Anti-Obama Rumor Mill Exposed Again

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Another ridiculous Internet rumor bites the dust: Obama OK’d 2 SEAL teams for pirates.

President Obama dispatched two separate teams of Navy commandos to carry out last week’s rescue of a merchant ship captain held hostage by Somali pirates but left the operational details and rules of engagement to military commanders, National Security Adviser James. L. Jones said Tuesday.

“I can tell you from a White House and presidential standpoint, there was no conflict, no gnashing of teeth, or excessive influence in trying to manage this thing,” Mr. Jones, a retired Marine Corps four-star general, told The Washington Times in an interview.

He and other military officials gave the most detailed account to date of how Navy SEAL forces were dispatched - first from a base in Africa and later from the United States - to carry out the mission, and how Pentagon officials communicated with the White House. They sought to dispel Internet reports that the military was delayed from taking action by indecision inside the White House.

“I don’t recognize” the information being circulated on the Internet, Mr. Jones said. …

Among the reports disputed by Pentagon officials was a widely circulated Internet critique - purportedly from an anonymous source close to the SEAL community - saying Navy SEALs missed a chance to shoot the pirates on April 10 when Richard Phillips, the captain of the hijacked freighter, jumped out of a lifeboat where he was being held in a failed escape attempt.

However, military officials at the Pentagon involved in the operation said Navy SEAL snipers had not arrived on board the Bainbridge at that time and therefore could not have fired on the pirates.

Contrary to the critical report, the president did not reject two proposed rescue attempts by U.S. forces prior to the sniper attack, Mr. Jones said.

Dozens of people posted this false rumor at LGF, in our comments and in spinoff links, and dozens of blogs reported it uncritically—because it played into what they wanted to believe about Barack Obama, that he deserved no credit for the rescue operation in Somalia. I did not post the story at LGF because, frankly, it stank.

This should be an object lesson in: 1) the folly of trusting unsourced rumors that circulate through email and blogs, and 2) the pitfalls of being so ideologically driven that you give in to hatred and believe stories that are—very obviously—suspect.

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281 comments

1 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:33:07am

Nonetheless, I'd still be interested in whether the SEAL teams were approved by Obama, or his teleprompter.

/only half joking.

2 saylorfam  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:33:21am

here we go again

3 apachegunner  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:33:29am

nothing changes?

4 CIA Reject  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:33:44am
This should be an object lesson in: 1) the folly of trusting unsourced rumors that circulate through email and blogs, and 2) the pitfalls of being so ideologically driven that you give in to hatred and believe stories that are—very obviously—suspect.

Ideological blindness leads to downfall every time ...

5 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:33:46am
This should be an object lesson in: 1) the folly of trusting unsourced rumors that circulate through email and blogs, and 2) the pitfalls of being so ideologically driven that you give in to hatred and believe stories that are—very obviously—suspect.

Well said.

6 Athens Runaway  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:33:49am
“I don’t recognize” the information being circulated on the Internet, Mr. Jones said. ...

This is not the information that I once knew?

7 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:34:08am

We have so many things to criticize 0bama for, we can give him the credit for the few he does right.

8 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:34:45am
This should be an object lesson in: 1) the folly of trusting unsourced rumors that circulate through email and blogs

Yes, of course. But weren't at least elements of the story supported by a New York Times report, IIRC?

9 BLBfootballs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:35:21am

Clarity is good.

10 wee fury  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:35:21am

This is why I respect Charles and his blog.

11 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:35:27am

re: #8 Occasional Reader

Yes, of course. But weren't at least elements of the story supported by a New York Times report, IIRC?

Who reads that?

12 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:35:39am

And I will retract my speculation about a weapons hold and ROE I made about the Navy's early response.

13 JacksonTn  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:35:41am

All I care about is that the captain is safe ... if anyone thinks they would ever hear the real story of what happens when SEALS are deployed on a mission ... they are mistaken ... they do not tell ... next page ....

14 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:36:02am
The team was flown by transport aircraft and parachuted to waters near the warship

Sheesh, and I bitch about having to be in the middle seat in coach...

15 MJ  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:36:15am

This was reported on O'Reilly last night as fact. They had on Col. David Hunt who claimed that the Bureaucracy interfered with the operation:

16 LionofDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:37:07am

This guy may not be the best source....after all he is a political appointee....he works for Obama.
Seems the left didn't give too much credence to former Bush advisors Conodoleeza Rice and Steven Hadley.

There is a double standard. I will wait for non-politicized facts from those in the know rather than what appears to be political spin from a guy who works for Obama.

17 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:37:22am

Where on the web did these stories originate and who was posting them here? Related to the Somali pirates I've maybe linked a couple items just from straight news sources as events unfolded and more recently the pirate activist to be put on trial in New York, but I'm not quite familiar with these alternate reality stories.

18 Land Shark  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:37:25am

re: #7 Kosh's Shadow

Exactly. I'm as opposed to Obama as anybody is, but if you buy into every rumor you just wind up looking like a total fool. Sadly, too many Conservatives are so desperate right now they'll believe anything.

19 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:38:06am

It is the Lesson of the Throbbing Memo.

20 J Doc  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:38:12am

Every President becomes a Hawk on taking office. It is unfortunate that he had act/be such a Dove to get elected.

21 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:38:23am
This should be an object lesson in: 1) the folly of trusting unsourced rumors that circulate through email and blogs, and 2) the pitfalls of being so ideologically driven that you give in to hatred and believe stories that are—very obviously—suspect.

Exactly. One must be careful with where a story comes from. Been trying to take that to heart myself with the links I find for the spinoff link section.

For example, there was a decent sounding article over at NRO this morning regarding Hollywood's dislike of humanity in two films (The Day the Earth Stood Still (2008), and The Happening). I read through it, and then I got to the end. The author was a member of the Discovery Institute. I dropped the article like a rock and moved on. The very association and taint of his membership made the article suspect.

22 thatemailname  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:38:27am

I got that story in an email from a fellow who's been emailing like crazy ever since he got a hold of a tea party email list. I responded and asked, do you have a source for this story that I can link to? His answer was no, he didn't, it was sent to him by an "old military friend". Uhh, yeah.

23 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:38:37am
This should be an object lesson in: 1) the folly of trusting unsourced rumors that circulate through email and blogs, and 2) the pitfalls of being so ideologically driven that you give in to hatred and believe stories that are—very obviously—suspect.

Well, I guess that pretty much proves it.

Charles is a card-carrying member of the Communist Bilderberg Illuminati conspiracy. He's probably cycling around the Bohemian Grove right now.

/

24 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:38:47am

re: #17 JammieWearingFool

Where on the web did these stories originate and who was posting them here? Related to the Somali pirates I've maybe linked a couple items just from straight news sources as events unfolded and more recently the pirate activist to be put on trial in New York, but I'm not quite familiar with these alternate reality stories.

ACTIVIST? How harsh and demeaning. He's a Somali Coast Guard Volunteer working for tips.

25 Summer Seale  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:38:54am

The thing is, Obama talks a great talk about being this peaceful "bringing everyone together guy", and he has had his moments where meeting with the likes of Chavez makes me feel very upset, but he is not the peaceful leftist moron that the right or the left make him out to be.

At least he hasn't been yet. His actions so far lead me to believe that he's duped a lot of people, but he's a really stern guy when it comes to actually killing the enemy on the battlefield.

26 Anthony (Los Angeles)  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:39:00am

While I give more credence to sources willing to be identified, this isn't a 100% unbiased source. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle, though I'm willing to give Obama credit for not micromanaging, unlike Carter in Iran.

27 jaunte  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:39:12am
"The anonymous SEAL source stated in the Internet posting that was attributed to "some SEAL pals in Virginia Beach" that the president would not authorize the SEALs to deploy for 36 hours despite requests from the on-scene commander."

Key word; anonymous source on the internet. "I heard it from the grapevine."

28 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:39:26am

I don't believe unnamed sources but I also don't fully believe Administration Generals. And I also don't think the details of an operation such as this ever really need to be made public. Obama was the President when the Hostage was successfully rescued. That is really all I need to know at the moment. Next.

29 DistantThunder  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:39:33am

Colonel David Hunt on O'Reilley confirmed the jist of the emails, last night.

30 OldLineTexan  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:39:54am

re: #23 Kenneth

Well, I guess that pretty much proves it.

Charles is a card-carrying member of the Communist Bilderberg Illuminati conspiracy. He's probably cycling around the Bohemian Grove right now.

/

It's China Grove now, due to selling of bail-out Treasury securities.

/The Doobie Brothers are pissed

31 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:40:13am

re: #17 JammieWearingFool

Where on the web did these stories originate and who was posting them here?


Pretty much all of these rumors and conspiracy theories (DHS memo, FEMA camps, Obama's secret plan to nationalize the economy, etc) inevitably trace back Alex Jones and Paulian sources.

32 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:40:16am

A (very old, 85+) friend of mine sent me a link to the original article (which I had already read).
I replied that I couldn't take a report from "somebody who had SEAL friends who said ..." as gospel, but the tone of the article didn't sound too made up, given my personal bias against Obama.

I just e-mailed her this link and said "the timelines in the article make sense".

I rarely up or down ding an article thread. This one is an exception.

33 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:40:57am

re: #28 Nevergiveup

I don't believe unnamed sources but I also don't fully believe Administration Generals. And I also don't think the details of an operation such as this ever really need to be made public. Obama was the President when the Hostage was successfully rescued. That is really all I need to know at the moment. Next.

Absolutely.

I'm glad that Captain Philips is safe. I don't really care about much else.

34 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:41:20am

Well I was one who was critical of how Obama handled things. Namely, I posted assertions from both the New York Times and Bloomberg that Obama had (1) only authorized deadly force against the pirates if the life of the hostage was in imminent danger and (2) that there was an ongoing negotiation with the pirates that had resulted in a "deal".

I didn't see either as positive and felt the sources were generally reputable, especially given the praise that both Bloomberg and the NYT are apt to heap on Obama.

35 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:41:26am

Remember, Sandy Berger was also National Security Advisor to Clinton. And I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth.

36 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:41:28am

re: #23 Kenneth

Well, I guess that pretty much proves it.

Charles is a card-carrying member of the Communist Bilderberg Illuminati conspiracy. He's probably cycling around the Bohemian Grove right now.

/

I thought it was the Pentaverate and he was cycling around The Meadows with the Rothchildes and the Col Sander's heirs.

37 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:41:35am

Well, and there's this:

Vice Adm. William Gortney, commander of Navy forces in the Middle East, told reporters on Sunday that "there were standing orders that if [Mr. Phillips] was at risk and we on scene determined that he was under imminent danger, to go ahead and take decisive action."

Authorities went through "a deliberate, slow deliberate process to let the negotiation process work itself out to a nonviolent end," he said. "And unfortunately, that did not occur."

You'll have to forgive me for noting that something still seems not quite right with those ROE. When was Capt. Phillips not "at risk" while being held hostage by gun-toting pirates?

(That said, the internet rumor always sent up red flags for me... yes, of course, Chatty Cathy SEALS leaking operational details via e-mail, happens all the time, right?
/)

38 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:41:53am

The denial continues.

39 JacksonTn  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:41:57am

re: #35 LionOfDixon

Remember, Sandy Berger was also National Security Advisor to Clinton. And I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth.

LoD ... or his pants ...

40 Dave the.....  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:41:57am

To echo what is said before.....I hate ODS rumors. There is a lot not to like about this guy.....poor economic knowledge, friendly to anti-American dictators, playing up anti-Bush hatred yet, but that doesn't mean to engage in falsehoods.

Remember right wing anti-Clinton stories.....he has AIDS, he has fathered a black child in Arkansas (not that there is anything wrong with that), all the murders he ordered, and Hillary's lesbian affairs.....

41 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:42:42am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

The denial continues.

Really.

42 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:43:24am

re: #40 Dave the.....

To echo what is said before.....I hate ODS rumors. There is a lot not to like about this guy.....poor economic knowledge, friendly to anti-American dictators, playing up anti-Bush hatred yet, but that doesn't mean to engage in falsehoods.

Remember right wing anti-Clinton stories.....he has AIDS, he has fathered a black child in Arkansas (not that there is anything wrong with that), all the murders he ordered, and Hillary's lesbian affairs.....

I kept hoping for pictures on that last one ...
//

43 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:43:37am

re: #16 LionofDixon

This guy may not be the best source....after all he is a political appointee....he works for Obama.
Seems the left didn't give too much credence to former Bush advisors Conodoleeza Rice and Steven Hadley.

