Discovery Institute’s Klinghoffer: ‘Darwin’s Tree of Death’

Science • Views: 2,575

I may have jumped the gun when I pronounced the ICR’s suit against Texas the “ludicrous creationist news of the day.”

Because Discovery Institute “senior fellow” David Klinghoffer’s latest article is so insanely over the top, it seems like a parody.

But it’s not.

Slouching Toward Columbine: Darwin’s Tree of Death.

The image, and today’s gruesome Columbine anniversary, provide an occasion to reflect on Darwinian evolution’s social consequences, from school shootings to Nazi racism and more.

Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution with its Tree of Life is applauded by most sophisticated Americans and Europeans as a scientific idea pure and simple, without the aura of dread and terror that, properly, should surround it in our minds.

Good. Freaking. Grief.

Jump to bottom

680 comments
1 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:23:56pm

Learning proper biology science and evolution has caused me to have a deeper appreciation for life, not less.

2 Shug  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:24:26pm

It's not nice to make fun of the insane.

Ok, just this one time

3 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:24:49pm

Discovery Institute ate the fruit of the Tree of Stupid.

4 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:24:54pm

Topical blogging, picking a historic and tragic event to state once again it's all Darwin's fault...

/ wot an ideeeott.................

5 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:25:27pm
6 Shug  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:25:42pm

Eric Harris wore a t-shirt that said NATURAL SELECTION.

There see.....proof!


/

7 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:25:47pm

To repost what I said about this on the last thread:

Bad, crazy, sick. Claiming that Darwin's scientific work lead to two monsters opening fire in a school is Bark-At-The-Moon-Crazy.

8 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:26:20pm

Dread and terror!

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, Darwin comes to take you away

9 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:26:27pm

re: #3 Dar ul Harb

Discovery Institute ate the fruit of the Tree of Stupid.

No. They fell out of the top of the Tree of Stupid and hit every single branch on the way to the ground!

10 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:26:52pm

re: #5 buzzsawmonkey

Speaking of natural selection, where's the dessert cart?

Right here! (Dark_Falcon smacks buzzsawmonkey in the face with a banana cream pie.)

11 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:27:01pm

Oh, ah, my goodness. Where does one start?

Darwin rose from his grave and convinced Harris and Klebold to shoot up Columbine High School?!

12 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:27:02pm

Here's an excerpt from the mad man.

On and/or because of Darwin:

This widespread failure to distinguish between people and animals is a moral disease we may call animalism!

Both the elite and mass media are rife with it!

When New York governor Eliot Spitzer was disgraced and forced out of office by a 2008 prostitution scandal, New York Times science reporter Natalie Angier leapt into the fray of the controversy with an article pointing out in detail how common adultery and even sex-for-hire are in the animal kingdom!

That's just a small portion of his twisted thought process.

Darwin caused Eliot Spitzer to cheat on his wife with a prostitute! //

13 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:27:15pm

re: #5 buzzsawmonkey

Speaking of natural selection, where's the dessert cart?

Where are you..... a Hospital?

14 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:27:18pm

re: #9 Truck Monkey

No. They fell out of the top of the Tree of Stupid and hit every single branch on the way to the ground!

ROTFLMAO!

15 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:27:31pm
16 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:27:45pm

re: #12 Gus 802

Here I was blaming Alfred E. Neuman.

17 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:15pm

re: #4 Thanos

Topical blogging, picking a historic and tragic event to state once again it's all Darwin's fault...

/ wot an ideeeott.................

Not just an idiot, but an evil one.

I won't deny that Columbine is an interesting template, and it's fascinating to see what people bring to it, but this is wrong.

18 sattv4u2  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:16pm

With my sincere apologies to apples,,,
BUT,,

The Stupid doesn't fall far from the tree!

19 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:30pm

David Klinghoffer is batshit crazy. He is the Neturei Karta of creationism.

20 Bloodnok  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:49pm

I would say that David Klinghoffer has stooped to a new low. But instead I'll just say that he's the only senior fellow at the DI who can walk under a piano stool.

21 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:49pm

Don't drink and derive!

22 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:53pm

Science emanates "dread and terror"? Hoo boy. I take it that Klinghoffer is insecure in his faith.

23 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:55pm

re: #16 jaunte

Here I was blaming Alfred E. Neuman.

Nope. Darwin! Well, him and Frank Zappa and other rock lyricists. //

24 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:28:55pm

DHS = Darwin Homeland Security

25 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:30:08pm

It's disgusting to see evolution warped like this. The social consequences the DI claims here is utter hooey. What evolution has done though is to show the commonality of man- regardless of race or class- biologically, we're equals. Funny how they never want to speak about that aspect of evolutions societal impact- just the stuff they're lying about.

26 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:30:31pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

DHS = Darwin Homeland Security

Oh, no. Don't!

27 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:30:33pm
Good. Freaking. Grief.

GAAAAAAH!
*BARF*

/ in other words ... ditto

28 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:30:41pm

This guy should be a speech writer for Pat Robertson.

29 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:31:07pm

re: #28 Gus 802

This guy should be a speech screech writer for Pat Robertson.

FTFY

30 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:31:10pm

re: #28 Gus 802

This guy should be a speech writer for Pat Robertson.

When PR is on his meds, or off them?

31 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:31:11pm
32 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:31:53pm

re: #31 buzzsawmonkey

Given the way some people blame Darwin for societal ills long after he's cold in his grave, I can see we'll be dealing with BDS for the rest of my lifetime.

Remember Ted Rall's article when Reagan died?

33 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:31:56pm

re: #30 Dianna

When PR is on his meds, or off them?

Either one should do. As long as he can use his vocal chords.

34 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:32:12pm

Meltdown #138 downstairs!

35 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:32:18pm
36 Unakite  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:32:29pm

re: #8 jaunte

Dread and terror!

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, Darwin comes to take you away

Buffalo Springield. :)

37 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:32:38pm

As if producing Hitler weren't enough, now Darwin has to go producing school rampage shootings in modern America. Stupid Darwin!

/

38 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:32:58pm

re: #31 buzzsawmonkey

Given the way some people blame Darwin for societal ills long after he's cold in his grave, I can see we'll be dealing with BDS for the rest of my lifetime.

Yep, Bush will be blamed for events that happen 20 years from now. The loony left hates him that much.

39 Unakite  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:33:05pm

re: #36 Unakite

Buffalo Springield. :)

Buffalo Springfield. :(

PIMF

40 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:33:10pm

So a murderous rampage is "natural selection?"

Lot's of folks need to brush up on terminology. From what theory means to natural selection and many others.

41 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:33:17pm

re: #35 buzzsawmonkey

No, but I'm sure it was vile.

It was. Completely vile, and over the top.

I wasn't - as I'm sure I've stated - Reagan's biggest fan, but I was pretty offended and horrified.

42 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:33:30pm

re: #31 buzzsawmonkey

It's DDS - Darwin Derangement Syndrome, and we've been experiencing it for pretty much the last century. BDS is a passing fad by comparison.

43 Summer Seale  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:34:02pm

I can see the new Creationist bumper stickers now:

"Remember, everyone, guns don't kill people...Darwin kills people."

(BTW, I'm not anti-gun =) )

44 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:34:28pm

re: #42 lawhawk

It's DDS - Darwin Derangement Syndrome, and we've been experiencing it for pretty much the last century. BDS is a passing fad by comparison.

So those creationists are not really dentists after all.

45 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:34:29pm

Folks. There's a new danger in society today and we're not talking the Imperial Japanese Navy. Instead, this danger is far more sinister than anything that his bombed our shores. This threat is in our schools and his name is...

Charles Darwin!

///

46 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:34:31pm

re: #32 Dianna

Remember Ted Rall's article when Reagan died?

I shudder to ask...

47 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:34:32pm

Check out the graphic linked in comments:

Image: z108068265.jpg

48 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:34:32pm

Ben Stein gives Klinghoffer two big thumbs up!

49 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:35:36pm

re: #44 Alouette

So those creationists are not really dentists after all.

You're just going to have to drill that home, aren't you.

50 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:36:16pm

re: #47 Thanos

Check out the graphic linked in comments:

[Link: img407.imageshack.us...]

Jesus said, "suffer all the little dinosaurs to come to me."
NCB (New Creationists Bible)

51 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:36:48pm

re: #36 Unakite

We try to use every part of the Buffalo here.

52 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:36:56pm

These idiots think Darwin's work is to be dreaded because they think it can override the Work Of God -- i.e. because it's the Work Of The Devil.

All I have to say is, their "god" is pretty danged small.

/either that, or the "Devil" is something of an obsession with them

53 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:37:29pm

re: #44 Alouette

There's a new reply to you at the bottom of last thread.

54 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:37:37pm

re: #46 Occasional Reader

I shudder to ask...

I think I can find it, if you insist, but I don't think you really want to read it.

55 MPH  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:38:31pm

In reading all those disgruntled ex-lgfers who lament all the posts exposing creationist insanity -- you'd probably be saying "shush" too if you believed the earth was 6000 years old and then saw your compatriots discrediting themselves (and your beliefs in the process).

56 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:38:35pm

re: #52 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It does simplify the problem of evil if you can point at something undesirable and say "Darwinism did it." No more thought required.

57 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:38:57pm

re: #52 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I keep thinking of Increase Mather, asking one of his parishioners, rather acidly, if there was no God in Boston, that he needed to go enquire of the Devil in Salem.

58 MPH  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:39:53pm

re: #47 Thanos

Check out the graphic linked in comments:

[Link: img407.imageshack.us...]

I can't stop chuckling at that one...big grin...

59 Danny  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:40:02pm

How's that saying go?...Something about the 'shallow end of the gene pool?'

60 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:40:15pm
61 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:40:54pm

re: #58 MPH

I can't stop chuckling at that one...big grin...

It's kind of cute, too.

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:40:55pm

re: #47 Thanos

Ha!

63 Aye Pod  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:41:18pm

Everything was fine, fine....then Darwin had to come along and invent murder with his nasty tree of death/

64 Wendya  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:41:24pm

Looking at the level of intelligence coming from the Discovery Institute, an argument for de-evolution can be made.

65 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:41:40pm
A bit melodramatic, but otherwise on the mark. Whatever its merits as a scientific idea, evolution's Tree of Life has been revealed in many ways, in the most practical and painful terms, as a Tree of Death.

You mean like... the larch?

66 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:42:07pm

Darwinism promotes animalism which is taught in our schools! This will lead your children to become Darwin-Animalists which will lead them to engage in pre-marital sex, drugs, and eventually homosexuality and murder!

David Klinghoffer 2009

//

67 nyc redneck  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:42:25pm

i hate how they twist paleontology.

68 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:43:13pm

re: #41 Dianna

I wasn't - as I'm sure I've stated - Reagan's biggest fan,

I hadn't seen your statement. What was your beef with Reagan?

69 Unakite  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:43:26pm

re: #45 Gus 802

Folks. There's a new danger in society today and we're not talking the Imperial Japanese Navy. Instead, this danger is far more sinister than anything that his bombed our shores. This threat is in our schools and his name is...

Charles Darwin!

///

And I thought it was Gorebal warming!

70 nyc redneck  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:43:53pm

it's abt. the fossils, stupid.

71 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:44:18pm

re: #69 Unakite

And I thought it was Gorebal warming!

Darwin created Algore!

Thus spake Klinghoffer //

72 zombie  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:44:22pm

These creationists are apparently unaware of the Corollary to Godwin's Law:

The first person in any argument to make an unwarranted Nazi reference has lost the argument.

73 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:44:29pm

re: #60 buzzsawmonkey

You'll walk erect

Well, first thing in the morning, certainly.

74 Unakite  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:44:49pm

re: #49 lawhawk

You're just going to have to drill that home, aren't you.

You have to fill your time somehow, don't you?

75 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:45:00pm

Hey Mr. Klinghoffer, I got an idea for you:

"Darwin invented HIV, to kill black people!"

It might work...

76 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:45:03pm

re: #66 Gus 802

Darwinism promotes animalism which is taught in our schools! This will lead your children to become Darwin-Animalists which will lead them to engage in pre-marital sex, drugs, and eventually homosexuality and murder!

David Klinghoffer 2009

//

That explains Greek history. The wily time-traveling Darwin!

77 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:45:26pm

re: #11 Dianna

Oh, ah, my goodness. Where does one start?

Darwin rose from his grave and convinced Harris and Klebold to shoot up Columbine High School?!

Nah he just sold them some funky Tshirts.

78 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:45:51pm

re: #75 Last Mohican

Hey Mr. Klinghoffer, I got an idea for you:

"Darwin invented HIV, to kill black people!"

It might work...

Didn't he also gather them in New Orleans?

/think about it

79 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:46:11pm

re: #77 Wishing

Nah he just sold them some funky Tshirts.

"Darwin made up his whole theory just to sell T-shirts!"

80 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:46:38pm

re: #76 jaunte

That explains Greek history. The wily time-traveling Darwin!

Perhaps Darwin was a Animalist-Zombie that's lived for thousand of years!

//6000 years tops.

81 Racer X  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:46:39pm

re: #70 nyc redneck

it's abt. the fossils, stupid.

Not just fossils. Astronomy also shows the universe is billions of years old. Not much of a stretch for Earth to be billions of years old as well.

82 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:46:51pm

re: #75 Last Mohican

Hey Mr. Klinghoffer, I got an idea for you:

"Darwin invented HIV, to kill black people!"

It might work...

He could give a lecture on the subject. I'm sure Jeremiah Wright would be happy to give his introduction.

//

83 jim in virginia  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:47:39pm

re: #12 Gus 802


Darwin caused Eliot Spitzer to cheat on his wife with a prostitute! //


Darwin made Clinton seduce Lewinsky?

84 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:47:53pm

re: #79 Last Mohican

"Darwin made up his whole theory just to sell T-shirts!"

MY ANCESTORS CAME OUT OF THE OLDUVAI GORGE
AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT

85 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:48:15pm

re: #47 Thanos

Check out the graphic linked in comments:

[Link: img407.imageshack.us...]

That's fantastic. I think I like it even more than that page Charles found, where the sweet little girl is feeding some lettuce to the brontosaurus.

86 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:48:20pm

re: #79 Last Mohican

"Darwin made up his whole theory just to sell T-shirts!"

And bumper fish with his name in them!

Although it does sort of strike me as a poke in the eye that evolutionists, in this particular instance, co-opted a christian symbol for their own purposes.

87 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:48:55pm

re: #80 Gus 802

Perhaps Darwin was a Animalist-Zombie that's lived for thousand of years!

//6000 years tops.

(Or maybe "Darwin" is an alien who used to live under the Denver airport.
It's all beginning to fit...)

88 zombie  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:49:02pm

The funny thing is, the world's first and largest Darwin museum was in...

Moscow.

Because the communists thought that evolution supported their ideology.

Hence Darwin is personally responsible for communism, Nazism, multiculturalism, fascism, animal-like behavior and rigid eugenics!

He's history's greatest monster!

89 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:49:10pm

re: #83 jim in virginia

Darwin made Clinton seduce Lewinsky?

Yep. He could have claimed Darwinism as a defense.

"Ah, judge, my client would like to claim temporary Darwinism." //

90 dmandman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:49:18pm

What most people don't know (they weren't taught it because it shows some people of faith as being sane) was archeology and geology were started in their modern forms by Academics of Theological Institutions that couldn't make sense of the data. They were confronted with books of faith that stated one thing, but the physical evidence that they observed showed something different. Modern science took of in the Western world because these people just had to find out how they were getting it wrong (after all their books of faith had spelled everything out so well). Eventually, they reached a point where they had too much contrary evidence and as true men of faith they came to conclusion that maybe things were a bit beyond their current understanding. If you read the early writings by Newton and the others they very eloquently described how religious writing are intended as instructional allegory and not confuse Science as teaching of morality. They both (in their arguments) had equal value and the concept of a liberal (note the small L) education was formed. Creationists and their ilk don't get it, Darwin doesn't talk morality just how and what was observed. Another way to put it is who am I to tell god how and when to do his job, just watch and be amazed.

91 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:49:25pm

What a freaking tard.

Wayne Gacy was a good Christian, and a clown.

Clowns and/or Jesus = molestation and kids buried in your basement.

Its true, I read it on teh interwebs.

92 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:49:39pm

Because of Darwin- I was vaccinated! The horror....the horror.....

93 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:49:59pm

What I find scary is this person has a following. Don't know how large, but it makes one pause and think about what kind of idiots want to teach our kids science.

94 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:50:48pm

re: #87 jaunte

(Or maybe "Darwin" is an alien who used to live under the Denver airport.
It's all beginning to fit...)

Hmmm. You mean like the Jersey Devil that make New Jerseyians think the Giants are a Jersey team? Or maybe like... like...

L Ron Hubbard!

95 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:51:38pm

Ladies and gentlemen, Sympathy for the Darwin.

Youtube Video
96 Kronocide  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:51:41pm

What a caricature this is. Tree of death. How freaking funny.

97 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:51:50pm

re: #68 Occasional Reader

I hadn't seen your statement. What was your beef with Reagan?

Not exactly a beef, more like a series of observations. He blew it in Lebanon, he blew it on that one hijacker, and he seriously blew it with amnesty. There were other things, but most of them are quibbles.

I just don't view him as St. Ronnie, the way my brother (for instance) does.

98 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:52:00pm

It's not Darwin. It's the damn flouride in the water! /

99 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:52:04pm

re: #92 Sharmuta
How come you don't have autism? BTW, I have the smallpox scar on my arm. Had a bunch of my troops ask me if I'd been wounded! Had to explain what the smallpox vaccination was!

100 Summer Seale  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:52:30pm

re: #98 HelloDare

It's not Darwin. It's the damn flouride in the water! /

They're draining our precious bodily fluids...

101 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:52:39pm
102 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:53:02pm

re: #100 Summer
Mwahahaha!

103 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:53:15pm

re: #90 dmandman

What most people don't know (they weren't taught it because it shows some people of faith as being sane) was archeology and geology were started in their modern forms by Academics of Theological Institutions that couldn't make sense of the data. They were confronted with books of faith that stated one thing, but the physical evidence that they observed showed something different. Modern science took of in the Western world because these people just had to find out how they were getting it wrong (after all their books of faith had spelled everything out so well). Eventually, they reached a point where they had too much contrary evidence and as true men of faith they came to conclusion that maybe things were a bit beyond their current understanding. If you read the early writings by Newton and the others they very eloquently described how religious writing are intended as instructional allegory and not confuse Science as teaching of morality. They both (in their arguments) had equal value and the concept of a liberal (note the small L) education was formed. Creationists and their ilk don't get it, Darwin doesn't talk morality just how and what was observed. Another way to put it is who am I to tell god how and when to do his job, just watch and be amazed.

Well, yeah. After the church burned/imprisoned a few (hunedred/thousands?) for heresy.

104 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:53:23pm

The Onion would like to thank David Klinghoffer for future material. //

105 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:53:26pm

re: #91 Egregious Philbin

I dinged you down simply because stating things like that helps DI further their "Christians are persecuted" meme. Please don't diss Christians in DI threads, you only help them out by doing so.

106 AMER1CAN  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:53:43pm

The article fails to mention the simple and undeniable fact.

2 fucking kids can come into your school and blow you the fuck away.

Liberals have a very hard time dealing with this cold hard fact. They don't understand it, won't accept it, and for damned sure are not prepared to defend against it. This is why their own solution is always to try and get rid of guns.

See, it wasn't just 2 sick fucks who committed this. It was some external factor that can be blamed. Like guns, or Darwin, or [insert favorite victim].

If anything, these 2 cowards are proof of Darwin theory working because they were so sick and screwed in the head they killed themselves and that it's actually better for all that they are dead and are never able to procreate and pass on their obviously fucked up genes.

107 Summer Seale  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:54:00pm

re: #102 pingjockey

Mwahahaha!

Mandrake! Mandrake, old buddy, come and hold this ammo belt for me....

108 dwells38  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:54:10pm

It's always humorous when these people blame Darwin and his theory for societal ills.

Very few average people could tell you much about Darwin or accurately describe aspects of his theory such as natural selection or macroevolution or speciation. Yet ask any hoodlum, drug addict or hooker on a rough looking street and they know all about Jesus and God and angels and demons.

I'm not claiming the reverse. I'm just saying.

And why do they call that place the Discovery Institute? Looks to me like they're more interested in Undiscovering 150+ years of scientific evidence backing up evolution.

109 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:54:27pm

Latest release from The Discovery Institute:

Protocols of the Elders of Darwin.

110 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:54:34pm

Isn't this just the script from "No Intelligence Allowed"?

111 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:55:07pm

Lucy (in the stone of Awash Valley) was a Darwinist plot.

112 zombie  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:55:10pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

Does the entrance to the Darwin Museum have an evolving door?

It used to.

Now it's a window.

113 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:55:26pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

Does the entrance to the Darwin Museum have an evolving door?

Here's a sketch of me trying to get in the door. It took eons, seemingly.

114 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:56:09pm

re: #112 zombie

It used to.

Now it's a window.

Later on, people will construct a henge.

115 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:56:09pm

re: #95 doppelganglander

Hellbound - heels up - world without end - amen......................

116 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:56:26pm

re: #113 OldLineTexan

Here's a sketch of me trying to get in the door. It took eons, seemingly.

Exactly when was it that you dropped the breasts?

117 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:56:34pm

116 in and no melties yet

118 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:56:44pm

re: #107 Summer
We must make up for this 'mine shaft gap'!

119 zombie  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:56:46pm

re: #114 jaunte

Later on, people will construct a henge.

Only when they're stoned.

120 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:57:04pm

These creationists once again share a trait with the pro-Intifada/Jihad crowd: blatant invention and manipulation of reality.

121 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:57:15pm
122 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:57:37pm

re: #119 zombie

Only when they're stoned.

Then even later they'll start worrying about sarsens.

123 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:57:43pm

re: #103 BignJames

Well, yeah. After the church burned/imprisoned a few (hunedred/thousands?) for heresy.

Overall executions for heresy probably number close to 800,000. Witchcraft executions probably number between 100,000-300,000 (very hard to estimate, too many records got lost). Albigensian Crusade probably accounted for a good 150,000 over a century or so; various other large-scale persecutions may have amounted to 250,000. The rest is accounted for by fairly constant action by the Inquisition.

Again, the numbers aren't as clear as one would like. Heresy sometimes got tossed in - or out - with a number of other, civil crimes.

124 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:57:46pm

re: #115 IslandLibertarian

Hellbound - heels up - world without end - amen......................

Perhaps that was the primal man-boobs man.

125 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:57:50pm

re: #97 Dianna

Not exactly a beef, more like a series of observations. He blew it in Lebanon, he blew it on that one hijacker, and he seriously blew it with amnesty. There were other things, but most of them are quibbles.

I just don't view him as St. Ronnie, the way my brother (for instance) does.

I think he got a series of small to middlin' things wrong, and two or three Big Things very right.

I think he and Margaret Thatcher more or less saved Western Civilization (at least for a while).

