Krauthammer Parses the ‘Torture’ Claims

Opinion • Views: 2,798

Another excellent column from Charles Krauthammer: The Use of Torture and What Nancy Pelosi Knew.

Torture is an impermissible evil. Except under two circumstances. The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent’s life is at stake. The bad guy you have captured possesses information that could save this life. He refuses to divulge. In such a case, the choice is easy. Even John McCain, the most admirable and estimable torture opponent, says openly that in such circumstances, “You do what you have to do.” And then take the responsibility.

Some people, however, believe you never torture. Ever. They are akin to conscientious objectors who will never fight in any war under any circumstances, and for whom we correctly show respect by exempting them from war duty. But we would never make one of them Centcom commander. Private principles are fine, but you don’t entrust such a person with the military decisions upon which hinges the safety of the nation. It is similarly imprudent to have a person who would abjure torture in all circumstances making national security decisions upon which depends the protection of 300 million countrymen.

The second exception to the no-torture rule is the extraction of information from a high-value enemy in possession of high-value information likely to save lives. This case lacks the black-and-white clarity of the ticking time bomb scenario. We know less about the length of the fuse or the nature of the next attack. But we do know the danger is great. (One of the “torture memos” noted that the CIA had warned that terrorist “chatter” had reached pre-9/11 levels.) We know we must act but have no idea where or how — and we can’t know that until we have information. Catch-22.

Under those circumstances, you do what you have to do. And that includes waterboarding. (To call some of the other “enhanced interrogation” techniques — face slap, sleep interruption, a caterpillar in a small space — torture is to empty the word of any meaning.)

Read the whole thing…

Jump to bottom

293 comments
1 S'latch  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:29:03am

I hope everyone in the United States reads that column.

2 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:29:29am

re: #1 Lawrence Schmerel

I hope everyone in the United States reads that column.

They wont. Thats why support for Obama is so high

3 Danny  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:29:33am

Totally agree with The Hammer except for one thing. If your in the “ticking time bomb” scenario, it’s not torture. It’s self-defense.

4 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:29:48am

Pelosi lied, bin Alshib cried.

5 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:30:18am
Some people, however, believe you never torture. Ever. They are akin to conscientious objectors who will never fight in any war under any circumstances, and for whom we correctly show respect by exempting them from war duty. But we would never make one of them Centcom commander. Private principles are fine, but you don’t entrust such a person with the military decisions upon which hinges the safety of the nation. It is similarly imprudent to have a person who would abjure torture in all circumstances making national security decisions upon which depends the protection of 300 million countrymen.

I love CK’s clarity. he cuts through all the BS.

6 VioletTiger  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:30:22am

Krauthammer makes some very good points. I think the Obama administration has painted itself into a corner. If we ever have another crisis or pending crisis, his has limited options to get intelligence quickly.

7 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:30:41am
We have people walking around in this country that are alive today because this process happened,” asserts Blair’s predecessor, Mike McConnell.


And now these techniques are not allowed. That is frightening.

8 Athos  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:30:43am

Political expediency should never take precedence over doing what is best for the country. Those who put political expediency above everything else do not deserve their political positions.

9 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:32:41am

Tine was when a new regime took over, the walls of the city would become festooned with the heads of the previous regime.

From what I am reading in the newspapers, not much has changed.

10 pink freud  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:32:56am

re: #1 Lawrence Schmerel

If everyone in the US read that column, about half would think Kruathammer was right on and the other half would think the same thing they do of Krauthammer now. Reading this column won’t change anyone’s basic beliefs, especially in today’s world.

11 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:33:28am

Just ask yourself, what has Obama done to make you safer than you were a year ago?

12 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:33:37am

PIMF - time

13 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:33:38am

Krauthammer’s column illustrates the dangerously bad judgement of the left. Bad judgement that is going to get Americans killed.
But there is a bright side because……… they will be able to feel good about themselves.
//////

14 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:34:20am

I had questions Mr. Krauhammer’s judgement pre-election when he seemed caught up in Obama-Love…

Howevre, he is very clear in this matter. I am sick of hearing about so called torture. There is no way these scum will talk unless put under duress… We have to do what we have to do when it is OUR very lives at stake.

15 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:34:35am

re: #1 Lawrence Schmerel

I hope everyone in the United States reads that column.

Even if they did the majority would reject it out of hand because it is not what they want to believe.

16 bubbasbbq  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:34:45am

Personally I think anyone who “opposes torture” either have no clue what torture really is (do a search on the “pear of anguish”, “the rack”, The Brazen Bull”, the flagellum, amongst others to see real torture in action) or just plain want to see America damaged by her enemies.

17 callahan23  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:35:10am

Sorry to go OT that early in the thread.
BREAKING NEWS:

US court in Ohio clears way for deportation of alleged Nazi guard Demjanjuk
CLEVELAND (AP) — A federal appeals court opened the way again Friday for the Justice Department to deport alleged Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk to Germany to face 29,000 counts of accessory to murder.
The three-judge ruling from the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati denied a stay of deportation for the 89-year-old retired autoworker from his suburban Cleveland home.

At last that filth is brought to justice.

18 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:35:37am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just ask yourself, what has Obama done to make you safer than you were a year ago?

Oh, I don’t know - all the nut cases are in DC worshiping himself instead of bothering me.

19 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:35:50am

re: #14 tfc3rid

I had questions Mr. Krauhammer’s judgement pre-election when he seemed caught up in Obama-Love…

Howevre, he is very clear in this matter. I am sick of hearing about so called torture. There is no way these scum will talk unless put under duress… We have to do what we have to do when it is OUR very lives at stake.


Absolutely. Just because they call it torture, does not make it so.

20 callahan23  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:36:39am

re: #17 callahan23

Sorry, PIMF.
Link is missing, here we go.

21 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:36:58am
22 Barking Pumpkin  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:37:38am

As usual Krauthammer is spot on. This should be required reading for everyone in this country over the age of 18. There are none too blind as those who won’t see.

23 samsgran1948  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:37:57am

I most emphatically do not want a repeat of 9/11 or something else of that nature, however … If something were to happen (and again, I don’t want it to happen) I hope it happens in the center of Pelosi’s district and she has to explain to her remaining constituents how it came about.

24 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:38:11am

I just read a comment on DU by someone who wants to throw Krauthammer down a set of stairs in his wheelchair for writing that piece. Such compassionate liberals there.

25 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:38:22am

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

For this, Nancy Pelosi would wreck careers, mount show trials, and rend asunder the US intelligence community?

No. Nancy will do all that to show what happens to those who is in charge and what happens to people who dont follow the right politics.

26 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:39:29am

I love how the Dems want to do nothing more than play politics with National Security… It’s maddening…

27 Bubblehead II  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:39:30am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, as much as I hate to say it. He has kept some of Bushes policies in place. The FISA wire taps for one. Other than that, not much

28 VioletTiger  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:39:45am

re: #13 LGoPs

Krauthammer’s column illustrates the dangerously bad judgement of the left. Bad judgement that is going to get Americans killed.
But there is a bright side because……… they will be able to feel good about themselves.
//////

You use sarc tags, but I am convinced that this is a hallmark of the wealthier left—that self-rightious feeling of ‘doing the right thing’ and being the moral superior to the rest of us. You see it in their tax plans, and social programs, and now in their approach to our defense.

29 Danny  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:40:04am

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

The only “torture” that the US engaged in that anyone has been able to point to is waterboarding—which, by all accounts, was visited upon only three people.

Your forgetting the unbelievably hellish and sadistic “panties-on-head” torture.

30 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:40:13am

re: #27 Bubblehead II

Well, as much as I hate to say it. He has kept some of Bushes policies in place. The FISA wire taps for one. Other than that, not much

Keeping the FISA wiretaps in place is incredible… I am shocked although I really don’t know how often they are using this technique…

31 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:40:39am

re: #29 Danny

Your forgetting the unbelievably hellish and sadistic “panties-on-head” torture.

Can’t wait till those new pics come out… You know, have to be transparent.

32 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:41:22am

Dennis Miller had a good take on waterboarding last night. He said he found it astounding that we would go to the trouble of finding a technique that, while extracting the vital information we needed, did not permanently injure the subject. We really did go out of our way and based on the legal opinions now under dispute, twisted ourselves into pretzels in order not to perform torture. And yet, you would think we were dipping people in acid baths from the reaction of the left. The left is like a screaming toddler having a fit.
We truly have lost our collective minds.

33 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:41:30am

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

For this, Nancy Pelosi would wreck careers, mount show trials, and rend asunder the US intelligence community?

For her this is only payback for being in opposition to her and the great Democratic Socialist ideals of what Amerika should be.

34 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:41:37am
35 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:42:09am

What is it with leftists & show-trials?

Did that start with the French Revolution?

36 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:42:13am

re: #27 Bubblehead II

Well, as much as I hate to say it. He has kept some of Bushes policies in place. The FISA wire taps for one. Other than that, not much

Keeping some old polices in place = inaction on Barry’s part

37 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:42:32am

re: #26 tfc3rid

I love how the Dems want to do nothing more than play politics with National Security… It’s maddening…

Playing politics and campaigning is all they know. And the masses eagerly sop up the bread and circuses provided.

38 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:42:40am

John Gibson right now talking about torture and Jon Stewart’s comment last night that Harry Truman was a war criminal just like Bush because Truman dropped the A-Bomb on the innocents in Japan.

39 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:43:43am

re: #38 tfc3rid

John Gibson right now talking about torture and Jon Stewart’s comment last night that Harry Truman was a war criminal just like Bush because Truman dropped the A-Bomb on the innocents in Japan.

Please tell me he did not just fucking say that.

40 Bubblehead II  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:43:45am

re: #17 callahan23

Only if Germany can get him there. Remember this from the LNDT?

Demjanjuk Sues German Government

*snip*

On Thursday Busch sent a fax to the administrative court in Berlin with the suit: Demjanjuk, “44131 Seven Hills, Ohio, USA” versus “Federal Republic of Germany, represented by the Federal Justice Ministry.” Busch wants to ensure that the Berlin government withdraws its agreement to accept Demjanjuk in Germany.

41 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:43:49am

re: #29 Danny

Your forgetting the unbelievably hellish and sadistic “panties-on-head” torture.

Was that an authorized procedure by the administration, or the unapproved actions of a few sick individuals?

42 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:44:29am

Here’s the scoop on the 2-year-old Mexican boy that died in Houston from swine flu. He wasn’t just a poor Mexican kid that was sneaked across the border; he was the son of a wealthy Mexico City architect.

Dead child came from prosperous family

HOUSTON — The family of a Mexico City toddler who became the first swine flu death in the United States have returned home with the child’s cremated remains.

Greg Compean of Compean Funeral Home in Houston identified the child who died Monday at a Houston hospital as Miguel Tejada Vazquez. He says the birth date the family provided for the child placed his age at 21 months. Federal, state and city officials had given the age as 22 and 23 months.

Compean tells the San Antonio Express-News for a story in Friday’s editions that Miguel was the youngest of six children of the large, “well-to-do” family of a Mexico City architect. He says Miguel, his mother and two brothers were visiting a family friend in Brownsville when he became ill April 6, the day after a visit to Houston.

43 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:44:33am

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Please tell me he did not just fucking say that.

Jon Stewart said that…

44 SteveC  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:44:33am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just ask yourself, what has Obama done to make you safer than you were a year ago?

He shut down Chrysler and got those carbon spitting, global warming monsters off the road! One down, two to go…!

/Please, tell me I don’t need to /////

45 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:44:46am

re: #41 FurryOldGuyJeans

Was that an authorized procedure by the administration, or the unapproved actions of a few sick individuals?

That was a weekend at Gavin Newsom’s place

46 Danny  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:44:51am

re: #34 buzzsawmonkey

You are speaking of the Abu Ghraib actions which, unlike the activities at Gitmo, were the moronic diversions of rogue actors who were brought to justice for their unauthorized behavior.

Not comparable.

Wow, so it’s even worse…UNAUTHORIZED panties-on-head torture. ;)

47 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:45:21am

re: #43 tfc3rid

Jon Stewart said that…

[deleted]

48 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:45:24am

re: #35 unreconstructed rebel

What is it with leftists & show-trials?

Did that start with the French Revolution?

Show trials have been part and parcels of regimes since the dawn of civilization. It is to proclaim loudly, in modern parlance, “I won!”

49 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:45:49am

re: #15 FurryOldGuyJeans

Even if they did the majority would reject it out of hand because it is not what they want to believe.


I’m sure Kos/HuffingPost and the rest of the rabid LLL would resort to attacking The Hammers handicap, rather than think.

50 wiffersnapper  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:07am

Another good piece by MC Krauthammer!

51 BignJames  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:26am

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Please tell me he did not just fucking say that.


He did. I saw it. Stewart said we should have dropped it at sea as a warning. Hell, we dropped it on their heads and they still didn’t surrender.

