Classic Misdirection from Spencer and Geller

WorldApril 2009 • Views: 11,758

This morning we have another case of classic misdirection from the Eurofascist-supporting twins, Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller; they’ve both posted long ad hominem screeds attacking me for “falling for fauxtography.”

Apparently, one of the photos I used to illustrate my post yesterday about the neo-facscist and outright neo-Nazi connections of the “pro Koln” conference in Germany was altered:

This photograph:

Which I discovered, ironically, at a pro-fascist website through Google Images: Translated version of Markus Beisicht (per NRW): “Islamization fight!”

Spencer and Geller have turned up another version of the photo (without saying where they got it):

Which one is the real photo and which is the altered one? It’s not obvious from examining the pictures, but clearly, one of them was altered.

But it’s a meaningless distinction. The point of posting the photograph was not to show Filip DeWinter of the Vlaams Belang and Markus Beisicht of Pro Koln in front of a demonstration — it was very obviously to show that they are associates.

The photograph Spencer and Geller have posted merely confirms that fact. And it’s very easy to find more photographs of DeWinter and Beisicht together — at the Pro Koln website itself.

Both of them are screaming about the “fauxtography,” to divert your attention from the fascist connections of these people — which, you may notice, they don’t dispute.

Pamela Geller has always been into these dishonest techniques, so there’s nothing more to say about her; but it’s sad, and utterly pathetic, to see Robert Spencer resorting to such sleaze.

(They both seem to think I would simply make the picture vanish and deny it was altered; actually, no, that’s not how I work. But it’s telling that they project their own techniques onto me.)

Spencer has also denied that he confirmed he would attend the Pro Koln meeting; if that’s true, he should take it up with the organizer (whose picture you see above, shaking hands with Filip DeWinter), who announced yesterday that he had confirmed: Translated version of “Robert Spencer on 9 May in Cologne”.

As of today, there is no correction at the Pro Koln website.

UPDATE at 4/25/09 9:43:59 am:

LGF reader “gegenkritik” has more information on the now-hidden anti-Israel history of Pro Koln.

Something more about pro Köln: their “pro-Israel”-stance is relatively new, it’s mainly PI-news-founder Stefan Herre, who appears at their demonstrations with israeli-flags. He was also the one to interview former CDU deputy mayor of district Cologne-Ehrenfeld (where the mosque will be built), Jörg Uckermann, who is now one of the leading figures of pro-Köln, and it was Herre who convinced him to to take a “pro-Israel”-stance.

Some years ago, pro-Köln was openly hostile towards Israel: here’s a leaflet (Google translated) that was handed out by pro-Köln’s student-organization, entitled “Solidarity with Palestine!”. You’ll find the typical anti-zionism in it: Israel is waging war against the Palestinians, Ariel Sharon is seeking for cruel vengeance, the German Goverment should not deliver weapons but put pressure on Israel.

Two years ago, pro-Köln defended the stance of the German Bishops, who compared the situation of the Palestinians with the Jews in the Warsaw-Ghetto (Here is a LGF-post about this).

To be fair, all this is still not a real Nazi-position, and it is the common stance of 90% of Germans. But there is more: their agitation against the planned Jewish museum in Cologne. The background: after the destruction of most Jewish buildings in Cologne in the Nazi-era, a private foundation was fundraising for a museum about the Jewish history in Cologne. The foundation got the building permission, but suddenly, nearly all media as well as the city council were against the museum.

The only newspapers that were still in favor of the planned museum, were those of the Axel Springer AG, who are often attacked by leftists, muslims and Neonazis alike because of their Corporate principles (“To promote reconciliation of Jews and Germans and support the vital rights of the State of Israel”). Neonazis and other Anti-semites often take this point to lament about the “jewish controlled media” (“Verjudete Presse” was the original slogan in the Nazi-era) and it’s very clear that pro-Köln is referring to this.

All this shows, that pro-Köln’s pro-Israel-attitude is essentially a fake.

Jump to bottom

391 comments

rightside Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:31:20am

In my opinion the lower photo is the original. It appears they were inserted into the top photo, as evidenced by the lighting on them not matching the background.

my 2 cents.

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:32:31am

re: #1 rightside

In my opinion the lower photo is the original. It appears they were inserted into the top photo, as evidenced by the lighting on them not matching the background.

my 2 cents.

Maybe, but it doesn't matter.

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:32:43am

I'm disgusted that mr spencer would post comments from these shady people in an attempt to whitewash them and their neo-nazi pasts.

rightside Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:33:28am

re: #2 Charles

True, but you did ask. :^)

pingjockey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:33:41am

Charles got the photo, he didn't photoshaop it. However, that is what those asshats want their attack pissants to believe.

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:33:42am

I hate photo-shopping.

Truck Monkey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:34:07am

Doesn't matter does it? Kind of a distinction without a difference. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:34:07am

Good for you Charles.

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:34:34am

Wow, that's a level 2 PWND!

The fauxtography was created by their associates. S and G should be complaining to those sources, not attacking LGF. But that would reasonable and logical.

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:35:10am

Pics of Dewinter and Beisicht together are not difficult to find. Google images: Beisicht Dewinter.

They are pals. There's no disputing that.

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:35:48am

pro-koln was born out of the NPD

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:35:52am

re: #9 BigPapa

Wow, that's a level 2 PWND!

The fauxtography was created by their associates. S and G should be complaining to those sources, not attacking LGF. But that would reasonable and logical.

We have NO facts as to who created the photoshop. That's inaccurate.

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:35:53am

The demonstration in the background seems to be an AFA demonstration, that is a demonstration by a radical left-wing group. It's the AFA symbol in the bottom left corner of that banner.

That said, both pictures might be photoshopped.

Cato the Elder Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:36:17am

I think the first photo is the fake one. Why would these two pause to shake hands and grin for the camera in front of a moving demo.

Also, the background in the first pic seems to show an overcast day, with no distinct shadows in the background, while the second looks more likely to produce the shadows on the jacket to the right.

But as you said, that's not the point.

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:36:33am

re: #9 BigPapa

I was surprised that it appears the altered version came from a pro-nazi site. I assumed the Antifa creeps photoshopped themselves in.

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:36:47am

Not having been online yesterday, I'm still reading the comments on the Spencer/Neo-Nazi conference thread.

Gotta say I'm proud to be in your company, Lizards!

And I'm extremely grateful for Charles to point these connections out.
Its chilling to see how those neofascists use a once valid attitude, that of being anti-jihad, to peddle their filth, dressed up in a nice new shiny cloth.

Seeing the debate about this photo on the thread below, I agree with whoever said they were sure that you would pick this up, Charles.
Indeed - its not about using an altered photo (one not altered by you, Charles, lets not forget that!), its about the conenction between those two men.

Oh - and on another photo on the related trhed you can see the banner saying 'Europa erwache'.
How anybody can even think that these people are not nazis in new clothes is just beyond me!
After all, 'Deutschland erwache' was one prominet nazi slogan.

pingjockey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:37:11am

The point is, some time, some where, these two are quite the couple.

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:37:15am

re: #12 Walter L. Newton

We have NO facts as to who created the photoshop. That's inaccurate.

Uh... OK. We don't know who created it, but we know where it came from. Is it relevant at this point?

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:37:20am

The picture posted at JW seems to come from Pro-Koelns web site, where it is available in higher resolution.

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:37:51am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I think the first photo is the fake one. Why would these two pause to shake hands and grin for the camera in front of a moving demo.

Agreed. Also, these demonstrations can be pretty violent when the Nazis and Antifa clash. I doubt they'd be alone in front of that crowd.

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:38:05am

If you want to learn more about pro Köln's anti-zionist past, read my comment here.

pingjockey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:38:37am

re: #20 Killgore Trout
IIRC, commies and nazis DO NOT get along! Heh.

wee fury Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:38:53am

I read the headline as: "Classic Midsection from Spencer and Geller" -- am so glad I read wrong and this is not a tummy report.

realwest Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:38:56am

Great thread Charles - and you are right - there may be a difference with the photos, but it's one without a distinction - EITHER PHOTO proves what you said.
PERIOD.

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:38:58am

What's a Koln?

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:39:46am

Citizens' movement per Cologne (Pro-Koln)

The association was launched on 5 June 1996 in Cologne-Dünnwald as an offshoot of the German League for People and Homeland (DLVH) by former members of the Republican Party was founded. Among the founding members include the publisher Manfred Rouhs and Attorney Markus Beisicht. Together with other former members of REP, including Harald Neubauer and Karl Richter, were Rouhs and Beisicht already in the founding of the DLVH been involved in the 1991 to 1993 in the Group's strength in the Cologne city council was represented

I would think "German League for People and Homeland" would be enough of a give away as to what sort of political party DLVH is, but just in case:

The DLVH was founded in 1991 as a party. Prominent was a founding member of the former NPD federal chairman Martin Mussgnug.

These nazis may move about from group to group, but does anyone honestly think they've changed their philosophies?

jcm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:39:46am

re: #1 rightside

In my opinion the lower photo is the original. It appears they were inserted into the top photo, as evidenced by the lighting on them not matching the background.

my 2 cents.

The guy on the left in the top photo his right shoulder is missing a piece.
The top one appears to be the PShop.

Charles is right, the two are shaking hands in both pics.

debutaunt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:39:59am

re: #1 rightside

In my opinion the lower photo is the original. It appears they were inserted into the top photo, as evidenced by the lighting on them not matching the background.

my 2 cents.

There were trying to create an issue that isn't even slightly relevant.

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:40:26am

re: #15 Killgore Trout

I was surprised that it appears the altered version came from a pro-nazi site. I assumed the Antifa creeps photoshopped themselves in.

They have, I am quite sure that it was originally altered by some leftists at indymedia Germany, and PafoSued (the Nazi-website, from which Charles took the image), just took it from there.

pingjockey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:40:58am

re: #26 Sharmuta
Nazis don't change their swastikas.

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:41:32am

re: #21 gegenkritik

If you want to learn more about pro Köln's anti-zionist past, read my comment here.

Thank you very much for reposting that.

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:41:41am

re: #21 gegenkritik

If you want to learn more about pro Köln's anti-zionist past, read my comment here.

Very informative.

Simply Me Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:41:51am

Just wanted to say that I am becoming convinced that there is a problem with Robert Spencer and Jihad Watch. I followed a thread there about Muslim women in the Netherlands wanting to have beds in rooms without any men. That seemed like a reasonable request, so I wasn't even sure why it was a post. But there were many comments that just took the post as another opportunity to make ugly comments about Muslims.

So, I am starting to see that Jihad Watch is promoting and hosting something bad. But I am still very concerned about radical Islam, the deterioration of Pakistan, oppression of women in Islam, etc.

Truck Monkey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:41:57am

re: #25 MandyManners

What's a Koln?

It is an internal "chute" that prepares solid waste to be expelled from the human body. Come to think of it. I am due for a Kolnoscopy.

Jetpilot1101 Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:42:06am

It is obvious that Pam and Robert have totally sold themselves out to a bunch of neo-Nazis. Nothing less then a complete disassociation from these groups by both of them will earn their credibility back and even then, it will be tough. Thanks for continuing to point out these issues Charles, people are listening.

pingjockey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:42:18am

BBL! Keep a sharp eye and a handy clue bat.

DEZes Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:42:31am

re: #25 MandyManners

What's a Koln?

The Wrath of Koln?
hello all.

debutaunt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:42:49am

re: #24 realwest

Great thread Charles - and you are right - there may be a difference with the photos, but it's one without a distinction - EITHER PHOTO proves what you said.
PERIOD.

No claim of the two charming characters being photoshopped into a handshake.

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:43:09am

The photoshop is the big distraction, as mr spencer goes onto claim Manfred Rouhs is not a neo-nazi. How does mr spencer know this? Why- manfred told him so! That should be good enough, right?

Manfred Rouhs

laZardo Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:43:23am

re: #13 oslogin

I see what they did there.

Still doesn't change the fact that there are two fascist douchebags shaking hands in the foreground.

realwest Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:43:31am

This is what matters - in Charles' own words:
"Both of them are screaming about the “fauxtography,” to divert your attention from the fascist connections of these people — which, you may notice, they don’t dispute."

debutaunt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:43:53am

re: #28 debutaunt

There were trying to create an issue that isn't even slightly relevant.

PIMP They

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:44:29am

re: #29 gegenkritik

They have, I am quite sure that it was originally altered by some leftists at indymedia Germany, and PafoSued (the Nazi-website, from which Charles took the image), just took it from there.

We have NO PROOF who originally altered the photo. You say "quite sure." Where is your proof.

I am totally 100 percent behind these connections that Charles (and others) have pointed out, including my own small contribution to this (Lizards know what I am talking about), but we should not jump on this photo and make unfounded comments about it.

It only makes us look or sound like the other nuts.

I'm sorry, it bothers me, let's try to use our critical thinking skills here.

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:44:29am

re: #26 Sharmuta

These nazis may move about from group to group, but does anyone honestly think they've changed their philosophies?

Agreed. It's also meaningless that these groups all hate each other. As we saw in the BNP rally that Crazy Pam posted last week, that the BNP and the FN hate each other even though they're both Eurofascists. They compete for membership so there can be trouble if the FN nazis show up to recruit at a BNP rally.

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:44:44am

(They both seem to think I would simply make the picture vanish and deny it was altered; actually, no, that’s not how I work. But it’s telling that they project their own techniques onto me.)

It's funny because it's true.

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:44:50am

re: #40 laZardo

Still doesn't change the fact that there are two fascist douchebags shaking hands in the foreground.

Most decidedly not.

jwb7605 Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:45:47am

re: #25 MandyManners

What's a Koln?

It's like a Kiln, except the bricks are turned around backwards. Instead of being like an oven, that makes them like refrigerators.

jcm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:45:50am

re: #37 DEZes

The Wrath of Koln?
hello all.

It's what you should have examined after the age of 45...........
Pam & Robert have had a kolnoscopy and a cancer has been found.

itellu3times Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:46:17am

And maybe neither is original, who knows if they shook hands in front of a green screen, or in a men's room.

debutaunt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:46:18am

re: #47 jwb7605

hahahahhahaaa

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:46:37am

re: #25 MandyManners

What's a Koln?

K&umlo;n is a city is Germany. usually seen in English as Cologne.

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:46:49am

It seems to me that it does matter that the photograph that Charles originally ran was photoshopped, because it suggests that the web site from where Charles got the photograph has an agenda to distort the truth. This suggests that at least some of the web sites Charles is going to get his information about the situation on the ground is biased and perhaps factually incorrect.

(Note I'm not saying Charles wants to distort the truth; only that at least some of his sources of information are clearly--with this photograph as an example--distorting the truth.)

psyop Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:47:08am

The most important thing for the large mass of people that identify themselves as conservative (myself among them) to do is:

NOT let the loony fringe racist a-holes overtake and corrupt a sound political philosophy (conservatism) that has nothing to do with associated with loony fringe racist a-holes.

To that end, thanks are in order to Charles for standing firm, and allowing all of us to express ourselves from his platform.

Nevergiveup Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:47:27am

Maybe it's an Arizona thing... [Mark Steyn]
Okay, in a spirit of bipartisanship:

Just days after Janet Napolitano, the U.S. homeland security secretary, sparked a diplomatic kerfuffle by suggesting the terrorists took a Canadian route to the U.S. eight years ago, McCain defended her by saying that, in fact, the former Arizona governor was correct.

"Well, some of the 9-11 hijackers did come through Canada, as you know," McCain, last year's Republican presidential candidate, said on Fox News on Friday.

In its way, this is worse than Secretary Napolitano. The war on terror is supposed to be McCain's area of expertise.

[Link: corner.nationalreview.com...]

And people wonder why we lost?

BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:47:54am

Why are they calling themselves Pro-Cologne? Nazis stink!

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:03am

re: #51 OldLineTexan

Wow, did I hose that up thoroughly! Köln

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:15am

re: #33 Simply Me

So, I am starting to see that Jihad Watch is promoting and hosting something bad. But I am still very concerned about radical Islam, the deterioration of Pakistan, oppression of women in Islam, etc.

It's a fine line. Pretty much all of us on LGF are still very much concerned with the dangers of radical Islam. However, many counter-Jihad blogs are taking a pretty spooky direction. many are quite open about their racism and radical solutions, others are more subtle about it. It's hard to tell sometimes.

DEZes Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:19am

re: #48 jcm

It's what you should have examined after the age of 45...........
Pam & Robert have had a kolnoscopy and a cancer has been found.

