Too bad they won't throw out the disruptors.

As a former homeschooling mom, this really bothers me. If this can be done as part of a divorce proceeding, could a judge order this in a case where married parents are in agreement? It may be crappy science, but I'm disturbed by government involvement in how a parent chooses to raise and educate their child.

Right on, Mr. Mills.
Sanity prevailed.

OK, so when her kids get in trouble in school for following the crowd, I would hold the judge personally responsible.

Just because it's "bad science' shouldn't mean the judge should set a bad precedent

Before I even clicked to this thread, I just knew a divorce was involved.

They tested two years above their grade levels? Obviously action must be taken to put a stop to that.

This is wrong. Our Constitution protects people from being punished for practicing their religion, and as much as this father wants to claim it isn't based in religion, and the Judge says it wasn't, the facts speak differently. We can't sit around and say "if you want to teach your children creationism, go ahead, just not in public school" we can't then say "oh yeah, just kidding. YOU HAVE to send your kids to school that teaches creationism".

These kids were home schooled 4 years and NOW the father has issue? Presumably he has some type of visitation rights. Why doesn't he counter with teaching on evolution during his time?

I disagree with this completely.

If other people can raise their kids to be stupid with no morals whatsoever, then this woman should be allowed to raise her kids any way she sees fit.

What law did she break?

This is just going to undo all the positive things the mother has instilled in them, ie study habits and such. So when their grades drop the school and judge should be charged with a crime.

I don't really see the problem, especially if the children are testing two years above their grade level.

This should scare the hell out folks… but many it will not.

re: #2 doppelganglander

As a former homeschooling mom, this really bothers me. If this can be done as part of a divorce proceeding, could a judge order this in a case where married parents are in agreement? It may be crappy science, but I'm disturbed by government involvement in how a parent chooses to raise and educate their child.

Doesn't the father have a right to say how the kids are educated? Why should the mother have the final say?

This is extremely disturbing. I don't homeshool and I believe in the Catholic view of evolution, however, the parent was clearly doing a better job giving a general education to her children than most public schools. Evolution has become the litmus test of homeschooling? Many public schools don't teach grammar, geography, logic or objective history, and if they do they do a completely terrrible job. Many public schools do a completely horrible job teaching math. Global warming, and a host of politically correct crap dominates a variety of subject matter. My 7th grader was informed Lincoln was a Democrat last week.

Can parents sue the teachers in public schools?

This will not end well. I am a firm believer in evolution but am very afraid of judicial activism. This blade cuts both ways.

I think this is judicial overreach. The parent who is homeschooling the children should have the final say in what they are taught.

How appropriate.

84 years ago today in Tennessee, a law went into effect prohibiting the teaching of evolution in public schools. This is the law that led to the Scopes "Monkey Trial".

I'm not a big fan of the mom's creationist teachings, but being forced out of homeschooling and dragged into the public school system? I dunno man. I wish our causes would stop shooting each other.

re: #11 Mr. Owl
The problem is the court deciding it. It should be a parent's choice.

As long as the kids aen't being taught creationism during science time I'm ok with it.

re: #13 MandyManners

I suppose it depends on whether they have joint legal custody or not - if so, he does have a say. Why did it take 4 years to find his voice?

re: #8 ArmyWife

This is wrong. Our Constitution protects people from being punished for practicing their religion, and as much as this father wants to claim it isn't based in religion, and the Judge says it wasn't, the facts speak differently. We can't sit around and say "if you want to teach your children creationism, go ahead, just not in public school" we can't then say "oh yeah, just kidding. YOU HAVE to send your kids to school that teaches creationism".

These kids were home schooled 4 years and NOW the father has issue? Presumably he has some type of visitation rights. Why doesn't he counter with teaching on evolution during his time?

The story doesn't address this issue but, could one of the reasons for the divorce be how the kids are schooled? Maybe the father put up with it for a long time and tried to persuade the mother to do things differently.

When was the divorce filed?

A judge in Wake County said three Raleigh children need to switch from home school to public school

Sure send the little girls to public school, in 6 months they will strutting around in short-shorts, texting and hooking up at the mall. The Mom who should be labeled a decent person is now ridiculed.

re: #13 MandyManners

Doesn't the father have a right to say how the kids are educated? Why should the mother have the final say?

If she's the custodial parent, I would think that would weigh at least 51%

re: #13 MandyManners

Doesn't the father have a right to say how the kids are educated? Why should the mother have the final say?

What if one parent was Jewish and the other Catholic? Vegetarian? How do the kids get raised?

re: #22 MandyManners
I read elsewhere that they were divorced because the father committed adultury/

re: #13 MandyManners

Doesn't the father have a right to say how the kids are educated? Why should the mother have the final say?

It might depend on circumstances. Assuming he is a normal, locing, invovled father, then yes he absolutely should have a say. If he's a d-bag then perhaps not.

"Kids, your daddy has some control issues."

I say this as a firm believer in the truth of evolution, the scientific method and the fundamental inborn right of individuals to go to heaven or to hell in their own hand basket. That judge should be disbarred and horsewhipped.

re: #26 UberInfidel67

I read elsewhere that they were divorced because the father committed adultury/

Irrelevant.

Who has custody?

It is an obvious violation of the first amendment.

"Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem"

re: #21 ArmyWife

I suppose it depends on whether they have joint legal custody or not - if so, he does have a say. Why did it take 4 years to find his voice?

See my No. 22, please.

Also, the story does not say what the grounds for the divorce are or who filed.

re: #22 MandyManners

All sides agree the children have thrived with home school, and Vanessa Mills thinks that should be reason enough to continue teaching at home.

From the article.

Wow, tough situation. On one hand, the father has a right to take part in decisions concerning his children's education.
On the other, the mother appeared to be doing a good job teaching the children at home and they were learning math, reading, etc better than they would in the public schools.
I'd think a compromise, such as a private Christian school might have been better... Of course compromise is something that seldom happens during divorce so that's probably a bit much to expect.

re: #30 Racer X

The mother has custody and I was commenting on someone asking why they were divorced.

re: #19 UberInfidel67

sorry, i realized my post wasn't worded well. i meant that i don't see why the judge would order this when these children are apparently so much more advanced than their peers.

I disagree with this decision. While I'm a proponent of evolution only teaching in public schools the mother as a private citizen has every right to teach her children "religious based" science and that would include intelligent design. A complete knowledge of science is also not a requirement for a well rounded individual since many people have flourished in other fields such as literature, music, arts, etc., with a feeble understanding of science at best.

re: #13 MandyManners

Doesn't the father have a right to say how the kids are educated? Why should the mother have the final say?

I'm concerned about what kind of precedent it sets. Also, there's a lot here that we don't know. Who has custody of the kids? It's apparent they're living with the mother, but if the father has joint custody, he certainly should have a say in their education. I don't think that say extends to convincing a judge to force the kids into public schools. I think his interests could be protected by allowing him to teach them evolution during his time with the kids, or perhaps they could agree to allow the kids to attend a co-op class where evolution is included.

More here:

But Venessa Mills and her supporters counter that Thomas was the bad parent who was committing adultery. In an affidavit, Thomas Mills admits to having an extramarital affair.

"He wants to bring attention to home schooling to put less attention on his adulterous affair," said Robyn Williams, a friend of Venessa Mills' who has been mobilizing home-school supporters over the decision. Williams called the decision an "injustice."

Thomas Mills could not be reached for comment. His attorney, Jaye Meyer, declined comment.

During the course of the case, which began in October when Venessa Mills filed for divorce, accusations have been hurled about her involvement in the Sound Doctrine church. Thomas Mills accused his wife of being in a cult, which she adamantly denied.

[Link: www.newsobserver.com...]

With the information given this sounds more like the kids are caught in the midst of a bitter divorce situation than anything else..

re: #24 sattv4u2

If she's the custodial parent, I would think that would weigh at least 51%

I don't know about N.C. but, in the state which had jurisdiction over The Kid's "custody", it's not about custodial rights as in who has a child the majority of the time. It's about parental rights and responsibilities because "custody" is interpreted as an ownership word.

re: #13 MandyManners

Doesn't the father have a right to say how the kids are educated? Why should the mother have the final say?

I hope that was the issue, not the homeschooling. If the kids are otherwise prepared, they can believe in a 6000 year old earth as far as I'm concerned. It must surely have been the rights of the father involved.

re: #5 sattv4u2

Just because it's "bad science' shouldn't mean the judge should set a bad precedent

Taking the father's feelings on the matter into consideration is bad precedent?

It's not a story about divorce or the circumstances thereof. It about an activist judge who is not acquainted with the US Constitution.

re: #16 jaunte

I think this is judicial overreach. The parent who is homeschooling the children should have the final say in what they are taught.