By the way, I also think he blew it with Iran/Contra... I'd add that to the list. But still.

126 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:57:57pm

re: #116 HelloDare

Exactly when was it that you dropped the breasts?

Between #3 and #4. Good diet, regular exercise, no more Fritos.

127 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:58:26pm

I'm just thankful that these creationists were born into Christian families and not Muslim.

128 Kronocide  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:58:31pm

Tree of Evil, 4th grade science class, Texas, 2010

Columbine 9/11
%P% %P%
/
/
Nazism
%P%
%P%
Darwinism
%P%
%P%
Eve at the apple

See?

129 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:58:38pm

re: #116 HelloDare

Exactly when was it that you dropped the breasts?

That usually happens around age 40 or so.

130 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:03pm

re: #119 zombie

Only when they're stoned.

Had to have been coke. No way potheads are dragging all those huge stones.

131 Kronocide  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:08pm

Crap. It didn't format correctly.

132 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:17pm

re: #128 BigPapa

Tree of Evil, 4th grade science class, Texas, 2010

Columbine 9/11
%P% %P%
/
/
Nazism
%P%
%P%
Darwinism
%P%
%P%
Eve at the apple

See?

Clearly. But you forgot the Stonewall riots.

133 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:20pm

re: #106 AMER1CAN

The article fails to mention the simple and undeniable fact.

2 fucking kids can come into your school and blow you the fuck away.

Liberals have a very hard time dealing with this cold hard fact. They don't understand it, won't accept it, and for damned sure are not prepared to defend against it. This is why their own solution is always to try and get rid of guns.

See, it wasn't just 2 sick fucks who committed this. It was some external factor that can be blamed. Like guns, or Darwin, or [insert favorite victim].

If anything, these 2 cowards are proof of Darwin theory working because they were so sick and screwed in the head they killed themselves and that it's actually better for all that they are dead and are never able to procreate and pass on their obviously fucked up genes.

Very good point. Nuts like Klinghoffer make conservatives look bad and let liberals have a easier run of it.

134 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:22pm

So I'm dividing my time between this thread, e-mail, and Metropolis. Which, I'll admit, I've never seen (Metropolis, that is).

135 zombie  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:23pm

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

The more that comes out about the Columbine killers, the more it seems as if they were a cheap modern version of Loeb and Leopold, with slasher films and video games as inspiration rather than Nietszche.

Hitchcok Jr. will make a movie about them and call it "Dope."

136 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:27pm

re: #47 Thanos

Check out the graphic linked in comments:

[Link: img407.imageshack.us...]

If Jesus loves the baby dinosaurs so much, why didn't he remind Noah to take them on the ark?

137 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:43pm

re: #127 HelloDare

I'm just thankful that these creationists were born into Christian families and not Muslim.

But then we wouldn't need to be so polite about them...//

138 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:59:59pm

re: #130 OldLineTexan

Had to have been coke. No way potheads are dragging all those huge stones.

UFO help. Duh.

139 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:00:13pm

re: #136 Alouette
They missed the boat!

140 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:00:21pm

re: #125 Occasional Reader

I never bring up Iran/Contra. It turns into a flame-fest, and there's no firm answer, in the end.

141 Mich-again  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:00:22pm

I remember the absolutely classless Colorado Avalanche fans at the Pepsi Center just a couple weeks after Columbine chanting "Detroit Sucks".

142 Kragar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:00:41pm

One can conclude by reading that drivel that prior to Darwin's theory, no one attempted to rationalize murder, death or war. What an utterly assinine waste of time and thought.

143 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:00:45pm

Since we're on the topic of Columbine, let's not forget what happened. The two murderous bastards killed 13 people:

Cassie Bernall, Steve Curnow, Corey DePooter, Kelly Fleming, Matt Kechter, Daniel Mauser, Daniel Rohrbough, Rachel Scott, Isaiah Shoels, John Tomlin, Lauren Townsend, Kyle Velasquez, and Coach Dave Sanders.

Another 23 people were injured: Brian Anderson, Richard Castaldo, Jennifer Doyle, Stephen 'Austin' Eubanks, Nicholas 'Nick' Foss, Sean Graves, Makai Hall, Anne Marie Hochhalter, Patrick Ireland, Michael Johnson, Joyce Jankowski, Mark Kintgen, Lisa Kreutz, Lance Kirklin, Adam Kyler, Stephanie Munson, Patricia 'Patti' Nielson, Nicole Nowlen, Jeanna Park, Kacey Ruegsegger, Valeen Schnurr, Daniel Steepleton, Evan Todd, and Mark Taylor.

144 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:01:01pm

re: #123 Dianna


That's a lot...I was mostly referring to early astronomers.

145 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:01:10pm

re: #136 Alouette

If Jesus loves the baby dinosaurs so much, why didn't he remind Noah to take them on the ark?

Nice. Really nice.

146 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:01:18pm

re: #127 HelloDare

I'm just thankful that these creationists were born into Christian families and not Muslim.

David Klinghoffer is Jewish. Yes, it's embarrassing.

147 Wendya  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:01:43pm

re: #47 Thanos

Check out the graphic linked in comments:

[Link: img407.imageshack.us...]

My favorite:

Image: jesus_dinosaur.jpg

148 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:01:54pm

re: #141 Mich-again

I remember the absolutely classless Colorado Avalanche fans at the Pepsi Center just a couple weeks after Columbine chanting "Detroit Sucks".

I hope the Red Wings kicked their candy asses.

149 Mich-again  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:08pm

re: #143 lawhawk

Some shooting victims were trapped in rooms for 3 hours before Police got to them. What was the holdup?

150 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:14pm

The creationists are another example of a group that would like to break the current contract (the Constitution) and replace the existing authority with one of their own choosing (in the creationists case- the Bible). This mentality is wide spread. It's not just left and right- various groupings think the current "system" is evil and has to be replaced. Their solutions are different but similar as they share a common enemy by seeing the problem as"the system".

151 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:15pm

re: #126 OldLineTexan

Between #3 and #4. Good diet, regular exercise, no more Fritos.

Those would be "moobs", correct?

152 Aye Pod  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:16pm

If anyone (Sal perhaps?) fancies some tender english creationist rump tonight, here's where to go:

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

So far, I have it all to myself.

153 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:19pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader

UFO help. Duh.

zombie said "stoned". UFOs are outside the parameters unless they're imaginary.

154 Mich-again  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:22pm

re: #148 Alouette

I hope the Red Wings kicked their candy asses.

Not that year!

155 Kronocide  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:34pm

Columbine 9/11
.........%P%.........%P%
................./
..........Nazism
..............%P%
........Darwinism
..............%P%
....Eve ate the apple

Mo betta eductation.

156 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:39pm

re: #12 Gus 802

Eliot Spitzer was also on an anti-video game jihad, and used dishonest tactics to malign the gaming industry.

I would think that a Disco Institute senior fellow would try to find something favorable to say about him.

157 Kragar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:02:50pm

re: #149 Mich-again

Some shooting victims were trapped in rooms for 3 hours before Police got to them. What was the holdup?

I think they were worried about bombs and boobytraps

158 Hengineer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:03:06pm

Evolution of the American Man.

Image: lay_evo_obesity.jpg

159 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:03:42pm

re: #128 BigPapa

Tree of Evil, 4th grade science class, Texas, 2010

Columbine 9/11
%P% %P%
/
/
Nazism
%P%
%P%
Darwinism
%P%
%P%
Eve at the apple

See?

Brilliant, actually. It always comes back to misogyny, doesn't it?

160 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:03:45pm

re: #156 Slumbering Behemoth

Eliot Spitzer was also on an anti-video game jihad, and used dishonest tactics to malign the gaming industry.

I would think that a Disco Institute senior fellow would try to find something favorable to say about him.

Was he? Life (or is that people) is full of ironies. Yeah, after Columbine it was the thing for politicians to blame. That and Marylin Manson.

161 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:04:12pm

re: #150 Sharmuta
One common factor to all these groups. The will tell us what is right and wrong. Totalitarians all, just in different guises.

162 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:04:22pm

re: #138 Occasional Reader
build a "henge"?

It was a drug far more powerful than pot and coke.........it was Religion.

163 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:04:58pm

It will be interesting to see what creationists will say if life is discovered on Mars.

164 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:05:00pm

re: #136 Alouette

If Jesus loves the baby dinosaurs so much, why didn't he remind Noah to take them on the ark?

Because neither Jesus nor Noah had heard of each other?/

165 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:05:03pm

re: #136 Alouette

If Jesus loves the baby dinosaurs so much, why didn't he remind Noah to take them on the ark?

Now you've gone and done it.

Tomorrow's headline: LGF now directly bashes Jesus -- says he was a bad person.

166 Racer X  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:05:20pm

re: #136 Alouette

If Jesus loves the baby dinosaurs so much, why didn't he remind Noah to take them on the ark?

*pop*


[heads exploded]

167 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:05:37pm

re: #149 Mich-again

Some shooting victims were trapped in rooms for 3 hours before Police got to them. What was the holdup?

securing the buildings when you don't know how many shooters takes time.

not like TV.

168 The Shadow Do  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:05:46pm

re: #141 Mich-again

I remember the absolutely classless Colorado Avalanche fans at the Pepsi Center just a couple weeks after Columbine chanting "Detroit Sucks".

Huh?

169 Shug  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:06:06pm

re: #128 BigPapa

Tree of Evil, 4th grade science class, Texas, 2010

Columbine 9/11
%P% %P%
/
/
Nazism
%P%
%P%MISSING LINK


Darwinism
%P%
%P%


FTFY
Two can play at their game

170 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:06:24pm

re: #162 IslandLibertarian

build a "henge"?

It was a drug far more powerful than pot and coke.........it was Religion.

How Marxist of you.

171 Dar ul Harbarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:06:45pm

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

The more that comes out about the Columbine killers, the more it seems as if they were a cheap modern version of Loeb and Leopold, with slasher films and video games as inspiration rather than Nietszche.

I had to google that. Never heard of them. I wonder if Harris and Klebold were homosexual lovers? If not, I hope the slander spreads on their rotten memories.

BTW today is Hitler's birthday. Sorry to go Godwin but I hope he Rots In Hell.

172 transient  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:06:54pm

re: #150 Sharmuta

This mentality is widespread. It's not just left and right- various groupings think the current "system" is evil and has to be replaced. Their solutions are different but similar as they share a common enemy by seeing the problem as "the system".


It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government-- except all the others that have been tried.

Sir Winston Churchill.

173 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:06:58pm

re: #164 Naso Tang

Because neither Jesus nor Noah had heard of each other?/

Ah, but Christianity today is overwhelmingly trinitarian, where Jesus = God, so how could have Jesus had not known of Noah?

That's just for fun though. This sort of "arguing" can go around and around and around in circles for hours.

174 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:07:27pm

re: #167 IslandLibertarian

securing the buildings when you don't know how many shooters takes time.

not like TV.

Harris and Klebold were already dead by then. Like you said it just a long time to secure the building. There was word of LP gas bombs if I remember correctly.

175 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:07:30pm

re: #164 Naso Tang

Because neither Jesus nor Noah had heard of each other?/

God can't think of everything. Uh, wait a minute... never mind.

176 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:07:40pm

Don't forget to use the report button, folks.

177 AMER1CAN  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:07:41pm

re: #106 AMER1CAN

Might of wanted to add a language warning to that.

/I grew up in Colorado and was in Columbine high school 2 weeks before this happened. I'll try and clean it up a bit. My bad.

178 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:07:52pm

re: #170 OldLineTexan

How Marxist of you.

quite the contrary. I'm very spiritual. Not religious, like Marx was about his creed.

179 zombie  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:08:00pm

re: #163 HelloDare

It will be interesting to see what creationists will say if life is discovered on Mars.

You actually believe we've landed on Mars?

Tsk tsk tsk. They filmed those shots in the same studio where they filmed the moon landing.

How could you be so naive? Didn't you see that brilliant documentary hosted by O.J. Simpson, Capricorn One?

180 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:08:13pm
181 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:08:15pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

He could give a lecture on the subject. I'm sure Jeremiah Wright would be happy to give his introduction.

//

DARWIN'S finches Chickens have come hoooome ....to ROOOOST!

/er, 'Rev.," wasn't Darwin British?

182 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:08:21pm

re: #153 OldLineTexan

zombie said "stoned". UFOs are outside the parameters unless they're imaginary.

Dude...

1) Druids toked up.

2) UFO dudes heard they (Druids) had scored some good shit, dropped by.

3) Druids said, "don't bogart the stash, Grey Dudes, and while you're here, could you help us with these stones?"

How hard is this to understand?

183 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:08:49pm

re: #105 Thanos

I dinged you down, because you can't get satire.

184 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:09:14pm

the way I see it, God created man and man created religion.

185 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:09:20pm
186 Dar ul Harbarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:09:37pm

What is the report button? Is it that little exclamation point?

187 Hengineer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:09:42pm

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

I always rotate my satires on a regular basis.

Why do people constantly sit on tires?
I don't get it

/////

188 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:09:46pm

Creationists like this Klinghoffer are not delusional, they are not ignorant, and they are not funny. They are depraved bastards, willful liars all. This is consistent with the white trash culture of their religious power-centers; the belief, historically rooted in envy of the slaveholder class, that getting away with stupidity is a more certain demonstration of power than intelligence. Similarly, the actual desirability of personal honesty is an alien concept to them. Their respect for the plain truth is limited to using it as a club with which to beat the less powerful. Their every waking moment is spent figuring out new ones to be stupid and dishonest while upholding their pitifully transparent figleaf of piety.

189 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:09:48pm
190 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:09:53pm

re: #178 IslandLibertarian

quite the contrary. I'm very spiritual. Not religious, like Marx was about his creed.

Some of us religious types don't really appreciate the "drug" reference you just made, and it is in fact Marxist.

I'm not stoned.

191 Hengineer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:10:03pm

re: #189 buzzsawmonkey

'nite, folks.

laidher bsm

192 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:10:07pm

re: #185 buzzsawmonkey

I always rotate my satires on a regular basis.

And make sure they are properly inflated?

193 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:10:20pm

re: #186 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the report button? Is it that little exclamation point?

Oui.

194 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:10:30pm

re: #189 buzzsawmonkey
G'nite. Liked your form letter!

195 Hengineer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:10:41pm

re: #192 Truck Monkey

And make sure they are properly inflated?

I'm sure the satread and sawear pattern is good, too.

196 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:10:51pm

re: #192 Truck Monkey

And make sure they are properly inflated?


To get the best wear?

197 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:10:53pm

re: #182 Occasional Reader

Dude...

1) Druids toked up.

2) UFO dudes heard they (Druids) had scored some good shit, dropped by.

3) Druids said, "don't bogart the stash, Grey Dudes, and while you're here, could you help us with these stones?"

How hard is this to understand?

Woah. My hands are HUGE.

What?

/

198 Kragar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:11:12pm

re: #182 Occasional Reader

Dude...

1) Druids toked up.

2) UFO dudes heard they (Druids) had scored some good shit, dropped by.

3) Druids said, "don't bogart the stash, Grey Dudes, and while you're here, could you help us with these stones?"

How hard is this to understand?

Which reminds me:

Rimmer: "How could they move such huge massive stones?"

Lister: " 'Cause they 'ad huge massive whips."

199 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:11:33pm

re: #149 Mich-again

Some shooting victims were trapped in rooms for 3 hours before Police got to them. What was the holdup?

The Columbine Report

At that point in time, rapid response by Police was not a favored tactic. The tactics at the time were secure the scene. Get a large enough team together to sweep and secure the building, additionally there was the added threat of the propane bombs.

There had been a few instances where a rapid response made things worse.

For the most part tactics have been revised again since Columbine.

200 Hengineer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:11:42pm

re: #197 OldLineTexan

Woah. My hands are HUGE.

What?

/

All of a sudden I have a yearning for some Funyuns.....

//

201 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:12:00pm

re: #160 Gus 802

Yes, he was.

I may have been a bit hasty though, saying he used "dishonest tactics". It could just very well be that he was just being dumb enough not to vet his sources.

202 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:12:07pm

re: #198 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Red Dwarf Rules.

203 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:12:18pm

re: #173 eclectic infidel

This sort of "arguing" can go around and around and around in circles for hours.

Much longer than that. It's called theology.

204 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:12:24pm

re: #176 Charles

urk...

205 Mich-again  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:12:49pm

re: #167 IslandLibertarian

Tough call. You know there are wounded in the rooms. But you don't want to rush into a booby trap or turn a corner into gunfire. Ultimate respect for any people who put their lives on the lines for others to earn a living.

206 Dar ul Harbarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:13:26pm

Speaking of 420, I'll toast to the potheads getting toasted tonight.

207 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:13:57pm

re: #184 IslandLibertarian

the way I see it, God created man and man created religion.

Religion is man attempting to do something for God.

Usually without consulting with Him before hand.

208 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:00pm

Hong Kong's HSI plunges over 4% in opening minutes

209 solomonpanting  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:05pm
Charles Darwin's theory of evolution with its Tree of Life is applauded by most sophisticated Americans and Europeans as a scientific idea pure and simple, without the aura of dread and terror that, properly, should surround it in our minds.

Obviously, that's Klinghoffer’s mission.

210 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:15pm

Good evening.

The market dumped by about 4% today as profit taking and unease over the coming profit numbers ruled the day.

So far tonight the futures are mixed.

211 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:15pm

re: #201 Slumbering Behemoth

Yes, he was.

I may have been a bit hasty though, saying he used "dishonest tactics". It could just very well be that he was just being dumb enough not to vet his sources.

Right, I vaguely remember the hoax site aspect. The events that followed were rather pathetic at times -- coming from the politicians both local and national.

212 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:18pm

re: #206 Dar ul Harbarian

Speaking of 420, I'll toast to the potheads getting toasted tonight.


Wha

213 Kragar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:20pm

re: #202 OldLineTexan

Red Dwarf Rules.

"RIMMER!"
"I dont like the way you say that."
"But Rimmer is your name."
"But you always put the emphasis on RIM!"

214 Dar ul Harbarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:29pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Hong Kong's HSI plunges over 4% in opening minutes

Don't harsh my mellow, dude.

215 Hengineer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:33pm

re: #207 jcm

Religion is man attempting to do something for God.

Usually without consulting with Him before hand.

Wait, you're going to do what? for me?

Aw how sweet!

/////

216 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:14:52pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Hong Kong's HSI plunges over 4% in opening minutes

Gah.

217 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:15:19pm

re: #206 Dar ul Harbarian

Speaking of 420, I'll toast to the potheads getting toasted tonight.

Hey man like what's 420 man. Like what are you talking about man.

You got any ice cream?

//

218 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:15:37pm

re: #216 Occasional Reader

Gah.

Gah pan?

219 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:15:53pm

re: #202 OldLineTexan

Red Dwarf Rules.

That you Rimmer?

220 Dar ul Harbarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:15:56pm

re: #212 BignJames

Wha

Today is 4/20

221 Kragar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:15:58pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Hong Kong's HSI plunges over 4% in opening minutes

CHANGE!

222 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:16:00pm

re: #114 jaunte

Later on, people will construct a henge.

Youtube Video
223 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:16:12pm

re: #218 OldLineTexan

Gah pan?

Moo goo gah pan? //

224 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:16:31pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Hey man like what's 420 man. Like what are you talking about man.

You got any ice cream?

//

Dude, ice cream? Sweeeeet. Crumble these Pop-Tarts on it, that'll be really good. Here's some peanuts.

225 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:16:39pm

Asia/Pacific Indices

226 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:16:45pm

re: #190 OldLineTexan

No offense meant to the truly devout.
In brevity of posting, it may seem that my attitude is disrespectful toward you.
I refer to those that ensnare their followers in a religious trap much like a dealer snares junkies and uses them to their own ends.
I know all to well about that "religious experience".
Sorry if I have offended you.

227 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:16:57pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Hey man like what's 420 man. Like what are you talking about man.

You got any ice cream?

//

OK. I give in. What's 420?

228 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:17:10pm

re: #219 jcm

That you Rimmer?

You can call me ACE.

229 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:17:13pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Hong Kong's HSI plunges over 4% in opening minutes

Damn that Darwin! Now look what he's done.

230 Hengineer  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:17:34pm

re: #229 Last Mohican

Damn that Darwin! Now look what he's done.

Its all the fault of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

231 Kragar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:17:41pm

re: #228 OldLineTexan

You can call me ACE.

Followed closely by HOLE.

232 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:18:05pm

re: #226 IslandLibertarian

OK, I'll mellow out.

I heard there was some 420.

/I don't know either

233 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:18:11pm

What Congress is doing to the American tax payer is like a financial Columbine.

Your 401K's are at their mercy, and by what means do you have to defend it?

234 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:18:12pm

OT:
Chrysler rejects $750 million from feds; says they don't need the money and don't want the strings attached.

Does anyone else get the feeling that business and industry is starting to catch on to the whole government intrusion game that Bush started and Obama shifted into high gear?

235 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:18:12pm

re: #224 OldLineTexan

Dude, ice cream? Sweeeeet. Crumble these Pop-Tarts on it, that'll be really good. Here's some peanuts.

See, ice cream like that already exists: Ben & Jerry's!

*Whirled Peace
*Cookie Dough
*Heath Bar Crunch
*PB & Chocolate Chunk

236 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:18:30pm

re: #231 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Followed closely by HOLE.

That's MISTER Ace Hole to you, Junior!

237 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:18:36pm

re: #232 OldLineTexan

OK, I'll mellow out.

I heard there was some 420.

/I don't know either

See post #220 above. A learning experience for me, too.

238 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:18:38pm

re: #188 Shiplord Kirel

Creationists like this Klinghoffer are not delusional, they are not ignorant, and they are not funny. They are depraved bastards, willful liars all. This is consistent with the white trash culture of their religious power-centers; the belief, historically rooted in envy of the slaveholder class, that getting away with stupidity is a more certain demonstration of power than intelligence. Similarly, the actual desirability of personal honesty is an alien concept to them. Their respect for the plain truth is limited to using it as a club with which to beat the less powerful. Their every waking moment is spent figuring out new ones to be stupid and dishonest while upholding their pitifully transparent figleaf of piety.

Won't the "Liars for Jesus" be surprised when they finally meet Jesus. They'll be expecting praise and instead they'll hear "Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire!"

239 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:12pm

re: #235 eclectic infidel

See, ice cream like that already exists: Ben & Jerry's!

*Whirled Peace
*Cookie Dough
*Heath Bar Crunch
*PB & Chocolate Chunk

Dude, if it ain't Bluebell it ain't ice cream.

240 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:36pm

re: #211 Gus 802

On a similar note, some great news breaking today:

BREAKING - U.S. Supreme Court Declines to Hear Jack Thompson's Appeal

Without comment, the U.S. Supreme Court has declined to hear Jack Thompson's appeal of his lifetime disbarment.

