On Hating Nazis

World • Views: 2,654

Mary Madigan has a very good post on the recent revelation that Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller were planning to attend a meeting of the fascist “Pro Köln” group in Germany: Nazis. I hate these guys.

The enemy of your enemy is not your friend. When Leftists tolerated and supported the extremists in their midst, they did great harm to their party. If the Right wing follows the same path, they can expect to be out of power for eight years, maybe longer.

We all need to pay attention to the voices of sanity in our midst. In the long run, the anti-fascist right and left will appreciate the work that Charles Johnson has done.

Thank you for that, Mary.

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125 comments
1 Shug  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:14:01am
In the long run, the anti-fascist right and left will appreciate the work that Charles Johnson has done

History is going to be very kind to you Charles.
You stood up when it mattered , took the right stance and took a lot of heat but you didn't flinch.

2 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:15:29am
That’s why I find it hard to support bloggers who claim to be against the Islamist-related brand of fascism, but who will write books with, feature and praise the work of somone like Serge Trifkovic, one of the leaders of the Bosnian Serbs during the years of ethnic cleansing. When bloggers say things like “the Nazis are not the problem”, this is also alarming.

Very nicely said.

3 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:16:13am

Ahhh ... another rock emerges.

4 BignJames  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:17:54am

Charles does a great service....I didn't know who these people and their associates were until Charles shined the light on them.

5 Wyatt Earp  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:18:09am

She's right - about the extremists, and Charles' unflinching common sense. Nice use of the Indiana Jones quote by Mary, too.

6 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:18:30am

Someone else turning over rocks to expose the critters underneath. They sure do seem to hate all the light.

7 Shug  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:20:09am
If you are no longer capable of distinguishing between specific jihadist and Islamist parties - Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-e-Islami - and ordinary Muslim citizens of your country, then you have crossed over the line. If you attend a conference organised by fascists, then you have also crossed over the line. You have become an anti-Muslim bigot

too long for a rotating title?

Nominated any way

8 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:20:51am

She has no comments at this time. My guess is she will now get flooded by the usual haters.

9 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:22:53am

re: #8 Sharmuta

She has no comments at this time. My guess is she will now get flooded by the usual haters.

I don't think she allows comments at Exit Zero. But it's cross-posted at Solomonia, and of course the haters came out in force there:

[Link: www.solomonia.com...]

10 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:23:27am

re: #8 Sharmuta

She has no comments at this time. My guess is she will now get flooded by the usual haters.

Looking over the other articles on her blog, she doesn't get many comments at all. I suspect that that will change.

11 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:24:43am

I'm wrong - she does have comments there.

Don't worry, though -- now that I've posted this, the ranting idiots will show up soon.

12 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:26:44am

People's love of fear (catastrophism) and hate (racism, xenophobia, religious intolerance, tribalism) seems to be a constant in which the terms left and right have little relevance in respect to outcomes.

I refuse to succumb to apocolyptogasmic fear and hate. If we do destroy ourselves, as opposed to succumbing to natural disasters like overwhelming climate change, disease, famine or meteor strikes, it will be our own damn fault. Viz. Freud, on the eve of WWII, in "Civilization and Its Discontents".

People need to remember the lessons of the Great War (1914-1918) and beyond. Read Barbara Tuchman's "The Proud Tower" and "The Guns of August". Millions of people slaughtered because of fear, hate, and binding alliances. Once the troops started mobilizing and the trains running, there was no circuit-breaker to interrupt the madness, which became a self-perpetuating cycle. Fighting till exhaustion. Then Versailles, and the windup to the next go-round.

Read Auden, "September 1, 1939".

And resist the popular panic-producing pseudo-pundits. A pox on those putzes.

13 vxbush  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:26:49am

re: #11 Charles

I'm wrong - she does have comments there.

Don't worry, though -- now that I've posted this, the ranting idiots will show up soon.

You're too kind, Charles. :D

14 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:28:47am

I'm more than a little disappointed in Solomon's comments in that thread, by the way.

15 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:29:12am

re: #14 Charles

I'm more than a little disappointed in Solomon's comments in that thread, by the way.

Does he post here?

16 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #9 Charles

I don't think she allows comments at Exit Zero. But it's cross-posted at Solomonia, and of course the haters came out in force there:

[Link: www.solomonia.com...]

I enjoyed the comment from "Anonymous" who doesn't "want to burn bridges with Charles". This person says, "1. I have no idea who Trifkovik is. 2. I do not know how well Robert Spencer knows who he is."

Meanwhile- the link with such information is sitting right there in the article. I guess the lesson is clicking links is teh hard.

17 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:31:10am

re: #11 Charles

I'm wrong - she does have comments there.

Don't worry, though -- now that I've posted this, the ranting idiots will show up soon.

Open comments when it comes to foam at the mouth kooks is like turning on an outside light at night. The bugs will swarm.

18 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:33:02am

re: #16 Sharmuta

I enjoyed the comment from "Anonymous" who doesn't "want to burn bridges with Charles". This person says, "1. I have no idea who Trifkovik is. 2. I do not know how well Robert Spencer knows who he is."

Meanwhile- the link with such information is sitting right there in the article. I guess the lesson is clicking links is teh hard.

Clicking a link means you consciously and actively are doing something. Better to just sit back and let one's betters tell us all we need to know.

/ is it sarcasm or is it memorex?

19 realwest  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:36:31am

re: #17 FurryOldGuyJeans
Uh, excuse me, but I made a comment at Exit Zero and don't think that I quite foam at the mouth nor am I a kook, thank you very much.

20 formercorpsman  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:36:45am

Yes, in the end they will.

