New Bill to Put Texas Creationists Under the Microscope

Science • Views: 1,493

A new bill introduced in the Texas House of Representatives will require meetings of the Board of Education to be recorded in audio and video, broadcast over the Internet, and archived for reference—an excellent idea that will expose the anti-science agenda of Republican chairman Don McLeroy (appointed by Republican governor Rick Perry) and his young earth creationist drones for the whole world to see: Put Texas education board under a microscope.

Broadcasting board meetings and archiving the videos also might wake up voters to the fact that they elect these people. Religious conservatives gained a stranglehold on the board several years ago because they understood they could win elections in which few voters knew anything about them or their extreme ideas.

The result is there for anyone to see. Chairman Don McLeroy, Dunbar and others have turned the education board into a national joke. But when it comes to teaching Texas children, what they have done is not funny.

Last week’s discussion about shaping the teaching of science to allow doubts about evolution was surreal. Biology texts now must include “all sides” of scientific theories — in other words, future textbooks must include criticism of long-standing scientific theories, including evolution.

The underlying point is that a board majority wants creationism to be part of the scientific discussion. And they got enough of a foot in the door with their language about teaching “all sides” of scientific theories that publishers will have to include criticism of evolution if they want to sell science textbooks to Texas schools.

Yes, absolutely—shine the spotlight on these people and their dishonest backers at the Discovery Institute, who pretend to be scientists while making alliances with fanatical creationists who want to sneak fundamentalist religion into science classes. If they’re really confident that their views are correct, surely they won’t object to this…

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314 comments

1 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:13:21pm

Sunlight is a great disinfectant.

2 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:16:12pm

Microscopes are instruments of the Devil!

/

3 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:16:49pm

It is a good idea in general, not just in this case.

4 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:18:51pm

lol texas

5 jaunte  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:19:11pm

It's a good effort, but they'll have to bug every member of the Board of Education to pick up all the planning that will be now conducted in private meetings.

6 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:19:54pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

Sunlight is a great disinfectant.

Just don't mix sunlight and a magnifying glass on the creationist. You'll end up overheating the carbon and, well, you know the rest.

7 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:20:30pm
Religious conservatives gained a stranglehold on the board several years ago because they understood they could win elections in which few voters knew anything about them or their extreme ideas.

This could be said for school boards across the country, though. Very few people have any idea who is on their school boards, or what they think. More people everywhere need to step up their civic participation and pay attention to elected education officials (and all other elected officials as well).

8 Steffan  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:23:31pm

Heh. This should be applied to all tiers of government. If, for instance, the California Legislature were bound by such rules (anybody wanna start a petition drive?), they wouldn't be able to get away with a tithe of what they're committing now.

I wish them the best of luck with this bill. Of course, if you turn the light on, the cockroaches will scatter to cover....

9 swamprat  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:24:15pm

Pravda has a lot of anti-evolution articles. I'm not sure what their game is, but I doubt it has anything to do with evolution.

10 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:25:55pm

re: #9 swamprat

I haven't heard the name "Pravda" in years. I guess I kind of assumed they fell apart in 1991.

11 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:26:11pm

"All those that doeth evil hateth the light." John...something or other.

12 Emperor Norton  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:30:02pm

I don't read Pravda for the articles. I read Pravda for the pictures. [Warning: Not Safe for Work, unless you work at Playboy.]

13 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:32:58pm

re: #12 Emperor Norton

I don't read Pravda for the articles. I read Pravda for the pictures. [Warning: Not Safe for Work, unless you work at Playboy.]

My parents wiped their asses with Pravda when there was no toilet paper.

14 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:34:35pm

re: #2 karmic_inquisitor

Microscopes are instruments of the Devil!

/

Indeed. By their very design, these infernal doohickeys distort light. They make little things look like they're big - and that's just the start of their lies. //

15 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:34:43pm

The underlying point is that a board majority wants creationism to be part of the scientific discussion

So whats the problem here?

You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion? Sounds like the Anti-Christians are the problem here. Also, I have some bad news for all you Haters in here.

Texas has a Christian majority and if you don't like it...move to California! Go ahead and Dance around the Golden Calf!

At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats, but it seems like the Atheists have no problem forcing their sick ways down ours, but don't push us too far.

Well, I expect about -17 down-dings for this one. Thats alright, its a badge of honor coming from the lot of you....ding away.

16 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:35:59pm

re: #13 traderjoe9

My parents wiped their asses with Pravda when there was no toilet paper.

I hope there were no ill effects.

17 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:36:08pm

McLeroy went well beyond his level of expertise (dentistry) in his testimony during the previous board hearings.

18 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:36:48pm

Some things are better left unsaid.

19 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:36:57pm

I predict a meltdown on #15.

20 golly  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:37:42pm

Noah had a microscope for THE amoeba.

21 jaunte  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:38:06pm

The throat/forcing trope has been so overdone as to have no meaning.
How many actual throats have had actual atheist things forced down them?
I'd like a real number.

22 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:39:19pm

That is why I favor agnosticism. I can't prove a lot of things one way or the other, so I try not to spout off too much. I try.

23 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:39:25pm

Damn, I'm good.re: #4 spacejesus

lol texas

That could be a good name for the show.

24 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:40:31pm

re: #22 Timbre

That is why I favor agnosticism. I can't prove a lot of things one way or the other, so I try not to spout off too much. I try.

I think the ability not to "spout off" is not limited to any belief.

25 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:41:05pm

re: #15 Maximu§

The underlying point is that a board majority wants creationism to be part of the scientific discussion

So whats the problem here?

You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion? Sounds like the Anti-Christians are the problem here. Also, I have some bad news for all you Haters in here.

Texas has a Christian majority and if you don't like it...move to California! Go ahead and Dance around the Golden Calf!

At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats, but it seems like the Atheists have no problem forcing their sick ways down ours, but don't push us too far.

Well, I expect about -17 down-dings for this one. Thats alright, its a badge of honor coming from the lot of you....ding away.

If schools teach Christian principles, does that mean schools should also teach the principles of all other religions and their views on the world's creation?

Nobody's forcing evolution down your throat. You have the option of sending your children to a religious school where evolution is not spoken off, or to a state-funded public school where only scientific ideas independent from religious or cultural beliefs are taught.

26 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:41:48pm

re: #15 Maximu§

Problem is, faith is not science. Simple enough, eh?

27 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:42:07pm

re: #21 jaunte

The throat/forcing trope has been so overdone as to have no meaning.
How many actual throats have had actual atheist things forced down them?
I'd like a real number.

I had an EGD once. I vaguely remember trying to talk while my Doctor gently maneuvered the scope down my throat. I think that's when he told the nurse, "10 milligrams more."

28 Jim D  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:42:22pm

re: #15 Maximu§


At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats,

Ha! good one.

29 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:43:04pm

re: #15 Maximu§

Texas has a Christian majority and if you don't like it...move to California! Go ahead and Dance around the Golden Calf!

LGF has a pro-evolution majority. Gonna follow your own logic here then, or what?

30 jaunte  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:43:28pm

re: #27 Timbre

Ok, that's one! (Assuming the scope had no strong opinions).

31 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:43:43pm

re: #24 Gus 802

I think the ability not to "spout off" is not limited to any belief.

Yeah, I can go along with that. But there is one faith of which I know that "spouting off" is considered a commission.

32 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:44:21pm

re: #15 Maximu§

That's not how I see it. If I go to a Christian church, I abide by that churches norms and respect it while within that institution. If one goes to science class one abides by the norms of science which is not to include any religious theories. They should be respected within the context of how they are presented. A child doesn't go to science class for religious teachings any more than a child goes to church for a scientific education.

33 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:44:33pm

re: #16 USBeast

I hope there were no ill effects.

Not that I know of. My parent's and grandparent's Russia stories are always interesting...sad, yet interesting. Sometimes humorous, but rarely.

My grandmother experienced enormous starvation during World War II in Russia; it was obviously nothing like the near-genocide starvation being committed in Gaza, but it was bad nonetheless.

34 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:44:43pm

re: #15 Maximu§

The underlying point is that a board majority wants creationism to be part of the scientific discussion

So whats the problem here?

You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion? Sounds like the Anti-Christians are the problem here. Also, I have some bad news for all you Haters in here.

Texas has a Christian majority and if you don't like it...move to California! Go ahead and Dance around the Golden Calf!

Yo, Max, cool your jets. Faith can't be a part of a scientific discussion because science is based on doubt. Some one makes a statement and declares that is is truth. Some one else calls "Bullsh*t" and demands hard evidence. Thus begins the scientific debate and the search for proof of argument. So far, Evolutionists are piling up more hard evidence than Creationists.

At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats, but it seems like the Atheists have no problem forcing their sick ways down ours, but don't push us too far.

Well, I expect about -17 down-dings for this one. Thats alright, its a badge of honor coming from the lot of you....ding away.

35 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:44:48pm

re: #15 Maximu§
"At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats..." I dinged you up for that part of your comment, but seriously, I don't see atheists as the ones who want the Texas Board meetings to be held under public view. I rather suspect that a LOT of scientists are people of faith, not atheists. The problem is if you say it's OK for a Christian Agenda to play a role in the science curriculum of PUBLIC SCHOOLS, than intellectual honesty would, I think, at least under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, require you to teach other religions in Science class.
And frankly I wouldn't want any children of mine to be taught anything about religion by the Public Schools - I'd take that as my resonsibility.

36 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:47:24pm

Whoa, something got seriously mangled in my last post.

37 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:47:46pm

re: #29 Jimmah
"LGF has a pro-evolution majority" when did we hold that vote - do you recall the thread or date?

38 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:47:48pm

re: #35 realwest

"At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats..." I dinged you up for that part of your comment, but seriously, I don't see atheists as the ones who want the Texas Board meetings to be held under public view. I rather suspect that a LOT of scientists are people of faith, not atheists. The problem is if you say it's OK for a Christian Agenda to play a role in the science curriculum of PUBLIC SCHOOLS, than intellectual honesty would, I think, at least under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, require you to teach other religions in Science class.
And frankly I wouldn't want any children of mine to be taught anything about religion by the Public Schools - I'd take that as my resonsibility.

Exactly. Children of ALL faiths go to public schools. How responsible would it be if Christian ideals were taught to Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.

39 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:47:50pm

I'm always confused as to why a person can come on a thread, insult all of the posters here, and yet still get ding ups. You all just called a bunch of haters, and you ding that up? Strange.

40 HelloDare  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:48:07pm

The microscope will reveal E. coli mcLeroy.

41 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:48:45pm

re: #35 realwest

The problem is if you say it's OK for a Christian Agenda to play a role in the science curriculum of PUBLIC SCHOOLS, than intellectual honesty would, I think, at least under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, require you to teach other religions in Science class.
And frankly I wouldn't want any children of mine to be taught anything about religion by the Public Schools - I'd take that as my resonsibility.

Moreover, the rigors of would require that if a religious view is presented as part of the curriculum, the veracity of the claims of that faith should be exposed to science. Do Christians REALLY want the stories of the bible picked apart and challenged in science class? I doubt it. Careful what you wish for.

42 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:48:50pm

re: #26 BryanS

Problem is, faith is not science. Simple enough, eh?

Only if you have a strong faith. Otherwise you'll need avenues to verify your beliefs.

43 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:49:09pm

re: #15 Maximu§

No, he calls fanatical creationists what they are. Please don't profess to speak for all Christians, because you certainly do not.

44 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:49:38pm

re: #36 USBeast

I knew the "Yo, Max" part was yours. I thought maybe you were being creative with paragraph font and editing.

45 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:51:12pm

re: #37 realwest

"LGF has a pro-evolution majority" when did we hold that vote - do you recall the thread or date?

I can't verify that, actually. But I think it was entirely appropriate to invert his own obnoxious suggestion and chuck it back in his face.

46 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:51:24pm

re: #31 Timbre

Yeah, I can go along with that. But there is one faith of which I know that "spouting off" is considered a commission.

I can think of many but I do think of myself as the quiet type.

47 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:51:59pm

re: #38 traderjoe9

Exactly. Children of ALL faiths go to public schools. How responsible would it be if Christian ideals were taught to Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.

Speaking as an agnostic and a casual student of religions, would you please tell me just what Christian ideal would be harmful to society if taught to Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.?

48 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:52:41pm

re: #42 Mr. In get Mr. Out

Faith is never the same as science--they are mutually exclusive concepts.

49 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:52:47pm

re: #25 traderjoe9

If schools teach Christian principles, does that mean schools should also teach the principles of all other religions and their views on the world's creation?

Nobody's forcing evolution down your throat. You have the option of sending your children to a religious school where evolution is not spoken off, or to a state-funded public school where only scientific ideas independent from religious or cultural beliefs are taught.

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules! No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!

50 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:53:33pm

re: #46 Gus 802

I can think of many but I do think of myself as the quiet type.

But not your P-51 or GTE engines, right? BTW, I'm a Corsair guy.

51 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:53:36pm

The Constitution was designed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

52 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:53:42pm

re: #47 USBeast

Speaking as an agnostic and a casual student of religions, would you please tell me just what Christian ideal would be harmful to society if taught to Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.?

I suspect there might be a problem with the "No god before me" part do you think?

53 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:53:58pm

re: #47 USBeast

Speaking as an agnostic and a casual student of religions, would you please tell me just what Christian ideal would be harmful to society if taught to Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.?

Let me rephrase that. "Christian view of the earths creation." The Judeo-Christian ideals are an inseparable part of our society.

