Let’s Be Honest with the Kids

Science • Views: 5,044

Christopher Hitchens makes excellent points about the Texas Board of Education and its young earth creationist chairman Don McLeroy, who apparently won’t be satisfied until the whole world is laughing at his state: Hitchens: Why Texas Is Right on Teaching Evolution.

I find myself somewhat drawn in by the quixotic idea that we should “teach the argument.” I am not a scientist, and all that I knew as an undergraduate about the evolution debate came from the study of two critical confrontations. The first was between Thomas Huxley (Darwin’s understudy, ancestor of Aldous and coiner of the term “agnostic”) and Bishop Samuel Wilberforce (third son of the great Christian emancipator William) at the Oxford University Museum in 1860. The second was the “Monkey Trial” in Dayton, Tenn., in 1925, which pitted the giant of Protestant fundamentalism, William Jennings Bryan, against Clarence Darrow and H. L. Mencken. Every educated person should know the arguments that were made in these transatlantic venues.

So by all means let’s “be honest with the kids,” as Dr. Don McLeroy, the chairman of the Texas education board, wants us to be. The problem is that he is urging that the argument be taught, not in a history or in a civics class, but in a biology class. And one of his supporters on the board, Ken Mercer, has said that evolution is disproved by the absence of any transitional forms between dogs and cats. If any state in the American union gave equal time in science class to such claims, it would certainly make itself unique in the world (perhaps no shame in that). But it would also set a precedent for the sharing of the astronomy period with the teaching of astrology, or indeed of equal time as between chemistry and alchemy. Less boring perhaps, but also much less scientific and less educational.

The Texas anti-Darwin stalwarts also might want to beware of what they wish for.

Read the whole thing…

Here’s video of McLeroy misrepresenting the words of Stephen J. Gould, and demonstrating his appalling ignorance about everything from “Darwin’s Big Bang” (yes, really!) to the “Cambrian Explosion,” which he describes as “sudden” — when in the real world, this so-called explosion lasted between 10 and 20 million years.

Youtube Video

This is the chairman of the Texas Board of Education, recently appointed by Republican governor Rick Perry for a second term. The man in charge of educating Texas schoolchildren. Watch it and weep.

Jump to bottom

799 comments
1 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:25:22pm

We'd better watch it.
With people like this running our educational system, we might end up with a total incompetent as President.

2 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:25:36pm
But it would also set a precedent for the sharing of the astronomy period with the teaching of astrology

whoa whoa whoa

Is Hitch implying that astrology isn't true?!

/

3 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:26:12pm

re: #1 Kosh's Shadow

HA ! Too late !

4 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:26:14pm

I'll take the first troll at number 124 and first meltdown at 172.

5 NYCHardhat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:26:25pm

Polishing the brass on the Titanic....

6 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:26:47pm

Yes, let's be honest, and show Intelligent Design, aka Scientific Creationism (aka Biblical account of creation) for the fraud it is.

Fire McLeroy!

7 LGoPs  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:27:53pm
But it would also set a precedent for the sharing of the astronomy period with the teaching of astrology,

A Hitchens analogy and very apt, coming from a brilliant intellect.

8 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:28:01pm

Cmon .. lets just teach voodoo to our kids and get it over with. I mean .. zombies have been proven to be environmentally friendly, and so cute too ! And no Haitiian has ever been wrong .. (without being shot) so there is nothing to lose !

9 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:28:05pm

I'd admire Hitch if he wasn't such a fucking anti-Semite.

10 Racer X  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:28:08pm

$5 on #97.

11 brookly red  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:28:13pm

re: #1 Kosh's Shadow

We'd better watch it.
With people like this running our educational system, we might end up with a total incompetent as President.

/couldn't happen here.

12 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:28:21pm

BTW, WTF is CJW? He downdinged this thread. CJW, come out and comment, or are you too chicken to do so?

13 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:29:10pm

re: #12 Honorary Yooper

Nah .. he's a chicken.

14 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:29:16pm

Young rocks. I couldn't get past young rocks in the vid. I picture young rocks on their way to grade school, little rock bookbags over their hard little shoulders.

15 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:29:19pm

McLeroy: "...These wonderful opponents of mine..."
Passive aggressive liar.

16 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:29:19pm

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

Yes, let's be honest, and show Intelligent Design, aka Scientific Creationism (aka Biblical account of creation) for the fraud it is.

Fire McLeroy!

Sadly, Governor Perry won't do that. Too much our base in Texas in creationist. And that, is a big problem.

17 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:29:38pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'll take the first troll at number 124 and first meltdown at 172.

You're on! First troll by #129, and first meltdown at #145.

18 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:29:56pm

Down-dinger CJW is really quick on the draw tonight.

19 Bloodnok  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:30:02pm

Wow. CJW works fast. Downding!

20 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:30:21pm

re: #13 Buster Bunny

Nah .. he's a chicken.

Too bad, CJW's such a chickenshit. I'd like to see him defend McLeroy.

21 NYCHardhat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:30:43pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'll take the first troll at number 124 and first meltdown at 172.

You got it. I'm going to take 98 for the troll and 112 for the meltdown. I think people are restless tonight.

22 Racer X  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:31:00pm

re: #18 Charles

Down-dinger CJW is really quick on the draw tonight.

Invite him to comment. Or get shut out.

23 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:31:34pm

re: #21 NYCHardhat

I smell a RUMBLE !

/old WWF fan

24 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:31:51pm

re: #22 Racer X

Invite him to comment. Or get shut out.

We're trying. CJW's too much of a chickenshit to comment.

25 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:32:17pm

"Somebody's go to stand up to experts!"
--Don McLeroy

26 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:32:31pm

got...

27 Bobblehead  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:32:34pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'll take the first troll at number 124 and first meltdown at 172.

LOL They've probably been waiting to hop on all day.

28 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:32:48pm

re: #7 LGoPs

A Hitchens analogy and very apt, coming from a brilliant intellect.

I think his comment is just the sort of thing a Capricorn would say.

29 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:33:29pm

re: #21 NYCHardhat
Youse guys are way low. troll under 100 maybe, meltdown, not until 250s. I'll take troll at 97 and meltdown at 257 Alex.

30 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:33:30pm

I've been spending a lonely hour or so defending the LGF point of view over at hot air Latest one is someone who thinks he's proven the existence of god. Fun times!

31 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:33:35pm

re: #25 jaunte

"Somebody's go to stand up to experts!"
--Don McLeroy

Someone needs to challenge ignorants. Otherwise we'll end up with TX kids that cant even tie their own shoelaces and expect the REST of us to foot the bill for their trailers.

32 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:34:05pm

re: #28 Occasional Reader
Goatist!

33 Racer X  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:34:08pm

I don't understand when people down ding a post or a comment and then do not chime in on why.

Give your input. Tell us why you disagree. If it is personal belief then post that.

34 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:34:29pm

re: #25 jaunte

"Somebody's go to stand up to experts!"
--Don McLeroy

Let's put it this way. I wouldn't trust McLeroy to clean my teeth, much less choose a textbook.

35 Bobblehead  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:34:52pm

re: #29 pingjockey

Youse guys are way low. troll under 100 maybe, meltdown, not until 250s. I'll take troll at 97 and meltdown at 257 Alex.

How many downdings tonight? Do I have any bidders?

36 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:35:26pm

re: #30 BryanS

I've been spending a lonely hour or so defending the LGF point of view over at

Somehow missed the rest:

at hot air . Fun times. And did I mention, always "preview" our posts :).

37 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:35:27pm
Mention the name "Texas" and the word "schoolbook" to many people of a certain age (such as my own) and the resulting free association will come up with the word "depository" and the image of Lee Harvey Oswald crouching on its sixth floor.

Teaching the argument is to critical thinking as Oswald is to JFK.

(///You're correct! Oswald didn't do it!)

38 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:35:29pm

re: #33 Racer X
No guts, no cogent arguement, no nothin'.

39 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:35:44pm

re: #35 Bobblehead

How many downdings tonight? Do I have any bidders?

I'll take twelve .. I need to keep SpaceJesus on the wrong side of empty.

40 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:01pm

re: #35 Bobblehead

How many downdings tonight? Do I have any bidders?

At least 4 for the thread, and none of the chickenshits will dare to make a comment.

Come on, CJW, we're waiting for your gamey troll ass.

41 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:04pm

re: #31 Buster Bunny

Maybe McLeroy would accept an amateur pharmacist or surgeon for himself, but I appreciate that technical and scientific field require experts.
He's just a free rider on what others' expertise has built.

42 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:09pm

As usual of his ilk, McLeroy is taking information out of context. Steven J. Gould refers to stasis in the excerpt:

We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record—geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis)—reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record

[Link: www.stephenjaygould.org...]

The fraud continues.

43 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:12pm

re: #35 Bobblehead
I'll say a bakers dozen, 13.

44 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:13pm

re: #30 BryanS

I've been spending a lonely hour or so defending the LGF point of view over at hot air Latest one is someone who thinks he's proven the existence of god. Fun times!

I fixed the broken link in your post - reload and it will be visible.

45 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:32pm

re: #37 solomonpanting

Teaching the argument is to critical thinking as Oswald is to JFK.

(///You're correct! Oswald didn't do it!)

So who was on the grassy knoll, then?

///

46 LGoPs  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:33pm

re: #28 Occasional Reader

I think his comment is just the sort of thing a Capricorn would say.

He does have a pretty notaurus reputation for saying things like that.......

47 Bloodnok  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:36:47pm

This guy McElroy is incoherent. Complete sentences are his enemy.

He wanted to bring his Time magazine cover for evidence?

The young rocks have organisms?

48 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:37:24pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon
Cancer Man. Didn't you watch the x-Files?!

49 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:37:34pm

re: #41 jaunte

Maybe McLeroy would accept an amateur pharmacist or surgeon for himself, but I appreciate that technical and scientific field require experts.
He's just a free rider on what others' expertise has built.

Absolutely! And I think if we are going to be harassed and threatened in our legal systems and our educational systems by people riding on our expertise, then we should have every right to withdraw that support. Let them go play Amish in their own time.

50 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:37:49pm

his hair devolved to extinction....that proves something

51 reine.de.tout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:37:59pm

re: #9 Alouette

I'd admire Hitch if he wasn't such a fucking anti-Semite.

Hitchens is just about anti-everybody, isn't he?

52 LGoPs  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:38:49pm

re: #51 reine.de.tout

Hitchens is just about anti-everybody, isn't he?

He likes anything Scotch......
/

53 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:39:25pm

re: #42 Gus 802

Cretinists Creationists usually liked to use the debate between punctuated equilibrium and gradualism as evidence there is something wrong with evolutionary theory. It's sick how they'd act as though the punk-eekers were on their side. Reminds me of another topic (for another thread).

54 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:39:42pm

re: #44 Charles

I fixed the broken link in your post - reload and it will be visible.

He heals the wounded links ! A miracle !

55 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:40:04pm

re: #50 albusteve

his hair devolved to extinction....that proves something

Heh. He could borrow Blagojevich's.

56 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:40:10pm

re: #44 Charles

Thanx much :)

57 yochanan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:40:46pm

file hitchens under the blind squirrel finds a nut, but the nut will be hitchens

58 Racer X  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:40:54pm

From Hot Air:

Hey AP. Could I ask a favor?

How about cooling it with the Evolution vs. Creation stuff?

It’s a total drag and unecessarily divisive. It just creates a lot of ill-feeling, to no real effect or purpose.

Someone explain how this whole academic argument affects any issue of our time?

You could reasonably take any side of any political issue right now, whether you are an Evolutionist or a Creationist. Even issues that have some grounding in the biological sciences, like abortion or stem cell research. In practical political terms, whether you believe in Evolution or not is irrelevant.

I’m sick of watching people beat each other over the head with this issue, trying to prove that the other person is Godless or backward, for no real reason other than the “sport” of it.

Heh.

59 LGoPs  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:40:54pm

re: #51 reine.de.tout

Hitchens is just about anti-everybody, isn't he?

He did a pretty good job chewing up and spitting out that Deaf guy Mos on the Bill Maher thread yesterday.......
/

60 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:41:15pm

Ha! Nat Geo running an episode on the Great Flood! There is some guy that has a biblical tour of the Grand Canyon. IOW the Grand Canyon is 6000 years old! Gaaaah!

61 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:41:37pm

re: #53 Honorary Yooper

Thanks. I was searching in my mind for punctuated equilibrium which is another thing that the YECers manipulate.

62 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:42:14pm

re: #60 pingjockey

Ha! Nat Geo running an episode on the Great Flood! There is some guy that has a biblical tour of the Grand Canyon. IOW the Grand Canyon is 6000 years old! Gaaaah!

Stupid is as stupid does.

-Forrest Gump

63 reine.de.tout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:42:20pm

re: #59 LGoPs

He did a pretty good job chewing up and spitting out that Deaf guy Mos on the Bill Maher thread yesterday.......
/

I like hearing Hitchens, even when I don't agree with him.

He is uniformly nasty to and about everybody, it seems.

64 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:42:49pm

re: #9 Alouette

I'd admire Hitch if he wasn't such a fucking anti-Semite.

How is Christopher Hitchens anti-Semitic?

65 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:02pm

re: #63 reine.de.tout

I like hearing Hitchens, even when I don't agree with him.

He is uniformly nasty to and about everybody, it seems.

I hope he is not married.

66 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:04pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon
Faith is not science. Damn.

67 NYCHardhat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:21pm

Throw down your umbilical noose..

68 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:26pm

re: #64 Gus 802

How is Christopher Hitchens anti-Semitic?

Read the article in my spinoff.

69 Shug  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:27pm

McElroy is the mising link between the ancient rat and man

70 NonNativeTexan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:37pm

re: #9 Alouette

I'd admire Hitch if he wasn't such a f-ing anti-Semite.

I did not know this about him. I admired him for defacing the
Nazi symbol in Lebanon? was it.

71 HelloDare  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:41pm

The chairman of the Texas Board of Education is just bitter because his head is evolving into a cue ball.

72 Bloodnok  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:43:52pm

re: #58 Racer X

From Hot Air:

Heh.

That's pretty tame compared with the crap they throw at AP over there. They need to do something over there. Unless AP doesn't mind being insulted on his blog.

73 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:44:19pm

re: #64 Gus 802

Hitch isn't exactly a supporter of Israel but I wouldn't call him antisemitic.

74 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:44:40pm

I always wonder what the creationists make of the fossil of halucinogenia.

75 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:44:50pm

re: #72 Bloodnok

That's pretty tame compared with the crap they throw at AP over there. They need to do something over there. Unless AP doesn't mind being insulted on his blog.

Agree. It's getting really bad.

76 LGoPs  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:44:57pm

re: #63 reine.de.tout

I like hearing Hitchens, even when I don't agree with him.

He is uniformly nasty to and about everybody, it seems.

I came to admire his honesty years ago, long before 9-11 allied him with the conservative cause. Even though I disagree with him on most views, i consider him one of the few leftists that have the integrity to argue out of good faith...as opposed to the bad faith that most other leftists practice.

77 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:45:21pm

Sorry Chris Hitchens .. NO COMPROMISE on creationism, no agreeing that beheading is the best way to make kuffar sandwiches, no kidnapping ransoms and no threats from a nuclear Iran.

Lets take control of the neighbourhood and start acting like a fricking superpower instead of the candy man.

78 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:45:53pm

re: #68 Alouette

Read the article in my spinoff.

OK, did a quick read. I'm going to have to agree with KT on this one. He's railing against Israel to a certain extent. That doesn't qualify him as anti-Semitic IMO.

79 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:46:02pm
The problem is that he is urging that the argument be taught, not in a history or in a civics class, but in a biology class.

That's okay- we don't teach history or civics either.

80 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:46:04pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

Hitch isn't exactly a supporter of Israel but I wouldn't call him antisemitic.

He is a hater of Jews and Judaism, and eager to embrace the worst lies of the "Talmudic Jew." Read the article that I linked in the spinoffs.

81 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:46:06pm

re: #74 Dianna

I always wonder what the creationists make of the fossil of halucinogenia.

Better religion through chemistry!

82 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:46:07pm

re: #60 pingjockey

Ha! Nat Geo running an episode on the Great Flood! There is some guy that has a biblical tour of the Grand Canyon. IOW the Grand Canyon is 6000 years old! Gaaaah!

Oh, this shit. As I understand it, the YECs believe, based on a stream cutting a channel in soft, newly formed ash at Mt. St. Helens after the 1980 eruption, that the Grand Canyon could be carve quickly by Noah's Flood in a similar manner. Never mind that we're dealing with solid granite, schist, and other very dense, hard, rocks versus ash with hasn't even lithified yet.

83 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:46:14pm

re: #48 pingjockey

Cancer Man. Didn't you watch the x-Files?!

The Comedian! I saw it in Watchmen!

84 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:47:07pm

re: #33 Racer X

I don't understand when people down ding a post or a comment and then do not chime in on why.

Give your input. Tell us why you disagree. If it is personal belief then post that.

That might start to resemble actual intellectual discourse.

85 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:47:15pm

re: #74 Dianna

I always wonder what the creationists make of the fossil of halucinogenia.

they immediately grind them up and smoke them

86 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:47:17pm

re: #70 NonNativeTexan

I did not know this about him. I admired him for defacing the
Nazi symbol in Lebanon? was it.

Yeah. That pretty much destroys the argument that he's anti-semitic . That was the incident that got him beat up if I recall correctly. I think that point of view comes from his previous history supporting the right of return for Palestinians. Hitch has had his flirtations with the left.

87 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:47:32pm

re: #63 reine.de.tout

I like hearing Hitchens, even when I don't agree with him.

He is uniformly nasty to and about everybody, it seems.

Well, yes. It's a selling point for Hitch. He's an equal opportunity offender.

He will hare off to condemn the religious, whether he's right or not, though. It's his major weakness.

88 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:47:42pm

re: #72 Bloodnok

That's pretty tame compared with the crap they throw at AP over there. They need to do something over there. Unless AP doesn't mind being insulted on his blog.

Allahpundit needs to start using a big stick and clearing out the jackasses. He seriously needs to start banning some of those asinine commentors.

89 Bloodnok  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:47:43pm

re: #82 Honorary Yooper

Oh, this shit. As I understand it, the YECs believe, based on a stream cutting a channel in soft, newly formed ash at Mt. St. Helens after the 1980 eruption, that the Grand Canyon could be carve quickly by Noah's Flood in a similar manner. Never mind that we're dealing with solid granite, schist, and other very dense, hard, rocks versus ash with hasn't even lithified yet.

None of your filthy schist and ash talk.

/

90 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:48:06pm

re: #75 Charles

Agree. It's getting really bad.

The sorry point is that unless it stops being just talk these guys are going to ram these stealth bills through, maybe not the first time, but they'll keep on pressing the subject. And once its policy its going to be that much harder to fish these suckers out of the system.

91 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:48:12pm

re: #85 albusteve

they immediately grind them up and smoke them

Bite your tongue! Creationists get high naturally; they'd never smoke anything!

92 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:48:29pm

re: #82 Honorary Yooper
Yep. That's the explanation. The Grand Canyon was carved just after the flood, in mud that later turned to rock. I just can't believe people.

93 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:48:43pm

re: #85 albusteve

they immediately grind them up and smoke them

Dude, like Whoa!

94 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:48:58pm

re: #83 Dianna
Haven't seen the Watchmen.!

95 lostlakehiker  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:49:01pm

This guy is so totally LOST. He thinks Time magazine is counter-argument. Time on one side, "experts" on the other. And his view of experts? They are honorable men, all honorable men. Or nice, at any rate. But correct? Nah.

96 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:49:55pm

re: #78 Gus 802

OK, did a quick read. I'm going to have to agree with KT on this one. He's railing against Israel to a certain extent. That doesn't qualify him as anti-Semitic IMO.

Heeere's Hitchie, any excuse to hate Jooz:

Possibly you remember Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the man who in February 1994 unslung his weapon and killed more than two dozen worshippers at the mosque in Hebron. He had been a physician in the Israeli army and had first attracted attention by saying that he would refuse to treat non-Jews on the Sabbath. Now read Ethan Bronner's report in the March 22 New York Times about the preachments of the Israeli army's latest chief rabbi, a West Bank settler named Avichai Rontzski who also holds the rank of brigadier general. He has "said that the main reason for a Jewish doctor to treat a non-Jew on the Sabbath … is to avoid exposing Diaspora Jews to hatred." Those of us who follow these things recognize that statement as one of the leading indicators of a truly determined racist and fundamentalist. Yet it comes not this time in the garb of a homicidal lone-wolf nut bag but in the full uniform and accoutrement of a general and a high priest: Moses and Eleazar combined. The latest news, according to Bronner, is that the Israeli Defense Ministry has felt compelled to reprimand Rontzski for "a rabbinal edict against showing the enemy mercy" that was distributed in booklet form to men and women in uniform (see Numbers 31:13-18, above).

Shmuley Boteach smacks down Hitchens' deliberate distortion of Judaism.

97 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:50:18pm

re: #91 Dianna

Bite your tongue! Creationists get high naturally; they'd never smoke anything!

The point I'll know we have flipped is when people start dying and its back to being GODS CHOICE that they die rather then using medications and supplements and modern medicine to keep them alive.

Its then that I'll be elsewhere. Because the same people will march for GODS CHOICE in who shall live or die. And thats where no-one wants to be.

98 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:50:24pm

re: #88 Honorary Yooper

Allahpundit needs to start using a big stick and clearing out the jackasses. He seriously needs to start banning some of those asinine commentors.

I think AP is there just to add spice to the debate. From the top, I think the Creationist viewpoint is very welcome there.

99 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:50:32pm

re: #92 pingjockey

Yep. That's the explanation. The Grand Canyon was carved just after the flood, in mud that later turned to rock. I just can't believe people.

Tell me about it. They have no fucking understanding of basic geology. Here's a cluebat for the YECs, granite is a plutonic rock. That mean it is formed from molten magma, not sediments.

100 Bloodnok  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:50:35pm

re: #88 Honorary Yooper

Allahpundit needs to start using a big stick and clearing out the jackasses. He seriously needs to start banning some of those asinine commentors.

The vibe over there is not good. It's being overtaken by the fringe, which is sad.

101 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:50:43pm

re: #64 Gus 802

How is Christopher Hitchens anti-Semitic?

He once again gave into his prejudice against any and all religious, and believed the article that claimed rabbis were encouraging a "holy war" mentality among IDF troops.

That was debunked in a later article, which Hitch may not have seen.

He views religion negatively, and will enthusiastically run after anything - however unlikely or untrue - that makes priests, ministers, rabbis or imams the bad guy.

102 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:51:01pm

re: #1 Kosh's Shadow

We'd better watch it.
With people like this running our educational system, we might end up with a total incompetent as President.

"Present"

103 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:51:24pm

re: #86 BryanS

Yeah. That pretty much destroys the argument that he's anti-semitic . That was the incident that got him beat up if I recall correctly. I think that point of view comes from his previous history supporting the right of return for Palestinians. Hitch has had his flirtations with the left.

Leftists are anti-Nazi and still hate Jews.

104 Shug  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:51:31pm

shocker!

CJW down dinged the thread

105 NYCHardhat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:51:44pm

re: #91 Dianna

Bite your tongue! Creationists get high naturally; they'd never smoke anything!

Yeah smoking is kinda passe. I'm into dropping obscene amounts of lsd to attain the unknown.

106 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:52:05pm

re: #99 Honorary Yooper
God did it all and that's all you need to know. Sounds like some asshats from the ME.

107 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:52:10pm

re: #104 Shug

shocker!

CJW down dinged the thread

Say it aint so CJW !

108 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:52:23pm

re: #8 Buster Bunny

Cmon .. lets just teach voodoo to our kids and get it over with. I mean .. zombies have been proven to be environmentally friendly, and so cute too ! And no Haitiian has ever been wrong .. (without being shot) so there is nothing to lose !

Zombies: 100 percent recycled humans

109 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:52:27pm

re: #104 Shug

shocker!

CJW down dinged the thread

And yet, the chickenshit known as CJW refuses to comment on the thread he, she, or is it, it?, downdinged. What a jackass.

110 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:52:56pm

re: #106 pingjockey

God did it all and that's all you need to know. Sounds like some asshats from the ME.

doctrine wise it's to close for my comfort...kissin cousins

111 NYCHardhat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:53:02pm

re: #105 NYCHardhat

Yeah smoking is kinda passe. I'm into dropping obscene amounts of lsd to attain the unknown.

I forgot the /////

112 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:53:13pm

re: #106 pingjockey

God did it all and that's all you need to know. Sounds like some asshats from the ME.

I made that comparison once in the Lounge, and got bitched at by a now-former commentor.

113 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:53:30pm

Slightly OT, but not much:

Breitbart nails it:

Rules for conservative radicals

A digital war has broken out, and the conservative movement is losing. Read the comment sections of right-leaning blogs, news sites and social forums, and the evidence is there in ugly abundance. Internet hooligans are spewing their talking points to thwart the dissent of the newly-out-of-power.

The Huffington Post, Daily Kos and other left-leaning sites benefit from the right's belief that there are rules and decorum in political debate and civic engagement. Of course, every now and then, a curious right-winger will go in and engage in discussion at a left-wing site, but rarely under purely disingenuous and mass coordinated means.

As a prolific consumer of online content, I value nothing more than the sincere expression of opinion that differs from mine. Sometimes I am even moved or swayed from my dogma. But that was not the type of communication that got Mr. Obama elected.

The American right is in a heap of trouble in a media age that doesn't shun the goons and liars that have poisoned the political process and won the American presidency by breaking the rules of fair play. It is time to fight back, but it won't be easy. The enemy is willing to do and say anything in order to win.

114 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:53:30pm

re: #86 BryanS

Except that Hitch proudly identifies himself as a Marxist.

I love the man, dearly, but I don't pretend he's things he isn't. He's a man of the left, just more honest than most.

115 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:53:51pm

re: #103 Alouette

Leftists are anti-Nazi and still hate Jews.

Well, as socialists, I think the left pretty much are Nazis who call everyone else that name to deflect any comparisons.

116 yochanan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:53:55pm

re: #86 BryanS

he is anti religious but his anti semitism shows it's ugly face when he falls for the worst sterotypes of religous jews.