The justices considered Thompson's argument as well as dozens of other cases during their private conference on Friday. The Court's rejection of Thompson's appeal can be found in today's list of orders. Mention of Thompson's case is limited to a single line under a long list of cases for which the Court declined to grant Certiorari.

241 tobariv  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:37pm

The sun was created on day 4 according to the Bible. So the 24 hour day did not exist until that time. Studying science, by hopefully ethical people , enriches our lives in ways too numerous to count.

242 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:47pm

re: #227 Naso Tang

OK. I give in. What's 420?

4/20 is International Stoner's Day.

243 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:52pm

GREAT IS THE WORLD AND ITS CREATOR
AND GREAT IS MAN

Whoa! Heavy!

THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN HEAD AND HANDS MUST BE THE HEART!

Whoa! Heavy!

244 Kragar  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:56pm

re: #236 OldLineTexan

That's MISTER Ace Hole to you, Junior!

"YES SIR MISTER RIMMAH SIR!"

/jumps up and stomps feet into attention before slouching back into me bunk pondering curry and vindaloo

245 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:58pm

re: #217 Gus 802

Hey man like what's 420 man. Like what are you talking about man.

You got any ice cream?

//


i'm a child of the sixties. last time i toked was on vacation in jamaica--about 5 yrs ago--30 yrs later--OMG--what a difference--i actually had 2 inhales--went to heaven and had a great conversation with my mom-- never again!

246 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:19:58pm

re: #234 lawhawk

Yes, I did notice that.

I think I used the term "poison pill" before.

247 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:20:06pm

re: #188 Shiplord Kirel

Creationists like this Klinghoffer are not delusional, they are not ignorant, and they are not funny. They are depraved bastards, willful liars all. This is consistent with the white trash culture of their religious power-centers; the belief, historically rooted in envy of the slaveholder class, that getting away with stupidity is a more certain demonstration of power than intelligence. Similarly, the actual desirability of personal honesty is an alien concept to them. Their respect for the plain truth is limited to using it as a club with which to beat the less powerful. Their every waking moment is spent figuring out new ones to be stupid and dishonest while upholding their pitifully transparent figleaf of piety.

Don't hold back tell us what you really think!
Ding!

248 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:20:15pm

re: #227 Naso Tang

OK. I give in. What's 420?

420 is a national pot smoking day of sorts. Don't know what the origins are but it's centered around colleges. They've done it over in Boulder every year. Gets a lot of pot heads and students. One year the police took pictures of the attendees undercover and posted them at the UC Boulder Police Department website. Don't know whatever became of that.

249 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:20:23pm

re: #238 Dark_Falcon

Won't the "Liars for Jesus" be surprised when they finally meet Jesus. They'll be expecting praise and instead they'll hear "Depart, ye cursed, into everlasting fire!"

I think they'll be surprised to find that Jesus is real.

250 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:20:30pm

re: #239 OldLineTexan

Dude, if it ain't Bluebell it ain't ice cream.


I hear you. Over here in Oakland CA we have Fenton's Creamery and on Alameda there's Tucker's.

251 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:20:33pm

OT: 30 years ago today, Jimmy Carter encountered the killer rabbit.

252 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:20:44pm

re: #220 Dar ul Harbarian

re: #222 Dar ul Harb

Now I'm confused....which is not unusual.

253 pink freud  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:20:51pm

re: #239 OldLineTexan

Dude, if it ain't Bluebell it ain't ice cream.

HaagenDaaz Amazon Chocolate. Divine!

/no 420, just straight

254 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:21:04pm

re: #248 Gus 802

Again, the whole 420 thing is explained by the link in #220 above. First time I had ever heard the term.

255 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:21:12pm

I've got the 450. Otherwise known at the munchies.

256 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:21:27pm

re: #240 Slumbering Behemoth

On a similar note, some great news breaking today:

BREAKING - U.S. Supreme Court Declines to Hear Jack Thompson's Appeal

"Sleazebag lawyer gets the Stinky Beaumont treatment" is always good news.

257 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:21:36pm

re: #240 Slumbering Behemoth

On a similar note, some great news breaking today:

BREAKING - U.S. Supreme Court Declines to Hear Jack Thompson's Appeal

Wow. Did that stem from the gaming incidents?

258 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:21:48pm

re: #254 Last Mohican

Again, the whole 420 thing is explained by the link in #220 above. First time I had ever heard the term.

thats cause you dont live near boulder!

259 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:22:06pm

re: #251 gmsc

OT: 30 years ago today, Jimmy Carter encountered the killer rabbit.

Youtube Video
260 abbyadams  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:22:08pm

"Heaven and earth, centre and circumference, were created all together, in the same instant, and clouds full of water...this work took place and man was created by the Trinity on October 23, 4004 B.C., at nine o'clock in the morning."

Dr. John Lightfoot, Cambridge (1602-1675)

(Hangs on the wall of my supervisor's office in the biology department...just to remind us of what we're up against, sometimes.)

261 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:22:32pm

re: #251 gmsc

OT: 30 years ago today, Jimmy Carter encountered the killer rabbit.

It bit him. He got rabies. That's when his mind started to go. Just a rumor.

262 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:22:48pm

re: #253 pink freud

HaagenDaaz Amazon Chocolate. Divine!

/no 420, just straight

I've had that before and for mass produced ice cream, it IS Divine.

Heck, the standard chocolate from HD is excellent as well.

263 pink freud  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:23:07pm

re: #255 HelloDare

I've got the 450. Otherwise known at the munchies.

Wouldn't that be the 521's?

Dahmer's birthd ....oh, never mind.

///////////

264 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:23:29pm

re: #261 HelloDare

It bit him. He got rabies. That's when his mind started to go. Just a rumor.

i really think he has early alz--seriously.

265 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:23:39pm

re: #220 Dar ul Harbarian

Today is 4/20

I figured it was something equally dumb, although I was going to guess it was something to do with the price per ounce.

Unbelievable how some people pick the dumbest ass symbolism. When I was in college it was 2/7 (weekends), but we didn't become famous, and that was before the present dorks were born.

266 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:23:44pm

re: #259 Zimriel

Rabbit Bait's bete noire.

267 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:23:54pm

re: #252 BignJames

re: #222 Dar ul Harb

Now I'm confused....which is not unusual.

Hey, just think how confused we are when we search for previous comments.

Just call me Dar ul Harb "The Elder." ;)

268 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:24:04pm

re: #245 mikeymom

i'm a child of the sixties. last time i toked was on vacation in jamaica--about 5 yrs ago--30 yrs later--OMG--what a difference--i actually had 2 inhales--went to heaven and had a great conversation with my mom-- never again!

Hi Mikeymom. Yeah, I think of it as either/or. Don't want to turn this into a smoking thread. I will say this I rarely touch the stuff. Last time when I did I was completely tired for about 48 hours and my "joints" felt stiffer than they normally do.

269 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:24:23pm

re: #239 OldLineTexan

Dude, if it ain't Bluebell it ain't ice cream.

I'm agreeing with you here.
Bluebell is really really really good.
Too good.

270 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:24:42pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Hi Mikeymom. Yeah, I think of it as either/or. Don't want to turn this into a smoking thread. I will say this I rarely touch the stuff. Last time when I did I was completely tired for about 48 hours and my "joints" felt stiffer than they normally do.

So much for medical marijuana.

271 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:24:56pm

i have never paid for weed--course its been yrs--what is the going price? just axin'

272 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:24:58pm

re: #264 mikeymom

i really think he has early alz--seriously.

In this case it's Evilzheimer, what happens to a human brain from justifying evil for so long.

273 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:25:00pm

OT:

23 years ago today number 23 of the Chicago Bulls dropped 63 on the Celtics.

I still remember that game.

274 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:25:21pm

Full disclosure: I am not a Baptist but I probably would be if Baptist churches in this part of the world were not absolutely infested with; indeed, run by; creationists and other superstitious quacks.
The time-honored Baptist principle of separation of church and state is as extinct as Homo Habilis (whose existence they don't accept either.)

275 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:25:22pm
276 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:25:41pm

More specifically, to answer Mr. Andy Kessler's excellent question today:

So how is Fed chairman Ben Bernanke going to get all that toothpaste back into the tube?

The Fed has been cranking money out like water over Niagara Falls. The monetary base has increased by a trillion dollars in just the last six months.

And he's not done, furiously printing dollars (bank credits, really) and buying Treasuries in an attempt to flood the economy with dollars.

When will it end? $3 trillion? $4 trillion? And then what? A functioning economy doesn't need all that cash sloshing around. Is runaway inflation our next crisis?

I'll tell you how they will do it.

Correction, I'll tell you how they think they will do it -- because they won't be able to actually do it -- they will try, and they will fail; due to naivete, arrogance, short-sightedness, the council of 2nd and 3rd rate intellects (cf. Summers, Krugman, et al.), and they will fail, because they will gauge the market incorrectly.

Essentially, they are going to nationalize the banks, so that when the Fed goes to sell it's debt to the market and "private" banks, the non-private "private" banks will essentially do exactly as they say, and buy the debt at the prices they dictate to the banks.

That is their plan. Simple, stupid, short-sighted, and self-destructive.

Kiss your 401-K goodbye.

Otherwise, these bozos will use effectively all of it to "service" the thirteen trillion dollar spending spree that they've authorized by your wallet.

277 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:25:50pm

re: #270 Last Mohican

So much for medical marijuana.

Exactly. In fact that's what I was thinking when I had to get up and walk across the apartment.

//Medical? I feel like a rock.

278 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:25:54pm

I found it! 4/20 music tie in to why we are here!
listen real close to the beginning..............

279 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:26:26pm

re: #2 Shug

It's not nice to make fun of the insane.

Ok, just this one time

How about the cogentially stupid?

280 lostlakehiker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:27:08pm

re: #156 Slumbering Behemoth

Eliot Spitzer was also on an anti-video game jihad, and used dishonest tactics to malign the gaming industry.

I would think that a Disco Institute senior fellow would try to find something favorable to say about him.

Spitzer was on a personal crusade to amplify himself at the expense of anyone or any corporation that could be pilloried. It serves him right that he got hoist on his own petard. He didn't care if his targets were guilty. They had to pay to make the prosecutor go away.

281 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:27:15pm

re: #273 3 wood

OT:

23 years ago today number 23 of the Chicago Bulls dropped 63 on the Celtics.

I still remember that game.

Nah, couldn't be, Jordon only started a little while ago.... I can't be that old.... nope, 3-wood, check your facts couldn't have been 23 years ago... just couldn't have been.

*denial*
*denial*
*denial*

282 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:27:21pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Hi Mikeymom. Yeah, I think of it as either/or. Don't want to turn this into a smoking thread. I will say this I rarely touch the stuff. Last time when I did I was completely tired for about 48 hours and my "joints" felt stiffer than they normally do.

my god man--you dont ned viagra then--! i just remember--fondly--how great sex was after a joint--after 42 yrs of marriage, maybe hubby--who is retireing this week-could grow a garden?

283 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:27:33pm

re: #279 calcajun

How about the cogentially stupid?

OK, as requested:

Youtube Video
284 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:27:59pm

re: #234 lawhawk

Does anyone else get the feeling that business and industry is starting to catch on to the whole government intrusion game that Bush started and Obama shifted into high gear?


Yes. It's looking like This was well played. Despite all the bitching about Obama's secret plans to socialize the economy and that AIG execs might lose their bonuses I think he's made it uncomfortable enough that these companies are starting to get their shit together.

285 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:27:59pm

Speaking of evolution:

American UFO Spotted In Afghanistan

But many UAV engineers, and some fighter pilots, believe that combat UAVs could revolutionize air warfare. Combat UAVs can perform maneuvers that a manned aircraft cannot (because there are limits to the g-forces a human body can tolerate.) In theory, software and sensors would make a combat UAV much quicker to sort out a combat situation, and make the right move. For the moment, this aspect of UAV development is officially off the table. But once combat UAVs start operating, and that will be by the end of the decade, there will be much pressure to let combat UAVs rule the skies, in addition to scouting and bombing.

Meanwhile, no one is saying what a combat UAV design is doing in Afghanistan. But there it is, operating as a UFO (unidentified flying object).

286 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:29:09pm

re: #257 Gus 802

I think it stemmed from him being a raving POS, and a general, all-around asshole.

Linky

Page Two details the extensive misconduct of respondent and his complete lack of remorse. In her report, the referee states: Over a very extended period of time involving a number of totally unrelated cases and individuals, [r]espondent has demonstrated a pattern of conduct to strike out harshly, extensively, repeatedly and willfully to simply try to bring as much difficulty, distraction and anguish to those he considers in opposition to his causes. He does not proceed within the guidelines of appropriate professional behavior, but rather uses other means available to intimidate, harass, or bring public disrepute to those whom he perceives oppose him.

Among the extensive findings of fact presented in the report, the Court takes particular note of the following which occurred during the three-year period at issue in five counts in these cases: (1) respondent made false statements of material fact to courts and repeatedly violated a court order; (2) respondent communicated the subject of representation directly with clients of opposing counsel; (3) respondent engaged in prohibited ex parte communications; (4) respondent publicized and sent hundreds of pages of vitriolic and disparaging missives, letters, faxes, and press releases, to the affected individuals; (5) respondent targeted an individual who was not involved with respondent in any way, merely due to "the position [the individual] holds in state and national politics;" (6) respondent falsely, recklessly, and publicly accused a judge as being amenable to the "fixing" of cases; (7) respondent sent courts inappropriate and offensive sexual materials; (8) respondent falsely and publicly accused various attorneys and their clients of engaging in a conspiracy/enterprise involving "the criminal distribution of sexual materials to minors" and attempted to get prosecuting authorities to charge these attorneys and their clients for racketeering and extortion; (9) respondent harassed the former client of an attorney in an effort to get the client to use its influence to persuade the attorney to withdraw a defamation suit filed by the attorney against respondent; and (10) respondent retaliated against attorneys who filed Bar complaints against him for his unethical conduct by asserting to their clients, government officials, politicians, the media, female lawyers in their law firm, employees, personal friends, acquaintances, and their wives, that the attorneys were criminal Case Nos. SC07-80 and SC07-354 Page Three pornographers who objectify women.

287 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:29:20pm

re: #284 Killgore Trout

Yes. It's looking like This was well played. Despite all the bitching about Obama's secret plans to socialize the economy and that AIG execs might lose their bonuses I think he's made it uncomfortable enough that these companies are starting to get their shit together.

Um... right, that's an... interesting way of looking at it. I'm being polite.

288 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:29:31pm

re: #253 pink freud

HaagenDaaz Amazon Chocolate. Divine!

/no 420, just straight

HaagenDaaz was created to sound all European.

I ask you, what do Europeans know about ice cream? Nothing, that's what. They have Italian ices and glaces and what not, sure. Rum raisin, even. Cant give it to the kids.

Now Bluebell has a cow for a logo, and the creamery is right there in Brenham with the cows ... now that is fresh.

/

289 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:29:46pm

re: #285 razorbacker

Speaking of evolution:

American UFO Spotted In Afghanistan

I don't understand what's new. Haven't we had armed UAVs for some time now?

290 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:30:05pm

re: #282 mikeymom

my god man--you dont ned viagra then--! i just remember--fondly--how great sex was after a joint--after 42 yrs of marriage, maybe hubby--who is retireing this week-could grow a garden?

I meant like musculoskeletal joints stiffening up. ;)

A garden would be nice. Get the mail order seeds. They're supposed to be better.

/Allegedly.

291 Kronocide  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:30:14pm

re: #234 lawhawk

OT:
www.foxnews.com...]>
Does anyone else get the feeling that business and industry is starting to catch on to the whole government intrusion game that Bush started and Obama shifted into high gear?

What took them so long to figure it out? Most of us here knew that this was what would happen. Jeebus.

292 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:30:27pm

Russia is extending it's middle finger to the US with tariffs:

Putin’s Tariffs Stall Russian Growth for Caterpillar

April 20 (Bloomberg) -- Prime Minister Vladimir Putin’s trade measures are starting to keep Deere & Co. combines and Caterpillar Inc. trucks out of Russian wheat fields and coal mines, dimming the companies’ prospects for expansion abroad.

Deere and Caterpillar, reeling from the longest U.S. recession in a quarter century, were the companies most affected by loan restrictions and tariffs of as much as 25 percent that Putin imposed this year, according to a U.S. Chamber of Commerce survey of the top 50 American businesses operating in

Russia.

Putin is trying to boost Russian industries with tariffs on everything from drugs to farm equipment as declining oil revenue saps the nation’s economy. The policies are hurting sales by Caterpillar, Deere and Agco Corp. in a market where revenue was forecast to rise as much as sixfold in the next decade.

“The new tariffs kicked these guys in the knees when they were down,” Larry De Maria, a New York-based analyst with Sterne, Agee & Leach Inc., said in a telephone interview. “Russia was supposed to be a $3 billion market in 2008 with potential to grow to $20 billion, possibly in as little as a decade.”

293 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:30:29pm

"This widespread failure to distinguish between people and animals is a moral disease we may call animalism."

So Paris Hilton should pack a homeless person in her purse instead of a Chihuahua?

(what's he trying to say?)

294 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:31:05pm

re: #285 razorbacker

Speaking of evolution:

American UFO Spotted In Afghanistan

X45A UCAV

Youtube Video

and

Youtube Video
295 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:31:19pm

re: #292 3 wood

Russia is extending it's middle finger to the US with tariffs:

Putin’s Tariffs Stall Russian Growth for Caterpillar

It's all part of Obama's flawless, well-played plan.. you'll see!

/'

296 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:31:35pm

Wow.

The insanity has been ratcheted up to a level of blind fury. I went to the link, and read the article.

In and of itself, the premise dismisses any other argument totally. Charles, I know why you are pursuing this, although I only read mostly on these threads.

This has surpassed the cottage industry of ideologues, and really becoming a thorn in the side of even just being able to evaluate an argument, opinion, or point of view.

They are sowing the seeds of Pavlovian mob think concerning any of society's ills.

This is no different than the left who brandish their epithets at the mere hint of questioning their usual suspect arguments, only of a different stripe.

I think I can speak for some hear who might not post on every thread topic, but sit back and absorb, thanks for taking the bull by the horns.

The whole reason I eventually drifted towards leaning conservative is because it allowed for the examination of what you believe.

Deduction if you will.

297 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:31:37pm

re: #286 Slumbering Behemoth

I think it stemmed from him being a raving POS, and a general, all-around asshole.

Linky

Oh jeez. He's lucky all he got was getting disbarred. Did he get any jail time?

You know what would happen if you or I did that. As the saying goes.

298 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:31:38pm

re: #274 Shiplord Kirel

Full disclosure: I am not a Baptist but I probably would be if Baptist churches in this part of the world were not absolutely infested with; indeed, run by; creationists and other superstitious quacks.
The time-honored Baptist principle of separation of church and state is as extinct as Homo Habilis (whose existence they don't accept either.)

If you move here, I can name a couple of churches that don't have tht problem.

299 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:31:56pm

re: #264 mikeymom

i really think he has early alz--seriously.

Trying to figure out when Jimmy Carter got Alzheimer's is like trying to figure out when life starts in the womb. He's been crazy for so long, I'm gonna assume he was conceived that way.

300 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:19pm

re: #281 jcm

Nah, couldn't be, Jordon only started a little while ago.... I can't be that old.... nope, 3-wood, check your facts couldn't have been 23 years ago... just couldn't have been.

*denial*
*denial*
*denial*

From Designing Women:

Mary Jo: "That's a good question. Anthony, why do you think there aren't any professional black swimmers."

Anthony: "Oh, I can answer that. It's because no one has ever swum their way out of the ghetto. Believe me, if you could make millions every year as a professional swimmer, he wouldn't be Air Jordan, he'd be River Jordan!"

301 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:26pm

Who has #296?

#296?

302 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:31pm

re: #287 Occasional Reader

I would be much more worried if Obama was making them happy and welcoming them into the family. The banks are falling all over themselves to get away from TARP as soon as they can. This is a good thing.

303 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:31pm

has afrocity been on today--after her drubbing on the late night thread? just curious

304 Digital Display  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:38pm

Whoops..Just got here and while I was waiting for the page to reload..I read this: At the risk of being banned..
I am racing back thread..Be right back

305 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:39pm

re: #293 blackpajamas

"This widespread failure to distinguish between people and animals is a moral disease we may call animalism."

(what's he trying to say?)

It's a sly dig at Afghan shepherds.

306 Aye Pod  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:40pm

re: #202 OldLineTexan

Red Dwarf Rules.

For Kochansky (the original one) fans:

Youtube Video
307 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:32:53pm

re: #289 Last Mohican

I don't understand what's new. Haven't we had armed UAVs for some time now?

We've retrofitted recon UAV's with weapons, this one is designed as a combat drone.

308 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:33:17pm

re: #293 blackpajamas

When you started off with Paris Hilton, I thought you were going to go in a different direction, but instead you kept it clean.

I am so disappointed in you.
/

309 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:33:19pm

re: #301 Gus 802

Who has #296?

#296?

Dang - I had #286. I was so close!

310 pink freud  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:33:22pm

re: #288 OldLineTexan

HaagenDaaz was created to sound all European.

I ask you, what do Europeans know about ice cream? Nothing, that's what. They have Italian ices and glaces and what not, sure. Rum raisin, even. Cant give it to the kids.

Now Bluebell has a cow for a logo, and the creamery is right there in Brenham with the cows ... now that is fresh.

/

I sat in class for three hours dreaming of chocolate ice cream. That's as complicated as it is .....made a special trip to the store on the way home. It worked, too ...just exactly like choclate ice cream is supposed to. :-)

As for Brenham ...while their ice cream IS superb, their Antique Rose Emporium holds more appeal for me even that Amazon Chocolate. I LOVE that place.

311 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:33:36pm

re: #309 gmsc

Dang - I had #286. I was so close!

Nevermind what I said. :)

312 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:33:46pm

re: #288 OldLineTexan

Bluebell nanner puddin'....I'd fight for it.

313 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:33:47pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

I would be much more worried if Obama was making them happy and welcoming them into the family. The banks are falling all over themselves to get away from TARP as soon as they can. This is a good thing.

And that's all part of Obama's plan, eh?

Your faith is touch, Mr. Atheist.

314 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:01pm

"In media discussion of both stories, the ready availability of firearms was the theme most frequently commented upon and lamented. Protesting against the national "gun culture" was the point of Michael Moore's critically acclaimed and commercially successful documentary film Bowling for Columbine."

So what?

Is he trying to say that people should only be allowed to "evolve" to kill others by the dozen if they've trained for years at some kind of state-sponsored martial art?

315 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:02pm

re: #289 Last Mohican

I don't understand what's new. Haven't we had armed UAVs for some time now?

Ones that launch missiles yes, ones that take off from carrier decks with bomb bays and multiple munitions, not so much...

316 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:06pm

re: #307 jcm

We've retrofitted recon UAV's with weapons, this one is designed as a combat drone.

Ah, I see.

317 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:12pm

re: #303 mikeymom

has afrocity been on today--after her drubbing on the late night thread? just curious

How was she drubbed?

