However, this is NOT THE CASE with respect to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity...(for the nth time). See my posts above (as to the "rationale").

Yes - thats it. (Saw your post above)

266 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:41:20am

re: #249 jcm

Oh! Can I be offended too!

What am I so offended by?

I don't know. I forgot what I'm offended over but I do know that I need to be offended by something.
*Trying to adjust to living in Obamabizarroworld*

267 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:41:23am

re: #262 brookly red

Dude, you were in Manhattan...

home turf for the neonLibs

268 zombie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:41:24am

re: #42 buzzsawmonkey

The head of custodial staff at my high school had been a member of the Waffen SS and a concentration camp guard. This came out a few years after I had graduated. He was stripped of his citizenship and deported. And yes, he was "a nice man," and good at his job.

My father came in for a great deal of flak from fellow town residents for arguing for his suspension, de-naturalization and deportation; he was "raking up old history," and all that.

I highly recommend -- for you and everyone! -- the Orson Welles film "The Stranger," which is on that very topic!

Truly amazing that Welles made this film in 1946. He foreshadowed the Demjanjuk case and many others.

War crimes commissioner Wilson (Edward G. Robinson) has a mission to track down the errant Nazi war criminals and bring them to justice. One way is to use Konrad Meinike (Konstantin Shayne) as bait by freeing him and following him to his contacts. Meinike, driven by guilt over his actions during the war has become a Christian. Once free he immediately goes to a small Connecticut town and makes contact with his former Nazi associate Franz Kindler (Orson Welles) who is posing as Professor Charles Rankin. Kindler is hiding out as a teacher with a lovely new wife Mary (Loretta Young). When Meineke arrives in town to appeal to Kindler to give himself up, the professor responds by strangling his old associate and hiding the body in the nearby woods. Kindler believes himself safe because no one has an idea of his former identity. Wilson arrives in town following Meinike, posing as an antiques dealer, and starts sniffing out the dangerous Kindler and a confrontation of wills and cunning ensue.

An overlooked great film!

269 nikis-knight  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:41:40am

re: #130 Myrddin Emrys

ummm... he's being deposed for 29,000 counts of accessory to murder... hard to imagine a living victim of murder

Then I suppose you have no conception of human emotion.

270 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:42:05am

re: #215 Occasional Reader

Is Myrddin Emrys about to post a weepy "leave John Demjanjuk alone!" video on YouTube?

Wait. He'll post a screed about how we hate him so much over at one of the fascist sympathizer sites.

271 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:42:05am

re: #262 brookly red

Dude, you were in Manhattan...

That night I was. It's not my favorite place, but you can get a good steak.

272 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:42:15am

re: #244 Nevergiveup

He should have been held responsible. But he was smart and the cold war was upon us.


I completely understand why America did what it did. From a real politik point of view it makes some twisted sort of Machievellian sense. But evil of his magnitude is impossible to even grasp in it's scope, let alone comprehend the full import or meaning of.

I think we made the wrong end of a devil's bargain.

273 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:42:27am

re: #258 Lee Coller

He/She/It has managed to sweep all ten slots.

re: #264 subsailor68

A quick look at Bottom Comments shows about 143 negatives on this one thread alone - and as Lee said, a sweep of all ten. Is that close to a record?

I believe it is a record.

274 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:01am

re: #273 MandyManners

I believe it is a record.

Annefrance has competition!

275 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:18am

re: #269 nikis-knight

Then I suppose you have no conception of human emotion.

Stupid motherfucker got a taste of it today.

276 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:24am

re: #214 nyc redneck

it is a shame he is now a weak 88 yr. old man whose son insists he is too sick
to travel but getting old does not diminish his culpability for the acts he is charged with.
it doesn't work that way regarding such horrendous crimes.
this man needs to answer the charges against him.
bringing him to justice will bring closure to the family and friends of these 29,000 people who were killed.

that hideous time in history needs to be exposed.
and those who had a hand in it must be held accountable.

Agree - and even if they're already dead, the names of these criminals must be made public, and not swept under the carpet because its been such a long time ...

277 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:31am

re: #261 EmmmieG

That just went into my favourites. Thank you for that eloquent and heartfelt comment.

278 pink freud  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:36am

re: #274 Alouette

Annefrance has competition!

Not in the IQ department.

279 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:40am

re: #267 albusteve

home turf for the neonLibs

neonLibs? I am gonna guess that was intentional LOL!

280 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:46am

re: #274 Alouette

Annefrance has competition!

Not for the bottom 10. I don't know of anyone who's been in all 10.

281 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:50am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

I think I'll use this comment as a reason to leave. While a few of you actually honestly engaged me, the unreasoned vitriol from the majority is disgusting. This comment I am quoting is lower even than MandyManner's epithet. Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

You are not more offended than we are by your idiocy. Mandy's epithet was way too good for you.

282 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:43:50am

re: #271 Nevergiveup

That night I was. It's not my favorite place, but you can get a good steak.

I love Manhattan...big ass buildings

283 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:44:04am

re: #273 MandyManners

I believe it is a record.

We try harder!

284 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:44:13am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

Not that any of you will care, but I am deeply offended.

I care very much that you are deeply offended, and have wanted that since your third or fourth comment in this thread.

285 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:44:15am

re: #268 zombie

It was just on the other day. Your right a very good film. There is another film about a German who takes his new wife back to Nazi Germany for a "visit" and then wants to stay. It is also old but very creepy to watch. Anyone know what film I am talking about?

286 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #172 Myrddin Emrys

This is a completely inappropriate comparison. Al Qaeda (last I checked) is actively in the terrorism business. The pursuit of bin Laden is a matter of national security, not criminal justics.

Bullshit. We can put homing devices in every citizen of the US and track their meanderings if it is just about national security. A HORRENDOUS crime was committed. A crime against humanity in general and the US in particular.

287 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:44:27am

I'm glad I took a walk around the house lest I get really mad.

288 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:44:55am

OT: Who wants a case of your finest poison?

Take me to Y2K and it is yours.

289 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:44:59am

re: #271 Nevergiveup

That night I was. It's not my favorite place, but you can get a good steak.

Old Homestead?

290 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:07am

Anne France has the record for the most dinged down comment: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

291 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:08am

"Gee, I defended a Nazi who murdered thousand upon thousands of Jews, and all of a sudden out of left field people are comparing me to Hitler. Where did THAT come from? You deeply, deeply hurt my feelings."

292 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:10am

re: #287 MandyManners

Yes, we wouldn't want you to post something un-ladylike.

293 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:11am

re: #268 zombie

Great flick.

294 kafir lover  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:14am

re: #196 Myrddin Emrys

Another day perhaps -

295 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:31am

re: #268 zombie

One of the all time best Hollywood actors, Edward G. Robinson was born Emanuel Goldenberg in Bucharest, Romania.

296 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:34am

re: #291 SIlhouette

LOL

297 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:45:45am

re: #287 MandyManners

I'm glad I took a walk around the house lest I get really mad.

a well worn path I'd guess

298 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:46:12am

re: #214 nyc redneck

it is a shame he is now a weak 88 yr. old man whose son insists he is too sick
to travel but getting old does not diminish his culpability for the acts he is charged with.
it doesn't work that way regarding such horrendous crimes.
this man needs to answer the charges against him.
bringing him to justice will bring closure to the family and friends of these 29,000 people who were killed.

that hideous time in history needs to be exposed.
and those who had a hand in it must be held accountable.

There are at least 29,000 people who never got even the chance to live to 88. Nothing mitigates this man being judged for his crimes.

299 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:46:33am

Congressman 'Deeply Disappointed' By FBI's Lack of Answers on CAIR's Questionable Ties

A leading U.S. congressman investigating the nation's largest Islamic advocacy group says he is "deeply disappointed" with an embarrassing reply he received from a letter he sent to the FBI.

Rep. Frank Wolf, R-Va., sent the letter on Feb. 2 after FOXNews.com report that the bureau had severed ties with the Council on American-Islamic Relations amid mounting evidence that the group was linked to a support network for Hamas.

The FBI severed its ties with all local chapters of CAIR after a 15-year investigation culminated with the conviction in December of Hamas fund-raisers. CAIR was listed as an unindicted co-conspirator in the case.

Wolf reached out to the FBI's assistant director for counterterrorism to find out whether the bureau still had any contact with the group it called a front for Islamic radicals, and whether CAIR was receiving funds from foreign sources.

After waiting more than a month, Wolf said, the only response he got was a four-paragraph letter from the FBI's head of public relations.

The response left the 15-term congressman seething -- and now he's pushing back.

300 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:46:38am

Just had someone post over at my blog that he thought that Demjanjuk was being railroaded. Of course, a little flawed logic and bad math helps this guy make the case. Had to set him straight.

301 nyc redneck  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:46:41am

re: #166 reine.de.tout

but there is the teeny matter of 29,000 counts of accessory to murder - 29,000!

re: #237 nyc redneck

29,000 people.
twenty nine thousand people.

reine, i swear i didn't see your post before i said this.

302 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:47:14am

re: #225 CIA Reject

Thank you.

Most people don't realize that what happened in WWII was not an isolated event that started in 1939 and ended in 1945 - that was only one battle in a war that started long, long ago and continues to this very day.

Exactly!

If these crimes are not prosecuted, if we let 'history' sweep this under the carpet, if we let Holocaust deniers have the last word - then one thing is certain: there will be another Holocaust.
Because - its no longer regarded as a crime but as just an 'accident of history'.

Not as long as I draw breath!

303 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:47:19am

re: #289 brookly red

Old Homestead?

I said you can, actually that night I thought my steak was not so great. But I washed it down with scotch and beer before the show. I think a place called "Teds" near Radio City

304 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:47:19am

Just a suggestion.

Myrddin Emrys is obviously a troll of the most offensive sort - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate, or he is a complete fucking idiot with no sense of proper human decency - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate.

The fact that he is still here defending his "rights" seems to indicate a great dal of satisfaction on his part from engaging us.

How about we just ignore him?

Seriously?

Forget the little fuck.

305 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:47:19am
306 zombie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:48:17am

re: #261 EmmmieG

Part of the civilized rule of law is that murder has no statute of limitations. There is a very good reason for this; murder is the one crime for which you can never make restitution.*

*Personal opinion, I'm not a lawyer

One of the things that disgusts me about Sharia (Islamic law) is that one can make restitution for murder, in certain cases. While some types of murder under sharia merit the death penalty, others -- you can simply "bribe" the family with enough money (or valuables) and the crime is washed away. In some Islamic cultures, the victim's family can decide on the "punishment" of the convicted murderer, and often they choose a big cash settlement.

307 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:48:40am

re: #304 LudwigVanQuixote

Just a suggestion.

Myrddin Emrys is obviously a troll of the most offensive sort - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate, or he is a complete fucking idiot with no sense of proper human decency - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate.

The fact that he is still here defending his "rights" seems to indicate a great dal of satisfaction on his part from engaging us.

How about we just ignore him?

Seriously?

Forget the little fuck.

Gamey buttocks should never be ignored. Slow-cooked in a red-wine and garlic marinade, there's nothing like it!

308 Render  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:04am

Somebody call for a chainsaw?

I'M
OFFENDED,
R

309 pink freud  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:06am

re: #301 nyc redneck

but there is the teeny matter of 29,000 counts of accessory to murder - 29,000!

re: #237 nyc redneck

reine, i swear i didn't see your post before i said this.

Has anyone ever seen reine and nyc redneck in the same place at the same time?

/cue scary music

310 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:18am

re: #300 lawhawk

Just had someone post over at my blog that he thought that Demjanjuk was being railroaded. Of course, a little flawed logic and bad math helps this guy make the case. Had to set him straight.

What a piece of work, in addition to the math issues, he's equating Nazi concentration camps to US prison camps in Iraq.

311 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:25am

re: #295 Kenneth

One of the all time best Hollywood actors, Edward G. Robinson was born Emanuel Goldenberg in Bucharest, Romania.

His brother lived across the street from my grandfather. Occasionally Edward G. would come to visit and we would see his limousine parked outside the house. My friends and I would wait around to see him come out and get inside. He was a very nice many who always had time to talk to us kids.

Not like some of the Hollywood a-holes today ...

312 doppelganglander  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:27am

re: #290 Lee Coller

Anne France has the record for the most dinged down comment: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

That's about a hundred more downdings than the last time I checked. She's the gift that keeps on giving.

313 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:35am

You know, in a strange way, I'm glad Myrddin came by and posted his comment. Not because he had a valid point, but because of the responses so many folks made.

The overall thrust of the replies seems to have been made in relation to concepts like justice, morality, doing the right thing regardless of time passed, and the recognition that crimes like these are - and must ever be - unspeakable.

I'm proud to be a part of this community.

314 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #232 MandyManners

And I deeply resent that this troll uses the name of one of the most famous Welshmen in legend as his nic!

315 newsjunkie_ky  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:42am

re: #285 Nevergiveup

It was just on the other day. Your right a very good film. There is another film about a German who takes his new wife back to Nazi Germany for a "visit" and then wants to stay. It is also old but very creepy to watch. Anyone know what film I am talking about?


No, but the 'music box' is another good film, even if the star is jessica lange.

316 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:48am

OT:
Been reading about the Dems and Obama's malfeasance, incompetence, etc.

It occurs to me that in a few short years, either all the Democrats/Socialists in this nation are going to end up in prison, or run out of the country en masse, all the MoveOn-ers, the Soros groups, the ACORN-ers, the politicians, the de-Educators, all of 'em....either they are....or all of us are.

Either they are going to continue getting away with it all until eventually they acheive political and social dominance, silencing us, imprisoning us, stealing from us, and even eventually killing us, or we are going to stop them before they do*.

I cannot picture a third possible outcome here. And my latter scenario seems quite increasingly unlikely.

*Of course, using nonviolent methods and by changing their minds through reason and logic-based discourse and the repeated displays of relevent evidence.

317 MJ  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:49:55am

re: #304 LudwigVanQuixote

Just a suggestion.

Myrddin Emrys is obviously a troll of the most offensive sort - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate, or he is a complete fucking idiot with no sense of proper human decency - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate.

The fact that he is still here defending his "rights" seems to indicate a great dal of satisfaction on his part from engaging us.

How about we just ignore him?

Seriously?

Forget the little fuck.

We used to just write GAZE but sometimes you just have to answer.

318 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:50:14am

I wonder that the record for "dings" is on a complete thread? Both negative and positive. On heated threads both the up dings and the down dings are flying.

319 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:50:25am

re: #265 yma o hyd

I was also just reading that with respect to civil cases and crimes against humanity, from Wiki here, "Certain countries have voted legislation stating that crimes against humanity are not subject to prescription." Thus, it's for all time (no time limitations.)

320 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:50:28am

re: #308 Render

Somebody call for a chainsaw?

I'M
OFFENDED,
R

Chainsaws are hurtful to trees!

I am offended on behalf of the trees.

And the Ents! Don't forget the Ents.

321 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:50:55am

Developing: Fuel Leak Leads NASA to Scrub Tonight's Shuttle Launch

322 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:50:55am

re: #303 Nevergiveup

No, no, no, no... check out the Old Homestead. out of the way, but you will approve.

323 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:50:55am

re: #231 albusteve

why?

Stinky often removes comments from lizards that are reenacting the "You won't have Richard Nixon to kick around any more" press conference.

324 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:51:06am

re: #314 yma o hyd

And I deeply resent that this troll uses the name of one of the most famous Welshmen

yma, yma... you're really setting yourself up here...!

325 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:51:12am

re: #292 WriterMom

Yes, we wouldn't want you to post something un-ladylike.

*snort*

326 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:51:20am

re: #311 CIA Reject

His brother lived across the street from my grandfather. Occasionally Edward G. would come to visit and we would see his limousine parked outside the house. My friends and I would wait around to see him come out and get inside. He was a very nice many who always had time to talk to us kids.

Not like (some) MOST of the Hollywood a-holes today ...

Fixed that for ya

327 pink freud  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:51:27am

re: #320 Occasional Reader

Chainsaws are hurtful to trees!

I am offended on behalf of the trees.

And the Ents! Don't forget the Ents.

Red ents are the worst!

328 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:52:00am

re: #312 doppelganglander

That's about a hundred more downdings than the last time I checked. She's the gift that keeps on giving.

That's all within a week. Charles has it such that one cannot ding a comment after a week.

329 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:52:07am

re: #315 newsjunkie_ky

No, but the 'music box' is another good film, even if the star is jessica lange.

Is she a moonbat?

330 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:52:17am

re: #320 Occasional Reader

Chainsaws are hurtful to trees!

I am offended on behalf of the trees.

And the Ents! Don't forget the Ents.


I sense unrest in the forest. The maples want more sunlight and the elms ignore their pleas.

Youtube Video
331 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:52:17am

re: #297 albusteve

a well worn path I'd guess

I try to vary the path so as to not wear out the carpet.

332 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:52:43am

re: #306 zombie

One of the things that disgusts me about Sharia (Islamic law) is that one can make restitution for murder, in certain cases. While some types of murder under sharia merit the death penalty, others -- you can simply "bribe" the family with enough money (or valuables) and the crime is washed away. In some Islamic cultures, the victim's family can decide on the "punishment" of the convicted murderer, and often they choose a big cash settlement.

1) You raped and killed our daughter but hey we're all getting to go to Disneyland!

2) Our son killed himself and bunch of school kids so we are all going to Paradise!

333 Wilderstad  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:52:56am

People like Myrddin Emrys, really make me wonder if the appropriate neural wiring was never installed, or just failed to develop.

334 avanti  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:01am

re: #1 lawhawk

He was found guilty by Israeli courts at one time and sentenced to death, but that sentence was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court because witnesses misidentified him as Ivan the Terrible from the Treblinka death camp. He's now facing deportation from the US yet again to Germany to face those charges. Here's hoping the Germans have the evidence to convict the bastard.

Here's his history

Link

335 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:07am

re: #322 brookly red

No, no, no, no... check out the Old Homestead. out of the way, but you will approve.

I might have eaten there. I have at alot of the good steak joints in NYC. But we were pressed for time that night.

336 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:11am
337 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:11am

re: #323 CyanSnowHawk

Stinky often removes comments from lizards that are reenacting the "You won't have Richard Nixon to kick around any more" press conference.

he only said he was leaving...I say it's open to interpretation

338 robdouth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:23am

I have a purely philosophical question. Given this guy was a guard, it seems likely that he would have actively engaged in the killing of interned Jews in the camp. At what point to culpability (both legal and moral although they could be at different points) enter in for someone "employed" in one of these camps? I'm prone to argue that even the lowliest of janitor's or asst. janitor's of a death camp, are legally responsible as accessories, but that is also because they are seeing the evil and going along to get along. But I have a philosophical dilemma because I could see an argument that would put almost all of the average German citizens during WW2 as culpable, especially if they had knowledge and yet did nothing, which is implicitly condoning the behavior as well. Any thoughts? I'm willing to be persuaded either way, becuase it's always been something that gnawed at me even as a little boy learning about the horrors.

339 newsjunkie_ky  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:36am

re: #329 Nevergiveup

Is she a moonbat?

Raving.

340 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:48am

re: #304 LudwigVanQuixote

Just a suggestion.

Myrddin Emrys is obviously a troll of the most offensive sort - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate, or he is a complete fucking idiot with no sense of proper human decency - at which point yelling at him will not penetrate.

The fact that he is still here defending his "rights" seems to indicate a great dal of satisfaction on his part from engaging us.

How about we just ignore him?

Seriously?

Forget the little fuck.

A marvelous pearl of wisdom.

341 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:56am

re: #247 WriterMom

Have read many, many books on the Holocaust. It must be read and taught. I can handle it.


So have I. I just hope I never come to a point where it doesn't make me ill. Ishi really is in that league.

342 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:53:59am

re: #206 Iron Fist

If you want to read on the "Religion" of the Third Reich, it is covered well in Scheirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I don't remember the number of the Chapter, but it is towards the middle of the book. It is a section called The New Order. It covers everything about the unholy Nazi "faith". It was not, even in the faintest way, a "Christian" religion.

I got to the middle of that book and for a week straight, as I read, I wept. But I would NOT put it down. I was 22 years old and about to start a family. I will always be glad I read that book.

343 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:54:16am

Fastest down in flames I have see in my short time here. Started at 9 karma today.

Burn arsehole, Burn

ma: -203

Myrddin Emrys

Registered since: Dec 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 49
No. of links posted: 0

344 Wilderstad  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:54:18am

re: #336 buzzsawmonkey

Buzz, Buzz, you really need to put a warning on things like that. I need a towel to wipe the spray from my monitor!

345 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:54:35am

re: #305 Iron Fist

Not particularly, but I'll tell you to go fuck yourself with a chainsaw just to give your little "they don't like me because I support the Nazis - wah" speech all of the time and attention that it deserves.

Go fuck yourself with a chainsaw.

Now, how does one do...oh, never mind.

346 turn  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:54:36am

re: #44 LudwigVanQuixote

Operation paperclip was an OSS/CIA project to get useful Nazis into our hands. Werner Van Braun is a great example. Paperclip itself was directed at Nazi scientists.

Other operations went for Nazi intelligence types and we founded much of the West German intelligence community out of the old Nazi spy apparatus.

In the lore of people who look into these things, "paperclipped" covers all such programs to rehabilitate "useful" nazis by America or the Allies.

Back from lunch, hey thanks for that ludwig. Like I've said many times before, I learn something new at LGF every day.

347 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:54:44am

re: #304 LudwigVanQuixote

I hear ya, and I'm all for ignoring most trolls, but by the same logic that Demjanjuk must be tried, Mryddie must be answered. Evil must be rebutted.

Because some little 17-yr-old is out there reading lgf, lurking, who doesn't know a whole lot about the Holocaust or even life, justice, vengeance, etc. Most of the rebuttals aren't for the troll.

348 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:54:54am

re: #327 pink freud

Red ents are the worst!

Army Ents Rock.
You should see Treebeard fire a Stinger.

349 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:55:08am

re: #58 subsailor68
Living in Cleveland, OH. everybody knows about John Demanjuk.
You're reaching for Area 51 straws. JD was a Ukrainian farmboy national serving in the Red Army, captured by the Nazi's during Operation Barbarossa. He was spared summary execution as a communist because of his "Aryan background". He was offered the opportunity to switch sides and was either enlisted or compulsed into 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galicia (1st Ukrainian). This much Demanjuk agrees with.

Damanjuk's claim is that he did train at Trawniki, knew of "Ivan the Terrible" (though not personally), and that he was not a very good guard and was sent off to picket patrols where he was wounded. By the time he returned to active duty, the Russians were back on the offensive and he retreated with the Germans, to avoid capture by the Reds: which would mean immediate execution if captured.

Cleveland has a very large ex-pat Russian and Ukrainian community. Mostly from the Czarist days, they sponsored him to come to Cleveland, where he became motor machinist for Ford Motor Co. He retired and lived in suburban Seven Hills, OH. Next door to Parma, (little Eastern Europe). John has always claimed mistaken identity because of Soviet fabrication against those who resisted or collaborated (an oft substantiated claim by thousands), and because he shared the same first name, Ivan (John).

Is he guilty of these new charges? Unclear.
Should he be punished for working with the bad guys? He already has had his citizenship stripped, sentenced to death in Israel and exonerated, his retirement finances ruined, his family divided, humiliated, and reviled. Short of putting a bullet in his head by his own hand, not much more that hasn't already been done.
This would help the Germans white-wash their past though.

350 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:55:12am

re: #313 subsailor68

You know, in a strange way, I'm glad Myrddin came by and posted his comment. Not because he had a valid point, but because of the responses so many folks made.

The overall thrust of the replies seems to have been made in relation to concepts like justice, morality, doing the right thing regardless of time passed, and the recognition that crimes like these are - and must ever be - unspeakable.

