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Melanie Phillips Takes a Wrong Turn on 'Intelligent Design' Creationism

Science | Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:11:56 pm PDT

Melanie Phillips has done good work exposing the danger of Islamic militancy in Britain, and I’ve linked many of her articles on the subject here at LGF. She’s also taken a principled stand against Eurofascist groups such as the BNP, who try to gain legitimacy by claiming to be “anti-jihad.”

But she’s simply wrong in this article. Way wrong: Creating An Insult To Intelligence.

She claims that “intelligent design” is: 1) based on science, not religion, and 2) not related to creationism.

Wrong, and wrong again.

If “intelligent design” is really based on science, why have their advocates failed to produce any scientific evidence for that claim, despite millions of dollars worth of funding and years in which to do it? Instead, “intelligent design” proponents spend all their time on public relations. Where are the peer reviewed studies? Where are the experimental proofs that can be duplicated by other scientists? Answer: nonexistent.

As for her claim that “intelligent design” is not based on religion, this is incredibly easy to refute. All we have to do is read the very words of the people who promote ID, starting with the man considered the father of the movement, Phillip E. Johnson:

This [the intelligent design movement] isn’t really, and never has been, a debate about science, it’s about religion and philosophy.

And that’s not the only time Johnson has specifically explained the religious nature of ID. Another quote:

The Intelligent Design movement starts with the recognition that “In the beginning was the Word,” and “In the beginning God created.” Establishing that point isn’t enough, but it is absolutely essential to the rest of the gospel message.

Another ID proponent, William Dembski, also makes the religious intent of “intelligent design” crystal clear in this quote:

Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration.

So there can be absolutely no doubt that Phillips is completely incorrect when she claims there is no religious basis to the ID movement.

Her second claim, that “intelligent design” is not related to creationism, is even more ridiculous. In the Dover trial (which she derides by saying “the court was simply wrong” and biologist Ken Miller’s testimony was “muddled”) the creationist origin of ID was proven, again beyond a shadow of a doubt.

In that trial, the National Center for Science Education obtained a sequential series of drafts for the primary ID textbook titled Of Pandas and People, and discovered that the book had begun its existence as a work of pure young earth creationism. Here’s a video presentation by the NCSE documenting their exposé of this textbook:

Youtube Video

I hope that Melanie Phillips is simply uninformed on these subjects, and has been misled by the deceptive propaganda that pours relentlessly out of the anti-evolution Discovery Institute — because I don’t really want to believe she’s being deliberately dishonest.

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1036 comments

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1 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:13:56pm

Crap. Not another one.

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:14:10pm

A lot of anti-Jihad people seem to have fallen for the other religious authoritarian hogwash.

3 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:14:52pm

re: #1 HelloDare

Crap. Not another one.

It is a trend and fashion that is becoming unpleasant and very alarming.

4 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:15:06pm

If “intelligent design” is really based on science, why have their advocates failed to produce any scientific evidence for that claim, despite millions of dollars worth of funding and years in which to do it?

Ummmmm. Because there isn't any and that what they have brought forth as "proof" has been debunked as out right fraudulent.

5 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:15:17pm

i am not ready to toss her under the bus on this. esp since she has done yeoman's work supporting Israel and other issues i care greatly about.

6 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:16:16pm

for me it is a theological issue and I don't debate religion.

7 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:16:44pm

re: #1 HelloDare

Crap. Not another one.

Charles,

I was talking about the person, not the thread. Love these threads as depressing as they might be.

8 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:17:21pm

If the testimony of anyone in the Dover trial was muddled, it was that of ID proponent Michael Behe, who was thoroughly embarrassed on the stand having to admit astrology would be considered science under the DI's definition, and claiming there were no peer reviewed articles on the evolution of the immune system, only to be buried by a mountain of peer reviewed articles and books on the subject. As far as testimony goes- his was an epic fail.

9 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:18:26pm

re: #4 Bubblehead II

If “intelligent design” is really based on science, why have their advocates failed to produce any scientific evidence for that claim, despite millions of dollars worth of funding and years in which to do it?

Ummmmm. Because there isn't any and that what they have brought forth as "proof" has been debunked as out right fraudulent.

They are pushing to get their brand of science legitimized so there will be evidence to back up their claims. I used to think it strange and ironic that this ultra-religious organization, the Discovery Institute, chose to have its headquarters in UBER-Liberal, ULTRA-Socialist Seattle, but I came to the conclusion and realization that it happened because crazies like to swarm.

10 Big Steve  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:18:59pm

Are we witnessing evolution in the news this week with H1N1? I know that there are arguments as to whether viruses are really alive since they can't self replicate. However H1N1 is a new virus and didn't exist until presumably recently. As I understand it influenza mutates when an individual is infected with a non-human influenza which doesn't affect them but then also catches a human strain and within a single cell the two DNA packages interact creating a new virus.

11 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:20:56pm

re: #10 Big Steve

Are we witnessing evolution in the news this week with H1N1? I know that there are arguments as to whether viruses are really alive since they can't self replicate. However H1N1 is a new virus and didn't exist until presumably recently. As I understand it influenza mutates when an individual is infected with a non-human influenza which doesn't affect them but then also catches a human strain and within a single cell the two DNA packages interact creating a new virus.

Yet the Creationism wonks will say they have always believed in micro-evolution, virus mutation and such, but reject macro-evolution, the change of species over time.

12 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:21:52pm

re: #5 yochanan

i am not ready to toss her under the bus on this. esp since she has done yeoman's work supporting Israel and other issues i care greatly about.

Who said anything about "tossing her under the bus?"

Am I supposed to refrain from criticizing people when they go off base, and publish articles that are drastically mistaken?

13 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:22:10pm

I still love Melanie, even if she is wrong about this issue. her book "Londonistan" was excellent

14 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:22:43pm

re: #9 FurryOldGuyJeans

They are pushing to get their brand of science fiction legitimized so there will be evidence to back up their claims. I used to think it strange and ironic that this ultra-religious organization, the Discovery Institute, chose to have its headquarters in UBER-Liberal, ULTRA-Socialist Seattle, but I came to the conclusion and realization that it happened because crazies like to swarm.

FTFY. :-)

15 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:23:00pm

re: #12 Charles

Good on you, Charles.

16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:23:00pm

re: #5 yochanan

i am not ready to toss her under the bus on this. esp since she has done yeoman's work supporting Israel and other issues i care greatly about.

I don't see Charles "tossing her under the bus" at all. He is just pointing out some very muddled and wrong-headed thinking.

17 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:23:13pm

Intelligent agency? That's a hoot. Fish were "designed" by an "intelligent designer" from an "intelligent agency." This is starting to sound more like an alien based religion like the Raliens.

18 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:24:27pm
I hope that Melanie Phillips is simply uninformed on these subjects, and has been misled by the deceptive propaganda that pours relentlessly out of the anti-evolution Discovery Institute — because I don’t really want to believe she’s being deliberately dishonest.

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

19 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:24:50pm

re: #14 Bubblehead II

FTFY. :-)

Didn't need any fixin' since I said THEIR brand of science. You know, the one that is inspired by G-d and not S-tan?

20 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:25:18pm

That is just a bad article.

ID is science.

That is all she said, and she said it with the same proof I have provided above.

What kind of article is that? The court was wrong because I said so?

Come on.

21 Nekama  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:25:55pm

Very disappointing. Melanie is someone who I really believed had her head screwed on straight.

Ron Paul must be responsible.

22 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:25:57pm

re: #17 Gus 802

Intelligent agency? That's a hoot. Fish were "designed" by an "intelligent designer" from an "intelligent agency." This is starting to sound more like an alien based religion like the Raliens.

Couldn't have been the US Congress or any agency of the US Government if you are looking for some intelligence.

/ is it sarcasm or is it memorex?

23 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:26:21pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

So is biologist Ken Miller, whose testimony she derides as "muddled."

24 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:26:26pm

True, but it still reads like a bad science fiction novel.

25 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:26:37pm

i never thought of this as science for me it is a religious subject.

i personally have a problem with the politization of science were ever it comes from the right or left.

26 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:27:09pm

re: #22 FurryOldGuyJeans

Couldn't have been the US Congress or any agency of the US Government if you are looking for some intelligence.

/ is it sarcasm or is it memorex?

Maybe we should look at the CIA -- Creationist Intelligent Agency. //

27 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:10pm

24 was meant for you fogj.

/Must really learn to hit the reply button.

28 Big Steve  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:16pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

As Richard Dawkins points out why does being "religious" get a pass in our society?

29 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:22pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

I personally know quite a few VERY religious people who reject totally out of hand such humbuggery as ID and Creationism. You smear with a VERY broad brush there.

"A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles."

30 Lightspeed  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:43pm

I think I know a way to discredit ID once and for all. Intelligent Design, in order to avoid "religious" association, does not name the desginer. It simply posits that there is an intelligent designer. Why not aliens? If somehow we can get the UFO nuts to latch on to ID with aliens as the designer, then it is game over. Can you imagine serious MSM reporting on Intelligent Desgin with the likes of David Icke et al backing it up?

31 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:44pm

re: #11 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet the Creationism wonks will say they have always believed in micro-evolution, virus mutation and such, but reject macro-evolution, the change of species over time.

Yes. And for proof, Kirk Cameron will cite that the flu virus has never turned into a duck.

32 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:29:40pm

Two words for Melanie Phillips: cdesign proponentsists.

33 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:16pm

re: #31 HelloDare

Yes. And for proof, Kirk Cameron will cite that the flu virus has never turned into a duck.

I don't go to Kirk for critical thinking skills. He is and has been an actor, a reader of other's words.

34 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:37pm

Ms Phillips has history:

Intolerance against religion (2002)

But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it. What Emmanuel questions in its religion classes, and may question in its science classes, is scientism, the doctrine that says the only questions worth asking are the ones that science can answer.

The false faith of scientific reason

Such ’scientism’ — as this overreach is termed — goes beyond the ability of science to explain the nature of the world around us and claims to tell us how life began. Yet the assumption that science provides a complete theory of knowledge is itself fundamentally unscientific.

35 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:48pm

jews have a saying when the mosach comes we will have the answers.

until then i will let this one go.

36 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:52pm

re: #30 Lightspeed

Imagine the mental contortions that will happen if life is discovered on Mars.

37 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:03pm

re: #30 Lightspeed

I think I know a way to discredit ID once and for all. Intelligent Design, in order to avoid "religious" association, does not name the desginer. It simply posits that there is an intelligent designer. Why not aliens? If somehow we can get the UFO nuts to latch on to ID with aliens as the designer, then it is game over. Can you imagine serious MSM reporting on Intelligent Desgin with the likes of David Icke et al backing it up?

Exactly. Since, anything can therefore be defined as the intelligent designer since there is no explicit definition within the ID textbooks. This can be as you suggested alien beings with a capacity to create life. Or any other being for that matter.

38 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:08pm

"Evangelical athiests"? I hate that nonsensical misnomer:

WEBSTERS:
evan·gel·ic -ik
Function:
adjective
1: of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels
2: protestant
3: emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual
4 acapitalized : of or relating to the Evangelical Church in Germany boften capitalized : of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism : fundamentalist coften capitalized : low church
5: marked by militant or crusading zeal : evangelistic

39 c6gunner  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:18pm

re: #6 yochanan

for me it is a theological issue and I don't debate religion.

For me it's a custard issue, and I don't debate desert toppings.

40 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:34pm

re: #31 HelloDare

Yes. And for proof, Kirk Cameron will cite that the flu virus has never turned into a duck.

Yet he will never admit that human mitochondria are incorporated bacterium.

Odd, isn't it?

41 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:46pm

re: #30 Lightspeed

ID is of course the argument from design of Descartes as a proof of the existence of God. The argument is circular, as Immanuel Kant showed.

42 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:04pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

I personally know quite a few VERY religious people who reject totally out of hand such humbuggery as ID and Creationism. You smear with a VERY broad brush there.

"A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles."

Smear? I was just applying logic.

43 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:15pm

re: #34 freetoken

I wonder if she could name one of these supposed holes in the theory of evolution.

44 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:31pm

re: #36 HelloDare

Imagine the mental contortions that will happen if life is discovered on Mars.

Seeing the drivel the DI tries wedging into school curricula across the country, at times I doubt if intelligent life exists here.

