Krauthammer: Obama and Stem Cells

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Opinion • Fri Mar 13, 2009 at 10:46 am PDT • Views: 384

Charles Krauthammer has been in favor of relaxing Bush administration limits on funding embryonic stem cell research, but he’s disturbed at the way Obama did it: President Obama and Stem Cells — Science Fiction.

President Bush had restricted federal funding for embryonic stem cell research to cells derived from embryos that had already been destroyed (as of his speech of Aug. 9, 2001). While I favor moving that moral line to additionally permit the use of spare fertility clinic embryos, President Obama replaced it with no line at all. He pointedly left open the creation of cloned — and noncloned sperm-and-egg-derived — human embryos solely for the purpose of dismemberment and use for parts.

I am not religious. I do not believe that personhood is conferred upon conception. But I also do not believe that a human embryo is the moral equivalent of a hangnail and deserves no more respect than an appendix. Moreover, given the protean power of embryonic manipulation, the temptation it presents to science and the well-recorded human propensity for evil even in the pursuit of good, lines must be drawn. I suggested the bright line prohibiting the deliberate creation of human embryos solely for the instrumental purpose of research — a clear violation of the categorical imperative not to make a human life (even if only a potential human life) a means rather than an end.

On this, Obama has nothing to say. He leaves it entirely to the scientists. This is more than moral abdication. It is acquiescence to the mystique of “science” and its inherent moral benevolence. How anyone as sophisticated as Obama can believe this within living memory of Mengele and Tuskegee and the fake (and coercive) South Korean stem cell research is hard to fathom.

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309 comments

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1 No. Just, no.  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:47:14am

It's all above his pay grade.

2 joncelli  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:48:47am

Complicated issue. So, naturally, it became a political football. Sigh. Sometimes I wish we had a king.

3 quickslow87  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:48:48am

Geez, maybe Obama should have taken a poll before doing this. Isn't that what he does with all major decisions?

/sigh

4 No. Just, no.  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:49:34am

re: #2 joncelli

Complicated issue. So, naturally, it became a political football. Sigh. Sometimes I wish we had a king.

Prince Charles? That's who we'd have.

5 Kragar  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:50:17am

Can't he just eat his waffles?

6 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:50:46am
He pointedly left open the creation of cloned — and noncloned sperm-and-egg-derived — human embryos solely for the purpose of dismemberment and use for parts.


Uhhh...What did I miss? I thought that was explicitly forbidden in the new rules.

7 Kragar  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:50:54am

re: #2 joncelli

Complicated issue. So, naturally, it became a political football. Sigh. Sometimes I wish we had a king.

Fine, I'll do it, but the proper term will be Emperor

8 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:51:01am

This was an easy issue for Obama to pander to his radical base. But to expect him to deal with any "real" issues is asking to much.

9 Fast Eddie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:51:14am

No surprise. The Zero votes "present" again.

10 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:51:25am
11 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:51:53am

Perhaps Krauthammer should be read in conjunction with this, which goes into the funding aspect that was severely underreported in the media (shocka!).

12 MJ  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:52:01am

Kant's Categorical Imperative:

According to Kant, in order to determine the morality of any situation we must:

Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law.

Act in such a way that you always treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never simply as a means, but always at the same time as an end.

So act as though you were, through your maxims, a law making member of a kingdom of ends.

[Link: philosophy.suite101.com...]

13 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:52:39am

UNC down 1 with 1:40 to go

14 zombie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:52:47am
I suggested the bright line prohibiting the deliberate creation of human embryos solely for the instrumental purpose of research

But how then can we ever create mutants and monkeymen to terrify the populace in entertaining post-apocalyptic scenarios?

15 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:53:41am

re: #12 MJ

Bonus point for linking to my former writing grounds (S101).

16 red satellite  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:53:55am
...human propensity for evil even in the pursuit of good...

The money quote.

17 joncelli  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:08am

re: #14 zombie

Lightning generators and bubbling beakers.

/It works in the movies, right?

18 Gretchen  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:09am
How anyone as sophisticated as Obama ..

Umm, er, um, er, so the um, er evidence for sophistication is um, what, and Ivy League degree? Come on Krauthammer, you know better.

19 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:10am

re: #11 lawhawk

Perhaps Krauthammer should be read in conjunction with this, which goes into the funding aspect that was severely underreported in the media (shocka!).

So, Krauthammer is wrong when he makes the statement...

He pointedly left open the creation of cloned — and noncloned sperm-and-egg-derived — human embryos solely for the purpose of dismemberment and use for parts.

... according to the article you linked to.

20 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:22am

UNC up 1 1:13 to go

21 dhg4  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:24am

Remember it's important to remember that Krauthammer could be out there, talking about how the next big thing will cure him and it's only the narrow minded politician who are preventing the cure. But here's Krauthammer from his column blasting John Edwards for his "If John Kerry were President Christohper Reeves could walk" line:

Second, if the cure for spinal cord injury comes, we have no idea where it will come from. There are many lines of inquiry. Stem cell research is just one of many possibilities, and a very speculative one at that. For 30 years I have heard promises of miracle cures for paralysis (including my own, suffered as a medical student). The last fad, fetal tissue transplants, was thought to be a sure thing. Nothing came of it.

As a doctor by training, I've known better than to believe the hype -- and have tried in my own counseling of people with new spinal cord injuries to place the possibility of cure in abeyance. I advise instead to concentrate on making a life (and a very good life it can be) with the hand one is dealt. The greatest enemies of this advice have been the snake-oil salesmen promising a miracle around the corner. I never expected a candidate for vice president to be one of them.

And it's also important to remember his praise for President Bush on his stem cells.

Bush got it right. Not because he necessarily drew the line in the right place. I have long argued that a better line might have been drawn -- between using doomed and discarded fertility-clinic embryos created originally for reproduction (permitted) and using embryos created solely to be disassembled for their parts, as in research cloning (prohibited). But what Bush got right was to insist, in the face of enormous popular and scientific opposition, on drawing a line at all, on requiring that scientific imperative be balanced by moral considerations.

History will look at Bush's 2001 speech and be surprised how balanced and measured it was, how much respect it gave to the other side. Read it. Here was a presidential policy pronouncement that so finely and fairly drew out the case for both sides that until the final few minutes of his speech, you had no idea where the policy would end up.

Bush finally ended up doing nothing to hamper private research into embryonic stem cells and pledging federal monies to support the study of existing stem cell lines -- but refusing federal monies for research on stem cell lines produced by newly destroyed embryos.

22 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:38am

Karuathammer is one of the most brilliant minds in America. I wish he was President because I sure would trust his judgement.

23 Last Mohican  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:43am

OT: Obama fansite CNN.com has a brand new poll up:

What do you think of the Iraqi journalist who threw shoes at former President Bush?

The only two options are "hero" and "outlaw." So far, "outlaw" is winning, 57% to 43%.

24 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:54:44am

re: #14 zombie

Take one pseudo-science music video for inspiration (down to the zombie references):

25 Racer X  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:55:19am
26 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:55:29am

One of the classic SF novels that deals with the moral hazard of treating human life as a means to an end is Norman Spinrad's "Bug Jack Barron". I have a paperback copy that included the blurb "Soon To Be A Major Motion Picture". It's a loss to SF cinema that it never got made.

Maybe they could rewrite it as "Bug Rush Limbaugh"...

27 joncelli  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:55:46am

Off to a potentially contentious meeting, minions. Wish me luck.

28 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:55:55am

re: #19 Walter L. Newton

That's the impression I got too. Google results are moslty right leaning luddite results. I think there might be some disinformation going on here.

29 Kragar  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:56:00am

re: #14 zombie

But how then can we ever create mutants and monkeymen to terrify the populace in entertaining post-apocalyptic scenarios?

We can always resort to bionics, cybernetics and chemical gelding.

30 turn  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:56:11am

re: #22 LGoPs

Karuathammer is one of the most brilliant minds in America. I wish he was President because I sure would trust his judgement.

He may stutter a bit, but he sure as hell doesn't need a TELEPROMPTER.

31 No. Just, no.  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:56:21am

re: #23 Last Mohican

OT: Obama fansite CNN.com has a brand new poll up:


The only two options are "hero" and "outlaw." So far, "outlaw" is winning, 57% to 43%.

There's no "Idiot" option?

32 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:56:54am

re: #27 joncelli

Give 'em hell.

33 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:57:04am

re: #30 turn

He may stutter a bit, but he sure as hell doesn't need a TELEPROMPTER.

I think his stutter has to with his paralysis and having to catch his breath.

34 Gretchen  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:57:17am

re: #11 lawhawk
But Lawhawk, it's not about science anymore than the "stimulus" package is about stimulating anything but Obama's base.

35 turn  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:57:45am

re: #33 Nevergiveup

I think his stutter has to with his paralysis and having to catch his breath.

Really? I didn't know that.

36 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:58:29am

re: #35 turn

Really? I didn't know that.

That he was paralyzed? Quadriplegic.

37 Last Mohican  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:58:51am

re: #31 EmmmieG

There's no "Idiot" option?

Three options would be a little too complex for CNN, I think.

How many thousands of people voted in this CNN poll?

38 turn  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:58:51am

re: #36 Nevergiveup

That he was paralyzed? Quadriplegic.

Both. dang

39 turn  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:59:37am

re: #36 Nevergiveup

That he was paralyzed? Quadriplegic.

I'll guess Biden is going to ask him to stand up some day then.

40 turn  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 10:59:54am

bbl - lunch

41 UFO TOFU  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:00:32am

re: #11 lawhawk

Thanks for posting that.

42 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:00:59am

CK is great, but this is fuzzy:

a potential human life

There is no "potential" here. An embryo, i.e. fertilized, is developing human life. Religion has nothing to do with it.

43 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:01:49am

Krauthammers' words should give pause to those who thoughtlessly push technological advance for its own sake. I'm no Luddite, but I do fear that technology is eminently capable of outstripping the wisdom that's necessary to harness it.

44 HelloDare  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:03:30am

I can't recall when I've ever disagreed with Krauthammer.

45 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:03:53am

UNC up 3 with 3.5 Secs to go. What everybody go to lunch?

46 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:04:11am

By the way, Obama not only threw open the door to human embryo research: he closed, by the same Executive Order, a previous executive order to permit alternative stem cell research. Adult stem cell researcher? No federal funds for you!

This foreclosure means that Obama, when it comes to human embryos, is objectively pro-death.

47 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:04:47am

re: #10 buzzsawmonkey

And/or shut his pie-hole?

Kinda' crusty this morning, aren't you?

48 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:05:03am

re: #14 zombie

But how then can we ever create mutants and monkeymen to terrify the populace in entertaining post-apocalyptic scenarios?

We'll just have to do it the old-fashioned way, with Hollywood special effects.

49 Gretchen  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:05:27am

re: #30 turn

He may stutter a bit, but he sure as hell doesn't need a TELEPROMPTER.

That's because he has ethical reasons for his choices. It's hard to speak extemporaneously when, like Obama, you hold positions that are purely political and are are disjointed from the issues. Stem cells = rationale for abortion, stimulus = furthering a radical social agenda. It gets tricky not to slip and admit your are reducing wealth to make it easier to spread around, or that you don't give a crap about embryos and haven't weighed the worth of them vs. scientific ethics.

50 Gretchen  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:06:53am

re: #14 zombie

But how then can we ever create mutants and monkeymen to terrify the populace in entertaining post-apocalyptic scenarios?


They have Carville and Estrich, aren't they frightening enough without mutation?

51 redc1c4  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:07:57am

re: #2 joncelli

Complicated issue. So, naturally, it became a political football. Sigh. Sometimes I wish we had a king.

i thought we did: Ear Leader sure acts like one most of the time.

52 CharlieBravo  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:08:11am

"anyone as sophisticated as Obama " Sophisticated: adjective (of a person, ideas, tastes, manners, etc.) altered by education, experience, etc., so as to be worldly-wise; not naive.

Yeah, sounds like Obama - NOT!

53 Gretchen  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:08:27am

re: #46 godfrey

By the way, Obama not only threw open the door to human embryo research: he closed, by the same Executive Order, a previous executive order to permit alternative stem cell research. Adult stem cell researcher? No federal funds for you!

This foreclosure means that Obama, when it comes to human embryos, is objectively pro-death.

Adult stem cells actually have more potential without side effects posed by embryonic cells, but Democrats never let politics in the way of science.

54 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:09:43am

Let me see if I understand this. (BTW lawhawk, thanks so much for the link to the Hot Air article!)

Obama signs an executive order removing the restriction on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.

Obama, in the same order removes permission/funding from alternative (i.e. adult) stem cell research. (Thanks for noting that Godfrey.)

Obama then signs the omnibus spending bill that includes a ban on federal funding for the very same research he removed that restriction from in his executive order. (Hot Air article.)

Bottom line: no federal funding for either embryonic or adult stem cell research.

Do I have that right? If so, it is reprehensible, irresponsible, and worthy of nothing but scorn.

55 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:10:37am

re: #53 Gretchen

Hey, Obama just believes it's better to spread the wealth to the Destructo side now and then.

