We Got Mail!

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Among the dozen or so hate mails I’ve received this morning for not hating Barack Obama enough, here’s an email of support from a terrific writer, Tim Powers:

Hello, Charles —

This is just a brief note to counter some of the mail you’ve apparently been getting — I very much appreciate your robust sanity on issues like “hope Obama fails,” and creationism, and “Obama bowed to Abdullah!” and all the rest of the topics that make Conservatives look childish. We don’t need fantasies to validly oppose liberalism, after all.

Keep up the great work!

Cheers,
Tim

If you aren’t familiar with Tim’s work, he’s one of the most inventive fantasists in American literature, and I highly recommend his books. Here are a few of my favorites:

The Anubis Gates
The Stress of Her Regard
Declare
Three Days to Never
Last Call

Amazon search: Tim Powers

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801 comments
1 vxbush  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:26:07am

I must admit, I've never heard of this writer. But then I'm a bit more focused on nonfiction: math, geek books, etc.

2 Erik The Red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:26:13am

Great to hear that you are not "preaching" to the moon Charles. Keep it sane and unbiased.

3 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:26:32am

Not famous, but hold the exact same opinion.

4 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:26:35am

Name dropper!

5 yesandno  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:27:16am

The powers of Tim!

6 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:27:27am
We don’t need fantasies to validly oppose liberalism, after all.

Keep up the great work!

He's right on both observations.

7 Bloodnok  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:27:29am

Charles has ORS (Obama Reality Syndrome)

8 Right mind left  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:27:52am

What is right isn't always popular. Thank you for doing what is right, Charles, it helps keep the sanity when it is easier to run with a crowd.

9 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:27:55am

a groupie?

10 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:27:58am

I have never heard of Tim Powers but it was nice of him to send that email Charles. Like vxbuxh I am more into non fiction. I am reading Fleeced by Dick Morris and I about to check out this Levine book.

11 jaunte  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:28:18am

Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates" was great. Highly recommended.

12 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:28:19am

First and foremost, I recommend The Anubis Gates, which remains one of the most remarkable reads I've ever had.

13 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:28:57am

re: #9 Big Steve

a groupie?

I don't know about Tim Powers for Charles, or Charles for Tim Powers, but I'm a Powers groupie, and a huge fan of Charles'.

14 jaunte  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:29:15am

re: #12 Dianna

Dead heat!

15 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:29:23am

I thought the name 'Tim Powers' rang a bell ....

16 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:29:37am

re: #11 jaunte

Tim Powers "The Anubis Gates" was great. Highly recommended.

That's my favorite as well.

So nice to hear that not all the mail is hate mail, and sane people write as well.

17 Right mind left  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:29:56am

More Powers to you!

18 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:30:19am

re: #10 Afrocity

I have never heard of Tim Powers but it was nice of him to send that email Charles. Like vxbuxh I am more into non fiction. I am reading Fleeced by Dick Morris and I about to check out this Levine book.

You might try Powers. He's quite good on the Romantic poets; better than I've ever been.

19 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:30:25am

I hope the gems take away the stench of the turds you get.

20 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:30:30am

What? There is no place for intellectual honesty and objectivity here of all places, right?
/

21 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:30:52am

Hey! There really is a pony in the pile of manure.

22 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:31:10am

re: #14 jaunte

Dead heat!

I like most of Powers' work.

Though his penchant for beating up his characters sometimes makes me shake my head.

23 kansas  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:31:45am

In reading all this it did dawn on me that it wasn't the BDS of bloggers that got O elected, but rather the BDS of the media. ODS, unless acquired by the MSM, will result in increased empathy for the O.

24 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:31:50am

re: #19 MandyManners HMTA - Hive Minds Think Alike!

25 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:31:57am

Must be nice not getting something written in crayon for a change.

26 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:32:24am

re: #19 MandyManners

I hope the gems take away the stench of the turds you get.

They do!

27 tryptic67  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:32:58am

So Obama didn't bow to Abdullah? That was just a fantasy? I'm very glad to know that I can't trust my own lying eyes.

28 jaunte  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:33:02am

re: #22 Dianna

I don't read much fantasy, so other than Anubis Gates, I can't comment.
It's good to have a recommended list, now.

29 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:33:04am

It's not fair to want Charles to ask when Tim's going to get a new book out, is it?

30 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:33:12am
31 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:33:27am

I want Obama to fail in implementing most of his political ideas/views and I was repulsed by the bow.

If that is insanity, call me insane.

32 PatriotLizardoid  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:34:02am

Well said. There is absolutely no call for engaging in Obama Derangement Syndrome, or for setting up double standards so typical of the lefty blogosphere (with regards to the bowing). As a biology graduate AND a Christian, I appreciate the coverage of the evolution vs. creationist nonsense.

33 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:34:11am

Gates Calls for Cuts to High-Tech Weapons Programs
Defense Secretary Robert Gates announces a broad range of cuts to weapons spending, saying he plans to cut programs ranging from a new helicopter for the president to ending production of the $140 billion F-22 fighter jet.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

F-22----been nice knowing ya?---Big Big mistake!

34 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:34:41am

F-22 DOA

Gates to cut several major weapons programs

WASHINGTON – Defense Secretary Robert Gates is proposing deep cuts to some big weapons programs such as the F-22 fighter jet as the Pentagon takes a hard look at how it spends money.

Gates announced a broad range of cuts Monday to weapons spending, saying he plans to cut programs ranging from a new helicopter for the president to ending production of the $140 billion F-22 fighter jet. The Army's modernization program would be scaled back, while a new satellite system and a search-and-rescue helicopter would be cut.

Gates says his budget will "profoundly reform" the way the Pentagon buys weapons and does business.

To fight new threats from insurgents, Gates is proposing more funding for special forces and other tools.

35 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:34:46am

re: #28 jaunte

I don't read much fantasy, so other than Anubis Gates, I can't comment.
It's good to have a recommended list, now.

He's got some really interesting books. I liked On Stranger Tides, and I'm quite intrigued by his take on the Fisher King, as seen in both The Drawing of the Dark and the Last Call series.

Even if it's not clear, at first, that the other two books are related.

36 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:35:14am

re: #21 DaddyG
I would turn off e-mail completely if I had to put up with this shit- or hire somebody to read it for me, like our legislators do.

37 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:35:20am

re: #33 Nevergiveup

Gates Calls for Cuts to High-Tech Weapons Programs
Defense Secretary Robert Gates announces a broad range of cuts to weapons spending, saying he plans to cut programs ranging from a new helicopter for the president to ending production of the $140 billion F-22 fighter jet.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

F-22----been nice knowing ya?---Big Big mistake!

He already has a helicopter that's new...to him.
The F-22, though, why exactly?

38 rightside  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:35:32am

What the hell? Any Canadian lizards heard of this?

39 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:35:35am

re: #31 Opinionated

I want Obama to fail in implementing most of his political ideas/views and I was repulsed by the bow.

If that is insanity, call me insane.

We do that for so many other reasons!

//

40 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:36:12am

re: #27 tryptic67

So Obama didn't bow to Abdullah? That was just a fantasy? I'm very glad to know that I can't trust my own lying eyes.

Oh puleeze!

Use yer brains and follow the arguments!
Its not about bows, its about something else, and more insiduous.

If you think ODS is a good political instrument, then this is not the place for you.

Sorry - I'm in a bad mood today!

41 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:36:16am

re: #27 tryptic67

So Obama didn't bow to Abdullah? That was just a fantasy? I'm very glad to know that I can't trust my own lying eyes.

And that makes him ,,,,,,,,,,,!?!?!?!?

42 YMedad  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:36:24am

Does the George MacDonald Fraser "Flashman" series (I've read them all) count as "fantasy"?

43 jorline  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:36:28am

Sorry for the early OT.

Wasn't it the left that was bitching about the troops not having what they needed in Iraq?

Gates Calls for Cuts to High-Tech Weapons Programs

Defense Secretary Robert Gates announces a broad range of cuts to weapons spending, saying he plans to cut programs ranging from a new helicopter for the president to ending production of the $140 billion F-22 fighter jet.

We'll be throw rocks soon.
*sigh*

44 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:36:33am

re: #27 tryptic67

So Obama didn't bow to Abdullah? That was just a fantasy? I'm very glad to know that I can't trust my own lying eyes.

He bowed, Bush held hands and got a medal, and they all kissed Saudi ass, I think that was the point.

45 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:36:36am

re: #37 J.D.

He already has a helicopter that's new...to him.
The F-22, though, why exactly?

Each copy of the F-22 is very expensive.

And we're not making many, anyway.

Obama does not believe in staying ahead on the power curve, apparently.

46 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:02am

re: #38 rightside

What the hell? Any Canadian lizards heard of this?

Kind of misses the point of having/being parents, doesn't it?

47 vxbush  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:10am

re: #18 Dianna

You might try Powers. He's quite good on the Romantic poets; better than I've ever been.

I'll suggest it to my husband. He's always looking for good stuff to read.

48 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:14am

re: #31 Opinionated

I want Obama to fail in implementing most of his political ideas/views and I was repulsed by the bow.

If that is insanity, call me insane.

I would like Obama to succeed doing the right things, but I most certainly do not want success if it means a government takeover of the economy.
Sure looked like a bow from the waist to the Saudi King to me.

49 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:17am

re: #23 kansas

In reading all this it did dawn on me that it wasn't the BDS of bloggers that got O elected, but rather the BDS of the media. ODS, unless acquired by the MSM, will result in increased empathy for the O.

ODS is odious. We need to stay away from it.

50 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:19am

re: #29 Dianna

It's not fair to want Charles to ask when Tim's going to get a new book out, is it?

no whistle, no foul...

51 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:38am

re: #37 J.D.

He already has a helicopter that's new...to him.
The F-22, though, why exactly?

money spent on Military equipment does nothing to take control of banks, prop up failed business or buy votes in the next campaign.

It will cause an expected 95,000 jobs to be lost though if the program is scrapped.

52 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:47am

re: #25 Boxy_brown

Must be nice not getting something written in crayon for a change.

or cut out letters!

53 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:48am

re: #27 tryptic67

So Obama didn't bow to Abdullah? That was just a fantasy? I'm very glad to know that I can't trust my own lying eyes.

That wasn't the point. Every president of the United States going back to JFK has been bowing (and basically blowing) the Saudis. It's phony outrage. Conservative didn't throw a temper tantrum when George Bush did it.

54 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:51am

If we don't need fantasies, but he writes fantasies, then, well, maybe fantasies help a little anyway?

55 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:54am

Fascinating to watch LGF Spy, as the sleepers come out of the woodwork to down-ding my posts about the bow, and up-ding posts that insult me.

I've seen at least six people doing this in the last half hour, who have either 1) never commented, or 2) posted less than 10 comments in the last 4 years.

It's amusing in not-very-amusing way.

56 rightside  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:37:58am

re: #46 J.D.

I guess... you should read the comments...f'ing hilarious! Moonbattery is alive and well!

No worries, the govt will care for them.

57 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:38:07am

re: #11 jaunte

re: #12 Dianna

Well, based on these two comments - I just ordered that book.
I do wish it had a kindle version, though . . .

58 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:38:26am

Oh, sorry: The other two books are Expiration Date and Earthquake Weather.

59 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:38:29am

re: #53 ArchangelMichael

That wasn't the point. Every president of the United States going back to JFK has been bowing (and basically blowing) the Saudis. It's phony outrage. Conservative didn't throw a temper tantrum when George Bush did it.

Ddidn't have to when he smooched Abdullah. It was all over the media.

60 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:38:58am

re: #18 Dianna

You might try Powers. He's quite good on the Romantic poets; better than I've ever been.

Hey you are not the same Dianna that is stalking me on Facebook?
There is someone named Dianna that keeps contacting me asking to to be a friend. She says she is a republican and has no friends and wants to interact with me. I almost said yes because I thought it was you. Then I saw her pic and she looks 19 -ish. I asked her is she was a Daily Kos plant and she said she did not know was Kos was.

61 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:39:05am

Gates Calls for Cuts to High-Tech Weapons Programs
Defense Secretary Robert Gates announces a broad range of cuts to weapons spending, saying he plans to cut programs ranging from a new helicopter for the president to ending production of the $140 billion F-22 fighter jet.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Big Big Mistake. Been nice knowing ya F-22! I never liked Gates as I have said many times before.

62 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:39:15am

re: #42 YMedad

Does the George MacDonald Fraser "Flashman" series (I've read them all) count as "fantasy"?

No - thats called pastiche, iirc - but they are absolutely wonderful, hilarious, and a jolly good way of learning a bit about the empire building of Great Britain!

(Yep - read them all, meself ...)

63 Erik The Red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:39:33am

re: #55 Charles

Fascinating to watch LGF Spy, as the sleepers come out of the woodwork to down-ding my posts about the bow, and up-ding posts that insult me.

I've seen at least six people doing this in the last half hour, who have either 1) never commented, or 2) posted less than 10 comments in the last 4 years.

It's amusing in not-very-amusing way.

Give them the stick Charles. They are not adding any value to your site.

64 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:39:39am

re: #42 YMedad

Does the George MacDonald Fraser "Flashman" series (I've read them all) count as "fantasy"?

More like historical satire, I think.

65 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:39:45am
66 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #38 rightside

What the hell? Any Canadian lizards heard of this?

Great! I get to live with the "adults" that result from this unconditional parenting. I agree with the psych. who said it is a parents job to socialize the child. We have enough feral children in the world without doing it on purpose.

67 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:39:52am

re: #55 Charles

Well, look at it this way- they increase the readership numbers, and you haven't had to put up with any their crap in the comments section for years 'cus they never comment!

/looking for the bright side-

68 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:05am

re: #55 Charles

Time for a ban stick party?

69 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:08am

re: #59 OldLineTexan

Ddidn't have to when he smooched Abdullah. It was all over the media.

i.e., "conservatives" really had no need to criticize everything Bush did (although some of us rode his pony pretty hard on the border), because the MSM had that job covered deeper than P-38s in a Greenland ice pack.

70 nikis-knight  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:20am

What's the point of mail posts when each article has a comment thread?

71 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:30am

re: #33 Nevergiveup

F-22----been nice knowing ya?---Big Big mistake!

Let's be optimistic and say that we can cut the F-22 because a new generation of UCAVs is very close. Unfortunately, them still being top-secret (if they exist at all), we don't know if those are getting cut as well.

But the maintenance and lifetimes of pretty much all existing aircraft, is getting a little dicey. While I have a positive impression of Gates, I surely don't of Obama, and a little public discussion of this all would be very beneficial.

72 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

F-22 DOA

FUCK.

Say goodbye to the era of American air dominance.

73 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:36am

re: #45 OldLineTexan

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It seems as though there has been talk of cutting the funding for the F-22 for quite a while. I thought maybe there was something wrong with it...?

74 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:41am

re: #55 Charles

Fascinating to watch LGF Spy, as the sleepers come out of the woodwork to down-ding my posts about the bow, and up-ding posts that insult me.

I've seen at least six people doing this in the last half hour, who have either 1) never commented, or 2) posted less than 10 comments in the last 4 years.

It's amusing in not-very-amusing way.


You're doing the rest of us a service. If they weren't sitting here ready to downding you, they would be out in public ,, amongst people ,,,in malls ,, driving around highways ,,,

think of the carnage they would be able to inflct, man!

75 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:40:48am

re: #60 Afrocity

Hey you are not the same Dianna that is stalking me on Facebook?
There is someone named Dianna that keeps contacting me asking to to be a friend. She says she is a republican and has no friends and wants to interact with me. I almost said yes because I thought it was you. Then I saw her pic and she looks 19 -ish. I asked her is she was a Daily Kos plant and she said she did not know was Kos was.

Heck, no!

I've never - so far as I know - been on facebook. And I'm 45, and look it.

76 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:41:01am

re: #43 jorline

Sorry for the early OT.

Wasn't it the left that was bitching about the troops not having what they needed in Iraq?

Gates Calls for Cuts to High-Tech Weapons Programs

We'll be throw rocks soon.
*sigh*

That's the whole thrust of the change in defense spending. End production of 300 million dollar fighters designed for the cold war, and expand the Army and conventional weapons. Any idea how much body armor you can buy for the price of one F-22 ?
Defense spending will go up, not down, and the money will be spent for the type of wars we're fighting today.

77 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:41:08am

re: #70 nikis-knight

What's the point of mail posts when each article has a comment thread?

Gives the femail posts something to look at and talk about

78 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:41:38am

re: #55 Charles

Fascinating to watch LGF Spy, as the sleepers come out of the woodwork to down-ding my posts about the bow, and up-ding posts that insult me.

I've seen at least six people doing this in the last half hour, who have either 1) never commented, or 2) posted less than 10 comments in the last 4 years.

It's amusing in not-very-amusing way.

If you cast a line with a baited hook, why complain when you catch some fish?

79 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:41:55am
To fight new threats from insurgents, Gates is proposing more funding for special forces and other tools.

Excellent! We'll just focus on fighting the last war. What could possibly go wrong?

80 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:42:03am

re: #37 J.D.

He already has a helicopter that's new...to him.
The F-22, though, why exactly?

Many people think the F-22 isn't worth it, and that our enemies don't have planes that need such an expensive aircraft to fight. That doesn't mean they won't have them and we'll be stuck.

As for the helicopter, I thought the current ones were getting near the end of their lives.
And since it was a Eurocopter that was selected, the Europeans aren't going to be happy it was canceled. (I still think it should have been the Sikorsky S-92, which is an excellent copter, and AMERICAN! I don't think the POTUS should be carried around in a Eurocopter.)

81 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:42:07am

re: #73 J.D.

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It seems as though there has been talk of cutting the funding for the F-22 for quite a while. I thought maybe there was something wrong with it...?

It is hellaciously expensive. I have heard of two flight anomalies, one ending in a crash, that I can remember. But I have not researched it.

82 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:42:08am

re: #77 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Gives the femail posts something to look at and talk about

I once dated a female that was interesting as a fence post!

No ,, wait ,, thats an insult to fence posts!

83 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:42:11am
84 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:42:12am

re: #49 CyanSnowHawk

ODS is odious. We need to stay away from it.

Absolutely.
Think of the story of the little boy who called 'wolf' ....

ODS will get those who indulge in it labelled as unthinking hysterics, whose opinions are of no account.
Any valid criticism is thus devalued, a priori, because of prior ODS.

Not a good way of fighting successfulpolitical campaigns.

85 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:42:45am

re: #54 itellu3times

If we don't need fantasies, but he writes fantasies, then, well, maybe fantasies help a little anyway?

Declare is fascinating, though. He writes in the epilogue that he used Philby's daily schedule; nothing is allowed to happen in the book that he can't actually tie to an action of Kim Philby's.

It makes you think.

86 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:42:46am

re: #76 avanti

That's the whole thrust of the change in defense spending. End production of 300 million dollar fighters designed for the cold war, and expand the Army and conventional weapons. Any idea how much body armor you can buy for the price of one F-22 ?

Do you have any idea how much body armor you're going to NEED, if you don't have an F-22 when you need one?

87 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:00am

re: #53 ArchangelMichael

That wasn't the point. Every president of the United States going back to JFK has been bowing (and basically blowing) the Saudis. It's phony outrage. Conservative didn't throw a temper tantrum when George Bush did it.

It isn't "phony" outrage at all.
the "Bush/Saudi" incident I recall that outraged me was when he invited the guy to his ranch in Crawford - his private home! - and then walked around hand-in-hand.

It's silly to believe that conservatives were "OK when Bush did it", when actually, the thing that many conservatives I know were upset about happened to be something other than a bow.

88 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:05am

History Returns

North Korea's missile launch, and the US reaction to it, should remind us of the multi-polar world into which we are headed. The post WWII period - and the subsequent Cold War - was characterized by the leadership of 2 principal Superpowers. The Soviet decline left one. However, increasingly we are finding that the US is - in most cases, correctly - going to be unwilling to act as the protector of any single nation. The US will protect its vital interests and force others to protect theirs.

If North Korea is to be deterred or reformed, it will spring from a Chinese decision that arises out of a concern over Japan. Ultimately, a Japanese drive to rearm and defend itself - and cease its post WWII pacifism - will lead to more sensible and humane behavior from NK.

In the Middle East, though more complex, the US will increasingly leave Israel to fend for its own interests insofar as those interests don't collide with American objectives. The US under the Bush Administration did not preclude Israel from bombing Syria or re-entering Gaza, for instance, to defend itself. It is less clear how the Obama Administration will handle Israeli actions, especially with respect to Iran. But I would not be surprised to see the current Administration have a hands off policy. I would imagine Israel would still be subject to an American veto over certain actions for which it seeks permission. But Netanhayu may elect not to ask for such permission if it feels compelled to act on Iran.

And the Georgian lesson should not be lost on the rest of Europe, especially Germany. If Russia intends to attempt to flex its regional oil and gas muscles, the US will not provide an explicit or even implicit shield. Even missile defense is up for discussion. The Germans - the "Europeans" - will have to fend for themselves.

It is a journey back in time as we march forward - one with various spheres of influence with leadership derived from the local hegemon with only occasional American imposition.

89 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:13am

re: #79 Occasional Reader

Excellent! We'll just focus on fighting the last war. What could possibly go wrong?

In this way, Obama is being very traditionally American.

90 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:22am

re: #79 Occasional Reader

Excellent! We'll just focus on fighting the last war. What could possibly go wrong?

Last war? we can't even admit to being in this war...

91 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:38am

re: #56 rightside

I guess... you should read the comments...f'ing hilarious! Moonbattery is alive and well!

No worries, the govt will care for them.

A Canadian gal who comes here for 3 months to my neighborhood let her kids drink wine and says they are really "good partiers".

Different priorities from mine for my kids, I must say...

92 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:40am

re: #85 Dianna

Declare is fascinating, though. He writes in the epilogue that he used Philby's daily schedule; nothing is allowed to happen in the book that he can't actually tie to an action of Kim Philby's.

It makes you think.

I know his name and some titles, but never read his books. Guess I'll take another look now.

93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:40am

a. I support any support of things he does right.
b. I support any non-support of the the things he gets wrong.

I sincerely hope there is more of a. than b. Up until now I am getting more of b. than a.

I hope that it changes.

94 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:45am

re: #55 Charles

Fascinating to watch LGF Spy, as the sleepers come out of the woodwork to down-ding my posts about the bow, and up-ding posts that insult me.

I've seen at least six people doing this in the last half hour, who have either 1) never commented, or 2) posted less than 10 comments in the last 4 years.

It's amusing in not-very-amusing way.

So, when are you going to implement your "use your account or lose it" policy?

95 revobob  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:46am

re: #42 YMedad

Does the George MacDonald Fraser "Flashman" series (I've read them all) count as "fantasy"?

Um.... yep!

96 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:43:55am

re: #76 avanti

That's the whole thrust of the change in defense spending. End production of 300 million dollar fighters designed for the cold war, and expand the Army and conventional weapons. Any idea how much body armor you can buy for the price of one F-22 ?
Defense spending will go up, not down, and the money will be spent for the type of wars we're fighting today.

Fighting insurgents calls for pinpoint close air support, and when the insurgents are being armed with Chinese, Pakistani, Iranian and North Korean munitions, you damn well better be using state of the art gear or you're dead.

97 rightside  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:00am

re: #86 itellu3times

Yes, run around in the best body armor money can buy, but have no weapons in your hands. Smart.

98 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:01am

re: #84 yma o hyd

Absolutely.
Think of the story of the little boy who called 'wolf' ....

ODS will get those who indulge in it labelled as unthinking hysterics, whose opinions are of no account.
Any valid criticism is thus devalued, a priori, because of prior ODS.

Not a good way of fighting successfulpolitical campaigns.

Anyone who's not pro-Obama is a racist anyway.

/maybe sarc tag, maybe not

99 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:03am

re: #76 avanti

Any idea how much body armor you can buy for the price of one F-22 ?

The reason our troops have had to fight "only" low-intensity wars is because we invested, over DECADES, in achieving conventional military dominance. You've a vet, avanti? I'm really surprised by the short-sightedness of your argument.

100 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #84 yma o hyd

Absolutely.
Think of the story of the little boy who called 'wolf' ....

ODS will get those who indulge in it labeled as unthinking hysterics, whose opinions are of no account.
Any valid criticism is thus devalued, a priori, because of prior ODS.

Not a good way of fighting successful political campaigns.

ODS is odious.

101 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:22am

re: #69 OldLineTexan

i.e., "conservatives" really had no need to criticize everything Bush did (although some of us rode his pony pretty hard on the border), because the MSM had that job covered deeper than P-38s in a Greenland ice pack.

where's Greenland?

102 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:28am

OT--Honeymoon's Over:

Obama's Comments Abroad "Dangerous & Unfortunate"--
WashingtonPost dynastic heir & Newsweek contributor Ms. Lally Weymouth,
daughter of WashingtonPost owner Katherine Graham.

(on Fox Cable News @ 2:35pm)

103 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:46am

re: #81 OldLineTexan

It is hellaciously expensive. I have heard of two flight anomalies, one ending in a crash, that I can remember. But I have not researched it.

One crashed way back in early testing and one crashed last week out at Edwards.

104 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:56am

re: #75 Dianna

Heck, no!

I've never - so far as I know - been on facebook. And I'm 45, and look it.

Oh, and, Afrocity? Be careful with the word "stalking", would you? Please?

105 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:57am

re: #86 itellu3times

Do you have any idea how much body armor you're going to NEED, if you don't have an F-22 when you need one?

Air superiority wins wars keeps ground troops alive.

106 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:02am

re: #101 albusteve

where's Greenland?

Where did you leave it last?

107 rightside  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:20am

re: #91 J.D.

wow. words fail me.

108 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:29am

re: #55 Charles

Fascinating to watch LGF Spy, as the sleepers come out of the woodwork to down-ding my posts about the bow, and up-ding posts that insult me.

I've seen at least six people doing this in the last half hour, who have either 1) never commented, or 2) posted less than 10 comments in the last 4 years.

It's amusing in not-very-amusing way.

Not telling you how to run your blog - but a little weeding out of non-posters who only down-ding you might perhaps not be amiss?

109 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:37am

re: #79 Occasional Reader

Excellent! We'll just focus on fighting the last war. What could possibly go wrong?

Exactly! We need to be prepared for a war with, say China for example, so that we're not in a position that our only remaining option is to go nuclear when we're getting our butts kicked by day three.

110 Dustyvet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:46am

re: #82 sattv4u2

I once dated a female that was interesting as a fence post!

No ,, wait ,, thats an insult to fence posts!

My ex came with baggage. which I later discovered was freight!


/S

111 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:47am

re: #76 avanti

That's the whole thrust of the change in defense spending. End production of 300 million dollar fighters designed for the cold war, and expand the Army and conventional weapons. Any idea how much body armor you can buy for the price of one F-22 ?
Defense spending will go up, not down, and the money will be spent for the type of wars we're fighting today.

Until the Chinese buy the latest Russian fighter technology, or the Russians export it to Iran or someplace. Lose air superiority, lose the war.

112 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:50am

re: #80 Kosh's Shadow

Many people think the F-22 isn't worth it, and that our enemies don't have planes that need such an expensive aircraft to fight.

Big mistake. Read this.

113 snowcrash  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #87 reine.de.tout
I remember extreme outrage when Laura Bush wore the head covering that had the little pink bows all over it.

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:46:06am

re: #55 Charles

Hundred posts? You get to ding.

Just sayin....

115 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:46:16am

re: #106 ConservatismNow!

Where did you leave it last?

gotta be here somewhere

116 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:46:33am

re: #91 J.D.

A Canadian gal who comes here for 3 months to my neighborhood let her kids drink wine and says they are really "good partiers".

Different priorities from mine for my kids, I must say...

I was proud of my daughter this weekend. She correctly employed a base of fire and a manuever element and correctly placed an airstrike for maximum effectiveness and was able to tell me why she placed it where she did. Daddy's little girl.

117 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:46:34am

re: #76 avanti

That's the whole thrust of the change in defense spending. End production of 300 million dollar fighters designed for the cold war, and expand the Army and conventional weapons. Any idea how much body armor you can buy for the price of one F-22 ?

We need both body armor and f-22s. We are making noises about canceling projects that are vital to not only projecting power but rudimentary defense.

Defense spending will go up, not down, and the money will be spent for the type of wars we're fighting today.

Nonsense. There is a need to contain and counter emerging threats, especially in the Pacific. Russia too. Obama is going to leave us flatfooted over the Taiwan Strait to provide kickbacks to Acorn, etc.

118 rightside  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:46:35am

re: #99 Occasional Reader

I'm curious as to his rate in the Navy. Could explain a lot.