The attending physician has my sympathy.

psyop Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:35am

re: #53 psyop

NOT let the loony fringe racist a-holes overtake and corrupt a sound political philosophy (conservatism) that has nothing to do with associated with loony fringe racist a-holes.

That should have read "...nothing to do with associating with....."

realwest Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:43am

re: #48 jcm
"Pam & Robert have each had a kolnoscopy and a cancers haves been found.
There, FTFY!

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:44am

re: #52 William Woody

It seems to me that it does matter that the photograph that Charles originally ran was photoshopped, because it suggests that the web site from where Charles got the photograph has an agenda to distort the truth. This suggests that at least some of the web sites Charles is going to get his information about the situation on the ground is biased and perhaps factually incorrect.

(Note I'm not saying Charles wants to distort the truth; only that at least some of his sources of information are clearly--with this photograph as an example--distorting the truth.)

And it is also evident that when there is a problem, when a mistake is made, it is evident that Charles owns up to it and points it out.

So, how are YOU so sure that everything you read on the internet is beyond a shadow of a doubt, factual?

Answer please?

marsl Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:57am

Two euro-nazis shaking hands... and what is the motive of discussion? The background.

The background is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that some american bloggers are "in love" with euro-nazis.

Charles is right. Spencer cannot attend those racist meetings without being called a fascist.

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:48:59am

re: #55 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Why are they calling themselves Pro-Cologne? Nazis stink!

It's cheap nasty toilet water that they're using.

wiffersnapper Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:49:22am

Photo shopping always fools me :/

BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:49:35am

re: #54 Nevergiveup

Oy to the vey.

jcm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:49:38am

re: #60 realwest

"Pam & Robert have each had a kolnoscopy and a cancers haves been found.
There, FTFY!

Thank you!

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:49:59am

re: #52 William Woody

(Note I'm not saying Charles wants to distort the truth; only that at least some of his sources of information are clearly--with this photograph as an example--distorting the truth.)

No, it shows that one pro-fascist website connected to the Pro Koln group used an altered photo -- but the alteration does absolutely nothing to change the larger point.

The other sources in my post include Spiegel, one of Germany's largest newspapers, and the Guardian.

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:50:11am

re: #52 William Woody

Sure, it does matter. Very very very little.

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:50:16am

Pam and Robert are just trying to deflect flames. That said, it's a bit depressing that we all didn't catch this fauxtography ourselves. We need to look critically at all sources of information. Lizards, sharper eyes are demanded, don't be afraid to correct Charles - I have a few times, and when he's wrong he corrects it with an update, it's the only way to honestly blog. Those cases where he is wrong on any point are incredibly few for the number of posts he has put out over the years.

Now as to Robert and Pam, the photo of the handshake might have been 'shopped for background, but that doesn't mean that the factual handshake didn't take place - it had to for the photo to exist in any form - Charles main point stands undiminished at all.

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:50:29am

Yes, there is a bit missing from the shoulder on the guy on the right, making that the altered photo, but it's completely beside the point.

This doesn't help these buffoons one bit.

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:50:32am

re: #52 William Woody

Oh, go piss up a rope.

slartybartfast Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:50:58am

While I recognize Charles' point--the real point!--I'd still like to suggest that the bottom photo is the fake. Notice the ear of the man on the left...it looks pointed because a piece of the protest banner was accidentally captured during the copy & paste!

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:51:03am

re: #44 Killgore Trout

Agreed. It's also meaningless that these groups all hate each other. As we saw in the BNP rally that Crazy Pam posted last week, that the BNP and the FN hate each other even though they're both Eurofascists. They compete for membership so there can be trouble if the FN nazis show up to recruit at a BNP rally.

That would be the NF (English), not the FN (French)?

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:51:06am

re: #52 William Woody

The truth distorters here are the nazis and their friends like robert spencer. Never mind the neo-nazi roots of the pro-koln founders and leaders. Charles Johnson used a photoshop! Talk about a fucking distortion. Helloooooo?

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:51:38am

re: #72 slartybartfast

While I recognize Charles' point--the real point!--I'd still like to suggest that the bottom photo is the fake. Notice the ear of the man on the left...it looks pointed because a piece of the protest banner was accidentally captured during the copy & paste!

OR, he's a Nazi Vulcan ...

itellu3times Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:52:12am

re: #54 Nevergiveup

In its way, this is worse than Secretary Napolitano. The war on terror is supposed to be McCain's area of expertise.

Huh? He's a senator. Getting votes is supposed to be his area of expertise.

He is supposed, perhaps, to have the right attitudes about the war, but that doesn't guarantee any facts.

BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:52:40am

re: #75 OldLineTexan

OR, he's a Nazi Vulcan ...

You mean a Romulan.

psyop Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:53:21am

re: #77 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Oooh...well done.

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:53:22am

re: #52 William Woody

We found out about Iran supplying IED's from a terror organization, MEK. They have an agenda too, but that doesn't change the fact that Iran is supplying EFP technology and advanced mortars to our foes in Iraq.

Can you get a grip for just a moment and see that source doesn't matter when something is absolutely and empirically factual? You sound like a leftist trying to deconstruct and rewrite history when you whine like this.

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:53:23am

re: #77 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

You mean a Romulan.

That's RoNulan.

HTH.

jcm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:53:27am

re: #70 Jimmah

Yes, there is a bit missing from the shoulder on the guy on the right, making that the altered photo, but it's completely beside the point.

This doesn't help these buffoons one bit.

Nope. Not a bit.

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:53:30am

re: #75 OldLineTexan

OR, he's a Nazi Vulcan ...

Can't ba a Vulcan 'cause they operate on logic.

realwest Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:53:42am

re: #72 slartybartfast

While I recognize Charles' point--the real point!--I'd still like to suggest that the bottom photo is the fake. Notice the ear of the man on the left...it looks pointed because a piece of the protest banner was accidentally captured during the copy & paste!

With all due respect, WHO GIVES A SHIT? It still shows the two of them shaking hands! That's ALL that matters!

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:54:22am

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

We have NO PROOF who originally altered the photo. You say "quite sure." Where is your proof.

I am totally 100 percent behind these connections that Charles (and others) have pointed out, including my own small contribution to this (Lizards know what I am talking about), but we should not jump on this photo and make unfounded comments about it.

It only makes us look or sound like the other nuts.

I'm sorry, it bothers me, let's try to use our critical thinking skills here.

I could go to through indymedia-Germany, but the point is: it does not matter, if PafoSued or Indymedia altered the image, since it's very clear that it was not Charles and that the critic does not aim at the "background" but at the two fascists shaking hands.
Why should someone, who wants to show this shakehands of two fascists he is critizising, change the background with Antifas, and not with Nazis? Spencer's argumentation is completely non-sense.

I tried to explain that also at JihadWatch, but the commentators there are immune to logic.

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:54:24am

re: #73 oslogin

That would be the NF (English), not the FN (French)?

Yes, nice catch. It's tough for us Americans to remember all the obscure European political parties.

laZardo Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:54:36am

Headin to bed now. 12:54 AM and sunburn's starting to act up. Nighty!

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:54:56am

re: #82 MandyManners

Can't ba a Vulcan 'cause they operate on logic.

It would be RACIST of me to assume that all members of even a fictional race were somehow the same!

There have to be nutburger and/or evil Vulcans.

opinionated Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:55:21am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I think the first photo is the fake one. Why would these two pause to shake hands and grin for the camera in front of a moving demo.

Also, the background in the first pic seems to show an overcast day, with no distinct shadows in the background, while the second looks more likely to produce the shadows on the jacket to the right.

But as you said, that's not the point.

I was going to write the exact same and agree with you.

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:55:22am

re: #83 realwest

With all due respect, WHO GIVES A SHIT? It still shows the two of them shaking hands! That's ALL that matters!

What does give a shit is the point that we need to be factual, or correct ourselves, as Charles did here.

Come on, I believe you are a lawyer. Do you think a court would give a shit if you brought that photo in for some sort of evidence?

Be real... (a little pun).

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:55:33am

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Yes, nice catch. It's tough for us Americans to remember all the obscure European political parties.

Hey, the difference between Nazi F&ckers and F&cking Nazis is very slight.

slartybartfast Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:56:00am

re: #83 realwest

With all due respect, WHO GIVES A SHIT? It still shows the two of them shaking hands! That's ALL that matters!

I agree, "That's ALL that matters!" However, our fellow lizard Thanos points out, "That said, it's a bit depressing that we all didn't catch this fauxtography ourselves."

Don't be depressed, friend. Maybe we didn't miss anything (this time).

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:56:07am

re: #90 OldLineTexan

Heh.

Simply Me Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:56:24am

I have been up dinging the comments that point out how to recognize the photoshopping. I do understand that the main point of this thread is that the handshake is real and the background doesn't matter. But I also appreciate this thread as a case study in how to pick out the evidence of photoshopping.

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:56:31am

“gegenkritik” also took some abuse at jihadwatch for pointing out pro-koln's less than favorable opinions of Israel in the past.

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:56:51am

re: #84 gegenkritik

I could go to through indymedia-Germany, but the point is: it does not matter, if PafoSued or Indymedia altered the image, since it's very clear that it was not Charles and that the critic does not aim at the "background" but at the two fascists shaking hands.
Why should someone, who wants to show this shakehands of two fascists he is critizising, change the background with Antifas, and not with Nazis? Spencer's argumentation is completely non-sense.

I tried to explain that also at JihadWatch, but the commentators there are immune to logic.

You went on for two paragraphs and you never answered my question. You said you are "quite sure" about who photoshopped the photo.

Answer please?

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:57:01am

re: #84 gegenkritik

Why should someone, who wants to show this shakehands of two fascists he is critizising, change the background with Antifas, and not with Nazis? Spencer's argumentation is completely non-sense.

Of course, I didn't alter any photograph.

Jimash Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:58:19am

"Which one is the real photo and which is the altered one? It’s not obvious from examining the pictures, but clearly, one of them was altered."

Charles I agree that it doesn't matter and that the association is what's at issue.
That said, I have examined the hairlines in the pictures.
#2 shows funny fringing around the hair, and suspisioiusly straight lines.
Also the background pixelates more than the men, unlike the rally pic.

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 9:59:59am

re: #52 William Woody

It seems to me that it does matter that the photograph that Charles originally ran was photoshopped, because it suggests that the web site from where Charles got the photograph has an agenda to distort the truth. This suggests that at least some of the web sites Charles is going to get his information about the situation on the ground is biased and perhaps factually incorrect.

(Note I'm not saying Charles wants to distort the truth; only that at least some of his sources of information are clearly--with this photograph as an example--distorting the truth.)

This image is just an example of standard propaganda - putting the figures in a more dynamic setting. The relevant point - the close association of these men, was not a result of manipulation.

It's a measure of how desperate Geller and Spencer are that they are screaming foul at this point. I havent looked yet but I'm betting that their stupid, easily led fans will be delighted over this 'scoop' as well.

captdiggs Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:00:26am

My 2 cents.
I hate watching this. Far too much energy is being devoted to attacks on various bloggers who have more in common (e. the danger of radical Islam, the poor approach of the new president, support for anti-islamist forces, support of democracy over totalitarianism, etc.), than they are dissimilar.
There are some very serious problems in this world and I would rather see the attention focused on those problems.

But that's just my opinion.

100

realwest Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:01:12am

re: #89 Walter L. Newton
OK, being "real" here, as a lawyer I'm telling you that if I brought that photo that Charles used into court to prove that the two men knew each other and shook hands, then NO it wouldn't matter. If I took it into court to show where or when the two men shook hands it might.

101

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:01:25am

re: #96 Charles

Of course, I didn't alter any photograph.

That you even have to say this just made my angry-o-meter shoot up again!

102

tom from pv Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:01:30am

I saw a photo of Obama shaking hands with Hugo Chavez with big grins on both faces. Does that show Obama and Chavez are associates?

Please, no flames that I'm a neo-Nazi, etc. Just pointing out that there are lots of photos showing lots of people shaking hands and its kind of pointless to use a single photo as proof of anything.

103

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:01:53am

re: #99 captdiggs

Align ourselves with fucking Nazis?! You're nuts.

104

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:02:15am

re: #99 captdiggs

My 2 cents.
I hate watching this. Far too much energy is being devoted to attacks on various bloggers who have more in common (e. the danger of radical Islam, the poor approach of the new president, support for anti-islamist forces, support of democracy over totalitarianism, etc.), than they are dissimilar.
There are some very serious problems in this world and I would rather see the attention focused on those problems.

But that's just my opinion.

Sorry, I don't have anything in common with anyone who associates themselves with Neo-Nazi's, fascists, white nationalist and so forth.

Obviously you do.

105

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:02:49am

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

I don't.

And honestly I find most of the discussion revolving around who is connected to whom on part with an ad hominem attack: we have stopped talking about the arguments and started attacking the people involved.

For myself, I discern what I agree with or don't agree with based on my own assumptions about how I believe the world works, and if I find the arguments and evidence compelling within that framework. Occasionally an argument is made which forces me to re-evaluate my own assumptions, which is a good thing. By viewing the world in this way, I care less about who provides the argument, and more about the argument itself.

For example, I believe in the scientific method, and I happen to believe in the individual over the collective. It's why I find arguments supporting evolution over creationism compelling. If the person making a pro-evolution argument then turns around and starts arguing for a socialist state, does that make the pro-evolution argument any less compelling?

106

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:02:50am

re: #97 Jimash

"Which one is the real photo and which is the altered one? It’s not obvious from examining the pictures, but clearly, one of them was altered."

Charles I agree that it doesn't matter and that the association is what's at issue.
That said, I have examined the hairlines in the pictures.
#2 shows funny fringing around the hair, and suspisioiusly straight lines.
Also the background pixelates more than the men, unlike the rally pic.

But the rally pic has a slight dent in Beisicht's cheek.

107

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:03:02am

re: #102 tom from pv

I saw a photo of Obama shaking hands with Hugo Chavez with big grins on both faces. Does that show Obama and Chavez are associates?

Please, no flames that I'm a neo-Nazi, etc. Just pointing out that there are lots of photos showing lots of people shaking hands and its kind of pointless to use a single photo as proof of anything.

Have you seen Kilgore's No. 10?

108

wrenchwench Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:03:15am

re: #102 tom from pv

I saw a photo of Obama shaking hands with Hugo Chavez with big grins on both faces. Does that show Obama and Chavez are associates?

Please, no flames that I'm a neo-Nazi, etc. Just pointing out that there are lots of photos showing lots of people shaking hands and its kind of pointless to use a single photo as proof of anything.

Are you saying that's the case here? If so, then you have not been paying attention.

109

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:03:17am

re: #95 Walter L. Newton
I said I am quite sure that I first saw this picture at Indymedia Germany (I regulary read there), but I am too lazy to search for it, because it simply does not matter if Indymedia or PafoSued altered the image, because Charles' point about two fascists shaking hands is not affected by some changing in the background.

If you want to search Indymedia for the image, here's their website:

[Link: de.indymedia.org...]

110

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:03:23am

re: #99 captdiggs

My 2 cents.
I hate watching this. Far too much energy is being devoted to attacks on various bloggers who have more in common (e. the danger of radical Islam, the poor approach of the new president, support for anti-islamist forces, support of democracy over totalitarianism, etc.), than they are dissimilar.
There are some very serious problems in this world and I would rather see the attention focused on those problems.

But that's just my opinion.

You don't want to run the risk of being identified as a Nazi, do you? Do you think the MSM in the US won't eventually run like hell with it? How dead do you want the "conservative" cause in the US?

Why would you want Nazi friends or friends that are Nazi sympathizers?

111

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:03:35am

re: #99 captdiggs

LGF's differences with JW and AS are too great to ignore. You cannot see the forest for the trees. Some alliances of JW and AS are with totalitarian leaning groups. This cannot be reconciled except for obfuscation.

112

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:03:36am

re: #99 captdiggs

Far too much energy is being devoted to attacks on various bloggers who have more in common (e. the danger of radical Islam, the poor approach of the new president, support for anti-islamist forces, support of democracy over totalitarianism, etc.), than they are dissimilar.

The Euro-fascist parties that they are providing visibility, recognition, and enable for stand for racism, nationalism, and tyranny. Fascists do not support democracy over totalitarianism. They are totalitarianism.

113

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:03:54am

re: #105 William Woody

I don't.

And honestly I find most of the discussion revolving around who is connected to whom on part with an ad hominem attack: we have stopped talking about the arguments and started attacking the people involved.

For myself, I discern what I agree with or don't agree with based on my own assumptions about how I believe the world works, and if I find the arguments and evidence compelling within that framework. Occasionally an argument is made which forces me to re-evaluate my own assumptions, which is a good thing. By viewing the world in this way, I care less about who provides the argument, and more about the argument itself.

