Melanie Phillips Takes a Wrong Turn on ‘Intelligent Design’ Creationism

Science • Views: 5,015

Melanie Phillips has done good work exposing the danger of Islamic militancy in Britain, and I’ve linked many of her articles on the subject here at LGF. She’s also taken a principled stand against Eurofascist groups such as the BNP, who try to gain legitimacy by claiming to be “anti-jihad.”

But she’s simply wrong in this article. Way wrong: Creating An Insult To Intelligence.

She claims that “intelligent design” is: 1) based on science, not religion, and 2) not related to creationism.

Wrong, and wrong again.

If “intelligent design” is really based on science, why have their advocates failed to produce any scientific evidence for that claim, despite millions of dollars worth of funding and years in which to do it? Instead, “intelligent design” proponents spend all their time on public relations. Where are the peer reviewed studies? Where are the experimental proofs that can be duplicated by other scientists? Answer: nonexistent.

As for her claim that “intelligent design” is not based on religion, this is incredibly easy to refute. All we have to do is read the very words of the people who promote ID, starting with the man considered the father of the movement, Phillip E. Johnson:

This [the intelligent design movement] isn’t really, and never has been, a debate about science, it’s about religion and philosophy.

And that’s not the only time Johnson has specifically explained the religious nature of ID. Another quote:

The Intelligent Design movement starts with the recognition that “In the beginning was the Word,” and “In the beginning God created.” Establishing that point isn’t enough, but it is absolutely essential to the rest of the gospel message.

Another ID proponent, William Dembski, also makes the religious intent of “intelligent design” crystal clear in this quote:

Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration.

So there can be absolutely no doubt that Phillips is completely incorrect when she claims there is no religious basis to the ID movement.

Her second claim, that “intelligent design” is not related to creationism, is even more ridiculous. In the Dover trial (which she derides by saying “the court was simply wrong” and biologist Ken Miller’s testimony was “muddled”) the creationist origin of ID was proven, again beyond a shadow of a doubt.

In that trial, the National Center for Science Education obtained a sequential series of drafts for the primary ID textbook titled Of Pandas and People, and discovered that the book had begun its existence as a work of pure young earth creationism. Here’s a video presentation by the NCSE documenting their exposé of this textbook:

Youtube Video

I hope that Melanie Phillips is simply uninformed on these subjects, and has been misled by the deceptive propaganda that pours relentlessly out of the anti-evolution Discovery Institute — because I don’t really want to believe she’s being deliberately dishonest.

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1036 comments

1 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:13:56pm

Crap. Not another one.

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:14:10pm

A lot of anti-Jihad people seem to have fallen for the other religious authoritarian hogwash.

3 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:14:52pm

re: #1 HelloDare

Crap. Not another one.

It is a trend and fashion that is becoming unpleasant and very alarming.

4 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:15:06pm

If “intelligent design” is really based on science, why have their advocates failed to produce any scientific evidence for that claim, despite millions of dollars worth of funding and years in which to do it?

Ummmmm. Because there isn't any and that what they have brought forth as "proof" has been debunked as out right fraudulent.

5 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:15:17pm

i am not ready to toss her under the bus on this. esp since she has done yeoman's work supporting Israel and other issues i care greatly about.

6 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:16:16pm

for me it is a theological issue and I don't debate religion.

7 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:16:44pm

re: #1 HelloDare

Crap. Not another one.

Charles,

I was talking about the person, not the thread. Love these threads as depressing as they might be.

8 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:17:21pm

If the testimony of anyone in the Dover trial was muddled, it was that of ID proponent Michael Behe, who was thoroughly embarrassed on the stand having to admit astrology would be considered science under the DI's definition, and claiming there were no peer reviewed articles on the evolution of the immune system, only to be buried by a mountain of peer reviewed articles and books on the subject. As far as testimony goes- his was an epic fail.

9 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:18:26pm

re: #4 Bubblehead II

If “intelligent design” is really based on science, why have their advocates failed to produce any scientific evidence for that claim, despite millions of dollars worth of funding and years in which to do it?

Ummmmm. Because there isn't any and that what they have brought forth as "proof" has been debunked as out right fraudulent.

They are pushing to get their brand of science legitimized so there will be evidence to back up their claims. I used to think it strange and ironic that this ultra-religious organization, the Discovery Institute, chose to have its headquarters in UBER-Liberal, ULTRA-Socialist Seattle, but I came to the conclusion and realization that it happened because crazies like to swarm.

10 Big Steve  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:18:59pm

Are we witnessing evolution in the news this week with H1N1? I know that there are arguments as to whether viruses are really alive since they can't self replicate. However H1N1 is a new virus and didn't exist until presumably recently. As I understand it influenza mutates when an individual is infected with a non-human influenza which doesn't affect them but then also catches a human strain and within a single cell the two DNA packages interact creating a new virus.

11 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:20:56pm

re: #10 Big Steve

Are we witnessing evolution in the news this week with H1N1? I know that there are arguments as to whether viruses are really alive since they can't self replicate. However H1N1 is a new virus and didn't exist until presumably recently. As I understand it influenza mutates when an individual is infected with a non-human influenza which doesn't affect them but then also catches a human strain and within a single cell the two DNA packages interact creating a new virus.

Yet the Creationism wonks will say they have always believed in micro-evolution, virus mutation and such, but reject macro-evolution, the change of species over time.

12 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:21:52pm

re: #5 yochanan

i am not ready to toss her under the bus on this. esp since she has done yeoman's work supporting Israel and other issues i care greatly about.

Who said anything about "tossing her under the bus?"

Am I supposed to refrain from criticizing people when they go off base, and publish articles that are drastically mistaken?

13 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:22:10pm

I still love Melanie, even if she is wrong about this issue. her book "Londonistan" was excellent

14 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:22:43pm

re: #9 FurryOldGuyJeans

They are pushing to get their brand of science fiction legitimized so there will be evidence to back up their claims. I used to think it strange and ironic that this ultra-religious organization, the Discovery Institute, chose to have its headquarters in UBER-Liberal, ULTRA-Socialist Seattle, but I came to the conclusion and realization that it happened because crazies like to swarm.

FTFY. :-)

15 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:23:00pm
16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:23:00pm

re: #5 yochanan

i am not ready to toss her under the bus on this. esp since she has done yeoman's work supporting Israel and other issues i care greatly about.

I don't see Charles "tossing her under the bus" at all. He is just pointing out some very muddled and wrong-headed thinking.

17 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:23:13pm

Intelligent agency? That's a hoot. Fish were "designed" by an "intelligent designer" from an "intelligent agency." This is starting to sound more like an alien based religion like the Raliens.

18 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:24:27pm
I hope that Melanie Phillips is simply uninformed on these subjects, and has been misled by the deceptive propaganda that pours relentlessly out of the anti-evolution Discovery Institute — because I don’t really want to believe she’s being deliberately dishonest.

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

19 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:24:50pm

re: #14 Bubblehead II

FTFY. :-)

Didn't need any fixin' since I said THEIR brand of science. You know, the one that is inspired by G-d and not S-tan?

20 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:25:18pm

That is just a bad article.

ID is science.

That is all she said, and she said it with the same proof I have provided above.

What kind of article is that? The court was wrong because I said so?

Come on.

21 Nekama  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:25:55pm

Very disappointing. Melanie is someone who I really believed had her head screwed on straight.

Ron Paul must be responsible.

22 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:25:57pm

re: #17 Gus 802

Intelligent agency? That's a hoot. Fish were "designed" by an "intelligent designer" from an "intelligent agency." This is starting to sound more like an alien based religion like the Raliens.

Couldn't have been the US Congress or any agency of the US Government if you are looking for some intelligence.

/ is it sarcasm or is it memorex?