117 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:54:03pm

re: #101 Dianna

He once again gave into his prejudice against any and all religious, and believed the article that claimed rabbis were encouraging a "holy war" mentality among IDF troops.

That was debunked in a later article, which Hitch may not have seen.

He views religion negatively, and will enthusiastically run after anything - however unlikely or untrue - that makes priests, ministers, rabbis or imams the bad guy.

Generally he's anti-theology all around. If he was misinformed by the New York Times article(s) then it would be fare to give him some time to respond. I won't comment any further on that topic .

118 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:54:19pm

re: #112 Honorary Yooper
Whenever someone starts saying their belief system is the "correct" one, I get worried.

119 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:54:40pm

re: #25 jaunte

"Somebody's go to stand up to experts!"
--Don McLeroy

The fun part of being a Republican in Minnesota is keeping a lid on these idiots.

120 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:54:41pm

re: #94 pingjockey

Haven't seen the Watchmen.!

Do, it's very good.

121 yochanan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:55:27pm

re: #96 Alouette

Shmuley Boteach smacks down Hitchens' deliberate distortion of Judaism.

I like Shmuley i have met him a few times.

122 Bloodnok  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:55:28pm

re: #104 Shug

shocker!

CJW down dinged the thread

But who will its helpers be? There are always 3 or 4 and I think it is the same people cycling through sock nics so that it isn't too obvious.

123 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:55:47pm
124 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:55:49pm

re: #120 Dianna
OK, have to talk to the better half. She's set on seeing the new Star Trek flic.

125 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:55:54pm

re: #117 Gus 802

The problem is, that this is a man who gave water boarding a whirl to see if it was torture, but can't properly look into a false allegation regarding Israel?

126 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:55:59pm

re: #119 The Other Les

Here in Texas we make them Governor. It's a sad state of affairs.

127 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:56:24pm

re: #96 Alouette

Shmuley Boteach smacks down Hitchens' deliberate distortion of Judaism.

I respectfully point out that it wasn't anti-semitism that prompted that particular piece of assininity on Hitch's part, but his abiding detestation of religion.

He's flat wrong, but the man's not a jew-hater.

128 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:56:29pm

re: #30 BryanS

I've been spending a lonely hour or so defending the LGF point of view over at hot air Latest one is someone who thinks he's proven the existence of god. Fun times!

If God really existed then the false prophet Mohammed would have been vaporized the moment he opened his mouth.

129 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:56:33pm

re: #8 Buster Bunny

Cmon .. lets just teach voodoo to our kids and get it over with. I mean .. zombies have been proven to be environmentally friendly, and so cute too ! And no Haitiian has ever been wrong .. (without being shot) so there is nothing to lose !

Reduce - Reuse - Reanimate

130 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:56:53pm

re: #125 jayzee

The problem is, that this is a man who gave water boarding a whirl to see if it was torture, but can't properly look into a false allegation regarding Israel?

That would be leading edge journalism. You can get killed for that by those nice Palestinian types.

Bad Mojo.

131 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:56:59pm
132 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:57:34pm

re: #128 The Other Les
Please don't go there.

133 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:57:48pm

re: #118 pingjockey

Whenever someone starts saying their belief system is the "correct" one, I get worried.

Islamic Law's Influence in America a Growing Concern

But Professor An-Na'im believes it will be different in America. "The variety of American secularism — which is much more receptive of public displays of religion and a public role for religion — is, in fact, more conducive for Muslims to be citizens and to be comfortable with their religious values and citizenship than European countries," An-Na'im said.

This scares the shit out of me.

134 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:57:49pm

re: #116 yochanan

he is anti religious but his anti semitism shows it's ugly face when he falls for the worst sterotypes of religous jews.

I think like others have posted it's the "religious" part of religious Jews that triggers his venom. Secular Jews probably don't bother him much.

135 yochanan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:58:33pm

re: #103 Alouette

leftists are anti nazi when the party tells them to be so. remember the soviet/german treaty that they used to devide poland

136 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:58:53pm

re: #118 pingjockey

Whenever someone starts saying their belief system is the "correct" one, I get worried.

I don't. I only get worried if they try to impose it on other people. Its OK to think you are correct, it's not OK to use that as an excuse to try force others to go along with your beliefs.

137 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:59:30pm

re: #133 jorline

I thought the islamists had had their way with the EU so far?

138 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:59:31pm

re: #135 yochanan

leftists are anti nazi when the party tells them to be so. remember the soviet/german treaty that they used to devide poland

Good point.

139 reine.de.tout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:59:38pm

re: #76 LGoPs

I came to admire his honesty years ago, long before 9-11 allied him with the conservative cause. Even though I disagree with him on most views, i consider him one of the few leftists that have the integrity to argue out of good faith...as opposed to the bad faith that most other leftists practice.

Yes, exactly.
And he is so eloquent.

140 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 7:59:48pm

re: #123 ploome hineni

I like Hitch

I didn;t think he was any more antisemitic than the usual

:D

/lol

Hitch - gods love him - hates everyone.

141 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:00:06pm

re: #136 Dark_Falcon
Thanks, that is what i wanted to say and fumbled the ball!

142 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:00:16pm

re: #124 pingjockey

OK, have to talk to the better half. She's set on seeing the new Star Trek flic.

Just remember it's an odd number.

143 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:00:17pm
144 yochanan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:00:26pm

re: #134 BryanS

religous jews tend to bother anti semites more because they can tell we are jews offen secular or liberal jews are harder to tell from gentiles.

145 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:00:30pm

re: #133 jorline

This scares the shit out of me.

I'm waiting for some Muslim who carries out an "honor killing" to argue that it is required by his religion, and prosecuting him is against the 1st amendment.

I'll be nervous when it appears that he can succeed.

146 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:00:54pm

Money paragraph of the Hitchens article:

It's not just that the overwhelming majority of scientists are now convinced that evolution is inscribed in the fossil record and in the lineaments of molecular biology. It is more that evolutionists will say in advance which evidence, if found, would refute them and force them to reconsider. ("Rabbit fossils in the pre-Cambrian layer" was, I seem to remember, the response of Prof. J.B.S. Haldane.) Try asking an "intelligent design" advocate to stipulate upfront what would constitute refutation of his world view and you will easily see the difference between the scientific method and the pseudoscientific one.

147 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:01:00pm
148 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:01:25pm

re: #134 BryanS

I think like others have posted it's the "religious" part of religious Jews that triggers his venom. Secular Jews probably don't bother him much.

He hates all people who are religious, but his rants against Judaism are based on the old stereotype of the "well-poisoning, gentile-baby-eating" "Talmudic" Jew of medieval folklore.

He fits the old Jewish stereotype of the "drunken gentile peasant" very neatly.

149 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:01:33pm

re: #142 Dianna
Yep. The only one I really liked was 2.The rest were....okay.

150 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:01:55pm

re: #123 ploome hineni

I like Hitch

I didn;t think he was any more antisemitic than the usual

:D

/lol

I like the way he dresses and his irreverence...I bet he digs the Stones

151 reine.de.tout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:01:55pm

re: #143 ploome hineni

hi reine

:D

Good evening, Ploomie!
Where've you been?

152 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:01:57pm

McLeroy waxes his dome, by the way. Notice the gleam.

153 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:02:23pm

re: #137 pingjockey

I thought the islamists had had their way with the EU so far?

"Shariah Law is the totality of the Muslim's obligation," said Abdullahi An-Na'im, a professor of law at Emory University in Atlanta. According to An-Na'im, Shariah is similar to Jewish Talmudic Law or Catholic Canon Law in that it guides an adherent's moral conduct.

This guy is spinning so fast he's praying to the north, south, east and west.

154 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:02:27pm
155 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:02:36pm

re: #125 jayzee

The problem is, that this is a man who gave water boarding a whirl to see if it was torture, but can't properly look into a false allegation regarding Israel?

It appealed to his deepest prejudice, the hatred of religion.

The man wrote "What's Wrong with God?". Start there.

BTW, the book had lots of problems, errors and inaccuracies. He lets his detestation of religion over-ride his usual affection for facts.

156 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:02:41pm

re: #152 Charles

McLeroy waxes his dome, by the way. Notice the gleam.

Do not mock happy fun ball!

157 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:02:46pm

re: #115 BryanS

Well, as socialists, I think the left pretty much are Nazis who call everyone else that name to deflect any comparisons.

The National Socialists are the crazy relatives that the Left does not like to talk about.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

158 reine.de.tout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:02:48pm

re: #140 Dianna

Hitch - gods love him - hates everyone.

I agreed with that earlier:

re: #51 reine.de.tout

Hitchens is just about anti-everybody, isn't he?

159 NonNativeTexan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:03:03pm

re: #146 Dark_Falcon

Com'on Dark, quit trying to get this thread back on evolution:)

160 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:03:13pm

re: #152 Charles

McLeroy waxes his dome, by the way. Notice the gleam.

I wondered...a power buff...had to put on my Sun Rays to watch the vid

161 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:03:17pm
162 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:03:40pm

re: #152 Charles

McLeroy waxes his dome, by the way. Notice the gleam.

He must be using a car buffer on it.

163 BignJames  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:03:40pm

re: #152 Charles

McLeroy waxes his dome, by the way. Notice the gleam.

Bet he's got a power buffer.

164 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:03:47pm

Quote I wish Hitchens hadn't used:

Let a hundred flowers bloom, and a thousand schools of thought contend.

The quote is from Mao Zedong.

165 yochanan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:03:50pm

he used to be a trot, and there are plenty of old fashioned anti semites in the worlds trotskite parties.

i know in my foolish youth i was a member of one

166 reine.de.tout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:04:01pm

re: #161 ploome hineni

manicure pedicure....costco...napping

and phoning people whose cell phone battery is not charged

:D

uh-oh!
bbl

167 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:04:09pm

re: #113 pink freud

I've had to activate the moderation function in order to deal with those idiots on my blog.

168 Shug  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:04:42pm

He buffs his dome
It shines like Chrome
between his ears
Nobody's home

Burma shave

169 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:04:43pm

re: #145 Kosh's Shadow

I'm waiting for some Muslim who carries out an "honor killing" to argue that it is required by his religion, and prosecuting him is against the 1st amendment.

I'll be nervous when it appears that he can succeed.

Didn't the guy in Georgia agrue that already?

170 Steve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:05:03pm

re: #128 The Other Les

If God really existed then the false prophet Mohammed would have been vaporized the moment he opened his mouth.

Not necessarily. Could be God allows people to make their own choices?

171 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:05:09pm

Hitchens is fixated on Baruch Goldstein as an excuse to hate all Orthodox Jews.

172 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:05:25pm

re: #148 Alouette

He hates all people who are religious, but his rants against Judaism are based on the old stereotype of the "well-poisoning, gentile-baby-eating" "Talmudic" Jew of medieval folklore.

He fits the old Jewish stereotype of the "drunken gentile peasant" very neatly.

Taking a beating for his challenge to antisemitic symbols counts for nothing? I guess I haven't seen the side of him you point out--it might be there and I haven't paid attention to Hitchens for the whole of his career.

173 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:05:31pm

re: #147 ploome hineni

he skewers everyone

/in such an awesome way

Yeah. I used to buy The Nation just for him.

It's fortunate that I never met him in my single days. I'd have made an ass of myself, and it wouldn't have mattered that he was fat, old, and drank too much.

174 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:05:35pm

re: #168 Shug
Well done!

175 Steve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:06:01pm

re: #152 Charles

McLeroy waxes his dome, by the way. Notice the gleam.

I wonder if he bought a shamwow from vince?

176 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:06:03pm
177 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:06:04pm

re: #152 Charles

McLeroy waxes his dome, by the way. Notice the gleam.

That observation is worrying.

178 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:06:32pm
179 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:06:45pm

re: #132 pingjockey

Please don't go there.

I was an atheist long before I started reading Ayn Rand.

180 Dragonwolf  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:06:51pm

O.T.
Wasn't sure where to ask this but I knew it had to be in an evolution topic. In the front page post for Sat. overnight thread is a quote by R. C. Lewontin. Did anyone else notice the oops in his argument (a single point NOT the argument as a whole)? In the middle of his list of facts he states
"It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms."
My question would be 'what previous living form did the original single cell organisms on this planet come from?' Since, if this statement is indeed fact, then it must follow that life in some form preceded the big bang, that life existed before time or the universe.
If we are going to demand accuracy in the teaching of science, which is a good thing, then perhaps we should not so pompously (from my perspective) just list facts that must be accepted without first checking for statements that would leave us open to the counter-argument "well, if this statement is demonstrably wrong, how can we be honest without questioning all the others?" or some other such twaddle.

The DI loonies have too many people flummoxed as it is, let's not give them even the hint of any other straw to grasp at.

181 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:07:18pm

re: #167 The Other Les

I've had to activate the moderation function in order to deal with those idiots on my blog.

O-bots.

182 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:07:19pm
183 reine.de.tout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:07:22pm

re: #173 Dianna

Yeah. I used to buy The Nation just for him.

It's fortunate that I never met him in my single days. I'd have made an ass of myself, and it wouldn't have mattered that he was fat, old, and drank too much.

I have a book called "The Portable Curmudgeon".
The cartoon-ish figure on the cover look sorta like Hitchens.

184 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:07:25pm

re: #149 pingjockey

Yep. The only one I really liked was 2.The rest were....okay.

Yes, but all the odd-numbered ones sucked. I mean, sucked!

185 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:07:54pm

re: #171 Alouette

Hitchens is fixated on Baruch Goldstein as an excuse to hate all Orthodox Jews.

Its the One event! Out of the whole 60+ years of Israel's existance he'd be hard pressed finding half a dozen. Enumerate the Arabs and it isnt even worth trying to count.

186 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:07:54pm

re: #157 The Other Les

The National Socialists are the crazy relatives that the Left does not like to talk about.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

I always thought that, and kept questioning my high school history teacher on why he thought Nazis were extreme left. I never felt satisfied with the explanation, always assuming it was a lie. But so many others in my classes would believe those indoctrinating statements without question.

187 Steve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:07:57pm

re: #178 ploome hineni

you Jewish?

On my mothers side yes.

188 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:08:13pm

re: #172 BryanS

Taking a beating for his challenge to antisemitic symbols counts for nothing? I guess I haven't seen the side of him you point out--it might be there and I haven't paid attention to Hitchens for the whole of his career.

By scribbling on the Syrian poster, he was not defending Jews, Judaism or Israel's right to exist, but he was defending Hitchens' annoyance with nazi symbols. Then he turns around and cites Baruch Goldstein as an excuse to hate all observant Jews.

So it's OK to hate all atheists because Stalin was an atheist?

189 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:08:21pm

re: #157 The Other Les

The National Socialists are the crazy relatives that the Left does not like to talk about.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

Anyone hear similar rhetoric recently?
I wonder what bonuses executives got in German companies back in 1927.

190 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:09:13pm

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

Quote I wish Hitchens hadn't used:

The quote is from Mao Zedong.

Ahem. It's Hitch. What did you expect?

191 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:09:30pm

re: #171 Alouette

Hitchens is fixated on Baruch Goldstein as an excuse to hate all Orthodox Jews.

Agreed. Peaple like Baruch Goldstein and and Mohammad Atta are his idea of devoutly religious people and what religious devotion leads to. He ignores the good things faith brings and only focuses on the bad.

192 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:09:47pm

I took
what was offered
from hot
Cindy Crawford
Burma Shaved

193 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:10:41pm

re: #179 The Other Les
Ah. I believe in free will. But I do admit little things like Mao , Hitler, Stalin, the Plague etc.... do make ya wonder about a Supreme Being sometimes.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:10:49pm

re: #96 Alouette

Shmuley Boteach smacks down Hitchens' deliberate distortion of Judaism.

Since Rabbi Shmuley drives me almost as crazy as Hitchens, this may be a very interesting article for me.

195 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:10:52pm
196 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:10:58pm

re: #192 albusteve

She offered her honor, he honored her offer...

197 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:11:03pm

re: #182 ploome hineni

you would have had to go through me

:P

Ha!

198 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:11:42pm

re: #170 Steve

Not necessarily. Could be God allows people to make their own choices?

If someone said about me what The Big Mo' said about God I would be very, very angry. I cannot believe in a God who won't stand up for himself.

199 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:12:41pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Peaple like Baruch Goldstein and and Mohammad Atta are his idea of devoutly religious people and what religious devotion leads to. He ignores the good things faith brings and only focuses on the bad.

Except that he goes beyond Goldstein's unique act of insanity and makes the bogus claim about Jewish doctors not saving lives of gentile patients on the Sabbath. Where he gets this shit from I do not know, but it's not from Judaism.

200 Honorary Yooper  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:12:43pm

re: #170 Steve

Not necessarily. Could be God allows people to make their own choices?

That's the basis of free will. We all have it, and as such, have the freedom to choose between right and wrong.

201 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:12:56pm

re: #193 pingjockey

Ah. I believe in free will. But I do admit little things like Mao , Hitler, Stalin, the Plague etc.... do make ya wonder about a Supreme Being sometimes.

I believe in a god that sticks dilemmas in front of us and asks us to make the right choice based on our knowledge and bible education. There is no point being a devout something if you are never challenged in that. Jacob was, Issac was .. Joseph definitely was .. maybe there is something in that.

202 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:13:07pm

re: #196 rawmuse

And soon he had her honor back.

203 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:13:48pm

re: #198 The Other Les

If someone said about me what The Big Mo' said about God I would be very, very angry. I cannot believe in a God who won't stand up for himself.

Free will...pay backs a bitch!

204 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:13:58pm

re: #202 swamprat

No, it's "and he was on her and off her from then on"

205 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:14:01pm

re: #188 Alouette

You're stretching, here.

Look, write to Hitchens with your issues. He's a bastard, but he's a bright, and surprisingly fair-minded bastard. If you confront him with a series of statements, and question their basis, you might get an answer.

But, though I love the man, I do not know what's in his heart, nor, though I read him a lot, am I sure of every word he's ever put on the internet. I can't defend him. You need to ask him yourself.

206 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:14:17pm

Geez. The Russian couple upstairs are having a huge (verbal) fight. I think the man just ran down. I'm glad I'm single. God, they're loud when they fight.

I can hear every word from the patio (I went out to smoke and make sure there was no blood involved), but the only word I understand is "Nyet! Nyet! Nyet!"

207 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:14:32pm

re: #188 Alouette

I don't think Hitch has to proactively defend Jews to not be an antisemite. He may be...if you have references, I'd be happy to look at them.

208 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:14:42pm

re: #190 Dianna

Ahem. It's Hitch. What did you expect?

On further reflection, that quote does make sense: Mao used it to launch the "Hundred Flowers Campaign" in which China briefly did not repress dissent. The campaign's true purpose was to smoke out dissenters for later elimination. Hitchens is trying the same trick: give the creationist some room to make them selves look stupid and them use that as a club against religion in general.

209 Steve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:14:43pm

re: #195 ploome hineni

that's all you need

I had heard from what I considered a reliable source that it was passed down through the women.
My mom's mother was born in Hungry to Jewish parents but the only school in the area was a Catholic School and would only accept catholics. So guess what happened? I personally never could understand that rule.

210 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:14:47pm

re: #201 Buster Bunny

Apologies to all atheists if thats too theological. But thats my stated belief and I'd prefer to air it than hide it.

211 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:15:01pm

re: #181 pink freud

O-bots.

In my case it was someone who had a problem clear language, out of box thinking, and my refusal to do business with someone who insulted me.

212 Steve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:15:16pm

re: #198 The Other Les

If someone said about me what The Big Mo' said about God I would be very, very angry. I cannot believe in a God who won't stand up for himself.

Who said that he doesn't?

213 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:15:32pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. People like Baruch Goldstein and and Mohammad Atta are his idea of devoutly religious people and what religious devotion leads to. He ignores the good things faith brings and only focuses on the bad.

PIMF

214 LGoPs  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:15:45pm

re: #170 Steve

Not necessarily. Could be God allows people to make their own choices?

Which is counter to the dictates of Islam which relies on coercion, intimidation and fear - all counter to the free will concepts that inform my faith.
I saw this intimidation and coercion first hand when I lived in Saudi Arabia, the belly of the beast.

215 Timbre  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:15:51pm

Instead of a state seal on his chair's headrest, he needs a brain stimulator. Or simulator...

216 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:16:21pm

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

You understand Hitch.

217 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:17:08pm

re: #216 Dianna

You understand Hitch.

Thank you, ma'am.

218 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:17:22pm

God sure left his children with a mess...what was he thinking

219 J.S.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:17:42pm

re: #205 Dianna

hm...I believe you're being naive here...there's utterly zero use in "discussions" with antisemites...(big waste of time).

220 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:18:07pm

re: #218 albusteve

That we need to use our brains!

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:19:16pm

re: #134 BryanS

I think like others have posted it's the "religious" part of religious Jews that triggers his venom. Secular Jews probably don't bother him much.

Secular Jews often don't bother anti-Semites as much. Secular Jews have assimilated, and can be assumed to be distanced from the scary secret texts.

Not specifically calling Hitchens an anti-Semite here, but he's definitely getting his pants cuffs in the sludge with that article.

222 JCM  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:19:17pm

State Board of Education is certifiably ignorant.
The President of the United States asks for are gets the resignation of the CEO of a privately held corporation.
Some nut case shoots up a nursing home.

My you live in interesting times, doesn't begin to describe it.

Evening honcos.

223 JCM  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:19:49pm

re: #218 albusteve

God sure left his children with a mess...what was he thinking

We made the mess......

224 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:19:55pm

re: #211 The Other Les

In my case it was someone who had a problem clear language, out of box thinking, and my refusal to do business with someone who insulted me.

Let's try this again:

In my case it was someone who had a problem with clear language, out of box thinking, and my refusal to do business with someone who insulted me.

225 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:19:58pm

re: #219 J.S.

hm...I believe you're being naive here...there's utterly zero use in "discussions" with antisemites...(big waste of time).

Excuse me?

Hitchens, for all his myriad sins, (probably) is not an anti-semite.

I will not deny - and in fact will point out - that he is an anti-religious bigot. But Alouette (if she honestly believes Hitch to be succumbing to anti-semitism) needs to confront him about it.

In a tone that will make him respond, not a hissy-fit.

226 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:20:41pm
227 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:20:43pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

Secular Jews often don't bother anti-Semites as much. Secular Jews have assimilated, and can be assumed to be distanced from the scary secret texts.

Not specifically calling Hitchens an anti-Semite here, but he's definitely getting his pants cuffs in the sludge with that article.

Quite inaccurate. If anything, anti-semites detest secular Jews even more, viewing them as infiltrators.

228 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:20:55pm

re: #223 JCM

We made the mess......

And it's our responsibility to clean it up.

229 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:00pm

re: #205 Dianna

You're stretching, here.

Look, write to Hitchens with your issues. He's a bastard, but he's a bright, and surprisingly fair-minded bastard. If you confront him with a series of statements, and question their basis, you might get an answer.

But, though I love the man, I do not know what's in his heart, nor, though I read him a lot, am I sure of every word he's ever put on the internet. I can't defend him. You need to ask him yourself.

I'll let Hitch battle it out with Shmuley. Shmuley can crucify Hitch, I will buy the nails.

230 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:07pm

re: #223 JCM

We made the mess......

231 Steve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:16pm

re: #214 LGoPs

Which is counter to the dictates of Islam which relies on coercion, intimidation and fear - all counter to the free will concepts that inform my faith.
I saw this intimidation and coercion first hand when I lived in Saudi Arabia, the belly of the beast.

Keep your believer through intimidation and force. Make for a wonderful god.

My wife lived in Tehran when she was a kid for 3 or 4 years. Her father was stationed their. Had something to do with listening posts along the northern border. Took what he did to the grave with him.

232 Neo Con since 9-11  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:25pm

re: #180 Dragonwolf

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Abiogenesis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
"Primordial soup" redirects here. For the board game, see Primordial Soup (board game).
"Origin of life" redirects here. For non-materialistic views on the origins of life, see Creation myth.
Pre-Cambrian stromatolites in the Siyeh Formation, Glacier National Park. In 2002, William Schopf of UCLA published a paper in the scientific journal Nature arguing that geological formations such as this possess 3.5 Ga (billion years old) fossilized cyanobacteria microbes. If true, they would be the earliest known life on earth.

In the natural sciences, abiogenesis, or origin of life, is the study of how life on Earth could have arisen from inanimate matter. It should not be confused with evolution, which is the study of how groups of living things change over time. Amino acids, often called "the building blocks of life", occur naturally, due to chemical reactions unrelated to life. In all living things, these amino acids are organized into proteins, and the construction of these proteins is mediated by nucleic acids. Thus the question of how life on Earth originated is a question of how the first nucleic acids arose.

Some facts about the origin of life are well understood, others are still the subject of current research. The first living things on Earth are thought to be single cell prokaryotes. The oldest ancient fossil microbe-like objects are dated to be 3.5 Ga (billion years old), just a few hundred million years younger than Earth itself.[1][2] By 2.4 Ga, the ratio of stable isotopes of carbon, iron and sulfur shows the action of living things on inorganic minerals and sediments[3][4] and molecular biomarkers indicate photosynthesis, demonstrating that life on Earth was widespread by this time.[5][6]

On the other hand, the exact sequence of chemical events that led to the first nucleic acids is not known. Several hypotheses about early life have been proposed, most notably the iron-sulfur world theory (metabolism without genetics) and the RNA world hypothesis (RNA life-forms).

233 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:32pm

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

On further reflection, that quote does make sense: Mao used it to launch the "Hundred Flowers Campaign" in which China briefly did not repress dissent. The campaign's true purpose was to smoke out dissenters for later elimination. Hitchens is trying the same trick: give the creationist some room to make them selves look stupid and them use that as a club against religion in general.

He also may have been able to use the quote attributed to Lenin:

"The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:40pm

re: #148 Alouette

He hates all people who are religious, but his rants against Judaism are based on the old stereotype of the "well-poisoning, gentile-baby-eating" "Talmudic" Jew of medieval folklore.

He fits the old Jewish stereotype of the "drunken gentile peasant" very neatly.