45 Steve Rogers  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:52pm

Let’s face the facts: “Creationism” and its spruced-up evolved (heh!) cousin “Intelligent Design” are 100% purely religious in origin and purpose. They are sad and pathetic attempts by uniformed people to desperately try and prove (both to themselves and to others) that the first book of the Bible (and by extension, all other books of the Bible) are 100% true.

So before we can have solid, science-based education in the U.S. that doesn’t suffer from such idiotic attempts to replace real science and real facts with the myths of a patriarchal society dating from the Iron Age, a couple of things will have to happen.

First: Republican voters and elected officials will have to come to realize that religion and morality are two separate things – a religious person can be immoral and that an unreligious person (even agnostics and atheists) can be moral.

Secondly: Republican voters and elected officials will have to realize that the government’s job is not to enforce morality.

Third: Republican voters and elected officials will have to accept that fiscal responsibility, a strong defense and the maximum amount of freedom (even for those people they don’t like or agree with) will have to be their first priorities.

Until those things happen, not only will Republican voters and elected officials continue to attack science and try and drag U.S. school children back thousands of years, but they will continue to lose elections, allowing the liberal Democrats to install the socialism and social fascism that should scare Republicans more than evolution.

46 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:34:24pm

re: #38 pjaicomo

"Evangelical athiests"? I hate that nonsensical misnomer:

...

I missed that in her article.

OK, I don't think she's misunderstanding ID or creationism. She's actually serious about this.

47 Lightspeed  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:34:56pm

re: #37 Gus 802

Exactly. Since, anything can therefore be defined as the intelligent designer since there is no explicit definition within the ID textbooks. This can be as you suggested alien beings with a capacity to create life. Or any other being for that matter.

Hmmm, that gives me another idea. I propose, under the auspices of ID, that life here on Earth was created by super-intelligent....wait for it...monkeys!

48 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:34:59pm

some of us aren't as secular as some of us.

i see extreme secularism as almost a religion in the same way that the echofreaks almost make it a religion.
i stoped being a political true believer a long time ago when i was a radical leftist and was turned off by it sort of curred me of political true believing.

49 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:35:09pm

Discovery Institute shill David "Darwin=Hitler" Klinghoffer loved Phillips' article:

[Link: blog.beliefnet.com...]

50 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:35:25pm

re: #36 HelloDare

Better chances of it being found on Titan.

51 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:35:51pm

re: #46 Gus 802

"As a result, both Creationists and many others of religious faith disdain Intelligent Design, just as ID proponents think Creationism is totally off the wall. Yet the two continue to be conflated. And ignorance is only partly responsible for the confusion, since militant evangelical atheists deliberately conflate Intelligent Design with Creationism in order to smear and discredit ID and its adherents."

52 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:36:05pm

re: #38 pjaicomo

"Evangelical athiests"? I hate that nonsensical misnomer:

WEBSTERS:
evan·gel·ic -ik
Function:
adjective
1: of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels
2: protestant
3: emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual
4 acapitalized : of or relating to the Evangelical Church in Germany boften capitalized : of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism : fundamentalist coften capitalized : low church
5: marked by militant or crusading zeal : evangelistic

Agreed, but I understand the tone. It takes a tremendous amount of Faith with a capital F to be Richard Dawkins. It's a shame, too, because he's one hell of a science writer.

53 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:36:30pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Looks like she is mostly anti-Dawkins, anti-atheists and thus looks at the whole issue from the "culture war" viewpoint. She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings.

So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

54 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:36:57pm

re: #48 yochanan

some of us aren't as secular as some of us.

i see extreme secularism as almost a religion in the same way that the echofreaks almost make it a religion.
i stoped being a political true believer a long time ago when i was a radical leftist and was turned off by it sort of curred me of political true believing.

You can see it however you like, it's not a religion.

55 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:37:27pm

re: #49 Charles

Discovery Institute shill David "Darwin=Hitler" Klinghoffer loved Phillips' article:

[Link: blog.beliefnet.com...]

Why shouldn't he? Another well known person that can be used as a shill for their grifting.

56 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:37:36pm

Sorry to go OT so soon, but Doppleganglander, are you still here?


That storm is now approaching Interstate 75 north of Atlanta! You're up in the area it's heading too, IIRC

WARNING

ALABAMA AND GEORGIA LIZARDS

If there are any Lizards or freinds / relatives of you, there are SEVERE storms including tornado sightings on the Alabama / Gerogia border. It's been ongoing for over an hour (usually they peter out somewhat, but not today)

57 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:37:39pm

re: #47 Lightspeed

Hmmm, that gives me another idea. I propose, under the auspices of ID, that life here on Earth was created by super-intelligent....wait for it...monkeys!

That doable. Would add a monkey wrench into their movement! //

58 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:38:00pm

re: #52 austin_blue

Agreed, but I understand the tone. It takes a tremendous amount of Faith with a capital F to be Richard Dawkins. It's a shame, too, because he's one hell of a science writer.

Yeah, but the purpose of using that term is to claim you are using it in the most secular sense but to actually use it with its vernacular conceptions.

59 c6gunner  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:38:18pm

re: #52 austin_blue

It takes a tremendous amount of Faith with a capital F to be Richard Dawkins. It's a shame, too, because he's one hell of a science writer.

How so?

60 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:38:36pm

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

61 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:39:36pm

re: #50 Bubblehead II

Better chances of it being found on Titan.

But will a probe ever be sent there to try and discover life? Are there any plans?

62 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:39:48pm

re: #60 yochanan

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

Mixing science and politics? I don't think you can really divorce science from politics if you want any sort of informed decision making.

63 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:39:59pm

re: #53 freetoken

Looks like she is mostly anti-Dawkins, anti-atheists and thus looks at the whole issue from the "culture war" viewpoint. She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings.

So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

Is she using a straw man there or poisoning the well?

64 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:40:33pm

re: #60 yochanan

You seem to be staying awake with the same things that keeo me awake.

65 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:40:43pm

re: #53 freetoken

Looks like she is mostly anti-Dawkins, anti-atheists and thus looks at the whole issue from the "culture war" viewpoint. She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings.

So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

Usually those who parrot the "holes in the theory" rhetoric don't know much about science, and can't cite a single hole they claim exists. They just repeat this mantra without thinking.

66 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:04pm

re: #62 pjaicomo

glogal warming is a clear case of mixing politics and science with the stress on politics I might ad.

67 NY Nana  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:09pm

re: #31 HelloDare

Did someone say the word 'duck'?

68 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:44pm

re: #61 HelloDare

Not sure. Let me check.

69 Empire1  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:53pm

re: #37 Gus 802

Exactly. Since, anything can therefore be defined as the intelligent designer since there is no explicit definition within the ID textbooks. This can be as you suggested alien beings with a capacity to create life. Or any other being for that matter.

Swipe them from Doc Smith -- use the Arisians! As a side benefit, there are the Eddorians for the demons ...

70 Lightspeed  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:42:14pm

re: #53 freetoken

She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings. So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

Then she should either educated herself or keep her mouth shut on the subject. Credibility, once lost, is not easily regained.

71 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:42:18pm

re: #42 anchors_aweigh

Smear? I was just applying logic.

I can guarantee you that if you had said what you did in #18 in front of or to the people I know who are both VERY religious and science rationalists, you would have been called on the carpet for both a smear and not thinking logically.

72 Macker  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:42:58pm

re: #0 Charles

Melanie Phillips has done good work exposing the danger of Islamic militancy in Britain, and I’ve linked many of her articles on the subject here at LGF. She’s also taken a principled stand against Eurofascist groups such as the BNP, who try to gain legitimacy by claiming to be “anti-jihad.”

But she’s simply wrong in this article. Way wrong: Creating An Insult To Intelligence.

Um...doesn't the use of the word "BUT" automatically instruct the reader to ignore everything which was said, prior to the word?

73 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:00pm

re: #69 Empire1

Swipe them from Doc Smith -- use the Arisians! As a side benefit, there are the Eddorians for the demons ...

Exactly. The list of possibilities could be endless. If one does not exist we could thus "create" another "intelligent designer."

74 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:05pm

re: #66 yochanan

Global warming is junk science in the service of political correctness.

75 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:11pm

re: #58 pjaicomo

Yeah, but the purpose of using that term is to claim you are using it in the most secular sense but to actually use it with its vernacular conceptions.

Sure. It's the same as saying "The scientific community mocks ID, but don't mock the Dawkins' of the world whose own beliefs are just as religious."

Nice little way to throw a straw man out there instead of responding to the facts of the argument.

76 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:18pm

re: #66 yochanan

glogal warming is a clear case of mixing politics and science with the stress on politics I might ad.

But that is not what you said. You said you don't believe in mixing science and politics.

You should say you don't believe in politics affecting science.

Science should always inform politics.

As for the global warming, besides Al Gore's science, what other scientists are being affected by politics?

77 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:31pm

jihadist having a rally in manhattan today worries me

78 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:44:03pm

re: #75 austin_blue

Sure. It's the same as saying "The scientific community mocks ID, but don't mock the Dawkins' of the world whose own beliefs are just as religious."

Nice little way to throw a straw man out there instead of responding to the facts of the argument.

Huh? Are you saying I am throwing out a strawman?

79 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:44:47pm

Looks like it's going to get crowded under the ID bus.

80 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:45:17pm

re: #60 yochanan

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

You don't like mixing science and politic, or science and religion, and yet what worries you is Iran, Pakistan, and al Qaeda. All three blend science and politics with religion.

81 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:45:38pm

re: #68 Bubblehead II

There was a probe sent to Titan already. The Huygens Probe.

T-Storm moving in with heavy rain and wind. Will be back after it blows over.

L8R

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:45:39pm

re: #74 MikeySDCA

Global warming is junk science in the service of political correctness.

Don't forget political power.

83 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:17pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

That too.

84 Macker  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:24pm

re: #80 FurryOldGuyJeans

You don't like mixing science and politic, or science and religion, and yet what worries you is Iran, Pakistan, and al Qaeda. All three blend science and politics with religion.

The problem is NOT Judaism or Christianity mixing these three. It is Islam.

85 Alouette  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:27pm

I started reading "The Challenge of Creation" over the weekend. Just got through the "introduction" which includes a whole bunch of disclaimers warning hard-core "Creationists" to stay away from this book, and also warns against "quote-mining." Finally the author says he is "Public Enemy #1" to people who have never read the book, just denunciations of it.

I am just finishing the first chapter, which is an overview of the philosophy of acknowledging a Designer of the Universe, while also accepting and investigating the details (evolution) of how the Universe developed.

86 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:44pm

re: #72 Macker

Um...doesn't the use of the word "BUT" automatically instruct the reader to ignore everything which was said, prior to the word?

No.

87 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:56pm

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Phillips is also a denier of evolution, the safety of vaccines, and global climate change, which sort of tells you what her opinion is worth.

He said that referring to her Wiki entry.

Despite a scientific consensus that there is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism,[27] Phillips has repeatedly questioned the safety of the vaccine,[28][29][30][31] insisting that "urgent questions about the vaccine’s safety remain unanswered".[28] Science writer and physician Ben Goldacre has called Phillips "the MMR sceptic who just doesn't understand science".[32]

Uh oh...

88 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:10pm

I feel really lucky to have been saved from my ignorance on this subject early on in the debate here at LGF. I don't understand why some people feel science and religion must be in conflict- it makes no sense to me. Studying evolution has helped me feel closer to God and his creation, not further removed. I feel sorry for people who are so insecure in their faith (because that's what it is) that they think they have to reject science. It's really sad- they are, in effect, rejecting God's work.

89 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:12pm

Everyone -

"ID" is certainly an attempt to "Scientify" creationism. Melanie, sorry to say you got this one wrong.
Perhaps my beliefs are a bit unorthodox. I believe in a creator - AND - in one wise enough, or with enough of a wicked sense of humor to leave well enough alone after the initial "bang," allowing for all that evolved wherever it did.

-S-

90 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:14pm

re: #78 pjaicomo

Huh? Are you saying I am throwing out a strawman?

No no no. People are who denigrate Dawkins et al as Evangelical Atheists are. I'm with you 100%.

91 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:52pm

re: #84 Macker

The problem is NOT Judaism or Christianity mixing these three. It is Islam.

The DI is mixing all three, and they are the believers in a very militant and narrow dogma of Christianity.