23 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:26:21pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

So is biologist Ken Miller, whose testimony she derides as "muddled."

24 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:26:26pm

True, but it still reads like a bad science fiction novel.

25 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:26:37pm

i never thought of this as science for me it is a religious subject.

i personally have a problem with the politization of science were ever it comes from the right or left.

26 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:27:09pm

re: #22 FurryOldGuyJeans

Couldn't have been the US Congress or any agency of the US Government if you are looking for some intelligence.

/ is it sarcasm or is it memorex?

Maybe we should look at the CIA -- Creationist Intelligent Agency. //

27 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:10pm

24 was meant for you fogj.

/Must really learn to hit the reply button.

28 Big Steve  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:16pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

As Richard Dawkins points out why does being "religious" get a pass in our society?

29 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:22pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

The more likely explanation is that she is religious.

I personally know quite a few VERY religious people who reject totally out of hand such humbuggery as ID and Creationism. You smear with a VERY broad brush there.

"A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles."

30 Lightspeed  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:43pm

I think I know a way to discredit ID once and for all. Intelligent Design, in order to avoid "religious" association, does not name the desginer. It simply posits that there is an intelligent designer. Why not aliens? If somehow we can get the UFO nuts to latch on to ID with aliens as the designer, then it is game over. Can you imagine serious MSM reporting on Intelligent Desgin with the likes of David Icke et al backing it up?

31 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:28:44pm

re: #11 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet the Creationism wonks will say they have always believed in micro-evolution, virus mutation and such, but reject macro-evolution, the change of species over time.

Yes. And for proof, Kirk Cameron will cite that the flu virus has never turned into a duck.

32 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:29:40pm

Two words for Melanie Phillips: cdesign proponentsists.

33 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:16pm

re: #31 HelloDare

Yes. And for proof, Kirk Cameron will cite that the flu virus has never turned into a duck.

I don't go to Kirk for critical thinking skills. He is and has been an actor, a reader of other's words.

34 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:37pm

Ms Phillips has history:

Intolerance against religion (2002)

But evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it. What Emmanuel questions in its religion classes, and may question in its science classes, is scientism, the doctrine that says the only questions worth asking are the ones that science can answer.

The false faith of scientific reason

Such ’scientism’ — as this overreach is termed — goes beyond the ability of science to explain the nature of the world around us and claims to tell us how life began. Yet the assumption that science provides a complete theory of knowledge is itself fundamentally unscientific.

35 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:48pm

jews have a saying when the mosach comes we will have the answers.

until then i will let this one go.

36 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:30:52pm

re: #30 Lightspeed

Imagine the mental contortions that will happen if life is discovered on Mars.

37 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:03pm

re: #30 Lightspeed

I think I know a way to discredit ID once and for all. Intelligent Design, in order to avoid "religious" association, does not name the desginer. It simply posits that there is an intelligent designer. Why not aliens? If somehow we can get the UFO nuts to latch on to ID with aliens as the designer, then it is game over. Can you imagine serious MSM reporting on Intelligent Desgin with the likes of David Icke et al backing it up?

Exactly. Since, anything can therefore be defined as the intelligent designer since there is no explicit definition within the ID textbooks. This can be as you suggested alien beings with a capacity to create life. Or any other being for that matter.

38 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:08pm

"Evangelical athiests"? I hate that nonsensical misnomer:

WEBSTERS:
evan·gel·ic -ik
Function:
adjective
1: of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels
2: protestant
3: emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual
4 acapitalized : of or relating to the Evangelical Church in Germany boften capitalized : of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism : fundamentalist coften capitalized : low church
5: marked by militant or crusading zeal : evangelistic

39 c6gunner  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:18pm

re: #6 yochanan

for me it is a theological issue and I don't debate religion.

For me it's a custard issue, and I don't debate desert toppings.

40 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:34pm

re: #31 HelloDare

Yes. And for proof, Kirk Cameron will cite that the flu virus has never turned into a duck.

Yet he will never admit that human mitochondria are incorporated bacterium.

Odd, isn't it?

41 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:32:46pm
42 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:04pm

re: #29 FurryOldGuyJeans

I personally know quite a few VERY religious people who reject totally out of hand such humbuggery as ID and Creationism. You smear with a VERY broad brush there.

"A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles."

Smear? I was just applying logic.

43 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:15pm

re: #34 freetoken

I wonder if she could name one of these supposed holes in the theory of evolution.

44 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:31pm

re: #36 HelloDare

Imagine the mental contortions that will happen if life is discovered on Mars.

Seeing the drivel the DI tries wedging into school curricula across the country, at times I doubt if intelligent life exists here.

45 Steve Rogers  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:33:52pm

Let’s face the facts: “Creationism” and its spruced-up evolved (heh!) cousin “Intelligent Design” are 100% purely religious in origin and purpose. They are sad and pathetic attempts by uniformed people to desperately try and prove (both to themselves and to others) that the first book of the Bible (and by extension, all other books of the Bible) are 100% true.

So before we can have solid, science-based education in the U.S. that doesn’t suffer from such idiotic attempts to replace real science and real facts with the myths of a patriarchal society dating from the Iron Age, a couple of things will have to happen.

First: Republican voters and elected officials will have to come to realize that religion and morality are two separate things – a religious person can be immoral and that an unreligious person (even agnostics and atheists) can be moral.

Secondly: Republican voters and elected officials will have to realize that the government’s job is not to enforce morality.

Third: Republican voters and elected officials will have to accept that fiscal responsibility, a strong defense and the maximum amount of freedom (even for those people they don’t like or agree with) will have to be their first priorities.

Until those things happen, not only will Republican voters and elected officials continue to attack science and try and drag U.S. school children back thousands of years, but they will continue to lose elections, allowing the liberal Democrats to install the socialism and social fascism that should scare Republicans more than evolution.

46 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:34:24pm

re: #38 pjaicomo

"Evangelical athiests"? I hate that nonsensical misnomer:

...

I missed that in her article.

OK, I don't think she's misunderstanding ID or creationism. She's actually serious about this.

47 Lightspeed  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:34:56pm

re: #37 Gus 802

Exactly. Since, anything can therefore be defined as the intelligent designer since there is no explicit definition within the ID textbooks. This can be as you suggested alien beings with a capacity to create life. Or any other being for that matter.

Hmmm, that gives me another idea. I propose, under the auspices of ID, that life here on Earth was created by super-intelligent....wait for it...monkeys!

48 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:34:59pm

some of us aren't as secular as some of us.

i see extreme secularism as almost a religion in the same way that the echofreaks almost make it a religion.
i stoped being a political true believer a long time ago when i was a radical leftist and was turned off by it sort of curred me of political true believing.

49 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:35:09pm

Discovery Institute shill David "Darwin=Hitler" Klinghoffer loved Phillips' article:

[Link: blog.beliefnet.com...]

50 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:35:25pm

re: #36 HelloDare

Better chances of it being found on Titan.

51 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:35:51pm

re: #46 Gus 802

"As a result, both Creationists and many others of religious faith disdain Intelligent Design, just as ID proponents think Creationism is totally off the wall. Yet the two continue to be conflated. And ignorance is only partly responsible for the confusion, since militant evangelical atheists deliberately conflate Intelligent Design with Creationism in order to smear and discredit ID and its adherents."

52 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:36:05pm

re: #38 pjaicomo

"Evangelical athiests"? I hate that nonsensical misnomer:

WEBSTERS:
evan·gel·ic -ik
Function:
adjective
1: of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels
2: protestant
3: emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual
4 acapitalized : of or relating to the Evangelical Church in Germany boften capitalized : of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism : fundamentalist coften capitalized : low church
5: marked by militant or crusading zeal : evangelistic

Agreed, but I understand the tone. It takes a tremendous amount of Faith with a capital F to be Richard Dawkins. It's a shame, too, because he's one hell of a science writer.