56 useless  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:10:59am

As a former embryo used for scientific experiments, I'm getting a real kick out of these replies.

57 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:11:25am

re: #46 godfrey

By the way, Obama not only threw open the door to human embryo research: he closed, by the same Executive Order, a previous executive order to permit alternative stem cell research. Adult stem cell researcher? No federal funds for you!

This foreclosure means that Obama, when it comes to human embryos, is objectively pro-death.

I've read that here twice this week but I cannot find the link. Do you have one?

58 Intifan  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:12:30am

UNC FTW!

59 Pullus Iulius  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:13:18am

Looking at it on the bright side, I guess this lessens my chances of waking up in an ice-filled Mexican hotel bathtub with a note taped to my chest.
/Again.

60 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:13:22am
61 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:13:56am
Obama's address was morally unserious in the extreme. It was populated, as his didactic discourses always are, with a forest of straw men. Such as his admonition that we must resist the "false choice between sound science and moral values." Yet, exactly 2 minutes and 12 seconds later he went on to declare that he would never open the door to the "use of cloning for human reproduction."

More on Obama's "false choice" rhetorical crutch - one of his favorites - from Mona Charen.

One of President Obama’s strengths is his mild manner. It tends to give the impression of reasonableness, and is reinforced by his habit of presenting strongly ideological moves as mere pragmatism. Rather than acknowledge that he is choosing sides, he spins tales of transcending “the stale political arguments that have consumed us for so long . . . ”

62 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:13:56am

Rats, here again:

Obama's Executive Order

63 kafir lover  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:14:11am
Moreover, given the protean power of embryonic manipulation, the temptation it presents to science and the well-recorded human propensity for evil even in the pursuit of good, lines must be drawn. . . Obama has nothing to say. He leaves it entirely to the scientists. This is more than moral abdication. It is acquiescence to the mystique of “science” and its inherent moral benevolence.

I could not agree more with this perspective. Obama demonstrates an utter lack of leadership in espousing any view, other than that science will err on the side of morality if push comes to shove. This is not only asinine, it is probably motivated more to repeal Bush's initiatives then to actually think through the real consequences. We'll see how long the door stays closed on the "use of cloning for human reproduction" if and when it ever becomes politically tenable.

64 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:14:17am

re: #46 godfrey

By the way, Obama not only threw open the door to human embryo research: he closed, by the same Executive Order, a previous executive order to permit alternative stem cell research. Adult stem cell researcher? No federal funds for you!

This foreclosure means that Obama, when it comes to human embryos, is objectively pro-death.

This whole issue has been about using taxpayer's monies for research, never about the actual science. I do believe there are private companies willing to foot the bill of adult stem cell research, at least for the time being.

65 redc1c4  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:14:21am

re: #58 Intifan

UNC FTW!

crickets...

who's UNC?

66 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:14:48am

re: #61 Occasional Reader

First-class bullshitter, Obama is.

/Yoda voice

67 Last Mohican  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:15:28am

re: #42 godfrey

CK is great, but this is fuzzy:

There is no "potential" here. An embryo, i.e. fertilized, is developing human life. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Even if it's only 16 cells? When someone's colon is resected because he has colon cancer, or diverticulitis, the living structure that is removed is far more complex than an early embryo, capable of quite complicated neurologic activity. Is the embryo entitled to additional protection only because of its pluripotency? What if someone finds a way to turn on the rest of the genome in a resected colon specimen, so that stem cells could be derived from it and used to help a paralyzed person? Should that research be banned because the same stem cells could conceivably have been used to grow a whole human?

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I think I agree with Krauthammer that creating a human embryo for the sole purpose of taking it apart is where the line gets crossed. But I think I disagree with him on the question of whether the president's removal of restrictions on scientific funding needs necessarily to contain a statement of ethical limitations.

For example, scientists test new drugs on animals. There are strict limitations on such testing, and institutional review boards that rigorously review proposed research to make sure that animals don't suffer needlessly. But I don't think that the ethical standards that are derived directly from presidential restrictions on what can and cannot be funded.

68 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #62 godfrey

Rats, here again

Would it be ethical to experiment on them?

69 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:17:40am

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Uhhh...What did I miss? I thought that was explicitly forbidden in the new rules.

If I'm not mistaken, rules forbid "the use of cloning for human reproduction", and don't say anything about cloning embryos to strip them for parts for stem cells.

70 zombie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:18:13am
How anyone as sophisticated as Obama can believe this within living memory of Mengele and Tuskegee

I can't believe he's pimping the "Tuskegee" fraud again.

Listen up, Krauthammer: The Tuskegee Study has been wildly misrepresented, and was intended to HELP people with syphilis.

In short: Prior to the advent of modern antibiotics, syphilis was treated with Arsphenamine. Doctors began to suspect that "the cure was worse than the disease" and a big worry arose that long-term syphilis patients would be better off not getting Arsphenamine treatments. But how to tell? The problem was, every identified syphilis sufferer was already getting the treatments. The only way to test whether or not we were mistakenly killing syphilis sufferers was to find people who had lived with syphilis for years but never been treated. And so they searched -- and found the only people in America who were not being treated -- very poor old black sharecroppers who had basically never had any medical care. The doctors were intrigued as to how they were doing so well -- in some cases, doing better than patients treated with Arsphenamine.

And so, they decided to simply monitor the health of and give free checkups to these poor guys with syphilis. That's it. If the study proved that they were on average healthier than the syphilis patients being treated, then the medical community would drop Arsphenamine entirely. For the benefit of all.

In retrospect, there was huge outcry that we didn't "cure" these guys, but instead just watched them die. But the whole point was, there was no cure when the study started. By "curing" them with Arsphenamine, perhaps we were actually killing them.

Now, as we all know, the study was eventually rendered irrelevant, because a cure for syphilis was found, long after the study started. The controversy arose simply because the study continued, on sheer bureaucratic inertia, for some years after it no longer was serving much of a purpose, because Arsphenamine was being phased out anyway. And yes, the government should have ended the study sooner than it did. But it is not the horrifying crime it has been portrayed as.

Now, the standard things people falsely believe about the Tuskegee Study are:

1. The government gave these guys syphilis on purpose. (Not true -- they already all had syphilis.)
2. They were chosen because they were black, and thus could be 'experimented on". (Not true - they were chosen merely because they were the only untreated syphilis patients in the country. Their race was irrelevant).
3. The study was some sort of Mengelesque "human medical experiment." (Not true -- it was a "medical study," no different than hundreds of other medical studies done around the world, still to this day.)
4. The study was ill-intentioned -- designed to hurt people, out of sadism. (not true -- it was designed to help people.)

And yet, in the mainstream, and in schools around the country, the Tuskegee Study has become synonymous with diabolical human experimentation. But that is just another anti-American myth formulated by propagandists. And Krauthammer should know that.

71 quickjustice  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:18:41am

Parsing the issue carefully, Krauthammer wants to redraw lines, while Obama merely abandons them?

Conclusion: Obama has no interest in parsing any of this. None of it matters to him.

In other words, to repeat the refrain about President Obama that is becoming familiar to libertarians and conservatives: "He just doesn't care."

72 Afrocity  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:19:26am

Good afternoon guys. It is sunny and 35 in Chicago -- a heat wave. I am going out for some air. Borders has 40% off on DVD sets so I think I will buy Firefly

later

73 quickjustice  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:19:55am

re: #72 Afrocity

Enjoy the sunshine!

75 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:20:16am

re: #14 zombie

But how then can we ever create mutants and monkeymen to terrify the populace in entertaining post-apocalyptic scenarios?

You'll have to do it the old-fashioned way, with cyborgs.

76 Last Mohican  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:20:34am

re: #70 zombie

That is very interesting, and certainly not the way it was presented to me in medical school. You got a link or something so that I can read more?

77 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:20:49am

re: #61 Occasional Reader

Good catch.

78 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:21:13am

re: #72 Afrocity

so I think I will buy Firefly

An observation on that; I think that by the time we have faster-than-light starships, even the most second rate of them will probably be armed with something more effective than a guy dangling out of the cargo hatch on a rope holding a shotgun.

79 kafir lover  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:21:48am

re: #71 quickjustice

He does care. He cares about his self-interests and anything that may be of use to preserve that. Obama is a master at abdicating absolutely everything including genuine leadership (the single most important quality of the presidential office) to other people. He has "won" and everyone else winds up holding the bag and picking up the tab.

80 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:22:00am

re: #26 Dar ul Harb

One of the reasons I suppose is that the production was blessed/cursed with a Harlan Ellison screenplay (just as was the unproduced excellent version of Asimov's I, Robot --nothing like the Will Smith action vehicle).

81 Afrocity  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:22:11am

re: #78 Occasional Reader

...but Nathan Fillion is so cute! I just wish River would jump off.

82 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:22:28am

re: #67 Last Mohican

Even if it's only 16 cells?

Of course. It's human DNA, it obviously exists, and it's developing. Left on a natural course, it will develop further in a well-known direction.

Is the embryo entitled to additional protection only because of its pluripotency?

Not because of its pluripotency, but because of its being "human being." I am forced to say yes, we have to put all of these human beings, whose development is artificially arrested, in reserve. We created this mess. As long as adult stem cells are providing lots of excellent results, let's put our money and effort there. For all the labs with embryos in storage, let's give them incentives to re-tool and work on adult cells. Surely they're capable of doing it.

83 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:23:01am

re: #77 MandyManners

Good catch.

I have always said that I keep a close eye on Obama's rhetorical crutches, and the notion that I have not done so is just another example of the failed policies of the past, and the stale rhetoric of partisanship.

84 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:23:46am

re: #72 Afrocity

Good afternoon guys. It is sunny and 35 in Chicago -- a heat wave. I am going out for some air. Borders has 40% off on DVD sets so I think I will buy Firefly

later

Enjoy the weather and the DVDs, beautiful lady. :)

Make sure you get Serenity as well. ;)

85 zombie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:24:04am

re: #76 Last Mohican

That is very interesting, and certainly not the way it was presented to me in medical school. You got a link or something so that I can read more?

Sorry, no. I researched it extensively, in libraries,, long ago. Haven't looked it up online. Whatever they taught you in medical school was propaganda. Trust me.

86 Last Mohican  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:24:21am

re: #72 Afrocity

Borders has 40% off on DVD sets

I have a funny feeling that the State Department is aware of that fact.

87 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:25:28am

re: #86 Last Mohican

I have a funny feeling that the State Department is aware of that fact.

What makes you think those Einstein's didn't pay full price?

88 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:26:01am

re: #67 Last Mohican

Even if it's only 16 cells? When someone's colon is resected because he has colon cancer, or diverticulitis, the living structure that is removed is far more complex than an early embryo, capable of quite complicated neurologic activity. Is the embryo entitled to additional protection only because of its pluripotency? What if someone finds a way to turn on the rest of the genome in a resected colon specimen, so that stem cells could be derived from it and used to help a paralyzed person? Should that research be banned because the same stem cells could conceivably have been used to grow a whole human?

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I think I agree with Krauthammer that creating a human embryo for the sole purpose of taking it apart is where the line gets crossed. But I think I disagree with him on the question of whether the president's removal of restrictions on scientific funding needs necessarily to contain a statement of ethical limitations.

For example, scientists test new drugs on animals. There are strict limitations on such testing, and institutional review boards that rigorously review proposed research to make sure that animals don't suffer needlessly. But I don't think that the ethical standards that are derived directly from presidential restrictions on what can and cannot be funded.

IIRC, that animals not suffer during testing is legislative in nature, but I could be wrong.

89 pat  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:26:31am

I think Obama has no idea what he is doing. He is being led around by special interests and far left ideologues who he considers deep thinks and who share his vision of a deconstructed America. He rarely has an idea of subject content, has shown only a minuscule knowledge of rather common knowledge and repeats politically correct platitudes as if they were truth. No one has ever asked him who the Prime Minister of Pakistan is, as Bush was. So he skates on an illusion of intelligence when I see none

90 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:27:16am

re: #86 Last Mohican

I would've paid a hefty sum to see the look on the Brits' faces when they unwrapped that DVD package. Can you think of any other gift more humiliating? It's like giving your spouse a toilet plunger for your anniversary.

91 Zimriel  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:27:18am

re: #4 EmmmieG

Prince Charles? That's who we'd have.

Not if we went Jacobite. Third time's a charm?

92 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:27:40am

There should be a specialty bookstore for books about pirates, called Boarders. Yarr!

93 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:27:41am

re: #85 zombie

Sorry, no. I researched it extensively, in libraries,, long ago. Haven't looked it up online. Whatever they taught you in medical school was propaganda. Trust me.

As is the case with a lot of accepted wisdom, it is so much propaganda packaged for easy consumption.

94 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:28:23am
95 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:28:23am

re: #86 Last Mohican

I have a funny feeling that the State Department is aware of that fact.

LOL

I don't seem to find any Border's in England. I was seriously thinking of sending my coupon to Gordon Brown so he could pick out something of his choice and in the correct format. ;-)

96 HelloDare  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:28:33am

re: #70 zombie

There's a link to Krauthammer's email at the article. Have you tried contacting him?