54 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:53:58pm

re: #43 Thanos

No, he calls fanatical creationists what they are. Please don't profess to speak for all Christians, because you certainly do not.

I never said I did....

55 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:54:28pm

re: #15 Maximu§

You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion?

This is like the easiest "What's wrong with this statement" exercise I've seen in a while.

In case there are those having difficulty, a little hint:

You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion?

56 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:54:31pm

re: #50 Timbre

But not your P-51 or GTE engines, right? BTW, I'm a Corsair guy.

Rolls Royce I think. Corsair's are nice.

57 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:54:48pm

A creationist thread? I'm still stuffed with troll from the open thread!

58 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:54:48pm

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules! No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!

Exactly why we have a constitution and individual rights. The Tyranny of the majority can't be forced down other's throats, the boots of the masses cannot march over the individual.

59 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:54:59pm

Gotta go to work - see you guys later. Most of you anyway, no doubt ;)

60 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:55:08pm

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules! No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!

Have you ever head of a thing called the Constitution? I heard its pretty important and that we should strive to abide by it...

61 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:55:22pm

re: #44 Timbre

I knew the "Yo, Max" part was yours. I thought maybe you were being creative with paragraph font and editing.

No, I'm not that clever. I think what happened was that I did not scroll down far enough on Max's quote before inserting my comment. It got stuck in the middle.

62 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:55:54pm

re: #61 USBeast

Preview is your friend.

63 pat  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:56:02pm

I think most States and counties already require such. I am surprised Texas had not.

64 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:56:40pm

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules! No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!

What makes you think that these people pushing our young earth creationism are atheists? I'm pretty sure that what the YEC members of the board had in mind would include no mention of God in the curriculum but a so call "critical" view built around what we see from the Discovery Institute.

No?

65 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:56:44pm

re: #48 BryanS

I never said they were.

66 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:56:52pm

re: #58 Thanos

Exactly why we have a constitution and individual rights. The Tyranny of the majority can't be forced down other's throats, the boots of the masses cannot march over the individual.

How about the Tyranny of the Minority?

67 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:57:34pm

re: #64 Gus 802

What makes you think that these people pushing our refuting young earth creationism are atheists? I'm pretty sure that what the YEC members of the board had in mind would include no mention of God in the curriculum but a so call "critical" view built around what we see from the Discovery Institute.

No?

Correction.

68 Mr Secul  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:57:46pm

re: #60 traderjoe9

Have you ever head of a thing called the Constitution? I heard its pretty important and that we should strive to abide by it...

I don't think that he has much time for it. It gets in his way.

69 Emperor Norton  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:57:50pm

Some Christians have indeed forced their beliefs down people's throats. Remember that little episode called The Spanish Inqusition?

70 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:57:52pm

re: #65 Mr. In get Mr. Out

I never said they were.

Wasn't sure what you meant then.

71 jaunte  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:58:07pm

Being simultaneously a powerful majority and an aggrieved and martyred minority might lead to uncertain reasoning.

72 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:58:31pm

In the case of the Dover school board, meeting were taped, used to create the meeting's minutes and later destroyed. Unfortunately for the board- their attempts to cover their tracks in their blatant attempt to push religion into the school classrooms was still reported by the local reporters as well as recalled by the attendees. Had such a law as this existed in Dover at the time of the Kitzmiller case, they would have been royally screwed.

73 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:58:36pm

re: #52 Thanos

I suspect there might be a problem with the "No god before me" part do you think?

Not a problem, if there is no God.

74 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:58:59pm

re: #66 Maximu§

How about the Tyranny of the Minority?

Well, in that case we should have invited all opinions to be allowed into the Johnson Space Center during the Apollo Moon missions no?

75 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:59:01pm

re: #47 USBeast

Have you read "The Agnostic Reader," edited by S. T. Joshi? I really like it.

76 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:59:43pm

re: #70 BryanS

Wasn't sure what you meant then.

I see it as those with little faith in their religion will look to science to prove their beliefs.

77 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 9:59:46pm

re: #66 Maximu§

How about the Tyranny of the Minority?

How exactly are Christians being oppressed in Texas?

Like I said, the wonderful thing about living in America - you can send your children to any school you desire. Just as you say "if you don't like Christian faith, hit the road," I say, if you don't like evolution, send your child to a private school. Parents have the choice - nobody is forcing anything down their throats.

78 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:00:11pm

re: #66 Maximu§

No such thing, besides it's the fanatical creationists who are the minority, as the elected officials in the state of Texas are going to be shocked to find out after this debacle. It happened in Kansas, and it will happen in TX. I know you think you speak for all the Christians in Texas, but guess what?

You don't even speak for the Christians on your block.

79 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:00:46pm

re: #69 Emperor Norton

Some Christians have indeed forced their beliefs down people's throats. Remember that little episode called The Spanish Inqusition?

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

80 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:00:54pm

re: #62 Sharmuta

Preview is your friend.

Yeah, I know, but it's late and I'm tired.

81 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:01:22pm

re: #76 Mr. In get Mr. Out

I see it as those with little faith in their religion will look to science to prove their beliefs.

Kinda sucks that those people have to go around then trying to corrupt science.

82 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:02:05pm

re: #75 Timbre

Have you read "The Agnostic Reader," edited by S. T. Joshi? I really like it.

No, I haven't but I'll check it out.

83 valuepack  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:02:06pm

re: #15 Maximu§

The underlying point is that a board majority wants creationism to be part of the scientific discussion

So whats the problem here?

You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion?

The problem is that faith has nothing to do with science.

It is quite frequent that a person believes with all their heart & soul that something is right or true, but the rigors of science prove it wrong. that is the nature of science - to strive to see this universe for what it is, and not what we think or wish it to be. to search for immutable truth that is permanent and omnipresent - a very monotheistic idea.

your faith should be a big part of any discussion on history, morality, western philosophy, & even the evolution of scientific thought. but it should not be tangled up in a discussion on modern genetics in a science class.

84 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:02:14pm

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules! No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!

Wrong. The Bill of Rights was passed in order to prevent the Tyranny of the Majority. And the 1st Amendment prevents one religion being favored over another.

You want your particular religion mentioned? You can have it mentioned in comparative religion class - along with all the others. But NO religious dogma belongs in high school science class; only empirical science belongs there.

85 The Shadow Do  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:02:36pm

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules! No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!


That trick knee actin' up on you again?

86 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:02:49pm

re: #78 Thanos

No such thing, besides it's the fanatical creationists who are the minority, as the elected officials in the state of Texas are going to be shocked to find out after this debacle. It happened in Kansas, and it will happen in TX. I know you think you speak for all the Christians in Texas, but guess what?

You don't even speak for the Christians on your block.

Here come the cheap shots.....I'm done talking with you.

87 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:03:01pm

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules!


That pesky Constitution is a problem.

88 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:03:18pm

re: #81 BryanS

Kinda sucks that those people have to go around then trying to corrupt science.

I know, because it certainly isn't necessary. Scientists have been prosecuted as anti-religious before, and it has never turned out well for the church.

89 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:04:16pm

Some people just want to melt down.

90 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:04:35pm

Time for me to get some sleeps, g'nite all

91 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:04:46pm

re: #66 Maximu§

How about the Tyranny of the Minority?

Empirical science is not a popularity contest; it follows the evidence wherever it leads, whether or not that destination pleases some people.

92 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:05:13pm

Tea Party

93 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:05:17pm

re: #88 Mr. In get Mr. Out

I meant persecuted. :)

94 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:06:22pm

re: #86 Maximu§

Nothing cheap about a true fact. Another case where a creationist can't understand reality.

95 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:06:22pm

re: #21 jaunte
Hello my friend! "The throat/forcing trope has been so overdone as to have no meaning.
How many actual throats have had actual atheist things forced down them?"
Well first of all, as you know, that throat forcing thing is simply a metaphor for things of religious value being no longer accepted in Public situations - see, e.g., all the "Christmas Pageants" that are now Winter Pageants, all the town squares where you can no longer decorate a Christmas Tree unless you also have a menorah, something from Islam (can't remember what) and etc. And, of course the number of Christmas Plays that have been changed to Winter Holiday Plays in Public school is also fairly high.
I don't have a number for you on that (and I know you didn't expect one, either) but I fear that the problem is that we don't seem to have civil discourse on these issues very much anymore. People on both sides of the "faith" v "science" issue have had major meltdowns or are so put off by the virulent language used by each side, that many simply don't come onto these threads because of it.
And sometimes people get "carried away" with their own rhetoric to a point where I frequently find myself asking "What was the question again?"!
That Charles used to put Lalo Stinky's axioms on each thread of this nature - felt, I suppose, it necessary to do so - says volumes about the level of rhetoric and name calling out here.
It's really pretty simple for me: I believe in God. I also believe in Jesus Christ. I also believe in Evolution and science. And I believe VERY STRONGLY in our Constitution and specifically the First Amendment thereto "Congress shall make no law abridging the Freedom of ...Religion". But - and it's a big but - I don't think folks who want their Christmas trees put up on the Public Square should be mocked for wanting to do so. And there are some folks out here who enjoy mocking those people of faith who want religion included in public schools. I'm not one of them, but I truly regret that there are people on LGF who mock and make cruel fun of those who do.

96 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:07:44pm

re: #84 Salamantis

Wrong. The Bill of Rights was passed in order to prevent the Tyranny of the Majority. And the 1st Amendment prevents one religion being favored over another.

You want your particular religion mentioned? You can have it mentioned in comparative religion class - along with all the others. But NO religious dogma belongs in high school science class; only empirical science belongs there.

Nice try Sal, but Christians pay taxes too and those schools are ours as much as anyone elses. Understand that I don't want the schools to go to ether side, but to totally silence one side is not the answer.

97 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:07:46pm

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules!

Wrong. There's that whole protection from the tyranny of the majority thing. Think "U.S. Constitution". You might like to read it some day.

No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!

Hilarious. You propose that the "minority" fighting against the un-constitutional and un-American agenda of the "majority" in your little story is fascist element here? I do not think you're being serious here.

98 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:09:09pm

re: #69 Emperor Norton

Some Christians have indeed forced their beliefs down people's throats. Remember that little episode called The Spanish Inqusition?

In a thread like this, everyone expects the Spanish Inquisition!

99 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:09:26pm

re: #49 Maximu§ Please see my #35 - the reason we HAVE a Constitution in the first place is, among other things, having a majority of people hold tyrannical sway over the minority. It's not just a question of "majority" beliefs.

100 USBeast  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:10:18pm

Good night, Lizards.

May whatever beneficent entity/philosophy/political dogma make your tomorrow a happy one.

101 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:11:05pm

re: #66 Maximu§

How about the Tyranny of the Minority?

No. Not anymore than I would expect to allow atheists to have a voice in a Catholic school.

Public schools are just that, public. Thus you have to be as close to secular as possible for a well rounded educational environment that meets the needs of the population without endorsing any religion but allowing a passive practice within said environment. This can include Christian clubs, atheist clubs, Muslim clubs, etc.

The nature of science is for the most part secular and must remain so. Religion can be taught in public schools within a framework of something akin to classes such as modern religion or within the confines of social studies.

102 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:11:10pm

re: #66 Maximu§

How about the Tyranny of the Minority?

Now I am certain you aren't being serious.

103 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:11:28pm

re: #100 USBeast

Later!

104 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:11:35pm

re: #96 Maximu§

Nice try Sal, but Christians pay taxes too and those schools are ours as much as anyone elses. Understand that I don't want the schools to go to ether side, but to totally silence one side is not the answer.

In other words, objective reality is up for sale.

105 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:12:02pm

re: #98 Zimriel

In a thread like this, everyone expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Maybe we should tie the creationists to the dish rack! Let them drip dry! Oh, no, that's much too similar to waterboarding. Nevermind.....

106 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:12:13pm

re: #96 Maximu§

Nice try Sal, but Christians pay taxes too and those schools are ours as much as anyone elses. Understand that I don't want the schools to go to ether side, but to totally silence one side is not the answer.

Muslims pay taxes, Jews pay taxes, Rastafarians pay taxes. Totally silencing religion in a science class is entirely appropriate unless the religion is to provide a falsifiable hypothesis that science can pick apart. Tenets of faith are expected to be accepted without proof--that is not science at all. In a philosophy class perhaps, but there is absolutely no room whatsoever for religion in a science class.

107 HelloDare  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:12:18pm

re: #95 realwest

You make creationists sound so benign. They're not.

108 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:13:53pm

re: #95 realwest

Hello my friend! "The throat/forcing trope has been so overdone as to have no meaning.
How many actual throats have had actual atheist things forced down them?"
Well first of all, as you know, that throat forcing thing is simply a metaphor for things of religious value being no longer accepted in Public situations - see, e.g., all the "Christmas Pageants" that are now Winter Pageants, all the town squares where you can no longer decorate a Christmas Tree unless you also have a menorah, something from Islam (can't remember what) and etc. And, of course the number of Christmas Plays that have been changed to Winter Holiday Plays in Public school is also fairly high.
I don't have a number for you on that (and I know you didn't expect one, either) but I fear that the problem is that we don't seem to have civil discourse on these issues very much anymore. People on both sides of the "faith" v "science" issue have had major meltdowns or are so put off by the virulent language used by each side, that many simply don't come onto these threads because of it.
And sometimes people get "carried away" with their own rhetoric to a point where I frequently find myself asking "What was the question again?"!
That Charles used to put Lalo Stinky's axioms on each thread of this nature - felt, I suppose, it necessary to do so - says volumes about the level of rhetoric and name calling out here.
It's really pretty simple for me: I believe in God. I also believe in Jesus Christ. I also believe in Evolution and science. And I believe VERY STRONGLY in our Constitution and specifically the First Amendment thereto "Congress shall make no law abridging the Freedom of ...Religion". But - and it's a big but - I don't think folks who want their Christmas trees put up on the Public Square should be mocked for wanting to do so. And there are some folks out here who enjoy mocking those people of faith who want religion included in public schools. I'm not one of them, but I truly regret that there are people on LGF who mock and make cruel fun of those who do.