119 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:46:54am

re: #73 J.D.

re: #51 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It seems as though there has been talk of cutting the funding for the F-22 for quite a while. I thought maybe there was something wrong with it...?

It was cut at the present level, then funding was added for a few more to keep the line open, now canceled.

120 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:47:03am
121 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:47:10am

re: #92 itellu3times

He's really brilliant in his concepts.

122 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:47:15am

re: #115 albusteve

gotta be here somewhere

Look in the freezer

123 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:47:46am

re: #75 Dianna

Heck, no!

I've never - so far as I know - been on facebook. And I'm 45, and look it.


A woman who admits her age.......I'm in love.

124 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:03am

Next-gen carrier launch system could be shelved

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

125 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:09am

re: #86 itellu3times

Do you have any idea how much body armor you're going to NEED, if you don't have an F-22 when you need one?

Exactly.

126 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:10am

I guess that's it for the F-22. Only 47 more to be built and production ends.

Pentagon to end F-22 program

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Monday, April 06, 2009

The F-22 Raptor fighter jet, assembled in Cobb County by 2,000 workers, will not be an ongoing enterprise for Lockheed Martin Corp., the Pentagon said Monday.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the radar-evading supersonic jet would not go beyond the 187 already planned. Lockheed has built 140 so far.

127 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:10am

re: #86 itellu3times

Do you have any idea how much body armor you're going to NEED, if you don't have an F-22 when you need one?

Yep. The last US serviceman to be killed by an enemy combat aircraft was in the Korean War. All the body armor in the world wouldn't have saved him. Since then, our people have been able to look up at the sky and smile, every time they heard an aircraft engine. It'll be a damn shame if we throw that away.

128 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:15am

re: #53 ArchangelMichael

That wasn't the point. Every president of the United States going back to JFK has been bowing (and basically blowing) the Saudis. It's phony outrage. Conservative didn't throw a temper tantrum when George Bush did it.

And here are 3 articles from Michelle Malkin's site, throwing Malkin-tantrums over Bush's relationship with Saudis.

Saying that conservatives were not on to Bush over this is just incorrect.

129 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:15am

re: #37 J.D.

He already has a helicopter that's new...to him.
The F-22, though, why exactly?

Big expensive program that some myopic people think is for fighting a war that can no longer happen. They think in terms of WWII fighter planes and not in terms of the myriad interconnections and support that is offered by a platform like the F-22. They don't understand the mission, so they see it as an expense to be removed.

On the bright side, some of that auxiliary capability can be picked up by the increase that was given to the F-35 program.

Four years of Obama is going to be hard on the Military and Defense contractors that support them.

130 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:25am

re: #110 Dustyvet

My ex came with baggage. which I later discovered was freight!


/S

I had a girlfriend who didn't just have issues, she had the complete leatherbound set

/s

131 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:26am

re: #97 rightside

Yes, run around in the best body armor money can buy, but have no weapons in your hands. Smart.

Body armor does little good if the enemy has air superiority.

Even if they don't, if we put in ground troops instead of air, because we have no air, we'll use up a lot of body armor, and lives. Just stating the obvious.

Sure, there's no immediate use for the F-22s, and I think and hope it's only a bridge to the UCAVs anyway, but we also have to keep the companies and infrastructure together. Expensive, yes, but necessary.

Hard call, and hard to discuss without knowing what else is in the pipeline.

132 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:29am

I am with Charles. I've got no place in my head for hatred, and I do not hate the President, no matter who that person shall be. And, for the record, I was not all that thrilled with W, either, though I voted for him twice.

Similarly, I do not like being hated on by my former idiotic Democrat friends who (for the last time) ever called me a racist, a Nazi, etc. I have no place in my life for them either, and made the necessary adjustments when it was appropriate to do so, and told them as much to their face. It was often uncomfortable to do so, but so be it.

I do, however, disagree with individual policies of this administration, too numerous to mention here, and when I disagree with them, I offer substantive reasons for the disagreement, not name-calling or knee-jerk ideology.

133 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:14am

re: #123 Big Steve

A woman who admits her age.......I'm in love.

Ya sure thats not just indigestion?

134 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:19am

re: #55 Charles

Who the heck is "Clio"? It is updinging some of the nastier comments in that thread.

135 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:31am

re: #38 rightside

Somehow your link is not out of place in a day of news items about the North Korean missile launch, assassination attempts, and NATO reneging on Afghanistan. The adults have abdicated parenting and left the spoiled children in charge.

136 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:48am

re: #133 sattv4u2

Ya sure thats not just indigestion?


boy you are riding me like a rented mule today!

137 baier  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:49am

I hope too that we can focus on real issues of policy, not bowing, middle names, and teleprompters. These are trifles.
Charles, get a note from Orson Scott Card too - I bet he reads your blog.

138 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:51am

re: #134 Honorary Yooper

Who WHAT the heck is "Clio"? It is updinging some of the nastier comments in that thread.

ftfy

139 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:51am

re: #87 reine.de.tout

I should have said "selective outrage" rather than "phony outrage" but in the case of the walking holding hands stuff, as far as I know that is an Arab way of two people of equal position or rank interacting. Bowing on the other hand is not, and the President of the United States should bow to no one other than the people of the United States collectively. I don't care if its Bush or Obama or whoever. I wont however get my panties in a wad as if FCBBHO is the first guy to have ever done this and he's setting some bad precident.

140 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:49:54am

re: #107 rightside

wow. words fail me.

I know that's not typical of everyone up there...still, I find not too much in common with her...

141 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:00am

re: #127 Occasional Reader

Yep. The last US serviceman to be killed by an enemy combat aircraft was in the Korean War. All the body armor in the world wouldn't have saved him. Since then, our people have been able to look up at the sky and smile, every time they heard an aircraft engine. It'll be a damn shame if we throw that away.

Oh and if anyone cares, the F-15 Eagle is wearing out and will be expensive to keep up as we go forward. And the F-16 production line has ceased to exist also.

142 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:00am

re: #124 Nevergiveup

Next-gen carrier launch system could be shelved

[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

That sounds like a major mistake. Come on, how expensive could it be?

143 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:11am

re: #86 itellu3times

Do you have any idea how much body armor you're going to NEED, if you don't have an F-22 when you need one?

The F 22 is not the type of aircraft you need fighting countries with a 3rd world air force. Even the Israelis have no interest in buying any 300 million dollar fighters.

144 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:13am

re: #123 Big Steve

A woman who admits her age.......I'm in love.

Thank you, of course.

145 rightside  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:13am

re: #135 Kenneth

I had to make sure it was not from the Onion™

146 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:16am

re: #129 CyanSnowHawk

I was just going to mention that the F-35 is not cancelled. It's alive and well. This does not mean that we won't have high-tech aircraft.

147 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:30am

re: #136 Big Steve

boy you are riding me like a rented mule today!

I like to get my monies worth!

148 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #129 CyanSnowHawk

Big expensive program that some myopic people think is for fighting a war that can no longer happen. They think in terms of WWII fighter planes and not in terms of the myriad interconnections and support that is offered by a platform like the F-22. They don't understand the mission, so they see it as an expense to be removed.

On the bright side, some of that auxiliary capability can be picked up by the increase that was given to the F-35 program.

Four years of Obama is going to be hard on the Military and Defense contractors that support them.

Which doesn't come on line till 2015 is I am not wrong?

149 FightingBack  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:41am

re: #38 rightside

What the hell? Any Canadian lizards heard of this?

I have patients who let the kids (age 4) decide if they want a Flu shot. Even if the result isn't critical, just giving such power to a toddler is going to end in a disastrous personality. I already have experience with some of them as teens. One was involved in a murder. Highly predictable from my angle.

150 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:42am

re: #60 Afrocity

Hey you are not the same Dianna that is stalking me on Facebook?
There is someone named Dianna that keeps contacting me asking to to be a friend. She says she is a republican and has no friends and wants to interact with me. I almost said yes because I thought it was you. Then I saw her pic and she looks 19 -ish. I asked her is she was a Daily Kos plant and she said she did not know was Kos was.

You have got to be kidding.

151 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:50:47am

re: #111 Kosh's Shadow

Until the Chinese buy the latest Russian fighter technology, or the Russians export it to Iran or someplace. Lose air superiority, lose the war.

Already done.

Iranian Su-30s.

Venezuelan Su-30s.

152 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:51:03am

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I was proud of my daughter this weekend. She correctly employed a base of fire and a manuever element and correctly placed an airstrike for maximum effectiveness and was able to tell me why she placed it where she did. Daddy's little girl.

LOL!
Congratulations!

And this was a game of what?

153 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:51:07am

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I was proud of my daughter this weekend. She correctly employed a base of fire and a manuever element and correctly placed an airstrike for maximum effectiveness and was able to tell me why she placed it where she did. Daddy's little girl.

* * * *
Like Caribou Barbie's dad must have done. Good parenting.

154 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:51:21am

The C-17 is going down too!

What?

F-22, C-17 Among Defense Cuts Proposed by Gates

By John Donnelly, CQ Staff

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates on Monday proposed an array of major changes to the Pentagon’s spending priorities, including an end to production of the F-22 fighter and the C-17 transport plane.

Both decisions are likely to be unpopular with lawmakers whose districts are home to production facilities for the aircraft.

155 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:51:25am

Wow. Nice mail? I just looked at that first book, and I think I'll order it.

156 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:51:41am

re: #143 avanti

The F 22 is not the type of aircraft you need fighting countries with a 3rd world air force. Even the Israelis have no interest in buying any 300 million dollar fighters.

Not sure about that, it's just that they can't afford it and the USA would not allow it anyway at this point.

157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:51:50am

re: #132 rawmuse

But, you have to admit, the whole Frankenstein-ish "OBAMA! BAD!" is a lot easier.

158 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:51:51am

re: #134 Honorary Yooper

Who the heck is "Clio"? It is updinging some of the nastier comments in that thread.

It is really weird to watch,isn't it? It's like turning over a rock and having the bugs scramble out.

159 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:52:22am

re: #152 J.D.

LOL!
Congratulations!

And this was a game of what?

Warhammer 40k

160 Frred  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:52:36am

'Ambassador Rice's husband, Ian Cameron, produces "This Week." ' Gee what an amazing coincidence. That wouldn't affect the show's content during the campaign last Fall, would it? A Clinton intern like George would be above that.

161 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:52:42am

re: #152 J.D.

LOL!
Congratulations!

And this was a game of what?

No game. The Air Force has instituted a work at home policy for drone pilots.

//

162 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:52:53am

re: #112 Occasional Reader

Big mistake. Read this.

I agree, which is why I said some people think we don't need the F-22.
I read AvWeek, and I know quite a bit about the latest Russian aircraft. They aren't deployed yet, but they can be put into production given the money.
Also, India has shown our Air Force something; they did a lot better than expected in war games against the US.
The F-35 won't be available for a while, and it isn't a true air superiority fighter.

163 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:53:04am

re: #150 Spare O'Lake

Relax, it will be all right.

164 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:53:06am

re: #157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

But, you have to admit, the whole Frankenstein-ish "OBAMA! BAD!" is a lot easier.

I was never big on atavism, and that is what that is.

165 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:53:33am

re: #143 avanti

The F 22 is not the type of aircraft you need fighting countries with a 3rd world air force. Even the Israelis have no interest in buying any 300 million dollar fighters.

So these third-world countries have no Chinese or Russian friends?

That's just sad (and unrealistic).

166 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:53:51am

re: #155 funky chicken

Wow. Nice mail? I just looked at that first book, and I think I'll order it.

Order lots of Tim Powers' stuff! He's great fun.

167 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:53:54am

re: #129 CyanSnowHawk

Four years of Obama is going to be hard on the Military and Defense contractors that support them.


I think we all pretty much had that figured...we all being those of us who didn't vote for him.

168 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:54:10am

re: #162 Kosh's Shadow

I agree, which is why I said some people think we don't need the F-22.
I read AvWeek, and I know quite a bit about the latest Russian aircraft. They aren't deployed yet, but they can be put into production given the money.
Also, India has shown our Air Force something; they did a lot better than expected in war games against the US.
The F-35 won't be available for a while, and it isn't a true air superiority fighter.

The F-35 may be a throw back to the bad old days when one plane was suppose to be a jack of all trades. That worries me.

169 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:54:28am

re: #154 Gus 802

The C-17 is going down too!

What?

F-22, C-17 Among Defense Cuts Proposed by Gates

"Both decisions are likely to be unpopular with lawmakers whose districts are home to production facilities for the aircraft."

Payback for being Red States

170 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:54:33am

re: #154 Gus 802

The C-17 is going down too!

What?

F-22, C-17 Among Defense Cuts Proposed by Gates

Well, according to avanti, we won't need a long-range ultra-capable cargo plane when we're fighting third-world countries. Our spoiled troops need to pack lightly.

/////////////////////////////////

171 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:08am

re: #143 avanti

The F 22 is not the type of aircraft you need fighting countries with a 3rd world air force. Even the Israelis have no interest in buying any 300 million dollar fighters.

Wrong, and wrong.

Oh, it looks that way at first glance, but read the other messages here, and think for a little bit.

Again, it may work out because the UCAVs are coming, and unless that's also cancelled, the F-35, but we'll be down to NOTHING unless we build a new generation of planes. Remember, part of the unit cost is the fact that so few are built, if we built 3,000 of them the way we used to, the unit cost wouldn't be so horrendous.

172 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:29am

re: #157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

But, you have to admit, the whole Frankenstein-ish "OBAMA! BAD!" is a lot easier.

You nailed it. People taking the easy way out in criticism, instead of focusing on substantial issues, which takes fact checking, and cohesive thought. So much easier to point out the ants while the bulls are jumping over the fence.

173 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:31am

re: #159 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Warhammer 40k

A videogame?

174 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #143 avanti

The F 22 is not the type of aircraft you need fighting countries with a 3rd world air force. Even the Israelis have no interest in buying any 300 million dollar fighters.

No, the Israelis want to buy F-22's, but Congress has banned exports.
Look it up.

175 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:42am

re: #170 OldLineTexan

Well, according to avanti, we won't need a long-range ultra-capable cargo plane when we're fighting third-world countries. Our spoiled troops need to pack lightly.

/////////////////////////////////

Well according to the last argument I had with Cognito the Air Force has plenty of heavy lift capability anyway?

176 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:48am

re: #143 avanti

Even the Israelis have no interest in buying any 300 million dollar fighters.


Bzzzzzt.

But thank you for playing.

177 scottishbuzzsaw  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:58am

re: #156 Nevergiveup

and the USA would not allow it anyway at this point.

Correct. F-22 is just ours, for good reason.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:55:59am

re: #154 Gus 802

BTW...heard on radio earlier and related....

Ninety Thousand Jobs.

179 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:56:11am

re: #161 DaddyG

No game. The Air Force has instituted a work at home policy for drone pilots.

//

Kewl!
I want to be one!

180 Dustyvet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:56:16am

re: #170 OldLineTexan

Well, according to avanti, we won't need a long-range ultra-capable cargo plane when we're fighting third-world countries. Our spoiled troops need to pack lightly.

/////////////////////////////////

Avanti the REMF...

181 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:56:17am

re: #170 OldLineTexan

Well, according to avanti, we won't need a long-range ultra-capable cargo plane when we're fighting third-world countries. Our spoiled troops need to pack lightly.

/////////////////////////////////

Yeah, all we need to fight 3rd World Countries is to replace the C-17 with a the C-47.

/////

182 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:56:21am

re: #163 Dianna

Relax, it will be all right.

My antennae have been up for a while.

183 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:56:56am

re: #176 Occasional Reader

Bzzzzzt.

But thank you for playing.

"Johnny ,,, tell him what we have for parting gifts"

"Well Biff, we have the home version of Whats My Mistake"

184 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:02am

re: #154 Gus 802

The C-17 is going down too!

What?

F-22, C-17 Among Defense Cuts Proposed by Gates

And we need the C-17 for the current wars!

185 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:20am

Who here is surprised, when President Obama is John F. Kerry's protege and both share the desire to reduce our country's defenses to "SPITBALLS" as another Democrat rightly pointed out in 2004.

SPITBALLS made from recycled thousand page bailout plans, and apologist speeches.

186 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:20am

re: #154 Gus 802

The C-17 is going down too!

Cargo isn't sexy enough.

Idiots. C-17 is always on the block. Should be tripling production.

187 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:21am

re: #169 DaddyG

Payback for being Red States

Yeah, and it's going to hit Boeing and Lockheed-Martin.

188 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:23am

re: #165 OldLineTexan

So these third-world countries have no Chinese or Russian friends?

That's just sad (and unrealistic).

You do know the air combat record of the 3rd world air forces against the US and Israel with Russian jets ? They either run, or die. If we were flying F 86's, it might be close to a fair fight.

189 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:34am

re: #173 J.D.

A videogame?

Tabletop, model units and terrain, tape measure and dice.

190 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:47am

re: #171 itellu3times

Its a good thing there is no threat from Russia or China...

Good thing they are still not churning out sukhoi's and selling them to Hugo Chavez...

We did this same thing under Carter.

191 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:48am

I cannot fathom an Iranian killing an American F-15 in a SU-30....just can't...I know these airframes are aging but has this design and avionics and all that been declared obsolete?....neither of these planes are usefull anymore?

192 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:58:07am

Good sci-fi reading:

Vernor Vinge
Neal Stephenson
Orson Scott Card.

Speaking of drawing lines, how do people distinguish sci-fi from fantasy? Are the "steampunk" stuff one or the other?

193 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:58:21am

re: #182 Spare O'Lake

My antennae have been up for a while.

You might want to call a doctor if they're up for more than four hours.

194 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:58:38am

re: #159 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Warhammer 40k

Has she learned how to beat an armored spearhead backed by heavy infantry weapons?

195 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:58:39am

re: #188 avanti

You do know the air combat record of the 3rd world air forces against the US and Israel with Russian jets ? They either run, or die. If we were flying F 86's, it might be close to a fair fight.

You haven't a clue.

196 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:58:49am

re: #169 DaddyG

re: #187 Gus 802

Yeah, and it's going to hit Boeing and Lockheed-Martin.

hey ,, it works both ways. I recall the carnage in Massachusetts after Nixon re-election ,,, defense contractors ,,,, army and navy bases!

SWWWWWOOOOOSSSHHHHH

197 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:58:53am

re: #186 itellu3times

Cargo isn't sexy enough.

Idiots. C-17 is always on the block. Should be tripling production.

Hate to think what's coming up the pike now. One can only wonder at this point.

198 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:58:56am

re: #182 Spare O'Lake

My antennae have been up for a while.

I don't view Afrocity as a problem, or doing anything wrong.

Though I admit that the thought of me as a stalker is hysterical.

199 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:59:08am

re: #189 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tabletop, model units and terrain, tape measure and dice.

Even better!

When my son was very little, he wanted me to be his butt-protector so he could win at Contra.

Not quite the same thing, I know...

200 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:59:27am

Man convicted in Creba killing 'cavalier,' says psychiatrist

TORONTO — A Toronto court is hearing the first person convicted in the killing of 15-year-old Jane Creba has a “cavalier” attitude toward her death.

A psychiatrist is the first to testify at the sentencing hearing of a 21-year-old man who can only be identified as JSR because he was a youth at the time of Jane's death.

JSR was convicted four months ago of second-degree murder, two counts of aggravated assault and five weapons charges.

Psychiatrist Lindley Bassarath conducted interviews with JSR in February and told court about several “concerning” statements the man made.

Dr. Bassarath says JSR was unable to acknowledge responsibility for the gunfight that led to Jane's death, saying: “How do they know she wouldn't have been hit by a car or something?”

Dr. Bassarath also says JSR, who is the father of two children, aged four and seven, told him he is keeping in contact with the mother so he can “grab” the kids when he is released.

The psychiatrist called JSR's statement about Jane's death “cavalier” and “callous” and added it was troubling he would admit to the statement about his children.

“It does concern me that he's capable of that, of that level of manipulation,” Dr. Bassarath told the court.

He's 21 & he's been in jail for the past 3 years. And he's father of two children, aged 4 and 7. During his trial, his mother accused the victim, Jane Creba, of racism (yes, that's right, racism) because she was white and didn't know how to act when a gunfight broke out on the street she was walking down. Jane Creba was killed when struck by a bullet during a gunfight between rival gangs on Boxing Day, 2005.

201 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:59:29am

re: #185 alegrias

Who here is surprised, when President Obama is John F. Kerry's protege and both share the desire to reduce our country's defenses to "SPITBALLS" as another Democrat rightly pointed out in 2004.

SPITBALLS made from recycled thousand page bailout plans, and apologist speeches.

And each spitball will have a personal apology in it.

203 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:59:33am

re: #175 Nevergiveup

Well according to the last argument I had with Cognito the Air Force has plenty of heavy lift capability anyway?

I'll say this, if they close down the C-17 line:

Get ready for more lurid tales of "$600 hammers".

They're pure bullshit, but it's what you'll hear. Aircraft with an active assembly line are more easily maintained than those that have been OOP for 10-30 years. Somewhere down the line, unless we really due elect to be more like an African "republic", we are going to need something repaired on the C-17 and the "hammer" stories will surface.

/btw, the "$600 hammer" of public lore was an actual part of a C-130 tail section kit, with contractual requirements, built on a line pulled out of deep mothballs and re-certified. Certifying aircraft parts is EXPENSIVE because if they don't work, people DIE.

204 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:59:35am

re: #187 Gus 802

Yeah, and it's going to hit Boeing and Lockheed-Martin.

Are Boeing and Lockheed union? ... If so, I am surprised that Obama would allow that to happen ... since he owes the unions so much ... does anyone know if they are union? ... unions were freaking that FedEx was threatening not to take 60 planes ... will they freak about the loss of military planes ... anybody know?

205 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:18pm

re: #194 ConservatismNow!

Has she learned how to beat an armored spearhead backed by heavy infantry weapons?

F-86s!

206 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:18pm

re: #162 Kosh's Shadow

I agree, which is why I said some people think we don't need the F-22.
I read AvWeek, and I know quite a bit about the latest Russian aircraft. They aren't deployed yet, but they can be put into production given the money.
Also, India has shown our Air Force something; they did a lot better than expected in war games against the US.
The F-35 won't be available for a while, and it isn't a true air superiority fighter.

F-22
F-35
Missile Defense.
Nuclear Arms.

Our enemies and those would challenge us consider not only our will to respond but our capacity and capability of our response.

We or capacity and capability to respond is not an order of magnitude greater than the adversary, the possibility of conflict is more likely not less.

History of conflicts 101 which the left ignores.

207 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:21pm

re: #204 JacksonTn

Are Boeing and Lockheed union? ... If so, I am surprised that Obama would allow that to happen ... since he owes the unions so much ... does anyone know if they are union? ... unions were freaking that FedEx was threatening not to take 60 planes ... will they freak about the loss of military planes ... anybody know?

Machinists union I think.

208 subsailor68  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:27pm

re: #184 Kosh's Shadow

And we need the C-17 for the current wars!

I think you're right - as this article (discussed on threads a few days ago) attests:

Military strained by Obama trip

If one presidential trip can put a strain on heavy lift capability, I would assume that's an argument for greater capacity, not less.

209 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:37pm

re: #204 JacksonTn

210 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:37pm

re: #192 godfrey

Good sci-fi reading:

Vernor Vinge
Neal Stephenson
Orson Scott Card.

Speaking of drawing lines, how do people distinguish sci-fi from fantasy? Are the "steampunk" stuff one or the other?

Treat "steampunk" as alternate history.

211 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:45pm

re: #168 Nevergiveup

The F-35 may be a throw back to the bad old days when one plane was suppose to be a jack of all trades. That worries me.

It seems very "F-16ish" to me. A good fighter but definitely not an air superiority fighter. I've also heard rumors the air force wants to replace the A-10 with it. That sounds completely asinine to me.

As a replacement for F-16s, AV-8s, and maybe even A-6s its fine, for the A-10, or for F-15s and F-18s, not so much...

212 Ben Hur  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:49pm

I'm sorry, but Obama bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia.

213 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:55pm

OT - File under the "What The Fuck Did You Expect" folder:

Buffet Among Biggest Recipients of Bailout Funds

A Bee examination of regulatory records shows that Buffett, the world's second-wealthiest person, also quietly has become a top beneficiary of the banking bailout he so vigorously advocated.

Just 28 companies received more than 90 percent of the funds so far disbursed to financial firms by the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP.

Buffett's holding company, Berkshire Hathaway Inc., did not directly receive any of that aid. But Berkshire is the largest shareholder of San Francisco-based Wells Fargo & Co., which got $25 billion – 91 percent of TARP funds invested in institutions headquartered in California.

Overall, Berkshire owns more than $13 billion of stock in the top recipients of TARP funds – including Goldman Sachs Group Inc., US Bancorp, American Express Co. and Bank of America Corp., all considered by analysts to be in deep trouble before the federal infusion. The more the bailout props up these financial companies, the more secure Berkshire's investments.

214 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:55pm

re: #188 avanti

You do know the air combat record of the 3rd world air forces against the US and Israel with Russian jets ? They either run, or die. If we were flying F 86's, it might be close to a fair fight.

And to keep it that way, we need to stay AHEAD. The Russians and Chinese don't sleep.

215 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:57pm

re: #191 albusteve

I cannot fathom an Iranian killing an American F-15 in a SU-30....just can't...I know these airframes are aging but has this design and avionics and all that been declared obsolete?....neither of these planes are usefull anymore?

I know nothing of air combat, but does not the weapons system(s) matter more than the air frame that fires it ? just asking.

216 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:01:21pm

re: #139 ArchangelMichael

I should have said "selective outrage" rather than "phony outrage" but in the case of the walking holding hands stuff, as far as I know that is an Arab way of two people of equal position or rank interacting. Bowing on the other hand is not, and the President of the United States should bow to no one other than the people of the United States collectively. I don't care if its Bush or Obama or whoever. I wont however get my panties in a wad as if FCBBHO is the first guy to have ever done this and he's setting some bad precident.

To me a signifacant part of the problem with Obama bowing is irony.
Anybody who mentioned this guys middle name during the campaign was pilloried. A guy named Barack HUSSEIN Obama looks very submissive bowing to King Abdullah.
He now freely uses his full name & has created a double standard.
Bush doing kiss kiss & holding hands with the guy was annoying but to me at least the bowing is a differnt dimension,.

217 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:01:22pm

re: #204 JacksonTn

Are Boeing and Lockheed union? ... If so, I am surprised that Obama would allow that to happen ... since he owes the unions so much ... does anyone know if they are union? ... unions were freaking that FedEx was threatening not to take 60 planes ... will they freak about the loss of military planes ... anybody know?

So let me get this right ,,, You're asking if they are union?

218 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:01:23pm

re: #200 Kenneth

Hmmm... More of that consentual parenting talked about on the last thread?

//

219 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:01:23pm

re: #188 avanti

You do know the air combat record of the 3rd world air forces against the US and Israel with Russian jets ? They either run, or die. If we were flying F 86's, it might be close to a fair fight.

THE RUSSIANS ARE EXPORTING Su-30's TO IRAN and CENTRAL AMERICA... these are very capable aircraft, China is trotting out next generation fighters as well.

220 J.D.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:01:38pm

re: #200 Kenneth

Dr. Bassarath says JSR was unable to acknowledge responsibility for the gunfight that led to Jane's death, saying: “How do they know she wouldn't have been hit by a car or something?”

He's 21 & he's been in jail for the past 3 years. And he's father of two children, aged 4 and 7. During his trial, his mother accused the victim, Jane Creba, of racism (yes, that's right, racism) because she was white and didn't know how to act when a gunfight broke out on the street she was walking down. Jane Creba was killed when struck by a bullet during a gunfight between rival gangs on Boxing Day, 2005.

Gee, I wonder where he got such crazy ideas?

221 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:01:44pm

re: #214 OldLineTexan

And to keep it that way, we need to stay AHEAD. The Russians and Chinese don't sleep.

Yeah, they have one of these.

222 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:02:09pm

re: #186 itellu3times

Cargo isn't sexy enough.

Idiots. C-17 is always on the block. Should be tripling production.

What? Why can't the army just walk?

///////////////

223 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:02:18pm

re: #217 sattv4u2

satt ... LOL ... I know ... I don't write great ...

224 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:02:22pm

re: #176 Occasional Reader

Bzzzzzt.

But thank you for playing.

A definite gotcha, but it looks like they want them without paying. If they wanted to buy a few dozen outright, that would keep the line open, and a win win deal.

225 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:02:55pm

re: #208 subsailor68

I think you're right - as this article (discussed on threads a few days ago) attests:

Military strained by Obama trip

If one presidential trip can put a strain on heavy lift capability, I would assume that's an argument for greater capacity, not less.

... or for fewer presidential trips ...


