Robert Spencer Confirmed to Attend Eurofascist Conference

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Yesterday when we posted about the participation of Pamela Geller (owner of “Atlas Shrugs”) in a German anti-Islam conference organized by a group with extensive ties to neo-Nazis, the latest word was that Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch had not yet confirmed his participation.

Today “Pro Köln” has announced that Spencer will be a speaker at the conference: Translated version of “Robert Spencer on 9 May in Cologne”.

Major Islam critic speaks at the anti-Islamisierungskongress on 9 May

The list of international guests who are on anti-Islamisierungskongress of 8 to 10 May participate does not stop. Now, with Robert Spencer, one of the world’s best known and most respected Islam critic for his coming to the 9th May agreed. The 47-year-old American is currently a director of his organization created “DjihadWatch” action, whose goals in a focused collection of extremist Islam and aspirations of an awareness about the backgrounds of militant jihad are.

At this high amplification of the pool of international guests expressed the chairman of the pro-motion, Markus Beisicht lawyer: “I am very pleased that Robert Spencer is such a designated Religious Studies and Islam critic his participation in our anti-Islamisierungskongress has pledged. This shows that we are on the international scene and arrived in the focus of world public. Globally, the challenge of Islam in our culture and the community of world religions is an issue that many people.

“…With our convention, we critique Islam is a sufficiently large forum. I very much hope that the warnings from Robert Spencer on 9 Mai also in Cologne and in Germany, will be heard.”

A photo of Beisicht (right) with Filip DeWinter of the Belgian neofascist party Vlaams Belang:

Spiegel Online has more information on Markus Beisicht, quoted above praising the participation of Robert Spencer: New Front for the German Far Right : Anti-Islamic Party Is Playing With Fear.

The methods of the anti-mosque movement have been studied by far-right groups in other countries, like Austria’s FPÖ (“Austrian Freedom Party”) and Belgium’s Vlaams Belang (“Flemish Interest”) party. In November, Markus Beisicht gave a special presentation on the Cologne movement to FPÖ members in Graz. “We will lead our fight across Europe,” he told them, “whether it’s in Graz, Cologne or Vienna.” He’s invited friends from the FPÖ, Vlaams Belang and France’s National Front to a big “Anti-Islam Congress” in Cologne next September.

Beisicht is a lawyer who once belonged to Germany’s far-right Republikaner (REP). Like a number of executive Pro NRW members, he’s cultivated links to the radical right for years. With members of the “German League for Home and Folk,” in the early ‘90s, he laid a 1,000-mark bounty on the location of an immigrant woman who had applied for asylum in Germany and then disappeared underground. Rouhs, his right-hand man, was a member of the NPD. And André Picker, a lawyer on the party’s executive board, once represented a neo-Nazi band called The White Wolves, who had trouble with the German government over lines like “Clear out the Jews and wake up Germany” (“Juda verrecke und Deutschland erwache”).

And still more information on the neo-Nazi connections of this group: Translated version of “The Thunder in Cologne”. (Improved translation by Øyvind Strømmen.)

With Pro-Köln there are a number of neo-nazis. The party tries to distance itself from this sort of groups publicly, and for instance asked themselves for politce intervention against around 50 skinheads from the NPD. A number of leaders of the Pro Köln does however come from the radical neo-Nazi organisation themselves (somewhat inaccurate, NPD is assuredly fascist, but hardly “radical neo-Nazi,” my note), next to others that come from the Republicans (a small fascist party, my note). These figures formed the movement Pro Köln together 10 years ago. The leader of Pro Köln, Manfred Roush, was the regional leader of the NPD Youth in the late 1980s.

Amongst the guests of honour at the demonstration of Pro Köln were Bart Debie of the Vlaams Belang, but also Reinhard Günzel, a supporter of the nazi Hermann Göring. Günzel is a former military man which once told his soliders that they should show the same discipline as ”the Spartans, the Romans or the Waffen-SS“. On the demonstration last Satuday, the former (police) agent Debie and the former military man Günzel showed their united opposition against ”the Islam“. The call of Pro Köln was clear: opposition against the expansion of a mosque, but also against Islam in general.

Pro Köln still has friendly ties with known neo-nazis. Alex Reitz is one of the most well-known neo-nazis in Germany. In 1999 he offered his help for the election campaign of Pro Köln. Below you will see a picture of Reitz together with the leader of Pro Köln, Manfred Rouhs. At the time it was also done work together with extreme right criminals such as Ulrich Klöries, who was convicted to 15 years in prison for murder. Klöries was a candidate for the list DLVH - a forerunner list for Pro Köln - in 1994 (you will find a picture of Rouhs together with Klöries) below. Another candidate of the DLVH (German League for Volk and Heimat) was Thomas Adolf which was responsible for a triple murder in 2003 and was convicted for this. Manfred Rouhs and Markus Beisichts were then already the leading figures of DLVH.

Really lovely friends you have there, Mr. Spencer.

UPDATE at 4/24/09 10:11:23 am:

Also scheduled to share the stage with Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller at the “Pro Koln” event: Petra Edelmannova.

The head of an ultra-right wing party which advocates a “final solution” for Roma in the Czech Republic is due to speak at the annual festival held by the British National party today. Petra Edelmannova, chair of the Czech National party, is booked to give a 25-minute speech at the BNP’s Red White and Blue festival in the village of Denby in Derbyshire.

The event faces strong opposition from local residents and anti-racism campaigners who are mounting a demonstration. The protest has been organised by a number of groups including Unite Against Facism (UAF), Love Music Hate Racism and Derby Racial Equality Council. The TUC and unions CWU and Unite are giving their support. UAF said it was expecting more than 500 people and coaches from around the country.

Edelmannova’s party recently announced it was working on a 150-page “study” called The Final Solution to the Gypsy Issue in the Czech Lands, which it said it would present as part of a 2010 general election campaign.

Although the title evokes the Nazi plan to eradicate Jews in wartime Germany, the party told Lidove Noviny, a national Czech newspaper, its aim is only to offer Roma voluntary relocation to land bought in India. The NS is a marginal party in the Czech Republic, gaining only 0.17% of votes in the 2006 parliamentary elections. Judy Mallaber, MP for Amber Valley, said she had deep concerns. “[The BNP’s] attempts to present a respectable image are still masking some deeply disturbing underlying views.”

Simon Darby, deputy leader of the BNP, said: “There is a Gypsy problem there. What’s wrong with people who talk frankly about their problems?”

UPDATE at 4/25/09 9:30:56 am:

Please see an important update to this post: Classic Misdirection from Spencer and Geller.

UPDATE at 4/27/09 8:34:34 am:

Since a number of websites, especially in Germany, are now repeating an absolutely false claim that I “forged” the photograph of Filip DeWinter and Markus Beisicht above and linking to this post as some sort of “proof,” I’m duplicating my post on the issue here:

Apparently, one of the photos I used to illustrate my post yesterday about the neo-facscist and outright neo-Nazi connections of the “pro Koln” conference in Germany was altered:

This photograph:

Which I discovered, ironically, at a pro-fascist website through Google Images: Translated version of Markus Beisicht (per NRW): “Islamization fight!”

Spencer and Geller have turned up another version of the photo (without saying where they got it):

Which one is the real photo and which is the altered one? It’s not obvious from examining the pictures, but clearly, one of them was altered.

But it’s a meaningless distinction. The point of posting the photograph was not to show Filip DeWinter of the Vlaams Belang and Markus Beisicht of Pro Koln in front of a demonstration — it was very obviously to show that they are associates.

The photograph Spencer and Geller have posted merely confirms that fact. And it’s very easy to find more photographs of DeWinter and Beisicht together — at the Pro Koln website itself.

Both of them are screaming about the “fauxtography,” to divert your attention from the fascist connections of these people — which, you may notice, they don’t dispute.

Pamela Geller has always been into these dishonest techniques, so there’s nothing more to say about her; but it’s sad, and utterly pathetic, to see Robert Spencer resorting to such sleaze.

(They both seem to think I would simply make the picture vanish and deny it was altered; actually, no, that’s not how I work. But it’s telling that they project their own techniques onto me.)

Jump to bottom

416 comments
1 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:39:25am
2 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:41:28am

At first it looked like they might rethink attending but I think ultimately all this attention forced them to go just to defy Charles.

3 VegasRick  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:41:34am

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

It's nice to know all those swasticky buns left over from the Continental breakfasts at Geneva after the delegates walked out will find a good home before they get too stale.

"Sticky buns" are common at San Fran events.

4 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:41:40am

What the hell is wrong with these people?

5 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:41:49am

When will someone explain to him that Nazis are bad?

6 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:44:40am

re: #3 VegasRick

"Sticky buns" are common at San Fran events.

Gah, mental image I didn't need! I'm resisting the "minus" button, but man... yucko!

(pass the bottle of brain bleach, please)

7 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:45:16am

I guess Geller, Spencer, et al. don't realize that if fascism rises in Europe agin they will be the first under the bus. And they'll be lucky if it's a bus.

8 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:45:22am

So I assume that Robert Spencer never criticized Barack Obama for his friendship with Rashid Khalidi and for his 20 year membership in a "church" that lionized Louis Farrakhan?

9 skywagondriver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:45:26am

So sad.

10 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:46:06am

Its not that pam and bob don't know who their new friends are- it's that they don't want the rest of us knowing who their new friends are.

11 Bloodnok  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:46:12am

Defamation! Lawyers! Libel! SMOG!

/Spencer

12 jcm  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:46:37am

We beat the Nazis.
We beat the Commies.

Sick ideology appeals to sick individuals.

Liberty belongs to the eternally vigilant because evil never rests.

Charles is one of the vigilant.

13 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:46:47am

re: #7 Leonidas Hoplite

I guess Geller, Spencer, et al. don't realize that if fascism rises in Europe agin they will be the first under the bus. And they'll be lucky if it's a bus on the cattle cars.

FTFY

14 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:47:12am

Robert, you've turned out to be an enormous disappointment. You don't have to associate with these people to be effective at countering jihad. I'm personally very disappointed in you.

/i know you're reading

15 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:47:32am
16 simonml  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:47:34am

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

It's nice to know all those swasticky buns left over from the Continental breakfasts at Geneva after the delegates walked out will find a good home before they get too stale.

I can't stop laughing over "swasticky buns."

17 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:50:31am

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

It's nice to know all those swasticky buns left over from the Continental breakfasts at Geneva after the delegates walked out will find a good home before they get too stale.

Those things must be a bitch to make, too.

/square cinnamon rolls?

18 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:50:33am

What about the pink-shirted guy fiving the "Heil Hitler" sign from the march video the other day? Does he get to speak? Such courage, to give such a sign in the face a crowd that we know were not fascists, and not neo-nazis, and could never have approved such a sign, deserves recognition.

///

19 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:50:33am

Does David Horowitz endorse all this? He continues to sponsor Spencer on his website.

20 FrogMarch  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:50:45am

lie down with neo-Nazis - give up any shred of credibility. Sad.

21 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:51:20am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

At first it looked like they might rethink attending but I think ultimately all this attention forced them to go just to defy Charles.

Can I just put my head down on my desk and scream? They've lost whatever marbles they once had. They're discrediting everyone who opposes any kind of discrimination. They're legitimizing tribalism and all the madness of group rights.

This is madness.

22 laZardo  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:52:24am

I hate Cologne Nazis.

/'cept maybe Konrad Adenauer?

23 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:52:40am

And for anyone still new to this controversy, or on the fence- an interview with filip dewinter:

DEWINTER: There's a big difference. We play at home. On our own field.

[Interviewer]- Whoever is born as a Moroccan Belgian also plays at home.

DEWINTER: That foreigner doesn't play at home. That foreigner is a guest here, should act like a guest. There are many guests who stay longer, but they are still guests. They must understand..

[Interviewer]- Whoever is born here is not a guest. That is their land just as well as it's yours

DEWINTER: I always think that a cat born in a fish shop is not a fish just because of that - to express it plastically. It takes maybe a few generation before people are completely assimilated. But that is the intention in the end: Be a Fleming among Flemish. But than we should also make an effort on our side to make it clear to them . And we don't do that.

I again have to *wonder* why filip's good friends pam and bob failed to promote this interview, or gov, or any of the other numerous blogs taking pot shots at LGF for exposing these fascists. Interestingly enough, they all fell silent over this piece.

24 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:52:57am

Robert Spencer and Pamela Gellar: Against Freedom of Religion.

25 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:53:15am

re: #10 Sharmuta

Its not that pam and bob don't know who their new friends are- it's that they don't want the rest of us knowing who their new friends are.

They're running with a bad crowd.

26 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:53:47am

re: #19 KingKenrod

Does David Horowitz endorse all this? He continues to sponsor Spencer on his website.

Why don't you ask him?

27 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:54:42am

I've been a loyal lizardoid for years now, as well as a JW reader. I fully understand the arguments being put forth, but swear this all looks personality driven so much more than philosophically driven on both sides. What's it accomplishing? Back/forth/back/forth/back/forth. (Although by the rules put forth by Biggy and Tupac regarding freestyle battles, I think Charles is on deck to make a YouTube video in response to the Lizardiod-Nazi vid).

28 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:54:50am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

At first it looked like they might rethink attending but I think ultimately all this attention forced them to go just to defy Charles.

And Spencer knows his 'fanbase' will support him in anything these days.

29 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:55:23am

re: #5 MrSilverDragon

When will someone explain to him that Nazis are bad?

We have. He fails to listen. I don't think Spencer cares anymore. He sees his own vidication in Pamela "Crazy Bikini" Geller, Baron Bodissey, Dymphna, Fjordman, and others.

30 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:55:32am

So, Bobby S., here's a cinematic recommendation for your plane trip over there.

31 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:55:54am

re: #27 William_Ryan

I've been a loyal lizardoid for years now, as well as a JW reader. I fully understand the arguments being put forth, but swear this all looks personality driven so much more than philosophically driven on both sides. What's it accomplishing? Back/forth/back/forth/back/forth. (Although by the rules put forth by Biggy and Tupac regarding freestyle battles, I think Charles is on deck to make a YouTube video in response to the Lizardiod-Nazi vid).

What is your understanding of how this began?

32 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:57:20am

re: #27 William_Ryan

What's it accomplishing?! Well- according to the other camp, they're having a hard time raising money, and broke nazis are a good thing.

33 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:57:33am

re: #27 William_Ryan

American bloggers are associating with neo-Nazis and fascists, and your contribution is to say it looks like it's "personality driven?"

Are you nuts?

34 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:57:39am

Some utterly OT, minor good news for iPhoners; there's finally a Wall Street Journal app for iPhone.

35 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:58:08am

re: #27 William_Ryan

It's not just a "back and forth", it's about integrity. Spencer has been pissing away any integrity he had by associating with these groups, these very groups who are avowedly and unabashedly racist in nature.

36 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:58:09am
37 Dr. Gene Squat  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:58:40am

re: #26 Charles

Why don't you ask him?

There's a good change that DH might tune out news about Robert Spencer's buddies as "Jihadists trying to trash the reputation of a good man with petty gossip"

38 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:58:56am

re: #27 William_Ryan

If you can't see the deep philosophical divide, you don't believe in individual rights and responsibilities.

39 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:59:12am

re: #37 Dr. Gene Squat

There's a good change that DH might tune out news about Robert Spencer's buddies as "Jihadists trying to trash the reputation of a good man with petty gossip"

Problem is, it's not gossip if it's well documented.

40 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:59:15am

re: #27 William_Ryan

Although by the rules put forth by Biggy and Tupac regarding freestyle battles

Quite amazing how you can trivialize this.

41 doppelganglander  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:59:59am

Have we considered the possibility that Pamela and Robert aren't just willing to buddy up to racists in the interests of "anti-jihad," but actually are just plain old racists?

42 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:00:05am

re: #31 Jimmah

Well, to borrow a phrase, it's bordering on impossibly complex to explain. A $2.00 summary is... Charles - Robert friends everything cool - Charles helped Robert out tremendously with JW. The LionHeart incident happened. RS kept posting links to GoV. Charles considered it a personal betrayal. Freestyle battle escalates and hits full steam in no time. Repeat

43 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:00:15am

Hey, Cheesehead, you approved of #27. Why?

44 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:00:15am

re: #27 William_Ryan

Oh, I get it. Reviewing your past comments shows that you always pop up to defend Spencer and Geller, and always seem to forget the points that other people make to you. Over and over.

45 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:00:58am

re: #15 buzzsawmonkey

So is the slogan of this conference, "Hear no evil, speak no evil, Nazi no evil?"

It's a toss-up between that, and a twist on a time-"honored" political slogan: No enemies to the right.

46 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:01:11am

re: #41 doppelganglander

Have we considered the possibility that Pamela and Robert aren't just willing to buddy up to racists in the interests of "anti-jihad," but actually are just plain old racists?

It's a strong possibility. There's a lot of folks out there who are racist whilst claiming not to be racist.

47 laZardo  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:01:13am

re: #21 Dianna

Madness?

/cannot find a word to complete reflexive "This is _____", sorry...

48 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:01:26am

re: #27 William_Ryan

I've been a loyal lizardoid for years now, as well as a JW reader

Registered since: May 28, 2006 at 12:34 pm
No. of comments posted: 69
No. of links posted: 0

49 doppelganglander  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:02:04am

re: #46 Honorary Yooper

It's a strong possibility. There's a lot of folks out there who are racist whilst claiming not to be racist.

The majority, I'd guess. It's not exactly respectable to admit to being a racist.

50 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:02:13am

re: #42 William_Ryan

Um.

No; the "lionheart" incident was well into the slide of Spence over to the fascists.

51 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:02:42am

re: #42 William_Ryan

Well, to borrow a phrase, it's bordering on impossibly complex to explain. A $2.00 summary is... Charles - Robert friends everything cool - Charles helped Robert out tremendously with JW. The LionHeart incident happened. RS kept posting links to GoV. Charles considered it a personal betrayal. Freestyle battle escalates and hits full steam in no time. Repeat

You miss the point. The point is, Spencer and Geller approve of and associate with fascist racists in Europe. It is not a personal betrayal.

I bolded it so you can see it more clearly.

52 ladycatnip  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:02:44am

Totally OT:

Maybe the msm is finally getting it. This expose' of our stimulus package giving millions to an airport that only has 20 passengers per day, thanks to John Murtha. This should be a crime.