I'm proud to be a part of this community.

And I'm proud that you are part of this community. Thank you for serving in the "Silent Service". As an acquaintance of mine once told me: "It takes a particularly brave man to sail aboard a ship designed by the United States Navy to intentionally sink!"

351 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:55:27am

People are denying the Holocaust happened. THe same people deny that Israel has a right to exist. The same people want to see the United States defeated and humiliated. The links are there. This Purim Israel needs to act.

352 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:56:11am

re: #307 Alouette

Gamey buttocks should never be ignored. Slow-cooked in a red-wine and garlic marinade, there's nothing like it!

Yes but then he gets perverse thrill... He knows he is being an ass, and if he is sociopathic enough to not get that, he at least knows he is percieved as an ass. Now that he has been told that he sucks, ignoring him will hurt his feelings more.

353 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:56:36am

re: #290 Lee Coller

Anne France has the record for the most dinged down comment: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

but annefrance is special doncha know.
/

354 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:56:37am

re: #338 robdouth

I have a purely philosophical question. Given this guy was a guard, it seems likely that he would have actively engaged in the killing of interned Jews in the camp. At what point to culpability (both legal and moral although they could be at different points) enter in for someone "employed" in one of these camps? I'm prone to argue that even the lowliest of janitor's or asst. janitor's of a death camp, are legally responsible as accessories, but that is also because they are seeing the evil and going along to get along. But I have a philosophical dilemma because I could see an argument that would put almost all of the average German citizens during WW2 as culpable, especially if they had knowledge and yet did nothing, which is implicitly condoning the behavior as well. Any thoughts? I'm willing to be persuaded either way, becuase it's always been something that gnawed at me even as a little boy learning about the horrors.

Ordinary German civilians and even ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers were not employed at the death camps, which were staffed entirely by highly-trained, specialized Jew killers.

355 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:56:37am

re: #321 lawhawk

Developing: Fuel Leak Leads NASA to Scrub Tonight's Shuttle Launch

When is the next window? Because I'm down there next week.

356 redheadredstate  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:57:05am

Hey Myrddin Emrys bet you voted for the Obamination with logic such as you're displaying.

357 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:57:10am

re: #341 LudwigVanQuixote

Some things hit me harder than others. For example, some stories out of Romania and Hungary made me almost pass out. Then, even though I had read a lot about the White Rose society, I went to see a movie adaptation of the story. The movie horrified me more than the book that I read and I couldn't sleep for many nights. That was also because I kept making the link to Iran in my head, how little is being done now against evil and how brave those young students were in Germany-may their memories be a blessing.

358 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:57:14am

re: #346 turn

Back from lunch, hey thanks for that ludwig. Like I've said many times before, I learn something new at LGF every day.

The most irritating part of "Operation Paperclip" was "Clippy", the overly-helpful animated icon that would pop up on OSS/CIA computer screens. "It looks like you're trying to import a Nazi rocket scientist! Would you like some help with that?"

359 doppelganglander  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:57:20am

re: #328 Honorary Yooper

That's all within a week. Charles has it such that one cannot ding a comment after a week.

The I guess it's been a really long time since I checked :)

360 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:57:22am

re: #338 robdouth

I have a purely philosophical question. Given this guy was a guard, it seems likely that he would have actively engaged in the killing of interned Jews in the camp. At what point to culpability (both legal and moral although they could be at different points) enter in for someone "employed" in one of these camps? I'm prone to argue that even the lowliest of janitor's or asst. janitor's of a death camp, are legally responsible as accessories, but that is also because they are seeing the evil and going along to get along. But I have a philosophical dilemma because I could see an argument that would put almost all of the average German citizens during WW2 as culpable, especially if they had knowledge and yet did nothing, which is implicitly condoning the behavior as well. Any thoughts? I'm willing to be persuaded either way, becuase it's always been something that gnawed at me even as a little boy learning about the horrors.

Actually, there were many guards who did NOT actively participate in murder. There were some who actually refused to and did NOT suffer any negative consequences from their superiors. So yes just being a guard at one of the camps does confer some culpability, but there were other Guards like this guy who seemed to take great pleasure in torturing and killing the innocents.

361 VioletTiger  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:57:36am

re: #304 LudwigVanQuixote
I know we shouldn't feed the trolls, but sometimes they deserve a good bashing.

Do these fools just wait silently for the right thread to rear their ugly heads?

362 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:57:47am

re: #324 Occasional Reader

yma, yma... you're really setting yourself up here...!

Aww - I'm sure Tom Jones will understand me!

:-))

363 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:08am

re: #358 Occasional Reader

LOL. Funny.

364 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:13am

re: #290 Lee Coller

Anne France has the record for the most dinged down comment: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Could this be AnneFrance?

365 debutaunt  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:20am

re: #15 CIA Reject

I don't see a guard at Sobibor being involved in anything of interest to paperclip, unless he was something more than a guard- CW specialist maybe?

The paperclip is in reference to a movie called Paper Clips.
We watched The Boy in the Striped Pajamas on dvd last night. It was excellent.

366 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:23am

re: #350 CIA Reject

And I'm proud that you are part of this community. Thank you for serving in the "Silent Service". As an acquaintance of mine once told me: "It takes a particularly brave man to sail aboard a ship designed by the United States Navy to intentionally sink!"

Thanks so much for the kind words!

LOL! Hell, we weren't brave...we just got real seasick if we didn't sink her to a comfortable depth.

367 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:24am

re: #334 avanti

Here's his history

Link

Thanks.

I found this interesting tidbit:

Their ruling was based partly on the written statements of former guards at Treblinka that Ivan the Terrible's true surname was Marchenko, not Demjanjuk. However, Demjanjuk had listed his mother's maiden name as "Marchenko" in his application for U.S. visa, and he says he did this because he forgot her real name and just wrote a common Ukrainian name.

Can someone tell me how the heck you forget your mother's maiden name? I think he lied then, and as such, is lying now.

368 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:28am

re: #361 VioletTiger

I know we shouldn't feed the trolls, but sometimes they deserve a good bashing.

Do these fools just wait silently for the right thread to rear their ugly heads?

Monster threads bring up monsters, evolution threads bring up un-evolved creatures, nirther threads bring up dingbats.

It's all very logical.

369 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:37am

I see Ambassador Chas Freeman dropped by to offer his "unique" opinions on matters of morality & law.

///

370 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:49am

re: #364 MandyManners

Could this be AnneFrance?

I was thinking the same thing.

371 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:50am

re: #314 yma o hyd

And I deeply resent that this troll uses the name of one of the most famous Welshmen in legend as his nic!

((((((yma o hyd))))))

372 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:58:54am

re: #355 SIlhouette

When is the next window? Because I'm down there next week.

It usually takes months to reschedule a launch.

373 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:59:13am
374 Bloodnok  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:59:40am

re: #372 CapeCoddah

It usually takes months to reschedule a launch.

Not since Cialis hit the market.

375 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:00:23pm

re: #374 Bloodnok

Not since Cialis hit the market.

You need it?////

376 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:00:43pm

re: #338 robdouth

I have a purely philosophical question. Given this guy was a guard, it seems likely that he would have actively engaged in the killing of interned Jews in the camp. At what point to culpability (both legal and moral although they could be at different points) enter in for someone "employed" in one of these camps? I'm prone to argue that even the lowliest of janitor's or asst. janitor's of a death camp, are legally responsible as accessories, but that is also because they are seeing the evil and going along to get along. But I have a philosophical dilemma because I could see an argument that would put almost all of the average German citizens during WW2 as culpable, especially if they had knowledge and yet did nothing, which is implicitly condoning the behavior as well. Any thoughts? I'm willing to be persuaded either way, becuase it's always been something that gnawed at me even as a little boy learning about the horrors.

"I vas juzt follozing ze orders" does not hold up in court

377 yesandno  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:00:56pm

Guess that means if we find Osama Bin Laden in 40 years or so, we should probably let him live in Ohio as well.....though he might prefer Minnesota.

No one is accountable, right?

/do I need to?

378 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:01pm

re: #364 MandyManners

Could this be AnneFrance?

Anne France was registered on Feb 3, 2008. Myrddin Emrys on Dec 31, 2006. It would be odd if she had preregistered a sockpuppet.

379 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:02pm

re: #355 SIlhouette

When is the next window? Because I'm down there next week.

If the fuel leak issue is resolved, the shuttle and its STS-119 astronaut crew could lift off as early as Thursday evening at 8:54 p.m. EST (0054 GMT) with favorable weather expected.

From here.

Generally, space.com is a good source of news.

380 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:10pm

re: #374 Bloodnok

Not since Cialis hit the market.

Har Har. Lucky for you, Blood!

381 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:15pm

re: #368 EmmmieG

Monster threads bring up monsters, evolution threads bring up un-evolved creatures, nirther threads bring up dingbats.

It's all very logical.

/Oh, good. I was afraid this Freeman thing activated some sleepers... I feel better now.

382 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:23pm

re: #338 robdouth

I have a purely philosophical question. Given this guy was a guard, it seems likely that he would have actively engaged in the killing of interned Jews in the camp. At what point to culpability (both legal and moral although they could be at different points) enter in for someone "employed" in one of these camps? I'm prone to argue that even the lowliest of janitor's or asst. janitor's of a death camp, are legally responsible as accessories, but that is also because they are seeing the evil and going along to get along. But I have a philosophical dilemma because I could see an argument that would put almost all of the average German citizens during WW2 as culpable, especially if they had knowledge and yet did nothing, which is implicitly condoning the behavior as well. Any thoughts? I'm willing to be persuaded either way, becuase it's always been something that gnawed at me even as a little boy learning about the horrors.

Was the average citizen employed in the camps?

383 Bloodnok  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:28pm

re: #375 Erik The Red

You need it?////

So I've heard.

384 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:37pm

re: #373 Iron Fist

Read Johna Goldberg: Liberal Facsism

warning! Tainted wiki link.

385 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:51pm

re: #378 Lee Coller

Anne France was registered on Feb 3, 2008. Myrddin Emrys on Dec 31, 2006. It would be odd if she had preregistered a sockpuppet.

AnneF could have been the expendable sockpuppet, used to "test the waters".

386 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:54pm

re: #377 yesandno

Guess that means if we find Osama Bin Laden in 40 years or so, we should probably let him live in Ohio as well.....though he might prefer Minnesota.

No one is accountable, right?

/do I need to?

Why bother going to all that expense and hassle? I mean, come on, that's old news.....can't we move on?

/

387 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:56pm

re: #377 yesandno

Guess that means if we find Osama Bin Laden in 40 years or so, we should probably let him live in Ohio as well.....though he might prefer Minnesota.

No one is accountable, right?

/do I need to?

it would not surprise me one bit if he were here now...

388 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:01:59pm

re: #83 Myrddin Emrys

Criminal law hasn't been about "morality" for centuries...

Dang, missed a flaming troll.

Can't let this slide....

Contrary to leftist speak, "you can't legislate moraliaty" the law is fundamentally moral.

It can be basically broken down into two broad categories.

Don't hurt someone else.
Don't take stuff that's not yours.

That's a pretty fundamental moral code.

389 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:02:08pm

re: #338 robdouth

I have a purely philosophical question. Given this guy was a guard, it seems likely that he would have actively engaged in the killing of interned Jews in the camp. At what point to culpability (both legal and moral although they could be at different points) enter in for someone "employed" in one of these camps? I'm prone to argue that even the lowliest of janitor's or asst. janitor's of a death camp, are legally responsible as accessories, but that is also because they are seeing the evil and going along to get along. But I have a philosophical dilemma because I could see an argument that would put almost all of the average German citizens during WW2 as culpable, especially if they had knowledge and yet did nothing, which is implicitly condoning the behavior as well. Any thoughts? I'm willing to be persuaded either way, becuase it's always been something that gnawed at me even as a little boy learning about the horrors.

The Germans were unsurprisingly highly organized and people were assigned to special jobs. Part of the plan was not only to make the killing efficient in the narrow sense but also to make it routine, to normalize it. Pretty german girls were recruited to do secretarial work for the SS. Brutal tasks were often assigned to non-german collaborators, like Demanjuk. Prisoners were used for many functions, such as the removal and processing of corpses. Most guards might have just stood in a watch tower or otherwise done routine duties. This man interacted brutally with prisoners.

390 bolivar  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:02:32pm

re: #355 SIlhouette

When is the next window? Because I'm down there next week.

Don't know - I will be there April 5 coming in on a cruise ship to Miami. Would sure be a sight worth getting up to see if it was then?

391 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:02:57pm

re: #112 Myrddin Emrys

I put quotation marks around the word victims because the first time I used it, I actually meant the relatives of victims (as the actual victims are dead, of course) - in my mind, the "victims" or a murder are the surviving friends and relatives of the actual victims. Sorry for the confusion on this point

OK - I meet your criteria. I am a relative of multiple victims. One who was hiding out in France - captured and sent to Auschwitz on one of the last trains. I have the train number she was shipped out on.

My "grudge" does not consume me, however anyone connected with her capture, transportation and death - I want to be dealt with no matter how long it takes or what age a person is.

Now - that is my personal EXPERIENCE! Where are you coming from?

392 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:01pm

re: #372 CapeCoddah

It usually takes months to reschedule a launch.

The websites says they'll try again tomorrow.

The STS-119 launch was scrubbed at 2:37 p.m. EDT due to a hydrogen leak in a Liquid Hydrogen vent line between the shuttle and the external tank. The launch team is currently beginning the process of draining the external fuel tank. We'll turn around for launch attempt tomorrow at 8:54 p.m. EDT.
393 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:14pm
394 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:30pm

re: #349 Kostya Lotz

Living in Cleveland, OH. everybody knows about John Demanjuk.
You're reaching for Area 51 straws. JD was a Ukrainian farmboy national serving in the Red Army, captured by the Nazi's during Operation Barbarossa. He was spared summary execution as a communist because of his "Aryan background". He was offered the opportunity to switch sides and was either enlisted or compulsed into 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galicia (1st Ukrainian). This much Demanjuk agrees with.

Damanjuk's claim is that he did train at Trawniki, knew of "Ivan the Terrible" (though not personally), and that he was not a very good guard and was sent off to picket patrols where he was wounded. By the time he returned to active duty, the Russians were back on the offensive and he retreated with the Germans, to avoid capture by the Reds: which would mean immediate execution if captured.

Cleveland has a very large ex-pat Russian and Ukrainian community. Mostly from the Czarist days, they sponsored him to come to Cleveland, where he became motor machinist for Ford Motor Co. He retired and lived in suburban Seven Hills, OH. Next door to Parma, (little Eastern Europe). John has always claimed mistaken identity because of Soviet fabrication against those who resisted or collaborated (an oft substantiated claim by thousands), and because he shared the same first name, Ivan (John).

Is he guilty of these new charges? Unclear.
Should he be punished for working with the bad guys? He already has had his citizenship stripped, sentenced to death in Israel and exonerated, his retirement finances ruined, his family divided, humiliated, and reviled. Short of putting a bullet in his head by his own hand, not much more that hasn't already been done.
This would help the Germans white-wash their past though.

Are you arguing that this is all for show, to help Germany's image?

He's not gonna' be punished unless he is convicted.

395 red satellite  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:38pm

Myrddin Emrys has more red by his name than Bank Of America and AIG do combined.

396 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:42pm

re: #392 SIlhouette

Huh, so it does. Usually takes a while.

397 stuiec  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:46pm

re: #130 Myrddin Emrys

ummm... he's being deposed for 29,000 counts of accessory to murder... hard to imagine a living victim of murder

Here we have a fascinating new moral principle: because murder victims are dead, there is no point in prosecuting and punishing murderers -- as their victims are beyond caring.

The point of prosecuting a man for 60-year-old crimes is that justice must not only be done, it must be SEEN to have been done. The precedent that a murderer just has to get away with it long enough to be able to avoid prosecution and punishment is a terrible blow to the social contract that says we trust the state to carry out justice on our behalf. (Pretty much why I thought trading Samir Kuntar for two Israeli soldiers -- who turned out to be dead -- was a terrible decision by the Olmert government.)

398 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:52pm

re: #387 albusteve

it would not surprise me one bit if he were here now...

Iran.

399 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:03:59pm

re: #347 SIlhouette

I hear ya, and I'm all for ignoring most trolls, but by the same logic that Demjanjuk must be tried, Mryddie must be answered. Evil must be rebutted.

Because some little 17-yr-old is out there reading lgf, lurking, who doesn't know a whole lot about the Holocaust or even life, justice, vengeance, etc. Most of the rebuttals aren't for the troll.

And some posts, like those by M.Emrys (spit, and double-spit for using a Welsh name!) cannot be left unanswered because that would taint and sully one's own world view.

400 opnion  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:04:04pm

re: #338 robdouth

I have a purely philosophical question. Given this guy was a guard, it seems likely that he would have actively engaged in the killing of interned Jews in the camp. At what point to culpability (both legal and moral although they could be at different points) enter in for someone "employed" in one of these camps? I'm prone to argue that even the lowliest of janitor's or asst. janitor's of a death camp, are legally responsible as accessories, but that is also because they are seeing the evil and going along to get along. But I have a philosophical dilemma because I could see an argument that would put almost all of the average German citizens during WW2 as culpable, especially if they had knowledge and yet did nothing, which is implicitly condoning the behavior as well. Any thoughts? I'm willing to be persuaded either way, becuase it's always been something that gnawed at me even as a little boy learning about the horrors.

If you read Albert Speer's "Inside The Third Reich" he actually states that he had no idea that the Labor Camps were Death Camps.
Absolutely not believable.
Along those lines , I met several ex WWII German soldiers years ago.
All claimed that they fought on the Eastern Front. Who exactly was shooting at our guys?

401 MJ  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:04:09pm

re: #378 Lee Coller

Anne France was registered on Feb 3, 2008. Myrddin Emrys on Dec 31, 2006. It would be odd if she had preregistered a sockpuppet.

"benny" looks to be someone's sock puppet.

402 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:04:18pm

re: #382 MandyManners

Was the average citizen employed in the camps?

There was some conscription for these camps. But Demjanjuk was a POW from the Russian army and VOLUNTEERED to be in the SS. He is not a saint, there is something there to these charges, I am sure of that.

403 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:04:29pm

re: #382 MandyManners

Was the average citizen employed in the camps?

What's an average citizen during this crazy period? Many of the guards and almost all of the higher ups were in the SS. But there were some "average" soldiers there and remember Demjanjuk was not German. He was a fascist and belong to a fascist Ukrainian party.

404 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:05:17pm

Ludwig:
Does the Ad Council have roots in Paperclip? I'm quite serious. I've always heard rumors that the US took not a few of the German propaganda experts, and put them to work here in the states, in areas which they had expertise.

I can't stand the Ad Council. Government-paid propaganda, IMO.

405 FrogMarch  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:05:46pm

re: #349 Kostya Lotz

interesting.

406 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:06:19pm

RawStory is usually pretty reliable.....
Report: Slain US Nazi hated Obama, had parts for 'dirty bomb'

407 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:06:23pm

re: #378 Lee Coller

Anne France was registered on Feb 3, 2008. Myrddin Emrys on Dec 31, 2006. It would be odd if she had preregistered a sockpuppet.

It never ceases to amaze me how many of these trolls and mobys have sockpuppets. And what numbers of sockpuppets they register. IIRC, some of them have had as many as 8 to 10 socks.

408 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:06:32pm

re: #402 Desert Dog

There was some conscription for these camps. But Demjanjuk was a POW from the Russian army and VOLUNTEERED to be in the SS. He is not a saint, there is something there to these charges, I am sure of that.

I'd have a hard time dealing with conscripts but, ddin't they have a choice to live and help kill others or, die fighting to stop it?

409 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:06:33pm

re: #349 Kostya Lotz

How would Demjanuk committing suicide help white-wsh Germany's past?
IIRC, its they themselves who are asking for his extradiction, and they who have indicted him?

410 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:07:01pm

re: #407 Honorary Yooper

It never ceases to amaze me how many of these trolls and mobys have sockpuppets. And what numbers of sockpuppets they register. IIRC, some of them have had as many as 8 to 10 socks.

How do they remember all their passwords?

411 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:07:26pm
412 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:07:27pm

re: #403 Nevergiveup

What's an average citizen during this crazy period? Many of the guards and almost all of the higher ups were in the SS. But there were some "average" soldiers there and remember Demjanjuk was not German. He was a fascist and belong to a fascist Ukrainian party.

I mean the average Hans or Gretl who did not work in the camps.

413 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:08:12pm

re: #408 MandyManners

I'd have a hard time dealing with conscripts but, ddin't they have a choice to live and help kill others or, die fighting to stop it?

Well it could get confusing, but the point about Demjanjuk is that he enjoyed torturing and killing people.

414 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:08:31pm

re: #411 buzzsawmonkey

They need lots of socks to conceal their dirty feats.

*GROAN*

;)

415 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:08:54pm

re: #394 MandyManners

Are you arguing that this is all for show, to help Germany's image?

He's not gonna' be punished unless he is convicted.

True. I am curious to see what the case that Germany has against him brings up. I would not mind seeing future threads about the progress of the trial.

416 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:09:33pm

re: #408 MandyManners

I'd have a hard time dealing with conscripts but, ddin't they have a choice to live and help kill others or, die fighting to stop it?

That was the choice many people had in German. Most took the path that allowed them to live. It was a horrible time in human history....the entire war. I hope we never live to see that kind of slaughter and destruction ever again.

417 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:09:40pm

re: #347 SIlhouette

I hear ya, and I'm all for ignoring most trolls, but by the same logic that Demjanjuk must be tried, Mryddie must be answered. Evil must be rebutted.

Because some little 17-yr-old is out there reading lgf, lurking, who doesn't know a whole lot about the Holocaust or even life, justice, vengeance, etc. Most of the rebuttals aren't for the troll.

Ohhh I hear you... I never said don't answer him. I am saying that once we point out how much of a shocking, coagulated clump of festering semen he is, we simply ignore him and let him to fester.

That way we get to tell the little girl lurking that refuse like this is not tolerable, and then we move on and deny the yellowing crusty stain that he is any more satisfaction.

:)

418 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:09:53pm

re: #412 MandyManners

I mean the average Hans or Gretl who did not work in the camps.

You mean did they Know what was going on? In my opinion yes to some extend. They had to notice all the Jews disappeared and they had to have heard stories. But did they all know the details that we know today, probably not.

419 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:10:00pm

re: #413 Nevergiveup

Well it could get confusing, but the point about Demjanjuk is that he enjoyed torturing and killing people.

Isn't it just an allegation now for the purposes of the charges in Germany?

420 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:10:03pm

re: #394 MandyManners

Merely stating that everytime this looks like it goes to rest, someone, somewhere still wants to poke him in the eye.

I'm not a defender of Demanjuk, I do remember he got railroaded out of Cleveland fast in the early '80's. The waters in this case are very murky and have never truly be given an intense review, except in Israel.

421 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:10:15pm

the Dow is ready to blast through 7k again....we'll all be rich!

422 wolfie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:10:31pm

re: #338 robdouth

Just my opinion: I would hold anyone who worked in a death camp responsible as an accessory. Penalties could vary widely, according to degree of involvement and individual circumstances, but I'd haul every one of them into court.
As for ordinary Germans, you cannot prove what each and every one knew or did not know about the Final Solution.

423 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:10:45pm

re: #415 Honorary Yooper

True. I am curious to see what the case that Germany has against him brings up. I would not mind seeing future threads about the progress of the trial.

I bet Charles will carry them.

424 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:11:02pm

re: #350 CIA Reject

And I'm proud that you are part of this community. Thank you for serving in the "Silent Service". As an acquaintance of mine once told me: "It takes a particularly brave man to sail aboard a ship designed by the United States Navy to intentionally sink!"