No, he's not a Russian peasant, they had faith. He's the over-educated English type, who still can't deal with Jews because they're 'too clever by half'.

235 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:41pm

Maurice Jarre, RIP.

236 J.S.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:21:44pm

re: #225 Dianna

No, of course not! Heaven Forfend! An antisemite! Perish the thought!

Yeah, so he simply uses "sources" from websites such as Radio Islam...yeah, no big deal there.

237 albusteve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:22:03pm

re: #220 pingjockey

That we need to use our brains!

you go first...whats your solution for eternal peace?...since God made himself known there has been a boatload of murder, mayhem and evil and some of his most devout minions have been the worst offenders...if he leaves it to us to determine good from evil then he has failed in his experiment...we are just sophisticated bugs

238 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:22:19pm

re: #229 Alouette

Then I must - regretfully - ignore anything further you say about Hitch.

239 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:23:20pm

re: #155 Dianna

It appealed to his deepest prejudice, the hatred of religion.

The man wrote "What's Wrong with God?". Start there.

BTW, the book had lots of problems, errors and inaccuracies. He lets his detestation of religion over-ride his usual affection for facts.

I am still out on the anti-semitism debate, but you touch upon the reason I don't like him. It's one thing to be ideological, it is another thing to allow your ideology to make you intellectually dishonest.

240 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:23:46pm
241 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:24:00pm

re: #171 Alouette

Hitchens is fixated on Baruch Goldstein as an excuse to hate all Orthodox Jews.

Well, at least he picked someone suitable...

////////////////////

242 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:24:14pm

re: #233 solomonpanting

He also may have been able to use the quote attributed to Lenin:

"The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."

Good point.

243 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:24:14pm

re: #236 J.S.

No, of course not! Heaven Forfend! An antisemite! Perish the thought!

Yeah, so he simply uses "sources" from websites such as Radio Islam...yeah, no big deal there.

I'm sorry, but you haven't read what I'd written prior.

Take Hitch to task about his sources. I've said it before, he's a bastard, but he's more honest than not.

244 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:24:56pm
245 MadJadBad  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:25:06pm

I don't understand why some people are so obsessed with pursuing a literal translation of the bible. It's almost like they need to do it to validate their faith.
The bible was written by people who had no concept of natural selection. It's unreasonable to have expected them to write about something out of the context of the world they lived in. The bible has nothing in it about electricity, radio waves, automobiles or computers, so should we not teach about those things in school?

246 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:25:08pm

re: #227 Dianna

Quite inaccurate. If anything, anti-semites detest secular Jews even more, viewing them as infiltrators.

I think anti-Semites like to have Jews such as Norman Finklestein, Tony Judt, Gerald Kaufman, etc. as a fig leaf for their own Jew-hate. Neturei Karta, not so much.

247 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:25:19pm

At least someone has the bright sense to finally declare a war where there should be one.

Toad Wars

May the tadpole be with you ....

248 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:25:57pm

re: #223 JCM

We made the mess......

I wish all the Lizards, no matter what side of the "god" issue you are on, I wish all Lizards could see our current production of "The Visitor."

While the Nazi's are over running Vienna, and his daughter Anna is being interrogated by the Gestapo, a visitor invades Sigmund Freud's office, claiming to be God.

A cross between vaudeville and tragedy, this show presents a battle of wits between Freud and the mysterious visitor.

People must be very interested in this subject right now, since we have been selling out most of our performances for the first 5 weeks of a six week run.

Interesting.

249 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:26:18pm

re: #239 jayzee

I am still out on the anti-semitism debate, but you touch upon the reason I don't like him. It's one thing to be ideological, it is another thing to allow your ideology to make you intellectually dishonest.

Find me one person who doesn't have a soft spot for their prejudices.

I know I do. I'm just very, very careful, because I know precisely how arrogant I am. Hitch...is enamoured of his own cleverness and turns of phrase, to an extent I really hope never happens to me. And his hobby horses seem to ride him, sometimes.

250 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:27:10pm

re: #193 pingjockey

Ah. I believe in free will. But I do admit little things like Mao , Hitler, Stalin, the Plague etc.... do make ya wonder about a Supreme Being sometimes.

If everything were easy, everyone would automatically be virtuous. "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" (Robert Browning)

Everything isn't perfect, so the cardinal virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance), which go back to Plato's Republic, give us the tools and will to carry on. For those of us who are religious, the theological virtues - faith, hope, and charity - also give us strength.

251 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:27:11pm
252 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:27:23pm

Here we go......
Bailing Out of the Constitution

By George Will

It is high time Americans heard an argument that might turn a vague national uneasiness into a vivid awareness of something going very wrong. The argument is that the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (EESA) is unconstitutional.

By enacting it, Congress did not in any meaningful sense make a law. Rather, it made executive branch officials into legislators. Congress said to the executive branch, in effect: "Here is $700 billion. You say you will use some of it to buy up banks' 'troubled assets.' But if you prefer to do anything else with the money -- even, say, subsidize automobile companies -- well, whatever."

FreedomWorks, a Washington-based libertarian advocacy organization, argues that EESA violates "the nondelegation doctrine." Although the text does not spell it out, the Constitution's logic and structure -- particularly the separation of powers -- imply limits on the size and kind of discretion that Congress may confer on the executive branch.

1) George Will is a lying scumbag. I don't know why he still has a job after his embarrassing global warming article.

2)Freedom Works is the same group that just took over the Florida Tea Party protest and paid the insurance to have the protest. From the Freedom Works YouTube page under "favorite books"...

Anything by Gordon Tullock and James M. Buchanan, The Constitution of The United States

3) Just because you don't like something doesn't make it unconstitutional. We spent the past 8 years with the left spouting the same nonsense. it seems the right is going to do the same thing.

253 J.S.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:28:16pm

re: #243 Dianna

I think on certain topics, of course, he might be honest...but on (what to call it?) "touchy" matters -- well, forget it...(I'm sure we've all met people who have certain "quirks"? "foibles?" where they "go off the rails" into full blown "rant mode"? and whatever said individual states while in a "rant," you just have to ignore -- well, that's Hitchens when discussing Judaism or religious Jews, etc. He goes off into "rant mode".)

254 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:28:20pm

re: #246 Alouette

I think anti-Semites like to have Jews such as Norman Finklestein, Tony Judt, Gerald Kaufman, etc. as a fig leaf for their own Jew-hate. Neturei Karta, not so much.

There's that, too. But I can't really get a mental handle on self-hating, much.

Though they do offer the anti-semites cover.

255 Steve  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:28:24pm

re: #247 Buster Bunny

At least someone has the bright sense to finally declare a war where there should be one.

Toad Wars

May the tadpole be with you ....

Maybe we could do that with certain politicians?

256 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:28:24pm

re: #249 Dianna

And his hobby horses seem to ride him, sometimes.

Now let's not drag Enumclaw into this.

257 Dragonwolf  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:29:09pm

re: #232 Neo Con since 9-11

Understood and accepted, but then his statement should have been qualified with something along the lines of "Since life first arose in the primordial soup 3.5 billion years ago". As it is written it allows for no such beginning and therefore, to my mind, is not a 'fact'.

In other words, correct ideas, presentation could be better, more explicit, less open to argument.

258 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:29:17pm
259 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:29:34pm

re: #250 Catttt
So very true. Whomever gave us free will.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:29:44pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Peaple like Baruch Goldstein and and Mohammad Atta are his idea of devoutly religious people and what religious devotion leads to. He ignores the good things faith brings and only focuses on the bad.

He also doesn't seem to care to understand the role of interpretation, commentary, and text analysis in Judaism.

Now, it's common to hear people say, when this infamous passage and others like it come up, that it's not intended to be "taken literally." One also often hears the excuse that some wicked things are done "in the name of" religion, as if the wicked things were somehow the result of a misinterpretation. But the nationalist rabbis who prepare Israeli soldiers for their mission seem to think that this book might be the word of God, in which case the only misinterpretation would be the failure to take it literally. (I hate to break it to you, but the people who think that God's will is revealed in scripture are known as "religious." Those who do not think so must try to find another name for themselves.)

I see people do this with Christianity and Islam as well, both from inside and out. Find a passage. Interpret the passage. Refuse to listen to any experts telling you what the passage traditionally means, or what the commentary is on the passage. Repeat.

261 pingjockey  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:29:50pm

Night folks.

262 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:29:54pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout

Freedom Works is apparently a Ron Paul advocacy group. So George Will is now pimping for Ron Paul.

Wonderful.

263 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:30:10pm

If these idiots are so adamant about pushing Creationism into the school curriculum they need to push the PI = 3 Biblical "mandate" as well.

264 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:30:40pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout

Here we go......
Bailing Out of the Constitution

By George Will

3) Just because you don't like something doesn't make it unconstitutional. We spent the past 8 years with the left spouting the same nonsense. it seems the right is going to do the same thing.

Why did you bold "James Buchanan"?

265 lostlakehiker  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:30:52pm

re: #145 Kosh's Shadow

I'm waiting for some Muslim who carries out an "honor killing" to argue that it is required by his religion, and prosecuting him is against the 1st amendment.

I'll be nervous when it appears that he can succeed.

When he can claim that no kuffar court has any authority over him, and back it up with mob law, then it'll be too late.

266 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:31:06pm

re: #245 MadJadBad

Here's one reason McLeroy does what he does. He recommended this book, which proposes that there is a conspiracy by the National Academy of Science to spread atheism.

Sowing Atheism: The National Academy of Sciences' Sinister Scheme to Teach Our Children They're Descended from Reptiles

[Link: www.amazon.com...]
Here's his letter recommending the book:
[Link: solvinglight.com...]

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:31:48pm

re: #199 Alouette

Except that he goes beyond Goldstein's unique act of insanity and makes the bogus claim about Jewish doctors not saving lives of gentile patients on the Sabbath. Where he gets this shit from I do not know, but it's not from Judaism.

There was an article in the NY Times magazine about a year ago that touched on that. It's one of those striking cases of supreme BS--someone has an obscure Gemara that is supposed to counterbalance hundreds of years of actual practice by real Jewish doctors.

268 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:32:17pm

re: #253 J.S.

I must - respectfully - disagree.

I don't know why you're determined to tar Hitch with that brush. Call him a religious bigot, and I won't disagree, but I honestly think you're allowing your hobby horse to ride you, here.

269 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:32:20pm

re: #266 jaunte

Here's one reason McLeroy does what he does. He recommended this book, which proposes that there is a conspiracy by the National Academy of Science to spread atheism.

Sowing Atheism: The National Academy of Sciences' Sinister Scheme to Teach Our Children They're Descended from Reptiles

[Link: www.amazon.com...]
Here's his letter recommending the book:
[Link: solvinglight.com...]

This was an LGF post:

Texas School Board Chairman Endorses Book Calling Pro-Evolution Parents 'Monsters'

270 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:32:24pm

Posted for my upstairs neighbors.

271 lostlakehiker  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:32:28pm

re: #180 Dragonwolf

O.T.
Wasn't sure where to ask this but I knew it had to be in an evolution topic. In the front page post for Sat. overnight thread is a quote by R. C. Lewontin. Did anyone else notice the oops in his argument (a single point NOT the argument as a whole)? In the middle of his list of facts he states
"It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms."
My question would be 'what previous living form did the original single cell organisms on this planet come from?' Since, if this statement is indeed fact, then it must follow that life in some form preceded the big bang, that life existed before time or the universe.
If we are going to demand accuracy in the teaching of science, which is a good thing, then perhaps we should not so pompously (from my perspective) just list facts that must be accepted without first checking for statements that would leave us open to the counter-argument "well, if this statement is demonstrably wrong, how can we be honest without questioning all the others?" or some other such twaddle.

The DI loonies have too many people flummoxed as it is, let's not give them even the hint of any other straw to grasp at.

It is a fact that NOWADAYS, all living forms come from other living forms. Science is not in a position to assert which was the first living form, the chicken or the egg.

272 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:33:20pm

re: #258 ploome hineni

191 Dark_Falcon

what do you know about the days leading up to Dr Goldsteins actions?

I know nothing. Enlighten me, please. And please do be aware that I was not intending attack any religion with my mention of those two murderers.

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:33:28pm

re: #206 Catttt

Geez. The Russian couple upstairs are having a huge (verbal) fight. I think the man just ran down. I'm glad I'm single. God, they're loud when they fight.

I can hear every word from the patio (I went out to smoke and make sure there was no blood involved), but the only word I understand is "Nyet! Nyet! Nyet!"

Russians is one of those languages that just sounds urgent.

274 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:33:35pm

re: #258 ploome hineni

191 Dark_Falcon

what do you know about the days leading up to Dr Goldsteins actions?

I know I don't know anything. I assume he faced some remarkably bad stressors?

275 The Other Les  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:34:34pm

re: #266 jaunte

Actually, I think trying to spread atheism is a big honking waste of time.

276 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:34:48pm

re: #262 Charles

I looked at their main webpage. It seems their run by Dick Armey and Steve Forbes. Lot's of Fair Tax, tea party stuff. They're at least a little nutty.

277 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:35:08pm

re: #262 Charles

Freedom Works is apparently a Ron Paul advocacy group. So George Will is now pimping for Ron Paul.

Wonderful.

Freedom Works is also the outfit that is taking responsibility for the Cape Coral Tea Party:

[Link: www.freedomworks.org...]

Not good news for the movement.

278 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:35:18pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

This spake Hitchens:

But the nationalist rabbis who prepare Israeli soldiers for their mission seem to think that this book might be the word of God, in which case the only misinterpretation would be the failure to take it literally. (I hate to break it to you, but the people who think that God's will is revealed in scripture are known as "religious." Those who do not think so must try to find another name for themselves.)

And Hitchens knows this how? Has he spoken to any dati-leumi (religious Zionist) chaplains in the IDF? Or did he make up this interpretation by his very own self and then unload it on to the IDF rabbis as "their beliefs."

279 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:36:04pm

re: #264 Dianna

Oh shit, I thought it said Pat Buchanan.
/Boy, is my face red

280 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:36:13pm

re: #275 The Other Les

Actually, I think trying to spread atheism is a big honking waste of time.

The fear of it seems to be the big rallying cry for the creationists.

281 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:36:19pm

re: #249 Dianna

Find me one person who doesn't have a soft spot for their prejudices.

I know I do. I'm just very, very careful, because I know precisely how arrogant I am. Hitch...is enamoured of his own cleverness and turns of phrase, to an extent I really hope never happens to me. And his hobby horses seem to ride him, sometimes.

Right, no one's perfect, I understand, but still, there is no need to put much stock in to what he's saying when there are other, more cautious, controlled minds out there saying and doing great things.
For example, Buchanan is considered to be a conservative pundit by many, I choose to listen to others.

282 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:36:23pm

re: #278 Alouette

This spake Hitchens:

And Hitchens knows this how? Has he spoken to any dati-leumi (religious Zionist) chaplains in the IDF? Or did he make up this interpretation by his very own self and then unload it on to the IDF rabbis as "their beliefs."

He - most unwisely - relied on The New York Times.

They only retracted today.

I must urge you to write to Hitch, himself.

283 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:36:52pm

re: #259 pingjockey

So very true. Whomever gave us free will.

being wholly and totally free to anything they want to do, but die

284 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:37:14pm
285 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:37:16pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Oh shit, I thought it said Pat Buchanan.
/Boy, is my face red

I thought that might have been your mistake. I just didn't want you running with it.

For all I know, James Buchanan's worse. But his name meant nothing to me.

286 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:38:01pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Russians is one of those languages that just sounds urgent.

That's the main reason I don't freak out when they yell. By American standards, they're loud even when they aren't fighting.

287 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:38:16pm
288 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:38:42pm

re: #281 jayzee

Oh.

You don't know about my years and years of devotion to Christopher Hitchens drunken footsteps.

Even after I went from wishy-washy to conservative, I still read the Nation, just for Hitch.

289 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:38:48pm

re: #277 Salamantis

Freedom Works is also the outfit that is taking responsibility for the Cape Coral Tea Party:

[Link: www.freedomworks.org...]

Not good news for the movement.

Great, another good movement being hijacked by nuts. I bet the event discredits the Tea Party movement by being a parade of Nirthers, Troofers, and Paulistas. Waahhh, I WANT MY PARTY BACK!

290 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:39:26pm

re: #287 ploome hineni

so many people posting about DrGoldstein's insanity

and no one make the slightest effort to type his name into google

I didn't comment on Goldtein - I am having a bloody awful time keeping up with the three conversations I'm running, here!

291 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:39:26pm
292 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:39:41pm

re: #278 Alouette

This spake Hitchens:


And Hitchens knows this how? Has he spoken to any dati-leumi (religious Zionist) chaplains in the IDF? Or did he make up this interpretation by his very own self and then unload it on to the IDF rabbis as "their beliefs."

I don't think he understands 'interpretation'. It's the same problem as with people who read the Bible 'literally', and so can't see any possible interpretation but their own. Except in this case it's being projected on to others.

293 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:39:48pm

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

Great, another good movement being hijacked by nuts. I bet the event discredits the Tea Party movement by being a parade of Nirthers, Troofers, and Paulistas. Waahhh, I WANT MY PARTY BACK!

Well, this came up a couple of weeks ago. We all saw the "writing on the wall" and it looks like its full steam ahead on the crazy train.

294 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:39:50pm

re: #262 Charles

Freedom Works is apparently a Ron Paul advocacy group. So George Will is now pimping for Ron Paul.

Wonderful.

And yet, the argument Will makes in the piece is an interesting one.

295 JCM  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:39:51pm

re: #285 Dianna

I thought that might have been your mistake. I just didn't want you running with it.

For all I know, James Buchanan's worse. But his name meant nothing to me.

James Buchanan, 15th POTUS. He's routinely ranked as one of the worst, he was POTUS before Lincoln and contributed to the start of the Civil War in no small way.

296 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:40:05pm

re: #279 Killgore Trout

Maybe it's this James Buchanan:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

297 funky chicken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:40:14pm

Sharmuta and Charles and Gus (and others):

[Link: network.nationalpost.com...]

David Frum, making a lot of sense....and I'm not a huge fan of his, and don't agree with his Palin criticism because I think she's quite impressive. But I like this column/article.

298 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:40:21pm
299 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:40:51pm
300 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:41:03pm

re: #284 ploome hineni

you should be posting from some factual basis, and it is obvious you are not

too many people assume the worst motives, and even insanity on the part of Dr Goldstein

just like Jenin and Gaza

too ready to believe the lies

Sir, please explain. I have not sought to offend you.

301 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:41:21pm

re: #295 JCM

James Buchanan, 15th POTUS. He's routinely ranked as one of the worst, he was POTUS before Lincoln and contributed to the start of the Civil War in no small way.

Yes, but he didn't have a thing to do with the article being discussed.

302 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:41:39pm

re: #291 Charles

freedomworks ron paul - Google Search

Last thing we need is his finger prints on the Tea Parties. The press will allow him to hijack the movement and characterize it as being run by extremist nut jobs.

303 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:41:41pm

re: #284 ploome hineni

you should be posting from some factual basis, and it is obvious you are not

too many people assume the worst motives, and even insanity on the part of Dr Goldstein

just like Jenin and Gaza

too ready to believe the lies

I sincrely doubt that if Baruch Goldstein had been Muslim and had shot up a Jewish temple and murdered several worshippers there that you would be defending him.

So why the double standard? The answer to the perceived religious bigotry of others is not to endeavor to counter it with your own set of prejudices.

Shooting up a place of worship and gunning down several of the worshippers is horrifically wrong, regardless of what the faiths of the murderer and the murdered are.

304 Dragonwolf  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:41:43pm

re: #271 lostlakehiker

It is a fact that NOWADAYS, all living forms come from other living forms. Science is not in a position to assert which was the first living form, the chicken or the egg.

I agree. But his statement does not allow for an original living form, yet he claims it as a fact.

I understand that this is a semantics argument, but how much of public understanding and opinion is based on carefully crafted perspectives that are spoon fed to the public. DI's main tactic. Human history has shown that 'mob mentality' can easily subvert logic and rationalism. I'm merely suggesting that the scientific side take the time to consider how it presents things to the masses. Let our communications be more effective than their's that the facts of science can flowly unhindered in our schools.

305 J.S.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:42:40pm

re: #268 Dianna

Well, I believe we will have to disagree...I believe his hatred of religious Jews, Judaism, etc. totally blinds him...(especially so when he quotes as "sources" notorious antisemites. For me, this means, he cannot be trusted...his "credibility" is sullied...Of course, others will have totally different opinions -- that's perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned...)

306 funky chicken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:42:50pm

re: #289 Dark_Falcon

Great, another good movement being hijacked by nuts. I bet the event discredits the Tea Party movement by being a parade of Nirthers, Troofers, and Paulistas. Waahhh, I WANT MY PARTY BACK!

Dark Falcon, you may like this Frum column too:
[Link: network.nationalpost.com...]

and you may be interested in this group:
[Link: www.republican-leadership.com...]

307 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:43:04pm

re: #297 funky chicken

Sharmuta and Charles and Gus (and others):

[Link: network.nationalpost.com...]

David Frum, making a lot of sense....and I'm not a huge fan of his, and don't agree with his Palin criticism because I think she's quite impressive. But I like this column/article.

Thanks, I'll read it later. I've listened to him before on Blogging Heads and he always provided me with some interesting insights. I know he's not exactly the darling of the paleo-conservatives but that life in America -- there's always someone to dislike and always a bias to pin on them. Not unlike what we see done to Hitchens.

308 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:43:13pm

re: #291 Charles

From you link...
Dick Armey and Ron Paul Discuss Obama Stimulus Plans

Yeesh!

309 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:43:39pm
310 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:44:16pm

re: #299 ploome hineni

me too

lol

going very fast, isn;t it?

I don't use that auto update thing (very nice, Charles, really, but too fast for me most of the time) - high stress factor!

311 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:44:30pm

re: #288 Dianna

Fair enough. We all have our addictions.

312 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:44:37pm

re: #302 BryanS

Too late the Paulians are already all over the tea party thing. Quite a few of the protests are organized by Paulians.

313 Salem  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:44:44pm

I wonder if McElroy is afeared of them Texas terrydacktills I've heard so much about. The kids should be warned about those in science class, too, not just Darwin and el chupacabra.

314 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:45:03pm
315 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:45:11pm

re: #309 ploome hineni

you did not offend me

my style is very direct.........that is the way I think

sometimes too aggressive........sorry about that

You are forgiven.

316 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:45:59pm

re: #313 Salem

I wonder if McElroy is afeared of them Texas terrydacktills I've heard so much about. The kids should be warned about those in science class, too, not just Darwin and el chupacabra.

El Chupacabra may be the greatest threat facing America today. They are spreading North. And they now eat housecats, as well as goats.

/my students like to share facts with me

317 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:46:31pm

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think he understands 'interpretation'. It's the same problem as with people who read the Bible 'literally', and so can't see any possible interpretation but their own. Except in this case it's being projected on to others.

Well, Jews do not interpret the Bible literally. We have specific exegetical traditions for certain commandments, such as "an eye for an eye" which really means that the person who is deprived of his sight in an accident should be compensated for the loss of his sight. It is tort law, not criminal proceedings.

As to the earth being created in 6 days, we weren't around while G-D was performing acts of Creation, a creation day could be many millions of years while the species evolve according to G-d's blueprint. But the point of the 6-day narrative, is to give us, Jewish humans, the Sabbath Day as a symbol of G-d's labor of creation. It would be tough for ordinary mortals to keep the Sabbath if it only came along once every 600 million years!

318 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:46:33pm

re: #295 JCM

James Buchanan, 15th POTUS. He's routinely ranked as one of the worst, he was POTUS before Lincoln and contributed to the start of the Civil War in no small way.

But is he the James M. Buchanan that was bolded in KT's #252? I believe it was James McGill Buchanan, Jr.

319 JCM  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:47:10pm

re: #318 FurryOldGuyJeans

But is he the James M. Buchanan that was bolded in KT's #252? I believe it was James McGill Buchanan, Jr.

That makes more sense......

320 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:47:20pm

re: #314 ploome hineni

(checks wallet) Do you sell indulgences?

321 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:47:23pm

re: #312 Killgore Trout

Too late the Paulians are already all over the tea party thing. Quite a few of the protests are organized by Paulians.

That is simply a shame. The press will cling to the Paulian affinity to their idea. Maybe we need more Santelli rants to draw the press's attention away from Paul. Then we can call it Santellian :)

322 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:47:45pm
323 funky chicken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:48:00pm

Huh. At least FreedomWorks doesn't feature social/religious conservatism on their issues page. At first glance, their issues page doesn't bother me.

[Link: www.freedomworks.org...]

Too bad they've been subsumed by the Paulnuts.

324 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:48:17pm

re: #284 ploome hineni

too many people assume the worst motives, and even insanity on the part of Dr Goldstein

Gosh, I wonder where they get that idea?

///

325 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:48:17pm

re: #305 J.S.

Clearly, it's not acceptable to you.

Look, I cannot, and will not, defend every syllable every penned by Hitch. He's made some remarkably wrong-headed statements. He's been completely off the rails on a number of subjects, a number of times. But...I read his article, and what I got was that he'd read (and bought into, because of his own bigotry against religion qua religion) the New York Times article, and read its sources.

He's wrong, obviously.

Now, here's the interesting part. If you ask him about it, you might get some satisfaction. But asking me? What good does that do? I'm not Hitch! I've never met the man! I can't even claim to have read every word he's ever written. I can't speak for Hitch.

So we can wait, and see what he has to say for himself - and you never, ever know with Hitch - or, you can ask.

But a pretended tolerance, which merely means, "I'm not listening," does no one any good.

326 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:48:25pm
327 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:48:51pm

re: #314 ploome hineni

you are correct

I will defend Dr Goldstein till I die

Are you talking about Baruch Goldstein?

