A Bill to Let Big Government Set Your Salary

US News • Views: 2,217

The House Financial Services Committee has approved new legislation that would allow the government to determine how much all employees of businesses that accept federal money should be paid—and it’s retroactive, allowing the government to void existing contracts and impose new terms.

And the government would also determine the “performance standards” by which employees would be evaluated.

Now, in a little-noticed move, the House Financial Services Committee, led by chairman Barney Frank, has approved a measure that would, in some key ways, go beyond the most draconian features of the original AIG bill. The new legislation, the “Pay for Performance Act of 2009,” would impose government controls on the pay of all employees — not just top executives — of companies that have received a capital investment from the U.S. government. It would, like the tax measure, be retroactive, changing the terms of compensation agreements already in place. And it would give Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner extraordinary power to determine the pay of thousands of employees of American companies.

The purpose of the legislation is to “prohibit unreasonable and excessive compensation and compensation not based on performance standards,” according to the bill’s language. That includes regular pay, bonuses — everything — paid to employees of companies in whom the government has a capital stake, including those that have received funds through the Troubled Assets Relief Program, or TARP, as well as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

The measure is not limited just to those firms that received the largest sums of money, or just to the top 25 or 50 executives of those companies. It applies to all employees of all companies involved, for as long as the government is invested. And it would not only apply going forward, but also retroactively to existing contracts and pay arrangements of institutions that have already received funds.

In addition, the bill gives Geithner the authority to decide what pay is “unreasonable” or “excessive.” And it directs the Treasury Department to come up with a method to evaluate “the performance of the individual executive or employee to whom the payment relates.”

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691 comments

1 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:42:51am

he Gov't has kinda already set my salary at zero these days.

2 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:42:54am
3 pink freud  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:43:12am

"Void contracts"

That sums up this administration nicely.

4 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:43:28am

My incentive plummets further everyday.

5 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:43:32am

The camels nose is being pushed farther into the tent. What makes people think that they will stop there?

6 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:43:51am

Now this, my friends, is truly frightening. We are no longer inching toward socialism, we are hurtling at breakneck speed.

7 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:43:53am

I'm sure the stockholders of these corporations are encouraged to learn that they will soon be managed with the same degree of efficiency and effectiveness as the federal government.

/NOT!

8 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:44:41am
The new legislation, the “Pay for Performance Act of 2009,” would impose government controls on the pay of all employees — not just top executives — of companies that have received a capital investment from the U.S. government.

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

9 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:44:46am

re: #1 Ojoe

"T"he

PIMF

10 pink freud  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:44:49am

re: #5 BlueCanuck

It seems that "people" don't really care. The libs I know, for some reason, are tickled teh 0ne.

11 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:44:55am

I hope they set my salary high enough to cover all the taxes they're going to impose on me.

12 Golem Akbar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:03am

I wonder how many bankers and employees of financial institutions supported BHO? And how many support him, now?

13 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:20am

Communist motherfuckers...

14 Mike in Georgia  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:34am

It used to be government of the people, for the people, and by
the people. Now it's government versus the people.

15 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:38am

And who will be determining the salaries of the congress? Who will be watching the watchers?

16 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:39am

Yeah, because we all know that government employee's pay is based on performance.

/

17 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:47am

The government will establish the performance standards?
What could go wrong, they set the standards for the postal employee that can't find your house & the TSA screener that tosses grannies meds.

18 redstateredneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:52am

There is no line they will not cross.

19 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:55am
20 FrogMarch  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:45:57am

When will big daddy government come for your job?

21 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:46:06am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

Less, because we can count their benefits and money from lobbyists as "tips".

22 red satellite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:46:07am
And the government would also determine the “performance standards” by which employees would be evaluated.

Children, this is what's known as IRONY.

23 SlartyBartfast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:46:14am
...prohibit unreasonable and excessive compensation and compensation not based on performance standards...[and] gives Geithner the authority to decide what pay is “unreasonable” or “excessive.” And it directs the Treasury Department to come up with a method to evaluate “the performance of the individual executive or employee to whom the payment relates.”

Unbelieveable! This is wrong in so many ways I don't even know where to start!

24 Golem Akbar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:46:15am

Next stop: MBA brain drain from the US to ...?..?

25 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:46:17am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

Why pay minimum wage? They do a worse job than the local kid manning the counter of the fast food chain.

26 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:46:43am

re: #14 Mike in Georgia

It used to be government of the people, for the people, and by
the people. Now it's government versus the people.

Ten thousand updings.

27 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:46:52am

OT: been gone for 10 days. This new auto comments button is great!

28 calvin coolidge  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:47:07am

If you're looking for the US Constitution perhaps you should check the local garbage dump.

29 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:47:23am

wow. Is the United Socialist States of America no longer just a joke?

30 claire  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:47:29am

If you are considered worthless, you will be "asked" to leave.

And what if you are considered invaluable? Will they threaten you with prison if you decide to quit or retire?

Atlas Shrugged in real-time.

31 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:47:35am

re: #15 jill e

And who will be determining the salaries of the congress? Who will be watching the watchers?

We certainly can't call the Watchmen, can we?

32 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:48:05am

So, does this move preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States?

33 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:48:06am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

Great idea!

Lets' knock 'em down to part time and take away their healthcare, too.

34 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:48:29am

re: #30 claire

If you are considered worthless, you will be "asked" to leave.

And what if you are considered invaluable? Will they threaten you with prison if you decide to quit or retire?

Atlas Shrugged in real-time.

Nobody is "invaluable" except for The 0ne.

35 Dominic Yeso  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:48:42am

Congress is out of control. Its time for constitutional revision to put some reins and a bit on them.

36 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:48:45am

Does this "BILL" include UNION wages?

Lets do the math here. Unions by and large support the Dems. Dems want this bill!

ANSWER TO MY QUESTION ABOVE


NO

37 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:48:52am

re: #31 Macker

We certainly can't call the Watchmen, can we?

I thinking letting the Comedian loose on Congress would be worth it.

38 jdog29  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:48:54am

Where did America go?

39 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:02am

re: #28 calvin coolidge

If you're looking for the US Constitution perhaps you should check the local garbage dump.

BHO touts himself as a Constitutional scholar, but he has such little respect for the document.

40 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:12am

They're also looking to tax health care benefits while pushing for universal health care coverage. These people are so far out of touch—Democrat, Republican...it really doesn't matter any more.

41 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:16am

re: #30 claire

If you are considered worthless, you will be "asked" to leave given a euthanasia kit.

FTFY

42 Emperor Norton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:21am

Contracts, wages, and compensation will all be closely monitored by the Ministry of Plenty.

43 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:27am

Not Just No but HELL NO!

44 Mike in Georgia  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:32am

re: #26 Irish Rose

Thank you.

45 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:36am

it will be interesting to see what Standards the feds set for the NEA

46 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:47am

re: #32 tfc3rid

So, does this move preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States?

It sure takes away individuals of The Right To Pursue Happiness!

47 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:54am

re: #39 opnion

BHO touts himself as a Constitutional scholar, but he has such little respect for the document.

It seems like every day, the Obama Government and Congress take a nice dump all over the Constitution...

48 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:55am

Oh, good grief!
There are many state governments that receive federal $. Are the feds going to set state public employment pay levels too?

And doesn't Congress pay itself with federal $?

Shall we expect a cap on congressional pay?

I will not hold my breath.

49 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:56am

re: #35 Dominic Yeso

Congress is out of control. Its time for constitutional revision to put some reins and a bit on them.

All you have to do is throw them all out. Every 2 years you got a chance. it really ain't that difficult.

50 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:49:57am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

And make them wear shirts with their names embroidered on them.

51 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:50:01am

re: #24 Golem Akbar

Next stop: MBA brain drain from the US to ...?..?

Canada? New Zealand? And it won't be just MBAs.

52 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:50:07am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

Are they even worth that much?

53 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:50:19am

re: #42 Emperor Norton

Contracts, wages, and compensation will all be closely monitored by the Ministry of Plenty.

AKA the Internal Revenue Service ...

54 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:50:29am

re: #31 Macker

We certainly can't call the Watchmen, can we?

No.

55 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:50:50am

re: #46 sattv4u2

It sure takes away individuals of The Right To Pursue Happiness!

Happiness is selfish.
/

56 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:50:52am
57 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:12am

re: #49 Nevergiveup

All you have to do is throw them all out. Every 2 years you got a chance. it really ain't that difficult.

Not when they are running unopposed.

58 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:18am

re: #45 albusteve

see my #36

59 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:21am

Mao established the "Iron Rice Bowl" policy in China (guaranteed jobs for every single person).

Obama is trying to implement the "Ironic Retro Bailout" policy.

But seriously, this is yet one more step toward turning us all into those drooling government slave-minions in that 1984 Macintosh ad.

60 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:29am

re: #51 Leonidas Hoplite

Canada? New Zealand? And it won't be just MBAs.

Exactly. Canada's just a short car ride across a river for some of us.

61 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:33am

re: #48 reine.de.tout

The Teachers' Unions are going to love this.

62 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:35am

re: #51 Leonidas Hoplite

Canada? New Zealand? And it won't be just MBAs.

Paraguay, I keep telling anybody who'll listen, Paraguay.

63 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:35am

The Supreme Court could not possibly find this Constitutional...

64 obscured by clouds  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:41am

This is great. Now that the companies that need quality leadership the most won't get it because no executive in his right mind would want to work for a company whose salaries are set by morons like Tim Geightner and Barney Frank. This is phase 2 the Obama Brain Drain. Phase one was election day.

65 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:41am

I was speaking with my mother this morning. She, my father (passed away - God rest his soul) and I escaped from Soviet oppression over 50 years ago. She is appalled at what she is seeing. This is not why they struggled to escape that tyranny and come to America for. She is deeply saddened by what she is seeing but more so because in her old age she knows that the real price will be paid not by her but by the younger generation, including me and her grandchildren.

66 KenJen  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:42am

Pay for Performance Act of 2009--Does that apply to street mimes?

67 Killer Tomato  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:51:45am

At what point will all federal monies get included?

Stimulus funds went to states.
States issued contracts to construction companies to build roads and bridges.
Federal government gets to set the salary of the construction company's receptionist?

How far will this go?

68 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:07am

Very frustrating day. Thread about Obama Cult, thread about Taliban threatening DC, info about Chinese kill weapon, NK, and now this.

And I can't engage in a wee bit of ODS.

Poop.

*plops in chair with a huff* *crosses arms* *sticks out lower lip*

69 spinoneone  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:14am

Well, any of you who voted for the o should now be beginning to see what you bought into. The National Socialist Democratic Party is moving rapidly to close a bunch of deals it made with its left-wing friends and contributors. By the time they are done we will be the United Marxist States of America. The current Constitution will be a scrap of paper.

70 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:20am

NEW YORKERS

TODAY is the day to elect Hillary Clinton's replacement in New York's 20th congressional district.

Mr. Tedisco (R) is running against a Mr. Murphy (D) for the seat vacated by Ms. Gillibrand.

PLEASE vote today, or call any New Yorkers in that district.

71 RaiderDan  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:22am

It just got suddenly very cold in the room. I don't know why...

72 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:28am

re: #30 claire

If you are considered worthless, you will be "asked" to leave selected to be a pioneer in the zero carbon footprint program.

73 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:31am

Glenn Beck interviewed Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal on his March 30 broadcast. But, the radio and TV host took the opportunity to tell Blumenthal what he thought of his investigation into the bonuses received by American International Group (AIG) executives - whose company received federal bailout money.

"Look, you know what you have done, know what you have done?" Beck said. "You have - you are an insult to George Washington, sir. George Washington made it very clear that we are a respecter of laws, not of men. For your own political gain, you have decided to go after these people at AIG because it is a popular thing."

Beck pressed on, demanding to know what law the AIG executives broke that warranted Blumenthal's involvement.

"And while I may agree with you that it is obscene, I would like to know, is not what's right as a rule of thumb - not what makes us feel good," Beck continued. "You, sir, are to protect people and, and to stand for the law in Connecticut, so, again, I ask you, sir - what law gave you the right to go after them? What law did they break?"

Blumenthal claimed the AIG executives were "undeserving" of the bonuses. Blumenthal also pointed out the bonuses paid out were to increase next year. However, Beck pressed Blumenthal on the legality of that and Blumenthal came up blank in this exchange:

BECK: Is that against the law?

BLUMENTHAL: Well, it is against public policy. And it is unsanctioned by law.

BECK: Is that against the law?

BLUMENTHAL: It should be against the law.

BECK: Is it against the law?

BLUMENTHAL: It's against the public policy and against the taxpayer...In my view it is unrequired by law.

BECK: It is a yes or no question. Counselor, it is a yes or no question. Is it against the law?

BLUMENTHAL: It is not against the law and I have never said that it is against the law, and I have never said that we would bring an action.

BECK: Then you know what you should do? You should enforce the law. You shouldn't use your bully pulpit to gain popularity.

After another exchange over Blumenthal's behavior, Beck likened Blumenthal and New York State Attorney General Andrew Cuomo to a "vampire," accusing him of capitalizes on a populist sentiment.

"You are twisting it," Beck said. "It has everything to do with the excuse that AIG used to say we had to do that. And you're exactly right - it has nothing to do with that. But that has nothing to do with the little vampire fangs that you all of a sudden sprouted and tried to grab on to - to make yourself, you and Andrew Cuomo, tried to make yourselves the king of the world, and look at me - I'm the savior here. I'm going to help everybody, the little people. All you're doing is trying to make yourself look good in a populist move. I think it's wrong."

74 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:35am

re: #66 KenJen

Pay for Performance Act of 2009--Does that apply to street mimes?

We don't know. They haven't said a word about it

75 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:35am

re: #63 tfc3rid

The Supreme Court could not possibly find this Constitutional...

Wait till you see Obama's nominees to come?

76 MikeAlv77  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:36am

And so ends the great American experiment, not with a roar but a wimper. With no great masses of people complaining and rioting but gladly walking into the dark night...

Trying to stay positive but all this shows me its getting harder to...

77 FrogMarch  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:44am

Not to worry- big Labor is going to kill off New York. Big Labor and their butt buddies the democrat party are going to ruin as much of the private sector as possible. The blood suckers need a host.

the death of the free market is near.

78 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:48am
79 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:52:51am

re: #63 tfc3rid

The Supreme Court could not possibly find this Constitutional...


Depends who is on the court.

80 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:53:15am

because Barney Frank cares/

81 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:53:17am

re: #59 zombie

Mao established the "Iron Rice Bowl" policy in China (guaranteed jobs for every single person).

Obama is trying to implement the "Ironic Retro Bailout" policy.

But seriously, this is yet one more step toward turning us all into those drooling government slave-minions in that 1984 Macintosh ad.

82 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:53:27am

Wow....so between this and Card Check, I foresee a bright and robust economy around the corner.

/over in PRC China

83 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:53:29am

re: #59 zombie

Mao established the "Iron Rice Bowl" policy in China (guaranteed jobs for every single person).

Obama is trying to implement the "Ironic Retro Bailout" policy.

But seriously, this is yet one more step toward turning us all into those drooling government slave-minions in that 1984 Macintosh ad.

I'm more of a Harry Tuttle type myself

84 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:53:45am

re: #59 zombie

But seriously, this is yet one more step toward turning us all into those drooling government slave-minions in that 1984 Macintosh ad.

We'll be forced to watch a video of President Bush '43 for two minutes every day?

85 samsgran1948  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:53:47am

re: #24 Golem Akbar

Next stop: MBA brain drain from the US to ...?..?

Golem: You've hit the nail on the head. The federal government has essentially "nationalized" business management.

That machine gun sound we hear is the noise of every lower, middle and upper manager pushing the "send" button on his or her computer as they send their resumes out to the world. The next round of machine gun fire will be the sound of hundreds of thousands of managers "sending" their two week notices to Obama.

86 shane  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:53:52am

Was this the change the Obama cult was pining for? Put a man in charge of salaries who ran a prostitution ring out of his office? Oh, sorry. It was his boyfriend who ran the prostitution ring out of his office, Barney didn't know it was happening.

87 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:18am

re: #63 tfc3rid

re: #75 Nevergiveup

re: #79 Leonidas Hoplite

Looking at the court, I don't foresee any "conservatives" retiring within 4 or even 8 years. If Obama gets to replace Ginsburhg with another Liberal, it's a zero sum game

88 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:19am

re: #73 jill e

Say what you will about Beck I listened to this interview... The CT AG said there is no law but there should be...

89 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:26am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I thinking letting the Comedian loose on Congress would be worth it.

Oh! The thought is too delicious for me. I'm going to stop thinking about it.

90 big steve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:39am

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......

91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:41am

The sheer speed at which this administration is implementing these far-left policies is truly breathtaking. I said before the election that Obama reminds me of Allende, a democratically elected Marxist who very quickly went about dismantling Chile's society & economy, and nothing has changed my mind since.

92 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:43am

re: #67 Killer Tomato

At what point will all federal monies get included?

Stimulus funds went to states.
States issued contracts to construction companies to build roads and bridges.
Federal government gets to set the salary of the construction company's receptionist?

How far will this go?

That's exactly what I predict (we discussed this on an earlier thread). Next step will be to get the Feds involved in making salaries "fair" for any company accepting a Fed government contract, or even (as you posit) indirectly accepting Fed money through a contract with a State.

93 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:44am

And in case any of you ever doubted the rank anti-semitism underlying the 9/11 "Truth" movement, here are two comments from today on my legendary "Liberal hot-head argues with Marines supporters in Berkeley" video:

FeatureLengthFilms
Look at these marines, so proud to be played by the Jews again. Jews killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and then blamed it on Arabs, these marines have never seen any proof (because there is none) and yet they are willing to kiss the feet of their "comander and cheif", Bush.

They are the real traitors because if they researched it, they would see that the Jews own the central bank (Federal Reserve) and we have to borrow $8,000 a second from the Fed (at interest) to fight "their" enemies.

FeatureLengthFilms
How come all you traitors are calling your fellow American "Liberals" and "Pussies" when you guys are the real pussies, too cowardly to ever mention that it is the Jews who have you little punks doing their dirty work for them. Look how quick you are to hate half the USA like the Jews taught you to do. If you really love America, why are you killing it's name worldwide like your Jewish puppet masters trained you to, grow some balls and stop selling out our country. Wake up and research the Jews.

94 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:54:49am

re: #77 FrogMarch

Not to worry- big Labor is going to kill off New York. Big Labor and their butt buddies the democrat party are going to ruin as much of the private sector as possible. The blood suckers need a host.

the death of the free market is near.

Gee I am glad I am in NJ. NY is going to tax anything that moves or breaths.

95 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:07am

re: #87 sattv4u2

re: #75 Nevergiveup

re: #79 Leonidas Hoplite

Looking at the court, I don't foresee any "conservatives" retiring within 4 or even 8 years. If Obama gets to replace Ginsburhg with another Liberal, it's a zero sum game

What's stopping him from adding two more judges to make it 11?

96 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:09am

re: #77 FrogMarch

Not to worry- big Labor is going to kill off New York. Big Labor and their butt buddies the democrat party are going to ruin as much of the private sector as possible. The blood suckers need a host.

the death of the free market is near.

The proposed FY 2010 budget for NY State is even more of an impetus for me to move from here... Too bad my family will never leave...

97 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:11am

re: #90 big steve

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......

If they want anything they better hurry - there's not much left!

98 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:14am

re: #87 sattv4u2

re: #75 Nevergiveup

re: #79 Leonidas Hoplite

Looking at the court, I don't foresee any "conservatives" retiring within 4 or even 8 years. If Obama gets to replace Ginsburhg with another Liberal, it's a zero sum game

Maybe but shit happens.

99 ConservativeAtheist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:17am

Anybody taking bets for how long it takes them to consider a similar bill for ALL companies, regardless of whether they have taken TARP funds or not?

100 AG in Houston  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:26am

Uh, that wouldn't be good.

101 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:36am

re: #93 zombie

He spelled Joooz wrong

/

102 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:44am

This is not good.

103 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:44am

re: #90 big steve

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......

Yep, they'll be coming for those. Plus, anything else you have in the bank that you aren't using right now.

104 capitalist piglet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:45am

re: #91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The sheer speed at which this administration is implementing these far-left policies is truly breathtaking. I said before the election that Obama reminds me of Allende, a democratically elected Marxist who very quickly went about dismantling Chile's society & economy, and nothing has changed my mind since.

They know they may only have until 2010. There are a lot of changes - big changes - they want to make.

105 shane  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:46am

To #8 Krager

Minimun wage, that's how we say "we would pay you less but by law we can't".

106 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:02am
107 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:09am

re: #27 Creeping Eruption

OT: been gone for 10 days. This new auto comments button is great!

The auto comments button has 60 days to make a deal with Fiat, or it will be eliminated.

-BHO

108 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:16am

re: #87 sattv4u2

Pray for the good health of every Conservative member of the Supreme Court while Оба́ма is in the Oval Office.

109 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:18am

I heard a clip this morning where Obama said that car manufacturer warranties would be backed up by the Federal Government. Wasn't this one of the reasons the mortgage crisis happened, because the Federal Government backed up Fannie and Freddie, thus giving carte blanche to unsound mortgage schemes? I need to dust off my copy of the Constitution. The Founders certainly were precient men, obviously foreseeing the need for the Government to enure that power trains were protected with the full faith and backing of the US Government.
/

110 KenJen  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:26am

re: #74 sattv4u2

We don't know. They haven't said a word about it

Yeah. I guess it's not so black and white.