Possibly, but I can't help thinking that the decision that has been made here is the one that is in the best interests of the kids.

re: #11 Mr. Owl

I don't really see the problem, especially if the children are testing two years above their grade level.

Um- because their father has parental rights too?

re: #32 MandyManners

From a blog that I know nothing about. I'll look for better sources, however, if this is correct, not good for our darling daddy.

[Link: www.hsinjustice.com...]

re: #25 Racer X

What if one parent was Jewish and the other Catholic? Vegetarian? How do the kids get raised?

This is the problem with divorce: WE LET THE COURTS DECIDE HOW WE GET TO RAISE OUR KIDS.

There is no way around it that I know.

Can't the father teach the kids evolution? It isn't as if it is all of the curriculum that is at issue. The texts have a religious slant, so what, that's typical in lots of religious schools.

re: #16 jaunte

Yup, I suspect this will be overruled.

People have to remember, that no matter what we feel about creationism or evolution, neither one is illegal. If this is what the mother chooses to believe, so be it. On the other hand, if she is teaching them so well that they are above their peers, maybe the REAL science is sinking in.

re: #26 UberInfidel67

I read elsewhere that they were divorced because the father committed adultury/

Well, just kick his ass to the basement then!

Seriously, the reason for the divorce has little to do with this issue unless the children's schooling was THE reason.

WTF?! The father has rights too and didn't want his kids taught this stuff.

re: #44 Sharmuta

Taking the father's feelings on the matter into consideration is bad precedent?

NO ,, taking the judges "feelings" on it is!

re: #46 Jimmah

I don't know anything about the public schools choices there, so it's difficult to say what's best. Given that they have homeschooled for four years, I would be cautious about changing the setup, when their parents are going through a divorce.

If the father had grown his own weed, smoked a bunch of pot, and killed off all his sperm, he wouldn't be in this mess.

/

re: #27 Leonidas Hoplite

It might depend on circumstances. Assuming he is a normal, locing, invovled father, then yes he absolutely should have a say. If he's a d-bag then perhaps not.

But, is he that in the eyes of the law?

The Father is the POS here, if the 3 kids are turning into smart decent Christian children who will make good adults...WTF is his problem? He's just doing this to attack the Mother...its pretty obvious.

re: #11 Mr. Owl

I don't really see the problem, especially if the children are testing two years above their grade level.

Let's not forget to take into account the creationist garbage that's been given to them as science education.

Who picked 53 for the pool?

re: #56 sattv4u2

NO ,, taking the judges "feelings" on it is!

Where is that in the story?

re: #42 callahan23

Very spiritual people tend to under endow their spouses with marital pleasures.

That is a completely ridiculous statement. You know nothing about what actually goes on in another couple's bedroom. And even if one spouse is holding out on the other, that doesn't give a person the right to step out. Fail.

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Who picked 53 for the pool?

Let me check. Nope. I've got #127.

re: #38 doppelganglander
All joint custody means, in legal terms, is the right to spend the night. If a child is with one parent for a 24 hour period, they are allowed to make certain decision, such as medical emergencies. Joint custody does not mean both have a certain right to anything. The custodial parent is the final word...until some judge comes along...

re: #34 KansasMom

Wow, tough situation. On one hand, the father has a right to take part in decisions concerning his children's education.
On the other, the mother appeared to be doing a good job teaching the children at home and they were learning math, reading, etc better than they would in the public schools.
I'd think a compromise, such as a private Christian school might have been better... Of course compromise is something that seldom happens during divorce so that's probably a bit much to expect.

I know. It's such a pain.

re: #46 Jimmah

Possibly, but I can't help thinking that the decision that has been made here is the one that is in the best interests of the kids.

I cannot agree. The children are going be forced into a situation where they are required to believe one thing at home and another at school. They are too young for this kind of conflict.

re: #63 Sharmuta

Where is that in the story?

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem.

re: #38 doppelganglander

I'm concerned about what kind of precedent it sets. Also, there's a lot here that we don't know. Who has custody of the kids? It's apparent they're living with the mother, but if the father has joint custody, he certainly should have a say in their education. I don't think that say extends to convincing a judge to force the kids into public schools. I think his interests could be protected by allowing him to teach them evolution during his time with the kids, or perhaps they could agree to allow the kids to attend a co-op class where evolution is included.

Parents who have more time with the kids are no longer allowed to rule their lives as they once did.

re: #59 MandyManners

But, is he that in the eyes of the law?

Good point - I don't know the answer to that.

re: #52 UberInfidel67

People have to remember, that no matter what we feel about creationism or evolution, neither one is illegal. If this is what the mother chooses to believe, so be it. On the other hand, if she is teaching them so well that they are above their peers, maybe the REAL science is sinking in.

The problem comes when you try to introduce creationism into schools funded by taxpayer money.

If you really want to see this issue die, stop funding schools with tax money. You want your kids to attend a certain school? Pay for it? You want to educate your kids at home? Do so.

When it comes time for college, we'll see how effective your choices were.

re: #61 Jimmah

Let's not forget to take into account the creationist garbage that's been given to them as science education.

How do you know that?

Um, if she can't be trusted with the care of the children, why was she granted custody in the first place? Lawyers will line up to appeal this.

/maybe the judge can order the kids to eat their vegetables too

re: #46 Jimmah

Possibly, but I can't help thinking that the decision that has been made here is the one that is in the best interests of the kids.

I agree. Sounds like a very bitter divorce. This probably has much more to do with the parent's issues with each other than with concern about the kids' education.

re: #74 Killian Bundy

Um, if she can't be trusted with the care of the children, why was she granted custody in the first place? Lawyers will line up to appeal this.

/maybe the judge can order the kids to eat their vegetables too

and wash behind their ears

re: #69 sattv4u2

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem.

See. That's were freedom of religion comes into play. Add to that the kids are testing at 2 grade levels above the norm.

re: #39 jaunte

More here:

[Link: www.newsobserver.com...]

Just because he stuck his penis where it did not belong does not make him a bad parent.

HOWEVER, I'm beginning to suspect that this is not about his objections to the children's education.

Next up ... a judge removes my kids from my house because my teachings about the Second Amendment do not match those of the Obama administration.

/do it for the children

re: #54 MandyManners
You asked above about the reason for the divorce. I was just answering your question.

re: #55 Sharmuta

WTF?! The father has rights too and didn't want his kids taught this stuff.

/he's not the custodial parent

re: #55 Sharmuta

WTF?! The father has rights too and didn't want his kids taught this stuff.

I don't think anyone is saying the father doesn't have rights. What I and some others find disturbing is a judge ordering the children's education, which to me is usurping parental rights. It sets a bad precedent for other cases.

Big brother mandates government approved education in response to parents exposing their children to wacky beliefs. You may not like it, but what if next it's because the parents teach the heresy that global warming prevention shouldn't be their highest priority? Or that capitalism is good?

re: #47 Sharmuta

Not always. Physical custody v. legal custody. Physical means the child resides with Parent A, or Parent B or sometimes Parent A and sometimes parent B. Legal custody means the parent has the ability and right to make decisions about schooling, medical care and religion. This too can be sole or joint. More here:

[Link: www.nolo.com...]

It's also very interesting that Eugene Volokh's comments are followed by a posting including a link about Michael Newdow. Mr. Newdow's probably very happy to see the judge's ruling in this custody case, since his own similar litigative maneuverings failed a few years ago.

re: #76 sattv4u2

and wash behind their ears

And clean their room? Can I get a court order for that?

re: #43 avanti

I hope that was the issue, not the homeschooling. If the kids are otherwise prepared, they can believe in a 6000 year old earth as far as I'm concerned. It must surely have been the rights of the father involved.

Let's also not forget that the best interests of the children is the doctrine guiding courts now in determining parental rights and responsibilites.

re: #61 Jimmah

Let's not forget to take into account the creationist garbage that's been given to them as science education.

Yanno what? that is bull. I know a family that homeschools, very christian, and most likely teaches creation. On top of that we had a very enlightening discussion of water treatment and teh chemical reactions of chlorine when they brought all three of them here, to my work, as part of science. There is MUCH more to science than one issue.

re: #53 skynch

There's always the LFG archives. Go back there and reminisce in the few fleeting moments before the stick hits ya.

re: #77 Gus 802

See. That's were freedom of religion comes into play. Add to that the kids are testing at 2 grade levels above the norm.

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem.

But which lessons? All of them? Does she teach regular grade school subjects (the ones noted in the post) where the kids are testing two grade levels above, and then supplement that with religious instruction?

If the kids are testing two years ahead, what does that say about the test? Test the fricking father and mother on wedding vows. Test the fricking judge on the Bill of Rights.

re: #42 callahan23

Very spiritual people tend to under endow their spouses with marital pleasures.

WAIT A MINUTE.

