About Glenn Beck’s Extremist Rhetoric, Part 2

Media • Views: 5,727

David Frum asks “What is going on at Fox News?”

The whole column makes good points (and Beck has already savaged Frum for it, of course), but let’s focus on one section:

The audience for Beck’s Friday night special were each given copies of two books. One of them was Cleon Skousen’s Five Thousand Year Leap. Skousen, who died in 2006, is one of the legendary cranks of the conservative world, a John Bircher, a grand fantasist of theories about secret conspiracies between capitalists and communists to impose a one-world government under the control of David Rockefeller.

There’s always been a market for this junk of course. Once that market was reached via mimeographed newsletters. Now it’s being tapped by Fox News.

Here’s a recording of a speech by Skousen, to give you an idea who Glenn Beck thinks is a great man, worthy of promoting on Fox News.

The Mormon Times has more details on Beck’s praise for this work of conspiracy madness by a close ally of the John Birch Society: Beck’s backing bumps Skousen book to top.

“Everyone should read this book,” the conservative talk show host said as he passed out copies during a recent broadcast. On his radio program Friday evening, Beck touted the book’s climb to No. 1.

Beck added an introduction to the copies he handed out on his show. “(Skousen) was years ahead of his time,” Beck wrote. “And our founders were thousands of years ahead of their time. My hope is that all Americans young and old will spend time with this book to understand why we are who we are. The words of our Founding Fathers have a way of reaching across any political divide.”

A question for LGF readers who have been defending Beck’s insane conspiracy rhetoric: are these the kinds of people you want to be associated with—Ron Paul, John Birchers, and “end times” fanatics?

In his latest column, Victor Davis Hanson doesn’t mention Glenn Beck, but he’s also noticed that Fox News is going off the rails.

Footnote. The once insightful Fox News is rapidly devolving into a sort of entertainment circus. That is a tragedy, since the network for years has done wonders in offering an antithesis to the supposedly non-biased biased network news. Each news show now interviews hosts from the other Fox news hours (To save money? Free publicity?). Hawking books (written in short, breezy style, without much analysis) is done on the air rather than as commercials. Anchors show old clips of themselves and invite in analysts to praise their on-air interviews (are they going to be invited back if critical?).

The hosts now constantly blare out their own ratings. Murder and rapine often headline the news in the manner of the local 6PM affiliates. Quiz shows are part of the news; female analysts are almost always either young or blond or usually both, rather than simply insightful. The sober and judicious Brit Hume’s presence is missed. Take away a few top-notch correspondents, and Charles Krauthammer’s sagacity and depth of thinking, and there is increasingly not a lot there. (but I like Neil Cavuto’s business hour and Dennis Miller’s op-eds) All in all, an unfortunate development, since there is no disinterested counterpart to a 60 Minutes or NBC News, and for years Fox offered an invaluable alternative in airing real news deliberately ignored by the mainstream networks.

Jump to bottom

229 comments
1 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:53:08am
2 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:53:35am

He WILL go "Howard Beale" on us some night. It's only a question of whether keith dobermann beats him to the punch.

3 CapeCoddah  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:54:13am

I have only seen Beck once or twice. Not impressed. He is a whacko, who cries like a little girl.

4 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:55:03am

by the way ... did anyone hear a story about the US crew on that ship wresting control back and tossing one or more pirates over the side? If it is true, the spirit of Todd (Let's Roll) Beamer lives on!

5 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:56:18am
6 CapeCoddah  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:56:20am

re: #4 _RememberTonyC

by the way ... did anyone hear a story about the US crew on that ship wresting control back and tossing one or more pirates over the side? If it is true, the spirit of Todd (Let's Roll) Beamer lives on!

One of our local kids, A Massachusette Maritime Academy grad is on that ship.

7 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:57:00am

re: #6 CapeCoddah

One of our local kids, A Massachusette Maritime Academy grad is on that ship.

he may well be a freaking HERO!

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

8 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:57:06am

re: #4 _RememberTonyC

by the way ... did anyone hear a story about the US crew on that ship wresting control back and tossing one or more pirates over the side? If it is true, the spirit of Todd (Let's Roll) Beamer lives on!

That is what Fox TV is reporting. Good for them, because I doubt Obama would have ordered a Military response.

9 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:57:34am

re: #7 _RememberTonyC

he may well be a freaking HERO!

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

I so hope that story about them retaking the ship is true.

10 Mithrax  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:57:47am

re: #8 Nevergiveup

That is what Fox TV is reporting. Good for them, because I doubt Obama would have ordered a Military response.

Obama is probably trying to get the crew to surrender to the pirates...

11 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:57:53am
There’s always been a market for this junk of course. Once that market was reached via mimeographed newsletters. Now it’s being tapped by Fox News.

That one struck a nerve.

Like I said last night, I don't watch any of the cable news channels (or the three broadcast networks' news), and it sounds like I'm not missing anything, except maybe some good kooky entertainment.

12 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:08am

Fellow 12- ft. lizards - have no fear- they'll never really catch on.

13 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:10am

This is the part where Taq advises you to get rid of your TV, and is met with a steady stream of denial.

14 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:18am
Here’s a recording of a speech by Clousen

Charles, isn't that "Skousen"?

15 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:25am

Let's Roll.

Bring it on, Motherf*ckers!

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

16 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:31am

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.

17 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:37am

re: #7 _RememberTonyC

he may well be a freaking HERO!

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

That is awesome!

18 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:37am

re: #10 Mithrax

Obama is probably trying to get the crew to surrender to the pirates...

"Day 443, America Held Hostage".

19 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:44am
20 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:58:56am

re: #8 Nevergiveup

That is what Fox TV is reporting. Good for them, because I doubt Obama would have ordered a Military response.

Surrender is a military response, you know

21 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:04am

His radio program is on when I get up, and I just can't stand to listen to him. It's as much a style thing as anything else...the dramatic pauses, the highs and lows and whispering stuff just drives me crazy. Whatever whacky content is there, I can't even get to the point where I'm really listening, because he is such a freaking DQ.

22 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:05am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.

Shark food.

23 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:09am

re: #14 Occasional Reader

Charles, isn't that "Skousen"?

Or if it is Clousen, this is indeed a fine pickle we're in.

24 ducktrapper  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:09am

As a Canadian, I've never watched Fox News but from what I've seen, Glen Beck is an embarrassment. The recent cartoon spoof was right on. The man's cuckoo.

25 rawmuse  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:19am

There must be a market for this sort of thing.
The National Enquirer is, after all, still in business.

26 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:41am

re: #20 Adrenalyn

Surrender is a military response, you know

That was invented by the French wasn't it?

27 Capitalist Tool  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:46am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.

Those were AMERICANS on that ship!
Way to go!
Damn the torpedoes!

28 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:00:21am

re: #7 _RememberTonyC

he may well be a freaking HERO!

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Bummer. FreeRepublic was added to the kook list a while back, so in good conscience, I can't check the link out. I'm confining myself only to sensible and approved material, as determined by the world.

////

29 turn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:00:40am

"The sober and judicious Brit Hume’s presence is missed."

turn thinks Brit Hume would make a good POTUS but it ain't never going to happen.

30 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:01am

re: #27 Capitalist Tool

Those were AMERICANS on that ship!
Way to go!
Damn the torpedoes!

I see a few candidates to throw out the first pitch!

31 CapeCoddah  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:06am

re: #7 _RememberTonyC

he may well be a freaking HERO!

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

He is Captain Shane Murphy, 34, second in command. His father is a teacher at the academy, where my uncle also Capt. Bushy is also a teacher and administrator. I just called my uncle, and they HAVE retaken the ship!

32 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:07am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.

The media is trying to figure out how to credit Obama for this as we speak.

33 Ringo the Gringo  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:16am

It's best not to watch much TV in my opinion.

Turn it off I say...read a book. Cook a good meal. Pet your dog. Play with your kid.

34 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:23am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.

Great news, if it pans out... American can-do spirit!

35 J.D.  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:29am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.

:D
Even if they can swim, I guarantee they can't swim far enough, which is, in the end, what matters the most.

36 LionofDixon  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:33am

I do miss Brit Hume, who I thought was one of the best of all times....

Another reason why it seems to be lurching right is that there is no Alan Colmes to play to Hannity. Rather, the whole hour is now Hannity's and his "Great American Panel" which seems to be made up of whomever was left over from happy hour at the bar.

Morever, the legal analysts suck. I wonder if airhead Lis Wiehl has ever been correct on an issue. I can get better legal advice from drunks in the gutter than the bimbettes that are hauled out to spew thier inane musings.

37 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:45am

re: #31 CapeCoddah

He is Captain Shane Murphy, 34, second in command. His father is a teacher at the academy, where my uncle also Capt. Bushy is also a teacher and administrator. I just called my uncle, and they HAVE retaken the ship!

GREAT!

38 KenJen  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:01:49am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.


Great news. It would be great if they made them walk the plank.

39 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:02:10am

re: #26 Nevergiveup

That was invented by the French wasn't it?

soytainly

40 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:02:17am

re: #7 _RememberTonyC

he may well be a freaking HERO!

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

Dude, what with the video at that link? Are they now beheading effigies at Tea Parties? The crowd is screaming "off with his head".

41 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:02:18am

re: #31 CapeCoddah

He is Captain Shane Murphy, 34, second in command. His father is a teacher at the academy, where my uncle also Capt. Bushy is also a teacher and administrator. I just called my uncle, and they HAVE retaken the ship!

They knew that TOTUS wouldn't do squat for them, except maybe go to the UN.

42 rawmuse  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:02:32am

re: #33 Ringo the Gringo

It's best not to watch much TV in my opinion.

Turn it off I say...read a book. Cook a good meal. Pet your dog. Play with your kid.