52 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:28am

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

[deleted]

Gibson played the clip… Not sure who the guest was… Someone who did not agree with Stewart but Stewart was ‘lecturing’ him on how Bush was a war criminal and, in turn, Truman…

53 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:32am

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Please tell me he did not just fucking say that.

Plenty of lefties consider the dropping of the A-bombs to be war crimes (and unnecessary). They’d rather we invaded Japan, costing countless American (and Japanese) lives.

54 Orangutan  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:43am

Krauthammer, as usual, spells out the obvious that the lefty wackos try to shove out of the way. His articulation of what many feel but have a hard time putting out there in a non-confrontational way is a high service, not unlike the way Victor Davis Hanson is able to clear up a lot of wacko hysteria about history.

Thanks to both.

55 MrSilverDragon  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:48am

re: #13 LGoPs

…because……… they will be able to feel good about themselves nothing when they are dead.

My take.

56 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:55am
57 JacksonTn  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:46:57am

re: #42 Ward Cleaver

Here’s the scoop on the 2-year-old Mexican boy that died in Houston from swine flu. He wasn’t just a poor Mexican kid that was sneaked across the border; he was the son of a wealthy Mexico City architect.

Dead child came from prosperous family

Ward … what do you think the government will do? … do you think they will close the borders … we have told all our H2A workers on our farms they cannot go home … and if they do they have to stay … we don’t know what to do … some of them are worried about their family members in Mexico …

58 2by2  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:47:01am

Torture is an impermissible evil. Except under two circumstances. The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent’s life is at stake. The bad guy you have captured possesses information that could save this life. He refuses to divulge. In such a case, the choice is easy. Even John McCain, the most admirable and estimable torture opponent, says openly that in such circumstances, “You do what you have to do.” And then take the responsibility.
………and then don’t divulge that information on a PA system, I might add.

59 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:47:09am

re: #49 Ben Hur

I’m sure Kos/HuffingPost and the rest of the rabid LLL would resort to attacking The Hammers handicap, rather than think.

Leftoids FEEL, not think. Remember that.

60 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:47:31am

re: #51 BignJames

He did. I saw it. Stewart said we should have dropped it at sea as a warning. Hell, we dropped it on their heads and they still didn’t surrender.

They would gamble that we only had one.

61 quickjustice  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:47:50am

The Democrats knew all about the Bush Administration’s policies for extracting information. Not one of them voted to strip them of funding, or protested them at the time. Now, President Obama is diffident about whether Bush Administration CIA operatives, and their contractors, will be prosecuted.

A modest proposal: Tell Obama and the Democrats that we support legislation enabling new presidents to prosecute members of the previous administration for their political beliefs and discretionary decisions. And when the GOP retakes power, President Obama, his entire administration, and former Democratic congressmen all go on trial for their political crimes and discretionary decisions committed while in office./

No one in his right mind would serve this President. He doesn’t have their backs, and he doesn’t care about having their backs.

62 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:47:53am

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They wont. Thats why support for Obama is so high

re: #24 Mad Al-Jaffee

I just read a comment on DU by someone who wants to throw Krauthammer down a set of stairs in his wheelchair for writing that piece. Such compassionate liberals there.

If they did read it, they’d react pretty much like that DUmmy. This is what we get when pillow-biters, bleeding-hearts, hand-wringers and CaucasianGuilt® runs the tragicomical triumvirate we call academia, media, and entertainment.

63 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:48:23am

Another thing that is missing in the publishing of these torture memos and pictures is any corresponding presentation of what the other side is doing. If the relentless search for truth is the ACLU’s true objective, where is the demand to release details and photos of what Al-Quada does to our people. Seeing reports of their beheadings and mutilations would certainly give the audience pause as they made comparison to our relatively tame actions. But seeking the truth is not the ACLU’s true agenda. Humiliating and defaming and hurting America is their true goal. And that needs to be shouted out from the rooftops.
The ACLU is the enemy.

64 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:48:45am

Leftoids and Dems are so willing to sacrifice my life and those of whom I know to prove “they care”.

Fucking hypocrites.

65 Bubblehead II  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:48:51am

re: #30 tfc3rid

Well, I bet If I really wanted to dig around, I could find some nut job that is insisting that the only reason he left them intact is so he can spy on his enemies.

But since I just bathed this morning, I don’t want to have to do it again.

66 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:49:21am

So?

When do we start acting like the Left and blame the assassination attempt on the royal family of Holland on Obama and his policies.

I mean, he did it because he lost his job in the global economic meltdown.

67 Kenneth  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:49:37am
68 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:49:55am

Madame Speaker Pelosi is COLD BUSTED on this one. Best she just remains quiet on this issue in the future.

-S-

69 SteveC  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:50:55am

re: #43 tfc3rid

Jon Stewart said that…

And all the little Stewart followers laughed, and thought they were so, so cool; never even thinking about the fact that Truman saved their lives by saving their grandfathers.

Dumbf***ks.

70 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:51:33am

re: #67 Kenneth

Joe Biden’s Pandemic Threat Level Advisory

The administration kept Gaffey Joe under wraps for weeks, and the first time they prop him up in front of a camera he promptly swallow his foot clear up to his thigh.

Man, for the days of Dan Quayle.

71 avanti  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:51:34am

re: #53 Ward Cleaver

Plenty of lefties consider the dropping of the A-bombs to be war crimes (and unnecessary). They’d rather we invaded Japan, costing countless American (and Japanese) lives.

Misguided lefties. The A bomb saved countless lives on both sides.

72 callahan23  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:51:45am

re: #40 Bubblehead II

Still I hope that this ‘alleged’ monster is brought to justice. I don’t think that judicial dodging will get him anywhere.
And being true to the subject matter of this thread it is nice to see that he is being ‘troubled’ so much with all the law cases and the media.

73 Athos  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:51:46am

re: #24 Mad Al-Jaffee

I just read a comment on DU by someone who wants to throw Krauthammer down a set of stairs in his wheelchair for writing that piece. Such compassionate liberals there.

Typical response of theirs towards facts and cogent information. If it doesn’t conform to their groupthink……..

74 Bubblehead II  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:51:52am

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

True, when I reread your post I realized what you were asking. In which case the answer is of course, nothing.

75 jcm  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:52:02am

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Please tell me he did not just fucking say that.

He did.

76 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:52:16am

re: #43 tfc3rid

Jon Stewart said that…

Whom more people my age get their news from…
WASS.

77 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:52:33am

re: #68 Dr. Shalit

Madame Speaker Pelosi is COLD BUSTED on this one. Best she just remains quiet on this issue in the future.

-S-

Hardly. She will spout off because she knows the DNC propaganda machine, the FMSM, will bury any inconvenient facts for her.

78 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:53:01am

re: #53 Ward Cleaver

Plenty of lefties consider the dropping of the A-bombs to be war crimes (and unnecessary). They’d rather we invaded Japan, costing countless American (and Japanese) lives.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fucking military targets. If they ever bothered to fucking learn actual history instead of the crap like “social justice” and “Marxist Theory” they would know that.

Pissed way beyond words right now

79 JacksonTn  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:53:08am

re: #76 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Whom more people my age get their news from…
WASS.

BDVM … what is WASS? Whiney Ass Socialist Shits? …

80 BignJames  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:53:12am

re: #60 Ben Hur

They would gamble that we only had one.

Not smart….we’re Americans…”There’s more where that came from.”

81 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:53:17am

re: #77 FurryOldGuyJeans


That’s you!

You are a little furry.

82 jcm  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:53:24am

re: #69 SteveC

And all the little Stewart followers laughed, and thought they were so, so cool; never even thinking about the fact that Truman saved their lives by saving their grandfathers.

Dumbf***ks.

I post this every time the subject comes up.

War deaths 1900 - August 1945 120 million.
War deaths August 1945 - 1990 17 million.

83 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:53:33am

re: #53 Ward Cleaver

Plenty of lefties consider the dropping of the A-bombs to be war crimes (and unnecessary). They’d rather we invaded Japan, costing countless American (and Japanese) lives.

These same lefties would not have opened their mouths to complain if the bombs had been dropped on the Germans — they were evil WHITE people, dont you know?

84 VioletTiger  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:53:37am

re: #70 FurryOldGuyJeans

The administration kept Gaffey Joe under wraps for weeks, and the first time they prop him up in front of a camera he promptly swallow his foot clear up to his thigh.

Man, for the days of Dan Quayle.


I was thinking the same thing. I was ondering where they were hiding Joe. Shall we take bets on how long it will be before they trot him out again?

85 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:54:02am

re: #76 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Whom more people my age get their news from…
WASS.

Exactly… And they believe it and him…

86 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:54:03am

re: #46 Danny

You might actually want to meet a clue someday.

87 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:54:32am

re: #70 FurryOldGuyJeans

The administration kept Gaffey Joe under wraps for weeks, and the first time they prop him up in front of a camera he promptly swallow his foot clear up to his thigh.

Man, for the days of Dan Quayle.

When discussing Joe Biden, remember the First Rule of Comedy: Always have Instant Rimshot at the ready!

88 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:54:58am

BBL

89 yma o hyd  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:54:59am

re: #78 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fucking military targets. If they ever bothered to fucking learn actual history instead of the crap like “social justice” and “Marxist Theory” they would know that.

Pissed way beyond words right now

Joining you in being mightily pissed off.
According to them, Churchill also is a war criminal - he bombed innocent German civilians …

Their rule: our side = war criminals; The Enemy = innocent little kittehs.

90 Syrah  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:55:17am

re: #71 avanti

Misguided lefties. The A bomb saved countless lives on both sides.

It may be deeper than just being misguided. I don’t think it is accidental at all.

Something you may want to add to your summer reading list.

91 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:55:51am

Lying about if you knew before hand about CIA waterboarding of terror suspects right after 3000 of your fellow Americans were murdered?

There’s an app for that.

92 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:55:53am

re: #79 JacksonTn

BDVM … what is WASS? Whiney Ass Socialist Shits? …

We Are So Screwed.

93 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:55:54am

re: #84 VioletTiger

I was thinking the same thing. I was ondering where they were hiding Joe. Shall we take bets on how long it will be before they trot him out again?

I seriously suspect he will be kept hidden until they need a high-level sacrifice for some major fuck-up such as a new terrorist attack.

94 subsailor68  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:55:57am

C’mon guys. You just don’t understand where the Kos kiddies are coming from. Well, let me tell you, after subscribing to Kosmopolitan, I have a whole new appreciation for these folks. Just a few of the articles in the newest issue:

Birkenstocks - Okay after Labor Day?
Armpit Hair Makeovers for Guys - AND Gals!
Renovating Mom’s Basement - A Guide to Creating that Sure-Fire Bachelor Pad
Sex! What it Is, and Why You May Not be Getting Any.
The Centerfold - A Kos Kid’s Bestest Friend Ever!

(I’d skip the “10 Most Beautiful Kos Kids” photo-spread however.)

95 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:57:12am

I give it a week before you all are sick of me doing that.

Because I’m gonno do it alot.

96 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:57:26am

re: #90 Syrah

It may be deeper than just being misguided. I don’t think it is accidental at all.

Something you may want to add to your summer reading list.

RE: the A-bomb, part of me thinks that the Left is just upset that the Soviets never got the chance to take over half of Japan, like they did with Eastern Europe.

97 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:58:00am

re: #89 yma o hyd

Joining you in being mightily pissed off.
According to them, Churchill also is a war criminal - he bombed innocent German civilians …

Their rule: our side = war criminals; The Enemy = innocent little kittehs.

U.S. Marines = Baby Killers; Abortion on demand = Courageous Doctors

They is something seriously wrong with the minds of these people

98 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:58:29am

re: #95 Ben Hur

I give it a week before you all are sick of me doing that.

Because I’m gonno do it alot.

Didn’t take a week for me. ;)

99 SteveC  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:58:59am

re: #94 subsailor68

(I’d skip the “10 Most Beautiful Kos Kids” photo-spread however.)

My eyyyyyyyyyyes! Pass the bleach! Make it Stop!

Somebody call 1822!

100 Onslow  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:59:01am
101 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:59:07am

re: #95 Ben Hur

I give it a week before you all are sick of me doing that.

Because I’m gonno do it alot.


Could you talk like a pirate for 6 straight weeks?
That never got old..
/not

102 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:59:16am

re: #70 FurryOldGuyJeans

The administration kept Gaffey Joe under wraps for weeks, and the first time they prop him up in front of a camera he promptly swallow his foot clear up to his thigh.

Man, for the days of Dan Quayle.

Robin Williams once said H.W. choose Quayle as insurance. Given all the loose talk up to the elections about what might visit Obama, methinks he did the same.

And Joe’s just as convenient at a more practical level. Complete 100 days. Take a bow. And then run out Joe to show what could have happened instead.

Brilliant.

103 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 10:59:18am

re: #34 buzzsawmonkey

You are speaking of the Abu Ghraib actions which, unlike the activities at Gitmo, were the moronic diversions of rogue actors who were brought to justice for their unauthorized behavior.

Not comparable.

I think Danny forgot the /
Right, Danny?