318 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:12pm
319 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:22pm

re: #294 jcm

Hajii meet The Terminator

320 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:23pm

re: #270 Last Mohican

LM, in your H&P's do you ever have anyone admit to it in the social history?

321 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:27pm

re: #283 gmsc

No--he thinks were stupid.

a few more pointless gestures:
Treat the bedsores on a cancer patient
Re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic
Put more "no smoking"signs on the Hindenburg.

322 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:33pm

Blaming Darwin for the crimes of twisted mis-interpreters of it is like blaming Charles for the mess I made by spewing a beverage on my computer, after reading that tripe.

323 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:34:36pm

re: #301 Gus 802

Who has #296?

#296?

Nevermind! I'm all overheated in my apartment and had a brain fart. :)

324 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:35:11pm

re: #303 mikeymom

Oh for the love of Pete--what happened to her?

325 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:35:16pm

re: #323 Gus 802
Open a window.

326 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:35:26pm

re: #301 Gus 802

Who has #296?

#296?

Was 296 really a meltdown post? It's not constructed perfectly but it dissects Klinghoffer's argument pretty nicely.

327 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:35:31pm

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

328 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:35:33pm

re: #305 Naso Tang

It's a sly dig at Afghan shepherds.

i always liked that breed of dogs/

329 lostlakehiker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:35:52pm

re: #276 blackpajamas

More specifically, to answer Mr. Andy Kessler's excellent question today:

So how is Fed chairman Ben Bernanke going to get all that toothpaste back into the tube?

The Fed has been cranking money out like water over Niagara Falls. The monetary base has increased by a trillion dollars in just the last six months.

And he's not done, furiously printing dollars (bank credits, really) and buying Treasuries in an attempt to flood the economy with dollars.

When will it end? $3 trillion? $4 trillion? And then what? A functioning economy doesn't need all that cash sloshing around. Is runaway inflation our next crisis?

I'll tell you how they will do it.

Correction, I'll tell you how they think they will do it -- because they won't be able to actually do it -- they will try, and they will fail; due to naivete, arrogance, short-sightedness, the council of 2nd and 3rd rate intellects (cf. Summers, Krugman, et al.), and they will fail, because they will gauge the market incorrectly.

Essentially, they are going to nationalize the banks, so that when the Fed goes to sell it's debt to the market and "private" banks, the non-private "private" banks will essentially do exactly as they say, and buy the debt at the prices they dictate to the banks.

That is their plan. Simple, stupid, short-sighted, and self-destructive.

Kiss your 401-K goodbye.

Otherwise, these bozos will use effectively all of it to "service" the thirteen trillion dollar spending spree that they've authorized by your wallet.

Krugman has a Nobel prize in economics. Summers is no slouch either. They may fail, and fail badly. It won't be because they're stupid, and it probably won't be because they're hopelessly arrogant. They've both had their share of defeats, and the chance to learn from them. They think they have an emergency on their hands and will have to let the future inflation just run its course. If the monetary base has just this one dose of inflation, and then is guided down to slow or no further growth, we'll have a spurt of inflation, a few years at 10-20%, and then it'll settle down. Nasty, but not the apocalypse.

330 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:02pm

re: #323 Gus 802


Nevermind! I'm all overheated in my apartment and had a brain fart. :)

Light a match!

331 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:10pm

re: #326 Zimriel

Was 296 really a meltdown post? It's not constructed perfectly but it dissects Klinghoffer's argument pretty nicely.

No. I know. I caught myself. ;)

332 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:11pm

re: #327 Charles

I thought it was the toe-biting thing?

333 pingjockey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:17pm

re: #327 Charles
That's been kept very quiet.

334 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:41pm

re: #330 Zimriel

Light a match!

Boom!

Darwin's fault! //

335 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:44pm

More banks possibly merging:
Morgan Stanley mulling buy of U.S. regional banks: report

TOKYO (MarketWatch) -- Morgan Stanley is considering the acquisition of U.S. regional banks in a move to boost the company's retail banking operations, according to an article in the Nikkei newspaper Tuesday.
"We are looking for potential opportunities to buy a bank that has a presence in an important market in the United States," Morgan Stanley's Chief Executive Offer John Mack said in an exclusive interview with Nikkei.
Morgan Stanley acquired Citigroup Inc.'s Smith Barney retail brokerage operations earlier this year.
In related news, Japan's largest banks made bids to buy a retail brokerage unit of Citigroup Inc. through a deal that may raise around 600 billion yen ($6 billion), according to a Japanese media report

336 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:53pm

re: #289 Last Mohican

I don't understand what's new. Haven't we had armed UAVs for some time now?

Flying wings. The real evolution will be when manned vs. unmanned tests are done. With the growth in sensor systems, and the vast pool of geek-type video-gamer flyboys, there will come a day when pilots are...less needed.

337 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:53pm

re: #297 Gus 802

I don't know if he did or not, but I would have liked to see that happen. I guess it's pretty obvious that I can't stand that a-hole, but I've never liked people that pull the "I'm gonna tell your mommy" move, especially when it comes from a grown man adult.

338 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:36:57pm

How can some banks return the TARP money they don't need without outing the banks that need it? It seems that once the weak ones were exposed, their depositors would flee.

339 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:01pm

re: #313 Occasional Reader

And that's all part of Obama's plan, eh?

Your faith is touching, Mr. Atheist.

blame it on the cabernet

340 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:05pm

It's just sad when cousins marry.

341 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:19pm

re: #274 Shiplord Kirel

Full disclosure: I am not a Baptist but I probably would be if Baptist churches in this part of the world were not absolutely infested with; indeed, run by; creationists and other superstitious quacks.
The time-honored Baptist principle of separation of church and state is as extinct as Homo Habilis (whose existence they don't accept either.)

It's depressing, isn't it? I was brought up Catholic, was married in a Methodist church, attended military chapel services with a rotating cast of Protestant chaplains, belonged to two different independent evangelical churches and one Baptist. I came across a lot of excellent people and received great teaching and spiritual counseling from some of those pastors. But good night nurse, the stupidity and bigotry of some of them boggles the mind.

342 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:34pm

re: #323 Gus 802

It's not so much the smell. It's the burning of my eyes.

343 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:44pm

re: #291 BigPapa

What took them so long to figure it out? Most of us here knew that this was what would happen. Jeebus.

I read this earlier. Interesting. IMHO the camels nose is already under the tent. It's too late. The fundamentals of this economy are in the process of being radically changed.

344 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:47pm
345 Racer X  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:49pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

I would be much more worried if Obama was making them happy and welcoming them into the family. The banks are falling all over themselves to get away from TARP as soon as they can. This is a good thing.

I hate it when I agree with you.

/kidding!

346 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:37:54pm

re: #317 Occasional Reader

How was she drubbed?

a lot of peeps here are thinking she not what she represents herself to be--and always blog pimping-just bad vibes--

347 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:04pm

re: #283 gmsc

OK, as requested:

I though George Soros was Dr. Evil, Obama is Number 2.

///

348 Dustyvet  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:10pm

re: #251 gmsc

OT: 30 years ago today, Jimmy Carter encountered the killer rabbit.

Youtube Video
349 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:13pm

re: #340 rawmuse

I think they were closer than that, judging from the result.

350 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:23pm

re: #342 calcajun

It's not so much the smell. It's the burning of my eyes.

I hate it when that happens. =)~

351 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:30pm

"Whether on aggressively Hitlerian web sites like Stormfront.org or in the comparatively restrained writings of the popular Louisiana racist David Duke, discussions of evolution and white supremacy are a common theme."

Well, there is a 1st Amendment, and a lot of non-crazies word hard to keep it that way; even if the Storm-frontal Lobotomists use it to howl like Janeane Garafalo trapped in a washing machine.

352 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:32pm

re: #295 Occasional Reader

It's all part of Obama's flawless, well-played plan.. you'll see!

I was surprised to hear that Chavez gave Obama that US hating book. I figured Obama loaned it to Chavez first.

353 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:35pm

re: #286 Slumbering Behemoth

I think it stemmed from him being a raving POS, and a general, all-around asshole.

Linky

Wow, this guy gives drooling lunatics a bad name.
Jack Thompson at wikipedia

John Bruce "Jack" Thompson (born July 25, 1951) is an American activist and former attorney, based in Coral Gables, Florida. Thompson, a member of the Christian right,[1] is known for his public advocacy of conservative Christian moral standards, and for his role as an anti-video-game activist, particularly against violence and/or sex in video games.[2][3][4]

After a foray into politics, Thompson concentrated his legal efforts against perceived obscenity, particularly in rap music and broadcasts by radio personality Howard Stern. More recently, he has focused on violence, particularly in the content of computer and video games and their alleged effects on children.[5] Thompson is a vocal advocate of banning stylized violence in video games, a role for which he became known in 1997 while representing the parents of the three students killed in the Heath High School shooting.

Thompson's involvement with music, gaming, and the media (and especially use of legal threats) has raised questions about First Amendment rights. In 2008, Thompson was permanently disbarred by the Florida Supreme Court for inappropriate conduct, including making false statements to tribunals and disparaging and humiliating litigants.[6][7]

Some years ago, it was regarded as UnChristian to lie to a court of law, but it is hard to tell what the standards are these days.

354 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:40pm

re: #303 mikeymom

has afrocity been on today--after her drubbing on the late night thread? just curious

Oh, dear. What happened this time?

355 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:38:48pm

re: #310 pink freud

Haagen Dazs does make a scrumptious Pineapple-Coconut flavor. My fav right now.

356 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:39:01pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

What would be your take on the initiative then?

Was this an attempt to have the banks get their act together, or was his aim to actually have government ownership in private industry?

357 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:39:15pm

re: #327 Charles

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

You left out the lopsided mouth and the tongue that makes it hard for words to come out without slobbering.

358 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:39:15pm

re: #321 calcajun

No--he thinks were stupid.

a few more pointless gestures:
Treat the bedsores on a cancer patient
Re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic
Put more "no smoking"signs on the Hindenburg.

The smoking lounge on the Hindenburg.

The smoking room, seemingly dangerous in an airship filled with hydrogen, was kept under positive pressure to prevent any of the gas from entering. A single electric lighter was provided to light your pipe, cigar or cigarette.
359 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:39:30pm

re: #346 mikeymom

Hmm. She seemed on the level for the past weeks. Maybe it's just not knowing etiquette.

360 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:39:53pm

re: #327 Charles

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

I didn't know that. Wow. And he's always seemed slimy to me too.

361 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:40:01pm

re: #352 3 wood

I was surprised to hear that Chavez gave Obama that US hating book. I figured Obama loaned it to Chavez first.

On that topic...

362 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:40:55pm

re: #344 taxfreekiller

Do not, under any circumstances pay attention to the HUGE BULL SHITTING IN YOUR LIVING ROOMS.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

its just hostage taking, not to worry, its just Zeta enforcers, its just
the coyotes escorting islamic terrorist into your home land

not to worry

It's our fault........
/BHO

363 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:40:58pm

Did you hear they finally broke Janeane Garafalo using torture?

Soap and water boarding.

364 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:40:59pm

re: #327 Charles

No, but I do now.

I swear I also read somewhere that he was involved with Odinga's as well.

Opportunist.

365 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:41:04pm

re: #341 doppelganglander

It's depressing, isn't it? I was brought up Catholic, was married in a Methodist church, attended military chapel services with a rotating cast of Protestant chaplains, belonged to two different independent evangelical churches and one Baptist. I came across a lot of excellent people and received great teaching and spiritual counseling from some of those pastors. But good night nurse, the stupidity and bigotry of some of them boggles the mind.

Because there are no stupid or bigoted people OUTSIDE a church, right?

At least in the church, they're not on the street.

It's like midnight basketball, except tax-free.

/I would rather go to church with some of the bigots than got to Hell with all of them ;)

366 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:41:05pm

re: #358 jcm

Now that's a "dedicated" smoker. I don't think I would even consider smoking on the Hindenberg. Last year some dummy was smoking on a flight line during an air show. I was tempted to chew him out.

367 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:41:06pm

re: #259 Zimriel

[Video]

re: #348 Dustyvet

[Video]

As long as we're getting a theme of bunny videos going here . . .

Youtube Video
368 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:41:21pm

re: #327 Charles

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

Not a clue.

I never could take him seriously. Whenever I saw him, I always thought of him as, "he who sucks upon the toes of prostitutes," which sounds like an elaborate insult, but in his case, is merely descriptive.

369 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:41:33pm

re: #327 Charles

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

I've always found him repulsive and have never understood why anyone or any network would give him the time of day.

370 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:42:07pm

re: #351 blackpajamas

"Whether on aggressively Hitlerian web sites like Stormfront.org or in the comparatively restrained writings of the popular Louisiana racist David Duke, discussions of evolution and white supremacy are a common theme."

Well, there is a 1st Amendment, and a lot of non-crazies word hard to keep it that way; even if the Storm-frontal Lobotomists use it to howl like Janeane Garafalo trapped in a washing machine.

SALUTE!

371 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:42:18pm

Another anniversary of another infamous crime.

This one with an inspirational outcome.

372 Dustyvet  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:42:42pm

re: #367 gmsc

As long as we're getting a theme of bunny videos going here . . .

Splitting hares...:)

373 solomonpanting  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:42:51pm

re: #293 blackpajamas

"This widespread failure to distinguish between people and animals is a moral disease we may call animalism."

So Paris Hilton should pack a homeless person in her purse instead of a Chihuahua?

(what's he trying to say?)

Some folks knocking humans down a rung or two and placing them on the same moral plane as animals.

374 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:42:56pm

re: #369 Bobblehead

I've always found him repulsive and have never understood why anyone or any network would give him the time of day.

Everyone kept hoping for more titillating details about the Clintons.

375 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:43:07pm

re: #327 Charles


Morris and Luntz should form some kind of partnership.

376 HelloDare  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:43:13pm

re: #327 Charles

re: #351 blackpajamas

In the "Let's Hope They Don't Mate File":

Janeane Garafalo and Dick Morris

377 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:43:48pm

re: #351 blackpajamas

"Whether on aggressively Hitlerian web sites like Stormfront.org or in the comparatively restrained writings of the popular Louisiana racist David Duke, discussions of evolution and white supremacy are a common theme."

Well, there is a 1st Amendment, and a lot of non-crazies word hard to keep it that way; even if the Storm-frontal Lobotomists use it to howl like Janeane Garafalo trapped in a washing machine.

Couldn't we stick her in the dryer instead? Pretty please?

378 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:43:57pm

re: #364 formercorpsman

Opportunist.

And as I'm sure you know, he was in the Clinton Administration, as well.

379 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:44:12pm

Was Morris involved with a hooker?

380 Danny  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:44:16pm

re: #327 Charles

Being adviser to Bill Clinton was enought to do it for me.

381 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:44:23pm

re: #376 HelloDare

re: #351 blackpajamas

In the "Let's Hope They Don't Mate File":

Janeane Garafalo and Dick Morris

Not even Dick Morris would suck on her toes. Really.

I actively dislike that woman.

382 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:44:27pm

re: #327 Charles

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

Cripes. It never ends with these people.

383 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:44:39pm

re: #366 Gus 802

Now that's a "dedicated" smoker. I don't think I would even consider smoking on the Hindenberg. Last year some dummy was smoking on a flight line during an air show. I was tempted to chew him out.

That's not a dedicated smoker. This is a dedicated smoker.

384 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:44:59pm

re: #329 lostlakehiker

Krugman has a Nobel prize in economics.

So does Al Gore.

Summers is no slouch either.

Indeed. I didn't say they weren't crafty. Just that in their craftiness, they use that craftiness to screw us out of our money -- which ultimately reduces their incomes too (just not as fast) -- ergo their lack of foresight and cranial constipation.

:-)

385 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:45:07pm

re: #379 formercorpsman

Was Morris involved with a hooker?

I so love innocence...

386 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:45:15pm

re: #374 Dianna

Everyone kept hoping for more titillating details about the Clintons.

Unfortunately, you're probably correct; and, if that is the case, they've been played for the fools they are.

387 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:45:18pm

re: #379 formercorpsman

Was Morris involved with a hooker?

Yes.

He was involved with more than one. I don't remember how it all came out, but I remember that he paid them so he could suck on their toes.

Thus, my remark about what I think whenever I see him.

388 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:45:53pm

re: #383 gmsc

That's not a dedicated smoker. This is a dedicated smoker.

Ah, Tom Mullica. You mentioned him a couple of weeks ago and that he stopped doing that act. No that's a walking fire hazard. Or was a walking fire hazard. :)

389 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:45:56pm

re: #383 gmsc

That's not a dedicated smoker. This is a dedicated smoker.

He's a piker. I saw a man smoking through his trach tube with a IV drip stand in his free hand.

390 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:46:19pm

re: #387 Dianna

I remember seeing some nail salon was using fish for that.

391 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:46:33pm
392 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:46:38pm
393 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:46:52pm

re: #361 Occasional Reader

I think Obama is very comfortable hanging out with folks like Chavez. He will likely be very comfortable with Castro.

They are like brothers.

394 lostlakehiker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:46:57pm

re: #351 blackpajamas

"Whether on aggressively Hitlerian web sites like Stormfront.org or in the comparatively restrained writings of the popular Louisiana racist David Duke, discussions of evolution and white supremacy are a common theme."

Well, there is a 1st Amendment, and a lot of non-crazies word hard to keep it that way; even if the Storm-frontal Lobotomists use it to howl like Janeane Garafalo trapped in a washing machine.

An honest discussion of evolution and "white supremacy" would encounter the disconcerting-for-whitey fact that IQ tests do not rank whites at the tippy top.

395 Aviator  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:46:58pm

re: #389 OldLineTexan

He's a piker. I saw a man smoking through his trach tube with a IV drip stand in his free hand.

Saw that almost everyday at the VA hospital.

396 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:47:02pm

re: #327 Charles

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

There's a rumour among British blogs that UKIP was being quietly supported by Labour and the Lib Dems, as a means to split the BNP vote in their constituencies. The UKIP melted down late last year and then offered to make a pact with the BNP. The BNP smelt blood and rebuffed them. (This last is what Nick Griffin wrote up in his "BNP Chronicle" 4 November 2008; I ain't linking to his material here. Griffin is a revolting creature and I normally wouldn't give him credence, but his contempt for this fallen rival is probably genuine.)

397 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:47:05pm

re: #387 Dianna

Are we against consensual adults indulging in toe-sucking?

398 mfarmer1  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:47:06pm

Evolution? Right now, I'm more interested in reincarnation if this review of the new Star Trek movie is anything even close to reality:

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Cannot wait for May 8th!

399 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:47:11pm

re: #379 formercorpsman

Was Morris involved with a hooker?

He was on the phone advising BJ Clinton about some crisis or another while sucking on the the toes of one IIRC.

400 capitalist piglet  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:47:46pm

re: #360 Sharmuta

I didn't know that. Wow. And he's always seemed slimy to me too.

Dick Morris is kind of a whore, I think. He'll pretty much do whatever if the price is right.

401 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:47:53pm

re: #390 jaunte

I remember seeing some nail salon was using fish for that.

teh litl sea kittehs eet teh ded skin frum ur feet. it tikles.

Debriding dead flash can be pretty nasty and painful.

402 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:48:10pm

re: #387 Dianna

Yes.

He was involved with more than one. I don't remember how it all came out, but I remember that he paid them so he could suck on their toes.

Thus, my remark about what I think whenever I see him.

Just toe sucking? Then what's the problem?

//////////////

403 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:48:17pm

re: #381 Dianna

Not even Dick Morris would suck on her toes. Really

Aaaaaiiiiieee!

* must brain-bleach image from mind ... *

404 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:48:19pm

re: #393 3 wood

I think Obama is very comfortable hanging out with folks like Chavez. He will likely be very comfortable with Castro.

They are like brothers.

Wow, Malcolm X sure got around. Older than I thought too.
/

405 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:48:27pm

re: #399 jcm

He was on the phone advising BJ Clinton about some crisis or another while sucking on the the toes of one IIRC.

He and Clinton both gave new meaning to the term "multi-tasking".

406 Sharmuta  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:48:59pm

re: #400 capitalist piglet

Dick Morris is kind of a whore, I think. He'll pretty much do whatever if the price is right.

He gives us sharmutas a bad name.

407 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:49:10pm

re: #378 Dar ul Harb

I knew that. Actually, none of that surprises me.

It has been my opinion that quite a few of those inside people move fluidly from side to side.

On occasion, Morris has written some interesting opinion, so from the angle of an insider putting their thoughts paper is perhaps a little different angle on some issues.

All in all, they are just grease-balls.

408 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:49:11pm

re: #401 OldLineTexan

Dick Morris in the tank with the other goldfish.

409 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:49:26pm

Ahhhh

Freon

410 Lightspeed  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:49:35pm

In what parallel universe does this make sense? The morons who spew this garbage are living in a warped reality where the quest for a better understanding of the workings of the natural world is considered and affront to God and a footpath to evil and genocide. Science is the concrete expression of man's power to focus his vast ability to reason on the underpinnings of reality itself. Gravity, magnetism, evolution, all theories, describe the mechanics of our universe based on observable and testable evidence. All of these theories have been and will continue to be refined and expanded. To attack one of these, evolution, on the basis of milennia old spiritual teachings is simply ludicrous and wrong, just as the Catholic Church's attacks on Copernicus and Galileo were. What century is this, anyway?

The real reason that acceptance of evolution is such a threat to the Tenders of the Flocks is that it contradicts, at least on the surface, one of the only scientificly describable/provable areas the bible touches upon -- the creation of the universe, the Earth, animals, and mankind. If science can show that the creation stories put forth in Genesis are not literally true and are only allegorical, then why should anyone believe the rest of the Bible is true? Hey, if the very first chapter of the book is waaaaayyy off-base, how can you possibly trust any of the other stuff? The Great Flood and Noah? Please, no boat could hold two of every species. The plagues of Egypt? Yawn, all scientifically explainable. Water into wine? Healing the sick? Resurrection? Hrmph, seen Copperfield do it all and then some. In the mind of a Fundamentalist Christian, if you knock down the first domino of Genisis, the rest of the Bible will fall as well. God is infalliable and God wrote the Bible. End of story.

The greatest gift of mankind, God-given or otherwise, is the power to think, to reason. Those who seek to supress and deny reason seek to supress the truth. And remember, God is the Way, the Light, and the Truth. Deny reason and deny God.

I doubt seriously that God celebrates morons.

411 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:49:42pm

re: #363 blackpajamas

Did you hear they finally broke Janeane Garafalo using torture?

Soap and water boarding.

Didn't they also wax her brow and shave her, too?

412 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:49:44pm

re: #397 rawmuse

Are we against consensual adults indulging in toe-sucking?

I am, but I had a lot of problems with athlete's foot when I was young.

413 Truck Monkey  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:04pm

re: #400 capitalist piglet

Dick Morris is kind of a whore, I think. He'll pretty much do whatever if the price is right.

