California Parents Buying Anti-Vaccination Hoaxes

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If you had any doubt that bad craziness is on the rise in America, here’s an LA Times report on the increasing number of California parents who refuse to let their children be vaccinated, because of pseudo-scientific fear-mongering by fringe groups.

A rising number of California parents are choosing to send their children to kindergarten without routine vaccinations, putting hundreds of elementary schools in the state at risk for outbreaks of childhood diseases eradicated in the U.S. years ago.

Exemptions from vaccines — which allow children to enroll in public and private schools without state-mandated shots — have more than doubled since 1997, according to a Times analysis of state data obtained last week.

The rise in unvaccinated children appears to be driven by affluent parents choosing not to immunize. Many do so because they fear the shots could trigger autism, a concern widely discredited in medical research.

There is absolutely no evidence that measles-mumps-rubella vaccine (MMR) causes autism, and parents who buy into this madness are endangering not only their own children, but everyone else’s kids as well. This is a very scary phenomenon.

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1194 comments
1 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:45:06pm

Anti-science is the new cool.

2 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:45:39pm

Gonna' have to adjust the chemtrail formula to stop this nuttiness.

3 mattm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:45:47pm

Stupid wanna be hippies.

4 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:46:24pm

One of the worst promoters of this evil crap is World Net Daily, by the way.

5 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:47:21pm

I think Don Imus's wife believes this nonsense.

6 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:48:13pm

Let's tally up the modern anti-science manias:

- Creationism
- Anthropogenic Global Warming Catastrophism
- Anti-Vaccine Phobia
- 9/11 Truthism
- Every Lysenkoist government program
...etc.

...What is this world coming to?

Notice how the craziness spans the political spectrum. It's everywhere, people.

7 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:48:15pm
8 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:48:42pm

My sign would read:
NO SHOES, NO SHIRT, NO SHOTS = NO SERVICE!

9 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:48:44pm

The mercury preservative was removed years ago, but autism rates haven't gone down, so that has been eliminated as a cause.
Welcome to the new, 3rd world US.

10 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:49:24pm

This dangerous trend is very entrenched in the liberal/organic/natural/yuppie group. If you even suggest that mercury vaccine preservative is an unlikely cause of autism to one of these, prepare yourself.

11 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:49:50pm

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

Great--Al Gore is trying to convince us we're in the Medieval Warm Period, and now we're gearing up for a redux of the Black Death.

Don't worry; 0 will organize squads to carry your dead.

Youtube Video
12 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:49:56pm

If this madness keeps up I wonder how far away we are from some real bad epidemics and pandemics.

/Hmmm wonder if this is a plot by the ZPG movement

13 marge45b  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:49:57pm

My kids are ASD and I still went ahead and got the vaccines. They do them spread out to once a month to lessen the exposure but none of the vaccines today have the mercury anymore.

14 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:50:00pm

re: #5 Tarkus289

I think Don Imus's wife believes this nonsense.

Look who she married?

15 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:50:05pm

re: #2 jcm

Gonna' have to adjust the chemtrail formula to stop this nuttiness.

Adding to the list:

- Chemtrails
- Nation of Islam's "white people are a failed experiment that escaped from the lab 6,000 years ago"

16 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:50:27pm

Fluoride any one?

17 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:50:31pm

They risk not only their own children but the health of other people's children.

My nephew has autism. It wasn't vaccinations that caused this, but more likely my sister's poor diet as no other children in the family have shown a genetic reason this would have happened.

Causes of autism

18 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:50:36pm

I have a massive round scar on my arm, that must have hurt very much when I received it, but except for a few flaws, I am not autistic.

19 mattm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:50:44pm

Could the school not let their kid in if they are not vaccinated?

20 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:51:02pm

No free health=care for the unvaccinated !
People make this crap up as some weak excuse for little Jimmy being a
hyper-under-acheiver.
And then even dumber ones believe it.

21 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:51:06pm

re: #10 pat

This dangerous trend is very entrenched in the liberal/organic/natural/yuppie group. If you even suggest that mercury vaccine preservative is an unlikely cause of autism to one of these, prepare yourself.

That's just not true! I know conservatives who are doing this.

22 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:51:12pm

re: #4 Charles

One of the worst promoters of this evil crap is World Net Daily, by the way.

That may be, but this belief is very much entrenched upon secular libs. I do not see a corresponding audience among conservatives, as the article implies.

23 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:51:43pm

Surely any parent with half a brain would seek and be governed by the advice of the child's paediatrician.

24 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:51:46pm

re: #22 pat

NO- It's not!

25 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:51:52pm

Charles -

Goes to show the "Old Maxim."

When you believe in NOTHING - You can fall for ANYTHING.

-S-

26 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:52:49pm

I despise idiots. And when they have children...well, I really don't know what to say. Freedom is great, but it comes at a price. In this situation it is the children of the idiots who pay.

27 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:52:53pm

Maybe vaccines have something to do with all these people turning into liberals?
/maybe,not sure,possibly?

28 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:53:13pm

re: #15 zombie

Adding to the list:
- Nation of Islam's "white people are a failed experiment that escaped from the lab 6,000 years ago"

Really? We're the killer B's?

29 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:53:26pm

...... vaccination scars are sexy..........a right of passage..........civilized......and just plain common sense.

30 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:53:54pm

re: #22 pat

That may be, but this belief is very much entrenched upon secular libs. I do not see a corresponding audience among conservatives, as the article implies.

You're simply wrong about that. This particular crazy idea completely crosses the left-right barrier. There are just as many 'conservatives' who are doing it.

31 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:54:26pm

re: #22 pat

You have such a bias against liberals that you blind yourself to idiocy on the right. Stupidity know no ideological barriers. This dangerous trend is quite prevalent on the right.

I will phone NYNana right now and she will tell you about a conversation she had with a republican who refused to listen to her about the dangerous of not vaccinating her child it you want me to. Would you believe Nana if she told you?

32 marge45b  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:54:44pm

The rate of autism has increased but I think it has to do with diagnosing it. More knowledge and Doctors are looking for it.

33 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:54:50pm

*ahem..

Well, let me first say that I do believe that vaccines are helpful they do GREAT things..

However, I am a parent myself and I have had to watch my child receive MULTIPLE vaccines all at once.

CURRENTLY he is being tested under the umbrella of autism.

34 Lee Coller  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:54:57pm

I believe you tend to find this on the fringes of the right and the left. I recall reading about some hippie community where an extremely high percentage of kids in school were not vaccinated.

Reading between the lines on the LA Times story would seem to indicate those on the extreme right (non-Catholic private schools).

However, this doesn't sound like someone on the right:

"It seems like a social contract," Cotler said on a recent morning at the school, where parents agree to ban TV on school nights and the children create their own textbooks. "If we all stop immunizing, that has serious ramifications as far as society is concerned."

35 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:01pm

The story I love telling that relates to this perfectly is the Nigerian case. In that, polio was on the way out .. nearly eradicated bar a few small areas in Africa .. and a couple in Indonesia. But the Nigerians decided that the polio vaccine was an abhorrent measure created by the Americans to sterilise good hardworking Africans. So they denied the access and use of polio vaccines in the state of Nigeria.

As of today, the only remaining strain of polio can be traced back to the late 90s strains emenating from Nigeria. It has been spread by travellers back to Pakistan .. Indonesia and Southwestern Asia.

Their ignorance will one day affect someone you know.

36 MPH  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:03pm

re: #4 Charles

One of the worst promoters of this evil crap is World Net Daily, by the way.

That is what I was going to ask...who is behind this effort?

37 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:11pm

I have become numb. I really don't care anymore what happens to these stupid people and their inevitably stupid children.

38 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:13pm

This is also a problem in some Islamic country's. They actually believe that vaccines cause sterility, inflicted by Zionists of course. Polio has reappeared in some of these places. Gah!

39 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:17pm

And of course, in some countries, vaccines are considered un-islamic so children die needlessly.

40 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:46pm

What drive vaccine proponents nuts is that children are dying because of the crazy anti-vaccine hysteria. Don Imus is one offender. There are several others.

41 Lee Coller  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:58pm

re: #22 pat

That may be, but this belief is very much entrenched upon secular libs. I do not see a corresponding audience among conservatives, as the article implies.

I do, see my #34

42 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:55:59pm

Is there a correlation between autism and the increasing age of first-time mothers?

43 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:56:00pm

Last time I said this here, a lot of people jumped down my throat, but I'm going to say it again anyway:

Autism is a real disease. The people who have it really do have it.

However, it is very rare.

Thousands of kids are being falsely diagnosed with autism or semi-autism these days, both to please the pharmaceutical companies, and to reassure the moms who can't cope with their children who are not acting entirely "normally."

But as soon as anyone points out that autism is being over-diagnosed, they're accused of being insensitive. People these days apparently crave any kind of medical "explanation" for the difficulties of parenting a problem child.

So they glom on to this vaccine hoax as a way of absolving themselves of any guilt.

Let's help the real autistics. Let's even help the "problem kids" in whatever way we can. But let's not saddle them with an inaccurate medical label. And let's definitely not embrace craziness in the process.

44 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:56:07pm
45 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:56:14pm

I believe this will be the basis for giant class action lawsuits to put the pharmaceutical industry out of business, allowing the government to take them over.

46 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:56:21pm

why are children without the vaccinations allowed into the schools? (why allow "exemptions"? This may also be a "problem" with too lax administrators.)

47 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:56:32pm

This is lunacy of the highest order. I don't understand how schools even let kids in who can't show proof of vaccination.

48 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:56:42pm

And it appears trial attorneys have fanned the flames.

49 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:57:48pm

re: #32 marge45b

Multiple scientific studies confirm that there is no evidence-- none-- of any causal connection between vaccination and autism.

50 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:57:55pm

These are the same people who buy into global warming and the "crisis" of the day. Truly weak people who are easily led.....

Oh wait we just had an election didnt we? Now we know who to blame.

51 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:58:06pm

re: #42 Mr. In get Mr. Out

Is there a correlation between autism and the increasing age of first-time mothers?

I am 28 and with a child that falls under the umbrella, or at least in speech and touch.
I don't think age is the issue. My mother had her last child at 38, he is smart.. too smart.

52 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:58:18pm

Here is a list of these "support groups".
[Link: www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com...]

53 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:58:51pm

re: #39 alegrias

And of course, in some countries, vaccines are considered un-islamic so children die needlessly.

What a loss. Children die without getting the chance to kill Jews.
/

54 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:58:56pm

re: #45 Tarkus289

I believe this will be the basis for giant class action lawsuits to put the pharmaceutical industry out of business, allowing the government to take them over.

* * * *
I knew a lawyer who made a fortune prosecuting the US government over the Swine Flu vaccines in the 1970s, which some folks claimed credibly enough to win huge awards, that they developed Guillaine-Barre Syndrome.

55 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:59:10pm

re: #23 Spare O'Lake

Surely any parent with half a brain would seek and be governed by the advice of the child's paediatrician.

Not really. Some supposedly intelligent parents, far too many, swallow this hoax hook line and sinker, and suspect that their child's pediatrician is part of this cabal of medical providers that is in denial of these connections. Every medical practitioner I know is absolutely dismayed at this phenomenon.

56 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:59:42pm

Pat- Nana is eating dinner, but she is completely on my side on this and will be here later to tell you so.

57 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 3:59:52pm

Is Octomom one of the duped?

58 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:00:01pm

re: #18 Tarkus289

I have a massive round scar on my arm, that must have hurt very much when I received it, but except for a few flaws, I am not autistic.

That would be your smallpox vaccination, which I don't believe ever had any mercury preservative, nor was it likely painful.

Hey I didn't know they'd removed the mercury from vaccinations, and although it may have been low risk, I'm glad to hear it.

And I've heard some accelerated vacination schedules for kids, that is probably too much - just as they had some schedules for new soldiers, which was probably too quick and too unselective. Don't want to overburden the system, unclear what happens if you do.

But to skip them entirely, is idiocy. What the heck, good Darwin test, though it does endanger even those who are vaccinated, somewhat.

59 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:00:15pm

re: #54 alegrias

Probably made more than the victims made.

60 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:00:15pm

re: #46 J.S.

why are children without the vaccinations allowed into the schools? (why allow "exemptions"? This may also be a "problem" with too lax administrators.)

I remember having to fill out a form with my vaccinations when I attended school.

61 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:00:16pm

re: #43 zombie

Last time I said this here, a lot of people jumped down my throat, but I'm going to say it again anyway:

Autism is a real disease. The people who have it really do have it.

However, it is very rare.

Thousands of kids are being falsely diagnosed with autism or semi-autism these days, both to please the pharmaceutical companies, and to reassure the moms who can't cope with their children who are not acting entirely "normally."

But as soon as anyone points out that autism is being over-diagnosed, they're accused of being insensitive. People these days apparently crave any kind of medical "explanation" for the difficulties of parenting a problem child.

So they glom on to this vaccine hoax as a way of absolving themselves of any guilt.

Let's help the real autistics. Let's even help the "problem kids" in whatever way we can. But let's not saddle them with an inaccurate medical label. And let's definitely not embrace craziness in the process.

The very same thing can be said about "bi-polarism".

62 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:00:32pm

For the safety of everyone, State Legislature's need pass laws (with teeth) mandating vaccinations, no exemptions, no exceptions, period. If you don't vaccinate your kids you're guilty of child abuse. 24 long months in the state slammer should clear your mind.

63 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:00:35pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

Pat- Nana is eating dinner, but she is completely on my side on this and will be here later to tell you so.

LOL. I have to listen to my sister on the subject. She is an educator.

64 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:00:58pm

re: #63 pat

Nana is a retired RN.

65 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:01:03pm

This isn't exactly a sensitive thing to say, but...

This is natural selection in action. The parents that buy into this crock are likely to wipe out their contribution to the gene pool. Too bad the innocent kids have to suffer for their parents' stupidity.

66 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:01:20pm

Maybe the Health Department needs to start a campaign about why it is best to vaccinate children rather than not. I admit, as a young parent, after a few of the baby shots, I wondered if it was really necessary. I educated myself and found the benefits outweigh the risks. This is the perfect time for such a campaign.

67 pat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:01:21pm

re: #56 Sharmuta

I must get back to work. Lunch here. But later.

68 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:01:58pm

Every time I see the term "bad craziness," I remember fondly reading "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter S. Thompson.

I remember doing a dramatic reading from that book in a freshman speech class in college back in the mid 1970s.

69 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:02:00pm

re: #55 CyanSnowHawk

Not really. Some supposedly intelligent parents, far too many, swallow this hoax hook line and sinker, and suspect that their child's pediatrician is part of this cabal of medical providers that is in denial of these connections. Every medical practitioner I know is absolutely dismayed at this phenomenon.

In California some doctors will tell you to hold the vaccines. The pediatrician I have now says "We can do five today, five is fine."
As a parent you start to question and ask yourself "is this really okay?"

The vaccines you all are talking about aren't ALL the vaccines a child GETS.
I wish another parent would come to the defense.

70 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:02:03pm

And in a semi-related story (Kooks): "(CNN) -- A Maryland woman involved with a group described as a religious cult pleaded guilty in the starvation death of her son, but insisted that the charges be dropped when he is resurrected."

71 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:02:03pm

re: #65 NukeAtomrod

This isn't exactly a sensitive thing to say, but...

This is natural selection in action. The parents that buy into this crock are likely to wipe out their contribution to the gene pool. Too bad the innocent kids have to suffer for their parents' stupidity.

Do the hamsters know you are travelling with a nuclear football?

72 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:02:52pm

re: #70 Timbre

And in a semi-related story (Kooks): "(CNN) -- A Maryland woman involved with a group described as a religious cult pleaded guilty in the starvation death of her son, but insisted that the charges be dropped when he is resurrected."

her name was leaked...Mother Mary

73 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:02:58pm

Which god damn vaccination is it that makes little kids want to stay up past their bedtimes?
/

74 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:03:00pm

re: #51 cichco

I am 28 and with a child that falls under the umbrella, or at least in speech and touch.
I don't think age is the issue. My mother had her last child at 38, he is smart.. too smart.

I know it can't be entirely attributed to age because my mother was 39 and my father 41 when I was born. But with increased age, risk of complications may rise.

75 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:03:01pm

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

76 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:03:25pm

I wonder if any of these parents are also ones who demand that peanuts and peanut butter be banned from schools.......

77 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:03:45pm

re: #57 Macker

Is Octomom one of the duped?

* * * *
Her test-tube children's disabilities were cause by her taking too many fertility shots from freakish unscrupulous fertility physicians and having too many blastocyst baby embryos implanted by syringe at one time.

Octomom is nothing if not a shot freak, including BOTOX to her pouffy lips. Does she even know it's form of Botulism she's putting in her body?

California "free" medicine, what a place.

78 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:03:49pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

Yes .. in about 120 years .. you'll be dead. As a direct result of playing with mercury. Oh yeh .. and old age.

79 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:03:55pm

re: #57 Macker

Is Octomom one of the duped?

I sent you an email.

80 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:01pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

You still have fingers? :)

81 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:01pm

re: #30 Charles

You're simply wrong about that. This particular crazy idea completely crosses the left-right barrier. There are just as many 'conservatives' who are doing it.

As someone raised in California and raised children there..You could not enroll your children without the shot records from your doctor..Period.
Now I read there are exemption rules that have doubled since 1997?
That's just crazy..
It's not fair to say this...The only family we knew that would not vaccine their kids and home schooled them was very very religious.. Do not take that as anything other than that...That's the only people in Napa I knew that didn't vaccinate their kids..
A loving parent takes care of their kids and gives them the best odds to survive this world.

82 midwestgak  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:09pm

I got a vaccination with a thin glass rod poked into the skin of my upper thigh as a little one (others got their's in the upper arm). I don't remember what it was for.

Also, I remember drinking a sweet mixture from a tiny paper cup in elementary school as another vaccination. Polio I think. Anyone?

83 docremulac  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:12pm

Killing people with stupid-chic has been all the rage with the beautiful people for decades. The eradication of DDT for instance has resulted in more deaths in 3rd world countries through malaria than war and famine combined.

Malaria: A leading cause of death worldwide

Just a for instance. Liberals don't shed a tear over millions dead if they aren't instructed to by their thought-masters, especially if they're the cause of it.

And as far as vaccines go, here's a little insight into the insanity of the liberal mind:

"A vaccine might save millions of lives, but what about the dozens killed by them, all while drug companies are making money selling them?"

84 brookly red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:21pm

re: #70 Timbre

And in a semi-related story (Kooks): "(CNN) -- A Maryland woman involved with a group described as a religious cult pleaded guilty in the starvation death of her son, but insisted that the charges be dropped when he is resurrected."

/sounds fair to me...

85 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:26pm

re: #70 Timbre

And in a semi-related story (Kooks): "(CNN) -- A Maryland woman involved with a group described as a religious cult pleaded guilty in the starvation death of her son, but insisted that the charges be dropped when he is resurrected."

Hey, that would get her off. Resurrected boy, next Oprah.

86 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:27pm

re: #68 _RememberTonyC

Every time I see the term "bad craziness," I remember fondly reading "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter S. Thompson.

I remember doing a dramatic reading from that book in a freshman speech class in college back in the mid 1970s.

Ever read Fear and Loathing On The Campaign Trail? Even better!

At his best, HST was something.

87 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:32pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

Eventually. Everyone dies.

88 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:04:56pm

re: #47 JammieWearingFool

This is lunacy of the highest order. I don't understand how schools even let kids in who can't show proof of vaccination.

Some don't

89 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:05:02pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

Undoubtedly.

90 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:05:40pm

From Centers for Disease Control [Link: www.cdc.gov...]

"Because signs of autism may appear around the same time children receive the MMR vaccine, some parents may worry that the vaccine causes autism. Vaccine safety experts, including experts at CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), agree that MMR vaccine is not responsible for recent increases in the number of children with autism. In 2004, a report by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that there is no link between autism and MMR vaccine, and that there is no link between autism and vaccines that contain thimerosal as a preservative.

MMR Vaccine Safety Research

Many carefully performed scientific studies have found no link between MMR vaccine and autism. These studies include:

* A September 2008 case-control study published in Public Library of Science (PLoS) was conducted in 2004-2008 to determine whether results from an earlier study that claimed to find measles virus RNA in the intestinal tissue of a specific group of autistic children could be confirmed. The results could not be confirmed, and no link between MMR and autism was found.

* An April 2006 study conducted by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD) of NIH and the CDC assessed data from 351 children with autism spectrum disorders and 31 typically-developing children. The study did not find a link between MMR vaccination and autism. The results were pubished in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders.

* A February 2004 case-control study examined the possible relationship between exposure to the MMR vaccine and autism in Atlanta, Georgia. The results were published in Pediatrics.

* A November 2002 study by CDC and the Danish Medical Research Council that followed more than 500,000 children over 7 years and found no association between MMR vaccination and autism. The results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine."

91 Phocid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:05:56pm

I live in a community on the California coast which is populated by a high proportion of ex-hippies, all lefties and lib-labs, who we refer to as the Nice People. Some are quite middle class and respectable with pricy homes overlooking the Pacific. I have had two women friends die of breast cancer while undergoing quack "natural" treatments. Every third person around here is a "healer" and of course the paranoia is that doctors just want to keep you sick, poison you and cut you for their own profit and the profit of the drug companies, and naturally they think that doctors are suppressing the "real" cures for diseases. California is as nutty as they say, with apologies to the actual reasonable people who live here.

92 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:05:56pm

re: #36 MPH

That is what I was going to ask...who is behind this effort?

There are many that are behind it, but not the least of those are parents with autistic children trying to find something, anything, that can help explain what happened to their kids. This breaks my heart and stirs my anger at the others that promote this. As long as it is unclear how it develops, there will be some that grasp at this straw.

93 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:06:17pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

Do you sometimes have headaches, indigestion? Sometimes feel confused, depressed? Are there some parts of your body that just don't look right?

Well, at least you have an excuse, what about me?

/

94 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:06:23pm

re: #83 docremulac

Killing people with stupid-chic has been all the rage with the beautiful people for decades. The eradication of DDT for instance has resulted in more deaths in 3rd world countries through malaria than war and famine combined.

Malaria: A leading cause of death worldwide

Just a for instance. Liberals don't shed a tear over millions dead if they aren't instructed to by their thought-masters, especially if they're the cause of it.

And as far as vaccines go, here's a little insight into the insanity of the liberal mind:

"A vaccine might save millions of lives, but what about the dozens killed by them, all while drug companies are making money selling them?"

What we really need is a vaccine aginast liberalism......

95 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:06:46pm

Again -- the anti-vaccination crowd is NOT only liberals.

96 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:06:56pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?


Na N No nod nio poe noip
Nope ....You'll be fi fn i fmi fin fine

97 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:07:03pm

re: #91 Phocid

I live in a community on the California coast which is populated by a high proportion of ex-hippies, all lefties and lib-labs, who we refer to as the Nice People. Some are quite middle class and respectable with pricy homes overlooking the Pacific. I have had two women friends die of breast cancer while undergoing quack "natural" treatments. Every third person around here is a "healer" and of course the paranoia is that doctors just want to keep you sick, poison you and cut you for their own profit and the profit of the drug companies, and naturally they think that doctors are suppressing the "real" cures for diseases. California is as nutty as they say, with apologies to the actual reasonable people who live here.

it's John Lennon's fault

98 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:07:13pm

I had a friend that was crippled with polio. I was convinced. Later on my ex-wife went on an anti-vaccination kick, claiming it was part of her "religion".

After the divorce I got the kids vaccinated. Polio, mumps, measles, small pox . . . these are bad things

99 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:07:17pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

So did I. Anyone does that today will be visited by the special decontamination squad in full airtight suits, at $5000 per hour. A hell of a good business to be in.

100 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:07:29pm

re: #71 Buster Bunny

Do the hamsters know you are travelling with a nuclear football?

Sorry. I don't get the reference. A quick google search turned up nothing.

101 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:07:32pm

re: #86 itellu3times

Ever read Fear and Loathing On The Campaign Trail? Even better!

At his best, HST was something.

I read that. Do you recall the section when he got stoned in a Miami Beach hotel room & went for a moonlight swim? He damn near drowned.

102 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:07:34pm

Some of you must have missed my comment above, because some of the worst anti-vax garbage is being promoted by one of the most right-wing media sources in America, Weird Nut Drooly.

103 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:07:34pm

I have also eaten lead paint, as a child, removed asbestos with and without a mask, as an adult, and various other dangerous things, I will probably die in a freak cotton ball accident.

104 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:08:12pm

re: #94 LGoPs

What we really need is a vaccine aginast liberalism......

I can't ssem to tipe today.......
Sheesh.

105 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:08:30pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

With long-term exposure, you could develop "Mad Hatter's" disease, i.e. mercury poisoning. Symptoms include the shakes, and incoherent, rambling speech as the mercury destroys your nervous system.

106 Photon Cowboy  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:08:43pm

re: #82 midwestgak

I think the one with the glass rod was for smallpox. I do remember standing in the gym being scared to death of that darn rod. I think that was in 1961 and I got mine in the arm.

107 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:08:49pm

re: #82 midwestgak

I got a vaccination with a thin glass rod poked into the skin of my upper thigh as a little one (others got their's in the upper arm). I don't remember what it was for.

Also, I remember drinking a sweet mixture from a tiny paper cup in elementary school as another vaccination. Polio I think. Anyone?

The poke was smallpox. Later went to a little pointy stamp kind of thing.

The sweet was the Sabin polio vaccination, followed a few years after the injected Salk vaccination.

108 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:08:53pm

re: #99 Naso Tang

It was fun, wasn't it?

109 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:08:56pm

re: #104 LGoPs

I can't ssem to tipe today.......
Sheesh.

Must be those mercury fillings?
/

110 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:08pm

re: #103 Tarkus289

I have also eaten lead paint, as a child, removed asbestos with and without a mask, as an adult, and various other dangerous things, I will probably die in a freak cotton ball accident.

Or trip on a down feather and hit your head on a pillow.

111 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:21pm

re: #93 itellu3times

Do you sometimes have headaches, indigestion? Sometimes feel confused, depressed? Are there some parts of your body that just don't look right?

Yep, yep, yep, yep.......and let's not go there.

112 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:27pm

re: #95 Charles

Again -- the anti-vaccination crowd is NOT only liberals.

No .. whats happened is that various groups with agendas are pumping out the 'big corporate conspiracy' theories and whether its one side or the other, people get mouthfuls of it in various conversations. So some people hear about mercury in vaccinations .. or someone who went bad after a vaccination. Right or left .. its going to affect how you approach the whole concept of vaccination.

And whether it has ANY legitimacy at all .. has NEVER been called into question.

113 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:32pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?


Well I did that in 1960 and am still here. Heck we used to play with free mercury and then go and eat lunch without washing our hands.

Oh and we survived the "duck and cover" the Russians are gonna drop Nukes on us at school everyday also.

114 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:32pm

re: #103 Tarkus289

I have also eaten lead paint, as a child, removed asbestos with and without a mask, as an adult, and various other dangerous things, I will probably die in a freak cotton ball accident.

When I was in elementary school, while in line in the halls and stairs, we'd chip the asbestos insulation off the radiator pipes.

115 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:49pm

re: #104 LGoPs

I can't ssem to tipe today.......
Sheesh.

Jeez. I did it again.

116 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:52pm

re: #68 _RememberTonyC

Every time I see the term "bad craziness," I remember fondly reading "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter S. Thompson.

I remember doing a dramatic reading from that book in a freshman speech class in college back in the mid 1970s.

Hey you!
Did you get a chance to read Bill Simmon's mailbag on ESPN today?
Funnier than heck

117 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:09:56pm

re: #95 Charles

Again -- the anti-vaccination crowd is NOT only liberals.

I'm a little surprised that we have had how many months of discussion about the anti-science movement on the right, and yet people are chalking this up to liberals? Stunning.

118 callahan23  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:00pm

re: #25 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

Goes to show the "Old Maxim."

When you believe in NOTHING - You can fall for ANYTHING.

-S-

Then I am the exemption. I am an atheist and I don't ever fall for such crap. Yet relatives of mine are new-age and they are all against gene-food and against vaccines.

119 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:01pm

Charles is correct--The "Kooks" tag is an equal opportunity embracer. Left, center, right; kooks can be found wherever logic and reason are rejected.

120 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:12pm

re: #107 itellu3times

The poke was smallpox. Later went to a little pointy stamp kind of thing.

The sweet was the Sabin polio vaccination, followed a few years after the injected Salk vaccination.

The other order. The Salk injection came first.

121 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:18pm

There is absolutely no evidence that measles-mumps-rubella vaccine (MMR) causes autism, and parents who buy into this madness are....

Not so, my youngest was fine until he had his shots.

122 transient  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:20pm

This is where a solid science education would come in handy.

123 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:23pm

After my son passed away from SIDS it was thought that the Pertussis part of the DPT shot could be linked to SIDS....so I chose to for go the "P" and had my daughter vaccinated with just DT until she was older. Of course, as luck would have it she was exposed a week later to whooping cough...damned if you do and damned if you don't....in any case she did not come down with the illness...thankfully.

Then years later SIDS is being linked to the way you lay your child down to sleep...no longer the tummy but now the side....who knows....you do the best with the info you have at the time. All I know is all 5 of us kids slept on our tummies...prevailing wisdom...and we all survived. I guess you have to weigh the risks and do whats best.

Having said all that...I would vaccinate...as sure as the sun rises...I would vaccinate.

124 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:37pm

re: #101 opnion

I read that. Do you recall the section when he got stoned in a Miami Beach hotel room & went for a moonlight swim? He damn near drowned.

How about the ibogain and Senator Muskie and the neo-American boohoo? His fantasy about cutting the toes off Frank Mankewitz? The ride with Nixon in 1968? Getting his press credentials from ... Pat Buchanan!

125 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:10:42pm

We need Penn and Teller to comment on this.

126 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:11:00pm

One memory of growing up in a country that was poor, was seeing lots of people including young children, hobbling horribly from polio.

127 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:11:34pm

re: #117 Sharmuta

I'm a little surprised that we have had how many months of discussion about the anti-science movement on the right, and yet people are chalking this up to liberals? Stunning.

it's just mis-rationalizing a larger belief....another aspect of ODS

128 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:11:40pm

re: #120 Kosh's Shadow

That's what I said. Sorry for the awk grammar.

129 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:11:54pm

re: #121 Maximu§ And my daughter's boyfriend was fine until he got his third round of MMR. Now he has seizures.

130 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:12:12pm

re: #121 Maximu§

There is no evidence to support that assertion.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

131 rightymouse  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:12:32pm

I'm staying off this thread. Too much anger with what happened with my perfect baby.

132 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:12:43pm

re: #130 Sharmuta

There is no evidence to support that assertion.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

You have kids?

133 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:12:43pm

re: #121 Maximu§

I'm sorry about your child. But are you absolutely sure of cause and effect in your situation?

134 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:12:55pm

re: #122 transient

This is where a solid science education would come in handy.

* * *
You still have to sign waivers in case you come down with something, even for the flu vaccine.

Nothing is 100%.

135 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:13:25pm

re: #131 rightymouse

I'm staying off this thread. Too much anger with what happened with my perfect baby.

Exactly what happened to mine.....you have a friend in here.

136 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:13:32pm

re: #117 Sharmuta

I'm a little surprised that we have had how many months of discussion about the anti-science movement on the right, and yet people are chalking this up to liberals? Stunning.

Some righties blame everything on liberals just like Muslims blame everything on Jews.

137 imtoast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:14:03pm

I am so sick of the wacko loons who live here.

138 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:14:04pm

The doctor who started this nonsense was shown to be a liar, and is almost certainly responsible for the deaths of at least two children:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism


THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition.

...

Despite involving just a dozen children, the 1998 paper’s impact was extraordinary. After its publication, rates of inoculation fell from 92% to below 80%. Populations acquire “herd immunity” from measles when more than 95% of people have been vaccinated.

Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

139 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:14:05pm

re: #124 itellu3times

How about the ibogain and Senator Muskie and the neo-American boohoo? His fantasy about cutting the toes off Frank Mankewitz? The ride with Nixon in 1968? Getting his press credentials from ... Pat Buchanan!

Yeah, he really was Gonzo. Sitting with Nixon talking football!

140 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:14:15pm

re: #123 kawfytawk
I have a theory about SIDS. My niece used to quit breathing as a newborn. Now, the brain is always working...hence dreaming. I personally believe that the brain shuts down...therefore no dreaming, or automatic breathing. I know I am not making sense, but maybe you know what I mean.

141 whiterasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:14:47pm

There is a big push afoot in the place we used to call Great Britain to get childhood vaccinations banned. No links right now, but I'll check it out.

142 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:14:53pm

re: #133 Timbre

I'm sorry about your child. But are you absolutely sure of cause and effect in your situation?

I'm sure. My little one spiked a fever that lasted for days after the shots and I know it hurt him mentally.

143 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:14:55pm

01:38 McDonald`s introduces McCafe to Israel, will open 10 branches a year (TheMarker)

Just what Israel needs?

144 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:15:16pm

re: #132 Maximu§

My nephew has autism. It wasn't because of vaccinations, but my sister's pre-existing health conditions.

145 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:15:30pm

re: #126 alegrias

One memory of growing up in a country that was poor, was seeing lots of people including young children, hobbling horribly from polio.


I remember at least 2 kids from my first grade class. They had all the braces and we being kids teased them horribly. I gained some serious bad karma from that.

146 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:15:52pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

Yes.

147 snowcrash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:16:00pm

The herd must be vaccinated and all parents must share the risk to reap the benefits. (specific exceptions include immunodeficiency) that said, I am the mother of 2 fully vaccinated children and at one time worked in public health nursing. This article is a little old but still informative.

148 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:16:10pm

re: #143 Nevergiveup

01:38 McDonald`s introduces McCafe to Israel, will open 10 branches a year (TheMarker)

Just what Israel needs?

Well without the zionist influence of Starbucks in Israel, who will make decent coffee?

Ok .. having been at Starbucks .. i'll have to find way of saying that without using the word DECENT.

149 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:16:27pm

re: #142 Maximu§
I have a cousin who is my age...41...she developed a fever after her immunizations. It wouldn't go away and she became severely retarded.

150 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:16:33pm

re: #140 UberInfidel67

I have a theory about SIDS. My niece used to quit breathing as a newborn. Now, the brain is always working...hence dreaming. I personally believe that the brain shuts down...therefore no dreaming, or automatic breathing. I know I am not making sense, but maybe you know what I mean.

yeah...they have thought the brain stem was a major component...immature brain stem....something they grown into/out of....it seems to point in that direction since there is no "struggle" to breath when they quit....even for a short time....just like they are sleeping

151 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:16:34pm

re: #144 Sharmuta

My nephew has autism. It wasn't because of vaccinations, but my sister's pre-existing health conditions.

Ah, you don't have kids.....than BUTT OUT! You don't know S**T until your a parent and its YOUR child suffering!

152 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:16:55pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

Probably before the end of this thread......
/ :)

153 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:17:03pm

re: #145 JohnnyReb

I remember at least 2 kids from my first grade class. They had all the braces and we being kids teased them horribly. I gained some serious bad karma from that.

Your numbers are high here.

154 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:17:03pm

re: #133 Timbre

I'm sorry about your child. But are you absolutely sure of cause and effect in your situation?

Correlation does not entail causation.

155 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:17:27pm

re: #148 Buster Bunny

Well without the zionist influence of Starbucks in Israel, who will make decent coffee?

Ok .. having been at Starbucks .. i'll have to find way of saying that without using the word DECENT.

I got no problem with the coffee in Israel- shit I'll even drink the mud stuff.

156 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:17:30pm

Question, when I was a kid, children with "Hair Lips " were common.
Who knows what causes that & why is it less frequent today?

157 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:17:33pm

re: #133 Timbre

I'm sorry about your child. But are you absolutely sure of cause and effect in your situation?

I can almost say the exact same thing, my child was fine before having multiple vaccines in one day. Then he didn't want to be touched, cried for no reason and didn't talk till he was almost 4.

;)

Down ding me, not the hardest thing I will have to live with.

158 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:17:37pm

re: #133 Timbre

I'm sorry about your child. But are you absolutely sure of cause and effect in your situation?

Crap happens. Even some of the vaccines end up, rarely, having negative outcomes. but, the chances of the negative outcomes is much less than the chance of getting the diseases they help prevent. And the negative outcomes of the diseases are far worse, both on an individual basis and a societal basis, than the side effects of the vaccines.

But there is always an exception to the rule. There is always going to be someone that suffers. When statistics show that 99 million out of 100 million people benefit from a vaccine, that still leaces a million people that might not.

159 Lee Coller  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:17:41pm

Here's an example of this issue being raised on the far right:

When Immunizations Become a Prolife Issue

160 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:11pm

My dad had a huge solid lead ingot that I used to play with when I was a kid.

Ddinnnt hert mewon bitt.

161 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:14pm

re: #126 alegrias

One memory of growing up in a country that was poor, was seeing lots of people including young children, hobbling horribly from polio.

Growing up in the USA through the 1950s, every summer a few would get polio and become paralyzed. Was just life.

Any vaccination carries risks, but they tend to be ten or a hundred times less than not being vaccinated!

162 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:16pm

re: #95 Charles

Again -- the anti-vaccination crowd is NOT only liberals.

No, but the new age hippie-types do go in for the natural healing=good medical science=bad in very high proportions. The registered nurse/childbirth instructor that my wife and I were required to see suggested aromatherapy, reflexology and sage smudging, but discouraged vaccinations and circumcision. I'm glad that the mandatory class only cost 30 bucks.

163 mikalm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:20pm

re: #124 itellu3times

How about the ibogain and Senator Muskie and the neo-American boohoo? His fantasy about cutting the toes off Frank Mankewitz? The ride with Nixon in 1968? Getting his press credentials from ... Pat Buchanan!

The "Neo-American Church" BooHoo was Peter Sheridan, who later became a roadie for the Grateful Dead, and was killed in a motorcycle accident in 1979. Pretty much everyone who met the guy, from HST to John Perry Barlow, said that he was the most insane person they'd ever met outside a rubber room.

As for Thompson: it's tragic that he became a nihilistic moonbat and self-caricature in his last years, and ws callous enough to off himself in circumstances where his family would immediately find his bloody corpse. R.I.P., and God's mercy on him.

164 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:25pm

re: #151 Maximu§

You don't know shit. There is no evidence to support your theory. However, many hypotheses are being tested. If they should ever find a link between autism and vaccinations, then I will apologize to you, but until that day, fuck you.

165 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:29pm

re: #156 opnion

Question, when I was a kid, children with "Hair Lips " were common.
Who knows what causes that & why is it less frequent today?

hare lip...fyi

166 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:29pm

re: #116 HoosierHoops

Hey you!
Did you get a chance to read Bill Simmon's mailbag on ESPN today?
Funnier than heck

I did read some of it yesterday but it was a couple weeks old ... is a new one out?

167 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:34pm

re: #155 Nevergiveup

I got no problem with the coffee in Israel- shit I'll even drink the mud stuff.

Whatever you do in Israel .. dont smoke the native cigarettes.

Horrible stuff. Had me longing for Camels and Winfield.

168 midwestgak  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:47pm

re: #126 alegrias

One memory of growing up in a country that was poor, was seeing lots of people including young children, hobbling horribly from polio.

Polio was not a discriminator or poor/rich. One of my former bosses had a shriveled right arm, disfigured hand and dragged his right foot. (Very successful and pleasant man, (btw). America had its share of polio victims.

169 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:52pm

First off, anti-vaccination people are completely nuts. I can think of few greater advances in medical history than vaccination against crippling and deadly diseases. I don't care if you worship the Ancient God of Being Really Sick or if you're a lesbian communist atheist who hates that men in pharmaceutical companies make a profit while overpopulating the globe, it's insane to oppose vaccination.

On the lighter side of stupid parents, here's an e-mail (to the parents of a 6-7 year old soccer players) that sparked a furor (and a resignation) in MA. ESPN's Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon addressed the issue on PTI earlier. Both of them were absolutely outraged and Wilbon even as much as said that if he ever saw the guy "talking to kids like that" he'd kick his ass. Far more indignation than they display as they report on the routine stories of wife-beating, drunk driving, gun-wielding athletes.
Anyway, it was obvious that neither Wilbon or Kornheiser had actually read the e-mail.
It's not the funniest thing ever, and the guy would have been smart to wait until tomorrow (April Fool's Day) to send it, but there is not one chance in the world that this is not a joke. Somebody, please read it and tell me how anyone could ever take this seriously.

Your text to link...

170 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:54pm

re: #102 Charles

Some of you must have missed my comment above, because some of the worst anti-vax garbage is being promoted by one of the most right-wing media sources in America, Weird Nut Drooly.

Every so often I'd go check their stories and go, "huh?" Now I've lost track of the last time I went there. And that is a good thing.

171 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:18:58pm

re: #156 opnion

Question, when I was a kid, children with "Hair Lips " were common.
Who knows what causes that & why is it less frequent today?

Believe it's just genetics, but plastic surgery is easy now.

172 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:19:18pm

re: #150 kawfytawk
That's what I mean. Breathing is natural even when you are asleep. Something is your brain is telling you "BREATHE". I think that is what is missing in SIDS babies. That's why when their monitors go off, it only takes a little shake to get them breathing again. But I am not a doctor, so what do I know. Just a theory.

173 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:19:42pm

re: #86 itellu3times

Ever read Fear and Loathing On The Campaign Trail? Even better!

At his best, HST was something.


I did, but nothing can top Las Vegas for me ... and the movie did not do the book justice!

174 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:19:49pm

re: #4 Charles

One of the worst promoters of this evil crap is World Net Daily, by the way.

That's in America. In Pakistan the worst promoters of this nonsense are the Taliban.

175 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:20:26pm

re: #114 Kosh's Shadow

When I was in elementary school, while in line in the halls and stairs, we'd chip the asbestos insulation off the radiator pipes.

I've done the mercury, years working around asbestos and elbow deep in PCB fluid around vacuum tubes. The stuff may be a hazard, but it's way over done.

176 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:20:29pm

re: #151 Maximu§

Ah, you don't have kids.....than BUTT OUT! You don't know S**T until your a parent and its YOUR child suffering!

Yeah; that's right; extrememly intense emotional conviction trumps the hell outta facts, logic and evidence. At least that's what fanatics, fundamentalists, and zealots of all stripes fervently believe.

177 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:20:31pm

re: #142 re: #154 Salamantis

Correlation does not entail causation.

That is my point. There are a lot of people who think that because "L" happened, "K" must have caused it.

178 mikalm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:16pm

re: #162 NukeAtomrod

No, but the new age hippie-types do go in for the natural healing=good medical science=bad in very high proportions. The registered nurse/childbirth instructor that my wife and I were required to see suggested aromatherapy, reflexology and sage smudging, but discouraged vaccinations and circumcision. I'm glad that the mandatory class only cost 30 bucks.

I'm too familiar with the mentality:

Western medicine = bad, bad, bad
Anything exotic or "organic" = automatically good, and not subject to critical examination

179 transient  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:27pm

re: #134 alegrias

* * *
You still have to sign waivers in case you come down with something, even for the flu vaccine.

Nothing is 100%.

I do not understand how this relates to my comment.
All I am saying is that a good science education would allow people to critically evaluate the information they receive, rather than relying on questionable sources and anecdotal experience.

180 jwb7605  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:28pm

Drive by post.
This is a chilling article (fiction ... maybe ...)
It's worth reading and pondering: The Return of Scipio

181 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:30pm

re: #142 Maximu§

A tiny percentage of children suffer an adverse reaction to vaccinations. Statistically, the risk is overwhelmingly worth a vaccination. If it's your child that suffers the adverse reaction, however, I'm sure you'll never believe it.

182 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:50pm

re: #163 mikalm

What you said.

But if you can believe the story, at least he was somewhat responsible for Muskie getting pushed out of the election.

HST started to believe in his own myth, never a good idea. And I guess he actually had some health problems at the end, drug-induced and/or otherwise. Try to remember him at his best.

183 rightymouse  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:52pm

re: #142 Maximu§

I'm sure. My little one spiked a fever that lasted for days after the shots and I know it hurt him mentally.

Thanks for your support.

Let me guess. 104 to 105 temp? No explanation from the Dr.? Pre-toddler stage?

184 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:52pm

re: #87 Kosh's Shadow

Eventually. Everyone dies.

Life is fatal after all.

185 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:21:56pm

My wife is a teacher and has to deal with these kids. The ones who
are "under the umbrella" even though many of them are just not good or not smart or have very very poor ( as in not good) parents.
For the parents, it's a bunch of perks.

Anyhow, My 15 year old had all her shots and she is fine. Strong and smart.
Sids was all the rage when she was a baby, but we know now there is no such thing.
She used a cute little walker. You can't get those anymore either.

186 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:14pm

re: #165 albusteve

hare lip...fyi

THanks for that , I guess. Do you know what the causation is?

187 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:36pm

re: #98 father_of_10

I had a friend that was crippled with polio. I was convinced. Later on my ex-wife went on an anti-vaccination kick, claiming it was part of her "religion".