104 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:00:02am

re: #101 HoosierHoops

Could you talk like a pirate for 6 straight weeks?
That never got old..
/not

Does Ben speak Somali?

105 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:00:04am
106 jcm  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:00:37am

re: #96 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

RE: the A-bomb, part of me thinks that the Left is just upset that the Soviets never got the chance to take over half of Japan, like they did with Eastern Europe.

They got Sakhlin Island and didn’t have to do squat to get that. What more do they want?

World Domination?

107 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:00:54am

The Pear, The Boots, The Rack, The Iron Median, The Hot seat, boiling oil, Thumb Screws, Bamboo Splinters under the finger nails, whips, clubs, fists, kicks, etc I could go on forever describing real torture. All the little nuances of hanging a man from his wrists bound behind his back. REAL torture is not about extracting information, it’s all about punishment pure and simple. A few slaps to the face, playing Metal at odd hours of the morning, and simulating drowning can not compare with the real horrors that have been applied throughout history.

108 Syrah  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:08am

re: #96 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

RE: the A-bomb, part of me thinks that the Left is just upset that the Soviets never got the chance to take over half of Japan, like they did with Eastern Europe.

Well, there might be a little bit of truth to that in the Walter Duranty fringe of the left, but for the most part, it has do with how many on the left view war in general, especially as it relates to things like disproportionate force.

109 ConservatismNow!  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:14am

re: #24 Mad Al-Jaffee

I just read a comment on DU by someone who wants to throw Krauthammer down a set of stairs in his wheelchair for writing that piece. Such compassionate liberals there.

But war is wrong, am I right?

//

110 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:20am

re: #87 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

When discussing Joe Biden, remember the First Rule of Comedy: Always have Instant Rimshot at the ready!

These clowns are running and ruining our Republic. That is not comedy.

111 Danny  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:27am

re: #103 Gang of One

I didn’t forget it, but figured the tongue-in-cheek tone would be obvious. Oh well…

112 yma o hyd  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:36am

re: #97 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

U.S. Marines = Baby Killers; Abortion on demand = Courageous Doctors

They is something seriously wrong with the minds of these people

Yes, indeed there is.
Its bevond rationalising a political attitude. To me, it looks more and more like a pre-rational, childish wordlview where the own thought processes are athrophied - often quite willingly.

113 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:42am

re: #104 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Does Ben speak Somali?

LOL
No, remember Loflyer? He started talking/posting like a pirate and never stopped.

114 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:48am

re: #105 buzzsawmonkey

I had someone tell me that the US was “racist” because we did not drop an atom bomb on Germany. The person was most confused when I explained that Germany had surrendered before the first successful A-bomb test, and that it is not customary to drop heavy weaponry on the enemy after a surrender.

I also pointed out that it was the second bomb that prompted Japan’s surrender.

And we still couldn’t get an unconditional surrender out of the Japanese. We had to exempt the Emperor & the royal family, from any war crimes trials.

115 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:01:59am

re: #100 Onslow

Torture by royal threatens to derail UAE nuke deal

Saw that too.

Now, which camp do you fall into?

The “Why would we stop a multi-billion dollar deal over some farmer getting f*cked up?” camp?

or

The “WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE DOING BUILDING A NUKE PLANT FOT THE UAE?!?!?!?!?!?!?” camp?

116 lawhawk  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:02:12am

re: #8 Athos

Political expediency should never take precedence over doing what is best for the country. Those who put political expediency above everything else do not deserve their political positions.

All statements made by the Obama Administration come with an expiration date. Don’t think for a moment that the Administration wont turn around and start doing the harsh interrogation thing the moment there’s another attack on the US so as to determine whether there’s additional follow-on attacks and to see who else was involved. The American people would demand it - and they’d be demanding heads on spikes - including those in Congress and the Administration who went along with this pablum of claiming that harsh interrogation tactics were “torture” and that we should never use them under any circumstances.

There are reasons why the nation hasn’t suffered another terror attack akin to 9/11 since the attacks, and it has to do with getting the intel from KSM and the other terrorists at Gitmo.

Keep in mind that despite all the claims that they were waterboarded hundreds of times - the sum total of usage was 5 separate sessions. Total.

In eight years.

For a government that is claimed to be so evil and hostile to human rights, five sessions, on three terrorists, over eight years - and most were confined to the first months following their capture, is an extraordinary figure.

This wasn’t something done lightly or without consideration. It was done with the intent to gather as much intel as possible in as short a time period as possible to prevent further attacks. There isn’t anyone in this or any administration who can claim that there was a better way to obtain that information in a timely fashion. Period.

117 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:02:14am

re: #106 jcm

They got Sakhlin Island and didn’t have to do squat to get that. What more do they want?

World Domination?

Yes. We had enough socialists here who wanted exactly that.

118 albusteve  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:02:32am

re: #107 Idle Drifter

The Pear, The Boots, The Rack, The Iron Median, The Hot seat, boiling oil, Thumb Screws, Bamboo Splinters under the finger nails, whips, clubs, fists, kicks, etc I could go on forever describing real torture. All the little nuances of hanging a man from his wrists bound behind his back. REAL torture is not about extracting information, it’s all about punishment pure and simple. A few slaps to the face, playing Metal at odd hours of the morning, and simulating drowning can not compare with the real horrors that have been applied throughout history.

history began just nine years ago…it’s true

119 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:02:40am

re: #111 Danny

I didn’t forget it, but figured the tongue-in-cheek tone would be obvious. Oh well…

Well, efluvia happens, neh?

120 subsailor68  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:03:03am

re: #115 Ben Hur

Saw that too.

Now, which camp do you fall into?

The “Why would we stop a multi-billion dollar deal over some farmer getting f*cked up?” camp?

or

The “WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE DOING BUILDING A NUKE PLANT FOT THE UAE?!?!?!?!?!?!?” camp?

It may just be me, but I’m gonna go with number two on this one.

;-)

121 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:03:10am

re: #107 Idle Drifter

The Pear, The Boots, The Rack, The Iron Median, The Hot seat, boiling oil, Thumb Screws, Bamboo Splinters under the finger nails, whips, clubs, fists, kicks, etc I could go on forever describing real torture. All the little nuances of hanging a man from his wrists bound behind his back. REAL torture is not about extracting information, it’s all about punishment pure and simple. A few slaps to the face, playing Metal at odd hours of the morning, and simulating drowning can not compare with the real horrors that have been applied throughout history.

Is that turning anyone else on?

122 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:03:21am

re: #109 ConservatismNow!

But war is wrong, am I right?

//

War is only acceptable against enemies of the Left who actively resist the takeover.

123 lawhawk  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:03:33am

re: #107 Idle Drifter

The Pear, The Boots, The Rack, The Iron Median, ….

Had problems in math class?

124 jcm  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:03:38am

re: #105 buzzsawmonkey

I had someone tell me that the US was “racist” because we did not drop an atom bomb on Germany. The person was most confused when I explained that Germany had surrendered before the first successful A-bomb test, and that it is not customary to drop heavy weaponry on the enemy after a surrender.

I also pointed out that it was the second bomb that prompted Japan’s surrender.

Which is a good thing, because at that point we ran of the things and it would be a few months before we had any more.

125 SteveC  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:04:52am

re: #123 lawhawk

Had problems in math class?

The Iron Median teaches Algebra. She grades on a harsh curve!

126 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:04:54am

re: #115 Ben Hur

The “WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE DOING BUILDING A NUKE PLANT FOT THE UAE?!?!?!?!?!?!?” camp?

Gets my vote.

127 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:05:01am

re: #124 jcm

Which is a good thing, because at that point we ran of the things and it would be a few months before we had any more.

Yet once we had more it would have been a steady stream of 3 a month IIRC.

128 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:05:31am
129 yma o hyd  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:05:39am

re: #107 Idle Drifter

The Pear, The Boots, The Rack, The Iron Median, The Hot seat, boiling oil, Thumb Screws, Bamboo Splinters under the finger nails, whips, clubs, fists, kicks, etc I could go on forever describing real torture. All the little nuances of hanging a man from his wrists bound behind his back. REAL torture is not about extracting information, it’s all about punishment pure and simple. A few slaps to the face, playing Metal at odd hours of the morning, and simulating drowning can not compare with the real horrors that have been applied throughout history.

Odd, isn’t it: one would have thought that especially the LLL would have had some information on the torture methods commonly used by the GPU/KGB …

130 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:05:48am

re: #107 Idle Drifter

The Pear, The Boots, The Rack, The Iron Median, The Hot seat, boiling oil, Thumb Screws, Bamboo Splinters under the finger nails, whips, clubs, fists, kicks, etc I could go on forever describing real torture. All the little nuances of hanging a man from his wrists bound behind his back. REAL torture is not about extracting information, it’s all about punishment pure and simple. A few slaps to the face, playing Metal at odd hours of the morning, and simulating drowning can not compare with the real horrors that have been applied throughout history.

Erwin Rommel once said that [a certain folk] could no longer succeed in war because they couldn’t stand the noise.

131 Cygnus  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:07am

re: #21 buzzsawmonkey

The only “torture” that the US engaged in that anyone has been able to point to is waterboarding—which, by all accounts, was visited upon only three people.

This supposed “torture” did not damage the people subjected to it; rather, it was imposed in order to induce a temporary panic reaction that would break down their resistance to questioning while leaving them unharmed in any permanent way. Intelligence was gained, and the subjects were subsequently free to grow fat on their gourmet halal cuisine and read the Korans that they were given, delicately handled to avoid kuffar pollution.

For this, Nancy Pelosi would wreck careers, mount show trials, and rend asunder the US intelligence community?

You betcha.

132 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:10am

Whenever we talk about the A-Bomb & Japan, I always like to link to Storming Paradise, a comic book series by Chuck Dixon, a rare conservative comic book writer. The first 4 issues have been out for a while & the next issue is out in a few weeks. It’s a “what if” scenario about the A-Bomb tests failing & the U.S. has to invade Japan. A great read with great art (even though I had to email the author & correct him on 1945 U.S. Navy markings).

133 SteveC  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:10am

re: #124 jcm

Which is a good thing, because at that point we ran of the things and it would be a few months before we had any more.

“We threw everything but the kitchen sink at them.”… this was the equivalent of ripping the sink out and throwing it!

134 Bubblehead II  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:15am

re: #115 Ben Hur

Ummmmmm….. The “WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE DOING BUILDING A NUKE PLANT FOT THE UAE?!?!?!?!?!?!?” camp?

135 hans ze beeman  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:16am

re: #125 SteveC

The Iron Median teaches Algebra. She grades on a harsh curve!

The Iron Median is a relative of the Stone Mode which suffers from kurtosis

136 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:17am

BTW, if any Lizards take HydroxyCut… STOP… NOW…

FDA recall…

137 VioletTiger  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:33am

re: #93 FurryOldGuyJeans

I seriously suspect he will be kept hidden until they need a high-level sacrifice for some major fuck-up such as a new terrorist attack.


Just heard on the radio. Joe has been sent to Bosnia.

138 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:55am

re: #107 Idle Drifter

The Pear, The Boots, The Rack, The Iron Median, The Hot seat, boiling oil, Thumb Screws, Bamboo Splinters under the finger nails, whips, clubs, fists, kicks, etc I could go on forever describing real torture. All the little nuances of hanging a man from his wrists bound behind his back. REAL torture is not about extracting information, it’s all about punishment pure and simple. A few slaps to the face, playing Metal at odd hours of the morning, and simulating drowning can not compare with the real horrors that have been applied throughout history.

Don’t forget…
The Comfy Chair!

139 jcm  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:56am

re: #127 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet once we had more it would have been a steady stream of 3 a month IIRC.

That’s about right, Hanford and the Pu production reactor was coming on line.

Would have been an interesting few months if they’d decided to stick it out.

140 callahan23  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:06:56am

re: #115 Ben Hur

Iam of

The “WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE DOING BUILDING A NUKE PLANT FOR THE UAE?!?!?!?!?!?!?” camp?

100%

141 gmsc  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:07:04am

OT: There are 1,000 fewer voices in Las Vegas today.
:(

Danny Gans just died at the age of 52.

142 hous bin pharteen  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:07:11am

Something you should read. Even if your mad at me still.
My teenage son spent 2 months visiting me on my death bed. So I can relate to this story. I feel for this boy. At least he is going to get allot of support from his fathers comrades. [Link: www.sltrib.com…]

143 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:07:12am
144 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:07:29am

re: #135 hans ze beeman

The Iron Median is a relative of the Stone Mode which suffers from kurtosis

I thought Iron Median was a heavy metal tribute band?

145 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:07:54am

re: #136 tfc3rid

BTW, if any Lizards take HydroxyCut… STOP… NOW…

FDA recall…


Used it, never worked.

146 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:08:06am

re: #137 VioletTiger

Just heard on the radio. Joe has been sent to Bosnia.

Serpentine, Joe, serpentine!

147 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:08:21am

re: #115 Ben Hur

Saw that too.

Now, which camp do you fall into?

