Neo-Nazi Assassination Plot Update

US News • Views: 3,147

An update on the story of the neo-Nazis who were arrested last October for plotting a crime spree that would have ended with assassinating the president: Cowart’s grandfather testifies in federal court.

The grandfather of Daniel Cowart testified today that when he saw a sawed-off shotgun, duck tape and nylon rope in his upstairs he believed his life might be in danger.

“I almost got sick to my stomach, I was so scared,” Clark Cowart testified in federal court Friday morning. “I thought they really were planning to do it.”

According to testimony given in court yesterday, authorities originally believed Daniel Cowart, 20, of Bells, and 18-year-old Paul Schlesselman of Helena-West Helena, Ark., were planning a possible attempt to rob and kill Clark and Judy Cowart.

Cowart and Schlesselman were later charged with planning a crime spree that would have involved killing 88 people and decapitating 14 blacks. The spree would have ended with an attempt to kill President Barack Obama. They were arrested Oct. 22 and have been held without bond since then.

Cowart and Schlesselman contend that much of the government’s evidence against them should be thrown out because it was obtained illegally, and authorities had no basis to arrest them.

U.S. Dist. Judge J. Daniel Breen is hearing arguments on those claims and will issue a written ruling after the hearing.

Anyone think stories like this might have something to do with the Department of Homeland Security being concerned about right wing extremism?

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454 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:54:37pm
Daniel Cowart had been in contact with skinhead groups, Clark Cowart testified. Both he and his wife had talked to him about that and tried to dissuade Daniel of those beliefs, he said.

Those who bothered to actually read the DHS report will know that Skinheads were specifically mentioned.

2 big steve  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:55:09pm

At what point does one unfortunately have to "own" something? I hear all the time about ghetto crime and how people are always expecting minorities to some how feel embarrassed as to what their "group" has done. Does this work in reverse for us white males? I am beginning to think so because stories such as the above actually make me feel viscerally embarrassed for white males in general.

3 arielle  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:55:43pm

I thought this was an interesting and different take on what is considered "right wing" and "left wing". As a granddaughter of holocaust survivors, I never want to be associated with these neo-nazi thugs

[Link: www.wimp.com...]

4 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:55:44pm

re: #1 Killgore Trout

Those who bothered to actually read the DHS report will know that Skinheads were specifically mentioned.

Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists."

5 yochanan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:56:53pm

frankly it is all who is looking at the Intel, If it is a honest professional police officer or agent I have no problem with it. BUT WHAT IF IT IS A LEFT WING HACK WHO WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO USE THE INTEL AGAINST LEGAL CONSERVATIVE OPPOSITION. ?

6 yochanan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:57:48pm

we all should remember when the clintons got FBI REPORTS on republicans.

7 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:57:53pm

re: #4 Charles

Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists."

No doubt.

And Francisco Franco was a "leftist." /

8 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:58:04pm

Anyone think stories like this might have something to do with the Department of Homeland Security being concerned about right wing extremism?

Yes, I think so too.
And there was a DHS "Left Wing Extremist Report" also.
It was not leaked.

Discuss.........

9 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:00:42pm

The Paranoid Style in American Politics

Richard J. Hofstadter


...The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms — he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization... he does not see social conflict as something to be mediated and compromised, in the manner of the working politician. Since what is at stake is always a conflict between absolute good and absolute evil, what is necessary is not compromise but the will to fight things out to a finish. Since the enemy is thought of as being totally evil and totally unappeasable, he must be totally eliminated — if not from the world, at least from the theatre of operations to which the paranoid directs his attention. This demand for total triumph leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals, and since these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure constantly heightens the paranoid’s sense of frustration. Even partial success leaves him with the same feeling of powerlessness with which he began, and this in turn only strengthens his awareness of the vast and terrifying quality of the enemy he opposes...
10 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:00:57pm

re: #6 yochanan

we all should remember when the clintons got FBI REPORTS on republicans.

Much like that fat fuck, cross dressing head of the FBI. I forget his name////

11 big steve  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:01:08pm

re: #8 IslandLibertarian


And there was a DHS "Left Wing Extremist Report" also.
It was not leaked.

Discuss.........


What evidence do you have for this?

12 loup-garou  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:01:08pm

"but..but...but.. there national Socialists...so there left wing right ? "

there stormfront moon bats. there no better then Islamic militants.

all they want from the gift of Liberty and Freedom to arrest and kill who they like. that's it.

13 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:02:06pm

re: #10 Erik The Red

Much like that fat fuck, cross dressing head of the FBI. I forget his name////

You mean the one named after a vacuum cleaner?

14 BenghaziHoops  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:02:36pm

re: #13 Dustyvet

You mean the one named after a vacuum cleaner?

Hey..he really sucked

15 Truck Monkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:02:42pm

re: #13 Dustyvet

You mean the one named after a vacuum cleaner?

J. Rodham Hoover?

16 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:02:44pm

re: #8 IslandLibertarian

What? Is there something wrong?

17 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:02:47pm

re: #13 Dustyvet

You mean the one named after a vacuum cleaner?

Red Devil?

18 callahan23  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:04:07pm

re: #15 Truck Monkey

J. Rodham Hoover?

Oh, there you spilled the beans. //

19 loup-garou  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:04:22pm

The DHS report on "Left Wing Extremist Report" said there more set up for Cyber-terror. any accident with china's ghost net operations ? i don.t think so.

20 jdog29  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:04:31pm

I say send 'em to Gitmo.

21 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:04:35pm

re: #15 Truck Monkey

J. Rodham Hoover? I thought it was J. Edgar Hoover.

22 Truck Monkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:05:24pm

re: #21 davinvalkri

J. Rodham Hoover? I thought it was J. Edgar Hoover.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
/

23 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:05:42pm

re: #11 big steve

What evidence do you have for this?

Right here.

24 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:05:54pm

we're seeing exactly what has taken place in Europe - the progressives in Europe brought "hope and change" which included a move towards more representation for MORE people, they reached out to immigrants and sought a more level playying field for ALL people - nomatter of ethnicity and such but then the euro neo-nazis and fascists and whitesupremacists tried to rise up to stop the movement of equality.

so now, in America, we have a President who is trying to end hundreds of years of racial strife, he's making a real try to change it so all Americans can live well and because he's being bold about it, the american neo-nazis and whitesupremacists of the Conservative side are coming out of the wood work - not just the plotters but we've seen it right here, the Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees - all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life

25 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:06:04pm

re: #11 big steve

It's in the previous thread.

26 Abu Al-Poopypants  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:06:16pm

re: #7 Gus 802

No doubt.

And Francisco Franco was a "leftist." /

And he's still dead.

27 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:06:24pm

re: #21 davinvalkri

J. Rodham Hoover? I thought it was J. Edgar Hoover.

Now you have done it. Lock your doors and turn off the lights.

28 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:06:44pm

re: #8 IslandLibertarian

Anyone think stories like this might have something to do with the Department of Homeland Security being concerned about right wing extremism?

Yes, I think so too.
And there was a DHS "Left Wing Extremist Report" also.
It was not leaked.

Discuss.........

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

29 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:07:20pm

re: #27 Erik The Red

Now you have done it. Lock your doors and turn off the lights.

And don't answer the phone...:)

30 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:07:24pm

re: #22 Truck Monkey

re: #27 Erik The Red

Wha'd I do wrong?

31 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:07:25pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

- all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life


Huh? Are you out of your mind?

32 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:07:34pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

we're seeing exactly what has taken place in Europe - the progressives in Europe brought "hope and change" which included a move towards more representation for MORE people, they reached out to immigrants and sought a more level playying field for ALL people - nomatter of ethnicity and such but then the euro neo-nazis and fascists and whitesupremacists tried to rise up to stop the movement of equality.

so now, in America, we have a President who is trying to end hundreds of years of racial strife, he's making a real try to change it so all Americans can live well and because he's being bold about it, the american neo-nazis and whitesupremacists of the Conservative side are coming out of the wood work - not just the plotters but we've seen it right here, the Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees - all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Garafolo is that you?

33 loudguitars  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:07:49pm

Charles, you don't have to keep bombarding us with justification for your stance on the DHS memo! We respect your opinion.
All fair people know that there are nuts and dangerous people on all sides of the political spectrum. What is disgusting about the DHS memo is that it was released just prior to the largest PEACEFUL demonstration of conservative principles ie: (Tea Parties) in modern history. It was clearly timed to give the media talking points to diminish the relevance of the tea parties and give the impression that "evil elements" were possibly behind the movement. Imagine the press coverage if the Bush administration had issued a report on the Black Panthers or CAIR etc. before the "Million Man March" or a report on ELF or ALF before a global warming demonstration! I am just "hopefully looking" for some fairness here. I don't agree with a lot of your opinions on issues, but like and read your blog. I do feel that you have fantastic taste in music and love the Tommy Emmanuel, Andy Timmons and Michael Brecker posts!

34 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:07:55pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

we're seeing exactly what has taken place in Europe - the progressives in Europe brought "hope and change" which included a move towards more representation for MORE people, they reached out to immigrants and sought a more level playying field for ALL people - nomatter of ethnicity and such but then the euro neo-nazis and fascists and whitesupremacists tried to rise up to stop the movement of equality.

so now, in America, we have a President who is trying to end hundreds of years of racial strife, he's making a real try to change it so all Americans can live well and because he's being bold about it, the american neo-nazis and whitesupremacists of the Conservative side are coming out of the wood work - not just the plotters but we've seen it right here, the Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees - all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life


FUCK YOU.

35 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:08:22pm

re: #32 Oh no...Sand People!

If it was intended to be funny it missed the mark.

36 Truck Monkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:08:26pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

WTF? The Obamessiah is going to end 100's of years of racial strife?

37 Cathypop  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:08:41pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

Go play somewhere else.

38 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:09:05pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

Whoa whoa whoa wait what?!
I don't think the guys you mentioned are "all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life"...
So ...wha?

39 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:09:17pm

re: #30 davinvalkri

re: #27 Erik The Red

Wha'd I do wrong?

You will see. Be scared, very scared.

40 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:09:36pm

re: #34 MandyManners

Look at its profile.....

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it"
41 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:09:39pm

re: #33 loudguitars

What is disgusting about the DHS memo is that it was released just prior to the largest PEACEFUL demonstration of conservative principles ie: (Tea Parties) in modern history. It was clearly timed to give the media talking points to diminish the relevance of the tea parties and give the impression that "evil elements" were possibly behind the movement.

The report was not released to the public or to the media. It was intended for law enforcement only, and it was marked "For Official Use Only."

This has to be the hundredth time I've had to post this.

42 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:09:48pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

If it was intended to be funny it missed the mark.

Comparing him with the chick that called ALL the attendees of the teaparties racists is off the mark?

No way.

43 The Shadow Do  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:10:24pm

Who knew Righty was so sensitive and thin skinned? I am astonished how easily Righty has been all spun up by its media over this pretty innocuous report.
/and I are one

44 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:10:43pm
45 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:11:45pm

re: #34 MandyManners

FUCK YOU.

Could not be said better myself. What is more offensive is the craven idiocy, it's almost an insult to have to listen to this asshole.

Glock.... you're spouting leftist rhetoric. Can you back any of it up?

46 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:11:49pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

Actually- I do see a lot of similarities to what's been going on in europe, with moderates getting smeared by the extremes from the left and right, and fascists trying to mainstream themselves. Meanwhile, because people are so up in arms, they're marginalizing themselves by thinking this report is talking about them. "Well- if they're going to call me an extremists, I might as well embrace it". This is madness, and the same sort of thinking the euro-fascists promote. Count me out.

47 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:11:50pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Look at its profile.....

And,..?

48 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:11:53pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

Your avatar screams "I'm not impotent."
Your ideas are flawed.
I think your just jivin' us.

49 loudguitars  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:12:03pm

re: #41 Charles

The report was not released to the public or to the media. It was intended for law enforcement only, and it was marked "For Official Use Only."

This has to be the hundredth time I've had to post this.

And it was leaked by whom? You think it was an accident that it was released. You are not that naive? There was no political motive behind the release?

50 Truck Monkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:12:24pm

re: #30 davinvalkri

re: #27 Erik The Red

Wha'd I do wrong?

Slowly. Back. Away. From. Your. Computer.

51 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:12:35pm

Indy Long Beach about to start. Sure are lost and lots of tankers entering the harbor!

52 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:12:35pm

re: #34 MandyManners

FUCK YOU.

Only 2M can say it so eloquently.

53 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:00pm

re: #39 Erik The Red

re: #50 Truck Monkey

Oh come on, you're all sounding paranoid. What do I need to worry about?

54 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:21pm

re: #49 loudguitars

And it was leaked by whom? You think it was an accident that it was released. You are not that naive? There was no political motive behind the release?

Well, one indicator of the intentions of whoever leaked it is that it first showed up at prisonplanet.com, Alex Jones' site.

55 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:24pm

re: #49 loudguitars

Why are you playing to the political game then? You play to their hand.

56 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:25pm

re: #49 loudguitars

And it was leaked by whom? You think it was an accident that it was released. You are not that naive? There was no political motive behind the release?

IIRC, it was leaked to Alex Jones.

57 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:26pm

re: #34 MandyManners

name one of those people that you highlighted there that hasn't threatened to destroy this country either by furthering creationism in public schools or attacked Obama with "socialist" innuendos or stoood up for Fox news and their support of the devisive tea parties.

58 Idle Drifter  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:28pm

re: #4 Charles

Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists."

I think most people fail to understand that these extremist groups and individuals often label themselves as Left or Right. Ask an Anarchist his political leanings he'll say left. Ask a Skinhead he'll say right. It's more akin to drawing a line in the sand to determine friend or foe. Those of us who refuse to be part of these extreme groups won't be so much labeled "Centrists" as declared targets.

59 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:40pm

re: #16 davinvalkri

What? Is there something wrong?


With what?
Maybe your misspelling of "Valkrie"..........

60 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:48pm

re: #41 Charles

Charles, do you know who leaked it?

61 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:50pm

re: #8 IslandLibertarian

Anyone think stories like this might have something to do with the Department of Homeland Security being concerned about right wing extremism?

Yes, I think so too.
And there was a DHS "Left Wing Extremist Report" also.
It was not leaked.

Discuss.........

If it wasn't leaked, how do you know about it?

62 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:57pm
63 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:13:58pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

we're seeing exactly what has taken place in Europe - the progressives in Europe brought "hope and change" which included a move towards more representation for MORE people, they reached out to immigrants and sought a more level playying field for ALL people - nomatter of ethnicity and such but then the euro neo-nazis and fascists and whitesupremacists tried to rise up to stop the movement of equality.

so now, in America, we have a President who is trying to end hundreds of years of racial strife, he's making a real try to change it so all Americans can live well and because he's being bold about it, the american neo-nazis and whitesupremacists of the Conservative side are coming out of the wood work - not just the plotters but we've seen it right here, the Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees - all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life

What the Fuck is wrong with you, if you hate conservatives so much, why are you here?
You do nothing but insult us, you spew liberal loony talking points and kooky theories.

64 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:14:11pm

"Duck tape." LOL. For when the dove tape is just not gonna cut it.

65 Truck Monkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:14:25pm

Can we all get a reset button? When can we start talking about the Muslims again?

/

66 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:14:35pm

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Huh? Are you out of your mind?

He sounds to me like he's out of your mind.

67 lifeofthemind  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:14:36pm

Ignore is a powerful weapon.
Ignore the Ignoranamous.

68 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:14:53pm

re: #33 loudguitars

Charles, are these all coming from the same place, or what? This is a pretty specific, well-repeated strain of comment.

69 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:15:11pm

re: #63 DEZes

What the Fuck is wrong with you, if you hate conservatives so much, why are you here?
You do nothing but insult us, you spew liberal loony talking points and kooky theories.

Left wing extremist.

70 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:15:13pm

The report was not released to the public or to the media. It was intended for law enforcement only, and it was marked "For Official Use Only."

so...we're all "Officials"?
Who leaked it?

71 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:15:22pm

re: #60 BigPapa

Charles, do you know who leaked it?

Of course not. I have it on good authority that the DHS is investigating that, though.

72 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:15:24pm

re: #59 IslandLibertarian

That misspelling of "valkyrie" is intentional. I'm just wondering why you're starting to sound like some of the crazies that Charles has had to hit with the ban stick. Yeah, I remember the cyberterror report, but whether or not it was leaked has nothiong to do with what's going on now.

73 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:15:28pm

re: #53 davinvalkri

re: #50 Truck Monkey

Oh come on, you're all sounding paranoid. What do I need to worry about?

They are coming to take you away ahaha

74 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:15:59pm

re: #57 GlockNspell

name one of those people that you highlighted there that hasn't threatened to destroy this country either by furthering creationism in public schools or attacked Obama with "socialist" innuendos or stoood up for Fox news and their support of the devisive tea parties.

Look, you stupid motherfucker. The men you listed want to stop gouging taxpayers. What's wrong with that?

As far as attacking FCBBHO for being a socialist, HE IS!

75 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:16:20pm

re: #24 GlockNspell


Man, I can't tell if you're coming or going with this one.

76 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:16:23pm
77 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:16:45pm

re: #71 Charles

Of course not. I have it on good authority that the DHS is investigating that, though.

The only 'good authority' I will believe is if Zombie is investigating.

Zombie, update?
//

78 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:17:03pm

Alex Jones ? The Truther, anti-semite ?
WTF ?

79 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:17:53pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

You cast a wide net: Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees. You allude that these people are racists?

80 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:18:26pm

re: #7 Gus 802

No doubt.

And Francisco Franco was a "leftist." /

He's dead, though. Isn't he?

81 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:18:43pm

re: #79 Gus 802

You cast a wide net: Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees. You allude that these people are racists?

Throw enough shit against a wall ,, some of it is bound to stick!

82 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:18:50pm

re: #80 SixDegrees

He's dead, though. Isn't he?

Yep.

83 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:06pm

re: #4 Charles

Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists."

The present common version of the right-left political spectrum needs to be revised.

I think of Neonazis as part of the "collectivist problem". I also think they wouldn't be so enthusiastic about Nazism if they had to see it from the victim's point of view. Unfortunately, no one makes Zyklon-B anymore.

84 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #80 SixDegrees

He's STILL dead, though. Isn't he?

//Chevy Chace mode off

85 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:12pm

re: #80 SixDegrees

"He's dead, though. Isn't he?

I think he's asking for a recount on that.

86 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:17pm

re: #57 GlockNspell

name one of those people that you highlighted there that hasn't threatened to destroy this country either by furthering creationism in public schools or attacked Obama with "socialist" innuendos or stoood up for Fox news and their support of the devisive tea parties.

As opposed to breaking out my chainsaw I will only focus on this one point:

"Devisive"... interesting how it's only divisive when I don't see things a liberals way.

87 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:19pm

Chase , even !

88 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:35pm

re: #73 Erik The Red

They are coming to take you away ahaha

Youtube Video
89 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:39pm

re: #81 sattv4u2

Throw enough shit against a wall ,, some of it is bound to stick!

Yeah, a lot of it has pretty much stuck. Call it the "Village Voice" school of logic.