For example, I believe in the scientific method, and I happen to believe in the individual over the collective. It's why I find arguments supporting evolution over creationism compelling. If the person making a pro-evolution argument then turns around and starts arguing for a socialist state, does that make the pro-evolution argument any less compelling?

(looks like I can just clip and paste my answers to these nationalist popping up here).

Sorry, I don't have anything in common with anyone who associates themselves with Neo-Nazi's, fascists, white nationalist and so forth.

Obviously you do.

114

slartybartfast Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:04:10am

re: #102 tom from pv

I saw a photo of Obama shaking hands with Hugo Chavez with big grins on both faces. Does that show Obama and Chavez are associates?

Please, no flames that I'm a neo-Nazi, etc. Just pointing out that there are lots of photos showing lots of people shaking hands and its kind of pointless to use a single photo as proof of anything.

Associates? No. But, a handshake does say, "I accept you, and by extension, your policies."

115

Jetpilot1101 Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:04:20am

re: #99 captdiggs

My 2 cents.
I hate watching this. Far too much energy is being devoted to attacks on various bloggers who have more in common (e. the danger of radical Islam, the poor approach of the new president, support for anti-islamist forces, support of democracy over totalitarianism, etc.), than they are dissimilar.
There are some very serious problems in this world and I would rather see the attention focused on those problems.

But that's just my opinion.

Sir, the means you propose to fight the Islamic Jihad do not justify the end result. To align oneself with questionable groups to achieve a common goal is absolutely the wrong way of stemming the tide of radical Islam. If you think the Nazi's will play nice when the goal has been achieved, you need to have your head examined.

116

Lincolntf Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:04:21am

Not for nothing, but I once nabbed a pickpocket in the Cologne Bahnhof. Female, about 18 yrs old, had her hand dug right into the purse of the lady in front of me in line. I did a double take and then grabbed the lady's purse (with the pickpocket's hand still in it) and the lady being robbed freaked out and almost beat the hell out of the girl. The Polizei hauled her off. Good times.

117

opinionated Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:04:43am

Both the Nazis and those anti Jihadist bloggers who support them have similar agendas. Just different targets.

The Nazis hate Jews but see the Muslims as a more immediate threat. The Jews can be targeted later.

The bloggers dislike Nazis but see the Muslims as a more immediate threat and figure the Nazis can be dealt with later.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is as old as civilization.

Also as old is that those alliances built on expediency frequently come back to bite.

118

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:05:23am

re: #112 Athos

The Euro-fascist parties that they are providing visibility, recognition, and enable for stand for racism, nationalism, and tyranny. Fascists do not support democracy over totalitarianism. They are totalitarianism.

And they'll turn on Jews and Israel in a flash.

119

Wild Knight Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:05:24am

The growing links between these "rightist" bloggers and European fascist groups is extremely worrying. For the heck of it, I decided to google the following terms:

Nazi Atrocities
Communist Atrocities
Jewish Atrocities
Israeli Atrocities

The results were the following:

Nazi Atrocities: 235,000 sites
Communist Atrocities: 781,000 sites
Jewish Atrocities: 1,210,000 sites
Israeli Atrocities: 2, 090,000 sites

That there is such a disparity between sites dedicated to the ghastly atrocities of the likes of Hitler and Stalin and those dedicated to the alleged atrocities carried out by Jews and Israelis indicates the extent of the passion and hatred for Jews and Israel. The tide of anti-semitism is rising to critical levels once again. That a Jew (Pamela Geller) and other Americans are allying themselves with these merchants of anti-semitism is a foul shame.

120

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:06:08am

re: #117 opinionated

Both the Nazis and those anti Jihadist bloggers who support them have similar agendas. Just different targets.

The Nazis hate Jews but see the Muslims as a more immediate threat. The Jews can be targeted later.

The bloggers dislike Nazis but see the Muslims as a more immediate threat and figure the Nazis can be dealt with later.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is as old as civilization.

Also as old is that those alliances built on expediency frequently come back to bite.

Yeah.

121

NukeAtomrod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:06:51am

Hi everyone. I blew up these pictures to 1600% in Photoshop and the edited photo is obvious. Here are the pictures:

Image: compare.jpg

Image: compare2.jpg

122

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:07:25am

re: #105 William Woody

...For example, I believe in the scientific method, and I happen to believe in the individual over the collective. It's why I find arguments supporting evolution over creationism compelling. If the person making a pro-evolution argument then turns around and starts arguing for a socialist state, does that make the pro-evolution argument any less compelling?

Er, yes. (I can't believe Woody even asks this, and I have to answer it). Because what's in a persons heart is as important to me as what is in his mind.

So, it was ok with you that Obama sat through those many sermons on black nationalism at Wright's church, since Obama claims to be a Christian?

Really...

123

realwest Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:07:28am

re: #112 Athos Or to put it another way "There is no room in LGF's foxhole for any fascists. Period."

124

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:07:37am

So - we have Spencer/Geller trying to divert attention from the main point by pointing out that the first photo was fauxtography, because the background was altered.

Yep, it was.

That doesn't mean the two people shaking hands are not neo-nazis.

There are a few pointers which ought to make anybody sit up, when looking at these organisations. For me, just the slogan 'Europa erwache' lets all alarm bells ring.

Loud screaming over a photo which is basically irrelevant to the main point of the accusation is childish game-play.

(But, yes, this fauxtography ought to have been found out earlier ...)

125

Nevergiveup Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:07:44am

re: #120 MandyManners

Yeah.

I think the proper phraseology is : Yeah, what he said!

126

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:08:00am

re: #105 William Woody

You're aware that the people involved decided to cast their lots in with nazis, and to avoid the criticisms of that decision, smeared Charles and LGF? That to defend against these attacks, it's relevant to the point to note the nazi associations of the people claiming to not be nazis or allied with them?

It's been demonstrated here and elsewhere exactly what the ideology of these euro parties are. But we're not the ones making excuses for hanging out with people who espouse such ideologies.

127

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:08:06am

re: #114 slartybartfast

How many pictures are there of Bush shaking hands with Achmadinejad, Chavez, Castro?

128

jcm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:08:08am

re: #99 captdiggs

And when do direct our attention there, which we frequently do. Our opponents will use the fringes to attack us. That's why we need to publicly distance our self from the Nazi's, the violent radicals, the kooks and nuts.

129

slartybartfast Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:09:17am

re: #127 BigPapa

How many pictures are there of Bush shaking hands with Achmadinejad, Chavez, Castro?

I don't know, but I would guess the number looks a lot like our President's last initial.

130

captdiggs Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:09:26am

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, I don't have anything in common with anyone who associates themselves with Neo-Nazi's, fascists, white nationalist and so forth.

Obviously you do.

You really don't know me.
I As I said, I just hate watching this, and I think too much time and energy is being devoted to destroying each other.
And just FYI I have been an ardent supporter of freedom and democracy, especially since I was in the USMC, assigned to Lebanon in 1983, where I saw first hand the butchery of radical political Islam.
Hence my focus on that.
If Charles and others wish to continue what they are doing, they are free to do so, obviously.

131

realwest Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:09:33am

Sorry y'all but I gotta go now. I hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

132

NukeAtomrod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:09:46am

re: #121 NukeAtomrod

I forgot to point out the photo with the flags is the original.

133

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:09:49am

re: #109 gegenkritik

I said I am quite sure that I first saw this picture at Indymedia Germany (I regulary read there), but I am too lazy to search for it, because it simply does not matter if Indymedia or PafoSued altered the image, because Charles' point about two fascists shaking hands is not affected by some changing in the background.

If you want to search Indymedia for the image, here's their website:

[Link: de.indymedia.org...]

No you said you were "quite sure..."

"They have, I am quite sure that it was originally altered by some leftists at indymedia Germany"

... that it was "altered."

That's your quote above.

I will ask you again, for the third time, how are you "quite sure" it was altered, by WHOEVER?

134

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:10:17am

re: #121 NukeAtomrod

Hi everyone. I blew up these pictures to 1600% in Photoshop and the edited photo is obvious. Here are the pictures:

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

No, that's not obvious at all. People always make this mistake. The pixellation you see is a very common artifact of JPEG compression, and does NOT prove anything about the pictures.

135

tom from pv Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:10:19am

re: #108 wrenchwench

Nope, I'm agreeing more with William Woody. I get the feeling that this thread is a lot more about responding to the blogger attack on the photo-shopping than real issues. Those bloggers attempted to "hoist Charles on his own petard", so to speak, because they spotted this photo-shopping.

Yes, it is a distraction. Yes, it seems to be working.

136

OldLineTexan Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:10:24am

I am against all Troofer Nirther Nazis who believe in returning to the gold standard in order to impose carbon cap & trade.

137

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:10:56am

re: #130 captdiggs

Do you need to see evidence of the butchery of nazi's in order to believe that they are also evil? Why embrace one form of evil to fight another - if you do, you are tainted forever by the evil you embrace.

138

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:11:12am

re: #117 opinionated

Both the Nazis and those anti Jihadist bloggers who support them have similar agendas. Just different targets.

The Nazis hate Jews but see the Muslims as a more immediate threat. The Jews can be targeted later.

The bloggers dislike Nazis but see the Muslims as a more immediate threat and figure the Nazis can be dealt with later.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend is as old as civilization.

Also as old is that those alliances built on expediency frequently come back to bite.

Lets not forget that history shows what happened to those who thought they could deal with the nazis later ...

139

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:11:12am

re: #130 captdiggs

...If Charles and others wish to continue what they are doing, they are free to do so, obviously.

Thank you SO MUCH for your permission. We all feel better now.

140

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:11:25am

To expand: it's more common to see pixellation in areas where there's a large difference in colors. That's why one of the images shows less pixellation. Doesn't prove anything.

141

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:11:27am

Every time Spencer and Geller take the low road to please their little circle of fans, they expose themselves more clearly to everyone else.

142

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:12:27am

re: #135 tom from pv

Nope, I'm agreeing more with William Woody. I get the feeling that this thread is a lot more about responding to the blogger attack on the photo-shopping than real issues. Those bloggers attempted to "hoist Charles on his own petard", so to speak, because they spotted this photo-shopping.

Yes, it is a distraction. Yes, it seems to be working.

Well, gee. Excuse me for defending myself against another ugly attack on my credibility.

143

Jimash Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:13:31am

re: #106 Sharmuta

"But the rally pic has a slight dent in Beisicht's cheek."

I don't see it that way. I see a shadow.
Magnify it a bit, Look at the straight line on his other ear.
And DeWynter's hair on the right ( our right) ferget it.

144

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:13:40am

re: #134 Charles

No, that's not obvious at all. People always make this mistake. The pixellation you see is a very common artifact of JPEG compression, and does NOT prove anything about the pictures.

Yes, jpeg often does this, especially with high-contrast 'edges' as in the example.

145

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:14:46am

re: #130 captdiggs

I As I said, I just hate watching this, and I think too much time and energy is being devoted to destroying each other.

All I know is what you write. This isn't some sandbox scuffle between kids over something insignificant. LGF is pointing out serious issues with these people; is that 'attacking them?'

If you really want to do something about it, you would take these assertions to AS and JW and plead with them to not align themselves with neoNazis and racists nationalists.

Otherwise, your post is just an equivocation.

146

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:15:07am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton
The fact that the background of the image is altered, is out of question.
You don't really assume that Beisicht and Dewinter are shaking hands when just some meters behind them there is a bunch of angry leftists and no police between them? No way.

147

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:15:17am

re: #99 captdiggs

And I would rather see honesty and truth than hysteria and hyperbole. Over time truth always wins, and hysteria and hyperbole detracts from efforts

148

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:16:13am

re: #8 Walter L. Newton

I made fun of you earlier.

Hi.

149

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:16:19am

Here's another photo of the two at the Pro-Koln site itself, is this "Belgian psyops?"

150

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:16:55am

re: #67 Charles

A friend of mine has a photograph of him shaking hands with George W. Bush. I don't think that photograph implies anything other than President Bush made himself available for a handshake line. A photograph may be worth a thousand words, but it doesn't mean those thousand words are true.

The other sources in my post include Spiegel, one of Germany's largest newspapers, and the Guardian.

And how often do we rail against bias in the major media on this site? :-)

Truthfully I find some of the arguments you've been making about European political connections to racist beliefs fairly compelling, though I also suspect that accusations of racist beliefs is also part of the fabric of European political smear campaigns, so I'm not convinced it really is as it seems. The photograph, on the other hand, is useless, outside of showing the fact that the source of that photograph clearly has an agenda and is more interested in promulgating that agenda than in reporting the truth.

On the other hand, I'm quite convinced that at least some element of European politics is intimately tied in with a fairly repugnant racist element. I'm convinced of that because I read an essay on Brussels Journal which explicitly argued against a (traditional) liberal democratic tradition (such as the one we enjoy in the United States) because it placed individual liberty above cultural (and racial) conformity.

Ewwww.

The guilt by association thing, however, leaves me quite cold and strikes me as an ad hominem attack: it's attacking the person rather than the arguments.

151

tom from pv Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:17:07am

re: #114 slartybartfast

Associates? No. But, a handshake does say, "I accept you, and by extension, your policies."

So when I see Obama with his thumb-shake and giant grin with Hugo Chavez, I should assume he accepts his policies?

Hmmm, I'm not sure I ever saw Bush thumb-shaking Chavez.

Anyways, this was a distraction that seems to be working.

152

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:17:38am

re: #142 Charles

Credibility Matters. Tell that to JW and AS.

Capt Diggs,

I suggest you make the same case to JW and AS. Why are they wasting all their efforts attacking LGF?

153

NukeAtomrod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:17:56am

re: #134 Charles

No, that's not obvious at all. People always make this mistake. The pixellation you see is a very common artifact of JPEG compression, and does NOT prove anything about the pictures.

My experience with using Photoshop makes this obvious to me. You are quite correct that jpeg compression causes such artifacts, but if you look closely you can see a sharp right angle on that area of pixelation. This is a very good indicator of a cut-and-paste.

154

cagney Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:17:59am

Apologies for going off-topic.

Anybody who considers themselves British and is proud of their history will know that the word Gurkha means. Please browse online about the contributions that the Gurkha's have provided to Britain.

If you feel that the British Government has treated them unfairly then please follow the link and sign the petition.

[Link: www.gurkhajustice.org.uk...]

155

Spiritualized Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:18:08am

File this under: 'I assumed it was The Onion when I saw the headline':

Is Obama the super-president?

a) Yes!
b) Definitely 110% percent!
c) Smarterest President, Ever! (And sooo dreamy to boot)

Those aren't real poll choices but they may as well be:

CNN: Is Obama the super-president?

156

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:18:35am

re: #79 Thanos

Can you get a grip for just a moment and see that source doesn't matter when something is absolutely and empirically factual? You sound like a leftist trying to deconstruct and rewrite history when you whine like this.

*Blink* *Blink*

You know the first sentence ("who cares if we rewrite history") doesn't jive with the second ("rewriting history bad!")?

157

rightymouse Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:18:59am

re: #130 captdiggs

You really don't know me.
I As I said, I just hate watching this, and I think too much time and energy is being devoted to destroying each other.
And just FYI I have been an ardent supporter of freedom and democracy, especially since I was in the USMC, assigned to Lebanon in 1983, where I saw first hand the butchery of radical political Islam.
Hence my focus on that.
If Charles and others wish to continue what they are doing, they are free to do so, obviously.

Are you going to go and scold Spencer, GoV and Pamela too? Or are you just one-sided in terms of who is supposed to just shut up?

158

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:19:33am

re: #143 Jimash

Honestly- I'm not much concerned about the photograph. I'm more concerned that mr spencer posted nazi apologia to defend himself by publishing a denial from manfred rouhs, who most certainly has his past in neo-nazi parties, as the entire pro-koln party has. The photoshop issue is nothing more than red meat for robert's rabid, Charles-hating fans. The two people at jihad watch who pointed out the nazi associations of these people were ridiculed.

159

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:19:45am

See why I don't go to other web sites?

160

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:20:06am

re: #146 gegenkritik

The fact that the background of the image is altered, is out of question.
You don't really assume that Beisicht and Dewinter are shaking hands when just some meters behind them there is a bunch of angry leftists and no police between them? No way.

You're amazing. You just won't answer the question. We pride ourselves here at LGF in trying to make accurate statements. And Lizards will frequently point problems out to each other.

You make a definitive statement, which you added NO PROOF for. Many people read this blog, both our supporters and our detractors.

Our detractors are famous for clipping and pasting and linking to inaccurate statement like yours to try to discredit Charles, this site and the commenters here.