Another point if I may, (taking a break from trying to loosen an axle nut free from my Suburban) is that for any of these folks who were behind President Bush & his efforts in Afghanistan / Iraq who do not have the ability to make the distinction between moderate muslims, and the extreme muslims, the contradiction is all over them.

Our efforts, precisely as the relate to those 2 operations were not to subjugate. We had a belief that if given the opportunity to experience life free of the Taliban or Hussein dynasty, the muslim population at large just might become the seeds of democracy needed to take root in the middle east.

If they defend Bush from the likes of an asinine anti-war left, yet refuse to distinguish people who may follow Islam, yet want western style freedoms, they are as bad as those who they claims against.

There is no excuse for this. There is no casual excuse for finding common ground with folks who admire the likes of Hitler.

Most of the time I lurk on these threads, and absorb the opinions of those well versed.

I mean this truly.

Thank you Charles. You are doing some heavy lifting right now.

21 solomonpanting  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:37:16am
Anyone who actually follows and reads the links that have been provided for years by “terrorism-watching” blogs like Robert Spencer’s Jihad Watch, Charles Johnson’s Little Green Footballs, Harry’s Place and Pamela Geller’s Atlas Shrugs would know that the source of Islamist terrorism is not “Islam”, it’s a political/paramilitary movement sponsored mostly by wealthy Saudis and Pakistanis and powerful Iranian mullahs.

That can't be true. I've heard that poverty and desperation are root causes.
//

22 Solomon  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:37:57am

re: #14 Charles

Sorry you're disappointed Charles. I'm a very big fan of your blog, as you know, and am trying hard to avoid being dragged in to what's become a very ugly and personal business.

23 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:38:17am

re: #19 realwest

Uh, excuse me, but I made a comment at Exit Zero and don't think that I quite foam at the mouth nor am I a kook, thank you very much.

Real, I think FOGJ was talking about THIS article and how the open comments available to THIS article will attract a lot of kooks.

He was not saying anyone who posts in a open comment thread is a kook.

24 [deleted]  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:38:29am
25 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:40:12am

re: #22 Solomon

With all due respect- I don't think taking a stand for decency is ugly.

And if you would take the time to review this matter (and I hope you do), you would see that the person who first made this personal was not Charles, but rather pamela geller.

26 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:40:47am

re: #22 Solomon

Sorry you're disappointed Charles. I'm a very big fan of your blog, as you know, and am trying hard to avoid being dragged in to what's become a very ugly and personal business.

It's not ugly and personal, it's the truth versus a lot of, in the least, equivoque on the part of Spencer, Geller and others, at the most, outright possible deceptions by those kind of folks.

The proog in what Charles says is rather simple, I can even understand it, so I don't know why you are having a problem with standing up for a side, the right side.

27 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:41:22am

re: #22 Solomon

Sorry you're disappointed Charles. I'm a very big fan of your blog, as you know, and am trying hard to avoid being dragged in to what's become a very ugly and personal business.

I would just ask you to take an unbiased look at the posts on LGF, then at the posts on Jihad Watch and Atlas Shrugs, and decide for yourself who is making this "ugly and personal" -- without just shrinking away from the whole subject and condemning everyone.

28 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:41:30am

re: #19 realwest

Uh, excuse me, but I made a comment at Exit Zero and don't think that I quite foam at the mouth nor am I a kook, thank you very much.

So sanity does combat against the onslaught of moonbattery.

Read again what I wrote and you will not see I made any clear distinction WHERE kooks show up, or that it is only kooks that show up.

29 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:42:57am

I would add to my #25 that Charles has reported facts on his blog. It is others who post smear jobs.

30 [deleted]  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:44:16am
31 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:44:30am

re: #27 Charles

I would just ask you to take an unbiased look at the posts on LGF, then at the posts on Jihad Watch and Atlas Shrugs, and decide for yourself who is making this "ugly and personal" -- without just shrinking away from the whole subject and condemning everyone.

Egads! Personal Inquiry into a matter! We can't have that! We have to take what the pundits say at face value!

/ is it sarcasm or is it memorex?

32 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:44:32am

Smear jobs, distortions, whitewashes, deflections, excuses.... those are on other blogs, not LGF.

33 Irish Rose  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:44:45am

She's absolutely right.
re: #1 Shug

History is going to be very kind to you Charles.
You stood up when it mattered , took the right stance and took a lot of heat but you didn't flinch.

I agree.

34 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:46:08am

re: #24 Iron Fist

[...] The Left [...] road rode their wave of sheer hatred to obtain power for the first time since 1994. [...]

Pardon me, but I take strong exception to the idea that Obama rode in on "sheer hatred".

That kind of thinking is what's got us where we are today.

For sheer hatred I'll match your leftists loons with rightist ranting rage-aholics any time, any place. And, news flash: They're not limited to fringe media like Air American or Radio Pacifica or Democracy now. They're there for your listening/viewing pleasure hour-by-hour on Fox.

At least Jon Stewart is funny. Can't say the same for Hannity, Beck, Coulter, Napolitano & Co.

35 solomonpanting  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:46:13am
Charles Johnson has always been more anti-fascist than anti-Islam

A simple distinction that goes far to explain the tacit support others may have for certain groups.

36 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:46:42am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Real, I think FOGJ was talking about THIS article and how the open comments available to THIS article will attract a lot of kooks.

He was not saying anyone who posts in a open comment thread is a kook.

I was actually saying that open comments anywhere can make kooks swarm, not just this instance. But you are correct that I was not saying anyone and everyone commenting is a kook. Far from it. Few are kooks, but they are a noisy lot.

