Jindal-Endorsed Creationist Loses in Louisiana

PoliticsApril 2009 • Views: 3,560

A Republican candidate endorsed by Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal has lost big.

Baton Rouge lawyer Dan Claitor beat businessman and fellow Republican Lee Domingue — the candidate with Gov. Bobby Jindal’s backing — to win the state Senate District 16 seat in Saturday’s special election.

Claitor garnered 11,713 or 66� percent of the vote to Domingue’s 6,114 or 34 percent, based on complete but unofficial election returns.

Domingue far out-raised and outspent Claitor in the election to fill a vacancy created when Republican Bill Cassidy was elected to the U.S. Congress.

Lee Domingue is a Biblical literalist who wants creationism taught in public schools, and wants to ban single Louisiana citizens from adopting children:

Youtube Video

It’s too bad the Louisiana voters couldn’t stop Jindal from signing his Discovery Institute-sponsored bill to sneak creationism into public schools, but at least this outright creationist has been shown the door.

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499 comments

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:27:43pm

Voters are evolving.

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:27:57pm

Claitor Varada Nikto!

simonml Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:28:20pm

Lee Domingue is a Biblical literalist who wants creationism taught in public schools, and wants to ban single Louisiana citizens from adopting children

This last part is to prevent homosexuals from adopting, right?

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:29:29pm

Is good! Creationists need to be defeated.

Kyriakos Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:30:00pm

Interesting. I do wonder if we will see a shift of the Christian Right away from the Republican Party as the Party eventually wakes up to the fact that Creationist candidates are untenable.

Ideally, they wouldn't go over to the Democrats. They'd just get in the hair of the Constitution Party nuts, the Libertarians, and Ron Paul's silly Campaign for Liberty.

Divide and conquer. They'll hardly influence elections if they have no where to turn.

Cognito Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:30:20pm

Man, Charles. Gotta admit it feels like you're stuck into Jindal a bit, with this one.

Ghost707 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:30:24pm

Don't worry, the Democrats will be back in charge again soon enough, just in time for it go underwater in a hurricane so that they can blame it all on the Republicans..again.

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:31:56pm

66 to 34. Not even close.

simonml Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:32:52pm

IMO personal beliefs are one thing, but wanting Creationism taught in school is another. There's no law against being stupid, but don't teach my kids to be stupid. lol

Teacake! Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:35:18pm

Its really not fair to accuse Jindal of trying to sneak this in. The media here is clearly either ignoring it or isn't doing their homework. The paper here just doesn't mention this nor does any local talk radio.

FrogMarch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:35:30pm

Creationism as science is not going to be a winning issue for Republicans. They better wake up.

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:35:45pm

ban adoption?....never heard that one before, sounds interesting

Teacake! Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:36:50pm

As a matter of fact, none of the people I know who teach in the public school system know about this. Probably the school board doesn't either. The school board members are just too busy ripping off local funds.

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:36:53pm

re: #9 simonml

IMO personal beliefs are one thing, but wanting Creationism taught in school is another. There's no law against being stupid, but don't teach my kids to be stupid. lol

I can definitely agree with that -- and so an upding.

Believe as you wish, but don't teach untestable beliefs as science that every child must be exposed to.

yesandno Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:37:51pm

There is a God!

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:38:13pm

re: #12 albusteve

ban adoption?....never heard that one before, sounds interesting

Wonder his postion on foster parenting...............

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:38:56pm

re: #10 Teacake!

Its really not fair to accuse Jindal of trying to sneak this in. The media here is clearly either ignoring it or isn't doing their homework. The paper here just doesn't mention this nor does any local talk radio.

Yes, it is completely fair. Bobby Jindal promoted and signed a deceptive "academic freedom" bill that was sponsored by the Discovery Institute, and the only purpose of the bill is to sneak creationism into schools. There are numerous posts at LGF on this subject.

USBeast Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:39:03pm

re: #15 yesandno

There is a God!

Yeah,...so...?

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:39:05pm

well the adoption thing is as clear as mud?...he didn't say he would ban it tho

Ghost707 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:39:06pm

re: #9 simonml

IMO personal beliefs are one thing, but wanting Creationism taught in school is another. There's no law against being stupid, but don't teach my kids to be stupid. lol

You're a few decades too late.

Most teachers are liberals.

They have been teaching that community organizers are the future.

Doesn't matter much though, since the dropout rate is so high these days.

yesandno Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:40:18pm

re: #18 USBeast

Yeah,...so...?

so he LOST.........

/oh never mind......

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:40:37pm

re: #16 screaming_eagle

Wonder his postion on foster parenting...............

or orphanages

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:40:57pm

re: #10 Teacake!

Its really not fair to accuse Jindal of trying to sneak this in. The media here is clearly either ignoring it or isn't doing their homework. The paper here just doesn't mention this nor does any local talk radio.

The Baton Rouge newspaper is the only media I've seen covering any "creationist" angle.

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:41:12pm

I'm a Pagan. To me, the Bible is great literature, necessary for understanding Western civilization, and should be taught as such. Not to do so would be robbing children of an extremely rich cultural heritage, which would be its own sort or a crime.

But please, don't try to teach biblical literalism as scientific fact, because it isn't.

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:41:34pm

re: #7 Ghost707

Don't worry, the Democrats will be back in charge again soon enough,

And then Jindal will be on the streets! With all his creationist buddies! BAHAHAHAH!

/sideshow bob

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:41:59pm

re: #24 Empire1

I'm a Pagan. To me, the Bible is great literature, necessary for understanding Western civilization, and should be taught as such. Not to do so would be robbing children of an extremely rich cultural heritage, which would be its own sort or a crime.

But please, don't try to teach biblical literalism as scientific fact, because it isn't.

dig motorcycles eh?....cool

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:42:25pm

re: #15 yesandno

There is a God!

There are many Gods, in my faith. I sometimes feel sorry for those limited to one.

USBeast Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:42:25pm

re: #21 yesandno

so he LOST.........

/oh never mind......

I'm good at that. When I was a kid in school, my parents constantly got notes from my teachers that said: "He never minds."

solomonpanting Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:43:00pm

re: #6 Cognito

Man, Charles. Gotta admit it feels like you're stuck into ~~Jindal~~ one shouldn't teach creationism as science a bit, with this one.

A bit better, huh?

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:43:52pm

winning 2:1 is a tremendous smack down to the creationists, chalk one up for the good guys.

jaunte Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:44:37pm

For the curious, here's the current law on adoption in Louisiana:

Art. 1198. Persons who may petition for adoption

A single person, eighteen years or older, or a married couple jointly may petition to adopt a child through an agency. When one joint petitioner dies after the petition has been filed, the adoption proceedings may continue as though the survivor was a single original petitioner.

Acts 1991, No. 235, &sect12, eff. Jan. 1, 1992.

[Link: www.childadoptionlaws.com...]

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:45:30pm

re: #26 albusteve

dig motorcycles eh?....cool

Wrong kind of Pagan, in that context, but yeah -- when we were dating, Mr. Empire had one of the original type Indian motorcycles, and we had many pleasant rides on it. :)

Mike in Georgia Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:46:20pm

Well there seems to be some sane people in La.

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:47:06pm

re: #32 Empire1

Wrong kind of Pagan, in that context, but yeah -- when we were dating, Mr. Empire had one of the original type Indian motorcycles, and we had many pleasant rides on it. :)

just joking of course....maybe you are ready for a Goldwing now...wooho...I love motorcycles

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:47:46pm

If you haven't watched the video please do so -
The candidate's idea of "neutrality" is to teach Genesis in Science class
You also see him "lieing for Jesus" on adoption

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:47:54pm

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:48:03pm

re: #24 Empire1

I'm a Pagan. To me, the Bible is great literature, necessary for understanding Western civilization, and should be taught as such. Not to do so would be robbing children of an extremely rich cultural heritage, which would be its own sort or a crime.

But please, don't try to teach biblical literalism as scientific fact, because it isn't.

Yet another fellow Pagan on LGF; Kewl!

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:48:20pm

re: #27 Empire1

There are many Gods, in my faith. I sometimes feel sorry for those limited to one.

We Catholics do have saints...

I sat in on a Shabbat service last Friday (BTW: thanks, Jews, for letting goyim attend these and making us feel welcome, you rock). The sermon was about one of the miracles of one Hanina bar Dosa. He had a rock which he carved, and wanted to bring it to Temple. He had five gold sovereigns. He tried to hire some guys to pull the thing, but they demanded 50. Then he was met by five guys in white, and they took his 5 gold coins. He then passed out, and woke up on the Mount, with the rock AND his 5 gold.

So it seems Judaism has miracle-working saints as well... not sure if it's kosher to ask Bar Dosa etc to put in a good word with the Most High though, the way we ask for the intercession of our saints.

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:49:42pm

re: #33 Mike in Georgia

Well there seems to be some sane people in La.

I think that's the idea of stealth/academic freedom legislation...when these people look you in the eye and frankly state their views it must be chilling to a lot of voters

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:50:48pm

It's refreshing to know that money and backing by big-wigs doesn't always win.

Mike in Georgia Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:50:59pm

re: #39 albusteve

My point exactly.

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:51:26pm

The Republican party has an enormous problem with these fundamentalist fanatics, and it looks like voters are starting to make them pay for it.

It's actually difficult to find a GOP politician who is NOT a creationist.

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:51:57pm

re: #10 Teacake!

From what I've seen, the legislation in and of itself is sneaky. He may be very publicly supportive of it.

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:51:59pm

re: #41 Mike in Georgia

My point exactly.

sometimes I state the obvious...I hate that

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:52:24pm

re: #38 Zimriel

We Catholics do have saints...

I sat in on a Shabbat service last Friday (BTW: thanks, Jews, for letting goyim attend these and making us feel welcome, you rock). The sermon was about one of the miracles of one Hanina bar Dosa. He had a rock which he carved, and wanted to bring it to Temple. He had five gold sovereigns. He tried to hire some guys to pull the thing, but they demanded 50. Then he was met by five guys in white, and they took his 5 gold coins. He then passed out, and woke up on the Mount, with the rock AND his 5 gold.

So it seems Judaism has miracle-working saints as well... not sure if it's kosher to ask Bar Dosa etc to put in a good word with the Most High though, the way we ask for the intercession of our saints.

The practice of Voodoo and Santeria in New Orleans and the Caribbean dates to the native religions of the slaves that were brought over from Africa. Since they were forbidden from practicing their own faiths, they embraced Roman Catholocism on the surface, but the names of the different angels and saints were used as masks beneath which they concealed the personas of the gods of their old religions...Legba and Oya and Oshun and so on...

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:52:25pm

Did the voter just tell this puppet of Jindal,
To go sit on a spindle?

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:52:46pm

re: #42 Charles

The Republican party has an enormous problem with these fundamentalist fanatics, and it looks like voters are starting to make them pay for it.

It's actually difficult to find a GOP politician who is NOT a creationist.

Maybe in a few years we will be able to say the same about the dems now that Ahmanson has switched parties.

jaunte Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:53:13pm

Here's an interesting non-answer response from Jindal in reference to adoption:

Jindal appointee Gene Mills, Louisiana Family Forum director, said he believes gay rights advocates are simply overreacting to the Arkansas vote and California voters' rejection of same-sex marriages. Mills' group bills itself as "your voice for traditional families." He said the commission could yield ideas such as continuing to make it harder to divorce; devoting more resources to job training for single parents; and increasing state prisoners' opportunities to interact with their children.

But Mills and Broome demurred on the question of gay adoption. Mills said, "That's really up to the Legislature." Broome did not offer her position.

Asked through his aides about the commission and specifically about his position on gay adoption, Jindal released a one-sentence statement: "I believe family is the cornerstone of our society and look forward to the commission's work on how we can do more to support healthy families."
[Link: www.nola.com...]

LionOfDixon Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:54:13pm

What was McCain?

FrogMarch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:54:52pm

ot: Markos Moulitsas is still as classy as ever.

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:55:11pm

re: #49 LionOfDixon

What does it matter in this context? Not at all.

Last Mohican Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:55:13pm

re: #42 Charles

]It's actually difficult to find a GOP politician who is NOT a creationist.

Wow, that's an extremely strong statement. I find it very hard to believe that's true.

On the other hand, before you started these creationism threads, I was under the impression that creationists formed an extremely tiny and thoroughly irrelevant fringe group in America these days. You have certainly educated me on that point.

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:55:25pm

re: #34 albusteve

just joking of course....maybe you are ready for a Goldwing now...wooho...I love motorcycles

I figured -- not a problem! But that was up in Pennsylvania, where it was really nice to ride out on the mountain back roads. Here in flat cenral/southern Delaware, well ... boring would be a good description.

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:55:45pm

(tapping foot impatiently) PLEASE get to 100 comments so that I can tell y'all something completely OT but SO COOL!

Mike in Georgia Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:55:54pm

re: #44 albusteve

But you stated it much better than I.

Shr_Nfr Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:55:58pm

Creationism is a side show. For as long as the Republicans allow themselves to be identified with it, they will find themselves a batch of side show freaks out of office. They have to return to their roots of being a party of the Constitution and of restraint in government.

VioletTiger Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:56:32pm

re: #49 LionOfDixon

What was McCain?

Good question. I have no idea.

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:56:56pm

re: #48 jaunte

He said the commission could yield ideas such as continuing to make it harder to divorce

Oh yeah, like that statement is a voter getter.

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:57:01pm

re: #49 LionOfDixon

What was McCain?

When the Republican candidates were asked in a debate which of them accepted evolution, McCain was one of those who raised his hand.

Mike in Georgia Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:57:09pm

re: #54 goddessoftheclassroom

Go ahead, it's a slow night.

PSGInfinity Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:57:15pm

re: #57 VioletTiger

Good question. I have no idea.

He's some guy in the neighborhood...

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:57:31pm

re: #53 Empire1

I figured -- not a problem! But that was up in Pennsylvania, where it was really nice to ride out on the mountain back roads. Here in flat cenral/southern Delaware, well ... boring would be a good description.

there's always Dewey Beach!

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:57:31pm

re: #52 Last Mohican

Wow, that's an extremely strong statement. I find it very hard to believe that's true.

On the other hand, before you started these creationism threads, I was under the impression that creationists formed an extremely tiny and thoroughly irrelevant fringe group in America these days. You have certainly educated me on that point.

It is true. I've been checking and almost every major GOP politician is either an outright young earth creationist, or a disguised "intelligent design" creationist.

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:57:58pm

re: #55 Mike in Georgia

But you stated it much better than I.

nah

Shr_Nfr Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:58:58pm

re: #45 Salamantis

The DVD "Divine Horsemen: The Living Gods of Haiti" by Maya Daren in the late 1940s is a most interesting view. It is also available as a book.

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:59:00pm

re: #59 Salamantis

When the Republican candidates were asked in a debate which of them accepted evolution, McCain was one of those who raised his hand.

To me he was ambivalent, kowtowing to both sides of the issue as the audience demanded...

But that's really neither here or there, as McCain's time has passed.

pink freud Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:59:04pm

re: #6 Cognito

Man, Charles. Gotta admit it feels like you're stuck into Jindal a bit, with this one.

It's a good thing.

jjmckay1216 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:59:17pm

re: #42 Charles

The Republican party has an enormous problem with these fundamentalist fanatics, and it looks like voters are starting to make them pay for it.

It's actually difficult to find a GOP politician who is NOT a creationist.

so, Charles. When will YOU run :)

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:59:17pm

re: #42 Charles

The Republican party has an enormous problem with these fundamentalist fanatics, and it looks like voters are starting to make them pay for it.

It's actually difficult to find a GOP politician who is NOT a creationist.

Bingo. I think I've pointed out before that my mother, a lifelong Dem Episcopalian, was convinced at her death that her daughter (me!) and my family are going to hell for being Jewish (I converted) and had very little to do with us. I didn't know why until after her death. She had left the church for some years and went back, where they had some program that taught her final beliefs. I was stunned. I don't understand what is going on in churches in this country now. Not what I grew up in.

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:59:25pm

re: #63 Charles

It is true. I've been checking and almost every major GOP politician is either an outright young earth creationist, or a disguised "intelligent design" creationist.

yup...bummer, they are dropping like flies now...isn't Hunter up in Utah a creationist?...I like that guy

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:59:49pm

11,713 or 66 percent of the vote to Domingue’s 6,114 or 34 percent

That's a serious ass-kicking!

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 3:59:58pm

re: #36 buzzsawmonkey

Scientific fact? No. But a remarkable amount of Biblical history--at least as regards the later Judean kings--has been confirmed by archaeological finds, just as Heinrich Schliemann used the charming fable of the Iliad to locate ancient Troy.

I bring this up not to argue for injecting Biblical tales into science class--far from it--but to point out that the Bible is more than merely a "rich cultural heritage" of metaphor.

No argument, since you are obviously correct, and disputing historical data wasn't my intention. I simply don't think the Bible should be taught as science, but on the other hand, I defititely think it should be taught as literature.

Not to do the latter would be as much a disservice to our students as would be teaching it as science.

LionOfDixon Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:00:17pm

re: #51 Thanos

Charles made the point that it was getting hard to find non-creationist Republicans. Thus my question.....Come to think of it, what are the views of the last slate of GOP contenders? Ron Paul, Romney, and Guiliani don't seem to be overly creationist to the exclusion of evolution....

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:00:20pm

re: #6 Cognito

Man, Charles. Gotta admit it feels like you're stuck into Jindal a bit, with this one.

What does that mean?

VioletTiger Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:00:48pm

re: #59 Salamantis

When the Republican candidates were asked in a debate which of them accepted evolution, McCain was one of those who raised his hand.

Did anyone else raise their hand?

Colonel Panik Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:01:05pm

re: #70 albusteve

yup...bummer, they are dropping like flies now...isn't Hunter up in Utah a creationist?...I like that guy

Steve Huntsman is Utah Gov. Whatever his private personal beliefs are, he does not endorse teaching creationism in schools.
Mandy had some good posts about him recently.

PSGInfinity Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:01:10pm

re: #17 Charles

Yes, it is completely fair. Bobby Jindal promoted and signed a deceptive "academic freedom" bill that was sponsored by the Discovery Institute, and the only purpose of the bill is to sneak creationism into schools. There are numerous posts at LGF on this subject.

But fairness doesn't even have to enter into it. This is Charles' blog, free do as he likes, including posting as he sees fit. So he's got a Creationism bug? Bah, there are INFINITELY worse obsessions. And we don't have to be here, anyway...

Ghost707 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:01:42pm

re: #25 Zimriel

And then Jindal will be on the streets! With all his creationist buddies! BAHAHAHAH!

/sideshow bob

Yes!

And then they can teach them something far more dangerous than creationism: How to hate America.

It's all the rage in the rest of the world.