I occasionally go on (gasp) News Fasts.
I have decided that it is not compulsory for me to know all things about all things at all times.

43 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:02:42am

re: #28 jwb7605

Bummer. FreeRepublic was added to the kook list a while back, so in good conscience, I can't check the link out. I'm confining myself only to sensible and approved material, as determined by the world.

////

Check out the CBS News link:

American Crew Battles Somali Pirates

The crew of a hijacked U.S. cargo ship is in a standoff with Somali pirates after attempting to retake the vessel, military sources told CBS News correspondent David Martin.

The sources told CBS News that crew members overpowered the pirates, taking one into custody, but the hijackers still held the ship's master hostage. The American crew is in control of at least part of the ship and crew members have been in contact with their families.

KEEP ON FIGHTING!

44 J.D.  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:07am

re: #16 Nevergiveup
Maybe Obama won't apologize.
/dreaming again

45 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:12am

re: #38 KenJen

Great news. It would be great if they made them walk the plank.

ARRRRRRR, Matey! Walk the plank!

/and use their best pirate accents

46 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:19am

It's hard to watch Beck without getting that hell-in-a-handbasket, it's all ending tomorrow vibe.
He's got that "F*** Miss Utility, just start digging now" feeling down.

47 turn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:22am

re: #24 ducktrapper

As a Canadian, I've never watched Fox News but from what I've seen, Glen Beck is an embarrassment. The recent cartoon spoof was right on. The man's cuckoo.

BTW, that cartoon had his mannerisms down pat and the inflections in the cartoon voice were perfect. The cartoon amazed me.

48 gringo69  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:32am

FFEEEMMMAA DDDDEEEATTTHHH CCCAAMMMPPP! be afraid be very afraid of the efficient death machin known as FEMA!

49 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:33am

re: #33 Ringo the Gringo

It's best not to watch much TV in my opinion.

Turn it off I say...read a book. Cook a good meal. Pet your dog. Play with your kid.

I already surrendered mine to the wife
even ditched the printed morning liberal propaganda rags
in favor of books, mags, internet

50 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:44am
There’s always been a market for this junk of course. Once that market was reached via mimeographed newsletters. Now it’s being tapped by Fox News.

Blogs are so much cheaper than mimeographs and paper, it makes critical reading skills all the more important.

51 CIA Reject  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:51am

re: #45 Ward Cleaver

ARRRRRRR, Matey! Walk the plank!

/and use their best pirate accents

Keel haul the bastards!

52 CapeCoddah  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:53am

re: #41 Ward Cleaver

They knew that TOTUS wouldn't do squat for them, except maybe go to the UN.

Don't screw with US sailors. They will mess you up!

53 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:57am

re: #6 CapeCoddah

One of our local kids, A Massachusette Maritime Academy grad is on that ship.

And that was before the MMA started giving training on weapons and repelling pirates.
(My daughter went out with a guy who attended there, but he's now a Coast Guard officer in Alaska, and will be starting flight training soon.)

54 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:59am

I'm beginning to wonder if Fox doesn't have an agenda to promote the nuts on the Right in order to get FCBBHO re-elected in 2012. Am I paranoid?

55 Desert Dog  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:04:02am

The ship is laden with food and other aid for Somalia. I hope they have taken the ship back from the sea pirates. Unfortunately, I am betting the "land pirates" will probably take control of the aid once it hits the ground in Somalia. What a HELLHOLE.

Something must be done to remedy that situation, too many ships are being taken. It is time to put these pirates out of business.

56 ducktrapper  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:04:03am

If they can't swim and something happens to those poor pirates, you'll be condemned. Prepare for it. They were just poor Somali fishermen doing what they had to do since bad foreigners took all the fish. Next? Watch out for large numbers of Newfie pirates scouring the coast of Maine!

57 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:04:27am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Breaking. Per CBS radio news.. the crew has regained control of the ship throwing three pirates overboard and capturing one.. Will post more.. Breaking

Gee I sure hope those 3 pirates CAN'T swim.

I hope the crew doesn't get into hot water with the UN for human rights violations...

58 yesandno  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:04:40am

VDH is dead on....as usual.

The part of interviewing each other, etc is just so true....

59 Ford_Prefect  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:04:45am

Didn't Fox News recently change ownership? Is it possible this over the edge programming is an intentional driving of the network off the cliff?

60 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:04:54am

It was named the Maersk ALABAMA.

GO BAMA ROLL TIDE!

61 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:05:09am

re: #43 Honorary Yooper

The American crew is in control of at least part of the ship and crew members have been in contact with their families.

They need to get a Seal team in there NOW to reinforce these guys.

62 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:05:10am

re: #54 MandyManners

I'm beginning to wonder if Fox doesn't have an agenda to promote the nuts on the Right in order to get FCBBHO re-elected in 2012. Am I paranoid?

Yes.

63 Taqiyyotomist  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:05:11am

re: #57 Leonidas Hoplite

I hope the crew doesn't get into hot water with the UN for human rights violations...

A valid concern, sadly.

64 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:05:11am

Can you imagine if Skousen were still around to promote his nuttiness on the Internet?

65 JohnnyReb  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:05:54am

re: #41 Ward Cleaver

They knew that TOTUS wouldn't do squat for them, except maybe go to the UN.

That is my thought also. No friggin way I wouldn't try something knowing that my government wouldn't lift a military finger to help me and my shipmates out.

66 CapeCoddah  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:06:06am

re: #53 Kosh's Shadow

And that was before the MMA started giving training on weapons and repelling pirates.
(My daughter went out with a guy who attended there, but he's now a Coast Guard officer in Alaska, and will be starting flight training soon.)

Funnily enough, it is Captain Murphy's dad, Captain Murphy Sr., who is doing the weapons training with the students.

67 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:06:06am

re: #16 Nevergiveup

Swimming isn't their only problem. Those waters are popular with sharks.

68 ciaospirit  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:06:26am

re: #8 Nevergiveup

That is what Fox TV is reporting. Good for them, because I doubt Obama would have ordered a Military response.

My local news just said Obama is considering how to respond.

69 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:06:32am

On Topic: Not enough people care. FOX news is crazy because that's what the audience wants. We panned Ron Paul here but his economic policies are now pretty widely accepted and are pretty much the basis for the Tea Party movement.
I discovered yesterday that some Tea Parties are organized by a UFO doomsday cult. Seriously. People were mad at me for pointing it out. They don't care.

70 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:06:54am

re: #68 ciaospirit

My local news just said Obama is considering how to respond.

That says it all I guess.

71 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:07:28am

re: #58 yesandno

VDH is dead on....as usual.

The part of interviewing each other, etc is just so true....

wait, the leftist media has been doing that for years
you don't remember the Democratic Party debates put on in 2005, I think it was ?

virtually all American media is run by leftists and they only interview each other so that one facet is not something worth condeming

in other words, 0bama bowed, Bush bowed
the left interviews the left, the right interviews the right

72 LGoPs  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:07:39am

This does disappoint me. I value VDH's opinion and I've missed much of what he comments on about Fox since I pretty much stopped watching it on Nov 5th. I stopped watching the other outlets 20 years prior to that......

73 ciaospirit  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:07:44am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

On Topic: Not enough people care. FOX news is crazy because that's what the audience wants. We panned Ron Paul here but his economic policies are now pretty widely accepted and are pretty much the basis for the Tea Party movement.
I discovered yesterday that some Tea Parties are organized by a UFO doomsday cult. Seriously. People were mad at me for pointing it out. They don't care.

Oh, stop the victim spin.

74 zombie  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:08:06am

Fox's head honchos have obviously made some sort of conscious decision to go "over the top."

As further proof of this, check out their latest reality show:

Fox to Make Layoffs Entertaining

Fox takes another bold step towards live televised executions today with the announcement of Somebody's Gotta Go, the first-ever reality show (as far as we're aware) that each week will visit a different small business affected by the recession and let employees vote on who among them should be laid off. "It's Survivor meets The Office," says Mike Darnell, the reality-TV asshole behind such classics as Joe Millionaire, Temptation Island, and the aborted O.J. Simpson: If I Did It, Here's How It Happened.

Gotta Go — already allegedly in production and on schedule to debut late summer or early fall — will focus on small offices of fifteen to twenty people, and those voted out of their jobs will receive only their tiny severance. The companies' books and all human-resources files will be completely opened to the staff, so they'll know each other's salaries and benefits. Also, employees will "get a chance to say, face to face, what they really think of one another," as if this idea really needed to be more horrible seeming.

What I think happened is that the Fox Board of Directors saw a screening of the film Network and thought it was a motivational exercise.

75 jcm  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:08:19am

Laup Nor!
Hcrib Nhoj!

It must be the end of days!
Or at least the end of sanity.

76 J.S.  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:08:21am

wow. And I thought Beck's endorsements of Ron Paul were over-the-top. Now this? Promoting some raving conspiracy crank's book? Pathetic.

77 J.D.  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:08:23am

re: #68 ciaospirit

My local news just said Obama is considering how to respond.


Quick!
Someone tell him what to say!

78 CommonCents  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:08:39am

re: #8 Nevergiveup

That is what Fox TV is reporting. Good for them, because I doubt Obama would have ordered a Military response.

Makes me harken back to 1979 for the obvious analogy. Obama Admin closely watching as Americans are taken hostage. Given the parallels between this and the Carter administration, it should come as no surprise that they took matters into their own hands. "Do we do something now or wait for 400 days?"

79 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:09:29am

re: #73 ciaospirit

Oh, stop the victim spin.


I rest my case.

80 jcm  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:09:34am

re: #48 gringo69

FFEEEMMMAA DDDDEEEATTTHHH CCCAAMMMPPP! be afraid be very afraid of the efficient death machin known as FEMA!

You are assigned to Trailer 35-694.