37 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:47:20am

re: #34 Cato the Elder

Pardon me, but I take strong exception to the idea that Obama rode in on "sheer hatred".

That kind of thinking is what's got us where we are today.

For sheer hatred I'll match your leftists loons with rightist ranting rage-aholics any time, any place. And, news flash: They're not limited to fringe media like Air American or Radio Pacifica or Democracy now. They're there for your listening/viewing pleasure hour-by-hour on Fox.

At least Jon Stewart is funny. Can't say the same for Hannity, Beck, Coulter, Napolitano & Co.

You're quite right. Obama's message had NOTHING to do with hatred. He was relentlessly upbeat and positive, and there was not a hint of extremism or anger about his campaign.

That's why he won.

38 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:47:47am

*Wanders in, in pajamas, scratches at unwashed hair, blinks blood-shot eyes at screen*

"Ugly and personal? Who are you calling ugly and personal?"

Just kidding! I showered hours ago.

Seriously, we can only live history in one direction, and while we have to make the best call we can at the time we are in, we can also look back and see how similar situations turned out. The decision to completely disassociate oneself from fascists makes very good sense, given the recent past.

39 Irish Rose  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:48:49am

Charles, you must be feeling very good about this article. I do believe that the tide is finally turning.

40 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:49:09am

re: #37 Charles

OT - did you get my reply to you re: #176 Walter L. Newton

41 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:49:15am

re: #34 Cato the Elder

Pardon me, but I take strong exception to the idea that Obama rode in on "sheer hatred".

That kind of thinking is what's got us where we are today.

For sheer hatred I'll match your leftists loons with rightist ranting rage-aholics any time, any place. And, news flash: They're not limited to fringe media like Air American or Radio Pacifica or Democracy now. They're there for your listening/viewing pleasure hour-by-hour on Fox.

At least Jon Stewart is funny. Can't say the same for Hannity, Beck, Coulter, Napolitano & Co.

Egads! Facts instead of hyperbole! This is something we can not tolerate!

/ is it sarcasm or is it memorex?

42 DistantThunder  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:49:25am

I love M. Scott Peck's definition of evil: a combination of laziness and selfishness. So I reflected on the tone and principles of the extreme-right in the EU and find that they, like the Nazis, want an efficient solution to the "socially defective" problem, but not the same solution. Being efficient with people means treating them as objects. By contrast, being effective with people means helping them to meet their own needs, and encouraging them to be part of the community.

I think the extreme right in EU is panicked that they have invited a hostile and toxic culture into their midst - the extremists, who they have lumped together with the moderates and made it a racial issue. But rather then extending themselves to the non-extremists who feel isolated and marginalized because EU countries are less integrated culturally than almost any other country, they seems to cling to racial differences, in a desperate bid to save their society. This is laziness, and selfishness.

43 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:49:28am

re: #30 Iron Fist

As well the hindus and the norse old culture as well. Has several different meanings. I know that the norse meaning is a representation of the sun, and has been interpereted as a "sun wheel"

/actually it's the combination of two runes
//have way too much time on my hands at times.

44 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:50:22am

re: #30 Iron Fist

So where, exactly, does that leave the Buddhists? Seriously. They had the swastika a few thousand years longer than nazism.

And further back:
Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India, sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions / Dharmic religion such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

45 MandyManners  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:51:02am

Doesn't the Nazi swastika's arms point in the opposite direction?

46 MandyManners  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:51:13am

Don't.

47 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:51:39am

Sometimes it's hard to be a friend in the middle of a fight. I can understand that some bloggers are uncomfortable to be in that position. But it's not being a good friend to either party to remain neutral when one friend is right and the other friend is making a mistake. If more bloggers had come out when this first happened, perhaps pamela and robert would have listened- perhaps not. We'll never know. But it doesn't change the fact that staying neutral or avoiding this issue is being a friend to no one.

48 [deleted]  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:52:13am
49 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:52:39am

re: #30 Iron Fist

So where, exactly, does that leave the Buddhists? Seriously. They had the swastika a few thousand years longer than nazism.

American Indians use it too.

Context is everything.

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:53:06am

By the way, I've been debating with myself whether I should post a response to Melanie Phillips' completely ridiculous column on "intelligent design" creationism. She makes a number of claims in it that are simply wrong. I'm not sure whether she's just mistaken, or trying to fool people.

Now I see that DI shill David Klinghoffer is crowing about it at BeliefNet.

51 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:53:14am

re: #45 MandyManners

Doesn't the Nazi swastika's arms point in the opposite direction?

nope ...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

52 [deleted]  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:53:33am
53 Irish Rose  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:54:36am

re: #47 Sharmuta

Sometimes it's hard to be a friend in the middle of a fight. I can understand that some bloggers are uncomfortable to be in that position. But it's not being a good friend to either party to remain neutral when one friend is right and the other friend is making a mistake. If more bloggers had come out when this first happened, perhaps pamela and robert would have listened- perhaps not. We'll never know. But it doesn't change the fact that staying neutral or avoiding this issue is being a friend to no one.

Well said.
I'm updating mine as we speak.

54 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:54:51am

re: #52 Iron Fist

No, Hitler quite deliberately grafted it on as a Nazi symbol from the ancient sources.

Don't forget that the "Heil Hitler" arm salute was originally "Ave Caesar." That was stolen, too.

55 DistantThunder  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:55:20am

re: #50 Charles

By the way, I've been debating with myself whether I should post a response to Melanie Phillips' completely ridiculous column on "intelligent design" creationism. She makes a number of claims in it that are simply wrong. I'm not sure whether she's just mistaken, or trying to fool people.

Now I see that DI shill David Klinghoffer is crowing about it at BeliefNet.