The “Why would we stop a multi-billion dollar deal over some farmer getting f*cked up?” camp?

or

The “WHAT THE F*CK ARE WE DOING BUILDING A NUKE PLANT FOT THE UAE?!?!?!?!?!?!?” camp?

I prefer the
WHY THE F*CK ARE WE LETTING PEOPLE STILL IN THE MEDIEVAL WORLD GET MODERN TECHNOLOGY

148 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:08:25am

re: #137 VioletTiger

Just heard on the radio. Joe has been sent to Bosnia.

Oh god, those poor Bosnians.

149 hans ze beeman  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:08:37am

re: #144 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I thought Iron Median was a heavy metal tribute band?

That’s true, but the allusion to the statistical term is quite clear

150 subsailor68  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:08:40am

re: #144 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I thought Iron Median was a heavy metal tribute band?

Loved their hit “Innagadda-division”.

151 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:08:53am

re: #145 Gang of One

Used it, never worked.

What the hell is it used for?

152 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:09:45am

re: #151 FurryOldGuyJeans

What the hell is it used for?


Appetite suppression and fat burning.

153 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:09:45am

re: #121 Ben Hur

Ew.

re: #123 lawhawk

Had problems in math class?

Liberal Arts Class.

154 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:10:29am

re: #137 VioletTiger

Just heard on the radio. Joe has been sent to Bosnia.

Well, he’s got to take a plane there, so I hope he’s ready for the swine flu.

155 Diamond Bullet  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:10:34am

The comments on his columns at the WaPost are always very telling. The people who hate him almost never take on his actual arguments. It’s all just name calling and wild hyperbole about Zionist one-worlders and the like. It’s amazing how all the “hope and change” idealists turn into enraged lunatics whenever someone raises an argument that was not pre-vetted and regurgitated from White House media shills. It’s almost like they’re, oh, I don’t know — invested in ensuring that such a “historic” Presidency doesn’t fail. ‘course, the definitions of failure vary. I think screwing over the country and the military and saddling us with crushing debt is epic failure. They think Obama somehow being blamed for it is.

156 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:11:07am

re: #151 FurryOldGuyJeans

What the hell is it used for?

It’s a fat-burner dietary supplement for weight liftrs/bodybuilders to get more lean. A lot of cafeine and other chemicals that “speed” up metabolism or inhibit the secretion of cortisol.

157 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:11:27am

re: #151 FurryOldGuyJeans

What the hell is it used for?

From what I see, liver damage.

158 Billy Hank  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:12:15am

You want torture? Try this: [Link: www.gosere.com…]

159 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:12:21am

re: #155 Diamond Bullet

People don’t like being jarred from their paradigms. It’s amazing how violent the meekest can get when their paradigm is suddenly shifted for them.

160 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:12:47am

re: #132 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Do you ever read Peter Bagge? He’s not a conservative, but he is pretty Libertarian. I love his work.

161 yesandno  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:13:09am

re: #19 LGoPs

Absolutely. Just because they call it torture, does not make it so.

If you tell a lie long enough, it is no longer a lie for so many. And moral equivalence abounds. Men dragged on the ground, tied to a bridge and burned to a crisp…all without benefit of any constraint on those who did it…is somehow akin to slapping someone in the face.

We should have the pictures broadcast everywhere…we should have the twin towers on the TV all the time with the planes going into them and people jumping. Then when you mention someone being placed in a small place with a caterpillar will take on a whole new meaning.

162 Raiderdan  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:13:15am

Something tells me if the GOP just dropped the stealth creationist talk and “intelligent design” crap and went back to its strength of doing whatever it takes to keep Americans safe, there wouldn’t be this civil war on the right and the left would be very very worried about 2010.

At least somebody in the Washington GOP leadership has a clue.


http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/04/30/house-gop-leaders-accuse-obama-of-making-nation-less-safe/


House Minority Leader John Boehner of Ohio and Intelligence Committee Ranking Member Pete Hoekstra of Michigan in a new Web video are accusing President Barack Obama of making decisions that have left the nation more vulnerable to attack.

“On day 101 of this Administration, the American people are beginning to ask some serious questions about what Democrats in Washington are doing to keep America safe,” Boehner and Hoekstra said in a statement.

Specifically, the Republican leaders cite Obama’s decision to close the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay and the recent release of information regarding U.S. interrogation programs, which included methods that the administration and human rights groups consider torture.

According to the latest Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 42% approve of the decision to close Gitmo while 50% disapprove. On the release of memos, 40% approved and 53% disapproved.

The provocative video, entitled “Do You Feel Safer?” is set to ominous music that includes clips of news articles about prisoners coming in to the U.S., clips of terrorist training camps, and a news clip with former Central Intelligence Agency director Michael Hayden criticizing the release of the CIA memos.

Notably, the video also uses a photo clip of the president bowing to Saudi King Abdullah at the G-20 meeting in London earlier this month, the White House has denied it was a bow. There is also a photo clips of Obama shaking hands with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, Arabs burning an American flag, bombs going off, and a bombed building.

“After 100 days, do you feel safer?” the video concludes.

Now thats how you put pressure the quarterback, Charles. Democrats said Bush made America less safe, but there was no terrorist attack in the US after 9-11. Democrats will scream that Republicans are questioning their patriotism, as they always do, but they are vulnerable, as the reaction to the Air Force One flyby showed.


Now, Democrats have dismantled most of the safeguards and basically is hoping on the good will of other nations to keep us safe. I’d take the GOP approach any day, and I think most Americans will as well.

Nancy Pelosi won’t be vulnerable on this issue, but dozens of Democrats in Republican districts will have to make a choice. Do you stand by the lying Pelosi, who will lie about her support for torture to gain political points, or do you stand up and defend America and those who did their best after 9-11?


At least somebody’s got a clue.

163 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #157 unreconstructed rebel

From what I see, liver damage.

And here I thought alcohol was for that, silly me.

164 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:13:47am

re: #154 Honorary Yooper

Well, he’s got to take a plane there, so I hope he’s ready for the swine flu.

Yes, but it will be Air Force 2, which will fly low over Sarajevo with F-16 escort, for a photo-op.

165 Ben Hur  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:14:00am

The Superior Moral Position on Torture

If the CIA torture memos tell us anything, it’s that Americans still have a long way to go towards civility. When disenfranchised youths flew planes into buildings, it should have been a time of quiet introspection. Instead, Americans gave into baser emotions and demanded vengeance against our “attackers.” Since we had the barbaric Bush administration in charge, they gave into those demands and soon loosed the sadistic Cheney, who took a break from blasting his friends in the face with a shotgun to turn his violence on foreign minorities. Pretty soon our intelligence agencies had grabbed some random Arab terrorist masterminds off the street and started inconveniencing them, making them uncomfortable, and — dare I say it — torturing them.

And now we are no better than they are. Less better even.

There are people out there that actually think the above.

166 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #160 Mad Al-Jaffee

Do you ever read Peter Bagge? He’s not a conservative, but he is pretty Libertarian. I love his work.

No, what’s he written?

167 VioletTiger  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:14:24am

re: #24 Mad Al-Jaffee

I just read a comment on DU by someone who wants to throw Krauthammer down a set of stairs in his wheelchair for writing that piece. Such compassionate liberals there.

I am so thankful that Charles does not allow that kind of comment here.

168 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:14:24am

re: #156 Gang of One

It’s a fat-burner dietary supplement for weight liftrs/bodybuilders to get more lean. A lot of cafeine and other chemicals that “speed” up metabolism or inhibit the secretion of cortisol.

I think I will stay with my gallons of coffee daily routine.

169 capitalist piglet  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:14:54am

re: #137 VioletTiger

Just heard on the radio. Joe has been sent to Bosnia.

He’s going to come back telling some amazing stories, I’ll bet. I wonder if any of them will be true.

170 Cygnus  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:15:04am

re: #94 subsailor68

C’mon guys. You just don’t understand where the Kos kiddies are coming from. Well, let me tell you, after subscribing to Kosmopolitan, I have a whole new appreciation for these folks. Just a few of the articles in the newest issue:

Birkenstocks - Okay after Labor Day?
Armpit Hair Makeovers for Guys - AND Gals!
Renovating Mom’s Basement - A Guide to Creating that Sure-Fire Bachelor Pad
Sex! What it Is, and Why You May Not be Getting Any.
The Centerfold - A Kos Kid’s Bestest Friend Ever!

(I’d skip the “10 Most Beautiful Kos Kids” photo-spread however.)

How to Start Your Own Church of The One
Upper Body Exercises to Look Good on “Breasts, Not Bombs” Day

171 MrSilverDragon  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:15:28am

re: #165 Ben Hur

The Superior Moral Position on Torture

There are people out there that actually think the above.

They’re disillusioned because they haven’t gotten their rainbow farting unicorns yet.

172 calcajun  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:15:59am

Dr. K does not pull any punches in this one. Yes, Ms. Pelosi’s statements are contemptible.

173 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:16:04am

re: #24 Mad Al-Jaffee

I just read a comment on DU by someone who wants to throw Krauthammer down a set of stairs in his wheelchair for writing that piece. Such compassionate liberals there.

Such tolerance exhibited by the supposedly tolerant left.

174 VioletTiger  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:16:17am

re: #141 gmsc

OT: There are 1,000 fewer voices in Las Vegas today.
:(

Danny Gans just died at the age of 52.
I just saw him in March. He was a good, family guy. Such a shame.

175 Kragar  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:16:27am

Here is the John Stewart clip

Its nice to know John would be able to hold his head high and respect America’s ideals at the expense of countless American dead.

/

176 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:17:00am

re: #167 VioletTiger

I am so thankful that Charles does not allow that kind of comment here.

As am I. Those DU commentors would have been banned long ago and for good reason.

177 unreconstructed rebel  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:17:28am

Break’s over. Back to work.

178 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:17:37am

re: #166 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

No, what’s he written?

His best known work is Hate, which centered around Buddy Bradley, a 20 something slacker from Jersey who moves to Seattle, then back to Jersey. Very funny stuff.

His most recent book, Apocalypse Nerd, is about the Pacific Northwest getting nuked and the effect on society.

He occasionally does a cartoon for reason magazine. You can read some of the here: [Link: www.reason.com…]

179 JarHeadLifer  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:18:10am

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They wont. Thats why support for Obama is so high

They won’t or they can’t? The left has worked tireless for 40 years to destroy the public school system. They’re now enjoying the fruits of their labor.

180 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:18:19am

re: #116 lawhawk


There are reasons why the nation hasn’t suffered another terror attack akin to 9/11 since the attacks, and it has to do with getting the intel from KSM and the other terrorists at Gitmo.

The Obama administration is doing a 180 vis-a-vis foreign policy than the Bush administration.

With Obama’s world-wide apology tour, the polite listening of diatribes against our country, closing Gitmo, declaring no torture ever, and zero response to NK provocations, and proclaiming that America is just another country no better than any other, he is gambling that terrorists and others won’t see America as a threat; therefore, there is no need to attack America or her interests.

It may or may not work. History suggests that it is precisely this posture that invites future attacks against a perceive weakened power. But Obama is gambling anyway. Trouble is, he is gambling with American lives.

181 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:18:28am

re: #167 VioletTiger

I am so thankful that Charles does not allow that kind of comment here.

Charles always shows remarkable forbearance towards those who take a contrary view. Never see that at the leftoid echo chambers.

182 hous bin pharteen  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:18:31am

Can I sue the gobermint for getting tortured in Army training with the satanistic president, Ronald Reagan? I could have been hanging out in a bar. but noooooooo! But at least I did not have caterpillars bite me. Horrors!

183 subsailor68  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:19:17am

re: #165 Ben Hur

When disenfranchised youths flew planes into buildings, it should have been a time of quiet introspection.

The writer of that article needs to do a little fact-checking:

Ages of the Hijackers:

American-Flight ll

Moltamed Atta / 33 years of age
Waleed Al Shehri / 25 years of age
Wail Al Shehri / 28 years of age
Abdulrahman Al Omari / 38 years of age
Satam A1 Suqami / 25 years of age

United Airlines Flight 75
(a Boeing 767-200)

Marwan Al Shehri / 23 years of age
Fayez Ahmed / No age given
Agohald Al Shehri / 28 years of age
Ahmed Ali Al Ghamdi / 21 years of age
Hamzah Salen Al Ghamdi / 20 years of age

United Airlines Flight 93
(a Boeing 757-200)

Ahmed Al Haznowi / 20 years of age
Ziad Jarrah / 26 years of age
Ahmed Al Nami / 23 years of age
Saeed Al Ghamdi / No age given

American Airlines Flight 77
(a Boeing 757-200)

Nawaq Al Hazmi / 25 years of age
Hani Hanjook / 29 years of age
Khalid Al Midhor / No age given
Salem Al Hazmi / No age given
Majed Moqued / No age given

Disenfranchise youth my ass.

184 Cygnus  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:19:25am

re: #123 lawhawk

Had problems in math class?

I took Statistics in college from a teacher who taught out of his own textbook. Now, that was torture.

