Fire Marshall Bill’s Anti-Vaccination Madness

Health • Views: 6,446

Apparently, physicians and medical scientists are just as disgusted with the Huffington Post as your average “right wing” blogger. Who knew?

Jim Carrey, husband of anti-vaccination kook Jenny McCarthy, has written a screed for Arianna advocating the latest Dark Ages fantasy of the left and the right: that vaccinations cause autism.

This idiotic excrescence has prompted an excellent, darkly hilarious post from Orac at Respectful Insolence: Fire Marshall Bill discusses vaccines and autism on The Huffington Post.

After writing about a new low of pseudoscience published in that repository of all things antivaccine and quackery, The Huffington Post (do you even have to ask?), on Tuesday, I had hoped—really hoped—that I could ignore HuffPo for a while. After all, there’s only so much stupid that even Orac can tolerate before his logic circuits start shorting out and he has to shut down a while so that his self-repair circuits can undo the damage. Besides, I sometimes think that the twit who created HuffPo, Arianna Huffington, likes the attention that turds dropped onto her blog by quackery boosters of the like of Kim Evans. Certainly, the HuffPo editors seem utterly untroubled that, among physicians and medical scientists, HuffPo is viewed with utter contempt and ridicule. Certainly, I view Arianna’s vanity project that way whenever it publishes the antivaccine stylings of ignoramuses like Deirdre Imus or cranks like Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., and David Kirby, especially now that HuffPo’s decided that antivaccine nonsense isn’t enough and that it needs to “kick the pseudoscience up a notch” with its latest quack recruits.

Apparently, HuffPo has decided that even Kim Evans is not enough to bury its reputation when it comes to any form of medical science so deep into the mud that it would require nuclear weapons to blast it out; that is, if you even accept the contention that HuffPo even has a reputation for medical science. What am I talking about? I’m sure many of you know; you’ve deluged me with copies of links to this article. No, no, don’t worry, I’m not annoyed. It tells me that you, my readers, feel that this article is something that so desperately cries out for a heapin’ helpin’ of not-so-Respectful Insolence and that said Insolence is what you desperately want to see applied to it.

Never let it be said that I don’t give the people what they want.

Read the whole thing…

Meanwhile, here’s an easy and fun way for you to fight back against the tide of ignorance without leaving the comfort of your Intarweb-connected PC: GIVE VACCINES.

Jump to bottom

467 comments
1 astronmr20  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:32:18pm

"...let me show you something!"

2 yochanan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:32:53pm

iron lung machine as a kid i used to see them.

3 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:33:41pm
Never let it be said that I don’t give the people what they want.

LOL

4 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:34:15pm

Which might fit in beautifully with the subversive message of Earth Day in that there's too many gosh-darn people on the planet as it is.

5 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:34:47pm

The Bunny married Ace Ventura? OMG.

6 earthwirm  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:34:58pm

Anti-vaccine freaks are not on the right anymore. They form their own wing. Let's call it the lobotomy wing. It's where the far left wing and the far right wing brain material is cut out of the skull and implanted in a dodo bird.

7 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:35:13pm

And in news from the old country .. cases of measles in the UK have risen a massive 22% in the past 2 years .. but theres no connection.

Keep the alarm on SNOOZE.

8 jaunte  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:36:06pm

These ignoramuses are going to get a lot of people hurt.

9 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:36:49pm

re: #7 Buster Bunny
They are fucking idiots, diseases damn near wiped out are making a come back, they'll mutate and be harder to kill. Bugs are damn resilient.

10 Van Helsing  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:37:10pm

Geez.
I'm not funny enough for this vile shit,

11 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:37:22pm
12 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:38:05pm

re: #5 pingjockey

The Bunny married Ace Ventura? OMG.

Yes .. its the dynamic duo fighting vaccination crime ..

Daft Doggy Vet and Ignoramus Bunny !

13 Truck Monkey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:38:29pm

We should definately listen to this guy.

14 Egregious Philbin  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:38:48pm

Thank God we have uneducated B list celebrities to teach us science!

Is there anything they can't do?

15 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:39:07pm

re: #12 Buster Bunny
Hehehe! They have other idiots listening to the garbage though.

16 ArmyWife  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:39:40pm

Last I checked Jim Carey was a comedian.


Wait. I lost my head a minute. If Al Gore can be a science SME, then by gosh, so can Jim Carey. Their science yields equal credibility.

17 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:39:45pm
But what really makes this analogy so brain dead is that it was the very epidemiological methods that have so consistently failed to find any correlation between vaccines and autism that led scientists to realize that smoking is strongly correlated with cancer. Jim, while accepting the epidemiology linking tobacco smoke to cancer, rejects the very same sorts of methodology when it doesn't produce the results he wants to see.

Interesting how similar to other science deniers.

18 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:39:58pm

re: #14 Egregious Philbin


Work in a useful trade?

19 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:40:14pm

are these people on crack? we already have old diseases creeping back into the first world becasue of this nonsense.

20 yochanan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:40:57pm

pop anti science were have we heard that before? i.d., global warming and now this.

21 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:41:04pm

re: #9 pingjockey

They are fucking idiots, diseases damn near wiped out are making a come back, they'll mutate and be harder to kill. Bugs are damn resilient.

The one to watch for is Tuberculosis. The only reason that was under control is because we fought it hand tooth and nail. But its on a resurgence because some people think its just not worth treating.

You think measles is a worry .. try spending the last few days of your life coughing the inner parts of your lungs up ..

Fun fun fun.

22 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:42:31pm
23 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:42:35pm

GIVE VACCINES.

done - fun!

24 Kobalt  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:42:46pm

that rubber-faced idiot needs to stick with comedy instead of attempting to practice internal medicine

25 Jimash  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:43:16pm

I wonder if this stuff is funded by the Crutch and Braces lobby.

26 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:43:37pm

re: #21 Buster Bunny
I know the San Diego jail started testing for TB because of all the folks from points further south being arrested and having TB!

27 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:44:15pm
The vaccines in the vaccination schedule are not safe because of any Court ruling, as Courts do not determine matters of science except when they intersect with matters of law, and then they all too often don't do such a good job. Vaccines in the current vaccination schedule are safe because they have been shown in scientific studies to be safe, and numerous epidemiological studies have failed to link them with autism. What the Court says about this is irrelevant to the science; it is only relevant to policy and the law. I say this now even though the Court made the right decision based on science, and I would have said exactly the same thing if, as I had originally feared, the emotional stories of the children in the three test cases had swayed the court to rule that vaccines caused their autism.

I think that bolded part is something the creationists should also keep in mind.

28 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:44:20pm
29 Athos  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:44:44pm

What can we say - this crap appeals to nitwits who like to look towards Hollywood idiots for information on science and protecting their children from easily preventable diseases.

It's far safer bet to chose the opposite of what these Hollywood cretins say.

Unfortunately, there are too many who aren't considering the sources and believe in not vaccinating their kids.

30 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:45:25pm

I'm becoming convinced that there's some kind of malevolent alien spaceship orbiting the Earth beaming down Stupid Rays, so that we all wipe ourselves out, and they can take over.

31 Athos  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:45:34pm

re: #17 Sharmuta

Interesting how similar to other science deniers.

They only see what they want to believe as opposed to believing what they see.

32 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:46:56pm

re: #28 buzzsawmonkey

In June, TB is switching to all-digital.

Make sure you use that coupon to get your taxpayer subsidized converter vaccine.

33 BrianK  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:46:59pm

test

34 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:47:18pm

I enjoyed som of Jim Carrey's earlier stuff. I was proud of a fellow Canadian that had once again made it big in the U.S.A entertainment industry. I lost all respect for him when I found out that the went for U.S. citizenship.

/just call it personal...

35 Athos  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:47:42pm

re: #30 Occasional Reader

I'm becoming convinced that there's some kind of malevolent alien spaceship orbiting the Earth beaming down Stupid Rays, so that we all wipe ourselves out, and they can take over.

If anyone from the HuffPo read that, they would immediately put on their tin-foil hats and start on the el cubo calling tree to ensure that all of them got their 'protection' on.

36 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:47:52pm

re: #31 Athos
One thing I forget and must remind myself, this vaccine nonsense, AGW, etc...are emotionally driven. No logic, reason, facts can sway these fools from their emotional response.

37 ArmyWife  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:47:58pm

re: #30 Occasional Reader

Quick! Get thee to Huffington Post to publish your dissertation on this phenomenon!

38 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:48:04pm

re: #30 Occasional Reader


I'm becoming convinced that there's some kind of malevolent alien spaceship orbiting the Earth beaming down Stupid Rays

There's a vaccine for that!

39 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:48:09pm

What we need is a vaccination against stupid if people are actually looking to Playboy bunnies and Hollywood comedians for medical advice.

40 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:48:12pm

OT: Wait, wait... an insight from last night's South Park (which I recorded and am watching now)... "Jews can't be pirates". Cartman may be onto something. I can't think of any Jewish pirates.

41 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:48:57pm

re: #38 solomonpanting

re: #39 Ringo the Gringo

Sorry guys, "you can't fix stupid".

42 anchors_aweigh  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:49:03pm

I question the timing!

43 splendid confusion  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:49:23pm

As the parent of a child on the autistic spectrum and as someone studying for an Autism Disorder Specialist certificate through UC-Davis' fine program, I'd like to tell you that THERE IS NO ONE KNOWN CAUSE of autism. Genetics seem to be important, but there's not a single gene or gene sequence or combination. Some folks think it's diet related--that kids don't process certain amino acid chains or don't produce the right enzymes. Environmental factors could be at play as well. There's such a wide variety of disability, too--everyone from kids with Asperger's Syndrome to severely non-communicative autistic fall on the spectrum as it is now defined. There are also children who exhibit the behaviors from very early in their lives to those whose deficits show up right around the time of vaccinations. The developmental milestones "neuro-typical" kids reach are also tested by pediatricians right around the same time as the rounds of shots.
The original British study linking vaccines to autism only included 12 kids and has been debunked as a bad study. I know as a mother McCarthy wants desperately for there to be a concrete reason or cause for her son's deficits. If you can pinpoint a cause then there's the potential for a cure--whether a drug or whatever else. Mc Carthy and Carrey's non-scientific musings don't help one child or one parent or one teacher or one researcher find ways to reach the austitic. Perhaps we won't find one definitive cause. Perhaps it's okay that people have different kinds of brains. At least that's what I like to believe. At some point you have to accept and love your child the way they are.

44 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:49:35pm

re: #30 Occasional Reader

I'm becoming convinced that there's some kind of malevolent alien spaceship orbiting the Earth beaming down Stupid Rays, so that we all wipe ourselves out, and they can take over.

[hat tip: James Tiptree Jr. (nom de plom), "The Screwfly Solution"]

45 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:49:37pm

re: #40 Occasional Reader

OT: Wait, wait... an insight from last night's South Park (which I recorded and am watching now)... "Jews can't be pirates". Cartman may be onto something. I can't think of any Jewish pirates.

[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

46 mikalm  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:50:14pm

Here's a possible reason why this stuff gets such heavy play at HuffPo: Arianna Huffington is a former disciple of both Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (AKA Osho) and John-Roger Hinkins, both of whom opposed Western medicine, and advocated all sorts of dangerous quackery as "natural" or "spiritual" healing.

47 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:52:12pm

re: #45 Charles

[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

Dammit, another theory goes down in flames.

One such pirate was Moses Cohen Henriques

PAGING BUZZSAWMONKEY

COME IN, BUZZSAWMONKEY

THERE'S PUNNIN' TO BE DONE, YARR.

48 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:52:43pm

re: #46 mikalm
Ah yes, the Bagwan. They actually changed the name, for a while, of Antelope Ore. because of his whatever you call it there. He also had 53 Rolls Royces for his "bad back".

49 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:53:03pm

re: #40 Occasional Reader

OT: Wait, wait... an insight from last night's South Park (which I recorded and am watching now)... "Jews can't be pirates". Cartman may be onto something. I can't think of any Jewish pirates.

Oyyy me hearties!

50 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:53:06pm

re: #43 splendid confusion

I read this book "Son Rise" back in the 80s - would appreciate your comments.

It has evolved to:

[Link: www.autismtreatmentcenter.org...]

51 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:53:06pm

re: #44 Occasional Reader

[hat tip: James Tiptree Jr. (nom de plom), "The Screwfly Solution"]

'th' hell?

/looks at beer suspicously

52 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:53:40pm

re: #46 mikalm

Here's a possible reason why this stuff gets such heavy play at HuffPo: Arianna Huffington is a former disciple of both Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (AKA Osho) and John-Roger Hinkins, both of whom opposed Western medicine, and advocated all sorts of dangerous quackery as "natural" or "spiritual" healing. a kook, end of story.

FTFY

53 Van Helsing  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:53:47pm

re: #47 Occasional Reader

Right Then, no puns here!
Oh never mind.

54 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:54:00pm

re: #49 Alouette

Oyyy me hearties!

Treasure Oy-land

55 Jimash  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:54:01pm

re: #45 Charles

Yo ho ho and a bottle of Manishewitz.

56 BrianK  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:54:17pm

test

57 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:54:22pm

re: #40 Occasional Reader

OT: Wait, wait... an insight from last night's South Park (which I recorded and am watching now)... "Jews can't be pirates". Cartman may be onto something. I can't think of any Jewish pirates.

Episode available online: FatBeard

58 Truck Monkey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:55:09pm

re: #40 Occasional Reader

OT: Wait, wait... an insight from last night's South Park (which I recorded and am watching now)... "Jews can't be pirates". Cartman may be onto something. I can't think of any Jewish pirates.

Oh yeah! How about Black Beardowicz? Henry Morganthau? Captain Kiddstein?
/

59 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:55:15pm

re: #45 Charles

[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

Rrrrrriiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhttt, so let me see, if two Jewish guys were pirates, way back when, by dafault all Jews are pirates, right? Therefore using that logic must mean that if 7 muslim guys fly planes into buildings and the ground, in a terrorist attack against the US of A, all muslim guys are terrorists, right?

(I had better put in the sarc tags)

///////////////////////////////

60 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:56:05pm

re: #40 Occasional Reader

OT: Wait, wait... an insight from last night's South Park (which I recorded and am watching now)... "Jews can't be pirates". Cartman may be onto something. I can't think of any Jewish pirates.

Here ya go.

61 Randall Gross  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:56:22pm

re: #46 mikalm

Here's a possible reason why this stuff gets such heavy play at HuffPo: Arianna Huffington is a former disciple of both Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (AKA Osho) and John-Roger Hinkins, both of whom opposed Western medicine, and advocated all sorts of dangerous quackery as "natural" or "spiritual" healing.

Gosh she's right in line with "gotta keep the body pure" Terry Nichols and Eric Rudolph...

62 okiej  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:56:53pm

That's a fun little game on the "Give Vaccines" site that Charles linked to. But, it locked up at 100% level 5.

63 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:56:59pm
Jim Carrey, husband of anti-vaccination kook Jenny McCarthy...

Shows you how much I follow pop culture and gossip tv, I didn't even know they were a couple, let alone married.

Remind me again why I have a tv? Oh, yeah. Xbox.

64 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:57:19pm

re: #61 Thanos

Gosh she's right in line with "gotta keep the body pure" Terry Nichols and Eric Rudolph...

I wonder if Arianna ever met Bhagwan Bill.

/oop ack

65 splendid confusion  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:57:21pm

Bobibutu,
There was quite a lot of interest in that method of getting down on the floor with the kids. The problem was that there wasn't a whole lot of teaching going on. It's being found that the most effective methods are based in good old-fashioned Skinnerian psychology. Discrete Trial Training, Picture Exchange Communication System and the Denver Model are the big ones right now. Check out Davis' MIND Institute website. They have a ton of great articles, seminars, ect...

[Link: www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu...]

66 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:57:27pm

re: #58 Truck Monkey

Oh yeah! How about Black Beardowicz? Henry Morganthau? Captain Kiddstein?
/

Jewbeard!

67 brookly red  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:57:47pm

re: #58 Truck Monkey

Oh yeah! How about Black Beardowicz? Henry Morganthau? Captain Kiddstein?
/

captain madoff

68 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:57:51pm

re: #61 Thanos

Gosh she's right in line with "gotta keep the body pure" Terry Nichols and Eric Rudolph...

Works for other terrorists. Why not him?

69 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:57:57pm

re: #66 joecitizen

Jewbeard!

Jack Sparrowitz!

70 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:58:17pm

re: #30 Occasional Reader

I'm becoming convinced that there's some kind of malevolent alien spaceship orbiting the Earth beaming down Stupid Rays, so that we all wipe ourselves out, and they can take over.

You stole the idea of the book I'm writing!
Well, my book has the aliens being a lot more subtle.

71 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:58:28pm

re: #67 brookly red

captain madoff

Bernie Madoff at first, but was caught later.

/more of a cabin boy, IMO

72 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:58:35pm

re: #61 Thanos

Gosh she's right in line with "gotta keep the body pure" Terry Nichols and Eric Rudolph...

Rudolph says the body is sacred and pollutants like over-processed foods should be avoided.

Except when its not yours and you want to blow it up, right?

73 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:59:10pm

re: #30 Occasional Reader

I'm becoming convinced that there's some kind of malevolent alien spaceship orbiting the Earth beaming down Stupid Rays, so that we all wipe ourselves out, and they can take over.

They already took over. Sorry.

74 Van Helsing  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:59:16pm

Your text to link...
To be Nazi to be.

75 alegrias  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 6:59:38pm

So Sad Arianna's become Extreme.

Arianna used to be a serious person of Greek heritage, who debated with William F. Buckley on his "Firing Line" tv show.

She had been a serious debater or president of the Oxford Union or some such group as a young woman. She coulda been a Margaret Thatcher type, but went Hollywood or flipped out after her marriage to that guy who outed himself later after they had children.

Ugh, that could make a person doubt everything they'd believed in.

Except basic science, Louis Pasteur's experiments, all that medical progress.

76 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:00:37pm

re: #65 splendid confusion

Thx - my introduction was stone age in the 80s. It was a start.

77 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:00:53pm

re: #70 Kosh's Shadow

You stole the idea of the book I'm writing!
Well, my book has the aliens being a lot more subtle.

Definitely check out "The Screwfly Solution", if you haven't already.

78 mikalm  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:01:37pm

re: #52 ArchangelMichael

FTFY

True, but it's good to have some backstory. Relatively few people know about how close she was, and may still be, with John-Roger, guru of the MSIA cult.

Self-help writer Peter McWilliams of Life 101 fame, who had a major falling-out with MSIA, wrote a hilarious expose of the group and John-Roger called LIFE 102: What to Do When Your Guru Sues You. There's a great chapter in it about Arianna Huffington that dishes all sorts of dirt about her relationship with John-Roger, her husband Michael Huffington, and similar subject.

(Unfortunately, the book's subtitle wasn't a joke. McWilliams got taken to court over the work, lost his case, and had to pull the book off the market. Life 102 is now a collector's item, often fetching $100 or more.)

79 ArmyWife  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:01:51pm

Good night, guys. I'm going to go read and then get some sleep so I can hit the road back to Baltimore tomorrow morning. Be good!

80 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:01:51pm

Must away...........take care lizards!

81 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:03:11pm

re: #77 Occasional Reader

Definitely check out "The Screwfly Solution", if you haven't already.

I probably read it a while ago, but I'll look again. It isn't in the Tiptree book that is immediately accessible (I just checked).

82 shiek al beif salami  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:04:13pm

This is the kind of shit that only an over-fed, underworked, too-well housed, over-pampered, lacking any common-sense cretin can come up with.

83 MJ  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:04:16pm

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. on vaccinations:

Deadly Immunity
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. investigates the government cover-up of a mercury/autism scandal
[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]


Vaccine Court: Autism Debate Continues
[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]


Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup

Complete moron.

84 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:05:29pm

Cartman [whispering in Mogadishu pirate lair]: "These aren't pirates... they're just a bunch of black people."

I love this show.

85 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:06:11pm

re: #83 MJ

RFK jr. is another fucking idiot.

86 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:07:01pm

re: #2 yochanan

iron lung machine as a kid i used to see them.

yochanan -

Grew up about 1/2 to 3/4 mile away from "Roosevelt Hospital" - Originally built for TB patients. I feel you. 90+ % of the time "vax" is better. Good odds if you ask me.

-S-

87 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:09:17pm

re: #83 MJ

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. on vaccinations:

Deadly Immunity
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. investigates the government cover-up of a mercury/autism scandal
[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Vaccine Court: Autism Debate Continues
[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup

[Video]

Complete moron.

Hugo Chavez cheerleader... anti-science idiot... the Kennedy family are just moving from strength to strength, aren't they?

88 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:09:56pm

re: #84 Occasional Reader

Wait 'till you get to the musical number.

89 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:09:58pm

This is hard. I have so much respect for Charles, and lizardom, and therefore feel serious pain from all the scorn poured out here. But I have looked into this issue for about 20 years now (since my first baby was born), and based on facts and real science, have completely rejected all vaccinations for my three youngest children.