I'll agree with Maximus on one thing. This IS a Christian majority country; people can put up Christmas trees without having to put up a menorah or something else to "get all of the holidays", lest they be offended. I resent people immigrating here and demanding that their faith be immediately recognized.

I'm Jewish, I don't give a shit when I see a Christmas tree. Why should I? People are too damn sensitive.

109 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:13:58pm

re: #96 Maximu§

Nice try Sal, but Christians pay taxes too and those schools are ours as much as anyone elses. Understand that I don't want the schools to go to ether side, but to totally silence one side is not the answer.

The 14th Amendment applies federal laws to the states. And the 1st Amendment forbids favoring one faith over any others, which is exactly wht you mean, because when you say you want religion mentioned in public high school science classes, you mean YOUR religion, and not all those others - which renders your desire unconstitutional under the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause, not to mention the Free Exercise Clause, which would be violated of kids of religion X were forced to listen to religion Y but not their own in public schools. And public schools are indeed part of government, so the 1st Amendment expressly applies.

And there aren't 'two' sides here; there is only evolution, which is supported by ALL the empirical evidence; creationism isn't 'another' side; it's not empirical science, but religious dogma, unsupported by a single shred of empirical evidence, and as such has no place whatsoever in public high school science class.

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:14:13pm

re: #69 Emperor Norton

Some Christians have indeed forced their beliefs down people's throats. Remember that little episode called The Spanish Inqusition?

You don't have to look that far back. The Disco Institute and it's collaborators are displaying it in this age, in real time.

111 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:14:52pm
112 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:15:36pm

re: #111 derbal

Please get your own blog so we can come over and tell you what topics you should post.

113 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:16:49pm

re: #111 derbal

All this freakin' posting on LGF about creationism. What's the freakin' deal? Nothing to write about? God, let it go.
Oh, gee, I said "God".

Maybe you should just freak out some more and get booted and then go to LGF2. Lots of great thinkers there.

Allegedly.

//

114 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:17:10pm

Yep, I knew I was jumping in hot water here, surrounded by people who want to silence us "pesky Christians" but thats Ok...Thy rod and staff comfort me, as does my Smith & Wesson.

115 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:17:47pm

re: #111 derbal

The wallpaper in your dining room is absolutely dog-awful. You need to re-paper right now....yes, while I'm waiting. Hurry it up, I have to be awake in six hours.

116 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:18:25pm

re: #109 Salamantis

The 14th Amendment applies federal laws to the states. And the 1st Amendment forbids favoring one faith over any others, which is exactly wht you mean, because when you say you want religion mentioned in public high school science classes, you mean YOUR religion, and not all those others - which renders your desire unconstitutional under the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause, not to mention the Free Exercise Clause, which would be violated of kids of religion X were forced to listen to religion Y but not their own in public schools. And public schools are indeed part of government, so the 1st Amendment expressly applies.

And there aren't 'two' sides here; there is only evolution, which is supported by ALL the empirical evidence; creationism isn't 'another' side; it's not empirical science, but religious dogma, unsupported by a single shred of empirical evidence, and as such has no place whatsoever in public high school science class.

Looking at the kids I see now-a-days, a few words from the Good Book would'nt hurt them at all Sal.

117 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:18:25pm

re: #102 Slumbering Behemoth

Now I am certain you aren't being serious.

Nah, he's serious. He's pointing to a genuine phenomenon in our current regime, whereby a local minority exerts power beyond its numbers or inherent merit by appealing to more powerful friends from outside.

c.f., Ward Churchill; his university would have shitcanned him long ago if his bigotries were less politically correct.

In the case of Texas, though, whether non-creationists are a minority is a moot point; because creationists are in the legal wrong. And since it's a legal question, this "minority" isn't acting in tyrannical fashion (as university Leftists do, in fact, act).

118 Pietr  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:18:38pm

re: #107 HelloDare

You make creationists sound so benign. They're not.

I saw no such thought in RW's post-would you care to point it out, if you can-hilight/bold it? His thoughts and statement were about the intentional removal of ANY mention of this countries' religious foundation from all public view-at least, that's how I READ it....not interpreted, or READ into it, as you seem to have done......:>((

119 HelloDare  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:18:40pm

re: #111 derbal

All this freakin' posting on LGF about creationism. What's the freakin' deal? Nothing to write about? God, let it go.
Oh, gee, I said "God".

Oh you poor martyr.

Hey, that would be a great name for your new blog.

120 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:18:48pm

Of course- it was SCIENCE that came up with gun powder......

121 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:19:36pm

Ha Ha Ha.... I am looking forward to watching the meetings with my colleagues.

122 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:19:46pm

Long enough to be OT:
0bama reiterates support for a two Palestinian state solution
Well, the headline actually says the "Saudi 'peace' initiative", but as that involves Israel, and a Palestinian state, with Israel supposed to take all the Pali "refugees", it would result in two Palestinian states.

123 The Shadow Do  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:20:04pm

re: #114 Maximu§

Yep, I knew I was jumping in hot water here, surrounded by people who want to silence us "pesky Christians" but thats Ok...Thy rod and staff comfort me, as does my Smith & Wesson.


Do you tote that along with your bible into 10th grade science class? That seems a bit pesky to me, but what the hey...it's your Texas!

124 jaunte  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:20:12pm

re: #95 realwest

I don't think folks who want their Christmas trees put up on the Public Square should be mocked for wanting to do so. And there are some folks out here who enjoy mocking those people of faith who want religion included in public schools. I'm not one of them, but I truly regret that there are people on LGF who mock and make cruel fun of those who do.

I certainly agree with you here. The only quibble I would have with the reasoning is that many Christians tend to define religion in only one way, when the Constitution has a much broader definition. Opening the public square (and school) to all religions, as would be constitutionally correct, would leave no room for any of the secular material that our children need to learn.

125 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:20:12pm

re: #114 Maximu§

Yep, I knew I was jumping in hot water here, surrounded by people who want to silence us "pesky Christians" but thats Ok...Thy rod and staff comfort me, as does my Smith & Wesson.

You make a wonderful martyr :) How exactly does not including a Christian world view in science curriculum silence you?

126 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:20:14pm

re: #73 USBeast

Not a problem, if there is no God.

You miss the point. "No other god before me". That would certainly cause no small amount of conflict with those who have faith in a god other than the Judeo-Christian one.

127 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:20:38pm

re: #114 Maximu§

Yep, I knew I was jumping in hot water here, surrounded by people who want to silence us "pesky Christians" but thats Ok...Thy rod and staff comfort me, as does my Smith & Wesson.

I don't want to shut you up. I disagree with you on this issue but that doesn't mean I want to silence you.

128 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:20:46pm

re: #114 Maximu§

Yep, I knew I was jumping in hot water here, surrounded by people who want to silence us "pesky Christians" but thats Ok...Thy rod and staff comfort me, as does my Smith & Wesson.

And so he reveals that he is getting high on the "persecution" he's receiving.

I declare #114 a Meltdown Post.

129 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:22:22pm

re: #128 Zimriel

And so he reveals that he is getting high on the "persecution" he's receiving.

I declare #114 a Meltdown Post.

Softening, but not a full-blown glowing meltdown.

130 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:22:33pm

re: #111 derbal

All this freakin' posting on LGF about creationism. What's the freakin' deal? Nothing to write about? God, let it go.
Oh, gee, I said "God".

We will 'let it go' when fundamentalist theocrats stop trying to abuse the public school system as a means to indoctrinate the pliable and teacher-trusting minds of America's youth into their pet dogmas, and not before.

This reminds me of a (kinduva) joke:

A guy made a long distance call at a payphone, then hung up. The phone immediately rang, and when the guy answered, he discovered that a long distance telephone operator was on the other end. She told him that his call had run over, and he owed the phone company an additional dime. He insisted that he didn't, but she said that the documented length of the call made the fact indisputable.

So then he asked her why she would call him up and argue with him over such a little thing as a dime, to which she replied that it was the same dime that he was arguing about.

Without another word, he stuck another dime in the phone and hung up the receiver.

131 The Shadow Do  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:22:59pm

re: #128 Zimriel

And so he reveals that he is getting high on the "persecution" he's receiving.

I declare #114 a Meltdown Post.


Second

132 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:23:17pm

re: #107 HelloDare It's sorta funny you said that. No, really.
On one of the other creationist/ID threads, a poster by the nicname of "Teh Flower" said anyone who believes in creationism is an asshole - not those exact words, mind you, but something somewhat more vile.
I've said I believe in God. I can't believe in God without believing that in some way that I am unable to comprehend, God created everything - maybe just a spark or two and then let His invention, EVOLUTION, run it's course. So I suppose that makes me a "creationist" so that means you think I'm an asshole. Teh Flower answered something to the effect that if the shoe fits...

That's what I meant when I said the level of vitriol on some of these threads is IMO, uncalled for and unforgivable (yeah, I know, as a Christian I'm supposed to forgive everyone; but I never said I was a GOOD Christian).

133 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:23:19pm

re: #116 Maximu§

Looking at the kids I see now-a-days, a few words from the Good Book would'nt hurt them at all Sal.

That's not up to you to decide. Especially not for other peoples' kids.

134 Maximu§  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:23:37pm

Looks like the NooB's are piling up on me.....y'all better bring your best game. I don't back down from Punks.

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:23:47pm

re: #117 Zimriel

He may well believe in every word he is typing here, but he is no way serious.

136 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:24:39pm

re: #120 Sharmuta

Of course- it was SCIENCE that came up with gun powder......


That's godless asplodey powder, thank you very much.

137 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:24:39pm

Smith and Wesson? Punks? Is Clint Eastwood in the house?

138 valuepack  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:25:21pm

incidentally, this bill is brilliant. the internet should be used & abused to the fullest extent to shed the light of public scrutiny into every dark corner of this great republic's rapidly growing bureaucracy.

a better informed public makes for a superior democracy. let us learn from their blunders & successes. let us see the corruption.

139 Dustyvet  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:25:28pm

One day God was looking down at Earth and saw all of the evil that was going on. He decided to send an angel down to Earth to check it out. So He called one of His best angels and sent the angel to Earth for a while. When she returned she told God, yes it is bad on Earth, 95% is bad and 5% is good.
Well, He thought for a moment and thought maybe He'd better send down a second angel to get another point of view. So God called another angel and sent him to Earth for a time too. When the angel returned he went to God and told him "Yes, the Earth is in decline. 95% is bad and 5% is good." God said this was not good.

So He decided to send e-mail to the 5% that were good. He wanted to encourage them, give them a little something to help them keep going.

Do you know what that e-mail said?

---

---

---

---

Oh, you didn't get one either, huh? Bummer.

140 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:25:34pm

re: #122 Kosh's Shadow

Long enough to be OT:
0bama reiterates support for a two Palestinian state solution
Well, the headline actually says the "Saudi 'peace' initiative", but as that involves Israel, and a Palestinian state, with Israel supposed to take all the Pali "refugees", it would result in two Palestinian states.

The Saudi Plan calls for Israel to gather in all the Palestinian refugees? Therefore, Obambi reiterates his support for the destruction of Israel.

141 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:26:49pm

re: #114 Maximu§

Yep, I knew I was jumping in hot water here, surrounded by people who want to silence us "pesky Christians" but thats Ok...Thy rod and staff comfort me, as does my Smith & Wesson.

No silencing involved. You can pray and preach all you want - at home, in church, on a street corner, on a soapbox in the park...you just cannot demand carte blanche to religiously indoctrinate other peoples' kids in public schools. Or to teach your pet religious dogmas as empirical facts in public high school science class.

Nor can evolutionary theorists demand carte blanche to instruct church congregations in evolution from the pulpit, if it's any consolation.

142 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:26:53pm

re: #140 traderjoe9

The Saudi Plan calls for Israel to gather in all the Palestinian refugees? Therefore, Obambi reiterates his support for the destruction of Israel.

No wonder he was bowing to the Saudis!

143 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:27:04pm

re: #114 Maximu§

Yep, I knew I was jumping in hot water here, surrounded by people who want to silence us "pesky Christians" but thats Ok...Thy rod and staff comfort me, as does my Smith & Wesson.

And with that, I bid you adieu.

144 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:27:45pm

Well, just to be silly, I don't expect religion in science class anymore than I expect Shakers to have a word in edgewise in Wood Shop. :)

145 The Shadow Do  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:28:14pm

re: #134 Maximu§

Looks like the NooB's are piling up on me.....y'all better bring your best game. I don't back down from Punks.


No pressure to back down. Keep it coming, I expect you are just getting warmed up!

146 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:28:19pm

Tea Party!

147 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:28:27pm

re: #144 Gus 802

Well, just to be silly, I don't expect religion in science class anymore than I expect Shakers to have a word in edgewise in Wood Shop. :)

You expect them to dissent?
;)

148 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:29:23pm

re: #134 Maximu§

Looks like the NooB's are piling up on me.....y'all better bring your best game. I don't back down from Punks.