Are you even suggesting that it is the WIFE'S FAULT that he couldn't keep his dick in his pants?

re: #79 OldLineTexan

Next up ... a judge removes my kids from my house because my teachings about the Second Amendment do not match those of the Obama administration.

/do it for the children

That's at least a little more concrete.

re: #42 callahan23

are you serious? Seriously serious?

re: #75 KansasMom

I agree. Sounds like a very bitter divorce. This probably has much more to do with the parent's issues with each other than with concern about the kids' education.

Unfortunately in most divorce cases it is the kids who suffer IMHO. I have seen it too many times and it hurts me just to think about it. Bitter divorces have the parents reverting to a kids role and the kids have to step up at act like parents. Tragic.

re: #82 doppelganglander

I don't think anyone is saying the father doesn't have rights. What I and some others find disturbing is a judge ordering the children's education, which to me is usurping parental rights. It sets a bad precedent for other cases.

Right on.

The government should be minimally involved. If the parents disagree with how the kids are taught / raised too bad. Join the club.

re: #78 MandyManners

Just because he stuck his penis where it did not belong does not make him a bad parent.

HOWEVER, I'm beginning to suspect that this is not about his objections to the children's education.

Yes, I think the need to change the homeschooling setup four years into it is a good clue.

This is governmental overreach. It is not for the government to tell a parent what they can or cannot teach their child. If the father objected, he could present the opposing view during his own time with the children.

I'm not anti-evolution. The scientific evidence is fairly well documented and quite solid enough to convince me that evolution is the most likely explanation for a whole lot of things.

But it is not for the government to say, "this belief is right" and "this belief is wrong." Do you want Congress, or a state legislature to have that power? Do you want some fool like Pelosi passing a law instructing judges to prevent parents homeschooling who don't believe in a welfare state?

This is why we have limits on government power.

"religious-based science curriculum”

Can you say "oxymoron?"

This is an ongoing divorce case- the custody isn't finalized.

re: #73 Leonidas Hoplite

How do you know that?

Even better, if it's not public school, why is it the public's business?

If the kids fail to meet a state criteria, they'll fail.

If they don't meet a college entrance criteria, they won't be admitted.

It's their parents' business.

Unfortunate that the parents would rather fight. But that's not at all unusual in a divorce. Shall we have judges order couples to stay married, too?

re: #72 gmsc
From what I am reading here, it is about the mother believing in creationism, so you misunderstand. I agree it shouldn't be in schools, but if a private citizen chooses to believe that and teach their children that, it is NOT illegal to do so. The court should butt out. I said nothing about it being allowed in PUBLIC school.

As someone beat up by nuns in school about science...
Let me state this..there is no connection between science and religion..I had it beat into me..There is no connection..You better believe in God and have faith..But if you can't recite the Gas laws you are pretty much f'd. And if the rest of the world wants to believe in myth or ID or any of that crap..Fine with me..Every high tech job..every single advancement in medicine, science, humanities, Astronomy, Physics..well the entire advancement of mankind will be made by those that seek the truth and follow the sciences..
/dang nuns

If the woman weren't using religious based home schooling, and the father still wanted the children to attend public school, would the judge have made the same decision?

In other words, was the judge simply ruling on the father's rights to have a say in the children's education, or did he find the children were not being adequately educated?

re: #90 Leonidas Hoplite

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem.

But which lessons? All of them? Does she teach regular grade school subjects (the ones noted in the post) where the kids are testing two grade levels above, and then supplement that with religious instruction?

I don't know. I think it would be irrelevant if all the studies contained a religious tone. The kids are testing 2 grades above the norm.

re: #87 MandyManners

Let's also not forget that the best interests of the children is the doctrine guiding courts now in determining parental rights and responsibilites.

Yes, but a judge deciding a religious upbringing is not in their best interests is raising some constitutional issues for me and I'm a agnostic.

re: #48 ArmyWife

From a blog that I know nothing about. I'll look for better sources, however, if this is correct, not good for our darling daddy.

[Link: www.hsinjustice.com...]

I'll have to read it later.

This reminds me of why I spent more than $100,000.00 in legal fees and pay-offs to my X to get him out of my life. I can only imagine the hell he'd put us through.

re: #53 skynch

i miss the old LGF. I'd rather read about terrorists than creationists. It's just overload now.

13 posts since 2005 ,, doesn't look like you participated much in the ballyhooed "Old LGF" either !

Obviously I have very strong feelings about this case. I think this is an example of hard cases make bad law.

There's a lot of hard questions here. We aren't told what kind of interaction the children have with other children--most of the homeschooled kid I know, and I know a lot--have multiple groups of friends they interact with a great deal. My own children have three separate groups of friends, and attend two different "class" situations.

We aren't told, and probably cannot know, how the father has felt about homeschooling over the years. I've known cases where the strife over the mother's desire to homeschool seriously damaged the marriage. Personally, I have seen father's reactions that run the gamut from pressuring the mother to put the kids back in to getting so involved he takes time off to teach one of the classes.

If the children were abused or behind in their school, I would say they should go back. Right now I think the judge is overreaching.

Also, homeschoolers are not going to take this lightly. We mobilize for legal reasons easily, and it is already happening.

re: #42 callahan23

Very spiritual people tend to under endow their spouses with marital pleasures.

And you know this, how?

re: #89 Bloodnok

There's always the LFG archives. Go back there and reminisce in the few fleeting moments before the stick hits ya.

It can still lurk. Looks like that is all it did anyway.

re: #99 Unakite

"religious-based science curriculum”

Can you say "oxymoron?"

Religion and science are not "either/or".

Just don't tell that to Darwin's ghost.

Think this through and I do not mean to be condescending to anyone: Do we want judges to decide how are children are educated? If there was neglect, something needed to be done, but they were testing above the public school system kids.A judge may not use a religious test for a decision like this.

See Article one, US constitution.

re: #52 UberInfidel67

People have to remember, that no matter what we feel about creationism or evolution, neither one is illegal. If this is what the mother chooses to believe, so be it. On the other hand, if she is teaching them so well that they are above their peers, maybe the REAL science is sinking in.

It's not about just the mother! Doesn't the father's beliefs have some input?

re: #61 JimmahSo what percentage of time during grade school does evolution take up? I think in a very rigorous school my kids have it for 3 chapters over grades 1-8 So about 6 weeks total, if that . Dilute that by all the math, social studies, reading, science, art, music, foreign language, PE, spelling, art, music and writing. So you think kids should be in a crappy public school until they are even or below their peers than two years ahead but exposed to evolution? Sorry, it is a bit like saying a school teaches British spelling of words like colour and humour, so the child can't get a good education.

Do most of you who agree with this ruling have kids in grade school?

Hot topic. Good points being made. My updinger is getting a workout.

(oh shit! did I type that out loud?)

re: #73 Leonidas Hoplite

How do you know that?

Look up to the top of the page, where you'll see this:

A judge in Raleigh, North Carolina, has ordered a woman who was home-schooling her children with creationist beliefs to put them in public school.

re: #116 Racer X

Hot topic. Good points being made. My updinger is getting a workout.

(oh shit! did I type that out loud?)

That got a ding from me!

re: #114 MandyManners

Does the mother get a say? The judge says no, only the father.

The sun goes down on the San Gabriel Mountains of California, in a transcendent beauty, making religious arguments based on words irrelevant.

re: #66 UberInfidel67

All joint custody means, in legal terms, is the right to spend the night. If a child is with one parent for a 24 hour period, they are allowed to make certain decision, such as medical emergencies. Joint custody does not mean both have a certain right to anything. The custodial parent is the final word...until some judge comes along...

You are wrong.

Parenting time and parental rights and responsibilities are the new parameters.

re: #114 MandyManners

It's not about just the mother! Doesn't the father's beliefs have some input?

If he has no custody, then only during visitation.

re: #114 MandyManners

It's not about just the mother! Doesn't the father's beliefs have some input?

I think the father could negotiate a custody agreement that would give him equal opportunity to teach his kids. But I don't think it's about that; I think he wants to take something away from his wife.

re: #40 FurryOldGuyJeans

With the information given this sounds more like the kids are caught in the midst of a bitter divorce situation than anything else..

I think you have the right of this, FOGJ. But doesn't the name of that church, "Sound Doctrine" just scream "cult" at you. I mean, presumably all churches think their doctrine is sound, or they wouldn't be in business at all.

Kind of like "Honest Harry's Used Cars."

re: #114 MandyManners

It's not about just the mother! Doesn't the father's beliefs have some input?

does not look like it...bad, bad move by the courts...you can't win em all

Speaking of children, I gotta' get The Kid ready for bed.

re: #8 ArmyWife

This is wrong. Our Constitution protects people from being punished for practicing their religion, and as much as this father wants to claim it isn't based in religion, and the Judge says it wasn't, the facts speak differently. We can't sit around and say "if you want to teach your children creationism, go ahead, just not in public school" we can't then say "oh yeah, just kidding. YOU HAVE to send your kids to school that teaches creationism".