I agree. Your comment however, reminds me of a bit of trivia. Just prior to the outbreak of WWII the top admiral in the Navy (Ernest J. King) had the title Commander In Chief US Fleet - abbreviated to the acronym CinCUS (pronounced sink us). It was quickly changed after Pearl Harbor - for obvious reasons. I think it became CNO which was subdivided into CinCLANT and CinCPAC........

425 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:11:19pm

re: #374 Bloodnok

Not since Cialis hit the market.

That's good for 36 hours.

Which is about the time it would take to read the disclaimer fine print on the poster sized information sheet that comes with it.

/Or so I've heard.

426 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:11:28pm

re: #404 Taqiyyotomist

Ludwig:
Does the Ad Council have roots in Paperclip? I'm quite serious. I've always heard rumors that the US took not a few of the German propaganda experts, and put them to work here in the states, in areas which they had expertise.

I can't stand the Ad Council. Government-paid propaganda, IMO.


I doubt it... but I hear your beef...

427 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:11:32pm

re: #421 albusteve

the Dow is ready to blast through 7k again....we'll all be rich!

Quick somebody shove a rag in BO's mouth!

428 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:11:36pm

re: #416 Desert Dog

That was the choice many people had in German. Most took the path that allowed them to live. It was a horrible time in human history....the entire war. I hope we never live to see that kind of slaughter and destruction ever again.

I hope so, too. However, human nature is human nature.

429 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:11:47pm

re: #419 MandyManners

Isn't it just an allegation now for the purposes of the charges in Germany?

Yes, but all the testimony about the "Sobibor Ivan" is that he was particularly nasty. I am not trying to be Judge and Jury, just reporting what has been alleged.

430 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:11:52pm

re: #338 robdouth

there were thousands and thousands of nazi party members in Germany, at the end of WWII. The Allies had a de-nazification program...(they needed people to run the affairs of the country -- mayors, etc., so they de-nazified some. some former nazis were able to "sell" themselves to the Allies -- educated scientists, for example. And in the fight against the Communists, some former nazis were granted entry into the United States, Canada, etc. Werner von Braun was one. Other former nazis, such as those in universities, many got off -- the ones who preached nazi racial ideology -- they went back to university and resumed teaching...Here's a Wiki article..

431 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:12:03pm

re: #425 CyanSnowHawk

That's good for 36 hours.

Which is about the time it would take to read the disclaimer fine print on the poster sized information sheet that comes with it.

/Or so I've heard.

Will you call if you get an erection that last for more than 4 hours?

432 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:12:15pm

re: #393 Iron Fist

You would be surprised (or maybe not) at how real such an attitude can be. It isn't restricted to Mohammedans. All I really care to say on the subject.

Not surprised in the least friend, have you ever had the misfortune of watching what is on Daytime television shows now? The imitators of Jerry Springer and the numerous Psuedo Court shows showcase people like that.

433 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:12:18pm
434 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:12:19pm

Folks, Myrddin is just one downding away from completing a Bottom Ten historic sweep! Downding this post, and help make this moment in LGF history.

435 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:12:35pm

re: #290 Lee Coller

Anne France has the record for the most dinged down comment: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

What I find most strange is that there are at least 4 people that agreed with the screed. 4 updinged it.

436 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:12:41pm

re: #424 LGoPs

I agree. Your comment however, reminds me of a bit of trivia. Just prior to the outbreak of WWII the top admiral in the Navy (Ernest J. King) had the title Commander In Chief US Fleet - abbreviated to the acronym CinCUS (pronounced sink us). It was quickly changed after Pearl Harbor - for obvious reasons. I think it became CNO which was subdivided into CinCLANT and CinCPAC........

That's a hoot! Gotta admit I didn't know that (the "sink us' part). Thanks!

437 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:12:56pm

re: #418 Nevergiveup

You mean did they Know what was going on? In my opinion yes to some extend. They had to notice all the Jews disappeared and they had to have heard stories. But did they all know the details that we know today, probably not.

I meant did they know what was going on in the camps, and I'm not talking about those who lived near the camps. I'm thinking not.

438 VioletTiger  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:13:00pm

re: #407 Honorary Yooper

It never ceases to amaze me how many of these trolls and mobys have sockpuppets. And what numbers of sockpuppets they register. IIRC, some of them have had as many as 8 to 10 socks.

I thought Charles blocked sock puppets.

439 justabill  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:13:02pm

While I am not a lawyer, and don't know anything about the German Criminal Justice System, it seems to me that the defense lawyer could have a field day with this. Especially if he is provided to the defendant by the state. Since this guy was a guard and probably not someone giving the orders, one might assume he must have had some contact with each victim in the incitement.

One would assume he would get to defend himself against each count to establish/disprove contact. Assuming this takes one hour per victim, working 8 hours per day, 52 weeks per year, the trial would take 13.94 years.

It might be in the best interest of everyone involved to drop the charges on all but a couple dozen of the counts. Preferably those in which active participation can be established definitively.

440 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:13:04pm

re: #434 Occasional Reader

What's the record?

441 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:13:54pm

re: #431 Desert Dog

Will you call if you get an erection that last for more than 4 hours?

a semi doesn't count against the time limit...pg 4 sec12

442 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:13:54pm

re: #320 Occasional Reader

Chainsaws are hurtful to trees!

I am offended on behalf of the trees.

And the Ents! Don't forget the Ents.

Red Army Ents?

443 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:13:57pm

re: #425 CyanSnowHawk

That's good for 36 hours.

Which is about the time it would take to read the disclaimer fine print on the poster sized information sheet that comes with it.

/Or so I've heard.

Read before you take. All the blood goes to the other head/brain once taken

444 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:12pm

re: #400 opnion

Along those lines , I met several ex WWII German soldiers years ago.
All claimed that they fought on the Eastern Front. Who exactly was shooting at our guys?

Actually, their claim is statistically not at all unlikely. IIRC over 70% of German troop strength was on the Eastern Front.

445 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:17pm

re: #373 Iron Fist

that looks interesting. There have been a couple of times in my life that I've been fascinated by the Third Reich and its pagentry, its propaganda, how it took somethng thoroughly dispicable and made it into something appealing through the use of the Big Lie...

Very much the wy that the Left works today, although it doesn't look like Obama is going to actually be able to pull it off. He'll bankrupt the country, and crash the economy, but I don't think he's going to be able to get his Obama Youth started, let alone the grand Leftist State that he dreamed of.

All in all, that is, as Federal Felon Martha Stewart says, a good thing.


Yep - thats one point we need to be aware of: the Big Lie is used by the Left as well as by teh fascists, and this book by Burleigh, althoug explicit about Nazi Germany, made me realise howe asy it is for people to be swayed by this sort of semi-religious adoration.
That was years before PB0 came on the scene ...

I think one reason why the Nazis were so successful was that they used the latest technology to spread their message: Hitler used an aeroplane to get from rally to rally - Goebbels was a master of propaganda extraordinaire - he'd run rings round most of the modern ones.
And then there was the film - not just Leni Riefenstahl, but others as well.

At least we now know what to look out for!

446 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:18pm

re: #424 LGoPs

LOL!

447 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:32pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

Anybody remember the name of that book that came out about four or five years ago, about a village--Poland, I think, but it may have been the Ukraine--that turned on its Jews and killed them all while the Nazis stood by, never lifting a finger?

The image that stays with me was a quote, included in the review, which described several of the men and boys in the village playing soccer with the head of one of the neighbors they had just killed.

I don't remember the book's name but that type of behavior in eastern Europe was NOT rare. Often the Germans had willing partners.

448 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:34pm
449 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:38pm

re: #420 Kostya Lotz

Merely stating that everytime this looks like it goes to rest, someone, somewhere still wants to poke him in the eye.

I'm not a defender of Demanjuk, I do remember he got railroaded out of Cleveland fast in the early '80's. The waters in this case are very murky and have never truly be given an intense review, except in Israel.

I'm gonna' rely on what the Israelis have found for the purposes of their case against him. It'll be interesting to see what the Germans find out.

450 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:39pm
451 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #434 Occasional Reader

Folks, Myrddin is just one downding away from completing a Bottom Ten historic sweep! Downding this post, and help make this moment in LGF history.

Jay, tell him what he's won...

452 Harry Tuttle  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:01pm

Nazis! I *hate* Ohio Nazis.

453 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:14pm

re: #435 FurryOldGuyJeans

What I find most strange is that there are at least 4 people that agreed with the screed. 4 updinged it.

May have been mistake updings?

454 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:24pm

re: #429 Nevergiveup

Yes, but all the testimony about the "Sobibor Ivan" is that he was particularly nasty. I am not trying to be Judge and Jury, just reporting what has been alleged.

It must suck to be he.

455 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:29pm

re: #440 Desert Dog

What's the record?

AFAIK nobody has ever held all Bottom Ten Comments slots simultaneously!

GO, MYRDDIN!

456 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:29pm

re: #406 Killgore Trout

RawStory is usually pretty reliable.....
Report: Slain US Nazi hated Obama, had parts for 'dirty bomb'

"Claim: Depleted uranium purchased over the Internet from an American company"


Time to regulate the internet, and commerce, and time to start watching conservatives and, indeed, anyone who dislikes the One.
Like I've been saying. It's coming. Just you wait. There will be a watershed event. It will be perfect, just pat. And in the suspect's possession will be logins for conservative websites, a stack of "Limbaugh Letters" and books by Hannity, and numerous black, scary looking weapons.

The public will (according to the MSM) demand to be protected from these evils: the internet, non-believers in Obama, business (big or otherwise). Very soon now. I know the script. I've read a lot about the 1930s in Germany. We're on re-play.

457 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:43pm

re: #403 Nevergiveup

Before WWII, there were about 5 million Germans living outside of Germany & Austria in various parts of Eastern Europe. Some of these people were very eager genocidal killers, perversely trying to prove they were "True Germans".

458 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:45pm

re: #422 wolfie

Just my opinion: I would hold anyone who worked in a death camp responsible as an accessory. Penalties could vary widely, according to degree of involvement and individual circumstances, but I'd haul every one of them into court.
As for ordinary Germans, you cannot prove what each and every one knew or did not know about the Final Solution.

And for most Germans, trying to do anything would have resulted in a quick trip to the Gestapo, with no effect in helping Jews. This is not the case for those who actually worked in the camps, though. They could have done something, if just to not be any more cruel than they had to.
I think the world has done a reasonably good job in deciding who was a war criminal, and who was simply a soldier, sailor, or just ordinary citizen.
Not a perfect job, but not so bad, considering.

Thus, I reserve my ire for those who actually worked in the camps, and ancillary operations, such as transporting Jews, and not the rest of the Germans.

459 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:15:59pm
460 wolfie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:07pm

re: #360 Nevergiveup

Yes indeed. Every case would have to be judged on its own merits.
I would say that anyone who worked at a camp should be charged as an accessory to murder, but judges should be given leeway in sentencing. For some people a large fine garnisheed from wages over a few decades might be a merciful option; others oughta swing from the rafters.

461 Bloodnok  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:21pm

re: #431 Desert Dog

Will you call if you get an erection that last for more than 4 hours?

Does he have your number?

/sorry!

462 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:22pm

re: #455 Occasional Reader

AFAIK nobody has ever held all Bottom Ten Comments slots simultaneously!

GO, MYRDDIN!

Not even Avanti?

463 Rexatosis  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:37pm

I do not know whether Demjanjuk is guilty or innocent, but the fact he is not "Ivan the Terrible" according to the Israeli courts makes this prosecution rather suspect (Under common law the prosecution does not usually get "two bites at the apple"). In Eastern Europe non-German and non-Russian populations were automatically suspect of being the enemy when a given territory shifted from the control of the Soviets to the Germans and then back. Many collaborated with first the Germans (viewed as liberators by the Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, and Poles under Stalin's thumb at the beginning of Operation Barbarossa--a view many were quickly disabused of) to prove their anti-communist standing. The Soviets did not bother much with sorting out who was a Nazi or not when they marched their way towards Berlin after the turning point of the War at Stalingrad (the turning point of the war in Europe, not D-Day). Any population still alive was considered a collaborator and thus a Nazi and suffered the consequences. Anyone who could get out of the way of the Soviet juggernaut did whatever they could to make their way west (there were even cases of the German Regular Army fighting their way through Nazi SS troops in order to get civilians and themselves to the Americans and British in order to surrender.). The horrors of the War in Eastern Europe are not even closely understood in the West. Anthony Beevor's "The Fall of Berlin" and "Stalingrad" come as close as any histories can of conveying the brutal conditions of the war there. The civilians of Eastern Europe did whatever they had to to survive the unholy hell on Earth released by death struggle between the Hitler's Third Reich and Stalin's Soviet Union. A brief point that should at least be considered before the casting of moral absolutes.

464 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:44pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

Anybody remember the name of that book that came out about four or five years ago, about a village--Poland, I think, but it may have been the Ukraine--that turned on its Jews and killed them all while the Nazis stood by, never lifting a finger?

The image that stays with me was a quote, included in the review, which described several of the men and boys in the village playing soccer with the head of one of the neighbors they had just killed.

Didn't the Afghans play polo with the heads of Soviet soldiers?

465 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:49pm

Years ago I discovered that every German who was a civilian during the war claims that their family was keeping a Jew alive in the basement. Apparently Germany had to invade Eastern Europe because there was a critical shortage of Jews that people needed to keep in their basements. It was a humanitarian trade mission.

466 Eowyn2  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:51pm

re: #377 yesandno

Guess that means if we find Osama Bin Laden in 40 years or so, we should probably let him live in Ohio as well.....though he might prefer Minnesota.

No one is accountable, right?

/do I need to?

I tried to use that argument earlier in the thread. I was told it is not the same as OBL is a National Security threat and it does not relate to justice etc.

467 FrogMarch  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:53pm

re: #406 Killgore Trout

RawStory is usually pretty reliable.....
Report: Slain US Nazi hated Obama, had parts for 'dirty bomb'

From the link:

"Conservatives apparently didn't want to draw attention to a radioactive, wealthy version of Timothy McVeigh coming from their own sphere, although nearly every day during Bush's reign saw "dirty bombs" hyped as the ultimate threat," summarized Wikileaks.

"The left didn't want to repeat another 'dirty bomb' story, the likes of which Republicans had used to drive hundreds of billions of dollars into Republican dominated military and security contractors."

booga booga.

468 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:16:59pm

re: #437 MandyManners

I meant did they know what was going on in the camps, and I'm not talking about those who lived near the camps. I'm thinking not.

The average german probably did not know the details of what went on in the camps. But they knew the Jews had been "relocated" "transported " East, and I think many knew they were NOT coming back!

469 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:17:08pm

re: #455 Occasional Reader

AFAIK nobody has ever held all Bottom Ten Comments slots simultaneously!

GO, MYRDDIN!

Nodrog would have held all ten for weeks at a time........

;-P

470 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:17:31pm

re: #453 Nevergiveup

May have been mistake updings?

Possible. The post was about Palin, and at the time there were a number of detractors schlepping around.

471 Russkilitlover  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:17:32pm

re: #349 Kostya Lotz

Wow. The plot thickens. If true, then, what a tragedy.

472 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:17:49pm

Just out of idle curiosity, what auto plant did the nazi work at?

473 opnion  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:17:52pm

re: #444 Occasional Reader

Actually, their claim is statistically not at all unlikely. IIRC over 70% of German troop strength was on the Eastern Front.

Um maybe, it just seemed to me that it was odd that all three were on the Eastern Front.
I may be wrong, but I don't think that the German Army was 70% concentrated on the Eastern Front for the entire conflict.
An awful lot of fighting took p;lace in the West.

474 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:17:52pm

re: #409 yma o hyd

Demanjuk attempted suicide in 1990. He was despondent over the harassment of his family and thought his checking out would give them rest. It only encouraged the local militant leftists.

I think elements within German society eagerly want to be rid of their "yoke" of war guilt. They want what the Japanese have. And since there is an abundance of former GDR lawyers putin' about, maybe they can arrange a distraction or two.

475 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:18:01pm

re: #464 MandyManners

Didn't the Afghans play polo with the heads of Soviet soldiers?

urban myth...Afghanis cannot be that barbaric

476 Dustyvet  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:18:05pm

re: #427 CIA Reject

Quick somebody shove a rag in BO's mouth!

No, no, no, a plate of waffles...!

/S

477 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:18:22pm

re: #444 Occasional Reader

Actually, their claim is statistically not at all unlikely. IIRC over 70% of German troop strength was on the Eastern Front.

pardon me but what does IIRC stand for anyway?

478 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:01pm

re: #468 Nevergiveup

The average german probably did not know the details of what went on in the camps. But they knew the Jews had been "relocated" "transported " East, and I think many knew they were NOT coming back!

There was a lot of disbelief about the knowledge of what was going on, not limited the Germans.

479 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:07pm

re: #477 brookly red

pardon me but what does IIRC stand for anyway?

If I Recall (or Remember) Correctly.

480 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:07pm

re: #418 Nevergiveup

They were told lies - the Jews emigrated or have been moved to safe camps. They also heard the truth, through official news and rumors.Some chose to believe the lies. Some were fearful and kept their heads down. Many more new the truth and were pleased.

481 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:09pm
482 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:23pm

re: #477 brookly red

pardon me but what does IIRC stand for anyway?

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

483 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:25pm

re: #438 VioletTiger

I thought Charles blocked sock puppets.

He gets most of them now, but there was a time not too long ago when socks were registered all over the place. Some of them seem to be still hidden, rarely used sleeper socks. The commentor who has 3 comments since 2006 or some such thing, and suddenly becomes a major presence in the threads. Of course, if a sock is registered from a different IP address, it's harder tp trace than someone who registers on from the same IP address.

484 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:26pm

re: #410 Nevergiveup

How do they remember all their passwords?

Who knows? Write 'em down on a piece of paper, put 'em in a .txt file. Or maybe all the accounts used the same password.

485 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:27pm

re: #477 brookly red

pardon me but what does IIRC stand for anyway?

If I Recall Correctly.

486 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:31pm
487 Cognito  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:35pm

re: #349 Kostya Lotz

Interesting.

488 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:41pm

re: #477 brookly red

If I Recall Correctly,

489 CIA Reject  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:47pm

re: #476 Dustyvet

No, no, no, a plate of waffles...!

/S

ANYTHING TO KEEP HIM FROM TALKING! Because every time he does my 401k gets cut in half!

490 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:48pm

re: #457 Kenneth

Before WWII, there were about 5 million Germans living outside of Germany & Austria in various parts of Eastern Europe. Some of these people were very eager genocidal killers, perversely trying to prove they were "True Germans".

More like 16-20 Million I believe but that might include Silesia and Prussia that were separated after WW-II. About 16 million fled West in 1945-46.

491 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:50pm

re: #434 Occasional Reader

Folks, Myrddin is just one downding away from completing a Bottom Ten historic sweep! Downding this post, and help make this moment in LGF history.

UPDATE: My mistake... two more downdings on this post, and it should be a sweep.

492 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:19:51pm

re: #462 Erik The Red

Not even Avanti?

Compared to this asshole, Avanti's a peach.

SEE, AVANTI, I *CAN* SAY SOMETHING NICE ABOUT YOU.

493 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:20:05pm

re: #411 buzzsawmonkey

They need lots of socks to conceal their dirty feats.

Too funny.

494 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:20:14pm

re: #464 MandyManners

Didn't the Afghans play polo with the heads of Soviet soldiers?

Afghans had a sport of playing polo with the heads of enemies probably for centuries, IIRC.

495 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:20:25pm

re: #444 Occasional Reader

Actually, their claim is statistically not at all unlikely. IIRC over 70% of German troop strength was on the Eastern Front.

The father of one of my childhood friends was in the German Army. He said he fought the Americans and the British at the end of the war, but he was in Russia in 1943 as well. He was 17 when he was "encouraged" to enlist. He was basically told to enlist. He told me he was luck to get switched to the Western front because most of the guys he was with in the Eastern Front disappeared after the war.

496 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:20:58pm

re: #475 albusteve

urban myth...Afghanis cannot be that barbaric

you forgot the sarc tag, right?

497 Russkilitlover  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:20:59pm

re: #403 Nevergiveup

What's an average citizen during this crazy period? Many of the guards and almost all of the higher ups were in the SS. But there were some "average" soldiers there and remember Demjanjuk was not German. He was a fascist and belong to a fascist Ukrainian party.

Of course "volunteering" meant many different things to both the Nazis and the Soviets. Could have been a Hobson's choice.

Interesting, to say the least. I will follow this story.

498 turn  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:01pm

Oh man, I was upthread reading you guys ripping that troll a new a-hole. It left offended, you guys did a great job! Ha

499 SIlhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:05pm

re: #455 Occasional Reader

AFAIK nobody has ever held all Bottom Ten Comments slots simultaneously!

GO, MYRDDIN!

And this is not a scam and perfectly legal, because I got it in an official email not an hour ago:

Bill Gates in conjunction with Disneyworld has released a new Beta Ding Tracker, and if all bottom 10 posts belong to one person at the same time as all top 10 posts belong to another single person, Bill will send each person placing a ding a check for $1000.

I nominate me.

500 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:10pm

re: #468 Nevergiveup

The average german probably did not know the details of what went on in the camps. But they knew the Jews had been "relocated" "transported " East, and I think many knew they were NOT coming back!

The whole thing sickens me.

501 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:10pm

re: #479 subsailor68

Thank you.

502 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:21pm

re: #472 SIlhouette

Just out of idle curiosity, what auto plant did the nazi work at?

Some Ford plant. Henry would be proud, the old Jew-hater.

503 Dustyvet  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:32pm

re: #489 CIA Reject

ANYTHING TO KEEP HIM FROM TALKING! Because every time he does my 401k gets cut in half!

Well, with my idea he not only gets the waffles, he also gets the whole plate!


/S

504 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:34pm

re: #475 albusteve

urban myth...Afghanis cannot be that barbaric

HA!

505 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:56pm

re: #463 Rexatosis

That is not entirely true. He was judged by the Israeli court not to be the Ivan The terrible from Auschwitz, but there was also an Ivan the Terrible from Sobibor, and that is the allegation now. And people always have choices and some people may have gone along to live but others went along with excessive glee and effort.

506 abaleh  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:21:58pm

re: #447 Nevergiveup

I don't remember the book's name but that type of behavior in eastern Europe was NOT rare. Often the Germans had willing partners.

Even after the war there were cases of massacres of Jews by Poles, most famously the Kielce pogrom.

507 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:22:02pm

re: #498 turn

Oh man, I was upthread reading you guys ripping that troll a new a-hole. It left offended, you guys did a great job! Ha

That was a starter portion. Not too hard.

508 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:22:17pm

It could never happen here.

509 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:22:20pm

re: #449 MandyManners

Interesting indeed.

510 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:22:53pm

re: #473 opnion

Um maybe, it just seemed to me that it was odd that all three were on the Eastern Front.
I may be wrong, but I don't think that the German Army was 70% concentrated on the Eastern Front for the entire conflict.
An awful lot of fighting took p;lace in the West.

The death camps were all on the eastern front

511 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:23:19pm

re: #430 J.S.

there were thousands and thousands of nazi party members in Germany, at the end of WWII. The Allies had a de-nazification program...(they needed people to run the affairs of the country -- mayors, etc., so they de-nazified some. some former nazis were able to "sell" themselves to the Allies -- educated scientists, for example. And in the fight against the Communists, some former nazis were granted entry into the United States, Canada, etc. Werner von Braun was one. Other former nazis, such as those in universities, many got off -- the ones who preached nazi racial ideology -- they went back to university and resumed teaching...Here's a Wiki article..

Excellent list!

Modern history, folks!

512 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:23:29pm

re: #486 buzzsawmonkey

I don't recall, but it would not surprise me in the least.

I've heard it repeatedly. It was one of the reasons the Soviets lost their will to fight there.