The constitution and the science are on my side; I don't anticipate needing much more to prevail.

149 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:29:35pm

re: #147 gmsc

You expect them to dissent?
;)

They just turned Wood Shop on its head! :)

Then there was all of that shaking.

//

150 jaunte  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:29:44pm

I'll say again that the combination of claiming a powerful majority status with the attitude of an aggrieved minority leads to distorted thinking.

151 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:30:56pm

re: #140 traderjoe9

The Saudi Plan calls for Israel to gather in all the Palestinian refugees? Therefore, Obambi reiterates his support for the destruction of Israel.

Well, I'm sure that's what the Saudis want; this is what it says:

Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.


And here is the UN resolution, or the relevant part:

Article 11 reads:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

So all "refugees" who had homes in Israel get to come back if they want to. And the Arabs aren't going to give them anywhere else do go, are they?

152 Dustyvet  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:31:53pm

In The Beginning

In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. And the Earth
was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And Satan said, "It doesn't get any better than this."

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

And God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,
and the fruit tree yielding fruit," and God saw that it was good.

And Satan said, "There goes the neighborhood."

And God said, "Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness, and let
them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air and over the cattle, and over all the Earth, and over every creeping
thing that creepeth upon the Earth." And so God created Man in his own
image; male and female created he them. And God looked upon Man and
Woman and saw that they were lean and fit.

And Satan said, "I know how I can get back in this game."

And God populated the earth with broccoli and cauliflower and spinach,
green and yellow vegetables of all kinds, so Man and Woman would live
long and healthy lives.

And Satan created McDonald's. And McDonald's brought forth the 99-cent
double cheeseburger.

And Satan said to Man, "You want fries with that?"

And Man said, "Supersize them." And Man gained 5 pounds.

And God created the healthful yoghurt, that woman might keep her
figure that man found so fair.

And Satan brought forth chocolate. And Woman gained 5 pounds.

And God said, "Try my crispy fresh salad."

And Satan brought forth Ben and Jerry's. And Woman gained 10 pounds.

And God said, "I have sent thee heart-healthy vegetables and olive oil
with which to cook them."

And Satan brought forth chicken-fried steak so big it needed its own
platter.

And Man gained 10 pounds and his bad cholesterol went through the roof.

And God brought forth running shoes and Man resolved to lose those extra
pounds.

And Satan brought forth cable TV with remote control so Man would not
have to toil to change channels between ESPN and ESPN2.

And Man gained another 20 pounds.

And God said, "You're running up the score, Devil." And God brought
forth the potato, a vegetable naturally low in fat and brimming with
nutrition.

And Satan peeled off the healthful skin and sliced the starchy center
into chips and deep-fat fried them. And he created sour cream dip also.

And Man clutched his remote control and ate the potato chips swaddled in
cholesterol. And Satan saw and said, "It is good."

And Man went into cardiac arrest.

And God sighed and created quadruple bypass surgery.

And Satan created HMO's.

153 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:32:17pm

re: #150 jaunte

I'll say again that the combination of claiming a powerful majority status with the attitude of an aggrieved minority leads to distorted thinking.

Someone needs to translate that into German.

154 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:32:25pm

re: #96 Maximu§

Nice try Sal, but Christians pay taxes too and those schools are ours as much as anyone elses. Understand that I don't want the schools to go to ether side, but to totally silence one side is not the answer.

You present a false argument. Christianity and Science are not two opposing "sides". One is faith in the unseeable, the untestable. The other is the study of seeable and testable.

155 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:32:37pm

re: #108 traderjoe9
Well actually I do know some Jews who feel "unsettled" or unhappy when they see Christmas trees, and the like (my first ex-wife was like that) but that doesn't really change anything. For hundreds of years it was "acceptable" that a town or village or NYC (see,e.g. Rockefeller Center) would put up Christmas trees to celebrate the Holiday of Christmas. The issue of whether or not it was proper to do so, or legally permissible to do so, on public land (see, e.g., NOT Rockefeller Center!) is relatively new. And it has pissed off a lot of folks who don't want to see their particular "celebrations" disallowed in their heretofore allowed places.
Nonetheless, the Constitution is the Constitution and the "advocating" of one religion over another is prohibited thereunder. Thus the no teaching of any religion in Public Schools. I do think things have sorta gotten out of hand insofar as Christmas trees go, but not with the teaching of ID in science classes in Public School.

156 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:33:01pm

I'm not going to put up with deranged ranting. When it includes veiled threats about "Smith and Wesson," I don't want this person at my blog any more. End of story.

157 jaunte  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:33:24pm

re: #153 Zimriel

I think they have one word for it. Or maybe a short phrase, where at the end the verb you'll find.

158 valuepack  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:33:34pm

re: #114 Maximu§

yes, yes, if the scripture alone cannot comfort you, turn to the s&w.
/
wwjd indeed.

159 The Shadow Do  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:35:12pm

re: #156 Charles

I'm not going to put up with deranged ranting. When it includes veiled threats about "Smith and Wesson," I don't want this person at my blog any more. End of story.


Thank you

160 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:35:52pm

....and so it goes.
/Namaste, y'all

161 Timbre  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:36:07pm

Well, good night all. And thanks to Charles for a great blog! The Modem of the Western World. (maybe the whole world!)

162 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:36:52pm

re: #151 Kosh's Shadow

So all "refugees" who had homes in Israel get to come back if they want to. And the Arabs aren't going to give them anywhere else do go, are they?

The Arabs are going to accept nothing less than the return of the refugees to Israel. Otherwise, they would have to absorb them - which they won't do. If they don't absorb them, the refugees will remain a political tool to be used against Israel. If Israel accepts them, then Israel will be destroyed.

Its hard to say that Israel should simply say "we don't give a shit" but I don't see any alternatives. Like Lieberman said, "Saying peace 20 times a day won't bring you any closer to peace." The Arabs don't want peace, and will avoid peace by any means possible. Not this generation, and not the next generation.

If the Arabs of Gaza or the West Bank want to be independent - let them. Finish the security fence, dismantle all checkpoints and entrances, stop giving them electricity/aid/supplies and let them be supported by the 21 Arab nations. Israel has their own mouths to feed, let alone feeding those savages.

163 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:37:08pm

re: #124 jaunte
Well

Opening the public square (and school) to all religions, as would be constitutionally correct, would leave no room for any of the secular material that our children need to learn.

I'm not sure what secular material our children need to learn on the public square (!) but I do agree with you. I just wish folks could and would turn down the volume on the vitriol some.

164 Dustyvet  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:37:47pm

A little boy wanted $100 badly and prayed for two weeks but nothing happened.

Then he decided to write GOD a letter requesting the $100. When the postal authorities received the letter addressed to GOD USA, they decided to send it to President Bush.

The President was so impressed, touched, and amused that he instructed his secretary to send the little boy a $5.00 bill. President Bush thought this would appear to be a lot of money to a little boy.

The little boy was delighted with the $5.00 and sat down to write a thank you note to GOD, which read:

Dear GOD,

Thank you very much for sending the money, however, I noticed that for some reason you had to send it through Washington D.C. and, as usual, those idiots deducted $95.00!

165 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:38:05pm

re: #137 Timbre

A real wannabe. Tough talk on the interwebs be cheaper than air.

166 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:39:16pm

re: #163 realwest

Well

I'm not sure what secular material our children need to learn on the public square (!) but I do agree with you. I just wish folks could and would turn down the volume on the vitriol some.

I sometimes see it as "the booze talking." Other times I've been surprised to see that these enraged comments are coming from so called sober people.

167 HelloDare  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:39:21pm

re: #132 realwest

It's sorta funny you said that. No, really.
On one of the other creationist/ID threads, a poster by the nicname of "Teh Flower" said anyone who believes in creationism is an asshole - not those exact words, mind you, but something somewhat more vile.
I've said I believe in God. I can't believe in God without believing that in some way that I am unable to comprehend, God created everything - maybe just a spark or two and then let His invention, EVOLUTION, run it's course. So I suppose that makes me a "creationist" so that means you think I'm an asshole. Teh Flower answered something to the effect that if the shoe fits...

That's what I meant when I said the level of vitriol on some of these threads is IMO, uncalled for and unforgivable (yeah, I know, as a Christian I'm supposed to forgive everyone; but I never said I was a GOOD Christian).

You're complaining about the level of vitriol? These are your words not mine:

So I suppose that makes me a "creationist" so that means you think I'm an asshole.

I don't think anybody on this thread has any problem whatsoever with anybody being a creationist. Why should we? But trying to get creationist curriculum in schools -- that I have a problem with.

168 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:39:31pm

re: #163 realwest

Well

I'm not sure what secular material our children need to learn on the public square (!) but I do agree with you. I just wish folks could and would turn down the volume on the vitriol some.

Excuse me, realwest, but you just dinged up one of the most abusive, vitriol-laden posts in this entire thread.

169 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:40:34pm

re: #152 Dustyvet

Actually, Satan worked through Ted Kennedy to create HMOs. Mary Jo Kopechne was unavailable for comment.

170 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:41:02pm

re: #155 realwest

Well actually I do know some Jews who feel "unsettled" or unhappy when they see Christmas trees, and the like (my first ex-wife was like that) but that doesn't really change anything. For hundreds of years it was "acceptable" that a town or village or NYC (see,e.g. Rockefeller Center) would put up Christmas trees to celebrate the Holiday of Christmas. The issue of whether or not it was proper to do so, or legally permissible to do so, on public land (see, e.g., NOT Rockefeller Center!) is relatively new. And it has pissed off a lot of folks who don't want to see their particular "celebrations" disallowed in their heretofore allowed places.
Nonetheless, the Constitution is the Constitution and the "advocating" of one religion over another is prohibited thereunder. Thus the no teaching of any religion in Public Schools. I do think things have sorta gotten out of hand insofar as Christmas trees go, but not with the teaching of ID in science classes in Public School.

Oh yah...plenty of Jews will make a big fuss about it...liberal Jews (so pretty much the majority of Jews!). I don't support it.

I agree that creationism or ID should NOT be taught in schools, not even close. But I feel that it is pushing it by forcing this country to recognize all cultures. The predominant culture is Christianity by far, and it has always been that way. There's no reason why there shouldn't be a Christmas tree in a public setting.

Why let people immigrate to this country if they're only going to whine and complain about its Christian character?

171 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:41:18pm

re: #156 Charles

I'm not going to put up with deranged ranting. When it includes veiled threats about "Smith and Wesson," I don't want this person at my blog any more. End of story.

It's been a long time coming for Max; anyone who doubts this should just take a tour through his comment history.

172 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:41:41pm

re: #169 Macker

Actually, Satan worked through Ted Kennedy to create HMOs. Mary Jo Kopechne was unavailable for comment.

Actually, that was more Nixon's baby.

173 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:41:57pm

re: #162 traderjoe9

The Paleostinians...or the Arabs for that matter...don't have the balls to just come right out and declare their Paleostinian State in Gaza and the West Bank!

174 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:42:11pm

re: #158 valuepack

yes, yes, if the scripture alone cannot comfort you, turn to the s&w.
/
wwjd indeed.

I didn't see the s&w as the meltdown; I saw the fallback into scripture-quoting (alongside declaring LGF as an anti-Christian site) as the meltdown.

He seems to be, based on his comments tonight, an insecure individual. The s&w was a reference to "clinging" to guns and religion; there was no explicit threat, but there was definitely an undercurrent of armed paranoia.

I expect he had a bad day. I'm not gloating over this one.

"So you get something like we had here tonight - which is the way he wants it. Well... he gits it! And I don't like it any more than yew do."

175 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:43:23pm

Speaking of deranged ranting and Smith & Wesson ...

What ever happened to Florence Henderson and Wesson Oil?

176 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:43:55pm

re: #172 Gus 802

My bad.

177 Spar Kling  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:44:03pm

Just read an interesting quote:


You shouldn't get the impression that the Neo-Darwinism synthesis is a final theory that must be accepted without reservation and that cannot be modified. Religious dogma may have that character, but scientific theories do not. Science progresses because scientists commonly question generally accepted premises and test them by new, ever more accurate methods of observation and experimentation. If scientific ideas ever become dogmatic, then no new discoveries could be made.

But here's my challenge. Who do you think wrote this?

a. A PhD scientist who supports creationism
b. A staunch PhD evolutionist
c. A PhD scientist in support of Intelligent Design
d. A statement issued by the Texas Board of Education
e. None of the above

Do you think statements like this help or hurt science education in Texas?

-sk

178 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:44:19pm

re: #175 karmic_inquisitor

I don't think I want to know.

179 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:44:55pm

re: #176 Macker

My bad.

Yeah. But, as usual, it was partially a bipartisan effort thereabouts.

180 Cognito  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:45:08pm

I'm all for recording, broadcasting, archiving for public review all public bodies doing the public's bidding. Excepting extraordinary circumstances -- security, etc -- it's just a good idea.

181 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:45:34pm

re: #175 karmic_inquisitor

Speaking of deranged ranting and Smith & Wesson ...

What ever happened to Florence Henderson and Wesson Oil?

Are you questioning her Wessonality? She's OK. She's unbreakable!

182 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:45:39pm

re: #167 HelloDare
Excuse me, I was relaying a "converstation which I had with "Teh Flower" and it was to him/her that I directed that comment not to you or anyone else on this board.
Read it again please, and if you still think I called you an asshole I'll apologize, but Teh Flower called me far worse than that before I made that retort.