On February 25, 1994, that year's Purim day, Goldstein entered a room in the Cave of the Patriarchs serving as a mosque, wearing "his army uniform with the insignia of rank, creating the image of a reserve officer on active duty" (Shamgar report). He then opened fire, killing 29 Arab Muslims and wounding 150 (A Time Magazine article from March 7th, 1994 reported that Israeli officials counted 39 killed and Palestinians reported 52 killed [6]). Mosque guard Mohammad Suleiman Abu Saleh said he thought that Goldstein was trying to kill as many people as possible and described how there were "bodies and blood everywhere." After being subdued with a fire extinguisher and disarmed, Goldstein was beaten to death.[7] According to Ian Lustick, 'by mowing down Arabs he believed wanted to kill Jews, Goldstein was reenacting part of the Purim story'.[8]

328 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:49:40pm

re: #314 ploome hineni

you are correct

I will defend Dr Goldstein till I die

Then you are lost.

329 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:49:58pm

Creationists on the Right, Chinese hacking GhostNet on the Left. And we have the TOTUS telling the POTUS to spend us into total economic collapse.

whee. :%P%

330 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:50:08pm

re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist

El Chupacabra may be the greatest threat facing America today. They are spreading North. And they now eat housecats, as well as goats.

/my students like to share facts with me

Do your students really believe in El Chupacrabra? Or do they do that dead-pan "can you top this?" humor?

331 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:50:46pm
332 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:51:17pm
333 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:51:42pm

re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist

El Chupacabra may be the greatest threat facing America today. They are spreading North. And they now eat housecats, as well as goats.

/my students like to share facts with me

That was no Chupacabra. That was Manbearpig.

334 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:51:52pm

I'm outta here. See you on the morning thread.

335 Salem  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:52:04pm

re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist

El Chupacabra may be the greatest threat facing America today. They are spreading North. And they now eat housecats, as well as goats.

/my students like to share facts with me

Well, hopefully they're good grilled with barbecue sauce.

336 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:52:11pm

re: #330 Dianna

Do your students really believe in El Chupacrabra? Or do they do that dead-pan "can you top this?" humor?

Depends. The older kids, the juniors and seniors, just swap stories, they think it's funny, and pick up tales off the Internet. The freshmen are only thirteen or fourteen, and I think some of them do believe. When I taught middle school, there was some serious Chupacabra-belief going on.

337 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:52:23pm
338 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:52:54pm

re: #332 ploome hineni

who the fuck are you?

lol

tell someone who cares

Okay, gleefully show us more of how barking mad you are, then. Whatever.

339 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:53:36pm

re: #337 ploome hineni

yes

Here's the victim list:

AbdelHak Ibrahim AbdelHak Al Ja'bari, 55
AbdelRahim AbdelRahman Abu Sneineh, 48
Ahmad Aballah Mohammad Taha Abu Sneineh, 25
Ala' Badr AbdelHalim Taha Abu Sneineh, 17
Arafat Musa Yosef Borkan, 28
Eyyad Hussein AbdelAziz Abuhadid Abu Sneineh, 22
Hatem Nimr Khader Al Fakhouri, 26
Kamal Jamal AbdelMughni Kafeisheh, 13
Khaled Khalawi A. Hussein Abu Sneineh, 58
Khaled Mohammad Hamzeh Al Karaki, 18
Jameel Ayed AbdelFattah Al Natshih, 48
Jabr A'aref AbuHadid Abu Sneineh, 11
Mahmoud Saddek Mohammad Abu Za'nooneh, 49
Marwan Mutlaq Hamid Abu Nijmih, 32
Mohammad Ayyed Izzat Elatrash Abu Sneineh, 21
Mohammad Kifah AbdelMuiz Zakaria Maraka, 11
Mohammad Raji Zein AbdelKhalek Gheith, 47
Mohammad Zeidan Hammoudah AbdelMajeed Jaber, 26
Nimr Mohammad Nimr Mojahed, 34
Raed AbdelMuttaleb Hasan Al Natshih, 20
Rami Arafat Ali Al Rajabi, 11
Saber Musa Husni Katbeh Badr, 37
Salim Idreis Falah Idreis, 27
Salman Awwad E'layyan Al Ja'bari, 37
Sufian Barakat O'of Zahdeh, 21
Talal Mohammad Dawud Mahmoud Dandeis, 26
Tareq Adnan Mohammad A'ashour Abu Sneineh, 14
Wael Salah Ya'kub Al Muhtaseb, 28
Walid Zuheir Mahfooth Abu Hamdieh, 13

340 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:53:39pm

re: #316 SanFranciscoZionist

El Chupacabra may be the greatest threat facing America today. They are spreading North. And they now eat housecats, as well as goats.

/my students like to share facts with me

We here in the PNW have a flux of rabid raccoons that are attacking and killing house pets many times their size. El Chupacabra would be an appetizer for the raccoons.

341 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:53:40pm

re: #336 SanFranciscoZionist

Interesting!

342 tradewind  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:53:43pm

Hitchens is interesting a lot of the time, and can craft a good argument when he's sober , but he really dropped the ball last week when he told Bill Maher that BHO's answer to ' why didn't you speak out earlier re AIG bonuses' was an intelligent one....
The president said ' because I like to know what I am talking about first', and Hitch praised him for it..... when the truth is that Obama knew, and had known, for over two months exactly what the bonus situation was. So Hitchens was either suckered in, or he deliberately shilled for Teh One.
I tend to think he simply didn't have the facts.

343 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:54:26pm
344 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:54:28pm

I find it interesting that some folks are attacking Hitch for perceived antisemitism when the article under discussion isn't even remotely about Judaism. It smacks to me a bit of a circuitous attempt to ad hominem discredit the man, and by extension, his opinions in the article, while not directly addressing the article itself. I do note that some who are pursuing this course are not big fans of Charles' stance on the evolution vs. creationism in public schools issue, but decline to publicly and directly criticize it on this blog, perhaps because they realize that their differences are emotional, and they lack intellectual justification for them.

It reminds me of the folks who were trying to insist that Darwin's work on evolution was worthless because he was a racist, or an enabler of nazism, or some other such irrelevant and ungermane dreck. Whether or not the contentions were true (nd in Darwin's case they were not), they had absolutely nothing to do with his evolutionary theory, just as accusations of Hitchensian antisemitism, whether true or not, have nothing whatsoever to do with the soundness or validity of the article in question.

If any here have an issue with the article, at last have the cojones to take issue with it directly, rather than using underhanded and passive-agressive means.

345 zombie  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:54:48pm

OK, I just watched the whole video.

Holy cow. This guy McLeroy is a complete and utter ignoramus of the highest order. And on top of that, he's lying and he knows he's lying.

An amoral idiot. Running education in Texas, the third-most populous state in the nation.

He not only has little more than a surface familiarity with various scientific buzzwords, he doesn't even seem to know what they're referring to.

He uses Stephen J. Gould's own words to promote creationism. How contemptible. I hope Gould reaches out of Atheists' Limbo and smacks some sense into this cretin.

346 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:55:03pm
347 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:55:19pm

re: #339 Gus 802

Jabr A'aref AbuHadid Abu Sneineh, 11

Oooh, yeah, that one sounds particularly dangerous. Good thing Dr. Goldstein stepped up to the challenge.

////

348 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:55:36pm

The loons are getting even more angry. Just received through the contact form:

Cape Coral was unable to silence the people. Tea Party is back on!

I know that'll piss you off, but as part of the "vast middle" I thought I'd let you know.

The right wing is beginning to get seriously crazy. Impervious to logic, and belligerent about it.

349 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:56:55pm

re: #346 ploome hineni

so what?

So you think it's just fine to murder innocent women and children now?

350 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:57:06pm

re: #346 ploome hineni

so what?

So what? The man was stark raving mad and mowed down innocent people. He's a murderer and there's nothing anyone can say to defend him.

351 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:57:33pm

re: #322 ploome hineni

Religiously prejudiced excuses for a premeditated and religiously motivated mass murderer.

352 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:57:52pm

ploome, you're a Kahanist, aren't you?

353 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:57:55pm

re: #348 Charles

The loons are getting even more angry. Just received through the contact form:

The right wing is beginning to get seriously crazy. Impervious to logic, and belligerent about it.

The Left had 8 years of displaying that attitude, so the Right is just playing catch-up, apparently. Adults acting like kids.

354 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:58:42pm
355 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:58:56pm

re: #347 Occasional Reader

Oooh, yeah, that one sounds particularly dangerous. Good thing Dr. Goldstein stepped up to the challenge.

////

What a "hero" aye?

356 J.S.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:59:12pm

re: #325 Dianna

WHAT? ! You have not read every word ever written by Hitchens?! I'm flabbergasted! (just joking. Isn't silence, though, akin to tolerance? Or one just ignores the annoying? I was reading Ezra Levant's musings on Hate Speech (the criminal variety), and it was about Canada's first person successfully charged with the crime of Hate Speech...It was a German antisemite. At first he'd mimeograph nasty things, climb up onto the roofs of tall buildings, and distribute the material...that didn't get much of a response...so, then, years later, the telephone answering machine came along -- lol -- he made up recordings, then passed around business cards...for people to phone in to listen to the "sayings." That's what got him charged...someone phoned his antisemitic hot line 20-30 times (?), then phoned the cops...the question then becomes, if the messages were so offensive, why phone over and over and over again?)

357 NY Nana  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:59:12pm

re: #240 ploome hineni

Ploomie:

And also ZAKA, Orthodox volunteers, in Israel, who will go to an emergency on the Sabbath, and even Yom Kippur.

Whenever a homicide bomber(s) explodes, and kills innocent Jews, they treat his remains with the same respect as they do the innocents. They have far too much experience in disasters, and are also on their way to any country, at their own expense.

And there are Jew hating countries that refuse their aid. Whatever happens to those bastions of Jew hate? It is more than deserved.

358 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 8:59:42pm

re: #346 ploome hineni

So being Islamic is worthy of being butchered now?

359 Jim D  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:00:12pm

re: #354 ploome hineni

..I will not allow you to judge what Jews NEED TO DO


Jews need to kill 11 year old muslims? You are disgusting.

360 funky chicken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:00:14pm

re: #335 Salem

Well, hopefully they're good grilled with barbecue sauce.

If not, they might make decent sausage :-).

361 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:00:28pm

re: #354 ploome hineni

do you have the list of arabs that have been killed, hung from tractors and lamposts, kicked in the streets like dogs

by other arabs?

you have a list of women raped and slaughtered by ther brothers and fathers ?

do you have a list of women and children raped and fitted with bomb vests to kill Jews>?

..I will not allow you to judge what Jews NEED TO DO

in the face of the FUCKING INDIFFERENCE TO DYING JEWS

the world LOVES dead Jews

worships DEAD JEWS

That's not the issue. No one should be killing innocent people regardless if they are Jews or Muslims. No killing by one group of the other group justifies revenge killing of others.

362 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:00:36pm

re: #354 ploome hineni

..I will not allow you to judge what Jews NEED TO DO

Your implication that Jews "need to" gun down Muslims (including children) at prayer is an insult to Jews. (And yes, damn right I said it, even though I'm not Jewish.)

363 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:01:20pm

re: #331 ploome hineni

the same way they get the idea the Jews massacred arabs in Jennin and Gaza

and need gentile blood for matzos and pastried

and the muslims say the Jews killed their prophets, and the Christians say the Jews killed their God

/see?

To shamelessly and gratuitously equate ancient and false blood libels to an indisputable religiously motivated massacre is quantums beyond the pale of reasoned and rational discourse.

364 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:02:56pm

re: #354 ploome hineni

do you have the list of arabs that have been killed, hung from tractors and lamposts, kicked in the streets like dogs

by other arabs?

you have a list of women raped and slaughtered by ther brothers and fathers ?

do you have a list of women and children raped and fitted with bomb vests to kill Jews>?

..I will not allow you to judge what Jews NEED TO DO

in the face of the FUCKING INDIFFERENCE TO DYING JEWS

the world LOVES dead Jews

worships DEAD JEWS

That does not give a living Jew the right to kill children over the tombs of the Patriarchs.

Goldstein had an army. Goldstein had a nation. He was not helpless. And we will fight to defend ourselves, but we will never, never, act like our enemies.

365 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:03:04pm

re: #343 ploome hineni

I think Dark Falcon does

lol

I'm not a priest. You said you were sorry for something, and I forgave you, I was only trying to be decent.

And as for the matter of Dr. Goldstein: If he believed an Arab attack was imminent, the proper thing would have been to watch they area he expected it come from, not head right into it. The intel could have been wrong, and an officer is supposed to act prudently when confronted by such a situation. Respectfully, I submit that his actions were imprudent.

366 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:04:46pm

re: #356 J.S.

And this has to do with Hitch, exactly, what?

367 J.S.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:07:29pm

re: #366 Dianna

I was commenting on your line: "But a pretended tolerance, which merely means, "I'm not listening," does no one any good." (and suggesting, "heh." or something to that effect...)

It's late, I'm outta here...all the best, Dianna...

368 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:08:55pm

/he's the love wrangler!

369 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:09:35pm

re: #365 Dark_Falcon

I'm not a priest. You said you were sorry for something, and I forgave you, I was only trying to be decent.

And as for the matter of Dr. Goldstein: If he believed an Arab attack was imminent, the proper thing would have been to watch they area he expected it come from, not head right into it. The intel could have been wrong, and an officer is supposed to act prudently when confronted by such a situation. Respectfully, I submit that his actions were imprudent.

Imprudent is when you run a yellow light shading into pink. Massacring more than two dozen worshippers during services is something else altogether.

370 Dianna  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:10:06pm

Bed time.

Take care!

371 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:10:30pm

re: #322 ploome hineni

re: #322 ploome hineni

Rabbi Dr. Simons reviews the events leading up to Goldstein's attack. He raises the issue of Goldstein's prior knowledge of intelligence warnings, that Arabs planned a massacre of Jews -- Goldstein was an emergency doctor for the Kiryat Arba Terrorist Attack Response Team -- to take place that Purim morning in the Cave of Machpela. He Discusses whether Goldstein "planned" an attack on Arabs or "responded" to what he saw as the Israeli Army's indifference to an impending attack on Jews. He questions, "What if a Government Fails to Act?" and then analyzes the legal status of "Killings Sanctioned By Law," discussing "killing as an act of self-defense," "killing due to necessity," and "killing during a war."/blockquote>

You must be drunk out of your little mind tonight if this has become the level of your argument.

372 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:11:16pm

Hey Night Lizards! I was here earlier (well two threads down) and had to leave for awhile. Any good BBQ to be had?

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

373 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:11:46pm

re: #371 Naso Tang

re: #322 ploome hineni

Rabbi Dr. Simons reviews the events leading up to Goldstein's attack. He raises the issue of Goldstein's prior knowledge of intelligence warnings, that Arabs planned a massacre of Jews -- Goldstein was an emergency doctor for the Kiryat Arba Terrorist Attack Response Team -- to take place that Purim morning in the Cave of Machpela. He Discusses whether Goldstein "planned" an attack on Arabs or "responded" to what he saw as the Israeli Army's indifference to an impending attack on Jews. He questions, "What if a Government Fails to Act?" and then analyzes the legal status of "Killings Sanctioned By Law," discussing "killing as an act of self-defense," "killing due to necessity," and "killing during a war."/blockquote>

You must be drunk out of your little mind tonight if this has become the level of your argument.

She won't respond...

374 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:11:47pm

re: #348 Charles
Hi Charles - "The right wing is beginning to get seriously crazy. Impervious to logic, and belligerent about it."
I don't know all about the Cape Coral Tea Party, other than I gather Ron Paulians were involved in it. But I don't think it's accurate to say the right wing is beginning to....
The right wing extremists have always been around, they've just been sorta shouted out by the left wing extremists - especially those suffering from BDS, like Kos, HuffPoo, Moveon.org and the like. The difference is that the left wing extremists are now more or less in power. So we tend to notice the right wing extremists more (not talking about SO far right wing as say, Neo-Nazi's here - you and those of us who stand with you have noticed those particular fascist freaks for quite a while now) simply because the left wing loons have become commonplace and, as far as the MSM goes, respectable.
The thoughtful, intelligent centrists are the ones being squeezed out of public debate more and more.

375 lostlakehiker  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:11:50pm

re: #346 ploome hineni

so what?

So THIS: among the dead, there are children. So many that it cannot have been an accident. To send a bullet into a child, coldly and with malice, is not war. It is not self defense. It is atrocious.

How can you not see that? How can you defend a man who would do that? Put aside all his other killings. They too were murder and atrocious, but perhaps you may be forgiven for a little blindness on that point. But children?

376 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:12:24pm

re: #344 Salamantis

I find it interesting that some folks are attacking Hitch for perceived antisemitism when the article under discussion isn't even remotely about Judaism. It smacks to me a bit of a circuitous attempt to ad hominem discredit the man, and by extension, his opinions in the article, while not directly addressing the article itself. I do note that some who are pursuing this course are not big fans of Charles' stance on the evolution vs. creationism in public schools issue, but decline to publicly and directly criticize it on this blog, perhaps because they realize that their differences are emotional, and they lack intellectual justification for them.

It reminds me of the folks who were trying to insist that Darwin's work on evolution was worthless because he was a racist, or an enabler of nazism, or some other such irrelevant and ungermane dreck. Whether or not the contentions were true (nd in Darwin's case they were not), they had absolutely nothing to do with his evolutionary theory, just as accusations of Hitchensian antisemitism, whether true or not, have nothing whatsoever to do with the soundness or validity of the article in question.

If any here have an issue with the article, at last have the cojones to take issue with it directly, rather than using underhanded and passive-agressive means.

A dead watch is right twice a day, but you still shouldn't use it to tell time. Don't tell me that my criticisms are merely a thinly veiled attempt to promote intelligent design over evolution. They are not and your assertion is offensive.

377 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:12:27pm

re: #373 Walter L. Newton

She won't respond...

Oh, I don't know about that... 1, 2,3,....

378 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:13:32pm

Someone help me with some history, please. When did "the sins of the father" stop being passed to the son? Was it the Jews, the Christians? When did it get codified into secular law?

379 Daryl Herbert  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:14:13pm

The term "Darwin's Big Bang" is apparently a reference to the Cambrian Explosion. Doing some poking around online, it looks like Time Magazine once decided to call the Cambrian Explosion "Darwin's Big Bang" for a headline. Not sure if anyone else ever used that expression.

Let's look on the bright side, though: it's not like anyone needs to understand/believe in evolution in order to live a productive, useful life. A society could get by just fine if only 1% actually believed evolution was the sole means by which humans got here.

For example, look at bible-thumping creationist farmers. They understand that if you overuse antibiotics on their livestock, that this will give rise to antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria. They chalk it up to "microevolution," a term that most real scientists don't use and don't like. They understand just enough evolution to do their jobs.

America won't be doomed just because of this creationist nonsense. It won't even hurt our economy. However, the blowback may damage the Republican Party. (In the short run, given that more Americans believe in divine intervention than pure evolution, it may help Republicans, but we will have to pay the piper sooner or later.)

380 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:14:33pm

re: #354 ploome hineni

do you have the list of arabs that have been killed, hung from tractors and lamposts, kicked in the streets like dogs

by other arabs?

you have a list of women raped and slaughtered by ther brothers and fathers ?

do you have a list of women and children raped and fitted with bomb vests to kill Jews>?

..I will not allow you to judge what Jews NEED TO DO

in the face of the FUCKING INDIFFERENCE TO DYING JEWS

the world LOVES dead Jews

worships DEAD JEWS

Instead of this hopeless argument that Jews should commit murder because they themselves have been murdered, why not argue instead that Goldstein was not a murderer but rather was a man in a crazy place fighting a crazy war against a crazy enemy who snapped and went berserk?

381 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:14:55pm

re: #377 Naso Tang

Oh, I don't know about that... 1, 2,3,....

Not a single person here has shown any agreement with her position and they have neatly stated their reasons why.

She was posting right and left, until Lizards (including Charles), called here on her position.

She stopped cold.

This is ploome's standard operating procedure.

382 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:16:03pm

re: #369 Salamantis

Imprudent is when you run a yellow light shading into pink. Massacring more than two dozen worshippers during services is something else altogether.

I agree. My word choice was calculated to not escalate matters. ploome hineni has been a valued contributer to these forums. I want to him to stay, not leave in a huff or get banned. His comments tonight raise serious questions in my mind, but I want him to have a chance to answer them.

383 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:16:15pm

re: #346 ploome hineni

WTF? Supporting acts of terrorism now? This is a low point even for you.

384 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:16:20pm

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

I agree. My word choice was calculated to not escalate matters. ploome hineni has been a valued contributer to these forums. I want to him to stay, not leave in a huff or get banned. His comments tonight raise serious questions in my mind, but I want him to have a chance to answer them.

Her

385 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:16:51pm

re: #379 Daryl Herbert

"America won't be doomed just because of this creationist nonsense. It won't even hurt our economy."

A generation of children not educated to understand the basic scientific method won't hurt the country or the economy? Or do you think that a ignorant generation made ripe for a false messiah selling any snake oil is a good thing?

386 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:16:51pm

re: #378 ggt

Someone help me with some history, please. When did "the sins of the father" stop being passed to the son? Was it the Jews, the Christians? When did it get codified into secular law?

Clarify a little. Is that a theological question, a legal one, what?

/context, I need context!

387 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:16:57pm

re: #371 Naso Tang

You must be drunk out of your little mind tonight if this has become the level of your argument.

Yeah, I'm filing that one right next to "the Jews were all warned to stay home from the WTC on 9/11".

388 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:17:07pm

re: #354 ploome hineni

do you have the list of arabs that have been killed, hung from tractors and lamposts, kicked in the streets like dogs

by other arabs?

you have a list of women raped and slaughtered by ther brothers and fathers ?

do you have a list of women and children raped and fitted with bomb vests to kill Jews>?

..I will not allow you to judge what Jews NEED TO DO

in the face of the FUCKING INDIFFERENCE TO DYING JEWS

the world LOVES dead Jews

worships DEAD JEWS

It would appear that Ploome loves dead Muslims no less, and thinks that Muslims just, in Wild West terminology, 'need killin'. At the very least, a distinct fondness for one of their mass murderers, whom Ploome has sworn to defend till death, has certainly been established.

389 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:18:11pm

re: #381 Walter L. Newton

I guess you are right. Drunks never like to be called out.

390 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:18:14pm

re: #388 Salamantis

It would appear that Ploome loves dead Muslims no less, and thinks that Muslims just, in Wild West terminology, 'need killin'. At the very least, a distinct fondness for one of their mass murderers, whom Ploome has sworn to defend till death, has certainly been established.

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." We've heard that many time before. Where does that end? It never ends.

391 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:18:26pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

Clarify a little. Is that a theological question, a legal one, what?

/context, I need context!

both. I guess, I think, it started theologically and then was accepted as law --somewhere, sometime. Just wondering about the actual history. Seems there is a lot of "Hatfield and McCoy" kinda talk going on.

392 NY Nana  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:18:27pm

If any of your parents went through what Ploomie's did, and you were born in a DP camp, like Ploomie, after the war, you would feel the same.

I was blessed to be born here, and lived through WWII, while most of my grandparents' families died in the camps.

When I was old enough to realize what had happened re the Holocaust? It has stayed with me all these years, and anyone who has not experienced what Ploomie did, and those of us who were born in the late 1930's? And also those, who, like me, faced Jew hate that was rampant when I was growing up in Boston, and is now endemic, soon to reach pandemic proportions world-wide? I am with Ploomie 100 % on this.

Enough wanton Jew killing while the arabs ululate, share sweetmeats, and plan their next attack on babies, women, anyone they can kill who is a Jew.

See this, and be reminded:

393 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:18:41pm

re: #378 ggt

Someone help me with some history, please. When did "the sins of the father" stop being passed to the son? Was it the Jews, the Christians? When did it get codified into secular law?

It is another manifestation of Collectivism.
Same type of logic that says that while you may not have ever owned slaves, and even may have had ancestors that helped free the slaves, you benefited from slavery as an institution, and therefore, pay up, sucka.

394 Achilles Tang  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:19:10pm

Time to go.

Goodnight

395 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:19:45pm
396 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:20:41pm

re: #391 ggt

both. I guess, I think, it started theologically and then was accepted as law --somewhere, sometime. Just wondering about the actual history. Seems there is a lot of "Hatfield and McCoy" kinda talk going on.

Per Terry Pratchett:

A fight is started by 'what they said about our Sharon'.

A feud is started by 'what their ancestors said about our Sharon'.

A war is started by 'what their crown prince said about our Sharon'.

397 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:20:42pm

re: #392 NY Nana

If any of your parents went through what Ploomie's did, and you were born in a DP camp, like Ploomie, after the war, you would feel the same.

Um... so do ALL Jews who grew up under those circumstances celebrate the slaughter of Arab children at prayer? Please.

398 nocensorship  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:20:45pm

re: #80 Alouette

He is a hater of Jews and Judaism, and eager to embrace the worst lies of the "Talmudic Jew." Read the article that I linked in the spinoffs.

He is no more hater of Judaism than of Christian ism or Islam. He is virulently opposed to all forms of institutionalized faith, a.k.a religions. His recent essay "God is not great. How religion poisons everything" proves it. One may agree or disagree, but this not makes him an antisemite.

399 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:20:50pm

re: #393 rawmuse

It is another manifestation of Collectivism.
Same type of logic that says that while you may not have ever owned slaves, and even may have had ancestors that helped free the slaves, you benefited from slavery as an institution, and therefore, pay up, sucka.

I'm not getting your reference to Collectivism, but yes, the reparations issue is one manifestation of the "sins of the father being passed to the son" that I am thinking of.

400 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:21:40pm
401 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:21:49pm

re: #384 Walter L. Newton

Her

I stand corrected, thank you.

402 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:22:30pm

re: #392 NY Nana

If any of your parents went through what Ploomie's did, and you were born in a DP camp, like Ploomie, after the war, you would feel the same.

I was blessed to be born here, and lived through WWII, while most of my grandparents' families died in the camps.

When I was old enough to realize what had happened re the Holocaust? It has stayed with me all these years, and anyone who has not experienced what Ploomie did, and those of us who were born in the late 1930's? And also those, who, like me, faced Jew hate that was rampant when I was growing up in Boston, and is now endemic, soon to reach pandemic proportions world-wide? I am with Ploomie 100 % on this.

Enough wanton Jew killing while the arabs ululate, share sweetmeats, and plan their next attack on babies, women, anyone they can kill who is a Jew.