97 acwgusa  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:29:11am

Obama says economy is causing 'pain and hardship' for families

Yes, thank you, President Numskull. Are you going to tell us that water is wet, fire is hot, and the sky is blue?

98 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:29:13am

re: #92 Occasional Reader

Tons of Great Pirate Books

an' a bottl' ah Rum

99 Lincolntf  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:29:25am

re: #90 godfrey

"Well, Mum, looks like the chap gave us "E.T.", "Tootsie" and something called "Porky's 2".
What a fine lad.

100 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:29:49am

Since his appearance before a congressional hearing on the use of steroids in baseball, retired slugger Mark McGwire has made few public appearances and rarely spoken with the media.

That silence was broken on Friday, as McGwire, in an interview with The New York Times,

So he still isn't really talking to the Media? I mean the NYTs, please?

101 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:30:07am

re: #90 godfrey

I would've paid a hefty sum to see the look on the Brits' faces when they unwrapped that DVD package. Can you think of any other gift more humiliating? It's like giving your spouse a toilet plunger for your anniversary.

We should be grateful that these rubes didn't give Brown a can of Spotted Dick...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

102 funky chicken  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:30:12am

re: #18 Gretchen

Umm, er, um, er, so the um, er evidence for sophistication is um, what, and Ivy League degree? Come on Krauthammer, you know better.

Krauthammer spent a few columns praising Obama's supposed sophistication vs Palin's, so I doubt he will ever really admit that he, like many other folks on the right coast, was totally bamboozled by the Teleprompter Reader.

103 Zimriel  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:30:13am

re: #78 Occasional Reader

An observation on that; I think that by the time we have faster-than-light starships, even the most second rate of them will probably be armed with something more effective than a guy dangling out of the cargo hatch on a rope holding a shotgun.

The show implied that the ships are subluminal. It's outright stated in the Big Damn Movie that the events take place in a single star system.

104 brookly red  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:30:30am

re: #97 acwgusa

Obama says economy is causing 'pain and hardship' for families

Yes, thank you, President Numskull. Are you going to tell us that water is wet, fire is hot, and the sky is blue?

Well, at least he didn't say that he "feels" that pain...

105 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:30:32am

re: #70 zombie

Thank you for clearing that up zombie. I had never had reason to look into it, but was aware of the study and my impressions pretty much fit the hype.

106 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:30:46am

re: #95 Pvt Bin Jammin

I don't seem to find any Border's in England

I dare you to say that out loud in a Glasgow pub.

107 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:31:16am

re: #97 acwgusa

Obama says economy is causing 'pain and hardship' for families

Yes, thank you, President Numskull. Are you going to tell us that water is wet, fire is hot, and the sky is blue?

Yet he hosts LAVISH parties at the WH as if this were Boom Times and the Roaring Twenties all rolled up together.

108 zombie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:31:26am

re: #96 HelloDare

There's a link to Krauthammer's email at the article. Have you tried contacting him?

No. Sorry. Got better things to do with my time!

109 Nevergiveup  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:31:36am

re: #102 funky chicken

Krauthammer spent a few columns praising Obama's supposed sophistication vs Palin's, so I doubt he will ever really admit that he, like many other folks on the right coast, was totally bamboozled by the Teleprompter Reader.

He support and voted for McCain

110 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:32:13am

re: #103 Zimriel

The show implied that the ships are subluminal. It's outright stated in the Big Damn Movie that the events take place in a single star system.

Really? I guess I missed the subluminal message.

/rimshot

If so, that's one damn interesting star system... I mean, it has how many habitable planets?

111 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:32:25am

zombie

I'm skimming the wiki on Tuskegee, and it looks fair at first glance.

112 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:32:29am

re: #10 buzzsawmonkey

And/or shut his pie-hole?

LOL. I saw this bumper-sticker this morning on the way to work:

Why can't people with closed minds extend that to their mouths as well?

113 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #70 zombie

Actually, the cure for syphilis was discovered in 1947 and this treatment was withheld from those in the Tuskegee study, which continued until 1972. In fact, those involved in the study were told they had bad blood and never told that, in fact, they had syphilis.
IMO, a blot on the history of medicine in the US.

114 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:32:59am

re: #78 Occasional Reader

An observation on that; I think that by the time we have faster-than-light starships, even the most second rate of them will probably be armed with something more effective than a guy dangling out of the cargo hatch on a rope holding a shotgun.

Sometimes the simplest methods are the most cost effective.

115 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:33:01am

In a general way about this topic, From the Pope's letter podted on LGF yesterday, these lines might be relevant:

The real problem at this moment of our history is that God is disappearing from the human horizon, and, with the dimming of the light which comes from God, humanity is losing its bearings, with increasingly evident destructive effects.

116 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:33:25am
117 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:33:32am

re: #101 LGoPs

We should be grateful that these rubes didn't give Brown a can of Spotted Dick...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

At least something like that would have been more appropriate than a boxed set of DVDs.

Giving back a gift bust of Winston Churchill and pawning off a set of DVDs to a world leader. The Chutzpah of Our Messiah-King is staggering.

118 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:33:48am

re: #85 zombie

Sorry, no. I researched it extensively, in libraries,, long ago. Haven't looked it up online. Whatever they taught you in medical school was propaganda. Trust me.

It appears that Jonah Goldberg found some of the same things you did:

Tall tales about Tuskegee

119 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:34:06am

Krauthammer went to Harvard Med School. The Harvard crowd tends to look after its own.

120 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:34:23am

re: #115 Ojoe

Posted not podted

LOL PIMF

121 FlakMusic  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:34:31am

re: #46 godfrey

By the way, Obama not only threw open the door to human embryo research: he closed, by the same Executive Order, a previous executive order to permit alternative stem cell research. Adult stem cell researcher? No federal funds for you!

This foreclosure means that Obama, when it comes to human embryos, is objectively pro-death.

This is the consistent pattern of Obama's actions (in contrast to his happy, hope-y, faux-moderate words). To my knowledge he has never supported any legislation that would limit, regulate, or in any other way impede the destruction of embryos, the killing of a fetus, etc.

122 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:34:31am

re: #106 Occasional Reader

LOL

123 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:35:50am

re: #113 Wishing

Actually, the cure for syphilis was discovered in 1947 and this treatment was withheld from those in the Tuskegee study, which continued until 1972. In fact, those involved in the study were told they had bad blood and never told that, in fact, they had syphilis.
IMO, a blot on the history of medicine in the US.

I'd say it is a wee bit bigger than a blot

124 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:36:07am

re: #121 FlakMusic

Mr. "punished with a baby" Obama.

125 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:37:12am

Tuskegee Study:

By 1947 penicillin had become the standard treatment for syphilis. Prior to this discovery, syphilis frequently led to a chronic, painful, and fatal multi-system disease. Rather than treat all syphilitic subjects with penicillin and close the study, or split off a control group for testing penicillin, the Tuskegee scientists withheld penicillin and information about penicillin, in order to continue studying how the disease spreads and kills. Participants were also prevented from accessing syphilis treatment programs that were available to other people in the area. The study continued until 1972, when a leak to the press resulted in its termination.[3] By then, of the 399 infected participants, 28 had died of syphilis and another 100 had died from medical complications related to syphilis. In addition, 40 wives of participants had been infected with syphilis, and 19 children had contracted the disease at birth.
Link

126 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:37:31am

re: #123 summergurl

I'd say it is a wee bit bigger than a blot

Agree.

127 Catttt  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:38:01am

OT

Does anyone else hide their bras, then find them again months later?

OK - off to shop!

128 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:39:13am

re: #126 Wishing

Agree.


I still am amazed that the study extended to 1972. 1972 to my 40 something self, seems so just yesterday.

129 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:39:14am
... a forest of strawmen.

I am liking Charles Krauthammer more & more each day.

130 Russkilitlover  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:39:21am

re: #97 acwgusa

Obama says economy is causing 'pain and hardship' for families

Yes, thank you, President Numskull. Are you going to tell us that water is wet, fire is hot, and the sky is blue?

But yesterday, he said it wasn't as bad as we thought. I'm so confused.

Going to grab some Greek food for lunch. BBIAB.

131 zombie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:39:22am

re: #113 Wishing

Actually, the cure for syphilis was discovered in 1947 and this treatment was withheld from those in the Tuskegee study, which continued until 1972. In fact, those involved in the study were told they had bad blood and never told that, in fact, they had syphilis.
IMO, a blot on the history of medicine in the US.

I'm not saying that the Tuskegee Study is something we should all be proud of: Only that is has been wildly mischaracterized and blown all way out of proportion. Yes, in retrospect, the doctors in charge should have recommended to the government that the study be discontinued, long before they did. But I blame bureaucratic ineptitude and sheer institutional inertia more than some bizarre desire to "torture black people," as has been claimed.

132 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:39:49am

re: #127 Cattt

OT

Does anyone else hide their bras, then find them again months later?

OK - off to shop!

I can't say I have ever had an overwhelming need to hide my bras. ;)

/ no, I really don't own, wear, or even want bras of my own.

133 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:40:07am

re: #128 summergurl

I still am amazed that the study extended to 1972. 1972 to my 40 something self, seems so just yesterday.

Exactly, summergurl. Unconscionable. How did these supposed *doctors* sleep at night?

134 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:40:43am

re: #83 Occasional Reader

I have always said that I keep a close eye on Obama's rhetorical crutches, and the notion that I have not done so is just another example of the failed policies of the past, and the stale rhetoric of partisanship.

Stop paying your taxes! You have a future in the FCBBHO Administration!

135 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:40:54am

re: #2 joncelli

Complicated issue. So, naturally, it became a political football. Sigh. Sometimes I wish we had a king.

You mean ... we don't?

136 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:41:14am

re: #127 Cattt


The need to hide them is what makes me curious...

137 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:41:16am

Krauthammer makes a very good point.

I have frequently written here that the difference between science and religion is the difference between asking "how" and asking "why."

The place where the two need to come together (along with philosophy) as a healthy society is in answering "should?"

However, answering "should" requires having a strong moral compass and a deep understanding of what the science actually is. I do not attribute those virtues to congress. I do not attribute those virtues to our theologians either. Most of them have very little clue about science. Scientists themselves though are human beings. More than once, science has been used in evil manners - but it is very important to note that all of the atrocities of science have come from the desires of a government.

Mengele was not some guy just hanging out in an isolated laboratory. He had the full backing of the Nazi government. Tuskegee was done by our own government (not to mention hallucinogen tests on our own soldiers at Ft. Meade). If you want to prevent the horrors of the misuse of science, you have to have transparent and accountable government watched over by an informed and interested electorate.

Good luck with that!

To be certain, stem cell research in this phase is not going to produce science fiction nightmares. The technology is not at that point. Bringing up the specter of Mengele is vastly unfair to people who want to cure Parkinson's disease and regenerate lost nerve tissue.

However, it is not ridiculous to sit back and honestly try to think about the potential misuses of the technology. In fact, it is vital that citizens do this.

Consider cloning - which was Mengele's ultimate interest - combined with genetic modification. Outside of a very wealthy person wanting to copy himself for vanity's sake, what possible use could human cloning have? This must be a use that would justify the expense of doing it on a large scale.

There are exactly four uses.

1. Slave soldiers who have been "tweeked" to be whatever the government that is funding its idea of superior.

2. Slave labor

3. Slave prostitutes

4. Spare parts for "real" people.

I am not trying to write every science fiction horror meme here either. I am saying that cloning modified humans on a large scale would be expensive and difficult. for cloning to be profitable on a large scale, what would entice a government or a large corporation to do so?

So maybe we should care about these things.

On the other side though, stem research in of itself is not that. Here we get back to the main point. The public needs to know what the science is and it is not.

The MSM has a long and vibrant tradition of yellow journalism applied to science. For the record, not every appliance in your home causes cancer. Neither do cell phones. In fact let me use the cell phone hype as an example to this point.

You can, if you took the time to know Maxwell's equations, or ask someone who knows them, calculate how far a given magnetic field might penetrate your skin. It turns out that the field from your cell phone would not even get past the layer of dead cells in the epidermis.
But then again the fact that your cell phone can not physically be doing anything to you would not make good press, and the typical member of the public is not going to take the time to find that out. Hell, if you call a stronger magnet "magneto therapy" he may well wear those suddenly good magnets in his shoes. For the record, both do nothing.

The point is that the public is easily scared and manipulated, so they will not do the job properly either.

Ultimately, the question of should needs to be answered by our society as a whole. Very few in it, from the top down give a damn enough to even try to answer "should" responsibly. We should be asking these "should" questions. In fact, we must be asking these questions, but as a whole we are only whining and generally ignorant which leaves all the room in the world for the very abuses we fear.

138 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:41:27am

OT: Looks like St. Pancake has some competition:

US demonstrator critically injured at West Bank protest

About 400 protesters turned out in Nil'in on Friday, according to the IDF. Some of them hurled rocks at troops, who used riot gear to quell the unrest, it added, without elaborating.

Well what the fuck did you think would happen?

139 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:41:32am
140 Mauser  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:41:38am

Obama lifting the executive order against FUNDING (important point the left misses) ESC research is about as meaningless as Bush lifting the ban on offshore drilling.