183 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:46:02pm

re: #162 traderjoe9

The Arabs are going to accept nothing less than the return of the refugees to Israel. Otherwise, they would have to absorb them - which they won't do. If they don't absorb them, the refugees will remain a political tool to be used against Israel. If Israel accepts them, then Israel will be destroyed.

Its hard to say that Israel should simply say "we don't give a shit" but I don't see any alternatives. Like Lieberman said, "Saying peace 20 times a day won't bring you any closer to peace." The Arabs don't want peace, and will avoid peace by any means possible. Not this generation, and not the next generation.

If the Arabs of Gaza or the West Bank want to be independent - let them. Finish the security fence, dismantle all checkpoints and entrances, stop giving them electricity/aid/supplies and let them be supported by the 21 Arab nations. Israel has their own mouths to feed, let alone feeding those savages.

Yes. The world will be upset, but that's it.
Accepting the Saudi "Peace" plan, however, is suicide.
If 0bama is going to try to force it on Israel, it will make him the most anti-Israel president yet.

184 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:46:09pm

re: #177 Spar Kling

Just read an interesting quote:

But here's my challenge. Who do you think wrote this?

a. A PhD scientist who supports creationism
b. A staunch PhD evolutionist
c. A PhD scientist in support of Intelligent Design
d. A statement issued by the Texas Board of Education
e. None of the above

Do you think statements like this help or hurt science education in Texas?

-sk

Still waiting for that long list of peer-reviewed papers you promised to post. Why don't you just admit you were lying about it?

185 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:47:06pm

re: #173 Macker

The Paleostinians...or the Arabs for that matter...don't have the balls to just come right out and declare their Paleostinian State in Gaza and the West Bank!

Because that would define their borders, and they want all of Israel.

186 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:47:16pm

re: #183 Kosh's Shadow

Yes. The world will be upset, but that's it.
Accepting the Saudi "Peace" plan, however, is suicide.
If 0bama is going to try to force it on Israel, it will make him the most anti-Israel president yet.

Would he still make Dhimmi Carter look like a saint?

187 BatGuano  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:47:18pm

re: #169 Macker

Actually, Satan worked through Ted Kennedy to create HMOs. Mary Jo Kopechne was unavailable for comment.

About 5 years ago an idiot reporter said that Ted Kennedy's legislation would have comforted Mary Jo Kopechene in her old age.

188 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:47:43pm

re: #185 Kosh's Shadow

For once I felt like preachin' to the choir.

189 BryanS  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:47:43pm

re: #177 Spar Kling

An honest b) would say that. I say it helps the debate because it explains what science is so that we can clearly defend excluding religion. There is no such thing as a scientific theory that cannot be modified based on new evidence--it happens all the time and from time-to-time it happens to "long settled science".

190 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:48:01pm

re: #174 Zimriel

Small, petty, and insecure. It's abusive remarks over the last couple of days give ample evidence.

Still lurking, Minimus?

191 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:48:16pm

re: #168 Charles
What? I didn't ding up the "smith & wesson" comment. I dinged up IN PART another comment long before it got to the smith and wesson bs, and explained what I had done in my #35.

192 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:48:23pm

re: #187 BatGuano

About 5 years ago an idiot reporter said that Ted Kennedy's legislation would have comforted Mary Jo Kopechene in her old age.

Now THAT is frakkin' EVIL.

193 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:49:15pm

re: #178 Macker

I don't think I want to know.

Well allow me to teach the controversy -

Looks like someone posted a question at yahoo that was deleted by the yahoo admins.

The question: " Do you think Wesson Oil dismissed Florence Henderson because she told to many dirty jokes?"

Looks like The Conspiracy ® doesn't want people asking such questions.

Hmmmm.
/

194 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:49:24pm

re: #186 Macker

Would he still make Dhimmi Carter look like a saint?

It depends on how hard he pushes. Carter set the stage for all this by making Arafat look like something other than a terrorist. (Details are somewhere on nationalreviewonline.com)

I hope we can pick up this tomorrow; I'm way overdue to go to bed.

195 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:49:35pm

re: #177 Spar Kling

Just read an interesting quote:


But here's my challenge. Who do you think wrote this?

a. A PhD scientist who supports creationism
b. A staunch PhD evolutionist
c. A PhD scientist in support of Intelligent Design
d. A statement issued by the Texas Board of Education
e. None of the above

Do you think statements like this help or hurt science education in Texas?

-sk

You've juxtaposed this comment alongside four choices dealing with Intelligent Design. This comment, in the context you've given, implies that developments in biology might imply divine intervention. That hurts science education. Obviously.

But you don't really have a problem with that.

196 HelloDare  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:49:48pm

re: #182 realwest

I did miss a pertinent sentence. Sorry. This thread has made me a little nuts.

197 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:50:14pm

re: #196 HelloDare
No problem.

198 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:50:37pm

OT: Here's an interesting challenge:

Who Said It? Ghandi or Angelina Jolie?

199 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:51:11pm

re: #193 karmic_inquisitor

Well allow me to teach the controversy -

Looks like someone posted a question at yahoo that was deleted by the yahoo admins.

The question: " Do you think Wesson Oil dismissed Florence Henderson because she told to many dirty jokes?"

Looks like The Conspiracy ® doesn't want people asking such questions.

Hmmmm.
/

Hmmmm is right. I'll try not to think about whether said jokes were about the Wesson Oil...or her TV hubby.

200 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:53:21pm

re: #191 realwest

What? I didn't ding up the "smith & wesson" comment. I dinged up IN PART another comment long before it got to the smith and wesson bs, and explained what I had done in my #35.

That post that you thought was so pertinent is full of insults and abuse, and a lot of it is directed straight at me. I'm offended that you think it's something you should approve of.

201 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:53:37pm

re: #181 gmsc

Are you questioning her Wessonality? She's OK. She's unbreakable!

[Video]

You know what - the world needs more Wessonality.

That should be the theme word for the Republican revival - "Wessonality" vs. "Hope and Change"

/ It would be just as effective as running against volcano monitoring while injecting Biblical interpretation into science class.

202 BatGuano  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:54:40pm

re: #198 gmsc

I only get six right. But Angelina is hot!

203 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:55:04pm

re: #177 Spar Kling

Just read an interesting quote:

But here's my challenge. Who do you think wrote this?

a. A PhD scientist who supports creationism
b. A staunch PhD evolutionist
c. A PhD scientist in support of Intelligent Design
d. A statement issued by the Texas Board of Education
e. None of the above

Do you think statements like this help or hurt science education in Texas?

-sk

That quote answers itself. Science itself is fluid and open to new data and revisions to previously held conclusions. What opens science up to further review and criticism is the peer reviewed structure within the scientific community. Creationism on the other hand is highly dogmatic and based on non-peer reviewed rhetoric and anecdotal evidence based on findings by highly unprofessional practitioners.

204 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:55:37pm

re: #202 BatGuano

I only get six right. But Angelina is hot!

That is the one area she clearly differs from Ghandi.
;)

205 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:57:13pm

Note to whomever made tooth nerves. Next time "design" them so they don't hurt as much when teeth go bad. //

206 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:58:32pm

re: #15 Maximu§

"You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion? Sounds like the Anti-Christians are the problem here. Also, I have some bad news for all you Haters in here."

If a religious believer wants his Creation Myth taught as science in a science classroom, then yes, he is a fanatic. Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Flying Spaghetti Monsterist, it matters not.

You guys really should be careful what you ask for. Do you really want your beliefs to be mocked unmercifully in a classroom setting, when that rare scientifically astute teacher gets into the Evolution unit?

Why are you Creationists so damn lazy that you demand the government do your religious indoctrination for you? Can't you teach your own kids at home, or send the little blighters to Sunday School?

207 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 10:59:02pm

re: #198 gmsc

Hey I got 7/11 right.

Hmmmmm....

208 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:00:30pm

re: #183 Kosh's Shadow

Take a look at this article that I put in the spinoffs....I suggest that you check your B/P...mine hasn't started to come down yet, and I nearly washed my mouth out with soap for what I have been saying. Yes, it is that bad, and The One and Shrillary are aiming to destroy Israel.

Sorry to go OT....

209 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:00:38pm

re: #206 Alberta Oil Peon

This person is no longer welcome to post at LGF, after numerous comments like that one -- and after his nasty abusive comments in favor of the anti-vaccination madness.

210 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:02:20pm

re: #183 Kosh's Shadow

Yes. The world will be upset, but that's it.
Accepting the Saudi "Peace" plan, however, is suicide.
If 0bama is going to try to force it on Israel, it will make him the most anti-Israel president yet.

I'm extremely glad that Lieberman is the Foreign Minister. Sure, I have some reservations about him - but he has the right idea. It would have been a terrible four years had Livni been elected and was the one cooperating with the White House.

Hopefully Netanyahu grows some balls this time around.

211 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:03:22pm

OK - who said this - Angelina or Mahatma ...

"Brad - do you think we can buy another man made island to show how wonderfully green we are as we fly from LA in our private jet to visit it a few times a year?"

[jeopardy theme]

212 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:04:13pm

re: #202 BatGuano

I only get six right. But Angelina is hot!

re: #207 Macker

Hey I got 7/11 right.

Hmmmmm....

gmsc: 4
BatGuano: 6
Macker: 7

Can anyone beat Macker?

213 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:04:30pm

re: #194 Kosh's Shadow

It depends on how hard he pushes. Carter set the stage for all this by making Arafat look like something other than a terrorist. (Details are somewhere on nationalreviewonline.com)

I hope we can pick up this tomorrow; I'm way overdue to go to bed.

As did Sarkozy when he visited his tomb last year. I don't like the French much...

Laila Tov!

214 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:06:43pm

re: #200 Charles
Charles, I'm astonished that you think I would upding a post that was directed at insulting you - I said 'At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats...' "I dinged you up for that part of your comment,". That was NEVER intended by me to insult you at all. And I'd respectfully ask you to note that Salamantis, Slumbering Beheomoth, juante and Timber and others all dinged my comment up. I'm quite certain that they didn't think I was dinging up a post that was so full of insults and abuse, any of which was directed straight at you.

215 BatGuano  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:07:14pm

re: #211 karmic_inquisitor

OK - who said this - Angelina or Mahatma ...

"Brad - do you think we can buy another man made island to show how wonderfully green we are as we fly from LA in our private jet to visit it a few times a year?"

[jeopardy theme]

Ghandi?

216 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:09:07pm

re: #212 gmsc

I suck with just 5.

I guess I never realized what a pretentious prick Gandhi was.

/

217 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:09:12pm

re: #15 Maximu§
re: #49 Maximu§


Religion belongs in religious classes or church
Science belongs in science class
Everything's game at home or most everywhere else

In public schools (which the Texas Board of Education sets the instructional standards for in TX), some are trying to add religious instruction (creationism) to the teaching of "hard" science (the theory of evolution) or supplant it altogether. Does this not bother you?

Personally, I think it stinks to high heaven (and I consider myself as a non-practicing Methodist)....religious stuff (such as YEC) has no place in a science class.

218 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:09:57pm

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

219 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:10:02pm

re: #214 realwest

Charles, I'm astonished that you think I would upding a post that was directed at insulting you - I said 'At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats...' "I dinged you up for that part of your comment,". That was NEVER intended by me to insult you at all. And I'd respectfully ask you to note that Salamantis, Slumbering Beheomoth, juante and Timber and others all dinged my comment up. I'm quite certain that they didn't think I was dinging up a post that was so full of insults and abuse, any of which was directed straight at you.

I suggest you re-read that post that you updinged. It's full of insults, and I'm astonished that you don't even seem to see them.

220 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:10:26pm

re: #210 traderjoe9

I'm extremely glad that Lieberman is the Foreign Minister. Sure, I have some reservations about him - but he has the right idea. It would have been a terrible four years had Livni been elected and was the one cooperating with the White House.

Hopefully Netanyahu grows some balls this time around.

That's difficult in a parliamentary system. He was to deal with Shas, for instance, who last I looked were a bunch of selfish, shortsighted, marginally-patriotic crooks. I see via some Googling that one of their MPs, Solomon Benizri, just got convicted 1 April.

221 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:11:07pm

It's hard to believe that it's 2009 and we still have people that think like McLeroy let alone in a position of power and endorsed by said Governor Perry.

222 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:12:32pm

re: #221 Gus 802

It's hard to believe that it's 2009 and we still have people that think like McLeroy let alone in a position of power and endorsed by said Governor Perry.

Rick Perry appointed this guy as chairman of the Texas DOE twice -- even after his young earth creationist views were exposed. This is not an accident. The support for creationism in Texas is coming from the highest levels of the GOP.

223 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:12:54pm

re: #221 Gus 802

It's hard to believe that it's 2009

I have trouble with that too. Benizri was of course convicted LAST year. I go bed now

nini lizards

224 Dustyvet  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:12:58pm

re: #218 gmsc

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

I loaned a picture book about Ghandi to my grand son, when he was 5, he had the book for about 3 months. He cried when I took the book home. This is what happens when you take Ghandi from a baby...:)

225 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:13:30pm

re: #224 Dustyvet

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

226 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:13:43pm

re: #208 NY Nana

Take a look at this article that I put in the spinoffs....I suggest that you check your B/P...mine hasn't started to come down yet, and I nearly washed my mouth out with soap for what I have been saying. Yes, it is that bad, and The One and Shrillary are aiming to destroy Israel.