See this, and be reminded:

[Video]

Sorry, not an excuse. maybe an explanation, but it still doesn't make her posit on the doctor any more right.

And please, do not assume that no one on this blog understands (or has first hand knowledge) of those topics you mention above.

403 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:22:55pm

re: #395 ploome hineni

did you read the whole article?

I did, questions?

404 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:22:58pm

re: #390 Gus 802

You going to go into the "cycle of violence" nonsense? Whatever you think of PH, that last line was wrong if that's what you meant.

405 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:23:09pm

re: #379 Daryl Herbert
Well

America won't be doomed just because of this creationist nonsense. It won't even hurt our economy. However, the blowback may damage the Republican Party.

may be correct as far as it goes. But creationism being taught in Public Schools is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't want the Government's - Federal or State or Local - supporting religion at all. I don't disagree that TODAY'S creationist nonsense will doom America, but it's a start to our - or at least my- cherished belief that the government ought not to support any religion and that IS a blow to America. Moreover, I certainly don't want public school teachers teaching religion to my children under the guise of science.

406 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:23:18pm

re: #392 NY Nana

An additional wrong rights nothing, it is just another wrong added onto a pile of them. And by any decent and human measure, the intentional slaughter of worshipping children is INEXCUSABLY and UNJUSTIFIABLY WRONG, no matter who does it or who it is done to, or what the religions involved are.

407 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:23:50pm

re: #354 ploome hineni

Murder of anyone - I don't care what their faith or lack of same - by ANYONE - is still the foul act of murder. With your xenophobic defense of someone who incontrovertibly mowed down dozens of unarmed people at prayer, you sound just like those you call enemy. The murderer himself was then murdered - that too was murder most foul.

408 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:23:58pm

re: #399 ggt

This person is (a)(fill in the blank) and in the past they (b)(fill in your pet grievance) therefore all persons related to (a) are responsible for (b).

Collectivism.

409 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:24:16pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

"No longer will the childrens teeth be set on edge."

"The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the childrens' teeth are on edge."
Look up these two old testament phrases. I think they are the key.

410 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:24:43pm

re: #392 NY Nana

I am with Ploomie 100 % on this.

This is a nightmare. Someone please wake me.

411 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:25:03pm

re: #397 Occasional Reader

You are being a bit cold.

412 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:25:08pm

There are days where I feel like the world is on fire with a madness, and no one is bringing water for the fire, but rather gasoline.

413 NY Nana  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:25:18pm

And look at this video, and see who the arabs especially love to kill...this is a reality every day for Israeli parents when they send their kids to school...or anywhere. And Shalhevet Pas HY"D would be the same age as my nearly 9-year old granddaughter. what did these innocents do to deserve what was done to them, in Israel, the Jewish homeland?

414 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:25:34pm
415 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:25:41pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

This is a nightmare. Someone please wake me.

I agree. I do not fucking believe what I'm reading here.

416 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:25:50pm

re: #404 jayzee

You going to go into the "cycle of violence" nonsense? Whatever you think of PH, that last line was wrong if that's what you meant.

No, it's not a "cycle of violence" nonsense. To justify an equal response to terrorism is the same as an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. It has nothing to do with one individual but is related to an ideology or a critical reaction to those that justify criminal and/or terroristic behavior.

417 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:26:18pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

This is a nightmare. Someone please wake me.

I know- I don't know what to say....

Nana- you are very loved here. Please don't give in to hatred.

418 tradewind  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:26:27pm

Okayyy, this seems like a good time for a ROP update.
(We simply must stop demonizing this religion)...
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

419 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:26:37pm

re: #408 rawmuse

This person is (a)(fill in the blank) and in the past they (b)(fill in your pet grievance) therefore all persons related to (a) are responsible for (b).

Collectivism.

That's just too d@mn simple to remember. I put in my favorites for future reference.

:)

420 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:26:54pm

re: #392 NY Nana

If any of your parents went through what Ploomie's did, and you were born in a DP camp, like Ploomie, after the war, you would feel the same.

Sorry NYNana, but this is tantamount to saying that all people who went through that are supporters of Barch Goldsteins actions. This is garbage and an insult to I'm sure the vast majority of such people.

421 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:27:01pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

This is a nightmare. Someone please wake me.

Have them wake me after you, please.

422 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:27:14pm

re: #411 swamprat

You are being a bit cold.

*I'm* being cold? We've got people on this thread defending Baruch Frickking Goldstein, and I'm being cold?!

423 Dragonwolf  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:27:25pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

This is a nightmare. Someone please wake me.

Morning has broken,
Pick up the pieces,
Put them together
To make a new day.

What I sing to wake my kids, though you can't really call the horrendous warble I affect 'singing'

424 Roses  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:27:37pm

re: #79 Sharmuta

That's okay- we don't teach history or civics either.

I have to wonder what the schools are like where you guys live. My kids have gotten a great education, better than any I've seen in my lifetime - granted they were AP and IBO students - Maybe we're just lucky, but from what I have seen here, the teachers and the students all work harder than we ever did.

Now if the State (and the Feds) would just get out of the way and let the teachers teach - instead of getting in the way, the sky would be the limit.

425 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:28:04pm

re: #414 ploome hineni

what a crock of shit

going from there is another side to the Goldstein saga

you, motherfucker, suggesting someone is celebrating the slaughter of children

what ugly think are you trying to instigate?

and all the mornos, I deliberately ignore, are creeping out of the
woodwork

whats the matter walter, your craigslist date didn;t show up?

I read the entire article ploome, any questions you would like to ask me about the article, any point you would like to make?

This man, Goldstein, was a monster, and no better than the radical islamic idiots that he was so bent on killing.

426 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:28:13pm

Everybody too tired or Iron Fisted to be rational, please adjourn. I am also going to bail out of this.

Past bedtime, past paygrade.

Goodnight

427 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:28:21pm

re: #414 ploome hineni

I have a feeling you are not going to be with us for much longer.

Peace out, or whatever the appropriate expression is.

428 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:29:08pm

I can't watch this.

429 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:30:06pm

re: #428 Sharmuta

I can't watch this.

I can always get up on a table and do a strip tease. That really is something you don't want to see. ;)

430 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:30:22pm

re: #411 swamprat

You are being a bit cold.

I'd say that coming up with excuses for a terrorist act involving the murder of children is what's really cold here.

431 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:30:34pm

re: #393 rawmuse

It is another manifestation of Collectivism.
Same type of logic that says that while you may not have ever owned slaves, and even may have had ancestors that helped free the slaves, you benefited from slavery as an institution, and therefore, pay up, sucka.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating on this topic. I'll gladly pay my share of reparations once the queen of England cuts me a nice big fat check to make amends for starving my Irish ancestors off their land.

/Gee golly, whaddya mean it ain't gonna happen?

432 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:30:36pm

re: #413 NY Nana

And look at this video, and see who the arabs especially love to kill...this is a reality every day for Israeli parents when they send their kids to school...or anywhere. And Shalhevet Pas HY"D would be the same age as my nearly 9-year old granddaughter. what did these innocents do to deserve what was done to them, in Israel, the Jewish homeland?

And that excuses Goldstein's wanton slaughter of more than two dozen worshippers? Only in the minds of those who are dangerously close to becoming the horror that they have beheld.

433 yy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:30:49pm

re: #371 Naso Tang

I have been in Chevron (Hebron) over the Sabbath and had a Sabbath meal "upon the hill" overlooking the seminary. For those of you who are not familiar with the importance of Hebron to Judaism, or the Massacre of 1929, I urge you to do your homework. Chevron (not the gas station) is considered to be the second-holiest site for Jews, and the first piece of land ever owned by a Jew (Abraham purchased the land as a burial plot for his wife Sarah).

I spent an amazing evening in Chevron with some amazing people. Sweet, kind, wonderful people--but people who were determined not to give in. I was there not long after the Goldstein ordeal and heard from his firiends (and neighbors) exactly what happened there. The soldiers with whom I spoke (did you know that there are more soldiers than citizens--or at least there were at that time) confirmed the story I had heard (and had doubted).

Two weeks later, a Muslim resident of the city stormed into the house I had spent that evening in and murdered the Rabbi with whom I had spent the evening. You simply cannot understand what it is like--what these people are like, and what the Muslims do there.

You have no idea what it is like walking to synagogue, you and three other Jews, being escorted by a 8 soldiers with machine guns, rocket launchers, radios, and the like. You have no idea what it is like walking as part of this entourage and seeing the looks you get--a look that says: "I want to kill you because you are Jewish," or being told that if you ever get separated from the soldiers that you are dead--period. You have no idea what it is like seeing the soldiers take off to stop the Muslims from throwing rocks at Jewish children--or seeing these children (6-8 years old) bleeding from the rocks thrown by adult Muslim men. You simply can't understand.

I have seen these things and I know what killing in self-defense means. There is nothing crazy about this concept.

As such, you may be a genius, but not on this issue. In other words, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, at least with respect to Chevron and Baruch Goldstein. Anything else, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but on this one issue you really don't seem to understand what goes on there.

434 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:30:51pm

re: #427 Occasional Reader

I have a feeling you are not going to be with us for much longer.

Peace out, or whatever the appropriate expression is.

And I am curious what my dating habits have to do with this subject or ploomes opinions on Dr. Goldstein?

435 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:31:36pm

/um, guess not

436 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:31:37pm

That's it. I am NOT going to allow the defense of mass murder at my website. Ploome, you're out of here. Anyone else who thinks Baruch Goldstein is some kind of fucking hero, speak up now so I can block your account too.

Absolutely disgusting beyond belief.

437 Neo Con since 9-11  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:31:45pm

For the record, after fleeing Poland an hour ahead of the nazis and fleeing the USSR and fighting in the '67 war, my father developed a serious drinking problem but to the best of my knowledge never went on a killing spree.

438 zombie  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:32:23pm

re: #424 Roses

I have to wonder what the schools are like where you guys live. My kids have gotten a great education, better than any I've seen in my lifetime - granted they were AP and IBO students - Maybe we're just lucky, but from what I have seen here, the teachers and the students all work harder than we ever did.

Now if the State (and the Feds) would just get out of the way and let the teachers teach - instead of getting in the way, the sky would be the limit.

I don't know where you live, but things are wildly different in other parts of the country. Public schools in much of California are now somewhere between a complete joke and a complete nightmare. Kids learn NOTHING. And yet graduate with 4.0 averages, in order to "boost their self-esteem."

I just read a recent article about a major Northern California school district in which something like 90% of graduating SENIORS failed an 8th-grade-level basics skills (reading and math) test.

439 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:32:30pm

OK, that's another one. Anyone else?

440 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:33:01pm

re: #434 Walter L. Newton

And I am curious what my dating habits have to do with this subject or ploomes opinions on Dr. Goldstein?

Made about as much sense as any other "argument" she was making.

441 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:33:07pm

re: #422 Occasional Reader

*I'm* being cold? We've got people on this thread defending Baruch Frickking Goldstein, and I'm being cold?!

Point taken. But please consider the comment I refered to, regarding childhood, and no I am not defending, only asking for civility.

442 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:33:20pm

re: #414 ploome hineni

Ploome, take a break and read what you are saying.

443 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:33:55pm

re: #406 Salamantis I'll go further than that. I had two family members (in-laws) who survived the camps - barely. And who indeed suffered even further indignities by the "allies" after the liberation of the camps and the War. They were appalled by his actions and condemned them in words I NEVER expected to hear from them.

444 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:34:01pm

re: #413 NY Nana

And look at this video, and see who the arabs especially love to kill...this is a reality every day for Israeli parents when they send their kids to school...or anywhere. And Shalhevet Pas HY"D would be the same age as my nearly 9-year old granddaughter. what did these innocents do to deserve what was done to them, in Israel, the Jewish homeland?


[Video]

I understand this. My study of World War II and the modern-day Arab attacks on Israel leave me with no doubt as to the vile depths of Jew Hatred. It remains however, my contention that Baruch Goldstein acted recklessly. He moved in against the Arabs and opened fire. A responsible tactic would have been to move between them and any nearby Jewish civilians and prepare to defend the civilians. Preemptive defense has its merits, but it cannot involve preemptively opening fire on a crowd of mainly unarmed men who have not yet demonstrated intent to attack.

445 hazzyday  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:34:02pm

re: #392 NY Nana

It's time to turn the page on all this stuff. Beginning with allowing churches in Mecca. A peaceful approach is better than a violent one.

446 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:34:39pm

re: #416 Gus 802

No, it's not a "cycle of violence" nonsense. To justify an equal response to terrorism is the same as an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. It has nothing to do with one individual but is related to an ideology or a critical reaction to those that justify criminal and/or terroristic behavior.

OK, but that's not what I am reading. To be fair, and I disagree STRONGLY with what is being said, the hypothesis is it was not an eye for an eye attack, but somehow a defensive act stopping an imminent attack.

What is more important though, is that while Muslim terrorists are lauded in their societies, the vast majority of Israelis denounce acts of Jewish terrorism. Every people has those that do bad things in it. How a people deals with the bad within determines whether or not they are a good or an evil society.

447 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:35:00pm

re: #440 Occasional Reader

Made about as much sense as any other "argument" she was making.

You and I are on the same page (I think), on this subject, the subject being ploome. We have gone over this before. I knew this would happen some day.

448 Boxy_brown  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:35:01pm

Man... I come here for a break from the insanity.

449 funky chicken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:35:08pm

Sharmuta, I think you will like this David Frum column about fiscal conservatism vs social conservatism:

[Link: network.nationalpost.com...]

450 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:35:10pm

re: #433 yy

I have been in Chevron (Hebron) over the Sabbath and had a Sabbath meal "upon the hill" overlooking the seminary. For those of you who are not familiar with the importance of Hebron to Judaism, or the Massacre of 1929, I urge you to do your homework. Chevron (not the gas station) is considered to be the second-holiest site for Jews, and the first piece of land ever owned by a Jew (Abraham purchased the land as a burial plot for his wife Sarah).

I spent an amazing evening in Chevron with some amazing people. Sweet, kind, wonderful people--but people who were determined not to give in. I was there not long after the Goldstein ordeal and heard from his firiends (and neighbors) exactly what happened there. The soldiers with whom I spoke (did you know that there are more soldiers than citizens--or at least there were at that time) confirmed the story I had heard (and had doubted).

Two weeks later, a Muslim resident of the city stormed into the house I had spent that evening in and murdered the Rabbi with whom I had spent the evening. You simply cannot understand what it is like--what these people are like, and what the Muslims do there.

You have no idea what it is like walking to synagogue, you and three other Jews, being escorted by a 8 soldiers with machine guns, rocket launchers, radios, and the like. You have no idea what it is like walking as part of this entourage and seeing the looks you get--a look that says: "I want to kill you because you are Jewish," or being told that if you ever get separated from the soldiers that you are dead--period. You have no idea what it is like seeing the soldiers take off to stop the Muslims from throwing rocks at Jewish children--or seeing these children (6-8 years old) bleeding from the rocks thrown by adult Muslim men. You simply can't understand.

I have seen these things and I know what killing in self-defense means. There is nothing crazy about this concept.

As such, you may be a genius, but not on this issue. In other words, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, at least with respect to Chevron and Baruch Goldstein. Anything else, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but on this one issue you really don't seem to understand what goes on there.

I would respectfully submit that the ordeal in the Goldstein massacre was undergone by his gunned down victims, and is still being undergone by their surviving family and friends.

451 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:35:23pm

re: #442 jorline

Too late.

Not her first meltdown.

452 NY Nana  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:35:42pm

re: #400 ploome hineni

I remember when you posted about it, Ploomie, and it has never left my thoughts. I have lived my life watching Jews being spit on, even after the Shoah...and it still goes on.

I wish I had saved your post....you do not need anyone to defend you, but on this subject? I am not going to sit here and see you being spit on.

I am getting off this thread..when I am too angry to post, it is better to take a break for awhile.

BBL on a new thread.

453 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:35:43pm

re: #439 Charles

OK, that's another one. Anyone else?

Two meltdowns and they weren't even on the subject of the thread. This is not good.

454 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:36:07pm

re: #447 Walter L. Newton

I though she had a handle on it.

455 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:36:40pm

re: #419 ggt

That's just too d@mn simple to remember. I put in my favorites for future reference.

:)

Don't think for a minute I espouse it, not that you do.
I consider it to be a form of insanity.

456 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:36:53pm

re: #442 jorline

Ploome, take a break and read what you are saying.

Too late. He's gone. I expected a meltdown on this thread, but not like this. I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

457 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:37:15pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Too late. He's gone. I expected a meltdown on this thread, but not like this. I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

She. Ploome is a female.

458 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:38:01pm

re: #446 jayzee

OK, but that's not what I am reading. To be fair, and I disagree STRONGLY with what is being said, the hypothesis is it was not an eye for an eye attack, but somehow a defensive act stopping an imminent attack.

What is more important though, is that while Muslim terrorists are lauded in their societies, the vast majority of Israelis denounce acts of Jewish terrorism. Every people has those that do bad things in it. How a people deals with the bad within determines whether or not they are a good or an evil society.

A defensive act employs military reasoning and military or criminal targets. What Goldstein did was not a defensive attack but a criminal act on innocent people in a Mosque. If you have evidence indicating that the children that were also victims of this mass murder were terrorists then please enlighten me.

This act is unjustifiable. End of story.

459 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:38:30pm

re: #448 Boxy_brown

Man... I come here for a break from the insanity.

Likewise....

/hands Boxy some napkins to wipe the little flecks of excrement off after it hit the blades of the rotary cooling device and sprayed everywhere.

460 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:38:33pm

re: #455 rawmuse

Don't think for a minute I espouse it, not that you do.
I consider it to be a form of insanity.

It is. Something about "know your enemy". I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the insanity and have to have references.

461 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:38:40pm

re: #446 jayzee

the hypothesis is it was not an eye for an eye attack, but somehow a defensive act stopping an imminent attack.

Were weapons found among the victims? Did the IDF ever confirm any shred of this nonsense that Goldstein thwarted an imminent attack? How did one man manage to shoot 179 "terrorists" who were on the verge of launching an attack? Please. It's a "hypothesis" the way Alex Jones has a "hypothesis".

462 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:39:07pm

Hi Walter!

Totally off topic, but I have to tell you I made some cool amber earrings this weekend.

My mother's birthday.

463 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:39:11pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Too late. He's gone. I expected a meltdown on this thread, but not like this. I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

Heinlein did talk in his Future History stories about the Crazy Times preceding the collapse of America into a Theocracy. Looks like he was not just writing fiction.

464 funky chicken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:39:17pm

well...seems like a good time to say g'night

:-)

465 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:40:51pm

re: #458 Gus 802

A defensive act employs military reasoning and military or criminal targets. What Goldstein did was not a defensive attack but a criminal act on innocent people in a Mosque. If you have evidence indicating that the children that were also victims of this mass murder were terrorists then please enlighten me.

This act is unjustifiable. End of story.

I am not justifying it at all. It was terrorism. What I am saying, is that Israel views terrorism as evil, while its enemies do not, and more to the point, this is one of the things that bothers me about CH's arguments, and positions (including his anti zionism).

466 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:41:09pm

We seem to be having a viral infection of Rage Boy mentality on this thread.

467 Dragonwolf  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:41:19pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

I just pray it's not the first symptom of the erosion of hope. That would destroy us more surely than O.

468 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:41:42pm

re: #461 Occasional Reader
They killed him with what was available...Not guns. That speaks volumes.

Why am I still here? Oh, yeah, It is too late to stop Ploome from destroying her account.

469 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:42:15pm

re: #409 swamprat

It's a bit complicated.

Deuteronomy 24 reads: The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 5, however, describes God "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." This phrase is also found in both Exodus and Numbers.

You can play the game all the way through, finding verses that run both ways. Jeremiah and Ezekiel both have passages on similar topics.

I've heard interpretations that suggest that the sins of the father are visited on the children not because God sees them as guilty, but because what the parents do invariably affects their children. I'm not sure it holds up perfectly, though.

470 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:42:49pm

re: #415 Charles

I agree. I do not fucking believe what I'm reading here.

What you are reading, if I may, are not reasoned arguments but rather venting of raw, bleeding, unthinking, reactive emotions. The blind desire to utterly destroy one's heartless, bloodthirsty enemy is generally suppressed and condemned but the sentiment is more common than we may want to admit.

471 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:43:34pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Too late. He's gone. I expected a meltdown on this thread, but not like this. I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

Wow...what exactly happened to ploome to make (her?) freak out like that.?

472 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:43:39pm

re: #465 jayzee

I am not justifying it at all. It was terrorism. What I am saying, is that Israel views terrorism as evil, while its enemies do not, and more to the point, this is one of the things that bothers me about CH's arguments, and positions (including his anti zionism).

OK. I can understand that. I can also understand how the event would have been used by the other side in a maligned fashion. Goldstein's act was not "Israel" and not "by the Jews" but Hamas and others will use it as such. More or less.

473 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:43:49pm

re: #462 EmmmieG

Hi Walter!

Totally off topic, but I have to tell you I made some cool amber earrings this weekend.

My mother's birthday.

Nice. My ex-wife loves amber. For a matter of fact, when we went to Poland, she almost broke the bank purchasing North Sea amber in Warsaw (although it was much cheaper than buying it here).

Interesting, this week, for the fist time in months, I made some jewelry, a new totem to hang from the back of my "Indiana Jones" style hat. That hat has seen a lot of outdoors.

Some nice turquoise, dear hide and bone dangles. Southwest styled.

474 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:43:57pm

re: #457 Walter L. Newton

She. Ploome is a female.

Sorry, I forgot. Again. PIMF

475 jaunte  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:44:08pm

re: #466 Salamantis

We seem to be having a viral infection of Rage Boy mentality on this thread.

Using the fact of victimhood to excuse an extreme response is a temptation.
It doesn't come from a good place, and it doesn't lead to anything good.

476 Occasional Reader  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:44:11pm

It's late. Good night.

477 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:44:44pm

re: #473 Walter L. Newton

Nice. My ex-wife loves amber. For a matter of fact, when we went to Poland, she almost broke the bank purchasing North Sea amber in Warsaw (although it was much cheaper than buying it here).

Interesting, this week, for the fist time in months, I made some jewelry, a new totem to hang from the back of my "Indiana Jones" style hat. That hat has seen a lot of outdoors.

Some nice turquoise, dear hide and bone dangles. Southwest styled.

Sounds like a cool hat. Everyone needs a cool hat.

478 Racer X  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:45:09pm

Yikes.

Back from watching "The Universe" on The History Channel.

Looks like things have been hopping.

479 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:45:12pm

re: #468 swamprat

They killed him with what was available...Not guns. That speaks volumes.

Why am I still here? Oh, yeah, It is too late to stop Ploome from destroying her account.

Yeah...it says that they didn't have guns in the first place, and thus were not about to attack, and it thus blows the Pre-Emptive Defence By Machine Gun theoryexcuse so far outta the water that the ocean's no longer visible.

480 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:46:26pm

Damn, I had my own special brand of crazy to bring tonight, but how can I follow on that?

481 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:46:31pm

re: #471 BryanS

Wow...what exactly happened to ploome to make (her?) freak out like that.?

I think sometimes the "Never Again" position with regards to how Jews (and by extension Israel) were treated throughout history can be emotionally twisted into a 'ends justify the means' kind of hysteria. I think she has been given a wide berth around the ban stick a few times in the past where others would have been rolled, but tonight was egregious.

482 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:46:33pm

re: #424 Roses

I have to wonder what the schools are like where you guys live. My kids have gotten a great education, better than any I've seen in my lifetime - granted they were AP and IBO students - Maybe we're just lucky, but from what I have seen here, the teachers and the students all work harder than we ever did.

Now if the State (and the Feds) would just get out of the way and let the teachers teach - instead of getting in the way, the sky would be the limit.

Bless you! A teacher on this forum can start to feel--unloved.

;)

483 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:46:52pm

re: #469 SanFranciscoZionist

I was just pointing to related verses to the topic. I haven't researched this. Hell, I can't even find the year that stoning stopped, though some say it stopped when the temple "fell".

484 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:47:12pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Too late. He's gone. I expected a meltdown on this thread, but not like this. I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

Not your fault...I watched it unravel since #258. No one should condone murder period. This has been the hardest meltdown for me to witness...very sad indeed.

485 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:47:33pm

To bed, I have an early dental appointment in the morning and I had promised myself to hit the sack more than an hour ago.

Peace.

486 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:48:13pm

re: #472 Gus 802

OK. I can understand that. I can also understand how the event would have been used by the other side in a maligned fashion. Goldstein's act was not "Israel" and not "by the Jews" but Hamas and others will use it as such. More or less.

And Christopher Hitchens.....And that's the problem.

487 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:48:19pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Too late. He's gone. I expected a meltdown on this thread, but not like this. I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

I'm sickened by her meltdown (and shocked by Ny Nana's support) - but I won't pretend I'm not glad Ploome is gone. I say good riddance to her extremism, her rants about the genetic inferiority of muslims, and her routine and petty abusiveness towards anyone who disagreed with her.

488 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:48:54pm

re: #481 ArchangelMichael

Well put. It really makes my heart sink to see that, though. I know I'm not alone there.

Deep breaths.

489 hazzyday  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:49:06pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

This is a nightmare. Someone please wake me.


I think there is a hidden history here that most people are not exposed to. The events and the motivations people ascribe to their enemies has not been part of my history. It is a reminder that violence is not that far distant in memory. And more important is the need to move forward. Things like Durban II do little to advance the progress of humanity.

I do believe all the impetus for future peace lies in Israel holding firm and Islam accepting an advanced version of human rights. (Durban III). Egyptian borders need to be opened at Gaza. Violence is just around the corner if people don't acknowledge human rights.

490 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:49:08pm

re: #469 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a bit complicated.

Deuteronomy 24 reads: The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 5, however, describes God "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." This phrase is also found in both Exodus and Numbers.

You can play the game all the way through, finding verses that run both ways. Jeremiah and Ezekiel both have passages on similar topics.

I've heard interpretations that suggest that the sins of the father are visited on the children not because God sees them as guilty, but because what the parents do invariably affects their children. I'm not sure it holds up perfectly, though.