;-)

226 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:05pm

Charles .... Even though you tweaked a few of us yesterday, your integrity is not in question. In fact, the integrity of this site is what makes it so attractive. We are not so desperate that we need to embrace the fallacious theory that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Sometimes "the enemy of my enemy is ... my enemy."

227 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:05pm

re: #223 JacksonTn

satt ... LOL ... I know ... I don't write great ...

Thats okay ,,,,,type slower,,, I can't read fast

228 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:15pm

re: #198 Dianna

I don't view Afrocity as a problem, or doing anything wrong.

Though I admit that the thought of me as a stalker is hysterical.

Wouldst thou stalketh me in the dark?

////////

229 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:18pm

re: #143 avanti

The F 22 is not the type of aircraft you need fighting countries with a 3rd world air force.

You might want to ask John McCain about fighting "3rd world air forces".

Our easy dominance over such potential adversaries was earned with great sacrifice and a lot of long-term investment.

230 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:19pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

F-22 DOA

Gates to cut several major weapons programs

187 F-22s is quite a lot of them, actually. The USAF has a serious pilot shortage right now (husband is one), so ... yes, I'd rather see them replace every F-15 with an F-22.

But, sadly, nobody really "supports the troops" as much as I'd like, and perhaps I'm just used to it.

231 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:28pm

re: #224 avanti


A definite gotcha,

So stop pretending that you have a clue and reciting zero's talking points.

232 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:29pm

re: #222 jcm

What? Why can't the army just walk?

///////////////

Don't they go through swim qual?!

/////

233 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:33pm

re: #223 JacksonTn

satt ... LOL ... I know ... I don't write great ...

But it's usually very clear what you are saying.
All that's necessary.

234 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:35pm

re: #43 jorline

Sorry for the early OT.

Wasn't it the left that was bitching about the troops not having what they needed in Iraq?

Gates Calls for Cuts to High-Tech Weapons Programs

We'll be throw rocks soon.
*sigh*

That's 2,000 jobs in my county that will probably go away in 2011.

235 gringo69  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:37pm

re: #185 alegrias

Obama policy: Talk loud and carry a weak stick.

236 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:03:57pm

re: #212 Ben Hur

I'm sorry, but Obama bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia.

Just checking out his new sandals.

237 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:04:24pm

re: #228 OldLineTexan

Wouldst thou stalketh me in the dark?

////////

Nope. I've got a Male, and I kind-of like him.

238 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:04:54pm

re: #188 avanti

You do know the air combat record of the 3rd world air forces against the US and Israel with Russian jets ? They either run, or die. If we were flying F 86's, it might be close to a fair fight.

Read up on the early days of the air war in 'Nam. We didn't keep ahead and paid a price in air crews in 'Nam.

239 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:05:16pm

re: #211 ArchangelMichael

It seems very "F-16ish" to me. A good fighter but definitely not an air superiority fighter. I've also heard rumors the air force wants to replace the A-10 with it. That sounds completely asinine to me.

As a replacement for F-16s, AV-8s, and maybe even A-6s its fine, for the A-10, or for F-15s and F-18s, not so much...

If it has a stealth profile, good maintenance numbers, and can carry a bunch of smart missiles that do all the hard work, I think that's the basic idea.

Remember, the F-35 is modular, it's not exactly the same plane for all those roles. And the total F-35 production is (was?) scheduled for a large number of planes IIRC, between us and European allies.

240 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:05:20pm

re: #154 Gus 802

The C-17 is going down too!

What?

F-22, C-17 Among Defense Cuts Proposed by Gates

OMG, the C-17 cut is idiotic. Especially since we're sending more people into Afghanistan, and they have to be resupplied by air.

I had hoped the Japanese would buy a few F-22s to keep the assembly line open. Perhaps they will now before it's too late.

241 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:05:21pm

re: #151 Occasional Reader

Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

Why the US needs a new air superiority fighter.

242 subsailor68  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:05:30pm

re: #225 yma o hyd

... or for fewer presidential trips ...

;-)

Oh, I like the way you think!

;-)

243 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:05:53pm

re: #237 Dianna

;)

244 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:05:57pm

re: #215 brookly red

I know nothing of air combat, but does not the weapons system(s) matter more than the air frame that fires it ? just asking.

probably yes...that's one of the marvels of the Raptor I guess...as well as being practically unreal with it's air capabilities...they are just unbelievable but I wonder if the 15s and 16s have reached the end of the line...two really fine planes

245 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:06:12pm

re: #238 jcm

Read up on the early days of the air war in 'Nam. We didn't keep ahead and paid a price in air crews in 'Nam.

Wasn't that why Top Gun was formed? Just a question.

246 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:06:14pm

re: #188 avanti

You do know the air combat record of the 3rd world air forces against the US and Israel with Russian jets ? They either run, or die. If we were flying F 86's, it might be close to a fair fight.

The Navy's Topgun program was instituted because of, among other things, alarm over this.
North Vietnamese Aces
Many, although not all, of the NV claims are matched by US records.

247 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:06:32pm

re: #235 gringo69

Obama policy: Talk loud and carry a weak stick.

Obama policy: Just never shut the hell up and never shut the hell up.

248 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:06:41pm

re: #240 funky chicken

OMG, the C-17 cut is idiotic. Especially since we're sending more people into Afghanistan, and they have to be resupplied by air.

I had hoped the Japanese would buy a few F-22s to keep the assembly line open. Perhaps they will now before it's too late.

Obama will just loan the Army the bus.

249 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:06:42pm

re: #224 avanti

A definite gotcha, but it looks like they want them without paying. If they wanted to buy a few dozen outright, that would keep the line open, and a win win deal.

Yeah Israel always gets high tech shit free? What are you crazy? They might get a break or a loan to buy stuff but not free. That is why military loans and grants to Israel have always been good for the American economy.

250 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:06:54pm

re: #191 albusteve

I cannot fathom an Iranian killing an American F-15 in a SU-30....just can't...

Indians already "killed" American F-15s with Su-30s in war games back in 2004. It was a major wakeup call. Or should have been. Why wouldn't Iranians be able to do the same?

251 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:04pm

re: #215 brookly red

I know nothing of air combat, but does not the weapons system(s) matter more than the air frame that fires it ? just asking.

Both, plus the battlefield management, and most of all pilot competence.

252 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:04pm

re: #193 MandyManners

You might want to call a doctor if they're up for more than four hours.

LOL!

253 Dustyvet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:12pm

re: #242 subsailor68

Oh, I like the way you think!

;-)

Next trip we can send him on Submarine-1 with Sea Kittens as the crew...:)

254 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:33pm

re: #224 avanti

A definite gotcha, but it looks like they want them without paying. If they wanted to buy a few dozen outright, that would keep the line open, and a win win deal.

What would the difference be if they got the jets for "free" or paid for them with monies from US aid?
I'm sure the US gov't could work something out with the contractor and deduct that from our annual aid package

255 zombie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:34pm

I got mail too, just minutes ago -- yet another reasonable-ish letter from a Muslim visitor to the Mohammed Image Archive. That's about the third reasonable letter this year so far. A good trend -- it's gone from 100% hate mail and death threats to 99% hate mail and death threats and 1% friendly letters. Things are looking up! :

"From: Ali Almoufridji
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:55:49 +0200

Hello,

I have watched your entire archive and i have a question. Is this site build up against Islam or just an archive to keep a record of everything ?

Firstly, If this site is build up against Islam, I must tell you that you should learn not to discriminate. But as i beleive in freedom of speech i cannot tell you, like most of the muslims that have commented on your website, that i wish that you will die or that i will murder you. However, if this website is build up to keep a record, i am totally with this site myself because even me as a muslim i have learned a lot from this website, so if this was your intention, thank you a lot.

Lastly, i apologies to you in name of the Islam because of all the threat you have received from angry muslims and i hope that in the future the these muslims will learn how to solve this problem in a other way than violence as Islam is a religion of peace and a lot of muslims have understood that wrongly.

Ali Almoufridji

P.S. I would appreciate it if you would send me a response back on the question i asked."

256 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:35pm

re: #222 jcm

What? Why can't the army just walk?

///////////////

You can't use an Army if you can't deploy it... /leftist mindset at work

257 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:46pm

re: #218 DaddyG

Yup. You caught gist.

258 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:47pm

re: #194 ConservatismNow!

Has she learned how to beat an armored spearhead backed by heavy infantry weapons?

Working on that now, but her force of choice is leans heavily towards the mass assault for its best effect.

The best means of defense is attack, an' the best means of attack is a really really big one, right, with lots of boys an' dead big shooty things and what have ya.
- Drekzog, legendary Ork smartboy

259 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:07:57pm

re: #241 Kenneth

Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

Why the US needs a new air superiority fighter.

We have it...oh wait it just got shit canned...never mind.

260 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:08:18pm

re: #253 Dustyvet

Next trip we can send him on Submarine-1 with Sea Kittens as the crew...:)

teh sea kittehs respeckfuly deklien

261 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:08:24pm

re: #245 ConservatismNow!

Wasn't that why Top Gun was formed? Just a question.

Our kill ratio dropped to 4 to 1. We'd decided among other things that missiles would take care of everything and dropped guns and Air Combat Maneuvering. Top Gun was one response to teach ACM.

262 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:08:25pm

re: #241 Kenneth

Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

Why the US needs a new air superiority fighter.

It's a secret, but 0bama is replacing the F-22 with the Unicorn-22.
That has taken the supply of unicorns that were supposed to be shipped to citizens, which is why we haven't received ours.
/

263 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:09:02pm

re: #219 Boxy_brown

THE RUSSIANS ARE EXPORTING Su-30's TO IRAN and CENTRAL AMERICA... these are very capable aircraft, China is trotting out next generation fighters as well.

I'll defer to the experts on this, but do we need the F 22 to out fly the third world pilots in the su 30's ? I'm not Gates, but I assume he still thinks we can maintain air superiority with the original production run of F 22's and existing inventory of other fighters.
Do we have anything besides the F 22 that will fly against the Su 30 ?

264 subsailor68  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:09:10pm

re: #253 Dustyvet

Next trip we can send him on Submarine-1 with Sea Kittens as the crew...:)

The only flaw I can find in your plan is this: If he bumps his head on Marine 1, just think of what would happen on the compartment hatches on a submarine.

Ouch!

;-)

265 Idle Drifter  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:09:13pm

I believe we at LGF shouldn't resort to the tactics and antics of the BDS crowd in dealing with President Obama. We do have every right to thoughtful criticism and appraisal of every President's policies, actions, mistakes, and triumphs. I admit I have called President Obama a "Child-King" with his weak interactions with China, Russia, Hamas, Iran, and North Korea while seemingly too dismissive of the UK, Israel, and our other allies. Along with Pr. Obama's constant lamenting that he inherited a deficit that he aims to multiply through social programs all the while claiming he'll cut the deficit in half. I'd gladly eat my own words should Pr. Obama make a 180 to ensure the survival of America and her free market and capitalist ideals. I'm not going to hold my breath but I'm open to Pr. Obama changing policy for the better. After all, Pr. Bush was losing Iraq until he changed the direction of the War and placed a war winning strategy with General Petraeus. Iraq is on its way to being a better nation to its people and neighbors.

I can understand Charles not wanting his LGF to degrade into a cesspit of ramblings and rantings. We should dedicate ourselves to fighting the good fight with better class and intelligence sprinkled with humor against all comers, movers, and shackers. Call shenanigans where it's due. Ask yourselves this, do we want to be like the Daily Kos or Huffington Post?

266 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:09:46pm

re: #146 ConservatismNow!

I was just going to mention that the F-35 is not cancelled. It's alive and well. This does not mean that we won't have high-tech aircraft.

I am quite familiar with F-35. I've worked on that program. It's going to be a workhorse for air forces around the world.

267 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:09:49pm

re: #241 Kenneth

Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

Why the US needs a new air superiority fighter.

uh oh....bad news..they are onto us...that's exactly the skinny I was waitng for...the US should never allow a better plane to fly against us

268 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:10:16pm

Decent replacement for the C-17? That new Airbus tanker that the DOD chose but got tied up in Boeing tantrums. It's modular, so the planes are super versatile. The Brits love it.

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

269 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:10:19pm

Life is much nicer now that I use GAZE.

270 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:10:26pm

re: #261 jcm

Our kill ratio dropped to 4 to 1. We'd decided among other things that missiles would take care of everything and dropped guns and Air Combat Maneuvering. Top Gun was one response to teach ACM.

Yeah, and the gunless F-4 Phantom variants.

271 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:10:27pm

re: #257 Kenneth You are headed for a world of hurt if the first time you ever say no to a child is when they are in their late teens. Sad. The victims family must be apoplectic.

272 Dustyvet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:10:46pm

re: #264 subsailor68

The only flaw I can find in your plan is this: If he bumps his head on Marine 1, just think of what would happen on the compartment hatches on a submarine.

Ouch!

;-)

Watch your head Mr. President...CRASH!...never mind...:)

273 Unakite  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:11:03pm

re: #101 albusteve

where's Greenland?

Underneath all the ice. :)

274 morbiuswilters  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:11:04pm

Just wanted to say that I agree with Tim and appreciate the sanity this site brings to the table.

275 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:11:16pm

re: #269 MandyManners

Life is much nicer now that I use GAZE.

I say the same thing about acid!

276 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:11:37pm

re: #229 Occasional Reader

You might want to ask John McCain about fighting "3rd world air forces".

WASHINGTON, April 6 (Reuters) - U.S. Senator John McCain, the top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, on Monday threw his support behind Defense Department plans to refocus spending for key defense programs.

"I strongly support (Defense) Secretary (Robert) Gates' decision to restructure a number of major defense programs," McCain said in a statement.
"It has long been necessary to shift spending away from weapon systems plagued by scheduling and cost overruns to ones that strike the correct balance between the needs of our deployed forces and the requirements for meeting the emerging threats of tomorrow," he said.

277 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:12:10pm

re: #258 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Most of the people I play against are Space Marines or Sisters of Battle. Heavy infantry assault troops, y'know? One guy plays Tau, so he's got the firepower, but I just brush aside his Hammerheads and Broadsides. What can I say? I'm a treadhead at heart. I got into the game for the tanks.

278 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:12:13pm

re: #255 zombie

OMG - thats amazing!
Actually a rational e-mail - what is the world coming to?
I like it that that particular blog of yours seems to allow the first few rays of rationalty into one or to heads.
It is possible!

Wonderful, zombie! Worth all your work!

279 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:12:45pm

re: #27 tryptic67

So Obama didn't bow to Abdullah? That was just a fantasy? I'm very glad to know that I can't trust my own lying eyes.

The bow, while wrong, is just a blip on the radar compared to his economic policies. That's where the focus should be.

280 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:12:55pm

re: #215 brookly red

I know nothing of air combat, but does not the weapons system(s) matter more than the air frame that fires it ? just asking.

Not easy to retrofit new electronics suites into older airframes. The way systems interconnect/interact, you basically wind up having to replace every system and wire in the a/c. The Australians were trying to do this to bring their F/B-111's up to current technology. I think they gave up when the costs kept rising exponentially.

281 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:13:28pm

re: #48 opnion

I would like Obama to succeed doing the right things,

We have fallen into the Liberal and Media defined trap.

We ALL want Obama to succeed doing the right things. We want him too succeed keeping the county safe, for example.

When Limbaugh said he wanted him to fail, he didn't mean we want a successful enemy attack or 25% unemployment.

It meant simply that Obama has far Left and Socialist and appeasing policies many of us are against.

And in getting his way- in changing, if you will, America, into his image of what America should be, we I want him to fail.

Somehow we have allowed a legitimate expression of desiring bad politics to fail to become a tool allowing our opponents to beat us the head.

282 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:13:52pm

re: #276 avanti

WASHINGTON, April 6 (Reuters) - U.S. Senator John McCain, the top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, on Monday threw his support behind Defense Department plans to refocus spending for key defense programs.

"I strongly support (Defense) Secretary (Robert) Gates' decision to restructure a number of major defense programs," McCain said in a statement.
"It has long been necessary to shift spending away from weapon systems plagued by scheduling and cost overruns to ones that strike the correct balance between the needs of our deployed forces and the requirements for meeting the emerging threats of tomorrow," he said.

Any mention of SPECIFIC "systems" he talks about? If not, your point is ,,, welll ,,, pointless. I.E. unless McCain is specifically targeting this jet fighter, your post is useless

283 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:13:56pm

re: #263 avanti

I'm not Gates, but I assume he still thinks we can maintain air superiority with the original production run of F 22's

Read the Bowden article I linked to upthread ("The Last Ace", The Atlantic Monthly). Air superiority? Sure, we could maintain it, at least for a while. But remember; we had (mere) air superiority in Vietnam, and that did not prevent lots of US combat aircraft being killed in air-to-air fights, and the Hanoi Hilton.

Air dominance (which is what you've been alluding to)? Now that's a whole different ballgame.

284 nikis-knight  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:13:58pm

re: #192 godfrey

Good sci-fi reading:

Vernor Vinge
Neal Stephenson
Orson Scott Card.

Speaking of drawing lines, how do people distinguish sci-fi from fantasy? Are the "steampunk" stuff one or the other?

There's not really an accepted delineation, which is why you'll find it intermingled in the bookstores.

285 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:14:07pm

re: #280 Son of the Black Dog

so no new tricks for old dogs huh?

286 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:14:10pm

re: #280 Son of the Black Dog

Not easy to retrofit new electronics suites into older airframes. The way systems interconnect/interact, you basically wind up having to replace every system and wire in the a/c. The Australians were trying to do this to bring their F/B-111's up to current technology. I think they gave up when the costs kept rising exponentially.

Why don't they just use bluetooth and wi-fi? That would cut down on the wiring costs.

//

287 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:14:19pm

re: #276 avanti

WASHINGTON, April 6 (Reuters) - U.S. Senator John McCain, the top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, on Monday threw his support behind Defense Department plans to refocus spending for key defense programs.

"I strongly support (Defense) Secretary (Robert) Gates' decision to restructure a number of major defense programs," McCain said in a statement.
"It has long been necessary to shift spending away from weapon systems plagued by scheduling and cost overruns to ones that strike the correct balance between the needs of our deployed forces and the requirements for meeting the emerging threats of tomorrow," he said.

absolutely proves he favors the Raptor...nice catch

288 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:14:35pm

re: #267 albusteve

uh oh....bad news..they are onto us...that's exactly the skinny I was waitng for...the US should never allow a better plane to fly against us

But thats sooo unfair - surely we must give the other guy a fair chance?

///moonbat think off

289 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:15:22pm

re: #288 yma o hyd

But thats sooo unfair - surely we must give the other guy a fair chance?

///moonbat think off

I think we should resort to champions, like the ancient Greeks.

I like Obama's chances against the little Korean git.

290 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:15:35pm

re: #279 Wendya

Presidents have only the slightest influence on the economy.

I'm most worried by the emerging disaster in foreign policy.

291 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:15:37pm

re: #283 Occasional Reader

Read the Bowden article I linked to upthread ("The Last Ace", The Atlantic Monthly). Air superiority? Sure, we could maintain it, at least for a while. But remember; we had (mere) air superiority in Vietnam, and that did not prevent lots of US combat aircraft being killed in air-to-air fights, and the Hanoi Hilton.

Air dominance (which is what you've been alluding to)? Now that's a whole different ballgame.

Thanks for the reply, I admit I'm no expert, but I hope Gates and his advisers are.

292 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:15:39pm

Conspiracy theory of the day....
Geithner stress tests a “sham … a Potemkin Village”

File under "Probably not".

293 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:15:48pm

re: #268 funky chicken

Decent replacement for the C-17? That new Airbus tanker that the DOD chose but got tied up in Boeing tantrums. It's modular, so the planes are super versatile. The Brits love it.

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

It can't replace the C-17 as it is based on an airliner and needs larger and better runways. The C-17 is a true military transport, designed for less than ideal conditions.

BTW, the more I read about the tanker selection, the more I think it was rigged. One example is that Boeing was told cargo capacity was not important, but that was one of the items used to choose Airbus. Boeing would have gone with a different design had they been told it was important.

294 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:16:12pm

re: #263 avanti

I'll defer to the experts on this, but do we need the F 22 to out fly the third world pilots in the su 30's ?

We owe it to the people we are going to put in harms way to give them the very best equipment that we can. Beyond that the answer is still yes, the SU-30 is a new generation fighter that is very capable. Our F-15s are 40 years old and the airframes are starting to fail.


I'm not Gates, but I assume he still thinks we can maintain air superiority with the original production run of F 22's and existing inventory of other fighters.


No, ass backwards: They are assuming a geopolitical environment that will not ever exist. They are assuming that there will not be a threat from countries that have 1st world technologies because we have mr. charisma and the UN to use unicorn diplomacy to get everyone to unclench.

It is a great recipe for getting Americans killed.

295 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:16:35pm

re: #277 ConservatismNow!

Most of the people I play against are Space Marines or Sisters of Battle. Heavy infantry assault troops, y'know? One guy plays Tau, so he's got the firepower, but I just brush aside his Hammerheads and Broadsides. What can I say? I'm a treadhead at heart. I got into the game for the tanks.

Got SM (Salamander), CSM (Night Lords), IG (Cadians) and my daughter has started with Orks. Best response to an armored spearhead is Antitank weapons and indirect fire to bog them down, followed up with a flanking attack.

296 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:16:45pm

re: #163 Dianna

Relax, it will be all right.

Dianna, I knew it was not you. Like i said at first when I saw Dianna wants to be a friend, I said "cool" then I read her message and she sounded weird and the pic, I thought wow Dianna on LGF seems more mature.

297 tryptic67  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:16:49pm

# 55 ... Charles, if I am among that group, mea culpa. I feel strongly about this. The bow really got under my skin, particularly after what I saw as Obama ham-fisting it with the Queen, which I didn't expect after he so thoroughly messed up with Brown. To go make obeisance at a first meeting with Ibn Saud just rubbed me the wrong way; then to see it described as no big deal is further aggravating. If people want to say I suffer from Obama Derangement Syndrome, let 'em. It's inaccurate .... I've never descended to the level of a Kossack, DU'er, Firedoglaker, etc. But I am an opponent of Barack.

As far as LGF, I was so excited the day I got my account. But then it seems like you took a strong interest in creationism just about that time and I'm just not that interested in it. Sorry. What you did all those years I was just a reader, however, and the abuse you took, I will always respect. But I regret the old unity is fracturing; I suppose its inevitable. Your interests change/diverge and so do those of your readers.

But I am very content to argue me case that I think you've got it wrong on the bow. And I'm also very content to argue that we need to take some of the shine off Obama's apple ... otherwise he will have an entirely free hand to de-stabilize us domestically (with mammoth spending) and internationally (by appeasing enemies). We ought to be calling him out on every mistake ... otherwise, who else will? The media? The Left? Is that ODS? For the record I think Obama's actually been fairly correct on Iraq. But I feel the rest of his program is tragedy in the making.

So, are we saving our bullets? Do we get "credit" somehow for being even-handed with not pointing out errors committed by an uber partisan like Obama? I think the answer is a resounding "no".

I suppose I thought you'd agree that the bow was beyond the pale. You don't and, more to the point, strongly disagree with those who feel it's a very bad sign. Or the equivalent of Bush toadying (during the middle of the War on Terror and active operations in Iraq). Sorry you think it's not-very-amusing. What is amusing are those who would have you pull accounts for it, as if ideological purity is the standard for contributing to the success of a blog.

298 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:16:50pm

re: #289 OldLineTexan

I think we should resort to champions, like the ancient Greeks.

I like Obama's chances against the little Korean git.

But I think Hugo would have him for lunch.

299 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:16:51pm

re: #250 Occasional Reader

Indians already "killed" American F-15s with Su-30s in war games back in 2004. It was a major wakeup call. Or should have been. Why wouldn't Iranians be able to do the same?

Because some regimes don't want to train as religiously as others. Some nations put professionalism ahead of all else. Some like shiny new toys, but don't prepare and train for the intended missions. Others do.

Iran may like to boast about its new toys, but they've got serious kinks to work out, and their training isn't up to par (which isn't to say that they can't do so in short order, particularly with a weak US president giving away the farm).

The Indian government has been working diligently to upgrade their capabilities and testing/training against the US is part of that. It's also a way to test our own capabilities, and while our training is top notch, the rest of the world isn't sitting still either. The Russians are putting out capable equipment and the threat is growing, not lessening.

Obama cutting weapons systems may make sense if they're going to dedicate more money to other needed weapons programs.

Heck, the biggest stimulus package could have been achieved through a significant weapons buildup since guess who could benefit from the defense expenditures on planes and tanks and humvees - the unions via GM, Chrysler, GD, Boeing, and Lockheed. Instead, we get porkfest and a gutted military.

Worst of all is the idea that we're going to cut the number of active carriers still further. Time was, the US wouldn't do with less than 14 active carriers. Now we're facing 10? There are more threats, and more demands in more places around the planet, and Obama's looking to cut carrier task forces as a cost saving measure?

How many lives will be lost as a result of that decision. All you have to do is think back to the SE Asian quake/tsunami and know that it was US Navy carrier task forces that were on scene and providing aid faster than anyone else, and lives were saved through the hard work and dedication of our sailors and Marines. That would not be possible if we scale back our carrier numbers, and it means that enemies like China, who are announcing that they've got new weapons to attack carriers from standoff distances would have an even greater advantage.

I have a real bad feeling about all this.
Nice.

300 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:16:51pm

re: #191 albusteve

I cannot fathom an Iranian killing an American F-15 in a SU-30....just can't...I know these airframes are aging but has this design and avionics and all that been declared obsolete?....neither of these planes are usefull anymore?

Part of the problem is that fighters are getting more stealthy. The F-22 is the cream of the crop in stealth and the F-35 is not too shabby either. The Russians and others are behind on this but catching up. I believe that Sukhoi has prototypes in testing for jets that are alot closer to the F-22 in stealth capability. The F-15 looks like an F-15 on on radar. The F-22 looks like a bumblebee.

If the F-22 is killed its only a matter of time before we lose air superiority when Su-47s can shoot aging F-15s out of the sky from 200 miles away and the Eagle pilots never see whats coming.

301 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:17:07pm

re: #293 Kosh's Shadow

It can't replace the C-17 as it is based on an airliner and needs larger and better runways. The C-17 is a true military transport, designed for less than ideal conditions.

BTW, the more I read about the tanker selection, the more I think it was rigged. One example is that Boeing was told cargo capacity was not important, but that was one of the items used to choose Airbus. Boeing would have gone with a different design had they been told it was important.

And it's not STOL.

302 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:17:13pm
303 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:17:19pm

re: #289 OldLineTexan

I think we should resort to champions, like the ancient Greeks.

I like Obama's chances against the little Korean git.

right..Michelle will destroy that shit

304 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:17:35pm

Another lovely phenomenon that always happens when I don't toe the line on one issue or another -- I get a spike in email spam, as people go out and sign me up for every mailing list they can find that doesn't require a confirmation.

It's a type of petty harassment that I've learned to completely expect -- but not a problem, because Spam Sieve quickly learns to recognize and delete the spam.

305 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:17:41pm

re: #284 nikis-knight

There's not really an accepted delineation, which is why you'll find it intermingled in the bookstores.

Science fantasy can be defined as "having some discernible connection to recognized scientific fields, even if completely wild-eyed speculation (e.g., terraforming)." Fantasy can be defined as "involves magic or other supernatural forces."

306 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:18:33pm

re: #289 OldLineTexan

I think we should resort to champions, like the ancient Greeks.

I like Obama's chances against the little Korean git.

I'd prefer jousting, meself, like they did in the Middle Ages: war horses, knights in armour, lances, swords - and everybody gets to watch ...

Mind, neither PB0 nor that little Korean git would stand much of a chance in that ...

307 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:18:39pm

re: #290 Dianna

Presidents have only the slightest influence on the economy.

Not this President. The power grabs either already established or in process, the huge spending and bailout packages, government mortgage relief.....all of these things are not just a congress run amok, but led and championed by one hopey-changey guy in the White House.

308 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:18:42pm

Awesome! Tim Powers is great. The Stress of Her Regard is one of my favorite books.

309 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:18:47pm

re: #287 albusteve

absolutely proves he favors the Raptor...nice catch

How do you get that, he just announced he supports the Gates plan. Did he expand on that to oppose the F 22 ending ? Linky ?

310 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:18:49pm

re: #268 funky chicken

Decent replacement for the C-17? That new Airbus tanker that the DOD chose but got tied up in Boeing tantrums. It's modular, so the planes are super versatile. The Brits love it.

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

The C-17 is a heavy lift transport. The Boeing/Airbus tanker deal is a separate program; that's to provide long range refueling capabilities and replace the older KC-135 airframes.

