Rebranding Hate in the Age of Obama

US News • Views: 3,785

Here’s a cheerful little bedtime story, about the increasingly successful efforts of neo-Nazis and far right racist organizations to conceal their true purposes and re-enter the mainstream by exploiting populist anger: Rebranding Hate in the Age of Obama.

It’s not about hate, it’s about love. Love of white people. That’s the message in songs, speeches and casual conversation during a weekend retreat in Zinc, Ark., sponsored by the Christian Revival Center and the Knights Party, an offshoot of the Ku Klux Klan. There’s no overt threat of violence here. No cross burnings (or “lightings,” as the KKK prefers to call them). The only fire at the grassy compound, located at the end of a long, rocky road circled by turkey vultures, is a bonfire for the Knights youth corps to roast their s’mores. The kids draw pictures of white-hooded Klanspeople and sing songs about the oppressed Aryan race; rousing sermons are read from Bibles decorated with Confederate flags. Aryan souvenirs are for sale, including baseball caps proclaiming IT’S LOVE, NOT HATE and advertising THE ORIGINAL BOYZ IN THE HOOD.

This would all be funny (Jon Stewart, where are you?) if it weren’t so disturbing. “Do you know why people are so afraid of us?” asks Thomas Robb, the soft-spoken national director—don’t call him grand wizard!—of the Knights. “Because we’re so normal.” In his speeches, Robb is more likely to make a joke about his short stature than he is about minorities. His Web site includes careful statements about nonviolence, green energy and women’s rights. But among his ideological kin, Robb equates minorities to fleas and favors a program for “voluntary resettlement” to home countries. Illegal immigrants, as well as blacks serving time in prison, should be deported, he says. “Why is it that when a black man wants to preserve his culture and heritage it’s a good thing, and when a white person wants the same thing, we’re called haters?” he says.

Some of the roughly 50 attendees at the Arkansas lovefest wear Knights uniforms with Confederate flags and, along with their children, raise their arms “Heil, Hitler”–style to shouts of “white power!” Robb sometimes dons his white robe and hood and doesn’t see why that carries any baggage: “Why do judges wear robes? It’s tradition.” The Klan’s past is misunderstood, he insists—no history of brutal lynchings, torture and intimidation; it’s gotten a bad name from, for example, federal provocateurs who instigated violence. While Robb questions the authority of other Klan groups, he happily notes that “a rising tide lifts all ships.”

It’s hard to conduct accurate surveys of racists, who tend to exaggerate their strength and importance. But it’s fair to say that in the Age of Obama, there’s growing concern. This spring, the Southern Poverty Law Center released its annual “Year in Hate” report, which outlines that in 2008 the number of hate groups rose to 926, up 4 percent from 2007, and 54 percent since 2000. (The SPLC doesn’t measure the number of members in the groups.) An April Homeland Security intelligence report states that “the economic downturn and the election of the first African-American president present unique drivers for right-wing radicalization and recruitment.” Home foreclosures, unemployment and an inability to obtain credit “could create a fertile recruiting environment,” the briefing adds, and extremist groups are aiming to “broaden their scope and appeal through propaganda.” The haters are doing their best, in other words, to move out from the fringe and toward the mainstream—and they’re boasting some success.

Indoctrination often starts on the Internet. Some crazies posting on MySpace, for instance, have called for armed revolution; at least one has referred to Barack Obama as “a dead man.” But many leaders of white-supremacist groups and Web forums are toning down their rhetoric. The aim is to attract the kind of person Robb describes as “the guy down the road who until now had his plasma TV and car in the garage, but just lost his job and won’t find a new one because some illegal already has it.”

Don Black, a 56-year-old former KKK grand wizard, says he no longer has any formal affiliation with the Klan because “it just got so demonized and attracted the wrong people; it just got to be impossible.” But that doesn’t mean he’s given up the struggle. As the founder of Stormfront.org, he has the white-supremacist world at his fingertips, all from the comfort of his West Palm Beach, Fla., home. Last spring Black made it a policy for the site to “have no swastikas and Third Reich symbols to turn off first-time visitors.”

A former associate of Don Black sent me a death threat last year, and tried to find out where I live so he could post my address at his hate site, so this article has a special resonance for me.

Read the whole thing…

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303 comments
1 Shug  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:09:29pm

These people remind me of the apes in 2001: A Space Odyssey

2 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:10:18pm

What's really disturbing is the affiliations and associations- that certain people in the blogosphere seem to not notice these connections, but whitewash them instead as to better help these haters mainstream themselves.

3 kahall  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:10:49pm

I really need tucked in now. Arkansas is just ....right over there....from here.

4 Shug  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:11:18pm

As a white person I am embarrased to share a demograhic with these pieces of shit.

GET OFF MY DEMOGRAPHIC!

5 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:11:21pm

HOT SHOWER! HOT SHOWER!

/from an old, old episode of SP...

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:11:23pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

What's really disturbing is the affiliations and associations- that certain people in the blogosphere seem to not notice these connections, but whitewash them instead as to better help these haters mainstream themselves.

They're doing it right now at the end of the previous thread.

7 solomonpanting  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:13:52pm
the increasingly successful efforts of neo-Nazis and far right racist organizations

Their "party" mascot should be a pig---the other white meat.

8 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:15:55pm

re: #6 Charles

The right has an opportunity here to distinguish itself from leftist policies, and instead they're busy marginalizing themselves by taking it to extremes.

Very sad.

9 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:16:00pm

On the other side of the coin:

AP is now running pictures of World Can't Wait Maoist cult members wearing orange jumpsuits as the illustration for the current top-of-the-news story about Dems wanting to prosecute Bush officials for waterboarding. Without discussing or identifying who WCW even are.

It's the successful mainstreaming of extreme leftism coming into conflict with the attempted-but-failed mainstreaming of extreme rightism.

And here I am (everybody sing along -- you know the rest of the sentence) stuck in the middle with you.

10 Shug  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:16:16pm

These people disgust me for so many reasons.

One of which is they make me takes sides with the Southern Poverty Law Center on an issue

11 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:17:05pm

re: #8 Sharmuta

It seems, then, that this will be the image of conservatism that my generation will grow into full-on adulthood (teens and young-adults as we are now), both in America and in Europe at the least.

12 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:18:05pm

Haven't read the article yet but immediately thought of the European re-branding of extremist groups: Vlaams Belang, Pro-Koeln, and the BNP. Considering the background of the top members of Pro-Koeln for example with their direct links to the NDP and other European fascist backgrounds. They were essentially forced into re-branding by the German authorities.

The Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC and aka Country Club Clan) was essentially a re-branded form since the onset of that group. As we've seen many of these groups are well connected with their European counterparts and have learned what appears to have been a successful tactic by fascist groups in Europe which is to remodel the image of their groups on many fronts.

13 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:18:07pm

re: #9 zombie

Wasn't their organization named because the World Couldn't Wait for Bush to Resign?

There is some twisted humor in such newfound redundancy.

14 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:19:08pm

re: #11 laZardo

A lot can happen in the next few years, but it's highly disturbing that the fringe is making this move. I guess it's not surprising they'd seize this opportunity, but it is unnerving that people aren't stepping up to denounce these folks. It's like LGF is a lone voice in the wilderness right now.

15 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:20:38pm

There is also this strange collectivist mindset popping up at this time where the right seems to think it has to walk in lockstep with other members of the right- even if that member (coulter, beck, etc.) are completely wrong. That's more damaging than I can say. We DO NOT need to be lock-steppers like the left.

16 kahall  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:20:43pm

Back around Christmas I was at a local Wal-Mart and there were some Nazi's sticking fliers on cars. Some BS about woman's safety. How could you not be embarrassed acting like that?

17 solomonpanting  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:21:30pm
Winston Smith, a host of the white-supremacist radio show "The Political Cesspool" in Millington, Tenn., says, "The emphasis is different now. We don't talk as much about what blacks have done to us; we're more focused on ourselves and our own culture."

They certainly have learned well. Now they're a victim class.

18 lostlakehiker  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:21:52pm
Last spring Black made it a policy for the site to “have no swastikas and Third Reich symbols to turn off first-time visitors.”

That's for later, right? Salad and cheese first, then the main course.

Bah!

19 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:22:12pm

re: #14 Sharmuta

I'm going to flat out say that as much as I disagree with some of Obama's policies, that this is more like a "revealing their true face" sort of moment. It's why I didn't downding that one comment by that "Glock2Spell" chap, and why I'm starting to think that LGF would do well to move a little more to the center to stay somewhat relevant.

A tree falls in the forest but nobody hears it. Did it ever fall at all?

20 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:22:19pm

These are EXACTLY the sorts of people who keep right-leaning democrats in the democrat camp instead of joining the republicans. Bad.

21 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:23:21pm

re: #19 laZardo

First- I believe LGF is already relevant. Second- I don't think Charles needs to moderate himself at all- just keep being sane and reasonable.

22 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:24:46pm

re: #16 kahall

Back around Christmas I was at a local Wal-Mart and there were some Nazi's sticking fliers on cars. Some BS about woman's safety. How could you not be embarrassed acting like that?

Totalitarians feel no shame about promoting The Cause, because to them those actions that promote the cause are by definition moral, and those that hurt it are immoral. All morality to them is measured by its effect on the Cause, and the ends justify the means.

23 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:24:57pm

re: #12 Gus 802

Haven't read the article yet but immediately thought of the European re-branding of extremist groups: Vlaams Belang, Pro-Koeln, and the BNP. Considering the background of the top members of Pro-Koeln for example with their direct links to the NDP and other European fascist backgrounds. They were essentially forced into re-branding by the German authorities.

The Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC and aka Country Club Clan) was essentially a re-branded form since the onset of that group. As we've seen many of these groups are well connected with their European counterparts and have learned what appears to have been a successful tactic by fascist groups in Europe which is to remodel the image of their groups on many fronts.

Absolutely. That's one reason I posted this, to illustrate the techniques used by these groups, including the Eurofascist groups. The Eurofascists have been at it longer and are even slicker than the US creeps; but people like Don Black have been very definitely emulating their success. If you search the Stormfront website for "Vlaams Belang," you'll find a huge amount of admiration for them.

24 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:25:25pm

I hope the FBI and DHS are on top of this, or is that bad? I forget.

25 BryanS  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:26:31pm

re: #18 lostlakehiker

That's for later, right? Salad and cheese first, then the main course.

Bah!

Ahh, but be sure to hang around to listen to "Dr David Duke address the Czech people and the world" posted on their web site. Really, he's a doctor now? Doctor of what, Assholery?

26 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:27:25pm

I partly blame the indoctrination in our urban school systems for the resurgence of the KKK. Because the far-left has given racist groups a legitimate issue to gripe about: With increasing stridency every year, public school curricula are indeed disparaging "white" (God how I loathe these color classifications) historical accomplishments. I.e.: 23 pages devoted to Obama, 1 paragraph for Benjamin Franklin; a whole chapter about Crispus Attucks, no mention of John Paul Jones; class projects about George Washington Carver, one passing reference to Thomas Edison; etc. etc.

Not that I think minority accomplishments should be ignored, but the pendulum has swung so far the other way that ill-intentioned and resentful "white" parents can legitimately feel that something is awry in mainstream education. Which makes them feel more open to the hate messages of the KKK.

When you take something to the extreme one way, there is inevitably a push-back the other way from the opposite extreme.

Where is the sensible moderation, people?

The dream of a color-blind society is being crushed by pincers on both sides, and it's horrifying to watch. Maybe we should just make our kids wear blindfolds til they're 18.

27 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:28:19pm

re: #24 Conservative Moonbat

I hope the FBI and DHS are on top of this, or is that bad? I forget.

I'm sure they are. There's no reason for them not to be. Conservatives must state and provide their support for investigations into these fascist monsters. We must not allow them to gain power and influence, as they are the enemy of everything we hold dear.

28 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:28:29pm

re: #23 Charles

Absolutely. That's one reason I posted this, to illustrate the techniques used by these groups, including the Eurofascist groups. The Eurofascists have been at it longer and are even slicker than the US creeps; but people like Don Black have been very definitely emulating their success. If you search the Stormfront website for "Vlaams Belang," you'll find a huge amount of admiration for them.

Yes, I think the similarities are pretty clear. At this time I don't see them quite as slick as the more experience European fascists but given time that may well be the case. This will no doubt grow in the coming years and it is up to us to remain vigilant and illustrate the evolution and history of these groups.

29 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:28:50pm

re: #13 laZardo

Wasn't their organization named because the World Couldn't Wait for Bush to Resign?

There is some twisted humor in such newfound redundancy.

Yup. Talk about an irrelevant name. Makes "MoveOn" (from the Monica Lewinsky scandal) seem positively au courant.

30 Rich H  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:29:24pm

Is America degenerating into Weimar Germany?

31 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:30:39pm

re: #23 Charles

Absolutely. That's one reason I posted this, to illustrate the techniques used by these groups, including the Eurofascist groups. The Eurofascists have been at it longer and are even slicker than the US creeps; but people like Don Black have been very definitely emulating their success. If you search the Stormfront website for "Vlaams Belang," you'll find a huge amount of admiration for them.

You will also find the 2004 concord in which they basically agreed with David Duke that they needed to tone down the rhetoric, eliminate overt hate, and preach white pride instead of hate. Notice in the article you see something parrotted across many sites:

“Why is it that when a black man wants to preserve his culture and heritage it’s a good thing, and when a white person wants the same thing, we’re called haters?”

The first logical fallacy of that statement is that there's no such thing as a "white culture" or a "black culture" except in some people's imaginations.

32 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:30:43pm

re: #24 Conservative Moonbat

I hope the FBI and DHS are on top of this, or is that bad? I forget.

The government has been on that beat for ages. We'll note that the government isn't worried about a "magnificent 19" scenario of white nationalist terrorists. The WN shindigs only pull in a few dozen at a time (maybe more at a skinhead punk rock concert). If you wanted to join a terror cell, chances are you'd be the only one in it who wasn't a Man In Black.

33 BryanS  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:31:03pm

re: #30 Rich H

Is America degenerating into Weimar Germany?

I don't think so. But we always need to be vigilant for any such possibility. Charles's pressing this issue is one way that such people are opposed.

34 arielle  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:31:27pm

'“Why is it that when a black man wants to preserve his culture and heritage it’s a good thing, and when a white person wants the same thing, we’re called haters?” he says.

Because you are a hater! But I would bet my house that he is proud to be a hater.

35 Irenike  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:32:11pm

These motherf**king Neo-Nazis hate Jews, too. Any group that sees the removal of swastikas from it's website as a mere tactical consideration so as not to "turn off" first time viewers is a monstrous organization. I hope they get tarred and feathered and smeared and discredited to the maximum degree. Why don't they all just go to Europe? There are a lot of white supremacists who would love to party with those pigs.

And if any of you scumbag neo-nazi KKK stormfront assholes are reading my post, listen up. I dislike Obama intensely. But not because he is black. The color of his skin completely irrelevant. Completely.

Thank you, Charles, for exposing these disgusting people. They make me want to joint the Democratic party just to keep away from them. And I'm a diehard free-market capitalist who believes in liberty and the greatness of America -- not exactly chic ideas among the Democrats these days.

36 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:32:35pm

re: #19 laZardo

...why I'm starting to think that LGF would do well to move a little more to the center to stay somewhat relevant.

Numero uno problem is that "the center" is ill-defined and "right" and "left" are inadequate to describe the political spectrum correctly. At the very minimum without saying social or fiscal in conjection with right/left or conservative/liberal I really have no idea what people mean anymore. Context is needed and often absent, especially in a 10 second sound byte.

Arlen Specter complains that the Republicans have moved to far to the right. Sean Vanity yammers back no they have gone too far to left. They are both describing the same thing and mean what they say. This is why this left/right nonsense is inadequate.

It will cause "conservatives" to sit at home on election day because a candidate could be Adam Smith on fiscal issues, but if he said something wishy washy on abortion once, then "that guy's a liberal.... lets vote for Huckabee."

/We're boned...

37 Max Darkside  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:32:47pm

re: #30 Rich H

Is America degenerating into Weimar Germany?

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that a lot of stuff is coming is unglued, scrambled and confusing. I feel like the world is swirling muck spinning around and down a sewer drain. I hang on to my best, positive principles. They are my only anchor.

38 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:33:05pm

More hate mail coming in now. Title: "You lost me."

Sorry Charles but I am no longer a fan of your site.Do you not
understand that actions cause reactions.White people(I'm one of them and
also a big Zionist)just wanted to see America settle after the 60's but
all it seemed to do is empower the worst of the worst.I am tired of
being considered the enemy(white male)in this country and I think it is
causing some strange bedfellows to come together,now I will never hold
hands with a grand dragon klan nut but I think American whites are
putting that aside because it is coming to a head with this avalanche of
democrats.Anyway,I am long here but you are just becoming overbearing
with John Birch this and Ron Paul that.Good luck but sorry I got to go
elsewhere.I think I will find where Mark Steyn writes.I like him.