And who knows, maybe the teachers will teach them that electing an anti-American as President is just what the USA needs.

Oh wait, we already have one of those in the White house.

See, their plan has worked already!

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:01:47pm

In the discussion spinoff the Syrah and I are having on A Conflict of Visions, I said this today and thisnk it's just as relevent to point out on this thread:

I found this most interesting:

A similar difference between individual and systemic rationality can be found in religious doctrines in which (1) the Deity is conceived to act directly to affect natural and human phenomena, versus (2) those in which a Providential systemic process makes life possible and beneficent without requiring Divine superintendence of details. What both the secular and religious versions of systemic processes have in common is that the wisdom of the individual human actor is not the wisdom of the drama. Conversely, there are both secular and religious versions of individual rationality, the religious version being one in which the Deity directly decides on individual events, from daily weather changes to deaths of individuals. Fundamentalist religion is the most pervasive vision of central planning, though many fundamentalists may oppose human central planning as an usurpation or "playing God". This is consistent with the fundamentalist vision of an unconstrained God and a highly constrained man.

This struck me in light of the ID/evolution threads, and was later reconfirmed in Ch 4:

The constrained vision is not a static vision of the social process, nor a view that the status quo should not be altered. On the contrary, its central principle is evolution.

Additionally:

The same basic view has been expressed in the twentieth century by F.A. Hayek:

Tradition is not something constant but the product of a process of selection guided not by reason but by success.

The Hayekian view is even further removed from deliberate design than that of Burke, since Hayek incorporates a "survival of the fittest" culture-selection process which depends upon survival in competition with other social systems rather than simply on the basis of pragmatic individual judgements of success. The intervening influence of Darwin between these two exponents of the constrained vision is apparent.

It seems to me we're witnessing the constrained vs. unconstrained dichotomy playing out in the republican party with conservatives being of the constrained vision, and many on the religious "right" being of the unconstrained vision. I think it is in the discussions we've had on science where this manifests itself best. The two visions on the right deal with science in different manners- the constrained accepting societal evolution due to scientific advancements, with the unconstrained political savior being the Bible itself.

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:02:11pm

re: #73 LionOfDixon

Romney and Guiliani were the two who were not, look what happened...

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:02:18pm

re: #74 MandyManners

It means engage your GAZE-dar.

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:02:21pm

re: #10 Teacake!

Its really not fair to accuse Jindal of trying to sneak this in. The media here is clearly either ignoring it or isn't doing their homework. The paper here just doesn't mention this nor does any local talk radio.

The media might be embarassed about this issue.

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:02:40pm

re: #72 Empire1

No argument, since you are obviously correct, and disputing historical data wasn't my intention. I simply don't think the Bible should be taught as science, but on the other hand, I defititely think it should be taught as literature.

Not to do the latter would be as much a disservice to our students as would be teaching it as science.

Some of the events depicted in the Bible are indeed historical events; others are not. But which are which is something that must be verified independent of Biblical mention.

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:02:43pm

re: #73 LionOfDixon

Charles made the point that it was getting hard to find non-creationist Republicans. Thus my question.....Come to think of it, what are the views of the last slate of GOP contenders? Ron Paul, Romney, and Guiliani don't seem to be overly creationist to the exclusion of evolution....

Ron Paul is a creationist.

Rudy Giuliani is not.

Mitt Romney is not.

Neither Giuliani nor Romney are acceptable to the GOP.

anchors_aweigh Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:02:45pm

To understand the dynamics involved in the campaign one needs to know a thing or two about District 16. It stretches from the gates of LSU to the Country Club of Louisiana. "Blue blood" country. So "blue" that one's roots must extend three or four generations deep before one could be considered a native of south Baton Rouge, or worthy of belonging to the "old guard" in Red Stick. The "chic," or "nouveau riche," need not apply for admission. Therein lies part of the problem for Domingue. He's a newcomer by south Baton Rouge standards, and we could safely describe him as "new money." Considering Domingue's track record on the business front, though, we don't know for sure how wealthy Domingue is. He has at least one bankruptcy under his belt, while an heir to the Doc Pennington fortune alleges Domingue fleeced her in a business deal the heiress says went sour. It's never a good thing to get sideways with the Pennington family, a family that has given away more money to more causes in Baton Rouge than most people will see in a lifetime. They are the gold standard. That brings us to Claitor, who is "old guard" south Baton Rouge through and through. His family has been around for a spell. And they're respected, which may explain why the Domingue campaign's attempts to label Claitor a dreaded trial lawyer have failed. Something else that failed was Gov. Bobby Jindal interjecting himself into race. Jindal endorsed Domingue. The endorsement was received like a "shotgun wedding" on Highland Road. It's unclear why the governor got involved in the Claitor/Domingue affair. It could have something to do with the more than $100,000 in political contributions Domingue has given Jindal and a non-profit organization that advocates the Jindal agenda, Believe in Louisiana. Rolfe McCollister, publisher of Baton Rouge Business Report, chairs Believe in Louisiana. The Business Report endorsed Domingue, too.

AuntAcid Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:03:01pm

From the atheists website

John McCain on Science & Evolution
"Unlike other Republican candidates, John McCain's views on evolution and creationism are somewhat reasonable. He's actually said publicly that he accepts the findings of evolutionary science whereas the other Republican candidates had openly denied science in favor or believing the Bible. John McCain's view teaching creationism in public schools is unclear. At 2007 debate at St. Anselm College he said that it "should be decided by school districts" whether they teach science or religious mythology. Other times, he said that he agrees with George W. Bush that "all points of view" should be taught in schools, including intelligent design creationism. Either way, he is not willing to defend the teaching of science in public schools."

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:03:54pm

ron paul takes money from nazis.

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:03:55pm

re: #50 FrogMarch

Wow. Talk about Left Wing Hate machine.

LionOfDixon Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:04:12pm

One can believe in evolution and creationism at the same time.....evolution is simply the method by which God creates....

Therefore, it is somewhat disingenuous to label someone either a creationist or an evolutionist without knowing the full extent of their beliefs.

brookly red Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:04:25pm

re: #80 Thanos

Romney and Guiliani were the two who were not, look what happened...

Where does Newt fit in? Seem like he is thinking of running...

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:04:36pm

re: #42 Charles

The Republican party has an enormous problem with these fundamentalist fanatics, and it looks like voters are starting to make them pay for it.

It's actually difficult to find a GOP politician who is NOT a creationist.

How is this a repudiation of the GOP? Claitor's a Republican.

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:04:46pm

Claitor clearly was a more effective candidate than Domingue. I don't know how big a role the creationist issue played in the election.

Being a creationist is one thing. Forcing your belief upon the innocent children of others, particularly through government-funded public schools, is something else entirely.

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:04:58pm

But what are Dan Claitor's views on the subject? Has he been silent on the issue?

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:04:59pm

re: #76 Colonel Panik

Steve Huntsman is Utah Gov. Whatever his private personal beliefs are, he does not endorse teaching creationism in schools.
Mandy had some good posts about him recently.

right...I read those and checked him out a bit, but that last fact I did not know...other than school I don't really care what people believe...I wonder if he has any national aspirations...so what do you know about what's his name in S Carolina?

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:05:23pm

re: #63 Charles

It is true. I've been checking and almost every major GOP politician is either an outright young earth creationist, or a disguised "intelligent design" creationist.

What about Cantor? I've found NOTHING about his POV on this.

doppelganglander Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:05:42pm

re: #90 brookly red

Where does Newt fit in? Seem like he is thinking of running...

Newt needs to stay home. He is irreparably damaged in the public eye and has no chance of winning.

BTW, did anyone notice Just My View is back? She posted at the tail end of the Stormfront cop killer thread. Haven't seen her in an age.

LionOfDixon Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:05:43pm

re: #84 Charles

Ron Paul was even less acceptable than either Guiliani or Romney. You could almost see the others cringe when he opened his mouth and prattled on like Professor Irwin Corey..

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:06:24pm

re: #37 Salamantis

Yet another fellow Pagan on LGF; Kewl!

Yep! Omnist, grabbed by Ganesha. I used to be a moderator on a Pagan board which was -mostly- Wiccan-oriented, but I can get along with just about anyone except Volkish Asatruar. Tthe non-Volkish are great good fun to be around, if you like beer and guns!

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:06:27pm

re: #87 Sharmuta

ron paul takes money from nazis.

He sure took money from Don Black, the proprietor of the Neonazi White Supremacist website Stormfront, and for quite a while Stormfront included a Ron Paul donation widget on their website.

100

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:06:47pm

re: #89 LionOfDixon

One can believe in evolution and creationism at the same time.....evolution is simply the method by which God creates....

Therefore, it is somewhat disingenuous to label someone either a creationist or an evolutionist without knowing the full extent of their beliefs.

Creationists reject evolution. What you're thinking is of Theistic evolution, which allows for both God and science. The Disco Institute and their ilk would have you think it's ID that promotes both, but it's just not true.

101

USBeast Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:06:59pm

re: #87 Sharmuta

ron paul takes money from nazis.

I'd take money from nazis. They wouldn't get anything for it but I'd take their money. ;)

102

PSGInfinity Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:07:03pm

re: #98 Empire1

Yep! Omnist, grabbed by Ganesha. I used to be a moderator on a Pagan board which was -mostly- Wiccan-oriented, but I can get along with just about anyone except Volkish Asatruar. Tthe non-Volkish are great good fun to be around, if you like beer and guns!

103

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:07:26pm

re: #90 brookly red

Like McCain, I've seen him kowtow to the creationist wing as well, but perhaps his recent conversion to Catholicism will change that stance? Who Knows?
As a Baptist running for office from Baptist country, he's pretty much had to toe that line in the past.

104

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:07:36pm

re: #86 AuntAcid

John McCain did a Discovery Institute event.

105

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:07:38pm

re: #91 MandyManners

How is this a repudiation of the GOP? Claitor's a Republican.

That's not my point -- I said it looks like voters are starting to repudiate creationist GOP members.

106

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:07:57pm

re: #63 Charles

It is true. I've been checking and almost every major GOP politician is either an outright young earth creationist, or a disguised "intelligent design" creationist.

Blech. I thank you for doing the research, but that's awfully discouraging.

107

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:08:01pm

re: #69 Sunlight

Bingo. I think I've pointed out before that my mother, a lifelong Dem Episcopalian, was convinced at her death that her daughter (me!) and my family are going to hell for being Jewish (I converted) and had very little to do with us. I didn't know why until after her death. She had left the church for some years and went back, where they had some program that taught her final beliefs. I was stunned. I don't understand what is going on in churches in this country now. Not what I grew up in.

It's Protestant churches with that problem (Orthodox churches have their own issues, like MAJOR antiSemitism and also Serb apologetic; and yes, Catholics have our own crates of bad apples, like the one Charles posted on lately).

I wonder if that Episcopalian church was one of those which reorganised itself as a Kenyan Anglican one because of Teh Ghey. You wouldn't normally think of Episcopalians as hardcore, not since oh, Henry VIII or so, but there's some crazy shit going on in there these days.

FWIW, we do teach that Rabbinic Judaism is wrong from a Catholic standpoint, like Jews teach that Christianity is wrong from a Jewish perspective; but we don't obsess over it, and we don't even teach that they're hellbound. Our priest told us that since eternal Hell is possible, we're not supposed to say ANYONE is hellbound. That's up to God.

108

brookly red Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:08:09pm

re: #96 doppelganglander

Newt needs to stay home. He is irreparably damaged in the public eye and has no chance of winning.

maybe so, but I am still curious...

109

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:08:25pm

re: #98 Empire1

Yep! Omnist, grabbed by Ganesha. I used to be a moderator on a Pagan board which was -mostly- Wiccan-oriented, but I can get along with just about anyone except Volkish Asatruar. Tthe non-Volkish are great good fun to be around, if you like beer and guns!

I consider myself to be an eclectic Pagan, with Wiccan sympathies. But I'm not fundamentalist about it...;~)

110

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:08:33pm

re: #99 Salamantis

He sure took money from Don Black, the proprietor of the Neonazi White Supremacist website Stormfront, and for quite a while Stormfront included a Ron Paul donation widget on their website.

They also campaigned for him by "Storming the Iowa Caucus" from out of state. {get it? Storming... wasn't that cute...}

111

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:08:53pm

re: #103 Thanos

Like McCain, I've seen him kowtow to the creationist wing as well, but perhaps his recent conversion to Catholicism will change that stance? Who Knows?
As a Baptist running for office from Baptist country, he's pretty much had to toe that line in the past.

In the past Newt was very supportive of science, but I'm still concerned he's pandering to the RR.

112

brookly red Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:09:05pm

re: #103 Thanos

thank you.

113

FrogMarch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:09:07pm

re: #76 Colonel Panik

Steve Huntsman is Utah Gov. Whatever his private personal beliefs are, he does not endorse teaching creationism in schools.
Mandy had some good posts about him recently.

That's the kicker for me. If someone personally believes that God created everything (in whatever manner they hold that belief) and that belief is held privately and not pushed on others or used as a political policy to push in our schools - I do not have a problem. I would guess that most politicians who are Christian beleive God created everything.

114

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:09:08pm

re: #84 Charles

Neither Giuliani nor Romney are acceptable to the GOP.

Given that the GOP nominated McCain over Huckabee, and that Romney was in third place, you could just as easily argue that the natural majority of the GOP rejects creationism.

And I don't know how you define "unacceptable to the GOP" with respect to Giuliani or Romney. Giuliani himself described McCain as a virtual reflection of the former's beliefs.

115

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:10:07pm

116

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:10:35pm

re: #95 MandyManners

What about Cantor? I've found NOTHING about his POV on this.

Cantor, unfortunately, seems to have spouse problems - his wife work for some bank and therefore he is not coming out 100% against the Dems. He's waffling, voting present, etc. Very sad because I was hoping he would move out front.

117

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:10:45pm

Ron Paul on an evolution question, definitely not supportive of evolution, but a political answer that doesn't truly pin him down either way:

Youtube Video

118

zombie Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:11:14pm

It's absolutely bizarre to see politicians of this stripe out in the open. In California, if you spoke that plainly about your creationism + anti-single mother agenda, you'd get about 5% of the vote max, regardless of your party affiliation.

Good to see that this throwback was ousted by another Republican. It'd be a shame if the only alternative to his agenda was a liberal Democrat. If those were the choices, I actually would have to stay home.

119

pink freud Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:11:20pm

re: #85 anchors_aweigh

Good post there ....are you local?

120

esch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:11:25pm

re: #109 Salamantis

I consider myself to be an eclectic Pagan, with Wiccan sympathies. But I'm not fundamentalist about it...;~)

That's cool. I dabbled in that realm for a while.

121

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:11:54pm

re: #114 stuiec

Given that the GOP nominated McCain over Huckabee, and that Romney was in third place, you could just as easily argue that the natural majority of the GOP rejects creationism.

Uh, no ... you can't argue that at all. In state after state, Republicans are behind the move to get creationism into schools. This is a problem exclusively on the GOP side, and it's extremely prevalent.

122

unrealizedviewpoint Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:11:56pm

re: #81 Sharmuta

It means engage your GAZE-dar.

LOL
a rotating nominate

123

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:12:02pm

re: #105 Charles

That's not my point -- I said it looks like voters are starting to repudiate creationist GOP members.

Duh. I took too many DENSE pills today. My apologies.

124

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:12:37pm

re: #84 Charles

As someone who supported both Giuliani (first choice) and Romney (second choice) in the GOP primaries, I don't agree with you. And I'll add: the feckless, incompetent John McCain, whom Obama bested, wasn't a creationist either.

Giuliani remains a strong contender for elective office here in N.Y. And I wouldn't count Romney out nationally either.

125

LionOfDixon Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:13:10pm

I don't care whether they teach evolution or creationism in school...just as long as the children can read the damn book, spell correctly and do math. In fact, teaching the differences of opinions on the subject would probably be a great exercise in critical thinking....just so long as both points of view are presented fairly.

126

VioletTiger Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:14:00pm

re: #113 FrogMarch

That's the kicker for me. If someone personally believes that God created everything (in whatever manner they hold that belief) and that belief is held privately and not pushed on others or used as a political policy to push in our schools - I do not have a problem. I would guess that most politicians who are Christian believe God created everything.

I agree. I am not particularly concerned with their private beliefs. It's what they do in public to push their beliefs on others that concerns me.
I'd have the same concerns about any other religious group doing the same sort of thing.

127

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:14:06pm

128

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:14:19pm

re: #124 quickjustice

As someone who supported both Giuliani (first choice) and Romney (second choice) in the GOP primaries, I don't agree with you. And I'll add: the feckless, incompetent John McCain, whom Obama bested, wasn't a creationist either.

Giuliani remains a strong contender for elective office here in N.Y. And I wouldn't count Romney out nationally either.

I will be very surprised if either Giuliani or Romney are ever presidential nominees for the GOP. They simply don't toe the line on too many fundamentalist issues.

129

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:14:48pm

I would again ask everyone to read A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell, as it has become clear to me that the creationist wing of the republican party are not of the same mindset as conservatives (of the Goldwater mold). There are two visions duking it out in the GOP- those that support the Constitution and those that think the political solution is the Bible.

Now- I'm all in favor of folks clinging to their Bibles as much as they want up to the point they think it should dominate life in America more than the Constitution. I think most Americans would agree, and it's why we're seeing electoral losses for those who promote creationism in schools.

130

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:15:09pm

re: #123 MandyManners

Get used to the jump drive yet?

131

conservativeChick Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:15:16pm

Go good Charles! I believe people like yourself are raising awareness about this important issue with fellow conservative. Keep it up.

132

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:15:19pm

re: #125 LionOfDixon

I don't care whether they teach evolution or creationism in school...just as long as the children can read the damn book, spell correctly and do math. In fact, teaching the differences of opinions on the subject would probably be a great exercise in critical thinking....just so long as both points of view are presented fairly.

but you can't teach creationism in school unless it's promoted as science...and it isn't...you should care

133

The Shadow Do Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:15:40pm

I think a lot of conservatives would welcome a do-over with Romney about now. I know I would.

134

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:15:45pm

re: #38 Zimriel

We Catholics do have saints...

Yep ... which we Omnist-path Pagans consider gods, as they are the proximate causes of miracles. Hope that doesn't bother you!

I happen to like Mary, and used to make rosaries until my wrists and knuckles started objecting to the motions needed to bed the wire. Drat it!

135

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:15:47pm

The issue is not whether somebody is a creationist; it's whether they believe it should be taught in public schools, and support of disingenuous legislation enabling it, without dealing with the dialog in an open debate devoid of doublespeak.

I could vote for a creationist, if they support evolution only in schools.

That is all.

136

conservativeChick Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:15:48pm

re: #131 conservativeChick

Go good Charles! I believe people like yourself are raising awareness about this important issue with fellow conservative. Keep it up.