I asked you for clarification, you give me none. You said it, not me, and I will ask you for a forth time... you said...

"They have, I am quite sure that it was originally altered by some leftists at indymedia Germany"

Where is your proof that it was altered by some leftist at indymedia Germany?

161

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:20:36am

re: #150 William Woody

The guilt by association thing, however, leaves me quite cold and strikes me as an ad hominem attack: it's attacking the person rather than the arguments.

It is not ad hominem to point out who is trying to give assistance and credibility to whom. You have missed the whole point.

162

solomonpanting Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:20:56am

Whether or not it's fake...it's accurate.

163

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:20:59am

re: #150 William Woody

It's not an association, there are multiple meetings, multiple photos, it's a working political partnership. VB uses the Pro-Koln logo, you can find it all over their sites.

164

captdiggs Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:21:06am

re: #147 Thanos

And I would rather see honesty and truth than hysteria and hyperbole. Over time truth always wins, and hysteria and hyperbole detracts from efforts

Completely agree.
This photo episode only shows that one side or the other in this has been played.

165

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:21:07am

re: #148 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I made fun of you earlier.

Hi.

I'm sorry I missed it. I suspect it was classic. How's the "no money for the children" campaign going?

166

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:21:42am

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, I don't have anything in common with anyone who associates themselves with Neo-Nazi's, fascists, white nationalist and so forth.

Obviously you do.

I thought we were discussing the ability to discern "truth" on the innertubes. Obviously I was mistaken.

167

capitalist piglet Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:22:23am

re: #155 Spiritualized

File this under: 'I assumed it was The Onion when I saw the headline':

Is Obama the super-president?

a) Yes!
b) Definitely 110% percent!
c) Smarterest President, Ever! (And sooo dreamy to boot)

Those aren't real poll choices but they may as well be:

CNN: Is Obama the super-president?

I will file it under "Gag Me With A Rototiller".

168

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:22:30am

re: #150 William Woody

You haven't taken much time to research these parties yourself, I take it?

Here's some help. I have plenty more if you seriously doubt that fascists still form political movements in europe.

169

tom from pv Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:22:50am

re: #142 Charles

Well, gee. Excuse me for defending myself against another ugly attack on my credibility.

Agreed you had no choice. All I'm saying is that its a distraction that takes some amount of energy away from the more important issues.

170

J.D. Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:22:53am

re: #155 Spiritualized

File this under: 'I assumed it was The Onion when I saw the headline':

Is Obama the super-president?

a) Yes!
b) Definitely 110% percent!
c) Smarterest President, Ever! (And sooo dreamy to boot)

Those aren't real poll choices but they may as well be:

CNN: Is Obama the super-president?

For Obama, hipness is what it is
He is so kewl.

171

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:23:12am

Lots more pictures of Beisicht and DeWinter -- at the Pro Koln website itself:

[Link: www.pro-koeln.net...]

This is not ad hominem. These are fascists associating with fascists.

172

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:23:14am

re: #150 William Woody

It looks as if you didn't get the point.

This is not primarily about two people shaking hands, and about the photo where they are doing it having been photoshopped.
Its not about a handshake as sign of neo-nazism.

Its about the fact that their two organisations are neonazist, as anyone can see if they look up the links.
Its about two anti-jihadist bloggers aligning themselves with these Eurofascists and, in order to distract from that, they now shout about the photoshopped background.
Note well that they do not say these hand-shakers are not neonazis, note that they do not say they will not participate in their 'conference'.

Its not about personalities being maligned - its about the true danger of aligning oneself with these filth-spewing neonazis.

And on top of that, its about Charles defending himself - having to defend himself, alas! - against the personal smears coming from those other bloggers.

Now do you get it?

173

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:23:14am

re: #166 William Woody

I thought we were discussing the ability to discern "truth" on the innertubes. Obviously I was mistaken.

Yep, you are, what was your first clue?

174

Jetpilot1101 Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:23:19am

re: #150 William Woody

Guilt by association is unfortunate but true in a world where perception is oftentimes tied to reality. The continual association with these types of groups by AS and JW leads me to believe that they know what they are associating with and hence are guilty. If Spencer and Geller had associated themselves with these groups and then, when it came to light that they were nothing but despicable Nazi's, they had completely distanced themselves, it would be a different issue. The fact is that both RS and PG know who they are choosing as friends and have done nothing to show us that either of them disagree with the ideas of the groups they support.

175

carefulnow Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:23:27am

re: #149 Thanos

Is there a translation?

176

psyop Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:23:50am

re: #149 Thanos

Here's another photo of the two at the Pro-Koln site itself, is this "Belgian psyops?"

/

Yeesh.... if so, they would be a discredit to the skill....

177

Wild Knight Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:23:58am

re: #150 William Woody

A friend of mine has a photograph of him shaking hands with George W. Bush. I don't think that photograph implies anything other than President Bush made himself available for a handshake line. A photograph may be worth a thousand words, but it doesn't mean those thousand words are true.

And how often do we rail against bias in the major media on this site? :-)

Truthfully I find some of the arguments you've been making about European political connections to racist beliefs fairly compelling, though I also suspect that accusations of racist beliefs is also part of the fabric of European political smear campaigns, so I'm not convinced it really is as it seems. The photograph, on the other hand, is useless, outside of showing the fact that the source of that photograph clearly has an agenda and is more interested in promulgating that agenda than in reporting the truth.

On the other hand, I'm quite convinced that at least some element of European politics is intimately tied in with a fairly repugnant racist element. I'm convinced of that because I read an essay on Brussels Journal which explicitly argued against a (traditional) liberal democratic tradition (such as the one we enjoy in the United States) because it placed individual liberty above cultural (and racial) conformity.

Ewwww.

The guilt by association thing, however, leaves me quite cold and strikes me as an ad hominem attack: it's attacking the person rather than the arguments.

I'm afraid that Charles has posted many articles outlining the connections between Vlaams Belang and some of the most revolting groups of the European right. I even remember that Charles had posted an interview with Filip DeWinter during which the camera panning around the room revealed the curiously-shaped "Celtic" Cross which has become the emblem of most European fascist parties. This is the cross, the one next to the Swastika: Fascist Cross. I know these parties all too well. I'm European. Charles has a watertight argument. Go through LGF's archives and check out the evidence before saying that Charles indulges in ad hominem argumenta.

178

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:24:14am

William,

The photograph does matter, since unlike your friend with George Bush, there are many others out there that reinforce that it's not 'just a photograph.' The fact that this photograph was altered does not change this.

179

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:24:52am

re: #171 Charles

Lots more pictures of Beisicht and DeWinter -- at the Pro Koln website itself:

[Link: www.pro-koeln.net...]

This is not ad hominem. These are fascists associating with fascists.

Here's more:

[Link: www.pro-koeln-online.de...]

180

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:25:06am

re: #154 cagney

Thanks for posting this link- it bears repeating.
I had the link in the LNDT already - do sign the petition, please, Lizards!

181

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:25:09am

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

Actually, very well thank you. The children are all not going to get health care because of MEEEEEEEE!

182

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:26:00am

re: #155 Spiritualized

They forgot to provide a
[] Present

selection.

183

J.D. Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:26:01am

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

See why I don't go to other web sites?

I know what you mean.

184

Spiritualized Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:26:04am

Politico morons get upset with Huckerbee because he states historic facts, apparently this means he's "going right."

Huck goes right on Israel

[Israelis] not only have a right to existence, which is a fundamental agreement dating back to the early 1900s in the Balfour Declaration, but a right to a secure homeland. The tiny sliver of real estate they occupy, surrounded by people who are hostile to them, is really a very vulnerable place for them. Hoping for this two-state solution is simply not practical.

185

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:26:04am

re: #160 Walter L. Newton
Once again, I said I have no proof who altered it, but I am quite sure that I saw this last year at Indymedia (they often use such pictures to illustrate their reports).
That the image is altered, is out of question for me, as I explained above. Beisicht is a very well-known fascist in Cologne, if he would pose in front of an antifa-mob like at the image, that would be near-suicide even with the police between them, believe me.

186

rightymouse Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:26:15am

re: #162 solomonpanting

Whether or not it's fake...it's accurate.

I've been having a brain melt-down on that one all morning and it's not getting any better.

187

jwb7605 Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:26:53am

re: #169 tom from pv

Agreed you had no choice. All I'm saying is that its a distraction that takes some amount of energy away from the more important issues.

When assaulting any primary target, I strongly recommend you acknowledge "distractions" on your flanks. The energy expended is typically worthwhile.

188

avanti Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:26:56am

re: #155 Spiritualized

File this under: 'I assumed it was The Onion when I saw the headline':

Is Obama the super-president?

a) Yes!
b) Definitely 110% percent!
c) Smarterest President, Ever! (And sooo dreamy to boot)

Those aren't real poll choices but they may as well be:

CNN: Is Obama the super-president?

Gallup has him meeting or exceeding expectations by 86% of those polled after 100 days, but I suspect the rights expectations were set pretty low.

new poll.

189

researchok Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:27:03am

It is fascinating to me to see the lengths some people will go to to divert attention from reality.

Neither Geller or Spenser can argue the relationship between Filip DeWinter and Markus Beisicht is contrived. Instead, they attempt to divert attention to the origins of the photo, as if that were enough to hide reality and thus enhance their own credibility (in the shrink business we call that 'magical thinking'. Don't laugh, it's a real disorder).

Given their past (and apparently current associations) it is not only fair to scrutinize these Euro anti Jihadists, it is mandatory. Charles isn't the problem here. That distinction goes to anyone who tries to whitewash and rebrand these politicians and parties with less than savory pasts.

Sunlight is an old remedy that has proved to be very effective.

I just want to know why these Euro anti Jihadis with checkered pasts don't renounce those ugly beliefs. If George Wallace could do it, so can they.

190

slartybartfast Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:27:53am

re: #151 tom from pv

So when I see Obama with his thumb-shake and giant grin with Hugo Chavez, I should assume he accepts his policies?

Hmmm, I'm not sure I ever saw Bush thumb-shaking Chavez.

Anyways, this was a distraction that seems to be working.

Actually, in BHO's case, it might be simple ignorance. While the Pres was watching ESPN, Chavez was trampling individual liberty. Does BHO accept Chavez's policies in Venezuela? He may have no idea...

191

NukeAtomrod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:28:40am

Here's another look at the photo showing what I'm talking about. See the sharp lines where the pixelation ends in a right angle?

Image: compare3.jpg

192

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:29:54am

re: #191 NukeAtomrod

Here's another look at the photo showing what I'm talking about. See the sharp lines where the pixelation ends in a right angle?

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

Very abrupt.

193

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:30:09am

re: #183 J.D.

I went to one of the "stalker" sites to leave a message for a former lizard. Ended up reading for a little while.

Actually said to myself, audibly, "See? See why you don't go to other sites?"

I have found a site that I believe in; and people on it that I trust (as much as I feel I should, some more, some less).

Charles, these people who have a problem with you? I don't know them; don't care to. Does it make me an ostrich?

194

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:30:11am

re: #171 Charles

This is not ad hominem. These are fascists associating with fascists.

It seems that if you point out fascists hanging out with fascists, that's an ad hominem. Next thing you'll know, calling somebody a fascist will be an ad hominem, even if they have a bunch of fascist rhetoric noted on fascist websites!

I guess they are attacking themselves with ad hominems!

195

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:30:17am

re: #171 Charles

Lots more pictures of Beisicht and DeWinter -- at the Pro Koln website itself:

[Link: www.pro-koeln.net...]

This is not ad hominem. These are fascists associating with fascists.

Those are film clips, the bald guy you see in foreground looks like the Voorposter that Filip takes everywhere for security, Luc Vermuelen.

196

Jimash Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:30:42am

re: #158 Sharmuta

Totally agree.

197

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:30:47am

re: #150 William Woody

Keep digging--you might hit China soon!

198

DEZes Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:31:06am

re: #191 NukeAtomrod

Here's another look at the photo showing what I'm talking about. See the sharp lines where the pixelation ends in a right angle?

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

I have found a very high resolution image of the two on the building shaking hands, its not altered, your wasting your time.
and ours.

199

slartybartfast Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:31:48am

re: #198 DEZes

Linky?

200

BlueCanuck Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:31:52am

re: #187 jwb7605

When assaulting any primary target, I strongly recommend you acknowledge "distractions" on your flanks. The energy expended is typically worthwhile.

Murphy's Laws of Combat operations #whatever (used to have about twenty of them): The enemy distraction to the flank will eventually turn out to be the main attack.

201

NukeAtomrod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:32:36am

re: #198 DEZes

I have found a very high resolution image of the two on the building shaking hands, its not altered, your wasting your time.
and ours.

Link Please.

202

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:32:39am

re: #150 William Woody

I'm an elected official in my town. I frequently have to shake hands with those who I oppose. I oppose their policies. I speak out against their policies and viewpoints - and I attempt to present a better viewpoint and vision. But, I still shake their hands when offered in most cases because I try to be polite. My body language in these cases demonstrate politeness - not a fawning or a close connection. I don't agree with President Obama, but I will respect his office and shake his hand if offered. I don't agree with deWinter, for example, and would not shake his hand because not only do I not respect him or his positions, I feel no compelling reason to be polite to him.

My words and actions define me and what I stand for more than just a photograph to be polite. Reasonable people should and do look at these words and actions in addition to the photograph to judge me and my positions. When we look at the words and actions of the leaders of these Eurofascist parties, we can judge their character and beliefs. When we see multiple photos of them greeting each other and acting as friends, we can process this with the words and actions to further substantiate our judgment of them.

When we look at Pamela and Robert, and their positions regarding these groups and the odious policies, and they attempt to justify the positions based on focusing solely on that these fascists are fighting jihad and decide to overlook all of their other reprehensible policies, then we can judge them on the basis of their words and actions.

They don't like being judged in this manner because it demonstrates the bankruptcy of their position. But rather than address it, they decide to deflect the argument. To me, it's just more of their bankruptcy.

203

DEZes Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:33:22am

re: #199 slartybartfast

Linky?

original photo

204

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:33:34am

re: #191 NukeAtomrod

Here's another look at the photo showing what I'm talking about. See the sharp lines where the pixelation ends in a right angle?

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

That sharp angle is another artifact of JPEG compression. The compression algorithm works by dividing an image into square sections. What I see in that closeup is absolutely not unusual for a compressed image.

I suspect the photo with the demonstration in the background is the altered one, because as gegenkritik points out it's extremely unlikely that DeWinter and Beisicht would be standing unconcerned in front of a mob of Antifa demonstrators. (Antifa is the semi-radical antifascist group; DeWinter and Beisicht would be risking personal harm by getting so close to them.)

205

Jimash Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:35:11am

Doh

206

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:35:18am

re: #126 Sharmuta

You're aware that the people involved decided to cast their lots in with nazis, and to avoid the criticisms of that decision, smeared Charles and LGF?

I'm aware of the argument. I still read both web sites, and I've even commented on Jihad Watch that I believed the use of inflammatory language there was distracting and childish.

I'm just not convinced of the arguments on either side.

I believe Charles' original concern that in Europe the anti-Jihadist movement has been co-opted by less than reputable folks is probably true: the moderate conservative European movement has essentially given way to the extremists in the same way that the small government Republican party of Ronald Reagan here has given way to the likes of Buchanan and Ron Paul. But the implication that Robert Spencer's tentative acceptance of a speaking engagement there means he's "thrown in his lot with the neo-NAZIs" strikes me as a much a stretch as the implication that my voting Republican means I agree whole heartedly with McCain or Buchanan.

On the other hand, I find the arguments of Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer that somehow Charles has abandoned the conservative movement, and using as evidence his concern about creationists in the school system, even less compelling. I happen to share Charles concern about creationists, even though I see myself as conservative and nearly always vote the straight 'R' ticket. The idea that you cannot be a card carrying conservative concerned with smaller government and lowering taxes unless you are willing to drive religious indoctrination down the throats of students in science class strikes me as particularly repugnant.

The whole thing just strikes me as extremely petty.

207

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:35:25am

Ok, lizards....I need some help finding some stuff and I have too many damn windows open so I'll post this so I can close some out.....

Getty Images

(L-R) Markus Beisicht (Germany), Heinz-Christian Strache (Austria), Filip Dewinter (Belgium), and Robert Spieler (France) of several European right wing parties pose with signs, after the presentation of their organisation of 'Cities against Islamisation' in Antwerp, 17 January 2008.

Heinz-Christian Strache looks good in uniform (photoshop?)