39 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:33:49pm

re: #30 Rich H

Is America degenerating into Weimar Germany?

I was gonna mention that exact thing.

I fear the answer is yes. All the components are in place, from the financial meltdown, the national self-doubt, the growing influence of the extreme left and the extreme right, the degeneracy, the flapper costumes...wait, skip that last one.

Anyway, I dread that sitting in some Tennessee prison is a failed painter penning a self-aggrandizing autobiography about his days at the all-white Boy Scout Jamboree, entitled My Camp. And one day, that man will be our dictator.

40 Drogheda  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:35:06pm

re: #38 Charles

More hate mail coming in now. Title: "You lost me."

And nothing of value was lost...

41 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:35:56pm

re: #38 Charles

More hate mail coming in now. Title: "You lost me." - Good luck but sorry I got to go elsewhere.I think I will find where Mark Steyn writes.I like him.

I wonder how Mark Steyn feels about that support... his focus on demographics has made him a hero among white nationalists, whether he wanted that or not.

42 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:36:11pm

re: #38 Charles

More hate mail coming; title: "You lost me."

Wow. I think that person lost himself. He says:

I will never hold hands with a grand dragon klan nut but I think American whites are putting that aside because it is coming to a head with this avalanche of democrats.

He's only proving what has been said here and in the Newsweek article.

43 Killgore Trout  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:36:13pm

re: #38 Charles

I am tired of being considered the enemy(white male)in this country and I think it is causing some strange bedfellows to come together,


Yikes.

44 Tman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:37:32pm

The rise of groups like this seems pretty inevitable, considering a nation of 300 million people with a large percentage of those currently in various states of financial and mental distress. If you want a really scary leftist equivalent, go spend some time learning about the Nation of Islam and the various black power movements that have threatened similar rage at white leaders. Either way, Mr. Johnson will get no protest from me for turning over these rocks much the way he has done with Islamic terrorism.

But at the same time, I can't help but feel disappointed that in the rush to turn over said rocks, Mr. Johnson has dumped a lot of undeserved sand on the burgeoning anti-big government/tea party movements that have less to do with Republicans vs's Democrats and more to do with independents who are fed up with the monstrosity that has become our federal government.

I just wish that Charles was encouraging the great Lizard Army to come to these protests and out these fringe elements before they ruin a sincere homegrown movement, instead of dismissing them as some Ron Paul fantasy.

45 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:37:39pm

re: #39 zombie

I was gonna mention that exact thing.

I fear the answer is yes. All the components are in place, from the financial meltdown, the national self-doubt, the growing influence of the extreme left and the extreme right, the degeneracy, the flapper costumes...wait, skip that last one.

Anyway, I dread that sitting in some Tennessee prison is a failed painter penning a self-aggrandizing autobiography about his days at the all-white Boy Scout Jamboree, entitled My Camp. And one day, that man will be our dictator.

The good news is that this time we know what might happen and we can fight it. We can win too, if we fight smart.

46 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:38:07pm

re: #6 Charles

They're doing it right now at the end of the previous thread.

Sorry to be so late with this comment, but as you suggested I did read the whole thing.
But frankly I posted at the end of the previous thread, as did Bobibitutu, Salamantis, Silvergirl, Dianna and other regular LGFer's. Could you please be more specific about the comments of folks at the end of the previous thread who are, as Sharmuta put it: "What's really disturbing is the affiliations and associations- that certain people in the blogosphere seem to not notice these connections, but whitewash them instead as to better help these haters mainstream themselves." [emphasis by realwest] ?

47 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:38:08pm

Here we go again.

48 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:38:39pm

re: #46 realwest

I meant the 'What Right Wing Extremists' thread.

49 DistantThunder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:38:59pm

Race is such a red herring. Unless you can read character, you can't read people.

The only thing new that I've learned about race during the election, is that some blacks have been targeted for indoctrination by people like Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright and Father Phleger. Mexican supremacist groups, like La Raza, target Hipanics. Just like with the skinheads, and the KKK - it's all tribalism.

Yet, I look around at the people in my cultural group, and we have people from Samoa, Tonga, Uganda, someone else who is black and was formerly Muslim (as a child), Hawaiian, Italian, Polish, English, Apache - and we feel like an extended family.

50 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:38:59pm

re: #39 zombie

I was gonna mention that exact thing.

I fear the answer is yes. All the components are in place, from the financial meltdown, the national self-doubt, the growing influence of the extreme left and the extreme right, the degeneracy, the flapper costumes...wait, skip that last one.

Don't forget the infantilisation of the voting populace. Over the decades the welfare / nanny state has turned us into Jerome K Jerome's German in the park, searching all over for a police notice so he can follow it.

51 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:39:07pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Yikes.

Triple yikes. Typical "angry white male" stereotype that he himself displays. Funny, I've always heard about that stereotype but never felt it. Usually, I find that I am my own worst "enemy" with simple things like being lazy or procrastinating -- not cultural competition.

52 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:39:59pm

re: #38 Charles

More hate mail coming in now. Title: "You lost me."

That email kind of illustrates the point I was making in comment #26 above: People are feeling slighted by the way culture is going. And in an atmosphere like that, it's prime recruitment territory for racist groups.

Of course, it goes without saying that anyone who derives personal pride from the accomplishments of unrelated people who happened to share a similar skin color is a loser of the highest order. But, sadly, there are many such people (again, because our kids are being indoctrinated into "identity politics," i.e. racial balkanization). And if a society encourages people to identify by race (a horrible thing to do, but we're doing it), and then procedd to promote some races over others -- it's a recipe for disaster.

53 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:40:14pm

re: #48 Charles
Ah, ok, thank you for the clarification.

54 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:40:39pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Yikes.

There's a remarkable concordance of loons and haters.

55 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:40:54pm

The "Knights" was the giveaway.

/just another gang..........

56 Totally Berserk  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:41:17pm

Hopenchange!

57 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:43:15pm

re: #52 zombie

Of course, it goes without saying that anyone who derives personal pride from the accomplishments of unrelated people who happened to share a similar skin color is a loser of the highest order.

Probably too long, but nominated for rotating title.

58 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:43:34pm

re: #26 zombie

Pffft. Everyone knows Thomas Edison wasn't the real inventor of the light bulb.

//////////////

59 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:44:59pm

re: #56 Totally Berserk

Hopenchange!

Did you read the article? How is Obama directly to blame for the activities of racist groups?

60 DistantThunder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:45:17pm

re: #26 zombie

I partly blame the indoctrination in our urban school systems for the resurgence of the KKK. Because the far-left has given racist groups a legitimate issue to gripe about: With increasing stridency every year, public school curricula are indeed disparaging "white" (God how I loathe these color classifications) historical accomplishments. I.e.: 23 pages devoted to Obama, 1 paragraph for Benjamin Franklin; a whole chapter about Crispus Attucks, no mention of John Paul Jones; class projects about George Washington Carver, one passing reference to Thomas Edison; etc. etc.

Not that I think minority accomplishments should be ignored, but the pendulum has swung so far the other way that ill-intentioned and resentful "white" parents can legitimately feel that something is awry in mainstream education. Which makes them feel more open to the hate messages of the KKK.

When you take something to the extreme one way, there is inevitably a push-back the other way from the opposite extreme.

Where is the sensible moderation, people?

The dream of a color-blind society is being crushed by pincers on both sides, and it's horrifying to watch. Maybe we should just make our kids wear blindfolds til they're 18.

When I told my black sociology teacher that as a christian, I had been taught that the color of a person's skin was irrelevant, and I was taught to look at character, she corrected me. "We want you to consider our race because it is an important part of who we are." Then she informed us that the Association of Black Social Workers was a worthwhile organization, but only open to blacks.

Group identity politics - balkanizing and polarizing - just how she wanted it. Then there was my black studies professor who insisted that the Eqyptians were black, Jesus was black, Moses was black.

61 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:45:25pm

re: #55 IslandLibertarian

The "Knights" was the giveaway.

/just another gang..........

Another KKK spinoff. A turd from a racist old vulture.

62 Irenike  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:45:27pm

re: #38 Charles

More hate mail coming in now. Title: "You lost me."

Here's what I have to say to the writer of that fan mail: It's not about "being white." What a stupid statement. The left has made race an issue, and you're going to buy into it by arguing that race is the most important thing? You are a moron. Goodbye.

63 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:45:58pm

re: #49 DistantThunder

I personally have Chinese, Portuguese and "indio"/native Filipino heritage. That's three to choose from.

Fuck this tribalism, I just want to be me.

64 Rich H  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:46:11pm

re: #37 Max Darkside

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that a lot of stuff is coming is unglued, scrambled and confusing. I feel like the world is swirling muck spinning around and down a sewer drain. I hang on to my best, positive principles. They are my only anchor.

Money feeds politics like tropical heat feeds a hurricane. Cut off the source and the tempest may be tamed.

65 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:46:37pm

re: #49 DistantThunder

Race is such a red herring. Unless you can read character, you can't read people.

The only thing new that I've learned about race during the election, is that some blacks have been targeted for indoctrination by people like Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright and Father Phleger. Mexican supremacist groups, like La Raza, target Hipanics. Just like with the skinheads, and the KKK - it's all tribalism.

Yet, I look around at the people in my cultural group, and we have people from Samoa, Tonga, Uganda, someone else who is black and was formerly Muslim (as a child), Hawaiian, Italian, Polish, English, Apache - and we feel like an extended family.

La Raza had it's roots in radicalism. The real "supremacist" group in that realm would be the Chicano movement. Neither of which should be confused with the National Council of La Raza which is an advocacy group. The aforementioned militant groups such as the Chicano movement still pale in comparison to the likes of the KKK, Skinheads, and others.

66 wiffersnapper  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:48:10pm

The world so much simpler when Bush was president.

67 jcm  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:49:40pm

Bad craziness afoot.

It's like the armies of Mordor gathering as Sauron gains strength.

Except no ring will blow them away, the fight is going to be the old fashioned way.

Ideology vs. ideology, and beat them down one by one.

68 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:49:45pm

re: #65 Gus 802

La Raza had it's roots in radicalism. The real "supremacist" group in that realm would be the Chicano movement. Neither of which should be confused with the National Council of La Raza which is an advocacy group. The aforementioned militant groups such as the Chicano movement still pale in comparison to the likes of the KKK, Skinheads, and others.

Right, because what's to be remembered is that the KKK won, and enjoyed the fruits of their victory for almost a century.

69 Totally Berserk  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:50:08pm

re: #59 Zimriel

It's the Age of Obama! Yes I read the article, then I reread the title. The Age of Obama -- the best darn Teleprompter Reader ever -- warts and all.

This is the flip side of the thrills running up the leg of Chris Matthews. Like it or not. I don't approve of these people one whit -- and I think someone had to turn over a lot of rocks to find them -- but good God, gimme a break.

70 Irenike  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:50:23pm

re: #60 DistantThunder

Then there was my black studies professor who insisted that the Eqyptians were black, Jesus was black, Moses was black.

I just got a free copy of the Koran at a bookfair. The translator is some guy named Mohammed Malik. In the introduction, he claims that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all Muslims, as were the followers of Jesus. He also claims that the prophet Mohammed caused the fall of the Roman Empire.

It amazes me how people spread lies. They simply don't care about truth.

71 formercorpsman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:51:01pm

re: #44 Tman

Raising one's arm symbolically to the chant of "white power" is no different than the symbolism of Nazi Germany. It is born of the same ignorance, and hate, with a different colored bow neatly wrapped.

There should be no wiggle room for this. I would bet my next paycheck, if any of this idiots attending such functions, they would probably learn someone close to them was in all likelihood, fighting against this less than a century ago.

There is no room for this.

Recall, Hezbollah does the same arm salute.

72 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:51:21pm

re: #63 laZardo

I personally have Chinese, Portuguese and "indio"/native Filipino heritage. That's three to choose from.

Fuck this tribalism, I just want to be me.

I so agree. I am sick to death of any and all racial identifications. It's like MLK's "I have a dream" speech has been turned on its head. The content of his speech was forgotten, and all we remember is the color of his skin. It's like I'm living a nightmare. And then we have the freakin' Attorney General for the entire country saying we don't obsess about race enough.

Of course, all this is in the Gramscian playbook, but we'd not supposed to be aware of that.

73 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:52:02pm

re: #68 Zimriel

Right, because what's to be remembered is that the KKK won, and enjoyed the fruits of their victory for almost a century.

You ever see some of the old photographs when the KKK would have marches in towns or even parades? Rather disturbing but I guess that's history.

There's an interesting link in how the Superman show of the 40s helped to destroy the Klan.

74 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:53:53pm

re: #70 Irenike

I just got a free copy of the Koran at a bookfair. The translator is some guy named Mohammed Malik. In the introduction, he claims that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all Muslims, as were the followers of Jesus. He also claims that the prophet Mohammed caused the fall of the Roman Empire.

It amazes me how people spread lies. They simply don't care about truth.

Er, that's mainstream Islamic doctrine, that Abraham and Jesus were "Muslim" (insofar as they followed the revelations of G-d). And the prophet Muhammad's followers did cause the fall of the Roman Empire (in its Byzantine form, and however belatedly); that's just a fact.

75 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:55:18pm

re: #52 zombie Hi zom. I'm not sure if I understand your point in that comment.
It is apparently true that something over 95% of Black Voters voted for Obama and that made sense to me - if I were a Black man, I'd a voted for him too because he was the first Black American to run for POTUS. And frankly I'm not sure what you'd consider wrong with that. I mean, if we'd had other Black Presidents or Black Presidential candidates I would not have voted for Obama just on his lack of experience and the other things that came up during the campaign that made me suspect he wouldn't be able to deal appropriately with the proverbial "3:00Am phone call" Sorta like JFK and Roman Catholics, you know?

76 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:56:19pm

re: #73 Gus 802

You ever see some of the old photographs when the KKK would have marches in towns or even parades? Rather disturbing but I guess that's history.

I read a book about Notre Dame's clashes with the Klan in Indiana... I saw photos in that book.

77 Totally Berserk  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:57:52pm

re: #72 zombie

A thousand Hear Hears, sir!

Didn't Iowahawk say it best -- the big triumph of the 2008 election is that between content of character and color of skin, neither matters anymore? (I paraphrase of necessity)

Be that as it may. Didn't I read earlier on these very pages, that we are (were) about to turn this country over to people who despise it?

78 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:58:14pm

re: #60 DistantThunder

When I told my black sociology teacher that as a christian, I had been taught that the color of a person's skin was irrelevant, and I was taught to look at character, she corrected me. "We want you to consider our race because it is an important part of who we are." Then she informed us that the Association of Black Social Workers was a worthwhile organization, but only open to blacks.

Group identity politics - balkanizing and polarizing - just how she wanted it. Then there was my black studies professor who insisted that the Eqyptians were black, Jesus was black, Moses was black.

Your experience is pretty typical these days. The racial hyperventilating that goes on in school these days is enough to make one scream. To scream, "Can we all just stop talking about and caring about or even noticing what race everybody is already?!?!?!?!?! Jay-sus H. Christ!"

79 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:58:44pm

re: #59 Zimriel

Did you read the article? How is Obama directly to blame for the activities of racist groups?

He isn't and Totally Beserk is, well, an apt nic for him.

80 Tman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:58:44pm

re: #71 formercorpsman

Raising one's arm symbolically to the chant of "white power" is no different than the symbolism of Nazi Germany. It is born of the same ignorance, and hate, with a different colored bow neatly wrapped.

Agreed, I'm not in any way defending nor rationalizing this type of activity. But I'm not convinced that these groups are the ones behind the various conservative movements who are fed up with our current out of control Fedzilla. I think they, much like their brethren on the left, are part of the minority, but the media is making it too easy for people to jump from "anti-big government libertarian/conservative" to "frothing lunatic KKK member".

81 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:58:52pm

re: #72 zombie

I so agree. I am sick to death of any and all racial identifications. It's like MLK's "I have a dream" speech has been turned on its head. The content of his speech was forgotten, and all we remember is the color of his skin. It's like I'm living a nightmare. And then we have the freakin' Attorney General for the entire country saying we don't obsess about race enough.

Of course, all this is in the Gramscian playbook, but we'd not supposed to be aware of that.

I'm currently studying to be a history teacher at the University of Alabama and I took a whole class last semester on how to be a "culturally relevant teacher." We read a book that basically told us by ignoring race we are being racist through ignorance. I was always raised and personally believed that in a perfect world we wouldn't care at all about this artificial construct, Now it seems that that is being a crypto-racist. but i think that pandering to racial differnces is the definition of racism, but what do i know?

82 Flavia  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:59:22pm

re: #17 solomonpanting

They certainly have learned well. Now they're a victim class.