The budget he just signed two days later contains a ban on ESC research.

[Link: www.cnsnews.com...]

141 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:41:54am

re: #135 unreconstructed rebel

You mean ... we don't?


A boy king

142 kafir lover  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:41:55am

re: #102 funky chicken

Krauthammer spent a few columns praising Obama's supposed sophistication vs Palin's, so I doubt he will ever really admit that he, like many other folks on the right coast, was totally bamboozled by the Teleprompter Reader.

I think a lot of us who did not vote for Obama (at least speaking for myself) knowing he was without substance were at least willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in the beginning - even if it was the slimmest of hopes - for the sake of our nation when he was elected.

Now, I am sure that anyone who retained even the slightest bit of cautious optimism is appalled at how virtually every worst-case scenario prophesied about this guy is coming true - worse than many of us dared to imagine.

143 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:42:09am

re: #2 joncelli

Complicated issue. So, naturally, it became a political football. Sigh. Sometimes I wish we had a king.

We have the next best thing, an anointed and enthroned media-approved Messiah-King.

144 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:42:46am

re: #131 zombie

I'm not saying that the Tuskegee Study is something we should all be proud of: Only that is has been wildly mischaracterized and blown all way out of proportion. Yes, in retrospect, the doctors in charge should have recommended to the government that the study be discontinued, long before they did. But I blame bureaucratic ineptitude and sheer institutional inertia more than some bizarre desire to "torture black people," as has been claimed.

I don't think anyone saw it as torturing anyone: the fact that some men, Americans yet, who took an oath to DO NO HARM participated in this is a nightmare that we need to see with eyes wide open, and not pull the covers of *burocratic gobbeldygook* over our eyes.

145 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:42:58am

re: #92 Occasional Reader

There should be a specialty bookstore for books about pirates, called Boarders. Yarr!

Yarrr.

146 Dave the.....  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:43:13am

There's a joke going around the blogs (maybe it's hit here already).

What's the difference between Obama and Jesus?
Jesus knew how to build a cabinet.

147 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:43:22am

re: #138 Creeping Eruption

OT: Looks like St. Pancake has some competition:

US demonstrator critically injured at West Bank protest

Well what the fuck did you think would happen?

I'm sure they expected that since they are American that the EEEVIL Juices would just give up and go away.

148 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:44:11am

re: #145 MandyManners

Yarrr.

Move yer mouse over the picture.

149 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:44:45am

re: #18 Gretchen

Umm, er, um, er, so the um, er evidence for sophistication is um, what, and Ivy League degree? Come on Krauthammer, you know better.

Sophomoric keeps coming to mind.

150 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:45:00am

re: #127 Cattt

OT

Does anyone else hide their bras, then find them again months later?

OK - off to shop!

Free the Mammaries!

151 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:45:26am

re: #148 MandyManners

Move yer mouse over the picture.

You are twisted! I love it. ;)

152 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:45:52am
153 CIA Reject  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:46:41am

re: #121 FlakMusic

This is the consistent pattern of Obama's actions (in contrast to his happy, hope-y, faux-moderate words). To my knowledge he has never supported any legislation that would limit, regulate, or in any other way impede the destruction of embryos, the killing of a fetus, etc.

He must be faithful in the service of his political masters at Planned Parenthood.

Moreover, BO is a Marxist and in the Marxist mind the individual has no intrinsic value other than as a servant of the State. So it is not at all surprising that he would embrace a view of those, such as the unborn, who are incapable of serving the State as nothing more than medical waste that can be "recycled" into something "useful". Look for him to attempt to discard the elderly in a similar fashion as he develops his "healthcare" policy.

His attitudes are really not surprising at all when you consider the monstrous nature of his core beliefs.

154 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:46:53am

re: #152 taxfreekiller

Pathological Liar, aka much speaking with forked tongue.

In the unsanitary stimulus bill, "end of Mexican trucks in U.S."

Now after the lies are done, this weird king of the lies does this

and to the Teamsters Union guys,,?

[Link: www.examiner.com...]

dumb, lazy, stupid , liar, this Obama

Well put!

155 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:46:58am

re: #139 buzzsawmonkey

I have heard, in conversation, historical illiterates confusing the Tuskegee syphilis studies with the Tuskegee Airmen.

That gets weird.

The Tuskegee Airmen contracted syphilis at the Mustang Ranch. Duh.

156 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:48:44am

re: #139 buzzsawmonkey

I have heard, in conversation, historical illiterates confusing the Tuskegee syphilis studies with the Tuskegee Airmen.

That gets weird.

There are many people out there who know just enough to be dangerous.
For example, they'll know about Marx, but be immune to warnings about the dialectic, because they think he was a funny comedian.
/

157 Zimriel  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:49:11am

re: #110 Occasional Reader

Really? I guess I missed the subluminal message.

/rimshot

If so, that's one damn interesting star system... I mean, it has how many habitable planets?

That was the reason for my delay in posting a response. I have no idea how to explain this system.

The star would have to be a hot one to have such a huge habitable region. Which also means it's too young for any of these planets to have a land biosphere. Vega?

158 jjmckay1216  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:49:44am

re: #127 Cattt

ummm... no. course, i'm a boy lol

159 CIA Reject  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:49:49am

re: #155 Occasional Reader

The Tuskegee Airmen contracted syphilis at the Mustang Ranch. Duh.

Are you a reporter for the Washington Post by any chance? :-)

160 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:50:16am

re: #143 FurryOldGuyJeans

We have the next best thing, an anointed and enthroned media-approved Messiah-King.

Your'e pretty close to the mark. And the media is his Praetorian Guard...entrusted to protect him from all conservative enemies.

161 abaleh  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:50:25am

re: #156 LGoPs

There are many people out there who know just enough to be dangerous.
For example, they'll know about Marx, but be immune to warnings about the dialectic, because they think he was a funny comedian.
/

Wasn't he three funny comedians?

/

162 Afrocity  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:50:53am

re: #124 Ojoe

Mr. "punished with a baby" Obama.

You mean like Obama's momma was... Sorry just had to pop in and say that.

163 avanti  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:50:54am

re: #131 zombie

But I blame bureaucratic ineptitude and sheer institutional inertia more than some bizarre desire to "torture black people," as has been claimed.


How about total disregard about the value of a black life ? There is no excuse for institutional institutional inertial to allow human beings to suffer and die with a cure at hand. They were treated like lab rats.

164 Kragar  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:51:21am

U.S. Jet Shoots Down Iranian Drone Over Iraq

Details of the previously-unreported shoot-down, which occurred last month, are still sketchy. But we do know that American commanders have long accused Tehran of supplying weapons and training to all sorts of Iraqi militant groups. Shi'ite militias fired Iranian rockets at U.S. troops in Iraq, according to the American military; Sunni militias allegedly used Iranian armor-piercing bombs to reduce U.S. vehicles to ribbons.

In early 2008, however, the torrent of Iranian weapons into Iraq slowed to a trickle, the U.S. said. And now, the new Obama administration is looking for ways to reach out to the Tehran regime -- dangling invitations to international conferences, and offering promises of renewed relations.

Which means the drone incident comes at a particularly sensitive time.

HOW DARE THE MILITARY UNDERMINE OBAMA! How can Tehran unclench when this happens?

///

165 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:52:46am

re: #155 Occasional Reader

The Tuskegee Airmen contracted syphilis at the Mustang Ranch. Duh.

They flew P-40's...not Mustangs. Silly rabbit.
Pretty witty comeback line though, anyway. My compliments.
:)

166 DaddyG  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:52:56am

re: #101 LGoPs

We should be grateful that these rubes didn't give Brown a can of Spotted Dick...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Whewn did this turn into a sexually transmitted disease thread?

//

167 Sunlight  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:52:57am

Dr. Krauthammer:

On this, Obama has nothing to say.

But he did! He said it is above his pay grade. Surely, we know from the hippy years that nothing is right, nothing is wrong, nothing is better or preferable to anything else. President Obama has not developed any sense of morality that would guide him in these matters.

168 jjmckay1216  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:53:02am

re: #140 Mauser

Ok, I don't understand that at all. Is that double-speak with a PEN?

169 godfrey  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:53:45am

re: #155 Occasional Reader

Sounds like a lyric from Bob Log.

170 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:53:51am

re: #167 Sunlight

Dr. Krauthammer:

But he did! He said it is above his pay grade. Surely, we know from the hippy years that nothing is right, nothing is wrong, nothing is better or preferable to anything else. President Obama has not developed any sense of morality that would guide him in these matters.

His only morality is pursuing full-on Socialism.

171 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:54:23am

re: #165 LGoPs

They flew P-40's...not Mustangs. Silly rabbit.
Pretty witty comeback line though, anyway. My compliments.
:)

"The Tuskegee Airmen were initially equipped with P-40 Warhawks, briefly with P-39 Airacobras (March 1944), later with P-47 Thunderbolts (June-July 1944), and finally with the aircraft that they became most commonly identified with, the P-51 Mustang (July 1944)."

172 FlakMusic  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:54:30am

re: #153 CIA Reject

Look for him to attempt to discard the elderly in a similar fashion as he develops his "healthcare" policy.

Waiting to hear what the Obama people come up with for a Hope & Change friendly euphemism for the soylent green initiative.

Any ideas?

173 vagabond trader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:55:10am

re: #153 CIA Reject

To me he gives off a very creepy vibe. The insensitive comment about his typical white old Granny, the punished with a baby remark,many others I cannot pull down at the moment.They evidence an intrinsic lack of warmth for basic humanity imho.

174 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:55:16am
175 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:56:50am

re: #161 abaleh

Wasn't he three funny comedians?

/

Yes, because he was cloned.

/

176 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:57:17am

re: #165 LGoPs

They flew P-40's...not Mustangs. Silly rabbit.
Pretty witty comeback line though, anyway. My compliments.
:)

Occasional Reader. I stand corrected. They initially flew -40's but eventually ended up with Mustangs.
My attempt to be a smart-ass fell on it's face.
Mea culpa.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

177 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:57:45am
178 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:58:02am

re: #171 Occasional Reader

You beat me to my own correction. See my #176.
:)

179 CIA Reject  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:58:08am

re: #172 FlakMusic

Waiting to hear what the Obama people come up with for a Hope & Change friendly euphemism for the soylent green initiative.

Any ideas?

I would guess that they will start with a "right to die" and gradually morph that into a "duty to die". Then somebody can go out and cue Edward G. Robinson.

180 abaleh  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:58:31am

From Krauthammer's December 21st, 2007 column:

On North Korea and Iran, with no real options at hand, the Bush administration heads to the finish line doing what Sen. George Aiken once suggested for Vietnam: Declare victory and go home. With no good options available, those decisions are entirely understandable. But if Bush or his successor does an Aiken on Iraq, where success is a real option, history will judge him severely.

181 vagabond trader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:58:48am

re: #173 vagabond trader

Also, being one of the few in support of the born alive atrocity.A real cold cookie, total opposite of what so many see as a warm caring hopey changey guy.

182 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:58:51am

OT, but then the thread already has several discussions going:

Sellers Will Be Required To Provide Thumbprint Before Deal Is Approved

Fingerprinting is something we often associate with crime. So the fact that Cook County home sellers--and homeowners across the state--will soon have to provide a thumb print left some people shocked.

Shocked? No shit. You need to be run through NCIC before you can sell your home - just like purchasing a gun? What's next, "sensible home control"?

Oh wait. Also from the article:

The law specifies that consumers can be charged up to $25 to cover fingerprint processing costs.

It's just a new tax. Why didn't you just say so?

Assholes.

183 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:58:55am

re: #176 LGoPs

Mea culpa.

Ego te absolvo.

184 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:58:56am

re: #101 LGoPs

We should be grateful that these rubes didn't give Brown a can of Spotted Dick...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Would it have been better if O had brought a casserole dish of Toad in the Hole?

185 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:59:26am

Off to the salon for the afternoon. Have a great day, Lizards!

186 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:59:27am
187 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:59:28am

How would you define "homeless"?

To me it is living in a homeless shelter or car or on the street - But apparently not everyone thinks the same

How to count homeless kids

188 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:59:44am
189 DaddyG  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:59:44am

re: #172 FlakMusic

Waiting to hear what the Obama people come up with for a Hope & Change friendly euphemism for the soylent green initiative.

Any ideas?

Grandparents Going Green!

190 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 11:59:52am

re: #131 zombie

I'm not saying that the Tuskegee Study is something we should all be proud of: Only that is has been wildly mischaracterized and blown all way out of proportion. Yes, in retrospect, the doctors in charge should have recommended to the government that the study be discontinued, long before they did. But I blame bureaucratic ineptitude and sheer institutional inertia more than some bizarre desire to "torture black people," as has been claimed.

Zombie, I normally love your stuff, but you are way off base here.

Tuskegee was interested in finding out the long term effects of untreated syphilis. Our government at the time decided that letting the disease progress in black men, whom the government clearly considered disposable. Was of use in order to gain data on how long soldiers could go untreated in the field before their combat effectiveness was degraded.