185 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:19:44am

re: #51 BignJames

He did. I saw it. Stewart said we should have dropped it at sea as a warning. Hell, we dropped it on their heads and they still didn’t surrender.

Warning shots end when war is declared. That’s kind of why we work so hard to stay out of them.

Not really sure what to think of the ‘just a little bit of war’ mentality that has reigned since then, but I strongly support the idea that we should maintain a vast superiority over any challengers.

186 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:19:49am

re: #173 Honorary Yooper

Such tolerance exhibited by the supposedly tolerant left.

Tolerance is only to be expressed towards leftoids. Anyone else is an enemy of the state and is to be exterminated without remorse.

187 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:20:49am

Here’s another DU comment on Krauthammer:

“Krauthammer is as hideous a monster as Goebbels.”

188 vxbush  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:21:05am

re: #184 Cygnus

I took Statistics in college from a teacher who taught out of his own textbook. Now, that was torture.

I took graduate-level statistics with the textbook that the professor was writing. Now THAT was torture, because the textbook was always changing.

/One-upmanship

189 JustABill  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:21:08am

re: #25 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No. Nancy will do all that to show what happens to those who is in charge and what happens to people who dont follow the right leftpolitics.

ftfy

190 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:22:24am

re: #187 Mad Al-Jaffee

Would you please refrain from reposting the trash here, please? We don’t want or need to stink the place up, thank you very much.

191 subsailor68  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:22:46am

re: #188 vxbush

I took graduate-level statistics with the textbook that the professor was writing. Now THAT was torture, because the textbook was always changing.

/One-upmanship

I almost took a history class where the title of the professor’s book was “Hangups From Way Back.”

When he called to ask why I’d dropped the class…I hung up.

192 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:23:16am

re: #190 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sorry about that, I’ll stop. Sometimes it’s imortant to see how the other side thinks.

193 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:23:32am

re: #187 Mad Al-Jaffee

Anyone could have gone with a Hitler comparison, but this guy went for Goebbels. He must be really smart.
/

194 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:24:21am

re: #192 Mad Al-Jaffee

Sorry about that, I’ll stop. Sometimes it’s imortant to see how the other side thinks.

True, but that definitely is NOT thinking. That’s drooling, ranting and raving.

195 dhg4  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:24:34am

re: #3 Danny

Totally agree with The Hammer except for one thing. If your in the “ticking time bomb” scenario, it’s not torture. It’s self-defense.

From Stephen Flatow in 1997:

Israeli authorities had arrested Mr. Issa on suspicion of terrorist activity and questioned him the same way they would question anyone else: posing questions and waiting for answers. Mr. Issa revealed nothing unusual to his interviewers. It was only after the bus bombing that Karmi Gilon, then chief of Israel’s secret service, the Shin Bet, authorized the use of ”moderate physical force.”

The next morning, Mr. Issa, who had not been told of the bombing of Bus 26 the day before, told the Israelis about his plan for that attack. He also provided information that led to the arrests of 37 Hamas militants who had been planning additional bombings.

Mr. Gilon told reporters that the blood of the next victims of terrorism would have been on his hands if physical pressure had not been used in the interrogation of Mr. Issa. And Yitzhak Rabin, then Prime Minister of Israel, said that had the Shin Bet applied such pressure earlier, the attack on Bus 26 might have been prevented.

I know there are those who claim that the “ticking time bomb” is phony and that “coercive techniques” aren’t reliable. But they do work and, in the right circumstances could prevent death and destruction. This isn’t a matter of having clean hands but of saving lives. It’s odd to claim that your country is “diminished” by choosing to save innocents.

196 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:24:35am

re: #191 subsailor68

I almost took a history class where the title of the professor’s book was “Hangups From Way Back.”

When he called to ask why I’d dropped the class…I hung up.

[Link: www.instantrimshot.com…]

197 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:24:38am

re: #192 Mad Al-Jaffee

Sorry about that, I’ll stop. Sometimes it’s imortant to see how the other side thinks.

I can go look and see for myself. I come here to get AWAY from the filth I am forced daily to endure living in the Socialist Pacific Northwest.

198 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:25:15am

re: #188 vxbush

I took graduate-level statistics with the textbook that the professor was writing. Now THAT was torture, because the textbook was always changing.

/One-upmanship

Undergrad intro course in thermodynamics, as developed from statistical mechanics, with the book both professors were writing.

199 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:25:26am

re: #188 vxbush

I took graduate-level statistics with the textbook that the professor was writing. Now THAT was torture, because the textbook was always changing.

/One-upmanship

I took Mechanics of Materials with a professor who not only wrote his own textbook but also was revising it as he went along. We had to use statistics, calucus, and algebra to understand his text. Now that was torture and should’ve been banned by the Geneva Conventions.

/One-more-upsmanship

200 Guanxi88  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:25:42am

re: #191 subsailor68

I almost took a history class where the title of the professor’s book was “Hangups From Way Back.”

When he called to ask why I’d dropped the class…I hung up.

When the phone don’t ring, you’ll know it’s me.

201 captdiggs  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:25:54am

I would like to see one of the moonbats say that: “I would sacrifice my own child, whose life depends on the information from a captured jihadist, die, before we so much as harm a hair on the poor misunderstood jihadist’s head”.

It’s all very well for these people to spout off when the potential deaths are just something abstract.

202 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:26:00am

re: #194 Gang of One

True, but that definitely is NOT thinking. That’s drooling, ranting and raving.

And I quite frankly don’t need any more of the crap I have to put up with simply because I live in the Seattle area.

203 shiek al beif salami  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:26:17am

re: #5 LGoPs

A conscientious objector in WWII, Desmond Doss, saved the lives of more than seventy men during a battle in Okinawa.

My point? Pelosi is a coward and a whore. Nothing conscientious about her.

204 tfc3rid  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:26:21am

The UAE needs nuke power to coincide with the completion of the Burj Dubai later this year. They need a freakin plant to operate that place…

205 jcm  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:27:05am

re: #197 FurryOldGuyJeans

I can go look and see for myself. I come here to get AWAY from the filth I am forced daily to endure living in the Socialist Pacific Northwest.

Come on, you’ll have to admit kicking a $9 million deficit down the road 2 years was a brilliant move!

///////////////
I threw up a little in my mouth just typing that.

206 Guanxi88  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:27:35am

re: #198 Kosh’s Shadow

Undergrad intro course in thermodynamics, as developed from statistical mechanics, with the book both professors were writing.

Had a year-long seminar (met for three hours a week, for 15 weeks each term) on Plato’s Republic. At the end of the course, we’d finished our analysis of the first sentence, “Yesterday, I went down to the Piraeus,” and we ready to begin work on our final papers.

There really is that much there, but damn, that was some hard work.

207 ConservatismNow!  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:27:38am

re: #199 Honorary Yooper

I took Mechanics of Materials with a professor who not only wrote his own textbook but also was revising it as he went along. We had to use statistics, calucus, and algebra to understand his text. Now that was torture and should’ve been banned by the Geneva Conventions.

/One-more-upsmanship

I took a humanities class. I win

208 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #198 Kosh’s Shadow

Undergrad intro course in thermodynamics, as developed from statistical mechanics, with the book both professors were writing.

Don’t you just love it when the text is being both taught and written at the same time. :-P

209 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:27:46am

re: #203 shiek al beif salami

A conscientious objector in WWII, Desmond Doss, saved the lives of more than seventy men during a battle in Okinawa.

My point? Pelosi is a coward and a whore. Nothing conscientious about her.

But she “cares”, so is perfectly willing to sacrifice without remorse countless of her fellow citizens.

210 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:27:52am

re: #201 captdiggs

I would like to see one of the moonbats say that: “I would sacrifice my own child, whose life depends on the information from a captured jihadist, die, before we so much as harm a hair on the poor misunderstood jihadist’s head”.

It’s all very well for these people to spout off when the potential deaths are just something abstract.


Funny, though, that the majority of these lefty do-gooders live in the places terrorists are most likely to target. It’s their own lives at stake.

211 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:28:45am

re: #201 captdiggs

I would like to see one of the moonbats say that: “I would sacrifice my own child, whose life depends on the information from a captured jihadist, die, before we so much as harm a hair on the poor misunderstood jihadist’s head”.

It’s all very well for these people to spout off when the potential deaths are just something abstract.

There probably are some moonbats who would say that, if they had children, but then, they’d blame the Republicans for punishing them with the children in the first place by preventing them from having an abortion.

212 Cygnus  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:29:44am

re: #187 Mad Al-Jaffee

Here’s another DU comment on Krauthammer:

“Krauthammer is as hideous a monster as Goebbels.”

That is just about the dumbest thing I’ve read this week.

213 ConservatismNow!  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:30:23am

re: #203 shiek al beif salami

A conscientious objector in WWII, Desmond Doss, saved the lives of more than seventy men during a battle in Okinawa.

My point? Pelosi is a coward and a whore. Nothing conscientious about her.

Sergeant York was a conscientious objector.

214 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:30:33am

re: #207 ConservatismNow!

I took a humanities class. I win

I was 5’10 and ungraceful by the time I was 15 and had to endure gymnastics classes every year in PE.

215 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:30:53am

re: #212 Cygnus

That is just about the dumbest thing I’ve read this week.

Read andy DU forum and you’ll find much worse. Some of them are comparing our treatment of terrorists to the Holocaust.

216 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:30:56am

re: #210 Gang of One

Funny, though, that the majority of these lefty do-gooders live in the places terrorists are most likely to target. It’s their own lives at stake.

Yet they have flyover country to blame for any attack since the people there oppose such enlightened thinking the superior left has according to them.

217 Cygnus  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:31:07am

re: #203 shiek al beif salami

A conscientious objector in WWII, Desmond Doss, saved the lives of more than seventy men during a battle in Okinawa.

My point? Pelosi is a coward and a whore. Nothing conscientious about her.

You can call her a coward, but ‘whore’ is a bit over the top. Just sayin’.

218 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:31:31am

re: #165 Ben Hur

The Superior Moral Position on Torture

There are people out there that actually think the above.

Larry Derfner comes to mind.

219 lawhawk  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:03am

re: #199 Honorary Yooper

I took Mechanics of Materials with a professor who not only wrote his own textbook but also was revising it as he went along. We had to use statistics, calucus, and algebra to understand his text. Now that was torture and should’ve been banned by the Geneva Conventions.

/One-more-upsmanship

Oh hell.. I had a graduate level political theory course where the professor required reading of his own book (happens all the time, but it’s theory - so he thought he could say whatever he wanted and not be wrong)…. Well, actually, political theories can be proven wrong because some theories never can adapt to power politics and bureaucratic inertia. He hated when I brought that particular point up since his theories ignored all that.

220 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:13am

re: #217 Cygnus

You can call her a coward, but ‘whore’ is a bit over the top. Just sayin’.

She is pimping herself out for political gain, so I think it fits to a T.

221 Guanxi88  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:25am

re: #212 Cygnus

That is just about the dumbest thing I’ve read this week.

Then you haven’t been reading much, or have been very careful in your selection of reading material.

222 J.D.  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:28am


The secrets of the London Cage

· Beatings, sleep deprivation and starvation used on SS and Gestapo men
· POW camp in Kensington kept secret and hidden from Red Cross

* Ian Cobain
* The Guardian, Saturday 12 November 2005

Kensington Palace Gardens is one of the most exclusive, and expensive, addresses in the world: its stately row of 160-year-old mansions, built on land owned by the crown, is home to ambassadors, billionaires and princes. One property bought by the Indian steel magnate Lakshmi Mittal for a reputed £57m is said to be the most expensive house in London. Down the road, a pair of Manhattan tax lawyers are renovating No 6, while next door, No 7, is the London home of the Sultan of Brunei. Over the years No 8 has housed its fair share of dowagers and dukes.

Between July 1940 and September 1948, however, these three magnificent houses were home to one of the country’s most secret military establishments: the London office of the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre, known colloquially as the London Cage.

The London Cage was run by MI19, the section of the War Office responsible for gleaning information from enemy prisoners of war, and few outside this organisation knew exactly what went on beyond the single barbed-wire fence that separated the three houses from the busy streets and grand parks of west London. …


fwiw

223 dhg4  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:29am

re: #116 lawhawk

All statements made by the Obama Administration come with an expiration date. Don’t think for a moment that the Administration wont turn around and start doing the harsh interrogation thing the moment there’s another attack on the US so as to determine whether there’s additional follow-on attacks and to see who else was involved. The American people would demand it - and they’d be demanding heads on spikes - including those in Congress and the Administration who went along with this pablum of claiming that harsh interrogation tactics were “torture” and that we should never use them under any circumstances.

There are reasons why the nation hasn’t suffered another terror attack akin to 9/11 since the attacks, and it has to do with getting the intel from KSM and the other terrorists at Gitmo.

Keep in mind that despite all the claims that they were waterboarded hundreds of times - the sum total of usage was 5 separate sessions. Total.

In eight years.

For a government that is claimed to be so evil and hostile to human rights, five sessions, on three terrorists, over eight years - and most were confined to the first months following their capture, is an extraordinary figure.