There is a double standard. I will wait for non-politicized facts from those in the know rather than what appears to be political spin from a guy who works for Obama.

Ok, then what the fuck would you consider a "best" source? Who are "those in the know?" Do we go by your standards only?

44 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:43:48am

re: #2 saylorfam

here we go again

Yep. Don't expect Jeff Goldstein, RS McCain, or the rest of those haters to give Charles any credit for not buying into this.

45 VegasRick  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:43:50am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

The denial continues.

You really should stop.

46 jaunte  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:44:02am

Shiny objects continue to distract.

47 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:44:11am

re: #39 JacksonTn

Or his socks. When I first heard that Sloppy Sandy was stuffing documents in socks, I felt really sorry for Chelsea's cat.

48 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:44:19am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Pretty much all of these rumors and conspiracy theories (DHS memo, FEMA camps, Obama's secret plan to nationalize the economy, etc) inevitably trace back Alex Jones and Paulian sources.

Much as they did from MoveOn, Media Matters, and other such places while Bush was President. One must use extreme caution and fact checking when something comes from one of those type of groups, be it Alex Jones or MoveOn.

49 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:45:02am

re: #8 Occasional Reader

Yes, of course. But weren't at least elements of the story supported by a New York Times report, IIRC?

It was found that Barack Obama was in fact President of the US at the time, yes.

50 Rednek  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:45:02am

Finding reasons to be critical of Obama is like picking fruit from a low hanging tree.

It is so easy to get the ripe and juicy ones that those that smell funny should just be ignored.

51 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:45:25am
I did not post the story at LGF because, frankly, it stank.

Some people's noses need a tune-up. Frankly, I'm surprised yours still works so well, with a guy named "Stinky" hanging around.

52 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:45:28am

re: #46 jaunte

Shiny objects continue to distract.

WOOOOOOO! SHINY!

/Dashes off frantically

53 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:45:57am

OK Everyone -

Bill Gertz is reporting more or less the DoD/White House line on this one. Gertz is one tough egg. If it is good enough for Gertz, it is good enough for me.

-S-

54 boatguyjim  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:46:01am

Good for you Charles! from Special Boat Team 22, NAVSCIATTS and Naval Special Warfare Group 4

55 ConservatismNow!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:46:07am

You know what. I'm going to believe James L. Jones. Not because he's the NSA for the President. James L. Jones was Commandant of the Marine Corps when I was in.

From his Wikipedia entry:

After retiring from the Marine Corps, Jones remained involved in national security and foreign policy issues. In 2007, Jones served as chairman of the Congressional Independent Commission on the Security Forces of Iraq, which investigated the capabilities of the Iraqi police and armed forces. In November 2007, he was appointed by the U.S. Secretary of State as special envoy for Middle East security. He served as chairman of the Atlantic Council of the United States from June 2007 to January 2009, when he assumed the post of National Security Advisor
56 yma o hyd  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:46:11am

What needs to be learned from this and all the other ODS 'news' is that they not only play into the hands of the government crowd - they take up time because one's got to bash them into the ground, and make all who use them look like idiots.

Far worse - this stuff distracts from what the government is really doing.

We've fallen into these traps in the early years of the NuLab government - don't you go and do it! Its a waste of time, capacity, resources, and its ultimately politically counter-productive and thus stupid.

So don't you go and fall into the same trap!

57 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:46:16am

re: #50 Rednek

Finding reasons to be critical of Obama is like picking fruit from a low hanging tree.

It is so easy to get the ripe and juicy ones that those that smell funny should just be ignored.

Upding. Especially when a snake disguised as an angel is recommending it.

58 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:46:36am

re: #51 wrenchwench

Some people's noses need a tune-up. Frankly, I'm surprised yours still works so well, with a guy named "Stinky" hanging around.

And here I thought Mr. Beaumont got his nickname from the stinky comments and commentators he takes out to the dumpster out back.

59 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:46:38am

re: #49 Zimriel

It was found that Barack Obama was in fact President of the US at the time, yes.

Cute. But I'm referring to an NY Times story that mentioned something about two requests to the White House to allow action being denied... words to that effect. I'd have to look for it.

60 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:46:49am

re: #46 jaunte

Shiny objects continue to distract.

61 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:47:43am

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Calm down. I go by my standards. You go by yours. And I believe the best source would be the Seal Team Commander or Officer in Charge and/or perhaps the CO of the Bainbridge -- not a politcal appointee. Seems awfully simple to me

62 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:48:10am

re: #21 Honorary Yooper

For example, there was a decent sounding article over at NRO this morning regarding Hollywood's dislike of humanity in two films (The Day the Earth Stood Still (2008), and The Happening). I read through it, and then I got to the end. The author was a member of the Discovery Institute. I dropped the article like a rock and moved on. The very association and taint of his membership made the article suspect.

IMO, that association makes National Review suspect at this point.

63 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:48:50am

Hot Air readers are already starting conspiracy theories about this story....
Acting CFO of Freddie Mac found dead of apparent suicide

Shades of Vince Foster…..

and the story will get more interesting, you bet it will.

......

Not the First Mysterious Death to surround Obama

April 19 was the one-year anniversary of the murder of the FBI informant in the Obama/Passport file case. He was killed sitting in his car outside a church in DC.

The case is yet to be solved. Some say he was about to break information on Obama’s 1982 trip to Pakistan using a Pakistani passport. This at a time when travel by US citizens to Pakistan was severely restricted.

64 VegasRick  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:48:52am

re: #59 Occasional Reader

Cute. But I'm referring to an NY Times story that mentioned something about two requests to the White House to allow action being denied... words to that effect. I'd have to look for it.

I am a firm believer that there are two sides to every story. Three if you include the truth. Always somewhere in the middle.

65 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:49:29am

re: #55 ConservatismNow!

Wesley Clark blew that theory for me.

66 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:49:54am

re: #21 Honorary Yooper

I dropped the article like a rock and moved on. The very association and taint of his membership made the article suspect.

Yes, and my bad for posting that without reading the author's byline. That said, his description of the films does square with other reviews I have read (I haven't seen the films).

67 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:50:12am
68 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:50:28am

re: #62 Zimriel

IMO, that association makes National Review suspect at this point.

However, they do have others on there as well, such as Thomas Sowell, Larry Kudlow, and Victor Davis Hanson. I haven't seen this Smith character around there much.

69 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:50:39am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Hot Air readers are already starting conspiracy theories about this story....
Acting CFO of Freddie Mac found dead of apparent suicide

"Now they're KILLING people!"

/pam

70 ConservatismNow!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:50:41am

re: #65 LionOfDixon

Wesley Clark blew that theory for me.

Then that's on you. I'll trust Mr. Jones until he gives me reason to do otherwise.

71 VegasRick  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:50:49am

re: #65 LionOfDixon

Wesley Clark blew that theory for me.

I was suprised he could get his lips around it.

72 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:51:26am

So much for all the "five days of indecision" crap. Thanks Charles.

73 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:51:38am

re: #71 VegasRick

I was suprised he could get his lips around it.

/thud

74 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:51:39am

re: #61 LionOfDixon

Calm down. I go by my standards. You go by yours. And I believe the best source would be the Seal Team Commander or Officer in Charge and/or perhaps the CO of the Bainbridge -- not a politcal appointee. Seems awfully simple to me

That information is classified. Why on earth do you think that you, or any other civilian know-nothing has a right to have that information?

Just releasing the statement above could put future ships' crews in more danger. The more operational info that gets into the press, the WORSE it is for those folks whose asses are actually out there on the line.

75 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:51:43am

re: #69 Zimriel

Obama lied. People died.

76 Lib Wingnut  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:51:54am

re: #1 Diamond Bullet

Your a douche.

/not joking at all.

77 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:52:23am

re: #69 Zimriel

I haven't visited the crazy blogs yet this morning. I'm sure she'll be all over the story.

78 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:52:32am

re: #67 buzzsawmonkey

"Yes, you're spot on here--so why do you tie yourself up with a batch of destructive loonies?" Of course, I'm pretty sure of the answer; he likely thinks that the cure for the nihilism he sees is to "get G-d back in the schools",

And I do have to say, his observation about Brave New World was very astute; Huxley postuled a world in which people really had no core beliefs, but in fact we're hard-wired to have them. So people will always look for something... including Gaia-worshipping loopiness.

79 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:52:42am

re: #65 LionOfDixon

Wesley Clark blew that theory for me.

Evidently your opinion is the only right one. Sorry.

80 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:52:54am

re: #59 Occasional Reader

Cute. But I'm referring to an NY Times story that mentioned something about two requests to the White House to allow action being denied... words to that effect. I'd have to look for it.

I know the article you're talking about. If I remember correctly, it said that a request was made on Friday night, and again on Saturday morning, finally getting Obama's approval then. Exactly what the requests were, they did not specifically report that I recall.

This conflicted with other reports that said Obama "twice signed off" (I think that's how FNC put it) on plans to retrieve Captain Phillips. Some stories seemed to suggest there was a rescue plan, and some plainly said they could only act in the case of imminent danger to Captain Philips' life.

There has been a lot of bad information flying about this story, and plenty of it in the mainstream media. I think that's partially because when the media reports on military matters, they don't understand distinctions in terminology, so they talk out of their asses in a rush to beat everyone else to the story.

81 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:53:16am

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Hot Air readers are already starting conspiracy theories about this story....
Acting CFO of Freddie Mac found dead of apparent suicide

It's sad that this guy decided to take his own life, and even sadder that people are exploiting the tragedy.

82 JacksonTn  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:53:18am

re: #74 funky chicken

That information is classified. Why on earth do you think that you, or any other civilian know-nothing has a right to have that information?

Just releasing the statement above could put future ships' crews in more danger. The more operational info that gets into the press, the WORSE it is for those folks whose asses are actually out there on the line.

FC ... our parents generation had it right a long time ago ... Lose Lips Sink Ships ... but that was when we were all pretty much on the same side ... America ...

83 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:53:19am

re: #68 Honorary Yooper

However, they do have others on there as well, such as Thomas Sowell, Larry Kudlow, and Victor Davis Hanson. I haven't seen this Smith character around there much.

Thomas Sowell had a disappointing column yesterday.

84 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:53:54am

re: #80 capitalist piglet

I think that's partially because when the media reports on military matters, they don't understand distinctions in terminology

Agreed. E.g., "Obama gave the order to shoot!"

85 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:53:56am

re: #74 funky chicken

That information is classified. Why on earth do you think that you, or any other civilian know-nothing has a right to have that information?

Just releasing the statement above could put future ships' crews in more danger. The more operational info that gets into the press, the WORSE it is for those folks whose asses are actually out there on the line.

LionOfDixon doesn't care. He is SO intent on bashing Obama, he KNOWS what is best for EVERYTHING.

ODS is my diagnosis.

86 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:53:56am

A sitting President wants to look strong & decisive. His enemies want him to look weak & frozen in indecision.
What is the actual truth? Your probably not going to get it from an unnamed source.
General Jones is credible, he has a full pension.

87 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:53:57am

re: #21 Honorary Yooper

Was it Klinghoffer?

88 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:54:04am

OK, this is NOT an anti Obama rumor. When Obama proposes a 100 million budget cut to help with his “fiscal responsibility” credentials he is doing nothing.... really nothing.

I like this quote:

To put those numbers in perspective, imagine that the head of a household with annual spending of $100,000 called everyone in the family together to deal with a $34,000 budget shortfall. How much would he or she announce that spending had to be cut? By $3 over the course of the year–approximately the cost of one latte at Starbucks. The other $33,997? We can put that on the family credit card and worry about it next year.”


Harvard University economics professor Greg Mankiw

89 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:54:11am

re: #74 funky chicken

What makes you think I am a civilian? And if, by your standard, the information is classified and could harm people, why is the National Security Advisor shooting his mouth off about operational details?

The best sources would be the individuals I mentioned. I did not say they would be forthcoming with the information. I highly doubt they will while on active duty.

90 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:54:55am

And now, an extra special performance of Blame Canada sponsored by our very own Department of Homeland Security.

91 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:55:13am

re: #83 wrenchwench

Thomas Sowell had a disappointing column yesterday.

I know, I saw it. He's usually pretty good. Maybe he got caught like so many hearing the hype without seeing the substance. I'll admit, I got upset about it when I first heard about the DHS report. Then I saw it, and settled down.

92 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:55:15am

Why were the snipers not put on board immediately?