111 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:29am

re: #91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The sheer speed at which this administration is implementing these far-left policies is truly breathtaking. I said before the election that Obama reminds me of Allende, a democratically elected Marxist who very quickly went about dismantling Chile's society & economy, and nothing has changed my mind since.

But we're not allowed to criticize his motives.
It's not nice.

112 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:41am

re: #95 Leonidas Hoplite

What's stopping him from adding two more judges to make it 11?

requires a Constitutional Amendment. I don't envision 2/3 rds of the states going for that

113 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:43am

re: #69 spinoneone

Well, any of you who voted for the o should now be beginning to see what you bought into. The National Socialist Democratic Party is moving rapidly to close a bunch of deals it made with its left-wing friends and contributors. By the time they are done we will be the United Marxist States of America. The current Constitution will be a scrap of paper.

I felt that this is what they wanted all along when they pulled the lever for Hussein Dolt.

114 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:47am

re: #75 Nevergiveup

Wait till you see Obama's nominees to come?

I would not be surprised if he tries to resurrect FDR's Court policies.

115 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:51am

re: #77 FrogMarch

Not to worry- big Labor is going to kill off New York. Big Labor and their butt buddies the democrat party are going to ruin as much of the private sector as possible. The blood suckers need a host.

the death of the free market is near.

Will they be regulating the Unions to the same extent as private corporations? Why stop there?

116 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:56:54am

We should band together with some science fiction fans, move to some place like Belize, and make it insanely prosperous.

117 Golem Akbar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:57:01am

re: #101 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He spelled Joooz wrong

/


Juice!

118 seekeroftruth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:57:15am

This is unconstitutional and a huge power grab. The business community is going to need to step up and stop this.

119 SlartyBartfast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:57:30am

re: #90 big steve

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......

Our 401k's? Oh, that's rich. That's just hilarious. I'm laughing so hard that I'm starting to cry...

/////

120 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:57:36am

re: #62 Guanxi88

Paraguay, I keep telling anybody who'll listen, Paraguay.

Lefty government. Nope.

121 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:57:37am

re: #112 sattv4u2

requires a Constitutional Amendment. I don't envision 2/3 rds of the states going for that

Hey, the Constitution requires lots of things that no one seems to give a rat's scrotum about anymore.

122 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:57:47am

re: #90 big steve

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......

Pull 'em and buy foreclosed houses?

123 lostlakehiker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:57:48am

Pay is reasonable if a reasonable socially conscious person would conclude that you have contributed enough to society in return for your pay. Contributing to society can be achieved by work, by volunteering for People's causes, and by contributing to causes that further the interests of society...for instance, contributing to political campaigns, ACORN, etc.

Obstructing the advance of society by way of contributing to churches, food kitchens, and other operations that attempt to sever the ties binding the poor to the benevolent largess of the People's government would be an example of not being worthy of your pay. The People's pay board will decide who qualifies. Watch yourself. There are no rules. Just guidelines. Let your fear be your guide.

/O-team

124 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:06am

So, I'm guessing this means they'll be going after Soros's money pretty soon....

but I kid the Congress.

/

125 rollingdivision  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:11am

During the election campaign those of us who contended Obama wanted to enormously increase political control of the economy were castigated and ridiculed by the MSM. Turns out Obama DOES want to control most all businesses. "Strict regulation and control of the economy by the Obama administration through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed government regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under Obama's desired economic system, most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion." The public is in a fearful near panic and looking for stability, think 1930's.

126 FrogMarch  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:12am

Barney Frank is in charge.

127 essayons7  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:27am

It just keeps getting better, doesn't it?

Yikes.

128 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:27am

re: #116 Dianna

We should band together with some science fiction fans, move to some place like Belize, and make it insanely prosperous.

Count me in. I won't have to learn a new language if I move to Belize.

129 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:29am

re: #90 big steve

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......

Argentina's leftist government already took that step....

130 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:51am

re: #93 zombie

And in case any of you ever doubted the rank anti-semitism underlying the 9/11 "Truth" movement, here are two comments from today on my legendary "Liberal hot-head argues with Marines supporters in Berkeley" video:

Could you email me the IP address of that creep, please?

131 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:58:55am

Precient = prescient

PIMF

132 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:14am

re: #120 Occasional Reader

Lefty government. Nope.

Barely a government at all there, and no extradition treaties.

Show up, support yourself, and you're good to go.

133 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:15am

And this is from people who have never even run a Kook-Aid stand. Well, Frank did have a roomate who ran a gay prostitution ring, but other then that....

134 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:23am

Look at the wiki for Barney Frank's 4th Congressional District of MA. He won 98% of his district, virtually unopposed. The only opposition was write-in candidates.

Democracy in action.

135 MikeAlv77  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:34am

re: #90 big steve

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......

This is not far fetched. most companies match your 401k. So they can say the govt money "tainted" the 401K so they can touch it. This is getting downright scary...

136 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:37am

One thing is certain - this will cause another spike in gun and ammo sales.

137 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:42am

Since Democrats are sticking us with their bailout bill, they have in effect CUT our pay already--TAKEN our pay by fiat.

McCain calls it "generational theft" of your income.

Theft of income = setting your salary

138 Golem Akbar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:45am

re: #125 rollingdivision

During the election campaign those of us who contended Obama wanted to enormously increase political control of the economy were castigated and ridiculed by the MSM. Turns out Obama DOES want to control most all businesses. "Strict regulation and control of the economy by the Obama administration through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed government regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under Obama's desired economic system, most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion." The public is in a fearful near panic and looking for stability, think 1930's.

Who was it that said: socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.?

139 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:48am

re: #128 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Count me in. I won't have to learn a new language if I move to Belize.

Your resistance to learning a new language Belize your putative enthusiasm for moving abroad.

140 panda  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:59:49am

Here is the list of members of the house financial services committee. If you really care about this, start contacting the members of the committee:

[Link: financialservices.house.gov...]

141 ssn697  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:00:10am

Well, this should go smoothly. Can they vote themselves raises as well? How about if things still go bad? Can they blame the prior employees?

This also0 means they automatically can drop their productivity to about 30%, right?

142 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:00:12am

re: #126 FrogMarch

He's giving "don't ask, don't tell" a whole new meaning.

143 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:00:13am

Lets face it folks, by the time all these changes reach SCOTUS, some of it will stick no matter what happens. Obama and friends are dumping nearly everything they can think of on us quick so we can't react to it.

Most of this load will be declared unconstitutional, but it is going to take alot of time to do that, and some of it will stay.

144 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:00:24am

re: #138 Golem Akbar

Who was it that said: socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.?

Thatcher (paraphrased).

145 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:00:38am

re: #128 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Count me in. I won't have to learn a new language if I move to Belize.

I've met a young lady from Belize. She complained of the corruption.

I thought that was actually a great point for a sci-fi fan take-over.

146 BingoBunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:00:47am

The head of my local school district gets over 350 thousand dollars a year.. his wife gets about 250k theres a car allowance.. he was caught not paying taxes on houses he owns.. half of his relatives get a school district salary.. and he can barely speak english.. eubonics not included.

/pay for performance.. bet he would get a raise.

147 MikeAlv77  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:00:55am

re: #123 lostlakehiker

Pay is reasonable if a reasonable socially conscious person would conclude that you have contributed enough to society in return for your pay. Contributing to society can be achieved by work, by volunteering for People's causes, and by contributing to causes that further the interests of society...for instance, contributing to political campaigns, ACORN, etc.

Obstructing the advance of society by way of contributing to churches, food kitchens, and other operations that attempt to sever the ties binding the poor to the benevolent largess of the People's government would be an example of not being worthy of your pay. The People's pay board will decide who qualifies. Watch yourself. There are no rules. Just guidelines. Let your fear be your guide.

/O-team

Me thinks we just found your new job in the 0-man's socialist order.

148 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:01:00am

re: #104 capitalist piglet

They know they may only have until 2010. There are a lot of changes - big changes - they want to make.

* * * *
TODAY is election day in New York's 20th congressional district.

Send Pres. Obama a message TODAY, New Yorkers!

Send a vote of NO CONFIDENCE today, New YOrkers.

149 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:01:01am

re: #139 Occasional Reader

Your resistance to learning a new language Belize your putative enthusiasm for moving abroad.

Dude, Uruguay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

150 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:01:04am

This is absolutely shocking.

Next step is *ANY* employee who takes ANY gov't money for ANYTHING.

Guess what. . .nearly every physician takes Medicare, and many take Tricare (which is the VA health insurance policy).

151 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:01:07am

re: #90 big steve

clock's ticking on when congress goes after our 401K's and IRA's too......


I think the wife and I are going to have a serious conversation about that very thing this weekend. I suspect they are next in some shape or form.

152 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:01:14am

National Review is covering the latest Obama appointments. Really scarey. Obama is exactly who we thought he was. Personal freedoms are going fast (unless you are a criminal or a person of a protected skin color).

153 Viking6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:01:14am

I believe that this is just a smoke screen to do what they really want to do which is force Unions into non-Union businesses. If you look at the industry that has received the largest share of government monies they are financial institutions which by and large are non-union based. The operations areas of these banks, call centers etc. are non-union. These unions, such as the CWA (Communication Workers of America) has been trying for years to unionize many of these shops and has been unsuccessful. Now this will give them a real opening.

154 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:01:20am

Here is the irony. All of these bankers are Democrats. They asked for this. They created these bogus products. The bad loans were put in place by their toadies: Frank and Dodds. They paid off the pols to get regulatory cover. They employed Emanuel, Rubin, and the rest to keep Washington off their backs while they stole billions from savers, investors, pension funds, and other banks.

155 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:00am

The way the government has been doing and interpreting things lately this "we will determine what you are paid" would apply to any and ALL businesses simply because TARP/bailout/stimulus funds have filtered into the economy as a whole. This blatant and outrageous Communist grab, I can no longer sustain that it is merely Socialist, is so bold in its scope and openness.

156 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:00am

re: #137 alegrias

Since Democrats are sticking us with their bailout bill, they have in effect CUT our pay already--TAKEN our pay by fiat.

And then giving the rest away to FIAT.

157 capitalist piglet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:02am

re: #135 MikeAlv77

This is not far fetched. most companies match your 401k. So they can say the govt money "tainted" the 401K so they can touch it. This is getting downright scary...


Not only is it "not far-fetched", the plan to take over 401Ks has been in the works for months. It's already been in the news, and we have talked about it here.

158 planes86  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:06am

This is so wrong it hurts. I really wish people would wake up, but I expect by the time we get to vote again, most people won't have paid enough attention to care, and a lot of the ones that did will have forgotten.

159 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:20am

re: #138 Golem Akbar

Who was it that said: socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.?


Churchill?

160 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:20am

Does anyone really believe that this will stop with the companies receiving TARP money? Next they will say that any company that gets a government contract is subject to this ruling.

161 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:23am

re: #137 alegrias

Since Democrats are sticking us with their bailout bill, they have in effect CUT our pay already--TAKEN our pay by fiat.

McCain calls it "generational theft" of your income.

Theft of income = setting your salary

Its setting our KIDS salary.

My children are going to be paying for Obama's increased tax burden.

162 formercorpsman  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:31am

This dovetails with a post I made yesterday.

Folks, this is how they ideologues get around your constitutional rights. This is how they get around the laws.

Really think to yourself one minute here. Think of the web which the federal monies flow. There is literally not one industry in this country that can't be affected by this, and the folks who wish for this power grab know it.

Every time a politician opens their mouth about creating another program to benefit society, it is another wedge in your freedom.

Thank you Charles for posting this. Seriously, this is scary stuff.

163 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:35am

re: #132 Guanxi88

Barely a government at all there

In the hinterlands, maybe not. But the one that is there is pretty left-wing, if not Chavez-tastically so.

Be prepared for HOT weather, and an unsettling level of crime. On the plus side, they do know how to have a good time, and the chicas are quite nice.

164 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:37am
Since Democrats are sticking us with their bailout bill, they have in effect CUT our pay already--TAKEN our pay by fiat.

and in future inflation due to devalued dollar. If your 401(k) and other investments give you an annual return of 9%, but inflation is at 10%.......you get the idea.

165 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:40am

re: #66 KenJen

Pay for Performance Act of 2009--Does that apply to street mimes Congress?

Fixed.

166 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:02:42am

re: #133 Dave the.....

[Deleted]

167 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:12am
168 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:20am

re: #145 Dianna

I've met a young lady from Belize
She complained of the corruption [...]

That's the most incomplete dirty limerick I've ever seen.

169 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:29am

re: #160 Ford_Prefect

Does anyone really believe that this will stop with the companies receiving TARP money? Next they will say that any company that gets a government contract is subject to this ruling.

What about the banks - like Wells Fargo - that didn't want TARP money?!

170 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:30am

re: #157 capitalist piglet

Not only is it "not far-fetched", the plan to take over 401Ks has been in the works for months. It's already been in the news, and we have talked about it here.

If the Federal gov't starts touching peoples 401ks, there will be bullets flying.

That's how bad it will be.

171 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:35am

re: #130 Charles

Could you email me the IP address of that creep, please?

I'll try -- never traced a YouTube commenter's IP before. Give me a minute to figure it out.

172 Dominic Yeso  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:41am

re: #49 Nevergiveup

Yes, we certainly have the freedom to choose to do that, however in practice it doesn't work because of corruption (favors) that congress does to solicit special interest money. Limits on terms, compensation, Gerry Mandering, taxing authority, etc. may be our only hope to save our democracy.

173 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:43am

My company provide engineering design services for NY City. If we bid on a job that is fuinded as a result of the Stimulus, I guess that means we are covered under that as well...

I refuse to work on any project that would be a stimulus-funded job... I am not a socialist...

174 Pupdawg  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:47am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

...and immediately expect a letter of resignation from TOTUS!

175 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:03:57am

re: #163 Occasional Reader

In the hinterlands, maybe not. But the one that is there is pretty left-wing, if not Chavez-tastically so.

Be prepared for HOT weather, and an unsettling level of crime. On the plus side, they do know how to have a good time, and the chicas are quite nice.

So it's like Mos Eisley? Perfect for a sci-fan fan take-over!

176 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:00am

re: #168 Occasional Reader

That's the most incomplete dirty limerick I've ever seen.

Don't, OR. The last thing I need is an attack of the limericks.

177 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:06am

re: #109 LGoPs

I heard a clip this morning where Obama said that car manufacturer warranties would be backed up by the Federal Government. Wasn't this one of the reasons the mortgage crisis happened, because the Federal Government backed up Fannie and Freddie, thus giving carte blanche to unsound mortgage schemes? I need to dust off my copy of the Constitution. The Founders certainly were precient men, obviously foreseeing the need for the Government to enure that power trains were protected with the full faith and backing of the US Government.
/

* * * *
Yes, they "federalized" the RISK, but privatized the PROFIT at Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac.

Sucker taxpayers are the lenders of last resort, always stuck with the bill.

So Fannie Mae officials make big bucks and taxpayers got stuck with the TOXIC ASSETS, the Bad Asset Relief Fund (BARF bailout).

178 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:13am

re: #149 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Dude, Uruguay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I know you're just kidding around, so I won't get angry, I'll stay chile.

179 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:21am

The good news - this sure provides incentive for businesses to stay the hell away from asking the government for anything.

180 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:31am

re: #168 Occasional Reader

That's the most incomplete dirty limerick I've ever seen.

"There was a young lady from Kew
Whose lim'rick ended at line two."

"There was a young fellow from Dunn."

181 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:37am

re: #171 zombie

I'll try -- never traced a YouTube commenter's IP before. Give me a minute to figure it out.

Oh - I thought you meant it was on your blog. You probably can't get the IP from YouTube. Never mind.

182 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:45am

Not sure what got deleted from the person who responed to my post, but I will refrain from Barney Frank roomate references to prevent such a response.

183 claire  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:02am

re: #108 Macker

Pray for the good health of every Conservative member of the Supreme Court while Оба́ма is in the Oval Office.

Ooh, I like that Soviet spelling- Howdja do that?

184 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:04am

re: #73 jill e

The sad thing, jill, is that this is nothing new for the AG of my home state. Blumenthal is a disgrace and should have been replaced by our Republican Governor a long time ago. One of the local radio guys refers to him as the Eternal General because he never seems to go away. I don't get it. Every time this man sees something he doesn't like he attacks, whether there were any actual laws broken or not.

185 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:13am

re: #179 Racer X

The good news - this sure provides incentive for businesses to stay the hell away from asking the government for anything.

And also to provide for businesses who have taken the TARP funds to pay that shit back quickly!

186 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:26am

re: #170 looking closely

If the Federal gov't starts touching peoples 401ks, there will be bullets flying.

That's how bad it will be.

I thought it would be bailing out/subsidizing newspapers.

At least that was my threshold.

187 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:30am

re: #138 Golem Akbar

Who was it that said: socialism is great until you run out of other people's money.?

Maggie.

She knew a thing or two ...

188 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:33am

re: #181 Charles

Oh - I thought you meant it was on your blog. You probably can't get the IP from YouTube. Never mind.

Should be able to look up his user page and see more about him there though

189 Natasha  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:53am

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Union of Soviet Socialist States of AmeriKa. The "baliout" was just the beginning. It was merely bait, to pave way for a power grab from hell. As to the companies who accepted the "bailout"... Did they really think that money was "free" and no strings were attached?

190 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:57am
191 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:05:57am

Just fucking wrong and unacceptable, it's well past time to flush all of congress.

192 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:06:01am

re: #163 Occasional Reader

In the hinterlands, maybe not. But the one that is there is pretty left-wing, if not Chavez-tastically so.

Be prepared for HOT weather, and an unsettling level of crime. On the plus side, they do know how to have a good time, and the chicas are quite nice.

So, kinda like the area a little south of here, but with fewer people. Sounds like a place to be. You with their immigration ministry or something, because you just made one hell of a pitch for the place.

193 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:06:12am

re: #182 Dave the.....

Not sure what got deleted from the person who responed to my post, but I will refrain from Barney Frank roomate references to prevent such a response.

I self-deleted any vile response. My tongue hurts. BAD.

194 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:06:26am

re: #96 tfc3rid

The proposed FY 2010 budget for NY State is even more of an impetus for me to move from here... Too bad my family will never leave...

* * * *
Please get your family to VOTE for Mr. Tedisco the (R) candidate in New York's 20th congressional district, if they live there.

Tell Obama you have NO CONFIDENCE in his party.

195 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:06:55am

Madison Wisc: story last week on a rule that says any construction company that recieves stimulus funds, most pay it's bricklayers $62,000 a year. Without overtime (more with, of course).

Pretty good money for a skilled, but not overly skilled work. Wonder what the self-employeed person working 60 hours a week and making $35,000 a year thinks about that.

197 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:03am

re: #178 Occasional Reader

I know you're just kidding around, so I won't get angry, I'll stay chile.

You should be knighted. You're a suriname, if not in fact.

198 badger1970  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:08am

Why am I not surprised that Frank is trying to ramrod this up the American tail pipe? Why will I not be surprised that this shit goes through? Wow, I can't believe the confidence this administration has on no push back from the tar feathering committee.

The last few days of news just makes me want to eat cookies, watch MST3k and take my beagle for long walks.

199 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:12am

re: #130 Charles

Could you email me the IP address of that creep, please?

I can't figure out how to get his IP, but here's his YouTube account page.

200 yesandno  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:21am

I suggest we get on the phones, call the Congress and White House and let them know we will not tolerate this in any shape or form.

It is being shoved through the back door by that pillar of Congressional ethics, B. Frank (who is anything butt) and unless a large light is put on it, most people will never be aware of it 'till it is the law.

We can stop this....we have to...now.

201 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:27am

Livni: New government is bad for Israel

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I'm no fan of Bibi, but honey, bubbi, baby your government was no prize!

202 brookly red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:28am

re: #190 Iron Fist

/burning is much faster than bulding, no?.

203 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:29am

Seriously - I envision a mass exodus for the doors from big business. They will want nothing to do with this administration from now on.

And expect to see them acting with a little more restraint when it comes to executive compensation.

204 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:40am

Macker, heh, I get it now.

205 FrogMarch  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:46am

re: #93 zombie

And in case any of you ever doubted the rank anti-semitism underlying the 9/11 "Truth" movement, here are two comments from today on my legendary "Liberal hot-head argues with Marines supporters in Berkeley" video:

This should be e-mailed to everyone. Everyone should be made aware of what the anti-Semitic troofer movement looks like. It never fails to make my blood boil.

206 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:48am

re: #191 Thanos

Just fucking wrong and unacceptable, it's well past time to flush all of congress.

I know this has been hashed out here before, but WE NEED TERM LIMITS on these ***holes.

207 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:52am

re: #187 yma o hyd

Maggie.

She knew a thing or two ...

Knows- still with us ain't she?

208 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:54am

re: #192 Guanxi88

You with their immigration ministry or something, because you just made one hell of a pitch for the place.

No, but I've been there on business a few times. As a business trip, Asunción isn't bad. Not as much fun as Buenos Aires or Bogotá, but not bad.

209 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:07:57am

I've met a young lady from Belize
She complained of corruption disease
But when shown how Obama
would bankrupt her mama
She acknowledged a new level of sleaze

/gimme a break lunch is over

210 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:08:04am

re: #186 Fenway_Nation

I thought it would be bailing out/subsidizing newspapers.