/;-P

81 researchok  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:09:41am

All pathologies, left unaddressed, always escalate. It really is that simple.

What passes for news, opinion and informed thought today is a sorry reflection of our society.

82 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:09:54am

re: #7 _RememberTonyC

he may well be a freaking HERO!

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

"America, F*ck yeah!"

83 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:09:55am

re: #74 zombie

Fox's head honchos have obviously made some sort of conscious decision to go "over the top."

As further proof of this, check out their latest reality show:

Fox to Make Layoffs Entertaining


What I think happened is that the Fox Board of Directors saw a screening of the film Network and thought it was a motivational exercise.

ok, I have not watched TV since the election either, as some other posters have mentioned

but consider that the left went way kooky overboard to gain control of Congress in 2006 and the White House in 2008

and can you really blame the right ?

84 turn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:11:19am

re: #36 LionofDixon

You know I sort of miss Colmes too, since he has been gone Hanity has changed the format of the show to be the right wing equivalent of Olberman. I don't watch Hanity anymore.

85 J.D.  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:11:30am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

I discovered yesterday that some Tea Parties are organized by a UFO doomsday cult.


Does that make them all wrong?

86 researchok  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:11:33am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

On Topic: Not enough people care. FOX news is crazy because that's what the audience wants. We panned Ron Paul here but his economic policies are now pretty widely accepted and are pretty much the basis for the Tea Party movement.
I discovered yesterday that some Tea Parties are organized by a UFO doomsday cult. Seriously. People were mad at me for pointing it out. They don't care.

You are absolutely right. We created the menu, order of of it and are sated by it.

Pity.

87 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:11:39am

re: #54 MandyManners

I'm beginning to wonder if Fox doesn't have an agenda to promote the nuts on the Right in order to get FCBBHO re-elected in 2012. Am I paranoid?

Absolutely fucking paranoid.
They're after ratings, and only ratings.
I remember Fox being bashed during the election for too much suck-up to the Obama camp. By members of LGF.

88 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:11:43am

re: #74 zombie

Fox's head honchos have obviously made some sort of conscious decision to go "over the top."

As further proof of this, check out their latest reality show:

Fox to Make Layoffs Entertaining

What I think happened is that the Fox Board of Directors saw a screening of the film Network and thought it was a motivational exercise.

At first, I thought that was a joke.
Do they get to keep their red staplers?

89 lurking faith  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:13:27am

re: #57 Leonidas Hoplite

I hope the crew doesn't get into hot water with the UN for human rights violations...

I don't think so. Too many countries have had their ships pirated.

90 horse  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:14:31am

It appears Fox News is on the typical brand curve. It grows and grows until it gets so big it collapses under its own weight. Fox News is looking kinda fat nowadays and more people are noticing the bulges peaking out the sides of its mainstream waistline. And are those boils popping up on the extreme right side of its face?

They better get back to the basics before their health starts to decline.

91 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:14:58am

Charles,

Good work posting criticism of this idiot Glenn Beck. The GOP is doomed to the wilderness as long as paranoid windbags like Beck, Coulter et al are considered acceptable spokespeople of conservatism.

92 vxbush  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:15:17am

Okay, what has the Johh Birch Society done lately? The Wikipedia page doesn't mention anything recent, so while their stance against the Civil Rights movement is bad enough, I don't have any frame to consider what they've done lately.

93 yesandno  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:16:09am

re: #71 Adrenalyn

wait, the leftist media has been doing that for years
you don't remember the Democratic Party debates put on in 2005, I think it was ?

virtually all American media is run by leftists and they only interview each other so that one facet is not something worth condeming

in other words, 0bama bowed, Bush bowed
the left interviews the left, the right interviews the right


If you have watched FOX lately then you know that part of all of this is having Beck on O'Reilly, or O'Reilly playing clips of O'Reilly on Letterman or the View or on Rachel Ray and then have someone analyze the body language during the interviews of O'Reilly. That eats up a lot of time from real news, real analysis, etc.

However, Rush will be on Cavuto at 4:00 so things could be looking up!

94 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:18:10am

re: #84 turn

True, true. At least with Colmes, they could lay some claim to fair and balanced. Plus it was fun watching Colmes get pummeled every so often, particularly by Dick Morris.

I remember seeing a headline in the Onion once, that read: "Alan Colmes loses argument to six-year-old cousin."

95 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:18:25am

re: #92 vxbush

Okay, what has the Johh Birch Society done lately?

Promoting the Glenn Beck show and Tea Parties...

/ducks

96 VioletTiger  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:19:24am

You all made me curious, so I listened to Glenn this morning. He is the master of doom and gloom.

97 Dianna  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:20:24am

re: #54 MandyManners

I'm beginning to wonder if Fox doesn't have an agenda to promote the nuts on the Right in order to get FCBBHO re-elected in 2012. Am I paranoid?

Just a touch.

98 ciaospirit  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:20:33am

re: #79 Killgore Trout

I rest my case.

I wish you would.

State your case and stop the poor KT is being picked on whining. You make some outrageous generalizations at times, so does that mean that everybody at LGF thinks like you? KT=LGF? Such nonsense, yet that's what you project about others.

99 Jr ewing  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:21:13am

Isn't Obama a radical leftist?

100 calcajun  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:23:09am

An oldie but a goodie:

"The John Birch Society"
by Michael Brown

Oh, we're meetin' at the courthouse at eight o'clock tonight
You just walk in the door and take the first turn to the right
Be careful when you get there, we hate to be bereft
But we're taking down the names of everybody turning left

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society, help us fill the ranks
To get this movement started we need lots of tools and cranks

Now there's no one that we're certain the Kremlin doesn't touch
We think that Westbrook Pegler doth protest a bit too much
We only hail the hero from whom we got our name
We're not sure what he did but he's our hero just the same

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Socialism
is the ism dismalest of all
Join the John Birch Society, there's so much to do
Have you heard they're serving vodka at the WCTU?

Well you've heard about the agents that we've already named
Well MPA has agents that are flauntedly unashamed
We're after Rosie Clooney, we've gotten Pinkie Lee
And the day we get Red Skelton won't that be a victory

Oh we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Norman Vincent Peale may think he's kidding us along
But the John Birch Society knows he spilled the beans
He keeps on preaching brotherhood, but we know what he means

We'll teach you how to spot 'em in the cities or the sticks
For even Jasper Junction is just full of Bolsheviks
The CIA's subversive and so's the FCC
There's no one left but thee and we, and we're not sure of thee

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Here to save our country from a communistic plot
Join the John Birch Society holding off the Reds
We'll use our hand and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads

Do you want Justice Warren for your Commissar?
Do you want Mrs. Krushchev in there with the DAR?
You cannot trust your neighbor or even next of kin
If mommie is a commie then you gotta turn her in

Oh, we're the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right
Join the John Birch Society as we're marching on
And we'll all be glad to see you when we're meeting in the John
The John, the John Birch So- ci- i- teee

101 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:24:18am

Briefly put, craziness sells. Being objective, insightful, and informative is a constant challenge. Pandering to the loonies is the lazy way out. Fox found a niche market and it's saturating it. It's all about being outrageous for the sake of being outrageous, and fueling the flames of hyper-polarized partisanship. Turn politics into a pissing match between drunken fans in a soccer-stadium. Wear your team colors. Boo at the other team. Whatever.

Ann Coulter does this so well, and I think, though many will disagree, Michelle Malkin does too.

I have no love for her, but my husband who is older and has been politically attuned longer than myself, claims she used to be much calmer and sober. Guess she found out insanity sells better somewhere down the line. Her book defending the internment of Japanese Americans was disgraceful, and I firmly believe at least part of her choice of subject matter was dictated by her ethnic background: "Oh, look at me, I'm Asian and I'll write a book defending the internment of Japanese Americans."

I'm Albanian, and can only imagine how much attention, money, and support I'd get from "certain circles" were I to write in defense of the late Serbian government's actions in the Balkan wars. Oh, it would be so contrarian, so much more credible, so attention-worthy, coming from me.

Michelle Malkin is also a syndicated columnist at the white-power cesspool of a publication, Vdare: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Disgusting!

I don't know how this comment spiraled off into Malkin bashing, but I see an intimate analogy between her devolution and FOX's.

102 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:24:25am

re: #93 yesandno

If you have watched FOX lately then you know that part of all of this is having Beck on O'Reilly, or O'Reilly playing clips of O'Reilly on Letterman or the View or on Rachel Ray and then have someone analyze the body language during the interviews of O'Reilly. That eats up a lot of time from real news, real analysis, etc.

However, Rush will be on Cavuto at 4:00 so things could be looking up!

still, this has been going on forever with the left
also, speaking of Letterman, Leno, etc

they have always relied on stars of their own nets sitcoms as fodder

so the right is borrowing tricks of the left
not a big deal to me

actually, it sort of is because I expect more from my side
but the left has gone so insanely left, that perhaps the right needs to do something equal to restore some balance
I just don't have the answer

103 Pickles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:25:54am

I have become increasingly disinterested in FoxNews. It is unfortunate as over the rears I really think they have had some terrific people on there, like Brit, Tony (RIP), and others who provided some intellectual thought. Now it seems like it's all entertainment, all the time and less thought provoking. Not that the others are any different (CNN, MSNBC, etc). I just wish they would get back to some solid intellectual discussion instead of the hair-brained stuff they have been promoting. It's become a laugh honestly and we don't tune in much anymore.

104 ciaospirit  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:26:46am

re: #93 yesandno

However, Rush will be on Cavuto at 4:00 so things could be looking up!


I don't know. Have you checked with Killgore first before making that statement? Rush may have uttered once that the tea parties might be a good thing. Heck, maybe you have! /

105 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:26:56am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Dude, what with the video at that link? Are they now beheading effigies at Tea Parties? The crowd is screaming "off with his head".

i only went there for the link ... i am not a regular at the site ... and their link was to CBS NEWS ...