Oh, do. People have been misled and many are simply naive.

56 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:55:58am

re: #48 Iron Fist

[...] As for hatred, it is hard to document anything comparable to, say, Al Gore from the Right in America. [...]

If you really believe that, you haven't been paying attention to what Charles has been linking to, and we have nothing further to say to each other on this subject. I'm not going to get into a hate-quote pissing match here; it would defile the thread.

57 Irish Rose  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:56:29am

Mary is really going to take some hits for this, look at her blogroll.

58 JHW  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:57:15am

re: #51 Bobibutu

The article showed an American Indian basketball team wearing the symbol on its uniform, I vaguely remember seeing something about some professional sports using the symbol or named "The Swastikas" pre-WW2.

59 Athos  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:57:28am

re: #34 Cato the Elder

I agree that he didn't ride in on sheer hatred - but leveraged and capitalized on the BDS saddled hard left by clearly running on not being Bush. Where the President does get blowback from the hard left is that upon gaining the office and seeing a bigger picture, he appears to be resisting from embracing the demands of the hard left for witch hunts and other actions which will damage the country and office of President.

60 Solomon  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:59:10am

re: #27 Charles

That's fair enough, Charles. It's just that in 6 years of heavy blogging I've studiously managed to avoid getting involved in any blog wars. It's just not my style. I'd rather ignore the attacks and go on with posting my own opinions and let others do the same, especially when our disagreements are out around the edges. There's just no winning in these things. All I'm asking is that people don't make this a with me or against me thing. I'm certainly not against you.

61 [deleted]  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:59:29am
62 Bubblehead II  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:59:37am

re: #22 Solomon

Fence sitting got a lot of people (mostly Jews) killed during the Holocaust
Fence sitting will get even more people killed in the future
Fence sitting will eventually leave splinters in your ass
Fence sitting IS NOT AN OPTION

Make up your mind.

/ Just my two cents.

63 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:59:42am

re: #59 Athos

I agree that he didn't ride in on sheer hatred - but leveraged and capitalized on the BDS saddled hard left by clearly running on not being Bush. Where the President does get blowback from the hard left is that upon gaining the office and seeing a bigger picture, he appears to be resisting from embracing the demands of the hard left for witch hunts and other actions which will damage the country and office of President.

Agreed. And I expected no less of him. Those who thought he was going to betheir tame moonbat weren't paying attention, either.

64 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:59:51am

re: #60 Solomon

That's fair enough, Charles. It's just that in 6 years of heavy blogging I've studiously managed to avoid getting involved in any blog wars. It's just not my style. I'd rather ignore the attacks and go on with posting my own opinions and let others do the same, especially when our disagreements are out around the edges. There's just no winning in these things. All I'm asking is that people don't make this a with me or against me thing. I'm certainly not against you.

So, you are with him?

65 Desert Dog  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:59:53am

re: #12 Cato the Elder

Upding for using the word apocolyptogasmic...nice

66 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:00:35pm

re: #45 MandyManners

Doesn't the Nazi swastika's arms point in the opposite direction?

Being nit-picky again, eh, Mandy? To the haters facts don't matter.

67 zuckerlilly  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:02:51pm

re: #49 Cato the Elder

American Indians use it too.

Context is everything.

Therefor the use of the Celtic cross in a political context is forbidden in Germany.

68 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:04:09pm

re: #60 Solomon

That's fair enough, Charles. It's just that in 6 years of heavy blogging I've studiously managed to avoid getting involved in any blog wars. It's just not my style. I'd rather ignore the attacks and go on with posting my own opinions and let others do the same, especially when our disagreements are out around the edges. There's just no winning in these things. All I'm asking is that people don't make this a with me or against me thing. I'm certainly not against you.

You're not afraid of getting some Neo-Nazi's pissed off at Solomon are you?
In your 6 years of hard blogging have you ever had to make a stand on your core beliefs? Ever? It's ok to stand in the middle..Just be careful who's ass you have to kiss to stay there..
hope today finds you well

69 solomonpanting  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:05:14pm

re: #58 JHW

The article showed an American Indian basketball team wearing the symbol on its uniform, I vaguely remember seeing something about some professional sports using the symbol or named "The Swastikas" pre-WW2.

The team's best player was nicknamed "The Sultan of Swastika".

70 Bubblehead II  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:05:26pm

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

Sounds more like he is trying to pull a Switzerland.

71 Sharmuta  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:05:33pm

re: #60 Solomon

I think the answer here stems from your principles as it stems from the principles held by others. I, and most of the folks here, "stand with" Charles because on principle we ourselves don't want anything to do with neo-fascists. I feel I can speak for most of my fellow Lizards when I say our opposition to radical islam is an ideological one, and it's the exact same reason we oppose other fascist movements as well. In this regard- where you stand should be obvious to you. Whether you're willing to take a public stand on your principles is up to you.

72 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:05:48pm

re: #49 Cato the Elder

American Indians use it too.

Context is everything.

Context require knowledge and education. Too many people just want American Idol or Survivor.

73 JHW  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:06:54pm

re: #69 solomonpanting

I had to look to see if buzz or OR posted that.

74 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:07:47pm

I hate Illinois Nazis.

Jake Blues

75 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:08:31pm

re: #74 Amos (Zionist Minion)

I hate Illinois Nazis.

Jake Blues

LOL
I'm on a mission from God!
/love that movie

76 solomonpanting  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:08:33pm

re: #73 JHW

I had to look to see if buzz or OR posted that.

Just think of me as a poor man's buzzor.

Off to lunch.

77 Athos  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:08:39pm

re: #60 Solomon

When one walks on the road straddling the double yellow line - there is still a lot of risk.