In otherwords, the medical profession, which is there to save lives and promote human life was prostitued by seeing black people who were seeking treatment (!)as expendable "units" in order to maintain the military efficiency of other units deemed more useful.

If we hold as a self evident truth that humans are not units, this was a breech of our deepest principles as Americans. However, it is much, much worse than that. Citizens came for help. They were offered "help" which actually, knowingly, destroyed their lives. They had all of their rights and human dignity stripped from them in that moment, by the very people who were supposed to protect them and aid them.

This is one of the most disgusting chapters in our history. If you want to get hung up on the word torture, go ahead, but when you do, you misdirect the argument from the main point.

191 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:00:11pm

re: #165 LGoPs

They flew P-40's...not Mustangs. Silly rabbit.
Pretty witty comeback line though, anyway. My compliments.
:)

From the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force.
While the 99th Fighter Squadron made its mark in combat, Benjamin Davis had been sent back to the United States to organized the 332nd Fighter Group, which absorbed the 99th into an all-black group of four squadrons. They left their P-40s and P-39s in favor of the robust P-47 Thunderbolt, and later the sleek P-51 Mustang. Davis, now a colonel, returned to lead the group. He was known as a strict disciplinarian and urged his men to prove themselves in combat as the best reply to racism.
commonly identified with, the P-51 Mustang (July 1944).

192 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:00:26pm

re: #181 vagabond trader

Also, being one of the few in support of the born alive atrocity.A real cold cookie, total opposite of what so many see as a warm caring hopey changey guy.


For a "family man" - I just don't get it...

193 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:00:43pm

re: #182 subsailor68

OT, but then the thread already has several discussions going:

Sellers Will Be Required To Provide Thumbprint Before Deal Is Approved

Fingerprinting is something we often associate with crime. So the fact that Cook County home sellers--and homeowners across the state--will soon have to provide a thumb print left some people shocked.

Shocked? No shit. You need to be run through NCIC before you can sell your home - just like purchasing a gun? What's next, "sensible home control"?

Oh wait. Also from the article:

The law specifies that consumers can be charged up to $25 to cover fingerprint processing costs.

It's just a new tax. Why didn't you just say so?

Assholes.

The ingenuity of municipalities of finding new ways to tax people to impoverishment is astounding.

194 vagabond trader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:00:50pm

re: #187 summergurl

Oh brother, more newspeak.

195 DisturbedEma  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:00:50pm

re: #179 CIA Reject

I would guess that they will start with a "right to die" and gradually morph that into a "duty to die". Then somebody can go out and cue Edward G. Robinson.

How about conservation of resources? They are already making that claim, albeit in the case of health insurance, in Oregon. . .survival of the fittest. . .

196 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:01:08pm

re: #191 CyanSnowHawk

Oops, there's a little much there from something I meant to erase.

197 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:02:19pm

re: #194 vagabond trader


I know-

numbers are such a touchy-feely thing to some

198 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:02:34pm

re: #187 summergurl

How would you define "homeless"?

To me it is living in a homeless shelter or car or on the street - But apparently not everyone thinks the same

How to count homeless kids

Yeah, it appears there are two different definitions, one from the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the other from the Department of Education. Why couldn't they get together on this?

199 CIA Reject  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:02:37pm

re: #173 vagabond trader

To me he gives off a very creepy vibe. The insensitive comment about his typical white old Granny, the punished with a baby remark,many others I cannot pull down at the moment.They evidence an intrinsic lack of warmth for basic humanity imho.

All characteristic of a good Marxist: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot- none of them would likely be playing Santa Claus at the annual winter solstice celebration either.

This is what we have elected to power in America.

200 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:02:51pm

re: #174 Iron Fist

Generally, I agree with you. The difference between what we could do and what we should do isn't a question that is asked enough. It's like I tell my boss when he asks for some outlandishly convoluted functionality in software, it is possible. It is almost always possible. Recommended? That is a different thing entirely.

I disagree here, though:


Not true. The Nazi doctors were government sanctioned, but many medical atrocities aren't. The best example right off the top of my head is Dr. Jack Kevorkian. He is, IMHO, the most successful serial killer in history. He performed his murders in such a way that he could actually claim his kills, and get national exposure for them, even commendations from certain groups for his "brave stand".

He just ate that shit up. He got better press than Jack the Ripper, and for a very long time no one could touch him. A license to practice medicine was the next best thing to a license to kill.


I hear your point, but it does not really apply to what I was saying. Kevorkian was not a research scientist. He was doing no research. He was not looking for anything new, and his stand had nothing to do with inventing or discovering anything.

You have a great point - but you are shooting at the wrong target.

201 summergurl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:03:13pm

re: #198 subsailor68

Yeah, it appears there are two different definitions, one from the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the other from the Department of Education. Why couldn't they get together on this?


They're the government?

202 Occasional Reader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:03:38pm

re: #187 summergurl

How would you define "homeless"?

To me it is living in a homeless shelter or car or on the street - But apparently not everyone thinks the same

How to count homeless kids

James Taranto's "Best of the Web" earlier this week had a couple of pieces on the wild distortions in that "homelessnes" report.

203 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:04:02pm

re: #187 summergurl

How would you define "homeless"?

To me it is living in a homeless shelter or car or on the street - But apparently not everyone thinks the same

How to count homeless kids

Just another way to grab more tax monies to pad out the federal bureaucracies.

204 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:04:15pm

re: #201 summergurl

They're the government?

Oops. Think you might be on to something there.

;-)

205 brookly red  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:04:35pm

re: #193 FurryOldGuyJeans

The ingenuity of municipalities of finding new ways to tax people to impoverishment is astounding.

Wouldn't it make more sense to finger-print the buyer?

206 UFO TOFU  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:05:07pm

re: #193 FurryOldGuyJeans

You mean like cities that base your sewer bill on your water consumption?

207 DisturbedEma  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:05:09pm

re: #204 subsailor68

Oops. Think you might be on to something there.

;-)

Nooo, if they're from the government, they are here to HELP you///

208 gonecamping  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:05:20pm

Good Ole Biden. I can just picture him skipping down the yellow brick road singing "If I only Had A brain".

So if Biden is the scarecrow in the remake of Oz, who fills in the rest of the cast...?

re: #39 turn

I'll guess Biden is going to ask him to stand up some day then.

209 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:05:22pm

re: #198 subsailor68

Yeah, it appears there are two different definitions, one from the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the other from the Department of Education. Why couldn't they get together on this?

Why get together when two wildly conflicting definitions means more tax money used to pay for more bureaucrats.

210 DisturbedEma  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:05:42pm

re: #206 UFO TOFU

You mean like cities that base your sewer bill on your water consumption?

funny how I always spew out what I take in. . .exactly the same amount. . .

211 vagabond trader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:05:47pm

re: #188 Iron Fist

I used to work with seriously disturbed young adults. I concur that his affect is odd,and he does exhibit many classic tendencies of a narcissistic personality. Then again, so do most politicians and entertainers.

212 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:06:05pm

re: #191 CyanSnowHawk

I know. Caught myself in #176...

213 Raven1  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:07:12pm

re: #164 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

U.S. Jet Shoots Down Iranian Drone Over Iraq

HOW DARE THE MILITARY UNDERMINE OBAMA! How can Tehran unclench when this happens?

///

I'm willing to bet Obama already put out the word, no more shooting down Iranian drones.

214 DisturbedEma  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:07:43pm

re: #208 gonecamping

Good Ole Biden. I can just picture him skipping down the yellow brick road singing "If I only Had A brain".

So if Biden is the scarecrow in the remake of Oz, who fills in the rest of the cast...?

Hillary/Wife= Wicked Witch
Tin Man= Rahm
Cowardly Lion- Sheesh, the cast of thouseands up for the role. . .maybe the "moderate" democrats

And of COURSE dear leader owns the role of the Wonderful Wizard of FauxOZ. . .

215 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:07:48pm
216 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:08:11pm

re: #205 brookly red

Wouldn't it make more sense to finger-print the buyer?

Seller may not own the property he or she is "selling."

217 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:08:16pm

re: #205 brookly red

Wouldn't it make more sense to finger-print the buyer?

Fingerprinting either seller or buyer makes absolutely no sense until owning a home becomes a restricted thing like a gun. This is both a gross violation of privacy and a very duplicitous revenue stream.

218 gonecamping  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:08:37pm

That's odd, for every pint I drink it seems like a liter goes out

re: #210 DisturbedEma

funny how I always spew out what I take in. . .exactly the same amount. . .

219 HelloDare  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:09:10pm

re: #125 Wishing

Tuskegee Study:

By 1947 penicillin had become the standard treatment for syphilis. Prior to this discovery, syphilis frequently led to a chronic, painful, and fatal multi-system disease. Rather than treat all syphilitic subjects with penicillin and close the study, or split off a control group for testing penicillin, the Tuskegee scientists withheld penicillin and information about penicillin, in order to continue studying how the disease spreads and kills. Participants were also prevented from accessing syphilis treatment programs that were available to other people in the area. The study continued until 1972, when a leak to the press resulted in its termination.[3] By then, of the 399 infected participants, 28 had died of syphilis and another 100 had died from medical complications related to syphilis. In addition, 40 wives of participants had been infected with syphilis, and 19 children had contracted the disease at birth.
Link

This is confusing. According to Jonah Goldbers...

So what did happen? In 1932, public health researchers set out to study syphilis, particularly among African-Americans, who had higher infection rates than whites. They recruited 399 black men who already had syphilis. The doctors infected no one. In fact, the patients were selected in the first place because they were tertiary-stage syphilitics who were no longer contagious.
220 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:09:19pm

re: #216 Creeping Eruption

Seller may not own the property he or she is "selling."

What is the use of doing a title search then?

221 rexatosis  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:09:40pm

Robin Cook noted many years ago in the author's note to "Coma" that medical technology and innovation invariably outpaced human ethics and as such creates serious moral problems which are only grappled with after that technology comes to fruition. Pres. Bush, wrongly or rightly, wrestled with the ethical issue regarding the use of embryonic stem cells, Pres. Obama has essentially taken the "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" approach to the ethical issues raised by this technology. In the long run it is invariably better to wrestle with the ethics of scientific/medical technology than ignore the problem even if there a disagreements as to exactly where the ethical "line in the sand" is drawn. It would serve President Obama well to understand this basic principle of good governance lest we unleash the Dr. Moreau's, and Frankenstein's of the world from the shackles of ethical constraint.

222 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:09:49pm

re: #212 LGoPs

I know. Caught myself in #176...

Almost went with the Wikipedia quote, the remains of which can be seen at the end of my comment, but wanted something a little more authoritative. So by the time I posted, it had already played out.

223 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:09:49pm

re: #209 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why get together when two wildly conflicting definitions means more tax money used to pay for more bureaucrats.

Good point. On the other thread I made the point that there are two ways to define "mortgage crisis".

It can be defined to cover folks who bought a home, then lost a job - making a home they could afford no longer affordable.

Or, it could mean people who lied on their mortgage applications, took loans larger than they could afford, used the system to "flip" houses they never intended to live in, or bought second or third homes (such as a vacation home) that they couldn't afford.

Hmm...looks like the Obama plan covers both versions. Unfortunately.

224 vagabond trader  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:10:47pm

re: #182 subsailor68

These are the same azzhats who become apoplectic at mention of proving ones eligibility to vote, or listening in on terrorist conversations.

225 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:10:54pm

US demonstrator critically injured at West Bank protest

ISM moonbats conducting an illegal demonstration in the West Bank were throwing rocks at IDF soldiers. The IDF fired tear gas cannisters to disperse the ISMers, and the American demonstrator was unfortunately hit in the head by the cannister. He was not hit by a bullet.

226 FlakMusic  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:12:11pm

re: #189 DaddyG

Grandparents Going Green!

Community Reinvestment Snack

227 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:12:19pm

An embryo is a human being in an early stage. To use him for experiments is immoral. The first part is pure science; the second is ethics.
For Obama to even pretend he is on the side of science is disingenuous at best. He must be called on it and now.

228 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:12:20pm

re: #216 Creeping Eruption

Seller may not own the property he or she is "selling."

All the notarized stuff already requires a thumbprint here in CA. I take that this is separate from that and has an extra fee attached as mentioned above.

229 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:12:25pm
230 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:12:27pm

re: #220 FurryOldGuyJeans

What is the use of doing a title search then?

In the case of fraud, a title search won't help. The criminal will have recorded the warranty deed or quit claim deed, and the buyer is screwed until they see an attorney. Ususlly, this kind of fraud involves someone at the title agency (as opposed to the actual title insurer) or someone at the mortgage company (Hard to believe, I know) making sure everything looks kosher.

231 nyc redneck  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:12:53pm

o has never shown a reverence for life.
he really is a commie.
calloused and indifferent to human beings.
this will become more obvious if he is successful in socializing medicine.
bureaucrats will base care on their choice of who deserves it.
or bribes their way in.
libs always leave the door open to the worst possibilities.
it is never abt. the best interest of the person.

232 Wishing  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:14:55pm

re: #219 HelloDare

Notice the DATES: the study began in 1932 and continued until 1972. The cure for syphilis was discovered in 1947. Your quote is simply discussing the beginnings of the study.