53 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:02:55am

re: #42 William_Ryan

Charles considered it a personal betrayal.

Yeah, Charles really takes it personally when people associate with neo-Nazis. Talk about thin-skinned!

/dope

54 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:03:02am

re: #35 Honorary Yooper
For F*ck's sake - point made. I get that. But there's no denying it's back and forth. A decent portion of posts on both sites are "Wahhh, LibelBlogger Charles said something mean about me and Pam" or "Aha, see this is proof, Robert is a cryptofacist, he's just too crazy or too clueless to know it - but I do." Where does it end? On the whole I lean more toward the Charles side of the dispute (although I though the Facebook group stuff was really really really really really ridiculous)

55 Racer X  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:03:08am

re: #33 Charles

Do Spencer and Geller still have active accounts here?

56 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:03:09am
57 saylorfam  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:03:10am

The last time I posted regarding this I came to the defense of Pamela. I simply can not defend her actions or associations anymore. She has taken the philosophy of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to an unthinkable level.
I am very disappointed, beyond disappointed.

58 MJ  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:03:24am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

At first it looked like they might rethink attending but I think ultimately all this attention forced them to go just to defy Charles.

Yeah, they're like spoiled children.
We're going do it just to show Charles up.
Real intelligent, aren't they?

59 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:03:36am

re: #30 Occasional Reader

So, Bobby S., here's a cinematic recommendation for your plane trip over there.

Ouch.

60 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:03:54am

re: #42 William_Ryan

No. Charles got attacked for raising valid questions about attendees of an 'anti-jihad' conference in Europe. Geller and Spencer have been spewing increasing levels of hate ever since.

61 Dr. Gene Squat  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:04:46am

re: #39 Honorary Yooper

Problem is, it's not gossip if it's well documented.

That's not what I meant. The words "Nazi" and "Fascist" have been so carelessly used by the left for a very long time that David might just think of this news as a false accusation.

62 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:05:10am

re: #52 ladycatnip

Totally OT:

Maybe the msm is finally getting it. This expose' of our stimulus package giving millions to an airport that only has 20 passengers per day, thanks to John Murtha. This should be a crime.

And here's the article link.

63 rightymouse  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:05:49am

re: #54 William_Ryan

For F*ck's sake - point made. I get that. But there's no denying it's back and forth. A decent portion of posts on both sites are "Wahhh, LibelBlogger Charles said something mean about me and Pam" or "Aha, see this is proof, Robert is a cryptofacist, he's just too crazy or too clueless to know it - but I do." Where does it end? On the whole I lean more toward the Charles side of the dispute (although I though the Facebook group stuff was really really really really really ridiculous)

Are you saying the same things to Pamela and Spencer?

64 J.S.  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:06:15am

re: #41 doppelganglander

For quite a while now (years, in fact), I haven't believed all the protestations about how innocent they are (they just "happen" to have all these neo-nazi associations, but, hey, it's just an "accident!")

65 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:06:16am

re: #63 rightymouse

Are you saying the same things to Pamela and Spencer?

Take a wild guess.

66 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:06:23am

I quick disclaimer here. I'm fairly new to this controversy, so I'm perfectly willing to admit there are details I may be missing or that I may be mistaken.

Instead of Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller actually being closet neo-nazis, isn't it more plausible that it is european neo-nazis that are trying to co-opt anti-Sharia sentiment in order to get traction?

It seems natural that Gellar and Spencer would want to speak before european audiences on the subject on creeping religious extremism and the chilling effect it has on free speech.

Is the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller aren't careful enough with whom they associate, and painting them as being nazi is an attempt to shame them into refusing to participate in events where neo-nazis (or at least people with ties to european far-right political parties) are in attendance?

Or is it the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller actually are neo-nazis?

67 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:06:31am

re: #27 William_Ryan

... I think Charles is on deck to make a YouTube video in response to the Lizardiod-Nazi vid).

Now that might be cool, Charles could lay out what a bunch of nazi punks those people are... he could even do it in ala jazz rendition - (a lady I work with is a great scat singer) since they always try to besmirch Charles as a jazz musician... splodeydopes everywhere.

68 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:06:34am

re: #61 Dr. Gene Squat

That's not what I meant. The words "Nazi" and "Fascist" have been so carelessly used by the left for a very long time that David might just think of this news as a false accusation.

By jihadists, per your #37?

69 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:06:44am

re: #54 William_Ryan

So- since you're so torn up, and you've taken the time to speak up for pam and bob here at LGF, I'm sure you make a point to be a "loyal lizardiod" and defend Charles at jihadwatch and atlas, right?

70 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:07:02am

re: #61 Dr. Gene Squat

That's not what I meant. The words "Nazi" and "Fascist" have been so carelessly used by the left for a very long time that David might just think of this news as a false accusation.

Very true. The terms have been thrown carelessly as insults from both right and left to describe anyone they don't like. However, they do have an actual meaning, and these groups fit the real meaning to a "T".

71 MJ  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:07:23am

Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...

Gee, no matter how many times Pam and Robert say it, it still isn't true.

72 Rancher  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:07:32am

We are judged by the company we keep. Stupid on their part, especially when information is so readily available that one can't plead ignorance.

73 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:07:44am

re: #41 doppelganglander

Have we considered the possibility that Pamela and Robert aren't just willing to buddy up to racists in the interests of "anti-jihad," but actually are just plain old racists?

That's exactly my take. We spend a lot of time here surprised at their blogs and their associations with groups that are no longer suspect. We argue as though they are misinformed and misguided, not complicit and simpatico.

It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it shits like a duck. They are racist.

74 Dr. Gene Squat  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:08:06am

re: #68 wrenchwench

By jihadists, per your #37?

Yeah

75 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:08:15am

The apologists are coming out early in this thread.

76 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:08:35am

re: #44 Charles


Come on Charles - that's not really fair. The truth is, I"m a quiet lurker and have been for a while. This crap is just tired and it's enough to get me to speak on it occassionally. It's totally unfair to imply I just blindly "pop over" to support them. I've sent you personally several email suggestions and pieces of correspondence and don't say a word about the majority of the posts on the subject. If I'm just blind or some hack or making up my claims, why does my comments span what, 6 posts?

I was really busy Digging LGF posts, particularly when they were first being targeted by Diggbats and other than disagreement about this specific issue there's not a single thing indicating disloyalty on my part you or anyone else can find.

77 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:08:48am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

Or is it the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller actually are neo-nazis?

We just note who their associates are.

78 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:08:52am

Last week it was idiots attending the UN haterfest conference in Europe.

It seems every week haters take turns on alternate weeks to outdo themselves.

Guess the bad economy is no impediment to well-heeled haters' meet & greets.

79 Cheesehead  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:09:09am

re: #27 William_Ryan

I too have been a loyal lizard for years. Here's my spin on this issue.
I honestly miss the days of reading new and interesting posts by Charles that inspired all kinds of debate. The variety of posts used to be a refreshing break from the mainstream media driven news. This is not a criticism of what LGF has evolved into, just an observation. In recent months the posts seem to be largely directed towards three elements: 1. neo-nazis 2. creationists 3. Ron Paul & his ilk.
Charles, I miss the LGF of the not-too-distant past. I am still loyal to LGF but felt it necessary to throw my two-cents in. My best to you and all Lizards, always.

80 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:09:13am

re: #75 Charles

The apologists are coming out early in this thread.

They have to get their comments in early today so they have time to pick up their brown shirts at the dry cleaners before the big rally tonight. /

81 bloodnok  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:09:46am

re: #76 William_Ryan

Come on Charles - that's not really fair. The truth is, I"m a quiet lurker and have been for a while. This crap is just tired and it's enough to get me to speak on it occassionally. It's totally unfair to imply I just blindly "pop over" to support them. I've sent you personally several email suggestions and pieces of correspondence and don't say a word about the majority of the posts on the subject. If I'm just blind or some hack or making up my claims, why does my comments span what, 6 posts?

I was really busy Digging LGF posts, particularly when they were first being targeted by Diggbats and other than disagreement about this specific issue there's not a single thing indicating disloyalty on my part you or anyone else can find.

Are you "so angry you could spit"?

/getting ready to check box D

82 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:09:47am

re: #74 Dr. Gene Squat

Yeah

Are you saying David Horowitz could think Charles is a jihadist?

83 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:09:47am

re: #71 MJ

Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...Neo-Nazis are our friends...

Gee, no matter how many times Pam and Robert say it, it still isn't true.

Yes. I just heard my new friends want to give me a train ticket to some nice camp, for a good vacation.
/

84 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:09:48am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

The position of this Lizardoid minion is that Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are willfully blind to the intentions and actions of the people they have taken for allies.

85 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:10:12am

re: #76 William_Ryan

Come on Charles - that's not really fair.

It's totally fair. Any registered LGF reader can search for your comments and see it for themselves.

86 MJ  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:10:17am

re: #75 Charles

The apologists are coming out early in this thread.

For example, # 76 and #79.

87 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:10:22am

re: #75 Charles

The apologists are coming out early in this thread.

In force!

88 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:10:24am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

They both have some extremist views, Spencer's views on the Christian reclamation of Turkey or outlawing Islam for example. But I wouldn't consider them neo-nazi's. They have chosen to associate with more traditional neo-nazi groups like Vlaams Belang, FPO and pro-koln.

89 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:10:40am

re: #53 Occasional Reader

Where did I make any sort of implications about that? Where did I imply in any way shape manner or form that Charles wasn't "Right" about the content of his point and his feeling of betrayal? Seriously, it's not hard. I agree with Charles on the substance of this and other than the Facebook post, lean strongly in his direction. I just think the Annoying Incessant Bickering is Annoying.

90 Dr. Gene Squat  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:11:05am

re: #82 wrenchwench

Are you saying David Horowitz could think Charles is a jihadist?

Whoa!, I don't know how close Charles and David are.(not close, or David would have said something by now)

91 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:11:40am

re: #78 alegrias

Guess the bad economy is no impediment to well-heeled haters' meet & greets.

I hear that the fabulous Wannsee Conference Center™ is booked solid for the next several months.

92 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:11:41am

But of course.

93 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:11:48am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

... isn't it more plausible that it is european neo-nazis that are trying to co-opt anti-Sharia sentiment in order to get traction? ...

You got that part right.
Beyond that, Geller and Spencer brand their own thinking as often being at least on the skinhead level. Let their actions speak.

94 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:11:53am

re: #75 Charles

The apologists are coming out early in this thread.

Hello,

Do you mean me?

95 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:12:02am

Completely OT: Was last year's space walk by the Chinese fake; "Judge for yourself"!

96 gegenkritik  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:12:15am

re: #54 William_Ryan

"Aha, see this is proof, Robert is a cryptofacist, he's just too crazy or too clueless to know it - but I do."


I can't remember that Spencer himself was called a cryptofascist, but why shouldn't it be criticized if he allies with fascists?

97 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:12:29am

re: #79 Cheesehead

Yeah- because we certainly never have lively debates anymore at this blog.

[eye roll]

98 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:12:35am

re: #69 Sharmuta
Not at Atlas Shrugged - I don't read it enough to comment there. JW? Yes

99 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:13:04am

re: #98 William_Ryan

You've taken a stand for LGF at JW?

100 rightymouse  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:13:15am

re: #65 Charles

Take a wild guess.

Yeah...it's amazing how the scolding is one-sided.

101 Gus  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:13:15am

Markus Beisicht lawyer:

I am very pleased that Robert Spencer is such a designated Religious Studies and Islam critic his participation in our anti-Islamisierungskongress has pledged.

Markus Beisicht

Former "Republican" - and "German League for People and Homeland" functionary.

Chairman of the extreme right "Pro Cologne"

Chairman of the extreme right-wing citizens' movement "Pro NRW"

Defender of the Chairman of the Hagener German (s) League for People and Homeland "(DL) Walther Matthias Stanek, in a process because the people in May 1994.
Defenders of Kemna bombers

Defenders of Axel Reitz

Together with Mandy Judith Wolter Bonitz and he defended the accused in the proceedings to the so-called te "Asamoah-flyer" of the banned "Schutzbund Germany" before the Landgericht Neuruppin in April 2008. Uwe Lucke from Hürth Defender by Dr. Ryke Geerd Hamer / Germa-American medicine

Defended with Klaus Kunze Uslar from Peter and Karl Richter Dehoust of "Nation + Europe" and the party "German League for People and Homeland in 1995.

Ultra-rights brings the past

This probably also thinks Axel Reitz. One photo shows the young Pulheim at a rally in front of the local limestone in the fall of 1999 alongside Manfred Rouhs. Reitz, according to the Constitution is one of the most influential neo-Nazis of the Republic. He is due to hatred and multiple use of Nazi symbols criminal, currently serving a 33-month prison sentence for hatred.

In court, he was represented by its own account of repeated Pro-Cologne-chairman and lawyer Mark Beisicht. What happens with his opponents, he knew exactly has Reitz, the career aspirations as "SA-Standartenführer" has, at an event once said. Somewhere where you would "head off. They are then on the square and shot for what they have done. In this sense: Sieg Heil! "

Pro-Cologne-fighters Rouhs fits the common image is not in the stuff. He had the young man knew not, did not know who stood beside him, claiming Rouhs some time ago. But from the mouth of Reitzenstein sounds like something different. The Pro-Cologne man had even asked him in 1999, with the rally to organize, he said the "Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger:" The majority of participants came to my initiative. "

Nazi process in Bochum

102 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:14:03am

re: #85 Charles

It's totally fair. Any registered LGF reader can search for your comments and see it for themselves.

F'rinstance [re: Fjordman]:

49 William_Ryan5/11/2008 6:09:36 pm PDT

Sheesh Charles - please, whatever you need to do, let this end. Not b/c I think you're wrong (on the contrary, you're 100% right on this) but b/c for some weird reason, I feel compelled to read each of his responses. Reading a fraction as much as his posts got me through my Master's curriculum with flying colors. So please, for the love of god, find less verbose adversaries.

On a serious note though, it's telling that with all that prose, he says so little. Basically, from what I read, he just throws out a whole lot of stuff that's indirectly related and lets that suffice as his 'argument' or response. Whatever. You've pwned him every way that one can pwn someone yet he keeps coming back for more. What a masochist. If he didn't score a point by now he's not going to. But I don't think this will be the end of it.

103 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:15:07am

re: #96 gegenkritikJeeeezus H Christ already. It's simple. I'm not making the case that he shouldn't be criticized. But it's getting to the point it's every freaking day and it's the same crap over and over. Let's say this was a Klansman. Would you need to post every racist thing said each time he said it?

104 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:15:10am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

I quick disclaimer here. I'm fairly new to this controversy, so I'm perfectly willing to admit there are details I may be missing or that I may be mistaken.

Instead of Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller actually being closet neo-nazis, isn't it more plausible that it is european neo-nazis that are trying to co-opt anti-Sharia sentiment in order to get traction?

It seems natural that Gellar and Spencer would want to speak before european audiences on the subject on creeping religious extremism and the chilling effect it has on free speech.

Is the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller aren't careful enough with whom they associate, and painting them as being nazi is an attempt to shame them into refusing to participate in events where neo-nazis (or at least people with ties to european far-right political parties) are in attendance?

Or is it the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller actually are neo-nazis?

As you say you are new here, let's reiterate the story a bit.

Charles cautioned Pamela and Robert (as well as several others) about going to a conference a couple of years ago where there would be people, Filip DeWinter specifically, who were from the Vlaams Belang. He cautioned them in private email. Pamela decided to blow this out into the open rather than personal email. She attacked Charles first and called him all sorts of names. Robert sat on the fence for maybe a year after that. During that time, Fjordman, Bodissey, and Dymphna defended the Vlaams Belang and BNP, claiming they were just "conservative" parties in a liberal Europe. The main problem is, racism is at the heart of the VB and BNP policies (see the BNP "whites only" policy on membership). Since then, Fjordman, Pamela, Bodissey, and Dymphna decided to ally themselves with these fascists in Europe. They made a choice to do so. Robert later decided to join them. While he was doing so, he viciously attacked Charles.

So, no, I don't think it is so much that they are co-opting the "anti-jihad" so much as it is that the people mentioned above are either fascists or fascist sympathizers.

105 J.S.  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:15:18am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

imo, it works both ways. Thus, the neo-nazis (to the extent that Pam/Bob have legitimacy) can capitalize and make-believe that neo-nazis too are politically "legitimate" -- and, vice versa, Pam/Bob can gain "followers" with the wink/wink/nudge/nudge approach...it's mutually "beneficial" so long as you can pretend that racists and hate-mongers "further" your cause. (In reality, it's become increasingly clear that Pam/Bob are bigoted, and, imo, have lost any respectability.)

106 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:15:26am

re: #89 William_Ryan

Where did I make any sort of implications about that? Where did I imply in any way shape manner or form that Charles wasn't "Right" about the content of his point and his feeling of betrayal? Seriously, it's not hard. I agree with Charles on the substance of this and other than the Facebook post, lean strongly in his direction. I just think the Annoying Incessant Bickering is Annoying.

WTF?! So you agree with Charles, but you're going to stick up for the fascist lovers? You might need to rethink your strategy, or.... something.

107 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:15:35am

re: #89 William_Ryan

Where did I imply in any way shape manner or form that Charles wasn't "Right" about the content of his point and his feeling of betrayal?

You still don't get it.

Charles pointing out that prominent "anti-jihad bloggers" are associating with neo-Nazis is something that goes beyond any personal "feeling of betrayal". He's quite right to point out how this is a bad thing in and of itself, and a systemic risk to any sort of coordinated resistance to the jihadists and their apologists in the West.

108 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:15:41am

re: #67 Capitalist Tool

Amusing idea for a flash cartoon: Pamela Geller holds a seance to try to contact Ayn Rand, with tragic consequences.

As for Robert Spencer and his current liking for 'funny' videos and pictures all I can say right now is that over-inflated balloons shouldn't play with needles.

109 wiffersnapper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:15:44am

History repeating.

110 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:16:32am
111 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:16:46am

re: #99 Sharmuta
Yes, indeed I have. Around 3-5 posts total but then again, I doubt I have 20 posts over there

112 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:16:56am

You know what I miss - people recognizing evil for what it was and standing up to oppose it. Instead, we've got apologists here attacking those who expose the evil that is found in the Neo Nazis that Geller and Spencer choose to associate with.