513 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:23:29pm

re: #495 Desert Dog

The father of one of my childhood friends was in the German Army. He said he fought the Americans and the British at the end of the war, but he was in Russia in 1943 as well. He was 17 when he was "encouraged" to enlist. He was basically told to enlist. He told me he was luck to get switched to the Western front because most of the guys he was with in the Eastern Front disappeared after the war.

Russians weren't know for taking German prisoners.

I also had the father of a friend in the German Army. He was pressed into service at 14 or 15 in '45. He surrendered to the Americans the first chance he had. Several soldiers befriended him and sponsored his immigration to the US. He then promptly volunteered for the US Army and had a 30 year career.

514 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:23:43pm

re: #506 abaleh

Even after the war there were cases of massacres of Jews by Poles, most famously the Kielce pogrom.

The Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc had just about as much hatred for the Jews as the Nazis. Look at the French as well. The entire European continent went mad

515 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:23:53pm
516 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:01pm
517 lostlakehiker  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:18pm

re: #19 zombie

Demjanjuk is still alive? I remember them trying to prosecute him decades ago.

Not that I support any mass-murdering Nazi guard, but what "puzzles" me is the way so much energy is focused specifcially on Demjanjuk by Germany, when their entire country has for decades been home to thousands -- tens of thousands, more likely -- former guards like Demjanjuk, and they were never prosecuted. What gives?

I even once met a former concentration camp guard -- he was the father of a friend of someone I was visiting there. He spoke of it openly. Never charged with anything.

After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"

Having known some of those men when they were not yet at the old-man stage, it's quite the mixed bag. One guy was at the siege of Leningrad, then counter-besieged in that tangle of lakes, rivers, marshes and woods up there. Another was involved in the defense of East Prussia, commanding an '88 battery and by his modest account [no sarcasm here] getting much the better of it. Another was conscripted right at the end into one of those "units" that never had any cohesion, training, or much in the way of weapons. The last was in the cavalry in Yugoslavia, and that was an ugly business. He didn't have anything to be proud of but he was proud anyhow, in marked contrast to the battery commander.

German front-line combat soldiers were rarely parties to atrocities and most of those who survived came out of it chastened and decent-from-then-on types. The exceptions, such as that last fellow, were not-so-closet and unapologetic, but that type at least recognized that the moving finger had written and that their day was over.

518 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:18pm

re: #494 Kosh's Shadow

Afghans had a sport of playing polo with the heads of enemies probably for centuries, IIRC.

they have the Khyber Pass and poppies...otherwise totally forgettable people sorry to say

519 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:34pm

re: #491 Occasional Reader

UPDATE: My mistake... two more downdings on this post, and it should be a sweep.

I just did my bit. (I cannot believe I didn't ding it down across the board.)

520 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:35pm

re: #508 Taqiyyotomist

It could never happen here.

Probably but never say never. Eternal vigilance.

521 outsidephilly  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:44pm

re: #19 zombie

Demjanjuk is still alive? I remember them trying to prosecute him decades ago.

Not that I support any mass-murdering Nazi guard, but what "puzzles" me is the way so much energy is focused specifcially on Demjanjuk by Germany, when their entire country has for decades been home to thousands -- tens of thousands, more likely -- former guards like Demjanjuk, and they were never prosecuted. What gives?

I even once met a former concentration camp guard -- he was the father of a friend of someone I was visiting there. He spoke of it openly. Never charged with anything.

After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"


After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"


I, too, have had the same thought . . . . .

522 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:47pm

re: #496 Kenneth

you forgot the sarc tag, right?

no

523 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:24:57pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

Anybody remember the name of that book that came out about four or five years ago, about a village--Poland, I think, but it may have been the Ukraine--that turned on its Jews and killed them all while the Nazis stood by, never lifting a finger?

The image that stays with me was a quote, included in the review, which described several of the men and boys in the village playing soccer with the head of one of the neighbors they had just killed.

I don't remember a book - but I remember an article about this in the papers.
I think that village was in Poland, its name started with 'J'.

524 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:25:10pm

re: #516 buzzsawmonkey

re: #480 Kenneth

The property of deported Jews was often expropriated by their non-Jewish neighbors. They knew the deportees weren't coming back.

Those people who lived downwind of a camp, or within a reasonably close radius, or who delivered supplies to a camp, or who worked on one of the railroads that shipped deportees to camps, or who worked in one of the industries that used some of the materials taken from those exterminated, knew damned well what was going on.

Those who knew would have talked, maybe not openly, but talked. Word would have gotten around.

525 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:25:20pm

re: #494 Kosh's Shadow

Afghans had a sport of playing polo with the heads of enemies probably for centuries, IIRC.

I wish they'd tap into that spirit in order to get rid of the Taliban.

526 avanti  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:25:53pm

re: #492 MandyManners

Compared to this asshole, Avanti's a peach.

SEE, AVANTI, I *CAN* SAY SOMETHING NICE ABOUT YOU.

Mandy, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I'll accept that I'm a peachy asshole, as assholes go. :)

527 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:26:16pm

I have to wonder what his position was. If it really was "Camp Guard", how is that different than any other "Camp Guard"? Hell, there are people screaming about Guantanamo, are we going to be sending those "Camp Guards" to a similar fate sixty years from now?

Yes, being a Nazi Death Camp guard doesn't get you put on my Christmas card list. But I have to ask what is behind their zealousness in prosecuting a "Camp Guard" when there are probably hundreds living (and collecting pensions) in Germany today.

If there is more to the story, then say it. Charging a guy with 29,000 counts of "Accessory to Murder" isn't exactly done to drive a point home, it's more for facetime in the media. They could have quietly charged him with say five counts of "accessory to murder" and quietly had his @$$ brought back to Germany.

And before this gets modded down or I'm branded "Anti-semetic" like many others have been, I'm only asking questions. I am not trying to downplay the atrocities of Nazis...I am simply asking the benefit of prosecuting a "Camp Guard".

528 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:26:29pm

re: #473 opnion

Um maybe, it just seemed to me that it was odd that all three were on the Eastern Front.
I may be wrong, but I don't think that the German Army was 70% concentrated on the Eastern Front for the entire conflict.
An awful lot of fighting took p;lace in the West.

That was the figure I recall.... found a link that has a different one, but that is actually even more stark:

In June 1944, when the western front was opened, the number of German divisions on the Russian front totalled 181 which was 55 percent of the total. One hundred and twenty divisions (36 percent) were tied down in German occupied territories and the remaining 26 divisions (8 percent) were engaged on all other fronts. When the US and British armies landed in France and started to advance German divisions were taken from the occupied territories — not from the Eastern Front. Twelve German divisions alone were pinned down in Yugoslavia where the People’s Liberation Army of Marshall Tito was fighting the Nazi occupation.

529 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:26:52pm

re: #508 Taqiyyotomist

Haven't been to California lately, eh?

530 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:26:57pm

re: #519 MandyManners

I just did my bit. (I cannot believe I didn't ding it down across the board.)

My bit already done. :)

531 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:06pm

re: #515 Iron Fist

Avanti isn't even top prick. He's much too pedestrian for that. All he does is rhetorically fellate Obama at every oppertunity. As if everyone else on God's Green Earth that has a microphone isn't doing the same damn shame thing.

It's boring, more than anything.

Now, that there would make a fine rotating title.

532 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:12pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

Anybody remember the name of that book that came out about four or five years ago, about a village--Poland, I think, but it may have been the Ukraine--that turned on its Jews and killed them all while the Nazis stood by, never lifting a finger?

The image that stays with me was a quote, included in the review, which described several of the men and boys in the village playing soccer with the head of one of the neighbors they had just killed.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

At least 30 organised massacres of Jews in Poland during World War II were carried out by local people rather than occupying German Nazis, a new report has revealed.

.......

An entire village just up-river from my families "home town" in Poland, were marched into the forest north of town by the Nazis one morning. No one from the village came out alive.

533 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:17pm

re: #472 SIlhouette

Ford Motors, (o am I suprised?), according to Wiki article.

534 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:17pm

re: #519 MandyManners

I just did my bit. (I cannot believe I didn't ding it down across the board.)

MYRDDIN WON THE PENNANT! MYRDDIN WON THE PENNANT!

535 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:19pm

re: #463 Rexatosis

(Under common law the prosecution does not usually get "two bites at the apple").

1) German law is being applied here, not American or English Common Law

2) The 2 bites rule, was a recent judicial ruling and not either statute or customary Common Law, it also has no bearing on proceedings outside of the United States.

3) Even in America the 2 bites rule only applies to a given jurisdiction. A separate authority can start a new prosecution. The Federal government has prosecuted for Civil Rights violations after the State acquitted for the same crime.

536 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:25pm

re: #524 jcm

Those who knew would have talked, maybe not openly, but talked. Word would have gotten around.

It did. People standing by the sides of the train tracks would sometimes put their hands across their throats to either warn the victims or make fun of their impending fate.

537 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:48pm

re: #466 Eowyn2

I tried to use that argument earlier in the thread. I was told it is not the same as OBL is a National Security threat and it does not relate to justice etc.

It's not the same, but your point is still a good one.

538 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:51pm

re: #516 buzzsawmonkey

re: #480 Kenneth

The property of deported Jews was often expropriated by their non-Jewish neighbors. They knew the deportees weren't coming back.

Those people who lived downwind of a camp, or within a reasonably close radius, or who delivered supplies to a camp, or who worked on one of the railroads that shipped deportees to camps, or who worked in one of the industries that used some of the materials taken from those exterminated, knew damned well what was going on.

Or, in Soros' case, by fellow Jews.

539 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:27:57pm

re: #435 FurryOldGuyJeans

What I find most strange is that there are at least 4 people that agreed with the screed. 4 updinged it.

That was before Charles allowed you to fix mistakes. All four who updinged indicated they had made a mistake.

540 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:00pm

Hm, Myrddin's up to 244 down-dings. Guess most folks musta' disagreed with him (or her).

;-)

541 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:20pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

How ignorant of history are you?

542 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:21pm

re: #536 Nevergiveup

People who escaped the camps were not believed. Even those who made it to North America and tried to warn people were not taken seriously.

543 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:24pm
544 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:24pm

re: #490 lifeofthemind

I wrote "outside of Germany & Austria before the war". Many of those who fled in 1945/6 had moved there during the war. The Nazis exaggerated the number of Germans living in the East before the war, for propaganda purposes.

545 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:29pm

re: #526 avanti

Mandy, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I'll accept that I'm a peachy asshole, as assholes go. :)

Avanti you can be an ass. But at least you have a sense of humour.

546 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:30pm

re: #526 avanti

Mandy, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I'll accept that I'm a peachy asshole, as assholes go. :)

LOL!

547 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:46pm

re: #520 Nevergiveup

forgot my /sard tag.

(sardonic "humor", which I resort to sometimes.)

548 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:50pm

re: #534 Occasional Reader

MYRDDIN WON THE PENNANT! MYRDDIN WON THE PENNANT!

CAR B Q!

549 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:28:58pm
550 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:29:01pm

re: #538 MandyManners

Or, in Soros' case, by fellow Jews.

Good point

551 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:29:16pm

re: #539 Lee Coller

That was before Charles allowed you to fix mistakes. All four who updinged indicated they had made a mistake.

Then I stand corrected. :)

552 avanti  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:29:55pm

re: #515 Iron Fist

Avanti isn't even top prick. All he does is rhetorically fellate Obama at every oppertunity. .

I do not swing on the pole, but I've been known to yodel in the canyon.

553 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:30:11pm
554 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:30:20pm

re: #463 Rexatosis

Good post - and lets not forget that any Soviet POWs - not the Nazi collaborators, but ordinary Soviet soldiers who had the misfortune to become POWs - were shipped straight into the GULAG.
Solshenytzin wrote about this ...

555 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #502 Kosh's Shadow

Some Ford plant. Henry would be proud, the old Jew-hater.

He might have worked in Cleveland Engine Plant No. 1 (Ford), which opened in 1951.

556 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:30:42pm

re: #534 Occasional Reader

MYRDDIN WON THE PENNANT! MYRDDIN WON THE PENNANT!

HORSES ASS AWARD.

557 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:30:47pm

Karma: -300
Myrddin Emrys
Registered since: Dec 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 49
No. of links posted: 0

This is not turning out to be a good day for them. ;)

558 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:30:48pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

I have to wonder what his position was. If it really was "Camp Guard", how is that different than any other "Camp Guard"? Hell, there are people screaming about Guantanamo, are we going to be sending those "Camp Guards" to a similar fate sixty years from now?

Yes, being a Nazi Death Camp guard doesn't get you put on my Christmas card list. But I have to ask what is behind their zealousness in prosecuting a "Camp Guard" when there are probably hundreds living (and collecting pensions) in Germany today.

If there is more to the story, then say it. Charging a guy with 29,000 counts of "Accessory to Murder" isn't exactly done to drive a point home, it's more for facetime in the media. They could have quietly charged him with say five counts of "accessory to murder" and quietly had his @$$ brought back to Germany.

And before this gets modded down or I'm branded "Anti-semetic" like many others have been, I'm only asking questions. I am not trying to downplay the atrocities of Nazis...I am simply asking the benefit of prosecuting a "Camp Guard".

What part of "JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS" don't you get?

Why do it quietly? LET THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD KNOW THAT THOSE WHO COMMIT GENOCIDE WILL NOT REST IN PEACE.

559 opnion  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:30:49pm

re: #510 Nevergiveup

The death camps were all on the eastern front

No, I was referring to Regular German Army, their combat troops.

560 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:31:05pm
561 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:31:25pm

I know it can happen here. Fact is, I think it's likely. Heil Obama and all that shit.

562 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:31:27pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

John Demjanjuk was not just another camp guard like some buffoonish Sgt Schultz. He was noted for his enthusiasm and sadism.

563 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:31:33pm

re: #555 Ward Cleaver

We have a winner! bingbingbing!

564 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:31:34pm

Ohfercryinoutloud.

My wife just called me, telling me they sent a note home saying my son cannot wear his Transformers shirt anymore because one of them is holding a gun. Gees.

565 Dustyvet  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:31:35pm

re: #540 subsailor68

Hm, Myrddin's up to 244 down-dings. Guess most folks musta' disagreed with him (or her).

;-)

The Captain called, he'd like the sea kittens in his cabin removed...:)

566 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:31:40pm

re: #433 buzzsawmonkey

And people wonder who the Nazis of today are.

HINT: off with your head

567 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:32:06pm

re: #542 WriterMom

People who escaped the camps were not believed. Even those who made it to North America and tried to warn people were not taken seriously.

Well yes and no. Word got out thru a variety of sources. What was done with that information or not done and by whom for what reasons is a whole book. A long one. People knew, but for a variety of reasons, like the WAR and also anti-semitism, often nothing was done. But your right it was so unbelievable that many people did not believe.

568 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:32:12pm

re: #475 albusteve

urban myth...Afghanis cannot be that barbaric

And they make very nice comforters........
/

569 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:32:13pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

I have to wonder what his position was. If it really was "Camp Guard", how is that different than any other "Camp Guard"? Hell, there are people screaming about Guantanamo, are we going to be sending those "Camp Guards" to a similar fate sixty years from now?

Yes, being a Nazi Death Camp guard doesn't get you put on my Christmas card list. But I have to ask what is behind their zealousness in prosecuting a "Camp Guard" when there are probably hundreds living (and collecting pensions) in Germany today.

If there is more to the story, then say it. Charging a guy with 29,000 counts of "Accessory to Murder" isn't exactly done to drive a point home, it's more for facetime in the media. They could have quietly charged him with say five counts of "accessory to murder" and quietly had his @$$ brought back to Germany.

And before this gets modded down or I'm branded "Anti-semetic" like many others have been, I'm only asking questions. I am not trying to downplay the atrocities of Nazis...I am simply asking the benefit of prosecuting a "Camp Guard".

Ummm... are you the same guy who just posted nearly identical drivel on my blog? You are reprehensible for attempting to link Nazi war crimes - murdering innocents in the death and concentration camps, with US soldiers operating prisons holding terrorists and insurgents while upholding the Geneva Conventions and UCMJ.

570 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:32:31pm

re: #474 Kostya Lotz

Demanjuk attempted suicide in 1990. He was despondent over the harassment of his family and thought his checking out would give them rest. It only encouraged the local militant leftists.

I think elements within German society eagerly want to be rid of their "yoke" of war guilt. They want what the Japanese have. And since there is an abundance of former GDR lawyers putin' about, maybe they can arrange a distraction or two.

Thanks - good points, especially in that last sentence!

;-)

571 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:32:33pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

GET OUTA HERE. Worth sending to Michelle Malkin IMHO.

572 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:32:34pm

re: #541 Nevergiveup

How ignorant of history are you?

Another puppet or troll.

573 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:32:41pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

John Demjanjuk was more than "Camp Guard" implying sitting in a tower or walking the perimeter. He took (allegedly) active part in mass killings.

574 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:33:19pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Ohfercryinoutloud.

My wife just called me, telling me they sent a note home saying my son cannot wear his Transformers shirt anymore because one of them is holding a gun. Gees.

Send him to school with a Transformers shirt, with one of them holding a Bible instead.

No? What?!

575 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:33:39pm

re: #567 Nevergiveup

Correct-there was a different kind of denial from the Jews in Europe that the escapees tried to warn, and different motivations for burrying, ignoring or minimizing the information once the escapees reached North America.

576 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:33:55pm

re: #559 opnion

No, I was referring to Regular German Army, their combat troops.

Because Hitler obviously never read War & Peace. What a jerk.

577 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:00pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

Attack of the Antisemitic Fascist Supporting Sockpuppets!

578 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:00pm

re: #563 Kostya Lotz

We have a winner! bingbingbing!

It shut down for a little while (the 302 in my truck was built there), but is reopening to build the EcoBoost (direct injected and turbocharged) V6.

579 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:20pm

re: #574 Taqiyyotomist

Send him to school with a Transformers shirt, with one of them holding a Bible instead.

No? What?!

just put a piece of duct tape over it...push back

580 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:30pm
581 redstateredneck  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:38pm

Have any of y'all seen the documentary film, "Steal a Pencil For Me"? I watched it last weekend and found it to be a very sweet love story set amid the horror of the camps.

582 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:47pm

re: #98 Myrddin Emrys

I write slowly and besides, they all say the same thing: "It is right" or "He has to pay for what he has done" and so on and so forth. I have yet to see a reasoned argument thrown my way

If someone you love was murdered in cold blood, would you want the authorities to pursue the perpetrators to the ends of the earth for as long as it takes to bring them to justice or would you say "They can go...I don't hold a grudge"?

If you answered Option B, I'd say you're full of it...

583 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:56pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Ohfercryinoutloud.

My wife just called me, telling me they sent a note home saying my son cannot wear his Transformers shirt anymore because one of them is holding a gun. Gees.

I'd be tempted to say "send him back to school tomorrow with this T-shirt", but that's probably not a good idea.

584 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:34:59pm

re: #541 Nevergiveup

How ignorant of history are you?

Very, and mostly likely proud of that fact.

585 Kenneth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:09pm

re: #542 WriterMom

I think there had to be a level of willful denial. They suspected the escaped Jews were telling the truth but ignored it to deny their own culpability in appeasing the Nazis or their guilt over their failure to help the Jews. They wanted the Jews, and their troubled consciences, to just go away.

586 LGoPs  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:13pm

re: #494 Kosh's Shadow

Afghans had a sport of playing polo with the heads of enemies probably for centuries, IIRC.

Man, that's a hell of a long game. Each quarter must have been measured in decades. And half time......hell you could raise a family during it.
:)

587 Render  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:19pm

Something not generally known about the Waffen SS...

Almost all of the Waffen SS units trained at and were based at the concentration and death camps. The exceptions being Skorzeny's para commandos who had their own training grounds and operated outside of normal SS or Wermacht control. The Kama, Skanderbeg, and several other foreign legion divisions trained in their home regions. But the three Muslim SS units all trained at the SS work camp at Poniatowa, Poland. The Mufti requested such.

Upon a quick skimming the Wiki for the 14th SS is currently accurate.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

A certain somebody here should take note that the 14th SS and the Belgian Wallonian Legion were the only SS units allowed to have Christian chaplains.

OUT
OF
SMOKES,
R

588 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:23pm

re: #571 WriterMom

GET OUTA HERE. Worth sending to Michelle Malkin IMHO.

I'm off Friday. I have to confront this BS.

589 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:26pm

OT: WTF? Paraphrasing from memory, noon news talking head:

"Pres. Obama plans to sign a massive spending bill full of the same kind of pet projects he promised to eliminate".

Is that criticism, from the MSM? Couldn't be, I must have heard it wrong.

590 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:28pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

Another one.
bwohlgemuth
(Logged in)
Registered since: Aug 2, 2004 at 5:19 am
No. of comments posted: 43
No. of links posted: 0

591 Silhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:37pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Ohfercryinoutloud.

My wife just called me, telling me they sent a note home saying my son cannot wear his Transformers shirt anymore because one of them is holding a gun. Gees.

How many more children have to die from wounds inflicted by iron-on patch facsimiles of guns before we as a society take t-shirt iron-ons seriously?

592 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:40pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Ohfercryinoutloud.

My wife just called me, telling me they sent a note home saying my son cannot wear his Transformers shirt anymore because one of them is holding a gun. Gees.

WTF. Public or private?.

593 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:35:57pm

re: #586 LGoPs

Man, that's a hell of a long game. Each quarter must have been measured in decades. And half time......hell you could raise a family during it.
:)

hahahaha!.....lordy!

594 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:07pm

re: #575 WriterMom

Correct-there was a different kind of denial from the Jews in Europe that the escapees tried to warn, and different motivations for burrying, ignoring or minimizing the information once the escapees reached North America.

Yes, but I was talking about those high up in Allied Intelligence. It was NO secret.

595 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:14pm

re: #583 Occasional Reader

Oh, hell yeah. :)

596 turn  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:15pm

re: #507 Erik The Red

That was a starter portion. Not too hard.

MM's "Is that you Pat?" cracked me up.

597 Dianna  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:37pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

He was - according to the article - something of an overachiever in the brutality department.

Read the article before asking questions that get one branded a troll.

598 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:41pm

re: #562 Kenneth

John Demjanjuk was not just another camp guard like some buffoonish Sgt Schultz. He was noted for his enthusiasm and sadism.

Interesting that John Banner was Jewish, and escaped because he was outside of Germany at the right time.
The person who played LeBeau had been in the concentration camps.

599 avanti  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:44pm

re: #545 Erik The Red

Avanti you can be an ass. But at least you have a sense of humour.

I'm the Redskins fan in the Dallas bleachers. I don't expect to be bought a beer, I expect to have one poured on me. It's a tough crowd, you deal with it.

600 Silhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:44pm

re: #583 Occasional Reader

I'd be tempted to say "send him back to school tomorrow with this T-shirt", but that's probably not a good idea.

I'm here to report that I wore that to Dollywood with no objections or problems.

601 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:36:57pm
602 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:37:09pm

re: #592 Erik The Red

WTF. Public or private?.

Public for now. Private school for a child with Fragile-X is a bit over our heads at this point.

603 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:37:56pm

re: #587 Render

There were plenty SS combat troops on both fronts. And they were viscous.

604 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:38:19pm

re: #579 albusteve

just put a piece of duct tape over it...push back

I like.

605 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:38:21pm

re: #580 Iron Fist

One of the reasons I believe in Universal armament. You may not, in the end, be able to defeate the people who come to kill you. But you can damn sure make them pay a price for what they do.

Can't get a CCW permit in CA - so I keep a min legal (18") sawed off Rem 870 at home loaded w/ 00.

I comply.

606 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:38:25pm

Here is a story of a person doing a great thing. Leon McLaughlin. Polar Opposite.

607 formercorpsman  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:38:27pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Pure insanity.