I meant good. Sorry.

137

anchors_aweigh Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:16:07pm

re: #119 pink freud

Not my work. That was quoted from the local fish wrap, I guess I should have made that plain. Not local, just trying understand the agendas.

138

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:16:33pm

re: #125 LionOfDixon

I don't care whether they teach evolution or creationism in school...just as long as the children can read the damn book, spell correctly and do math. In fact, teaching the differences of opinions on the subject would probably be a great exercise in critical thinking....just so long as both points of view are presented fairly.

Creationism is not empirical science, but religious dogma, while evolution is indeed empirical science, as vast masses of empirical evidence support evolution and no credible empirical evidence contradicts it, while not a single solitary shred of credible empirical evidence supports creationism, and a lot of empirical evidence contradicts the literal reading of the book of Genesis.

Empirical science belongs in public high school science class; religious dogma does not.

139

VioletTiger Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:16:34pm

re: #133 The Shadow Do

I think a lot of conservatives would welcome a do-over with Romney about now. I know I would.

Just think of what he could be doing for the economy. ...sigh...

140

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:17:38pm

re: #133 The Shadow Do

I think a lot of conservatives would welcome a do-over with Romney about now. I know I would.

re: #139 VioletTiger

Just think of what he could be doing for the economy. ...sigh...

From the things he's doing right now, you'll get that chance in 2012

141

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:17:42pm

re: #125 LionOfDixon

I don't care whether they teach evolution or creationism in school...just as long as the children can read the damn book, spell correctly and do math. In fact, teaching the differences of opinions on the subject would probably be a great exercise in critical thinking....just so long as both points of view are presented fairly.

But it's not science. It's religion. I don't want the public schools teaching kids about a subject they care less about than actual parents. You'd be taking away the parents rights to teach their kids the faith of their choice! And that should matter to everyone.

142

FrogMarch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:17:52pm

re: #126 VioletTiger

I agree. I am not particularly concerned with their private beliefs. It's what they do in public to push their beliefs on others that concerns me.
I'd have the same concerns about any other religious group doing the same sort of thing.

Precisely.

143

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:18:27pm

re: #139 VioletTiger

Just think of what he could be doing for the economy. ...sigh...

I don't even want to think about it...my future is on the ropes right now and I personally need the market to gain about 3000 points to feel okay about it

144

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:18:51pm

Okay, we're past 100...

OT: From Mark Steyn this morning at The National Review

"Life-prolonging": Who needs it? [Mark Steyn]

This subordinate clause from The Irish Independent gave me pause:

For those who can't afford even that, there are the food queues. All across the country, people struggle desperately to hang onto their jobs, their homes, their lives. Next Tuesday, having already decided to deprive Cystic Fibrosis patients of life-prolonging treatment units, the Government will announce new ways to help us "share the pain".

There'll be a lot more of that in our future. If you look at the math on which the developed world is betting the future, government health systems will have huge incentives to develop ever greater institutional biases against "life-prolonging".

[UPDATE: Whoops. Put me down for half an hour in the S&M* dungeon. An English teacher writes:

"Having already decided to deprive Cystic Fibrosis patients of life-prolonging treatment units" is not a subordinate clause; it doesn't have a subject for the verb "decided." It is in fact a participle phrase modifying the subject of the main clause, "the Government."

*Subordination & Modification.]

Guess who the English teacher was?

PS: Here's my actual email to him

Dear Mr. Steyn,

With respect, "having already decided to deprive Cystic Fibrosis patients of life-prolonging treatment units" is not a subordinate clause; it doesn't have a subject for the verb "decided". It is in fact a participle phrase modifying the subject of the main clause, "the Government."

This is a very small mistake and does not interfere with the meaning of your excellent comment. However, as one of the last English teachers in the country who actually understands and teaches grammar, I felt compelled to point this out.

145

jwb7605 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:18:52pm

re: #135 BigPapa

The issue is not whether somebody is a creationist; it's whether they believe it should be taught in public schools, and support of disingenuous legislation enabling it, without dealing with the dialog in an open debate devoid of doublespeak.

I could vote for a creationist, if they support evolution only in schools.

That is all.

Well said.
If I waited to find a candidate I didn't have some issue with, I couldn't vote. What used to be the lesser of two evils seems to be headed toward which equal evil I can tolerate.

146

pink freud Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:18:57pm

re: #129 Sharmuta

Political Pullback for the Christian Right? by Kathleen Pakrer (blech!)

and

The End of Christian America (more blech!)

Both published in the last twenty four hours. Applicable to your Sowell post. (You and Syrah have got me about ready to order that book.)

147

LionOfDixon Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:19:25pm

re: #132 albusteve

Funny, but I remember hearing in science classes a lot of disproven scientific theories....I.e. that the earth was the center of the Universe vice Galileo's findings.....or that the heart was the center of reason, instead of the head.

In fact, one of the best ways to teach science is by disproving other theories.....creationism is a theory....that is all....it is teachable even if one does not believe in it.

148

The Shadow Do Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:19:33pm

I also think that social conservatives had best get used to riding in the back seat. The times are too serious for all that holier than thou crapola that has held such sway in the party for much too long. Foreign and fiscal policy discussions may actually get a hearing going forward. Enough the the sideshow Shivo distractions.

149

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:19:39pm

I will also once again ask my fellow Lizards to get involved politically. The best way to assure we don't get a Jindal or Huckabee is through involvement. The best way to support a Romney of Giuliani is through involvement.

150

zombie Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:20:05pm

re: #114 stuiec

Given that the GOP nominated McCain over Huckabee, and that Romney was in third place, you could just as easily argue that the natural majority of the GOP rejects creationism.

And I don't know how you define "unacceptable to the GOP" with respect to Giuliani or Romney. Giuliani himself described McCain as a virtual reflection of the former's beliefs.

re: #121 Charles

Uh, no ... you can't argue that at all. In state after state, Republicans are behind the move to get creationism into schools. This is a problem exclusively on the GOP side, and it's extremely prevalent.

I think there's a big disconnect between Republican voters and Republican politicians. I would argue that a majority of Republicans voters are against creationism, or at most have "no opinion." But the Republican politicians in the leadership positions are trying to pander to a certain category of voters whom they perceive are strongly religious, which they feel includes support for creationism.

I think the politicians think they can pander on this one issue and skate by with the rest of the voters. But by pandering on this specific issue, they're actually turning a lot of people off.

Charles seems to be drawing a line in the sand, saying this is a deal-breaker, at least for him. (Me too, actually.) Sort of an electronic "I support evolution and I vote" bumper sticker. That doesn't mean I'll vote Democratic. If I was ever faced with a choice between a pro-creationism Republican candidate who was in a position to influence policy on this issue versus a liberal Democrat, I would indeed stay home and not vote.

151

lostlakehiker Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:20:16pm

Everyone except the eventual nominee can be rated as unacceptable to the GOP, if you stretch the meaning of the word.

Adopt a different standard, such as the top half of the nominee field is acceptable, and you get different statistics. Romney and McCain were both acceptable, for instance. Ron Paul was not.

"Intelligent design" is a fairly wide tent. Theologically, you could argue that the most intelligent design of all is the one that gets the job done with the least amount of further hands-on course corrections needed. By that standard, creating a universe which, running with the laws of physics it has, is effectively bound to bring forth abundant life on myriad planets, has to count as a brilliant way to create life.

So somebody who gives a nod to intelligent design has managed to straddle the controversy. Having it both ways is an old if not all that honorable political ploy. We see it with the democrats, who are against NAFTA except when they're for it, and that's except when they're against it. The message is determined by the audience, and you never know how they really stand until a bill passes with NAFTA provisions in it. And is enforced.

152

pink freud Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:20:36pm

re: #137 anchors_aweigh

Yes, I gathered you'd cut and pasted. Still, for a local like me, it is interesting reading.

Welcome!

153

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:20:37pm

re: #125 LionOfDixon

Lion,

Teaching creationism and evolution 'equally' as an exercise in critical thinking is fallacy. One is science, the other is not.

Creationism belongs in theology class or Sunday school, not public school.

154

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:20:39pm

re: #125 LionOfDixon

I don't care whether they teach evolution or creationism in school...just as long as the children can read the damn book, spell correctly and do math. In fact, teaching the differences of opinions on the subject would probably be a great exercise in critical thinking....just so long as both points of view are presented fairly.

Maybe the Sciencetology version of man's existance would also be acceptable to you?

155

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:04pm

re: #146 pink freud

About ready? Just do it- you won't be sorry!

156

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:21pm

re: #107 Zimriel

Say thanks to your priest. I have no problem with people thinking each other are wrong, but I do have issues with:

- people believing certain things and then trying to bring them about

- people believing in afterlife conditions that cause shunning (or family splitting!) in this world

I don't care what they believe, but we live in America and need to allow equal opportunity to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Almost all of these types of things can be dealt with by employing courtesy (the really old fashioned kind) and law enforcement (for traditions that impose on the neighbors) rather than trying to change or degrade the other.

157

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:27pm

The part some commenters are missing is that any R candidate who doesn't toe the creationist and SoCon line gets labeled RINO, and a spiteful nihilistic attack machine goes after them immediately. The same is true of bloggers, look at the crap Allahpundit is taking over at Hotair as an example. Dissent or different viewpoints are not tolerated by the creationists and RR.

158

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:32pm

Much more important stuff to teach kids in public school.
Reading
Writing
Arithmetic

And perhaps an elective class on how to write a resume would be beneficial.

159

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:33pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

Funny, but I remember hearing in science classes a lot of disproven scientific theories....I.e. that the earth was the center of the Universe vice Galileo's findings.....or that the heart was the center of reason, instead of the head.

In fact, one of the best ways to teach science is by disproving other theories.....creationism is a theory....that is all....it is teachable even if one does not believe in it.

bullshit...quickly outline the science supporting creationism and yes the earth was thought to be flat until proven otherwise

160

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:46pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

There isn't a single shread of evidence to support creation "science". None.

161

pink freud Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:54pm

re: #144 goddessoftheclassroom

WOOT!

162

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:21:57pm

re: #118 zombie

It's absolutely bizarre to see politicians of this stripe out in the open. In California, if you spoke that plainly about your creationism + anti-single mother agenda, you'd get about 5% of the vote max, regardless of your party affiliation.

Good to see that this throwback was ousted by another Republican. It'd be a shame if the only alternative to his agenda was a liberal Democrat. If those were the choices, I actually would have to stay home.

Never stay home.

163

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:22:21pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

In the scientific sense of the word "theory", creationism is not a theory. It is a religious belief. And that is all it is.

164

abolitionist Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:22:25pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

John McCain did a Discovery Institute event.

Yes he did, sort of.

U.S. Senator John McCain in Seattle, WA (note -- DI website)

McCain Speech Tied to Intelligent Design Group Draws Fire Excerpts:

Intelligent Design Supporters Co-Present Event, But Darwin Is Not Subject of Speeches
McCain is beng hammered by a liberal group for associating with the Discovery Institute, although the luncheon is being formally hosted by the CityClub of Seattle and the Seattle World Affairs Council, with the Discovery Institute is one of nine organizations "co-presenting" the event.

165

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:22:57pm

re: #135 BigPapa

I could vote for a creationist, if they support evolution only in schools.

The problem, though, is that people whose views are so extreme that they reject most of modern science (and that's what creationism does -- you simply can't be a creationist without being anti-science) are almost always the type of people who want to impose their views on everyone's children. They're proselytizers.

166

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:23:54pm

re: #165 Charles

They're proselytizers.

Which the Wedge Strategy makes quite clear.

167

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:23:58pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

Funny, but I remember hearing in science classes a lot of disproven scientific theories....I.e. that the earth was the center of the Universe vice Galileo's findings.....or that the heart was the center of reason, instead of the head.

In fact, one of the best ways to teach science is by disproving other theories.....creationism is a theory....that is all....it is teachable even if one does not believe in it.

Creationism is not a scientific theory, but a religious dogma, while evolution is indeed a scientific theory, according to the definition of scientific theory:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

According to the United States National Academy of Sciences,

"Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena."

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact."

Sal: There is no body of empirical facts that support creationism, so it cannot be a scientific theory.

And the ancient history of science is a study in history, not in science.

168

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:24:07pm

re: #144 goddessoftheclassroom

You go Goddess! Correcting the Steyn with an ack, (bow).

169

simonml Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:24:16pm

I don't want Creationism taught in school but I also don't want Calculus taught in school.

The former because its not fact, but religion. The latter because its just too dang hard!

170

doppelganglander Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:24:24pm

re: #144 goddessoftheclassroom

Congratulations! That ranks up there with a brief correspondence I once had with Derb on the subject of vocational education.

171

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:24:38pm

Wedge strategy

172

VioletTiger Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:25:03pm

re: #150 zombie

I think there's a big disconnect between Republican voters and Republican politicians. I would argue that a majority of Republicans voters are against creationism, or at most have "no opinion." But the Republican politicians in the leadership positions are trying to pander to a certain category of voters whom they perceive are strongly religious, which they feel includes support for creationism.

I think the politicians think they can pander on this one issue and skate by with the rest of the voters. But by pandering on this specific issue, they're actually turning a lot of people off.

Charles seems to be drawing a line in the sand, saying this is a deal-breaker, at least for him. (Me too, actually.) Sort of an electronic "I support evolution and I vote" bumper sticker. That doesn't mean I'll vote Democratic. If I was ever faced with a choice between a pro-creationism Republican candidate who was in a position to influence policy on this issue versus a liberal Democrat, I would indeed stay home and not vote.

Good points. I don't think the current candidates fully reflect the voters, however, they have survived because the alternative was somebody like Obama. If need to get potential candidates to realize that there are other reliable voting bocks out there, other than the typical creationist sort they usually pander to.

173

jcm Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:25:07pm

Science in science class, not religion creationism or AGW.
Math in math class, not diversity or feel good answers.
Civics in civics class, not Ayers rabble rousing.
Reading in reading class, classics not I, Rigoberta Menchu
Writing in writing class, I'll let GOTC fill this one in.
PE in PE.
And
Music in Music, not any of the Jazz stuff! (okay that was /sarc for Charles).
Above all critical thinking in all of it.

That about covers it.

174

pink freud Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:25:21pm

re: #155 Sharmuta

I just love Thomas Sowell. However, my Liberty and Tyranny book just arrived, along with an analysis and treatment tome on reactive attachment disorder which needs to be read in a hurry for a research paper I am working on. Sowell will be my end-of-semester reward.

175

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:25:25pm

re: #144 goddessoftheclassroom

Waxed one Steyn (in the nicest possible way, of course)!

176

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:25:45pm

re: #158 Racer X

And perhaps an elective class on how to write a resume would be beneficial.

Fo sho! I look at about 100 resumes a year and get 4 or 5 that are really well done.

177

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:25:55pm

"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."

-Phillip Johnson, father of the Wedge

178

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:26:10pm

re: #169 simonml

I don't want Creationism taught in school but I also don't want Calculus taught in school.

The former because its not fact, but religion. The latter because its just too dang hard!

I know you're kidding about the calculus, but honestly, nothing is too hard if it's taught well to an eager learner.

179

Buster Bunny Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:26:17pm

re: #165 Charles

The problem, though, is that people whose views are so extreme that they reject most of modern science (and that's what creationism does -- you simply can't be a creationist without being anti-science) are almost always the type of people who want to impose their views on everyone's children. They're proselytizers.

The problem is that we ACCEPT that these people who without the modern society they live in, wouldn't be able to tie their own shoelaces together, are going to have a governing/suppressionist role in the rest of our lives !

Thats something to be 100% worried about.

180

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:26:20pm

re: #125 LionOfDixon

I don't care whether they teach evolution or creationism in school...just as long as the children can read the damn book, spell correctly and do math. In fact, teaching the differences of opinions on the subject would probably be a great exercise in critical thinking....just so long as both points of view are presented fairly.

Uh, no. The church people are unable to attract the kids to their churches. They are trying to use the schools, just as the marxist left has done, to get their claws into more kids. Both sides think their way is the best for the kids, but neither is. I'd also like to get the leftist agenda out of the schools. No sense adding another ideological brainwash to the mix.

181

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:26:23pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

Funny, but I remember hearing in science classes a lot of disproven scientific theories....I.e. that the earth was the center of the Universe vice Galileo's findings.....or that the heart was the center of reason, instead of the head.

In fact, one of the best ways to teach science is by disproving other theories.....creationism is a theory....that is all....it is teachable even if one does not believe in it.

And how much of that knowledge was known to man before religion suppressed it? ?

182

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:26:40pm

re: #111 Sharmuta
Newt was on FNS and has converted from Baptist to Catholic. What this means I don't know.

183

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:27:07pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."

-Phillip Johnson, father of the Wedge

"Give me your lunch money"

19th century 6th grade bully ,,,, father of the Wedgie

184

jwb7605 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:27:22pm

re: #165 Charles

The problem, though, is that people whose views are so extreme that they reject most of modern science (and that's what creationism does -- you simply can't be a creationist without being anti-science) are almost always the type of people who want to impose their views on everyone's children. They're proselytizers.

I was challenged (and challenged, and challenged) to take the political profile quiz on Facebook. I relented. I'm "moderately conservative". The reason for that is that I couldn't answer a lot of the questions "strongly agree" when it came down to personal choices and government control. I had trouble on a few questions even checking "agree".

Ergo, "conservatism" equates to "religious fundamentalism" by a lot of standards.

Sucks. Big Time.

185

pink freud Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:27:42pm

re: #182 pingjockey

Newt was on FNS and has converted from Baptist to Catholic. What this means I don't know.

It wasn't done for nothing. He's positioning himself for ............?

186

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:27:56pm

More from Phillip Johnson:

Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

This isn't about critical thinking for them, this is about proselytizing.

187

jwb7605 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:28:46pm

re: #182 pingjockey

Newt was on FNS and has converted from Baptist to Catholic. What this means I don't know.

He started drinking?
///

188

zombie Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:28:50pm

re: #162 Sunlight

Never stay home.

How could I possibly bring myself to vote for a creationist in a policy-forming opinion, or a surrender-monkey liberal? It's an impossible dilemma.

I probably wouldn't "stay home" becuase there are invariably other issues to vote for (state propositions, etc.), but in that particular race I would either not vote or (my usual strategy) vote for the most bizarrely named third-party candidate ("Theobald O'Snootsnoot" for example).

189

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:28:53pm

re: #171 Sharmuta

The whole title of 'Wedge' strategy has some serious negative connotations. Maybe they could have called it the Genesis Outreach program and not had such the sinister implication.