This wasn’t something done lightly or without consideration. It was done with the intent to gather as much intel as possible in as short a time period as possible to prevent further attacks. There isn’t anyone in this or any administration who can claim that there was a better way to obtain that information in a timely fashion. Period.

My father pointed out Deroy Murdock.

Today, Library Tower looms 73 stories above Los Angeles. But the Pacific Coast’s highest skyscraper might have become a smoldering pile of steel beams had CIA interrogators not waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) 183 times in March 2003, as recently released memoranda reveal. Americans should be proud that our public servants had the patience and persistence to pressure al-Qaeda’s self-described military chief until he cracked, ratted on his homicidal conspirators, and thus prevented a bloody attack that could have murdered thousands of innocents and transformed much of downtown L.A. into Ground Zero West.

The 9/11 Commission was forced onto the Bush administration to deflect blame away for the Clinton administration that allowed Al Qaeda to metastisize into a malignant force under its watch. Now the issue of torture is designed to deny credit to the Bush administration for keeping us safe in the eight subsequent years.

224 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:32am

re: #208 Honorary Yooper

Don’t you just love it when the text is being both taught and written at the same time. :-P

At least there was a text.

When I was in grad school, and took Relativistic Quantum Mechanics, there was no text, just “suggested books” none of which matched the order in which the material was covered in class. The professor, a Nobel Prize winner, was inaccessible, and his postdoc couldn’t explain anything, or just didn’t want to.
Plus it took weeks to order the books, which weren’t stocked at the bookstore because they weren’t required.

225 ConservatismNow!  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #214 Russkilitlover

I was 5’10 and ungraceful by the time I was 15 and had to endure gymnastics classes every year in PE.

Yeah, I was kind of the same way in PE. What I lacked in athletic ability, I made up for in sheer aggression. Thus, I was a tenacious defender in soccer.

226 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:32:59am

re: #201 captdiggs

I would like to see one of the moonbats say that: “I would sacrifice my own child, whose life depends on the information from a captured jihadist, die, before we so much as harm a hair on the poor misunderstood jihadist’s head”.

It’s all very well for these people to spout off when the potential deaths are just something abstract.

Remember all the “Peace at any cost” signs held at protests all over the nation. I can’t decide which is more disturbing that: A. They don’t realize the true cost of that statement or B. They do.

227 Cygnus  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:33:03am

re: #220 FurryOldGuyJeans

She is pimping herself out for political gain, so I think it fits to a T.

‘Political whore’ then.

228 Desert Dog  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:33:11am

re: #214 Russkilitlover

I was 5’10 and ungraceful by the time I was 15 and had to endure gymnastics classes every year in PE.

I took sociology with a man-hating lesbian (it was required). That was at first, very difficult to deal with. But, it became enjoyable after I discovered I could get her to turn beet red with my “questions”. She dreaded me more than I dreaded her by the end!

229 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #214 Russkilitlover

I was 5’10 and ungraceful by the time I was 15 and had to endure gymnastics classes every year in PE.

You win. PE is torture anyway, the way the gym teachers are.

230 Gang of One  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:33:36am

re: #216 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet they have flyover country to blame for any attack since the people there oppose such enlightened thinking the superior left has according to them.

And in the recesses of their dark, malignantly narcissistic hearts, they probably hope it’s some flyover ville that gets hurt, for the reason you mention.

231 Desert Dog  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:33:52am

re: #225 ConservatismNow!

Yeah, I was kind of the same way in PE. What I lacked in athletic ability, I made up for in sheer aggression. Thus, I was a tenacious defender in soccer.

A few tactical kicks in the shin go a long way, don’t they?

232 Sharmuta  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:34:41am
But Pelosi did nothing. No protest. No move to cut off funding. No letter to the president or the CIA chief or anyone else saying “Don’t do it.”

On the contrary, notes Porter Goss, then chairman of the House intelligence committee: The members briefed on these techniques did not just refrain from objecting, “on a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.”

More support, mind you. Which makes the current spectacle of self-righteous condemnation not just cowardly but hollow. It is one thing to have disagreed at the time and said so. It is utterly contemptible, however, to have been silent then and to rise now “on a bright, sunny, safe day in April 2009” (the words are Blair’s) to excoriate those who kept us safe these harrowing last eight years.

Why would she have complained? Even nancy pelosi must know that the population centers in her home state are considered valuable targets by the islamists.

This is not merely contemptible, but completely disingenuous.

233 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:35:19am

re: #230 Gang of One

And in the recesses of their dark, malignantly narcissistic hearts, they probably hope it’s some flyover ville that gets hurt, for the reason you mention.

Yet that is so unlikely to happen. The Jihadis hate Leftism with a holy passion, and the conclaves of Leftism are big cities that keep the Dems in power.

234 subsailor68  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:35:42am

The only other odd class I took was called “The History of Art.” When I showed up for the first day, the professor stuck out his hand and said, “Hi, I’m Art.”

235 ConservatismNow!  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:35:55am

re: #231 Desert Dog

A few tactical kicks in the shin go a long way, don’t they?

Nah. That comes with the game. I’m talking hockey/rugby level body checks. When I played, I was weighing in at a good 190-200. I wasn’t very fast, but I could hit hard. You can’t control the ball when I knocked you nearly off your feet.

236 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:36:21am

re: #229 Kosh’s Shadow

You win. PE is torture anyway, the way the gym teachers are.

What’s worse is that many of them teach Driver’s Ed.

237 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:36:36am

re: #227 Cygnus

‘Political whore’ then.

I have a lot of respect for “sex workers” because they do it for money in the best capitalist tradition. Whores like Pelosi do it for power and politics.

238 Irenike  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:36:58am

An Amnesty International representative with a clipboard came to my door yesterday, wanting me to sign a petition.

We had an amicable conversation, despite our differences. One unexpected thing she said is that her own personal belief is that some forms of torture might be permissible under the ticking time-bomb scenario. I pointed out that waterboarding has saved innocent lives, and she said “Oh, but AI doesn’t endorse that.” I also pointed out that I strongly disagree with AI on their anti-death penalty stance.

I also told her I think AI should focus more energy on the oppression of women in Islamic countries. She assured me they are, although the brochure she showed me does not stress this. But she spent a lot of time trying to convince me to join AI to work on the Islamic female oppression issue, even if I don’t agree with other issues.

So now I’m curious, fellow Lizards. What are your thoughts about Amnesty International? Do they do good, bad, or both?

239 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:37:00am

re: #222 J.D.


The secrets of the London Cage

· Beatings, sleep deprivation and starvation used on SS and Gestapo men
· POW camp in Kensington kept secret and hidden from Red Cross

* Ian Cobain
* The Guardian, Saturday 12 November 2005


fwiw

I doubt the SS and Gestapo “men” got anything near what they deserved.
I think I’ll spare everyone from a description, except to say it wouldn’t be meted out in mansions, but in rude buildings more like those found in concentration camps.

240 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:38:00am

re: #237 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have a lot of respect for “sex workers” because they do it for money in the best capitalist tradition. Whores like Pelosi do it for power and politics.

Well, I would guess that at least with a “sex worker”, you might get some satisfaction out of the exchange. Not so with a politician. There, you just get screwed while they take your wallet.

241 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:40:19am

re: #240 Honorary Yooper

Well, I would guess that at least with a “sex worker”, you might get some satisfaction out of the exchange. Not so with a politician. There, you just get screwed while they take your wallet.

Sex with love gets a “Wow”; with a “sex worker”, it’s just a “sham wow”.

242 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:40:54am

re: #238 Irenike

I have mixed feelings about them. I don’t like their anti-death penalty stance, and their bias against Israel and the US. They don’t consider the war on terror a real war. (they always put it in quotes)

But they have written many reports of how women are treat in Islamic countries and they do a pretty thorough job of investigating the issues.

I catalog their reports as part of my job, so I’ve read quite a few.

243 Desert Dog  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:41:01am

re: #235 ConservatismNow!

Nah. That comes with the game. I’m talking hockey/rugby level body checks. When I played, I was weighing in at a good 190-200. I wasn’t very fast, but I could hit hard. You can’t control the ball when I knocked you nearly off your feet.

I played fullback my entire soccer life age 6 to 35, on the wing and at stopper and sweeper. I am not fast nor I am very tall. But, they called me the “Punisher” as very few forwards ever scored on me. I did it with anticipation, offside traps, a killer slide tackle, a very good “shirt grab” and a ferocity that surprised most people as I am usually quite mellow. It’s a rough sport. I have concussions, a broken nose, some chipped teeth and a shattered cartilage to verify that. (You should see the other guys though)

244 ConservatismNow!  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:44:01am

re: #243 Desert Dog

We used to play about every other day when I was in the Marines. Nobody came away from our games without a limp.

245 JustABill  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:45:43am

re: #224 Kosh’s Shadow

At least there was a text.

When I was in grad school, and took Relativistic Quantum Mechanics, there was no text, just “suggested books” none of which matched the order in which the material was covered in class. The professor, a Nobel Prize winner, was inaccessible, and his postdoc couldn’t explain anything, or just didn’t want to.
Plus it took weeks to order the books, which weren’t stocked at the bookstore because they weren’t required.

Sounds more like a course in chaos theory.

246 yma o hyd  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:47:11am

re: #243 Desert Dog

I played fullback my entire soccer life age 6 to 35, on the wing and at stopper and sweeper. I am not fast nor I am very tall. But, they called me the “Punisher” as very few forwards ever scored on me. I did it with anticipation, offside traps, a killer slide tackle, a very good “shirt grab” and a ferocity that surprised most people as I am usually quite mellow. It’s a rough sport. I have concussions, a broken nose, some chipped teeth and a shattered cartilage to verify that. (You should see the other guys though)

You could have been an excellent centre, in rugby … what a missed opportunity!

;-)

247 capitalist piglet  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:52:23am

re: #192 Mad Al-Jaffee

Sorry about that, I’ll stop. Sometimes it’s imortant to see how the other side thinks.

Don’t feel bad. I slum over there now and then myself, especially when their side takes a big hit.

In one such circumstance, I saw a DUer say they had a candle lit, and they were staring at a portrait of JFK. I don’t think I stopped laughing for a week.

248 Irenike  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:53:29am

re: #242 Mad Al-Jaffee

I have mixed feelings about them. I don’t like their anti-death penalty stance, and their bias against Israel and the US. They don’t consider the war on terror a real war. (they always put it in quotes)

But they have written many reports of how women are treat in Islamic countries and they do a pretty thorough job of investigating the issues.

I catalog their reports as part of my job, so I’ve read quite a few.

Thank you for your reply. I’m curious. What is your job?

249 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:53:55am

re: #124 jcm

Which is a good thing, because at that point we ran of the things and it would be a few months before we had any more.

IIRC from what I’ve read, the 3rd bomb was already at Tinian, minus its plutonium core, which could have been flown to the Western Pacific using a C-54. Hanford was turning out enough Pu for a bomb a week.

250 aggieann  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:58:08am

re: #5 LGoPs

I love CK’s clarity. he cuts through all the BS.

From Jay Nordlinger in National Review’s The Corner Online earlier today:

Back in the early 1990s, I said this about Charles Krauthammer as columnist: “The thing is, you can hold up a Krauthammer column and say, ‘Here it is. This is it. This is what I believe, in a nutshell. This is the case I would make, had I the ability.’” A Krauthammer column gave you something to wave. A document to nail to a door, so to speak. A friend or acquaintance would say to you, “What do you believe about this issue, and why?” And you could hand him a Krauthammer column, saying, “Here.”

In fact, that is the highest value of any columnist, don’t you think? He crystallizes your own thought. (Then again, he could make you reexamine.)

All of this came to mind when I read Krauthammer’s column published today, on torture: here. It makes you say, “Yep — that’s it.” At least it makes me say that. I also thought of George W. Bush. He said, on at least one occasion, “You never get credit for what didn’t happen” — e.g., further terror attacks on your country.

251 CommonCents  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:58:49am

re: #222 J.D.


The secrets of the London Cage

· Beatings, sleep deprivation and starvation used on SS and Gestapo men
· POW camp in Kensington kept secret and hidden from Red Cross

* Ian Cobain
* The Guardian, Saturday 12 November 2005


fwiw

That bit says it all. They didn’t play rough with all the prisoners, just the really important ones that potentially had vital information. Just as waterboarding wasn’t used on every tarik, dakka, or al-haq, only the AQ upper echelon.

Relative to the thread header, Krauthammer does such a fine job at expressing what I think. Much better than I usually.

252 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:59:19am

re: #248 Irenike

Thank you for your reply. I’m curious. What is your job?

I’m a library technician. I would be a librarian or archivist if I had stayed in grad school and gotten a masters degree, but I’ve been too stubborn/lazy/busy with music to do that.

I’m a contractor at a government library and a lot of our collection deals with human rights. I catalog AI and Human Rights Watch reports. Right now I’m downloading Reporters Without Borders’ 2009 country reports.