93 jaunte  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:55:26am

re: #88 Buck

Overspending is the real security issue.

94 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:55:35am

re: #83 wrenchwench

Thomas Sowell had a disappointing column yesterday.

Everybody has a bad day occasionally.

95 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:55:40am

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

My opinion isn't right because it is mine. It is mine because it is right.

96 windsword  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:55:46am
“I can tell you from a White House and presidential standpoint, there was no conflict, no gnashing of teeth, or excessive influence in trying to manage this thing,” Mr. Jones, a retired Marine Corps four-star general, told The Washington Times in an interview.


From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

97 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:56:06am

re: #87 funky chicken

Was it Klinghoffer?

No, some guy called Wesley Smith. Never saw his articles there or anywhere else before that I can remember.

98 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:56:16am

re: #90 Zimriel

And now, an extra special performance of Blame Canada sponsored by our very own Department of Homeland Security.

.
. She is fast becoming a national disgrace

99 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:56:26am

I went a few rounds with a couple people on these salacious rumors so vindication is felt here.

Thanks for the follow up Charles.

100 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:56:30am

re: #92 Spare O'Lake

Why were the snipers not put on board immediately?

Because it takes time to cut orders? Because it takes time to get sniper teams in place based on where various assets are located?

101 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:56:53am

re: #65 LionOfDixon

Wesley Clark blew that theory for me.

I agree with that. If this was Wesley Clark, I would be sceptical, but General Jones is another matter.

102 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:57:04am

re: #92 Spare O'Lake

Why were the snipers not put on board immediately?

Scotty was not available to man the Transporter.

More seriously, there maybe is an operational lesson here, that they should keep more Special Operations capacity closer on hand to that theater of operations.

103 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:57:06am

I figured I would give these reports the 24 hour rule or whatever it's called. I had heard that the SEALs weren't around when the Captain first jumped ship but the Bainbridge could have sank the lifeboat but didn't. Someone dropped the ball there, who we may never know.

104 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:57:25am

re: #95 LionOfDixon

My opinion isn't right because it is mine. It is mine because it is right.

Sure (backing away slowly).

105 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:57:26am

re: #92 Spare O'Lake

Why were the snipers not put on board immediately?

Probably because it takes a while to get people transported from various locations around the world to a ship in the middle of the ocean.

106 MJ  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:57:35am

re: #96 windsword

From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

Huh?
Truman didn't fly the plane that dropped the bomb on Japan. I guess by your logic he shouldn't get the credit for helping end WWII.

FDR didn't land at Normandy either.

107 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:58:02am

re: #88 Buck

OK, this is NOT an anti Obama rumor. When Obama proposes a 100 million budget cut to help with his “fiscal responsibility” credentials he is doing nothing.... really nothing.

I like this quote:


Harvard University economics professor Greg Mankiw


Barry ain't no econ wiz.

108 DawnofTruth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:58:17am

re: #66 Occasional Reader

I have seen both films. I can say without a shadow of doubt, what a bunch of crock. Both films basic premise is Man is bad, Man must die. I love Sci Fi shows but these were just bad

109 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:58:39am

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Perhaps you could elucidate for me which opinions of yours are wrong?

110 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:58:42am

re: #46 jaunte

Shiny objects continue to distract.

Not naow. Is wachin birdie.

111 jaunte  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:58:53am

re: #97 Honorary Yooper

Here's a Sourcewatch bio on Wesley J. Smith:
[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

112 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:59:04am

BOO!

113 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:59:14am

re: #96 windsword

From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

Er... that's kind of an odd way of viewing it. If Obama really gave the on-scene commanders broad authority, and didn't try to micromanage, that would be a GOOD thing. (Me, I'm still hung up on the description of the ROE, that suggest this was NOT entirely the case.)

114 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:59:37am

re: #100 lawhawk

Because it takes time to cut orders? Because it takes time to get sniper teams in place based on where various assets are located?

Correct.
One of the things needed to best respond to these kinds of unconventional events is a significant number of very mobile strike forces with standing orders.

115 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:59:40am

re: #96 windsword

From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

It's not the President's job to micromanage. In fact, a President who interferes is making a terrible mistake.

Philips was rescued while Obama is President. That means he gets the kudos.

Take a breath and give him credit. It won't hurt that bad.

116 mfarmer1  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:59:41am

I got that e-mail last week, The second I saw "some SEAL buddies..." that was about as far as I got.

Over and over again this type of crap on all sorts of subjects gets traction this way, and maybe I'm just more of a skeptic than most, but it's pretty depressing to see so many get duped over such obvious nonsense.

This is how we ended up with Truthers, with 20%+ of us believieng we never landed on the Moon, etc. It's more scary than the current economic climate, as this "bad craziness" as Charles likes to put it is almost impossible to correct once someone is infected.

117 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:59:46am

re: #88 Buck

OK, this is NOT an anti Obama rumor. When Obama proposes a 100 million budget cut to help with his “fiscal responsibility” credentials he is doing nothing.... really nothing.

I like this quote:


Harvard University economics professor Greg Mankiw

OK, granted it amounts to about one days interest on the new budget, it's still a start. A journey of a million miles begins with one step.

118 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 8:59:59am

re: #112 WriterMom

Don't do that!

119 razorbacker  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:05am

All that I can say is that some of you folks are just itchin' to have your unicorn delivery cancelled.

You'll be sorry. Those unicorns are cute.

120 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:10am

Does no one remember the childhood tales of "Chicken Little" or "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

121 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:11am

re: #118 UFO TOFU

Too late!

122 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:30am

re: #112 WriterMom

BOO!

Where the heck have you been? I was assuming you had been swept up by the Obama Truth Squads and sent to DHS camp!

123 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:40am

re: #83 wrenchwench

Thomas Sowell had a disappointing column yesterday.

John McCain also jumped on the "bash DHS" bandwagon. The GOP evidently believes whining is a winning strategy.

124 windsword  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:49am

re: #106 MJ

Huh?
Truman didn't fly the plane that dropped the bomb on Japan. I guess by your logic he shouldn't get the credit for helping end WWII.

FDR didn't land at Normandy either.


Truman was heavily involved in deciding whether or not to drop the bomb.
And honestly, I don't think FDR deserves credit for D-Day. It was all Eisenhower's idea.

125 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:53am

re: #105 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Probably because it takes a while to get people transported from various locations around the world to a ship in the middle of the ocean.

DUH

You know, I really hope all you "true conservatives" who "support the troops" keep bashing away at this story, and that your "opinion leaders" keep forcing the Obama administration to answer these kinds of criticism.

Our enemies really do need to know how long it takes to extract SEAL teams from one location and move them to another, right?

126 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:58am

re: #75 LionOfDixon

Obama lied. People died.

If you're gonna tell a joke, set it up. You failed to provide the needed context. All you needed to do was use the quote function.
/Downding for You! (voice of SoupNazi)

127 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:00:59am

re: #96 windsword

From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

You have no clue about the CIC role. I will doubt anything you say in the future. This is the way it would have gone down with Bush in office as well. He deserves credit for authorizing the action that could have gone the other way, and that is all any president would have done. If the hostage died or Seals died, I'm certain you would have been all over the blame game.

128 jaunte  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:15am

re: #119 razorbacker

All that I can say is that some of you folks are just itchin' to have your unicorn delivery cancelled.

You'll be sorry. Those unicorns are cute.

Mine doesn't look right
Image: narwhaldm0509_800x533.jpg

129 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:21am

re: #115 Dianna

It's not the President's job to micromanage. In fact, a President who interferes is making a terrible mistake.

Philips was rescued while Obama is President. That means he gets the kudos.


Indeed. Wasn't Lincoln know to infuriate his generals with his micromanaging?

130 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:33am

re: #103 Rancher

I figured I would give these reports the 24 hour rule or whatever it's called. I had heard that the SEALs weren't around when the Captain first jumped ship but the Bainbridge could have sank the lifeboat but didn't. Someone dropped the ball there, who we may never know.

Depending on range and other factors Bainbridge may not have had a sure shot. If Philips was swimming towards the Bainbrigde he would have been in the line of fire.

Sinking the life boat would have been a 5" job, and as swimmer close would have been too risky.

131 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:35am

re: #90 Zimriel

And now, an extra special performance of Blame Canada sponsored by our very own Department of Homeland Security.

Napalitano seems very agenda driven & just as bad uninformed.

132 FightingBack  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:38am

What's sad is that a Presidential candidate can take an anti-military stance to collect votes, no matter what the reality requires. This encourages "peace at all costs" activists, and gives them what appears to be a realistic position. If we could accept the truth of the situation, that our Freedoms, and the world's, require such actions, it would improve our political process and downplay the nonsense and hype.

133 VegasRick  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:41am

re: #98 Nevergiveup

.
. She is fast becoming a national disgrace

FTFY>

134 EaterOfFood  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:53am

re: #40 Dave the.....

To echo what is said before.....I hate ODS rumors. There is a lot not to like about this guy.....poor economic knowledge, friendly to anti-American dictators, playing up anti-Bush hatred yet, but that doesn't mean to engage in falsehoods.

Remember right wing anti-Clinton stories.....he has AIDS, he has fathered a black child in Arkansas (not that there is anything wrong with that), all the murders he ordered, and Hillary's lesbian affairs.....

We shouldn't have to make stuff up to be critical of Obama. The truth provides all the evidence needed.

135 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:01:57am

re: #122 Occasional Reader

Awwww...did you miss me? I was in Israel for Passover plus a few days on each end of the holiday.

136 opilio  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:02:08am

re: #92 Spare O'Lake

Why were the snipers not put on board immediately?

The ship's transporter beams were out of alignment and Scotty wasn't available.

137 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:02:14am

re: #116 mfarmer1

I got that e-mail last week, The second I saw "some SEAL buddies..." that was about as far as I got.

Over and over again this type of crap on all sorts of subjects gets traction this way, and maybe I'm just more of a skeptic than most, but it's pretty depressing to see so many get duped over such obvious nonsense.

This is how we ended up with Truthers, with 20%+ of us believieng we never landed on the Moon, etc. It's more scary than the current economic climate, as this "bad craziness" as Charles likes to put it is almost impossible to correct once someone is infected.

Logic is out of style.

138 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:02:25am

re: #123 Charles

UGH

139 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:02:40am

re: #123 Charles

John McCain also jumped on the "bash DHS" bandwagon. The GOP evidently believes whining is a winning strategy.

ANY strategy is better then NO strategy.
/

140 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:02:58am

re: #123 Charles

John McCain also jumped on the "bash DHS" bandwagon. The GOP evidently believes whining is a winning strategy.

That never works. It failed John Kerry in 2004, and if the GOP keeps it up, it will fail in 2010 and 2012.

141 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:07am

re: #17 JammieWearingFool

Where on the web did these stories originate and who was posting them here? Related to the Somali pirates I've maybe linked a couple items just from straight news sources as events unfolded and more recently the pirate activist to be put on trial in New York, but I'm not quite familiar with these alternate reality stories.

One place (from a forwarded email I received) is this one:

Barack Obama vs. U.S. Navy SEALs Five Days of Presidential Indecision

And here's a snip, just to show you how pathetic the source is:

By John Barnhart

Now that the stand off is over I have received a very disturbing intelligence report courtesy of the Pure Pursuit Information Center by way of a former Special Operations Commander that paints a very different picture of what actually happened.

This is the tale of Barack Hussein Obama vs. The U.S. Navy SEALs according to the reports received along with my own commentary on the subject.

After a five day stand off the U.S. Navy SEALs finally action against the Somali pirates holding U.S. Captain Richard Phillips of the Maersk Alabama. Many in the liberal media gave huge praise to the President for authorizing the action and went so far as to say that in this case there was no way that conservatives could be critical of President Barack Obama because he acted swiftly and was tough, he had finally shown his metal.

"Standoff" is one word, not two, and he should have used "mettle" instead of "metal". And who the hell is the "Pure Pursuit Information Center"?

142 robdouth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:13am

Even though I was going off of no story and was just critical of how long it seemed to take, I owe a huge mea culpa to our President. He did very well by the military and it was asinine of me to assume he was wavering and undecisive in what he did. Kudos to the military commander for helping dispel this rumor and I will remember to give the benefit of the doubt to President Obama in the future. Not because of hopey changy bullshit rhetoric, but because it's the right thing to do, and I used to get pissed at the whole "not my president" rhetoric when I was at Arizona State. Also, mea culpa to Charles for any harsh rhetoric in disagreeing with his obviously prescient stance on this topic from the beginning. I guess now I'll also have to stop being a creationist/nirther/Velams Belang party member because Charles is probably right on those too. My world is falling apart. /sarc

143 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:15am

re: #135 WriterMom

Awwww...did you miss me? I was in Israel for Passover plus a few days on each end of the holiday.