190

lostlakehiker Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:29:27pm

re: #125 LionOfDixon

I don't care whether they teach evolution or creationism in school...just as long as the children can read the damn book, spell correctly and do math. In fact, teaching the differences of opinions on the subject would probably be a great exercise in critical thinking....just so long as both points of view are presented fairly.

Sorry, but it wouldn't be a great exercise in critical thinking. It would be like studying differences of opinion concerning the nature of heat. Is it phlogiston, or is it random molecular motion?

The quality of scientific evidence for the abandoned theory is just not in the same league as the quality of evidence for the now-accepted theory. But it takes much more sophisticated mastery of physics and math than will be at the disposal of schoolchildren to work through the logic of random molecular motion. Einstein won a Nobel prize partly on the strength of a paper that solidified that logic. Brownian motion, you see, is a logical consequence of that molecular motion, and he computed out the details and they agreed with the technical details of brownian motion.

Before all this was understood, there were great minds who wrote careful essays on the nature and properties of phlogiston. Now, shall we throw this dilemma at children? Einstein had to work for months to get to the heart of it.

There is a right answer and a wrong answer to the phlogiston/molecular debate. The question is settled. But the flawed reasoning of great minds was sufficiently persuasive that other great minds took up that torch and carried it a pace. Children have no fair chance to learn from this kind of puzzle how to exercise critical thinking. They need easier puzzles, where the path to a right answer, and the flaws in the wrong answer, are within their reach.

Presented puzzles that are utterly beyond them, they can only learn that there is no such thing as truth, but rather, every question has two sides and the right side is your team's side.

191

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:29:36pm

re: #83 Salamantis

Some of the events depicted in the Bible are indeed historical events; others are not. But which are which is something that must be verified independent of Biblical mention.

Indeed. But historical anylysis, as stated, wasn't what I was discussing. Anything in the Bible (or any other holy book) that can be subjected to objective analysis should be, so those who wish objective truth can have it without necessarily having to do individual analysis.

Faith, on the other hand, is not subject to objective analysis, and cannot be.

192

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:29:46pm

re: #182 pingjockey

Newt was on FNS and has converted from Baptist to Catholic. What this means I don't know.

re: #187 jwb7605

193

esch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:29:46pm

re: #189 BigPapa

The whole title of 'Wedge' strategy has some serious negative connotations. Maybe they could have called it the Genesis Outreach program and not had such the sinister implication.

KHAAAAAAAN!

194

FrogMarch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:29:56pm

If memory serves, Romney won the primary caucus here in Colorado.
*proud to say*

195

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:30:28pm

I've about had it with the GOP...I gave them 200$ last summer and now I regret it...I may become apolitical on the national level, and NM is totally donked out...I feel like I'm sort of adrift

196

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:30:53pm

re: #180 Sunlight

As a "church person", I'll tell you that's untrue. Ann Coulter's creationist church (Redeemer, here in NYC) packs in the crowds, and is growing rapidly. They must have close to 10,000 members. My liberal church, while supportive of evolution, is shrinking rapidly. The creationist churches do a better job of religious indoctrination, based upon a literal reading of the Christian Bible. They're very committed to that cause.

That said, they're still wrong about evolution.

197

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:31:12pm

re: #186 Sharmuta

Or worse: Johnson has no faith in his Faith and wants to strengthen it by proselytizing.

198

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:31:12pm

re: #189 BigPapa

The whole title of 'Wedge' strategy has some serious negative connotations. Maybe they could have called it the Genesis Outreach program and not had such the sinister implication.

That would have revealed their intent too quickly, although it was never intended to be a public document in the first place. It was outed by a copy shop employee, so let that be a lesson to people with sensitive documents- Kinkos and other such companies do not have confidentiality agreements.

199

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:31:13pm

re: #189 BigPapa

The whole title of 'Wedge' strategy has some serious negative connotations. Maybe they could have called it the Genesis Outreach program and not had such the sinister implication.

I think that since their program itself is sinister - pushing for religious indoctrination in public schools - that they serendipitously chose a proper name for it.

200

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:31:14pm

re: #182 pingjockey

Newt was on FNS and has converted from Baptist to Catholic. What this means I don't know.

re: #187 jwb7605

He started drinking?
///

nope ,,, he wanted to be on a winning softball team in the inter-faith leagues for once !

201

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:31:16pm

re: #121 Charles

Uh, no ... you can't argue that at all. In state after state, Republicans are behind the move to get creationism into schools. This is a problem exclusively on the GOP side, and it's extremely prevalent.

You're arguing that since the vast majority of creationists are Republicans, the vast majority of Republicans are creationists.

If you look at the white supremacist parties in Europe, the vast majority of their members are white. Does that imply that the vast majority of white Europeans are white supremacists?

202

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:32:06pm

re: #188 zombie

'Surrender monkey?' is that like 'Rally monkey?' I like it, very much. I'll try and keep using it.

203

abolitionist Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:32:13pm

re: #189 BigPapa

The whole title of 'Wedge' strategy has some serious negative connotations. Maybe they could have called it the Genesis Outreach program and not had such the sinister implication.

I understand it was not intended to be made public, so PR would not have been that big a consideration.

204

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:33:12pm

re: #202 BigPapa

'Surrender monkey?' is that like 'Rally monkey?' I like it, very much. I'll try and keep using it.

I prefer the Trunk Monkey

Youtube Video

205

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:33:18pm

re: #197 BigPapa

Or worse: Johnson has no faith in his Faith and wants to strengthen it by proselytizing.

That's what I tend to think- it's a sign of weak faith to not be able to reconcile God and nature, as that's all science is- the study of the natural universe. Science helps me appreciate God more through understanding just how amazing the universe is. I feel sorry for folks who think science is God's enemy.

206

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:34:06pm

re: #201 stuiec

Bullshit. Charles has pointed out many times that it's the leadership of the Republican party doing this, not the masses.

Strawman

207

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:34:14pm

re: #102 PSGInfinity

Um, what question or questions? I'll try to answer, if I can, but I'm no good at guessing.

208

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:34:19pm

re: #204 sattv4u2
I liked the monkey(actually a chimp) that would sling poo at the zoo goers in San Diego when he got bored.

209

Mr Secul Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:34:25pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

In fact, one of the best ways to teach science is by disproving other theories.....creationism is a theory....that is all....it is teachable even if one does not believe in it.

Are you suggesting that teachers in public schools disprove a religious tenet in order to teach critical thinking skills?

Wouldn't that be unconstitutional?

210

esch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:34:53pm

re: #195 albusteve

I've about had it with the GOP...I gave them 200$ last summer and now I regret it...I may become apolitical on the national level, and NM is totally donked out...I feel like I'm sort of adrift

Let's see. My support of the GOP has given me Ellison and (probably) Franken. And many if not most Republican leaders would despise me because I don't believe as they do.

I'm pretty well done with them.

211

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:35:24pm

re: #204 sattv4u2

I prefer the Trunk Monkey

[Video]

I prefer Monkey3.

Youtube Video

212

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:35:25pm

re: #210 esch

Let's see. My support of the GOP has given me Ellison and (probably) Franken. And many if not most Republican leaders would despise me because I don't believe as they do.

I'm pretty well done with them.

How so?

213

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:35:32pm

re: #201 stuiec

You're arguing that since the vast majority of creationists are Republicans, the vast majority of Republicans are creationists.

If you look at the white supremacist parties in Europe, the vast majority of their members are white. Does that imply that the vast majority of white Europeans are white supremacists?

But 60% of republicans ARE creationists, of the fundamentalist Biblical Literalist Young Earth variety:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

214

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:35:43pm

re: #210 esch

Teaching the "weaknesses" of evolution is a plank in the MN GOP platform.

215

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:35:51pm

re: #198 Sharmuta

You're right, and therein lies the rub. It makes sense that it was never meant for public consumption with that in mind. It's totally subvertive... which is what LGF has been stating all along.

If you want creationism in public schools, don't be subvertive. It makes you look guilty.

216

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:36:15pm

re: #213 Salamantis
Holy Nutbars! That is disturbing.

217

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:36:56pm

re: #188 zombie

It's "cheese-eating surrender monkey", IIRC.

218

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:37:00pm

re: #201 stuiec

You're arguing that since the vast majority of creationists are Republicans, the vast majority of Republicans are creationists.

No, I'm not. I've said very clearly that it's difficult to find a GOP politician who isn't a creationist. "Politician."

219

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:37:02pm

re: #215 BigPapa

You're right, and therein lies the rub. It makes sense that it was never meant for public consumption with that in mind. It's totally subvertive... which is what LGF has been stating all along.

If you want creationism in public schools, don't be subvertive. It makes you look guilty.

I would still disagree with them as strongly as I do now, but if they were being honest, I could perhaps have a bit more respect for their position. It's hard to respect a liar.

220

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:37:02pm

re: #204 sattv4u2

I prefer the Trunk Monkey

Youtube Video

I like Code Monkey.

Youtube Video

221

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:37:12pm

222

Jimash Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:37:28pm

re: #173 jcm

"Science in science class, not religion creationism or AGW.
"

My kid has been subjected to Al Gore's award winning motion picture three times now. In School.

Intelligent design attempts to rework SO MUCH science out to the limits of cosmology to make their neurosis consistent, that were it to be accepted as science, nothing would work.

It isn't my fault that these dumb people can't tell the myth from the literature from the poetry from the history in the Bible which contains all of them.

223

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:37:56pm

And unfortunately, as the poll linked by Salamantis shows, this is because a majority of Republican voters are also creationists.

224

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:38:02pm

re: #199 Salamantis

True, true. Talk about acting guilty. It's the RR's own version of Cloward Piven.

225

esch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:38:15pm

re: #212 sattv4u2

Allright, maybe that's a bit over the top.

But it does feel like my monetary support has done nothing, and I'm now in one of the bluest spots in the nation. The GOP doesn't seem interested in governing, they're more interested in doing their own kind of social engineering.

226

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:38:19pm

re: #216 pingjockey

Holy Nutbars! That is disturbing.

no kidding....we are in a whole new post Reaganism paradigm now...or maybe it's just the maturation of the RR...

227

Buster Bunny Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:38:45pm

re: #218 Charles

No, I'm not. I've said very clearly that it's difficult to find a GOP politician who isn't a creationist. "Politician."

I never dated roadkill.

So I'm not going to vote for Head Fluff.

Waiting for a GOP candidate with balls.

228

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:39:04pm

re: #226 albusteve
Well, whatever it is I don't like it.

229

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:39:17pm

re: #182 pingjockey

Newt was on FNS and has converted from Baptist to Catholic. What this means I don't know.

WHOA! I had no idea. Yet, it's on Google...

I'm glad Gingrich is keeping mum about his reasons; he's certainly got some, and it wouldn't do to make a ton of noise about it.

I will speculate: Gingrich is a student of history, and one factor in my conversion is the Tradition. The history of Catholicism is the history of post-Roman Europe; just like the history of Islam is the history of the Near East. He may see it as the salvation of the West today.

If that is the case, I would advise him to treat the faith with awe and humility, and not to think of it as a weapon against enemies (particularly Muslims). Catholicism is an excellent weapon, but it only really works against Satan, and it tends to backfire when set against any group of people.

I wish Gingrich good travels in his journey.

230

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:39:45pm

re: #213 Salamantis

But 60% of republicans ARE creationists, of the fundamentalist Biblical Literalist Young Earth variety:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

This leads me to think that many ostensible Republican creationists are merely pandering to the convictions of their perceived political base, regardless of whether or not those convictions are correct. These politicians are not leading, they are following. Just like Dixiecrats did during the Jim Crow era.

231

jwb7605 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:40:05pm

re: #201 stuiec
You're arguing that since the vast majority of creationists are Republicans, the vast majority of Republicans are creationists.

re: #218 Charles

No, I'm not. I've said very clearly that it's difficult to find a GOP politician who isn't a creationist. "Politician."

Recent experiences tell me that you state your position clearly, and the public hears stuiec's message.
OT: Thank you for introducing me to jQuery!

232

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:40:35pm

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

Huh- I'll add that to my list of books to check out. Thanks.

While we're discussing Newton, however, I had a chance to speak to a historian on the subject of Newton and evolution, since so many like to toss him out on these threads as a creationist. The historian agreed that, had Newton had the opportunity to review Darwin's work, it was likely he'd have supported evolution as he was a dedicated man of science. Of course, we'll never know, but it's very disingenuous of creationists on these threads to try to claim Newton as one of their own.

233

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:40:40pm

re: #109 Salamantis

I consider myself to be an eclectic Pagan, with Wiccan sympathies. But I'm not fundamentalist about it...;~)

Since I live on a farm, I tend to celebrate the Wiccan seasons, with the personal difference that I celebrate the First Day of Earlier Sunrise rather than the Winter Solstice as my personal New Year. I'm a day person, after all ...

234

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:40:55pm

re: #195 albusteve

I've about had it with the GOP...I gave them 200$ last summer and now I regret it...I may become apolitical on the national level, and NM is totally donked out...I feel like I'm sort of adrift

Empathy.
I was just thinking of calling some people I know who are involved and see if we can do anything (in NM). I've never been political. I've been talking to my teenagers and they want me to see if anything is going on. PS. Charles, my son is in scouts with lots of religious people (creationist = yes) and they haven't "proselytized" in the 8 yrs we've been involved. So it could work if a candidate were committed to not trying to put it in schools. Somebody tried to start a bill in the legislature a couple of months ago and it never even made it to a committee. But, as albusteve says, we're all donked out, and they wouldn't even.

235

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:41:02pm

re: #230 Salamantis
I guess I'm not venal enough to be a politician.

236

doppelganglander Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:41:22pm

re: #229 Zimriel

WHOA! I had no idea. Yet, it's on Google...

I'm glad Gingrich is keeping mum about his reasons; he's certainly got some, and it wouldn't do to make a ton of noise about it.

I will speculate: Gingrich is a student of history, and one factor in my conversion is the Tradition. The history of Catholicism is the history of post-Roman Europe; just like the history of Islam is the history of the Near East. He may see it as the salvation of the West today.

If that is the case, I would advise him to treat the faith with awe and humility, and not to think of it as a weapon against enemies (particularly Muslims). Catholicism is an excellent weapon, but it only really works against Satan, and it tends to backfire when set against any group of people.

I wish Gingrich good travels in his journey.

I think it's a lot simpler than that. His current wife is Catholic, if I'm not mistaken.

237

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:41:45pm

re: #230 Salamantis

I agree with you. I think it's pandering to the perceived biases of their audience. It takes a contrarian to challenge such biases and come out a winner. That would be Giuliani. I saw him do it in NYC.

238

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:41:48pm

re: #205 Sharmuta

That's what I tend to think- it's a sign of weak faith to not be able to reconcile God and nature, as that's all science is- the study of the natural universe. Science helps me appreciate God more through understanding just how amazing the universe is. I feel sorry for folks who think science is God's enemy.

That was beautifully said. Should I ever become, or return, to faith, that would be the foundation of my belief. I suspect many scientists of faith reconcile in the same way.

239

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:41:52pm

re: #230 Salamantis

This leads me to think that many ostensible Republican creationists are merely pandering to the convictions of their perceived political base, regardless of whether or not those convictions are correct. These politicians are not leading, they are following. Just like Dixiecrats did during the Jim Crow era.

either that or common sense is totally dead...I hope you're right about the herd mentality

240

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:42:00pm

re: #213 Salamantis

But 60% of republicans ARE creationists, of the fundamentalist Biblical Literalist Young Earth variety:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

The question is badly asked, IMHO..

Humans developed over MILLIONS of years, God created
God created humans within the last 10,000 years

They gave a choice of MILLIONS as opposed to 10,000. How many humans can fathom MILLIONS of years? A more accurate question would have been to just leave the # of years out of it. Or more benign,

241

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:42:30pm

re: #213 Salamantis

But 60% of republicans ARE creationists, of the fundamentalist Biblical Literalist Young Earth variety:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

Personally I think alot of the people who say they support creationism don't fully understand all of the doctrine. I have nailed a couple of people with the universe is only 10,000 years old? They have a hard time explaining that.

242

Claire Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:42:44pm

But I still think that even if 60% believe in creationism, they believe that because they haven't given it much thought, and they are not aware of the evidence against it.

With a little education, the light will come on for a good percentage, and even if they pretend to still believe it so as not to upset the other members of their church, or whatever, it may temper their voting choices. Hoping anyway.

243

doppelganglander Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:42:45pm

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

I am currently working my way through Neil Stephenson's novel "Quicksilver", which is set in the late 17th/early 18th century, and which describes the efforts by Newton and other early "natural philosophers" to create science by moving observation away from alchemy, their struggles to deal with both their own attitudes towards religion and the dangerous religio-political currents of the time, etc.

Fascinating stuff.

I struggled with that book and never got more than halfway through. Maybe I will give it another chance. But it's very long, and there are two more parts to the trilogy...

244

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:43:06pm

re: #150 zombie

Charles seems to be drawing a line in the sand, saying this is a deal-breaker, at least for him. (Me too, actually.) Sort of an electronic "I support evolution and I vote" bumper sticker. That doesn't mean I'll vote Democratic. If I was ever faced with a choice between a pro-creationism Republican candidate who was in a position to influence policy on this issue versus a liberal Democrat, I would indeed stay home and not vote.

I would have to do a Franklin ledger to decide whether one or the other of the two candidates was more pernicious on more dimensions of how government affects my life, my family's life and the American way of life. If the choice is between a Republican whose sole vice is wanting creationism taught in the schools and a Democrat who advocates a range of positions that will impinge or destroy my other freedoms, I'll take my chances with the Republican and then fight his creationist impulses in the legislature and courts, with the First Amendment as part of my arsenal.

Ideological purity is an impossible standard for political movements to achieve. The question is where the hard limits lie for what beliefs you can and can't tolerate among your potential political allies.

Example: I'm a Jew, and yet I can't understand Jews who fear support from Evangelicals for Israel based on the idea that "they're only supporting Israel to hasten the end days, when they all go to Heaven and we're all supposed to go to Hell!" My feeling is, if you're truly afraid of the end times and getting cast into the Pit, you're really an Evangelical and not a Jew; in the here and now, if Evangelicals want to give Israel material and spiritual and political support against a host of enemies, we can use the help.

245

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:43:26pm

re: #237 quickjustice

I agree with you. I think it's pandering to the perceived biases of their audience. It takes a contrarian to challenge such biases and come out a winner. That would be Giuliani. I saw him do it in NYC.

And this is exactly why those of us on the right that support science need to get involved and change the audience, as it were.

246

Truck Monkey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:44:02pm

re: #204 sattv4u2

I prefer the Trunk Monkey

Youtube Video

So do I!

247

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:44:36pm

re: #213 Salamantis

But 60% of republicans ARE creationists, of the fundamentalist Biblical Literalist Young Earth variety:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

Then I will concede the point.