Sorry to go OT....

Yup. What I love about Lieberman is that there is NO WAY that he is going to take a backseat as foreign minister. He is loud, outspoken, and will absolutely make sure that he is heard and that he is participating. And at that - I don't believe he is quite as weak as Bibi was and probably still is. I think that Lieberman will really define Israel the next four years...

227 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:14:02pm

Will heads explode at MSNBC?

228 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:14:35pm

re: #225 Macker

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Not another boo thread ...

229 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:14:42pm

re: #222 Charles

Rick Perry appointed this guy as chairman of the Texas DOE twice -- even after his young earth creationist views were exposed. This is not an accident. The support for creationism in Texas is coming from the highest levels of the GOP.

I know. Trust me I do engage in a lot of self censorship. That the GOP is endorsing these idiots is troubling and only points out to future problems for that party.

230 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:15:12pm

re: #224 Dustyvet

I loaned a picture book about Ghandi to my grand son, when he was 5, he had the book for about 3 months. He cried when I took the book home. This is what happens when you take Ghandi from a baby...:)

I had a similar incident happen trying to read a story about Australia to a kid who said it was his least favorite book. He said, "What did you bring that book, which I didn't want to be read to from out of, about Down Under, up for?"

231 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:15:17pm

re: #209 Charles

It's a damn shame when Lizards go bad...

232 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:17:03pm

Interesting:

On the eve of the 2009 elections Haaretz published that Liebrman was involved with the Kach (Hebrew: כ"ך‎) party of Rabbi Meir Kahane shortly after his immigration to Israel in 1979, based on the testimony of two activists in the movement, Elazar Eskin and Yosef Dayan, and was an actual member of the party for a brief time. Lieberman refused to respond and called the publication an "orchestrated provocation".[55][56] Kach was barred from participating in the election in 1988 under the revised Knesset Elections Law banning parties that incited racism and was declared a terrorist organization in 1994.[57][58]

233 Gus  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:19:46pm

"Why they say that we're made up of ribonucleic acid. Now you know that what acid can do to things and you know darn well that we can't be made up of acid!"

"My ancestors weren't no damn monkeys!"

More or less quotes from "the majority."

234 Dustyvet  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:20:14pm

re: #225 Macker

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

When you exit the boat, you will notice a dock on your left and a dock on your right, we call that a pair-a-docks.

235 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:20:29pm

re: #224 Dustyvet

I loaned a picture book about Ghandi to my grand son, when he was 5, he had the book for about 3 months. He cried when I took the book home. This is what happens when you take Ghandi from a baby...:)

He'll probably be traumatized now!

Because you took something he loves away from him, he'll probably be unlike all the other kids.

What if that boy grows up and wants to take dance class even though all his friends are playing football?

236 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:20:39pm

re: #222 Charles

Rick Perry appointed this guy as chairman of the Texas DOE twice -- even after his young earth creationist views were exposed. This is not an accident. The support for creationism in Texas is coming from the highest levels of the GOP.

We saw the same crap here in California as the Republican Party cynically courted the "grass roots" in the early 1990s with dreams of creating a permanent majority only to end up the permanent minority.

The evolutionists organized and got on school boards and did all sorts of damage, which then moved most people's idea of what Republicans were from being Goldwater/Reagan western individualists to being Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson evangelicals.

Same cynical ploy to give them some red meat to shew on so they deliver votes.

And they don't deliver votes - it took a couple of sex scandals to put Pelosi in power.

237 gmsc  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:21:09pm

re: #234 Dustyvet

When you exit the boat, you will notice a dock on your left and a dock on your right, we call that a pair-a-docks.

Puns are for kids, not for groan adults.

238 Dustyvet  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:22:58pm

re: #237 gmsc

Puns are for kids, not for groan adults.

silly rabbit...:)

239 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:23:50pm

ñre: #234 Dustyvet

When you exit the boat, you will notice a dock on your left and a dock on your right, we call that a pair-a-docks.

And all this time I thought a pair-a-docks was actually a paramedics.

240 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:24:45pm

re: #219 Charles
Charles, I think I can say with complete honesty that there are few if any LGFers out here who have supported you on all issues for longer or more strongly than I have. I explained why I dinged up A PART of that comment, and that a number of folks out here dinged up that post #35 of mine, none of whom apparently saw that it was full of insults or personal abuse directed at you either(
although Salamantis did ding up BOTH my comment #35 AND your comment #200 for reasons I am unable to fathom). I didn't intend to in anyway insult or attack or for that matter agree with anyone who was insulting or attacking you - I thought my comment was a pretty clearly extremely limited upding of that post was pretty clear as to why I updinged it, AND then went on to show him why the rest of what he posted was bullshit.
I'm sorry that you are offended. But I will reiterate my point: I have consistently and strongly supported you on every issue on LGF for five years plus and I am shocked that you would think I'd cheapshot you or something.

241 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:25:38pm

re: #209 Charles

This person is no longer welcome to post at LGF, after numerous comments like that one -- and after his nasty abusive comments in favor of the anti-vaccination madness.

My bad. I didn't realize he had already self-immolated. It can be hard to keep up sometimes.

242 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:27:46pm

FIRST SERIOUS POST re: Creation vs. Evolution
--
I've never felt comfortable with mixing science and religion in the same educational setting. My folks sent me to a parochial school for a couple of years, after we came back to the States in 1972, so I could receive a religious upbringing. I had a heck of a time adjusting to the setting, due to my Navy Brat background. But I did adjust. I did learn something which has become valuable to me: Faith.
My dad sat on that parochial school's board, and he saw a bunch of BS that he didn't care for, and he decided with my mom's concurrence that we (my older brother, my younger sister, and I) would do just fine in the public school, and that's where I learned science.
I'm just glad my parents didn't raise me to be a zealot.

Hope I didn't offend anyone here!

243 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:28:59pm

re: #234 Dustyvet

When you exit the boat, you will notice a dock on your left and a dock on your right, we call that a pair-a-docks.

No, that's when Ben Casey meets Kildare.

244 zombie  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:29:44pm

National standards in various fields often originate with and rely on specific states.

For example, the organic certification of foods, on which now rests a vast multi-billion dollar industry, began with The Oregon Tilth and the California Certified Organic Farmers, which devised the first standards for what constitutes "organic." For years, food manufacturers tried to follow the Oregon standards if they wanted to get that lucrative organic label. Now that there is a national standard (partly based on the Oregon and California standards), the "Oregon Tilth" stamp of approval is not as important, but some companies still seek it out.

When it comes to school textbooks, the three big states are Texas, New York and California -- precisely because those states hgave far and away the most kids in public schools. Textbook manufacturers don't want to have to make 50 different custom textbooks, one for each state; instead, they will make three different ones at most, each designed to satisfy the political demands of the school boards in Texas, New York and California. That way, they're guaranteed the most sales.

But what this means is that the other 47 states usually end up settling for textbooks which were originally designed to TX, NY or CA standards. It's either that, or make your own textbooks -- a pretty expensive proposition. So, most states settle for one of the other books -- Texas textbooks being the most commonly adopted.

So this problem with agenda-driven creationists doctoring the content of Texas science textbooks in no simple "local issue," nor is it a minor matter. It had national implications. Because whatever garbage is forced into the Texas textbooks will end up being read all over the country (mostly midwest and south).

America went from being #1 in the world when it comes to science education to being an international laughingstock. True, much of that decline was attributable to left-wing educational experimentation that failed utterly in every way except to increase the indoctrination quotient. But it was partly due to other political meddling in science teaching, most notably the anti-science mania called creationism.

This new drive by the Texas school board will not only fail to improve our national science education, but it will certainly exacerbate the situation and make the US international rankings drop even further.

Therefore, we must fight this madness with everything we've got, if we want to regain our leadership position in scientific research.

245 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:29:56pm

re: #214 realwest

Max basically said Charles was running a hate site, and I tried to point this out, which was apparently ignored by you.

246 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:31:08pm

re: #212 gmsc

gmsc: 4
BatGuano: 6
Macker: 7

Can anyone beat Macker?

7/11 for me. And I agree that Angelina is hotter than Gandhi. And less dead.

Jeeze, I originally typed "hooter." That's undoubtedly true, too.

247 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:31:25pm

Sleepy B got it though- good on ya, {SB}.

248 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:32:00pm

re: #246 Alberta Oil Peon

Hey, that makes you the Canadian Champion and me the US Champion!
Unless of course other LIzards step up!

249 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:33:53pm

re: #245 Sharmuta Sharm - I didn't see any post by you that said his post #15 said Charles was running a hate site. The rest of the folks who updinged me obviously didn't see my comment as being in support of such a thing; that's not what I intended and I said I updinged a VERY LIMITED part of that post and explained why. I was NOT attacking Charles or LGF and am astounded that YOU would think I was.

250 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:34:14pm

re: #249 realwest

Then you didn't read it closely enough.

251 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:35:17pm

re: #249 realwest

I was NOT attacking Charles or LGF and am astounded that YOU would think I was.

Where did I say this? You updinged a comment that insulted our host and fellow Lizards. This is all I've alluded to.

252 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:36:38pm
Also, I have some bad news for all you Haters in here.

You think this is worthy of an upding?! That we're all a bunch of haters in here, and that Charles allows such a thing?!

253 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:38:17pm

re: #251 Sharmuta You said, after my comment, "that
Max basically said Charles was running a hate site, and I tried to point this out, which was apparently ignored by you."

254 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:38:24pm

re: #226 traderjoe9

I hope that Bibi will actually do what he said he would at least a majority of the time. I remember his first go-round as PM...and I like Lieberman. He takes no nonsense from anyone.

The liberals must be cooking up some sort of attempt to stop him.

Can't see straight after finishing the Passover shopping and spending time with the busiest 2 1/2 year old grandson on the planet! We are still ROTFL re his antics, and now, if I don't go to sleep? My forehead will look awful from falling onto the keyboard!

Layla tov! And g'nite to all the Lizards.

Sweet dreams!

255 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:40:46pm

re: #249 realwest

Sharm - I didn't see any post by you that said his post #15 said Charles was running a hate site. The rest of the folks who updinged me obviously didn't see my comment as being in support of such a thing; that's not what I intended and I said I updinged a VERY LIMITED part of that post and explained why. I was NOT attacking Charles or LGF and am astounded that YOU would think I was.

A ding is a ding, RW. It applies to the entire post, even if you only intended it to apply to a single sentence. If you come across a single sentence in another post that stands out, either for good or bad, better to simply quote that sentence alone, and praise it or condemn it, rather than giving the entire post a ding that may be misconstrued.

256 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:41:26pm

re: #240 realwest

For my part, Real, I gave your post an upding because of the common sense of it. It had nothing to do with Maxi.

257 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:41:27pm

re: #252 Sharmuta
"Also, I have some bad news for all you Haters in here.
You think this is worthy of an upding?! That we're all a bunch of haters in here, and that Charles allows such a thing?!"
YOU obviously didn't read what I said in my #35 or if you did you surely didn't read it the way juante, Salamantis, Sleeping Behomoth, Timber, Gus 802 or others read it.

258 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:42:38pm

re: #257 realwest

I don't think your ding was justified. And I did read your comment. I didn't see the need to ding it.

259 Macker  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:43:40pm

re: #254 NY Nana

This message is for all my Jewish friends here at LGF, and to all Jews everywhere. I STAND WITH ISRAEL! and Happy Passover!

260 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:45:37pm

re: #247 Sharmuta

Wait, what did I get? Dangit! I was at the store getting beer, is it too late to claim it?

///story of my life, look away for two seconds and opportunity just walks right by me...

261 realwest  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:46:13pm

re: #256 Slumbering Behemoth Do you think - having read my comment - that I was updinging him for insulting Charles?

262 Spar Kling  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:47:13pm

re: #189 BryanS

An honest b) would say that. I say it helps the debate because it explains what science is so that we can clearly defend excluding religion. There is no such thing as a scientific theory that cannot be modified based on new evidence--it happens all the time and from time-to-time it happens to "long settled science".

You're absolutely right, BryanS! The quote comes from a book I'm reading by Richard Morris called "The Evolutionists, The Struggle for Darwin's Soul" (2001), page 62. But as we all know, some Evolutionists are afraid to question parts of evolution and won't tolerate those who do.

Here's another quote from the same book:

Today scientists are arguing about evolution as fiercely as ever. Naturally, they are not debating the question of whether of not evolution happened . . . Although there is broad agreement among evolutionary scientists on many points, there are important scientific issues that remain unsettled. I have written this book to explain what the arguments are about.

Scientists expect to be skeptical and involved in controversy. So should the students learning science. Students would be better served if the various questions and controversies about the theory of evolution are taught, rather than a dogmatic teaching and rote acceptance, which is very dull indeed.

Creationism does not belong in science classes. But I would suggest that Von Helmont's, Redi's, and Pasteur's experiments regarding the spontaneous generation controversy, Lamarckian evolution, and other historical controversies should most certainly be taught. Certainly the controversies concerning global warming, genetic engineering, cloning, and stem cell research cannot be ignored either.

-sk

263 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:47:17pm

re: #259 Macker

This message is for all my Jewish friends here at LGF, and to all Jews everywhere. I STAND WITH ISRAEL! and Happy Passover!

Thank you so much, Macker. I will send you a virtual matzo ball on Wednesday. ;)

And re standing with Israel?

Sweet dreams, all!