53 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:36:30pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Looks like she is mostly anti-Dawkins, anti-atheists and thus looks at the whole issue from the "culture war" viewpoint. She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings.

So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

54 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:36:57pm

re: #48 yochanan

some of us aren't as secular as some of us.

i see extreme secularism as almost a religion in the same way that the echofreaks almost make it a religion.
i stoped being a political true believer a long time ago when i was a radical leftist and was turned off by it sort of curred me of political true believing.

You can see it however you like, it's not a religion.

55 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:37:27pm

re: #49 Charles

Discovery Institute shill David "Darwin=Hitler" Klinghoffer loved Phillips' article:

[Link: blog.beliefnet.com...]

Why shouldn't he? Another well known person that can be used as a shill for their grifting.

56 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:37:36pm

Sorry to go OT so soon, but Doppleganglander, are you still here?


That storm is now approaching Interstate 75 north of Atlanta! You're up in the area it's heading too, IIRC

WARNING

ALABAMA AND GEORGIA LIZARDS

If there are any Lizards or freinds / relatives of you, there are SEVERE storms including tornado sightings on the Alabama / Gerogia border. It's been ongoing for over an hour (usually they peter out somewhat, but not today)

57 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:37:39pm

re: #47 Lightspeed

Hmmm, that gives me another idea. I propose, under the auspices of ID, that life here on Earth was created by super-intelligent....wait for it...monkeys!

That doable. Would add a monkey wrench into their movement! //

58 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:38:00pm

re: #52 austin_blue

Agreed, but I understand the tone. It takes a tremendous amount of Faith with a capital F to be Richard Dawkins. It's a shame, too, because he's one hell of a science writer.

Yeah, but the purpose of using that term is to claim you are using it in the most secular sense but to actually use it with its vernacular conceptions.

59 c6gunner  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:38:18pm

re: #52 austin_blue

It takes a tremendous amount of Faith with a capital F to be Richard Dawkins. It's a shame, too, because he's one hell of a science writer.

How so?

60 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:38:36pm

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

61 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:39:36pm

re: #50 Bubblehead II

Better chances of it being found on Titan.

But will a probe ever be sent there to try and discover life? Are there any plans?

62 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:39:48pm

re: #60 yochanan

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

Mixing science and politics? I don't think you can really divorce science from politics if you want any sort of informed decision making.

63 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:39:59pm

re: #53 freetoken

Looks like she is mostly anti-Dawkins, anti-atheists and thus looks at the whole issue from the "culture war" viewpoint. She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings.

So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

Is she using a straw man there or poisoning the well?

64 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:40:33pm
65 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:40:43pm

re: #53 freetoken

Looks like she is mostly anti-Dawkins, anti-atheists and thus looks at the whole issue from the "culture war" viewpoint. She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings.

So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

Usually those who parrot the "holes in the theory" rhetoric don't know much about science, and can't cite a single hole they claim exists. They just repeat this mantra without thinking.

66 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:04pm

re: #62 pjaicomo

glogal warming is a clear case of mixing politics and science with the stress on politics I might ad.

67 NY Nana  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:09pm

re: #31 HelloDare

Did someone say the word 'duck'?

68 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:44pm

re: #61 HelloDare

Not sure. Let me check.

69 Empire1  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:41:53pm

re: #37 Gus 802

Exactly. Since, anything can therefore be defined as the intelligent designer since there is no explicit definition within the ID textbooks. This can be as you suggested alien beings with a capacity to create life. Or any other being for that matter.

Swipe them from Doc Smith -- use the Arisians! As a side benefit, there are the Eddorians for the demons ...

70 Lightspeed  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:42:14pm

re: #53 freetoken

She really doesn't have a good grasp of science, and that can be seen from several of her writings. So, no, I doubt she could discuss the alleged "holes".

Then she should either educated herself or keep her mouth shut on the subject. Credibility, once lost, is not easily regained.

71 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:42:18pm

re: #42 anchors_aweigh

Smear? I was just applying logic.

I can guarantee you that if you had said what you did in #18 in front of or to the people I know who are both VERY religious and science rationalists, you would have been called on the carpet for both a smear and not thinking logically.

72 Macker  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:42:58pm

re: #0 Charles

Melanie Phillips has done good work exposing the danger of Islamic militancy in Britain, and I’ve linked many of her articles on the subject here at LGF. She’s also taken a principled stand against Eurofascist groups such as the BNP, who try to gain legitimacy by claiming to be “anti-jihad.”

But she’s simply wrong in this article. Way wrong: Creating An Insult To Intelligence.

Um...doesn't the use of the word "BUT" automatically instruct the reader to ignore everything which was said, prior to the word?

73 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:00pm

re: #69 Empire1

Swipe them from Doc Smith -- use the Arisians! As a side benefit, there are the Eddorians for the demons ...

Exactly. The list of possibilities could be endless. If one does not exist we could thus "create" another "intelligent designer."

74 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:05pm
75 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:11pm

re: #58 pjaicomo

Yeah, but the purpose of using that term is to claim you are using it in the most secular sense but to actually use it with its vernacular conceptions.

Sure. It's the same as saying "The scientific community mocks ID, but don't mock the Dawkins' of the world whose own beliefs are just as religious."

Nice little way to throw a straw man out there instead of responding to the facts of the argument.

76 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:18pm

re: #66 yochanan

glogal warming is a clear case of mixing politics and science with the stress on politics I might ad.

But that is not what you said. You said you don't believe in mixing science and politics.

You should say you don't believe in politics affecting science.

Science should always inform politics.

As for the global warming, besides Al Gore's science, what other scientists are being affected by politics?

77 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:43:31pm

jihadist having a rally in manhattan today worries me

78 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:44:03pm

re: #75 austin_blue

Sure. It's the same as saying "The scientific community mocks ID, but don't mock the Dawkins' of the world whose own beliefs are just as religious."

Nice little way to throw a straw man out there instead of responding to the facts of the argument.

Huh? Are you saying I am throwing out a strawman?

79 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:44:47pm

Looks like it's going to get crowded under the ID bus.

80 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:45:17pm

re: #60 yochanan

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

You don't like mixing science and politic, or science and religion, and yet what worries you is Iran, Pakistan, and al Qaeda. All three blend science and politics with religion.

81 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:45:38pm

re: #68 Bubblehead II

There was a probe sent to Titan already. The Huygens Probe.

T-Storm moving in with heavy rain and wind. Will be back after it blows over.

L8R

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:45:39pm

re: #74 MikeySDCA

Global warming is junk science in the service of political correctness.

Don't forget political power.

83 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:17pm
84 Macker  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:24pm

re: #80 FurryOldGuyJeans

You don't like mixing science and politic, or science and religion, and yet what worries you is Iran, Pakistan, and al Qaeda. All three blend science and politics with religion.

The problem is NOT Judaism or Christianity mixing these three. It is Islam.

85 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:27pm

I started reading "The Challenge of Creation" over the weekend. Just got through the "introduction" which includes a whole bunch of disclaimers warning hard-core "Creationists" to stay away from this book, and also warns against "quote-mining." Finally the author says he is "Public Enemy #1" to people who have never read the book, just denunciations of it.

I am just finishing the first chapter, which is an overview of the philosophy of acknowledging a Designer of the Universe, while also accepting and investigating the details (evolution) of how the Universe developed.

86 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:44pm

re: #72 Macker

Um...doesn't the use of the word "BUT" automatically instruct the reader to ignore everything which was said, prior to the word?

No.

87 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:46:56pm

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Phillips is also a denier of evolution, the safety of vaccines, and global climate change, which sort of tells you what her opinion is worth.

