Texas Creationist School Board Chairman Gets the Boot

Science • Views: 13,916

Republican Governor Rick Perry appointed Don McLeroy twice as chairman of the Texas State Board of Education, in a sustained effort to sneak the teaching of creationism into public schools, but tonight the confirmation of the creationist dentist is reportedly dead in the water.

The confirmation of State Board of Education Chairman Don McLeroy is dead in the water, Sen. Mike Jackson, R-La Porte, said Thursday.

Jackson, chairman of the Senate Nominations Committee, said McLeroy will be left pending in committee because there is enough opposition on the floor of the Senate to block his confirmation, which requires approval of two-thirds of the senators.

There are too many other important issues to take up on the floor to waste time on a doomed confirmation, Jackson said.

UPDATE at 4/30/09 9:16:19 pm:

But now the extreme right religious fanatics in the Texas BOE are setting their sights on the public school Social Studies curriculum.

TFN has obtained the names of “experts” appointed by far-right state board members. Those panelists will guide the revision of social studies curriculum standards for Texas public schools. They include David Barton of the fundamentalist, Texas-based group WallBuilders, whose degree is in religious education, not the social sciences, and the Rev. Peter Marshall of Peter Marshall Ministries in Massachusetts, who suggests that California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina were divine punishments for tolerance of homosexuality.

Barton, former vice chairman of the Texas Republican Party, is a self-styled “historian” without any formal training in the field. He argues that separation of church and state is a “myth” and that the nation’s laws should be based on Scripture. He says, for example, that the Bible forbids taxes on income and capital gains. Yet even such groups as Texas Baptists Committed and the Baptist Joint Committee have sharply criticized Barton’s interpretations of the Constitution and history.

Barton also acknowledges having used in his publications and speeches nearly a dozen quotes he has attributed to the nation’s Founders even though he can’t identify any primary sources showing that they really said them.

Some state board members have criticized what they believe are efforts to overemphasize the contributions of minorities in the nation’s history. It is alarming, then, that in 1991 Barton spoke at events hosted by groups tied to white supremacists. He later said he hadn’t known the groups were “part of a Nazi movement.”

In addition, Barton’s WallBuilders Web site suggests as a “helpful” resource the National Association of Christian Educators/Citizens for Excellence in Education, an organization that calls public schools places of “social depravity” and “spiritual slaughter.”

The Peter Marshall Ministries Web site includes Marshall’s commentaries sharply attacking Muslims, characterizing the Obama administration as “wicked,” and calling on Christian parents to reject public education for their children.

Marshall has also attacked Roman Catholic and mainline Protestant churches. In his call for a spiritual revival in America last year, he called traditional mainline Protestantism an “institutionally fossilized, Bible-rejecting shell of Christianity.”

Another GOP politician who pals around with David Barton: Bobby Jindal.

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296 comments
1 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:06:28pm

A kick in the teeth and the ass, what a twofer!

2 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:08:24pm

Yes! Now they have to make sure they don't put in another nutcase in his place.

3 Macker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:08:40pm

So which bus was he thrown under?

4 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:10:50pm

That's good news. Now we need to get the rest of the crazies off the Texas State Board of Education.

April 30: The Texas State Board of Education is set to appoint a social studies curriculum “expert” panel that includes absurdly unqualified ideologues who are hostile to public education and argue that laws and public policies should be based on their narrow interpretations of the Bible.

TFN has obtained the names of “experts” appointed by far-right state board members. Those panelists will guide the revision of social studies curriculum standards for Texas public schools. They include David Barton of the fundamentalist, Texas-based group WallBuilders, whose degree is in religious education, not the social sciences, and the Rev. Peter Marshall of Peter Marshall Ministries in Massachusetts, who suggests that California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina were divine punishments for tolerance of homosexuality.[Link: tfnblog.wordpress.com...]

5 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:12:19pm

re: #2 Gus 802

Yes! Now they have to make sure they don't put in another nutcase in his place.

There seems to be something in the water that politicians drink down there, likely the next one will be better at hiding the agenda.

6 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:12:39pm

re: #3 Macker

So which bus was he thrown under?

The Science Bus.

7 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:13:09pm

re: #4 jaunte

That's good news. Now we need to get the rest of the crazies off the Texas State Board of Education.

Good grief.

And don't forget the other major GOP politician who pals around with David Barton of Wallbuilders -- Bobby Jindal.

8 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:13:29pm

re: #5 FurryOldGuyJeans

There seems to be something in the water that politicians drink down there, likely the next one will be better at hiding the agenda.

Correct, the stealth creationists. There's a couple of other creationists in that board and in fact one of the women on that board might in fact be worse than McLeroy. I forgot her name.

9 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:13:58pm

re: #3 Macker

So which bus was he thrown under?

The bus to reality.

10 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:14:24pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

The bus to reality.

The ClueBus! /

11 hazzyday  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:15:44pm

Good News for Modern Man

12 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:16:02pm

re: #6 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Science Bus.

The Science Bus&trade ...the bus that shows you, reproducibly, how it works.

/

13 CommonCents  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:16:51pm

re: #5 FurryOldGuyJeans

There seems to be something in the water that politicians drink down there, likely the next one will be better at hiding the agenda.

There are kooks all over the country, even here in Michigan. It would appear there are enough sane folks in the state legislature to hold the gate closed.

14 KingKenrod  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:16:52pm

Well, the story says Gov Perry can replace McLeroy with someone else from the board to serve until 2011, so there's a good chance someone even less qualified than McLeroy will be chairman.

15 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:17:42pm

re: #7 Charles

Good grief.

And don't forget the other major GOP politician who pals around with David Barton of Wallbuilders -- Bobby Jindal.

The GOP certainly wants to be known as the Party of No.

No Brains, that is.

16 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:18:33pm

I've never heard of this Barton guy, but when the Baptists think you're a nut, you've got to be pretty far gone.

17 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:19:02pm

re: #7 Charles

This piece about Barton contains a statement about associating with extremists without really endorsing their views, which we've heard recently.

In 1991 Barton addressed the Rocky Mountain Bible Retreat of Pastor Pete Peters' Scriptures for America, a group that espouses the racist "Christian Identity" theology. Advocates of this bizarre dogma insist that white Anglo-Saxons are the "true" chosen people of the Bible and charge that today's Jews are usurpers. Aside from being a virulent anti-Semite, Peters has advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. According to the Anti-Defamation League, other speakers at the event included white supremacist leader and 1992 presidential candidate James "Bo" Gritz, a leader of the radical and increasingly violent militia movement, and Malcolm Ross, a Holocaust denier from Canada. In November of that same year, Barton spoke at Kingdom Covenant College in Grants Pass, Oregon, another "Christian Identity" front group with ties to Peters.4

Asked to explain these actions, Barton's reply amounted to a not very creative "I didn't know they were Nazis" dodge. In a July 1993 letter, Barton assistant Kit Marshall wrote, "At the time we were contacted by Pete Peters, we had absolutely no idea that he was 'part of the Nazi movement.' He contacted us for David to speak for Scriptures for America. The title is quite innocuous. In all the conversations that I personally had with Pete Peters, never once was there a hint that they were part of a Nazi movement. I would also like to point out that simply because David Barton gives a presentation to a group of people does not mean that he endorses all their beliefs."5 An excuse like that might have washed one time, but it stretches the bounds of credulity to accept that Barton was twice duped by innocuous-sounding extremist organizations.
[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

18 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:19:12pm

re: #13 CommonCents

There are kooks all over the country, even here in Michigan. It would appear there are enough sane folks in the state legislature to hold the gate closed.

Romans used to believe the legions would keep the barbarians at bay.

There is never any excuse to relax one's vigil with respect to those who want to take over and pervert the Republic.

19 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:19:12pm

re: #14 KingKenrod

Well, the story says Gov Perry can replace McLeroy with someone else from the board to serve until 2011, so there's a good chance someone even less qualified than McLeroy will be chairman.

There is no one less qualified than Don McLeroy.

20 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:19:47pm

They're not just targeting science- they're targeting history as well to promote their "Christian nation" meme. Shameless.

21 Miss Molly  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:19:57pm

Oh no -- not again! Just when you think maybe you have all these "creationists" in a box and all is quiet, one of them pops up and starts the dust storm all over one more time. Will this ever end?

22 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:20:27pm

I will not allow these people to hijack my Founders!

23 Salamantis  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:20:37pm

It's like playing friggin' whack-a-mole; every time we manage to get rid of one of these guys, up springs another.

24 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:20:50pm

And here's one for all the creationists who are bound to come out to play: Africans Most Genetically Varied People on Earth

25 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:21:50pm

For anyone who would like to brush up on American history around the Revolution, I recommend Gordon S Wood.

26 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:22:14pm

re: #24 doppelganglander

And here's one for all the creationists who are bound to come out to play: Africans Most Genetically Varied People on Earth

You are soooo just laying the bait .. spiking the trap and wiggling the little fishie in front of it !

27 CommonCents  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:22:33pm

re: #18 FurryOldGuyJeans

Romans used to believe the legions would keep the barbarians at bay.

There is never any excuse to relax one's vigil with respect to those who want to take over and pervert the Republic.

I agree with that. I'm just saying that McElroy was denied confirmation which shows there are currently enough reasonable folks on the watch.

28 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:23:23pm

re: #23 Salamantis

It's like playing friggin' whack-a-mole; every time we manage to get rid of one of these guys, up springs another.

Well, I've got strong arms: so let's get to whacking!

29 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:23:42pm

re: #27 CommonCents

I agree with that. I'm just saying that McElroy was denied confirmation which shows there are currently enough reasonable folks on the watch.

Reason hasnt gone on holiday. Its just been sat on by people with enormous buttocks .. and a pervasive odor.

30 CommonCents  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:24:50pm

re: #25 Sharmuta

...I recommend Gordon S Wood.

did you intend to post this on the previous thread?

31 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:25:03pm

re: #14 KingKenrod

Well, the story says Gov Perry can replace McLeroy with someone else from the board to serve until 2011, so there's a good chance someone even less qualified than McLeroy will be chairman.

A dentist, someone who should be trained in the empirical scientific method, who was pushing narrowly defined religious dogma. Hard to find ANYONE who can get that stupid.

32 Emerald  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:25:13pm

Guess it's too easy to just pull your kids out of public schools and keep them ignorant at home.

33 Shug  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:26:04pm
The confirmation of State Board of Education Chairman Don McLeroy is dead in the water

Don, ook on the bright side

in 25 million years, your nomination will be Black Gold. ....Texas Tea

34 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:26:05pm

re: #30 CommonCents

No- that is the man's name. Not his fault. He's an excellent historian.

35 doppelganglander  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:26:09pm

re: #26 Buster Bunny

You are soooo just laying the bait .. spiking the trap and wiggling the little fishie in front of it !

Sadly, it's way past my bedtime and I can't stay for the festivities. Night, ya'll.

36 pat  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:26:43pm

They have created a 'science' out of nothing. A slightly different approach than the strange Green movement, but about as reality based. America was basically a rationalist nation for 200 years. We have now become a play station for nut cases.

37 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:26:46pm

re: #32 Emerald

Guess it's too easy to just pull your kids out of public schools and keep them ignorant at home.

That's not the point. They're already brainwashing their own children.

They want to brainwash everyone else's children too.