Thank you for that reference.

491 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:49:26pm

re: #481 ArchangelMichael

Once "the ends justify the means" you are already in Hell, for that is the original Faustian bargain, IMHO.

492 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:49:41pm

re: #471 BryanS

Would you believe post traumatic stress?

Non jews were a danger; therefore all non-jews are dangerous.

A=A=A=A
everything is "A"

key is stuck down

493 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:50:17pm

Wow, picked a good night to watch old Penn and Teller episodes.

494 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:50:44pm

re: #469 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a bit complicated.

Deuteronomy 24 reads: The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 5, however, describes God "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." This phrase is also found in both Exodus and Numbers.

There's also the next point about bringing blessings to a thousand generations of those who keep His commandments.

495 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:51:31pm

re: #471 BryanS

Wow...what exactly happened to ploome to make (her?) freak out like that.?

Baruch Goldstein was brought up by Christopher Hitchens in an earlier article of his. The article came up in the context Hitchens' anti-semitism. I wrote a post that associated Goldstein and Mohammad Atta as people Hitchens believes are the exemplars of religious devotion. Things went downhill from there.

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:51:38pm

re: #437 Neo Con since 9-11

For the record, after fleeing Poland an hour ahead of the nazis and fleeing the USSR and fighting in the '67 war, my father developed a serious drinking problem but to the best of my knowledge never went on a killing spree.

God, what that whole generation went through.

/a toast to them, any of you who have something worth toasting with.

497 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:52:08pm

re: #486 jayzee

And Christopher Hitchens.....And that's the problem.

That would require bringing Hitchens up to the level of Hamas. I don't see them as being equal antagonists and not the least of which Hitchens is not a de facto terrorist.

498 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:52:41pm

re: #488 Catttt

Well put. It really makes my heart sink to see that, though. I know I'm not alone there.

Deep breaths.

I was really hoping she would realize exactly what it was she was advocating and take it down a notch or 3...

499 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:53:42pm

re: #448 Boxy_brown

Man... I come here for a break from the insanity.

This isn't the evening for a break from insanity, really.

500 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:53:48pm

re: #495 Dark_Falcon

Baruch Goldstein was brought up by Christopher Hitchens in an earlier article of his. The article came up in the context Hitchens' anti-semitism. I wrote a post that associated Goldstein and Mohammad Atta as people Hitchens believes are the exemplars of religious devotion. Things went downhill from there.

The downward spiral kind of proves Hitchen's point, doesn't it.

501 hazzyday  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:53:50pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

Too late. He's gone. I expected a meltdown on this thread, but not like this. I am very sorry this happened. One of our own went nuts. The madness seems to be spreading. I am saddened and sickened.

Anger...

502 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:53:50pm

re: #480 victor_yugo

Damn, I had my own special brand of crazy to bring tonight, but how can I follow on that?

No topping that hat-trick.

503 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:55:13pm

re: #459 Fenway_Nation

Likewise....

/hands Boxy some napkins to wipe the little flecks of excrement off after it hit the blades of the rotary cooling device and sprayed everywhere.

You got Ti-Dee-Wipes? We need some Ti-Dee-Wipes.

504 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:55:26pm

re: #500 BryanS

The downward spiral kind of proves Hitchen's point, doesn't it.

Which is what?

505 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:55:34pm

re: #498 ArchangelMichael

I was really hoping she would realize exactly what it was she was advocating and take it down a notch or 3...

Me too. By the way, you might like this, if you haven't seen it before.

Archangel Michael

506 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:56:20pm

re: #502 jorline

No topping that hat-trick.

Well, this probably wouldn't get me banned, but it could be inflammatory. Not worth it, tonight.

507 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:57:11pm

re: #505 Catttt

I met his commanding officer last August.

508 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:57:45pm

Not to go all Christian on you all, but here is an uplift.

509 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:57:59pm

re: #505 Catttt

Hey you mentioned Russians before. I remember once a co-work/friend of mine from Poland who also spoke Russian met a Russian friend of his at work. So, they're talking but they were screaming at each other and going back and forth. When they finished I asked my friend, "what happened?" Alluding to my thought that they were fighting. He said, "what do you mean what happened? We're good friends. We were just talking."

510 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:58:25pm

Well, good night, and I hope we can all find a bit of inner peace tonight.

511 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:58:46pm

re: #505 Catttt

Me too. By the way, you might like this, if you haven't seen it before.

Archangel Michael

Very good. Exactly the sort of praise a true American Hero deserves.

512 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:58:56pm

re: #497 Gus 802

That would require bringing Hitchens up to the level of Hamas. I don't see them as being equal antagonists and not the least of which Hitchens is not a de facto terrorist.

I don't see where I called him a terrorist, but it does concern me that he spews the same libel (Goldstein equals Jews equals Israel) as Hamas does quite frankly, and THAT is why so many take issue with him. You choose not to, that's fine.

513 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:59:15pm

re: #491 rawmuse

Once "the ends justify the means" you are already in Hell, for that is the original Faustian bargain, IMHO.

And the worst thing about such hysteria is that it feeds the Blame-Israel-First and antisemitism fires of the Left.

"See those right wing zionist honcos at LGF and teh jooooos advocate slaughtering muslims just because..." /moonbat

514 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 9:59:38pm

re: #437 Neo Con since 9-11

For the record, after fleeing Poland an hour ahead of the nazis and fleeing the USSR and fighting in the '67 war, my father developed a serious drinking problem but to the best of my knowledge never went on a killing spree.


Mom never had a drinking problem. She could drink most people under the table.

AA 40 yr chip

515 Wishing  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:00:58pm

re: #508 Catttt

Lovely, thank you, catttt

516 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:01:01pm

re: #504 jayzee

Which is what?

God is not Great:How religion poisons everything.

517 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:02:17pm

re: #505 Catttt

Me too. By the way, you might like this, if you haven't seen it before.

Archangel Michael

That's really cool. Although I'm afraid, despite what my girlfriend thinks of me (the Archangel Michael nic for various online things was her idea), I don't know that I quite live up to the name.

518 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:02:26pm

re: #493 Thanos

Wow, picked a good night to watch old Penn and Teller episodes.

Yet you picked the wrong week to stop sniffing airplane glue. Oh wait....that's me. Gave it up for Lent....

/that's my story and I'm sticking to it

re: #503 SanFranciscoZionist

You got Ti-Dee-Wipes? We need some Ti-Dee-Wipes.

No, unfortunately. And this is exactly the kind of shit-hitting-fan situation TiDee-Wipes were designed for.

519 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:02:29pm

re: #516 BryanS

God is not Great:How religion poisons everything.

Which once again conflates a perfect God with His imperfect followers. Same-o, same-o.

520 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:02:44pm

re: #481 ArchangelMichael

I think sometimes the "Never Again" position with regards to how Jews (and by extension Israel) were treated throughout history can be emotionally twisted into a 'ends justify the means' kind of hysteria.


"Kill whitey!"

521 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:03:37pm

re: #512 jayzee

I don't see where I called him a terrorist, but it does concern me that he spews the same libel (Goldstein equals Jews equals Israel) as Hamas does quite frankly, and THAT is why so many take issue with him. You choose not to, that's fine.

I can't control what Hitchen's says. Additionally, I don't hold everything that Hitchen's says in high regard as I do with most people. I pick and choose small elements of ideologies in an eclectic manner. If you want to judge me as an equal to or idol of Hitchens and think that I agree with him on all matters than you are wrong. I view the issue of Goldstein from my own personal perspective and not from a Hitchensesque orthodoxy.

And with that I am done discussing that matter.

522 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:04:48pm

re: #520 solomonpanting

"Kill whitey!"

East L.A. translation: "¡Mata a los gringos!"

523 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:05:11pm

Out of the 29 unarmed Goldstein victims, three were 11 years old, two were 13, and one was 14.

I cannot for the life of me wrap my mind around the mindset that attempts to justify such wanton carnage.

524 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:05:47pm

Creationist melts down at Dawkins lecture in OK:

Melting down on camera in front of the 'great satan' himself - that must be some kind of a special martyr cookie.

525 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:06:35pm

re: #520 solomonpanting

"Kill whitey!"

Kill the Poor!

526 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:06:40pm

re: #524 Jimmah

Melting down on camera in front of the 'great satan' himself - that must be some kind of a special martyr cookie.

What, no virgins? Crap.

527 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:07:34pm

re: #516 BryanS

God is not Great:How religion poisons everything.

No, scumbags who take religion to murderous extremes can ruin every things. Many, many, people are devout without being vicious.

528 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:08:14pm

re: #492 swamprat

Would you believe post traumatic stress?

Non jews were a danger; therefore all non-jews are dangerous.

A=A=A=A
everything is "A"

key is stuck down

A lot of folks walk around with it--and the fact that a lot of non-Jews still are dangerous as hell doesn't help. When NY Nana mentioned Shalhevet Pas--God, I remember those photos. When something like that happens, they all run together, all the generations who tried to destroy us.

If a whole people can have PTSD, the Jews probably do. We haven't had a hell of a lot of time for therapy this past few hundred years.

529 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:09:20pm

re: #527 Dark_Falcon

No, scumbags who take religion to murderous extremes can ruin every things. Many, many, people are devout without being vicious.

Humans are Not Great: How Humans Poison Everything!

//

530 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:09:42pm

I do not think that ploome will be allowed back here, and for good and solid reason. I think that this execrable display of hers was far beyond all list redemption.

531 itellu3times  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:09:57pm

re: #438 zombie

I don't know where you live, but things are wildly different in other parts of the country. Public schools in much of California are now somewhere between a complete joke and a complete nightmare. Kids learn NOTHING. And yet graduate with 4.0 averages, in order to "boost their self-esteem."

I just read a recent article about a major Northern California school district in which something like 90% of graduating SENIORS failed an 8th-grade-level basics skills (reading and math) test.

There are still some districts where the public schools are good to excellent, apparently. But my impression of the average is that it is very low, as you say.

532 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:10:25pm

re: #530 Salamantis

I do not think that ploome will be allowed back here, and for good and solid reason. I think that this execrable display of hers was far beyond all list redemption.

I think she was banned before and allowed back iirc?

533 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:10:45pm

re: #525 Gus 802
Don't have a video but Andrew Cumo (and others)
"Kill the Rich".

534 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:11:18pm

re: #533 realwest
PIMF Cuomo.

535 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:11:43pm

re: #529 Gus 802

Humans are Not Great: How Humans Poison Everything!

//

Earth is Not Great: How Terra spoils the Universe! /

536 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:11:53pm

re: #533 realwest

Don't have a video but Andrew Cumo (and others)
"Kill the Rich".

That is the mantra of the fucking current administration and most of Congress.

537 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:12:02pm

re: #532 Thanos

I think she was banned before and allowed back iirc?

Yep, but never again, in my opinion. Not after something like this.

538 Macker  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:12:40pm

re: #505 Catttt

Me too. By the way, you might like this, if you haven't seen it before.

Archangel Michael

Here's another Archangel Michael.

539 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:12:59pm

If you ever want a mind bender, consider that Charles Manson still gets marriage proposals, to this very day.

The crazy walk among us, yes.

540 Roses  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:13:05pm

re: #438 zombie

I don't know where you live, but things are wildly different in other parts of the country. Public schools in much of California are now somewhere between a complete joke and a complete nightmare. Kids learn NOTHING. And yet graduate with 4.0 averages, in order to "boost their self-esteem."

I just read a recent article about a major Northern California school district in which something like 90% of graduating SENIORS failed an 8th-grade-level basics skills (reading and math) test.

I am in California, the real Northern California. It's a small district, near a college town. No one graduated with a 4.0 here that didn't earn it. Quite the contrary actually. The college-track, AP and IBO students have to pass tests that have nothing to do with anyone who cares about their 'self-esteem.' They go on to the best Colleges they can afford, some with scholarships and some without.

The number on thing to teach your kids - you get out of it what you put into it. You can look at school as a holding tank or you can appreciate this gift that we as a society have chosen to give to you, to all kids. As parents, we could not afford to hire a Math tutor, an English tutor, a Science tutor, etc - but at the school, you will have teachers who specialize in those areas. It is a gift. Make something out of it.

The kids who fail don't think that way. They look at school as an imposition, a holding tank, a jail. It is an attitude.

No teacher looks for that when they start out. They may become numb to it, but they warm up when a kid shows some interest, some spark, some humanity.

The two worst things schools, and teachers have to deal with - bad parents, and politicians who say the words "We must hold the schools ACCOUNTABLE." Those are code words for, "I want to get elected so I will say anything and meddle with anything even when I know nothing about it."

541 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:13:09pm

re: #534 realwest

PIMF Cuomo.

He's trying to take over his father's place -- to the extreme. Populism relies on the rich. In fact, without "the rich" populism would be severely hampered.

542 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:13:18pm

re: #527 Dark_Falcon

No, scumbags who take religion to murderous extremes can ruin every things. Many, many, people are devout without being vicious.

I like Hitchen's description of it--I think he attributed it to someone else when I heard him say it. But basically he said this:
Without religion, good people would do good things and evil people would do evil things. Only with religion can we inspire otherwise good people to do evil things.

543 swamprat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:13:34pm

:-/

tomorrow is another day

544 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:13:56pm

re: #530 Salamantis

I do not think that ploome will be allowed back here, and for good and solid reason. I think that this execrable display of hers was far beyond all list redemption.

Yeah, that was pretty much permanently beyond the pale.

It also really harshed this thread all to hell. I think I hear an echo.

545 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:14:01pm

re: #530 Salamantis
Hi Sal - I agree with you but what did you mean by "far beyond all list redemption."
[my emphasis]?

546 Ateam  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:14:20pm

Goldstein was a stain on history. Crazy mutant psychopath. & idiot too.
What came up good from killing Innocent people at Hevron?

Felt shame as it happened, even though had no connections with this animal.

547 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:14:47pm

re: #542 BryanS

I like Hitchen's description of it--I think he attributed it to someone else when I heard him say it. But basically he said this:
Without religion, good people would do good things and evil people would do evil things. Only with religion can we inspire otherwise good people to do evil things.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

548 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:14:52pm

re: #535 Catttt

Earth is Not Great: How Terra spoils the Universe! /

Especially dust. You ever wash your car and then experience about 30 seconds of rain followed by a coating of terra that sticks to the wet surface?

549 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:15:32pm

re: #545 realwest

Hi Sal - I agree with you but what did you mean by "far beyond all list redemption."
[my emphasis]?

Point taken. I should not have qualified it.

550 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:16:00pm

re: #523 Salamantis

Out of the 29 unarmed Goldstein victims, three were 11 years old, two were 13, and one was 14.

I cannot for the life of me wrap my mind around the mindset that attempts to justify such wanton carnage.

Its a mindset that has gotten so pissed off by the enemy terrorists that she's gone on tilt. Which is one the terrorist's objectives: to provoke us into committing or condoning atrocities, that we might be demoralized and they may unite the Arabs behind them. We owe it to ourselves not fall into that trap.

551 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:16:07pm

re: #533 realwest

Don't have a video but Andrew Cumo (and others)
"Kill the Rich".

Kill the rich!
Burn their houses!
Be unpleasant to their spouses!

552 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:16:25pm

re: #548 Gus 802

Especially dust. You ever wash your car and then experience about 30 seconds of rain followed by a coating of terra that sticks to the wet surface?

Around here it is usually dive-bombing birds, even with all the rain. So much rain there is hardly ever any airborne terra.

553 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:16:37pm

re: #543 swamprat

:-/

tomorrow is another day

554 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:16:46pm

re: #548 Gus 802

Especially dust. You ever wash your car and then experience about 30 seconds of rain followed by a coating of terra that sticks to the wet surface?

No, but then, I never wash my truck. :D

555 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:17:12pm

I don't suppose it's too much to ask to quit regurgitating the ugliness?

/it was bad enough the first time, there's no need for further post-game analysis

556 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:18:19pm

re: #552 FurryOldGuyJeans

Around here it is usually dive-bombing birds, even with all the rain. So much rain there is hardly ever any airborne terra.

I forgot the caveat: back when it used to shower. Never get much rain in Colorado.

557 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:18:37pm

re: #547 Salamantis

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

Leave it to the NYT. It wouldn't cross their addled minds to consider the possibility that religion just provides an excuse for the already-present evil to show itself publicly.

558 jayzee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:18:46pm

Goodnight kinder.

559 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:19:12pm

re: #546 Ateam

Goldstein was a stain on history. Crazy mutant psychopath. & idiot too.
What came up good from killing Innocent people at Hevron?

Felt shame as it happened, even though had no connections with this animal.

I was in college. Kind of keeled over. Didn't help that I was surrounded by moonbat friends who, although they tried hard to help, thought this sort of thing happened every day, and didn't understand the historical significance of Hebron at all.

560 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:19:15pm

re: #537 Salamantis

Yep, but never again, in my opinion. Not after something like this.

Concur. Justifying mass murder is beyond the pale.

561 BignJames  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:19:16pm

re: #554 Catttt

No, but then, I never wash my truck. :D

Me either.....someone once wrote in the dust on mine..."Test Dirt....Do Not Wash"

562 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:19:24pm

re: #556 Gus 802

I forgot the caveat: back when it used to shower. Never get much rain in Colorado.

Well, excuuuuse me then for not seeing what you should have written but didn't! ;)

563 BignJames  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:20:26pm

re: #555 Killian Bundy

I don't suppose it's too much to ask to quit regurgitating the ugliness?

/it was bad enough the first time, there's no need for further post-game analysis


Gets my vote.

564 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:20:53pm

re: #554 Catttt

No, but then, I never wash my truck. :D

Dust and road dirt seems to be the only thing holding my car together any more. ;)

565 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:21:10pm

re: #562 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well, excuuuuse me then for not seeing what you should have written but didn't! ;)

Yeah. Stupid is as stupid does. :) Kind of like how I always seem to forget the "s" in my plurals.

//Damn keyboard.

566 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:21:43pm

re: #547 Salamantis
Well I'd have to disagree with Mr. Weinberg on that
"But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
More frequently it requires an absence - sometimes temporary - of moral conscious - if, for example, bin Laden were to have walked the streets of Manhattan on 9/12/01, I suspect a gang of people would have murdered him; religious people, atheists and agnostics alike. Whether or not religion, per se, or the absence of religion makes you more or less likely to do such things is, I think, still a valid question.

567 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:21:55pm

re: #449 funky chicken

Thanks- I am a bit beside myself at the moment. I will read it later.

568 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:22:30pm

They are slowly driving more and more of us crazy.

569 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:22:51pm

re: #544 Catttt

Yeah, that was pretty much permanently beyond the pale.

It also really harshed this thread all to hell. I think I hear an echo.

It would take a Hundred Weight of Collie Weed to unharsh this thread I think...

570 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:24:23pm

re: #568 Spare O'Lake

They are slowly driving more and more of us crazy.

Who are "they" you are referring to?

/ and for some people it would be a real short drive, my trip would be over real quick.

571 realwest  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:24:38pm

re: #555 Killian Bundy
Quite right - good night you all and I hope you all have a good evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

572 stevieray  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:24:56pm

Yikes!

(ya go away for a few hours of research, and... well... yikes!)

573 pat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:25:34pm

Hitchens is a universal hate case. This guy may be right on a few issues, but it is time to cut him out. He is a hater and and a developing loon. Mark my words.
Hitchens has reached the point of being right once a day.

574 Spar Kling  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:25:43pm

re: #263 FurryOldGuyJeans

If these idiots are so adamant about pushing Creationism into the school curriculum they need to push the PI = 3 Biblical "mandate" as well.

Um, I'm against including creationism in any science curriculum, but you should be careful about mocking the PI=3 thing. Asimov also used it, but if you look into the question further, there is more in the Bible than meets the eye.

See [Link: www.arcytech.org...] for the details (scroll to the bottom if you want to fast forward to the relevant info).

-sk

575 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:25:51pm

re: #566 realwest

Well I'd have to disagree with Mr. Weinberg on that
"But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
More frequently it requires an absence - sometimes temporary - of moral conscious - if, for example, bin Laden were to have walked the streets of Manhattan on 9/12/01, I suspect a gang of people would have murdered him; religious people, atheists and agnostics alike. Whether or not religion, per se, or the absence of religion makes you more or less likely to do such things is, I think, still a valid question.

I don't know the answer to that. 'Religion' is a big umbrella.

576 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:25:52pm

re: #572 stevieray

Yikes!

(ya go away for a few hours of research, and... well... yikes!)

Nothing to see here. Just a carpet bombing. Arc light was here.

577 Throbert McGee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:26:34pm

re: #206 Catttt

Geez. The Russian couple upstairs are having a huge (verbal) fight. I think the man just ran down. I'm glad I'm single. God, they're loud when they fight.

If they keep it up, put your computer speakers against the ceiling (or something) and blast this at them:

It's actually a bunch of Israeli Arab kids singing in Arabic on Israeli TV -- hence the menorah logo in the upper left. But by an amazing cosmic coincidence, the Arabic chorus biladi, biladi biladi, which gets repeated over and over, sounds almost exactly like the Russian words for "dirty fucking whores, fucking whores, fucking who-o-o-res" -- as spelled out in the Cyrillic subtitles purportedly "translating" the song.

In any case, Russians absolutely adore the expression "dirty fucking whore" and use it constantly, so this will probably sound like sweet music to your neighbors, and they'll stop fighting...

578 jorline  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:27:11pm

Ambian is finally kicking in...for good reason, it's time to put this thread to bed.

Good night all.

579 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:28:42pm

Britain begins final pullout from Iraq Tuesday

[Link: www.google.com...]

I've got to get some sleeps, I'll leave you with this

580 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:29:28pm

re: #577 Throbert McGee

If they keep it up, put your computer speakers against the ceiling (or something) and blast this at them:

It's actually a bunch of Israeli Arab kids singing in Arabic on Israeli TV -- hence the menorah logo in the upper left. But by an amazing cosmic coincidence, the Arabic chorus biladi, biladi biladi, which gets repeated over and over, sounds almost exactly like the Russian words for "dirty fucking whores, fucking whores, fucking who-o-o-res" -- as spelled out in the Cyrillic subtitles purportedly "translating" the song.

In any case, Russians absolutely adore the expression "dirty fucking whore" and use it constantly, so this will probably sound like sweet music to your neighbors, and they'll stop fighting...

There is some strange cosmic connection between Arabic and Russian. I don't know exactly why, or how. Apparently "Nasrallah", as in the name of the Hezbollah leader, means in Russian "she took a dump". During the last Lebanon war, this was a source of neverending glee to many Russian-speaking Israelis.

581 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:29:35pm

re: #574 Spar Kling

I certainly wasn't mocking ANYTHING. I am just mentioning what was being put forth as a valid proposal at one time in this country, and the justification for it. You strawmanned the situation by dragging up ancient history. Nice try, but no cigar.

582 stevieray  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:30:10pm

re: #577 Throbert McGee


In any case, Russians absolutely adore the expression "dirty fucking whore" and use it constantly, so this will probably sound like sweet music to your neighbors, and they'll stop fighting...

I've heard that too!

(heh, you shit disturber you!)

583 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:30:40pm

re: #574 Spar Kling

I regret that I have but one downding to give after reading that silliness you just linked to:

[Note 3] -- 1 Kings 7:23 reads:

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a circumference of thirty cubits to measure around it.

Thirty divided by ten gives a value of 3. However, it is interesting to note that the word circumference happens to be spelled with an extra letter. Since in Hebrew all letters are also numbers, if we take the ratio of the value for the word as it is written (111) to the normal spelled word (106) we get the number 1.047169811... If you multiply this number by 3 you get 3.141509434... An amazingly close approximation to !

584 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:30:41pm

re: #570 FurryOldGuyJeans

Who are "they" you are referring to?

/ and for some people it would be a real short drive, my trip would be over real quick.

The fucking Arabs.

585 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:31:10pm

White House calls for Chrysler-Fiat team

The Obama administration says Chrysler LLC needs to partner with Italian automaker Fiat SpA within 30 days if it wants to receive $6 billion in government aid.

The New York Times (NYSE:NYT) reported Monday that in a report Sunday the White House auto industry task force outlined plans for Chrysler and General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM), which have received billions of dollars in government aid.

The task force concluded that Chrysler could not survive as a stand-alone company, the newspaper reported. In addition to partnering with Fiat, the report says Chrysler must reduce its debt and healthcare obligations.

The task force said GM should get 60 days to present a cost-cutting plan. In the meantime, the company will be kept solvent with taxpayer money, the newspaper said.

Well, hey, if that's not de facto nationalization, the government dictating terms to still private corporations, I'm not sure how it can get much closer.

/and, so far, the markets are not amused

586 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:32:24pm

re: #585 Killian Bundy

Uh oh. Here comes the GM-Saab team proposal maybe? Kind of sort of?

587 WindHorse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:32:45pm

re: #585 Killian Bundy

Fiat? Is this a bad joke?

588 WindHorse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:33:22pm

this must be the nuance we're all so unable to grasp......

589 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:34:29pm

re: #574 Spar Kling

gmsc is gonna hear about this!

590 WindHorse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:34:35pm

(this will certainly breathe new life to the old saying "Keep your Dodge in the Garage")

591 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:36:07pm

re: #587 WindHorse

Fiat? Is this a bad joke?

/no, it's Obama thinking he and his drones, who all drive foreign cars, can run the auto industry better than the auto industry professionals, Ford execs must be laughing their asses off right about now

592 Ziggy Standard  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:36:33pm

Nite all :)

593 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:36:41pm

Okay, fine, I'll throw my point/question out. Maybe it'll distract from this recent harshing.

My marriage was disastrously short, less than six months. The shortest I've ever seen with my own eyes (Hollywood doesn't count). You could say it was stillborn, 'cause I found out a few months later that she had been cheating on me even before the wedding.

On the other end of the spectrum, I just found out last week that an adult from my childhood just got told by his wife that, after almost 30 years of marriage, she didn't want to be married any more. More accurately, didn't want to be married to him.

Here's the question: How could I, in good faith, enter an arrangement which will have me wondering every morning, no matter how many mornings have gone by, "will this be the day it all falls apart?"?