And this is exactly how their brothers who promote the Confederate flag portray themselves as well. All the while conveniently forgetting (or, rather, hoping we forget!) that their "culture" (which none of them can actually define) is solely one of oppressing minorities - especially when they yammer about "resettlement" for non-whites. I guess it was okay for whites to kill Indians & take the land - no, none of THEM should "go back to where they came from". Just the mud people.

No, I am not afraid Obama is really going to try to take our guns (well, not until he's finished bankrupting us & destroying Israel). But these self-made subhuman slimebags do make me want to go out and buy one.

83 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 9:59:58pm

I'm just shocked at how polarizing these times are.

However, the more these groups sow their oats and come out of the woodwork, it seems as if this makes it easier to clarify our ... centrist, or top of the circle positions. The haters have wished for an Obama presidency and now it's happened, methinks emboldening them to come out of the woodwork. While it seems this is a growing group, is it merely that this is an emergence of an existing group, only to come to the light of day? That is my hope.

This time, they are merely comparing minorities to cockroaches instead of talking about burning them on crosses, but nonetheless the identifiable target is there for some of us to point out.

It seems we have Sinclair Lewis leftist style fascists on one side and neo-racists on the other. While it's very freaky, the more they be what they are the easier it is to point out what they are to the ignorant masses.

84 Aviator  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:00:27pm

re: #75 realwest

Hi zom. I'm not sure if I understand your point in that comment.
It is apparently true that something over 95% of Black Voters voted for Obama and that made sense to me - if I were a Black man, I'd a voted for him too because he was the first Black American to run for POTUS. And frankly I'm not sure what you'd consider wrong with that. I mean, if we'd had other Black Presidents or Black Presidential candidates I would not have voted for Obama just on his lack of experience and the other things that came up during the campaign that made me suspect he wouldn't be able to deal appropriately with the proverbial "3:00Am phone call" Sorta like JFK and Roman Catholics, you know?

At the end of the day voting for someone because of the color of their skin is just as racist as voting against someone because of the color of their skin.

85 formercorpsman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:01:19pm

re: #80 Tman

I think they prey on vulnerable situations.

They need sunlight.

86 Drogheda  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:01:31pm

re: #73 Gus 802

You ever see some of the old photographs when the KKK would have marches in towns or even parades? Rather disturbing but I guess that's history.

There was a documentary on PBS that I've seen twice. Not exactly sure what it was called. It was about the history of the Klan and was an eye opener for me. I had no idea of the size of the Klan at it's peak. I had no idea they'd ever marched down Pennsylvania Avenue in D.C.

It was a part of history I was unaware of.

87 formercorpsman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:02:40pm

re: #86 Drogheda

Yeah, that was unreal.

88 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:02:47pm

re: #63 laZardo

I personally have Chinese, Portuguese and "indio"/native Filipino heritage. That's three to choose from.

Fuck this tribalism, I just want to be me.

Argentina, Spain, Portugal, and Italy here. My nephew married someone with Hawaiian and Filipino heritage and is expecting his second child. My aunt is from Cuba (she hates Castro), another from Poland, and another is from Argentina with some German blood.

I don't know how they feel about their heritage but I belong to the American tribe. It includes a great deal of cultures which is part of what made this nation strong through our struggles and accomplishments.

89 DistantThunder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:03:01pm

Here's the funny thing about white people - we change skin color. Some can go from pasty white, to deeply tanned. Doesn;t change what's on the inside.

90 formercorpsman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:03:57pm

re: #89 DistantThunder

I go from pasty white to boiled lobster red.

But I can dance bitches...

(Sorry, I am on a Chappelle kick as of late)

91 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:04:11pm

re: #60 DistantThunder
Hey DT! "When I told my black sociology teacher that as a christian, I had been taught that the color of a person's skin was irrelevant, and I was taught to look at character, she corrected me. "We want you to consider our race because it is an important part of who we are."
Did you perchance pursue that? I mean, for example, recite that part of Dr. King's statement talking about his children being judged on the content of their character, not the color of their skin?
And no I'm not being a wise-ass here - I really would like to know why she wants you to consider their race because it's an important part of who they are.

92 formercorpsman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:04:54pm

re: #90 formercorpsman

I can dance though..

93 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:04:54pm

re: #44 Tman

Tman ... Thiink wayyyy back. Can you remember any large scale Republican demonstrations?
I'm hard pressed trying to recall any.
The reality is that the Republican party are average people for the most part, and they don't go out and demonstrate in most circumstances. That's for the left because the left has always been a loose knit coalition of single issue groups and parties.

The tea parties in many (not all) cases are being organized by Ron Paul types, Constitution party types, Whig party types and others. They are looking at the demonstrations not as ways to shore up the Republican party base, but as recruiting opportunities for their party/cause/issue. It's true you won't see very many overt RP'ers and Birchers there, but trust me they are out and trying to up their numbers at the expense of the Republican party. That's what happens when you have a vague and unorganized protest - sounds great when you are fired up, but I honestly believe the earnest Republicans trying to promote them are actually sapping from our base.

94 SpaceJesus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:05:39pm

off topic, but a really cool article from reuters on autism and genetics


[Link: www.reuters.com...]

95 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:05:56pm

re: #86 Drogheda

There was a documentary on PBS that I've seen twice. Not exactly sure what it was called. It was about the history of the Klan and was an eye opener for me. I had no idea of the size of the Klan at it's peak. I had no idea they'd ever marched down Pennsylvania Avenue in D.C.

It was a part of history I was unaware of.

History is a great means to enlightenment. Of course from it we must learn never to repeat certain aspects of our history.

96 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:06:00pm

From Charles's hate mail above:

"[...] it is coming to a head with this avalanche of democrats [...]"

Well that's what you get when the very word Democrat has been turned into code for "commie socialist NAMBLA-enabling America-hating immigrant-loving Sharia-law-instituting infill-traitor".

The Democrats, say what you will, are one of the two great parties in this country, and yet people (plenty of them here, too) have turned it into a synonym for everything they love to hate.

It's a complete mirror image of what we had under Bush. And it's every bit as disgusting to me as Code Pink, Raging Grannies, Michael Moore, Cynthia McKinney and anyone else in the moonbat orbit you care to name.

I for one am fed up to the teeth with it.

97 Tman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:06:09pm

re: #85 formercorpsman

I agree. But just like chemo, I see a lot of healthy cells getting killed in the process.

98 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:06:42pm

re: #93 Thanos
The Whigs are back?

99 krycek  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:06:46pm

Sure many of these groups are renaming and reworking their brand. However, they still stink just as bad if you happen to get anywhere near them. Really they are turds.

It’s hard to conduct accurate surveys of racists, who tend to exaggerate their strength and importance...

I think this statement is very true. I don't want to be a Pollyanna but I think the relevance and importance of these groups will always be exaggerated by both sides.

100 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:07:24pm

re: #98 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest

The Whigs are back?

Yes

101 formercorpsman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:07:26pm

re: #97 Tman

Even more reason to try and stay cancer free.

102 DistantThunder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:07:31pm

re: #91 realwest

Hey DT! "When I told my black sociology teacher that as a christian, I had been taught that the color of a person's skin was irrelevant, and I was taught to look at character, she corrected me. "We want you to consider our race because it is an important part of who we are."
Did you perchance pursue that? I mean, for example, recite that part of Dr. King's statement talking about his children being judged on the content of their character, not the color of their skin?
And no I'm not being a wise-ass here - I really would like to know why she wants you to consider their race because it's an important part of who they are.

They get special things due to skin color. In fact she abandoned our class - refused to return our corrected papers - didn't hand in our grades. We students had to involve the administration. It was so egregious that I thought they would fire her for sure - Nope - she was back teaching the next semester - no explanation that I ever heard.

103 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:08:11pm

re: #77 Totally Berserk
Well I have said that I have serious doubts about Obama's respect for this country and his wife has herself said -when overseas - that she's ashamed to be from America. But I didn't say that because President Obama and the First Lady are Black, I said it because I think it's true - I truly don't think they respect America.

104 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:08:54pm

re: #100 Thanos

yeah. i just wiki'd them. i didn't know about that

105 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:09:06pm

What doesn't seem to be discussed but is the 800... no, 590 pound gorilla in the room is the tendency to celebrate other cultures to the exclusion of white cultures. It validates the racists because that ask "if it's OK to celebrate (x) culture, why can't I celebrate white culture?' That's a fair question. That's a good question.

The only way to validate that is to point out that it's merely fair to celebrate non-white cultures since white culture did this and that, it's only fair, blah blah blah.

So, white culture was racist, it's only fair that other cultures are promoted now. That's a fool's folly.

Like our kinder gentler racists of today that would rather call other racists vermin than promote violence (which helps sell it so maybe they can revert back down the road), the left promotes an alterna-racism of minority promotion, celebrating other cultures to the exclusion of 'white culture,' whatever the hell that is.

The new racists have a kinder gentler take on putting down other races, the left likes to promote specific ones above others. It's basically all the same to me except for the violence. The logical screwiness exists on both sides.

Instead of accepting other races or cultures, we have to 'celebrate' them. On a core level, at it's very basic, it's racism just the same.

106 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:09:09pm

re: #94 spacejesus

off topic, but a really cool article from reuters on autism and genetics

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

That really is a good article SJ. I updinged you for it. Please send it to Charles. Given how the anti-vax crowd has been using autism as a hammer with which to strike at vaccination, the research discussed in the article serves as a needed counter. I'd argue the article is threadworthy, if not tonight, then tomorrow morning.

107 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:09:51pm

re: #75 realwest

Hi zom. I'm not sure if I understand your point in that comment.
It is apparently true that something over 95% of Black Voters voted for Obama and that made sense to me - if I were a Black man, I'd a voted for him too because he was the first Black American to run for POTUS. And frankly I'm not sure what you'd consider wrong with that. I mean, if we'd had other Black Presidents or Black Presidential candidates I would not have voted for Obama just on his lack of experience and the other things that came up during the campaign that made me suspect he wouldn't be able to deal appropriately with the proverbial "3:00Am phone call" Sorta like JFK and Roman Catholics, you know?

Well, I was specifically referring to white idiots who derive pride undeservedly from the accomplishments of other white people -- those are the losers I was talking about. Not the other way around.

But you've brought up the core of the argument:

In our schools (and society in general), African-Americans are taught that they should derive personal pride from the accomplishments of other African-Americans. "White" Americans are taught that they must NOT derive pride from the accomplishments of other "white" Americans. And to drive the point home, the education system de-emphasizes the accomplishments of "white" Americans.

Now, I'm not saying that white people should derive personal pride from the accomplishments of other white people. That whole concept is ridiculous. But with the system set up as it currently is, it's like we're trying to cause resentment and anger among small-minded people. And in fact, I think that is the entire point: I think some very evil-intentioned people are in fact striving to accelerate racial resentment for the purpose of fomenting social revolution. Call me nuts. But I've read too much of Bill Ayers' writings (and the writings of people like Bill Ayers) to fool myself anymore.

108 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:10:25pm

re: #93 Thanos

Tman ... Thiink wayyyy back. Can you remember any large scale Republican demonstrations?

Pro-life marches.

109 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:10:27pm

re: #84 Aviator

At the end of the day voting for someone because of the color of their skin is just as racist as voting against someone because of the color of their skin.

Yes. It really is that simple.

110 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:11:21pm

re: #107 zombie

In our schools (and society in general), African-Americans are taught that they should derive personal pride from the accomplishments of other African-Americans. "White" Americans are taught that they must NOT derive pride from the accomplishments of other "white" Americans. And to drive the point home, the education system de-emphasizes the accomplishments of "white" Americans.

Americans should derive personal pride from the great accomplishments of other Americans.

No, I have not omitted anything from the previous sentence.

111 SpaceJesus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:12:21pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

That really is a good article SJ. I updinged you for it. Please send it to Charles. Given how the anti-vax crowd has been using autism as a hammer with which to strike at vaccination, the research discussed in the article serves as a needed counter. I'd argue the article is threadworthy, if not tonight, then tomorrow morning.

of course the anti-vaccination nuts will just say "oh no, not my genetics! I AM PERFECT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE" and ignore it.

how do you send things to charles? hopefully he just notices the link i posted

112 Tman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:12:43pm

re: #93 Thanos

Tman ... Thiink wayyyy back. Can you remember any large scale Republican demonstrations?

No, which makes these protests all the more impressive to me.


The reality is that the Republican party are average people for the most part, and they don't go out and demonstrate in most circumstances. That's for the left because the left has always been a loose knit coalition of single issue groups and parties.

Yet more reason why these protests, which appear to be happening every weekend, seem all that more impressive.

The tea parties in many (not all) cases are being organized by Ron Paul types, Constitution party types, Whig party types and others.

Yeah, see- I don't see them there. The ones in Nashville have been as about as grass roots as anything I can remember. I strongly disagree that many of these are organized by any one specific group.

They are looking at the demonstrations not as ways to shore up the Republican party base, but as recruiting opportunities for their party/cause/issue. It's true you won't see very many overt RP'ers and Birchers there, but trust me they are out and trying to up their numbers at the expense of the Republican party. That's what happens when you have a vague and unorganized protest - sounds great when you are fired up, but I honestly believe the earnest Republicans trying to promote them are actually sapping from our base.

These aren't vague protests at all. People across the nation are screaming every weekend that THE GOVERNMENT IS TOO BIG. Just imagine how much stronger they would be with a lizardoid debunking army to stop the Birchers from any attempts to co-opt them.

113 Irenike  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:12:49pm

re: #74 Zimriel

Er, that's mainstream Islamic doctrine, that Abraham and Jesus were "Muslim" (insofar as they followed the revelations of G-d). And the prophet Muhammad's followers did cause the fall of the Roman Empire (in its Byzantine form, and however belatedly); that's just a fact.

Well, I just consulted a few history books. Historian Nigel Rodgers puts the beginning of the collapse of the western Roman empire at 396 CE. Rome was sacked in 410 CE. Mohammed was born in 571. Okay, so maybe his followers helped to finish off the Byzantine empire as you say (I haven't yet checked that), but claiming that Mohammed "challenged the Roman Empire" (as Malik does) is really stretching the truth. It's like pushing on the wall of a collapsing building and claiming that you caused it to fall.

I am dismayed to learn that this is standard Islamic doctrine. It is sloppy scholarship. If they really believe this, they need to explain the difference between a monotheist and a Muslim.

114 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:12:58pm

re: #84 Aviator
So you would, I suppose, say that the 95% of Black American Voters who did in fact vote for Obama were all racists?

115 avanti  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:13:14pm

re: #103 realwest

Well I have said that I have serious doubts about Obama's respect for this country and his wife has herself said -when overseas - that she's ashamed to be from America. But I didn't say that because President Obama and the First Lady are Black, I said it because I think it's true - I truly don't think they respect America.

Just because I like to keep track of such things, when did the first lady say overseas that she "was ashamed to be from America" You'd think I would have heard about that one.

116 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:13:51pm

re: #94 spacejesus

off topic, but a really cool article from reuters on autism and genetics

There's also this from The Economist.

117 researchok  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:14:08pm

I'm glad you posted this.

The tactics of entryism (in this instance, designing extremist ideology to sound reasonable) you noted in the previous thread, is used to portray the new, improved and gentle Klan seem to be working.

These people are not just silly or ignorant. They are more than ready to threaten those who see them for who they are, deceive anyone around them and deprive themselves and others of reality. They are unhappy souls, all monuments to failure and progress. They hate government and every other form of societal institutions- because they have failed at being a part of the mainstream.

That there are people who support Ron Paul, the Arabs in their jihad against Israel and western freedoms and the likes if Hugo Chavez and Evo Morales is not an indication that they are crazy. Rather, it highlights moral, ethical, intellectual and character bankruptcy.

They are among the most immoral people on the face of the planet.

118 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:14:56pm

re: #88 Gus 802

Argentina, Spain, Portugal, and Italy here. My nephew married someone with Hawaiian and Filipino heritage and is expecting his second child. My aunt is from Cuba (she hates Castro), another from Poland, and another is from Argentina with some German blood.

You want to join my gang? It's the Mutt Tribe. I'm almost proud that I can be proud that I'm not much of anything. Just cuz, like, I'm like Mutt, and I'm unique. So that makes me proud.

119 Tman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:15:03pm

re: #101 formercorpsman

Even more reason to try and stay cancer free.

Too late. We healthy cells must fight together or surely burn separately.

120 Bagua  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:15:40pm

re: #23 Charles

Absolutely. That's one reason I posted this, to illustrate the techniques used by these groups, including the Eurofascist groups. The Eurofascists have been at it longer and are even slicker than the US creeps; but people like Don Black have been very definitely emulating their success. If you search the Stormfront website for "Vlaams Belang," you'll find a huge amount of admiration for them.

Yes, in Britain the BNP is pulling out all the stops in trying to appear more palatable and covering up past ideology or otherwise sanitizing it. They are also having surprising success with the possibility they may seat an MEP. Some otherwise sensible people are being drawn to them because they are angry with the EU, those newcomers are not so much trying to whitewash but are either saying that they don't really support the BNP and this will be a protest vote to send a message to the Torries and Labour or they are willing to put aside the past and accept the sanitized version and claim they have changed.