38 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:27:21pm

re: #27 CommonCents

I agree with that. I'm just saying that McElroy was denied confirmation which shows there are currently enough reasonable folks on the watch.

Maybe enough just got disgusted with the idiot making Texans look like a bunch turnip truck hicks. That could change all too quick with the next appointee.

39 jorline  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:27:26pm

re: #28 Dark_Falcon

Well, I've got strong arms: so let's get to whacking!

I thought you may have moved threads.

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

Evening Gents. I had another long day but I was able to get enough sales to make almost all my quotas, and I have done well enough to keep my job. It took working on two days off to do it, but I increased my sales by 60% versus last month.

Congrats Dark...that's great news!

I know you've been worried lately...take the weekend off and enjoy yourself, you deserve it. Tell them you'll start on the new quotas May 4th.

40 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:28:02pm

Ha! They've been going after social studies with a similar crew.

41 stonemason  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:29:00pm

So maybe cooler heads are begining to prevail, this is a good sign. Now, when will the 'moderate' leftists reign in the loons over there? I do not see the President denouncing the desires of the move-on types to prosecute former administrations officials for keeping us safe.

Politicians like Jindal and Perry are a direct result of the insanity on the left, we humans are creatures of extremeism, left followed by right followed by left, pendulum swings.

Science wins in this case, as it should, but when will science win in the climate change 'debate', or is it settled, a consensus, and not to be questioned?

Extremes, on both sides, but right right now the left holds the floor, so those extremes are not seen as such, and with each passing day, those extremes are percieved as less extreme while the extremes on the right seem even more outlandish.

Ii is impossible to argue that as a Nation we have moved left from inception on, and will continue to do so until such time as necessary for another change, another watering of the tree of liberty, it is just cyclical history cycling.

42 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:29:40pm
43 Shug  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:31:42pm

NASA needs to send a bunch of surplus astronauts over to Austin to fill the school board

44 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:35:12pm

re: #40 Gus 802

Ha! They've been going after social studies with a similar crew.

They should really get creationists into the math curriculum. That way all those mathematicians and archaeologists could finally find out that whatever the questions .. x is always equal to 6000.

45 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:36:14pm

Keep yore hands offa ma history!

Actually, my children don't take social studies. They take history and geography.

46 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:36:18pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

They're not just targeting science- they're targeting history as well to promote their "Christian nation" meme. Shameless.

This looks interesting. Recommended by a commenter at the TFN site linked above:
Liars For Jesus: The Religious Right's Alternate Version of American History
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

47 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:36:25pm

People familiar with the situation in Texas are aware that creationists have been targeting other parts of the curriculum. I've read about their suggested changes to earth science and space science classes, but this is the first I've read about social studies.

48 pat  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:36:29pm

re: #43 Shug

Yeah. so they can teach about space aliens. lol

49 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:36:53pm

re: #48 pat

Yeah. so they can teach about space aliens. lol

Primary source?

///

50 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:37:16pm

re: #39 jorline

I thought you may have moved threads.

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

Evening Gents. I had another long day but I was able to get enough sales to make almost all my quotas, and I have done well enough to keep my job. It took working on two days off to do it, but I increased my sales by 60% versus last month.

Congrats Dark...that's great news!

I know you've been worried lately...take the weekend off and enjoy yourself, you deserve it. Tell them you'll start on the new quotas May 4th.

Nope, I'm on both threads. I'll be starting on the quotas May 2nd; May Saturdays are too big to take more than one off. I want to get ahead of my quotas so I can take my scheduled days off later in the month.

51 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:37:27pm

re: #43 Shug

NASA needs to send a bunch of surplus astronauts over to Austin to fill the school board

There are a few nutcases who are ex-astronauts as well. One recently came out and said he had proof the guvmint was hiding the truth about aliens from outer space.

52 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:38:01pm

re: #44 Buster Bunny

They should really get creationists into the math curriculum. That way all those mathematicians and archaeologists could finally find out that whatever the questions .. x is always equal to 6000.

I can see it now. Creationist "scientist" scratching his chin...

"Well Don, I'm not sure how old this rock is but one thing's for sure, it can't be more than around than 3000.0001 years. Even if we double its age it still can't be older than 6000 years.

//

53 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:38:24pm

re: #51 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are a few nutcases who are ex-astronauts as well. One recently came out and said he had proof the guvmint was hiding the truth about aliens from outer space.

Edgar Mitchell?

54 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:39:44pm

re: #39 jorline Hey there my friend - you've got mail! LOL!

55 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:40:10pm

I think this is just a "f@#$-you" gesture from Perry at this point. If Perry were serious about creating conservative standards for social-studies, he has a large state with a lot of serious conservatives in it to choose from. But he didn't choose a serious conservative; he chose a weirdo. You can't tell me he didn't know he was a weirdo.

56 Dr. Shalit  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:40:38pm

Charles & All Lizardim -

My belief in a Creator G-d Does Not Exclude Evolution. If anything, it shows the wisdom of a creator "who" can allow for it - and - Other "Creations" in other places as well. I look forward to meeting my siblings of the cosmos should they be able to make it to here or we to make it to "there."

-S-

57 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:41:30pm

re: #53 Gus 802

Edgar Mitchell?

I don't remember since I only heard the bit of news in passing and only heard "ex-astronaut" and "believes space aliens have been visiting earth for decades and nearly all the world's governments are participating in a conspiracy of silence".

/ well, something to that effect, really ;)

58 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:41:43pm
Some state board members have criticized what they believe are efforts to overemphasize the contributions of minorities in the nation’s history.

What?

59 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:42:29pm

re: #32 Emerald
Sorry but I hadda ding you down on that one - I think it IS the parent's responsibility to teach their children about morality and religion or non-religion as they see fit.
What I object to is the use of PUBLIC SCHOOLS to try to teach creationism - as science at least.

60 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:42:43pm

re: #57 FurryOldGuyJeans

"Conspiracy of silence"
If ever there was a crock of dung, that is it.
Have you ever tried to get 2 people to keep a secret? OK, how about one?
How did that work out?

61 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:42:43pm

re: #58 Slumbering Behemoth

I guess they weren't thinking about Republicans.

62 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:42:51pm
He argues that separation of church and state is a “myth” and that the nation’s laws should be based on Scripture.

Our Founders are rolling in their graves! The very last thing they wanted was a country ruled by Scripture. Been there done that- and they heeded the lessons of such forms of government and utterly rejected them. It goes completely against the Enlightenment and everything the Founders stood for. Freedom of Conscience was paramount for them.

63 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:42:56pm

re: #58 Slumbering Behemoth

Some people are total fucking whack-jobs when it comes to "keeping them people in their place".

64 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:43:32pm

re: #56 Dr. Shalit

Charles & All Lizardim -

My belief in a Creator G-d Does Not Exclude Evolution. If anything, it shows the wisdom of a creator "who" can allow for it - and - Other "Creations" in other places as well. I look forward to meeting my siblings of the cosmos should they be able to make it to here or we to make it to "there."

-S-

I'm with you. The Universe is too big for there not to be life on other planets. I just don't think that they've gotten here yet, at least not to Roswell.

//Would it be too much to ask if they could drive snazzy spaceships and make a dramatic entrance? Probably. Sigh. I've been spoiled by Hollywood.

65 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:43:37pm

re: #46 jaunte

This looks interesting. Recommended by a commenter at the TFN site linked above:
Liars For Jesus: The Religious Right's Alternate Version of American History
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Second book in 24 hours you've helped me with. Thanks.

66 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:43:58pm

re: #60 rawmuse

"Conspiracy of silence"
If ever there was a crock of dung, that is it.
Have you ever tried to get 2 people to keep a secret? OK, how about one?
How did that work out?

I'm just relating the news report I heard in passing, I am not saying I believed it. ;)

67 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:44:20pm

re: #58 Slumbering Behemoth

What?

If you spend much time at AmRen, you'll learn that a peeve of the white-nationalists is that kids spend too much time learning about inspiring stories concerning blacks (Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, George Washington Carver etc) and not enough time learning about whitewestern culture.

68 jaunte  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:44:20pm

re: #65 Sharmuta

Maybe we should organize a lizard lending library.

69 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:44:22pm

re: #41 stonemason
" it is just cyclical history cycling." Well I wish they'd peddle faster, cause Pelosi, Reid and Obama are getting harder to take by the day!

70 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:44:48pm

re: #66 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know, my questions were rhetorical. :)

71 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:45:13pm

re: #57 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't remember since I only heard the bit of news in passing and only heard "ex-astronaut" and "believes space aliens have been visiting earth for decades and nearly all the world's governments are participating in a conspiracy of silence".

/ well, something to that effect, really ;)

Yeah, it's him.

He was always weird and kind of off his rocker. He performed that ESP "experiment" on the moon (Apollo 11) while Alan Shepard was sleeping.

I won't even read what he has to say. I can't stand that UFO bunk and Edgar Mitchell is just nuts.

72 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:45:20pm
73 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:45:33pm

re: #71 Gus 802

Yeah, it's him.

He was always weird and kind of off his rocker. He performed that ESP "experiment" on the moon (Apollo 11) while Alan Shepard was sleeping.

I won't even read what he has to say. I can't stand that UFO bunk and Edgar Mitchell is just nuts.

Apollo 14

74 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:45:48pm

Oops. Apollo 14 not 11.

75 jorline  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:46:00pm

re: #50 Dark_Falcon

Nope, I'm on both threads. I'll be starting on the quotas May 2nd; May Saturdays are too big to take more than one off. I want to get ahead of my quotas so I can take my scheduled days off later in the month.

I wish you the best in the coming months Dark.

76 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:46:58pm

re: #62 Sharmuta

Our Founders are rolling in their graves! The very last thing they wanted was a country ruled by Scripture. Been there done that- and they heeded the lessons of such forms of government and utterly rejected them. It goes completely against the Enlightenment and everything the Founders stood for. Freedom of Conscience was paramount for them.

Looks like they keep forgetting the admonishment to "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto G-d that which is G-d's". When one wants to have a Christian Theocracy everything is acceptable that makes it happen.

77 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:47:22pm

re: #62 Sharmuta

Our Founders are rolling in their graves! The very last thing they wanted was a country ruled by Scripture. Been there done that- and they heeded the lessons of such forms of government and utterly rejected them. It goes completely against the Enlightenment and everything the Founders stood for. Freedom of Conscience was paramount for them.

and it's paramount to me too. Conservatives are supposed to stand for tradition, not for overthrowing the foundations of the Republic. Those who want the bible in science classes are against Our Founders, and against me.

78 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:48:04pm

Apollo 10 anniversary coming up.

May 18, 1969

40 years.

Take note!

79 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:49:21pm

re: #71 Gus 802

Yeah, it's him.

He was always weird and kind of off his rocker. He performed that ESP "experiment" on the moon (Apollo 11) while Alan Shepard was sleeping.

I won't even read what he has to say. I can't stand that UFO bunk and Edgar Mitchell is just nuts.

Ummmm, Alan Shepard was Commander of Apollo 14, not 11. 11 was that unknown civilian test pilot Neil Armstrong.

80 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:50:10pm

re: #79 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ummmm, Alan Shepard was Commander of Apollo 14, not 11. 11 was that unknown civilian test pilot Neil Armstrong.

I know. Had a quick case of the spastic fingers.