Time was, you would know that dealing with Neo Nazis was bad. Heck, everyone knows to hate the Illinois Nazis. So why is it so damned difficult for the apologists and the Geller/Spencer supporters to know that the VB and their ilk should be shunned.

Just because they may agree with you on this one issue- the anti-Jihad, doesn't mean that you should make common cause with them. What's worse is that this isn't merely holding your nose while agreeing with them. What Geller and Spencer are doing are wholeheartedly associating with them and lending them credence where none is deserved or warranted.

They are siding with evil - an ideological position that deserves to be cast out from politics because it is racist and xenophobic.

There are other parties in Europe who are anti-Jihad and are fighting the spread of the Islamists without having to go to the Neo Nazis.

You want to speak out against the slouching towards Islamists in Europe - there's other ways to do it besides cozying up with the VB crowd.

113 MJ  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:17:06am

Charles' post must be getting to the Neo-Nazi Apologist Front judging by some of the comments on this thread....

114 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:17:15am

re: #103 William_Ryan

OH YEAH! I remember you now. The facebook stuff was "silly"- right.

You never said if you found robert's excuse to be adequate. Was it?

115 MJ  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:18:33am

re: #103 William_Ryan

Jeeeezus H Christ already. It's simple. I'm not making the case that he shouldn't be criticized. But it's getting to the point it's every freaking day and it's the same crap over and over. Let's say this was a Klansman. Would you need to post every racist thing said each time he said it?

Not that it matters, but this his Charles' blog. He can post whatever the hell he wants to post. Don't like it? Don't read it.

116 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:00am

I move that we start happy hour early today.

Anyone?

117 Mithrax  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:23am

re: #116 Irish Rose

I move that we start happy hour early today.

Anyone?

It's always 5 O'clock somewhere!

118 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:23am

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey

(the Nazis knew how to make beautiful regalia),

A bit too... well, whatever the German word is for récherché... in my book.

They did make some excellent weaponry, though.

119 big steve  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:29am

re: #116 Irish Rose

I move that we start happy hour early today.

Anyone?

you buying?

120 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:37am

re: #103 William_Ryan

Maybe you should get your own blog, so you can get a following of readers who will tell you what to do.

121 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:37am

re: #103 William_Ryan

Let's say this was a Klansman. Would you need to post every racist thing said each time he said it?

Yes. Until his vile philosophy was utterly disgraced, discredited, and destroyed.

122 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:50am

re: #116 Irish Rose

I move that we start happy hour early today.

Anyone?

Basil Hayden in 10... 9...

123 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:19:54am

re: #116 Irish Rose

I move that we start happy hour early today.

Anyone?

I'm there, Sister.

124 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:20:30am

re: #123 Sharmuta

I'm there, Sister.

Cheers, girl.

125 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:20:53am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

I quick disclaimer here. I'm fairly new to this controversy, so I'm perfectly willing to admit there are details I may be missing or that I may be mistaken.

Instead of Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller actually being closet neo-nazis, isn't it more plausible that it is european neo-nazis that are trying to co-opt anti-Sharia sentiment in order to get traction?

It seems natural that Gellar and Spencer would want to speak before european audiences on the subject on creeping religious extremism and the chilling effect it has on free speech.

Is the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller aren't careful enough with whom they associate, and painting them as being nazi is an attempt to shame them into refusing to participate in events where neo-nazis (or at least people with ties to european far-right political parties) are in attendance?

Or is it the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller actually are neo-nazis?

What's free about trying to stop a mosque? Why are they hooked on the populists and Eurofascists instead of helping the cause here in the US? You might pause to ponder these questions a moment before you reply.

126 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:21:18am

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey

Nazis exert a pornographic fascination

As P.J. O'Rourke famously observed (quoting from memory):

"Sometimes, people on the left will call me a 'Nazi'. And this makes me feel bad. But I console myself with the thought that no one, ever, has fantasized about being tied up and ravished by someone dressed up as a liberal."

127 gegenkritik  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:21:46am

re: #103 William_Ryan

Jeeeezus H Christ already. It's simple. I'm not making the case that he shouldn't be criticized. But it's getting to the point it's every freaking day and it's the same crap over and over. Let's say this was a Klansman. Would you need to post every racist thing said each time he said it?


See, if those guys from pro-Köln would clearly distance from their past, cut all connections to fascists group and - most important - would not be fascists, then there would be no need to point out e.g. Beisicht's and Rouhs' former connection to Axel Reitz and other Nazis.
But pro-Köln is a fascist group and Spencer and Geller will appear at their congress.

128 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:23:22am

For two people so damned concerned with their reputations getting smeared, ms geller and mr spencer sure have a funny way of showing it.

129 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:23:38am

re: #116 Irish Rose

I move that we start happy hour early today.

Anyone?

Let me finish writing checks, first, and I'll join you.

It would be awful if I made a mess of my paycheck.

130 Gus  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:23:55am

Markus Beisicht is pleased that Robert Spencer will be speaking at this conference.

Markus Beisicht was the attorney for Axel Reitz.

131 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:23:57am

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey

I would say that the nazi stuff is evil but the yellow stars are sacred and I would rescue them from whoever would so profane them as to sell them.

132 MJ  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:25:01am

re: #66 Liberal Classic


It seems natural that Gellar and Spencer would want to speak before european audiences on the subject on creeping religious extremism and the chilling effect it has on free speech.

They are speaking to "european audiences" which have zero respect for free speech and certainly promote their own brand of extremism.

133 William_Ryan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:25:31am

re: #107 Occasional Reader
Ok, but do I also have to agree that it's sooo freaking important that every time RS pisses in a Urinal that Some VB member paid for that it warrants another post?

Look man, we can talk about this all day. I can't say it any clearer, I think CJ is right on this. I don't begrudge him making his points about it. However it's a dead horse that's being beaten into the ground and it's just really starting to look MORE personality driven than philosophy driven - the opposite of how it started.

134 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:25:32am

re: #89 William_Ryan

Where did I make any sort of implications about that? Where did I imply in any way shape manner or form that Charles wasn't "Right" about the content of his point and his feeling of betrayal? Seriously, it's not hard. I agree with Charles on the substance of this and other than the Facebook post, lean strongly in his direction. I just think the Annoying Incessant Bickering is Annoying.

Associating with neo-Nazis and other fascists plays into the hands of the jihadists and their sympathizers, since they can just say, "Look, see who they are standing with? They're just racists and xenophobes!" Which completely shoots all the credibility of the counter-jihad movement, and makes many who listen, tune out.

135 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:25:36am

Confession time. I am not loyal to this blog in the least. In fact I feel free to agree or disagree with the host on any number of things. It is my opinion that Charles is doing a service turning the rocks over on these unsavory characters and at the same time I wonder if he has given too much press to them in even justifying their remarks - which is why I don't comment that much on the Ne-Nazi threads.

However- I don't feel it is productive to lecture Charles on how he chooses to blog. I am a guest here and I am free to engage (or not engage) in conversations within reason (and the rules are clearly stated at registration and at the top of each thread).

136 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:26:06am

OT : George Galloway has come out as a 9/11 troofer

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

137 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:27:02am

re: #133 William_Ryan

So the fact that they're attending a conference that's pretty much openly fascist is not worthy of comment?

That does not make the slightest sense to me.

138 big steve  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:27:21am

re: #120 Sharmuta

Maybe you should get your own blog, so you can get a following of readers who will tell you what to do.

With the greatest respect, I have been thinking over the logic of this argument.....that is.....you don't like it, go get your own blog. It is a compelling argument, sort of the electronic version of "America, love it or leave it." However there is a symbiotic relationship between a Blog Host and the followers of that Blog. There are zillions of blogs out there that no one reads and probably in some Darwinian fashion they will cease to exist. The successful Blogs have some attraction to the readers that keeps them coming back. There probably is some curve on this were some level of controversy helps the Blog but when it goes to either side (endless fighting, or mindless sycophancy) then the Blog becomes less read.

I for one keep coming back even after taking whacks from others including the host because in the long run, I get information given to me in this Blog that I rarely get elsewhere, and bottom line I am grateful.....it is like having your own personal FREE researcher.

139 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:27:29am

re: #136 Jimmah
What has George Galloway not come out as other than sane?

140 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:27:45am

re: #128 Sharmuta

For two people so damned concerned with their reputations getting smeared, ms geller and mr spencer sure have a funny way of showing it.

Probably because they both believe that their reputations are so rock solid, flawless and respected by all of the important people that they're impervious to criticism.

Either that, or they just really don't give a shit.

141 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:27:46am

re: #66 Liberal Classic

Is the POV of LGF that Spencer and Geller aren't careful enough with whom they associate, and painting them as being nazi...

Wrong. I have never posted a single word calling either Spencer or Geller Nazis.

... is an attempt to shame them into refusing to participate in events where neo-nazis (or at least people with ties to european far-right political parties) are in attendance?

Not just "in attendance." These are the ORGANIZERS of the event.

142 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:27:47am

re: #116 Irish Rose

I move that we start happy hour early today.

Anyone?

Tossing case of Irish Whiskey on the bar, yes please...:)

143 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:27:59am

One more thing, 'William_Ryan' this is "personality driven"....

This isn't the blog running around all over the place, getting camera time, consistently tooting it's horn. Before you start lobbing that argument around, you might want to actually check which blogs are personality driven, and which ones stick to facts.

144 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:28:25am

re: #127 gegenkritik

See, if those guys from pro-Köln would clearly distance from their past, cut all connections to fascists group and - most important - would not be fascists, then there would be no need to point out e.g. Beisicht's and Rouhs' former connection to Axel Reitz and other Nazis.
But pro-Köln is a fascist group and Spencer and Geller will appear at their congress.

Their past is embedded in their logo. That stylized flame comes from the top of the torch many Nazi youth groups adopt in their banners. Vlaams Blok Jongeren used to have the Flemish lion in the flames of their torch, now it's become more stylized and modern.

145 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:28:30am

re: #128 Sharmuta

For two people so damned concerned with their reputations getting smeared, ms geller and mr spencer sure have a funny way of showing it.

Yes, yes they do. They freely associate with racists, and then bitch that they are being smeared with the term "racist". They allow Serbian nationalists (yes, Robert, I'm looking at you) to post vile comments on their blogs and do not either repudiate them or delete them. They allow Fjordman a platform from which to spew his lond-winded racist diatribes (yes, Gates of Vienna, that's you, as well as you, Robert).

146 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:28:38am

re: #139 DaddyG

What has George Galloway not come out as other than sane?

I'm as unsurprised as you are.

147 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:28:45am

re: #133 William_Ryan

However it's a dead horse that's being beaten into the ground

Dead horses don't fly to Europe and speak, nor do they appear on the Fox news channel. This horse still needs a corral.

148 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:28:49am

re: #104 Honorary Yooper


Charles cautioned Pamela and Robert (as well as several others) about going to a conference a couple of years ago where there would be people, Filip DeWinter specifically, who were from the Vlaams Belang. He cautioned them in private email. Pamela decided to blow this out into the open rather than personal email. She attacked Charles first and called him all sorts of names. Robert sat on the fence for maybe a year after that. During that time, Fjordman, Bodissey, and Dymphna defended the Vlaams Belang and BNP, claiming they were just "conservative" parties in a liberal Europe. The main problem is, racism is at the heart of the VB and BNP policies (see the BNP "whites only" policy on membership). Since then, Fjordman, Pamela, Bodissey, and Dymphna decided to ally themselves with these fascists in Europe. They made a choice to do so. Robert later decided to join them. While he was doing so, he viciously attacked Charles.

Thanks for the summation. I don't pretend to be well-versed in european politics. Is it even possible to advance an anti-Sharia position in europe without attracting the far-right neo-nazi element?

149 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:29:10am

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey
...and fascists seem to be such snappy dressers. So much more pinache than those dreary commies. //

150 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:29:24am

re: #133 William_Ryan

Ok, but do I also have to agree that it's sooo freaking important that every time RS pisses in a Urinal that Some VB member paid for that it warrants another post?

Look man, we can talk about this all day. I can't say it any clearer, I think CJ is right on this. I don't begrudge him making his points about it. However it's a dead horse that's being beaten into the ground and it's just really starting to look MORE personality driven than philosophy driven - the opposite of how it started.

Ah, the dead horse defense.

151 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:30:04am

re: #133 William_Ryan

I've had enough of you smearing me with this "personality driven" accusation, and after seeing your previous comments it's clear to me that your purpose is to make excuses, and minimize what Spencer and Geller are doing. Get off my website.

152 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:30:06am

re: #141 Charles

Not just "in attendance." These are the ORGANIZERS of the event.

Reading comprehension, a very useful skill.

153 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:30:08am

re: #133 William_Ryan

Ignore them and they'll just go away? No. Every time their vile racism and associations raise their hydra-like head, it needs to be chopped.

154 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:30:27am
155 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:30:45am

re: #143 Sharmuta

One more thing, 'William_Ryan' this is "personality driven"....

This isn't the blog running around all over the place, getting camera time, consistently tooting it's horn. Before you start lobbing that argument around, you might want to actually check which blogs are personality driven, and which ones stick to facts.

There is a tiny clue as to whose websites are 'personality driven' in the fact that Geller and Spencer are always posting pictures of themselves.

156 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:30:56am

... and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

157 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:31:08am

re: #139 DaddyG

What has George Galloway not come out as other than sane?

Galloway and Alex Jones pretty much deserve each other, IMHO.

158 doppelganglander  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:31:18am

#79 is a pretty poor excuse for a flounce-off. I didn't see the word "saddened" anywhere.

159 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:31:29am

re: #148 Liberal Classic

Thanks for the summation. I don't pretend to be well-versed in european politics. Is it even possible to advance an anti-Sharia position in europe without attracting the far-right neo-nazi element?

Again. The far-right elements are not just "being attracted" to this event. They are ORGANIZING it. Hello?

160 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:31:37am

re: #138 big steve

There are zillions of blogs out there that no one reads and probably in some Darwinian fashion they will cease to exist.

Wrong, wrong, wrong you faithless Darwinist. Blogs that receive redemption were chosen by God. The rest are doomed to hell. /

161 Athos  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:31:38am

re: #103 William_Ryan

Jeeeezus H Christ already. It's simple. I'm not making the case that he shouldn't be criticized. But it's getting to the point it's every freaking day and it's the same crap over and over. Let's say this was a Klansman. Would you need to post every racist thing said each time he said it?

Yes. Because the one day, the one time, I do not work to discredit and disassociate myself from that ilk, my silence will be construed as acceptance of his viewpoint.

Evil has to be confronted each and everytime - not when it is convenient.

162 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:33:40am

re: #154 buzzsawmonkey

It's a sacred thing with some of the same power that Spielberg tried to show in the closing scenes of Raiders of the Lost Ark, IMHO.

Good for you for keeping it.

163 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:33:46am

re: #148 Liberal Classic

Thanks for the summation. I don't pretend to be well-versed in european politics. Is it even possible to advance an anti-Sharia position in europe without attracting the far-right neo-nazi element?

Attracting that element is a problem whenever one opposes socialism or group rights. The issue, though (a point of contention here regarding the Tea Party movement, as well), is whether one chooses to openly associate with those elements, or deny that they are those elements.

Do you see the distinction?

164 big steve  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:34:04am

re: #158 doppelganglander

#79 is a pretty poor excuse for a flounce-off. I didn't see the word "saddened" anywhere.


Is "Flounce Off" or "Flounce to the Exit" now officially in the LGF dictionary. I have heard that Mandy Manners coined it. True?

165 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:34:22am

re: #148 Liberal Classic

At the bottom of every article, you can see the little tags. There is plenty of material in the tags listed under this article to get you and anyone up to speed.

Hope that helps.

166 stormy  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:35:49am

Speaking of Köln, how about some Köln Concert?

167 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:37:16am

re: #98 William_Ryan

Not at Atlas Shrugged - I don't read it enough to comment there. JW? Yes

Hey William... see these TWO emails and give me your opinion...

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

I'm waiting.

168 doppelganglander  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:37:19am

re: #164 big steve

Is "Flounce Off" or "Flounce to the Exit" now officially in the LGF dictionary. I have heard that Mandy Manners coined it. True?

I don't know. I first noticed it being used by Charles, but Mandy might have used it as well. Somehow I always picture a great deal of huffing and multiple layers of skirts and petticoats swishing about. Which is even funnier when it's a male poster.

169 gegenkritik  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:37:41am

re: #125 Thanos

What's free about trying to stop a mosque?


I agree that pro-Köln and other fascists are the wrong people to argue against this mosque-complex. Though, they are not the only ones, see here.
The builders of this project are the islamo-fascist DITIB, one of the biggest Islam-organizations in Germany, who are a sub-division of the turkish Presidency of Religious Affairs, and who have connections to the fascist Grey Wolves. The DITIB-mosques have often been critizised for spreading misogynic propaganda, they not only promote the hijab but also violence against women.
There are several good reasons to be against this mosque-complex, but I doubt that fascists like pro-Köln are legitimate critics, since they couldn't care less for tortured muslim woman.

170 KenJen  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:37:48am

re: #164 big steve

Is "Flounce Off" or "Flounce to the Exit" now officially in the LGF dictionary. I have heard that Mandy Manners coined it. True?


I've never seen Mandy used that F-word.

171 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:38:18am

re: #148 Liberal Classic

Is it even possible to advance an anti-Sharia position in europe without attracting the far-right neo-nazi element?

This is a neo-nazi event. Last year the featured speakers were holocaust deniers like Le Penn and the BNP. The conference is attracting neo-Nazis because it is organized by neo-Nazis. Even the nazis at stormfront were invited.....
The Anti-Islam Congress of Köln (google cache)


I am proud to announce to all members of this board that the very first Anti-Islam congress the world has ever seen will be held on German soil, in the city of Köln / Cologne from September the 19th to the 21st. It has been organized by the German rightwing movement Pro Cologne....

So be there, but leave your skinhead-friends at home – no jackboots, no alcohol, no raised arms, no bomber-jackets, no WWII-emblems (perhaps even no emblems AT ALL), no hooliganism, and (except you are provoked of course) NO VIOLENCE AGAINST BYSTANDERS.