At least that was my threshold.


Newspapers are small beer.

Its when the gov't reaches into the personal savings that YOU'VE been socking away for 20 years and/or changes the rules mid-game that things are going to get ugly.

That's not "generational theft", its just "theft".

211 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:08:08am

“Pay for Performance Act of 2009,” would impose government controls on the pay of all employees — not just top executives — of companies that have received a capital investment from the U.S. government.

Does this include anyone who has ever contracted with the gvmt for any purpose - from the staples people to the cheetos delivery guy at the federal prisons? Boeing to Hormel Spam?

This is one huge-ass door.

212 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:08:16am

re: #181 Charles

Oh - I thought you meant it was on your blog. You probably can't get the IP from YouTube. Never mind.

No prob.

YouTube is absolutely infested with the most vile and ignorant Jew-hating scum.

213 Right mind left  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:08:41am

re: #73 jill e

Glenn Beck interviewed Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal on his March 30 broadcast. But, the radio and TV host took the opportunity to tell Blumenthal what he thought of his investigation into the bonuses received by American International Group (AIG) executives - whose company received federal bailout money.

"Look, you know what you have done, know what you have done?" Beck said. "You have - you are an insult to George Washington, sir. George Washington made it very clear that we are a respecter of laws, not of men. For your own political gain, you have decided to go after these people at AIG because it is a popular thing."

Beck pressed on, demanding to know what law the AIG executives broke that warranted Blumenthal's involvement.

"And while I may agree with you that it is obscene, I would like to know, is not what's right as a rule of thumb - not what makes us feel good," Beck continued. "You, sir, are to protect people and, and to stand for the law in Connecticut, so, again, I ask you, sir - what law gave you the right to go after them? What law did they break?"

Blumenthal claimed the AIG executives were "undeserving" of the bonuses. Blumenthal also pointed out the bonuses paid out were to increase next year. However, Beck pressed Blumenthal on the legality of that and Blumenthal came up blank in this exchange:

BECK: Is that against the law?

BLUMENTHAL: Well, it is against public policy. And it is unsanctioned by law.


THE VIDEO OF THIS IS EXCELLENT:

[Link: msunderestimated.com...]

214 samsgran1948  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:09:07am

re: #145 Dianna

I've met a young lady from Belize. She complained of the corruption.

I thought that was actually a great point for a sci-fi fan take-over.

TNSTAFL!

215 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:09:24am

re: #212 zombie

No prob.

YouTube is absolutely infested with the most vile and ignorant Jew-hating scum.

Other than that ,,, it's fine!

///

"Yes Mrs. Lincoln, we know. But how did you like the play?"

216 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:09:29am

re: #197 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

You should be knighted. You're a suriname, if not in fact.

And I think you're a great Guy,ana swell friend to boot.

217 lurking faith  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:09:34am

re: #50 Who Watches the Watchmen?

And make them wear shirts with their names embroidered on them.

And little paper hats. Don't forget the little paper hats.

218 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:09:48am

re: #194 alegrias

* * * *
Please get your family to VOTE for Mr. Tedisco the (R) candidate in New York's 20th congressional district, if they live there.

Tell Obama you have NO CONFIDENCE in his party.

We're in the 12th District... 20th is up near Albany/Saratoga... My congressperson is Nydia Velazquez...

I got a letter from the Congresswoman the other day responding to my screed to her about the SAVE requirements... She said we are going to pass Comprehensive Immigration Reform and it will solve our issues...

219 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:09:52am

re: #210 looking closely

Newspapers are small beer.

Its when the gov't reaches into the personal savings that YOU'VE been socking away for 20 years and/or changes the rules mid-game that things are going to get ugly.

That's not "generational theft", its just "theft".

I will take my money and bury in the back yard at the dark of the moon before I tolerate that.

220 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:03am

re: #179 Racer X

The good news - this sure provides incentive for businesses to stay the hell away from asking the government for anything.


wont work. if this passes, there is not one manufacturing, milling, processing plant in the US which will not be affected.

221 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:09am

re: #216 Occasional Reader

And I think you're a great Guy,ana swell friend to boot.

Do you Botswanna cut it out now please?

222 rollingdivision  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:14am

Imagine the vast increase in power gained by the ruling party with all these new edicts.

Oh, you supported the Republican candidate but there is absolutely no connection between your giving money to a Republican and the fact the Treasury department declared your business critical, potentially too risk and has taken it over. BTW your compensation was deemed not to meet the just added performance standards for businesses with exactly 3.432 acres of land, 31 employees, gross of 2.348 million dollars and in business for 10 years 2 months 24 days. Just a coincidence. You and all your employees will need to refund 65% of your last 3 years compensation to the IRS. No connection though.

223 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:17am

re: #203 Racer X

Seriously - I envision a mass exodus for the doors from big business. They will want nothing to do with this administration from now on.

And expect to see them acting with a little more restraint when it comes to executive compensation.

Look for Canada to take advantage.....

224 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:18am

re: #214 samsgran1948

TNSTAFL!

TANSTAAFL!

/proper spelling. :)
//And yes the moon is a harsh mistress.

225 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:18am

re: #209 godfrey

I've met a young lady from Belize
She complained of corruption disease
But when shown how Obama
would bankrupt her mama
She acknowledged a new level of sleaze

/gimme a break lunch is over


Nice work!

226 dhg4  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:21am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So on a pay for performance basis, I take it that means we can pay Congress Minimum Wage.

This could be a great trade-off. Let your Congressperson know that you'd support the bill if he/she adds language to allow the public to set Congressional salaries by referendum!

227 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:22am

re: #214 samsgran1948

TNSTAFL!

Ahem!

TANSTAAFL!

228 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:24am
229 Mike McDaniel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:34am

re: #154 pat

Here is the irony. All of these bankers are Democrats. They asked for this. They created these bogus products. The bad loans were put in place by their toadies: Frank and Dodds. They paid off the pols to get regulatory cover. They employed Emanuel, Rubin, and the rest to keep Washington off their backs while they stole billions from savers, investors, pension funds, and other banks.

That could be said of a lot of the very wealthy. They backed Obama in droves...and are finding out that if you support a socialist, you wind up getting a LOT poorer.

Unless, of course, you are at the VERY top. Then you get a LOT richer, since the Government will protect you and your ill-gotten gains. Kindly note that Obama's biggest backers were the wealthiest people in the country.

230 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:40am

re: #109 LGoPs

I heard a clip this morning where Obama said that car manufacturer warranties would be backed up by the Federal Government. Wasn't this one of the reasons the mortgage crisis happened, because the Federal Government backed up Fannie and Freddie, thus giving carte blanche to unsound mortgage schemes? I need to dust off my copy of the Constitution. The Founders certainly were precient men, obviously foreseeing the need for the Government to enure that power trains were protected with the full faith and backing of the US Government.
/

That's actually one kind of help that is a good idea, as if GM is near bankruptcy, no one with sense would buy cars where the warranty could be removed by the bankruptcy court, thus pushing GM out of business.
However, the help could simply be a way of assuring the public that their investments in cars would be protected by the same warranty they get now.

It is all the other stuff in running GM that is a bad idea.

231 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:43am

re: #216 Occasional Reader

Fortunately I'm oBoliviaus to the dirty implications of these puns. Par a guy, that's hard to admit.

232 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:56am

the things we should have said before

Just follow the link and read it.

233 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:10:56am

re: #217 lurking faith

And little paper hats. Don't forget the little paper hats.

"Hello, welcome to US Congress. My name is Nancy. Can I take your order?"

234 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:11:26am
In addition, the bill gives Geithner the authority to decide what pay is “unreasonable” or “excessive.” And it directs the Treasury Department to come up with a method to evaluate “the performance of the individual executive or employee to whom the payment relates.”

Personally, I evaluate Geithner's performance as unaccaptable based on the fact that he didn't even know that he has to pay his own taxes.

235 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:11:54am

re: #219 Dianna

I will take my money and bury in the back yard at the dark of the moon before I tolerate that.

If the sum is considerable, take it and leave the country with it (seriously).

Burying in the backyard (even proverbially) doesn't help you because the inevitable massive inflation that Obama's spending explosion will cause will erode all its value.

236 Rancher  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:11:58am

Micro-management of Amerika's businesses comrade. Did any of us before the election predict it would be this bad and were those predictions slammed down as alarmist conspiracies?

237 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:12:06am

re: #197 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

You should be knighted. You're a suriname, if not in fact.

By the way, Suriname is a great place for lying on your hotel bed, watching the ceiling fan turn overhead, and thinking "Paramaribo... shit. I can't believe I'm still in Paramaribo." Then get up, do some stoned tai chi, and punch the mirror.

238 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:12:10am

re: #207 Nevergiveup

Knows- still with us ain't she?

Partially only, unfortunately.
She suffers with senile dementia.
Its a huge loss and a huge pity.

239 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:12:20am

sadly, the loony friend I had lunch with the other day, who saddened me with her complete idiocy on these issues, will have absolutely no problem at all with the gov't setting salaries, overseeing "bonuses" - requiring performance indicators, etc.

240 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:12:26am

Back on topic -- didn't Obama just semi-nationalize the auto industry yesterday? I saw the headlines, but couldn't bring myself to read the articles.

Obama's pace and expertise at turning the U.S. into a socialist economy is making Hugo Chavez look like an amateur.

241 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:12:38am

re: #205 FrogMarch

This should be e-mailed to everyone. Everyone should be made aware of what the anti-Semitic troofer movement looks like. It never fails to make my blood boil.

I have no sound.

242 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:12:44am

For anyone that believes it can't happen here, it already is.

243 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:12:44am

re: #221 sattv4u2

Do you Botswanna cut it out now please?

Do you want a Bhutan the ass?

244 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:13:04am

re: #116 Dianna

We should band together with some science fiction fans, move to some place like Belize, and make it insanely prosperous.

OK, count me in.
But can we leave the real rabid trekkies behind? I don't mean those who like the shows; I do; I mean those who learn Klingon and actually speak it, for example.

245 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:13:14am

re: #156 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

And then giving the rest away to FIAT.

* * * *
Friends of Angelo alright! FIAT made an offer they couldn't refuse (no doubt).

246 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:13:18am

re: #230 Kosh's Shadow

Why is a Rabbi not allowed to shake a woman's hand?

247 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:13:37am

re: #221 sattv4u2

Do you Botswanna cut it out now please?

How much longer will this Congo on?

248 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:13:53am

re: #230 Kosh's Shadow

That's actually one kind of help that is a good idea, as if GM is near bankruptcy, no one with sense would buy cars where the warranty could be removed by the bankruptcy court, thus pushing GM out of business.
However, the help could simply be a way of assuring the public that their investments in cars would be protected by the same warranty they get now.

It is all the other stuff in running GM that is a bad idea.

You can still buy private insurance (ie third party service warranties) for cars.

Assuming the market actually were allowed to function, the risk of car malfunction/ GM bankruptcy and the cost of the necessary warranty service would be priced into the vehicles.

249 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:13:59am

re: #184 Ford_Prefect

The sad thing, jill, is that this is nothing new for the AG of my home state. Blumenthal is a disgrace and should have been replaced by our Republican Governor a long time ago. One of the local radio guys refers to him as the Eternal General because he never seems to go away. I don't get it. Every time this man sees something he doesn't like he attacks, whether there were any actual laws broken or not.

That idiot is constantly on the TV and radio. When we had that big row with Home Depot being built here in Montville he was constantly on the TV. Absolutely nothing wrong with the store being built there, but about 5 people started picketing the site and all hell broke loose. He is nothing but a media whore.

250 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:01am

re: #201 Nevergiveup

Livni: New government is bad for Israel

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

I'm no fan of Bibi, but honey, bubbi, baby your government was no prize!

She's just a sore loser.

251 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:04am

re: #220 Eowyn2

wont work. if this passes, there is not one manufacturing, milling, processing plant in the US which will not be affected.

They are all getting welfare?

252 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:05am

re: #237 Occasional Reader

By the way, Suriname is a great place for lying on your hotel bed, watching the ceiling fan turn overhead, and thinking "Paramaribo... shit. I can't believe I'm still in Paramaribo." Then get up, do some stoned tai chi, and punch the mirror.

You really should be writing travel books, OR.

253 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:09am

(( Charles))

Are you feeling any better today? I heard that you were down with the gunk.

254 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:09am

re: #240 zombie

Yes he did (that's the variant of "yes we can")...i wonder what he'll be nationalizing next -- the coal industry?

255 rollingdivision  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:12am

It's all about revenge, hatred and jealously. There are a very large plurality of people who fully support taking from their fellow citizens and crushing evil big businesses.

256 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:28am

re: #237 Occasional Reader

By the way, Suriname is a great place for lying on your hotel bed, watching the ceiling fan turn overhead, and thinking "Paramaribo... shit. I can't believe I'm still in Paramaribo." Then get up, do some stoned tai chi, and punch the mirror.

I'm not even going to ask how you know that.

257 Golem Akbar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:30am

re: #240 zombie

Back on topic -- didn't Obama just semi-nationalize the auto industry yesterday? I saw the headlines, but couldn't bring myself to read the articles.

Obama's pace and expertise at turning the U.S. into a socialist economy is making Hugo Chavez look like an amateur.

Ford Motors refused bailout money. The Big Three may be just the Big One, with Chrysler and GM belonging to the government.

258 Natasha  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:34am

re: #236 Rancher

Micro-management of Amerika's businesses comrade. Did any of us before the election predict it would be this bad and were those predictions slammed down as alarmist conspiracies?

Indeed, many people have, and yes, they were shouted down as tinfoil-hatters. Sorry, I can smell the rancid stench of socialism from miles away, and that particular rotten corpse has been revived and unleashed on us, full force.

259 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:55am

re: #237 Occasional Reader

Porklips Now

260 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:57am

re: #249 JohnnyReb

That idiot is constantly on the TV and radio. When we had that big row with Home Depot being built here in Montville he was constantly on the TV. Absolutely nothing wrong with the store being built there, but about 5 people started picketing the site and all hell broke loose. He is nothing but a media whore.

And word is he will run for Governor nest. God help us.

261 baier  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:57am

I know I may sound green or naive, but I just never imagined something like this would happen. I just thought it could never happen...
The government is out of control.

262 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:15:02am

re: #235 looking closely

I know. I'm getting frantic about this.

I already know that, since I'm in my 40's, that I'm doomed. People who are older have other assets, and people who are younger can recover or work around the consequences of the current madness. But people between 40 and 50? We're screwed. My main asset is plummeting in value, and the government is determined that it will not recover. My retirement account is augering in, leaving a smoking hole, assuming it's not stolen by the Feds.

I don't have time to recover.

264 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:15:17am

re: #228 jill e

And how will they regulate THESE types of earnings?

He's a politician - he's entitled to keep everything.
Untaxed, natch.

265 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:15:18am

re: #254 J.S.

Yes he did (that's the variant of "yes we can")...i wonder what he'll be nationalizing next -- the coal industry?

He'll just close that one down outright. With the coal industry, goes our steel industry.

266 Idle Drifter  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:15:43am

Oh, what the hell is going on! I must have been bonked on the head and woke up in bizzarro world. It tastes like socialism.

267 brookly red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:15:51am

re: #254 J.S.

Yes he did (that's the variant of "yes we can")...i wonder what he'll be nationalizing next -- the coal industry?

fast food...
"have it our way"

268 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:15:52am

re: #257 Golem Akbar

Ford Motors refused bailout money. The Big Three may be just the Big One, with Chrysler and GM belonging to the government.

Will government produced cars only go in reverse?

269 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:10am

re: #262 Dianna

I know. I'm getting frantic about this.

I already know that, since I'm in my 40's, that I'm doomed. People who are older have other assets, and people who are younger can recover or work around the consequences of the current madness. But people between 40 and 50? We're screwed. My main asset is plummeting in value, and the government is determined that it will not recover. My retirement account is augering in, leaving a smoking hole, assuming it's not stolen by the Feds.

I don't have time to recover.

Here's your suicide kit ...

/MEGASARC

270 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:10am

re: #261 baier

I know I may sound green or naive, but I just never imagined something like this would happen. I just thought it could never happen...
The government is out of control.

It's not out of control. It is in the control of people whose goals differ from yours (and mine.)

271 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:20am

re: #244 Kosh's Shadow

OK, count me in.
But can we leave the real rabid trekkies behind? I don't mean those who like the shows; I do; I mean those who learn Klingon and actually speak it, for example.

"I'd drive a week to bitch-slap a Trekkie." - Fanboys

272 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:22am

re: #232 Kenneth

That's good stuff. Let at least their names be acknowledged here: Sgts. Mark Dunakin, 40, Erv Romans, 43, Daniel Sakai, 35, and Officer John Hege, 41.

Prime of life.

273 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:25am

It actually seems reasonable to me. The amount of federal bailout money given out is enormous. If you take 3 trillion dollars and divide it by 300 million, the approximate number of US citizens, it means that each of us, every man, woman and child, is on the hook for $10,000. I, for one, want some say in how my $10,000 will be used by the companies that have been so mismanaged that they would be bankrupt without this bailout money.

This is a key point- these companies all claimed that they would be bankrupt without the federal money, and then the entire US economic system would be in ruins. Had they gone bankrupt, then all those contracts that 'conservatives' seem so worried about would be so much toilet paper. Did it offend your conservative sensibilities to have the government interfere in the free market with bailout money? If you could swallow that, then swallow the government control that comes with it. If a private company had infused that much money into AIG, they would surely be able to call a lot of the shots- if they hadn't taken over AIG completely.

In our government, one "of, by and for the people", there is no monarch, no ruler, no "them". It is, ultimately, only "Us". If our President and Congressmen do not govern well on our behalf, then we can and should hold them accountable, and ultimately vote them out. I think that the original TARP legislation was wantonly inept, if it gave away so much with so little oversight and control.

I don't think that President Obama has an easy job. I don't think President Bush did either. I deplored the histrionics aimed at Bush and I deplore them aimed at Obama. Government strong-arming US industry is nothing new. Industry taking advantage of loopholes leading to excesses is nothing new.

Our system oscillates, at time swinging toward deregulation and increased free market economy, at times swinging toward increased regulation and control. The excesses of one invariably lead to a public cry for the other, which then creates a new set of excesses which leads to a reversal. Get used to it.

Lets cut everyone a little slack. Six months or one year from now we'll see if we are on the road to hell, as so many commenters seem to think, or, mine own take, it is much ado about nothing.

274 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:25am

Okay law lizards, so isn't this a bill of attainder? I thought those were a no-no?

275 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:27am

re: #244 Kosh's Shadow

OK, count me in.
But can we leave the real rabid trekkies behind? I don't mean those who like the shows; I do; I mean those who learn Klingon and actually speak it, for example.

The mind-set could come in handy, though.

276 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:28am

re: #243 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Do you want a Bhutan the ass?

Oman... why don't you try it, you jive Turkey. I'll let my .45 do the talkin'. "BANG! (cock)" will be the last sound you hear.

277 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:33am

re: #268 Nevergiveup

Will government produced cars only go in reverse?

The question is, will they ever go forward.

278 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:33am
279 Last Mohican  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:37am

re: #196 capitalist piglet

This was telegraphed even before the election:

Sen. Barack Obama's Democratic allies in Congress are looking into a radical new plan that would fundamentally change the way Americans save for retirement. House Democrats recently heard testimony on the idea and, under a potential Obama administration, would likely move to put it in place. Democrats want to seize the money that workers currently invest in their 401(k) plans and replace the popular retirement savings accounts with a one-size-fits-all government sponsored retirement account. Under the scheme, Americans would be forced to transfer all of their hard earned retirement savings from their 401(k) to the government.

Great. Wonderful. I worked my ass off for that 401(k) money. I've already lost half of it, because some punks on Wall Street couldn't live with just ONE Ferrari, and because Barney Frank wanted his boyfriend to get rich. Now I've gotta loan Obama the other half, so that he can give it to Hamas, or do whatever the hell else he wants with it. And maybe he'll pay me half a percent interest for my trouble, if he feels like it.

I think this is a good time to say to all those people who abstained from voting, because they thought McCain wasn't conservative enough, I hope you're fucking happy now.

And on this occasion, I think I'll cc: that remark to the other people, the ones who voted for Obama, because they were hoping he might "govern from the middle."

280 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:40am

re: #5 BlueCanuck

The camels nose is being pushed farther into the tent. What makes people think that they will stop there?

We're already a lot further than the nose ... the first hump is in the tent...

281 pegcity  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:16:59am

Obama makes the federal canadian NDP party look right wing

282 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:17:03am

So, let's see...

Nationalized the banks
Implementing socialized medicine
Government setting all salary levels
Taxpayers forced to invest in failing businesses
Starting to nationalize the auto industry
...help me out here, I'm blanking out on the rest...

Yep, Obama is on the socialism fast track. No longer any doubt.

283 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:17:20am

re: #262 Dianna

I know. I'm getting frantic about this.

I already know that, since I'm in my 40's, that I'm doomed. People who are older have other assets, and people who are younger can recover or work around the consequences of the current madness. But people between 40 and 50? We're screwed. My main asset is plummeting in value, and the government is determined that it will not recover. My retirement account is augering in, leaving a smoking hole, assuming it's not stolen by the Feds.

I don't have time to recover.