81 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:50:44pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

and it's paramount to me too. Conservatives are supposed to stand for tradition, not for overthrowing the foundations of the Republic. Those who want the bible in science classes are against Our Founders, and against me.

People who want to insert revisionist history into schools to promote their agenda are just as problematic as those doing this to science. I've learned a lot about science and evolution thanks to LGF, but Revolutionary history is something I've studied for decades now, as it is of particular interest to me. Anyone perpetrating this crime against our Founders is against me, you and this country.

82 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:51:56pm

re: #72 Iron Fist
Hey Bro'! "Trying to get "our" nutters only gets more nutters. We've got all of them we need." More than we need; in fact we ought to get our nutters over to the other side - I just know they'll be happier over there!

83 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:52:02pm

re: #79 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ummmm, Alan Shepard was Commander of Apollo 14, not 11. 11 was that unknown civilian test pilot Neil Armstrong.

Neil was great. Still is. X-15 pilot, Korean war vet, engineer, and then some.

84 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:52:12pm

Okay, serious moment:

Any history book should

a. pass the sniff test*

b. give sources--credible sources--findable sources
Sources are best if they are
primary
contemporaneous
accessible in the original

c. (this is my personal opinion)--avoid editorializing
If you can figure it out, so can your readers

This is just off the top of my head, and so I'm not claiming it's complete or comprehensive--just a few thoughts.

*The sniff test here is dual. One is the "fishy" test, obviously, and the other is that an engineer who designs hardware first uses the sniff test. Plug it in--does anything smell like it's burning?

85 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:52:16pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Apollo 10 anniversary coming up.

May 18, 1969

40 years.

Take note!

I think 8 was more momentous. The first ever traveling to a distant world, and with no backup in case of engine failure on the CSM. 13 at least had the lander.

86 stonemason  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:53:15pm

re: #69 realwest

" it is just cyclical history cycling." Well I wish they'd peddle faster, cause Pelosi, Reid and Obama are getting harder to take by the day!

Agreed, but it is a slow process, and when it begins to speed up, based on history, that is when we begin to worry about the more violent factions gaining ground, or, the more fanatical factions maybe, such as those that want to impose religious thought on us all?

Interesting times to say the least, not the end, not by a long shot, but surely interesting.

87 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:53:28pm

re: #72 Iron Fist

I tend to agree with you on this. Republicans have to get over their hurt feelings that the Donks get let slide on shit that would have a Republican's head. Instead of whining, start going after some heads of our own. "Cold Cash" or maybe Alcee Hastings. Call the Democrats on their nutters, their anti-Semities. Force them to live by the rules we have been.

Trying to get "our" nutters only gets more nutters. We've got all of them we need.

Hmm.

Re "social studies", when I was first introduced to the concept in third grade, I thought it was juvenile; the sort of general cultural awareness I'd read about myself in first grade.

By that point I had just found out about the Roman Empire and was keen on starting a real history class. I didn't get one of those until fifth grade and THAT was US history - interesting enough, I suppose, but too narrow.

As mentioned, I would jump for joy if a Republican governor said screw-you to the social-studies boondoggle, fired the lot and appointed a slew of experts in Roman and English history (the basis for America). But Perry isn't a serious guy; he's a dimwit demagogue and I want him out of here.

88 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:54:20pm

re: #85 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think 8 was more momentous. The first ever traveling to a distant world, and with no backup in case of engine failure on the CSM. 13 at least had the lander.

Yep. First TLI (Translunar Injection). It wasn't even the plan at first but decided to go for it at the "last minute." Took some time to perform the final calculations and program the computers.

Of course we all know what Frank Borman read during that voyage. ;)

89 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:55:02pm

re: #83 Gus 802

Neil was great. Still is. X-15 pilot, Korean war vet, engineer, and then some.

And the only one who hasn't lived off the fame of being first. The man is a total recluse, and frankly I don't blame him one bit.

90 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:56:20pm

re: #89 FurryOldGuyJeans

And the only one who hasn't lived off the fame of being first. The man is a total recluse, and frankly I don't blame him one bit.

Which is something I can relate to. Not the fame part of course. He's a real "cool hand" too.

91 victor_yugo  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:56:34pm

Social studies? More like "Socialist studies." The breeding ground of the Blame-America-First movement.

Bring back the Civics class!

92 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:56:36pm

re: #85 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think 8 was more momentous. The first ever traveling to a distant world, and with no backup in case of engine failure on the CSM. 13 at least had the lander.

And the reading of the beginning of Genesis on Christmas back to Earth was a nice touch...in a lot of ways, Apollo 8 did save 1968.

/watch the 1968 episode of From the Earth to the Moon if you haven't already...

93 Summer Seale  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:56:41pm

I really have the feeling that the GOP is going to go full force on this for a while - until they start losing elections in a big way based on it. Everything I've read from "the base" parrots the line that they think they will win with an incredibly strict religious and social conservative agenda.

I just don't think this is going to go away for quite some time.

94 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:57:36pm

re: #88 Gus 802

Yep. First TLI (Translunar Injection). It wasn't even the plan at first but decided to go for it at the "last minute." Took some time to perform the final calculations and program the computers.

Of course we all know what Frank Borman read during that voyage. ;)

The picture of earthrise over the lunar surface is just so astounding.

Now how anyone who lived during those days reject science as a Satanic plot or some other equally whacked-out mumbling I will NEVER understand.

95 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 9:58:25pm

re: #81 Sharmuta

People who want to insert revisionist history into schools to promote their agenda are just as problematic as those doing this to science. I've learned a lot about science and evolution thanks to LGF, but Revolutionary history is something I've studied for decades now, as it is of particular interest to me. Anyone perpetrating this crime against our Founders is against me, you and this country.

Agreed. Where have you seen the revisionists at work lately?

96 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:00:38pm

re: #92 talon_262

And the reading of the beginning of Genesis on Christmas back to Earth was a nice touch...in a lot of ways, Apollo 8 did save 1968.

/watch the 1968 episode of From the Earth to the Moon if you haven't already...

Just don't get the Signature Edition DVDs, they totally butchered it by chopping off a lot trying to make it fit "normally" on 16x9 TVs. BLECH!

97 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:01:12pm

re: #94 FurryOldGuyJeans

The picture of earthrise over the lunar surface is just so astounding.

It must have been astounding... because the earth never shifts in the moon's sky. It just spins.

(There is no such thing as "earthrise")

98 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:02:14pm

re: #94 FurryOldGuyJeans

The picture of earthrise over the lunar surface is just so astounding.

Now how anyone who lived during those days reject science as a Satanic plot or some other equally whacked-out mumbling I will NEVER understand.

Yes, first earth rise viewed by man. We caught a glimpse of our blue planet from afar. I said Frank Borman read but I forgot they took turns. I think Frank Borman was the one that suggested it which was to read Genesis. I'm not a believer but I still find it very touching.

99 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:02:28pm

re: #97 Zimriel

It must have been astounding... because the earth never shifts in the moon's sky. It just spins.

(There is no such thing as "earthrise")

The "earthrise" was caused by the movement of Apollo 8 in orbit.

/ geez, picky, picky, picky! ;)

100 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:02:45pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Where have you seen the revisionists at work lately?

I've seen them on LGF, for one. One tried to push off the Washington Prayer Book- which is a complete forgery. Another tried to pass along a quote from Madison about the Ten Commandments- another forgery. Then there's this guy with the TX BoE, and Bill Buckingham from Dover. There is a stunning amount of people who buy into this "Christian nation" meme, and a lot of them are the same folks pushing ID.

101 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:02:45pm

re: #96 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just don't get the Signature Edition DVDs, they totally butchered it by chopping off a lot trying to make it fit "normally" on 16x9 TVs. BLECH!

Have had the Signature Edition for a couple of years now...even with the botched WS matte, it's still damn good and worth the 50 bucks I paid at BB.

102 victor_yugo  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:02:46pm

re: #62 Sharmuta

Freedom of Conscience was paramount for them.

Look at the freedoms protected by the First Amendment, in A-B-C-D order:

religion: conscience

speech/press: verbalizing the conscience

assembly: gathering those in agreement

petition: pressuring the government to abide by citizens' consciences

103 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:04:09pm

re: #101 talon_262

Have had the Signature Edition for a couple of years now...even with the botched WS matte, it's still damn good and worth the 50 bucks I paid at BB.

I have the original 4 disc edition, and seen the SigEd. You couldn't pay me enough money to even remotely consider getting the latter version.

104 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:04:19pm

re: #102 victor_yugo

There's a reason it's the FIRST amendment......

[Closely followed by the second, which gives us the ability to protect the First.]

105 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:06:21pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

There's a reason it's the FIRST amendment......

[Closely followed by the second, which gives us the ability to protect the First.]

As flawed a bunch of human beings the Founding Fathers were, they truly crafted one of the most amazing documents ever precisely because they knew how flawed we all are.

106 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:06:57pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

I thought the first was protected by a well-regulated militia.

/

107 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:07:03pm

re: #97 Zimriel

It must have been astounding... because the earth never shifts in the moon's sky. It just spins.

(There is no such thing as "earthrise")

Better tell that to NASA:

The earthrise that could be witnessed from the surface of the Moon is quite unlike sunrises on Earth. Because the Moon is tidally locked with the Earth, one side of the Moon always faces toward Earth. Interpretation of this fact would lead one to believe that the Earth's position is fixed on the lunar sky and no earthrises can occur. However, the Moon librates slightly, which causes the Earth to draw a Lissajous figure on the sky. This figure fits inside a rectangle 15°48' wide and 13°20' high (in angular dimensions), while the angular diameter of the Earth as seen from Moon is only about 2°. This means that earthrises are visible near the edge of the Earth-observable surface of the Moon (about 20 % of the surface). Since a full libration cycle takes about 27 days, earthrises are very slow, and it takes about 48 hours for Earth to clear its diameter.[11] During the course of the month-long lunar orbit, an observer would additionally witness a succession of "Earth phases", much like the lunar phases seen from Earth. That is what accounts for the half-illuminated globe seen in the photograph.

108 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:07:43pm

re: #100 Sharmuta

I've seen them on LGF, for one. One tried to push off the Washington Prayer Book- which is a complete forgery. Another tried to pass along a quote from Madison about the Ten Commandments- another forgery. Then there's this guy with the TX BoE, and Bill Buckingham from Dover. There is a stunning amount of people who buy into this "Christian nation" meme, and a lot of them are the same folks pushing ID.

Agreed again. I see America as a Christian nation, but only in the sense that her people are Christian and that informs morals and culture. The government is not to be part of nor favor any religion. The Founders were very clear on that.

109 victor_yugo  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:08:25pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

re: #105 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oyez, oyez.

110 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:08:45pm

re: #107 gmsc

The earthrise I was referring to, the pictures from Apollo 8, was a phenomenon of the movement of the spacecraft in orbit around the moon. ;)

/ can't we all just get along?

111 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:09:14pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

There's a reason it's the FIRST amendment......

[Closely followed by the second, which gives us the ability to protect the First.]

Minor quibble. It wasn't the first article in the Bill of Rights. It's actually the third. The first amendment has never been ratified, and the second wasn't ratified until 1992.