121 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:16:45pm

re: #81 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest

I'm currently studying to be a history teacher at the University of Alabama and I took a whole class last semester on how to be a "culturally relevant teacher." We read a book that basically told us by ignoring race we are being racist through ignorance. I was always raised and personally believed that in a perfect world we wouldn't care at all about this artificial construct, Now it seems that that is being a crypto-racist. but i think that pandering to racial differnces is the definition of racism, but what do i know?

Bingo. Imagine your experience being repeated a million times over, and you have the 21st century American educational system.

122 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:17:30pm

re: #114 realwest

So you would, I suppose, say that the 95% of Black American Voters who did in fact vote for Obama were all racists?

No, not necessarily. I would tell them that they should talk to Eric Holder.... LOL.

123 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:18:19pm

There are also some Paleo think tanks with stinky associations and writers orging some of these.

That said, it's time for me to get some sleeps so I'll leave you with a song

124 LGoPs  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:18:32pm

re: #96 Cato the Elder

From Charles's hate mail above:


Well that's what you get when the very word Democrat has been turned into code for "commie socialist NAMBLA-enabling America-hating immigrant-loving Sharia-law-instituting infill-traitor".

The Democrats, say what you will, are one of the two great parties in this country, and yet people (plenty of them here, too) have turned it into a synonym for everything they love to hate.

It's a complete mirror image of what we had under Bush. And it's every bit as disgusting to me as Code Pink, Raging Grannies, Michael Moore, Cynthia McKinney and anyone else in the moonbat orbit you care to name.

I for one am fed up to the teeth with it.

No. What was done to Bush for the last 8 years was a true calumny. Michael Moore and Cynthia McKinney and Code Pink made accusations and distorted the truth beyond all recognition. And magnified by the media's unqualified support, they far exceed anything the right could ever muster.
The Democratic Party once was a great party, back in the day's of JFK and Humphrey, Jackson, Nunn and Miller. No longer. They are a party that stands for everything that is antithetical to what this country is. The Democratic Party has left it's roots.
The Democratic party, through it's actions has created those images and labels that you call code. I call it truth in advertising. It is calling a spade a spade.

125 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:19:29pm

re: #108 Zimriel

Yep, single issue group right?

126 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:19:51pm

re: #107 zombie

Well, I was specifically referring to white idiots who derive pride undeservedly from the accomplishments of other white people -- those are the losers I was talking about. Not the other way around.

But you've brought up the core of the argument:

In our schools (and society in general), African-Americans are taught that they should derive personal pride from the accomplishments of other African-Americans. "White" Americans are taught that they must NOT derive pride from the accomplishments of other "white" Americans. And to drive the point home, the education system de-emphasizes the accomplishments of "white" Americans.

Now, I'm not saying that white people should derive personal pride from the accomplishments of other white people. That whole concept is ridiculous. But with the system set up as it currently is, it's like we're trying to cause resentment and anger among small-minded people. And in fact, I think that is the entire point: I think some very evil-intentioned people are in fact striving to accelerate racial resentment for the purpose of fomenting social revolution. Call me nuts. But I've read too much of Bill Ayers' writings (and the writings of people like Bill Ayers) to fool myself anymore.

I think a lot of that is an offshoot of pride movements that were seen to mediate observed deficiencies by sociologists and popular movements. Hence, it wasn't really about promoting black accomplishments for black students for the sake of race but a means to bolster what they saw as a demoralized population. For a long time the status quo was to demean blacks and remove them from participation in society at large. That's why in effect it was important to highlight the accomplishments of other blacks for black kids as a means to motivate them into thinking that they too can accomplish greatness in the face of a post-Jim Crow culture.

127 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:19:52pm

We read a book that basically told us by ignoring race we are being racist through ignorance.

So being anti-racist is racist? What a complete Orwellian mind screw. Strange times indeed.

128 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:20:14pm

re: #113 Irenike

The Ottoman Turks, who were Muslims, conquered the Byzantines in 1453. That Constantinople was a center of trade meant that the western European nations had to look elsewhere for a route for their spices, partially leading to the beginning of the Age of Exploration.

Contrary to popular belief, Constantinople wasn't officially called Istanbul until 1930, and even then the name Istanbul was derived from the Greek meaning "of The City" (capitals for emphasis of the city's importance at the time.) Until then, the Turks simply used the Arabic translation, Konstantiniyye.

/the more you know...

129 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:21:44pm

re: #113 Irenike

Well, I just consulted a few history books. Historian Nigel Rodgers puts the beginning of the collapse of the western Roman empire at 396 CE. Rome was sacked in 410 CE. Mohammed was born in 571. Okay, so maybe his followers helped to finish off the Byzantine empire as you say (I haven't yet checked that), but claiming that Mohammed "challenged the Roman Empire" (as Malik does) is really stretching the truth. It's like pushing on the wall of a collapsing building and claiming that you caused it to fall.

I am dismayed to learn that this is standard Islamic doctrine. It is sloppy scholarship. If they really believe this, they need to explain the difference between a monotheist and a Muslim.

A Muslim uses the term "Rum" for the Eastern Roman Empire based in Constantinople because that is what the mediaeval Muslims heard from the Constantinopolitans. The "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" is a complex enough topic that I'm willing to give Muslims a pass on that, especially since the Muslim Turks did, in fact, wipe out that vestige of the Roman Empire in 1453.

Nigel Rodgers is about right; I'd written some essays on what I'd called "The Byzantine Shift" which unfortunately went down with my blog. But, it boils down to, the border in the Balkans failed in 378 AD, and the people who put the pieces together were the Theodosian dynasty in the East. Starting about the 380s, the East treated the West like a liability and let it collapse.

As for Islam's treatment of Jewish and Christian luminaries as Islamic Prophets, you'll have to take that up with the Qur'an; sura 3 would be your primary point of reference. You can quit reading that sura when it starts blathering about jihad after verse 100 or so.

130 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:21:57pm

re: #91 realwest

Hey DT! "When I told my black sociology teacher that as a christian, I had been taught that the color of a person's skin was irrelevant, and I was taught to look at character, she corrected me. "We want you to consider our race because it is an important part of who we are."
Did you perchance pursue that? I mean, for example, recite that part of Dr. King's statement talking about his children being judged on the content of their character, not the color of their skin?
And no I'm not being a wise-ass here - I really would like to know why she wants you to consider their race because it's an important part of who they are.

You got a lot to learn. If you talk back in a class like that, you will definitely be branded a racist.

Those of us in "the center" who try to point out the irrelevance of race get branded as villains by the extremists on both sides. Lovely, isn't it?

131 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:22:59pm

re: #110 laZardo

Americans Humans should derive personal pride from the great accomplishments of other Americans humans.

Fixed that for you.

132 WindHorse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:23:06pm

anyone who says Joycelyn Elders was incompetent.... well... is at least a racist....

/

133 Totally Berserk  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:23:23pm

re: #103 realwest

Well I have said that I have serious doubts about Obama's respect for this country and his wife has herself said -when overseas - that she's ashamed to be from America. But I didn't say that because President Obama and the First Lady are Black, I said it because I think it's true - I truly don't think they respect America.

100% agreement there. I reserve the same contempt for anyone regardless of their age, sex, race, religion, or country of national origin, based on their own statements and attitudes. That Michelle went after standing ovations for saying she hadn't been proud of her country during her adult life until the middle of 2008, despite all she could achieve there, and despite being subjected to the daily ignominies she was subjected to in Obama's dreamy father's Kenya, it was impossible to cut her any slack. The woman earned $300,000 a year working for a non-profit hospital, on the back of an affirmative-action law degree, (have you read her 'thesis'?) the ingratitude is infinitely unforgivable. I would say the same of Barbra Streisand or Janeane Garofalo, or any bratty female of any other race who exhibited similar tendencies.

No, it was Democrats who constantly made an issue of Obama's race... from the 'magic Negro' guy at the LA times, I'm with zombie, I think the whole color thing should have been put to bed after 30 years of affirmative action and the Great Society, but it only got worse. But don't get me started, I may go totally berserk.

134 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:23:36pm

re: #130 zombie

I am suddenly thankful I didn't complete my K-12 education in the United States.

And I was born and raised in SF before I moved to Manila. That says a lot...

135 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:23:58pm

re: #112 Tman

Yes, but is there a purpose to the tea parties? If it's just venting I can do that at home.

Demonstrations and anger do not win elections. Morning in America wins elections, Hope and Change wins elections, etc. etc.

136 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:26:00pm

Being in Hawaii, the Kau Inoa movement that is promoting a process to create a separate Hawaiian nation. This bothers me on so many levels.

While I would never directly compare this to DonBlackism or what we consider classic racism, there are some deep down concepts that are shared no less.

It's almost as if we consider racism in the traditional sense an 'anti-race/culture' racism, while there is a 'pro-race/culture' racism that is promoted by the left.

Both bother me and can't reconcile with MLK judging man by the content of their character.

137 Tman  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:27:02pm

re: #135 Thanos

Yes, but is there a purpose to the tea parties? If it's just venting I can do that at home.

Demonstrations and anger do not win elections. Morning in America wins elections, Hope and Change wins elections, etc. etc.


I think the purpose of the Tea Parties is quite obvious, protesting taxation without representation, thus the name.

I suppose those wacky Revolutionaries back in Boston should have stayed home too?

138 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:27:14pm

re: #111 SpaceJesus

of course the anti-vaccination nuts will just say "oh no, not my genetics! I AM PERFECT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE" and ignore it.

how do you send things to charles? hopefully he just notices the link i posted

Send him an email with the link.

139 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:28:07pm

re: #127 BigPapa

the book was called The Dreamkeepers or something like that. It's fairly old, about 20 yrs. It was basically about how to teach black students. The section that said white teachers who ignore race are racist really blew my mind.

140 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:28:16pm

There's more to America than the Bay Area.

141 Irenike  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:28:17pm

re: #128 laZardo

The Ottoman Turks, who were Muslims, conquered the Byzantines in 1453.

I'm no historian. It's late. I'm ready to sleep.

But, wasn't the Byzantine empire that the Muslims conquered in 1453 a Christian empire, since Constantine had converted to Christianity and forced all of his subjects to convert as well?

To my mind, a Christian Byzantine empire is way different from the pagan Roman Empire that fell in the late 300's or early 400's. That was my quibble with Malik's claim that Mohammed "challenged the Roman Empire." Rome had been sacked long before old Mo was even born.

142 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:28:25pm

re: #130 zombie

Those of us in "the center" who try to point out the irrelevance of race get branded as villains by the extremists on both sides. Lovely, isn't it?

You get the most flack over the target my Honco friend.

143 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:28:45pm

re: #96 Cato the Elder

From Charles's hate mail above:

Well that's what you get when the very word Democrat has been turned into code for "commie socialist NAMBLA-enabling America-hating immigrant-loving Sharia-law-instituting infill-traitor".

The Democrats, say what you will, are one of the two great parties in this country, and yet people (plenty of them here, too) have turned it into a synonym for everything they love to hate.

It's a complete mirror image of what we had under Bush. And it's every bit as disgusting to me as Code Pink, Raging Grannies, Michael Moore, Cynthia McKinney and anyone else in the moonbat orbit you care to name.

I for one am fed up to the teeth with it.

The problem for me is that I have absolutely no personal experience with actual racists or KKK members or anything like that. To me, they're like monsters is a horror film. I only read about them as some distant evil. I live in the most multi-culti part of a multi-culti region, so that whole "white power" scene is like something from another planet.

Ah, but the Raging Grannies and Code Pink and the Black Liberation Army and the rest -- I see them on a daily basis. One responds to what one is personally confronted with.

Intellectually, I know that these neo-Nazi types are out there, but it's hard for me to generate a visceral sense of urgency about them because I've never actually seen one.

144 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:30:09pm

Now I've really got to get some sleep like I said a while ago. Tman, it goes back to this for me, group venting and personal venting might make you feel better for awhile, but they don't accomplish much, and they distract from getting purposeful things done.

“Anyone can be angry. That is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, in the right way — that is not easy.”

– Aristotle, “Nicomachean Ethics”

145 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:31:03pm

re: #144 Thanos

Now I've really got to get some sleep like I said a while ago. Tman, it goes back to this for me, group venting and personal venting might make you feel better for awhile, but they don't accomplish much, and they distract from getting purposeful things done.

Great book.

146 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:31:18pm

re: #143 zombie

I saw a Klan rally when I was about 8 years old. That was a long time ago. I saw it with two other boys who were black boys. We were sneaking around in places where we ought not to have been.

147 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:31:19pm

re: #93 Thanos Hi Thanos!
You said

That's what happens when you have a vague and unorganized protest - sounds great when you are fired up, but I honestly believe the earnest Republicans trying to promote them are actually sapping from our base.

and I don't really see that. I know LOTS of folks think the Tea Parties were organizied by any and maybe all the folks you mentione, but what I think surprised a LOT of people, including me, was two things: a) for what certainly were amorphously "orgainized" - at least at the 32 different Tea Parties here in N.C., there really were a LOT of people at those Tea Parties - in the aggregate, I mean and b) the genuine anger that those who attended the Tea Parties displayed. I mean that anger was somewhat unusally (from a political pov) diffused against Obama, Republicans, Democrats, Bush and a few congresscritters. To the extent Republicans - not the friggin creationsists or the neo-nazi's or libertarians - just regular ole small government, limited federal spending, defense of country, government to keep the hell out of our private lives and the main key: emphaisis on the individual's freedom AND responsibility - those Republicans could have somehow harnassed that anger, they would have and some (including my congresswoman from down here) actually did get more support from the "grass root levels".
And the Tea Parties - because there were so many people who were SO angry about federal spending, taxing, failing to do what the Federal Government should do, they in fact SCARED the Left. As you noted, Republicans and moderate or conservative voters don't "do" demonstrations or parades very much.
I think after weeding out the Paulistas,Neo-Nazi's and other bad types, there were still hundreds of thousands of people Republicans could use as a grasshoots base.
And I also think - hell believe - that April 15 2010 and 2011 Tea Parties will be truly significant - especially about taxes and spending.

148 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:31:28pm

re: #124 LGoPs

No. What was done to Bush for the last 8 years was a true calumny. Michael Moore and Cynthia McKinney and Code Pink made accusations and distorted the truth beyond all recognition. And magnified by the media's unqualified support, they far exceed anything the right could ever muster.

Fox teevee is disproving that assertion, day by day and hour by hour.

The Democratic Party once was a great party, back in the day's of JFK and Humphrey, Jackson, Nunn and Miller. No longer. They are a party that stands for everything that is antithetical to what this country is. [snip]

Traitors, in other words? Un-American? Not worthy of their citizenship?

You are talking about nearly everyone in my family, along with more than half the voting population.

That's an awful big chunk of America you're willing to disown.

149 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:33:22pm

re: #147 realwest

Anger doesn't do anything. Too much is dangerous.

150 krycek  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:33:31pm

re: #135 Thanos

Yes, but is there a purpose to the tea parties? If it's just venting I can do that at home.

Demonstrations and anger do not win elections. Morning in America wins elections, Hope and Change wins elections, etc. etc.

The purpose of the tea parties is to remind congress that it's our (meaning taxpayers') money they are blowing. And hopefully meet a few other good like-minded people in the process.

151 Max Darkside  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:34:45pm

re: #64 Rich H

Money feeds politics like tropical heat feeds a hurricane. Cut off the source and the tempest may be tamed.

It seems to be a final grab for money before it all comes down, the last heat is being sucked up by the hurricane. Money has been, and still is being stolen from the Treasury to fund political friends, not caring about the expense to those who follow, in pure greed. Oh sure, they say it is to "save us", but rather it is to rob us. There were other solutions to this, so I hear, that thoughtful rational persons came up with, but they are not a part of the money or politics and so are faint voices in the roar. But the crisis was created, the money grabbed, doled out to buddies, scrambled and fought over, and we all will have to deal with it in the end. To think there will be a significant turning point to this with sunny economies going forward may be hopeful, at best.

One financial analyst asked me when the recovery will begin. I replied, "You are making a large assumption".

/looking for a positive note... as we are tempered in the economic hellfires.

152 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:35:03pm

re: #102 DistantThunder
"In fact she abandoned our class - refused to return our corrected papers - didn't hand in our grades. We students had to involve the administration." Holy shit. If I'd a tried that crap when I was a professor I'd have been canned forthwith. Let me guess: she had tenure!

153 Irenike  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:35:10pm

#129 Zimriel

Thank you for the historical explanation.

Can you recommend a standard translation of the Koran? Is Malik's translation fairly mainstream? I want to read a version that most Muslims would consider a fair translation.

Another thing that surprised me in my cursory reading of the Koran was how often it slams Jews and Christians, using outright lies. It claims, for example, that Jews believe that only Jews will get into Heaven. This is so untrue. I have read a lot of book on Jewish theology, and the Jewish belief is that righteous (but not necessarily Jewish) people will share in the World to Come.