106 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:28:23am
107 kynna  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:34:20am

Isn't the Fox network (not FNN) the creator of exploitation reality shows like COPS? Didn't they have special after special of "World's Craziest Car Chases", and "World's Craziest Animal Attacks"? The acorn doesn't really fall that far from the tree.

Their news network was always slightly cheesy, so I guess I'm not surprised it's going full fledged nutbar. I wish there were a more sober network for the people VDH mentions. Maybe they'll get disgusted and move over to PJ Media. It's probably the only way I'd see them since I don't watch TV anymore.

108 avanti  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:36:19am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

On Topic: Not enough people care. FOX news is crazy because that's what the audience wants.

The same with blogs on either the right or left. If you point out that a comment might just be off the rails due to political bias, you are dog piled as a infiltrator from the other side.
Blogs, like TV shows will be more popular if you just feed the mind set of either side. The country is now being spoon fed the versions of "facts" they want to hear from each side, and pity the fool that tries to discuss the issue.
The crazier Beck gets, the better his rating will be, and the harder for fair minded conservatives to restrain him.

109 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:39:04am

re: #10 Mithrax

Obama is probably trying to get the crew to surrender to the pirates...

Funny you should mention the One. He must be grinning from ear to ear right now. Not because some American lives are safe (though I'm sure the One thinks that's nice), but because by retaking the ship, what would have been a big test of Obama's strength and resolve has just fixed itself.

110 flagpony  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:39:29am

I've just started reading the 5000 year leap as recommended by Neal Bortz and Honestly I haven't seen anything whacky yet.

111 ellcon  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:41:51am

I'll say this again Charles: A lot of people on this site believe things could get really bad. If they were to elucidate why, you would brand them a conspiracy theorist. Do you deny that this country is taking steps to more international governance? Do you worry at all about the dollar's standing as the reserve currency? Is there any issue with the trillions pumped into the system by the unaccountable Federal Reserve?

The problem with a lot of the Glenn Beck types is not that they point out historical parallels or incremental steps towards destruction of US sovereignty, it's that they try and find religious meaning in it. That's the real kooky conspiracy theory: that God or Jesus or Joseph Smith is conspiring with the power elite to bring about the end times.

112 HippieforLife  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:42:08am

re: #84 turn

It seems that Hannity is going for the circus show. I like him but I do not like the new format. He seems to be yelling all the time and keeps repeating his talking points. The rest of the show is way too cutsie.

At least Colmes could present a different view. Not that I cared too much for him!

I do like O'Reilly. One of my guilty pleasures. I do not always agree but I do feel that his heart is in the right place. I do wonder why it is that any female guest or commentator comes on with a life time supply of lip gloss!

113 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:43:06am

re: #110 flagpony

I've just started reading the 5000 year leap as recommended by Neal Bortz and Honestly I haven't seen anything whacky yet.

Wonderful.

114 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:51:31am

Read Communist Goals of 1963 by Skousen, and ask yourself, "How many of these have already happened? And the few that haven't, which party is fighting to make them happen?"

And then try to dismiss everything Skousen says.

115 essayons7  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:59:11am

Since I trust Charles, I'm going to go ahead and look into this.

116 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:59:34am

re: #114 Lizard by the Bay

Read Communist Goals of 1963 by Skousen, and ask yourself, "How many of these have already happened?

From the link:

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

Ah, so Prozac is a communist plot after all!

117 Oh no...Sand People!  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:00:50am

I am interested in reading two works which I haven't had a chance to yet.

The Naked Communist and the Naked Capitalist. Both works for Skousen if IIRC.

I do share many things in common with Beck. I have also been known to break out the 'tinfoil' hat on most likely way too many occasions, (Just check my comment history for proof..heh.) However, when I get out of the 'information tidal wave' of the internet and walk out into the 'real' world. See that the sky still hasn't fallen. Businesses, though being taxed like crazy, still get by. People are still smiling. The 'doom and gloom' tends to fade away.

118 MPH  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:03:58am

I think Shepard Smith sees Fox News going off the rails too -- and he doesn't like it.

Did you see this?

119 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:04:48am

re: #114 Lizard by the Bay

From the link:

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

There seems to be a pattern developing here....

120 jvic  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:04:55am

Column after column, year after year, Victor Davis Hanson drones out his unblingy truths.

If conservativism survives this rudderless period, it will be because people like Hanson staid the course.

121 MPH  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:08:27am

re: #120 jvic

Column after column, year after year, Victor Davis Hanson drones out his unblingy truths.

If conservativism survives this rudderless period, it will be because people like Hanson staid the course.

"conservativism" is dead. Let freedom ring -- and let those former conservatives who believe in freedom meet those who are ready to fight for freedom for all people, regardless of religion or creed.

122 ellcon  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:10:01am

re: #118 MPH

Yup, although Shep Smith made an appearance on 'Freedom Watch' the other day.

123 Flighterdoc  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:10:07am

Fox went crazy a couple of years ago, when they started having more personality shows (fox and friends, etc) than real news or news analysis.

Too bad.

124 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:17:02am

When you've lost Victor Davis Hanson, you've lost me.

125 essayons7  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:24:21am

re: #121 MPH

What is your definition of conservatism? I didn't know conservativism was anti any religion or creed (within reason).

126 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #91 Kenneth

Charles,

Good work posting criticism of this idiot Glenn Beck. The GOP is doomed to the wilderness as long as paranoid windbags like Beck, Coulter et al are considered acceptable spokespeople of conservatism.

Remember, lizards, when you call someone like Beck, who should know better, an "idiot" or a "retard" - you're insulting mentally incompetent people.

But I suspect that's not why you got downdinged...

127 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:28:11am

re: #114 Lizard by the Bay

Read [link to uhuh.com] Communist Goals of 1963 by Skousen, and ask yourself, "How many of these have already happened? And the few that haven't, which party is fighting to make them happen?"

And then try to dismiss everything Skousen says.

Nice website you linked to there. Under the "N[ew]W[orld]O[rder]" subfolder, no less.

And the main page has a prominent link to a Ron Paul statement.

P.S. Ron Paul!

128 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:36:42am

re: #101 medaura18586

Her book defending the internment of Japanese Americans was disgraceful, and I firmly believe at least part of her choice of subject matter was dictated by her ethnic background: "Oh, look at me, I'm Asian and I'll write a book defending the internment of Japanese Americans."
...
Disgusting!

I don't know how this comment spiraled off into Malkin bashing, but I see an intimate analogy between her devolution and FOX's.

Nah, you're right. I used to handle VDARE with a pair of tongs. But one by one, the columnists there have proven to be EvilCons. (Last straw for me was Steve Sailer's increasingly antiSemitic rants last month; I guess I should have quit reading that guy years ago, huh.) VDARE shouldn't even be handled with Ray's "ten metre cattle prod" anymore; it needs to be isolated in a stasis chamber and monitored lest any of its inmates escape and slime us with its concentrated ectoplasmic lunacy.

129 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:40:46am

Webmaster of uhuh.com: Forest Glen Durland. He's currently an obscure figure, except to kooks, who like to copy and paste his weirdness over the 'web.

130 mockery jones  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:43:28am

glenn beck is a talentless hack with about as much journalistic credibility as keith olberman. those two being on the air at the same point in history brings to mind a quote from Yeat's second coming

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. "

131 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:54:06am
132 oh_dude  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:56:43am

I don't get this. Are there conservatives out there who think that Fox news is some sort of hallowed ground? It's a business just like CNN, ABC and all the rest. If an elephant standing on it's hind legs trumpeting attracted the current Fox News demographic better than Hannity or Beck, they'd put it on in a heartbeat.

People slam CNN and the like all day long for their bias, shoddy work and general tendency to be ratings whores. Is Fox News somehow exempt from all this?

I bet there's plenty of Democrats out there who cringe watching CNN.

The way people talk, it's as if they feel that Fox News represents or is controlled by the RNC (now there's a conspiracy theory). I guess there's some people who believe that's true.

Is anyone actually surprised by the sensationalistic stuff that makes it's way on to FNC? It's what the American viewer wants right now. How else do you explain American Idol or Paradise Hotel? (both Fox properties BTW)

133 The_Vig  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:59:05am

You know what I want. How about a news channel that actually goes into depth in its reporting. If I watch Fox I am bored after 20 min. It is the same stories over and over. When they do get a good guest on, he is on for 5 min's and then we are off to a commercial. Nothing but surfaces and reflections. How about some actual reporting on science? Nothing of any substance. Everything is starting to seem stale. Especially Geraldo's mustache.

134 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:03:48am

Here is some Extremist Rhetoric:

We will convey,” said Barack Obama to the Turkish Parliament Monday, “our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over the centuries to shape the world — including in my own country.”

135 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:07:48am

re: #131 Lizard by the Bay

[Link: www.rense.com...]

Are you linking to Rense's site as an endorsement?

136 Gus  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:11:08am

re: #134 Boxy_brown

Here is some Extremist Rhetoric:

Here's one that President Bush made:

America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."

Presidential Message Eid al-Fitr
December 5, 2002

Many more that he made can be found here.

137 walahi  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:12:33am

I have written before about the arbitrariness of red team/blue team politics, which is where we find ourselves. On top of that we have an alarmist global media that reduces complex economic problems to hyperbole and a president who endorses this simplistic view.

I have long wanted to write about conservatism as a movement. What is it we wish to conserve? Essentially I think people who term themselves conservatives can agree that politically they believe in free-market capitalism, individual freedom, liberal democracy(in the classic sense), and the rule of law. Through a variety of means I wont expound on here, conservatives have become portrayed as cartoonish buffoons, usually from the South or Midwest, brandishing a weapon in one hand and a Bible in the other. Mr Cartoon Conservative is ignorant, simple and in the way of a better society on the media stage.