112 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:09:28pm

re: #87 Zimriel Hi there Zimriel! "Social Studies" as a school topic has changed dramatically over the years. When I went to grade school (you know, the old three mile walk, through the rain and snow, uphill both ways) social studies was basically teaching about our form of governments - Federal (and in my case, NY). American History was a course all by itself and then we had "World History". There wasn't a helluva lot of attention to the correlations between and among the three.
Flash forward oh, about 30 some odd years later (and now it was taxi's for 10 blocks, in rain, snow and still for some bizarre reason, uphill both ways) and I'm teaching GRADUATE STUDENTS about Real Estate law, but most of us on the law faculty figured we should give our students a quick test to see what they knew about law generally before going into the specific area of real estate law. The results were, to my thinking - and that of the Dean - appalling. Less than 10% of GRAD STUDENTS knew how laws were made or came about and the only thing they knew about courts was that the US Supreme Court was the "law of the land" as to cases not overturned by constitutional amendment or later Supreme Court cases.
So I was volunteered by the Dean to create a curriculum, syllabus and reference materials to teach all of our incoming Grad Students about - ta da - what they shoulda learned in social studies - how governments in the United States work and how laws come into being.
Ignorance of US history, English history and the at least significant "world history" AND how they were frequently intertwined at the COLLEGE LEVEL is absolutely astounding!

113 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:10:22pm

re: #110 FurryOldGuyJeans

The earthrise I was referring to, the pictures from Apollo 8, was a phenomenon of the movement of the spacecraft in orbit around the moon. ;)

/ can't we all just get along?

I know - but they also happen if your vantage point is on the moon, as well. They're slow, but they do happen.

I never said yours was wrong in any way.

114 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:10:38pm

re: #103 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have the original 4 disc edition, and seen the SigEd. You couldn't pay me enough money to even remotely consider getting the latter version.

Botched WS matte on the Signature Edition or not, FTETTM is still one of the best miniseries ever made, IMHO. What they did back then almost seems impossible to do today...I know NASA's trying to get men back to the Moon and eventually to Mars, but given today's America, I don't think we, as a nation, have the guts and gumption we did during Mercury/Gemini/Apollo.

We have to find a way to get it back...

115 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:11:09pm
116 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:11:24pm

re: #105 FurryOldGuyJeans

As flawed a bunch of human beings the Founding Fathers were, they truly crafted one of the most amazing documents ever precisely because they knew how flawed we all are.

Exactly! They understood man was flawed, and would remain so, and that the best method to protect against the passions of men was to restrain the power allowed them, which is why our Constitution has checks and balances on the government, and the power allowed the government restrains the power left to the people. We have our rights, but within the constraints of the law. The Constitution is about as good as it's going to get- since man is flawed, we cannot have a perfect form of government, but this is about as close as anything we'll ever see to "perfect" governance.

117 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:12:22pm

re: #111 Liberal Classic

Minor quibble. It wasn't the first article in the Bill of Rights. It's actually the third. The first amendment has never been ratified, and the second wasn't ratified until 1992.

Oh, bullshit!

118 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:12:24pm

re: #112 realwest

They hadn't seen Schoolhouse Rock?

I still have to sing the preamble.

119 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:12:32pm

re: #111 Liberal Classic

The first amendment has never been ratified


uh what?

120 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:12:58pm

re: #88 Gus 802

Yep. First TLI (Translunar Injection). It wasn't even the plan at first but decided to go for it at the "last minute." Took some time to perform the final calculations and program the computers.

Of course we all know what Frank Borman read during that voyage. ;)

The Apollo 8 mission had been planned to go to the Moon before launch, but it was a change of plans as of a few months earlier.

121 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:13:07pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. Where have you seen the revisionists at work lately?

Uh, well one place is The History Channel. And, apparently as I said in my 112 in college history courses!

122 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:14:14pm

No joke.

The second article in the bill of rights became the 27th amendment in 1992. The first article had to do with the enumeration of representatives. It was never ratified.

123 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:14:52pm

re: #111 Liberal Classic

Minor quibble. It wasn't the first article in the Bill of Rights. It's actually the third. The first amendment has never been ratified, and the second wasn't ratified until 1992.

You must be a lawyer to bring up such a weirdo half-assed crap theory like that. ;)

124 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:15:01pm

re: #93 Summer

I just don't think this is going to go away for quite some time.

I imagine them to be like the suicide squads in "Life of Brian", at this point... What a bunch of psychotic, paranoid lemmings. "We're going to kill ourselves, you'll be sorry!" Um, go ahead... Good riddance to crazy garbage.

I think the turning point for me was the undignified hollering at McPain's concession speech on election night. Things haven't gotten any better.

125 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:15:04pm

re: #114 talon_262

Botched WS matte on the Signature Edition or not, FTETTM is still one of the best miniseries ever made, IMHO. What they did back then almost seems impossible to do today...I know NASA's trying to get men back to the Moon and eventually to Mars, but given today's America, I don't think we, as a nation, have the guts and gumption we did during Mercury/Gemini/Apollo.

We have to find a way to get it back...

I miss those days. The "can do" attitude. "Kick the tires and light the fire!" 9 years before we get to the moon? 20 for Mars. At that rate we'll still be within the solar system within the next 100 years and at a very laborious rate.

126 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:15:21pm

re: #118 EmmmieG

They hadn't seen Schoolhouse Rock?

I still have to sing the preamble.

Here's an instant and complete refresher course for them!

Oh, and specifically for EmmmieG:

127 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:15:41pm

re: #121 realwest

Uh, well one place is The History Channel. And, apparently as I said in my 112 in college history courses!

I haven't had much time to watch the history channel lately? What sort of revisionism is going on there?

128 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:15:50pm

re: #111 Liberal Classic

Minor quibble. It wasn't the first article in the Bill of Rights. It's actually the third. The first amendment has never been ratified, and the second wasn't ratified until 1992.

The First Amendment was ratified by the States in 1791.

Where did you get that misinformation?

129 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:16:12pm

2020 for Mars. OK. Not 20 years. I doubt they'll meet that schedule.

130 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:16:15pm

re: #120 Kosh's Shadow

The Apollo 8 mission had been planned to go to the Moon before launch, but it was a change of plans as of a few months earlier.

Wasn't it just a rearrangement of the schedule because the first LEM wasn't yet ready from the manufacturer in time for its planned launch?

131 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:16:17pm

re: #32 Emerald

Guess it's too easy to just pull your kids out of public schools and keep them ignorant at home.

You may be surprised to learn "studies show a 20-30 percentile point gap between public school students and home-schooled students . . . in favor of the home-schooled."

132 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:17:00pm

re: #108 Dark_Falcon AND while some of the Founding Fathers were Christian, most were Deists.

133 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:17:07pm

re: #122 Liberal Classic

So, we are counting unratified amendments now?
When is an amendment not an amendment?

134 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:17:11pm

re: #107 gmsc

earthrises, if you're on the Moon really close to the night/day line

Okay, there is such a thing as Earthrise/set on the Moon. If you look for it and you're there at precisely the right time of the month.

That's not how I think of sunrise/set; it's more like how I think of eclipses, but you're very technically and nitpickily right.

135 TedStriker  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:17:28pm

re: #130 FurryOldGuyJeans

Wasn't it just a rearrangement of the schedule because the first LEM wasn't yet ready from the manufacturer in time for its planned launch?

That would be correct...Grumman didn't have the LEM intended for 8 ready.

136 Sharmuta  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:17:47pm

re: #128 Charles

The First Amendment was ratified by the States in 1791.

Where did you get that misinformation?

Because the original first batch of amendments contained two additional proposals, but without clarifying what is meant, it reeks of revisionism.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

137 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:18:29pm

re: #126 gmsc

I actually own a Betsy Ross flag, which I fly from our front porch from time to time, just because I'm a geek like that.

138 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:19:02pm

re: #123 FurryOldGuyJeans

You must be a lawyer to bring up such a weirdo half-assed crap theory like that. ;)

Actually, I learned about this in a creation/evolution debate. One of the creationists mentioned as an aside that religion was so important to the founders fathers, that it was put first in importance in the very first amendment. A fellow on the evo side called this argument specious, countering that the first amendment was actually only the third article in the original bill of rights.

139 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:19:14pm

re: #122 Liberal Classic

No joke.

The second article in the bill of rights became the 27th amendment in 1992. The first article had to do with the enumeration of representatives. It was never ratified.

So it NEVER was the 1st, ever. It takes a ratification to become an amendment, and no matter WHEN it was proposed the only consideration is when it was ratified.

Man, you sure shovel a lot of bullshit.

140 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:19:17pm

re: #128 Charles

The First Amendment was ratified by the States in 1791.

Where did you get that misinformation?

It's the First Amendment; but it's the third article in the original twelve-article Bill. The second article maps to our 27th and the first article died a quiet death.

...didn't all Americans know that...?

141 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:20:46pm
Rev. Peter Marshall of Peter Marshall Ministries in Massachusetts, who suggests that California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina were divine punishments for tolerance of homosexuality.

Well that explains it - my teenage sons are typical homophobes (as if homosexuality spreads like the flu). So that must be why my neighbors' houses burned to the ground and mine didn't.

142 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:21:28pm

re: #128 Charles

The First Amendment was ratified by the States in 1791.

Where did you get that misinformation?

This is just trivia, but the first amendment to the constitution was the third article in the bill of rights. The second article in the bill of rights wasn't ratified until 1997, becoming the 27th amendment to the constitution.

[Link: www.constitution.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

143 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:21:35pm

I see. So we're splitting hairs over the original articles? Sheesh.

144 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:22:11pm

I think liberal classic doesn't understand the difference between an article and a an amendment

145 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:22:34pm

re: #111 Liberal Classic
WHAT?! The first was really the third and the second wasn't ratified until 1992?
Sigh. The Bill of Rights refers to, collectively, the first ten Amendments to the constitution all of which were adopted long before 1800.
But out of idle curiousity, where did you get your information? Link?

146 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:22:35pm

re: #138 Liberal Classic

Actually, I learned about this in a creation/evolution debate. One of the creationists mentioned as an aside that religion was so important to the founders fathers, that it was put first in importance in the very first amendment. A fellow on the evo side called this argument specious, countering that the first amendment was actually only the third article in the original bill of rights.

No wonder you are trying to shovel the shit. Unratified amendments have NO bearing on the Constitution, period, no matter when they were proposed.

You go down this crap path of trying to reconfigure the Constitution you might as well just let the SCOTUS consider international law as the supreme law of the US. Or the Bible.

147 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:22:42pm

re: #142 Liberal Classic


Typo: that should have read 1992.

148 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:23:02pm

re: #141 karmic_inquisitor

That's wierd....iirc, most officials in Massachusetts would insist wildfires and hurricanes are divine punishment for voting Republican or driving an SUV.

149 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:23:22pm

re: #138 Liberal Classic

Actually, you're both a little off. There were more than a dozen proposed immediate amendments to the Constitution. But what matters is this; we got ten when all is said and done--and the the First is still first. Anything else is like arguing over the validity of the Apocrypha.

BTW--Thanks again for the updings on my #158 on a previous thread.

BBL

150 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:23:22pm

re: #122 Liberal Classic

No joke.

The second article in the bill of rights became the 27th amendment in 1992. The first article had to do with the enumeration of representatives. It was never ratified.

The bill of rights don't have "articles".

The articles are of the constitution itself.

The bill of rights are the first ten amendments.

And they are numbered in the order of ratification. So if the second had not been ratified until 1992, then we still have a slavery problem.