154 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:37:32pm

re: #153 Irenike

IMHO, The best English translation of the Koran is at the web site of the University of Virginia. Don't have the link handy, but it is good, with searchable words and such. It is a continuation of Jefferson's own work.

155 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:38:51pm

re: #110 laZardo

Americans should derive personal pride from the great accomplishments of other Americans.

No, I have not omitted anything from the previous sentence.

See, if you talk like that, you would get in serious trouble if you were training to be a teacher. Seriously. I doubt you'd be allowed to get the certificate.

Divisive hyper-awarenss of race is now a requirement in many states to become a teacher. If you insist on being color-blind, you will be ordered to re-read CheatyPantsMcSweatervest's book in comment #81 above that informs you that "by ignoring race we are being racist through ignorance."

156 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:39:01pm

re: #141 Irenike

I'm no historian. It's late. I'm ready to sleep.

But, wasn't the Byzantine empire that the Muslims conquered in 1453 a Christian empire, since Constantine had converted to Christianity and forced all of his subjects to convert as well?

To my mind, a Christian Byzantine empire is way different from the pagan Roman Empire that fell in the late 300's or early 400's. That was my quibble with Malik's claim that Mohammed "challenged the Roman Empire." Rome had been sacked long before old Mo was even born.

Rome is Rome, even if it's Christian... otherwise, by your logic, Theodosius "destroyed" the Roman Empire by banning paganism in 391.

And the city of Rome was only partially plundered in 410. It got its full "sacking' in 455-ish from the Vandals and even they didn't depose (what was left of) the Empire at Rome. Odoacer the Ostrogoth took care of that in 476 (and pretended to be a vassal of the East).

The Roman Empire died hard. The East reconquered Italy, sorta, in the 500s. And it wasn't certain that the East would stay in the East: as late as the 660s AD, the Empire was holding court from Syracuse in Sicily. (Then the Emperor Constans II was murdered and they moved back to Constantinople.)

157 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:39:02pm

re: #149 Thanos
Well too much anger is definitely not helpful and in fact usually produces results contrary to those who feel that anger.
But folks who are genuinely angry at (this time around, taxes, government spending - Obama's proposed budget PROJECTS a $1.5 TRILLION Deficit -) I think it's helpful to the folks in the beltway get to understand their constitutents concerns in a way that e-mails or faxed letters or phone calls don't really do.

158 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:39:26pm

re: #143 zombie

The problem for me is that I have absolutely no personal experience with actual racists or KKK members or anything like that. To me, they're like monsters is a horror film. I only read about them as some distant evil. I live in the most multi-culti part of a multi-culti region, so that whole "white power" scene is like something from another planet.

Ah, but the Raging Grannies and Code Pink and the Black Liberation Army and the rest -- I see them on a daily basis. One responds to what one is personally confronted with.

Intellectually, I know that these neo-Nazi types are out there, but it's hard for me to generate a visceral sense of urgency about them because I've never actually seen one.

I never experienced anything from the Klan but I did kind of grow up with hearing the words Spic and Wop thrown at us. It's not very inspiring to hear it but it happened. Once in upstate New York we were tormented by a gang of youths throwing rocks at our house calling us spic for several hours and having to call the State Police. The other time was being called Wops in Long Island and having our house egged. I had one guy at work tell me (a while back now) that it doesn't matter where a Spanish person is from because according to him "a Spic is a Spic."

159 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:39:30pm

re: #141 Irenike

I'm no historian. It's late. I'm ready to sleep.

But, wasn't the Byzantine empire that the Muslims conquered in 1453 a Christian empire, since Constantine had converted to Christianity and forced all of his subjects to convert as well?

To my mind, a Christian Byzantine empire is way different from the pagan Roman Empire that fell in the late 300's or early 400's. That was my quibble with Malik's claim that Mohammed "challenged the Roman Empire." Rome had been sacked long before old Mo was even born.

The Western Roman empire was a "Christian" Empire de jure by the early 300s and I believe, mostly Christian de facto before that anyway. It didn't fall until the late 400s when Christianized German tribes began carving it up into their own kingdoms with a bunch of Emperor pretenders who patted the real empire in Ravenna on the head and said "isn't he cute thinking he's Caesar."

160 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:39:32pm

re: #143 zombie

[snip] Intellectually, I know that these neo-Nazi types are out there, but it's hard for me to generate a visceral sense of urgency about them because I've never actually seen one.

I have. Both here and in Europe. Being a motorcyclist got me into some very interesting company, back in the day. Ditto being an American who can pass for a German, linguistically. (Not so much anymore, I haven't lived there for two decades, but once upon a time I could even masquerade as a echte Schwob.)

It occurs to me that's the point of this whole exercise. Charles is acquainting us with a reality many of us have not considered a threat before.

A lot of people are taking it personally, as if he were calling them out. And maybe the reactions he's getting show that he actually is. There's an awful lot of defensiveness in the heat and hate he's taking.

161 clgood  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:39:41pm
“Why is it that when a black man wants to preserve his culture and heritage it’s a good thing, and when a white person wants the same thing, we’re called haters?”

That's funny! He manages to make a good point, commit a fallacy, and shoot himself in the foot all with one rhetorical question.

162 Timbre  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:40:19pm

re: #107 zombie

"Well, I was specifically referring to white idiots who derive pride undeservedly from the accomplishments of other white people -- those are the losers I was talking about. Not the other way around."


Good point Zombie! And some of the biggest losers, and all-around dangerous people, are the convicts who hide behind obvious, prison religions in order to spout their racist venom to each other and, in my opinion, arm-twisted proselytes, under the guise of the protection of the First Amendment.

163 WindHorse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:41:00pm

re: #158 Gus 802

a real brainchild......

164 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:41:04pm

re: #159 ArchangelMichael

real Emperor in Ravenna

PIMF

165 MARedneck  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:41:09pm

Rev Wright in negative. Are these folks thinking their turn is next for the Presidency?

166 Bob Dillon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:42:10pm

re: #140 Gus 802

There's more to America than the Bay Area.

Of course there is - however with so many micro climates here, one can choose profound options - from weather to politics.

167 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:42:54pm

re: #163 WindHorse

a real brainchild......

I didn't say anything. I probably should have punched him in the face.

My brother was called a "Greasy Mexican" by some co-worker two years ago. Funny, we're not from Mexico.

168 clgood  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:43:40pm

re: #154 rawmuse

You mean this Koran?

169 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:43:43pm

ack, I should have waited to read your response, or I would have been less aggressive ("by your logic"). I am sorry.

170 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:44:44pm

re: #156 Zimriel

"Odoacer the Ostrogoth"
Should have claimed that as my nic...

171 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:45:41pm

re: #158 Gus 802

Conversely, I have been harangued about English being my first language over Tagalog/Filipino. With the rise of the call center industry here (who says outsourcing isn't a good thing? ;D ) English with the American accent has become more of a point of humor, but that doesn't stop it hurting whenever it's brought up.

/hurrrr.

172 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:45:41pm

re: #168 clgood

You mean this Koran?

That looks like the site I read starting on 9-12-2001, yes.

173 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:46:31pm

re: #149 Thanos

Anger doesn't do anything. Too much is dangerous.

That is very true. However, anger can be used as fuel for positive or negative means. Too much and it gets out of control. Controlled and modulated, can provide energy to to an end. Anger in and of itself is just unused or uncontrolled energy.

The above quote from Aristotle is very personal to me right now as I work through some professional issues with associates. I appreciate it very much.

174 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:46:34pm

re: #153 Irenike

#129 Zimriel

Thank you for the historical explanation.

Can you recommend a standard translation of the Koran? Is Malik's translation fairly mainstream? I want to read a version that most Muslims would consider a fair translation.

I find that the Qur'ans put out by Wahhabi outfits do the best at explaining what the text really says. (I know enough Arabic to make that call.) That would be the translation of Muhammad Muhsin Khan. Other Qur'an translations tend to tone it down; Khan translates for fundamentalist Muslims.

Another thing that surprised me in my cursory reading of the Koran was how often it slams Jews and Christians, using outright lies. It claims, for example, that Jews believe that only Jews will get into Heaven. This is so untrue. I have read a lot of book on Jewish theology, and the Jewish belief is that righteous (but not necessarily Jewish) people will share in the World to Come.

Yes, the Qur'an is full of lies, and several of its suras are evil. I make no defence of that text, except to point out a bit lamely that a few of them are only semicanonical in Islam (like sura 24) and/or are tentatively viewed as forgeries in Western scholarship (like sura 48). But no-one has made that case for sura 3. Or, worse, sura 47.

175 Athos  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:46:53pm

re: #143 zombie

The problem for me is that I have absolutely no personal experience with actual racists or KKK members or anything like that. To me, they're like monsters is a horror film. I only read about them as some distant evil.

I do. When my family moved from Toronto to Lake Jackson, Tx in 1965 (first experience in the US), it was a complete and utter shock to me. Schools were still segregated there - as were bathrooms, water fountains, etc. The Civil Rights Act hadn't taken effect and the rednecks there, KKK and Birchers for the most part, were fighting it all of the way.

Having a German name, we were instantly 'Krauts' and 'Nazis' - unwanted, different, and to be intimidated. A step above the others - but still 'inferior'. I learned to fight evil there - by punching the biggest bully as hard as I could as often as I could. The thing is - one on one, almost all were cowards. Outside of the pack - they were nothing.

The fringe today is like that. The pack attacks us and Charles, but individually, they are so morally and intellectually repugnant and bankrupt they know that their future remains in the slime of the fringe.

I don't have to see them or know them - like the euro-trash / fascists - but I know they are there and what they are trying to do....and it motivates me even more to stand against them with all that I have. The KKK, the Birchers, the Paulbots, fundamentally, they are no different than the rabid el cubos of the hard left. They stand against all that we should value.

176 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:46:56pm

re: #170 rawmuse

"Odoacer the Ostrogoth"
Should have claimed that as my nic...

Odoacer wasn't an Ostrogoth though, he was King of the Turcilingi.

177 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:47:00pm

re: #83 BigPapa
With all due respect, "I'm just shocked at how polarizing these times are." is an understatement in two ways:first of all, "these times" started, at a minimum when Bush was elected in 2000 and accelerated in 2004, but a lot of the "polarization" was coming from the Left. I can recall no legislative initiatives while Bush was POTUS and the LEFT controlled congress. Now the LEFT sees and believes it's their time. The polarization does no one in this country ANY GOOD AT ALL. BDS was a truly TERRIBLE THING. And ODS is also rapidly on its way to being a truly TERRIBLE THING.

178 LGoPs  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:48:29pm

re: #148 Cato the Elder

Fox teevee is disproving that assertion, day by day and hour by hour.

The Democratic Party once was a great party, back in the day's of JFK and Humphrey, Jackson, Nunn and Miller. No longer. They are a party that stands for everything that is antithetical to what this country is. [snip]

Traitors, in other words? Un-American? Not worthy of their citizenship?

You are talking about nearly everyone in my family, along with more than half the voting population.

That's an awful big chunk of America you're willing to disown

Fox compared to CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, Comedy Central (Daily Show, Colbert), Time, Newsweek, NYT, LAT and just about every other paper other than the Wall street Journal. Not much balance to be seen there.

Which is the Party that stated repeatedly during the Iraq War that the war was lost; that Bush started the war to make money for his friends; that our soldiers were comparable to the Nazis and Pol Pot; which party from the beginning fought against missile defense and is now ready to kill it. Which party blamed Bush for allowing Katrina's destruction and insinuated that he did it because he hates blacks. Which party fights tooth and nail against any types of reasonable voter ID rules; which party openly supports ACORN and it's demonstrably fraudulent voting activites; which party wants to seize control of the Census and make it a political operation in order to permanently put in the fix. Which party has had a stranglehold on the American education system that is turning out functional illiterates and drop outs. Which party wants to replace the concept of Equality of Opportunity with Equality of Outcome - reducing everyone to the least common denominator
The Democrat Party has done all these things.
Your family and it's voting patterns are your concern and I've said nothing against them.
My parents fought the Soviets and escaped to this country with me as an infant. And the values I believe in are not the ones that are listed above. I do not disown my fellow citizens - those are your words. But I disagree passionately with what the Democratic party has come to represent.

179 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:49:09pm

re: #176 ArchangelMichael

Odoacer wasn't an Ostrogoth though, he was King of the Turcilingi.

Srsly? Don't make me go all Wiki on ya...

180 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:50:23pm

re: #160 Cato the Elder

A lot of people are taking it personally, as if he were calling them out. And maybe the reactions he's getting show that he actually is. There's an awful lot of defensiveness in the heat and hate he's taking.

Absolutely. They got to work it all out. Let it all out kids, let it go. I hope some can find redemption after the release.

181 capitalist piglet  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:50:55pm

re: #147 realwest

And the Tea Parties - because there were so many people who were SO angry about federal spending, taxing, failing to do what the Federal Government should do, they in fact SCARED the Left. As you noted, Republicans and moderate or conservative voters don't "do" demonstrations or parades very much.

Absolutely. If anyone doesn't think Washington is getting the message, just look at how the media tried to tear the Tea Parties down, and how Obama had his press secretary say he wasn't even aware of them. I'm sorry - that is not possible. It did scare the Left. That's why liberals are trying every trick in the book to discourage it.

182 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:51:29pm

re: #115 avanti
Yes I would have thought you'd heard about that one.
It was at the beginnings of the primaries when Hillary was starting to go on the attack; iirc, it was in fact an "annonymous" Hillary staffer who provided the quote. But if you google it you'll find it.

183 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:51:38pm

re: #179 rawmuse

Srsly? Don't make me go all Wiki on ya...

Well from what I understand there is controversy on this between several possible tribes, but Ostrogoths weren't one of them. They had their own Kingdom in Illyrium at the time and the Visigoths had already packed up and moved into Gaul and Iberia.

184 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:51:43pm

re: #171 laZardo

Conversely, I have been harangued about English being my first language over Tagalog/Filipino. With the rise of the call center industry here (who says outsourcing isn't a good thing? ;D ) English with the American accent has become more of a point of humor, but that doesn't stop it hurting whenever it's brought up.

/hurrrr.

Yeah, it works both ways. I've never had that problem being in the states all of my life. In fact my father think I sound like a "cowboy" sometimes. Hope I didn't give the impression of living through a troubled life because of racism but it was around a few time and frankly it sucks. Oddly enough it was based around "accents" at the time even though my folks learned English as soon as we landed in that 707 in Miami in 1963. Nothing major though and things have gotten so much better since the 60s.

185 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:53:51pm

re: #183 ArchangelMichael

I'll take your word for it. All I know is that they probably used a 5 or 6 note musical scale.

186 Zimriel  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:55:33pm

re: #176 ArchangelMichael

Odoacer wasn't an Ostrogoth though, he was King of the Turcilingi.

I thought Odoacer was the head of a faction of Ostros, and then Theodoric collected another band of Ostros with the Byzantines' blessing and deposed Odoacer.

/but I'm getting this from a decade-old recollection of Gary Jennings' Raptor and am not, here, speaking from authority

187 Irenike  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:55:52pm

#174 Zimriel,

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, and for your earlier apology -- no offense was taken. I like to debate!

I wish I had more time to continue talking to you, but I really ought to get some sleep. Maybe we can pick it up on another thread sometime. I wouldn't mind picking your brain a little more as I delve into this stuff.

188 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:56:07pm

re: #184 Gus 802

Over here, it seems we have the type of problem with race that perhaps justifiably entices the racialists (as I like to call them) to continue preaching what they do.

Forgive me if I sound baity, but centuries of colonization have left many Filipinos with, to put it succinctly, an obsession for skin whitener. The old "Don y Doña" hierarchies are still prevalent among the country's richest families...along with their connections in our local celebrity world. It's prompted me to want a tan as a reflexive reverse reaction.

189 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:56:26pm

re: #185 rawmuse

I'll take your word for it. All I know is that they probably used a 5 or 6 note musical scale.

I know jack and shit (and jack left town) about music before the baroque period, but what makes you say that?

190 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:56:30pm

re: #130 zombie
"Lovely, isn't it?"
No, it most definitely is not. And I think, btw, in the several comments you've made about Billy Ayers and others and fomenting social upheaval and forcing change based on racial antipathies is SPOT ON.

191 Killian Bundy  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:57:01pm

Life's rough.

/wear a helmet

192 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:57:39pm

re: #126 Gus 802

I think a lot of that is an offshoot of pride movements that were seen to mediate observed deficiencies by sociologists and popular movements. Hence, it wasn't really about promoting black accomplishments for black students for the sake of race but a means to bolster what they saw as a demoralized population. For a long time the status quo was to demean blacks and remove them from participation in society at large. That's why in effect it was important to highlight the accomplishments of other blacks for black kids as a means to motivate them into thinking that they too can accomplish greatness in the face of a post-Jim Crow culture.