233 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:15:32pm

re: #224 vagabond trader

These are the same azzhats who become apoplectic at mention of proving ones eligibility to vote, or listening in on terrorist conversations.

Just reinforces LGoPs Rule #1 regarding Libtards:
"The rules are anything we fucking decide them to be, whenever we feel like it".

BTW...Rule #2 is:
"Never let Libtards be in charge of anything"

234 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:16:08pm

re: #230 Creeping Eruption

In the case of fraud, a title search won't help. The criminal will have recorded the warranty deed or quit claim deed, and the buyer is screwed until they see an attorney. Ususlly, this kind of fraud involves someone at the title agency (as opposed to the actual title insurer) or someone at the mortgage company (Hard to believe, I know) making sure everything looks kosher.

Adding an additional financial burden to legal buyers and sellers simply because of the criminal acts of some is as stupid as making it harder to legally own a firearm simply because a criminal chose to violate existing gun laws.

235 Creeping Eruption  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:16:53pm

re: #234 FurryOldGuyJeans

Adding an additional financial burden to legal buyers and sellers simply because of the criminal acts of some is as stupid as making it harder to legally own a firearm simply because a criminal chose to violate existing gun laws.

Amen.

236 revobob  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:19:57pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Move yer mouse over the picture.

Haven't 'seen' Loflyer lately- kinda miss "talk like a pirate" day, week, month...

237 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:20:10pm
238 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:21:59pm
239 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:23:00pm

re: #234 FurryOldGuyJeans

Adding an additional financial burden to legal buyers and sellers simply because of the criminal acts of some is as stupid as making it harder to legally own a firearm simply because a criminal chose to violate existing gun laws.

But it is the liberal way. And it ends up with all of us entangled in an impenetrable web of laws and taxes that smother a free society.

240 hazzyday  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:23:55pm

re: #182 subsailor68

OT, but then the thread already has several discussions going:

Sellers Will Be Required To Provide Thumbprint Before Deal Is Approved

Fingerprinting is something we often associate with crime. So the fact that Cook County home sellers--and homeowners across the state--will soon have to provide a thumb print left some people shocked.

Shocked? No shit. You need to be run through NCIC before you can sell your home - just like purchasing a gun? What's next, "sensible home control"?

Oh wait. Also from the article:

The law specifies that consumers can be charged up to $25 to cover fingerprint processing costs.

It's just a new tax. Why didn't you just say so?

Assholes.

These will find their way into a national fingerprint database that will be used for compliance searching.

241 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:24:15pm
242 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:25:51pm
243 HelloDare  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:26:23pm

re: #232 Wishing

Notice the DATES: the study began in 1932 and continued until 1972. The cure for syphilis was discovered in 1947. Your quote is simply discussing the beginnings of the study.

Yes, I understand that. My point is that if tertiary-stage syphilis is not contagious how did those 40 wives and their 19 children get syphilis? Did they contract it from a person not in the study or did the study contain men who did not have tertiary-stage syphilis? In any case, the men should have been treated once penicillin was available.

244 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:26:57pm

re: #240 hazzyday

These will find their way into a national fingerprint database that will be used for compliance searching.

That's a frightening thought, isn't it? It's one thing to end up in a federal database as the result of committing a crime; quite something else again to end up there because you sold your home.

245 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: #239 LGoPs

But it is the liberal way. And it ends up with all of us entangled in an impenetrable web of laws and taxes that smother a free society.

Impoverish us as they enact serfdom in thrall to The State.

246 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:28:33pm

re: #238 Iron Fist

I think he got banned.

User Blocked. Last posts from Dec. 13, 2008.

247 justabill  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:30:16pm

re: #78 Occasional Reader

An observation on that; I think that by the time we have faster-than-light starships, even the most second rate of them will probably be armed with something more effective than a guy dangling out of the cargo hatch on a rope holding a shotgun.

You would think that our society, with its ability to build ships capable of trans-oceanic voyages would have merchant vessels with more than the occasional crew carried side arm to protect them from pirates. But we don't. Not because we can't but because it would violate treaty obligations.

I suspect the issue on the series/movie is that the ships are most likely produced in the core worlds. It would not be in the interest of the core to have ships not owned by the core military armed. After market modifications would of course be possible, but probably illegal and easily detectable. Probably not worth the risk for any ship that spends any time at all visiting core worlds.

248 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:30:37pm

re: #205 brookly red

Wouldn't it make more sense to finger-print the buyer?

No. Doing neither makes sense. Unless you want a society that the government has even more knowledge of and control over what individuals do.

249 CLLRusso  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:31:03pm

re: #227 Joan Not of Arc

An embryo is a human being in an early stage. To use him for experiments is immoral. The first part is pure science; the second is ethics.
For Obama to even pretend he is on the side of science is disingenuous at best. He must be called on it and now.

Considering the Dems consider abortion legal at any stage of a pregnancy what makes anyone think an embryo would be of any importance to them except for experimentation?

250 revobob  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:31:22pm

re: #246 CyanSnowHawk

User Blocked. Last posts from Dec. 13, 2008.

...adds 'talkin like a pirate' to list of Footballs not-to-do...

251 Dustyvet  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:31:41pm

re: #246 CyanSnowHawk

User Blocked. Last posts from Dec. 13, 2008.

Oh Keel Hauled eh? Arrr...

252 nyc redneck  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:35:00pm

re: #221 rexatosis

Robin Cook noted many years ago in the author's note to "Coma" that medical technology and innovation invariably outpaced human ethics and as such creates serious moral problems which are only grappled with after that technology comes to fruition. Pres. Bush, wrongly or rightly, wrestled with the ethical issue regarding the use of embryonic stem cells, Pres. Obama has essentially taken the "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" approach to the ethical issues raised by this technology. In the long run it is invariably better to wrestle with the ethics of scientific/medical technology than ignore the problem even if there a disagreements as to exactly where the ethical "line in the sand" is drawn. It would serve President Obama well to understand this basic principle of good governance lest we unleash the Dr. Moreau's, and Frankenstein's of the world from the shackles of ethical constraint.

you are exactly right. the problem is: o has no ethics.
he is genuinely unable to address this situation w/ any moral or ethical clarity. look how he pressed to derail the "infant born alive protection act."
he has no idea why it is wrong to let a new born baby die in a broom closet
after she survived a botched abortion.

253 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:37:47pm

It's ironic that libtards who are 100% against any genetically modified foods ("it's messing with nature!") are 100% for all stem cell research. Maybe more hypocritical than ironic.

I'm for both, but I don't want to see embryo factories become legal and accepted.

254 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:37:48pm

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote


(* begin extract

Outside of a very wealthy person wanting to copy himself for vanity's sake, what possible use could human cloning have? This must be a use that would justify the expense of doing it on a large scale.

There are exactly four uses.

1. Slave soldiers who have been "tweeked" to be whatever the government that is funding its idea of superior.

2. Slave labor

3. Slave prostitutes

4. Spare parts for "real" people.

end extract*)


Sorry, but one very important use has been overlooked here. Cloning exceptionally effective individuals. Imagine, if you will, that Nation X has plans that require the work of great generals and great scientists. Imagine, also, that they make it a practice to take and freeze cells from which an individual can be cloned, the moment the child shows extraordinary promise.

Now what happens when a few dozen Einsteins, Fermis, Feynmans, and so forth are put to work in the service of Great Leader's scientific teams, and Genghis Khan and his coequals fill the highest posts in the armed forces?

One such man can up-end history. For purposes of war or research, he outweighs millions of ordinary mortals, and thousands of PhD-level wits or well-trained officers.

A few hundred such men, clones of an extraordinary half-dozen, could be effective enough to pay such a regime for the expense of cloning them, even if it cost much too much to clone on an industrial scale.

For a regime that treats everyone as a slave, we're talking tweaked slave officers.

In a free country, there would be bound to be rich men who embarked on a project of cloning super-scientists, super-athletes, etc., not just themselves. This could well create a new kind of arms race, as societies with the merely normal incidence of supergeniuses found themselves increasingly behind the curve.

255 justabill  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:40:17pm

re: #254 lostlakehiker

KAHHHNNN!

256 DisturbedEma  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:41:04pm

re: #255 justabill

KAHHHNNN!

Mr. Roarkeee!

257 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:41:15pm
258 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:41:41pm

re: #244 subsailor68

That's a frightening thought, isn't it? It's one thing to end up in a federal database as the result of committing a crime; quite something else again to end up there because you sold your home.

Yes frightening. At the risk of sounding biased I'll take it a little further. When Republicans/conservatives are in charge my fear is much less. Because, despite their flaws, I trust their instincts and their basic judgment and the fact that in general, they are friends to the idea of the individual. Democrats are the exact opposite, embodying the collectivist approach, which is always prepared to sacrifice the individual for the 'collective good'.
As an example I point to the case of FISA and the terrorist wiretaps. I never felt threatened since I rarely, if ever :) talk to terrorists in caves in Afghanistan. Consequently if the wiretap genie flitted across a phone call between my mother and myself, I figured they'd move on to something more interesting. I don't feel the same with Democrats in charge. And they have telegraphed their true intent to me by their caterwauling over FISA because I am convinced that they were Projecting their own nefarious intent onto the President. Now that they're in charge, I expect them to put their intent into practice. Or, at the very least, I fear that that is what will happen. And I have no faith whatsoever in the new Attorney General looking out for my best interests.

259 brookly red  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:43:05pm

re: #252 nyc redneck

you are exactly right. the problem is: o has no ethics.
he is genuinely unable to address this situation w/ any moral or ethical clarity. look how he pressed to derail the "infant born alive protection act."
he has no idea why it is wrong to let a new born baby die in a broom closet after she survived a botched abortion.

Worse yet, millions of supporters who can't see that it's wrong that he can't see that it's wrong.

260 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:47:41pm

re: #258 LGoPs

Couldn't have put it any better. No matter how large the network, there are only so many communications that can be monitored - with world-wide traffic, etc. Keywords help filter that traffic to a more manageable level. Repubs use keywords like terror, bin Laden, and so on.

Democrats use words like Obama and sucks. Different filter entirely.

;-)

261 brookly red  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:50:15pm

re: #258 LGoPs
Re: "As an example I point to the case of FISA and the terrorist wiretaps. I never felt threatened..."

/FISA has nothing on Googel, now THAT is a database.

262 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:52:26pm

re: #254 lostlakehiker

Sorry, but one very important use has been overlooked here. Cloning exceptionally effective individuals. Imagine, if you will, that Nation X has plans that require the work of great generals and great scientists. Imagine, also, that they make it a practice to take and freeze cells from which an individual can be cloned, the moment the child shows extraordinary promise.

Now what happens when a few dozen Einsteins, Fermis, Feynmans, and so forth are put to work in the service of Great Leader's scientific teams, and Genghis Khan and his coequals fill the highest posts in the armed forces?

One such man can up-end history. For purposes of war or research, he outweighs millions of ordinary mortals, and thousands of PhD-level wits or well-trained officers.

A few hundred such men, clones of an extraordinary half-dozen, could be effective enough to pay such a regime for the expense of cloning them, even if it cost much too much to clone on an industrial scale.

For a regime that treats everyone as a slave, we're talking tweaked slave officers.

In a free country, there would be bound to be rich men who embarked on a project of cloning super-scientists, super-athletes, etc., not just themselves. This could well create a new kind of arms race, as societies with the merely normal incidence of supergeniuses found themselves increasingly behind the curve.

At the end of the day, that falls under category 2, slave labor. You are creating a life for an express purpose you have pre-defined for him or her.

What if your Einsiten clone wants to be a violinist? Do you force him to do physics? Is he now a free citizen to go off and be his own man after the investment was made to create him? More over, will your coerced Einstien clone be as good at physics as one who loves it?

I am not saying that what you have written is completely off base. The idea of getting another sixty years out of another 60 Mozarts is very appealing. However, there is another flip side to this.

If we create a cloned class of thinkers, what does that do to the ambitions of the next generation? Why try to be the next great composer when we have sixty Mozarts?

Really, these are all word games that dodge the central question. It is one thing to say I want to bring someone into the world. It is another to say, this person does nothave free will, I will take it from him from the outset, by demanding his future serve my purposes.

The should question here is "do we have the right to do such a thing?"

263 zombie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:53:22pm

re: #190 LudwigVanQuixote

Zombie, I normally love your stuff, but you are way off base here.

Tuskegee was interested in finding out the long term effects of untreated syphilis. Our government at the time decided that letting the disease progress in black men, whom the government clearly considered disposable. Was of use in order to gain data on how long soldiers could go untreated in the field before their combat effectiveness was degraded.

In otherwords, the medical profession, which is there to save lives and promote human life was prostitued by seeing black people who were seeking treatment (!)as expendable "units" in order to maintain the military efficiency of other units deemed more useful.

If we hold as a self evident truth that humans are not units, this was a breech of our deepest principles as Americans. However, it is much, much worse than that. Citizens came for help. They were offered "help" which actually, knowingly, destroyed their lives. They had all of their rights and human dignity stripped from them in that moment, by the very people who were supposed to protect them and aid them.