311 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:19:01pm

re: #263 avanti

The US has 135 F-22s. How long do you think that inventory will last? Normal wear & tear, crashes and fatigue will take their toll. If the US does not have a replacement, the edge, whatever it is now, will fade. If not the F-22, then a replacement needs to be developed. The F-35 is an air strike plane, not an air superiority fighter.

312 nikis-knight  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:19:46pm

re: #255 zombie

That's a good letter, but I deplore the notion that discrimination is the same as prejudice. It's certainly not isolated to him, and is probably a line he is parroting from western culture anyway.
Judging something before you have experienced it or on superficial basis is foolish and immoral when applied to people.
Judging carefully and then seperating the good from the bad is the only rational response.

313 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:19:49pm

re: #296 Afrocity

Dianna, I knew it was not you. Like i said at first when I saw Dianna wants to be a friend, I said "cool" then I read her message and she sounded weird and the pic, I thought wow Dianna on LGF seems more mature.

Never hesitate to ask - I've been around forever, and I think most people here know me.

314 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:19:53pm

re: #290 Dianna

Presidents have only the slightest influence on the economy.

That is not correct as FDR, Jimmy Carter, Nixon, etc.. showed us.

315 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:19:56pm

re: #311 Kenneth

The US has 135 F-22s. How long do you think that inventory will last? Normal wear & tear, crashes and fatigue will take their toll. If the US does not have a replacement, the edge, whatever it is now, will fade. If not the F-22, then a replacement needs to be developed. The F-35 is an air strike plane, not an air superiority fighter.

Details.... Look at the shiny unicorn!

316 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:20:37pm

re: #304 Charles

You're managing to depress me. I don't understand the petty nastiness, and never have.

317 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:20:55pm

re: #301 Gus 802

And it's not STOL.

The -17 has a lot of capabilities you won't get in a commercial air frame. The -17 is a combat capable freight truck, the airbus is a passenger sedan.

318 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:20:57pm

re: #300 ArchangelMichael

If the F-22 is killed its only a matter of time before we lose air superiority when Su-47s can shoot aging F-15s out of the sky from 200 miles away and the Eagle pilots never see whats coming.

In Su-22 vs. F-15 war game matchups, typically the F-15 pilot only know that the fight has started when he's informed by ground control that he's already dead.

I'd rather our guys be in that "see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya" position, not the adversary.

319 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:21:17pm

re: #314 Wendya

You have a point, but...well, the office does not come with a magic wand.

We should be grateful for that.

320 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:21:45pm

re: #290 Dianna

May I inquire as to which foreign front? Iranian? Iraqi? Israeli? Russian? North Korean? Chinese? Mexican? (or all of the above?)

321 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:21:56pm
322 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:22:01pm

re: #300 ArchangelMichael

Part of the problem is that fighters are getting more stealthy. The F-22 is the cream of the crop in stealth and the F-35 is not too shabby either. The Russians and others are behind on this but catching up. I believe that Sukhoi has prototypes in testing for jets that are alot closer to the F-22 in stealth capability. The F-15 looks like an F-15 on on radar. The F-22 looks like a bumblebee.

If the F-22 is killed its only a matter of time before we lose air superiority when Su-47s can shoot aging F-15s out of the sky from 200 miles away and the Eagle pilots never see whats coming.

I'm not arguing against the Raptor...just thinking with my heart I guess, I'm certainly not up to speed with our potential rivals...the airplane is our baby and for that alone I don't want to see a better plane out there

323 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:22:34pm

re: #307 Russkilitlover

Plenty of enabling from the last administration (which panicked for reasons that seemed to make sense at the time) and from the congress.

To say nothing of various companies and unions.

I'm not a terribly happy person, right now.

324 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:22:36pm

re: #311 Kenneth

The US has 135 F-22s. How long do you think that inventory will last? Normal wear & tear, crashes and fatigue will take their toll. If the US does not have a replacement, the edge, whatever it is now, will fade. If not the F-22, then a replacement needs to be developed. The F-35 is an air strike plane, not an air superiority fighter.

Like I said not a expert, I just know the original production quota is being met, but the planes added by later will not be built.

325 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:22:41pm

re: #318 Occasional Reader

In Su-22 vs. F-15 war game matchups, typically the F-15 pilot only know that the fight has started when he's informed by ground control that he's already dead.

Gah! I meant F-22, not Su-22.

326 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:22:53pm

re: #293 Kosh's Shadow

It can't replace the C-17 as it is based on an airliner and needs larger and better runways. The C-17 is a true military transport, designed for less than ideal conditions.

BTW, the more I read about the tanker selection, the more I think it was rigged. One example is that Boeing was told cargo capacity was not important, but that was one of the items used to choose Airbus. Boeing would have gone with a different design had they been told it was important.

Cargo capacity is a big damned deal when it takes two C-17s to move your batallion vs one C-5, with both options being a week apart in ETA!

327 Dainn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:23:10pm

I'm a fan of fantasy and have never heard of this writer. Thanks for the tip.

I agree with Mr. Powers. It's refreshing to see posts by a conservative that points out the shallowness and stupidity of many of the most vocal conservatives shaping the Republican Party. This is one of the reasons I lurk on these forums daily. I stopped being a Republican years ago because of the lean toward the social agenda, while at the same time abandoning the core principles of the party (such as small government, free market principles). It's painful to see some of the discourse coming out of conservative mouths these days. If we succumb to petty issues like Nirthers, Troofers, Intelligent Design Creationists, and jumping on Obama for things Conservatives have done (bowing to the Saudis) we just make ourselves look foolish and alienate rational conservatives.

If the future of the Republican party is in politicians like Bobby Jindal, I fear many conservatives will stay out of the party. I doubt I could ever vote for a "leader of the free world" that believes the earth is only a few thousand years old.

Reality matters!

328 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:23:30pm

re: #320 J.S.

May I inquire as to which foreign front? Iranian? Iraqi? Israeli? Russian? North Korean? Chinese? Mexican? (or all of the above?)

All of the above. I'm not inclined to panic, but I'm not exactly feeling cheerful.

I know more about Russia, in the end, than I do about every other front. And Russia is going to be a huge problem.

329 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:23:46pm

re: #304 Charles

Apparently kooks and juveniles have way too much time on their hands. Truly unbelievable.

330 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:23:51pm

re: #235 gringo69

Obama policy: Talk loud and carry a weak stick.

* * *
Just words. Teleprompter words.

331 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:23:54pm

re: #317 jcm

The -17 has a lot of capabilities you won't get in a commercial air frame. The -17 is a combat capable freight truck, the airbus is a passenger sedan.

I know. The C-17 takes off like a "rocket ship," lands on a dime, and can go in reverse for long distances.

It's also an elephant transporter.

332 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:24:11pm

re: #297 tryptic67

So, are we saving our bullets? Do we get "credit" somehow for being even-handed with not pointing out errors committed by an uber partisan like Obama? I think the answer is a resounding "no".

I could not possibly care less who gives me credit for my stance, or who bashes me for it. I'm trying to write honestly, as I see things, and what the left or the right thinks about it matters less to me than a butterfly's fart.

I suppose I thought you'd agree that the bow was beyond the pale.

I don't agree with this at all. It's NOT beyond the pale, it's absolutely standard behavior for a US president.

Am I unhappy about it? Yes. I think I've made it exceedingly clear that I think ALL presidents who defer to the Saudis are disturbing and upsetting. But I'm not going to join the crowd and be a hypocrite about it, and claim that there's something different and horrible about it when Barack Obama bows.

333 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:24:21pm

re: #309 avanti

How do you get that, he just announced he supports the Gates plan. Did he expand on that to oppose the F 22 ending ? Linky ?

you are such a nimble thinker....

334 kansas  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:24:40pm

re: #72 Occasional Reader

FUCK.

Say goodbye to the era of American air dominance.


FIFY

335 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:24:44pm

Here is another very comprehensive source on air combat by all nations spanning decades. I suspect some here will find it fascinating as I do.
By something called The Air Combat Information Group

336 Shanimal1918  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:24:45pm

Nobody said that anyone and everyone has to agree with everything Charles posts, and all of his opinions. These are probably the same morons that ruined the lounge for everybody.

Thank you Charles, for providing this forum. Too bad there isn't a good bozo filter for e-mail.

337 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:24:51pm

re: #285 brookly red

so no new tricks for old dogs huh?

Only the B-52.

338 scottishbuzzsaw  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #324 avanti

Like I said not a expert

There are too many non-experts deciding what our military needs.

339 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #328 Dianna

Do you get the feeling they are missing their role as a Superpower? I sure do. Flexing their muscles now with their oil and gas reserves.

340 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:25:50pm

re: #235 gringo69

Obama policy: Talk loud and carry a weak stick.

* * * *
Just Words. And don't think we're not keeping score, brother.

And Rahm Emanuel is his secret Chicago weapon.

341 JustABill  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:25:51pm

Charles is there any data available in terms of total posts, total updings, total downdings over any reasonable time frame. I am trying to figure out how my Karma/Post ratio stacks up...

342 nikis-knight  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:25:53pm

re: #305 Dianna

Science fantasy can be defined as "having some discernible connection to recognized scientific fields, even if completely wild-eyed speculation (e.g., terraforming)." Fantasy can be defined as "involves magic or other supernatural forces."


Yeah, I've read lots of definitions, but there isn't really an industry standard, so to speak; I think it's based on feel.
For example, Card's Treason or Wyrms or Homecoming Series feel like nearly equal mixtures of each.

343 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:25:56pm

re: #331 Gus 802

I know. The C-17 takes off like a "rocket ship," lands on a dime, and can go in reverse for long distances.

It's also an elephant transporter.

McChord AFB has a wing, my MIL's house is under the flight path. Just love watching them.

344 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:25:58pm

re: #328 Dianna

I know more about Russia, in the end, than I do about every other front. And Russia has always been huge problem.

FTFY

345 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:26:03pm
346 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:26:07pm

re: #324 avanti

Gates made this announcement, but I would have to think Obama directed him to do so. The US budget is stretched to the limits and then some, so something had to go. In my opinion, that something should have been a whole raft of stimulus spending on pork. The high tech industries supported by the F-22 production could have benefited by continued "stimulus" spending.

347 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #338 scottishbuzzsaw

There are too many non-experts deciding what our military needs.

succinct...my type of post

348 zombie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:26:38pm

I think the whole argument about whether we want Obama to "fail" or "succeed" is a false dilemma.

The question is, "fail" or "succeed" at what?

One could argue that Stalin "succeeded" in his goal of turning the Soviet Union into a police state. Castro "succeeded" at overthrowing the Cuban government. Hitler nearly "succeeded" at implementing the Final Solution. Should we congratulate them all for succeeding?

Before I start rooting for Obama to "succeed," I'd need to know what goals he has.

- If he simply wants to rescue the economy and get American capitalism back on its feet, then yes, I want him to succeed.

- If, however, he wants to use the economic crisis as a justification to implement socialist policies which will cripple this country for decades, then no, I don't want him to succeed.

- If he wants to use some sort of brilliantly clever self-deprecating diplomacy to maintain America's international leadership position, then yes, I want him to succeed.

- If, however, he consciously or unconsciously has been so indoctrinated with anti-American worldview that he plans to "take America down a notch" because we deserve a slapdown for being such an evil country, then no, I don't want him to succeed.

Etc.

The "succeed or fail" question is a meaningless question, and a misdirection. We're arguing over nothing.

349 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:26:58pm

re: #328 Dianna

I know more about Russia, in the end, than I do about every other front. And Russia is going to be a huge problem.

Don't be silly! That's outmoded Cold War thinking! The only kind of enemy we'll have to face in the future will be "insurgents" waving around a few AK-47s!

Sorry... what's that?

[whisper whisper Georgia whisper whisper]

Um... never mind.

350 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:26:59pm

re: #326 ConservatismNow!

Cargo capacity is a big damned deal when it takes two C-17s to move your batallion vs one C-5, with both options being a week apart in ETA!

The cargo capacity was for the tanker; the original spec didn't include much, if any, cargo in addition to the fuel.
The C-5 has its own set of problems.

351 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:27:10pm

re: #339 VioletTiger

Do you get the feeling they are missing their role as a Superpower? I sure do. Flexing their muscles now with their oil and gas reserves.

Not a surprise, given the mind-set inculcated by their education system. Particularly for someone like Putin, who was KGB.

Active, aggressive paranoia is an asset to a Russian.

352 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:27:56pm

David Frum's recent CNN interview was spot on, IMO.
Obama's trip was a complete zero.
Bow or no bow.

353 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:28:07pm

re: #324 avanti

Like I said not a expert, I just know the original production quota is being met, but the planes added by later will not be built.

The original production quota was about 600-700 planes and over time they kept getting cut back to the pitiful level we have today. Don't sugar coat it!

354 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:28:09pm

re: #281 Opinionated

I take your point,. it is a matter of semantics. I have read the entire quote from Rush on not wanting Obama to succeed. Taken out of context it sounds awful. He was merely saying that he does not want him to take over the economy.
I agree that criticism of Obama should not be childish & unfair, but he needs to be criticised & a little humor is ok

355 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:28:15pm

re: #350 Kosh's Shadow

The cargo capacity was for the tanker; the original spec didn't include much, if any, cargo in addition to the fuel.
The C-5 has its own set of problems.

Yeah, like making me sick when they do a damn combat takeoff. I nearly lost my lunch.

356 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:28:19pm

re: #341 JustABill

Charles is there any data available in terms of total posts, total updings, total downdings over any reasonable time frame. I am trying to figure out how my Karma/Post ratio stacks up...

Nobody told us there was going to be math!

//

357 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:28:31pm

re: #332 Charles

Why do you stubournly refuse to contract ODS? Come, drink the Kool-Aide. Resistance is futile.

/

358 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:28:40pm

re: #346 Kenneth

In my opinion, that something should have been a whole raft of stimulus spending on pork. The high tech industries supported by the F-22 production could have benefited by continued "stimulus" spending.

Bingo.

No, I'm not supporting stimulus spending on Bingo... I mean, spot on.

359 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:28:42pm

re: #342 nikis-knight

Yeah, I've read lots of definitions, but there isn't really an industry standard, so to speak; I think it's based on feel.
For example, Card's Treason or Wyrms or Homecoming Series feel like nearly equal mixtures of each.

That's accurate, because there is crossover. I tend to read things that are one or the other, barring my fondness for certain authors, Tim Powers being one.

360 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:29:17pm

re: #346 Kenneth

Gates made this announcement, but I would have to think Obama directed him to do so. The US budget is stretched to the limits and then some, so something had to go. In my opinion, that something should have been a whole raft of stimulus spending on pork. The high tech industries supported by the F-22 production could have benefited by continued "stimulus" spending.

Kennith '2012, (I for one welcome our new Canadian overloards.. )

361 Dainn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:29:52pm

re: #348 zombie

The "succeed or fail" question is a meaningless question, and a misdirection. We're arguing over nothing.

This is how I look at it. "Do you want the president to succeed" is the wrong question. Succeed at what?

362 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:30:07pm

do we have another tanker yet?....any scuttlebutt on that fiasco?

363 zombie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:30:23pm

re: #304 Charles

Another lovely phenomenon that always happens when I don't toe the line on one issue or another -- I get a spike in email spam, as people go out and sign me up for every mailing list they can find that doesn't require a confirmation.

It's a type of petty harassment that I've learned to completely expect -- but not a problem, because Spam Sieve quickly learns to recognize and delete the spam.

I'm now a member of at least 50 different Muslim dating sites. "Muslimahs around the world seek marriage!" I also get daily newsletters from mosques in South Africa, India, Egypt, Turkey, Netherlands and England. I think I've been signed up for half the Islamic email spam sites on the Net.

364 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:30:38pm

And speaking of which; I was strolling down Connecticut Ave. yesterday when two F-16s suddenly shot across the DC sky. Everyone on the street stopped and gaped. It was quite awesome. (Although it did make me a little nervous, wondering if "something" was up.)

365 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:30:56pm

re: #355 ConservatismNow!

Yeah, like making me sick when they do a damn combat takeoff. I nearly lost my lunch.

You didn't have your helmet?

/;-P

366 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:30:58pm

re: #363 zombie

They are trying to "educate" you, zombie.

367 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:31:33pm

I need a break, then I'm going to go back to work.

This was lovely, though.

368 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:31:35pm

re: #361 Dainn

This is how I look at it. "Do you want the president to succeed" is the wrong question. Succeed at what?

I want America to grow, prosper and get stronger. I dont think that will happen with Obama at the helm.

369 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:31:49pm

re: #364 Occasional Reader

And speaking of which; I was strolling down Connecticut Ave. yesterday when two F-16s suddenly shot across the DC sky. Everyone on the street stopped and gaped. It was quite awesome. (Although it did make me a little nervous, wondering if "something" was up.)

I am surprised you saw them since now a days due to budget cut backs to much training is being done in simulators rather than in the sky.

370 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:31:54pm

re: #362 albusteve

They're going to redo the tanker bid because of problems each time.

371 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:32:17pm

re: #349 Occasional Reader

Don't be silly! That's outmoded Cold War thinking! The only kind of enemy we'll have to face in the future will be "insurgents" waving around a few AK-47s!

Sorry... what's that?

[whisper whisper Georgia whisper whisper]

Um... never mind.

You're missing the point. Obama will not involve the US in a silly war over an insignificant, backwater country like Georgia, or Ukraine. Or Israel. Or Latvia or Poland. Or Germany. Or France. Or the UK. Or South Korea. Or Japan. Or Taiwan. He has to look after US interests after all.

372 nikis-knight  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:32:32pm

re: #363 zombie

I'm now a member of at least 50 different Muslim dating sites. "Muslimahs around the world seek marriage!" I also get daily newsletters from mosques in South Africa, India, Egypt, Turkey, Netherlands and England. I think I've been signed up for half the Islamic email spam sites on the Net.


Muslim dating services... so I suppose they match young Islamic youths with the father of fetching young Islamic women to discuss the bride price and virginity testing?

373 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:32:36pm

re: #368 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I want America to grow, prosper and get stronger. I dont think that will happen with Obama at the helm.

I feel alot weaker than yesterday already!

374 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:32:38pm

re: #368 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I want America to grow, prosper and get stronger. I dont think that will happen with Obama at the helm.

and neither does he...

375 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:33:15pm

re: #360 Boxy_brown

Kennith '2012, (I for one welcome our new Canadian overloards.. )

Hey, the troofers would have a field day on my Nirth Cert!

376 jorline  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:33:23pm

re: #269 MandyManners

Life is much nicer now that I use GAZE.

Mandy, watch the end of the ad...Ultimate Gaze.

377 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:33:23pm

re: #332 Charles

I don't agree with this at all. It's NOT beyond the pale, it's absolutely standard behavior for a US president.

Am I unhappy about it? Yes. I think I've made it exceedingly clear that I think ALL presidents who defer to the Saudis are disturbing and upsetting. But I'm not going to join the crowd and be a hypocrite about it, and claim that there's something different and horrible about it when Barack Obama bows.

Sometimes I wonder if you are the Roi's clone.
Other times I think it's Killgore.
Omigosh - more proof that you and Killgore are actually the same person?

378 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:33:43pm
379 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:33:50pm

re: #370 lawhawk

They're going to redo the tanker bid because of problems each time.

Meanwhile our strategic security depends on 45+ year old airframes. The newest KC-135 was delivered in 1965.

380 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:34:28pm

re: #362 albusteve

do we have another tanker yet?....any scuttlebutt on that fiasco?

They're still reviewing it. I think there is going to be another competition, this time such that the decision has to be based on the criteria stated at the outset.

BTW, I think some of these cases of the US buying European weapons systems are due to political pressure. Funny how that doesn't work for the Europeans. The A-400 military transport is way late, largely because they wouldn't buy an engine from Pratt and Whitney Canada, and designed their own, which still isn't ready long after the aircraft was supposed to be in production. Thus, Britain may buy C-17's if they can get out of the A-400 contract.

381 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:34:42pm

re: #378 buzzsawmonkey

by Fu-Tile, Ltd

Another Chinese import?!

382 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #364 Occasional Reader

And speaking of which; I was strolling down Connecticut Ave. yesterday when two F-16s suddenly shot across the DC sky. Everyone on the street stopped and gaped. It was quite awesome. (Although it did make me a little nervous, wondering if "something" was up.)

a few weeks ago, and a coupla times a year two or three will float right over me headed down the river escorting a C 130 or whatever...slow and loud, headed for Kirtland AFB....we got the Ospreys out here too....those things are really neat

383 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:35:07pm

re: #363 zombie

I'm now a member of at least 50 different Muslim dating sites. "Muslimahs around the world seek marriage!" I also get daily newsletters from mosques in South Africa, India, Egypt, Turkey, Netherlands and England. I think I've been signed up for half the Islamic email spam sites on the Net.

They're just trying to get your goat.

384 Dainn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:35:13pm

re: #368 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I want America to grow, prosper and get stronger. I dont think that will happen with Obama at the helm.

After the election I took a wait and see approach. I've seen enough, I think. Obama's world view wasn't an act to get elected, he seems to believe that America would benifit from a dose of European Socialism. And the conservatives in the legislature are too impotent to stop him.

Change.

385 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:35:13pm
386 spudly  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:35:15pm

Charles, I actually didn't watch the Obama bow until a couple minutes ago. I saw your "Bush bowed too" post, and didn't watch that vid, just looked that the still—until a few minutes ago.

I'm not a conspiracy nut, I never bought the Birth Certificate nonsense, or "Obama is a Muslim," etc, ad nauseum. I hate ID creationism, and am happy to see a voice of secular conservatism.

That said, the "Bush bowed too" headline is flat out wrong. He clearly did not bow, and Obama did. You can argue that Obama did not know that such a bow infers inferiority, and instead thought it was just being polite. I'd buy that, actually. He was likely just trying to be "culturally sensitive." I wear proper clothes when visiting Islamic countries, or Buddhist temples in Asia, etc., myself. He should have had better prep by his "people" that do such work, clearly.

That doesn't make everything you say wrong, it doesn't make other salient points you made regarding US obsequiousness to the Saudi, et al, invalid. I also don't think that Obama bowing is all that important other than showing how out of his league he is—I attribute it to error, not intention.

The Bush bowed, too headline is wrong, though. Argue that he figuratively bowed via policy all you like, I won't argue, but he without question did not literally bow.

387 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:35:40pm

re: #352 Spare O'Lake

David Frum's recent CNN interview was spot on, IMO.
Obama's trip was a complete zero.
Bow or no bow.

His humility is not so much self-criticism, it's criticism of George Bush. But why shouldn't he join in that sport, too?

Heh. Nailed that one, he did.

388 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:35:49pm

re: #370 lawhawk

They're going to redo the tanker bid because of problems each time.

well that will take a coupla more years...the paper heads will make some extra cash....

389 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:35:58pm

re: #332 Charles

I don't agree with this at all. It's NOT beyond the pale, it's absolutely standard behavior for a US president.

Am I unhappy about it? Yes. I think I've made it exceedingly clear that I think ALL presidents who defer to the Saudis are disturbing and upsetting. But I'm not going to join the crowd and be a fucking hypocrite about it, and claim that there's something different and horrible about it when Barack Obama bows.

I respect you and this blog Charles and am honored to have a place here. I do understand your point about hypocrisy and agree that no US President should bow to the Saudi's, or anyone else for that matter. The US flag dips for no nation.
The reason that I have particular heartburn with Obama is not because of the act in isolation but in light of his overall philsophy, which I consider antithetical to everything I believe this country stands for. His consorting with radical , unrepentant terrorists (Ayers). His affinity for America bashing preachers (Wright). His participation in and embrace of Alinskyite politics. it is all these, in aggregate that put the bow in a different light for me.
I would have intensely disliked seeing Presidents Reagan or Bush bow, but I never questioned whether they had America's best interests at heart.

390 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:36:22pm

Wait til you see footage of Pres. Obama walking behind goose-stepping Turks in WWII German helmets painted white, before laying a wreath somewhere in Turkey.

Uggh! Didn't someone tell Turkey goose-stepping troops are gross?

391 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:36:31pm

re: #379 jcm

Meanwhile our strategic security depends on 45+ year old airframes. The newest KC-135 was delivered in 1965.

Yes, they are similar to the 707 in design. See any of those flying?
(BTW, blame McCain for part of this.)

392 Pigtown Water Dog  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:37:02pm

OMG!11!1 I love Tim Powers!
I got money back from my taxes (yes, I know...it's really my money)!1!

Beer for everyone, no matter what time it is where you are! elebendy!

No matter what, I still get up every day and thank GOD I'm an American! That little twerp isn't going to spoil that for me.

393 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:37:10pm

re: #382 albusteve

we got the Ospreys out here too

Huh, I've never seen one in person.

I have to say, though... that's a weapons system about which I remain skeptical, in terms of cost versus benefit.

394 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:37:21pm

re: #325 Occasional Reader

I figured that's what you meant since the Su-22 had it's heyday in the 1960s. I'm sure an F-15 could fly circles around them, dive inverted over the top and have the back seater take a polaroid of the Su-22 pilot ala Topgun. Not to mention shoot them out of the sky from almost 100 miles away with AIM-120s.

395 zombie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:37:24pm

re: #372 nikis-knight

Muslim dating services... so I suppose they match young Islamic youths with the father of fetching young Islamic women to discuss the bride price and virginity testing?

No -- it seems in most cases that the women are signing up on their own.

Most of the dating sites are from the "non-repressive" Muslim nations in which women has a smidgen of independence -- Indonesia, Turkey, India, even Iran. There are a lot fo them in England too.

In fact, because of the very restrictive Islamic rules and social codes against "mingling" and "consorting" with men, there are a LOT of lonely Muslim women out there. At least if my dating sites are anything to go by.

And it's not just teens and brides-to-be: a lot of divorcees, widows, middle-aged women, etc.

396 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:37:56pm

re: #380 Kosh's Shadow

They're still reviewing it. I think there is going to be another competition, this time such that the decision has to be based on the criteria stated at the outset.

BTW, I think some of these cases of the US buying European weapons systems are due to political pressure. Funny how that doesn't work for the Europeans. The A-400 military transport is way late, largely because they wouldn't buy an engine from Pratt and Whitney Canada, and designed their own, which still isn't ready long after the aircraft was supposed to be in production. Thus, Britain may buy C-17's if they can get out of the A-400 contract.


Not so much due to 'European pressure', but to the aim of having all NATO member states using the same equipment wherever possible.
Has been going on for years.

397 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:38:09pm

re: #236 DaddyG

Just checking out his new sandals.

Mohammed Blahnics

398 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:38:18pm

US gives 50,000 dlrs for quake-hit Italy

Meanwhile, we sent the Palis $300 million to help them kill more Israelis.

399 spudly  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:38:22pm

albusteve, they fly VFR along Tramway, often, too, I see them from my place in the foothills all the time. :)

400 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:38:27pm

re: #315 Boxy_brown

Details.... Look at the shiny unicorn!

And the Bidenfire unguided missile.

401 opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:38:40pm

Roger Cohen, NY Times columnist, is a really bad guy.

Almost every single one of his columns week after week begs Obama to screw Israel. For Iran. For Hamas. For Turkey.

Turkey Wants U.S. ‘Balance’

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

402 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:38:50pm

re: #383 Kosh's Shadow

They're just trying to get your goat.

* * * *
Speaking of which, PETA could get the goat contract to resupply our growing troops in Afghanistan.

Don't laugh--goats don't pollute, they're recyclable and culturally sensitive. Why not the best for our troops?

403 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:39:14pm

re: #352 Spare O'Lake

David Frum's recent CNN interview was spot on, IMO.
Obama's trip was a complete zero.
Bow or no bow.

I'm surprised CNN didn't cut the interview mid-feed.

Frum: But substantively, he went there with two "asks." He went there to ask for European governments to run up their deficits in order to do fiscal stimulus to match America's and for a big contribution of troops to Afghanistan. And he got neither. He got zero.

Costello: Some might say, David, that this is a first trip for a new president. He's new in office. And what can you expect from a first time?

Frum: I would say that people who say that don't understand how these trips work. Barack Obama will never be more powerful than he is right now. From here on, it's all downhill. An American president's first request is always going to be his most honored request. So, if he is not able to get what he wants financially or in terms of troops now, he's not going do better six months from now or a year from now. He's going to do worse.

404 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:39:26pm

re: #385 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, those young harem-scarums.

Should one bow when entering the harem? What is the correct Harem Protocol?

405 Tazzerman  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:40:04pm

He's telling it like it is... I could NOT agree with him more..

406 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:40:43pm
407 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:41:15pm

re: #402 alegrias

* * * *
Speaking of which, PETA could get the goat contract to resupply our growing troops in Afghanistan.