Believe me: This will be the chance to show that the European far-right is not just an assembly of narrow-minded thugs as the media like to present us, but that it stands united as one against the threats of Islamization. And cnce people start respecting their own culture again, a racial conscience and an end of multi-culturalism is the next step.

172 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:38:23am

re: #163 Dianna

Attracting that element is a problem whenever one opposes socialism or group rights. The issue, though (a point of contention here regarding the Tea Party movement, as well), is whether one chooses to openly associate with those elements, or deny that they are those elements.

Do you see the distinction?

And Spencer denies the far-right parties he's associating with have neo-nazi ties, as opposed to acknowledging a faustian bargain?

173 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:38:30am

Even if there weren't Neo-nazis orging this, it would still be wrong and basically counter to concepts embedded in our constitution. Opposing a house of worship is a sword that swings both ways.

174 debutaunt  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:40:00am

re: #108 Jimmah

Amusing idea for a flash cartoon: Pamela Geller holds a seance to try to contact Ayn Rand, with tragic consequences.

As for Robert Spencer and his current liking for 'funny' videos and pictures all I can say right now is that over-inflated balloons shouldn't play with needles.

It doesn't appear that Pamela Geller has the slightest connection to anything Ayn Rand ever uttered..

175 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:40:08am

re: #172 Liberal Classic

And Spencer denies the far-right parties he's associating with have neo-nazi ties, as opposed to acknowledging a faustian bargain?

Since William Ryan cannot respond to my post to him , maybe you will... this is an email exchange between Robert and me...

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

Comment from you?

176 big steve  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:40:43am

re: #170 KenJen

I've never seen Mandy used that F-word.

maybe the only F word she hasn't used!

177 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:40:49am

re: #169 gegenkritik

I don't agree with fighting the symbols, banning scarves and mosques doesn't get rid of the ideology. Go after the group, not the mosque.

178 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:41:06am
179 DoesNotMatter  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:42:06am

Hehe.

Köln is Germany's gay central. Sure Berlin probably has more but Köln is more visible.

Not that big a surpise to find a strong nazi presence there, afterall when the SA (Sturmabteilung) leadership was viciously slaughtered because Hitler didn't like their ambition (They wanted and didn't get to replace the Wehrmacht) reportedly there was a little mano-a-mano orgy going on.

More recently after the death of Jörg Haider, the not so much missed far-right austrian populist, reports emerged that he was often seen in a alternate nightclub with a young man who was now claiming to be his protege.

180 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:43:06am

re: #173 Thanos

Even if there weren't Neo-nazis orging this, it would still be wrong and basically counter to concepts embedded in our constitution. Opposing a house of worship is a sword that swings both ways.

Yep - it's wrong-headed right from the get-go. I can see why it would appeal to religious supremacist (yes, again, Medaura was right) Spencer.

181 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:44:06am

re: #172 Liberal Classic

And Spencer denies the far-right parties he's associating with have neo-nazi ties, as opposed to acknowledging a faustian bargain?

Walter, in #167, has had email conversations with Robert on this issue.

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

Hey William... see these TWO emails and give me your opinion...

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

I'm waiting.

It looks as though Robert just doesn't care as long as "they are fighting jihad." That, to me, says that he tacitly approves of these groups and what they do and who they are.

182 Racer X  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:44:20am

I don't know about you guys, but if a neo-nazi group invited me to attend a conference I would decline. Or if I did go, it would be to ridicule them in public for their racist beliefs. I would not go and sing kumbaya while holding their hand.

183 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:44:41am

re: #179 DoesNotMatter

Brings a whole new meaning to these Springtime for Hitler lyrics
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay!

184 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:45:10am

re: #172 Liberal Classic

Spencer tries to split the difference.

It doesn't work all that well; he says what amounts to, "hey, we're all fighting the jihadists. I don't endorse any other position." I believe that Pamela believes that VB at least endorses the existence of Israel, which does tend to be her sine qua non. Why she thinks this is believable, I'm not sure I quite grasp, or want to.

These do not strike me as either reasonable or safe positions and assumptions to make. Mostly because I think the associations are discrediting the rest of the anti-jihad/anti-group rights thinkers, but also because those positions will make you second up against the wall, because you're available.

185 gegenkritik  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:45:11am

re: #171 Killgore Trout

Last year the featured speakers were holocaust deniers like Le Penn and the BNP.


Yeah, but the funny thing was that pro-Köln announced LePen all the time, while he denied to be in contact with them. Finally, the congress started and no LePen showed up.

186 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:45:20am

re: #182 Racer X

I don't know about you guys, but if a neo-nazi group invited me to attend a conference I would decline. Or if I did go, it would be to ridicule them in public for their racist beliefs. I would not go and sing kumbaya while holding their hand.

I'd decline, but not after asking them if I had to wear a yellow star if I showed up.

187 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:45:23am

re: #173 Thanos

Even if there weren't Neo-nazis orging this, it would still be wrong and basically counter to concepts embedded in our constitution. Opposing a house of worship is a sword that swings both ways.

Their neither understand nor respect the Rule of Law. They're trying to push for an egalitarian society by unegalitarian means. That's usually a recipe for disaster.

188 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:45:41am

re: #174 debutaunt

It doesn't appear that Pamela Geller has the slightest connection to anything Ayn Rand ever uttered..

Exactly. If anything. Ayn Rand is diametrically opposed to Geller on just about everything she stands for - that's why the outcome of the seance would be so tragic (for Geller.)

189 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:46:11am

Today's Stormfront thread....

Heirs to Fortuyn? Muslim immigration and sclerotic welfare states push Europe right (sort of).

.....I really feel that it is incumbent for all WNst to give support to these parties as much as possible. Eyes are beginning to open up to the infestation of our homelands by filth from non-white countries. Every single one of this filth should be deported from the American and European continents. Australia, wake-up while your house is still white!

190 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:46:13am
191 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:46:55am

re: #189 Killgore Trout

Disgusting.

192 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:47:34am

re: #179 DoesNotMatter

And this matters exactly how?

Gah! Ugly, smarmy remarks.

193 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:48:11am

Breaking: Gov't buildings are being evacuated because of an unidentified plane in the area.

194 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:48:14am

re: #188 Jimmah

Exactly. If anything. Ayn Rand is diametrically opposed to Geller on just about everything she stands for - that's why the outcome of the seance would be so tragic (for Geller.)

One reason why I call her blog "Atlas Shrieks".

195 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:48:29am

In DC

196 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:48:45am

re: #185 gegenkritik

Finally, the congress started and no LePen showed up.

Did he not show up or was it because the conference was disrupted by violence? I read yesterday that they were complaining that nobody got to give their speeches because of the rioting.

197 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:48:51am

re: #193 NJDhockeyfan

Breaking: Gov't buildings are being evacuated because of an unidentified plane in the area.

Where? What area?

198 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:48:56am

Ok... what happened? I posted my email exchange between Spencer and myself for Liberal Classic, and he runs away. Where is his answer?

199 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:49:25am

re: #190 buzzsawmonkey I just want your yamika and your... bris.

200 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:49:49am

re: #197 Honorary Yooper

Where? What area?

Canadian border.
/

201 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:50:43am

re: #197 Honorary Yooper

Where? What area?

Secret government facility... need to know only. Go back to your blogging.

202 Ontheleftcoast  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:50:45am

The blokbuster.be site is clearly a hard left site. It is anti-capitalist, anti-globalization and prominently quotes Malcolm X and Trotsky. Its home page has as a favorite link the AFF "antifascist" site. AFF started out as a violent leftist organization but claims to have broken with that part of its past (as does Vlaams Belang.)

Am I saying that what blokbuster says is false? No. Am I uneasy when someone quotes extreme socialists calling their political enemies fascists?
Yes; even when it's LGF.

The main enemy of Western Civilization is the international jihad. The anti-globalist, anti-capitalist Left is by and large allied with that enemy.

If Charles is right in his repugnance for the various nationalist movements in Europe, and right to say that we should not ally ourselves with them even though they oppose the jihadis, shouldn't we be similarly leery about joining our enemies friends?

203 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:50:52am

re: #197 Honorary Yooper

Where? What area?

DC...Capital Building & WH north lawn evacuated. FNC is covering live.

204 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:50:55am
205 big steve  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:50:58am

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

In DC

is there a live link somewhere

206 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:51:02am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

He asked me a question, I answered, he may still be reading or composing an answer. You were, I think, two comments below me.

207 Gus  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:51:32am

re: #188 Jimmah

Exactly. If anything. Ayn Rand is diametrically opposed to Geller on just about everything she stands for - that's why the outcome of the seance would be so tragic (for Geller.)

She's using yesterday blog from Robert Stacy McCain this morning at her website. She even quotes him including this stupid line, "I'm willing to let the Germans evaluate how much of a fascist threat Rouhs and Reitz pose to Germany."

I guess that make Robert Stacy McCain her official ally.

208 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:51:33am

Don't know....on dial up here. Saw it on TV.

209 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:51:59am

re: #159 Charles

Again. The far-right elements are not just "being attracted" to this event. They are ORGANIZING it. Hello?

Hi.

So is the future of human rights in Europe doomed to Durbanesqueness? It's beginning to sound like a pro-human rights anti-sharia positions has already been totally convolved with racist and/or anti-immigrant sentiment.

Personally, I'm glad Obama pulled us out of Durban II, and I'm happy that Canada (and a number of other nations I can't recall off-hand) also refused to participate. Some others walked out during Ahmadinejad's speech. There's clearly a certain amount of validity to guilt by association, at least in politics, the old saw about strange bedfellows not withstanding.

What worries me about this, is its effect on U.S. politics. If anti-sharia is the domain of the european neo-nazi far right, it makes it more difficult for me to hold secular free-speech anti-sharia position here. Especially if we have notable people from the U.S. hobnobbing with neo-nazis in europe. It becomes all too easy for the american left to tar me with the nazi brush.

Full disclosure. I don't read Atlas Shrugs, and only became aware of Gellar through this website. I do follow Spencer's blog, as well as Daniel Pipes'. I also follow this one, largely because of its anti-creationism slant. Personally, I wonder if Spencer isn't a Christian dominionist, though I had never suspected him of whitewashing european fascism.

210 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:52:05am

OT

White House being evacuated, some plane has violated the Capital airspace. But it's all clear per Capitol police.

211 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:52:42am

OK...."all clear" being reported.

Go back to your scheduled debates already in progress.

212 Land Shark  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:52:47am

re: #173 Thanos

You miss the point. In Muslim countries, non-Muslims do not have the right to build their houses of worship as they please. They are subject to endless paperwork just to be able to repair the existing ones, forget actually being able to build a new one. Compared to that, Muslims enjoy virtually unlimited freedom to worship as they see fit in non-Muslim lands. I have no desire to limit Muslim's ability to worship, but I would like to see Muslim countries be at least as tolerant of non-Muslim houses of worship as we are of Muslim houses of worship.

And Muslims are interested in building these new mega Mosques not just as houses of worship, but as symbols of Islamic supremacy. It's no accident they want to build really big ones now.

The sword already cuts against non-Muslims in Muslim countries.

213 doppelganglander  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:53:20am

re: #194 Honorary Yooper

One reason why I call her blog "Atlas Shrieks".

I noticed that coinage the other day and did not get a chance to tell you how much I like it.

214 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:53:26am

re: #204 buzzsawmonkey

bbl


Was it something I said in my 199?

215 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:53:45am

re: #210 alegrias

That's good news. Thanks to you and NJDhockeyfan.

216 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:54:07am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Ok... what happened? I posted my email exchange between Spencer and myself for Liberal Classic, and he runs away. Where is his answer?

Hi,

Sorry, was typing another post. Sheesh, you people sure are touchy.

217 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:54:24am

Vice President GORE was testifying on the Hill per Sr. House producer Chad Pergram? Al Gore?

218 gegenkritik  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:55:11am

re: #177 Thanos

I don't agree with fighting the symbols, banning scarves and mosques doesn't get rid of the ideology. Go after the group, not the mosque.


It's not only a mosque, but a whole complex with schools, shops and so on. It also includes a kindergarten, where even small children have to wear this damned headscarves that should show that women are inferior to men. It is organized violence against the most innocent.
Besides, the DITIB offers "advisory services" in their mosques, where women can ask for help if they are being beaten by their husband. They get the standard-advice: talk with your husband, believe in Allah but never go to the police, this would be sin.
This way, from the very beginning in the kindergarten, those girls never have the chance of a free life. If it's not their family, it's the local Imam and the islamic collective that rules over them.
And there are many more points beside misogyny and child maltreatment: the Imams there regulary agitate against Homosexuals, Jews, Americans, Infidels.

219 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:55:22am

Killer flu outbreak in Mexico
And how long before this crosses our porous borders? (Probably already too late)

220 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:55:34am

re: #184 Dianna

Spencer tries to split the difference.

It doesn't work all that well; he says what amounts to, "hey, we're all fighting the jihadists. I don't endorse any other position." I believe that Pamela believes that VB at least endorses the existence of Israel, which does tend to be her sine qua non. Why she thinks this is believable, I'm not sure I quite grasp, or want to.

These do not strike me as either reasonable or safe positions and assumptions to make. Mostly because I think the associations are discrediting the rest of the anti-jihad/anti-group rights thinkers, but also because those positions will make you second up against the wall, because you're available.

I could be wrong but, I get the notion that these people would obliterate Israel given the chance.

221 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:55:40am

The server is down today and boy is it frustrating. No way to get much done without access to my work materials and e-mail.

222 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:57:25am

re: #216 Liberal Classic

Hi,

Sorry, was typing another post. Sheesh, you people sure are touchy.

I'm touchy sometimes, I'll admit it. I won't speak for other Lizards.
:)

223 gegenkritik  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:57:31am

re: #196 Killgore Trout

Did he not show up or was it because the conference was disrupted by violence? I read yesterday that they were complaining that nobody got to give their speeches because of the rioting.


No, it seems he never planned to show up there. When pro-Köln announced him as a speaker some weeks before the congress, LePen negated to have ever been in contact with them. Nonetheless, pro-Köln continued announcing him until the congress took place (without LePen).

224 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:57:43am

Another OT, but a frightening thought. This probably isn't the reason, but we can discuss it anyway:
What if the Taliban are pulling out of Buner because they got what they came for? Could they have gotten a few nukes?

225 doppelganglander  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:58:09am

re: #221 DaddyG

The server is down today and boy is it frustrating. No way to get much done without access to my work materials and e-mail.

What a shame. I guess you'll just have to hang out here for a while longer. ;)

226 Kragar  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:58:21am

re: #219 Kosh's Shadow

Killer flu outbreak in Mexico
And how long before this crosses our porous borders? (Probably already too late)

Already reports in San Diego

227 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:58:22am

re: #194 Honorary Yooper

One reason why I call her blog "Atlas Shrieks".

So do I...lol

Dinner time...BBL

228 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:58:36am

re: #224 Kosh's Shadow

Another OT, but a frightening thought. This probably isn't the reason, but we can discuss it anyway:
What if the Taliban are pulling out of Buner because they got what they came for? Could they have gotten a few nukes?

Was there a Nukes 'r' Us store there?

229 vxbush  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:59:02am

re: #224 Kosh's Shadow

Another OT, but a frightening thought. This probably isn't the reason, but we can discuss it anyway:
What if the Taliban are pulling out of Buner because they got what they came for? Could they have gotten a few nukes?

If they suddenly become very quiet, you might be right. If any word leaked out that they had nukes, they would know that someone *cough* Israel *cough* would probably see to their hasty demise.

230 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:59:09am

re: #202 Ontheleftcoast

If Charles is right in his repugnance for the various nationalist movements in Europe, and right to say that we should not ally ourselves with them even though they oppose the jihadis, shouldn't we be similarly leery about joining our enemies friends?

I see what you did there. I'm sure you thought you were clever, but in reality, you weren't. Joining our enemies friends is what we'd be doing by hooking up with nazis.

231 big steve  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:59:16am

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

I'm touchy sometimes, I'll admit it. I won't speak for other Lizards.
:)

Touchy? Hadn't noticed.... ;)

232 Shug  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:59:18am

re: #27 William_Ryan

I've been a loyal ( To PG and RS ) lizardoid sleeper for years now, .


fixed

233 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:00:14am

re: #221 DaddyG

The server is down today and boy is it frustrating. No way to get much done without access to my work materials and e-mail.

Heh. Been there, done that. It sucks something really bad, IMHO. We just got a new server about a week ago, and it's been so much easier to get things done since.

234 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:00:24am

re: #228 Walter L. Newton

Was there a Nukes 'r' Us store there?

They were near some of the nuclear facilities.
As I said, I don't think that is the reason they pulled back; I think it was to rearm; they had advanced beyond their supply lines.
I really don't think it was the government that scared them.

235 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:00:41am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Ok... what happened? I posted my email exchange between Spencer and myself for Liberal Classic, and he runs away. Where is his answer?

Actually, I think he asked the same question on this board that you did of Spencer. I could be wrong, but that's how I read his original question before you responded to him with your back and forth with Spencer and asked his opinion.

236 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:01:06am

re: #212 Land Shark

The sword already cuts against non-Muslims in Muslim countries.

We don't remedy that by employing their tactics against them. It would only undermine our own rights.

237 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:01:08am

re: #229 vxbush

If they suddenly become very quiet, you might be right. If any word leaked out that they had nukes, they would know that someone *cough* Israel *cough* would probably see to their hasty demise.

Israel and India would work together on it.

238 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:02:28am

re: #181 Honorary Yooper

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)


It looks as though Robert just doesn't care as long as "they are fighting jihad." That, to me, says that he tacitly approves of these groups and what they do and who they are.

Wow, okay. I would have to agree with you here. Assuming the legitimacy of this email, this certainly represents a different tone than his public persona. Simply saying "I don't endorse their other activities" is an extremely weak position to take. Since we're talking about far-right neo-nazi parties, if they're "doing anything else" it's likely to be just as bad (if not identical) to the islamists.

239 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:03:35am

re: #202 Ontheleftcoast

If Charles is right in his repugnance for the various nationalist movements in Europe, and right to say that we should not ally ourselves with them even though they oppose the jihadis, shouldn't we be similarly leery about joining our enemies friends?