These kids were home schooled 4 years and NOW the father has issue? Presumably he has some type of visitation rights. Why doesn't he counter with teaching on evolution during his time?

ummm..I meant "you HAVE to send your kids to a school that teaches evolution". I've fired my editor.

re: #114 MandyManners

It's not about just the mother! Doesn't the father's beliefs have some input?

I think that the fathers "input" is where this whole problem began!

re: #100 Sharmuta

This is an ongoing divorce case- the custody isn't finalized.

Mom has custody of the kids. If they were in public school and were truant, Mom would be responsible and could be cited, not Dad

re: #75 KansasMom

I agree. Sounds like a very bitter divorce. This probably has much more to do with the parent's issues with each other than with concern about the kids' education.

That is definitely the feeling I get on this too.

re: #70 MandyManners

Parents who have more time with the kids are no longer allowed to rule their lives as they once did.

Let me ask you this: why, after four years in which the dad agrees the mom did a splendid job homeschooling, is he suddenly objecting? Because it's to his advantage. Take a look at the description of the child support order, from the link posted above: [Link: www.hsinjustice.com...]

The judge awarded her the absolute minimum, making it financially impossible for her to continue homeschooling. The judge also disallowed her homeschooling costs as a valid expense. This saves the dad a ton of money. If the judge agreed to let her continue to homeschool, he would have had to award her enough money to live on (which apparently the dad can afford). So the dad raises objections to the homeschooling as a way to force the mom into the workforce. The judge, being IMO a religious bigot, goes along with it. This is not a compromise. This is a court forcing a woman to abandon her values and compromise the way she wants to raise her children because her cheating, cheapskate husband wants out.

re: #120 Ojoe

The sun goes down on the San Gabriel Mountains of California, in a transcendent beauty, making religious arguments based on words irrelevant.

*the telescope on the left is where Hubble confirmed the universe is expanding, therefore adding more evidence to the Big Bang theory.

re: #124 Alberta Oil Peon

I think you have the right of this, FOGJ. But doesn't the name of that church, "Sound Doctrine" just scream "cult" at you. I mean, presumably all churches think their doctrine is sound, or they wouldn't be in business at all.

Kind of like "Honest Harry's Used Cars."

If it's a cult, that's bad news.

We can't afford a siege to kill save them all right now. Hopefully they have a small compound.

The one thing that always bothers me about this kind of 'bitter divorce' quarrel, is it becomes difficult to extract the parents' spite from the genuine concern for the children. Is the father really concerned about the kid's science education or is he trying to get back at his wife? What if the kids really enjoy the home schooling? Isn't there another way to expand their science education? Dad can take them on the weekends and teach them anything he wants.

This judge is just wrong.

Creation science is wrong, but heck, any number of things are taught in public school that are wrong.

They teach that the military gave smallpox blankets to the Indians to kill them off. They teach that hundreds of millions of Africans died on slave ships headed for Virginia. They teach that the U.S. atom bombed North Korea.

They teach that all the races are equally swift of foot, decades of Olympic results be damned. Then they turn around and teach the same sort of equalism about swimming, thinking, suntanning, high altitude performance, and on and on. The same goes for the sexes, though even these PC schools have been loath to insist that women can lift just as much weight as men.

And then, when you get right down to it, all too many public schools don't teach much of anything. So it's not as if the kids are being deprived of major life chances by being taught wrong on evolution.

As long as the child is learning enough, all in all and taking into account their failure, for what it's worth, to learn about evolution, the home schooling has to count as legitimate. Algebra, English, history and chemistry are, frankly, more important for making your way in the world than evolution.

When the public schools do a solid job in even one of these categories, they can legitimately revisit the question of whether home schooling is an acceptable alternative to school schooling. Until then, the home-schooling parent whose children are meeting and exceeding standards and demonstrably working away at the curriculum has to get the nod.

IIRC, Isaac Newton was home-schooled for a while too, and not even supervised. Subsequently, he got himself into all sorts of religious foolishness.

So nip it. Nip it in the bud.
/

re: #116 Racer X

Hot topic. Good points being made. My updinger is getting a workout.

(oh shit! did I type that out loud?)

Easy there...

re: #123 jaunte

Children are often used as weapons against the other parent in divorce cases- long after the divorce too. I don't like seeing it, but for all we know this relationship may have been sour for a long time and the home schooling was intended to manipulate the children too. We don't know what her motivations were.

Regardless, until the case is settled, the father has a right to petition the court for help regarding these issues in what he feels is in the best interest for his children.

re: #133 OldLineTexan

If it's a cult, that's bad news.

We can't afford a siege to kill save them all right now. Hopefully they have a small compound.

... that will burn real fast so as not to leave any annoying talkers.

re: #64 doppelganglander

That is a completely ridiculous statement. You know nothing about what actually goes on in another couple's bedroom. And even if one spouse is holding out on the other, that doesn't give a person the right to step out. Fail.

You are right about the fact that I know next to nothing about what is going on in other peoples bedrooms.
But I know what feelings are stirred when world views are completely not compatible.

During the course of the case, which began in October when Venessa Mills filed for divorce, accusations have been hurled about her involvement in the Sound Doctrine church. Thomas Mills accused his wife of being in a cult, which she adamantly denied.

re: #39 jaunte

More here:

[Link: www.newsobserver.com...]

And yes, the partner being in a cult gives the other the perfect right to step out. Because when your are a facts based person and the other is absolutely not the feelings will inevitably die down. Irrevocably.
To be unfaithful cuts both ways relation/sex wise as well as being untrue (unfaithful) to the other's opinions and world view.

I'm surprised this hasn't come up before. The judge has clearly overstepped.

It's a slippery slope. Obviously, the courts have to step in when Christian Scientists deny their child life-saving medical treatment.

But what happens when a parent feeds their kids so much they can barely walk? What happens when parents are white supremacists who name their kid Adolf?

How about banning political instruction? I wonder what kosling would consider grounds for talking a child out of a school?

The line has to be drawn somewhere. But not here. Not with a mother who teaches her kids creationism.

re: #117 Jimmah

This is also at the top of the page

Venessa Mills was in the fourth year of home schooling her children who are 10, 11 and 12 years old. They have tested two years above their grade levels, she said. “We have math, reading; we have grammar, science, music,” Venessa Mills said.

What isn't clear to me is do the 'regular' subjects, the ones where the kids are testing two levels above their peers, have the religious slant, or does the overall curriculum have a religous slant because she supplements the regular curriculum with religious instruction

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem. ”My teaching is strictly out of the Bible, and it’s very clear. It is very evident so I just choose to follow the Bible,” Venessa Mills said.

While The Kid is brushing his teeth, I wanted to pop back in to say that this issue--to ME--is not about creationism v. science but about divorce.

re: #115 Gretchen

So what percentage of time during grade school does evolution take up? I think in a very rigorous school my kids have it for 3 chapters over grades 1-8 So about 6 weeks total, if that . Dilute that by all the math, social studies, reading, science, art, music, foreign language, PE, spelling, art, music and writing. So you think kids should be in a crappy public school until they are even or below their peers than two years ahead but exposed to evolution? Sorry, it is a bit like saying a school teaches British spelling of words like colour and humour, so the child can't get a good education.

Do most of you who agree with this ruling have kids in grade school?

Is this a general defence of teaching creationism in school? Attempting to trivialise the issue of teaching this nonsense to the level of a nit-pick over spelling conventions is pathetic.

re: #135 lostlakehiker

My favorite public school claim is "we teach critical thinking". They don't like to teach facts, so how do the kids learn to think critically? Like liberals with emotion.

re: #134 VioletTiger

The one thing that always bothers me about this kind of 'bitter divorce' quarrel, is it becomes difficult to extract the parents' spite from the genuine concern for the children. Is the father really concerned about the kid's science education or is he trying to get back at his wife? What if the kids really enjoy the home schooling? Isn't there another way to expand their science education? Dad can take them on the weekends and teach them anything he wants.

I agree. Field trips to the Smithsonian, reading National Geographic or whatever.

Poor kids, they are stuck in the middle of this mess.

re: #139 Truck Monkey

... that will burn real fast so as not to leave any annoying talkers.

Well, it helps if you find a cult that uses kerosene lamps and straw bales indoors ...

re: #114 MandyManners
I personally don't think his cheating ass deserves any input. If he was that damned concerned about religion, he wouldn't have been cheating on his wife. And you know what? Most of these people who think parenting is a 50/50 job? Not it is not. One parent always does more than the other. I really don't think this woman chose home schooling because of her religious beliefs. How many people here bitch about the public school system? Maybe she is really concerned about the education her kids get.

re: #143 MandyManners

While The Kid is brushing his teeth, I wanted to pop back in to say that this issue--to ME--is not about creationism v. science but about divorce.

ding ding ding ding. We have a winna.