At some point, a stand has to be taken based on one's character and principles. Each person does have to determine when / where that stand will be taken....because the middle path isn't always as safe as it might seem.

78 Desert Dog  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:09:30pm

re: #59 Athos

I agree that he didn't ride in on sheer hatred - but leveraged and capitalized on the BDS saddled hard left by clearly running on not being Bush. Where the President does get blowback from the hard left is that upon gaining the office and seeing a bigger picture, he appears to be resisting from embracing the demands of the hard left for witch hunts and other actions which will damage the country and office of President.

Well, besides that nationalizing of the banks, the auto industry and healthcare, spending trillions of dollars we do not have, and going around the world apologizing to everyone and bowing to or gladly shaking the hands of blood soaked dictators, he is not caving to the whims of the left.

I will give him kudos where kudos are due. He sees the light when it comes to the scumbags held down in Gitmo and he did not pull the troops our of Iraq all willy-nilly as he said would over and over and over again during the campaign.

He is not a card carrying member of the "People's Party", but he is the biggest lefty we've had in the WH for many, many years....and, he securely has both houses of the Congress.....there's a new sheriff in town, and he does things differently. I hope we all survive the onslaught.

79 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:09:41pm

re: #58 JHW

The article showed an American Indian basketball team wearing the symbol on its uniform, I vaguely remember seeing something about some professional sports using the symbol or named "The Swastikas" pre-WW2.

Here they are:

That’s The Swastikas, a Canadian girls’ hockey team from Edmonton circa 1916.

[Link: www.neatorama.com...]

80 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:10:35pm

re: #67 zuckerlilly

Therefor the use of the Celtic cross in a political context is forbidden in Germany.

Even if it's the "long" cross - i.e. the one with the extended post at the bottom? I thought it was just the even-armed one.

In any case, I'm sure the people in charge know how to tell an Irish Catholic from a Nazi. I myself wear a replica of the Kilklispeen Cross, and I'm not worried about my upcoming visit to Berlin! ;^)

(I particularly love the little dog in that picture.)

Nebenbei, wo wohnst du in Deutschland?

81 JHW  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:12:19pm

re: #79 Bobibutu

Thanks, that's what I was thinking of. Also, a little town near me had a semi-pro baseball team named "The Swastikas" in the '20s, IIRC.

82 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:13:48pm

and once again, I will state...this sort of nonsense is why we got the remainder of my family out of Europe a few years ago... we saw this coming and said, "Not again." We remember the first time around and didn't feel like repeats.

83 Athos  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:14:16pm

re: #78 Desert Dog

Well, besides that nationalizing of the banks, the auto industry and healthcare, spending trillions of dollars we do not have, and going around the world apologizing to everyone and bowing to or gladly shaking the hands of blood soaked dictators, he is not caving to the whims of the left.

Sorry, my comments were limited in context to the point being discussed. As for those programs and decisions that he has made, I don't consider them as being done in a cave to the left as those decisions, I strongly believe, were made on the basis of his core beliefs as a progressive.

He is not a card carrying member of the "People's Party", but he is the biggest lefty we've had in the WH for many, many years....and, he securely has both houses of the Congress.....there's a new sheriff in town, and he does things differently. I hope we all survive the onslaught.

I agree with that. He is the biggest progressive who has stepped forward since at least FDR, although one can make a case for LBJ's 'Great Society' initiatives as being nearly as progressive as the current President's. It is unfortunate that he has the power of Congress to support him - it's something that FDR leveraged quite well until the SCOTUS finally stopped some of the more overriding and expansionistic (of Federal power) of FDR's attempt to remake the US.

84 SummerSong  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:14:35pm

Nice!

Delayed gratification, but gratification nonetheless!

Stick to your guns, Charles. It's making a difference.

85 [deleted]  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:18:17pm
86 zuckerlilly  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:18:23pm

re: #80 Cato the Elder

Nebenbei, wo wohnst du in Deutschland?

Ich wohne gar nicht in Deutschland. Ich bin Österreicherin ;-) - gar nicht weit vom Geburtsort des masenmörderischen Teppichbeissers entfernt :-( - kurz: ich bin Salzburgerin. Darum ist mein Avatar auch ein Mozart ;-) - allerdings mit einem Wortspiel verbunden.

Kennst du das Wort "motzen"?

87 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:18:41pm

re: #81 JHW

Thanks, that's what I was thinking of. Also, a little town near me had a semi-pro baseball team named "The Swastikas" in the '20s, IIRC.

Thank you for tweaking my curiosity.

[Link: www.uniwatchblog.com...]

My research on the Edmonton photo led me to this book, written by the Canadian artist/mystic known as ManWoman, who’s spent years trying to rescue the swastika’s image its association with the Nazis. After I got in touch with him, he was kind enough to provide me with several additional examples of pre-Nazi swastika-clad teams:

• Here we have the Windsor Swastikas, circa 1909, who played in Nova Scotia. Note the varied swastika styles on the homemade crests. Here’s a slightly later version of the team.

• The Fernie Swastikas played in British Columbia in the 1920s. If team’s use of the swastika itself doesn’t make you uneasy, then the Golliwogg mascot doll being held by the Fernie player in this photo probably will. (If you’re not familiar with Golliwoggs, look here.)

• Hockey isn’t the only sport with swastikas in its past. Here’s a baseball uniform, which was worn by a 1920s team in Swastika, Ontario. (Yes, there’s actually a town called Swastika, Ontario — look.)

• ManWoman says this baseball cap was originally worn by the 1917 Canyon City Swastikas.

• And here’s a swastika-stamped golf club — not sure of the date.