151 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:24:32pm

Man, you guys are a tough crowd. I'm not trying to shovel anything. It's just a fun bit of trivia.

152 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:24:32pm

re: #137 EmmmieG

I actually own a Betsy Ross flag, which I fly from our front porch from time to time, just because I'm a geek like that.

If I owned an original Betsy Ross flag, I don't know if I'd want to fly within reach of anyone. I'm glad to hear that you do,however!

Going back to the previous subject, I won't say social studies are bad these days, but you wouldn't believe how easy it is to get students at an all-girl's school to sign a petition to end women's suffrage:

153 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:24:33pm

Here is another article by Rob Boston about David Barton.

Sects, Lies and Videotape
David Barton's Distorted History

It mentions all of the guy's tapes, books, and such, and it shoots holes in a bunch of the assertions, showing the many factual errors and strange distortions. It also includes this:


Perhaps most alarming, Barton also has had a relationship with the racist and anti-Semitic fringes of the far right. According to Skipp Porteous of the Massachusetts-based Institute for First Amendment Studies, Barton was listed in promotional literature as a "new and special speaker" at a 1991 summer retreat in Colorado sponsored by Scriptures for America, a far-right ministry headed by Pastor Pete Peters. Peters' organization, which is virulently anti-Semitic and racist, spreads hysteria about Jews and homosexuals and has been linked to neo-Nazi groups. (The organization distributes a booklet called Death Penalty For Homosexuals.)

Peters' church is part of the racist "Christian Identity" movement. and three members of The Order, a violent neo-Nazi organization, formerly attended Peters' small congregation in LaPorte, Cole. After members of The Order murdered Denver radio talk show host Alan Berg in the mid 1980s, critics of Peters' ministry in Colorado charged that his hate-filled sermons had spurred the assassination.

154 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:24:44pm

re: #143 Charles

I see. So we're splitting hairs over the original articles? Sheesh.

And doing so to justify using religion as the basis for the Republic. Triple Sheesh.

155 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:25:18pm

re: #151 Liberal Classic

Man, you guys are a tough crowd. I'm not trying to shovel anything. It's just a fun bit of trivia.

It is BULLSHIT and a flat out lie.

156 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:25:34pm

re: #143 Charles

I see. So we're splitting hairs over the original articles? Sheesh.

We're splitting hairs because Sharmuta was using it as a propaganda club to prove that the First Amendment, as first in pole position, gives it pride of place in our Bill of Rights. This stuff matters, Charles. (And Sharmuta.)

The First Amendment's position is in actuality a historical accident.

I'd say the Constitution itself - particularly its comments on how there should be no religious tests of office - had somewhat made the First Amendment redundant anyway.

157 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:25:56pm

re: #150 karmic_inquisitor

The bill of rights don't have "articles".

The articles are of the constitution itself.

The bill of rights are the first ten amendments.

And they are numbered in the order of ratification. So if the second had not been ratified until 1992, then we still have a slavery problem.

Yes, the amendments are numbered sequentially. The second article in the bill of rights took over 200 years before it was finally ratified. It had to do with congressional pay raises. That's why it's the 27th amendment.

158 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:26:09pm

re: #152 gmsc

If it were original, it would be in a museum. I'll never be wealthy enough to own anything that would go in a museum.

I meant the thirteen stars in a circle flag, which you can still purchase.

159 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:26:50pm

re: #155 FurryOldGuyJeans

It is BULLSHIT and a flat out lie.

It is neither bullshit, nor a flat out lie.

160 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:26:56pm

re: #154 FurryOldGuyJeans

And doing so to justify using religion as the basis for the Republic. Triple Sheesh.

In order to understand the First Amendment, one needs to understand the impact of the Reformation on England and British history through the 17th century.

161 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:27:19pm

re: #141 karmic_inquisitor

Well that explains it - my teenage sons are typical homophobes (as if homosexuality spreads like the flu). So that must be why my neighbors' houses burned to the ground and mine didn't.

Odd. Massachusetts is very tolerant of gays. Even Mitt Romney was so during his governorship. Then again we're not talking logic when some loud mouthed pastor speaks.

162 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:27:40pm

re: #140 Zimriel

It's the First Amendment; but it's the third article in the original twelve-article Bill. The second article maps to our 27th and the first article died a quiet death.

...didn't all Americans know that...?

Why should Americans learn about our history? That would only lead to people questioning our betters who keep telling the rest of us how evil the US has always been.

163 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:29:14pm

re: #162 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why should Americans learn about our history? That would only lead to people questioning our betters who keep telling the rest of us how evil the US has always been.

"I regret that I have but one upding to give to that post."
-Patrick "Lizard" Henry

164 solomonpanting  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:29:32pm
California wildfires and Hurricane Katrina were divine punishments for tolerance of homosexuality the Rev. Peter Marshall of Peter Marshall Ministries in Massachusetts.
165 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:29:34pm

re: #157 Liberal Classic

Yes, the amendments are numbered sequentially. The second article in the bill of rights took over 200 years before it was finally ratified. It had to do with congressional pay raises. That's why it's the 27th amendment.

Fair enough. Sorry about you getting roughed up. With all the revisionists around these days, sometimes I get a little trigger-happy.

166 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:30:01pm

re: #160 calcajun

In order to understand the First Amendment, one needs to understand the impact of the Reformation on England and British history through the 17th century.

It also helps to understand the impact of Freemasonry on political thinking in the early and mid 18th century.

167 avanti  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:30:14pm

Here's a great read about revising history in the case of George Washington's religious beliefs.

Washington.

168 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:30:24pm

re: #153 Catttt

I actually heard about the assassination of Alan Berg waaaaay back in the day from one of those 'From the case files of the FBI' shows. They mentioned that he enjoyed putting anti-Semite callers on the air so he could belittle them for his audience.

Wonder if there's any audio archives of his show online somewhere- I'd like to hear that.

169 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:31:15pm

re: #111 Liberal Classic

Minor quibble. It wasn't the first article in the Bill of Rights. It's actually the third. The first amendment has never been ratified, and the second wasn't ratified until 1992.

You are confusing proposed amendments, called articles, with ratified amendments, called - wait for it - amendments.

In 1789, twelve proposed articles of amendment were submitted to the States. Of these, Articles III through XII were ratified and became the first ten amendments to the Constitution, popularly known as the Bill of Rights. In 1992, proposed Article II was ratified and became the 27th amendment to the Constitution.

Source: [Link: www.house.gov...]

170 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:31:54pm
171 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:32:55pm

re: #127 Dark_Falcon
Oh Lord Dark_Falcon - I used to love the History Channel - hell even the idea of a history channel brought a smile to my face!
But over the years it's revised a hell of a lot of history which I specialized in and did extenstive research and writing (some for publication in "scholarly journals") about Colonial American History, American Revolutionary History and in the history of the American West. I just gave up on it and it's rare that I watch anythng on it these days. Hell, Ken Burns SUPERB documentary on the Civil War should have been shown on the History Channel (ok, after PBS) and instead we get Gettysburg (the Movie) and stuff like that (and the movie of Gettysburg was modestly close to being accurate). And I'm not talking "revision" as in honest and reputable hisorians can disagree, I mean CRAP. Their history of "Freemasonry" was so flawed I switched the channel to HGTV!

172 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:33:17pm

re: #168 Fenway_Nation

I actually heard about the assassination of Alan Berg waaaaay back in the day from one of those 'From the case files of the FBI' shows. They mentioned that he enjoyed putting anti-Semite callers on the air so he could belittle them for his audience.

Wonder if there's any audio archives of his show online somewhere- I'd like to hear that.

I'm from Colorado and remember being shocked at the time. It wasn't that long ago, but I think it was a more innocent time, because I couldn't imagine then who would want to murder him.

173 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:33:26pm

re: #165 Dark_Falcon

Fair enough. Sorry about you getting roughed up. With all the revisionists around these days, sometimes I get a little trigger-happy.

Hey, no problem. I think it's a fun bit of trivia. Especially when someone uses the "first amendment is the most important amdendment" kind of reasoning. I feel a little bit like Rodney Dangerfield. :)

174 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:33:36pm

re: #158 EmmmieG

If it were original, it would be in a museum. I'll never be wealthy enough to own anything that would go in a museum.

I meant the thirteen stars in a circle flag, which you can still purchase.

Ah - thanks for the clarification.

I still remember learning the 13 colonies and the order they were admitted as states. I knew the east coast of the US geographically, and understood why Florida wasn't included, but I remember being confused as to why Vermont wasn't on the list.

My teacher replied, "Back in the days of the colonies, Vermont was known as 'upstate New York'."

175 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:34:58pm

re: #171 realwest

Oh Lord Dark_Falcon - I used to love the History Channel - hell even the idea of a history channel brought a smile to my face!
But over the years it's revised a hell of a lot of history which I specialized in and did extenstive research and writing (some for publication in "scholarly journals") about Colonial American History, American Revolutionary History and in the history of the American West. I just gave up on it and it's rare that I watch anythng on it these days. Hell, Ken Burns SUPERB documentary on the Civil War should have been shown on the History Channel (ok, after PBS) and instead we get Gettysburg (the Movie) and stuff like that (and the movie of Gettysburg was modestly close to being accurate). And I'm not talking "revision" as in honest and reputable hisorians can disagree, I mean CRAP. Their history of "Freemasonry" was so flawed I switched the channel to HGTV!

Bummer. I had my two oldest watch Ken Burns already.

We're such hobby historians around here that I actually watched a documentary on Roman arms with my husband. With a pitocin drip in my arm. I think the nurse thought we were nuts, but nothing was happening yet, and I was bored.

Anyway, 10:30 and I'm trying to get over a cold. Good night.

176 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:35:22pm

re: #170 Iron Fist

The agreement on the Bill of Rights was one of the compromises that were made to even get the Constitution. They were lined up to fire rapidly (as rapid as such things could be done, then) once the Constitution was in place. They were very distrustful of centeral governments. Especially central governments with large standing armies with which to enforce State diktat. Madison talks about it in Federalist 46 (43? one of the two) at length. He details the need for securing the rioght to keep and bare arms as a critical buffer to guard against a central government ran off the rails.

I kinda wish we could take a few steps back and start having the states be leery of the Federal Government again. We now have a government that steals our lunch money and threatens to let us starve by refusing to return any of the money they had previously robbed from us. And in typical fashion the states cower like battered spouses in an abusive relationship.

177 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:36:13pm

re: #172 Catttt

I'm from Colorado and remember being shocked at the time. It wasn't that long ago, but I think it was a more innocent time, because I couldn't imagine then who would want to murder him.

I've seen the condo. Also saw the bullet holes on the garage door. I even met someone that worked with the killers. Happened in 1984 so I wasn't around. Killers were KKK and neo-Nazi types.

178 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:36:13pm

re: #137 EmmmieG I really LIKE Geeks like that!

179 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:36:37pm

re: #174 gmsc

Ah - thanks for the clarification.

I still remember learning the 13 colonies and the order they were admitted as states. I knew the east coast of the US geographically, and understood why Florida wasn't included, but I remember being confused as to why Vermont wasn't on the list.

My teacher replied, "Back in the days of the colonies, Vermont was known as 'upstate New York'."

My mom could name all the state capitals, and it didn't take much to set her off. She also could recite all the books of the Bible, in order, not to mention the Greek alphabet.