264 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:48:11pm

re: #260 Slumbering Behemoth

#39, Dear.

re: #261 realwest

When in the past I've found my ding wasn't well thought out, I've corrected it instead of defending it. The fact of the matter is that even if there was something there with which you agreed, it was a highly insulting comment to Charles and LGFers.

265 traderjoe9  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:49:05pm

re: #254 NY Nana

I hope that Bibi will actually do what he said he would at least a majority of the time. I remember his first go-round as PM...and I like Lieberman. He takes no nonsense from anyone.

The liberals must be cooking up some sort of attempt to stop him.

Can't see straight after finishing the Passover shopping and spending time with the busiest 2 1/2 year old grandson on the planet! We are still ROTFL re his antics, and now, if I don't go to sleep? My forehead will look awful from falling onto the keyboard!

Layla tov! And g'nite to all the Lizards.

Sweet dreams!

I'm also pretty tired; mom made me clean every square inch of the house for Passover next week! :-)

Layla Tov!

266 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:54:11pm

re: #255 Alberta Oil Peon

A ding is a ding, RW. It applies to the entire post, even if you only intended it to apply to a single sentence. If you come across a single sentence in another post that stands out, either for good or bad, better to simply quote that sentence alone, and praise it or condemn it, rather than giving the entire post a ding that may be misconstrued.

I agree.

267 NY Nana  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:56:41pm

re: #265 traderjoe9

I'm also pretty tired; mom made me clean every square inch of the house for Passover next week! :-)

Layla Tov!

Wanna come here and help? Our youngest son is coming Sunday to help finish, etc., and then the changeover to the Pesach things. Paper plates, etc., until Wednesday at lunch. I complain, etc., re all the work, but secretly really love it, and the 2 1/2 year old goes to a Chabad Gan, and is working on the 4 questions. Our almost-9 year old granddaughter will help him. When he did it last night, he was so silly that I had to bite my tongue!

Got to go to sleep..it is nearly 3 AM here.

So what time can you get to NY to help? ;)

268 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:57:37pm

re: #261 realwest

Do you think - having read my comment - that I was updinging him for insulting Charles?

No, I do not. In my short time here I see you as good people, and decent in your disagreements when you have any.

Maxi's post did not deserve an upding, it was nasty and abusive. But whatever, I'm not interested in haranguing you about it. No doubt I have likely done the same.

I know I have no say in what happens here, but I say we let it drop.

269 MrPaulRevere  Thu, Apr 2, 2009 11:59:10pm

re: #268 Slumbering Behemoth

"but I say we let it drop." Sage advice, that.

270 realwest  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 12:02:11am

re: #268 Slumbering Behemoth I agree with you, I say we let it drop.

271 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 12:07:41am

re: #269 MrPaulRevere

Realwest is good peeps, from what I have gathered. Not a melt down, abusive, hating type.

He made a ding
It ain't no thing
Let's move on
To the next....

///Aw! I can't rhyme for shit!

272 Brit in Japan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 1:04:54am

re: #15 Maximu§

The underlying point is that a board majority wants creationism to be part of the scientific discussion

So whats the problem here?

You call the Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion? Sounds like the Anti-Christians are the problem here. Also, I have some bad news for all you Haters in here.

Texas has a Christian majority and if you don't like it...move to California! Go ahead and Dance around the Golden Calf!

At least we Christians never forced our ways down others throats, but it seems like the Atheists have no problem forcing their sick ways down ours, but don't push us too far.

Well, I expect about -17 down-dings for this one. Thats alright, its a badge of honor coming from the lot of you....ding away.

#2 from the playbook - "Stop bashing Christians".

The lie that you guys never seem to get tired of spouting will be exposed every single time you try it here: This is not about atheism and Christians. The Pope and millions of Christians around the world accept the facts of evolution. Which cult are you in?

Believe what you like, but lying to children is a sin.

BiJ.

273 Brit in Japan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 1:19:47am

re: #95 realwest
I don't think folks who want their Christmas trees put up on the Public Square should be mocked for wanting to do so. And there are some folks out here who enjoy mocking those people of faith who want religion included in public schools. I'm not one of them, but I truly regret that there are people on LGF who mock and make cruel fun of those who do.

I'm fully with you on the Christmas trees - and I'll keep calling it Christmas forever! But this is a different issue.

Anyone who wants to knowingly teach lies to children and show pictures from the Flintstones deserves everything they get.

Understand this is not just a parent sending their children to Sunday School and telling them Biblical stories. They want to make up lies about the facts of evolution and present them in a classroom as "problems with the theory". When one examines every single one of these "problems" with evolution posited by these liars, they fall apart without exception.

Believe what you like, but lying to children is a sin.

BiJ.

274 Brit in Japan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 1:22:01am

re: #116 Maximu§

Looking at the kids I see now-a-days, a few words from the Good Book would'nt hurt them at all Sal.

Play #7 - the punt. "You are evil if you believe in evolution".

GAZE.

275 Brit in Japan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 1:29:21am

re: #132 realwest

It's sorta funny you said that. No, really.
On one of the other creationist/ID threads, a poster by the nicname of "Teh Flower" said anyone who believes in creationism is an asshole - not those exact words, mind you, but something somewhat more vile.
I've said I believe in God. I can't believe in God without believing that in some way that I am unable to comprehend, God created everything - maybe just a spark or two and then let His invention, EVOLUTION, run it's course. So I suppose that makes me a "creationist" so that means you think I'm an asshole. Teh Flower answered something to the effect that if the shoe fits...

That's what I meant when I said the level of vitriol on some of these threads is IMO, uncalled for and unforgivable (yeah, I know, as a Christian I'm supposed to forgive everyone; but I never said I was a GOOD Christian).

No, the Deception Institute has fooled you.

If you accept that evolution is real, and is happening all around you right now, and has been happening for millions of years, then congratulations - you are an "Evil Darwinianist" as the creationists like to call them.

Creationists believe the world is around 6000 years old and every species was created in a couple of days exactly as they are now. They will not accept that evolution is real.

The facts of evolution, and science, do not tell us how it was all created. Some people have atheist hypothesis. Some people believe in a divine creator.

This is why millions of Christians around the world, including the Pope, accept the facts of evolution.

Only the liars at the Deception Institute want to make you think you can't believe in evolution and God.

BiJ.

276 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 2:22:35am

re: #262 Spar Kling

Scientists expect to be skeptical and involved in controversy. So should the students learning science. Students would be better served if the various questions and controversies about the theory of evolution are taught, rather than a dogmatic teaching and rote acceptance, which is very dull indeed.

Creationism does not belong in science classes. But I would suggest that Von Helmont's, Redi's, and Pasteur's experiments regarding the spontaneous generation controversy, Lamarckian evolution, and other historical controversies should most certainly be taught. Certainly the controversies concerning global warming, genetic engineering, cloning, and stem cell research cannot be ignored either.

-sk

From "Why Evolution Is True", by Jerry A, Coyne (Viking, 2009):

"Now, when we say that "evolution is true", what we mean is that the major tenets of Darwinism have been verified. Organisms evolved, they did so gradually, lineages split into different species from common ancestors, and natural selection is the major engine of adaptation. No serious biologist doubts these propositions. But this doesn't mean that Darwinism is scientifically exhausted, with nothing left to understand. Far from it. Evolutionary biology is teeming with questions and controversies."

"Critics of evolution seize upon these controversies, arguing that they show that something is wrong with the theory of evolution itself. But this is specious. There is no dissent among serious biologists about the major claims of evolutionary theory - only about the dtails of how evolution occurred, and about the relative roles of various evolutionary mechanisms. Far from discrediting evolution, the "controversies" are in fact the sign of a vibrant, thriving field. What moves science forward is ignorance, debate, and the testing of alternative theories with observation and experiments. A science without controversy is a science without progress."

"Naturalism is the view that the only way to understand our universe is through the scientific method. Materialism is the idea that the only reality is the physical matter of the universe, and that everything else, including thoughts, will, and emotions, comes from physical laws acting on that matter. The mssage of evolution, and all of science, is one of naturalistic materialism. Darwinism tells us that, like all species, human beings arose from the working of blind, purposeless forces over eons of time. As far as we can determine, the same forces that gave rise to ferns, mushrooms, lizards, and squirrels also produced us. Now, science cannot completely exclude the possibility of supernatural explanation. It is possible - though very unlikely - that our whole world is controlled by elves. But supernatural explanations like these are simply never neded; we manage to understand the natural world just fine using reason and materialism. Furthermore, supernatural explantions always mean the end of inquiry; that's the way God wants it, end of story. Science, on the other hand, is never satisfied; our studies of the universe will continue until humans go extinct."

"We are the one creature to whom natural selection has bequesthed a brain complex enough to comprehend the laws that govern the universe. And we should be proud that we are the only species that has figured out how we came to be."

277 horse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 4:38:09am

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules!

Ah, that is incorrect. The governing structures of our representative republic are designed to blunt the tyranny of the majority over smaller groups. Sometimes it fails, but that is a bad thing when it does fail. A phrase like "and the majority make the rules!" is something you hear in support of collectivist dogma, and is almost always something undesirable. When you make a statement like that, it has the affect of painting whatever else you say into the same undesirable corner.

We have the freedom to send our children to private religious schools if we do not want to send them to the government funded public system. We just have to pay the private religious schools out of private funds because the government is not allowed to directly support religious education. If we value our liberty, we wouldn't have it any other way.

278 horse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 4:41:49am

re: #97 Slumbering Behemoth

Sorry, I inadvertently dittoed your reply, hadn't made it that far down the comments when I felt the need to respond to 49.

279 horse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 4:48:42am

re: #244 zombie

At the very least I hope the text book manufacturers make Texas pay through the nose for their non-standard "customized" text books. I just hope they put the right title on them, Science - King James Version.

280 Emerald  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 5:44:10am

re: #7 Sharmuta

This could be said for school boards across the country, though. Very few people have any idea who is on their school boards, or what they think. More people everywhere need to step up their civic participation and pay attention to elected education officials (and all other elected officials as well).

Yep. This goes for creationists, book burners, and extremists of all stripes. They ideas get into the school systems because most people don't have the faintest idea what goes on in the meetings. Once the insanity gets exposed, then people belatedly show an interest.

281 Throbert McGee  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 5:48:17am

re: #95 realwest

Hello my friend! "The throat/forcing trope has been so overdone as to have no meaning. How many actual throats have had actual atheist things forced down them?"

Maybe that's why Linda Lovelace went born-again... she got tired of all the atheist things.

282 Emerald  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 5:56:48am

re: #15 Maximu§

Christian's "fanatical creationists" because we want our faith to be a small PART of a scientific discussion?


Yes.

It really is that simple. Religion is not science. Science is based on facts; religion on faith. The two aren't interchangeable. Religion has no place in a scientific classroom. If you want dogma taught, it belongs in the home or church.

If that's too difficult for you to comprehend, consider this: Your religious belief isn't even comprehensive of Christian beliefs. The vast majority of Christians aren't stuck in the Dark Ages. Even if it was, you cannot teach religion in school. It's not the job of schools to do that.

Assuming that it was, whose religion gets taught? If you open the door to a subset of Christian beliefs in biology, you've opened the door to Pagan astrology instead of astronomy. Are you really okay with that? How about having Islamic beliefs taught?

And I guess it's no surprise that the anti-science creationist is also in the anti-vaccine camp.

283 Throbert McGee  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 6:29:20am

re: #276 Salamantis

"Naturalism is the view that the only way to understand our universe is through the scientific method. Materialism is the idea that the only reality is the physical matter of the universe, and that everything else, including thoughts, will, and emotions, comes from physical laws acting on that matter. The message of evolution, and all of science, is one of naturalistic materialism.

Wow. Gigantic downding. Naturalistic materialism is a game rule or working assumption of science, but not its conclusion or "message."

284 Teh Flowah  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:17:24am

re: #49 Maximu§

Nice try Joe, but TEXAS has a CHRISTIAN MAJORITY (Thank God) and the majority make the rules! No one is saying they want the schools to become Christian Madrassas, but when an Atheist minority tries to stamp out even a small mention of God...then THEY are the Fascists, not us.

Like I said, if you don't like Texas and Christian Faith....Than hit the road!


lol.

I'LL TAKE THE CONSTITUTION FOR $500 ALEX.

Despite some Texan's believe to the contrary, you're a part of the United States, and bound by the Supreme Law of the Land embodied in the Constitution. Don't like it? Go to China. Beyond that, you should also be bound by rationality and logic which tells you that Creationism is fucking stupid.

285 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:21:11am
286 Throbert McGee  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:22:42am

Just following up on my #283: Jerry Coyne's confident assertion that "the message of evolution... is one of naturalistic materialism" is exactly what the YEC Christians on the Texas School Board say -- except that these Christians abhor naturalism and Coyne embraces it. But on the point that evolution and science somehow lead logically to a rejection of everything supernatural, they seem to agree.

(At any rate, that's my interpretation of Coyne's phrasing, and that's why I gave it a downding.)

287 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:38:09am

re: #283 Throbert McGee

Wow. Gigantic downding. Naturalistic materialism is a game rule or working assumption of science, but not its conclusion or "message."

I somewhat disagree. Naturalistic materialism can be a conclusion - if the science in question works.

Coyne is echoing Daniel Dennett: that science is a "Dangerous Idea" of scientific heroes (evolution would be Darwin's), which prove the hypothesis of NM. Taken to that extreme, it's not a helpful statement ("not even wrong").