The late, great, Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, Chairman of the Medical Licensing Committee for Illinois, and professor at the Medical School of the University of Illinois, among other accomplishments, was against vaccinations. He was ahead of his time in many medical areas.

One book he wrote was called Malepractice, questioning many accepted practices in the 70's that were bad for women -- the wholescale prescription of Valium for women, the humiliating and dangerous and unnecessary interventions in childbirth, the huge number of unnecessary hysterectomies.

He didn't reject vaccinations for emotional reasons. He analyzed the problem, and presented evidence.

There are many other scientists who have also analyzed evidence, and have criticized the epidemiological studies analytically -- this is really not the equivalent of Flat Earth believers, guys.

Am happy to respectfully discuss with anyone -- though I haven't been through the evidence much lately --

90 MJ  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:10:09pm

re: #85 pingjockey

RFK jr. is another fucking idiot.

Yup.
He's the worse of the group since his name carries a certain amount of weight.

91 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:10:19pm

re: #86 Dr. Shalit
I'm old enough to remember seeing iron lungs at the docs office as a kid. It is amazing what 40 years of research and medicine has done. Now these idiots want to go back to pre 1900 medicine. Idiots. IIRC, if you were born after 1965(?) you don't have a smallpox vaccination scar.
I do and some of troops didn't know what it was!

92 joecitizen  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:11:05pm

ot but breaking..dept. of defense to release a shitload of 'prisoner abuse' photos by the end of May..poopercooper just had it on cnn

93 Ziggy Standard  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:11:52pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Wait 'till you get to the musical number.

That's it, I'm off to watch South Park. Nite all:)

94 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:12:00pm

re: #90 MJ

That is a huge problem right there, but AFAIK, he hasn't done anything signifigant on his own, just traded on the name.

95 jorline  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:12:20pm

re: #83 MJ

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. on vaccinations:

Deadly Immunity
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. investigates the government cover-up of a mercury/autism scandal
[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Vaccine Court: Autism Debate Continues
[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup

[Video]Complete moron.

I'll spare myself the agony of watching Jr.

96 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:12:59pm

re: #92 joecitizen

ot but breaking..dept. of defense to release a shitload of 'prisoner abuse' photos by the end of May..poopercooper just had it on cnn

Isn't that special.

Um... Obama, how 'bout doing something for our side for a change? You know... the US? Remember? You're the, um, President?

97 simonml  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:13:46pm

re: #8 jaunte

These ignoramuses are going to get a lot of people hurt.

As a future pediatrician I cannot stress the impact anti vaccine individuals have on the health of this country. It is amazing to see people trust Jenny McCarthy and distrust their family physician. Unbelievable.

98 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:15:04pm

re: #97 simonml

polio baby, polio.

99 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:15:23pm

re: #89 clear vision

This is hard. I have so much respect for Charles, and lizardom, and therefore feel serious pain from all the scorn poured out here. But I have looked into this issue for about 20 years now (since my first baby was born), and based on facts and real science, have completely rejected all vaccinations for my three youngest children.

Then I'm sorry to say, you have been fooled by pseudo-scientists, quacks, and snake oil salesmen and on top of that, you may be contributing to the resurgence of epidemics, both minor and life-threatening, long thought to be under control.

100 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:16:42pm

re: #89 clear vision

Okay, why was he against them? Just saying he was against them isn't enough. What causes did he give for not vaccinating? Just don't stop there, give us some details or a small link.

101 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:17:41pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Wait 'till you get to the musical number.

You were right.

102 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:18:27pm

re: #89 clear vision
Some one has sold you a bill of goods. I will disagree. Having been to the 3rd world 6 times over twenty years for at least 7 months each time, the ravages of diseases we have eradicated here are not to be believed.

103 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:18:42pm

re: #101 Occasional Reader

You were right.

I like it almost as much as Mickey Mouse giving a Jonas Brother a DeNiro stomping.

"We got a problem, a-ha? I didn't think so, a-ha."

104 simonml  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:19:28pm

re: #89 clear vision

This is hard. I have so much respect for Charles, and lizardom, and therefore feel serious pain from all the scorn poured out here. But I have looked into this issue for about 20 years now (since my first baby was born), and based on facts and real science, have completely rejected all vaccinations for my three youngest children.

The late, great, Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, Chairman of the Medical Licensing Committee for Illinois, and professor at the Medical School of the University of Illinois, among other accomplishments, was against vaccinations. He was ahead of his time in many medical areas.

One book he wrote was called Malepractice, questioning many accepted practices in the 70's that were bad for women -- the wholescale prescription of Valium for women, the humiliating and dangerous and unnecessary interventions in childbirth, the huge number of unnecessary hysterectomies.

He didn't reject vaccinations for emotional reasons. He analyzed the problem, and presented evidence.

There are many other scientists who have also analyzed evidence, and have criticized the epidemiological studies analytically -- this is really not the equivalent of Flat Earth believers, guys.

Am happy to respectfully discuss with anyone -- though I haven't been through the evidence much lately --

Vaccines save lives. Individuals may get away with not vaccinating their children due to herd immunity but there is a critical mass of unimmunized people that will eventually overcome our mass immunity. With this much publicity for the "anti vaccine" people, we are fast approaching that critical mass

105 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:19:30pm

re: #89 clear vision

You rejected all vaccinations for all your younger children? Based on what?

106 gymmom  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:20:27pm

I am blessed with a bright independent child. Never intervened much with homework until she practiced her presentation on the Measles vaccine. 1/4 was the "dangers" of the vaccine and how they can kill people. I made her take it out. (We're doctors for crying out loud!) She was only in the 6th grade at the time and didn't want to get in trouble with the health teacher, but after listening to both parents lecture her on all the great things vaccines have done, she relented. Shouldn't be this hard!

107 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:20:37pm

re: #99 ArchangelMichael

Then I'm sorry to say, you have been fooled by pseudo-scientists, quacks, and snake oil salesmen and on top of that, you may be contributing to the resurgence of epidemics, both minor and life-threatening, long thought to be under control.

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

108 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:23:09pm

re: #102 pingjockey

Some one has sold you a bill of goods. I will disagree. Having been to the 3rd world 6 times over twenty years for at least 7 months each time, the ravages of diseases we have eradicated here are not to be believed.

I agree that in the third world diseases are terrible. That is because the nutrition and sanitation are so lacking. Vaccinations can't help with those -- and if you give them to children whose bodies are weak, you have even worse and more numerous side effects than you do in Western countries.

109 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:23:48pm

re: #97 simonml

As a future pediatrician I cannot stress the impact anti vaccine individuals have on the health of this country. It is amazing to see people trust Jenny McCarthy and distrust their family physician. Unbelievable.

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

Just Google scarlet fever please. It's caused by strep.

110 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:23:49pm

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

Actually there was a vaccine for it, but what really changed the game was effective antibiotics.

111 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:24:28pm

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

I had scarlet fever as a child. It didn't make me deaf, it just reduced my ability to hear. When my children were babies, my husband was under instruction that if one of the kids was crying in another room and I didn't respond, he was to say something to me. I've just lost the top few percents of my hearing, usually only a slight problem.

112 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:24:54pm

re: #107 clear vision

Well a lot of that can be accounted for by rises in personal hygenie and the werewithal to actually practice it on a daily or regular basis. I don't think that a lot of diseases were on the decline that great before the advent of vaccines.

113 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:25:06pm

re: #107 clear vision

Oh, now this is rich.

So not only are you claiming that vaccinations cause autism... you're also claiming that vaccines don't work?!

114 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:25:35pm

re: #105 kansas

You rejected all vaccinations for all your younger children? Based on what?

Based on investigating the risks versus the benefits. There is a lot of contradictory info out there, but I went for the evidence-based kind, not the mere assertion. It took a few years (my middle kids had one or two vaccines), but in the end, none of them were worth the harm.

115 simonml  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:25:42pm

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

Arguing about an un-immunizable disease does not make immunizations any less important. Let's talk those

116 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:26:04pm

:sigh: I'm going back to my tri-tip. Later Lizards, keep fighting troof with truth!

117 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:26:05pm

re: #114 clear vision

Based on investigating the risks versus the benefits. There is a lot of contradictory info out there, but I went for the evidence-based kind, not the mere assertion. It took a few years (my middle kids had one or two vaccines), but in the end, none of them were worth the harm.

You mean potential harm?

118 simonml  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:26:19pm

re: #108 clear vision

Vaccinations can't help with those -- and if you give them to children whose bodies are weak, you have even worse and more numerous side effects than you do in Western countries.

There is no evidence to support that statement.

119 mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:26:43pm

re: #107 clear vision

I believe Scarlet fever is a side effect of a strep infection. Some people get it some don't.

120 JacksonTn  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:26:56pm

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

clearvision ... that is one of the dumbest things I have ever read ...

121 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:26:59pm

re: #108 clear vision

I agree that in the third world diseases are terrible. That is because the nutrition and sanitation are so lacking. Vaccinations can't help with those -- and if you give them to children whose bodies are weak, you have even worse and more numerous side effects than you do in Western countries.

Here's the stats: Average US annual morbidity (deaths) from polio about 16,000.

How many children in the US get polio today?

Link:

[Link: www.cdc.gov...]

122 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:27:01pm

re: #113 Occasional Reader

Oh, now this is rich.

So not only are you claiming that vaccinations cause autism... you're also claiming that vaccines don't work?!

If I read this right those bugs were just getting their mellow on and "reduced" themselves.

123 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:27:39pm

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

I was trying to be nice, but... no you are insane. Scarlet fever didn't "go away" it, like influenza and diarrhea are still around, but because of better sanitation and medication, they generally don't kill or maim people in first world countries.

And yes there was a vaccination for it to:

"Husband and wife Gladys Henry Dick and George Frederick Dick developed a vaccine in the 1920s that was later eclipsed by penicillin in the 1940s. Other than the occurrence of the diarrhea, the treatment and course of scarlet fever are no different from those of any strep throat. In case of penicillin allergy, clindamycin or erythromycin can be used with success. Patients should no longer be infectious after taking antibiotics for 24 hours. Persons who have been exposed to scarlet fever should watch carefully for a full week for symptoms, especially if aged 3 to young adult. It's very important to be tested (throat culture) and if positive, seek treatment. For reasons unknown, toddlers rarely contract scarlet fever." (from the Wiki)

There was a vaccine developed for it. When antibiotics entered into widespread use, it was no longer necessary.

124 mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:27:57pm

re: #114 clear vision

Based on investigating the risks versus the benefits. There is a lot of contradictory info out there, but I went for the evidence-based kind, not the mere assertion. It took a few years (my middle kids had one or two vaccines), but in the end, none of them were worth the harm.

You are NuTz. Playing amateur scientist with your kid's well being at stake is worse than dumb.

125 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:28:10pm

re: #114 clear vision

but in the end, none of them were worth the harm.

Your kids have benefitted... so far... from herd immunity.

Good lord. How could anybody... never mind.

126 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:28:46pm

re: #100 BlueCanuck

Okay, why was he against them? Just saying he was against them isn't enough. What causes did he give for not vaccinating? Just don't stop there, give us some details or a small link.

I have to pull out my book of his columns -- don't want to misremember -- be right back.

127 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:28:48pm

re: #122 Aviator

If I read this right those bugs were just getting their mellow on and "reduced" themselves.

ANY disease has its ups and downs. The fact that fewer people died of influenza in 1925 than in 1918 just meant they had passed through an epidemic.

128 tom from pv  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:29:31pm

Nothing unexpected here. Obama's EPA tells us that CO2 is a pollutant and must be controlled like all poisons. Obviously, the politicians don't think the public is smart enough to remember their 5th grade science -- that all living things require CO2 all animals, including humans, exhale CO2 as part of life.

So why *should* Jim Kerrey think that govt scientists are any more accurate when they talk about vaccinations? In fact, the prudent citizen would discount ALL "scientific" claims that come from our govt, since the politicians are likely distorting it to suit their agendas.

Note that I'm NOT against vaccinating yourself or your children! I'm just saying that we've entered an era where the scientific method has been demeaned by our politicians as well as our journalism. And this kind of "kookery" should be expected to continue until such time as our society can find an honest broker of scientific news.

Therefore, in the same way that Obama and Democrats defining torture "down" will likely result in more attacks, so will our demeaning of science result in more epidemics. There is no easy way out here either.

129 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:29:32pm

re: #122 Aviator

If I read this right those bugs were just getting their mellow on and "reduced" themselves.

Sort of like the bubonic plague. See, once it spreads, and kills a large number of people, some of the survivors will have been exposed and developed immunity. Others will have a natural immunity. And the rest will be dead. Wah lah.

130 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:29:39pm

re: #127 EmmmieG

ANY disease has its ups and downs. The fact that fewer people died of influenza in 1925 than in 1918 just meant they had passed through an epidemic.

I think you misunderstand.

131 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:30:32pm

re: #114 clear vision

Based on investigating the risks versus the benefits. There is a lot of contradictory info out there, but I went for the evidence-based kind, not the mere assertion. It took a few years (my middle kids had one or two vaccines), but in the end, none of them were worth the harm.

With respect sir or ma'am, I cannot concur. I had a normal course of vaccinations and did not suffer any ill effects from them.

132 simonml  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:30:48pm

Vaccines save lives. To question that is beyond idiocy.

133 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:30:51pm

re: #114 clear vision

"Clear Vision?" Is that some kind of joke?

134 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:31:02pm

re: #130 Aviator

I think you misunderstand.

Sorry, I should have replied to the original post, not you.

135 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:31:24pm

re: #128 tom from pv

Tom, your post was all over the map. Try to stay on one subject, please.

136 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:31:36pm

re: #89 clear vision

Sorry, that's a bit like not wearing your seatbelts in a car out of an irrational fear that you'll be trapped inside if the car should happen to drive into a lake*.

If there are risks of adverse complications from vaccines, they are exceedingly rare by comparison to the benefits of not suffering preventable illnesses. At best these illnesses themselves have possible serious complications. At worst, they can, and often do kill.

(* As the Mythbusters showed, if you don't open your door almost immediately after a car gets into deep water, you'll have to wait until the car's interior fills with water before you'll be able to open the door, due to the pressure differential holding the door shut. That is, unless you have one of those escape hammers to break a window and equalize the pressure. Wearing seatbelts is the least of your problems in such a scenario, and the odds of actually being trapped by them is vastly less than the odds of serious injury if you're not wearing them in the much more frequent dry land collisions.)

137 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:32:53pm

re: #117 kansas

You mean potential harm?

No, I mean harm. Vaccinations have small amounts of really bad stuff -- mercury (even when not used as a preservative anymore -- and how many years of fighting that took! -- they use it in the manufacturing process) And it's a neurotoxin -- any amount is harmful). Some have aluminum (think Alzheimers), some have formaldehyde.

138 crosspatch  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:33:07pm

They kill their unborn, they fail to vaccinate their children ... sounds like a self-correcting problem in the long run. Eventually people who think like that will weed themselves right out of the gene pool.

139 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:33:34pm

re: #108 clear vision

I agree that in the third world diseases are terrible. That is because the nutrition and sanitation are so lacking. Vaccinations can't help with those -- and if you give them to children whose bodies are weak, you have even worse and more numerous side effects than you do in Western countries.

Prove it.

140 simonml  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:33:49pm

re: #114 clear vision

Based on investigating the risks versus the benefits. There is a lot of contradictory info out there, but I went for the evidence-based kind, not the mere assertion. It took a few years (my middle kids had one or two vaccines), but in the end, none of them were worth the harm.

All the evidence shows the efficacy of vaccinations in preventing disease and saving lives. The "contradictory info" you refer to is Jenny McCarthy types.

141 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:33:55pm

re: #136 Dar ul Harb

. That is, unless you have one of those escape hammers to break a window and equalize the pressure.

I have a Maglite for that purpose.

It's also nice to have on hand in case you're in a fender-bender with a car with questionable-looking types in it. Take it out to "inspect the damage"... tends to keep everyone polite.

142 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:34:07pm

re: #137 clear vision

No, I mean harm. Vaccinations have small amounts of really bad stuff -- mercury (even when not used as a preservative anymore -- and how many years of fighting that took! -- they use it in the manufacturing process) And it's a neurotoxin -- any amount is harmful). Some have aluminum (think Alzheimers), some have formaldehyde.

Where did you hear that Aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's disease?

143 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:35:18pm

re: #138 crosspatch

Unfortunately by reducing the herd immunity it actually increases the chance other people can contract diseases. So not immunizing your children will increase childhood illnesses if enough people stop getting their vaccinations.

144 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:35:49pm

re: #137 clear vision

Some have aluminum (think Alzheimers)

Um... nobody know what causes Alzheimers.

Oh, except you, of course.

145 simonml  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:35:56pm

re: #142 Dark_Falcon

Where did you hear that Aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's disease?

I think he means NOT LINKED TO ALZHEIMERS

146 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:36:43pm

re: #141 Occasional Reader

I have a Maglite for that purpose.

It's also nice to have on hand in case you're in a fender-bender with a car with questionable-looking types in it. Take it out to "inspect the damage"... tends to keep everyone polite.

I have a Maglite Mini LED. But you're evidently referring to the multi-"D" Cell truncheon/torch. Heh.

147 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:36:51pm

Must correct myself. There were 16,000 cases of polio annually in those years. The deaths were 1,890 average annually.

148 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:36:52pm

re: #137 clear vision

No, I mean harm. Vaccinations have small amounts of really bad stuff -- mercury (even when not used as a preservative anymore -- and how many years of fighting that took! -- they use it in the manufacturing process) And it's a neurotoxin -- any amount is harmful). Some have aluminum (think Alzheimers), some have formaldehyde.

Well first of all, "any amount" is not harmful. Think dilution. And as far as neurotoxins go, think botox. Used for some good things as well as completely moronic things. I did not know Alzheimer's was caused by Aluminum. My mom died from that in October. I just knew when she was munching on the foil in the cabinets we should have stopped her. Well, you have made up your mind. I'm not gonna change it.

149 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:37:11pm

I'm speechless at this. Put your own kids at risk for Ruebella, or anything else is mad. Y'all can argue, I'm done. I have seen this shit in person and not to vaccinate is crazy.

150 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:37:53pm

re: #114 clear vision

I'm not going to brow beat you.

I am a PA who has been working in orthopaedics for 20 years now. This also involves other areas of medicine.

Actually, I just had my TB test. I had this, because I am someone who not only comes in contact with numerous patients south of our border, but because I also do not want to spread a disease making a comeback which was nearly eradicated.

The disease you referenced, is a bacteria. Susceptible to antibiotics.

151 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:38:42pm

re: #142 Dark_Falcon

Where did you hear that Aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's disease?

From quacks. That aluminum alzheimer's thing has been going around awhile. I had friends in high school who's parents wouldn't let them drink anything in a aluminum can because "aluminum dust will give you alzheimers."

152 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:38:46pm

re: #137 clear vision

No, I mean harm. Vaccinations have small amounts of really bad stuff -- mercury (even when not used as a preservative anymore -- and how many years of fighting that took! -- they use it in the manufacturing process) And it's a neurotoxin -- any amount is harmful). Some have aluminum (think Alzheimers), some have formaldehyde.

Here, learn to fish.

PUbMed

153 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:38:47pm

re: #146 Dar ul Harb

I have a Maglite Mini LED. But you're evidently referring to the multi-"D" Cell truncheon/torch. Heh.

It's perfectly legal, officer!

154 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:38:47pm

I love Orac. His blog is my favorite anti-altie med site.

155 Gella  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:38:49pm

can i repeat myself one more time? i know its kind of harsh, but if you want to have ur kid to have SS# and US citizenship, you must vaccinate. Vaccines safe life, proven my reliable science. I am tired of crooks like JM and JC, on the other hand JC probably responded so he can bang JM.

156 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:39:06pm

re: #89 clear vision

I feel with you. When my dtr was born (80s) we were so paranoid that we had a home birth (Dr. attended) and only took her to a hospital to get state required blood tests done by nurses who were "in the loop" so to speak.

After much research and our own experiences (wife and I who had been vaccinated as kids) we decided to have her vaccinated. I don't regret it.

Other - she was breast fed and after some weeks did not soil her diaper. PANIC!

Drs. wanted to do all sorts of tests ... and possibly operate for a bowel obstruction.

We refused. My research went into hyperdrive as any caring parent would do.

More research and contact with an enlightened MD ... who informed me that when babies are breast fed and go thru a growth spurt they assimilate all that is fed - the result is "dust" in the diaper. That she would "poop" soon enough as she was in no visible discomfort.

Bless the medical community and their knowledge but there are those who are just after the buck - and feed on our fears.

Few "Modern" Doctors are no longer trained on natural birth and evolvement. Damn!

Vaccinate your kids!

157 alegrias  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:39:30pm

re: #138 crosspatch

They kill their unborn, they fail to vaccinate their children ... sounds like a self-correcting problem in the long run. Eventually people who think like that will weed themselves right out of the gene pool.

* * * * *
You have a point. Hypocritical and contradictory!