I haven't "joined" anyone. The quote from Blokwatch contains things known as "facts." Facts are neither left wing nor right wing. And recognizing facts does not mean that I'm "joining" with Blokwatch or their other agendas.

However, in their opposition to the Vlaams Belang and other Eurofascists, they are absolutely spot on.

240 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:03:40am

re: #225 doppelganglander

What a shame. I guess you'll just have to hang out here for a while longer. ;)

Yup, it is the primary reason my comment count is so high today. I already cleaned out my file cabinet and desk. I'd make some calls and visit other offices but most everybody's out for the 3 day weekend.

Perhaps I should just relax and enjoy not being on overdrive.

241 big steve  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:04:49am

Hey can I go off thread......Bad Astromony has posted today a rant against the Huffpo piece by Jim Carrey. It completely eviscerates Carrey's article on the vaccine issue. He ends it by saying that he will now and forever boycott all Jim Carrey movies. You know I kind of like that idea. Corporations have to put up with boycotts so why not dingus actors who think they can write utter nonsence and get people to pay attention just because they are an actor. Thoughts?

242 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:05:01am

re: #219 Kosh's Shadow

Killer flu outbreak in Mexico
And how long before this crosses our porous borders? (Probably already too late)

7 cases so far in the US. 2 here in San Diego the others were Texas. All have recovered.

243 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:05:03am

re: #238 Liberal Classic

Wow, okay. I would have to agree with you here. Assuming the legitimacy of this email, this certainly represents a different tone than his public persona. Simply saying "I don't endorse their other activities" is an extremely weak position to take. Since we're talking about far-right neo-nazi parties, if they're "doing anything else" it's likely to be just as bad (if not identical) to the islamists.

Yes, the emails are authentic. I can email you the originals, with all the IP information, hops, skips and jumps that the emails made from server to server, from me to Robert and Robert to me.

It's not easy to tamper with the "hidden" header information in an email.

244 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:06:04am

re: #243 Walter L. Newton

Yes, the emails are authentic. I can email you the originals, with all the IP information, hops, skips and jumps that the emails made from server to server, from me to Robert and Robert to me.

It's not easy to tamper with the "hidden" header information in an email.

Metadata, Baby.

245 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:06:29am

re: #244 Sharmuta

Metadata, Baby.

I love it when you talk dirty... :)

246 Van Helsing  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:06:58am

Why can't all the nazis be this good looking-Don't be stupid...

247 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:07:27am

re: #241 big steve

Hey can I go off thread......Bad Astromony has posted today a rant against the Huffpo piece by Jim Carrey. It completely eviscerates Carrey's article on the vaccine issue. He ends it by saying that he will now and forever boycott all Jim Carrey movies. You know I kind of like that idea. Corporations have to put up with boycotts so why not dingus actors who think they can write utter nonsence and get people to pay attention just because they are an actor. Thoughts?

I'll join the boycott, but I doubt anyone will notice.
I haven't watched a Jim Carrey movie in years.

I've long thought of writing to one of these idiot celebrities and telling them how to act or write music, with the note that if they're qualified to make scientific criticism, I'm qualified to tell them how to perform their art.

248 quickjustice  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:07:44am

Too bad. So sad. Hope Spenser and Geller are practicing their goose-stepping!

249 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:08:47am

re: #220 MandyManners

I could be wrong but, I get the notion that these people would obliterate Israel given the chance.

That's what I think. That's why I don't believe Spencer and Geller have thought it through.

250 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:09:19am

re: #241 big steve

Hey can I go off thread......Bad Astromony has posted today a rant against the Huffpo piece by Jim Carrey. It completely eviscerates Carrey's article on the vaccine issue. He ends it by saying that he will now and forever boycott all Jim Carrey movies. You know I kind of like that idea. Corporations have to put up with boycotts so why not dingus actors who think they can write utter nonsence and get people to pay attention just because they are an actor. Thoughts?

But I already boycott Jim Carrey movies.

251 johnnyreb  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:09:38am

re: #226 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Already reports in San Diego

You know when I was in the Army in Germany in 76 we got vaccinated against the swine flu. I wonder if that shot is still any good? Hurt like heck and put most of us out of commission for about 2-3 days.

252 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:10:36am

OT
Anyone heard details that Pres. Obama wants to release more Abu Ghraib pictures, and John McCain is opposed?

253 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:10:37am

Also scheduled to speak at the "Pro Koln" event: Petra Edelmannova.

The head of an ultra-right wing party which advocates a "final solution" for Roma in the Czech Republic is due to speak at the annual festival held by the British National party today. Petra Edelmannova, chair of the Czech National party, is booked to give a 25-minute speech at the BNP's Red White and Blue festival in the village of Denby in Derbyshire.

The event faces strong opposition from local residents and anti-racism campaigners who are mounting a demonstration. The protest has been organised by a number of groups including Unite Against Facism (UAF), Love Music Hate Racism and Derby Racial Equality Council. The TUC and unions CWU and Unite are giving their support. UAF said it was expecting more than 500 people and coaches from around the country.

Edelmannova's party recently announced it was working on a 150-page "study" called The Final Solution to the Gypsy Issue in the Czech Lands, which it said it would present as part of a 2010 general election campaign.

Although the title evokes the Nazi plan to eradicate Jews in wartime Germany, the party told Lidove Noviny, a national Czech newspaper, its aim is only to offer Roma voluntary relocation to land bought in India. The NS is a marginal party in the Czech Republic, gaining only 0.17% of votes in the 2006 parliamentary elections. Judy Mallaber, MP for Amber Valley, said she had deep concerns. "[The BNP's] attempts to present a respectable image are still masking some deeply disturbing underlying views."

Simon Darby, deputy leader of the BNP, said: "There is a Gypsy problem there. What's wrong with people who talk frankly about their problems?"

254 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:11:26am

re: #249 Dianna

That's what I think. That's why I don't believe Spencer and Geller have thought it through.

Especially Geller. She blows my mind. She memorializes the Holocaust, condemns Buchanan, and then goes on to sing the praises of the BNP.

255 Ontheleftcoast  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:12:45am

re: #230 Sharmuta

No, Sharmuta, I wasn't being clever. Sometimes our enemies enemies are our enemies.

And yes, Charles, I know about facts. But when I cite a clearly biased source I identify it as such, and I prefer to have independent corroboration. IIRC that used to be your practice, too.

256 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:12:48am
257 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:13:11am

re: #253 Charles

Also scheduled to speak at the "Pro Koln" event: Petra Edelmannova.Edelmannova's party recently announced it was working on a 150-page "study" called The Final Solution to the Gypsy Issue in the Czech Lands, which it said it would present as part of a 2010 general election campaign.

Although the title evokes the Nazi plan to eradicate Jews in wartime Germany, the party told Lidove Noviny, a national Czech newspaper, its aim is only to offer Roma voluntary relocation to land bought in India.


Oy, vey.
Didn't the Nazis originally only want to relocate Jews?
They are using "final solution" with complete knowledge of what it means.

258 MrMisanthrope  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:13:19am

One of the easiest ways of proving that it is radical (fundamentalist/evangelical?) Islam that is the problem and not Islam or Muslims in general is to point out one of the largest single donors to the mosque/Islamic Prayer Center in Orland Park IL (Chicago)... one Malik Ali... owner of the distribution rights to such well regarded Islamic films as:

The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (100% US & International rights),
George Carlin's 14 disc HBO collection, etc.

Yep, I bet the splodydope Mullahs are pleased as punch with Malik Ali & MPI Media Group...

259 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:13:37am

re: #243 Walter L. Newton

Yes, the emails are authentic. I can email you the originals, with all the IP information, hops, skips and jumps that the emails made from server to server, from me to Robert and Robert to me.

It's not easy to tamper with the "hidden" header information in an email.

That's not necessary, though I appreciate the gesture. I'm a unix guy, and can read mail headers. While it is possible to forge convincing-looking headers, it is not easy.

I've been trying to figure out what the was going on between LGF and JW for a while. I'm not surprised that a number of people jumped on my back here. It's a tough crowd in here. If that accurately reflects Spencer's position, then count me against it. Personally, I see neo-nazis and islamists as representing a similar threat to human rights. If you oppose one, you have to oppose both. To do otherwise makes yourself a hypocrite.

260 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:13:48am

re: #256 Dr. Gene Squat

Have fun guys, I'm gonna stop obsessing about the Eurofascist Conference with RS+PG and PE, It's too depressing.

How about cheering up thinking about the Taliban with nuclear weapons?
/sorry.

261 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:00am

re: #242 Russkilitlover

7 cases so far in the US. 2 here in San Diego the others were Texas. All have recovered.

But the seven known cases of the previously undetected strain in the United States -- five from California and two from Texas -- did not have contact with pigs. The seven people infected have all recovered from the flu.

Swine Flu Outbreak

262 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:03am

re: #202 Ontheleftcoast

Who's joining the commies/anarchists in antifa? The sad thing for you is that facts are facts however, even if you don't like the source.

263 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:10am

re: #253 Charles

First there's a Roma problem to them, and then there's a Muslim problem to them. It's not that much of a leap for them to next claim another Jewish problem. These folks give me the willies. How can Pamela and Robert stand to be associated with such filth?

264 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:26am

re: #255 Ontheleftcoast

No, Sharmuta, I wasn't being clever. Sometimes our enemies enemies are our enemies.

And yes, Charles, I know about facts. But when I cite a clearly biased source I identify it as such, and I prefer to have independent corroboration. IIRC that used to be your practice, too.

So you're just going to ignore everything else I posted because you don't like Blokwatch?

Got it.

265 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:43am

re: #253 Charles

Also scheduled to speak at the "Pro Koln" event: Petra Edelmannova.

How charming.

266 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:49am

re: #253 Charles

Although the title evokes the Nazi plan to eradicate Jews in wartime Germany, the party told Lidove Noviny, a national Czech newspaper, its aim is only to offer Roma voluntary relocation to land bought in India.

And if the Roma refuse? What then?

267 johnnyreb  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:57am

OT

Obama has backed off the torture probe for now:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

268 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:14:58am

re: #257 Kosh's Shadow

Oy, vey.
Didn't the Nazis originally only want to relocate Jews?
They are using "final solution" with complete knowledge of what it means.

Kosh, I think they are, and that's freightening.

269 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:15:01am

re: #168 doppelganglander

I don't know. I first noticed it being used by Charles, but Mandy might have used it as well. Somehow I always picture a great deal of huffing and multiple layers of skirts and petticoats swishing about. Which is even funnier when it's a male poster.


Add a hoop for a hysteresis loop.

270 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:15:01am
271 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:15:14am

re: #241 big steve

Hey can I go off thread......Bad Astromony has posted today a rant against the Huffpo piece by Jim Carrey. It completely eviscerates Carrey's article on the vaccine issue. He ends it by saying that he will now and forever boycott all Jim Carrey movies. You know I kind of like that idea. Corporations have to put up with boycotts so why not dingus actors who think they can write utter nonsence and get people to pay attention just because they are an actor. Thoughts?

Seriously, it is terribly unfortunate that the anti-science factions of Western society have such a large following, and are given credence by the press.
And I'm including the creationists/ID'ers, global warming zealots, no-growth proponents, and more that I can't think of right now, along with the anti-vaccine crowd.

/rant off

272 Liberal Classic  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:15:18am

re: #241 big steve

Hey can I go off thread......Bad Astromony has posted today a rant against the Huffpo piece by Jim Carrey. It completely eviscerates Carrey's article on the vaccine issue. He ends it by saying that he will now and forever boycott all Jim Carrey movies. You know I kind of like that idea. Corporations have to put up with boycotts so why not dingus actors who think they can write utter nonsence and get people to pay attention just because they are an actor. Thoughts?

For what it's worth, Huffington Post has been anti-vaccine as far back as I can recall.

273 Kragar  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:15:37am

re: #260 Kosh's Shadow

How about cheering up thinking about the Taliban with nuclear weapons?
/sorry.

Or we can talk about North Korea as a serious nuclear power, or swine flu, or Obama gutting defense spending or......

I should really stop I guess.

274 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:16:36am

re: #263 Honorary Yooper

First there's a Roma problem to them, and then there's a Muslim problem to them. It's not that much of a leap for them to next claim another Jewish problem. These folks give me the willies. How can Pamela and Robert stand to be associated with such filth?

Because they think the crocodile is their friend.

275 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:16:47am

It looks like a general aviation pilot simply strayed into the restricted airspace over DC, and complied with a request to divert.

276 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:16:58am

re: #249 Dianna

That's what I think. That's why I don't believe Spencer and Geller have thought it through.

Do their own egos prevent their carrying this to its logical conclusion?

277 J.S.  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:17:00am

re: #224 Kosh's Shadow

CNN the other day had a map thingy going on -- the CNN fellow pointed out all the locations (yeah, on the map) where nuclear material, reactor site locations, etc., were...(basically it's all immediately south of Islamabad...approx. 10 miles). (I don't know, i have mixed feelings about wanting to believe/not believe that CNN is 100 reliable (?), accurate (?) -- since such "news" benefits all and sundry, if you get my drift.)

278 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:17:38am

re: #259 Liberal Classic

That's not necessary, though I appreciate the gesture. I'm a unix guy, and can read mail headers. While it is possible to forge convincing-looking headers, it is not easy.

I've been trying to figure out what the was going on between LGF and JW for a while. I'm not surprised that a number of people jumped on my back here. It's a tough crowd in here. If that accurately reflects Spencer's position, then count me against it. Personally, I see neo-nazis and islamists as representing a similar threat to human rights. If you oppose one, you have to oppose both. To do otherwise makes yourself a hypocrite.

Thanks for the support.

279 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:17:42am

re: #267 johnnyreb

OT

Obama has backed off the torture probe for now:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

I guess once 44 realized that a good portion of his staff would be publicly shown to have supported the techniques in private meetings, he figured it would be a bad idea. Wasn't it Pelosi that said, "Is that all we're going to do?"

280 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:18:01am

re: #253 Charles

Also scheduled to speak at the "Pro Koln" event: Petra Edelmannova.

Chilling.

281 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:18:17am

re: #275 Ward Cleaver

It looks like a general aviation pilot simply strayed into the restricted airspace over DC, and complied with a request to divert.

* * * *
Pilot must be an idiot, post 9/11/01, on a beautiful clear day, cluelessly flying over the White House & Capitol of the USA.

282 jcm  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:18:23am

re: #260 Kosh's Shadow

How about cheering up thinking about the Taliban with nuclear weapons?
/sorry.

Work accident waiting to happen.

283 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:18:32am

re: #261 Russkilitlover

Two were high school kids from San Antonio, and one of those flew into Dallas and was sick during spring break. They're concerned now about any that were on planes with him.

284 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:18:43am

re: #260 Kosh's Shadow

How about cheering up thinking about the Taliban with nuclear weapons?
/sorry.

Thanks, now I'll have to double my dosage just to get through the rest of the day. /

285 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:19:03am

re: #249 Dianna

That's what I think. That's why I don't believe Spencer and Geller have thought it through.

Yes, they have thought it through. I exchanged numerous emails with Spencer when this first came up in 2007. Believe me, he is WELL aware of what he's doing and who he's associating with.

286 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:19:06am

re: #267 johnnyreb

OT

Obama has backed off the torture probe for now:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]


He doesn't have to follow through. The damage is done.

287 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:19:10am

re: #256 Dr. Gene Squat

Have fun guys, I'm gonna stop obsessing about the Eurofascist Conference with RS+PG and PE, It's too depressing.

Yes, it can be depressing but, that does not absolve us from fighting back.

288 johnnyreb  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:19:46am

re: #279 MrSilverDragon

I guess once 44 realized that a good portion of his staff would be publicly shown to have supported the techniques in private meetings, he figured it would be a bad idea. Wasn't it Pelosi that said, "Is that all we're going to do?"

We have to coin a term for multiple flip flops on the same issue, cause it will happen with the big "O".

Any ideas anyone?

289 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:19:59am

re: #276 MandyManners

Do their own egos prevent their carrying this to its logical conclusion?

I can't speak to that. Though, notably, there is always a huge conflict between ego and logic.

290 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:27am

re: #288 johnnyreb

We have to coin a term for multiple flip flops on the same issue, cause it will happen with the big "O".

Any ideas anyone?

An Obama Waffle?

291 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:37am

re: #288 johnnyreb

We have to coin a term for multiple flip flops on the same issue, cause it will happen with the big "O".

Any ideas anyone?

O-scillating

292 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:38am

re: #288 johnnyreb

We have to coin a term for multiple flip flops on the same issue, cause it will happen with the big "O".

Any ideas anyone?

Simple. He "obamaed".

293 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:38am

re: #274 Sharmuta

I eets yoo last

294 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:39am

re: #276 MandyManners

Do their own egos prevent their carrying this to its logical conclusion?

* * * *
Of course, isn't this the same reason big fat rich famous Hollywood types go meet & greet murderous genocidal thugs with Gulags in Cuba for 50 years?

What is more egotistical than glad handing with genocidal totalitarians for a foto op or whatever the thrill is?

295 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:39am

re: #285 Charles

Yes, they have thought it through. I exchanged numerous emails with Spencer when this first came up in 2007. Believe me, he is WELL aware of what he's doing and who he's associating with.

What about Geller?

296 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:47am

re: #285 Charles

Yes, they have thought it through. I exchanged numerous emails with Spencer when this first came up in 2007. Believe me, he is WELL aware of what he's doing and who he's associating with.

Then he has taken a running leap off the cliff.

297 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:20:47am

re: #277 J.S.

CNN the other day had a map thingy going on -- the CNN fellow pointed out all the locations (yeah, on the map) where nuclear material, reactor site locations, etc., were...(basically it's all immediately south of Islamabad...approx. 10 miles). (I don't know, i have mixed feelings about wanting to believe/not believe that CNN is 100 reliable (?), accurate (?) -- since such "news" benefits all and sundry, if you get my drift.)

I'm sure the Pakistani government told CNN exactly where all the material was; they just added "Don't tell India, OK?"
/do I need to?

If the Pakistani government has any intelligence, they recently moved a lot of the material.