He said that referring to her Wiki entry.

Despite a scientific consensus that there is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism,[27] Phillips has repeatedly questioned the safety of the vaccine,[28][29][30][31] insisting that "urgent questions about the vaccine’s safety remain unanswered".[28] Science writer and physician Ben Goldacre has called Phillips "the MMR sceptic who just doesn't understand science".[32]

Uh oh...

88 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:10pm

I feel really lucky to have been saved from my ignorance on this subject early on in the debate here at LGF. I don't understand why some people feel science and religion must be in conflict- it makes no sense to me. Studying evolution has helped me feel closer to God and his creation, not further removed. I feel sorry for people who are so insecure in their faith (because that's what it is) that they think they have to reject science. It's really sad- they are, in effect, rejecting God's work.

89 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:12pm

Everyone -

"ID" is certainly an attempt to "Scientify" creationism. Melanie, sorry to say you got this one wrong.
Perhaps my beliefs are a bit unorthodox. I believe in a creator - AND - in one wise enough, or with enough of a wicked sense of humor to leave well enough alone after the initial "bang," allowing for all that evolved wherever it did.

-S-

90 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:14pm

re: #78 pjaicomo

Huh? Are you saying I am throwing out a strawman?

No no no. People are who denigrate Dawkins et al as Evangelical Atheists are. I'm with you 100%.

91 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:52pm

re: #84 Macker

The problem is NOT Judaism or Christianity mixing these three. It is Islam.

The DI is mixing all three, and they are the believers in a very militant and narrow dogma of Christianity.

92 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:47:54pm

re: #84 Macker

The problem is NOT Judaism or Christianity mixing these three. It is Islam.

Wrong. It might be currently more dangerous for Islamic states, but it is always a problem.

93 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:02pm
94 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:04pm

re: #80 FurryOldGuyJeans

You don't like mixing science and politic, or science and religion, and yet what worries you is Iran, Pakistan, and al Qaeda. All three blend science and politics with religion.

Thye mix religion and politics, agreed,,, Add science? not so much !

95 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:28pm

re: #77 yochanan

You know what? We get it. You don't see this issue as a problem. Please stop complaining about the topic.

96 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:29pm

re: #90 austin_blue

No no no. People are who denigrate Dawkins et al as Evangelical Atheists are. I'm with you 100%.

Ok, ok. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. :)

97 Macker  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:48:57pm

re: #91 FurryOldGuyJeans

The DI is mixing all three, and they are the believers in a very militant and narrow dogma of Christianity.

At least we, as a Western Society, can debate that issue freely. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?

/crickets

98 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:49:29pm

re: #97 Macker

At least we, as a Western Society, can debate that issue freely. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?

/crickets

Saying something is less wrong doesn't make it right.

99 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:49:38pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

Amen

(literally and figuratively)

100 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:49:57pm
quote:

Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration.


This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

101 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:50:28pm

re: #94 sattv4u2

Thye mix religion and politics, agreed,,, Add science? not so much !

Is building Islamic nuclear bombs to be used against the Crusaders and dirty, evil Jews not a facet of science? Last time I looked nuclear science is still science.

102 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:50:39pm

Again and again religion derails reason. I heard Prager this week, he who claims "clarity is more valuable than agreement" dress down a critical caller with the old irreducibly complex argument.

103 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:11pm

re: #97 Macker

At least we, as a Western Society, can debate that issue freely. Can you say the same about Islamic societies?

/crickets

We let the DI have their way and it will all be moot.

104 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:12pm
105 SpaceJesus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:13pm

I used to love when you could use the mouse wheel to scroll through threads like this looking for comments with lots of red negative karma and laugh at them. I miss the creationists.

where has all the fun gone?

106 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:51:14pm

re: #85 Alouette

I started reading "The Challenge of Creation" over the weekend. Just got through the "introduction" which includes a whole bunch of disclaimers warning hard-core "Creationists" to stay away from this book, and also warns against "quote-mining." Finally the author says he is "Public Enemy #1" to people who have never read the book, just denunciations of it.

I am just finishing the first chapter, which is an overview of the philosophy of acknowledging a Designer of the Universe, while also accepting and investigating the details (evolution) of how the Universe developed.

Here's a link to that book:

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

Looks interesting- I'll have to check it out. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :)

107 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:12pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

I feel really lucky to have been saved from my ignorance on this subject early on in the debate here at LGF. I don't understand why some people feel science and religion must be in conflict- it makes no sense to me. Studying evolution has helped me feel closer to God and his creation, not further removed. I feel sorry for people who are so insecure in their faith (because that's what it is) that they think they have to reject science. It's really sad- they are, in effect, rejecting God's work.

Up-ding.

108 zeebeach  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:13pm

re: #12 Charles

Who said anything about "tossing her under the bus?"

Am I supposed to refrain from criticizing people when they go off base, and publish articles that are drastically mistaken?

I don't think he was saying you need to "refrain from criicizing...etc". I think the point may have been that Melanie will get a pass on her (mis)understanding of ID. Why are you so touchy, Charles?

109 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:39pm

re: #104 MikeySDCA

I've read dumber, but good point.

Stupider //

110 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:43pm

re: #106 Sharmuta

Here's a link to that book:

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

Looks interesting- I'll have to check it out. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :)

I will have to hide the book when my grandkids come over, so my daughter-in-law doesn't freak out.

111 DistantThunder  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:52:49pm

re: #88 Sharmuta

I feel really lucky to have been saved from my ignorance on this subject early on in the debate here at LGF. I don't understand why some people feel science and religion must be in conflict- it makes no sense to me. Studying evolution has helped me feel closer to God and his creation, not further removed. I feel sorry for people who are so insecure in their faith (because that's what it is) that they think they have to reject science. It's really sad- they are, in effect, rejecting God's work.

Exactly Sharm. It gives insight into the mind of the Creator, and reveals the genius.

112 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:04pm
113 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:07pm

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

114 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:23pm

re: #87 freetoken

Not surprising. It doesn't seem like science is her thing.

115 Digital Display  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:40pm

re: #105 spacejesus

I used to love when you could use the mouse wheel to scroll through threads like this looking for comments with lots of red negative karma and laugh at them. I miss the creationists.

where has all the fun gone?

Dang you Spacejesus! I almost up dinged you..Hope today find you well..

116 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:42pm

re: #106 Sharmuta

Here's a link to that book:

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

Looks interesting- I'll have to check it out. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :)

You might find Archaeology.Info interesting as well, Sharm.

117 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:53:45pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

Check the first few comments on the thread downstairs.

118 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:06pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

Seriously. I almost converted.

119 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:18pm

re: #101 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is building Islamic nuclear bombs to be used against the Crusaders and dirty, evil Jews not a facet of science? Last time I looked nuclear science is still science.

thats a stretch. If they used just sling shots it could be considered a "science'. Fact is either the bomb or slingshot are used to further their religious and political inclinations, NOT to further their scientific beleifes

120 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:46pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

Charles explained the ads are served by Google Adsense, based on the frequently of words picked up by their context filter.

I have suggested that he should also run ads for JDate.

121 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:54:58pm

re: #102 The Shadow Do

Again and again religion derails reason. I heard Prager this week, he who claims "clarity is more valuable than agreement" dress down a critical caller with the old irreducibly complex argument.

Depends on which religion. As you well know, they aren't all the same.

122 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:55:00pm

re: #108 zeebeach

I don't think he was saying you need to "refrain from criicizing...etc". I think the point may have been that Melanie will get a pass on her (mis)understanding of ID. Why are you so touchy, Charles?

And the very fact that she (Melanie) gets a pass for saying such outrageously stupid things is exactly why this is such a touchy thing.