Yet - she would get annoyed at my daddy and me when we would get started reciting The Raven, which we both knew by heart. Funny how those things you memorize as a youngster stick with you.

180 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:36:45pm

re: #156 Zimriel

We're splitting hairs because Sharmuta was using it as a propaganda club to prove that the First Amendment, as first in pole position, gives it pride of place in our Bill of Rights. This stuff matters, Charles. (And Sharmuta.)

The First Amendment's position is in actuality a historical accident.

I'd say the Constitution itself - particularly its comments on how there should be no religious tests of office - had somewhat made the First Amendment redundant anyway.

Thanks for the backup.

181 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:37:36pm

re: #177 Gus 802

I've seen the condo. Also saw the bullet holes on the garage door. I even met someone that worked with the killers. Happened in 1984 so I wasn't around. Killers were KKK and neo-Nazi types.

Hmmmmm, 1984.....

I was in the Navy! I was never anywhere near that garage! ;)

///////////////////////////////////

182 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:37:47pm

re: #177 Gus 802

I've seen the condo. Also saw the bullet holes on the garage door. I even met someone that worked with the killers. Happened in 1984 so I wasn't around. Killers were KKK and neo-Nazi types.

Yeah. I remember the details of the murder. It really shocked me, for it to stick in my head. The thing is, though, I never knew until now the root cause of the murder.

183 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:38:13pm

re: #174 gmsc

Ah - thanks for the clarification.

I still remember learning the 13 colonies and the order they were admitted as states. I knew the east coast of the US geographically, and understood why Florida wasn't included, but I remember being confused as to why Vermont wasn't on the list.

My teacher replied, "Back in the days of the colonies, Vermont was known as 'upstate New York'."

One last note, and then I am gone. I actually wrote a paper once on the similarities between Ethan Allen and Sam Houston. Fun paper to write--Ethan Allen was quite an individual.

184 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:39:16pm

re: #183 EmmmieG

One last note, and then I am gone. I actually wrote a paper once on the similarities between Ethan Allen and Sam Houston. Fun paper to write--Ethan Allen was quite an individual.

I'll have to look that up (not your paper, but the general topic) – it does sound like an interesting topic.

G'Nite, EmmmieG!

185 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:39:24pm

re: #182 Catttt

Yeah. I remember the details of the murder. It really shocked me, for it to stick in my head. The thing is, though, I never knew until now the root cause of the murder.

Good news. One of the killers is dead:

David Lane (white nationalist)
Born November 2, 1938
Woden, Iowa, USA
Died May 28, 2007 (aged 68)

186 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:40:34pm

So, FurryOldGuyJeans, may I get downgraded from lying bullshitter to giver of mild indigestion? I won't hold it against ya.

187 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:40:37pm

re: #182 Catttt

Yeah. I remember the details of the murder. It really shocked me, for it to stick in my head. The thing is, though, I never knew until now the root cause of the murder.

The root cause of course was because Berg was a) Jewish and b) a liberal talk show host.

188 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:41:22pm

I couldn't go to sleep so I thought I'd relax here for a few minutes. Relax? It'd be easier to relax by fiirng my gun into the night or banging some pots and pans upside my head.

189 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:41:40pm

re: #185 Gus 802

Whoa, that link was a dip in to the old sewey hole...

190 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:41:55pm

re: #181 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hmmmmm, 1984.....

I was in the Navy! I was never anywhere near that garage! ;)

///////////////////////////////////

I was 23 living in Joisy.

191 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:42:39pm

BTW - anyone notice how Obama has set up the expectations on the Chrysler bankruptcy?

"Quick and surgical" can really only happen if you have worked out a deal with your creditors before walking in to file for protection.

But that "deal" didn't happen, which is why they filed.

So there are 2 possibilities I see - 1) Obama is ignorant of the BK process, as are all of his aids and supporters and the UAW itself, or 2) this is a set up for gaming/creating a political backlash when the BK takes longer than the "30-60" days that Obama stated.

I take 2.

He already has singled out "those" who did not "cooperate" for criticism today.

"Those" would be the senior debt holders (eg the first in line to get paid in bankruptcy) who were not willing to give away their property to the UAW. So now Obama will try to get a bankruptcy court to do it. If these bond holders actually ask for the due process that they are entitled to under the constitution and actually ask the judge to give them their fair share under the law, Obama will demonize them as being "selfish" and not "cooperative" and standing in the way of protecting jobs.

So Obama will end up "shredding the Constitution" and "trampling on liberties" when viewed from the perspective of a property owner (Bush did it to suspected terrorists - now we know that property owners pose a greater threat)

I have to hand it to him and Axelrod - they game these things out and exploit them to maximum political advantage. This is how America will get a brand new economy imported from France.

192 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:42:51pm

re: #189 rawmuse

Whoa, that link was a dip in to the old sewey hole...

Wasn't it? God I hate those creeps.

193 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:43:28pm

re: #175 EmmmieG
"Bummer. I had my two oldest watch Ken Burns already."
Why a bummer - I thought that was one of if not the most historically accurate and engrossing documentaries I've ever seen!

194 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:44:19pm

Hi there, lizards, just reading quickly through some of the earlier threads from today. I know it's not a full moon here on earth but it must be a full moon somewhere. ;-)

195 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:44:42pm

re: #190 Gus 802

I was 23 living in Joisy.

I was *mumblety* and traveling between 3 different duty stations during the year.

196 capitalist piglet  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:44:53pm

re: #188 MandyManners

I couldn't go to sleep so I thought I'd relax here for a few minutes. Relax? It'd be easier to relax by fiirng my gun into the night or banging some pots and pans upside my head.

Maybe you'll like this.

There is an Obama thumb drive on the market, loaded with his speeches. (I am not kidding.)

Check out the six reviews.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

197 Zimriel  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:45:02pm

re: #180 Liberal Classic

Thanks for the backup.

No problem. You were right after all. If you should come up with something dumb then I'll jump on you with the rest :^)

/gets gang-banged too when he screws up

198 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:45:57pm

re: #179 Catttt

My mom could name all the state capitals, and it didn't take much to set her off. She also could recite all the books of the Bible, in order, not to mention the Greek alphabet.

I always like to ask people (especially if they're from somewhere around Kentucky) the correct pronunciation of the capital of Kentucky. I ask them if it's:

1) Lewis-ville
2) Lewey-ville
3) Lew-vull

Everyone takes their guesses, and they all slap their forehead when I tell them the correct pronunciation of Kentucky's capital is "Frankfort".

Yet - she would get annoyed at my daddy and me when we would get started reciting The Raven, which we both knew by heart. Funny how those things you memorize as a youngster stick with you.

I love memorizing poetry! I've got most of these memorized (no, not the Raven yet), and I'm current working on memorizing The Walrus and The Carpenter (the video below does skip a stanza, but it's still good):

199 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:46:32pm
200 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:46:32pm

re: #182 Catttt

I did....of course- like I said earlier- I first heard about it on one of those 'From the files of the FBI' TV shows.

There is some good news regarding his killer, tho'.

201 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:47:32pm

re: #195 FurryOldGuyJeans

I was *mumblety* and traveling between 3 different duty stations during the year.

Yeah, I was just starting to snap out of things and started working -- took me long enough.

202 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:48:01pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

Nobody made you come here.

203 pat  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:48:13pm

re: #188 MandyManners

lol, and I hope you have at least one Marlborough light with you.

204 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:48:56pm

re: #196 capitalist piglet

Maybe you'll like this.

There is an Obama thumb drive on the market, loaded with his speeches. (I am not kidding.)

Check out the six reviews.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Do you have some sick desire to see me get no sleep tonight?!

I'm attending chapel at The Kid's school in the morning and I must get some quality sleep. It's one thing to throw on a pair of shorts and some flip-flops to drop him off but, I gotta' put on real clothes and make-up in the morning. So, I'm toddling off to bed again.

205 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:49:08pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen
Respectfully, y'all ought to "tune in" much more often.

206 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:49:40pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Yeah, I was just starting to snap out of things and started working -- took me long enough.

Work either sobers you up or just makes you want to drink more. ;)

207 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:49:59pm

re: #204 MandyManners

'Nite {Mandy}, get some rest.

208 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:50:01pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

Drink up, Shriners!

209 realwest  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:50:30pm

Well it's been grand as usual you all but I gotta get some sleep. I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good Nigh, All.

210 calcajun  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:50:34pm

re: #204 MandyManners

Bon soir, ma'am.

211 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:50:36pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

You just have a nose for these threads. ;)

212 capitalist piglet  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:50:39pm

re: #204 MandyManners

Do you have some sick desire to see me get no sleep tonight?!

I'm attending chapel at The Kid's school in the morning and I must get some quality sleep. It's one thing to throw on a pair of shorts and some flip-flops to drop him off but, I gotta' put on real clothes and make-up in the morning. So, I'm toddling off to bed again.

To answer your question, no. : ) (I thought you might enjoy a little laugh is all.)

Sleep well, Ms. Manners!

213 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:50:44pm

re: #191 karmic_inquisitor

When can I get one of those new Chryslers with the Obama hood ornament?

214 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:50:50pm

re: #197 Zimriel

No problem. You were right after all. If you should come up with something dumb then I'll jump on you with the rest :^)

/gets gang-banged too when he screws up

Fair deal. I think I did transpose article and amendment in one of those posts up thread. I'm sure that added to the general confusion. All the same, it would be nice to get a 'sorry mate' from those people who said I was full of it.

215 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:51:19pm

re: #209 realwest


Bye realwest!

216 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:51:36pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

When are you gonna' piss on Charles' sofa?

217 gmsc  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:51:55pm

re: #209 realwest

Well it's been grand as usual you all but I gotta get some sleep. I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good Nigh, All.

Sleep well, RW!

218 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:52:15pm

re: #206 FurryOldGuyJeans

Work either sobers you up or just makes you want to drink more. ;)

Yeah. I was rather sober then. Still am for the most part.

But I did have coffee for breakfast. It's like an Italian Roast. //

219 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:52:55pm

re: #209 realwest

Sweet dreams.

220 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:53:34pm

re: #191 karmic_inquisitor

And thos edebt holders should come out swinging as should the GOP. Obama should be publicly reminded about The Rule Of Law and how important that is for job creation. Take his rhetoric and ram it down his throat. Just because he makes a charge doesn't mean we have to let it stick. Dark_Falcon's anti-Alinsky Rule #1: Ruthless Aggression. Counter leftist attacks swiftly and without respect. Don't talk about how you think they are good but misguided. Say that they are harming the country willfully and say how they are doing it.

221 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:53:47pm

Lessons from Old Rome : Quotes that are still valid.

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges

Translation: "The greater the degeneration of the republic, the more of its laws"

Those Romans sure knew what they were on about. Heck .. anyone who goes out and invents pizza AND pasta is ok by me too.

222 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:54:12pm

re: #218 Gus 802

Yeah. I was rather sober then. Still am for the most part.

But I did have coffee for breakfast. It's like an Italian Roast. //

Oh, coffee! My resurrection potion, that which brings me back from the dead each morning. If I haven't had at least a gallon before the sun reaches its zenith I'm doomed to a day of mediocrity.

223 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:54:26pm

re: #216 MandyManners

When are you gonna' piss on Charles' sofa?

Future meltdown coming methinks.