90 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:52pm

re: #46 Sharmuta

Actually- I do see a lot of similarities to what's been going on in europe, with moderates getting smeared by the extremes from the left and right, and fascists trying to mainstream themselves. Meanwhile, because people are so up in arms, they're marginalizing themselves by thinking this report is talking about them. "Well- if they're going to call me an extremists, I might as well embrace it". This is madness, and the same sort of thinking the euro-fascists promote. Count me out.


well, i agree with some of that but the main point is there is NO centrist candidates coming out of the conservative side politically - not a single one will divorce thmeselves from the evangelical madness - not a one will abandon the archaeic denial of rights for immigrants and gays,and so we end up with NO choice in the middle - where is a single conservative candidate that is willing to stand up for progressive social issues? the majority of america is against the religious right, premeditated wars , etc but not a single entry from conservatives will even consider standing strong in the middle and willing to compromise

91 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:20:00pm

re: #74 MandyManners

Look, you stupid motherfucker. The men you listed want to stop gouging taxpayers. What's wrong with that?

As far as attacking FCBBHO for being a socialist, HE IS!

I think Obama's a Marxist, but I totally agree GlockNspell is a stupid motherfucker. ;)

92 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:20:14pm

re: #89 Gus 802

Yeah, a lot of it has pretty much stuck. Call it the "Village Voice IDIOT" school of logic.


FTFY

93 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:20:41pm

re: #73 Erik The Red

They are coming to take you away ahaha

I'm not crazy. What are you talking about?

94 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:20:49pm

re: #49 loudguitars

And it was leaked by whom? You think it was an accident that it was released. You are not that naive? There was no political motive behind the release?

Given that it was leaked to right-wing nutter Alex Jones, I'd lean toward there being a political component behind the leak.

Probably not the one you were hoping for, but still...

95 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:20:51pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

the Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees - all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life

You forgot to mention the Zionists and the neocons.

96 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:21:01pm

Alex Jones would have a vested interest in releasing it and encouraging the resultant (over reactive) outrage. Short term, benefits him.

Long term, does not. It merely creates more marginalization and clouds real core issues out with the pink noise of the outrage.

97 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:21:11pm
98 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:21:45pm

re: #88 Dustyvet

That song was in my head. To lazy to find the link, Thank you.

99 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:22:13pm

re: #57 GlockNspell

name one of those people that you highlighted there that hasn't threatened to destroy this country either by furthering creationism in public schools or attacked Obama with "socialist" innuendos or stoood up for Fox news and their support of the devisive tea parties.

Why are you mixing in creationism with the fight against the confiscatory tax poliicies that FCBBHO wants to impose? Apples and oranges. No, apples and asparagus. No, apples and aardvarks.

I'm gonna' stop here before I rip you a new one. I refuse to waste my time on someone as ignorant as you.

100 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:22:23pm

re: #57 GlockNspell

"socialist" innuendos

Innuendo? "0" (pronounced zero) is a Socialist.
And by your remarks, I now label you "twit".
Now, just 'cause I say it, is it so?

101 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:22:37pm

re: #98 Erik The Red

That song was in my head. To lazy to find the link, Thank you.

Welcome, I went hunting for the original...didn't find it...

102 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:22:50pm

re: #95 Alouette

You forgot to mention the Zionists and the neocons.

Zombies and bodysnatchers.

103 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:22:56pm

re: #80 SixDegrees

He's dead, though. Isn't he?

re: #80 SixDegrees

He's dead, though. Isn't he?

* * * * *
Generalisimo Franco first turned back the Stalinist red tide that Soviets & leftists deployed against normal Spaniards like my relatives who practiced bourgeous things like their own religion, right to work for themselves, create jobs, enjoy their freedom from communist takeover.

104 yochanan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:23:12pm

re: #34 MandyManners

mandy tell us how you really feel

lol

105 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:23:20pm

re: #93 davinvalkri

I'm not crazy. What are you talking about?

Just fucking with you. Sorry if it went over your head.

106 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:23:30pm

re: #90 GlockNspell

well, i agree with some of that but the main point is there is NO centrist candidates coming out of the conservative side politically - not a single one will divorce thmeselves from the evangelical madness - not a one will abandon the archaeic denial of rights for immigrants and gays,and so we end up with NO choice in the middle - where is a single conservative candidate that is willing to stand up for progressive social issues? the majority of america is against the religious right, premeditated wars , etc but not a single entry from conservatives will even consider standing strong in the middle and willing to compromise

Good lawdy man. We are all for the rights of immigrants! LEGAL IMMIGRANTS!
Come to America qualified and with something to offer and through the front door? PLEASE I would offer you a home and place to stay till you get on your feet!

Even 'gays' are starting to chip away at the laws and make headway.

107 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:23:34pm

re: #100 IslandLibertarian

"socialist" innuendos

Innuendo? "0" (pronounced zero) is a Socialist.
And by your remarks, I now label you "twit".
Now, just 'cause I say it, is it so?

A Twit thread.

108 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:23:48pm

re: #4 Charles

Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists."

Why, Charles, didn't you know that Nazis are actually the biggest leftists of all? They're for national socialism, after all...

Look into my eyes. Everything is going to be fine.

109 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:23:49pm

re: #90 GlockNspell

well, i agree with some of that but the main point is there is NO centrist candidates coming out of the conservative side politically - not a single one will divorce thmeselves from the evangelical madness - not a one will abandon the archaeic denial of rights for immigrants and gays,and so we end up with NO choice in the middle - where is a single conservative candidate that is willing to stand up for progressive social issues? the majority of america is against the religious right, premeditated wars , etc but not a single entry from conservatives will even consider standing strong in the middle and willing to compromise

No rights for immigrants? Stop with the lies. No one wants to deny LEGAL immigrants equal rights.

110 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:23:57pm

re: #103 alegrias

* * * * *
Generalisimo Franco first turned back the Stalinist red tide that Soviets & leftists deployed against normal Spaniards like my relatives who practiced bourgeous things like their own religion, right to work for themselves, create jobs, enjoy their freedom from communist takeover.

Uh, wait, are we talking about the same Franco that had Guernica bombed to the ground by German Stukas?

111 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:24:11pm

re: #99 MandyManners

Why are you mixing in creationism with the fight against the confiscatory tax poliicies that FCBBHO wants to impose? Apples and oranges. No, apples and asparagus. No, apples and aardvarks.

I'm gonna' stop here before I rip you a new one. I refuse to waste my time on someone as ignorant as you.

That's right! If MM wanted to rip on ignorant people, she could start with me!

112 pink freud  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:24:32pm

re: #90 GlockNspell

well, i agree with some of that but the main point is there is NO centrist candidates coming out of the conservative side politically - not a single one will divorce thmeselves from the evangelical madness - not a one will abandon the archaeic denial of rights for immigrants and gays,and so we end up with NO choice in the middle - where is a single conservative candidate that is willing to stand up for progressive social issues? the majority of america is against the religious right, premeditated wars , etc but not a single entry from conservatives will even consider standing strong in the middle and willing to compromise

I'll only wade in far enough to point out that you assert that condoning the breaking the laws of this country somehow falls under "progressive social issues."

113 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:24:42pm

re: #63 DEZes

What the Fuck is wrong with you, if you hate conservatives so much, why are you here?
You do nothing but insult us, you spew liberal loony talking points and kooky theories.

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

114 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:24:53pm

re: #90 GlockNspell

yeah, your in the middle & I'm batman...

115 lifeofthemind  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:25:22pm

re: #83 The Other Les

The present common version of the right-left political spectrum needs to be revised.

I think of Neonazis as part of the "collectivist problem". I also think they wouldn't be so enthusiastic about Nazism if they had to see it from the victim's point of view. Unfortunately, no one makes Zyklon-B anymore.

From the wiki page:

Zyklon B is still in production in the Czech Republic in the factory Draslovka Kolín a.s. in the city Kolín under the tradename Uragan D2, sold for eradicating insects and small animals.[1]
116 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:25:44pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

Hell no. You are paying for it with my tax money...

117 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:09pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING COMMIE SONOFABITCH.

118 Catttt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:10pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

Hyperbole R-U.

119 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:21pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

Don't think. Your head my explode.

120 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:32pm

BBIAB

121 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:35pm

When we discovered the euro-fascists, all sorts of excuses were made. I can't help but see similar excuses being made now. Mostly people worked up concerning the use of "right-wing extremists". But that's what they are. So, if I can't use the term "right-wing extremist" what should I call them?

122 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:35pm

I'm just sayin'

123 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:39pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.


You have a wider brush in that paint can of yours?

124 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:09pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

You better go buy LOTS of bread!

125 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:27pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Look at its profile.....

It's from the Declaration of Independence.

126 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:34pm

re: #115 lifeofthemind

The fucking stupidity never fucking stops!

127 callahan23  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:36pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

we're seeing exactly what has taken place in Europe - the progressives in Europe brought "hope and change" which included a move towards more representation for MORE people, they reached out to immigrants and sought a more level playying field for ALL people - nomatter of ethnicity and such but then the euro neo-nazis and fascists and whitesupremacists tried to rise up to stop the movement of equality.


HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA, don't tell me, I live in Europe and work in teaching immigrants in the field of integration. There was never a real policy of integrating the immigrants in much of the 'old' EU, so this 'level playing field' you are fantasizing about was never a planned thing in the first place.
Only when 9/11 occurred and the populace and the politicians saw into which mess they've driven their cart in they hectically tried to remedy with measures such as the one I am currently work.
Don't give me your crap of 'enlightened level playing fields' and Europe being all better than the US. Or better yet STFU.
/rant off vents open kkssszzz

128 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:38pm

re: #103 alegrias

* * * * *
Generalisimo Franco first turned back the Stalinist red tide that Soviets & leftists deployed against normal Spaniards like my relatives who practiced bourgeous things like their own religion, right to work for themselves, create jobs, enjoy their freedom from communist takeover.

Yup, I know who he was. My comment was a slight variant of an old Chevy Chase SNL skit.

If I knew were Franco was buried, I'd consider mailing an occasional jar of urine to a local who would dump it on his grave for me.

But I mostly save it for use on Coleman Young's tomb.

129 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:42pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

Hey dumbf**k!

Being morally and legally reduced to the status of domestic animal and being used for the benefit of a parasite ruling class is NOT a positive thing.

It is an abomination.

130 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:57pm

re: #90 GlockNspell

well, i agree with some of that but the main point is there is NO centrist candidates coming out of the conservative side politically - not a single one will divorce thmeselves from the evangelical madness - not a one will abandon the archaeic denial of rights for immigrants and gays,and so we end up with NO choice in the middle - where is a single conservative candidate that is willing to stand up for progressive social issues? the majority of america is against the religious right, premeditated wars , etc but not a single entry from conservatives will even consider standing strong in the middle and willing to compromise

I don't know if this is some kind of Truffer statement, or you're living in a fantasy land where it's all right to ignore broken UN sanctions while the UN sat on their ass and killed innocent folks.

131 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:27:57pm
132 Shay4l  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:28:28pm

Oh, sure! Conservatives are followers, not the collectivists!

Moron.

133 Mich-again  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:28:42pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

so now, in America, we have a President who is trying to end hundreds of years of racial strife, he's making a real try to change it so all Americans can live well and because he's being bold about it, the american neo-nazis and whitesupremacists of the Conservative side are coming out of the wood work

...we've seen it right here, the Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees - all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life

Thats some serious bullshit right there Moby wan Kenobi. You are an idiot for trying to lump together the neo-Nazis with any of those other names.

134 BenghaziHoops  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:29:02pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

You pathetic little man...

135 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:29:15pm

I'm glad they're arrested. Two teens planning the boy's family member first ... with some chat room fantasy of going on some sort of 21st century Bonnie and Clyde skinhead version killing spree, to end (somehow, someway) in the vicinity of Barack Obama. Not exactly evidence of some huge groundswell of right-wing terror activity, however.

If this is the best evidence the DHS has of an uptick in violent right-wing behavior then I respectfully suggest they get their eyes back on the real terrorists and stop the hyperventilating - particularly when this B.S. gets released written in just such a way, to coincide with just such an event, in order that all right-thinking (scan "Left" "Progressive" "Elite") can sneer at the Tea Parties ... knowing that they can always say "This was never, you know, actually meant to be released." Sure. If these reports aren't for the general public, then remind me again how we got the left wing extremist copy so that we could compare and contrast the two ... generally unfavorably, I might add.

NB -- with respect to these two nut-cases, note that the DHS nor the federal government actually busted up this "assassination" plan if it could be even called an assassination plan with a straight face). They were arrested by the Sheriff after they wrote swastikas and racial epithet's on the car belonging to the boy's grandfather. They deserve to go to jail for a long time. They are stupid and beneath contempt. But they are not the leading edge of a resurgence in violent nazi-like extremism. Anyone else pushing this sort of tripe would be accused of "fear mongering".

136 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:29:26pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

Who here agrees with you, name one person.
A lot of us agree with Charles, he posts reasoned and well thought out points that he backs up with things called facts.
You, No ones impressed!

137 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:29:29pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

That tirade is breathtaking. Obama represents the forces of light & all who oppose him represent darkness?

138 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:29:31pm

re: #108 Cato the Elder

Why, Charles, didn't you know that Nazis are actually the biggest leftists of all? They're for national socialism, after all...

Look into my eyes. Everything is going to be fine.

Erm... It's true that Nazis and Communists don't get along, but isn't that because they are a threat to each others' power? Ideologically, they aren't that far apart-- even though they self-identify themselves as Right and Left respectively.

139 Athens Runaway  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:29:53pm

These are the Colorado skinheads in the top hats, right?

140 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:29:58pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

When we discovered the euro-fascists, all sorts of excuses were made. I can't help but see similar excuses being made now. Mostly people worked up concerning the use of "right-wing extremists". But that's what they are. So, if I can't use the term "right-wing extremist" what should I call them?

Dickheads?

141 callahan23  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:30:01pm

re: #131 taxfreekiller

This Glocknspell, just like the Earth First ones I've been in meetings with,
this is the result of the msm, John F.Kerry, Jane Fonda, Nancy Pelosi loon lie machine, one of millions of true believers of shit like Al Gores bull shit, or this Chicago commie thugs line of bull crap. They do believe this crap, and they will hurt you if they get a chance. It will be something in the back,
cut tires, then other silly as coward crap.

I also know them personally, vicious critters.

142 quickjustice  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:30:08pm

The U.S. Secret Service has primary jurisdiction in investigations of threats to presidential candidates. They're now part of Homeland Security. FBI also might have a secondary role, depending upon the case.

I don't doubt that extremists are real. I still think the DHS report was sloppy, and that its timing suggests that it was rushed out the door in response to the Tea Parties.

The N.Y. Times ran a half-page Op-Ed yesterday counting the total number of veterans specifically identified as members of extremist organizations. The came to a couple of hundred, out of millions of veterans. While the number wasn't zero, we must examine it in the context of the threats the report described. Was McVeigh a terrorist murderer BECAUSE of his military service? Or it it more likely that the "terrorist murderer" part had little or nothing to do with his training and indoctrination by the U.S. Armed Forces?

143 lifeofthemind  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:30:26pm

Everyone who has fed a troll should feel real real sorry.

144 The Shadow Do  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:03pm

GlockNGordon?

145 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:05pm

re: #72 davinvalkri

Because I'm angered by the immediate condemnation of Tea Parties as "racist-right wing extremist-Fox News Sponsored-big business-astro-turf events, a White House cabal that attacked Limbaugh (whom I really don't care for) as the LEADER of the Republican Party and the leaking of the DHS RWE report.
I KNOW there are RWE (right wing extremists), no argument there.
And I also know a snow job when I see one.

146 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:23pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

Once upon a time, we had some posters here who argued that all Muslims were terrorists.
They're gone now.

Now we have you who argues that "conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives."

See the similarity?

147 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:35pm

re: #127 callahan23

HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA, don't tell me, I live in Europe and work in teaching immigrants in the field of integration. There was never a real policy of integrating the immigrants in much of the 'old' EU, so this 'level playing field' you are fantasizing about was never a planned thing in the first place.
Only when 9/11 occurred and the populace and the politicians saw into which mess they've driven their cart in they hectically tried to remedy with measures such as the one I am currently work.
Don't give me your crap of 'enlightened level playing fields' and Europe being all bette r than the US. Or better yet STFU.
/rant off vents open kkssszzz

I hope you get as many updings for this comment as did he downdings

148 SpaceJesus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:51pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

When we discovered the euro-fascists, all sorts of excuses were made. I can't help but see similar excuses being made now. Mostly people worked up concerning the use of "right-wing extremists". But that's what they are. So, if I can't use the term "right-wing extremist" what should I call them?

you don't get it. we need to sacrifice our better judgment and ideals in order to form a coalition with ron paulians and racists in order to defeat the secret muslim infiltrator.

149 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:55pm

re: #110 davinvalkri

Uh, wait, are we talking about the same Franco that had Guernica bombed to the ground by German Stukas?

* * * *
Do you defend the people that shelled & destroyed my grandparents' house?

The Spanish CIVIL War had two sides with millions on each side. Do you defend the murder of employers, workers, nuns & priests, outlawing of religious beliefs, and destruction of churches and confiscation of private property by the Spanish Communists and Stalinists?

Yes, that's the same Franco that let Roosevelt and the US build military bases all over Spain.

150 freetoken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:32:34pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

[...] the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives.

1. many;
2. many;
3. most;
4. only those pre-inclined to do so.

There are a number of writers and bloggers who are striving to define "conservativism" for the 21st century, who are not going along with the Bircher bleed-through. However, they are not the type that get pushed by, say, Clear Channel to put on their multitude of radio programs.

You're painting with a pretty broad brush. Rudy tried to be a "centrist" in the last election - it got him nowhere, but there is an example of someone who tried.

151 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:32:51pm

re: #41 Charles

The report was not released to the public or to the media. It was intended for law enforcement only, and it was marked "For Official Use Only."

This has to be the hundredth time I've had to post this.

If history has taught us anything it is that a state of tyranny is only as durable as the willingness of the enforcers to follow orders. And it is easier for the enforcers to follow those orders if the victims are presented as something less than proper citizens or worse, something less than human.

152 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:33:07pm

re: #146 MJ

Once upon a time, we had some posters here who argued that all Muslims were terrorists.
They're gone now.

Now we have you who argues that "conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives."

See the similarity?

The first guys were right and this guy is an asshole?
***sarc everybody! sarc!

153 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:33:25pm

re: #149 alegrias

* * * *
Do you defend the people that shelled & destroyed my grandparents' house?

The Spanish CIVIL War had two sides with millions on each side. Do you defend the murder of employers, workers, nuns & priests, outlawing of religious beliefs, and destruction of churches and confiscation of private property by the Spanish Communists and Stalinists?

Yes, that's the same Franco that let Roosevelt and the US build military bases all over Spain.

Of course I'm not defending the other guys! I'm just saying your view on Franco seems a bit...light? Slightly one-sided?

154 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:33:26pm

re: #90 GlockNspell

What legal immigrants are being denied rights? You are clearly talking about illegal aliens & why do you presume that they have a right to be here or a right to entitlements?