253 CommonCents  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:59:39am

re: #250 aggieann

Yeah! Like I said in #251

254 jcbunga  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:06:25pm

He certainly cuts to the chase : “To call some of the other “enhanced interrogation” techniques…torture is to empty the word of any meaning”

Three names in support of that concept—names I had never heard of until I saw a documentary last night—

Ensign Frank W. O’Flaherty, USS Enterprise
Radioman-Gunner Bruno P. Gaido, USS Enterprise
Ensign Wesley Osmus, USS Enterprise

All were Navy airman who participated in the destruction of the Japanese Fleet at the Battle of Midway. All were forced down after completing their bombing runs, and had the misfortune of being picked up by Japanese ships.

O’Flaherty and Gaido were beaten, interrogated and then had weights tied to their feet and were tossed overboard alive.

Osmus was beaten, interrogated and thrown over the side. When he grabbed the rail chain he was killed by a blow to the head with an ax.

I’ve read volumes on Midway and never heard this story until last night.

That is torture.

O’Flaherty, Gaido and Osmus….thank you for your service. We got ‘em.

[Link: www.users.bigpond.com…]

255 itellu3times  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:10:28pm

CK makes a good point about opposing torture being akin to being a conscientious objector, and of course I agree with him on the first case, the “ticking bomb”, but his second case is silly. High value this, high value that? No, sorry. If even one life is at risk, and some low-value scum turns out to be the key to it, then that’s high enough for me.

Remember, this is an enemy which makes it their basic policy to kill innocents and civilians, friends and foes, even themselves, at the drop of a hat. It is not a rare and dubious proposition to suspect them of the worst. Nor are they likely to be convinced by any argument, period. Fooled, perhaps. Maybe drugged? But not convinced, as such, not in general, and not often enough to depend upon.

256 DistantThunder  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:24:15pm

I’d like to remind the press and the left that Americans were genuinely tortured and slaughtered on 911. Some of them were executed. They cried and prayed in those burning buildings and airplanes. The were brutally tortured by fire until they were forced to jump out of 100 story buildings to their deaths.

Listen to the 911 phone calls. I think an entire movie should be made of the phone calls of real torture victims.

Melissa trapped on the 83rd floor.

Please listen to melissa. (Jesus. Dear . God.) This is real torture.

257 Irenike  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:25:26pm

re: #252 Mad Al-Jaffee

I’m a library technician. I would be a librarian or archivist if I had stayed in grad school and gotten a masters degree, but I’ve been too stubborn/lazy/busy with music to do that.

I’m sighing with wistful pleasure at the memory of all the pleasant hours I have spent in libraries. I love books. I love reading. Your job setting is one of the nicer ones out there.

What sort of music do you occupy yourself with? I’ve been taking piano lessons for about 5 years. I don’t play well, but I love the instrument.

258 flbob10  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:26:28pm

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)


present

259 gregmw  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:31:51pm

I have to say I disagree with most people here on this subject; I find torture deplorable in any context, and believe that waterboarding and the other techniques used are absolutely torture.

I think the problem with the two scenarios is a fatal flaw: accountability. If you have the “ticking bomb” scenario, and you torture to get the information, then you cannot simply be absolved by a wave of the hand. The torturer should, after the scenario is over with, give himself to the mercy of the court / jury of his peers to decide if his action were warranted.

There is no such call for accountability in the article and I think this is a true shame. Israel has long since declared this sort of torture illegal and they stand every day with the proverbial “ticking bomb” scenario. Ronald Reagan championed the Convention Against Torture which specifically states that there are no exceptional circumstances whatsoever where torture is acceptable.

Justice Aharon Barak of the Israeli Supreme court may have said it best, “Although a democracy must often fight with one hand tied behind its back, it nonetheless has the upper hand.”

260 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:32:08pm

re: #257 Irenike

Yeah, I have a decent job, but the pay isn’t great and the benefits are pretty lousy. I’ve been looking for a better one for over a year. But I do like working in DC (although I spend about $200/month on Metro).

I’ve been playing the harmonica for over 20 years, and I mainly play in blues bands.

261 nyc redneck  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:33:08pm

krauthammer is so level headed. so reasonable.
it is hard to argue w/ anything he says.
labeling what we do to get information as torture, really does alter the true meaning of the word. head chopping and acid baths are torture. people die from those “techniques.”
sleep deprivation, forced standing and pouring water on a rag on someone’s face to simulate drowning aren’t even torture lite.
the left is using “torture” allegations as a political football, and nancy pelosi is having second thoughts abt. these procedures now (which she was briefed on) and wondered at that time, if the techniques should go further, to achieve results. all of a sudden she takes a moral high ground attitude.
there is so much witch hunting hypocrisy abt. interrogation of jihadis.
and the enemy is laughing at the spectacle.

262 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:36:33pm
263 Mr. Sandman  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:44:45pm

Charles, is your position that waterboarding is not torture or that it is torture but that’s fine under these circumstances? You seem to say elsewhere that it is not really torture, even though you cite a piece here which admits that it is torture. Just want to be clear on what the consistent, non self-contradictory position of yours here is.

264 gregmw  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:54:55pm

re: #262 buzzsawmonkey

Respectfully, I disagree that the only options are torture or sheepish begging and pleading. There are many techniques that can be legally used. The article about Colonel Robin “Tin Eye” Stephens of Britain explains how he could coerce confessions without ever laying a finger on someone.

And even he faced a trial for his actions, because even that sort of treatment should require, in a free society, that you explain your actions and accept accountability. He did. And he was cleared of all charges.

265 bravesoat  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:58:58pm

Read the comments for this article- They include:

1. Typical Bush/Cheney evil war criminal.
2. Krauthammer is a zionist/neo-con.
3. Waterboarding makes us no different than Nazis

And all while these people believe they are smarter and more moral than any other humans in history.

266 The Optimist  Fri, May 1, 2009 12:59:28pm

Are these muslim tortures?
Given only non-halal food.
Denied right to know which direction is Mecca.
Made to wear orange clothes.
Solitary confinement and sensory deprivation.
Forced to sleep with a pig.
Taking photo image of a woman.

Are these not muslim tortures?
Decapitation with a knife.
Random suicide bomberings.
Slow death for homosexuals.
Beatings for not dressing muslim.
Burned testicles, boards with nails, sand in the mouth, salt in wounds, cattle prods, and being run over by an SUV while the police help restrain.

I wonder how torture is defined in Arabic?

267 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 1:03:49pm
268 gregmw  Fri, May 1, 2009 1:23:30pm

re: #267 buzzsawmonkey

Again, I respectfully disagree. I believe that everyone should be held accountable for their actions, whatever they are, and if someone is accused of wrongdoing, they should be adequately investigated and, if necessary, forced to explain or even defend their actions in a trial. They should of course be innocent until proven guilty, and be given the right to have their case heard by a jury of their peers.

You are correct that people like Tin Eye Stephens are a rare breed. However, that does not in and of itself justify torture. He proved without a shadow of a doubt that there are techniques you can use that do not involve any sort of physical confrontation that can be spectacularly effective.

Where we part ways is whether, lacking the ability to get the answers you need from non-physical confrontations, if you go the route of inflicting pain and suffering. I personally feel that there is no circumstance, no matter how dire, where such actions are justified. And while I may understand that others feel that those actions ARE justified in some circumstances, I strongly feel that those people who take such actions have a responsibility to themselves and to their society to accept accountability for said actions, and face whatever repercussions their actions entail.

269 mjwsatx  Fri, May 1, 2009 1:34:25pm

9 Questions the Left Needs to Answer About Torture

[Link: dennisprager.townhall.com…]

270 GCPSteve  Fri, May 1, 2009 1:51:26pm

Krauthammer is a genius. I love reading his articles.

271 meh130  Fri, May 1, 2009 1:58:40pm

The comments at the WaPo site are pretty amazing. They give great insight to what an Obama voter thinks. Like most on the American left, they are devoid of logic.

Regardless, Krauthammer does what the left doesn’t want to ever do: Consider the morality of torture. If you can save one person’s life by causing temporary pain to another person, by any ethical or moral standard, that is an ethical and moral thing to do (life > temporary pain). To say one should lose their life because of the comfort of another must be maintained, is to devalue life. The left recoils in horror not only from acknowledging torture can be moral, but they recoil in horror from the subject even being discussed, and they recoil in horror in the knowledge others are even considering it. As if not thinking about it will make it all go away.

272 Irenike  Fri, May 1, 2009 1:59:14pm

re: #268 gregmw

I personally feel that there is no circumstance, no matter how dire, where such actions are justified. And while I may understand that others feel that those actions ARE justified in some circumstances, I strongly feel that those people who take such actions have a responsibility to themselves and to their society to accept accountability for said actions, and face whatever repercussions their actions entail.

I just heard an interview the other day with a terrorism expert. He said that Sheik Khalid Mohammed, the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, was waterboarded 183 times before he started to talk. But, the information he gave after all those waterboarding sessions was invaluable. Terrorist attacks were averted, not only in the USA, but around the globe. Mohammend gave detailed information about how Al Qaeda works, how they recruit, where they get their money, what other attacks they had planned.

The “reprecussions” from waterboarding him was that thousands more innocent lives were saved. What “accountability” should those interrogators face? They deserve high praise for saving thousands of innocent lives. They can proudly look society in the eye (whoever “society” is) and say: “I helped keep you safe.”

273 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 2:07:22pm
274 BingoBunny  Fri, May 1, 2009 2:24:00pm

I’ve never been that excited that intensive questioning has occurred to the people who should have some intensive questioning done to/with them. It’s not like CIS where the guy talks for a reduced sentence.. of 15 years in prison instead of life. Truth is terrorists have no reason to talk about anything.. so not sure where B ho thinks the other ways to get info is.. unless he means release them with a micro phone planted in their chest and we listen in as they plan the next suicide mission.

/patent pending

275 gregmw  Fri, May 1, 2009 2:29:40pm

re: #272 Irenike

The “reprecussions” from waterboarding him was that thousands more innocent lives were saved. What “accountability” should those interrogators face? They deserve high praise for saving thousands of innocent lives. They can proudly look society in the eye (whoever “society” is) and say: “I helped keep you safe.”

Then they should do so in the light of day, explain themselves, give their evidence that their techniques worked, and that it was the only way such information could have been obtained. If all that is true, then they may ultimately be absolved of their conduct. But that is up to the people to decide after a thorough investigation has taken place. And by the people, I mean us, I mean American society.

re: #273 buzzsawmonkey

Why do you think such people should be “accountable?” For what should they be “accountable,” to whom, and on what basis?

It is a bedrock principle that we are all accountable for our actions. If someone is accused of doing something unlawful, at the very least an investigation should be made, with the presumption of innocence.

Once you answer that, perhaps you will explain what you consider to be effective interrogation which does not rise (or sink) to the level of torture, and which does not mandate “accountability.” Then, perhaps, you will explain what you consider the demarcation line between torture and non-torture to be.

I believe that all those who are prisoners of our society are entitled to the same guarantees under our laws and treaties, regardless of their affiliation with terrorist groups. I realize this is an unpopular position but it is one that I still firmly hold. Any form of forced interrogation that leads to psychological or physical harm, even if fleeting, is in itself a form of torture. Nothing beyond “name, rank, and serial number” is what we should be beholden to. I wouldn’t want anything more done to any American troops; we should hold ourselves to the same standards.

Saying this, I understand that the waters get murky, that mere psychological intimidation is generally accepted as not torture by treaties. This is distressing to me but it is nonetheless the law. However, the same laws explicitly describe physical harm as torture, and illegal.

We are a nation of laws, not of men, and no man is above the law. This is another bedrock principle. If these principles can be discarded, then they are worthless. I refuse to accept that. I refuse to accept that the principles my country stands on can be so callously thrown away. I am too proud of and too enamored with America to accept it.

276 Edouard  Fri, May 1, 2009 2:34:15pm

re: #268 gregmw

I strongly feel that those people who take such actions have a responsibility to themselves and to their society to accept accountability for said actions, and face whatever repercussions their actions entail.

Waterboarding to save lives is a no-brainer. Look, if you dare, at the bloody, hideous scenes following large-scale terror bombings, the horror of people blown to pieces, heads with only spines attached anymore, or burned alive.

I cannot understand how waterboarding a person can be deemed worse than such scenes, in which tens, hundreds, or even thousands of people might be spared such truly nasty and tormented deaths, if we succeed in gaining critical and time-sensitive information by using panic-inducing interrogation techniques that are specifically undertaken to stop such terrible mass-murder events.

Notice that Krauthammer does say that those who use such measures do and should “take the responsibility”, just as you are asking for. The real debate should be about how such responsibility is to be taken. For certainly responsibility should not be evaded. We must indeed stand and accept such responsibility and treat it with great seriousness — but we must also acknowledge that, in the balance, we likewise have the responsibility of protecting countless innocent American citizens from sickening, harrowing massacres carried out in secret, that might be prevented if we discover the secret in advance.