The matter is not made any better when people like Glenn Beck purport to espouse conservative ideals. It is simply apocalyptic gibberish that might perhaps pass as tongue-in-cheek entertainment if it wasn't so faithfully taken to heart.

Fox News has been in a slide for a while. I don't tune in and if I do I stick to Red Eye with Greg Gutfeld. At least he makes no bones about being an entertainment show complete with offensive juvenile humour at which even I roll my eyes from time to time.

If 'conservatives' want to get back into politics certain benchmarks need to be met:

The first is that where there is no leader, be one yourself. It's your obligation as a citizen to take care of what you believe in. There is no political messiah coming. One from amongst us will be primus inter pares but definately not some cult leader (a la the 'progressives') Seldom do conservatives follow personalities; they tend to prefer ideals and principles

Secondly, take the arguments with opposing views to a place they cannot follow, the facts. Now as per Saul Alinsky, the idea to ridicule and discredit your opponent works everytime if you let it. Just ask George W. Bush. The guy made plenty of mistakes (with which I take issue with the man), but he did a mighty fine job of keeping America and the American world vision alive and well in the face of hate and violence. The media has done a fantastic job of portraying Republicans (and by analogy, conservatives) as dolts. It's hard but the tables need to be turned on the other side; make'em play defence.

Thirdly, education, education, education. Conservatives need to retake the class room AND media. At the very least, there needs to be a sizable voice. Old media has been usurped and very rapidly new media (internet) is rapdily becoming a battle ground of extremes with more reasoned voices (on both sides of the debate) drowned out by rude, vicious ad hominem attacks based on dry information (if not outright lies).

Academia is now a tower of indoctrination and we are going to need that tower back. Not to teach what to think but to teach people how to learn.

Now I do my bit here in England. I know a lot of you over in the US see Europe as a sort of lost cause. It's not. No place is a lost cause. It needs work and it needs commitment. Fleeing in the face of challenges is cowardly, its not conservative and it will only makes things worse. Conservatism is dead it's true. The reason is that 'conservatives' (supposedly Republicans and Tories alike) started defining themselves as being 'not-the-other-party' (Labour and Democrats). What was ideal is that to preserve and defend? I detest Labour but that's not my political platform.

'Conservatism' doesn't exist since 'conservatives' are splintered and defending different competing interests. The only uniting element is that they aren't liberals and that is not enough. That may get you one election (see Obama) but it wont build a society.

So what society do you want to live in? I think if conservatives stick to the principles I listed above, support will be more forth-coming.

Just had to get that off my chest, sorry if it's OT

138 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:12:43am

re: #131 Lizard by the Bay

[links to an array of crazed sites

Jesus.

139 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:18:30am

re: #138 Zimriel

Jesus.

That was more craziness than I've seen my entire life...*shudder*

140 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:20:53am

re: #131 Lizard by the Bay


What the hell is wrong with you?

Rense.com? Asleepknowmore.com? And about a dozen more equally insane fringe and far right websites?

Have you lost your mind?

141 essayons7  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:24:04am

re: #137 walahi

Outstanding post - well done.

142 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:25:00am

re: #138 Zimriel

Jesus.

This whole scene is turning out to be like a nuclear reaction, with cascading neutrons...

143 Egregious Philbin  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:26:38am

re: #28 jwb7605

Bummer. FreeRepublic was added to the kook list a while back, so in good conscience, I can't check the link out. I'm confining myself only to sensible and approved material, as determined by the world.

////

Amen to that, FR has become as welcome to the Republican party as a porcupine on a rubber life raft. They went deep into Koo-Koo land and drove off any actual thinkers. The purges of anyone with a scientific background (them evil evolutionists) was particularly galling.

Oh well, plenty of room on the interwebs these days.

144 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:29:28am

re: #136 Gus 802

Here's one that President Bush made:

America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."

Presidential Message Eid al-Fitr
December 5, 2002

Many more that he made can be found here.

And? It's not thanking them for islam itself and stating that it shaped the USA. The only thing that islam has shaped in the USA is the skyline in lower Manhattan. Even if it were would that somehow make this suck-up tour OK? If Bush was a boob, does that make it fine for Obama to be a bigger one?

When are we going to be rid of the idiots?

145 Gus  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #144 Boxy_brown

And? It's not thanking them for islam itself and stating that it shaped the USA. The only thing that islam has shaped in the USA is the skyline in lower Manhattan. Even if it were would that somehow make this suck-up tour OK? If Bush was a boob, does that make it fine for Obama to be a bigger one?

When are we going to be rid of the idiots?

Here's one in which President Bush further explains the contributions from Muslims:

"Here in the United States our Muslim citizens are making many contributions in business, science and law, medicine and education, and in other fields. Muslim members of our Armed Forces and of my administration are serving their fellow Americans with distinction, upholding our nation's ideals of liberty and justice in a world at peace."

Remarks by the President on Eid Al-Fitr
The Islamic Center of Washington, D.C.
December 5, 2002

You're reading too much into Obama's comment. The same has been said in the past by other American heads of state in an effort not turn this into a Holy War that the End of Times faction would have us do.

146 Drained Brain  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:58:27am

re: #132 oh_dude

I don't get this. Are there conservatives out there who think that Fox news is some sort of hallowed ground? It's a business just like CNN, ABC and all the rest. If an elephant standing on it's hind legs trumpeting attracted the current Fox News demographic better than Hannity or Beck, they'd put it on in a heartbeat.

People slam CNN and the like all day long for their bias, shoddy work and general tendency to be ratings whores. Is Fox News somehow exempt from all this?

I bet there's plenty of Democrats out there who cringe watching CNN.

The way people talk, it's as if they feel that Fox News represents or is controlled by the RNC (now there's a conspiracy theory). I guess there's some people who believe that's true.

Is anyone actually surprised by the sensationalistic stuff that makes it's way on to FNC? It's what the American viewer wants right now. How else do you explain American Idol or Paradise Hotel? (both Fox properties BTW)

In point of fact, isn't that how Obama got elected? The entire Obama drama is best viewed as a populace electing this improbable figure as if we're all plaing parts in a movie - think Robin Williams in Man of The Year for example.

My own adult children get most of their "news" from The Daily Show, Colbert, or People Magazine. Yes, they all have college degrees and I'm the dad who raised them. I think they're more in the majority than I am.

Or, as Oscar Wilde said, life is an imitation of art.

147 Olderthandirt  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:10:25pm

Since we've been watching FNC, my wife and I both felt that O'Reilly and Hannity (Along with his former pal Colmes) had problems regarding their invited guests. O'Reilly spouts on and on and then tells his guest "You've got the last x-seconds" where "X" varies. Ok, this might be an exaggeration but very typical of O'Reilly. Same with Hannity and was also typical of Colmes too.

Point is that many times their guests were of interest, not the hosts. Also, FNC's news readers used to seem to leave their politics at home. But recently the weekend readers emote visibly when reporting on Obama; never seen too much on FNC and their reporting seems more to be from the DNC.

The value of FNC in my opinion was that the MSM's worship of the Left was not too present, most of the time. Frankly, the political leanings of a newsperson is not important, what is important is whether news reports are based on facts or on a desired outcome.

The whole issue of news reporting could change rapidly where cable news channels could experience the same kind decline as newspapers. The net is now a valued source except people have to more use their own noodle to determine which net source to read. Web sites like Geller's and other need extremists to understand that propaganda is not what many of us want; I can get that in the local Star Tribune (Red Star/Pravda by another name!)!

So anyway, the fight is on and who knows how this will wrap up. Times, they are a-changing.

148 senator  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:36:17pm

Charles,

Your posts seem to be becoming increasingly reactionary, almost as bad as the far-right broadcasts on FoxNews you claim to despise. I've seen more disrespect on your blog aimed at other conservatives in the past 3 months than in the past 6 years I've been coming to this site, and I think you may be losing perspective here.

Not that you owe him (or anyone) any respect, because of course you don't, but people like Glenn Beck aren't ruining the GOP. What is most damaging is the infighting (Reagan warned of this) that results from people who are "afraid of what the neighbors might think, " with the neighbors in this case being the left (since they have been the most adamantly opposed to Republican populist media). Since when did we feel the need to validate and then placate them in their allegations, anyway?

Republicans have always been the best at savaging one another, because there seems to be less tolerance over hair-splitting the issues among those our party (i.e. moderate republicans bad-mouthing the Christian-right, the Christian-right bad-mouthing the moderates, and those with contempt for traditionalists because they make us look naive, etc.). The democrats excel at exploiting this weakness, and will turn the cracks that we ourselves (the blogosphere) create into fissures that can't be closed.

Instead of trying to bash Glenn Beck, the creationists, Ron Paulians, etc... Why not try ignoring them for a while and stick to the issues that made this blog one of the best on the web - and the reason I started reading you after your switch from being a democrat in the wake of 9/11 - Good analysis of terrorist threats, the political machine of the left and the bias of the mainstream media. :)

Thanks,

Dan

Come back, Charles. We miss you.

149 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:38:49pm

re: #148 senator


Come back, Charles. We miss you.

It must be the fluoride in the water...

150 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:42:43pm

re: #148 senator

I see on your "latter day" website you discuss the Oct 2007 fires in Southern California. So, do you agree with Glenn Beck that these people didn't love America?

151 Caboose  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:47:16pm

re: #84 turn

You know I sort of miss Colmes too, since he has been gone Hanity has changed the format of the show to be the right wing equivalent of Olberman. I don't watch Hanity anymore.