248

Claire Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:04pm

I would never "not vote." I lose my ability to criticise if I do that. Have to pick one or the other, or the third and take my lumps.

249

Throbert McGee Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:07pm

re: #3 simonml

wants to ban single Louisiana citizens from adopting children

This last part is to prevent homosexuals from adopting, right?

I would argue that the proposed ban isn't meant to do anything, except to be a bullet-point item on an asshole politician's resume demonstrating that he's "pro-family." He doesn't expect that such a ban would actually become law, though.

250

Buster Bunny Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:07pm

re: #241 screaming_eagle

Personally I think alot of the people who say they support creationism don't fully understand all of the doctrine. I have nailed a couple of people with the universe is only 10,000 years old? They have a hard time explaining that.

Oh come on .. universe is 10k old? Then why does my milk not have a use by date that says USE BEFORE RAPTURE?

251

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:07pm

re: #240 sattv4u2

The question is badly asked, IMHO..

Humans developed over MILLIONS of years, God created
God created humans within the last 10,000 years

They gave a choice of MILLIONS as opposed to 10,000. How many humans can fathom MILLIONS of years? A more accurate question would have been to just leave the # of years out of it. Or more benign,

Wow.

A significant number of Republicans cannot fathom Millions of years?

252

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:26pm

re: #204 sattv4u2

Dude... tears. That was awesome.

253

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:29pm

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

I am currently working my way through Neil Stephenson's novel "Quicksilver", which is set in the late 17th/early 18th century, and which describes the efforts by Newton and other early "natural philosophers" to create science by moving observation away from alchemy, their struggles to deal with both their own attitudes towards religion and the dangerous religio-political currents of the time, etc.

Fascinating stuff.

I LOVE that book and the other two of the trilogy! I'm working on his newest, Anathem.

254

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:55pm

The problem we are faced with is the future. Both Knowledge and societal change are accelerating greatly in a manner that cannot be stopped, and we certainly don't need luddites at the forefront of our political party at this time.

255

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:45:58pm

re: #223 Charles

And unfortunately, as the poll linked by Salamantis shows, this is because a majority of Republican voters are also creationists.

Then I will concede the point.

256

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:46:23pm

re: #244 stuiec

Lesser of two evils is too often the choice in U.S. politics today. That's why I supported John McCain in the general election.

257

horse Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:46:34pm

re: #71 MandyManners

That's a serious ass-kicking!

Indeed! Maybe if they keep getting punched that hard in the nose every time they put an extremest or otherwise weak candidate up for office they will freakin' stop it. But it looks more likely they plan to go down swinging at air while the dems pound them out of the political ring; and we are left outside in the alleyway without access to the fight. With candidates like these, we lose no matter who wins.

258

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:46:38pm

re: #251 Racer X
That is kind of scary.

259

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:46:39pm

re: #232 Sharmuta

Huh- I'll add that to my list of books to check out. Thanks.

While we're discussing Newton, however, I had a chance to speak to a historian on the subject of Newton and evolution, since so many like to toss him out on these threads as a creationist. The historian agreed that, had Newton had the opportunity to review Darwin's work, it was likely he'd have supported evolution as he was a dedicated man of science. Of course, we'll never know, but it's very disingenuous of creationists on these threads to try to claim Newton as one of their own.

I expect Newton would have dismissed Darwin, at first. Newton was the sort of guy who liked to see things follow a mathematical model. Darwin (alone), while formidable in explaining how things got to where they are today, wasn't well anchored in physical processes. (Darwin had no clue about carbon dating, or genes, or the position of continents millions of years ago.) Look how Newton struggled with the idea of a gravitational force.

Modern genetics and biochemistry, though, would have been right up Newton's alley. If we had a Newton today in this post-DNA world, the Singularity would already be here -

260

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:46:49pm

re: #213 Salamantis

re: #240 sattv4u2

The question is badly asked, IMHO..

Humans developed over MILLIONS of years, God created
God created humans within the last 10,000 years

They gave a choice of MILLIONS as opposed to 10,000. How many humans can fathom MILLIONS of years? A more accurate question would have been to just leave the # of years out of it. Or more benign,

CASE IN POINT ,,, Disclaimer at the end of your link

In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.

261

Buster Bunny Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:47:11pm

re: #256 quickjustice

Lesser of two evils is too often the choice in U.S. politics today. That's why I supported John McCain in the general election.

Oh .. we got some evils now. Just unspecified ones, a great known quantity with an unknown direction.

262

jwb7605 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:47:28pm

re: #234 Sunlight

Empathy.
I was just thinking of calling some people I know who are involved and see if we can do anything (in NM). I've never been political. I've been talking to my teenagers and they want me to see if anything is going on. PS. Charles, my son is in scouts with lots of religious people (creationist = yes) and they haven't "proselytized" in the 8 yrs we've been involved. So it could work if a candidate were committed to not trying to put it in schools. Somebody tried to start a bill in the legislature a couple of months ago and it never even made it to a committee. But, as albusteve says, we're all donked out, and they wouldn't even.

As a former Scout leader, one of the requirements is that the Scout "believe in God". Most of the other leaders had the (creationist == yes) attribute. NOBODY I worked with pushed that, at all. Several of us helped Scouts get their merit badges on their religion which wasn't our religion. Mine in particular.

On the other side of the issue, Scouting gets the all-out assault because of the belief requirement (among other things).

Why does a voter get forced to make the choice on a candidate like this?

Bad press, money, and a systemic corruption in the system is my take.

263

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:47:41pm

re: #251 Racer X

Wow.

A significant number of Republicans cannot fathom Millions of years?

Not when thinking of it in terms of evolutionary development of the human, as asked in the question

264

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:47:48pm

re: #258 pingjockey

That is kind of scary.

No worries - Democrats cannot fathom "Millions" of Dollars.

So its a wash.

265

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:48:14pm

re: #241 screaming_eagle

re: #242 Claire

I think for a lot of people creationism means there is a god-creator, and those people are not fully informed about the biblical literalist part of creationism.

266

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:48:17pm

What's sad about this poll is the low numbers for evolution across the political spectrum

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

It's mainly because the USA itself as a whole doesn't accept evolution. If science education were improved, we might see a turn around in those numbers, but as it stands, were just above Turkey:

[Link: www.andrewcullison.com...]

267

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:48:36pm

re: #264 Racer X

Mwahaha! Except that it hits our wallets!

268

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:48:48pm

re: #259 Zimriel

I expect Newton would have dismissed Darwin, at first. Newton was the sort of guy who liked to see things follow a mathematical model. Darwin (alone), while formidable in explaining how things got to where they are today, wasn't well anchored in physical processes. (Darwin had no clue about carbon dating, or genes, or the position of continents millions of years ago.) Look how Newton struggled with the idea of a gravitational force.

Modern genetics and biochemistry, though, would have been right up Newton's alley. If we had a Newton today in this post-DNA world, the Singularity would already be here -

Newton would have had a much easier time accepting the Darwin-Mendel synthesis, as Gregor Mendel provided the mathematical model for the passing down of dominant and recessive traits that Darwin lacked.

269

Claire Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:48:55pm

re: #260 sattv4u2

How old is the universe?

1. Not very.

2. Kinda old.

3. Really old.

4. Seriously fucking old.

The winner gets a complementary PHD.

270

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:49:02pm

I don't trust any GOP pols now....it is inconceivable to me that such a nobel cause as federalism and conservatism can go up in a puff of smoke in less than one generation...all these guys are pandering, there is just no way they are all creationists and we are just finding out about it know...I am very cynical at this point...we've been had...the GOP is buying votes and I find that most despicable

271

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:49:09pm

re: #129 Sharmuta

Second the motion. A Conflict of Visions is, to put it very mildly, excellent.

272

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:49:16pm

re: #213 Salamantis

But 60% of republicans ARE creationists, of the fundamentalist Biblical Literalist Young Earth variety:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

Wow. More dems (38%) think "God created as is" than I would ever have imagined. Hmmm.

273

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:50:11pm

re: #270 albusteve

I don't trust any GOP pols now....it is inconceivable to me that such a nobel cause as federalism and conservatism can go up in a puff of smoke in less than one generation...all these guys are pandering, there is just no way they are all creationists and we are just finding out about it know...I am very cynical at this point...we've been had...the GOP is buying votes and I find that most despicable

See ACORN.

Game. Set. Match.

274

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:50:12pm

A politician like Giuliani had demonstrated the ability to cut deeply into the Democrat base by offering practical solutions to serious, real world problems. And the GOP is arguing about whether schoolchildren should be taught that the earth is 10,000 years old, while Democrats are teaching schoolchildren in public school that they are the oppressed victims of the white race and of western civilization?

No wonder the two parties are cratering. Latest polling is that the Democrats are cratering, while the GOP isn't improving.

275

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:50:21pm

re: #269 Claire

How old is the universe?

1. Not very.

2. Kinda old.

3. Really old.

4. Seriously fucking old.

The winner gets a complementary PHD.

I'm not sure, but it was here when I was a waiter at The Last Supper!

(lousy tippers BTW ,, I mean ,, what the hell am I going to do with a handful of Myrrh?!?!?!)

276

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:50:22pm

re: #269 Claire
Number 4. I'll take my Piled Higher and Deeper in 20s and 50s please.

277

brookly red Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:50:44pm

re: #272 Sunlight

Wow. More dems (38%) think "God created as is" than I would ever have imagined. Hmmm.

/I have no faith in polls :)

278

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:50:46pm

re: #259 Zimriel

I expect Newton would have dismissed Darwin, at first. Newton was the sort of guy who liked to see things follow a mathematical model. Darwin (alone), while formidable in explaining how things got to where they are today, wasn't well anchored in physical processes. (Darwin had no clue about carbon dating, or genes, or the position of continents millions of years ago.) Look how Newton struggled with the idea of a gravitational force.

Modern genetics and biochemistry, though, would have been right up Newton's alley. If we had a Newton today in this post-DNA world, the Singularity would already be here -

Perhaps- I think since the first major transitional fossil was found shortly after Origin, that given some time, Newton would have found it compelling.

279

Vicious Babushka Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:51:38pm

re: #232 Sharmuta

Huh- I'll add that to my list of books to check out. Thanks.

While we're discussing Newton, however, I had a chance to speak to a historian on the subject of Newton and evolution, since so many like to toss him out on these threads as a creationist. The historian agreed that, had Newton had the opportunity to review Darwin's work, it was likely he'd have supported evolution as he was a dedicated man of science. Of course, we'll never know, but it's very disingenuous of creationists on these threads to try to claim Newton as one of their own.

Newton lived about a century before Darwin. It's like saying, did Beethoven like the Beatles.

280

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:51:39pm

re: #269 Claire

6. Ol' as shee-et.
7. Mos Oldess fo shure.
8. Bomb ass old
9. ......

281

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:51:50pm

re: #277 brookly red

/I have no faith in polls :)

What about Albanians ?

282

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:52:03pm

re: #271 Empire1

Second the motion. A Conflict of Visions is, to put it very mildly, excellent.

Thanks- I really think Lizards would enjoy it. Syrah and I convinced zombie to check it out, and now I'm going to work on the rest of yas. ;)

283

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:52:12pm

284

Jimash Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:52:23pm

re: #269 Claire

I'll take #4 for the PhD.
14b years ?
Really Humans are not that old.
It's the whole "evolved from apes" thing that these people cannot do.
It bothers them.
Someboday asked for the missing link. Look in the mirror.
One day...

285

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:52:24pm

re: #279 Alouette

Newton lived about a century before Darwin. It's like saying, did Beethoven like the Beatles.

I think he would! ;p

286

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:52:44pm

re: #265 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #242 Claire

I think for a lot of people creationism means there is a god-creator, and those people are not fully informed about the biblical literalist part of creationism.

I think that's likely. I always thought of myself as a creationist for that very reason; HOWEVER, I do not believe that the six days of the Bible were 24-hour days, nor do I believe that the early is only a few thousand years old. I believe in evolution in terms of adaptation and that this must be taught in biology classes.

I do not like anyone's proselytizing anything.

287

avanti Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:52:44pm

Big ass ice bridge breaks off.

Ice bridge

288

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:18pm

re: #280 BigPapa

9. Hella old?

289

doppelganglander Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:21pm

re: #283 buzzsawmonkey

I think you've sold me. I will rescue it from the yard sale pile.

290

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:22pm

re: #284 Jimash

I'll take #4 for the PhD.
14b years ?
Really Humans are not that old.
It's the whole "evolved from apes" thing that these people cannot do.
It bothers them.
Someboday asked for the missing link. Look in the mirror.
One day...

Forget which comic I saw that said this, but

"If we eveloved from Apes ,,, why are there still APES !?!?!"

291

quickjustice Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:35pm

re: #279 Alouette

Good point, although Beethoven's audience was in their twenties, and his performances by all accounts, were like rock concerts, with audiences members jumping up and down in ecstasy.

292

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:43pm

re: #287 avanti
ManBearPig did it!

293

Digital Display Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:49pm

re: #269 Claire

How old is the universe?

1. Not very.

2. Kinda old.

3. Really old.

4. Seriously fucking old.

The winner gets a complementary PHD.

13.7 Billion years old....

294

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:50pm

re: #274 quickjustice

A politician like Giuliani had demonstrated the ability to cut deeply into the Democrat base by offering practical solutions to serious, real world problems. And the GOP is arguing about whether schoolchildren should be taught that the earth is 10,000 years old, while Democrats are teaching schoolchildren in public school that they are the oppressed victims of the white race and of western civilization?

No wonder the two parties are cratering. Latest polling is that the Democrats are cratering, while the GOP isn't improving.

if a guy like Rudy is rejected on principle for his private 'affairs' then the GOP is doomed...if a genius like Romney is rejected by the GOP because he is a Morman we are doomed....conservatives suck

295

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:54pm

re: #279 Alouette

Newton lived about a century before Darwin. It's like saying, did Beethoven like the Beatles.

Not even that, as physics and biology are entirely disparate scientific disciplines. It would be more like asking if Da Vinci liked the Beatles.

296

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:53:58pm

Good night, Lizards.

297

abolitionist Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:54:19pm

re: #269 Claire

How old is the universe?

1. Not very.

2. Kinda old.

3. Really old.

4. Seriously fucking old.

The winner gets a complementary PHD.

Can I writein Older than dirt ?

298

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:54:22pm

re: #293 HoosierHoops

13.7 Billion years old....

exactly, or estimate?

299

jorline Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:54:22pm

The UNCouncil Speaks...3rd world tyrants watch and listen.

A pin drops on the world stage.

UN Cool

300

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:54:33pm

re: #296 goddessoftheclassroom
G'night!

301

Vicious Babushka Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:54:37pm

re: #291 quickjustice

Good point, although Beethoven's audience was in their twenties, and his performances by all accounts, were like rock concerts, with audiences members jumping up and down in ecstasy.

I think Lizst, or maybe Chopin, had more groupies than Beethoven.

302

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:55:03pm

re: #287 avanti

Wow. No pictures?

303

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:55:08pm

re: #295 Salamantis

Not even that, as physics and biology are entirely disparate scientific disciplines. It would be more like asking if Da Vinci liked the Beatles.

he would but not nearly as much as the Stones...right?

304

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:55:23pm

re: #302 BigPapa

Wow. No pictures?

the polar bear was off that day!

305

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:55:41pm

re: #286 goddessoftheclassroom

I think that's likely. I always thought of myself as a creationist for that very reason; HOWEVER, I do not believe that the six days of the Bible were 24-hour days, nor do I believe that the early is only a few thousand years old. I believe in evolution in terms of adaptation and that this must be taught in biology classes.

I do not like anyone's proselytizing anything.

And it's precisely feelings such as yours (an overall "creationism" because you accept God as a creator) that the Disco Institute manipulates. And manipulation always ticks me off, but particularly so when it's for an ulterior motive such as this.

306

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:55:46pm

re: #294 albusteve

if a guy like Rudy is rejected on principle for his private 'affairs' then the GOP is doomed...if a genius like Romney is rejected by the GOP because he is a Morman we are doomed....~~conservatives~~ republicans suck

FTFY. I don't think of folks being truly conservative if they hold those views.

307

The Shadow Do Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:56:00pm

re: #270 albusteve

I don't trust any GOP pols now....it is inconceivable to me that such a nobel cause as federalism and conservatism can go up in a puff of smoke in less than one generation...all these guys are pandering, there is just no way they are all creationists and we are just finding out about it know...I am very cynical at this point...we've been had...the GOP is buying votes and I find that most despicable

Steve, never trust any politician. Trust me on this one.

308

Jimash Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:56:05pm

re: #290 sattv4u2

"If we eveloved from Apes ,,, why are there still APES !?!?!"

They always ask that. They ask where are the apes NOW evolving into humans. These are non-sequitors.
Chimps do enjoy a good cigar and a ride on the bike though. Think about it.

309

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:56:10pm

re: #288 Slumbering Behemoth

I was trying to add to 'hella.' Does 'mos hella' work?

310

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:56:20pm

re: #287 avanti

Big ass ice bridge breaks off.

Ice bridge

This asshole caused it to collapse:

Vaughan, who landed on the flat-topped ice bridge on the Wilkins in January in a ski-equipped plane with other scientists and two Reuters reporters, said change in Antarctica was rarely so dramatic. It was the first -- and last -- visit to the area.

Damn AGW scientists! I wish they would just leave shit alone!

311

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:56:30pm

312

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:56:36pm

re: #290 sattv4u2

Forget which comic I saw that said this, but

"If we eveloved from Apes ,,, why are there still APES !?!?!"

That's like asking if Americans emigrated from other countries, why are those other countries still populated.

We didn't evolve from great apes; both great apes and humans evolutionarily diverged and evolved from common ancient hominid ancesors.

313

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:56:38pm

re: #306 Slumbering Behemoth

FTFY. I don't think of folks being truly conservative if they hold those views.

I was just going to change that...that's what I meant...thanks

314

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:57:33pm

re: #309 BigPapa

"Like, wicked hella".

315

Digital Display Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:57:33pm

re: #298 sattv4u2

exactly, or estimate?

13,736,427,023 years 56 days 3 hours 15 secs according to my atomic Timex.

316

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:57:41pm

re: #312 Salamantis

That's like asking if Americans emigrated from other countries, why are those other countries still populated.

We didn't evolve from great apes; both great apes and humans evolutionarily diverged and evolved from common ancient hominid ancesors.

Lighten up, Francis,,,,,, I prefaced it by stating I was at a COMEDY club and heard a COMEDIAN state it

317

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:57:47pm

re: #306 Slumbering Behemoth

FTFY. I don't think of folks being truly conservative if they hold those views.

Upding, because I agree. They are of a different vision than conservatives, and it's this conflict of visions that is tearing the GOP apart. Frankly- they don't belong.