Another pic here: Austrian Far-Right Leader Attacked For Alleged Neo-Nazi Past - Jewish Community Criticizes Government for Under-Reacting

Heinz-Christian Strache and Nazi Salute

Snapshots taken from a video in the late 80s were published in January 2007 showing a uniformed Strache participating in paramilitary training activities. Other people on the pictures were claimed to be known neo-nazis. Strache has denied that, claiming the pictures are of him playing Gotcha.
At the end of January, further pictures were published, showing Strache performing a Nazi salute (the Kühnen salute). Strache denied the allegations prior to publication of the pictures. After publication, Strache argued that the picture showed him ordering three beers and was not a Nazi salute.

I can't find the pic of him giving the salute or the video. I'll bet there's a juicy hat tip for someone who can dig them up.

208

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:35:29am

re: #197 MandyManners

Keep digging--you might hit China soon!

And here I was going to remind him of the first rule of hole digging......

209

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:35:40am

Hey, they aren't just pro North Rhine Westphalia, they are UBER Pro North Rhine Westphalia... who's that guy in the photo?
[Link: www.kongress.pro-nrw-online.de...]

210

itellu3times Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:36:13am

re: #121 NukeAtomrod

Hi everyone. I blew up these pictures to 1600% in Photoshop and the edited photo is obvious. Here are the pictures:

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

I blew them up here, too, and I still think the citiscape is the original, the banners are a new background. In the banner picture, look at the shoulder of the guy on (our) left, has a hole in it, where the dark from the background in the banner bleeds through from the paste job. That's the most obvious fault I spotted. Overall, it's a nice job.

211

Nevergiveup Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:37:41am

Hygienist is in the middle of her last cleaning. My eyes are closing waiting. I'm so bored I am watching the Met Game?

212

DEZes Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:37:50am

re: #201 NukeAtomrod

Link Please.

See post 203.

213

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:37:56am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

So, it was ok with you that Obama sat through those many sermons on black nationalism at Wright's church, since Obama claims to be a Christian?

You're now confusing the discussion of the nature of a person verses the nature of arguments made by a person.

If judging the worth of President-Elect Obama as President, clearly his attendance at Trinity counts. But if you are judging President Obama's arguments for environmental regulation, his attendance at Trinity doesn't matter one whit.

214

NukeAtomrod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:38:14am

Okay everyone. I agree. I stand corrected.

215

itellu3times Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:38:35am

re: #191 NukeAtomrod

Here's another look at the photo showing what I'm talking about. See the sharp lines where the pixelation ends in a right angle?

[Link: i243.photobucket.com...]

It's not nearly that easy. Do even a sloppy paste job, save down to jpeg again, and paste lines get fudged. If you have lots of pixels to start and can compress down to lesser resolution, even moreso.

I'm not even up on newer tools that could smooth paste boundaries, but I'll betcha there are some.

216

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:38:57am

re: #207 Killgore Trout

More on Strache.....
The far right is on the march again: the rise of Fascism in Austria

I'm not a Nazi, and I like kebabs, says Far Right leader Heinz-Christian Strache (video interview where he talks about the nazi salute)

217

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:39:39am

re: #206 William Woody

But the implication that Robert Spencer's tentative acceptance of a speaking engagement there means he's "thrown in his lot with the neo-NAZIs" strikes me as a much a stretch as the implication that my voting Republican means I agree whole heartedly with McCain or Buchanan.

I would suggest that you contact mr spencer and ask him which european parties he utterly rejects, but I know for a fact he won't reject any of them if they're "fighting jihad".

Additionally, robert has european ethnic nationalists sitting on the board of directors for jihad watch. Did you know that?

218

solomonpanting Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:39:56am

re: #206 William Woody

that the small government Republican party of Ronald Reagan here has given way to the likes of Buchanan and Ron Paul.

So what percentage of the vote have these guys recieved in recent Presidential elections?

219

MandyManners Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:41:56am

re: #206 William Woody

I find your defense of Nazis disgusting.

220

Arrr Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:41:57am

Winston Churchill once said that if Adolf Hitler invaded Hell he'd make an alliance with Satan.

Now that great power war is long dead, that kind of logic is no longer relevant. If euro-fascists are at war with Islamist fascists, we make alliances with none.

If you think about it, this war against Islamist fascism is really a war on tribalism, with Islamist fascism being by far the biggest enemy, but other ugly forms of tribalism (i.e. euro-fascists, ultra-nationalists, etc) are (or should be) on our shit list as well.

221

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:42:02am

re: #147 Thanos

Right on brother!

If you guys read the thread from last night, you will see that I spent a bit of time messaging Robert Spencer and posting here. I wish to reiterate my thanks to Charles for again stating that Spencer said he is not going.

If Spencer goes he is living human feces. But the 9 messages from the man last night expressed, in no uncertain terms he is not going.

Charles has always admitted when he is wrong and has never deviated form his contempt for the new transnational Nazi Alliance (Vlaams et al). I hate them too. These are good things. It is why I am proud to be part of the LGF community.

I maintain the Vlaams folks are having a bit of laugh at our expense. Two important voices of opposition to militant Islam, Spencer (assuming he does not go) and LGF are set against each other to our collective detriment. The whole reason I reached out to Spencer was the idea of him allied with Nazis sickened me.

Truth and openness are always the best medicine. Let us hope that Spencer is true to his word. Charles has noted his denial and, I am sure, will note when May 9th passes without Robert Spencer high-fiving with the Stuttgart People's Jackboot Committee.

I will also add that words have consequences, in one of his messages to me Spencer said he has had people contact him because they incorrectly thought he was the US rep for Vlaams Belang! He is not their rep.

This blog has noted hundreds of times the organic historic alliance between fascists and Islamists. To oppose one and not the other is to oppose neither. Both are enemies of freedom and must be fought if need be to our last breath.

The anti-Islamist movement needs an LGF and a Jihad Watch that are able to peacefully coexist. It is my great hope that in a couple of weeks, this will blow over and all of us can get back to the real work ahead. In blog wars like this, no one wins but the Islamists. We need to get back to the real fight: preventing 9 year olds from being married off and raped, defending women's rights, preventing forced clitorectimizations and not letting Shari'a law get so much as a toe hold over our society. These is the real fight. This is wear our words should be pointed. I ask everyone to dial down the rhetoric and let the truth come out.

Lastly, Pam is a clown and I don't care what she says and if Charles never mentioned that jerk ever again, I would be delighted. She has no credibility nor any common sense. Feh.

222

Ojoe Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:42:12am

It is common sense to stand aside and let the jihadis and neo-nazis practice some mutual annihilation.

Should we be so lucky.

223

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:42:14am

re: #206 William Woody

I'm just not convinced of the arguments on either side.

I believe Charles' original concern that in Europe the anti-Jihadist movement has been co-opted by less than reputable folks is probably true: the moderate conservative European movement has essentially given way to the extremists in the same way that the small government Republican party of Ronald Reagan here has given way to the likes of Buchanan and Ron Paul. But the implication that Robert Spencer's tentative acceptance of a speaking engagement there means he's "thrown in his lot with the neo-NAZIs" strikes me as a much a stretch as the implication that my voting Republican means I agree whole heartedly with McCain or Buchanan.

I guess it time to trot out the old Spencer email. It's evident that Robert doesn't care if the movements have been co-opted by less than reputable folks, since he ADMITS that below.

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

I have heard MANY people wonder how the Nazi's could have achieved what they did in the 1930's. IMO, I would like to put Woody up as an example of how it happened.

To many Woody's and we will have a repeat of history, and by all indicators, we already have too many Woody's and we are well on our way to another disaster.

Thanks Woody.

224

KSK Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:42:23am

Actually after examining both photos closely, I believe both are shopped (not the handshake but the background)

225

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:42:24am

re: #217 Sharmuta

Additionally, robert has european ethnic nationalists sitting on the board of directors for jihad watch. Did you know that?

Sorry- I'll correct myself- there is one euro ethnic nationalist on the BoD of JW.

226

Ojoe Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:43:00am

re: #220 Arrr

No, that if satan invaded Gremany, etc.

227

rightymouse Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:43:03am

re: #213 William Woody

You're now confusing the discussion of the nature of a person verses the nature of arguments made by a person.

If judging the worth of President-Elect Obama as President, clearly his attendance at Trinity counts. But if you are judging President Obama's arguments for environmental regulation, his attendance at Trinity doesn't matter one whit.

Reading your non sequitur crap gives me a raging headache.

I think I'll go for a walk.

228

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:43:06am

I wonder if a plethora of non-fauxtograph pics of Spencer and deWinter would change the argument being made that photos don't really matter.

229

Occasional Reader Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:43:15am

Elsewhere:

In today's Washington Post opinion page (semi-flying pig?), former Director of Central Intelligence Porter Goss points out the strange amnesia afflicting current members of Congress regarding "enhanced interrogation" techniques.

Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as "waterboarding" were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience...

The suggestion that we are safer now because information about interrogation techniques is in the public domain conjures up images of unicorns and fairy dust. We have given our enemy invaluable information about the rules by which we operate. The terrorists captured by the CIA perfected the act of beheading innocents using dull knives. Khalid Sheik Mohammed boasted of the tactic of placing explosives high enough in a building to ensure that innocents trapped above would die if they tried to escape through windows. There is simply no comparison between our professionalism and their brutality.

230

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:44:06am

re: #221 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

He posted a whitewash of these people! Did you not notice that?!

231

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:44:20am

re: #206 William Woody

More equivocation.

These fringe groups are remaking themselves in order to appeal in a populist effort to the anti-immigration / anti-islam forces that are in play in Europe. But, they remain tainted by their fascism and their fringe position. They desire and need recognition and acceptance from those thought to be in the mainstream in order to tout their new position as part of the mainstream.

Useful idiots like Pamela - 'American conservative journalist' and Robert provide these groups with the propaganda message to say to Europe, 'See, the American conservatives support us. They appear at our events. They call for us to help fight the jihad (which promotes the anti-immigration / nationalistic / supremacist positions of these groups). We are something. We are mainstream now.'

The left, here and in Europe will view this and then start their own campaign, 'Look at how evil and deranged conservatives are - they are allying with the Euro-nazi's. We can't trust any of them because they are all nazi's at heart.'

Any message becomes distorted by this crap....crap that can be avoided by sticking to our moral and ethical principles and stand against Euro-nazi's and their useful idiots.

232

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #224 KSK

Actually after examining both photos closely, I believe both are shopped (not the handshake but the background)

And what is your proof (not that it matters at this point, I think KSK is just trying to be funny)

Hey, KSK, if this was meant to be sarcastic or funny, use a tag to indicate that.

233

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:45:26am

re: #221 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Right on brother!

If you guys read the thread from last night, you will see that I spent a bit of time messaging Robert Spencer and posting here. I wish to reiterate my thanks to Charles for again stating that Spencer said he is not going.

If Spencer goes he is living human feces. But the 9 messages from the man last night expressed, in no uncertain terms he is not going.

Then why hasn't he announced that publicly on his website?

234

researchok Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:45:41am

The photos of Filip DeWinter and Markus Beisicht are not about political glad handing or cordial behavior (such as that between Obama and Chavez.

Those photos do not represent shared time and space at some event, but rather about shared politics and ideologies. DeWinter and Beischet were not together because they each approved of a bake sale- they were at events that highlighted their common beliefs.

Antisemitism has been politically incorrect for a long time now. Anti Muslim agendas are far more acceptable outlets for hate and in some quarters, are even respectable.

It bears remembering that hate is a fickle thing.

235

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:45:47am

re: #142 Charles

Charles, sometimes you have to just let the attacks go. Thus far in this thread I've been accused of being in league with neo-NAZIs, Fascists and the like--and frankly the accusation is beneath answering.

236

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:46:27am

re: #218 solomonpanting

Why do you think the Democrats are in office?!?

237

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:46:33am

re: #221 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

The anti-Islamist movement needs an LGF and a Jihad Watch that are able to peacefully coexist. It is my great hope that in a couple of weeks, this will blow over and all of us can get back to the real work ahead.

That is simply never going to happen.

238

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:46:33am

re: #225 Sharmuta

who?

239

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:46:53am

re: #213 William Woody

If judging the worth of President-Elect Obama as President, clearly his attendance at Trinity counts. But if you are judging President Obama's arguments for environmental regulation, his attendance at Trinity doesn't matter one whit.

240

Mike Nargizian Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:46:55am

Charles -
Pointing out the dangerous rise and legitimization within Europe of the far right is invaluble!
However, at some level a part of this is in large part an infantile flame war with Geller and Spencer and as I said before - hurts your own credibility and gravitas....

At some point it doesn't matter if you're 100% correct or not in the he started it/she started it..... etc... it just becomes a piling on and smiting.... is that what you want as part of your gravitas?

I'm a fan but I'm tired of the pile on in regards to Spencer and Geller...... maybe it's just the way of the Blog world you have to constantly defend and pile on? If so that's not a good statement about the Blog world, in that like the media and Fox Msnbc war for example, whoever yells loudest (corect or not) wins... and you have to keep on yelling else you could lose ground.....?

Mike

241

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:47:22am

re: #221 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

You know- whatever. I'm sad to learn that you are going to find yourself disappointed in the future because you will be. I'm going to stop trying to save you from that.

242

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:48:05am

re: #235 William Woody

Charles, sometimes you have to just let the attacks go.

You can't be serious. I should let these people smear me --- dishonestly! -- without answering it?

Not a chance.

243

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:48:13am

re: #221 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

No where in you long comment do you mention if Robert has given you a reason for deciding not to attend.

His lack of attendance change what I think about his associations. It would be nice if he would publicly make some statement as to why he will not attend.

Until then, for me, nothing has changed.

244

solomonpanting Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:48:22am

re: #236 William Woody

Why do you think the Democrats are in office?!?

McCain received 57 million votes. How many did Buchanan and Paul receive?

245

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:49:06am

re: #235 William Woody

You sure seem to be minimizing associating with them and thereby implying that it doesn't really matter.

246

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:49:11am

re: #238 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

who?

James Jatras.

247

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:49:15am

re: #240 Mike Nargizian

However, at some level a part of this is in large part an infantile flame war with Geller and Spencer and as I said before - hurts your own credibility and gravitas....

Nice. So now I'm "hurting my credibility" by defending myself against dishonest attacks on my credibility.

What planet are you people from?

248

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Spencer and Melanie Phillips are lying.....
Strache: A limp-handed Nazi salute?

The pic they are using is of him making a hand gesture while giving a speech.
From my 207....

showing Strache performing a Nazi salute (the Kühnen salute). Strache denied the allegations prior to publication of the pictures. After publication, Strache argued that the picture showed him ordering three beers and was not a Nazi salute.

The salute in question took place in a bar, not giving a speech at a podium as spencer and philips claim.

249

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:50:10am

re: #235 William Woody

Charles, sometimes you have to just let the attacks go. Thus far in this thread I've been accused of being in league with neo-NAZIs, Fascists and the like--and frankly the accusation is beneath answering.

Damn hard to answer when you have so successfully alined yourself with the fascists in multiple comments here.

Hard to take back what you have said.

250

researchok Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:51:12am

re: #237 Charles

You're right.

There will never be 'coexistence' because they would have to admit they were wrong.

They have their entire self worth wrapped up in being right- not in being honest.

Big, big difference.

251

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:51:14am

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

Robert Spencer is a one-issue guy. So?

252

Cato the Elder Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:51:54am

I was out getting my car back from the shop, so someone may already have pointed this out.

Since the supposed fauxto came from a pro-Nazi website, it actually bolsters Charles's original point: the Nazis consider both these guys their allies, and are eager to prove it. Even if it was done by someone trying to smear B&B, the fact that a Nazi site endorses it means they like what they see.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

253

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:52:23am

re: #221 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

He is however a rep for the American Council for Kosovo. Paul Weyrich was his sugardaddy. Follow the google links, I trust you to be smart in recognizing the paleo groups aligned.

254

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:52:26am

re: #251 William Woody

Robert Spencer is a one-issue guy. So?

Git.

255

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:52:33am

re: #237 Charles

I am an incurable optimist, even my mother says so.

re: #233 Charles

I don't know. Personally, I would clarify the matter immediately but I can say, and as you saw in the message I forwarded to you last night, Spencer is not your biggest fan. I know Spencer only through his messages to me last night. My guess is he detests you so much he can't even bring himself to acknowledge you or LGF on his site.

I think everyone should mark their calendars for May 9th, then all will be known.

256

NukeAtomrod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:52:57am

Since I'm eating crow anyway, I did a quick search and found the background pic used in the first picture. The first pic is absolutely a photoshopped one.