I call it "Hannity's Insanities". My wife still watches Fox News, even though I've advised her that it is just making her depressed. Saw a segment the other evening that had some 20-something, British-sounding redheaded-bubblehead from eMpTyV as part of the panel. This nitwit is what passes for intelligent?!? If it wasn't for the fact that she was easy on the eyes, I couldn't see any reason to have her on the show (and it was a "show"). My impression of her was that she couldn't get an order for glass of water, no ice, right.

But I still don't miss Skeletor. I think he is better off at his new job, haunting sewer systems in the NW USA to frighten little kids...

"Skeletor, the Seattle Sewer Spectre will getcha if you don't finish your arugula, asparagus and silken tofu burger, Ms. Rainbarrel-Che Ramirez-Chen!"
"No, not Skeletor, Mommie!"

152 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:48:46pm
153 reggie  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:52:38pm

Here's what started turning me off to Fox News ago: when I noticed how the morning team tells the news stories. They literally "tell the stories." I feel like its nap time in kindergarten. It's somewhat humorous to watch in that context. Just listen to the peppy vocal tone when reporting how Sparky got lost from the family on a road trip but found his way home across several states. Then listen to the scary tone taken immediately in the following story that reports on violence along the Mexico border. It really is quite funny.

154 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:52:49pm

re: #152 SENATOR

re: #152 SENATOR

Do you agree with GLENN BECK that the people who lost their houses in those fires hated America?

It was (to the best documented evidence) Glenn Beck who made that claim, not some un-named "leftist".

155 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 12:57:17pm

re: #145 Gus 802

Here's one in which President Bush further explains the contributions from Muslims:

"Here in the United States our Muslim citizens are making many contributions in business, science and law, medicine and education, and in other fields. Muslim members of our Armed Forces and of my administration are serving their fellow Americans with distinction, upholding our nation's ideals of liberty and justice in a world at peace."

Again, What does that have to do with anything? If Bush was a boob, does that make it fine for Obama to be a bigger one?

You're reading too much into Obama's comment. The same has been said in the past by other American heads of state in an effort not turn this into a Holy War that the End of Times faction would have us do.

I am not an "end of times" faction member, thank you. I do however think it is repugnant that our head of state goes over and kisses ass, bows and manufactures fantasies about non-existent contributions. Especially with some of those same people are funding the madrassas that have taught generations of jihadies to hate our guts.

Giuliani had the guts to return their check and not indulge their victim complex. Obama has practically apologized for this country defending itself and done his best to de-legitimize the tactics and reasons for doing so. Bush never did that. Bush never coddled Iran and Bush never went wobbly on Israel either. Even if he had, it still wouldn't excuse Obama for doing the same.

156 Gus  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:05:24pm

re: #155 Boxy_brown

OK, good points. I'd add that Obama will no doubt be the bigger of the boobs.

I should get back to work.

157 wiles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:19:52pm

Have you read Tragedy and Hope and The Anglo-Establishment? Read Strobe Talbot's The Great Experiment (2008)? Skousen may have been a nerd, but he wasn't stupid. For the record, Beck reminds me of a televangelist. Can't watch him longer than five seconds.

158 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:24:15pm

re: #140 Charles

Charles. I googled Communist Goals 1963, and linked the first dozen sites that come up. (Try it, you'll see). I am not responsible for what order Google serves this shit up. I vetted none of the sites before linking them other than to determine that the list had been published.

By the way, the point of my deleted post is that the website is not the point (they're all just places where a piece of the Congressional record and an excerpt of a widely available book can be read), and it's a convenient way of distracting attention away from the fact that you don't like just how prescient and non-kooky that list is.

159 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:26:25pm

re: #148 senator

Come back, Charles. We miss you.

Well, I won't miss you.

160 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:32:26pm

re: #157 wiles

Did you listen to the recording of Skousen on Google, to which Charles linked in the keypost?

161 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:35:15pm

re: #158 Lizard by the Bay

Charles. I googled Communist Goals 1963, and linked the first dozen sites that come up. (Try it, you'll see). I am not responsible for what order Google serves this shit up. I vetted none of the sites before linking them other than to determine that the list had been published.

Well, that's where you went wrong, isn't it?

It is YOUR responsibility to vet EVERY link you put here from outside. You're not paying Charles to be your fucking proofreader. Charles does not want his site used as one of those linkers which boost the lunatics' Google ratings and frankly, neither do I.

By the way, the point of my deleted post is that the website is not the point (they're all just places where a piece of the Congressional record and an excerpt of a widely available book can be read),

No, the fact that all these whackjob sites refer to that passage should have warned you what you were getting yourself, and this site, into.

I know of several forgeries (there's a famous one attributed to one "Israel Cohen") which have been read into the Congressional record. Just because it is in the record and is cited by a lot of websites does NOT make it true. More likely, especially given the character of those sites, that makes it the opposite of true.

and it's a convenient way of distracting attention away from the fact that you don't like just how prescient and non-kooky that list is.

Oh, so now you're accusing those of us you called you on your bullshit of deliberate misdirection. Gee, how classy.

162 Lizard by the Bay  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:38:04pm

re: #160 freetoken

Did you listen to the recording of Skousen on Google, to which Charles linked in the keypost?

Yes, and I fail to see how it invalidates any of the fundamental truths about Communism that the man has published over the years.

Look, it's easy to cherry pick someone's life work and label them whatever. I shudder to think how some of you would have treated Nikola Tesla in his day. For every utterly brilliant idea the man had, he had three totally bat-shit ones. But his genius lives on every time you flick a switch at home. Even Edison had to abandon his DC generators in favor of Tesla's AC.

163 wiles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:40:10pm

re: #160 freetoken

Not yet. Will do so now. My landlord used to give me books (thirty years ago) by Skousen (The Naked Capitalist, etc) and others like him (None Dare Call it Conspiracy, ad nauseum, and after I got past the fear and trembling inherent in books like these and the John Birch mentality in general, I got on to some real research (Quigley's books, by the way, are genius, brilliant) and, lo and behold, discovered that indeed America was and presently is, being f*cked in the ass by the establishment (no revelation there any longer, eh?). Little civil wars between LGF and (the mis-named - because she knows nothing of liberty) Atlas Shrugs and the paranoid Robert Spencer are sideshows -- diversions that keep us from paying attention to the important things.

164 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:40:51pm

re: #162 Lizard by the Bay

Yes, and I fail to see how it invalidates any of the fundamental truths about Communism that the man has published over the years.

Look, it's easy to cherry pick someone's life work and label them whatever. I shudder to think how some of you would have treated Nikola Tesla in his day. For every utterly brilliant idea the man had, he had three totally bat-shit ones. But his genius lives on every time you flick a switch at home. Even Edison had to abandon his DC generators in favor of Tesla's AC.

Tesla discovered new information. Skousen repackaged already-known information about the dangers of Communism alongside his kookery. He's like a bad engineer who pretends to be the inventor of the steam engine.

165 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:44:22pm

re: #163 wiles

Not yet. Will do so now. My landlord used to give me books (thirty years ago) by Skousen (The Naked Capitalist, etc) and others like him (None Dare Call it Conspiracy, ad nauseum, and after I got past the fear and trembling inherent in books like these and the John Birch mentality in general, I got on to some real research (Quigley's books, by the way, are genius, brilliant)

Here's wikipedia on Carroll Quigley -

In his book The Anglo-American Establishment: From Rhodes to Cliveden, written in 1949 but published posthumously in 1981, Quigley purports to trace the history of a secret society founded in 1891 by Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Milner. The society consisted of an inner circle (“The Society of the Elect”) and an outer circle (“The Association of Helpers”).[11] The society as a whole does not have a fixed name:

This society has been known at various times as Milner's Kindergarten, as the Round Table Group, as the Rhodes crowd, as The Times crowd, as the All Souls group, and as the Cliveden set. ... I have chosen to call it the Milner group. Those persons who have used the other terms, or heard them used, have not generally been aware that all these various terms referred to the same Group. It is not easy for an outsider to write the history of a secret group of this kind, but, since no insider is going to do it, an outsider must attempt it. It should be done, for this Group is, as I shall show, one of the most important historical facts of the twentieth century.[12]

Quigley assigns this group primary or exclusive credit for several historical events: the Jameson Raid, the Second Boer War, the founding of the Union of South Africa, the replacement of the British Empire with the Commonwealth of Nations, and a number of Britain’s foreign policy decisions in the twentieth century.[13]

Quack!

166 wiles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:46:09pm

re: #160 freetoken

OK, only needed to give it thirty seconds to know that I don't need to listen further. But get over it. We've lost our country, and whether it's a fundie (mis)using the Bible to alert us to it (and by the way, Robert Welch -- the founder of the John Birch Society -- was no Bible thumper and may in fact have been an atheist) or an atheist like Murray Rothbard, the fact remains: we're screwed.

167 wiles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 1:50:52pm

re: #165 Zimriel

Read Tragedy and Hope (in which only a minute portion is taken up with what became the seeds for Skousen, et al's conspiracy theories) and then tell me he was a quack. The thing is, none of this has been a conspiracy at all (the founding of the Fed was more a retreat for banker assholes than it was a secret meeting, though secret it was, at least for a while). One only needs some basic economic literacy, an understanding of the Constitution and its intellectual origins, and literacy regarding modern revolution, and it thus becomes obvious what's been happening for 150 years in the West.

168 wiles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:02:09pm
(and by the way, Robert Welch -- the founder of the John Birch Society -- was no Bible thumper and may in fact have been an atheist)

I just googled Welch -- guess he was a Bible thumper as a youth, but later became a Unitarian and remained so the rest of his life.

169 el guapo  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:10:04pm

I love VDH...and I love Charles, but the one thing that is being ignored is that Bush Co. and conservatives in general have been taking the high road for a while and all it has accomplished is a near super majority in the House and a borderline socialist President. Fire with fire perhaps? The high road does not seem to work.