608 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:38:34pm

re: #590 CapeCoddah

Actually had a stealth upding supporter.

609 Dianna  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:38:45pm

re: #554 yma o hyd

Good post - and lets not forget that any Soviet POWs - not the Nazi collaborators, but ordinary Soviet soldiers who had the misfortune to become POWs - were shipped straight into the GULAG.
Solshenytzin wrote about this ...

"Traitors of the Motherland" was what they were called; a very interesting phrasing.

610 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:39:05pm

re: #602 SasquatchOnSteroids

Public for now. Private school for a child with Fragile-X is a bit over our heads at this point.

What is Fragile-X? If it is not to personal.

611 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:39:17pm

re: #603 Nevergiveup

They were viscous, like toothpaste.:)

612 wolfie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:39:19pm

re: #567 Nevergiveup

If you check out the propaganda used by all sides in WWI, you can see why many people dismissed the accounts as gross exaggerations. They had learned to take such things with a heap of salt.

613 Pupdawg  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:39:25pm

re: #2 turn

It would be interesting to find out just how he ended up in Ohio.

Germantown is in Ohio, right?

614 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:39:43pm

re: #611 Taqiyyotomist

They were viscous, like toothpaste.:)

Shit sorry. OOps.

615 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:07pm

re: #543 buzzsawmonkey

Yes. See MJ's post #450 above: "Neighbors."

I have - I ought to know by now that there'll always be at least one Lizard who has the information, and is faster at posting it than my muddled rememberings!

:-)

616 CapeCoddah  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:08pm

re: #608 FurryOldGuyJeans

Actually had a stealth upding supporter.

There is one in every crowd! Putz.

617 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:09pm

re: #578 Ward Cleaver

We'll see how long that lasts. I'm not a motor-head, just a casual observer and student of history. The GM plant in Cleveland and the Ford assembly plant in Avon Lake, look like ghost towns.

618 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:16pm

re: #613 Pupdawg

Germantown is in Ohio, right?

yes

619 cronus  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:31pm

Hmmm, I've never downdinged anyone before. But after reading someone express ambivalence towards seeing justice done for tens of thousands of holocaust victims, it kinda feels like the right time to start.

620 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:33pm

re: #541 Nevergiveup

How ignorant of history are you?

Depends. I know what the Nazis did, I know they should be tried and punished. There's a big difference in my book between "Camp Guard" and "Executioner". As some people have point out, there are happy former SS guys driving around, wasting oxygen, and I don't see them being charged with crimes against humanity.

What's really funny is how a single counterpoint or answer hasn't been made against what I asked. Unless you count the modding down of anyone who asks a serious question....

621 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:41pm

re: #603 Nevergiveup

There were plenty SS combat troops on both fronts. And they were viscous.

You mean they were a well "oiled" machine?

(I know, just a typo - but sometimes a good typo can make ya laugh out loud.)

:-)

622 avanti  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:42pm

re: #560 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, avanti--lest you think I was picking on you personally in the prior thread, I urge you (and, for that matter, anyone else) to read George Orwell's excellent essay "Poltics and the English Language," in which he discusses the need for clarity and simplicity and for pruning the deadwood of useless or inappropriate phrases.

I didn't take it that way, I'll admit to being careless about language, but I can overall a Studebaker V8 in the dark, so I prioritize what to remember. At my age, I can hide my own Easter eggs.

623 Silhouette  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:43pm

re: #598 Kosh's Shadow

Interesting that John Banner was Jewish, and escaped because he was outside of Germany at the right time.
The person who played LeBeau had been in the concentration camps.

A lot of people criticized Hogan's Heros for making light of Nazis, as if they were harmless buffoons. But the participation of Banner and the rest makes me think otherwise. Besides, Satan hates to be mocked.

The actors who played the four major German roles--Werner Klemperer (Klink), John Banner (Schultz), Leon Askin (Burkhalter) and Howard Caine (Hochstetter)--were Jewish.

Furthermore, Klemperer, Banner, Askin and Robert Clary (LeBeau) were Jews who had fled the Nazis during World War II.

624 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:40:46pm

re: #605 Bobibutu

Can't get a CCW permit in CA - so I keep a min legal (18") sawed off Rem 870 at home loaded w/ 00.

#1 buckshot (plated, buffered) is actually an even better bet, in terms of optimal wound ballistics. Of course, double-ought will certainly get the goblin's full and undivided attention!

625 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:41:44pm

re: #613 Pupdawg

dufus.

626 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:41:44pm

re: #610 Erik The Red

What is Fragile-X? If it is not to personal.

He's very mildly mentally impaired, it's closely related to autism

627 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:41:46pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

What's really funny is how a single counterpoint or answer hasn't been made against what I asked

Uh, not true. Look again.

628 formercorpsman  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:42:20pm

re: #599 avanti

Just as long as your not a Cowboy's fan in the Eagles bleachers.

629 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:42:33pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

Depends. I know what the Nazis did, I know they should be tried and punished. There's a big difference in my book between "Camp Guard" and "Executioner". As some people have point out, there are happy former SS guys driving around, wasting oxygen, and I don't see them being charged with crimes against humanity.

What's really funny is how a single counterpoint or answer hasn't been made against what I asked. Unless you count the modding down of anyone who asks a serious question....

Your making a differentiation that did NOT exist. Many of the Guards were executioners and all of the executioners were guards of some sort. Think about rectangles and squares.

630 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:42:40pm

re: #624 Occasional Reader

#1 buckshot (plated, buffered) is actually an even better bet, in terms of optimal wound ballistics. Of course, double-ought will certainly get the goblin's full and undivided attention!

non of which is available in ABQ....I have to shoot game loads for fun

631 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:42:53pm
632 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:43:31pm

re: #621 subsailor68

You mean they were a well "oiled" machine?

(I know, just a typo - but sometimes a good typo can make ya laugh out loud.)

:-)

Actually being on this blog has made me a much better typist and speller but sometimes my old ignorance shines on thru.

633 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:43:33pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

You've been answered quite emphatically. You just don't and won't accept it.

634 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:44:01pm

re: #403 Nevergiveup

What's an average citizen during this crazy period? Many of the guards and almost all of the higher ups were in the SS. But there were some "average" soldiers there and remember Demjanjuk was not German. He was a fascist and belong to a fascist Ukrainian party.

The Ukrainian volunteers were much more enthusiastic and brutal Jew killers.

635 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:44:03pm

re: #624 Occasional Reader

#1 buckshot (plated, buffered) is actually an even better bet, in terms of optimal wound ballistics. Of course, double-ought will certainly get the goblin's full and undivided attention!

Why, thank you. The handy things we learn here. ;-)

636 avanti  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:44:16pm

re: #628 formercorpsman

Just as long as your not a Cowboy's fan in the Eagles bleachers.

Then you get pissed on.

637 Dustyvet  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:44:17pm

Send the lad back to school in the the morning wearing this...


Image: funny_gun_control_t_shirt-p235845379629862666qd00_400.jpg

638 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:44:29pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

BBQ hot. 2 on one thread.

639 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:45:15pm

re: #630 albusteve

non of which is available in ABQ....I have to shoot game loads for fun

ABQ = Albequerque?

And... you're kidding me! You can't get buckshot?! Even here in gun-grabbin' DC, I can legally own buckshot.

640 wolfie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:45:26pm

re: #636 avanti

A fate that ALL Cowboy fans deserve, IMHO!

641 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:45:34pm

re: #570 yma o hyd

Is bwohlgemuth Welsh?

642 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:06pm

re: #626 SasquatchOnSteroids

He's very mildly mentally impaired, it's closely related to autism

Sorry to hear that. Give him the best you can afford. God Bless

643 subsailor68  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:06pm

re: #632 Nevergiveup

Actually being on this blog has made me a much better typist and speller but sometimes my old ignorance shines on thru.

Well, having read your posts for a time now, haven't seen any evidence of ignorance. But if you gotta make a typo, it's always fun when it turns out to be a cute one.

;-)

644 Rexatosis  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:07pm

RE # 535 Lifeofthemind

Common Law is the legal basis of the law in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, UK etc., the "Two Bites at the Apple" principle has been in effect for at least a couple of hundred years and the use of Federal Civil Rights laws allowing the Federal Government a "second bite at the apple" is, historically, a recent innovation running counter to the overall history of common law due to a particular historical circumstance (hence the use of the term "usually" in my original post). While Germany may have the legal basis for prosecution it goes against the legal tradition I am culturally comfortable with (as does the Napoleonic code's assumption of guilt rather than innocence). Whether the defendant in this case is another "Ivan" is irrelevant to the fact the Israeli Courts found him not to be the specific "Ivan" he was accused of being.

645 formercorpsman  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:25pm

re: #636 avanti

Yeah, after getting beat up by the mob in the bathroom when taking your own piss.

I'll be the first to say, Eagles fans are brutal.

& I am a lifelong Eagles fan. I just won't partake of that stuff.

646 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:33pm

re: #642 Erik The Red

Sorry to hear that. Give him the best you can afford. God Bless

Thanks.

647 justabill  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:34pm

re: #422 wolfie

Just my opinion: I would hold anyone who worked in a death camp responsible as an accessory. Penalties could vary widely, according to degree of involvement and individual circumstances, but I'd haul every one of them into court.
As for ordinary Germans, you cannot prove what each and every one knew or did not know about the Final Solution.

Would this include Jews who were put into the "get to live and work in the camp" line as opposed to the "Showers" line, when they came off the train?

648 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:44pm

re: #634 Alouette

Some were, as the Croats, Slovenes, Arab FrieCorp (Bosnians & Albainians-mostly), Lithuianians, Latvians, Belorus, Slovaks, anybody missing? But not all.

649 Dustyvet  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:53pm

re: #637 Dustyvet

Send the lad back to school in the the morning wearing this...

[Link: rlv.zcache.com...]

or this one...:)


Image: imaogun600.jpg

650 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:46:55pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

Depends. I know what the Nazis did, I know they should be tried and punished. There's a big difference in my book between "Camp Guard" and "Executioner". As some people have point out, there are happy former SS guys driving around, wasting oxygen, and I don't see them being charged with crimes against humanity.

What's really funny is how a single counterpoint or answer hasn't been made against what I asked. Unless you count the modding down of anyone who asks a serious question....

As someone pointed out above, those who participate in crimes which lead to the deaths of others are held equally accountable as those who actually do the killing.

651 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:47:31pm

re: #619 cronus

Hmmm, I've never downdinged anyone before. But after reading someone express ambivalence towards seeing justice done for tens of thousands of holocaust victims, it kinda feels like the right time to start.

Bring it on.

652 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:47:40pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

Depends. I know what the Nazis did, I know they should be tried and punished. There's a big difference in my book between "Camp Guard" and "Executioner". As some people have point out, there are happy former SS guys driving around, wasting oxygen, and I don't see them being charged with crimes against humanity.

What's really funny is how a single counterpoint or answer hasn't been made against what I asked. Unless you count the modding down of anyone who asks a serious question....

OK. I'll also answer the earlier one about guards at Gitmo.
In either case, they were engaging in war crimes, due to the nature of the camps.
Let's pick a different job title. Sniper
A police department sniper is working within the law; a criminal sniper (e.g. the one who terrorized DC a few years ago) is not.
Same title, drastically different duties. One legal; the other is not, for good reason.

Similarly, guards at prisons for enemy combatants, those who by their actions have shown themselves to be enemies, are acting within international law, as long as they obey certain restrictions.
Guards at a camp for killing civilians are supporting war crimes, even if they aren't actively doing the killing. So here, the difference between guard and executioner is a matter of degree, just like the guy who drives the getaway car where someone is killed isn't guilty of murder, but of being a conspirator or an accessory.
The type of place they work determines whether it is illegal or not.

653 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:47:50pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

Depends. I know what the Nazis did, I know they should be tried and punished. There's a big difference in my book between "Camp Guard" and "Executioner". As some people have point out, there are happy former SS guys driving around, wasting oxygen, and I don't see them being charged with crimes against humanity.

What's really funny is how a single counterpoint or answer hasn't been made against what I asked. Unless you count the modding down of anyone who asks a serious question....

OT question - whats this 'modding down' whereof you speak?
This blog is not moderated - as it clearly states in the green field above.

654 Nevergiveup  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:47:56pm

re: #647 justabill

Would this include Jews who were put into the "get to live and work in the camp" line as opposed to the "Showers" line, when they came off the train?

I think he means "work" as in running the camp, not doing "work--ie slave labor".

655 Lee Coller  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:48:34pm

re: #644 Rexatosis

RE # 535 Lifeofthemind

Common Law is the legal basis of the law in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, UK etc., the "Two Bites at the Apple" principle has been in effect for at least a couple of hundred years and the use of Federal Civil Rights laws allowing the Federal Government a "second bite at the apple" is, historically, a recent innovation running counter to the overall history of common law due to a particular historical circumstance (hence the use of the term "usually" in my original post). While Germany may have the legal basis for prosecution it goes against the legal tradition I am culturally comfortable with (as does the Napoleonic code's assumption of guilt rather than innocence). Whether the defendant in this case is another "Ivan" is irrelevant to the fact the Israeli Courts found him not to be the specific "Ivan" he was accused of being.

That's like saying if we try someone for one murder and they are acquited, if I later found out it was a different murder he committed I can't try him.

656 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:49:31pm

re: #644 Rexatosis

the "Two Bites at the Apple" principle has been in effect for at least a couple of hundred years and the use of Federal Civil Rights laws allowing the Federal Government a "second bite at the apple" is, historically, a recent innovation running counter to the overall history of common law

The "different sovereign" exception to double jeopardy is NOT a "recent innovation".

657 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:49:44pm

re: #527 bwohlgemuth

I have to wonder what his position was. If it really was "Camp Guard", how is that different than any other "Camp Guard"? Hell, there are people screaming about Guantanamo, are we going to be sending those "Camp Guards" to a similar fate sixty years from now?

Yes, being a Nazi Death Camp guard doesn't get you put on my Christmas card list. But I have to ask what is behind their zealousness in prosecuting a "Camp Guard" when there are probably hundreds living (and collecting pensions) in Germany today.

If there is more to the story, then say it. Charging a guy with 29,000 counts of "Accessory to Murder" isn't exactly done to drive a point home, it's more for facetime in the media. They could have quietly charged him with say five counts of "accessory to murder" and quietly had his @$$ brought back to Germany.

And before this gets modded down or I'm branded "Anti-semetic" like many others have been, I'm only asking questions. I am not trying to downplay the atrocities of Nazis...I am simply asking the benefit of prosecuting a "Camp Guard".

Those who were not educated enough to be bookkeepers were all "camp guards." A "camp guard" at a Nazi death facility was not the same as being a "camp guard" private security patrol at Camp Dumpyourkidsforamonth at Lake Fanciful, Minnesota.

658 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:49:44pm

re: #416 Desert Dog

That was the choice many people had in German. Most took the path that allowed them to live. It was a horrible time in human history....the entire war. I hope we never live to see that kind of slaughter and destruction ever again.

I have the same hope but unfortunately we are playing out the 1930's all over again.

659 aggieann  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:49:46pm

re: #579 albusteve

just put a piece of duct tape over it...push back

Gun-shaped duct tape.

660 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:49:57pm

re: #647 justabill

"Showers" were reserved for the old, infirmed, female (middle aged), frail males, and children of non-Aryan appeal. Sometimes the choice was arbitrary, in the beginning. Otherwise, everybody "worked".

661 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:50:29pm

re: #652 Kosh's Shadow

OK. I'll also answer the earlier one about guards at Gitmo.
In either case, they were engaging in war crimes, due to the nature of the camps.
Let's pick a different job title. Sniper
A police department sniper is working within the law; a criminal sniper (e.g. the one who terrorized DC a few years ago) is not.
Same title, drastically different duties. One legal; the other is not, for good reason.

Similarly, guards at prisons for enemy combatants, those who by their actions have shown themselves to be enemies, are acting within international law, as long as they obey certain restrictions.
Guards at a camp for killing civilians are supporting war crimes, even if they aren't actively doing the killing. So here, the difference between guard and executioner is a matter of degree, just like the guy who drives the getaway car where someone is killed isn't guilty of murder, but of being a conspirator or an accessory.The type of place they work determines whether it is illegal or not.

They can be charged with felony murder.

662 Erik The Red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:50:36pm

Good night Lizards. See you on the LNDT.

663 albusteve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:50:54pm

re: #639 Occasional Reader

ABQ = Albequerque?

And... you're kidding me! You can't get buckshot?! Even here in gun-grabbin' DC, I can legally own buckshot.

it's legal but very hard to find anything game and trap loads....people just snap it up instantly...and it can't be for hunting....I wonder if the police buy it reatail....I only have about 200 rds of various loads...#1 on down and don't want to shoot it because I'm having so much trouble replacing it..the shelves are almost always empty

664 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:51:46pm

re: #562 Kenneth

John Demjanjuk was not just another camp guard like some buffoonish Sgt Schultz. He was noted for his enthusiasm and sadism.

OK, bring forward the eyewitnesses. Let's prosecute him for crimes outside of the Geneva Convention.... But let's stick to what we're supposed to do, which is limited by international law, customs, and treaty.

This guy (literally) wasn't Ivan the Terrible. If he acted outside of his duties (as prescribed in the Geneva Convention), then I have no problem with this prosecution. 29,000 counts you have to admit is a bit of grandstanding by the prosecution.

I would like to see the German attack every SS officer with the same veracity...don't think that will happen however. And the people attacking myself and others for raising those question should ask that of themselves (crap, does that make sense?)

665 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:51:50pm

re: #638 Erik The Red

BBQ hot. 2 on one thread.

2 counts, accessory to Myrddin.

666 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:51:51pm

I'm outta' here.

667 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:52:03pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

Depends. I know what the Nazis did, I know they should be tried and punished. There's a big difference in my book between "Camp Guard" and "Executioner". As some people have point out, there are happy former SS guys driving around, wasting oxygen, and I don't see them being charged with crimes against humanity.

What's really funny is how a single counterpoint or answer hasn't been made against what I asked. Unless you count the modding down of anyone who asks a serious question....

Uuuh, did anyone, captured by the Allies, ever claim to be an "executioner"? They were all lowly "camp guards" or harmless "bookkeepers."

668 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:52:08pm

re: #631 buzzsawmonkey

Werner Klemperer (Colonel Klink) was also a refugee from the Nazis--as were Peter Lorre and Conrad Veidt, both of whom played many Nazis in war-era films.

Christopher Isherwood describes Veidt, prior to the Nazi takeover, presiding over a drag ball in Berlin. He doesn't come right out and say that Veidt was homosexual, but it is implied.

Peter Lorre was an outstanding actor.
He was wonderful in Casablanca - but his pest performance was in that German film about the hunt for a murderer, 'M'.
IMHO.

669 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:52:27pm

re: #652 Kosh's Shadow

Let's pick a different job title. Sniper
A police department sniper is working within the law; a criminal sniper (e.g. the one who terrorized DC a few years ago) is not.

Both use evil, icky guns to, like, hurt people. So they're morally equivalent.

///

670 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:52:27pm
671 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:52:31pm

re: #661 MandyManners

They can be charged with felony murder.

OK. Thanks. They certainly don't get off. I think I made my point, though, although troll skulls are usually impervious. Do I get to have some of the gamey troll buttocks now?

672 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:52:43pm

re: #647 justabill

Would this include Jews who were put into the "get to live and work in the camp" line as opposed to the "Showers" line, when they came off the train?

Were they willing participants or coerced (on pain of death) into participating?

Therein lies the difference.

I don't mean the "coerision" of the German citizens in the fear of the regime. I mean the choice up entering the camps type of choice. Work or the showers.

673 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:53:27pm

re: #557 FurryOldGuyJeans

Karma: -300
Myrddin Emrys
Registered since: Dec 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 49
No. of links posted: 0

This is not turning out to be a good day for them. ;)

Quite frankly, if Myrddin and their ilk can't or don't want to understand why we continue to pursue Nazi war criminals into old age to bring them to justice, then they can just go to Hell...all they're doing at that point is just stirring up shit because they can.

674 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:53:47pm

re: #641 MandyManners

Is bwohlgemuth Welsh?

Definitely not!
Looks German to me, but then I may have 'German' on my brain, on this thread ...

675 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:55:01pm

re: #647 justabill

Would this include Jews who were put into the "get to live and work in the camp" line as opposed to the "Showers" line, when they came off the train?

Just the ones who volunteered before being asked.

May I ask, do you know the difference between someone who applies to do a job he wants and a slave who is coerced?

676 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:55:15pm

re: #664 bwohlgemuth

If he acted outside of his duties (as prescribed in the Geneva Convention)

Good lord.

Which part of "Sobibor death camp" did you not understand?

677 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:56:21pm

re: #676 Occasional Reader

Good lord.

Which part of "Sobibor death camp" did you not understand?

All of it.

678 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:56:42pm

re: #657 Alouette

Those who were not educated enough to be bookkeepers were all "camp guards." A "camp guard" at a Nazi death facility was not the same as being a "camp guard" private security patrol at Camp Dumpyourkidsforamonth at Lake Fanciful, Minnesota.

It's a serious question, what were the expected duties of a "camp guard" at a concentration camp. The Nazis were quite organized, there (seriously) should be a list of what expected duties were at the camp. If he went outside of that list....he's open game. He was (admitted) a uniformed part of the army, therefore covered by Geneva Convention (if I am wrong, please explain why).

I am not an expert in international law, hence why I ask these questions and hope for legitimate answers. Yes, I have read many answer to questions similar to mine, and most of them are pretty crappy/vengeful/attack the questioner.

I think you guys are mistaking my "umm...what are you doing?" as "you shouldn't be doing that!".

679 Dustyvet  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:56:49pm

re: #674 yma o hyd

Definitely not!
Looks German to me, but then I may have 'German' on my brain, on this thread ...

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.com is the longest single word (without hyphens) .com domain name in the world. It was registered by Internetters on 21st October 1999.

This Welsh town actually exists and its name translates as "The church of St. Mary in the hollow of white hazel trees near the rapid whirlpool by St. Tysilio's of the red cave".


Now that's Welsh!...

/S


Ear itch for Madame...

680 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:57:09pm

re: #667 Alouette

Uuuh, did anyone, captured by the Allies, ever claim to be an "executioner"? They were all lowly "camp guards" or harmless "bookkeepers."

After the surrender, there were no Nazis in Germany, at all.
Its a well-known fact.

//

681 lifeofthemind  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:57:17pm

re: #644 Rexatosis

RE # 535 Lifeofthemind

Common Law is the legal basis of the law in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, UK etc., the "Two Bites at the Apple" principle has been in effect for at least a couple of hundred years and the use of Federal Civil Rights laws allowing the Federal Government a "second bite at the apple" is, historically, a recent innovation running counter to the overall history of common law due to a particular historical circumstance (hence the use of the term "usually" in my original post). While Germany may have the legal basis for prosecution it goes against the legal tradition I am culturally comfortable with (as does the Napoleonic code's assumption of guilt rather than innocence). Whether the defendant in this case is another "Ivan" is irrelevant to the fact the Israeli Courts found him not to be the specific "Ivan" he was accused of being.

Germany uses basically the Roman Law system.
What is your point? A man who was found ineligible for United States citizenship because he lied on his application is being extradited to a place that has, by our standards, jurisdiction to prosecute a crime. Our role is to see to it that our laws are not violated in removing him to that place. The fact that Israel, a third party, did not convict him is completely irrelevant. As far as the multiple prosecutions and risks involved goes it seems to me that the burden is on the criminal to not do there acts in a way that involve multiple jurisdictions. This is nothing like the Spanish or the Belgians asserting a fictitious right to sit in judgement on conduct all around the world. The crimes were done by agents of the German State and the German State is prosecuting.