92 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:54pm

re: #84 Macker

The problem is NOT Judaism or Christianity mixing these three. It is Islam.

Wrong. It might be currently more dangerous for Islamic states, but it is always a problem.

93 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:02pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

There's also money.

94 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:04pm

re: #80 FurryOldGuyJeans

You don't like mixing science and politic, or science and religion, and yet what worries you is Iran, Pakistan, and al Qaeda. All three blend science and politics with religion.

Thye mix religion and politics, agreed,,, Add science? not so much !

95 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:28pm

re: #77 yochanan

You know what? We get it. You don't see this issue as a problem. Please stop complaining about the topic.

96 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:29pm

re: #90 austin_blue

No no no. People are who denigrate Dawkins et al as Evangelical Atheists are. I'm with you 100%.

Ok, ok. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. :)

97 Macker  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:57pm

re: #91 FurryOldGuyJeans

The DI is mixing all three, and they are the believers in a very militant and narrow dogma of Christianity.

At least we, as a Western Society, can debate that issue freely. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?

/crickets

98 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:49:29pm

re: #97 Macker

At least we, as a Western Society, can debate that issue freely. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?

/crickets

Saying something is less wrong doesn't make it right.

99 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:49:38pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

Amen

(literally and figuratively)

100 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:49:57pm
quote:

Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration.


This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

101 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:50:28pm

re: #94 sattv4u2

Thye mix religion and politics, agreed,,, Add science? not so much !

Is building Islamic nuclear bombs to be used against the Crusaders and dirty, evil Jews not a facet of science? Last time I looked nuclear science is still science.

102 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:50:39pm

Again and again religion derails reason. I heard Prager this week, he who claims "clarity is more valuable than agreement" dress down a critical caller with the old irreducibly complex argument.

103 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:11pm

re: #97 Macker

At least we, as a Western Society, can debate that issue freely. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?

/crickets

We let the DI have their way and it will all be moot.

104 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:12pm

re: #100 Ojoe

I've read dumber, but good point.

105 spacejesus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:13pm

I used to love when you could use the mouse wheel to scroll through threads like this looking for comments with lots of red negative karma and laugh at them. I miss the creationists.

where has all the fun gone?

106 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:14pm

re: #85 Alouette

I started reading "The Challenge of Creation" over the weekend. Just got through the "introduction" which includes a whole bunch of disclaimers warning hard-core "Creationists" to stay away from this book, and also warns against "quote-mining." Finally the author says he is "Public Enemy #1" to people who have never read the book, just denunciations of it.

I am just finishing the first chapter, which is an overview of the philosophy of acknowledging a Designer of the Universe, while also accepting and investigating the details (evolution) of how the Universe developed.

Here's a link to that book:

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

Looks interesting- I'll have to check it out. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :)

107 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:12pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

I feel really lucky to have been saved from my ignorance on this subject early on in the debate here at LGF. I don't understand why some people feel science and religion must be in conflict- it makes no sense to me. Studying evolution has helped me feel closer to God and his creation, not further removed. I feel sorry for people who are so insecure in their faith (because that's what it is) that they think they have to reject science. It's really sad- they are, in effect, rejecting God's work.

Up-ding.

108 zeebeach  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:13pm

re: #12 Charles

Who said anything about "tossing her under the bus?"

Am I supposed to refrain from criticizing people when they go off base, and publish articles that are drastically mistaken?

I don't think he was saying you need to "refrain from criicizing...etc". I think the point may have been that Melanie will get a pass on her (mis)understanding of ID. Why are you so touchy, Charles?

109 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:39pm

re: #104 MikeySDCA

I've read dumber, but good point.

Stupider //

110 Alouette  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:43pm

re: #106 Sharmuta

Here's a link to that book:

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

Looks interesting- I'll have to check it out. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :)

I will have to hide the book when my grandkids come over, so my daughter-in-law doesn't freak out.

111 DistantThunder  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:49pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

I feel really lucky to have been saved from my ignorance on this subject early on in the debate here at LGF. I don't understand why some people feel science and religion must be in conflict- it makes no sense to me. Studying evolution has helped me feel closer to God and his creation, not further removed. I feel sorry for people who are so insecure in their faith (because that's what it is) that they think they have to reject science. It's really sad- they are, in effect, rejecting God's work.

Exactly Sharm. It gives insight into the mind of the Creator, and reveals the genius.

112 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:04pm
113 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:07pm

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

114 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:23pm

re: #87 freetoken

Not surprising. It doesn't seem like science is her thing.

115 HoosierHoops  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:40pm

re: #105 spacejesus

I used to love when you could use the mouse wheel to scroll through threads like this looking for comments with lots of red negative karma and laugh at them. I miss the creationists.

where has all the fun gone?

Dang you Spacejesus! I almost up dinged you..Hope today find you well..

116 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:42pm

re: #106 Sharmuta

Here's a link to that book:

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

Looks interesting- I'll have to check it out. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :)

You might find Archaeology.Info interesting as well, Sharm.

117 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:45pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

Check the first few comments on the thread downstairs.

118 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:06pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

Seriously. I almost converted.

119 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:18pm

re: #101 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is building Islamic nuclear bombs to be used against the Crusaders and dirty, evil Jews not a facet of science? Last time I looked nuclear science is still science.

thats a stretch. If they used just sling shots it could be considered a "science'. Fact is either the bomb or slingshot are used to further their religious and political inclinations, NOT to further their scientific beleifes

120 Alouette  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:46pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

Charles explained the ads are served by Google Adsense, based on the frequently of words picked up by their context filter.

I have suggested that he should also run ads for JDate.

121 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:58pm

re: #102 The Shadow Do

Again and again religion derails reason. I heard Prager this week, he who claims "clarity is more valuable than agreement" dress down a critical caller with the old irreducibly complex argument.

Depends on which religion. As you well know, they aren't all the same.

122 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:55:00pm

re: #108 zeebeach

I don't think he was saying you need to "refrain from criicizing...etc". I think the point may have been that Melanie will get a pass on her (mis)understanding of ID. Why are you so touchy, Charles?

And the very fact that she (Melanie) gets a pass for saying such outrageously stupid things is exactly why this is such a touchy thing.

123 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:55:19pm

re: #34 freetoken

I get the feeling she really does believe that ID is more than just a cloak for creationism. In which case she is just severely misinformed. I'd love to see her try to respond to Charles' post.

124 DistantThunder  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:55:36pm

I thought Charles presented his critique of Melanie in a professional and considerate way.

125 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:03pm

re: #87 freetoken

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

126 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:09pm

re: #124 DistantThunder

Yes indeed.

127 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:19pm

Lots of good data at the Re-Discovery website./


link...

128 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:22pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Not surprising. It doesn't seem like science is her thing.

She sounds like she was reading Bryan Appleyard books back in the 90's, and was actually impressed by them.

129 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:50pm

re: #87 freetoken

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Uh oh...

Oh brother.

130 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:51pm

re: #125 Charles

Hang in there.

131 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:51pm

re: #124 DistantThunder

I thought Charles presented his critique of Melanie in a professional and considerate way.

Indeed.

132 MikeySDCA  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:53pm

re: #125 Charles

Some days you are probably right.

133 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:57:50pm

re: #125 Charles

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

You couldn't even get away from it by moving either, huh?
After most of the 1st 45 years of my life in Massachusetts, I thought I could escape at least SOME of the madness by moving to Atlanta area 10 years ago.

Nuh uh !

134 jvic  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:57:50pm

Phillips:

In coming to the conclusion that a governing intelligence must have been responsible for the ultimate origin of matter, Intelligent Design proponents are essentially saying there must have been a creator.

There's an enormous difference between saying that an Intelligence set off the Big Bang and saying that that Intelligence intervened on our infinitesimal speck of this. The IDers are trying to get their stuff into biology classes first, not into physics classes.

Phillips' piece is either very uninformed or very disingenuous.

135 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:57:54pm

re: #56 sattv4u2

Sorry to go OT so soon, but Doppleganglander, are you still here?

That storm is now approaching Interstate 75 north of Atlanta! You're up in the area it's heading too, IIRC

WARNING

ALABAMA AND GEORGIA LIZARDS

If there are any Lizards or freinds / relatives of you, there are SEVERE storms including tornado sightings on the Alabama / Gerogia border. It's been ongoing for over an hour (usually they peter out somewhat, but not today)

Yes, I saw when you posted on the previous thread. Thanks for the heads up.

136 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:01pm

re: #129 Gus 802

Oh brother.

This.

137 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:11pm

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

138 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:53pm

re: #119 sattv4u2

thats a stretch. If they used just sling shots it could be considered a "science'. Fact is either the bomb or slingshot are used to further their religious and political inclinations, NOT to further their scientific beleifes

USING science and scientific research is still science. Building a bomb is using science.

139 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:57pm
140 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:06pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Not surprising. It doesn't seem like science is her thing.

Well.... yes... and that is hardly a morally damnable thing. Yet, in her non-science, she writes articles that tend to be a bit too familiar sounding... as if she is being fed talking points from the anti-scientists.

141 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:19pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

We know. Just don't mention gonorhhrea, syphilis, chlamydia, boils, or prolapsed rectums.

142 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:24pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

Why? He doesn't beleive the earth was created 6,00 years ago !?!?!

143 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:33pm

OT ... But this is an outstanding column from the great Victor Davis Hanson:

[Link: victorhanson.com...]

He has a way of cutting through the BS that is matched only by Charles Krauthammer.

144 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:41pm

re: #121 Soona'

Depends on which religion. As you well know, they aren't all the same.

No, but if you are didactic in your faith and literal in your interpretations then you are probably a strong candidate for foolishness regardless of your religious branding.

145 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:00pm

re: #112 buzzsawmonkey

What Phillips' observation shows most plainly is that many people, even many intelligent and educated people, do not "get" science, no matter how much they may be aware how much they owe to it, and rely upon it.

By the same measure they do not "get" Christianity.

146 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:16pm

re: #87 freetoken

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Uh oh...

Gawd. She's more of an idiot than I thought.

147 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:24pm

re: #129 Gus 802

Oh brother.

Remember... DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.

/whew

148 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:38pm

re: #138 FurryOldGuyJeans

USING science and scientific research is still science. Building a bomb is using science.

sigh,.,,,, Are they using the BOMB to FURTHER their scientific beleif?

149 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:45pm

re: #50 Bubblehead II
Europa.
Didn't you see 2010?

150 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:51pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

Medved on Intelligent Design: It's Not a Theory

151 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:01:42pm

re: #134 jvic

There's an enormous difference between saying that an Intelligence set off the Big Bang and saying that that Intelligence intervened on our infinitesimal speck of this. The IDers are trying to get their stuff into biology classes first, not into physics classes.

Phillips' piece is either very uninformed or very disingenuous.

This is why the Catholic Church, for one example, has come out and stated that ID isn't just bad science, but also bad theology.

152 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:02:17pm

re: #147 freetoken

Remember... DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.

/whew

I won't. I was saying "oh brother" about her. I'm not anything like a devout fan of her by any means. Read her stuff a few times here and there but never encountered this anti-science aspect of hers.

153 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:02:49pm

re: #40 austin_blue

Yet he will never admit that human mitochondria are incorporated bacterium.

Odd, isn't it?

ALL animal mitochondria. Not to mention all plant chloroplasts.

154 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:03:23pm

re: #145 Ojoe

By the same measure they do not "get" Christianity.

Indeed.

155 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:03:44pm

re: #125 Charles

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

All too easy to reject other sciences when once you start down the path by rejecting one.

156 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:03:46pm

re: #41 MikeySDCA

ID is of course the argument from design of Descartes as a proof of the existence of God. The argument is circular, as Immanuel Kant showed.

Actually, the argument from design was most succinctly put forward by William Paley, in 1802.

157 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:04:40pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

Why? He doesn't beleive the earth was created 6,00 years ago !?!?!

He is a "Senior Fellow" at the Discovery Institute. I didn't even realize this until one day recently, I heard him mention he would be speaking at a DI event. He does claim not to "agree" with them "on every issue", but I'm unclear what that means at this point.

158 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:05:21pm

re: #144 The Shadow Do

No, but if you are didactic in your faith and literal in your interpretations then you are probably a strong candidate for foolishness regardless of your religious branding.