I understand far too well. I've read countless essays on the topic. And it was a good idea in theory at first.

But (as with with Affirmative Action, which also was well-intentioned at its inception) the whole system has swung way out of control. Now the Self-Esteem Movement is not simply used to raise up people's self-esteem (which at this stage is high enough already), but has become a hammer to enforce "social justice." Both the "racial pride" movement and Affirmative Action have long ago accomplished their goals and have mutated to become something else altogether. Instead of helping to create a color-blind society with total equality for all people regardless of skin color, these anachronistic social programs keep race and racial divisiveness on the front burner.

And that's the whole point. I feel the people who relentlessly pursue the race issue are purposely goading the KKK and similar hate groups, purposely giving them something to feel outraged by, and trying to stir up conflict. Because without a good villain, it's impossible to move the revolution along.

193 srb1976  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:57:49pm

re: #191 Killian Bundy

Great picture...I've had days like that = )

194 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:57:54pm

re: #177 realwest

With all due respect, "I'm just shocked at how polarizing these times are." is an understatement....

Duly noted. The xDS is all nutty. I noticed it at Clinton but didn't complain too much about it because I was against his policies and didn't think he was a good leader.

It really irritated me with BDS because he was more along my political ideals. But it now I commented on the absolute idiocy of it.

Now we have ODS. If I had a problem with CDS and BDS, I should have a problem with ODS. One kicker is that OWS at the same time (Obama Worship Syndrome), but that's another thread.

The point seems to be that the deranged fringes are more destructive to us all than our counterparts on the other side of the aisle. I can reason with a centrist Dem more than a wacko rightist or leftist. Maybe this is the healthy neo-politik in this new age of hyperconnectivity.

195 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:58:05pm

re: #131 Cato the Elder
Hey Cato - why do you think that Americans shouldn't take pride in the accomplishments of other Americans?

196 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:58:29pm

re: #127 BigPapa

We read a book that basically told us by ignoring race we are being racist through ignorance.

So being anti-racist is racist? What a complete Orwellian mind screw. Strange times indeed.

Get with the program. This has been going on since the '70s.

197 Timbre  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 10:58:53pm

re: #174 Zimriel

The Bureau of Prisons has decided to keep the Darusalam editions of either Al-Bukhari, or the Qur'an (I'd have to check my notes) one, or both of which contains the essay, "The Call to Jihad." This is unbelievable in post 9-11-2001!

198 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:00:00pm

re: #135 Thanos
Money - whopping great amounts of money and the MSM on your side wins elections.

199 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:00:15pm

re: #189 ArchangelMichael

The notes in between the notes were not widely used in Europe until later, like the Renaissance. Before that, pentatonic and such.

200 KingKenrod  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:00:21pm

This story in leftist rag Newsweek points out the obvious: the left has no intention of standing by idly while conservatives destroy themselves by associating with white power idiots. They're going to magnify every seedy association.

201 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:00:44pm

re: #186 Zimriel

I thought Odoacer was the head of a faction of Ostros, and then Theodoric collected another band of Ostros with the Byzantines' blessing and deposed Odoacer.

/but I'm getting this from a decade-old recollection of Gary Jennings' Raptor and am not, here, speaking from authority

Checking wiki to see if I got my Ps and Qs in order on this as best as wiki can (I'm not an authority either), he was said to be King of the Turcilingi and leading a federation of Turcilingi, Scirii, Heruli, and "various other tribes". It also said those who referred to him as a "goth" were "probably just guessing".

202 itellu3times  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:00:55pm

re: #9 zombie

On the other side of the coin:

AP is now running pictures of World Can't Wait Maoist cult members wearing orange jumpsuits as the illustration for the current top-of-the-news story about Dems wanting to prosecute Bush officials for waterboarding. Without discussing or identifying who WCW even are.

It's the successful mainstreaming of extreme leftism coming into conflict with the attempted-but-failed mainstreaming of extreme rightism.

And here I am (everybody sing along -- you know the rest of the sentence) stuck in the middle with you.

Exactamundo. Here I am, a moderate, with no home in either party. Nothing in the middle but me and you, yellow lines, and flattened skunks.

In fact, I find this hysteria about the far right to be suspect. As the leftards get leftier with the onset of the Obamanation, it would be only cosmic justice if there were more right-wing activity, only ... I really don't see it. I mean, unless you count Huckabee or Ron Paul as new phenomena, or this new anti-evolution trend among elected leaders. But is there more Klan and Birch and neo-Nazi activity? And if there is, hasn't it just gone from 0.001% to 0.002%?

I remain skeptical.

203 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:01:23pm

re: #144 Thanos
I would posit to you that the Civil Rights Movement got things done.

204 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:02:05pm

re: #139 CheatyPantsMcSweatervest

the book was called The Dreamkeepers or something like that. It's fairly old, about 20 yrs. It was basically about how to teach black students. The section that said white teachers who ignore race are racist really blew my mind.

Now there are entire departments in major universities which teach nothing but that.

205 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:02:47pm

re: #105 BigPapa

I think the problem is we don't celebrate AMERICAN culture. It's all fine and good to point out the minorities who have helped make this country great, but in the end- they were Americans.

We also don't teach American political philosophy, such as why exactly our government was formed the way it was, with its checks and balances. Civics education in this country is pitiful. Even very educated people seem to miss this point, and it's no wonder. They weren't taught about it themselves, you see.

206 Timbre  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:03:18pm

re: #202 itellu3times

Exactamundo. Here I am, a moderate, with no home in either party. Nothing in the middle but me and you, yellow lines, and flattened skunks.

Where the skunks coming from the left side of the road, or the right, or some of both? ;)

207 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:03:27pm

Night, all.

208 LGoPs  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:04:00pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

Night, all.

Nite Falcon.........sleep well.

209 NY Nana  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:04:09pm

What really gets to me, as a Jew, is that there were quotas, for Jews...but to keep us out of the Ivies, the top Medical schools, neighborhoods, name it.

We had to work twice as hard, but that was no guarantee. My parents zt"l were not able to buy a home where they wanted to until I was 13 years of age, in 1951.

The telephone company, insurance companies, banks, etc. did not hire Jews. No one in Congress addressed this obvious discrimination, no President said a word. Little by little, the quotas were eased until they finally were dropped.

Growing up in a Boston suburb, there were restaurants that did not allow Jews to be customers, unless we didn't look Jewish, or have an obviously Jewish name. Screw them. My parents would not even try, as there were places that did not have this unwritten restriction. I am so proud of my Dad...he never even considered changing our very Jewish surname. So many kids I went to school did have a new surname.

Country clubs? No Jew allowed. Thus Jews formed their own. There were so many little things. We did not have demonstrations and/or marches.

/We did it the old-fashioned way; we earned it

I could go on and on, but am so grateful that by the 1960's, when our kids were born, except for the youngest, who was born in 1972, that they did not even have a clue as to what I had gone through. NY Grampa is from Brooklyn, and it was nothing like Boston. Two different worlds.

I resent any race, creed or religion being admitted to a university because of quotas to get them in. In 1981, when our oldest started university, there were special classes for minorities. It was eventually done away with, as it was not really doing anything. And the drop-out rate was high.

The only way we will have true equality is when everyone is treated the same. And when minority groups have to do the same work as everyone.

I remember how my grandmothers had to learn English if they wanted to do anything, and they did. They spoke Yiddish, but because of their children they went to night school...one of my grandfathers was an Anglo-Jew, from the East End, while my other granddad spoke a few languages. They both died before I was born, and I am named in their memory. My Mum was the oldest, and the first to go to university. She had to drop out when my Granddad died, as she was the oldest, and went to work to help support her family. If my Granddad did not insist that his kids spoke English I doubt that they would accomplish much.

I speak Spanish as a second language, as I was an exchange student in Mexico City on 1954, and have been trying to get through to one friend who I am concerned about, as there is no answer at their home. The others and their families are OK, thank G-d.

I have gotten to a point where I make believe I do not speak or understand Spanish, as where we live there are ESL courses, and the kids really do not learn English, and their parents feel no need to learn.

Hussein has already, in his first 100 days, caused a divide here that will soon remind me of my childhood. And it is not by accident, either. He scares me more than anyone who was in the Oval Office in my life.

Our country has become known for its' equality, which took so long to accomplish, and now I fear he intends to destroy it.

Pardon the rant, but I really see that hate is being re-branded, and it will tear us apart if we allow the Manchurian Candidate to divide us. He must not and cannot get away with it.

We are a melting pot...not a division by race, creed or religion. Appointments must be made on merit. Period.

210 srb1976  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:04:27pm

re: #205 Sharmuta

I think the problem is we don't celebrate AMERICAN culture. It's all fine and good to point out the minorities who have helped make this country great, but in the end- they were Americans.

We also don't teach American political philosophy, such as why exactly our government was formed the way it was, with its checks and balances. Civics education in this country is pitiful. Even very educated people seem to miss this point, and it's no wonder. They weren't taught about it themselves, you see.

Thank you, thank you! I was trying to come up with a coherent way to say nearly the same thing!

211 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:04:30pm

re: #192 zombie

I understand far too well. I've read countless essays on the topic. And it was a good idea in theory at first.

But (as with with Affirmative Action, which also was well-intentioned at its inception) the whole system has swung way out of control. Now the Self-Esteem Movement is not simply used to raise up people's self-esteem (which at this stage is high enough already), but has become a hammer to enforce "social justice." Both the "racial pride" movement and Affirmative Action have long ago accomplished their goals and have mutated to become something else altogether. Instead of helping to create a color-blind society with total equality for all people regardless of skin color, these anachronistic social programs keep race and racial divisiveness on the front burner.

And that's the whole point. I feel the people who relentlessly pursue the race issue are purposely goading the KKK and similar hate groups, purposely giving them something to feel outraged by, and trying to stir up conflict. Because without a good villain, it's impossible to move the revolution along.

Right. What started as something with good intentions became bastardized. The key as always is to ignore these programs and go on about ones life without regards to ones race. In the end there is only one entity to "compete" against and that is our own selves.

212 stevieray  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:05:27pm

re: #177 realwest

With all due respect, "I'm just shocked at how polarizing these times are." is an understatement in two ways:first of all, "these times" started, at a minimum when Bush was elected in 2000 and accelerated in 2004, but a lot of the "polarization" was coming from the Left. I can recall no legislative initiatives while Bush was POTUS and the LEFT controlled congress. Now the LEFT sees and believes it's their time. The polarization does no one in this country ANY GOOD AT ALL. BDS was a truly TERRIBLE THING. And ODS is also rapidly on its way to being a truly TERRIBLE THING.

The polarization is much, much older than 2000. It set down permanent roots when the Frankfurt School left Europe for America and established the Social Criticism movement. It gained steam in the turmoil of the sixties, and exploded across our college campuses in the eighties -- fueled by rage against Reagan and the nation that elected him.

The polarization won't go away, because it was purposefully created, and is consciously maintained. It will continue until American culture is destroyed and we accept the college/media/government intellectual class as our "philosopher kings", and we live in a society of elites and proles instead of equal citizens.

They will keep stirring the pot until they have their "just and due" level of power... and as far as I can tell, they see their fair share of power as "all of it".

213 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:05:32pm

re: #181 capitalist piglet
Yep. But what, no upding?!
/

214 Timbre  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:05:57pm

re: #209 NY Nana

Great post, NYN! Keep up the good work.

215 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:06:16pm

re: #174 Zimriel

Interestingly enough, the leading Qur'an for the iPhone by Guided Ways Technologies (free and paid versions, I have the former) started off with the Khan translation in the free version (the paid version offers a bunch of other choices, in the free one you get just one). There was an outcry over the explicit condemnation of Jews and Christians right in the first sura. My understanding was that Khan put that in there as an exegesis on "those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, [...] those who go astray" - i.e. that the actual text in Arabic says just what I quoted here, with no specific reference to the Peoples of the Book.

So both Muslims and non-Muslims complained, and Khan was replaced by Shakir (again, in the free version - he is still one of the multiple choices in the paid one).

Are you saying that Khan is more literal than the others?

216 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:06:24pm

re: #188 laZardo

Over here, it seems we have the type of problem with race that perhaps justifiably entices the racialists (as I like to call them) to continue preaching what they do.

Forgive me if I sound baity, but centuries of colonization have left many Filipinos with, to put it succinctly, an obsession for skin whitener. The old "Don y Doña" hierarchies are still prevalent among the country's richest families...along with their connections in our local celebrity world. It's prompted me to want a tan as a reflexive reverse reaction.

Oddly enough that sounds a lot like Argentina. Same thing with the Don y Doña" hierarchies. My grandfather thought of himself as the Don. It was mostly based on our European heritage. It's very similar and I think is based a lot on the Spaniards.

217 itellu3times  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:06:27pm

re: #141 Irenike

I'm no historian. It's late. I'm ready to sleep.

But, wasn't the Byzantine empire that the Muslims conquered in 1453 a Christian empire, since Constantine had converted to Christianity and forced all of his subjects to convert as well?

To my mind, a Christian Byzantine empire is way different from the pagan Roman Empire that fell in the late 300's or early 400's. That was my quibble with Malik's claim that Mohammed "challenged the Roman Empire." Rome had been sacked long before old Mo was even born.

The Byzantine (Eastern) Empire was a Roman Empire that Islam challenged for a thousand years, and then conquered.

The first hundred years of Islam jihad'd across North Africa, rolling up the old Roman colonies that no longer had a capital, and established conquest as a cultural as well as religious imperative.

So, I'm not sure how much Mohammed himself challenged Rome, but certainly Islam did.

And still does, if by "Rome" taken broadly, you take modern Europe.

218 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:06:29pm

This isn't about the left-right dichotomy. This has everything to do with the underlying assumptions people have about the role of government. Right-left doesn't matter, because people in both camps are confused as to government's proper role.

219 LGoPs  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:06:33pm

re: #205 Sharmuta

I think the problem is we don't celebrate AMERICAN culture. It's all fine and good to point out the minorities who have helped make this country great, but in the end- they were Americans.

We also don't teach American political philosophy, such as why exactly our government was formed the way it was, with its checks and balances. Civics education in this country is pitiful. Even very educated people seem to miss this point, and it's no wonder. They weren't taught about it themselves, you see.

I agree. Our education system is lamentable and I also think that those subjects, among others have been intentionally removed or dumbed down to the point of being without meaning. A dumbed down population, without critical thinking skills, is far easier to manipulate and lead around like sheep.

220 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:07:53pm

re: #209 NY Nana

Indeed, we are supposed to be a melting pot but lately it seems like we are a salad bar.

221 Henchman Ghazi-808  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:08:07pm

re: #205 Sharmuta

Being American is based not on being a minority or race: it's based on a mindset and political process.

The minority and genetic structures are after the fact. Some would have you believe that it's because of the differing races/cultures that's what makes America great. That is also after the fact.

However, one thing that is great about America and all the ethnic minorities: ethnic food! That's worth fighting for!

222 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:08:28pm

re: #192 zombie

I feel the people who relentlessly pursue the race issue are purposely goading the KKK and similar hate groups, purposely giving them something to feel outraged by, and trying to stir up conflict. Because without a good villain, it's impossible to move the revolution along.

Isn't that something that's out of the Saul Alinsky playbook? Rush Limbaugh, Rick Santelli and Jim Cramer were just warm-ups, apprently.

223 rawmuse  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:08:30pm

re: #209 NY Nana

The contributions of second generation Jews in 20th Century New York to the American Popular Songbook are a monument to the spirit of an entire people, the sound of America itself, for a hundred years.

224 itellu3times  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:10:03pm

re: #212 stevieray

Hey that's very depressing.

Not saying it's wrong, just depressing.

Can't we find some more positive meme to oppose and overwhelm it?

225 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:10:18pm

re: #210 srb1976

Thank you, thank you! I was trying to come up with a coherent way to say nearly the same thing!

I was thrilled earlier to see someone mention they'd picked up a copy of The Federalist Papers. We need to get back to some basics here, that power corrupts, and should be checked. Not just government power, but the people's power too.

226 Timbre  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:10:19pm

re: #223 rawmuse

The contributions of second generation Jews in 20th Century New York to the American Popular Songbook are a monument to the spirit of an entire people, the sound of America itself, for a hundred years.

My childhood hero, Benny Goodman, comes to mind. How many of his songs and solos I once knew from heart! Wonderful days...

227 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:11:38pm

re: #221 BigPapa

Being American is based not on being a minority or race: it's based on a mindset and political process.

YES! And we sadly don't teach it anymore.

228 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:12:09pm

re: #220 Pvt Bin Jammin

Indeed, we are supposed to be a melting pot but lately it seems like we are a salad bar.

It still is. Popular media will make things worse than they seem. So will political movements.

229 Killian Bundy  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:12:44pm

Any coffee people have any experience with Green Mountain Coffee?

/any good?