All I can say is that its likely that much of Obama's damage will be reversible, though it may take 1-2 decades to neutralize most of it

Also, FWIW, Obama's is burning through his political capital nearly as fast as he's spending your tax money. The way things are going he's going to end up a lame duck fairly shortly.

285 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:17:48am

re: #277 BlueCanuck

The question is, will they ever go forward.

If you get out and push

286 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:17:52am

re: #278 buzzsawmonkey

I think we should look at the root macawses.

Polly not a good idea.

287 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:01am

re: #257 Golem Akbar

Ford Motors refused bailout money. The Big Three may be just the Big One, with Chrysler and GM belonging to the government.

For now... prediction: Ford will be forced to take the money...

288 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:07am
289 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:08am

re: #262 Dianna

I know. I'm getting frantic about this.

I already know that, since I'm in my 40's, that I'm doomed. People who are older have other assets, and people who are younger can recover or work around the consequences of the current madness. But people between 40 and 50? We're screwed. My main asset is plummeting in value, and the government is determined that it will not recover. My retirement account is augering in, leaving a smoking hole, assuming it's not stolen by the Feds.

I don't have time to recover.

I don't either.

290 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:09am

The more Congress and O do to "transform" America to their vision the more I see the world of Brazil.

291 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:10am

re: #259 Kenneth

That is the funniest thing I have seen in the past 3 hours!

292 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:20am

re: #274 joncelli

Ugh. Not a bill of attainder, an ex post facto law. You knew what I meant.

293 opinionated  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:29am

Boy am I stupid.

I didn't expect out- right Communism until Obama's second term.

294 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:31am

The House Financial Services Committee has approved new legislation that would allow the government to determine how much all employees of businesses that accept federal money...

Call me crazy, but there may be a ray-of-sunshine in this article.....this means that NO private company will accept money from the Obama Administration again, because this will be the result..

295 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:35am

re: #260 Ford_Prefect

And word is he will run for Governor nest. God help us.


Actually I heard from a friend that he is waiting to see how badly Dodd goes down in flames. He is eying a Senate seat now they think.

296 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:44am
297 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:47am

re: #239 reine.de.tout

sadly, the loony friend I had lunch with the other day, who saddened me with her complete idiocy on these issues, will have absolutely no problem at all with the gov't setting salaries, overseeing "bonuses" - requiring performance indicators, etc.

Even if you told them it could happen to their job, they'll say, "It will never happen to me." The only way for eyes to be opened is for it to happen to them.

298 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:18:57am

re: #287 markx

For now... prediction: Ford will be forced to take the money...

... by the UAW. Sheesh! If this was the plot of a movie you'd walk out on it!

299 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:19:15am

re: #273 rsdavis

Get used to it.

Thanks, I'll pass.

You have a lot of faith in the pendulum. Sorry, but the pendulum just swung so hard, it may have broken loose and crushed us.

No country is immortal.

300 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:19:30am

re: #273 rsdavis

I disagree.

301 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:19:31am

re: #259 Kenneth

Porklips Now

Very clever!

302 jdog29  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:19:32am

"Four legs good, two legs better."
"Four legs good, two legs better."
"Four legs good, two legs better."

303 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:19:36am

re: #206 Ford_Prefect

I know this has been hashed out here before, but WE NEED TERM LIMITS on these ***holes.

** * * *
JUST WIN ONE for the Gipper today in New York's 20th Congressional District race TODAY!

Start TODAY. Quit whining. Turn out ONE Obamabot today.

304 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:19:39am

re: #287 markx

For now... prediction: Ford will be forced to take the money...

I'll give Ford a lot of credit here. Back in the 1930s, when FDR got his National Industrial Recovery Act passed, creating the National Recovery Administration (NRA), Ford refused to belong to the NRA, and it drove FDR and Hough Johnston nuts.

305 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:19:44am

re: #282 zombie

...Creating several new layers of bureaucracy and massively increasing the number of government departments and employees...

306 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:20:03am

I'm starting to like this guy Obama. He is doing more to promote the comeback of Conservatism than anything the GOP is doing.

307 pegcity  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:20:13am

re: #282 zombie

how about taxing ammo to make it prohibitively expensive
whittling down the military to nothing

308 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:20:18am

re: #273 rsdavis

Did it offend your conservative sensibilities to have the government interfere in the free market with bailout money?


Yes it does.

Not one red cent of taxpayer money should be used to prop up these mismanaged companies. ZERO.

GM and its ilk should all be allowed to go bankrupt.

309 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:20:39am

re: #295 JohnnyReb

Actually I heard from a friend that he is waiting to see how badly Dodd goes down in flames. He is eying a Senate seat now they think.

That is partly why I hope that Dodd does run again. I don't think another Dem will run against him and hopefully he would lose the seat to a Republican or independent.

310 claire  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:20:45am

re: #195 Dave the.....

It isn't just stimulus money. In New Mexico we have to pay "prevailing wage" which is about double the market rate for labor on ANY construction contract that is building something for the governement, city, state or Federal. It's $27 an hour for a cabinet installer which is more than their bosses on salary make. Yeah, that goes over well. And, funny how the work SLOWS down when they are on the job to stretch it out. We have to keep records on what time they arrive at the job site, actually start doing carpentry work, not just unloading, etc to keep the damage at a minimum. There's about a 50 page stack of paperwork involved proving you paid your people the correct wage, etc. Total pain in the ass. Your gov't $$ at work.

311 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:20:54am
312 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:21:08am

re: #290 FurryOldGuyJeans

The more Congress and O do to "transform" America to their vision the more I see the world of Brazil.

And it's not the Adriana Lima kind, either. :(

313 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:21:10am

re: #246 Eowyn2

Why is a Rabbi not allowed to shake a woman's hand?

I think you replied to the wrong post, but you'll find this only for Orthodox and Chassidic men in general; modesty rules allow touching of adults of the opposite gender only for married people in the privacy of their bedroom.
Conservative and Reform don't obey these rules, and Reform seem to miss a lot of the others as well.

314 baier  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:21:20am

re: #273 rsdavis

You are an idiot, full stop.

315 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:21:37am

re: #308 looking closely

GM and its ilk should all be allowed to go bankrupt.

And face the wrath of unemployed union/Democrat voters!

Barney! Dahling, I have the vapors!

316 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:21:41am

re: #283 looking closely

I sure hope so, because I don't really have two decades to straighten things out. Not if I want to retire in a way that is something besides living frugally, and wearing threadbare little white gloves.

317 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:21:48am

re: #296 buzzsawmonkey

They'd just parrot back the same old lines, anyway.

they are just feathering their nests.

318 MikeAlv77  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:22:31am

re: #273 rsdavis

I did complain about when the companies took the money. NO one is too big to fail. They should have let the market correct itself. It would have done it better and faster than the govt...

319 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:22:37am

re: #294 Maximu§

The House Financial Services Committee has approved new legislation that would allow the government to determine how much all employees of businesses that accept federal money...

Call me crazy, but there may be a ray-of-sunshine in this article.....this means that NO private company will accept money from the Obama Administration again, because this will be the result..


As I mentioned earlier, EVERY hospital and doctor already take Federal money, because they all take Medicare.

Extrapolate (and you don't have to do this very far) and now you have gov't control over hospital administration AND physician salaries.

320 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:22:40am

re: #307 pegcity

how about taxing ammo to make it prohibitively expensive
whittling down the military to nothing

That may be unpopular and stupid, but it's not particularly connected to having a socialized economy. I'm trying focus specifically on what he has done to made our economy socialist, not the bigger picture of all the wrongheaded policies he's implemented.

321 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:22:44am

re: #262 Dianna

I know. I'm getting frantic about this.

I already know that, since I'm in my 40's, that I'm doomed. People who are older have other assets, and people who are younger can recover or work around the consequences of the current madness. But people between 40 and 50? We're screwed. My main asset is plummeting in value, and the government is determined that it will not recover. My retirement account is augering in, leaving a smoking hole, assuming it's not stolen by the Feds.

I don't have time to recover.

The wife and I are in the same boat. 50+ and lost over 50% of our 401k's. We are pretty much done and realize we will be working until we die.

322 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:22:50am

re: #296 buzzsawmonkey

They'd just parrot back the same old lines, anyway.

So it's bird puns, eh? Well, toucan play at that game.

323 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:22:51am

re: #283 looking closely

All I can say is that its likely that much of Obama's damage will be reversible, though it may take 1-2 decades to neutralize most of it

Also, FWIW, Obama's is burning through his political capital nearly as fast as he's spending your tax money. The way things are going he's going to end up a lame duck fairly shortly.

The Ryan Lief of Presidents, as one Lizard has termed him.

324 Josephine  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:23:06am

Has this ever been done by the United States government?

Is there a model anywhere that we can look at?

It sounds like union contracts in these companies (if any are unionized) would be rendered null and void but is that legal?

How can the government give the money without those strings attached and then later change the terms of the agreement?

In providing funding for these companies, did the U.S. become co-owners of them all? How else can they assume the right to nullify and rewrite employee contracts and evaluate job performance?

It's so weird because government-funded workplaces in Canada, at least, tend to be the most unionized and, therefore, the least dependent on workplace performance for setting salary ranges and raises.

The government would have to create a huge, expensive bureaucracy to administer this program.

I hope this bill doesn't pass.

325 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:23:15am

Anyone feel like arguing that these guys aren't communists today? Any takers?

326 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:23:37am

re: #296 buzzsawmonkey

They'd just parrot back the same old lines, anyway.

I don't know if I could swallow that........

327 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:23:41am

re: #273 rsdavis

What else should the gov't limit for bailed out companies? Vacation time? (That costs companies BILLIONS). Health insurance? Workers comp insurance?

CAMEL ,,,, NOSE ,, TENT!

328 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:23:46am

re: #319 looking closely

Ding ding ding

329 baier  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:23:46am

re: #318 MikeAlv77

Bravo.

330 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:23:51am

re: #304 Honorary Yooper

I'll give Ford a lot of credit here. Back in the 1930s, when FDR got his National Industrial Recovery Act passed, creating the National Recovery Administration (NRA), Ford refused to belong to the NRA, and it drove FDR and Hough Johnston nuts.

This is a different day, my friend. Obambi will make Roosevelt seem like a right-wing conservative by the time he's through.

331 pegcity  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:24:12am

re: #325 NukeAtomrod

red diaper babies the lot of em.

332 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:24:18am

"When small men begin to cast big shadows, it means that the sun is about to set." — Lin Yutang

333 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:24:27am

re: #287 markx

For now... prediction: Ford will be forced to take the money...

A number of the businesses which earlier happily took money from the government are now trying to return it, and being refused. O is going so far as trying to make them take MORE money so they are easier to nationalize.

Fidel and Hugo must be real pleased with Barry.

334 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:24:34am

re: #319 looking closely

As I mentioned earlier, EVERY hospital and doctor already take Federal money, because they all take Medicare.

Extrapolate (and you don't have to do this very far) and now you have gov't control over hospital administration AND physician salaries.

Jesus Christ, we are so screwed....Obama and his friends could'nt even run a Lemonaide stand.

335 opinionated  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:24:46am

re: #268 Nevergiveup

Will government produced cars only go in reverse?

think of the advantages.

You buy your car, get it serviced, get tags, get your driver's lisense, buy stamps, get a passport, etc all at the same place. A friendly IRS agent will be available too.

Get on line early.

336 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:24:51am

re: #319 looking closely

As I mentioned earlier, EVERY hospital and doctor already take Federal money, because they all take Medicare.

Extrapolate (and you don't have to do this very far) and now you have gov't control over hospital administration AND physician salaries.


Exactly.

337 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:13am

re: #334 Maximu§

Jesus Christ, we are so screwed....Obama and his friends could'nt even run a Lemonaide stand.

well,, they could ,, but would you really want a glass of it !?!?!?

338 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:15am

re: #335 opinionated

The GDR made cars out of cardboard. Think of the carbon savings! O joy!

339 Idle Drifter  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:24am

re: #279 Last Mohican

I moved my 401k to an IRA after a four digit loss. I'll give 4 to 1 odds that after the 401ks are sacked by the government IRAs and CDs will be next on the chopping block.

340 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:39am

re: #325 NukeAtomrod

Anyone feel like arguing that these guys aren't communists today? Any takers?

Yeah, where's Avanti?

341 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:45am

re: #326 LGoPs

I don't know if I could swallow that........

I have eaten crow many times....

342 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:49am

re: #107 Occasional Reader

Gahhh! I hate myself for laughing at that!

343 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:53am

re: #319 looking closely

As I mentioned earlier, EVERY hospital and doctor already take Federal money, because they all take Medicare.

Extrapolate (and you don't have to do this very far) and now you have gov't control over hospital administration AND physician salaries.


...and schools & universities. They all received Federal funds.

344 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:57am

re: #322 Occasional Reader

So it's bird puns, eh? Well, toucan play at that game.



Great Tits!
Nice Bobbies - there, that's the pun thread & the boob thread out of my system. Back to work.

345 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:25:59am

Seymour Hersh Says Carter is Advising Obama on Israel Issue
RJC Calls on Obama to Explain Former President's Role
Washington, D.C. (March 31, 2009) - The Republican Jewish Coalition (RJC) today called on the Obama administration to disclose the role of former President Jimmy Carter in advising the administration on critical foreign policy issues.

Outa the frying pan into the fire

346 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:02am

re: #273 rsdavis

You'll collect a lot of downdings for that one but I agree. What people aren't considering is the alternatives. If we don't bailout financial institutions the economy has no hope of recovery. The TARP buyout was a necessity and any responsible leader (Dem or Rep) would have done it. Giving the money without oversight and conditions would be irresponsible.
These bailouts should be painful for the companies receiving them. The fact that they are bitching and complaining is a positive sign.

347 opinionated  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:04am

re: #335 opinionated

That would be so much better if I proofread it for spelling and grammatical errors.

348 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:06am

re: #39 opnion

BHO touts himself as a Constitutional scholar, but he has such little respect for the document.

Obama studies the Constitution like a prisoner studies the penal code and appeals process -- just for loopholes.

349 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:07am

re: #340 Honorary Yooper

Yeah, where's Avanti?

In dietro, as usual.

350 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:24am

re: #240 zombie

Back on topic -- didn't Obama just semi-nationalize the auto industry yesterday? I saw the headlines, but couldn't bring myself to read the articles.

Obama's pace and expertise at turning the U.S. into a socialist economy is making Hugo Chavez look like an amateur.

I am shocked, stunned, and amazed that they have, so far, left the oil industry alone. Those guys have to be biting their nails.

351 jorline  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:26am

re: #239 reine.de.tout

sadly, the loony friend I had lunch with the other day, who saddened me with her complete idiocy on these issues, will have absolutely no problem at all with the gov't setting salaries, overseeing "bonuses" - requiring performance indicators, etc.

Hey, riene.

Funny you bring this up. I just left the kitchen where we were discussing this topic. One of my best cooks voted for "O" and think salaries should be regulated. So I asked him the following questions.

Q--What would happen if I capped your salary or said you make to much and cut your salary?
A--I would probably quit he said.
Q--What do you think would happen if the government told me I have to pay you twice what you make now?
A--You would probably go out of business.

I told him either way your out of a job and I guess I should pay you the same as the new guy starting...fairs, fair.

The lights went on briefly. He's a typical liberal...talks out of both sides of his ass.

352 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:27am

re: #341 SasquatchOnSteroids

I have eaten crow many times....

Must be a wrenching experience.......

353 jaunte  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:35am

re: #335 opinionated

A UAW spokesman was on Fox this morning, saying that the 'front line' in this battle to make GM functional again was the consumer. Look for some Government mandates about what kind of cars we must buy, coming soon.

354 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:37am

re: #321 JohnnyReb

The wife and I are in the same boat. 50+ and lost over 50% of our 401k's. We are pretty much done and realize we will be working until we die.

Mrs. Reject and I are in the same leaky boat. We've both transitioned into jobs we can do until we're dead and our major investment is now life insurance to make sure our debts are paid and Little Reject will at least have a small inheritance.

/Thanks for nothing all you folks who stayed home on election day!

355 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:44am

re: #319 looking closely

As I mentioned earlier, EVERY hospital and doctor already take Federal money, because they all take Medicare.

Extrapolate (and you don't have to do this very far) and now you have gov't control over hospital administration AND physician salaries.

Dentists don't. Well this one doesn't.

356 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:53am

re: #321 JohnnyReb

The wife and I are in the same boat. 50+ and lost over 50% of our 401k's. We are pretty much done and realize we will be working until we die.


I'd be thrilled if *only* 50% of my net worth had disappeared in the last 12 months. Unfortunately for me, its far more than that.

Worse, with Obama @#$ing up the economy further, increasing taxes, etc, I am not optimistic that I will be able to make it back anytime in the next 10 years.

357 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:26:56am

re: #324 Josephine

Has this ever been done by the United States government?

Is there a model anywhere that we can look at?

It's never been done by the United States government, but it's been done in:

Russia
Cuba
Venezuela
England
Sweden
Chile
Vietnam
...and any number of countries that have toyed with or fully embraced a socialist economic model.

Needless to say, the results of most of those experiments have been pretty miserable.

358 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:27:04am

re: #337 sattv4u2

well,, they could ,, but would you really want a glass of it !?!?!?

Yeah, selling pi**and calling it lemonade. No thanks.

359 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:27:09am

re: #352 LGoPs

Must be a wrenching experience.......

Bravo! I am raven about that one.

360 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:27:26am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

Makes sense.

361 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:27:37am
362 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:27:39am

re: #352 LGoPs

Must be a wrenching experience.......

You're talon me.

363 yesandno  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:27:57am

Also, as part of the stimulus, isn't there a statement in there about people bidding on contracts....if they bid, then they must pay their help the prevailing wage. So a non-union bricklayer must be paid at the union rate in order for the company be able to bid. Like taking every bricklayer in private business getting a $10000 pay increase just so the company can bit.

This means, of course, the non-union company cannot really bid because in their bidding strategy costs, they must include major pay raises for the help. Said to protect the Union against unfair bidding, it actually favors the union and is unfair against non-union business. And person who works for him does with less because they can't find enough work.

[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

2. Prevailing Wage RatesThe ARRA specifically provides that all laborers and mechanics employed by contractors and subcontractors (whether or not unionized) on projects funded by stimulus funds, are required to be paid prevailing wages. This expansion of prevailing wage rates means that non-union contactors accessing stimulus funds cannot gain an unfair bidding advantage by paying wages below the union rate

364 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:28:07am

re: #338 godfrey

The GDR made cars out of cardboard. Think of the carbon savings! O joy!

Duroplast, not cardboard. No idea why the cardboard myth still exists. Duroplast is a type of reinforced resin plastic.

365 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:28:16am

re: #359 Ford_Prefect

Bravo! I am raven about that one.

We should start a Pun Union. Then we could all go on shrike.....

366 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:28:23am

Run away from the government as fast as you can!

367 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:28:38am

Apropos: Mark Steyn on the Europeanization of America.

We thought Obama was the first black US president. In fact, he's the first Scandanavian US president.

368 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:28:50am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

You'll collect a lot of downdings for that one but I agree

Please see my #327. I have no problem with the gov;t setting some PRIOR conditions for a company to get bail out monies, but to make things RETROCATIVE, and as I stated, what othre "cost savings' will the gov't insist on. For a large company, do you have any idea how much paid time off costs? what if the gov;t stated that all workers could only take 3 days paid vacation per year, Would you be okay with that?

369 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:29:11am

re: #350 Russkilitlover

I am shocked, stunned, and amazed that they have, so far, left the oil industry alone. Those guys have to be biting their nails.

Gawd - don't be so impatient, PB0 and his minions can't do everything at once, ya know!
Oil will have to wait its turn, let them chew their fingernails all the way up to their elbows.

///////

370 redstateredneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:29:15am

re: #363 yesandno

Also, as part of the stimulus, isn't there a statement in there about people bidding on contracts....if they bid, then they must pay their help the prevailing wage. So a non-union bricklayer must be paid at the union rate in order for the company be able to bid. Like taking every bricklayer in private business getting a $10000 pay increase just so the company can bit.

This means, of course, the non-union company cannot really bid because in their bidding strategy costs, they must include major pay raises for the help. Said to protect the Union against unfair bidding, it actually favors the union and is unfair against non-union business. And person who works for him does with less because they can't find enough work.

[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

2. Prevailing Wage RatesThe ARRA specifically provides that all laborers and mechanics employed by contractors and subcontractors (whether or not unionized) on projects funded by stimulus funds, are required to be paid prevailing wages. This expansion of prevailing wage rates means that non-union contactors accessing stimulus funds cannot gain an unfair bidding advantage by paying wages below the union rate

I thought that already existed for bidding government jobs.

371 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:29:18am

For the second time in just as many years, a sex scandal has erupted at Oprah Winfrey's South African school for girls, though the details still remain a bit elusive.
According to The Times of South Africa, seven young female students have been expelled from the talk-show host's institution for sexual misconduct.

[Link: www.popeater.com...]

I wonder what they teach down there?

372 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:29:30am

re: #319 looking closely

As I mentioned earlier, EVERY hospital and doctor already take Federal money, because they all take Medicare.

Extrapolate (and you don't have to do this very far) and now you have gov't control over hospital administration AND physician salaries.

The government could, and probably will, use a similar twist that even a third and fourth hand, if not further, bailout dollar will make a business subject to this bill.

The wording of the bill is just slippery enough that it really doesn't require actual money.