HOW DO WE KNOW YOU'RE REALLY WRITERMOM?!

Nice try, DHS black ops plant! We're onto you.

144 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:20am

re: #135 WriterMom

Did you take any pictures that you could post?

145 opilio  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:27am

re: #108 DawnofTruth

I have seen both films. I can say without a shadow of doubt, what a bunch of crock. Both films basic premise is Man is bad, Man must die. I love Sci Fi shows but these were just bad

Which was a kind of a shame, because the original 1951 The Day The Earth Stood Still was awesome.

146 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:29am

re: #123 Charles

John McCain also jumped on the "bash DHS" bandwagon. The GOP evidently believes whining is a winning strategy.

To me that confirms that it's a political position, not a well-thought out concern. McCain should know better.

147 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:46am

re: #123 Charles

John McCain also jumped on the "bash DHS" bandwagon. The GOP evidently believes whining is a winning strategy.

Everytime my kids try it, they get an upside and still dont get what they were whining about

148 Buck  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:54am

I would like someone to answer me this....

Why would the Bainbridge need SEALS in order to fire on the Pirates? The Bainbridge is a US NAVY DESTROYER.

I understand that there are not normally SEALS on board, but someone there must have been able to shoot that virtually unarmed life boat and blow it up real good when the Captain jumped off....

Despite the excuses heard from 'bought and paid for" media. I think they are telling us the SEALS were not aboard, NOT that a fully armed and ready US NAVY Destroyer needs SEALS to kill 4 pirates.

149 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:03:58am

re: #143 Occasional Reader

I could tell you, but then of course-I would have to kill you.

150 robdouth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:06am

re: #120 calcajun

Does no one remember the childhood tales of "Chicken Little" or "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

Isn't that the one with the B&E, broken furniture and delicious breakfast?

151 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:09am
152 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:10am

re: #129 UFO TOFU

Indeed. Wasn't Lincoln know to infuriate his generals with his micromanaging?

Only to the extent that he kept trying, desperately, to get McClellan to fight.

153 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:11am

re: #146 wrenchwench

To me that confirms that it's a political position, not a well-thought out concern. McCain should know better.

I thought Dr Sowell should have known better. I was disappointed reading that column too.

154 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:20am
155 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:32am

re: #124 windsword

Truman was heavily involved in deciding whether or not to drop the bomb.
And honestly, I don't think FDR deserves credit for D-Day. It was all Eisenhower's idea.

1) Between FDR and Eisenhower there was someone named Marshall and a
whole host of experts on various aspects of Overlord. Eisenhower was a
Politician more than a tactician. Not taking anything away from him, we
needed him for that.
2) All Truman did was basically decide to drop or not to drop. Not the operational
details of when or how.

156 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:48am

re: #144 UFO TOFU

Hmmm. Not really. Mostly of family and friends-some of places we visited which are generic.

157 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:50am

re: #130 jcm

Depending on range and other factors Bainbridge may not have had a sure shot. If Philips was swimming towards the Bainbrigde he would have been in the line of fire.

Sinking the life boat would have been a 5" job, and as swimmer close would have been too risky.

True, fact is we don't know the facts. It just galls me that while we had assets on hand we couldn't prevent the Captain from being hauled back to captivity.

158 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:04:56am

There's a story on HotAir this morning that parts of a memo written by Dennis Blair (the Director of National Intelligence), asserting that so-called "torture" techniques yielded useful information, were redacted by the White House before releasing the memo to the media.

Barack Obama’s top man in the intelligence community sent the President a memo defending the use of enhanced interrogation techniques, which the White House edited before releasing to the press de-emphasizing that defense.

When they do things like this, they make it pretty hard to trust what they say.

159 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:05:20am

re: #124 windsword

Truman was heavily involved in deciding whether or not to drop the bomb.
And honestly, I don't think FDR deserves credit for D-Day. It was all Eisenhower's idea.

It may be Ike's idea, but FDR had to approve it. However, if you really want to give credit for D-Day even making it to the fore, give it to Winston Churchill. Churchill pushed and prodded at FDR for a couple of years to make an invasion of France a reality.

160 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:06:08am

re: #145 opilio

Which was a kind of a shame, because the original 1951 The Day The Earth Stood Still was awesome.

As I've said before: I still think Klaatu (even from the original) was an asshole. When he gives his pompous speech at the end of the movie, I keep shouting at the screen "WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOOT HIM AGAIN?!".

161 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:06:21am

I did see a bunch of movies on the plane rides. Daniel Craig in Quantum of Solace...yummmy and even though "Australia" was a schmaltzy dud, Hugh Jackman is totally hot.

162 Kragar  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:06:53am

re: #148 Buck

I would like someone to answer me this....

Why would the Bainbridge need SEALS in order to fire on the Pirates? The Bainbridge is a US NAVY DESTROYER.

I understand that there are not normally SEALS on board, but someone there must have been able to shoot that virtually unarmed life boat and blow it up real good when the Captain jumped off....

Despite the excuses heard from 'bought and paid for" media. I think they are telling us the SEALS were not aboard, NOT that a fully armed and ready US NAVY Destroyer needs SEALS to kill 4 pirates.

Anything which would "blow it up real good" would have killed the Captain while he was still in the water.

163 robdouth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:12am

re: #161 WriterMom

I did see a bunch of movies on the plane rides. Daniel Craig in Quantum of Solace...yummmy and even though "Australia" was a schmaltzy dud, Hugh Jackman is totally hot.

"Scmaltzy Duds" sounds like a great name for a Men's high fashion shop.

164 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:35am

re: #141 Ward Cleaver

Google shows a page, but...it won't connect.

I just tried Guidestar, too. They're not a 501(c)(3).

165 Sharmuta  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:35am

It seems fact checking was all the rage when we could use it against the left, but when it comes to fact checking our sources, our side, fact checking is just not so cool anymore.

166 LionOfDixon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:43am

re: #139 unrealizedviewpoint

It seems to be a strategy that got Obama elected.

167 Russkilitlover  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:45am

re: #33 Dianna

Absolutely.

I'm glad that Captain Philips is safe. I don't really care about much else.

Any President, whether complete left-tard or right-tard would act aggressively in such a hostage situation. Well....Carter didn't, but that was on a larger scale, and happened within a country, not on an American vessel in the middle of the ocean.

I'd rather find out more about the suicide of the CFO of Freddie Mac, I'd like to hear more from Obama about why he sat so quietly and politely while Ortega railed against America. There are a host of real issues that are flying past everyone who remain focused on mere rumors.

168 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:50am

re: #159 Honorary Yooper

It may be Ike's idea, but FDR had to approve it. However, if you really want to give credit for D-Day even making it to the fore, give it to Winston Churchill. Churchill pushed and prodded at FDR for a couple of years to make an invasion of France a reality.

Not really. Churchill was deathly afraid of the anticipated casualties from an invasion of France. Roosevelt was pushing or it and Winston was delaying. Churchill would much rather have invaded Europe thru Italy and the Balkans.

169 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:52am

re: #141 Ward Cleaver

It appears to be a website now "dissappeared" probably cooked up just for the hit piece. Here's a snip of what's left in google cache, I wouldnt' recommend that anyone fill out the form there if you catch my drift...

As a Traumatic Stress and Emergency Resource Specialist, Ms. Wiley provides informational services to members of the Emergency Services and Management Community, with the purpose of offering relevant and timely information on emergency, terrorism and critical incidence stress management (CISM) issues.

170 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:07:54am

re: #78 Occasional Reader

Huxley postuled

That typo is a festering postule on this thread.

postulated...

171 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:08:10am

re: #148 Buck

I would like someone to answer me this....

Why would the Bainbridge need SEALS in order to fire on the Pirates? The Bainbridge is a US NAVY DESTROYER.

I understand that there are not normally SEALS on board, but someone there must have been able to shoot that virtually unarmed life boat and blow it up real good when the Captain jumped off....

Despite the excuses heard from 'bought and paid for" media. I think they are telling us the SEALS were not aboard, NOT that a fully armed and ready US NAVY Destroyer needs SEALS to kill 4 pirates.

If you want to kill the pirates and extract the hostage a Standard Block IV, a 5" or even the CIWS are gonna' get you little pieces of pirate and hostage floating amid pieces of lifeboat.

No disrespect to the sailors, but a sniper, let alone 4 is not among the normal complement on a Destroyer.

172 opinionated  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:08:18am

I dislike Obama, believe he is bad for the country, and wish he wasn't President.

I believe many, if not most, here share my view.

I insist my view is based on intellectual honestly based on Obama's views and what I have seen so far of his Presidency.

I won't bend over and fake trying to prove I have an open mind and I can praise the man. I'll praise him when I believe he deserves particular praise.

In the pirates incident, Obama did the very minimal any President would do. Or any small town sheriff in a hostage situation.

I don't give him any particular credit for doing his job by allowing the military to do theirs. Not allowing the military to do what was necessary would have been unimaginable.

But after those three shots, and the rescue, he stopped. The pirates are still operating.

He has acted in a manner that IMO stops well short of deserving any praise- yet. Maybe the continuning piracy will force his hand.

173 yma o hyd  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:08:37am

re: #151 taxfreekiller


If any Seal Team Lead, aka 1-0 is on a mission and needs to make a command decision, it will happen. This is known.

Yep, same as for the SAS.

People with ODS, of course, prefer a daily dose of irrational, fabricated outrage ...

174 Land Shark  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:08:47am

re: #25 Summer

I think the jury is still out. Allowing the Seals to rescue Capt. Phillips and not attending the Turban, er, I mean Durban II "We hate Israel" hate fest are two signs he may not be the wimp we right wing conservatives thought he was. But then slashing the military budget isn't a good sign in these times. And going around apologizing for and trashing our nation's history, on foreign soil, no less, is extremely disturbing as well as un-precedented for a POTUS.

175 jaunte  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:08:48am

re: #165 Sharmuta

It seems fact checking was all the rage when we could use it against the left, but when it comes to fact checking our sources, our side, fact checking is just not so cool anymore.

Hey, that two-edged sword is sharp. It's not fair!

176 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:09:18am

re: #148 Buck

I would like someone to answer me this....

Why would the Bainbridge need SEALS in order to fire on the Pirates? The Bainbridge is a US NAVY DESTROYER.

I understand that there are not normally SEALS on board, but someone there must have been able to shoot that virtually unarmed life boat and blow it up real good when the Captain jumped off....

Despite the excuses heard from 'bought and paid for" media. I think they are telling us the SEALS were not aboard, NOT that a fully armed and ready US NAVY Destroyer needs SEALS to kill 4 pirates.

Yes; I'd expect at least a few Marines on any decent sized Navy surface ship.

177 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:09:36am

re: #157 Rancher

True, fact is we don't know the facts. It just galls me that while we had assets on hand we couldn't prevent the Captain from being hauled back to captivity.

No argument with that. I said as much at the time.

178 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:09:38am

I believe that the first U.S Naval ship to arrive was the Bainbridge, but I may be wrong.
I am wondering if the ship had a compliment of Marines aboard & if so, were they deployed as sharpshooters, while waiting for the Seals?
Every Marine, even cooks are qualified marksmen.

179 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:09:40am

re: #148 Buck

I understand that there are not normally SEALS on board, but someone there must have been able to shoot that virtually unarmed life boat and blow it up real good when the Captain jumped off....

The naval gunfire that would have been used for that may likely have put Phillips at great risk, even if he was in the water. Precision shooting capacity was likely needed.

180 robdouth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:09:46am

re: #160 Occasional Reader

As I've said before: I still think Klaatu (even from the original) was an asshole. When he gives his pompous speech at the end of the movie, I keep shouting at the screen "WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE SHOOT HIM AGAIN?!".

I agree wholeheartedly with you. He knew that Earth beings were lower in evolution and intelligence and he still browbeats the hell out of them like a liberal college professor. If I had been in the crowd, I'd tell him to go to hell, we'll figure it out on our own, we don't need you and your S&M robot. I guess Klaatu was hoping for a moment like the South Park episode about global warming where everyone is running around yelling "We didn't listen!" and panicking.