123 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:55:19pm

re: #34 freetoken

I get the feeling she really does believe that ID is more than just a cloak for creationism. In which case she is just severely misinformed. I'd love to see her try to respond to Charles' post.

124 DistantThunder  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:55:36pm

I thought Charles presented his critique of Melanie in a professional and considerate way.

125 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:03pm

re: #87 freetoken

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

126 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:09pm
127 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:19pm

Lots of good data at the Re-Discovery website./


link...

128 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:22pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Not surprising. It doesn't seem like science is her thing.

She sounds like she was reading Bryan Appleyard books back in the 90's, and was actually impressed by them.

129 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:50pm

re: #87 freetoken

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Uh oh...

Oh brother.

130 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:51pm

re: #125 Charles

Hang in there.

131 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:51pm

re: #124 DistantThunder

I thought Charles presented his critique of Melanie in a professional and considerate way.

Indeed.

132 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:56:53pm
133 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:57:50pm

re: #125 Charles

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

You couldn't even get away from it by moving either, huh?
After most of the 1st 45 years of my life in Massachusetts, I thought I could escape at least SOME of the madness by moving to Atlanta area 10 years ago.

Nuh uh !

134 jvic  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:57:50pm

Phillips:

In coming to the conclusion that a governing intelligence must have been responsible for the ultimate origin of matter, Intelligent Design proponents are essentially saying there must have been a creator.

There's an enormous difference between saying that an Intelligence set off the Big Bang and saying that that Intelligence intervened on our infinitesimal speck of this. The IDers are trying to get their stuff into biology classes first, not into physics classes.

Phillips' piece is either very uninformed or very disingenuous.

135 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:57:54pm

re: #56 sattv4u2

Sorry to go OT so soon, but Doppleganglander, are you still here?

That storm is now approaching Interstate 75 north of Atlanta! You're up in the area it's heading too, IIRC

WARNING

ALABAMA AND GEORGIA LIZARDS

If there are any Lizards or freinds / relatives of you, there are SEVERE storms including tornado sightings on the Alabama / Gerogia border. It's been ongoing for over an hour (usually they peter out somewhat, but not today)

Yes, I saw when you posted on the previous thread. Thanks for the heads up.

136 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:01pm

re: #129 Gus 802

Oh brother.

This.

137 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:11pm

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

138 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:53pm

re: #119 sattv4u2

thats a stretch. If they used just sling shots it could be considered a "science'. Fact is either the bomb or slingshot are used to further their religious and political inclinations, NOT to further their scientific beleifes

USING science and scientific research is still science. Building a bomb is using science.

139 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:58:57pm
140 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:06pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Not surprising. It doesn't seem like science is her thing.

Well.... yes... and that is hardly a morally damnable thing. Yet, in her non-science, she writes articles that tend to be a bit too familiar sounding... as if she is being fed talking points from the anti-scientists.

141 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:19pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

We know. Just don't mention gonorhhrea, syphilis, chlamydia, boils, or prolapsed rectums.

142 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:24pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

Why? He doesn't beleive the earth was created 6,00 years ago !?!?!

143 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:33pm

OT ... But this is an outstanding column from the great Victor Davis Hanson:

[Link: victorhanson.com...]

He has a way of cutting through the BS that is matched only by Charles Krauthammer.

144 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 3, 2009 2:59:41pm

re: #121 Soona'

Depends on which religion. As you well know, they aren't all the same.

No, but if you are didactic in your faith and literal in your interpretations then you are probably a strong candidate for foolishness regardless of your religious branding.

145 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:00pm

re: #112 buzzsawmonkey

What Phillips' observation shows most plainly is that many people, even many intelligent and educated people, do not "get" science, no matter how much they may be aware how much they owe to it, and rely upon it.

By the same measure they do not "get" Christianity.

146 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:16pm

re: #87 freetoken

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Uh oh...

Gawd. She's more of an idiot than I thought.

147 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:24pm

re: #129 Gus 802

Oh brother.

Remember... DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.

/whew

148 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:38pm

re: #138 FurryOldGuyJeans

USING science and scientific research is still science. Building a bomb is using science.

sigh,.,,,, Are they using the BOMB to FURTHER their scientific beleif?

149 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:45pm

re: #50 Bubblehead II
Europa.
Didn't you see 2010?

150 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:00:51pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

Medved on Intelligent Design: It's Not a Theory

151 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:01:42pm

re: #134 jvic

There's an enormous difference between saying that an Intelligence set off the Big Bang and saying that that Intelligence intervened on our infinitesimal speck of this. The IDers are trying to get their stuff into biology classes first, not into physics classes.

Phillips' piece is either very uninformed or very disingenuous.

This is why the Catholic Church, for one example, has come out and stated that ID isn't just bad science, but also bad theology.

152 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:02:17pm

re: #147 freetoken

Remember... DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.

/whew

I won't. I was saying "oh brother" about her. I'm not anything like a devout fan of her by any means. Read her stuff a few times here and there but never encountered this anti-science aspect of hers.

153 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:02:49pm

re: #40 austin_blue

Yet he will never admit that human mitochondria are incorporated bacterium.

Odd, isn't it?

ALL animal mitochondria. Not to mention all plant chloroplasts.

154 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:03:23pm

re: #145 Ojoe

By the same measure they do not "get" Christianity.

Indeed.

155 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:03:44pm

re: #125 Charles

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

All too easy to reject other sciences when once you start down the path by rejecting one.

156 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:03:46pm

re: #41 MikeySDCA

ID is of course the argument from design of Descartes as a proof of the existence of God. The argument is circular, as Immanuel Kant showed.

Actually, the argument from design was most succinctly put forward by William Paley, in 1802.

157 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:04:40pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

Why? He doesn't beleive the earth was created 6,00 years ago !?!?!

He is a "Senior Fellow" at the Discovery Institute. I didn't even realize this until one day recently, I heard him mention he would be speaking at a DI event. He does claim not to "agree" with them "on every issue", but I'm unclear what that means at this point.

158 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:05:21pm

re: #144 The Shadow Do

No, but if you are didactic in your faith and literal in your interpretations then you are probably a strong candidate for foolishness regardless of your religious branding.

My immediate family is hard-shell southern Baptist. But every one of them believe in the evolution of God's creation.

159 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:06:14pm

re: #54 pjaicomo

You can see it however you like, it's not a religion.

Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hairstyle.

160 Liberal Classic  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:06:16pm

re: #74 MikeySDCA

Global warming is junk science in the service of political correctness.

I disagree. The science behind climate change is sound. I will agree that the political solutions offered to combat global warming are misguided at best, but that does not change the fact that releasing large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere will it more opaque at infrared wavelengths thus increasing the greenhouse effect.

Global warming theory is no more junk than evolutionary theory.

161 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:06:17pm

re: #150 Charles

Medved on Intelligent Design: It's Not a Theory

Thank you. I think I missed that thread, but I'll read it now.

162 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:07pm

re: #159 Salamantis

Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hairstyle.

Haha, I wear both proudly.

163 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:24pm

re: #113 Jim in Virginia

OT- this is passing strange. There's an ad on the front page for Muslima.com, the international Muslim matrimonial site.
Some hot looking chicks, too.

Jim in VA -

Bet she would be even better looking without that "tea towel" on her head. Look at some pictures published by Michael J. Totten of women in Lebanon and Kosovo and I think you will agree.

-S-

164 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:30pm

re: #105 spacejesus

I used to love when you could use the mouse wheel to scroll through threads like this looking for comments with lots of red negative karma and laugh at them. I miss the creationists.

where has all the fun gone?

Yeah, it's been too long since we saw the immortal words "I am not a creationist and I love this website but I have to say...."