Image: nogo-area-fuer-nazis.jpg

257

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:54:23am

re: #240 Mike Nargizian

At some point it doesn't matter if you're 100% correct or not....

Charles is far from that point. While the attacks continue and people continue to question his replies on his own thread, more web pages will be filled with what you deem is a waste of time.

Why contribute to it? You are questioning somebody who is replying to attacks on their integrity and implying that to do so is pandering to schoolyard emotions. I can't believe you can't tell the difference.

You would be true if no new attacks were made but Charles kept continuing to bring it up. That's so far from reality to not even being considered. I

258

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:54:24am

re: #251 William Woody

Robert Spencer is a one-issue guy. So?

You have got to be kidding? You say that and whinge about how you are treated?

It's time to stop digging.

259

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:54:39am

re: #242 Charles

Charles, I'm perfectly serious.

Read what people have just accused me in the past half-hour in this thread. Do you think it would help this thread if I took the time to answer all the attacks that have just been made towards me? Do you think I should turn this into an "am not! am so!" flamewar over if I cavort with neo-NAZIs or (as just has been accused) that I am part of the reason why the NAZIs are rising again in the West?

At some point someone has to get off the merry-go-round. And if the other side continues to fling poo--do you think readers on the 'net won't be able to see the score for themselves?

260

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:54:40am

re: #251 William Woody

Robert Spencer is a one-issue guy. So?

Simple question, a yes or no answer from you please. Stormfront represents a who gaggle of Neo-Nazi's. One of their positions is that they are anti-jihad.

If you were an expert on jihad and against it, would you speak at a Stormfront rally?

Yes or no.

261

carefulnow Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:55:14am

In my humble opinion, one should never "let these attacks go," especially in such a nimble forum as a blog.

It is not "beneath" anyone to be able to correct a mistake regarding the genuineness of a photograph, but that the point of the photo was in the foreground.

And to anyone who thinks there are more important things to discuss, start your own blog and keep it as on point as you think. Bully for you.

262

lostlakehiker Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:55:32am

re: #52 William Woody

It seems to me that it does matter that the photograph that Charles originally ran was photoshopped, because it suggests that the web site from where Charles got the photograph has an agenda to distort the truth. This suggests that at least some of the web sites Charles is going to get his information about the situation on the ground is biased and perhaps factually incorrect.

(Note I'm not saying Charles wants to distort the truth; only that at least some of his sources of information are clearly--with this photograph as an example--distorting the truth.)

The history of LGF is grounds for high confidence in Charles' integrity. His good judgment is likewise well established. But everybody makes mistakes from time to time.

Charles fell for the photoshopping. Probably his source site fell for it as well. It's all too easy to believe false evidence against a man when there's so much unimpeachable evidence already on display. Who looks at every photo with a beady eye, analyzing lighting in foreground and background (Among other telltale signs of faux-ness?)

Naked eye on-the-fly forensic analysis of photography is possible to some extent, but unless a red flag goes up and alerts us to the possibility of a fake, we're most of us going to miss it.

263

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:55:55am

More spencer associations with nationalists

264

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:56:08am

re: #255 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I am an incurable optimist, even my mother says so.

re: #233 Charles

I don't know. Personally, I would clarify the matter immediately but I can say, and as you saw in the message I forwarded to you last night, Spencer is not your biggest fan. I know Spencer only through his messages to me last night. My guess is he detests you so much he can't even bring himself to acknowledge you or LGF on his site.

I think everyone should mark their calendars for May 9th, then all will be known.

Uh, I'll just point out that you were clamoring for me to "retract" my post that said he was confirmed to speak at the meeting.

Maybe you should devote some of that same effort to getting Spencer to clarify whether he REALLY IS attending the meeting? Publicly, where it matters?

265

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:56:23am

re: #248 Killgore Trout

Here's Strache, Besicht, DeWinter, and who's that lady to Filip's side? Is that our anti-roma lady?
Image: ProKoeln.jpg

266

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:56:51am

re: #259 William Woody

Anything you'd like to say about robert's associations with various ethnic nationalists?

267

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:57:04am

re: #243 Walter L. Newton

From Spencer's email last night:

This is false, I have not confirmed that I am going to speak in Cologne, and I have no ties to neo-Nazis.

Could the man be more clear?

re: #246 Sharmuta

I will look into this.

268

Mike Nargizian Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:57:07am

re: #247 Charles

Nice. So now I'm "hurting my credibility" by defending myself against dishonest attacks on my credibility.

What planet are you people from?

Since I see LGF as up here (so to speak) and Geller down there... on the value level.... if you keep smiting her it brings you down to her level.... What value does any of her infantile rantings have? Has any of her blogroll not on the far right bandwagon de listed or de valued LGF? Not one....
She's taken a thorough beating from you already.... what value do any of her comments have at this point?
So my point is - how much of your posts are going to continue to follow her and Spencer? At what point does it saturate your blog?

269

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:57:48am

Gosh folks, we may have to rethink this whole Hitler-Mussolini association thing now as well, in the light of this picture, which I suspect has been photoshopped. Take a look and see what you think...

Image: HitlerandMussoliniWikipedia1940bart.jpg

270

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:57:49am

re: #267 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I appreciate you doing so. Again:

[Link: www.kejda.net...]

271

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:57:58am

re: #255 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Has Robert has given you a reason for deciding not to attend?

272

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:58:26am

re: #265 Thanos

Which anti-roma lady? All I can think of is Mussolini's daughter and that's certainly not her.

273

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 10:58:41am

re: #262 lostlakehiker

The history of LGF is grounds for high confidence in Charles' integrity. His good judgment is likewise well established. But everybody makes mistakes from time to time.

Charles fell for the photoshopping.

I have to object to this characterization. I didn't "fall for" anything. The photo shows what it shows -- the background is completely beside the point, which is that DeWinter and Beisicht are associates. And the unaltered photograph does absolutely nothing to change that point.

274

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:00:44am

re: #267 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

From Spencer's email last night:

This is false, I have not confirmed that I am going to speak in Cologne, and I have no ties to neo-Nazis.

Could the man be more clear?

Where is the denial that he's going to attend the meeting?

I see a denial that he confirmed it. But the event's organizers DID confirm it.

Who's lying here?

275

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:00:46am

re: #259 William Woody

William, you're smarter than this. You and Charles are not the same.

Charles integrity, and thereby this website and all who calls themselves Lizards, are under sustained attack by intellectually corrupt parties who themselves own and maintain websites.

You are just a poster, as I. If you and I started calling each other nazis and did the schoolyard thing, your point would hold more merit. However, Charles and you, as far as blogdom goes, are far different. I for one demand that Charles defend himself at the level and tact that he does, including accuracy.

It's hard for me to understand why I have to make this point to some of you.

276

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:01:07am

There are also several reports (unfortunately, most of them are very ugly leftist Antifa-sites) about pro-Köln's demonstrations at around 2001/2002, where Siegfried Borchardt took part.
He is being called SS-Siggi and he's one of the most notorious Nazi-hooligans in Germany.

277

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:01:46am

Come on Woody - there are questions here and here that only require simple answers. Shouldn't be too difficult to do.

278

researchok Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:01:48am

re: #268 Mike Nargizian

This isn't about 'smiting' Geller or Spenser. This is about not tolerating or condoning hate.

There is no such thing as a 'disproportionate response' to hate.

That's a lesson from the 20th century that more people need to learn, remember and apply.

279

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:02:03am

Here's the video of Stache doing his paramilitary thing.....
Gotcha! HC Strache spielt ein bisschen

Youtube Video

Here's why Spencer is so eager to defend him.....
Heinz-Christian Strache: I will Fight Alongside Serbs

280

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:02:21am

re: #268 Mike Nargizian

For those not paying attention, Charles was pretty much ignoring this situation until they brought it up again.

281

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:02:52am

re: #253 Thanos

I have always found the fault line for paleos runs through Israel. Weyrich has been a supporter of strong US-Israel relations. No Buchanan to be sure.

re: #241 Sharmuta I hope I am not. I will not hesitate to drop Spencer like a brick if he is dallying with the enemy. I have given him the benefit of the doubt. He is entitled to that. If he is gaming me, believe me, I won't be saying anything nice about him ever again.

282

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:03:38am

Folks -- please put all these related links into the spinoff links for this thread!

That's what the feature is for.

283

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:03:57am

re: #264 Charles

I will do so at once.

284

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:03:58am

re: #276 gegenkritik

Could you take a look at my #207. I can't seem to find the video or picture of Strache doing the nazi salute. Could you take a quick look for me?

285

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:04:32am

re: #281 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I have always found the fault line for paleos runs through Israel. Weyrich has been a supporter of strong US-Israel relations. No Buchanan to be sure.

re: #241 Sharmuta I hope I am not. I will not hesitate to drop Spencer like a brick if he is dallying with the enemy. I have given him the benefit of the doubt. He is entitled to that. If he is gaming me, believe me, I won't be saying anything nice about him ever again.

If he is gaming you. That's like saying, he hasn't given me a Nazi salute yet, so, until then, I'll just keep my head in the sand.

286

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:05:21am

re: #281 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I have always found the fault line for paleos runs through Israel. Weyrich has been a supporter of strong US-Israel relations. No Buchanan to be sure.

He's also been a strong supporter for Serbia and Russia too. Please google "rockford institute" and look through their list of authors. Cross check that list with VDARE, and then please get back to me.

287

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:06:16am

I've been getting hate mail all morning from Robert Spencer's fans, by the way.

They really love to put friendly sounding titles on their hate messages, so I'll read them. It's the ultimate creepy form of passive aggression.

288

GeicoGecko Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:06:37am

"Classic Misdirection from Spencer and Geller"

Sounds like a review of a Vegas magic act.

Spencer and Geller? Aren't they the big guy with the ponytail and glasses and the little guy that never speaks?

289

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:06:44am

For those who think Charles is lowering himself to AS level: there is more dynamic to this than merely two personalities quibbling. The potential for association with AS at a later date on a significant issue (to us) is paramount to Charles defending himself (and the integrity of Lizardom) against smears emanating from AS, and by default, distancing himself so far that there can never be an association down the road when LGF may be on the same side of an issue as AS.

This is necessary and wise, not petty. Think about it.

290

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:07:10am

re: #283 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

And I have done so.

291

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:07:46am

re: #288 GeicoGecko

"Classic Misdirection from Spencer and Geller"

Sounds like a review of a Vegas magic act.

Spencer and Geller? Aren't they the big guy with the ponytail and glasses and the little guy that never speaks?

Well, than you for your insightful comment. WTF.

292

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:08:02am

re: #286 Thanos

No one is perfect.

293

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:09:06am

re: #281 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I hope you will trust me when I say that I likewise gave mr spencer the benefit of the doubt until it became all to clear to me as well as some others that he was trying to have it both ways. He's on video with pamela as saying the VB are not fascists (around the 2 minute mark).

I cannot agree with Charles enough here that you are being played. Because I hold you in esteem from your many brilliant comments here, it just pains me to watch. Again- I appreciate you stating you'll look into this more. I certainly hope you do.

294

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:09:41am

re: #274 Charles

Where is the denial that he's going to attend the meeting?

I see a denial that he confirmed it. But the event's organizers DID confirm it.

Who's lying here?

I hope the organizers.

295

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:09:54am

re: #275 BigPapa

Charles integrity, and thereby this website and all who calls themselves Lizards, are under sustained attack by intellectually corrupt parties who themselves own and maintain websites.

And how does Charles protect his integrity?

(a) Respond to the attacks,
(b) Don't respond to the attacks.

(Of course each category is pretty wide and contains all sorts of strategies.)

But you are right: there is a difference between comments in a single thread and blog attacks: traffic and reputation.

By responding to the attacks, Charles adds credibility to the attacks, by implying the attacks are worth answering. And if they're worth answering, then the people making the attacks are worth reading. If I had Charles traffic at my own blog, would I really want to divert that traffic to another blog ran by someone who wants to tear me down? (Hell, I wouldn't have subscribed to Atlas Shrugs if I weren't curious to see what the other side was actually saying.)

On the other hand, here in the comments section, what accusations I choose to answer doesn't affect traffic one whit.

296

GeicoGecko Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #291 Walter L. Newton

Are you always this humor impaired?

297

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:10:03am

re: #292 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

another variation of "we allied with Stalin?"

298

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:10:42am

re: #287 Charles

And this is exactly why I have been trying to get this thing settled.

299

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #287 Charles

Just note there are some pretty creepy people in here, too. Isn't that what the disclaimer is for?

300

GeicoGecko Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:12:08am

re: #291 Walter L. Newton

Myabe if you weren't paying so much for auto insurance, you wouldn't be so grumpy.

I can help.

301

researchok Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:12:10am

re: #297 Thanos

Touche

302

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:12:48am

re: #295 William Woody

By responding to the attacks, Charles adds credibility to the attacks, by implying the attacks are worth answering.

What an utterly stupid statement.

303

debutaunt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:12:51am

re: #259 William Woody

Charles, I'm perfectly serious.

Read what people have just accused me in the past half-hour in this thread. Do you think it would help this thread if I took the time to answer all the attacks that have just been made towards me? Do you think I should turn this into an "am not! am so!" flamewar over if I cavort with neo-NAZIs or (as just has been accused) that I am part of the reason why the NAZIs are rising again in the West?

At some point someone has to get off the merry-go-round. And if the other side continues to fling poo--do you think readers on the 'net won't be able to see the score for themselves?

Are you that careless with your own reputation?

304

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:13:09am

re: #284 Killgore Trout

Here.
Back at this time, the Kühnen-salute was quite common among the far-right. This salute was inventend by German Neonazi Michael Kühnen, as the original Nazi-salute is illegal in Germany and Austria (today, the Kühnen-salute is also illegal).

305

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:13:23am

re: #299 William Woody

And yet, you still cannot answer the 2 simple questions posed to you?

306

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:13:46am

re: #296 GeicoGecko

Are you always this humor impaired?

Sometimes fuck wad.

307

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:14:16am

re: #303 debutaunt

Would it add to my reputation if I answered every ad-hominem attack made in my direction?

Or, put it another way: do you seriously believe, based on how I've comported myself in this thread thus far, that I'm aligned with and supportive of the European neo-NAZI movement?

308

Red Pencil Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:14:28am

re: #149 Thanos

Here's another photo of the two at the Pro-Koln site itself, is this "Belgian psyops?"

/

Dig the pro Koln bumper sticker @ top left of the above link. Kind of speaks for itself. They are in favor of Das Volk & a particular familiar echt Deutsch color scheme... and against Islamization and excess "foreignness".

309

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:15:03am

re: #307 William Woody

How about just answering me about robert spencer's ties to ethnic nationalists?

310

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:15:28am

re: #299 William Woody

Simple question, a yes or no answer from you please. Stormfront represents a who gaggle of Neo-Nazi's. One of their positions is that they are anti-jihad.

If you were an expert on jihad and against it, would you speak at a Stormfront rally?

Yes or no.

311

researchok Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:16:00am

After reading this thread, it occurred to me how easily Hitler and Stalin made their ideologies palatable to the masses.

I've said before and I'll say it again: There is no such thing as a disproportionate response to hate.

312

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:16:06am

spencer has also taken it upon himself to attack Michael Totten, and Glen Reynolds.

313

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #307 William Woody

Would it add to my reputation if I answered every ad-hominem attack made in my direction?

Or, put it another way: do you seriously believe, based on how I've comported myself in this thread thus far, that I'm aligned with and supportive of the European neo-NAZI movement?

Yes.

(see how easy it is to answer a question, which you seem to be totally incapable of doing).

314

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:17:02am

re: #307 William Woody

Would it add to my reputation if I answered every ad-hominem attack made in my direction?

Or, put it another way: do you seriously believe, based on how I've comported myself in this thread thus far, that I'm aligned with and supportive of the European neo-NAZI movement?

You make excuses for them implying that their viewpoints are immaterial since they are fighting jihadism. The position is fundamentally no different from the morally and intellectually bankrupt position of Spencer. As long as they oppose your enemy, you welcome any ally regardless of how abhorent they are.

Answer your own question - you accept and acknowledge them for fighting jihad - are you aligned with them?

315

mulgamutt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:18:55am

The bottom is the original. The shadows are more defined, while the shadows in the background of the first image are blurred; there is clearly more direct light in the second image. I think even the scale of the characters in relationship to the background people is off.

But, like you say, Charles. It's no matter.

316

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:19:03am

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

He doesn't want to miss a minute of the NHL playoffs? Any reason is a good reason not to be there.