Will these same crazies bother (or CARE) to find out what their young daughters will be popping as over the counter Abortifacients, without prescription, medical supervision, or an ADULT's knowledge?

158 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:39:51pm

re: #146 Dar ul Harb

I have a Maglite Mini LED. But you're evidently referring to the multi-"D" Cell truncheon/torch. Heh.

Yeah, cops didn't start carrying those in the '70's because they were like, really good for lighting stuff up.

I used to sell a lot of Maglights back when they were a little more exotic to chemical tank inspectors. Great for highlighting cracks in storage tanks from a respectful distance.

159 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:40:09pm

re: #150 formercorpsman

No, I don't have TB.

Should have clarified that in the post.

160 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:40:32pm

re: #100 BlueCanuck

Okay, why was he against them? Just saying he was against them isn't enough. What causes did he give for not vaccinating? Just don't stop there, give us some details or a small link.

He was against them because he saw that many children are harmed by them and because he saw that the incidence of disease was low in America due to nutrition and sanitation. He also noted that we are induced to fear diseases like measles now that there are vaccines to 'rescue' us. He describes the difference between what was written in the medical books on measles earlier in the last century (mild disease, etc), to later (dangers of death, etc.).

161 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:40:44pm

re: #153 Occasional Reader

It's perfectly legal, officer!

But I should point out that Maglites are MADE OF ALUMINUM! ! ! !

162 mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:41:06pm

re: #128 tom from pv

Nothing unexpected here. Obama's EPA tells us that CO2 is a pollutant and must be controlled like all poisons. Obviously, the politicians don't think the public is smart enough to remember their 5th grade science -- that all living things require CO2 all animals, including humans, exhale CO2 as part of life.

How about companies that have to incinerate exhaust fumes from industrial processes to destruct the VOC's in order to comply with air quality permits. We burn millions of cubic meters of natural gas every year to eliminate fumes. But if CO2 is so bad, then we're just trading one poison for another. The worst part is the permits are written with conflicting requirements that needlessly add waste but no one dare complain about their permit!

163 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:01pm

re: #155 Gella

can i repeat myself one more time? i know its kind of harsh, but if you want to have ur kid to have SS# and US citizenship, you must vaccinate. Vaccines safe life, proven my reliable science. I am tired of crooks like JM and JC, on the other hand JC probably responded so he can bang JM.

Men have done dumber things than that to bed beautiful women. He's probably still astonished she'd give him the time of day, since she'd normally be way out of his league.

164 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:11pm

re: #158 OldLineTexan

Yeah, cops didn't start carrying those in the '70's because they were like, really good for lighting stuff up.

I used to sell a lot of Maglights back when they were a little more exotic to chemical tank inspectors. Great for highlighting cracks in storage tanks from a respectful distance.

As actual, you know, flashlights, they've been blown away by Surefire and their ilk.

As "legal carry" emergency bludgeons, however, they still can't be beat.

165 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:13pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

But I should point out that Maglites are MADE OF ALUMINUM! ! ! !

I looked at a mercury vapor lamp once! OH MY GOD!

166 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:15pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

But I should point out that Maglites are MADE OF ALUMINUM! ! ! !

So, they're recyclable! ;)

167 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:25pm

re: #149 pingjockey

I'm speechless at this. Put your own kids at risk for Ruebella, or anything else is mad. Y'all can argue, I'm done. I have seen this shit in person and not to vaccinate is crazy.

Clear vision puts all of our children at risk and in harms way..
Everyone knows there is a very very small risk of side effects...But we all share whatever side effects and exposure for the good of all of us..We do this for the good of the human race. And not to do some is selfish and stupid..
I hope your kids never travel and get exposed to something.. You put them at risk.

168 yesandno  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:27pm

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

There is no vaccination for stupidity..sucks to be you.

169 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:34pm

re: #160 clear vision

What harm? Just saying that they were harmful isn't enough. Yes proper nutrition plays a role, along with a lot of other factors.

170 kansas  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:39pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

But I should point out that Maglites are MADE OF ALUMINUM! ! ! !

I am going to make it a point of not snacking on my Maglite. Thanks for the tip.

171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:42:42pm

MY TURN!

"Teeny, tiny baby coffins..."
-Gregory House

172 OldLineTexan  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:43:19pm

re: #163 Dark_Falcon

Men have done dumber things than that to bed beautiful women. He's probably still astonished she'd give him the time of day, since she'd normally be way out of his league.

Uh, he has a really big WALLET.

/and he was funny until he started playing doctor

173 crosspatch  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:43:33pm

re: #143 BlueCanuck

I am aware of that. It will increase the chances that other non-immunized people will get sick. We are already seeing idiots refusing to vaccinate against polio, for example. Like I said, self-correcting problem, really. People who don't immunize could well get their own kids and the kids of other people who don't immunize very ill. But they aren't thinking about anyone else, it is all about them. They don't care what impact their selfishness could have on others, they are only interested in themselves.

When their kids get sick, they should be jailed for child abuse.

174 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:44:10pm

I'm getting really tired of people just talking out their asses, especially when there are real world consequences.

175 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:44:12pm

re: #140 simonml

All the evidence shows the efficacy of vaccinations in preventing disease and saving lives. The "contradictory info" you refer to is Jenny McCarthy types.

I disagree, respectfully. The CDC had arguments that insulted my intelligence. When it said that we didn't have to worry about getting multiple vaccines in one day for a small child (that have multiple antigens in them) because everyone is exposed to about 10,000 antigens a day -- I lost all respect for them.

They were talking about antigens that land on our skin, that we breathe in our noses, that we eat -- all these are NOT THE SAME as injecting them into our bloodstreams, bypassing all the mechanisms our body has to deal with them!

The sources I found by scientists who are against vaccines are much more convincing.

176 MJ  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:44:27pm

re: #89 clear vision

This is hard. I have so much respect for Charles, and lizardom, and therefore feel serious pain from all the scorn poured out here. But I have looked into this issue for about 20 years now (since my first baby was born), and based on facts and real science, have completely rejected all vaccinations for my three youngest children.

The late, great, Dr. Robert S. Mendelsohn, Chairman of the Medical Licensing Committee for Illinois, and professor at the Medical School of the University of Illinois, among other accomplishments, was against vaccinations. He was ahead of his time in many medical areas.

One book he wrote was called Malepractice, questioning many accepted practices in the 70's that were bad for women -- the wholescale prescription of Valium for women, the humiliating and dangerous and unnecessary interventions in childbirth, the huge number of unnecessary hysterectomies.

He didn't reject vaccinations for emotional reasons. He analyzed the problem, and presented evidence.

There are many other scientists who have also analyzed evidence, and have criticized the epidemiological studies analytically -- this is really not the equivalent of Flat Earth believers, guys.

Am happy to respectfully discuss with anyone -- though I haven't been through the evidence much lately --

A Few Notes on Robert Mendelsohn, M.D.

Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D. (1926-1988) engaged in irresponsible criticism of the medical profession and science-based health care during most of his medical career. Although he had taught at several medical schools and been chairman of the Illinois state licensing board, Mendelsohn considered himself a "medical heretic." He opposed water fluoridation, immunization, coronary bypass surgery, licensing of nutritionists, and screening examinations to detect breast cancer. One of his books charged that "Modern Medicine's treatments for disease are seldom effective, and they're often more dangerous than the diseases they're designed to treat"; that "around ninety percent of surgery is a waste of time, energy, money and life"; and that most hospitals are so loosely run that "murder is even a clear and present danger..."

[Link: www.quackwatch.com...]

177 eddiespaghetti  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:44:36pm

Jenny and Jim Kerry and their ilk should have their children banned from public school, end of discussion. This is dangerous moon-battery gone wild. Herd immunization is key if you want to send your kid to public school. I don't wish polio on anyone, but it may take this act to kick these jack-asses of the to the curb with their patently wrong position.

Cure autism, what a F-ing joke.

178 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:44:49pm

Later folks, good luck.

179 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:44:50pm

re: #169 BlueCanuck

There is a very strong lure which exists, for many people who think all of these problems are a supplement fix.

Billion dollar industry.

180 crosspatch  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:45:03pm

Scarlet fever is a strep infection. It is treated with antibiotics. They didn't have antibiotics when Engels and Keller were young.

181 jaunte  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:45:24pm

re: #175 clear vision

The sources I found by scientists who are against vaccines are much more convincing.

Can you provide some links to those sources?

182 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:45:51pm

re: #160 clear vision

He was against them because he saw that many children are harmed by them and because he saw that the incidence of disease was low in America due to nutrition and sanitation. He also noted that we are induced to fear diseases like measles now that there are vaccines to 'rescue' us. He describes the difference between what was written in the medical books on measles earlier in the last century (mild disease, etc), to later (dangers of death, etc.).

OK, now I'm getting suspicious. The person you are citing sounds like a Troofer, spinning a conspiracy theory.

183 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:46:00pm

re: #161 Occasional Reader

But I should point out that Maglites are MADE OF ALUMINUM! ! ! !

Yeah whack somebody in the head a few times they start acting confused. See, aluminum must cause alzheimer's.

184 calcajun  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:46:22pm

re: #142 Dark_Falcon

Aluminum is linked to Alzheimer's?

What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?//

185 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:46:34pm

re: #176 MJ

So what your saying is that the late Dr. Mendelsohn was a great jackass. Figures.

186 Gella  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:46:47pm

re: #172 OldLineTexan

Uh, he has a really big WALLET.

/and he was funny until he started playing doctor

and she has HUGE flotation devices, mach made in anti-vaccination heaven
////

187 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:46:51pm

The sometimes bizarre calibration of humanity's risk vs. reward calculations is an evolutionary adaptation that has enabled some of us to do crazy things that lead to societal progress, and driven others of us to become impotent neurotics.

Discuss.

188 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:47:26pm

re: #176 MJ

No, no, no.

CABG, don't do that.

That is not even my field, and I am in amazed at what those cardio-thoracic folks can do.

Totally revolutionary stuff.

189 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:47:34pm

re: #175 clear vision

The sources I found by scientists quacks, pseudo-scientists, and conspiracy-theorists who hate "big pharma" who are against vaccines are much more convincing in lockstep with my willful ignorance.

FTFY

190 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:47:43pm

re: #181 jaunte

Don't count on it. He hasn't provided a single one at all. Therefore it has proven it's trollishness.

191 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:48:03pm
Some have aluminum (think Alzheimers)

Gah! That many who wear hats made from aluminum foil eventually succumb to dementia is not causality.

I am neither patient enough, nor sober enough, to put up with this crap right now. I am outta here, gotta tri-tip to 'que anyway.

Seriously...

192 jaunte  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:48:57pm

re: #190 BlueCanuck

"We can't handle the Troof!"
/

193 MJ  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:49:17pm

re: #188 formercorpsman

No, no, no.

CABG, don't do that.

That is not even my field, and I am in amazed at what those cardio-thoracic folks can do.

Totally revolutionary stuff.

Tell me about it. I had one done over 13 years ago...

194 Mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:49:53pm

re: #174 ArchangelMichael

I'm getting really tired of people just talking out their asses, especially when there are real world consequences.

Some people seem to have a disorder where they have a need to flaunt their "private knowledge". And the best way to have private knowledge is to make it up yourself or pimp conspiracy theories.

195 MJ  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:50:12pm

By the way, Quackwatch is a terrific site:

[Link: www.quackwatch.com...]

196 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:51:57pm

re: #169 BlueCanuck

What harm? Just saying that they were harmful isn't enough. Yes proper nutrition plays a role, along with a lot of other factors.

Good question. There is a system (voluntary, so it doesn't get a very high percentage of the actual events) called VAERS that tracks damage from vaccines. Deaths, seizures that lead to permanent damage, many others.

If you want epidemiological evidence, look at the rise of ADHD, autism, asthma, and other chronic, serious problems that correlates with the rise in the number and frequency of vaccinations for children.

197 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:53:50pm

I'd hate to have polio.

Just saying.

Little blurb from a little scientific journal, called "Wikipedia"...

The polio vaccines developed by Jonas Salk in 1952 and Albert Sabin in 1962 are credited with reducing the global number of polio cases per year from many hundreds of thousands to around a thousand.[7] Enhanced vaccination efforts led by the World Health Organization, UNICEF and Rotary International could result in global eradication of the disease.

198 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:53:54pm

re: #176 MJ

A Few Notes on Robert Mendelsohn, M.D.

Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D. (1926-1988) engaged in irresponsible criticism of the medical profession and science-based health care during most of his medical career. Although he had taught at several medical schools and been chairman of the Illinois state licensing board, Mendelsohn considered himself a "medical heretic." He opposed water fluoridation, immunization, coronary bypass surgery, licensing of nutritionists, and screening examinations to detect breast cancer. One of his books charged that "Modern Medicine's treatments for disease are seldom effective, and they're often more dangerous than the diseases they're designed to treat"; that "around ninety percent of surgery is a waste of time, energy, money and life"; and that most hospitals are so loosely run that "murder is even a clear and present danger..."

[Link: www.quackwatch.com...]

The part about his criticism being irresponsible is assertion. He backed up with evidence the items he opposed.

199 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:54:26pm

re: #187 Dar ul Harb

For example, driving a car is one of the most dangerous common activities, yet people don't often appreciate the risk, just because it is common (and auto deaths are largely unreported as news).

People who don't fly very often probably have a different perception of the risk of air travel than those who do (and deaths in aviation accidents are almost always reported, precisely because they're rare).

Then there's the lottery...

200 MJ  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:54:58pm

re: #196 clear vision

Good question. There is a system (voluntary, so it doesn't get a very high percentage of the actual events) called VAERS that tracks damage from vaccines. Deaths, seizures that lead to permanent damage, many others.

If you want epidemiological evidence, look at the rise of ADHD, autism, asthma, and other chronic, serious problems that correlates with the rise in the number and frequency of vaccinations for children.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Correlation does not imply causation

201 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:55:05pm

re: #196 clear vision

Good question. There is a system (voluntary, so it doesn't get a very high percentage of the actual events) called VAERS that tracks damage from vaccines. Deaths, seizures that lead to permanent damage, many others.

If you want epidemiological evidence, look at the rise of ADHD, autism, asthma, and other chronic, serious problems that correlates with the rise in the number and frequency of vaccinations for children.

You might want to get in touch with those quacks at the CDC and point out all that "epidemiolgical evidence" they missed.

202 Mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:55:25pm

re: #196 clear vision

If you want epidemiological evidence, look at the rise of ADHD, autism, asthma, and other chronic, serious problems that correlates with the rise in the number and frequency of vaccinations for children.

How do you know its not due to other environmental or genetic factors or a combination of them? Why do you call a direct correlation when there are hundreds of other environmental and genetic factors that could be playing a role.

203 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:55:44pm

re: #193 MJ

I am in awe of it.

Literally, just 35 years ago the mortality of that disease was overwhelming. Now, chest pain=cath=medicated stents=life.

It really blows my mind.

204 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:55:49pm

re: #184 calcajun

What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?//

I dunno. I was just questioning clear vision's source. I hadn't heard that claim before. Suffice to say, other posters have convinced me that the claim she made was in error.re: #196 clear vision

Good question. There is a system (voluntary, so it doesn't get a very high percentage of the actual events) called VAERS that tracks damage from vaccines. Deaths, seizures that lead to permanent damage, many others.

If you want epidemiological evidence, look at the rise of ADHD, autism, asthma, and other chronic, serious problems that correlates with the rise in the number and frequency of vaccinations for children.

I think you are in error here. ADHD, for example, was not recognized as a medical condition prior to widespread vaccination. The rise is asthma might also be attributed to the number of children who can live with it now, but would have died young a century ago. You need to be more specific in your responses if you hope to make any headway.

205 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:55:57pm

re: #196 clear vision

206 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:56:07pm

re: #197 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd hate to have polio.

Just saying.

Little blurb from a little scientific journal, called "Wikipedia"...

I'd hate to have polio, too.

The only live cases of polio in the US for about 25 years were exclusively from the live polio vaccine.


Dr. Mendelsohn said that Sabin said the Salk's dead vaccine didn't work, and that Salk said that Sabin's live vaccine was too dangerous, and that he agreed with both of them. :-)

207 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:56:50pm
208 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:57:19pm

re: #198 clear vision

Ok, seriously. Defend being against coronary bypass surgery.

I am serious. Give a rationale answer.

It is a fair question.

209 Gella  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:58:06pm

re: #202 Mich-again

How do you know its not due to other environmental or genetic factors or a combination of them? Why do you call a direct correlation when there are hundreds of other environmental and genetic factors that could be playing a role.

well actually asma starts with chronic allergy, in some cases its developed because of genetic and/or environmental factors

210 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:58:41pm

re: #200 MJ

cum hoc ergo propter hoc
Correlation does not imply causation

Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it can raise a good issue.

Most people here seem to think that the correlation of vaccines given and diseases reduced prove causation.

More evaluation based on evidence is needed to come to a conclusion in both cases.

211 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:59:08pm

My God.

One thing these "activists" don't seem to understand is that there has been no rise in the incidence of autism - just a rise in diagnoses. It is a notoriously hard-to-understand condition with a wide spectrum of presentations, some of which mimic other syndromes to a T. Everything from severe mental retardation to eccentric genius.

My brother has a mild case of Asperger's, a syndrome on the autism spectrum. It manifests in severe social anxiety, not being able to look people in the eye, etc. He's found a life for himself as a librarian - in the cataloging department, where he doesn't have to meet the public. He's a success. In the past, he would have been called morbidly shy or just weird. Now it's Asperger's.

Time was, people were labeled with blanket terms like idiot, moron, feeble-minded, imbecile, all used as if they had any scientific meaning; now we have a broader palette of terms and a better understanding of the differences. Causes? Ask a neurologist to explain something as simple as differing types of cognition.

And yet Yes Man Truman and his ditz of a wife think they know the answers. They're like creationists without even an entertaining book to guide them.

212 calcajun  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:59:11pm

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

My wife wanted to throw all the aluminum cookware away a few years back. I humored her and we got some nice stainless.

Let's face it--we are going to die one day. There's no stopping it.

213 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:59:15pm

re: #196 clear vision


If you want epidemiological evidence, look at the rise of ADHD, autism, asthma, and other chronic, serious problems that correlates with the rise in the number and frequency of vaccinations for childrenof rock n' roll music.

(see where I'm going here?)

214 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 7:59:31pm

re: #208 formercorpsman

Ok, seriously. Defend being against coronary bypass surgery.

I am serious. Give a rationale answer.

It is a fair question.

I haven't researched that, but I bet that there is little increase in life expectancy -- and you've gone through major surgery.

215 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:00:10pm

re: #211 Cato the Elder

"just a rise in diagnoses"

Precisely.

216 eddiespaghetti  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:00:36pm

I have all immunizations, plus Anthrax (which hurt) and new round of smalpox (died in 72, I believe). Its called herd immunization, believe it!

217 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:01:28pm

re: #207 Iron Fist

Wasn't there something that we are all at risk - our immunity had worn off since being vaccinated 40-50 years ago?

218 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:01:30pm

re: #214 clear vision

Your out of your mind.

Did you not just see someone answer here they had it done more than 10 years ago?

More than a decade.

Not a good enough answer.

You are wading in too deep.

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:01:58pm

re: #206 clear vision

Interesting... was it more polio than the previous 25 years or less. Don't know which you are speaking of.

I am sure you are more well versed in this than I am, which is great, I'm real proud of you. You seem to study it pretty heavily. I don't study the subject. I base my actions on what I see respected medical people do with their children.

I have several Physician friends with children. All of their children are immunized. Good enough for me.

Have fun arguing the subject. You will get no resistance from me.

220 Mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:02:02pm
If you want epidemiological evidence, look at the rise of ADHD, autism, asthma, and other chronic, serious problems that correlates with the rise in the number and frequency of vaccinations for children hot pockets.

Thats my theory. /

221 crosspatch  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:02:09pm

The number of reported cases of autism is up but there is no evidence that the actual incidence of it is any higher than in the past. We are better educated about it and spot it more often now.

But correlation doesn't meal causation. The rise in autism probably tracks well with the incidence of pot smoking by pregnant women, too. Also, if if vaccinations were a cause, why would autism diagnoses continue to rise when the portion of the population that is vaccinated declines?

And just because a large number of people "believe in" the linkage with vaccines, it doesn't make it so. Fifty percent of the population is, by definition, below the median intelligence level but very few believe they fall on the left side of that curve.

222 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:02:10pm

re: #128 tom from pv

So why *should* Jim Kerrey think that govt scientists are any more accurate when they talk about vaccinations?

I don't believe all scientists are employed by government.

223 Gella  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:02:49pm

re: #211 Cato the Elder

its more over diagnosis, so more medication is used,some of new diseases are not even diagnosed properly or over diagnosed
when i was a kid we had no mild cases of ADD or ADHD

224 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:02:55pm

re: #216 eddiespaghetti

I have been injected with most everything one could be.

Right before GW1, we were being inoculated like crazy.

225 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:04:04pm
226 Bob Dillon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:04:26pm

re: #217 Bobibutu

Ah - here it is ...