170 Athens Runaway  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:14:39pm

Isn't David Frum the guy who keeps on saying that conservatism is dead and that we have to come up with a "new conservatism" to appeal to the youngin's, as well as the guy the media trots out whenever they want a "conservative" to lend credibility to attacks on conservatives? Jus' saying...

171 wiles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:16:28pm

re: #169 el guapo

Bush taking the high road? Which road, exactly, was that? Guess I missed the exit.

172 wiles  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:19:41pm

re: #170 Athens Runaway

Frum's a man desperate to keep a gig. He's the kind of hack who spends so much time trying to lead a comfortable life that he's lost his soul in the process. Gerald Ford woulda dug David Frum.

173 RJ77  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:45:37pm

I would much rather be associated with a man like Dr. Ron Paul, who is a veteran and constitutionalist, than with a neo-con RINO like David Scum.

174 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:47:52pm
175 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 2:59:08pm

re: #173 RJ77

And now the antisemites and Paulians are showing up. Are we having fun yet?

176 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:00:27pm

Birchers and Paulians and Jew-haters, oh my!

177 SpaceJesus  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:06:07pm

indeed, the end times have arrived. just only for the beck lovers that is.

178 RedVoter  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:11:17pm

Victor Davis Hanson is one of my favorite conservative thinkers and writers out there, right next to Krauthammer and Jonah Goldberg. I agree that Fox News seems more concerned with entertainment than actual news. They're obsessed with car chases, tabloids and gossip during their daytime shows. I don't feel as if I am learning anything about what is going on in the world while watching. I don't mind the eye candy though.

As far as their evening lineup (Glenn Beck to Greta), I have mixed feelings. I always thought beck was loopy, but he has a very entertaining show and I find that calling him a kook, as many on the right have, is unfair. He doesn't advocate any of these crazy conspiracies people accuse him of doing. Not that I have noticed while watching his show. When talking about "The 5,000 Year Leap", he was referring to the unapologetically pro-American and pro-capitalist message of the book; not whatever conspiracies the author subscribed to. The book puts forth the same argument that Ayn Rand often put forth, that Capitalism and Democracy are inextricably linked and beneficial to society. I can't argue with that.

I do miss Brit Hume, but Baier will grow into his new role over time and Special Report still provides one half hour of honest and balanced news and another half hour of insightful discussion.

O'reilly has fluffed up his show quite a bit. He still has good debates now and then though and his Dennis Miller segments are great. I wish he would get rid of that stupid Body Language segment though and yes, he needs to have more seasoned pundits to engage with. The occasional Brit Hume is not enough.

And then there is Hannity and Greta. Greta is not my cup of tea, I'm not interested in watching coverage of celebrity trials but Hannity is surprisingly entertaining. His Radio Show is nothing but talking points from the GOP but his hour on Fox is surprisingly entertaining.

Cavuto is great and I don't watch the Weekend programming other than Fox News Sunday which is the best Sunday News show around. Oh, Red Eye is a guilty pleasure as well.

Beck seems to be the main issue here and draws the most ire from both Conservatives and Liberals. I honestly think a lot of it has to do with jealousy and insecurity. Conservatives need to stop being embarrassed for themselves. He's not the kook so many claim he is (Goldwater and Reagan were accused of being the same) and he is entertaining. Would I like for a more serious show to be on Fox featuring the great Conservative thinkers of our time? Yes. Would I like to see another Firing Line? Absolutely. But we're not going to get that on TV anytime soon. All of media has deteriorated.

As for David Frum, I still like him and I do think that the next cycle of elections needs to "be about the economy, stupid". We have a real opening here when it comes to economic policy, but this does not mean Conservatives should run away from Social Conservatives or that we should attack Libertarian Conservatives. Frum goes after Social conservatives and Palin, Frum goes after Libertarians and Beck...are there any Conservatives he does like? He was an ardent defender of George W. Bush, deficit spending and all, but now we should listen to him concerning the party's future? With all due respect, he was part of the problem at one time.

179 MJBrutus  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:17:43pm

They do still air the Journal Editorial Report :-)

180 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:18:56pm

re: #175 Charles

Look at its blog....

Oh, well. At least he's White!


and lots more. These are the people the GOP is openly courting. It's horrific.

181 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:22:34pm

As soon as you criticize Glenn Beck, out come the cranks and the kooks. John Birchers. People citing Carroll Quigley with approval. Ron Paul drones.

I'm sure it's just coincidence.

182 Athos  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:23:57pm

re: #180 Killgore Trout

Look at its blog....


and lots more. These are the people the GOP is openly courting. It's horrific.

At some point the GOP has to realize that the path to victory is not out outdoing the Democrat Party in their embracement of the fringe. It will come based on principles and the ability to articulate cogent ideas and visions that resonates with middle America and support the core values of this country.

183 Yashmak  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:28:33pm

re: #148 senator


Instead of trying to bash Glenn Beck, the creationists, Ron Paulians, etc... Why not try ignoring them for a while and stick to the issues that made this blog one of the best on the web - and the reason I started reading you after your switch from being a democrat in the wake of 9/11 - Good analysis of terrorist threats, the political machine of the left and the bias of the mainstream media. :)

What incredible tripe. Why rational person ignore even a small outbreak of festering sores on their body? Maybe someone paralyzed, or in a coma, but those are about the only examples I can think of. Similarly, no cognizant politically active person is going to ignore an outbreak of activities within their favored political party which they find abhorrent.

184 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:29:25pm

re: #166 wiles

OK, only needed to give it thirty seconds to know that I don't need to listen further. But get over it. We've lost our country, and whether it's a fundie (mis)using the Bible to alert us to it (and by the way, Robert Welch -- the founder of the John Birch Society -- was no Bible thumper and may in fact have been an atheist) or an atheist like Murray Rothbard, the fact remains: we're screwed.

I'm very familiar with Austrian economics -- Ludwig von Mises is my favorite economist -- and am a proponent of hard-money and open banking. When Mises came to the U.S. when he was being persecuted by the Nazis, the intellectual climate here was statist and collectivistic. He was an outcast with very few followers -- all eccentric personalities. Out of them, Hayek was a serious intellectual who developed Mises's ideas and even went on to win the Nobel price in economics, as well as become a mentor and inspiration to Margaret Thatcher. Murray Rothbard, on the other hand, while also extremely intelligent, was a nutjob. He kept his anarchist tendencies in check while Mises was alive, then jumped the shark after his death. I have read his core works: there is valuable research and analysis to be found there, but the man's moral compass was a mess. He was a radical anarchist with emotional problems toward authority, and his bizarro philosophical views colored his academic pursuits as well.

Quoting as an authority and a guide an avowed anarchist who has advocated the dismantlement of the U.S. government won't get you far rhetorically in any sane circles.

185 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:30:23pm
186 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:34:42pm

This is ridiculous. If you want to promote Cleon Skousen or the John Birch Society, do it at your own blog. I'm not going to allow any more of this extremist crap here.

187 ronsfi  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:52:24pm

Glen Beck = 12 Steps + 12 Apostles + 1 Fruit Cake.

188 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 3:58:02pm

re: #178 RedVoter

When talking about "The 5,000 Year Leap", he was referring to the unapologetically pro-American and pro-capitalist message of the book; not whatever conspiracies the author subscribed to.

The book puts forth the same argument that Ayn Rand often put forth, that Capitalism and Democracy are inextricably linked and beneficial to society. I can't argue with that.


Beck's backing bumps Skousen book to top
:

"They are words of wisdom that I can only describe as divinely inspired," Beck continued in his introduction.

From the list of principles in The 5,000 Year Leap:

"Principle 28 - The United States has a manifest destiny to eventually become a glorious example of God's law under a restored Constitution that will inspire the entire human race."

This was written by a very religious Mormon (and is being pushed by one too, Beck), and to understand the context it might be best to understand the Mormon doctrines of what the US is supposed to be.

189 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:16:02pm

By the way, Charles, I ought to thank you for explicitly pushing Beck's crap down my throat. I don't watch TV at all (we don't even have cable) but whenever I spot Rush Limbaugh's, Sean Hannity's, Michael Savage's, and Glenn Beck's voices on the radio (usually during road trips on rental cars) I just reflexively change the station. There're not exactly interchangeable content-wise, but there's something nauseating in their voices: angry, monotonic, thumping, blood-pressure raising. If I didn't know English and just heard the sounds as spirited gibberish, I'd probably think it's some fascist screed. Through LGF I've been keeping current on the insanity without having my poor ears exposed to it straight from the jarring source.

190 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:16:46pm

re: #189 medaura18586

PIMF (jee, what's wrong with me today!): They're not exactly interchangeable content-wise

191 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:28:51pm

re: #189 medaura18586

but there's something nauseating in their voices: angry, monotonic, thumping, blood-pressure raising. If I didn't know English and just heard the sounds as spirited gibberish, I'd probably think it's some fascist screed.

I've never lived in Albania or Yugoslavia... is this from personal experience? Where did you have to listen to this?

192 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:32:43pm

re: #188 freetoken

This was written by a very religious Mormon (and is being pushed by one too, Beck), and to understand the context it might be best to understand the Mormon doctrines of what the US is supposed to be.

Yeah, this "God's Law" talk gives me the CREEPS. Unlike some (maybe on both sides) I read Washington's address as a call for a religious people but a strictly secular state. Never, ever, ever did Washington want a shari'a code over the US.

193 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:34:24pm

I think someone we know may have posted Anon 4:18PM... it might be good for some lulz to compare IPs.

194 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:39:45pm

re: #191 Zimriel

I've never lived in Albania or Yugoslavia... is this from personal experience? Where did you have to listen to this?