155 godfrey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:33:31pm

Just for convenience, here are the DHS definitions:

DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis defines leftwing extremists as
groups or individuals who embrace radical elements of the anarchist, animal rights, or environmental movements and are often willing to violate the law to achieve their objectives. Many leftwing extremist groups are not hierarchically ordered with defined members, leaders, or chain of command structures but operate as loosely-connected underground movements composed of “lone wolves,” small cells, and splinter groups.

Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.

It's pretty clear from the two reports that the DHS defines leftwing extremists as non-violent criminals who embrace "radical elements of" various movements -- and rightwing extremists as homogeneously "hate-oriented ... (and/or) antigovernment."

From this language, it appears the DHS docs regard leftwing movements as mostly benign and rightwing movements as mostly violent.

156 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:34:31pm

re: #143 lifeofthemind

Everyone who has fed a troll should feel real real sorry.

Fatten em up. Grill on and ready to go.

157 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:34:32pm

re: #142 quickjustice

I don't doubt that extremists are real. I still think the DHS report was sloppy, and that its timing suggests that it was rushed out the door in response to the Tea Parties.

BIG sigh. The report was not released to the public or the media. It was intended for law enforcement only.

But wouldn't it be ironic if it was released before the tea parties -- in order to give law enforcement a heads-up so that they might be able to better protect the tea party attendees?

Or are we supposed to believe that the DHS is simply evil now?

158 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:34:44pm
Was McVeigh a terrorist murderer BECAUSE of his military service?

The report isn't arguing causality; it's arguing correlation.

159 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:35:01pm
160 callahan23  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:35:03pm

re: #147 Erik The Red

I hope you get as many updings for this comment as did he downdings

Thanks, means a lot to me.
{Catttt, davinvalkri, DEZes, Erik The Red, Gus 802, Mr. In get Mr. Out, pink freud, yochanan}

161 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:35:29pm

re: #140 SixDegrees

It's not the answer to my question so much as the similarity of arguments from previous discussions on the extreme right. It was in the discussions on European right wing extremists that stuff like this was brought to our attention:

You may heard that the Ku Klux Klan staged a march yesterday in Jena, Louisiana—their own little way to celebrate Martin Luther King Day.

Here’s a photo from their march, showing the white power goons with a modified Confederate flag. Remember that symbol we’ve been finding all over the web sites and publications of the Vlaams Belang, and on Filip DeWinter’s own bookshelf—the Odin’s Cross?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I don't think people like Killgore and I are going to accept these nazi wanna-bes aren't an issue, in europe and America.

162 quickjustice  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:35:33pm

re: #149 alegrias

The Spanish Civil War, Franco's Fascists supported by Hitler against Republicans supported by Soviet Russia, cost a million lives in a population of ten million. By any measure, that's a catastrophe.

B/T/W, has the Russian government ever returned the gold supply shipped by the Spanish Republican Government to Soviet Russia for "safekeeping" to Spain?

163 Idle Drifter  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:36:17pm

re: #90 GlockNspell

I'm undecided if you actually believe the crap you're spewing or are just a very convincing troll.

164 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:36:35pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

well, i'm here because there are a lot of people here that will agree with me that the conservatives of america are OUT OF LINE on religious extremism, creationishm, unwarranted attacks on the POTUS, and a shift towards neo-nazism by conservatives. I'll bet you a sandwich that more people agree with me that conservatives have become nothing but foloowers of nuts like Beck and Limbaugh and Fox news.

I've got a sneaking suspicion that were you actually required to defend anything you say using actual facts and a modicum of logic that you'd curl up into a ball and cry like a little girl.

165 Mich-again  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:36:41pm

re: #155 godfrey

Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented

When a leftist extremist sprayed bleach water in the face of a Delegate at the GOP Convention last summer it was a political statment, not a hate crime.

166 Laugh a Lot  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:36:48pm

I don't understand your point with postings like this. What's your point? No reasonable person believes there are no right wing lunatics. Every rational person knows that to be true. Moreover, the more establishment elements of the right, when a lunatic goes berserk, shout the loudest for swift and harsh justice. We have no Mumia Abu Jamals on the right side. We don't lavish attention on right-wing cop killers, publish their "memoirs," and give them talk shows on NPR. We don't push for right-wing domestic terrorists to get tenured faculty positions at the University of Illinois (among other schools) as the left does. There is no right-wing equivalent to the left's ACLU, defending all manner of lunacy and, yes, violence, in the name of civil liberties. The right comes down hard on its lunatic fringe. The left lionizes theirs. The homeland security report simply used too broad a brush. It was a political document from a liberal administration that fears criticism -- the department's own civil rights attorneys said as much. Will your heads explode to admit that? Must you throw up straw men to keep the truth at bay? Really, what's the point?

167 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:36:58pm

re: #155 godfrey

It's pretty clear from the two reports that the DHS defines leftwing extremists as non-violent criminals who embrace "radical elements of" various movements -- and rightwing extremists as homogeneously "hate-oriented ... (and/or) antigovernment."

From this language, it appears the DHS docs regard leftwing movements as mostly benign and rightwing movements as mostly violent.

Absolutely not true. The first page of the report on left wing extremism states:

This assessment examines the potential threat to homeland security from cyber attacks conducted by leftwing extremists, a threat that DHS/I&A believes likely will grow over the next decade. It focuses on the more prominent leftwing groups within the animal rights, environmental, and anarchist extremist movements that promote or have conducted criminal or terrorist activities (see Appendix).

That's hardly depicting them as benign.

168 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:37:04pm

And people wondered before why I thought populism was dangerous.

169 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:37:04pm

re: #148 SpaceJesus

you don't get it. we need to sacrifice our better judgment and ideals in order to form a coalition with ron paulians and racists in order to defeat the secret muslim infiltrator.

Space has found sarcasm.

170 godfrey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:37:37pm

re: #157 Charles

Plus, the leftwing extremist report was "part of a series" that started late in the Bush2 administration. These things have been in the works for a while.

171 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:37:41pm

re: #157 Charles

BIG sigh. The report was not released to the public or the media. It was intended for law enforcement only.

Somebody made it avaialble.
And it is as has been pointed out a hasty 10 pages dated April 7th 2009, referencing events in 2009 .
It hasn't been sitting on a shelf for months. At least not this version.

172 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:38:22pm

Is that an approaching meltdown I smell?

173 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:38:28pm

re: #79 Gus 802

You cast a wide net: Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees. You allude that these people are racists?

The use of the term "racist" as a label for critics is an example of what a former friend and mentor used to call Terror Language. The deliberate misuse of language for the purpose of frightening opponents into silence or submission.

174 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:38:31pm

re: #138 NukeAtomrod

Erm... It's true that Nazis and Communists don't get along, but isn't that because they are a threat to each others' power? Ideologically, they aren't that far apart-- even though they self-identify themselves as Right and Left respectively.

Except for the parts about blood-and-soil, racial supremacy, biological determinism, eugenics, breeding supermen, eliminating "useless eaters" and lebensunwertes Leben, subjugation and wholesale enslavement of "inferior races", Lebensraum for the Herrenvolk, and a little thing known as Judenhass - of course, no difference at all, really.

Wanna buy a bridge?

175 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:38:37pm

re: #125 Wendya

It's a nut.

176 MacDuff  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:39:16pm

re: #148 SpaceJesus

you don't get it. we need to sacrifice our better judgment and ideals in order to form a coalition with ron paulians and racists in order to defeat the secret muslim infiltrator.

That is a joke. Right?

177 freetoken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:39:30pm

re: #169 Erik The Red

Space has found sarcasm.

Sarcasm found Space.

178 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:39:57pm

re: #171 Jimash

Somebody made it available.
And it is as has been pointed out a hasty 10 pages dated April 7th 2009, referencing events in 2009 .
It hasn't been sitting on a shelf for months. At least not this version.

It's a work in progress, as are all ASSESSMENTS of this type, amended on a daily basis dependent on the available NEW intel at any given moment

179 jorline  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:40:01pm

Glocknspell

Hopefully the only access you have to ammo is the pic on your nic.

180 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:40:15pm

re: #173 The Other Les

The use of the term "racist" as a label for critics is an example of what a former friend and mentor used to call Terror Language. The deliberate misuse of language for the purpose of frightening opponents into silence or submission.

Exactly, which has the immediate effect of shutting down any communication and assigning guilt. The proverbial "race card."

181 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:40:27pm

re: #153 davinvalkri

Of course I'm not defending the other guys! I'm just saying your view on Franco seems a bit...light? Slightly one-sided?

* * * * *
I agree with the US policy of turning Spain into a US-aligned country instead of a Soviet Socialist Republic of Spain. If your family had been threatened with death by communists, you might agree.

Spain stopped being a dictatorship nearly 20 years before the Soviet Empire fell apart.

The US was smart to free Spain from that fate.

182 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:40:28pm

re: #90 GlockNspell/em>

not a one will abandon the archaeic denial of rights for immigrants and gays

Care to list some of those "rights" you claim they are being denied?

183 MacDuff  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:40:40pm

re: #163 Idle Drifter

I'm undecided if you actually believe the crap you're spewing or are just a very convincing troll.

Troll.

184 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:41:04pm

re: #179 jorline

Glocknspell

Hopefully the only access you have to ammo is the pic on your nic.

I'm not worried about it's access to amo, as long as he doens't have access to the associated weapon at the same time!@

185 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:41:18pm
186 Kailen  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:41:19pm

And where was the DHS report on left-wing extremism when there were books being written about killing President Bush?

187 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:41:29pm

re: #115 lifeofthemind

Thank you. I was not aware of that.

188 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:41:33pm

re: #172 Charles

Is that an approaching meltdown I smell?

Please just put it out of its misery with dignity.

189 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:41:55pm

re: #157 Charles

If it was released after the Tea Parties conservatives would claim that is was to detract from their overwhelming success. If it was released last month they'd claim it was to distract from the AIG bonuses.
If you question the timing you'll always find a reason. We've all watched the LLL do this you years.

190 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:05pm

Godfrey. Take a time out and go for a walk.

191 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:07pm

re: #175 Killgore Trout

It's a nut.

I understand that but quoting from the Declaration isn't what made him a nutter.

192 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:17pm

re: #99 MandyManners

Why are you mixing in creationism with the fight against the confiscatory tax poliicies that FCBBHO wants to impose? Apples and oranges. No, apples and asparagus. No, apples and aardvarks.

I'm gonna' stop here before I rip you a new one. I refuse to waste my time on someone as ignorant as you.

What is this "FCBBHO" of which you speak? There are something like nine instances on Google.

Something along the lines of Chimpy McHalliburton-Hitler, I'm guessing?

193 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:21pm

re: #186 Kailen

And where was the DHS report on left-wing extremism when there were books being written about killing President Bush?

Exactly where this one still should be ,, CLASSIFIED

194 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:23pm

re: #186 Kailen

It was being written. Then published. The read by those with a need to know.

195 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:50pm

re: #186 Kailen

And where was the DHS report on left-wing extremism when there were books being written about killing President Bush?


It's easy to find if you look.

196 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:53pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

Who let you out of your cage at Dailykos?

197 godfrey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:43:41pm

re: #167 Charles

Charles, you're misreading me. I'm saying the language up there suggests that the big leftish movements of which the bad left guys are a "radical element of" are benign. Of course the report doesn't regard the leftwing criminals as benign -- there'd be no report if they did.

What I'm saying is that the report makes no attempt to say that rightwing crazies are just "radical elements of" larger movements that are themselves benign. No, they're just hateful, antigovernment, etc.

I agree with you that DHS, regardless of who's running it, tries to be fair.

It isn't crazy though to see that these two paragraphs treat their subjects differently.

198 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:43:44pm

re: #196 Alouette

Who let you out of your cage at Dailykos?

Dailykos is missing an idiot.

199 captdiggs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:44:05pm

Still looking forward to the DHS report on Islamic extremism and its propensity to effect "man-caused disasters".

I have no problem with DHS doing a report on the well known risks of neo nazis, skinheads, et al...but they seem to be sticking their head in the sand when it comes to the far greater threat from militant political Islam.

200 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:44:12pm

re: #173 The Other Les

The use of the term "racist" as a label for critics is an example of what a former friend and mentor used to call Terror Language. The deliberate misuse of language for the purpose of frightening opponents into silence or submission.

What about the use of the term "racist" for racists? Like the guy on Facebook I just defriended for calling Obama the NiC?

201 Idle Drifter  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:44:40pm

re: #183 MacDuff

Troll.

I am leaning that way about Glocknspell.

202 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:44:47pm

re: #162 quickjustice

The Spanish Civil War, Franco's Fascists supported by Hitler against Republicans supported by Soviet Russia, cost a million lives in a population of ten million. By any measure, that's a catastrophe.

B/T/W, has the Russian government ever returned the gold supply shipped by the Spanish Republican Government to Soviet Russia for "safekeeping" to Spain?

* * * *
That civil war was a catastrophe that Spaniards are STILL arguing about today, and red-diaper babies such as President Zapatero try to pin on the other side.

Today, Ukrainians, Russians, Romanians work all over Spain as maids, garderners, laborers, anything. They voted with their feet away from socialist countries.

203 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:44:54pm

re: #113 GlockNspell

Make mine pastrami on rye.

204 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:45:27pm

re: #191 Wendya

Conservatives are adopting a lot of revolutionary talk under the guise of patriotism. It's as anti-American as what the LLL has been doing for the past 8 years.

205 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:45:55pm

re: #137 opnion

That tirade is breathtaking. Obama represents the forces of light & all who oppose him represent darkness?

Those who claim to be infallible are always wrong.

From the New Devil's Dictionary:

Nobody: A person who is perfect, infallible, omnipotent, omniscient, or is in any other respect like God.

206 BingoBunny  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:45:55pm

We've seen Senators contract with terrorist groups to blow up ammo trains in their state to protest the war in Vietnam.. Udall in Arizona.. Homeland security have a group looking into senators?
we've seen thousands of new homes under construction burned by tree huggers.. any place you care to look.. Homeland security having a look at tree huggers?
University professors with as much bomb making time as study hall time.. any higher learning on Homeland Securities watch list?
How many of the peaceful Black Muslim Mosques have armed youth groups training in America.. they went to million man march in uniform.. and the news story from the tea parties was that it wasn't a place to take children.. didn't hear that when uniformed black teens gathered for LLL media supported events. Homeland security investigating why kids who should be in cub scouts are learning to fight the white Devils instead?
How about environmental groups that want to invade nuclear power plants or even coal fired ones? Global warming nuts getting their jets cooled by Homeland Security?
Not that I've heard of.. but you can bet veterans who's voter registration is stamped Republican will get a letter about who they should associate with. And if any write a letter to editor about B ho being a jerk.. look for a knock on the door.
We don't have a State Police yet.. but the bureaucracy for one is being built.. and so is the direction they will be repressing.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:46:17pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

SOME Conservatives are adopting a lot of revolutionary talk under the guise of patriotism. It's as anti-American as what the LLL has been doing for the past 8 years.

geeezz ,,,, again ,,, FTFY

208 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:46:24pm

re: #203 Alouette

Make mine pastrami on rye.

And the order better get made right, for it's our tax money that is paying for the sandwich that we now have to gamble for....

209 MacDuff  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:46:24pm

re: #201 Idle Drifter

I am leaning that way about Glocknspell.

Agent provocateur, clearly.

210 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:46:29pm

re: #198 DEZes

Dailykos is missing an idiot.

I'm guessing he not a lefty plant. He's a real whacked out conservative idiot.

211 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:46:40pm

re: #202 alegrias

* * * *
That civil war was a catastrophe that Spaniards are STILL arguing about today, and red-diaper babies such as President Zapatero try to pin on the other side.

Today, Ukrainians, Russians, Romanians work all over Spain as maids, garderners, laborers, anything. They voted with their feet away from socialist countries.

I KNOW, I KNOW, but the ends don't necessarily justify the means of what Franco pulled during the civil war (like Guernica). All I'm saying is that there's a lot of crap to give out on every side.

212 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:03pm

re: #210 Killgore Trout

I'm guessing he not a lefty plant. He's a real whacked out conservative idiot.

Nor Laupist

//

213 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:03pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

What is this "FCBBHO" of which you speak? There are something like nine instances on Google.

Something along the lines of Chimpy McHalliburton-Hitler, I'm guessing?

FuckingCommieBastardBarakHusseinObama. I don't see it along the lines of that Chimpy stuff but, you're free to see it as you wish.

214 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:27pm

These are neo Nazis, not conservatives.

215 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:28pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

I'm not going to add qualifiers to protect your very sensitive feelings. Stop crying.

216 SpaceJesus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:29pm

re: #176 MacDuff

That is a joke. Right?


9-11 was an inside job, ron paul ron paul ron paul ron paul ron paul

217 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:30pm

re: #210 Killgore Trout

I'm guessing he not a lefty plant. He's a real whacked out conservative idiot.

oh yes ,, All of it's conservative bashing and Obama praising makes me concur!

////////////////////

218 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:32pm

re: #210 Killgore Trout

I'm guessing he not a lefty plant. He's a real whacked out conservative idiot.

FTFY

219 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:40pm

re: #212 Gus 802

Probably.

220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:46pm

I don't like extremists. I don't care which side of the political spectrum they fall under.

221 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:07pm

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

222 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:08pm

re: #210 Killgore Trout

I'm guessing he not a lefty plant. He's a real whacked out conservative idiot.

We both agree he is an idiot, and I have smarter plants in my flower bed.

223 Kailen  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:13pm

re: #193 sattv4u2

Exactly where this one still should be ,, CLASSIFIED

re: #194 IslandLibertarian

It was being written. Then published. The read by those with a need to know.

re: #195 Killgore Trout

It's easy to find if you look.

And yet this one is being splashed all over the media.

Not buying it. This is a clear double standard, or simply a massive cluster-f by the Obama Administration. Are there specific, isolated cases of possible violent ring-wing extremism? Yes. But there are also cases of isolated violent LEFT-wing extremism. But that's not being reported.

There were plenty of plots to kill President Bush. There were plenty of unhappy "militias" wanting to "restore" the country when Republicans were in office. But now that there's a democrat, *NOW* they're getting attention again.

224 lifeofthemind  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:21pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don't like extremists. I don't care which side of the political spectrum they fall under.

I hate Illinois extremists.

225 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:22pm

re: #215 Killgore Trout

I'm not going to add qualifiers to protect your very sensitive feelings. Stop crying.

Has nothing to do with feelings, rather with accuracy. Seems as if you've been having a problem with that lately

226 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:38pm

re: #214 Joel

These are neo Nazis, not conservatives.

Reactionaries.

227 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:43pm

re: #138 NukeAtomrod

Erm... It's true that Nazis and Communists don't get along, but isn't that because they are a threat to each others' power? Ideologically, they aren't that far apart-- even though they self-identify themselves as Right and Left respectively.

From another quote page:

"If anything, the Nazi-Soviet War of 1941-1945 could be characterized as a drive-by shooting carried out on an industrial scale."

What you got there was two gangs of totalitarian collectivists competing fighting over land, slave labor, and other resources. Thus a gang war on an industrial scale.

228 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:48:53pm

re: #221 Charles

A Ron Paul thread would be lovely.