After the divorce I got the kids vaccinated. Polio, mumps, measles, small pox . . . these are bad things

Smallpox vaccinations were discontinued in 1973. Not only that, but the vaccination itself is only good for about 30 years or so.

If smallpox toxin is released, we are all so screwed.

188 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:41pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

Best to write your will now. That way, you'll be ready.

189 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:42pm

Autism couldn't possible be one of these factors, nope. It must be the vaccinations despite a complete lack of evidence:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My sister has a thyroid condition and had a poor diet. Couldn't possibly be why my nephew has autism, nope. Must be the vaccines.

190 displaced yankee  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:43pm

These idiot parents are counting on herd immunity, that is, that if enough vaccinated children are around, their children will be protected. They are fools. Deaths from vaccines are very low, the death rate fron measles can reach 40%. "Autism" has grown because it now encompasses a wide spectrum of disorders. The stigma of having a child with an autistic syndrome is lessened by calling it by another name. Widespread use of antibiotics is leading to resistant germs, but what health care provider would be in business long if they told the parent, that the Amer. Pediatric Ass'n. states antibiotics would really help with an ear infection. My biggest gripe, asthma and respiratory ailments are up despite the cleanest air in years. With antibiotic usage, have we "saved" those who 100 years would have died off from a disease? Are we naturally selecting losers? And wait til The O rations health care! Just wait! I tremble in fear.

191 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:46pm

re: #172 UberInfidel67

That's what I mean. Breathing is natural even when you are asleep. Something is your brain is telling you "BREATHE". I think that is what is missing in SIDS babies. That's why when their monitors go off, it only takes a little shake to get them breathing again. But I am not a doctor, so what do I know. Just a theory.

A baby who is young has not learnt HOW to breathe yet. Sure its got some of the skill there by being born, but like any routine it will do during its life, it learns how to breathe properly by IMITATING ITS MOTHER. The other thing that is well known is that a baby left in the wild will start shutting down .. by itself, after a couple of days without attention.

These are both researched and understood responses yet .. some people think its ok just to ignore them. Summing up, the best way to keep baby alive is to keep it close .. and loved.

It is so hard to understand?

192 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:53pm

There are those who claim flu shots cause the flu. They are wrong too.

193 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:22:55pm

re: #177 Timbre


That is my point. There are a lot of people who think that because "L" happened, "K" must have caused it.

post hoc propter hoc

194 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:23:03pm

re: #166 _RememberTonyC

I did read some of it yesterday but it was a couple weeks old ... is a new one out?

2 parts weds is part 2..
You doing OK? How does your bracket look?

195 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:23:08pm

We need Wilderstad to get involved in this conversation. He/She has done tons of research on this very issue.

196 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:23:13pm

I am not anti immunization, though it is a fact that vaccines can and do cause side effects and even death.These are usually acute episodes.No medication is without risk.Sorry for any parent who feels their child was injured by a vaccine.

197 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:23:27pm

re: #186 opnion

THanks for that , I guess. Do you know what the causation is?

no

198 Soccermom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:23:34pm

A great disservice to all children and to public health. ALL of the professional research shows no relationship between being vaccinated and autism. People, like Mrs. McCarthy, who continue to spread pseudo science should be ashamed. Their ignorance is hurting not only their own children, but other children as well.

199 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:23:35pm

re: #172 UberInfidel67

That's what I mean. Breathing is natural even when you are asleep. Something is your brain is telling you "BREATHE". I think that is what is missing in SIDS babies. That's why when their monitors go off, it only takes a little shake to get them breathing again. But I am not a doctor, so what do I know. Just a theory.

My girls are now 22/23 but they were both on the bradychardia/apnea monitors. If it went off, You were trained to rub their backs or bellies for 10 beeps, vigourously rub and call their names for 10 beeps and then shake them for 10 beeps...of course each increase is if they haven't begun to breathe again. As God is my witness...when that alarm went off...I went straight to the shake...10 beeps is a looooong time in a panic

200 transient  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:23:42pm

re: #143 Nevergiveup

01:38 McDonald`s introduces McCafe to Israel, will open 10 branches a year (TheMarker)

Just what Israel needs?

Starbucks failed in Israel. Israel has its own quality coffee culture, probably from European Jewish roots. Something tells me McCafe isn't going to do too well.

201 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:24:13pm

Good night, everyone. Can't stay around here, looks like storms are a-brewing and civility is being tossed overboard.

202 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:24:44pm

re: #197 albusteve

no

Well at least your not real wordy about it.

203 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:24:46pm

re: #201 Russkilitlover

Good night, everyone. Can't stay around here, looks like storms are a-brewing and civility is being tossed overboard.

More like bad McCoffee brewing.

204 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:24:53pm

re: #177 Timbre


That is my point. There are a lot of people who think that because "L" happened, "K" must have caused it.

In that case blame me for 9-11, because I took a piss right before the terror flyers hit the Twin Towers, and my piss hitting the toilet water musta caused it.

205 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:24:54pm

re: #201 Russkilitlover

Good night, everyone. Can't stay around here, looks like storms are a-brewing and civility is being tossed overboard.

You're going to watch American Idol?

206 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:01pm

re: #154 Salamantis

Correlation does not entail causation.

Just like second-hand smoke.

207 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:12pm

re: #164 Sharmuta

You don't know shit. There is no evidence to support your theory. However, many hypotheses are being tested. If they should ever find a link between autism and vaccinations, then I will apologize to you, but until that day, fuck you.

Funny how people who don't have kids always act their the experts on child raising and childhood sicknesses.

208 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:12pm

re: #158 father_of_10

Crap happens. Even some of the vaccines end up, rarely, having negative outcomes. but, the chances of the negative outcomes is much less than the chance of getting the diseases they help prevent. And the negative outcomes of the diseases are far worse, both on an individual basis and a societal basis, than the side effects of the vaccines.

But there is always an exception to the rule. There is always going to be someone that suffers. When statistics show that 99 million out of 100 million people benefit from a vaccine, that still leaces a million people that might not.


Exactly right. I am old enough that I was never vacinated against either polio or small pox. And the kids I went to grade school with didn't get it either.

Trust me, get your kids vacinated. There are a ton of famlies out there that had children die from smallpox, measels, mumps and a ton of stuff when I was a kid. Those kids don't usually die now, but they did then. And I can remember a bunch of families who had kids that died before they even started school.

Most of the polio kids are dead now, but they were in my class with braces and the like. If they were strong, they lived. If they were not strong they died. And this was not that long ago. We are talking the 1950s.

209 transient  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:15pm

re: #193 itellu3times

post hoc propter hoc

AKA (for Latin illiterates like myself): correlation does not (necessarily) imply causation.

210 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:25pm

re: #187 Alouette

Smallpox vaccinations were discontinued in 1973. Not only that, but the vaccination itself is only good for about 30 years or so.

If smallpox toxin is released, we are all so screwed.

they gave my hubby a booster of small pox in 2003...he was in the navy

211 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:29pm

re: #201 Russkilitlover

Good night, everyone. Can't stay around here, looks like storms are a-brewing and civility is being tossed overboard.

I counted only one f bomb.

212 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:35pm

I have friends who won't vaccinate their children. They are very conservative.

I don't know what to say about the autism. My boys are all late talkers, so I know the symptoms inside and out and watch for them.

Play with toys normally. Check.
Shows empathy. Check.
Makes requests nonverbally. Check.

213 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:37pm

re: #136 Salamantis

Some righties blame everything on liberals just like Muslims blame everything on Jews.

Hitler was a lefty socialist - not in any way right wing! Same with Robertson, Duke, Le Pen, - all screaming pinkos!//

214 rightymouse  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:25:54pm

I should have stayed with my word to stay off this thread. :)

Later my dears!

215 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:26:27pm

re: #207 Maximu§

Funny how people who don't have kids always act their the experts on child raising and childhood sicknesses.

Funny how people with no degree in a scientific field think they're experts.

216 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:26:33pm

re: #210 kawfytawk

they gave my hubby a booster of small pox in 2003...he was in the navy

I got so many shots last year I don't know what I got. One day I should look at the records.

217 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:26:49pm

re: #204 Salamantis

In that case blame me for 9-11, because I took a piss right before the terror flyers hit the Twin Towers, and my piss hitting the toilet water musta caused it.

Yeah, but did you flush the evidence down the toilet?

218 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:26:56pm

re: #207 Maximu§

Funny how people who don't have kids always act their the experts on child raising and childhood sicknesses.

Sorry..Being a Parent certainly doesn't make you an expert...I know way to many parents

219 displaced yankee  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:27:03pm

re: #107 itellu3times
Guys usually got the smallpox in the arm. It was not uncommon for girls to get it in the thigh so as to avoid "disfigurement". Well, that was back in the 40's and 50's.

220 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:27:14pm

re: #155 Nevergiveup

I got no problem with the coffee in Israel- shit I'll even drink the mud stuff.

The best coffee I ever had in my life, was at a little rest stop on the highway, Route 6, on the way from Tel Aviv to Galilee.

Pretty much any coffee shop in Israel (especially the Aroma cafe chain) makes awesome coffee.

221 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:27:57pm

re: #214 rightymouse

I should have stayed with my word to stay off this thread. :)

Later my dears!

Later righty.. Kind regards

222 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:27:59pm

re: #215 Sharmuta

Funny how people with no degree in a scientific field think they're experts.

Come on people, this is an emotional topic, we are all friends here. Well most of us at least.

223 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:28:04pm

re: #43 zombie

Last time I said this here, a lot of people jumped down my throat, but I'm going to say it again anyway:

Autism is a real disease. The people who have it really do have it.

However, it is very rare.

Thousands of kids are being falsely diagnosed with autism or semi-autism these days, both to please the pharmaceutical companies, and to reassure the moms who can't cope with their children who are not acting entirely "normally."

But as soon as anyone points out that autism is being over-diagnosed, they're accused of being insensitive. People these days apparently crave any kind of medical "explanation" for the difficulties of parenting a problem child.

So they glom on to this vaccine hoax as a way of absolving themselves of any guilt.

Let's help the real autistics. Let's even help the "problem kids" in whatever way we can. But let's not saddle them with an inaccurate medical label. And let's definitely not embrace craziness in the process.


My wife is a school psychologist, so i see/hear this pretty up close. The bad thing about Autism is that it is rarely the only thing ailing the person. It's almost always a mixed bag of different problems. So, not only is it hard to to pin down, diagnoses are interfered with other issues as well, such as learning disabilities, aspergers, tourette's, etc, etc.

224 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:28:08pm

re: #202 opnion

Well at least your not real wordy about it.

it's congenital...but other than that I have no clue

225 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:28:10pm

re: #151 Maximu§

Ah, you don't have kids.....than BUTT OUT! You don't know S**T until your a parent and its YOUR child suffering!

You've been played. See:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Two children dead already because of this nonsense.

226 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:28:23pm

re: #183 rightymouse

Thanks for your support.

Let me guess. 104 to 105 temp? No explanation from the Dr.? Pre-toddler stage?

My little one's fever spiked at 103 the second day after the shots and he suffered badly and after that his head grew to be too large and the doctors could not explain it, but my wife and I are sure it was the shots.

Salamantis ...walk a mile in my shoes.

227 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:28:35pm

re: #216 Nevergiveup

I believe it....he got an anthrax vaccine as well...which I always thought were for cattle....it got to the point that he hated attending any briefings with corpsmen standing around :O)

228 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:28:35pm

re: #209 transient

post hoc propter hoc

AKA (for Latin illiterates like myself): correlation does not (necessarily) imply causation.

post hoc, ergo propter hoc - after therefore because of. It's a fallacy! But traditionally cited in the affirmative anyway.

229 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:29:11pm

There was a man once who forgot to immunize his little boy, despite the fact that he was a proponent of immunization.

His little boy died of that disease.

The boy's name was Josiah Franklin. His dad was Benjamin.

Just a historical fact.

230 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:29:20pm

re: #191 Buster Bunny WTF is your point? Breathing is a rudimentary (is that the correct word) skill. Once you know how to do it, you do it. It doesn't take practice or skill. It is a natural occurance. I really don't know what point you are trying to make. My niece slept between my sister and I ...and we were both breathing. Obviously she didn't pick up on that "skill"? You are making no sense.

231 NYCHardhat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:29:26pm

I know Jenny McCarthy is a big proponent.

232 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:29:46pm

re: #177 Timbre

That is my point. There are a lot of people who think that because "L" happened, "K" must have caused it.

And there's an even greater number of people who think that because "L" happened, it's George Bush's fault.

233 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:29:51pm

re: #220 Alouette

The best coffee I ever had in my life, was at a little rest stop on the highway, Route 6, on the way from Tel Aviv to Galilee.

Pretty much any coffee shop in Israel (especially the Aroma cafe chain) makes awesome coffee.

Yup, I even learned how on hot day, when you are sweating, a hot cup of coffee can cool ya down. Now that shows how much I learned to love Israel!

234 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:30:00pm

re: #224 albusteve

it's congenital...but other than that I have no clue

I guess I always wondered , because I grew up with kids that were afflicted & I don't see it today.
Actually, I should just research it.

235 Soccermom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:30:02pm

Forgot to say that my children received all the recommended vaccinations, in case anyone would like to ask me if I'm a parent (as if that determines whether I can evaluate scientific/medical issues or not). I wish they'd gotten smallpox, also. I think we're fools to think that isn't going to rear its ugly ahead in the future.

236 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:30:14pm

re: #208 JohnnyReb

As a nurse I took care of some poor souls who had polio and were confined to the old iron lung machines for life.Horrible.

237 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:30:21pm

re: #230 UberInfidel67

WTF is your point? Breathing is a rudimentary (is that the correct word) skill. Once you know how to do it, you do it. It doesn't take practice or skill. It is a natural occurance. I really don't know what point you are trying to make. My niece slept between my sister and I ...and we were both breathing. Obviously she didn't pick up on that "skill"? You are making no sense.

autonomous skill. but yeah you're right.

238 NYCHardhat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:30:31pm

re: #232 opilio

And there's an even greater number of people who think that because "L" happened, it's George Bush's fault.

but it is.

//

239 NY Nana  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:30:53pm

re: #95 Charles

Again -- the anti-vaccination crowd is NOT only liberals.

Charles,

Thank you so much. And thank you for posting this thread. Yes, people of every political persuasion have drunk the Kool-Aid, and persist in believing the shibboleth that vaccines cause autism, etc. Simply not true. I have posted about this so many times, and am told off by every side of the political spectrum.

I am a mother of 4, grandmother of 3, and have had all of our kids vaccinated, and in turn, my kids and their spouses have also made sure that the grandkids have had theirs. And I am also a retired RN, who was born in 1938, and saw, as I grew up, classmates who had polio, and the after effects..measles, mumps, chicken pox? I had all 3. NY Grampa and I still get DT shots, as do all our kids.

Sadly, Autism is now seen as genetic in so many cases...not caused by a vaccine.
Mercury has been out of the picture for years. What bothers me is that California allows misguided parents to opt out, rather than have it mandatory, except in a case where there is a proven medical reason that a particular child has an allergy to a component.

Grrrrrrr. Yoo, hoo, Pat? Still here? ;) I had a phone call and was asked to 'splain some things re the absence of a connection between libs and/or conservatives and their use of vaccines.

240 debutaunt  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:31:13pm

re: #8 IslandLibertarian

My sign would read:
NO SHOES, NO SHIRT, NO SHOTS = NO SERVICE!

We used to quarantine people with infectious diseases to stop the spread. What in the heck is going on?

241 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:31:13pm

re: #238 NYCHardhat

And there's an even greater number of people who think that because "L" happened, it's George Bush's fault.

but it is.

//

More like "O" happened.

242 midwestgak  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:31:16pm

re: #186 opnion

THanks for that , I guess. Do you know what the causation is?

Cleft Palate

According to this article there are 34 reasons.

243 jantjepietje  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:31:39pm

We have just had this crap in the Netherlands with the vaccine against cervical cancer. Stories were told about people dying crazy thing is a lot of the highly educated elite fell for it while they are the ones that should know better. I really cannot understand the motivation behind these anti-vaccination groups.

244 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:31:49pm

What I find sad is this is something on which Maximus and I should be able to find some common ground, as we both have loved ones suffering from autism. But instead of desiring clarity and further research on this issue so we can better help and prevent autism, he launches a nasty personal attack simply because I stated a fact- that there is no evidence to suggest vaccinations cause autism. I'm very sorry for anyone who's children are going through this, but clinging to personal hypotheses with no evidence isn't going to prevent or treat autism.

245 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:32:25pm

re: #239 NY Nana

My brother in law has autism (among other things), and his parents are convinced that it was due to mercury preservatives in his vaccinations, because "there was a small window in the early 90s where they used it, and that's when he was vaccinated".

246 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:32:49pm

re: #233 Nevergiveup

Yup, I even learned how on hot day, when you are sweating, a hot cup of coffee can cool ya down. Now that shows how much I learned to love Israel!

Hot coffee or tobasco sauce. Learned it in Vietnam.

247 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:32:57pm

re: #243 jantjepietje

We have just had this crap in the Netherlands with the vaccine against cervical cancer. Stories were told about people dying crazy thing is a lot of the highly educated elite fell for it while they are the ones that should know better. I really cannot understand the motivation behind these anti-vaccination groups.

I am very skeptical about the competence and honesty of the medical profession and the drug industry. However, I am under no illusions about the seriousness of the disease organisms! Lesser of two evils.

248 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:33:06pm

re: #236 vagabond trader

As a nurse I took care of some poor souls who had polio and were confined to the old iron lung machines for life.Horrible.

The strong survived and came to school with us mean kids. We teased them terribly when I was in grade school. But we tormented anyone who was different then.

249 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:33:12pm

02:13 Haaretz poll: 54% of public dissatisfied with new Netanyahu government (Haaretz)

tough country I'd say!

250 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:33:17pm

re: #215 Sharmuta

Funny how people with no degree in a scientific field think they're experts.

I Have a degree in engineering! You who have NEVER raised a child is telling me I don't know my own kid and what made him sick?

Your looking dumber by the minute....

251 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:33:29pm

re: #142 Maximu§

I'm sure. My little one spiked a fever that lasted for days after the shots and I know it hurt him mentally.

That's tragic and I'm very sorry it happened to your kid. Fevers are a common side effect from vaccinations and a very high fever can cause brain damage, but that isn't autism... or at least it isn't what autism was 30 years ago. The diagnosing criteria was changed to include a much broader range of symptoms. Now autism is a blanket term that probably covers a number of different conditions.

252 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:33:53pm

cleft lip/palate

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

253 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:34:18pm

re: #249 Nevergiveup

Oh he's going to steal the title of "Shortest honeymoon EVER "
from the Obaminator.

254 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:34:39pm

re: #250 Maximu§

You assume much.

255 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:35:22pm

re: #248 JohnnyReb

That was a time honored hobby in CT when I was a kid also. One day I tripped up the rich jock sob who tormented the kid with CP every fcking day until I snapped.

256 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:35:22pm

re: #253 Jimash

Oh he's going to steal the title of "Shortest honeymoon EVER "
from the Obaminator.

He is not well like in Israel. He didn't really win the election, everyone else lost it.

257 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:35:29pm

re: #237 so.cal.swede
Thannk you...I knew what I was trying to say.I just couldn't get it out right.

258 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:35:47pm

My sister is one of the anti-vaccine crowd. Her kids have not been vaccinated because she honestly believes the medical establishment is one huge conspiracy to control people's lives. She also thinks Dr. Weston Price is the best thing since sliced bread. I can't figure out her motivations but I do know that regardless of how much evidence I toss her way, she will not listen to reason. I've stopped trying, it's an exercise in futility. I liken this kind of "dogma over reason" approach to the YEC/creationist movement.

My kids have all their shots in case you are wondering.

259 Gozer the Carpathian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:35:50pm

My friend's kid is Autistic and she's pretty sure it's from these shots as well. My daughter is coming up on 4 months old and hence right in line for shots. She's told us her misgivings BUT she's not as "off the hinge" as some are. She says they've "fixed" things in recent years but warns us off of the flu vaccine.

*Shrugs*

I'm going to protect my daughter every which way I can that's all that really matters to me. :D

260 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:35:50pm

re: #226 Maximu§

Maximus, this is all based on bullshit from a doctor who lied about the data on what would have been an incredibly weak study even without the dishonesty over the data that he employed. See post 225.

261 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:36:02pm

re: #240 debutaunt

We used to quarantine people with infectious diseases to stop the spread. What in the heck is going on?

illegal immigration....and legal travel...you don't have to show a shot record at the border/customs

262 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:36:30pm

re: #230 UberInfidel67

You are wrong UberInfidel67. When babies are born their heart rhythms are very much raised and erratic, and their breathing is spontaneous and often out of synchronisation with its mechanism. But the heartbeat and breathing of a nurturer helps keep the babies alive. As I said before, a baby left out on its own will lose sync quickly and die reasonably rapidly. Its also the same reason why babies are most likely to survive catastrophes .. their mechanism can vary their heartbeat and pulse at levels which a life TRAINED person could not cope with.

A demonstrated study of the care of orphans in post war nursing showed a marked effect in whether the baby was cared for as to its long term chances of survival.

You make too much of an assumption that I dont quote from what I know.

263 transient  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:36:34pm

re: #249 Nevergiveup

02:13 Haaretz poll: 54% of public dissatisfied with new Netanyahu government (Haaretz)

tough country I'd say!

Been in power all of, what, 8 hours now?!

264 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:36:44pm

In Minnesota [David Freddoso]
The Minnesota court hearing the Franken-Coleman election case has issued its ruling — it looks bad for Coleman.

Just 400 ballots will be examined on April 7, next Tuesday. It would be nearly impossible for Coleman to make up his 225-vote deficit. However, he can always appeal to the state Supreme Court, which means this saga will probably continue for some time.

03/31 06:05 PMShare

265 realwest  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:36:47pm

Hey Y'all - sorry for this - it's a repost I made on the Thread Charles had up earlier on the Barney Frank "Payment for Performance" bill.

"Sorry I'm late to this thread damnit, but this is the most serious over reaching by the Federal Government I've ever even HEARD of, much less been tried.

PLEASE EVERYONE - if you are an American Voter, please write to your member of the House of Representative and the US Senate NOW - don't wait until it gets to a committe. Tell them to vote NO - to the ""Pay for Performance Act of 2009," bill. PLEASE.
Your house of representative member's e-mail and fax number is at [Link: www.house.gov...] your two Senators e-mail and fax numbers can be reached at [Link: www.senate.gov...]
Thank you all very much.".

266 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:36:59pm

re: #250 Maximu§

I Have a degree in engineering! You who have NEVER raised a child is telling me I don't know my own kid and what made him sick?

Your looking dumber by the minute....


That was mean and uncalled for. I can understand your frustration, but that was mean.

267 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:37:06pm

re: #207 Maximu§

Funny how people who don't have kids always act their the experts on child raising and childhood sicknesses.

All of my kids have had all of their shots- I would rather have a living child with autism than a child with no vaccine risk of autism dead rom measles or any of the other diseases that are PROVEN to cause deaths. . .

268 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:37:15pm

re: #189 Sharmuta

Autism couldn't possible be one of these factors, nope. It must be the vaccinations despite a complete lack of evidence:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

My sister has a thyroid condition and had a poor diet. Couldn't possibly be why my nephew has autism, nope. Must be the vaccines.

You are bias because of your experience with your sister and her child.
I am 28, 21 when I had my child.
Perfect health.
I don't drink or smoke...
My child has 5 shots in one day because I trust my doctor...
my child starts crying to touch.
Then doesn't speak till almost four.
It was my health that did that? My child was fine, perfect the day I took my child to the doctor.
Believe me, when I was FIRST told to have my child tested I said "All children are different, my child will come along."
In preschool, again "You should have your child tested."
I ignored it again, what the hell do THEY know?

Kindergarten - that is when the ball really dropped.

Took 7 people to tell me to have my child tested... and yes, I still look back on those shots.

Do I place blame, no. I'd rather have him alive than dead with a serious condition. However, it has made parts of his interaction with the WORLD much harder, as well as my ability to reach and care for my child.

This topic is something that won't fully be understood until 1. the research really does come out (because big pharma is big) and 2. you have a child with the same conditions (or at least under the "umbrella.")

269 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:37:33pm

re: #252 albusteve

cleft lip/palate

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

THank you, That answered both questions,what the cause is & why it is not as prevelant, early suregery. Back in the day, people went through their teen years with cleft palate. It was tough on them because children can be cruel

270 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:37:39pm

re: #261 kawfytawk

illegal immigration....and legal travel...you don't have to show a shot record at the border/customs

we have had several cases of plague here in NM in the last couple of years...yup...straight up the Rio Grande from Mexico

271 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:37:45pm
272 mikalm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:37:55pm

Speaking of "medical dissidents" -- how many Lizards are familiar with the anti-(male)circumcision movement?

273 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:38:29pm

re: #250 Maximu§
Sir, I believe you one hundred percent. These things do occur. And who would know better than the parent when they weigh the evidence of before and after with their child. We know our kids and we know when something is wrong. We think and boil it down to a cause. Again, I believe you.

274 midwestgak  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:38:52pm

re: #263 transient

Been in power all of, what, 8 hours now?!

That's a 'good' sign. If he was being praised my eyebrow would go up.

275 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:13pm

re: #272 mikalm

Speaking of "medical dissidents" -- how many Lizards are familiar with the anti-(male)circumcision movement?

That toughs to discuss on here, because all us guys find it hard to type with both hands over our dicks!

276 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:20pm

I'm outta here, but until your a parent and you have raised children.....its better to STFU on subjects like this, because you really are out of your league. I bet everyone who dinged me down has no kids.

Watch your precious baby suffer after one of those Mercury soaked shots runs through his system and than come talk to me.

277 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:21pm

re: #247 itellu3times

I am very skeptical about the competence and honesty of the medical profession and the drug industry. However, I am under no illusions about the seriousness of the disease organisms! Lesser of two evils.

There's a lot of medical research bullshit out there, especially when it comes to all (there are many now) PC diseases. But I do believe that vaccinations, while not perfect, are saving more lives by far than any treatment medicine has presently.

278 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:37pm

re: #250 Maximu§

I Have a degree in engineering! You who have NEVER raised a child is telling me I don't know my own kid and what made him sick?

Your looking dumber by the minute....

That degree is of use only if you're a robot raising a little machine.

279 displaced yankee  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:42pm

re: #240 debutaunt
That would violate their human rights

280 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:47pm

re: #264 Nevergiveup

In Minnesota [David Freddoso]
The Minnesota court hearing the Franken-Coleman election case has issued its ruling — it looks bad for Coleman.

Just 400 ballots will be examined on April 7, next Tuesday. It would be nearly impossible for Coleman to make up his 225-vote deficit. However, he can always appeal to the state Supreme Court, which means this saga will probably continue for some time.
03/31 06:05 PMShare

I hope he appeals it till the godddammed cows come home......
Litigate the fuck out of Franken. Payback for all the endless libtard litigation that's been inflicted on all of us.

281 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:49pm

re: #268 cichco

I didn't say it was your health, I said it was my sster's inthe case of my nephew. There are many hypotheses as to the cause of autism that are being researched, but there is no evidence to support the vaccination hypothesis.

282 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:55pm

re: #231 NYCHardhat

I know Jenny McCarthy is a big proponent.

ah, yes, very much dislike her. . .classless and as far as I know. . .has no medical taining and gave her kid some form of rx that was for plants. . .against medical advice. . .

283 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:39:56pm

Dr. Paul Offit is a champion of vaccination. He's written several books on the topic, and has received death threats for his troubles.

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

"But Offit, chief of infectious diseases at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and the nation's most outspoken advocate for childhood immunizations, is at the center of a white-hot medical controversy. He believes passionately in the safety of vaccines; his enemies, many of them parents who blame these shots for their children's autism, do not. Offit says he's been harassed in public, and received threatening letters, e-mails and phone calls. One August morning, his wife, Bonnie, sent him a message before he spoke at a New York press conference promoting vaccination. Worried that protesters rallying outside the event might turn violent, she warned: "Be careful."

Immunologists were hardly the target of such wrath when Offit, 57, entered the field almost 30 years ago. But today, frustrations and fears about a mysterious brain disorder that strikes up to one in 150 kids have given rise to the most angry and divisive debate in medicine: do vaccines trigger autism? Offit, a vaccine inventor, says "no." His critics, who vilify him routinely on autism Web sites, say the question is still very much open. They think he's arrogant and a mouthpiece for Big Pharma. One recent post: "Offit should be prosecuted for crimes against our children." After the death threat—a man wrote, "I will hang you by your neck until you are dead"—an armed guard followed Offit to lunch during meetings at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

But the scientist refuses to back down. In his new book, "Autism's False Prophets: Bad Science, Risky Medicine, and the Search for a Cure," Offit takes on his critics full-force, challenging them to prove the science wrong. Fearing for his safety, he isn't doing a book tour. "People think of me as this wild-eyed maniac," Offit says. "If I sat down with them for 10 minutes, they'd see that my motivation is the same as theirs. You want what's best for kids." Asked how he ranks the intensity of the vitriol aimed at him, Offit says simply, "Abortion, doctors who perform abortions.""

284 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:40:06pm

re: #271 buzzsawmonkey

We keep getting the fear campaigns fed to us by the ignorant and the people with agendas. And personally I'm very tired of even listening to it.

Vaccines are there for our greater good. And if you dont like them you can move to Zimbabwe or .. Gambia where your healthcare wont cover things like Ebola or worse. You are in a country with the mechanisms in place to make your kids healthy and happy.

Why not use them?

285 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:40:29pm

I read somewhere not too long ago that Ashland and Eugene, Oregon are the capitals of the "anti-vaccination movement".

Don't remember where I read it, perhaps it was USA Today.

286 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:40:35pm
There is absolutely no evidence that measles-mumps-rubella vaccine (MMR) causes autism, and parents who buy into this madness are endangering not only their own children, but everyone else’s kids as well. This is a very scary phenomenon.

I have friends who did not have their second child vaccinated because their first one was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum. Well guess what, the second one has it worse.

IF autism is being caused by something outside of genetics we won't know for ages because of these freaking nutjobs who decide timing = proof. Even McCain was on about this garbage. Few things make me angrier than the focus on the 'popular' culprit that has been proven wrong more than once.

My son is on the spectrum. The signs were there before he had the MMR vaccine. And I'd wager it's the same for most kids.

287 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:40:39pm

Oh.... dear.

/backs slowly away

288 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:40:40pm

re: #262 Buster Bunny
And you assume I don't know what I am talking about. Babies "dying out in the wild" is more from a lack of nurturing.

289 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:40:55pm

re: #276 Maximu§

Im sorry you have gone through what you have...It is a personal choice based on your family med history. It may not be for everyone. I know...been there.

290 acwgusa  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:40:59pm

Like we Californians need any more help in proving to the rest of the country that we are indeed the land of fruits and nuts.

291 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:01pm

re: #273 UberInfidel67

Sir, I believe you one hundred percent. These things do occur. And who would know better than the parent when they weigh the evidence of before and after with their child. We know our kids and we know when something is wrong. We think and boil it down to a cause. Again, I believe you.

I was there I watched it happen right before my eyes.

292 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:01pm

re: #133 Timbre

I'm sorry about your child. But are you absolutely sure of cause and effect in your situation?

He's not. The causes of autism are not known, but it tends to manifest shortly after the time that MMR is recommended to be given, 18 to 30 months IIRC. Study after study have shown no connection between vaccinations and autism. Mrs. Hawk and I have a child, and after the possibility of a birth defect like Down's Syndrome, increased due to maternal age, autism was our greatest fear. There is anecdotal evidence that gluten may be involved, and Mrs. Hawk cut the crust from Little Hawk's bread for about the first four years of his life.

293 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:01pm

re: #102 Charles

Some of you must have missed my comment above, because some of the worst anti-vax garbage is being promoted by one of the most right-wing media sources in America, Weird Nut Drooly.

Charles -

Here we are talking about guys out of Dr. Strangelove. They were NUTTERS then and remain so.

-S-

294 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:04pm

re: #272 mikalm

Speaking of "medical dissidents" -- how many Lizards are familiar with the anti-(male)circumcision movement?

Let me leave it at this: My foreskin has served me good, with zero health problems as a side effect.

295 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:05pm

re: #273 UberInfidel67

Sir, I believe you one hundred percent. These things do occur. And who would know better than the parent when they weigh the evidence of before and after with their child. We know our kids and we know when something is wrong. We think and boil it down to a cause. Again, I believe you.

Vaccinations are great, but I will second that.

296 mikalm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:33pm

re: #275 Nevergiveup

That toughs to discuss on here, because all us guys find it hard to type with both hands over our dicks!

I once saw some literature from "anti-circ" folks showing photos of botched circumcisions. Man, did I wince when I saw them!

297 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:35pm

re: #259 Gozer the Carpathian

My friend's kid is Autistic and she's pretty sure it's from these shots as well. My daughter is coming up on 4 months old and hence right in line for shots. She's told us her misgivings BUT she's not as "off the hinge" as some are. She says they've "fixed" things in recent years but warns us off of the flu vaccine.

*Shrugs*

I'm going to protect my daughter every which way I can that's all that really matters to me. :D

You are very right in doing that.
If you do vaccine (which I do not disagree with) do only one at a time. No more. It's the best advice I can give you.

298 jantjepietje  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:41:52pm

re: #30 Charles

You're simply wrong about that. This particular crazy idea completely crosses the left-right barrier. There are just as many 'conservatives' who are doing it.

Just out of curiosity in your observation does it cross the high-low education line as well?

299 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:42:04pm

re: #276 Maximu§

I'm outta here, but until your a parent and you have raised children.....its better to STFU on subjects like this, because you really are out of your league. I bet everyone who dinged me down has no kids.

Watch your precious baby suffer after one of those Mercury soaked shots runs through his system and than come talk to me.


I have. . .8 kids. . .so YOU STFU and quit teling me how to raise mine!

300 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:42:05pm

re: #285 Ringo the Gringo

I read somewhere not too long ago that Ashland and Eugene, Oregon are the capitals of the "anti-vaccination movement".

Don't remember where I read it, perhaps it was USA Today.

And I read somewhere about a day or two ago .. that a Texas used a LIGHTER to check his fuel tank.

Didnt work out so well. Gives me greater confidence in Texans tho .. not.

301 monkeytime  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:42:25pm

re: #268 cichco

You are bias because of your experience with your sister and her child.
I am 28, 21 when I had my child.
Perfect health.
I don't drink or smoke...
My child has 5 shots in one day because I trust my doctor...
my child starts crying to touch.
Then doesn't speak till almost four.
It was my health that did that? My child was fine, perfect the day I took my child to the doctor.
Believe me, when I was FIRST told to have my child tested I said "All children are different, my child will come along."
In preschool, again "You should have your child tested."
I ignored it again, what the hell do THEY know?

Kindergarten - that is when the ball really dropped.

Took 7 people to tell me to have my child tested... and yes, I still look back on those shots.

Do I place blame, no. I'd rather have him alive than dead with a serious condition. However, it has made parts of his interaction with the WORLD much harder, as well as my ability to reach and care for my child.

This topic is something that won't fully be understood until 1. the research really does come out (because big pharma is big) and 2. you have a child with the same conditions (or at least under the "umbrella.")

I'm sorry to hear about this. I bet your son is very precious indeed. I will keep you both in my prayers as I have other friends with Autistic children.

302 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:42:31pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

I didn't say it was your health, I said it was my sster's inthe case of my nephew. There are many hypotheses as to the cause of autism that are being researched, but there is no evidence to support the vaccination hypothesis.

YET. It's because BIG PHARMA is doing these "tests."

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

303 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:42:40pm

re: #266 JohnnyReb

That was mean and uncalled for. I can understand your frustration, but that was mean.

Did you miss the part when Sharmata told me to 'fuck off"?

I thought so...

304 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:43:06pm

re: #303 Maximu§

You started with the potty talk.

305 Gozer the Carpathian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:43:15pm

re: #272 mikalm

Speaking of "medical dissidents" -- how many Lizards are familiar with the anti-(male)circumcision movement?

Yeah I've heard about that. Wierd. I have a daughter so no worries there but if I get a son next I plan to have him circumcised. Better as a baby then a man. :)

306 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:43:36pm

Here's an article about Ashland , OR, where more than 1 in 4 kids are not vacinated!

The town of 20,000 on the flanks of the Siskiyou Mountains in southwestern Oregon has always been different. In the early 20th century it was on the Chautauqua lecture circuit, and the sulfurous waters of Lithia Springs drew visitors looking for a cure for what ailed them.


Today, it has one of the highest rates in the nation for vaccine exemptions — 28% and rising in kindergartens, compared with about 4% statewide. One alternative school has 67%.

A liberal outpost in a conservative region, Ashland likes to go its own way. The city has its own water and electric utilities, and was a pioneer promoting solar energy, high-speed Internet, and dog parks. It has serious debates about whether to cut down trees to expand the library or whether to allow a woman to ride her bicycle naked in the Fourth of July parade.

307 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:43:39pm

re: #294 so.cal.swede

Let me leave it at this: My foreskin has served me good, with zero health problems as a side effect.

swede -

And as long as all 'y'all use SOAP and WATER - no real problem. In the "Ancient World" - Not So Much.

-S-

308 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:43:39pm

The lack of civility on this thread by some of the regulars is disturbing.

309 cichco  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:43:58pm

re: #301 monkeytime

thank you :) (and my child is really precious!)

310 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:44:14pm

y'all sound like barbra boxer (or was it nancy pelosi?) talking about how you can't make any decisions about the Iraq war because you don't have children.

311 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:44:27pm

re: #303 Maximu§

Let us agree to go back to the mutual GAZE we had with each other, because I personally think you are an all around asshole, Mr. "the Serbs were right to burn the US embassy".

312 big L  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:44:46pm

I wonder if any study has addressed drug use by the parents and the posible chromosome damage and mitrochondrial mal-functions.

313 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:44:55pm

re: #308 Irish Rose

The lack of civility on this thread by some of the regulars is disturbing.

I agree with that. THis is emotional for a lot of people.

314 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:44:57pm

re: #294 so.cal.swede

Let me leave it at this: My foreskin has served me good, with zero health problems as a side effect.


My JEWISH BOYS will keep the covenant. . thank you

315 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:45:03pm

Why do so many people quote wiki? Don't you know that anyone can inject their own pet theories and revisions into the narrative? Jeesh.

316 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:45:22pm

re: #308 Irish Rose

agreed

317 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:45:50pm

re: #276 Maximu§

I'm outta here, but until your a parent and you have raised children.....its better to STFU on subjects like this, because you really are out of your league. I bet everyone who dinged me down has no kids.

Watch your precious baby suffer after one of those Mercury soaked shots runs through his system and than come talk to me.

Do you guys even realise how GREAT the amounts need to be to achieve toxicity in these products? You'd have to swallow a thermometers worth of Mercury to be poisoned with the stuff .. and you'd have to sit there licking lead pipes for six months before you started showing any detrimental effects !

The point is that with multiple avenues of absorption .. the point you approach for toxicity is substantially more likely. Hence the need for reducing it in most household circumstances.

And even the lead paint on Chinese toys wont kill you. Its just not enough.

318 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:45:53pm

re: #276 Maximu§

I'm outta here, but until your a parent and you have raised children.....its better to STFU on subjects like this, because you really are out of your league. I bet everyone who dinged me down has no kids.

Watch your precious baby suffer after one of those Mercury soaked shots runs through his system and than come talk to me.

You are promoting nonsense that has already claimed childrens lives, and will again if it continues to spread. You do this without even bothering to read links that prove that this scare story is unfounded and based on nothing more than a distorted and thoroughly dishonest study by a discredited doctor.

319 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:45:54pm

re: #307 Dr. Shalit

swede -

And as long as all 'y'all use SOAP and WATER - no real problem. In the "Ancient World" - Not So Much.

-S-


I think penile infections was a minor concern in the "ancient world" compared to, say, death by sword, death by rapings, death by bear, death by gum disease, death by plague, death by common cold.

320 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:46:05pm

this is child abuse. plain and simple. these kids are going to suffer needlessly
and be part of a bigger spread of diseases that were conquered yrs. ago thru
major advances in science and medicine.
this b.s is really a huge backward step in public health.

these parents are so irresponsible. and dangerous.

321 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:46:14pm

Obviously this is a very emotional subject. Very emotional people are more susceptible to scams and quackery.

322 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:46:34pm

re: #314 DisturbedEma

My JEWISH BOYS will keep the covenant. . thank you

I must admit I always hide in another room but I do come out for the lox and whitefish.

323 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:46:36pm

re: #303 Maximu§

Did you miss the part when Sharmata told me to 'fuck off"?

I thought so...

How many of the scientists warning against the shots are parents? Did you check? I mean if only PARENTS are allowed to pipe up. . .

I cannot stand people who talk down to those they disagree with. . .

324 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:46:52pm

re: #268 cichco

This topic is something that won't fully be understood until 1. the research really does come out (because big pharma is big) and 2. you have a child with the same conditions (or at least under the "umbrella.")

Big Legal is Big, too. You think law firms haven't been doing their own studies independently? There's a freaking gold mine here. They've found nothing or it would have come out. Nothing.

I am a mother of a special needs child. I do NOT blame the shots. But I do wish we were getting more investigation of other factors that might be the cause.

And BTW -- my FiL has undiagnosed Aspergers. He's classic. Fits every category. Looks pretty good for genetics. It certainly shouldn't be discounted.

325 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:47:26pm

re: #315 vagabond trader

Why do so many people quote wiki? Don't you know that anyone can inject their own pet theories and revisions into the narrative? Jeesh.

Can I quote Web MD then?

What causes autism?

Autism tends to run in families, so experts think it may be something that you inherit. Scientists are trying to find out exactly which genes may be responsible for passing down autism in families.

Other studies are looking at whether autism can be caused by other medical problems or by something in your child’s surroundings.

Some people think that childhood vaccines cause autism, especially the measles-mumps-rubella, or MMR, vaccine. But studies have not shown this to be true. It’s important to make sure that your child gets all childhood vaccines. They help keep your child from getting serious diseases that can cause harm or even death.

326 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:47:35pm

re: #306 Ringo the Gringo

Here's an article about Ashland , OR, where more than 1 in 4 kids are not vacinated!

The town of 20,000 on the flanks of the Siskiyou Mountains in southwestern Oregon has always been different. In the early 20th century it was on the Chautauqua lecture circuit, and the sulfurous waters of Lithia Springs drew visitors looking for a cure for what ailed them.

Ashland has a big community of believers in Faith Healing as well, there were indictments against some parents for deaths in treatable maladies there last year.

327 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:47:49pm

re: #317 Buster Bunny

Do you guys even realise how GREAT the amounts need to be to achieve toxicity in these products? You'd have to swallow a thermometers worth of Mercury to be poisoned with the stuff .. and you'd have to sit there licking lead pipes for six months before you started showing any detrimental effects !

The point is that with multiple avenues of absorption .. the point you approach for toxicity is substantially more likely. Hence the need for reducing it in most household circumstances.

And even the lead paint on Chinese toys wont kill you. Its just not enough.

And Max left out the fact that there is more "mercury soaking" in the flu shots than kid shots. . .another inconvient truth for the shot troofers. . .

328 jantjepietje  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:47:49pm

re: #247 itellu3times

I am very skeptical about the competence and honesty of the medical profession and the drug industry. However, I am under no illusions about the seriousness of the disease organisms! Lesser of two evils.


If you have no confidence in the drug industry getting rid of the disease organisms why bother? Lesser of two evils hardly applies here I'd say.
I can very well understand that people are iffy about taking experimental or extremely new medicine but if it has been around for some time and thousands or even millions of people have taken it it really takes a conspiracy mindset to think there still is some hidden secret.

329 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:48:13pm

re: #291 Maximu§

I was there I watched it happen right before my eyes.

Yeah, but you didn't watch WHY it was happening before your very eyes; that part you assumed. And, according to all the empirical evidence, assumed wrongly, simply due to a happenstance temporal coincidence with vaccination that you misinterpreted as causality.

330 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:48:14pm
331 june_july  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:48:25pm

As a teenager I recall reading a science fiction story in which America has become a science-hating nation, in which a messianic leader implores the people to reject "scientific advancement", and scientists are gradually removed from all positions of authority and power. They are forced to hide their work, or give it up. In the last scenes of the book a mob attacks a rocketship fleet that is full of scientists who wish to flee earth for a better future, destroying one or two rockets on the ground, while the rest of the scientists escape Earth and look to a better future free of superstition and in control of their own destiny.

I am reminded of that story too frequently these days, as forces of totalitarianism, group-control, and superstitious ignorance seem to threaten our future from all directions.

332 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:48:43pm

I believe in immunization because I do genealogy. The data sometimes makes me wince. One little girl died a month before her brother was born. One woman lost two boys in a month.

My mother's generation lost two--both to accidents.

The first of my cousins to die was 31.

I believe in modern medicine, including immunizations.

333 opnion  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:48:50pm

Later Gators

334 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:49:07pm

re: #303 Maximu§

Did you miss the part when Sharmata told me to 'fuck off"?

I thought so...