[Link: www.scienceblog.com...]

227 Mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:04:30pm

re: #221 crosspatch

And just because a large number of people "believe in" the linkage with vaccines, it doesn't make it so.

Is anything stupider than an opinion poll of whether or not people believe in science. Who cares?

228 Gella  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:04:42pm

i had anti tuberculosis vaccination, so every time i get tested for that, i get positive results and then goes long explanation that i am ok and i dont need another R-xay

229 MJ  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:06:34pm

re: #210 clear vision

Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it can raise a good issue.

Most people here seem to think that the correlation of vaccines given and diseases reduced prove causation.

More evaluation based on evidence is needed to come to a conclusion in both cases.

You're engaging in what philosophers call "causal oversimplification".

As for the good, late Robert S. Mendelsohn, he engaged in what is termed
as the Golden Age Fallacy or the Nostalgia fallacy. Where the solution to a particular problem is asserted as a return to the assumed social values or worldview of an earlier "Golden Age"; when said problem is deemed not to have existed, or was less significant than in the present time (and which is typically a historically incorrect assertion).

Of course, you're engaging in the same argument as well.

230 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:07:10pm

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

Scarlet fever is caused by strep, which is now treated with antibiotics.

If you treat strep throat, you don't allow scarlet fever to develop.

This is breathtaking medical ignorance, and if that is one of the reasons you don't vaccinate against tetanus and measles, you really have been duped.

231 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:08:04pm

My major point in this is, even if vaccines have rare but serious side effects, so do many medications, and more importantly for the discussion, the diseases that these vaccines prevent hold a far greater risk of injury and death.

That point is inarguable.

For the general case, vaccines save lives and prevent needless injury and suffering. One may try to argue that once the incidence of disease reaches a certain low level, the potential for adverse side effects becomes more significant in the risk/benefit calculation, simply because the odds of catching the disease have been greatly reduced, while the odds of experiencing an adverse complication remains essentially constant for a particular individual. But the fact remains, the risks of the disease almost always would outweigh the risks of complications, even if both risks are slight.

232 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:09:39pm

re: #225 Iron Fist

Have you seen these? There are a couple of different makes of them out there. I've long advocated carrying a sharp pen as an improvised weapon, especially for female students. I daresay you could carry one of these even onto planes and shit without there being anything said to you.

Interesting.

Actually, I remember asking you about something like that a few years back... for my business trips to some of my more interesting destinations.

233 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:09:55pm

re: #194 Mich-again

Some people seem to have a disorder where they have a need to flaunt their "private knowledge". And the best way to have private knowledge is to make it up yourself or pimp conspiracy theories.

re: #218 formercorpsman

Your out of your mind.

Did you not just see someone answer here they had it done more than 10 years ago?

I was speculating, as I said. I try to keep in my mind. :-) But I have a quote here from Dr. M. that may help. (Keep in mind that his is from 1979)

...A seven-year study by the Veterans Administration of more than 1,000 people found that except for high-risk patients with rare left-main artery disease, the coronary bypass provided no benefit. Mortality rates for surgery patients were not significantly different from those medically treated. In fact, among the low-risk patients, the mortality rates after four years were slightly higher among those receiving the operation. Other studies have shown that people who have coronary bypass surgery still show abnormalities on exercise EKG test and that they have no less risk of suffering a heart attack than those who are treated nonsurgically...

He goes on to say that the most effective treatment seems to be nutritional. Ahead of his time.
More than a decade.

234 eddiespaghetti  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:10:13pm

Anti-vaccination folks are emotionally based, idiotic groupthinkers with no basis in science! Anecdotes, with no supporting data. A simple risk/reward analysis would utterly prove you are an idiot if you do not vaccinate. Or live in the woods with no contact to the population.

235 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:10:55pm

re: #223 Gella

its more over diagnosis, so more medication is used,some of new diseases are not even diagnosed properly or over diagnosed
when i was a kid we had no mild cases of ADD or ADHD

When you were a kid we didn't know half what we know now.

I'm not saying there aren't some false diagnoses or needless prescriptions, but come on - if you think "back in the day" things were better because they couldn't tell the difference between mental retardation and a learning disability, you're part of the problem.

236 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:11:26pm

re: #210 clear vision

Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it can raise a good issue.

Most people here seem to think that the correlation of vaccines given and diseases reduced prove causation.

More evaluation based on evidence is needed to come to a conclusion in both cases.

The science is simple. Vaccinations, which are derad disease phages or relevant parts of them, cause the human body to produce antibodies to the diseases they vaccinate against, without causing the diseases themselves. And the presence of these vaccine-caused antibodies prevent the vaccinated person from subsequently contracting the diseases against which they were vaccinated.

237 jaunte  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:11:30pm

re: #234 eddiespaghetti

Or live in the woods with no contact to the population.

Unfortunately, not likely.

238 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:11:35pm

re: #211 Cato the Elder


My brother has a mild case of Asperger's, a syndrome on the autism spectrum. It manifests in severe social anxiety, not being able to look people in the eye, etc. He's found a life for himself as a librarian - in the cataloging department, where he doesn't have to meet the public. He's a success. In the past, he would have been called morbidly shy or just weird. Now it's Asperger's.

I feel your bro's pain. :)

I would never blame my Asperger's on vaccines, or my younger brother's case, either. He was showing symptoms well before he got any shots, for starters.

The Israelis did a study a couple of years ago which suggested a link between children's autistic spectrum disorders and the age of the children's father - something like a six-fold increase in ASD prevalence as the father's age went past 50.

I do think there may be an environmental chemistry factor. I'm thinking of all those boomer kids and their drug use, and studies of declining sperm counts in the industrialized world which may be related to hormone-like chemicals in plastics, and things like that... If researchers laid out some hard science which showed a link between womb chemistry and ASD's in kids, I wouldn't be surprised. But I wouldn't pin down any one thing and launch a crusade.

If I thought America had a future, I'd say that this new century should be the century of biology and genetics, and unraveling the mysteries of the brain, but I don't know if we'll still be here in thirty years, so... C'est la vie, and all that.

In the meantime I stay shut in, work at home, and laugh at fools like Ace Ventura over the internets.

239 Gella  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:12:33pm

re: #235 Cato the Elder

When you were a kid we didn't know half what we know now.

I'm not saying there aren't some false diagnoses or needless prescriptions, but come on - if you think "back in the day" things were better because they couldn't tell the difference between mental retardation and a learning disability, you're part of the problem.

well actually in my school if 5-7 years old couldn't sit for 45min to 1 hour still, it was because he/she is just a kid

240 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:13:13pm

re: #233 clear vision

He goes on to say that the most effective treatment seems to be nutritional. Ahead of his time.

Now the "diet cures everything" nutbars are coming out of the woodwork.

241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:13:22pm

This is pretty frustrating.

G'night folks!

242 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:14:47pm

re: #233 clear vision

I hope that you and your children never get sick. From the sounds of things you don't trust "modern" medicine one iota. I have seen all sorts of diseases and illnesses in my immediate family, extended family, and friends lives. A lot of them have had their life extended significantly with all sorts of medical procedures. I just hope that no one is harmed by your ignorance and support of quackery.

243 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:15:07pm
244 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:15:13pm

re: #137 clear vision

No, I mean harm. Vaccinations have small amounts of really bad stuff -- mercury (even when not used as a preservative anymore -- and how many years of fighting that took! -- they use it in the manufacturing process) And it's a neurotoxin -- any amount is harmful). Some have aluminum (think Alzheimers), some have formaldehyde.

I don't wish to be contrary but both of my kids were vaccinated with no ill effects other than being a little cranky afterwards. On my 4-year-old's most recent visit to the pediatrician three months ago he had to get 4 shots (two at at time in the thighs) and he's as bright as ever.

I would never, ever think about not vaccinating my children.

I don't know if this pertains to vaccines but in 2001 while living in NYC I had to take my wife to the emergency room (St. Vincent's in Manhattan--I don't recommend that place for my worst enemy!) in the middle of the night and had to bring our then 9 month old daughter. After my wife finally got to enter the treatment area, I started to accompany her with our daughter sleeping in her carseat but was told that I could not bring the kid in since there were several tuberculosis cases beyond the doors. The nurse apologized and said they had people from third world countries all the time and unfortunately, TB was not uncommon. Excuse my ignorance on this (TB) as it may not be relative to vaccines but it seems that when you start dismissing vaccination you open up a whole world of diseases to make a comeback.

245 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:15:55pm

Night FBV. I think I may have to go searching for where I put my clue by four.

246 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:17:43pm

re: #242 BlueCanuck

I just hope that no one is harmed by your ignorance and support of quackery.

These determinedly ignorant people are already causing harm. Diseases once thought eradicated are now on the rise again, and the anti-vaxers bear some of the blame.

247 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:19:15pm

re: #244 Sleepyone

I don't wish to be contrary but both of my kids were vaccinated with no ill effects other than being a little cranky afterwards. On my 4-year-old's most recent visit to the pediatrician three months ago he had to get 4 shots (two at at time in the thighs) and he's as bright as ever.

I would never, ever think about not vaccinating my children.

I don't know if this pertains to vaccines but in 2001 while living in NYC I had to take my wife to the emergency room (St. Vincent's in Manhattan--I don't recommend that place for my worst enemy!) in the middle of the night and had to bring our then 9 month old daughter. After my wife finally got to enter the treatment area, I started to accompany her with our daughter sleeping in her carseat but was told that I could not bring the kid in since there were several tuberculosis cases beyond the doors. The nurse apologized and said they had people from third world countries all the time and unfortunately, TB was not uncommon. Excuse my ignorance on this (TB) as it may not be relative to vaccines but it seems that when you start dismissing vaccination you open up a whole world of diseases to make a comeback.

On second thought, I guess I am being contrary!

248 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:19:35pm

re: #236 Salamantis

The science is simple. Vaccinations, which are derad disease phages or relevant parts of them, cause the human body to produce antibodies to the diseases they vaccinate against, without causing the diseases themselves. And the presence of these vaccine-caused antibodies prevent the vaccinated person from subsequently contracting the diseases against which they were vaccinated.

But the body is more complicated than that. People with full numbers of antibodies can still contract the disease. People with NO antibodies to a disease can take care of a family member with that disease for weeks and not get sick.

Then there is the auto immunity problem that can kick in when you artificially prime the immune system with vaccinations.

249 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:20:50pm

re: #233 clear vision

I deal with patients directly. Day in, and day out. We replace joints every Wednesday.

I can tell you, that patient population has increased life expectancy dramatically. I have many, many patients who are approaching 10 years after a serious cardiac event, had treatment, and are still alive.

I know this because we require cardiac clearance for the surgery. The advancements have become so good, the incidence of recidivism procedures are also down.

What you are reading, and citing is not reality.

250 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:21:05pm

re: #244 Sleepyone

I don't wish to be contrary but both of my kids were vaccinated with no ill effects other than being a little cranky afterwards. On my 4-year-old's most recent visit to the pediatrician three months ago he had to get 4 shots (two at at time in the thighs) and he's as bright as ever.

I would never, ever think about not vaccinating my children.

I don't know if this pertains to vaccines but in 2001 while living in NYC I had to take my wife to the emergency room (St. Vincent's in Manhattan--I don't recommend that place for my worst enemy!) in the middle of the night and had to bring our then 9 month old daughter. After my wife finally got to enter the treatment area, I started to accompany her with our daughter sleeping in her carseat but was told that I could not bring the kid in since there were several tuberculosis cases beyond the doors. The nurse apologized and said they had people from third world countries all the time and unfortunately, TB was not uncommon. Excuse my ignorance on this (TB) as it may not be relative to vaccines but it seems that when you start dismissing vaccination you open up a whole world of diseases to make a comeback.

Oh, it's relevant all right! These anti-vaccine people are helping create a resurgence in deadly diseases that a simple injection can prevent.

I'm waiting to see what happens the first time a celeb's kid ends up dying from a disease that a simple inoculation could have prevented.

251 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:21:41pm

re: #236 Salamantis

Immunology.
Learn it.
Love it.
Live it.

Speaking of which, have y'all heard of the "hygiene hypothesis"?

(Basically, the super-clean germ-phobic environment we have created for ourselves, and for our children particularly, results in our immune systems developing all kinds of allergic reactions that we wouldn't otherwise have.)

252 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:22:03pm

Vaccines against a disease work for the same reason that one cannot contract many of the same diseases twice - antibodies. The antibodies that are produced fighting off the initial infection prevent its recurrence. Vaccines cause the body to produce these antibodies without having to undergo the rigors of the disease. Thus obtaining one's antibodies via vaccination is safer than obtaining them via infection.

The only reason that people can catch colds and flu multiple times (and flu vaccines change year to year) is because there are multiple strains of them, that continue to mutate their way around past antibody immunities.

This is not the case for measles, mumps, chicken pox, smallpox, polio, and many other dread diseases which do NOT so rapidly mutate; one infection survival, or one vaccination, immunizes you for a long, long time, and in most cases, permanently.

253 razorbacker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:22:15pm

A main difficulty with talking to folks dead set against vaccinations is that you can't point to a person and say with absolute certainty that, "Vaccination prevented razorbacker from getting disease X."

If someone is harmed by a vaccine, you can point at that person and say, "The vaccine made razorbacker suffer from disease X."

People tend to believe that which they can see, touch, smell, taste, and hear. The ability to believe that which they cannot detect with their senses helps give rise to stuff like anti-vaccination groups.

Those groups pose a danger to the population as a whole.

254 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:22:29pm
255 Gella  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:22:38pm

re: #250 Cato the Elder

Oh, it's relevant all right! These anti-vaccine people are helping create a resurgence in deadly diseases that a simple injection can prevent.

I'm waiting to see what happens the first time a celeb's kid ends up dying from a disease that a simple inoculation could have prevented.

hey they will say that vitamins would work better in that case then standard medicine
//////

256 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:23:04pm

re: #248 clear vision

People with NO antibodies to a disease can take care of a family member with that disease for weeks and not get sick.


Yeah, usually because that family member will have a strong immune system. Just like the time I was quarantined with my siblings because of mumps. I never came down with any symptoms, fever, etc.. That doesn't mean some one can not benefit from a vaccine.

Then there is the auto immunity problem that can kick in when you artificially prime the immune system with vaccinations.

And that sounds like another red herring and form of quackery. Any such incident is a rare one.

257 eddiespaghetti  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:23:06pm

re: #233 clear vision

Ever met a person afflicted with Polio? I had a Grandmother with it, she suffered her whole life. How bad would you feel if you siblings were afflicted because of advice from the Jenny crowd? (think about that, the jenny-f-ing Mcarthy crowd). I would never forgive myself..

That was not meant as being mean, I'm just saying I could not live with myself.

258 Mich-again  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:24:02pm

re: #248 clear vision

But the body is more complicated than that. People with full numbers of antibodies can still contract the disease. People with NO antibodies to a disease can take care of a family member with that disease for weeks and not get sick.

Then there is the auto immunity problem that can kick in when you artificially prime the immune system with vaccinations.

The same logic says that you shouldn't wear a seat belt when you drive a car. There is an infinitesimal chance the seat belt will do more harm than good. You can't rule by the exception.

259 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:26:05pm

re: #248 clear vision

But the body is more complicated than that. People with full numbers of antibodies can still contract the disease. People with NO antibodies to a disease can take care of a family member with that disease for weeks and not get sick.

Nope. If someone's body contains enough antibodies to repel an infection, their body contains enough antibodies to prevent a subsequent infection. And sometimes people can avoid infection from others simply through hygiene or luck.

Then there is the auto immunity problem that can kick in when you artificially prime the immune system with vaccinations.

Autoimmune deficiency is a LACK of antibody protection, not a surfeit of it. For instance, AIDS is a disease that suppresses the autoimmune response to other phages, allowing opportunistic infections to occur where they would not have otherwise.

260 razorbacker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:26:57pm

re: #253 razorbacker

*sigh* inability

261 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:27:04pm

Folks, I could go on forever with the morons I deal with every week.

This is more than a cottage industry. While I think it is an excellent idea to be proactive with your own health, it crosses the line when you begin to think you know more than someone who has gone through many, many years of school & become board certified.

Let alone, just the on the job training factor alone that comes with it.

I think the root cause of why so many people are drawn to this, has to do with control issues.

262 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:27:42pm

re: #250 Cato the Elder

Oh, it's relevant all right! These anti-vaccine people are helping create a resurgence in deadly diseases that a simple injection can prevent.

I'm waiting to see what happens the first time a celeb's kid ends up dying from a disease that a simple inoculation could have prevented.

In our local public school system in Maine you have to show evidence that your child is vaccinated before he or she can be admitted........ Unless you object to vaccines! I've never understood that. "Your child must be current on vaccinations, unless, hey, you don't want to get them" Or something like that....

Needless to say, my wife and I are incredulous that some kids in our daughter's school may not be vaccinated.

263 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:28:54pm

re: #258 Mich-again

Actually, the data shows that air bag deployment, and seat belt use, the rate of torso trauma, and subsequent fatality has decreased significantly.

What has increased as a result, is lower extremity trauma.

That energy has to go somewhere.

264 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:29:14pm

re: #181 jaunte

Can you provide some links to those sources?

If his links involved his "proof" that vaccinations aren't necessary because of the drop in numbers of cases of scarlet fever, which is just the result of strep throat that hasn't been knocked out by antibiotics .... they aren't worth the time or calories it would take to click on them.

265 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:29:47pm

re: #257 eddiespaghetti

Ever met a person afflicted with Polio? I had a Grandmother with it, she suffered her whole life. How bad would you feel if you siblings were afflicted because of advice from the Jenny crowd? (think about that, the jenny-f-ing Mcarthy crowd). I would never forgive myself..

That was not meant as being mean, I'm just saying I could not live with myself.

I remember it well, the professor who taught my graduate level courses in virology and pathogenic microbiology was a polio survivor, and partial paraplegic, who used crutches an leg braces to get around. I'm certain that his experience with polio was part of the motivation for his choice of career.

266 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:29:55pm

re: #256 BlueCanuck

And that sounds like another red herring and form of quackery. Any such incident is a rare one.

I respectfully disagree. Here is an example of one vaccine -- Hep B. A man who makes his living as a statistician analyzed the probability of dying of the vaccine versus dying of the disease. The vaccine was hundreds of times more dangerous.

Here is a link to some eye-opening testimony he gave before Congress.

[Link: ffitz.com...]

267 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:30:27pm

re: #261 formercorpsman

Folks, I could go on forever with the morons I deal with every week.

This is more than a cottage industry. While I think it is an excellent idea to be proactive with your own health, it crosses the line when you begin to think you know more than someone who has gone through many, many years of school & become board certified.

Let alone, just the on the job training factor alone that comes with it.

I think the root cause of why so many people are drawn to this, has to do with control issues.

Just wait for socialized medicine. When the government is paying, they have a vested interest. Universal vaccination. Likely the only good that will come out of that monster.

268 razorbacker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:31:38pm

re: #267 Aviator

Just wait for socialized medicine. When the government is paying, they have a vested interest. Universal vaccination. Likely the only good that will come out of that monster.

You mean like in England?

269 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:31:53pm

re: #267 Aviator

Actually, I think that will only fuel the fire for people who are against being vaccinated.

270 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:32:10pm

re: #258 Mich-again

The same logic says that you shouldn't wear a seat belt when you drive a car. There is an infinitesimal chance the seat belt will do more harm than good. You can't rule by the exception.

Same point I made earlier.

271 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:32:32pm

re: #266 clear vision

I respectfully disagree. Here is an example of one vaccine -- Hep B. A man who makes his living as a statistician analyzed the probability of dying of the vaccine versus dying of the disease. The vaccine was hundreds of times more dangerous.

Here is a link to some eye-opening testimony he gave before Congress.

[Link: ffitz.com...]

Where in that report does he state he found that this vaccine caused the condition that killed his child? I couldn't find it.

272 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:33:56pm

re: #259 Salamantis

Nope. If someone's body contains enough antibodies to repel an infection, their body contains enough antibodies to prevent a subsequent infection. And sometimes people can avoid infection from others simply through hygiene or luck.


I read about a case here in Israel where a young man died who had hyper amounts of tetanus antibodies in his system. The immune system really is not so simple and sometimes there are unintended results when you mess with it.

273 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:34:02pm

re: #267 Aviator

Actually, our weekly joint replacements will drop to monthly, then bi-monthly, then annual.

274 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:34:17pm

re: #269 formercorpsman

Actually, I think that will only fuel the fire for people who are against being vaccinated.

My point is that vaccination reduces the health care costs in the long run. The government will require vaccination for the public good.

275 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:34:47pm

re: #266 clear vision

Wait? He analyzed the probablity of death happening? After reading a portion of his testimony and the reason why he dove into this in the first place, I think he might be a tad biased.

276 jaunte  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:35:25pm

Antivaxers are akin to libertarian isolationists, in their belief that their health decisions can be taken without affecting anyone around them. Unfortunately for the rest of us, that isn't the case.

277 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:35:27pm

re: #254 Iron Fist

I recall that. This pen is fairly new.