229 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:49:14pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

Conservatives are adopting a lot of revolutionary talk under the guise of patriotism. It's as anti-American as what the LLL has been doing for the past 8 years.

Well, we see how far 'progressive' talk has gotten us. It's working out swimmingly as of late.
But as long as I pay higher taxes to show my patriotism that's all that matters.

Equating paying higher taxes to patriotism is much more anti-American in my book.

230 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:49:29pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

Spill it! Spill it!

231 quickjustice  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:49:36pm

re: #157 Charles

"Evil" is different from "politicized". And "politicized" is different from "incompetent". Of these three, I'd choose "incompetent". If the report had named names-- which it could have done if it was intended for state and local officials only-- it would have been a better work product. Remember, the concerns of Homeland Security's lawyers were ignored in the rush to release.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't think Home Security is "evil". I think its a mishmash of poorly integrated agencies transferred to DHS in a hastily thought out administrative shuffle. With Tom Ridge in charge, the agency was a joke. Chertoff was slightly better, although Hurricane Katrina was botched. So far, Napolitano hasn't impressed me. Maybe that will change.

There are real threats to this country. On the evening of 9/11/01, I was sitting in my neighbor's backyard. He had just escaped with his wife from the World Financial Center next to Ground Zero. They had walked ten miles north to the Bronx, and then found a cab the rest of the way home. He was telling me his story as two jet fighters made passes overhead. I shook my head, and said to him, "Billions for defense, but still too little, too late."

Has anything really changed since 9/11?

232 dmandman  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:50:08pm

re: #162 quickjustice

Finally some else who read that....It was all laundered by Occidental Petroleum. After Armand Hammer died, guess which family was one of the biggest share holders...(Hint think global warming)...they just ditched there piece a few years ago.

233 Mich-again  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:50:13pm

re: #197 godfrey

I was surprised to read in the DHS report that the right-wing has a monopoly on hate-related extremism.

234 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:50:39pm

re: #229 Oh no...Sand People!

That's another thing; Conservatives bitching about paying taxes during a national crisis does not endear me to them.

235 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:51:08pm

re: #203 Alouette

Make mine pastrami on rye.

I love smoked turkey with baby Swiss on rye. mmmmm.

236 MacDuff  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:51:10pm

re: #216 SpaceJesus

9-11 was an inside job, ron paul ron paul ron paul ron paul ron paul

Oh. Forgive me from disturbing your psychotic episode.

237 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:51:19pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

Please do. We have had enough exploding heads for the week.

238 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:51:21pm

re: #149 alegrias

* * * *
Do you defend the people that shelled & destroyed my grandparents' house?

The Spanish CIVIL War had two sides with millions on each side. Do you defend the murder of employers, workers, nuns & priests, outlawing of religious beliefs, and destruction of churches and confiscation of private property by the Spanish Communists and Stalinists?

Yes, that's the same Franco that let Roosevelt and the US build military bases all over Spain.

Franco had to make some Faustian deals for the good of his nation. And Faustian deals always suck.

239 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:52:01pm

re: #223 Kailen

Not buying it

You can buy whatever you want. It's your money wasted. Fact is, there have been DAILY security ASSESSMENTS ongoing for decades. As I stated, they are amended as per new intel. Some are active, some are dormant. But ALL should be classified

240 godfrey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:52:06pm

re: #233 Mich-again

People need to take a deep breath. There will be more reports as more bad things come to light.

241 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:52:33pm
242 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:52:41pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

That's another thing; Conservatives bitching about paying taxes during a national crisis does not endear me to them.

Bitching about a government created crisis that will be made worse by taking more money from the consumer to go to programs of which not all are proven to rebound the economy doesn't endear you to us?

243 Kailen  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:52:57pm

re: #239 sattv4u2

Not buying it

You can buy whatever you want. It's your money wasted. Fact is, there have been DAILY security ASSESSMENTS ongoing for decades. As I stated, they are amended as per new intel. Some are active, some are dormant. But ALL should be classified

So why is THIS one publicly available? Do you simply not understand what I'm getting at here?

244 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:00pm

re: #167 Charles

That's hardly depicting them as benign.

It's part of a larger problem, wherein the left is defined by what they are for, and the right is defined by what we are against. So they sound cuddly, and we sound crusty. It didn't start at DHS, and it didn't start in this decade.

Everybody wants better quality from government than we're seeing in this DHS thing. Well, duh, that's why conservatives want smaller government to *begin* with. The Feds can't even bang out a simple report without getting all ham-fisted.

But going apeshit on DHS is like declaring war on some airspace through which a bullet came at you.

245 KingKenrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:01pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

What I'd like to see is who is paying the insurance and permit fees and who is organizing the speakers.

246 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:14pm

re: #24 GlockNspell

We have a candidate!
Will annefrance's record stand or fall?

247 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:14pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

When we discovered the euro-fascists, all sorts of excuses were made. I can't help but see similar excuses being made now. Mostly people worked up concerning the use of "right-wing extremists". But that's what they are. So, if I can't use the term "right-wing extremist" what should I call them?

Because that term 'right wing extremists' is being casually thrown around to include anyone who criticizes The Great Leader. I am conservative, not a right-wing extremist and I know wheer and who the danger to this country is coming from and it is not from the goofy Pat Robertson types but form the Janeane Garafalo's, Keith Olbermann's, Samantha Power's, Pat Buchanan's of this country.

248 freetoken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:26pm

re: #223 Kailen


There were plenty of plots to kill President Bush. There were plenty of unhappy "militias" wanting to "restore" the country when Republicans were in office. But now that there's a democrat, *NOW* they're getting attention again.

Umm... are you sure you want to follow that line of argument?

In other words, you are indirectly arguing that when Republicans were in office, they overlooked giving attention to, say, "militias".

249 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:26pm

re: #243 Kailen

So why is THIS one publicly available? Do you simply not understand what I'm getting at here?

It WASN'T supposed to be publicly available! It was leaked!

250 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:29pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

I want to hear it. But use your own judgment.

There's little doubt that the Ronulans (I love that moniker!) have sensed the power vacuum within the GOP/Conservative movement and are trying to exploit it to further their own ends. Exposing them is a worthy service.

The same thing happened early on with the anti-war protests against Iraq, which ANSWER took over to promote their Stalinist agenda.

251 dmandman  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:53:34pm

re: #221 Charles

As far as the RP acitivists....a broken clock is correct twice a day...I think they will be incidental and not a real factor in the future.

252 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:54:01pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

That's another thing; Conservatives bitching about paying taxes during a national crisis does not endear me to them.

I kinda don't see how taxes solve crisis's...

253 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:54:10pm

re: #211 davinvalkri

I KNOW, I KNOW, but the ends don't necessarily justify the means of what Franco pulled during the civil war (like Guernica). All I'm saying is that there's a lot of crap to give out on every side.

* * * *
I am not justifying whether Franco pulled a Fallujah on Guernica the Basque hot bed of insurgents with German built drones/Stukas.

THe United States decided to ally with Franco in Spain, so the USA made the judgment as to what was worse at that place, at that time.

I objected to communists trying to kill my hardworking relatives--including my floor-scrubbing, olive-picking grandmother with an elementary education.

254 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:54:38pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

That's another thing; Conservatives bitching about paying taxes during a national crisis does not endear me to them.

I have no problem paying my share of taxes. I do have a problem when they are raised to bail out GM, Chrysler, a bank, a mortgage lender. I'll buy a car if I want to help GM. I'll place my money in a bank if I want to help them. I'll buy another property if I want to support a mortgage co. Keep my TAX money out of failed PRIVATE SECTOR businesses and I won;t complain

255 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:54:38pm

re: #246 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We have a candidate!
Will annefrance's record stand or fall?

But most of us are on his side, he said so.
I need a beer.
G-day to Boomer, Hope it finds you well.

256 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:54:46pm
257 SpaceJesus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:55:10pm

re: #236 MacDuff

Oh. Forgive me from disturbing your psychotic episode.

sarcasm isn't your forte is it

258 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:55:22pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

I have no problem paying my share of taxes. I do have a problem when they are raised to bail out GM, Chrysler, a bank, a mortgage lender. I'll buy a car if I want to help GM. I'll place my money in a bank if I want to help them. I'll buy another property if I want to support a mortgage co. Keep my TAX money out of failed PRIVATE SECTOR businesses and I won;t complain

If I could +100 updings :)

259 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:55:24pm

re: #7 Gus 802

No doubt.

And Francisco Franco was a "leftist." /

Francisco Franco was a Monarchist. Stalin was the penultimate fascist.

260 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:55:49pm

re: #243 Kailen

So why is THIS one publicly available? Do you simply not understand what I'm getting at here?

IT WAS LEAKED ,,,are you not getting it?

Why ,,, by Who ,,,, TBD,, doesn't really matter, because the SUBSTANCE isn't wrong, and leaking it really doesn't matter (meaning it won;t stop the intent)

261 quickjustice  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:55:50pm

re: #221 Charles

I saw the Paulians at the NYC Tea Party event, handing out their wacky literature. The crowd was so large that they were totally outnumbered. The crowd was not comprised of Paulians.

I sure there's such evidence. I have photos myself of the Paulians in NYC. In NYC, I suspect that they've lost control of this movement, however.

262 Catttt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:56:08pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

That's another thing; Conservatives bitching about paying taxes during a national crisis does not endear me to them.

You're full of piss and whine of late, arncha.

263 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:56:30pm

re: #157 Charles

Or are we supposed to believe that the DHS is simply evil now?


I think of them as presently being stupid. But that belief may be revised in the future.

264 freetoken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:56:51pm

re: #256 taxfreekiller

Ron Paul will end up running as a Democrat in 2010.

During his speech last year at the 50th anniversary of the JBS, Ron Paul spoke about his political mentor (a Bircher), who told him it didn't matter which political party he joined, just that he should join the one needed to win the election.

265 Shug  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:56:58pm

I am against right wing terrorists.
I am against Left wing terrorists, like the ELF
I am against Islamist sleeper cells.

bust em all.

and don't single one out over the other, or ignore one because it isn't PC to mention it.

266 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:57:11pm

re: #253 alegrias

* * * *
I am not justifying whether Franco pulled a Fallujah on Guernica the Basque hot bed of insurgents with German built drones/Stukas.

THe United States decided to ally with Franco in Spain, so the USA made the judgment as to what was worse at that place, at that time.

I objected to communists trying to kill my hardworking relatives--including my floor-scrubbing, olive-picking grandmother with an elementary education.

So do I. Trust me, none of us like the commies. My mom was born in Vietnam, and she was one of the people who fled when the North Vietnamese did their reunification. But Franco, as stated above, effectively did a Faustian bargain to help Spain, and we can debate over the problems with that bargain, right?

267 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:57:11pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

That's another thing; Conservatives bitching about paying taxes during a national crisis does not endear me to them.

What I resent is paying the mortgages for dead beat assholes who bought real estate that they could not afford.

268 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:57:17pm

re: #258 Erik The Red

tanks

269 Kailen  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:57:24pm

re: #249 davinvalkri

It WASN'T supposed to be publicly available! It was leaked!

So back to my assertion: Double standard or administration cluster f-, yet the damage is done. It's out there, and once again the evil right-wing is getting bashed in the media, and quite frankly CJ's not helping right now.

Heads should roll that this was leaked. But they won't.

I'm not outraged that it was written, it's the fact that this bullshit is being shoved in our face, *AGAIN*. Remember the damn witch hunt after Oklahoma City? Do you remember anything like that while Bush was in office?

270 godfrey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:57:27pm

re: #263 The Other Les

I see them as being late to the party. What law enforcement pro doesn't know that ELFs and Skinheads cause trouble?

271 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:57:33pm

re: #262 Catttt

You're full of piss and whine of late, arncha.

d'accord!

272 jorline  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:58:00pm

re: #246 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We have a candidate!
Will annefrance's record stand or fall?

Hey pBMb...I think annefrance's record safe...wasn't it -400 on that one comment?
Annefrance had that euro, elitist, french, dumb shit thing all working at the same time.

273 callahan23  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:58:29pm

re: #257 SpaceJesus

sarcasm isn't your forte is it

Oh, c'mon knock it off. You've never mastered the use of the sarc-tag he? Like this/ or this / ?

274 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:58:41pm
275 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:59:16pm

re: #238 The Other Les

Franco had to make some Faustian deals for the good of his nation. And Faustian deals always suck.

* * * *
Franco's one of the few Spanish speaking dictators who let the US build bases all over Spain, Westernized at a rapid rate, and devolved his country to democracy & died leaving a working democracy in place.

Fidel still has gulags but no democracy, and you all know the other kleptocratic geriatric unsavory dictators the left thinks are sexy.

276 MacDuff  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:59:27pm

re: #257 SpaceJesus

sarcasm isn't your forte is it

Not particularly, but I thank you for the clarification.

277 quickjustice  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:59:41pm

re: #232 dmandman

Gore's father sat on the board of Occidental Petroleum. Gore himself sat on the board. Armand Hammer, who did business with Soviet Russia in the 1920s and thereafter, had a very close relationship with Al, Sr.

Hammer was unscrupulous in his dealing with the communist regime. Among other things, he fenced the loot stolen by the communists from the Russian nobility here in NYC.

278 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:59:54pm

re: #259 Joel

Francisco Franco was a Monarchist. Stalin was the penultimate fascist.

I was being sarcastic of course. A monarchist rightest who made some rather "faustian" alliances during WWII:

German ldr. Adolf Hitler (L) and Spanish leader Gen. Francisco Franco (R) giving "Nazi salute" as they walk down carpet at unident.

279 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:00:12pm

re: #246 pre-Boomer Marine brat

MWAH!

280 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:00:36pm

re: #221 Charles

Please expose any connection with the Hawaii Tea Party.
Really.

281 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:00:43pm

re: #274 taxfreekiller

The Ron Pauls were and are a minority, 1% of the U.S. and will stay that way.

Loon Democrats like the bat shit crazy Nancy Pelosi control the Congress and she tells Obama what time of day it is, and he bows lower to her than he did to the oil tick.

But but but...Pelosi said that the teaparties weren't grassroots! Her false teeth clicked out the word 'astroturfing'...and that Some big wigs in the party like George Soros funded them all...oh..wait?

282 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:00:54pm

re: #169 Erik The Red

Space has found sarcasm.

I'm not so sure, and down-dinged after re-reading that several times.

283 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:01:04pm

re: #200 Cato the Elder

What about the use of the term "racist" for racists? Like the guy on Facebook I just defriended for calling Obama the NiC?

In what way is the use of the term for that individual incorrect?

284 Kenneth  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:01:23pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

When we discovered the euro-fascists, all sorts of excuses were made. I can't help but see similar excuses being made now. Mostly people worked up concerning the use of "right-wing extremists". But that's what they are. So, if I can't use the term "right-wing extremist" what should I call them?

Back 2004, when Charles first posted on the whole euro-fascist issue, several LGFers found & posted links between the eurofascist parties and Ron Paul and the US white supremecists. They are still at it. Paranoid freaks like Alex Jones made the short jump from 9-11 conspiracy theories in which Bush was a dictator in league with the Jooos to a new America in which Obama is a dictator in league with the Jooos.

Crazy is as crazy does.

285 calcajun  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:01:32pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

When someone says this, ask them where is Nash? Where's DeSoto? Where's Packard? Where's Cord? Duesenberg? Hudson? They weren't big enough to fail--why should the Bog Three be exempt? Ask them--if you're willing to pull the plug on a loved one--let the Big Three die with some shred of dignity and not keep them on life-support.

286 jemima  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:01:33pm

duct tape, though, not "duck" tape.

287 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:02:44pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

Put it out.

/uh, pretty please? -- heh, just realized I was telling Charles what to post

288 NY Nana  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:02:50pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

A lot of us would like to hear it, as it will only add to the multitude of reasons, like this, that make him so deplorable. As long as the voters of Texas are willing to vote for that pathological psychopath, they will have to pay the price.

/And I am being kind.

Youtube Video
289 SpaceJesus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:03:20pm

re: #273 callahan23

Oh, c'mon knock it off. You've never mastered the use of the sarc-tag he? Like this/ or this / ?

?

290 jayzee  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:04:33pm
Anyone think stories like this might have something to do with the Department of Homeland Security being concerned about right wing extremism?

That and the Waco and OKC anniversaries?

291 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:04:40pm

re: #279 goddessoftheclassroom

MWAH!

OH YEAH?!

292 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:04:51pm

re: #278 Gus 802

I was being sarcastic of course. A monarchist rightest who made some rather "faustian" alliances during WWII:

German ldr. Adolf Hitler (L) and Spanish leader Gen. Francisco Franco (R) giving "Nazi salute" as they walk down carpet at unident.

I hated Franco but let us not forget that Franco refused Hitler access to Spain in order for the Nazis to attack Gibraltar. His diplomats also saved numerous Greek Jews by giving them Spanish citizenship. He was a brutal fuck during the Civil War but from the 1950's until his death he was basically an authoritarian dictator i.e if you stayed away from politics they would leave you alone. My sister went to summer school in Madrid in1970 and she told me (and she disliked Franco as much as any one else) that there was not a feeling of police state oppressiveness there. The Spanish Republic during the civil war was pretty much controlled by the Soviet N.K.V.D. which brutally suppressed all Republicans who were not Stalinists.

293 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:04:54pm

re: #273 callahan23

Oh, c'mon knock it off. You've never mastered the use of the sarc-tag he? Like this/ or this / ?

Sarcasm ags are for people who can't write.

</EndOfComment>

294 calcajun  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:05:19pm

re: #221 Charles

Please-- tell it. Make some more heads go "pop".

If for no other reason alone, Ron Paul should be shunned by calling for a return to the gold standard. If you want to see Weimar Republic-like inflation right now--then that is the surest way to bring it about.

295 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:05:50pm

re: #284 Kenneth

Well- I think it was late in 2007 when it sprung up, but I otherwise completely agree.

296 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:06:05pm

re: #287 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Put it out.

/uh, pretty please? -- heh, just realized I was telling Charles what to post

I'm going to wait until an opportune moment.

297 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:06:21pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

Please go ahead with it!
As soon as you can find time after posting all the dropouts from Durban II

298 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:06:49pm

re: #294 calcajun

If for no other reason alone, Ron Paul should be shunned by calling for a return to the gold standard. If you want to see Weimar Republic-like inflation right now--then that is the surest way to bring it about.

Absolutely correct -- reverting to the gold standard is a crazy pipe dream.

299 calcajun  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:07:26pm

re: #296 Charles

But I want it now.--Veruca Salt

300 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:07:43pm

re: #226 MandyManners

Reactionaries.

Reactionaries come from both the Left and Right. Obama is one of the biggest reactionaries out there - he wants to return to the LBJ years of massive spending.

301 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:07:48pm

re: #2 big steve

At what point does one unfortunately have to "own" something? I hear all the time about ghetto crime and how people are always expecting minorities to some how feel embarrassed as to what their "group" has done. Does this work in reverse for us white males? I am beginning to think so because stories such as the above actually make me feel viscerally embarrassed for white males in general.

Yep. It's real hard to tell Muslims and other groups to police their own and then refuse to do the same with our own weirdos.