594 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:36:52pm

I've been reading Conscience of a Conservative, and I was struck by the chapter on the Soviet menace. First in how it could be completely rewritten by removing "Soviet" with "islamist" and still be an accurate analysis, and second how even then we didn't take our enemies as seriously a we should have:

The real cause of the deterioration can be simply stated. Our enemies have understood the nature of the conflict, and we have not. They are determined to win the conflict, and we are not.

Seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.

595 pat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:37:19pm

re: #591 Killian Bundy

Damn, you hit that right on. Anything American is Bad.

596 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:37:44pm

re: #591 Killian Bundy

/no, it's Obama thinking he and his drones, who all drive foreign cars, can run the auto industry better than the auto industry professionals, Ford execs must be laughing their asses off right about now

Yeah, but just think. It's a combination of two crappy car companies: Fiat and Chrysler.

597 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:38:06pm

weet dreams all!

598 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:38:16pm

re: #585 Killian Bundy

/and, so far, the markets are not amused

It's probably more than just the GM and Chrysler nonsense though. I'm sure this 21% move up in a week or so is unsustainable. Logic alone would dictate that some profit taking should happen after that.

The more "experts" in the media howl that "the bull is back" the more cautious I would be. Finance media is a joke and a contrarian indicator the majority of the time.

599 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:38:31pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

Here's the question: How could I, in good faith, enter an arrangement which will have me wondering every morning, no matter how many mornings have gone by, "will this be the day it all falls apart?"?

If you're already asking this question, it's a clue......

600 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:38:59pm

re: #594 Sharmuta

I've been reading Conscience of a Conservative, and I was struck by the chapter on the Soviet menace. First in how it could be completely rewritten by removing "Soviet" with "islamist" and still be an accurate analysis, and second how even then we didn't take our enemies as seriously a we should have:

Seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.

So few people understood then or understand now the wisdom of Mr. Goldwater. His political heir, McCain, sure doesn't.

601 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:39:36pm

re: #600 FurryOldGuyJeans

Do not ever compare Mr Goldwater to mccain again.

602 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:40:13pm

re: #577 Throbert McGee

Lol! Funny - but I'm too nice to do that! Heh.

603 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:40:18pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

Even asking the question at this early stage should be a clue to the answer.

604 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:41:22pm

re: #598 ArchangelMichael

The more "experts" in the media howl that "the bull is back"

/up 20% off a low is the definition of a bull market

605 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:41:26pm

re: #601 Sharmuta

Do not ever compare Mr Goldwater to mccain again.

The only comparison that can be made is both were Senators from Arizona, nothing else.

606 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:41:26pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

Okay, fine, I'll throw my point/question out. Maybe it'll distract from this recent harshing.

My marriage was disastrously short, less than six months. The shortest I've ever seen with my own eyes (Hollywood doesn't count). You could say it was stillborn, 'cause I found out a few months later that she had been cheating on me even before the wedding.

On the other end of the spectrum, I just found out last week that an adult from my childhood just got told by his wife that, after almost 30 years of marriage, she didn't want to be married any more. More accurately, didn't want to be married to him.

Here's the question: How could I, in good faith, enter an arrangement which will have me wondering every morning, no matter how many mornings have gone by, "will this be the day it all falls apart?"?

How do you leave your home each morning, knowing that this might be the day you get hit with a truck?

607 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:41:27pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

Forgive me if my memory is faulty, but did I read earlier today that you are engaged to be married again? If so, have you revealed these feelings/doubts to her? I believe this would be a good starting point.

608 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:41:40pm

Rob Pattinson's version of Bella's Theme.

Deep breaths.

609 pat  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:41:48pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

You know, i just spoke to a woman whose relationship began with an online internet marriage site. They are deliriously happy. I told my wife of 31 years it could have been so easy............

610 [deleted]  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:41:50pm
611 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:42:36pm

I've come late to many a trainwreck thread only to hear about it being discussed with a sort of quiet awe on the LNDT amongst the regulars (who usually give me the nutshell verson of the aforementioned trainwreck thread) but this is the first I've seen of a longtime lizard metldown firsthand...

612 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:43:12pm

re: #610 dcweber

Your turn to be asshole?

613 WindHorse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:43:24pm

I remember Doug.... didn't really say a whole lot really.....

614 AmeriDan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:43:36pm

re: #610 dcweber

LGF has really gone to the dogs

*WOOF*

615 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:43:55pm

re: #610 dcweber

Piss off.

616 WindHorse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:44:22pm

I think he was from Texas.... anyone...? do you remember?

617 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:44:24pm

re: #610 dcweber

Now, just who's sock puppet might you be? Hmmmm?

/ despairing minds really don't want to know

618 uberfasiq  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:44:27pm

My undergraduate degree is in Physics, and along with this I have spent several years studying Cosmology on the side. When Hitchens compares Astronomy to Astrology, he reveals the doltish but common habit of reaching for the reductio ad absurdum bag of argumentation in order to stifle reasonable dialogue. As well, he dismisses the relevance of teaching the history of competitive scientific theories in a way that reveals his absence of scientific knowledge. In my reading of Hitchens - I find that he has a regular habit of revealing such weaknesses. In areas of scientific study, where the research is highly dependent upon hypothesis and empiricism, it is most common to give a historical and comparative analysis of competing scientific theories. The study of Cosmology is an excellent example of this. One might wish to assume that the world of Cosmology is populated with scientists who are in perfect agreement over the subjects of dark matter, the constancy of the gravitational force, or say, the determination of cosmological distances using cepheid stars etc., but this is simply not the case. Thus, science textbooks which reveal such scientific hypotheses and theories will normally do so with a comparative analysis of competing views throughout history. It is the most honest way of doing science. Those who fear such open competition of thought, and who seek to stifle any opposition, are pursuing something other than science by definition.

619 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:44:48pm

re: #610 dcweber

Way to sign your own LGF death warrant.

/while you're at it, why not ask Charles if he'll validate your parking ticket

620 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:44:57pm

re: #610 dcweber

Don't let the screen door hit you in the rear on the way out.

621 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:45:32pm

re: #599 Sharmuta

re: #603 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm looking for some shred of hope to counter the "why bother?" that has exploded in my mind.

re: #607 pink freud

Nope, sorry, that has to be someone else.

622 LGoPs  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:45:56pm

re: #619 Killian Bundy

Way to sign your own LGF death warrant.

/while you're at it, why not ask Charles if he'll validate your parking ticket

LOL........
:)

623 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:46:03pm

re: #601 Sharmuta

Do not ever compare Mr Goldwater to mccain again.

Yeah, but I can imagine that a lot of people would have preferred to see McCain in office right about now. McCain also garnered far more votes than Goldwater. 20/20 hindsight is far too easy.

624 Roses  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:46:13pm

re: #482 SanFranciscoZionist

Bless you! A teacher on this forum can start to feel--unloved.
;)

BLESS YOU! And Thank You. Teachers are yet another whipping boy these days (and no, I am not a teacher). With politicians meddling for their own aggrandizement, turning routine tests (in CA the old CTBS tests) into political footballs (no pun intended - like the STAR tests) with teachers forced to 'teach to the test' and curriculums reordered to jockey for good results on the test...

The best line I ever heard - "Cows grow better when you feed them than when you weigh them."

As for improving schools - you may like this article: [Link: www.northcoastjournal.com...]
17 REASONS WHY FOOTBALL IS BETTER THAN HIGH SCHOOL

625 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:46:37pm

re: #618 uberfasiq

Does physics allow for supernatural explanations?

626 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:46:40pm

re: #614 AmeriDan

*WOOF*

You wanna a Scooby snack, eh? ;)

627 SpaceJesus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:46:51pm

lol Texas

628 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:47:11pm

re: #621 victor_yugo

The right person will vanquish the "why bother". OTOH, she may never show up and it will always be there.

629 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:47:19pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

And this makes your love different than anyone else's how?
All marriages are social constructs that either party can get out of, in most cases.
If you are not fighting, you are not adjusting to each other. A fight is not terminal, or should not be.

Do not part angrily, ever, or go to sleep angry.

We know a couple, married many years, they were going thru a rough patch. They were married more than 25 years. They had a fight. He said to her "You don't love me anymore!" and she agreed and walked off in a huff. Later that day, he dropped dead from a heart attack. The funeral was last Friday. The wife, now a widow, is absolutely beside herself over her own insensitivity.

630 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:47:26pm

re: #627 spacejesus

Oh good grief.

631 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:47:30pm

re: #610 dcweber

We have a Martyr Cookie seeker in sector 610, confidence is high I repeat confidence is high. Take us to Defcon 3, get SAC on the line and flush the bombers.

632 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:47:39pm

re: #614 AmeriDan

*WOOF*

Q: How do you make a cat go "woof"?

A: Soak it in gasoline and light it.

633 AmeriDan  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:47:41pm

re: #626 FurryOldGuyJeans

You wanna a Scooby snack, eh? ;)

*ARF*

;)

634 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:48:06pm

re: #618 uberfasiq

My undergraduate degree is in Physics, and along with this I have spent several years studying Cosmology on the side. When Hitchens compares Astronomy to Astrology, he reveals the doltish but common habit of reaching for the reductio ad absurdum bag of argumentation in order to stifle reasonable dialogue. As well, he dismisses the relevance of teaching the history of competitive scientific theories in a way that reveals his absence of scientific knowledge. In my reading of Hitchens - I find that he has a regular habit of revealing such weaknesses. In areas of scientific study, where the research is highly dependent upon hypothesis and empiricism, it is most common to give a historical and comparative analysis of competing scientific theories. The study of Cosmology is an excellent example of this. One might wish to assume that the world of Cosmology is populated with scientists who are in perfect agreement over the subjects of dark matter, the constancy of the gravitational force, or say, the determination of cosmological distances using cepheid stars etc., but this is simply not the case. Thus, science textbooks which reveal such scientific hypotheses and theories will normally do so with a comparative analysis of competing views throughout history. It is the most honest way of doing science. Those who fear such open competition of thought, and who seek to stifle any opposition, are pursuing something other than science by definition.

Okay, then giv me a single example of an empirical-evidence-supported theory that competes with evolution.

635 Clemente  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:48:07pm

A locally popular San Diegan, who indignantly offered no comment when asked for thoughts on the the notion of apes and creationists sharing a common ancestor a million or so generations back.

636 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:48:44pm

re: #621 victor_yugo

I can't answer that for you. Perhaps another woman will though....

637 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:48:53pm

re: #618 uberfasiq

Are you actually saying that creationism should be studied alongside of evolution?

638 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:49:17pm

re: #625 Sharmuta

Does physics allow for supernatural explanations?

Miracle

639 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:50:11pm

re: #623 Gus 802

The worst thing Barry decided to do was seek the nomination when he did. No republican was going to win against the ghost of JFK.

640 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:50:55pm

re: #632 victor_yugo

Watch your back, Victor my dear. When you least expect it, my clawed minions will get you. /It's amazing how often some posters forget that there are lizards of the furry persuasion here. /

641 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:51:38pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

The worst thing Barry decided to do was seek the nomination when he did. No republican was going to win against the ghost of JFK.

True. No Republican could win against the Obama phenomenon in my view.

642 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:51:43pm

re: #640 Catttt

I grew up with cats. I like cats. They taste like chicken.

643 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:51:43pm

re: #640 Catttt

Watch your back, Victor my dear. When you least expect it, my clawed minions will get you. /It's amazing how often some posters forget that there are lizards of the furry persuasion here. /

*A-HEM!* ;)

644 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:52:13pm

re: #637 MandyManners

Are you actually saying that creationism should be studied alongside of evolution?

645 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:52:23pm

re: #635 Clemente

A locally popular San Diegan, who indignantly offered no comment when asked for thoughts on the the notion of apes and creationists sharing a common ancestor a million or so generations back.

That bastard totally ignored me when I asked him about it a few years ago too.

646 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:52:37pm

re: #638 Catttt

Miracle

HA!

The last time we had a physicist here in favor of ID, I asked the same question. I wonder if I'll get an answer this time.

647 Ateam  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:53:11pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

Okay, fine, I'll throw my point/question out. Maybe it'll distract from this recent harshing.

My marriage was disastrously short, less than six months. The shortest I've ever seen with my own eyes (Hollywood doesn't count). You could say it was stillborn, 'cause I found out a few months later that she had been cheating on me even before the wedding.

On the other end of the spectrum, I just found out last week that an adult from my childhood just got told by his wife that, after almost 30 years of marriage, she didn't want to be married any more. More accurately, didn't want to be married to him.

Here's the question: How could I, in good faith, enter an arrangement which will have me wondering every morning, no matter how many mornings have gone by, "will this be the day it all falls apart?"?

Never get married (officially). Live with beloved one (or better separately), have children (if genetics qualified). From other people experience - wedding doomed to fail.

648 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:53:45pm

re: #641 Gus 802

True. No Republican could win against the Obama phenomenon in my view.

Please- I'm depressed enough tonight.

649 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:54:16pm

Ahhh. My cats are mad too - they just started fighting. Oh, hissing is involved.

Now they stopped and are looking at me - they have guilty consciences. The Siamese has come to beg forgiveness of me, the grand pasha queen cat.

650 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:54:18pm

re: #593 victor_yugo

Okay, fine, I'll throw my point/question out. Maybe it'll distract from this recent harshing.

My marriage was disastrously short, less than six months. The shortest I've ever seen with my own eyes (Hollywood doesn't count). You could say it was stillborn, 'cause I found out a few months later that she had been cheating on me even before the wedding.

On the other end of the spectrum, I just found out last week that an adult from my childhood just got told by his wife that, after almost 30 years of marriage, she didn't want to be married any more. More accurately, didn't want to be married to him.

Here's the question: How could I, in good faith, enter an arrangement which will have me wondering every morning, no matter how many mornings have gone by, "will this be the day it all falls apart?"?

It's stepping off a cliff having faith that you won't fall.

651 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:54:29pm

re: #634 Salamantis

Okay, then giv me a single example of an empirical-evidence-supported theory that competes with evolution.

He doesn't have one. Just another troll. After the fireworks settled down and we got back on topic, Spar Kling showed up for a drive-by troll spew. Then we had our first creationist meltdown (and the third meltdown on the thread) at number 610. This troll is just the latest goober to match wits with you. He'll fail, like all the others.

652 Roses  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:54:42pm

re: #604 Killian Bundy

/up 20% off a (new 12 YEAR) low is the definition of a bull market

FIFY

653 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:54:52pm

re: #648 Sharmuta

Please- I'm depressed enough tonight.

Sorry. We'll see what happens.

654 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:55:43pm

re: #651 Dark_Falcon

He doesn't have one. Just another troll. After the fireworks settled down and we got back on topic, Spar Kling showed up for a drive-by troll spew. Then we had our first creationist meltdown (and the third meltdown on the thread) at number 610. This troll is just the latest goober to match wits with you. He'll fail, like all the others.

I do like eating goober peas. ;)

655 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:56:02pm

re: #651 Dark_Falcon

This troll is just the latest goober to match wits with you. He'll fail, like all the others.

Sal, are you fighting the unarmed again?

656 Throbert McGee  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:56:48pm

re: #580 SanFranciscoZionist

There is some strange cosmic connection between Arabic and Russian. I don't know exactly why, or how. Apparently "Nasrallah", as in the name of the Hezbollah leader, means in Russian "she took a dump".

Yep. "Nasral" is a past tense masculine verb meaning "he took a dump," but stick the "-la" on the end and it becomes feminine.

However, there are apparently far more examples of Hebrew words that sound dirty to Russians -- or at least, far more examples have been noticed, for the obvious reasons that a pretty considerable number of Russian speakers have immigrated to Israel and thus had a motivation to learn Hebrew, whereas relatively few Russians have any reason to study Arabic. (Or at least, so I've been told.)

657 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:57:06pm

re: #618 uberfasiq

Cosmology is not even remotely a science. It's closely associated to Voodoo, ESP, and magic.

658 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:57:12pm

re: #653 Gus 802

Sorry. We'll see what happens.

I think by 2012 the country will be ready for an adult with some fiscal ability. Hopefully we can get Mitt the nomination.

659 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:57:56pm

re: #634 Salamantis

Okay, then giv me a single example of an empirical-evidence-supported theory that competes with evolution.

No such thing exists and anyone claiming to be a scientist and making this statement possible got their degree from a diploma mill.

660 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:58:21pm
661 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:58:24pm

Hi, Throbert. How have you been?

662 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:58:42pm

re: #658 Sharmuta

I think by 2012 the country will be ready for an adult with some fiscal ability. Hopefully we can get Mitt the nomination.

That's doable. I'll back Romney.

663 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:58:51pm

re: #657 Gus 802

I hope you meant astrology or forgot the sarc tag on that one. Cosmology is definitely a science.

664 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:58:58pm

re: #655 victor_yugo

Sal, are you fighting the unarmed again?

I'm awaiting the appearance of his rapier wit, but so far I've only seen half of it, and that half has been rather dim.

665 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:59:31pm

re: #574 Spar Kling

Um, I'm against including creationism in any science curriculum, but you should be careful about mocking the PI=3 thing. Asimov also used it, but if you look into the question further, there is more in the Bible than meets the eye.

See [Link: www.arcytech.org...] for the details (scroll to the bottom if you want to fast forward to the relevant info).

-sk

That must be what they taught you in the correspondence school where you received your "science degree."

Pi = 3. And I thought I'd seen everything.

666 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:59:38pm

re: #663 ArchangelMichael

I hope you meant astrology or forgot the sarc tag on that one. Cosmology is definitely a science.

Oh, oops. Ignore that comment then.

667 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 10:59:54pm

re: #664 Salamantis

I'm awaiting the appearance of his rapier wit, but so far I've only seen half of it, and that half has been rather dim.

Wet match in a dark cave.

668 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:00:16pm

re: #652 Roses

FIFY

Well, yeah, all Bulls gots to start somewhere.

/technically, the indexes now have to fall 20% off a high to revert to a Bear market

669 Racer X  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:00:29pm

Math through the decades....

1. Teaching Math In 1950s
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit ?

2. Teaching Math In 1960s
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100 His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

3. Teaching Math In 1970s
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

4. Teaching Math In 1980s
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

5. Teaching Math In 1990s
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it's ok. )

6. Teaching Math In 2008
Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80. Cuanto dine.

670 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:00:35pm

re: #655 victor_yugo

Sal, are you fighting the unarmed again?

No, the trolls still have their weapons of idiocy. But against Sal, such weapons are useless. His logic salvos can blow away the densest creationist arguments!

671 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:01:57pm

re: #660 gmsc

That is really sad.

672 Sharmuta  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:03:18pm

I have an odd craving for pie now.

673 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:03:58pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

I have an odd craving for pie now.

I'm here!
;)

674 TheMatrix31  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:04:00pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

I have an odd craving for pie now.

I feel like drowning my sorrows in a blueberry cheesecake.

675 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:04:03pm

re: #670 Dark_Falcon

No, the trolls still have their weapons of idiocy. But against Sal, such weapons are useless. His logic salvos can blow away the densest creationist arguments!

I possess the logical tools, but I don't really need them that much, since ALL of the empirical evidence is on my side.

676 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:04:14pm

And we still have people ranting away about "freedom of speech" in the tea party thread, and refusing to understand that there is nothing wrong with wanting a demonstration to have insurance.

Arrrghhh.

677 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:04:25pm

Pie are square? No, pie are not square. Pie are round. Cornbread are square.

678 SteveC  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:05:08pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

I have an odd craving for pie now.

Pi Squared? Pi are not square, Pi are round!

679 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:05:36pm

I think people who believe that pi = 3 should be forced to drive cars with wheels that are built according to that equation.

680 SteveC  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:05:44pm

re: #677 victor_yugo

Pie are square? No, pie are not square. Pie are round. Cornbread are square.

re: #678 SteveC

Pi Squared? Pi are not square, Pi are round!

Great minds, great minds! :)

681 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:06:12pm

re: #677 victor_yugo

Pie are square? No, pie are not square. Pie are round. Cornbread are square.

re: #678 SteveC

Pi Squared? Pi are not square, Pi are round!

GMTA!

682 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:06:36pm

re: #680 SteveC

Great minds, great minds! :)

re: #681 gmsc

GMTA!

Mega-GMTA!

683 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:06:57pm

re: #676 Charles

And we still have people ranting away about "freedom of speech" in the tea party thread, and refusing to understand that there is nothing wrong with wanting a demonstration to have insurance.

Arrrghhh.

Crazy seems to be contagious these days. I came here for solace from my personal woes, and then got to watch a long-time poster self destruct. Sick and sad. Keep the faith Charles, having you around does make the craziness somewhat more bearable.

684 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:07:43pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

I have an odd craving for pie now.

685 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:07:43pm

re: #679 Charles

I think people who believe that pi = 3 should be forced to drive cars with wheels that are built according to that equation.

Anyone that believe PI = 3 should be kept as far from machinery as possible, especially cars.

686 Erik The Red  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:07:45pm

Morning/Afternoon/Evening Lizards. Has anyone seen Blue around in the last few hours?

687 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:07:49pm

re: #676 Charles

And we still have people ranting away about "freedom of speech" in the tea party thread, and refusing to understand that there is nothing wrong with wanting a demonstration to have insurance.

Arrrghhh.

I found the code but I guess that didn't sink in. I thought these guys were all about "law and order" but I guess in the end it's "law and order for thee but not for me." They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorists by now.

688 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:08:20pm

re: #665 Charles

That must be what they taught you in the correspondence school where you received your "science degree."

Pi = 3. And I thought I'd seen everything.

I &hearts pi.

689 WindHorse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:08:38pm

Cherry Pie


690 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:08:47pm

re: #672 Sharmuta

I have an odd craving for pie now.

Pecan pie.

691 pink freud  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:08:53pm

re: #686 Erik The Red

He's not been on yet, Erik. No word.

692 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:09:05pm

re: #679 Charles

I think people who believe that pi = 3 should be forced to drive cars with wheels that are built according to that equation.

It is physically impossible. 3.14159265... is the absolute MINIMUM circumference/diameter ration possible. Distort the circle, and the circumference lengthens without affecting the average diameter.

693 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:09:21pm

re: #679 Charles

I think people who believe that pi = 3 should be forced to drive cars with wheels that are built according to that equation.

Legend tells of a computer programming book with this snippet of wisdom:

"We define pi as a constant, thus:

#define PI 3.1415925358979L

Now, if the value of pi should ever change..."

AAAAUGH!

694 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:09:36pm

re: #688 Catttt

I ♥ pi.

I ♥ π, too!

695 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:10:17pm

re: #676 Charles

And we still have people ranting away about "freedom of speech" in the tea party thread, and refusing to understand that there is nothing wrong with wanting a demonstration to have insurance.

Arrrghhh.

That's not as bad as the debate about how Noah's Ark could really happen as is occurring over at hot air . I must be a glutton for punishment :)

696 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:10:29pm

re: #692 Salamantis

It is physically impossible. 3.14159265... is the absolute MINIMUM circumference/diameter ration possible. Distort the circle, and the circumference lengthens without affecting the average diameter.

An ellipse inscribed in the circle would do it I think.

697 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:10:39pm

re: #692 Salamantis

It is physically impossible. 3.14159265... is the absolute MINIMUM circumference/diameter ration possible. Distort the circle, and the circumference lengthens without affecting the average diameter.

So, let them take the bus. :D

698 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:11:12pm

re: #663 ArchangelMichael

I hope you meant astrology or forgot the sarc tag on that one. Cosmology is definitely a science.

It's confusing because this involves creationists. Hard to keep up since the creationists want to transform science into a debatable medium.

699 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:11:41pm

re: #696 ArchangelMichael

An ellipse inscribed in the circle would do it I think.

It wouldn't change the radius/circumference ratio of the circle, which is still pi.

700 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:11:46pm

re: #692 Salamantis

It is physically impossible. 3.14159265... is the absolute MINIMUM circumference/diameter ration possible. Distort the circle, and the circumference lengthens without affecting the average diameter.

That kinda is the point, that their religious dogma supersedes reality.

701 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:11:58pm

re: #676 Charles

And we still have people ranting away about "freedom of speech" in the tea party thread, and refusing to understand that there is nothing wrong with wanting a demonstration to have insurance.

Arrrghhh.

They can bring their own tea bags as far as I'm concerned. No tea for you !

702 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:12:08pm

re: #696 ArchangelMichael

An ellipse inscribed in the circle would do it I think.

Actually, it wouldn't. Because that would decrease the average diameter by more than it decreased the circumference.

703 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:12:32pm

Let the Nazis march on Skokie!

/it's free speech after all, nevermind public safety!

704 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:13:13pm

Speaking of cosmology, this is one of my favorite videos. Never try to hold up a beauty school in Shreveport.

705 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:13:15pm

re: #692 Salamantis

It is physically impossible. 3.14159265... is the absolute MINIMUM circumference/diameter ration possible. Distort the circle, and the circumference lengthens without affecting the average diameter.

My tires are rounded to an even 3 at the moment. But thats just not pretty anyway. Braking is usually done by foot or by yelling LOOK OUT.

706 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:13:44pm

re: #676 Charles

And we still have people ranting away about "freedom of speech" in the tea party thread, and refusing to understand that there is nothing wrong with wanting a demonstration to have insurance.

Arrrghhh.

BTW: Roses, on of the posters on that thread is one of the people who updinged ploomi's posts. That's a nutcase clue right there.

707 SteveC  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:13:57pm

re: #663 ArchangelMichael

I hope you meant astrology or forgot the sarc tag on that one. Cosmology is definitely a science.

Insomnia is whoopin' my fanny. I read that as Cosmetology and wondered how in the hell foundations and eyeliner got into the discussion.

708 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:14:01pm

re: #695 BryanS

That's not as bad as the debate about how Noah's Ark could really happen as is occurring over at hot air . I must be a glutton for punishment :)

I'm no longer surprised that there are people in the 21st century who believe Noah's Ark really existed.

709 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:14:16pm

re: #698 Gus 802

It's confusing because this involves creationists. Hard to keep up since the creationists want to transform science into a debatable medium.

That's better than Al Gore, who's turning science into a popularity contest/shouting match.

710 stevieray  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:14:36pm

re: #704 Catttt

Speaking of cosmology, this is one of my favorite videos. Never try to hold up a beauty school in Shreveport.