682 Russkilitlover  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:57:39pm

re: #657 Alouette

683 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:59:09pm

Why do I have this vision of these trolls sitting in brown shirts and jackboots, at their computers in a room decorated with Nazi memorabilia, frothing at the mouth under their Hitler moustaches?

684 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:59:14pm
685 Russkilitlover  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:59:17pm

re: #657 Alouette

not the same as being a "camp guard" private security patrol at Camp Dumpyourkidsforamonth at Lake Fanciful, Minnesota.

You sound pretty bitter. Do you want to talk about it? ;-}

686 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:59:47pm

re: #674 yma o hyd

Definitely not!
Looks German to me, but then I may have 'German' on my brain, on this thread ...

German ancestry, along with English, Danish, Swedish. Family emigrated to the US prior/during WW1.

Althought I do have a Welsh uncle...

re: #677 FurryOldGuyJeans

All of it.

Actually, I do understand it quite well. I don't think that was the official title, but I could be wrong.

687 cronus  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 12:59:52pm

re: #620 bwohlgemuth

Depends. I know what the Nazis did, I know they should be tried and punished. There's a big difference in my book between "Camp Guard" and "Executioner".

And there in lies the problem of participating in mass murder. Seeing as who lived and who died could be arbitrary. who gets punished for that atrocity may also be arbitrary. When you witness pure evil and aide that evil by "doing your job" you shouldn't be surprised that you could get caught in the wake of humanity seeking justice even if others who are equally guilty somehow manage to avoid justice.

There's any easy answer available to anyone who finds themselves in this situation -- do everything you can to prevent the atrocity. Doing anything less and you forfeit your right to be surprised if you don't receive the "understanding" you think you deserve when your actions or lack there of come home to roost.

688 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:00:49pm

re: #664 bwohlgemuth

What part of the camps were legal under the Geneva Conventions?

689 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:00:54pm

re: #679 Dustyvet

Thanks, {Dustyvet}!

Lllanfairpwll (as its usually known) is quite nice - but there are much better places to visit in Wales.

Madame says thank you!

BIAB!

690 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:01:10pm

re: #582 talon_262

If someone you love was murdered in cold blood, would you want the authorities to pursue the perpetrators to the ends of the earth for as long as it takes to bring them to justice or would you say "They can go...I don't hold a grudge"?

If you answered Option B, I'd say you're full of it...

One good argument would be that society relies on the certainty that proscribed acts will not be tolerated to maintain order and harmony. To the extent that there is uncertainty, members of the society, especially those with power, will believe that they can do whatever they want and likely go unpunished. No society can stand for long without such certainty.

If the dictators of the world believe they will go unpunished, the world needs to slap them down, hold them accountable as with Saddam Hussein to keep others of similar mind (Mohamar Qadaffi) in check.

John Demjanjuk needs to be held accountable for that and many other moral reasons that I didn't address.

691 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:01:16pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Ohfercryinoutloud.

My wife just called me, telling me they sent a note home saying my son cannot wear his Transformers shirt anymore because one of them is holding a gun. Gees.

Fragile-x, first I have heard of this. Do the teachers understand? Auspergers occurred in my family and the educational system was almost abusive in it's inability to understand. Anyone not in an institution needs specialized and individualized assistance.

692 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:01:26pm

re: #172 Myrddin Emrys

This is a completely inappropriate comparison. Al Qaeda (last I checked) is actively in the terrorism business. The pursuit of bin Laden is a matter of national security, not criminal justics.

Oh, you're such a morally relativistic choad...go eat a bag of d**ks.

693 justabill  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:02:07pm

re: #564 SasquatchOnSteroids

Ohfercryinoutloud.

My wife just called me, telling me they sent a note home saying my son cannot wear his Transformers shirt anymore because one of them is holding a gun. Gees.

First, get them to tell you about their Zero tolerence policies and how they can't make exceptions. Anything that looks like a gun is out. Then show them this page Wiki Improvised Firearms. In particular show them the Pen Gun. Since all pens resemble this gun, insist that they be removed from the schools...

694 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:02:25pm

re: #688 jcm

What part of the camps were legal under the Geneva Conventions?

I'm sure one of those durned Conventions prescribes "lawful duties" at F****NG EXTERMINATION CAMPS, doesn't it?

////

695 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:02:30pm

re: #686 bwohlgemuth

Actually, I do understand it quite well. I don't think that was the official title, but I could be wrong.

No matter what the official name of the camp was, the intent was not legal under international law nor the Geneva Conventions.

696 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:02:37pm

At this point, I need some humor. I'm at work, or I'd find the Monty Python sketch where a couple on holiday find some interesting residents at the rooming house - a Mr. Hilter, a Ron Vibbentrop, a Mr. Bimmler, etc.
"You wouldn't have much fun in Stalingrad"

697 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:03:20pm

re: #688 jcm

What part of the camps were legal under the Geneva Conventions?

The way the UN is going, such camps will become legal.

698 Occasional Reader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:03:45pm

re: #684 buzzsawmonkey

"M" is a superb movie--not only for Lorre's performance, but for the cross-cutting between the police and the criminals both planning to catch the murderer, and the trial scene held before the members of the underworld.

And here I always assumed that it was a spinoff from the Bond movies.

/

699 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:04:16pm
700 Rexatosis  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:04:19pm

RE: #655

As a practical matter if defendant A is acquitted of committing one murder it is a practical impossibility to bring charges against the same defendant for another murder that occurred at the same time (I am not saying one has to like it I am just saying)

Re: #656 Occasional Reader

Different sovereignty is the method used to get around the "Two Bites at the Apple" problem but it's use in this manner is recent and not within the historical traditional use of the principle under common law.

701 Render  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:04:45pm

[Link: www.jewishtoronto.net...]

"83-year-old denies he was in unit that massacred Jews"

"The government has moved to strip Canadian citizenship from an elderly Ontario resident for allegedly lying about his Nazi past as an armed SS guard at forced labour and concentration camps during the Second World War when he came to Canada in 1952."

===

[Link: www1.yadvashem.org...]

Poniatowa.

HARVESTER
OF
SOULS,
R

702 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:05:39pm

re: #684 buzzsawmonkey

"M" is a superb movie--not only for Lorre's performance, but for the cross-cutting between the police and the criminals both planning to catch the murderer, and the trial scene held before the members of the underworld.

The film was banned in Germany, and several of the people involved had to flee because of one line in the film about "a clever liar can deceive millions," which was enough to fall afoul of the rising Nazi regime.

The verse at the beginning, "Wait a little, wait a little, here comes the child-killer" was actually adapted from a folk rhyme current at the time about Harmaan, the Ogre of Hanover. Unlike the killer portrayed by Lorre, Harmaan, who flourished during the inflation period, did not kill little girls. He picked up homeless youths at the train station, slept with them, and then butchered them and sold their flesh on the black market. He escaped detection for a while because he also worked as a police informer, which may have prompted the makers of "M" to draw the parallels they do between criminal and legitimate society.

There was one other, chilling performance in that film, by Gustav Gruendgens. He was the criminal Mastermind, and he got Lorre to confess.
I swear that the makers of that brilliant, comic series about this cafe owner in france under Nazi Occupation, 'Allo Allo' must have copied him for the Gestapo Agent, 'Herr Flick' ...
(It was a most hilarious series, totally mad, totally British, totally barmy!)

703 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:05:46pm

re: #688 jcm

What part of the camps were legal under the Geneva Conventions?

That's a good question. They were uniformed officers acting under a national flag. Would the Geneva Convention cover them or were their actions qualify under "Crimes against Humanity" but I really don't want that charge thrown around willy nilly. The last thing I want to "Crimes Against Humanity" turned into the mess of "Hate Crimes". And we know how much restrain prosecutors use in the latter....

704 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:06:17pm

re: #697 Kosh's Shadow

The way the UN is going, such camps will become legal.

It already is (unfortunately) in West Africa...

705 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:07:04pm

re: #686 bwohlgemuth

Actually, I do understand it quite well. I don't think that was the official title, but I could be wrong.

Is that uncle still alive, and where in Wales is he from?

706 Bloodnok  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:07:14pm

re: #678 bwohlgemuth

The Nazis were quite organized, there (seriously) should be a list of what expected duties were at the camp. If he went outside of that list....he's open game.

According to Sobibor HR records his reviews were quite positive. He scored "Above Average" in the Bloodlust and Sadism categories, but apparently took long lunches.

/in all seriousness you MUST be joking with that argument.

707 Dianna  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:07:49pm

re: #664 bwohlgemuth

To your last sentence - no, you made no sense.

Your point is getting lost in excess verbiage. If your point is that the trial has not yet been held - you are correct. If your point is that this person somehow "isn't that bad", or "this is excessive", I don't think that will hold up.

It doesn't in my anything but humble opinion.

708 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:08:47pm
709 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:09:23pm

re: #700 Rexatosis

RE: #655

As a practical matter if defendant A is acquitted of committing one murder it is a practical impossibility to bring charges against the same defendant for another murder that occurred at the same time (I am not saying one has to like it I am just saying)

Re: #656 Occasional Reader

Different sovereignty is the method used to get around the "Two Bites at the Apple" problem but it's use in this manner is recent and not within the historical traditional use of the principle under common law.

Without reading the charging documents. His he being charged with the same charges or a different set? i.e. different apples.

It's not uncommon for a criminal to be charged by a jurisdiction for a set of crimes and a different jurisdiction to charge a different set. In that case it's two different apples.

710 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:10:02pm

re: #705 yma o hyd

Is that uncle still alive, and where in Wales is he from?

Swansea and he's quite alive. Living in London now.

711 Raven1  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:10:19pm

I'm watching the president on TV right now. I think I am going to be sick. Also, prosecute ALL nazi guards!

712 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:10:22pm

re: #699 Iron Fist

Did you know that you can carry a switchblade in California? The blade has to be less than 2" long, but switch is OK. 2" is enough to do what you've got to do. I've got one I bought for out there specifically. You can't carry a switch here, but legal is under 4". Stay legal. That is something I've tried to do.

////did you know that you can carry a can of carburetor cleaner w/a bic lighter taped to it in New York? (unless of course you have criminal intent) sheeesh.

713 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:10:31pm

re: #707 Dianna

To your last sentence - no, you made no sense.

Your point is getting lost in excess verbiage. If your point is that the trial has not yet been held - you are correct. If your point is that this person somehow "isn't that bad", or "this is excessive", I don't think that will hold up.

It doesn't in my anything but humble opinion.

Let's see what the evidence is. They have to have something to charge him with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder. This guy is dirty and I would like to find out just how dirty.

But, I also remember watching reports back in the 80's about him when they were calling him Ivan the Terrible....that turned out to be false.

714 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:11:33pm

re: #703 bwohlgemuth

That's a good question. They were uniformed officers acting under a national flag. Would the Geneva Convention cover them or were their actions qualify under "Crimes against Humanity" but I really don't want that charge thrown around willy nilly. The last thing I want to "Crimes Against Humanity" turned into the mess of "Hate Crimes". And we know how much restrain prosecutors use in the latter....

It's not even a question.

The camps where not legal period. You can't round up non-combatants like the Germans did, period.

715 robdouth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:11:34pm

re: #382 MandyManners

Was the average citizen employed in the camps?

Was away at lunch so I couldn't respond, but as someone earlier mentioned, some guards may not have participated, or apparently as was stated, refused to participate. Should they be as culpable as an ordinary citizen who knew of the horrors, yet did nothing as well. I knew of the organized and efficient killers used in the death camps, but it stuck in my craw that there should be further culpability. How anyone can take pride in that country after such horrors is something I can't fathom. Perhaps that is what made it so necessary to completely eradicate any former nazi SS, leadership etc., so they could once again love their country, besides it obviously being the correct thing to do.

716 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:11:36pm

I want to comment on direct knowledge of the Holocaust by the general German.

If one were to look at the death camps and the support apparatus assosciated with them, one finds hundreds of thousands of people were "employed" directly running these places. When one expands to the numbers of people running the rails, making poison gas, shipping material to and from the camps, sorting the prisoners, shipping prisoners to their deaths, then numbers go to the millions.

I read a rather detailed study of this based on the German's own meticulous records once.

These are not people who had any way not to know. Millions of people were directly involved in ways that could not allow them not to know.

Now, I will be fair to the average German. I will count some kid shipped off to Stalingrad as much a victim of Hitler as anyone else. However, the scope of the operation is mind boggling.

It should be noted when people say that Jews should forgive and forget, that thsix million were murdered at a time when there were only between ten and twelve million of us in the world. They got around half of us. There is not a single Jew of European descent alive who does not have family in that terrible number.

In my own family history, there was the branch that came to America before the war. We did well thank God and I love this nation. One of the reasons I love it is that my grandparents went back to Europe and killed nazis. However, my Grandparents had many uncles, aunts and cousins in the old country. Of about sixty relatives I know of, four survived the war. They were all resistance fighters who took to the hills. That branch, incidently now lives in Israel.

Yes, justice must be served. No we will not forget.

717 Chip Designer  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:12:07pm

The Dachau camp was in south Germany. This area was conquered by the Americans. It was not on the eastern front.

718 justabill  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:12:15pm

re: #675 Alouette

Just the ones who volunteered before being asked.

May I ask, do you know the difference between someone who applies to do a job he wants and a slave who is coerced?

Playing devlis advocate... A lot of people here are painting with a pretty broad brush. What about a German taxpayer, whos money financed the building of the camp?

719 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:12:17pm

re: #699 Iron Fist

Did you know that you can carry a switchblade in California? The blade has to be less than 2" long, but switch is OK. 2" is enough to do what you've got to do. I've got one I bought for out there specifically. You can't carry a switch here, but legal is under 4". Stay legal. That is something I've tried to do.

Yes and I guess it would be better than nothing.

720 Wilderstad  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:12:19pm

re: #701 Render

I've looked at several holocaust sites in the past including Yad Vashem. Reading the personal stories of survivors gave me and still gives me nightmares on occasion. Heck I can't get through "Hana's Suitcase" without getting upset. This may be the year I introduce that story to my child.

721 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:13:26pm
722 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:15:18pm

re: #721 Iron Fist

Iron Fist: Thank you for responding to my knife issue. Your suggestions are a place to start and that is exactly what I needed.

More OT:

Has anyone seen this shit yet?

Galloway secretly meets with haniyeh

723 Dianna  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:15:33pm

re: #703 bwohlgemuth

That's a good question. They were uniformed officers acting under a national flag. Would the Geneva Convention cover them or were their actions qualify under "Crimes against Humanity" but I really don't want that charge thrown around willy nilly. The last thing I want to "Crimes Against Humanity" turned into the mess of "Hate Crimes". And we know how much restrain prosecutors use in the latter....

Read the damned things, then.

The camps were far, far, far outside any of the Conventions.

724 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:15:39pm

re: #587 Render

Something not generally known about the Waffen SS...

A certain somebody here should take note that the 14th SS and the Belgian Wallonian Legion were the only SS units allowed to have Christian chaplains.

For lunch or breakfast?

725 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:16:18pm

re: #721 Iron Fist

Well, there's an Idea who's time has come...

yeah, and yer footprint is the only thing that ain't carbon :)

726 Rexatosis  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:16:33pm

RE: # 681 Lifeofthemind

The point was to reply to your post and clarify for you my thoughts on Common Law. But if I were going to make a legal point it would be that since the United States has already deported the defendant once for being a Nazi guard and he was found not guilty and was allowed to return to the United States because the reason for his deportation was found to be wanting then is it not at least against the spirit of the "two bites at the apple" principle to re-deport the defendant to face essentially the same charges? I don't think that such an argument will necessarily sway the court but it should at least give it pause to think before it sets precedent that may be applied in ways none of us may agree with.

727 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:17:25pm

re: #717 Chip Designer

Mauthausen-Gusen was in Austria, Ravensbrück was in Northern Germany,
Sachsenhausen is/was located 35k North of Berlin and established in 1938.

728 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:17:28pm

A little more background on this issue.

729 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:17:38pm

re: #722 Creeping Eruption

Iron Fist: Thank you for responding to my knife issue. Your suggestions are a place to start and that is exactly what I needed.

More OT:

Has anyone seen this shit yet?

Galloway secretly meets with haniyeh

What is the difference between Galloway and a pile of shit?

730 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:18:13pm

re: #729 Desert Dog

What is the difference between Galloway and a pile of shit?

None...

731 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:18:35pm

re: #722 Creeping Eruption

"Galloway secretly meets with haniyeh"

kiss and tell all later, oh my!

732 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:18:39pm

re: #730 talon_262

None...

Precisely

733 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:18:45pm

re: #729 Desert Dog

What is the difference between Galloway and a pile of shit?

The size of the pile?

734 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:19:03pm
735 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:19:30pm

re: #729 Desert Dog

Shit can be flushed down the toilet. Galloway-not so much.

736 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:20:09pm

re: #691 hazzyday

Fragile-x, first I have heard of this. Do the teachers understand? Auspergers occurred in my family and the educational system was almost abusive in it's inability to understand. Anyone not in an institution needs specialized and individualized assistance.

They are actually quite good. 5 students, 1 teacher, 2 aides.
He goes to 2 regular classes a day, damn close to mainstreamed. As I say, it is very mild. He can read and write, though it's choppy and a little sloppy.
We're blessed, most kids who have this never hear their kids speak, though I have no misgivings he may be living with us.
$27,000 for a years tuition at a private school so equipped(not including boarding). But we've been pleased with the teachers and aides. They are selfless and knowledgeable.

737 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:20:27pm

re: #735 WriterMom

Shit can be flushed down the toilet. Galloway-not so much.

we need a bigger boat toilet...

738 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:20:38pm

re: #735 WriterMom

Shit can be flushed down the toilet. Galloway-not so much.

I realize I am courting the wrath of stinky, but it depends on how hard you push....

739 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:20:52pm

re: #722 Creeping Eruption

Did you see the LGF thread ("Galloway hands cash to HAMAS"), posted yesterday? Galloway is openly challenging the UK, since Galloway is providing material support for a designated terrorist organization. He should face charges upon his return. (o, there was some imbecilic poster who praised Galloway, btw.)

740 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:21:00pm

re: #729 Desert Dog

What is the difference between Galloway and a pile of shit?

Shit doesn't publicly fund Hamas.

741 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:21:22pm

re: #734 buzzsawmonkey

Sachsenhausen became an extermination camp toward the close of the war, as did the other german proper camps, as the Russians advanced. The SS still had Jews and "others" to dispose of.

742 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:21:45pm

re: #708 buzzsawmonkey

The depth of your knowledge here astounds me. In light of this particular knowledge, about the Nazi machine, I can kind of see where your also astounding sense of humor comes from, or is useful for.
God bless you.

743 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:21:53pm

re: #678 bwohlgemuth

It's a serious question, what were the expected duties of a "camp guard" at a concentration camp. The Nazis were quite organized, there (seriously) should be a list of what expected duties were at the camp. If he went outside of that list....he's open game. He was (admitted) a uniformed part of the army, therefore covered by Geneva Convention (if I am wrong, please explain why).

I am not an expert in international law, hence why I ask these questions and hope for legitimate answers. Yes, I have read many answer to questions similar to mine, and most of them are pretty crappy/vengeful/attack the questioner.

I think you guys are mistaking my "umm...what are you doing?" as "you shouldn't be doing that!".

SS death squad leaders claimed to be lowly "camp guards" when they were captured by Allied forces. Even assuming that they really were lowly "camp guards" these individuals were assigned to make sure that none of the innocent victims was late to the showers or put up a fuss to being exterminated. That is accessory to mass murder at the very least. A lowly "camp guard" would shoot anyone who stepped out of line, was late for roll call, or didn't strip on command.

No one who was part of the nazi killing machine, not even the lowly "camp guards" and harmless "bookkeepers" have any rights under the Geneva conventions. Why should they have? The Geneva conventions were adopted to protect the VICTIMS of these crimes, not the perpetrators.

744 Desert Dog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:21:55pm

re: #739 J.S.

Did you see the LGF thread ("Galloway hands cash to HAMAS"), posted yesterday? Galloway is openly challenging the UK, since Galloway is providing material support for a designated terrorist organization. He should face charges upon his return. (o, there was some imbecilic poster who praised Galloway, btw.)

In other news, Hillary Clinton promises to rebuilt Gaza!

Make room in that commode, got one more coming in!

745 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:22:02pm

re: #739 J.S.

Did you see the LGF thread ("Galloway hands cash to HAMAS"), posted yesterday? Galloway is openly challenging the UK, since Galloway is providing material support for a designated terrorist organization. He should face charges upon his return. (o, there was some imbecilic poster who praised Galloway, btw.)

I did and attempted to show restraint in my comments lest I end up facing the business end of the stick.

746 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:22:06pm

re: #602 SasquatchOnSteroids

I am also the parent of a mentally retarded child. The public system failed him miserably. Just offering my cyber-support to you.

747 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:22:11pm

re: #708 buzzsawmonkey

The death camps were very small; they did not have to house vast numbers of laborers. Very few people survived the actual death camps, and most of the camps themselves were destroyed by the Nazis as the Russian armies advanced.

If Demjanjuk worked at Sobibor, or Chelmno, or one of the other death camps, then his "job description" as a guard was "mass murderer." Period.

I have a hard time lumping everyone into a "mass murderer" category, not because "this person somehow "isn't that bad", or "this is excessive", but as in their role of executions, etc. Simply "being there" is a long way from pulling the trigger or dropping in the Zyklon B in my view. That may not hold up in law (or it may, again not an international law scholar, just someone asking questions).

If he can be proven to be at that camp, and his actions at that camp were more than just "security"; then he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. So far, the German have done little more than put 29,000 names on a document and said he was an accessory to their murders. If they have the entire list of guards, I would hope they would research through their pensioners and pursue them with the same veracity.

748 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:22:34pm

re: #740 FurryOldGuyJeans

Shit doesn't publicly fund Hamas.

touche!

749 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:22:38pm

re: #729 Desert Dog

What is the difference between Galloway and a pile of shit?

You can flush a pile of shit.

750 Steve  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:23:04pm

re: #729 Desert Dog

What is the difference between Galloway and a pile of shit?

One is alive ant the other one just stinks. Will try to figure out which is which.

751 yma o hyd  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:23:21pm

re: #716 ludwigvanquixote

A million updings for you!
And no - it must not be forgotten - ever!

752 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:24:34pm

re: #744 Desert Dog

In other news, Hillary Clinton promises to rebuilt Gaza!

Make room in that commode, got one more coming in!

I don't think I can stay in the US for the entire 0bama administration, and let my tax money (and more of it taken) go to terrorists who want to kill my fellow Jews.

753 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:24:39pm

re: #731 Kostya Lotz

"Galloway secretly meets with haniyeh"

kiss and tell all later, oh my!


Target rich environment...

754 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:25:19pm

re: #746 WriterMom

I am also the parent of a mentally retarded child. The public system failed him miserably. Just offering my cyber-support to you.

And mine to you, WM.
It doesn't hurt that my wife was a social worker before she went back to school. She knows things....

755 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:25:52pm

re: #731 Kostya Lotz

More like Galloway secretly MATES with Hanineyeh.

756 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:26:00pm
757 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:26:39pm

re: #754 SasquatchOnSteroids

Good that she knows "things". I bet she' a super awesome Mamma Bear and nobody dares f&ck around with her, or your kid.

758 lostlakehiker  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:27:26pm

re: #98 Myrddin Emrys

I write slowly and besides, they all say the same thing: "It is right" or "He has to pay for what he has done" and so on and so forth. I have yet to see a reasoned argument thrown my way

I suppose you figure that "justice" is just a word, and that seeking justice when there is no practical benefit to public safety is irrational and vindictive.