Don't laugh--goats don't pollute, they're recyclable and culturally sensitive. Why not the best for our troops?


/ehhh, keep your culturally sensitive goats to your self please...

408 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:41:28pm

re: #386 spudly

That said, the "Bush bowed too" headline is flat out wrong. He clearly did not bow, and Obama did.

Yes, he did bow, very formally. He put both hands at his sides, and bowed in deference as Abdullah hung a freaking medal around his neck. It's ridiculous to claim that this is somehow "better" than what Barack Obama did.

409 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:41:30pm

re: #393 Occasional Reader

Huh, I've never seen one in person.

I have to say, though... that's a weapons system about which I remain skeptical, in terms of cost versus benefit.

right...but I guess the Marines love it...it's got a niche I guess..I've seen them rise right up and slowly turn their nacelles and go off...sometimes two will fly over my place, they never seem to fly alone, always two or three...the feds have so much into that plane that it will probably make the cut since it's just starting to perform the way it was intended....it's a....'killer' plane all right

410 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:41:31pm

Here's the list more or less:

1. To sustain U.S. air superiority, I am committed to building a fifth generation tactical fighter capability that can be produced in quantity at sustainable cost. Therefore, I will recommend increasing the buy of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter from the 14 aircraft bought in FY09 to 30 in FY10, with corresponding funding increases from $6.8 billion to $11.2 billion. We would plan to buy 513 F-35s over the five-year defense plan, and, ultimately, plan to buy 2,443. For naval aviation, we will buy 31 FA-18s in FY10.

2. We will retire 250 of the oldest Air Force tactical fighter aircraft in FY10.

3. We will end production of the F-22 fighter at 187 – representing 183 planes plus four recommended for inclusion in the FY 2009 supplemental.

4. To better protect our forces and those of our allies in theater from ballistic missile attack, we will add $700 million to field more of our most capable theater missile defense systems, specifically the terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) System and Standard Missile 3 (SM-3) programs.

5. We will also add $200 million to fund conversion of six additional Aegis ships to provide ballistic missile defense capabilities.

6. To improve cyberspace capabilities, we will increase the number of cyber experts this department can train from 80 students per year to 250 per year by FY11.

7. To replace the Air Force’s aging tanker fleet, we will maintain the KC-X aerial re-fueling tanker schedule and funding, with the intent to solicit bids this summer.

8. With regard to our nuclear and strategic forces:

•In FY10, we will begin the replacement program for the Ohio class ballistic missile submarine program.

•We will not pursue a development program for a follow-on Air Force bomber until we have a better understanding of the need, the requirement, and the technology.

•We will examine all of our strategic requirements during the Quadrennial Defense Review, the Nuclear Posture Review, and in light of Post-START arms control negotiations.

9. The healthy margin of dominance at sea provided by America’s existing battle fleet makes it possible and prudent to slow production of several major surface combatants and other maritime programs.

•We will shift the Navy Aircraft Carrier program to a five-year build cycle placing it on a more fiscally sustainable path. This will result in 10 carriers after 2040.

•We will delay the Navy CG-X next generation cruiser program to revisit both the requirements and acquisition strategy.

•We will delay amphibious ship and sea-basing programs such as the 11th Landing Platform Dock (LPD) ship and the Mobile Landing Platform (MLP) SHIP to FY11 in order to assess costs and analyze the amount of these capabilities the nation needs.

10. With regard to air lift, we will complete production of the C-17 airlifter program this fiscal year. Our analysis concludes that we have enough C-17s with the 205 already in the force and currently in production.

411 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:41:39pm

re: #390 alegrias

Wait til you see footage of Pres. Obama walking behind goose-stepping Turks in WWII German helmets painted white, before laying a wreath somewhere in Turkey.

Uggh! Didn't someone tell Turkey goose-stepping troops are gross?

The Russians (Soviets) do it , too.
Did you ever see the changing of the guard at Lenin's tomb?

Now, our lads never ever goose-step!
Watch them come June, at the Trooping of the Colour ...

412 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:41:59pm

re: #400 itellu3times

And the Bidenfire unguided missile.

Our pilots in their aging F-15s may get run over by the Indian Air Force in future war games, but at least they'll be able to make fun of their "slight Indian accents".

413 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:42:01pm
414 coloradobuff  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:42:03pm

The bow was just one of many things the President has done wrong in the foriegn policy arena, so I guess in that sense we should not place too much emphasis on that one event, considering there are so many other issues that he is screwing up right now. However, even with the missteps W made over the years regarding the Middle East, the two are still in totally different leagues, as far as I'm concerned.

415 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:42:08pm

I'm gonna write a software add-on called "Disclaimers." Everybody can write down everything they are for and against ONE time, and then just link to it in each new post when they don't want to repeat themselves. wanna know exactly where I'm coming from, read my manifesto. It's all there......jus right click and read all about it.

I'm not a Christian, but I date one.
I do not believe in ID, but I think the theory of blue elephants circling Mars should be tought in ballet class.
Blah,blah,blah,blah,blah.

/thumbs up/thumbs down?

416 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:42:17pm

re: #364 Occasional Reader

And speaking of which; I was strolling down Connecticut Ave. yesterday when two F-16s suddenly shot across the DC sky. Everyone on the street stopped and gaped. It was quite awesome. (Although it did make me a little nervous, wondering if "something" was up.)

I work right by Miramar. Try sitting on the freeway in stop and go traffic and pairs of those come screaming in a couple hundred feet above your head.

417 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:42:33pm

re: #322 albusteve

I'm not arguing against the Raptor...just thinking with my heart I guess, I'm certainly not up to speed with our potential rivals...the airplane is our baby and for that alone I don't want to see a better plane out there

Don't worry. We can always send in Clint to capture a copy.

Youtube Video

//

418 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:42:58pm

re: #406 buzzsawmonkey

I wish I knew, but I don't know the proper pro to call.

That would be Etty Kette, I believe........

419 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:43:04pm

re: #391 Kosh's Shadow

Yes, they are similar to the 707 in design. See any of those flying?
(BTW, blame McCain for part of this.)

Actually the KC-135 is on the 720 airframe. The 720 was the first, and very few were built, the 707's fuselage is 4 inches wider than the 720 / -135. The airlines wanted the wider fuselage. Every thing but the fuselage is common between the 720 / 707.

/just a bit of aviation trivia for the real aviation geeks.

420 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:43:36pm

re: #398 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

US gives 50,000 dlrs for quake-hit Italy

Meanwhile, we sent the Palis $300 million to help them kill more Israelis.

Well, Italy is a rich country, and the palis are starving, mun, starving!

///////////////

421 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:43:45pm

re: #399 spudly

You're in the foothills? Me too- well almost- Tramway and Academy.

422 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:43:49pm

re: #417 DaddyG

Don't worry. We can always send in Clint to capture a copy.

Youtube Video

//

Impossible! Thanks to Global Warming, we got no place to land the bird for refueling anymore!

423 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:44:04pm

re: #399 spudly

albusteve, they fly VFR along Tramway, often, too, I see them from my place in the foothills all the time. :)

I'm in the north valley and it looks like they follow the river...I used to live in the Heights, nice view up around there

424 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:44:34pm

re: #411 yma o hyd

The Russians (Soviets) do it , too.
Did you ever see the changing of the guard at Lenin's tomb?

Now, our lads never ever goose-step!
Watch them come June, at the Trooping of the Colour ...

* * * *
I attended one of your Trooping of the Colours, and Queen Elizabeth rode horseback. I never saw so many mounted troops in my life! What an event.

425 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:44:36pm

re: #363 zombie

I'm now a member of at least 50 different Muslim dating sites. "Muslimahs around the world seek marriage!" I also get daily newsletters from mosques in South Africa, India, Egypt, Turkey, Netherlands and England. I think I've been signed up for half the Islamic email spam sites on the Net.


Start worrying when you get subcriptions to Mullahs Gone Wild.

426 zombie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:44:37pm

re: #415 Claire

I do not believe in ID, but I think the theory of blue elephants circling Mars should be tought in ballet class.

Ah, so you are one of those evil Blue-Elephantists, eh?

Back, Satan!

Everyone know those orbiting elephants are PURPLE!

I know because it says so, right here in The Book of Purple.

427 Querent  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:44:52pm

re: #319 Dianna

You have a point, but...well, the office does not come with a magic wand.

We should be grateful for that.

And we don't need a Fairy Godfather, either...

428 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:45:53pm

re: #415 Claire

I'm gonna write a software add-on called "Disclaimers." Everybody can write down everything they are for and against ONE time, and then just link to it in each new post when they don't want to repeat themselves. wanna know exactly where I'm coming from, read my manifesto. It's all there......jus right click and read all about it.

I'm not a Christian, but I date one.
I do not believe in ID, but I think the theory of blue elephants circling Mars should be tought in ballet class.
Blah,blah,blah,blah,blah.

/thumbs up/thumbs down?

I am against non-racial profiling.

429 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:46:00pm

Take a Bow

Youtube Video
430 Daria Emmons  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:46:01pm

Here is my take on the whole thing. Obama and his supporters made a big deal about Bush kissing the Saudis. Lest we forget many scenes in Fahrenheit 9/11 of Bush dancing with the Saudis? Now you see Obama doing the same thing. At the very least this should be news to show the utterly blatant hypocrisy of the man, and of Obama's followers. And that is what separates him from Bush.

Obama pledged "hope and change." And not only is he not delivering, his "hope and change" in fact is making things worse.

431 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:46:13pm

re: #425 DaddyG

Start worrying when you get subcriptions to Mullahs Gone Wild.

For some reason that does not exactly conjure up images of them at Spring Break.

432 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:46:24pm

re: #428 Spare O'Lake

lol!

433 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:46:44pm

re: #263 avanti

I'll defer to the experts on this, but do we need the F 22 to out fly the third world pilots in the su 30's ? I'm not Gates, but I assume he still thinks we can maintain air superiority with the original production run of F 22's and existing inventory of other fighters.
Do we have anything besides the F 22 that will fly against the Su 30 ?

We cannot rely on the poor training of their pilots. That is something that can quickly change.

434 spudly  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:46:48pm

re: #408 Charles

Yes, he did bow, very formally. He put both hands at his sides, and bowed in deference as Abdullah hung a freaking medal around his neck. It's ridiculous to claim that this is somehow "better" than what Barack Obama.

Everyone does that accepting a medal. A medal was put around his neck. it was accepting a medal, not a bow, period.

If the door in the the room was 5 feet tall he'd have "bowed," too, just to enter.

If he had "bowed" he would have done so upon meeting the guy, not later.

435 zombie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:47:50pm

re: #425 DaddyG

Start worrying when you get subcriptions to Mullahs Gone Wild.

I've been sent some videos (as spam) which you would find very very surprising.

There is apparently a lot of pent-up sexual tension in much of the Muslim world, and not just among the men.

436 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:47:55pm

re: #409 albusteve

right...but I guess the Marines love it...it's got a niche I guess..I've seen them rise right up and slowly turn their nacelles and go off...sometimes two will fly over my place, they never seem to fly alone, always two or three...the feds have so much into that plane that it will probably make the cut since it's just starting to perform the way it was intended....it's a....'killer' plane all right

The Marines really want it because it will let them get Marines in place further and faster than helicopters.
They were the ones that kept it alive through a very long development.

437 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:48:10pm

From 2005
Indian Air force, in war games, gives US a run
snip

If it turns out the US Air Force did, in fact, get their clocks cleaned, it will have been the second time. In Cope India 2004, an air combat exercise that took place near the Indian city of Gwalior, US F-15s were eliminated in multiple exercises against Indian late-model MiG-21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG-27 Floggers. In the 2005 exercises in Kalaikundi air base near Calcutta, Americans were most impressed by the MiG-21 Bisons and the Su-30 MKIs.
438 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:48:21pm

re: #430 Daria Emmons

I can agree with that. The MSM, Mikey Moore, et.al, whined, bitched, moaned, and complained when Bush bowed to the Saudis, but are silent when Obama does the exact same thing. That is the problem here.

439 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:48:26pm

re: #404 Occasional Reader

Should one bow when entering the harem? What is the correct Harem Protocol?

Weellll... bow down before the one you serve.. . you're going to get what you deserve. /

440 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:49:00pm

re: #434 spudly

The Merriam Webster definition of "bow:"

to bend the head, body, or knee in reverence, submission, or shame

to incline the head or body in salutation or assent or to acknowledge applause

He bowed.

441 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:49:33pm

re: #424 alegrias

* * * *
I attended one of your Trooping of the Colours, and Queen Elizabeth rode horseback. I never saw so many mounted troops in my life! What an event.

Aww ...!
That must have been quite a while ago - she is now in a carriage, not because she can't ride any longer, she still does at Windsor or sandringham, but because they don't want her to fall off in case some idiot lets off a loud bang - that has happened (the bang, not her falling off!).

Its an absolute must-watch, for me. The Horse Guards, and the Royal artillery (thats the horse-drawn cannons) are just breath-taking.
And the Queen absolutely loves every mnute of it, she hasn't missed one Trooping of the Colour since her coronation.

442 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:49:36pm

re: #435 zombie

I've been sent some videos (as spam) which you would find very very surprising.

There is apparently a lot of pent-up sexual tension in much of the Muslim world, and not just among the men.

Well, what do you expect when men and women are kept separate, and cannot be with each other publically or privately?

443 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:51:18pm

re: #404 Occasional Reader

Should one bow when entering the harem? What is the correct Harem Protocol?

Thanks for posting that. It lead me to this.


Youtube Video
444 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:51:23pm

Bowing is not required to receive a medal.
Any number of videos are around where the President decorated a service person, who stands at attention, while the President unclasps the medal, stands to the back of the recipient, and fastens it around his or her neck.

445 Daria Emmons  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:51:28pm

re: #438 Honorary Yooper

I can agree with that. The MSM, Mikey Moore, et.al, whined, bitched, moaned, and complained when Bush bowed to the Saudis, but are silent when Obama does the exact same thing. That is the problem here.

It is really disgusting hypocrisy on the part of the MSM and the left. (increasingly showing to be one and same)

Another aspect of hypocrisy: during the G20 summit, there were thousands of leftists protesting Obama. Where was the MSM in America, showing that it turns out Euro-leftists still hate America? They would be all over this news when Bush would be at such events. Instead, we hear the deafening sound of crickets chirping.

446 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:51:34pm
447 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:51:43pm
448 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:52:03pm

re: #440 Charles

re: #434 spudly

The Merriam Webster definition of "bow:"

to bend the head, body, or knee in reverence, submission, or shame

to incline the head or body in salutation or assent or to acknowledge applause

He bowed.

I disagree. By that very definition, he did not.

449 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:52:21pm

Obama bowing captions (add your own):

"Man I cannot believe how uppity my subjects are. Do you see all of the new grey hairs I'm getting!?"

"Nice sandals"

"No? Really, did GWB really balance a sword on his neck for 60 seconds?"

"Would it have killed you to shave your toes for a state visit?"

"I am not kidding you. She puts on the leather outfit, has me assume the position and calls me a naughty leader of the free world."

450 Golem Akbar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:52:27pm

Not that my opinion counts for much -- I've been too busy lately to join in on the discussions -- but Charles has kept a level head when so many on the right are losing theirs. Keep up the focus, Charles. Reasonable people may differ but don't say stupid and embarassing things that will make the right look like rabid kooks that need to be ignored.

Ciao for now.

451 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:53:09pm

re: #435 zombie

I've been sent some videos (as spam) which you would find very very surprising.

There is apparently a lot of pent-up sexual tension in much of the Muslim world, and not just among the men.


Wow! I'm almost sorry I started that line of discussion. (Almost)

452 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:53:13pm

re: #435 zombie

I've been sent some videos (as spam) which you would find very very surprising.

There is apparently a lot of pent-up sexual tension in much of the Muslim world, and not just among the men.

I lived there for 5 years and saw it firsthand. This is one of the most powerful urges in human nature and aggravates the threat they feel from unfettered Western sexuality which they see mainly portrayed in our media.
It makes for a dangerous brew of emotions.

453 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:53:15pm

NYTimes needs a guy who knows military.

And some of the cuts he made were less than draconian. While he chose to emphasize building smaller, speedier ships for waters close to shore, the slower shipbuilding he proposed for the deep-water Navy would not reduce the number of aircraft carrier battle groups at sea for many years, and then only temporarily. While he capped the number of the latest combat planes, the Air Force’s F-22s, that would be bought, he increased the numbers for its planned successor, the F-35, promising to spend billions more on it. While he postponed for more study the purchases of some new Army vehicles, he did not abandon the costly electronic equipment they are to carry — the $160 billion Future Combat System.

The -22 and -35 have different missions, the -35 is not a succesor to the -22. The -35 is replacing the AV-8B, the A-10, the F/A-18, the F-15E, the F-16. The air force will have the -22 for air superiority, while the -35 variants do the rest of the work. Meanwhile the Navy doesn't have a superioty fighter for the fleet.

454 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:53:18pm

BREAKING: Missile Defense Cuts; MKV TERMINATED

[Link: closingvelocity.typepad.com...]

Dave, what are you doing?

455 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:54:03pm

re: #446 buzzsawmonkey

Fat Ma Fatima shakin' it in the harem
She's got burkhas galore, but at home she doesn't wear 'em

OK now I'm officially sorry.
/

456 Daria Emmons  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:54:09pm

As far as conservatives and their take on Obama...

I say I am outraged that Obama bowed to the Saudi prince because I base my opinions upon what I deem to be universal and not relative morality.

Yes, Bush bowed to the Saudis. I was not happy when he did that. And I am not happy when Obama bows to the Saudis.

To be simplistic, two wrongs do not make a right.

457 bloodnok  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:54:16pm

re: #444 rawmuse

Bowing is not required to receive a medal.
Any number of videos are around where the President decorated a service person, who stands at attention, while the President unclasps the medal, stands to the back of the recipient, and fastens it around his or her neck.

Yup. Or they could have presented the medal to him pinned to a display or under glass.

He bowed.

458 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:54:19pm

re: #440 Charles

The Merriam Webster definition of "bow:"

He bowed.

We all bow and kiss Saudi *as.

* g or a either one will work.

459 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:54:24pm

re: #326 ConservatismNow!

Cargo capacity is a big damned deal when it takes two C-17s to move your batallion vs one C-5, with both options being a week apart in ETA!

The C-5 is a helluva plane, but it cannot land and take off in those pesky third-world countries like a C-17.

460 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:54:31pm

re: #444 rawmuse

Bowing is not required to receive a medal.
Any number of videos are around where the President decorated a service person, who stands at attention, while the President unclasps the medal, stands to the back of the recipient, and fastens it around his or her neck.

Exactly right.

I'm reminded of Bill Clinton trying to parse the definition of the word "is."

461 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:54:49pm

re: #453 jcm

NYTimes needs a guy who knows military.

The -22 and -35 have different missions, the -35 is not a succesor to the -22. The -35 is replacing the AV-8B, the A-10, the F/A-18, the F-15E, the F-16. The air force will have the -22 for air superiority, while the -35 variants do the rest of the work. Meanwhile the Navy doesn't have a superioty fighter for the fleet.

Boy that could make practicing dentistry deep inside that carrier risky I guess?

462 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:55:02pm
We don’t need fantasies to validly oppose liberalism, after all.

I think that's a great comment. And I'm glad not all the mail in the inbox is hateful.

But I completely agree with the above line. We don't need to make up anything else about 0bama- his policies are enough, and should be the foundation of any criticism. I'm not interested in a nanny state or socialism, and I can articulate my reasoning with mentioning 0bama at all. Because frankly- if it wasn't 0bama in the WH, but was rather a different democrat, I would still be opposed to the policies. 'Nuff said.

463 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:55:06pm
464 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:55:47pm

re: #449 DaddyG

Obama bowing captions (add your own):

"Man I cannot believe how uppity my subjects are. Do you see all of the new grey hairs I'm getting!?"

"Nice sandals"

"No? Really, did GWB really balance a sword on his neck for 60 seconds?"

"Would it have killed you to shave your toes for a state visit?"

"I am not kidding you. She puts on the leather outfit, has me assume the position and calls me a naughty leader of the free world."

"I just know I dropped my birth certificate around here somewhere."

465 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:55:51pm

re: #460 Charles

Exactly right.

I'm reminded of Bill Clinton trying to parse the definition of the word "is."

I'm reminded of Bill Clinton trying to parse an intern!

//

j/k

466 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:56:14pm

If you can't bow to the one you love,
Bow to the one you're with.

467 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:56:33pm

re: #453 jcm

NYTimes needs a guy who knows military.

Hey, if you're impugning our noble mainstream media by saying that they're ignorant about military affairs and weapons, I take offense, sir! I demand satisfaction. At dawn, tomorrow, with automatic Glock revolver shotguns.

468 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:57:04pm

re: #461 Nevergiveup

Boy that could make practicing dentistry deep inside that carrier risky I guess?

LOL! You're probably okay for a decade or so.

Problem I have is it takes so damn long to get a new bird out to the fleet, if they started now it wouldn't be on deck until '35.

That's when my kids would be out there, if they choose Navy.

469 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:57:54pm

re: #453 jcm

NYTimes needs a guy who knows military.

The -22 and -35 have different missions, the -35 is not a succesor to the -22. The -35 is replacing the AV-8B, the A-10, the F/A-18, the F-15E, the F-16. The air force will have the -22 for air superiority, while the -35 variants do the rest of the work. Meanwhile the Navy doesn't have a superioty fighter for the fleet.

Now all of the NY Times readers will be thinking that F-35 would replace the F-22. Priceless. These are the same types of journalists that think external tanks are "bombs."

470 spudly  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:58:15pm

Western medals have snaps on the back to avoid this you'll note.

Using a dictionary definition for this is like the creationist idiots using a dictionary definition of "theory" to say, "it's just a theory." If you use the dictionary definition of theory, you can create confusion when you in fact mean the scientific definition (which is more robust).

Bowing for royalty is a specific, technical protocol. The dictionary doesn't cut it, you'd need to quote a guideline for such protocol suggesting that bowing to accept a medal is an act of supplication.

So of course he "bowed," but he did not "Bow." I realize this is a semantic distinction, but none the less it is a real distinction.

Note that I specifically said that I think Obama did not intend supplication, but was acting in a way he thought polite. He handlers should have informed him otherwise. If it is true that US protocol is not to bow (the President, at least) even to accept a medal, where the act is not supplication but merely making it possible to hang it around the neck, then I will happily stand corrected.

471 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:58:39pm

I am kinda disappointed now that we can't call Michelle a Klingon anymore. I so enjoyed that.

472 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:58:41pm
473 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:58:43pm

re: #469 Gus 802

Or a Bradley or M113 is a tank.

474 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:58:57pm

BBL

475 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:59:21pm

re: #457 bloodnok

Yup. Or they could have presented the medal to him pinned to a display or under glass.

He bowed.

Or he could have demanded that the King perform a medal ring-toss maneuver to get it around his neck.

476 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:59:42pm

re: #467 Occasional Reader

Hey, if you're impugning our noble mainstream media by saying that they're ignorant about military affairs and weapons, I take offense, sir! I demand satisfaction. At dawn, tomorrow, with automatic Glock revolver shotguns.

the revolver shotgun....probably working on full auto...oh wait

[Link: www.gunblast.com...]

477 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:00:07pm

re: #293 Kosh's Shadow

It can't replace the C-17 as it is based on an airliner and needs larger and better runways. The C-17 is a true military transport, designed for less than ideal conditions.

BTW, the more I read about the tanker selection, the more I think it was rigged. One example is that Boeing was told cargo capacity was not important, but that was one of the items used to choose Airbus. Boeing would have gone with a different design had they been told it was important.

Boeing's proposal was close to the spec on the request for proposal. The Northrop KC-45 proposal far exceeded it within the expected costs for just a tanker. That is what won the contract.

The KC-45 has cargo capacity, in a similar manner to the KC-10, but is nowhere near the capability of a true military transport like the C-17. It makes a good and very useful supplemental cargo transport.

478 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:00:46pm

re: #475 Russkilitlover

Or he could have demanded that the King perform a medal ring-toss maneuver to get it around his neck.

If it were Obama, could the ring toss fit over the ears?

//

BAD SATT ,, BAD BAD BAD

479 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:00:47pm
480 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:00:58pm

re: #460 Charles

I'm reminded of Bill Clinton trying to parse the definition of the word "is."

Sorry... no, here there ARE important distinctions as to what kind of "bow" we're talking about. To take a deliberately extreme example; bowing to acknowledge applause from an admiring audience is NOT the same thing as bowing to acknowledge one's subservience to a monarch. The physical acts might bear some facile similarity; the symbolic import is wildly different.

481 KingKenrod  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:01:03pm

re: #444 rawmuse

Bowing is not required to receive a medal.
Any number of videos are around where the President decorated a service person, who stands at attention, while the President unclasps the medal, stands to the back of the recipient, and fastens it around his or her neck.

Military protocol is different from diplomatic protocol. I would not expect our President to turn his back on a Saudi or any other diplomatic person. A serviceman could certainly do that because there is an enormous bond of trust. Not so with a Saudi.

482 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:01:06pm

re: #473 JHW

Or a Bradley or M113 is a tank.

The variations are endless. I remember seeing a CNN photo caption with an "unexploded bomb near a village." It was a centerline tank.

483 Killian Bundy  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:01:09pm

re: #454 Nevergiveup

BREAKING: Missile Defense Cuts; MKV TERMINATED

[Link: closingvelocity.typepad.com...]

F-22 Raptor axed by Pentagon

/but hey, there's plenty of money for ACORN

484 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:01:23pm

re: #471 Claire

I am kinda disappointed now that we can't call Michelle a Klingon anymore. I so enjoyed that.

No personal insults, just substantive disagreements. Such as "Michelle has the fashion sense of a Klingon."

//

485 FightingBack  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:01:40pm

If you were POTUS, how could you actually bow to anyone? I think I would be unable to. Bowing doesn't come naturally to me, and especially if I am representing the USA to crowned heads of any type...
I could bow to someone based on achievement and contribution, like my Mother, or Jonas Salk, for example, but otherwise it would be a problem.

486 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:01:51pm

re: #478 sattv4u2

If it were Obama, could the ring toss fit over the ears?

//

BAD SATT ,, BAD BAD BAD

no leaners!....close don't count!

487 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:02:07pm

re: #484 DaddyG

No personal insults, just substantive disagreements. Such as "Michelle has the fashion sense of a Klingon."

//

Hey, it works for the Klingons.

Michelle is to fashion as the Vogons are to poetry.

488 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:02:08pm

re: #469 Gus 802

Now all of the NY Times readers will be thinking that F-35 would replace the F-22. Priceless. These are the same types of journalists that think external tanks are "bombs."

Well, they don't look like tanks, do they?
/

489 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:02:23pm

Would a bow big a big deal if we were discussing Japan?

490 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:02:57pm

Bow Down Mister!

491 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:02:57pm

re: #482 Gus 802

Yes, and recently, I think it might have been that naval incident near China, they constantly called a destroyer a battleship.

492 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:03:13pm

re: #488 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Well, they don't look like tanks, do they?
/

No that you mention it! They are! :)

493 debutaunt  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:03:25pm

re: #328 Dianna

All of the above. I'm not inclined to panic, but I'm not exactly feeling cheerful.

I know more about Russia, in the end, than I do about every other front. And Russia is going to be a huge problem.

I think that Bush brought Rice on because of her Russian expertise.

494 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:03:39pm

re: #482 Gus 802

The variations are endless. I remember seeing a CNN photo caption with an "unexploded bomb near a village." It was a centerline tank.

And let's not forget these "bullets" that were fired by evil American stormtroopers at this poor Iraqi lady's house.

495 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:03:41pm
496 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:03:45pm

re: #491 JHW

Yes, and recently, I think it might have been that naval incident near China, they constantly called a destroyer a battleship.

Such a pretty boat. Ship.

497 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:03:51pm

re: #490 Spare O'Lake

Bow Down Mister!

Considering its Boy George, I would say think twice before you do.

498 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:19pm

re: #491 JHW

Yes, and recently, I think it might have been that naval incident near China, they constantly called a destroyer a battleship.

Really? What was it the USS New Jersey? //

499 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:23pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

Would a bow big a big deal if we were discussing Japan?

At the moment ... Japan is not funding people who want to cut our heads off ... well, AFAIK ...

500 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:24pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

Would a bow big a big deal if we were discussing Japan?

I made that point. My company has "directors" (fancy managers). Here in the states when I meet one, we shake hands. When I'm in Japan and encounter one, we bow,, with me going 1st by a just a second.

501 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:29pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

Would a bow big a big deal if we were discussing Japan?