Ok Ok..let's chill out a bit..We are talking about children here...I deeply feel for your child max..I can understand your pain...There is no reason to raise the voice here...
We had 6 children..We buried one Oct 13th 2005...This was always a scientific discussion and never meant to get personal..right Charles?

335 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:49:07pm

right wrong or otherwise I have to say my heart goes out to anyone who has or had a sick or troubled child...I had a brush with terror when my daughter had a tumor on her spine...it was very dicey and I freaked out so bad I could hardly breath for months...she almost died...just the memory tears me up...I am almost obsessed with children and I can only imagine what Maximus and others must be feeling here....I hope everyone comes to terms with their fortunes and finds some peace...that's all I can contribute

336 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:49:21pm

My brother is a medical doctor. If you wish to see his blood pressure rise, you bring up crap like this. The fact of the matter is that very, very few people have a clue about science and they are easily scared by it. Science serves as the mysticism of this culture in many ways. I mean that very literally. As far as the common person is concerned, it might as well be magic, and because of that it is very easy for charlatans looking for press to scare the masses.

Remember the eighties where everything caused cancer?

The problem of course is that when it comes to things like mass vaccinations, these people threaten other kids as well as there own. So here is the serious ethical/legal question.

I am not posing it to make everyone angry, I am posing it because I honestly do not know the answer. At what point is it the job of society to step in and prevent bad parents from making really stupid medical calls?

What about the case of the parents who refuse a routine and well established treatment for religious reasons that would heal a child, were warned that if left untreated the child could very well die - and the child dies?

What about the case where the actions of others threaten your own children. I mean for instance, if a child came in with lice or fleas, at no point would this be acceptable and measures would be taken. Does this apply to vaccinations as well?

I am asking because I am sincerely curious how the tension here gets resolved for other people.

337 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:49:29pm

I'm well vaccinated. But Thalidomide gave me a lasting impression that drug companies and scientists were not to be trusted without some due diligence. $$$$. I am sure many people have this same perception.

Autism is not so rare. And is considered a spectrum disorder. The Thimerosal concerns also make me think $$$$.

Yellow fever Vaccine can have an adverse effect. I had a severe fever for three days after taking it.

I think much like cardiac and cancer treatments we want vaccine treatments to improve over time. The few studies I looked at did micro analysis. I think a macro analysis of autism and vaccine would be more revealing to the general population and assuage a lot of concerns. Like giving the MMR at different ages, doses, in different regions. I am afraid that I don't really trust doctors or scientists with regards to working with individuals and vaccines. Their history is bad.

Antrhax vaccinations have the following effects.

Mild local reactions occur in 30% of recipients and consist of slight tenderness and redness at the injection site. Severe local reactions are infrequent and consist of extensive swelling of the forearm in addition to the local reaction. Systemic reactions occur in fewer than 0.2% of recipients.

A vaccine is designed for a genetic population and not an individual. There will be some causalities via vaccination. But compared to the 1918 flu epidemic or whooping cough outbreaks that is considered a necessary outcome of the vaccine. At some point we should be able to tell who will have an adverse reaction to the vaccine. We would exempt that person but have everyone else accept the social norm of vacinnations.

338 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:49:30pm

re: #314 DisturbedEma

My JEWISH BOYS will keep the covenant. . thank you

You know get or don't get it, this isn't vaccinations ( Though disease could be spread).
The part that bugs me about that is the guys who ARE circumsized who want to get surgery or hang weights from their equipment to recreate the foreskin.
Messing around with your dick like that is NOT a good idea.
Definitely not sexually enhancening.
And if you aren't sort of comfy with your own body , well how can some strange woman you just met at a laundromat be ?

339 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:49:46pm

re: #329 Salamantis

Yeah, but you didn't watch WHY it was happening before your very eyes; that part you assumed. And, according to all the empirical evidence, assumed wrongly, simply due to a happenstance temporal coincidence with vaccination that you misinterpreted as causality.

Shut up Sal, I'm done talking to you.

340 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:49:57pm

well, let's propose that vaccinations actually DO cause autism in 0.001% of the population.

Nevermind researching safer vaccinations for a second, is it worth protecting everyone else from polio, MMR, etc, etc?

Not to sound too cruel, but i think so.

341 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:50:05pm

re: #319 so.cal.swede

I think penile infections was a minor concern in the "ancient world" compared to, say, death by sword, death by rapings, death by bear, death by gum disease, death by plague, death by common cold.

I'm more worried about the stuff the Africans have discovered. Like shaking hands with the wrong people can make your penis shrink. Sure I know its not leading edge science, but .. I now wash my hands before shaking other peoples ...

... Just in Case.

342 JHW  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:50:06pm
On July 6, 1886, 9 year old Joseph Meister and his mother appeared at Pasteur's laboratory. Two days earlier the young boy had been bitten repeatedly by a rabid dog. He was so badly mauled that he could hardly walk. His mother appealed to Pasteur to treat her son. At the time Pasteur had treated about 40 dogs, most of whom resisted rabies. Could he risk treating this youth who faced certain death? Pasteur, after consultation with physician colleagues, and much trepidation treated the youth. Despite Pasteur's fears, Meister made a perfect recovery and remained in fine health for the remainder of his life.

A few months later a second victim turned up. He was a young shepherd also bitten by a mad dog. Following reports of his successful treatments, the wild acclaim for Pasteur knew no bounds! Victims of dog and wolf bites from France, Russia, the United States poured into his laboratory for treatment. The newspapers and public followed these treatments and cures with intense interest. Pasteur became a hero and a legend. The Pasteur Institute funded by public and governmental subscriptions was built in Paris initially to treat victims of rabies who were coming to Pasteur's laboratory in increasing numbers. Later, Pasteur Institutes were built, including 3 in the United States, to deal with human rabies and other diseases.

Rabies was the last major research of the master scientist. His health was failing and a paralysis of his left side from a serious stroke he suffered in his 46th year made his working in the laboratory increasingly difficult. Pasteur died in 1895 after suffering additional strokes. He was buried, a national hero, by the French Government. His funeral was attended by thousands of people. His remains, initially interred in the Cathedral of Notre Dame, was transferred to a permanent crypt in the Pasteur Institute, Paris.

In a tragic footnote to history, Joseph Meister, the first person publicly to receive the rabies vaccine, returned to the Pasteur Institute as an employee where he served for many years as Gatekeeper. In 1940, 45 years after his treatment for rabies that made medical history, he was ordered by the German occupiers of Paris to open Pasteur's crypt. Rather than comply, Joseph Meister committed suicide!

Louis Pasteur did not have any children of his own.
Life and Times of Louis Pasteur

343 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:50:06pm

re: #314 DisturbedEma

My JEWISH BOYS will keep the covenant. . thank you

V- necks always were more stylish than turtle-necks in my opinion :)

344 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:50:13pm

re: #151 Maximu§

Ah, you don't have kids.....than BUTT OUT! You don't know S**T until your a parent and its YOUR child suffering!

Your child's problem doesn't give you the right to be rude, nor does it make you part of a club that miraculously knows more about diseases than people who don't have kids.

345 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:50:15pm

re: #325 Sharmuta

Why quote, you seem to know just about everything.

346 debutaunt  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:50:34pm

re: #261 kawfytawk

illegal immigration....and legal travel...you don't have to show a shot record at the border/customs

Thomas Sowell really had it right. We have replaced what worked with what doesn't work. It's very dangerous.

347 Gozer the Carpathian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:50:50pm

re: #297 cichco

You are very right in doing that.
If you do vaccine (which I do not disagree with) do only one at a time. No more. It's the best advice I can give you.

That's kinda the plan when we get there. My wife is a bit concerned so I figure get the shots, just not all at once. So in case it is a reaction to a overdose or overwhelming of the system she still gets the benefits without as much risk of over dosing.

Plus anything that alieviates her anxiety I'm all for. :)

348 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:51:06pm

re: #270 albusteve

we have had several cases of plague here in NM in the last couple of years...yup...straight up the Rio Grande from Mexico

Plague is endemic to the SW US. It doesn't have to travel up from Mexico.

349 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:51:16pm

re: #338 Jimash

laundromat ha? That works?

350 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:51:19pm

re: #319 so.cal.swede

I think penile infections was a minor concern in the "ancient world" compared to, say, death by sword, death by rapings, death by bear, death by gum disease, death by plague, death by common cold.

Circumcision is just cosmetic surgery with very minor health benefits and some religious overtones. The RN I mentioned earlier also claimed that the doctors were motivated by greed to perform the procedure. She didn't actually say Jewish doctors, but I suspect that it was implied.

351 Ringo the Gringo  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:51:27pm

re: #326 Thanos

Ashland has a big community of believers in Faith Healing as well, there were indictments against some parents for deaths in treatable maladies there last year.

Wicca is also very popular in Ashland and Eugene.

352 rexfromars  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:51:28pm

Californians are idiots. That's all I've got to say.

353 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:51:34pm

re: #302 cichco

YET. It's because BIG PHARMA is doing these "tests."

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I already said it, but because you're being rude to Sharmuta, I'll say it again.

Big Legal is also doing studies. There is a gold mine to be made if they find something. They haven't or they'd have used them. Not even a nibble they can manipulate.

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! right back atcha.

354 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:51:43pm

one of my children is severely autistic- 2 others asre on the spectrum- and I would not change them, and I had the twins in for their shots right on schedule. . .

Go on Max- tell me I fucked up. . .I dare you to question the decisions I made for my children. . .

355 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:52:16pm

re: #317 Buster Bunny

Do you guys even realise how GREAT the amounts need to be to achieve toxicity in these products? You'd have to swallow a thermometers worth of Mercury to be poisoned with the stuff .. and you'd have to sit there licking lead pipes for six months before you started showing any detrimental effects !

The point is that with multiple avenues of absorption .. the point you approach for toxicity is substantially more likely. Hence the need for reducing it in most household circumstances.

And even the lead paint on Chinese toys wont kill you. Its just not enough.

Earlier today, I was talking with somebody about how my mom would let us play with the mercury when a thermometer broke. She would sit with us and would make sure we knew not to eat it, but we played with the mercury every time we had a thermometer break.

And I'm OK.
I think.

356 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:52:32pm

re: #276 Maximu§

I bet everyone who dinged me down has no kids.

And I would bet that you'd lose that bet.

357 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:52:35pm

re: #346 debutaunt

Thomas Sowell really had it right. We have replaced what worked with what doesn't work. It's very dangerous.

you got that right

358 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:52:39pm

re: #342 JHW

That's sick. What did they want the tomb opened for?

359 monkeytime  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:52:42pm

re: #291 Maximu§

I was there I watched it happen right before my eyes.

Being a parent and knowing when my child had an ear infection before the doctor could diagnose it, I know I what you mean about "knowing your child". The doctor would treat me like I was crazy and I would say "see you tomorrow" and sure enough - raging fevor the next day. I wonder if some children could have a reaction to something in the vaccine not saying its mercury. It is very very sad though.

360 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:52:50pm

re: #331 june_july

As a teenager I recall reading a science fiction story in which America has become a science-hating nation, in which a messianic leader implores the people to reject "scientific advancement", and scientists are gradually removed from all positions of authority and power. They are forced to hide their work, or give it up. In the last scenes of the book a mob attacks a rocketship fleet that is full of scientists who wish to flee earth for a better future, destroying one or two rockets on the ground, while the rest of the scientists escape Earth and look to a better future free of superstition and in control of their own destiny.

I am reminded of that story too frequently these days, as forces of totalitarianism, group-control, and superstitious ignorance seem to threaten our future from all directions.

Sounds a bit like A Canticle for Leibowitz:

"A Canticle for Leibowitz opens 600 years after 20th century civilization has been destroyed by a global nuclear war, known as the "Flame Deluge". The text reveals that as a result of the war there was a violent backlash against the culture of advanced knowledge and technology that had led to the development of nuclear weapons. During this backlash, called the "Simplification," anyone of learning, and eventually anyone who could even read, was likely to be killed by rampaging mobs, who proudly took on the name of "Simpletons". Illiteracy became almost universal, and books were destroyed en masse."

361 Flyovercountry  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:53:01pm

Charles,

I debated about writing this post, but here it goes. My son is autistic. I realize that I am not a decent sample size by myself. But I can relate my own story. Aaron was stringing simple sentences together at 12 months. In most respects, his development was typical in every way. at 18 months, he received this vaccine. This is the time it is given in Ohio, (I realize that different states have differing times.) That was the last day Aaron spoke. Before you cast aspersions on anyone, you need to understand the reference of their point of view. To be certain, there were some subtle clues into Aaron's condition. But, there was also a definite step backwards in his development. From speaking with many other parents in the Autism Society, and several support groups, I can tell you that my story is far from unique. It is possible that more than one trigger is needed for this to happen. What ever it was, it was sudden. Please don't dismiss people as crazy for suspecting this as the culprit. The reason this vaccine is suspected, is that allot of parents noticed a sudden change in their children immediately following this vaccine being administered. I don't know if you have children. I don't think you can understand a parents desperation to see them cured.

362 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:53:11pm

re: #233 Nevergiveup

Yup, I even learned how on hot day, when you are sweating, a hot cup of coffee can cool ya down. Now that shows how much I learned to love Israel!

What I remember about that coffee---it was at night---and it was very cold (the weather, not the coffee). In fact my last trip to Israel the weather was freezing cold and raining the whole time I was there.

363 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:53:21pm

re: #4 Charles

One of the worst promoters of this evil crap is World Net Daily, by the way.

Yeah, it's the convergence of the loony right and loony left.

364 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:53:27pm

re: #61 Soona'

The very same thing can be said about "bi-polarism".

And an imbalance in your chi.

365 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:53:39pm

re: #352 rexfromars

Californians are idiots. That's all I've got to say.

Many years ago, the first time I drove into California (coming south out of Oregon on 99) I saw the sign that said: Welcome to California, Land of Fruit and Nuts. I added an "s" to fruit. Then a few miles later I saw Black Butte. I thought: Fruits, nuts, black butts. Yup, just like I thought.

366 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:00pm

Appropriate.

367 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:04pm

re: #339 Maximu§

Shut up Sal, I'm done talking to you.

Niiice come back, but if you are going to play the pitiful parent, better bring your A game- taking your ball and going home is not becoming the zealot. . .

368 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:10pm

re: #365 father_of_10

Many years ago, the first time I drove into California (coming south out of Oregon on 99) I saw the sign that said: Welcome to California, Land of Fruit and Nuts. I added an "s" to fruit. Then a few miles later I saw Black Butte. I thought: Fruits, nuts, black butts. Yup, just like I thought.

You racist!

/

369 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:14pm

What the hell, people... is there a full moon tonight of something?

370 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:19pm

re: #312 big L

I wonder if any study has addressed drug use by the parents and the posible chromosome damage and mitrochondrial mal-functions.

Or something as simple as "family history".

371 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:23pm

re: #347 Gozer the Carpathian

That's kinda the plan when we get there. My wife is a bit concerned so I figure get the shots, just not all at once. So in case it is a reaction to a overdose or overwhelming of the system she still gets the benefits without as much risk of over dosing.

Plus anything that alieviates her anxiety I'm all for. :)

By all means, if the doctor can administer the vaccines separately, do it if it makes you feel better.

But I am telling you, the vaccines are not dangerous for our children. The propaganda about the vaccines is proving to be very dangerous and may become deadly if it keeps going the way it's going.

372 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:28pm

ok, well...Im gonna run...take care..be safe

373 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:37pm

re: #359 monkeytime

Being a parent and knowing when my child had an ear infection before the doctor could diagnose it, I know I what you mean about "knowing your child". The doctor would treat me like I was crazy and I would say "see you tomorrow" and sure enough - raging fevor the next day. I wonder if some children could have a reaction to something in the vaccine not saying its mercury. It is very very sad though.

Not to make light of this, but it's funny how your own kids think they can lie to ya and get away with it. It's like a blinking light on top of their heads going off!

374 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:39pm

re: #348 opilio

Plague is endemic to the SW US. It doesn't have to travel up from Mexico.

yes as it is in similar climates....this was an illegal alien

375 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:40pm

re: #354 DisturbedEma

one of my children is severely autistic- 2 others asre on the spectrum- and I would not change them, and I had the twins in for their shots right on schedule. . .

Go on Max- tell me I fucked up. . .I dare you to question the decisions I made for my children. . .

Of course you took them in on schedule. Meaning this with the greatest respect, I have yet to meet an ema who wouldn't. Our people respect medical science.

376 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:54:43pm

re: #337 hazzyday

And yet .. Thalidomide has made a comeback in recent years. It turns out that aside from the birth defects it causes in pregnant women, it has had major uses in the treatment of leprosy.

I'm quite sure there is a group out there that still believes that Toads cause warts. However it has nothing to do with reality.

377 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:55:04pm
378 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:55:10pm

re: #350 NukeAtomrod

Circumcision is just cosmetic surgery with very minor health benefits and some religious overtones. The RN I mentioned earlier also claimed that the doctors were motivated by greed to perform the procedure. She didn't actually say Jewish doctors, but I suspect that it was implied.


I think the bigger concern is how your kid will fare with his peers, how much ever I'm a proponent for keeping your kids' penises intact (unless if it's for religious purposes), I wouldn't let my son have to go through gym classes as the "anteater". Although, these days it seems there's so little opportunities for communal nakedness even under those circumstances that it might not even matter.

379 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:55:33pm

Why are people who are at odds with reality always such assholes? Whatever happened to all the nice idiots?

380 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:55:55pm

Now I have never thought about it much. But I was on my deathbed at age 7 from measles that developed into pneumonia. Oxygen tent, my parents couldn't chain smoke around me, and painful shots in the ass twice a day. A vaccination could have probably saved me a lot of pain. The ice cream didn't even taste good. I still remember not wanting the shots and yelling about it until a nice nurse talked me into them.

381 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:55:56pm

re: #349 Nevergiveup

laundromat ha? That works?

Well yes, assuming that you are looking, that is a prime spot to do it.
Of course, all such info coming form me is grossly out of date, but I am pretty sure they still have laundromats.

382 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:02pm

re: #345 vagabond trader

Don't be an ass.

383 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:03pm

re: #356 opilio

And I would bet that you'd lose that bet.


I did not ding down. . .but I will not let Max slink off

384 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:11pm

re: #368 Alouette

You racist!

/

Race? I thought I would be accused of being a homophobe!

385 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:15pm

re: #379 Jimmah

Why are people who are at odds with reality always such assholes? Whatever happened to all the nice idiots?

I'm still here....

386 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:33pm

re: #352 rexfromars

Californians are idiots. That's all I've got to say.

You could paint a barn with that broad brush.

Yep, stay the hell out of California. You do not want to live here. It is horrible! Tell all your friends.
/

387 JHW  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:36pm

re: #358 EmmmieG

I don't know the answer to that , I can only guess it was because of rivalry and jealousy with them championing Robert Koch as more important than Pasteur. Koch was a Berliner and I believe jealous of Pasteur.

388 midwestgak  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:45pm

re: #355 reine.de.tout

Earlier today, I was talking with somebody about how my mom would let us play with the mercury when a thermometer broke. She would sit with us and would make sure we knew not to eat it, but we played with the mercury every time we had a thermometer break.

And I'm OK.
I think.

Hi {reine}. I played with mercury too, with mercury too, with mercury . . ./
No other liquid like it. The vilian in The Terminator 2 was mercury like.

389 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:56:54pm

re: #341 Buster Bunny

I'm more worried about the stuff the Africans have discovered. Like shaking hands with the wrong people can make your penis shrink. Sure I know its not leading edge science, but .. I now wash my hands before shaking other peoples ...

... Just in Case.

Considering the emotional level of some of this conversation, your light heated comment above STINKS... idiot.

390 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:57:05pm

Koh, No? Critics Decry Obama Nominee for State Department Legal Adviser
Harold Koh, President Obama's pick to become one of the State Department's top lawyers, has ignited fury among critics who say his legal views are a threat to American democracy.

FOXNews.com

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Here is the guy we were talking about in the last thread.

391 kawfytawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:57:10pm

re: #371 kynna

By all means, if the doctor can administer the vaccines separately, do it if it makes you feel better.

But I am telling you, the vaccines are not dangerous for our children. The propaganda about the vaccines is proving to be very dangerous and may become deadly if it keeps going the way it's going.

nothing is 100 percent but if you or your child have a valid history with bad reactions to Immunizations...this should be between the doc and patient and not LGF posters debating the merit of caution...IMHO

ok I am really gone

392 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:57:33pm

re: #369 Irish Rose

What the hell, people... is there a full moon tonight of something?

I resent being talked down to by the sooooo concerned parent. . .

393 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:57:34pm

re: #291 Maximu§ I'm sure you did and I know that would suck. Ya'll got me thinking now: when I was little I took "febrile seizures". When I would get a fever, I had to sit in a tub of friggin' ice water to lower my temp. My mom said she found me in my crib just completely unresponsive. Then again, I am thinking, my vaccinations were all one shot right before I went to school. I have a scar on my arm from it. Did they do seperate baby shots to people my age...41?

394 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:57:47pm

re: #330 buzzsawmonkey

My dad died of an aortic aneurysm. They opened him up before they knew what was wrong with him and that was the end.

Thank heaven (I'm sure you do) your dad came out as well as he did.

My best friend just found out yesterday that her son (39, fit as a fiddle, ski instructor in Colorado) has a brain tumor. His chances are not particularly good...they'll do surgery tomorrow. The doctors, I am certain, would love nothing more than to save his life and have him function at 100% again. If it doesn't end that way, she will say "everything happens for a reason".

Medicine is a tough field. It truly is "practicing".

395 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:57:47pm

re: #389 Walter L. Newton

I agree its a little tense.

396 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:57:49pm

re: #350 NukeAtomrod

Circumcision is just cosmetic surgery with very minor health benefits and some religious overtones. The RN I mentioned earlier also claimed that the doctors were motivated by greed to perform the procedure. She didn't actually say Jewish doctors, but I suspect that it was implied.

When my son was born in Seattle in 1974, we had NO CIRC prominently displayed on his chart (because we planned to have the mohel do it, on day 8). This was back in pre-moonbat times, and the intern and pediatric resident came rushing to explain the benefits of infant circumcision. Today they would try to talk you out of it.

397 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:58:11pm

re: #369 Irish Rose

What the hell, people... is there a full moon tonight of something?

full moon thread topic. just like the creationism ones.

398 Salem  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:58:17pm

Just saw Elmer Gantry on TCM. Great movie.

399 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:58:53pm

re: #369 Irish Rose

It's usually the new moon , recalling my experience working at the nervous hospital.

400 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:59:01pm

re: #4 Charles

One of the worst promoters of this evil crap is World Net Daily, by the way.

And I find the people who buy into this nonsense are educated and wealthy. At least in my leftist saturated world. I am constantly amazed.

Me, I'd love to know exactly why my son has autism. But focusing on debunked theories for more and more decades is not the way it's going to happen.

401 monkeytime  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:59:05pm

re: #373 Nevergiveup

Not to make light of this, but it's funny how your own kids think they can lie to ya and get away with it. It's like a blinking light on top of their heads going off!

That is hilarious you say that becuase I told my kids I could "read" their foreheads and see that they were lying. They would try to cover their foreheads - it was hilarious.

402 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:59:29pm

re: #379 Jimmah

Why are people who are at odds with reality always such assholes? Whatever happened to all the nice idiots?


hey, I am not a mean idiot. . .I'm just drawn that way. . .

403 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 4:59:54pm

re: #399 vagabond trader

It's usually the new moon , recalling my experience working at the nervous hospital.

If I say the new moon was nights ago will you make a snide comment about me knowing things again?

404 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:00:14pm

re: #360 zombie

I want a "Canticle for Leibowitz" made into an excellent movie. If the screenplay closes matches the book, I will buy it. Did you ever try reading the sequel, "St. L. and the Wild Horse Woman?" Very obtuse, imo.

405 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:00:15pm

re: #87 Kosh's Shadow

Eventually. Everyone dies.

My freshman class is reading "The Book Thief" by Markus Zusak. Brief background, it's set in Germany during the Nazi period, and is narrated by Death, personified.

Kid, today, in class, speaking of the protagonist: "Is she gonna die, Mrs. SFZ?"

Me: Of course. Everyone is going to die. Don't you remember, our narrator told us that on page one.

Kid: Wide eyed horrified stare, while classmates comment, "Oh, yeah, that was on page one."

406 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:00:18pm

re: #350 NukeAtomrod

Circumcision is just cosmetic surgery with very minor health benefits and some religious overtones. The RN I mentioned earlier also claimed that the doctors were motivated by greed to perform the procedure. She didn't actually say Jewish doctors, but I suspect that it was implied.

Believe it or don't, the Jewish community has specially trained guys called mohels to perform the circumcisions. Jewish doctors, unless they are already moonlighting as mohels have nothing to gain financially from increased circumcisions.

407 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:00:21pm

re: #332 EmmmieG

I believe in immunization because I do genealogy. The data sometimes makes me wince. One little girl died a month before her brother was born. One woman lost two boys in a month.

My mother's generation lost two--both to accidents.

The first of my cousins to die was 31.

I believe in modern medicine, including immunizations.

We do not have to go back too far in time. Look at the infant mortality rate in 1940 and 1950. Scary and real because I could have been a stastic in the 1950s.

408 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:00:23pm

re: #339 Maximu§

Shut up Sal, I'm done talking to you.

Fuck you very much, you execrable nimrod! I will NOT be told to shut up, by you or anyone ELSE here, except for Charles, who has the sole ability to enforce it.

You tell me to shut up because you have no answer to my point, but still want to preserve your cherished and treasured superstitious blaming of vaccinations for your child's malady, and desire to continue to proselytize your groundless belief uncountered, possibly causing other parents to forego vaccinations out of misplaced and misguided (by you) concern for their own childrens' safety, and therefore needlssly expose them to deadly and debilitating infectious diseases.

That ain't gonna fucking happen. Not here. Not now.

409 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:00:38pm

re: #376 Buster Bunny

And yet .. Thalidomide has made a comeback in recent years. It turns out that aside from the birth defects it causes in pregnant women, it has had major uses in the treatment of leprosy.

I'm quite sure there is a group out there that still believes that Toads cause warts. However it has nothing to do with reality.

It's my psychology. I wouldn't touch pork until I was in my late twenties because of grade school classwork on trichinosis. I wouldn't tough a dead rabbit either(still won't) from that cancer type of disease they have. I would get vaccinated today though. I don't think I would want the anthrax vaccination. Mad Cow disease worries me, but I eat meat and I trust the instutitions to do their work.

410 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:01:06pm
411 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:01:07pm

re: #302 cichco

"Big Pharma"? From Nancy Pelosi straight to you. And death threats against a doctor who supports vaccination for children? Is that part of the script as well?

412 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:01:12pm

re: #400 kynna

And I find the people who buy into this nonsense are educated and wealthy. At least in my leftist saturated world. I am constantly amazed.

Me, I'd love to know exactly why my son has autism. But focusing on debunked theories for more and more decades is not the way it's going to happen.

Educated and wealthy never meant sane. I've been at peoples houses who are on rich lists. And yet .. they do stupid things that I myself wouldnt even try when it comes to medications and such. Simply because I've had a doctor as an uncle for most of my life. And even he doesnt do the right thing by himself .. knowing what he knows.

413 NY Nana  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:01:22pm

re: #245 so.cal.swede

Sad. I feel so badly, but this article, on California, and the rising rate of autism, from the Scientific American, is quite an eye-opener.

I still maintain that thimeserol is not related to causing autism, and that one day soon, it will be proven.

414 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:01:23pm

re: #330 buzzsawmonkey

I would like to add that we take medical miracles so much for granted these days that we end up being personally offended--and furious at the medical profession--when these miracles do not perform with 100% accuracy.

My father went in for "routine" open heart surgery. Open heart surgery is a miracle in itself, only possible for a few very recent decades. No problem, right? Well, they noticed a possible aneurysm problem when they opened him up, and after due deliberation elected not to do anything about it.

The aneurysm blew when they restarted his heart. Had this happened after they'd closed him up, he would have simply died on the spot--as it was, they were able to stabilize him, but he was in a coma for six weeks, and until he suddenly regained consciousness there was no indication he ever would.

He had sustained brain damage as a result of this surgically-induced stroke, and the doctors told us that maybe, with intensive therapy, he might possibly learn in time to dress himself. Four weeks later, thank G-d, he was 85% his normal self, though certain of his abilities never came back.

Miracles. And yet we were furious and resentful that something had gone wrong. In the end, we decided it was foolish and destructive to waste our time during his last years pursuing a probably-pointless case for medical malpractice; the doctors were good, had made a reasoned decision, and...it happened they were wrong.

I agree with everything you said, but I would add (and this from my own experiences with my parents) - sometimes you and the docs have done everything it is humanly possible to do - but there are times when the outcome is simply out of your hands.

415 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:01:28pm

re: #314 DisturbedEma
Well, I am not Jewish but I snipped my son. And I will pressure my son and daughter to do the same to any children they may have.

416 Gozer the Carpathian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:02:09pm

re: #371 kynna

By all means, if the doctor can administer the vaccines separately, do it if it makes you feel better.

But I am telling you, the vaccines are not dangerous for our children. The propaganda about the vaccines is proving to be very dangerous and may become deadly if it keeps going the way it's going.

Yeah that's the plan. I wouldn't want her to NOT have the vaccine. Even if it's just a placebo affect I want both my daughter and my wife happy and healthy. :)

417 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:02:22pm

re: #401 monkeytime

That is hilarious you say that becuase I told my kids I could "read" their foreheads and see that they were lying. They would try to cover their foreheads - it was hilarious.

I'm not particularly perceptive, but with your own kids you just know.

418 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:02:31pm

mumps in teenagers has serious repercussions.
it can cause sterility in boys.
and imagine if polio makes a come back. how dreadful.
it is a killer virus.
the only way we got rid of small pox was vaccinating it the hell off the earth.

wow, now modern medicine that helps people and makes life and survival easier everywhere in the world is under attack by kooks.

419 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:02:39pm

re: #408 Salamantis

Fuck you very much, you execrable nimrod! I will NOT be told to shut up, by you or anyone ELSE here, except for Charles, who has the sole ability to enforce it.

You tell me to shut up because you have no answer to my point, but still want to preserve your cherished and treasured superstitious blaming of vaccinations for your child's malady, and desire to continue to proselytize your groundless belief uncountered, possibly causing other parents to forego vaccinations out of misplaced and misguided (by you) concern for their own childrens' safety, and therefore needlssly expose them to deadly and debilitating infectious diseases.

That ain't gonna fucking happen. Not here. Not now.

I could not agree more- Maxc reminds me of the people who approach me in the store, with all my kids with me, who look at the girls and say "it was SO BRAVE of you to have more kids with the damaged ones you have already" and "how you could think of getting these precious babies SHOTS?"

420 coloradobuff  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:02:58pm

My sister-in-law refused to have her three kids vaccinated over the years. I'm hoping they never get any of the bugs they could have been protected against, especially if any of those illnesses are like chicken pox, with the effects becoming more severe in older patients. I never did agree with her doing that, as our four kids have all had their shots.

421 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:03:00pm
422 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:03:35pm

re: #364 kansas

And an imbalance in your chi.

Or possibly liver qi stagnation. I'd see a shen balancer, stat!

423 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:03:35pm

re: #407 JohnnyReb

We do not have to go back too far in time. Look at the infant mortality rate in 1940 and 1950. Scary and real because I could have been a stastic in the 1950s.

AND look how many died of scarlet fever? I lost so many in my family bck in the day. . .

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:04:22pm

re: #91 Phocid

I live in a community on the California coast which is populated by a high proportion of ex-hippies, all lefties and lib-labs, who we refer to as the Nice People. Some are quite middle class and respectable with pricy homes overlooking the Pacific. I have had two women friends die of breast cancer while undergoing quack "natural" treatments. Every third person around here is a "healer" and of course the paranoia is that doctors just want to keep you sick, poison you and cut you for their own profit and the profit of the drug companies, and naturally they think that doctors are suppressing the "real" cures for diseases. California is as nutty as they say, with apologies to the actual reasonable people who live here.

I know people exactly like that, but I also have had a mother tell me that she wasn't having her child being vaccinated, and if I was smart I'd do the same. She then explained how depending on vaccinations was a direct result of the liberal control of the media. Once people have this idea, I think it's readily adaptable to previously existing beliefs.

425 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:04:42pm

Politely suggest that all the screamers on this thread take some time out to go heat up a nice warm cup of herbal tea with valerian, and chill the hell out.

Thire: #408 Salamantis

s is LGF, not the Huffington Post.

426 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:04:45pm

re: #413 NY Nana

Sad. I feel so badly, but this article, on California, and the rising rate of autism, from the Scientific American, is quite an eye-opener.

I still maintain that thimeserol is not related to causing autism, and that one day soon, it will be proven.

Don't get me wrong, I agree. My wife also thinks they're crazy.

427 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:05:14pm

re: #425 Irish Rose

Damn, I hate when that happens.

428 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:05:19pm

mumps in teenagers has serious repercussions. it can cause sterility in boys.
and imagine if polio makes a come back. it is deadly.
a killer virus.
smallpox was wiped out because it was vaccinated off the face of the earth.
what would these parents do if their child was bitten by a rabid animal?
forego the treatment?
this is getting silly. it is inviting a return to a very miserable time in society.

children who are not given the necessary vaccines should not be allowed in school.
what happened to the public health dept's job of protecting society.

429 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:05:31pm

re: #410 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks.

430 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:05:53pm

re: #355 reine.de.tout

Earlier today, I was talking with somebody about how my mom would let us play with the mercury when a thermometer broke. She would sit with us and would make sure we knew not to eat it, but we played with the mercury every time we had a thermometer break.

And I'm OK.
I think.

We used to shine up nickels by rubbing mercury on them. Once they were shined, we'd stick them in our pockets.

431 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:05:57pm

re: #425 Irish Rose

If it was half time .. I'd suggest a nice fruit cup to ease the current tensions.

I'm sure little old lady wont mind

=======================> help yourself.

432 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:06:03pm
433 ladycatnip  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:06:07pm

When my kids were in school they couldn't be registered w/o that vaccination card. No card, no school. What's changed? If schools are now letting the non-vaccinated into the classroom, we're going to have a re-occurrence of some pretty nasty diseases.

434 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:06:21pm

re: #415 UberInfidel67

Well, I am not Jewish but I snipped my son. And I will pressure my son and daughter to do the same to any children they may have.

It is funny- one of my friends had all her boys done, after she found out that she would have to care for um, er things, until he was old enough, and found out she would have to, um, er you know have contact with that part of his body, she said no way, and had them all done at birth. . .

435 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:15pm

re: #422 opilio

Or possibly liver qi stagnation. I'd see a shen balancer, stat!

Hopefully you are joking. I was.

436 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:16pm

Folks, as a member of the military I was ordered to received the smallpox vaccine. I dutifully did (took me two times and 20 sticks with the forked needle to give it to me but I endured). The vaccine never took. In other words, I never got the nasty blister/pustule on my arm. I suffered no ill effects.

My friend, on the other hand, got an infection of the lining of his heart and to this day has problems. The vaccine may have caused it or may not have, they aren't sure. Vaccines affect people differently and I'm guessing that there is quite possibly a 1 in a million or billion shot that a vaccine causes detrimental effects. I'm personally willing to live with that risk but then again, I wasn't affected.

The level of discourse on this thread is heading dangerously close to the gutter. I think if we all agreed to disagree on some of these issues because they are so emotionally charged, we may leave the room as friends. Let's save the vitriol for something worth it.

437 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:20pm

re: #103 Tarkus289

I have also eaten lead paint, as a child, removed asbestos with and without a mask, as an adult, and various other dangerous things, I will probably die in a freak cotton ball accident.

Hear about the guy in Japan who they have now verified survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Man's ninety-three. Whooeee, those folks who say Japanese food is good for you are not kidding around.

438 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:33pm

re: #425 Irish Rose

Politely suggest that all the screamers on this thread take some time out to go heat up a nice warm cup of herbal tea with valerian, and chill the hell out.

Thi

s is LGF, not the Huffington Post.

Umm, yeah, that would work about as well as cold peace. . .I would question why you left Max out. . .takes 2 to tango, and Max belongs in your post calling Sal out

Just saying. . .

439 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:48pm

re: #434 DisturbedEma

It is funny- one of my friends had all her boys done, after she found out that she would have to care for um, er things, until he was old enough, and found out she would have to, um, er you know have contact with that part of his body, she said no way, and had them all done at birth. . .


I'm sorry but that's messed up. haha. The flesh of your flesh, and you're embarrased to touch them even to clean them? that's creepy.

440 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:52pm

re: #355 reine.de.tout

Earlier today, I was talking with somebody about how my mom would let us play with the mercury when a thermometer broke. She would sit with us and would make sure we knew not to eat it, but we played with the mercury every time we had a thermometer break.

And I'm OK.
I think.

I think people will react to the toxicity of anything differently, depending on their genetics, the time of day, and their general health. I too played with mercury, rubbed it on dimes, tasted it. All in a time where it was a novelty. No ill effects as far as I can tell.

441 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:56pm

re: #433 ladycatnip

When my kids were in school they couldn't be registered w/o that vaccination card. No card, no school. What's changed? If schools are now letting the non-vaccinated into the classroom, we're going to have a re-occurrence of some pretty nasty diseases.

It's called herd immunity. If enough kids are vaccinated, the disease can't spread. The problem is that in some areas, Ashland and Eugene Oregon being two of them, herd immunity is being lost.

442 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:08:04pm

re: #147 snowcrash

On the TV show "House", one of the first episodes... a pretty young thing with her child, he asks "Has the child had her shots"

She says, "No, I don't believe in immunizations. They are just there to harm the babies and support industry.

He says, "Not immunizing your child helps other industries."

She says, "Like who?"

He says, "The people who make teeny tiny baby coffins."

443 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:08:13pm

re: #386 Racer X

I read A Slobbering Love Affair: The True (And Pathetic) Story of the Torrid Romance Between Barack Obama and the Mainstream Media. Thanks for the tip. I enjoyed Bias, and this one is every bit as good.

444 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:08:42pm

All I know is that when I went to school .. out of my classes of 30 people there was usually one who was suffering something that was bad or uncureable.

I went to my sisters childs first days of school. There is no-one who is in that situation in her classes. Not one. And there are 1600 kids attending in her year level.

445 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:08:59pm

re: #432 Iron Fist

Sounds like Cambodia.

It's a really great book and you are right. There are parallels to the year zero.

446 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:09:00pm

re: #437 SanFranciscoZionist

Hear about the guy in Japan who they have now verified survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Man's ninety-three. Whooeee, those folks who say Japanese food is good for you are not kidding around.

That guy should take all his money and play one number in Vegas. And I want in on that number!

447 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:09:21pm

Forgot my freakin' power cord at the office. I'm guessing I won't be on the internets in a bit.

448 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:09:30pm

re: #428 nyc redneck

mumps in teenagers has serious repercussions. it can cause sterility in boys.
and imagine if polio makes a come back. it is deadly.
a killer virus.
smallpox was wiped out because it was vaccinated off the face of the earth.
what would these parents do if their child was bitten by a rabid animal?
forego the treatment?
this is getting silly. it is inviting a return to a very miserable time in society.

children who are not given the necessary vaccines should not be allowed in school.
what happened to the public health dept's job of protecting society.


My ol' man was electrocuted (not killed, just burnt up bad by 40,000 volts) at age 23 while mom was about to give birth to their 1st, The docs told him he probably wouldn't be able to have any more kids. Then they had #2 and then me and later #4. Then dad got the mumps and lost a testicle. It just shriveled up to the size of pea. Docs told him he wouldn't be able to have any more kids. They had 3 more after that. I guess you can't keep a good man down, but sometimes he seemed to go around rather half-cocked . . .

449 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:09:38pm

The nonsense that costs lives:

Youtube Video
450 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:09:40pm

re: #443 J.D.

Thanks!

I suggest it to all my friends who voted for "change" and are now just a bit disappointed. They were hoodwinked by the media.

451 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:09:41pm

re: #442 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

On the TV show "House", one of the first episodes... a pretty young thing with her child, he asks "Has the child had her shots"

She says, "No, I don't believe in immunizations. They are just there to harm the babies and support industry.

He says, "Not immunizing your child helps other industries."

She says, "Like who?"

He says, "The people who make teeny tiny baby coffins."


i have to remember that one.

452 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:10:13pm

re: #406 LudwigVanQuixote

Believe it or don't, the Jewish community has specially trained guys called mohels to perform the circumcisions. Jewish doctors, unless they are already moonlighting as mohels have nothing to gain financially from increased circumcisions.

Yeah, but the "conspiracy" is to circumcise all the other kids to put the "Mark of the Jew" on them or something. And to make money, because that's what Jews do, right?

I never claimed it made any sense.

453 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:10:28pm
454 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:10:47pm

re: #436 Jetpilot1101

To Charles's original point: a very high percentage of California parents aren't having their kids vaccinated because of a hoax. That's very serious business, and life-threatening to children. If there are Lizards that have been fooled by the hoax, it's high time to straighten them out.

455 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:10:49pm

oh, i don't know why half of that post came up twice.
sorry.

456 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:10:55pm

re: #447 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Forgot my freakin' power cord at the office. I'm guessing I won't be on the internets in a bit.

Just have Algore blow in the power hole. That should keep it going......or burn it out.

457 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:10:58pm

Charles, how about a jazz thread?re: #438 DisturbedEma

Umm, yeah, that would work about as well as cold peace. . .I would question why you left Max out. . .takes 2 to tango, and Max belongs in your post calling Sal out

Just saying. . .

I didn't "call Sal out", it was a typo. Was going to make a comment about his comment, and didn't realize that my previous comment hadn't posted yet because I have the auto box checked. I ended up with a hybrid.

458 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:11:04pm

re: #433 ladycatnip

When my kids were in school they couldn't be registered w/o that vaccination card. No card, no school. What's changed? If schools are now letting the non-vaccinated into the classroom, we're going to have a re-occurrence of some pretty nasty diseases.


Whooping cough

Measles

459 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:11:05pm

re: #452 NukeAtomrod

Yeah, but the "conspiracy" is to circumcise all the other kids to put the "Mark of the Jew" on them or something. And to make money, because that's what Jews do, right?

I never claimed it made any sense.

Isn't there something about drawing their blood to make matzoball soup for the sabbath as well?

460 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:11:31pm

This phenomenon is just more elitism at the expense of everyone else.

It is selfishness, really. And for what? A false mental comfort, that's what.

BBL

461 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:11:56pm

re: #380 hazzyday

Now I have never thought about it much. But I was on my deathbed at age 7 from measles that developed into pneumonia. Oxygen tent, my parents couldn't chain smoke around me, and painful shots in the ass twice a day. A vaccination could have probably saved me a lot of pain. The ice cream didn't even taste good. I still remember not wanting the shots and yelling about it until a nice nurse talked me into them.

That's just it. I had the mumps, measles, and other what was then known as "childhood diseases" and lived through all of them with no ill effect. What's with all the caution now? Are children just weaker?

462 monkeytime  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:12:01pm

This is such a sad subject. I feel very bad for the parents of these special children and I will not doubt what they know about their children (as far as when they changed behaviour - your know your kids.) Working in medicine, I have seen alot. Some of it doesn't add up or make sense but there are few absolutes in medicine. I do think people should vaccinate their children. My son was behind on his vaccines due to constant illness and then got the measels and had to be hospitalized and was very ill. You would think that working in medicine, in a hospital, I would be up on my vaccines but I let my DPT go (I just didn't realize it had been 10 years) and I came down with Pertussis last year - thats Whopping Cough. It was BAD. It turned into pneumonia and it took MONTHS to get rid of the choking cough that sucks the very air out of your lungs until you vomit. Everyone please make sure your DPT shots are up to date. Whopping Cough is making a come back and it is serious.

463 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:12:23pm

As the stepfather of young man who is obsessive-compulsive and borderline autistic I have come to believe that he is too intelligent to want to have anything to do with a world that has gone mad.

464 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:12:28pm

re: #461 Soona'

That's just it. I had the mumps, measles, and other what was then known as "childhood diseases" and lived through all of them with no ill effect. What's with all the caution now? Are children just weaker?

No, I think you were just one of the lucky ones.

465 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:12:39pm

Frankly- I feel sorry for all children these days. What a fucked up world.

466 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:13:02pm

"Gozer the Carpathian" just dinged me. Gozer? Are you a "nimble little minx?"

What a cool nic!

467 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:13:19pm

re: #457 Irish Rose

Charles, how about a jazz thread?


I didn't "call Sal out", it was a typo. Was going to make a comment about his comment, and didn't realize that my previous comment hadn't posted yet because I have the auto box checked. I ended up with a hybrid.


my bad. . .I was backing Sal in the fight. . .sorry :( I was just trying to show casuality for Sal's outburst. . .

468 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:13:28pm

re: #459 so.cal.swede

Isn't there something about drawing their blood to make matzoball soup for the sabbath as well?

Just the Ashkenazim.
/ducking

469 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:13:36pm

re: #440 hazzyday

I think people will react to the toxicity of anything differently, depending on their genetics, the time of day, and their general health. I too played with mercury, rubbed it on dimes, tasted it. All in a time where it was a novelty. No ill effects as far as I can tell.