298 Land Shark  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:21:04am

re: #236 Sharmuta

I really don't agree, reciprocity is an accepted and commonly practiced concept among sovereign nations. A way to pressure other countries to apply the same protections to our citizens as we do to theirs. I think the issue of the horrible treatment non-Muslims receive in Muslim countries needs to be highlighted, and this is a way to do it. I don't like it, but we are dealing with a religion that does not share our concepts of freedom and tolerance and is actively trying to subjugate us. Indeed, they are using our freedoms to achieve this end.

299 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:21:33am

re: #289 Dianna

I can't speak to that. Though, notably, there is always a huge conflict between ego and logic.

People with warped egos let them get in the way of logic.

300 Shug  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:22:20am

It is such a foolish assumption that so many are making that if you are against Right wing fanatics, somehow you are endorsing Islamic fanatics.

How about just taking a stand against fanatics no matter who they are or what they stand for.

Charles, I am just f-ing baffled how these people are so damned clueless and that they do not get you and what you are saying.
I think they are actually just looking for an excuse to be a fanatic, and using the war against radical Islam as a convenient excuse or as some type of sanction for their own evil behaviors and their associations with evil people.

301 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:23:14am

re: #293 wrenchwench

I eets yoo last

Aww- I love tigers.

302 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:23:30am

re: #294 alegrias

* * * *
Of course, isn't this the same reason big fat rich famous Hollywood types go meet & greet murderous genocidal thugs with Gulags in Cuba for 50 years?

What is more egotistical than glad handing with genocidal totalitarians for a foto op or whatever the thrill is?

"LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

303 Arrr  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:23:33am

I'm a Christopher Hitchens style liberal who proudly voted for Obama and I disagree with more than half of what Charles posts, but I continue to read the site every day, as I have for god knows how many years, because this blog is by far the most intellectually honest out there and has the kind of integrity and consistency that most other blogs don't have.

In addition to the Rathergate incident, Charles Johnson's stand against jihadists, fascists, and the fringe elements of the right is why this site is ultimately a force for good and on the right side of history.

304 MrMisanthrope  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:23:47am

I also need to go off thread for a mo...

Charles, I know you have issues with the DHS memo and Tea Parties, but this is still too funny... especially for anyone who grew up watching or has otherwise seen Joe McCarthy's "Red Scare" 16mm School Films...

[Link: iowahawk.typepad.com...]

Just had to get that off my chest. Back to regularly scheduled deprogramming... ;)

305 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:24:00am

re: #295 MandyManners

What about Geller?

She emotes, she doesn't think.

306 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:24:01am

re: #267 johnnyreb

OT

Obama has backed off the torture probe for now:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Not surprising. I think a lot of the quotes in the MSM and the blogs were a bit overblown.

307 johnnyreb  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:24:17am

Another OT:

Time confirms that the Chairman of the JCS ADM Mullen has traveled to Pakistan twice in the last two weeks:

[Link: www.time.com...]

The administration is officially worried now.

308 Adrenalyn  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:24:39am

I have a real problem referring to these groups as "right wing"

not enough to warrant a downding to the thread
but come on

do they really stand for what I believe the "right wing" is about

lower taxes
more freedomes
LESS GOVERNMENT

no !

these fuckers want to run your life
ruin may be a better word but you get my point

these people really harbor more leftist views than right if you ask me

lefties want more and bigger governement
they want control over your life


just what right wing values to these people have anyway ?

309 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:24:40am

re: #295 MandyManners

What about Geller?

I don't exchange emails with insane people.

310 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:25:10am

re: #303 Arrr

I'm a Christopher Hitchens style liberal who proudly voted for Obama and I disagree with more than half of what Charles posts, but I continue to read the site every day, as I have for god knows how many years, because this blog is by far the most intellectually honest out there and has the kind of integrity and consistency that most other blogs don't have.

In addition to the Rathergate incident, Charles Johnson's stand against jihadists, fascists, and the fringe elements of the right is why this site is ultimately a force for good and on the right side of history.

Well, nobody's perfect.

311 Summer Seale  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:25:39am

re: #26 Charles

Why don't you ask him?

I have asked him, and I have received no reply.

312 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:25:50am

re: #305 Dianna

She emotes, she doesn't think.

Do emos shrug?

313 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:26:05am

re: #309 Charles

I don't exchange emails with insane people.

*zing*

314 Capitalist Tool  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:26:07am

re: #303 Arrr

I'm a Christopher Hitchens style liberal who proudly voted for Obama and I disagree with more than half of what Charles posts, but I continue to read the site every day, as I have for god knows how many years, because this blog is by far the most intellectually honest out there and has the kind of integrity and consistency that most other blogs don't have.

In addition to the Rathergate incident, Charles Johnson's stand against jihadists, fascists, and the fringe elements of the right is why this site is ultimately a force for good and on the right side of history.

That would make you half- right.

315 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:26:57am

re: #253 Charles

Also scheduled to speak at the "Pro Koln" event: Petra Edelmannova.

Good grief.

Robert Spencer's would respond thus: 'Do they oppose Jihad? Yes? Then I stand with them in their opposition to jihad. The other stuff simply does not interest me.'

316 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:27:03am

re: #298 Land Shark

I don't like it, but we are dealing with a religion that does not share our concepts of freedom and tolerance and is actively trying to subjugate us.

You don't see how subjugating their rights undermines our own rights? Individual rights and equality under the law is what sets us apart from islam. If we don't defend those, then we're not going to win.

317 Dianna  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:27:13am

re: #312 MandyManners

Only for dramatic purposes.

318 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:27:18am

re: #302 MandyManners

"LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

* * *
Exactly. Charles Lindbergh, America's sweetheart (and isolationist adulterous pig), couldn't resist glad handing with famous fascists back in the day.

Celebrity and wanting to be at the head of a crowd must be a big motive for media whores.

Also, perhaps, a sense half of Americans aren't serious about the islamist threat might drive some people to do stupid things like associate with fanatics.

319 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:27:40am

re: #293 wrenchwench

I eets yoo last

Iz Cn Have nu SHooze? This is Cinderella (our departed kitty)

320 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:28:52am

re: #315 Jimmah

Good grief.

Robert Spencer's would respond thus: 'Do they oppose Jihad? Yes? Then I stand with them in their opposition to jihad. The other stuff simply does not interest me.'

Gates of Vienna has praised Petra Edelmannova, and is hyping the "Pro Koln" event like crazy.

321 DaddyG  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:29:06am

re: #309 Charles

I don't exchange emails with insane people.

Hey! Does this have anything to do with the lack of personal responses to my messages?

322 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:29:20am

re: #308 Adrenalyn

Th European concert of "right" is very different than the terms was we use them in the US. Do some research, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.

323 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:30:06am

re: #302 MandyManners

"LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

The same urge that brings Obama to gladhand thugs.

324 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:30:15am

re: #322 Walter L. Newton

Th European concert of "right" is very different than the terms was we use them in the US. Do some research, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.

Er "The European concept of..."

325 alegrias  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:30:39am

re: #308 Adrenalyn

I have a real problem referring to these groups as "right wing"

not enough to warrant a downding to the thread
but come on

do they really stand for what I believe the "right wing" is about

lower taxes
more freedomes
LESS GOVERNMENT

no !

these fuckers want to run your life
ruin may be a better word but you get my point

these people really harbor more leftist views than right if you ask me

lefties want more and bigger governement
they want control over your life

just what right wing values to these people have anyway ?

* * * * *
Lower taxes
More freedom
Efficient government
Strong defense
Freedom of belief

That's America to me.

326 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:30:47am

re: #320 Charles

Gates of Vienna has praised Petra Edelmannova, and is hyping the "Pro Koln" event like crazy.

Figures. This kind of event is right up Bodissey's and Dymphna's alley. They still allow Fjordman a platform to spew his racist diatribes.

327 tfc3rid  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:31:19am

re: #252 alegrias

OT
Anyone heard details that Pres. Obama wants to release more Abu Ghraib pictures, and John McCain is opposed?

They aren't Abu Gharib... They are pics of US troops 'interrogating' terrorists...

328 yochanan  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:32:18am

when i was a young man i got arrested at a anti nazi rally in chicago just before the scedualed nazi march in skokie, il. frankly the commies and anarchists who came to fight the cops and the nazi's that the cops were forced to protect both gave me the creeps.

i have no use for nazi's, commies', anarchists, or islmo fascist if any of these got state power they would have no problem with arresting me or even killing me.

329 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:32:26am

re: #253 Charles

Simon Darby, deputy leader of the BNP, said: "There is a Gypsy problem there. What's wrong with people who talk frankly about their problems?"

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

Read about (and listen to, if you want a laugh) Simon Darby's tragically hilarious attempt at being an internet DJ. An especial treat for fans of Steve Coogan's "Alan Partridge" inept tv host/dj character.

330 MrMisanthrope  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:32:37am

Funny thing about those "interrogation" memos...

I suffered worse "torture" during Rush Week at Uni than is described in those memos...

331 Adrenalyn  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:34:05am

re: #322 Walter L. Newton

Th European concert of "right" is very different than the terms was we use them in the US. Do some research, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.


I know that
I just hate seeing the term "right" bandied about
since the Amerikan media uses it to tar "us" with it
overtly or subliminally - they use it

332 Earick  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:34:17am

re: #116 Irish Rose

Already there, darling!

In fact, the wife just hit the blender button. again!

333 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:42:57am

re: #331 Adrenalyn

I know that
I just hate seeing the term "right" bandied about
since the Amerikan media uses it to tar "us" with it
overtly or subliminally - they use it

Well, you may hate seeing it bandied about, but the term "right" when used with these Euro-fascists, is absolutely correct, so why wouldn't the term be used.

I don't understand you?

334 Hhar  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:44:51am

Keep it up Charles. Do not stop.

Niall Ferguson's "War of the World" documents very well how economic crisis degenerates into genocide. These people are dangerous and treacherous.

335 Adrenalyn  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:57:04am

re: #333 Walter L. Newton

Well, you may hate seeing it bandied about, but the term "right" when used with these Euro-fascists, is absolutely correct, so why wouldn't the term be used.

I don't understand you?

shucks, I thought I was clear

I don't trust the American media to use their "right wingers"
to imply that our "right wingers"
are racist nuts too

336 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:01:59am

re: #332 Earick

Already there, darling!

In fact, the wife just hit the blender button. again!

I'm off to the pub tonight for an evening of bawdy drinking songs and debauchery, so I'm starting light... rum and coke.

337 Henchman Ghazi-808  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:02:23am

Ya know, I wish Kos and Huff would spend as much time checking stock on their own as much as Charles has done with fellow 'conservatives'.

They'd rather keep trying to prosecute Bush and Cheney.

338 Irish Rose  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:03:45am

re: #320 Charles

Gates of Vienna has praised Petra Edelmannova, and is hyping the "Pro Koln" event like crazy.

You're not really surprise, are you?

339 sevoguy  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:04:26am

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

What am I now> I'm I a Republican or a Conservative Republican or may I'm just a Conservative period.

After 12 or 16 years of Republican control in both the House and the White House---------The Republicans failed miserably. They were voted out. Maybe we should all abandon the GOP and start a 3rd party and call it the Conservative Party and only allow those Republicans that actually did the things while in power that helped this country. Like any Republican who voted against securing the borders should not be allowed in this New Conservative Party.

There are many instances where the Republicans should have voted as one unified voice and didn't. Instead the special interests won the day in republican voting and now they are out of power as a result.

One other thought: The liberals did everything in there power to bring down the Bush presidency that they now are ruling a very weak United States. We will never come back from this weakened state we find ourselves in. Nor do we deserve to be a superpower. Then again, after the Jimmy Carter failed presidency, we came back stronger than ever. Hopefully it will happen again. Only a new infusion of Conservatism will bring this about.

God Bless America and may her enemies, both domestic and foreign, be defeated and destroyed.

340 Athos  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:14:32am

re: #339 sevoguy

There are many instances where the Republicans should have voted as one unified voice and didn't. Instead the special interests won the day in republican voting and now they are out of power as a result.

If this one unified voice includes the right wing fringe groups, the neo-nazis and fascists, the racists and supremacists, and those who advocate a religious belief is science to be forced on school children, then this voice does not represent the true values of this country as established by the founding fathers. This voice would represent and provide recognition for odious viewpoints and groups that do not support individual rights - but a groupthink every bit as repulsive and elitist as the far left's.

The losses of the GOP came from forgetting their core values and vision, from being unable to articulate their core values and vision to the American people, and from a fear to lead with character and principle.

341 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:20:46am

re: #0 Charles

Here's a translation of that text from Dutch, done by yours truly. Hardly perfect English, since I was doing this quickly, but it might be clearer than a Google translation:

With Pro-Köln there are a number of neo-nazis. The party tries to distance itself from this sort of groups publicly, and for instance asked themselves for politce intervention against around 50 skinheads from the NPD. A number of leaders of the Pro Köln does however come from the radical neo-Nazi organisation themselves (somewhat inaccurate, NPD is assuredly fascist, but hardly "radical neo-Nazi, my note), next to others that come from the Republicans (a small fascist party, my note). These figures formed the movement Pro Köln together 10 years ago. The leader of Pro Köln, Manfred Roush, was the regional leader of the NPD Youth in the late 1980s.

Amongst the guests of honour at the demonstration of Pro Köln were Bart Debie of the Vlaams Belang, but also Reinhard Günzel, a supporter of the nazi Hermann Göring. Günzel is a former military man which once told his soliders that they should show the same discipline as "the Spartans, the Romans or the Waffen-SS". On the demonstration last Satuday, the former (police) agent Debie and the former military man Günzel showed their united opposition against "the Islam". The call of Pro Köln was clear: opposition against the expansion of a mosque, but also against Islam in general.

Pro Köln still has friendly ties with known neo-nazis. Alex Reitz is one of the most well-known neo-nazis in Germany. In 1999 he offered his help for the election campaign of Pro Köln. Below you will see a picture of Reitz together with the leader of Pro Köln, Manfred Rouhs. At the time it was also done work together with extreme right criminals such as Ulrich Klöries, who was convicted to 15 years in prison for murder. Klöries was a candidate for the list DLVH - a forerunner list for Pro Köln - in 1994 (you will find a picture of Rouhs together with Klöries) below. Another candidate of the DLVH (German League for Volk and Heimat) was Thomas Adolf which was responsible for a triple murder in 2003 and was convicted for this. Manfred Rouhs and Markus Beisichts were then already the leading figures of DLVH.

342 Kenneth  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:26:31am

re: #334 Hhar

Keep it up Charles. Do not stop.

Niall Ferguson's "War of the World" documents very well how economic crisis degenerates into genocide. These people are dangerous and treacherous.

An excellent book! Very chilling to read about the bloody history of the early 20th century and then pick up the paper and read the headlines... many of the same conditions are developing again.

343 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:29:57am
344 Land Shark  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:48:25am

re: #316 Sharmuta

I understand what you're trying to say, but it still doesn't alter the facts. Islam is a supremacist religion whose ultimate goal is the imposition of the brutality of Sharia law. To force the entire world to submit to Islam.

If Muslims were only interested in practicing their religion in peace and leave others in peace, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But we both know that isn't so. This is a totalitarian belief system that sees no separation between mosque and state. Islam's history has been consistent, wherever Islam grows, the rights and quality of life of non-Muslims deteriorate in direct proportion to the growth of Islam. That's just how it is. I don't support restricting anyone's rights, but we need to identify those who would restrict or take away our rights and protect ourselves from them.

345 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:49:02am

re: #202 Ontheleftcoast

The blokbuster.be site is clearly a hard left site. It is anti-capitalist, anti-globalization and prominently quotes Malcolm X and Trotsky.

blokbuster.be was founded by Vonk, a decidedly hard-left and also Trotskist group. However, the information provided on the web site can be checked towards other sources, and is usually solid. Thing is... it's mostly not that difficult to prove the fascist leanings of considerable parts of the European "populist right".

346 descolada9  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:51:42am

Well, once upon a time I had a gooddeal of respect for Mr. Spencer. Those days are long gone now. It is too bad to see someone like him go insane.

347 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:53:26am

re: #344 Land Shark

Um- there are muslims who are "interested in practicing their religion in peace and leave others in peace". Most of them get demonized for not being "real" muslims by not only the islamists, but certain "counter-jihadis" as well.

348 JHW  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 11:59:09am

IIRC Kilgore asked yesterday if there were other movements in Europe sharing similarities with these groups. I was very late to the thread, so I didn't submit an answer (I'm very busy on a local project at the moment). Anyway, I'll submit a few I've found information on earlier from a variety of sources, which should be fairly easy to cross check to avoid the shoot the messenger retort that comes from using only their political opponents, usually on the Left, as sources. There are far more of these organizations than I had suspected, spanning the European continent. It will be very interesting, and pertinent, to see if any of these groups' representatives attend this conference.

A somewhat bare bones overview listing movements in Greece, Switzerland, Austria and others as well as the welll known ones.

An incident involving National Rank a Serbian nationalist party described as neo-Nazi, who along with some pals from Bulgaria and Slovakia were having a get-together (march) timed to coincide on Heinrich Himmler"s birthday.

More on this incident from the Sofia [Bulgaria] News Agency

Greece Golden Dawn take a gander at the flags, what groups do they remind you of ? Information on Golden Dawn is readily available with a Google search.

Hungary , a Fascist Revival

And a very good article from the EU Observer, explaining the growing appeal of these parties.

Crisis likely to bolster far right in EU Parliament


UK Labour MEP Glyn Ford, one of the parliament's own leading experts on extreme right parties and author of the European Parliament's landmark 1991 inquiry into racism and xenophobia in Europe, has said that ahead of the financial crisis, the various far-right parties were already on track to achieving a rise in their numbers from the current 57 deputies to between 60 and 70 in the June 2009 elections.

However, if the financial crisis results in a sharp increase in unemployment across the bloc, Mr Ford worries that such parties will take advantage of the anger and bitterness such economic dislocation causes and achieve an even higher seat count.

"The 'Fascist Right' would probably win high twenties to low thirties," given their current levels of support in different member states, Mr Ford predicts. "Equally, the 'Fascist Lite' parties would gain thirty to forty seats."