Hence the love affair with both the Clintons and now Fox News. Conjoin the words "dirt" and "bag" and that describes Penis Morris.

414 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:06pm

re: #409 Gus 802

Ahhhh

Freon


Still passing gas?

415 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:19pm

re: #390 jaunte

I remember seeing some nail salon was using fish for that.

Supposedly, the fish will eat your calluses, leaving your feet soft, smooth and perfect.

Personally, I would rather not let anything nibble on my toes.

416 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:23pm

re: #384 blackpajamas

I correct myself: Al Gore does not have a Nobel in Economics -- but he might as well have for all the financial-environmental impact he's got on the un-elected bureaucrats at the EPA (who want to regulate the amount of CO2 we breath).

417 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:26pm

re: #365 OldLineTexan

Because there are no stupid or bigoted people OUTSIDE a church, right?

At least in the church, they're not on the street.

It's like midnight basketball, except tax-free.

/I would rather go to church with some of the bigots than got to Hell with all of them ;)

Sure, but the ones outside the church aren't claiming to have the inside scoop on God's will, telling you that if you don't believe the Bible is literally true (in the King James Version, preferably) down to the last comma you're going to hell, and gossiping in the guise of prayer requests.

I live on the damn buckle of the Bible belt and I cannot find a church with intelligent, intellectually curious people who have interests beyond Bible study and scrapbooking (the ladies, anyway). My husband gave up completely and became a Hindu. Really.

418 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:34pm

re: #414 BignJames

Still passing gas?

Nope. Well, almost.

419 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:45pm

re: #385 rawmuse

I always thought of myself as trying to be an inside baseball type of thinker. Well, at least in my own mind.

This one thing I was not aware of.

Feet, huh.

420 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:50:50pm

One thing I don't like about the BNP's website: they have the effrontery to run a picture of Winston Churchill in a banner which is titled "Battle for Britain".

I believe I will not read further that site

421 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:07pm
422 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:16pm

re: #412 Shiplord Kirel

I am, but I had a lot of problems with athlete's foot when I was young.

Did you bite your toenails? I hear that can cause it.

423 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:17pm

re: #271 mikeymom

i have never paid for weed--course its been yrs--what is the going price? just axin'

I made some calls.

$75 to $200 per oz.

Homie says get the $100/oz. Cheap stuff is ditchweed; expensive stuff is ripoff.

424 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:25pm

re: #417 doppelganglander

Sure, but the ones outside the church aren't claiming to have the inside scoop on God's will, telling you that if you don't believe the Bible is literally true (in the King James Version, preferably) down to the last comma you're going to hell, and gossiping in the guise of prayer requests.

I live on the damn buckle of the Bible belt and I cannot find a church with intelligent, intellectually curious people who have interests beyond Bible study and scrapbooking (the ladies, anyway). My husband gave up completely and became a Hindu. Really.

I see you have not met Al Gore.

/

425 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:34pm

re: #353 Shiplord Kirel

Some years ago, it was regarded as UnChristian to lie to a court of law, but it is hard to tell what the standards are these days.

Wow, that guy is a creationist troll writ large. Glad he got disbarred, but I wonder if he'll do what other trolls do and publish a Dramatic Goodbye?

426 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:38pm

re: #397 rawmuse

Are we against consensual adults indulging in toe-sucking?

Only when one party is paying the other.

Consenting adults may perform any act they like upon each other, provided there are no children involved, and the bruises fade in a week.

427 lostlakehiker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:40pm

re: #406 Sharmuta

He gives us sharmutas a bad name.

You gave yourself that screen name. :-)

428 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:44pm
429 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:51:50pm

re: #415 Dianna

I grew up beside a lake full of hungry perch, which would keep the human swimmers jumping at feeding time.

430 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:52:06pm

re: #420 Zimriel

One thing I don't like about the BNP's website: they have the effrontery to run a picture of Winston Churchill in a banner which is titled "Battle for Britain".

I believe I will not read further that site

They should take it down and put up a banner for Lord Haw Haw.

431 jorline  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:52:20pm

The fox is guarding the hen house.

Key Obama Climate Change Exchange Being Swayed by Top U.N. Officials


Five members of the Chicago Climate Exchange advisory board are present or former top-ranking U.N. officials -- including one who received $1 million from a convicted South Korean lobbyist in the Oil for Food scandal.

The most controversial figure of the five, Maurice Strong, was one of former Secretary General Kofi Annan's key aides at the U.N. for years until the Iraq Oil-for-Food scandal forced him to leave. Since then Strong has lived mostly in China. Calls to the exchange for comment about Strong's role, and that of other U.N. figures, were not returned.

The Chicago Climate Exchange is the brainchild of Richard Sandor, an economics professor who has worked for the both the Chicago Mercantile Association and the Chicago Board of Trade. Known as "Mr. Derivative," for his work in creating interest rate futures markets, Sandor first proposed the creation of the climate exchange in 2000, just before the signing of the Kyoto Accord on greenhouse gas reduction.

Initial funding of almost $1 million which was crucial to the exchange's launch came in 2000 and 2001 from the Chicago-based Joyce Foundation, whose board of directors, which approved the funding, included Barack Obama, then an Illinois state senator.

432 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:52:35pm

re: #421 Iron Fist

Define hooker...

Tow truck driver?

433 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:52:39pm

re: #419 formercorpsman

Asking if Dick Morris was involved with hookers is like asking Ms. Keebler if she likes elves... :)

434 axegrinder  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:52:47pm

re: #360 Sharmuta

I didn't know that. Wow. And he's always seemed slimy to me too.

He is a superb political consultant. If the GOP has used his services we might have a conservative president right now. He did wonders for Clinton. The man is intuitive and reads the public well. I don't know him personally and don't have any feelings for or against him. Just an acknowledgment of his skills.

435 freedombilly  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:52:50pm

OT: Here is a status update from a "friend" of mine on facebook:

"Billy" wishes Obama had the courage to prosecute torturers. Whatever else he stands for, whatever good he does, as of the moment he announced today that he will not prosecute he is officially an international war criminal and co-conspirator. The "peaceful revolution" was fun while it lasted, but apparently we haven't gotten anywhere after all.

Gotta love them turning on their own Messiah.

436 OldLineTexan  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:53:01pm

re: #415 Dianna

Supposedly, the fish will eat your calluses, leaving your feet soft, smooth and perfect.

Personally, I would rather not let anything nibble on my toes.

Aw, c'mon, What if he asked nicely?

/

437 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:53:26pm

re: #411 calcajun

Didn't they also wax her brow and shave her, too?

And also colored inside the lines of her tattoos with crayola markers.

438 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:53:37pm

re: #432 jcm

Tow truck driver?

Golf player who needs to work on his/her swing?

439 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:53:41pm

re: #368 Dianna

Not a clue.

I never could take him seriously. Whenever I saw him, I always thought of him as, "he who sucks upon the toes of prostitutes," which sounds like an elaborate insult, but in his case, is merely descriptive.

It amuses me to know that he had to pay extra for the 'privilege'.

440 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:54:27pm

re: #399 jcm

Youtube Video
441 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:54:38pm

re: #411 calcajun

Didn't they also wax her brow and shave her, too?

Only if were to preserve her sense of self worth:

"Closer to home, in America in the 21st century, evolutionary theory lends support to moral relativism and the increasingly widespread notion that a human being possesses no more innate dignity than any other beast."

442 BignJames  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:54:45pm

re: #438 Occasional Reader

Golf player who needs to work on his/her swing?

That's a duck hooker.

443 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:54:55pm
444 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:55:02pm

re: #421 Iron Fist

I'm up to speed now brother....

445 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:55:09pm

re: #429 jaunte

I grew up beside a lake full of hungry perch, which would keep the human swimmers jumping at feeding time.


Do you recognize any of them here?
Hungry perch

446 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:55:17pm

re: #398 mfarmer1

Evolution? Right now, I'm more interested in reincarnation if this review of the new Star Trek movie is anything even close to reality:

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Cannot wait for May 8th!

Interesting.. The guy who plays McCoy looks amazingly like the original. Also the movie features Bruce Greenwood as Capt. Pike. He's a great actor.

447 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:55:47pm

re: #424 OldLineTexan

I see you have not met Al Gore.

/

Ha! Different religion, same hymnbook.

448 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:55:56pm

re: #398 mfarmer1

Evolution? Right now, I'm more interested in reincarnation if this review of the new Star Trek movie is anything even close to reality:

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Cannot wait for May 8th!

Eh, it turns out that the whole movie is just about Obama and how dreamy and wonderful he is.

At least, that's the way the Times of London saw it. Allow me to direct you to my post on the previous thread.

449 axegrinder  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:56:01pm

re: #423 razorbacker

I made some calls.

$75 to $200 per oz.

Homie says get the $100/oz. Cheap stuff is ditchweed; expensive stuff is ripoff.

Jeez Louiz. What happened to the dime bag? Gotta be rich to smoke it up these days.

450 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:56:12pm

re: #436 OldLineTexan

Aw, c'mon, What if he asked nicely?

/

No.

451 Aviator  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:56:16pm

re: #411 calcajun

Didn't they also wax her brow and shave her, too?

I think they would have to use a cheese grater instead of a razor.

452 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:56:37pm

re: #445 Naso Tang

#429 jaunte


Do you recognize any of them here?
Hungry perch

We've got some salons in our area that offer that service.

453 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:57:06pm

re: #439 razorbacker

It amuses me to know that he had to pay extra for the 'privilege'.

Would you let that man's mouth near your feet?

454 3 wood  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:58:13pm

I'll leave you with this cheery news:

Obama proposes $100 billion U.S. loan for IMF

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama on Monday proposed a $100 billion U.S. loan to the International Monetary Fund to boost the IMF's resources and urged a bigger stake in the IMF for emerging powers.

In a letter to U.S. congressional leaders, Obama said the U.S. funding "does not represent a budgetary expenditure or any increase in the deficit since it effectively represents an exchange of assets."

The $100 billion is part of commitments made by Group of 20 countries at a London summit on April 2, which agreed to triple IMF resources to a total of $750 billion to help the IMF respond to crises in emerging market economies as a result of the global financial crisis and economic downturn.

And the beat goes on. There is no such thing as spending too much money with this guy.

Good night.

455 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:58:22pm

re: #449 axegrinder

Jeez Louiz. What happened to the dime bag? Gotta be rich to smoke it up these days.

The days of the four finger, $10 bag have gone the way of the Pinto, the Chevette, and really big hair.

456 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:58:26pm

If evolution is real, how do you explain this phenomenon?

//

457 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:58:51pm

re: #452 Bobblehead

There used to be a brackish pool or lagoon on the Big Island around Puna where you could wade in and the small fish would rid you of any dead skin on your suppurating wounds. I am not making this up. It was a folk remedy.

458 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:59:16pm

re: #448 Last Mohican

Eh, it turns out that the whole movie is just about Obama and how dreamy and wonderful he is.

At least, that's the way the Times of London saw it. Allow me to direct you to my post on the previous thread.

I think they may be reading a bit too much into it. As for all the hopey changey optimism..well we know that's disappearing as fast as our 401k balances.

459 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:59:35pm

re: #434 axegrinder

He is a superb political consultant. If the GOP has used his services we might have a conservative president right now. He did wonders for Clinton. The man is intuitive and reads the public well. I don't know him personally and don't have any feelings for or against him. Just an acknowledgment of his skills.

Yeah, great idea. Let's put a guy who advises the BNP and was busted for hanging out with prostitutes in charge of consulting the GOP.

What could go wrong?

460 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:59:37pm

re: #448 Last Mohican

Good lord. From your second link:

It died a death during the Bush years in 2005, but it’s back. I’m talking of course, about the American Dream...There was always a very close relationship between the American Dream — not to mention American imperialism — and Star Trek, with its liberal, secular, multiracial, technophiliac vision of the future.

A couple of thoughts:

1) Yeah, it was terrible how the horrible Bush years had no "multiracialism", wasn't it? (Powell, Rice... oh, never mind.)

2) So.. the original Star Trek was "imperalist", but now, that's a good thing? As long as it's Obama imperialism?

461 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:59:57pm

re: #453 Dianna

I don't even like getting a massage. I guess it is a vulnerability thing for me.

Back scratch, sure.

Feet, I don't get it. Something pathological with that.

462 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:00:06pm

re: #397 rawmuse

Are we against consensual adults indulging in toe-sucking?

I kissed a Saudi girl's feet once...

/wait, I did that one already

463 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:00:08pm

re: #453 Dianna

I'll respectfully decline. Some things you can't even get a feral hog to do.

464 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:00:25pm

re: #456 gmsc

If evolution is real, how do you explain this phenomenon?

//

Man. What country are those pics from? ;)

465 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:00:26pm

re: #417 doppelganglander

I know some ladies who study the Bible pretty intensely, and they are probably the smartest people I have ever had the privilege to know. But not a one goes to church.

466 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:00:48pm

re: #452 Bobblehead

We've got some salons in our area that offer that service.

WA State leg banned that (other state also).

467 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:00:58pm

re: #460 Occasional Reader

Good lord. From your second link:

A couple of thoughts:

1) Yeah, it was terrible how the horrible Bush years had no "multiracialism", wasn't it? (Powell, Rice... oh, never mind.)

2) So.. the original Star Trek was "imperalist", but now, that's a good thing? As long as it's Obama imperialism?

Now, now. Star Trek is very much about the 0bama ideal. For example, nobody in Star Trek has any money, and banks are non-existent.

468 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:01:19pm

re: #327 Charles

Did you folks know that Fox News commentator Dick Morris was an adviser to the UKIP -- the cleaned-up version of the neo-Nazi British National Party?

I knew there was a reason for my instinctive revulsion for this man, besides his predilection for prostitutes and his toad-like appearance.

Not disagreeing, but what's your source for that?

469 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:01:22pm

re: #464 Gus 802

Man. What country are those pics from? ;)

A far away foreign country called "New York".
;)

470 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:01:24pm
471 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:02:48pm

re: #434 axegrinder

He is a superb political consultant. If the GOP has used his services we might have a conservative president right now. He did wonders for Clinton. The man is intuitive and reads the public well. I don't know him personally and don't have any feelings for or against him. Just an acknowledgment of his skills.

He's a mercenary, but he has his uses. We should keep him at some distance, but he can be helpful and insightful.

472 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:02:51pm

re: #469 gmsc

A far away foreign country called "New York".
;)

Those giant sunglass. Sheesh. They think it's a 70s style but actually our mothers were wearing those giant sunglasses during the 70s and back they weren't considered cool.

Maybe the giant glasses during the 80s.

/Unfortunately.

473 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:03:02pm

re: #456 gmsc

If evolution is real, how do you explain this phenomenon?

//

Slingblade Poppins. lol.

474 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:03:15pm

Good night.

475 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:03:20pm

re: #456 gmsc

If evolution is real, how do you explain this phenomenon?

//

Bobblehead's theory of Retrograde Devolution. The beta male can only evolve so far and then nature takes its course.

476 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:03:29pm

re: #474 Occasional Reader

Good night.

'Night.

477 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:04:07pm

re: #473 jaunte

Yeah, and the one with the avocado.

Too damn much.

478 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:04:55pm

re: #468 The Sanity Inspector

Not disagreeing, but what's your source for that?

It's not hard to find. Google 'dick morris adviser ukip'.

479 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:05:24pm

OT: Anyone see this? NSA intercepts calls of Rep
Jane Harman

480 Lightspeed  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:05:43pm

re: #468 The Sanity Inspector

Not disagreeing, but what's your source for that?

Try this link:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

481 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:05:54pm

re: #456 gmsc

Those folks look exactly like someone called Central Casting and said "Send us some drug addicts"

482 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:06:20pm

re: #475 Bobblehead

Bobblehead's theory of Retrograde Devolution. The beta male can only evolve so far and then nature takes its course.

I used to get angry at all the people ahead of me in line at the super market, but I would always follow in line like a sheep for low prices. I was an Alpha-beta male.

483 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:06:25pm

re: #465 Wishing

I know some ladies who study the Bible pretty intensely, and they are probably the smartest people I have ever had the privilege to know. But not a one goes to church.

They sound like women I'd like to meet. Too many of the Bible studies I went to involved following along in a paperback from the Christian bookstore. The studies I really enjoyed were with a leader who knew Greek and Hebrew and could put things in historical and cultural context. He was a rare one.

484 mfarmer1  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:06:57pm

re: #448 Last Mohican

Eh, it turns out that the whole movie is just about Obama and how dreamy and wonderful he is.

At least, that's the way the Times of London saw it. Allow me to direct you to my post on the previous thread.

Good grief. Bush killed off Star Trek too? Can't we have just one public activity anymore that doesn't drag Bush/Obama into the mix? This is just getting beyond weird and almost intolerable now from all sides.

Just bought four tickets for an IMAX presentation on May 7th. Screw Bush. Screw Obama. Screw pirates. Screw the economy. Please insane world, just leave me alone with all of your endless crap for a measly 2.5 hours, that's all I ask.

485 Lightspeed  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:07:09pm

re: #468 The Sanity Inspector

Not disagreeing, but what's your source for that?

Better link:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

486 axegrinder  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:07:34pm

re: #459 Charles

Hey, we got a President who's spiritual adviser is a black liberation theologist and had a close association with a know terrorist. Didn't seem to hurt him too much. Please don't kick me of your website.

487 Last Mohican  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:07:57pm

re: #478 Charles

It's not hard to find. Google 'dick morris adviser ukip'.

He was apparently their chief campaign advisor for the 2004 elections, in which the UKIP was greatly successful.

What I didn't know about was UKIP's links to the BNP. But then, I don't know much about British politics.

488 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:08:34pm

re: #486 axegrinder
Thou dost have a point or two there.

489 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:09:01pm

re: #481 rawmuse

Those folks look exactly like someone called Central Casting and said "Send us some drug addicts"

Those photos would have fit perfectly in our "Send In The Clowns" thread earlier today.

490 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:09:06pm

re: #459 Charles

Yeah, great idea. Let's put a guy who advises the BNP and was busted for hanging out with prostitutes in charge of consulting the GOP.

What could go wrong?

Uh... Dick Morris was running an anti BNP campaign. His slogan 'space not race' in 2004 was done to shame BNP supporters who were then rallying around 'space and race'. He was trying to run the BNP off the board in a roundabout means to create a conservative, free-market alternative to the Tories. (I got this from RedAction's analysis in July 2004, a fairly hardcore left / socialist site. Again: I don't give those guys a lot of credence, but if even they are saying that Morris was running an anti BNP campaign, I believe them.)

491 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:09:11pm

re: #423 razorbacker

I made some calls.

$75 to $200 per oz.

Homie says get the $100/oz. Cheap stuff is ditchweed; expensive stuff is ripoff.


soo--for $10 i get oregano?

492 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:09:49pm

re: #486 axegrinder

Hey, we got a President who's spiritual adviser is a black liberation theologist and had a close association with a know terrorist. Didn't seem to hurt him too much. Please don't kick me of your website.

And we've point that out often and early here.

493 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:10:18pm

re: #483 doppelganglander

They sound like women I'd like to meet. Too many of the Bible studies I went to involved following along in a paperback from the Christian bookstore. The studies I really enjoyed were with a leader who knew Greek and Hebrew and could put things in historical and cultural context. He was a rare one.

That is precisely what we do! And it is a blast! We study OT and NT, meet once a week online. Women from Alaska to Maine. Quite a group!

494 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:10:27pm

re: #486 axegrinder

Oh, for Pete's sake. Think there might be a slight difference between a legitimately elected president and a scumbag political consultant who digs prostitutes and takes money from neo-Nazis?

495 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:10:36pm

re: #461 formercorpsman

I don't even like getting a massage. I guess it is a vulnerability thing for me.

Back scratch, sure.

Feet, I don't get it. Something pathological with that.

bestest ever? slow light butt rubs.

496 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:10:45pm

re: #491 mikeymom

You could always use it in your soup.

*Name that Cheech and Chong riff*

497 solomonpanting  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:11:13pm

re: #486 axegrinder

Hey, we got a President who's spiritual adviser is a black liberation theologist and had a close association with a know terrorist. Didn't seem to hurt him too much.

And do you hold either of those in high regard?

(And if Billy jumped off a cliff you would, too?)

498 rawmuse  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:11:27pm

Pot growing is big money. In my neighborhood, some growers bought some houses (way before the market softened) and converted them to grow houses. Turned out it was a MS13 run operation. They never would have caught them except they were crummy electricians and their grow lights burnt the houses down.

499 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:11:41pm

re: #490 Zimriel

Uh... Dick Morris was running an anti BNP campaign. His slogan 'space not race' in 2004 was done to shame BNP supporters who were then rallying around 'space and race'. He was trying to run the BNP off the board in a roundabout means to create a conservative, free-market alternative to the Tories. (I got this from RedAction's analysis in July 2004, a fairly hardcore left / socialist site. Again: I don't give those guys a lot of credence, but if even they are saying that Morris was running an anti BNP campaign, I believe them.)

Right. He advised the UKIP on how to appear as if they were renouncing the BNP's neo-Nazi past. Nice guy.

500 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:12:01pm

Better yet search UKIP and BNP.

That will show the connections between the two parties.

501 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:12:31pm
502 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:12:31pm
Morris is something of a political mercenary, having served in a Democratic administration in the United States to appearing regularly on American television as a pundit. His punditry has shown him to be very right wing and earned him a reputation as a hard-hitter who even in this period when many Americans are asking that US forces return home, has insisted that they stay in Iraq. Does his right-wing stance mean anything to the Kenyan voter? Not to more than a few of Raila's closer allies, including the likes of Anyang' Nyong'o and James Orengo. However, as recently as three years ago, the new ODM advisor was very nicely sat in the UK advising another party with a colour and immediacy much closer to the Kenyan voter. That party was the UKIP- the UK Independence Party.

The UKIP is most often defined as the better-educated arm of the BNP, the fascistic British National Party. Profoundly racist and advocating an obdurate nationalism and the expulsion of foreigners, the UKIP advocates the closing of the UK's borders to immigrants and for the UK's withdrawal from the EU. Tame enough you might say, but linked here are some of the choicer statement's made by the party's officials while Dick Morris advised them in a zero-to-hero performance at the 2004 elections.

Raila's supporters in NAMLEF may want to ask what their chosen candidate is doing with a man who advised a party that won an election by having its most prominent candidate Robert Kilroy-Silk write in the Daily Express,

"They [Muslims] are backward and evil and if it is racist to say so... then racist I must be - and happy and proud, to be so". He has written on the pages of the same paper claiming "Muslims everywhere behave with equal savagery."
[Link: www.kenyaimagine.com...]

503 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:12:43pm

re: #493 Wishing

That is precisely what we do! And it is a blast! We study OT and NT, meet once a week online. Women from Alaska to Maine. Quite a group!

It's an online group? Would it be terribly rude of me to ask if I might sit in? My nic is blue if you'd like to contact me -- I will rescue you from spam jail ASAP.

504 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:12:58pm

re: #479 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Interesting.