Now, I want to clarify here that I was not advocating that people today go out and allow their kids to play with mercury, or any other substance that we know today to be dangerous, regardless of the amount.

I was simply responding to somebody upthread who said it takes a LOT of this stuff to be toxic. That's true, and I would also think that different people respond at different levels of exposure.

470 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:13:41pm

re: #350 NukeAtomrod

Circumcision is just cosmetic surgery with very minor health benefits and some religious overtones. The RN I mentioned earlier also claimed that the doctors were motivated by greed to perform the procedure. She didn't actually say Jewish doctors, but I suspect that it was implied.

My brothers were circumsised. Orginally my parents weren't going to do it but they ended up having to because of urinary problems. It's one of those things that has both reasonable things for and against the procedure.

471 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:13:52pm

Inexcusable arrogance on the part of these parents. I, myself, had the big four..measles, mumps, chicken pox and German measles. I was five or six when I had the mumps and I still remember how painful it was. I had a dandy measles infection and spent a week in a dark room wearing my mom's sunglasses so my eyesight would not be damaged. Diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus are all killers. I was a little girl in the 50's when polio was a thing of nightmares. Remember iron lungs? My mom had me and my siblings in the doctor's office the day the first vaccine became available. A point of pride with her to this very day.

472 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:13:59pm

re: #467 DisturbedEma

my bad. . .I was backing Sal in the fight. . .sorry :( I was just trying to show casuality for Sal's outburst. . .

MYOB

473 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:14:04pm

re: #454 quickjustice

To Charles's original point: a very high percentage of California parents aren't having their kids vaccinated because of a hoax. That's very serious business, and life-threatening to children. If there are Lizards that have been fooled by the hoax, it's high time to straighten them out.

Excellent point and I do agree that if folks are being duped by a hoax, we should try and set them straight. As per my first post on this thread, sometimes that desire can be an exercise in futility. My point was geared towards the downward spiral of the dialogue on the thread. I read LGF almost everyday and the vast majority of us are good e-friends. When I see the F-bombs flying between lizards who ordinarily compliment each other, I'm a little disheartened.

474 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:14:44pm

re: #472 albusteve

I can speak for myself, thanks.

475 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:14:45pm

G'night. I'm going home with a warm feeling that I was circumsized as an infant.

476 Momzilla  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:14:53pm

re: #58 itellu3times

That would be your smallpox vaccination, which I don't believe ever had any mercury preservative, nor was it likely painful.

Itched like a mug, though. Usually if the scar is huge it means you scratched it and spread it.

477 lostlakehiker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:15:21pm

Repeat after me: correlation is not causation.

Shots are generally given at thus and so an age. Autism generally becomes noticeable at thus and so an age. Many parents will be particularly alert for symptoms right after the shots are given. To them, it will seem a straight case of cause and effect. The scientists must be pulling a massive coverup. They've seen it with their own eyes.

Autism is on the rise. In the days before vaccination, it was less common. More "proof". But first, diagnosis has improved, and standards for diagnosis have become more liberal. And second, the fraction of children born to older parents has risen, and the older you are, the more chance a stray cosmic ray has to whack a germ cell.

Both Left and Right have every incentive to squirt ink when science gets in their way, as it will, because politics accepts lies while science by its nature cannot keep a lie up. Scientists may lie, but there's always another scientist out there willing to call attention to a mistake, (if they're polite), or call the liar out (if they're not polite.)

The combination of attacks from left and right has left us with a public that distrusts science and is halfway ready to give credence to almost any kind of nonsense.

And children sicken and die. You squids out there, are you proud now?

478 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:15:30pm

Go to an old graveyard and you will see how many never made it past childhood.

It is amazing how small a world these refusers to immunize really inhabit.

479 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:15:31pm

I do believe that there may be rare allergies to some components of vaccines. Perhaps that's what Maximus's child suffered and others who have had the vaccine followed immediately by strange symptoms. But again, the focus on vaccine = autism isn't really focusing on other, seemingly benign, elements of the vaccine that could cause the freak allergic reaction.

The 'shot troofer' (love the term) movement is keeping good research from being performed and ultimately harming kids.

480 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:15:43pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

Frankly- I feel sorry for all children these days. What a fucked up world.

Wow.

I disagree. The world is a wonderful place! The internet brings the world to your fingertips. Modern medicine has in fact reduced many illness' and damage from trauma. Right here, right now, is the best life has ever been. Yeah there are some aspects that way screwed up, but the positives outweigh the negative.

Don't get me started on Cable and HDTV.

481 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:15:43pm

re: #305 Gozer the Carpathian

Yeah I've heard about that. Wierd. I have a daughter so no worries there but if I get a son next I plan to have him circumcised. Better as a baby then a man. :)

My sister refused circumcism for both of her sons. They are both over 20 now, both circumcised.

One word...YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOUCH!

482 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:15:46pm

Calipari taking Kentucky job

[Link: sports.espn.go.com...]

Any Wildcat fans here?

483 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:15:48pm

re: #418 nyc redneck

the only way we got rid of small pox was vaccinating it the hell off the earth.

Unfortunately it still exists, just not out in the wild. In 50 years, the pool of immunized people will be just about gone. I wonder if the remaining smallpox stockpiles will still be around then.

484 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:16:10pm

re: #148 Buster Bunny

Well without the zionist influence of Starbucks in Israel, who will make decent coffee?

Ok .. having been at Starbucks .. i'll have to find way of saying that without using the word DECENT.

Hell, I don't know. Israelis have roots in Yemen... Turkey... Vienna... Iraq... Ethiopia... who will teach them to make coffee?

485 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:16:11pm

re: #473 Jetpilot1101

Excellent point and I do agree that if folks are being duped by a hoax, we should try and set them straight. As per my first post on this thread, sometimes that desire can be an exercise in futility. My point was geared towards the downward spiral of the dialogue on the thread. I read LGF almost everyday and the vast majority of us are good e-friends. When I see the F-bombs flying between lizards who ordinarily compliment each other, I'm a little disheartened.

Oh yeah. well eF you then..........


Sorry, I couldn't resist..........and I couldn't agree more.
:)

486 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:16:15pm

re: #440 hazzyday

I think people will react to the toxicity of anything differently, depending on their genetics, the time of day, and their general health. I too played with mercury, rubbed it on dimes, tasted it. All in a time where it was a novelty. No ill effects as far as I can tell.

except for your immunity to dear leader's charm. . .:)

487 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:16:20pm

re: #481 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My sister refused circumcism for both of her sons. They are both over 20 now, both circumcised.

One word...YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOUCH!

thus my warm feeling . . .
really good night now.

488 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:16:28pm
489 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:16:30pm
490 Buster Bunny  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:16:51pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

Frankly- I feel sorry for all children these days. What a fucked up world.

I'm not sorry. I think we live in the most enlightened society ever in history. We have the capabilities to travel to the moon .. and other planets in the near future. We have the mechanisms in place to feed the worlds population. We have the ability to choose our country of choice .. to travel there in motorised vehicles. We have more recreation technology than we know what to do with. We have readily available information channels that can be accessed instantaneously at low cost and almost no expense.

The world has never been this good before, and thanks to certain current avenues of thought, probably wont be again.

491 Soona'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:17:33pm

I'm outta here. Play nice everyone.

492 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:17:43pm

re: #472 albusteve

MYOB

Um, this IS my business. . .kids without shot by my kids IS my business. . .

But thanks for the advice. . .

493 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:17:54pm

At this point in time, we do not know the factors (either causal or correlative) related to autism. Again, we do not know. And, there are very complex interactions between genes and environment (many times extremely difficult to separate). The medical research community is working on this problem, and probably, some time in the future we'll have a much better/informed understanding of the causes and correlations...(in the meantime, surely, but unfortunately, there may be those parents who will convince themselves that Factor X is implicated...and insist on the existence of a spurious correlation...this happens all the time...) I think for the benefit of public health, school administrators should insist on having children vaccinated...(to my knowlege, those vaccinations using mercury are no more -- no longer in use; it's been phased out.)

494 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:17:54pm

I've heard Dr. Paul Offit speak. He's terrific. He's fighting to defend vaccination for children. His life has been threatened for this. He's an expert on vaccination, and has written several books on the topic, including the history of vaccination, and vaccine pioneers.

495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:17:58pm

re: #482 Nevergiveup

How could he turn that down?

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:18:14pm

re: #156 opnion

Question, when I was a kid, children with "Hair Lips " were common.
Who knows what causes that & why is it less frequent today?

I think they can fix it now.

497 midwestgak  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:18:15pm

re: #461 Soona'

That's just it. I had the mumps, measles, and other what was then known as "childhood diseases" and lived through all of them with no ill effect. What's with all the caution now? Are children just weaker?

No answer to your question, but I too had the measles, chicken pox and mumps and lived. I remember the chicken pox because they itched and my mother repeatedly told me not to scratch. I remember the mumps because my mother caught it from me. She was in her early forties. She survived too. (poor thing. her sweet face was so swollen).

498 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:18:16pm

re: #480 Racer X

Well, my friend, you'll have to forgive me for I have fallen into despair as of late.

499 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:18:26pm

re: #482 Nevergiveup

Calipari taking Kentucky job

[Link: sports.espn.go.com...]

Any Wildcat fans here?

mmm.I was just offered the richest contract of all time for a basketball coach..should i take it? mmm Should i stay?
I guess he took it..LOL

500 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:19:00pm

re: #434 DisturbedEma My nephew didn't receive a very good circumcision. Maybe we should have called a moyel? But seriously, he is a very chubby little boy who was always "digging" at his private parts. I had no problem with my own boy, but did know if the foreskin is in tact, it takes special cleaning. I had to teach this boy, when he was about 8 years old, the "method" to cleaning himself. It really pissed me off because his mother (my niece) and his grandmother (my sister) never took the time to teach this boy.

501 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:19:03pm

This anti-vaccination hysteria is gonna cause outbreaks of diseases in my children's lifetimes that were all but eradicated in my lifetime.

For pete's sake: There's "more autism" now because screening, detection, etc., have become better, maybe even a little "too sensitive". In my day, the autistic kids were sorta thought of as being kinda weird, but that was about the extent of it.

Me, I've got a whole passle of nephews who've got the condition; I had a great-uncle who was "kind of quiet and a little funny", and guess what? I remind all my living relatives who knew the man of him; it's a condition with a genetic pre-disposition, not caused by vaccinations.

With care and love, and a lot of luck, most cases of "autism spectrum disorders" - as vague and useless a term as any, and really, while maybe useful for classification, brings logical order to the whole thing, it automatically lumps in people, like me, touched slightly with it, in the classical Aspberger's Syndrome way, with others, like my one poor nephew, who is incapable of communication beyond screams, and who must be watched for his safety and the safety of those around him - in any event, with care, love, and luck, these children are able to grow up to live happy and productive lives.

502 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:19:05pm

re: #481 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My sister refused circumcism for both of her sons. They are both over 20 now, both circumcised.

One word...YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOUCH!

I do not understand the anti-circ people. The men (particularly gay men) who have been snipped, and go around for the rest of their lives thinking they are missing out on some tickle.

503 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:19:36pm
504 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:19:41pm

re: #481 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My sister refused circumcism for both of her sons. They are both over 20 now, both circumcised.

One word...YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOUCH!


My SIL works in geriatrics- and many of her male patients end getting this done. . .because of infections and such, but that is also because they cannot take care of , um, er, things. . .you know. . .

she says she feels very bad for them- they are embarrassed and in pain

505 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:19:49pm

re: #419 DisturbedEma

I could not agree more- Maxc reminds me of the people who approach me in the store, with all my kids with me, who look at the girls and say "it was SO BRAVE of you to have more kids with the damaged ones you have already" and "how you could think of getting these precious babies SHOTS?"

Autism has different effects on families. My one relative reached deep within himself and became a better parent and person after many many difficult years of financial and emotional drain. going along with an unthinking and ignorant school system and medical professionals. And within the family one parent of the relative disassociated himself from the child. It's a learning experience and the child is a wonderful person today. Needs some help in people situations, but is an exceptional personality.

Anger and grief can occur easily in these families. Even though Jennie McCarthy in on the anti-vaccine bandwagon, I would recommend her book for an example of her focus.

506 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:19:59pm

OT: I'm on a community switchboard call for a Kansas Representative Todd Tiahrt, he's running against Jerry Moran for Sam Brownback's seat in the primary. I'm in the question queue with evolution education, but I doubt he'll find time to get to me seeing his strong SoCon record.

507 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:20:12pm

re: #491 Soona'

I'm outta here. Play nice everyone.

Bye:)

508 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:20:14pm
509 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:20:16pm

re: #495 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How could he turn that down?

Lotta pressure in Kentucky. Win ( and that means at least final 4 ) or else.

510 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:20:17pm

re: #496 SanFranciscoZionist

I think they can fix it now.

I think the term is "Hare lips" and refers to cleft palate. It can be repaired by surgery.

511 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:20:40pm

re: #490 Buster Bunny

I'm not sorry. I think we live in the most enlightened society ever in history. We have the capabilities to travel to the moon .. and other planets in the near future. We have the mechanisms in place to feed the worlds population. We have the ability to choose our country of choice .. to travel there in motorised vehicles. We have more recreation technology than we know what to do with. We have readily available information channels that can be accessed instantaneously at low cost and almost no expense.

The world has never been this good before, and thanks to certain current avenues of thought, probably wont be again.

moon and interplanetary travel is out of the question for almost every single child on the planet...good grief...recreation tech is very expensive and intercontinental travel can be dangerous as well...information does not always result in an enhanced lifestyle...I give you a B for optimism tho

512 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:21:20pm

re: #471 Bobblehead

My mom had me and my siblings in the doctor's office the day the first vaccine became available. A point of pride with her to this very day.


Same here!

My pediatrician (and also my children's pediatrician) always said you wouldn't ask whether or not your children should have these vaccinations if you had ever seen a child with these diseases (Diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus).
I never had mumps, but I made up for it with the chicken pox. I had them in my eyes...everywhere! Neither of my kids ever came down with it although both were exposed numerous times. I always wondered whether I passed on some sort of immunity.

513 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:21:22pm

re: #498 Sharmuta

Well, my friend, you'll have to forgive me for I have fallen into despair as of late.

Please do not despair. Life is good. Always. It beats the alternative. Pay more attention to the good things in life. Get out more. We have it so much better than many others.

514 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:21:57pm

re: #498 Sharmuta

Well, my friend, you'll have to forgive me for I have fallen into despair as of late.

Change comes slowly. Most thoughts are seeds. Beer.

515 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:22:00pm

it is heartbreaking what some misguided elitist fcking idiots do to their children
in the name of helping them. i read abt. a woman who was forcing horse size pills down the throat of her 4yr. old after 9-11 to purge him of "toxins."
he choked to death and died.
she should have been prosecuted for murder.
she was not.
she was left w/ her stupidity and the thoughts of what she had done to her son.

516 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:22:09pm

re: #178 mikalm

I'm too familiar with the mentality:

Western medicine = bad, bad, bad
Anything exotic or "organic" = automatically good, and not subject to critical examination

"Peyote is natural! The Indians use it!"

(Not dissing the traditional religious use of peyote here, just had to deal with a few too many college kids.)

517 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:22:49pm

re: #489 taxfreekiller

I've always remembered that run through the air-guns. My buddies and I could never remember how many shots we actually got, but it was about 4 more than they stamped on our Medical record sheets.

Mulder and Scully might have some answers...

518 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:22:53pm

I realize that some of you have a problem with Max, but I don't like to see the parent of a sick child bullied on this forum for any reason.

Agree to disagree if you must, but keep it civil fer chrissakes.

519 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:23:13pm

re: #482 Nevergiveup

Calipari taking Kentucky job

[Link: sports.espn.go.com...]

Any Wildcat fans here?

He decided not to sleep on it.
Smart move on his part. I hope he does well and brings the program back to the level it was when Pitino was there.

520 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:23:41pm

During his speech, Offit told how his wife, a pediatrician, had a child into her office for his shots. She put the little boy on the examining table, and turned around to prepare the injection. When she turned back with the needle, the child was seizing. Offit said, "She was able to stabilize the child, but also thought how fortunate she was that she had not yet given the injection. The parents would have blamed the injection for the seizure for sure."

521 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:23:43pm

re: #516 SanFranciscoZionist

"Peyote is natural! The Indians use it!"

(Not dissing the traditional religious use of peyote here, just had to deal with a few too many college kids.)

tell them peyote use is not medicinal...it's use is spiritual in nature

522 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:23:48pm

re: #512 J.D.

Same here!

My pediatrician (and also my children's pediatrician) always said you wouldn't ask whether or not your children should have these vaccinations if you had ever seen a child with these diseases (Diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus).
I never had mumps, but I made up for it with the chicken pox. I had them in my eyes...everywhere! Neither of my kids ever came down with it although both were exposed numerous times. I always wondered whether I passed on some sort of immunity.

My kids all got chicken pox after vaccination. They had from 1 (my daughter, I say she had chicken pock) to about 12. I was like you--I couldn't eat, not even ice cream. I would do it again.

523 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:23:59pm

The MMR vaccine wasn't available when I was a child; I contracted all three. The German Measles were particularly horrendous; they laid me up for 3 weeks, nearly killed me, and induced a partial deafness in my right ear that endures to this very day. And considering how many children died from it, I was one of the lucky ones.

When I was in 8th grade, I accidentally missed the day that they were vaccinating kids for tuberculosis at my school. I raised hell and wouldn't back down, even when I was threatened with discipline. So they made an exception, and gave me my vaccination a day later.

It turns out that my father had been exposed to the disease, and could have passed it on to me. I dodged a major bullet due to my stubborn intransigence.

524 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:00pm

re: #310 so.cal.swede

y'all sound like barbra boxer (or was it nancy pelosi?) talking about how you can't make any decisions about the Iraq war because you don't have children.

swede -

PUH - LEEZE - If you want to talk about a High Line Female Politician talking about "TWFOTre: #319 so.cal.swede

I think penile infections was a minor concern in the "ancient world" compared to, say, death by sword, death by rapings, death by bear, death by gum disease, death by plague, death by common cold.

Swede -

In "the Day" - Life was RED in Tooth and Claw - Short and Brutal all around.
Hopefully we have advanced somewhat.

-S-

525 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:01pm

re: #505 hazzyday

Autism has different effects on families. My one relative reached deep within himself and became a better parent and person after many many difficult years of financial and emotional drain. going along with an unthinking and ignorant school system and medical professionals. And within the family one parent of the relative disassociated himself from the child. It's a learning experience and the child is a wonderful person today. Needs some help in people situations, but is an exceptional personality.

Anger and grief can occur easily in these families. Even though Jennie McCarthy in on the anti-vaccine bandwagon, I would recommend her book for an example of her focus.

Yeah, what would I know about anger and grief. . .//

Sorry, but when we found out about our kids, we did not "go to pieces" and we did not "soul search" or "grieve for the futures we wanted" or any of the other comments.

We do not consider ourselves "strong" and we are not all that "brave"- we got information, we got help, my boys, before they went into the service, were awesome with their sibs.

Oh, wait, I did do something after the kids were dxed- I swore not to wallow in it, and to make sure they lived full lives and expected them to thrive, and did not let them be their dxes. . .

my bad, many think I should just blame the shots and sue the drug companies. . .which I will not do

526 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:04pm

re: #463 USBeast

As the stepfather of young man who is obsessive-compulsive and borderline autistic I have come to believe that he is too intelligent to want to have anything to do with a world that has gone mad.

My son, I think much the same of him.

527 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:23pm

re: #250 Maximu§

I Have a degree in engineering! You who have NEVER raised a child is telling me I don't know my own kid and what made him sick?

Your looking dumber by the minute....

You've said plenty that you should be ashamed of here, you should leave this thread now if you haven't already, and seriously considering apologizing.

I am raising a child and also have an Engineering degree, and I tell you that if you think the MMR vaccine gave your child autism, you don't know what made your child sick.

528 mspfacs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:29pm

this is what happens when people with no education medical or scientific pontificate. If anyone understands what gliosos and brain inflamation do eg alzheimers,als,parkinsons,you would understand that the neuro excitotory adjuvants act like glutamine and cause the problemb. These compounds are in vaccines and probably cause the problemb not hg. IF ANYONE EITHER DOES NOT BELIEVE this,and I have nothing to persomally gain and am indeed educated and informed double ivy and doctorate, go to DrBlaylocks site review the literature,peer reviwed,worldwide,and experimental before wasting blog space.Normally the people here are inteligent and well informed thats why i come here but this is false and inappropriate

529 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:31pm

re: #328 jantjepietje

If you have no confidence in the drug industry getting rid of the disease organisms why bother? Lesser of two evils hardly applies here I'd say.

I didn't say zero, and I didn't say conspiracy. More an underplaying of the real risks.

530 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:40pm

re: #520 quickjustice

During his speech, Offit told how his wife, a pediatrician, had a child into her office for his shots. She put the little boy on the examining table, and turned around to prepare the injection. When she turned back with the needle, the child was seizing. Offit said, "She was able to stabilize the child, but also thought how fortunate she was that she had not yet given the injection. The parents would have blamed the injection for the seizure for sure."

Post hoc ergo propter hoc I think.

531 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:24:43pm

Pat Condell's latest gives ex roach-smoker Anjem Choudary a well deserved monstering:

Youtube Video
532 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:25:13pm

re: #200 transient

Starbucks failed in Israel. Israel has its own quality coffee culture, probably from European Jewish roots. Something tells me McCafe isn't going to do too well.

Jews from the Arab world brought theirs as well. Israel basically got immigrants from everywhere on God's earth that they make good coffee.

533 seekeroftruth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:25:17pm

Late to the topic - I remember this fear of MMR goes back quite a few years. It is not a new hoax. This article supplies a little information going back to 1998 from a "study" in England that started this hoax:

A connection between the MMR vaccine and autism was first claimed in 1998, in a controversial study led by British scientist Andrew Wakefield. Numerous flaws—including a small sample (12 children), no control group, and unresolved reverse causality (the vaccine is given around the same age that autism is generally diagnosed)—led 10 of the study’s 12 authors to recant in 2004, saying “no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient.”

My personal experience has been mostly very liberal parents refuse the vaccinations for their children, but I see that this hoax affects parents across the spectrum.

534 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:25:21pm

re: #513 Racer X

Please do not despair. Life is good. Always. It beats the alternative. Pay more attention to the good things in life. Get out more. We have it so much better than many others.

I would add that fighting the good fight can reap good things too. . .

535 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:25:57pm

re: #523 Salamantis

Dang it, that's right it was the tuberculosis test that had the little pointy stamp.

536 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:26:06pm

re: #498 Sharmuta

We Hold On, Sharm. Yes, it's a Rush song from Snakes and Arrows. You amy get a lift from it.

537 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:26:19pm

re: #518 Irish Rose

I realize that some of you have a problem with Max, but I don't like to see the parent of a sick child bullied on this forum for any reason.

Agree to disagree if you must, but keep it civil fer chrissakes.

I did not bully him. I stated a fact, and he bullied me. I will not be bullied by him or anyone else to discuss my private life, and I already feel guilty for discussing more of my sister's private life than I should have. I feel badly for his child, but he had no right to tell me to STFU because I stated the facts as the medical community has presented thus far.

538 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:26:22pm

re: #534 DisturbedEma

I would add that fighting the good fight can reap good things too. . .

It's the noblest exercise and greatest sport there is, according to old Rough & Ready Teddy Roosevelt.

539 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:26:32pm

As I suspected my question didn't come up, the call is ending now.

540 Noam Sayin'  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:26:38pm

re: #531 Jimmah

I open and read, "Islamist Dickhead."

You just know when they're going to be good.

541 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:26:49pm

re: #108 Tarkus289

It was fun, wasn't it?

Fascinating and fun stuff. Just knowing something like that existed raised my IQ by several points (maybe more). I didn't however eat it, or heat it and sniff the vapors, but that is because it raised my IQ high enough.

542 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:04pm

re: #501 Guanxi88
I ALWAYS enjoy your contribution to a discussion. Hellot there and nice to see you : )

543 Roses  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:13pm

This has been around for many, many, many years. I don't think World Net Daily has much to do with it as much as our former hippie days (and being conservative doesn't mean you completely leave your free-wheeling past behind - common misconception).

THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM, though. In my daughter's 4th grade class of 15, there were 3 who were not vaccinated. One of them came down with WHOOPING COUGH. His Mom did not take him to the Doctor. The other two came down with Whooping Cough, a horrible, horrible thing. All of the kids in the class were given antibiotics just in case. My daughter's friend, one of the 3, at one point told her Mom, "Please, Mom, can you just breathe for me." It still chokes me up to think of it.

One of the 3 wasn't vaccinated because they had had a sever reaction to the first set of vaccinations, and the Doctor recommended they not be given the follow up shots. The others were children of "conscientious objectors."

We learned alot about Whooping Cough that year. It isn't gone, by any means.

Not getting your kids vaccinated puts everyone else's kids at risk.

544 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:17pm

re: #518 Irish Rose

I realize that some of you have a problem with Max, but I don't like to see the parent of a sick child bullied on this forum for any reason.

Agree to disagree if you must, but keep it civil fer chrissakes.

That would be far easier if Max himself had kept it civil in the first place.

545 Timbre  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:18pm

re: #536 Timbre

Or you may get a lift from it.

546 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:23pm

re: #219 displaced yankee

Guys usually got the smallpox in the arm. It was not uncommon for girls to get it in the thigh so as to avoid "disfigurement". Well, that was back in the 40's and 50's.

I once read a fencing manual from the fifties that recommended ladies wear a padded jacket, because bruises look so dreadful in evening dress.

This was back when I went around in tank tops in forty degree weather so everyone could see the cool welt from saber practice.

547 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:31pm

re: #350 NukeAtomrod

Circumcision is just cosmetic surgery with very minor health benefits and some religious overtones. The RN I mentioned earlier also claimed that the doctors were motivated by greed to perform the procedure. She didn't actually say Jewish doctors, but I suspect that it was implied.

Um, actually, it looks like circumcision reduces the spread of AIDS, which is why men in Africa are actually lining up to get circumcised. I was really nervous about getting my son circumcized after he was born and had read a lot of articles about risks and benefits. My OB/GYN came in and talked to me, and said that he and the pediatrician I'd chosen would do it together if I so chose...

The thing that tipped the scale was the fact that uncirc'd infant boys have higher rates of urinary tract infections, and with uncirc'd baby boys, they catheterize them to get a clean urine sample. urg.

548 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:46pm

re: #526 Guanxi88

My son, I think much the same of him.

mine too- the one most severe- sweet, unhurried, says what is on his mind- farts and burps with gusto. . .a really awesome kid

549 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:48pm

This fox tastes like chicken.....

Youtube Video
550 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:27:53pm

re: #506 Thanos

OT: I'm on a community switchboard call for a Kansas Representative Todd Tiahrt, he's running against Jerry Moran for Sam Brownback's seat in the primary. I'm in the question queue with evolution education, but I doubt he'll find time to get to me seeing his strong SoCon record.

Is that you been calling me? Stop it.

551 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:00pm

re: #542 UberInfidel67

I ALWAYS enjoy your contribution to a discussion. Hellot there and nice to see you : )

What better place for the hyper-verbal and the socially stunted than LGF?

552 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:03pm

re: #477 lostlakehiker

Association is not always causation. I would like to see an epidemiology study on autism. I think it's an industrial disease. Something in the modern world that causes it. Great minds just need to dream the theory out into the open.

553 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:11pm

re: #505 hazzyday

McCarthy has done a lot of harm with her book, including death threats to doctors. I understand that she may not intend harm, and that her pain is real, but what she has done in placing false blame is evil.

554 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:11pm

re: #535 itellu3times

Dang it, that's right it was the tuberculosis test that had the little pointy stamp.

I always came up positive on that.

555 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:14pm

re: #478 Ojoe

Go to an old graveyard and you will see how many never made it past childhood.

It is amazing how small a world these refusers to immunize really inhabit.


when i put flowers on my grampa's grave i wander around the cemetery
and see the names of so many children who died so young.
there tomb stones are usually so small.

556 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:15pm

re: #523 Salamantis

My obstetrician gave me a flu shot in my 8th month of pregnancy with my daughter and I came down with the flu and (unrelated, I feel certain) German measles. That was a long time ago. Fortunately, everything worked out fine for both of us.

557 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:26pm

re: #538 Guanxi88

It's the noblest exercise and greatest sport there is, according to old Rough & Ready Teddy Roosevelt.

one of my favorites. . .quite a man

558 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:40pm

re: #531 Jimmah

Thanks for posting that. I'm glad to see Pat making more videos these days. he slowed down there for a while.

559 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:28:58pm

re: #223 so.cal.swede

My wife is a school psychologist, so i see/hear this pretty up close. The bad thing about Autism is that it is rarely the only thing ailing the person. It's almost always a mixed bag of different problems. So, not only is it hard to to pin down, diagnoses are interfered with other issues as well, such as learning disabilities, aspergers, tourette's, etc, etc.

Aspergers is itself a form of autism, no? Can the two coexist?

(I have to admit, as a teacher, I love Aspergers students. They are my favorites. ADHD is exhausting. Aspergers kids can FOCUS.)
////

560 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:07pm

Holy Sh*t! I just heard shots fired and squealing tires in my neighborhood.

561 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:08pm

re: #442 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here's the full quote from "House". I knew there was a bunch more.

[examining a baby who's Mother isn't vaccinating him because she feels it's a scam; House takes the child's stuffed frog] All natural, no dyes. That's a good business - all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend on research and development. And the worst that a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green, fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for six months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop *really* fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

"And that's all I have to say about that."
-Forest Gump

562 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:10pm

Gotta go - Boss and the Shareholders (wife & kids) want me home for dinner.

563 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:29pm

Charles,
Please, pretty please with sugar on top, for the love of science, give us a creationism thread so we can all be friends again.
v/r
JP1101

564 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:31pm

re: #554 Jimash

I always came up positive on that.

so does my sil- from her job in a nursing home. . .she has to get x rays. . .hey did any of you x ray your feet for shoes? I heard that used to be normal!

565 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:39pm

By the way -- another story of rational thought. My BiL and his wife are uber hippies. Borderline troofers. Both of their sons have autism. The eldest has Aspergers. They knew he had it when the second one was born. They had him immunized anyway. Why? My SiL is a chemist and develops formulas for vitamin and herbal supplements. She did the research and preferred to protect her child.

It's not all on the right and it's not all on the left. Why can't we all just get along?

566 Tarkus289  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:43pm

re: #560 USBeast

Stay away from the windows.....

567 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:46pm

re: #528 mspfacs

You're ranting, double ivy and all.

568 Defector01  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:48pm

Nice to see the drones up and running - more liberal desires. Get kids really sick with the diseases that were basically eliminated years ago and use it to take more liberty "for the children". Besides the liberal won't be happy until he destroys every single accomplishment of the past century plus.

569 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:29:56pm

re: #560 USBeast

Holy Sh*t! I just heard shots fired and squealing tires in my neighborhood.

oh my! stay safe!

570 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:30:08pm

re: #531 Jimmah

I love this guy!

571 Randall Gross  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:30:12pm

re: #550 kansas

Is that you been calling me? Stop it.

No, it's a robo dialer that hooks you up with a town hall meeting. Most of the angst on the call was against Obama, and the economy. There was a tea party caller who sounded a bit loopy, Tiarht politely cut him off before he went off the deep end.

572 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:30:28pm

Anyone who didn't believe 'conservatives' were also taken in by this nonsense -- just read this thread.

573 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:30:39pm

First question asked when my wife developed Guillain-Barre syndrome. Have you had a flu shot? Known complication of that vaccine I guess.

574 Defector01  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:31:03pm

Will the MMR vaccine go the way of DDT and be eliminated with no freakin proof and then cause millions of death?

575 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:31:11pm

re: #568 Defector01

It's not just liberals!

576 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:31:29pm

re: #518 Irish Rose

I don't like to see ANYONE here bullied,particuarly the parent of a damaged child.Grief comes in many guises, not everyone is able to find comfort in cold science when such a family tragedy occurs.

577 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:31:53pm

re: #572 Charles

Anyone who didn't believe 'conservatives' were also taken in by this nonsense -- just read this thread.

On a different note Charles, are you feeling better tonight?
I heard that you were down with the gunk.

578 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:31:53pm

re: #483 opilio

Unfortunately it still exists, just not out in the wild. In 50 years, the pool of immunized people will be just about gone. I wonder if the remaining smallpox stockpiles will still be around then.

Somebody will probably put it on an endangered species list.

579 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:31:55pm

re: #528 mspfacs

Paragraphs, Capitalization. Put that PhD to work.

580 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:31:58pm

re: #568 Defector01

It's the same thing the libs want to visit on the developing nations that are still struggling with otherwise long-eradicated diseases....

Good to see they want to bring that here.

581 June_July  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:32:13pm

re: #360 zombie

I'm pretty sure it wasn't that one (Canticle), although I see the similarity. It was short story, not a whole novel, and I vaguely recall something about the pendulum swinging (referring to the swing of public opinion from blind faith in science to hatred of science).

Obviously the idea is not a unique one. A number of Sci-Fi stories have used this theme, but it's hard to imagine this kind of thinking seriously taking hold in the US. Still, the signs are there...

582 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:32:16pm

re: #522 EmmmieG

My kids all got chicken pox after vaccination. They had from 1 (my daughter, I say she had chicken pock) to about 12. I was like you--I couldn't eat, not even ice cream. I would do it again.

My kids didn't have the vaccination until they were grown since it wasn't available when they were "kids". I sent them and paid for it as insurance wouldn't. I need to get the shingles vaccination, myself. I certainly don't want that stuff!

583 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:32:27pm

re: #574 Defector01

Will the MMR vaccine go the way of DDT and be eliminated with no freakin proof and then cause millions of death?

Possible since the Congress might be involved and give their "opinion".

584 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:32:27pm

re: #566 Tarkus289

Stay away from the windows.....

Hell, I went outside to see if I could ID the perps. Stayed behind the trees, though...

585 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:32:47pm

re: #518 Irish Rose

I realize that some of you have a problem with Max, but I don't like to see the parent of a sick child bullied on this forum for any reason.

Agree to disagree if you must, but keep it civil fer chrissakes.

Had Max had remained civil, the discourse might have remained civil. Once he lashed out, the gloves came off.

586 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:32:56pm

Well, guys. I'll be lonely without you tonight. My power cord is at the office and my batter is going to quit at any minu

587 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:33:14pm

re: #502 Alouette

I do not understand the anti-circ people. The men (particularly gay men) who have been snipped, and go around for the rest of their lives thinking they are missing out on some tickle.

My son was born in the early 80's. The anti-circ thing was just getting geared up. I didn't think twice about it. I read the literature and decided it was the correct thing to do. However, the day I checked out of the hospital with my new bundle of joy, the nurses handed over an extra long and extra wide length of elastic bandage along with the complimentary diapers, lotion, shampoo, etc. "What's this for?" asked the new mom. "Oh, that's the bandage the doctor used to wrap and secure your baby when he did the circumcision." I remember taking a couple of extra breaths and hugging said bundle just a little tighter. I think I still have that thing in box somewhere.

588 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:33:22pm

re: #540 Noam Sayin'

I open and read, "Islamist Dickhead."

You just know when they're going to be good.

I think this is what they call a rewind situation....LOL

589 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:33:24pm

re: #577 Irish Rose

On a different note Charles, are you feeling better tonight?
I heard that you were down with the gunk.

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

590 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:33:32pm

re: #527 CyanSnowHawk

You've said plenty that you should be ashamed of here, you should leave this thread now if you haven't already, and seriously considering apologizing.

I am raising a child and also have an Engineering degree, and I tell you that if you think the MMR vaccine gave your child autism, you don't know what made your child sick.

Isn't the world full of coincidences? I too have a degree in engineering, Bsc Mechanical, but it never occurred to me that I might be qualified to contradict those who have a degree in medicine. Silly me, I've missed out on so much.

591 bkgodfrey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:34:12pm

Charles,
Thank you for posting this! I'm a public health graduate student and we in the field of public health & epidemiology have been working for more than a year now to head off this absurd development. Unfortunately it is not just with MMR vaccines. Some parents in Europe are withholding polio vaccinations from their children leading to the dangerous possibility of the loss of what we call "herd immunity".

"Herd immunity" refers to when a certain percentage of a population is vaccinated against a particular disease/pathogen. This percentage of course varies depending on the disease at hand. However, as more and more parents in areas of Europe withhold vaccinations for something like polio, we risk facing a very dangerous & very damaging outbreak.

The main thrust of this anti-vaccine movement came from a study published all the way back in 1998 in the British medical journal, The Lancet. What makes this so disturbing is, The Lancet published these findings based on a study that had a sample size of 38. This is a comically small number in order to base such findings on. I have more about this study at my blog, Yellow Limes. Here is the link to that posting:

[Link: yellowlimes.blogspot.com...]

The Lancet is also the same medical journal that published a story using poor data concerning the civilian death toll in Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom. The background on that story can be found here:

[Link: yellowlimes.blogspot.com...]

Thank you again for your continued promotion of sound science and your speaking out against the pseudo-science that is running rampant in all areas of science, medicine, and elsewhere.

Sincerely,
Kyle Godfrey
Savannah, GA

592 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:34:20pm

re: #296 mikalm

I once saw some literature from "anti-circ" folks showing photos of botched circumcisions. Man, did I wince when I saw them!

When I took a midwifery class, I ended up reporting on circumcision issues to the class. Raised Jewish, I had no idea of the equipment they used in hospitals. Ech.

None of my non-Jewish friends are having their sons circumcized, but I tell 'em, if they do for any reason, get a moyl.

593 Racer X  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:34:20pm

re: #589 Charles

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

Racist!

594 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:34:41pm

a lot of moslems aren't having their children vaccinated against dangerous childhood diseases.
it is interested that totally uneducated backward barbarians have the same beliefs abt. childhood care as many educated intellectual people in modern society.

595 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:34:53pm

re: #271 buzzsawmonkey

Let me point out that if vaccines "caused autism," we would not be seeing the supposed explosion of autism that we are allegedly experiencing. The vaccines have been around for a long time; the "explosion" is recent.

I would, however, like to express my condolences to those whose children experienced medical problems at a young age, since I have some direct experience of the traumas that the tragedy of serious childhood illness can cause.

The difference and possible cause of the explosion is this:
In 1980 a child had up to the age and starting at 2 months DTP (Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis), OPV(Oral Polio). At four months this was repeated. At 6 months, DTP was given again.At 15 months MMR ( Measles Mumps and Rubella) was given.
At 18 months DTP, OPV, was given again. Then at 48months DTP and OPV again.
That's a total of 22 vaccinations for separate diseases multiple times.

Today's schedule is a total of 50 shots for separate diseases multiple times, up to the age of 6 and they start shortly after birth.
Changed is the administering of OPV to IPV, and added to the schedule is Hepatitis A and B, Rotavirus, Influenza, Hib ( meningitis), Varicella ( chickenpox) , an additional booster of MMR, and PCV (pneumococcal conjugate vaccine), This count does not include ...HPV, which is currently in the testing phase on boys.

596 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:34:59pm
597 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:35:01pm

re: #543 Roses

My daughters first and second round of DPT made her sick as hell. When the third one rolled around, we left out the P. I had to get a note from the doctor to give to the damn school.

598 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:35:19pm

re: #589 Charles

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

"Black cat"! Racist!
/

599 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:35:28pm

re: #589 Charles

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

I have it on good authority you were playing Black Cat by Beck and suddenly you were stricken from on high with sickness...
/you should have never taken the shot dude...

600 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:35:39pm

re: #543 Roses

The one that really concerns me is the smallpox vaccine that they stopped giving. My daughter got it (barely), but my son didn't. There was a study done on how easily that could be introduced into the population and how quickly it would spread. Scary!

601 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:35:42pm

re: #589 Charles

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

Oh, golly.
I have two black cats, and a double run of bad luck lately.
Must be the black cats, as you say, plus perhaps a little of that mercury poisoning my mom exposed me to what I was a kid.
Hell.

602 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:35:48pm

re: #589 Charles

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

Whiskey, honey, lemon.

603 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:03pm

re: #314 DisturbedEma

My JEWISH BOYS will keep the covenant. . thank you

Mine too, should I have any...

604 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:08pm

re: #589 Charles

ooooh....another spurious correlation!

/now hyperventilating...

605 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:12pm

re: #518 Irish Rose

I realize that some of you have a problem with Max, but I don't like to see the parent of a sick child bullied on this forum for any reason.

Agree to disagree if you must, but keep it civil fer chrissakes.

Yes, I will try- but it is hard not to feel bullied for HAVING your kids get the shots reading his posts. . .

Even knowing that 3 of my kids would have this. . .if I could go back and do it all over. . .I would not change a thing. . .

Just saying. . .

606 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:18pm

re: #551 Guanxi88
On this thread, you raise a very good point. lol

607 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:24pm

The vaccines are statistically proven to be a useful intervention against wild type diseases. All interventions carry some risk, but this is worth it.
I am a pediatrician.

When I entered practice, I took over some older Autistic patients, in their late teens, from a retiring physician. These folks were diagnosed long before the vaccines that we use today were invented.

BTW, if you think that "spreading out the vaccines' has any effect on the situation, you don't understand the amount of antigen your child is exposed to daily, on a day without vaccines.

Also, the vaccines have incubation periods; MMR has three different ones; none which causes a response in the first few days (10 to 20 days is more like it.) So reports of immediate reactions, with immediate deficits, may be reports of other antigens (like wild type viruses) causing the problem.

608 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:30pm

re: #584 USBeast

Any luck?

609 Bloodnok  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:43pm

re: #589 Charles

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

Let me get my dowsing rods. I can find the source of your imbalanced bodily humours.

610 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:44pm

their.
not there.

611 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:36:58pm

re: #602 Irish Rose

Whiskey, honey, lemon.

And peppermint.

612 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:37:07pm

re: #315 vagabond trader

Why do so many people quote wiki? Don't you know that anyone can inject their own pet theories and revisions into the narrative? Jeesh.

One of my students told me that her eighth grade teacher had the class modifiy Wikipedia pages to say stupid things, just to demonstrate to them why they should not use it as a research source.

613 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:37:10pm

re: #523 Salamantis

The MMR vaccine wasn't available when I was a child; I contracted all three. The German Measles were particularly horrendous; they laid me up for 3 weeks, nearly killed me, and induced a partial deafness in my right ear that endures to this very day. And considering how many children died from it, I was one of the lucky ones.

When I was in 8th grade, I accidentally missed the day that they were vaccinating kids for tuberculosis at my school. I raised hell and wouldn't back down, even when I was threatened with discipline. So they made an exception, and gave me my vaccination a day later.

It turns out that my father had been exposed to the disease, and could have passed it on to me. I dodged a major bullet due to my stubborn intransigence.

Hmmm. German Measles = Rubella, and is usually mild. The "bad measles" is usually Rubeola. Rubella can cause miscarriages or terrible birth defects, as I recall.

My uncle had rubeola as an 18 month old, and got encephalitis with accompanying 106 degree fevers that they couldn't break. He is profoundly mentally retarded because of it. Back in 1943 there was no vaccine, so his tragedy wasn't preventable. I don't know how a parent could live with him/herself if their child got rubeola and was damaged for life like my uncle when the MMR is available.

614 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:37:34pm

re: #573 kansas

First question asked when my wife developed Guillain-Barre syndrome. Have you had a flu shot? Known complication of that vaccine I guess.

Did she have a $30,000+ concoction specially made for her? My lawyer had it and got his bill...They charged him a thousand bucks or so. When he called the insurance company, they told him what the charge had been for that treatment. He's better. How's your wife?

615 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:38:25pm

re: #608 Lincolntf

Any luck?

Yes, luckily they took off in another direction and I was spared from doing anything heroic.

616 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:17pm

re: #613 funky chicken

Hmmm. German Measles = Rubella, and is usually mild. The "bad measles" is usually Rubeola. Rubella can cause miscarriages or terrible birth defects, as I recall.

My uncle had rubeola as an 18 month old, and got encephalitis with accompanying 106 degree fevers that they couldn't break. He is profoundly mentally retarded because of it. Back in 1943 there was no vaccine, so his tragedy wasn't preventable. I don't know how a parent could live with him/herself if their child got rubeola and was damaged for life like my uncle when the MMR is available.

Well, back then they called them the Big Red Measles; perhaps they were indeed rubeola rather than rubella.

617 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:18pm

re: #322 Nevergiveup

I must admit I always hide in another room but I do come out for the lox and whitefish.

At a bris, the women talk and eat and laugh, and the men drink and keep their hands over their crotches.

My father has already suggested that should he be blessed with a grandson, he and my husband will go out for a walk, and come back when the 'icky part' is over.

618 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:19pm

re: #611 Salamantis

And peppermint.

Garlic. Why is everyone forgetting garlic?

619 goddessoftheclassroom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:23pm

My EH is English, and in England circumcision is traditionally done for religious reasons. Our older son was born there, and our younger son was born here. We chose not to have him circumcised either. Funny enough, the hospital billed our insurance anyway because it was "routine." I called them to correct it, but I don't know if they ever did.