373 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:29:34am

re: #364 Honorary Yooper

Ok, thanks for that. Duroplast. Learn something new every day.

374 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:29:40am

re: #276 Occasional Reader

Oman... why don't you try it, you jive Turkey. I'll let my .45 do the talkin'. "BANG! (cock)" will be the last sound you hear.

Did you just call someone a JT?

375 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:29:55am

re: #365 LGoPs

We should start a Pun Union. Then we could all go on shrike.....

Wouldn't that be robin Peter to pay Paul?

376 Idle Drifter  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:06am

re: #334 Maximu§

OK, GREAT, for any surgery treatment I may need will be controlled by bureaucrats. I guess I'll start seeing a witch doctor and invest in whiskey, a large mirrors, butcher's tables, and fillet knives.

377 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:15am

re: #365 LGoPs

We should start a Pun Union. Then we could all go on shrike.....

Given the way unions usually work, we'd just be robin' Peter to pay Paul.

378 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:22am

re: #353 jaunte

A UAW spokesman was on Fox this morning, saying that the 'front line' in this battle to make GM functional again was the consumer. Look for some Government mandates about what kind of cars we must buy, coming soon.

Great. They'll probably say anyone with an old car has to buy a new one, and mine are 13 and 10 years old. They're still cheaper to maintain than to replace.

379 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:28am

re: #305 zombie

...Creating several new layers of bureaucracy and massively increasing the number of government departments and employees...

And seriously harshing my mellow.

380 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:32am

re: #356 looking closely

I'd be thrilled if *only* 50% of my net worth had disappeared in the last 12 months. Unfortunately for me, its far more than that.

Worse, with Obama @#$ing up the economy further, increasing taxes, etc, I am not optimistic that I will be able to make it back anytime in the next 10 years.

The one single advantage we have is both of us are retired Navy, so I guess we can quit in about 20 years.

I double dog dare them to start messing around with military retirement pay.

381 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:44am

I can't bear it. I'm going to write, instead.

382 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:44am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

If we don't bailout financial institutions the economy has no hope of recovery.

I think that's a debatable assertion, but not provable either way.

383 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:50am

re: #360 Racer X

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the right's instincts on bailouts are being exploited by the Paulians who want to destroy the economy, abolish the Federal Reserve, etc. I don't think people are really thinking about the consequences of their stance against the bailouts and oversight, I think most if this is just reactionary opposition to Obama.

384 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:30:51am

re: #345 Nevergiveup

Seymour Hersh Says Carter is Advising Obama on Israel Issue
RJC Calls on Obama to Explain Former President's Role
Washington, D.C. (March 31, 2009) - The Republican Jewish Coalition (RJC) today called on the Obama administration to disclose the role of former President Jimmy Carter in advising the administration on critical foreign policy issues.

Outa the frying pan into the fire


Though it seems unpleasantly plausible that Obama would seek (if not necessarily take) foreign policy advice from the worst American foreign policy President in living memory, Hersh has credibility issues.

385 Josephine  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:06am

re: #357 zombie

Thanks, Zombie.

I'll ask my history-buff hubby for the details of what was done in England.

Canada is socialist enough; I don't want America to be worse!

386 tfc3rid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:21am

re: #367 Occasional Reader

Apropos: Mark Steyn on the Europeanization of America.

We thought Obama was the first black US president. In fact, he's the first Scandanavian US president.

Well, Bill Clinton was the first black President...

387 MarkX  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:22am

re: #380 JohnnyReb

I double dog dare them to start messing around with military retirement pay.

Don't tempt them...

388 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:32am

re: #368 sattv4u2

You'll collect a lot of downdings for that one but I agree

Please see my #327. I have no problem with the gov;t setting some PRIOR conditions for a company to get bail out monies, but to make things RETROCATIVE, and as I stated, what othre "cost savings' will the gov't insist on. For a large company, do you have any idea how much paid time off costs? what if the gov;t stated that all workers could only take 3 days paid vacation per year, Would you be okay with that?

Common sense ties to the money are being used as the stepping stone to greater government control.

389 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:34am

Another issue with the union thing is the self-employed. In Minnesota, unions (and in one case...the building inspector in Duluth) have tried to block self-employeed contractors from working on projects....even those that receive no gov't money. They call the small business owner a "scab".

390 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:36am

re: #375 Ford_Prefect

Wouldn't that be robin Peter to pay Paul?

If you did that you would be sent to Jayol......

391 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:50am

re: #365 LGoPs

Go on shrike? That's all you union shlubs do, grouse, grouse, grouse.

392 MikeAlv77  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:31:54am

re: #325 NukeAtomrod

Anyone feel like arguing that these guys aren't communists today? Any takers?

Ok, they are not communists...

They are socialist pinko bottom feeders...

( better? )

393 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:01am

re: #380 JohnnyReb

The one single advantage we have is both of us are retired Navy, so I guess we can quit in about 20 years.

I double dog dare them to start messing around with military retirement pay.

Your new retirement will be 40 acres and a mule.
/

394 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:05am

re: #324 Josephine


The government would have to create a huge, expensive bureaucracy to administer this program.


Welcome to the Obama administration.

Huge expensive bureaucracies are the WHOLE POINT.

395 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:13am

re: #380 JohnnyReb

The one single advantage we have is both of us are retired Navy, so I guess we can quit in about 20 years.

I double dog dare them to start messing around with military retirement pay.

Or Tricare.

396 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:13am

re: #351 jorline

Hey, riene.

Funny you bring this up. I just left the kitchen where we were discussing this topic. One of my best cooks voted for "O" and think salaries should be regulated. So I asked him the following questions.

Q--What would happen if I capped your salary or said you make to much and cut your salary?
A--I would probably quit he said.
Q--What do you think would happen if the government told me I have to pay you twice what you make now?
A--You would probably go out of business.

I told him either way your out of a job and I guess I should pay you the same as the new guy starting...fairs, fair.

The lights went on briefly. He's a typical liberal...talks out of both sides of his ass.

Well, it sounds like you may have been able to get through to this guy, even if briefly and limited to this issue and that's a good thing!

Nothing like having a policy shown to be affecting a person personally for the lights to go on ,eh?

397 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:14am

re: #365 LGoPs

We should start a Pun Union. Then we could all go on shrike.....

Cardinal Check ?

398 baier  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:26am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

I totally disagree with you. The bailout weakened our system. Firms that should have failed, did not. Those that were strong and survived cannot now take advantage of the market, as is their right. Instead of having the strongest and wisest survive and thrive, we are supporting hobbled weak competition.
We are weakening our own system by trying to save it.

399 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:40am

re: #368 sattv4u2

what if the gov;t stated that all workers could only take 3 days paid vacation per year, Would you be okay with that?

If they are receiving bailout money I don't think I'd complain.

400 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:32:54am

Hello,
The new twist in the Democratic tactic here is that they are calling for wage controls first and only on "The Rich." That will quickly trickle down to controlling labor also as they colonize the Board Rooms and enact new regulations to protect the People's Investments. The old "Wage and Price Controls" that Nixon got suckered into sponsoring did wages up front and aroused hostility, followed quickly by economic trauma. This way Obama gets the power up front and the economic stagnation to be followed by collapse will come later.

401 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:33:22am

re: #390 LGoPs

If you did that you would be sent to Jayol......

Where I'd probably go stork, raving mad.

402 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:33:29am

re: #390 LGoPs

If you did that you would be sent to Jayol......

And all the cuckoos would crane their necks to see it.

403 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:33:32am

re: #397 SasquatchOnSteroids

Cardinal Check ?

The thought of that makes me quail.......

404 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:33:37am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

If they are receiving bailout money I don't think I'd complain.

Yup. complaining never did the workers in Stalin"s Russia any good anyway?

405 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:33:40am

re: #390 LGoPs

If you did that you would be sent to Jayol......

I'm pretty hawkish on the matter myself.

406 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:33:40am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

There have been other economic downturns and they received no government bailouts, and we recovered just fine. The few times when the government intervened it can cogently be argued that doing so only prolonged and increased the problem. The Great Depression is one such instance.

407 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:33:57am

Off to wait in line for my Peoples' Gruel allotment.

408 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:34:00am

re: #251 Racer X

They are all getting welfare?

Look at the wording.
It doesnt say "bailout folks" it says would impose government controls on the pay of all employees — not just top executives — of companies that have received a capital investment from the U.S. government.

that can be manipulated

409 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:34:04am

re: #401 Occasional Reader

Where I'd probably go stork, raving mad.

They'd send you to Pelican Bay.

410 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:34:21am

re: #382 wrenchwench

I have been searching for informed opinions on likely scenarios resulting from not bailing out the banks, no luck. I'm pretty sure it would be very very bad and would likely last a decade or two.

411 sleepyone  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:34:23am

That piece of shit Barney Frank. I don't know how that motherfucker looks at himself in the mirror.

412 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:34:32am

re: #380 JohnnyReb


I double dog dare them to start messing around with military retirement pay.


No "messing" is necessary.

To screw you royally the only thing that has to happen is that your retirement pay NOT be indexed to inflation.

IE, you may be delivered everything promised. . .unfortunately it will be in dollars worth 1/2 of what they are today.

413 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:34:34am

re: #409 LGoPs

They'd send you to Pelican Bay.

You pheasants don't know how good you have it.

414 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:34:40am

re: #401 Occasional Reader

It's a foul place for pigeons. When you're there, your life is pretty much plover.

415 Josephine  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:06am

re: #394 looking closely

Welcome to the Obama administration.

Huge expensive bureaucracies are the WHOLE POINT.

I was so disappointed when he was elected. Socialism is anti-American.

Empire-building = the business of bureaucracies.

416 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:10am

re: #403 LGoPs

The thought of that makes me quail.......

Not very pheasant, is it.

417 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:29am

re: #273 rsdavis

Lets cut everyone a little slack. Six months or one year from now we'll see if we are on the road to hell, as so many commenters seem to think, or, mine own take, it is much ado about nothing.

I'm the last person to scream "The sky is falling! We're doomed!" I do think something needs to be done, and I agree that if the government is going to bail out companies, it's not completely unreasonable to expect some quid pro quo.

But this legislation goes WAY too far. When the government gives itself this much power (i.e., to void existing contracts for ALL employees, retroactively) it's very disturbing, and just packed full of potential for abuse.

418 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:38am

re: #416 SasquatchOnSteroids

Not very pheasant, is it.

Hard to swallow

419 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:43am

re: #414 godfrey

It's a foul place for pigeons. When you're there, your life is pretty much plover.

It's eider eat or be eaten.

420 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:52am

Racer X, correct. it's not just free money for businesses in trouble, but using these rules against any gov't contractor. Kind of like they do with affirmative action.

421 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:54am

re: #402 Ford_Prefect

And all the cuckoos would crane their necks to see it.

There's lots of heron addicts in jayol........

422 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:35:57am

re: #410 Killgore Trout

I have been searching for informed opinions on likely scenarios resulting from not bailing out the banks, no luck. I'm pretty sure it would be very very bad and would likely last a decade or two.

Oh please. Healthy banks would step up. Would there be a short-term shock to the system? Probably. That would be preferable to the long and drawn out misery this is going to put us through.

423 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:36:00am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

You'll collect a lot of downdings for that one but I agree. What people aren't considering is the alternatives. If we don't bailout financial institutions the economy has no hope of recovery. The TARP buyout was a necessity and any responsible leader (Dem or Rep) would have done it. Giving the money without oversight and conditions would be irresponsible.
These bailouts should be painful for the companies receiving them. The fact that they are bitching and complaining is a positive sign.

Killgore, this has nothing to do with making it painful for the companies to receive the bailout money.

This is a way to start pushing this country to a European styled socialism. They are using the current financial crisis as a cover, and you are falling for it.

I will NEVER let my personal financial situation become the bait that the government wraps around their hook of salvation. I will take care of myself. No one owes me anything and I make my own way and that's what this country has always offered.

When is stops offering that to me, when it begins to tell me what is best for me, what money I should be making, what medical treatments are best for me, when it gets to the point that this government has positioned itself to be my personal savior, that's when I tell them...

NEVER.

You want the bone, take it.

424 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:36:19am

re: #421 LGoPs

There's lots of heron addicts in jayol........

Ha! Toucan play at this game.

425 badger1970  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:36:50am

re: #411 sleepyone

He simply doesn't (along with many others in the brouhaha)

426 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:36:53am

re: #410 Killgore Trout

Research the other recession/depressions the US has undergone. Nearly all were allowed to proceed without any government intervention. The Great Depression was one such deviation, and most economists conclude that just prolonged and DEEPENED the severity.

427 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:37:08am

It's not just losing 50+% in the stock market (more whenever Obama or his lackeys open their trap about the economy or monetary supply), it's the inevitable inflationary effects of printing a zillion dollars. I honestly don't know how to prepare for that -- even the gold coin market has been overrun. I asked an older associate of mine how he financially survived the Carter years, and his answer was "I didn't." Basically it was like that ridiculous "reset"/overcharge button Hillary's morons trotted out with the Russians, only with your personal finances.

428 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:37:17am

re: #419 Ford_Prefect

And if you eat, you won't like the bitternness. It's a problem.

429 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:37:21am

Anyone happen to know a good site where I can find out how much money GM has paid in taxes for the last few years? I have a sneaking suspicion that these oh-so generous bailouts are (at least in part) more of a tax refund.

430 capitalist piglet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:37:26am

re: #380 JohnnyReb

The one single advantage we have is both of us are retired Navy, so I guess we can quit in about 20 years.

I double dog dare them to start messing around with military retirement pay.

Don't give them any ideas.

431 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:37:29am

re: #313 Kosh's Shadow

I definately replied to the wrong post but I needed to get your answer as I had recently met with the kosher Rabbi and it was something that I had not experienced before. Now I know better. A bow from now on.

432 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:37:46am

re: #346 Killgore Trout

You'll collect a lot of downdings for that one but I agree. What people aren't considering is the alternatives. If we don't bailout financial institutions the economy has no hope of recovery. The TARP buyout was a necessity and any responsible leader (Dem or Rep) would have done it. Giving the money without oversight and conditions would be irresponsible.
These bailouts should be painful for the companies receiving them. The fact that they are bitching and complaining is a positive sign.

You can make arguments about what sort of assistance the gov't should have given troubled financial institutions. That's for a different post.

But why the heck should the taxpayers be subsidizing GM's failure?

There are plenty of other car manufacturers that are doing better jobs, and why should THEY be penalized for doing so by having their mismanaged competitors propped up at the public dime?

I would make a STRONG argument that its in the public's interest for GM to enter chapter 11.

433 Rednek  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:02am

Just think what would follow if this were passed by Congress and signed but President Government:

Road projects that received federal money: Set pay for construction company management and labor...and make sure they pass muster with the local unions.

Colleges that get federal money: Set pay for professors.

Hospitals that get medicare or medicaid: Set pay for doctors, nurses, and administrators.

Why stop there?

434 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:08am

re: #378 Kosh's Shadow

Great. They'll probably say anyone with an old car has to buy a new one, and mine are 13 and 10 years old. They're still cheaper to maintain than to replace.

Don't think this couldn't happen!
Our NuLab government has seriously proposed somethign called 'scrappage'. They proposed to give everybody a nice handout of £2000 if they traded in their old car and bought a new one.

The gales of laughter and howls of outrage in the readers' comments pages of the MFM made them retire that proposal pdq ...

Politicians simply are not just dumb as shit, they live in a world totally unrelated to what is known as 'normal life'.

435 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:14am

re: #407 Occasional Reader

Off to wait in line for my Peoples' Gruel allotment.

grab me a chunk of brown bread will you.

436 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:23am
437 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:35am

re: #383 Killgore Trout

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the right's instincts on bailouts are being exploited by the Paulians who want to destroy the economy, abolish the Federal Reserve, etc. I don't think people are really thinking about the consequences of their stance against the bailouts and oversight, I think most if this is just reactionary opposition to Obama.

Hey Killgore, I don't agree with any of this, and I don't see any Paulian up my ass.

You want to know what this is, at least in my case? Well-founded reactionary opposition to socialism.

Got that?

438 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:38am

re: #426 FurryOldGuyJeans

Research the other recession/depressions the US has undergone. Nearly all were allowed to proceed without any government intervention. The Great Depression was one such deviation, and most economists conclude that just prolonged and DEEPENED the severity.

Yes and if you want to educate yourself Kilgore read Manias, Panics and Crashes by Charles Kindleberger

439 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:43am

re: #428 godfrey

And if you eat, you won't like the bitternness. It's a problem.

True. You just need to thrush yourself into it.

440 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:38:53am

re: #424 Ford_Prefect

Ha! Toucan play at this game.

Shhhhhhh....quiet! We have to keep it a segret.......

441 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:39:03am

The control issues here are the problem.

Who here actually trusts Barney Frank and Tim Geithner to set up a decent process? I don't.

This is a grab. I wonder what it would take to get SCOTUS involved.

442 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:39:05am

Diamond Bullet, that's my point. My 401(K) has lost about 50% of it's value, but I am 30 years from retirement yet.

The problem is, in a new Euro-socialist America, businesses will not thrive. Slow growth in stock values, and much of that eaten up by inflation.

443 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:39:17am

re: #435 Eowyn2

grab me a chunk of brown bread will you.

Filtering brake fluid again eh?

444 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:39:29am

re: #367 Occasional Reader

Apropos: Mark Steyn on the Europeanization of America.

We thought Obama was the first black US president. In fact, he's the first Scandanavian US president.

* * * *
One Spanish wag said Obama was just emulating Zapatero the Socialist coward.

445 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:39:36am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

If they are receiving bailout money I don't think I'd complain.

wow ,,,,, just ,,,,,wow

So if I were to loan you money for youR small business, and I told you you had 10 years to pay it back at 3% interest, THEN,, a MONTH later I stated that it is now 30% interest, you have only 2 years to pay it back, you have to fire your CEO and your workers get no paid vacations and a 15 minute lunch instead of an hour, you wouldn't complain!

WOW ,,,,,,, JUST ,,,,,,, WOW

446 Adrenalyn  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:39:46am

damn, another day
another 9 on the "outrage meter"

/hint, hint

447 SFGoth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:39:51am

Woohoo! Communism! Does this apply to Hollywood? Didn't Hollywood get a bail out? Oh wait, it got a bail out from California, which is seeking reimbursement from the Feds. Ahhhh, liberal morons win again! If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em. Didja hear the about the....

448 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:03am

(I'm stealing some lines from Proctor and Bergman of Firesign Theatre)

What a raw deal.
And if we beef? He'll give us the bird! That chicken. And we must eagle crow.

449 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:13am

re: #440 LGoPs

Shhhhhhh....quiet! We have to keep it a segret.......

*finches

You startled me. I didn't know you were so close.

450 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:19am

re: #417 Charles

But this legislation goes WAY too far. When the government gives itself this much power (i.e., to void existing contracts for ALL employees, retroactively) it's very disturbing, and just packed full of potential for abuse.

Obama's handling of the crisis has been flawed, as was Bush's. This is complicated stuff and even most economists don't know what will work and what won't.
But extrapolating scenarios from these laws is the exactly what the LLL did for the past 8 years. They wrote about Bush's massive expansion of power and that we were all going to be denied far trials and sent to gitmo, etc.
Obama has screwed up, and he will screw up some more but I think it's important to view these laws in the context of what they mean instead of possible slippery slope scenarios of what they could potentially mean.

451 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:21am

re: #441 godfrey

The control issues here are the problem.

Who here actually trusts Barney Frank and Tim Geithner to set up a decent process? I don't.

This is a grab. I wonder what it would take to get SCOTUS involved.

By the time it gets before SCOTUS it will be too late - the tentacles of power will have reached deep

452 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:24am

My daughter's friend voted for the One. Now that she is seeing how a bag of loose tobacco is going from 7.99 per 1# bag is going to approx. 60.00 per 1# bag...she is experiencing serious buyers remorse. I think it is hilarious. I will be quitting...cold turkey. There is no way in hell I am spending that much money on tobacco. Then when everyone quits, how will they fund SCHIP? Bastards!

Oh and I think we should be able to determine the rate of pay congress receives based on their performance. Fuckers.

453 godfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:33am

re: #444 alegrias

"Zapatero" would be such a cool name if it weren't attached to such an extremist.

454 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:43am

re: #433 Rednek

Just think what would follow if this were passed by Congress and signed but President Government:

Road projects that received federal money: Set pay for construction company management and labor...and make sure they pass muster with the local unions.

Colleges that get federal money: Set pay for professors.

Hospitals that get medicare or medicaid: Set pay for doctors, nurses, and administrators.

Why stop there?

You have it backwards, the law states that they pay "prevailing wage rates" but those are set by the unions and the effect of government spending is to inflate wages and not control them.

455 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:47am

re: #449 Ford_Prefect

*finches

You startled me. I didn't know you were so close.

This is getting loony.......

456 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:51am

re: #291 Racer X

re: #301 Occasional Reader

A classic. Perhaps you will enjoy this one too...

457 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:55am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

So is there any level of government control of a bailed-out corporation that would not be justified by the bailout? For example, could they fire the members of the board, and so on?

458 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:40:59am

re: #410 Killgore Trout

I have been searching for informed opinions on likely scenarios resulting from not bailing out the banks, no luck. I'm pretty sure it would be very very bad and would likely last a decade or two.

No, you might see something closer to the Panic of 1907 if the government did minimal interference. However, since it was governmental interference that caused the problem in the first place, do you really want the government to fix it?