The centre-left deputy and watcher of the far right across Europe distinguishes between the hardcore neo-fascism of groups such as the Greater Romania Party and the British National Party, and the anti-immigrant, Islamophobic populists of such tendencies as the Freedom Party of Geert Wilders in the Netherlands and the Danish People's Party, who nonetheless have no fascist roots.

"It's complicated because they're not all classic fascist groupings ...but we're likely to see them both grow. Not everywhere, but there's been a continuous secular growth election after election for the last 25 years."

349 sevoguy  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 12:22:30pm

Athos

The losses of the GOP came from forgetting their core values and vision, from being unable to articulate their core values and vision to the American people, and from a fear to lead with character and principle.

You hit the nail on the head. And I'm not talking about the right wing fringe. I'm talking about middle America. Those of us who pay the taxes, the producers and contributors of society, those of us you fight the wars and bleed for this country. A new conservative party; one that will not bad the GOPer's that failed this country by supporting special interest groups and not the core values of the Republican parties.

350 martinsmithy  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 12:43:30pm

The only question remaining for Robert Spencer is this:

Are you allied with these disreputable people because you generally agree with all of their views, or are you allied with these disreputable people because they agree with your views on Islam, and you are willing to conveniently overlook what else they believe in?

351 Yashmak  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 12:48:37pm

re: #344 Land Shark


If Muslims were only interested in practicing their religion in peace and leave others in peace, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But we both know that isn't so.

I've known a total of 8 Islamic individuals in my life, 7 of whom were from Saudi Arabia. Not exactly a huge sample of the whole, I know. I can tell you one thing about them though. Not one of them had any desire to impose their religion on non-believers or members of other religions, although they were very happy to talk about their beliefs when I asked questions out of curiosity.

You may 'know that isn't so'. . .but that doesn't mean what you know is correct.

352 Athos  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:02:11pm

re: #350 martinsmithy

The only question remaining for Robert Spencer is this:

Are you allied with these disreputable people because you generally agree with all of their views, or are you allied with these disreputable people because they agree with your views on Islam, and you are willing to conveniently overlook what else they believe in?

See this link - it contains a direct quote from Spencer which directly answers your question.

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

He's willing to conveniently overlook what else they believe in because they fight jihad. It is the definition of moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

353 dry_heavz_4_alla  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:02:33pm

re: #239 Charles
Robert

I haven't "joined" anyone. The quote from Blokwatch Brussels Journal contains things known as "facts." Facts are neither left wing nor right wing. And recognizing facts does not mean that I'm "joining" with Blokwatch Brussels Journal or their other agendas.

However, in their opposition to the Vlaams Belang Jihadists and other Eurofascists Islamofascists, they are absolutely spot on.

Not sure I completely buy into the "friend of my enemy" argument, but I can see the logic (see example above ... no offense intended). In the end, I suppose it comes down to which "enemy of my enemy" you consider the bigger threat. If it had been Russia expanding westward, would we have allied with the Nazis out of expedience? Which group (the neo-Fascists or Jihadists) poses a bigger threat to Europe today? Which is established within the ruling elite as a protected-class victim, and which is relatively marginalized and only able to gain because of our own inaction?

There is a growing desire in people to do more than sit on their collective hands and shout into the ethereal darkness of the blogosphere. Unfortunately, our selected leaders seem to prefer sitting on the sidelines ... not organizing tea parties, but casting doubts on those that do ... not organizing anti-jihad conferences, but leaving that to the extremists. I think many are giving up and joining what mobs are available with the hope of ultimately "taming the tiger" ... a risky gambit.

Zombie is correct in stating that protests leave you open to kooky associations, but the Dems seem to have overcome those associations enough to win the entire government. And even the tactic of "party-crashing" events organized by kooks occassionally succeeds in diverting the mob towards moderation (hopefully Spencer's tact). But in the end, this is a gamble that only history can judge. Can Spencer et al ride in on Pro-Köln then shake them free? Can Obama shake MoveOn? Can Pakistan shake the Taleban? Or do they all actually have a tiger by the tail?

354 MPH  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:22:09pm

re: #5 MrSilverDragon

When will someone explain to him that Nazis are bad?

They know damn well who they are associating with. It can't be obscured anymore.

355 Ontheleftcoast  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #264 Charles

No, I'll continue to read you. What I'm commenting about is that you've delinked blogs which were sometimes factual even though odious in their associations and here you're linking a blog which even though it has a fact straight is likewise odious in its associations.
I admit that it isn't a website I'm familiar with but I'm familiar with its rhetoric and its heroes. I have found the combination to be associated with a willingness to knowingly use lies as well as truth in the service of ideology. If the anti VB site is unusual and restricts itself to using the truth in the service of its ideology, I am happy to learn of that

356 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:25:13pm

re: #353 dry_heavz_4_alla

They all have a tiger by the tail.

357 Ontheleftcoast  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:26:50pm

re: #345 oslogin

My point exactly. If it can be corroborated by a less tendentious source, do so and cite that source.

358 MPH  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:33:29pm

re: #19 KingKenrod

Does David Horowitz endorse all this? He continues to sponsor Spencer on his website.

David Horowitz does more than "sponsor" Robert Spencer. According to David Horowitz Freedom Center tax records, he pays Spencer a six-figure salary to run JihadWatch.

Follow the money....

359 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:36:02pm

re: #355 Ontheleftcoast

No, I'll continue to read you. What I'm commenting about is that you've delinked blogs which were sometimes factual even though odious in their associations and here you're linking a blog which even though it has a fact straight is likewise odious in its associations.

Do you see a link to that site in our blogroll, or in our RSS feeds, or in our news sources?

When they have information that is factual, and is pertinent to the article I'm writing, I have no hesitation about quoting that information and providing the link so that others can double-check it for themselves.

360 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:36:05pm

re: #358 MPH

Is this on the internet somewhere linkable?

361 dry_heavz_4_alla  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 1:49:03pm

re: #352 Athos

You had me up until the "definition of moral and intellectual bankruptcy" part. By that definition, the WW2 Allied leaders, pre-Carter Shah-backers, Taliban-backing Ronald Reagan, etc. were morally and intellectually bankrupt. Mistaken, maybe (in the case of Reagan), but morally and intellectually bankrupt?

362 Athos  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:02:37pm

re: #361 dry_heavz_4_alla

You had me up until the "definition of moral and intellectual bankruptcy" part. By that definition, the WW2 Allied leaders, pre-Carter Shah-backers, Taliban-backing Ronald Reagan, etc. were morally and intellectually bankrupt. Mistaken, maybe (in the case of Reagan), but morally and intellectually bankrupt?

Just because others decided that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' is easier doesn't make it a fundamentally bankrupt decision. That's the defense of Spencer and Geller - since all of these groups are fighting jihad, and we are fighting jihad, we will join / support them.

The fringe neo-nazi right in Europe are so small and so fringe that they will not make a difference in the fight against jihadism. Getting Geller, Spencer, and others as useful idiots does more for their recognition and exposure than it does for fighting jihad - now they can exclaim to the rest of Europe, see, the American conservatives are with us. We ARE respectable.

We can fight this fight without embracing and enabling those who stand against all of the values that we stand for. We don't need to enable them. They need us far more than we need them.

363 Sacred Plants  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:03:34pm

Mr. Spencer -

In reality, the fact that we were invited to speak indicates in itself that Pro-Köln is not a neo-Nazi group. We are known to be pro-Israel, and if I go I would speak in defense of Israel and against neo-Nazism, Holocaust denial, etc. Outside of Charles Johnson's fantasies, no one has ever actually seen a pro-Israel neo-Nazi.

Noone has ever seen a pro-anyone Nazi, all of them have always been anti-everyone. But they have always put their enemies in different order. You can find Nazis who hate the West more than they hate Islam, and you can find Nazis who hate Islam more than they hate the West. If you go to Germany you can verify that the prevailing order of hatred correlates with which side of the then iron curtain you look on. Koln is in West Germany.

The fact that not all Nazis subscribe to the same order of hatred shaped the rise of Nazism. Historically it has been driven by a division of labor between enablers and guards, with the first masquerading as nationalists and the latter masquerading as socialists (therefore: nationalsocialists).

Now someone on the internet keeps telling you that the people you are dealing with were Nazis of the one kind. You can easily verify this by asking those people about the other kind. For the Pro Koln case: They are suspected enablers. So do they admit that guards exist in the same society? How do they stand towards the critics of the Nazi guards?

Don´t get pied in checking it out.

364 MPH  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:04:39pm

re: #360 wrenchwench

Is this on the internet somewhere linkable?

Non-profit income tax forms go into the public domain.

[Link: www.guidestar.org...]

See page 10 for compensation information.

2007 compensation: $126,500 "Jihad Watch Director"

Robert Spencer is the highest paid employee at the David Horowitz Freedom Center.

365 dry_heavz_4_alla  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:12:06pm

re: #356 Sharmuta

They all have a tiger by the tail.

You may well be right. But, as someone observed yesterday, in pre-War Germany you were either a Nazi or a Commie ... there was no in-between. And from my personal experience there, I think that mentality has somehow become the facade of the quaint "old European" body politic. I've seen perfectly reasonable people march with the kookiest of rabble-rousers and shout all kinds of hyperbole, then vote Social Democrat.

The Europeans will talk the extremist talk (left and right), but ultimately end up walking the moderate walk. When they do actually vote for an extremist, it's usually because the moderate opposition has been unresponsive to a specific issue. If the extremist exercises too much power, there tends to be a quick backlash. This becomes a dangerous game, however, when they over-estimate their ability to pull in the reigns (as we are learning here with Obama).

366 dry_heavz_4_alla  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:32:45pm

re: #362 Athos

... The fringe neo-nazi right in Europe are so small and so fringe that they will not make a difference in the fight against jihadism. Getting Geller, Spencer, and others as useful idiots does more for their recognition and exposure than it does for fighting jihad - now they can exclaim to the rest of Europe, see, the American conservatives are with us. We ARE respectable.

As it is, the stereotypical "American conservative" isn't much more respectable than these guys, in the eyes of the European Left. As for the Center, yes, if you don't specifically denounce the positions espoused by the organizers, you risk giving them credence (or losing the respect of your audience ... depending on who is actually in the audience). Much would depend on how it's spun in the press to the larger public, and given the European press, I share your pessimism.

We can fight this fight without embracing and enabling those who stand against all of the values that we stand for ...

Then PLEASE, for the sake of the Enlightenment and Western Civilization, please start fighting! There are restless hordes milling about! Stop standing by and letting the extremists take the lead! [I would take the lead, but I have to pick my daughter up from dance class.]

367 dry_heavz_4_alla  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:35:33pm

That 2nd to last paragraph should have been in blockquotes, since it was from Athos.

Must ... use ... preview .... ahhhhhh
-- James T. Kirk, 1969

368 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:54:08pm

To the defenders of Pam and Robert: Would you be defending them if they showed up at a conference in the US speaking beside Don Black and Chuck Baldwin? They are speaking beside the Euro equivalents.

369 MPH  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 2:57:31pm

re: #368 Thanos

To the defenders of Pam and Robert: Would you be defending them if they showed up at a conference in the US speaking beside Don Black and Chuck Baldwin? They are speaking beside the Euro equivalents.

It won't be long before they are standing side-by-side in this country...

370 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 3:02:19pm

re: #348 JHW

IIRC Kilgore asked yesterday if there were other movements in Europe sharing similarities with these groups.

YAAHGH! I nearly reported that comment when I meant to favourite it...

371 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 3:12:36pm
372 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 3:40:04pm

re: #371 Zack

Get off my website.

373 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 3:51:33pm

re: #371 Zack

The U.S. alliance with Stalin during WWII comes to mind. A valid argument has often been made that our ally in that case was as bad or worse than our enemy. An equally valid case can be made that militant Islam has proven staying power far beyond Fascism and Communism, is even more genocidal than both, and therefore represents an even greater threat. In this light, criticism of Ms Geller and Mr Spencer is overly harsh.

I refuse to share a foxhole with neoeuronazis simply because they find it politically useful to declare themselves antijihadi. We have enough bullets whizzing into our foxholes from Islamofacists from across the line without also exposing ourselves to long knives in the back from treacherous eurofascists. And who doubts that their cynical and manipulating ways would not cause them to turn to bread-breaking with those with whom they share a virulent Jew-hatred and a shared Third Reich history, as soon as they perceived personal benefit in doing so?

There disgusting parasites vampirize antijihadi crediblity, and suck it into their own despicable movement, benefitting themselves, but costing us, in the process. They'll cost us far more support among decent mainstream people everywhere who still possess a modicum of personal integrity than they'll ever lend us, due to the unquestionable moral dimension. Including mine. My father and uncles fought against their ideological progenitors in WW II, and one of my uncles died of wounds he received there. Literally millions of Americans, Australians, Canadians and Europeans have similar family stories. NO WAY will I join hands with those whose hands bear the bloodstains of my family members! Some stances and associations are so irretrievably unethical and downright evil that no person of good conscience could even begin to consider contemplating stomaching them. If my choice is to stand against jihadism alongside intellectual legacy Nazis or to stand against it alone, I will unhesitatingly choose the latter. But that is a false choice, because there will always be plenty of decent human beings to stand beside me, who reject fascism in all its forms, be it Islamo or Euroneo. Far more than will ever support resorting to the return of jackboots and ovens in order to fight beheading swords.

374 ayatollah ghilmeini  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 4:35:37pm

I wrote an email to Robert Spencer via FrongPageMagazine.

HE SAYS HE IS NOT GOING TO THE CONFERENCE!

Pam Geller may be there but per Mr. Spencer, he is not going.

I am forwarding the correspondence to Charles and request he retract this post ASAP.

375 Render  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 5:28:38pm

What exactly is it that these so-called "anti-jihadist" bloggers do that qualifies them as being anti-jihadist? Because spending the hubbies car dealership money on jetting off to Euro-conferences with neo-nazis isn't helpful.

Is whatever it is that they do anything like what the US military is doing in Afghanistan and Iraq? Is it anywhere close to the fantastic work that Bill Roggio, DJ Elliott, and company over on the Long War Journal are doing? Is it anything close to the works of Michael Yon or Michael Totten? Is anywhere close the work of James Dunnigan and the denizens of the Strategypage?

I don't think so, and I would have good reason to know.

===

The roots of the jihadi movement tree are not found in Western nations, those are but branches and leaves. Even if you remove every leaf and branch, (the Geller-Spencer Final Solution), a tree may still survive. No matter how much you trim, it will still be a tree. Attack the roots of that tree and it will wither and suffer, this we have already seen evidence of in Iraq and Afghanistan. Remove the roots of that tree and it will die, without question.

===

Maybe Geller and Spencer's version of an "anti-jihad" is similar to one of VB's other associations in the US, Pat Buchanan, who has always been against the Iraq theater of this war, because it supposedly aids Israel. And Pat Buchanan is against anything that aids Israel.

Of course, PB is all for a "surge" into Afghanistan, but Pat's grasp of the significance of military history is well noted for being lost in a fantasy world of Holocaust Denial, sympathy for Nazis, and a pathological hatred of Jews.

===

There will never be a nazi in my foxhole...because I don't have a foxhole.

I've counted the odds, I know the only way to even those odds out is to stay on the move, on the attack. Hit and run all the way to Berlin and beyond.

WOLF
MOON,
R

376 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 5:43:00pm

re: #374 ayatollah ghilmeini

I wrote an email to Robert Spencer via FrongPageMagazine.

HE SAYS HE IS NOT GOING TO THE CONFERENCE!

Pam Geller may be there but per Mr. Spencer, he is not going.

I am forwarding the correspondence to Charles and request he retract this post ASAP.

I'm not going to retract anything. Every word I wrote above was true. The conference organizers confirmed that Spencer was attending.

And in fact, Spencer's latest rant about me DOES NOT say he won't be attending the conference. It says he is "looking into the group and the people involved."

Why? I thought I was just fantasizing. What's he worried about?

377 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:21:33pm

re: #374 ayatollah ghilmeini

I wrote an email to Robert Spencer via FrongPageMagazine.

HE SAYS HE IS NOT GOING TO THE CONFERENCE!

Pam Geller may be there but per Mr. Spencer, he is not going.

I am forwarding the correspondence to Charles and request he retract this post ASAP.

ghilmeini: the way to handle mail from people like that is to forward the letter, with headers, and point out the contradiction. Or save the letter with headers and post its content here.

You'd have got updings for that.

378 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:27:46pm

re: #366 dry_heavz_4_alla

As it is, the stereotypical "American conservative" isn't much more respectable than these guys, in the eyes of the European Left. As for the Center, yes, if you don't specifically denounce the positions espoused by the organizers, you risk giving them credence (or losing the respect of your audience ... depending on who is actually in the audience). Much would depend on how it's spun in the press to the larger public, and given the European press, I share your pessimism.

[Athos: We can fight this fight without embracing and enabling those who stand against all of the values that we stand for ...]

Then PLEASE, for the sake of the Enlightenment and Western Civilization, please start fighting! There are restless hordes milling about! Stop standing by and letting the extremists take the lead! [I would take the lead, but I have to pick my daughter up from dance class.]

This post attracted downdings: why is that? It seems to be in the mainstream of our thought process here...

379 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:29:49pm

re: #341 oslogin

Here's a translation of that text from Dutch, done by yours truly. Hardly perfect English, since I was doing this quickly, but it might be clearer than a Google translation:

Excellent, thank you. I've updated the post with your translation.

380 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:43:58pm

re: #366 dry_heavz_4_alla

Then PLEASE, for the sake of the Enlightenment and Western Civilization, please start fighting! There are restless hordes milling about! Stop standing by and letting the extremists take the lead! [I would take the lead, but I have to pick my daughter up from dance class.]

I think I see some ways in which that post might have rubbed some the wrong way.

In context, you posted this after an earlier post (an eloquent one, if completely wrongheaded) in which you were saying it might be wise to join up with JihadWatch in view of the longer struggle for the West. Anyone who's been here a week should know that that would be an downding magnet.

Then you seemed to walk that back (and I dinged you up for it), but there were two points which might stick in Charles's craw (especially). You were directing the point mainly at Athos and secondarily at the rest of us; that we need to "start fighting". Charles has done more of this verbal "fighting" than you imagine. And you didn't help your case by saying "I'd lead this battle myself, but I'd rather spend time helping my daughter do something comparatively frivolous".