318

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:57:52pm

re: #287 avanti

Big ass ice bridge breaks off.

Ice bridge

Interesting, any signs of fresh undersea vulcanism in the area, or did they look?

319

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:57:57pm

re: #287 avanti

Big ass ice bridge breaks off.

Ice bridge

And dude, why are you so giddy about AGW?

320

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:58:01pm

re: #315 HoosierHoops

13,736,427,023 years 56 days 3 hours 15 secs according to my atomic Timex.

And if it's wrong you get an atomic wedgie

321

Empire1 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:58:11pm

Time for me to head out. Take care, all, and stay scaly!

See you tomorrow.

322

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:58:17pm

re: #244 stuiec

Example: I'm a Jew, and yet I can't understand Jews who fear support from Evangelicals for Israel based on the idea that "they're only supporting Israel to hasten the end days, when they all go to Heaven and we're all supposed to go to Hell!" My feeling is, if you're truly afraid of the end times and getting cast into the Pit, you're really an Evangelical and not a Jew; in the here and now, if Evangelicals want to give Israel material and spiritual and political support against a host of enemies, we can use the help.

Fundamentalists are pro-Israel because they feel more kinship with (conservative) Jews than with Catholics, Orthodox, and mainline liberal Protestants. They are two people who fled persecution to eke out a new life in a harsh environment, surrounded by enemies, and despised by the Good People of the world. They have the same base of the Bible, and the same text of that (Masoretic). They hold it as a central text in their daily lives.

As far as the End Times are concerned, there's an element of that, but the Christians could just have easily chosen an interpretation which opposed Israel (as Eastern Christians and Sunni Muslims* do).

[*Sunni Muslim apocalyptic was always close to Revelation; they got a lot of that filtered to them in Syria during the first centuries. And more recently, Harun Yahya and others use Revelation "straight from the bottle", barely Islamising even the surface of it.]

323

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:58:24pm

re: #307 The Shadow Do

"hi, I'm from the govt"....I hear you

324

lincolntf Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:58:27pm

OT-
You never want the headline about your (second, super secret, super exclusive ,blah, blah, blah) wedding to lead with.. "No One Injured". But that's what Tom and Gisele got.

Not big fans of the photogs, it seems

325

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:58:42pm

re: #269 Claire

How old is the universe?

1. Not very.

2. Kinda old.

3. Really old.

4. Seriously fucking old.

The winner gets a complementary PHD.

The correct answer is 13.73 (± 0.12) billion years old:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

326

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:59:09pm

re: #297 abolitionist

Can I writein Older than dirt ?

Would that imply the earth isn't made of dirt?

327

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:59:33pm

re: #313 albusteve

I figured as much, which is why I updinged the comment anyway.

328

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 4:59:49pm

329

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:00:09pm

re: #326 screaming_eagle

Would that imply the earth isn't made of dirt?

we carpeted in the bedrooms and put in hardwoods in the dining room and halls

330

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:00:17pm

re: #293 HoosierHoops

13.7 Billion years old....

Ive read that is a low number, newer methods have said
15 billion or more.
The numbers are under debate.
Now how are you today Hoops?

331

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:00:23pm

re: #285 Sharmuta

[Did Beethoven like the Beatles?] I think he would! ;p

I see Beethoven as more of a Moody Blues, Doors, and Depeche Mode kinda guy...

332

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:00:48pm

re: #327 Slumbering Behemoth

I figured as much, which is why I updinged the comment anyway.

thanks for watching my 6

333

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:02:04pm

re: #331 Zimriel

I see Beethoven as more of a Moody Blues, Doors, and Depeche Mode kinda guy...

from what I've read ,,,, thats prolly accurate!

334

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:02:30pm

Since none of you smart fellers could figure it out, I used a search engine and found pictures on the inter tubes (meaning, I was too lazy to search myself and none of you did it for me). Love the innertubes!

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

335

Digital Display Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:02:34pm

re: #330 DEZes

Ive read that is a low number, newer methods have said
15 billion or more.
The numbers are under debate.
Now how are you today Hoops?

I'm doing wonderful tonight..Just chilling...
Hope today finds you well

336

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:03:02pm

re: #326 screaming_eagle

Would that imply the earth isn't made of dirt?

No, it would imply that the universe began long before the earth formed. And indeed the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, while the earth was formed a mere 4.6 billion years ago - 9 billion years later.

337

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:03:07pm

Later folks. I'm quite surprised we haven't had a Class 1 meltdown yet.
No phantom down dingers either. Curioser and curioser.

338

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:03:07pm

Mozart would have approved the Beatles!

Wagner would have been a Rammstein fan...

Tchaikovsky, the Smiths, no question.

(This is fun!)

339

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:03:11pm

re: #331 Zimriel

I see Beethoven as more of a Moody Blues, Doors, and Depeche Mode kinda guy...

would Lud have taken LSD?

340

Ozymandias Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:03:37pm

ok i have a question. i don't like the creationism vs. evolution debate. it doesn't seem to lead anywhere. is it possible that we can just agree that, at some point in time, mankind, as we know it, appeared, as an evolutionary mutation as a result of the actions of God? or does that draw the ire of both sides?

341

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:03:46pm

re: #334 BigPapa

Since none of you smart fellers could figure it out, I used a search engine and found pictures on the inter tubes (meaning, I was too lazy to search myself and none of you did it for me). Love the innertubes!

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

Psssshh!

Photoshop!

342

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:04:24pm

OT Israellycool has photos of protesters. Sucks to be them. How miserable.

343

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:04:34pm

Here's the BBC story and video of the Ice Bridge

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The fact that there's an Island there and it's on the western side make me ask the volcano question, since some past "ice shelf retreats" have been affected by vulcanism, Western Antarctica is volcanically active, and if it's an Island, then it's likely of volcanic origin. I'll be following this one.

344

Last Mohican Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:05:22pm

re: #128 Charles

I will be very surprised if either Giuliani or Romney are ever presidential nominees for the GOP. They simply don't toe the line on too many fundamentalist issues.

When I was growing up, children were trained to become politically aware in a sort of issues-and-logic based method. Newspapers, magazines, and the like would present various candidates' views on individual issues, and you would read their arguments, and then pick the one who you thought was right.

Now, I think both major parties have realized that appealing to voters' rational thought is unacceptably unreliable and cost-ineffective. The game now is to attempt to radicalize a prospective voter, to convince him not only that your candidate is better, but that the entire opposing party is 100% made up of criminally insane psychopaths who basically seek to destroy your country and kill your children while they sleep. The more radical the voter's views, the better. It solidifies brand loyalty, and stimulates bigger campaign contributions.

A result of all this is that moderate candidates who try to appeal to people's rational, intelligent side are no longer successful in major American politics.

345

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:05:29pm

re: #335 HoosierHoops

I'm having a good lazy Sunday. ;)

346

abolitionist Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:05:55pm

re: #326 screaming_eagle

Would that imply the earth isn't made of dirt?

Not at all. Earth is made mostly of dirt - mostly of elements heavier than hydrogen and helium. The heavier elements were made in stars that went splody - supernovas.

347

zombie Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:06:02pm

re: #213 Salamantis

But 60% of republicans ARE creationists, of the fundamentalist Biblical Literalist Young Earth variety:

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

re: #266 Sharmuta

What's sad about this poll is the low numbers for evolution across the political spectrum

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

It's mainly because the USA itself as a whole doesn't accept evolution. If science education were improved, we might see a turn around in those numbers, but as it stands, were just above Turkey:

[Link: www.andrewcullison.com...]

Those polls are the most depressing thing I've seen since last November.

348

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:06:03pm

Just pooping back in for a moment to comment on the importance of punctuation. Consider the hyphen. This is the headline on the Fox website:

Obama: Nuke Free World

As written, it states that our president is suggesting that we (or someone) nuke (the verb) the free world (the direct object). That is the direct opposite of his position. It should have read:

Obama: Nuke-Free World

With the addition of the little hyphen, we now have a compound adjective modifying a noun.

I feel better now,

349

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:06:33pm

re: #340 Ozymandias

ok i have a question. i don't like the creationism vs. evolution debate. it doesn't seem to lead anywhere. is it possible that we can just agree that, at some point in time, mankind, as we know it, appeared, as an evolutionary mutation as a result of the actions of God? or does that draw the ire of both sides?

Biblical Literalist creationists possess a visceral animus for such a view, as, for them, humans, as well as all other species, were created independently and as is, and have not evolved.

350

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:06:34pm

Ludwig von Hendrix...hmmmm

351

Last Mohican Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:06:41pm

re: #328 buzzsawmonkey

Proof positive that we are near the End Times: the New York Times' stock keeps sinking.

Well, the end of the Times, anyway.

//////////

In other words, the Times' End.

I sure hope so.

352

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:07:03pm

re: #336 Salamantis

No, it would imply that the universe began long before the earth formed. And indeed the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, while the earth was formed a mere 4.6 billion years ago - 9 billion years later.

I stand corrected. My fault for switching earth/universe in Claire's poll.

353

The Shadow Do Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:07:06pm

Rachmaninoff and Pink Floyd?

354

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:07:24pm

re: #351 Last Mohican

"The Times they a endin".

355

Digital Display Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:07:33pm

re: #348 goddessoftheclassroom

Just pooping back in for a moment to comment on the importance of punctuation. Consider the hyphen. This is the headline on the Fox website:

With the addition of the little hyphen, we now have a compound adjective modifying a noun.

I feel better now,

*Looks around*
Is Goddess gone yet? Is it safe to post again?
/

356

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:07:37pm

re: #340 Ozymandias

ok i have a question. i don't like the creationism vs. evolution debate. it doesn't seem to lead anywhere. is it possible that we can just agree that, at some point in time, mankind, as we know it, appeared, as an evolutionary mutation as a result of the actions of God? or does that draw the ire of both sides?

who knows...it's not important we all agree

357

Bloodnok Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:07:52pm

OT- I am thoroughly enjoying the Balsamic Chicken recipe from the LGF cookbook. It is being served with sauteed asparagus and a glass of Chardonnay. YUM.

358

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:08:03pm

re: #334 BigPapa

Since none of you smart fellers could figure it out, I used a search engine and found pictures on the inter tubes (meaning, I was too lazy to search myself and none of you did it for me). Love the innertubes!

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

HOLD THE WEDDING!
From your link
succumbing to recent rises in temperature in the area--an average of 0.9 degree Fahrenheit every 10 years for the last 50 years.

I ain't buying it. At temps of MINUS 80 degrees, they're telling me that a change of 4.5 degrees TOTAL over 50 years did this?

359

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:08:14pm

re: #355 HoosierHoops
Psst...she misspelled popping!

360

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:08:19pm

re: #340 Ozymandias

That's not the point. Assuming the answer is yet, do you want to teach that in public school?
The debate does go somewhere, every time. It's too bad it's keeps having to go there, but it's for the best.

361

The Shadow Do Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:08:24pm

re: #348 goddessoftheclassroom

Just pooping back in for a moment

Oh my.

362

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:08:26pm

re: #336 Salamantis

No, it would imply that the universe began long before the earth formed. And indeed the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, while the earth was formed a mere 4.6 billion years ago - 9 billion years later.

Good man, have an upding.

363

zombie Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:08:28pm

re: #348 goddessoftheclassroom

Just pooping back in for a moment

Too much information!

364

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:08:54pm

re: #354 pingjockey

"The Times they a endin".

hahaha! 'Bombed on Blonde'

365

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:09:08pm

366

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:09:25pm

re: #343 Thanos

Here's the BBC story and video of the Ice Bridge

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

The fact that there's an Island there and it's on the western side make me ask the volcano question, since some past "ice shelf retreats" have been affected by vulcanism, Western Antarctica is volcanically active, and if it's an Island, then it's likely of volcanic origin. I'll be following this one.

What season is it right now at the South Pole?

Summer is just ending.

367

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:09:34pm

re: #359 pingjockey

Psst...she misspelled popping!

MISTYPED. not misspelled!

/how embarrassing...

368

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:09:35pm

re: #348 goddessoftheclassroom

I have a clothes pin. ;)

369

jcm Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:09:45pm

re: #348 goddessoftheclassroom

Just pooping back in for a moment to comment on the importance of punctuation. Consider the hyphen. This is the headline on the Fox website:

With the addition of the little hyphen, we now have a compound adjective modifying a noun.

I feel better now,

Or more directly; Nuke the Moon!

370

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:09:55pm

re: #344 Last Mohican

I hope you're wrong. That's a good theory though.

371

Last Mohican Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:09:55pm

re: #354 pingjockey

"The Times they a endin".

I feel like I'm not doing enough to try to put the New York Times out of business. I mean, I don't subscribe to the paper, and I'd never buy a copy. But I do read their articles online sometimes, so I guess I must be bringing them ad revenue. Is there some way to read their articles without giving them revenue? I learned from Charles that, if you get to a NYT article via tinyurl, they don't earn google points, which is a start. But I'd feel more socially responsible if I didn't give them ad revenue either.

372

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:10:00pm

re: #367 goddessoftheclassroom
Hehehe!

373

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:10:36pm

re: #372 pingjockey

Hehehe!

Oh, for a self-delete option...

374

jcm Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:10:52pm

re: #348 goddessoftheclassroom

Just pooping back in for a moment to comment on the importance of punctuation. Consider the hyphen. This is the headline on the Fox website:

With the addition of the little hyphen, we now have a compound adjective modifying a noun.

I feel better now,

Quick! Email all the kids in goddesses classes!

375

SixDegrees Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:11:20pm

Any word on how this district normally votes? This is a pretty lopsided result by any standards. I'm wondering if that is always the case, and if Democrats are always favored there, or if there's been some sort of a sea change from past results.

376

Digital Display Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:11:24pm

re: #373 goddessoftheclassroom

Oh, for a self-delete option...

LOL
Have a great evening Goddess

377

aviator Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:11:33pm

re: #348 goddessoftheclassroom

Just pooping back in for a moment to comment on the importance of punctuation. Consider the hyphen. This is the headline on the Fox website:

With the addition of the little hyphen, we now have a compound adjective modifying a noun.

I feel better now,

With the addition of a little O and the deletion of a simple p we now have a completely different post.

378

jwb7605 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:11:37pm

re: #336 Salamantis

No, it would imply that the universe began long before the earth formed. And indeed the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, while the earth was formed a mere 4.6 billion years ago - 9 billion years later.

On the bright side, it's important to note that by that math, Obama has only spent roughly 3 dollars per day since the earth was formed.

379

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:11:46pm

re: #374 jcm

Quick! Email all the kids in goddesses classes!

This is the number one reason why I choose to remain anonymous! :)

380

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:12:24pm

re: #378 jwb7605

On the bright side, it's important to note that by that math, Obama has only spent roughly 3 dollars per day since the earth was formed.

yeah ,, but he's just warming up!

381

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:12:29pm

re: #371 Last Mohican
I got a phone call last year from the Slimes. I live 2 1/2 hours EAST of Seattle and this fool was asking me about subscribing! After I got done laughing I told him in no way would I subscribe to his wholly owned subsidiary of the Demonrat party.

382

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:12:29pm

re: #347 zombie

Those polls are the most depressing thing I've seen since last November.

I got those polls from Killgore originally, and they are depressing. But then there was the poll Charles posted not too long ago that showed most Americans couldn't answer basic science questions. We do a very poor job of teaching science in general, although the silver lining was that most Americans feel science education is important. It was that silver lining I feel the GOP really needs to grasp.

383

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:12:31pm

re: #374 jcm

Quick! Email all the kids in goddess' es classes!

Back to class for you!

384

albusteve Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:12:41pm

re: #375 SixDegrees

Any word on how this district normally votes? This is a pretty lopsided result by any standards. I'm wondering if that is always the case, and if Democrats are always favored there, or if there's been some sort of a sea change from past results.

both Republicans....

385

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:12:48pm

re: #377 aviator

With the addition of a little O and the deletion of a simple p we now have a completely different post.

I'm just grateful that pre-Boomer Marine brat isn't here...

386

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:12:49pm

re: #357 Bloodnok

OT- I am thoroughly enjoying the Balsamic Chicken recipe from the LGF cookbook. It is being served with sauteed asparagus and a glass of Chardonnay. YUM.

That's my recipe!

387

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:13:06pm

re: #376 HoosierHoops

LOL
Have a great evening Goddess

I thought we should get Steyn to email her a correction.

388

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:13:14pm

re: #373 goddessoftheclassroom
We are just having a little light hearted Sunday fun with you.

389

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:13:22pm

re: #379 goddessoftheclassroom

This is the number one reason why I choose to remain anonymous! :)

No one is perfect, so just remember I for one never pick on someone I don't like. :)

390

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:13:36pm

re: #378 jwb7605

On the bright side, it's important to note that by that math, Obama has only spent roughly 3 dollars per day since the earth was formed.

Obama is past billions. He is spending trillions. Proof he is bigger than life.

391

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:14:19pm

re: #388 pingjockey

We are just having a little light hearted Sunday fun with you.

Oh, I know--and how could ANYONE resist? It's too funny.

392

Bloodnok Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:14:39pm

re: #386 Sharmuta

That's my recipe!

Yes it is! It came out perfectly (I made one small error on the reduction time, but there was plenty to coat the chicken).

393

jcm Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:14:46pm

re: #379 goddessoftheclassroom

This is the number one reason why I choose to remain anonymous! :)

LOL! Would we blackmail you?
Perish the thought!
We'd never do that!

*wink, wink*

394

Last Mohican Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:15:09pm

re: #378 jwb7605

On the bright side, it's important to note that by that math, Obama has only spent roughly 3 dollars per day since the earth was formed.

That could be a new Democratic Party TV commercial. "For a mere three dollars a day, the cost of a couple of cups of coffee, we can save the whole economy."

395

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:15:26pm

I think the Earth is mostly molten nickel at it's core, much more than dirt and rocks. Maybe we could mine the nickels and pay off the debt? Hey... wait a minute....

396

goddessoftheclassroom Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:15:34pm

re: #389 DEZes

No one is perfect, so just remember I for one never pick on someone I don't like. :)

397

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:15:53pm

re: #390 screaming_eagle
Someone posted an idea yesterday about 40 million over 50 in the work force and to get the economy going give 'em all a milion bucks to retire now. That might end up being cheaper in the long run!

398

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:15:55pm

399

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:07pm

re: #392 Bloodnok

Yes it is! It came out perfectly (I made one small error on the reduction time, but there was plenty to coat the chicken).

I'm glad it's being enjoyed. What I love about it is there's wine in the sauce, but you get to enjoy the rest of the bottle with dinner.

400

Last Mohican Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:08pm

re: #395 BigPapa

I think the Earth is mostly molten nickel at it's core, much more than dirt and rocks. Maybe we could mine the nickels and pay off the debt? Hey... wait a minute....