My immediate family is hard-shell southern Baptist. But every one of them believe in the evolution of God's creation.

159 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:06:14pm

re: #54 pjaicomo

You can see it however you like, it's not a religion.

Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hairstyle.

160 Liberal Classic  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:06:16pm

re: #74 MikeySDCA

Global warming is junk science in the service of political correctness.

I disagree. The science behind climate change is sound. I will agree that the political solutions offered to combat global warming are misguided at best, but that does not change the fact that releasing large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere will it more opaque at infrared wavelengths thus increasing the greenhouse effect.

Global warming theory is no more junk than evolutionary theory.

161 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:06:17pm

re: #150 Charles

Medved on Intelligent Design: It's Not a Theory

Thank you. I think I missed that thread, but I'll read it now.

162 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:07pm

re: #159 Salamantis

Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hairstyle.

Haha, I wear both proudly.

163 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:24pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

Jim in VA -

Bet she would be even better looking without that "tea towel" on her head. Look at some pictures published by Michael J. Totten of women in Lebanon and Kosovo and I think you will agree.

-S-

164 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:30pm

re: #105 spacejesus

I used to love when you could use the mouse wheel to scroll through threads like this looking for comments with lots of red negative karma and laugh at them. I miss the creationists.

where has all the fun gone?

Yeah, it's been too long since we saw the immortal words "I am not a creationist and I love this website but I have to say...."

165 HoosierHoops  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:45pm

Hi Lizards! Dr. Pamela Gay's Astronomy Twitters has gone off the chart..
Really some world class scientists over there...
[Link: www.starstryder.com...]

166 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:49pm

re: #60 yochanan

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

But mixing them is precisely what the people pushing to have cretionism/ID taught in public schools are doing.

167 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:52pm

re: #153 Salamantis

ALL animal mitochondria. Not to mention all plant chloroplasts.

Yup. The little engines that DO, with their own set of genetic material separate from the larger host into which they have been incorporated.

168 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:08:11pm

re: #81 Bubblehead II

There was a probe sent to Titan already. The Huygens Probe.

Thanks for the link.

The HASI subsystem also contains a microphone, which was used to record any acoustic events during probe's descent and landing;[3] this was the first time in history that audible sounds from another planetary body had been recorded.
169 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:08:59pm

re: #71 FurryOldGuyJeans

I can guarantee you that if you had said what you did in #18 in front of or to the people I know who are both VERY religious and science rationalists, you would have been called on the carpet for both a smear and not thinking logically.

Did you read the article? Charles asked a rhetorical question about how Ms. Phillips came to write the article.

I just speculated on the reason Ms. Phillips wrote the article.

It's been my experience that people who believe (and therefore feel compelled to defend the belief by writing) in Creationism, ID, Creationism-ID, creator, supreme being, G-d, Allah tend to be, religious.

How is that illogical?

170 Alouette  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:09:20pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

I put Michael Medved in the same category as David Klinghoffer, but that's just me.

171 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:09:37pm

re: #164 Jimmah

Yeah, it's been too long since we saw the immortal words "I am not a creationist and I love this website but I have to say...."

The problem is that they all seem to eventually freak out, post insults, tell me I'm doomed to hell, and get blocked.

172 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:10:37pm

re: #87 freetoken

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Uh oh...

And now Mrs. Phillips I am offended:

"...this financial breakdown, moreover, as being not merely a moral crisis but the monetary expression of the broader degradation of our values - the erosion of duty and responsibility to others in favour of instant gratification, unlimited demands repackaged as 'rights' and the loss of self-discipline. And the root cause of that erosion is 'militant atheism' ...."


Uh oh... no it's: Oh shit!

173 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:10:47pm

re: #148 sattv4u2

sigh,.,,,, Are they using the BOMB to FURTHER their scientific beleif?

I am just seeing and saying things from a different perspective. The radical Islamists and Jihadis are using the fruits of science to further their religious and political aims. Just as "the West" does. The DI is using modern technology for religious and political ends.

174 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:13pm

re: #171 Charles

The problem is that they all seem to eventually freak out, post insults, tell me I'm doomed to hell, and get blocked.

Haha.

LGF FAQ:

#137: Damnation of Charles' immortal soul is an immediate banishment.

175 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:18pm

re: #160 Liberal Classic

I disagree. The science behind climate change is sound. I will agree that the political solutions offered to combat global warming are misguided at best, but that does not change the fact that releasing large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere will it more opaque at infrared wavelengths thus increasing the greenhouse effect.

Global warming theory is no more junk than evolutionary theory.

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

176 paint-right  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:39pm

re: #139 buzzsawmonkey

Religion is not supposed to deal with reason. Religion exists to address that large portion of the human psyche which is non-rational. Properly sequestered from each other, the rational and the non-rational parts of the human makeup both flourish and complement each other, but they must be kept separate to do so.

I disagree. My religion ( can't speak for the others) is practical, rational and makes a lot of sense. Yes, it addresses emotional and psychical areas as well as rational thought and discourse, but reason does not have to be suspended to believe.

IMHO

177 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:44pm

re: #170 Alouette

I put Michael Medved in the same category as David Klinghoffer, but that's just me.

Lady- you crack me up.

178 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:51pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

What is your point here?

179 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:13:23pm

OT ,, this is surreal

I have no idea what/ why yet, but for a client I'm taking in a satellite feed. Warren Buffet is sitting at a 4 person table with lots of othre 4 person tables around him playing cards (looks like bridge) in a malls food court.

just sayin!

180 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:13:37pm

re: #172 callahan23

Uh oh... no it's: Oh shit!

Reading list:

Michael Medved
Melanie Phillips

181 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:14:34pm

re: #143 _RememberTonyC

OT ... But this is an outstanding column from the great Victor Davis Hanson:

[Link: victorhanson.com...]

He has a way of cutting through the BS that is matched only by Charles Krauthammer.


Krauthammer:
Phony Theory, False Conflict
'Intelligent Design' Foolishly Pits Evolution Against Faith

182 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:15:26pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

He IS a fellow at the Disco Institute...

/just sayin'...

183 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:15:36pm

re: #180 Gus 802

Reading list:

Michael Medved
Melanie Phillips

I still read Medved, I just recognize there is a bias there.

184 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:16:20pm

re: #182 Salamantis

He IS a fellow at the Disco Institute...

/just sayin'...

I have heard that is the case, is there a link you have handy for it?

185 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:17:17pm

re: #183 FurryOldGuyJeans

I still read Medved, I just recognize there is a bias there.

Right. I have to admit he does make good arguments on other issues from time to time. Just thought my list would look empty with just Melanie Phillips. ;)

186 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:17:22pm

re: #171 Charles

Yep. They're an uncivil as well as a deeply dishonest bunch.

187 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:18:34pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

"Liberal Classic" is exactly right - it's completely non-controversial to say that increasing the CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere will cause the average temperature to rise. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and there's no serious scientist anywhere who denies this.

It's not a "hoax."

188 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:18:36pm
189 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:19:12pm

re: #171 Charles

The problem is that they all seem to eventually freak out, post insults, tell me I'm doomed to hell, and get blocked.

But they do provide a bit of entertainment and a respite from boredom for the few moments of their meltdown.

190 Liberal Classic  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:19:15pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

I'm sorry, but what?

After water vapor, carbon dioxide is the single most important greenhouse gas. It accounts for about 10-20% of all the energy absorbed by the atmosphere even though it only comprises less than 1% of the atmosphere. A small increase in the the amount of atmospheric carbon dioxide will, over time, have an effect on the climate -- and we're releasing gigatons of it annually.

As I've said, I don't believe in the efficacy and wisdom of the political solutions offered to counter the problem. But this is not the same thing as saying the problem doesn't exist, or is a hoax.

191 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:19:51pm

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

Moreover, since science essentially takes us wherever the evidence leads, the findings of more than 50 years of DNA research - which have revealed the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life - have thrown into doubt the theory that life emerged spontaneously in a random universe.

These findings have given rise to a school of scientists promoting the theory of Intelligent Design, which suggests that some force embodying purpose and foresight lay behind the origin of the universe.

While this theory is, of course, open to vigorous counter-argument, people such as Prof Dawkins and others have gone to great lengths to stop it being advanced at all, on the grounds that it denies scientific evidence such as the fossil record and is therefore worthless.

Yet distinguished scientists have been hounded and their careers jeopardised for arguing that the fossil record has got a giant hole in it. Some 570 million years ago, in a period known as the Cambrian Explosion, most forms of complex animal life emerged seemingly without any evolutionary trail.

These scientists argue that only 'rational agents' could have possessed the ability to design and organise such complex systems.

Whether or not they are right (and I don't know), their scientific argument about the absence of evidence to support the claim that life spontaneously created itself is being stifled - on the totally perverse grounds that this argument does not conform to the rules of science which require evidence to support a theory.

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

192 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:20:29pm

I'm back. Lots of noise, wind and rain, but no good discharges/stikes.

193 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:20:46pm

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

194 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:17pm
195 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:19pm

re: #193 freetoken

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

Deflection.

196 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:21pm

re: #184 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have heard that is the case, is there a link you have handy for it?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

197 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:29pm

re: #193 freetoken

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

Interesting, isn't it?

198 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:34pm

re: #179 sattv4u2

OT ,, this is surreal

I have no idea what/ why yet, but for a client I'm taking in a satellite feed. Warren Buffet is sitting at a 4 person table with lots of othre 4 person tables around him playing cards (looks like bridge) in a malls food court.

just sayin!

UPDATE

Buffett is now drinking what looks like a Coke out of a clear plastic cup!

(hey ,, so sue me,,, i've been here at work alone for 8 1/2 hours and have another 3 1/2 to go !)

199 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:43pm

re: #191 freetoken

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

Not really, she might have arrived at these conclusions independently. Only time will tell.

200 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:43pm

re: #190 Liberal Classic

Well I think it is better to say "effect" than "problem"; perhaps we are staving off the next ice age, and perhaps temporarily at that.

I have never seen a scientific argument that the Earth has gotten out of its recent (geological) condition of repeating ice ages.

Which maybe were brought on by having too much sequestered carbon.

201 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:48pm

re: #196 Salamantis

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I thank you, sir. The links I had become 404 fodder.

202 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:51pm
203 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:54pm

By the way:
re: #88 Sharmuta
re: #112 buzzsawmonkey
Green hearted those two. Instant classics for me.

204 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:23:20pm

The only thing Phillips said I agreed with was this:

The confusion arises partly out of ignorance, with people lazily confusing belief in a Creator with Creationism.

That's true- many people here on LGF have called themselves "Creationists" because they believe in God as a creator, but they would go on to say they accept the veracity of evolution. Creationists reject evolution, but this doesn't stop some people from wanting to be called something they're not anyways.

I didn't appreciate Phillips' title, "Creating An Insult To Intelligence". What's insulting to intelligence is rejecting empirical data that has been collected for 150 years now and that completely validates Darwin and his theory.

205 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:23:31pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

I think climatology is where evolution was in the 50's. The data looks good. The models are a work in progress, but generally confirm theory. Evolution didn't get really solid across the board until regressive gene sequencing became the engine that confirmed the overarching theory. It's hard to argue with all that gattaca, but the DI still does, or tries to. It's a losing proposition for them. We'll see what happens with AGW.

206 paint-right  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:24:10pm

re: #188 buzzsawmonkey

Ok I get what is on the "non -rational side" what is left on the other?

the lab?

You also obviously see 'religion" as a development or construct of human need, with no external reality or proveability.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:24:15pm

UPDATE #2

Bill Gates is now in the seat across from Buffett!

209 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:24:22pm

re: #202 buzzsawmonkey

Speaking of which, just how long is Will Tell's overture?

Long enough to put me to sleep. ;)

210 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:11pm

re: #193 freetoken

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

And eventually to Hitler.

211 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:13pm

re: #206 paint-right

Ok I get what is on the "non -rational side" what is left on the other?

the lab?

You also obviously see 'religion" as a development or construct of human need, with no external reality or proveability.

It definitionally CANNOT have an external provability, and, thus, from a rationalist standpoint, it cannot be observe as reality.