There are several other books out there that examine the swastika’s graphic history. This one, by the design historian Steve Heller (who happens to be a friend of mine), is particularly good, although it doesn’t have any non-Nazi sports examples.

As Steve and many other writers have noted, the swastika is a spectacularly successful piece of design — elegant, balanced, solid yet fluid. But it’s become so inextricably associated with one particular chapter of history that it’s hard to conceive of it in any other context. In a way, this reaffirms one of Uni Watch’s underlying premises: the notion that logos and symbols can pack an emotional punch that goes beyond any rational reckoning. Intellectually, I know the swastika worn by those Edmonton girls had nothing to do with the Nazis, just as I know the Mets I grew up watching in the early 1970s had nothing to do with the Mets of today. Emotionally, however, the connections seem obvious in both cases, even though the only real connection involves a swastika in one instance and the Mets’ logo and colors in the other. That’s the power of design for ya.

To see how complicated the swastika’s history really is, check out this 1931 photo, which I found while doing photo research for this entry. It shows the basketball team from Freedom High School in Freedom, Pennsylvania, and was published in the school’s yearbook. And what did a town called Freedom use for the title of its high school yearbook in 1931? As you can see if you scroll down beneath the photo, it was called The Swastika.

88 traderjoe9  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:21:22pm
Youtube Video

Yummy.

89 zuckerlilly  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:22:00pm

Not again that g-damned swastika discussion again, please!

90 Cato  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:33:52pm

What Mary says is blatantly incorrect, although I wish the sentiment were true. When Leftists supported the extremists their candidate got elected.

In the long run I think it unwise to tolerate the extremists. But in the short run it often works out the way you would want it.

91 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:39:36pm

re: #86 zuckerlilly

Ich wohne gar nicht in Deutschland. Ich bin Österreicherin ;-) - gar nicht weit vom Geburtsort des masenmörderischen Teppichbeissers entfernt :-( - kurz: ich bin Salzburgerin. Darum ist mein Avatar auch ein Mozart ;-) - allerdings mit einem Wortspiel verbunden.

Kennst du das Wort "motzen"?

Allerdings! Es gibt Macher und Motzer. Letztere beherrschen die Blogosphäre. ;^)

92 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:40:25pm

re: #90 Cato

What Mary says is blatantly incorrect, although I wish the sentiment were true. When Leftists supported the extremists their candidate got elected.

In the long run I think it unwise to tolerate the extremists. But in the short run it often works out the way you would want it.

That's just flat-out wrong.

What got Barack Obama elected was his positive upbeat message, from which he never deviated. There was not a hint of extremism about anything Obama said during the campaign, and that's why the associations with people like Wright and Ayers just never stuck to him.

His campaign was absolutely not about extremism. He got the middle of the road people on board by NOT being an extremist.

93 Velvet Elvis  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:41:55pm

re: #78 Desert Dog

Well, besides that nationalizing of the banks, the auto industry and healthcare, spending trillions of dollars we do not have, and going around the world apologizing to everyone and bowing to or gladly shaking the hands of blood soaked dictators, he is not caving to the whims of the left.
.

Actually, he hasn't nationalized the banks. This is the principle basis of a lot of the criticism he's getting from the left from people like Krugman and others.

94 MacDuff  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:42:27pm

re: #80 Cato the Elder

Perhaps too much focus on symbols and not enough focus on ideology. The Germans have real Nazis in their midst and they're worried about symbols? I have a Celtic Cross that I bought in Ireland hanging in my house. I see it NOT as a symbol of "white pride" or any other such Nazi rubbish; I see it as a Celtic Cross.

The Klan burned crosses, so should we ban crosses lest we be thought racist? Much ado about nothing, not enough ado about something.

95 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:43:34pm

re: #85 Iron Fist

Where, exactly, do you think I read about Gore's screed amongst all of the otherarticles condemning the anti-Americanism and hatred of the Left?

But you skip over the ones about anti-Americanism (!) and hatred on the Right? Again I say, there is nothing for me to choose between, as far as that goes.

96 solomonpanting  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:44:15pm

re: #92 Charles

His campaign was absolutely not about extremism. He got the middle of the road people on board by NOT being an extremist.

Which doesn't bode well for the US, if his comment about "spreading the wealth around" is no longer viewed as extremist.

97 Wishbone  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:45:19pm

re: #92 Charles

Just like Tony Blair........ Got the middle of the road crowd on board by not being an out and out, die hard leftie. He was the cherry on the turd that sold Labour to the electorate. 'Things can only get better' and all of that......

Look how fucked we are now.............

98 Velvet Elvis  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:50:45pm

re: #92 Charles

That's just flat-out wrong.

What got Barack Obama elected was his positive upbeat message, from which he never deviated. There was not a hint of extremism about anything Obama said during the campaign, and that's why the associations with people like Wright and Ayers just never stuck to him.

His campaign was absolutely not about extremism. He got the middle of the road people on board by NOT being an extremist.

I continue to think he was the most moderate of the crop of Democratic candidates vying for the nomination. Hillary Clinton or John Edwards would have governed much farther from the left than we've seen from Obama.

99 MacDuff  Sat, May 2, 2009 12:54:27pm

re: #92 Charles

That's just flat-out wrong.

What got Barack Obama elected was his positive upbeat message, from which he never deviated. There was not a hint of extremism about anything Obama said during the campaign, and that's why the associations with people like Wright and Ayers just never stuck to him.

His campaign was absolutely not about extremism. He got the middle of the road people on board by NOT being an extremist.

Frankly, the thing that struck me about the election was the lack of extremism on both sides. I think each of the candidates conducted themselves as gentlemen. The election spoke well for our country, and even now, the whole race thing is not really an issue (save some fringe nut jobs).