Also, what if the mother had committed adultery instead of the father and he had filed for divorce based on that?

re: #124 Alberta Oil Peon

I think you have the right of this, FOGJ. But doesn't the name of that church, "Sound Doctrine" just scream "cult" at you. I mean, presumably all churches think their doctrine is sound, or they wouldn't be in business at all.

Kind of like "Honest Harry's Used Cars."

The problem as I see it is that there is not all that much information being given in the articles, and having been at the receiving end of a extremely bitter divorce I see a lot of the same symptoms in what is presented. The see the kids being used as pawns by at least one very angry parent in an attempt to "get back" at the other.

re: #129 sattv4u2

Mom has custody of the kids. If they were in public school and were truant, Mom would be responsible and could be cited, not Dad

She's likely been granted temporary custody. It might not be the final decision.

creation ism cannot be stopped, only restricted from public schools...this woman can otherwise teach her children anything she wants...it is not abuse...the judge is wrong

re: #121 MandyManners
Ah no. Been there, done that.

It shouldn't even matter if she is allegedly in a "cult." Unless it is an illegal cult she also has the constitutional right for free association. As long as other laws and rules of common sense behavior are being followed. A lot of organizations are considered cults by many people.

There is no question that the kids will be better off, in the sense of being more grounded in authentic scientific theory, being taught the theory of evolution.

However, in the US, there is no law against parents screwing up their kids' empirical understanding with whatever their pet dogmas might be. Nor should there be. This is a matter of parents' freedom to raise their kids how they see fit. Even if it is not objectively as fit as they might believe it to be.

But there are two parents. And whether the father's motives regarding his childrens' education are pure or not, his desires must alo be respected.

That having been said, I do not think that it is necessary to judicially rule that the kids must attend public school; mandating that their father or a tutor of his choice has the right to instruct the children in evolutionary theory should be sufficient.

re: #143 MandyManners

While The Kid is brushing his teeth, I wanted to pop back in to say that this issue--to ME--is not about creationism v. science but about divorce.

And a particularly nasty one at that.

re: #152 Sharmuta

She's likely been granted temporary custody. It might not be the final decision.

Perhaps not, but it IS the situation they're in now!

Poor kids, in any case.

re: #5 sattv4u2

Just because it's "bad science' shouldn't mean the judge should set a bad precedent

Agree. Bad science (just like bad anything) should not be the reason to create (is this a legal term?) bad law.

re: #134 VioletTiger

The one thing that always bothers me about this kind of 'bitter divorce' quarrel, is it becomes difficult to extract the parents' spite from the genuine concern for the children. Is the father really concerned about the kid's science education or is he trying to get back at his wife? What if the kids really enjoy the home schooling? Isn't there another way to expand their science education? Dad can take them on the weekends and teach them anything he wants.

The judge may or may not take the children's feelings into consideration. But many judges don't start doing that until a bit later into their teens.

re: #138 Sharmuta

Children are often used as weapons against the other parent in divorce cases- long after the divorce too. I don't like seeing it, but for all we know this relationship may have been sour for a long time and the home schooling was intended to manipulate the children too. We don't know what her motivations were.

Regardless, until the case is settled, the father has a right to petition the court for help regarding these issues in what he feels is in the best interest for his children.

One of my son's friends has been embroiled in a similar situation for the last 15 years, so I have to admit I'm not impartial about it. I've seen how one petty man in that case has distorted the lives of his son and ex-wife. This seems to be a similar case (and it raises my blood pressure) for reasons that have nothing to do with creationism or science.

re: #159 OldLineTexan

Poor kids, in any case.

Indeed.

re: #7 BatGuano

They tested two years above their grade levels? Obviously action must be taken to put a stop to that.

In everything but science. :)

/(humor. didn't read the whole article, so not sure this is true).

During the course of the case, which began in October when Venessa Mills filed for divorce, accusations have been hurled about her involvement in the Sound Doctrine church. Thomas Mills accused his wife of being in a cult, which she adamantly denied.

Not buying it. Without evidence of harm, such an accusation is just as spurious and suspect as an accusation of molestation. The desperate, and intellectually bankrupt, party making the accusation should lose the case on that basis alone, and maybe even do some jail time.

Who do I hate more, the mother who cripples her kids or the judge who oversteps his bounds? Tough choice.

And yes, they test 2 years above grade level, why are they crippled you ask? Because the standards in this country are already so low testing 2 years above is really nothing special. Indoctrinating them with a sort of religious doctrine that conflicts with mainstream and well supported scientific theory causes a ton of problems with being able to be critical of science in an intelligent way. I think it also fosters terrible logical skills. These kids are too young to be have been introduced to that. So far, they're only testing well in the very basic memorization phase of education. Know these grammar rules, know your multiplication tables, blah blah.

When it comes to critical thinking, these kids are going to be fucked.

re: #3 callahan23

Right on, Mr. Mills.
Sanity prevailed.

The children test 2 grades above public school level. At that rate of growth they could be 4 grades above public school level at the end of 12th grade. Then there is the liberal agenda coming down the pike from the Messiah's minions.

re: #150 MandyManners

Also, what if the mother had committed adultery instead of the father and he had filed for divorce based on that?

The court would still rule it was his fault.

The Sound Doctrine Church's Pastor:

[Link: www.sounddoctrinechurch.com...]

In 2006 Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick honored Dr. Mills again with a proclamation plaque for his courageous efforts to protect Detroit's most vulnerable citizens, which are Detroit's inner city children.

In 2006, Michigan governor, Jennifer Granholm called Dr. Mills a "role model."

re: #140 callahan23

Your statement is so idiotic, poorly argued, and utterly baseless, I'm not even going to bother. You sound like a bitter person who is trying to justify your own misdeeds by blaming your partner. I really don't care enough to find out if that's the case or not.

re: #166 Teh Flowah

Who do I hate more, the mother who cripples her kids or the judge who oversteps his bounds? Tough choice.

And yes, they test 2 years above grade level, why are they crippled you ask? Because the standards in this country are already so low testing 2 years above is really nothing special. Indoctrinating them with a sort of religious doctrine that conflicts with mainstream and well supported scientific theory causes a ton of problems with being able to be critical of science in an intelligent way. I think it also fosters terrible logical skills. These kids are too young to be have been introduced to that. So far, they're only testing well in the very basic memorization phase of education. Know these grammar rules, know your multiplication tables, blah blah.

When it comes to critical thinking, these kids are going to be fucked.

you don't know that...you are imposing your values on someone else

Something is very wrong in this case. The mother has been awarded a little more than $1300/month in child support. No alimony, apparently. The father makes $122,000/year.

My mother-in-law got more from my father-in-law in alimony, 15 years ago, with him having only a high school degree and her having a master's degree.

This whole thing is going to resolve messily, both in the case and on the site. Damn it. DAMMIT!

I have to wonder why public school was the only alternative to homeschooling.
The homeschooling was probably about to end anyway...not many single mothers can afford to stay at home to teach their children.
Seems like the father might have wanted to punish the mother with the education that she least wanted them to have.

I am proud of the Lizards. I didn't know exactly what the reaction here would be, and I am happy, having read the first hundred or so posts.

This sets a scary precendent, indeed.

My brother's ex used their two kids as weapons against him for several years. The oldest one rebelled, got pregnant at 17, finally married the worthless sperm donor, got pregnant again, and depends on my mother for a safety net due to said (only a little less) worthless husband.

The oldest girl's theatrics worsened her mother's health (already poor) to the point where she cut both kids loose. Somewhere in between another failed marriage and a bunch of "boyfriends".

The younger child (16) has been living with my brother now for 3-4 years and is an A student and active on the school drill team.

It's just strange to me how much blood is spilled, and how little is wasted. There's no clear-cut answer to anything in it I ever see.

I believe indoctrinating children with creationist dogmas, especially in a sheltered environment lacking any intellectual challenge/dissonance from the outside world, potentially qualifies as child abuse. If such a charge can be legally justified, it ought to be sufficient cause for the mother to either be stripped of her custody, or to be forced to share custody with her former husband, who would then be able to mitigate the contents of his children's education.

While the mother has full custody though, I find it nothing short of appalling for a judge to have the authority to dictate to her where and how her children should be schooled. The father's "visitation rights" do not constitute grounds for him to veto his children's educational curriculum.

And let's face it... If both parents were creationists, no judge would dare dictate them what to teach their kids. There are millions of fundamentalist families in the U.S. Who speaks up for THEIR children? If teaching creationism is child abuse, and the judiciary were acting consistently, then it ought to interfere with the upbringing of millions of American children. That's just not gonna happen. Making an exception in this case is unsustainable middle ground.