181 MJ  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:09:57am

re: #124 windsword

Truman was heavily involved in deciding whether or not to drop the bomb.
And honestly, I don't think FDR deserves credit for D-Day. It was all Eisenhower's idea.

Don't get me wrong, but I think you really don't understand the concept of Commander-in-Chief. We elect political leaders in this country who have civilian control over the military...not the other way around.

182 UFO TOFU  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:10:15am

re: #170 Occasional Reader

I was going to note that, somehow working in the IR word, but I resisted...

183 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:10:18am

re: #166 LionOfDixon

It seems to be a strategy that got Obama elected.

Obama didn't whine. He promised HopeNchange.

184 Dianna  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:10:24am

re: #162 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Anything which would "blow it up real good" would have killed the Captain while he was still in the water.

Never be near an explosion in water. Bad, bad thing.

185 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:11:05am

re: #161 WriterMom

Daniel Craig in Quantum of Solace.

I was pretty disappointed with that movie. Casino Royale was just so damn good... I thought Quantum really lost the momentum.

186 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:11:14am

re: #178 opnion

I believe that the first U.S Naval ship to arrive was the Bainbridge, but I may be wrong.
I am wondering if the ship had a compliment of Marines aboard & if so, were they deployed as sharpshooters, while waiting for the Seals?
Every Marine, even cooks are qualified marksmen.

Qualified doesn't mean much. I qualified.

187 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:12:02am

The captain was taken hostage on the 8th.
The USS Bainbridge arrived on the 9th, and it was then that Capt. Phillips jumped overboard and was recaptured.
So it looks like there MIGHT have been enough time (one day) and the means (USS Bainbridge) to place the snipers before the abortive escape attempt.
I don't know.

188 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:12:19am

re: #165 Sharmuta

It seems fact checking was all the rage when we could use it against the left, but when it comes to fact checking our sources, our side, fact checking is just not so cool anymore.

That's a good point, but here's an honest question: How do you "fact check", when "facts" are morphing by the minute? I'm not talking about blog chatter - I'm talking about the media we're all supposed to trust to bring us an accurate story? And how do you "fact check" a dishonest media?

I don't intend this as a challenge to you personally. I just really want to know how we find out the truth in these situations.

189 mfarmer1  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:12:37am

test re: #137 Sharmuta

No kidding. I do my best when I get these idiotic emails that have been forwarded with a gazillion email addresses attached to inform the sender to take another look. Snopes.com is my friend. Alas I still seem to get these emails no matter how many times I link to Snopes debunking the obvious.

I've been getting that idiotic free money from Microsoft email for over ten years now. How can that thing still be circulating?

Now, the 419 Nigerian scammers...they can be fun. One of my favorite sites is scamorama.com. These guys take on the scammers and scam them right back. Don't know where they get the time, but funny as heck. One of my favorites is this one: [Link: www.scamorama.com...]

190 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:13:02am

re: #185 Occasional Reader

I agree, the movie really sucked. But Daniel Craig is gorgeous. They had Defiance also, and picturing him as a hunky Jewish warrior battling Nazis! Drool cup, please.

191 boatguyjim  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:13:32am

re: #178 opnion
Marines are not stationed onboard small boys (FFGs, DDGs) they are on large deck ships (Carriers) for security and of course they can deploy on AMPHIBs

192 Occasional Reader  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:14:04am

re: #190 WriterMom

They had Defiance

That one, I still want to see.

193 SixDegrees  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:15:02am

re: #22 thatemailname

I got that story in an email from a fellow who's been emailing like crazy ever since he got a hold of a tea party email list. I responded and asked, do you have a source for this story that I can link to? His answer was no, he didn't, it was sent to him by an "old military friend". Uhh, yeah.

At least two who posted the story here made no mention of copying it from another source; they both claimed that they had gotten it directly from "personal" sources in the Navy. Never mind that the wording in both posts was mostly identical, that the sources had to remain anonymous, or that the story itself was obviously manufactured.

It's one thing to paste a news story or circulating email here; a lot of people do that, and it's fine for information purposes. But to deliberately lie and claim that this story came to them first hand is really scraping bottom.

194 opnion  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:15:14am

re: #186 Nevergiveup

Qualified doesn't mean much. I qualified.

So did I & it does mean something. If you are a Marine, you casn shoot.
You may not be sniper good but you are a good shot.
BTW, thank's for your service.

195 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:15:18am

re: #83 wrenchwench

Thomas Sowell had a disappointing column yesterday.

Yeah. I can hear Sharmuta's cursing from here... or I could if I wasn't cursing so loud myself.

Sowell should have read LGF first. I'd posted a few comments on the administration's handling of this, which after some initial flailing came to a critique which stayed out of the paranoia. Sowell's baiting the mob.

Edmund Burke had moments of rantability too...

196 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:16:21am

re: #192 Occasional Reader

ROFL. You sound sooooo Jewish in that post.

"That one, I want to see."

197 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:17:28am

Husband said it was excellent. Actually, on Israel TV they ran a documentary about the Bielski family and 3 of their grandchildren have made aliyah to Israel and the two boys are in elite military units in the IDF now. I was total waterworks.

198 jcm  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:17:33am

re: #178 opnion

I believe that the first U.S Naval ship to arrive was the Bainbridge, but I may be wrong.
I am wondering if the ship had a compliment of Marines aboard & if so, were they deployed as sharpshooters, while waiting for the Seals?
Every Marine, even cooks are qualified marksmen.

World of difference between someone who qualed even with top scores and a sniper.

199 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:19:39am

re: #121 WriterMom

YOU! Were you been? Howzit going? I was beginning to imagine your employer sent you off to a re-education camp...

200 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:19:51am

re: #189 mfarmer1

test

No kidding. I do my best when I get these idiotic emails that have been forwarded with a gazillion email addresses attached to inform the sender to take another look. Snopes.com is my friend. Alas I still seem to get these emails no matter how many times I link to Snopes debunking the obvious.

I've been getting that idiotic free money from Microsoft email for over ten years now. How can that thing still be circulating?

What I've done is harvest every name on the email chain up to the person who sent me the mail, and send them back a mail flaming the lot as fools (I used to use the word "idiot" but since learning more of that word's history, I'm trying not to). The person who sent me the mail gets a more personal and polite mail explaining why she (it's usually "she") shouldn't send them and, in general, should never send me chain letters of any sort if they don't want to be blocked.

201 tracon  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:20:50am

re: #148 Buck

If you hit that small of a boat with the deck gun not much would be left over including our Captain. It was a rescue operation not a paint the walls operation.

202 debutaunt  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:20:55am

re: #59 Occasional Reader

Cute. But I'm referring to an NY Times story that mentioned something about two requests to the White House to allow action being denied... words to that effect. I'd have to look for it.

The Jayson Blair article?

203 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:21:00am

re: #135 WriterMom

Awwww...did you miss me? I was in Israel for Passover plus a few days on each end of the holiday.

Yes, we missed you. I hope you had a great time in Israel seeing family and friends.

204 WriterMom  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:21:11am

re: #199 Kenneth

I be with the outlaws in the Holy Land, sir.

205 Gavriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:22:14am

re: #194 opnion

So did I & it does mean something. If you are a Marine, you casn shoot.
You may not be sniper good but you are a good shot.
BTW, thank's for your service.

There are levels of "good shot". The requirement is one shot instant incapacitation from one moving boat to another moving boat, no warm up, on the first try. That's sniper good and it is a somewhat rare talent.

206 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:22:41am

re: #186 Nevergiveup

Qualified doesn't mean much. I qualified.

My husband got the highest rating last time he went in to qualify for his yearly shooting thing (expert badge or something? "better to be lucky than good" was his response). He's an Air Force pilot, and a wonderful man, but Captain Phillips wouldn't have wanted him taking those shots.

207 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:22:51am

re: #190 WriterMom

I agree, the movie really sucked. But Daniel Craig is gorgeous. They had Defiance also, and picturing him as a hunky Jewish warrior battling Nazis! Drool cup, please.

You'll have to stand in line, my wife has got designs on Daniel Craig.

208 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:23:10am

re: #188 capitalist piglet

That's a good point, but here's an honest question: How do you "fact check", when "facts" are morphing by the minute? I'm not talking about blog chatter - I'm talking about the media we're all supposed to trust to bring us an accurate story? And how do you "fact check" a dishonest media?

I don't intend this as a challenge to you personally. I just really want to know how we find out the truth in these situations.

1. 24 hour rule.
2. Stay off the booze during that period. Make sure you're not tired. Get some coffee (not too much).
3. Start with the original research through to most likely primary source. Any red flags, keep at it.
4. If debunked, publish your findings.
5. Open up that booze you'd been saving. You've earned it!

If it happens to look true, then post that instead and see if any other posters contradict it...

209 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:23:17am

re: #96 windsword

From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

I've read your other posts in this thread and it sounds as though you believe that BHO deserves no credit for the success but had it ended in tragedy, he would have gotten the blame.

It is very simple; it was a successful operation; it happened on his watch; he was briefed and allowed the operation to proceed, investing the local commanders with the appropriate discretion to act and the hostage was rescued. It happened on his watch--he gets the credit. It falls apart-he gets the blame. That's what it means to be CIC.

210 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:23:29am

re: #204 WriterMom

Bless you.

211 Nevergiveup  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:24:01am

re: #206 funky chicken

My husband got the highest rating last time he went in to qualify for his yearly shooting thing (expert badge or something? "better to be lucky than good" was his response). He's an Air Force pilot, and a wonderful man, but Captain Phillips wouldn't have wanted him taking those shots.

I had not shot since I was 9. 54 now and I qualified as a Sharpshooter. I was happy. But your 100% right.

212 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:24:44am

re: #197 WriterMom

Husband said it was excellent. Actually, on Israel TV they ran a documentary about the Bielski family and 3 of their grandchildren have made aliyah to Israel and the two boys are in elite military units in the IDF now. I was total waterworks.

I have the book "Defiance: The Bielski Partisans" on my Kindle. You've inspired me to move it to the top of my reading list. What an awesome story!

213 Gavriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:25:45am

re: #172 opinionated

I dislike Obama, believe he is bad for the country, and wish he wasn't President.

I believe many, if not most, here share my view.

I insist my view is based on intellectual honestly based on Obama's views and what I have seen so far of his Presidency.

I won't bend over and fake trying to prove I have an open mind and I can praise the man. I'll praise him when I believe he deserves particular praise.

In the pirates incident, Obama did the very minimal any President would do. Or any small town sheriff in a hostage situation.

I don't give him any particular credit for doing his job by allowing the military to do theirs. Not allowing the military to do what was necessary would have been unimaginable.

But after those three shots, and the rescue, he stopped. The pirates are still operating.

He has acted in a manner that IMO stops well short of deserving any praise- yet. Maybe the continuning piracy will force his hand.

Wonderfully put. We shouldn't fall for deranged lies, but "credit due"? I don't think so.

214 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:26:07am

re: #207 Kenneth

Bond logic.

Sean Bean killed Daniel Craig in "Sharpe"
Pierce Brosnan killed Sean Bean in "Goldeneye"
Pierce Brosnan can kill Daniel Craig.//

215 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:26:51am
216 capitalist piglet  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:28:23am

re: #208 Zimriel

Thank you for answering... but now I have more questions (and for the record, I don't imbibe). : )

I guess I'll leave it alone for now.

217 jwb7605  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:30:25am

re: #141 Ward Cleaver

"Standoff" is one word, not two, and he should have used "mettle" instead of "metal". And who the hell is the "Pure Pursuit Information Center"?

It's an extremely patriotic and reputable organization.
You can tell by the title.
//

218 Dreader1962  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:31:20am

I have been holding my tongue on this one, but I'm fed up - everything I've read about this operation indicates that the White House had the exact level of involvement needed to effectively carry out this action. Any commander on the scene would not have given the go-ahead for a takedown because the M.O. of these pirates was not to kill their hostage. There was a stand-off, but I didn't get the idea that his life was in immediate danger. When the action was approved, there was an obvious delay while the commanders on the scene assessed the best time to execute. When there was an interval beyond a few hours, it's not surprising that the commander would verify that the action was still a go.

I am on the outside on this one (as are all of the know-it-all commentators that are bashing Obama on this), but it has all of the earmarks of an effective, successful use of military force fully supported by the White House.

It seems that we have a large number of people who go out of their way to cast everything Obama does as 'evil' or 'incompetent'. This makes them no different that the sufferers of BDS in years past.

We need intelligent criticism, not rumors and conspiracy theories.