I had my children immunized because I figured that the chances of a complication from getting the disease was far greater than the chance of a complication from the shot. I even wanted the smallpox vaccine, but I couldn't get it for them.

620 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:33pm

re: #553 quickjustice

McCarthy has done a lot of harm with her book, including death threats to doctors. I understand that she may not intend harm, and that her pain is real, but what she has done in placing false blame is evil.

But many parents who come across this are stymied as what to do. And the subsequent stress makes life difficult for all. Hers was the first book that I saw that put a human touch on that life. The only other open outreaches I knew of were through Doug Flutie and Dan Marino.

All parents are going to look for the cause. It causes a lot of grief and finger pointing. Vaccines are just one of the areas people point at. Rightly or wrongly. Most all of these parents probably would love to have vaccines not as a possible cause. But the information that assures them is not there.

621 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:49pm

re: #552 hazzyday

Association is not always causation. I would like to see an epidemiology study on autism. I think it's an industrial disease. Something in the modern world that causes it. Great minds just need to dream the theory out into the open.

Honestly, I think autism has always been around. One fictional character who just exemplifies autism is Matthew in Anne of Green Gables--quiet, shy, very socially awkward farmer. In agrarian societies, the quiet/different folks just went about their business.

622 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:50pm
623 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:39:55pm

By the way, there's another bogus story making the rounds of the right-wing blogs this week, about Obama's nominee for State Department legal adviser, Harold Koh.

This guy is a liberal, definitely -- but the so-called 'anti-jihad' bloggers are also spreading a story that he thinks sharia law could apply to US courts, and this is ABSOLUTELY BOGUS and FALSE.

I'm getting so disgusted with those idiots who run with any anti-Muslim story without ever bothering to check whether it's true or not. I suspect they don't care whether these stories are true, and this is the very definition of bigotry.

624 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:40:32pm

I must protest here.

I was the one who was bullied!

I was told I had to shut up.

And it's illogical to give someone a pass for their hardships- then we could all get a pass, because we all have hardships.

I'm going to go make that cup of tea now.

625 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:40:49pm

For the record, all three of my kids had their full series of shots and both of my boys are circumcised.

And they still give me cards on Mothers' Day, can you believe that?

626 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:40:56pm

re: #617 SanFranciscoZionist

At a bris, the women talk and eat and laugh, and the men drink and keep their hands over their crotches.

My father has already suggested that should he be blessed with a grandson, he and my husband will go out for a walk, and come back when the 'icky part' is over.

Four boys, all circumcised by a doctor at the hospital. I make my husband go in, because I'm the one dealing with the vaseline and the gauze for the next two weeks.

627 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:41:16pm

Simple statistics.

I don't have the numbers handy but the risks of not having the vaccine are greater than having the vaccine.

It's akin the folks who don't wear a seat belt because they worry about being trapped and drowning or burning alive.

628 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:41:34pm

re: #617 SanFranciscoZionist

At a bris, the women talk and eat and laugh, and the men drink and keep their hands over their crotches.

My father has already suggested that should he be blessed with a grandson, he and my husband will go out for a walk, and come back when the 'icky part' is over.

I stayed near the door. . .my boys were given as much of the Mag or Man as they could safely handle- my oldest sucked the wine all out of his binky!

629 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:41:49pm
630 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:41:51pm

re: #623 Charles

Charles,
You are a voice of sanity in a crazy, crazy world. Thanks for all you do to keep us on the straight and narrow.

631 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:41:57pm

re: #589 Charles

Better, but still some gunk. I suspect it was that black cat that walked in front of me last week.

Combine an allergy to the cat and add a full moonre: #614 J.D.

Did she have a $30,000+ concoction specially made for her? My lawyer had it and got his bill...They charged him a thousand bucks or so. When he called the insurance company, they told him what the charge had been for that treatment. He's better. How's your wife?

She had immunoglobulin then plasma phoresis. From my observation the immunoglobulin stopped the progression of the syndrome. She was just beginning to have difficulty breathing. And the plasma phoresis turned it around. She was in critical care for 2 weeks in early 2006. When released she could not walk without a walker, but progressed over time till now she is mostly fine. We feel that her coordination and stamina are still affected, but it was awful to see her be unable to walk. It was a real kick when her patellar reflexes came back. Thanks for asking by the way.

632 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:01pm

re: #612 SanFranciscoZionist

I belong to a couple of history groups and the revisions some moonbats have slipped in are outrageous. Just another dumbing down tool.Funny about the kids, good for them.

633 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:11pm

re: #625 Irish Rose

For the record, all three of my kids had their full series of shots and both of my boys are circumcised.

And they still give me cards on Mothers' Day, can you believe that?

to use one of my favorite Charles headlines "SHOCKA!"

634 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:13pm

re: #629 buzzsawmonkey

True.

635 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:24pm

re: #623 Charles

By the way, there's another bogus story making the rounds of the right-wing blogs this week, about Obama's nominee for State Department legal adviser, Harold Koh.

This guy is a liberal, definitely -- but the so-called 'anti-jihad' bloggers are also spreading a story that he thinks sharia law could apply to US courts, and this is ABSOLUTELY BOGUS and FALSE.

I'm getting so disgusted with those idiots who run with any anti-Muslim story without ever bothering to check whether it's true or not. I suspect they don't care whether these stories are true, and this is the very definition of bigotry.

Anything for an "exclusive".

636 anchors_aweigh  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:34pm

My youngest son was diagnosed with autism at age 2. After many doctors I found this man. He saved my son and I will be forever indebted to him. I am oversimplifying, but Dr Goldberg's theory is that a virus causes reduced blood flow to the part of the brain that controls speech and emotion/socialism. I had lost hope that anyone could help me. At age 4 my son spoke his first word...Maria...his sisters name. Today he is completely normal. If you have an "autistic" child I urge you to contact Dr. Goldberg.

637 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:38pm

I started reading this thread at dinner on my treo and couldn't post. So I have had time to think about what to post.

My youngest (3 years) has Autism. She is very high on the spectrum, almost no use of language, although she does have her own language that we cannot understand.

Do I think this was caused by vaccines? Who knows. Would I vaccinate her today if given the choice knowing what I know? Of course.

Would I like to know what caused this? Of course. But we don't know the cause. At this point that isn't very important to me.

What else can be said.

I think in many ways that God decided that we are somehow special and able to deal with this and that is why we have this child.

You cannot understand how I as a parent of such a child feel.

What I think of is the world of the future and how she will be cared for when I am no longer able to be there.

I don't think this is too relevant to the subject matter of the post but I did want to make these points.

It is natural for parents to want to protect their children from any danger, and for parents to want to find an explanation for things they cannot control.

What else can I say.

638 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:44pm

re: #607 FightingBack

Do you know Paul Offit, doc?

639 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:42:59pm

When the Hepatitis B Vaccine was first released, surgeons nearly broke down my door to get vaccinated.

640 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:43:14pm

re: #352 rexfromars

Californians are idiots. That's all I've got to say.

At times we are, yes, but we are hardly the only state where this is happening.

641 vagabond trader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:43:27pm

re: #625 Irish Rose

Give that lady a, er, cigar, I think.

642 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:43:33pm

re: #616 Salamantis

Measles Overview

Measles is best known for causing a rash in childhood, but measles can affect other parts of the body and sometimes occurs in adults. Vaccination has significantly reduced the number of cases in the United States, although isolated outbreaks continue to occur.

There are two types of measles, each caused by a different virus. Although both produce a rash and fever, they are really different diseases:

The rubeola virus causes "red measles," also known as "hard measles" or just "measles." Although most people recover without problems, rubeola can lead to pneumonia or inflammation of the brain (encephalitis).


The rubella virus causes "German measles," also known as "three-day measles." This is usually a milder disease than red measles. However, this virus can cause significant birth defects if an infected pregnant woman passes the virus to her unborn child.


[Link: www.emedicinehealth.com...]

So basically, these parents are setting their kids up for potential deadly rubeola as kids, or setting up their daughters to give birth to terribly damaged kids if they get rubella when they are pregnant.

How nurturing. NOT

643 Jetpilot1101  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:43:53pm

re: #622 Iron Fist

Thank you for that bit of insight. I think Charles has done a phenomenal job with this blog and I appreciate all the banter back and forth. I don't come to LGF to hear an echo chamber but it definitely is nice to know that there are like minded folks out there. I love the fact that I am not alone even when it seems I am alone in my conservative views.

Aside from PlanetMoron, LGF is about the only blog I read on a daily basis.

644 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:44:06pm

re: #624 Sharmuta

I must protest here.

I was the one who was bullied!

I was told I had to shut up.

And it's illogical to give someone a pass for their hardships- then we could all get a pass, because we all have hardships.

I'm going to go make that cup of tea now.

Yes, and you were also dismissed as not having the right to an opinion about this issue. . .

Hope the tea helps!

645 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:44:26pm

re: #625 Irish Rose

For the record, all three of my kids had their full series of shots and both of my boys are circumcised.

And they still give me cards on Mothers' Day, can you believe that?

//My husband swears his outlook on life was damaged by the "pain of circumcision."

646 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:44:46pm

re: #636 anchors_aweigh

My youngest son was diagnosed with autism at age 2. After many doctors I found this man. He saved my son and I will be forever indebted to him. I am oversimplifying, but Dr Goldberg's theory is that a virus causes reduced blood flow to the part of the brain that controls speech and emotion/socialism. I had lost hope that anyone could help me. At age 4 my son spoke his first word...Maria...his sisters name. Today he is completely normal. If you have an "autistic" child I urge you to contact Dr. Goldberg.

Thanks, bookmarked friends in our church have two autistic sons.

647 ladycatnip  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:44:48pm

#458 Disturbed Emma

Whopping Cough

The East Bay Waldorf School reportedly has an unusually high number of children who are not vaccinated against the infection, health officials said.

The vaccine, which is not mandatory under state law, would have prevented most children at the school from contracting the disease, Dr. Wendel Brunner, the county's health services public health director, said.

Once thought to have been virtually wiped out in the United States, cases of whooping cough have been on the rise in California, in part because some people fear that the vaccine can cause seizures, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and autism.

Measles

Thanks for the links. This is insanity! We've worked hard here in the U.S. to eradicate horrific diseases, then pass laws wiping out mandatory immunizations? Makes no sense.

Because these vaccines weren't available when I was growing up, I had chicken pox and measles as a young child, then when I was 17 got the mumps. Will never ever forget how painful that was, which is one reason I didn't blink about vaccinating my own kids.

648 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:44:51pm

re: #629 buzzsawmonkey

There's certainly enough genuine reason to dislike Obama's actions and his nominees without having to make things up.


totally

649 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:00pm

re: #631 kansas
My lawyer never was quite that bad off. Wow! Thank goodness it helped her.

650 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:17pm

Please pardon my 631. I was considering joking with Charles then thought it wasn't funny. Forgot to delete it.

#614 J.D.

Did she have a $30,000+ concoction specially made for her? My lawyer had it and got his bill...They charged him a thousand bucks or so. When he called the insurance company, they told him what the charge had been for that treatment. He's better. How's your wife?

She had immunoglobulin then plasma phoresis. From my observation the immunoglobulin stopped the progression of the syndrome. She was just beginning to have difficulty breathing. And the plasma phoresis turned it around. She was in critical care for 2 weeks in early 2006. When released she could not walk without a walker, but progressed over time till now she is mostly fine. We feel that her coordination and stamina are still affected, but it was awful to see her be unable to walk. It was a real kick when her patellar reflexes came back. Thanks for asking by the way.

651 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:18pm

re: #595 Wilderstad

The difference and possible cause of the explosion is this:
In 1980 a child had up to the age and starting at 2 months DTP (Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis), OPV(Oral Polio). At four months this was repeated. At 6 months, DTP was given again.At 15 months MMR ( Measles Mumps and Rubella) was given.
At 18 months DTP, OPV, was given again. Then at 48months DTP and OPV again.
That's a total of 22 vaccinations for separate diseases multiple times.

Today's schedule is a total of 50 shots for separate diseases multiple times, up to the age of 6 and they start shortly after birth.
Changed is the administering of OPV to IPV, and added to the schedule is Hepatitis A and B, Rotavirus, Influenza, Hib ( meningitis), Varicella ( chickenpox) , an additional booster of MMR, and PCV (pneumococcal conjugate vaccine), This count does not include ...HPV, which is currently in the testing phase on boys.

Is this new scheudle good science or better economically? do kids need the chicken pox vaccination and the rotavirous one?

652 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:29pm

re: #625 Irish Rose

For the record, all three of my kids had their full series of shots and both of my boys are circumcised.

And they still give me cards on Mothers' Day, can you believe that?

Just for the record..I was born in a farm house outside of Fresno and given up for adaption...It was sometime during school and sports and taking showers together that the Hoopster could tell there was a issue with the way our ding dongs looked..Pissed me off...
And also for the record..You should see my Nirth Certificate...I dare somebody to call it fake! LOL

653 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:31pm
654 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:32pm

re: #365 father_of_10

Many years ago, the first time I drove into California (coming south out of Oregon on 99) I saw the sign that said: Welcome to California, Land of Fruit and Nuts. I added an "s" to fruit. Then a few miles later I saw Black Butte. I thought: Fruits, nuts, black butts. Yup, just like I thought.

On a turnoff onto a dirt road in Marin, there used to be a hand-lettered sign hanging on a farm gate that read "99 Cent Lattes".

THAT is California.

655 onyxraven1979  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:34pm

I see now that 9/11 Trooferism is dying down, we are bringing back some oldies but goodies. I personally prefer the chemtrail loons myself, but these guys are good for a quick laugh. Unfortunately,whereas most chemtrail wackos are not endangering the health of others, the anti vaccine crowd is and that is the real danger.

656 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:50pm

re: #622 Iron Fist


The only subject that we don't run into this is on gun control. On that issue LGF pretty much speaks with one voice. I can't recall even a single instance of someone trying to defend the unconstitutional "Assault Weapons" ban or taking DC's side in Heller.

That may be the only thing that we have such a harmonious accord on.


I was tempted to liven things up here, but I'm not good at trolling. I prefer live bait.

:)

657 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:45:57pm

re: #638 quickjustice

Do you know Paul Offit, doc?

Not personally, but I know his Rotavirus Vaccine. Rotavirus is the number one killer of infants in the the world, and the number one cause of hospitalization in the US (where we have facilities to save them.)

658 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:46:34pm

re: #432 Iron Fist

Sounds like Cambodia.

I know -- Walter Miller, the author of Canticle in 1960, predicted with terrifying precision exactly what was going to happen in Cambodia 15 years later.

659 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:46:42pm

re: #642 funky chicken

[Link: www.emedicinehealth.com...]

So basically, these parents are setting their kids up for potential deadly rubeola as kids, or setting up their daughters to give birth to terribly damaged kids if they get rubella when they are pregnant.

How nurturing. NOT

It must have been rubeola then. I still dimly remember days of feverish delerium, lying in bed as weak as a cat, unable to eat and barely able to drink.

It was horrific.

No parent should risk putting their kids through that when there is a readily available vaccine that prevents it.

660 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:46:47pm

re: #637 Harry Tuttle
You said that perfectly.

661 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:47:17pm

re: #570 LudwigVanQuixote

I love this guy!

Who wouldn't buy him a pint?

(Answer: these guys)

662 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:47:20pm

re: #378 so.cal.swede

I think the bigger concern is how your kid will fare with his peers, how much ever I'm a proponent for keeping your kids' penises intact (unless if it's for religious purposes), I wouldn't let my son have to go through gym classes as the "anteater". Although, these days it seems there's so little opportunities for communal nakedness even under those circumstances that it might not even matter.

Also, it's becoming so much less popular to do routine circs these days that I doubt any kid will be the only one.

663 goddessoftheclassroom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:47:23pm

On a lighter note...

When I was in elementary school. we all lined up in the multipurpose room for the German measles shot.

A few years later, I got German measles anyway. I was hyper-worried about spreading it to a pregnant lady, so I hibernated until I wasn't contagious.

THEN when I was pregnant for the first time, the doctor INSISTED on giving me a blood test to see if I had antibodies--and I am so sensitive to the idea of needles & blood tests, I passed out.

664 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:47:46pm

re: #645 Bobblehead

//My husband swears his outlook on life was damaged by the "pain of circumcision."

My oldest decided to become a Marine ;).

665 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:48:18pm

re: #624 Sharmuta

I must protest here.

I was the one who was bullied!

I was told I had to shut up.

And it's illogical to give someone a pass for their hardships- then we could all get a pass, because we all have hardships.

I'm going to go make that cup of tea now.

Who told you to shut up?

666 Neutral President  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:48:39pm

re: #61 Soona'

The very same thing can be said about "bi-polarism".

ADHD and Depression as well, IMO.

667 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:48:56pm

re: #665 MandyManners

Who told you to shut up?

The same person who told me to shut up - Max.

668 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:49:18pm

re: #645 Bobblehead

//My husband swears his outlook on life was damaged by the "pain of circumcision."

// But how do you feel about it?

669 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:49:41pm

re: #623 Charles

From what I've read, many fear a Koh appointment on the grounds of Koh's opinions which tend to favor International (UN) legal decisions, as opposed to basing his decisions solely on the U.S. constitution. From the articles I've read, it is also pretty clear that the Sharia claims were hearsay ("he said; she said").

670 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:49:51pm

re: #636 anchors_aweigh

My daughter is a pediatric OT who works with autistic children (as well as many other afflictions) and my son is going to be a pediatric neurosurgeon. I sent them both the link. Thanks. I'm so glad you had a positive outcome!

671 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:49:56pm

re: #415 UberInfidel67

Well, I am not Jewish but I snipped my son. And I will pressure my son and daughter to do the same to any children they may have.

Do you mind if I ask why? I plan to do it for religious reasons, but I don't think I would do it if I didn't have that motivation.

672 pingjockey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:49:56pm

re: #665 MandyManners

Somebody told Sharmuta to shut up? Where is my bat?

673 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:50:02pm
674 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:50:07pm

re: #647 ladycatnip

Is it weird to anyone that the risk of having to deal with developmental disorders is somehow more threatening to these parents than the risk of diseases that do kill people?

I am very sensitie to this issue- and I try to be open minded- but it just seems like this decision to NOT protect your kid screams the position "I cannot do THAT to my kid!"

Autism is not deadly- measles are. . .and you can blow it off as a virus or a flu. . .and by the time you realize it is not those things, your kid can be close to death. . scary!

675 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:50:17pm
676 pingjockey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:50:35pm

re: #667 Salamantis
Who's Max?

677 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:50:39pm

re: #607 FightingBack


BTW, if you think that "spreading out the vaccines' has any effect on the situation, you don't understand the amount of antigen your child is exposed to daily, on a day without vaccines.

The means of exposure is different. It's not directly injected into the tissues of living human being, but must bypass its natural defenses.

678 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:01pm

re: #420 coloradobuff

My sister-in-law refused to have her three kids vaccinated over the years. I'm hoping they never get any of the bugs they could have been protected against, especially if any of those illnesses are like chicken pox, with the effects becoming more severe in older patients. I never did agree with her doing that, as our four kids have all had their shots.

I had chicken pox for the first time at twenty-four. I do not recommend it.

679 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:16pm

re: #672 pingjockey

Somebody told Sharmuta to shut up? Where is my bat?

a small thing...she is very capable

680 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:17pm

re: #659 Salamantis

It must have been rubeola then. I still dimly remember days of feverish delerium, lying in bed as weak as a cat, unable to eat and barely able to drink.

It was horrific.

No parent should risk putting their kids through that when there is a readily available vaccine that prevents it.

My sis had one measle near her eye that caused her little face to swell up like a balloon. She was really sick. I remember the doctor coming to our house (remember house calls anyone?) and how scared I was.

681 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:23pm

re: #665 MandyManners

Check the Bottom Comments.

682 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:25pm

re: #437 SanFranciscoZionist

Hear about the guy in Japan who they have now verified survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Man's ninety-three. Whooeee, those folks who say Japanese food is good for you are not kidding around.

Got a link for that!

683 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:40pm

re: #669 J.S.

From what I've read, many fear a Koh appointment on the grounds of Koh's opinions which tend to favor International (UN) legal decisions, as opposed to basing his decisions solely on the U.S. constitution. From the articles I've read, it is also pretty clear that the Sharia claims were hearsay ("he said; she said").

Just take a quick look at the morons who call themselves 'anti-jihad' bloggers. Every one of them is hyperventilating about the sharia claims.

684 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:48pm

re: #647 ladycatnip

#458 Disturbed Emma

Thanks for the links. This is insanity! We've worked hard here in the U.S. to eradicate horrific diseases, then pass laws wiping out mandatory immunizations? Makes no sense.

Because these vaccines weren't available when I was growing up, I had chicken pox and measles as a young child, then when I was 17 got the mumps. Will never ever forget how painful that was, which is one reason I didn't blink about vaccinating my own kids.

I think we have had such bounty in our lives, we take for granted the gift of our good health (and the health of our kids) as well as all the "stuff" of our lives.

My parents were children before vaccinations were available, and can recall the fear and suffering that outbreaks of these diseases caused.

So we were all vaccinated, and of course, these things quit breaking out!
And people began to take for granted and assume as normal that life could be lived relatively disease-free.

I think a lot of these anti-vaccine folks need to be reminded sometime to stop and think about what we have and how we got to this point.

My daughter had chicken pox because that vaccine wasn't available when she was an infant - and that was the most miserable I ever saw her. If I can ensure her health through any vaccine that becomes available, I will do it.

685 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:51:49pm

re: #676 pingjockey

Who's Max?

Maximu§

686 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:52:07pm

re: #673 taxfreekiller

Did you at least try "HopenChange"?
Better than even chance that you would have been in.

687 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:52:15pm

re: #624 Sharmuta

I must protest here.

I was the one who was bullied!

I was told I had to shut up.

And it's illogical to give someone a pass for their hardships- then we could all get a pass, because we all have hardships.

I'm going to go make that cup of tea now.

Totally agreed, Sharm.

688 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:52:19pm

re: #675 Iron Fist

One thing is certain, once it is gone, it won't be coming back. Look at DDT. The deaths of millions of third-world children have been the price paid for getting rid of a proven misquito killer. All the bat boxes, purple martins, and everything else we try cannot make up for the loss of DDT.

What was her name? Sanger? She is as bloody a person in all of history, with death tolls that rival Hitler and Stalin. That it was a mistake, or that those deaths should have been taken into account when doing a risk/reward study on DDT doesn't really bring back the millions dead.

Rachel Carson.

689 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:52:19pm

re: #665 MandyManners

Who told you to shut up?

That would have been Maximus, here

690 pingjockey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:52:54pm

re: #679 albusteve
I know that. Had a really crappy day at work. Whacking something might help!

691 pingjockey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:26pm

BBL.....Dinner!

692 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:30pm

re: #660 J.D.

You said that perfectly.

I do appreciate you saying that.

693 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:43pm

re: #690 pingjockey

I know that. Had a really crappy day at work. Whacking something might help!

well then I volunteer...whack away!

694 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:46pm

re: #675 Iron Fist

One thing is certain, once it is gone, it won't be coming back. Look at DDT. The deaths of millions of third-world children have been the price paid for getting rid of a proven misquito killer. All the bat boxes, purple martins, and everything else we try cannot make up for the loss of DDT.

What was her name? Sanger? She is as bloody a person in all of history, with death tolls that rival Hitler and Stalin. That it was a mistake, or that those deaths should have been taken into account when doing a risk/reward study on DDT doesn't really bring back the millions dead.

Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring.

695 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:47pm

re: #671 SanFranciscoZionist

Do you mind if I ask why? I plan to do it for religious reasons, but I don't think I would do it if I didn't have that motivation.

I believe there are well established and proven health reasons for it as well. Perhaps that was the origin of the "tradition"?

696 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:53:48pm

re: #440 hazzyday

I think people will react to the toxicity of anything differently, depending on their genetics, the time of day, and their general health. I too played with mercury, rubbed it on dimes, tasted it. All in a time where it was a novelty. No ill effects as far as I can tell.

Didn't they used to have x-ray machines in shoe stores, to get kids' foot sizes? Seem to recall my mom telling me about playing with those in the fifties.

697 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:54:02pm

In my school district, parents come in with pre-printed letters from Attorneys to allow their children entry without vaccines, because of their "religious beliefs." The only school with a rational policy is our Catholic school, which does not permit such nonsense: Full vaccination, actual medical exemption, or no enrollment.

698 jorline  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:54:14pm

re: #523 Salamantis

The MMR vaccine wasn't available when I was a child; I contracted all three. The German Measles were particularly horrendous; they laid me up for 3 weeks, nearly killed me, and induced a partial deafness in my right ear that endures to this very day. And considering how many children died from it, I was one of the lucky ones.

When I was in 8th grade, I accidentally missed the day that they were vaccinating kids for tuberculosis at my school. I raised hell and wouldn't back down, even when I was threatened with discipline. So they made an exception, and gave me my vaccination a day later.

It turns out that my father had been exposed to the disease, and could have passed it on to me. I dodged a major bullet due to my stubborn intransigence.

Ding, Sal!

I was vaccinated for TB as a child. Six months ago I diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis and two months ago was due to start my long term treatment, Humira. Before starting Humira you have to take a TB test because of the dangers of contracting TB while taking any TNF Blockers. I tested positive and I'm currently on a nine month medication to kill the TB.
Good news is they let me start my R/A treatments three weeks ago.

Any one who doesn't believe in vaccinations or the dangers of TB should visit here....the numbers will scare the shit out of you.

Addressing the Threat of TB Drug-Resistance Worldwide

TB is a serious threat both in the United States and abroad. Globally, more than one-third of the world’s population is infected with the bacteria that cause TB, and each year approximately 9 million people become ill with the disease, and 2 million of those die. The ability of the disease to develop resistance to treatments and to travel easily across borders makes worldwide TB control efforts critical.

You learn to love science when you become dependent on their medical breakthroughs and medicines.

699 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:54:16pm

re: #681 Sharmuta

Check the Bottom Comments.

I just did. I'll do it again.

700 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:54:37pm

I notice that since I busted crazy Pamela Geller by checking the Google cache, she has now blocked her site from being cached by Google.

Wouldn't want to leave a trail, when you're spewing loony bullshit all day long.

701 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:55:17pm

re: #681 Sharmuta

Check the Bottom Comments.

He doesn't know what he's talking about, does he?

702 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:55:25pm

re: #693 albusteve

well then I volunteer...whack away!

I guess I should submit, as steve called me out to MYOB- right over the head. . .maybe it will take my mind off my back pain!

703 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:55:33pm

re: #701 MandyManners

No.

704 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:55:58pm

re: #700 Charles

I notice that since I busted crazy Pamela Geller by checking the Google cache, she has now blocked her site from being cached by Google.

Wouldn't want to leave a trail, when you're spewing loony bullshit all day long.

Loons hate being cached red handed!

705 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:55:58pm

re: #700 Charles

I notice that since I busted crazy Pamela Geller by checking the Google cache, she has now blocked her site from being cached by Google.

Wouldn't want to leave a trail, when you're spewing loony bullshit all day long.

do you have a wig and some of those nose glasses?...just wondering

706 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:08pm

re: #696 SanFranciscoZionist

Didn't they used to have x-ray machines in shoe stores, to get kids' foot sizes? Seem to recall my mom telling me about playing with those in the fifties.

mine too- now you have to suit up BIG TIME

707 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:15pm

re: #677 Wilderstad

Children carry germs into their mouths (like oral vaccines.)

708 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:16pm

re: #461 Soona'

That's just it. I had the mumps, measles, and other what was then known as "childhood diseases" and lived through all of them with no ill effect. What's with all the caution now? Are children just weaker?

No, but not everyone lived through the childhood diseases, and being the clever creatures that we are, we decided to stack the deck in our favor.

709 sleepyone  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:18pm

I've mentioned this before but it was quite a while ago.

I have two friends (raving moonbats to the nth degree) who did not get their now 7-year-old son vaccinated. They had to find a school in Brooklyn that would accept him because of this. My friends argued that "something" must be causing all the autism diagnoses and since drug companies were "evil" they shouldn't be excused. And the real kicker to the story is the wife of this couple works at Pfizer's offices in NYC. I'm sure they have their hand in some of these vaccines.

By the way, she bad mouths Pfizer every chance she gets even as they paid her tuition to attend The New School for Social Research to finish her degree and provided her with an iMac and a Blackberry. She also gets in free to most, if not all, museums in NYC simply by flashing her Pfizer name badge.

//Yeah, they sound like a real crappy company to work for...

710 NYCHardhat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:23pm

Help is on the way.//////

711 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:32pm

re: #676 pingjockey

Who's Max?


It's all good..I think..Max got really emotional because his child is sick and acted like any parent lashing out...
Sharm and Sal did very well pointing out facts...But pulled back and allowed Max to call down and log out...Kudos I'm sure there were a few tears and nerves touched by Max..It's that way with kids..
Sometimes it's better to understand than to be right..

712 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:42pm

re: #683 Charles

Oh dear...I don't go to those sites...(but I can just imagine...When Sharia law proposals came up for discussion in Canada, there were a zillion bloggers insisting that it would translate into having adultress women stoned to death, etc., -- that was extremely aggravating, since it was such a red herring -- that wasn't the issue at all...but try to explain that...)

713 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:56:48pm

There's been so much yelling and telling people to shut up around here that I am going to innoculate myself lest I be drawn into it:

LGoPs: "Shut the fuck up or else".........

LGoPs: "Oh yeah.....make me"

LGoPs: "Damn you, STFU"

LGoPs: "Fine. Harumph"

/

714 Gus  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:57:00pm

re: #674 DisturbedEma

Is it weird to anyone that the risk of having to deal with developmental disorders is somehow more threatening to these parents than the risk of diseases that do kill people?

I am very sensitive to this issue- and I try to be open minded- but it just seems like this decision to NOT protect your kid screams the position "I cannot do THAT to my kid!"

Autism is not deadly- measles are. . .and you can blow it off as a virus or a flu. . .and by the time you realize it is not those things, your kid can be close to death. . scary!

And it's an infectious disease. People that fail to immunize are subject to measles epidemic.

Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.

During 1988 through 1990, California experienced its worst measles epidemic in more than a decade, with 16,400 reported cases, 3,390 hospital admissions, and 75 deaths. More than half of the patients were younger than 5 years; the highest incidence was among infants younger than 12 months. The epidemic centered in low-income Hispanic communities in southern and central California. The major cause of the epidemic was low immunization levels among preschool-aged children and young adults. Rates of complications, admission to hospital, and death were surprisingly high. Outbreak control efforts met with indeterminate success. Problems with these efforts included insufficient funding early in the epidemic and disappointing public response to community-based immunization campaigns. The cost of medical care and outbreak control for the epidemic is conservatively estimated at $30.9 million. Unless the level of immunization in preschool-aged children is increased, this type of epidemic will probably recur.

715 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:57:05pm

re: #702 DisturbedEma

I guess I should submit, as steve called me out to MYOB- right over the head. . .maybe it will take my mind off my back pain!

it seemed like the thing to say at the time...no offense

716 opilio  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:57:35pm

re: #694 MandyManners

Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring.

Little known, but hardly surprising fact:

Rachel Carson was posthumously awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Jimmy Carter in 1980.

717 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:57:54pm

people who "feel" a certain thing abt. a subject but actually KNOW nothing abt it, should not be allowed to trump established science and medicine.

this is what run- amok p.c. thinking get's us.
giving the same credibility (or power to decide) to a backward barbarian or elitist
new ager, as would be given to a brilliant research scientist w/ a body of sound work who has done a mountain of good for so many people all around the world.

718 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:57:55pm

This is more of a complex issue that most people here understand, so I will keep it short and simple...
Thimerosal is still used in vaccines, but there are manufacturers that are making vaccines without it. At high exposure levels, mercury causes neurotoxicity in humans, especially in fetuses and small infants whose brains are still developing, so I would suggest that parents request their children be vaccinated with Thimerosal free vaccines, problem solved.
....BTW, I do actually know what I am talking about here, Graduate of the USC school of Pharmacy, PharmD.

719 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:58:07pm

re: #696 SanFranciscoZionist

Didn't they used to have x-ray machines in shoe stores, to get kids' foot sizes? Seem to recall my mom telling me about playing with those in the fifties.

Those were just sales gimmicks. You would stand up on the device and look down at your foot while the device radiated your whole body. It was like fluoroscopy.

720 JHW  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:58:19pm

Nothing new under the sun I guess.

Opposition to Compulsory Vaccination

In the 1840s, the first state-sponsored vaccination campaigns appeared in England and, later, in Germany. These campaigns, which came to be associated with reduced rates of smallpox, were passionately promoted as essential for public health. Nonetheless, anti–vaccination sentiments were strong and many pamphlets and books opposing vaccination were published.

When compulsory vaccination began in England began in 1853, critics argued that the safety of vaccination was in doubt and that mandatory vaccination laws were coercive and even violent. Though actual force was rarely used to make people comply, fines and other measures—such as barring school attendance for unvaccinated children—were used, causing great resentment.

Contagion

vaccines and Autism a critique of the Lancet article and the shenanigans of the doctor making the flawed study.

The Anti-Vaccination Movement in England, 1853-1907

It's pretty sad after millennia of human suffering where life "nasty, brutish and short" was practically the norm for everyone, where death was a constant companion of all, there are those that seemingly long for the "good old days".

721 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:58:42pm

re: #652 HoosierHoops
You did not say "ding dongs"? lol lol I love ya Hoops!

722 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:00:00pm

re: #715 albusteve

it seemed like the thing to say at the time...no offense

no worries- you were right. . .I was getting emotional too- for a different reason- I go to the meetings with other parents with autiusm- and some are VERY vocal on those of us who continue to get the shots. . .

you were right- I was being bratty.

723 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:00:19pm

re: #711 HoosierHoops

It's all good..I think..Max got really emotional because his child is sick and acted like any parent lashing out...
Sharm and Sal did very well pointing out facts...But pulled back and allowed Max to call down and log out...Kudos I'm sure there were a few tears and nerves touched by Max..It's that way with kids..
Sometimes it's better to understand than to be right..

Well said.

724 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:00:55pm

re: #707 FightingBack

Children carry germs into their mouths (like oral vaccines.)

Yes I'm aware of that. Yet the viruses must still jump through hoops to infect the individual and bypass defenses already in place for exactly that type of transmission.

725 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:01:04pm

re: #481 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My sister refused circumcism for both of her sons. They are both over 20 now, both circumcised.

One word...YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOUCH!

Worst circumcision story I've ever heard, straight from the owner of the penis in question:

He was raised totally nonpracticing by a Jewish mother who flitted from exotic new faith to exoticker new faith.

When he was thirteen or fourteen, she decided to become Orthodox. The whole kosher enchilada. And she decided she wanted him to have a bris.

Now, for a teenage boy, this is not good news, but he loved his mother, and he wanted her to be happy, so he went through with it.

About the point he was no longer in MUCH pain, he came come from school and found her looking glum and eating a Whopper. The Orthodox experience was over.

I would have killed her. He just kind of shrugged it off. "She's never been real stable," he said. "I hoped the Jewish thing might work out."

Good son, huh?

726 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:01:25pm

re: #718 grahamski

Where were you about 700 comments ago?

727 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:01:34pm

The parents who refuse vaccines in my office are usually unsure which disease is which. They are often outraged about vaccines that don't even exist. And they amuse me by refusing vaccines "with too many preservatives." I usually let them read the "preservative-free" labels.
And I have some frightening pictures of folks with the wild-type diseases that I show them.
Sorry if my respect for these folks isn't intact.

728 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:01:37pm

re: #723 Irish Rose

Well said.

I would add that as well. . .

729 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:02:02pm

re: #718 grahamski

This is more of a complex issue that most people here understand, so I will keep it short and simple...
Thimerosal is still used in vaccines, but there are manufacturers that are making vaccines without it. At high exposure levels, mercury causes neurotoxicity in humans, especially in fetuses and small infants whose brains are still developing, so I would suggest that parents request their children be vaccinated with Thimerosal free vaccines, problem solved.
....BTW, I do actually know what I am talking about here, Graduate of the USC school of Pharmacy, PharmD.

Be aware. Thimerosal is still in the flu vaccine which is now recommended yearly for the elderly and children.

730 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:02:13pm

re: #692 Harry Tuttle

I do appreciate you saying that.

I absolutely meant it.
Good luck to you and your family.

731 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:01pm

re: #502 Alouette

I do not understand the anti-circ people. The men (particularly gay men) who have been snipped, and go around for the rest of their lives thinking they are missing out on some tickle.

I have to say, none of the men I know who've been circumcised seem to feel that sex is not worth it...

/

732 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:01pm

re: #710 NYCHardhat

Help is on the way.//////

"As a rough guide, singles eligible for the credit might get between $10 to $15 per paycheck if paid weekly; for those married filing jointly, they're likely to see an extra $15 to $20."

Who's feeling stimulated?

733 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:14pm

If stating facts makes me a bully, then it's going to make fact checking around here just a bit more difficult.

734 snowcrash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:15pm

I am pretty sure Thimerosal was removed from vaccinations as a preservative in 1999 based on FDA recommendation.

735 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:18pm

re: #729 Wilderstad

Be aware. Thimerosal is still in the flu vaccine which is now recommended yearly for the elderly and children.

My kids have the asthma too- flu shots EVERY year. . .

736 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:41pm

re: #709 sleepyone

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. There is no reasoning with moonbats...

737 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:45pm

re: #671 SanFranciscoZionist
To be honest, and I may be wrong...I believe that is what my Catholic faith taught me. I admit I could be mistaken though. My reasons were wholey religious.

738 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:03:47pm

re: #712 J.S.

Oh dear...I don't go to those sites...(but I can just imagine...When Sharia law proposals came up for discussion in Canada, there were a zillion bloggers insisting that it would translate into having adultress women stoned to death, etc., -- that was extremely aggravating, since it was such a red herring -- that wasn't the issue at all...but try to explain that...)

Uh, J.S., adulterous women are stoned to death under Sharia law. Sharia law has no place on any sane planet.

739 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:03pm

In the UK, they had Diphtheria epidemics well into the late 40's, because of vaccine refusal. In the USA, we had great vaccine pioneers, like Dr. Abraham Jacobi, whose policies stopped this, with vaccines, testing, and quarantine.

740 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:04pm

Here's one for everyone. Remember homes being quarantined? Or being quarantined yourself? It wasn't that long ago for some of us. I got a whole week off school when my siblings came down with the mumps. :)

/I lucked out, I didn't have any symptoms.

741 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:06pm

Great. Now I'm getting hate mail from anti-vaccination nuts.

Charles,
How do you know there's no connection between vaccines and autism?
AS far as I know there's no "official"
link between eating deep colored vegetables and getting cancer whatever
that means. You probably think Lorraine Day and Dr. Gerson are quacks as
a result.
You're way too comfortable outside of your knowedge base my friend.
Mike

742 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:18pm

Does anyone else sense the overwhelming need for a circumcision thread? What kinds of trolls would it get?

743 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:32pm

re: #734 snowcrash

I am pretty sure Thimerosal was removed from vaccinations as a preservative in 1999 based on FDA recommendation.

I was told by the doc that it was still used for the flu shots. . .hmmmm

744 anchors_aweigh  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:35pm

re: #670 J.D.

The autism treatment world is very political with many factions. It is true that autism is very rare and mostly untreatable. I was tld by more than one doctor that my son was "classic" autistic. He presented as such, obsessive/compulsive, self-stims, rituals..."Rain Man".

There is something going on that started fairly recently (50-75 years) that causes children to present as autistic. Dr. Goldberg believes these children are being exposed to toxins in their environment (land fills, power lines, lead, food, radon..who knows?)

The first time Dr. Goldberg saw my son he said he could him him. It took a few years and much $$, but with God's help, he indeed worked a miracle.

745 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:35pm

re: #734 snowcrash

Read the manufacturer's product insert. That's the only way you'll be sure.

746 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:04:37pm

re: #725 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds like a very kind and understanding man.

747 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:05:10pm
748 HDrepub  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:05:15pm

re: #616 Salamantis

Well, back then they called them the Big Red Measles; perhaps they were indeed rubeola rather than rubella.

Many soldiers died during the Civil War from red measles epidemics. I am assuming they died from complications but still this was one of the leading causes of death during Civil War.
During WW2 my father contracted red measles while on field maneuvers and ran such a high temperature he was nearly unconscious. He said he woke up in the post hospital three days later, not knowing he was there until then.

749 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:05:17pm

Fact check: Galloway was not banned from entering Canada -he cooked up the whole story to promote himself!

To be clear: Despite what all Galloway's friends will tell you, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney did not ban George Galloway from speaking in Canada, or from not speaking in Canada, and neither did any Canadian official do anything of the kind, either. It did not happen. It did not occur. And it won't do to say, well, yes, but however you put it, the whole thing has only only served to draw more attention to Galloway and his "odious opinions." Something has given Galloway the attention he craves, to be sure. But he hasn't been given anything like the attention he properly deserves, and as for why this is so, well, that is a very good question. It is one of the more important questions raised by this whole affair, so I'll take a shot at answering it.

The bigger story in which l'affaire Galloway is a kind of defining moment involves a phenomenon that is playing out on the same tectonic scale as the emergence of a distinctly Canadian democratic socialism in the 1930s, the Quiet Revolution in Quebec in the 1960s, and the rise of libertarian prairie populism in the 1990s. As is often the case in such upheavals, journalists are the last to notice.

Something wholly new is emerging in Canada, in all the spaces where the Left used to be, in its activist constituencies, its traditional institutions, and its lexicon. Whatever name you want to give the thing, its noticeable features include a betrayal of progressive internationalism, a pathetic weakness for conspiracy theories, and a routine apologetics for antisemitism and terror. Its outlook is generally parochial, but its global engagements tend to align with fascism’s contemporary Islamist variants, even to the point of objective support for the Taliban.

To read most Canadian newspapers, you probably wouldn't have a clue that any of this was going on.

750 kansas  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:05:31pm

re: #741 Charles

Great. Now I'm getting hate mail from anti-vaccination nuts.

Lorraine Day? Oh boy....

751 JHW  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:05:32pm

re: #741 Charles

Any hate mail yet from the dowsers?

752 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:00pm

re: #741 Charles

Great. Now I'm getting hate mail from anti-vaccination nuts.


I hate that for you.
It was bound to happen.

753 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:01pm
754 geochem  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:03pm

Do away with vaccines, refrigeration, fossil fuels, and motor vehicles. Protect the planet, because everything is going extinct. If you are breathing, you are the cause. No Independent Thought! Be happy. Accept. Carbon Dioxide is evil. Capitalism is evil.


// just watchin TV

755 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:08pm

re: #741 Charles

The discussion of the science of vaccinations is a good topic. It involves personal responsibility. Better to be well informed than rolling the health dice.

756 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:08pm

re: #732 Harry Tuttle

"As a rough guide, singles eligible for the credit might get between $10 to $15 per paycheck if paid weekly; for those married filing jointly, they're likely to see an extra $15 to $20."

Who's feeling stimulated?


I've got the tingle in my leg.

757 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:12pm

re: #733 Sharmuta

If stating facts makes me a bully, then it's going to make fact checking around here just a bit more difficult.

Have another cup of tea, Sharmuta.

758 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:15pm

re: #741 Charles

Nice passive-aggressive ending.

759 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:17pm

re: #540 Noam Sayin'

I open and read, "Islamist Dickhead."

You just know when they're going to be good.

I once got a fund-raising e-mail addressed to "My Muslim Brother". All I could think was, Dude, do you ever have the wrong number.

760 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:18pm

re: #741 Charles

Great. Now I'm getting hate mail from anti-vaccination nuts.

WOW. . .no to shots but yes to hating people. . .ya gotta wonder. . .

761 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:18pm

more...

When Galloway visited Ottawa two years ago, he was every bit as famous as he is now. He was the guest of honour at a publicly-advertised 74th birthday party for the Syrian Social Nationalist Party. The SSNP is an unambiguously fascist movement with shiny boots and uniforms, its own distinctive swastika, and an anthem sung to the tune of Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles.

Not one Canadian news organization reported Galloway’s Ottawa visit.

In these ways, a dirty thing goes unreported when it shows its true face, but when it shows the face it wants us to see, it is "widely reported," and this is the face the news media has grown accustomed to presenting to us. In these ways, stenography masquerades as journalism, and journalism becomes something else again. Remember: the "news story" about Galloway that ended up going viral these past few days never even happened.

In that story, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney became so frightened that Galloway would say something fatally witty about Canada’s mission in Afghanistan that he lost his mind and invoked some little known police-state power to keep Galloway out of the country, and thus irretrievably contaminated Canada’s vital bodily free-speech fluids.

This is the story we were all invited to freely discuss. To guide us in our deliberations, the usual pundits took pains to affirm the virtue of their own avant-garde tastes and prejudices by condescending to explain that Galloway is really just a flamboyant British philanthropist, and Ottawa was being mean to him because of his humanitarian work among the Palestinians, and well, you know, the Jews were being beastly about it.