317

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:20:54am

re: #304 gegenkritik

Here.
Back at this time, the Kühnen-salute was quite common among the far-right. This salute was inventend by German Neonazi Michael Kühnen, as the original Nazi-salute is illegal in Germany and Austria (today, the Kühnen-salute is also illegal).

Ah, thank you very much. Then it's pretty clear that Spencer and Melanie Phillips are lying by using this picture to dismiss it.....
Strache: A limp-handed Nazi salute?

318

Aye Pod Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:21:02am

Harry's Place joins the fray...

Pro Köln is a Fascist Organisation

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

319

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:21:07am

The questions originally posted at 260 and 266 were re-asked - but you still avoid answering them. Yet, the questions you pose are answered.

Do you need to be refreshed with the definition of a troll? Or will you keep avoiding answering legitimate questions asked of you?

320

Kronocide Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:21:27am

re: #295 William Woody

By responding to the attacks, Charles adds credibility to the attacks, by implying the attacks are worth answering. And if they're worth answering, then the people making the attacks are worth reading. If I had Charles traffic at my own blog, would I really want to divert that traffic to another blog ran by someone who wants to tear me down? (Hell, I wouldn't have subscribed to Atlas Shrugs if I weren't curious to see what the other side was actually saying.)

On the other hand, here in the comments section, what accusations I choose to answer doesn't affect traffic one whit.

The credibility is there, that's why Charles is making a sustained defense with the proper levels of strength and timing. However, you're not taking into account what that credibility emanates from, and that's a problem. It's not based on logic or reason, but on the fact that they have a forum with a large amount of acolytes. Their intellectual constructs have no credibility, so therefore if that was the only thing Charles had to deal with, he would be wasting his time by replying to them.

However, they promulgate their intellectually dishonest constructs to their minions, and worse, devalue the dynamics working against shared goals of LGF and AS, which is to work against Islamic extremism.

I have to leave now and appreciate the challenge. I regret not being able to conclude this debate.

Aloha, BigPapa.

PS. Please take up your points with Geller and Spencer. I'd love to see what they have to say about this.

321

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:21:54am

re: #247 Charles

Charles: See how easy it is to get underneath people's skin just by ignoring them? After all I've apparently gotten underneath three commentor's skins simply by not responding to them. (Comments 305, 309, 310, 313, to name a few.)

Not to suggest that this was my intent. But it is an interesting side effect to getting off the merry-go-round early and staying above the fray.

322

debutaunt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:22:46am

re: #307 William Woody

Would it add to my reputation if I answered every ad-hominem attack made in my direction?

Or, put it another way: do you seriously believe, based on how I've comported myself in this thread thus far, that I'm aligned with and supportive of the European neo-NAZI movement?

How can you compare some nic (William Woody) to Charles and his highly valued Blog?

323

William Woody Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:23:19am

re: #320 BigPapa

I've tried with Spencer. Geller, I personally find a little not to my own taste.

324

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:23:25am

re: #320 BigPapa

PS. Please take up your points with Geller and Spencer. I'd love to see what they have to say about this.

It's amazing the number of people who think it's Charles' responsibility to end this. Of course, if they'd just quit hanging with fascists, there would be no need to point out their associates. Nor did Charles start this. The burden is on the other parties involved.

325

solomonpanting Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:25:18am

re: #321 William Woody

But it is an interesting side effect to getting off the merry-go-round early and staying above the fray.

OTOH, silence may be construed as consent.

326

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:25:59am

re: #321 William Woody

Gotten underneath our skins? Hardly.

We've given you the opportunity to cogently defend your positions. You choose not to. That defines quite well where you stand and that you aren't above trolling.

327

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:26:25am

re: #316 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

AG, I know you value truth, so please don't put selective blinders on even though it might hurt. Do some more looking into the synchronicity of the Serbia/Armenia background in that Paleo corner of the right wing friend. You'll find multiple connects to Raimondo, Rockwell, Ron Paul, Buchanan, Taki, Epstein and others if you do serious searching. The alliance was there all along, it's just been under the covers in the past. With Weyrich dead there's none to keep a lid on the creepie crawler box.

328

GeicoGecko Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:26:51am

re: #306 Walter L. Newton

Sometimes fuck wad.

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?
Do you eat with that mouth?

Garbage mouth!

You are probably a tailgating road rager as well.

I may have to think twice about offering you that safe driver discount.

329

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:27:26am

re: #317 Killgore Trout

Ah, thank you very much. Then it's pretty clear that Spencer and Melanie Phillips are lying by using this picture to dismiss it.....
Strache: A limp-handed Nazi salute?

The fingers and thumb form the Lebensrune?

330

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:27:27am

re: #317 Killgore Trout

Ah, thank you very much. Then it's pretty clear that Spencer and Melanie Phillips are lying by using this picture to dismiss it.....
Strache: A limp-handed Nazi salute?

Ahem.
I don't think Melanie Phillips is 'lying' - she is not dismissing Strache as not being a neonazi because of that photo.
Please read her original article here.

It is Spencer, in his article (the one you linked, who is ever so subtly trying to diss Melanie Phillips.

331

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:30:14am

re: #321 William Woody

Charles: See how easy it is to get underneath people's skin just by ignoring them? After all I've apparently gotten underneath three commentor's skins simply by not responding to them. (Comments 305, 309, 310, 313, to name a few.)

Not to suggest that this was my intent. But it is an interesting side effect to getting off the merry-go-round early and staying above the fray.

Woody, you haven't gotten under my anything. Go look at my profile. I've been on LGFa LONG time and you are far from important. I've had much better arguments with some of our 12 year old Lizards.

Gosh, your evident over importance is just dripping out of your comments. A very good sign that you think so highly of yourself that you are incapable of seeing the forset for the trees.

Yes, you ARE a tacit support of Euro-nationalist, Neo_nazi's type thinking and it is people like you who, in the least, sat along the sidelines and watched the Nazi's over run Europe while sitting on your asses in the cafe's and complaining that the street are too crowded with tanks.

332

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:31:29am

The question I'd really like to have answered is- what is it about spencer and geller that made the nazis want to have them come and speak?

333

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:31:29am

re: #331 Walter L. Newton

Woody, I was just looking over my comment 331. Terrible spelling and composition. It's about time for you to change the subject and comment on my structure.

334

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:32:32am

re: #330 yma o hyd

It is Spencer, in his article (the one you linked, who is ever so subtly trying to diss Melanie Phillips.

Ah, you're right. I had too many windows open this morning and I misunderstood Spencer's point. Melanie Phillips is the one using a different picture to dismiss the salute, Spencer even notes that in his article.
However, we still have evidence that Stache (pictured here with Dewinter and Beisicht) was busted giving a Nazi salute.

335

[deleted] Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:33:54am

336

Andrew Brehm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:34:23am

I could have sworn that I just posted three replies, in German, in the comments section of PI-News.net.

They appear to have vanished.

I am posting from Israel.

In my three replies I pointed out to PI-News, in German, that accusing Charles of lying is ridiculous, as he didn't make the picture and didn't refer to the protesters but the two loonies shaking hands, that Pro-Koelln was once very much against Israel, as explained in this LGF post above, and that PI-News owes Charles an apology.

I also referred to the "blog war" as one against Charles rather than one waged by Charles.

For what it's worth, I am totally on LGF's side. I am not important though. I have a small blog myself with a few stories from my trip to Iraq and some articles on Israeli history, and that's it. :-)

Thank you, Charles, for keeping me informed about all those things the media "forget" to write about and for not giving in to the Muslim-hating radicals.

337

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:34:51am

re: #304 gegenkritik

Here.
Back at this time, the Kühnen-salute was quite common among the far-right. This salute was inventend by German Neonazi Michael Kühnen, as the original Nazi-salute is illegal in Germany and Austria (today, the Kühnen-salute is also illegal).

This is the one I should have quoted... the fingers and thumb form the Lebensrune? (Voorpost symbol,)

338

[deleted] Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:35:17am

339

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:36:19am

re: #335 hogsbreath

Bye now! You take care.

340

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:37:52am

re: #336 Leauki

I could have sworn that I just posted three replies, in German, in the comments section of PI-News.net.

They appear to have vanished.

I am posting from Israel.

In my three replies I pointed out to PI-News, in German, that accusing Charles of lying is ridiculous, as he didn't make the picture and didn't refer to the protesters but the two loonies shaking hands, that Pro-Koelln was once very much against Israel, as explained in this LGF post above, and that PI-News owes Charles an apology.

The mistake you're making is in assuming that the people who run pi-news.net are actually interested in the truth. They're not. Their purpose is the same as Spencer's and Geller's -- divert attention to insignificant issues to keep people from seeing their fascist sympathies.

341

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:38:08am

re: #336 Leauki

You should link your blog to your name under your profile, it sounds interesting.

342

Athos Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:38:24am

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

And Charles has some control on what CAIR publishes?

Another mole / sockpuppet gets the stick.

HogsBreath

This user is blocked.

Registered since: Dec 31, 2004 at 1:29 pm
No. of comments posted: 6
No. of links posted: 0

343

Walter L. Newton Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:39:26am

re: #342 Athos

BBIAB - hey Athos, mind the trolls while I am gone, I have to get ready for the theatre, work awaits.

344

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:40:10am

The link I posted above goes to Voorpost Charles, it's their store where you can see Were Di pubs. You might not want it here so I reported myself.

345

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:40:25am

re: #337 Thanos

That's interesting.

346

Killgore Trout Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:41:49am

re: #344 Thanos

I'm trying to get used to linking to questionable stuff through google cache. Unfortunately you can't do that with autotranslated stuff.

347

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:41:59am

Again, folks -- please do not "quote" comments that look like they're ripe for deletion.

Use the 'reply' button instead, and then your comment won't also need to be deleted.

I expect more of this kind of stuff, because Spencer and Geller are doing their best to incite their rabid drones to attack.

348

Ayatollah Ghilmeini Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:43:35am

re: #327 Thanos

This is in reply to Sharmuta too.

I looked in the Jastras connection you mentioned. By Spencer's own admission, Jastras is on the board at Jihadwatch. I would not associate with Jastras. Balkan nationalist politics fathered WWI and WWII and nearly brought Europe to war again in 1998.

It is clear that Spencer's common interests with Jastras are opposition to radical Islamist Albanians of Kosovo. Do the Serb Nationalist groups work with the Vlaam Bloc? I do not know. Again, I would stay away from such folks, Spencer is OK with them. During WWII ethnic serbs were mostly allied against Hitler under Tito. The Croats and Albanians all fought under Hitler's banner. I am unsure as to where and what current alliances exist today. After all, we know Hitler was allied with the Muslim Brotherhood in WWII; I don't think he had Islamic emigration to Europe as part of his grand vision for Europe.

349

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:44:00am

re: #334 Killgore Trout

Ah, you're right. I had too many windows open this morning and I misunderstood Spencer's point. Melanie Phillips is the one using a different picture to dismiss the salute, Spencer even notes that in his article.
However, we still have evidence that Stache (pictured here with Dewinter and Beisicht) was busted giving a Nazi salute.

Yep - absolutely.
They can fiddle with their salutes, it doesn't change one thing about their despicable politics.

I just was compelled to check because I'd never associate Melanie Phillips, of all people, with enabling nazis.
Unlike Spencer, she knows exactly where the lines are drawn!

350

westwind Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:46:01am

[Ed. note: this account has been blocked.]

German blogs comment about your photoshop work - have a look here:

original pic was taken June 19, 2008 in Bruxelles [Link: www.pro-koeln-online.de...]

351

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:47:13am

re: #348 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

This is in reply to Sharmuta too.

I looked in the Jastras connection you mentioned. By Spencer's own admission, Jastras is on the board at Jihadwatch. I would not associate with Jastras. Balkan nationalist politics fathered WWI and WWII and nearly brought Europe to war again in 1998.

It is clear that Spencer's common interests with Jastras are opposition to radical Islamist Albanians of Kosovo. Do the Serb Nationalist groups work with the Vlaam Bloc? I do not know. Again, I would stay away from such folks, Spencer is OK with them. During WWII ethnic serbs were mostly allied against Hitler under Tito. The Croats and Albanians all fought under Hitler's banner. I am unsure as to where and what current alliances exist today. After all, we know Hitler was allied with the Muslim Brotherhood in WWII; I don't think he had Islamic emigration to Europe as part of his grand vision for Europe.

Yes and no. There aren't direct connections that I find recently, but during the '90s Voorpost and other Flemish nationalist orgs recruited people to support Serbia during those wars.

352

Sharmuta Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:47:14am

re: #348 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

The Serbs also fought with the nazis, and actually, it was in Albania where the Jews were protected, and the Jewish population actually increased during WWII.

353

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:49:23am

re: #350 westwind

German blogs comment about your photoshop work - have a look here:

original pic was taken June 19, 2008 in Bruxelles [Link: www.pro-koeln-online.de...]

Excuse me -- that was NOT "my" Photoshop work. I did NOT alter that photograph. The link is right above, in my post. I suggest you read it.

354

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:50:09am

My prediction from last night comes true, they are using the Psyops defense! :)

Immidiately after publishing the names of Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Paul Belien and Lars Hergaard as guests of the new Anti-Islamizationconference in Cologne, the lobbyists of german dhimmy-parties and extrem leftwing groups startet a psychological warfare attack: pro Cologne - so the leftwing propaganda - are neonazis, has contacts to neonazis! The truth couldn’t be farer away: The german Neonazi-Szene attack pro cologne as “zionists”, as “men of the system”. The prominent german Neonazi-Party NPD attacked pro Cologne too and declared pro Cologne to the “main enemy”.

355

Petra Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:50:34am

"177 Wild Knight 4/25/09 10:23:58 am

....revealed the curiously-shaped "Celtic" Cross which has become the emblem of most European fascist parties. This is the cross, the one next to the Swastika: Fascist Cross."

Your picture shows a "sun cross".

356

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:50:50am

Here they come.

westwind
Registered since: Aug 16, 2008 at 1:28 pm
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0

357

Randall Gross Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:51:42am

re: #350 westwind

First post an outright baldfaced lie = blocked account

358

cagney Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:02:01pm

re: #180 yma o hyd

Thanks Yma.

You become numb against the utterly despicable and utterly gutless actions of the (UK) government but this action has totally boiled my blood and filled me so full of hatred towards them. They let in every deadbeat and Muslim terrorist yet bar guid folk who have performed selfless duty to Queen and country? Words can never describe how I feel so we will leave it at that.

I don't think non-UK citizens can sign the petition. I would be grateful if folk from outside the UK could google and understand how much the Ghurka's mean to us in the UK and post a comment on the youtube page:

Youtube Video

359

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Yes, nice catch. It's tough for us Americans to remember all the obscure European political parties.

Well, the NF is obscure. The FN sadly isn't.

360

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:06:28pm

re: #336 Leauki

PI-news once started as a nice, conservative little blog. While growing, they became the target of really nasty attacks from the media, leftists, muslims. Under this heavy pressure, they went more extreme, allying with really bad people.
They often have visiting writers, one of them was publishing a really ugly article, where he was agitating with an anti-semitic undertone against Ilya Ehrenburg. When it turned out that the author of the article also linked to websites that promoted Holocaust-denial, I critizised this. PI-News did not delete the entry of their author, but my comments/account. Others made similar experiences.

361

yma o hyd Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:11:22pm

re: #358 cagney

I've been extremely angry all day, ever since I read the reports about the way rthe NuLab government is treating the Gurkhas.
Those 'new rules' are beyond belief, as Joanna Lumley has made clear.

I think anybody can sign the petition - its good if the get lots of signatures. They have a tick box, so if they want to show only UK signatures, they can sort them easily.

Thanks for posting the link and the video.

362

zuckerlilly Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:14:26pm

Charles,

the photo you picked from the fascist web site (Patriotisches Forum Sueddeutschland) must be photo shopped. The protesters in the background are lefties from the far left scene. Those fascist idiots were to stupid to realize it. ;-) Originally the photo was probably from this anti-pro-Koeln website.

363

Irish Rose Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:16:31pm

Nothing but a distraction, Charles.

This is the way that Pamela always deals with the people who criticise her, including me... distortions, exaggerations, lies, libel, slander, deliberate misrepresentations and character assassination. She has a nice facade, but on the inside she's an ugly, angry, vicious individual with some very serious issues.

It's no wonder she and Spencer get along so well, they're two small pieces of shit from the same big shitpile.

364

jvic Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:19:04pm

re: #274 Charles

Where is the denial that he's going to attend the meeting?

re: #267 Ayatollah Ghilmeini
From Spencer's email last night:

This is false, I have not confirmed that I am going to speak in Cologne, and I have no ties to neo-Nazis.

Could the man be more clear?