165 Digital Display  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:45pm

Hi Lizards! Dr. Pamela Gay's Astronomy Twitters has gone off the chart..
Really some world class scientists over there...
[Link: www.starstryder.com...]

166 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:49pm

re: #60 yochanan

Iran getting a nuke worries me, Pakistan falling and AL quada getting nukes worries me.

i don't believe in mixing science and politics or science and religion.

But mixing them is precisely what the people pushing to have cretionism/ID taught in public schools are doing.

167 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:07:52pm

re: #153 Salamantis

ALL animal mitochondria. Not to mention all plant chloroplasts.

Yup. The little engines that DO, with their own set of genetic material separate from the larger host into which they have been incorporated.

168 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:08:11pm

re: #81 Bubblehead II

There was a probe sent to Titan already. The Huygens Probe.

Thanks for the link.

The HASI subsystem also contains a microphone, which was used to record any acoustic events during probe's descent and landing;[3] this was the first time in history that audible sounds from another planetary body had been recorded.
169 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:08:59pm

re: #71 FurryOldGuyJeans

I can guarantee you that if you had said what you did in #18 in front of or to the people I know who are both VERY religious and science rationalists, you would have been called on the carpet for both a smear and not thinking logically.

Did you read the article? Charles asked a rhetorical question about how Ms. Phillips came to write the article.

I just speculated on the reason Ms. Phillips wrote the article.

It's been my experience that people who believe (and therefore feel compelled to defend the belief by writing) in Creationism, ID, Creationism-ID, creator, supreme being, G-d, Allah tend to be, religious.

How is that illogical?

170 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:09:20pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

I put Michael Medved in the same category as David Klinghoffer, but that's just me.

171 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:09:37pm

re: #164 Jimmah

Yeah, it's been too long since we saw the immortal words "I am not a creationist and I love this website but I have to say...."

The problem is that they all seem to eventually freak out, post insults, tell me I'm doomed to hell, and get blocked.

172 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:10:37pm

re: #87 freetoken

PZ Myers' take on Ms Phillips from last year.

You mean it's all my fault?

Uh oh...

And now Mrs. Phillips I am offended:

"...this financial breakdown, moreover, as being not merely a moral crisis but the monetary expression of the broader degradation of our values - the erosion of duty and responsibility to others in favour of instant gratification, unlimited demands repackaged as 'rights' and the loss of self-discipline. And the root cause of that erosion is 'militant atheism' ...."


Uh oh... no it's: Oh shit!

173 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:10:47pm

re: #148 sattv4u2

sigh,.,,,, Are they using the BOMB to FURTHER their scientific beleif?

I am just seeing and saying things from a different perspective. The radical Islamists and Jihadis are using the fruits of science to further their religious and political aims. Just as "the West" does. The DI is using modern technology for religious and political ends.

174 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:13pm

re: #171 Charles

The problem is that they all seem to eventually freak out, post insults, tell me I'm doomed to hell, and get blocked.

Haha.

LGF FAQ:

#137: Damnation of Charles' immortal soul is an immediate banishment.

175 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:18pm

re: #160 Liberal Classic

I disagree. The science behind climate change is sound. I will agree that the political solutions offered to combat global warming are misguided at best, but that does not change the fact that releasing large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere will it more opaque at infrared wavelengths thus increasing the greenhouse effect.

Global warming theory is no more junk than evolutionary theory.

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

176 paint-right  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:39pm

re: #139 buzzsawmonkey

Religion is not supposed to deal with reason. Religion exists to address that large portion of the human psyche which is non-rational. Properly sequestered from each other, the rational and the non-rational parts of the human makeup both flourish and complement each other, but they must be kept separate to do so.

I disagree. My religion ( can't speak for the others) is practical, rational and makes a lot of sense. Yes, it addresses emotional and psychical areas as well as rational thought and discourse, but reason does not have to be suspended to believe.

IMHO

177 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:44pm

re: #170 Alouette

I put Michael Medved in the same category as David Klinghoffer, but that's just me.

Lady- you crack me up.

178 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:11:51pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

What is your point here?

179 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:13:23pm

OT ,, this is surreal

I have no idea what/ why yet, but for a client I'm taking in a satellite feed. Warren Buffet is sitting at a 4 person table with lots of othre 4 person tables around him playing cards (looks like bridge) in a malls food court.

just sayin!

180 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:13:37pm

re: #172 callahan23

Uh oh... no it's: Oh shit!

Reading list:

Michael Medved
Melanie Phillips

181 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:14:34pm

re: #143 _RememberTonyC

OT ... But this is an outstanding column from the great Victor Davis Hanson:

[Link: victorhanson.com...]

He has a way of cutting through the BS that is matched only by Charles Krauthammer.


Krauthammer:
Phony Theory, False Conflict
'Intelligent Design' Foolishly Pits Evolution Against Faith

182 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:15:26pm

re: #137 capitalist piglet

I have to assume Michael Medved is persona non grata on LGF, or would he be in a similar category to Ms. Phillips? I've always wondered about that.

He IS a fellow at the Disco Institute...

/just sayin'...

183 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:15:36pm

re: #180 Gus 802

Reading list:

Michael Medved
Melanie Phillips

I still read Medved, I just recognize there is a bias there.

184 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:16:20pm

re: #182 Salamantis

He IS a fellow at the Disco Institute...

/just sayin'...

I have heard that is the case, is there a link you have handy for it?

185 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:17:17pm

re: #183 FurryOldGuyJeans

I still read Medved, I just recognize there is a bias there.

Right. I have to admit he does make good arguments on other issues from time to time. Just thought my list would look empty with just Melanie Phillips. ;)

186 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:17:22pm

re: #171 Charles

Yep. They're an uncivil as well as a deeply dishonest bunch.

187 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:18:34pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

"Liberal Classic" is exactly right - it's completely non-controversial to say that increasing the CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere will cause the average temperature to rise. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and there's no serious scientist anywhere who denies this.

It's not a "hoax."

188 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:18:36pm
189 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:19:12pm

re: #171 Charles

The problem is that they all seem to eventually freak out, post insults, tell me I'm doomed to hell, and get blocked.

But they do provide a bit of entertainment and a respite from boredom for the few moments of their meltdown.

190 Liberal Classic  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:19:15pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

I'm sorry, but what?

After water vapor, carbon dioxide is the single most important greenhouse gas. It accounts for about 10-20% of all the energy absorbed by the atmosphere even though it only comprises less than 1% of the atmosphere. A small increase in the the amount of atmospheric carbon dioxide will, over time, have an effect on the climate -- and we're releasing gigatons of it annually.

As I've said, I don't believe in the efficacy and wisdom of the political solutions offered to counter the problem. But this is not the same thing as saying the problem doesn't exist, or is a hoax.

191 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:19:51pm

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

Moreover, since science essentially takes us wherever the evidence leads, the findings of more than 50 years of DNA research - which have revealed the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life - have thrown into doubt the theory that life emerged spontaneously in a random universe.

These findings have given rise to a school of scientists promoting the theory of Intelligent Design, which suggests that some force embodying purpose and foresight lay behind the origin of the universe.

While this theory is, of course, open to vigorous counter-argument, people such as Prof Dawkins and others have gone to great lengths to stop it being advanced at all, on the grounds that it denies scientific evidence such as the fossil record and is therefore worthless.

Yet distinguished scientists have been hounded and their careers jeopardised for arguing that the fossil record has got a giant hole in it. Some 570 million years ago, in a period known as the Cambrian Explosion, most forms of complex animal life emerged seemingly without any evolutionary trail.

These scientists argue that only 'rational agents' could have possessed the ability to design and organise such complex systems.

Whether or not they are right (and I don't know), their scientific argument about the absence of evidence to support the claim that life spontaneously created itself is being stifled - on the totally perverse grounds that this argument does not conform to the rules of science which require evidence to support a theory.