212 rightymouse  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:13pm

I'll give Melanie the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. The terms 'creationism' and 'intelligent design' were very confusing to me at first. I did not realize that they were tied to young earthers and those who believe that all living things were created in their current form. Am a Christian, but definitely NOT a young earther - mostly because I'm not a Biblical literalist. Can't be. Dad was a Biblical translator and told me things that would make many literalists cringe. Doesn't change our basic faith in G-d. Just keeps things in perspective.

213 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:18pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Bigfoot posts here sometimes.

BBL

214 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:23pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Michael Medved believes there is "persuasive evidence for Bigfoot."

Which gives even more persuasive evidence there is a brain missing.

215 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:26:05pm

re: #210 HelloDare

And eventually to Hitler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

216 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:26:24pm

re: #212 rightymouse

Read freetoken's comments on this thread, and you might change your mind.

217 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:26:49pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Michael Medved believes there is "persuasive evidence for Bigfoot."

Harry and the Henderson's isn't a documentary, damn.

218 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:27:33pm

re: #178 pjaicomo

What is your point here?

There is not a majority opionion, as the data is studied, of scientists that are convince that gw is even happening. Moreover, the number of scientists that believe we're going into a period of global cooling is growing. There are too many variables to measure to get a complete picture of exactly how the climate operates. Plus, as I was pointing out, there's really no firm knowledge as to how much volcanoes and other geological events affect the atmosphere. One of the biggies that have been pointed out in many rebuttals of the computor models used is that they do not include the effects of the sun on the planet.

219 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:27:33pm

BTW, that last link I got from a Myers article that was referencing a Dawkins article, and apparently there is ascribed to Ms. Phillips as part of her on-going war against Dawkins.

One thing I've noticed is that some writers have articles that don't obviously come up on a Google search, yet can be found indirectly. Google, for all of its power, could use some fine tuning.

220 FamHistoryGuy  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:27:53pm

re: #187 Charles

Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get.

221 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:28:28pm

re: #217 DEZes

Harry and the Henderson's isn't a documentary, damn.

What about that new movie about a Middle Eastern camelswine flu?

/The Swinedromedary Strain

222 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:28:49pm

re: #217 DEZes

Harry and the Henderson's isn't a documentary, damn.

Medved does not, I repeat, does not believe in Crocoduck.

223 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:28:50pm

re: #191 freetoken

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

She's probably there already. Was looking at this:

These scientists argue that only 'rational agents' could have possessed the ability to design and organise such complex systems.

Whether or not they are right (and I don't know), their scientific argument about the absence of evidence to support the claim that life spontaneously created itself is being stifled - on the totally perverse grounds that this argument does not conform to the rules of science which require evidence to support a theory.

Where in the world did she pick up "rational agents" as being what caused the "organization and design" of biological forms? Does she consider science as being merely a rational agent? Does she want to study astronomy based on irrational agents or perhaps astrology? Then she goes on to say that they are being opposed on perverse grounds -- which means she considers science perverse.

224 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:29:22pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

UPDATE #2

Bill Gates is now in the seat across from Buffett!

So Bill Gates and Warren Buffet play bridge at the mall? Do you think they have a regular foursome with Alan Greenspan and Steve Jobs, or is it just a pick-up game?

BTW, it's pouring in Cobb County. I got the dog walked just in time, but Mr. Doppel got caught in the rain while running. He enjoyed it, though.

225 paint-right  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:31:01pm

re: #211 pjaicomo

It definitionally CANNOT have an external provability, and, thus, from a rationalist standpoint, it cannot be observe as reality.

Well, I disagree , but I can't prove it. LOL

226 Liberal Classic  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:31:11pm

re: #200 Ojoe

Well I think it is better to say "effect" than "problem"; perhaps we are staving off the next ice age, and perhaps temporarily at that.

I have never seen a scientific argument that the Earth has gotten out of its recent (geological) condition of repeating ice ages.

Which maybe were brought on by having too much sequestered carbon.


This is an interesting speculation. We're in an interglacial period now. Will the earth experience another period of glaciation, or leave glaciation all together? No one really knows.

The politicians are (as usual) asking the wrong question. They're asking "how do we stop global warming?" The real question IMO is how will human civilization cope with climate change. It's either going to be rising seas or glaciers.

227 LemonJoose  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:14pm

I am all for keeping ID out of secondary school classrooms as long as there is not enough evidence to make it worthy of discussion in that setting as an alternative scientific theory. I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

The intricacy and elegance of many biological systems and features is indeed amazing. Asking questions about the gaps and unexplained jumps in the evolution of these complex systems is how we will fill in our knowledge gaps with real scientific knowledge, and not simply remain content with assumptions of "unknown evolutionary process not yet explained" as a convenient, lazy way to blanket over our ignorance.

228 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:22pm

re: #224 doppelganglander

So Bill Gates and Warren Buffet play bridge at the mall? Do you think they have a regular foursome with Alan Greenspan and Steve Jobs, or is it just a pick-up game?

BTW, it's pouring in Cobb County. I got the dog walked just in time, but Mr. Doppel got caught in the rain while running. He enjoyed it, though.

Not raining at all here near Emory, although 20 minutes ago it was only "partly" cloudy, now 100% cloud cover.

I'm trying to find out what mall they're at

(((God,, I need to get a hobby !)))

229 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:27pm

re: #191 freetoken

I see she is another one who finds it necessary to whinily describe criticism as 'bashing'.

230 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:33pm

re: #187 Charles

"Liberal Classic" is exactly right - it's completely non-controversial to say that increasing the CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere will cause the average temperature to rise. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and there's no serious scientist anywhere who denies this.

It's not a "hoax."

Again, I'm not discrediting the fact that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. I'm taking his comment as a whole. The impression that was left with me was that global warming is a fact, when it isn't.

231 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:33:36pm

re: #225 paint-right

Well, I disagree , but I can't prove it. LOL

We can happily settle on that. :)

232 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:33:57pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

Which "gaps and flaws" are those?

233 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:34:17pm

re: #222 HelloDare

Medved does not, I repeat, does not believe in Crocoduck.

WTH, It must be related to T-rex.
And instead of quaking it sounds like a garage disposal.
Bigfoot was ll the rage in the 70's.
Medved has some sound financial advice, but 3 legs do not make a good rocker.

234 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:06pm

re: #228 sattv4u2

Not raining at all here near Emory, although 20 minutes ago it was only "partly" cloudy, now 100% cloud cover.

I'm trying to find out what mall they're at

(((God,, I need to get a hobby !)))

It's moving pretty fast. I give it less than an hour to reach you.

Maybe it's not bridge. Maybe they're preparing for the World Series of Poker. Let me know if you see a guy with a hoodie and sunglasses.

235 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:43pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

Newsflash: Scientists already know how to do science and don't need your 'advice'.

236 rightymouse  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:51pm

re: #216 Sharmuta

Read freetoken's comments on this thread, and you might change your mind.

It's very difficult at first, to some, that the world was not created in its perfect form 6000 years ago or whatever and has never changed. It's also difficult for many to think that perhaps there was a supreme being involved in the beginning many gazillion years ago.

237 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:54pm
238 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:36:53pm

Man, I am going to become more active on LGF. There is way more going on that on my normal vinyl board haunt.

239 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:12pm

re: #229 Jimmah

I see she is another one who finds it necessary to whinily describe criticism as 'bashing'.

Now that is a very unfair characterization, and I'm going to have a hissy fit and temper tantrum just to prove it. ;)

240 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:19pm

re: #125 Charles

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

As far as I am concerned this whole ID notion is pure crap. In my opinion it is a contrived attempt of the religious to reconcile the inherently irreconcilable contradiction between religion and science.

Although I will defend to the death the right of others to follow any religion they want, I personally believe "God" (Allah, Christ, Yaweh, whatever) is a man made artifice designed to comfort those scared of the dark.

We are specks of Carbon floating in an eternal void. There is no one watching. Deal with it.

241 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:25pm

re: #191 freetoken

Funny thing about that article (linked in the entry to which this is a reply), the Daily Mail refuses to add the by-line (of "Melanie Phillips") to it. Now, I may be wrongly crediting it to her, but one of the comments to that article directly addresses Ms. Phillips as the author, and Myers/Dawkins act like it is her. So I will say I am only 99% that it is her writing...

/just dotting my i's and crossing my t's....

242 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:30pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

I am all for keeping ID out of secondary school classrooms as long as there is not enough evidence to make it worthy of discussion in that setting as an alternative scientific theory. I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

The intricacy and elegance of many biological systems and features is indeed amazing. Asking questions about the gaps and unexplained jumps in the evolution of these complex systems is how we will fill in our knowledge gaps with real scientific knowledge, and not simply remain content with assumptions of "unknown evolutionary process not yet explained" as a convenient, lazy way to blanket over our ignorance.

Anyone who is able to empirically disprove the central tenets of evolution (random genetic mutation, nonrandom environmental selection) is guaranteed a tenured position at an Ivy League institution, fat research grants for life, a bestselling book, and a prominent mention in the history of science.

Yet after 150 years of trying, no one on the scientific merry go round has yet been able to grasp that brass platinum ring. Perhaps because it isn't there to be grasped.

243 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:32pm

re: #232 Charles

Which "gaps and flaws" are those?

The "missing link"?

244 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:04pm

re: #243 Soona'

The "missing link"?

Hahahaha

245 judithet  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:13pm

I like Melanie Phillips and I read her regularly but she was lividly, virulently, supportive of the expulsion from Gaza--and very nasty with her critics. Apparently, all that is necessary to convince her about any position is to put "intelligent" in front of it and she buys it.

246 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:16pm
247 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:29pm

Also, Ms. Phillips really does have a long history on the MMR ---> autism stuff. She appears to have been one of the major popularizers of it in the UK.

248 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:29pm

re: #243 Soona'

The "missing link"?

What about me?

249 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:03pm

we know what we know we don't know what we don't know.

250 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:07pm

re: #236 rightymouse

It's very difficult at first, to some, that the world was not created in its perfect form 6000 years ago or whatever and has never changed. It's also difficult for many to think that perhaps there was a supreme being involved in the beginning many gazillion years ago.

I agree- but she has a long history of this. I still respect her work concerning the islamization of the UK, but when it comes to science, she has no credibility.

251 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:30pm

re: #246 buzzsawmonkey

There's a missing lynx? Can't those damn zoos lock their cages?

I thought she(?) was talking about that extra link sausage I stole at breakfast this morning. ;)

252 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:42pm

re: #248 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me?

Your not missing. ;)

253 nyc redneck  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:44pm

i disagree w/ her totally on this
but i look at all the other important work she has done.
i respect her immensely.
she us a strong and courageous voice against the onslaught of islamic jihad.
(i am curious abt. her take on creationism but it is not a deal breaker for me)

254 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:47pm

re: #246 buzzsawmonkey

There's a missing lynx? Can't those damn zoos lock their cages?

I don't know, but there's a cougar on the loose in Florida. Keep your sons indoors.

255 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:57pm

re: #249 yochanan

we know what we know we don't know what we don't know.

Well, there are also things we know we don't know.

256 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:59pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

I am all for keeping ID out of secondary school classrooms as long as there is not enough evidence to make it worthy of discussion in that setting as an alternative scientific theory. I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

The intricacy and elegance of many biological systems and features is indeed amazing. Asking questions about the gaps and unexplained jumps in the evolution of these complex systems is how we will fill in our knowledge gaps with real scientific knowledge, and not simply remain content with assumptions of "unknown evolutionary process not yet explained" as a convenient, lazy way to blanket over our ignorance.

If a scientist sees a gap or flaw in the science their job isn't to merely voice an opinion. It has to be presented in an organized manner and presented as a scientific paper backed with hard science and data which is then presented for peer review. As long as their method and reasoning fits within the parameters of accepted science and methods they are not branded as zealots. If however they see a gap or flaw based on magical thinking then their career is at risk since magical thinking is not a part of science.

257 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:40:24pm

re: #252 DEZes

Your not missing. ;)

I'm not? Well, damn! ;)

258 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:40:29pm

re: #254 doppelganglander

I don't know, but there's a cougar on the loose in Florida. Keep your sons indoors.

I will keep my eyes peeled in Gainesville.

259 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:41:14pm

re: #255 pjaicomo

Well, there are also things we know we don't know.

And there are other things we don't know we know.

/ is anyone else getting a headache?

260 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:41:15pm

re: #257 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm not? Well, damn! ;)

Did you mention sausage. mmmmmmm.