Army Rangers and Navy Seals are known to be and have been waterboarded during training. If it is truly as intolerable and unconscionable an act as your argument alleges, we would not be subjecting our most able military defenders to it.

277 fortunate son  Fri, May 1, 2009 2:37:41pm

Torture is defined in Funk & Wagnalls as: 1. Infliction of or subjection to extreme physical pain, 2. Great mental suffering; agony, etc.

What I’m confused about is when a person is waterboarded, do they think they are going to die drowning, or is it done as a form of harassment with the person knowing they will live through it? If it is the former, I guess water-boarding would constitute a form of torture because thinking you are going to drown is not a fun thing regardless of whether, or not, it leaves a mark. If it is the later, heck that is just free diving and I wouldn’t consider that torture.

If we did use waterboarding as torture, we have to consider the context. We didn’t just water-board jihadists just for the hell of it; we did it as part of a very targeted interrogation. The jihadists had a choice, if they talked nothing happened to them. If they chose not to talk, they got a disincentive. The jihadists were in control their own destiny. If they suffered, they brought it upon themselves.

If I knew that some scumbag had information that would save my son or daughter’s life, you can bet that person would be talking after ten minutes given what I would gladly be prepared to do to get him/her to talk. These jihadist scumbags were planning to indiscriminately kill many American’s sons and daughters. I wouldn’t hesitate for a moment from doing what is necessary to make them talk.

I wonder if gregmw has any kids? I also wonder what he would be prepared to do to save their lives in a similar scenario. Leftards talk a good game but, I’ve noticed they never practice what they preach.

278 gregmw  Fri, May 1, 2009 2:43:32pm

re: #276 Edouard

Notice that Krauthammer does say that those who use such measures do and should “take the responsibility”, just as you are asking for. The real debate should be about how such responsibility is to be taken. For certainly responsibility should not be evaded. We must indeed stand and accept such responsibility and treat it with great seriousness — but we must also acknowledge that, in the balance, we likewise have the responsibility of protecting countless innocent American citizens from sickening, harrowing massacres carried out in secret, that might be prevented if we discover the secret in advance.

I completely agree with you. However, I do not believe an adequate investigation has taken place, nor do I personally believe that, even facing horrible acts, torture becomes acceptable.

I respect the opinion of the majority here that disagrees with mine, but I still feel that it is important that I state my feelings on the matter.

279 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 3:07:00pm

re: #278 gregmw

I completely agree with you. However, I do not believe an adequate investigation has taken place, nor do I personally believe that, even facing horrible acts, torture becomes acceptable.

I respect the opinion of the majority here that disagrees with mine, but I still feel that it is important that I state my feelings on the matter.

It is good that you state your views and I will state mine. I accept that you have a different outlook on this from mine and and I hope that you are never in a position where you are responsible for making the hard decisions that the rest us base our safety on.

280 drool  Fri, May 1, 2009 3:16:28pm

Krauthammer brigns up the old ticking tme bomb thing again. 24 is not a documentary.


If he wants to use the TV show 24 as an example he should also mention that the hero in 24 (Jack) offered himself up to be tried rather than trying to parse his way out of it with legalese and phrases like “If the President authorizes it, it is legal” (paraphrasing).

281 [deleted]  Fri, May 1, 2009 3:29:20pm
282 Irenike  Fri, May 1, 2009 3:57:28pm

#275 gregmw

If interrogators are forced to defend their techniques in “the light of day,” as you put it, the terrorists will train themselves to withstand it. That is why Khalid Sheik Mohammed needed to be waterboarded 183 times. He figured out that waterboarding was the upper limit of our torture technique, and he trained himself to withstand it.

Now, I realize that none of this is going to convince you. You have argued, in so many words, that we have already sullied our hands by inflicting any kind of discomfort on these terrorists. Your code of ethics is a level of Platonic purity that cannot exist on this earth. You and I inhabit different universes.

You seem like a nice person. But I must say, with all due respect, you are lucky that there are less pure people out there who are willing to dirty their hands to keep you safe. I am one of those people. I would kill — that’s right, kill — any monster if it was the only way to save innocent lives. And I would torture a guilty person like Khalid Sheik Mohammed if it were the only way to get information to save innocent lives. I am not happy about this. I hope I don’t face that decision. I wish the world were different. But it is not, and there is no use pretending otherwise.

283 meh130  Fri, May 1, 2009 3:58:07pm

re: #275 gregmw

I believe that all those who are prisoners of our society are entitled to the same guarantees under our laws and treaties, regardless of their affiliation with terrorist groups. I realize this is an unpopular position but it is one that I still firmly hold. Any form of forced interrogation that leads to psychological or physical harm, even if fleeting, is in itself a form of torture. Nothing beyond “name, rank, and serial number” is what we should be beholden to. I wouldn’t want anything more done to any American troops; we should hold ourselves to the same standards.

Actually, is its Name, Rank, Service Number, and Date of Birth. But realize the Geneva Conventions specifically do not apply to unlawful combatants. There is a reason for this.

Ralph Peters wrote an excellent essay on this subject titled “Kill, Don’t Capture”. Some excerpts below:


Killing terrorists during a conflict isn’t barbaric or immoral - or even illegal. We’ve imposed rules upon ourselves that have no historical or judicial precedent. We haven’t been stymied by others, but by ourselves.

The oft-cited, seldom-read Geneva and Hague Conventions define legal combatants as those who visibly identify themselves by wearing uniforms or distinguishing insignia (the latter provision covers honorable partisans - but no badges or armbands, no protection). Those who wear civilian clothes to ambush soldiers or collect intelligence are assassins and spies - beyond the pale of law.

Traditionally, those who masquerade as civilians in order to kill legal combatants have been executed promptly, without trial.

It is not humane to spare fanatical murderers. It is not humane to play into our enemy’s hands. And it is not humane to endanger our troops out of political correctness.

The ultimate act of humanity in the War on Terror is to win. To do so, we must kill our enemies wherever we encounter them. He who commits an act of terror forfeits every right he once possessed.

The Geneva Conventions were designed to encourage countries to engage in lawful warfare, and specifically to discourage the practice of unlawful warfare. Stick to lawful warfare, and your captured soldiers get rights under the treaty. Unlawfully engage in warfare, and you get no protections.

If you grant protections to those who do not follow the laws of warfare, you encourage a higher level of bloodiness on the battlefield. If there is no benefit to wearing a uniform, carrying one weapon in the open, etc., and not greater risk in dressing in a burka and carrying one’s weapon underneath, why would one not take that advantage?

The Geneva Conventions have specific guidance on how to deal with unlawful combatants. Among those include trying them for their crimes. Realize just engaging in illegal warfare is a crime. Just the act of being an Al-Qaeda Arab fighter on the Afghanistan battlefield is a war crime, and eliminates any claim to POW status upon capture.

284 meh130  Fri, May 1, 2009 4:09:42pm

re: #280 drool

Krauthammer brigns up the old ticking tme bomb thing again. 24 is not a documentary.

If he wants to use the TV show 24 as an example he should also mention that the hero in 24 (Jack) offered himself up to be tried rather than trying to parse his way out of it with legalese and phrases like “If the President authorizes it, it is legal” (paraphrasing).

Krauthammer didn’t use the TV show 24 as an example in this article. He made no mention of 24 or Jack Bauer in this article. Nor did Krauthammer make any legalese commentary (unless “you do what you have to do” is legalese).

You do not appear to have read past the third sentence in the article.

285 Seattle Rep  Fri, May 1, 2009 4:19:28pm

“Some people, however, believe you never torture. Ever. They are akin to conscientious objectors who will never fight in any war under any circumstances, and for whom we correctly show respect by exempting them from war duty.”

Conscientious Objectors had the option to become a medic instead of carry a weapon. These ‘objectors’ to enhanced interrogation tactics today (in my opinion) should be among the first ones sent to dig for remains and clear the rubble at a ground zero site should we ever be attacked again.

286 LGoPs  Fri, May 1, 2009 4:42:36pm

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

Your reply is utterly unacceptable; it is not only wrong in itself, but its internal logic is flawed.

First, you continue to hew to the belief that people given the task of interrogation must be “held accountable” even if they do not engage in what you believe to be torture. This is not a standard of behavior, though you try to pass it off as such; it is a faux-moral stance so unworkable as to be without substance.

You compound this threshold error by saying that absolutely no “psychological or physical harm” is acceptable—that any infliction of such is “torture.” This overbroad standard effectively hands over society to the barbarians, for you exalt the well-being of the detainee over the safety of those he would seek to harm.

Third, you speak of “laws and treaties,” and of applying the principles therein to terrorists and terrorist groups. That, too, is unacceptable. The reason that treaties exist, and are adhered to, is so that certain behaviors can be agreed upon by mutual assent. The terrorist, having placed himself outside of such mutual agreements by his own stance and his own actions, is not entitled to such protections. Every law and every treaty draws a line: on one side are those protected, and on the other side are those who are not. Your wish to extend the protection of treaties to those who do not and will not honor them is not a protection of law, but a destruction of it.

In short, you make nonsense of the concept of law you claim to be advocating for; you would hold people “accountable” when they have behaved within the law (which means that they have nothing to account for); you would extend the protection of treaties to those who do not abide by them, thus voiding the purpose and validity of treaties.

Your position is cloaked in the language of law and morality, but it is a disgusting inversion of both concepts.

Bravo.

287 greensoccer  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:42:26pm

One democrat I know said the fact that Americans waterboarded a man 86 times means it was torture and therefore people involved should be indicted.
However listening to the Dennis Prager show see [Link: dennisprager.townhall.com…] blog
Tuesday, April 28, 2009 “Dennis Talks to Marc Thiessen” [Link: dennisprager.townhall.com…]
on torture, Thiessen wrote The West Coast Plot: An ‘Inconvenient Truth’ April 25, 2009 , see National Review Online (NRO)
[Link: corner.nationalreview.com…]
and see
The CIA’s Questioning Worked By Marc A. Thiessen
Tuesday, April 21, 2009 Washington Post
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

Marc Thiessen pointed out that the information that they got from
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) “helped to foil in 2006 an al-Qaeda plot to hijack airplanes leaving London’s Heathrow airport and blow them up over the Atlantic (a plot our intelligence community says was just weeks from execution). “On the radio show he stated that if it took 86 waterboardings to get the information from him, and he asked what makes one think that he would have voluntarily handed over the information if it took 86 waterboardings to get it? Apparently 85 was not enough.

288 Salamantis  Fri, May 1, 2009 6:48:44pm

re: #121 Ben Hur

Is that turning anyone else on?

Whip me , beat me, call me Edna:

[Link: blogs.redding.com…]

289 meh130  Fri, May 1, 2009 9:38:43pm

re: #287 greensoccer

the fact that Americans waterboarded a man 86 times

NOBODY WAS WATERBOARDED 86 TIMES!

This is NOT A FACT. This IS A LIE!

Both Zubaydah and KSM were each waterboarded five times according to the victims themselves and the International Red Cross!

See here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/28/despite-reports-khalid-sheikh-mohammed-waterboarded-times/

183 times in 30 days? Does that make any sense to anybody with more sense than a goat? Wake up people, and THINK!

This is a fantasy of Putz Sulzberger and the rest of those metrosexual, leg tingly, new castrati, girlie men of the New York Times with their school girl crushes on BMOC Obama.

The fact the IRC published this in February 2007, over two years ago, shows the MSM cannot be trusted with any facts at all.

If you believe Zubaydah was waterboarded 86 times, and KSM was waterboarded 183 times (i.e., you believe the New York Times), you believe both Zubaydah and KSM lied to the IRC when they told them they were waterboarded 5 times, and you have to believe the IRC is a bunch of liars.

290 greensoccer  Fri, May 1, 2009 11:19:15pm

re: #289 meh130

Thanks! That is why I like LGF’s. Someone throws that at me during a conversation and I was unprepared for it, and now someone comes out of the woodwork and answers it with cites and quotes and the terrorist himself quoted telling a very different story to the IRC no less.

291 [deleted]  Sat, May 2, 2009 3:55:41am
292 goodbrue57  Sat, May 2, 2009 7:52:44pm

While it would be gratifying to get info from these scum, and satisfying to see them suffer while getting it (as long as there’s some evidence that they are indeed the terrorists we think they are), what about the ex-FBI agent Bob Baer on Bill Mahr, who says torture doesn’t work and yields bad info? The tortured person will say whatever he thinks you want to hear.

293 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 12:13:54am

re: #292 goodbrue57

While it would be gratifying to get info from these scum, and satisfying to see them suffer while getting it (as long as there’s some evidence that they are indeed the terrorists we think they are), what about the ex-FBI agent Bob Baer on Bill Mahr, who says torture doesn’t work and yields bad info? The tortured person will say whatever he thinks you want to hear.

But the fact is that interrogation isn’t a one shot deal; any information that interrogators extract from terrorists will be checked out - and if it DOESN’T check out, they will be seeing each other again, and they all know it. This provides a strong incentive for terrorists not to lie to their interrogators.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 119 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 280 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1