This is one of the most disgusting chapters in our history. If you want to get hung up on the word torture, go ahead, but when you do, you misdirect the argument from the main point.

The Tuskegee participants were not "seeking treatment." In fact, many of them had never been to a doctor before, and most of them did not even know they had syphilis.

I'm not defending the Tuskegee Study as an outstanding example of American wonderfulness. The second half of the study was, admittedly, wrong. And it shouldn't have happened. I'm merely saying that is has been mischaracterinzed and wildly exaggerated for propagandistic purposes.

One of the main criticisms of the study was that the participatns did not "give informed consent." But in fact most participants in most medical studies in those days were not asked for their consert. It was standard practice to 'experiment" on people withoutb their knowledge. I, myself, was an unwitting participant in a medical drug trial, when my mother verbally agreed (without the slightest awareness of the significance of what she was agreeing to) to let the hospital "try out" a new drug on me, when I was just six months old. (I later found out the drug was subsequently banned for having dangerous side effects, which I personally endured.) My mother never signed a piece of paper, was never told the name of the drug, and was never warned of the dangers. Took me two years of research to find out what exactly had been tested on me. I learned during that research that it was completely commonplace for doctors to experiment and do mass trials without getting any written consent. It was only after 1972, because of the scandal surrounding Tusekegee, that informed consert became required. But the point I'm trying to make is that the Tuskegee Study was not an egregious example of consentlessness -- stuff like that happened all the time. You say the participants were treated like "lab rats" -- well, so was I, and so were thousands of Americans or all races, for most of the 20th century. (Famously, the Department of Defense sprayed San Francisco with flu germs to see how effective a germ warfare attack would be. They infected thousands of people who didn't even know an experiment was being conducted. There are hundreds of similar incidents. No, they're nothing to be proud of; I'm just pointing out that the attitudes displayed during the Tuskegee Study were not unusual.)[cont.]

264 zombie  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:54:11pm

Furthermore, the original goal of the study was not malicious -- it really was intended to see if not treating syphilis was a better way to go than treating it with noxious drugs that were not entirely effective.

The part that was morally questionable was allowing the study to continue even after it was discovered that penicillin was a helpful treatment.

I'm not defending that. i t was the wrong thing to do. But I don't think it has been ever been ascertained exactly why they let the study continue. It is merely a conspiracy theory to claim that it was out of sheder racism.

Keep in mind that the participants were mostly tertiary syphilitics, which means they were pretty much beyond treatment anyway. Perhaps that played a role in the decision. I don't know.

I only know that the medical community had a different set of standards back then, that there were countless studies done on all sorts of people that were equally questionable morally, and the only reason this one is endlessly referred to is that it is one of the few ones where the participants were exclusively black. So it can be twisted to look like they were specifically chosen due to their race, and specicially mistreated. But as bad as it was, in fact they were treated no more bacdly than (white) participants in countless other studies.

Once again: I'm not saying the Tuskegee Study was "good" or a proud moment in our history, only that it has been exaggertaed and mischaracterized for propagandistic purposes.

265 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:54:29pm

re: #254 lostlakehiker

Sorry, but one very important use has been overlooked here. Cloning exceptionally effective individuals. Imagine, if you will, that Nation X has plans that require the work of great generals and great scientists. Imagine, also, that they make it a practice to take and freeze cells from which an individual can be cloned, the moment the child shows extraordinary promise.

Now what happens when a few dozen Einsteins, Fermis, Feynmans, and so forth are put to work in the service of Great Leader's scientific teams, and Genghis Khan and his coequals fill the highest posts in the armed forces?

One such man can up-end history. For purposes of war or research, he outweighs millions of ordinary mortals, and thousands of PhD-level wits or well-trained officers.

A few hundred such men, clones of an extraordinary half-dozen, could be effective enough to pay such a regime for the expense of cloning them, even if it cost much too much to clone on an industrial scale.

For a regime that treats everyone as a slave, we're talking tweaked slave officers.

In a free country, there would be bound to be rich men who embarked on a project of cloning super-scientists, super-athletes, etc., not just themselves. This could well create a new kind of arms race, as societies with the merely normal incidence of supergeniuses found themselves increasingly behind the curve.


And I see your well written points too.

Another question is what happens when a regime that is less moral than we decides to do it anyway. Do we not do it too for our own protection?

266 nyc redneck  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:57:33pm

re: #259 brookly red

Worse yet, millions of supporters who can't see that it's wrong that he can't see that it's wrong.

actually, just today i realized that is the reason, more than anything, that i have had a low grade depression since this grifter was voted into office.
that he fooled so many people. it is so disappointing to me. and quite sobering
to know that 52% of this country fell for a dangerous calculating narcissist.
i can't even stand to be around my friends who voted for him. i just can't look
at them the same way. this election has had a huge impact me that i am still processing. i have realized that my views are not even political really, it is the way i see the world. it's abt. values, 'morals', ethics, all that old fashioned stuff that much of our society seems to have lost track of today.
anyway, yes, it bothers me that millions could not see thru this derelict who is now potus.

267 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:58:49pm
268 Aviator  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 12:59:02pm

An interesting fact is that a technique using piggy back transposons to modify skin cells to plueripotential cells was recently published. Has the potential to make ESC passee.

269 debutaunt  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:00:05pm

re: #182 subsailor68

OT, but then the thread already has several discussions going:

Sellers Will Be Required To Provide Thumbprint Before Deal Is Approved

Fingerprinting is something we often associate with crime. So the fact that Cook County home sellers--and homeowners across the state--will soon have to provide a thumb print left some people shocked.

Shocked? No shit. You need to be run through NCIC before you can sell your home - just like purchasing a gun? What's next, "sensible home control"?

Oh wait. Also from the article:

The law specifies that consumers can be charged up to $25 to cover fingerprint processing costs.

It's just a new tax. Why didn't you just say so?

Assholes.

I'm sure that the 'fingerprint to vote' is just around the corner - uh huh.

270 brookly red  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:01:56pm

re: #266 nyc redneck

try to take comfort in knowing that pain is an excellent teacher...

271 SunshineGirl  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:03:19pm

I'm surprised he made a decision, and took action on this-- I would have thought this issue was 'above his pay grade'.

272 brookly red  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:05:17pm

re: #269 debutaunt

I'm sure that the 'fingerprint to vote' is just around the corner - uh huh.

well, it's the tracking of HOW you vote that is the problem... the secret ballot is already under attack in regards to labor.

273 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:10:56pm

re: #264 zombie

Well said. I hear you.

We agree that the idea that humans are test subjects - without their consent, and without a clear idea of trying to help them is really wrong.

I do not debate that there have been all sorts of less than wonderful things that have happened in the name of medicine, to many people and for many reasons, some much less noble than others.

The main oint though is and will continue to be that the public needs to be informed and that questions of medical ethics and scientific ethics need to be driven by an informed social concensus. What we have no are too many calls made by too many groups who have their own motives which are frequently less than noble.

Governments abuse their power. The check on it is a representative system where the electorate can toss them out. This does not obtain if the public has no clue. The check on less than ethical research by corporations is a government that knows it will be tossed out by that electorate if it fails to be a good watch dog. This does not obtain, the public has no clue. The public itself must be the ultimate watchman and it fails.

The public has no clue for three reasons.

One, the people who are douing bad things classify them or otherwise keep them secret from the populace.

Two, the populace in general, only gets morally outraged at things that it feels might affect themselves. These days we do most of our field tests of new drugs in Africa. Sometimes it works well and the companies involved are not *trying* to kill sick villagers. But, if the drug does not work so well... Well, we care about it as much as we as a society care about Darfur.

Three, most of the public thinks it is perfectly acceptable to treat science as something you "believe in" niot something that actually reflects physical reality. Further, most of the public honestly thinks that it is "ok" to not know algebra. The deep scientific ignorance of the public does not make them bad people, however, it does mean that they are easily scared and manipulated by the very groups they should be watching like hawks.

274 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:13:41pm

re: #263 zombie


Toug I do have to dissagree about the whole not seeking treatment assertion. If you go to the doctor and have something wrong, you expect him to figure it out and treat you. The doctors knew full well what the score was and that treatments were availible. The argument that they were not specifically seeking treatment for syphilis is a bit of a technicality.

275 LGoPs  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:13:58pm

re: #266 nyc redneck

actually, just today i realized that is the reason, more than anything, that i have had a low grade depression since this grifter was voted into office.
that he fooled so many people. it is so disappointing to me. and quite sobering
to know that 52% of this country fell for a dangerous calculating narcissist.
i can't even stand to be around my friends who voted for him. i just can't look
at them the same way. this election has had a huge impact me that i am still processing. i have realized that my views are not even political really, it is the way i see the world. it's abt. values, 'morals', ethics, all that old fashioned stuff that much of our society seems to have lost track of today.
anyway, yes, it bothers me that millions could not see thru this derelict who is now potus.

You and I are kindred spirits nyc redneck. I feel precisely the same way. My disgust at the 52% is hard to express. And it's what makes me despondent far beyond just having this poseur as POTUS. Because it almost ensures that we will keep getting more of the same in the future

276 KitchenQueen  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:19:47pm

re: #46 godfrey

he closed, by the same Executive Order, a previous executive order to permit alternative stem cell research.


He did? This is the first place I've heard that - is there a link for more information?

277 nyc redneck  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:27:04pm

re: #275 LGoPs

You and I are kindred spirits nyc redneck. I feel precisely the same way. My disgust at the 52% is hard to express. And it's what makes me despondent far beyond just having this poseur as POTUS. Because it almost ensures that we will keep getting more of the same in the future


and most of my friends are in that group. i'm looking at a major change in my life.
wiping the slate clean of these people. it is something i never thought i'd be facing.

278 funky chicken  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:34:26pm

re: #221 rexatosis

That was a great book. I wonder if it's still available in public libraries around here...I'd like to read it again.

279 funky chicken  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:35:46pm

re: #277 nyc redneck

Can you move? I keep saying that to people, and most of them think it's a nutty suggestion, but I'm a military spouse, so moving is a normal part of my life.

280 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:38:38pm

re: #260 subsailor68

Couldn't have put it any better. No matter how large the network, there are only so many communications that can be monitored - with world-wide traffic, etc. Keywords help filter that traffic to a more manageable level. Repubs use keywords like terror, bin Laden, and so on.

Democrats use words like Obama and sucks. Different filter entirely.

;-)

At least that is what you assume. Assuming that the Republicans only used illegal wiretaps for good purposes - and it was illegal otherwise there would not have needed to be an amnesty bill for the phone companies - is a bit naive. Assuming that the Dems would use this unconstitutional power grab over the people for perfectly kosher purposes is also false. The fact is that there is a potential for abuse here that is terrifying to me.

Imagine our nation ever did go fascist. We have handed the government a way to insure that no group could ever organize against them. I do not understand how conservatives, who value individual liberty could possibly be comfortable with such a system, when the fact is that the second the government turns it against us, we have already put our heads into a double nelson.

281 LudwigVanQuixote  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:42:19pm

Gotta go! Good Shabbos to all fellow tribe lizards and have a great evening and Saturday to all other lizards!

282 Lynn B.  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:43:26pm

re: #42 godfrey

CK is great, but this is fuzzy:

There is no "potential" here. An embryo, i.e. fertilized, is developing human life. Religion has nothing to do with it.

It's not "fuzzy" at all. Regardless of whether he is "religious" or now, Krauthammer is simply articulating the position that Jewish law takes on this matter. The RCC takes a different position.

So, yes, religion has everything to do with it.

283 KitchenQueen  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:44:11pm

re: #276 KitchenQueen

He did? This is the first place I've heard that - is there a link for more information?

Okay, I saw the link in the later post. Thanks, godfrey.

284 NukeAtomrod  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:49:21pm

re: #78 Occasional Reader

An observation on that; I think that by the time we have faster-than-light starships, even the most second rate of them will probably be armed with something more effective than a guy dangling out of the cargo hatch on a rope holding a shotgun.

Just as all of today's 18 wheeler trucks have turret mounted cannons or machine guns.

285 debutaunt  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:49:39pm

re: #272 brookly red

well, it's the tracking of HOW you vote that is the problem... the secret ballot is already under attack in regards to labor.

I was involved in a union vote. The NLRB was in cahoots with the union and the ballots were not secret.

286 Mr. Sandman  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:53:37pm

The only place there should be limits is in growing brains from the embryos. As long as no brain is created, there is no human consciousness/sentience, and thus no suffering or extinguishing of conscious human life for the research/treatment. I also have no problem with "cloning" in the sense of putting the patient's DNA into the cell nucleus, and thus growing say a liver or what have you for transplantation, with the patient's own DNA to sidestep rejection problems (so hopefully the new guidelines allow for this kind of "cloning" research).

287 Pietr  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 1:59:27pm

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote

Are you in electronics, or familiar with them? The 'risk' is NOT from an electromagnetic field-it's from a low power RF Transmission. It hasn't been studied long enough to determine actual potential risk-but I can tell you that RF energy doesnt get stopped by the firs layer of skin cells/epidermis. RF energy can make worm holes thru ones' body...I've seen some of it in my years around Transmitters (HF thru Microwave). If the antenna is touching the skin, said RF energy can more easily find a path to ground...