261 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:41:43pm

re: #218 Soona'

There is not a majority opionion, as the data is studied, of scientists that are convince that gw is even happening. Moreover, the number of scientists that believe we're going into a period of global cooling is growing. There are too many variables to measure to get a complete picture of exactly how the climate operates. Plus, as I was pointing out, there's really no firm knowledge as to how much volcanoes and other geological events affect the atmosphere. One of the biggies that have been pointed out in many rebuttals of the computor models used is that they do not include the effects of the sun on the planet.

Hey, Soona', check this out:

[Link: cce.890m.com...]

It's a great primer for the state of the science and the associated debate. I think you will find that some of your statements aren't grounded in fact. This guide is heavily researched and every position is footnoted. Good stuff!

262 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:42:55pm

re: #260 DEZes

Did you mention sausage. mmmmmmm.

Hashbrowns, eggs, sausage, and toast. Yeah, I did mention it in passing. ;)

263 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:43:25pm

re: #262 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hashbrowns, eggs, sausage, and toast. Yeah, I did mention it in passing. ;)

Breakfast is overrated. Just sayin'.

264 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:43:31pm

re: #262 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hashbrowns, eggs, sausage, and toast. Yeah, I did mention it in passing. ;)

It's suppertime, but I am suddenly hungry for breakfast.

265 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:13pm

re: #258 pjaicomo

i thought cougars were past getting preg?

266 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:29pm
267 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:37pm

re: #248 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me?

Let me see now. Yeah, you might just be what Darwin and all the other paeleontologists were looking for. Okay. That's one mystery that's been solved.

268 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:50pm

re: #264 reine.de.tout

It's suppertime, but I am suddenly hungry for breakfast.

We have breakfast for dinner every now and then. Pancakes or waffles, scrambled eggs, bacon or sausage -- mmm.

269 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:50pm

re: #265 yochanan

i thought cougars were past getting preg?

Well, if she is already pregnant, I am definitely not going to have to worry about it.

270 Jimmah  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:59pm

Off to play 'Call of Cthulthu' for a while. Got some business to take care of in Innsbrook. BBL

271 rightymouse  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:45:08pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

I agree- but she has a long history of this. I still respect her work concerning the islamization of the UK, but when it comes to science, she has no credibility.

I'll bow to those who have read her the most.

In the meantime, it's dinner time here at Chez mousey. So I'm going to nosh on steak. :)

272 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:45:17pm

re: #264 reine.de.tout

It's suppertime, but I am suddenly hungry for breakfast.

I usually eat what I want when I want. Many a time have I had what people consider breakfast food for supper, and dining food for to break my fast. Lunch is, well, whatever. ;)

273 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:45:51pm

I love having breakfast for dinner.

274 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:12pm

Melanie Melanie Melanie, we love you -- or used to love you, until we saw this column yesterday -- but you have got to drop this "intelligent design" insanity as soon as you possibly can. You've apparently been misled, and you think that you're taking the "conservative" position or the "skeptics" position by denying evolution. But all you're doing is taking the fool's position, and it is a tragedy to watch.

Evolution is not a conservative/liberal issue: It's simply basic science. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

If you think that "intelligent design" is in any way scientifically defensible, you obviously don't even know what evolutionary theory even is.

Please, please, i beg of you to study up on this issue before writing about it again. And if you really want to become a heroine, retract the embarrassing statements you made in this column. Otherwise, you risk losing millions of fans and, more importantly, your credibility.

275 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:12pm

re: #267 Soona'

Let me see now. Yeah, you might just be what Darwin and all the other paeleontologists were looking for. Okay. That's one mystery that's been solved.

Yeah, but so many other questions would be asked about me as well. I am a mystery even to myself.

276 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:13pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

Not at 4AM after a lengthy tour of the nightspots, it ain't.

Are you currently in Moscow that it's 4am for you?

277 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:26pm

Off to study. Torts exam on wednesday.

278 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:09pm

re: #251 FurryOldGuyJeans

I thought she(?) was talking about that extra link sausage I stole at breakfast this morning. ;)

He. I'm a he. (sheesh)

279 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:10pm

re: #267 Soona'

Let me see now. Yeah, you might just be what Darwin and all the other paeleontologists were looking for. Okay. That's one mystery that's been solved.

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

280 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:17pm
281 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:41pm

re: #246 buzzsawmonkey

I don't know about any missing lynx, but there is a missing cougar in Florida

282 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:48:59pm

re: #274 zombie

Science asks people to THINK, Creationism demands people to BELIEVE.

283 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:49:27pm

re: #281 Bubblehead II

I don't know about any missing lynx, but there is a missing cougar in Florida

I am not in FLA, I tell ya!

284 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:49:57pm

re: #280 buzzsawmonkey

No, just remembering my misspent youth.

I am still spending mine. ;)

285 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:00pm

re: #255 pjaicomo

Well, there are also things we know we don't know.

Known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

286 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:05pm

re: #274 zombie

Melanie Melanie Melanie, we love you -- or used to love you, until we saw this column yesterday -- but you have got to drop this "intelligent design" insanity as soon as you possibly can. You've apparently been misled, and you think that you're taking the "conservative" position or the "skeptics" position by denying evolution. But all you're doing is taking the fool's position, and it is a tragedy to watch.

Evolution is not a conservative/liberal issue: It's simply basic science. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

If you think that "intelligent design" is in any way scientifically defensible, you obviously don't even know what evolutionary theory even is.

Please, please, i beg of you to study up on this issue before writing about it again. And if you really want to become a heroine, retract the embarrassing statements you made in this column. Otherwise, you risk losing millions of fans and, more importantly, your credibility.

Many religious jews don't believe in evolution. If you believe in the Torah, you can't believe in evolution, they are mutually exclusive.

287 brookly red  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:42pm

re: #285 Jim in Virginia

Known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

maybe.

288 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:44pm

re: #282 FurryOldGuyJeans

Science asks people to THINK, Creationism demands people to BELIEVE.

Science has to do with what one derives from the PRESENCE of empirical evidence; religion has to do with what one embraces in its ABSENCE.

289 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:48pm

re: #279 Salamantis

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

The fruitfly?

290 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:14pm

re: #286 onepistoffyid

Many religious jews don't believe in evolution. If you believe in the Torah, you can't believe in evolution, they are mutually exclusive.

Fine by me. Religious people can have whatever beliefs they want.

Just don't try to pass it off as science.

291 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:30pm

re: #280 buzzsawmonkey

No, just remembering my misspent youth.

Ah those times! I'll try to relive some of that again when I am free of matrimonial bonds.

292 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:35pm

Stealth dinger going to town.

293 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:38pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

Any gaps or flaws in a theory are at least normal.
Dinosaurs are for the most part a recent discovery, Darwin never had the chance to study them, but that does not prove his theory wrong or show flaws.
Are there missing links, well yes. A billion or so years is gonna cover cover up a whole lot of unknown and undiscovered life.
Nature has a way of hiding its past, not out of spite, just with change.

294 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:08pm

re: #288 Salamantis

Science has to do with what one derives from the PRESENCE of empirical evidence; religion has to do with what one embraces in its ABSENCE.

Exactamudo.

295 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:22pm

re: #279 Salamantis

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

The one thing I have always wondered, though, is if we are so close to chimpanzees genetically, then why has there never been a strain of chimp flu that runs rampant through the human population, having to exclude the closer contact pigs have with humans on average.

296 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:25pm
297 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:36pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

I would sure like to catch those characters in a dark room with a clue bat.

298 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:07pm

people aren't all or nothing none of us are. if you think people have to be good luck with that one.

299 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:12pm

re: #288 Salamantis

Science has to do with what one derives from the PRESENCE of empirical evidence; religion has to do with what one embraces in its ABSENCE.

I just said it differently. ;)

300 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:17pm

re: #279 Salamantis

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

I can see it now: intelligent design "scientists" refuting retroviral science and taking on the human genome project. We all await to see their "scientific" paper regarding these matters. //

301 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:17pm

re: #285 Jim in Virginia

Known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

Good old Rumsfeld; he always had a way with the press...

/with a proper course of action in Iraq, not so much...

302 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:26pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Got a NIC and thread?

303 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:28pm

re: #297 pingjockey

I would sure like to catch those characters in a dark room with a clue bat.

This one has made exactly zero comments.

304 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:29pm

re: #274 zombie

Melanie Melanie Melanie, we love you -- or used to love you, until we saw this column yesterday -- but you have got to drop this "intelligent design" insanity as soon as you possibly can.

This is not a new obsession of hers.

From 2007: Losing faith in reason

In suggesting that life sprang into existence without any kind of governing intelligence, they fly in the face of the evidence emerging from science that the hitherto unimaginable complexity of life forms, including the living cell, makes it scientifically impossible for life to have emerged without some kind of intelligent design.

Nevertheless, the Dawkins-ites are lionised as apostles of reason. Meanwhile, those scientists who are doing what scientists are supposed to do — follow where the evidence leads them — and who have concluded as a result that life was created by a guiding intelligence, are hysterically smeared by the Dawkins camp.

/Are we sure the woman isn't one of DI's scholars?

305 LemonJoose  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:34pm

re: #232 Charles

Which "gaps and flaws" are those?

There are billions of years of evolutionary changes that we weren't around to observe. If we were able to fill in those information gaps (e.g. with new fossil discoveries or even laboratory experiments) we would increase our knowledge of how these changes occurred. Ask any paleontologist or evolutionary biologist if there are things that they wish they had more data points about because it would help explain the currently unexplained and in the process as a nice bonus it might help shut the creationists up.

306 Iron Fist  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:36pm

re: #230 Soona'

Climate change is real enough, but that isn't really the issue. The climate is always changing. It has been changing for litterally billions of years before the advent of mankind, let alone the Industrial Revolution. The answer to the problem (if problem it is) doesn't lie in simply destroying America's post-Industrial Revolution economy. Any proposal that purports to try and reduce/slow/reverse climate change that specifically excludes the largest polluters in the world isn't serious. Or, it may be serious enough, but it isn't serious about climate change. It is about economics and taking the United States down a peg or ten.

Also, I look at the personal behavior of the proponants of this shit (Farnan's lawsuit had cited more than 20 inflammatory statements attributed to Corbett, including "Conservatives don't want women to avoid pregnancies – that's interfering with God's work" and "When you pray for divine intervention, you're hoping that the spaghetti monster will help you get what you want."

In an April 3 tentative ruling, however, Selna dismissed all but two of the statements as either not directly referring to religion or as being appropriate in the context of a class lecture, including the headline-grabbing "When you put on your Jesus glasses, you can't see the truth."

ecially Al Gore) and note that their energy consumption dosen't look like they really believe in the snake oil they are selling. They want you and I to drastically reduce our standard of living while they live in the lap of modern luxury and jet around the world in private jets. That shit has to end before I'll even give serious consideration to the "problem".

307 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:47pm

re: #289 Soona'

The fruitfly?

No, the ancestor was a hominid.

308 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:54:41pm

re: #302 Bubblehead II

Got a NIC and thread?

Most of the threads on the front page dealing with creationism and kooks.

309 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:05pm

re: #295 FurryOldGuyJeans
Your last sentence. We aren't in close enough contact with them enough of the time for the bugs to cross over and mutate. IMO. In Asia and other places where the swine and avain strains start, people are literally living with the animals.

310 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:21pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Stealth dinger going to town.

Name?

311 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:25pm

re: #290 zombie

Fine by me. Religious people can have whatever beliefs they want.

Just don't try to pass it off as science.

Agreed. I am a jew but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the fairy tales in the Torah (Noah's Ark, the Red Sea parting, etc.). I never believed that crap and never will. That doesn't make me any less Jewish, and wouldn't have save my ass in Poland in 1942. Melanie may be one of those who feels that she has to tow the line for credibility and consistency.

312 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:49pm
313 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:50pm

re: #296 buzzsawmonkey

Did matrimonial bonds take the same beating in the market as the regular kind?

Mine did. My marriage is ended. But in contrast to the market amicably.

314 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:10pm

re: #226 Liberal Classic

Or, third possibility, we release the right amount of sequestered carbon and happily stay right where we are in the current interglacial.

Which would please all the people who cannot stand change.

I suppose that might just happen.

315 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:18pm

re: #304 freetoken

/Are we sure the woman isn't one of DI's scholars?