I see a denial that he confirmed it...

****************
To belabor the point: Sherman said

If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve.

(Or words to that unmistakable effect.) He did not say:

I have not confirmed that I will run if nominated; I have not confirmed that I will serve if elected.

It seems easy for Spencer to clear up any ambiguity about his (past and current) plans regarding Cologne.

365

Petra Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:30:37pm

re: #362 zuckerlilly

Charles,

the photo you picked from the fascist web site (Patriotisches Forum Sueddeutschland) must be photo shopped. The protesters in the background are lefties from the far left scene. Those fascist idiots were to stupid to realize it. ;-) Originally the photo was probably from this anti-pro-Koeln website.

I had a quick read at that site and it looks like they're gearing up for mass-blockades against the conference.

366

Ojoe Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:41:21pm

re: #226 Ojoe

Oops, Arrr is right and I was wrong.

Here is the actual W. Churchill quote:

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

367

zuckerlilly Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:43:00pm

re: #365 Petra

I had a quick read at that site and it looks like they're gearing up for mass-blockades against the conference.

Look at the date. This was for the last year "conference" (2008). The site hasn't been updated since December 2008.

368

Ojoe Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:48:11pm

re: #177 Wild Knight

I wish the neo-fascists would drop that cross + circle symbol, because the real ones are hauntingly beautiful.

I would not mind one on my own grave.

Ancient Celtic cross.

369

Andrew Brehm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:48:18pm

re: #341 Thanos

You should link your blog to your name under your profile, it sounds interesting.

Thank you.

I didn't want to link to it because my intention was not to bring attention to my blog but to explain what it means when I say that I support LGF.

My two blogs can be found via Google. I won't link to them.

370

Andrew Brehm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:55:13pm

re: #340 Charles

The mistake you're making is in assuming that the people who run pi-news.net are actually interested in the truth. They're not. Their purpose is the same as Spencer's and Geller's -- divert attention to insignificant issues to keep people from seeing their fascist sympathies.

I read PI-News regularly. Their reports and opinions helped me a lot in January, when so many were attacking the Jews and Israel.

I have seen them allied with the Spencer types before but it was this sudden attack against you that I found interesting. That my comments disappeared (if they have) is also quite interesting.

I will continue to read PI but be careful. Their anti-Albanian stance is also worrying me.

PI see the world as Muslim vs non-Muslim, I see the same conflict as Muslim and Christian and Jews and other normal people vs terrorists and Nazis.

A proud Bedouin IDF soldier defending Israel is worth more than an anti-Islam activist; and I refuse to denounce the many Muslims who fought and died for Israel (and Kurdistan) as our "enemies" just because they are not Christians or Jews.

371

Andrew Brehm Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:57:17pm

re: #360 gegenkritik

PI-news once started as a nice, conservative little blog. While growing, they became the target of really nasty attacks from the media, leftists, muslims. Under this heavy pressure, they went more extreme, allying with really bad people.
They often have visiting writers, one of them was publishing a really ugly article, where he was agitating with an anti-semitic undertone against Ilya Ehrenburg. When it turned out that the author of the article also linked to websites that promoted Holocaust-denial, I critizised this. PI-News did not delete the entry of their author, but my comments/account. Others made similar experiences.

Yes, that's pretty much how I perceived the story.

I liked their German patriotic stances. It was refreshing to see good German patriotism for once. But they do have a tendency to ally with German _nationalists_ which is quite a different breed.

372

debutaunt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:00:58pm

re: #366 Ojoe

Oops, Arrr is right and I was wrong.

Here is the actual W. Churchill quote:

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

It's a great quote.

373

Gus Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:09:49pm

While we are on the topic of image here are some from the pro-Koeln site itself. The first being the larger image which it the topic of the article.

Filip DeWinter of Vlaams Belang and Markus Beisicht

Filip DeWinter of Vlaams Belang and Markus Beisicht group photo.

Markus Beisicht with unidentified man. Vlaams Belang poster in background.

Markus Beisicht seated with Manfred Rouhs speaking.

374

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:26:13pm

re: #221 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I maintain the Vlaams folks are having a bit of laugh at our expense

Hmmm... I'm not sure I like "Vlaams" as short-hand for these (I'm censoring myself) #¤%#¤. That's the Dutch word for Flemish, and while VB has been doing much too well in elections, I know lots of nice Flemish people who are probably not laughing at our expense ;).

375

Catttt Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:27:22pm

re: #368 Ojoe

I wish the neo-fascists would drop that cross + circle symbol, because the real ones are hauntingly beautiful.

I would not mind one on my own grave.

Ancient Celtic cross.

I agree. I have a large one in my living room. OK, so I got it at an after Halloween sale at Target, and it says RIP at the bottom. It looks like stone, and I'm Irish Catholic, and I like it, dammit.

376

JHW Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:30:53pm

I was trying to identify the woman Kilgore mentioned, no luck, but I came up with this, more than strange. Jobbik, Movement for a Better Hungary,

Besides its declarations regarded as anti-gipsy by the party’s critics, the name of Jobbik is associated with bringing up the notion of gipsy crime used before the change of regime. On account of its website created specially for this purpose as well as its activities “insulting to the honour of the gipsy community in Hungary and suitable for arousing hatred, for instigation, for incitement against the community”, the National Gipsy Self-government held a demonstration outside the party headquarters, and laid an information against Jobbik....
In London on 16 May 2008 the delegation of Jobbik's Committee of Foreign Affairs met with Nick Griffin, chairman of the British National Party. They discussed cooperation between the two parties, and the elections for the European Parliament. Griffin spoke at the party rally in August 2008, while former vice-president Zoltan Füzessy is presently resident in Gravesend, Kent, England.[1]

From their own website, a photo of their leader wearing a keffiyeh Your text to link..., scroll down a bit, with this,

Krisztina Morvai filed a lawsuit with the Hungarian Supreme Court against the leaders and military commanders of Israel accusing them of crimes against humanity.Ms. Morvai, a professor of law at the Budapest University (ELTE) cited several sections of the international and Hungarian law that the leaders and military commander of Israel violated.

They have their own, black-clad paramilitary unit. Take a good look.
Hungarian Guard March Against Roma [Gypsy] Crime

377

wildcat Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:37:13pm

[Ed. note: this account has been blocked.]

Using fauxtograohpy to smear Pamala Geller - nice! Pamala Geller, the neo nazi - right! Glen Beck - too! Lets smear Glen Beck. We can take something Beck says out of context and hammer Beck. We can find some nut, who likes Beck, and marry the nut to Beck. Good idea!

We can make them look bad and make us look good. Just like Obama releasing the photos of "torture".

We can smear Rush, Hannity, Coulter, Ingrahm, Levin, everybody that doesn't behave like Meghan McCain.

/it is time to apologize

378

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:43:21pm

re: #377 wildcat

it is time to apologize

I hope you aren't holding your breath. Bye now!

379

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:47:48pm

re: #276 gegenkritik

There are also several reports (unfortunately, most of them are very ugly leftist Antifa-sites) about pro-Köln's demonstrations at around 2001/2002

I found a reference to this in this Verfassungschutz-report: [Link: www.im.nrw.de...]

That one - at least - can hardly be dismissed as "very ugly leftist Antifa-sites". I read German well enough, but a translation would be risky, so here's a quote in German:

Die maßgeblich von Mitgliedern der rechtsextremistischen 'Deutschen Liga für Volk und Heimat' (DLVH) getragene 'Bürgerbewegung Pro Köln e.V.' führte am 9. März 2002 in Köln-Chorweiler eine Kundgebung unter dem Motto "Keine Freiheit für die Feinde der Freiheit" durch. Die Kundgebung richtete sich gegen das Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz. Im Vorfeld der Veranstaltung beschuldigte Manfred Rouhs, Vorstandsmitglied von 'Pro Köln' und Herausgeber der Publikation 'Signal', den Verfassungsschutz, die parlamentarische Demokratie auszuhebeln. Er warf dem Verfassungsschutz vor, "seine Schergen" hätten den Überfall an der KZ-Gedenkstätte Kemna durchgeführt. Dies brachte Rouhs eine Strafanzeige des Bundesamtes für Verfassungsschutz wegen Verleumdung, übler Nachrede und Beleidigung ein.

An der Kundgebung nahmen circa 100 Personen teil. 70 bis 80% der Kundgebungsteilnehmer stammten aus der nordrhein-westfälischen Neonazi-Szene. So hatten im Vorfeld auch das neonazistische 'Aktionsbüro Norddeutschland' und das gleichfalls neonazistische 'NIT-Rheinland' zur Teilnahme aufgerufen. Unter anderen nahmen die prominenten nordrhein-westfälischen Neonazis Christian Malcoci, Siegfried Borchardt und Daniela Wegener teil. Die führenden 'Pro Köln'-Mitglieder Manfred Rouhs und Markus Beisicht hielten auf der Kundgebung Reden, in denen heftige Kritik am Verfassungsschutz geübt wurde. So wurde behauptet, dass der Rechtsstaat verraten werde und heutzutage ein Wähler nicht mehr wisse, ob ein PDS- oder ein NPDSpitzenkandidat nicht in Wahrheit ein Verfassungsschutz-Mann sei. Gefahr gehe nicht von den Rändern, sondern vom Zentrum der Regierung aus.

Weitere Rednerin war die ehemalige Landesvorsitzende des 'Bundes freier Bürger' (BfB), Hilde Hülsmeyer. Als Rednerin trat auch die Aktivistin
aus der Sauerländer Neonazi-Szene Daniela Wegener auf. Bemerkenswert ist, dass 'Pro Köln', die sich gern konservativ-bürgerlich gibt, wie dies auch der Ende 2000 aufgelöste BfB tat, keinerlei Berührungsängste zu Neonazis hat.

Hopefully, you can translate the relevant parts :)

380

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:54:06pm

Oh, and the report also notes:

Die "Antisemitismus-Debatte" wurde auch von 'Pro Köln' aufgegriffen. Offenbar in der Absicht, Medienaufmerksamkeit zu erzielen, gab 'Pro Köln' in einer Interneteinstellung vom 27. Mai 2002 für ihre Anhänger eine Wahlempfehlung zugunsten der FDP ab. Es hieß dort: "Deutlicher als Herr Möllemann hätten auch wir unsere Kritik am arroganten Auftreten eines Michel Friedman nicht formulieren können." Das Angebot an die FDP, die Partei beim Bundestagswahlkampf zu unterstützen, nahm 'Pro Köln' aber am 6. Juni 2002 im Internet wieder zurück, da "Jürgen Möllemann im Streit mit dem Zentralrat der Juden eingeknickt" sei.

381

Sacred Plants Sat, Apr 25, 2009 2:27:39pm

I would not be surprised if it turned out that Beisicht made this fauxtography himself, for the purpose of deliberate confusion.

See Mein Kampf:

The fact that we had chosen red as the colour for our posters sufficed to attract them to our meetings. The ordinary bourgeoisie were veryshocked to see that, we had also chosen the symbolic red of Bolshevism and they regarded this as something ambiguously significant. The suspicion was whispered in German Nationalist circles that we also were merely another variety of Marxism, perhaps even Marxists suitably
disguised, or better still, Socialists. The actual difference between Socialism and Marxism still remains a mystery to these people up to this day. The charge of Marxism was conclusively proved when it was discovered that at our meetings we deliberately substituted the words 'Fellow-countrymen and Women' for 'Ladies and Gentlemen' and addressed each other as 'Party Comrade'. We used to roar with laughter at these silly faint-hearted bourgeoisie and their efforts to puzzle out our origin, our intentions and our aims.

We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation, our intention being to irritate the Left, so as to arouse their attention and tempt them to come to our meetings--if only in order to break them up--so that in this way we got a chance of talking to the people.

Which he does.

382

Tamron Sat, Apr 25, 2009 2:51:10pm

re: #93 Simply Me

I have been up dinging the comments that point out how to recognize the photoshopping. I do understand that the main point of this thread is that the handshake is real and the background doesn't matter. But I also appreciate this thread as a case study in how to pick out the evidence of photoshopping.

I'm no novice with PhotoShop, so what immediately caught my eye was the too-crisp line of a 'hard edge' around the outside of their images in photo #2. It would have been easy for a true PhotoShopper to make that hard edge just a bit fuzzy (I won't tell just how it's done), but they didn't. The men appear to have been cloned into photo #2 from photo #1, and then the 'dodge' tool was used to brighten them up just a bit.

Photo #1 doesn't have the above-mentioned hard edge, but did you notice the shadow from the face of the man on the right, which is falling on his left shoulder? There is no evidence in the remainder of photo #1 that it was a sunny day, nor was there any sun shining on anything in the background and thus casting a shadow.

Photo #1 is suspect, and photo #2 is a downright fake.
.

383

gegenkritik Sat, Apr 25, 2009 2:58:55pm

re: #380 oslogin
Thanks, I didn't knew about this. A rough translation of this part of the report:

The debate [1] on anti-semitism was also picked up by pro-Köln. With the intention to gain attention from the media, pro-Köln gave an endorsement to their supporters in the Internet at the 27th May 2002 to vote the FDP. It was stated there that "Even we could not express our critique of Friedman's arrogance more clearly than Mr. Möllemann did". The offer to support the FDP for the German federal elections was withdrawn by pro-Köln in the Internet at 6th June 2002 because "Möllemann recoiled in the conflict before the Central Council of Jews".

[1] This debate occured before the elections 2002, when FDP's Jürgen Möllemann tried to gain votes with anti-Israeli comments. He was critizised for that by Michel Friedman (at this time vice-president of the Central Council of Jews), which led to an intense debate, culminating in Möllemann's publishment of an anti-semitic flyer, demonizing Friedman and Ariel Sharon.

384

lostlakehiker Sat, Apr 25, 2009 2:59:52pm

re: #273 Charles

I have to object to this characterization. I didn't "fall for" anything. The photo shows what it shows -- the background is completely beside the point, which is that DeWinter and Beisicht are associates. And the unaltered photograph does absolutely nothing to change that point.

If I'd seen image #1 without being forewarned it was a fake, I'd have thought it was authentic from top to bottom. It doesn't shriek of fakery to my untrained eye. In that sense, I'd have "fallen" for it. And that was the sense I had in mind---you surely wouldn't have posted image #1 as proof of anything had you spotted that the background was forensically inconsistent with the foreground.

The authentic photograph proves your point very nicely.

385

Lynn B. Sat, Apr 25, 2009 3:03:29pm

re: #382 Tamron

You might want to read through the rest of the thread, esp. #185, #204 and #256.

386

[deleted] Sat, Apr 25, 2009 3:33:35pm

387

Charles Johnson Sat, Apr 25, 2009 3:42:09pm

Bye now! Take care.

388

Øyvind Strømmen Sat, Apr 25, 2009 4:09:59pm

re: #383 gegenkritik

Did not know the backstory there, I have to say, although I think I have some faint recollection of the debate. The other part I quoted from the report seemed more relevant, mentioning several alleged neo-Nazis taking part in a Pro Köln-event.

Amongst those mentioned as speakers: Daniela Wegener from the quite openly Neo-Nazi "Freien Kameradschaften" and "Sauerländer Aktionsfront". According to the German wikipedia, she has been the organiser of a march celebrating Rudolf Hess. She's been running for elections on an NPD list, too, if I am not mistaken.

On Rouhs: he founded the magazine Europa vorn in 1988. A bit of research reveals that the magazine printed articles by for instance Alain de Benoist, Armin Mohler and Robert Steuckers. For those unfamiliar with the European far right scene: this is even further right, see:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

389

CarlKopp Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:44:11pm

If you copy the photos into a JPG file, and open them up with the Windows Photo-gallery so that you can zoomed in on them, you can see that the lower photo is the photo-shopped one.

You can view the areas bordering the two people, and see the pixelation at the edges (perticularly in the sky above their heads, and in the space between them at the lower portion of the picture. The sleeve of the man on the right, where his sleeve meets his waist, there is a small notch and uneven pixelation along the edge of his sleeve.

You don't see the same uneven pixelation in the picture of them on front of the demonstration.

390

Sacred Plants Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:15:57am

It appears DeWinter and Beisicht shook hands in front of a chroma key.

391

iceman1960 Sun, Apr 26, 2009 3:42:02am

Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in for what it's worth.
I work with photoshop all day long and have since photoshop first came out... it's my job.
The bottom photo has obviously been shopped. When enlarged you can see the unnatural blend of pixels especially where the background shows through the gap in this Markus guys arm. Whomever shopped it was probably using the blurring tool to hide hard egdes from clipping. I'd bet money on it.

Spy Mode Auto

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