Try this: a culturally normative determination to exact justice, cost what it will and whether the wrongdoer is in any position to do you further harm, is evolutionarily adaptive. Someone else may be contemplating injuring your society. They're thinking, maybe I can do it, and then lay low, and eventually the fuss will blow over. And they have no moral compass. They won't accept moral reasons for why they should or shouldn't do something. But they see this guy hauled into court 60 years later and they think,

Man, they never give up. It won't blow over.

And they play it safe and don't attack you. Your society, with the genes it carries for how to think about justice, is spared a hit.

It's always difficult reasoning about punishment with people who demand an explanation that makes no claim for the "rightness" of justice. But OK. You wanted an explanation of what the point is of pursuing justice for the sake of justice. You got it.

759 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:27:33pm

re: #450 MJ

Jedwabne

Just seeing the name makes me shudder.

760 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:27:33pm

re: #747 bwohlgemuth

I have a hard time lumping everyone into a "mass murderer" category, not because "this person somehow "isn't that bad", or "this is excessive", but as in their role of executions, etc. Simply "being there" is a long way from pulling the trigger or dropping in the Zyklon B in my view. That may not hold up in law (or it may, again not an international law scholar, just someone asking questions).

If he can be proven to be at that camp, and his actions at that camp were more than just "security"; then he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. So far, the German have done little more than put 29,000 names on a document and said he was an accessory to their murders. If they have the entire list of guards, I would hope they would research through their pensioners and pursue them with the same veracity.

Every willing volunteer in the nazi death machine should be prosecuted. Shooting a prisoner or a whole bunch of random prisoners was not above the pay grade of a "lowly camp guard." No "lowly camp guard" ever said, "oh wait, I can't shoot them, that's above my pay grade, let's wait for the specially trained SS death squads to get here."

761 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:27:38pm

re: #753 ludwigvanquixote

Target rich environment...

[deleted]

762 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:27:44pm

re: #744 Desert Dog

In other news, Hillary Clinton promises to rebuilt Gaza!

Make room in that commode, got one more coming in!


Still waiting for the 500,000 jobs she promised NY.

763 NY Nana  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:28:04pm

That he lived to 88 without getting what he has coming to him? I just hope that he will be executed. I do not expect it, though.

Why is he still alive, and how could the USA have let him live among us in Cleveland? Damn him. I would happily watch him be executed.

I remember this case all too well. I guess the Germans will say he is just too old to execute. They didn't feel that way about the Jews they martyred...and the babies and toddlers who they would grab out of their Mothers' arms and then bash their heads open against a wall.

What would the martyred have become? What might they have done to make the world a better place? We will never know.....

/Yes, I know he was just doing his job.

764 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:28:12pm

re: #757 WriterMom

Good that she knows "things". I bet she' a super awesome Mamma Bear and nobody dares f&ck around with her, or your kid.

She can be.....relentless.

Gotta get, you take care.

765 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:28:45pm

re: #747 bwohlgemuth

I have a hard time lumping everyone into a "mass murderer" category, not because "this person somehow "isn't that bad", or "this is excessive", but as in their role of executions, etc. Simply "being there" is a long way from pulling the trigger or dropping in the Zyklon B in my view. That may not hold up in law (or it may, again not an international law scholar, just someone asking questions).

If he can be proven to be at that camp, and his actions at that camp were more than just "security"; then he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. So far, the German have done little more than put 29,000 names on a document and said he was an accessory to their murders. If they have the entire list of guards, I would hope they would research through their pensioners and pursue them with the same veracity.


Are you insane? Even in the nicest possible case, "security" means confining people in a trap that will kill them. Security literally means penning people up to be killed. That is called murder. That is called being a part of the murder.

Thought experiment.... If bad guy X knowingly locks someone in a room and makes certain they can not escape until bad guy Y murders them,
what is the charge against bad guy X?

You are being dense.

766 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:29:32pm

I respectfully suggest that it is impossible to have a real conversation with the individuals here who have an issue with the pursuit of justice with respect to elderly Nazis.

767 J.S.  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:29:41pm

re: #747 bwohlgemuth

hmmm....do you have a clue about how a t-r-i-a-l works? or are you somehow confused on this particular point?

768 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:29:50pm

re: #713 Desert Dog

Let's see what the evidence is. They have to have something to charge him with 29,000 counts of accessory to murder. This guy is dirty and I would like to find out just how dirty.

But, I also remember watching reports back in the 80's about him when they were calling him Ivan the Terrible....that turned out to be false.

That's because he turned out to be not "Ivan the Terrible" but "Ivan the Other Mass Murderer."

769 NY Nana  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:31:38pm

Here is a list of the 'camps'.

770 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:31:57pm

re: #763 NY Nana

That he lived to 88 without getting what he has coming to him? I just hope that he will be executed. I do not expect it, though.

Why is he still alive, and how could the USA have let him live among us in Cleveland? Damn him. I would happily watch him be executed.

I remember this case all too well. I guess the Germans will say he is just too old to execute. They didn't feel that way about the Jews they martyred...and the babies and toddlers who they would grab out of their Mothers' arms and then bash their heads open against a wall.

What would the martyred have become? What might they have done to make the world a better place? We will never know.....

/Yes, I know he was just doing his job.


We say the answer to this in psalms... When evil people prosper in this world it is only becuase they will get full justice in the next.

771 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:33:02pm

re: #38 Myrddin Emrys

Yeah, I'm serious. Tell me, seriously, what good does prosecuting an 88 year old for crimes committed over 60 years ago do? It's not like he's been involved in wrongdoing since then, and any victim who is still holding a grudge after all this time isn't going to find "closure" from this.

I gave your comments the benefit of the doubt until I got to this one. My initial thoughts were that the legal costs of formulating 29,000 counts of murder were extravagent when ONLY ONE would be necessary to convict this bastard and send to prison for the rest of his natural life. Justice must be done. Every single soul lost, Jewish and others, at the hands of the Nazis, counts. Every death carries a life sentence. The idea that 29,000 counts somehow makes this man more of monster than one who threw even one person into a gas oven simple plays to our emotions. There is a law firm somewhere that has made a shit load of money out of this.

Too old to charged and convicted? Crap. Do the crime, do the time. And where do you draw the line? 87? maybe 86? Why not 80 or 70, why heck, why not just let him off aye? ///

772 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:33:16pm
773 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:33:31pm
774 Rexatosis  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:34:07pm

RE: #709 JCM

Good point to be raised. Usually the different jurisdictions would charge for different crimes. A bank robber robs a bank in state A, flees to state B and shoots a state B cop. State A charges the robber with bank robbery, the feds charge the robber with the illegal transportation of of firearms/money/whatever across state lines, state B charges the robber with assault on an officer of the law with the intent to kill. The jurisdictions each charge and prosecute specific adn distinct crimes under their jurisdiction but they do not duplicate each other, this has been the historical norm under US common law. However recently (the last 40 years) there has been a more common trend for the feds to essentially recharge for the same crime under the guise of "civil rights." This was done due to the problem of jury nullification that was epidemic in the South during the Civil Rights struggle. The use of Federal Sovereignty for a "second bite at the apple" came into being to address a specific historical problem and is now becoming more and more prevalent.

775 WriterMom  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:35:03pm

re: #773 buzzsawmonkey

Correct. Batallion 101 comes to mind.

776 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:36:15pm

re: #756 buzzsawmonkey

In the end there was barely enough time to build crematoriums. Mostly open trench, machine guns and petrol., when fuel became an extreme commodity, out right bulldozing was the standing order, dead or alive.

777 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:38:42pm
778 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:40:23pm

re: #777 buzzsawmonkey

In the technical sense, you are correct. But make no mistake, once entered, none where to leave alive.

779 Dianna  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:41:39pm

re: #747 bwohlgemuth

Why do you keep using "veracity"?

You mean "ferocity."

780 Kostya Lotz  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:42:55pm

re: #779 Dianna

unless he's challenging your argument.

781 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:43:16pm

re: #743 Alouette

The Nuremburg (sp?) trials established that the defence of "I was only following orders" was not a defence.

782 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:44:10pm

re: #755 WriterMom

More like Galloway secretly MATES with Hanineyeh.


Oh, please, now you have ruined my appetite..........

783 NY Nana  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:44:32pm

re: #770 ludwigvanquixote

We say the answer to this in psalms... When evil people prosper in this world it is only becuase they will get full justice in the next.

Beautifully said....I have a photo album that belonged to my paternal Grandmother zt"l.....sadly she did not write any names to go with the pictures. Suffice it to say that and mail she sent after the War came back 'Addressee Unknown', and she never heard a word. Nor did my maternal Grandmother zt"l...

I am blessed to be second generation American. I grew up during WWII, and will never forgive and never forget. Never.

784 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:46:22pm

re: #781 A Kiwi Infidel

The Nuremburg (sp?) trials established that the defence of "I was only following orders" was not a defence.

If you want an older legal code to rebut that defence, consider:

Evil has no messenger.

If a wicked king commands you to do an evil act, he has the act on his head for the order, but you have it on yours for the crime because you knew it was evil and did it anyway.

785 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:49:25pm

Well, since none of this is being taught, or even mentioned, & probably even denied by our public school system, what to do? what to do?

786 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:51:07pm

re: #784 ludwigvanquixote

If you want an older legal code to rebut that defence, consider:

Evil has no messenger.

If a wicked king commands you to do an evil act, he has the act on his head for the order, but you have it on yours for the crime because you knew it was evil and did it anyway.


Indeed. We all have a choice. As difficult as it may be, we can still refuse the order to kill, even at the cost of our own life.

787 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:52:00pm

re: #783 NY Nana

Beautifully said....I have a photo album that belonged to my paternal Grandmother zt"l.....sadly she did not write any names to go with the pictures. Suffice it to say that and mail she sent after the War came back 'Addressee Unknown', and she never heard a word. Nor did my maternal Grandmother zt"l...

I am blessed to be second generation American. I grew up during WWII, and will never forgive and never forget. Never.

Awww shucks ma'am, I didn't say it, Moshe Rabbenu did...

But it does give me comfort. Not to think that evil will be punished, but rather, more deeply, that justice exists and there really is a reason for things.

The hardest part of faith is believing that somehow it all makes sense.

There was a Jew from Spain who fled the Inquisition. His family had been killed. He had barely escaped with his life when the people who gave him passage out of Spain dumped him on a little island.

He got off of the island - which is how we have the story.

He wrote a prayer there. It went:

"Dear Hashem, no matter how much you try to convince me that you do not care, no matter how much you try to convince me that evil rules the world, no matter how much watch me broken - I will defy you and still believe in you."

788 NY Nana  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:52:34pm

re: #17 Walter L. Newton

Thanks, Walter. This about says it re that POS:

Myrddin Emrys
Karma: -365
Registered since: Dec 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 49
No. of links posted: 0

789 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 1:53:52pm

re: #406 Killgore Trout

RawStory is usually pretty reliable.....
Report: Slain US Nazi hated Obama, had parts for 'dirty bomb'

Yeah, that story is pretty "raw" alright. They identify the jerk as a "conservative", which is pretty specious, and then they suggest that depleted uranium could be used in a dirty bomb. Depleted uranium simply is not all that radioactive, and unless it were to be ground to a fine powder, it would not disperse well in an explosion in any event. I can think of a couple of other radioisotopes that would be much more effective for use in a dirty bomb, but there's no point in naming them here.

790 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:01:12pm

re: #789 re: #789 Alberta Oil Peon

Depleted uranium is what we make anti tank rounds from, no?

791 Dianna  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:01:29pm

re: #780 Kostya Lotz

unless he's challenging your argument.

I've been studiously ignored, though my replies have been incorporated into his replies to others.

Interesting.

792 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:05:29pm

re: #174 yma o hyd

Sorry I missed your reply earlier. Yes, banality is the exact word to use for them.

793 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:05:36pm

re: #790 brookly red

Depleted uranium is what we make anti tank rounds from, no?

Si - the A-10 is a big user.

794 brookly red  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:10:56pm

re: #793 Bobibutu

Si - the A-10 is a big user.

and I assume that Warthog drivers are pretty much conservatives... so I guess that site inferring that conservatives with DU = anti gov. dirty bombs is kinda bogus no?

795 Bob Dillon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:18:37pm

re: #794 brookly red

and I assume that Warthog drivers are pretty much conservatives... so I guess that site inferring that conservatives with DU = anti gov. dirty bombs is kinda bogus no?

I don't know. Have you listened to the interview with Belfast Police Chief Jeffrey Trafton embedded in the story?

796 nyc redneck  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:20:41pm

re: #766 WriterMom

I respectfully suggest that it is impossible to have a real conversation with the individuals here who have an issue with the pursuit of justice with respect to elderly Nazis.

i agree completely.
his son says he is too ill to stand trial.
it's almost laughable.
if he is the vicious person he is accused being,
i'm sure at his trial we will NOT see evidence of HIS consideration of the elderly and infirm that were marched to their deaths.
quite the contrary. these thugs were monsters.
he needs to answer these charges,
his age and health are irrelevant.

797 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:22:07pm

re: #603 Nevergiveup

There were plenty SS combat troops on both fronts. And they were viscous.

Sturmbannfuhrer Molasses was one of the most viscous of the lot.

798 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:26:25pm

re: #773 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, Goldhagen, in "Hitler's Willing Executioners," documents that no soldier was ever disciplined for refusing to kill Jews--and, unbelievably enough, some few actually did refuse. He also documents that many avidly volunteered for the task.

In other words, "just under orders, just doing my job" doesn't wash.


I never knew that. Thanks Buzzsaw, that puts a whole new slant on it. No excuses for old Nazis!

799 Render  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:28:44pm

If John Demjanjuk was in fact and by his own admission a member of the 14th Waffen SS then he was at the Poniatowa SS work camp.

-No further questions.

===

Depleted Uranium actually has less radioactivity then common lead. Hence the "depleted" part of the name. DU is no more or less toxic then lead.

Groups attempting to ban DU ammo almost never mention that the Russians were the first to use it both as ammo and armor, and still do to this day.

KILL
THEM
ALL,
R

800 jcm  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:31:27pm

re: #794 brookly red

and I assume that Warthog drivers are pretty much conservatives... so I guess that site inferring that conservatives with DU = anti gov. dirty bombs is kinda bogus no?

The main hazard from DU is not radiological, its that it's a heavy metal. The hazard is toxic more that radiological.

DU in a dirty bomb would set off radiological monitoring equipment. I took radiological incidents course and the sensitivity of the equipment will hit on very low count materials.

Once the radiological equipment picks that up, the "dirty bomb" panic in the MSM will set in regardless of actual radiological hazard.

801 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:40:12pm

re: #703 bwohlgemuth

That's a good question. They were uniformed officers acting under a national flag.

The Geneva Conventions were adopted in 1948 and have no relevance to nazi war crimes except they were supposed to prevent them from happening again.

So what if they wore uniforms while mass murdering random innocents? How does that mitigate mass murder?

You are not making any fucking sense at all.

802 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:41:43pm

re: #664 bwohlgemuth

OK, bring forward the eyewitnesses. Let's prosecute him for crimes outside of the Geneva Convention.... But let's stick to what we're supposed to do, which is limited by international law, customs, and treaty.

This guy (literally) wasn't Ivan the Terrible. If he acted outside of his duties (as prescribed in the Geneva Convention), then I have no problem with this prosecution. 29,000 counts you have to admit is a bit of grandstanding by the prosecution.

I would like to see the German attack every SS officer with the same veracity...don't think that will happen however. And the people attacking myself and others for raising those question should ask that of themselves (crap, does that make sense?)

You stupid git. The Geneva Conventions (note the plural!) do not apply. This guy was not a guard at a Stalag (P.O.W. camp), he was (allegedly) a guard at Nazi death camp. Big difference.

Attacking with "veracity"? I don't think you made the right choice of words there. "Veracity" means truth, and one would hope that truth comes out in all these prosecutions. I think the word you were looking for is "alacrity."

Myself, I have reservations about the Demjanjuk case, based mainly on questions of identity, but if he is in fact guilty, I have no problem at all with him getting the maximum penalty.

803 Wendya  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:44:15pm

re: #19 zombie

Not that I support any mass-murdering Nazi guard, but what "puzzles" me is the way so much energy is focused specifcially on Demjanjuk by Germany, when their entire country has for decades been home to thousands -- tens of thousands, more likely -- former guards like Demjanjuk, and they were never prosecuted. What gives?

Not only that but German citizens who were complicit in Nazi atrocities and had no problem turning over their Jewish neighbors and then pillaging their apartments. There is a whole lot of guilt to spread around and not just in Germany so I'm not particularly impressed by this type of posturing.

804 Ateam  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 2:44:22pm

We never had grand/mothers/fathers in our childhood, nor uncles, cousins, and other relatives. From two tribes, about 70 people each - only our parents survive (separately) and get equated coincidently on the ship board heading Israel.

With all due respect to justice, punishing this monstrous figure, etc, hollow actions regarding the far past don't deal with more important issues of now & near future. Iranian nukes, for example. Europe lefties combined together with Islamic radicals. Hated towards freedom & liberty USA's like.

F**k the Demjanjuks of the world. Anyway they r extinguishing few old bastards spices. Let's face the real & obvious enemies.

805 Olderthandirt  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 3:20:36pm

If Demjanjuk were 107 and on his death bed, the old Nazi should be deported. Actually, my preferred punishment for him involves a rope tied into a hangman's knot and slipped around his neck, which was allowed to grow thick while his prisoners died.

806 Obsidiandog  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 4:22:15pm

Apparently the only thing the U.S. has on him were some false statements on his emigration papers after the war. Nobody knows who or where he was or what he was doing. Somebody says he was here, somebody else says he was there. It looks to me like he is being scapegoated. He has been high profile for 30 years yet no one has been able to pin anything on him that will stick, just a lot of conjecture. If the Israeli court couldn't convict him, nobody could. What happened to the presumption of innocence? He's pretty much the "last" of the "concentration camp guards"(that's still not clear) still alive so it looks like somebody wants a scalp. If there were any tangible proof, it would have been uncovered by now but so much of what happened back then has been lost to history.

807 vagabond trader  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 5:04:44pm

I know this is a DT, but just watched a Law and Order rerun on TNT based on this guy. With the usual L&O twists and turns. He was convicted of murdering an elderly Jewish woman who ID'd him as a murdering death camp guard.Cosmic?

808 Cygnus  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 5:20:57pm

re: #40 Myrddin Emrys

but why?

My spidey-sense is picking up a troll:

Karma: -486
Registered since: Dec 31, 2006 at 5:02 pm
No. of comments posted: 49
No. of links posted: 0

809 bwohlgemuth  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 5:43:29pm

re: #808 Cygnus

My spidey-sense is picking up a troll:

Hell, I was just trying to ask a legitimate question and my karma went in the tank pretty quickly. Once again, like zombie, wendya, and many others have asked; why the interest in one guy that was already falsely accused of being "Ivan the Terrible". I would think the German government would have something more than "accessory to murder" to go after someone like this...

810 right_on_target  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 6:09:08pm

The reason why Germany is pursuing prosecution for Demjanjuk is because recently THOUSANDS of wartime records have been opened and researched. Maybe there is NEW (as not uncovered yet) evidence. That would explain a bit.

811 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 6:13:31pm

re: #151 FurryOldGuyJeans

I saw that column earlier and had to laugh at her total cluelessness about O. Her "defense" turned out to be a superb indictment of the man's complete lack of understanding and knowledge.

Paglia doesn't think in terms, of, well, real life. If she likes Obama it is because he represents something cool to her, not because she agrees with his opinions or thinks he will pursue good policies.

She's a frighteningly unpleasant woman who's made a career out of being 'edgy'.

812 bungie  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 6:14:45pm

About 20 years ago I was given a beautiful vase by a elderly German woman in her '80s who had lived a comfortable upper middle class life in Germany in the 30's and 40's during the war. The vase had been in her family from before the war which meant it was sitting on someone's shelf in Germany during WWII.

After she left my mother, my mother in law and I sat around drinking coffee and looking at the vase. We started talking about how it gave us the creeps and it was sitting in a beautiful house while they were exterminating people in ovens down the road.

We took a couple of hammers and cover it with newspaper and took turns hammering it to smithereens.

I know this is odd. But somehow we felt better. It didn't do anything really but that's what we did. It was also a bonding moment for the three of us.

813 big L  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 6:20:48pm

There was one near me. His family never changed their name.They spent adult life-times trying to prove it wasn't their father. He was in another country during the war but a Nazi satellite. Served in the govt there in Security apparratus I think.
Even tho he had alzheimers, he was arrested and placed under "hospital-arrest" iirc. Yes even at 80-something...
Supposedly he had a jar full of eye-balls on his desk from the resistance and the other victims.of the regime. I have forgotten his name.

814 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 6:28:16pm

Genocide in the 20th Century It can still happen.

There is a line drawn. On the one side are the guilty who failed to make the correct choice. The crime has been deemed horrible enough that the perpetrators of it are to be given no shelter in their lifetime. This has a moral lesson in it for humanity. That people should balk when faced with the choice of committing genocide.

In this particular case there some some serious errors by governments and pursuing parties. He was to be tried as Ivan the Terrible in Israel. He was convicted there, sentenced to hang, but the prosecutor eventually determined it was a case of mistaken identity. To the credit of Israeli justice they revoked his sentence, even though he appears to have been associated with another extermination camp as a guard. And it is considered that these types of guards were the worst even though he was conscripted by the Nazi's after having been interned in their prison camps.

It is interesting that James Trafficant and Pat Buchanan took up his defense.

60 minutes recently did an expose on Eye Witness testimony and how unreliable it is. And this did worry several of the prosecutors.

Ones gets the feeling that this guy is guilty, never atoned for his crimes, but there isn't enough evidence to convict him of anything. The efforts by Germany and Spain to extradite and convict him under their legal systems should have their integrity judged by the same group of judges in the US that deplored the way the Justice department mishandled their case with this guy.

815 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 6:36:24pm

re: #810 right_on_target

The reason why Germany is pursuing prosecution for Demjanjuk is because recently THOUSANDS of wartime records have been opened and researched. Maybe there is NEW (as not uncovered yet) evidence. That would explain a bit.

That sounds correct. After the Soviet Union fell their previously hidden records were opened up. I haven't seen which records and where they are. It is an interesting read. Governments though are having a bad track record in document handling.

Buzzsawmonkey's note that there were extermination camps and labor camps is new to me. And the allies never liberated any of the extermination camps. These were run over by the Russians and there was one the Nazi's failed to remove gruesome evidence of before they retreated. Some of this type of guard who returned to the Soviet Union were executed. The one that was the Demjanjuk co guard was sent to Siberia for 25 years, released after 8.

816 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 6:54:51pm

Recent release of concentration camp records.

817 acacia  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 7:00:03pm

Being from Cleveland, I know this case all too well. There is no question that he was rightfully exonerated for the Treblinka/Ivan charge. That one was completely baseless. Less clear is whether he was or was not at Sobibor. He was a POW from the Ukraine after the invasion and "volunteered" to become a guard. I assume death was the only other logical alternative. He became a guard and probably given training at Trawniki. What he did there is unknown. After that it is impossible to say what happened. The thing of it is that many Ukrainians/Soviets/White Russians/Slavs, whatever, hated that the Germans invaded but weren't all that upset with the Jewish "cleansing" operation. Many would gladly round up Jews for the Germans. The reason that we know so little about the mass exterminations in the USSR is that it happened so quickly and was carried out by the Wehrmacht as they were marching through the country. They just shot all the Jews on the spot - no need to congregate them and then ship them to concentration/death camps. Sadly this could only happen when so many civilians - even conquered civilians - were eager accomplices. The question is whether Demanyuk was one of the anti-Semites who volunteered to kill Jews and did so or if he was a nobody simply trying to survive. Even the latter though deserves some punishment. Even if you didn't kill but were a part of the system, however involuntarily, you need some punishment - what punishment depends on the facts. If you're an Ivan the terrible type guard or other eager anti-Semite Jew killer you deserve death. Demanyuk claims he did nothing during the war after he was captured. This is a bit hard to believe given the evidence. The problem is the evidence just isn't clear as to what he did. A very tough case.