She's rather thick headed isn't she? Intelligent design doesn't even follow accepted scientific practice. It would be as if though she wanted ESP to be respected by telecommunications engineers.

316 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:36pm

re: #303 Sharmuta
One of 'those' chicken shits.

317 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:43pm

re: #293 DEZes

Any gaps or flaws in a theory are at least normal.
Dinosaurs are for the most part a recent discovery, Darwin never had the chance to study them, but that does not prove his theory wrong or show flaws.
Are there missing links, well yes. A billion or so years is gonna cover cover up a whole lot of unknown and undiscovered life.
Nature has a way of hiding its past, not out of spite, just with change.

And when such a significantly small sample of past life expires in such a way as to avoid predation AND allow for preservation, it is not at all hard to understand why there are perceived missing links.

318 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:03pm

if you asked someone 200 years ago about space flight they would think you were nuts just wondering what we will beable to do 200 years from now that today we don't have a clue.

319 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:05pm

re: #295 FurryOldGuyJeans

The one thing I have always wondered, though, is if we are so close to chimpanzees genetically, then why has there never been a strain of chimp flu that runs rampant through the human population, having to exclude the closer contact pigs have with humans on average.

It could be that the chimpanzee population is too small and spread out to provide a sufficient base within which such a virus could evolve.

320 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:21pm

re: #313 callahan23

Mine did. My marriage is ended. But in contrast to the market amicably.

It maybe over, but if it ended amicably, it says volumes about you and your x.

321 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:47pm

re: #306 Iron Fist

Climate change is real enough, but that isn't really the issue. The climate is always changing. It has been changing for litterally billions of years before the advent of mankind, let alone the Industrial Revolution. The answer to the problem (if problem it is) doesn't lie in simply destroying America's post-Industrial Revolution economy. Any proposal that purports to try and reduce/slow/reverse climate change that specifically excludes the largest polluters in the world isn't serious. Or, it may be serious enough, but it isn't serious about climate change. It is about economics and taking the United States down a peg or ten.

Also, I look at the personal behavior of the proponants of this shit (Farnan's lawsuit had cited more than 20 inflammatory statements attributed to Corbett, including "Conservatives don't want women to avoid pregnancies – that's interfering with God's work" and "When you pray for divine intervention, you're hoping that the spaghetti monster will help you get what you want."

In an April 3 tentative ruling, however, Selna dismissed all but two of the statements as either not directly referring to religion or as being appropriate in the context of a class lecture, including the headline-grabbing "When you put on your Jesus glasses, you can't see the truth."

ecially Al Gore) and note that their energy consumption dosen't look like they really believe in the snake oil they are selling. They want you and I to drastically reduce our standard of living while they live in the lap of modern luxury and jet around the world in private jets. That shit has to end before I'll even give serious consideration to the "problem".

Man will never control the climate. But we're great at adapting to it.

322 Bubblehead II  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:58pm

re: #308 Sharmuta

Guess I should just fire up the LGF spy and take a look see then.

323 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:58:31pm

re: #317 FurryOldGuyJeans

And when such a significantly small sample of past life expires in such a way as to avoid predation AND allow for preservation, it is not at all hard to understand why there are perceived missing links.

Exactly, its like my cell phone.

324 Wild Knight  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:05pm

I've got a story for Charles and it makes me really heavy-hearted to recount it. I've got friends from the very upper-crust of English society. It is a family so ancient that Burke's peerage notes simply that they were "nobilis ante conquestum". Think Brideshead and you've got. Now, although they come from a long line of recusants they are absolutely irreligious. They've all had the kind of education which comes with their class and have extremely sober jobs in finance and academia. Well, one night, recently, having heard that the whole family had returned home from London, I popped by at their house for an evening of booze and tobacco. Out of the blue, I don't know how, the topic of evolution came around. Believe me, I could only attend in astonishment as they denied evolution and produced a whole host of arguments against it - underpinning their position by claiming that life on earth originated from an alien intelligence. They were dead serious. To say that I was stunned is an understatment. It is beginning to appear to me that this insanity is not specifically linked to religion if even non-believers get bitten by the bug. It is evident that the fundamental problem lies with decades of extremely poor education and the gullibility attendant upon such poor education. At this stage, I am ready to believe that this "intelligent design" malaise has roots that go far deeper than left vs right, believers vs. non-believers. The whole problem lies with the rotten core of an education that has been hijacked by Marxists professors of pedagogy whose only concern is to undermine "elitist" subjects and methodologies. This is the harvest we're sowing.

325 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:27pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Stealth dinger going to town.

RTH615?

326 Iron Fist  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #306 Iron Fist

Blended post. I must have poped in my clipboard contents. Sorry about that.

327 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Michael Medved believes there is "persuasive evidence for Bigfoot."

Cryptozoology

/Coming to a science class nearest you.

328 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:39pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

This one has made exactly zero comments.

Kinda the reason why, if it were up to me, someone would have to have a number of comments under the belt before they get the privilege to judge the rest of us.

329 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:00:07pm

re: #320 DEZes

It maybe over, but if it ended amicably, it says volumes about you and your x.

Thanks {DEZes}

330 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:00:10pm

re: #318 yochanan

if you asked someone 200 years ago about space flight they would think you were nuts just wondering what we will beable to do 200 years from now that today we don't have a clue.

The folks back then would have been shocked not just by space flight, but also by the vast majority of modern technology. And you're right- we have no idea what developments await future generations, except that if we undermine science education, those advances will be delayed, and who knows what the cost of that might be.

331 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:00:32pm

re: #325 Charles

RTH615?

Yes, Sir.

332 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:01:23pm

re: #319 Salamantis

It could be that the chimpanzee population is too small and spread out to provide a sufficient base within which such a virus could evolve.

I think it would be an interesting thing to research, considering the news.

333 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:01:58pm
334 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:10pm

Or how about this classic from 2006:

The lure of The Da Vinci Code

The reason is the inadequacy of scientific evolutionary theory to meet the extravagant claims by secularists that it explains the origins of life itself. This inadequacy - and the increasing number of scientists who are acknowledging it - has created growing pressure from evangelical Christians to include ‘creationism’ or its more sophisticated variant, intelligent design, in the school science syllabus, downgrading evolution from the way it is currently taught as unchallengeable fact to a mere theory alongside religious belief.

This movement is growing so fast that the more prominent atheists are becoming ever shriller in their denunciations. Last weekend Professor Colin Blakemore, head of the Medical Research Council, even used the arrival of bird flu on British shores to beat the drum for Darwin and claim that there was no intelligent design in a virus, only the mindless force of natural selection.

Now the discovery in Canada of the fossilised remains of Tiktaalik Roseae, a creature that was half fish, half land animal and which lived more than 375 million years ago, is being said to prove that mankind descended from fish. One might retain a measure of scepticism about such an excitable claim, since in itself this fossil proves nothing of the sort.

For many, the claim that evolution enabled life to cross the species barrier so that humans are merely the last link in the evolutionary chain remains a step too far — not least because, by the standards science itself sets, it fails the test of evidence. It is merely a theory.

To go even further, as some scientists do, and make the leap from evolutionary theory to the claim that this somehow explains the origin of life itself clearly fails the test of logic. The assertion by some scientists that the world probably began without any beginning sounds to many as preposterous as the belief that the world was created in six days sounds to an atheist.

Scientific knowledge may have dealt a serious blow to religious belief, but science does not fill the gaps in our understanding of existence. It does not explain the irreduceable complexity of certain cells for example, which cannot have been formed by simple organisms coming together. And contrary to Darwin’s theory that evolution is a slow and continuous process, the fossil record itself shows long periods where nothing happened and then several new species — just like buses — came along at once.

OK, I'm calling it - She is a shill for the DI.

/either that, or she is married to a dentist from Texas

335 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:34pm

re: #331 Sharmuta

Yes, Sir.

Now I know why I am bleeding karma.

336 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:52pm

re: #307 Salamantis

No, the ancestor was a hominid.

What about me? You guys keep talking about me when my attention is elsewhere. ;)

337 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:52pm

science education with out morals and values science can create evil just look at the last century.

in and of itself it is neither good nor bad.

338 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:54pm

re: #334 freetoken

Or how about this classic from 2006:

The lure of The Da Vinci Code

OK, I'm calling it - She is a shill for the DI.

/either that, or she is married to a dentist from Texas

LOL @ the dentist crack.

339 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:03:28pm

re: #327 Gus 802
I live up here in the Northwest and a lot of folks think there may be something out there, but and everybody agrees, if the damn thing is more evolved than a chimp it may bury its dead. Until we find a body I'm withholding judgement. Remember though, the ceolcanth wasn't rediscivered until 1935 and the mountain gorrilla till 1900. We are still finding oddball critters.

340 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:04:28pm

re: #336 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me? You guys keep talking about me when my attention is elsewhere. ;)

Your ancestor was a stooge.

/hominahominahominid...;~)

341 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:04:35pm

re: #334 freetoken

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

This inadequacy - and the increasing number of scientists who are acknowledging it - has created growing pressure from evangelical Christians to include ‘creationism’ or its more sophisticated variant, intelligent design

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

342 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:04:59pm

re: #325 Charles

RTH615?

What a record that stealth dinger has:
RTH615
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 12, 2008 at 1:02 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of links posted: 1

GOSH!

343 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:05:27pm

re: #342 callahan23

What a record that stealth dinger has:
RTH615
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 12, 2008 at 1:02 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of links posted: 1

GOSH!

Not anymore.

344 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:05:34pm

re: #340 Salamantis

Your ancestor was a stooge.

/hominahominahominid...;~)

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk! ;)

345 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:05:35pm

re: #336 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me? You guys keep talking about me when my attention is elsewhere. ;)

We're just waiting for Charles to put up a hominid thread.

346 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:06:09pm

re: #343 Sharmuta
Heh.

347 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:06:15pm

The Vatican is looking into genetically modified food.....
Pros and cons of genetic modification: Not your typical food fight

In an effort to find out whether genetically modified organisms harm human health or not, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences will be holding a study week in mid-May to hear what the scientific community has to say.

"There is a lot of propaganda being used by the two sides," Bishop Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo, the academy's chancellor, told Catholic News Service April 29. "And for exactly that reason some scientific clarity is needed" to determine how safe these organisms are.
.....
The majority of the 41 speakers listed on the academy's Web site support the use of modified crops for boosting food production and the creation of new sources of energy from nonfood crops. The bishop said that's because there are very few scientists who oppose the use of genetically modified organisms.

Even though it looks like most participants already agree that genetic modification should play a key role in fighting world hunger, Bishop Sanchez believes there will be a lively debate and some disagreement.

348 SpaceJesus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:06:50pm

re: #277 pjaicomo

Off to study. Torts exam on wednesday.


torts in the spring?

349 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:07pm

re: #324 Wild Knight

It is beginning to appear to me that this insanity is not specifically linked to religion if even non-believers get bitten by the bug. It is evident that the fundamental problem lies with decades of extremely poor education and the gullibility attendant upon such poor education. At this stage, I am ready to believe that this "intelligent design" malaise has roots that go far deeper than left vs right, believers vs. non-believers. The whole problem lies with the rotten core of an education that has been hijacked by Marxists professors of pedagogy whose only concern is to undermine "elitist" subjects and methodologies. This is the harvest we're sowing.

My greatest regret is that I have but one upding to give for that most incisive and outstanding comment.

350 Iron Fist  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:26pm

re: #337 yochanan

Most advances in science are a mixed bag of good and ill. Look at nuclear weapons. The most terribly destructive weapon developed to date (unless someone has weaponized smallpox), but also the guarantor of relative peace because it has, up until now at least, proven to be a weapon to terrible to risk its use.

351 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:34pm

re: #341 Sharmuta

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

This inadequacy - and the increasing number of scientists who are acknowledging it - has created growing pressure from evangelical Christians to include ‘creationism’ or its more sophisticated variant, intelligent design

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

Wow. OK. I didn't want to believe she was being deliberately dishonest, but that makes it really difficult.

352 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:35pm

re: #342 callahan23

What a record that stealth dinger has:
RTH615
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 12, 2008 at 1:02 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of links posted: 1

GOSH!

Heh, its karma was two points over its IQ.
Yeah I know that would be a negative IQ.

353 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:38pm

re: #326 Iron Fist

Blended post. I must have poped in my clipboard contents. Sorry about that.