However: any science can prove that NM is sufficient as a philosophy to explain the fields which that science touches. Evolution is, in this way, sufficient to explain biology on Earth (assuming a starting point with archaea bacteria).

Any science has to be aware that in that field, NM might not be sufficient. NM is always a Null Hypothesis. The universe might be the creation of Yog Sothoth in Its squamous and rugose kitchen; string / M theory seems to be the extradimensional theory of choice these days (although granted, M theory is just as Not Even Wrong as any religion).

NM hasn't yet failed in science. That NM's starting assumptions have been repeatedly verified is a valid "message" of science. When NM does fail, I suppose we'll all know about it, somewhere between being driven utterly insance and being devoured by transdimensional tentacles.

288 freetoken  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:43:17am

re: #287 Zimriel

(although granted, M theory is just as Not Even Wrong as any religion).

Ahh.... reading Peter Woit, eh?

289 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:51:51am

re: #288 freetoken

Ahh.... reading Peter Woit, eh?

And Lovecraft. I'm pretty sure that the spawn of the Woits and Lovecrafts would inherit the Innsmouth Look.

290 Ziggy Standard  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:58:58am

Realwest, you seem to have updinged a standard anti-LGF meltdown post just because you were able to find something 'nice' about christians in it (leaving aside the fact that 'something' is blatantly untrue as well). That was poor judgement, and you should have admitted it, and reversed your upding.

291 Ziggy Standard  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 8:02:52am

re: #177 Spar Kling

Not that it will do you any good, but...

292 Yaks  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 8:49:33am

Regardless of your position vs. theirs - treating this board differently than any other political body is a real mistake. If they must have ALL their meetings open, recorded, and posted; why not all government meetings?

293 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:17:25am

re: #240 realwest

But I will reiterate my point: I have consistently and strongly supported you on every issue on LGF for five years plus and I am shocked that you would think I'd cheapshot you or something.

And I'll reiterate my point: the post was a gratuitous and extremely nasty insult, to me and to LGF in general, and I am shocked that you would approve of any of it -- and disappointed that that you're refusing to see the problem, and trying to lay some kind of guilt trip on me for being offended.

Whatever. I'm going to drop it now.

294 kindadifferent  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:18:22am

I learned early in life that my religious friends were no more moral than I. They were the ones stealing candy and after getting my umbrella stolen in a Church, it was pretty clear to me that religious institutions operate like little governments and you better pay your dues and eat the way they tell you to eat. The miracle of life gave me a brain so I use it free willingly and I don't steal, cheat, commit adultery, bla, bla, bla

295 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:23:10am

re: #262 Spar Kling

But as we all know, some Evolutionists are afraid to question parts of evolution and won't tolerate those who do.

The fact is that some people won't tolerate liars, and you have lied repeatedly in these threads, about the "science degree" you don't have, and about a long list of "peer reviewed papers on intelligent design" that you swore existed, then couldn't produce -- but refused to admit it, even after being completely exposed.

You have also lied and misrepresented cases where you claimed people had been suppressed and fired from their jobs by the "scientific establishment," even after having the facts pointed out to you; you just came back and repeated the lies again and again.

And you continue to post this "teach the controversy" BS, knowing full well that people see right through it. You're only posting on these threads because you're trying to trick gullible people into swallowing your lies.

296 victor_yugo  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:52:05am

re: #244 zombie

Textbook manufacturers don't want to have to make 50 different custom textbooks, one for each state; instead, they will make three different ones at most, each designed to satisfy the political demands of the school boards in Texas, New York and California. That way, they're guaranteed the most sales.

A nit to pick: The textbook manufacturers (such as R. R. Donnelly & Sons) can accept or reject an order, but it's the publishers who set out the editions for different states' requirements. But your point about publishing for different states is correct; it does eat into everybody's profits.

But what this means is that the other 47 states usually end up settling for textbooks which were originally designed to TX, NY or CA standards. It's either that, or make your own textbooks -- a pretty expensive proposition.

"Publish on demand" is becoming more and more of an option. Sites such as Lulu.com have made it central to their business model, and I know someone personally who is considering this route. I can see the day coming where larger school districts begin using such a service regularly.

297 Land Shark  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:01:19am

One of the big lies that creationists who want to shove matters of faith into the science classroom repeat over and over is that scientists are afraid to question evolution or certain aspects of evolution. If you read what Darwin wrote and what many scientists who've studied evolution have written, you realize what bunk that is. It's obvious that the theory of evolution has "evolved" (pun intended), to reflect the results of research done by many of these scientists, just like other sciences like astronomy have changed and (there's that word again) "evolved" as a result of new discoveries. Research has shown that certain aspects of evolution may not always work as Darwin said. However, it doesn't invalidate the over all concept of evolution, it just shows how important it is to continue honest, open scientific inquiry.

The ability of my fellow believers to lie and misrepresent facts is the most disturbing part of this whole issue.

298 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:23:49am

The idea of putting on the public record any governmental deliberation is sound no matter what the agency, unless public safety is involved. Why these people who loudly and publicly profess and proclaim their views are good and correct are so intent on hiding what they do is quite beyond me. They insist on hiding their light under a bushel basket, for the greater good they say.

299 Spar Kling  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:43:45am

Here are some more quotes from The Evolutionists, The Struggle for Darwin's Soul by Richard Morris ([Link: www.amazon.com...]

Again, Dr. Morris is staunch evolutionist.


According to the noted British geneticist John Maynard Smith, Harvard Paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould is "a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with."

Oxford Zoologist Richard Dawkins . . . charges that Gould's view of evolution is based on a fundamental misunderstanding.

Tufts University philosopher Daniel Dennet says . . . Gould has had an influence that is "immense and distorting."

Gould, on the other hand, brands Maynard Smith, Dawkins, and Dennett as "Darwinian fundamentalists," who place an emphasis on one component of Charles Darwin's thinking and "push their line with an almost theological fervor." . . . Dennett's writings, he adds, are characterized by "hint, innuendo, false attribution and error."

The controversy is more than an argument between Gould and his critics. It is one in which numerous scientists are currently engaged because they believe that there are still questions to be settled about the nature of evolution. Before I go further, I should point out that none of the participants in this controversy are questioning the idea of evolution.

The emphasis is mine. As I said before, scientists expect to be skeptical and involved in controversy, and so should the students learning science. Religious teaching does not belong in science classrooms. However, to teach the theory of evolution dogmatically in reaction to encroachments from Creationism, Islam, and who knows what, is simply an excuse for clothing Science in statism -- just as you will soon be experiencing directly with the global warming crowd! Then some of you will also discover what it means to be accused of lying, being anti-science, and so on.

-sk

300 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:49:43am

re: #299 Spar Kling

You are completely shameless.

301 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:01:58am

re: #292 Yaks

Regardless of your position vs. theirs - treating this board differently than any other political body is a real mistake. If they must have ALL their meetings open, recorded, and posted; why not all government meetings?

What are you afraid of?

Yes, all government meetings should be broadcast, but this particular bill deals only with the Board of Education because the situation is totally outrageous, with fanatical young earth creationists in charge of teaching children science.

302 Mr Secul  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 1:56:04pm

re: #299 Spar Kling

However, to teach the theory of evolution dogmatically in reaction to encroachments from Creationism, Islam, and who knows what, is simply an excuse for clothing Science in statism

How would you teach it? What would you say? Could you give specific examples?

Could you say how you believe it is taught at present and use this as a basis to describe your method of teaching evolution? You could make a contrast between what you say is current practice and what you propose but using specific examples.

303 Mr Secul  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 2:05:48pm

re: #299 Spar Kling

As I said before, scientists expect to be skeptical and involved in controversy, and so should the students learning science.

Are you talking about university students?

304 Claire  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 2:12:57pm

I hope this bill passes. This year in the our legislature, a representative brought a video camera to stream the sessions. Everybody had a cow for about 48 hours till it dawned on them that, yes, the public does have a right to see how the sausage is being made. It''s like they had forgotten it and had to be brought back to their senses. Now everybody is cool with it. I hope that a few people will actually tune in, and learn about the idiots we have let ourselves elect.

305 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 2:16:52pm

re: #286 Throbert McGee

Just following up on my #283: Jerry Coyne's confident assertion that "the message of evolution... is one of naturalistic materialism" is exactly what the YEC Christians on the Texas School Board say -- except that these Christians abhor naturalism and Coyne embraces it. But on the point that evolution and science somehow lead logically to a rejection of everything supernatural, they seem to agree.

(At any rate, that's my interpretation of Coyne's phrasing, and that's why I gave it a downding.)

You confuse methodological naturalism with metaphysical naturalism. Empirical science must experimentally interrogate and investigate phenomena under the assumption that natural explanations exist to be found; this is different from assuming that nothing supernatural exists. However, the supernatural and extra-empirical may not be investigated by natural empirical means, which are the means employed by empirical science, so the question of the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural and extra-empirical explanations is beyond the purview of empirical science.

Nor has it needed recourse to such explanations, as it has invariably found natural and empirical ones.

306 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 2:29:12pm

re: #299 Spar Kling

Here are some more quotes from The Evolutionists, The Struggle for Darwin's Soul by Richard Morris ([Link: www.amazon.com...]

Again, Dr. Morris is staunch evolutionist.


The emphasis is mine. As I said before, scientists expect to be skeptical and involved in controversy, and so should the students learning science. Religious teaching does not belong in science classrooms. However, to teach the theory of evolution dogmatically in reaction to encroachments from Creationism, Islam, and who knows what, is simply an excuse for clothing Science in statism -- just as you will soon be experiencing directly with the global warming crowd! Then some of you will also discover what it means to be accused of lying, being anti-science, and so on.

-sk

Next you'll be talking about teaching the theory of spherical-earth heliocentricity dogmatically, or the germ theory of disease dogmatically, or the theory of universal gravitation dogmatically.

Dogma, for the umpty-umpth time, is that which is asserted in the utter absence of supporting empirical evidence. Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, is supported by vast masses of empirical evidence pinstakingly and meticulously accumulated over the spn of a century and a half, and not a single solitary shred of credible evidence contradicting evolutionary theory has yet been found.

ID/creationism, otoh, can boast not a single solitary shred of empirical evidence that supports it, which classifies it as a religious dogma rather than as empirical science, and conclusively demonstrates that it does not belong in public high school science class, but instead in comparative religion class, since it is not an alternative theory of empirical science, but is instead a tenet of one dogmatic religion among many other religions that advocate different and incompatible dogmatic views on the issue.

307 tremblur  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 7:48:56pm

What about fanatical atheists teaching our children they are nothing more than a "highly evolved animal"? You call that "science"?

I love how evolutionists' collective sphincters get tight when their sacred cow gets questioned.

I don't think "creationism" should be taught in schools, but your'e right I believe there are holes the size of the Milky Way in Darwinian macro-evolution theory. And students have a right to know this.

308 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 8:37:58pm

re: #307 tremblur

What about fanatical atheists teaching our children they are nothing more than a "highly evolved animal"? You call that "science"?

Actually, umm, yes. But it is not the teaching of atheists; merely the discoveries of scientists. Supported by ALL of the fossil, embryological, and genetic evidence.

You can dismiss, belittle and deny the empirical evidence for the common ancestry of all terrestrial life until the cows come home and lay down and die, but it will not affest its verscity one whit.

I love how evolutionists' collective sphincters get tight when their sacred cow gets questioned.

It is the religious dogmatists who are suffering anal stricture when their religious domas are conclusively shown to be false - particularly the religious dogma that falsely asserts that humans and other terrestrial species were created independently and as is. And the religious dogma that falsely asserts that life, the earth, and the universe are but a few thousand years old.

I don't think "creationism" should be taught in schools, but your'e right I believe there are holes the size of the Milky Way in Darwinian macro-evolution theory. And students have a right to know this.

Please show not that evolution is incomplete, but that it is incorrect. You cannot do this. There exists not a single shred of counterfactual empirical evidence against it, and mountains and oceans of empirical evidence supporting it.

And then please produce a single solitary shred of empirical evidence that contradicts evolutionary theory. Once again, you cannot do so, for such evidence does not exist.

309 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:59:29pm

Umm...affect its veracity...

pimf

310 Mr Secul  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 1:02:46am

re: #307 tremblur

I believe there are holes the size of the Milky Way in Darwinian macro-evolution theory. And students have a right to know this.

Please give some examples of these holes.

311 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 3:07:21am

re: #307 tremblur

Like the last gasp of methane from the rotting sphincter of the dead cow of creationism, the inevitable end of thread creationist troll comment makes it's appearance.

312 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 9:20:06am

re: #307 tremblur

I believe there are holes the size of the Milky Way in Darwinian macro-evolution theory.

Over and over, creationists repeat this assertion. Yet when challenged to produce one example of these "holes" in the theory of evolution, they always clam up.

Name one example of a hole in evolutionary theory, please.

313 Jim D  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 11:05:02am

re: #307 tremblur

u r a poop head

314 Mr Secul  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 12:10:43pm

re: #312 Charles

Over and over, creationists repeat this assertion. Yet when challenged to produce one example of these "holes" in the theory of evolution, they always clam up.

They want to explain the holes to school children in science classes but they don't want to explain the holes to us.

Do they intend to whisper the holes into their ears so nobody else can hear?

Why are they keeping these holes under wraps?

Do they present them to the children or do they want the children supply their own?

Do the children present their doubts during an exam? Or do they present them to the teacher in class before they are examined?


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