224 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:54:31pm

re: #187 Gus 802

The root cause of course was because Berg was a) Jewish and b) a liberal talk show host.

That was not the root cause. That was the result. The root cause is the why of it, what pointed them in that direction.

While we can't know how much they were swayed by attending Pastor Pete Peters' anti-Semitic, anti-gay church, there is certainly a connection there. Maybe they were Nazi already and thus attracted to the church. Maybe the church strengthened their beliefs in Nazi principles and made them feel righteous in such violence. It certainly drew attention to the church, but I missed all that - had no idea about it - until now. I just remember reading of the white power identification of The Order.

225 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:54:52pm

re: #220 Dark_Falcon


Can we forward that to Micheal Steele?

226 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:56:22pm

re: #225 Fenway_Nation

Can we forward that to Micheal Steele?

You can email sense to the GOP but you can't make them follow it.

227 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:56:35pm

re: #224 Catttt

That was not the root cause. That was the result. The root cause is the why of it, what pointed them in that direction.

While we can't know how much they were swayed by attending Pastor Pete Peters' anti-Semitic, anti-gay church, there is certainly a connection there. Maybe they were Nazi already and thus attracted to the church. Maybe the church strengthened their beliefs in Nazi principles and made them feel righteous in such violence. It certainly drew attention to the church, but I missed all that - had no idea about it - until now. I just remember reading of the white power identification of The Order.

Oh, that. Right, I see what you mean. You present a close approximation. Then you have to consider personality factors, environment, etc.

228 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:56:50pm

re: #216 MandyManners

When are you gonna' piss on Charles' sofa?

Lounge Lizard nicked off with the sofa. He is wanted in 3 states now for theft. Be on the lookout for a 8 foot lizard lugging a large soft behind him.

229 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:58:09pm
230 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:58:19pm

Hello Early Morning Lizards! It's allergy season in Near Iowa!

My son's school was closed because of two possible cases of Swine Flu. Today, I recieved and email update and request for information from the headmaster. Seems the County Health Department is trying to determine who has been experiencing ANY symptoms and when.

Nice to know the scientists are working scientifically.

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

231 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:58:44pm

re: #216 MandyManners

When are you gonna' piss on Charles' sofa?

Did anyone take 199 for first troll post?

232 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 10:59:06pm

re: #222 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, coffee! My resurrection potion, that which brings me back from the dead each morning. If I haven't had at least a gallon before the sun reaches its zenith I'm doomed to a day of mediocrity.

Furry! How you-doin?

233 Fenway_Nation  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:23pm

re: #230 ggt

Murders and assassinations carried out by neo-nazis 25 years ago.

234 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:30pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

There are many other threads here today. You say "every time" you pull up the blog, there is a thread connected to evolution. I pulled up the blog three or four times today - each time, until this one, there was a non-evolution thread.

Is my timing better than yours? No, I don't think so. hous, you are, it is obvious to all of us, over-reacting. Usually, people do that because this is a sacred cow in their pasture. When people start bleating about their sacred cows, they take no steps forward and two back. People roll their eyes. You convince no one and alienate many.

I also see that your nick is not blue. If you want to choose your own topics, why not start a blog of your own?

235 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:00:42pm

re: #222 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, coffee! My resurrection potion, that which brings me back from the dead each morning. If I haven't had at least a gallon before the sun reaches its zenith I'm doomed to a day of mediocrity.

Without coffee, life itself would not be possible. I drink about 4 cups of the high powered pricey variety.

236 sngnsgt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:01:28pm

re: #222 FurryOldGuyJeans

Amen.

237 redc1c4  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:01:30pm

re: #229 Iron Fist

I won't disagree with you. The power of the purse is mighty, and the Federal Government has used the authority derrived from there for many purposes that were not for the good of society. There has been some scaling back by the Supreme Court, notably in Second Amendment jurisprudance.


Source
What is of note is that this is the notoriously liberal Ninth Circuit. If they will incorporate the Second to the State based on due process, it would be difficult to think of another appelete court that wouldn't on the face of things.

Decision, incorporation, and strict scruitney, and most gun control is out of here. It won't happen next year, but within the next ten it might. That, too, will be a lasting gift of freedom from the Bush Administration. We wouldn't be any where near here without the Heller decision.

that needs to be read again: the 9th Circus didn't want to find that way, but if you read the decision, they felt they were left with no choice.

Heller is a game changing call.

238 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:02:10pm

re: #232 ggt

Furry! How you-doin?

Would you believe 3 quarts low on my coffee intake?

(No)

Would you believe just finishing up a cuppa? ;)

/ now who knows where that exchange came from?

239 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:03:37pm

re: #225 Fenway_Nation

Can we forward that to Micheal Steele?

Yes, please do. Obama's meddling in Chrysler is the kind of issue the whole party can get behind, if the case is made properly. On issue like that, the key not to give Obama a little push-back, but to give him a Chicago Bears Linebacker Blitz. We win by being pro-freedom, and matter like this give us our chance to make the case that we are pro-freedom.

240 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:03:56pm

re: #235 Gus 802

Without coffee, life itself would not be possible. I drink about 4 cups of the high powered pricey variety.

Cups?!? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT! 4 POTS is about normal for me ;)

And I refuse to drink that bilge water swill from that evil company based in Seattle. I care about my kidneys and colon, thank you very much. ;)

241 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:04:55pm

re: #227 Gus 802

Oh, that. Right, I see what you mean. You present a close approximation. Then you have to consider personality factors, environment, etc.

For sure. And I am not certain how one would suss this out. Although the murder itself is notorious, I don't know offhand of any in-depth research on the particular guys who attended the church.

Personally, in general terms, I think just having a church of this sort to go to tacitly justifies these bigoted beliefs. People don't go to such churches by mistake, or if they do, they don't stay long, so I'm sure these guys were already bigoted, but the church gives them a way to claim they're doing it for God - literally. That of course is what terrorists of all faiths do. That is part of why I think this is important.

242 BatGuano  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:06:08pm

re: #238 FurryOldGuyJeans

Get Smart

243 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:07:02pm
244 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:08:52pm

re: #242 BatGuano

Get Smart

Doesn't help that I am currently having that show appearing at the top of my Netflix queue. One of the best comedies ever I must say.

245 victor_yugo  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:17pm

re: #158 EmmmieG

If it were original, it would be in a museum. I'll never be wealthy enough to own anything that would go in a museum.

Don't be too sure about that. I once found two Eastern Orthodox icons at a garage sale for 25 cents, that together were worth about $1,200. They had been smuggled out of the USSR shortly after the Communist revolution. God only knows how many gave their lives to protect these precious artifacts. Maybe none, maybe several.

I sent both icons to their Russian home in 1993, as my way of defending against residual Communism. I pray that God holds it in my favor on Judgment Day.

246 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:09:52pm
247 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:12pm

re: #246 hous bin pharteen

All you want to do is curse the darkness while you sit on the bushel covering the light.

248 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:19pm

re: #245 victor_yugo

That's so great! Did you hear back from the people in Russia?

249 rawmuse  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:11:45pm

re: #246 hous bin pharteen

I recommend you log off politely while you are still able.
You'll thank me later.

250 victor_yugo  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:13:51pm

re: #248 Pvt Bin Jammin

Nope, and I had no expectation to. It was enough to trust the hands into which I put the icons when I last saw them.

251 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:15:35pm

re: #249 rawmuse

I recommend you log off politely while you are still able.
You'll thank me later.

Good and sound advice so rarely gets followed by rude and belligerent folks.

252 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:16pm

re: #250 victor_yugo

Nope, and I had no expectation to. It was enough to trust the hands into which I put the icons when I last saw them.

That would be enough for me too, I was just curious. Such a wonderful find and such a great deed to return them.

253 Buster Bunny  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:16:24pm

re: #246 hous bin pharteen

Nope. No one did. I just have a different view of things. You can wander around lost in the woods all you want. Even if you don't know where your at

Yes but if you sit in the woods with a feather hat on and make loud pheasant sounds .. you may just end up attracting a bear that thinks you are fodder.

Your differing views are appreciated. Moderate them.

254 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:17:27pm

re: #241 Catttt

For sure. And I am not certain how one would suss this out. Although the murder itself is notorious, I don't know offhand of any in-depth research on the particular guys who attended the church.

Personally, in general terms, I think just having a church of this sort to go to tacitly justifies these bigoted beliefs. People don't go to such churches by mistake, or if they do, they don't stay long, so I'm sure these guys were already bigoted, but the church gives them a way to claim they're doing it for God - literally. That of course is what terrorists of all faiths do. That is part of why I think this is important.

Yep. They would have to have a predisposition. You can take one person and expose them to a certain ideology and each will have a distinct reaction. Like being exposed to neo-Nazi propaganda will have a different effect on different people. I suppose they were already bigoted so they sought a group to share their bigoted feelings. That would be combined with anti-social and criminal behavior which led to a lethal mix.

The group leader may have been a motivational factor in their behavior that led to the criminal act. It would have to be a motivation far greater than ideology however and it probably approaches a primitive part of the mind that overwhelms the already mentally defective individuals such as the killers in question. Of course I'm not implying an insanity defense by any means. However, the overwhelming evidence is that the neo-Nazi subculture is replete with primitive and archaic minds.

255 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:00pm

re: #253 Buster Bunny

Yes but if you sit in the woods with a feather hat on and make loud pheasant sounds .. you may just end up attracting a bear that thinks you are fodder.

I don't care who you are, that is one of the funniest things ever written! ;)

256 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:18:35pm

re: #233 Fenway_Nation

Murders and assassinations carried out by neo-nazis 25 years ago.

ah!

257 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:04pm

re: #251 FurryOldGuyJeans

Good and sound advice so rarely gets followed by rude and belligerent folks.

No kiddin?

258 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:29pm

re: #238 FurryOldGuyJeans

Would you believe 3 quarts low on my coffee intake?

(No)

Would you believe just finishing up a cuppa? ;)

/ now who knows where that exchange came from?

Yes, I would believe it as I have also.

Sad in a way, but satisfying!

259 BatGuano  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:19:29pm

re: #244 FurryOldGuyJeans

Notice in the opening sequence in the early episodes he pulls up in a Sunbeam Tiger and in layer episodes it's a Karmann Ghia.

260 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:20:18pm

re: #259 BatGuano

Notice in the opening sequence in the early episodes he pulls up in a Sunbeam Tiger and in layer episodes it's a Karmann Ghia.

And having his shoe phone ring at a concert was something totally unusual.

261 Gus  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:20:31pm

The Band- The Weight

262 itellu3times  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:21:37pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

Islamic terrorists are on the march, ...

There's a hold up in the Bronx,
Brooklyn's broken out in fights.
There's a traffic jam in Harlem
That's backed up to Jackson Heights.
There's a scout troup short a child,
Kruschev's due at Idlewild
Hey LGF, Where Are You?
/Car 54

263 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:21:54pm

re: #257 Liberal Classic

No kiddin?

You obviously don't know me very well.

I'll leave it at that.

264 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:22:28pm

re: #262 itellu3times

There's a hold up in the Bronx,
Brooklyn's broken out in fights.
There's a traffic jam in Harlem
That's backed up to Jackson Heights.
There's a scout troup short a child,
Kruschev's due at Idlewild
Hey LGF, Where Are You?
/Car 54

Oooh! Oooh! ;)

265 BatGuano  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:26pm

re: #264 FurryOldGuyJeans

/Was the show that featured toody and Muldoon? Rhetorical question.