I'm a small government conservative white female, and would really, really like to see a serious long-term effort by the GOP to out these creeps and announce in no uncertain terms that the party doesn't want these folks' money, time, or votes.

302 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:07:57pm

With respect to what "Unclassified // For Official Use Only" means on the left wing and right wing extremism reports, is there anyone who knows about what they speak regarding who can shed light on:

(a) how are these reports disseminated to the media and the general public.

(b) does anyone in DHS really care that they are released, notwithstanding the stuff about "Law Enforcement Sensitive" information. Has anyone been prosecuted?

(c) how did the left and right wing reports come to be released to the general public?

My suspicion is their either a lot of callow naievete going-on if anyone thinks for a skinny second that the DHS truly meant to keep these things under wraps. The left wing report is here for the curious.

To give proper credit, the writing is equally banal and the conclusions seem equally strained and thinly-sourced.

303 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:08:07pm

re: #199 captdiggs

Still looking forward to the DHS report on Islamic extremism and its propensity to effect "man-caused disasters".

I have no problem with DHS doing a report on the well known risks of neo nazis, skinheads, et al...but they seem to be sticking their head in the sand when it comes to the far greater threat from militant political Islam.

Here you go:

[Link: homelandsecurity.tamu.edu...]

304 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:08:19pm

re: #296 Charles

I'm going to wait until an opportune moment.

heh ... I hope I happen to wander in about 30 minutes later

/truth is not afraid of bright sunlight

305 NY Nana  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:10:29pm

re: #246 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We have a candidate!
Will annefrance's record stand or fall?

Here you go...you may judge for yourself!

306 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:10:41pm

re: #291 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OH YEAH?!

Amateur...

307 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:11:24pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

Conservatives are adopting a lot of revolutionary talk under the guise of patriotism. It's as anti-American as what the LLL has been doing for the past 8 years.

You read his posts. Does he strike you as a conservative?

308 quickjustice  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:12:31pm

Waiting to pounce, eh Charles? You've already persuaded me that Paul is linked to neo-Nazis. A lot of his followers are libertarians who don't know this. You're doing them a service by pointing this out again, and by linking tea party leadership to Paulians.

309 The Other Les  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:12:40pm

re: #294 calcajun

Please-- tell it. Make some more heads go "pop".

If for no other reason alone, Ron Paul should be shunned by calling for a return to the gold standard. If you want to see Weimar Republic-like inflation right now--then that is the surest way to bring it about.

If you want Weimar style inflation you have to run the printing press. The gold standard locks the quantity of notes in circulation to the amount of gold in the inventory. What you have with the gold standard is the opposite effect from Weimar inflation.

310 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:13:05pm

re: #4 Charles

Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists."

Sorry, I was late to the party.

Neo-Nazis are socialists, ergo leftwing extremists.

The subject of your blog post was a racist nutter. Neither being racist nor being a nutjob makes him "right wing."

311 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:13:27pm

re: #298 Charles

Absolutely correct -- reverting to the gold standard is a crazy pipe dream.

A 'Copper Standard' for the world's currency system?

Hard money enthusiasts have long watched for signs that China is switching its foreign reserves from US Treasury bonds into gold bullion. They may have been eyeing the wrong metal.

China's State Reserves Bureau (SRB) has instead been buying copper and other industrial metals over recent months on a scale that appears to go beyond the usual rebuilding of stocks for commercial reasons.

Nobu Su, head of Taiwan's TMT group, which ships commodities to China, said Beijing is trying to extricate itself from dollar dependency as fast as it can.

And you thought copper theft was bad now.

/good time to be invested in copper miners

312 quickjustice  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:13:53pm

re: #309 The Other Les

Our economy isn't structured to take long-term deflation. Deflation is the same as contraction in the economy. That's where we are right now.

313 Colonel Panik  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:15:02pm

re: #261 quickjustice

I saw the Paulians at the NYC Tea Party event, handing out their wacky literature. The crowd was so large that they were totally outnumbered. The crowd was not comprised of Paulians.

I sure there's such evidence. I have photos myself of the Paulians in NYC. In NYC, I suspect that they've lost control of this movement, however.

I would say I observed the same thing here in Phoenix. There was a small contingent of Paulians with a bullhorn, but they were hardly the bulk of the crowd, and they were certainly not the center of attention, despite their attempts to become so. The Tea Party movement here in AZ seems pretty firmly in control of mainstream fiscally conservative Republicans like Congressman John Shadegg, former Congressman and radio talk show host J.D. Hayworth and a number of small business advocates.

KFYI Radio, which was one of the sponsors of the Tea Party here in PHX estimated the turnout at around 6000.

There were a lot of families with small children, elderly folks and military veterans. Racially it was predominantly white, but there were enough Hispanics and Asians to keep it from being an all white crowd.

314 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:15:48pm

re: #294 calcajun

Please-- tell it. Make some more heads go "pop".

If for no other reason alone, Ron Paul should be shunned by calling for a return to the gold standard. If you want to see Weimar Republic-like inflation right now--then that is the surest way to bring it about.

The gold standard stuff is stupid, but the Stormfront association is evil, I think. Full disclosure--I've not researched Stormfront much (like never gone to their website), but if it's a white supremacist organization like I've heard from lots of sources I trust, his friendship with them is way worse than the gold standard fantasy.

Also, remember when Ronulans were trying excuse his decades of racist newsletters by saying that Lew Rockwell had written them and Paul didn't know how nasty they were? Now that the election is over, Lew Rockwell has been given the thumbs-up by that Fox News guy?

YUCK

315 calcajun  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:16:47pm

re: #309 The Other Les

And with the number of notes in circulation right now--you'd get it if you switched standards. Now, if you pulled money in, you'd end up with monetary contraction--which is just as bad.

316 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:17:40pm

re: #305 NY Nana

Here you go...you may judge for yourself!

Puzzling, there are still four plus votes (and the window won't show me who they are.)

317 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:18:06pm

re: #281 Oh no...Sand People!

But but but...Pelosi said that the teaparties weren't grassroots! Her false teeth clicked out the word 'astroturfing'...and that Some big wigs in the party like George Soros funded them all...oh..wait?

I admit having a problem with people trying to make the claim that tax protests were driven by Ron Paul, etc... The Paulinians were against the Iraq war as well. Were they behind all the leftist moveon/answer protests?

318 calcajun  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:18:11pm

re: #314 funky chicken

The gold standard stuff is stupid

It's suicidal. I said shun him if for no other reason. The man has lots of flaws worthy of heavy derision.

319 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:19:23pm

re: #306 goddessoftheclassroom

Amateur...

*hands up*
*cackling uncontrollably*
I SURRENDER !

320 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:26:14pm

Let's assume the Paulians organized every tea party protest last Wednesday. 99% of those that attended the protests had no inkling of any Paulian influence.

/if the Paulians throw a massive protest on tax day and no one gives them credit for it . . .

321 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:27:45pm

re: #320 Killian Bundy

Let's assume the Paulians organized every tea party protest last Wednesday. 99% of those that attended the protests had no inkling of any Paulian influence.

/if the Paulians throw a massive protest on tax day and no one gives them credit for it . . .

heh ... considering their collective ego, that's an interesting point.

322 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:27:59pm

re: #312 quickjustice

Our economy isn't structured to take long-term deflation. Deflation is the same as contraction in the economy. That's where we are right now.

Not for long.

/just wait until all that newly printed money hits the fan

323 NY Nana  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:29:34pm

re: #316 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Puzzling, there are still four plus votes (and the window won't show me who they are.)

That is also a mystery to me. IIRC, there is a Lizard who has the print out of all those who dug her down, plus the 4 who must have been too tired to read.

And to think that she is a lawyer, in Quebec. Unbelievable.

324 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:33:36pm

re: #323 NY Nana

And to think that she is a lawyer, in Quebec. Unbelievable.

annefrance? ... figures.

325 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:34:33pm

re: #320 Killian Bundy

Let's assume the Paulians organized every tea party protest last Wednesday. 99% of those that attended the protests had no inkling of any Paulian influence.

/if the Paulians throw a massive protest on tax day and no one gives them credit for it . . .

What I can't understand is that an awful lot on non-Paulians who supported the tea parties get upset if the Paulian aspect is mentioned. I would hope that normal folks would be more interested in outing and discrediting the Paulians than in attacking the messenger that they are around.

326 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:39:20pm

re: #325 funky chicken

What I can't understand is that an awful lot on non-Paulians who supported the tea parties get upset if the Paulian aspect is mentioned. I would hope that normal folks would be more interested in outing and discrediting the Paulians than in attacking the messenger that they are around.

/Paulian are getting way too much credit for organizing what happened Wednesday

327 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:41:40pm

re: #325 funky chicken

What I can't understand is that an awful lot on non-Paulians who supported the tea parties get upset if the Paulian aspect is mentioned. I would hope that normal folks would be more interested in outing and discrediting the Paulians than in attacking the messenger that they are around.

/if you go back and read the anecdotal accounts of the protest attendees, there were very few Paulians in attendance to out or discredit

328 Colonel Panik  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:44:41pm

re: #325 funky chicken

What I can't understand is that an awful lot on non-Paulians who supported the tea parties get upset if the Paulian aspect is mentioned. I would hope that normal folks would be more interested in outing and discrediting the Paulians than in attacking the messenger that they are around.

We know they are around. That point's been driven into the ground. I suspect what a lot of us are getting angry about is thet fact that certain individuals keep screaming "teh Paulians are runnin' teh Tea Partehs!" while the movement itself has left the Paulians in the dust. I think the Paulians are irrelevant at this point, and the people attacking the Tea Party movement on this basis are doing the Dems work for them. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in is we allowed the left to dominate both the mainstream media and the "street" discourse for the last 8 years. The Tea Parties are an attempt by conservatives to "take back the street" and send a message to the mainstream media that there are many Americans who are pissed off at the Pelosi congress and do not worship "the One", and for that reason I applaud them and am suspicious of any attempts to marginalize them, especially by armchair quarterbacks who have not actually attended them.

329 NY Nana  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:47:01pm

re: #324 pre-Boomer Marine brat

annefrance? ... figures.

There are a number of articles about her on the internet, but they give her surname, which I would not post.

Personally? I hope that she is on a 'do not admit to the USA' watch list with her name on it, after what she was spewing.

330 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:48:05pm

I recommend that people sign up for Google News alerts on "ron paul tea party." You'll be amazed at what shows up in your email.

331 Shay4l  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:55:08pm

re: #317 Wendya

I admit having a problem with people trying to make the claim that tax protests were driven by Ron Paul, etc... The Paulinians were against the Iraq war as well. Were they behind all the leftist moveon/answer protests?

It would be a shame if the righteous intent of hundreds of thousands of people taking off from work, protesting runaway spending of trillions of dollars we don't have, can be negated because a handful of nutbags piggybacked on the event for publicity purposes.

332 Laugh a Lot  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:55:28pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

Ooooh, a conspiracy!

333 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:57:24pm

re: #330 Charles

I recommend that people sign up for Google News alerts on "ron paul tea party." You'll be amazed at what shows up in your email.

Crazy stuff no doubt, but I agree, no matter how much the Paulians keep trying to take credit for what "tea parties" are becoming, the concept has outstripped their control.

/by all rumblings, July 4th will be much larger

334 LesLein  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:57:24pm

re: #128 SixDegrees

Yup, I know who he was. My comment was a slight variant of an old Chevy Chase SNL skit.

If I knew were Franco was buried, I'd consider mailing an occasional jar of urine to a local who would dump it on his grave for me.

But I mostly save it for use on Coleman Young's tomb.

Here you go:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

335 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:58:53pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

There's a correlation-causation issue here. Actually, there are more than one.

336 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:00:33pm

ron paul tea party

/news tab

337 LesLein  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:09:58pm

If DHS is investigating people solely based on constitutionally protected activities -- and its report didn't identify a specific threat -- then it may be breaking the law.

[Link: article.nationalreview.com...]

338 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:10:59pm

The minimum attendance estimate for last Wednesday I've seen is 250,000, with numbers ranging up to over twice that, at hundreds, if not thousands, of locations nationwide.

/that ain't Paulians

339 Colonel Panik  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:13:29pm

The Republican primaries proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Paulian internet noise factor is way out of proportion to their actual numbers and level of support in the real world.

That goes for the Tea Parties as well.

340 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:22:30pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

I have no problem paying my share of taxes. I do have a problem when they are raised to bail out GM, Chrysler, a bank, a mortgage lender. I'll buy a car if I want to help GM. I'll place my money in a bank if I want to help them. I'll buy another property if I want to support a mortgage co. Keep my TAX money out of failed PRIVATE SECTOR businesses and I won;t complain

Lets build more bankruptcy courts to deal with the problem, or just use the ones we already have.

341 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:22:59pm

re: #41 Charles

The report was not released to the public or to the media. It was intended for law enforcement only, and it was marked "For Official Use Only."

This has to be the hundredth time I've had to post this.

The report was released to every law enforcement agency, big and small, in the country. You'd have to be living in fantasy land if you thought this administration, or any administration would not have known it was certainly going to become part of the public record immediately upon it's release.

342 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:49:48pm

re: #332 Laugh a Lot

Bye now! Take care.

343 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:51:38pm

re: #341 JarHeadLifer

The report was released to every law enforcement agency, big and small, in the country. You'd have to be living in fantasy land if you thought this administration, or any administration would not have known it was certainly going to become part of the public record immediately upon it's release.

And I didn't say that I didn't expect that. However, what did happen is a lot worse -- it was immediately seized upon by ideologues and demagogues, and distorted beyond recognition.

344 JeremyR  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:14:17pm

Charles, I have a very hard time grouping the neonutsies in with right wing groups. Since most of their ideology is based on racial hate, and Conservatives have led the USA in racial equality, they are a square peg in a round hole. Some ideologies just do not fit a left vs right pattern, and the Nazi's of today are that. Nationalist Socialism was in fact a poor description, Hitler was a hater and little more. His dislike of socialism had more to do with race then political leaning since many members of the communist party were jews. While Hitler applied many socialist ideas to his methods, he was all over the board.
The Skin heads of today are centered on one thing and one thing only, hate based on race. If we had elected a conservative black would it be right to label them as leftist hate groups? I wouldn't think so. They are loose cannons and little else. They fuel on rage and direct it against their intended target. Many of the hate groups came out in support of Obama because they saw him for what he is, a weak leader with rhetoric instead of ideals. They want him to be a collasal failure. For many of the groups, assasination is not in the cards. they know that to do so would undermine their cause. Rather they will seek to magnify his every failure, every mistake every gaff. In that respect they ae like conservatives. The left did exactly that with Bush. Where I believe we should differ is that we should take time to applaud his successes.
His comment regarding Dan O's drivel should be repeated and rerepeated.

345 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:16:44pm
346 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:20:48pm

re: #345 gitarfan

Bye now! Take care. Sorry, but your dramatic flounce-off comment has been deleted.

347 hazzyday  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:21:59pm

I was reading yesterday that the frontal cortext is not fully formed until around age 25. Until that time we are less distinguished from chimpanzees.

People under 25 are more likely to act irrationally. After the first big job, first big love they mature.

348 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:22:34pm

re: #345 gitarfan

You're so not getting your dramatic exit, fool...

349 hazzyday  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:27:45pm

re: #311 Killian Bundy

And you thought copper theft was bad now.

/good time to be invested in copper miners

Gold has no more intrinsic value then paper. It's rare, malleable, and pretty. Paper is common, artsy, and can look like gold. It's a matter of taste. I am not sure why people want to go back to a gold standard. Actually Vodka would be a much better medium of exchange in dire times. Or a platinum based exchange.

350 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:42:03pm

re: #349 hazzyday

Gold has no more intrinsic value then paper.

/worst comes to worst, you can eat paper

351 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:45:29pm

re: #221 Charles

By the way, I've discovered quite a bit more evidence that Ron Paul activists are deeply involved in the organization of the "tea parties," but since nobody seems to want to hear it, I'll just hold onto it for now.

I, for one, DO wanna hear it.

More knowledge cannot help but be a GOOD thing.

352 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:59:41pm

re: #310 chipbennett

Sorry, I was late to the party.

Neo-Nazis are socialists, ergo leftwing extremists.

The subject of your blog post was a racist nutter. Neither being racist nor being a nutjob makes him "right wing."

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

353 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:22:29pm

re: #247 Joel

Because that term 'right wing extremists' is being casually thrown around to include anyone who criticizes The Great Leader. I am conservative, not a right-wing extremist and I know wheer and who the danger to this country is coming from and it is not from the goofy Pat Robertson types but form the Janeane Garafalo's, Keith Olbermann's, Samantha Power's, Pat Buchanan's of this country.

Sorry, but I happen to think that Pat Robertson encouraging his drones to flood the DHS with calls and clog up the phone lines of an agency design to protect American citizens from terrorist attacks to be quite dangerous. Far more dangerous than anything that idiot Garafalo has ever said.

The man is scum. Selfish, hating, conspiracy mongering scum.

354 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:26:05pm

re: #331 Shay4l

It would be a shame if the righteous intent of hundreds of thousands of people taking off from work, protesting runaway spending of trillions of dollars we don't have, can be negated because a handful of nutbags piggybacked on the event for publicity purposes.

I take offense to the characterization of the protesters as "useful idiots".

355 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:34:04pm

re: #353 Slumbering Behemoth

Sorry, but I happen to think that Pat Robertson encouraging his drones to flood the DHS with calls and clog up the phone lines of an agency design to protect American citizens from terrorist attacks to be quite dangerous. Far more dangerous than anything that idiot Garafalo has ever said.

The man is scum. Selfish, hating, conspiracy mongering scum.

Sorry but I don't feel threatened by Robertson,. Garafalo is a filthy mouthed bitch who needs a shower in the worst way,

356 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:36:02pm

re: #310 chipbennett

Sorry, I was late to the party.

Neo-Nazis are socialists, ergo leftwing extremists.

The People's Republic of China. Republic is in the name, so it obviously must be a republican state. Republicans are "right wing", therefore, ergo, ipso facto, Chinese communists are also "right wing".

/pretzel logic word games are fun

357 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:39:18pm

re: #355 Joel

Are you saying you do not think that that scum bag going on tv, and calling for his drones to clog the phone lines of an agency charged with protecting Americans from terrorist activity, is dangerous?

358 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:46:49pm

re: #343 Charles

I happen to think both sides are a little wrong, and a little right. Clearly, people who fit into the skinhead, militia, right-wing anarchists or McVeigh camp are dangerous. They've been dangerous for at least 20 years. I think the semantic debate about what label to slap on them is just that, semantics. I'm sure the report was generally well sourced and the arguments it makes are compelling on many levels.

Having said that, I think it would also be naive to believe that this administration, or at least an element within the administration, did not look at this as a way to score some political points. You don't create a "classified" document, and then make 25K copies, distribute it to every nook and cranny of the country, if you're not hoping for it to become public. And, if you cede that point, you have to ask why did they want it to become public if not for political purposes.

As for Beck et. al. He's a moron that add almost nothing to public discourse, insight or debate. I find that if I ignore him with the same intensity that I ignore Olbermann and Maddow, I seem to have a much more pleasant day.