Just to be clear... I wasn't saying you were holding out on me!

Anyway, I just ordered one... so I'll let you know about my "product evaluation."

(Cool website, btw, thanks.)

278 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:35:46pm

re: #273 formercorpsman

Actually, our weekly joint replacements will drop to monthly, then bi-monthly, then annual.

If you think I'm in favor of socialized medicine, you misread what I wrote. I'm in health care as well.

279 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:36:08pm

re: #274 Aviator

I realized what you were saying.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment.

It is already hysterical, think about the reaction once the government mandates it.

280 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:36:22pm

re: #254 Iron Fist

Surefire makes one of their own. They also have some flashlight designs that are specifically made with weapon applications

I have a couple of those, too.

281 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:36:23pm

re: #271 reine.de.tout

Where in that report does he state he found that this vaccine caused the condition that killed his child? I couldn't find it.

He stated that his previously healthy child had a vaccination 15 hours earlier, died of a swollen brain, and that swollen brains are a known (in the medical literature) side effect of all vaccinations.

282 Occasional Reader  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:37:03pm

Good night.

283 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:37:17pm

re: #278 Aviator

I know that.

Again, just playing devil's advocate.

284 razorbacker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:37:21pm

Working in the junkyard in my youth, I had the opportunity to see up close and personal the rusty brown splotches in the interior of wrecked cars. So I made damned sure that I and everyone in my car buckled up. I went so far as to install seatbelts in my old clunkers that predated belts. When the three-point belts came in, I jumped on them. Hell, I'd wear 4-point harnesses if they weren't illegal (no, I don't know why they are).

285 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:37:32pm

re: #261 formercorpsman

Folks, I could go on forever with the morons I deal with every week.

This is more than a cottage industry. While I think it is an excellent idea to be proactive with your own health, it crosses the line when you begin to think you know more than someone who has gone through many, many years of school & become board certified.

Let alone, just the on the job training factor alone that comes with it.

I think the root cause of why so many people are drawn to this, has to do with control issues.

I agree formercorpsman.

I don't really condemn the anti-vaccine parents that have a child with autism or other learning disability. They are just looking for answers and I can't imagine their anguish at not knowing what has happened to their beautiful child.

But at the same time, I don't want desperation or hysteria to lead to a resurgence of formally eradicated diseases.

286 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:37:40pm

re: #275 BlueCanuck

Wait? He analyzed the probablity of death happening? After reading a portion of his testimony and the reason why he dove into this in the first place, I think he might be a tad biased.

He took the reported numbers of deaths from the vaccination and compared them to deaths from the disease.

287 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:37:50pm

re: #266 clear vision

I respectfully disagree. Here is an example of one vaccine -- Hep B. A man who makes his living as a statistician analyzed the probability of dying of the vaccine versus dying of the disease. The vaccine was hundreds of times more dangerous.

Here is a link to some eye-opening testimony he gave before Congress.

[Link: ffitz.com...]

Yep; he's an antivax troofer, and you posted a link to an article from an antivax troofer website:

New Yorkers for Vaccination Information and Choice
[Link: goodlight.net...]

It also slanders the rotavirus vaccine; it might well behoove you to listen to the audio by Dr. Paul Offit, MD, the person who developed the rotavirus vaccine:

Autism's False Prophets
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

288 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:38:11pm

Well I see clear vision has drunk deeply from the pitcher of kool-aid. I don't think there is any reasoning with it at all.

289 Aviator  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:38:20pm

re: #279 formercorpsman

I realized what you were saying.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment.

It is already hysterical, think about the reaction once the government mandates it.

Those who protest will just be demonized and dismissed. It is what the left does best.

290 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:39:15pm

re: #272 clear vision

Nope. If someone's body contains enough antibodies to repel an infection, their body contains enough antibodies to prevent a subsequent infection. And sometimes people can avoid infection from others simply through hygiene or luck.

I read about a case here in Israel where a young man died who had hyper amounts of tetanus antibodies in his system. The immune system really is not so simple and sometimes there are unintended results when you mess with it.

DFo you have a link to your single anecdote, or are we supposed to take your uncorroborated word for it?

The statistics are against you.

291 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:39:23pm

re: #262 Sleepyone

In our local public school system in Maine you have to show evidence that your child is vaccinated before he or she can be admitted........ Unless you object to vaccines! I've never understood that. "Your child must be current on vaccinations, unless, hey, you don't want to get them" Or something like that....

Needless to say, my wife and I are incredulous that some kids in our daughter's school may not be vaccinated.

Yeah.

What about: You have to pay taxes, unless you object to taxes.

You have to obey the speed limit, unless you see it as an infringement of your personal freedom.

You have to not smoke in a movie theater, unless you like smoking.

You have to eat, unless you hate chewing.

You have to breathe, unless the air smells bad.

The principle that people should not be forced to undergo unwanted medical procedures is a good one, until enough people start refusing vaccinations that it puts the rest of us at risk.

Used to be only Christian Scientists and the like who objected. Now it's becoming trendy. We're in trouble.

Yet how do you force parents to let you stick their kid with a needle?

The only solution is education. Which includes keeping the nutbars and their theories out of science class.

292 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:39:37pm

re: #285 Sleepyone

I have the same sympathy as well.

It is sad this manifests itself through ignorance though.

293 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:39:49pm

re: #286 clear vision

The question I have is, how did he know that the vaccine actually caused those deaths? Is there any evidence besides the child just had a shot?

294 tom from pv  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:41:01pm

re: #135 Dark_Falcon

Tom, your post was all over the map. Try to stay on one subject, please.

The subject is public vaccinations. An obvious reason for someone to not vaccinate their child is because they feel the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease.

Now why would someone reject the polio vaccine or similar given the state of the science? Because they've lost faith in the standard institutions. Like Obama's EPA, when it defines CO2 as a pollutant. Or our CIA, when Obama redefines torture to include placing a caterpillar into somebody's cell.

The vaccination problem is just the beginning. Does this help you follow my thoughts?

295 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:41:22pm

re: #289 Aviator

It is a tough argument. I am against most government mandates.

But I am equally against asininity also.

296 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:42:22pm

re: #287 Salamantis

Yep; he's an antivax troofer, and you posted a link to an article from an antivax troofer website:

He analyzed the situation, and found some disturbing facts.

# Newborn babies are not at risk of contracting the hepatitis B disease unless their mother is infected Hepatitis B is primarily a disease of junkies, gays, and promiscuous heterosexuals
# The vaccine is given to babies because health authorities couldn't get those risk groups to take the vaccine
# Adverse reactions out-number cases of the disease in government statistics
# Nothing is being done to investigate those adverse reactions
# Those adverse reactions include numerous deaths, convulsions and arthritic conditions that occur within days after hepatitis B vaccination
# The CDC is misrepresenting hypothetical, estimated disease statistics as real cases of the disease
# The ACIP is recommending new vaccines for premature infants without having scientific studies proving it is safe
# The US vaccine recommendation process is hopelessly compromised by conflicts of interest with vaccine manufacturers, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the CD

Whether or not this Wall Street financial analyst and statistician is a "troofer" depends on the truth of what he says. It's all verifiable.

297 razorbacker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:42:36pm

The folks in England have socialized medicine. They also have a fairly large population of folks who reject vaccines 'on religious reasons'. Thus they have an increase in diseases that once were 'Third World' problems.

298 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:42:46pm

re: #294 tom from pv

Because it has been science in both Republican & Democrat administrations.

You are painting with too broad a brush.

299 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:42:52pm

re: #281 clear vision

He stated that his previously healthy child had a vaccination 15 hours earlier, died of a swollen brain, and that swollen brains are a known (in the medical literature) side effect of all vaccinations.

Please furnish medical links demonstrating that 'swollen brains' are a 'known (in the medical literature) side effect of all vaccinations."

This guy is illegitimately assuming causation on the basis of correlation. And John Kerry testified before Congress concerning our "Genghis Khan" Vietnam vets; just because you give congressional testimony doesn't mean that your testimony is correct.

300 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:43:01pm

re: #287 Salamantis

Yep; he's an antivax troofer, and you posted a link to an article from an antivax troofer website:

New Yorkers for Vaccination Information and Choice
[Link: goodlight.net...]

It also slanders the rotavirus vaccine; it might well behoove you to listen to the audio by Dr. Paul Offit, MD, the person who developed the rotavirus vaccine:

Autism's False Prophets
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

As ever Sal, the depth and breadth of your knowledge leaves me in awe. Upding!

301 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:43:14pm

re: #291 Cato the Elder

Yeah.

What about: You have to pay taxes, unless you object to taxes.

You have to obey the speed limit, unless you see it as an infringement of your personal freedom.

You have to not smoke in a movie theater, unless you like smoking.

You have to eat, unless you hate chewing.

You have to breathe, unless the air smells bad.

The principle that people should not be forced to undergo unwanted medical procedures is a good one, until enough people start refusing vaccinations that it puts the rest of us at risk.

Used to be only Christian Scientists and the like who objected. Now it's becoming trendy. We're in trouble.

Yet how do you force parents to let you stick their kid with a needle?

The only solution is education. Which includes keeping the nutbars and their theories out of science class.

You're right about education. That's the key.

302 tom from pv  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:45:01pm

re: #222 solomonpanting

I don't believe all scientists are employed by government.

Not relevant. The parent here is weighing the opinion of the government warnings about vaccinations against what he hears in his community and the media.

303 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:45:22pm

Fellow Lizards, most of us know people who "know" that Israel is the bad guy in the Middle East, and think that "everybody" knows that Israel commits atrocities, etc. etc. And if you disagree, you're just a stupid fascist.

Please keep your minds open to the possibility that vaccinations are another one of those areas where what "everybody knows" might break down if you take a closer look.

304 jorline  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:45:47pm

re: #159 formercorpsman

No, I don't have TB.

Should have clarified that in the post.

I have latent TB and the TB test saved my life!

As some you know, I have had a lot of health issues the last eight months. My Rheumatologist has it narrowed down to rheumatoid or psoriatic arthritis. My long term treatments with Humira were due to start in January, but I had to take a TB test first. The TB test was positive and I'm currently undergoing a nine month treatment program to kill the TB. Contracting TB let alone having TB is fatal while using a DMARD.

Thank God for science and modern medicine.

305 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:46:11pm

re: #294 tom from pv

The subject is public vaccinations. An obvious reason for someone to not vaccinate their child is because they feel the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease.

Now why would someone reject the polio vaccine or similar given the state of the science? Because they've lost faith in the standard institutions. Like Obama's EPA, when it defines CO2 as a pollutant. Or our CIA, when Obama redefines torture to include placing a caterpillar into somebody's cell.

The vaccination problem is just the beginning. Does this help you follow my thoughts?

Yes, your clarification does help. Your point is well made in this post. Conspiracy Theories tend to arise out of distrust of institutions. The solution, I think, is to staff those institutions with people who have the needed credibility to knock out the distrust.

306 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:47:39pm

re: #304 jorline

Good for you. Sounds like you are in good hands.

307 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:48:44pm

re: #292 formercorpsman

I have the same sympathy as well.

It is sad this manifests itself through ignorance though.

It is sad indeed. My wife and I had questions about the mercury content of vaccines back in 2000 (based on what we read on the Web) when our daughter was born and after discussing it with the doctor we realized our concern was misplaced and now have two lovely kids who are completely vaccinated.

Maybe it's why this topic causes some compassion in me with some incredulity.

308 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:49:23pm

re: #286 clear vision

He took the reported numbers of deaths from the vaccination and compared them to deaths from the disease.

And how precisely did he prove that the vaccinations caused the deaths? Who 'reported' this figure for him? Can you furnish a link? And if Congress thought his concerns were genuinely reflective of an actually existing problem, what did they do about them? I'll bet they did nothing, because they DIDN'T consider his concerns to be so, any more than Jenny McCarthy's are.

Some people - like, for instance, Jenny McCarthy - have this psychological need to blame the deaths or autisms of their children on something, ANYTHING, besides themselves - their genetics, their child care - and vaccines are a handy scapegoat. But sometimes infections completely unrelated to a vaccine happen soon after it is administered, through no fault of the parent, and sometimes kids are genetically predisposed to autism (and parents cannot control their genetic legacies, either).

309 tom from pv  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:50:58pm

re: #298 formercorpsman

The march away from science is fairly new -- credit Al Gore and the global warming alarmists for doing most of the damage in the last 10 years. Now that Obama and that crowd has full control of the federal govt agencies -- we can expect a full blown assault against objective science and in favor of politicized science.

The CO2 nonsense is unbelievable nonsense that even a 5th grader will laugh at. But note how little attention from the media. Obama is just starting.

310 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:51:10pm

re: #303 clear vision

Fellow Lizards, most of us know people who "know" that Israel is the bad guy in the Middle East, and think that "everybody" knows that Israel commits atrocities, etc. etc. And if you disagree, you're just a stupid fascist.

Please keep your minds open to the possibility that vaccinations are another one of those areas where what "everybody knows" might break down if you take a closer look.

Vaccines of one kind or another have been around for over a hundred years. This is the same argument that creationists try to palm off concerning evolutionary theory.

311 jorline  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:51:45pm

re: #306 formercorpsman

Good for you. Sounds like you are in good hands.

Yep!
Because I tested positive I can't take another TB test in the future. I have to take an annual chest x-ray from now on...not near as reliable.

312 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:52:41pm

re: #151 ArchangelMichael

From quacks. That aluminum alzheimer's thing has been going around awhile. I had friends in high school who's parents wouldn't let them drink anything in a aluminum can because "aluminum dust will give you alzheimers."

some quick research:
A serious concern: Alzheimer’s Disesase
Hugh Fudenberg, MD, an immunogeneticist and biologist with nearly 850 papers published in peer review journals, has reported that if an individual had five consecutive flu shots between 1970 and 1980 (the years studied), his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease is ten times higher than if they had zero, one, or two shots.[vii]

Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor and Chair of the Department of Chemistry at the University of Kentucky, Lexington has done extensive research in the area of mercury toxicity and the brain. Haley’s research has established a likely connection between mercury toxicity and Alzheimer’s disease. [viii] In a paper published in collaboration with researchers at University of Calgary, Haley stated that “seven of the characteristic markers that we look for to distinguish Alzheimer's disease can be produced in normal brain tissues, or cultures of neurons, by the addition of extremely low levels of mercury.”[ix]

Does this prove that the mercury contained in the influenza shot can be directly linked to Alzheimer’s? No, absolutely not. But further research in this area is critically needed because the absence of proof is not the “proof of absence.”[x]

313 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:53:45pm

re: #114 clear vision

Based on investigating the risks versus the benefits. There is a lot of contradictory info out there, but I went for the evidence-based kind, not the mere assertion. It took a few years (my middle kids had one or two vaccines), but in the end, none of them were worth the harm.

What harm? What evidence?

Your children will probably be fine because of herd immunity but, if more parents refuse to have their children immunized, the incidence of all preventable infectious diseases will rise. See England for evidence of that.

314 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:54:04pm

re: #229 MJ

As for the good, late Robert S. Mendelsohn, he engaged in what is termed
as the Golden Age Fallacy or the Nostalgia fallacy. Where the solution to a particular problem is asserted as a return to the assumed social values or worldview of an earlier "Golden Age"; when said problem is deemed not to have existed, or was less significant than in the present time (and which is typically a historically incorrect assertion).

Relevant to nothing other than your bit I quoted, this philosophical fallacy is also a cornerstone of Fascism.

315 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:54:07pm

re: #310 Salamantis

Vaccines of one kind or another have been around for over a hundred years. This is the same argument that creationists try to palm off concerning evolutionary theory.

And some of what clear vision says seems the same kind of thing that creationists say, such as the unsupported assertions and pleas to "keep an open mind" when the weight of the facts turns against them. Perhaps we should make up an "Anti-Vaccine Form Letter".

316 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:54:40pm

re: #296 clear vision

He analyzed the situation, and found some disturbing facts.

# Newborn babies are not at risk of contracting the hepatitis B disease unless their mother is infected Hepatitis B is primarily a disease of junkies, gays, and promiscuous heterosexuals
# The vaccine is given to babies because health authorities couldn't get those risk groups to take the vaccine
# Adverse reactions out-number cases of the disease in government statistics
# Nothing is being done to investigate those adverse reactions
# Those adverse reactions include numerous deaths, convulsions and arthritic conditions that occur within days after hepatitis B vaccination
# The CDC is misrepresenting hypothetical, estimated disease statistics as real cases of the disease
# The ACIP is recommending new vaccines for premature infants without having scientific studies proving it is safe
# The US vaccine recommendation process is hopelessly compromised by conflicts of interest with vaccine manufacturers, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the CD

Whether or not this Wall Street financial analyst and statistician is a "troofer" depends on the truth of what he says. It's all verifiable.

All you did was uncritically copy and paste that section from the selfasme antivax troofer link you proffered here earlier, without verifying a single whit of it.

317 tom from pv  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:56:43pm

re: #305 Dark_Falcon

Yes, your clarification does help. Your point is well made in this post. Conspiracy Theories tend to arise out of distrust of institutions. The solution, I think, is to staff those institutions with people who have the needed credibility to knock out the distrust.

Exactly right! But, alas, this is also why the EPA report on CO2 does so much damage. Talk about kooks. Jim Kerrey doesn't claim to be a scientist so can be forgiven, in a way.

I should also mention that here in LA, the illegal immigration community is well known to be under vaccinated. Not because they distrust the govt but because they live in a parallel "universe" where contact with normal disease prevention doesn't happen.

318 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:57:25pm

re: #308 Salamantis

And how precisely did he prove that the vaccinations caused the deaths? Who 'reported' this figure for him? Can you furnish a link? And if Congress thought his concerns were genuinely reflective of an actually existing problem, what did they do about them? I'll bet they did nothing, because they DIDN'T consider his concerns to be so, any more than Jenny McCarthy's are.

Some people - like, for instance, Jenny McCarthy - have this psychological need to blame the deaths or autisms of their children on something, ANYTHING, besides themselves - their genetics, their child care - and vaccines are a handy scapegoat. But sometimes infections completely unrelated to a vaccine happen soon after it is administered, through no fault of the parent, and sometimes kids are genetically predisposed to autism (and parents cannot control their genetic legacies, either).

From Michael Belkin's testimony:
I studied statistics at the University Of California at Berkeley and went on to develop sophisticated proprietary risk/reward statistical models at Salomon Brothers from 1986-91 -- and in my subsequent, ongoing business provide statistical economic and financial forecasts to mutual funds, investment banks, pension funds and hedge funds.

I studied VAERS hepatitis B vaccine data obtained by the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) under the Freedom of Information Act. The data has some flaws (incomplete fields, some multiple reports) but any qualified, impartial quantitative analyst or statistician not affiliated with Merck, Smithkline, the CDC, the FDA or the AAP who examines these reports will find a clear and undeniable pattern of central nervous system (CNS) and liver disease striking thousands of people within 0-4 days after vaccination with hepatitis B vaccine.

These reports have been ignored, explained away, or considered "acceptable" by the FDA, CDC and drug companies.

319 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:57:31pm

re: #294 tom from pv

Now why would someone reject the polio vaccine or similar given the state of the science? Because they've lost faith in the standard institutions.

So all of those parents, beginning in the 1950's, who had faith in the

320 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:57:45pm

re: #312 clear vision

some quick research:
A serious concern: Alzheimer’s Disesase
Hugh Fudenberg, MD, an immunogeneticist and biologist with nearly 850 papers published in peer review journals, has reported that if an individual had five consecutive flu shots between 1970 and 1980 (the years studied), his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease is ten times higher than if they had zero, one, or two shots.[vii]

Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor and Chair of the Department of Chemistry at the University of Kentucky, Lexington has done extensive research in the area of mercury toxicity and the brain. Haley’s research has established a likely connection between mercury toxicity and Alzheimer’s disease. [viii] In a paper published in collaboration with researchers at University of Calgary, Haley stated that “seven of the characteristic markers that we look for to distinguish Alzheimer's disease can be produced in normal brain tissues, or cultures of neurons, by the addition of extremely low levels of mercury.”[ix]

Does this prove that the mercury contained in the influenza shot can be directly linked to Alzheimer’s? No, absolutely not. But further research in this area is critically needed because the absence of proof is not the “proof of absence.”[x]

Did these studies control for Mercury exposure from fish consumption or drinking water? Those tend to be greater sources of Mercury poisoning than Influenza Vaccines.

321 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:58:08pm

On a less serious note, I used to love seeing Fire Marshall Bill along with Carrey's other characters on In Living Color back in the days.

And now, back to work and a few beers!

322 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 8:58:15pm

re: #309 tom from pv

You won't get that argument from me. Check the CO2 levels from the Cretaceous Period, and now.

Nonetheless, just because someone is using junk science as a means for a political end, does not excuse wild hairs, or insane mob thought.

We have eradicated many diseases because of vaccination, and modern medicine.

The ignorance of a few can spell disaster for many.