If you're suggesting someone create a rival "antijihad conference", but hold the racism, good luck with that. I'd support it, myself; but I'd keep a close eye on who else was showing up.

381 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:48:02pm

re: #334 Hhar

Keep it up Charles. Do not stop.

Niall Ferguson's "War of the World" documents very well how economic crisis degenerates into genocide. These people are dangerous and treacherous.

A great book. Ought to be on everyone's reading list here.

382 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 6:56:06pm

re: #376 Charles

What if the conference organizers are not telling the truth?

Spencer has sent me yet another email:

I saw that he retracts nothing!

Just as I predicted!

Good for him. But he will have a bit of egg on his face when I don't actually show up in Cologne.

I think Robert Spencer and Charles are being abused. If these guys are fascists, people who support Israel are their ultimate enemy and nothing would delight them more than to see fractures in our ranks.

I would ask that Charles at least note Spencer's claim he is not attending and act accordingly if he does attend.

Someone here is wrong and it may not be Spencer or Charles.

As they say. Consider the source.

383 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:04:24pm

re: #382 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Robert Spencer is off the rails. I don't believe a word he says.

Here are the possibilities:

1) a lapse in communication between Spencer and the Pro Koln creeps,

2) the Pro Koln creeps lied about Spencer confirming, or

3) Spencer lied about not confirming, and is now trying to cover his ass.

384 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:05:18pm

If Spencer does NOT attend this meeting, I'll definitely note it.

But probably not in a way he's going to like.

385 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:13:13pm

re: #382 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

What if the conference organizers are not telling the truth?

Spencer has sent me yet another email:


I think Robert Spencer and Charles are being abused. If these guys are fascists, people who support Israel are their ultimate enemy and nothing would delight them more than to see fractures in our ranks.

Israel is not their ultimate enemy. The Eurofascists're too fractured; the Pro Koeln crowd in particular are not anti-zionists. Read or re-read gegenkritik's reports. The Eurofascists have a wide array of enemies they can draw on to get their public support. And they have a wide array of unpleasant traits beyond anti-zionism (we might start with anti-semitism against those Jews in Europe who have made homes in Europe and don't WANT to make aliya).

I would ask that Charles at least note Spencer's claim he is not attending and act accordingly if he does attend.

Someone here is wrong and it may not be Spencer or Charles.

As they say. Consider the source.

I'd refer you to post #720 in the Twitter thread but Charles did that while I was writing this...

386 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:27:28pm

re: #382 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Perhaps the better thing to ask robert in an email is if he denounces pro-koln.

387 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 7:42:04pm

re: #382 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I would ask that Charles at least note Spencer's claim he is not attending and act accordingly if he does attend.

Spencer has not publicly said he won't be attending the Pro Koln meeting. He may have said that to you in an email, but on his public website he is saying something very different -- he's saying he hasn't confirmed he'll attend, and he's "looking into the people behind it."

Maybe it would have been better to look into those people before he got involved in this.

388 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:03:40pm

re: #384 Charles

If Spencer does NOT attend this meeting, I'll definitely note it.

That is fair and nothing less than what I have come to expect.


re: #385 Zimriel

I think I can count on these fascists to stay true to their beloved Hitler. You don't invite David Duke and David Irving to your rallies if you are going to go all soft and mushy in your National Socialism. The only reason these barbarians aren't even more active against Jews and Israel is they fear assassination by Mossad. If any of these guys ever come to power (heaven forfend) Israel will act against them.

re: #387 Charles

Spencer has not publicly said he won't be attending the Pro Koln meeting. He may have said that to you in an email, but on his website he is saying something very different.

I will ask him to do so. I think this whole issue has gotten way overblown.

389 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:24:09pm

re: #388 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

If I thought it would help to recap everything that's gone on since 2007, I would recap it for you. If I could list all the obfuscation and non-commitment that's been pushed up our backside with a nod and a smile to the euros, I would list it.

I can certainly understand being reluctant to think mr spencer was capable of this, but the facts speak for themselves. robert and pamela were warned about these groups, and instead of heeding a call for caution, they went on the attack. Not robert at first, however. Indeed- he's been trying to have it both ways for a very long time now. But I don't think it's something I can point out, and suddenly have you see it. I think people have to figure it out for themselves.

So- to that extent, I wish you good luck with your request that robert make a public statement on his attendance or lack thereof. However, it is my personal opinion that he will not publicly accept or reject this invitation, because it's more important to mr spencer to play games with Charles than it is to distance himself from nazis. (That might tell you something about him, btw.)

390 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:40:16pm

re: #389 Sharmuta

I have asked him to put up notice he is not going on his site and he has promised to do so.

Clearly there is a history. I am not going to insert myself any further than I have.

I find it incongruous that the same Robert Spencer who has a working relationship with Geert Wilders would be a Vlaams Belang supporter.

Let us see how things shakeout.

goodnight

391 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:53:06pm

re: #390 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I find it incongruous that the same Robert Spencer who has a working relationship with Geert Wilders would be a Vlaams Belang supporter.

You're aware that Mr Wilders himself is now considering working with vlaams belang?

392 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 8:57:21pm

re: #390 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I have asked him to put up notice he is not going on his site and he has promised to do so.

If he's not going to the Pro Koln conference, why hasn't he said so? How difficult is it to post a notice that he won't be attending the conference?

Why is he attacking me for pointing out the neo-Nazi connections of the organizers instead, accusing me of lying about it and "fantasizing?" Even while he says he's looking into their backgrounds?

You're being played.

393 swamprat  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 9:39:46pm

video of last years entertainment at the conference;

394 meeshlr  Fri, Apr 24, 2009 10:13:35pm

re: #344 Land Shark

Not all Muslims want to impose their religion on everyone else. Most Muslims in North America want to practice their religion while following the laws of our society. They don't want to impose Sharia law.

We should oppose those who do want to force Islam on everyone and impose Sharia law but don't assume that applies to all Muslims.

395 Phaneul  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:08:41am

2 Killgore Trout
4/24/09 8:41:28 am reply quote

At first it looked like they might rethink attending but I think ultimately all this attention forced them to go just to defy Charles.

Really? ~snork~

396 Sacred Plants  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 2:24:17am

re: #375 Render

The roots of the jihadi movement tree are not found in Western nations, those are but branches and leaves. Even if you remove every leaf and branch, (the Geller-Spencer Final Solution), a tree may still survive. No matter how much you trim, it will still be a tree. Attack the roots of that tree and it will wither and suffer, this we have already seen evidence of in Iraq and Afghanistan. Remove the roots of that tree and it will die, without question.

The Eurofascists do not aim to kill that tree of death. The idea is to engraft the saplings from the stump of their own one. Regrets to the Israelis that they can´t choose their friends.

397 Irish Rose  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 5:49:53am

This is absolutely devestating, Charles.
Sick, sick, sick.

I find it incredible that there are still decent people out there who will just explain it away, dismiss it, and continue to defend them.

I find it even more incredible that some of these people attack you openly and smear you reflexively for simply posting this information... talk about missing the target.

398 Totally Berserk  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 6:21:53am

Why the fauxtography? How is it they are shaking hands in bright sunlight but the crowd behind them is rallying on an overcast day? And why is a bit of the guy on the left's shoulder missing?

Just curious.

399 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 7:01:48am

re: #398 Totally Berserk

Why the fauxtography? How is it they are shaking hands in bright sunlight but the crowd behind them is rallying on an overcast day? And why is a bit of the guy on the left's shoulder missing?

Just curious.

Faux?

IMO, there's not enough evidence in that one small photo to support that conclusion.

The crowd behind is in a bit of shadow (from a building on the left?) but shadows on banners match the angle of sunlight on the two men's faces.

The "missing piece" of coat might (might, I can't tell) be a fold in the fabric. His right shoulder is, in fact, up-raised as he's shaking hands.

I'd want to see a MUCH larger image.

400 marsl  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 7:23:24am

The Lizard Boss is now being accused by Jihad Watch of fauxtography.

For what I know of Charles, he is not the kind of men do to such things. I believe he was deceived by the someone who send him that photo. Because those guys in the crowd are antifascists. No way those two Euro-Nazis would be there with that crowd.

As an european, the fight against islamofascism can only be done respecting freedom, as Charles said. The crazys jihadis are a minority in here, like in the USA. Defending the murder all european muslims or all the american muslims just because a minority wants a world ruled by Sharia, is insane. Charles is right. We can only fight it defending what is most sacred to us: freedom. The euro-nazis are not allies. They are the enemy, like the islamofascists.

When Spencer associates himself with euro-nazis, he cannot escape to be called a nazi supporter. Sleeping with dogs.... wake with fleas.

401 gegenkritik  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 7:29:44am

Hey all. Something more about pro Köln: their "pro-Israel"-stance is relatively new, it's mainly PI-news-founder Stefan Herre, who appears at their demonstrations with israeli-flags. He was also the one to interview former CDU deputy mayor of district Cologne-Ehrenfeld (where the mosque will be built), Jörg Uckermann, who is now one of the leading figures of pro-Köln, and it was Herre who convinced him to to take a "pro-Israel"-stance.
Some years ago, pro-Köln was openly hostile towards Israel: here's a leaflet (Google translated) that was handed out by pro-Köln's student-organization, entitled "Solidarity with Palestine!". You'll find the typical anti-zionism in it: Israel is waging war against the Palestinians, Ariel Sharon is seeking for cruel vengeance, the German Goverment should not deliver weapons but put pressure on Israel.
Two years ago, pro-Köln defended the stance of the German Bishops, who compared the situation of the Palestinians with the Jews in the Warsaw-Ghetto (Here is a LGF-post about this).
To be fair, all this is still not a real Nazi-position, and it is the common stance of 90% of Germans. But there is more: their agitation against the planned Jewish museum in Cologne. The background: after the destruction of most Jewish buildings in Cologne in the Nazi-era, a private foundation was fundraising for a museum about the Jewish history in Cologne. The foundation got the building permission, but suddenly, nearly all media as well as the city council were against the museum.
The only newspapers that were still in favor of the planned museum, were those of the Axel Springer AG, who are often attacked by leftists, muslims and Neonazis alike because of their Corporate principles ("To promote reconciliation of Jews and Germans and support the vital rights of the State of Israel"). Neonazis and other Anti-semites often take this point to lament about the "jewish controlled media" ("Verjudete Presse" was the original slogan in the Nazi-era) and it's very clear that pro-Köln is referring to this.

All this shows, that pro-Köln's pro-Israel-attitude is essentially a fake.

402 Totally Berserk  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 7:36:42am

re: #399 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Here's a much larger picture for you.

403 ayatollah ghilmeini  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 7:44:09am

Couple of morning points. I think everyone knows me well enough to know that I take second to no one in my contempt and hatred for fascists and neo-nazis. While it is hypothetically possibly Robert Spencer is playing me, anyone who read his messages to me would see the truth in his words by their very vehemence.

I used to like Pam Geller, I feel very sorry for her. She will one day realize her mistake but she deserves everything she gets if she goes. Vlaams and the other groups are Hitler's illegitimate spawn and should be treated accordingly. I have written many times that the failure of mainstream European parties to defends their democracies has opened the door to the fascists. There is a deep and raw undercurrent in Europe and it is going to explode. While these people represent no immediate threat to the Jews, these are skinheads in suits. As night follows day, they will come for the Jews. The only thing that remotely contains their hatred is the realization that Israel will not hesitate to act against them.

re: #348 JHW

A bunch of Musolinis, Quislings and Petains, all in one room together. This is a dangerous new development.

404 Sharmuta  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 7:55:12am

re: #403 ayatollah ghilmeini

While it is hypothetically possibly Robert Spencer is playing me, anyone who read his messages to me would see the truth in his words by their very vehemence.

Right- so instead of renouncing these nazis, he attacks Charles and posted comments from the nazis in question to whitewash them.

405 Sharmuta  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 7:58:15am

He posts nazi apologia and smears Charles instead.

This should really tell you all you need to know.

406 Athos  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 8:17:25am

re: #403 ayatollah ghilmeini

I think everyone knows me well enough to know that I take second to no one in my contempt and hatred for fascists and neo-nazis. While it is hypothetically possibly Robert Spencer is playing me, anyone who read his messages to me would see the truth in his words by their very vehemence.

My daughter, when caught in a lie, developed the habit of getting angry and yelling about her innocence. At first, we focused on just calming her down and the issue ended up being deflected by the show of anger to addressing the anger and ultimately ignoring the root cause, the initial lie. Talking about this with the parents of her friends, we noticed that this was becoming a pattern with the kids - the lie would be forgotten and the focus on addressing the anger. It was a good deal for the kids - using anger to deflect attention and probably punishment.....until we caught on to the behavior. Now we address the anger - but still hold them accountable and responsible for the lie.

Robert, very clearly, and multiple times says that his goal is to attack jihadism and he will ally with any other organization that shares the same goal. He has no care or interest in the other positions of the organization that is fighting jihadism because he is a one issue guy.

The position of Charles, myself, and others on LGF is that is a morally and intellectually indefensible position on a number of fronts. The cause to oppose islamofascism is weakened and negated by embracing and allying with eurofascists who embrace white nationalism / supremicism. These are inconsequentional fringe groups who are modifying their core message in order to attract useful idiots to provide them with political cover / propaganda opportunities to mask their odious viewpoints and gain more attention. These fringe groups will not tip the balance in the fight one bit, and the recognition that they are given provide a moral and ethical boost to our enemies. Embracing one form of fascism to fight another does not solve the problem.

As opposed to attacking those who highlight the fact that they want to fight standing inside a cesspool, these people should think about their reputations, who they are associating themselves with, and thank us for saving them from being motivated solely by their fear. If they remained less shrill and more mainstream, they would be far more effective. Now they are nearly as irrelevant as their fascist allies.

407 Athos  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 8:20:45am

re: #403 ayatollah ghilmeini

I referenced the story of my daughter and her friends to highlight that to me, Robert and Pamela are engaging in the same behavior. As opposed to addressing their associations with these euro-fascists, they get angry at the light being shone on them and lash back. They defend themselves by saying these groups aren't that bad and that they are all fighting the same enemy. It's deflection and equivocation. If they cannot have the moral standing to oppose these groups, how valid is their moral outrage over jihadism?

408 Irish Rose  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 8:27:32am

Robert Spencer has gone completely off his rocker.

As far as I'm concerned, his mask has completely slipped off to reveal the real person that he is... a fraudulent, ugly, petty, abusive, morally and socially retarded little man who dances around the truth to sell books, hides behind his blinkered readership to avoid accountability, and morphs into a schoolyard bully whenever his public "image" - what's left of it, anyway - is challenged by someone who refuses to buy into what he's selling.

I continue to be extremely grateful to Charles Johnson for both his personal integrity, and his willingness to publicly challenge and expose the people like Pam and Robert for what they are.

As far as I'm concerned, any person here at LGF who enjoys posting privileges, knows what is going on and see it for what it is, but refuses to speak up on Charles' behalf - after the way that Charles has been trashed, slandered and libeled - should hang his or her head in shame.

409 Irish Rose  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 8:30:07am

sre: #406 Athos

Outstanding post, a thousand updings.

410 Sharmuta  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 8:43:28am

re: #403 ayatollah ghilmeini

robert tells us Manfred Rouhs is not a neo-nazi.

Here's some research on mr rouhs.

When it comes to mr spencer and his associates, I would say "verify, but don't trust."

411 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:09:16am

re: #357 Ontheleftcoast

My point exactly. If it can be corroborated by a less tendentious source, do so and cite that source.

Charles cited der Spiegel, Germany's leading news magazine on Beisicht's past in Die Republikaner. Here's a federal German report mentioning, amongst other things, that very party: [Link: www.extremismus.com...]

A long quote from that report:

Some texts of the party „Die Republikaner“ (The Republicans) are an example of how traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes are combined with „secondary“ anti-Semitism. Besides, they show the levels of anti-Semitic discourse: insinuative, codified, overt, manifest.

The anti-Semite who believes to be in possession of a somehow secret knowledge about an international Jewish conspiracy uses them all to confirm his construct, even if he, after all, appreciates when there is „plain“ talk, as in the last example, when the „culprits“ are named and when the „offender against the taboo“ is not willing „to crawl“:

A press release reads as follows: Whoever wants to reduce „Germany
to Auschwitz“, is preparing the way for a new anti-Semitism. (This is a
very poor argument, it is true, because it would be difficult to find somebody
really willing to initiate it, but for anti-Semites it is sufficient as a starting
point for a delusive threat to positive German identity.) In another text, the
party’s chairman SCHLIERER, seeking those „responsible“ - not cited in
the press release – insinuatively confirms the typical anti-Semitic prejudice
(revengefulness, the Jews have to blame themselves): „Despite their obvious repentance and their efforts to make up for the wrong „ the Germans „will not be forgiven to all eternity“: Whoever exaggerates in such a way, „intently“ provokes anti-Semitic reactions. Others within the party even go beyond such allusions: In a document of principle they overtly use anti-Semitic arguments and add another anti-Jewish stereotype (greed for money): As „German patriots“ they reserve the right to „oppose Jewish defamation and Jewish patronage. An end must be put to the Jews indoctrinating the Germans with feelings of guilt in order to exploit them financially.“

Finally, in another text, the „culprits“ are directly named, and in an antithetical comparison of „German“ and „Jewish“ characteristics, the National Socialist incriminated anti-Semitic stereotype of „productive“ and „consumptive“ capital is used, too. It reads as follows: „Bubis and his associates“ are multi-millionaires: „It is a matter of fact that they have not earned the money by the work of their hands and by being honest. They
have acquired their riches only by fraud and falsehood and by exploiting mankind. Our grandchildren will have to ‘bleed’ for it for ever, though they had nothing to do with the Nazis’ dictatorship and World War II.“

412 [deleted]  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:25:43am
413 Sharmuta  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:27:13am

re: #412 fgmorley

Then maybe you'd like to know that it was pamela that started attacking first, not the other way around. You should get your facts straight.

414 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:30:02am

re: #412 fgmorley

Bye now! Take care, and enjoy your lovely friends.

415 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 8:42:48am
416 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 10:00:00am

re: #415 islamofascism

Bye now! Take care, and have fun with the Nazis.


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