266 Clemente  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:35pm

re: #240 FurryOldGuyJeans

Cups?!? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT! 4 POTS is about normal for me ;)

And I refuse to drink that bilge water swill from that evil company based in Seattle. I care about my kidneys and colon, thank you very much. ;)

And for the price of a large fancy cup at the boutique, you can just about brew those four pots! I don't get the attraction, but I'm prolly just not cool enough. Good beans, grinder, walmart distilled water, Mr Coffee - dollar a pot - life's good!

267 Liberal Classic  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:25:46pm

re: #263 FurryOldGuyJeans

You obviously don't know me very well.

I'll leave it at that.

I'd actually like to start over, so we can get off on the right foot.

268 itellu3times  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:26:18pm

re: #47 Liberal Classic

People familiar with the situation in Texas are aware that creationists have been targeting other parts of the curriculum. I've read about their suggested changes to earth science and space science classes, but this is the first I've read about social studies.

Jesus was the first president of the United States, that was founded in revolution against Satan. Then the Rocky Mountains were built by the True Chosen People. Meanwhile the Joos moved to Hollywood and filmed that thing about the moon landings, or else Jesus would have come back in the year 2000 and we would all be in the Kngdom by now.

More time for recess ...
/

269 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:26:19pm

re: #246 hous bin pharteen

Iron Fist Rule may be kicking in here. Time to retire, perhaps.

270 Catttt  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:27:14pm

re: #268 itellu3times

Jesus was the first president of the United States, that was founded in revolution against Satan. Then the Rocky Mountains were built by the True Chosen People. Meanwhile the Joos moved to Hollywood and filmed that thing about the moon landings, or else Jesus would have come back in the year 2000 and we would all be in the Kngdom by now.

More time for recess ...
/

Except that the moon landing was done in Arizona. Or was it Nevada? /

271 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:28:08pm

Any lizard that is has a bit of a background in investing or economics ought to watch the video interview on this page (it is from "yahoo finance" and I haven't hacked the URL to do a direct link)

It basically goes over the credit market impacts of the Chrysler BK filing and associated uncertainty. Specifically, the whole issue of "counterparty risk" (which, as applied to mortgages, was the problem that led to the bailout of AIG) is discussed related to car makers going BK.

The net of it is that the implications of the BK action haven't been thought out and the policy choices of the Obama administration have us "swimming backwards" rather than dealing with the problem.

Nite all. Watch the markets tomorrow - critical day.

272 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:28:43pm

You-all may remember that I am listening to War and Peace, which is flawlessly narrated by Neville Jason--a master. The writing is beautiful.

Being me, I have to look up the history of the era and critques of the book itself. I have learned that Leo Tolstoy, himself, WAS A WHACKO.

Learning that one of his books inspired both Ghandi and MLK Jr., I ordered it. I read one chapter and nearly vomited. I will venture to finish it as time permits.

Not only is GK Chesteron's assessment correct, I now have a whole new tangent of history to research.

Luckily the current Dalai Lama stated that non-violent resistance is useless against terrorists--as their hearts aren't open to the truth. I'm glad to know that there are leaders, religious and otherwise, who are sane.

273 itellu3times  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:33:06pm

re: #271 karmic_inquisitor

Nite all. Watch the markets tomorrow - critical day.

No surprises, really, market will continue to whistle noisily past the graveyard.

No new issues here of counterparty risk, I'm more peeved at Obama's mouting off about "willingness to sacrifice" with other people's money.

274 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:20pm

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

"Boo hoo! Charles doesn't make every post on his blog about my pet grievances or my concern du jour"!

I'd call you a whiny little girl, but that would be an insult to little girls. Even the ones that do whine.

275 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:35:23pm

re: #272 ggt

You-all may remember that I am listening to War and Peace, which is flawlessly narrated by Neville Jason--a master. The writing is beautiful.

Being me, I have to look up the history of the era and critques of the book itself. I have learned that Leo Tolstoy, himself, WAS A WHACKO.

Learning that one of his books inspired both Ghandi and MLK Jr., I ordered it. I read one chapter and nearly vomited. I will venture to finish it as time permits.

Not only is GK Chesteron's assessment correct, I now have a whole new tangent of history to research.

Luckily the current Dalai Lama stated that non-violent resistance is useless against terrorists--as their hearts aren't open to the truth. I'm glad to know that there are leaders, religious and otherwise, who are sane.

The Dalai Lama is indeed a very wise man. I've heard him speak and his arguements are always well-reasoned and properly thought out.

276 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 30, 2009 11:38:28pm

re: #246 hous bin pharteen

You can wander around lost in the woods all you want. Even if you don't know where your at.

Let me help you. You are at LGF, anti-idiotarian headquarters. You don't like it? Take your happy ass and go back to wandering in the woods.

277 redc1c4  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:16:11am

re: #251 FurryOldGuyJeans

Good and sound advice so rarely gets followed by rude and belligerent folks.

how about good and sound advice proffered by rude and belligerent folk?

278 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:21:36am

re: #277 redc1c4

I had no idea you thought my advice was both good and sound. Thanks, Red.
/

279 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:40:15am

re: #277 redc1c4

how about good and sound advice proffered by rude and belligerent folk?

Hell, I'd be at the head of the line doing the proffering. ;)

280 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:44:09am
281 SixDegrees  Fri, May 1, 2009 4:19:24am

'Wallbuilders'. Seems appropriate, given that they're building walls between the GOP and the electorate.

282 quickjustice  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:25:48am

Adios, cucaracha! (Quick, get the Raid! There are more cucarachas crawling through the cracks!)

283 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:49:19am

re: #199 hous bin pharteen

Islamic terrorists are on the march, which city gets hit next? GM and Chrysler are in the toilet, the national debt is out of control, taxes are going to go through the roof, our new president, Barack Asama, is screwing members of the CIA and the Armed Forces while taking jet photo ops that have people running for there live's in fear, so every time I tune in to LGF the major concern is creationism?
Yeah. That is very important. What is next? Arguing what we had for breakfast? Coffee or orange juice?

Yeah, imagine thinking that the education of our children was any sort of important issue! We must be crazy huh?

Or maybe you're just an idiot.

284 KSK  Fri, May 1, 2009 7:27:56am

This creationist nonsense doesn't belong anywhere in education, or are we going to teach kids about Xenu and Thetans at school as well?

285 jvic  Fri, May 1, 2009 8:57:35am

Meanwhile (not to necessarily be taken at face value, but still noteworthy):

The U.S. is a bit late to the global stem cell research game. Japan’s Dr. Shinya Yamanaka demonstrated the ability to reprogram adult cells to behave as embryonic stem cells as early as 2007. But it is in China’s Guangdong Province that there have been almost miraculous strides in actually using stem cells to treat and cure diseases such as blindness, cerebral palsy, and spinal cord injuries.
...
Regenerative medicine is the future. Asia will be at its center. More and more western scholars and doctors are coming to China to collaborate.

If I were the Chinese, I'd donate heavily to American creationists and Western environmental extremists.

286 rhymeswithright  Fri, May 1, 2009 9:48:53am

Don't forget, though, that the Bible is legitimately viewed as a historical work -- though one that has to be contextualized among other evidence. Modern archaeology confirms much of what is found in the Bible (though certainly not all), and therefore it is not only appropriate, but also essential, to use the Bible as one historical resource among many.

287 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:15am

re: #286 rhymeswithright

Don't forget, though, that the Bible is legitimately viewed as a historical work -- though one that has to be contextualized among other evidence. Modern archaeology confirms much of what is found in the Bible (though certainly not all), and therefore it is not only appropriate, but also essential, to use the Bible as one historical resource among many.

Nonsense. The Bible is a religious book; there are almost no historians who view it as a valid work of history. Some of the events in the Bible may have occurred as described, but almost none of them are entirely accurate, and ALL of them must be verified by outside sources, because the authorship of most of it is unclear.

Only fundamentalists consider the Bible a valid work of history.

288 funky chicken  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #285 jvic

Meanwhile (not to necessarily be taken at face value, but still noteworthy):

If I were the Chinese, I'd donate heavily to American creationists and Western environmental extremists.

Awww, c'mon. It's not like the creationists can do any harm to the country, right? You made an excellent point about the damage these folks and the environuts do to the American economy and people.

289 RhymesWithRight  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:04:07pm

re: #287 Charles

Charles -- you are woefully misinformed. Not only that, you utterly misinterpret my comment, which explicitly insists that the Bible needs to be contextualized with archaeological and other evidence when used as a historical document.

But then again, what do I know? I am merely a non-fundamentalist with advanced degrees in the social sciences from state universities who works professionally in the field of history and keeps current with the literature.

290 RhymesWithRight  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:14:58pm

Oh, and here is a great comment from another thread supporting the very point that I am trying to make.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

291 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:46:22pm

re: #290 RhymesWithRight

Oh, and here is a great comment from another thread supporting the very point that I am trying to make.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

That post doesn't illustrate any examples of using the Bible as a historical source, it's about using archaology to try to prove that the events in the Bible were real.

292 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:49:56pm

re: #289 RhymesWithRight

Charles -- you are woefully misinformed. Not only that, you utterly misinterpret my comment, which explicitly insists that the Bible needs to be contextualized with archaeological and other evidence when used as a historical document.

But then again, what do I know? I am merely a non-fundamentalist with advanced degrees in the social sciences from state universities who works professionally in the field of history and keeps current with the literature.

How's the search for Noah's Ark going?

293 RhymesWithRight  Fri, May 1, 2009 7:17:10pm

re: #291 Jimmah

That post doesn't illustrate any examples of using the Bible as a historical source, it's about using archaology to try to prove that the events in the Bible were real.

Flip sides of the same coin, Jimmah. If the events of the Bible are, in fact, historically verifiable, that makes it a valid historical document.

294 RhymesWithRight  Fri, May 1, 2009 7:21:05pm

re: #292 Jimmah

How's the search for Noah's Ark going?

Ifg such an artifact ever existed, I'm not sure that it would survive today.

On the other hand, the information regarding the Davidic/Solomonic kingdom and the later divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah is much more likely to be verifiable historically -- and is daily being verified using the scientific techniques of archaeology.

Why are you so fearful of recognizing that the Bible is certainly, in part, a historical document and deserves to be treated as such in history classrooms?

295 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 1, 2009 7:23:31pm

re: #294 RhymesWithRight

Ifg such an artifact ever existed, I'm not sure that it would survive today.

Such an artifact never existed. It's a fairy tale. An allegory. Completely impossible in the real world.

I'm trying to break this to you gently.

296 rhymeswithright  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:24:38am

re: #295 Charles

Such an artifact never existed. It's a fairy tale. An allegory. Completely impossible in the real world.

I'm trying to break this to you gently.

Nice job, Charles, in ignoring the point of my entire argument. After I indicate that I particularly believe that there ever was a Noah's ark, you belittle me by acting as if I claim it did.

In the mean time, you fail to deal with my actual point -- that valid scientific research is daily revealing that large chunks of the historical books of the Bible are accurate (and certainly no less than other ancient documents accepted as historical works by scholars). Why do you find that concept so threatening? And why are you apparently afraid to even consider what many historians and archaeologists already accept?


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