323 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:00:08pm

re: #311 jorline

If possible, just make sure you get the study by the same facility, and if you can, the same radiologist reading it.

(Comparisons from the year before)

324 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:00:29pm

re: #315 Dark_Falcon

And some of what clear vision says seems the same kind of thing that creationists say, such as the unsupported assertions and pleas to "keep an open mind" when the weight of the facts turns against them. Perhaps we should make up an "Anti-Vaccine Form Letter".

Sorry, I don't mean to turn people off by sounding like troofers or creationists. It plain hurts me that people I care about, like Lizards, are harming themselves or their children with this stuff.

And I feel like such a poor advocate -- a few years ago I was more up on it, I would pick and choose among vaccines for my middle kids, but now that I've have enough info, I've stopped researching constantly.

325 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:00:41pm
326 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:01:50pm
327 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:01:54pm

re: #324 clear vision

Serious question.

Do you take any joint supplements?

328 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:02:23pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

Did these studies control for Mercury exposure from fish consumption or drinking water? Those tend to be greater sources of Mercury poisoning than Influenza Vaccines.

I don't think that he was trying to put the blame on the vaccines instead of fish. I think he's just showing that mercury is harmful to the brain, even in small quantities. If you know that certain vaccines have mercury as an ingredient -- like the flu vaccine -- that is something to consider in the risk/benefit analysis.

329 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:02:31pm
330 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:02:41pm

re: #327 formercorpsman

Serious question.

Do you take any joint supplements?

No.

331 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:02:49pm

knowing that america is a country where hollywood celebrities are accorded the same media attention regarding medicine as scientists and doctors makes me cry from outter space

332 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:03:05pm

re: #312 clear vision

some quick research:
A serious concern: Alzheimer’s Disesase
Hugh Fudenberg, MD, an immunogeneticist and biologist with nearly 850 papers published in peer review journals, has reported that if an individual had five consecutive flu shots between 1970 and 1980 (the years studied), his/her chances of getting Alzheimer's Disease is ten times higher than if they had zero, one, or two shots.[vii]

Disciplinary Actions against Herman Hugh Fudenberg, M.D.
[Link: www.casewatch.org...]

Herman Hugh Fudenberg, M.D., Ph.D., is part of a small but noisy network of misguided health professionals who claim that vaccinations are dangerous and that mercury poisoning is a major cause of autism. He routinely advises against giving immunizations during infancy and early childhood. He has also promoted the dubious notion that "transfer factor" is an effective treatment for autism.

In November 1995, the South Carolina medical board found Fudenberg "guilty of engaging in dishonorable, unethical, or unprofessional conduct," fined him $10,000, ordered him to surrender his license to prescribe controlled substances (narcotic drugs), and placed his license on indefinite suspension. The Board's order, shown below, said that he could apply for probationary status if he underwent a neuropsychiatric examination and was judged capable of practicing medicine safely. In March 1996, he was permitted to resume practice under terms of probation that did not permit him to prescribe any drugs. His license expired in January 2004; and in March 2004, he applied to have it reinstated. However, after a hearing in which the Board considered a neuropsychatric report issued in 2003, Fudenberg agreed to remain in a "retired" status and withdrew his application for reactivation of his license. The South Carolina board's Web site lists his license as "lapsed."

Fudenberg's lack of a license does not appear to have stopped him from offering medical services to the public. His Neuro Immuno Therapeutics Research Foundation Web site offers the following services: review of past medical records ($750 per inch); determining what tests are needed, ordering the tests, and interpreting the tests ($750); and determining which therapy will work (usually 2 hours @ $750/hour).

Additional information about Fudenberg's activities is available on the Web site of investigative reporter Brian Deer.

Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor and Chair of the Department of Chemistry at the University of Kentucky, Lexington has done extensive research in the area of mercury toxicity and the brain. Haley’s research has established a likely connection between mercury toxicity and Alzheimer’s disease. [viii] In a paper published in collaboration with researchers at University of Calgary, Haley stated that “seven of the characteristic markers that we look for to distinguish Alzheimer's disease can be produced in normal brain tissues, or cultures of neurons, by the addition of extremely low levels of mercury.”[ix]

A Critical Look at Cavitational Osteopathosis, NICO, and "Biological Dentistry"
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
[Link: www.quackwatch.org...]

The countersuit also described how the NICO concept has been promoted by Bouquot, Wesley Shankland, II, D.D.S., of Columbus, Ohio, and Boyd Haley, Ph.D., a chemist who operates a laboratory that performs "oral toxicity" tests that support what "biological dentists" claim.

Does this prove that the mercury contained in the influenza shot can be directly linked to Alzheimer’s? No, absolutely not. But further research in this area is critically needed because the absence of proof is not the “proof of absence.”[x]

It certainly isn't proof of presence, which is the way the minds of conspiracy theorists work. All you have proven is that you rely on the assurances of known quacks.

333 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:03:12pm

re: #319 solomonpanting

What happened to the rest of my comment?

So all of those parents, beginning in the 1950's, who had faith in the government and the SCIENCE, and vaccinated their children with positive results, were wrong?
Suppose those parents had no faith in the government or in the SCIENCE and still vaccinated their children. Do you believe the results would have changed?

334 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:03:26pm

re: #330 clear vision

Fair enough.

335 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:03:31pm

re: #309 tom from pv

The march away from science is fairly new -- credit Al Gore and the global warming alarmists for doing most of the damage in the last 10 years.

Credit where it's due, certainly. But Algore greenism is not responsible for "most of the damage in the last 10 years". Many factions of secular Luddites, and Luddites of a wide variety of religious persuasions, have had there fat, dishonest, ignorant fingers stirring the "anti-science" pot for a very long time now.

Not just the last ten years, or the last ten decades, but for many centuries now.

336 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:04:16pm

re: #329 reine.de.tout

Great info!


More on Quackwatch:
Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases
At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam.

This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed expert testimony as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a legal expert even though he had no formal legal training.

The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial.

337 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:04:20pm

Gin soaked raisins.

338 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:04:31pm

re: #331 spacejesus

knowing that america is a country where hollywood celebrities are accorded the same media attention regarding medicine as scientists and doctors makes me cry from outter space

It makes me cry here in Chicagoland, too.

339 formercorpsman  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:05:42pm

Good night folks.

340 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:06:02pm

re: #312 clear vision

H Fudenberg has exactly ZERO publications listed on PubMed regarding mercury and Alzheimer's disease and ZERO publications mentioning an influenza immunization.

341 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:06:03pm

re: #331 spacejesus

knowing that america is a country where hollywood celebrities are accorded the same media attention regarding medicine as scientists and doctors makes me cry from outter space

SpaceJesus, you'd better watch out, you're starting to make sense.

342 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:06:25pm

I am enjoying this Google-fu duel to the death. So far, my money is on Salamanitis.

343 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:06:59pm

re: #339 formercorpsman

Good night folks.

ciao

344 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:07:01pm

re: #318 clear vision

From Michael Belkin's testimony:
I studied statistics at the University Of California at Berkeley and went on to develop sophisticated proprietary risk/reward statistical models at Salomon Brothers from 1986-91 -- and in my subsequent, ongoing business provide statistical economic and financial forecasts to mutual funds, investment banks, pension funds and hedge funds.

I studied VAERS hepatitis B vaccine data obtained by the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) under the Freedom of Information Act. The data has some flaws (incomplete fields, some multiple reports) but any qualified, impartial quantitative analyst or statistician not affiliated with Merck, Smithkline, the CDC, the FDA or the AAP who examines these reports will find a clear and undeniable pattern of central nervous system (CNS) and liver disease striking thousands of people within 0-4 days after vaccination with hepatitis B vaccine.

These reports have been ignored, explained away, or considered "acceptable" by the FDA, CDC and drug companies.

Maybe because only antivax 'true believers' accept his conclusions, which even he admits are flawed. They sound as self-serving as those Lancet reports of mass Iraqi deaths that were compiled by a rabid antiwar activist and subsequently debunked. It is the precise opposite of science to determine what one will find before one goes looking for it; one cannot assume one's conclusion before one peruses the premissed data, But this seems to be precisely what this bereaved parent has done.

345 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:07:10pm

re: #342 doppelganglander

I am enjoying this Google-fu duel to the death. So far, my money is on Salamanitis.

Mine, too.

346 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:08:13pm

re: #345 reine.de.tout

Mine, too.

Google Pong!

347 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:08:29pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

SpaceJesus, you'd better watch out, you're starting to make sense.

There must be some hitch in the marijuana supply chain in his corner of the galaxy.

348 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:09:29pm

People, people:

I have a skin condition. Had it my whole life since puberty.

Every second person I meet who knows about it has a pet theory about what I shouldn't eat, which vitamins to hyperload, types of fabric to avoid, exercise, acupuncture, hormonal imbalance, negative thinking, sunshine, avoiding sunshine, theosophy or karma.

I've been to every kind of dermatologist there is and not one of them has said anything about that stuff.

What I have is called folliculitis. Inflammation of the hair follicles. Mostly on my back.

What does it mean? It means the hair follicles are liable to get inflamed. Cause? The don't really know. Treatment? Mild antibiotics, a very weak steroid cream when it gets bad, and swimming in high-saline water. Best in the world: the Dead Sea. The Adriatic is also great. Unfortunately I live on the East Coast, and the chlorine water at the Y is the best I can do.

All these hobby doctors can kiss my wrinkled Roman ass. People drive me crazy with their faith-healing theories.

But no, it's gotta be a big conspiracy by the dermatologists to keep me suffering so I'll buy the (really cheap) medicines they prescribe.

Paging Tom Cruise...

349 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:10:52pm

re: #324 clear vision

Sorry, I don't mean to turn people off by sounding like troofers or creationists. It plain hurts me that people I care about, like Lizards, are harming themselves or their children with this stuff.

And I feel like such a poor advocate -- a few years ago I was more up on it, I would pick and choose among vaccines for my middle kids, but now that I've have enough info, I've stopped researching constantly.

People would harm their children by taking your advice, refusing to vaccinate their children, and thus exposing them to these dread diseases.

And when their children contract these diseases, and sicken and die, or are handicapped for the rest of their lives, you will be at least partially responsible.

350 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:11:20pm

re: #328 clear vision

I don't think that he was trying to put the blame on the vaccines instead of fish. I think he's just showing that mercury is harmful to the brain, even in small quantities. If you know that certain vaccines have mercury as an ingredient -- like the flu vaccine -- that is something to consider in the risk/benefit analysis.

It should be considered, but in my opinion the benefits are still greater. Influenza kills far more people than does Alzheimer's Disease. Vaccines that can prevent influenza save more lives than they could possibly end.

Let me also say that it is true that vaccines can (very rarely) hurt and kill. Whichever approach is taken, there will be deaths. However, it is my conclusion and has been since I was 12, that vaccination is the course that will minimize such deaths and it a far better course as far as that goes.

351 Sleepyone  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:11:37pm

re: #344 Salamantis

Maybe because only antivax 'true believers' accept his conclusions, which even he admits are flawed. They sound as self-serving as those Lancet reports of mass Iraqi deaths that were compiled by a rabid antiwar activist and subsequently debunked. It is the precise opposite of science to determine what one will find before one goes looking for it; one cannot assume one's conclusion before one peruses the premissed data, But this seems to be precisely what this bereaved parent has done.

Salamantis, I have to say that your comments at this end of the thread are very measured and competent. You come off as someone who genuinely wants to convince or help someone to see the errors of their ways.

352 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:11:55pm

re: #345 reine.de.tout

Mine, too.

Me three.

353 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:11:57pm

re: #344 Salamantis

Maybe because only antivax 'true believers' accept his conclusions, which even he admits are flawed. They sound as self-serving as those Lancet reports of mass Iraqi deaths that were compiled by a rabid antiwar activist and subsequently debunked. It is the precise opposite of science to determine what one will find before one goes looking for it; one cannot assume one's conclusion before one peruses the premissed data, But this seems to be precisely what this bereaved parent has done.

He admits that some of the data he bases his statistics on are incomplete, not that his conclusions are flawed. And you are assuming that he assumed his conclusion before he started. It seems to me from reading what he has to say, that he as a bereaved parent wanted Truth.

Doesn't it make you think twice about giving all newborns that vaccine, that they have almost no chance of getting the disease unless their families have it, or are druggies? If your baby did have a bad reaction, how would you know that it was from the vaccine and not their "being born that way"?

354 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:12:38pm

re: #348 Cato the Elder

Paging Tom Cruise...

You're just being glib.

355 razorbacker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:13:27pm

re: #335 Slumbering Behemoth

Frankly, I think that a lot of it has to do with poor education. Science is hard. Much easier to teach self esteem. There are no wrong answers, just differently abled answers.

Add in the 'mad scientist', the 70's (you younger folks just don't know how close we came to a planet-freezing ice age. You should go hug an SUV.) And let us not forget that all cultures are equal, and if you think your scientific worldview is superior to a witchdoctor waving a chicken wing over your head you really must be some type of racist western-centric fool.

Off-hand, I can't imagine what causes the rise in nutty behavior.

356 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:14:08pm

re: #328 clear vision

I don't think that he was trying to put the blame on the vaccines instead of fish. I think he's just showing that mercury is harmful to the brain, even in small quantities. If you know that certain vaccines have mercury as an ingredient -- like the flu vaccine -- that is something to consider in the risk/benefit analysis.

Thiomerisol, which contains minute amounts of mercury as a preservative, has been removed from the overwhelming majority of vaccines for years - without any effect whatsoever on autism rates of vaccinated children - which have remained the same as or lower than autism rates of UNvaccinated children, in statistical studies using hundreds of thousands of children as data points.

357 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:15:23pm
358 jorline  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:15:29pm

re: #323 formercorpsman

If possible, just make sure you get the study by the same facility, and if you can, the same radiologist reading it.

(Comparisons from the year before)

Thanks. A city of 300K and we only have three rheumatologist...sad. He is my personal rheumy and the only one I see.

359 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:16:14pm

re: #344 Salamantis

They sound as self-serving as those Lancet reports of mass Iraqi deaths that were compiled by a rabid antiwar activist and subsequently debunked

Funny you should mention that.

A more controversial cluster study conducted between May and July 2006 by Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, published in the Lancet medical journal, estimated that 601,027 Iraqis had died due to violence.

Secret tally has 87,215 Iraqis dead

360 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:16:47pm

re: #349 Salamantis

People would harm their children by taking your advice, refusing to vaccinate their children, and thus exposing them to these dread diseases.

And when their children contract these diseases, and sicken and die, or are handicapped for the rest of their lives, you will be at least partially responsible.

I'm in my 40s and I had mumps, measles, rubella, chicken pox. I'm glad I had them. I didn't have to worry about rubella when I was pregnant (eight times), because I have natural immunity -- not the artificial kind, where, even if it does work, wears off by the time you need it.

(So just get another one? Add more undesirable toxins into your body, right when you want to get pregnant?)

361 JacksonTn  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:17:43pm

re: #360 clear vision

I'm in my 40s and I had mumps, measles, rubella, chicken pox. I'm glad I had them. I didn't have to worry about rubella when I was pregnant (eight times), because I have natural immunity -- not the artificial kind, where, even if it does work, wears off by the time you need it.

(So just get another one? Add more undesirable toxins into your body, right when you want to get pregnant?)

CV ... you are an idiot ... I guess you would also take your kids to a "measles" party? ...

362 jorline  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:17:53pm

re: #331 spacejesus

knowing that america is a country where hollywood celebrities are accorded the same media attention regarding medicine as scientists and doctors makes me cry from outter space

Hey SJ, your karma has made a 180 degree turn...a lot of up-dings lately...good for you.

363 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:18:42pm

re: #353 clear vision

He admits that some of the data he bases his statistics on are incomplete, not that his conclusions are flawed. And you are assuming that he assumed his conclusion before he started. It seems to me from reading what he has to say, that he as a bereaved parent wanted Truth.

Doesn't it make you think twice about giving all newborns that vaccine, that they have almost no chance of getting the disease unless their families have it, or are druggies? If your baby did have a bad reaction, how would you know that it was from the vaccine and not their "being born that way"?

Nope, because a certain percentage of parents WILL indulge in such behaviors, and their children will be at risk. Just like the children themselves would be should THEY indulge in such behaviors.

It reminds me of the opposition to HPV virus vaccination, which prevents a sexually transmitted viral infection that causes cervical cancer., on the grounds that science is interfering with the method by which God is exacting His Righteous vengeance and retribution upon the sinful promiscuous. Even though one can contract the disease from a single sexual partner, if one is that person's second sexual partner.

364 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:20:10pm

re: #360 clear vision

I'm in my 40s and I had mumps, measles, rubella, chicken pox. I'm glad I had them. I didn't have to worry about rubella when I was pregnant (eight times), because I have natural immunity -- not the artificial kind, where, even if it does work, wears off by the time you need it.

(So just get another one? Add more undesirable toxins into your body, right when you want to get pregnant?)

There is no differernce between disease-caused antibodies and vaccine-caused antibodies. So what makes one of them an undesirable toxin and the other one not?

365 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:20:12pm

re: #331 spacejesus

knowing that america is a country where hollywood celebrities are accorded the same media attention regarding medicine as scientists and doctors makes me cry from outter space

You know, SpaceJesus, when you're not engaging in trollish dickery, you make some reasonable points. And with some humor as well.

As I am sure you have gathered by now, being a contrarian here is not a sin worthy of banishment. Lately, I have seen posts from you that have given many here a reason to say "Second look at SpaceJesus?"

I look forward to a SpaceJesus who can be contrary without dropping troll bombs. It's obvious that you are capable.

366 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:20:57pm

re: #214 clear vision

I haven't researched that, but I bet that there is little increase in life expectancy -- and you've gone through major surgery.

You "bet".

You betcha.

367 jaunte  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:21:07pm

So 'esther ar', you don't like links, or you don't like questions?

368 grahamski  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:21:23pm

Nope, not going to say it, Must resist, must resist....

369 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:21:23pm

re: #356 Salamantis

re: #356 Salamantis

Thiomerisol, which contains minute amounts of mercury as a preservative, has been removed from the overwhelming majority of vaccines for years - without any effect whatsoever on autism rates of vaccinated children - which have remained the same as or lower than autism rates of UNvaccinated children, in statistical studies using hundreds of thousands of children as data points.

Please link to any study comparing UNvaccinated children's autism rates with vaccinated children's. I'd love to see that.

Mercury is still used in the manufacturing process, but they don't have to list it as ingredient anymore. And nobody said that mercury is the ONLY cause of autism. As I understand it, traumas to the body can push a child over into autism. Some happen in pregnancy, and the child is born with it. Some happen later, such as multiple vaccinations, and the child, who was normal, develops "regressive" autism.

370 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:22:48pm

re: #363 Salamantis

Nope, because a certain percentage of parents WILL indulge in such behaviors, and their children will be at risk. Just like the children themselves would be should THEY indulge in such behaviors.

It reminds me of the opposition to HPV virus vaccination, which prevents a sexually transmitted viral infection that causes cervical cancer., on the grounds that science is interfering with the method by which God is exacting His Righteous vengeance and retribution upon the sinful promiscuous. Even though one can contract the disease from a single sexual partner, if one is that person's second sexual partner.

But if you know your kid is not promiscuous, AND you know that some girls have had disabling reactions to Gardasil, wouldn't you hesitate to give it to her?

371 JacksonTn  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:24:05pm

re: #370 clear vision

But if you know your kid is not promiscuous, AND you know that some girls have had disabling reactions to Gardasil, wouldn't you hesitate to give it to her?

Cv ... I only thought I had read the dumbest post you had written ...

"But if you know your kid is not promiscuous" ...

Right there tells me all I need to know about you ... and your head in the sand ...

372 razorbacker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:25:03pm

Clear vision doesn't have it, and spacejesus is making sense.

Crap. I'm going to bed before a monkey flies out my butt.

373 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:25:17pm

re: #364 Salamantis

There is no differernce between disease-caused antibodies and vaccine-caused antibodies. So what makes one of them an undesirable toxin and the other one not?

I don't know if there is a difference in the antibodies or not. But it is true that for the vast majority of people, natural immunity is for life. And with vaccines, it is just a few years. Everybody, conventional or not, acknowledges that.

So there is a clear benefit to the natural.

374 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:25:39pm

re: #272 clear vision

[...] And sometimes people can avoid infection from others simply through hygiene or luck. [...]

You go ahead and rely on soap and good fortune, or amulets, or positive thinking, or karma.

I'll take science.

375 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:26:40pm

re: #369 clear vision

re: #356 Salamantis


Please link to any study comparing UNvaccinated children's autism rates with vaccinated children's. I'd love to see that.

Mercury is still used in the manufacturing process, but they don't have to list it as ingredient anymore. And nobody said that mercury is the ONLY cause of autism. As I understand it, traumas to the body can push a child over into autism. Some happen in pregnancy, and the child is born with it. Some happen later, such as multiple vaccinations, and the child, who was normal, develops "regressive" autism.

Since you seem to like both types, here is anecdotal evidence:

[Link: notmercury.blogspot.com...]