Do you notice how this commentariat consensus wouldn't be so ubiquitous if some Zionist cabal was controlling the media in Canada? Good. Thank you for noticing. Here's something else you will want to notice.

George Galloway is what we used to call a fascist thug. But nowadays, his Canadian fan base, his megaphone-carriers and his booking agents include New Democratic Party MPs, Bloc MPs, the Council of Canadians, the Ottawa Peace Assembly and a legion of student leaders, trade unionists and “anti-war” activists.

Whatever name you want to give this phenomenon, it hasn't been getting the attention it properly deserves. It's been underway for quite some time.

We should be paying attention.

762 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:19pm

re: #716 opilio

Little known, but hardly surprising fact:

Rachel Carson was posthumously awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Jimmy Carter in 1980.

No shit?

763 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:21pm

people get freaked out and say stuff they might not otherwise because of their proximity to a subject...they even may get hostile, and even cross the line of cyber propriety...so be it...forgiveness is virtuous and in practice can only improve a strained situation...we should all try to understand each moment while not losing sight of a bigger picture...that said I'm still pissed at whoever called me a potato head and when I dig it oughta the archives woe be unto them....

764 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:23pm

re: #748 HDrepub

It is well known that Vitamin A deficiency can cause complications from measles. Hence in vaccination campaigns in Africa they also now give Vitamin A.

765 snowcrash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:06:30pm

re: #743 DisturbedEma
I will check...give me minute. MY kids get flu shots too. One has asthma.

766 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:07:09pm

re: #757 Irish Rose

I'm just a bit hurt that you would think I was the bully here.

767 sleepyone  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:07:39pm

re: #162 NukeAtomrod

No, but the new age hippie-types do go in for the natural healing=good medical science=bad in very high proportions. The registered nurse/childbirth instructor that my wife and I were required to see suggested aromatherapy, reflexology and sage smudging, but discouraged vaccinations and circumcision. I'm glad that the mandatory class only cost 30 bucks.

Ha, I have heard the same shit from the couple I mentioned in my post at #709. They too are crazy left, new agey and when their (unvaccinated) son developed a loss of hearing and needed to have tubes put in his ears to drain the fluid they instead took him to a chiropractor! I didn't even know they could "crack" your ears! Coincidentally I had this exact same procedure of tubes put into my ears as a youngster and it was like magic for me. For months I couldn't hear so well and after the procedure I could hear so well that I felt like Superman. I tried to convince my friend that he is only hurting his son by not having the tubes. Finally after weeks and weeks of taking his son to a quack he relented under the advice of their pediatrician and got them. His son's hearing and demeanor changed instantly and he now knows he was wrong about that at least.

768 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:07:48pm

re: #741 Charles

Thank you for this thread, Charles. If we can convince parents of the risk/benefit ratio, we'll have helped their children. "Doing nothing" has greater risks than the vaccines. This is a very difficult concept for mathematically challenged folks to absorb.

769 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:08:19pm

re: #741 Charles

Great. Now I'm getting hate mail from anti-vaccination nuts.

when you do a logging thread you'll get hate mail from anti-oaklie...it never ends

770 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:08:44pm

re: #742 hazzyday

Does anyone else sense the overwhelming need for a circumcision thread? What kinds of trolls would it get?

Snippy, I bet!

771 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:08:56pm

re: #713 LGoPs

There's been so much yelling and telling people to shut up around here that I am going to innoculate myself lest I be drawn into it:

LGoPs: "Shut the fuck up or else".........

LGoPs: "Oh yeah.....make me"

LGoPs: "Damn you, STFU"

LGoPs: "Fine. Harumph"

/

Man, that was a pretty good argument you had with yourself....

/snicker

772 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:08:59pm

re: #725 SanFranciscoZionist

In Canada I suspect most everyone is familiar with a story about a botched circumcision (the mother was not Jewish, nor the family). There was a book written about the fellow "As nature made him: The boy who was raised as a girl." He had a horrific life...(they forced him to act like a girl -- dressed him up as a girl, etc., even though he felt he was male). Eventually, though he re-asserted himself as a male (got married)...(a short time after his story was told, though, he committed suicide.)

773 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:03pm

re: #765 snowcrash

There are multi-dose vials, used for adults, with preservatives. Infant vaccines are unit dose, thimersol-free.

774 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:06pm

re: #733 Sharmuta

If stating facts makes me a bully, then it's going to make fact checking around here just a bit more difficult.

No..
You posted scientific facts and studies..That will never make you a Bully...
In Max's case he was so emotional about a sick child..You got got to step back and let him vent..It's what parents do.. That doesn't change any of the facts..I'm sorry for him...
That doesn't make you a Bully

775 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:17pm
776 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:24pm

re: #156 opnion

Question, when I was a kid, children with "Hair Lips " were common.
Who knows what causes that & why is it less frequent today?

* * ** *
Something called the tetralogy of Phio? John McCain's adopted daughter from Bangladesh was born with this cluster of problems, and has had many reconstructive surgeries since babyhood, to correct these multiple issues.

777 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:28pm

re: #766 Sharmuta

I'm just a bit hurt that you would think I was the bully here.

So sorry Sharm- I really appreciate the facts used here- there are so many sites that just do the stream of consciousness bull. . .

778 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:38pm

re: #770 Guanxi88

Snippy, I bet!

Many cutting remarks.

779 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:41pm

re: #726 Bobblehead

Work...LOL...
I should clarify that thimerosal is no longer used in vaccines that infants would receive..MMR, ect.
Plus, by eating a can of tuna, you would get the same thimerosal exposure as receiving a tetanus and diphtheria vaccine for example.

780 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:51pm

re: #765 snowcrash

I will check...give me minute. MY kids get flu shots too. One has asthma.

cool

781 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:53pm

re: #762 MandyManners

No shit?

Kill enough people Rabbit Bait is bound to love you.

782 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:09:58pm

re: #744 anchors_aweigh

I have a friend who long ago adopted a baby girl who, as it turned out, was autistic. She must be 30 now. They tried everything available at the time.

I am so glad to hear you had a positive outcome. Not as glad as you, I know...

But very very happy for you!

783 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:10:12pm

re: #754 geochem

Do away with vaccines, refrigeration, fossil fuels, and motor vehicles. Protect the planet, because everything is going extinct. If you are breathing, you are the cause. No Independent Thought! Be happy. Accept. Carbon Dioxide is evil. Capitalism is evil.

// just watchin TV

add in opposition to irradiation of food.

784 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:10:28pm

On George Galloway -- unfortunately the Canadian government played right into his hands by denying him a visa. Now he's ranting all over the place about the cowardice of the Canadian government, getting more publicity than he ever would have received if they'd just let him visit, and working the victim angle like a pro.

Bad move, Canada. The guy is a terror-supporting creep, but he's also an expert at exploiting situations like this.

785 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:10:35pm

re: #547 funky chicken

Um, actually, it looks like circumcision reduces the spread of AIDS, which is why men in Africa are actually lining up to get circumcised. I was really nervous about getting my son circumcized after he was born and had read a lot of articles about risks and benefits. My OB/GYN came in and talked to me, and said that he and the pediatrician I'd chosen would do it together if I so chose...

The thing that tipped the scale was the fact that uncirc'd infant boys have higher rates of urinary tract infections, and with uncirc'd baby boys, they catheterize them to get a clean urine sample. urg.

I read about that. A statistical analysis does say that circumcised men have a lower incidence of AIDS, but that's not causality. It doesn't make much logical sense, unless HIV incubates under the foreskin in some way. It seems like an extraordinary claim, but who knows? Those African men would still be wise to use latex condoms and/or refrain from casual sex.

786 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:10:50pm
787 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:10:54pm

re: #764 WilderstadI was waiting for you to show up here. You and I had a long discussion about vaccines in the Lounge one night. I was hoping you would come in and tell everyone else about what you have learned. : )

788 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:03pm

re: #783 funky chicken

add in opposition to irradiation of food.

Glowing food will save energy. No more light bulbs in refrigerators!

//////////

789 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:05pm

re: #710 NYCHardhat

Several days ago I misunderstood something you worte and took a swipe at you. I was unable to follow up at the time, but I would like to take this opportunity to retract my comments & apologize to you.

As Iron Fist wisely observed, "If you think you might be too drunk to post, you probably are too drunk to post." I should have remembered that at the time.

790 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:15pm

re: #621 funky chicken

Honestly, I think autism has always been around. One fictional character who just exemplifies autism is Matthew in Anne of Green Gables--quiet, shy, very socially awkward farmer. In agrarian societies, the quiet/different folks just went about their business.

I often think of how much easier things would be for my ADHD kids, or my just-not-too-academic kids for that matter, in a different kind of society.

791 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:19pm

re: #771 Macker

Man, that was a pretty good argument you had with yourself....

/snicker

:)

792 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:22pm

re: #779 grahamski


Again the body has defenses against the ingestion of such. The exposure is not the same.
Thimerosal in vaccines is injected directly into tissue.

793 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:40pm
794 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:47pm

re: #772 J.S.

The procedure was a disaster. However, the psychological upbringing of this child was also botched, due to the belief that all gender-related behavior was due to nurture.

795 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:11:55pm

re: #751 JHW

Any hate mail yet from the dowsers?

They're all washed up.

796 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:12:02pm

re: #776 alegrias

And had not the McCains adopted Bridget away from that Hellhole, she would most likely be dead.

797 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:12:20pm

re: #774 HoosierHoops

No..
You posted scientific facts and studies..That will never make you a Bully...
In Max's case he was so emotional about a sick child..You got got to step back and let him vent..It's what parents do.. That doesn't change any of the facts..I'm sorry for him...
That doesn't make you a Bully

Well said- feel better Sharm

798 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:12:25pm

re: #763 albusteve

people get freaked out and say stuff they might not otherwise because of their proximity to a subject...they even may get hostile, and even cross the line of cyber propriety...so be it...forgiveness is virtuous and in practice can only improve a strained situation...we should all try to understand each moment while not losing sight of a bigger picture...that said I'm still pissed at whoever called me a potato head and when I dig it oughta the archives woe be unto them....

Spud top, spud top, spud top...

799 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:12:46pm

re: #776 alegrias

Tetrology of Fallot.
It's a cardiac congenital anomaly.

800 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:12:51pm

re: #667 Salamantis

The same person who told me to shut up - Max.

I should'nt have told you to "shut-up"...I was wrong to say that crap to you and you did'nt deserve it.

801 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:12:54pm

re: #729 Wilderstad

Correct, it is used in the influenza vaccine.

802 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:12:59pm

re: #784 Charles

Read this article... it seems the Canadian gov't did not ban him.

[Link: transmontanus.blogspot.com...]

In any event, Galloway is still free to make his sppeech via video link. Yes, the thug got free publicity. Better he should have come and been arrested.

803 soxfan4life  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:05pm

re: #767 sleepyone

Ha, I have heard the same shit from the couple I mentioned in my post at #709. They too are crazy left, new agey and when their (unvaccinated) son developed a loss of hearing and needed to have tubes put in his ears to drain the fluid they instead took him to a chiropractor! I didn't even know they could "crack" your ears! Coincidentally I had this exact same procedure of tubes put into my ears as a youngster and it was like magic for me. For months I couldn't hear so well and after the procedure I could hear so well that I felt like Superman. I tried to convince my friend that he is only hurting his son by not having the tubes. Finally after weeks and weeks of taking his son to a quack he relented under the advice of their pediatrician and got them. His son's hearing and demeanor changed instantly and he now knows he was wrong about that at least.


Hopefully the kid gets even when it's time to put Mom and Dad in a home.

804 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:07pm

re: #766 Sharmuta

I'm just a bit hurt that you would think I was the bully here.

I've always thought of you as the "Bluey" here..........and realllllllllllly small.

805 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:14pm

re: #793 buzzsawmonkey

But how many of them really have access to formalwear?

We're not going to get into a fresh round of spatz about puns, now, are we?

806 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:16pm

re: #784 Charles

Charles, Galloway was a big proponent of banning Geert Wilders from the UK.

I wonder how he feels now the shoe is on the other foot?

Looks good on him. Why should Canada let the enemy into the country?

807 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:37pm

re: #779 grahamski

Work...LOL...
I should clarify that thimerosal is no longer used in vaccines that infants would receive..MMR, ect.
Plus, by eating a can of tuna, you would get the same thimerosal exposure as receiving a tetanus and diphtheria vaccine for example.

It's nice to have a pharmacist in the house, so to speak. Thanks for the info. Got any other interesting pharmaceutical news?

808 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:40pm

re: #801 grahamski

There is thimersol-free vaccine for infants.

809 NYCHardhat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:52pm

re: #789 Kenneth

Several days ago I misunderstood something you worte and took a swipe at you. I was unable to follow up at the time, but I would like to take this opportunity to retract my comments & apologize to you.

As Iron Fist wisely observed, "If you think you might be too drunk to post, you probably are too drunk to post." I should have remembered that at the time.

Its cool. *handshake*

810 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:54pm

re: #781 jcm

Kill enough people Rabbit Bait is bound to love you.

Had the effects of stopping using DDT been realized back then?

811 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:13:55pm
812 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:14:09pm

re: #795 MandyManners

They're all washed up.

Stinky gave 'em the stick and they're out looking for water?

813 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:14:14pm

re: #798 Walter L. Newton

Spud top, spud top, spud top...

hey Walter!...you made bail!....I have your address btw

814 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:14:18pm

re: #775 WhiteRasta

Not funny.

815 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:14:34pm

re: #800 Maximu§

I should'nt have told you to "shut-up"...I was wrong to say that crap to you and you did'nt deserve it.


Glad you are back- I apologize for getting in the way. My best wishes to you and yours.

816 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:14:44pm

re: #790 SanFranciscoZionist

I often think of how much easier things would be for my ADHD kids, or my just-not-too-academic kids for that matter, in a different kind of society.

I'd bet big money that a lot of the early frontiersmen like Daniel Boone were ADHD or possibly borderline autistic or something.

817 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:09pm

re: #766 Sharmuta

I'm just a bit hurt that you would think I was the bully here.

Max should definitely apologize to the people that he attacked, including you. There is no excuse for telling people to shut up.

But the people who were needlessly provocative when he was obviously upset and in a very sensitive place emotionally, should step up to the plate and do the same.

Sure, we all have problems. But having a damaged child is a terrible, terrible thing to have to deal with... the worst kind of pain that you can have in life. It's a sore spot that never heals.

818 Roses  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:15pm

re: #543 Roses
Measles, Mumps, Polio, TB - all good, as I mentioned in my comment above re: #543 NOT GETTING YOUR KID VACCINATED PUTS OTHER KIDS AT RISK.

BUT - Then there are the newer vaccines - My two older kids had chicken pox, one a normal case, and the other had 105 degree fever for 5 days, and pox lesions on her eyes. Scared me.

As a result my two youngest received the (new) chicken pox vaccine. But I have mixed feelings about that one. Chicken Pox is not generally life threatening, and the reason it is becoming a mandated vaccine seems to have more to do with schools wanting the ADA (average daily attendance) money than anything else.

I also have real reservations about the new genital warts vaccine being mandated. It doesn't seem to me that they have had enough time to know, in either of these two cases, whether or not there will be real repercussions down the road.

There are also some medical studies that suggest that childhood diseases like measles and mumps give some cancer-fighting abilities along with lifelong immunities - as related to me by a friend who worked with some who did the studies. I don't have links to any of that info just now, but if I find it, I'll post it. Maybe someone else has info relating to this. It is a fascinating concept.

So there are some legitimate concerns and reasons for discussion. And, as I noted, some kids do not get the vaccinations on a Doctor's advice due to reactions to the shots. I urge compassion to Max and others above, even while I agree the autism thing is being over-hyped.

819 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:16pm

re: #682 Macker

Got a link for that!

Tsutomu Yamaguchi

820 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:20pm

To return to the main theme here:

And I say this as one whose dinner table features a full-on, hair twisting, hand-flapping, non-verbal autistic child:

EVEN IF vaccinations, or complications from vaccinations, could be found to be even slightly responsible for some portion, however large or small, of autism cases, I'd rather my perfect son be as he is, than to see any other children die of measles or any one of a number of diseases that advanced nations like the US used to work to eradicate.

As it is, though, no link is there, and so it's a moot point. I wish sometimes that there were some way to eradicate the disorder; Hell, blaming it on vaccines is an easy way out, because in that case it's somebody's fault, and we all get a great deal of satisfaction out of finding out who's to blame for a situation, especially if there's no fix for it.

821 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:20pm
822 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:23pm

re: #810 MandyManners

Had the effects of stopping using DDT been realized back then?

I don't know, but death rates must have been climbing. Of course Africa is such a cesspool in so many ways it's hard to separate out the cause of death.

823 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:31pm

re: #798 Walter L. Newton

Spud top, spud top, spud top...

I prefer "tater-head".

824 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:39pm

re: #813 albusteve

hey Walter!...you made bail!....I have your address btw

Er, so? Everyone does if they click on my name.

825 Don Miguel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:40pm

This is just another sign of how the education in this country (and the western world to be more precise) has been declining for the last several decades. The lack of reason and logical thinking in the general public continues to decline to the point where hysteria and idiocy will reign one day -- if not already. The MSM just perpetuates ignorance and scientific illiteracy because let's face it: journalists in general are scientifically illiterate. If you add in how lawyers have misused and misrepresented science in pursuit of money for themselves ... ah, I mean their clients (e.g. silicon breast implants vaccines, etc.) and how most people's exposure to science is what they see in the products of the entertainment industry, it's no wonder that ill-educated people will believe in anything. It’s not much different than 7th century-thinking Imams in Africa spreading the lies that the polio vaccine is a Jewish plot to kill their future little martyrs.

And it comes as no surprise to me that this is originating from the more affluent – and presumably more educated – parents. After all they’ve probably been more exposed to the indoctrination and lack of real education currently offered by most universities than the average person has.

826 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:41pm

re: #814 Walter L. Newton

Why, thank you!

827 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:15:45pm

re: #804 IslandLibertarian

I've always thought of you as the "Bluey" here..........and realllllllllllly small.

They say good things come in small packages. But so does dynamite. ;)

/*ducks and covers*

828 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:16:00pm

re: #763 albusteve

people get freaked out and say stuff they might not otherwise because of their proximity to a subject...they even may get hostile, and even cross the line of cyber propriety...so be it...forgiveness is virtuous and in practice can only improve a strained situation...we should all try to understand each moment while not losing sight of a bigger picture...that said I'm still pissed at whoever called me a potato head and when I dig it oughta the archives woe be unto them....

You prefer MR. POTATO HEAD right?

829 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:16:04pm

re: #766 Sharmuta

I'm just a bit hurt that you would think I was the bully here.

Yeah; we were told to shut up precisely because we would NOT acquiesce to being bullied away from the science by irrational attacks fueled by fervent emotional conviction.

830 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:16:04pm

re: #817 Irish Rose

Max should definitely apologize to the people that he attacked, including you. There is no excuse for telling people to shut up.

But the people who were needlessly provocative when he was obviously upset and in a very sensitive place emotionally, should step up to the plate and do the same.

Sure, we all have problems. But having a damaged child is a terrible, terrible thing to have to deal with... the worst kind of pain that you can have in life. It's a sore spot that never heals.

Um, please PLEASE do not call my children "damaged"!

831 snowcrash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:16:10pm

re: #780 DisturbedEma
Does the influenza vaccine contain thimerosal?
Yes From the CDC bulletin

832 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:16:29pm

re: #823 MandyManners

I prefer "tater-head".

I'm getting hungry. Carb attack.

833 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:16:42pm

re: #811 buzzsawmonkey

A man's garter do what a man's garter do.

That was a really dickie thing to say.

834 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:16:44pm

re: #823 MandyManners

I prefer "tater-head".

They call me Tater Salad

835 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:01pm

re: #784 Charles

This paragraph needs repeating:

Something wholly new is emerging in Canada, in all the spaces where the Left used to be, in its activist constituencies, its traditional institutions, and its lexicon. Whatever name you want to give the thing, its noticeable features include a betrayal of progressive internationalism, a pathetic weakness for conspiracy theories, and a routine apologetics for antisemitism and terror. Its outlook is generally parochial, but its global engagements tend to align with fascism’s contemporary Islamist variants, even to the point of objective support for the Taliban.

The Canadian left, which includes the Bloc Quebecois, the socialist New Democratic Party and a large rump of the Liberal Parry have alligned themselves with the contemporary international incarnation of Fascism.

836 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:05pm

re: #787 UberInfidel67

Unfortunately I'd have to write a book and that book would be at least three.
It's a very complex issue. Intertwined with great emotion and great tragedy.
The only things I can say is read the manufacturer's insert. Not the CDC information pages. Stop over at VAERS. Realize that with every vaccine you are paying on a insurance policy that is hardly ever paid out for proven vaccine damage, which is hard to come by. Assess your risk.

Decide what's best for you and your family.

Medicine is NOT one size fits all, nor should it be. It's well known that men and women respond differently to pain killers, it's well known that redheads require more anesthetic. It's also well known that children do not respond the same way to medications as adults.

837 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:11pm

re: #821 Iron Fist

I'm surprised they didn't give her the Nobel Peace Prize. She's certainly killed enough people to be in the running...

Looking at the way he killed his sister's cat, I'm beginning to think he worships birds.

838 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:17pm

re: #821 Iron Fist

I'm surprised they didn't give her the Nobel Peace Prize. She's certainly killed enough people to be in the running...

heh...so true

839 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:47pm

re: #823 MandyManners

I prefer "tater-head".

Like Andy Rooney? (He's such a common tater)

840 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:51pm

re: #809 NYCHardhat

Its cool. *handshake*

Man hug dude!

841 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:55pm

re: #738 USBeast

...not this again! ! ! now I'm really hyperventilating...(just joking). Actually, you see, when Muslims (or certain Muslim groups) want to have Sharia law brought to countries such as Canada -- they want CIVIL proceedings to be adjudicated along the lines of Sharia -- it's about marriages, inheritance, family law things. This is not about "stoning adulterous women." (and, yes, that is done in certain Muslim countries which have adopted Sharia law and have put into place capital punishment for certain offenses.) Capital punishment for adultery was not what they're after here in Canada. (there's no capital punishment in Canada.)

842 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:17:58pm

re: #831 snowcrash

Does the influenza vaccine contain thimerosal?
Yes From the CDC bulletin

And they will continue to be given to my kids- but I am thinking of giving up tuna. . .:)

Thanks

843 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:18:10pm

re: #784 Charles

On George Galloway -- unfortunately the Canadian government played right into his hands by denying him a visa. Now he's ranting all over the place about the cowardice of the Canadian government, getting more publicity than he ever would have received if they'd just let him visit, and working the victim angle like a pro.

Bad move, Canada. The guy is a terror-supporting creep, but he's also an expert at exploiting situations like this.

Charles, I have to disagree. Galloway would have worked the victim angle no matter what the Canadian government did. That's what he does.

The only other thing Canada could have done is allow him in and arrest him for "hate speech", in which case he would still be the "victim". Keep him out and let him rant. He will eventually expose himself as an idiot.

844 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:18:14pm

re: #833 Occasional Reader

That was a really dickie thing to say.

Careful puns make me want to puttee a foot up some ones' a**!

;-P

845 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:18:18pm

re: #817 Irish Rose

Max should definitely apologize to the people that he attacked, including you. There is no excuse for telling people to shut up.

But the people who were needlessly provocative when he was obviously upset and in a very sensitive place emotionally, should step up to the plate and do the same.

Sure, we all have problems. But having a damaged child is a terrible, terrible thing to have to deal with... the worst kind of pain that you can have in life. It's a sore spot that never heals.

Listen Princess, your one of the nicest people here...so you'll never get a remark like that from me. I told Sal I was wrong, but thats as far as I go.

846 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:18:35pm

re: #830 DisturbedEma
Ema? I am sure that your little "punkins" (that's what I call all little people) are perfect. : )

847 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:18:37pm
848 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:31pm

re: #847 buzzsawmonkey

Shirt man, that's a bad pun.

849 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:32pm

re: #846 UberInfidel67

Ema? I am sure that your little "punkins" (that's what I call all little people) are perfect. : )

Well. . .perfect for me:)

850 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:38pm

re: #817 Irish Rose

Max should definitely apologize to the people that he attacked, including you. There is no excuse for telling people to shut up.

But the people who were needlessly provocative when he was obviously upset and in a very sensitive place emotionally, should step up to the plate and do the same.

Sure, we all have problems. But having a damaged child is a terrible, terrible thing to have to deal with... the worst kind of pain that you can have in life. It's a sore spot that never heals.

I agree with the gist of your post but damaged is not the right word.

851 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:48pm

re: #818 Roses

I also have real reservations about the new genital warts vaccine being mandated.

You prefer Genital Warts? The vaccine is 100% (!) effective against the the most common cause of Cervical Cancer. The first time that I gave this vaccine to a patient (I was in the Delivery Room at her birth, 12 years ago)) I trembled with joy.

852 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:51pm

re: #847 buzzsawmonkey

sleave it to you...

853 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:52pm

re: #835 Kenneth


This paragraph needs repeating:

The Canadian left, which includes the Bloc Quebecois, the socialist New Democratic Party and a large rump of the Liberal Parry have alligned themselves with the contemporary international incarnation of Fascism.

Sweet jebus. From your link:

When Galloway visited Ottawa two years ago, he was every bit as famous as he is now. He was the guest of honour at a publicly-advertised 74th birthday party for the Syrian Social Nationalist Party. The SSNP is an unambiguously fascist movement with shiny boots and uniforms, its own distinctive swastika, and an anthem sung to the tune of Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles.

Not one Canadian news organization reported Galloway’s Ottawa visit.

Criminy. Do you know this to be true?!

854 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:53pm

re: #839 Occasional Reader

Like Andy Rooney? (He's such a common tater)

I went to a Hallowe'en party once with a guy who went as a dic-tater.

You can imagine the costume...

855 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:19:59pm

re: #824 Walter L. Newton

Er, so? Everyone does if they click on my name.

I've never clicked an avatar....

856 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:00pm

re: #737 UberInfidel67

To be honest, and I may be wrong...I believe that is what my Catholic faith taught me. I admit I could be mistaken though. My reasons were wholey religious.

OK. I'm interested in this sort of thing.

857 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:03pm

re: #845 Maximu§

Listen Princess, your one of the nicest people here...so you'll never get a remark like that from me. I told Sal I was wrong, but thats as far as I go.

MYOB, Ema MYOB. . .

858 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:04pm

re: #818 Roses

chicken pox can cause encephalitis also. it's not as bad as measles, but can either cause brain damage or can kill the child.

and then down the road you can develop shingles...same virus that colonizes the nerves and just stays dormant for decades in some cases.

859 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:20pm

re: #836 Wilderstad
And that is what it boils down to. What might be right for some, might not be right for others. I agree 150%.

860 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:26pm

re: #847 buzzsawmonkey

Everyone does the vest they can under the circumstances--even if sometimes it's a little off collar.

On that note I have to sash-ay out of here. Later lizards.....

861 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:31pm
862 NYCHardhat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:39pm

I've noticed in the last couple of months there has been many people in my life that I have been short with and vice versa. I think this fucking administration is doing so much direct and indirect harm.

863 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:42pm

Condescending to a person who defended him, and people wonder why I think he's a jerk.

864 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:43pm

re: #841 J.S.

re: #841 J.S.

...((there's no capital punishment in Canada.) Yet!

I have a big problem with the phenomenon of creeping sharia.

865 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:55pm

re: #796 Macker

And had not the McCains adopted Bridget away from that Hellhole, she would most likely be dead.

* * * * *
Yes, Cindy McCain saved many childrens' lives, out of her own Budweiser-financed budget.

Cindy McCain singlehandedly took medical teams to Bangladesh country to treat children in Mother Theresa's orphanage and perhaps other places.

866 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:20:56pm

re: #853 Occasional Reader

Yes, this is the same Syrian thugs who beat up Hitch in Beirut.

867 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:21:20pm

re: #855 albusteve

I've never clicked an avatar....

You must be kidding.

868 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:21:24pm

re: #850 Harry Tuttle

I agree with the gist of your post but damaged is not the right word.

She did not mean it the way so many others do- I give her a "hey now" not a bash. . .

869 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:21:34pm

For those wanting to follow today's special election.

Live Results

870 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:21:34pm

re: #861 buzzsawmonkey

We all get cuffed for our comments occasionally.

Or the pun police collar us.

871 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:21:56pm

re: #857 DisturbedEma

MYOB, Ema MYOB. . .

it doesn't work every time

872 Natasha  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:22:02pm

re: #827 BlueCanuck

They say good things come in small packages. But so does dynamite. ;)

/*ducks and covers*

Dynamite is good... But C4 is better! Bigger BOOM! if you please...

873 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:22:18pm

re: #863 Sharmuta

Condescending to a person who defended him, and people wonder why I think he's a jerk.

Who? No quote Sharm

874 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:22:26pm

re: #836 Wilderstad

redheads require more anesthetic.

This is very useful information.

875 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:22:53pm

re: #867 J.D.

You must be kidding.

the avatar will steal my soul...I avoid them

876 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:22:54pm

re: #863 Sharmuta

Condescending to a person who defended him, and people wonder why I think he's a jerk.

Sigh- so it seems. . .still thinking good thought for ya!

877 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:22:56pm

re: #865 alegrias

There's no "h" in Mother Teresa.

/pet peeve

878 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:22:59pm

re: #868 DisturbedEma

She did not mean it the way so many others do- I give her a "hey now" not a bash. . .

I agree, that is what I was trying to say.

879 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:02pm

re: #792 Wilderstad

Mercury, in the form of methyl mercury (oral ingestion) and thimerosal (intramuscular injection with vaccines) are both readily absorbed and distributed into blood and brain at virtually the same levels.

880 MPH  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:07pm

re: #92 CyanSnowHawk

There are many that are behind it, but not the least of those are parents with autistic children trying to find something, anything, that can help explain what happened to their kids. This breaks my heart and stirs my anger at the others that promote this. As long as it is unclear how it develops, there will be some that grasp at this straw.

I suppose the class action lawyers are pushing this one too.

881 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:09pm

re: #847 buzzsawmonkey

Everyone does the vest they can under the circumstances--even if sometimes it's a little off collar.

Don't be an as! cot it out!

882 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:35pm

re: #876 DisturbedEma

Thanks.

883 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:41pm

re: #858 funky chicken

chicken pox can cause encephalitis also. it's not as bad as measles, but can either cause brain damage or can kill the child.

and then down the road you can develop shingles...same virus that colonizes the nerves and just stays dormant for decades in some cases.

My Dada and brother-in-law both had shingles. Very, Very, Very painful!

884 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:53pm

re: #871 albusteve

it doesn't work every time

I am trying, Steve- I am trying. . .I will log off in a bit. . .just need to get chilled to put the kids to bed after this roller coaster ride. . .

885 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:57pm

re: #796 Macker

And had not the McCains adopted Bridget away from that Hellhole, she would most likely be dead.

I love the story McCain tells about Cindy bringing the baby home.

886 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:23:58pm

One of these days we will be able to mimic evolution's method of immunization, and design viruses that splice genetic sequences into our genomes that keep us from ever contracting the diseases. Evolution does that now, but usually at pandemic and horrific cost (many die, and those who get the sequence spliced in by the disease do not, and reproduce more surviving offspring, and the immunized genome gradually spreads through the population).

]Hurry the day when we don't have to endure such horrors in order to be protected from their recurrence.

887 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:24:09pm

re: #841 J.S.

...not this again! ! ! now I'm really hyperventilating...(just joking). Actually, you see, when Muslims (or certain Muslim groups) want to have Sharia law brought to countries such as Canada -- they want CIVIL proceedings to be adjudicated along the lines of Sharia -- it's about marriages, inheritance, family law things. This is not about "stoning adulterous women." (and, yes, that is done in certain Muslim countries which have adopted Sharia law and have put into place capital punishment for certain offenses.) Capital punishment for adultery was not what they're after here in Canada. (there's no capital punishment in Canada.)

Sharia is Sharia. Whether it creeps or gallops, it has no place on a sane planet.

888 Gus  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:24:09pm

re: #881 Occasional Reader

Don't be an as! cot it out!

I will not skirt the issue and refuse to put a sock in it!

889 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:24:26pm

re: #882 Sharmuta

Thanks.

you are most welcome

890 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:24:33pm

Try to think rationally about this, and mind the statistics. The risks of the diseases (especially now, when the herd immunity is waning) outweighs the risks of the current vaccines.

891 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:24:50pm

re: #883 Bobblehead
PIMF

My Dada Dad and brother-in-law both had shingles. Very, Very, Very painful!
892 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:24:54pm

re: #675 Iron Fist

One thing is certain, once it is gone, it won't be coming back. Look at DDT. The deaths of millions of third-world children have been the price paid for getting rid of a proven misquito killer. All the bat boxes, purple martins, and everything else we try cannot make up for the loss of DDT.

What was her name? Sanger? She is as bloody a person in all of history, with death tolls that rival Hitler and Stalin. That it was a mistake, or that those deaths should have been taken into account when doing a risk/reward study on DDT doesn't really bring back the millions dead.

Her name is Rachel Carson. Get this. My daughter's school had a Great Women in History project and a list of women the kids could pick from.

Guess who was on the list. Right. The disease soaked Ms. Carson herself.

I'm compiling data to send to the principal. If any lizards know of good studies to include, please let me know. I'm sick of this crap.

893 Emerald  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:24:54pm

I swear, I think it's going to take a worldwide pandemic to wake people up to reality. Most people are completely clueless as to how deadly these diseases are. They don't see any cases of these diseases, so they just assume the risk isn't there, instead of making the connection that it is the vaccines that prevent the diseases.

My dad was one of the first people in the US to get penicillin. He had polio and TB of the spine as a child and developed an infection from one of the operations. The infection spread to the bones. He lived in the hospital for 8 years because there was no treatment for the infection prior to antibiotics except to remove the shards of bone as they splintered. He was out in two weeks after starting the penicillin. If I had a dollar for every person who heard this story and couldn't comprehend why he didn't get better, I'd be rich. They can't wrap their heads around the idea that the drugs we take for granted really are miracles compared to what medical science used to be.

894 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:25:14pm

re: #888 Gus 802

I will not skirt the issue and refuse to put a sock in it!

Don't go getting all off Kilt-er on us, and letting it all hang out now!

895 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:25:23pm

re: #878 Harry Tuttle

I agree, that is what I was trying to say.

:) I was just trying to get calm and happy for the youngsters. . .

896 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:25:30pm

re: #888 Gus 802

I will not skirt the issue and refuse to put a sock in it!

Note how buzzsaw now tux tail and runs. Ha!

897 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:25:35pm

re: #883 Bobblehead

There is a new vaccine against Shingles for older adults.

898 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:25:40pm

re: #830 DisturbedEma

Um, please PLEASE do not call my children "damaged"!

Sorry, no offense intended.

899 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:25:59pm

re: #869 avanti

For those wanting to follow today's special election.

Live Results

* * * *
Thank you Avanti for posting this New York congressional race thingy. I've been nagging New Yorkers all day to vote, and it's still to close to call eh? May the Tedisco Republican win, is my fervent wish.

900 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:26:20pm

re: #894 jcm

Don't go getting all off Kilt-er on us, and letting it all hang out now!

it's really just a mini issue

901 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:26:39pm

re: #877 J.D.

There's no "h" in Mother Teresa.

/pet peeve

* * * *Thank you, no hablo Bangladeshi.

902 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:26:50pm

re: #856 SanFranciscoZionist You've got me thinking now. I am gonna ask my mother why it is such a big deal to circumcise. I always thought it was a religious thing. She was raised in a Catholic orphanage. It is just the way we do it in my family...extended and otherwise. I can't remember ever hearing that it was for cleanliness purposes, so I have to believe it was for religious purposes instead.

903 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:03pm

re: #901 alegrias

* * * *Thank you, no hablo Bangladeshi.

No problemo.

904 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:16pm

re: #892 kynna

Her name is Rachel Carson. Get this. My daughter's school had a Great Women in History project and a list of women the kids could pick from.

Guess who was on the list. Right. The disease soaked Ms. Carson herself.

I'm compiling data to send to the principal. If any lizards know of good studies to include, please let me know. I'm sick of this crap.

When students of mine used to talk about SANGER, in glowing terms. . .I had to shudder- the information they were getting in history class was sooooo bad

905 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:17pm

re: #816 funky chicken

I'd bet big money that a lot of the early frontiersmen like Daniel Boone were ADHD or possibly borderline autistic or something.

Oh, no doubt. There's an idea, I don't know how well tested, out there, that ADD/ADHDH etc. are a hunting adaptation. Allows someone to stay constantly alert, refocus in seconds...useful woodcraft skills.

Pain in the ass if you have to get a classroom education in a modern setting.

906 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:21pm

re: #877 J.D.

There's no "h" in Mother Teresa.

/pet peeve

Then wouldn't it be Moter Teresa?

907 Joan Not of Arc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:24pm

My God! This is dangerous! How could people let themselves be deluded like this?
This is why people should be airlifted into places in Africa or North Korea so they can see human misery at its worst. There are parents who would do anything to make their children well but idiots in North America who have all the advantages in the world are panicking over some supposed problem. They should talk to a doctor if they must and immunise their children!

908 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:33pm
909 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:35pm

re: #901 alegrias

* * * *Thank you, no hablo Bangladeshi.

Actually, she was Albanian.

910 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:41pm

#675 Iron Fist

Margaret Sanger was the pro-eugenics promoter of birth control. She wanted to sterilize negros and "other social degenerates". The Nazis modelled their theories on her work. The modern feminist Left idolizes her.

911 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:46pm

re: #900 albusteve

it's really just a mini issue

I'll be brief then......

912 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:50pm

re: #906 Alouette

Then wouldn't it be Moter Teresa?

;-P

/smarty

913 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:53pm

re: #886 Salamantis

Agreed and

It will be kinda cool when Bones or Spock can waive a wand over me and cure me of stuff.

914 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:27:56pm

I remind you: If you refuse vaccines, you are taking the greater risk with your child. It's the parents who agree to the vaccination that are reducing their children's risks.

915 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:07pm

re: #898 Irish Rose

Sorry, no offense intended.


I know- just saying. . .

916 Gus  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:25pm

re: #911 jcm

I'll be brief then......

Might need a belt of liquor first.

917 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:26pm

re: #886 Salamantis

One of these days we will be able to mimic evolution's method of immunization, and design viruses that splice genetic sequences into our genomes that keep us from ever contracting the diseases. Evolution does that now, but usually at pandemic and horrific cost (many die, and those who get the sequence spliced in by the disease do not, and reproduce more surviving offspring, and the immunized genome gradually spreads through the population).

]Hurry the day when we don't have to endure such horrors in order to be protected from their recurrence.

The nice thing about it is that, unlike present vaccinations, this genetic splicing also immunizes all your descendents.

918 Van Helsing  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:37pm

re: #841 J.S.

...not this again! ! ! now I'm really hyperventilating...(just joking). Actually, you see, when Muslims (or certain Muslim groups) want to have Sharia law brought to countries such as Canada -- they want CIVIL proceedings to be adjudicated along the lines of Sharia -- it's about marriages, inheritance, family law things. This is not about "stoning adulterous women." (and, yes, that is done in certain Muslim countries which have adopted Sharia law and have put into place capital punishment for certain offenses.) Capital punishment for adultery was not what they're after here in Canada. (there's no capital punishment in Canada.)

Doesn't Canada have a civil law system? If so, why should they set up special courts for a segment of the population?

That gets to be scary because nothing EVER stops where it starts.

919 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:37pm
920 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:50pm

re: #906 Alouette

Then wouldn't it be Moter Teresa?

At least it's not Mothra Teresa.

921 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:28:58pm

re: #911 jcm

I'll be brief then......

nothing thong with that

922 Emerald  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:29:18pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

You have such a bias against liberals that you blind yourself to idiocy on the right. Stupidity know no ideological barriers. This dangerous trend is quite prevalent on the right.

I will phone NYNana right now and she will tell you about a conversation she had with a republican who refused to listen to her about the dangerous of not vaccinating her child it you want me to. Would you believe Nana if she told you?

My cousin left a very conservative church because the pastor told the congregation that vaccines caused illnesses. I've personally seen this nonsense spouted on other conservative-leaning sites. It's not limited to the left.

923 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:29:26pm

re: #896 Occasional Reader

Note how buzzsaw now tux tail and runs. Ha!

Cannot handle the bodice ya

924 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:29:43pm

re: #865 alegrias

* * * * *
Yes, Cindy McCain saved many childrens' lives, out of her own Budweiser-financed budget.

Cindy McCain singlehandedly took medical teams to Bangladesh country to treat children in Mother Theresa's orphanage and perhaps other places.

A nice lady.

925 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:29:45pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

Yes, eventually ...LOL

926 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:30:14pm

re: #913 hazzyday

Agreed and

It will be kinda cool when Bones or Spock can waive a wand over me and cure me of stuff.


I grew a new kidney. . .loved that part. . .

927 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:30:17pm

re: #897 FightingBack

There is a new vaccine against Shingles for older adults.

I know. I'm asking about next month during my next dr. visit

928 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:30:18pm

re: #924 SanFranciscoZionist

A nice lady.

Yes, and the skewered her in the MSM.

929 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:30:20pm

re: #886 Salamantis

One of these days we will be able to mimic evolution's method of immunization,

"Evolution"? You believe in that nonsense?

930 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:30:43pm

re: #907 Joan Not of Arc

I see them in the office regularly. Many are looking for some "Special" statues for themselves: they are the All-Powerful Anti-Vaccinators who refuse to accept the educated advice of those who actually understand the risks and benefits.

931 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:30:50pm

hold onto your seats...word has just come down that the next threat will involve the history of the Rolling Stones...

932 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:30:55pm

i voted for jim tedisco today. i am registered to vote upstate.
it is incredible the amt. of garbage the o machine has sent out to malign
tedisco.
i got 6 glossy smear flyers in the mail today. sleazy shit.
o really wants his hand picked candidate to win.
of course because he wants to look powerful and influential.
he might succeed.
but i i'm so hoping he gets a slap down.

933 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:00pm

re: #922 Emerald

My cousin left a very conservative church because the pastor told the congregation that vaccines caused illnesses. I've personally seen this nonsense spouted on other conservative-leaning sites. It's not limited to the left.

sheesh

934 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:05pm

re: #928 J.D.

Yes, I know "they" has a "y".
pimf

935 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:08pm

re: #688 Alouette

We (the U.S.) already had eliminated malaria using DDT when Rachel Carson came along to condemn its use. Her timing was fortuitous for those who wanted to ban DDT: the threat of malaria was gone, so the threat of DDT to bird life and the ecosystem could be portrayed as substantial. A shell game of sorts.

936 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:23pm

re: #851 FightingBack

The HPV vaccine isthe first to be credited with preventing cancer, a claim hyped in Merck’s marketing campaign “Tell Someone.” In fact, even the types of HPV billed “high risk” rarely actually result in cancer; the immune system generally removes the virus before it causes problems. Also, in the rare instances where it does occur, cervical cancer usually takes five to ten years to develop. Prior to cancer, HPV causes the growth of tell-tale abnormal cells, which can be detected by a Pap smear. Upon detection, the disease can be easily cured by minor surgery to remove the abnormal cells. Therefore, a woman who gets regular Pap smears every one to three years is almost 100% protected from cervical cancer—with no need for an expensive, potentially problematic, under tested vaccine. Cervical cancer accounts for only about one percent of all cancer deaths in US women.

[Link: www.cancer.org...]

“Dr. Nancy Miller, an FDA reviewer, cautioned that Gardasil does not necessarily protect against one or more of the four viruses in people already infected before they get the vaccine, and can increase their risk for precursors to cervical cancer.”

MSNBC Video

One month later…. They’re saying the opposite thing…
“The ACIP stated that Pap and HPV screening prior to vaccination are not necessary. The ACIP also recommended that females can receive GARDASIL regardless of whether they have or previously had an abnormal Pap test, a positive HPV test or genital warts.”
[Link: www.merck.com...]


Here are the VAERS reports for Gardasil so far. Keep in mind that the data contained in the VAERS database does not represent the true number of adverse reactions:
[Link: www.medalerts.org...]

FROM THE CDC, Gardasil VIS: [Link: www.cdc.gov...]

*Most women who develop invasive cervical cancer have not had regular cervical cancer screening.

*Cervical cancer is an uncommon consequence of HPV infection in women, especially if they are screened for cancer regularly with Pap tests and have appropriate follow-up of abnormalities.

*But over the last 40 years, widespread cervical cancer screening using the Pap test and treatment of pre-cancerous cervical abnormalities have resulted in a marked reduction in the incidence of and mortality due to cervical cancer in the U.S. (70%)

Also in the comments from the CDC:
Natural History of Genital HPV Infection
Most HPV infections are transient and asymptomatic, causing no clinical problems. Studies have shown that 70% of new HPV infections clear within one year, and as many as 91% clear within two years (28;33;67;68). The median duration of new infections is typically eight months (28;67). HPV-16 is more likely to persist than other HPV types (28); however, most HPV-16 infections become undetectable within two years (28). Factors associated with persistence
include older age, high-risk HPV types, infection with multiple HPV types, and immune suppression (69;70). The gradual development of an effective immune response is thought to be the likely mechanism for HPV DNA clearance.