Depends - you thinking Japan 1939 or Japan 2009?

502 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:39pm

BOW WOW!...."good for making a mess out of any occasion!...call now!

503 zombie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:41pm

re: #483 Killian Bundy

F-22 Raptor axed by Pentagon

/but hey, there's plenty of money for ACORN

Oh, that's just splendid.

Note that the article said the Air Force originally wanted 750 F-22, but they're going to end up with just 187.

As a result, they will be spread very thin in every theater of operation. And everywhere else, as noted above, the Russians, Indians and Chinese will have potential air superiority.

504 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:44pm

re: #484 DaddyG

So if I say, that purple and red poppy coat looked like a frock designed for Zippy the Pinhead, under which category does it fall?

505 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:04:46pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

And let's not forget these "bullets" that were fired by evil American stormtroopers at this poor Iraqi lady's house.

The Americans were so eager to kill this poor woman, they couldn't even wait to load their rifles - they just threw the bullets at her!
/

506 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:06pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

And let's not forget these "bullets" that were fired by evil American stormtroopers at this poor Iraqi lady's house.

Oh, I remember that incident. What a bunch of suckers they were to fall for it. Probably corrected on page 33 of the NY Times.

507 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:08pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

Would a bow big a big deal if we were discussing Japan?

I think that in that case the bow would be reciprocated. I don't think there is subservience involved.

508 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:15pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

Would a bow big a big deal if we were discussing Japan?

I would find it inappropriate for a U.S. President to bow to the Emperor of Japan. However, I would be less outraged than in the present case, because modern Japan is not a backward theocracy that promotes an ideology of hatred towards us.

509 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:24pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

re: #500 sattv4u2

I made that point. My company has "directors" (fancy managers). Here in the states when I meet one, we shake hands. When I'm in Japan and encounter one, we bow,, with me going 1st by a just a second.

THEN we shake hands!

510 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:26pm

re: #484 DaddyG

No personal insults, just substantive disagreements. Such as "Michelle has the fashion sense of a Klingon."

//

If only she would wear chain mail and leather! That would probably actually look good on her.

511 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:31pm

re: #498 Gus 802

The Frigate Constitution for all they know I imagine.

512 capitalist piglet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:35pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

Would a bow big a big deal if we were discussing Japan?

If that were the case, the bow would be mutual, and it would indicate nothing more than a greeting, I think - though I could be wrong.

513 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:52pm

re: #491 JHW

Yes, and recently, I think it might have been that naval incident near China, they constantly called a destroyer a battleship.

Try and explain the difference between Missile Frigates (FFG) an Destroyers (DD).

514 spudly  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:54pm

BTW, it is entirely possible that Bush's handlers should have told him not to bed to accept the medal as well, and did not, and he acted in the way he thought he should.

Obama did the bow/handshake thing, which if he were not President would probably be quite proper. I think he just needs more capable handlers. Note that for the parsing this would likely get in the Arabic press, Bush should not have bent, either, it's too easy to lend itself to the still of him bent, and sends the wrong signal.

My point is that a bow upon meeting is not the same as any bend at the hip.

515 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:05:59pm

re: #495 Iron Fist

You requested a full-auto revolver shotgun? I give you the Jackhammer.

Guaranteed to fuck up somebody's world.

It's a little early in the season for composing "Dear Santa... " lists.
/

516 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:06:42pm

re: #471 Claire

I am kinda disappointed now that we can't call Michelle a Klingon anymore. I so enjoyed that.

We can't?

517 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:06:54pm

re: #480 Occasional Reader

Sorry... no, here there ARE important distinctions as to what kind of "bow" we're talking about. To take a deliberately extreme example; bowing to acknowledge applause from an admiring audience is NOT the same thing as bowing to acknowledge one's subservience to a monarch. The physical acts might bear some facile similarity; the symbolic import is wildly different.

I don't see any difference in the symbolic import. Both Presidents bowed to the Saudis, both literally and figuratively. If you want to put it under the microscope, Obama's bow was LESS formal than Bush's.

American presidents have been nauseatingly deferential to the Saudis for a long, long time. It's just not intellectually honest to claim that Obama did something new, and horribly different. It's only another point on the continuum of US coddling of Saudi Arabia.

518 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:06:57pm

re: #513 jcm

Hell, I can't do it, I was a Doggie, but I know they're far from being a battleship.

519 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:03pm

re: #495 Iron Fist

You requested a full-auto revolver shotgun? I give you the Jackhammer.

Guaranteed to fuck up somebody's world.

holy SHIT!...I've seen the drum style, but that thing is really bad ass!....what's it's rate of fire?

520 spudly  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:18pm

Bend, not bed. :) Spellchecker missed that since it's a word.

521 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:19pm

re: #504 Claire

So if I say, that purple and red poppy coat looked like a frock designed for Zippy the Pinhead, under which category does it fall?

Meow!

522 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:26pm

re: #506 Gus 802

Oh, I remember that incident. What a bunch of suckers they were to fall for it. Probably corrected on page 33 of the NY Times.

I wonder if a single person at the NYT could identify what is wrong with that picture.

523 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:39pm

re: #510 Dianna

If only she would wear chain mail and leather! That would probably actually look good on her.

"Master Blaster runs Barter Town!"

524 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:46pm

re: #504 Claire
I'm just impressed you know about Zippy the Pinhead.

525 Killian Bundy  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:48pm

WRAPUP 1-US defense plan would kill several big programs

Among the Pentagon's big name programs, Gates' proposal would: cut missile defense spending by $1.4 billion in 2010

/never fear, ACORN will protect us from North Korean missiles and Iranian warheads

526 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:07:54pm

re: #503 zombie

Oh, that's just splendid.

Note that the article said the Air Force originally wanted 750 F-22, but they're going to end up with just 187.

As a result, they will be spread very thin in every theater of operation. And everywhere else, as noted above, the Russians, Indians and Chinese will have potential air superiority.

Add Venezuela to that list.

527 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:06pm

re: #510 Dianna

If only she would wear chain mail and leather! That would probably actually look good on her.



She needs to at least wear one of these

528 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:12pm

re: #516 Kosh's Shadow

No, sorry. The reprimand was all over the web yesterday. Didn't you see it? It's your responsibility as a citizen of the blogosphere to keep up with these things.

529 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:27pm

re: #513 jcm

Try and explain the difference between Missile Frigates (FFG) an Destroyers (DD).

Benny Hill (as Channel Tunnel developer, complaining about UK government interference in his project): And we've had one of those, those Navy ships spying on us... what do you call them, those smallish Navy ships!

Interviewer: Frigate.

Benny Hill: Really!

530 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:31pm

re: #512 capitalist piglet

It's a respectful signal towards people in that culture. It would be considered disrespectful not to. A breech in protocol. When in Rome, as it were.

531 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:36pm

re: #363 zombie

I'm now a member of at least 50 different Muslim dating sites. "Muslimahs around the world seek marriage!" I also get daily newsletters from mosques in South Africa, India, Egypt, Turkey, Netherlands and England. I think I've been signed up for half the Islamic email spam sites on the Net.

So--soon a simcha by you?

You must tell us where you and the fiancee are registered!

/

532 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:39pm

re: #484 DaddyG

No personal insults, just substantive disagreements. Such as "Michelle has the fashion sense of a Klingon."

//

No, I think Klingons have better fashion sense than that.

533 Paul Sorene  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:39pm

Fatwa chaos averted in Abu Dhabi:

[Link: www.anorak.co.uk...]

534 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:43pm

re: #489 Sharmuta

the New York Times published an article in 1994 about an alleged bow made by Clinton to the Emperor of Japan...and the NYTimes was not happy...

535 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:46pm

re: #519 albusteve

holy SHIT!...I've seen the drum style, but that thing is really bad ass!....what's it's rate of fire?

240 rounds per minute....whoa

536 jwb7605  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:52pm

re: #503 zombie

Oh, that's just splendid.

Note that the article said the Air Force originally wanted 750 F-22, but they're going to end up with just 187.

As a result, they will be spread very thin in every theater of operation. And everywhere else, as noted above, the Russians, Indians and Chinese will have potential air superiority.

I heard a local radio analysis of this. It sounds like Obama intends to de-emphasize hardware, and increase personnel.

Ten guys in a tank vs. a hundred guys with no tank, sort of (?)logic.

537 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:08:56pm

re: #527 ConservatismNow!

She needs to at least wear one of these

Only if she's carrying a sword. Or perhaps a battleaxe.

538 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:09:06pm

re: #522 jcm

I wonder if a single person at the NYT could identify what is wrong with that picture.

They could if they had ever fired a gun in their entire life.

539 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:09:25pm

re: #444 rawmuse

Bowing is not required to receive a medal.
Any number of videos are around where the President decorated a service person, who stands at attention, while the President unclasps the medal, stands to the back of the recipient, and fastens it around his or her neck.


If the president is standing behind the recipient it would be counter productive to bow forward.

540 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:09:48pm

re: #536 jwb7605

I heard a local radio analysis of this. It sounds like Obama intends to de-emphasize hardware, and increase personnel.

Ten guys in a tank vs. a hundred guys with no tank, sort of (?)logic.

Banzai!

//

541 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:09:57pm

re: #518 JHW

Hell, I can't do it, I was a Doggie, but I know they're far from being a battleship.

LOL! Especially since the last was retired in in '91.

542 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:09:59pm

re: #495 Iron Fist

You requested a full-auto revolver shotgun? I give you the Jackhammer.

Guaranteed to fuck up somebody's world.

I've posted this before, but I never get tired of it - The AA-12 Automatic Shotgun in action.

543 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:10:22pm

re: #346 Kenneth

Gates made this announcement, but I would have to think Obama directed him to do so. The US budget is stretched to the limits and then some, so something had to go. In my opinion, that something should have been a whole raft of stimulus spending on pork. The high tech industries supported by the F-22 production could have benefited by continued "stimulus" spending.

Gates was talking about reworking the way money is spent this summer, so we can't lay the plan only on BHO. I think Gates would offer his resignation if he was asked to support a budget that would harm the troops, but that's just my read on the man.

544 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:10:23pm

re: #530 Sharmuta

What I said yesterday...

His house, bow to him, if that is the protocol...
Your house, he bows to you, if that is the protocol...
Neutral turf? Cool, what's up nod...or something like that.

545 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:11:20pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

And let's not forget these "bullets" that were fired by evil American stormtroopers at this poor Iraqi lady's house.

I almost choked on my lunch. Are people really that dumb?

546 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:11:29pm

re: #517 Charles

Both Presidents bowed to the Saudis, both literally and figuratively.

First off; can we set aside the "figuratively" part for a moment? Because it keeps getting blended into the "literally" side of the argument, which just confuses things.

Second: Bush "bowed" his head so a shorter man could hang a medal around his kneck. Obama "bowed" as an act of greeting/recognition. I cannot agree that those are the same category.

547 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:11:33pm

Take a Bow

548 Soona'  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:11:36pm

re: #483 Killian Bundy

F-22 Raptor axed by Pentagon

/but hey, there's plenty of money for ACORN

That reminds me. Now that the zero has funding for his own homeland security force, has anyone heard how that's coming along?

549 snowcrash  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:12:14pm

re: #516 Kosh's Shadow

We can't?

I was wondering the same thing. Did we miss a LGF edict?

550 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:12:30pm

re: #530 Sharmuta

In Japanese culture it's a sign of respect (between Japanese)...but, ironically, in Saudi Arabia, the King told his subjects that he didn't want to have any of them bowing or kissing his hand (he feels it's not something a free and noble person would do).

551 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:12:37pm

re: #534 J.S.

the New York Times published an article in 1994 about an alleged bow made by Clinton to the Emperor of Japan...and the NYTimes was not happy...

The difference there is cultural. That bow would be reciprocated in place of a handshake.

552 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:12:38pm

re: #533 Paul Sorene

Fatwa chaos averted in Abu Dhabi:

[Link: www.anorak.co.uk...]

It is sooooo embarassing when you stone an infidel and find out later that the Fatwa wasn't official!
//

553 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:12:38pm

re: #525 Killian Bundy

WRAPUP 1-US defense plan would kill several big programs


/never fear, ACORN will protect us from North Korean missiles and Iranian warheads

Exactly! They'll register lots of phantom voters who will vote Kim Jong-Il out of office!

554 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:12:42pm

re: #538 ConservatismNow!

They could if they had ever fired a gun in their entire life.

I have never fired a gun in my life but even I know what's wrong with that pic!

555 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:12:53pm

re: #508 Occasional Reader

I would find it inappropriate for a U.S. President to bow to the Emperor of Japan. However, I would be less outraged than in the present case, because modern Japan is not a backward theocracy that promotes an ideology of hatred towards us.

Yes, but they do promote a lot of weird cartoons & pr0no.

556 Claire  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:00pm

re: #546 Occasional Reader

And then they held hands and danced around the room brandishing the sword of Allah. After that, the bow kinda gets lost in the noise.

557 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:22pm

re: #536 jwb7605

I heard a local radio analysis of this. It sounds like Obama intends to de-emphasize hardware, and increase personnel.

Ten guys in a tank vs. a hundred guys with no tank, sort of (?)logic.

It was near the end of basic training and all the soldiers were getting ready for the war.
A private came charging into his Lieutenant's office and said " Lieutenant, we don't have enough rifles. What am I going to use for the war?"

"I don't have time to deal with this right now" the lieutenant thought.

He grabbed a broom, sawed off the bottom, and handed it to the solder. "Here use this instead."

"How is this going to work?"

"When you see the bad guys coming at you, just point it at them and say 'Bangity Bang Bang, Bang Bang'".

So the private ran out with his new "rifle". But soon he came running back to the Lieutenant saying "Lieutenant, we don't have enough bayonets!"

The Lieutenant grabbed a piece of string off of his desk and gave it the private. "When you see the bad guys coming just throw this at them and say 'Stabity Stab Stab, Stab Stab.'"

So the private was all ready for his war. He was sitting in a fox hole, hating being out there, when he saw an enemy creeping along the top of a nearby hill.

He grabbed his broom, pointed it at the bad guy and said "Bangity Bang Bang, Bang Bang Bangity Bang Bang, Bang Bang" and he fell down dead.

"Wow this really works" thought the private. He started going through the underbrush when another enemy jumped out and try to gut him - he threw his string at him and said, 'Stabbity Stab Stab, Stab Stab!'. The enemy fell down, dead.

Pretty soon, he saw another guy rampaging through the woods. He pointed his broomstick at him and yelled, 'Bangity Bang Bang, Bang Bang!' Nothing, so he did it again, 'Bangity Bang Bang, Bang Bang!' The guy was running at him now. He threw the string, Stabbit Stab Stab StabStab!' The enemy kept running at him and plowed him over, mortally wounding him.

Then he heard the big guy mumbling as he went past him "Tankity Tank Tank Tank Tank Tankity Tank Tank Tank Tank."

558 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:25pm
559 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:25pm

re: #555 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

You say that like it's a bad thing

560 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:34pm

re: #544 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What I said yesterday...

His house, bow to him, if that is the protocol...
Your house, he bows to you, if that is the protocol...
Neutral turf? Cool, what's up nod...or something like that.

Fist bump, yo!

561 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:36pm

re: #495 Iron Fist

You requested a full-auto revolver shotgun? I give you the Jackhammer.

Guaranteed to fuck up somebody's world.

That looks like a Big Fucking Gun.

562 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:36pm

re: #551 Honorary Yooper

The difference there is cultural. That bow would be reciprocated in place of a handshake.

see my #500 and 509

563 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:37pm

Don't worry. Soon we will have bigger and better things to worry about than whether or not something was a bow, a gesture, or the like.

There are more than enough tops spinning, that this argument will seem like a distant memory sooner rahter than later.

564 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:40pm

re: #545 ArchangelMichael

I almost choked on my lunch. Are people really that dumb?

Just grab a handful of bullets and throw it against the house!

//

565 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:42pm

re: #540 Gus 802

Banzai!

//

= "bow to the Emperor"... oh noes!

566 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:13:42pm
567 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:14:07pm

re: #563 formercorpsman

Yes, I see it now.

568 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:14:39pm

Is Mandy around?

Jake Tapper Isn’t Letting Go


Jake Tapper isn’t the easiest guy to interview. After all, when your interview subject is a competent journalist, he or she already knows all the tricks of the trade — the subtle flatteries, the ever-so-slightly leading questions — so Tapper isn’t about to say any more than he has to about his personal politics or what goes on behind the scenes of his job as ABC News White House correspondent.

Or it’s possible Tapper doesn’t want to talk about these things because he’s one of the last remaining journalists in America who take the responsibilities of their jobs seriously, and thus place a premium on their credibility.

What we can say for certain is that Tapper isn’t afraid to go against the grain of the liberal consensus in pursuit of a story. Whether he was pointing out that Barack Obama was a “one-man gaffe machine,” factchecking Obama on the surge, or chiding him for blaming any and all mistakes on his staff, no mainstream journalist was tougher on Obama during the campaign. Considering the fact that much of the media gave Obama the kid-glove treatment, Tapper’s reporting was essential.

It's a good read if you so desire....

569 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:14:55pm

re: #503 zombie

Oh, that's just splendid.

Note that the article said the Air Force originally wanted 750 F-22, but they're going to end up with just 187.

As a result, they will be spread very thin in every theater of operation. And everywhere else, as noted above, the Russians, Indians and Chinese will have potential air superiority.

Never mind that fewer planes flying more missions means that they will reach maximum service hours for the airframes that much faster.

570 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:14:55pm

re: #565 Occasional Reader

= "bow to the Emperor"... oh noes!

Could it be? Obama is a Nipponese spy?

//

571 Ben Hur  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:15:36pm

re: #561 Honorary Yooper

That looks like a Big Fucking Gun.

Why, thank you.

It is.

572 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:15:54pm

re: #556 Claire

And then they held hands and danced around the room brandishing the sword of Allah. After that, the bow kinda gets lost in the noise.

AGAIN: I'd like to start with referring to these two, discrete physical acts, and their import. Okay?

573 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:15:57pm

re: #545 ArchangelMichael

I almost choked on my lunch. Are people really that dumb?

Now, let's not get hasty here. If you threw one of those hard enough, it could put out an eye!

574 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:16:02pm

re: #546 Occasional Reader

First off; can we set aside the "figuratively" part for a moment? Because it keeps getting blended into the "literally" side of the argument, which just confuses things.

Well, you're the one who brought up the "symbolism" of it, and I was responding to that.

Second: Bush "bowed" his head so a shorter man could hang a medal around his kneck. Obama "bowed" as an act of greeting/recognition. I cannot agree that those are the same category.

No, that's not the case. Bush put both hands at his sides and bowed from the waist, and it was clearly an act of deference, no less than what Obama did. Then he shook Abdullah's hand and kissed him on both cheeks.

At least Obama didn't kiss the bastard.

575 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:16:06pm

re: #545 ArchangelMichael

I almost choked on my lunch. Are people really that dumb?

Do you want the short answer or the long answer?

I'll use the short answer since the long answer could take all day.
Short answer: Yes.

576 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:16:09pm

What's the likely fallout if a POTUS goes to Saudi and doesn't join in the bowing and sword dancing and whatnot. What would the Saudis do, turn off the spigot in a fit of pique?

Do we make the Saudis put their hands over their hearts at the playing of our National Anthem?

577 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:16:26pm

re: #571 Ben Hur

Why, thank you.

It is.

I've often wondered if our military even uses these weapons.

578 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:16:39pm

re: #570 Gus 802

Could it be? Obama is a Nipponese spy?

//

Youtube Video
579 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:16:45pm

re: #549 snowcrash

I was wondering the same thing. Did we miss a LGF edict?

I don't remember seeing anything.

580 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:17:24pm

re: #518 JHW

Hell, I can't do it, I was a Doggie, but I know they're far from being a battleship.

Not to be confused with Al Qaeda's new military vehicle, the Battlesheep.
And they are useful while not in battle as well.

581 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:17:30pm

re: #529 Occasional Reader

Benny Hill (as Channel Tunnel developer, complaining about UK government interference in his project): And we've had one of those, those Navy ships spying on us... what do you call them, those smallish Navy ships!

Interviewer: Frigate.

Benny Hill: Really!

Was that one of the Fred Scuttle bits?

582 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:17:56pm

re: #574 Charles

At least Obama didn't kiss the bastard.

Bush didn't get tongue, so it really doesn't count!

///

583 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:18:06pm

re: #551 Honorary Yooper

The difference there is cultural. That bow would be reciprocated in place of a handshake.


True, dealing with Japanese in business situations, mutual bows are somewhat customary.
Obama's bow struck me as submissive.

584 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:18:10pm

re: #542 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I've posted this before, but I never get tired of it - The AA-12 Automatic Shotgun in action.

It looks like a very cool weapon, but does it seem wise for Alcoholics Anonymous to be involved in this sort of thing?

585 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:18:23pm

re: #558 Iron Fist

240 rounds a minute. The actual rate would be less, though. I've never actually seen one, but I'd imagine the recoil would be fierce. There was another weapon design out about the same tie that was a double-barreled full auto weapon. I can't remember what it was called, and a brief search didn't turn it up. There was a lot of research in the late '80s on combat shotguns (H&K had a neat one, too, IIRC), but nothing ever made it into production.

Didn't the Atchison AA-12 "Street Sweeper" make it into limited production? I don't know if it did or not.

586 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:18:24pm

re: #580 Kosh's Shadow

I'm not going to ask how that particular vehicle is serviced.

587 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:03pm

re: #573 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, let's not get hasty here. If you threw one of those hard enough, it could put out an eye!

It could also bounce off a rock, triggering the primer and firing the bullet right back at you.

588 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #27 tryptic67

So Obama didn't bow to Abdullah? That was just a fantasy? I'm very glad to know that I can't trust my own lying eyes.

So, by now you know that the point is it just doesn't matter.

All the recent presidents, and a great majority of politicians on both sides bow, and scrape and kiss, and hold hands with the Saudi Royals....

That is the point.... don't throw rocks, if you live in a glass house...

THE USA sent troops to defend Saudi Arabia.... spent US blood and treasure to defend the Saudi Royal Families, and got what in return?

Bowing? That is the least offensive gesture I have seen....

589 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:20pm

re: #583 opnion

True, dealing with Japanese in business situations, mutual bows are somewhat customary.
Obama's bow struck me as submissive.

again ,,please see my 500 and 509

590 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:33pm

re: #586 JHW

I'm not going to ask how that particular vehicle is serviced.

Ewe have to access it from the rear.

591 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:34pm

re: #574 Charles

At least Obama didn't kiss the bastard.

That's probably because Obama doesn't like the taste of crude oil."

//

592 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:36pm

re: #576 godfrey

What's the likely fallout if a POTUS goes to Saudi and doesn't join in the bowing and sword dancing and whatnot. What would the Saudis do, turn off the spigot in a fit of pique?

Do we make the Saudis put their hands over their hearts at the playing of our National Anthem?

I assume at a State Dinner for the Saudis they have to accept women in the room.

593 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:40pm

re: #543 avanti

Former Sec Def's Rumsfeld & Cheney each canned a number of programs too. Making the tough calls comes with the job. But from my non-military non-professional opinion, it was a bad call.

594 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:58pm

re: #574 Charles

Well, you're the one who brought up the "symbolism" of it,

And there's such a thing as being overly-literal. Yes, I "bow" every time I tie my shoe. But that's not what we're talking about here.

and it was clearly an act of deference

Well.... we've watched the same video clip, and just don't agree on the interpretation.

595 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:20:09pm

re: #584 Occasional Reader

It looks like a very cool weapon, but does it seem wise for Alcoholics Anonymous to be involved in this sort of thing?

That's so it will fall under the rubric of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (which always sounded like a great weekend getaway to me).

596 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:20:17pm

re: #584 Occasional Reader

It looks like a very cool weapon, but does it seem wise for Alcoholics Anonymous to be involved in this sort of thing?

The AA-12 Automatic Shotgun is very effective for shooting those pink elephants that have an annoying habit of appearing......
/

597 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:20:28pm

re: #581 CyanSnowHawk

Was that one of the Fred Scuttle bits?

I don't know; I just dimly recall that portion of the skit.

598 Killian Bundy  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:20:39pm

Today on Glenn Beck: FEMA detention camps.

/I [expletive deleted] you not

599 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:20:47pm

re: #573 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, let's not get hasty here. If you threw one of those hard enough, it could put out an eye!

Projectile! Missile!

Remember that lady that was charged with trowing a missile? It was a cup of soda (or pop).

600 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:10pm

re: #565 Occasional Reader

= "bow to the Emperor"... oh noes!

No, = 10,000 years (to the Emperor)

601 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:20pm

re: #595 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

That's so it will fall under the rubric of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (which always sounded like a great weekend getaway to me).

ANSWER ,,,

Vodka Martini
Marlboros
Glock

602 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:20pm

re: #593 Kenneth

Former Sec Def's Rumsfeld & Cheney each canned a number of programs too. Making the tough calls comes with the job. But from my non-military non-professional opinion, it was a bad call.

IMNO the Crusader Artillery System should not have been cut. First new thing in artillery in 40 or 50 years.

603 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:34pm

re: #590 Honorary Yooper

Ewe have to access it from the rear.


Baaaaad boy!

604 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:47pm

re: #598 Killian Bundy

Today on Glenn Beck: FEMA detention camps.

/I [expletive deleted] you not

Glenn Beck's jumped the whale shark many times over now.

605 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:52pm

re: #564 Gus 802

Just grab a handful of bullets and throw it against the house!

//

Armalite AR-Slingshot, 5.56mm NATO

606 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:54pm

So apparently the Saudis chant "verses" during the sword dance. Anyone know what they are?

I found this comment while googling:

The Ardah [sword dance] is not performed by most Saudi’s. It is primarily a dance from Najed. There are many folk dances that are performed in places like Hijaz. The Saudi government has banned many of those dances destroying the local heritage in many of the provinces in favor of Najdi culture. A good example is Hijazi Mozmar dance which was banned for years and even today it is only allowed by special permission.

So our Presidents are participating in a kind of Najdi cultural chauvinism, on top of it all?

607 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:59pm

re: #595 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

That's so it will fall under the rubric of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (which always sounded like a great weekend getaway to me).

There was a t-shirt that said "Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government bureau".

608 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:22:13pm

Shit Joe Biden thru out the first ball in Baltimore. Actually was almost a strike?

609 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:22:23pm

re: #602 jcm

IMNO the Crusader Artillery System should not have been cut. First new thing in artillery in 40 or 50 years.

Well, the "Crusader" would have doubtlessly offended our muslim allies
%P%

610 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:22:29pm

re: #600 OldLineTexan

No, = 10,000 years (to the Emperor)

Damn, those Japanese have some tough sentencing guidelines.

611 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:22:46pm
612 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:22:57pm
613 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:02pm

re: #602 jcm

IMNO the Crusader Artillery System should not have been cut. First new thing in artillery in 40 or 50 years.

AIIIEEEEEEE! OFFENSIVE!

614 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:02pm

re: #608 Nevergiveup

Shit Joe Biden thru out the first ball in Baltimore. Actually was almost a strike?

Boooos? Cheers?

615 Desert Dog  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:14pm

re: #596 LGoPs

The AA-12 Automatic Shotgun is very effective for shooting those pink elephants that have an annoying habit of appearing......
/

You could take out the entire herd is short order with this gun and the variety of shells that it can handle

Youtube Video
616 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:27pm

re: #608 Nevergiveup

Shit Joe Biden thru out the first ball in Baltimore. Actually was almost a strike?

I'll bet Obama throws like a girl. (And not one of those girl softball players that really do know how to throw either.)

617 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:28pm

re: #605 ArchangelMichael

Armalite AR-Slingshot, 5.56mm NATO

Perfect for the UN troops. The French Army couldn't do without 'em. //

618 Killian Bundy  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:31pm

re: #602 jcm

IMNO the Crusader Artillery System should not have been cut. First new thing in artillery in 40 or 50 years.

It was awesome.

/not very transportable though

619 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:32pm

re: #614 loppyd

Boooos? Cheers?

? I caught it late.

620 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:34pm

re: #614 loppyd

Boooos? Cheers?

I don't think the baseball can do either!

621 jester6  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:41pm

re: #598 Killian Bundy

Don't jump to conclusions.

He asked the people at Popular Mechanics who debunked the troofers to help him look into this FEMA Detention Camps. He is planning on having them on for regular segments on black helicopters, UN troops and the Trans American Highway.

622 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:23:44pm

OK, you aircraft experts, a question. A while back I read that the development of unmanned fighter/bombers was being held back by the natural bias toward fighter pilots.
The theory went that a pilot with the right video displays could better fly a drone from a seat miles away from the combat. You could then build a plane without need creature comforts of human pilot and design a plane only limited by the strength of the air frame. The remote pilot could execute 15G turns and the like to evade the enemy. I thought some large, high performance pilotless planes were on the drawing boards, but not that popular with the flyboys. Please educate me.