219 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:32:06am

By all means, though, let's continue to display our principled opposition by never forgetting to type the President's name with a zero in place of the O.

It's clever, it's snarky, and people didn't get it the first googolplex times it was used.

I voted for Bush in 2004. I also bashed him plenty when he was wrong. But I don't think I ever stooped to mocking his name, even if it is an anagram for Buggers Hoe.

220 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:32:11am

re: #216 capitalist piglet

Thank you for answering... but now I have more questions (and for the record, I don't imbibe). : )

I guess I'll leave it alone for now.

Oh I didn't mean to imply you did! But I know some lizards do (I've been known to); and that's why we have the Iron Fist Rule.

I've found that Posting While Sleep Deprived and Posting While Sick yields results even more self-disgracing than Posting While Intoxicated...

221 jvic  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:32:26am

re: #40 Dave the.....

Remember right wing anti-Clinton stories.....he has AIDS, he has fathered a black child in Arkansas (not that there is anything wrong with that), all the murders he ordered, and Hillary's lesbian affairs.....

In fact the deranged opposition to Clinton was my first uneasiness with the right as a governing majority. The right has squandered a lot of political capital with that kind of behavior. When they were on top, they dug themselves into a hole--and many of them continue to dig.

re: #56 yma o hyd

What needs to be learned from this and all the other ODS 'news' is that they not only play into the hands of the government crowd - they take up time because one's got to bash them into the ground, and make all who use them look like idiots.

re: #18 Land Shark

Exactly. I'm as opposed to Obama as anybody is, but if you buy into every rumor you just wind up looking like a total fool. Sadly, too many Conservatives are so desperate right now they'll believe anything.

Exactly. If you look like a chump on the penny-ante stuff (no disrespect meant to Captain Phillips), you have no credibility left to contest the historic issues.

The looney left has the MSM to cover up their insanity; the right doesn't have that advantage. Quite the contrary.

222 Gavriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:32:34am

re: #209 calcajun

I've read your other posts in this thread and it sounds as though you believe that BHO deserves no credit for the success but had it ended in tragedy, he would have gotten the blame.

It is very simple; it was a successful operation; it happened on his watch; he was briefed and allowed the operation to proceed, investing the local commanders with the appropriate discretion to act and the hostage was rescued. It happened on his watch--he gets the credit. It falls apart-he gets the blame. That's what it means to be CIC.

opinionated's #172 is his only post on this thread (unless they were deleted, or he has a sock-pupet). Obama has a very high possition with very high expectations. What he did was barely meeting expectations. No bonus for that level of work. Yes, he was better then Carter, but that was way below expectations and deserved censure.

223 ConservatismNow!  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:36:41am

re: #198 jcm

World of difference between someone who qualed even with top scores and a sniper.

Primary difference is a scope. :D

224 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:37:23am

re: #221 jvic

excellent post

225 Dreader1962  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:39:13am

re: #215 Iron Fist

Pakistan is going be a FAR tougher test than this rescue; let's observe what he does objectively. It's not like Bush had the correct policy in re: Pakistan because he just supported an appeasement government.

226 Lee Coller  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:41:37am

re: #165 Sharmuta

It seems fact checking was all the rage when we could use it against the left, but when it comes to fact checking our sources, our side, fact checking is just not so cool anymore.

Not just fact checking, simply using our brains seems to have gone on the wayside.

227 jvic  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:41:49am

re: #224 funky chicken

excellent post

Thanks!...& thanks to the posters I quoted. And to those whose similar comments leaked out of my short-term memory.

228 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:47:53am

re: #222 Gavriel

I was responding to windsword.
You miss the point. If a successful operation happens on the CiC's watch--he gets the credit. QED.

229 LGoPs  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:52:44am

re: #96 windsword

From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

The President's job is to signal red light or green light. Once he approves an operation to go forward it is the job of the professionals on the ground to execute. Regardless of the outcome the CinC gets the credit or the blame. This operation was successful, thus president Obama gets the credit.
President's that go beyond this basic red light/green light step are unwise and foolish as evidenced by Jimmy Carter's micro-managerial meddling in the details of the Iranian hostage rescue attempt, the debacle known as Desert One, back in 1979. Carter's is an example of exactly what not to do. Obama did not repeat his mistake and deserves acknowledgement for that.
There's plenty of other, legitimate reasons to question Obama's decision's on. This is not one of them.

230 Gavriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:55:29am

re: #209 calcajun
re: #222 Gavriel

opinionated's #172 is his only post on this thread ...

Sorry calcajun, I see now you were replying to windsword, not opinionated.

231 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:58:13am

Objectivity matters.

232 anubis_soundwave  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:59:18am

re: #229 LGoPs

The President's job is to signal red light or green light. Once he approves an operation to go forward it is the job of the professionals on the ground to execute. Regardless of the outcome the CinC gets the credit or the blame. This operation was successful, thus president Obama gets the credit.
President's that go beyond this basic red light/green light step are unwise and foolish as evidenced by Jimmy Carter's micro-managerial meddling in the details of the Iranian hostage rescue attempt, the debacle known as Desert One, back in 1979. Carter's is an example of exactly what not to do. Obama did not repeat his mistake and deserves acknowledgement for that.
There's plenty of other, legitimate reasons to question Obama's decision's on. This is not one of them.

Precisely. Politicians micromanaging the military--along with an anti-war media--is what lost us the Vietnam War 40+ years ago. I am grateful that Carter and Johnson get to keep their unassailed records as feckless micromanagers--for the sake of the country.

233 Gavriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 9:59:44am

re: #228 calcajun

I was responding to windsword.
You miss the point. If a successful operation happens on the CiC's watch--he gets the credit. QED.

Then should I blame him for the policies that lead up to the pirate attack on the boat? It happend on his watch...

234 Dreader1962  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:05:03am

re: #96 windsword

From the horse's mouth you get it. Obama didn't try to manage the rescue effort. In fact, HE DID NOTHING that influenced the actions of the military. Therefore, Obama does not deserve credit for the rescue effort's success, as Charles claimed a few days ago.

This from someone who knows - how? News reports?

If Obama was publicly going around bragging about his role in directly approving the action, we would have the same collection of dolts screaming about how he was trying to steal credit from the SEALs who pulled the triggers.

I was 'inside' for quite a few direct action operations that the then-president had an expressed involvement in - spanning Bush-Clinton-Bush; I retired in 2002 . Some of them were during the Clinton years. While I disagreed with many of Clinton's foreign policy decisions (such as his hasty retreat from Somalia after a successful mission that resulted in a few casualties) and was disgusted by his personal conduct, I never got the idea that direct White House interference screwed up any of these actions. As a matter of fact, I know of an action that had to be canceled because the people on the scene f*ed up; the Clinton White House wisely agreed to pull the plug on it before it became a debacle.

'nuff said - probably too much, and I can't amplify on this. I'm not convinced by the twits on here that have no experience or knowledge of these types of actions.

235 soxfan4life  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:08:09am

re: #233 Gavriel

Then should I blame him for the policies that lead up to the pirate attack on the boat? It happend on his watch...


Depending upon what happens to the surviving pirate in court will be telling as to what to expect from any other pirate attacks over the next 4 years. Had they cut off his head to display coming into port or hanged him for his crimes there would have surely been a large group of these pirates who would sit up and take notice and thought twice about attacking an American flagged ship, if he goes into court and gets his judicial slap on the wrist one would have to expect more attacks of a brazen nature.

236 BigAl  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:10:50am

I agree with Charles here. The left-wing blogosphere and media were never so kind to GWB and still are not. So be it. There's a good chance that Obama and his government will be replaced in 2012.

The liberal media will have a chance to make amends at that time.

BTW, Mark Levin's best-selling book 'Liberty and Tyranny', is a good starting point for conservative political candidates.

237 solicitr  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:11:06am

Sorry, Charles, what stinks is Obama Spin Mark I and now Obama Spin Mark II. The original story never hung together, and now Jones is trying to patch up the more transparent holes. The WH "issued orders" to follow the standing orders? TWICE?

The essence of the "rumor" stands: Obama (eventually) sent the SEALs, but effectively forbade them to act. The OSC gets all the credit, even though he risked his career doing so since the Commander-in-Training-Pants wanted "peaceful solution."

So- Did Obambi give the Navy a direct order to blow the pirate scum to hell? NO. In fact the exact opposite: he refused to order it. Nobody can deny that. He refused to give that order. O'spin machine myth BUSTED.

238 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:17:09am

re: #237 solicitr

When last seen in our comments, you were defending Pamela Geller and attempting to spread lies about the organizers of the BNP march I pointed out:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

239 Rancher  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:18:24am

re: #186 Nevergiveup

Qualified doesn't mean much. I qualified.

I shot expert but to hit a bobbing target from a bobbing platform is way beyond me. Nevertheless just laying down covering fire while the Captain swam away might have been enough. Its just too hard to second guess these things without knowing all the facts though.

240 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:19:36am

re: #233 Gavriel

No-only those things over which he has any control. Arming merchantmen is not within his control--that is usually the call of the countries where the ship delivers cargo--they will not allow you to bring guns of any kind into the country. It's more international law than anything else.

241 NYCHardhat  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:22:04am

Save a captain...All the credit in the world.
Liberate 25 million people...evil war monger.

Just pointing out the inconsistencies of the world.

I won't jump on the bandwagon and bash Obama...There is too much else to target. But I said it before and I'll say it again. The bar has been lowered.

242 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:25:10am

My first experience with extremism was at home. I grew up wondering who this bastard Reagan was, he seemed to come up at every family gathering. My grandmother was still railing about him till her death a few years ago.

Back to my late teens: got worse once I started discussing issues. They asked me 'where I got those ideas and information' and once they found I listened to talk radio, Rush was lambasted regularly as well as my employer. This was in the late 80's/early 90's. My family doesn't understand that they taught me a lot, just not what they wanted to teach me. The conversation ended with me stating "If I can't think for myself, then you're just upset that you failed to brainwash me before my boss or Rush did." My mom didn't have a reply of any worth to that.

During the Clinton years, I was opposite him but he had his rabid detractors. I don't find him that great a leader or man, but he was a shrewd politician. However, there was some CDS going on and I still see it flare up from time to time.

W's tenure took Derangement Syndrome to a whole new level. We don't need to explore the absolute craziness of it all.

Now with O, who like Clinton I am in disagreement with on many issues but can give some respect, the Derangement Syndrome seems to be somewhere between the level of Clinton and W. I don't care for any of it.

What is shocking this time is the blind faith in O. I can offer some valid ridicule for those people, however I can't fall into the craven dogma of calling them every evil and pejorative term in the book.

No (heart) for extremism.

243 solicitr  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:35:01am

Gosh, Charles, that's almost an ad hominem.

I repeat: Obama did not order the pirates killed; he ordered the contrary. The "imminent danger" rule is part of the Standing Orders which long, long predates the Obama Admin. Commander Castellano took the initiative, notwithstanding Obama's desire for a "peaceful resolution." End of story.

Obama FAILED to order the Navy to engage and destroy. That to my mind is a FAILURE of leadership.

(BTW, why "lies?" What I wrote was
"Charles, it might not be a bad idea to say the same things with less--- er, heated rhetoric,"
and then pointed out, accurately to the best of my knowledge, that the Luton organizers told the BNP to stay away. I've still seen no affirmative evidence that the BNP or NF had anything to do with it.

Sheesh. It doesn't have to be so personal.)

244 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:35:51am

from the article
"President Obama dispatched two separate teams of Navy commandos to carry out last week’s rescue of a merchant ship captain held hostage by Somali pirates but left the operational details and rules of engagement to military commanders, National Security Adviser James. L. Jones said Tuesday."


so we're now believe the 0bama administration ?

reality check on all aisles !

/not to say I don't believe it
but come on, this is coming from team "Anti-America"
fresh from an around the world apology orgy

245 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:35:56am
Dozens of people posted this false rumor at LGF, in our comments and in spinoff links, and dozens of blogs reported it uncritically—because it played into what they wanted to believe about Barack Obama, that he deserved no credit for the rescue operation in Somalia.

Well, no, it isn't because people want to believe a particular narrative, it is because the narrative put forth doesn't make any sense. If the story of a 36 hour delay are false, and if James. L. Jones is saying that it is than it is probably so, it still doesn't explain why the sailors and marines who were on scene didn't return fire on the lifeboat after Captain Phillips had jumped off.