459 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:41:05am

re: #440 LGoPs

Shhhhhhh....quiet! We have to keep it a segret.......

Or Martin will shit on your parade.

460 Alaska Kim  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:41:23am

Good morning, y'all.

461 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:41:41am

re: #455 LGoPs

This is getting loony.......

Owls well that ends well.

462 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:41:56am
Woohoo! Communism! Does this apply to Hollywood? Didn't Hollywood get a bail out? Oh wait, it got a bail out from California, which is seeking reimbursement from the Feds. Ahhhh, liberal morons win again! If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em. Didja hear the about the....

Many states give corporate welfare to Big Hollywood. Wisconsin does it. Minnesota stopped doing it, so they wrote out a check last year to two guys to film their movie in Minnesota instead of Wisconsin. Canada does it.

463 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:42:15am

re: #461 Ford_Prefect

Owls well that ends well.

There you go, bringing up Hooters again...

464 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:42:15am

re: #459 SasquatchOnSteroids

Or Martin will shit on your parade.

You have some real gull saying that........

465 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:42:21am

re: #434 yma o hyd

Don't think this couldn't happen!
Our NuLab government has seriously proposed somethign called 'scrappage'. They proposed to give everybody a nice handout of £2000 if they traded in their old car and bought a new one.

The gales of laughter and howls of outrage in the readers' comments pages of the MFM made them retire that proposal pdq ...

Politicians simply are not just dumb as shit, they live in a world totally unrelated to what is known as 'normal life'.

Not sure if this is still in effect, but in Japan you pretty much had to buy a new car every 3-4 years, unless you were ultra rich. Anything older than that was taxed to death. We were stationed there in the late 1980s so this may have changed. But it has been done before.

466 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:42:27am

re: #459 SasquatchOnSteroids

Or Martin will shit on your parade.

I must admit, I am becoming en-raptor-ed with this pun thread.

467 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:42:31am

re: #427 Diamond Bullet

It's not just losing 50+% in the stock market (more whenever Obama or his lackeys open their trap about the economy or monetary supply), it's the inevitable inflationary effects of printing a zillion dollars. I honestly don't know how to prepare for that -- even the gold coin market has been overrun. I asked an older associate of mine how he financially survived the Carter years, and his answer was "I didn't." Basically it was like that ridiculous "reset"/overcharge button Hillary's morons trotted out with the Russians, only with your personal finances.

This is a real problem.
Ordinarily any hard asset should be inflation-resistant.
Unfortunately, gold is already astronomically priced.
The usual hedge (real estate) isn't a practical investment for most people right now.

468 Rednek  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:42:40am

re: #450 Killgore Trout

Obama's handling of the crisis has been flawed, as was Bush's. This is complicated stuff and even most economists don't know what will work and what won't.
But extrapolating scenarios from these laws is the exactly what the LLL did for the past 8 years. They wrote about Bush's massive expansion of power and that we were all going to be denied far trials and sent to gitmo, etc.
Obama has screwed up, and he will screw up some more but I think it's important to view these laws in the context of what they mean instead of possible slippery slope scenarios of what they could potentially mean.

Hey, I like sledding on the slipper slopes!

Wheeee!

469 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:42:53am

re: #463 SasquatchOnSteroids

There you go, bringing up Hooters again...

Finally, a Booby thread!

470 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:43:09am

The next time some high profile American appears before barney frank's committee for the latest show trial, I hope their opening statement goes something like this:

"Mr. Chairman, before I get started, I would like to send my best wishes to Justice Antonin Scalia, a great man whose reputation has been besmirched and deserves an apology. Thank you Mr Chairman."

How great would that be?

471 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:43:12am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

If they are receiving bailout money I don't think I'd complain.

Just how far are you willing to go with this position? Sounds like you'd be quite happy with virtual enslavement of all employees who work for these firms.

472 Fierce Guppy  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:43:19am

I really could not care less about what happens to "businesses" that derive all or part of their income from captive financiers, namely taxpayers. They're just parasites to be squashed.

Tony.

473 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:43:20am

re: #432 looking closely

I'm all in favor of letting GM fail. But now probably isn't the time to let it happen. There were opportunities in the past but we didn't let it happen. They will eventually fail but the economy is so desperate now that I will reluctantly endorse postponing GM's failure until the economy is healthier.

474 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:43:23am

re: #432 looking closely

But why the heck should the taxpayers be subsidizing GM's failure?

Yes, this brings it back to the subject at hand. Bringing up the bank bailouts is a red herring.

475 Ben Hur  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:43:34am

Let's let Big Government run our health care!

476 Adrenalyn  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:43:49am

re: #441 godfrey

The control issues here are the problem.

Who here actually trusts Barney Frank and Tim Geithner to set up a decent process? I don't.

This is a grab. I wonder what it would take to get SCOTUS involved.

the problem is the American people
they rely on Hollywood for their direction, a good amount do

for example, yesterday
a doctor friend and his wife, an RN
both educated, intelligent people, you'd think

were railing over how Alan Greenspan said in an interview, excerpted in a book about him, that he had no TV

they were FURIOUS that he could make a decision without a TV

they had no concept of the fact that he got his news straight from the horses mouth

and of course, never saw any youtube vid's about him telling Congress about Fannie and Freddie and Barney, Chris and Maxine torpedoing it with the "race card"

and this is half of America, and these people voted

477 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:44:02am

re: #455 LGoPs

This is getting loony.......

All these puns coming in fast and furious- when is it gonna be my tern?

478 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:44:12am

re: #417 Charles

I'm the last person to scream "The sky is falling! We're doomed!" I do think something needs to be done, and I agree that if the government is going to bail out companies, it's not completely unreasonable to expect some quid pro quo.

But this legislation goes WAY too far. When the government gives itself this much power (i.e., to void existing contracts for ALL employees, retroactively) it's very disturbing, and just packed full of potential for abuse.

Pre conditions for any gov't money should have been set and eithre agreed to by said company or negotiated or denied. Retroactively stating 'Okay, you took the money, now here's what you must to" is criminal

479 Rednek  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:44:17am

re: #454 lifeofthemind

You have it backwards, the law states that they pay "prevailing wage rates" but those are set by the unions and the effect of government spending is to inflate wages and not control them.

I didn't say they would go up or down.. just that they would be set. What they would be set to depends on who has the most power in Washington.

480 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:44:34am

re: #452 UberInfidel67

My daughter's friend voted for the One. Now that she is seeing how a bag of loose tobacco is going from 7.99 per 1# bag is going to approx. 60.00 per 1# bag...she is experiencing serious buyers remorse. I think it is hilarious. I will be quitting...cold turkey. There is no way in hell I am spending that much money on tobacco. Then when everyone quits, how will they fund SCHIP? Bastards!

Grow your own.
If you can't, don't worry, the inevitable black market will handle this for you.

481 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:44:47am

re: #445 sattv4u2

If I loan my step brother money to pay his rent I'll make him agree to not visit crackwhores for a month.

482 jorline  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:44:48am

re: #396 reine.de.tout

Well, it sounds like you may have been able to get through to this guy, even if briefly and limited to this issue and that's a good thing!

Nothing like having a policy shown to be affecting a person personally for the lights to go on ,eh?

I can guarantee nothing sunk in with this guy. He agreed with me all the way through the election season. Every time he brought up a point he thought was an Obama strength we would talk about it. I would reason him through the thought process and he would work it out himself and agree that it was not a strength....BUT, in the end, he still voted for Obama.

There is NO reasoning with blind faith.

483 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:44:56am

The mobster offers you a favour, and if you accept then he owns you.
Forever.

484 yesandno  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:45:08am

re: #319 looking closely

As I mentioned earlier, EVERY hospital and doctor already take Federal money, because they all take Medicare.

Extrapolate (and you don't have to do this very far) and now you have gov't control over hospital administration AND physician salaries.

Get people mad at CEO of some company, so pass a law people support to control his wages.

People never catch on to what the real agenda is....control of all salaries. And then control of health care is simple because they control wages first...and the rest falls into place.

These folks are devious and play on emotion and all the Obama bots follow along...ignorant. Law of unintended consquences once again.

485 Dave the.....  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:45:13am

Kilgore, I understand your point, but there is one big difference between the paranoia that the LLL had under President Bush, and the concerns many of us have under the Obama-Pelosi-Ried regieme.

The liberal Democrats have promised to do these things. They own Big Labor, NARAL, Big Lawsuit, Big Teachers Unions, Big SEIU, AFSCME etc hugely.

The left in 2004 made things up. The right (or more accurately at LGF....classical Liberals) are afraid that the Democrats will keep their promises.

486 Gretchen  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:45:18am

Questions:

Why do teachers Unions and other unions always squalk at pay for performance schemes? Why is it suddenly okay to use such methods by Congress for non-union employees?

Why don't Barney Frank, Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Dodd and Clinton all work for $1 per year? The performance they have exhibited is certainly not up to par. But wait they were handed a bad situation? Tell Mr. Liddy that.

Can we pay welfare recipients based on performance?

Is "performance" based on a standardized test known as a "Ballot" -- hint the correct answer is always (D?

487 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:45:21am

re: #477 Fenway_Nation

All these puns coming in fast and furious- when is it gonna be my tern?

Mynahs the repeats there aren't that many.

488 Unakite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:45:23am

The purpose of the legislation is to “prohibit unreasonable and excessive compensation and compensation not based on performance standards..”

Barney Frank and his ilk are already receiving unreasonable and excessive compensation for not performing to any standards.

489 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:45:37am
490 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:45:48am

re: #477 Fenway_Nation

All these puns coming in fast and furious- when is it gonna be my tern?

I'm trying to stay adove it all.......

491 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:02am

re: #481 Killgore Trout

Well, wait -- are the crack whores unionized? If so, you'll be depriving them of their livelihood, you kulak!

492 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:03am

re: #481 Killgore Trout

If I loan my step brother money to pay his rent I'll make him agree to not visit crackwhores for a month.

But thats in the agreement for him to GET the money, not added to after you give it to him blindly

493 Alaska Kim  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:21am

re: #452 UberInfidel67

My daughter's friend voted for the One. Now that she is seeing how a
bag of loose tobacco is going from 7.99 per 1# bag is going to approx.
60.00 per 1# bag...she is experiencing serious buyers remorse. I think
it is hilarious. I will be quitting...cold turkey. There is no way in
hell I am spending that much money on tobacco. Then when everyone
quits, how will they fund SCHIP? Bastards!


Oh and I think we should be able to determine the rate of pay congress receives based on their performance. Fuckers.

i quit cold turkey on February 21. That was hard, very hard.

494 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:22am

re: #481 Killgore Trout

If I loan my step brother money to pay his rent I'll make him agree to not visit crackwhores for a month.

NO, you are just enabling him. He needs to stop visiting crackwhores and clean up his act.

Basic intervention 101. Did you miss that class?

495 irongrampa  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:33am

But we mustn't wish him to fail.


Puke.

496 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:38am

re: #487 Ford_Prefect

Mynahs the repeats there aren't that many.

Damn. I've been trying to figure a way to get that bird into a pun. Well done.
*Tips hat*
:)

497 ladycatnip  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:57am

When can we the people vote on how much our elected officials can make?

498 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:46:57am

re: #480 looking closely
Is it legal to grow your own tobacco? No black market for me...that will be as dangerous and buying illegal drugs. I would rather quit and encourage everyone else to do so. I think of it as my little "Kiss my ass, I an't helping your agenda" revolt.

499 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:47:05am

re: #483 Spare O'Lake

The mobster offers you a favour, and if you accept then he owns you.
Forever.

But the mobster is more honest about it than the government. And more reliable.

500 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:47:09am

re: #490 LGoPs

I'm trying to stay adove it all.......

Godwitsing we can keep this going for a while.

501 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:47:14am

re: #481 Killgore Trout

If I loan my step brother money to pay his rent I'll make him agree to not visit crackwhores for a month.

re: #492 sattv4u2

AND funny how you didn;'t address it under the scenario that I gave you

502 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:47:16am

re: #493 Alaska Kim

i quit cold turkey on February 21. That was hard, very hard.

Congratulations! It is so worth it to quit. Here's wishing you the best of smoke-free health.

503 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:47:35am

re: #473 Killgore Trout

I'm all in favor of letting GM fail. But now probably isn't the time to let it happen. There were opportunities in the past but we didn't let it happen. They will eventually fail but the economy is so desperate now that I will reluctantly endorse postponing GM's failure until the economy is healthier.


This argument makes no sense.

We don't "let" GM fail. . .it "accomplishes" that all by itself.

Ultimately, either GM deserves gov't support or it doesn't, period.

IMO, it doesn't, not one red cent.

If you want to bail out GM, why not every other company that is mismanaged and hurting worse now because of the recession? What is so "special" about this mismanaged American company that it deserves special consideration from YOUR wallet to prop it up?

504 Unakite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:06am

re: #42 Emperor Norton

Contracts, wages, and compensation will all be closely monitored by the Ministry of Plenty You Have Too Much.

FIFY.

505 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:11am

re: #417 Charles


But this legislation goes WAY too far. When the government gives itself this much power (i.e., to void existing contracts for ALL employees, retroactively) it's very disturbing, and just packed full of potential for abuse.

This is a guess on my part, but the government might be setting up a way to void the autoworkers union contracts for example with some sort of new restructuring plan short of traditional bankruptcy.
i.e. we'll bail you out but you'll get the $40/hour that the Japanese companies get or you can fail and try Home Depot's wages.
I agree it's a very powerful tool and ripe for potential abuse. The retroactive provision should only be used to recover unearned, and over the top bonuses and wonder if the return is worth the risk.

506 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:16am
507 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:26am

re: #496 LGoPs

Damn. I've been trying to figure a way to get that bird into a pun. Well done.
*Tips hat*
:)

Oh, it was just a lark.

508 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:28am

re: #481 Killgore Trout

If I loan my step brother money to pay his rent I'll make him agree to not visit crackwhores for a month.

Again, Killgore, you miss the point. We are talking about retroactive, not proactive conditions.

509 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:33am

re: #481 Killgore Trout

Hey Killgore, ignoring my questions to you (you haven't answered once) will not make you any more right.

510 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:33am

re: #500 Ford_Prefect

Godwitsing we can keep this going for a while.

Who was aksing for a boob thread? I suggest the titmouse as a candidate.....

511 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:38am

re: #273 rsdavis

. . .
I don't think that President Obama has an easy job. I don't think President Bush did either. I deplored the histrionics aimed at Bush and I deplore them aimed at Obama. Government strong-arming US industry is nothing new. Industry taking advantage of loopholes leading to excesses is nothing new.

Our system oscillates, at time swinging toward deregulation and increased free market economy, at times swinging toward increased regulation and control. The excesses of one invariably lead to a public cry for the other, which then creates a new set of excesses which leads to a reversal. Get used to it.

Lets cut everyone a little slack. Six months or one year from now we'll see if we are on the road to hell, as so many commenters seem to think, or, mine own take, it is much ado about nothing.

Updinged you for the parts I included above. Our system does indeed oscillate, and swing one way and then back again.
Also, because I HOPE you are correct that in 6 months, this will turn out to be much ado about nothing.

Unfortunately - once government gets its hands on something - it seems to me the tendency is not to let go. This particular power that government is taking onto itself right now may very well turn out not to be temporary, but instead the first step toward government-run everything.

So - should we simply wait and see what's what in 6 months? Or should we do RIGHT NOW what we can to make sure that in six months this is indeed "much ado about nothing".

512 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:48:48am

re: #447 SFGoth

Woohoo! Communism! Does this apply to Hollywood? Didn't Hollywood get a bail out? Oh wait, it got a bail out from California, which is seeking reimbursement from the Feds. Ahhhh, liberal morons win again! If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em. Didja hear the about the....

A while back I read an online article that one segment of Hollywood, DreamWorks, received an under the table government bailout when Bank of America began using TARP funds to buy bank customers a ticket upgrade so people would go see the Monsters vs. Aliens movie in 3D venues.

513 yesandno  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:49:02am

re: #370 redstateredneck

I thought that already existed for bidding government jobs.

First I came across it. You may be correct as I wasn't away of it except from hearing about it and finding this on the Internet. Maybe someone more familiar with contract bidding would know how long this has been policy.

514 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:49:08am

Article I, section 10, clause 1:
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Unfortunately it applies to the States and not to the Federal Congress.

515 Rednek  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #498 UberInfidel67

Is it legal to grow your own tobacco? No black market for me...that will be as dangerous and buying illegal drugs. I would rather quit and encourage everyone else to do so. I think of it as my little "Kiss my ass, I an't helping your agenda" revolt.

If you choose not to quit, you can grow your own poppies, too, to treat the cancer pain.

516 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:49:22am

re: #465 JohnnyReb

Thats interesting!
I vaguely recall that some European countries have tries a similar scheme.

Seeing that there is no indigenous British Motor Industry left (yep, Chancellor Brown sold the last few manufactureres...), as opposed to Japan and certain European countries, such a 'scrappage' would mean us taxpayers propping up foreign car manufacturers.
Not a good idea in the prevailing miserable economic climate here in Great Britain.

517 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:49:33am

re: #510 LGoPs

Who was aksing for a boob thread? I suggest the titmouse as a candidate.....

That was veery kind of you.

518 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:49:35am

re: #505 avanti

This is a guess on my part, but the government might be setting up a way to void the autoworkers union contracts for example with some sort of new restructuring plan short of traditional bankruptcy.
i.e. we'll bail you out but you'll get the $40/hour that the Japanese companies get or you can fail and try Home Depot's wages.
I agree it's a very powerful tool and ripe for potential abuse. The retroactive provision should only be used to recover unearned, and over the top bonuses and wonder if the return is worth the risk.

Well, two hours ago you thought it was fine. What happened, your portfolio went down during that time period?

519 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:49:37am

re: #320 zombie

First, it's not just Obama, it's all his fellow travelers. For example, Obama did not really start the AIG bonus outcry but he fanned the flames.

Second, what he is doing isn't so much socialist but fascist. He is allowing nominal private ownership to continue but he is using the power of the state and his bully pulpit to tell those privately owned companies how they must act. Here are the specific examples:

- Cap and trade will allow the government to control the price of various types of energy thereby completely controlling the energy sector.

- The auto bailout has given him leverage to dictate how Chrysler and GM will be recapitalized placing labor and bond holders at equal levels when legally the bond holders are superior to labor and shareholders.

- The financial bailout has given him leverage to dictate compensation plans for all employees. It has also given Geithner the leverage to ask for power to regulate and seize just about any company in the financial sector. And even financial institutions want to give the money back there is no requirement in the bailout for the government to take the money and return control to the private sector.

- The existing medicaid and medicare programs already give the government effective control of prices in the health care sector. Up until now any procedure and drug approved by the FDA would be covered by the programs. The stimulus bill had language to change that standard to one based on a cost benefit model where the cost of the treatment is amortized over your remaining lifespan. If the cost is too high the program will not cover certain treatments.

Obama and his fellow travelers have not implemented all these things yet, but if he gets his way these four points give him de facto control over 30% or 40% of the economy. Since the federal government is moving 20% to 30% of the economy, you add those two up and the executive branch of government will control 50% to 70% of our economy by the end of the year if his measures are passed.

BTW, his allies are trying to keep cap and trade and health care reform in the budget it can pass the senate with 50 votes - no chance for a filibuster.

520 BigAl  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:50:07am
521 Muadib  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:50:20am

Hey congress, go F**K yourselves.

522 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:50:52am

re: #333 FurryOldGuyJeans

A number of the businesses which earlier happily took money from the government are now trying to return it, and being refused. O is going so far as trying to make them take MORE money so they are easier to nationalize.

Fidel and Hugo must be real pleased with Barry.

I have heard this but I have not seen an article with specific quotes or references to government documents. Do you have this?

523 Gretchen  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:50:59am

re: #462 Dave the.....

Many states give corporate welfare to Big Hollywood. Wisconsin does it. Minnesota stopped doing it, so they wrote out a check last year to two guys to film their movie in Minnesota instead of Wisconsin. Canada does it.

States provide tax incentives for all sorts of businesses, entertainment is no different. Movie production can bring big money into states, just like any other industry.

However, according to Obamanomics only productions starring a handful of non-Democrat stars will be taxed heavily.

524 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:51:18am

re: #498 UberInfidel67

Is it legal to grow your own tobacco? No black market for me...that will be as dangerous and buying illegal drugs. I would rather quit and encourage everyone else to do so. I think of it as my little "Kiss my ass, I an't helping your agenda" revolt.

I don't see why it wouldn't be. It's a legal plant. If you live in Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, or Ohio, it would be possible. Then you have to build a barn to cure it. I don't think it would be worth the effort.

525 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:51:18am

re: #521 Muadib

Upding for eloquence!

526 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:51:22am

re: #514 lifeofthemind

Here's the one you want: Article 1,

Section 9: The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.
No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state.
No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one state over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one state, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another.
No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.
No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.
527 formercorpsman  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:51:49am

This is mind blowing.

528 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:51:51am

re: #498 UberInfidel67

Is it legal to grow your own tobacco? No black market for me...that will be as dangerous and buying illegal drugs. I would rather quit and encourage everyone else to do so. I think of it as my little "Kiss my ass, I an't helping your agenda" revolt.


Not only is it legal, until not too long ago, the gov't would actually pay you to do it (ir you were lucky enough to be the beneficiary of another idiotic Federal subsidy, that is).