937 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:42pm

re: #929 Occasional Reader

"Evolution"? You believe in that nonsense?


Back on happy non contentious discussion grounds. . .:)

938 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:48pm

re: #929 Occasional Reader

"Evolution"? You believe in that nonsense?

I'm assuming your sarc tag is understood.

939 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:50pm

re: #929 Occasional Reader

"Evolution"? You believe in that nonsense?

INCOMING!
Duck and Cover!

;-P

940 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:56pm

Anyone had enough talk of disease?

Let's talk about the coming economic depression and socialist revolution!

Mmmmn. Perhaps a supertanker thread!

941 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:31:56pm
942 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:32:00pm

re: #932 nyc redneck

Any early word on the projected result?

943 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:32:38pm

re: #919 taxfreekiller

So true! Diseases that we eradicated are now being brought forth again by those who a) haven't been privy to vaccinations and b) do not have the required medical testing before being allowed into this country. Spot on TFK!

944 Gus  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:32:52pm

re: #928 J.D.

Yes, and the skewered her in the MSM.

I missed it during the campaign but just last week I found out she had a stroke in 2004.

945 mattm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:32:56pm

OT

0bamas unfavorable polling continues is steady ascent

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

RCP average 61/32.

946 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:32:58pm

re: #929 Occasional Reader

"Evolution"? You believe in that nonsense?

insofar as it applies to me personally....I was not grey haired five years ago...what gives?

947 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:06pm

re: #936 Wilderstad

True, but the down side is still Cancer

948 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:09pm

re: #910 Kenneth

#675 Iron Fist

Margaret Sanger was the pro-eugenics promoter of birth control. She wanted to sterilize negros and "other social degenerates". The Nazis modelled their theories on her work. The modern feminist Left idolizes her.

She was a deeply nasty person, and yes, she does get promoted as an absolute saint for her work in birth control. Her work was important, it was translated into Yiddish and Italian and a dozen other languages and passed illegally between women, but her surviving reputation is far too sterling.

949 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:12pm

re: #938 Salamantis

I'm assuming your sarc tag is understood.

My grandfather was not a monkey!

/

/really necessary?

950 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:32pm

re: #902 UberInfidel67


If you are not Jewish or Islamic it's a hygeine thing. I think it's probably correct,
but re: #928 J.D.

Yes, and the skewered her in the MSM.

Cindy would have made a fine First Lady. Those trashers should be caned.
And the other one ? Remember her ? Don't we need someone to show up in Chris Dodd's office and smile and tell him that his day is over ?
Wow and I had JUST gotten over it.

951 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:33pm

re: #944 Gus 802

I missed it during the campaign but just last week I found out she had a stroke in 2004.

I did not know that.
Sorry to hear about it.

952 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:48pm

What pisses me off to no end are alla those puritanical religious groups that are urging their flock not to allow their daughters to receive the HPV vaccination, on the grounds that it is short-circuiting an avenue for divine retribution for promiscuity.

953 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:51pm

This makes me very, very angry. Because it's just stupid and unnecessary.

954 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:33:54pm

re: #919 taxfreekiller

of some note:

The open borders are open to each and every third world disease known to man, many of them we had wiped out and no longer needed or did vaccinate against, now "We the People" are unprotected from it all.

Some were around 20,000,00 or more roming about.

TFK speaks the truth. My ex-wife, wife of 13 years, works for public health care in a TB clinic, and TB is now become a real problem again, and the percentage of the cases are found in illegal aliens.

No joke, not anecdotal, not racist, just plain facts.

955 mattm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:34:02pm

re: #932 nyc redneck

i voted for jim tedisco today. i am registered to vote upstate.
it is incredible the amt. of garbage the o machine has sent out to malign
tedisco.
i got 6 glossy smear flyers in the mail today. sleazy shit.
o really wants his hand picked candidate to win.
of course because he wants to look powerful and influential.
he might succeed.
but i i'm so hoping he gets a slap down.

We are all hoping he gets a smack down, now and a big one in 2010.

956 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:34:16pm

re: #945 mattm

OT

0bamas unfavorable polling continues is steady ascent

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

RCP average 61/32.

if I stand on my head, will this make sense. . .is it that they are going up in being unpopular?

958 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:34:25pm
959 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:34:31pm

re: #942 Lincolntf

Any early word on the projected result?

the polls didn't close until 9p.m.
so the counting is going on.

960 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:01pm

re: #946 albusteve

insofar as it applies to me personally....I was not grey haired five years ago...what gives?

You're adapting to your environment, like those moths in England!

961 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:24pm

re: #954 Walter L. Newton

TFK speaks the truth. My ex-wife, wife of 13 years, works for public health care in a TB clinic, and TB is now become a real problem again, and the percentage of the cases are found in illegal aliens.

No joke, not anecdotal, not racist, just plain facts.

TFK is a sage.

962 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:25pm

re: #958 buzzsawmonkey

Do people who won't vaccinate their children get shots for their pets?

Don't need to..All pets go to heaven

963 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:29pm

re: #952 Salamantis

What pisses me off to no end are alla those puritanical religious groups that are urging their flock not to allow their daughters to receive the HPV vaccination, on the grounds that it is short-circuiting an avenue for divine retribution for promiscuity.

That just infuriates me.

964 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:33pm

re: #952 Salamantis

What pisses me off to no end are alla those puritanical religious groups that are urging their flock not to allow their daughters to receive the HPV vaccination, on the grounds that it is short-circuiting an avenue for divine retribution for promiscuity.

That's beyond idiotic. It doesn't mean the girls are going to run right out and have lots of unprotected sex.

965 kynna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:37pm

re: #904 DisturbedEma

When students of mine used to talk about SANGER, in glowing terms. . .I had to shudder- the information they were getting in history class was sooooo bad

I know. It's really hard to keep up with. Last year Christiane Amanpour was on the list.

966 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:41pm

re: #959 nyc redneck

What were the polls like prior to today? Close?

967 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:35:41pm

re: #950 Jimash

Cindy would have made a fine First Lady.

She sure would have! Terrible, isn't it, when someone who has done so much good can't get a kind word? Disgusting.

968 Gus  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:36:05pm

re: #951 J.D.

I did not know that.
Sorry to hear about it.

Yeah. I know that makes me think about the what ifs coming from the Obama/Democratic camp had the shoe been on the other foot.

This is the entry from Wiki:

In April 2004, McCain suffered a near-fatal stroke caused by high blood pressure,[43][58] although she was still able to attend some events.[30] After several months of physical therapy to overcome her leg and arm limitations, she made a mostly full recovery, although she still suffered from some short-term memory loss and difficulties in writing.[43] She owns a home in Coronado, California, next to the Hotel del Coronado;[53] her family had vacationed in Coronado growing up, and she has gone there for recuperation and family get-togethers.[53] She or her family own other residential and commercial real estate in California, Arizona and Virginia[28] and, including rental properties, McCain herself owns ten homes and part of three office complexes.[54][59][60] She is an amateur pilot and race car driver.[13]

969 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:36:10pm
970 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:36:25pm

re: #946 albusteve

insofar as it applies to me personally....I was not grey haired five years ago...what gives?

Have you had an vaccinations recently?

971 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:36:26pm
972 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:36:36pm

re: #950 Jimash

No. I was taught that it was God's law. And that is from a Catholic perspective.

973 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:36:40pm

re: #899 alegrias

* * * *
Thank you Avanti for posting this New York congressional race thingy. I've been nagging New Yorkers all day to vote, and it's still to close to call eh? May the Tedisco Republican win, is my fervent wish.

No problem, looks close, but Tedisco has the early lead.

974 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:37:03pm

re: #887 USBeast

Yes. Sharia CIVIL law has no place in Western democracies (but it's not because "they do the stoning of women!" thing). Sharia needs to be opposed on other grounds (such as the disadvantages to which women -- especially immigrant women -- would face if put under such a regime, etc.)

975 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:37:28pm
976 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:37:29pm

re: #969 buzzsawmonkey

And their kids don't?

Remember that terrifying woman with the PhD in anti-evolutionary studies? She certainly didn't seem to think so.

977 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:37:55pm

re: #973 avanti

No problem, looks close, but Tedisco has the early lead.

Not if ACORN/THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY has anything to say about it.

978 VioletTiger  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:01pm

re: #954 Walter L. Newton

TFK speaks the truth. My ex-wife, wife of 13 years, works for public health care in a TB clinic, and TB is now become a real problem again, and the percentage of the cases are found in illegal aliens.

No joke, not anecdotal, not racist, just plain facts.

isn't there a very virulent form of TB around now, one resistant to treatment?

979 MNsnowlizard  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:11pm

People who dismiss the wonder of science irritate me. I am a conservative chick in a liberal state and science saved my butt twice last year! I had an aortic valve replaced last February, got better and went back to work in April. On May 2nd, I got sicker than a damn dog. Went back to the hospital where I had my surgery and I had cardiac effusion. That night the doctor, a genius in my opinion, took almost a liter of blood and fluid from around my heart. Spent the next 11 days in the hospital with a catheter in my chest getting fluid drained from around my heart. I may be a conservative and all I can say is God Bless the scientists. If not for them, a lot more people in this world would not be here.

980 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:15pm

re: #164 Sharmuta

You don't know shit. There is no evidence to support your theory. However, many hypotheses are being tested. If they should ever find a link between autism and vaccinations, then I will apologize to you, but until that day, fuck you.

That was uncalled for...

981 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:15pm

re: #976 SanFranciscoZionist

Remember that terrifying woman with the PhD in anti-evolutionary studies? She certainly didn't seem to think so.

Georgia Purdom.

982 Emerald  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:15pm

re: #43 zombie

Last time I said this here, a lot of people jumped down my throat, but I'm going to say it again anyway:

Autism is a real disease. The people who have it really do have it.

However, it is very rare.

Thousands of kids are being falsely diagnosed with autism or semi-autism these days, both to please the pharmaceutical companies, and to reassure the moms who can't cope with their children who are not acting entirely "normally."

But as soon as anyone points out that autism is being over-diagnosed, they're accused of being insensitive. People these days apparently crave any kind of medical "explanation" for the difficulties of parenting a problem child.

So they glom on to this vaccine hoax as a way of absolving themselves of any guilt.

Let's help the real autistics. Let's even help the "problem kids" in whatever way we can. But let's not saddle them with an inaccurate medical label. And let's definitely not embrace craziness in the process.


Aren't school districts awarded extra money for every "sick" child they diagnose? I've had teachers tell me the school tries to label every kid who acts up for this reason - plus no one wants to tell a parent that their kid is a brat.

My s-i-l is one of the people you describe. She was so convinced her son was gifted that she dragged him around to different doctors until one said he had Aspergers to explain why he wasn't doing great in school. He doesn't need the special tutor he gets now, it's not helping his performance any because he's just an average kid, but it is taking a resource away from a kid who could really use it.

983 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:17pm

Night all, and my apologies for the hyperemotion. . .

984 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:29pm
985 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:47pm

re: #975 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, anybody know the current news on the Franken/Coleman grudge match?

or the Churchill trial?

986 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:53pm

re: #968 Gus 802

I'm sorry to hear about that. You mean to say she's human?
/
I just started on blood pressure medication a couple of weeks ago.
Good for me!

987 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:57pm

re: #898 Irish Rose

Sorry, no offense intended.

You didn't say anything wrong, in fact I don't think there's a bad bone in your body Rose. Now I'm no doctor, but walk on any school grounds anywhere in America and you'll find a full special-needs classroom.

Alot of kids have been hurt and the explosion of special needs kids with Autism and learning disabilities is no co-incidence. Now my kid is one of them and yeah, I think in 1995 there was "something" in his vaccination that hurt my boy terribly.

988 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:38:58pm

re: #975 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, anybody know the current news on the Franken/Coleman grudge match?

[Link: www.politico.com...]

989 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:00pm

re: #892 kynna

My daughter is doing Environmental Science at Trent and she rants and rages about the eeeevil DDT. I don't know enough to try to counter her arguments, so if anyone could enlighten me I'd appreciate it.

I have always said that green-piece and greenieism is a racist philosophy.

They don't care that their principals cause the death of millions of black children every year.

990 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:10pm

re: #978 VioletTiger

isn't there a very virulent form of TB around now, one resistant to treatment?

Yep.

991 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:24pm

re: #931 albusteve

hold onto your seats...word has just come down that the next threat will involve the history of the Rolling Stones...

I saw them the first time they appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show. I still remember my mother's comment about Mick Jagger.."He looks like he hasn't bathed in a week."

992 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:25pm

re: #980 grahamski

That was uncalled for...

yes it was...

993 Gus  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:28pm

re: #986 J.D.

I'm sorry to hear about that. You mean to say she's human?
/
I just started on blood pressure medication a couple of weeks ago.
Good for me!

I need to something about that on my end. It's pretty high.

994 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:43pm

re: #990 Walter L. Newton

Do we get a new episode of Lost this week?

995 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:47pm

re: #966 Lincolntf

What were the polls like prior to today? Close?

murphy was given a slight lead.
i just hope the republicans came out.
the problem is the district has been tainted w/ lib. new yorkers
moving in.
the jerks should just keep going to long island.

996 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:39:56pm

re: #975 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, anybody know the current news on the Franken/Coleman grudge match?

I just heard tonight...they're going to do a recount.

/really

997 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:40:10pm

re: #981 Salamantis

Georgia Purdom.


Her. Yes. Thanks.

998 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:40:11pm

re: #980 grahamski

Going to chide the other party, are you?

999 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:40:22pm

re: #985 albusteve

or the Churchill trial?

Still going on. Jury has passed some questions on to witnesses and it appears that the jury is leading for Churchill.

1000 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:40:42pm

re: #991 Bobblehead

I saw them the first time they appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show. I still remember my mother's comment about Mick Jagger.."He looks like he hasn't bathed in a week."

most likely true...not really, they were getting some royal treatment by then

1001 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:40:47pm
1002 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:40:48pm

re: #969 buzzsawmonkey

And their kids don't?

It's probably just me..but I figure if there really is a real heaven, there will be a lot of kids there but not many adults.

1003 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:40:54pm

re: #973 avanti

No problem, looks close, but Tedisco has the early lead.

* * **
Hope you're right! Though you swing left. But it looks like some polling places hadn't reported yet. Thank you again Avanti for posting the polling results link.

1004 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:41:03pm

re: #979 MNsnowlizard

Another good ending.

Glad to hear it!

1005 BlueCanuck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:41:11pm

re: #949 Occasional Reader

My grandfather was not a monkey!

/

/really necessary?

We are APES not monkeys, monkeys are lower on the evolutionary ladder..... ;)

/

1006 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:41:54pm

re: #994 Killgore Trout

Do we get a new episode of Lost this week?

"Whatever Happened, Happened" - Kate goes to extreme measures to save Ben's life when Jack refuses to help. Meanwhile, Kate begins to tell the truth about the lie in order to protect Aaron, on "Lost," WEDNESDAY, APRIL 1 (9:00-10:02 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network.

1007 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:41:59pm
1008 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:42:23pm

re: #977 Walter L. Newton


Sonofabitch. 50-50 with about 50% of the vote in, that's pretty damn close. It's close enough that this is exactly the type of race that they could steal.

1009 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:42:47pm

re: #918 Van Helsing

Yes. Canada has a civil law system -- functioning perfectly well. (the Islamists who wished to bring in Sharia law, at the provincial level, argued that the family courts are "too crowded", and it "takes too long" -- so then they wanted to have "special" Muslim officiated "courts" which would adjudicate things such as inheritance, child support, divorce, etc. -- these would trump the secular, civil, family-law courts...there was never any clear indication about how they'd choose who'd be "the judge"; how disputes with a decision would be handled; appeals? etc., etc., etc.)

1010 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:42:48pm

re: #999 Walter L. Newton

Still going on. Jury has passed some questions on to witnesses and it appears that the jury is leading for Churchill.

thanks...I googled the Denver Post the other day and there was no word...actually I think this is a landmark trial of sorts...maybe not

1011 MNsnowlizard  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:42:49pm

re: #1004 J.D.

Thanks! I am here and I am going to make the most of my life. Well that, and as I have said to friends, "Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I will take over." :)

1012 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:43:32pm

re: #982 Emerald
Ha! When my kids were in high school...a few years ago...they tried to have everyone who was a C average student labeled as "special needs" That meant more money for the district!

1013 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:05pm

re: #956 DisturbedEma

if I stand on my head, will this make sense. . .is it that they are going up in being unpopular?

61 % approve, but the disapproval number when up a bit as the undecided moved to disapproval. The approval is actually down to 60 today, but has been bouncing between 60-63 % To sum it up, no real movement yet.

1014 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:09pm

Not that anybody cares anymore but the national Tea Party Blog is run by a Paulian......
Lumping Patriots and Nazis Together?
Written by Eric Odom

If you follow the links you'll find that Nazis/white supremicists are getting into the Tea Party act.

Why doesn't Eric Odom mind that this is happening? He's a Paulian...
Ron Paul is making the constitution “cool” again

Yes, there are Stormfront threads about the Tea parties too.

1015 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:14pm

re: #1007 buzzsawmonkey

Given the way some of the children I have seen recently are being raised, that sounds like Hell.

today, getting on a streetcar, some kid was going to shove past the people who'd been waiting in line. I stopped her.

Her father told me I was being rude. I pointed out that people had been standing in line, waiting, and she proposed to shove past them, which is worse. I'm bloody tired of people always excusing their brats.

1016 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:21pm

re: #909 Occasional Reader

Actually, she was Albanian.

* * * *
I KNEW that, OR. I was being obtuse about Bangladeshi.

My grandmother was from the medieval walled city of Avila, from whence came the REAL original Mother Teresa de Avila of Castilla, Spain.

1017 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:32pm

re: #1010 albusteve

thanks...I googled the Denver Post the other day and there was no word...actually I think this is a landmark trial of sorts...maybe not

Go here at 3:00 mountain time any day...

[Link: www.khow.com...]

Dan Caplis and Craig Silverman talk show. They are both lawyers and have covered this guy for years. Silverman is spending a lot of time at the trial.

1018 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:39pm

re: #987 Maximu§

You didn't say anything wrong, in fact I don't think there's a bad bone in your body Rose. Now I'm no doctor, but walk on any school grounds anywhere in America and you'll find a full special-needs classroom.

Alot of kids have been hurt and the explosion of special needs kids with Autism and learning disabilities is no co-incidence. Now my kid is one of them and yeah, I think in 1995 there was "something" in his vaccination that hurt my boy terribly.

The problem is that if you're wrong - and the science does not support you - and you advise others not to vaccinate their children against disease, and they take your advice, and their children contract those diseases against which they were not vaccinated, and suffer permanently debilitating or fatal consequences because of it, then you have been a cause of grave and real damage to those children - damage that you will never have to suffer the consequences of. But they, and their parents, will.

1019 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:41pm

re: #947 FightingBack

The downside is abnormal cells, that will be caught by appropriate screening at regular intervals.

1020 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:42pm

re: #993 Gus 802

I need to something about that on my end. It's pretty high.

Well, we took my mother-in-law to lunch with her former college roommate whose husband is having dialysis every week...twice, I think he said.
His arm...where they hook him up...oh, dear.
He said the reason they gave him for his kidney problems were that he had diabetes and high blood pressure. That did it for me.

Go. First thing tomorrow.

1021 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:44:54pm

Clean pistol, or drink Bailey's and blog.

Hmmm.

1022 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:45:05pm
1023 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:45:18pm

re: #974 J.S.

Yes. Sharia CIVIL law has no place in Western democracies (but it's not because "they do the stoning of women!" thing). Sharia needs to be opposed on other grounds (such as the disadvantages to which women -- especially immigrant women -- would face if put under such a regime, etc.)

Okay, so how do you sell that argument to Muslim immigrants who insist that Allah's law supersedes the law created by mere humans?

1024 jorline  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:45:22pm

re: #952 Salamantis

What pisses me off to no end are alla those puritanical religious groups that are urging their flock not to allow their daughters to receive the HPV vaccination, on the grounds that it is short-circuiting an avenue for divine retribution for promiscuity.

Mom's plea deal includes 'resurrection clause'

Ramkissoon and the others are accused of denying Javon food after the group's leader, a 40-year-old woman who goes by the name Queen Antoinette, decreed the boy was a demon since he refused to say "amen" after meals, Silverman said.

The child was one.

1025 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:45:29pm

re: #215 Sharmuta

Funny how people with no degree in a scientific field think they're experts.

And what exactly are your qualifications?

1026 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:45:32pm
1027 angst  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:45:34pm
You prefer Genital Warts? The vaccine is 100% (!) effective against the the most common cause of Cervical Cancer. The first time that I gave this vaccine to a patient (I was in the Delivery Room at her birth, 12 years ago)) I trembled with joy.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite believe this. It is not 100% effective- it hits the most common of the viruses but not all of them- it even says so on the package insert which is why Pap smears are still required even if a woman receives it.

As for administering it 12 years ago- how? Were you involved in the R & D? And if you were, how was it ethical to give it to a baby?

1028 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:45:39pm

re: #1017 Walter L. Newton

Go here at 3:00 mountain time any day...

[Link: www.khow.com...]

Dan Caplis and Craig Silverman talk show. They are both lawyers and have covered this guy for years. Silverman is spending a lot of time at the trial.

cool it's booked, thanks again

1029 VioletTiger  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:09pm

re: #1021 Occasional Reader

Clean pistol, or drink Bailey's and blog.

Hmmm.


I don't suppose it would be wise to do all three, would it?
Ah, do the Bailey's blog thing. Pistol will still be around tomorrow.

1030 ladycatnip  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:12pm

#674 DisturbedEma

You are exactly right. I have a feeling a parent would rather deal with a disease than a neurological disorder. I knew a ton of homeschoolers (this is not a blanket indictment against them), and many were of the holistic, non-vaccine, homeopathic mentality. One woman was taking her young daughter to a homeopathic doc to help cure her whooping cough. I was floored. But then thought her daughter was most likely not diagnosed correctly.

1031 J.D.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:21pm

re: #1011 MNsnowlizard

:D

1032 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:26pm

re: #1014 Killgore Trout

Not that anybody cares anymore but the national Tea Party Blog is run by a Paulian......
Lumping Patriots and Nazis Together?
Written by Eric Odom

If you follow the links you'll find that Nazis/white supremicists are getting into the Tea Party act.

Why doesn't Eric Odom mind that this is happening? He's a Paulian...
Ron Paul is making the constitution “cool” again

Yes, there are Stormfront threads about the Tea parties too.

I will say it again (and again). If ANYONE has every posed the question "how could Nazism rise to the level it did in the 30's" then PLEASE, pay attention this time.

There will probably be a new name, but it's the same old racism.

1033 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:30pm

re: #1015 Dianna

today, getting on a streetcar, some kid was going to shove past the people who'd been waiting in line. I stopped her.

Her father told me I was being rude. I pointed out that people had been standing in line, waiting, and she proposed to shove past them, which is worse. I'm bloody tired of people always excusing their brats.

You need to meet my nephew as a remedy. The kid is just... amazing. Gives you hope for the future.

1034 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:30pm

re: #1015 Dianna

I stopped a 2 year old boy in my office; he was hitting his Mother. And he was smirking at me while he did it. The Mother was angry that I intervened.

1035 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:43pm

re: #1021 Occasional Reader

Clean pistol, or drink Bailey's and blog.

Hmmm.

Ah, hang around. The pistol will still be waiting for you tomorrow.

Besides, you need someone to clean guns with. It's a remarkably intimate activity.

1036 UberInfidel67  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:46:46pm

re: #1023 USBeast Tell them to STFU aAND stfd

1037 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:47:03pm

re: #977 Walter L. Newton

Not if ACORN/THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY has anything to say about it.

* * * *
You're right there's still time for dems & ACORN to find bags full of votes--for the Dem candidate-- in people's cars.

1038 Jimash  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:47:20pm

re: #972 UberInfidel67

No. I was taught that it was God's law. And that is from a Catholic perspective.

Cool, I would not have thought that.

1039 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:47:32pm

re: #1016 alegrias

* * * *
I KNEW that, OR. I was being obtuse about Bangladeshi.

My grandmother was from the medieval walled city of Avila, from whence came the REAL original Mother Teresa de Avila of Castilla, Spain.

That's fascinating. Have you ever been there?.. Is there much of the old medieval city left?

1040 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:47:51pm

re: #1022 taxfreekiller

I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but if the R wins I'll allow myself to consider it a slight rebuff of Obama and his slavish Congress.

1041 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:48:06pm

re: #1025 grahamski

Excuse me, did you not come in here and proclaim your credentials? I'm not the one ignoring what actual medical professionals are saying on this subject, so why are you picking a fight with me? Perhaps I should ignore you like others have and you'd respect me more for it?

1042 jorline  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:48:21pm

re: #1024 jorline

The child was one.

Court documents say Ramkissoon joined One Mind Ministries after Javon's birth in 2005. Silverman described her as a petite, soft-spoken woman who rejected her family's Hindu religion, became a devout Christian and wanted to raise her son in that religion. "She didn't want to have to work or go to school. She just wanted to take care of her son, and they offered her all this," he said.


This is not a christian organization...they're a cult.

1043 avanti  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:48:30pm

re: #1022 taxfreekiller

46,600 for the D
46900 for the R

Saratoga County, 15,000 for the R and 11, 000 for the D
only 90 of 188 precincts reporting so far, if that wide a margin
continues in Saratoga County the R wins, pray or drink your choice

Live
here.

1044 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:48:33pm

re: #1029 VioletTiger

I don't suppose it would be wise to do all three, would it?

My personal rule is that as long as I've cleared the weapon before taking even a sip of anything with alcohol in it, there's nothing wrong with enjoying a small drink while cleaning it. And that part, I've already done (the clearing bit).

1045 FightingBack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:48:37pm

re: #1019 Wilderstad

With luck; and an intact medical care delivery industry. Any social disintegration or upheaval can derail this preventive system.

1046 Alberta Oil Peon  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:48:56pm

re: #24 Sharmuta

NO- It's not!

You are quite right. I remember chatting with another Lizard in the Lounge, and she was quite adamant about not vaccinating her kids. Quite impervious to reason.

I wear soft contact lenses, and have done so for years. Initially, I used lens solutions preserved with Thimerosal (which contains mercury), and I developed an allergic reaction to the product, and my eyes would get redder than a baboon's butt. Changed to thimerosal-free products; end of problem.
Having said that, if I needed a vaccination against a particular disease, and the required vaccine contained thimerosal, I'd take the shot, and endure any possible discomfort as a small price to pay for avoiding a nasty disease.

I think this whole phenomenon is driven partly by the abysmal state of science education, and partly as a push-back against pervasive nanny-statism. When you buy a package of darn near anything, and read a label that says: "It has been determined by the State of California that.....has been shown to cause cancer...", it's easy to get cynical.

1047 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:49:10pm

re: #1015 Dianna

I recently saw a guy FREAK OUT on a little 8 year old. The little shit ran up and mouthed off to this guy sitting on a bench, reading his newspaper and (gasp) smoking!

The little shit ran off, crying. I was tempted to buy the guy a drink.

I'm willing to bet that is the last time that little fascist ever tells anyone about the evils of smoking.

1048 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:49:22pm

re: #1033 Occasional Reader

You need to meet my nephew as a remedy. The kid is just... amazing. Gives you hope for the future.

either of my kids would never even consider this type of behavior and not because they didnt have the balls..parents are everything to teens...you simply must grapple them away from the schools and their peers and beat them mercilessly til they get it

1049 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:49:30pm

re: #244 Sharmuta

What I find sad is this is something on which Maximus and I should be able to find some common ground, as we both have loved ones suffering from autism. But instead of desiring clarity and further research on this issue so we can better help and prevent autism, he launches a nasty personal attack simply because I stated a fact- that there is no evidence to suggest vaccinations cause autism. I'm very sorry for anyone who's children are going through this, but clinging to personal hypotheses with no evidence isn't going to prevent or treat autism.

And rather than take the high road, you immediately turned to insults and attacked right back.....a little sanctimonious don't you think?.

1050 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:49:55pm

re: #1044 Occasional Reader

My personal rule is that as long as I've cleared the weapon before taking even a sip of anything with alcohol in it, there's nothing wrong with enjoying a small drink while cleaning it. And that part, I've already done (the clearing bit).

I don't drink when I've got a weapon. Even if I cleared it beforehand.

1051 jcm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:50:07pm

re: #1035 Dianna

Ah, hang around. The pistol will still be waiting for you tomorrow.

Besides, you need someone to clean guns with. It's a remarkably intimate activity.

Don't......
say......
a.....
word......


;-~

1052 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:50:40pm

re: #1048 albusteve

and beat them mercilessly til they get it

Um, you're speaking metaphorically... right?

1053 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:50:49pm

re: #1007 buzzsawmonkey

Given the way some of the children I have seen recently are being raised, that sounds like Hell.

LOL
You know what I'm saying Buzz..God loves Children..Adults..well not so much..

1054 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:50:51pm
1055 Eric Cartman's Conscience  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:50:56pm

This particular issue of autism stems more from the Left's anti-pharmaceutical stance than from the Christian Right. The leading crusader on this issue is...Jenny McCarthy!

...and Don Imus

Really...

1056 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:50:57pm

re: #1023 USBeast

Of course, that's what they'll say (that Allah's laws supersede man-made laws) -- but so what? Western democracies have established ways of doing things -- if you immigrate here you're subject to Western laws, not Islamic laws. And if you want the latter, then go live there.

1057 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:51:12pm

re: #1050 Dianna

I don't drink when I've got a weapon. Even if I cleared it beforehand.

Bah. What could possibly go wro

1058 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:51:21pm

re: #239 NY Nana

Charles,


Mercury has been out of the picture for years..

That is incorrect.

1059 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:51:27pm
1060 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:51:45pm

re: #1052 Occasional Reader

Um, you're speaking metaphorically... right?

I just made that part up to look tough

1061 formercorpsman  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:51:48pm

re: #954 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I can second that.

I am approaching my 20th year in direct healthcare (PA) & witness this myself. We are doing MRSA surveillance with nasal swabs for almost every hospital admission.

As someone who has dealt directly with the pharmacological issues in practice (vioxx) there is some justification with healthy concern over what is out there.

There is no reason, no reason at all, to not have kids vaccinated against the routine stuff we have nearly eradicated only to find a resurgence because of this insanity.

Thanks for posting that.

1062 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:52:07pm

re: #1049 grahamski

And rather than take the high road, you immediately turned to insults and attacked right back.....a little sanctimonious don't you think?.

I notice that you have a shitload of criticism for the responder, and not a single shred of it for the initiator.

That fact alone renders your criticism biased and unworthy of serious consideration.

1063 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:52:23pm

re: #982 Emerald

Aren't school districts awarded extra money for every "sick" child they diagnose? I've had teachers tell me the school tries to label every kid who acts up for this reason - plus no one wants to tell a parent that their kid is a brat.

My s-i-l is one of the people you describe. She was so convinced her son was gifted that she dragged him around to different doctors until one said he had Aspergers to explain why he wasn't doing great in school. He doesn't need the special tutor he gets now, it's not helping his performance any because he's just an average kid, but it is taking a resource away from a kid who could really use it.

There is federal funding distributed for students with learning disabilities, but it's not as simple (or helpful) as the school getting more money for each child diagnosed. Also, ADHD, and AFAIK Aspergers are not on the list of designated LDs. My experience as a teacher has been that schools actually fight not to designate a kid with a disability, because once the kid is diagnosed, we are required to follow the IEP regardless of whether we can afford it or not.

Sadly, Latino kids got hit by this hard in one of the schools I used to work in. It's easy to make a kid 'bilingual' and stick them in an ESL class, it's hard to make a kid dyslexic. And immigrant parents are often too scared, uneducated, or just vague about what's out there to be effective advocates for their kids.

And then, there's the parent who is determined to get a diagnosis, the diagnosis they want, come hell or high water. (Your SIL's type.) I had one mother last year who...OMG. The IEP meetings were like halftime at the Thirty Years' War.

1064 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:52:26pm

re: #1049 grahamski

You are GAZE worthy. Go after the people who reject science instead, huh?

1065 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:52:44pm

re: #1057 Occasional Reader

Bah. What could possibly go wro

dramatic exit bro

1066 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:53:29pm

re: #1049 grahamski

And rather than take the high road, you immediately turned to insults and attacked right back.....a little sanctimonious don't you think?.

I missed the start of this quarrel, but I know Sharmuta quite well. She does not tend to be sanctimonious.

1067 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:53:40pm

re: #1051 jcm

Don't......
say......
a.....
word......

;-~

You mean about, say, Dianna lubricating her male's full-length guide rod?

That sort of thing?

1068 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:54:01pm

re: #1032 Walter L. Newton

The Tea Party crowd just doesn't seem to mind. It's a shame.

1069 Occasional Reader  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:54:16pm

re: #1065 albusteve

dramatic exit bro

I can be found at the Castle arrrrrrrgh

1070 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:54:23pm

re: #1039 Bobblehead

That's fascinating. Have you ever been there?.. Is there much of the old medieval city left?

* * **
Yes, the entire walled city remains. I was there in 2000 in October, a wonderful time of year to visit Spain, before Zapatero the socialist was elected.

There has also been much research into the city's Sephardic jewish past. It was believed Mother Teresa's family was originally jewish but converted at some point. It was a wonderful place and I recommend visiting. AFTER the Socialists leave office.

1071 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:54:52pm

The first responsibility of parents is to do everything possible to keep their children safe. I can't fathom the logic of people who think the best way to do that is to prevent them from getting vaccines. Are you kidding me? Thats akin to never letting them eat fruits or vegetables. After all, the child might ingest minute traces of pesticide residue.

1072 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:54:53pm

re: #1045 FightingBack

Granted but in that case food is going to be problem as well, and no amount vaccination will prevent starvation, let alone cure any type of cancer.

1073 Emerald  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:55:12pm

re: #276 Maximu§

I'm outta here, but until your a parent and you have raised children.....its better to STFU on subjects like this, because you really are out of your league. I bet everyone who dinged me down has no kids.

Watch your precious baby suffer after one of those Mercury soaked shots runs through his system and than come talk to me.

I feel sorry for your suffering, and no one put a parent who has been through what you've been through can truly understand the pain.

However, that does not make you a medical expert and it gives you no right to dictate who is allowed to voice an opinion.

1074 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:55:13pm

re: #1068 Killgore Trout

The Tea Party crowd just doesn't seem to mind. It's a shame.

A lot of us who were considering attending a local tea party are quite disturbed.

Not that it couldn't be predicted, though.

1075 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:55:55pm

re: #1054 buzzsawmonkey

The little shit said, " You should not be smoking." Dude put down his paper and stood up and just screamed at the little fascist, "Get outta here and mind your own damn business, little man!"

The little bastard jumped up and ran away, crying.

I wonder where it's sperm donor or womb were.

1076 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:56:02pm

re: #1070 alegrias

* * **
Yes, the entire walled city remains. I was there in 2000 in October, a wonderful time of year to visit Spain, before Zapatero the socialist was elected.

There has also been much research into the city's Sephardic jewish past. It was believed Mother Teresa's family was originally jewish but converted at some point. It was a wonderful place and I recommend visiting. AFTER the Socialists leave office.

Saint Teresa, surely?

Of the really embarrassing visions?

1077 brent  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:56:19pm

my favorite response to all the scientific studies disproving a link between autism and vaccinations -

"Well, who do you think it is doing all the studies? Doctors and drug companies"

It makes so much sense, I just marvel I didn't think of that first. Oh yeah, I am not batsh*t crazy.

1078 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:56:46pm

re: #1009 J.S.

Yes. Canada has a civil law system -- functioning perfectly well. (the Islamists who wished to bring in Sharia law, at the provincial level, argued that the family courts are "too crowded", and it "takes too long" -- so then they wanted to have "special" Muslim officiated "courts" which would adjudicate things such as inheritance, child support, divorce, etc. -- these would trump the secular, civil, family-law courts...there was never any clear indication about how they'd choose who'd be "the judge"; how disputes with a decision would be handled; appeals? etc., etc., etc.)

OK--here's what I don't get. There are a bazillion batei din--courts of Jewish law--around the world. They do such things as handle divorces, business disputes, all kinds of family business. Many frum Jews prefer to go through them first, or instead of a secular court.

Are these folks suggesting that Sharia courts would be PART of the Canadian legal system, instead of existing separately from it as a resource for the religious?

1079 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:57:01pm

re: #1068 Killgore Trout

The Tea Party crowd just doesn't seem to mind. It's a shame.

how do you know?...and what can they do about it?....sock em?

1080 Wilderstad  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:57:17pm

re: #1072 Wilderstad

The facts are a small number of women in the U.S will come down with cervical cancer. Of those, most of them will NOT have been screened via pap smear.
Even with the HPV vaccine pap smears are still required.

1081 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:58:30pm

re: #1049 grahamski

And rather than take the high road, you immediately turned to insults and attacked right back.....a little sanctimonious don't you think?.

Who the hell elected you a referee? You have nothing to contribute to this discussion and I'm pretty sure nobody sent you a check this month to moderate..Hush up.. Take a step back..no offense..

1082 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:58:41pm

re: #1079 albusteve

You're right, I don't know. They can't do anything about it. Just carry on. Don't mind me.

1083 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:59:28pm

re: #1027 angst

I'm sorry, but I don't quite believe this. It is not 100% effective- it hits the most common of the viruses but not all of them- it even says so on the package insert which is why Pap smears are still required even if a woman receives it.

As for administering it 12 years ago- how? Were you involved in the R & D? And if you were, how was it ethical to give it to a baby?

Just because it isn't perfect, we shouldn't use it?

And he didn't say he administered it twelve years ago, he said he was present at the child's birth twelve years ago, and then vaccinated her recently. If I read correctly.

1084 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:59:42pm
1085 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:59:44pm

re: #1076 Dianna

Saint Teresa, surely?

Of the really embarrassing visions?

* * * *
Not Catholic, sorry, don't know much else about her.

1086 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 6:59:45pm
1087 Natasha  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:00:23pm

re: #952 Salamantis

What pisses me off to no end are alla those puritanical religious groups that are urging their flock not to allow their daughters to receive the HPV vaccination, on the grounds that it is short-circuiting an avenue for divine retribution for promiscuity.

That is truly some twisted, sick, vicious thinking on the part of the members of these groups. Vengeful and spiteful little creatures.

1088 ladycatnip  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:00:35pm

1034 FightingBack

I stopped a 2 year old boy in my office; he was hitting his Mother. And he was smirking at me while he did it. The Mother was angry that I intervened.

Being a parent should involve a licensing process. Parents who excuse their kids' behavior will eventually run into a brick wall called the rude awakening when said children enter puberty.

1089 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:00:35pm

re: #1056 J.S.

Of course, that's what they'll say (that Allah's laws supersede man-made laws) -- but so what? Western democracies have established ways of doing things -- if you immigrate here you're subject to Western laws, not Islamic laws. And if you want the latter, then go live there.

I agree entirely. Unfortunately, the people objecting to our "established ways of doing things" don't.

1090 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:00:55pm

re: #1070 alegrias

* * **
Yes, the entire walled city remains. I was there in 2000 in October, a wonderful time of year to visit Spain, before Zapatero the socialist was elected.

There has also been much research into the city's Sephardic jewish past. It was believed Mother Teresa's family was originally jewish but converted at some point. It was a wonderful place and I recommend visiting. AFTER the Socialists leave office.

Many Jews converted rather than leave Spain during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella.

Do you still have family in Spain?

1091 Irish Rose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:01:11pm

New thread....

1092 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:01:22pm

re: #352 rexfromars

Californians are idiots. That's all I've got to say.

Ahhh, generalizations....I have three words for you... Pot, Kettle, Black.

1093 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:01:37pm

re: #1086 taxfreekiller

games going on in Columbia County NY
boxes not showing up
the count is being held off for some reason
we suspect the D's know Saratoga County will be big for the R
so they are holding some boxes out to stuff at the end

they only win when they cheat

* * * *
thanks for following this story, TFK!
Cheaters never prosper--look what they've done in 70 days to our economy.

1094 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:02:04pm

re: #1086 taxfreekiller

games going on in Columbia County NY
boxes not showing up
the count is being held off for some reason
we suspect the D's know Saratoga County will be big for the R
so they are holding some boxes out to stuff at the end

they only win when they cheat

fckers.
columbia co. is full of moonbats, now.

1095 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:02:18pm
1096 Eric Cartman's Conscience  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:02:22pm

If we had only fed the newborn child the mother's fried placenta early during infancy we might have defeated autism and promoted “healthy vitamin awareness”.

In the meantime – those nutty Christians are at it again!:

[Link: www.knoxnews.com...]

1097 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:02:36pm

re: #1090 Bobblehead

Many Jews converted rather than leave Spain during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella.

Do you still have family in Spain?

* * * *
Yes! Most are elderly now however.

1098 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:02:40pm

re: #1044 Occasional Reader

My personal rule is that as long as I've cleared the weapon before taking even a sip of anything with alcohol in it, there's nothing wrong with enjoying a small drink while cleaning it. And that part, I've already done (the clearing bit).

When I was a toddler, I used to be in charge of clearning my dad's service revolver. (He cleared it, obviously.)

But a toddler will brush away endlessly, and not get bored, and the police academy was very strict about cleanliness of firearms.

When we weren't playing with it, the gun was locked away. I'm thirty-five now, and I feel uneasy about touching my dad's gun case, no matter how rationally I may remind myself that the NEVER TOUCH rule went out of effect about twenty years ago.

1099 Emerald  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:02:43pm

re: #353 kynna

I already said it, but because you're being rude to Sharmuta, I'll say it again.

Big Legal is also doing studies. There is a gold mine to be made if they find something. They haven't or they'd have used them. Not even a nibble they can manipulate.

HELLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! right back atcha.

Personally, I'd trust the results from the scientific-based pharmaceuticals over the greed-driven legal studies any day of the week.

1100 USBeast  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:02:55pm

Gotta get up and do it again.

Nighty night.

1101 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:04:45pm

re: #1042 jorline

This is not a christian organization...they're a cult.

Concur.

1102 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:04:58pm

re: #1075 WhiteRasta

The little shit said, " You should not be smoking." Dude put down his paper and stood up and just screamed at the little fascist, "Get outta here and mind your own damn business, little man!"

The little bastard jumped up and ran away, crying.

I wonder where it's sperm donor or womb were.


Good lesson to child, no harm done.

1103 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:05:05pm

re: #1090 Bobblehead

Many Jews converted rather than leave Spain during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella.

Do you still have family in Spain?

* * * *
In fact, one of my mother's elderly cousins who still lives in the village near Avila, had polio as a young girl.

She has been to Lourdes in France many times with Catholic groups to pray for a miracle to cure her of polio.

VACCINES are a gift from God! We are so fortunate to have this knowledge.

1104 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:05:23pm

re: #1018 Salamantis

The problem is that if you're wrong - and the science does not support you - and you advise others not to vaccinate their children against disease, and they take your advice, and their children contract those diseases against which they were not vaccinated, and suffer permanently debilitating or fatal consequences because of it, then you have been a cause of grave and real damage to those children - damage that you will never have to suffer the consequences of. But they, and their parents, will.

Not so, I could care less if "Science" dumps a truckload of proof in front of me on my driveway, I saw it happen to my own boy with my own eyes.

I wouldn't tell parents to not vaccinate their children, but they should research whats getting injected into them beforehand..

1105 WhiteRasta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:06:10pm

re: #1095 buzzsawmonkey

Not any more!

1106 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:06:27pm

re: #1077 brent

When a person is a genuine conspiracy nut there is no convincing them otherwise. They always, always will claim that any evidence that apparently debunks their conspiracy theory actually reinforces the theory. Follow the pretzel logic if you like. But it never leads anywhere.

I think the base of CT popularity is that people have a desire to feel smarter than the average Joe and when they subscribe to CT's it means they have private knowledge that average people don't have.

1107 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:08:02pm

re: #1104 Maximu§

Not so, I could care less if "Science" dumps a truckload of proof in front of me on my driveway, I saw it happen to my own boy with my own eyes.

I wouldn't tell parents to not vaccinate their children, but they should research whats getting injected into them beforehand..

As I said before, right before you told me to shut up:

re: #329 Salamantis

Yeah, but you didn't watch WHY it was happening before your very eyes; that part you assumed. And, according to all the empirical evidence, assumed wrongly, simply due to a happenstance temporal coincidence with vaccination that you misinterpreted as causality.

1108 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:08:56pm
1109 Bobblehead  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:09:01pm

re: #1103 alegrias

* * * *
In fact, one of my mother's elderly cousins who still lives in the village near Avila, had polio as a young girl.

She has been to Lourdes in France many times with Catholic groups to pray for a miracle to cure her of polio.

VACCINES are a gift from God! We are so fortunate to have this knowledge.

Oh yes, we are!

1110 Eric Cartman's Conscience  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:10:10pm

re: #1066 Dianna

I missed the start of this quarrel, but I know Sharmuta quite well. She does not tend to be sanctimonious.