230 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:12:49pm

re: #216 Gus 802

Here though it's the Spaniards and the Chinese, and it seems that knowing which big family behind which big entity just comes naturally to people. The Cojuangcos of San Miguel (Beer company, Cory Aquino is the Chairman's cousin which led to some bitter political division), Lopezes of ABS-CBN (TV network), Lucio Tan of the ShoeMart mall chain, and so on.

Again, not to sound baity, but it's not hard to notice that it's given the "indios" an inferiority complex, which places me in a bit of a dilemma because I happen to have ancestors who fought in the Philippine Revolution.

231 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:12:58pm

re: #192 zombie
Yet another home run by zombie! Great post. Only one little quibble: philosophically I was against Affirmative Action from the jump - I don't think ANYONE should get a "leg up" so to speak over anyone else just because of their skin color. And while Affirmative Action was intended to help Blacks overcome years and years of second class citizenship, I always thought - this is a BAD IDEA - giving someone a higher grade or admitting someone to a school of higher learing, or giving someone a job - ALWAYS at the expense of another person, because of their respective races was intellectually a fallacy, and there had to be a better way to help Blacks surmount those obstacles. And now of course the proverbial chickens have come home to roost. Re-read Dr. King's speech and then compare what he says about charachter/skin color and reconcile THAT with Affirmative Action. Can't be done.

232 zombie  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:15:41pm

re: #188 laZardo

Over here, it seems we have the type of problem with race that perhaps justifiably entices the racialists (as I like to call them) to continue preaching what they do.

Forgive me if I sound baity, but centuries of colonization have left many Filipinos with, to put it succinctly, an obsession for skin whitener. The old "Don y Doña" hierarchies are still prevalent among the country's richest families...along with their connections in our local celebrity world. It's prompted me to want a tan as a reflexive reverse reaction.

I've read stuff about that attitude in the Philippines: the pure Spanish-blood (or mostly Spanish-blood) Filipinas are considered the most beautiful and desirable, then the half-Asians, then the mixed heritage, then the pure native tribal Filipinos, and finally at the very bottom the pygmy "negritos" who live in the mountains. (Correct me if I missed ay step.) An entirely separate racial hierarchy that has no relation to the standard Euro-American racial battles.

233 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:16:01pm

re: #229 Killian Bundy

Any coffee people have any experience with Green Mountain Coffee?

/any good?

I've had their coffee, and it's pretty good. Nothing to write home about, but it's better than Folgers.

234 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:16:09pm

re: #229 Killian Bundy

Any coffee people have any experience with Green Mountain Coffee?

/any good?

Secessionist!

/

235 haakondahl  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:16:14pm

re: #202 itellu3times

Exactamundo. Here I am, a moderate, with no home in either party. Nothing in the middle but me and you, yellow lines, and flattened skunks.

Lemme re-post this from the previous thread:

re: #495 haakondahl

re: #433 Thanos
A sure formula for the Republicans to go from "Minority Party" to "Irrelevant Party" is to witch hunt out the Republican moderates. If we don't have people who can win in populous states, we will become irrelevant to American politics.


We could hardly be less relevant than we are now. This affords us the uncomfortable luxury of housecleaning. There's a balance we need to strike between culling the herd and stampeding it.
I've had a craw-full of strident, holier-than-thou religion-in-government types, yet I am a social conservative. But I try to make my judgements from conservative first principles, rather than from religious dictates. Where the government needs to fix itself before trying to fix things it has no clue how to even operate, so do the SoCons need to live the life that they profess, and welcome fellow travellers without sniffing about for religious pedigrees.

Fiscal conservatism was obviously not an important part of our term in the White House, or the Congress. More fiscal conservatism would have netted us a better base and a far better situation to carry through the elections.

Defense hawkishness has been a mixed bag. Many of the things we did were right, but the message was communicated so poorly, when communicated at all, that we allowed the left and their media buddies to own the telling of the tale.

I remain convinced that we defeated ourselves in 2008 through not being conservative enough, but I am not talking about knee-jerk responses to hot-button issues. We have had plenty of that, poorly communicated and easily lampooned.

By not retaining the loyalty and support of huge numbers of Americans who longed for a more crunchy conservatism, well-articulated and presented as part of a sensible larger whole, we eroded the base while gaining not support but contempt from the people who will never support us anyway.

The Republican party is held in such contempt these days because it has performed contemptibly. Getting rid of the Hagel-Specter-Collins-Snowe axis will not hurt us--fewer than 40 votes in the Senate might as well be zero, and we will not recover in time to prevent the imminent re-alignment of the Supreme Court.

We stood at the one-yard line, and people like Senators McCain and Specter in the Gang of Fourteen ran the clock out in the first half. Guess what--the Democrats will not wait.

It took Newt Gingrich twenty years to prepare, and the Republicans fifteen years to execute, but we ran the board--and then surrendered. Now we will see how the truly ruthless operate. There will be no Gang of Fourteen next time.

236 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:16:18pm

re: #194 BigPapa
Well

The point seems to be that the deranged fringes are more destructive to us all than our counterparts on the other side of the aisle. I can reason with a centrist Dem more than a wacko rightist or leftist. Maybe this is the healthy neo-politik in this new age of hyperconnectivity.

from your lips to God's ears. I think the real test here is how Holder and his boss Obama handle this entire interrogation bullshit. If they don't go back in time and attack lawyers who wrote legal opinions and those who carried out those interrogations, then there's a chance. But I fear finding a centrist Democrat these days is going to be very, VERY difficult.

237 Jack Burton  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:17:04pm

re: #218 Sharmuta

This isn't about the left-right dichotomy. This has everything to do with the underlying assumptions people have about the role of government. Right-left doesn't matter, because people in both camps are confused as to government's proper role.

Which is why I'm not very optimistic about where things are going now. No one understands that "limited government" is more than a buzz-term or catch phrase. It means more than "I don't want to pay taxes" or "I want to be able to own machine guns" but no one seems to realize this anymore. In either party. This is why we are in this mess. It is mostly why the Reform Party was a joke, and any such reaction to the political situation right now (like the calls for a '3rd Party' or that Modern Whig group that Ojoe keeps plugging) is doomed to fail. People know the buzz words and have a list of things they think are "good ideas" but no one really knows why these ideas are good or bad.

The past 2 or 3 weeks, I've been losing sleep worrying about the mess we are in now and the fact that every path leading forward I can see leads to something intolerable. I don't have a solution other than to sit here and type rants about it and that's getting us nowhere fast.

238 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:17:18pm

re: #230 laZardo

Here though it's the Spaniards and the Chinese, and it seems that knowing which big family behind which big entity just comes naturally to people. The Cojuangcos of San Miguel (Beer company, Cory Aquino is the Chairman's cousin which led to some bitter political division), Lopezes of ABS-CBN (TV network), Lucio Tan of the ShoeMart mall chain, and so on.

Again, not to sound baity, but it's not hard to notice that it's given the "indios" an inferiority complex, which places me in a bit of a dilemma because I happen to have ancestors who fought in the Philippine Revolution.

That's not baity. They do that in Argentina as well. Being part "Indio" is the kiss of death so to speak. My patriarchal grandfather use to call my mom a 50/50 in Spanish -- he was implying that she had mixed blood. Needless to say he as an asshole and a Nazi sympathizer.

239 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:18:02pm

re: #228 Gus 802

You're probably right but it just makes me sick how most folks swallow every word of the popular media. I went to the bank late last Friday so the line was long. Our bank often has coffee there and one of the gals in line said what a great American thing that was to do. Another gal spoke up and said that was wrong because some cultures only drink coffee at funerals. WTF?

240 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:18:06pm

re: #230 laZardo

Who's the one behind jolibee? There's some stateside, apparently.

241 stevieray  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:18:57pm

re: #224 itellu3times

Yeah... it is depressing.

At first, their movement was about an ideology. I don't think that is true anymore, unless you are willing to define "an ideology" as, "People are too stupid to rule themselves, they need guidance from the enlightened. And we professors are just the bunch to do it."

Once academe adopted postmodernism as its governing "philosophy" (I use the term loosely there), they revealed their hand. A movement built on the idea that there is no truth, and even the pursuit of truth is oppression, no longer has any purpose other than the pursuit of power for its own sake. Once truth is gone, all that remains is power.

242 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:19:08pm

re: #195 realwest

Hey Cato - why do you think that Americans shouldn't take pride in the accomplishments of other Americans?

Anyone is free to take pride in anything he likes, for any reason. I just think placing special emphasis on where the achievement comes from is silly.

First, that taking personal pride in other people's work is an oxymoron. You'll note that I deleted that word in my "correction". What right have I to personally chuck myself under the chin because someone with, say, my last name does something wonderful? It's the height of absurdity. I had nothing to do with it.

Second, I think an accomplishment is an accomplishment and it adds nothing to know it's done by a fellow countryman. I couldn't care less how many Americans win Nobel prizes in any given year, and I care infinitely less than nothing, for example, about Olympic medals or sailing trophies or chess tournaments from the standpoint of "national pride".

I respect accomplishment by a Cuban or a Venezualan or a Russian as much as I do by an American.

The fact is, national boasting sickens me.

But then I'm funny that way. Team sports, rivalries, wins and losses, celebrations after a triumph and downcast looks after a defeat leave me absolutely cold.

243 srb1976  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:19:55pm

re: #239 Pvt Bin Jammin

You're probably right but it just makes me sick how most folks swallow every word of the popular media. I went to the bank late last Friday so the line was long. Our bank often has coffee there and one of the gals in line said what a great American thing that was to do. Another gal spoke up and said that was wrong because some cultures only drink coffee at funerals. WTF?

I think the only answer to that is "wow...good thing ours isn't one of them"
= )

244 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:19:56pm

re: #237 ArchangelMichael

Same for States' Rights. People don't bother to study the underlying philosophy, so it's easy to abuse and warp these issues into something they were not intended to be by our Founders.

245 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:20:57pm

re: #239 Pvt Bin Jammin

You're probably right but it just makes me sick how most folks swallow every word of the popular media. I went to the bank late last Friday so the line was long. Our bank often has coffee there and one of the gals in line said what a great American thing that was to do. Another gal spoke up and said that was wrong because some cultures only drink coffee at funerals. WTF?

Wow. Wrong to drink coffee. You know I can see someone saying that. I suppose drinking water would be wrong for some cultures. Or if it's not too cold when it should be warm. Some people should just shut up and deal with things.

246 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:22:29pm

re: #232 zombie

Pretty much correct there, though the distinction between the last two has started disappearing as local tourism is promoted. I suppose the only reason this hierarchy seems so separate from the Western "race wars" is because of the lack of media exposure to something like this.

re: #240 Fenway_Nation

This guy.

247 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:22:34pm

re: #243 srb1976

I think the only answer to that is "wow...good thing ours isn't one of them"
= )

Those teller were moving us out of there a little too fast that night. I really kind of wanted to find out more. LOL

248 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:22:43pm

re: #238 Gus 802


Jeez- my grandpa is from Irish stock and has said some misogynist, cringe-worthy stuff in my presence (even more cringe-worthy considering he might've actually been toning it down with the grandchildren present) yet he recalls when the KKK burned a cross in front of his family's house when he was growing up (mid 1920's, I think)...so he has no use for them, either.

249 capitalist piglet  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:23:19pm

re: #213 realwest

Yep. But what, no upding?!
/

Rats, I spaced it! I love your posts!

Done!

250 realwest  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:23:43pm

And with all that I would like to say to others out here, I must go to bed and SLEEP!
I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

251 rhino2  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:24:39pm

re: #114 realwest

So you would, I suppose, say that the 95% of Black American Voters who did in fact vote for Obama were all racists?

I wouldn't seeing as the vast majority of those votes would have been the democrat candidate no matter who it was. But if a certain % of that 95% wouldn't have voted the way they did, and only did so because they were voting for a black man, then yes, they are absolutely just as racist as I or any other white person would be if we said we voted for McCain just because he was white.

How in the world could it be any other way? Seems pretty black and white to me, if you'll excuse the pun.

252 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:24:44pm

re: #244 Sharmuta

Same for States' Rights. People don't bother to study the underlying philosophy, so it's easy to abuse and warp these issues into something they were not intended to be by our Founders.

Two words and a number on States' Rights: Strom Thurmond, 1948.

/that guy lived a freakishly long time...

253 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:25:23pm

re: #248 Fenway_Nation

Jeez- my grandpa is from Irish stock and has said some misogynist, cringe-worthy stuff in my presence (even more cringe-worthy considering he might've actually been toning it down with the grandchildren present) yet he recalls when the KKK burned a cross in front of his family's house when he was growing up (mid 1920's, I think)...so he has no use for them, either.

Used to make me boil over but getting older has been the great equalizer.

254 NY Nana  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:26:01pm

re: #214 Timbre

Thank you so much...it is just that so many have really worked hard for what they accomplished, and had to see a job go to someone who was favored not for their level of learning, and abilities, but their race.

I still believe so strongly in working hard and earning what you get, not having it handed to you. I have to wonder just what our country will be like in even the next 10 years, if Hussein manages to create The Great Divide. He is a socialist, and a huckster, and after what we saw him do to his poor little daughters re their dog, and also re no birthday or Christmas gifts? He and that bitch Michelle should be ashamed. I just wanted to take the kids and hug them.

He uses them as props...not fair! They need to have a childhood. I honestly think that the Hussein brand of child-rearing will do permanent damage. The girls need to live as normal a life as possible, and this seems that it will not be done. The Manchurian couple put themselves before their little daughters, and that is not what any of us consider parenting.

Got to go to sleep...it is nearly 2:30 AM here!

G'nite, Lizards! Sweet dreams!

255 Wendya  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:27:07pm

re: #26 zombie


When you take something to the extreme one way, there is inevitably a push-back the other way from the opposite extreme.

This is what worries me. You see this in politics when one side tilts too far to the extremes. I sure as hell don't want to see a far right version of the Obama administration.

256 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:27:15pm

re: #238 Gus 802

That's not baity. They do that in Argentina as well. Being part "Indio" is the kiss of death so to speak. My patriarchal grandfather use to call my mom a 50/50 in Spanish -- he was implying that she had mixed blood. Needless to say he as an asshole and a Nazi sympathizer.

Ouch.

Anyhoo, you said you arrived in the States in the 60s...was that mainly due to Peron?

257 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:28:53pm

re: #256 laZardo

Ouch.

Anyhoo, you said you arrived in the States in the 60s...was that mainly due to Peron?

Partly. My dad has stories about soldiers on horses with swords and rubber tubes. Mostly it was for a better life.

258 LGoPs  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:30:16pm

Night lizards

259 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:30:27pm

Lee Greenwood - God Bless The USA

260 NY Nana  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:32:49pm

re: #223 rawmuse

Yes, and in a way, I think that the prejudice actually caused them to use their talent. I remember Irving Berlin, Sophie Tucker, Al Jolson, and more than I can think of at this hour...Ethel Merman...I am not sure that all were first generation...some might be European by birth. I have a number of real records...vinyl .78's. I treasure them. Forgot Benny Goodman!

So many had to change their names back then. At least now? They can use their real names if they choose.

G'nite!

261 laZardo  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:34:39pm

re: #257 Gus 802

Ah. Same with my parents and Marcos, though they decided to bring me back here after things calmed down a bit. As mentioned above with the education...I'm questioning whether I should be homesick.

262 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:35:15pm

My parents moved to a small Nevada town in 1948, when I was about a year old. He and his business partner opened a Buick franchise there. The racism & segregation were still very prevalent there, though as kids in school, we didn't seem to have it, thank God. More than once my dad and his partner were given grief for dealing with and extending credit to the "colored" folks but they just shined everybody on. The little casino in town also hosted the Greyhound Bus station. The local afro-americans were not allowed to eat there, gamble or go to the bar but the bus patrons, no matter what color, were. My sister's best friend was afro-american and they loved to go to this little restaurant across the street from the grade school and mom and dad used to give sis the money to go once a week. Wouldn't you know it, my parents got calls from "concerned citizens" that their youngest was consorting with the "negroes" over at that little place. It was sick. Finally, around 1970, the NAACP brought in the big shots and things changed.

263 freetoken  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:36:22pm

re: #137 Tman

I think the purpose of the Tea Parties is quite obvious, protesting taxation without representation, thus the name.

Sorry, but that is part of the nuttiness that has become the "tea parties". If you are a US citizen and reside in one of the 50 states you have representation.

264 Gus  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:38:48pm

re: #261 laZardo

Ah. Same with my parents and Marcos, though they decided to bring me back here after things calmed down a bit. As mentioned above with the education...I'm questioning whether I should be homesick.

I would be homesick. I love America -- it's the only country I know.

265 krycek  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:39:27pm

re: #229 Killian Bundy

Any coffee people have any experience with Green Mountain Coffee?

/any good?

I like the Nantucket Blend from Green Mountain its comparable to Dunkin Donuts Coffee. The Extra Bold Dark Magic is also good but it might be too acidic for some people.