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

192 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:20:29pm

I'm back. Lots of noise, wind and rain, but no good discharges/stikes.

193 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:20:46pm

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

194 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:17pm
195 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:19pm

re: #193 freetoken

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

Deflection.

196 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:21pm

re: #184 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have heard that is the case, is there a link you have handy for it?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

197 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:29pm

re: #193 freetoken

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

Interesting, isn't it?

198 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:34pm

re: #179 sattv4u2

OT ,, this is surreal

I have no idea what/ why yet, but for a client I'm taking in a satellite feed. Warren Buffet is sitting at a 4 person table with lots of othre 4 person tables around him playing cards (looks like bridge) in a malls food court.

just sayin!

UPDATE

Buffett is now drinking what looks like a Coke out of a clear plastic cup!

(hey ,, so sue me,,, i've been here at work alone for 8 1/2 hours and have another 3 1/2 to go !)

199 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:21:43pm

re: #191 freetoken

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

Not really, she might have arrived at these conclusions independently. Only time will tell.

200 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:43pm

re: #190 Liberal Classic

Well I think it is better to say "effect" than "problem"; perhaps we are staving off the next ice age, and perhaps temporarily at that.

I have never seen a scientific argument that the Earth has gotten out of its recent (geological) condition of repeating ice ages.

Which maybe were brought on by having too much sequestered carbon.

201 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:48pm

re: #196 Salamantis

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I thank you, sir. The links I had become 404 fodder.

202 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:51pm
203 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:22:54pm

By the way:
re: #88 Sharmuta
re: #112 buzzsawmonkey
Green hearted those two. Instant classics for me.

204 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:23:20pm

The only thing Phillips said I agreed with was this:

The confusion arises partly out of ignorance, with people lazily confusing belief in a Creator with Creationism.

That's true- many people here on LGF have called themselves "Creationists" because they believe in God as a creator, but they would go on to say they accept the veracity of evolution. Creationists reject evolution, but this doesn't stop some people from wanting to be called something they're not anyways.

I didn't appreciate Phillips' title, "Creating An Insult To Intelligence". What's insulting to intelligence is rejecting empirical data that has been collected for 150 years now and that completely validates Darwin and his theory.

205 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:23:31pm

re: #175 Soona'

Please tell that to all the volcanoes, so they won't erupt anymore. While you're at it, tell the plants not to breath so as to more quickly prove this political hoax.

I think climatology is where evolution was in the 50's. The data looks good. The models are a work in progress, but generally confirm theory. Evolution didn't get really solid across the board until regressive gene sequencing became the engine that confirmed the overarching theory. It's hard to argue with all that gattaca, but the DI still does, or tries to. It's a losing proposition for them. We'll see what happens with AGW.

206 paint-right  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:24:10pm

re: #188 buzzsawmonkey

Ok I get what is on the "non -rational side" what is left on the other?

the lab?

You also obviously see 'religion" as a development or construct of human need, with no external reality or proveability.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:24:15pm

UPDATE #2

Bill Gates is now in the seat across from Buffett!

209 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:24:22pm

re: #202 buzzsawmonkey

Speaking of which, just how long is Will Tell's overture?

Long enough to put me to sleep. ;)

210 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:11pm

re: #193 freetoken

Why do these discussions about evolution/creationism seem to always turn to climate change?

And eventually to Hitler.

211 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:13pm

re: #206 paint-right

Ok I get what is on the "non -rational side" what is left on the other?

the lab?

You also obviously see 'religion" as a development or construct of human need, with no external reality or proveability.

It definitionally CANNOT have an external provability, and, thus, from a rationalist standpoint, it cannot be observe as reality.

212 rightymouse  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:13pm

I'll give Melanie the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. The terms 'creationism' and 'intelligent design' were very confusing to me at first. I did not realize that they were tied to young earthers and those who believe that all living things were created in their current form. Am a Christian, but definitely NOT a young earther - mostly because I'm not a Biblical literalist. Can't be. Dad was a Biblical translator and told me things that would make many literalists cringe. Doesn't change our basic faith in G-d. Just keeps things in perspective.

213 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:18pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Bigfoot posts here sometimes.

BBL

214 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:25:23pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Michael Medved believes there is "persuasive evidence for Bigfoot."

Which gives even more persuasive evidence there is a brain missing.

215 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:26:05pm

re: #210 HelloDare

And eventually to Hitler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

216 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:26:24pm

re: #212 rightymouse

Read freetoken's comments on this thread, and you might change your mind.

217 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:26:49pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Michael Medved believes there is "persuasive evidence for Bigfoot."

Harry and the Henderson's isn't a documentary, damn.

218 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:27:33pm

re: #178 pjaicomo

What is your point here?

There is not a majority opionion, as the data is studied, of scientists that are convince that gw is even happening. Moreover, the number of scientists that believe we're going into a period of global cooling is growing. There are too many variables to measure to get a complete picture of exactly how the climate operates. Plus, as I was pointing out, there's really no firm knowledge as to how much volcanoes and other geological events affect the atmosphere. One of the biggies that have been pointed out in many rebuttals of the computor models used is that they do not include the effects of the sun on the planet.

219 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:27:33pm

BTW, that last link I got from a Myers article that was referencing a Dawkins article, and apparently there is ascribed to Ms. Phillips as part of her on-going war against Dawkins.

One thing I've noticed is that some writers have articles that don't obviously come up on a Google search, yet can be found indirectly. Google, for all of its power, could use some fine tuning.

220 FamHistoryGuy  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:27:53pm

re: #187 Charles

Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get.

221 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:28:28pm

re: #217 DEZes

Harry and the Henderson's isn't a documentary, damn.

What about that new movie about a Middle Eastern camelswine flu?

/The Swinedromedary Strain

222 HelloDare  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:28:49pm

re: #217 DEZes

Harry and the Henderson's isn't a documentary, damn.

Medved does not, I repeat, does not believe in Crocoduck.

223 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:28:50pm

re: #191 freetoken

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

She's probably there already. Was looking at this:

These scientists argue that only 'rational agents' could have possessed the ability to design and organise such complex systems.

Whether or not they are right (and I don't know), their scientific argument about the absence of evidence to support the claim that life spontaneously created itself is being stifled - on the totally perverse grounds that this argument does not conform to the rules of science which require evidence to support a theory.

Where in the world did she pick up "rational agents" as being what caused the "organization and design" of biological forms? Does she consider science as being merely a rational agent? Does she want to study astronomy based on irrational agents or perhaps astrology? Then she goes on to say that they are being opposed on perverse grounds -- which means she considers science perverse.

224 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:29:22pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

UPDATE #2

Bill Gates is now in the seat across from Buffett!

So Bill Gates and Warren Buffet play bridge at the mall? Do you think they have a regular foursome with Alan Greenspan and Steve Jobs, or is it just a pick-up game?

BTW, it's pouring in Cobb County. I got the dog walked just in time, but Mr. Doppel got caught in the rain while running. He enjoyed it, though.

225 paint-right  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:31:01pm

re: #211 pjaicomo

It definitionally CANNOT have an external provability, and, thus, from a rationalist standpoint, it cannot be observe as reality.

Well, I disagree , but I can't prove it. LOL

226 Liberal Classic  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:31:11pm

re: #200 Ojoe

Well I think it is better to say "effect" than "problem"; perhaps we are staving off the next ice age, and perhaps temporarily at that.

I have never seen a scientific argument that the Earth has gotten out of its recent (geological) condition of repeating ice ages.

Which maybe were brought on by having too much sequestered carbon.


This is an interesting speculation. We're in an interglacial period now. Will the earth experience another period of glaciation, or leave glaciation all together? No one really knows.