[Video]

Psst! I think that's cosmetology...

711 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:14:46pm

re: #698 Gus 802

It's confusing because this involves creationists. Hard to keep up since the creationists want to transform science into a debatable medium.

I guess technically "Cosmology" means "Study of structure of the World/Universe" and therefore a creationist world view would have its own "cosmology" but when I say or hear it I mean it or assume it to meant in the modern astrophysics sense.

712 freetoken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:14:51pm

Mos Def for Texas SBOE!

/would he be worse?

713 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:15:39pm

re: #709 victor_yugo

That's better than Al Gore, who's turning science into a popularity contest/shouting match.

Punch his lights out, I would ;)

714 rawmuse  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:15:59pm

re: #705 Buster Bunny

My tires are rounded to an even 3 at the moment. But thats just not pretty anyway. Braking is usually done by foot or by yelling LOOK OUT.

Be sure to rotate the air in your tires, twice a year. /

715 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:16:09pm

re: #712 freetoken

Mos Def for Texas SBOE!

/would he be worse?

Could he be worse? Possible, but it sure would be a photo finish horse race to determine that.

716 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:16:17pm

re: #708 Charles

I'm no longer surprised that there are people in the 21st century who believe Noah's Ark really existed.

I suppose you've seen enough nonsensical religiosity for that. In reply to a user named goat who thinks the story is allegory--at least not as ridiculous as thinking it's literal truth, they get this :


goat, there are many resources in the literature that describe how Noah could have successfully done what the Bible describes. But it seems to me that you would rather not study those references. You would rather doubt your book and encourage others to doubt it rather than see if it could be true. That doesn’t sound like a careful and reasoned approach to me.

Christian Conservative on March 30, 2009 at 2:06 AM

717 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:16:33pm

re: #710 stevieray

Psst! I think that's cosmetology...

You DON'T say. :D

718 Ateam  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:16:35pm

re: #679 Charles

You all ways can walk (not driving) in circles (Pi=3 radiant).

719 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:16:47pm

re: #714 rawmuse

Be sure to rotate the air in your tires, twice a year. /

...and change your radio fluid at the same time.

720 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:17:17pm

re: #711 ArchangelMichael

I guess technically "Cosmology" means "Study of structure of the World/Universe" and therefore a creationist world view would have its own "cosmology" but when I say or hear it I mean it or assume it to meant in the modern astrophysics sense.

Yes. I'll stick with my original assumption. Uberfasiq is a truther.

721 Jack Burton  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:17:30pm

re: #702 Salamantis

Actually, it wouldn't. Because that would decrease the average diameter by more than it decreased the circumference.

Well I was operating on the impression that the radius would be the semi-major axis rather than the integral over the whole circumference. I guess you are right though, in that case it would not work.

722 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:17:37pm

re: #713 Buster Bunny

Punch his lights out, I would ;)

Talk like Yoda, already you do.

723 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:17:38pm

re: #705 Buster Bunny

My tires are rounded to an even 3 at the moment. But thats just not pretty anyway. Braking is usually done by foot or by yelling LOOK OUT.

Then your tires are hexagonal.

724 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:17:47pm

re: #717 Catttt

You DON'T say. :D

I believe he just did say, but don't quote me on that. I could be mistaken. ;)

725 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:18:56pm

The following is made possible by a grant from the Windsor Pneumatics Foundation:

726 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:18:57pm

re: #722 victor_yugo

Talk like Yoda, already you do.

If 900 years you live, small green and ugly you are, speech least of worries, yes?

727 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:19:21pm

re: #723 gmsc

Then your tires are hexagonal.

/hey, if you get them rotating fast enough . . .

728 SteveC  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:19:32pm

re: #714 rawmuse

Be sure to rotate the air in your tires, twice a year. /

At church this morning someone had been "adjusting" the thermostats and the heat was on at the front of the building while the air conditioner was on in the rear. I told a few people that where a warm front and a cold front collide is where you get disturbed weather - we might see rain in the middle aisles.

I think one or two of them believed me...!

729 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:19:47pm

re: #716 BryanS

Considering the Noah's Flood story as allegory is defensible, the post you quoted was the work of a fool trying to use cherry-picked stories to hide his hostility to science.

730 Salamantis  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:20:08pm

re: #702 Salamantis

Actually, it wouldn't. Because that would decrease the average diameter by more than it decreased the circumference.

Umm, I stated this incorrectly. What I meant to say is that it would decrease the average diameter enough so that, even with the decrease in circumference, the circumference/diameter ration would exceed pi. One of the properties of a perfect circle is that it possesses the minimum possible circumference/diameter ratio possible in a closed and bounded two-dimensional plane figure. And that ratio is pi.

731 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:20:08pm

re: #726 Buster Bunny

If 900 years you live, small green and ugly you are, speech least of worries, yes?

But somehow he got English grammar correct in his "hate leads to suffering" speech.

732 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:20:22pm

re: #726 Buster Bunny

If 900 years you live, small green and ugly you are, speech least of worries, yes?

LOL!

733 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:21:07pm

re: #724 FurryOldGuyJeans

I believe he just did say, but don't quote me on that. I could be mistaken. ;)

Maybe he didn't get it because I forgot the rimshot after "cosmology."

734 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:21:21pm

re: #731 victor_yugo

But somehow he got English grammar correct in his "hate leads to suffering" speech.

Indeed. The first two people to get banned on this thread would have done well to remember that speech.

735 Gus  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:22:15pm

The Highwaymen - Big River

736 Catttt  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:22:35pm

Bedtime for moi.

Good night, lizards. Chins up!

737 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:22:37pm

re: #734 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. The first two people to get banned on this thread would have done well to remember that speech.

Oh .. missed it .. who went blammo?

738 BryanS  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:23:28pm

re: #729 Dark_Falcon

Considering the Noah's Flood story as allegory is defensible, the post you quoted was the work of a fool trying to use cherry-picked stories to hide his hostility to science.

Agreed. I may disagree with the view that god is responsible for the world we live in, but at least allegory allows those who are religious to make their beliefs consistent with the real world we live in.

739 Afrocity  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:26:09pm

Can you guys believe this about Obama's town hall meeting last week?

But while the online question portion of the White House town hall was open to any member of the public with an Internet connection, the five fully identified questioners called on randomly by the president in the East Room were anything but a diverse lot. They included: a member of the pro-Obama Service Employees International Union, a member of the Democratic National Committee who campaigned for Obama among Hispanics during the primary; a former Democratic candidate for Virginia state delegate who endorsed Obama last fall in an op-ed in the Fredericksburg Free Lance-Star; and a Virginia businessman who was a donor to Obama's campaign in 2008.

740 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:26:34pm

re: #737 Buster Bunny

Oh .. missed it .. who went blammo?

ploome hineni defended Baruch Goldstein's mass murder of Arabs and got the gate. Another posted called yy agreed with ploome and also caught the stick. The third bannee, dcweber, was a standard creationist meltdown.

741 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:27:35pm

re: #739 Afrocity

Can you guys believe this about Obama's town hall meeting last week?

Yes, I can believe there isn't a devious stunt he won't try.

742 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:28:07pm

In the Noah's Ark story, I always wondered who had the unenviable job of procuring polar bears, penguins, turkeys, koalas and kangaroos.

743 Afrocity  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:28:40pm

re: #740 Dark_Falcon

What happened today?

744 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:28:41pm

re: #739 Afrocity

Can you guys believe this about Obama's town hall meeting last week?

Yep, I can believe it. He can't handle real question so he just takes softballs from people in the tank for him. Weak, cowardly, and foolish: that's Obama.

745 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:28:43pm

Hi, lizards, just checking in. There was a Tea Party thread? Don't think I'll look. I got so jazzed about the Tea Parties at first but I am not going to attend the one in my neighboring community after all. I'd be embarrassed to be associated if the loons show up, and they probably will. What a darn shame.

Maybe I should at least drive by and take a look, though.

746 Afrocity  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:29:30pm

re: #742 gmsc

Noah is my favorite biblical figure.

747 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:29:46pm

re: #742 gmsc

In the Noah's Ark story, I always wondered who had the unenviable job of procuring polar bears, penguins, turkeys, koalas and kangaroos.

And duckbilled platypi (there's that "pi" again!), and orangutans, and toucans, and parakeets, and and and...

748 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:30:49pm

re: #743 Afrocity

What happened today?

re: #743 Afrocity

What happened today?

We had a double meltdown owing to a long time poster defending a murderer. Sad thing to watch: one of our own went vicious crazy.

749 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:30:57pm

re: #746 Afrocity

Noah is my favorite biblical figure.

For Afrocity:

Noah's Ark
starring Donald Duck

750 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:31:05pm

re: #739 Afrocity

Can you guys believe this about Obama's town hall meeting last week?

I believe pretty much anything about the man and his cabinet after issuing White House press credentials to the Huffington Post and Ed Schultz....

751 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:31:32pm

re: #742 gmsc

In the Noah's Ark story, I always wondered who had the unenviable job of procuring polar bears, penguins, turkeys, koalas and kangaroos.

If I'm not mistaken there's a Jewish version of the story where Noah is raped by his brother (or something like that). Very odd.

752 victor_yugo  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:31:40pm

re: #746 Afrocity

Noah is my favorite biblical figure.

Mine is Samuel, the child prophet. His was the first Bible story I learned.

753 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:32:06pm

re: #740 Dark_Falcon

ploome hineni defended Baruch Goldstein's mass murder of Arabs and got the gate. Another posted called yy agreed with ploome and also caught the stick. The third bannee, dcweber, was a standard creationist meltdown.

I love the ones that go for about 3 or 4 posts .. then they just CANT COPE. And they come forth with the rant about how awful LGF is blah blah. And Charles just swats them .. packs em up .. and silences them nicely

Awesome. Dont let the idiots phase you Charles. Mission to do, people to make aware, world to save. Big Tasks.

754 Afrocity  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:32:29pm

re: #752 victor_yugo

I am named after his offspring.

755 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:32:53pm

re: #745 Pvt Bin Jammin

Hi, lizards, just checking in. There was a Tea Party thread? Don't think I'll look. I got so jazzed about the Tea Parties at first but I am not going to attend the one in my neighboring community after all. I'd be embarrassed to be associated if the loons show up, and they probably will. What a darn shame.

Maybe I should at least drive by and take a look, though.

I'm developing some thoughts on the Tea Parties. I don't think it's a healthy movement on many different levels.

756 Afrocity  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:34:04pm
A long time ago, when the Earth was green
There was more kinds of animals than you've ever seen
They'd run around free while the Earth was being born
And the loveliest of all was the unicorn

There was green alligators and long-necked geese
Some humpty backed camels and some chimpanzees
Some cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born
The loveliest of all was the unicorn

The Lord seen some sinning and it gave Him pain
And He says, "Stand back, I'm going to make it rain"
He says, "Hey Noah, I'll tell you what to do
Build me a floating zoo,
and take some of those...

Green alligators and long-necked geese
Some humpty backed camels and some chimpanzees
Some cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born
Don't you forget My unicorns

757 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:34:22pm

re: #739 Afrocity

Can you guys believe this about Obama's town hall meeting last week?

I believe it all too well, since this was a favorite tactic of his for many of his campaign stops, getting seemingly random questions from planted supporters.

758 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:34:40pm

re: #751 Killgore Trout
Ok, I didn't imagine that.....
Family Sexual Secrets in Genesis

759 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:35:54pm

re: #742 gmsc

In the Noah's Ark story, I always wondered who had the unenviable job of procuring polar bears, penguins, turkeys, koalas and kangaroos.

I would imagine the cleanup job would be even worse considering it was 40 days and 40 nights all those animals were confined into a small space.

760 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:36:01pm

re: #756 Afrocity

Well, some of the unicorns must have survived to fart rainbows for Obama.

/kidding

761 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:36:17pm

re: #752 victor_yugo

Mine is Samuel, the child prophet. His was the first Bible story I learned.

I remember having a Sunday School teacher with a good sense of humor (I guess you could say he was my favorite biblical character ;). My favorite saying of his was, "'Song of Solomon' is the only book of the bible dedicated solely to romantic love . . . and its initials are SOS."

762 Buster Bunny  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:37:15pm

re: #747 victor_yugo

And duckbilled platypi (there's that "pi" again!), and orangutans, and toucans, and parakeets, and and and...

The one I love is the MANDELBROT SET (yes its time to google that) Its one of the most fascinating little piece of maths that gets more complex the more you delve into it. So you may ask .. whats it useful for? Well it turns out that a lot of the mandelbrots features are emulated in nature and are also very useful for engineering. But its also very pretty .. awww.

763 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:37:56pm

re: #754 Afrocity

I am named after his offspring.

Trying to keep the name in the family, eh? ;)

Evening, beautiful lady. :)

{Afrocity}

764 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:38:39pm

Time for me to head to bed. Stay sane, all.

765 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:39:04pm

re: #762 Buster Bunny

The one I love is the MANDELBROT SET (yes its time to google that) Its one of the most fascinating little piece of maths that gets more complex the more you delve into it. So you may ask .. whats it useful for? Well it turns out that a lot of the mandelbrots features are emulated in nature and are also very useful for engineering. But its also very pretty .. awww.

Ahhhh, fractals. :)

766 freetoken  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:39:11pm

I wonder what Hitchens would think of dowsing?

Apparently, there is a dowsing contingent here on LGF. I say that because the usual anti-IPCC lizards continue to want to put in the spin-off links (under "science" even) a opinion piece by another anti-AGW writer, on the "fact" that sea level is not rising. The source of said "fact" is none other than retired Swedish professor Nils-Axel Mörner, another noted anti-IPCC idealogue, who not only claims that sea-level is not rising (contrary to all the centers and groups who do study and publish on the topic today), but, according to wikipedia:

Mörner has written a number of works claiming to provide theoretical support for dowsing, also known as water witching.

The link Wiki gives for this is [Link: www.astromeditions.com...] (Mörner is at the end of the list.)

767 Killian Bundy  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:39:22pm

re: #758 Killgore Trout

Ok, I didn't imagine that.....
Family Sexual Secrets in Genesis

/no agenda there

768 gmsc  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:39:22pm

re: #762 Buster Bunny

The one I love is the MANDELBROT SET (yes its time to google that) Its one of the most fascinating little piece of maths that gets more complex the more you delve into it. So you may ask .. whats it useful for? Well it turns out that a lot of the mandelbrots features are emulated in nature and are also very useful for engineering. But its also very pretty .. awww.

769 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:42:22pm

re: #755 Killgore Trout

I'm developing some thoughts on the Tea Parties. I don't think it's a healthy movement on many different levels.

I don't know what to think about it at this point but if I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm not going, and I am feeling uncomfortable.

Wish I had a good camera with a telephoto lens, because I know I am going to take my dogs for a walk nearby. LOL

770 BatGuano  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:42:42pm

re: #739 Afrocity

"...the five fully identified questioners called on randomly by the president in the East Room were anything but a diverse lot".

We also have a new definition of "randomly".

771 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:46:08pm

re: #742 gmsc

In the Noah's Ark story, I always wondered who had the unenviable job of procuring polar bears, penguins, turkeys, koalas and kangaroos.

Penguins are easy. My grandfather stole a penguin from the zoo once, in med school. Just stick one under each arm and run.

/well, he did, but yes, I get the drift of your original post

772 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:47:31pm

re: #766 freetoken

Seriously? LOL

I knew Charles did a hilarious post on it but didn't know we had a contingent. They will probably down ding us during the night.

773 SteveC  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:48:50pm

re: #756 Afrocity

The Lord seen some sinning and it gave Him pain
And He says, "Stand back, I'm going to make it rain"
He says, "Hey Noah, I'll tell you what to do
Build me a floating zoo,

Heard this one?

Well the Lord looked down from His window in the sky and said
I created man but I don't remember why
Nothin' but fightin' since creation day
I'll send a little water and I'll wash'em all away.

So the Lord came down to look around a spell
And there He found Noah behavin' mighty well
And that is the reason the Scriptures record
Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

774 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:52:25pm

re: #751 Killgore Trout

If I'm not mistaken there's a Jewish version of the story where Noah is raped by his brother (or something like that). Very odd.

Genesis Chapter 9:
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

The act of 'seeing his father's nakedness' is interpreted by some sources as a sexual act, since similar phrases are used in the Tanach as a euphemism for intercourse. The fact that the other two turn their heads aside to avoid seeing, though, indicates to me (great Torah scholar that I am), that seeing here may just be seeing.

775 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 29, 2009 11:54:59pm

re: #759 FurryOldGuyJeans

I would imagine the cleanup job would be even worse considering it was 40 days and 40 nights all those animals were confined into a small space.

We disucssed this on one of the dinosaur threads. I tell ya, it's just like kitties and toilets--the T-rexes can be taught to swing their tails out over the side of the boat.

The other problem is that if you take the specs for the Ark straight out of Genesis, IIRC, you end up with, essentially, a cube.

776 freetoken  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:00:56am

re: #772 Pvt Bin Jammin

It is just the same crowd of people who are so intent on Gore-bashing that they don't even take the time to look into the background of the people to whom they are linking.

What they end up doing is making a mockery of Charles' attempt to make this into a pro-science, we-fact-check-your-ass blog.

777 pegcity  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:21:06am

re: #436 Charles

justification of any terrorism is disgusting.

say no to the left wing mantra of ones man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

there are no freedom fighters

778 Salem  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:21:18am

I remember an exchange with Ploome where I realized that it had seemingly never occurred to her that the people tried in the Salem Witch Trials weren't actually guilty. I didn't pay her much attention after that.

779 pegcity  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:23:09am

re: #751 Killgore Trout

If I'm not mistaken there's a Jewish version of the story where Noah is raped by his brother (or something like that). Very odd.

isn't that the whole basis of Homosexuality being bad in christianity?

thou shalt not lie with another man or something

780 Abu Lahab  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 5:26:04am

Any country that does not wish good for the US will be happy to see science systematically discredited. Those who think there are conspiracies "to spread atheism" are nuts, because faith is a very complex and deep issue to be wiped out by any conspiracies.
Spreading anti-science attitudes, though, is real and dangerous, especially when you are taught that as a kid.
I find this issue very important in the longer run for any society, it's about the attitude to science and the separation of science from religion.

781 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 5:43:49am

re: #395 ploome hineni

did you read the whole article?

I read what you posted. Sounds like the logic one expects from a Hamas Mullah. I can't think of anything that would negate your post except more disturbed logic of the same kind. Give it a rest if you want to retain any credibility.

782 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 5:46:25am

re: #433 yy

You are an apologist ass attempting to justify one perversion by describing another. It's a common dysfunction in some.

783 Kenneth  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 7:02:20am

Don McLeroy is rambling and incoherent. In 6 minutes of speaking he failed to make one conclusive point, and very few complete sentences. Pathetic.

784 Canoe Train  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 7:09:13am

This reminds me of a very old saying: "It is better to keep silent, and let the world think you are an idiot, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt."

785 Kenneth  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 7:22:54am

re: #297 funky chicken

That's a very good piece by Frum. A clear description of what's wrong with conservatism in America today.

786 notutopia  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 8:47:35am

Ploome and Nana,
I pray for an awakening solace and enlightened peaceful path for both of you.
The power of belief in a bloodless resolution for the standby innocents, is the only present day course for history to take. Do not proceed and follow down that dark path of wishing and condoning murder of innocents, in order to correct the evil actions of all who have transgressed Jews or You will also become like the enemy you dispose.
I am so sad for the loss of your words here Ploome.
You have taught me much in your creative and historical postings. Thank you for all the good you have shared here.

787 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 9:23:22am

I can't sit though to the whole speech, but I am impressed by his comfy chair.

788 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 9:24:52am

re: #776 freetoken

It is just the same crowd of people who are so intent on Gore-bashing that they don't even take the time to look into the background of the people to whom they are linking.

Yep. Some folks seem to think that all you need to make sense of the AGW debate is 'Gore=bad, anti-Gore=good'. My guess is that if Gore were to announce:

"Cyanide is a very toxic substance that is extremely harmful to the environment and should never - EVER - be sprinkled on breakfast cereal."

...there'd be a lot of 'AGW sceptics' found dead over their cheerios next morning.

789 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 10:32:19am

Somebody shoulda told me not to waste my time on nonentities. Looks like I was way late on this one. Good.

790 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 11:43:05am

re: #789 Naso Tang

Somebody shoulda told me not to waste my time on nonentities. Looks like I was way late on this one. Good.

791 Yashmak  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:16:50pm

re: #788 Jimmah


My guess is that if Gore were to announce:

"Cyanide is a very toxic substance that is extremely harmful to the environment and should never - EVER - be sprinkled on breakfast cereal."

...there'd be a lot of 'AGW sceptics' found dead over their cheerios next morning.

Would it be considered 'mean-spirited' of me to suggest that this sort of exercise might be of benefit to actual meaningful debate on the topic?

I'm sceptical about the magnitude we're told humanity contributes to global warming myself. . .but I find your point valid. It's hard to be taken seriously on such things when there obvious loons standing next to you saying the same thing.

792 Zimriel  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:20:20pm

re: #385 ggt

"America won't be doomed just because of this creationist nonsense. It won't even hurt our economy."

A generation of children not educated to understand the basic scientific method won't hurt the country or the economy? Or do you think that a ignorant generation made ripe for a false messiah selling any snake oil is a good thing?

To be fair (and this is why I didn't downding him) Daryl did make a distinction between the short and long terms. Where he said something debatable was over the long term; but even there he hinted that it would likely cause more damage to the Republicans than to the country.

793 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:25:13pm

re: #790 Jimmah

[Video]

You're cruel. Heh.

794 Zimriel  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 12:26:31pm

As for "evolution's Big Bang", that's not a bad description of the Cambrian Explosion. It really was sudden as geologic spans go. I have Andrew Parker's book "In The Blink Of An Eye" which comments on that, and further proposes that it was the development of vision (independently in molluscs and annelids) that caused it, or more exactly caused the "arms race" between various forms of no-longer-blind predators and their prey.

Where the creationists are being dishonest is in twisting the words of geologists, that when they say "sudden" they mean it happened in six days.

795 hellosnackbar  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 1:29:53pm

I just discovered that this Mcleroy character is a member of the same profession as myself and feel a deep sense of shame.
How on earth did such an obvious third rater as this aquire such a position
(he's verging on the incoherent when he expresses himself).
I thought that Texans were of all Americans proud of a no BS
culture ,steeped in common sense.
This idiot redefines the concept of the Peter principle.
On the subject of Chris Hitchens nobody seems to have mentioned that his mother was Jewish(a fact he and his brother discovered when they were in their twenties).
Hitchens is posessed of a formidable intellect and his instant recall of history ,events and politics is awesome.
He will debate anyone at anytime and practically on almost any subject.
and always hold his own.
He makes his living as a professional polemicist and as far as I can gather
has few peers inthis respect.
He was in his younger years a dyed in the wool trot;but like many intelligent people he grew out of that(you should hear his former friends like Tariq Ali lamenting this fact).
He loves America and is now an American citizen.
Unless he drinks or smokes himself to death we'll all enjoy more of his "wicked pen".
A worthy successor to my favourite Amercan writer the almost inimitable
HL Mencken.

796 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 1:49:14pm

re: #794 Zimriel

As for "evolution's Big Bang", that's not a bad description of the Cambrian Explosion. It really was sudden as geologic spans go. I have Andrew Parker's book "In The Blink Of An Eye" which comments on that, and further proposes that it was the development of vision (independently in molluscs and annelids) that caused it, or more exactly caused the "arms race" between various forms of no-longer-blind predators and their prey.

Where the creationists are being dishonest is in twisting the words of geologists, that when they say "sudden" they mean it happened in six days.

Not exactly in an eyeblink; the span of the so-called 'Cambrian Explosion' is longer than the span between the extinction of the dinosaurs and now.

And I think that it was the advent of directable motility that allowed so many of the mutational species that possessed this trait to survive and prosper, as they had plenty of static or drifting food supplies to swim to, and no natural enemies. Later, when motile predators did develop, an arms race occurred.

I do concur with you concerning creationist dishonesty and deception regarding the Cambrian.

797 Salamantis  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 2:08:00pm

OT (kinda): one of the positions asserted in a past thread is that because humans evolved here just like any other species did, that our construction and pollution and resource depletion and species extinction are as natural as are ants building mounds, birds building nests, or beavers building dams, and so there is neither necessity nor point in attempting to alter such 'species bound' behavior.

I must take issue with this position, for this reason: whereas the animal activities I mention are instinctual and genetically based, humans have achieved the advent of self-conscious awareness, and our actions are no longer solely circumscribed by a nexus of genetic programming, past conditioning, and present stimuli, but instead may be reflectively abstracted, contemplated in advance, and freely chosen. Thus, unlike genetically, instinctually bound animals, which have no self-consciously aware and free choice in either the continuance or the cessation of their actions, we freely and consciously choose both our beneficial and our detrimental actions, and have the option of either continuing to choose to perform, or choosing to cease to continue to perform, any of them.

Since we possess this capacity for free choice that other species lack, it would well behoove us fullly inform ourselves as to our full array of choices and the likely consequences and ramifications of each, and to exercise our unique free choice capacity wisely.

798 Achilles Tang  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 2:08:56pm

I finally had time to watch the video. I think this man is sincere enough and not a Behe clone, but what is so mind boggling is that a professional in education, not research, can be so vain as to simply dismiss all those nice brilliant minds (his words) that he disagrees with.

Of course it is ignorance as much as vanity, but most people know what subjects they have limitations in and tend to defer to those recognized as experts.

Clearly he has no such limitations. I have to assume the governor of Texas is the same type, along with most of those who knew this when they voted for him.

799 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Mar 30, 2009 9:21:21pm

re: #436 Charles

That's it. I am NOT going to allow the defense of mass murder at my website. Ploome, you're out of here. Anyone else who thinks Baruch Goldstein is some kind of fucking hero, speak up now so I can block your account too.

Absolutely disgusting beyond belief.

Holy shit. Just for the record when that massacre happened, I and several hundred other Jews denounced it and held a vigil in college. I can not fathom when my fellow Jews look so far from Torah and say such things.


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