As for what we got as opposed to what was being sold....that's another subject altogether that will be discussed ad nauseum for the next four years.

100 bungie  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:01:18pm

re: #92 Charles

He also got elected because he was black and appealed to a large number of people of color and others who felt it was time (or past time) in the US for a black President.

So what we need to do now is to form a larger, more inclusive coalition and bring back a sizable number of these people. The only way to do this it seems to me is around the idea of economic conservatism and fiscal responsibility (and of course, a strong defense, too). There is no agreement or consensus on any other issues so why even go there.

101 victor_yugo  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:07:32pm

re: #37 Charles

You're quite right. Obama's message had NOTHING to do with hatred. He was relentlessly upbeat and positive, and there was not a hint of extremism or anger about his campaign.

That's why he won.

It didn't hurt to have ACORN stacking both the votes and the counting.

102 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:09:34pm

re: #101 victor_yugo

It didn't hurt to have ACORN stacking both the votes and the counting.

Bullshit.

103 danrudy  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:11:15pm

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

BTW...
I sent you a few more links for your perusal on the other thread.
I wasnt sure if you would be checking back

104 bungie  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:12:19pm

re: #98 Conservative Moonbat

I continue to think he was the most moderate of the crop of Democratic candidates vying for the nomination. Hillary Clinton or John Edwards would have governed much farther from the left than we've seen from Obama.

I so disagree. Sounds to me as though you are rationalizing. I think Obama truly wants to remake America in the image of Europe and will make every effort to redistribute the wealth. I think Edwards and Clinton are more typical pro-labor, liberal democrats and would not have done anything as radical. I don't think they would have printed as much money. I can't see Hilary snubbing Gordon Brown or hugging the Queen or canceling a meeting with Netanyahu.

105 Cato  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:13:47pm

re: #92 Charles


I think you underestimate the effect of the anti-Bush extremeist sentiment on the election. It is true President Obama was himself did not exhibit extremism, but his most vocal supporters did. He could plausibly deny association with them, but coordinated attacks, even if lodged from two separate groups without knowledge of each others exact actions are still coordinated to reach a goal.

106 Lynn B.  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:19:47pm

Commenter "instinct" over there at Mary's place missed a dose or two of its meds.

Poor thing.

107 Irish Rose  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:28:51pm

BTW and slightly off topic, I've been linking for months to thereligionofpeace.com (I'm sorry to say) and have added their counters to my sites and blogs.

No more.

Any respect that I ever had for the owners of this website has gone right out the window. As of this afternoon, the links to their website and the counters are gone.

Permanently.

108 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:35:31pm

re: #106 Lynn B.

Commenter "instinct" over there at Mary's place missed a dose or two of its meds.

Poor thing.

See? That didn't take long.

It's amazing how the people who rant and rave about how "insignificant" LGF is, are apparently the same ones who obsessively watch the site so they can scream about me at stalker sites, or go to any blogs I link and post hateful comments about me.

It's awful to be so "insignificant."

109 Irish Rose  Sat, May 2, 2009 1:42:39pm

re: #108 Charles

See? That didn't take long.

It's amazing how the people who rant and rave about how "insignificant" LGF is, are apparently the same ones who obsessively watch the site so they can scream about me at stalker sites, or go to any blogs I link and post hateful comments about me.

It's awful to be so "insignificant."

You must be crushed by their indifference.

110 Cato  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:02:34pm

re: #102 Cato the Elder

I think ACORN did do that. I just think it did not effect the outcome of the election.

111 Randall Gross  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:18:19pm

re: #92 Charles

That's just flat-out wrong.

What got Barack Obama elected was his positive upbeat message, from which he never deviated. There was not a hint of extremism about anything Obama said during the campaign, and that's why the associations with people like Wright and Ayers just never stuck to him.

His campaign was absolutely not about extremism. He got the middle of the road people on board by NOT being an extremist.

I agree with Charles on this one. When Reagan ran it was his positivity that got him elected. Morning in America. Anyone who remembers the two campaigns also remembers the large smear campaign that was run against him, both from without, and from within the party. He got the nickname "Teflon Ron" for a reason. Nothing worked to tear down his popularity either, and his second term saw him elected with even greater margin.

That's the message that needs to soak in to all of the nihilistic corners of the Republican party - if they are counting on "four and out" like Johnson and Carter, they better not count their chickens. They better start thinking "like Clinton" not "Like Carter" as they are now.

112 BartB  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:27:38pm

re: #92 Charles

That's just flat-out wrong.

What got Barack Obama elected was his positive upbeat message, from which he never deviated. There was not a hint of extremism about anything Obama said during the campaign, and that's why the associations with people like Wright and Ayers just never stuck to him.

His campaign was absolutely not about extremism. He got the middle of the road people on board by NOT being an extremist.

Much of what President Obama (pbuh) has done is what he said he would do. Nobody believed he could possible be serious about some of his comments.
Look at his current staff - I see no sign of a moderate in the lot.
On a scale of (-1) to (+1) where -1 is extreme left, I see the President's
staff and agenda as about -25.
Seriously, I wonder how many years it will take to undo the damage that he has already done, let alone what he will do.

113 JHW  Sat, May 2, 2009 2:33:33pm

re: #87 Bobibutu

Thanks for that interesting response. I was away for a bit, so I'm late replying. The little town near me I mentioned that had a semi-pro "The Swastikas" baseball team is Aberdeen, Washington, more well known for being Kurt Cobains hometown. Nowadays their semi-pro team is "Loggers", a hell of a lot more in keeping and without the swastika associations. I spent a while in Asia also and saw the symbol on many, many Buddhist temples, very ancient. Thanks again.