505 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:13:07pm

re: #434 axegrinder

He is a superb political consultant. If the GOP has used his services we might have a conservative president right now. He did wonders for Clinton. The man is intuitive and reads the public well. I don't know him personally and don't have any feelings for or against him. Just an acknowledgment of his skills.

He has no principles or conscience.
The GOP does not need the likes of Dick Morris, Slimeball.

506 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:13:24pm

re: #500 Gus 802

Better yet search UKIP and BNP.

That will show the connections between the two parties.

Exactly. The UKIP and the BNP are two sides of the same coin, intended to trick gullible people into believing the BNP had "reformed."

507 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:13:39pm

re: #501 Iron Fist

A knife at that price is out of the question. It makes me wonder who does have the disposable income to actually afford it. And how I can get the same gig they have...


Become a knife dealer.

508 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:13:55pm

re: #498 rawmuse

Pot growing is big money. In my neighborhood, some growers bought some houses (way before the market softened) and converted them to grow houses. Turned out it was a MS13 run operation. They never would have caught them except they were crummy electricians and their grow lights burnt the houses down.

Seen that more than once.

Go to report of a house fire, smoke pouring out of an attic or basement, home owner says you can't go in there!

509 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:13:56pm

re: #496 razorbacker

You could always use it in your soup.

*Name that Cheech and Chong riff*

umm--i am sooo innocent- only smoked maybe 5 times in my 60 yrs on Gods great planet-hash once-OMG-- booze is my drug of choice now that i'm off nicotine for 9 weeks--pass the jack, jack

510 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:14:05pm

re: #495 mikeymom

I'll take your word for it.

511 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:14:25pm

re: #479 Radicchio ad Absurdum

OT: Anyone see this? NSA intercepts calls of Rep
Jane Harman

No - wow!

512 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:14:34pm

re: #507 doppelganglander

Become a knife dealer.

Gah! Premature posting! What I meant was, if you become a knife dealer you could probably get things for much less and keep a few things for yourself.

513 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:14:34pm

Linked from "Hot Air"
Obama showing off his moobs again

514 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:14:54pm

re: #503 doppelganglander

It's an online group? Would it be terribly rude of me to ask if I might sit in? My nic is blue if you'd like to contact me -- I will rescue you from spam jail ASAP.

I will email you. Don't want to bore the readership! lol

515 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:15:34pm

re: #514 Wishing

I will email you. Don't want to bore the readership! lol

Thanks!

516 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:15:43pm

re: #504 formercorpsman

Interesting.

That is about as far as I got. I don't think however, that this is the last we have heard of it.

517 hopperandadropper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:16:15pm

Come on, now, folks, have some patience. The Vatican only admitted Galileo was right something like 680 years after the fact. These folks need time to deal with the basic facts- they're still trying to get their heads around the atomic theory of matter ("How does Jayzus hold all them protons together"?).

518 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:16:30pm

re: #509 mikeymom

umm--i am sooo innocent- only smoked maybe 5 times in my 60 yrs on Gods great planet-hash once-OMG-- booze is my drug of choice now that i'm off nicotine for 9 weeks--pass the jack, jack

If that's going to be your story, stick with it;)

*I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability to remain silent.*

519 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:16:30pm
520 blackpajamas  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:16:35pm

With respect to: "But over three grand for a pocketknife?"

Maybe it was a really-really big pocket.

(I wonder if anyone ever lost a penknife on a pocket battle ship).

521 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:17:14pm

re: #506 Charles

Exactly. The UKIP and the BNP are two sides of the same coin, intended to trick gullible people into believing the BNP had "reformed."

A lot of odd connections with these folks and shuffling back and forth. Almost like stealth candidates. Both UKIP and BNP are trying to woo Labour Party voters if I'm reading this correctly.

522 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:17:49pm

re: #515 doppelganglander

Um, my email client isn't a windows product so I can't email you. But I am blue, so just send off a quick note and I will get right back to you.

523 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:18:52pm
524 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:18:54pm

re: #516 Radicchio ad Absurdum

I will read it about 2 or 3 more times.

Right off the bat, it makes me think the NSA was probably concerned about upper level espionage.

Who knows? I thought I had some semblance of a clue, but was unaware of other things as well.

525 axegrinder  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:19:06pm

re: #494 Charles

Certainly. Didn't mean to compare the two individuals. My point was that Morris as an adviser to a political candidate wouldn't be any worse then some of the advisers Obama had. IMO.

re: #497 solomonpanting

And do you hold either of those in high regard?

(And if Billy jumped off a cliff you would, too?)

Of course I don't hold them in high regard. I'm apparently not explaining myself very well.

If I was strapped into a hang glider I might. ;^)

526 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:19:07pm

re: #502 jaunte

Thank you. That's what I was looking for. I must admit that the UKIP always seemed a bit of a joke to me, with no real base of a support, so I never paid as much attention to them as I did to, say, the LibDems or (nowadays) the real BNP.

Maybe Morris figured he could make something better of them back in 2004, I don't know. Certainly by 2006 the UKIP were putting out feelers to the BNP. You'd never catch the Tories doing that shit (not since Halifax anyway)

527 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:19:54pm
528 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:19:54pm

re: #523 Iron Fist

I really think Fitzgerald is sitting on him right now.

Wraps if you will.

529 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:20:07pm

re: #524 formercorpsman

I will read it about 2 or 3 more times.

Right off the bat, it makes me think the NSA was probably concerned about upper level espionage.

Who knows? I thought I had some semblance of a clue, but was unaware of other things as well.

There is a lot there to think about to be sure

530 Lightspeed  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:20:21pm

re: #505 reine.de.tout

He has no principles or conscience.
The GOP does not need the likes of Dick Morris, Slimeball.

Agreed. He is brilliant and insightful. I don't mind seeing him as a commentator as he does tend to cut through the smoke and mirrors. Having said that, he is a gun for hire and will pimp any cause that makes him money. He'll cut you as soon as look at you if it serves his self-interest.

531 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:20:32pm

re: #501 Iron Fist

When I was cleaning out my MIL's place after her death I found a Green River knife, never sharpened since the day it was bought (if the wear was any indication).

Six inch blade with three inches being double-edged. Sold in the 1920s as a kitchen knife. If it had a handguard, it'd be a baby Bowie. Lousy kitchen knife. Lack of a handguard makes it a lousy fighting knife. So it's a looker, not a user.

532 AMER1CAN  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:20:47pm

re: #501 Iron Fist

I don't know anything about knives, but you always know when you are looking at something nice. WOW! Those are some excellent looking blades. The craftsmanship has to be incredible.

533 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:20:50pm

re: #518 razorbacker

If that's going to be your story, stick with it;)

*I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability to remain silent.*

really--i'm just glad i was never offered coke-the hash thing made me soo paranoid--that was the eye opener for me--except the ganja in jamaica 5 yrs ago was--well-sweet--my mom in heaven was delightful! may i have another dirty vodka martini, please/

534 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:21:05pm

re: #529 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Exactly.

535 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:21:07pm

re: #529 Radicchio ad Absurdum

There is a lot there to think about to be sure

Jane Harman always struck me as having a brain. This is a very strange story.

536 jorline  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:21:10pm

re: #499 Charles

Right. He advised the UKIP on how to appear as if they were renouncing the BNP's neo-Nazi past. Nice guy.

DICK Morris is a political slut. I turn the channel when his fat mug appears.

537 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:21:39pm

soba 5 kiri

Youtube Video

Ya' really gotta admire the Japanese
538 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:21:49pm

re: #517 hopperandadropper

Come on, now, folks, have some patience. The Vatican only admitted Galileo was right something like 680 years after the fact. These folks need time to deal with the basic facts- they're still trying to get their heads around the atomic theory of matter ("How does Jayzus hold all them protons together"?).

The Vatican conceded that Galileo was right 350 years after he died. (Galileo died: 1642, Vatican concession: 1992), and more than 370 years after the controversy first began.

680 years before 1992 would've been 1312, more than 250 years before Galileo was even born.

539 NelsFree  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:22:57pm

re: #507 doppelganglander

Become a knife dealer.


Or, just be a knife guy... be knife to others, they'll be knife to you.
/

540 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:23:06pm

re: #501 Iron Fist Hey Bro' (wipes slobber off chin) geez, I wish you hadn' shown that link.
I agree with you about pricing, but there is some genuine American craftsmanship there - and some of them are close to works of art.

541 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:23:39pm

Here's a big f'in clue, Infowars ♥'s Dick Morris

[Link: vids.myspace.com...]

542 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:24:46pm

re: #356 formercorpsman

Was this an attempt to have the banks get their act together, or was his aim to actually have government ownership in private industry?


I think the Dems were turning the screws (or at least threatening to) in order to get the banks to shape up. I don't think there was a secret plan to nationalize the banks. If they wanted to to it they would have don it by now.

543 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:24:47pm

hey real--HIIII--was you napping? dont you love the soggy pillow and the dried stuff on the chin?

544 gmsc  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:24:50pm

re: #537 Killgore Trout

Ya' really gotta admire the Japanese

Do you like Kabuki theater?

Youtube Video
545 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:00pm

re: #535 Dianna

Jane Harman always struck me as having a brain. This is a very strange story.

And then some. The source? The timing?

546 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:10pm

re: #544 gmsc

I hate Kabuki but I love MST3K.

547 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:25pm
548 hopperandadropper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:30pm

re: #538 gmsc

It's a fair cop- late at night and I'm tired being my only defense for obviously erroneous timelines. Still, 1992 seems a bit late to admit Galileo was not a heretic, wouldn't you say?

549 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:39pm

So I'm late to the nth thread on this topic just today, but here goes - Klinghoffer should be given a Darwin Award, like those that go to stupid criminals, for being an example of just what secular people find wrong with religion - it leads the simple-minded to think they have an explanation for everything, and need proof of nothing, based on their supposed insight, feelings, beliefs, etc.

And I'll just add yet again, that I believe (!) Charles and LGF are doing a public service in bringing these issues more visibility.

550 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:43pm

re: #541 Thanos

Yeah, we've been flooded with bad information from these idiots.

551 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:44pm

re: #522 Wishing

Um, my email client isn't a windows product so I can't email you. But I am blue, so just send off a quick note and I will get right back to you.

Doppelganglander?

552 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:26:50pm

re: #535 Dianna

Jane Harman always struck me as having a brain. This is a very strange story.

The question is who leaked it?
Why now?

It seems something more is going on that just the lobbying and the apparent quid pro quo.

553 axegrinder  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:27:26pm

g'nite lizards. Gotta run.

554 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:27:36pm

one of my embarrassing moments--fell asleep on a plane--woke up with spit on face and dry mouth-- i asked the lady next to me--was i snoring--she said not too loud dear-my hubby is louder--ohh jeez

555 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:28:38pm

OT: on a good note, the Flogging video is still reverberating across Pakistan, and the backlash is creating some positive change.

[Link: www.dawn.com...]

556 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:28:58pm

re: #547 Iron Fist

A.G. Russell is making a real nice living doing just that.

Started in his garage, now has a multimillion dollar per year setup off I-540 near Rogers.

If you do what you love, I understand that you never have to work.

557 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:29:16pm

re: #545 Radicchio ad Absurdum

And then some. The source? The timing?

I'll wait for a while on this. I was told - though I have no idea what to think - that the Times is repudiating the story? I don't get that.

558 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:30:10pm

Klinghoffer is a wretched, parasitic nematode.

How dare he try to score points off those dead kids! How dare he.

559 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:30:17pm

re: #543 mikeymom
Hey {mikeymom} - no I wasn't napping, I was in fact helping Mom to get ready for a big deal doc's appt tomorrow - getting together papers, logs of her meals and blood sugar and stuff.
The reason I was slobbering was over some of the beautiful knives that Iron Fist linked to in his #501!
How are you and mikeydad doing?

560 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:30:31pm

re: #554 mikeymom

one of my embarrassing moments--fell asleep on a plane--woke up with spit on face and dry mouth-- i asked the lady next to me--was i snoring--she said not too loud dear-my hubby is louder--ohh jeez

I'm a cruel person, had a snorer next to me on plane. They woke up just before landing and ask "are we there yet?" I said "Yep we'll be landing in Detroit in a couple of minutes!" (Flight was to LA) The momentary panic was priceless.

561 solomonpanting  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:30:31pm

Apparently, it's an old story:


In October 2006, Time magazine, quoting anonymous sources, asserted that an FBI and US Department of Justice investigation of Harman was underway. The magazine alleged that Harman had agreed to lobby the Department of Justice to reduce espionage charges against Steve J. Rosen and Keith Weissman, two officials at the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee. In exchange, Time said there was a quid pro quo in which AIPAC would lobby then-House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi to appoint Harman as chair of the House Intelligence Committee if the Democrats captured the House after the 2006 elections.
562 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:31:01pm

re: #558 MandyManners

Klinghoffer is a wretched, parasitic nematode.

How dare he try to score points off those dead kids! How dare he.

He dare because he is a freaking asshole.

563 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:31:40pm

re: #522 Wishing

Um, my email client isn't a windows product so I can't email you. But I am blue, so just send off a quick note and I will get right back to you.

Done!

564 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:32:42pm

re: #547 Iron Fist

It does sound like a tough business. You're wise to be realistic about your chances. I guess it'll have to be an expensive hobby for now.

565 Aviator  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:32:56pm

re: #561 solomonpanting

Apparently, it's an old story:

The wire tap part is the new part of the story.

566 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:32:56pm

re: #557 Dianna

I'll wait for a while on this. I was told - though I have no idea what to think - that the Times is repudiating the story? I don't get that.

Too be sure. Not jumping to any conclusions, only questions. Regarding repudiating, I just refreshed their website and it is still one of the top stories. . . .?

567 jorline  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:33:33pm

re: #544 gmsc

Do you like Kabuki theater?

[Video]

Hey gmsc. My father was stationed outside of Tokyo in the mid 60's.

I hated Kabuki, Tea Ceremonies and dried squid, but loved the old Sanyo Hotel in Tokyo and Pachinko Parlors...lol

568 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:33:39pm
569 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:33:43pm

re: #540 realwest

Hey Bro' (wipes slobber off chin) geez, I wish you hadn' shown that link.
I agree with you about pricing, but there is some genuine American craftsmanship there - and some of them are close to works of art.

What is a knife, just a tool to cut stuff with.

I am definitely getting myself a new set of Henckels for Passover next year.

570 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:33:48pm

re: #562 Alouette

He dare because he is a freaking asshole.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

571 Digital Display  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:33:57pm

re: #565 Aviator

The wire tap part is the new part of the story.

Hi Aviator!

572 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:34:08pm

re: #562 Alouette

He dare because he is a freaking asshole.

That's no excuse.

573 jcm  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:34:48pm

re: #561 solomonpanting

Apparently, it's an old story:

That makes more sense, it's time concurrent with the events.

Why is NYT bringing it up again?

Shortly before the article was published more than a year later, in December 2005, Mr. Taubman met with a group of Congressional leaders familiar with the eavesdropping program, including Ms. Harman. They all argued that The Times should not publish.

NYT has an axe to grind it seems.....

574 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:34:54pm

re: #542 Killgore Trout

Fair enough.

575 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:35:24pm

re: #551 Wishing

Doppelganglander?

You rang?

576 Bobblehead  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:35:40pm

re: #560 jcm

I'm a cruel person, had a snorer next to me on plane. They woke up just before landing and ask "are we there yet?" I said "Yep we'll be landing in Detroit in a couple of minutes!" (Flight was to LA) The momentary panic was priceless.

You bad.

577 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:35:44pm

re: #559 realwest

well real, i too am preparing for a 'fun' day tomorrow--mammo in a.m., then dental appt to repair crumbling front bottom teeth- i dont take novacain on that side very well--will come home slurring-lol--hope mom does well--i'm dealing with the type 2 also--but i dont take it to seriously--test every week or so--mikeydad is already driving me crazy--i may go to IBM and beg them to take him back--sigh-

578 Aviator  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:36:17pm

re: #571 HoosierHoops

Hi Aviator!

Evening.

579 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:36:33pm

I simply cannot fathom the depth of depravity that lies behind this bastard's motivation.

580 formercorpsman  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:37:08pm

Have a good night folks.

581 Digital Display  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:37:25pm

re: #567 jorline

Hey gmsc. My father was stationed outside of Tokyo in the mid 60's.

I hated Kabuki, Tea Ceremonies and dried squid, but loved the old Sanyo Hotel in Tokyo and Pachinko Parlors...lol

Are you watching the battle of Texas..NBA playoffs?

582 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:37:33pm

re: #540 realwest

Hey Bro' (wipes slobber off chin) geez, I wish you hadn' shown that link.
I agree with you about pricing, but there is some genuine American craftsmanship there - and some of them are close to works of art.

I'm too practical (or cheap, whichever you prefer) to buy a high-dollar knife. Or gun, for that matter. I had to dissuade my daughter from buying me a damascus steel hunting knife.

Told her thanks, but just buy ammo. Never have too much of that.

583 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:37:35pm

re: #580 formercorpsman

Have a good night folks.

Likewise

584 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:38:23pm

re: #466 jcm

WA State leg banned that (other state also).

Next they will say that since there is no way to be sure that the pedicurists themselves could not transmit disease, their profession should be banned too.

The potentials for avoiding risk are boundless, and the opportunities for bureaucrats are too.

585 Digital Display  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:38:38pm

re: #578 Aviator

Evening.

Hope tonight finds you well.. I'm watching the NBA playoffs...

586 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:38:41pm

re: #410 Lightspeed

If science can show that the creation stories put forth in Genesis are not literally true and are only allegorical, then why should anyone believe the rest of the Bible is true?

I've mentioned before that Moses is accredited with writing the first five books of the Bible via divine inspiration. Now, if he had tried to explain amino acids and tide pools to a Bronze-age group of nomads for whom mud + straw = bricks was high-tech, then he would have been lynched.

Resurrection? Hrmph, seen Copperfield do it all and then some.

Either you're using hyperbole, or you're deliberately trying to provoke someone. (or, you're a twit--but we've hunted them to extinction here on this site--so I tend to discount that one) We keep the dialogue on a even keel and that, my friend the the cornerstone of the Christian faith--for none can get to the Father save through me. Either Jesus was the real deal or he was a lunatic and all his disciples were complete morons for 11 of the 12 to die martyr's deaths.

In the mind of a Fundamentalist Christian, if you knock down the first domino of Genisis, the rest of the Bible will fall as well.

For some people who are insecure in their faith, yes. For others, it's not a stumbling block. You need to ask yourself if you want to help those people advance or cause them to retreat?

God is infalliable and God wrote the Bible. End of story.

As a matter of my faith--yes, I believe that.

The greatest gift of mankind, God-given or otherwise, is the power to think, to reason.

After letting his son be flayed and nailed to a tree for our sins--yes.

Those who seek to supress and deny reason seek to supress the truth.

That one cuts both ways.

And remember, God is the Way, the Light, and the Truth. Deny reason and deny God.

Come, let us reason together says Isiah. Agreed.

I doubt seriously that God celebrates morons.

I dunno about celebrates--he sure tolerates 'em.

587 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:39:08pm

re: #556 razorbacker
Hey razorbacker - I have two knives made by ole A.G.! I met him at a knife show in NYC - gees, must be 20 years or so ago now and his knives weren't fancy enough I guess cause no one was at his "booth" but him. So we had a nice, long chat about the art of knifemaking. Told him what I'd paid for a Randall FS/1 over in Vietnam and he complimented me on my skill at realizing such a great deal (didn't have the heart to tell him I sold it for about the same price when I was going back to the world). He was a real kind, albeit rough hewn fellow.

588 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:39:18pm

re: #538 gmsc

The Vatican conceded that Galileo was right 350 years after he died. (Galileo died: 1642, Vatican concession: 1992), and more than 370 years after the controversy first began.

680 years before 1992 would've been 1312, more than 250 years before Galileo was even born.

Here's another date: April 16, 1757, when Pope Benedict XIV endorsed Isaac Newton's theories of gravity. So the Church never accepted Galileo or Copernicus as right, but it did support the theory which proved them wrong again (incomplete anyway).

I don't think the Church has ever said that Galileo was right, so much as admitting that the Church was wrong to take him to the Inquisition. Slight nuance, I know...

589 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:39:21pm

re: #368 Dianna

Not a clue.

I never could take him seriously. Whenever I saw him, I always thought of him as, "he who sucks upon the toes of prostitutes," which sounds like an elaborate insult, but in his case, is merely descriptive.

What is it with the taste of toejam anyway?

590 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:39:31pm

re: #432 jcm

Fisherman with one pole?

591 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:40:06pm

re: #567 jorline
Hey jorline my friend, how are you doing? Business still about the same?

592 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:40:11pm

re: #589 Salamantis

The fact that you ask concerns me deeply./////

593 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:40:41pm

re: #587 realwest

He's come up in the world, since those days.

You might even say that he's carved himself out a little niche market.

594 Gus  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:40:49pm

By now I think it's fair to say that what David Klinghoffer has written is going beyond creationism and borders on slander, fear and hate mongering. The article is based on wildly based assumption from what he appears to see as cause and effect.

None of this even approaches anything remotely known as science. Not even in the field of social sciences and anthropology. It reads more like an anger riddled political speech or sermon meant to instill fear amongst an audience.

Even though this diatribe by David Klinghoffer does not completely focus on creationism it does shed a great deal of light on the creationist agenda and its underlying motivation which is to instill fear and loathing amongst their kind. It is instead like a hateful political ideology meant to control people based on archaic and primitive ideas.

595 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:41:06pm

re: #579 MandyManners

I simply cannot fathom the depth of depravity that lies behind this bastard's motivation.

It's kinda up there with burning witches.

596 mikeymom  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:42:04pm

night dear lizards--bless and keep you all.

597 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:42:39pm

re: #560 jcm
ROFL! Now that was downright mean of you jcm. Funny as hell, but mean! LOL!

598 Aviator  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:42:55pm

re: #585 HoosierHoops

Hope tonight finds you well.. I'm watching the NBA playoffs...

Doing well. Working on a nice single malt scotch.

599 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:43:37pm

re: #556 razorbacker

A.G. Russell is making a real nice living doing just that.

Started in his garage, now has a multimillion dollar per year setup off I-540 near Rogers.

If you do what you love, I understand that you never have to work.

At the other end of the spectrum, Buck Knives used to be made out here in El Cajon. Mr. Buck was actually part of a jury pool I had years ago and he told us then that he was moving the business to Idaho as it was cheaper. he has since passed and Buck's knives come from----drum roll---
China.
Sigh.

600 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:43:59pm

re: #558 MandyManners

Klinghoffer is a wretched, parasitic nematode.

How dare he try to score points off those dead kids! How dare he.

He's the intermediate form between a poo-flinging chimp, and Barney Frank.

601 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:44:49pm

re: #599 calcajun

At the other end of the spectrum, Buck Knives used to be made out here in El Cajon. Mr. Buck was actually part of a jury pool I had years ago and he told us then that he was moving the business to Idaho as it was cheaper. he has since passed and Buck's knives come from----drum roll---
China.
Sigh.