Unfortunately, it's actually mostly molten penny.

401

Claire Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:33pm

re: #350 albusteve

Wolfgang van Halen

(real guy)

402

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:41pm

re: #391 goddessoftheclassroom
Especially how it is one of our favorite teachers making a little error.

403

opinionated Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:51pm

Interrupting this evolution thread with news about today's Neanderthals.

UN council fails to condemn North Korea

404

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:53pm

re: #395 BigPapa

I think the Earth is mostly molten nickel at it's core, much more than dirt and rocks. Maybe we could mine the nickels and pay off the debt? Hey... wait a minute....

You think the enviromentalists will let us dig a mine that deep?

405

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:53pm

re: #400 Last Mohican

Unfortunately, it's actually mostly molten penny.

Molten iron.

406

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:16:57pm

re: #340 Ozymandias

ok i have a question. i don't like the creationism vs. evolution debate. it doesn't seem to lead anywhere. is it possible that we can just agree that, at some point in time, mankind, as we know it, appeared, as an evolutionary mutation as a result of the actions of God? or does that draw the ire of both sides?

It may not seem to be leading anywhere, but it needs to be leading somewhere, and the somewhere it needs to be leading, is a firm committment to teaching science in science classes, and teaching religion at home, in church, or perhaps, discussions about religion and philosophies in some sort of class in which world views and philosophies are studied.

The point in these discussions isn't does person A agree with person B.

The point of these discussions is where the teaching of religious beliefs should take place. And it isn't in a science class.

If you have not done so, please look at the wiki entries for "creationism", "intelligent ID", and "wedge document". Somewhere in those articles you will find a link to the actual Wedge Document. Click the link and read, particularly the short-term and long-term goals.

407

Bloodnok Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:17:25pm

re: #399 Sharmuta

I'm glad it's being enjoyed. What I love about it is there's wine in the sauce, but you get to enjoy the rest of the bottle with dinner.

Yes. I have been drinking red lately and I forgot how good a white wine is with dinner.

408

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:17:35pm

re: #403 opinionated

Interrupting this evolution thread with news about today's Neanderthals.

UN council fails to condemn North Korea

SHOCKA ,,,, (not!)

409

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:17:41pm

DON'T FORGET TO SUBMIT RECIPES FOR VOLUME 2 OF THE COOKBOOK!

CLICK REINE'S NIC FOR MORE INFORMATION!

410

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:18:12pm

re: #403 opinionated

UN - FAIL at pretty much everything of any consequence. That would be:

UN = HELLA FAIL

411

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:18:16pm

re: #409 Sharmuta
Owwww! Quit shouting.

412

Jimash Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:18:17pm

re: #395 BigPapa

I think the Earth is mostly molten nickel at it's core, much more than dirt and rocks. Maybe we could mine the nickels and pay off the debt? Hey... wait a minute....

Iron. Nickel comes mostly from the sky. (in meteo®ites and aSteroids)

413

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:18:45pm

re: #411 pingjockey

Owwww! Quit shouting.

NO! ;)

414

Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:18:45pm

re: #406 reine.de.tout

It may not seem to be leading anywhere, but it needs to be leading somewhere, and the somewhere it needs to be leading, is a firm committment to teaching science in science classes, and teaching religion at home, in church, or perhaps, discussions about religion and philosophies in some sort of class in which world views and philosophies are studied.

The point in these discussions isn't does person A agree with person B.

The point of these discussions is where the teaching of religious beliefs should take place. And it isn't in a science class.

If you have not done so, please look at the wiki entries for "creationism", "intelligent ID", and "wedge document". Somewhere in those articles you will find a link to the actual Wedge Document. Click the link and read, particularly the short-term and long-term goals.

Here's the link:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's a real eye-opener about the true goals of the "intelligent design" movement.

415

brookly red Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:18:52pm

re: #395 BigPapa

I think the Earth is mostly molten nickel at it's core, much more than dirt and rocks. Maybe we could mine the nickels and pay off the debt? Hey... wait a minute....

Hush, if Congress thinks they can find one more nickel they might just try.

416

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:19:10pm

re: #413 Sharmuta
FINE!

417

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:19:25pm

HERE I AM WITH MY NIC.

CLICK IT.

But if you do, send a recipe immediately.
If you plan to send one later, don't save the e-mail addy's, because my e-mail address will change next week when I change internet providers.

418

MandyManners Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:19:34pm

re: #403 opinionated

Interrupting this evolution thread with news about today's Neanderthals.

UN council fails to condemn North Korea

ROFLMAO!

(Why the heck am I laughing?)

419

Opinionated Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:19:38pm

re: #408 sattv4u2

SHOCKA ,,,, (not!)

I'm shocked it was even brought up.

Everyone knows it's in the UN Charter that condemnations are reserved only for Israel.

420

zombie Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:19:42pm

re: #395 BigPapa

I think the Earth is mostly molten nickel at it's core, much more than dirt and rocks. Maybe we could mine the nickels and pay off the debt? Hey... wait a minute....

Actually, it's molten iron.
re: #336 Salamantis

No, it would imply that the universe began long before the earth formed. And indeed the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, while the earth was formed a mere 4.6 billion years ago - 9 billion years later.

So, are you implying that 99.99% of the Universe's history happened before mankind appeared on the scene? So it ain't so! Why, it says right here "God created heavens and earth" and then it jumps straight to the Adam and Eve part with not much in between. Do you mean to say someone ripped out 100,000,000,000 pages from Genesis?

421

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:19:55pm

re: #409 Sharmuta

I might contribute. I make a mean traditional paella and a rosemary crusted BBQ leg of lamb. And for the main course...

422

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:20:15pm

You can make a rockin' chip dip merely by combining a quart of sour cream, a packet of crumbled blue cheese, and the solids strained from a large bottle of Chunky Hot Pace Picante sauce.

423

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:20:23pm

re: #418 MandyManners
Because it is the UN and they're only fit for being mocked!

424

avanti Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:20:24pm

re: #358 sattv4u2

HOLD THE WEDDING!
From your link
succumbing to recent rises in temperature in the area--an average of 0.9 degree Fahrenheit every 10 years for the last 50 years.

I ain't buying it. At temps of MINUS 80 degrees, they're telling me that a change of 4.5 degrees TOTAL over 50 years did this?

It's not minus 80 everywhere in Antarctica all the time, it's in the 30's this week in some area's, the record high is 59 degrees.

425

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:20:29pm

re: #406 reine.de.tout

The Wedge Document

Every bit as much as this is about science, this is about the Constitution and the rights of parents to teach their children the faith of their choice without government interference, which is what creationism in public school science classes would be.

426

jcm Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:20:37pm

April 6, 2009
North Korea rocket puts Barack Obama on nuclear alert

President Obama faced his first big test on security yesterday after North Korea launched a missile designed to carry a warhead as far as Alaska.

FAIL!

An emergency session of the United Nations Security Council ended in deadlock, with Russia and China balking at Western efforts to extend sanctions on North Korea by banning it from importing new categories of luxury goods.

No more tree bark soup of those evil NorKos! UN as usual fucking impotent and pathetic beyond words.

427

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:20:40pm

re: #395 BigPapa

I think the Earth is mostly molten nickel at it's core, much more than dirt and rocks. Maybe we could mine the nickels and pay off the debt? Hey... wait a minute....

The core is mostly molten iron, which is a good thing.;)

428

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:21:09pm

re: #421 BigPapa

I might contribute. I make a mean traditional paella and a rosemary crusted BBQ leg of lamb. And for the main course...

Good grief!
send 'em in, fer cryin' out loud.

429

Killian Bundy Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:21:23pm

re: #403 opinionated

UN council fails to condemn North Korea

/they're going to make TOTUS cry

430

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:21:50pm

re: #421 BigPapa

I might contribute. I make a mean traditional paella and a rosemary crusted BBQ leg of lamb. And for the main course...

MMMMMM!

431

Last Mohican Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:21:59pm

re: #420 zombie

So, are you implying that 99.99% of the Universe's history happened before mankind appeared on the scene? So it ain't so! Why, it says right here "God created heavens and earth" and then it jumps straight to the Adam and Eve part with not much in between. Do you mean to say someone ripped out 100,000,000,000 pages from Genesis?

Frankly, those 100,000,000,000 were unbearably boring. God had an excellent editor.

432

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:22:04pm

re: #425 Sharmuta

The Wedge Document

Every bit as much as this is about science, this is about the Constitution and the rights of parents to teach their children the faith of their choice without government interference, which is what creationism in public school science classes would be.

Yes, indeed, I am seconding that.
That other post took me so long to type, I wanted to get it posted.

But this is also a critical point, imo.

433

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:22:06pm

re: #424 avanti

It's not minus 80 everywhere in Antarctica all the time, it's in the 30's this week in some area's, the record high is 59 degrees.

The point STILL is, the temp "changed" 4.5 degrees TOTAL over a course of 50 years. Whether that was 4.5 from minus 80 (making it minus 75.5) or from the 30 (which means it WOULD have been 25.5 if not "the change") it's still BULLSHIT by those numbers

434

Randall Gross Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:22:17pm

re: #414 Charles

Here's the link:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

It's a real eye-opener about the true goals of the "intelligent design" movement.

I think this is leading somewhere, and I think that Charles has scored some major victories. They are not as visible as a vote, but the fact that Ahmanson switched to Dem takes a huge amount of wind out of Discovery Institute's sails.

435

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:22:46pm

Knights Templar hid the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican

Medieval knights hid and secretly venerated The Holy Shroud of Turin for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said today in an announcement that appeared to solve the mystery of the relic’s missing years.

The Knights Templar, an order which was suppressed and disbanded for alleged heresy, took care of the linen cloth, which bears the image of a man with a beard, long hair and the wounds of crucifixion, according to Vatican researchers.

The Shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral, has long been revered as the shroud in which Jesus was buried, although the image only appeared clearly in 1898 when a photographer developed a negative.

Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, said the Shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and did not surface again until the middle of the fourteenth century. Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Dr Frale said its fate in those years had always puzzled historians.

436

brookly red Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:22:51pm

re: #422 Salamantis

Pace makes everything better :)

437

pingjockey Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:23:13pm

Later folks, the dinner gong has just rang.

438

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:23:17pm

re: #409 Sharmuta

But... but I don't have any recipes. *wimper* Stop yelling at me.

:runs away crying:
/

439

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:23:24pm

re: #432 reine.de.tout

Yes, indeed, I am seconding that.
That other post took me so long to type, I wanted to get it posted.

But this is also a critical point, imo.

We can disagree on articles of faith, but the one thing conservatives should have in common is protecting Constitutional rights.

440

Bloodnok Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:24:11pm

re: #435 Racer X

Knights Templar hid the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican

Medieval knights hid and secretly venerated The Holy Shroud of Turin for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said today in an announcement that appeared to solve the mystery of the relic’s missing years.

The Knights Templar, an order which was suppressed and disbanded for alleged heresy, took care of the linen cloth, which bears the image of a man with a beard, long hair and the wounds of crucifixion, according to Vatican researchers.

The Shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral, has long been revered as the shroud in which Jesus was buried, although the image only appeared clearly in 1898 when a photographer developed a negative.

Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, said the Shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and did not surface again until the middle of the fourteenth century. Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Dr Frale said its fate in those years had always puzzled historians.

Yes, yes. But WHO painted it?

/Hillary

441

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:24:15pm

re: #438 Slumbering Behemoth

You can also submit funny comments for the ROTFLOL section.

442

SixDegrees Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:24:37pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

Funny, but I remember hearing in science classes a lot of disproven scientific theories....I.e. that the earth was the center of the Universe vice Galileo's findings.....or that the heart was the center of reason, instead of the head.

In fact, one of the best ways to teach science is by disproving other theories.....creationism is a theory....that is all....it is teachable even if one does not believe in it.

Creationism, however, is not a scientific theory; to qualify, it must be inherently falsifiable. Theories involving supernatural beings who exist outside of the constraints of observable physical laws, possessing powers to circumvent and change such laws at will, at intrinsically unfalsifiable. They are, quite simply, completely outside the realm of scientific inquiry.

If it's going to be taught, it has no place in a science class, except as an example of sloppy thinking and of what to avoid when developing scientific theories. In a comparative religions class, fine - in fact, I'd encourage holding creationism up against other religions for comparative purposes, exposing the lies and frauds by which it is promoted, the insidious attempt to inculcate it's beliefs into the very young, and how such beliefs and tactics hold up against the fundie's own professed ethical mandates.

That sort of course would never be allowed in a public school. In fact, creationists, confronted with the offer of such a place in the curriculum, will immediately start frothing at the mouth and condemning anyone suggesting such a thing to an eternity of hellfire. One has to wonder why they prefer to cloak their religion in the garb of what they see as absolutist, rational science when it is neither, yet recoil at the idea that it be treated as what it is - simply another religious doctrine, albeit a particularly repulsive, hypocritical one.

443

jwb7605 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:24:38pm

re: #403 opinionated

Interrupting this evolution thread with news about today's Neanderthals.

UN council fails to condemn North Korea

Falls right in line with Ward Churchill being innocent. He'll probably get his job back.

444

doppelganglander Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:24:41pm

re: #435 Racer X

Knights Templar hid the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican

Medieval knights hid and secretly venerated The Holy Shroud of Turin for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said today in an announcement that appeared to solve the mystery of the relic’s missing years.

The Knights Templar, an order which was suppressed and disbanded for alleged heresy, took care of the linen cloth, which bears the image of a man with a beard, long hair and the wounds of crucifixion, according to Vatican researchers.

The Shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral, has long been revered as the shroud in which Jesus was buried, although the image only appeared clearly in 1898 when a photographer developed a negative.

Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, said the Shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and did not surface again until the middle of the fourteenth century. Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Dr Frale said its fate in those years had always puzzled historians.

I'm sure the History Channel will be right on this.

445

DEZes Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:24:49pm

re: #418 MandyManners

ROFLMAO!

(Why the heck am I laughing?)

Its a self preservation reflex.

446

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:25:05pm

re: #440 Bloodnok

Ummm- the Shroud is not genuine.

447

Bloodnok Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:25:25pm

re: #441 Sharmuta

You can also submit funny comments for the ROTFLOL section.

Golly Wog's amended LGF prayer has to be in there!

448

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:25:39pm

re: #447 Bloodnok

Golly Wog's amended LGF prayer has to be in there!

yep.

449

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:25:53pm

re: #447 Bloodnok

Already sent it to Reine.

450

Kronocide Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:26:09pm

re: #420 zombie

Actually, it's molten iron.

It's a combination, but it's probably majority iron. That means I'm minority correct.

Based on the abundance of chemical elements in the solar system, their physical properties, and other chemical constraints regarding the remainder of Earth's volume, the inner core is believed to be composed primarily of a nickel-iron alloy, with very small amounts of some other elements.[6] Because it is less dense than pure iron, Francis Birch judged that the outer core contains about 10% of a mixture of lighter elements, although these are expected to be less abundant in the solid inner core.[

451

Jimash Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:26:18pm

I would gladly trade the authenticity of the Shroud for the dropping of Id and Creationism. Gladly.

452

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:26:27pm

re: #410 BigPapa

Hella hella hella.

453

SixDegrees Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:27:02pm

re: #384 albusteve

both Republicans....

Ah, thanks. Oh well; no bellweathers on this one, then.

454

fizzlogic Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:27:51pm

re: #223 Charles

And unfortunately, as the poll linked by Salamantis shows, this is because a majority of Republican voters are also creationists.

The unmentionable: the path these people had to take over the GOP has been abortion. I'd wager most Republicans who are not creationists don't want abortion illegal. Yet they can't advocate that position due to the onslaught of talking heads on the Right who tell us conservatives are "pro-life". The only way to root these people out of the Party is to vote for the Democrat in state and local elections.

455

Ozymandias Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:28:24pm

re: #406 reine.de.tout

ok i got it now. don't teach religion in schools. gotcha. sorry, i'm kind of slow.

i guess i was just thinking about the debate in general on how to reconcile G-d's actions with evolution. thank you all kindly.

456

Bloodnok Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:28:32pm

re: #446 Sharmuta

Ummm- the Shroud is not genuine.

I know. Neither is Our Lady of Guadaloupe, but it didn't stop our esteemed SOS from askin'. :)

457

avanti Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:28:49pm

re: #433 sattv4u2

The point STILL is, the temp "changed" 4.5 degrees TOTAL over a course of 50 years. Whether that was 4.5 from minus 80 (making it minus 75.5) or from the 30 (which means it WOULD have been 25.5 if not "the change") it's still BULLSHIT by those numbers

OK, maybe your idea that the ice bridge melted for some reason unrelated to the temperature rise is valid, but it would not hurt to find the reason.
BTW, there is some good news relating to the increased CO2 levels, trees love it.

trees.

458

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:28:57pm

re: #446 Sharmuta

Ummm- the Shroud is not genuine.

The Vatican refuses to say.

Radiocarbon dating tests on the Turin Shroud in 1988 indicated that it was a medieval fake. However this had been challenged on the grounds that the dated sample was taken from an area of the shroud mended after a fire in the Middle Ages and not a part of the original cloth.

The Vatican has not declared whether it is genuine or a forgery, leaving it to believers to decide. The late John Paul II said it was “an icon of the suffering of the innocent in every age.” The self proclaimed heirs of the Knights Templar have asked the Vatican to “restore the reputation” of the disgraced order and acknowledge that assets worth some £80 million were confiscated.

459

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:29:53pm

re: #457 avanti

OK, maybe your idea that the ice bridge melted for some reason unrelated to the temperature rise is valid, but it would not hurt to find the reason.
BTW, there is some good news relating to the increased CO2 levels, trees love it.

trees.

STOP THE PRESSES ,.,..TREES LOVE CO 2 !

ggeeeezzzzz!

460

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:30:18pm

re: #441 Sharmuta

You can also submit funny comments for the ROTFLOL section.

Wouldn't that just end up being the Buzzsawmonkey section, though?

461

SixDegrees Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:30:41pm

re: #444 doppelganglander

I'm sure the History Channel will be right on this.

This is still entirely consistent with the Shroud being a middle-ages forgery. Nice that they were able to patch the hole in it's history, but it doesn't change the C-14 dating of the shroud nor call into question the most likely account of it's origin - a manufactured "relic" produced at a time when such "treasures" were exceedingly common and fetched a handsome price.

462

Racer X Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:30:45pm

re: #459 sattv4u2

Water is wet.

463

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:31:03pm

re: #460 Slumbering Behemoth

Nope- lots of Lizards in Volume 1 had funny quotes reprinted.

464

razorbacker Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:31:58pm

While sentenced to Katy, Texas, we were visited by my in-laws. Arrival night I cooked up a big pot of whatchagot stew. It was universally approved by all attendees.