Of course, tobacco is actually a fairly labor intensive crop to grow, and its not practical for most people to do so. Then you have to cure it, etc. But sure, this can be done.

Of course, once enough people start doing it, Obama or his ilk will tax/ban that too.

They'd ban tobacco outright, but then every single State gov't would be bankrupt, so that's unlikely to happen.

529 Idle Drifter  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:51:57am

So what's the count on dead chickens?

530 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:52:12am

Seems like we've run out of bird puns. It's about falcon' time......

531 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:52:28am

re: #505 avanti

recover unearned, and over the top bonuses

Please tell me what an 'unearned' bonus is? If I contract you to restore my Avanti and we agree UPFRONT that for doing it I will pay you and give you a bonus (i.e. it's in our agreement BEFORE the work starts) could I then just pay you and skip the bonus?

532 redstateredneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:52:34am

re: #513 yesandno

First I came across it. You may be correct as I wasn't away of it except from hearing about it and finding this on the Internet. Maybe someone more familiar with contract bidding would know how long this has been policy.

Davis-Bacon Act.

533 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:52:35am

re: #524 doppelganglander
I'm just gonna quit. It'll be my way of sticking it to the Man. lol

534 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:52:49am

re: #530 LGoPs

So is it a boobie thread now?

535 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:53:13am

re: #530 LGoPs

Seems like we've run out of bird puns. It's about falcon' time......

Ani more and we might go crazy.

536 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:53:16am

re: #515 Rednek

If you choose not to quit, you can grow your own poppies, too, to treat the cancer pain.

Producing opiates *IS* illegal.

537 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:53:52am

re: #534 joncelli

So is it a boobie thread now?

If my mammary serves correctly......

538 Erik The Red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:53:57am

re: #534 joncelli

So is it a boobie thread now?

I am so far behind on this thread. Boobies I could handle right now:)

539 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:54:04am

re: #435 Eowyn2

grab me a chunk of brown bread will you.

* * * *
Good news is you only need flour & water to make bread, sourdough that is.

It may come to that! (Some clever lizard posted the recipe too)

540 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:54:04am

re: #526 joncelli

Here's the one you want: Article 1,

That is my point, Article I section 9, that limits the powers of Congress, does not contain the Contracts Clause. Section 10 does and that only applies to the States.

541 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:54:11am

re: #445 sattv4u2

wow ,,,,, just ,,,,,wow

So if I were to loan you money for youR small business, and I told you you had 10 years to pay it back at 3% interest, THEN,, a MONTH later I stated that it is now 30% interest, you have only 2 years to pay it back, you have to fire your CEO and your workers get no paid vacations and a 15 minute lunch instead of an hour, you wouldn't complain!

WOW ,,,,,,, JUST ,,,,,,, WOW

If I were running by small business into the ground, and you loaned me money, we'd be a couple of fools.

542 redstateredneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:54:13am

re: #524 doppelganglander

I don't see why it wouldn't be. It's a legal plant. If you live in Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, or Ohio, it would be possible. Then you have to build a barn to cure it. I don't think it would be worth the effort.

If you grow it yourself I think you're required to call it tobacky.

543 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:54:47am

re: #531 sattv4u2
Sounds like a kick-back....as long as both are onbaord. Hmmmm maybe that is what is going on....

544 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:54:53am

Dayyum! Every day is a new attack. Will anyone decide they'd rather not have the fed funds? That would be the upside, IMO.

545 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:55:11am

re: #520 BigAl

U.S. Bailouts So Far Total $2.98 Trillion, Official Says

...and counting

I think that number is way too low. That does not count any of the money the Fed has pumped directly into the market.

546 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:55:36am

re: #417 Charles

But this legislation goes WAY too far. When the government gives itself this much power (i.e., to void existing contracts for ALL employees, retroactively) it's very disturbing, and just packed full of potential for abuse.

I think it's actually a promise of abuse. If they use it at all, it's abusive.

547 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:55:42am
548 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:55:43am

re: #481 Killgore Trout

If I loan my step brother money to pay his rent I'll make him agree to not visit crackwhores for a month.

You don't have the power to enforce that condition. The government does. And, there's a difference in that you would try to impose that condition BEFORE you gave the money unlike the government which is trying to do this retroactively.

549 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:55:48am

re: #509 Walter L. Newton

Hey Killgore, ignoring my questions to you (you haven't answered once) will not make you any more right.

Sorry, lots of people are addressing me. I can't respond to everyone.

550 capitalist piglet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:56:04am

Next up: Oil companies.

/MaxineWatters

551 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:56:18am

re: #535 Ford_Prefect

Ani more and we might go crazy.

Charles audo bon anyone who keeps making these silly puns......

552 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:56:22am

re: #518 Walter L. Newton

Well, two hours ago you thought it was fine. What happened, your portfolio went down during that time period?

I'm still fine with the concept, we just need to keep a eye on the application. I don't own enough GM to care directly, but GM's failure would hurt us all.

553 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:56:22am

re: #473 Killgore Trout

I'm all in favor of letting GM fail. But now probably isn't the time to let it happen. There were opportunities in the past but we didn't let it happen. They will eventually fail but the economy is so desperate now that I will reluctantly endorse postponing GM's failure until the economy is healthier.

That will be right around the time you get your unicorn in the mail.

Propping up these failing companies will PROLONG any economic sickness.

554 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:56:35am

re: #538 Erik The Red

I am so far behind on this thread. Boobies I could handle right now:)

The government is going to limit the size of your alloted catch of boobies, in the name of Fairness. Each man in the future will be guaranteed his boobies, but you can imagine what they will look like. (insert your own need for brain bleach here)

555 badger1970  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:56:52am

re: #452 UberInfidel67

The price of cigs have doubled in Texas in the last 3 years. I quit, but if they come for my coffee, someone's going to get slapped.

556 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:57:02am

re: #544 kynna
This is why some governors are rejecting most of the stimulus money. Personally, I think they should all reject it. It give the government too much power over them. They have already proved they can't be trusted.

557 capitalist piglet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:57:34am

re: #552 avanti

I'm still fine with the concept, we just need to keep a eye on the application. I don't own enough GM to care directly, but GM's failure would hurt us all.

And if "we" spot them abusing this, what do "we" do, avanti?

558 lurking faith  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:57:40am

re: #338 godfrey

The GDR made cars out of cardboard. Think of the carbon savings! O joy!

Ha! Actually, the body was plastic with resin and recycled cotton for extra strength. !?

Its mpg of 34 is not that great, considering how light the Trabant is. (In case of starter trouble, I can push one, unaided, quite easily, and bring it up to enough speed so the driver can start it.)

559 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:57:42am

re: #551 LGoPs

Charles audo bon anyone who keeps making these silly puns......

That was very swifts of you, but I don't think Charles is that much of a tyrants.

560 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:58:44am

Top American diplomat Holbrooke has brief, cordial meeting with Islamic Republic's deputy FM at international conference on Afghanistan reconstruction; Clinton says meeting 'did not focus on anything substantive'

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Hey let's do lunch? Text me OK?

561 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:58:56am

re: #556 UberInfidel67

This is why some governors are rejecting most of the stimulus money. Personally, I think they should all reject it. It give the government too much power over them. They have already proved they can't be trusted.

Here in CT they are counting on it for the budget deficit. In fact they are pretty much counting on getting it in future years also. Gonna be ugly when the money spigot gets turned off.

562 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:59:08am

re: #558 lurking faith

Ha! Actually, the body was plastic with resin and recycled cotton for extra strength. !?

Its mpg of 34 is not that great, considering how light the Trabant is. (In case of starter trouble, I can push one, unaided, quite easily, and bring it up to enough speed so the driver can start it.)

I would get 35+ in my 1999 Honda Civic when it was newer and gasoline was gasoline. (10% reduction for the 10% ethanol stuff)
And that is with the AC running. Got 42MPG on one long trip at a constant 70 or so.

563 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:59:22am

Obama is robin Peter to pay Paul. There goes my nest-egg.

564 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:59:24am

re: #551 LGoPs

Charles audo bon anyone who keeps making these silly puns......

That was aviary good pun, BTW.

565 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:59:48am

re: #563 Lincolntf

Obama is robin Peter to pay Paul. There goes my nest-egg.

Well marry Paul?

566 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:59:55am

re: #533 UberInfidel67

I'm just gonna quit. It'll be my way of sticking it to the Man. lol

Good move. You won't regret it.

567 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:00:00am

re: #530 LGoPs

Seems like we've run out of bird puns. It's about falcon' time......

re: #551 LGoPs

Charles audo bon anyone who keeps making these silly puns......

Bird puns ill-eagle ?

Say it ain't so

568 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:00:04am
569 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:00:30am

re: #561 JohnnyReb
Stupid stupid stupid. If these states would get rid of the corruption that is ruining them, they wouldn'd have these deficits. If these states didn't grant benefits to person who are not legally allowed to be here, they wouldn't have these deficits. Priorities people!

570 KansasMom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:00:36am

re: #521 Muadib

Ah, simplicity. I also like your nic!

571 BigAl  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:00:46am

On an optimistic note...this Barney Frank bill will never pass in the house or senate. At some point many Dems will realize that Barney is becoming somewhat demented.

572 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:00:53am

re: #567 SasquatchOnSteroids

Bird puns ill-eagle ?

Say it ain't so

Its committing a Cardinal sin

573 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:01:15am

re: #567 SasquatchOnSteroids

Bird puns ill-eagle ?

Say it ain't so

That's a pretty bald statement.......

574 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:01:15am

re: #563 Lincolntf

Obama is robin Peter to pay Paul. There goes my nest-egg.

* * * *
Brilliant bird pun & sadly true.

575 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:01:18am

Congress is making me SICK!

Hey Congress-critter, how did you get so rich on only $165,200 per year?

576 gymmom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:02:00am

How far back do these go? Far enough to get Franklin Raines salary back?

577 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:02:08am

The world's oldest windmills

578 livfreeordie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:02:13am

The Democrats have wanted to control salaries for a long time. The doctrine of "Comparable Worth" arose in the 1970s to e.g. determine how much a female secretary should be paid compared to a male maintenance guy. Professor Greg Mankiw of Harvard feared a year ago that this is where we were headed under the Democrats. Mankiw on Comparable Worth...

579 yesandno  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:02:29am

re: #532 redstateredneck

Davis-Bacon Act.

Thanks!

580 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:02:39am

re: #576 gymmom

How far back do these go? Far enough to get Franklin Raines salary back?

They'll probably go after the execs of Haliburton, though.

581 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:02:41am

re: #547 buzzsawmonkey

Why does the Envy Squad get to determine what is "unearned" or "over the top?"

What does "wonder if the return is worth the risk" mean? Whether the amount of money "recovered" confiscated is worth the savaging of the concept of private sector?

If you study the growth of bonuses, you might rethink what is fair, and what is stockholder rape. If a CEO made billions in profit, and was paid even a 10 million dollar bonus I would not object. If he lost billions and was paid millions, I'd be concerned. If he lost billions and accepted the tax payers help and was paid millions, I'd demand OUR money back.

582 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:03:01am
583 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:03:06am

re: #577 Killgore Trout

The world's oldest windmills

[Video]

So then why do they need Nuclear Energy?

584 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:03:14am

You want the government out of your business? Make good decisions and don't come begging for welfare from Uncle Sam.

585 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:03:18am

I'll soon be able to see nesting Talibans from my house, thanks to Obama chickenhawk Eric Holder.

586 redstateredneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:03:18am

All this bird talk reminds me. Tweety Bird is 60 years old!

587 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:03:47am
The House Financial Services Committee has approved new legislation that would allow the government to determine how much all employees of businesses that accept federal money should be paid—and it’s retroactive, allowing the government to void existing contracts and impose new terms.

It's a shame they won't use this power to bust the auto industry's union contracts.

588 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:03:53am

re: #581 avanti

I was tempted to give you an upding.

589 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:00am

re: #586 redstateredneck

All this bird talk reminds me. Tweety Bird is 60 years old!

Cripes, I've hated that pernicious little hell-spawn since I was a child.

590 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:04am

re: #542 redstateredneck

If you grow it yourself I think you're required to call it tobacky.

Unfortunately, I think pretty soon we're all going to be growing a lot of things ourselves. I work in a corporate office in downtown DC, yet on the weekends here I am planting strawberries and potatoes in my freakin' back yard. Is there a pithy phrase I can use to hang my forced green thumbing on Obama? What's the opposite of a victory garden?

591 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:08am

re: #524 doppelganglander

I don't see why it wouldn't be. It's a legal plant. If you live in Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, or Ohio, it would be possible. Then you have to build a barn to cure it. I don't think it would be worth the effort.

In addition to all of the above, Tobacco is currently grown in Maryland, Connecticut, Missouri, Massachusetts, Florida, Alabama, Kansas, Georgia, Indiana, Wisconsin, West Virginia, and probably others.

You don't absolutely need a barn to cure it, either. If you've only got a few plants, you could do it in a variety of ways, though it is worth mentioning that curing and subsequent aging are critical to producing good smokable leaf.

592 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:08am

Apropos of nothing at all I have always considered it cosmic irony that the plans for the invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall consisting of Operations Olympic and Coronet) used the names of automobile models as the code names for the various beaches on Honshu.

593 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:12am

re: #581 avanti

If you study the growth of bonuses, you might rethink what is fair, and what is stockholder rape. If a CEO made billions in profit, and was paid even a 10 million dollar bonus I would not object. If he lost billions and was paid millions, I'd be concerned. If he lost billions and accepted the tax payers help and was paid millions, I'd demand OUR money back.

This is why I think stockholders should have more direct control over executives' salaries. Not the government.
Stockholders will be willing to reward those who make them money, but not those who drive the company into the toilet.

594 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:23am

I think we can all agree that 'Bambi is one big woodpeckerhead.

595 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:30am

re: #581 avanti

Pretty much the opposite can be said too. If I am paying taxes out the ass for stupid projects, for sanctuary cities, for overseas governments that want to kill me, I should be able to demand MY money back.

596 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:47am

re: #575 Conservative in Liberal Hands

Congress is making me SICK!

* * * **
NEW YORKERS--only hours left to vote NO CONFIDENCE against Obama, by electing Mr. Tedisco (R) in your 20th congressional district.

Vote TODAY New Yorkers, to fill seat vacated by Hillary Clinton's replacement, Kirsten Gillibrand.

CHANGE Congressional seat in New York TODAY.

597 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:04:58am

re: #583 Nevergiveup

I suspect 7th century photoshop.

598 Buck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:05:02am

re: #273 rsdavis

Our system oscillates, at time swinging toward deregulation and increased free market economy, at times swinging toward increased regulation and control. The excesses of one invariably lead to a public cry for the other, which then creates a new set of excesses which leads to a reversal.

Out of everything you said, I agree only with what I quoted. The Dems are putting a lot of eggs in one basket. When it doesn't work the way they want, the voter will kick them out.

599 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:05:09am

re: #557 capitalist piglet

And if "we" spot them abusing this, what do "we" do, avanti?

Throw the bums out. They were voted in to try something different, if they fail, they'll be gone.

600 seekeroftruth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:05:20am

re: #571 BigAl

On an optimistic note...this Barney Frank bill will never pass in the house or senate. At some point many Dems will realize that Barney is becoming somewhat demented.

Only if we make a big loud stink about this. The Dems have been hiding an awful lot of their "changes". Only a loud push back from the people is stopping some of this, ie AIG 90% tax, etc.....

601 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:05:21am

re: #582 buzzsawmonkey

The oil companies may cast their bread upon the Waters, that their companies may be returned after many days.

I'd like to see them walk on Waters........
/

602 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:05:30am

re: #594 SasquatchOnSteroids

I think we can all agree that 'Bambi is one big woodpeckerhead.

Eggzactly. But no sense brooding about it.

603 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:05:34am

re: #590 Diamond Bullet
Depression Garden? lol

604 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:05:38am
605 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:01am

re: #550 capitalist piglet

It's already in the budget bill. Cap and trade will let the government control the price of all energy in the country.

606 Unakite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:02am

re: #213 Right mind left

BLUMENTHAL: Well, it is against public policy. And it is unsanctioned by law.

This may have been pointed out before, but this is really scary. He is saying, in effect, not that people can do what they want as long as they don't break the law, but that people can't do anything unless it is specifically sanctioned (allowed) by law.

607 irongrampa  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:06am

re: #596 alegrias

And in a few minutes, I'll be off to cast my vote. Likely be a close race.

608 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:13am

re: #577 Killgore Trout

The world's oldest windmills

[Video]

You mean, world's oldest surviving windmills. The ancient Greeks had windmills, and I wouldn't be surprised if earlier civilizations had them too.

609 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:15am

re: #596 alegrias

* * * **
NEW YORKERS--only hours left to vote NO CONFIDENCE against Obama, by electing Mr. Tedisco (R) in your 20th congressional district.

Vote TODAY New Yorkers, to fill seat vacated by Hillary Clinton's replacement, Kirsten Gillibrand.

CHANGE Congressional seat in New York TODAY.

I've never lived there, and never has my family, but I tried to get my deceased parents in to vote. Apparently, deceased can only vote if they're registered Democrats.
/

610 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:30am

re: #591 looking closely
How about I use the same set up a pot head uses? I can get one to set it up for me. lol

611 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:32am

Crap.

I must be coming down with something. I am finding myself agreeing with Killgore a lot today. Even Avanti.

BBL.

612 lurking faith  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:42am

re: #364 Honorary Yooper

Duroplast, not cardboard. No idea why the cardboard myth still exists. Duroplast is a type of reinforced resin plastic.

Reinforced with recycled cotton, or wool. I've heard them referred to as cloth cars, which is more accurate than saying they're cardboard.

613 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:48am

re: #590 Diamond Bullet

Unfortunately, I think pretty soon we're all going to be growing a lot of things ourselves. I work in a corporate office in downtown DC, yet on the weekends here I am planting strawberries and potatoes in my freakin' back yard. Is there a pithy phrase I can use to hang my forced green thumbing on Obama? What's the opposite of a victory garden?

* * * *
RECESSION gardens. Get your Obama Recession garden going.

614 MikeAlv77  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:52am

re: #581 avanti

If you study the growth of bonuses, you might rethink what is fair, and what is stockholder rape. If a CEO made billions in profit, and was paid even a 10 million dollar bonus I would not object. If he lost billions and was paid millions, I'd be concerned. If he lost billions and accepted the tax payers help and was paid millions, I'd demand OUR money back.

you are missing the point. If I agree to pay the CEO 10 million and don't base it on performance then I am the idiot. Likewise, if I am the govt and agree to give the company billions with no strings, it is wrong for me to then change my mind and say "Sorry, there are strings attached".

615 KansasMom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:54am

re: #562 Kosh's Shadow

I would get 35+ in my 1999 Honda Civic when it was newer and gasoline was gasoline. (10% reduction for the 10% ethanol stuff)
And that is with the AC running. Got 42MPG on one long trip at a constant 70 or so.

My 1989 Geo Metro got 30mpg in the city and 50mpg on the highway. Yes, I was brave/stupid enough to take that little car on the highway.
Everytime I have trouble parking the big mommiemobile I drive now, I miss that little car...

616 badger1970  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:55am

re: #589 Guanxi88

How many times as a child I wanted Sylvester to put and end to that little big-footed, big-headed twerp. As an adult, I just laugh at Sly's incompetence.

617 irongrampa  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:59am

re: #609 Kosh's Shadow

And you have to reside in Chicago.

618 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:09am
619 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:18am

re: #602 Ford_Prefect

Eggzactly. But no sense brooding about it.

I'd like to see the press do a hatchet job on him......

620 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:24am

re: #593 Kosh's Shadow

This is why I think stockholders should have more direct control over executives' salaries. Not the government.
Stockholders will be willing to reward those who make them money, but not those who drive the company into the toilet.

Exactly - and this is a major fundamental change since in most corporations compensation decisions are effectively led from the Board of Directors. The challenge with this is that many Boards are made up of company executives and their 'friends / cronies' and are far from independent.

The shareholder, who has an ownership stake in the company, is the one that should provide the oversight on compensation - not some fascistic government approach to determine what is 'fair'.

621 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:56am

re: #604 buzzsawmonkey

How about if he lost money, accepted taxpayer help in which the payment of bonuses was guaranteed by the special intervention of the head of the Senate Banking Committee at the direction of the sitting President when the relevant bill was being drafted, and then these two worthies go back on their word and pretend to be "shocked" by what they intentionally included in the bill?

Don't be ridiculous. That could never happen.....

622 gymmom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:04am

re: #614 MikeAlv77

you are missing the point. If I agree to pay the CEO 10 million and don't base it on performance then I am the idiot. Likewise, if I am the govt and agree to give the company billions with no strings, it is wrong for me to then change my mind and say "Sorry, there are strings attached".

Are you implying that congress should have put a tad more thought into the bailouts?

623 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:05am

re: #581 avanti

Then let the stockholders deal with it.

624 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:31am

re: #591 looking closely

In addition to all of the above, Tobacco is currently grown in Maryland, Connecticut, Missouri, Massachusetts, Florida, Alabama, Kansas, Georgia, Indiana, Wisconsin, West Virginia, and probably others.

You don't absolutely need a barn to cure it, either. If you've only got a few plants, you could do it in a variety of ways, though it is worth mentioning that curing and subsequent aging are critical to producing good smokable leaf.