I haven't lived in Albania since early August 2003. I moved to Nebraska for a year as an exchange student, then Canada for university, and now I live in Manhattan. No we don't get U.S. radio-shows in Albania ;).

195 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:39:54pm

I hope not, at least.

196 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:42:01pm

But I honestly can't conceive of people willingly subjecting their senses to those angry voices for hours, and loving it. What's most hilarious is Laura Ingram... she sounds like she wants to emulate the boys' club and puts on a very manly monotonous voice. Insufferable!

197 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 4:57:12pm

re: #169 el guapo

I love VDH...and I love Charles, but the one thing that is being ignored is that Bush Co. and conservatives in general have been taking the high road for a while and all it has accomplished is a near super majority in the House and a borderline socialist President. Fire with fire perhaps? The high road does not seem to work.

No- I think the problem isn't the "high road" it's that "compassionate conservatism" is really socialist republicanism. Why vote for a fake socialist when you can vote for the real thing?

198 medaura18586  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 5:09:32pm

re: #197 Sharmuta

Amen!

199 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 5:14:57pm

re: #193 Zimriel

I think someone we know may have posted Anon 4:18PM... it might be good for some lulz to compare IPs.

Isn't that nice? The stalkers show up at Amit Ghate's blog!

I live inside their heads. I put in a nice sofa set, and a 47" flat screen TV. And I watch science shows all day long.

200 mspfacs  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 5:17:19pm

I agree entirely with Charles on his Glen Beck #2

201 Banner  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 6:48:49pm

It really bothers me that Beck is identified as a conservative. He really isn't.

202 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:04:27pm
203 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:31:14pm
204 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:38:35pm
205 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:40:30pm
206 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:45:18pm
207 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 8:59:47pm
208 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:03:10pm
209 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:28:11pm

Apparently some people couldn't be bothered to read what I wrote:

This is ridiculous. If you want to promote Cleon Skousen or the John Birch Society, do it at your own blog. I'm not going to allow any more of this extremist crap here.

So now I'm simply going to block people who promote this crap.

210 TedStriker  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 9:45:28pm

re: #209 Charles

Apparently some people couldn't be bothered to read what I wrote:

So now I'm simply going to block people who promote this crap.

Wow, that must of been a bumper crop of crazy here at the end of the thread...

211 lightspeed  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:03:07pm

What the hell is going on here? Can we all put away the long knives for a few minutes and take a deep breath? The comments lately have become mean-spirited and reactionary, even, occasionally, from our gracious host. Beck is a modern day Jeremiah, prophesying the doom of a wayward nation. I say Jeremiah, because he clearly believes in what he says and for him it has a religious grounding. To some, this pushes him (and Skousen) into the realm of the kooks and wackos, superstitious and paranoid. Perhaps. But, to be honest, it really doesn't bother me that much. I am not religious, though I believe in God and am well-educated in Christian theology. I have been around many devoutly Christian people who see the hand of God in their everyday lives. More power to them. Beck, like them, is simply espousing his worldview and applying it to current events. We all do this.

Does Beck believe were are living in the end times? Probably. I guess I tune a lot of that stuff out. I don't think he is really all that extreme. He sensationalizes and exaggerates and plays the drama queen, but I find it kinda funny. He's like the crazy friend who always has some inside information to share with you about what's really going on behind the scenes. You humor him and laugh it off internally, but it sticks in the back of your mind because it all makes an eerie kind of sense. But you still don't leave him alone with the kids.

Anyway, tearing him down and fighting amongst ourselves is going to get us exactly nowhere. There are many, many people who think the way Beck does, and they should be our friends and allies, not kicked to the curb. They are (mostly) good people. You may believe they are mistaken or misguided, but that is all the more reason to welcome them into the fold and persuade them through reasoned, civil discourse where they are wrong and you are right. And, in the process, don't be surprised if you can learn a few things from them as well. We are all Americans. We mostly want the same things out of life and we share much common ground. A friendly debate between a conservative and a liberal is just about impossible these days. We can agree to disagree, but, in the words of Pink Floyd (as voiced by Stephen Hawking), "all we need to do, is keep talking."

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we will all hang separately." - Ben Franklin

212 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 10:54:49pm

re: #211 lightspeed

What the hell is going on here?

What the hell is going on is that we had a bunch of people promoting a John Birch Society wacko, Ron Paul, and all kinds of other completely out of bounds crap. I warned them not to do it, but they sneaked back in when everyone else moved on to another thread, and proceeded to shit all over my site with their racist conspiracy trash.

John Birchers are not welcome at LGF. I don't know how to make this any more clear, but I am simply not going to allow it here.

213 freetoken  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:18:59pm

re: #211 lightspeed

To some, this pushes him (and Skousen) into the realm of the kooks and wackos, superstitious and paranoid. Perhaps.

I apologize for being rational and expecting others to be so.

Since you asked for it:

214 gman  Wed, Apr 8, 2009 11:21:50pm

Thank you for this site, Charles. I've got a lot of respect for the way you always try to be balanced. You're actually trying to do the Republican Party a favor by being critical of the news outlet that most conservatives watch. Look at the bigger picture, people.

215 Yashmak  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 7:14:33am

re: #211 lightspeed


"We must all hang together, or assuredly we will all hang separately." - Ben Franklin

Ben's comment assumes a group working towards a common goal, of mutual interest to all involved. Most of us here want no part of Beck's vision of the future.

216 shane  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 8:06:16am

Glenn Beck is definitely overboard. And the Hannity show is not much better. If they keep going they are going to go from number 1 news show to Coast to Coast AM cable program.

217 lightspeed  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 9:00:45am

re: #212 Charles

John Birchers are not welcome at LGF.

Fine. Ban 'em. Dismiss them as kooks. You may want to consider banning these other conspiracy theorists:

* Paulians (naturally)
* Kennedy assassination conspiracy buffs
* Princess Diana conspiracy buffs
* Wahabbist conspiracy nuts
* UFO believers
* Global Warming deniers
* Fans of Phillip K. Dick
* Furries
* Liberals
* And, let's not forget the biggest conspiracy nuts of all. I'll give you a hint: They believe that a demonic being will secretly rise to a position of power and start massive wars that will lay waste to the Earth. He will only be vanquished by the return of a long dead savior who will then rule the Earth for a bit before taking all of the nice people away to a beatific paradise.

In the end, it's your site. If you feel that the views of John Birchers (of which I am only passingly familiar) are so objectionable that you don't want them here, OK. But I hope you are not saying the John Birchers can't participate here in discussions as long as they keep the "nutty" stuff out of it. We should always be open to debating those with whom we disagree, as long as it is rational and respectful. People are wrong about a lot of things, but open minds can be changed.

218 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 9:12:42am

re: #217 lightspeed

Are you a John Bircher?

219 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 9:14:30am

And yes, I am saying that I don't want John Birchers at my site. Racist far-right conspiracy trash is not welcome. I thought I was pretty damned clear about that, but apparently you still want to question it.

220 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 9:24:25am
221 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 9:28:55am

I repeat:

So now I'm simply going to block people who promote this crap.

Don't email me complaining about it.

222 freetoken  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 9:31:26am

re: #220 martdod

"5000 Year Leap" is a religious tome on "manifest destiny" from a Mormon theological bent. It reinterprets American history through that religious lens.

BTW, the audio version is available for downloading from various places on the internet...

223 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 10:30:39am

re: #211 lightspeed

The comments lately have become mean-spirited and reactionary

LOL! One word- rayra.

224 Lightspeed  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 10:33:43am

re: #218 Charles

Are you a John Bircher?

Not at all. I have to claim ignorance of them, for the most part. I had a friend in high school who was a member, but he never really talked about it. I always thought of them as a mostly anti-communist organization. In doing a little research (now that you've got me interested), I find that they also believe in a secret plot to unite the world in one-world government (New World Order). This is not so far-fetched any more. There's talk of a global New Deal. Heck, Gordon Brown just used the term "New World Order" in a speech. I don't think there's a secret cabal behind it, however. The people promoting it are pretty upfront and mostly are doing it because they think it is the right thing to do. So, on that score, I think the Birchers are off-base, but in the same sense that liberals are off-base when they start talking about Big Oil, etc. I don't find either belief objectionable, just unsupportable.

Racist far-right conspiracy trash is not welcome.

Agreed. If they are racist, then they can congregate over at Stormfront. I just never thought of them as such. I just thought they were more to the right than I am, and rabidly so. I haven't seen or heard anything about them that is particularly offensive. Maybe I just haven't been exposed to it (I'll admit, I could only listen to a few minutes of the Skousen audio before turning it off). I am not saying you are wrong about them, I just don't know where the animus is coming from.

225 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 10:39:08am

7 IN A ROW? Is that a record?

226 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 10:59:39am

re: #224 Lightspeed

If you don't know much about the John Birch Society, or their history of support for segregation among other ugly extreme right causes (such as this New World Order conspiracy craziness), I suggest you educate yourself before you criticize me for having "animus" toward them.

John Birchers are not welcome here. That's the last time I'm going to say it. If you want to continue this game of "not defending" them, you're not going to be here much longer.

227 Lightspeed  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 11:15:37am

re: #226 Charles

I suggest you educate yourself before you criticize me for having "animus" toward them.

I will. I was not defending them or their views, just wondering what all the fuss was about. You certainly have an animus toward them. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it is justifiable. With a little more research, I may well share that view.

228 Catttt  Thu, Apr 9, 2009 7:18:46pm

re: #224 Lightspeed

I have to claim ignorance

Pic for you - [Link: i200.photobucket.com...]

229 Killian Bundy  Sat, Apr 11, 2009 10:23:30pm

Blue Horseshoe loves DMND.

/your mileage may vary, do your own research, and always stop loss at 7%


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