And here is statistical evidence:

[Link: autismnaturalvariation.blogspot.com...]

Excerpt:

Strikingly, the survey found that while 3.01% of all vaccinated children had an ASD diagnosis, about 3.73% of all unvaccinated children did. That's right. The survey found autism to be more common among the unvaccinated. While this difference is not statistically significant, I think Kev was correct when he characterized it as disastrous for Generation Rescue's political goals. It also contradicts years of claims by GR itself and Dan Olmstead in regards to the Amish and so on.

376 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:26:50pm

re: #371 JacksonTn

Cv ... I only thought I had read the dumbest post you had written ...

"But if you know your kid is not promiscuous" ...

Right there tells me all I need to know about you ... and your head in the sand ...

I'm not talking about public policy, I'm talking about one person knowing their kid. Like, I knew that I didn't need the antibiotics in the eye for my newborns because I knew that I didn't have VDs.

377 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:27:02pm

re: #360 clear vision

I'm in my 40s and I had mumps, measles, rubella, chicken pox. I'm glad I had them. I didn't have to worry about rubella when I was pregnant (eight times), because I have natural immunity -- not the artificial kind, where, even if it does work, wears off by the time you need it.

(So just get another one? Add more undesirable toxins into your body, right when you want to get pregnant?)

I was waiting for that!

Here's a comment from a Respectful Insolence post:

And another commenter says, "many older people I know had mumps, measles , chicken pox and other things and I am happy to report that they are alive and well today"

Yes, because those that aren't alive and well are, you know, DEAD! They died before you were born.

Just like everyone I ever met who was in WWII was alive, so I concluded that war isn't all that bad.

Posted by: Tsu Dho Nimh %P% April 17, 2009 7:24 AM

378 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:28:04pm

re: #370 clear vision

But if you know your kid is not promiscuous, AND you know that some girls have had disabling reactions to Gardasil, wouldn't you hesitate to give it to her?

No, I would not. Salamantis explained the reason in his #363. Again, in my eyes the rewards outweigh the risks. Promiscuity has little to do with it. Someone can pick up a disease like this even if they are monogamous, it depends on who their partner slept with.

379 JacksonTn  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:28:09pm

re: #373 clear vision

I don't know if there is a difference in the antibodies or not. But it is true that for the vast majority of people, natural immunity is for life. And with vaccines, it is just a few years. Everybody, conventional or not, acknowledges that.

So there is a clear benefit to the natural.

CV ... I am going to ask you this and then not pay attention to your posts ...

Have you ever been to a chemo room? Have ever known anyone dying from cervical cancer? ... it is caused by HPV virus ... If your daughter who was a virgin when she married got the virus from her husband ... would you like to be able to go back in time and have her get the vaccination? ... answer this please ...

380 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:29:53pm

re: #370 clear vision

But if you know your kid is not promiscuous, AND you know that some girls have had disabling reactions to Gardasil, wouldn't you hesitate to give it to her?

Yep. Because what folks know that just ain't so can hurt folks (Ronald Reagan).

It reminds me of a backwoods preacher who was explaining to his congregation the difference between knowledge and faith:

Now, see here, we have Mr, And Mrs. Ledbetter and their seven children - fine children, every one of them.

Now, MRS. Ledbetter KNOWS that they're all her children - that's knowledge; MR. Ledbetter BELIEVES that they're all his children; that's faith.

381 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:30:37pm

Just a comment about modern autism diagnoses, and it is completely personal and anecdotal, and I acknowledge that.

As a scout leader, I work with a boy who was just diagnosed with Asperger's. His parents are totally willing to accept the diagnosis, and point out behaviors that are caused by it. They've put him on a pain-in-the-butt diet because of it.

To be honest, I have no idea what they are talking about. He just seems like normal boy to me, and I haven't noticed any of the behaviors I have noticed in other Asperger's kids.

Twenty years ago, there would have been no diagnosis.

382 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:34:19pm

re: #373 clear vision

I don't know if there is a difference in the antibodies or not. But it is true that for the vast majority of people, natural immunity is for life. And with vaccines, it is just a few years. Everybody, conventional or not, acknowledges that.

So there is a clear benefit to the natural.

Actually, umm, no; it depends upon the disease. Some folks can contract a disease a second time after many years; when they are vaccinated against such a disease, they typically (much) later receive booster vaccinations.

Other diseases NEVER recur, whether they were suffered through once, or whether they were vaccinated against once.

Some antibodies stick around longer than others, and it makes no difference how they were generated.

383 revobob  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:35:07pm

re: #372 razorbacker

Clear vision doesn't have it, and spacejesus is making sense.

Crap. I'm going to bed before a monkey flies out my butt.

All we need now is Avanti and Walter agreeing...

384 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:35:57pm

Salamantis, thanks for posting those links, I will go into them in depth later.
The research one seems non-rigorous on first glance, though.

I'm not chickening out here, honest, folks, but I've got to get my kids out to school.

Good health to all lizards!

385 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:36:37pm

re: #376 clear vision

I'm not talking about public policy, I'm talking about one person knowing their kid. Like, I knew that I didn't need the antibiotics in the eye for my newborns because I knew that I didn't have VDs.

Silver nitrate in a newborn's eyes prevents all kinds of birth canal transmissable eye infections, and many of them are not STDs.

386 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:36:43pm

re: #214 clear vision

I haven't researched that, but I bet that there is little increase in life expectancy -- and you've gone through major surgery.

"Little increase in life expectancy"? That's simply not true.

Are you a doctor? Epidemiologist? Biostatistician?

You don't know what you're talking about so please stop.

387 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:37:08pm

re: #383 revobob

All we need now is Avanti and Walter agreeing...

When that happens, we'll all join hands and sing "Kumbaya'. :D

388 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:37:38pm

re: #373 clear vision

[...] But it is true that for the vast majority of people, natural immunity is for life. And with vaccines, it is just a few years. Everybody, conventional or not, acknowledges that. [...]

That is plain nonsense. If it were true, how come we don't get polio booster shots throughout life?

The things that do require boosters are a different story.

Let me ask you: If you step on a rusty nail, will you grab a tetanus shot? Or leave it to hygiene and luck?

And if you get bitten by a wild animal, will you take your chances with rabies, or go for the shots?

389 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:37:53pm

re: #371 JacksonTn

Cv ... I only thought I had read the dumbest post you had written ...

"But if you know your kid is not promiscuous" ...

Right there tells me all I need to know about you ... and your head in the sand ...

I've got to admit, I have not had my girls (ages almost 22 and 17) immunized with Gardasil. Laugh all you want, but I am 100% positive neither one is sexually active. I was actually just thinking about talking to the older one about getting it soon, while she's still on our insurance. I might have the younger one vaccinated before she goes to college, at the same time she gets the meningitis and Hep B vaccines. (It was not available when the older one started college, IIRC).

I had several reasons for not having them vaccinated the minute it came out. For one thing, I knew they were extremely low risk. (I know you're still laughing, but you'd have to know my girls and the kind of relationship we have.) I wanted to learn more about potential side effects. I also knew it only protected against some strains of HPV and that there are many other causes of cervical cancer. In addition, regular pap smears are still the best defense against cervical cancer. I am not against Gardasil, but I think it's a decision that should be made based on what's right for each girl, when the time is right. We've talked about it periodically and I haven't felt it was necessary for them at the time.

clear vision, I do not want an upding from you. I still think you are delusional about vaccinations in general.

390 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:40:24pm

re: #369 clear vision

Certainly.

In this study in Denmark, relative risk of autism in vaccinated children compared to unvaccinated children was 0.82 (CI 0.68 to 1.24).

What does that mean? The vaccinated children were LESS likely to develop autism although the difference was statistically not significant.

MMR vaccine DOES NOT cause autism.

391 esther_ar  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:41:12pm

Oh, joy. I share a country with cloudy_vision.

VAERS is a passive tool for registering alleged vaccine reactions. A complaint to VAERS does not mean the adverse event happened as a result of a vaccine, but if many complaints of the same kind, occurring roughly the same number of days post-vaccination, are registered, this can serve as the basis for a proper study of the connection between a given vaccine and the side effect, usually by the Vaccine Safety Datalink. But anybody can complain to VAERS about just anything - in fact, Dr. Jim Laidler once put in a report how a flu vaccine turned him into the incredible Hulk. I might add that VAERS has lately been misused by anti-vaccine advocates to advance litigation.

Any 'science' based upon VAERS data (and by this, I mean just about any study produced by the Geier father-and-son team) is bogus and misleading.

392 jacksontn  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:42:12pm

re: #389 doppelganglander

DG ... I respect your opinion ... the most common forms of HPV that cause cervical cancer are the ones that the vaccination is for ... it is because it is a sexually transmitted virus that people are against it ... for me ... if I had a daughter ... I would get her the vaccination BEFORE she ever thought about having sex ... even if the first time she had sex was on her wedding night with her husband who claimed to also be a virgin ... pap smears are the best way to detect cervical cancer ... but they detect it after it has begun ... if there is an affective way to prevent it from ever starting ... for my daughter that is what I would choose ...

If the HPV virus was spread by drinking after someone ... imo ... people would not be so against it ...

393 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:43:33pm

re: #388 Cato the Elder

That is plain nonsense. If it were true, how come we don't get polio booster shots throughout life?

The things that do require boosters are a different story.

Let me ask you: If you step on a rusty nail, will you grab a tetanus shot? Or leave it to hygiene and luck?

And if you get bitten by a wild animal, will you take your chances with rabies, or go for the shots?

(My eleven-year old seems to have things under control.)

from the CDC:Although there is not a risk of catching polio in the United States and many other parts of the world, it is still a risk to travelers who are going to certain countries. Polio is a serious disease that can cause paralysis and death. If you are going to one of the countries listed below, CDC recommends that you make sure you are up to date on your polio vaccine. If you are not up to date you will need to get a booster shot.


I know a child who stepped on a rusty nail in her yard. Her parents made sure the wound bled well (tetanus needs anaerobic conditions), put hydrogen peroxide on it frequently (more oxygen), gave her lots of Vitamin C, and prayed a lot. She was unvaccinated and did not get tetanus.

394 esther_ar  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:45:11pm

re: #384 clear vision

Salamantis, thanks for posting those links, I will go into them in depth later.
The research one seems non-rigorous on first glance, though.

I'm not chickening out here, honest, folks, but I've got to get my kids out to school.

Good health to all lizards!

What knowledge base do you have to determine what research is scientifically rigorous and what isn't?

395 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:45:50pm

re: #393 clear vision

There's a graveyard here in Oregon, for a specific local religion, full of children whose parents prayed over them, but who could have been spared with prompt medical attention.

396 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:47:24pm

re: #336 clear vision

More on Quackwatch:
Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases
At trial, under a heated cross-examination by Negrete, Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam.

This was a major revelation since Barrett had provided supposed expert testimony as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a legal expert even though he had no formal legal training.

The most damning testimony before the jury, under the intense cross-examination by Negrete, was that Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial.

A classic 3500 year old Greek ad hominem logical fallacy in action; smear the messenger if you cannot refute the message. The information and links stand and fall on their own merits, without regard to their source.

2 + 2 = 4, even if Hitler agrees.

And 2 + 2 doesn't = 5, even if Vaclev Havel thinks it does.

397 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:47:32pm

re: #390 meeshlr

Certainly.

In this study in Denmark, relative risk of autism in vaccinated children compared to unvaccinated children was 0.82 (CI 0.68 to 1.24).

What does that mean? The vaccinated children were LESS likely to develop autism although the difference was statistically not significant.

MMR vaccine DOES NOT cause autism.

Criticism of that study:

Summarised by The Cochrane Collaboration's review of MMR safety:

"The follow up of diagnostic records ends one year (31 Dec 1999) after the last day of admission to the cohort. Because of the length of time from birth to diagnosis, it becomes increasingly unlikely that those born later in the cohort could have a diagnosis"

In short, to get the numbers they wanted Madsen et al included children who could not possibly have a diagnosis and when the data was re analysed to correct Madsen's "error" it produced the opposite conclusion.

398 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:48:03pm

re: #393 clear vision

I'm glad she was not infected, but a shot would still have been a good idea. Just because your survive not taking precautions against disease does not mean you should not have taken saidsame precautions. It just means you got lucky (though some of the parents actions were valid measures against infection).

399 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:50:00pm

re: #394 esther_ar

What knowledge base do you have to determine what research is scientifically rigorous and what isn't?

I do not claim to be an expert, but I know that choosing samples to analyze can be more or less representative, and size also matters. As does followup and verification. This research was based on automatic phone calls to households, and I saw nothing about verification.

400 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:51:11pm

re: #393 clear vision

(My eleven-year old seems to have things under control.)

from the CDC:Although there is not a risk of catching polio in the United States and many other parts of the world, it is still a risk to travelers who are going to certain countries. Polio is a serious disease that can cause paralysis and death. If you are going to one of the countries listed below, CDC recommends that you make sure you are up to date on your polio vaccine. If you are not up to date you will need to get a booster shot.

Okay; that's one disease; how many do NOT require booster shots? Does smallpox?

I know a child who stepped on a rusty nail in her yard. Her parents made sure the wound bled well (tetanus needs anaerobic conditions), put hydrogen peroxide on it frequently (more oxygen), gave her lots of Vitamin C, and prayed a lot. She was unvaccinated and did not get tetanus.

Anecdotal. They got lucky. If their child HAD contracted tetanus, they would have cursed their decision till the day they died.

401 clear vision  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:52:08pm

re: #398 Dark_Falcon

I'm glad she was not infected, but a shot would still have been a good idea. Just because your survive not taking precautions against disease does not mean you should not have taken saidsame precautions. It just means you got lucky (though some of the parents actions were valid measures against infection).

Actually, a shot won't help in time after the injury. You'd need gamma globulin, made from someone else's blood. That's a big risk on its own.

402 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:52:12pm

re: #392 jacksontn

My girls will absolutely be getting Gardasil at some point. I do not have the kind of ridiculous, religious objections that Salamantis describes. I'm sure people who think that also think AIDS is God's punishment for those eeevil hom'sexshuals.

Pap smears can also catch precancerous cell changes, so they're valuable from that standpoint too.

403 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:53:29pm

re: #394 esther_ar

What knowledge base do you have to determine what research is scientifically rigorous and what isn't?

How she feels about their conclusions. And that is determined by whether they reinforce or undermine her preconceived prejudices.

404 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:53:46pm

re: #397 clear vision

Well, it must have been the other direction but still not significant because the Cochrane review of 31 studies concluded that the MMR vaccine is not associated with increased risk of autism.

405 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:54:17pm

re: #381 EmmmieG

Twenty years ago, there would have been no diagnosis.

Thirty-one years ago, I refused to speak to any adult that was not directly related to me. Not a peep. It caused my family great concern.

What was wrong with me? I was intensely shy. I got over it within the next year.

I sometimes wonder what disorder I would be diagnosed with if I were the same kid growing up in today's hysterical environment.

Disclaimer: The above is a personal anecdote, and not at all derived from, nor based upon, any credible, scientific study. Just one man's experience, not at all indicative of any objectively observable, documentable, replicable trend.

/JUST. LIKE. THAT.

406 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:54:19pm

This is really bad.

We apparently have a serious anti-vaccination propagandist who's focused on LGF as a place to promote their garbage.

I'm blocking this person's account, before it can post any more of this stuff, mislead any more parents, and destroy any more lives.

407 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:55:29pm

re: #405 Slumbering Behemoth

Thirty-one years ago, I refused to speak to any adult that was not directly related to me. Not a peep. It caused my family great concern.

What was wrong with me? I was intensely shy. I got over it within the next year.

I sometimes wonder what disorder I would be diagnosed with if I were the same kid growing up in today's hysterical environment.

Disclaimer: The above is a personal anecdote, and not at all derived from, nor based upon, any credible, scientific study. Just one man's experience, not at all indicative of any objectively observable, documentable, replicable trend.

/JUST. LIKE. THAT.

Well, I hid under the desk during kindergarten ;)

408 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:55:36pm

re: #401 clear vision

Actually, a shot won't help in time after the injury. You'd need gamma globulin, made from someone else's blood. That's a big risk on its own.

What one should do is keep current on one's tetanus immunization. One never knows when the next possibly infecting wound will occur.

409 JacksonTn  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:56:35pm

re: #408 Salamantis

What one should do is keep current on one's tetanus immunization. One never knows when the next possibly infecting wound will occur.

Sal ... BEWARE THE LOCKJAW ... dang how many rusty nails did I step on as a child ... many ...

410 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:57:15pm

re: #408 Salamantis

What one should do is keep current on one's tetanus immunization. One never knows when the next possibly infecting wound will occur.

I think I already said this, but on our last trip to the doctor for the boys' check-ups, I assured them they would not get a shot. I promised them no shots.

Guess what? They were doing tetanus boosters for...wait for it...the parents.

They thought it was really, really funnny.

411 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:58:20pm

re: #397 clear vision

Criticism of that study:

Summarised by The Cochrane Collaboration's review of MMR safety:

"The follow up of diagnostic records ends one year (31 Dec 1999) after the last day of admission to the cohort. Because of the length of time from birth to diagnosis, it becomes increasingly unlikely that those born later in the cohort could have a diagnosis"

In short, to get the numbers they wanted Madsen et al included children who could not possibly have a diagnosis and when the data was re analysed to correct Madsen's "error" it produced the opposite conclusion.

Did you not post a link to that because it is from an antivax troofer site?

Yep:

[Link: childhealthsafety.wordpress.com...]

412 esther_ar  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:58:23pm

re: #399 clear vision

I do not claim to be an expert, but I know that choosing samples to analyze can be more or less representative, and size also matters. As does followup and verification. This research was based on automatic phone calls to households, and I saw nothing about verification.

Quite right. Except the telephone survey you mention was carried out by Generation Rescue. You know...the same peeps who are pushing the scientifically dead autism/vaccine link!

413 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 9:58:28pm

re: #399 clear vision

I do not claim to be an expert, but I know that choosing samples to analyze can be more or less representative, and size also matters. As does followup and verification. This research was based on automatic phone calls to households, and I saw nothing about verification.

Random calls to households could actually be biased towards finding an association since parents of children with autism are more likely to remember and report vaccinations because they are looking for the "cause" of the autism. This is called recall bias. If a study susceptible to recall bias doesn't find an association, I would consider that to be very interesting.

414 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:00:25pm
415 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:00:39pm

*sigh* I have to leave work and voyage home. Just in time to miss Stinky's smack down. At least I found my clue by four......

416 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:00:56pm

re: #399 clear vision

I do not claim to be an expert, but I know that choosing samples to analyze can be more or less representative, and size also matters. As does followup and verification. This research was based on automatic phone calls to households, and I saw nothing about verification.

A study that contains hundreds of thousand of children is far more likely to be correct than one that contains just a few, and thiomerisol studies showing that UNvaccinated kids are just as likely to contract autism, or more so, than vaccinated kids, contained that many kids.

417 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:02:41pm

re: #393 clear vision

from the CDC:Although there is not a risk of catching polio in the United States and many other parts of the world, it is still a risk to travelers who are going to certain countries. Polio is a serious disease that can cause paralysis and death. If you are going to one of the countries listed below, CDC recommends that you make sure you are up to date on your polio vaccine. If you are not up to date you will need to get a booster shot.

So I stand corrected. Polio booster shots. Thanks.

Would you get one if you were going to one of those countries, or rely on your hamsa?

I know a child who stepped on a rusty nail in her yard. Her parents made sure the wound bled well (tetanus needs anaerobic conditions), put hydrogen peroxide on it frequently (more oxygen), gave her lots of Vitamin C, and prayed a lot. She was unvaccinated and did not get tetanus.

Bleeding. The stuff used to bleach your hair. Vitamins. Prayer.

And there we have it.

What would you say to someone who did all that and still their child gets tetanus? And you didn't answer my rabies question. Prayer there, too, that the stray dog with the drooling chops was perfectly healthy? Rather than take a shot, because it's "unnatural"?

I'll tell you a little story about faith.

A woman living in the path of a major flood is told to evacuate. She says, "God will save me. I'll rely on God."

An hour later, the water is up to her front porch. A National Guard skiff comes by and offers her a ride. "No, I'll rely on God. God will save me."

Two hours later the water is up to her second floor windows. She is wet, bedraggled, and cold. Another boat arrives and orders her to get in. "No, the Lord will keep me in his loving care. Thanks, but I'm staying."

Three hours after that, she is up on the roof, the waters about to overwhelm the top of the house.

A helicopter flies over, lowers a rescue harness, and demands that she use it. "No, God keeps his promises. He will be my rescuer."

Half an hour later she is dead and floating down the river that used to be her street.

She gets up to heaven and the first thing she does is complain. "Why didn't you save me, I had faith in you!"

God looks down at his book of life, pauses, then looks her straight in the eye.

"What are you kvetching about? I sent you two boats and a helicopter."

Like I said, you go ahead and rely on luck. I'll take the help God has given us through the use of human reason and invention.