I don't know about that. The term “Sharmuta” is sometimes used independently at AceofSpades as both an adjective and a descriptive noun to indicate "one who disagrees for the sake of disagreement" or "one who incessantly echoes LGF orthodoxy".

1111 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:13:05pm
1112 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:13:42pm

re: #1110 Eric Cartman's Conscience

I don't know about that. The term “Sharmuta” is sometimes used independently at AceofSpades as both an adjective and a descriptive noun to indicate "one who disagrees for the sake of disagreement" or "one who incessantly echoes LGF orthodoxy".

Sharmuta is an Arabic insult meaning "whore", generally used in the Middle East. Most Arab linguists agree, however, that it is of non-Arabic/Semitic origin.

Retrieved from "[Link: en.wiktionary.org...]

1113 angst  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:16:55pm

re: #1083 SanFranciscoZionist

Just because it isn't perfect, we shouldn't use it?

And he didn't say he administered it twelve years ago, he said he was present at the child's birth twelve years ago, and then vaccinated her recently. If I read correctly.

Nope, I never said not to use it. I just don't like folks misrepresenting the facts- for one thing, it's dangerous to do so in this particular case.

I cannot tell when he said he gave the vaccine, but that's the way I read it.

1114 Sheepdogess  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:17:12pm

What a lovely thread.

1115 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:17:22pm
1116 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:18:33pm

re: #808 FightingBack

There is thimersol-free vaccine for infants.

Correct, I already said that.

1117 Emerald  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:18:45pm

re: #1063 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks for the info. Although I heard it from teachers, let's just say they weren't people I'd trust to deliver a simple message correctly.

1118 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:20:12pm

More on Vaccination

and more with audio and video links to the right

Autism's False Prophets

1119 Maximu§  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:21:07pm

re: #1107 Salamantis

As I said before, right before you told me to shut up:

Listen up, I watched my boy get shots, I watched him get a fever that the doctor considered dangerous and he never fully recovered.

That fever did'nt just "happen"...that shot produced it. I'll leave it at that, we'll never find common ground on this one....unless it happens to YOUR child one day and I pray it does'nt.

1120 Sheepdogess  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:24:09pm

re: #1049 grahamski

Avoid bad women.
[Link: www.urbandictionary.com...]

1121 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:25:53pm

re: #1119 Maximu§

As I said before, right before you told me to shut up:


Listen up, I watched my boy get shots, I watched him get a fever that the doctor considered dangerous and he never fully recovered.

That fever did'nt just "happen"...that shot produced it. I'll leave it at that, we'll never find common ground on this one....unless it happens to YOUR child one day and I pray it does'nt.

You BELIEVE that the vaccination produced it. Belief in X doesn't make X the case. Any number of infections could have caused your child's fever. Just because A happened before B doesn't mean that A is the cause of B; to maintain otherwise is to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

And emotional appeals do not bend the logic of this point. Although believing that you know the cause of the fever, and therefore have something to blame, may lend you some degree of emotional comfort.

1122 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:26:51pm

re: #984 taxfreekiller

Liberal Democrats and the Open Borders "wage slave" abusers will end up causing the deaths of millions of the illegal kids and native American kids, via this bypass of the vaccinations.

Great evil comes from this modern use of slaves.
Democrats use them for votes, Republicans use them for profit.
Judgment will come to and for this evil.

Actually, we went to a pediatrician while we lived in GA who told me that lots of illegal aliens brought their kids in for vaccinations, and were always right on time for the shots. They had seen back home the horrors of non-vaccination. She said the illegals were her most compliant parents on vaccination schedules.

Yeah, we taxpayers foot the bill for that, but it's one benefit I'm happy to provide.

1123 Eric Cartman's Conscience  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:27:24pm

re: #1112 Salamantis

Sharmuta is an Arabic insult meaning "whore", generally used in the Middle East. Most Arab linguists agree, however, that it is of non-Arabic/Semitic origin.

Retrieved from "[Link: en.wiktionary.org...]

At Ace - it is used with the FULL knowledge of how "Sharmuta" conducts herself at LGF. It is not a literary, literal, figurative, or historical reference. It knowingly refers to the poster at LGF "Sharmuta". That was the point. Sorry if it was lost in poetic transliteration. It was about the specific poster at LGF.

1124 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:30:14pm

re: #1119

Maximu§
i am so sorry for the pain that your family has gone thru,
regarding what happened to your son.

1125 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:31:03pm

re: #1119 Maximu§

As I said before, right before you told me to shut up:

Listen up, I watched my boy get shots, I watched him get a fever that the doctor considered dangerous and he never fully recovered.

That fever did'nt just "happen"...that shot produced it. I'll leave it at that, we'll never find common ground on this one....unless it happens to YOUR child one day and I pray it does'nt.

You said the baby developed a fever of 103 that was sustained for a few days. That's not terribly uncommon, and is a reaction to the pertussis antigen in the DPT. 103 is a concern, but is not high enough to cause brain damage.

Some, very few, humans react badly to medications, and those reactions can cause permanent disability. But a fever of 103 wouldn't be what caused that level of damage.

I am really sorry your baby is sick. That must be awful. But rubeola at a tender age would likely have killed him or left him profoundly mentally retarded like my uncle.

1126 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:32:06pm
1127 Sheepdogess  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:32:49pm

re: #1094 nyc redneck

I was a poll worker in King County, WA. The Democrats cheat. Bags of "misplaced" ballots in heavy R areas always showed up after the the D was confirmed.

1128 Salamantis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:33:06pm

re: #1121 Salamantis

You BELIEVE that the vaccination produced it. Belief in X doesn't make X the case. Any number of infections could have caused your child's fever. Just because A happened before B doesn't mean that A is the cause of B; to maintain otherwise is to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

And emotional appeals do not bend the logic of this point. Although believing that you know the cause of the fever, and therefore have something to blame, may lend you some degree of emotional comfort.

This having been said, your lashing out at Sharmuta and myself is completely understandable; our contentions directly threaten the foundations of the emotional comfort you derive from believing that you know the cause of your child's condition.

1129 J.S.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:33:34pm

re: #1078 SanFranciscoZionist

I have no objection to a Beit Din. But, from what I understood about the Sharia "courts" was that they wanted to have Canadian secular courts enforcing the Sharia courts decisions...in other words, having the Canadian courts acting as the "keepers" of Sharia law (thus posing, imo, a problem).

1130 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:34:20pm

re: #1123 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Really? They trash talk about me at Ace's? That's nice.

1131 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:40:41pm

re: #1041 Sharmuta

Excuse me, did you not come in here and proclaim your credentials? I'm not the one ignoring what actual medical professionals are saying on this subject, so why are you picking a fight with me? Perhaps I should ignore you like others have and you'd respect me more for it?

I "proclaimed my credentials" as you say so I would not be attacked as someone who is a "kook" or does not know what they are talking about.
I asked you the question because you seem to fancy yourself as an expert...and you refuse to state any qualifications.

Other people are ignoring because you say so?, maybe they are just not commenting on what I am saying...it happens ...and if they want to ignore, fine by me, I don't need validation from others.

I am not "picking a fight" with you, that is just the way you see things...it seems you have a very short fuse, and are unable to hold a civil conversation.

I my opinion, this subject is way over the heads of the vast majority here, save a few...and people who "act" like they are experts, and "provide " inaccurate information about medical issues are just dangerous.

1132 nyc redneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:45:02pm

re: #1126 taxfreekiller

R's may be out cheating the D's

D ahead 100 votes now all boxes in but one in Saratoga county

developing

i just heard on the radio (albany) that it is now going to come down to lawyers,
recounts and absentee ballots.
this could be a good thing. military votes.

1133 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:46:37pm

re: #1131 grahamski

I asked you the question because you seem to fancy yourself as an expert...and you refuse to state any qualifications.

That that is your problem. Not once did I say I was an expert, I did however cite the medical research.

I my opinion, this subject is way over the heads of the vast majority here, save a few...and people who "act" like they are experts, and "provide " inaccurate information about medical issues are just dangerous.

Do you have an issue with the medical research I cited? Am I and others not allowed to cite the actual medical research on this, and by doing so does that make us "acting" like experts in your opinion?

1134 rawmuse  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:46:46pm

re: #75 Tarkus289

I used to play with mercury, push it around with my fingers.
Am I going to die?

Yes, but not from that.

1135 Roses  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:47:53pm

re: #851 FightingBack

You prefer Genital Warts? The vaccine is 100% (!) effective against the the most common cause of Cervical Cancer. The first time that I gave this vaccine to a patient (I was in the Delivery Room at her birth, 12 years ago)) I trembled with joy.

No, I'm glad there's a vaccine. I'm not sure what I think about it being mandated. Maybe my concerns will be allayed when I read up on it, when it comes time for me to make that decision for my daughters.

I have similar concerns about the Chicken Pox vaccine, but I went ahead with that one anyway.

1136 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:48:32pm

re: #1081 HoosierHoops

Who the hell elected you a referee? You have nothing to contribute to this discussion and I'm pretty sure nobody sent you a check this month to moderate..Hush up.. Take a step back..no offense..

I have nothing to contribute to this conversation?...I am a medical professional, who else would have anything to contribute to a conversation about vaccines than medical professionals?

And who the hell made YOU a referee, or asked you to respond?...where the hell do you get off telling me to hush up?

Get over yourself... I suggest YOU take a step back.

1137 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:49:37pm
1138 Achilles Tang  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:50:00pm

re: #769 albusteve

when you do a logging thread you'll get hate mail from anti-oaklie...it never ends

I don't know if it's me or the pun, but that one took longer than usual to fly.

1139 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:50:03pm

Hey, any of you medical type folks: why doesn't the meningitis vaccine have the D serogroup of N. meningiditis included? Is it too hard to get antigen from it or something?

Are there vaccines against meningitis?

Yes, there are vaccines against Hib, against some serogroups of N. meningitidis and many types of Streptococcus pneumoniae. The vaccines against Hib are very safe and highly effective.

There are two vaccines against N. meningitidis available in the U.S. Meningococcal polysaccharide vaccine (MPSV4 or Menomune®) has been approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and available since 1981. Meningococcal conjugate vaccine (MCV4 or MenactraT) was licensed in 2005. Both vaccines can prevent 4 types of meningococcal disease, including 2 of the 3 types most common in the U.S. (serogroup C, Y, and W-135) and a type that causes epidemics in Africa (serogroup A). Meningococcal vaccines cannot prevent all types of the disease. But they do protect many people who might become sick if they didn't get the vaccine. Meningitis cases should be reported to state or local health departments to assure follow-up of close contacts and recognize outbreaks.

MCV4 is recommended for all children at their routine preadolescent visit (11 to 12 years of age). For those who have never gotten MCV4 previously, a dose is recommended at high school entry. Other adolescents who want to decrease their risk of meningococcal disease can also get the vaccine. Other people at increased risk for whom routine vaccination is recommended are college freshmen living in dormitories, microbiologists who are routinely exposed to meningococcal bacteria, U.S. military recruits, anyone who has a damaged spleen or whose spleen has been removed; anyone who has terminal complement component deficiency (an immune system disorder), anyone who is traveling to the countries which have an outbreak of meningococcal disease, and those who might have been exposed to meningitis during an outbreak. MCV4 is the preferred vaccine for people 11 to 55 years of age in these risk groups, but MPSV4 can be used if MCV4 is not available. MPSV4 should be used for children 2 to 10 years old, and adults over 55, who are at risk.

Meningitis scares the crap out of me.

1140 grahamski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:50:12pm

Dinner time, I am outta here....
Have fun you crazy kids.

1141 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:51:29pm

re: #1136 grahamski

No- I agree with Hoops. You need to take a step back and maybe reread the thread. I cited the medical research and was attacked for doing so by a person who has no more qualifications than I do in medicine, yet you attack me. Unless, that is, you're a medical professional who thinks vaccinations are indeed causing autism. Are you?

1142 dgd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 7:56:34pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, if I"ve been vaccinated I won't get whatever I've been vaccinated against. So the idiot parents who do this are only putting their own kids at risk. And one of the risks ifor young men is sterility. Sounds like this is a problem that will solve itself over time. BTW Ashland Oregon appears to be a hotbed of anti-science as well.

1143 Gbear  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:04:59pm

The herd will be thinned out, one way or another.

1144 quickjustice  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:07:12pm

re: #709 sleepyone

It takes a special kind of jerk to diss "Big Pharma" when they're the ones putting bread on your table.

1145 Karagush  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:14:07pm

Im coming late to this conversation but i feel i must weigh in. I believe that getting a child its Vax is a helpful thing and must be done. I also know it is not without some slight risk. This benefit however usually outweighs the risk.

That said, I also breed VERY valuable horses.
we are taught never to vax Extremely Valuable foals too young. They will have increased risk of neurological defects, high fever and sudden death.
People seem to be All or nothing type creatures-- things are all bad or OK and just fine. Life's not like that. Some things can be just fine to most people but all bad for a very few. Humans don't come with tags and warning labels to tell us which will be sensitive and have reactions to drugs, tho.

Sadly, we only find out after we do what we think is right and find out it didn't work out so good for us:(

Because a not negligible percentage do develop problems if you hit em all at once with a bunch of vaccines, and i cant afford to lose even one foal a year
I do my required vax, BUT i spread it out. I don't overwhelm young systems. I don't do vax for stuff they wont be exposed to yet, wait even a year in some cases, or just before a sale depending on how the weather is and what diseases are cropping up in the area. Like I think hep Vax for infants in first world countries in the first days of life....that can wait a few months. Our sanitation and public water is good enough. If i lived in Mexico, i would choose differently

That said, i have a child with brain injury due to being hit by a car. She took Vax fine. Its heartbreaking to have a perfect child face a terribly complicated and vulnerable future when it could have been so different. Sympathy for the parent is in order. If it hurts to have a ruined foal, its unimaginable agony to have a child who had a bad reaction and is now suffering. And parents having to care for special needs kids go through alot. I know. You think parenting a normal child is hard--special needs parenting is even more so. To be honest, all Vax have POSSIBLE side effects, for certain small numbers of the population, ranging from neurological damage, organ failure, to death. It is very rare but not impossible or unheard of. The parents deserve sympathy, not brow beating. The won a sucky lottery.
Information on the benefits vs the risk, and understanding life is not safe and it all carries risk, is our best defense against reactionarianism. And Drs need to be up front about how sometimes even very safe Vax can in some few instances have a bad effect. But it far outweighs the risks of going back to the days when we could not fight these diseases, that we have almost wiped out thru blanket vaccination. Also we do all we can to minimize the risk in developing Vax that are even better tolerated, with fewer side effects. But we cant iron all risk out of life.
And so statistically, people like Maximus and others will continue to suffer as their kids have problems and there will be no clear reason why their kids had reactions when most others seem to do fine. Tho hopefully FEWER will suffer.
I just chalk it up to that lack of warning labels on our arms.
Down-dinging much less cussing out a person who is going through something difficult, and which is possibly exactly what he says it is, is not generally how i see this community react. Usually i see this group as so much more supportive, and i am really surprised.

1146 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:14:36pm
1147 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:15:55pm

Well, I don't have time to read through this thread, but I do have time to say something quick. There may not be a proper investigation of this phenomena--the autism-vaccination links--because the wrong kinds of questions were asked by researchers. It is not the vaccine, it is what the medium that delivers the vaccine that has been the concern of many parents. However, I think there is something more, and that is the children that are affected all have something in common. I have speculated that it is, in fact, a compromised immune system--and presents as an allergy of some sort.

My grandson, who I legally adopted when he was a baby, has Asperger's Syndrome, diagnosed when he was about 5--confirming my own hypothesis made when he was around 3. When he came to live with me at age six months or so, he was covered with eczema and had bouts of such severe breathing problems that at first doctors thought he might have cystic fibrosis. His development, other than being underweight, was perfectly normal (my experience? Six children of my own) Nevertheless, all that changed on the day he had to have six immunizations--all at once--at age 14 months, before he could be in left in daycare. He had a seizure. He began to drool and bang his head rhythmically on the car window. He stopped all language development; he didn't want to be held; he wouldn't look anyone in the face. Noises and sunlight drove him crazy--and it got worse. My background is science--originally neurophysiology--and so I began the research. Britain is far more forthright with its access to this kind of information and soon several things began to help--no gluten in his diet, in particular. A steroid ointment helped with the eczema, and his allergies slowly began to improve with special medications. However, the behavior became worse. By two, he was impulsive, anti-social, and terrified of being held, crazed by the chaotic singing of his peers in daycare sessions--and more and more. When he was sick with a fever, all symptoms disappeared and a smiling little boy, calm and with restored language was with me for a few days--then back to the abyss. I forced him to look into my face, while I sang to him, read stories to him and talked to him. I kept careful records and one day, when I was speaking with my neighbor, a child psychologist I asked her about autism and vaccinations--because that was the trackback date--anecdotal, I know, but there it was. Much to my surprise, she knew all about this--including the mercury used as a medium for the vaccines. Mercury poisoning, of course, is permanent. However, this condition of his, doesn't appear to be. Here's why. Two years ago, he wandered outside around 9 p.m. when I took the babysitter home. It was freezing cold outside. When I came back--he was gone. Six hours later, between the police, the neighbors, the sniffer dogs, and a helicopter, he was found--by me. He had fallen from the tree near the garage onto the roof--and been knocked cold. He had sneaked out to see the exploding star i had told him about. Bottom line? He had hypothermia, and we made a trip to the hospital. Two days later, he returned to school where the special education teachers were stunned. His handwriting was neat and "normal." He understood all the math problems he hadn't been able to do even the day before. He spoke fluently, lost his nervous, rhythmic movements, and "antsy-ness." This lasted three weeks and then gradually, he slipped back to the old state--which by then, was quite high-functioning. Cont'd

1148 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:16:10pm

..cont'd.
I contacted the researchers at MIT because they are doing research into what they believe is the mechanism that switches this condition on and off--only until then, it was a FEVER that seemed to be the key. Now, this was evidence that extreme cold also did this. I have hope that this "switch" can be found, and that whatever combination of factors trigger the shutdown the brain's mechanism resulting in what we call "autism" or in my little guy's case, Asperger's Syndrome, we will know, too. We are not crazy, only heartbroken.

1149 Sheepdogess  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:19:55pm

re: #1046 Alberta Oil Peon

My husband and I both used thimerosal preserved saline in the 80's. We both suffered with very painful, almost blinding eye irritation. When soft contacts were introduced in the eighties, we were given a bottle of distilled water and container of saline tablets. The cost for a gallon of saline was about 15 cents. Eight ounces of "preserved saline" ran about 4 bucks. Allergan had friends at the FDA and saline tablets were banned within months. Allergan removed thimerosal from saline shortly after the saline tablets were no longer available for sale in the US. What a scam.

1150 Sheepdogess  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:20:52pm

re: #1142 dgd

Ashland, OR.
Libturd Heaven.

1151 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:22:08pm

re: #1145 Karagush

Karagush, this is a p.s. I took my very valuable persian kitten for his distemper and rabies boosters last Thursday. He has been running a fever, sneezing and now has to go back to the vet's for subcutaneous fluids, antihistamines,etc. The vet says: "we are seeing a lot of reactions to these vaccinations over the past couple of years." To my surprise, she added that many animal meds and vaccines are now made in foreign countries, notably China. Her practice is going to be looking elsewhere for a source.

1152 meh130  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:31:54pm

re: #436 Jetpilot1101

Folks, as a member of the military I was ordered to received the smallpox vaccine. I dutifully did (took me two times and 20 sticks with the forked needle to give it to me but I endured). The vaccine never took. In other words, I never got the nasty blister/pustule on my arm. I suffered no ill effects.

I am curious. Did you get a smallpox vaccination as a child? Your experience is more consistent with existing immunity based on a childhood vaccination.

If you did not receive a childhood vaccination, your lack of response means you have a natural immunity. It could come from exposure to related viruses, such as Buffalopox, Camelpox, Cowpox, Monkeypox, Rabbitpox, Raccoonpox, Sealpox, or Skunkpox. Did you live on a farm, have a pet rabbit, play with racoons or skunks, or work at Sea World or as an organ grinder?

I had the smallpox vaccine as a child, as I recall the county nurse used the big silver smallpox "gun". That must have been 1972. I almost had no reaction to the booster I got in 2003, which would have required another attempt, but finally got a very small reaction.

1153 NY Nana  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:32:56pm

As a 7-year old, my first trip to NYC to see relatives? I was the guest from hell; I came down with chicken pox the second day I was there. This was in 1945. My poor cousin had a sign on the door from the NYC Board of Health: Quarantine. I was miserable, and had a very high fever. I also managed to have the mumps at age 9, on one side, and on the last day of contagion? The other side. I missed a lot of school. I also had the measles when I was a kid, and the German measles as an adult. I caught it from a classmate in nursing school.

There were no immunizations. And my kids? They all got the Chicken Pox, and being perverse, each one did it on the last day of contagion of the one who had it. This added up to nearly 4 months! Now that 3 of the 4 are are parents, I have never even had to suggest immunizations for the grandkids. Re thimerosal in the influenza vaccines? Yes, there is a tiny amount in adult vaccine, but they make it for children without any whatsoever, pertaining to age, even though there is no danger. I would imagine that it is important enough to make sure babies from the age of 6 months of age to, IIRC, around 3, as some parents do not like the truth, and thus should have no excuse. My now 2 1/2 year old grandson had his first one at age 6 months, and I imagine it had some it. He is fine, and this past fall, didn't even cry. There was a green lollipop in the deal. ;)

The UK and some other countries, and also pockets of the USA have had some horrific endemics of whooping cough in the past few years, as more people join the fear mongers.

I remember when the late Princess Diana took her 2 sons for a public vaccination to try and quell fears in the UK...NY Grampa and I will continue to get our flu shots every autumn, even though at our age, early 70's, it is not as efficacious as it is for those who are younger.

I am saving this thread...there are enough heroes to fill a large room, but sadly, enough nay sayers to make Charles look like he knew exactly what he was going to get, but put this thread up to try and educate a few Luddites.

Good on you, Charles.


Here is the info from the CDC on the subject.

1154 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:35:29pm

re: #792 Wilderstad

Again the body has defenses against the ingestion of such. The exposure is not the same.
Thimerosal in vaccines is injected directly into tissue.

You think the stomach acid can neutralize mercury?

1155 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:40:55pm

Hey- let's get back on common ground. . .:)

1156 NY Nana  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:45:46pm

re: #1155 DisturbedEma

Talk about epidemics! The One has pride of place in this one.

/And she will claim immunity.

Feh!

1157 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:47:38pm

Just to clarify. I am not against vaccines. No No No. Not only have I had mine, but all my children did as well. This little guy with AS, however, is still getting boosters, etc., but I do think we should not close our minds to the possibility that for whatever reason, a minority of children (and mostly boys) may be particularly susceptible to something used in the manufacturing process or used to deliver the vaccine. It could also be something in the environment itself --including the birth process (drugs, etc.)--which acts to predispose a child in this way. It isn't helpful or compassionate to dismiss out of hand the anecdotal evidence and disparage those who would most like to find out what happened and if it can be fixed. Unless we take these concerns seriously, we won't know. I just missed getting one of the early polio vaccines--the ones that proved fatally flawed, when I was a child. Until this discussion tonight, I had forgotten about it.

1158 Karagush  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:50:30pm

re: #1151 katemaclaren

Karagush, this is a p.s. I took my very valuable persian kitten for his distemper and rabies boosters last Thursday. He has been running a fever, sneezing and now has to go back to the vet's for subcutaneous fluids, antihistamines,etc. The vet says: "we are seeing a lot of reactions to these vaccinations over the past couple of years." To my surprise, she added that many animal meds and vaccines are now made in foreign countries, notably China. Her practice is going to be looking elsewhere for a source.

i find a difference in Ft Dodge and Farnam products. Ft Dodge seem to be better. i dont know why.
I had a friend with an irreplaceable mare who keeled over dead from a usually well tolerated Vaccine. Rare side effect is internal hemorrhage. Happens five times a year or thereabouts.
I know a cat breeder who will use some products, but not others after she lots a bunch of kittens, and breeding cats, had neurological effects and GI damage.
She stopped with the one type of Vaccine, and hasnt lost kittens since.

Since we have more kittens and foals than most people have kids patterns emerge. however, like i said, i manage risk. I dont want foals dying from diseases i could avoid. So i give shots. But there are vets who will tell you how to do it so it has the least chance of causing problems. With animals there have been vast experiments that help with understanding this.

With babies... not so much.

1159 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 8:52:59pm

re: #1153 NY Nana

The CDC has been wrong about many things--including guessing which strain of influenza will be the gotcha last year and probably this year, too. Remember Avian flu? ..or the whateveryearitwas-coming flu pandemic brouhaha for which George Bush was so roundly criticized by the legions of his critics? Government scientists. I worked with a bunch of them once. They take a lot of cigarette breaks.

1160 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:00:59pm

re: #1158 Karagush

Karagush, I agree--managed risk is best. I think vaccines at the moment are a shotgun (a cheap shotgun) approach, and as more children survive birth with, at least right now, undetectable immune system problems for whatever reason, we will have to take a closer look at individual bio profiles. I'm sure that this is an area of research which already exists as a niche--and as the need to solve this seems to becoming more urgent--will be absolutely essential as the problems multiply in our population. I haven't researched this, myself, but wonder if the autism problem is growing in other countries, and if so, where. This is probably a simple search, but it just occurred to me.

1161 arier_tzvi  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:17:42pm

I have to agree with Kara. Vaxing a child is needed. How many of us get the Flu vaccines? We have no idea what harm that may do to our own bodies. Yet each year we line up in droves for the vaccine. Each person may react differently to the vaccine as well. So we cant generalize like some are doing.

1162 Karagush  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:30:07pm

re: #1160 katemaclaren

Karagush, I agree--managed risk is best. I think vaccines at the moment are a shotgun (a cheap shotgun) approach, and as more children survive birth with, at least right now, undetectable immune system problems for whatever reason, we will have to take a closer look at individual bio profiles. I'm sure that this is an area of research which already exists as a niche--and as the need to solve this seems to becoming more urgent--will be absolutely essential as the problems multiply in our population. I haven't researched this, myself, but wonder if the autism problem is growing in other countries, and if so, where. This is probably a simple search, but it just occurred to me.

we also have many children surviving may things they would never have been saved from before in earlier times. Myself, i survived meningitis and encephalitis when i was 15. It left me so badly damaged that my folks didnt want me, and i was raised by a foster parent for the latter half of my teen years. He used to remind them i was injured and not "retarded!"
the memory still hurts.
I look and act ok now, but it took 17 years before i felt i was "all right." Now i just suffer many small lingering effect that the highly functional, minimally autistic do.
soooo.
Someone else here described kids with autism as usually having other issues too.... i think of these deals as chains of issues all interconnected and creating symptoms that entwine.

High fever will get you brain damage. water on the brain will get you Brain damage (I know) But is the effect autism or autism like? Neurodiagnostics is still in its infancy. The brain just isnt very well understood and how it is sensitive in some people but not others is a mystery.
I simply cannot take certain medicines. They will make me sick or even kill me.
At this point science cant say why me and not someone else. They can guess it had something to do with my illness which i should not have lived thru. But thats it.
My kid, who is adopted, also has no such issues. she is head injured too but from a physical trauma, and tolerates many things i could never dream of taking. SO i believe theres a genetic component in there somewhere to do with this sensitivity. I suspect its like an allergy.
but you know what?
Im not a Dr so i just dont know.
And my drs at UCLA tell me they dont know either, and they are the best.

1163 DisturbedEma  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:30:07pm

re: #1121 Salamantis

You BELIEVE that the vaccination produced it. Belief in X doesn't make X the case. Any number of infections could have caused your child's fever. Just because A happened before B doesn't mean that A is the cause of B; to maintain otherwise is to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

And emotional appeals do not bend the logic of this point. Although believing that you know the cause of the fever, and therefore have something to blame, may lend you some degree of emotional comfort.

Totally agree- the need for a bad guy/villian is strong in many parents of special needs.

This is a totally dangerous coping device though- literally risking lives with his "ah la la la I can't hear you, i am not listening to you" reply. . .

1164 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:39:12pm

re: #1145 Karagush

Karagush, my daughter is horse crazy and has been for years. Funny story--when she first got into them she was 5. I told her that we couldn't buy her a horse then, but if she was still interested and responsible and enjoying her riding lessons when she was 13 we would.

Guess how old she is? Oy vey....we're gonna lease for at least a year. :-)

1165 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:42:15pm

It is easy to see that like the many parents who judged my parenting by looking critically at my little grandson's behavior, others are still judgmental. Most parents with children afflicted like this, are not looking for villains--they are too busy trying to cope with the challenges now and ahead. Trying to plan for a child's future where you may not be there to help them. I wonder if anyone on this thread who may harbor the opinion that this is not a "real" crisis, but that these children are "spoiled" as I've actually heard some say. Be careful of that kind of thinking--I think I may have been one of those--and boy, karma hurts.
Kara--I will remember what you said. Injured. Yes. A different way of looking at it. I will also remember that it is the child at the center of this debate that has to be everyone's concern--not just the parents. The ripple effect of whatever it is causing this--will be of tsunami proportions if we don't find out and fix it.

1166 Karagush  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:43:05pm

re: #1164 funky chicken

Karagush, my daughter is horse crazy and has been for years. Funny story--when she first got into them she was 5. I told her that we couldn't buy her a horse then, but if she was still interested and responsible and enjoying her riding lessons when she was 13 we would.

Guess how old she is? Oy vey....we're gonna lease for at least a year. :-)

get a nice old horse. If you are in California i may know many trainers depending on discipline and region, and point you towards someone honest.

1167 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:43:42pm

re: #1164 funky chicken

Rent-a-horse? Would that be Hortz?

1168 Karagush  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:50:13pm

re: #1165 katemaclaren

It is easy to see that like the many parents who judged my parenting by looking critically at my little grandson's behavior, others are still judgmental. Most parents with children afflicted like this, are not looking for villains--they are too busy trying to cope with the challenges now and ahead. Trying to plan for a child's future where you may not be there to help them. I wonder if anyone on this thread who may harbor the opinion that this is not a "real" crisis, but that these children are "spoiled" as I've actually heard some say. Be careful of that kind of thinking--I think I may have been one of those--and boy, karma hurts.
Kara--I will remember what you said. Injured. Yes. A different way of looking at it. I will also remember that it is the child at the center of this debate that has to be everyone's concern--not just the parents. The ripple effect of whatever it is causing this--will be of tsunami proportions if we don't find out and fix it.

the person who took me in, managed my rehabilitation and made me a little human again was an old retired Gunny Sgt. He had become a university professor, retired from that, and was quietly dying of COPD when he met me, and decided on one last project. he died in 1990.
he is my hero.
Those words rang in my ears when i first met the child who became my adopted daughter
At first i wasnt sure i wanted to take her on, worried it was too much. But remembered thats how he felt about me! so i did it, jumping in with both feet.
it was HARD. I dont think people are looking for villains. Often they are looking for answers. That way, if you know what caused it, you can form a game plan.
or not.
Glenn taught me you deal with the horse you have today, the kid you got today. OTOH.... insight does help. preconcieved notions either way do not.

1169 big L  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 9:55:40pm

I thought it might be from aspirin-autism. There are two kid son my block that have autism. One is growing out of it at 12 yrs old if that ispossible. He seems better.
the other seems more like brain damage from birth, like Perebral Palsy. His mther is tall and he is 12 0r13 . andtall and can't communicate except with grunts and yells and he swings his arms like a wind-mill.Kind of scary at times. I don't think it is autism It is something else.
mY dad had alzheimers and that was really awful too.It was like picking up a corner of the earth and looking into Hell.Every day the brain dropped off some habit, some ability.But things are better now. you don't see as many zombies walking around now with family. there are drugs.They postpone some of the symptoms, push them off until other diseases move in.

1170 katemaclaren  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:14:05pm

re: #1169 big L

Sounds like the boy has Tourette's Syndrome.

1171 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 10:57:43pm

re: #1122 funky chicken

Actually, we went to a pediatrician while we lived in GA who told me that lots of illegal aliens brought their kids in for vaccinations, and were always right on time for the shots. They had seen back home the horrors of non-vaccination. She said the illegals were her most compliant parents on vaccination schedules.

Yeah, we taxpayers foot the bill for that, but it's one benefit I'm happy to provide.

Hear, hear. That's NOT the place to worry about cost to the taxpayer. I'll put in an extra hundred bucks...just make sure everyone gets their shots!

1172 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:02:04pm

re: #1129 J.S.

I have no objection to a Beit Din. But, from what I understood about the Sharia "courts" was that they wanted to have Canadian secular courts enforcing the Sharia courts decisions...in other words, having the Canadian courts acting as the "keepers" of Sharia law (thus posing, imo, a problem).

That does sound like a problem. Sorry, this is one of the things I keep trying to get more info on, and it's slippery.

1173 Seax  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:08pm

I don't know if MMR causes autism or not - all I have is what I have seen.Friends had a son the same time as us - development was normal for both our kids. Vaccine time comes round.Half way through the course my boy comes home in a distressed state - does the whole stiffened body /eyes rolling back in head routine. The doctor asks to continue the vaccine course - I tell her to "F**K OFF!" The friends
( who are very educated, her being a highly trained nurse) continue the vaccine course. Result is our boy is a normal kid - theirs is a profoundly handicaped little boy - ...who has autism.
The Doctor comes round to ask to vaccine our new daughter - my reply?I tell her to "F**K OFF!". Another of our friends - normal developing daughter - does the vaccine - and that daughter is truly well F**KED! Siezures ( big time), learning diffculties the whole works.
OK ...next scene...- the government of my fine country ( not the USA ) says we must vaccinate all our primary school kids and high school kids against meningococcal disease. Something tells me not to get our kids done - (OK - the force was strong with me on that day -thats a joke by the way ).Anyway the pressure to conform was truly heinous - in the end I dig my feet in and ...wait for it - you can probably guess my comment by now!
So the whole country gets done - apart from a few "malcontents ruining it for everyone".So what happens? All over the country kids get the vaccination....and...and...whole schools have kids not arriving to school the next day as they are way too sick.Some schools are down so much they consider closing.After about 2-3 weeks everything sort of gets back to normal.Whats a few hundred screwed up kids - possibly even 1 or 2 deaths mean to an *sshole government-who won't even acknowledge something was wrong? Anyway voting time came around - and they were down the road ...(now a lot of people here don't trust any politician of any type/party etc)
I have since talked to very educated Doctors/Nurses/Medical professionals etc - ( Wow ,my wife knows some amazing people!) - and they won't have their kids vaccinated with anything at all.Actually for all their education their comment was disturbingly like my comment.

I don't know if MMR causes autism or not - all I have is what I have seen...that's my 2 cents worth...

1174 Emerald  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 4:49:39am

re: #1173 Seax

Have you bothered to read any of the links or information provided? There is no difference in the rates of autism among children who are vaccinated and those who are not. If the vaccine caused it - even in a small percentage - there would be a noticeable difference in the rates of occurrence.

The doctor who first started this nonsense has been proven to be a liar. He falsified his data. The journal that published his results admitted they made a mistake and apologized. The is not a single shred of evidence that supports the notion that vaccines are to blame.

1175 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 4:57:43am

I'm way late to this thread and not sure if this article from the Times of London has been referenced, but the article claims that the Dr. who originally linked autism to the MMR vaccine faked his data.

THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

The research was published in February 1998 in an article in The Lancet medical journal. It claimed that the families of eight out of 12 children attending a routine clinic at the hospital had blamed MMR for their autism, and said that problems came on within days of the jab. The team also claimed to have discovered a new inflammatory bowel disease underlying the children’s conditions.

However, our investigation, confirmed by evidence presented to the General Medical Council (GMC), reveals that: In most of the 12 cases, the children’s ailments as described in The Lancet were different from their hospital and GP records. Although the research paper claimed that problems came on within days of the jab, in only one case did medical records suggest this was true, and in many of the cases medical concerns had been raised before the children were vaccinated. Hospital pathologists, looking for inflammatory bowel disease, reported in the majority of cases that the gut was normal. This was then reviewed and the Lancet paper showed them as abnormal.

Read the whole thing.

1176 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 5:37:52am

Here are links to some subsequent articles in the Times.

MMR scare doctor Andrew Wakefield makes fortune in US

The doctor who triggered an international scare over the MMR vaccine, contributing to a resurgence of measles cases in Britain, has admitted that his claims are “not proved”.
Andrew Wakefield, who is the subject of a disciplinary inquiry by the General Medical Council, told The Times that he was unrepentant about his theory linking the combined MMR vaccine to bowel disorder s and autism.

But he appeared to distance himself from his infamous Lancet paper on MMR, instead suggesting that his theory stemmed from his own analysis of “safety studies” – a review that has never been peer-reviewed or published.

Case against Dr Andrew Wakefield, who linked MMR and autism, to cost over £1m

Dr Wakefield and two colleagues face charges of serious professional misconduct over their research, which claimed a link between autism in children and the vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella (MMR).

Their findings, based on a study of 12 children, have since been discredited. Subsequent research failed to find any health risks in giving children MMR.

1177 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 5:57:47am

re: #1174 Emerald

Have you bothered to read any of the links or information provided? There is no difference in the rates of autism among children who are vaccinated and those who are not. If the vaccine caused it - even in a small percentage - there would be a noticeable difference in the rates of occurrence.

The doctor who first started this nonsense has been proven to be a liar. He falsified his data. The journal that published his results admitted they made a mistake and apologized. The is not a single shred of evidence that supports the notion that vaccines are to blame.


Absolutely. I've noticed too, that the people who believe there is something to the mmr/autism scare are just sailing past all the contrary evidence that's been posted as if it didn't exist. It's pathetic.

1178 Emerald  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 7:10:55am

re: #1177 Jimmah

Absolutely. I've noticed too, that the people who believe there is something to the mmr/autism scare are just sailing past all the contrary evidence that's been posted as if it didn't exist. It's pathetic.

I can understand why a parent would want to latch onto this if their child had autism - it's easier to cope with if there is someone or something to "blame". But there's no reason in the world for anyone else to keep believing this nonsense after it has repeatedly been shown to be baseless. People are endangering their children based on a lie. It's just insane.

1179 Throbert McGee  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 7:38:01am

re: #1173 Seax

I don't know if MMR causes autism or not - all I have is what I have seen...that's my 2 cents worth...

If I'd actually paid you the 2 cents, I'd feel ripped off.

1180 Throbert McGee  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 7:53:19am

re: #1152 meh130

I had the smallpox vaccine as a child, as I recall the county nurse used the big silver smallpox "gun". That must have been 1972.

Do you happen to know when routine smallpox vaccinations stopped in your area? My sister and I are military brats and we both got the smallpox vaccine as children in the mid-'70s, but I know that some "civilian kids" of our age in the U.S. (I'm 37, my sister is 35) were never vaccinated for smallpox, because it was being phased out as a "routine" childhood shot during the early '70s.

1181 Rolltideroll  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 8:20:46am

Not immunizing a child is child abuse. It shouldn't even be a choice of the parent. It passes beyond them and their child and allows diseases that we can prevent an opportunity to reenter society. These people are loons of the first water.

1182 jackflash  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 8:34:08am

This is one really legitimate reason for government - requiring vaccinations to protect the general population. People who suggest that government is unnecessary need to think about this problem.

1183 CanuckInMI  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 10:26:40am

As I have an 18 month old daughter, this issue is near and dear to my heart. My wife being a perpetual worried mother (and watching Jenny McCarthy on Oprah one day) researched all of this MMR vaccination leading to autism issue, and was quite worried about for a time. I did some reading on it myself and found that 9 out of 10 studies on this issue suggest no problem with the MMR vaccination. What is notable is that Autism is typically diagnosed around 18 months to 2 years old, which by coincidence is when the MMR vaccination is given to young children. Makes it an easy suspect for parents of children who have autism to blame. I this this issue is more about parental psychology than about science, and I wish Jenny McCarthy would stop talking in public about it stirring up unneeded worry.

1184 Michal  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 12:12:41pm

re: #12 BlueCanuck

Yeah, well here in Israel this trend has been going on for about 15 years and we are beginning to reap what others have refused to sow. Measles closed down a school last year near Haifa, and mumps is coming back. there was the polio outbreak in Israel in 1988 which lead to the entire population being vaccinated. Measles in adults is really bad news. A friend's father caught it and he's in a wheel chair now. And of course mumps can cause sterility in males. All of these diseases can kill. But herd immunity of the last 40years has erased the herd memory of what damage and heartbreak these immunizations have prevented.
All this talk here has me convinced to go to the doctor and find out what booster shots I and my husband may need.

One last thing: Can a minor in the US demand to immunized without parents consent?
maybe there needs to be some kind of information campaign for older kids to decide for themselves.

1185 Michal  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 12:21:51pm

re: #1162 Karagush

hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated since the 1950's.
if there were problems, they would be obivious by now. they'd stick out by a mile.

People just want everything in life to be 100% risk free and hassle free, easy and it's not like that and it never will be.

I have 3 out 5 learning disabled kids. I know from where I speak.
Learn to cope, not blame.

1186 Salamantis  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 1:08:55pm

I think that some people want, even need, to blame vaccines for their childrens' autism, because one of the main alternative possibilities - that the disorder could be genetically predisposed, and that therefore they might be genopmically defective and heritably responsible - is simply too horrifying for them to contemplate.

1187 katemaclaren  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 1:29:37pm

I had measles when I was six years old-in 1948. I lived. I'm not blind or crippled or disabled and neither were the dozens of other children who had measles, mumps and so on. I'm glad we have vaccines, but honestly, some of the comments here are so cold, frankly, that one wonders if the show of concern is merely that, a show. There are risks. There are risks. We need to isolate the causes of the risks and make sure that children who are in this category are either vaccinated later, or new vaccines are created which reduce that risk, or that some children be exempt from vaccines. The general population will protect them, just as we are protected from many illnesses because of having the good fortune to be in a country where people are generally healthy. For those people who have children disabled with autism, it is not helpful to accuse them of wanting to blame someone to avoid accepting responsibility for perhaps providing a defective genetic inheritance. For goodness sake, what a cruel accusation.

1188 katemaclaren  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 1:32:39pm

re: #1180 Throbert McGee

I don't know the answer, but it shouldn't be hard to find out. One of the interesting things about the small pox vaccine is its association with herpes and shingles.

1189 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 2:35:39pm

re: #1187 katemaclaren

No one is being cold hearted. People are genuinely concerned about childrens lives and health, which are threatened not by vaccinations but by scare stories that instill fear of vaccinations. There is NO EVIDENCE that ANY children are at risk of autism from vaccinations. The study that spawned this scare was shown to be fraudulent. Other studies have shown no connection with autism whatsoever.

I'd rather piss a couple of people off than treat this nonsense with kid gloves and in so doing give the impression that maybe there is something to these stories. I'd hate to think that any parents would read this thread and as a result fail to get their child vaccinated. I'm sure others here feel the same.

1190 yochanan  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 6:54:19pm

re: #1187 katemaclaren

iron long machine, i remember them

polio was a major killer thanks to polio vac. it is all but gone.

all medications have side effects but with proper testing they find what works best.

1191 katemaclaren  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 7:15:19pm

It's nice how the ding down works, isn't it. It's rather like the ad hominem argument, no? It's also anonymous. But is it really? No. I was once so quick to fly to judgment, but Karma, as I said earlier, is a mean s.o.b.--and while I am not superstitious, I know what it feels like to choke down crow for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So, I listen more and broadcast less. ...and yes, I'm glad Charles has given us the opportunity to register a pat on the back or a mean tap on the bean to those offending posters. and I guess right now, someone on this thread thinks I am offensive. While I don't do the upding downding very often, right now, I feel like Dr. Strangelove struggling to control my errant right hand--it's so so sooo hard to resist.

1192 katemaclaren  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 7:19:11pm

re: #568 Defector01

Nice to see the drones up and running - more liberal desires. Get kids really sick with the diseases that were basically eliminated years ago and use it to take more liberty "for the children". Besides the liberal won't be happy until he destroys every single accomplishment of the past century plus.

You ARE kidding, aren't you?

1193 katemaclaren  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 7:21:37pm

re: #1190 yochanan

I think you mean iron lung. Yes, I do, too. Lots of rumors flying around then about the causes. For some time we couldn't eat bananas--they were the cause. Then we couldn't go to the public pool--"it" was in the water. ...and so on. Very scary. Now, the only thing that causes polio in this country is the vaccine, according to VAERS and the CDC.

1194 Karagush  Wed, Apr 1, 2009 9:38:08pm

re: #1185 Michal

hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated since the 1950's.
if there were problems, they would be obvious by now. they'd stick out by a mile.

People just want everything in life to be 100% risk free and hassle free, easy and it's not like that and it never will be.

I have 3 out 5 learning disabled kids. I know from where I speak.
Learn to cope, not blame.

then we are in 100% agreement. that is exactly what i said. You didn't read what i said in this thread in #1145.
it was pretty much exactly what you said. my daughter was hit by a car and i blame nobody. I merely said that the parents of these children deserve our compassion, not contempt.
i made a very strong point that the benefits of taking the vax outweigh any possible costs. please do not misunderstand my very carefully worded position.


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