It would be interesting to see when exactly in this time line Obama ordered the seals in, because they are not claiming control/responsibility for the situation until almost a day after the Navy arrived:

"Pentagon officials said the owners of the merchant ship Maersk Alabama controlled the scene in the early hours after the hostage-taking on April 8. As soon as the Pentagon took charge on April 10 with its warship the USS Bainbridge on the scene, Mr. Obama first authorized a few Navy SEALs from a base in Africa to deploy to the Bainbridge and take necessary action."


OK, Bainbridge was on scene on 9 April, 1am... for the first day Bainbridge was on station it was somehow not in "control of the scene"? Remember that Maersk Alabama got the hell out of there ASAP so that would leave the lifeboat "in control". Didn't someone ask where the buck stops? Even if he ordered the seal team in immediately after "the Pentagon took charge" isn't that already a day/day and a half delay?

Additionally, the narrative of an obstructing, naive incompetent response from the C&C is congruent with his philosophy and actions regarding the use of military force in defense of American life. Obama sees our Armed Forces role as law enforcement (even if especially if it is "international law".) The closing of Guantanamo Bay prison, briefing potential terrorists on what they can expect by releasing the details of "harsh interrogation", the creeping sell out of our allies in the middle east because our historic actions haven't been taken with "international consensus". "Restricting the use of lethal force until the captains life was in "imminent danger" is entirely plausible, indeed probable with someone who has decided that the best way to handle scumbags like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is to allow them to enjoy the Constitutional protections of the Bill of Rights. The article states: "the commander had authority to take action at all times because Mr. Phillips was being held at gunpoint, but that he was balancing his authority with Washington's request to seek a peaceful outcome" (Meanwhile we have a brave man spending days in a lifeboat with creeps who have nothing to lose.)

Yet we are to give Obama a hearty pat on the back for this...
So have at it, ding me down like Avanti reading from Mao's little red book or space Jesus talking about Palin speaking in tongues... Some of what I have heard and posted may be wrong but at best he gave the Sailors what they asked for and in the context of the damage he has done to our efforts to defend ourselves Boxy still isn't impressed.

246 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:38:08am

re: #243 solicitr

Gosh, Charles, that's almost an ad hominem.

I repeat: Obama did not order the pirates killed; he ordered the contrary. The "imminent danger" rule is part of the Standing Orders which long, long predates the Obama Admin. Commander Castellano took the initiative, notwithstanding Obama's desire for a "peaceful resolution." End of story.

Obama FAILED to order the Navy to engage and destroy. That to my mind is a FAILURE of leadership.

(BTW, why "lies?" What I wrote was
"Charles, it might not be a bad idea to say the same things with less--- er, heated rhetoric,"
and then pointed out, accurately to the best of my knowledge, that the Luton organizers told the BNP to stay away. I've still seen no affirmative evidence that the BNP or NF had anything to do with it.

Yes, you have. I posted the link where you could easily find the "affirmative evidence" you're denying exists.

Have you ever asked Geller to use "less heated rhetoric," by the way?

And meanwhile, you just keep repeating debunked lies about the Somalia rescue operation.

247 Lee Coller  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #243 solicitr

Gosh, Charles, that's almost an ad hominem.

I repeat: Obama did not order the pirates killed; he ordered the contrary. The "imminent danger" rule is part of the Standing Orders which long, long predates the Obama Admin. Commander Castellano took the initiative, notwithstanding Obama's desire for a "peaceful resolution." End of story.

Obama FAILED to order the Navy to engage and destroy. That to my mind is a FAILURE of leadership.

(BTW, why "lies?" What I wrote was
"Charles, it might not be a bad idea to say the same things with less--- er, heated rhetoric,"
and then pointed out, accurately to the best of my knowledge, that the Luton organizers told the BNP to stay away. I've still seen no affirmative evidence that the BNP or NF had anything to do with it.

Sheesh. It doesn't have to be so personal.)

I get it, the rumor if true reflects badly on Obama, therefore it must be true.

No different than the left.

248 Lee Coller  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:43:47am

re: #244 Adrenalyn

from the article
"President Obama dispatched two separate teams of Navy commandos to carry out last week’s rescue of a merchant ship captain held hostage by Somali pirates but left the operational details and rules of engagement to military commanders, National Security Adviser James. L. Jones said Tuesday."

so we're now believe the 0bama administration ?

reality check on all aisles !

/not to say I don't believe it
but come on, this is coming from team "Anti-America"
fresh from an around the world apology orgy

I'll believe a named source from the Obama adminstration before I believe anonymous sources quoted two times removed anytime.

We now have another category of breakdown, Nirther Breakdown, Creationist Breakdown, Obama ordered the Seals to Stand Down breakdown. What's next?

249 jimmyk  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:44:54am
However, military officials at the Pentagon involved in the operation said Navy SEAL snipers had not arrived on board the Bainbridge at that time and therefore could not have fired on the pirates.

Once Phillips had jumped off the lifeboat there was no need for snipers. I'm rather certain that the Bainbridge has sufficient weaponry to turn the lifeboat into a smoking pile of rubble. So what were the ROE that prevented them from doing so--an action at the time (without hindsight) that might have saved Capt. Phillips's life?

250 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:45:15am

re: #246 Charles

Have you ever asked Geller to use "less heated rhetoric," by the way?

.... ... ..... .... ... (crickets) .. .... ... ... .

251 allanhateme  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:46:05am

Thanks for bringing clarity, integrity and dignity to the conservative movement Charles. Boxy_brown's analysis is completely wrong. And I guarantee that Bush would have handled the situation the same way. The ultimate goal had to be the SAFE return of the Captain. From all accounts, 0bama gave the Navy commanders on the scene wide latitude in accomplishing that goal. Attacking 4 armed men, in a tiny, enclosed space was never an option. It's called patience. You use it when you are hunting. As for when the Captain jumped out of the boat, the SEALs were not on scene, the crew of the Bainbridge were caught off guard and were much further from the Captain than the pirates. Real life is not 24. And it's not Rambo. You know, it's this kind of idiocy that is killing the GOP. I'm sick of it. Half of the GOP is morphing into the same looney, raving shit-brains that mindlessly bashed Bush for 8 years. Good job. You have become what you claimed to detest. I'll gladly critize 0bama for his moronic economic policies and his naive and dangerous foreign policies, but there is NOTHING to fault in his handling of this incident. NOTHING! Stop it. Stop the ODS. Seek help.

252 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:48:03am

re: #248 Lee Coller

I'll believe a named source from the Obama adminstration before I believe anonymous sources quoted two times removed anytime.

We now have another category of breakdown, Nirther Breakdown, Creationist Breakdown, Obama ordered the Seals to Stand Down breakdown. What's next?

sorry, I don't buy it
8 years of the left attacking real Bush admin officials
and the media buying it all, straight from the DNC talking points memos

not embarassed to admit it
I don't believe the left, whether they are in power or out

but regardless of how Bush was treated
I would not believe the left from the totality of their tactics
and past history as a guide

253 Kronocide  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:48:18am

re: #247 Lee Coller

I get it, the rumor if true reflects badly on Obama, therefore it must be true.

No different than the left.

True, bad = true.
false, bad = true.
True, good = false
false, good = false

Zealots Logic Rectifier circuit.

254 jimmyk  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:49:53am

Oops, didn't see the earlier post that made the same point. As to the response by jcm: maybe, but the Bainbridge was only 300 yards away. I find it hard to believe that its guns couldn't hit a target the size of that lifeboat dead on.

255 Adrenalyn  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:50:35am

re: #251 allanhateme

Thanks for bringing clarity, integrity and dignity to the conservative movement Charles. Boxy_brown's analysis is completely wrong. And I guarantee that Bush would have handled the situation the same way. The ultimate goal had to be the SAFE return of the Captain. From all accounts, 0bama gave the Navy commanders on the scene wide latitude in accomplishing that goal. Attacking 4 armed men, in a tiny, enclosed space was never an option. It's called patience. You use it when you are hunting. As for when the Captain jumped out of the boat, the SEALs were not on scene, the crew of the Bainbridge were caught off guard and were much further from the Captain than the pirates. Real life is not 24. And it's not Rambo. You know, it's this kind of idiocy that is killing the GOP. I'm sick of it. Half of the GOP is morphing into the same looney, raving shit-brains that mindlessly bashed Bush for 8 years. Good job. You have become what you claimed to detest. I'll gladly critize 0bama for his moronic economic policies and his naive and dangerous foreign policies, but there is NOTHING to fault in his handling of this incident. NOTHING! Stop it. Stop the ODS. Seek help.

regardless of how Bush would have handled it
he is not POTUS

and he would NOT have been given any credit
credit like this, by the way, which would be used against the right - by the left, this only enables them

let him take credit, fine
why acknowledge it ?
you want 0bama re-elected in 2012 .......

256 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:51:31am

re: #251 allanhateme

Boxy_brown's analysis is completely wrong.

How so?

257 solicitr  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 10:53:25am

What "debunked lies?" Jones admits that the Admin line was, "We would like a peaceful resolution. However, if Captain Phillips' life is in danger you can take appropriate action." In my opinion (you are free of course to differ), giving priority to a "peaceful resolution" rather than dead pirates is confirmation of the essence of the "rumor."


------------------

Actually, I'd never even read Geller's blog, much less communicated with her, prior to your drawing attention to the Luton affair.

258 Dreader1962  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:01:18am

re: #251 allanhateme

Charles - can I give this one more than one upding?

259 Dreader1962  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:03:10am

re: #254 jimmyk

If your talking about using deck guns (not sure what the Bainbridge had), you are talking about area damage. I don't think Phillips made it too far from the lifeboat.

WAY too much speculation going on here.

260 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:05:31am

re: #256 Boxy_brown

Whelp, thanks for the clever counterargument allanhateme. Persuasive....
/

261 Gavriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:06:35am

re: #240 calcajun

No-only those things over which he has any control. Arming merchantmen is not within his control--that is usually the call of the countries where the ship delivers cargo--they will not allow you to bring guns of any kind into the country. It's more international law than anything else.

There are many things within his control. Including using navel patrol vessels to destroy pirates. Even with the International law stuff (which I don't know), Obama's the US president who can have huge influence on it.

But that wasn't my main point.

re: #228 calcajun

You miss the point. If a successful operation happens on the CiC's watch--he gets the credit. QED.

By calcajun's logic I can say "Pirates attacked a US Flagged ship and kidnapped the captain on Obama's watch -- he gets the blame. QED."

However, just as I don't blame Obama for the many historical circumstances that allowed for this pirate attack, I don't give Obama credit for the US's ability to field a capable navy.

262 allanhateme  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:08:04am

re: #255 Adrenalyn


you want 0bama re-elected in 2012 .......

No, I absolutely don't want 0bama re-elected. But having fever dreams of imagined conspiracies and supposed failings will only help him by marginalizing the conservative movement. Do you want to be moonbat? Are you no better than Janeane Garofolo? It would seem not.

As for boxy_brown, your analysis is wrong because it is built around baseless assumptions: you do not know what the ROE was, you do not know what the Navy's standing orders were, you do not know what was going on at the scene. Not only that, you attempt to extrapolate disparate positions to support some hypothesis about how 0bama would likely respond. How does being against 'torture' (however he or you defines it) dictate how he would or would not respond to this situation? How often have the FBI, who we know were attempting negotiations, just lined up the snipers and 'took the shot'? It's ridiculous. We should be congratulating our SEAL's and be happy the President let them do the job. Not second guessing and screeching like idiots about this and that based on unsourced internet rumors! Dear God people, there are real issues to be against 0bama and his ilk, no need to cheapen our opposition over bullshit.

263 Pupdawg  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:10:10am

That's the President Obama I know I knew!

264 Gus  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:14:58am

The initial rumor of was started on an email list. I believe it made its first appearance by a "BooBooFan" that posts at a Baylor web site. I picked up steam from there and went from rumor to "news" in the eyes of many people who were willing to accept it as fact despite the countless holes this piece of "gossip" contained based on an alleged conversation with someone "having spoken to some SEAL pals here in Virginia Beach yesterday and asking why this thing dragged out for 4 days."

It's good that this is now being reported by the Washington Times and was recently addressed at The Mudville Gazette. In cases like this I suggest extending the 24 hour rule to a 96 hour rule added with a high degree of skepticism. Regardless of a wait period it should always be considered a rumor to fit a politically motivated conspiracy theory.

Finally, this is not an endorsement of the president however this not only demeans the role of the United States but it demeans the role of the US Navy and those involved in the rescue mission that ended with the safe return of Captain Phillips and the deaths of 3 pirates.