418 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:04:23pm

Clear Vision's account is blocked. I'm not going to allow people to use LGF to promote this insanity.

419 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:05:45pm

re: #418 Charles

Clear Vision's account is blocked. I'm not going to allow people to use LGF to promote this insanity.

I understand, but damn, I wanted to hear her reaction to my little story...

420 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:06:33pm

re: #414 Iron Fist

I've got a boy in my science class that, after I showed them what happened when you mixed a flame and hydrogen gas (it was only a small puff ball of flame), was trying to use that information to design a flaming arrow that somehow could use hydrogen gas in a glass orb to produce a nice big puff ball of flame.

I was glad I hadn't shown them how to produce the hydrogen gas. (Hydrochloric acid on a couple of zinc screws).

My diagnosis: This kid will go far in life.

421 Lynn B.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:08:08pm

re: #272 clear vision

Just what Israel needs, on top of everything else.

Not.

422 BlueCanuck  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:09:21pm

re: #419 Cato the Elder

It doesn't matter, I doubt that she would get to the underlying truth of it at all. Some people are just born stubborn.

423 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:12:05pm

re: #422 BlueCanuck

It doesn't matter, I doubt that she would get to the underlying truth of it at all. Some people are just born stubborn.

Stub-born? ;^)

424 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:12:14pm

This isn't just fun and games, folks. People are dying because of this madness, and diseases are coming back. Discussion about the subject is one thing -- spreading deceptive propaganda is entirely another. The anti-vaccination freaks have plenty of places where they can spread that crap. LGF is not going to be one of them.

425 meeshlr  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:13:14pm

re: #406 Charles

This is really bad.

We apparently have a serious anti-vaccination propagandist who's focused on LGF as a place to promote their garbage.

I'm blocking this person's account, before it can post any more of this stuff, mislead any more parents, and destroy any more lives.

Darn.

I was actually having fun.

I once chased someone out of the lounge by refuting her anti-immunization nonsense. I wasn't mean but I wasn't going to let that stuff stand without a rebuttal.

426 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:15:57pm

re: #418 Charles

Clear Vision's account is blocked. I'm not going to allow people to use LGF to promote this insanity.

Thank you Charles. She wouldn't cite facts from any reputable site or source and was peddling nonsense that could get people killed.

427 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:17:01pm

re: #272 clear vision

I read about a case here in Israel where a young man died who had hyper amounts of tetanus antibodies in his system.

I imagine 'hyper' amounts of many things in the body would kill most folks.

428 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:17:02pm

re: #407 EmmmieG

Well, I hid under the desk during kindergarten ;)

Does that have anything to do with this?

429 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:17:40pm

re: #428 Slumbering Behemoth

Does that have anything to do with this?

No, just shy.

430 Lynn B.  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:19:38pm

re: #424 Charles

This isn't just fun and games, folks. People are dying because of this madness, and diseases are coming back. Discussion about the subject is one thing -- spreading deceptive propaganda is entirely another. The anti-vaccination freaks have plenty of places where they can spread that crap. LGF is not going to be one of them.

Israeli hospitals are busy and crowded enough. It makes me a little bit crazy that this woman has introduced eight un-immunized kids into the population who will no doubt be equally fruitful, multiply and spread the craziness as well as put others at risk.

431 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:22:23pm

re: #430 Lynn B.

Israeli hospitals are busy and crowded enough. It makes me a little bit crazy that this woman has introduced eight un-immunized kids into the population who will no doubt be equally fruitful, multiply and spread the craziness as well as put others at risk.

It's horrifying.

432 bungie  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:24:27pm

re: #419 Cato the Elder

I'm suspicious about Clear Vision- she doesn't ring true. I wonder if "she" was really a mom of several children. etc. Throughout this thread she never wavered, she was not responsive, she just came coming back with stuff that sounded like it was copied from some kind of tract or pamphlet. She was so lacking in introspection, I doubted that she really was a mother who had done this to her children. I think if that were true the psychology would have been different as she was posting down this thread. I've never seen someone keep it up so long before with so many people down-dinging and arguing with her. Normally, posters get mad or react. She didn't react she just kept up her propagandizing. It was freaky. Reminded me of those women in prairie dresses at that compound in Texas.

So I don't think she would have responded naturally to your story. She's either a fake or brainwashed.

433 Jack Burton  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:26:25pm

re: #424 Charles

This isn't just fun and games, folks. People are dying because of this madness, and diseases are coming back. Discussion about the subject is one thing -- spreading deceptive propaganda is entirely another. The anti-vaccination freaks have plenty of places where they can spread that crap. LGF is not going to be one of them.

Good. The slight headache I had from work today was getting worse with each comment CV made, but I couldn't let this bullshit slide. If the antivax people were only affecting themselves, I'd say "knock yourself out then sport," but children are dying because of this and we have to worry about TB and fucking POLIO again now.

I now have a full blown migraine complete with pain in my shoulders and back, nausea, and slightly blurred vision. Time for the horse pills and bed. Have fun in the LNDT people.

434 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:33:51pm

re: #424 Charles

This isn't just fun and games, folks. People are dying because of this madness, and diseases are coming back. Discussion about the subject is one thing -- spreading deceptive propaganda is entirely another. The anti-vaccination freaks have plenty of places where they can spread that crap. LGF is not going to be one of them.

Every time I googled a phrase out of one of her replies it proved to be copied and pasted from one anti-vax troofer site or another - and she had several of them at her fingertips.

So an anti-vax troofer propagandist:? Yes, she was most definitely that. That indeed is what she was.

435 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:34:39pm

re: #424 Charles

This isn't just fun and games, folks. People are dying because of this madness, and diseases are coming back. Discussion about the subject is one thing -- spreading deceptive propaganda is entirely another. The anti-vaccination freaks have plenty of places where they can spread that crap. LGF is not going to be one of them.

That was the second time in as many vaccination threads that an anti-vaxxer has brought up scarlet fever. I think they must have quote mines like the creationists or something.

436 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:39:27pm

Holy shit. I just googled "scarlet fever vaccine" and yep, here's the quote mine/"scientific study" site:

[Link: www.vaclib.org...]

The creationists/IDers are nuts and all that, but these people are actually causing kids to die or suffer life long complications from diseases like rubeola, whooping cough, tetanus, etc.

I just can't believe it.

437 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 10:47:51pm

re: #434 Salamantis

I really had no idea that kind of crap was out there, with all kinds of graphs to make it look like science.

I was listening to Dr. Dean Edell one day on the radio, and he started talking about all the chain emails going around with supposedly scientific explanations about aspartame's causing lupus or whatever. His response? Just because something sounds confusing doesn't make it science (or something similar).

438 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:20:43pm

Clearly vaccines are unsafe. Huffpo says so, and the scientific authorities are just trying to enforce their hegemonic logico-centric western white male protestant heterodominatrixicism on the brave protesters and doubters.

You can check this for yourself. Just look at all the big words and snide put-downs in the `fire marshall Bill' post. This isn't a fair minded man who's willing to see both sides of every issue. He sounds like he thinks he's right because so-called scientists say so and the data says so. Where is his sympathy for grieving lawyers who dedicated years of their life to preparing cases against the deep pockets of the pharm companies? Their mansions are gone up in smoke now.

Any time anybody suffers anything, it's got to be somebody's fault. There's no such thing as fate. The book of Job has no lessons for us.

/how do they manage to find an audience willing to heed their drivel?

439 esther_ar  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:32:28pm

I don't know, Charles. cloudy_vision's posts can be a springboard for some great teaching moments about how effective and beneficial vaccines really are. Not for CV herself, but for lurkers and other posters. It helps keep them away from the Age of Autism antivax echo chamber, if only temporarily.

440 kynna  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:37:27pm

I'm late, but what a great thread! A keeper. Clear Vision was dangerous and annoying, but the responses were excellent, and fully backed. Love it!

But Charles is right. Such a propagandist must be sent away. She/he/it was spouting 'truthy' science rather than reality and that's going to introduce some potential doubts to some parents. I already know some on the anti-vax bandwagon and they're so freaking emotional about it, you don't even want to try to convince them otherwise.

Salamantis -- great debating -- I bow to you and my fully-vaccinated children thank you. :D

441 funky chicken  Thu, Apr 23, 2009 11:41:38pm

One Dr. Dean Edell video on vaccination. I found a bunch of links to websites run by right wing types bashing Edell for being a liberal (true) vaccine pusher.

sad

[Link: www.healthcentral.com...]

I do wish the left could claim all the anti-vaxxers as their own.

442 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:14:27am

re: #21 Buster Bunny

The one to watch for is Tuberculosis. The only reason that was under control is because we fought it hand tooth and nail. But its on a resurgence because some people think its just not worth treating.

You think measles is a worry .. try spending the last few days of your life coughing the inner parts of your lungs up ..

Fun fun fun.


Even worse - TB requires long treatment for complete eradication. This only involves taking pills, but you need to take them for several weeks, sometimes months, then have an exam to ensure that the disease has been eliminated. Unfortunately, there is often no follow up; patients start taking their meds, feel better in a week or two, then blow off the remainder of the treatment. This is a breeding ground for drug-resistant variants, and these have arisen right on cue as a result of this lacksadaisical treatment.

There needs to be a more certain way of following up these cases. If a shorter, more certain course of treatment cannot be found, then there needs to be a database kept of reported cases, their treatment, and the resolution of the case, with mandatory followups where the disease hasn't been confirmed eradicated.

443 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:18:09am

re: #393 clear vision

(My eleven-year old seems to have things under control.)

from the CDC:Although there is not a risk of catching polio in the United States and many other parts of the world, it is still a risk to travelers who are going to certain countries. Polio is a serious disease that can cause paralysis and death. If you are going to one of the countries listed below, CDC recommends that you make sure you are up to date on your polio vaccine. If you are not up to date you will need to get a booster shot.


I know a child who stepped on a rusty nail in her yard. Her parents made sure the wound bled well (tetanus needs anaerobic conditions), put hydrogen peroxide on it frequently (more oxygen), gave her lots of Vitamin C, and prayed a lot. She was unvaccinated and did not get tetanus.

Roughly 60% of those who contract smallpox don't manage to die from it.

What the f_ck was your point?

444 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:50:29am

Simple solution:

When I was growing up and in elementary school, the school would periodically herd all the kids down to the gym for their vaccinations. No ifs, ands or buts - time for your shot, or sugar cube, or skin prick, or whatever was involved. Not an issue at the time, because apparently people actually had brains back then - or could remember when the diseases being immunized against were scourges that ravaged countless people. Anyway, I don't recall anyone opting out.

I don't think this is done anymore, at least around here. You're supposed to provide proof that you kid has been immunized when they enter the school system, but if they haven't been you just sign another form, and that's the end of it. They don't even ask for justification anymore.

Time to bring this simple, sensible approach back for the good of society. And if your kid isn't immunized, they aren't allowed in the public schools. Period. End of story.

445 David IV of Georgia  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:55:07am

Even if vaccinations did cause autism (an unproven assertion),
These diseases are so awful that we should still vaccinate.
Early vaccines were sometimes as bad as the disease,
yet the diseases were so bad that people still received them.

446 marge45b  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 5:32:24am

re: #91 pingjockey

My Mom had polio at 16. As a child we were all lined up and given our vaccinations no questions asked. Polio is a crippling disease. Mom said she did not want us to go though it.
I had my kids later than most, and that does increase the chances of Autism. Autism runs in my husband's family (older brother) and AD/HD is in my family. Both of our kids have autism. We did all the vaccines for both.
Autism can be dealt with. It takes work but my kids are great. You have to work on social skills and learning to communicate properly. I have to break down simple every day steps (dressing, going to bathroom, eating meals, etc.) to remind them were they are and what is the next step. It becomes a drill each day but they do learn. Being consistent is the key. Next is to get as much therapy as you can. Speech, OT, PT, etc. Both with the school and outside if insurance will pay. Getting an advocate to go to school meetings is a must. (Especially one who knows autism). Work on social skills as much as possible. Play dates are great with kids who don't have disabilities. Learning to behave in social situations is important. I always took the girls to library story times. It taught them to be quiet and learn to sit still to listen. I treat them as normal as possible. They can go to restaurants and behave (Table manners is a very important OT skill). I found that the autistic child does not like change and needs to know specifics instead of generalizing. Once you figure out what sets them off you avoid that situation.

447 FrogMarch  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 5:51:41am

Hollywad: folks filled with ego so big they actually think they are scientists.

448 FrogMarch  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 5:55:03am
I sometimes think that the twit who created HuffPo, Arianna Huffington, likes the attention that turds dropped onto her blog by quackery boosters of the like of Kim Evans. Certainly, the HuffPo editors seem utterly untroubled that, among physicians and medical scientists, HuffPo is viewed with utter contempt and ridicule.

...

449 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:44:42am

re: #107 clear vision

The epidemic diseases you think that vaccinations have reduced were reducing themselves well before the vaccinations came out. There are charts that show this.

If you doubt that, think of scarlet fever -- it made Laura Ingalls sister blind, Helen Keller blind and deaf, my mother (in her seventies) remembers fearing it -- but where is it today? AND THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A VACCINATION FOR IT!

Total unmitigated bull droppings. My son had scarlet fever at the age of 2 and had to be hospitalized with a fever of 106. Thank goodness he didn't have long term damage.

Do me a favor and find another way to take your genes out of the pool that doesn't involve having my family at risk from exposure to your unvaccinated and potentially infectious family.

450 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:45:34am

re: #444 SixDegrees

Simple solution:

When I was growing up and in elementary school, the school would periodically herd all the kids down to the gym for their vaccinations. No ifs, ands or buts - time for your shot, or sugar cube, or skin prick, or whatever was involved. Not an issue at the time, because apparently people actually had brains back then - or could remember when the diseases being immunized against were scourges that ravaged countless people. Anyway, I don't recall anyone opting out.

I don't think this is done anymore, at least around here. You're supposed to provide proof that you kid has been immunized when they enter the school system, but if they haven't been you just sign another form, and that's the end of it. They don't even ask for justification anymore.

Time to bring this simple, sensible approach back for the good of society. And if your kid isn't immunized, they aren't allowed in the public schools. Period. End of story.

Yep. If you want to opt out of vaccination, there are private schools.

451 Orangutan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:48:43am

Nothing funnier than when celebrities believe their entourage, and it leaks out.

452 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:51:54am

re: #331 spacejesus

knowing that america is a country where hollywood celebrities are accorded the same media attention regarding medicine as scientists and doctors makes me cry from outter space

Jesus, How long have you been on the Mexican space station? I didn't even know they had one.

453 nihilist  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:11:00am

Jim Carrey might not be a scientist but he actually raises some excellent points in that article. Since HuffPo is nearly 100% trash I haven't been there in about a year, I had no idea that Jim Carrey even blogs or whatever. I'd prefer my science coming from a "real scientist", not an actor, but that doesn't discount his opinion and he does quote people who know more than he does...

Whether or not vaccines are in any way linked to autism is actually not even the most important question. The most important question is the one raised by the former NIH official he quoted regarding exposure to toxins or foreign substances extremely early in life (the first few days after birth) when tightly-choreographed and delicate developmental processes are taking place; does this exposure trigger an abnormal immune response that causes delays or regression in neurological development?

Psychologists widely agree that many of the developmental milestones of early childhood need to occur "on time" or else the body and brain will fail to thrive.

The incidence of autism in the US has risen dramatically. Some of the statistics are staggering and bewildering. Until there is a better explanation of how this is occurring suddenly, there will be anti-vaccination activists and others who think they know what is causing it. History is replete with examples of medical advances turning out to be harmful to humans, and of medications turning out to have deadly unintended side-effects. It hardly takes much imagination to consider than vaccines given in the first few days of life (or any insult to the newborn's immune system) could be causing adverse effects.

Enough medical evidence and research exists for both sides of the argument to keep arguing for years to come. I personally don't think vaccines are causing autism, but I also recognize that there are too many unanswered questions for me to pass judgment on this right now, and the stakes are certainly too high to just ridicule Jim Carrey and then forget about it...

454 Shug  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:27:38am

This is the best line from this fantastic article

the plural of "anecdotes" is not "data."

I love it. I have a new favorite saying!

455 jorline  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:40:44am

re: #442 SixDegrees

Even worse - TB requires long treatment for complete eradication. This only involves taking pills, but you need to take them for several weeks, sometimes months, then have an exam to ensure that the disease has been eliminated. Unfortunately, there is often no follow up; patients start taking their meds, feel better in a week or two, then blow off the remainder of the treatment. This is a breeding ground for drug-resistant variants, and these have arisen right on cue as a result of this lacksadaisical treatment.

There needs to be a more certain way of following up these cases. If a shorter, more certain course of treatment cannot be found, then there needs to be a database kept of reported cases, their treatment, and the resolution of the case, with mandatory followups where the disease hasn't been confirmed eradicated.

My TB treatment is for nine months....300mg of Isoniazid daily. I'm currently in the fourth month.

456 EaterOfFood  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:54:45am

Jim Carrey just proved there's no vaccination against stupidity.

re: #87 Occasional Reader

Hugo Chavez cheerleader... anti-science idiot... the Kennedy family are just moving from strength to strength, aren't they?

Not to mention he believes corn growers are worse than Al-Qaeda. For every Kennedy that gets killed, many of the ones who survive shame the family name.

457 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:09:29am

Strep throat/scarlet fever information that explains why numbers of cases of scarlet fever have dropped so sharply, and why it isn't fatal or tied to epidemics like in the past:

[Link: www.southernnevadahealthdistrict.org...]

[Link: www.cdc.gov...]

Just in case any lurkers out there might be swayed by that lunatic's arguments...the reason scarlet fever isn't the scourge it was ... ANTIBIOTICS

458 meeshlr  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:17:17am

re: #444 SixDegrees

Simple solution:

Time to bring this simple, sensible approach back for the good of society. And if your kid isn't immunized, they aren't allowed in the public schools. Period. End of story.

When I was in university, you had to prove that you had a recent MMR booster or you couldn't register for second semester. Dorms are ideal for quick spread of infectious diseases.

459 meeshlr  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:19:53am

re: #453 nihilist

The incidence of DIAGNOSIS of autism has risen dramatically.
It's impossible to verify how many cases went undiagnosed in the past.

460 meeshlr  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:20:33am

re: #454 Shug

This is the best line from this fantastic article

the plural of "anecdotes" is not "data."

I love it. I have a new favorite saying!

That screams for a t-shirt. Or at least a sign in my office.

461 dahozho  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:24:31am

There's some more anti-vax madness coming down the pipe-- was talking with one of my co-workers (who I like, but she's terribly prone to believing this kind of cr*p without doing some critical thinking), and she was going on about how vaccines "caused AIDS."

I hadn't actually heard this one and googled it, and sure enough, there's moonbats who are promoting the theory that an experimental hepatitis vaccine from the early 70s "caused" AIDS in the test populations that included gay men and South Africans. Good grief. (This is from the Rev. Wright crowd.)

I did tell her that current research indicates the HIV virus in humans as early as the 40-50s; and this virus has been mutating into current strains for much longer than the early 70s. She's unconvinced, but maybe she'll do some more reading. Sigh.

462 bungie  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:28:30am

Unless practices have changed drastically since I had my children twenty years ago and I don't believe they have, vaccines are NOT given in the "first few days of life." My records show the first DTP vaccine and Polio at about 2 !/2 months. The DTP is diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. The MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) was first given at about 1 year and 3 months.

I don't understand why anyone would choose to follow a Hollywood celebrity for any reason. They are a dysfunctional, unintelligent lot. Most are completely uneducated; it is common for them to not even have a high school education since they often begin their careers early and it interferes with getting an education.

463 Caboose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:01:38pm

He's got to agree with his moonbat-s#it wife or else he ain't gonna get none o' that sweet Hollyweird poon...

464 nihilist  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 5:55:55pm

#460 meeshlr, that is an excellent point. As a grad student in medicine though I can tell you that these children are not without problems, they fit under the Autism spectrum disorder umbrella, and they have a syndrome that many other children are also exhibiting, and which has not been recognized as any type of clinical entity until very recently.

I am sure, like with Ritalin, there is over-diagnosing (these things are like fads in some ways), but the problem is real and appears to be growing almost exponentially.

465 jwpaine  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:22:50pm

I fully support the anti-vaccination crowd. The sooner these idiots remove their stupidity from the human gene pool, the better. The human race needs some tough love right now, and permitting idiots to suffer the consequences of their own actions unhindered would be an excellent place to start.

466 Salamantis  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 4:41:04pm

re: #465 jwpaine

I fully support the anti-vaccination crowd. The sooner these idiots remove their stupidity from the human gene pool, the better. The human race needs some tough love right now, and permitting idiots to suffer the consequences of their own actions unhindered would be an excellent place to start.

I cannot agree. Acquiescing in the deaths of innocent children simply because their parents are deranged by some bizarre conspiracy theory is morally unconscionable.

467 jwpaine  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 7:12:29am

I don't have a "no sparrow shall fall" perspective on protecting homo sap. from his various stupidities. Good luck with yours.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 154 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1