114 Pupdawg  Sat, May 2, 2009 3:06:26pm

Geeeeez, I seriously hate nazis.

115 jcross1kirk  Sat, May 2, 2009 7:03:28pm

I think Obama's as leftist as a guy can be and be elected in this country, but he's no whacko-murderous-fascist like has been mentioned elsewhere in discussions on the subject. As for him being elected, it was 65% a referendum on the Bush Presidency and 35% the ability of Obama to make himself into what people wanted to see. Oh, he had help from the media, in considerable amounts, but millions knew he was a buffoon and still voted for him.

The election wasn't a repudiation of the War on Terror, or fiscal conservatism, but of the moderate Republicans and the overemphasis on social/religious conservatism...and I'm a pretty conservative guy.

116 jcross1kirk  Sat, May 2, 2009 7:04:52pm

And like #111 (Thanos) said, Obama is more like Bubba Clinton than people realize. A hell of a lot more.

117 dak  Sat, May 2, 2009 9:25:04pm

Or, as that cartoon Schlock Mercenary used to say (and I don't know which rule number it is):

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less.

118 Zimriel  Sat, May 2, 2009 11:30:49pm

re: #112 BartB

Much of what President Obama (pbuh) has done is what he said he would do. Nobody believed he could possible be serious about some of his comments.
Look at his current staff - I see no sign of a moderate in the lot.
On a scale of (-1) to (+1) where -1 is extreme left, I see the President's
staff and agenda as about -25.
Seriously, I wonder how many years it will take to undo the damage that he has already done, let alone what he will do.

Interesting set of downdings on this one. One from a person who not SO long ago posted that "Obama needs to resign already"...

I suspect the "pbuh" snark was a turnoff. You have to be careful about that here.

Charles is half right that Obama talked a moderate game in the campaign... except when the 'prompter was off, and then you heard the leftism come out. Mind you, the electorate wanted to believe in The One and so they glided over the gaffes and voted for the 'prompter.

I am guessing that you, like me, tended to listen to Obama more when he was speaking from his heart and not from his 'prompter. In that respect his leftist governance thus far was not, is not, and won't be any surprise.

119 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 7:05:31am

re: #118 Zimriel

Yes- I did make the comment that 0bama should resign- because he was laughing at the economic troubles of this country. I can only imagine the outrage that would have happened had that been a republican. And I would not have been any kinder to a republican for laughing at such an inopportune moment. It was disgusting.

And yes- I dinged down that comment precisely because of the "(pbuh)" crack.

120 maryatexitzero  Sun, May 3, 2009 7:58:42am

I was on a plane from NY to California all day yesterday, so I'm a little late to the party. Thanks, Charles, for the link! There's a lot to catch up with here -

121 maryatexitzero  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:10:19am

Fence sitting IS NOT AN OPTION

As an independent moderate, I think it's a good idea to make an effort to accept the opinions of the fence sitters. It's not true that , as Jim Hightower says, "There's Nothing in the Middle of the Road but Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos." Anyone who drives Texas roads knows that the dead armadillos roll to the extreme right or left.

Most Americans are pragmatic, middle of the road voters. They don't ally with either team. Before WWII, most Germans were extreme supporters of Hitler, for a variety of reasons. European politics are marred by their tendency to support the extreme left or right. From what I can see of European politics, pragmatism never really crossed the Atlantic.

Europeans also tend to expect the state, and their politicians, to solve all of their problems. It would probably be a good idea for Americans to avoid falling into that trap. As I said on Solomonia:

Our current policy is the exact opposite of anything resembling common sense. 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi, allowed into this country without a background check due to the State Department's "Visa Express" program for our Saudi friends.
Although Homeland Security demanded that State disband the program, they tried to bring it back (they may have already succeeded). State is currently allowing 20,000 Muslim Saudi students into the country. What could go possibly go wrong with that?
Since our government (and most western governments) refuse to admit that some of our friends are actually enemies, people have to use their own judgment, and create their own theories, to figure out who the 'enemy' is. Since our government (Republican and Democrat) is less than honest with us, the fault for all of this confusion is not with individual bloggers - it lies with the people who are deliberately keeping us in the dark.

Political activism can be a solution to some problems, but having the 'right' person in office (or incessantly criticizing the 'wrong' person) isn't the solution to everything. Scientists like Norman Borlaug or Jonas Salk have done more for worldwide well being than any politician I can think of. When the political situation is a mess, sometimes it helps to take a moderate, detached view of the whole process, and to look for solutions in other places.

122 Toastrider  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:12:57am

The enemy of my enemy is a problem for later; in the meantime, they might be useful.

123 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:55:27am

re: #122 Toastrider

The enemy of my enemy is a problem for later; in the meantime, they might be useful.

Not when the enemy of my enemy has also been an enemy; one with whom, not very long ago, a dreadful war was fought that killed tens of millions.

124 Toastrider  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:24:06pm

re: #123 Salamantis

Not when the enemy of my enemy has also been an enemy; one with whom, not very long ago, a dreadful war was fought that killed tens of millions.

If you knew where the quote came from, you'd have never missed the sarcasm :)

125 Toastrider  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:32:58pm

Apologies for the double-post. I tossed up the one above, then thought about it and came back to write a little more clearly. I should've added that the quote, such as it is, comes from a fictional character; a near-sociopathic inquisitorial type who justified all sorts of nasty things in the name of his cause.

(And for those who are geeks: the character is Inquisitor Quixos, from the Warhammer 40,000 universe).

Never post immediately after coming home from a long day at work; it never turns out well, kids.


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