265 calcajun  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:24:45am

re: #261 Gavriel

Nice strawmen--weak argument.

Look--if you don't like the man, fine. I'm none too wild about him either. But the harder you try to discredit him at every turn, the dumber you look when he actually puts his foot in it. When that happens--and it will--we won't have any credibility because of all the preceding baseless attacks.

266 Gavriel  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:32:29am

re: #265 calcajun

Sorry about the week argument.
I'm in no way trying to discredit him for the incident.
It hasn't made me think worse of him (unlike his recent interactions with South American dictators).
However, it hasn't made me think particularly better either.
It was something he didn't mess up (I'm glad).
Not something he did extra well and deserves some bonus credit.

267 Boxy_brown  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 11:39:38am

re: #262 allanhateme


As for boxy_brown, your analysis is wrong because it is built around baseless assumptions: you do not know what the ROE was, you do not know what the Navy's standing orders were, you do not know what was going on at the scene.


By those credentials neither do you? So how are you able to declare what I wrote "baseless"? I am a former officer in the USN, I have seen rules of engagement. They usually state that command has the "right and obligation" to protect American life.

Not only that, you attempt to extrapolate disparate positions to support some hypothesis about how 0bama would likely respond.


So peoples past behavior isn't indicative of the way they will handle problems in the present or future...

How does being against 'torture' (however he or you defines it) dictate how he would or would not respond to this situation


Thought I explained that. His position on enhanced interrogation and other aspects of the way our Armed Forces has conducted themselves has demonstrated that he believes in police action, not power projection or even robust defense. Instructing our Navy to "Restrict the use of lethal force until the captains life was in "imminent danger" is entirely plausible and has been alluded to even in the articles that have been cited in Obamas defense. Our military isn't a police force and such ambiguity doesn't go over well. "Balancing [command] authority with Washington's request to seek a peaceful outcome isn't the same thing as "take the shot as soon as it is clear", is it? Taking this to it's logical conclusion we are to wait for the monsters to fly aircraft full of people into buildings full of people and arrest the monster pieces afterword.

"How often have the FBI, who we know were attempting negotiations, just lined up the snipers and 'took the shot'? "


They don't usually because they are a POLICE force. (Get it) Do you want the USN to marandize every ship it attempts to board? Regardless, even the FBI will pull on someone holding a hostage if they can kill them without endangering the hostage. It isn't in their mandate to seek a "peaceful outcome".

"We should be congratulating our SEAL's and be happy the President let them do the job.


Indeed, instead of pouring accolades on someone because, at best, they didn't obstruct the operation.

"Dear God people, there are real issues to be against 0bama and his ilk, no need to cheapen our opposition over bullshit."


You need to breathe into a bag or something... you are hyperventilating.

268 robdouth  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:07:26pm

re: #265 calcajun

Nice strawmen--weak argument.

Look--if you don't like the man, fine. I'm none too wild about him either. But the harder you try to discredit him at every turn, the dumber you look when he actually puts his foot in it. When that happens--and it will--we won't have any credibility because of all the preceding baseless attacks.

Little boy who cried wolf. You do it enough, no one will listen. Think of the MSM with regards to Bush. Well maybe not because that worked on the feeble-minded in this country.

269 eric_odessit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:43:35pm

Guys,
In case no one has posted this yet.
Last night I saw Col. David Hunt on O'Reilly explain what happened during Captain Philips' escape attempt. Obama administration was not at fault. Yes, an opportunity was missed when the Captain jumped into the water: the pirate boat was not blown away by USS Bainbridge. But that has happened because previously existing Rules of Engagement and military bureaucracy did not authorize the Bainbridge commander to fire. If Obama can be blamed for that, so can Bush. But the lesson was learned, a standing authorization for the use of force was issued, and when the SEALs arrived later, they could deal with the situation decisively. I bet this standing authorization will still apply the next time something like this happens, so there will be no more missed opportunities.
Eric.

270 eric_odessit  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 12:50:17pm

re: #259 Dreader1962

Good point. But destroyers also have .50 cals to deal with small boats.
Eric.

271 solicitr  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:24:07pm

" How often have the FBI, who we know were attempting negotiations, just lined up the snipers and 'took the shot'?"

The FBI is a law enforcement agency. Its job is to arrest suspects for trial insofar as is possible and not use force beyond that which is reasonably necessary to that end, or to safeguard innocent life.

The Navy is an armed force: its brief is to kill the enemy. Only if the enemy is actively surrendering must it stay its hand. (Pirates under international law are "enemies of all mankind" and may be so treated on the high seas by any and all navies).


Unfortunately Obama apparently doesn't know the difference.

I will however give him this much credit- at least the USN is still empowered to capture pirates: several of our allies (Holland, Belgium, Canada) have a catch-and-release policy! Grrrrrr.

272 funky chicken  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 1:25:23pm

re: #269 eric_odessit

Yes, an opportunity was missed when the Captain jumped into the water: the pirate boat was not blown away by USS Bainbridge. But that has happened because previously existing Rules of Engagement and military bureaucracy did not authorize the Bainbridge commander to fire. If Obama can be blamed for that, so can Bush. But the lesson was learned, a standing authorization for the use of force was issued, and when the SEALs arrived later, they could deal with the situation decisively.

thanks for posting that

273 Capoftex  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 2:52:13pm

I suspect that like most things, the truth lies somewhere down the middle here. If we shouldn't believe internet rumors on face value, I think the same could and should be said of anything that comes out of ANY administration.

274 Capoftex  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 2:54:18pm

Oh yes, I saw David Hunt too, and he did have blame for Obama and everyone else involved, with the exception of the SEALS.

Obama isn't the total failure many on the right would like him to be on this, but he isn't the guy they are trying to portray either.

275 GlockNspell  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 5:24:09pm

All I can say is "wow". Another fabrication. After all the real truths that are being revealled here, Im seriously starting to wonder if we can believe any of the stuff about Obama's relationship with Willliam Ayers or Rev Wright or Rezko - its starting to look like that was all made up by the far Right too.

276 Boxy_Brown  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:04:50pm

re: #275 GlockNspell

All I can say is "wow". Another fabrication. After all the real truths that are being revealled here, Im seriously starting to wonder if we can believe any of the stuff about Obama's relationship with Willliam Ayers or Rev Wright or Rezko - its starting to look like that was all made up by the far Right too.

Perfect.

277 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:06:46pm

re: #275 GlockNspell

All I can say is "wow". Another fabrication. After all the real truths that are being revealled here, Im seriously starting to wonder if we can believe any of the stuff about Obama's relationship with Willliam Ayers or Rev Wright or Rezko - its starting to look like that was all made up by the far Right too.

It wasn't.

278 swamprat  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 6:51:14pm

re: #275 GlockNspell

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahahahahahahahaha!

GASP!

WHEEZE!

hahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!
!
!

Thanks, that was great.

279 swamprat  Wed, Apr 22, 2009 7:16:11pm

You can bet your fanny that this thread will drag on. Wouldn't be surprised if it hit a thousand. We will probably have anti-Obama, and pro-Obama, fanatics jostling for the top of the soapbox on and on, into the night.

Uber-Obama, the super negotiator, diplomat, and liberal Santa Claus doesn't exist.

Lenin/Stalin/Mao-Obama with his armed civilian brigade to remove all firearms, puppies, and loose change over the government quota, doesn't exist either.

Both sides have fake distorted images they promote in order to affect public opinion.

Obama is a guy. He'll do his best. If he screws up, America will learn to vote a little more to the right. If he is an amazing success, we will learn to be a little more tolerant of starry-eyed liberals. But life is going to proceed.

280 Scorch  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 3:50:20am

I posted on this also but included only the reply from RADM Lou Sarosdy to the original email which seemed uncredible by the language used in it. This was only posted by me after contacting my cousin who knew Sarosdy and one other person involved in the email. From the reply I received they stood by the RADM's comments (not the original email circulated) and as noted by them the Obama administration did no worse or better than previous administrations in allowing themselves the luxury of claiming no involvement if it failed or claiming having a guiding hand if it succeded.
It seems reasonable that retired Marine Corps Gen. James L. Jones, Obama's national security advisor, would make these comments to the Washington Times.

281 doubter4444  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:39:29am

re: #279 swamprat

You can bet your fanny that this thread will drag on. Wouldn't be surprised if it hit a thousand. We will probably have anti-Obama, and pro-Obama, fanatics jostling for the top of the soapbox on and on, into the night.

Uber-Obama, the super negotiator, diplomat, and liberal Santa Claus doesn't exist.

Lenin/Stalin/Mao-Obama with his armed civilian brigade to remove all firearms, puppies, and loose change over the government quota, doesn't exist either.

Both sides have fake distorted images they promote in order to affect public opinion.

Obama is a guy. He'll do his best. If he screws up, America will learn to vote a little more to the right. If he is an amazing success, we will learn to be a little more tolerant of starry-eyed liberals. But life is going to proceed.

As they say at FARK: This.


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The Big Moon - Why Director/Editor - Jonjo LoweProducer - Rosie BrearDoP - Alistair LittleCinema 4D Animation - Jay DarlingtonGrade - Myles Bevan @ Time Based ArtsEdit/FX Assistant - Carina EtaeCollage Design Assist - Bex LiuChoreography - Grace Nicol Special thanks - Thrds Studio, ...
Thanos
23 hours ago
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Deep Sea Diver - Impossible Weight (Studio Video) “Impossible Weight” off Deep Sea Diver’s new album 'Impossible Weight' out now. Filmed during the recording of Impossible Weight at Hall of Justice in Seattle WA. STREAM / BUY "Impossible Weight" here smarturl.it WATCH OFFICAL MUSIC VIDEO HERE : ...
Thanos
5 days, 2 hours ago
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Eddie Vedder - Matter of Time (Official Music Video) The official music video for "Matter of Time" by Eddie Vedder. Written for everyone worldwide afflicted with Epidermolysis Bullosa (EB). To help fund research aimed at treating and curing EB, please donate to the EB Research Partnership: ebresearch.org “Matter ...
Thanos
5 days, 15 hours ago
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#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 201122 Saturday was general maintenance around the place.Mowing, weed whacking, palm tree trimming, etc.Nothing picture worthy or really, even pond related. Sunday was more rain. We really were lucky for that first year. Not one Sunday did we get rained ...
dangerman
6 days, 19 hours ago
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Nduduzo Makhathini - UmlothaMusic video by Nduduzo Makhathini performing Umlotha. © 2020 Universal Music (Pty) Ltd South Africa vevo.ly
Thanos
1 week, 1 day ago
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Brian Eno - Decline and Fall (From ‘O Nome Da Morte’) The official music video for "Decline and Fall”, a track from the new album “Film Music 1976 - 2020”, is a cinematic collaboration between Brian Eno and acclaimed Brazilian film director Henrique Goldman which contemplates rain and fire, fiction ...
Thanos
1 week, 5 days ago
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Brian Eno - Like I Was a Spectator 'Like I Was A Spectator', a brand new track by Brian Eno with Daniel Lanois and Roger Eno from ‘Apollo – Atmospheres & Soundtracks – Extended Edition’. The video was created using rare N.A.S.A. footage.Order now: brianeno.lnk.to Follow Brian ...
Thanos
1 week, 5 days ago
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#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 201115After two really sunny and swell days since Eta left, Saturday was a mix of mostly sun and a bit of rain.We still managed to be really productive both days anyway. Got all the lava rock washed and shoveled into ...
dangerman
2 weeks ago
Views: 1,178 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 6
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Michael Kiwanuka - Solid Ground (Live at the V&A) Listen to the Mercury Prize winning album ’KIWANUKA' now: michaelkiwanuka.lnk.to Michael Kiwanuka performing Solid Ground taken from the Mercury Prize winning album 'KIWANUKA' live at the Victoria & Albert museum in London. Sign up to Michael's mailing list: michaelkiwanuka.lnk.toFollow ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 1 day ago
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Deep Sea Diver - Impossible Weight Featuring Sharon Van Etten (Official Video) “Impossible Weight” off Deep Sea Diver’s new album 'Impossible Weight' out now. Order 'Impossible Weight' here smarturl.it Distributed by ATO Records ~~~~~~~~~ Directors: Jessica Dobson, Peter Mansen, Tyler KalbergArt direction: Jessica Dobson, Tyler KalbergDirector of photography: Tyler KalbergCamera operator ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 1 day ago
Views: 1,527 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
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