So much so that my mother-in-law called the next month to ask me for the recipe, so that she might stew up a pot.

She was a bit nonplussed to learn that whatchagot stew consisted of whatever leftovers might be in the fridge that were not too terribly far gone over to the rotten side.

I told her that she had lucked out. Some pots of whatchagot were hardly edible by civilized peoples.

465

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:32:29pm

re: #460 Slumbering Behemoth

Wouldn't that just end up being the Buzzsawmonkey section, though?

re: #463 Sharmuta

Nope- lots of Lizards in Volume 1 had funny quotes reprinted.

It sounds like Sleepy Elephant needs to buy Vol 1 and take a look!

466

screaming_eagle Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:32:46pm

re: #462 Racer X

Water is wet.

Did the UN vote on that?

467

sattv4u2 Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:33:51pm

re: #457 avanti

OK, maybe your idea that the ice bridge melted for some reason unrelated to the temperature rise is valid, but it would not hurt to find the reason. BTW, there is some good news relating to the increased CO2 levels, trees love it.

trees.

Yes it WOULD hurt. It would be a waste of time effort and money. Go back in 50 years after the temp has RISEN an average of 0.9 degreees every 10 years for 50 years and BINGO ,,, the ice bridge will be BACK!

468

SixDegrees Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:33:56pm

re: #458 Racer X

The pope also, wisely, says that the determination of the origin of the Shroud lies in the realm of science, and is therefore outside the Church's realm of expertise. The Vatican mostly prefers to be informed by science, rather than to be it's antagonist.

469

FrogMarch Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:34:29pm

In this political climate it should be easy to defeat idiots like Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. Instead, the Republican Party is wasting its time on issues that should not even be a part of a political platform. Religion is a personal matter. and- on the flip side, teaching our children science in public schools is as American as mom and apple pie.

470

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:34:48pm

re: #465 reine.de.tout

Dangit! I'm not an elephant, I'm a RINO!
///

Would love to buy it, but alas I am poor. No bank accounts or credit cards for this Lizard.

471

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:35:48pm

re: #256 quickjustice

Lesser of two evils is too often the choice in U.S. politics today. That's why I supported John McCain in the general election.

Yeah, me too. I liked some of what he was about, disliked much else. But I found NOTHING appealing in Obama's platform.

As for Sarah Palin vs. Joe Biden, I clearly and decisively preferred Palin.

472

jcm Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:42:07pm

re: #465 reine.de.tout

Just (finally) got a round tuit, a few recipes.
Persian food!

473

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:44:10pm

re: #322 Zimriel

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the connection of Christian eschatology with Islam.

As for Evangelicals, I recall in the 1970s being told directly by an Evangelical that I was going to Hell because, as a Jew, I was not saved through accepting Christ as my Savior. I assume that the theology hasn't changed much -- maybe the belief is that righteous Jews go to someplace not as bad as Hell -- but I notice that I haven't heard anyone in years telling me directly that I'm doomed for not accepting Christ. So if they can tolerate me even though I don't accept their beliefs, I'm happy to tolerate them and accept their support. It's a whole lot better than the general relations between fundamentalist Muslims and Jews in the global scheme of things.

474

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:45:15pm

re: #435 Racer X

Knights Templar hid the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican

Oh sure, that's what they want you to think. Little do they know that it was hidden away in a secret chamber under Denver the whole time, where it was used to wrap the gamy bodies of time-travelling Kos kommenters!

Yum!

/said too much didn't i

475

[deleted] Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:48:54pm

476

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:49:01pm

re: #454 trendsurfer

The unmentionable: the path these people had to take over the GOP has been abortion. I'd wager most Republicans who are not creationists don't want abortion illegal. Yet they can't advocate that position due to the onslaught of talking heads on the Right who tell us conservatives are "pro-life". The only way to root these people out of the Party is to vote for the Democrat in state and local elections.

That is a non-sequitur.

477

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:53:36pm

re: #473 stuiec

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the connection of Christian eschatology with Islam.

Would you like to subscribe to my newsletter...? ;^)

Okay, I don't have a newsletter, but I do have some references for you to check out. Dr David Cook has written the excellent Studies in Muslim Apocalyptic, about mediaeval (mostly Syrian) Muslim apocalyptic. What struck me was how apocalyptic Islam was in its earliest years; but then, the Sunnis mostly grew up, and apocalyptic moved into Shi'a-land. The Shi'a have a markedly different apocalyptic tradition, which is bound up with the notion of the Imam al-Mahdi (and it's more famous than Sunni apocalyptic). Cook followed that up with Contemporary Muslim Apocalyptic Literature, which I haven't read, but I have given some of the articles it was based on a whirl ("America as the Second 'Ad", for instance).

Other scholars who publish on this vein are Wilferd Madelung and Michael Cook. Watch out for Richard Landes; he's apparently popular, but he's one of the Eurabia guys and they're susceptible to apocalyptic paranoia of their own.

478

jcm Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:53:52pm

re: #454 trendsurfer

The unmentionable: the path these people had to take over the GOP has been abortion. I'd wager most Republicans who are not creationists don't want abortion illegal. Yet they can't advocate that position due to the onslaught of talking heads on the Right who tell us conservatives are "pro-life". The only way to root these people out of the Party is to vote for the Democrat in state and local elections.

That's nice. The socialist are running the (D)s right now. You might have legal abortion, but at the other end you wont' get medical care (Daschel) and will get offered suicide meds instead (Oregon).

479

Sunlight Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:55:07pm

re: #454 trendsurfer

The unmentionable: the path these people had to take over the GOP has been abortion. I'd wager most Republicans who are not creationists don't want abortion illegal. Yet they can't advocate that position due to the onslaught of talking heads on the Right who tell us conservatives are "pro-life". The only way to root these people out of the Party is to vote for the Democrat in state and local elections.

Yeah, but... I'm noticing people fleeing the Dem areas like CA, MI, Chitown, etc. are fanning out across the U.S. and then initiating and voting for the exact type of Dem BS that has them fleeing their homestate. So the entire region (out west) is in danger of sinking right behind CA, etc. Combine that with the Dem corruption (in NM) and I'm not willing to vote Dem in state and local elections. I just don't know what to do.

480

edsamsel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 5:56:38pm

For what little it's worth, I voted for Claitor twice (two elections), few of my candidates get elected these days. In the original three-candidate debate, they were asked about teaching this religion in public school science class and only Claitor was against. His opponent did not campaign on the issue, however, but ran radio adds implying that Claitor's legal (he's an attorney) defense of criminals implied that he approved of the crimes. We don't really need more lawyers in government but he is clearly more educated than his opponent.

481

reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:06:34pm

re: #473 stuiec

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the connection of Christian eschatology with Islam.

As for Evangelicals, I recall in the 1970s being told directly by an Evangelical that I was going to Hell because, as a Jew, I was not saved through accepting Christ as my Savior. I assume that the theology hasn't changed much -- maybe the belief is that righteous Jews go to someplace not as bad as Hell -- but I notice that I haven't heard anyone in years telling me directly that I'm doomed for not accepting Christ. So if they can tolerate me even though I don't accept their beliefs, I'm happy to tolerate them and accept their support. It's a whole lot better than the general relations between fundamentalist Muslims and Jews in the global scheme of things.

People who declare that a person is "going" here or there are awfully arrogant, imo.

It ain't their decision to make.

482

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:11:47pm

re: #473 stuiec

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the connection of Christian eschatology with Islam.

As for Evangelicals, I recall in the 1970s being told directly by an Evangelical that I was going to Hell because, as a Jew, I was not saved through accepting Christ as my Savior. I assume that the theology hasn't changed much -- maybe the belief is that righteous Jews go to someplace not as bad as Hell -- but I notice that I haven't heard anyone in years telling me directly that I'm doomed for not accepting Christ. So if they can tolerate me even though I don't accept their beliefs, I'm happy to tolerate them and accept their support. It's a whole lot better than the general relations between fundamentalist Muslims and Jews in the global scheme of things.

Tolerating their religious beliefs isn't the problem; the problem is when they demand the right to use the public schools as vehicles by means of which to proselytize their religous beliefs.

483

NelsFree Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:19:01pm

re: #322 Zimriel

[*Sunni Muslim apocalyptic was always close to Revelation; they got a lot of that filtered to them in Syria during the first centuries. And more recently, Harun Yahya and others use Revelation "straight from the bottle", barely Islamising even the surface of it.]

You may be interested in the comparison of Christian and Islamic Eschatology. Can't find the link right now, though.

484

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:23:10pm

re: #480 edsamsel

Thanks for that information.

485

NelsFree Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:25:44pm

re: #378 jwb7605

On the bright side, it's important to note that by that math, Obama has only spent roughly 3 dollars per day since the earth was formed.

God's Latte habit.

486

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:27:20pm

re: #482 Salamantis

Tolerating their religious beliefs isn't the problem; the problem is when they demand the right to use the public schools as vehicles by means of which to proselytize their religous beliefs.

Well, their tolerating MY religious beliefs was definitely a problem for quite a long time. And I would argue that their trying to push creationism in public schools constitutes intolerance of other religious beliefs -- so that part of the solution to that problem is to get Evangelicals to accept that public schools are not the proper forum to evangelize for their religious views. There is a difference between the right to free expression of one's religion and the right of others not to be subjected to evangelism in a closed setting, right?

487

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:34:08pm

re: #481 reine.de.tout

People who declare that a person is "going" here or there are awfully arrogant, imo.

It ain't their decision to make.

I agree. Generally I ignore such pronouncements, because the speaker is only speaking about his belief and not about what I believe will happen.

This is one reason I don't agree with Jewish community leaders who put emphasis on getting the LDS Church (the Mormons) to stop baptizing dead Jews. Do these Jewish leaders truly believe that our ancestors are being plucked from their stations in the afterlife and tossed into Mormon heaven because of these rituals? And do these Jewish leaders believe that if the LDS Church stops performing these rituals, their members will stop believing in the spiritual basis for and power of these rituals?

I'd be pleased if non-Jews simply ignored the spiritual fate of Jews and attended to their own. I understand however the mandate in Christianity and Islam to spread the good word and save the souls of unbelievers. If we can reach a point where the efforts to save Jewish souls don't involve actually preaching to Jews (let alone taking even more forceful measures), I'll be very happy.

488

NelsFree Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:36:17pm

re: #483 NelsFree

You may be interested in the comparison of Christian and Islamic Eschatology. Can't find the link right now, though.

Found it!

[Link: answering-islam.org....]

489

Chronos Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:48:51pm

Ya know, I don't get all worked up over "creationists" unless they buy into the dinosaur bone burying junk. While I "believe" in evolution (note that we have no hard proof this is truth), I also think there is plenty of room to consider intelligent design. Terry Prachett's "Strata", although sci-fi/fantasy tongue-in-cheek, shows how just about any theory can be tossed aside given enough creative thinking (and burying of dinosaur bones).

So the real issue should be, are we teaching children to think critically and to evaluate several sides of an argument in the course. To this end, unlike LGF, I have no problem teaching other thoughts about the origins of man in our public schools. What if evolution turns out to be wrong? Or what if there's a mix? Intelligent Design + evolution? Quantum theory suggests that natural selection may not be troof and that we may be pushing ourselves in a particular direction.

So all you anti-creation jihadists might consider chilling. Or not.

490

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:53:14pm

re: #489 Chronos

Clearly you do not understand the unconstitutional and un-American agenda of the Discovery Institute.

491

Sharmuta Sun, Apr 5, 2009 6:55:16pm

re: #489 Chronos

Evolution is not wrong- there is mountains of evidence supporting it from the fossil record to DNA.

And regardless, nothing gives anyone the right to trump the rights of parents in deciding what faith they will teach their own children.

492

Salamantis Sun, Apr 5, 2009 7:01:31pm

re: #489 Chronos

Ya know, I don't get all worked up over "creationists" unless they buy into the dinosaur bone burying junk. While I "believe" in evolution (note that we have no hard proof this is truth),

We have plenty of hard evidence for evolution: geological, biological, paleontological, embryonic, and genetic.

I also think there is plenty of room to consider intelligent design. Terry Prachett's "Strata", although sci-fi/fantasy tongue-in-cheek, shows how just about any theory can be tossed aside given enough creative thinking (and burying of dinosaur bones).

For Genesis Literalism creationism to be true requires a lying God who systematically and intentionally faked vast masses of empirical evidence in our soil and genes.

So the real issue should be, are we teaching children to think critically and to evaluate several sides of an argument in the course. To this end, unlike LGF, I have no problem teaching other thoughts about the origins of man in our public schools. What if evolution turns out to be wrong? Or what if there's a mix? Intelligent Design + evolution? Quantum theory suggests that natural selection may not be troof and that we may be pushing ourselves in a particular direction.

Quantum theory suggests no such thing. And religious dogmas do not belong in public high school science classes, only empirical science belongs there. Creationism/ID is religious dogma, as there is not a single solitary shred of empirical evidence supporting it, and tankerloads of empirical evidence falsifying the Biblicak Literalist version. Evolution is empirical science, because mountains and oceans of empirical evidence gathered in the past 150 years supports it, while not a single iota or whit of credible empirrical evidence contradicts it.

So all you anti-creation jihadists might consider chilling. Or not.

Jihad is engaged in supposedly in the defence of a religion, but is in fact comprised by attacks by that religion's adherents against any and all who do not embrace their pet dogmas. By that definition, those who oppose the public school indoctrination of other peoples' children in creationists' pet dogmas are not engaging in jihad, but fighting against one; it is the creationism-in-public-schools folks who are the ones in jihad mode.

493

Zimriel Sun, Apr 5, 2009 7:04:16pm

re: #489 Chronos

Ya know, I don't get all worked up over "creationists"

No big deal, which is why he posted an extended comment on the subject. DRINK!

unless they buy into the dinosaur bone burying junk. While I "believe" in evolution (note that we have no hard proof this is truth),

Pretending agreement with science while undercutting himself before he even gets to the period in the sentence. DRINK!

I also think there is plenty of room to consider intelligent design.

Support for ID couched in terms of "considering" it. DRINK!

Terry Prachett's "Strata", although sci-fi/fantasy tongue-in-cheek, shows how just about any theory can be tossed aside given enough creative thinking (and burying of dinosaur bones).

Citing an entertainer as an authority. DRINK!
Hinting that the theory is a fraud. DRINK!

So the real issue should be, are we teaching children to think critically and to evaluate several sides of an argument in the course.

Bringing unfalsifiable theories into class as "critical thinking". DRINK!

To this end, unlike LGF, I have no problem teaching other thoughts about the origins of man in our public schools. What if evolution turns out to be wrong?.

"What if" invocation which is based on no evidence. DRINK!

Or what if there's a mix? Intelligent Design + evolution? Quantum theory suggests that natural selection may not be troof and that we may be pushing ourselves in a particular direction.

Hinting at 9/11 Truth ("troof") with reference to evolution. DRINK!
Citing other theories which have no bearing on the topic. DRINK!

So all you anti-creation jihadists might consider chilling. Or not.

Calling us a bunch of "jihadists" and at the same time imagining that he has the authority to tell US to "chill".

Not worth drinking; that's a dessert of Meltdown Sundae with a frosting of Gamey #22.

494

stuiec Sun, Apr 5, 2009 7:14:05pm

re: #477 Zimriel

Many thanks.

495

hazzyday Sun, Apr 5, 2009 8:22:18pm

re: #489 Chronos

You're applying the concept of intelligent design here incorrectly.

496

voluble Sun, Apr 5, 2009 8:37:27pm

ID can't be taught in schools because it is not a scientific theory. It is a religious one. We teach enough things of dubious veracity in our schools without having to add more. Unfortunately, I don't know from the stand a politician takes on this one issue if I am happy or sad that this guy lost. For instance, if his opponent were to support Obama's involuntary servitude plan for school kids under the auspices of "community service" then I would vote for the ID guy all day long and twice on Sunday. I am just not that into the whole slavery thing. There is idiocy and then there is tyranny. A man has to have his priorities in order.

I am glad Charles is pointing these things out. I would just be careful of demonizing any one candidate over this particular issue. There is normally not much to choose from when it comes to politicians. An ID guy in Pelosi's position for instance might do less harm than someone who doesn't know what a fossil fuel is while wanting to reshape the entire energy industry to suit her whims. On a local level, where curriculums are set, just the opposite may be true.

497

BLBfootballs Sun, Apr 5, 2009 8:56:25pm

re: #147 LionOfDixon

Funny, but I remember hearing in science classes a lot of disproven scientific theories....I.e. that the earth was the center of the Universe vice Galileo's findings.....or that the heart was the center of reason, instead of the head.

In fact, one of the best ways to teach science is by disproving other theories.....creationism is a theory....that is all....it is teachable even if one does not believe in it.

I don't see how it can be argued that Creationism is a scientific theory. It's just not. It's a religious belief, an existential belief, etc. etc. But it's not based on science nor is it arrived at through scientific principles. And no scientific data makes one wit of difference to the holder of the belief. I suppose you could evaluate literal Creationist beliefs and see how they stand up in the light of current scientific knowledge. But the lesson wouldn't be very long. Just one or two days of class would be all you need to demonstrate that the belief lacks scientific standing.

498

Chronos Mon, Apr 6, 2009 6:43:19am

It's amazing to me how hard corps people on both sides of this issue are being. Truly polarized. I took alternative religions in high school and college. I ended up agnostic.

@Zimriel -- I made a series of thoughts with a sense of humor which you chose to demean by ad hom. OK, try again but without your need to belittle people turned on. I never cited an entertainer as an authority -- just as an example of how little may really know about our world if we assume there are beings more powerful than us.

@all - This really is an exercise in reasonable doubt. All I said (AFTER SAYING I BELIEVED IN EVOLUTION) was that there is room for other thoughts in the teaching of the issue and that it doesn't get me all worked up that some would like to see that happen. Yeesh. No wonder no one can work together any more. This "my way or the highway" attitude seems to be so ingrained with some that discourse is impossible.

499

Mr Secul Mon, Apr 6, 2009 7:39:15am

re: #498 Chronos

It's amazing to me how hard corps people on both sides of this issue are being. Truly polarized. I took alternative religions in high school and college. I ended up agnostic.

Did you take alternative religions in a science class? Was it physics, chemistry or biology?

@all - This really is an exercise in reasonable doubt. All I said (AFTER SAYING I BELIEVED IN EVOLUTION) was that there is room for other thoughts in the teaching of the issue and that it doesn't get me all worked up that some would like to see that happen. Yeesh. No wonder no one can work together any more. This "my way or the highway" attitude seems to be so ingrained with some that discourse is impossible.

Why are you so completely missing the point?

The discussions are about teaching creationism in science classes.

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