359 Claire  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:22pm

Alright, Okay, Fine. The next Tea Party, I'm gonna carry a sign that says "Ron Paul is a Nut, But I Still Do Not Like the Way Our Country is Headed." The other side will say, "I Like Israel, I like the Federal Reserve, I Don't Want to Secede, DHS- Carry On!, I Still Don't Want My Taxes Quadrupled to Pay for Obama's Social Justice, Oh, and BTW, Ron Paul is a Nut!"

And then when a DHS cruiser comes by, I'll be the first to whistle- Szweet! Hey over here! And point them to the guy with the "Fair Tax" sign.

It's either that, or keep writing letters to my reps that get thrown in the trash and sitting quietly whilst my betters decide my fate. They have my best interest at heart, you know- they really do. Why worry? Nothing ever happens to change anything for real- it's all a ruse- they won't raise taxes, 79% income tax in the 70's was just an historical oddity, never to be repeated.....

360 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:58:37pm

re: #359 Claire

And then when a DHS cruiser comes by, I'll be the first to whistle- Szweet! Hey over here! And point them to the guy with the "Fair Tax" sign.

The Fair Tax isn't a Ron Paul invention. Personally, I like the idea but then again, I no longer have a mortgage or a house full of deductions either so I can see why some people are absolutely antagonistic toward it.

361 Joel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:09:20pm

re: #357 Slumbering Behemoth

Are you saying you do not think that that scum bag going on tv, and calling for his drones to clog the phone lines of an agency charged with protecting Americans from terrorist activity, is dangerous?

I think it is ridiculous but Robertson is not a terrorist. Also it is not illegal to call an agency and complain.

362 SteveRogers  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:19:27pm

re: #58 Idle Drifter

I think most people fail to understand that these extremist groups and individuals often label themselves as Left or Right. Ask an Anarchist his political leanings he'll say left. Ask a Skinhead he'll say right. It's more akin to drawing a line in the sand to determine friend or foe. Those of us who refuse to be part of these extreme groups won't be so much labeled "Centrists" as declared targets.

There's anarchists on the extreme Right as well.
But other than anarchy, they have basically little in common with extreme Leftist anarchists. Both are FUBAR and very dangerous.

363 SteveRogers  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:21:42pm

re: #360 Wendya

The Fair Tax isn't a Ron Paul invention. Personally, I like the idea but then again, I no longer have a mortgage or a house full of deductions either so I can see why some people are absolutely antagonistic toward it.

Personally, I would like to see a flat tax which is even simpler than the fair tax, but that will not happen in my lifetime, if ever.

364 kansas  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:32:15pm

re: #358 JarHeadLifer

..why did they want it to become public if not for political purposes...

.

Saul Alinsky
"The real action is in the enemy's reaction. The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength."

Feeling properly goaded?

365 philip  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:07:12pm

I know many veterans and none of them are "offended" by this report. Many of them undergo training to deal with extremists who try to recruit them.

This whole issue is being brought up and granstanded upon by conservative commentators to try to sweep under the rug the very blatant fact that the right wing has been emboldened and angered by the election of an African-American president.

366 Ezekiel  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:21:46pm

Forgive me for actually posting useful information about the two men charged in this plot. I know the Cowart kid, his mother, stepfather, and grandparents. While they certainly had grandiose plans for killing Obama, they couldn't even pull off an armed robbery of a local senior citizen or shooting up an African American church after midnight without getting nabbed. The only serious threat they ever posed was to themselves. This was nothing more than a couple of rubes who found a common link to friendship in the hatred of blacks. They were certainly not a serious threat to the POTUS. That said, lock em up and throw away the key....if for no other reason than being morons.

367 meeshlr  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:28:55pm

re: #221 Charles

I vote for hearing it.

368 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:38:45pm

re: #365 philip

I know many veterans and none of them are "offended" by this report. Many of them undergo training to deal with extremists who try to recruit them.

I spent 20+ years as a Marine officer. I know plenty of vets, and active duty Marines that are a little offended. I say a little, because it's just that - but, it's still there. I think if the report came out by itself, it wouldn't have been a big deal, even with the gas pouring, talk-show shock jocks. But, the Penn St. educational video that showed how to deal with possibly violent veterans came to light just a couple weeks before, and this set the primed the pump.

As for being recruited by extremists, I've never seen nor heard any kind of anti-extremist recruitment training from the DOD. And, if it existed, believe me, I would have. It doesn't exist, nor does it happen because it's not needed. I think that statement alone plays into these fears of veterans that does seem to bubble on the American left. On the list of hundreds of potential problems for combat veterans, falling victim the recruiting wiles of skinheads or neo-nazis is about dead last.

369 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:39:32pm

re: #356 Slumbering Behemoth

The People's Republic of China. Republic is in the name, so it obviously must be a republican state. Republicans are "right wing", therefore, ergo, ipso facto, Chinese communists are also "right wing".

/pretzel logic word games are fun

You're way late to this circular game.

I keep pointing out the socialist beliefs of the Nazis, and Charles keeps telling me that Nazis aren't socialist/left-wing. It doesn't so much have to do with their name, as it does their ideology.

(By the way, thanks for supporting my point that white supremacists self-identifying as right-wing doesn't make it so. That seems to be another point of contention.)

370 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:41:53pm

re: #358 JarHeadLifer

I happen to think both sides are a little wrong, and a little right. Clearly, people who fit into the skinhead, militia, right-wing anarchists or McVeigh camp are dangerous. They've been dangerous for at least 20 years. I think the semantic debate about what label to slap on them is just that, semantics. I'm sure the report was generally well sourced and the arguments it makes are compelling on many levels.

Except that, it wasn't well-sourced.

The report's primary sources are the extremely biased Southern Poverty Law Center, and an FBI report on gang member infiltration in the military.

371 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:48:50pm

re: #362 SteveRogers

There's anarchists on the extreme Right as well.
But other than anarchy, they have basically little in common with extreme Leftist anarchists. Both are FUBAR and very dangerous.

The primary difference, though, is that leftwing anarchists actively seek to cause chaos and disrupt the establishment, while rightwing anarchists generally just want to be left alone, to withdraw from the establishment.

The leftwing anarchist nutjobs are the ones (mostly) going out and bombing public buildings, etc. The rightwing anarchist nutjobs are the ones (mostly) getting busted for stockpiling weapons.

In other words, the leftwing anarchist nutjobs go on the offensive (in general), while the rightwing anarchist nutjobs go on the defensive (in general). The former represents a prima facie threat of danger, while the latter is (mostly) only dangerous if provoked.

(Lots of caveats in there, because exceptions do exist on either end of the spectrum.)

372 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:51:14pm

re: #369 chipbennett

Beat that dead horse! It might come back to life.

373 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:51:27pm

re: #365 philip

I know many veterans and none of them are "offended" by this report. Many of them undergo training to deal with extremists who try to recruit them.

This whole issue is being brought up and granstanded upon by conservative commentators to try to sweep under the rug the very blatant fact that the right wing has been emboldened and angered by the election of an African-American president.

As a member of that right wing, I resent the assertion that the right wing has been angered by the election of an African-American president.

The right wing is angered by, if anything, the election of one of the most radical left-wing presidents in history. Race has nothing to do with it.

Please stop labeling the right wing as racist.

374 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:53:41pm

re: #366 Ezekiel

Forgive me for actually posting useful information about the two men charged in this plot. I know the Cowart kid, his mother, stepfather, and grandparents. While they certainly had grandiose plans for killing Obama, they couldn't even pull off an armed robbery of a local senior citizen or shooting up an African American church after midnight without getting nabbed. The only serious threat they ever posed was to themselves. This was nothing more than a couple of rubes who found a common link to friendship in the hatred of blacks. They were certainly not a serious threat to the POTUS. That said, lock em up and throw away the key....if for no other reason than being morons.

So they're racists. And their plot revolved not around a political ideology, but rather by their shared racism.

So can we dispense with the attempt to use these two wackos as examples of rightwing extremism, and just call them what they are: racist wackos?

375 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:07:23pm

re: #370 chipbennett

Except that, it wasn't well-sourced.

I should have chosen a better word than "sourced". I was referring to the specific examples the report gives with respect to the threat of domestic terrorist. I should have chosen "documented" or "illustrated" perhaps.

As for the source material itself, it's not cited at all in the report. I assumed they used case files, or compiled statistics from the FBI and State law enforcement agencies. I didn't see Southern Poverty Law or even "gang" anywhere in the report. They do cite specific examples of ongoing or contemporary domestic terrorist threats. I thought it was a positive sign that they appear to base their finding on documented facts, and not based purely on conjecture or hypothesis.

Like I've said, I'm not without issue on the report, the timing of it's release or some of the language that is used. For me the most troubling aspect of the report is that is freely and frequently uses the word "terrorist". And yet, the administration has made a conscience decision to not use that word in any other official capacity with respect to our enemies abroad. That is ridiculous.

376 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:18:50pm

re: #375 JarHeadLifer

I should have chosen a better word than "sourced". I was referring to the specific examples the report gives with respect to the threat of domestic terrorist. I should have chosen "documented" or "illustrated" perhaps.

As for the source material itself, it's not cited at all in the report. I assumed they used case files, or compiled statistics from the FBI and State law enforcement agencies. I didn't see Southern Poverty Law or even "gang" anywhere in the report. They do cite specific examples of ongoing or contemporary domestic terrorist threats. I thought it was a positive sign that they appear to base their finding on documented facts, and not based purely on conjecture or hypothesis.

Like I've said, I'm not without issue on the report, the timing of it's release or some of the language that is used. For me the most troubling aspect of the report is that is freely and frequently uses the word "terrorist". And yet, the administration has made a conscience decision to not use that word in any other official capacity with respect to our enemies abroad. That is ridiculous.

I'm having a hard time finding in the report: a) any specific examples of past "rightwing extremism" other than Timothy McVeigh, or b) any specific examples of impending "rightwing extremist" activity. Rather quite to the contrary, the report in multiple places indicates that it specifically has no evidence whatsoever that any "rightwing extremists" are planning any extremist activities.

(By the way, you're right in that the report doesn't indicate its sources. It's a common tactic of such reports when using SPLC as a primary source. I've linked both the SPLC "report" referenced, as well as the FBI gang activity report referenced - both thanks to PowerLine.)

And, I agree on your last point, wholeheartedly.

377 Kozak  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:23:39pm

Silly me. And here I though National Socialism was a left wing ideology. You know, Communism's evil twin. It's really sad when even conservatives swallow the fiction that National Socialism somehow belongs to the "right" of the political spectrum.

378 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:37:06pm

re: #376 chipbennett

I'm having a hard time finding in the report: a) any specific examples of past "rightwing extremism" other than Timothy McVeigh, or b) any specific examples of impending "rightwing extremist" activity. Rather quite to the contrary, the report in multiple places indicates that it specifically has no evidence whatsoever that any "rightwing extremists" are planning any extremist activities.

Yeah. That's the "language" part that I have a problem with as well. They should have named the specific organizations, groups or movements for the examples they gave and avoided using the words as broadly or relatively defined as "right" or "left". This would have saved a tremendous amount of controversy.

For a great example would have be the OJ Simpson case. If the FBI would have released a report shortly after the murder that effectively said...

"OJ was a black man with an estranged white wife which he eventually murdered. Ergo, Law Enforcement please be aware that black men pose a risk to the white women they may be married to".

This is essentially what the DHS has done to "right wingers" (however you define right wingers) and veterans.

379 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:41:56pm

Nazi's very cynically used socialist rhetoric to appeal to voters, have you guys ever taken a class on modern German history? I have, and suggest you do. The notion that Nazism is somehow related to the Code Pinks or the Weather Undergrounds of the political spectrum is patently absurd.

380 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:46:46pm

re: #379 MrPaulRevere

Nazi's very cynically used socialist rhetoric to appeal to voters, have you guys ever taken a class on modern German history? I have, and suggest you do. The notion that Nazism is somehow related to the Code Pinks or the Weather Undergrounds of the political spectrum is patently absurd.

There are stark differences to be sure. But, I bet the Nazis, Code Pink and the Weather Underground could all agree that government should play a significant, controlling of even totalitarian role with respect to the operation, direction and perhaps even the distribution of profits of private business. That similarity cannot be discounted nor denied.

381 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:51:40pm

re: #380 JarHeadLifer

There are stark differences to be sure. But, I bet the Nazis, Code Pink and the Weather Underground could all agree that government should play a significant, controlling of even totalitarian role with respect to the operation, direction and perhaps even the distribution of profits of private business. That similarity cannot be discounted nor denied.

No, it cannot. But that does not mean they are cut from the same political cloth. The Nazis were more nationalist than socialist, whereas communist inspired groups have a very internationist flavor.

382 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:51:45pm

Jarhead, just say 'I reject authoritarianism and totalitarianism in all its forms and guises'. That works for me.

383 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:55:35pm

re: #382 MrPaulRevere

Yep. That works for me too. I don't want anyone defining what my happiness is or isn't, or how I should go about achieving it. That goes for the far left, the religious right.

From my perspective, just tell me what the speed limit is and stay the hell out of my way.

384 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:13:45pm

re: #369 chipbennett

You're way late to this circular game.

I keep pointing out the socialist beliefs of the Nazis, and Charles keeps telling me that Nazis aren't socialist/left-wing. It doesn't so much have to do with their name, as it does their ideology.

(By the way, thanks for supporting my point that white supremacists self-identifying as right-wing doesn't make it so. That seems to be another point of contention.)

As I pointed out, it has less to do with what they said than with what they did. The Nazis embraced tribal ethnocentrism, which is a marker for the fascist right.

The Soviets had a lovely constitution that enshrines personal liberty, and they studiously ignored it.

It's as if a group called themselves Buddhists, but insisted upon bowing to Mecca five times a day.

385 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:15:04pm

re: #370 chipbennett

Except that, it wasn't well-sourced.

The report's primary sources are the extremely biased Southern Poverty Law Center, and an FBI report on gang member infiltration in the military.

Umm...attacking the messenger when you can't refute the message is a 2500 year old Greek logical fallacy known as ad hominem.

386 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:18:48pm

re: #371 chipbennett

Yeah- because separationists aren't interested in chaos or disrupting the system.

[eye roll]

387 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:20:04pm

re: #373 chipbennett

As a member of that right wing, I resent the assertion that the right wing has been angered by the election of an African-American president.

The right wing is angered by, if anything, the election of one of the most radical left-wing presidents in history. Race has nothing to do with it.

Please stop labeling the right wing as racist.

Tribal ethnocentristic supremacy, hence racism, is a long-time identifying marker of right wing fascist extremism.

They can't feel good about themselves on their own merits, so they demonize other groups in order to feel superior to them.

Hitler is a prime example. And Hirohito is another.

388 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:20:09pm

re: #385 Salamantis

Umm...attacking the messenger when you can't refute the message is a 2500 year old Greek logical fallacy known as ad hominem.

And its use is a typical tactic of trolls. People with well-reasoned arguments don't need to attack the messenger.

389 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:21:43pm

re: #374 chipbennett

So they're racists. And their plot revolved not around a political ideology, but rather by their shared racism.

So can we dispense with the attempt to use these two wackos as examples of rightwing extremism, and just call them what they are: racist wackos?

You really think that given a choice between attending CPAC and an ANSWER rally that they would choose the latter?

390 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:24:29pm

re: #376 chipbennett

I'm having a hard time finding in the report: a) any specific examples of past "rightwing extremism" other than Timothy McVeigh, or b) any specific examples of impending "rightwing extremist" activity. Rather quite to the contrary, the report in multiple places indicates that it specifically has no evidence whatsoever that any "rightwing extremists" are planning any extremist activities.

(By the way, you're right in that the report doesn't indicate its sources. It's a common tactic of such reports when using SPLC as a primary source. I've linked both the SPLC "report" referenced, as well as the FBI gang activity report referenced - both thanks to PowerLine.)

And, I agree on your last point, wholeheartedly.

Here's someone they should have included:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

391 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:25:35pm

Extremists on either the left or right seek to disrupt the current, agreed upon system and replace that authority with their own. The current system is not so broken to warrant these solutions or validate considering them as meritorious for even a moment.

392 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:26:02pm

And I believe they DID include this guy:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

393 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:29:49pm

re: #391 Sharmuta

Extremists on either the left or right seek to disrupt the current, agreed upon system and replace that authority with their own. The current system is not so broken to warrant these solutions or validate considering them as meritorious for even a moment.

I have read both the Turner Diaries and William Pierce's second novel, Hunter, which specifically address such things. William Pierce, of course, was the founder of the National Alliance, an American right wing neonazi organization. Klan boss Don Black runs Stormfront. Then of course there's David Duke. And the Unabomber Manifesto, which I have also read, spent an entire chapter condemning leftism.

Know your enemies.

394 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:32:17pm

re: #393 Salamantis

I think you would likewise enjoy A Conflict of Visions.

395 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:34:55pm

re: #393 Salamantis

I have read both the Turner Diaries and William Pierce's second novel, Hunter, which specifically address such things. William Pierce, of course, was the founder of the National Alliance, an American right wing neonazi organization. Klan boss Don Black runs Stormfront. Then of course there's David Duke. And the Unabomber Manifesto, which I have also read, spent an entire chapter condemning leftism.

Know your enemies.

BTW, this is also why I have read Hitler, and Marx, and Engels, and Wahhab, and Qutb, and Bin Laden, and Zawahiri, among others.

396 jarheadlifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:38:02pm

re: #393 Salamantis

... And the Unabomber Manifesto, which I have also read, spent an entire chapter condemning leftism.

Know your enemies.

You had me right up until the time you said Unabomber. Kazcynski was too removed from reality or rational thought to be placed in any political camp or philosophy. Remember, he started bombing industries (and academics he saw as supporting industry) because he was a self-idealized ecological Robin Hood - a patently leftist position by today's, or yesterday's standard.

397 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:41:56pm

re: #396 jarheadlifer

You had me right up until the time you said Unabomber. Kazcynski was too removed from reality or rational thought to be placed in any political camp or philosophy. Remember, he started bombing industries (and academics he saw as supporting industry) because he was a self-idealized ecological Robin Hood - a patently leftist position by today's, or yesterday's standard.

Not really. He envisioned the US, and in fact the world, devolving into an amalgam of medievalist tribal groups. His identifying signature FC, was an acronym for Fuck Computers. He was a right-wing Luddite; the two are not mutually exclusive.

Oh, btw; I forgot to mention that I have also read Mao.

Know your enemies.

398 jarheadlifer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:49:10pm

re: #397 Salamantis

Not really. He envisioned the US, and in fact the world, devolving into an amalgam of medievalist tribal groups. His identifying signature FC, was an acronym for Fuck Computers. He was a right-wing Luddite; the two are not mutually exclusive.

Oh, btw; I forgot to mention that I have also read Mao.

Know your enemies.

The only Right Wing Luddites that immediately come to mind are the Amish - and I'm not really sure they could be labeled as right wing - they're clearly pacifists, hardly a right-wing position.

I have to say that your description still smacks of classic American leftism, too me. I've never heard Pat Robertson nor Pat Buchannan rail against computers - the internet perhaps, but never computers. Much of Kaczynski's craziness stemmed from a hyper-ecological position which is about as far removed from the American right wing as you can get.