288 Lynn B.  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 2:03:04pm

re: #119 godfrey

Krauthammer went to Harvard Med School. The Harvard crowd tends to look after its own.

Meaning what?

289 nyc redneck  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 2:19:21pm

re: #279 funky chicken

Can you move? I keep saying that to people, and most of them think it's a nutty suggestion, but I'm a military spouse, so moving is a normal part of my life.

yes, eventually i will get out of the city. in the mean time i'm going to make a break from my negative friends.

290 pcalver  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 3:02:13pm

Charles Krauthammer proves once again why he is a national treasure. He has an uncanny ability to analyze even complex subjects and present their essence intelligibly and persuasively.

Preston C. Calvert, M.D.

291 Mr Spiffy  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 7:11:54pm

re: #50 Gretchen

They have Carville and Estrich, aren't they frightening enough without mutation?

but,thankfully they aren't mating

292 Proximate  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 8:10:07pm

We should all believe and defer to anyone who dons a lab smock. Even if they aren't a scientist. Even if they're only a politician deferring to someone who isn't a scientist... and is just wearing a lab smock.

Our respect for science should exceed any capacity we have for critical thinking, measuring risks, or assessing benefits.

/sarcasm off.

293 hopperandadropper  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 8:20:37pm

re: #273 LudwigVanQuixote

"These days we do most of our field tests of new drugs in Africa. Sometimes it works well and the companies involved are not *trying* to kill sick villagers. But, if the drug does not work so well... Well, we care about it as much as we as a society care about Darfur."

As someone who is involved in pharmaceutical development I can tell you that is wildly untrue. The point of testing drugs in humans is to generate reliable data that can be submitted to the FDA, EMEA, etc. to support the introduction of a new drug into the marketplace. It's extremely hard to do that unless the studies are performed in sophisticated medical facilities and carried out by people with experience in such studies. Running your studies in Africa would just about guarantee failure- they don't have enough trained personnel. Maybe some HIV drugs, malaria drugs, etc. are being tested in Africa because that's where the patients (at least certain kinds of patients) are. Otherwise the studies are done in the States, Canada, Great Britain, Western Europe.

294 Mr Spiffy  Fri, Mar 13, 2009 8:25:17pm

What Bush did was end federal funding for embryonic stem cell research; he left it open for the players and the money shakers. Kind of what Clinton and Dole did for Viagra.
semi/
The "guv'n'ment" already harvests umbilical cord fluid (To what purpose?)
I don't believe it is in the best interests of the people to promote the destruction of potential life* to further a cause that :
a) has not shown fruit
b) cannot attract investors from the private sector*
c) distracts from the demonstrated and proven benefits of adult stem cell research (1)

* no matter how you want to slice it, embryonic stem cell research promotes abortion.No facts or citations here, but given the propensity

295 kafir lover  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 5:09:53am

re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote

Ultimately, the question of should needs to be answered by our society as a whole. Very few in it, from the top down give a damn enough to even try to answer "should" responsibly. We should be asking these "should" questions. In fact, we must be asking these questions, but as a whole we are only whining and generally ignorant which leaves all the room in the world for the very abuses we fear.

That was a very good post, but I must disagree with your concluding statement. If we relegate morality to the governing body of the whole of society (think of the UN), the worst case scenario pushed through by the strong will come to fruition. Morality (what is) deals with current societal behavior - which changes - and is distinct from ethics (what should be).

296 Pupdawg  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 6:00:58am

re: #1 EmmmieG

It's all above his pay grade.

What isn't?

297 [deleted]  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 7:32:02am
298 [deleted]  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 7:35:52am
299 Noah_Vaile  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 11:30:13am

Where does Krauthammer get the idea that Obambam is "sophisticated"?

The "man" can barely string two sentences together (with only one necessarily making any sense) without his teleprompter. And then the words are someone else's. Even then he cannot answer a question about what he just read, uh, said.

He has the sophistication of an eggplant. We've made "president a la parmagiana" with him. Now we have to eat (sh)it for the next four years.

But "sophisticated"? Give me a break.

The guy's head is an empty urn with two big 'jug' handles on the sides.

300 Mr. Sandman  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 1:02:49pm

re: #299 Noah_Vaile

There you go again, repeating like a silly parrot the tired old cliches and catch phrases you've heard from Rush and your other buddies. The truth however is that getting a Bachelor's from Columbia and a law degree from Harvard means he's a smart guy. Whatever else you think of him, and you can think this notion is "elitist" or whatever else Rush tells you to think, you don't get accepted and succeed in such programs without being far smarter than the average bear (e.g., way smarter than you; stupid people tend to think they are smarter than they really are, this phenomenon has actually been demonstrated empirically).

301 Noah_Vaile  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 2:05:43pm

re:Mr. Sandman:
Asleep at the switch as usual. I think what I think, not what I am told by a sleepy headed know-little such as yourself. Getting a bachelor's degree from Columbia and a law degree from Harvard means he tested well and had friends affirming his actions. He shows few signs of intelligent life today. For whatever book smarts he may bear he has no moral or ethical light to guide him. He does not even believe in the Constitution that he swore to uphold. HE wants to change it... not uphold it. His words, not mine, telepromptered or not.

He has been influenced by racist propagandists, terrorists and socialist apologists. Everyone I have ever spoken to has said that they got their education after they had gotten their degree(s) and gotten out into the world. Seen how things really worked. That is where he got his ideas and education. He simply can't articulate those ideas without tele-prompting.

Sadly Mr "0"* has gotten his from terrorists and racists- the people he hung out with for years before and while in public office.

Your personal attack attack on me is typically reprehensible. A person who you do not know. Have never met. (Had better hope it stays that way.) With whom you disagree being the only thing that you do know about me. That attack shows the paucity of your argument and the feebleness of your position. I made a point. Can you refute it? No, you cannot. Instead you attack me with empty cliches. You do not know me or who my "buddies" are. You do not know my education level or where (or if) I went to school. You are a blow-hard no-nothing.

And talking about bears. You have laid your (bare) naked butt out on a rug of your own making for all to see. Now go back to sleep.

*That's a zero, by the way.

302 Noah_Vaile  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 2:18:17pm

re: #121 FlakMusic

Adult stem cells have in fact been shown to have truly promising leads.

Embryonic stem cells have produced nothing. Nothing at all.

Idiocy to close out adult research while promoting (and funding) dead ends.

303 Mr. Sandman  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 3:52:05pm

re: #302 Noah_Vaile

O.K., every once in a while I unnecessarily spice up the stew with a gratuitous barb. Sorry about that. Nonetheless, separate from that I did refute your point pretty well. And in response to the campaign talking points you've dug out of the grave yet again, he started his career in that Chicago district, and had to associate with some fringe characters, but his own views are mainstream center-left (a little too centrist, in fact, for my taste on the economy, in that if it were up to me we'd have put a number of mega-banks into receivership by now).

304 LudwigVanQuixote  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 5:36:23pm

re: #287 Pietr

Are you in electronics, or familiar with them? The 'risk' is NOT from an electromagnetic field-it's from a low power RF Transmission. It hasn't been studied long enough to determine actual potential risk-but I can tell you that RF energy doesnt get stopped by the firs layer of skin cells/epidermis. RF energy can make worm holes thru ones' body...I've seen some of it in my years around Transmitters (HF thru Microwave). If the antenna is touching the skin, said RF energy can more easily find a path to ground...

I am not in electronics, but I am a physicist and I have worked with enough electronics in my experimental work to know a thing or two.

First off, most of the media hype is about magnetic fields from cell phones. We both know how to calculate skin depth, and as a result, we both know that this bit of false science reporting is garbage.

As to low power RF, I do not doubt that high power RF can cook things.

However, RF does not interact that much with tissue. Proof of this is that you can use your cell phone with your head on one side and your hand on the other and still get signal. Further, we can both calculate dipole radiation and flux.

RF is not x-rays. There are no high energy interactions to worry about. Also, mm range wavelengths are not so good at exiting - or breaking molecular bonds. The only thing that likely thing that RF could do is cause heating.

So given that we both can calculate the flux, do a back of the envelope, asume that humans are mostly water and ask how much heating is possible assuming energy is conserved. You will find that we are talking milli-kelvin - and a healty body is self thermo-regulating over a much wider temperature scale than that.

Now, is it possible that there is some exotic interaction with some structures in the human body that I have not accounted for? Perhaps there is a resonance in nervous tissue or some sort of protien interaction I have not accounted for. It is possible, but extremely unlikely from the physics.

You claim that studies have not been done.

On the contrary, given the millions of people world wide who heavily use cell phones regularly, if cell phone usage were some sort of carcinogen, there would be darmatic eveidence that it is so, much like the data on ciagarrettes. This data does not exist.

The whole cell phones cause cancer thing is complete media garbage.

305 LudwigVanQuixote  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 5:41:07pm

re: #293 hopperandadropper

"These days we do most of our field tests of new drugs in Africa. Sometimes it works well and the companies involved are not *trying* to kill sick villagers. But, if the drug does not work so well... Well, we care about it as much as we as a society care about Darfur."

As someone who is involved in pharmaceutical development I can tell you that is wildly untrue. The point of testing drugs in humans is to generate reliable data that can be submitted to the FDA, EMEA, etc. to support the introduction of a new drug into the marketplace. It's extremely hard to do that unless the studies are performed in sophisticated medical facilities and carried out by people with experience in such studies. Running your studies in Africa would just about guarantee failure- they don't have enough trained personnel. Maybe some HIV drugs, malaria drugs, etc. are being tested in Africa because that's where the patients (at least certain kinds of patients) are. Otherwise the studies are done in the States, Canada, Great Britain, Western Europe.


You know what? You are correct.

I never should have used the word most. I am not even going to try to make an excuse.

However, there have been numerous drug tests done in Africa. Not all of them have had the most shining results. If this thread is not dead, I'll try to track down some links to them. My original source on this is a Medical doctor I trust (my brother).

However, this was not my main point. My main point is that the public in general only tends to get morally outraged about things that affect themselves. This is true even if I used a poor example.

306 LudwigVanQuixote  Sat, Mar 14, 2009 5:41:45pm

re: #298 ploome hineni

re: #293 hopperandadropper

re: #287 Pietr

why I LOVE LGF

OUCH!

Youtube Video

:D

307 Joan  Sun, Mar 15, 2009 8:09:40am

"How anyone as sophisticated as Obama can believe this within living memory of Mengele and Tuskegee and the fake (and coercive) South Korean stem cell research is hard to fathom."

Obama is a superficial thinker, essentially spineless, insular. He is arrogant, believing implicitly in his own rectitude, but all he understands is calculation. Which means he's an ethical idiot.

Leftist to the core, authoritarian, he believes absolutely that the end, which is the hegemony of the left, justifies whatever means are needed. Obama uses his natural charm, persuasive skill and adaptability to cajole and misdirect. This enables less charismatic cohorts to carry out the necessary means to consolidate power.

As for Mengele and Tuskegee and the South Korean stem cell scandal: they mean less than nothing to President Obama. He has no compunctions and no sense of history. Imagine a multicultural Ken doll and you're close to the truth.

308 hopperandadropper  Sun, Mar 15, 2009 10:12:15am

re: #300 Mr. Sandman

But, getting a bachelor's degree from Yale and a Harvard MBA didn't make George Bush a smart guy?

309 Noah_Vaile  Mon, Mar 16, 2009 10:27:27am

re: #303 Mr. Sandman

O.K., every once in a while I unnecessarily spice up the stew with a gratuitous barb. Sorry about that. Nonetheless, separate from that I did refute your point pretty well. And in response to the campaign talking points you've dug out of the grave yet again, he started his career in that Chicago district, and had to associate with some fringe characters, but his own views are mainstream center-left (a little too centrist, in fact, for my taste on the economy, in that if it were up to me we'd have put a number of mega-banks into receivership by now).

I didn't note any refutation at all. Saying "No! I disagree." Is not a refutation. Pointing out the useless law degrees that "0" received (he never did earn a living as a lawyer) does not show his intelligence but rather his ultimate lack of personal initiative. The little "0" remains an intellectual light weight who is worthless as a communicator without his (almost) ever present teleprompter. Which was my point and observation in the first place.

As for his teleprompter's socio-political views: Your being to the left of such notables as Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini does not make L'il "0"'s political position any where near centrist. He wants to junk the constitution and replace it with lord knows what. He wants to eliminate domestic energy resources and replace them with ultra-expensive and inadequate "green" energy sources. He wants to bankrupt America and bring it down. He wants to introduce failed socialist policies and remake the nation's economy into a pale failed shell of itself.

Yes. L'il "0" began his political career in a cess pool and has taken the stink with him to the White House. He spouts the same positions they do. He has the same politics they have. He has the same associations now as he has always had. He is an elitist know-nothing effectively uncommunicative and dumb without other men's words to read on his teleprompter.


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 Frank says:

It looks just like a Telefunken U-47!