It would make an interesting science fair project. Think of the fun of horrifying the health teacher.

625 Ariel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:38am

re: #268 Nevergiveup

Will government produced cars only go in reverse?

No, they will only progress.

626 mattm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:01am

re: #25 Mr. In get Mr. Out

Why pay minimum wage? They do a worse job than the local kid manning the counter of the fast food chain.

Can we pay them 1 cent. That's all many of them deserve.

627 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:02am

re: #595 UberInfidel67

Pretty much the opposite can be said too. If I am paying taxes out the ass for stupid projects, for sanctuary cities, for overseas governments that want to kill me, I should be able to demand MY money back.

* * * *
Avoiding taxes is just another reason why people don't work in many socialist countries.

Capital flight, tax evasion, black market deals, anything to avoid showing "profit" or "income" is next.

From Breadbasket to Basketcase in one election.

628 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:18am

re: #581 avanti

If you study the growth of bonuses, you might rethink what is fair, and what is stockholder rape. If a CEO made billions in profit, and was paid even a 10 million dollar bonus I would not object. If he lost billions and was paid millions, I'd be concerned. If he lost billions and accepted the tax payers help and was paid millions, I'd demand OUR money back.

That is in the realm of what the stockholders of the company decide, not you, I or the government. This will (and trust me on this) give the government free reign to go back in time and change anything in a contract that they care to change. Nothing is safe with the way the words are written.

We will see bonuses go up and down with the polls. Companies will be put out of business due to unfair labor practice claims from unions when contracts can and will be re-negotiated at will by the government. In effect the US government will be running over 50% of the private businesses in the country right now.

629 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:01am

re: #600 seekeroftruth

Only if we make a big loud stink about this. The Dems have been hiding an awful lot of their "changes". Only a loud push back from the people is stopping some of this, ie AIG 90% tax, etc.....

That's the key because to Franks and others, they somehow believe that the 53-47% (effective) majority in the last Presidential election provides them with a mandate that is more appros to a 95%-5% plurality.

630 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:18am

re: #619 LGoPs

I'd like to see the press do a hatchet job on him......

That is pretty seedy of you.

631 Bill in TX  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:39am

Never happen. That is unless unions are exempted. "Void existing contracts?" The unions would never allow it.

In fact, that's probably the main reason why the automakers are being shoveled huge wads of cash instead of allowing the natural process of bankruptcy in the first place. Bankruptcy would permit them to renegotiate contracts with the unions. The Democrats, being in the union pocket, can never permit that.

Knowing that, of course, the automakers are gorging at the government teat, but as we saw with GM, there is a price to pay.

632 Caboose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:53am

Remember, the government does NOTHING well! (for clarification and to proactively suppress friendly fire, I do not consider the US military to be synonymous with the "gub'mint".)

633 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:58am

re: #584 Racer X

You want the government out of your business? Make good decisions and don't come begging for welfare from Uncle Sam.

Well put. When you lease a car for example, you agree to a bunch of rules. You need insurance, you are limited to mileage, you have to keep it maintained and in good condition. If you want to do as you please, pay cash. If you are a business and want to run it yourself, don't ask for a handout or you get rules to protect the tax payers investment.

634 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:19am

re: #631 Bill in TX
When you dance with the devil, you get hell to pay.

635 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:37am

re: #627 alegrias

Avoiding taxes is just another reason why people don't work in many socialist countries.

"As long as the state pretends to pay us we will pretend to work"

636 gmsc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:37am

Life under big government setting your salary and performance standards:

637 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:16am

re: #635 Athos

"As long as the state pretends to pay us we will pretend to work"

Soviet motivational slogan.

638 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:45am
639 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:05am

re: #610 UberInfidel67

How about I use the same set up a pot head uses? I can get one to set it up for me. lol


/You want to grow tobacco hydroponically inside a closet?

A bit more seriously, "grow your own" tobacco isn't practical for most people who lack both the expertise to grow the crop, as well as the specialized knowledge to cure the plant into nice tasty smokable leaf. But not only can it be done, I'd bet money its going to be a burgeoning industry over the next few years.

If all you wanted was the nicotine, you can extract that out of uncured leaf pretty easily, but you'd still have to measure it and spread it into something else you'd want to smoke.

640 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:41am
641 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:47am

re: #614 MikeAlv77

you are missing the point. If I agree to pay the CEO 10 million and don't base it on performance then I am the idiot. Likewise, if I am the govt and agree to give the company billions with no strings, it is wrong for me to then change my mind and say "Sorry, there are strings attached".

If you are talking about the AIG bonuses, I agree and so stated. Lots of hot air expended, no action taken.

642 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:51am

re: #548 MandyManners

If I loan my step brother money to pay his rent I'll make him agree to not visit crackwhores for a month.

You don't have the power to enforce that condition. The government does. And, there's a difference in that you would try to impose that condition BEFORE you gave the money unlike the government which is trying to do this retroactively.

Um, if the government cared and had that kind of power, wouldn't they be doing something to or for or about Ms/Mr Crackwhore their own self?

643 Muadib  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:18am

re: #570 KansasMom

Ah, simplicity. I also like your nic!

Thanks! Usually, keeping it simple keeps me out of trouble.

644 irongrampa  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:35am

Maybe OT, interesting nonetheless. In this rural community, barter and trade, in a minor way, has been a fact of life since forever.

Until THIS year. Becoming much more prevalent every where i go. This is admittedly anecdotal, but I get the impression people are genuinely worried about the direction of the economy.

Don't like that at all.

645 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:35am

OK, be back later, Avanti needs to work on a Avanti.

646 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:12am

re: #624 doppelganglander

It would make an interesting science fair project. Think of the fun of horrifying the health teacher.

Actually, in all seriousness, tremendous scientific work is being done with recombinant tobacco plants.

The plants themselves act as small factories, and their genetics have been extensively documented (thanks largely to grants donated by the Tobacco companies, who will always remain unthanked).

I don't want to get into details, but I actually drove past a tobacco farm about three hours ago. Growing a few plants is certainly doable. . .though maybe not worth the effort.

647 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:36am

A 19th century Mormon prophet prophesied that the US Constitution would hang by a thread.

648 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:42am

re: #633 avanti

But what is the responsibility of the government towards remedying actions they already took which damaged the free market and those companies? Without government interference in those markets, it is unlikely the crisis would have manifested itself to this degree.

Furthermore, there is a darwinian element in business where excessive risk and bad decisions do have ramifications.

There are companies that declined federal funds, and I am sure that if the full aspect of the rules / elements of government control were spelled out, more would have choosen to decline. The slippery slope is defining conditions after the fact and actively working to nullify existing legal contracts that are in place. The sanctity of the contract in our system has to remain in place.

649 jorline  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:02am

re: #581 avanti

If you study the growth of bonuses, you might rethink what is fair, and what is stockholder rape. If a CEO made billions in profit, and was paid even a 10 million dollar bonus I would not object. If he lost billions and was paid millions, I'd be concerned. If he lost billions and accepted the tax payers help and was paid millions, I'd demand OUR money back.

Avanti...key word is stockholders. Stockholders vote for the Board of Directors and the Board appoints the CEO. If the CEO doesn't make the company money the Board should fire him/her. If the Board doesn't take action the Stockholders should fire the Board. If the company doesn't turn a profit they go out of business.

Simple solution for these problems and the government is NOT the answer!

Stockholder get earning statements...read them and vote your shares.

650 Cato  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:49am

THIS IS GREAT!

I don't have to be a lawyer anymore because I can no longer guarantee what I draft will be enforced.

651 Unakite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #565 Nevergiveup

Well marry Paul?

Peter marry Paul? I thought it was Peter, Paul and Mary.

652 Wm T Sherman  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:28:08am

Barack Hussein Obama, constitutional scholar. There is no paradox here. There were U.S. scholars who intensively studied aerial photos of Tokyo and Berlin in 1944.

653 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:29:49am

Sure, why not. They already tell me how big my toilet can be. How much more invasive can we get.

/sarc

654 bruxellesblog  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:30:42am

re: #85 samsgran1948

re: #24 Golem Akbar

Next stop: MBA brain drain from the US to ...?..?

Golem: You've hit the nail on the head. The federal government has essentially "nationalized" business management.

Lord knows, for a few old timers around here, I've done my fair share of bitching and belly aching about belgium. However, this is a very important point.

I run my own consultancy. My corporate tax? 28% due to several new working capital tax deductions in place. Once I've pad that tax, I can invest. My capital gains tax? 0%. Yes, that is right, 0%.

In the US? Under Joseph Stalin Obama, my corporate tax will now be 39%. My capital gains tax? 15%-25% after 2011 for anything long term. So, total tax liability on an investment in the US? Now close to 50%, nearly double my tax liability in Belgium. (I won't even touch on the market effects that will take place on December 2010 before the new tax kicks in - talk about a sell-off trigger...).

There is no way in hell I'm setting up shop in the US anytime soon.

655 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:30:55am

re: #647 father_of_10

A 19th century Mormon prophet prophesied that the US Constitution would hang by a thread.

It's written on 100% cotton paper isn't it?

Maybe that's what he was talking about...

:) Or was it hemp....

656 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:32:54am

re: #646 looking closely

Actually, in all seriousness, tremendous scientific work is being done with recombinant tobacco plants.

The plants themselves act as small factories, and their genetics have been extensively documented (thanks largely to grants donated by the Tobacco companies, who will always remain unthanked).

I don't want to get into details, but I actually drove past a tobacco farm about three hours ago. Growing a few plants is certainly doable. . .though maybe not worth the effort.

The smell of drying tobacco when they hang it up after harvest is one of my favorite smells. Dunno what happens when it becomes a cigarette because that smells like ass, but just sayin'.

657 Ariel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:36:22am

Killgore Trout, Racer X, avanti, rsdavis, et al:

Two key problems:

1. Moral Hazard: If you bail companies out when they are failing, but you penalize them by setting pay schedules, people in charge will taker bigger risks to get out from under your thumb. The next time around, this problem will be worse. BTW, this is true even if you don't set pay schedules - just saving people from failure denies the market it's most powerful signal: failure.
2. Rule of Law: Actors rely on previous behavior of government. If the gov't no longer follows agreements it makes with non-gov't actors, you'll see a lot fewer people lining up when gov't needs help. This is related to the moral hazard problem. Geithner's PPIP requires investors to set the price when buying toxic assets, and promises, double plus promises, that excessive profits won't be taken back by the gov't. After what's already happened, who will believe them? People tend to believe that the future will be like the past, so if you set this kind of precedent, the future will take a hit.

658 jimc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:34am

Really, if you take how the government usually spends money, this will result in *more* overpaid and under achieving contracts...while our troops are still underpaid...

659 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:08am

re: #235 looking closely

If the sum is considerable, take it and leave the country with it (seriously).

Burying in the backyard (even proverbially) doesn't help you because the inevitable massive inflation that Obama's spending explosion will cause will erode all its value.

Has anyone even tried to estimate what the inflation rate will be?

660 Mirage  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:57am

re: #575 Conservative in Liberal Hands

Congress is making me SICK!

I've been sick of congress for years now.

661 Bonk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:57:26am

A question of Definitions:

Does "capital investment" have any limitations on the amount or method of investment? Bailouts are mentioned, but are not explicitly

Could the government simply buy stock in a company to assert the powers granted it in this bill? Or could a private company be legislated into bankruptcy and "bailed out" to take it over?

Seems to be a moderately terrifying prospect if the answers to the above are No, Yes, Yes.

662 smokin' hamster  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:02:01pm

I love the smell of corporativism in the morning.

Obama Derangement "syndrome" indeed. Is it a syndrome if it's a RATIONAL fear?

663 JustABill  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:06:37pm

re: #200 yesandno

I suggest we get on the phones, call the Congress and White House and let them know we will not tolerate this in any shape or form.

It is being shoved through the back door by that pillar of Congressional ethics, B. Frank (who is anything butt) and unless a large light is put on it, most people will never be aware of it 'till it is the law.

We can stop this....we have to...now.

Freudian slip?

664 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:08:41pm

I've seen one too many of these cheep puns, so I'm leaving for the next thread.

665 tjseagrove  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:09:20pm

"All your base are belong to us"

666 Rexatosis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:30:41pm

This bill covers almost every single private school and college in the country (got a computer with a federal grant, by definition that is a "capital investment,"). How many small businesses will this cover that have received some kind of federal loans (just think of the number of "minority-owned" businesses that have tapped into federal grant and loan programs over the last thirty-years, if a loan-balance is outstanding the feds have a current "capital investment" in the business.)? This is Italy under Mussolini crap. This is really scary sh*t.

667 Yashmak  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:34:50pm

I long for the good old days of Bush, where he just tried to expand federal powers to use against our ENEMIES. . .instead of ourselves.

668 xiphos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:36:48pm

Is everyone emailing, writing, faxing AND calling their congressmen and senators?

669 onthow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:59:52pm

"Egalitarians create the most dangerous inequality of all -- inequality of power. Allowing politicians to determine what all other human beings will be allowed to earn is one of the most reckless gambles imaginable. Like the income tax, it may start off being applied only to the rich but it will inevitably reach us all."
-- Thomas Sowell

670 see bs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:04:22pm

Barny Frank - FU@# YOU.

You should be paid NOTHING.

671 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:30:25pm

I wish barney frank would stop trying to sound like Sylvester!...

672 EaterOfFood  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:49:40pm

My congressman's only achievement was appearing at my school in the 8th grade.

Barney Frank, the cause of a good deal homophobia in this country, proposed this? What does that yammering pimp make in a year?

The market for "I Miss Bush" T-shirts is likely to grow each day.

673 Code Red 21  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:50:21pm

Are they only talking about companies that take bailout money? Or does this new road to heaven-on-earth include companies that take government reimbursement, for example, the health care industry?

674 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:13:43pm

re: #590 Diamond Bullet

Unfortunately, I think pretty soon we're all going to be growing a lot of things ourselves. I work in a corporate office in downtown DC, yet on the weekends here I am planting strawberries and potatoes in my freakin' back yard. Is there a pithy phrase I can use to hang my forced green thumbing on Obama? What's the opposite of a victory garden?

I'd call it an ObamagardenTM

675 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:14:05pm

re: #71 RaiderDan

It just got suddenly very cold in the room. I don't know why...

The power to void a contract is a very powerful thing indeed. Lest we all forget, the Constitution is a contract. Up to this point, I had pretty much dismissed the idea that Obama was socialist. Afterall, government services have existed for decades, loooong before I was brought into this world. Both democrat and republican alike have furthered the agenda of government services and as such, I never considered such services to be socialist in nature. At all. I still don't. That said, this legislation is unsettling, given that communism seeks to "level" the playing field with respect to employment and opportunity. If this goes into effect, this will set a dangerous mark for futher government intrusion. What's to stop this administration from insisting that certain industries MUST remain solvent - and to that end, the government has a right to impose restrictions on salary increases?

676 wordsworth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:14:59pm

Meanwhile, didn't Nancy Pelosi and Co. give themselves pay raises as part of the stimulus bill?

677 leww37334  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:29:04pm

Even the "crackpot" right wing media didn't think Obama would go this far.

Obamunissim is slowly taking over everything. How long before someone floats the "President for life" idea?

678 jimzinsocal  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:34:28pm

I was just reading at Bloomberg about company executives that are being held against their wishes by some labor group.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

And suddenly I realized how enlightened we were by comparison.
All we do is write unconstitutional tax law.
And have a President that likes media lynchings of corporate CEOs.

679 HighFlyingCrane  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:13:04pm

Is it too soon to start an Impeach Obama movement?

680 realwest  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:32:54pm

Sorry I'm late to this thread damnit, but this is the most serious over reaching by the FederalGovernment I've ever even HEARD of, much less been tried.

PLEASE EVERYONE - if you are an American Voter, please write to your member of the House of Representative and the US Senate NOW - don't wait until it gets to a committe. Tell them to vote NO - to the ""Pay for Performance Act of 2009," bill. PLEASE.
Your house of representative member's e-mail and fax number is at [Link: www.house.gov...] and your two Senators e-mail and fax numbers can be reached at [Link: www.senate.gov...]
Thank you all very much.

681 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:32:15pm

re: #308 looking closely

I do tend to agree with you. However, it is possible that allowing so many US institutions to fail would result in a much greater economic disaster. Given that the government (under both Bush and Obama) did opt for intervention, one would have hoped for better oversight and regulation of how that money is used. Having failed that, it seems reasonable to attempt to provide oversight and regulation after the fact.

682 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:33:11pm

re: #300 wrenchwench

Please elaborate.

683 Ariel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:14pm

re: #674 Conservative in Liberal Hands

Soon we might all suffer from an Obamageddon.

684 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:22pm

re: #314 baier

Perhaps you would care to articulate your position a little more thoroughly? Do you object to the specifics of the government oversight in this case, to government oversight for the bailout money as a general principle, or to the bailout altogether?

Idiot or not, I have an opinion and will function as a citizen based on my opinions. So if you want a different governmental outcome, perhaps you should try to convince me and other fellow citizens of the wisdom of your position so that we will collectively convince our congressmen or select new ones.

685 Wendya  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:57:53pm

re: #684 rsdavis

Perhaps you would care to articulate your position a little more thoroughly? Do you object to the specifics of the government oversight in this case, to government oversight for the bailout money as a general principle, or to the bailout altogether?

Idiot or not, I have an opinion and will function as a citizen based on my opinions. So if you want a different governmental outcome, perhaps you should try to convince me and other fellow citizens of the wisdom of your position so that we will collectively convince our congressmen or select new ones.


Perhaps you'd like to explain to us why you believe the federal government is empowered by law to float loans to failing companies, demand that their leadership be fired and place federal stooges in to run those companies.

Do you not understand economic fascism or do you just not give a flying fuck?

686 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:07:00pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

I do think that unsupportable bonuses, salaries and perks should be subject to oversight. That is what the boards of companies are supposed to do, but too often don't. The CEO of company A is on the board of company B, whose CEO is on company A's board. So the member of the board A approves excessive compensation packages with golden parachutes, knowing that the CEO will return the favor as a member of board B.

It is a fact that US corporate officers earn 10-20 times more than European or Asian corporate officers, in terms of officer to general worker salary ratios.

If the government had not bailed out the companies involved, they would be bankrupt (that was the argument the companies put forward why the bailout was needed). If the companies went bankrupt, it is unlikely the corporate officers would collect bonuses, and stock options would be worthless. So the corporate officers are way ahead by keeping the company afloat, even if they have to take a pay hit.

Given the number of Wall Street firms that have gone out of business, and the number that have downsized, you don't think there is a glut of unemployed people with a lot of Wall Street experience capable of replacing the executives that brought their companies to the brink of bankruptcy?

687 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:47pm

re: #417 Charles

I'm the last person to scream "The sky is falling! We're doomed!" I do think something needs to be done, and I agree that if the government is going to bail out companies, it's not completely unreasonable to expect some quid pro quo.

But this legislation goes WAY too far. When the government gives itself this much power (i.e., to void existing contracts for ALL employees, retroactively) it's very disturbing, and just packed full of potential for abuse.

Which is why I suggested giving it some time to see if, in fact, the abuse occurs. Potential abuse is just that- only potential.

I think the Obama administration was surprised by the anger toward the million dollar bonuses and hadn't provided enough oversight with the original bailout, and got burned. Now they are being careful to prevent future abuse of the system by closing potential loopholes such as giving a million dollar perk in lieu of bonus, giving large bonuses to a spouse of the CEO, etc.

688 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:13pm

re: #598 Buck

re: #598 Buck

Out of everything you said, I agree only with what I quoted. The Dems are putting a lot of eggs in one basket. When it doesn't work the way they want, the voter will kick them out.

"I, for one, want some say in how my $10,000 will be used by the companies that have been so mismanaged that they would be bankrupt without this bailout money."

You don't agree with this?

689 rsdavis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:38pm

re: #685 Wendya

I guess I believe the government can make loans to corporations because it has done so on other occasions. Just like it institutes many programs for the public welfare. Just like it prints money, and determines how much to print.

I take it that your objection is to the loans in the first place, money given by the Bush admin. first and now the Obama admin. Given that the money was already given to the companies, should the government attempt oversight after the fact, or walk away from it, leaving the corporations to do with the money whatever they want?

(I would appreciate it if you would refrain from using vulgar language in your response- I am not used to it and find it distracts from the ideas expressed.)

690 Sosigado  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:04:38pm

This insanity has got to be stopped, and it has to be stopped NOW. The thing that troubles me most is that nobody seems to be willing or able to do a damned thing about it. Yes, there's a gathering sense of outrage in certain circles, but no definitive action is being taken whatsoever at this point to thwart this suicidal march towards unfettered socialism. Have too many of us just given up the will to fight?

691 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:49:01pm

re: #687 rsdavis

Which is why I suggested giving it some time to see if, in fact, the abuse occurs. Potential abuse is just that- only potential.

I think the Obama administration was surprised by the anger toward the million dollar bonuses and hadn't provided enough oversight with the original bailout, and got burned. Now they are being careful to prevent future abuse of the system by closing potential loopholes such as giving a million dollar perk in lieu of bonus, giving large bonuses to a spouse of the CEO, etc.

Thank you for your level-headed perspective on this. It's so easy, to scream "SOCIALISM!" at the drop of hat. And while I am personally not comfortable with the Federal Govt's self-granted power to void existing contracts, in retrospect, I should have taken another breath before posting.

Glad to have you aboard.


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