399 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:43:43pm

re: #398 jarheadlifer

The only Right Wing Luddites that immediately come to mind are the Amish - and I'm not really sure they could be labeled as right wing - they're clearly pacifists, hardly a right-wing position.

I have to say that your description still smacks of classic American leftism, too me. I've never heard Pat Robertson nor Pat Buchannan rail against computers - the internet perhaps, but never computers. Much of Kaczynski's craziness stemmed from a hyper-ecological position which is about as far removed from the American right wing as you can get.

Wrong. Hitler was an ecologically conscious vegetarian.

There is no need for the right to be knee-jerk anti-environmentalist, any more than there is a need for them to be knee-jerk pro-science or pro-technology (see the creationist socons on this issue). Good conservatives conserve what is worth conserving, and change, hopefully for the better, what is not (see Edmund Burke). Beneficial technological advances are, in my opinion, worth conserving, including computers and the internet. But Ted Kaczynski did not view those particular technological advances as beneficial. He wanted to change all that - back to an era before they existed - and freeze us there. He was clearly a Luddite reactionary (right wing), as opposed to progressives (left wing), who embrace ALL change, even deleterious change (see Obama) for change's sake. Not all progress is good (I don't wanna see Clone Wars on earth) and not all reaction against it is bad. But what we are doing now debating these issues IS good, and those who would prevent us from ever doing it are, IMHO, not so good.

400 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:46:27pm

re: #398 jarheadlifer

It's the underlying assumptions both right and left extremists have in common. They arrive at far different conclusions, but the root mindset is highly similar.

401 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:24:25am

re: #399 Salamantis

Outstanding analysis, as per usual.

402 FabioC.  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:36:35am

Rightwing extremism in the USA is not a new phenomenon; I recall hearing about it at least since the Waco affair which happened in 1994.

This DHS report, whether leaked for political reasons or not, whether suspect in its timing or not, is at least shoddy intelligence. It is vague, generalistic and uses a definition of right-wing extremism that would easily encompass anyone who takes the Constitution literally, up to the Founding Fathers themselves.

Two juvenile racists with a murderous fantasy, more than a plan, are hardly proof of anything except that hateful, potentially violent, idiots exists. I guess it takes a whole governmental department to realize that, these days.

Conservatives are enraged by Obama? You bet: he is the antithesis of everything American conservatives should stand for.

403 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:33:30am

re: #379 MrPaulRevere

Nazi's very cynically used socialist rhetoric to appeal to voters, have you guys ever taken a class on modern German history? I have, and suggest you do. The notion that Nazism is somehow related to the Code Pinks or the Weather Undergrounds of the political spectrum is patently absurd.

And what right-wing ideology did the Nazis implement, particularly that which was counter to what they stated in their 25-point program?

The spoke, and ruled, as socialists.

404 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:34:37am

re: #382 MrPaulRevere

Jarhead, just say 'I reject authoritarianism and totalitarianism in all its forms and guises'. That works for me.

"Authoritarianism and totalitarianism" = left-wing ideology
Individual liberty = right-wing ideology

405 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:36:39am

re: #385 Salamantis

Umm...attacking the messenger when you can't refute the message is a 2500 year old Greek logical fallacy known as ad hominem.

So, you're claiming that SPLC are an un-biased, objective source?

The same SPLC who cherry pick data to write reports that push their leftist agenda?

Really?

The same SPLC who have designated the American Legion as a hate group?

Really?

406 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:37:50am

re: #388 Dark_Falcon

And its use is a typical tactic of trolls. People with well-reasoned arguments don't need to attack the messenger.

So, you, too, think that SPLC are an un-biased, objective source?

Oh, and do you also think that taking an FBI report completely out of context, and mis-construing its conclusions, constitutes good sourcing?

407 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:39:15am

re: #389 Salamantis

You really think that given a choice between attending CPAC and an ANSWER rally that they would choose the latter?

That's the whole point: they wouldn't have attended either.

And even if they had attended one, it still would have had nothing to do with their nutter plot, which was borne solely out of their racist beliefs.

408 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:41:08am

re: #391 Sharmuta

Extremists on either the left or right seek to disrupt the current, agreed upon system and replace that authority with their own. The current system is not so broken to warrant these solutions or validate considering them as meritorious for even a moment.

And as yet, no one has satisfactorily explained how an ideology that believes in smaller and less-intrusive government somehow, when carried out to its radical extreme, suddenly ends up with an all-powerful, authoritarian government.

409 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:45:49am

re: #399 Salamantis

Wrong. Hitler was an ecologically conscious vegetarian.

There is no need for the right to be knee-jerk anti-environmentalist, any more than there is a need for them to be knee-jerk pro-science or pro-technology (see the creationist socons on this issue). Good conservatives conserve what is worth conserving, and change, hopefully for the better, what is not (see Edmund Burke). Beneficial technological advances are, in my opinion, worth conserving, including computers and the internet. But Ted Kaczynski did not view those particular technological advances as beneficial. He wanted to change all that - back to an era before they existed - and freeze us there. He was clearly a Luddite reactionary (right wing), as opposed to progressives (left wing), who embrace ALL change, even deleterious change (see Obama) for change's sake. Not all progress is good (I don't wanna see Clone Wars on earth) and not all reaction against it is bad. But what we are doing now debating these issues IS good, and those who would prevent us from ever doing it are, IMHO, not so good.

Wow...

"conservatism = change is bad"
"progressivism = change is good"

How simplistic. (Oh, and only liberals who don't want to be identified as liberals call themselves "progressives".)

I seem to recall that it was the conservatives in this country that led to its greatest change: the abolition of slavery.

That's because a far better differentiation between conservatives and liberals is:

conservatism = less government, more individual control is good
liberalism = more government, less individual control is good

410 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:46:46am

re: #400 Sharmuta

It's the underlying assumptions both right and left extremists have in common. They arrive at far different conclusions, but the root mindset is highly similar.

And, pray tell, what are those underlying assumptions held in common by both right and left extremists?

411 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:57:27am

re: #397 Salamantis

Not really. He envisioned the US, and in fact the world, devolving into an amalgam of medievalist tribal groups. His identifying signature FC, was an acronym for Fuck Computers. He was a right-wing Luddite; the two are not mutually exclusive.

Oh, btw; I forgot to mention that I have also read Mao.

Know your enemies.

Why do you consider racism ("tribalism") and fear of technology to be defining characteristics of right-wing ideology?

412 Tantor  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:17:21am

Charles: "Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists.""

Neo-Nazis are not right wing extremists. Nazis, ie National Socialists, are left wing due to their platform and behavior, discussed at length in a previous thread. Neo-Nazis appear to be simply racists with a negligible and confused politics, if any. For example, when skinhead Nazis in Europe are questioned about the Nazi political program, they have no idea what it is. All they know is Hitler, swastikas, and the Holocaust. They are attracted by the evil reputation and racism of Nazism, hoping association with Nazism will cause people to fear and respect them.

It's worth remembering that racism is a common feature of the Left. The Soviets kept the many non-white members of their empire out of positions of power, calling them a racial epithet that translates as "black butts" but is equivalent to the N word here. Cuba likewise favors those of European descent, keeping brown and black people from positions of power and filling the jails with them. And, of course, the largest proportion of all those Ku Klux Klan members in the old South were Democrats.

Arguments that anyone who is racist is automatically right-wing springs from political prejudice, not the facts.

413 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:23:11am

re: #357 Slumbering Behemoth

Are you saying you do not think that that scum bag going on tv, and calling for his drones to clog the phone lines of an agency charged with protecting Americans from terrorist activity, is dangerous?

The DHS is not exactly protecting us with Janet Napolitano running the show. Also did he actually say clog the lines tr to call in and protest. There is a difference you know. All you lefties were putting down the DHS when Bush was president now it is sacrosanct.

414 Tantor  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:31:16am

Salamantis: "Wrong. Hitler was an ecologically conscious vegetarian."

Hitler was a socialist, not a right wing extremist. In fact, the Nazis faddish fascination with ecology, vegetarianism, and health cults are some of the many similarities between them and the modern Left.

Both Right and Left want change but approach it in different ways. The Right prefers change by increment, building on previous proven success. The Left tends to believe in revolutionary change, overthrowing everything before to replace it with something entirely new and untested.

For example, the French had a liberal revolution in which they overthrew the state and executed people gratuitously and frivolously en masse. The English had a conservative revolution in which the state was largely preserved and new rights and duties added. Blood did not fill the English streets.

Lenin famously held the French Revolution up as a model. Hitler clearly was pursuing the French model of overthrowing the government, changing it wholesale, and executing his enemies by the thousands either by diktat or by Soviet-style show trials.

415 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:31:53am

re: #408 chipbennett

Well- in the case of the radical paulians, it's not much more simple than what I've already stated. They see the current system as broken, and the way to get back to "smaller, less intrusive government" (in their minds) is to break the current contract (the Constitution) and re-establish it anew (which is meaningless, because it's an already broken contract with no authority). Instead of abiding by the democratically agreed system, they seek to replace our existing authority with their own. But we'll get back to that.

Additionally- this has a lot to do with nationalism. Clearly not left wing thinking, which is multi-cultural/international in its scope. When taken to its extremes, nationalism can lead to such things as genocide and secession (where have we heard that lately?).

Now, back to the Constitution-

Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint.

-The Federalist Papers

When We the People agreed to live under the Constitution, we conceded some of our rights to the government in exchange for limitation on government power to protect our remaining rights. It was a trade-off. The Constitution limits the power of government with internal checks and balances, and The Bill of Rights guarantees remaining powers that belong to the People.

It is those on the right who mistake individual rights and states' rights as trumping the right of the Federal government to also exist. They have that right because our forefathers granted that to them by ratifying the Constitution. So if you want to continue to delude yourself that radical/violent anti-Federal government ideology is not extreme right-wing thinking, knock yourself out.

416 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:41:22am

357 Slumbering Behemoth

When the Christian Right starts splodeydoping themselves at Trader Joe's, then I will start taking Pat Robertson seriously as a threat.

417 Kelis26  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:50:31am

re: #24 GlockNspell

we're seeing exactly what has taken place in Europe - the progressives in Europe brought "hope and change" which included a move towards more representation for MORE people, they reached out to immigrants and sought a more level playying field for ALL people - nomatter of ethnicity and such but then the euro neo-nazis and fascists and whitesupremacists tried to rise up to stop the movement of equality.

so now, in America, we have a President who is trying to end hundreds of years of racial strife, he's making a real try to change it so all Americans can live well and because he's being bold about it, the american neo-nazis and whitesupremacists of the Conservative side are coming out of the wood work - not just the plotters but we've seen it right here, the Becks, the Limbaughs, the DeMints, the Boehners, the Fred Thompsons, the Duncan Hunters, the Huckabees - all extremists wanting to stop americans of all races and economic sitations from having a better life

You know...a lot of people here have refuted you using logic and facts...

I choose instead to call you what you are.

A DUMBASS.

Because that idiotic diatribe full of non-deserved stereotypes basically leads us to one simple conclusion.

That you...ARE A DUMBASS.

418 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:52:19am

re: #414 Tantor

Both Right and Left want change but approach it in different ways. The Right prefers change by increment, building on previous proven success. The Left tends to believe in revolutionary change, overthrowing everything before to replace it with something entirely new and untested.

That is completely incorrect. It isn't the left-right dichotomy you're describing. The dichotomy you're describing is the constrained and unconstrained visions as described by Thomas Sowell in A Conflict of Visions.

While the constrained vision sees societal evolution coming about in increments with restrictions and incentives on power and societal behavior (and free-market economies); it is the unconstrained vision which seeks dramatic, revolutionary change to establish egalitarian societies they wish existed (usually run by elitists) and they tend to be socialist.

It should be noted, however, that Dr Sowell considers both fascism and marxism to be hybrids of these two visions, not properly fitting into either category for various reasons.

I'm not quite sure what part of the ron paul "revolution!" rhetoric isn't unconstrained. When they say that is what they want, I'm taking them at face value. They're not interested in reforming the current system, which while not perfect, is functional and still evolving. Imagine the disruption to our lives if these people got their crazy way.

I would also like to point out there are people of the constrained vision on the left, many we'd probably consider Reagan Democrats. The constrained-unconstrained visions don't follow the left-right dichotomy. While the right-left dichotomy of the unconstrained vision might arrive at different conclusions, it's their mindset and thought process which are similar.

419 Kelis26  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:52:50am

re: #411 chipbennett

Why do you consider racism ("tribalism") and fear of technology to be defining characteristics of right-wing ideology?

You're my new hero!

420 scottishbuzzsaw  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:55:36am

re: #418 Sharmuta

Excellent comment, and book. {Shar}

421 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:12:05am

re: #418 Sharmuta

While the right-left dichotomy of the unconstrained vision might arrive at different conclusions, it's their mindset and thought process which are similar.

To elaborate just a bit more- it's that the left and right of the unconstrained vision may have similar solutions (the common enemy is the established government or economic structure) while the reasons why may be for various traditional right or left wing thinking.

The unconstrained looks for a radical shift in the status quo to better humanity, while the constrained vision accepts the limitations on human nature and see the status quo as an evolving process where societal improvements come about gradually.

422 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:46:43am

re: #421 Sharmuta


The unconstrained looks for a radical shift in the status quo to better humanity, while the constrained vision accepts the limitations on human nature and see the status quo as an evolving process where societal improvements come about gradually.

Where did you get that from?

423 Joel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:47:33am

Oops I did not see it - Thomas Sowell. Sorry.

424 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:07:06pm

re: #403 chipbennett

And what right-wing ideology did the Nazis implement, particularly that which was counter to what they stated in their 25-point program?

The spoke, and ruled, as socialists.

The ethnocentric tribal ideology of attempting to eliminate races which were not of the Aryan Volk.

425 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:09:30pm

re: #404 chipbennett

"Authoritarianism and totalitarianism" = left-wing ideology
Individual liberty = right-wing ideology

Nope.

Fascism - extreme right wing collectivism.

Communism - extreme left-wing collectivism.

Anarchism - extreme individualism.

Constitutional democracy - the sensible moderate center.

426 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:12:45pm

re: #405 chipbennett

So, you're claiming that SPLC are an un-biased, objective source?

The same SPLC who cherry pick data to write reports that push their leftist agenda?

Really?

The same SPLC who have designated the American Legion as a hate group?

Really?

I would claim that the information has to be objectively evaluated without regard to its source, or whatever else the source has purveyed.

2 + 2 equals 4 even if Hitler agrees.

2 + 2 does not = 5 even if Winston Churchill claims that it does.

427 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:20:19pm

re: #409 chipbennett

Wow...

"conservatism = change is bad"
"progressivism = change is good"

How simplistic. (Oh, and only liberals who don't want to be identified as liberals call themselves "progressives".)

Not what I said - and I quote: "Good conservatives conserve what is worth conserving, and change, hopefully for the better, what is not (see Edmund Burke)."

"...as opposed to progressives (left wing), who embrace ALL change, even deleterious change (see Obama) for change's sake."

But nice try at putting your words in my mouth since you can't successfully refute my own.

I seem to recall that it was the conservatives in this country that led to its greatest change: the abolition of slavery.

That's because a far better differentiation between conservatives and liberals is:

conservatism = less government, more individual control is good
liberalism = more government, less individual control is good

No, those are the definitions of individualism and collectivism.

Many socons want more government and less individual control of peoples' private decisions (abortion, homosexuality, etc.), while many liberals want less government and more individual control of such things.

428 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:24:13pm

re: #411 chipbennett

Why do you consider racism ("tribalism") and fear of technology to be defining characteristics of right-wing ideology?

Tribalism vs. universality was what distinguished the Right-Hegelians, from whom fascism arose, from the Left-Hegelians, from whom communism arose.

Both the right and the left can fear technology (see stem cells, nuclear power). And both of them can embrace it (see the internet).

429 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:26:21pm

re: #414 Tantor

Salamantis: "Wrong. Hitler was an ecologically conscious vegetarian."

Hitler was a socialist, not a right wing extremist. In fact, the Nazis faddish fascination with ecology, vegetarianism, and health cults are some of the many similarities between them and the modern Left.

Both Right and Left want change but approach it in different ways. The Right prefers change by increment, building on previous proven success. The Left tends to believe in revolutionary change, overthrowing everything before to replace it with something entirely new and untested.

For example, the French had a liberal revolution in which they overthrew the state and executed people gratuitously and frivolously en masse. The English had a conservative revolution in which the state was largely preserved and new rights and duties added. Blood did not fill the English streets.

Lenin famously held the French Revolution up as a model. Hitler clearly was pursuing the French model of overthrowing the government, changing it wholesale, and executing his enemies by the thousands either by diktat or by Soviet-style show trials.

re: #412 Tantor

Charles: "Any second now someone will pop up to say neo-Nazis aren't "right wing extremists.""

Neo-Nazis are not right wing extremists. Nazis, ie National Socialists, are left wing due to their platform and behavior, discussed at length in a previous thread. Neo-Nazis appear to be simply racists with a negligible and confused politics, if any. For example, when skinhead Nazis in Europe are questioned about the Nazi political program, they have no idea what it is. All they know is Hitler, swastikas, and the Holocaust. They are attracted by the evil reputation and racism of Nazism, hoping association with Nazism will cause people to fear and respect them.

It's worth remembering that racism is a common feature of the Left. The Soviets kept the many non-white members of their empire out of positions of power, calling them a racial epithet that translates as "black butts" but is equivalent to the N word here. Cuba likewise favors those of European descent, keeping brown and black people from positions of power and filling the jails with them. And, of course, the largest proportion of all those Ku Klux Klan members in the old South were Democrats.

Arguments that anyone who is racist is automatically right-wing springs from political prejudice, not the facts.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

430 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:30:18pm

re: #419 Kelis26

You're my new hero!

Kelis26

Karma: -2
Registered since: Mar 20, 2009 at 12:35 pm

No. of comments posted: 6
No. of links posted: 0

What isn't new to you here?

431 Semi  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:07:59pm

Duck tape? What the hell are white supremacists taping ducks together for?

432 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:32:01pm

re: #415 Sharmuta

Well- in the case of the radical paulians, it's not much more simple than what I've already stated. They see the current system as broken, and the way to get back to "smaller, less intrusive government" (in their minds) is to break the current contract (the Constitution) and re-establish it anew (which is meaningless, because it's an already broken contract with no authority). Instead of abiding by the democratically agreed system, they seek to replace our existing authority with their own. But we'll get back to that.

Have you considered that there is a reason that the mainstream right reject and repudiate most of Ron Paul's rhetoric? That reason is that such talk of revolution doesn't conform to our ideology.

Additionally- this has a lot to do with nationalism. Clearly not left wing thinking, which is multi-cultural/international in its scope. When taken to its extremes, nationalism can lead to such things as genocide and secession (where have we heard that lately?).

Internationalism versus nationalism (or, perhaps more accurately, isolationism) is not an accurate description of the left-right spectrum. Also, as has been pointed out, plenty of left-wing extremist governments have been anything but "multi-cultural". (Nor were the majority-Democrat KKK.)