623 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:24:01pm

re: #574 Charles

At least Obama didn't kiss the bastard.

Very, very true.
And Bush Sr., Bush Jr. et al are a bunch of bought and sold oil whores beyond anything that Obama can ever hope to achieve.

624 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:24:17pm

re: #606 godfrey

So our Presidents are participating in a kind of Najdi cultural chauvinism, on top of it all?

Yes, if they wanted to be less chauvinistic they would have to do a scabbard dance too.

//

625 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:24:26pm

re: #616 CyanSnowHawk

I'll bet Obama throws like a girl effete metrosexual hipster.

Like you said, some girls can really throw!

626 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:24:41pm

re: #614 loppyd

Boooos? Cheers?

I'd suspect cheers since it's Baltimore. It's not Philadelphia, where they boo Santa Claus.

627 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:24:49pm

re: #589 sattv4u2

Are you the POTUS? There are different protocols for different people -- what's "polite" for a businessman to do in Japan upon greeting someone, isn't the same for a POTUS. (there's an entire State Department Protocol Office). Historically, Presidents never bowed or showed deference to royalty...(hand shaking OK; bowing, not OK).

628 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:24:54pm

re: #589 sattv4u2

again ,,please see my 500 and 509

Ok, but I said somewhat customary. My dealings have all been in the States & some Japanese shake hands, while others bow.

629 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:25:01pm

re: #618 Killian Bundy

It was awesome.

/not very transportable though

I thought (but don't remember) they could put two on a C-17.
Or did it get too fat?

630 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:25:21pm
"The United States has been enriched by Muslim Americans. Many other Americans have Muslims in their family, or have lived in a Muslim-majority country. I know, because I am one of them."
- Barack Hussein Obama, 6 April 2009, Istanbul Turkey

Oh dear, that phrasing is open to interpretation.

631 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:25:24pm

Well Jeter is getting boos.

632 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:25:37pm

re: #621 jester6

Don't jump to conclusions.

He asked the people at Popular Mechanics who debunked the troofers to help him look into this FEMA Detention Camps. He is planning on having them on for regular segments on black helicopters, UN troops and the Trans American Highway.

The story behind the story ,,, thanks

633 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:25:39pm

re: #621 jester6

Don't jump to conclusions.

He asked the people at Popular Mechanics who debunked the troofers to help him look into this FEMA Detention Camps. He is planning on having them on for regular segments on black helicopters, UN troops and the Trans American Highway.

I suspect Glenn Beck will be getting an answer on the black helos, UN troops, and Trans-American Hwy that he did not want nor bargain for.

634 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:25:43pm

re: #622 avanti

The theory went that a pilot with the right video displays could better fly a drone from a seat miles away from the combat.

A problem I could see right away; prone to ECM.

635 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:25:54pm

re: #598 Killian Bundy

Today on Glenn Beck: FEMA detention camps.

/I [expletive deleted] you not

Tomorrow my gf who is actually one of those alien reptilian overlords that secretly rule the world will be on to discuss Niburu, 2012, and what types of non-perishable foods are good for the space trip to avoid the coming apocalypse.

//

636 Killian Bundy  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:26:03pm

re: #621 jester6

He asked the people at Popular Mechanics who debunked the troofers to help him look into this FEMA Detention Camps.

Why does he need to "look into" something that's bull[expletive]?

/why doesn't he investigate unicorns?

637 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:26:05pm

re: #622 avanti

OK, you aircraft experts, a question. A while back I read that the development of unmanned fighter/bombers was being held back by the natural bias toward fighter pilots.
The theory went that a pilot with the right video displays could better fly a drone from a seat miles away from the combat. You could then build a plane without need creature comforts of human pilot and design a plane only limited by the strength of the air frame. The remote pilot could execute 15G turns and the like to evade the enemy. I thought some large, high performance pilotless planes were on the drawing boards, but not that popular with the flyboys. Please educate me.

That sounds about right. People don't join the Air Force so they can "fly" remote controlled planes. People join the Air Force - and Navy, and Marines - to climb in a real plane & really fly.

638 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:26:55pm

re: #619 Nevergiveup

? I caught it late.

Ted Kennedy was supposed to throw out the first pitch at Fenway today, but the game was postponed until tomorrow due the monsoon we are getting in the Boston area.

I'm going to sit on my hands instead of commenting on the Kennedy angle.

639 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:09pm

re: #627 J.S.

Are you the POTUS? There are different protocols for different people -- what's "polite" for a businessman to do in Japan upon greeting someone, isn't the same for a POTUS. (there's an entire State Department Protocol Office). Historically, Presidents never bowed or showed deference to royalty...(hand shaking OK; bowing, not OK).

So you're saying that both Bushs' (if you consider it a bow) and Obamas protocol offices fucked up?

640 Neutral President  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:10pm

re: #634 Occasional Reader

And conventional jamming too I would think.

641 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:14pm

re: #602 jcm

IMNO the Crusader Artillery System should not have been cut. First new thing in artillery in 40 or 50 years.

Mind linking it? I like things that go boom.

642 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:18pm

Must-get-cigarettes. bbl

643 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:34pm

re: #633 Honorary Yooper

and Trans-American Hwy

The worst part of the Trans-American Highway will of course be the reckless proliferation of "South of the Border" signs.

644 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:39pm

re: #631 Nevergiveup

Well Jeter is getting boos.

Hee hee.

Wait until A-Fraud comes to Fenway.

645 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:40pm

re: #638 loppyd

Ted Kennedy was supposed to throw out the first pitch at Fenway today, but the game was postponed until tomorrow due the monsoon we are getting in the Boston area.

I'm going to sit on my hands instead of commenting on the Kennedy angle.

I thought that was health permit-able?

646 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:42pm

re: #346 Kenneth

Gates made this announcement, but I would have to think Obama directed him to do so. The US budget is stretched to the limits and then some, so something had to go. In my opinion, that something should have been a whole raft of stimulus spending on pork. The high tech industries supported by the F-22 production could have benefited by continued "stimulus" spending.

Well, yeah, of course. But having been married to an AF pilot for many moons, I can tell you that never, never happens. My husband has flown sorry old shit since we've been married with avionics and maintenance issues that would get an entire civilian airline grounded for good.

We desperately need new tankers, and have needed them for years. The Airbus/Northrup Grumman plane is a good one, and would be built in Mobile, Alabama. But the democrats want to force the USAF to buy the one from Boeing, to keep the economy humming for those moonbats in Seattle.

etc, etc

647 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:50pm

re: #634 Occasional Reader

A problem I could see right away; prone to ECM.

So is any fly by wire....

648 DaddyG  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:27:54pm

re: #635 ArchangelMichael

Tomorrow my gf who is actually one of those alien reptilian overlords that secretly rule the world will be on to discuss Niburu, 2012, and what types of non-perishable foods are good for the space trip to avoid the coming apocalypse.

//

Nice try. The last time I bought that line the comet never came and I had a dozen dead guys in purple robes cluttering up my moms basement the next morning.
//

649 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:28:04pm

re: #644 loppyd

Hee hee.

Wait until A-Fraud comes to Fenway.

He lead off season with single up middle

650 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:28:19pm

re: #630 Kenneth

Surely Obama knows that the soft approach isn't going to win him friends. Muslim-on-Muslim violence is epidemic. Showing yourself to be a pal doesn't get you much. If you show you're pals with one group, there are plenty of other Muslim groups who will take offense and try to kill you.

But it sounds nice and civil, and it scores points with the Arabists in the EU.

651 jwb7605  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:28:23pm

re: #636 Killian Bundy

Why does he need to "look into" something that's bull[expletive]?

/why doesn't he investigate unicorns?

IMHO he's trying to bring a few people back to reality. Half or more of everybody I know lends dignity to one or more of those tin-foil theories.

In my case, Waco. That was just too strange to justify.

652 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:28:39pm

re: #626 Honorary Yooper

I'd suspect cheers since it's Baltimore. It's not Philadelphia, where they boo Santa Claus.

That was one time, forty years ago - we've done a whole lot worse since! ;)

653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:28:50pm

re: #631 Nevergiveup

I've never followed baseball for an entire season...am tempted to try this year. Don't even have a "team".

Who's expected to be entertaining this year (no homers please)?

654 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:28:57pm

re: #644 loppyd

Hee hee.

Wait until A-Fraud comes to Fenway.

Yeah, I can see A-Roid being booed in a lot of places this year.

655 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:29:06pm

re: #626 Honorary Yooper

I'd suspect cheers since it's Baltimore. It's not Philadelphia, where they boo Santa Claus.

John Kerry was greeted by thundering boos when he threw out the first pitch at Fenway on the eve of the DNC in 2004.

I was there. It was.........AWESOME.

656 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:29:26pm

re: #655 loppyd

Did it actually cross the plate?

657 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:29:28pm

re: #647 Buck

So is any fly by wire....

Why would fly by wire be particularly prone to ECM?

658 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:29:34pm

re: #630 Kenneth

Oh dear, that phrasing is open to interpretation.

I think he is just teasing the "Obama is a muslim crowd"....you know baiting them for fun...

659 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:29:38pm

re: #653 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've never followed baseball for an entire season...am tempted to try this year. Don't even have a "team".

Who's expected to be entertaining this year (no homers please)?

Yanks, Red Sox, Tampa Bay, Cubs

660 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:29:46pm

re: #622 avanti

OK, you aircraft experts, a question. A while back I read that the development of unmanned fighter/bombers was being held back by the natural bias toward fighter pilots.
The theory went that a pilot with the right video displays could better fly a drone from a seat miles away from the combat. You could then build a plane without need creature comforts of human pilot and design a plane only limited by the strength of the air frame. The remote pilot could execute 15G turns and the like to evade the enemy. I thought some large, high performance pilotless planes were on the drawing boards, but not that popular with the flyboys. Please educate me.

UCAV's (Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles) are being designed; certainly pilots want to be in the battle, but I believe the work is just being done carefully. Flying a group of these is trickier than flying a single UAV; they need to stay out of each others' way as well as out of the way of enemy aircraft. And you need to be sure someone is in complete control of weapons release.

661 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:30:10pm

re: #622 avanti

OK, you aircraft experts, a question. A while back I read that the development of unmanned fighter/bombers was being held back by the natural bias toward fighter pilots.
The theory went that a pilot with the right video displays could better fly a drone from a seat miles away from the combat. You could then build a plane without need creature comforts of human pilot and design a plane only limited by the strength of the air frame. The remote pilot could execute 15G turns and the like to evade the enemy. I thought some large, high performance pilotless planes were on the drawing boards, but not that popular with the flyboys. Please educate me.

UAV are the future. The F-22 is likely to be the last manned fighter, but not guaranteed.

No matter how high resolution the displays, there is something to having a pair of Mark 1 Mod 1 eyeballs and a human brain on the scene.

The other thing datalinks can be disrupted. While it's much harder to disrupted a self contained hardened vehicle like a manned aircraft.

UAVs will become more and more common. It will be a while before you can take the person out of the loop on the scene.

662 jwb7605  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:30:20pm

re: #657 Occasional Reader

Why would fly by wire be particularly prone to ECM?

fly by wire is totally electronic.
Therefore sensitive to Electronic Counter Measures.

663 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:30:23pm

re: #646 funky chicken

US security takes a back seat to pork barrel spending & buying votes.

664 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:30:27pm

re: #655 loppyd

John Kerry was greeted by thundering boos when he threw out the first pitch at Fenway on the eve of the DNC in 2004.

I was there. It was.........AWESOME.

Shame that hasn't carried over to votes yet.

665 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:30:52pm

re: #639 sattv4u2

I have no idea if the fault lies with the Protocol Office (it could be that the protocol person did not explain or properly inform the POTUS as to proper proceedings when greeting monarchs), then again, maybe it was made clear, yet Obama chose to ignore it -- who knows? I don't know..

666 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:31:34pm

re: #630 Kenneth

Oh dear, that phrasing is open to interpretation.

Could this guy suck up anymore? Maybe we are just fortunate that he did not prostrate himself in front of the King.

667 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:31:45pm

re: #622 avanti

OK, you aircraft experts, a question. A while back I read that the development of unmanned fighter/bombers was being held back by the natural bias toward fighter pilots.
The theory went that a pilot with the right video displays could better fly a drone from a seat miles away from the combat. You could then build a plane without need creature comforts of human pilot and design a plane only limited by the strength of the air frame. The remote pilot could execute 15G turns and the like to evade the enemy. I thought some large, high performance pilotless planes were on the drawing boards, but not that popular with the flyboys. Please educate me.

There are many technical issues to be worked out before we can produce something like that.

668 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:32:04pm

re: #662 jwb7605

fly by wire is totally electronic.
Therefore sensitive to Electronic Counter Measures.

I've never heard of any concern regarding ECM actually interfering with flight controls (which, presumably, are hardened against such an attack). I may be wrong.

669 jester6  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:32:13pm

re: #622 avanti

Those pilotless planes are on the drawing board. They are running into two problems.

First, almost every general officer in the Air Force is/was a fighter or bomber pilot. There is obvious and understandable (but perhaps wrong) institutional bias to piloted combat platforms.

Two, procurement of complex weapon systems takes decades. The F22 that Gates just canceled can be traced back to the ATF program started in 1981.

670 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:32:17pm

re: #646 funky chicken

Well, yeah, of course. But having been married to an AF pilot for many moons, I can tell you that never, never happens. My husband has flown sorry old shit since we've been married with avionics and maintenance issues that would get an entire civilian airline grounded for good.

We desperately need new tankers, and have needed them for years. The Airbus/Northrup Grumman plane is a good one, and would be built in Mobile, Alabama. But the democrats want to force the USAF to buy the one from Boeing, to keep the economy humming for those moonbats in Seattle.

etc, etc

I do have a problem with the Europeans controlling our aircraft parts, though. What if we needed something and they decided we shouldn't have it, because we supported Israel and they didn't? (I know, fat chance that 0 would support Israel...)

671 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:32:20pm
672 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:32:42pm

re: #656 godfrey

Did it actually cross the plate?

Dirt ball.

He claimed he was trying not to scare the Marine (Iraq combat vet) he was throwing to.

"I held back," Mr. Kerry told reporters early this morning, on the plane ride after the game. "He was very nervous. I tried to lob it gently."

673 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:32:45pm

OT

How Google moved the English/Welsh border

Video inside a Google data center

And for the flyboys and girls: The view from a MiG-25 at 65,000 feet

674 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:32:50pm

re: #310 lawhawk

The C-17 is a heavy lift transport. The Boeing/Airbus tanker deal is a separate program; that's to provide long range refueling capabilities and replace the older KC-135 airframes.

LOL, um, I'm quite familiar with both planes, thanks very much.

But if they are going to kill the C-17, they'd better have a backup plane in case it's needed. The airbus tanker would be able to sub for C-17s in a pinch.

675 JHW  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:33:19pm

re: #602 jcm

IMNO the Crusader Artillery System should not have been cut. First new thing in artillery in 40 or 50 years.

Maybe we could license these? I have no idea how effective they are.
Atmos 2000, 155 SP artillery, from Israel

676 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:33:25pm

re: #661 jcm

The other thing datalinks can be disrupted. While it's much harder to disrupted a self contained hardened vehicle like a manned aircraft.

Yep, that's what I was driving at. You HAVE to have a data transmission stream with a UAV for it to be effective; and that's a vulnerability.

677 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:33:40pm

re: #657 Occasional Reader

Fly by wire is computer controlled. You guide the computer, but the computer actually guides the plane. The computer is even programmed to ignore joy stick movements it thinks are a mistake...

Electronic countermeasures, that might disrupt the computer would make the plane into a flying brick....

Of course if there is no one in the plane.... it would be smaller, and harder to disrupt.

678 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:33:48pm

re: #641 ConservatismNow!

Mind linking it? I like things that go boom.

Crusader 155mm Self Propelled Howitzer, USA
Automated supply from the service vehicle.
Auto loading.
Powder disks instead of bags for more precise charges.
By varying the angle and charge one tube could put 8 rounds on the target simultaneously.

Youtube Video
679 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:33:51pm

re: #666 opnion

He could make wudu & salah...

680 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:34:09pm

re: #664 Honorary Yooper

Shame that hasn't carried over to votes yet.

He lost that election....now he's going to follow in Teddy K's Senator For Life footsteps.

681 JustABill  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:34:19pm

re: #647 Buck

So is any fly by wire....

Sure, but not nearly to the same degree. I mean almost anything electronic is vulnerable to something like an EMP. Something that is receiving radio commands could be jammed/hacked far more easily.

682 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:34:35pm
If you aren’t familiar with Tim’s work, he’s one of the most inventive fantasists in American literature, and I highly recommend his books.

Wow, that's pretty cool, Tim Powers reads LGF.

I read "On Stranger Tides" way back in the day, which I thought was great. I will definitely have to check out his other stuff.

683 sarr  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:34:39pm

I know what i saw, and Obama bows to the King. Why would anyone continue to argue otherwise. Not sure it means a whole lot, and i don't care. However, he bows. I feel like i am getting the ole clinton, what is is.......

684 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:35:09pm

re: #671 buzzsawmonkey

He's still a little young to contract the prostrate cancer.

Anyway, I think the Palestinians are the ones who need to get their prostates checked (not that I'm volunteering). Given the lavish pronouncements at Oslo, Wye River, etc., they seem to suffer from frequent "You're A Nation!".

685 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:35:10pm
686 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:35:32pm

re: #636 Killian Bundy

Why does he need to "look into" something that's bull[expletive]?

/why doesn't he investigate unicorns?

Look how excited the FEMA camp believers were at the first national mention of their fantasy by Beck last month.

FEMA.

687 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:36:03pm

Canadian artillery in Af'stan.

688 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:36:16pm

re: #685 buzzsawmonkey

While King Abdullah sings,

I've got you...
under my thumb

689 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:36:46pm
690 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:36:55pm

re: #687 Kenneth

Canadian artillery in Af'stan.

Mr. Green in the Conservatory with a candlestick.

691 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:36:56pm

The United States said Monday it would donate 50,000 dollars in emergency aid to Italy after a powerful earthquake killed at least 100 people.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Someone posted this before. I thought it was a joke?

692 jester6  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:37:11pm

re: #636 Killian Bundy

Why does he need to "look into" something that's bull[expletive]?

/why doesn't he investigate unicorns?

Well, I know of at least one guy in Pittsburgh who bought into this type of bull[expletive] and the only people talking about it were the folks who hang out at Stormfront.

Like it or not there are plenty of people who buy into this crap. It's in human nature to invent explanationa for things people do not understand. Apollo pulling the sun across the sky with his chariot is not that different from the New World Order to some poorly educated fool who just lost his job.

Sunshine is a great disinfectant.

693 calcajun  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:37:14pm

Charles,

You forgot "Drawing of the Dark"

I know this has been said countless times, but it bears repeating. Anyone who desires to see BHO "fail" is a fool. I, like many here, did not vote for the man, but he is OUR President. Moreover, wanting BHO to fail means you want immediate political satisfaction at the cost of long-term damage to the office. This country cannot afford a failed president as that will mean more power in the hands of the Congress--and elsewhere. Andrew Johnson was a failed president and as a result, there was no strong leadership in the White House until TR nearly 40 years later.

694 godfrey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:37:28pm

re: #691 Nevergiveup

That's just the embassy in Italy. Surely there will be more than that?

695 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:37:41pm

re: #681 JustABill

Sure, but not nearly to the same degree. I mean almost anything electronic is vulnerable to something like an EMP. Something that is receiving radio commands could be jammed/hacked far more easily.

Sure, but less costly... so you could have more of them. You could also have built in smarts to continue the mission (much like the cruise missile today) if communications are disrupted.

696 Kenneth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:38:09pm

Another cool photo of Canadian artillery in action.

697 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:38:12pm

re: #677 Buck

Fly by wire is computer controlled. You guide the computer, but the computer actually guides the plane. The computer is even programmed to ignore joy stick movements it thinks are a mistake...

Electronic countermeasures, that might disrupt the computer would make the plane into a flying brick....

Of course if there is no one in the plane.... it would be smaller, and harder to disrupt.

Planes are hardened. Faraday cages, hardened electronics, etc....

698 Desert Dog  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:38:40pm

re: #678 jcm

Crusader 155mm Self Propelled Howitzer, USA
Automated supply from the service vehicle.
Auto loading.
Powder disks instead of bags for more precise charges.
By varying the angle and charge one tube could put 8 rounds on the target simultaneously.

[Video]

These are cool too

Youtube Video
699 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:38:41pm

re: #661 jcm

UAV are the future. The F-22 is likely to be the last manned fighter, but not guaranteed.

No matter how high resolution the displays, there is something to having a pair of Mark 1 Mod 1 eyeballs and a human brain on the scene.

The other thing datalinks can be disrupted. While it's much harder to disrupted a self contained hardened vehicle like a manned aircraft.

UAVs will become more and more common. It will be a while before you can take the person out of the loop on the scene.

Any chance it might just be our on board computer against the enemy pilot with just a human override ? If missile can find and kill on there own just using sensors, maybe eyeballs will be old school ?

700 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:38:46pm

re: #665 J.S.

I have no idea if the fault lies with the Protocol Office (it could be that the protocol person did not explain or properly inform the POTUS as to proper proceedings when greeting monarchs), then again, maybe it was made clear, yet Obama chose to ignore it -- who knows? I don't know..

Could you supply us with a copy of this alleged "protocol" to which you refer?

No? Of course not, you even state "I don't know."

701 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:38:52pm

re: #681 JustABill

Sure, but not nearly to the same degree. I mean almost anything electronic is vulnerable to something like an EMP. Something that is receiving radio commands could be jammed/hacked far more easily.

Just knowing the frequency alone would allow it to be jammed, but that takes some very very sophisticated and powerful equipment. Hacking it would be much much harder. Also, anothing thing to keep in mind is that the range for this would be fairly short as in a few hundred miles. You could have near entire AO range if the pilots were in an AWACS.

702 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:38:58pm

re: #694 godfrey

That's just the embassy in Italy. Surely there will be more than that?

I hope

703 calcajun  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:39:13pm

re: #693 calcajun

Of course, we do get to make fun of his gaffes as well as those of his staff. I mean-- an I-pod for HRH. He really does have a tin ear, doesn't he.

704 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:39:14pm

re: #22 Dianna

I like most of Powers' work.

Though his penchant for beating up his characters sometimes makes me shake my head.

There's always Robin Hobb. /

705 loppyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:39:16pm

Support Falls For Axing Heads of Bailed-Out Companies


Forty-three percent (43%) of adults still say the federal government should replace the senior managers of any company that receives taxpayer funding to stay afloat, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. That’s down from 59% in December, a 16-point drop.
Among investors, 40% now say the managers should be replaced, but 31% disagree.
706 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:39:26pm

re: #691 Nevergiveup

Obama foreign policy in action.

707 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:39:54pm

re: #670 Kosh's Shadow

I do have a problem with the Europeans controlling our aircraft parts, though. What if we needed something and they decided we shouldn't have it, because we supported Israel and they didn't? (I know, fat chance that 0 would support Israel...)

Boeing has the same problem. The 767 that their proposal was based on is not entirely made in America. Both planes have comparable 'foreign content'.

708 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:39:58pm

re: #693 calcajun

I know this has been said countless times, but it bears repeating. Anyone who desires to see BHO "fail" is a fool.

And it has been said countless times, but bears repeating: That depends on the question of "fails at what?".

709 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:41:05pm
710 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:41:10pm

re: #697 jcm

Planes are hardened. Faraday cages, hardened electronics, etc....

Right, and no one could harden in the exact same way a pilot-less craft because?

Are Cruise Missiles "Hardened"?

711 nikis-knight  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:41:21pm

It seems to me that eyeballs on the scene will give an advantage for sometime; but bombers won't need that, will they? I could see some remote-controlled bombers with manned fighter escorts and unmanned sentry drones/back-up fighters being common tactics.

712 jjmckay1216  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:41:24pm

re: #435 zombie

ummmm, Zombie.... what page on ur site is that located at? I, ummm,errrr, wamted to do a lil research....

/

713 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:41:34pm

re: #704 Zimriel

There's always Robin Hobb. /

Nooooooo!

714 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:41:38pm

re: #696 Kenneth

Another cool photo of Canadian artillery in action.

Cool. Their guns make a big W when they fire.

715 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:41:48pm

re: #659 Nevergiveup

I was thinking "Mets". New ballpark and all. I can watch every Braves game.

716 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:42:03pm

re: #671 buzzsawmonkey

He's still a little young to contract the prostrate cancer.


Well the odds are if it ever happens it will be PROSTATE cancer.
Dictionary prostrate definition is to cast oneself face down in submission.
I think that he is safe from prostrate cancer.

717 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:42:40pm

re: #699 avanti

Any chance it might just be our on board computer against the enemy pilot with just a human override ? If missile can find and kill on there own just using sensors, maybe eyeballs will be old school ?

I think we'll get there in the not too distant future; and, as you point out, a UAV fighter by its nature would be able to do maneuvers that would kill or incapacitate a human pilot. But we're not there yet; and as someone pointed out above, think about the lead time involved for complex weapons systems.

718 jester6  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:42:41pm

re: #633 Honorary Yooper

I suspect Glenn Beck will be getting an answer on the black helos, UN troops, and Trans-American Hwy that he did not want nor bargain for.

You might be surprised to learn that he does not believe this stuff either. I have listened to him for years - long before he decided start playing near the fringes.

When POTUS tells US Bank CEOs that "My administration is the only thing standing between you and the pitchforks", he refuses to take back TARP money and SECTREAS is about to get power to remove corporate boards and executive leadership, black helicopters and UN troops are pretty boring.

719 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:42:56pm

re: #715 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I was thinking "Mets". New ballpark and all. I can watch every Braves game.

Yankees have a new ballpark also. Think Big!

721 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:43:26pm

re: #719 Nevergiveup

Yankees have a new ballpark also. Think Big!

One problem. They're the fucking Yankees.

722 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:43:44pm

re: #714 CyanSnowHawk

Cool. Their guns make a big W when they fire.

"It's buried underneath a big dubuhyuh!"

-Jimmy Durante

723 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:43:59pm

re: #721 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

One problem. They're the fucking Yankees.

Embrace the dark side.

724 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:44:24pm

re: #678 jcm

Crusader 155mm Self Propelled Howitzer, USA
Automated supply from the service vehicle.
Auto loading.
Powder disks instead of bags for more precise charges.
By varying the angle and charge one tube could put 8 rounds on the target simultaneously.

Youtube Video

From your article:
"United Defense has been awarded a contract to use technologies developed for the Crusader program to produce a lighter and more deployable Objective Force Cannon or Non-Line-of-Sight (NLOS) cannon. "Objective Force" is the working title for the US Army's long-term future combat force. The NLOS cannon is planned to be fielded in 2009."

Here's hoping they get that going.

725 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:45:02pm

re: #723 Nevergiveup

Embrace the dark side.

Together, we could rule the League as Father and Son!

726 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:45:07pm
727 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:45:22pm

My bottom line:
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Bush was such a thoroughly dhimmified oil whore to the Saudis that for Reps now to go after Obama for bowing to the Head Saudi Oil Honcho is just plain silly, because it highlights Bush's own yellow deferential conduct.

And it also refocuses attention on Bush's humiliating conduct, including his turning a blind eye to the Saudi connection to 9-11, and then for years repeating the insulting mime that Islam is the ROP.

728 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:45:53pm
729 ConservatismNow!  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:45:56pm

re: #714 CyanSnowHawk

Cool. Their guns make a big W when they fire.

The W stands for Diplomacy.

730 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:46:28pm

new thread --->

731 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:47:32pm

re: #728 buzzsawmonkey

The play on "prostrate" (bowing, as to the Saudi king) and "prostate" is the point.

Hmmm, missed it.

732 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:47:58pm

re: #720 lawhawk


Office of the Chief of Protocol at the Department of State.

Thank you lawhawk, but that link is just the Office website, I am asking for the particular document to support his allegation.

733 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:48:13pm

re: #727 Spare O'Lake

My bottom line:
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Bush was such a thoroughly dhimmified oil whore to the Saudis that for Reps now to go after Obama for bowing to the Head Saudi Oil Honcho is just plain silly, because it highlights Bush's own yellow deferential conduct.

And it also refocuses attention on Bush's humiliating conduct, including his turning a blind eye to the Saudi connection to 9-11, and then for years repeating the insulting mime that Islam is the ROP.

Updinged.

Right on...