818 RebelDebater  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 7:04:39pm

re: #98 Myrddin Emrys

You need a reasoned argument to make you stop being ****? No problem.
The number of years since a crime is rather irrelevant. The fact that someone breaks the law on such a massive scale requires punishment in order to ensure deterrence in the future. If this man goes unpunished, it basically means genocide is okay. In this case we are punishing him not only to uphold the letter of the law, but also the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law is to protect human rights and deter activities which infringe upon them. Ignoring crimes on this massive a scale is just inviting things like this to happen again. By not punishing the crime, you effectively legitimize this mans crimes.

819 RebelDebater  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 7:06:44pm

A2: Just doing my job

This argument is retarded. Drug dealers bustin' up someone that owes money to them are just doing their job too. Their job was about as legit as any1 employed under the Nazi regime. Whether you're "doing the job" or not, law is law and must be upheld.

820 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 7:23:58pm
During the trial, a now-repentant Hans Frank, the former Nazi Governor of Poland declared: "A thousand years will pass and the guilt of the Germany will not be erased."

Re reading the Holocaust histories it is eerie how close the Nazi sentiments of that day are repeated almost Verbatim by Hamas members and Saudi cleric. And how today the media still fails to recognize this threat.

821 So?  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 7:32:25pm

88 fucking years old... this should have be done 50 years ago! It means dick now.
95% of the survivors are dead. They should have been the ones to hear this news. It's nothing but an old worn out stinking headline now.

822 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 7:33:37pm

re: #19 zombie

zombie -

"Overcast/Paperclip" was meant to GRAB Rocket Scientists, Aerodynamicists and "such like" - not Concentration Camp Guards. The Germans welcomed them back as "veterans." The Allied Nations never did. This is the cause of the Demanjuk situation. Ivan, "The Not So Terrible" had a misspent youth to say the least.

-S-

823 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 7:45:28pm

re: #820 hazzyday

Re reading the Holocaust histories it is eerie how close the Nazi sentiments of that day are repeated almost Verbatim by Hamas members and Saudi cleric. And how today the media still fails to recognize this threat.

hazzyday -

Hans Frank was a lawyer, Pre-Third-Reich. Herr Frank was an Opportunist to the extent that he went along with, supported, and was advanced by the NAZI Regime. Defeat brought him humility and a willingness to to "tell it like it was." Certainly, nothing else would have.

-S-

824 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 8:49:13pm

re: #206 Iron Fist

If you want to read on the "Religion" of the Third Reich, it is covered well in Scheirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I don't remember the number of the Chapter, but it is towards the middle of the book. It is a section called The New Order. It covers everything about the unholy Nazi "faith". It was not, even in the faintest way, a "Christian" religion.

You should read Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. In there, you will find that 85% of the ordinary Germans - the kind of folks who carried out the Final Solution day by day - were professing Christians, and that in 1941 that Hitler himself remarked to his chief of staff, Gerhard Engel, that he would always remain a committed Catholic (the very first treaty that the Third Reich signed was a concordate with the Holy See). The roots of antisemitism ran deep in german culture and society, not only from the catholic side, but also from the Protestant side; it was, after all, the german Martin Luther, founder of Protestantism, who published the book On the Jews and Their Lies.

825 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 9:23:03pm

re: #824 Salamantis

You should read Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. In there, you will find that 85% of the ordinary Germans - the kind of folks who carried out the Final Solution day by day - were professing Christians, and that in 1941 that Hitler himself remarked to his chief of staff, Gerhard Engel, that he would always remain a committed Catholic (the very first treaty that the Third Reich signed was a concordate with the Holy See). The roots of antisemitism ran deep in german culture and society, not only from the catholic side, but also from the Protestant side; it was, after all, the german Martin Luther, founder of Protestantism, who published the book On the Jews and Their Lies.

Within the scope of your reply here it pertains more to human nature then to a particular religion. It could have just as easily been a Germany of cheese worshippers and the results given every thing else would have been the same. Given: the nature of the cultures in the area had a lot of anti semitism. Hitler sought to expunge these religions and built a totalitarian society in which dissent was not easy to do. Religion performed it's normal roll and helped the average person survive trying times.

826 Salamantis  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 9:31:07pm

re: #825 hazzyday

Within the scope of your reply here it pertains more to human nature then to a particular religion. It could have just as easily been a Germany of cheese worshippers and the results given every thing else would have been the same. Given: the nature of the cultures in the area had a lot of anti semitism. Hitler sought to expunge these religions and built a totalitarian society in which dissent was not easy to do. Religion performed it's normal roll and helped the average person survive trying times.

I do not hold any but the Third Reich German Christians who were actually invoved responsible for complicity in the Holocaust. But I will also not whitewash their involvement in it.

827 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 9:50:12pm

Thinking games most anyone of us could be controlled into being a willing executioner. What positives separates those who do from those who don't?

1. luck
2. Incarnational experience (if you have that belief)
3. Relationship to a higher being
4. Adherence to a moral code.

Karma, the fear of knowing sin, clarity all reinforce the good decision. Human nature though makes people moving those directions islands in the sea of humanity. War and violence do make people realize the value of their absence. But it is in their absence that the heart grows fonder and forget slights. the more people that come to reinforce the good decision the less war there will be.

Once someone crosses that genocide/torture line, their character needs to be judged. It becomes hard to go back.

With that being said, we do have to have a boundary of violence as long as the world is violent.

828 hazzyday  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 10:09:04pm

re: #826 Salamantis

I do not hold any but the Third Reich German Christians who were actually invoved responsible for complicity in the Holocaust. But I will also not whitewash their involvement in it.

When I look at the genocides in the 20th century a common denominator seems to be that no one believes that they are happening when they are in progress. A few do. But the rest of the world seems to ignore them until the horror appears later. I don't see a Christian connection there at all. Christians were involved in the Holocaust. Christianity in it's historical progress was not a causative factor in the rise of the third reich or the creation of the Holocaust anymore than Darwinism. These genocides all seem to be caused by twisted people who brutalized their way to power and created totalitarian systems to exorcise their demons. I have always viewed it as evil, and the descendants of the Judeo-Christian movements as represented by the United States and Great Britain that brought down the evil.

It well may be that Hitler's persecution of Jews had roots in his religious upbringing which was Christian. But I think he exceeded those views and saw himself as larger than God. He then exploited Christianity, Paganism, and Science to create his state of control. He would have created a pope for himself if he were to have had the need to conquer in the name of a Christian God. He went some other direction in a highly controlled state.

I think the framers of the United States had insight into all this and created a system of freedoms to counter these types of despotic imbalances. No thanks to any modern democrats though.

829 Colonel Panik  Wed, Mar 11, 2009 11:06:42pm

re: #813 big L

There was one near me. His family never changed their name.They spent adult life-times trying to prove it wasn't their father. He was in another country during the war but a Nazi satellite. Served in the govt there in Security apparratus I think.
Even tho he had alzheimers, he was arrested and placed under "hospital-arrest" iirc. Yes even at 80-something...
Supposedly he had a jar full of eye-balls on his desk from the resistance and the other victims.of the regime. I have forgotten his name.

Andrija Artukovic, Interior Minister of Fascist Croatia, aka the "Himmler of the Balkans"?

830 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 3:46:54am

re: #828 hazzyday

When I look at the genocides in the 20th century a common denominator seems to be that no one believes that they are happening when they are in progress. A few do. But the rest of the world seems to ignore them until the horror appears later. I don't see a Christian connection there at all. Christians were involved in the Holocaust. Christianity in it's historical progress was not a causative factor in the rise of the third reich or the creation of the Holocaust anymore than Darwinism. These genocides all seem to be caused by twisted people who brutalized their way to power and created totalitarian systems to exorcise their demons. I have always viewed it as evil, and the descendants of the Judeo-Christian movements as represented by the United States and Great Britain that brought down the evil.

It well may be that Hitler's persecution of Jews had roots in his religious upbringing which was Christian. But I think he exceeded those views and saw himself as larger than God. He then exploited Christianity, Paganism, and Science to create his state of control. He would have created a pope for himself if he were to have had the need to conquer in the name of a Christian God. He went some other direction in a highly controlled state.

I think the framers of the United States had insight into all this and created a system of freedoms to counter these types of despotic imbalances. No thanks to any modern democrats though.

You miss the point entirely. Hitler gave the orders, but he didn't kill all of the slaughtered Jews personally. No, that took a whole bunch of workaday Germans, with a whole bunch of others aware of what was being done. And we are talking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Gernams who either participated or knew.

Sure, Hitler used what was there to be used. But what was there to be used was centuries of historically ingrained Christian antisemitism. And those who acquiesced or participated in the massacre allowed themselves to be so used. They chose.

And "I was just following orders" is no better an excuse for them than it was for those convicted at Nuremberg.

831 Kenneth  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:57:24am

re: #828 hazzyday

"It well may be that Hitler's persecution of Jews had roots in his religious upbringing which was Christian. But I think he exceeded those views and saw himself as larger than God. He then exploited Christianity, Paganism, and Science to create his state of control."

You are wrong on two points.

The Nazi Antisemitism was based upon race, not religion. However, they exploited a pre-existing Antisemitism that flourished in Central & Eastern Europe which was based upon religious prejudice.

Nazism couched their racial theories in the language of science, but their was nothing scientific about them. Hitler did not use Christianity, Paganism, or Science to establish state control; he used propaganda, brute force & terror to do that.

832 Sabnen  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 6:58:00am

re: #817 acacia

I grew up in Cleveland and am also all to familiar with this story. Lots of commenter's here seem to know perfectly well how guilty he is, but I think you have it about right. Guilty of what? He seems definitely not to be Ivan the Terrible, but what he did hasn't been well documented. Any documents from the Russians is dubious because they have had it in for any German collaborators during WW II. Remember, lots and lots of Ukrainians sided with the Germans against the Russians after Stalin collectivized and killed 2 million of their countrymen before the war . . . the Germans were the lesser of two evils? Like you said this is a tough case.

833 Kenneth  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:00:18am

re: #830 Salamantis

You are quite right to point out that the German people were well aware of the genocide being carried out by the Nazis. even those not directly involved knew what was happening. It is a lie that they did not know the truth.

834 Kenneth  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:09:35am

re: #824 Salamantis

In his book The War of the World, Niall Ferguson looks at the demographics of the Nazis. Lapsed or non-practicing Protestants made up the largest religious block among Nazis, Catholics were less likely to join. Interestingly, university students & graduates were especially drawn to the Nazis: lawyers, accountants, engineers, doctors, journalists, & writers. They were enthralled with the pseudo-intellectual patina of Nazism. The peasants and working class laborers were less interested in the Nazis than the shopkeepers and office clerks.

835 Kenneth  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:13:55am

re: #814 hazzyday

Your link missed a couple of genocides: Darfur and the Ottoman genocide against the Pontic Greeks.

836 Kenneth  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:18:37am

re: #598 Kosh's Shadow

And the actor who played Col. Klink, Werner Klemperer, was Jewish.


Klemperer received significant notice for his role in the award winning 1961 film Judgment at Nuremberg. The film presents a fictionalized account of the post-World War II Nuremberg Trials, with Klemperer portraying Emil Hahn, a Nazi judge and one of the defendants at the trial. He played the title role in the film Operation Eichmann.
837 eaglewingz08  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 8:21:51am

So Demjanjuk gets 29,000 counts of conspiracy/assisting murder, but Madoff only gets 12 counts of fraud? Is something wrong here? I think Bernie defrauded more than 12 people and engaged in more than a dozen schemes.
Also, if I were a prosecutor is New York (state) or in any other state where Bernie's victims lived, I would be presenting evidence to a Grand Jury just to ensure that if Bernie somehow lived past his federal sentencing, there'd be state sentences he'd have to serve afterwards.

838 P. Aaron  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:11:38am

John Demjanjuk had similar charges overturned by an Israeli court in 1983. I was surprised.

If the guy did any of the things he's charged with, then let the evidence prove it, but he's was tried before in a more than hostile environment and accquitted.

839 OrtegaGasset  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:40:36am

re: #817 acacia

Being from Cleveland, I know this case all too well. There is no question that he was rightfully exonerated for the Treblinka/Ivan charge. That one was completely baseless. Less clear is whether he was or was not at Sobibor. He was a POW from the Ukraine after the invasion and "volunteered" to become a guard. I assume death was the only other logical alternative. He became a guard and probably given training at Trawniki.

Your assertions are false.

1. He was rightfully convicted by an Israeli court of being Ivan. He was wrongly released by an ultra-liberal Israeli Supreme Court, which inferred reasonable doubt from likely-forged Soviet documents which should not have been admitted into evidence in the first place.

2. Your "volunteered" should not have quotations. Ukrainians did not have to volunteer for Trawniki, whose purpose was to teach how to kill Jews efficiently. It is false to assert that "death" was the alternative.

3. He was definitely given training at Trawniki.

There is a further problem in the law. Much of the defense of Demjanjuk rested on the Treblinka vs Sobibor question - whether he was a murderous kapo at Treblinka (Ivan) OR a murderous kapo at Sobibor.

This shows a defect in the law, in that it is incapable of understanding and acting upon a logical OR. In other words, Demjanjuk was a mass murderer either at Treblinka OR at Sobibor, and so he should have been executed for his crimes 50 years ago. The law should be revised to integrate an understanding of the logical OR.

840 OrtegaGasset  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:42:44am

re: #838 P. Aaron

he's was tried before in a more than hostile environment and accquitted.

Not exactly acquitted. See my comment above.

841 OrtegaGasset  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:50:56am

re: #828 hazzyday

Christianity in it's historical progress was not a causative factor in the rise of the third reich or the creation of the Holocaust anymore than Darwinism.

Christianity was indeed a factor in the Holocaust. See the book Constantine's Sword by former priest James Carroll, or the book Standing With Israel by former Specter staffer David Brog.

Brog's book does a particuarly good job in explaining how murderously anti-Semitic Christian theology evolved (mostly post-Holocaust) into today's pro-Jewish Christian Zionism.

842 OrtegaGasset  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 10:54:35am

re: #19 zombie

After a while in Germany, I'd look paranoidly at all the old men tottering down the street and think to myself: "Where were you in '42?"

Ironically, so do a lot of young Germans (think to themselves, "Where were you ..."), particularly after the publication there of the Goldhagen book.

It's even more ironic that Germany is more conscientious in its handling of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial, than any Muslim country.

843 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:47:13pm

The embrace of Nazism by German Christian churches actually became so ubiquitous that Hitler felt it necessary to pass a separation of church and state law, forbidding the display of Nazi symbolism (such as the swastika) from the pulpits of churches.

844 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 12:55:49pm

re: #839 OrtegaGasset

Ortega, from reading this. [Link: blog.cleveland.com...]

I would say that your number 1 is false. And also probably your number 2. 3 is true, the stuff after it not true according to the above article. So most of what you have appended here to the bottom of the thread has little basis in fact and is mostly your opinion?

Wishing he was Ivan the Terrible, does not make it so. Convicting him of that when you know it is false .... Ivan is described as being 30 years old and Demja was in his early 20's. Granted it does look like he was at Sobibor in a murdering capacity. The judicial system worked hard to convict him, what undermined it was time and the urge of the authorities in the present to rush to a judgment. Maybe the IBM records will place him better there with a picture or duty roster that can price he lied. It gets harder and harder to do that over time.

845 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:08:19pm

re: #831 Kenneth

You are wrong on two points.

The Nazi Antisemitism was based upon race, not religion. However, they exploited a pre-existing Antisemitism that flourished in Central & Eastern Europe which was based upon religious prejudice.

Nazism couched their racial theories in the language of science, but their was nothing scientific about them. Hitler did not use Christianity, Paganism, or Science to establish state control; he used propaganda, brute force & terror to do that.

So you are saying terror and totalitarianism trumped Christianity and paganism and science in Germany? Salamantis is going to force me to read up more on this. I understand the point that the jews were seldom treated well by anyone in history. And that institutions tended to lock in those beliefs into an undereducated populace. I place that at human nature and not at the Christian(RC and protestant) church even though it was a conduit for hate. The church evolves like everything else. I think it had less of a german government role in 1930 then it did in 1830. I started reading this blood religion stuff but as it was pointed out it has a high kook participation ratio.

This time period is at a margin for me. It seems to be when a lot of people started to look at the world more broadly. Maybe in fact due to the war. I think it is accurate that judeo-christian sourced morals defeated Hitler.

846 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:13:48pm

re: #843 Salamantis

The embrace of Nazism by German Christian churches actually became so ubiquitous that Hitler felt it necessary to pass a separation of church and state law, forbidding the display of Nazi symbolism (such as the swastika) from the pulpits of churches.

Would this be brief but accurate description of the churches in Nazi Germany?

847 OrtegaGasset  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:21:04pm

re: #844 hazzyday

Please provide proof of your aasertion that Demjanjuk had no choice but to volunteer for Trawniki.

(As that would be an element of defense, your assertion implies both Israeli and German cases against Demjanjuk bogus.)

848 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:26:51pm

re: #833 Kenneth

You are quite right to point out that the German people were well aware of the genocide being carried out by the Nazis. even those not directly involved knew what was happening. It is a lie that they did not know the truth.

As I read the Cleveland Plain Dealer articles it made the point over and over that the Jews being sent to the concentration camps and the extermination camps seldom knew what was going to happen until they reached their destination. Even then the Nazi's had protocol's to keep them in ignorance as long as possible. People didn't even believe the reporters who visited this camps after the war. Eisenhower knew it was unbelievable and went forth and documented it. What I have found interesting is that IBM to some extent knew about it. There is a level of acceptance here that today we should find unacceptable.

Reading about the Armenian genocide the death marches were to be hidden. But the sheer number of unburied corpses brought this number to the attention of leaders. But still the disbelief that something like this could happen led to non action.

Cambodia? Not in the news til after it was too late.

Darfur? We still see inaction. The UN is afraid to violate the sovereignty of Sudan and re establish the country. It's a political hot potato. If there is a lesson in the holocaust it can be applied here.

849 OrtegaGasset  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:28:52pm

re: #844 hazzyday

So most of what you have appended here to the bottom of the thread has little basis in fact and is mostly your opinion?

No, it is the opinion of the Jerusalem court which convicted him of crimes against humanity and condemned him to death. I'm sorry if a full evidentiary court carries more weight in my opinion than your cleveland.com article.

Granted it does look like he was at Sobibor in a murdering capacity. The judicial system worked hard to convict him, what undermined it was time and the urge of the authorities in the present to rush to a judgment. Maybe the IBM records will place him better there with a picture or duty roster that can price he lied. It gets harder and harder to do that over time.

Sorry, once again you're misinformed. Demjanjuk's SS id convicted him, with no rush to judgment at all.

Finally, the Ivan issue is a bit of a side show. In either case (Treblinka or Sobibor) he was a murderer.

Like Buchanan, you sound particularly anxious to see the guy get off.

850 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:33:30pm

re: #847 OrtegaGasset

Please provide proof of your aasertion that Demjanjuk had no choice but to volunteer for Trawniki.

(As that would be an element of defense, your assertion implies both Israeli and German cases against Demjanjuk bogus.)

Please provide proof that he was Ivan the Terrible.

What I read was that Cleveland Plain Dealer article. It seemed well researched. That is what they state, since he was in the Red Army and was overrun by the German army and taken as a POW. And this is typically what happened. What they state is that the healthiest pow's were rounded up and taken to be trained to support the German war effort. They found the Ukrainians to be mallable since they had a local history of anti-semitism. And no doubt the ones that ended up as guards at Sobibor were ones who were trusted most to follow German orders. I will agree with you, that if he was there, then he should have been shot as an example of what not to do in a war.

851 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:44:11pm

re: #849 OrtegaGasset

Sorry, once again you're misinformed. Demjanjuk's SS id convicted him, with no rush to judgment at all.

Finally, the Ivan issue is a bit of a side show. In either case (Treblinka or Sobibor) he was a murderer.

Like Buchanan, you sound particularly anxious to see the guy get off.

LoL, That is your projection from your state of mind. The holocaust and 9/11 stories are the most horrifying things I have read in my life. No person should have to experience either. I wouldn't have lasted one day in a boxcar headed to a concentration camp.

Unless something new is revealed, there is a lack of evidence here. The best thing anyone can do is to enchance those dedicated souls who have spent years of their life searching for the guilty who didn't face their trials. His trial in Israel pointed out the fallacy of some of the people in the chase.

We could just kill him and be done with it. Regardless of proof. A lot of people will be happier. It might be justice. It is probably what happened to a lot of people at the end of the war. And history will keep no record of the loss and it will fade away. But there is a reason we don't do that.

852 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 1:55:54pm

re: #830 Salamantis

You miss the point entirely. Hitler gave the orders, but he didn't kill all of the slaughtered Jews personally. No, that took a whole bunch of workaday Germans, with a whole bunch of others aware of what was being done. And we are talking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Gernams who either participated or knew.

Sure, Hitler used what was there to be used. But what was there to be used was centuries of historically ingrained Christian antisemitism. And those who acquiesced or participated in the massacre allowed themselves to be so used. They chose.

And "I was just following orders" is no better an excuse for them than it was for those convicted at Nuremberg.

I agree with what you say here. But I still think it was totalitarianism and human nature not Christianity as the active evil force at work here. I will have to read up on it more.

The "I was just following orders" line is a boundary set by the winners of the war. If every German adhers to that but they are the losers, then the allied powers got to decide what ones were to be executed, which ones to be imprisoned, and which ones to be let go. In the scope of this thread, I would hazard the guess that the extermination camp guards would fall under the "to be executed rule". I'll have to search this also.

The rule that comes out of this for me is that "You never let participants in genocide get away freely". The length of time to enforce seems to be the life span of three generations. Courts of law seem to have difficulty fulfilling this task. It seems that since the UN is so corrupt and poorly designed that a sovereign nation has to resort to violating the boundaries of another sovereign nation to solve this problem.

853 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 2:26:00pm

re: #846 hazzyday

Would this be brief but accurate description of the churches in Nazi Germany?

Brief and one-sided.

You may not like the names of these links, but the information within them is valid or otherwise independent of other opinions of the authors; to maintain otherwise is to engage in an ad hominem fallacy. Evidence should be evaluated on its merits alone. You might also check out the links to other blog entries in the first link at the bottom of the page in blue. The third link, in particular, is quite comprehensive.

[Link: atheism.about.com...]

[Link: www.nobeliefs.com...]

[Link: www.secularhumanism.org...]

You might find this book to be interesting:

[Link: www.cambridge.org...]

Here's what a Third Reich German author had to say about Christianity. It is a detestable site, I know, but when researching filth, you often have to enter sewers.

[Link: www.third-reich-books.com...]

Some more links:

[Link: www.ety.com...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Believe me when I say that these links merely scratch the surface of what is available concerning Christianity during the Third Reich.

Why should this distateful history be remembered? Because it teaches a bitter lesson - one which, if forgotten, might allow this history to be repeated. Religions should not allow themselves to be seduced by charismatic politicians who wink, nod and smile in their direction.

854 hazzyday  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:19:00pm

re: #853 Salamantis

Read them. More Christianity influence than I thought, but still some think I am not quite on top of the reality. Thanks for the links.

855 Salamantis  Thu, Mar 12, 2009 7:39:41pm

This is how decent, responsible Christians reply to such horrors in which their co-religioniosts had an undeniable hand: admission, remorse, regret, apology, repentence, atonement, and a resolve that the sin and error will never be repeated.

[Link: www.christianhistorytimeline.com...]

I note that the site is sponsored by Christianity Today, the most respected mainline nondenominationally Protestant organization in the world.


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