Now, back to the Constitution-

When We the People agreed to live under the Constitution, we conceded some of our rights to the government in exchange for limitation on government power to protect our remaining rights. It was a trade-off. The Constitution limits the power of government with internal checks and balances, and The Bill of Rights guarantees remaining powers that belong to the People.

It is those on the right who mistake individual rights and states' rights as trumping the right of the Federal government to also exist. They have that right because our forefathers granted that to them by ratifying the Constitution. So if you want to continue to delude yourself that radical/violent anti-Federal government ideology is not extreme right-wing thinking, knock yourself out.

"Those on the right" do not "mistake individual rights and states' rights as trumping the right of the Federal government to also exist".

We understand the Constitution. The federal government is important and necessary. To say that the federal government has also grossly over-stepped its bounds and authority in no way refutes this understanding.

433 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:37:52pm

re: #424 Salamantis

The ethnocentric tribal ideology of attempting to eliminate races which were not of the Aryan Volk.

First, that ideology is not counter to the tenets of the 25-point program, which was extremely ethnocentric.

Second, how does an "ideology of attempting to eliminate races which were not of the Aryan Volk" constitute right-wing ideology.

Again, please refrain from conflating racism with right-wing ideology in your answer.

434 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:39:31pm

re: #425 Salamantis

Nope.

Fascism - extreme right wing collectivism.

Communism - extreme left-wing collectivism.

Anarchism - extreme individualism.

Constitutional democracy - the sensible moderate center.

The only place "right wing collectivism" exists is in the clouded minds of the left.

We on the right reject the concept of collectivism.

And remember: we have the right to define our ideology.

435 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:44:12pm

re: #426 Salamantis

I would claim that the information has to be objectively evaluated without regard to its source, or whatever else the source has purveyed.

2 + 2 equals 4 even if Hitler agrees.

2 + 2 does not = 5 even if Winston Churchill claims that it does.

And an objective analysis of that information clearly shows that SPLC misconstrued the underlying data.

SPLC claimed that anti-Hispanic violence increased significantly during a five-year period, and attributed that rise to right-wing hate groups.

In reality, SPLC picked an outlying low data point as their starting point, and failed to account for population increase during the time period - accounting for which shows that such violence actually dropped by around 40%. Similarly, the SPLC report failed to account for gang-related violence, which not only isn't "right wing", but also accounts for the vast majority of anti-Hispanic violence.

436 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:41:49pm

re: #433 chipbennett

First, that ideology is not counter to the tenets of the 25-point program, which was extremely ethnocentric.

Second, how does an "ideology of attempting to eliminate races which were not of the Aryan Volk" constitute right-wing ideology.

Again, please refrain from conflating racism with right-wing ideology in your answer.

Sorry, but the Right-Hegelian doctrine of ethnocentric tribalism from which Fascism originally sprung is itself inherently racist and supremacist, considering other tribes to be intrinsically racially inferior. And this factor distinguishes it from the more universalist Left-Hegelianism from which Communism originally sprung, in a direct line through Feuerback to Marx.

So OF COURSE The 25-point program was extremely ethnocentric; that fact is logically entailed by what it ws a 25 point plan OF.

That's just the way it is. No matter how much you don't like it. It ain't conflation when they really are joined at the conceptual hip.

437 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:49:40pm

re: #434 chipbennett

The only place "right wing collectivism" exists is in the clouded minds of the left.

We on the right reject the concept of collectivism.

And remember: we have the right to define our ideology.

It existed in Germany, in Italy, in Japan, and more recently in Serbia.

Perhaps you misconstrue your own ideology, and it is in fact more libertarian than it is conservative. They tend to trend more individualist, although they don't embrace the extremes of anarchism (Big-L Libertarians actually come closer to anarchism than do small-l libertarians - which is why so many small-l libertarians dismiss Big-L Libertarians as anti-all-government wackjobs.).

I approve of smaller government, as long as it remains large enough to perform its essential functions. But many Paulian wackjobs would even try to farm out our national defence via letters of marque, without explaining how they would pay them off, since many of them also wanna abolish all taxes.

438 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:54:32pm

re: #435 chipbennett

And an objective analysis of that information clearly shows that SPLC misconstrued the underlying data.

SPLC claimed that anti-Hispanic violence increased significantly during a five-year period, and attributed that rise to right-wing hate groups.

In reality, SPLC picked an outlying low data point as their starting point, and failed to account for population increase during the time period - accounting for which shows that such violence actually dropped by around 40%. Similarly, the SPLC report failed to account for gang-related violence, which not only isn't "right wing", but also accounts for the vast majority of anti-Hispanic violence.

And just what exactly does that have to do with watching out for organizations like Stormfront and the National Alliance trying to recruit the small percentage of US military veterans who might have become disaffected?

Once again, you cannot legitimately impugn statement A by attacking statement B. It's just another version of an ad hominem attack on the messenger, by attacking another message, rather than the message at issue.

439 JeremyR  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:14:44pm

re: #294 calcajun

Please-- tell it. Make some more heads go "pop".

If for no other reason alone, Ron Paul should be shunned by calling for a return to the gold standard. If you want to see Weimar Republic-like inflation right now--then that is the surest way to bring it about.

Not true. The inflation in the Weimar Republic happened because they abandoned the gold standard. Our present system allows for the printing of currency above and beyond. The papiermark was their version of our federal reserve note.
And no, I am not a Ron Paul supporter.

440 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:23:33pm

re: #436 Salamantis

Sorry, but the Right-Hegelian doctrine of ethnocentric tribalism from which Fascism originally sprung is itself inherently racist and supremacist, considering other tribes to be intrinsically racially inferior. And this factor distinguishes it from the more universalist Left-Hegelianism from which Communism originally sprung, in a direct line through Feuerback to Marx.

So OF COURSE The 25-point program was extremely ethnocentric; that fact is logically entailed by what it ws a 25 point plan OF.

That's just the way it is. No matter how much you don't like it. It ain't conflation when they really are joined at the conceptual hip.

You keep going back to Hagel.

Hagel has nothing to do with American right-wing ideology.

Likewise, racism has nothing to do with American right-wing ideology.

441 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:26:47pm

re: #437 Salamantis

It existed in Germany, in Italy, in Japan, and more recently in Serbia.

Perhaps you misconstrue your own ideology, and it is in fact more libertarian than it is conservative. They tend to trend more individualist, although they don't embrace the extremes of anarchism (Big-L Libertarians actually come closer to anarchism than do small-l libertarians - which is why so many small-l libertarians dismiss Big-L Libertarians as anti-all-government wackjobs.).

I approve of smaller government, as long as it remains large enough to perform its essential functions. But many Paulian wackjobs would even try to farm out our national defence via letters of marque, without explaining how they would pay them off, since many of them also wanna abolish all taxes.

Again, the landscape is American right-wing ideology. Remember: all this discussion started out of the DHS report on right-wing extremism in this country, not Italy, Germany, Japan, or Serbia.

And again, to American right-wing ideologues, Left-Hagelian and Right-Hagelian both constitute left-wing ideology.

442 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:34:11pm

re: #438 Salamantis

And just what exactly does that have to do with watching out for organizations like Stormfront and the National Alliance trying to recruit the small percentage of US military veterans who might have become disaffected?

Once again, you cannot legitimately impugn statement A by attacking statement B. It's just another version of an ad hominem attack on the messenger, by attacking another message, rather than the message at issue.

Perchance maybe you should read the report first, before you accuse me of more ad hominem. I'm not attacking "another message", I'm attacking the message.

The report cites this very report (though not by name, but rather as coming from a "prominent civil rights group"), in an attempt to use it as supporting evidence that "rightwing extremists" are attempting to infiltrate the military, in order to learn the arts of violence.

Come on; it's clearly obvious from your previous discourse that you're far too intelligent to fling allegations from a position of ignorance. Why do so here?

443 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:36:18pm

re: #440 chipbennett

You keep going back to Hagel.

Hagel has nothing to do with American right-wing ideology.

Likewise, racism has nothing to do with American right-wing ideology.

ALL rightwing (and left-wing) ideology originated in Hegel's thought; American right-wing ideology is a subset of that.

And the right-wing extremists at Stormfront and National Alliance, among other sites, are open and unabashed racists.

444 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:40:44pm

re: #441 chipbennett

Again, the landscape is American right-wing ideology. Remember: all this discussion started out of the DHS report on right-wing extremism in this country, not Italy, Germany, Japan, or Serbia.

And again, to American right-wing ideologues, Left-Hagelian and Right-Hagelian both constitute left-wing ideology.

Nope. Openly racist right-wing extremists at National Alliance and Stormfront proudly consider themselves to be the ideological heirs of Hitler. They wouldn't do so if they considered Hitler to be a leftist, because they despise leftism in general, and communism in particular. And they also proudly proclaim themselves to be radical right wingers, and freely admit that racism is an essential keystone component of their ideology.

445 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:46:20pm

re: #442 chipbennett

Perchance maybe you should read the report first, before you accuse me of more ad hominem. I'm not attacking "another message", I'm attacking the message.

The report cites this very report (though not by name, but rather as coming from a "prominent civil rights group"), in an attempt to use it as supporting evidence that "rightwing extremists" are attempting to infiltrate the military, in order to learn the arts of violence.

Come on; it's clearly obvious from your previous discourse that you're far too intelligent to fling allegations from a position of ignorance. Why do so here?

In fact, there are already several former US military personnel who are presently members of these radical right wing racist groups. This is unfortunate; what would be even more unfortunate would be for them to succeed in recruiting more. Who knows how many of their nonmilitary radical brethren they have trained in the killing arts?

The problem will only grow if it is ignored; I, for one, am glad that they are keeping an eye on it, and trying to minimize successful recruitment by educating US military members about these groups.

446 chipbennett  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 5:26:17am

re: #445 Salamantis

In fact, there are already several former US military personnel who are presently members of these radical right wing racist groups. This is unfortunate; what would be even more unfortunate would be for them to succeed in recruiting more. Who knows how many of their nonmilitary radical brethren they have trained in the killing arts?

The problem will only grow if it is ignored; I, for one, am glad that they are keeping an eye on it, and trying to minimize successful recruitment by educating US military members about these groups.

You make two unsubstantiated claims here:

1) There are "several" former US military personnel who are presently members of these radical "right wing" racist groups, and,

2) The problem will only grow if ignored.

Here's the reality of the situation:


So, how many are "some"? You can read the FBI report, titled "White Supremacist Recruitment of Military Personnel since 9/11," here. Notwithstanding the deliberate vagueness of the Homeland Security document, the FBI was actually very specific:


A review of FBI white supremacist extremist cases from October 2001 to May 2008 identified 203 individuals with confirmed or claimed military service active in the extremist movement at some time during the reporting period. This number is minuscule in comparison with the projected US veteran population of 23,816,000 as of 2 May 2008, or the 1,416,037 active duty military personnel as of 30 April 2008. ...

According to FBI information, an estimated 19 veterans (approximately 9 percent of the 203) have verified or unverified service in the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There you have it: a whopping 19 actual or alleged veterans of Iraq or Afghanistan have joined the "extremist movement." (The FBI notes that some of these "may have inflated their resumes with fictional military experience to impress others within the movement.")

So, to counter your two claims:

1) Only 203 out of 23,816,000 veterans have been identified as belonging to such extremist groups, and

2) Only 19 recent (i.e. Iraq/Afghanistan) veterans have been thus identified.

In other words, 1 out of every 100,000 veterans is a member of such groups. Compared to the US population at-large, it would appear that the percentage of veterans in such groups is far lower than percentage of adult Americans as a whole.

The FBI report indicates neither a past/present concern, nor an increasing trend.

Why should our returning veterans need to be "educated" about such groups? They have proven themselves not to be particularly susceptible to recruitment - and in fact, less susceptible.

447 chipbennett  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 5:28:17am

re: #443 Salamantis

ALL rightwing (and left-wing) ideology originated in Hegel's thought; American right-wing ideology is a subset of that.

And the right-wing extremists at Stormfront and National Alliance, among other sites, are open and unabashed racists.

Uh, no. American right-wing ideology rejects collectivism. Why do we still seem to be stuck on this point?

And why do you continue to ignore the socialist rhetoric of such groups as National Alliance and Stormfront?

448 chipbennett  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 5:29:37am

re: #444 Salamantis

Nope. Openly racist right-wing extremists at National Alliance and Stormfront proudly consider themselves to be the ideological heirs of Hitler. They wouldn't do so if they considered Hitler to be a leftist, because they despise leftism in general, and communism in particular. And they also proudly proclaim themselves to be radical right wingers, and freely admit that racism is an essential keystone component of their ideology.

To the American right-wing ideology, socialism and communism (and fascism, for that matter) are all cut from the same cloth - a cloth that is far to the left of American right-wing ideology.

449 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 9:31:49pm

re: #446 chipbennett

You make two unsubstantiated claims here:

1) There are "several" former US military personnel who are presently members of these radical "right wing" racist groups, and,

2) The problem will only grow if ignored.

So, to counter your two claims:

1) Only 203 out of 23,816,000 veterans have been identified as belonging to such extremist groups, and

2) Only 19 recent (i.e. Iraq/Afghanistan) veterans have been thus identified.

In other words, 1 out of every 100,000 veterans is a member of such groups. Compared to the US population at-large, it would appear that the percentage of veterans in such groups is far lower than percentage of adult Americans as a whole.

The FBI report indicates neither a past/present concern, nor an increasing trend.

Why should our returning veterans need to be "educated" about such groups? They have proven themselves not to be particularly susceptible to recruitment - and in fact, less susceptible.

Well, 203 would seem to be quite a few more than several, so my claim was not only substantiated by you, you have revealed that it was understated. And it is GOOD that military veterans ar less susceptible to extreme racist right wing recruitment than are the rest of the US citizenry, since their military expertise renders them much more effective force multipliers than members of the general population, both directly, and indirectly, via military instruction of nonveteran members of such groups.

We should applaud military awareness efforts designed to keep the far racist right's recruitment percentage of our past and present military personnel as low as possible.

450 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 9:36:12pm

re: #447 chipbennett

Uh, no. American right-wing ideology rejects collectivism. Why do we still seem to be stuck on this point?

And why do you continue to ignore the socialist rhetoric of such groups as National Alliance and Stormfront?

My point is that National Alliance and Stormfront ARE indeed BOTH radical racist right wing AND collectivist, just as Baader-Meinhoff and the Red Brigades were BOTH radical left wing AND collectivist; as I have stated before; fascism and communism are two differing strains of collectivism, differing in racist ethnocentric tribal nationalism vs. universalism.

451 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 9:41:26pm

re: #448 chipbennett

To the American right-wing ideology, socialism and communism (and fascism, for that matter) are all cut from the same cloth - a cloth that is far to the left of American right-wing ideology.

No, that would be anarchists, which are not known for forming collective organisations such as Stormfront and National Alliance and the KKK, like the radical racist far right do. And the anarchists' position opposing both communism and fascism is based upon their inhabiting the opposite end of the collectivist-individualist spectrum, not because they are positioned somewhere in particular on the communist-fascist spectrum (there are both right-wing and left-wing anarchists).

452 chipbennett  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:58:30pm

re: #449 Salamantis

Well, 203 would seem to be quite a few more than several, so my claim was not only substantiated by you, you have revealed that it was understated.

203 out of 26 million is certainly by no means "several". As I stated, it is 1 out of every 100,000. As has been stated by another commenter, this number is better stated as insignificant.

And it is GOOD that military veterans ar less susceptible to extreme racist right wing recruitment than are the rest of the US citizenry, since their military expertise renders them much more effective force multipliers than members of the general population, both directly, and indirectly, via military instruction of nonveteran members of such groups.

So, if US military veterans are less susceptible to extremist recruitment, then why do they need to be called out as potentially susceptible to such recruitment in the DHS report?

We should applaud military awareness efforts designed to keep the far racist right's recruitment percentage of our past and present military personnel as low as possible.

Interestingly, there are no such formal "awareness efforts."

I would posit that military veterans are less susceptible to extremist recruitment because they truly are our best and brightest.

453 Salamantis  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:54:53pm

re: #452 chipbennett

203 out of 26 million is certainly by no means "several". As I stated, it is 1 out of every 100,000. As has been stated by another commenter, this number is better stated as insignificant.

You're right; 'several' would be less than a couple of hundred:

several(a): (used with count nouns) of an indefinite number more than 2 or 3 but not many; "several letters came in the mail"; "several people were injured in the accident".

Your argument is now with the dictionary.

So, if US military veterans are less susceptible to extremist recruitment, then why do they need to be called out as potentially susceptible to such recruitment in the DHS report?

Because, as I mentioned in a recent post, the military training of military personnel renders them strong force multipliers, both directly and indirectly (via training civilian extremists in military strategies and tactics). And this is also why extremist groups specifically seek them out and recruit them more vigorously than they do civlians. Thus, special care must be taken to forfend against their recruitment by such organizations.

Interestingly, there are no such formal "awareness efforts."

It is now brough up to every boot camp class, and applicants to join our armed forces are screened for pre-existing extremist ties before they are accepted for induction.

I would posit that military veterans are less susceptible to extremist recruitment because they truly are our best and brightest.

Even the barrel containing our shiniest apples can harbor a few with rotten spots. And those few, even though fewer than in other barrels, can still, due to their military training, perpetrate much greater damage than can a greater number/percentage of untrained civilians. Some of the most horrendous terror attacks (Oklahoma City) and assassinations (Dallas) in US history have been perpetrated by US military veterans.

454 chipbennett  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 4:39:46pm

re: #453 Salamantis

You're right; 'several' would be less than a couple of hundred:

several(a): (used with count nouns) of an indefinite number more than 2 or 3 but not many; "several letters came in the mail"; "several people were injured in the accident".

Your argument is now with the dictionary.

If you refuse to consider scale and orders of magnitude, then I will refuse to argue semantics.

Because, as I mentioned in a recent post, the military training of military personnel renders them strong force multipliers, both directly and indirectly (via training civilian extremists in military strategies and tactics). And this is also why extremist groups specifically seek them out and recruit them more vigorously than they do civlians. Thus, special care must be taken to forfend against their recruitment by such organizations.

This statement places all the emphasis on the extremist-recruitment side of the equation, and ignores the veteran-resistance side of the equation. Veterans have shown themselves to be inherently and historically resistant to recruitment by extremist groups.

It is now brough[t] up to every boot camp class, and applicants to join our armed forces are screened for pre-existing extremist ties before they are accepted for induction.

I wouldn't consider "bring it up" in a boot camp class to constitute a "formal awareness" program. Further, pre-enlistment screening - while important, and probably the most critical part of the whole process - also is not a "formal awareness" program.

Even the barrel containing our shiniest apples can harbor a few with rotten spots. And those few, even though fewer than in other barrels, can still, due to their military training, perpetrate much greater damage than can a greater number/percentage of untrained civilians. Some of the most horrendous terror attacks (Oklahoma City) and assassinations (Dallas) in US history have been perpetrated by US military veterans.

The US Army didn't teach Timothy McVeigh the skills he used to commit his heinous act of terror. Thus, I don't see how he supports your argument.

As for Oswald, what percentage of men his age weren't veterans?


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