I also fail to see how it could be constitutional: We have the government essentially prohibiting the establishment of religion.

re: #171 albusteve

When SAT time comes around, then the kids will find out how well their mother educated them. They may also find out how much the public schools tried to indoctrinate them.

Thoughts:

1. The News & Observer in Raleigh, NC holds an annual birdhouse contest for kids. Homeschoolers ALWAYS have a winning entry in at least one category.

2. Gov. Beverly Perdue, Democrat, said in her first State of the State Address, that, even though there is a budget shortfall, more money would be spent on education in NC this year.

My mom taught me how to read. She knew how to read. She didn't know if there was a god, so she didn't teach me about that.

re: #162 jaunte

One of my son's friends has been embroiled in a similar situation for the last 15 years, so I have to admit I'm not impartial about it. I've seen how one petty man in that case has distorted the lives of his son and ex-wife. This seems to be a similar case (and it raises my blood pressure) for reasons that have nothing to do with creationism or science.

And I've seen the flip side where a father has had to fight the misandry of the court system for years to get his child away from a physical and emotional abuser. It would be nice if adults acted like adults but even more, if they acted like loving parents in deciding what's best for the kids and put their own selfish interests behind.

re: #153 albusteve

creation ism cannot be stopped, only restricted from public schools...this woman can otherwise teach her children anything she wants...it is not abuse...the judge is wrong

Hi Steve! gotta go soon..Clubbing tonight..
NO she can't! Period..
So let's say we got mama teaching moonunit that gravity is not 9.8 meters per sec per sec...and it's pretty safe to handle rattlesnakes during church.
So jumping off a cliff holding a snake is a matter of faith?
To not prepare a child to the world of Natural laws is to do a great disservice to your child..Some would say child abuse...

re: #174 KansasMom

Looks more like the father would prefer not to pay any more money than he has too in order to support those children with which he is completely and utterly consumed with new found concern.

re: #142 Leonidas Hoplite

This is also at the top of the page

We don't have the full picture here, certainly, but it's a safe bet that their biology instruction is negatively impacted by the teaching of creationism. And when they get to university they will very likely, if they believe what they have been taught, have problems with geology. atronomy, and cosmology, and any other sciences whose basic premises, theories and amassed observations are in direct conflict with their creationist beliefs. I have personal experience of the damage that creationism does to a persons ability to deal with science in general; and the length of time it can take to correct that damage - it should not be trivialised.

re: #144 Jimmah
Not at all, this isn't a public school situation. She is doing an excellent job teaching them generally, a far better job than most public schools can claim. I don't advocate teaching creationism in public schools. That's not the issue. The issue is that why is this minor matter a deal breaker for the mother's homeschooling? If the kids are two years ahead, I guarantee she's teaching most subjects in a manner superior to what the kids would get in the neighborhood. Did the jusge look at the neighborhood's school's grammar curriculium--it would be rare if there was one beyond very basic grammar? Are the books read at public school --which from my experience are pretty lame--better literature than the Bible?

Instead why not give dad the right to teach them evolution? At my children's public school they have a simple policy. The kids bring home a slip of paper informing parents they will be taught the scientific view of evolution at school, and the parents are encouraged to discuss the families' personal beliefs with their children, but it's not a topic for science class. Parents sign off, and it isn't discussed at school. Some parent tell kids, our religious views don't believe in evolution, we believe in creation, but evolution is what some scientists believe all the way to, this is all we believe. So far in 9 years, no parent has excluded children from the topic, and we have some very evangelical families.

re: #116 Racer X

LOL. Me too. I've clicked PLUS more times in this thread than I can remember. You all say what I'm thinking so much clearer than I do.

re: #164 Unakite

In everything but science. :)

/(humor. didn't read the whole article, so not sure this is true).

Mother claimed that science was covered in their lessons. I read several accounts of this case today and no one offered contradictory evidence. Anyway, their academic achievement should be enough to dissuade the judge from his attack on the constitution.

I had to step back and step out.

re: #176 OldLineTexan

Fathers sometimes are the better parent. It really comes down to the individuals involved, and the courts should be gender neutral.

re: #156 Salamantis

There is no question that the kids will be better off, in the sense of being more grounded in authentic scientific theory, being taught the theory of evolution.

However, in the US, there is no law against parents screwing up their kids' empirical understanding with whatever their pet dogmas might be. Nor should there be. This is a matter of parents' freedom to raise their kids how they see fit. Even if it is not objectively as fit as they might believe it to be.

But there are two parents. And whether the father's motives regarding his childrens' education are pure or not, his desires must alo be respected.

That having been said, I do not think that it is necessary to judicially rule that the kids must attend public school; mandating that their father or a tutor of his choice has the right to instruct the children in evolutionary theory should be sufficient.

Somewhat reluctantly agreed.

re: #92 MandyManners

re: #94 ArmyWife

re: #110 VioletTiger

Sorry I was oversimplifying on this.
But my #140 callahan23
might clarify my feelings and cool the moods here.
Sorry again but I didn't mean to offend. It is just that something similar in the vein of world view unfaithfulness happens in my relationship.
Her basic principle for our marriage was that I would never be allowed to be even once unfaithful. My basic principle for our marriage was that I could never tolerate her being in a cult or in a sect. Yet she becomes ever more a disciple of new-age/esoterics.

re: #186 Taqiyyotomist

LOL. Me too. I've clicked PLUS more times in this thread than I can remember. You all say what I'm thinking so much clearer than I do.

Ya didn't give ME one for #5 ! [Link: WWWHAAAHHH...] ,,, (lefty mode)

re: #131 doppelganglander

Let me ask you this: why, after four years in which the dad agrees the mom did a splendid job homeschooling, is he suddenly objecting? Because it's to his advantage. Take a look at the description of the child support order, from the link posted above: [Link: www.hsinjustice.com...]

The judge awarded her the absolute minimum, making it financially impossible for her to continue homeschooling. The judge also disallowed her homeschooling costs as a valid expense. This saves the dad a ton of money. If the judge agreed to let her continue to homeschool, he would have had to award her enough money to live on (which apparently the dad can afford). So the dad raises objections to the homeschooling as a way to force the mom into the workforce. The judge, being IMO a religious bigot, goes along with it. This is not a compromise. This is a court forcing a woman to abandon her values and compromise the way she wants to raise her children because her cheating, cheapskate husband wants out.

1,000+ updings!

re: #45 BatGuano

It's not a story about divorce or the circumstances thereof. It about an activist judge who is not acquainted with the US Constitution.

Damn. I registered 8 days before you, and you have four (five?) times as many posts. I need to catch up!

Even if the kids were going to public school, being taught regular science/evolution, they could still be getting creationist teaching at home or in church.

re: #142 Leonidas Hoplite

A lot depends on what curriculum she's using. When I was homeschooling, I reviewed over a dozen curricula. (I ended up taking a piecemeal approach.) Some of them are very similar to public school courses, with a course in religion on the side. Others include the Bible and Christian history in everything they do. The first-grade reader might be nothing but Bible stories and Susie and Timmy go to church, or it might be indistinguishable from what any school might use. There are also curricula associated with a particular denomination. I don't know if Sound Doctrine puts out anything like that, but if virtually all their members homeschool, they might, or they may recommend a particular curriculum.

re: #178 victor_yugo

When SAT time comes around, then the kids will find out how well their mother educated them. They may also find out how much the public schools tried to indoctrinate them.

probably so...believing in creationism does limit critical thinking unless you let it nor does it make you a cultist imo...and many public schools are not fit for any child...I don't like the state stepping in here...it's just wrong to persecute this woman however nutty someone else says she is...it is her child and she has done nothing wrong

re: #124 Alberta Oil Peon

I think you have the right of this, FOGJ. But doesn't the name of that church, "Sound Doctrine" just scream "cult" at you. I mean, presumably all churches think their doctrine is sound, or they wouldn't be in business at all.

Kind of like "Honest Harry's Used Cars."

Better research for an LGFer would be to actually find and read what they believe. I mean, really.

re: #189 Sharmuta

Fathers sometimes are the better parent. It really comes down to the individuals involved, and the courts should be gender neutral.

And it should be race neutral as well, but how many instances of that being violated have surfaced even in recent history?

re: #189 Sharmuta

Fathers sometimes are the better parent. It really comes down to the individuals involved, and the courts should be gender neutral.

His is a more stable household.

Given what I know about their divorce, she owned the majority of the "blame", but he had close enough to 50%.

I'm just left wondering if the difference between the two is nature, nurture, or if the older sister is an example to the younger. I just don't know.