Those are the Pearl Buck knives?
/

602 Wishing  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:45:08pm

re: #563 doppelganglander

Done!

Reply sent!

603 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:45:12pm

re: #569 Alouette Well if a knife is just a tool to cut stuff with, why are y'all spending so much on a set of Henckels ?

604 solomonpanting  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:45:45pm

re: #600 itellu3times

He's the intermediate form between a poo-flinging chimp, and Barney Frank.

Impossible. They're redundant.

605 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:45:45pm

re: #600 itellu3times

As God as my witness, I do not know which of the two I like less.

606 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:46:08pm

re: #599 calcajun

At the other end of the spectrum, Buck Knives used to be made out here in El Cajon. Mr. Buck was actually part of a jury pool I had years ago and he told us then that he was moving the business to Idaho as it was cheaper. he has since passed and Buck's knives come from----drum roll---
China.
Sigh.

I'm still using my first lightweight Buck folder as my hunting knife. Well, when I remember which pocket of my coveralls I put it when season ended, that is.

It predates the China knives.

607 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:46:14pm

re: #601 itellu3times

heh.

608 Dianna  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:46:59pm

re: #566 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Too be sure. Not jumping to any conclusions, only questions. Regarding repudiating, I just refreshed their website and it is still one of the top stories. . . .?

No clue, here.

609 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:47:34pm

re: #577 mikeymom
Well I sure wish you a lot of luck tomorrow - hardly anyone takes novocaine well in front teeth, upper or lower, but it'll be worth it, I'm sure.
And hey, let me know how things go with IBM!
:)

610 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:47:59pm

re: #606 razorbacker

I'm still using my first lightweight Buck folder as my hunting knife. Well, when I remember which pocket of my coveralls I put it when season ended, that is.

It predates the China knives.

I have an old Buck. Last summer, one the Scouts bought a new one at the "trading post" at our summer camp--same size as mine and 25% lighter. He felt he'd been taken and wanted to buy my knife.

611 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:48:09pm

re: #605 calcajun

As God as my witness, I do not know which of the two I like less.

You might possibly be able to reason with Barney Frank. Not so the chimp or the Davidhoffer.

612 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:48:13pm

re: #608 Dianna

No clue, here.

Oh, its just the Times being the Times and all.

613 calcajun  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:48:28pm

Dinner and walk time.

BBL

614 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:49:06pm

re: #571 HoosierHoops
Hey Hoops! How are ya tonight? You all with us or are you "multi-tasking" now?!

615 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:49:57pm

re: #610 calcajun

I have an old Buck. Last summer, one the Scouts bought a new one at the "trading post" at our summer camp--same size as mine and 25% lighter. He felt he'd been taken and wanted to buy my knife.

The 'lightweight' part of mine is the handle. One of those 'spaceage' polymers (Zytel?) So far, indestructable. But not mislayable.

616 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:51:21pm
617 realwest  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:53:25pm

re: #593 razorbacker
Cute! Well I do hope he's doing really well, as I said, he was a nice man and gave this neophyte quite a discourse on knife making - at least the way he made them back then!
And the two I got from him (fixed, double edged, total lengtt of 7" with horizontal belt sheaths) are still prized possessions of mine.

618 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:58:14pm

re: #617 realwest

Cute! Well I do hope he's doing really well, as I said, he was a nice man and gave this neophyte quite a discourse on knife making - at least the way he made them back then!
And the two I got from him (fixed, double edged, total lengtt of 7" with horizontal belt sheaths) are still prized possessions of mine.

He's doing Really well.

619 jorline  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:58:41pm

re: #581 HoosierHoops

Are you watching the battle of Texas..NBA playoffs?

Sorry for the delay Hoopster. I love college hoops, but I'm not much of an NBA fan....who's winning?

620 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:00:38pm

re: #619 jorline

Sorry for the delay Hoopster. I love college hoops, but I'm not much of an NBA fan....who's winning?

Woot! Rockets 108, Portland 81

621 razorbacker  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:01:47pm

Five AM is coming earlier every day, it seems like.

Nytol.

622 jorline  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:06:22pm

re: #591 realwest

Hey jorline my friend, how are you doing? Business still about the same?

How are you RW? Sales are still up, but cash flow is very very tight. I feel like chucking it in at times and going back to the corporate world....even though I hated that. The continued health issues make it hard as well.

How are you my friend? I saw your post about Dublin Dude...I'm very sorry to hear of his passing.

623 jorline  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:07:28pm

re: #620 Zimriel

Woot! Rockets 108, Portland 81

Damn Chinese!
//

624 irongrampa  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:10:48pm

This is the first, and likely the last time I will post on this subject.
I never read any of the threads pertinent to creationism,not being an adherent to the theory. Evolution, yes.To me, a logical progression at work.
After reading Klinghoffer's screed I finally understood why you are so vehement on the subject, Charles.
I feel sorry for the man. And the people who subscribe to these beliefs.
So I'll wish them a happy life and no ascendancy in influence.

625 Aye Pod  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:16:19pm

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The UK independence party was formed as an anti-EU party. There have been attempts to infiltrate it by BNP members and some members have very dodgy associations.

626 Digital Display  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:32pm

re: #614 realwest

Hey Hoops! How are ya tonight? You all with us or are you "multi-tasking" now?!

Good evening friend.. I get my new Blackberry in the Morning..It's been 2 weeks since my old one died..My hands are shaking..I can't do this..Multitasking with out the crackberry..LOL

627 hopperandadropper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:17:37pm

re: #566 Radicchio ad Absurdum

OT, but I love the handle. Are you a foodie or do you just like a good pun?

628 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:42:29pm

I haven't read all the comments, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something.

I find just the two quoted paragraphs to be extremely offensive...completely beyond the pale of human decency.

The DI should have to issue a serious apology to the entire community of Littleton, CO and Klinghoffer should be shown the door at the organization. I know it won't happen, but damn. What a disgusting human being.

629 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:27:56pm

Woo Hoo! Video games are off the hook!

/ Sorry Darwin, you're gonna have to take the fall.

630 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:12:01pm

re: #629 NukeAtomrod

Ha! Did you see my Jack Thompson & Eliot Spitzer posts in this thread?

631 danrudy  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:13:53pm

re: #589 Salamantis

I answered you in the other thread continuing our discussion

632 stuiec  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:42:03pm

The worst part of David Klinghoffer's argument (if one can call it that) is that he legitimizes the bastardization of Darwin's synthesis by accepting the twisted views of the fringe groups as somehow legitimately tied to Darwin's work. Darwin described a natural phenomenon. Others distorted his work to create support for their own pet philosophies, shamelessly attaching his name to their inventions.

Rather than point out how Darwin's work has been distorted and maligned by the fringe groups, Klinghoffer blames the existence of Darwin's work for creating the fringe groups' belief systems. It's a parallel to someone recognizing that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is an effort to destroy the Jews -- and then blaming the Jews for provoking the creation of the Protocols, rather than pointing out that the connection of Jews to the forged Protocols is a false invention of anti-Semites.

633 stuiec  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 12:01:59am

re: #506 Charles

Exactly. The UKIP and the BNP are two sides of the same coin, intended to trick gullible people into believing the BNP had "reformed."

That is not true.

The UK Independence Party started for one reason: taking Britain out of the EU. Their party constitution specifically declares them against racism.

1 NAME

The official name of the Party shall be the UK Independence Party, or UKIP, or Independence, legally known as the United Kingdom Independence Party, hereinafter referred to as "the Party".

2 AIMS

2.1 The principal aim of the Party is that the United Kingdom ("UK") shall again be governed by laws made to suit its own needs by its own Parliament, which must be directly and solely accountable to the electorate of the UK. The second aim is to preserve the integrity of the UK. To this intent the Party's objects are to withdraw the UK from the European Union and to resist membership of any other international organisation, or grouping, the membership of which is incompatible with the above aims and to oppose any form of government within the UK, which may undermine its integrity.

2.2 On withdrawal from the EU, the Party will seek free trade agreements with the EU and other countries (and/or trade blocs.)

2.3 The Party will be guided in its activities by the principle of non-discrimination, including non-racism and non-sectarianism, and will be guided by the principle that all people are equal before the law.

2.4 The Party will develop a full range of domestic and foreign policies.

2.5 The Party will develop and promote legislation to protect the British people from any future Parliament giving away its powers of governance.

2.6 The Party will seek to return authority and responsible autonomy to all levels of local government; it rejects the imposition of regional government and other EU-driven regional structures.


It was the BNP that approached UKIP to try to force an alliance; the UKIP member who purported to speak for the BNP in that effort forced his way into a UKIP party executive meeting and had to be expelled by uniformed police officers.

Support for UKIP in Britain has fallen to the point where the party will likely lose all of its members of Parliament. Support for the British National Party, by contrast, is on the rise. Apparently UKIP was too moderate for the loony fringe of Britain's right wing: they don't want the non-racist, principled opponents to loss of British sovereignty, not when they can have the goose-stepping, Paki-bashing skinhead alternative.

634 Lightspeed  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 12:27:36am

re: #586 calcajun

I respect faith. Science can only go so far. It can only explain the things of this world.

The Bible purports to explain those things beyond this world. Fair enough. But, give God some credit. He set up the laws of nature, yes? Can we not obeserve those laws and define them through the power of reason? Why insist that a book intended for scientific illiterates be taken as literal truth?

A man of true faith has nothing to fear from science, as it can only reinforce his belief. After all, what is true is true. But not all truth is in the Bible. God would not have it so. Otherwise, his teachings ended 2000 years ago.

635 Hhar  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 7:16:02am

It is fair to say that darwinian biology is an incitement to mischief. On the other hand, so is democracy. And Youtube. Not to mention the entire internet.... teaching women to read.....

636 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 7:56:02am

re: #633 stuiec

That is not true.

The UK Independence Party started for one reason: taking Britain out of the EU. Their party constitution specifically declares them against racism.

It's pretty easy to find stuff on the web about the collusion between the UKIP and the BNP. I stand by my statement that they're two sides of the same coin, and I'm completely unconvinced by their party constitution.

637 robdouth  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 8:48:50am

re: #635 Hhar

It is fair to say that darwinian biology is an incitement to mischief. On the other hand, so is democracy. And Youtube. Not to mention the entire internet.... teaching women to read.....

Living dangerously on that last one, that's a good way to get a helping of Mandy's Manners...

638 Hhar  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 9:12:28am

re: #637 robdouth

Well, I'm used to it, and frankly consider it a bit funny.

I figure if I stick around my karma will be somewhat lower than the Mohorovcic discontinuity, so I'm determined to enjoy it.

639 stuiec  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 4:35:39pm

re: #636 Charles

It's pretty easy to find stuff on the web about the collusion between the UKIP and the BNP. I stand by my statement that they're two sides of the same coin, and I'm completely unconvinced by their party constitution.

That's interesting, because the BNP regarded UKIP (when the latter was on the rise) as a "false flag" party designed by the political Establishment to undercut the BNP -- hence their desperation at the time to co-opt UKIP.

It's pretty easy to find stuff on the web linking practically any two organizations together. Whether that stuff is the stuff of fact (e.g., a high UKIP official making a contribution of about $200 to a BNP group, very embarrassing to UKIP) or the stuff of fantasy intended to smear UKIP is an altogether different question.

The England First Party, which seems to be making inroads against the BNP. is an overtly racist party and a darling of the folks at Stormfront.

(The English Democrats are an overtly non-racist party who wish to devolve England from the UK in the same way as Scotland is devolved: an English parliament for England and a British parliament for the United Kingdom as two separate bodies.)

As ever, I think it's valuable to recognize who the real enemies are so as not to waste time on phantom enemies.

640 Cato  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 6:27:28pm

Charles,

Darwinism HAS been either misunderstood or misused as a means to achieve undesireable political views. I hope you do not deny this. In its essence it is a biological theory, and we should always be careful of trying to derive an "ought" from and "is". Nevertheless, people do it and some of those people were influential and have been tremendously destructive.

641 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 8:16:55pm

re: #640 Cato

Charles,

Darwinism HAS been either misunderstood or misused as a means to achieve undesireable political views. I hope you do not deny this.

I deny it, utterly and completely. And those who insist on this false and scurrilous linkage are fanatics who should be renounced by all decent people.

642 Mr Secul  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 11:12:54pm

re: #640 Cato

Charles,

Darwinism HAS been either misunderstood or misused as a means to achieve undesireable political views.

Can you give examples of such people and show how they used Darwinism? Do you have quotes of the things they said?

This isn't Hitler again is it? (The he got his antisemitism from science and not religion ploy.) Or the anti-intellectual Pol Pot was an evolutionary biologist ploy? Or the Lamarkian soviets were Darwinists ploy?

Have you got something new or are we just getting the tired old nonsense from Explelled: no intelligence allowed (how apt).

643 Cato  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 7:30:34am

re: #642 Mr Secul

The 20th century is full of examples of the two great evils -- communism and fascism -- misusing their own versions of "science" to support hideous social experiments centered on state coercion. There is NO DOUBT that the eugenics movement was based on an understanding of Darwin. Why was there no doubt? Because Francis Galton, Darwin's kin was its founder
and explicitly identified Darwinism as its basis.

Rather than go to Hitler, why don't we discuss some of the more popular US figures who supported eugenics for explicitly Darwinian reasons. When Oliver Wendall Holmes wrote in support of the sterilization of the mentally infirm in the US he wrote, "Three generations of idiots are enough." His decision was based on culling "bad genes".

Jonah Goldberg does an excellent job of discussing how the intelligentsia at Yale wanted to cull the bottom 5 percent of the US population by offering a welfare system in exchange for sterilization. This they thought would increase the average IQ of the nation making us "more fit". Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist who wanted to provide contraception so that there would b e fewer "stupid people" and avoid having to provide compulsory abortions.

Much of this history has been rewritten in light of subsequent events.

None of it has anything to do with t he truth or falsity of evolutionary theory.

644 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:51:55am

re: #643 Cato

And again, the guy who claims he's "not a creationist" posts ridiculous creationist talking points.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

645 Cato  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:20am

re: #644 Charles

Was Galton not the father of eugenics? Was he not explicitly referencing Darwin? Am I incorrect on Sanger? What about the Yale movement?

Since when is history, actual history, a "talking point"? That eugenics had a Darwinian patina is no argument against evolution per se. But don't deny the history. The root of the problem with eugenics is FORCE as a means of social change, not evolution.

646 Cato  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:41:15am

re: #644 Charles


And BTW, I am not a creationist. Not in the slightest.

647 Hhar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:49:14am

I guess I am a fanatic then too, Charles.

I think you are very right to highlight how important anticreationism is: religious doctrine has no place in the classroom, and scientific creationism is a pack of lies. Your linkage of creationism and jihadism is appropriate and I admire that. Darwinian evolution is a powerful, beautiful theory, and in its broad outlines, and in many of its details, is almost certainly true, and profoundly true. It isn't just scientifically and intellectually inspiring, it is positively mythopoeic.

Well, from a strictly cultural point of view, that mythopoeic capacity can be problematic. This I think is an historical fact. It does not detract from the validity, beauty or power of evolutionary biology. And yes, Klinghoffer is off the deep end, IMNSHO.

648 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:04:25pm

re: #646 Cato

And BTW, I am not a creationist. Not in the slightest.

Oh, I know that's what you say. I'm supposed to believe it's nothing but coincidence that you always pop up in threads about creationism, and spout creationist talking points -- got it.

649 Mr Secul  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:05:22pm

re: #643 Cato

The 20th century is full of examples of the two great evils -- communism and fascism -- misusing their own versions of "science" to support hideous social experiments centered on state coercion.

Are you saying that they used scientific sounding arguments to justify what they did?

Or are you saying that the states would have been benign if science hadn't existed?

What do you suggest we do about this?

Should we dismantle science and bury it? Would that work?

Should scientific ideas be regulated in some way? By who?

Should this be done by the state or by the church?

Do you think we should warn of the evils of science in the science classes?

Is technology as potentially dangerous as science? Should engineering, manufacturing, and pharmacology also carry health warnings in the classroom?

Do you think that the US is heading towards despotism because of science? Do we need to take action soon?

Do you think that teaching Intelligent Design is enough to save us?

Where are you going with this?

650 Mr Secul  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:18:09pm

re: #645 Cato

Was Galton not the father of eugenics?

Eugenics is just animal husbandry applied to humans. That idea goes back at least as far as Plato.

Was he not explicitly referencing Darwin? Am I incorrect on Sanger? What about the Yale movement?

Since when is history, actual history, a "talking point"? That eugenics had a Darwinian patina is no argument against evolution per se.

Then what is the point of mentioning it on a Creationism thread?

But don't deny the history. The root of the problem with eugenics is FORCE as a means of social change, not evolution.

So you are against FORCE as a means of social change not evolution?

651 Hhar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:18:53pm

. re: #649 Mr Secul

Can I answer some of that? Because I don't disagree with anything cato just wrote,though I have not followed everything he has written, so I may be missing some subtext.

Are you saying that they used scientific sounding arguments to justify what they did?

Yes. sometimes they WERE scientific arguments (albeit bad ones), made by scientists (and note: they were were corrected by scientists.)

Or are you saying that the states would have been benign if science hadn't existed?

No. I wouldn't say that.

What do you suggest we do about this?

Limit the power of the state to impinge on personal freedom.

Should we dismantle science and bury it? Would that work?

No.

Should scientific ideas be regulated in some way? By who?

No. The only thing that needs to be regulated is the etics of performing research, and we do that already, and sometimes a bit much, I'd say.

Should this be done by the state or by the church?

See above,.

Do you think we should warn of the evils of science in the science classes?

What evils of science? Do you mean abuses or possible social dangers? Those aren't evils of science, any more than an atom bomb is an evil of physics. Everything has consequences.

Is technology as potentially dangerous as science? Should engineering, manufacturing, and pharmacology also carry health warnings in the classroom?

See above. Where a technology is potentially problematic in real life, (ie driving cars) we teach kids about it. I don't see a problem that needs teaching about in evolutionary biology. Do you?

Do you think that the US is heading towards despotism because of science? Do we need to take action soon?

No.

Do you think that teaching Intelligent Design is enough to save us?

ID is crackpot science at the very best.

Where are you going with this?

Right now I'm bottom feeding on a thread. I see it as simply an issue of historical fact, and unpleasant historical fact, but it is a subject I have a longstanding interest in.

652 Hhar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:37:09pm

re: #650 Mr Secul

Eugenics is just animal husbandry applied to humans. That idea goes back at least as far as Plato.

No, this is not entirely true. It is true that even before Plato, the Spartans were tossing their weaklings and selecting their mates on a kinda joy health strength thingy. It is also true that animal breeders mate animals selectively with an outcome in mind. However, Eugenicists went further. The argument (to paraphrase) was that low down dumb people breed fast, and smart refined people had very few kids. Enter Malthusian arguments of population regulation (via Darwin) and the fear was that the white race was going to lose its intellectual and spiritual edge. The connection of Galton to Darwin is pretty darn direct

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

and really can't be trivialised or dismissed. This is the history of ideas, and it is fact. People need to deal with it.

653 Mr Secul  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:47:09pm

re: #647 Hhar

It isn't just scientifically and intellectually inspiring, it is positively mythopoeic.

What do you mean? Do you mean Misomythic? (I don't even know what the word would be, that's the closest I could come to it)

I think that Cato would agree with that sentiment.

Cato, have you seen this? I think you would like Tolkien.

654 Mr Secul  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:58:31pm

re: #652 Hhar

The connection of Galton to Darwin is pretty darn direct

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

and really can't be trivialised or dismissed. This is the history of ideas, and it is fact. People need to deal with it.

OK but where do we go from here?

Its probably not got a lot to do with teaching the strengths and weaknesses of evolutionary theory in science classes but it is an interesting thing in its own right.

I just suspect that I don't have anything perceptive to say about it. :-)

Cato, I didn't get the thrust of your posts because I didn't see how they related to the issue of ID in the classroom. But maybe I just missed the point. Did you just want to talk about Darwinism as a philosophy?

655 Hhar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:08:40pm

No I mean mythopoeic, as in: when it contacts minds it gives rise to myths (kind of like hematopoeitic means giving rise to blood), and by myths I do not mean to refer to falshoods, but to sweeping explanatory stories. Kind of in the way your link refers to it. Perhaps my usage is idiosyncratic, and for that I apologise.

We are all interested in where we come from. I do not say this as a criticism, but as a fact: for some people, evolution helps answer that question in an important way. It gives us (for instance) an origins myth. It is a theory with a considerable spiritual impact and explanatory breadth.

I will go further. It is inappropriate to say that evolution is therefore a religion. It is appropriate to note that for some people, it does seem to act like a religious doctrine, and again, this I regard as an obvious, if unfortunate, fact that has nothing to do with whether or not evolution should be taught in science class (as it definitely should).

656 Hhar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:15:49pm

Where we go from here is figuring out where we are in the culture wars, and the role that evolutionary biology has in a cultural struggle.

It is a complicated question, but I think we will agree that truth will prevail, and nobody should ever have anything to fear from the truth.

657 Mr Secul  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:56:35pm

re: #655 Hhar

No I mean mythopoeic, as in: when it contacts minds it gives rise to myths (kind of like hematopoeitic means giving rise to blood), and by myths I do not mean to refer to falshoods, but to sweeping explanatory stories. Kind of in the way your link refers to it. Perhaps my usage is idiosyncratic, and for that I apologise.

I like that usage, that sense of the word. It sounds right.

I was thinking of Tolkien the Catholic and I was thinking of scientists as Nolder, his race(?) of elves who were too clever and too interested in how thinks work. He never approved of that.

And I was thinking of darwinism as being myth deadening so I was thinking of Misomythus [myth-hater] as opposed to Philomythus [myth-friend].

We are all interested in where we come from. I do not say this as a criticism, but as a fact: for some people, evolution helps answer that question in an important way. It gives us (for instance) an origins myth. It is a theory with a considerable spiritual impact and explanatory breadth.

I will go further. It is inappropriate to say that evolution is therefore a religion. It is appropriate to note that for some people, it does seem to act like a religious doctrine, and again, this I regard as an obvious, if unfortunate, fact that has nothing to do with whether or not evolution should be taught in science class (as it definitely should).

I don't think that its evolution itself that is the doctrine. Its philosophical naturalism that is the root. Doctrinal evolution is merely a subset of the general idea that there is nothing but the natural. IMO

I hope people don't think that my account has been hijacked by Phillip Johnson :-) I know the distinction between methodological and philosophical naturalism and I don't think that evolutionary theory or science is a religion.

658 Hhar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 2:08:27pm

I'm glad you like the usage. I was trying tothink of a good term forthe effect evolutionary biology can have about 20 years ago and that one popped into my head. I've been using it ever since.