266 Sharmuta  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:44:02pm

re: #263 freetoken

Sorry, but that is part of the nuttiness that has become the "tea parties". If you are a US citizen and reside in one of the 50 states you have representation.

It' really stunning, isn't it?

267 freetoken  Tue, Apr 28, 2009 11:44:24pm

re: #242 Cato the Elder


The fact is, national boasting sickens me.

But then I'm funny that way. Team sports, rivalries, wins and losses, celebrations after a triumph and downcast looks after a defeat leave me absolutely cold.

Tribalism is an integral element of us.... apes.

268 gmsc  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 1:18:00am

re: #242 Cato the Elder

The fact is, national boasting sickens me.

But then I'm funny that way. Team sports, rivalries, wins and losses, celebrations after a triumph and downcast looks after a defeat leave me absolutely cold.

Sort of like this?

269 leereyno  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 1:30:41am

Love of white people?

What the hell does someone's skin color have to do with anything? A person's nature, character, and identity are not a function of melanin content or which corner of the earth their ancestors migrated here from.

These people are tribalistic scumbags, seeking to promote hatred and division based upon superficial peculiarities resulting from geographic isolation and subsequent genetic drift.

Unlike sex, race really is a social construct, one that these cretins are eager to reinforce and use to destroy our great nation from within.

270 Mad Mullah  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 2:12:05am

Don Black is also the person who contributed money to the Ron Paul campaign, and Ron Paul didn't see any problems at all with taking money from Nazis and KKK racists. Don Black is also the person who Ron Paul cheerfully posed together with for pictures along with Don Black's deliverance looking son.

271 Throbert McGee  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:53:15am

re: #153 Irenike

#129 Zimriel

Thank you for the historical explanation.

Can you recommend a standard translation of the Koran?

As far as I know, there are three translators whose English editions of the Koran are widely regarded as authoritative: Marmaduke Pickthall, Muhammad Shakir, and Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

It's common practice for English-speaking scholars to cite all three of them in parallel when referencing Koranic verses. And some online Koran translations provide all three, verse-by-verse. For example, here's the notorious verse 157 from sura 4, which slaps the "Christ killer" libel on the Jooos while simultaneously denying that Jesus was actually killed -- neat trick, that:

Y: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:

P: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

S: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

"Y" is the Yusuf Ali translation, "P" is Pickthall's, and "S" is Shakir's. (The Koran at the University of Virginia, by the way, is the Shakir translation only.)

272 Obsidiandog  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 5:58:18am

So according to the SPLC and the Obama administration, what they define as "hate" organizations is up 4%? Look who's doing the defining. They think the Republican party is a hate group. I would think with Bush out of office the number of "hate" groups would have declined drastically because we haven't seen any hate like the hate he got. Of course they still hate him.

Neo Nazis and Klan are morons.

273 Obsidiandog  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:03:27am

re: #263 freetoken
Sorry, but that is part of the nuttiness that has become the "tea parties". If you are a US citizen and reside in one of the 50 states you have representation.

I live in Illinois, my senators are Dick Durbin and Roland Burris, who succeeded Barack Obama. I'd say my representation is pretty limited.

274 Thom  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:08:21am

The flip side of all this is that any dissenters are branded as racists. Janeane Garofalo for example labeled the tea partiers as "teabagging rednecks" and racists who were out protesting only because a "black man was in the Oval Office". This trenchant analysis was of course accepted in all seriousness by the msm dolt interviewing her.

During the campaign, MSNBC played like their favorite song a poll that "showed" that college-educated whites were more likely to vote for Obama than were whites without a college education. Which made perfect sense to the liberals of the world, since anyone against Obama must be an uneducated, bible-thumping, gun-toting, racist redneck. An observation which Obama himself made in San Francisco during the campaign.

So while the kkk toasts their s'mores, lifted out of irrelevancy only by the occasional "news story" penned by someone who can't find real news to cover, the rest of us - educated, sane Americans who see Obama's far left world view as a threat to this country, not his skin color - are in real trouble: marginalized and trivialized by guilt-by-association "news items" (the kkk is against Obama - I oppose Obama as well - I'm a kkker!)

And let's not forget breathless over-exaggeration!

Indoctrination often starts on the Internet. Some crazies posting on MySpace, for instance, have called for armed revolution; at least one has referred to Barack Obama as “a dead man.”

Good lord. At least one person on a web site with how many millions of people referred to the current president as a dead man?! Clearly this indicates a rising tidal wave of racism!

275 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:17:03am

re: #215 Cato the Elder

Interestingly enough, the leading Qur'an for the iPhone by Guided Ways Technologies (free and paid versions, I have the former) started off with the Khan translation in the free version (the paid version offers a bunch of other choices, in the free one you get just one). There was an outcry over the explicit condemnation of Jews and Christians right in the first sura. My understanding was that Khan put that in there as an exegesis on "those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, [...] those who go astray" - i.e. that the actual text in Arabic says just what I quoted here, with no specific reference to the Peoples of the Book.

So both Muslims and non-Muslims complained, and Khan was replaced by Shakir (again, in the free version - he is still one of the multiple choices in the paid one).

Are you saying that Khan is more literal than the others?

Khan's translation typically intersperses the Qur'an with expository brackets and footnotes, mostly taken from the mediaeval exegete Ibn Kathir. Ibn Kathir was a follower of Ibn Taymiyya, the link between the Hanbali madhhab and the Wahhabis. That means he was an extremist Sunni who hated him some Christians and Jews.

As a commentator, Ibn Kathir is known for unimaginitively laying down the "official" meaning of the text, that is the meaning Ibn Taymiyya would have assigned to it.

There is in Qur'an commentary a stark division between the Madrassa Type, such as Ibn Kathir and also Baghawi, which lays out some interpretation for kids to memorise; and the Encyclopaedic Type, such as Tabari and Tha'labi, which pulls in as wide a selection of interpretations as they could find. I prefer the latter although, that makes their commentaries very large and unwieldy.

276 seagreenroom  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:18:08am

re: #59 Zimriel

Did you read the article? How is Obama directly to blame for the activities of racist groups?

People have to take responsibility for their own positions, but the fact is that TheOne is an extremely polarizing figure. I lived through the 60s and I think we're a more polarized nation now than we were then. TheOne is certainly a factor in that equation.

277 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:22:34am

re: #276 seagreenroom

People have to take responsibility for their own positions, but the fact is that TheOne is an extremely polarizing figure. I lived through the 60s and I think we're a more polarized nation now than we were then. TheOne is certainly a factor in that equation.

Yeah, I know. I was just objecting to his misdirected snark.

278 Zimriel  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 6:32:41am

re: #275 Zimriel

Khan's translation typically intersperses the Qur'an with expository brackets and footnotes, mostly taken from the mediaeval exegete Ibn Kathir. Ibn Kathir was a follower of Ibn Taymiyya, the link between the Hanbali madhhab and the Wahhabis. That means he was an extremist Sunni who hated him some Christians and Jews.

As an understanding of what the Qur'an says on the assumption of the mediaeval Islamic consensuses on the chronological sequence of suras and on the Prophet's life: I find little to object to in Ibn Kathir's analysis. If you argue with Ibn Kathir you are arguing with mainstream Islam (albeit taken to its logical conclusion).

Shi'a versions are a lot more fun. The Shi'a try to stick the Imams into suras where they clearly don't belong. The Shi'a used to claim that the Qur'an was edited to take the Imams out; which sounds almost reasonable, until you read what they are claiming to restore. Relation of Shi'a Theology to the Qur'an has picked out a few of these.

279 elclynn  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:07:16am

Racism has always confused me. I just don't understand it no matter where it comes from and I am glad I don't. Since I live in a democracy which believes in equality and the simple fact all men are created equal, I just live with that premise and act on it. I'm in the Ward Connerly camp when it comes to enacting the Civil Rights Laws.

280 FrogMarch  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:13:20am

There is no doubt that there is a resurgence of racist right-wing anti-black hatred in America. I think it's a small minority, but it's real and growing. Inevitable among people who have been life-long racists. But the left (Newsweek) are happy to paint all conservatives with the same broad brush. Notice the subtle pinches of propaganda going the other way.

..Home foreclosures, unemployment and an inability to obtain credit “could create a fertile recruiting environment,

So, everyone who is angry about the economy is suddenly on the verge of becoming a KKK member. Maybe I'm too politically sensitive, but that quote seems like maneuvering and manipulation to say: "if you dare disagree with Obama and the government, you must be a racist."

that said, the new friendly face on old racism must be called-out & shunned.

281 monkey den  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:17:23am

Everyone knows these groups don't have a hate problem, they have an image problem.

282 gander  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:51:12am

How Liberals Contribute to this Problem:
Denigrating white people/white culture is a popular pass time among young hip liberals. This phenomenon plays into the hands of the Storm Front types. There is after all, nothing wrong with being white, but the only people who say this are the aforementioned Storm Fronters. I just think it is unfortunate.

283 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 7:57:19am

(drive-by post)

"Rebranding" = planting a rose garden around the entrance to the sewer.
Same old crap inside.

Isn't it interesting how these scumbags scream and seeth when someone opens the manhole cover and lets daylight in?

/"roses" my ass !

284 jill e  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:04:30am

"All concerns of men go wrong when they wish to cure evil with evil." —SOPHOCLES

285 Liberal Classic  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:18:55am

re: #30 Rich H

Is America degenerating into Weimar Germany?

No, but not for the reason you think.

These people have always been with us, and always will.

286 wonk-a-donk  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:20:00am

For the Obamatrons building their foundation on the self-proclaimed "Rock of Obama", it's more like the Treasury Department churning out currency that's turning directly into oceans of sand.

287 cicero05  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:47:44am

Newsweek has been in the process of rebranding itself as a leftist opinion publication (making official what has long been true anyway). This article is no doubt part of its Axelrod-approved effort to blur the distinction between a few crackpots holding silly meetings in the piney woods of Arkansas and the conservative movement in general. Has anyone noticed this meme being flogged anywhere else? Like the fact-free DHS memo warning of the danger of conservative extremists? The attacks on Rush Limbaugh? The efforts to paint the tea parties as gathering of racist kooks? Hmmm.

The absence of any hard facts in the article (and I don't consider a Southern Poverty Law Center count of purported names of crank organizations to be a "hard fact") makes it clear that it's just another heaping shovel-full of alarmist MSM bullshit bearing the 0bama seal of approval. Frankly, it wasn't worthy of mention here.

288 Liberal Classic  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:50:08am

re: #218 Sharmuta


This isn't about the left-right dichotomy. This has everything to do with the underlying assumptions people have about the role of government. Right-left doesn't matter, because people in both camps are confused as to government's proper role.


re: #237 ArchangelMichael


Which is why I'm not very optimistic about where things are going now. No one understands that "limited government" is more than a buzz-term or catch phrase. It means more than "I don't want to pay taxes" or "I want to be able to own machine guns" but no one seems to realize this anymore. In either party. This is why we are in this mess. It is mostly why the Reform Party was a joke, and any such reaction to the political situation right now (like the calls for a '3rd Party' or that Modern Whig group that Ojoe keeps plugging) is doomed to fail. People know the buzz words and have a list of things they think are "good ideas" but no one really knows why these ideas are good or bad.


There are three great political traditions in the United States of America. The first believes in government as sacred trust. This tradition originated in New England. The second tradition believes in government as the protector of virtue. It has its roots in the Antebellum South. The third believes government as a necessary evil. It is most closely associated with the Old West.

The two major parties in existence at any one time have represented all three of these political traditions to various extents. In a political party one tradition typically becomes dominant over the other two. As time goes by, and people's views change, the parties change to reflect the desires of the electorate in a sort of political evolution.

Right now the Democrats have adopted the mantle of the sacred trust. The present themselves as defenders of the weak and promise security. The Republicans, on the other hand, have adopted the mantle of the protector of virtue. They style themselves as defenders of traditional moral values and promise order. At the moment, neither party is strongly influenced by the third tradition and cautions as Geo. Washington did that government, like fire, is a dangerous servant and fearful master.

The fault lies with us, the electorate. In general, people are asking the government more and more for security and order, and asking for freedom less. We are getting the government that we demand. In order for the government to change direction, we the people have to change direction.

289 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:57:13am

re: #268 gmsc

Sort of like this?

That's me!

290 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 8:59:34am

re: #275 Zimriel

Khan's translation typically intersperses the Qur'an with expository brackets and footnotes, mostly taken from the mediaeval exegete Ibn Kathir. Ibn Kathir was a follower of Ibn Taymiyya, the link between the Hanbali madhhab and the Wahhabis. That means he was an extremist Sunni who hated him some Christians and Jews.

As a commentator, Ibn Kathir is known for unimaginitively laying down the "official" meaning of the text, that is the meaning Ibn Taymiyya would have assigned to it.

There is in Qur'an commentary a stark division between the Madrassa Type, such as Ibn Kathir and also Baghawi, which lays out some interpretation for kids to memorise; and the Encyclopaedic Type, such as Tabari and Tha'labi, which pulls in as wide a selection of interpretations as they could find. I prefer the latter although, that makes their commentaries very large and unwieldy.

That's very informative. Thanks.

291 chukardog  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:01:19am

Excuse me while I stifle a yawn. these groups are tiny compared to the massive amounts of socialist zombies roaming the streets. There will always be a few fringe kooks like these guys but their numbers are laughable. People on the right side of the politicial spectrum are not immune to falling for crap like this ,but they are far less likely than the liberal drones we have today.
yet another attempt to marginalize the right by tying us to a few nutballs. Tired. Old. Lame.

292 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:24:44am

re: #291 chukardog

Excuse me while I stifle a yawn. these groups are tiny compared to the massive amounts of socialist zombies roaming the streets. There will always be a few fringe kooks like these guys but their numbers are laughable. People on the right side of the politicial spectrum are not immune to falling for crap like this ,but they are far less likely than the liberal drones we have today.
yet another attempt to marginalize the right by tying us to a few nutballs. Tired. Old. Lame.

The article doesn't say one word about "tying the right to these groups."

293 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:25:45am

The amount of denial going around these days is pretty incredible.

294 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 9:30:41am

re: #293 Charles

The amount of denial going around these days is pretty incredible.

Maybe now would be a good time to re-post that charming photograph of Ron Paul and Don Black? Sunlight is a good disinfectant for these vermin.

295 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 10:11:58am

re: #294 Kenneth

Maybe now would be a good time to re-post that charming photograph of Ron Paul and Don Black? Sunlight is a good disinfectant for these vermin.

That would only start another round of denial -- "he didn't know who they were! he gets his picture taken with lots of people!"

There is a definite push to mainstream Ron Paul going on -- it's even happening here at LGF. Just take a look through the comments at the end of this thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

296 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 10:35:23am

re: #295 Charles

It's your call, but my attitude is to shove it in their faces. Ron Paul is a crypto-racist Jew-hating extremist. If the GOP embraces him, they are doomed to lose the next general election: Obama will win by a landslide in 2012. Did anybody read why Arlen Specter jumped parties? He was fed up with the lurch to the far right in the Republican Party.

297 Thom  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 10:51:59am
Did anybody read why Arlen Specter jumped parties? He was fed up with the lurch to the far right in the Republican Party.

(See? It works)

But, no, he was afraid of losing the Republican primary.

298 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 11:06:04am

re: #297 Thom

But yes. He didn't want to loose to a more conservative candidate in the Republican primary elections, because the the GOP has moved to the right. Maybe he knows enough about his state to conclude such a candidate would only go on to lose the election to the Democratic candidate?

299 Thom  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 11:14:09am

298 Kenneth

The Republican party hasn't changed (unless they have a new, right-wing radicalized platform that I somehow missed), but the electorate is steadily lurching to the left. That is the trend Specter knows very well and so in an attempt to cling to his senate seat (let's face it - that is his only core conviction) he switched parties.

300 Kenneth  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 11:54:25am

re: #299 Thom

I'm not saying I agree with Specter's decision to jump parties or his positions. But he does have a point, that in Pennsylvania a more conservative candidate would win the GOP primary but lose the general election.

301 Land Shark  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 12:42:52pm

re: #300 Kenneth

I think a more Conservative candidate can win, but he must strong on fiscal restraint and small government. The GOP's ill-advised move away from these positions is the primary reason they lost the last 2 elections. These are the core positions they must re-claim to win.

Ronald Reagan won 2 terms in spite of being very socially conservative. He won because he was seen as fiscally responsible and for small government. Given how the Democrats are light years away from those positions these days, the GOP can differentiate itself and offer a true alternative to the reckless spending we see going on today.

302 unpaidbills  Wed, Apr 29, 2009 2:57:39pm

"Don Black"

LOL that's ironic!

303 Hawaii69  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:13:27am

re: #136 BigPapa

Being in Hawaii, the Kau Inoa movement that is promoting a process to create a separate Hawaiian nation. This bothers me on so many levels.

Create? I think the word is "restore"


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