Is there or is there not a sort of punch list of materials that must be taught, home school or not? Isn't this knowledge measured, home school or not? If it is tested and found deficient, would not the student be redirected back to public school? Seems to me that if a parent is failing as a home schooler then the child's interests become a legitimate matter of interest for the State. Otherwise, there would surely be failed folks who would simply declare home schooling and allow their kids to proceed through life utterly illiterate.

What am I missing?

re: #182 HoosierHoops

So let's say we got mama teaching moonunit that gravity is not 9.8 meters per sec per sec.

Mama would be right more than she would be wrong. Only at sea level does gravitational acceleration not require altitudinal compensation.

re: #185 Gretchen

Not at all, this isn't a public school situation.

That is true.

She is doing an excellent job teaching them generally, a far better job than most public schools can claim. I don't advocate teaching creationism in public schools. That's not the issue. The issue is that why is this minor matter a deal breaker for the mother's homeschooling?

As for regarding the teaching of creationism as a small matter, don't expect to find agreerment with me there. See #184.

re: #177 medaura18586

I believe indoctrinating children with creationist dogmas, especially in a sheltered environment lacking any intellectual challenge/dissonance from the outside world, potentially qualifies as child abuse

Seriously? So, beating your kids and teaching them as you note are equivalent? If both parents agreed and were doing the teaching would you advocate child services remove them from their home and put them in foster care?

re: #191 callahan23

I'm not here to offer counsel on your relationship, but most people take issue with infidelity.

re: #182 HoosierHoops

Hi Steve! gotta go soon..Clubbing tonight..
NO she can't! Period..
So let's say we got mama teaching moonunit that gravity is not 9.8 meters per sec per sec...and it's pretty safe to handle rattlesnakes during church.
So jumping off a cliff holding a snake is a matter of faith?
To not prepare a child to the world of Natural laws is to do a great disservice to your child..Some would say child abuse...

nevertheless it is not illegal...the courts are about the LAW...not personal belief

Doesn't mention science.

Complying with the State of North Carolina Homeschool Law
Legal Requirements For Operating A Home School In North Carolina
During the 1988 session of the North Carolina General Assembly, Article 39 of chapter 115C of the General Statutes was amended to allow home instruction, under certain conditions, as a means of complying with compulsory school attendance requirements. The following is a summary of that law.

Definitions:
Home school - A non-public school in which one or more children of not more than two families or households receive academic instruction from parents or legal guardians, or a member of either household.

Duly authorized representative of the state - the Director, Division of Non-Public Education or his staff.

Requirements:
Notify the Department of Administration, Division of Non-Public Education of your intent to operate a school and include your school name, and name of chief administrator.
Certify that the persons providing the academic instruction hold at least a high school diploma or its equivalent.
Maintain attendance records on each student.
Maintain immunization records on each student.
Operate on a regular schedule, excluding reasonable holidays and vacations, during at least nine calendar months of the year.
Administer a nationally standardized test, or other equivalent measurement, that measures achievement in the areas of English grammar, reading, spelling, and math, to every student each year, and maintain the results on file for one year, subject to inspection by a duly authorized representative of the State.
Notify the Department of Administration, Division of Non-Public Education, when closing your school.

Another thought:

North Carolina allows Charter Schools. These are private schools where the owners obtain and maintain their own facilities, meet public school standards, and establish their own method of teaching. There is a limit of 100 Charter Schools in NC. The National Education Association (NEA) has a stranglehold on the Legislature to prevent lifting or removing that cap. Everyone agrees that the Charter Schools do a good job of educating, and often do a better job.

Creationism is not child abuse. I disagree strongly with substituting a religious idea for scientific theory, but calling the teaching of a religious creation story child abuse minimizes the horror of the real thing.

re: #195 VioletTiger

Even if the kids were going to public school, being taught regular science/evolution, they could still be getting creationist teaching at home or in church.

True, but thats not the issue.

How many more people that homeschool do so because they prefer to do what mrs Mills is doing, that BOTH parents agree too? Should a judge rule that they also be sent to public school? Again, heed the judges 'feeling"

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem.

re: #184 Jimmah

We don't have the full picture here, certainly, but it's a safe bet that their biology instruction is negatively impacted by the teaching of creationism.

Not a safe bet, in my view, if they are testing two levels better.

To paraphrase one of Instapundit's running gags:

They said if I voted for McCain, the 1st Amendment would be under assault ...and they were right!

re: #201 The Shadow Do

Seems to me that if a parent is failing as a home schooler then the child's interests become a legitimate matter of interest for the State.

But if the parent appears to be succeeding, with flying colors, at home schooling, why does the state still need to step in?

re: #202 victor_yugo

Mama would be right more than she would be wrong. Only at sea level does gravitational acceleration not require altitudinal compensation.

ha!...see!

re: #206 albusteve

Not to mention private schools that do not teach evolution. Do we torch them?

We seem to lose site of the fact that evolution is not the sum total of "science".

re: #131 doppelganglander

You are very perceptive.

re: #213 victor_yugo

The State abhors a power vacuum.

re: #198 Taqiyyotomist

Better research for an LGFer would be to actually find and read what they believe. I mean, really.

[Link: www.sounddoctrinechurch.com...]

Wish Granted!
/Manny the Mastodon, "Ice Age"

re: #202 victor_yugo

Mama would be right more than she would be wrong. Only at sea level does gravitational acceleration not require altitudinal compensation.

The differences are minimal.

The article has a mathematical model, and a very fun chart of "gravity by city".

re: #169 NelsFree

The Sound Doctrine Church's Pastor:

[Link: www.sounddoctrinechurch.com...]

In 2006 Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick honored Dr. Mills again with a proclamation plaque for his courageous efforts to protect Detroit's most vulnerable citizens, which are Detroit's inner city children.

In 2006, Michigan governor, Jennifer Granholm called Dr. Mills a "role model."

Did you read the whole of that link? Dr. Mills is a protege of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, and appears to move amongst some of the Hollywood glitterati. Seems to be very much a big self-promoter. People like him really stick in my craw.

I'm 100% agreed that if both parents were on-side with the home-schooling, then the State shouldn't interfere. But by getting involved in a messy divorce, these parents have effectively invited State intervention.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theory loon, but I do believe there is a precedent being set deliberately. The Creationism thing can be a convenient excuse for gubmint wannabe rulers to force children into public education indoctrination system in the future, if cases like this come out in the favor of the State.

/Taking off the latest Prada™ Spring Collection tinfoil chapeau/

Regardless of implications, real or hypothetical, this is none of the State's business. The mother is not abusing her children. She is providing a good education for them (as evidenced by tests). Just because they are being raised in a certain belief system does not automatically preclude their questioning it when they grow up. So, even though I do not believe in Young Earth Creationism, I am on the side of the Mom. The State needs to butt out. And Dad needs to realize that calling Armed Nanny™ to solve something like this is simply not a way to go.

re: #168 victor_yugo

The court would still rule it was his fault.

Bullshit.

home-schooling your children is child abuse

re: #202 victor_yugo

Mama would be right more than she would be wrong. Only at sea level does gravitational acceleration not require altitudinal compensation.

LOL
So at the surface of the earth..Gravity is 9.8/m2 and as everybody knows as you leave Earth Gravity gets weaker..And gravity always points to the singular point of mass..(black hole stuff)
What happens when you travel to the center of the Earth? Does gravity get stronger or weaker? and why?

re: #202 victor_yugo

Mama would be right more than she would be wrong. Only at sea level does gravitational acceleration not require altitudinal compensation.

Gravitational acceleration without altitudinal compensation!

/or was that taxation without representation?

Do I say something? Do I not? I will speak up.

My daughter will be attending high school this fall. This will be her first time back in public school since second grade. I pulled her out after a serious of their own tests indicated they were not teaching her at her ability level.

She is very much ahead in her schooling; as she should be, because she is gifted. She has different groups of friends. I have watched her make mistakes, learn to correct them, learn to see when a friend was not a good one. I believe in her as a person, and I am proud of the character I see her developing.

So why is she going back? Her father really, really, really wants her in high school. I decided it was far more to her advantage to grow up in a happy home that to have one type of schooling or the other. Is this hard on me? Yes. Unbelievably hard. I have cried over this. But he is not an adulterous jerk; I am proud of the job he has done as a father, and he should have rights here.

The school is a good one, and she has nice friends at that she will be starting with. We agreed to compromise; I still get to teach her English and history, since those are the areas I least trust the school system, and also because I want to continue to have some time with her this coming year. She will be leaving the company of homeschooling friends she has known for years, but I hope we can set it up so she can still communicate with them.

Will this turn out to be the right decision? I don't know yet, but I hope it will go well. I'll let you all know.