Better than blended scotch, I must say.

354 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:39pm

For the aviation nuts.....
Bristol Brabazon

I like the narrator.

355 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:08:51pm
356 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:09:18pm

re: #283 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am not in FLA, I tell ya!

You're probably too old for her anyway. ;)

357 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:09:31pm

re: #341 Sharmuta

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

Ok, DI shill is back on the menu and looking to be the only thing left to choose.

358 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:09:50pm

re: #341 Sharmuta

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

Sharmuta gets the gold star!

359 altermite  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:07pm

re: #337 yochanan

Science does not create evil. Evil people create evil, and frequently those evil people don't understand the science, and are politicizing the bits they do not understand. I think you are refering to eugenics, which is an excellent example of people not understanding science, and polticizing the bits thy think they do to fit their own radical agenda.

360 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:17pm

re: #356 doppelganglander

You're probably too old for her anyway. ;)

I will be too old when I am 3 days dead and buried. ;)

361 Charles  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:22pm

I opened registration a little while ago without announcing it.

A previously banned person almost immediately tried to register three sock puppet accounts.

362 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:45pm

re: #357 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ok, DI shill is back on the menu and looking to be the only thing left to choose.

Maybe it pays better.

363 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:54pm

re: #361 Charles
Goddamn rat bastards.

364 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:11:16pm

re: #361 Charles

I opened registration a little while ago without announcing it.

A previously banned person almost immediately tried to register three sock puppet accounts.

THREE?!? Persistent little cuss, wasn't he?

365 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:11:37pm

re: #360 FurryOldGuyJeans

I will be too old when I am 3 days dead and buried. ;)

Your only as old as the women you feel.
I wish I knew the comedians name that said that.

366 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:13pm

re: #358 freetoken

Sharmuta gets the gold star!

Yea! I will put it in my little book. ;)

367 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:36pm

re: #356 doppelganglander

You're probably too old for her anyway. ;)

You're only as old as the girls you feel.

368 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:46pm

re: #366 Sharmuta

Yea! I will put it in my little book. ;)

put it on the cover. ;)
Good work.

369 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:49pm

re: #191 freetoken

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

re: #304 freetoken

/Are we sure the woman isn't one of DI's scholars?

re: #334 freetoken

Or how about this classic from 2006:

The lure of The Da Vinci Code

OK, I'm calling it - She is a shill for the DI.

/either that, or she is married to a dentist from Texas

Oh dear oh dear.

It may be time to put some Weird Al Yankovic on the turntable:

Another One 'Neath the Bus:

370 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:13:03pm

Has anyone emailed Melanie a link to this thread?

/Sal loves exploding heads...

371 DEZes[deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:13:24pm
372 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:13:42pm

re: #368 DEZes

put it on the cover. ;)
Good work.

I'm going to share it with freetoken, since I couldn't have spotted that without freetoken digging up the article.

373 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:14:08pm

re: #339 pingjockey

I live up here in the Northwest and a lot of folks think there may be something out there, but and everybody agrees, if the damn thing is more evolved than a chimp it may bury its dead. Until we find a body I'm withholding judgement. Remember though, the ceolcanth wasn't rediscivered until 1935 and the mountain gorrilla till 1900. We are still finding oddball critters.

If it was a mountain gorilla which would be the closest approximation they would at least find remains, bones, habitat, etc. Until then it is just a legend and useless for scientific study. Unless I am mistaken there isn't any record of North American gorillas which makes even the possibility highly unlikely. It could be based on an actual human such as what one might see withYu Zhenhuan.

It does however make for entertaining campfire stories like the Jersey Devil.

374 Iron Fist  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:14:32pm

re: #361 Charles

I can't imagine the craziness needed to obsessively watch LGF waiting to register a sock-puppet that I have to know isn't going to last very long once I start using it. It's really nuts.

375 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:14:40pm

re: #371 DEZes

I dont touch girls libtard.
Up yours.

Ah my bad, sorry avanti.
Charles please delete my 371.

376 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:05pm

re: #365 DEZes

Your only as old as the women you feel.
I wish I knew the comedians name that said that.

Sounds like either Groucho or Zero Mostel. Both were randy buggers.

377 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:08pm

re: #361 Charles

I opened registration a little while ago without announcing it.

A previously banned person almost immediately tried to register three sock puppet accounts.

Opening registration into an ID thread. That's just mean, Charles.
//

378 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:18pm

re: #370 Salamantis

Has anyone emailed Melanie a link to this thread?

/Sal loves exploding heads...

As long as it happens at your house, I have no problem with that

(I just painted and put in new carpets!)

379 Iron Fist  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:26pm

re: #371 DEZes

Yeah, I thought that comment was pretty creepy, myself.

380 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:32pm

re: #373 Gus 802

If it was a mountain gorilla which would be the closest approximation they would at least find remains, bones, habitat, etc. Until then it is just a legend and useless for scientific study. Unless I am mistaken there isn't any record of North American gorillas which makes even the possibility highly unlikely. It could be based on an actual human such as what one might see withYu Zhenhuan.

It does however make for entertaining campfire stories like the Jersey Devil.

Here in Florida we have a similar sasquatch myth; ours is called the Skunk Ape.

381 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:41pm

re: #373 Gus 802
That is about all it's good for. Lots of really neat stories, but NO physical evidence, feces, hair, bones, nada, zip.

382 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:49pm

re: #376 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sounds like either Groucho or Zero Mostel. Both were randy buggers.

I think it was Groucho, but not sure.

383 SpaceJesus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:24pm

re: #374 Iron Fist

I can't imagine the craziness needed to obsessively watch LGF waiting to register a sock-puppet that I have to know isn't going to last very long once I start using it. It's really nuts.


welcome to the internet

384 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:25pm

re: #380 Salamantis

Here in Florida we have a similar sasquatch myth; ours is called the Skunk Ape.

Skunk ape? Wow, I'd hate to run into that. //

385 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:33pm

re: #324 Wild Knight

...Believe me, I could only attend in astonishment as they denied evolution and produced a whole host of arguments against it - underpinning their position by claiming that life on earth originated from an alien intelligence. They were dead serious. To say that I was stunned is an understatement. ...

That is what made me be worlds apart to my to-be ex wife. Now you Lizards understand better.
Oh, and it is her who subscribes to this kind of nonsense. Not that I needed to clarify this point. ;-)

386 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:52pm

re: #379 Iron Fist

Yeah, I thought that comment was pretty creepy, myself.

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

387 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:25pm

re: #380 Salamantis

in chicagostan it is about a homeless guy named FRED who is also seen on a bike.

388 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:30pm

re: #377 Soona'

Opening registration into an ID thread. That's just mean, Charles.
//

But it does get the meltdowns started much earlier so we don't have to wait months and months for the sockpuppets to surface.

389 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:38pm

re: #386 DEZes

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

That's why women should be called women and not girls.

390 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:38pm

re: #375 DEZes

Ah my bad, sorry avanti.
Charles please delete my 371.

No problem, I have no idea what you said meant, I was just repeating a old line. :)

391 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:42pm

re: #373 Gus 802

If it was a mountain gorilla which would be the closest approximation they would at least find remains, bones, habitat, etc. Until then it is just a legend and useless for scientific study. Unless I am mistaken there isn't any record of North American gorillas which makes even the possibility highly unlikely. It could be based on an actual human such as what one might see withYu Zhenhuan.

It does however make for entertaining campfire stories like the Jersey Devil.

What do you mean, no North American gorillas. I had two of them throw me out of a bar once.

392 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:46pm

re: #374 Iron Fist

I can't imagine the craziness needed to obsessively watch LGF waiting to register a sock-puppet that I have to know isn't going to last very long once I start using it. It's really nuts.

I predict that soon, "LGF Stalkerology" will become one of the main categories of political dementia in this country, alongside 9/11-Truthism, the Grassy Knoll, and the need to preserve our PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS.

393 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:55pm

re: #380 Salamantis

Here in Florida we have a similar sasquatch myth; ours is called the Skunk Ape.

A big stinky ape....
Stinksquatch.

394 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:18:38pm

re: #379 Iron Fist

Yeah, I thought that comment was pretty creepy, myself.

I found it a lot more than just pretty creepy. Revolting, actually.

395 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:04pm

re: #390 avanti

No problem, I have no idea what you said meant, I was just repeating a old line. :)

I said the same line up thread using women, the term girls set me off.

396 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:27pm

re: #391 Soona'

What do you mean, no North American gorillas. I had two of them throw me out of a bar once.

Hominoidea "Bouncer" Bartenderus //

397 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:41pm

re: #386 DEZes

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

I think the same way, so you didn't jump if I was on the jury.

398 Iron Fist  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:59pm

re: #386 DEZes

I'm too old to touch anyone I would consider a "girl". Even if they are legal, it isn't my cup of tea. Women would have been a less ambiguous term.

399 altermite  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:20:26pm

re: #383 SpaceJesus

I'm not a crazy, but I did just register. I decided to create an account after lurking a while, and the registration button said it might open up on the afternoon over the weekend, so I checked then. I'd guess that might be the same rationale the other person used.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, this place gets a lot of traffic.

400 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:20:44pm

Women = females over 18
Girls = females under 18

401 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:20:45pm

re: #386 DEZes

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

OK, got it, sorry, but I call even middle aged women girls all the time and don't think a thing about it. Trust me pedophilia was not the intent. :)

402 Lynn B.  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:21:04pm

re: #286 onepistoffyid

Many religious jews don't believe in evolution. If you believe in the Torah, you can't believe in evolution, they are mutually exclusive.

Sorry, but that's just totally wrong. For one example (among very many), see the book Alouette linked earlier in this thread

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

and read the reviews for more background on the author and his position.

403 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:21:39pm

re: #399 altermite
Welcome, and yes this place is busier than I-5 at rush hour!

404 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:10pm

re: #398 Iron Fist

I'm too old to touch anyone I would consider a "girl". Even if they are legal, it isn't my cup of tea. Women would have been a less ambiguous term.

Who would want green wood when one can have seasoned fruit ripened on the vine? Clumsy puppy enthusiasm is no substitute for the expertise born of experience.

405 KingKenrod  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:10pm

60 Minutes is running a story now about how the Saudis are trying to
rehabilitate jihadis. Should be good for a puke and a giggle.

406 Gus 802  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:34pm

re: #403 pingjockey

Welcome, and yes this place is busier than I-5 at rush hour!

Stay out of the left lane! Especially if one is new.

//

407 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:39pm

re: #400 pingjockey

Women = females over 18
Girls = females under 18

So the over/ under is 18?

You'll get 20 to life on the under!

408 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:23:04pm

re: #401 avanti

OK, got it, sorry, but I call even middle aged women girls all the time and don't think a thing about it. Trust me pedophilia was not the intent. :)

I understand, I am just real touchy about boys and girls.
I call those children.

409 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:23:23pm

re: #404 Salamantis

Who would want green wood when one can have seasoned fruit ripened on the vine? Clumsy puppy enthusiasm is no substitute for the expertise born of experience.

As one of my friends puts it, he prefers the sadder but wiser woman.
/The Music Man
//The original lyric says "girl" but I'm not setting that one off again.

410 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:23:44pm

re: #407 sattv4u2
That is just my way of seperating women from girls. Now me being my age, women under 30 are girls!

411 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:02pm

re: #400 pingjockey

Women = females over 18
Girls = females under 18

Must be a generational thing. My wife has a girls night out and she's in her 50's. Again, it's quite a stretch to think I was suggesting kids.

412 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:08pm

re: #389 Sharmuta

That's why women should be called women and not girls.

I agree, but I can't help mentioning this:

Some female comedian had a sitcom back in the day, don't recall her name though.

In one episode her supervisor kept referring to her as "girl". A female co-worker told her that it was sexist and she shouldn't put up with that.

Her response was "Sweetie, I can hide a can of cat food under each breast. If he wants to call me a girl I'm gonna let him".

413 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:08pm

I like women over 40. They don't yell, they don't swell, they don't tell, and they're grateful as Hell.

/old Redd Foxx joke

414 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:12pm

re: #398 Iron Fist

I'm too old to touch anyone I would consider a "girl". Even if they are legal, it isn't my cup of tea. Women would have been a less ambiguous term.

That's why I've started to call them "human females".

415 Iron Fist  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:25:06pm