Sometimes you are correct: it is philosophical naturalism that is the doctrine. But other people who are NOT philosophical materialists, and especially some new-agey whackoes also embrace evolution with astonishing, and bizarrely irrational ardor. Some pantheists and Buddhists get all worked up and ferocious about it too.

"There's nowt so queer as folks."

659 Cato  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:32:58pm

re: #658 Hhar

re: #657 Mr Secul

Hhar,

While my family and I were getting a tour of the Palm Springs Air Museum by Ronald Reagan's AF One pilot, you were answering Mr Secul's questions exactly as I would have. Charles is too caught up in the mob's Alcibiades arguments against Socrates to see that the teacher is not always responsible for the uses one's students give his arguments. Bravo.

660 Hhar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:14:53pm

re: #659 Cato

I'm glad we think alike on these issues. I don't know that I agree with you on what or how Charles is thinking. I do know that people who do a lot of anticreationism get seriously harassed, and it wears, and they get very suspicious, and (I think) reasonably so. I also know that I'm lousy at reading motive, and it is Charles' house, so I try not to put my feet on the furniture, and assume he knows his own mind best.


I tend to take in very good humor when people accuse me of being a creationist because (for instance) I think Behe is by not a creationist (even when I say straight up that he's a crank and that ID is crackpot) and that Dawkins is an antireligious biogot (I really don't know how anyone could read Dawkins and NOT come to that conclusion, but that may be just me) and that that Darwinian biology likely did have some role to play in the genesis of Nazi race ideology, or that evolutionary biology can be a religion to some people, or any number of things. To me, these are obvious facts, and anticreationism has been a hobby of mine since highschool. But its a loaded topic: creationists and IDTers use these points to argue against the value of Darwinian biology.

But one of the reasons they use them is because they have some degree of validity, in my opinion. Doesn't mean their consequent arguments amount to anything, but demonstrating the flaws in the arguments takes time, effort and goodwill on the part of both discussants, and frankly the jousting field of the internet is a poor place for it.

Not that it isn't sometimes a good deal of fun, mind you, but still...

661 Cato  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:40pm

re: #660 Hhar

I think I pretty much agree with your sentiments, although I have no idea who Behe is. I am not an anti-creationist or ID debunker because it seems so obvious that these theories do not rise to the level of science that only a fool could give them credence as a scientific description. However, I am not an anti-religious bigot. People much brighter than I believed in G-d, and I am not one to trash someone else's religion. I remember thinking that Dawkins' attitude needed adjustment on this and there is much to dislike in his writing. As to my religion, I am culturally Jewish, but of no real faith, but attracted to Spinoza's pantheism for its perspective.

My own views on evolution are heavily influenced by Stove, which is to say that we agree with the vast majority of the theory, but as a method for describing how man created his social institutions and how he lives his life it falls very short in explanatory power, and in some cases is a slander on man. Of course, EVERY explanatory theory of man's actions falls short, including game theory, statistical sociological theory, objectivism, communism, fascism, economics and card reading. The failure of even the smartest stock market minds amply attests to the failure of theory to
explain free actors.

662 Salamantis  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:35:59pm

Richard Dawkins' own position on using biological evolution theory as a social template:

[Link: www.naturalhistorymag.com...]

“Tell children they are nothing more than animals and they will behave like animals.” I do not for a moment accept that the conclusion follows from the premise. But even if it did, once again, a disagreeable consequence cannot undermine the truth of a premise. Some have said that Hitler founded his political philosophy on Darwinism. This is nonsense: doctrines of racial superiority in no way follow from natural selection, properly understood. Nevertheless, a good case can be made that a society run on Darwinian lines would be a very disagreeable society in which to live. But, yet again, the unpleasantness of a proposition has no bearing on its truth.

Huxley, George C. Williams, and other evolutionists have opposed Darwinism as a political and moral doctrine just as passionately as they have advocated its scientific truth. I count myself in that company. Science needs to understand natural selection as a force in nature, the better to oppose it as a normative force in politics. Darwin himself expressed dismay at the callousness of natural selection: “What a book a Devil’s Chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low & horridly cruel works of nature!”

And what evolutionary theory CAN teach us about such things:

[Link: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu...]

To sum up: I’ve suggested that the dominant theory of human nature in modern intellectual life is based on the Blank Slate, the Noble Savage, and the Ghost in the Machine, and that these doctrines have been challenged by the sciences of mind, brain, genes, and evolution. The challenges have also been seen to threaten sacred moral values. But, in fact, that doesn’t follow. On the contrary, I think a better understanding of what makes us tick, and of our place in nature, can clarify those values. This understanding shows that political equality does not require sameness, but rather policies that treat people as individuals with rights; that moral progress does not require that the mind is free of selfish motives, only that it has other motives to counteract them; that responsibility does not require that behavior is uncaused, only that it responds to contingencies of credit and blame; and that meaning in life does not require that the process that shaped the brain have a purpose, only that the brain itself have a purpose.

Finally, I’ve argued that grounding values in a blank slate is a mistake. It’s a mistake because it makes our values hostages to fortune, implying that some day, discoveries from the field or lab could make them obsolete. And it’s a mistake because it conceals the downsides of denying human nature, including persecution of the successful, totalitarian social engineering, an exaggeration of the effects of the environment (such as in parenting and the criminal justice system), a mystification of the rationale behind responsibility, democracy, and morality, and the devaluating of human life on Earth.

Sal: Evolutionary theorists view eugenics as the very antithesis of evolutionary theory, for evolutionary theorists would advocate that environmental selection be left alone to proceed unhindered, while eugenicists invariably insist upon substituting their own 'intelligent' designs. What Plato, two millennia before Darwin was born, was recommending was not evolutionary theory, but instead eugenics; the ancient application of selective breeding, that people had done with crops, livestock and pets for thousands of years, to human beings. Darwin used selective breeding as an example in Origin of Species to demonstrate that traits pass on, but he never called such selection natural.

Eugenics is nothing other than creationism/ID, with megalomaniacal people usurping, or desiring to usurp, the roles of gods over the lives and choices of their fellow human beings.

663 Cato  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:27:09am

re: #662 Salamantis

Eugenics is nothing other than creationism/ID, with megalomaniacal people usurping, or desiring to usurp, the roles of gods over the lives and choices of their fellow human beings.

This position is contrary to the avowed position of every eugenicist of the early 20th century. Whether or not it is correct is irrelevant to what THEY thought their motivation was, and they thought it was explicitly Darwinian. This is why I agree with Dawkins that the theory itself must be divorced from its political practioners. It isn't a political theory, it is a scientific one. You can't derive "ought" from "is".

664 Hhar  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:30:18am

Hi Salamantis.

Eugenics is nothing other than creationism/ID, with megalomaniacal people usurping, or desiring to usurp, the roles of gods over the lives and choices of their fellow human beings.

I suppose that's true if you want to redefine creationism and ID. Sounds like (by your standards) Stalinism is also creationism ID. Its all so clear now.

665 Hhar  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:35:26am

Cato: Stove's phrase, that Darwinian biology is often a slander on humanity, is spot on.

I don't think his essays are rigorous, or deeply historical. I recall once or twice having trouble with his scholarship BUT I think he got a few things absolutely right.

666 Hhar  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:23:02am

Sorry cato: forgot

Dr Behe is a curious dude. He's a biochemist, a practicing Catholic and a leading "light" of the IDT crew. He wrote a book ("darwin's black box") wherein he proposed that cellular and physiological mechanisms were often "irreducibly complex" machines. By this he meant that all components of the machine have to be present before the machine will work. A mousetrap is a famous example. He developed the argument that if evolution assembles a biological machine by happenstance and piecemeal, then these machines cannot come about by evolution, because the pieces individually have no function. If they have no function unless all of them are present at the same time, and in the appropriate orientations, then Behe reasoned that the liklihood of all of the parts just happening to come together was remote, and was thus evidence of design.
The argument has been shredded, both fairly and unfairly, for many reasons. Firstly, Behe's scholarship was poor: some of the systems he said were irreducibly complex (ie blood clotting) are demonstrably not when one examines their comparative phylogeny. He talked of "the" bacterial flagellum, when in point of factthere are (ahem) quite a variety of bacterial flagellae. Secondly, he is not clear on what exactly a part of a biological machine is. This vagueness s actually unforgiveable, in my opinion. Thirdly, a machine may be irreducibly complex if used for one purpose, but its parts may have been used for different purposes in its evolutionary history, and co-opted to form a rudimentary machine, which can then be refined. Fourthly, some biological systems (ie steroid synthesis) that appear to need everything in place before they can work can be shown to have reasonable functional precursors that use alternate paths to help them along. Fifthly, saying that you do not kbnow how something evolved does not make design necessarily more ikely. It may simply mean that you don't know. And so on, and on and on. The point is, that from the point of view of biochemistry and cell biology, the idea that irreducible complexity=unevolvability=design is nonsense, because 1. irreducible complexity is itself not well defined and 2. unevolvability is essentially the proving of a negative and 3. you have to demonstrate that design itself is a plausible mechanism without the idea of unevolveability.

Now, Behe has been involved wth the discovery insitute (which has some very sneaky and crazy people as its "fellows" ) for a loooong time, and helped write "of Pandas and People", a creationist work that was morphed into an ID text simply by changing "creationism" to "intelligent design theory" everywhere in the text (no fooling. its true.) For this reason, he is called a creationist. However, in his most recent book, Behe says flatly that he endorse universal common descent, and his view of IDT is simply about the mechanism of evolution. Behe in person seems harmless enough: a bit dim, and intellectually dishonest, but not a pathological liar. He's aid that he hews to his Church's stance on evolution. I think it is reasonable to take him at his word on this, but others, because of his associations and past, insist that her MUST BE a creatiobnist, and creationism and ID are the same thing.

I think this is a mistake. If ID cannot be critiqued on its own ground, as science, and as poor crackpot science at that, then evolutionary biology has serious, serious problems. Caling ID "creationism" is simply an extended ad hominem attack: it may be true, but it has no bearing on the bedrock issue, which in this arena should ultimately be the scientific validity of the ideas.

667 Mr Secul  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:27:29am

re: #663 Cato

This is why I agree with Dawkins that the theory itself must be divorced from its political practioners. It isn't a political theory, it is a scientific one. You can't derive "ought" from "is".

Who is currently practicing eugenics?

668 Cato  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 3:58:03pm

re: #667 Mr Secul

Who is currently practicing eugenics?

If you believe, as I do, that choosing the sex of your offspring is a type of eugenics, then an awful lot of people in China and India. India in particular aborts female fetuses for no other reason than their sex and uses sonograms to aid in the process. I find this a repulsive practice.

But why do you ask?

669 Cato  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 4:04:03pm

re: #666 Hhar

Irreducible complexity is a losing argument for the reasons you cited. But it leads to further analysis. The more interesting question is whether Dawkins' gradualism or Gould's punctuated evolutionary theory is correct. My own bet is on Dawkins in most cases but Gould for certain very interesting cases. And that is where the real fascinating analysis will be. Ultimately, the religiously minded will find God's hand in the punctuated cases.

670 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:03:03pm

re: #664 Hhar

Hi Salamantis.

Eugenics is nothing other than creationism/ID, with megalomaniacal people usurping, or desiring to usurp, the roles of gods over the lives and choices of their fellow human beings.

I suppose that's true if you want to redefine creationism and ID. Sounds like (by your standards) Stalinism is also creationism ID. Its all so clear now.

The Stalinist Soviet Union actually doctrinally adhered to the quasiLamarckian (and unDarwinian) theories of Lysenko. They tried to run their agricultural enterprise according to his precepts, and tens of millions starved.

671 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:07:46pm

re: #663 Cato

Eugenics is nothing other than creationism/ID, with megalomaniacal people usurping, or desiring to usurp, the roles of gods over the lives and choices of their fellow human beings.

This position is contrary to the avowed position of every eugenicist of the early 20th century. Whether or not it is correct is irrelevant to what THEY thought their motivation was, and they thought it was explicitly Darwinian. This is why I agree with Dawkins that the theory itself must be divorced from its political practioners. It isn't a political theory, it is a scientific one. You can't derive "ought" from "is".

Science is neither communist nor fascist nor capitalist nor democratic nor theocratic, etc; it is empirical - not political, and not religious. Those who self-servingly misconstrue otherwise in order to futilely endeavor to justify their dubious actions are themselves at fault for such actions and their consequences, the fault lies not with the science to which they illegitimately appeal.

672 Mr Secul  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:09:01pm

re: #668 Cato

Who is currently practicing eugenics?

If you believe, as I do, that choosing the sex of your offspring is a type of eugenics, then an awful lot of people in China and India. India in particular aborts female fetuses for no other reason than their sex and uses sonograms to aid in the process. I find this a repulsive practice.

But why do you ask?

Because I don't see what it has to do with evolutionary theory.

Your example has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary theory and has everything to do with culture and economics.

And no, its not eugenics, there is no idea of improving the race or of favoring hereditary characteristics.

Last month I read somewhere that the proportion of female to male children is determined by the father's genes. If someone wanted to apply eugenic principles to the problem then they should record the proportions of females to males born to each man to determine who carries the genes that favor females and forbid those men and any of their male heirs from breeding.

But I doubt that the people who are killing their children would want to adopt that approach because its not beneficial to them. They need male heirs to keep them in old age

As for the use of sonograms — oh good grief! The practice of killing female children predates that technology and the science behind it. Before sonograms they would wait until the child was born and then kill it.

But I see the point that the technology adds convenience to the process and it wouldn't happen if abortions were forbidden.

Where did you hear about using sonograms? I would have thought that amniocentesis would have been the method of choice in technologically developed countries.

This page describes the techniques used in underdeveloped places. In Chinese state orphanages, abandoned female babies are left to die in their own filth.

I don't see that technology or science is at the root of this evil nor is its presence a necessary condition.

From the page above:

Some were fed dry, unhulled rice that punctured their windpipes, or were made to swallow poisonous powdered fertilizer. Others were smothered with a wet towel, strangled or allowed to starve to death." Dahlburg profiles one disturbing case from Tamil Nadu:

Lakshmi already had one daughter, so when she gave birth to a second girl, she killed her. For the three days of her second child's short life, Lakshmi admits, she refused to nurse her. To silence the infant's famished cries, the impoverished village woman squeezed the milky sap from an oleander shrub, mixed it with castor oil, and forced the poisonous potion down the newborn's throat. The baby bled from the nose, then died soon afterward. Female neighbors buried her in a small hole near Lakshmi's square thatched hut of sunbaked mud. They sympathized with Lakshmi, and in the same circumstances, some would probably have done what she did. For despite the risk of execution by hanging and about 16 months of a much-ballyhooed government scheme to assist families with daughters, in some hamlets of ... Tamil Nadu, murdering girls is still sometimes believed to be a wiser course than raising them. "A daughter is always liabilities. How can I bring up a second?" Lakshmi, 28, answered firmly when asked by a visitor how she could have taken her own child's life eight years ago. "Instead of her suffering the way I do, I thought it was better to get rid of her." (All quotes from Dahlburg, "Where killing baby girls 'is no big sin'.")

673 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:21:04pm

re: #669 Cato

Irreducible complexity is a losing argument for the reasons you cited. But it leads to further analysis. The more interesting question is whether Dawkins' gradualism or Gould's punctuated evolutionary theory is correct. My own bet is on Dawkins in most cases but Gould for certain very interesting cases. And that is where the real fascinating analysis will be. Ultimately, the religiously minded will find God's hand in the punctuated cases.

It doesn't have to be either/or; gradualism and punctuated equilibrum may be viewed not as mutually exclusive, but as poles on a rate-of-change continuum. Baseline rates of evolutionary change are different for differing species, and these rates also accelerate or decelerate depending upon the environmental stressors present, or their absence. But of course the stressors themselves cannot selectively reach from the environment into the genome and willfully and intelligently decide WHICH mutations In PARTICULAR will occur; they can just cause, by the very degree of organism stresses that they induce in members of a given species, more mutations or less mutations to occur IN GENERAL.

674 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:39:39pm

re: #665 Hhar

Cato: Stove's phrase, that Darwinian biology is often a slander on humanity, is spot on.

I don't think his essays are rigorous, or deeply historical. I recall once or twice having trouble with his scholarship BUT I think he got a few things absolutely right.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excerpt:

Stove is best known for scathing attacks, especially on Popperian falsificationism, Marxism, feminism, and postmodernism. Some regard him as a witty defender of common sense, who defeated inductive skepticism. Others, however, reject his arguments for induction and his criticisms of the philosophies of contemporaries Karl Popper, Thomas Kuhn, Imre Lakatos, and Paul Feyerabend. Some view Stove as a reactionary controversialist.

Stove also wrote articles on a variety of topics for non-philosophical magazines. He achieved increased prominence in North America in the early 2000s when art critic and conservative pundit Roger Kimball published a collection of his essays. Since his death in 1994 four collections of his writings have been published.

Scott Campbeel remarks that David Stove was far from the ally that creationists construed him to be:
[Link: web.maths.unsw.edu.au...]

Stove’s attack on Darwinism was not as radical as it appeared - he accepted evolution was true of all living things, and said he had no objection to natural selection being true of non-human animals.

And then there's this:

The Intellectual Capacity of Women
[Link: web.maths.unsw.edu.au...]

to which Jenny Teichmann replied thusly:

The Intellectual Capacity of David Stove
[Link: cscs.umich.edu...]

675 Hhar  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:07:09am

re: #671 Salamantis

Right. And if you think creationism ID is as you defined it, you think Stalinism is a form of creationism. Which is completely ahistorical, misguided and wrong.

What's your point?

676 Hhar  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:30:48am

re: #673 Salamantis

It doesn't have to be either/or; gradualism and punctuated equilibrium may be viewed not as mutually exclusive, but as poles on a rate-of-change continuum. Baseline rates of evolutionary change are different for differing species, and these rates also accelerate or decelerate depending upon the environmental stressors present, or their absence. But of course the stressors themselves cannot selectively reach from the environment into the genome and willfully and intelligently decide WHICH mutations In PARTICULAR will occur; they can just cause, by the very degree of organism stresses that they induce in members of a given species, more mutations or less mutations to occur IN GENERAL.


You are all over the place. In prokaryotes, environmental stressors are thought by some to induce mutations at increased rates in the very genes that are used to respond to the stress. The mechanism is thought to be due to DNA hypercoiling at hotly transcribed sites. These mutations are then passed on in binary fission. So there is no "of course" about it.

Finally, gradualism and punk-eek should not simply be viewed as a comfortable continuum that will allow us all to go back to sleep.. The way Gould came round to seeing it was that higher order phenomena (ie species selection) might drive patterns of phyletic radiation. The classification of the ideas as simply matters of degree ignores an underlying idea that Gould had (species selection) which some prominent analysts of evolutionary theory hold is a distinct causal level different from standard population genetics models of evolution. It is true that the taphonomic evidence of punctuation may in some cases be well explained by gradualist mechanisms, but that is ignoring the most radical and insightful idea that Gould proposed. I suggest you read Okasha's "Evolution and The Levels of Selection" as well as Eliot Sober's "The Nature of Selection". But you in particular need to read Ruses' "The Evolution Creation Struggle" first.

677 Hhar  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:41:09am

re: #671 Salamantis

Science is neither communist nor fascist nor capitalist nor democratic nor theocratic, etc; it is empirical - not political, and not religious. Those who self-servingly misconstrue otherwise in order to futilely endeavor to justify their dubious actions are themselves at fault for such actions and their consequences, the fault lies not with the science to which they illegitimately appeal.

Science is based in empiricism, but ideologies, economics and cultural aspects can massively intrude, and have massively intruded in the past. They will again. No matter how many polysyllables you throw at it, science is a social activity, and its progress can be moulded without malign intent by social forces. None of this is to say that science isn't a good way to pursue truth: of course it is. Its value is easily demonstrable, and superior in the examination of objective empirical reality to any other. But enough of the cheerleading, OK?

678 Cato  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:33:42am

re: #672 Mr Secul

You asked whether anyone currently practices eugenics and I answered. If you believe that choice of sex is not at least in part based on notion that men are somehow superior, then I think you misread culture.

As for where I heard about sonogramsw being used, it was on a 60 Minutes or 20/20 report probably 15 years ago. I would assume that amnio would be used today, but sonograms were confirmed. Do I think we should get rid of amnio or sonograms? No. My wife and I used them ourselves and found them comforting.

If you think I am a technophobe, you are wrong. If it were up to me there would be an atom smasher under every high school. I often criticised Michael Creighton's fiction as being technophobic. Is there any other lingering questions you have about my outlook?

re: #677 Hhar

One point about evolution that Stove makes is that in Darwin's formulation is explicitly based on the Malthusean argument. Populations increase up to their food supply. It is one of the few scientific theories that looks to a political economic theory.

679 Hhar  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:36:13am

re: #678 Cato

re: #677 Hhar

One point about evolution that Stove makes is that in Darwin's formulation is explicitly based on the Malthusean argument. Populations increase up to their food supply. It is one of the few scientific theories that looks to a political economic theory.

Well, it would be more appropriate to say that in its genesis, and for many years thereafter, Darwinian biology cited Malthus heavily. It doesn't really any more except as a teaching tool: ecology and population biology explicitly recognise the complexities of population control, and the widespread (and by now very old) heuristic of r and K selected organisms demonstrates that Darwinian biologists understand full well that Malthus' ideas are not so generally applicable. The current emphases on (for instance) parasitism, symbiosis, co-evolution and ecological networks is a far cry from Malthus' rather primitive ideas.

But I agree that politco-economic theory has affected Darwinian biology. Game theory, optimality theory, economic analyses: all of these started life in the politocal/economic sphere, and all of these were applied secondarily to evolution. There is nothing I see wrong with this; both economic and biological systems have important and explicitly historical, contingent and frequency dependant aspects to them, so a tool that has analytic power in one area can be expected to have some analytic power in another. However, the interesting Joan Roughgarden has critiqued analyses of reproduction as being biased by social structures. More to the point on this blog, I have spoken to ecologists from the Mideast, who lament the poor quality of ecological studies in the area, and note that (for obvious reasons) most of the ornithology and mammology focuses on organisms mentioned in the Koran. The list goes on.

Anticreationism can quickly degenerate into narrow secularist cheerleading and atheist triumphalism, both of which I personally detest. If "scientific creationism" were not such a travesty, and its propagators not so deeply mendacious and so invidious to secular pluralism, I would be far less tolerant of many of its critics.

PS: Ultrasonography is non-nvasive, while amniocentesis has a low, but non-trivial complication rate which often involves loss of the pregnancy (ie poking a needle into the uterus can precipitate labour). If amniocentesis is not indicated for medical reasons (e.g. family history, advanced maternal age, fetal anomalies demonstrated on sonography etc), gender determination is generally and reliably done by ultrasonography. Amniocentesis and ultrasonography are complimentary diagnostic tools, and don't replace each other. (I'm an MD.)

680 Cato  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:18:29pm

re: #679 Hhar

I agree with just about everything you write. One slight issue -- game theory started as a purely mathematical concept, not a political one. I'm a von Neumann nut.


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