They certainly SOUND cultish:

[Link: carriedcross.org...]

re: #203 Jimmah

But it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It is one small topic. I think Global Warming is the biggest load of crap foisted on our society. My children get it shoved down their throats during "science" class where they have to watch Al Gore, during literature where they discuss if a character in a story would believe in global warming, in social studies where they learn how much worse American's carbon footprints are than Africans, blah, blah, blah. Brainwashing happens in public schools too.

re: #200 OldLineTexan

His is a more stable household.

Given what I know about their divorce, she owned the majority of the "blame", but he had close enough to 50%.

I'm just left wondering if the difference between the two is nature, nurture, or if the older sister is an example to the younger. I just don't know.

And stability is very important for children. Kids are resilient and will adapt to new situations, but if there is daily chaos in the house, that's not good for the kids. And that's any house- 2 parent, single parent, whatever.

But you raise good questions about nature vs. nurture. Could be the younger child has a better head on his/her shoulders.

re: #205 ArmyWife

I'm not here to offer counsel on your relationship, but most people take issue with infidelity.

And I was taking issue with intellectual infidelity and the promises given.

re: #215 ArmyWife

We seem to lose site of the fact that evolution is not the sum total of "science".

No, but it is the fulcrum of the fight between those who can see no balance between the Establishment Clause and the Prohibition Clause of the First Amendment.

re: #224 SpaceJesus

/?

re: #208 NelsFree

Another thought:

North Carolina allows Charter Schools. These are private schools where the owners obtain and maintain their own facilities, meet public school standards, and establish their own method of teaching. There is a limit of 100 Charter Schools in NC. The National Education Association (NEA) has a stranglehold on the Legislature to prevent lifting or removing that cap. Everyone agrees that the Charter Schools do a good job of educating, and often do a better job.

Charters aren't private. They are public schools operated by boards of parents or other entities.

re: #219 OldLineTexan

The differences are minimal.

The article has a mathematical model, and a very fun chart of "gravity by city".

I am ROYALLY bummed that Seattle is not on that list. With Seattle being where the Discovery Institute is located must have some anomalous effect on gravity somehow.

///

re: #215 ArmyWife

Not to mention private schools that do not teach evolution. Do we torch them?

We seem to lose site of the fact that evolution is not the sum total of "science".

every issue cannot be nuanced to death...people want to endlessly argue and talk their point of view to death...there are winners and there are losers...the court is wrong in this case, in fact very disturbing when you take this judgement to another level...this is Big Brother plain and simple

the supreme court needs to hurry up and rule on this issue, and finally outlaw this practice which is detrimental to the development of America's children

re: #221 Iron Fist

Just an idle thought. How do you think this judge would have found in the Eilian Gonzales case? How was that case handled by the Clinton Administration?

It is an interesting comparison. Say what you may of creationism, it can be no more wrong than the indoctrination in Communist Cuba.

That was a case where it was so interesting to hear so many of my leftist friends suddenly concerned with paternal rights. I kept telling them, "He's Cuban- he doesn't have any rights!"

re: #224 SpaceJesus

home-schooling your children is child abuse

I won't down-ding that, because at your home, I am sure that is true.

re: #237 SpaceJesus

the supreme court needs to hurry up and rule on this issue, and finally outlaw this practice which is detrimental to the development of America's children

Sarc? please?

What happened to the First Amendment? The state should not have this much power. I do not believe in creationism. I do believe in freedom.

re: #224 SpaceJesus

In the intersts of fairness and full disclosure, I down dinged you for that because I strenuously disagree.

re: #237 SpaceJesus

the supreme court needs to hurry up and rule on this issue, and finally outlaw this practice which is detrimental to the development of America's children

Divorce?

re: #225 HoosierHoops

LOL
So at the surface of the earth..Gravity is 9.8/m2 and as everybody knows as you leave Earth Gravity gets weaker..And gravity always points to the singular point of mass..(black hole stuff)
What happens when you travel to the center of the Earth? Does gravity get stronger or weaker? and why?

and no fair if Christheprofessor answers this question...

re: #222 Natasha

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theory loon, but I do believe there is a precedent being set deliberately. The Creationism thing can be a convenient excuse for gubmint wannabe rulers to force children into public education indoctrination system in the future, if cases like this come out in the favor of the State.

/Taking off the latest Prada™ Spring Collection tinfoil chapeau/

Regardless of implications, real or hypothetical, this is none of the State's business. The mother is not abusing her children. She is providing a good education for them (as evidenced by tests). Just because they are being raised in a certain belief system does not automatically preclude their questioning it when they grow up. So, even though I do not believe in Young Earth Creationism, I am on the side of the Mom. The State needs to butt out. And Dad needs to realize that calling Armed Nanny™ to solve something like this is simply not a way to go.

I agree. This could, indeed set a dangerous precedent.

Last thought, then I have to work.

Lets say mom, during homeschool MATH class teaches kiddies that 2+2= 97. Oh well ,,we need future McDonalds Workers.

Shuold judges be stepping in there too and forcing the kids to public schools?

re: #239 OldLineTexan

I won't down-ding that, because at your home, I am sure that is true.

Ouch. Nice one.

re: #233 Dar ul Harb

I'm introducing a new symbol for "Forgot your sarc tag?"

/?

re: #201 The Shadow Do

Is there or is there not a sort of punch list of materials that must be taught, home school or not? Isn't this knowledge measured, home school or not? If it is tested and found deficient, would not the student be redirected back to public school? Seems to me that if a parent is failing as a home schooler then the child's interests become a legitimate matter of interest for the State. Otherwise, there would surely be failed folks who would simply declare home schooling and allow their kids to proceed through life utterly illiterate.

What am I missing?

In Oregon you have to tests your children at certain benchmarks--at your expense. If they fall below the fifteenth percentile, the state gets involved. They can make you put your children back. I don't think it's ever happened.

I had a friend whose brilliant son (I teach him science--smart kid) on his 3rd grade test looked at the math portion, decided it was too easy for him to bother with, and left it blank.

Test scores: 99th percentile, 99th percentile...0 percentile.

She could have killed him. No, he didn't have to go back to school.

re: #198 Taqiyyotomist

Better research for an LGFer would be to actually find and read what they believe. I mean, really.

I'll stand by that, thank you. If their doctrine really is sound, it should be evident in their works, should it not? Methinks they doth protest too much.

re: #221 Iron Fist

Just an idle thought. How do you think this judge would have found in the Eilian Gonzales case? How was that case handled by the Clinton Administration?

It is an interesting comparison. Say what you may of creationism, it can be no more wrong than the indoctrination in Communist Cuba.

If I had 1,000 updings you would get them all for that comment.

re: #225 HoosierHoops

What happens when you travel to the center of the Earth? Does gravity get stronger or weaker? and why?

It gets weaker, because you now have the Earth's mass around all steradians. Once you get to the center, all gravity of the Earth's mass is equally counteracted in all directions, canceling out.

Good luck getting out of there, though.

re: #239 OldLineTexan

I won't down-ding that, because at your home, I am sure that is true.

where's the petard!...it was just here

re: #210 sattv4u2

True, but thats not the issue.

How many more people that homeschool do so because they prefer to do what mrs Mills is doing, that BOTH parents agree too? Should a judge rule that they also be sent to public school? Again, heed the judges 'feeling"

Her lessons also have a religious slant, which the judge said was the root of the problem.

I see your point. My point is that education goes on beyond actual school hours. Public school may take away 'the religious slant' of their education, but the parents can still teach them anything they see fit in their own home.

re: #237 SpaceJesus

the supreme court needs to hurry up and rule on this issue, and finally outlaw this practice which is detrimental to the development of America's children

correct. The SUPREMES need to rule that this judge was out of bounds!

Oh ,, wait ,, thats not what you meant, right ?

nevahmind!

re: #227 EmmmieG

It sounds like your daughter has a good head on her shoulders and will do well, whether in school or homeschooled.
I really do admire parents who homeschool (and do it well). I'm not sure I'd ever be up to the task.

re: #224 SpaceJesus

home-schooling your children is child abuse

The drug thread is the one before this one. You do not have to take the crack pipe out of your mouth, just take one hand off the said pipe to scroll down. Then you can post away, doped-up as you apparently are.

We'll be seeing the same heavy-handed judicial action liberating Muslim students from their fundamentalist schools here, right?

[(infidel) crickets]

re: #235 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am ROYALLY bummed that Seattle is not on that list. With Seattle being where the Discovery Institute is located must have some anomalous effect on gravity somehow.

/// ///

Well, the SUCKING would probably cause the local gravitational field to APPEAR stronger.

I may need a stimulus grant to study this.

re: #220 Alberta Oil Peon

"Did you read the whole of that link?"

I'm only the messenger.
/Not Wanting To Have Anyone Shoot The Messenger

re: #254 VioletTiger

Please see my 246

Ok I'm out. Later Lizards. I don't want to watch what happens to the troll.