And to add my favorite: "Islam means Peace"

Only in a language where Submission means Peace...

734 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:48:38pm

re: #699 avanti

Any chance it might just be our on board computer against the enemy pilot with just a human override ? If missile can find and kill on there own just using sensors, maybe eyeballs will be old school ?

It's getting closer all the time for certain.

It's the edge of the box that are the problem. Send X-plane against Y-target with Z-weapons. As long as it's straight forward.

It's the edges, the fog of war, the fuzzy logic areas that require a human. No computer is close to the judgments a human can make.

It's also getting closer to having a remote pilot, but that pilot is at the end of an electronic tether. Driving a Predator against Al-Qeada from Florida is one thing. Doing it against an electronically sophisticated adversary is entirely different.

735 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:49:50pm

re: #727 Spare O'Lake

My bottom line:
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Bush was such a thoroughly dhimmified oil whore to the Saudis that for Reps now to go after Obama for bowing to the Head Saudi Oil Honcho is just plain silly, because it highlights Bush's own yellow deferential conduct.

It's worse than "silly," it's intellectually dishonest and hypocritical.

736 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:50:03pm

re: #711 nikis-knight

It seems to me that eyeballs on the scene will give an advantage for sometime; but bombers won't need that, will they? I could see some remote-controlled bombers with manned fighter escorts and unmanned sentry drones/back-up fighters being common tactics.

That's what I was thinking. Punch the GPS coordinates of the target, select the bomb load, tell the computer to fly 100 feet off the deck for example and off it goes. Like you say, maybe covered by both piloted and remote fighters.

737 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:50:15pm

re: #728 buzzsawmonkey

The play on "prostrate" (bowing, as to the Saudi king) and "prostate" is the point.

And as it turns out, I badly misspelled "urination". Damn!

738 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:51:13pm

Bush strolling through the White House garden hand in hand with Abdullah:

Image: image690803x.jpg

This is so much better than what the evil Barack Obama did.

739 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:52:06pm

re: #736 avanti

Punch the GPS coordinates of the target, select the bomb load, tell the computer to fly 100 feet off the deck for example and off it goes.

That, we pretty much already have; it's a cruise missile.

Air to air combat, I think, is orders-of-magnitude more complex.

740 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:53:00pm

re: #728 buzzsawmonkey

The play on "prostrate" (bowing, as to the Saudi king) and "prostate" is the point.

Pro-State cancer is a malady that normally afflicts Democrats in their zeal for state control over everything....
/

741 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:53:46pm

re: #737 Occasional Reader

And as it turns out, I badly misspelled "urination". Damn!

It's just urinalysis that was wrong........

742 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:53:57pm

Bush sharing a quiet chat in the White House with Prince Bandar:

Image: bandar-in-jeans.jpg

743 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:54:30pm

re: #742 Charles

Bush sharing a quiet chat in the White House with Prince Bandar:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Also known as Bandar Bush

744 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:54:59pm

re: #710 Buck

Right, and no one could harden in the exact same way a pilot-less craft because?

Are Cruise Missiles "Hardened"?

The UAVs have an electronic tether. That could be disrupted.

Cruise Missiles yes, but once fired they proceed to the target, they don't have the tether. They're more like a ballistic missile or artillery shell, once fired that's it.

The final issue is UAV's can't think outside the box. Simple scenario: UAV is sent against a target carrying a person or WMD at X coordinates in a box truck. Meanwhile the bad guys have moved two blocks over and are using a donkey cart. An strict autonomous vehicle will have trouble with that, all the possible permutations of a combat situation can't be programmed for. But a human pilot has the ability to put 2 and 2 together and zap the donkey cart.

745 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:55:15pm

Bush having a good old time dancing with Saudis and swords:

Image: bush_sword_dancing.jpg

So much better. What Obama did was evil.

746 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:55:49pm

Gotta run.....

747 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:58:41pm

re: #622 avanti

OK, you aircraft experts, a question. A while back I read that the development of unmanned fighter/bombers was being held back by the natural bias toward fighter pilots.
The theory went that a pilot with the right video displays could better fly a drone from a seat miles away from the combat. You could then build a plane without need creature comforts of human pilot and design a plane only limited by the strength of the air frame. The remote pilot could execute 15G turns and the like to evade the enemy. I thought some large, high performance pilotless planes were on the drawing boards, but not that popular with the flyboys. Please educate me.

Pilots get pissed off by autopilots, too. There was a huge power struggle over landing the Shuttle Orbiter manually vs. autopilot.

I have NO doubt that logging hours on a drone =! flying to a pilot.

So now it's time to let all the wannabees (like me!) that were washed out for physical reasons before they could even begin to dream of being a jet jockey (in my case, eyesight) fly a DESK! LOL.

748 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:59:47pm

re: #745 Charles

Bush having a good old time dancing with Saudis and swords:

[Link: www.bobcesca.com...]

So much better. What Obama did was evil.

Seems to me that both Bush & Obama overdid their deference.

749 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:00:12pm

re: #748 opnion

Seems to me that both Bush & Obama overdid their deference.

Barry is too young to be allowed to run with scissors or dance with swords.

/

750 opnion  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:01:21pm

re: #749 OldLineTexan

Barry is too young to be allowed to run with scissors or dance with swords.

/

True

751 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:01:51pm

re: #748 opnion

That, of course, is the whole point.

Yet some remain selectively outraged at Obama, this points to bias.

752 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:02:05pm

re: #693 calcajun

Anyone who desires to see BHO "fail" is a fool. I, like many here, did not vote for the man, but he is OUR President. Moreover, wanting BHO to fail means you want immediate political satisfaction at the cost of long-term damage to the office. This country cannot afford a failed president as that will mean more power in the hands of the Congress--and elsewhere. Andrew Johnson was a failed president and as a result, there was no strong leadership in the White House until TR nearly 40 years later.

Your example is false. Ulysses Grant had executive power beyond modern imagining: he was the absolute dictator over the South, under the banner of "Reconstruction". Where Grant failed, it was because he personally failed (and a few iffy Court cases, like Cruikshank, and that Colfax affair). His failure wasn't because his office was weakened relative to Congress and it wasn't because of Johnson.

As for strong leadership, in some cases we nonetheless had effective leadership (Grover Cleveland), and in some cases the President was arguably strong enough by modern standards (McKinley).

And these 40 years were times of great economy prosperity in the US. I wish we were "weak" like we were "weak" back then.

Finally as to TR, I can only reiterate that I am not a fan of Rooseveltian / Bismarckian "strength" under one "great" leader. He bravely and strongly led us into a bloody war in the Phillippines! Hooray!

753 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:02:34pm

re: #744 jcm

The UAVs have an electronic tether. That could be disrupted.

Cruise Missiles yes, but once fired they proceed to the target, they don't have the tether. They're more like a ballistic missile or artillery shell, once fired that's it.

The final issue is UAV's can't think outside the box. Simple scenario: UAV is sent against a target carrying a person or WMD at X coordinates in a box truck. Meanwhile the bad guys have moved two blocks over and are using a donkey cart. An strict autonomous vehicle will have trouble with that, all the possible permutations of a combat situation can't be programmed for. But a human pilot has the ability to put 2 and 2 together and zap the donkey cart.

Yes, but Hybrid UAVs... controlled by humans safely on the ground CAN think outside the box. AND if the tether is broken can at least try (ala cruise missile) to complete the mission or return home. With new satellite eyes in the sky.... and ultra compressed radio instructions sent via satellite.... UAVs can do a lot more than you seem to give them credit for.

BTW, the first example of UAVs? Israel sent a bunch of Jet looking UAVs over Lebanon, and got the boys on the ground to fire anti aircraft missiles at them. Net result the missile banks were quickly identified and taken out empty by pilots safely miles away.

754 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:03:15pm

re: #735 Charles

It's worse than "silly," it's intellectually dishonest and hypocritical.

In their haste for the early realization of his full dhimmification potential so as to be better able to criticize him, the Reps have jumped the gun.

755 Emerald  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:03:22pm

If this type of outrage is typical of the party, then the Republicans are screwed.

Obama's flaws are legion and legitimate. He can't handle the economy, he's endangering the free market system, he's insulted allies, he's messing up on foreign affairs, and the list goes on. To go batshit over something so trivial only helps Obama by making him a martyr. It paints his detractors as being unfair and unbalanced.

756 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:03:37pm

In short, calcajun may or may not have his heart in the right place, but his #693 does not make the right case.

757 Summer Seale  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:04:33pm

The thing which scares me at the moment about the Conservative meltdown is this insane dogmatic pressure to be a "pure" Conservative. I don't think that I have to spell out how predilections of purity can often get way out of hand and enter into the wildest and most dangerous fantasies in human experience.

To me, that is the essence of what is happening right now in the Conservative movement. It isn't a pretty thing to watch at all.

I hereby proclaim myself to be a perfectly impure Conservative and Liberal, both. I'm proud of this human dichotomy because it is what makes every one of us human.

I think that's a bit higher on the moral level than any dogmatic approach to purity to a singular philosophy.

758 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:06:39pm

re: #444 rawmuse

Bowing is not required to receive a medal.
Any number of videos are around where the President decorated a service person, who stands at attention, while the President unclasps the medal, stands to the back of the recipient, and fastens it around his or her neck.

Yes, and receiving a medal from the Saudi Royals is not required in the first place.

759 Soona'  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:07:29pm

re: #693 calcajun

Charles,

You forgot "Drawing of the Dark"

I know this has been said countless times, but it bears repeating. Anyone who desires to see BHO "fail" is a fool. I, like many here, did not vote for the man, but he is OUR President. Moreover, wanting BHO to fail means you want immediate political satisfaction at the cost of long-term damage to the office. This country cannot afford a failed president as that will mean more power in the hands of the Congress--and elsewhere. Andrew Johnson was a failed president and as a result, there was no strong leadership in the White House until TR nearly 40 years later.

I totally disagree with your premise. I want the zero to fail in enacting his stalinist policies. I don't feel he has the interests of the US in any of his plans. Fuck 'im!

760 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:09:25pm
761 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:10:26pm

re: #758 Buck

I agree Buck, and whats more, rawmuse is also correct in pointing out that bowing is not necessary to receive a medal, yet in this case, Bush not only bowed his head, but he stood at attention with his hands by his side in a deferential fashion.

What Obama did was far more casual and spontaneous.

762 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:11:22pm

re: #748 opnion

Seems to me that both Bush & Obama overdid their deference.

And I believe that's the point. Decades worth of Presidents have done this.

763 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:13:34pm

re: #762 Sharmuta

Yep, and it is a small, insignificant part of the greater problem of decades of kow-towing to the Saudis in far more tangible matters than protocol and personality.

764 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:15:57pm

re: #744 jcm

The UAVs have an electronic tether. That could be disrupted.

Cruise Missiles yes, but once fired they proceed to the target, they don't have the tether. They're more like a ballistic missile or artillery shell, once fired that's it.

The final issue is UAV's can't think outside the box. Simple scenario: UAV is sent against a target carrying a person or WMD at X coordinates in a box truck. Meanwhile the bad guys have moved two blocks over and are using a donkey cart. An strict autonomous vehicle will have trouble with that, all the possible permutations of a combat situation can't be programmed for. But a human pilot has the ability to put 2 and 2 together and zap the donkey cart.

Yes, it's the old "how much AI vs Human in the loop" conundrum.

765 UberInfidel67  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:17:49pm

re: #602 jcm

Crusader Artillery System ..the name alone is probably why it was cut. lol

766 hous bin pharteen  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:20:00pm

I wondered how long this would take. Not long. Now we bash Bush at how he dealt with Saudi Arabia. And how its the same thing as what Obama does. Yeah Charles, we are just being nasty to that nice guy, Obama.

767 Summer Seale  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:20:32pm

re: #760 buzzsawmonkey

Just adopt "conservative" as an adjective, rather than a noun. We are all "conservative" in some things, "liberal" in others.

Accepting, or permitting someone to force upon you, a template of what "a" conservative is or should be is a lockstep servitude no better in its nature than submitting to leftwing PC.

I quite agree. That is my point, however..and why this current meltdown is so scary. The fact that they come down on people like Charles (and myself as well in other forums) because we aren't "Conservative" enough to literally think that Obama is the anti-Christ, or because we accept the law of Evolution, says all that I need to know about the core of the movement in the current state of affairs. It is not to say that I accept this as what "Conservative" is, but a mere re-iteration of what the accusers would have it be.

However, since they are the loudest voices doing the defining at this moment in time on this particular point, I decide to take them at their word, throw up my hands, and say "Alright, that's what you define it as, I'm not one of you. If that's what you want, if that's how exclusive you want to be, then so be it."

At this juncture, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them came out with a chart showing the degrees of Conservatism in certain people and what fractions thereof people might or might not meet those requirements.

I don't think I have to elaborate further on that allusion as I think we all know exactly where I am going with this. And far be it for them to scream about this analogy as being unfair because, as far as I see it, this is exactly the pathway that they are taking right now. If you doubt what I say, go to Hot Air and read the comments from "Conservative" readers on their take about atheists, gays, liberals, and all manner of other...undesirables.

768 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:26:01pm

re: #762 Sharmuta

And I believe that's the point. Decades worth of Presidents have done this.

Exactly.
Whether we agree or disagree about whether Bush's bow to receive the medal was as deep a bow as Obama's bow of greeting, the fact is that, as you say, decades of Presidents have "bowed" in one fashion or another to the Saudis.

I personally felt better about this country's safety and security with Bush at the helm - but he does not get a "pass" on the deference to the Saudis because of it.

769 Olderthandirt  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:26:01pm

What does the phrase "fail" mean in regard to President Obama? For me, I mean that his efforts to increase Socialism should fail.

His policy on taking over our car manufacturers and running our car industry should fail in regard to that takeover.

His efforts to allow Iraq to fall back into insurgency should fail; I do believe that is what his stated goal of removing all our troops by 2011 will result in.

His efforts to increase AmeriCorps to 250,000 from its current size of 75,000 should be rejected. This increase seems like it's a realization of his campaign statement that he wants a Civilian Nation Security Force with a budget the same as DoD; which he said in Colorado Springs, CO, not in Denver as I previously mistakenly said. This effort smacks of an embryonic Brownshirt force.

President Obama's efforts to spend this country into massive debt, via his stimulus plan, stretching out seemingly forever should be rejected; failed in other words.

President Obama's overseas tour where he's blaming the USA for what seems to be everything wrong in the world should be a personal failure.

I would wish President Obama utmost success on any efforts he makes to improve the strength of the USA and to improve its standing on the world stage. But, I believe he has failed to do.

So, yes, I do want President Obama's policies of Socializing this country to fail and want him to succeed only in protecting this country so that there will be future generations.

Anyone who disagrees with me certainly has that right. Anyone who agrees with me has my thanks and sincere best wishes.

This issue is a red herring of the most obnoxious kind.

Those friends and family members who hated President Bush passionately did want President Bush presidency to fail. not simply his policies. My views of President Obama are, to me, much more rational and again, those who disagree with me, so be it.

770 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:28:36pm
robust sanity

Are we back to calling them "rotating titles" since the lizard for whom they were random quotes is no longer there? Whatever they are, this should be one of them. Maybe in this format: "LGF: robust sanity."

771 nines09  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:30:18pm

Charles, I think what you have here is wonderful. It took me a while to understand what it truly is. First it's a blog. YOUR blog. Next is the fact that the truth will usually win out within this portal. Finally, it's a place where quite a few folks gather for a cup of coffee and quite a few have found a foil or a friend. I'm here to get links and input on a number of things that will not be reported, or will be twisted by the reporter(s). Call 'em like ya see's em, my friend. Barking dogs. Just barking dogs. THANK YOU Charles.

772 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:31:39pm

re: #767 Summer

chart showing the degrees of Conservatism in certain people and what fractions thereof people might or might not meet those requirements

Gahh! Don't give me any ideas! That's the sort of obsessive stuff I might do...

And it might even be a good idea, to draw these charts. Arguably people have a right to know what the level of crazy is on any given site.

773 UncleRancher  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:34:05pm

With all due respect, at this point it does not matter what Bush did or didn't do. The message getting across at this point is diametrically opposite the message Bush sent to the radicals in the middle east. The message going out today is that we probably will do nothing to react to aggressive acts up to and possibly nuclear attack on US soil. That is the wrong message in my opinion because it is hazardous to our peace and security.

774 UncleRancher  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:35:30pm

With all due respect, at this point it does not matter what Bush did or didn't do. The message getting across at this point is diametrically opposite the message Bush sent to the radicals in the middle east. The message going out today is that we probably will do nothing to react to aggressive acts up to and possibly including nuclear attack on US soil. That is the wrong message in my opinion because it is hazardous to our peace and security.

775 Sarr  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:43:15pm

re: #768 reine.de.tout

For me it is not a question of who had the bigger bow. It is....who bowed, and who bent over to have a metal put around their neck.

776 right_wing2  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:45:44pm

I'll support Obama the 1-2% of the time I think he's right.

But, as Hillary once screeched 'We have the right to disagree with this administration (Bush) or any administration.'

777 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:47:05pm

re: #775 Sarr

Good grief! One bow is a bow and one bow is "bent over"?

Bush bent over and formally bowed to receive his medal is a show of deference and subservience to the Saudi King.

Hows that for you?

778 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:49:08pm

re: #727 Spare O'Lake

My bottom line:
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Bush was such a thoroughly dhimmified oil whore to the Saudis that for Reps now to go after Obama for bowing to the Head Saudi Oil Honcho is just plain silly, because it highlights Bush's own yellow deferential conduct.

And it also refocuses attention on Bush's humiliating conduct, including his turning a blind eye to the Saudi connection to 9-11, and then for years repeating the insulting mime that Islam is the ROP.

Yep. And as long as republicans insist on forcing themselves to believe fantasies about GW Bush, I have little faith that they will have much luck fixing the party message enough to actually make huge electoral gains in 2010.

"Bush supported the troops!" BS, and see the Rumsfeld response to the soldier in 2004 for evidence. "you go to war with the army you have." Hey Don, you had 3 years to fix that problem. See, you are the Sec Def and you boss is the Commander in Chief.

But on "conservative" blogs, I saw a whole lot of folks accusing that soldier of being a democrat plant. Not bloody likely. Even Joe Biden was more of a military funding/supplying hawk than Bush and Rumsfeld back in late 2004.

I still remember my husband's coming home from a briefing with the SecAF and telling me that they were going to cut 40,000 active duty AF folks. This was spring of 2006. Were we at war? Were they having to extend tours past 12 months, and sometimes past 15 months? Was my husband flying in an absolute pile of sh*t that nobody here would step on board without saying serious prayers?

So the Bush worship and hysterical Obama bashing just makes conservatives look devoid of thought or devoid of honesty.

And yes, I do think Obama is worse than Bush. But Bush was lousy.

779 Sarr  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:00:26pm

re: #777 Bagua

Well then, i guess i am bowing over my bathroom sink when i brush my teeth each morning. Heck... i though i was bending.

780 Mardukhai  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:02:54pm

I visited Tim Powers at his home, once, in downtown Santa Ana, of all places.

He's a nice man who read my first novel for me even though he was hip-deep in revisions. Strangely, he doesn't look like a science fiction writer at all. (Those in the biz know what I mean.)

781 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:15:12pm

re: #779 Sarr

Well then, i guess i am bowing over my bathroom sink when i brush my teeth each morning. Heck... i though i was bending.

That is a bit silly sarr, do you mean that as a joke?

Bush was hardly alone in his bathroom at the time of his formal bow to show respect and receive a metal.

782 Sarr  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:26:00pm

What i don't understand is this....Different people can look at the same video and see two different things. I truly do not think he bowed. However, i have been convinced that others think he did, and we are all looking at the same video. How can this be.... What does this say.

783 Captain Faris  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:28:56pm

I agree with your "voice of reason" approach, Charles. I'm actually sorry that I tried to put a human face on some of the extremists in question. "Activists" for causes aren't much better than used car salesmen. Nevertheless, I still think that some of the less-vocal "supporters" of some points of view are not as nutty as the loudmouths, but maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks for your successful blog.

784 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:31:34pm

What this says is that otherwise sensible people are prone to bias and beliefs that make it difficult to see reality for what it is. It appears to be a fundamental weakness of mankind.

It also shows two other things:

1. Many people will manipulate, and interpret what they see according to said bias.

2. Many people find it difficult to even notice their own bias and beliefs and how it colors their judgement.

Bush bowed his head, pure and simple, if the identical video showed Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi bowing to accept the medal, I highly doubt even one of those now parsing Bush's bow would do the same for Reid or Pelosi.

Think about about.

785 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:38:23pm

The tradition of not bowing comes from Thomas Jefferson. He was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. Thus, one can read from ConsitituionFacts.com the following:


President George Washington would bow to guests at presidential receptions to avoid physical contact and the tradition lasted through the presidency of John Adams. Washington would rest one hand on a sword and the other holding a hat to avoid the remote possibility of anyone forcing a handshake! Thomas Jefferson ended the tradition of “bowing” by shaking hands when greeting people.

In addition, one can read from the text, "Culture and Customs of the United States" (published 2008) the following:

Americans like to think they live in a classless society. No one is better than anyone else. Americans do not bow, curtsy, or nod their heads when they meet friends or strangers. With a firm grip and a handshake, Americans look into the eyes of the people they meet and immediately begin a new relationship on an equal, first-name basis. yet the self-confidence and independence this behavior connotes is also the power behind the innovation and inventiveness that Americans cherish..[the author goes on to write about "entrepreneurial risk taking", etc.]

Now, of course, this might be all subject to Change! -- I don't know -- I'm not living in the States right now. But, I am an American citizen -- born and raised in the United States. And from what i recall -- there was no sucking up to royalty -- that was just one of the little reasons why there was a Revolutionary War -- to overthrow the British monarchy. And, as far as I'm concerned -- as I have repeatedly stated (for those who are capable of reading and understanding) there is no excuse for obeissances to foreign monarchs made by American Presidents, and I don't care if it's a Clinton, a GW Bush, or an Obama.

786 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:41:45pm

re: #783 Captain Faris

I agree with your "voice of reason" approach, Charles. I'm actually sorry that I tried to put a human face on some of the extremists in question. "Activists" for causes aren't much better than used car salesmen. Nevertheless, I still think that some of the less-vocal "supporters" of some points of view are not as nutty as the loudmouths, but maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks for your successful blog.

As has been pointed out to me, we all have our obsessions, our degrees of nuttiness, and our flaws...

All that can be said about the less vocal ones is that they don't talk as much. At least they're wise enough not to publish their sillinesses but, on the minus side, that also means they don't get the silly argued out of them.

787 Sarr  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:59:47pm

Bagua, I think it is a difference of opinion and you think it is bias. This makes me a little depressed/sad. Why? If somewhat like- minded people can't agree on a simple video, what does this say about points of view in matters of peace in the middle east and around the world.

788 LGF Widower  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:05:44pm

Well, that does it. I'm just going to have to run out and buy a bunch more Tim Powers books. ;-)

789 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:08:03pm

I agree, it is a real problem, people see what they want to see, and they interpret things according to their own bias.

Of course we both see that Bush is bowing to receive a medal, and that Obama is bowing as a form of greeting. In both cases the head is dropped to show respect.

Where the bias comes in is in how we react and seek to parse what we saw.

Next, we have the underlying problem that all this is pap, trivial decorum at best. It distracts us from the actual issues, and shows that we are mostly concerned with personality politics.

The fact is, Bush had a long history of direct actions to support the Saudi dictator, and proved his allegiance to them over and over.

Obama, what has he actually done so far? Nothing that we know of. Yet we suspect he will do something bad so we jump on him for something that is decorum at best, while making excuses for Bush doing essentially the same thing.

790 LEGION  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:25:45pm

re: #762 Sharmuta

But the stinky b.o. is about- CHANGE - so he should have known better and not done it. That is the point. He is a bag of wind and we must pound into the voters out there that he is a mistake, like they did about Bush! That is how their guys got in- whats good for the goose is good for the gander!

791 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:30:13pm

re: #784 Bagua

Bush bowed his head, pure and simple, if the identical video showed Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi bowing to accept the medal, I highly doubt even one of those now parsing Bush's bow would do the same for Reid or Pelosi.

Think about about.

If Obama had been shown bowing to receive a medal from Abdullah, I guarantee the same people would be screaming about it even louder.

792 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:37:46pm

re: #791 Charles

Agreed, and there would be absolutely no quibbling over whether he was "bowing" or "bending over."

793 Sarr  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:42:30pm

Again, i don't think President Bush bowed. I have said that consistently! I do think President Obama did bow.
I am beginning to think this is like trying to guess how many angels can dance on the end of a pin. i give up.

Gotta go watch "THE" game. My Villanova lost so i hope NC wins. That way at least we can say we lost to the NCAA champs. FYI - The last three time Villanova was in the hunt, the team that beat us became the NCAA Champions.

794 capitalist piglet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 5:15:15pm

Semi-related: My best friend is a Navy vet, and participated in the Gulf War. He has a medal from the Saudis; I asked him today what it was for, and it was a medal of appreciation, authorized to be worn on an American serviceman's uniform. He is under the impression that every member of the military who participated in that campaign received one. He has a certificate of appreciation that accompanied it.

I imagine that would come as a surprise to many of us.

795 Canoe Train  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 7:33:17pm

re: #791 Charles

Charles: how would I forward a link to you for your comments and edification ? What Al-Qaeda writes about 9/11

796 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 7:36:40pm

re: #794 capitalist piglet

Semi-related: My best friend is a Navy vet, and participated in the Gulf War. He has a medal from the Saudis; I asked him today what it was for, and it was a medal of appreciation, authorized to be worn on an American serviceman's uniform. He is under the impression that every member of the military who participated in that campaign received one. He has a certificate of appreciation that accompanied it.

I imagine that would come as a surprise to many of us.

You're right; I didn't know that Saud passed medals around.

But as I posted earlier, they'd got ordered to accept these medals, and at that time (1991) we'd not understood the depth of Wahhabism. Saud was considered an ally under an oppressive regime which might be on its way to evolving into a Jordan or an Egypt. So our servicemen get a pass on those medals as far as I'm concerned.

On 12 September 2001, though, I wouldn't have blamed any serviceman who tossed that particular medal onto the White House lawn.

797 Hawaii69  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 8:47:19pm

re: #45 OldLineTexan

re: #61 Nevergiveup

Gates Calls for Cuts to High-Tech Weapons Programs
Defense Secretary Robert Gates announces a broad range of cuts to weapons spending, saying he plans to cut programs ranging from a new helicopter for the president to ending production of the $140 billion F-22 fighter jet.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Big Big Mistake. Been nice knowing ya F-22! I never liked Gates as I have said many times before.

We've already got 135 F-22's in service. The program isn't going to be cut until the current order brings that number up to 187. For a plane that has no match,
and no defined enemy for that matter, that's pretty
far ahead of the curve.

The rest of the story is that the F-35 program is
going to be continued, with 30 units in operation
by 2010, and an eventual goal of over 2400 in service.

As it stands, we've got over 1200 F-16's in service, and
and 650 F-15's, both of which have proven themselves
superior to anything they have come up against.

798 Boxy_brown  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 8:55:38pm

re: #736 avanti

That's what I was thinking. Punch the GPS coordinates of the target, select the bomb load, tell the computer to fly 100 feet off the deck for example and off it goes. Like you say, maybe covered by both piloted and remote fighters.

Sorry to post on the dead thread but the screen was up and I couldn't resist.

GPS depends on a satellite constellation function flawlessly. Probably the first thing the Chinese would do in a major conflict would be to launch a oil drum full of b-b's into the same orbit as our satellites and wipe them out. GPS can also be messed with, as can the data link between pilots and pilot-less aircraft.

The f-22 was an important component in our air defense paradigm. The f-35 is too heavy, is too big and tasked with too many simultaneous missions to be a pure air-superiority fighter. It's probably better than the SU-30/35 but the Russians are developing/rolling out new aircraft like the PAK-FA.

It will take ages before the nerds perfect their RC fighters so that is going to leave us short so we flush money down the toilet on bailouts and kickbacks to professional parasites community activists.

799 Ursus Maritimus  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 4:46:02am

"O Lizards, are you constant to the old covenant?"
"Return, and we return; keep faith, and so will we"

800 Red Lion  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 8:59:40am

You da man, Charles! Keep up the good work. This is why a conservative Democrat/RINO like me hangs around this blog ...

801 StillAMarine  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 10:25:41am

Oh, Charles: Do not forget Drawing of the Dark. That is the book I read every year to start my Summer reading and ale swilling season out on my deck. Nothing like "Drawing" to get one in the mood for drinking the fruit of the grain.


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
2 days ago
Views: 104 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 270 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1