The politicians are (as usual) asking the wrong question. They're asking "how do we stop global warming?" The real question IMO is how will human civilization cope with climate change. It's either going to be rising seas or glaciers.

227 LemonJoose  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:14pm

I am all for keeping ID out of secondary school classrooms as long as there is not enough evidence to make it worthy of discussion in that setting as an alternative scientific theory. I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

The intricacy and elegance of many biological systems and features is indeed amazing. Asking questions about the gaps and unexplained jumps in the evolution of these complex systems is how we will fill in our knowledge gaps with real scientific knowledge, and not simply remain content with assumptions of "unknown evolutionary process not yet explained" as a convenient, lazy way to blanket over our ignorance.

228 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:22pm

re: #224 doppelganglander

So Bill Gates and Warren Buffet play bridge at the mall? Do you think they have a regular foursome with Alan Greenspan and Steve Jobs, or is it just a pick-up game?

BTW, it's pouring in Cobb County. I got the dog walked just in time, but Mr. Doppel got caught in the rain while running. He enjoyed it, though.

Not raining at all here near Emory, although 20 minutes ago it was only "partly" cloudy, now 100% cloud cover.

I'm trying to find out what mall they're at

(((God,, I need to get a hobby !)))

229 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:27pm

re: #191 freetoken

I see she is another one who finds it necessary to whinily describe criticism as 'bashing'.

230 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:32:33pm

re: #187 Charles

"Liberal Classic" is exactly right - it's completely non-controversial to say that increasing the CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere will cause the average temperature to rise. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and there's no serious scientist anywhere who denies this.

It's not a "hoax."

Again, I'm not discrediting the fact that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. I'm taking his comment as a whole. The impression that was left with me was that global warming is a fact, when it isn't.

231 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:33:36pm

re: #225 paint-right

Well, I disagree , but I can't prove it. LOL

We can happily settle on that. :)

232 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:33:57pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

Which "gaps and flaws" are those?

233 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:34:17pm

re: #222 HelloDare

Medved does not, I repeat, does not believe in Crocoduck.

WTH, It must be related to T-rex.
And instead of quaking it sounds like a garage disposal.
Bigfoot was ll the rage in the 70's.
Medved has some sound financial advice, but 3 legs do not make a good rocker.

234 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:06pm

re: #228 sattv4u2

Not raining at all here near Emory, although 20 minutes ago it was only "partly" cloudy, now 100% cloud cover.

I'm trying to find out what mall they're at

(((God,, I need to get a hobby !)))

It's moving pretty fast. I give it less than an hour to reach you.

Maybe it's not bridge. Maybe they're preparing for the World Series of Poker. Let me know if you see a guy with a hoodie and sunglasses.

235 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:43pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

Newsflash: Scientists already know how to do science and don't need your 'advice'.

236 rightymouse  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:51pm

re: #216 Sharmuta

Read freetoken's comments on this thread, and you might change your mind.

It's very difficult at first, to some, that the world was not created in its perfect form 6000 years ago or whatever and has never changed. It's also difficult for many to think that perhaps there was a supreme being involved in the beginning many gazillion years ago.

237 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:35:54pm
238 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:36:53pm

Man, I am going to become more active on LGF. There is way more going on that on my normal vinyl board haunt.

239 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:12pm

re: #229 Jimmah

I see she is another one who finds it necessary to whinily describe criticism as 'bashing'.

Now that is a very unfair characterization, and I'm going to have a hissy fit and temper tantrum just to prove it. ;)

240 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:19pm

re: #125 Charles

Oh no. She's an anti-vaxer too. Arg.

Some days I feel like the whole world is going insane around me.

As far as I am concerned this whole ID notion is pure crap. In my opinion it is a contrived attempt of the religious to reconcile the inherently irreconcilable contradiction between religion and science.

Although I will defend to the death the right of others to follow any religion they want, I personally believe "God" (Allah, Christ, Yaweh, whatever) is a man made artifice designed to comfort those scared of the dark.

We are specks of Carbon floating in an eternal void. There is no one watching. Deal with it.

241 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:25pm

re: #191 freetoken

Funny thing about that article (linked in the entry to which this is a reply), the Daily Mail refuses to add the by-line (of "Melanie Phillips") to it. Now, I may be wrongly crediting it to her, but one of the comments to that article directly addresses Ms. Phillips as the author, and Myers/Dawkins act like it is her. So I will say I am only 99% that it is her writing...

/just dotting my i's and crossing my t's....

242 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:30pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

I am all for keeping ID out of secondary school classrooms as long as there is not enough evidence to make it worthy of discussion in that setting as an alternative scientific theory. I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

The intricacy and elegance of many biological systems and features is indeed amazing. Asking questions about the gaps and unexplained jumps in the evolution of these complex systems is how we will fill in our knowledge gaps with real scientific knowledge, and not simply remain content with assumptions of "unknown evolutionary process not yet explained" as a convenient, lazy way to blanket over our ignorance.

Anyone who is able to empirically disprove the central tenets of evolution (random genetic mutation, nonrandom environmental selection) is guaranteed a tenured position at an Ivy League institution, fat research grants for life, a bestselling book, and a prominent mention in the history of science.

Yet after 150 years of trying, no one on the scientific merry go round has yet been able to grasp that brass platinum ring. Perhaps because it isn't there to be grasped.

243 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:37:32pm

re: #232 Charles

Which "gaps and flaws" are those?

The "missing link"?

244 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:04pm

re: #243 Soona'

The "missing link"?

Hahahaha

245 judithet  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:13pm

I like Melanie Phillips and I read her regularly but she was lividly, virulently, supportive of the expulsion from Gaza--and very nasty with her critics. Apparently, all that is necessary to convince her about any position is to put "intelligent" in front of it and she buys it.

246 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:16pm
247 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:29pm

Also, Ms. Phillips really does have a long history on the MMR ---> autism stuff. She appears to have been one of the major popularizers of it in the UK.

248 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:38:29pm

re: #243 Soona'

The "missing link"?

What about me?

249 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:03pm

we know what we know we don't know what we don't know.

250 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:07pm

re: #236 rightymouse

It's very difficult at first, to some, that the world was not created in its perfect form 6000 years ago or whatever and has never changed. It's also difficult for many to think that perhaps there was a supreme being involved in the beginning many gazillion years ago.

I agree- but she has a long history of this. I still respect her work concerning the islamization of the UK, but when it comes to science, she has no credibility.

251 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:30pm

re: #246 buzzsawmonkey

There's a missing lynx? Can't those damn zoos lock their cages?

I thought she(?) was talking about that extra link sausage I stole at breakfast this morning. ;)

252 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:42pm

re: #248 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me?

Your not missing. ;)

253 nyc redneck  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:44pm

i disagree w/ her totally on this
but i look at all the other important work she has done.
i respect her immensely.
she us a strong and courageous voice against the onslaught of islamic jihad.
(i am curious abt. her take on creationism but it is not a deal breaker for me)

254 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:47pm

re: #246 buzzsawmonkey

There's a missing lynx? Can't those damn zoos lock their cages?

I don't know, but there's a cougar on the loose in Florida. Keep your sons indoors.

255 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:57pm

re: #249 yochanan

we know what we know we don't know what we don't know.

Well, there are also things we know we don't know.

256 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:39:59pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

I am all for keeping ID out of secondary school classrooms as long as there is not enough evidence to make it worthy of discussion in that setting as an alternative scientific theory. I sometimes worry though that there exists a knee-jerk scientific orthodoxy which makes it difficult career-wise for scientists in the field to ask legitimate questions about gaps or flaws in evolutionary theory without immediately being branded as having a secret religious agenda.

The intricacy and elegance of many biological systems and features is indeed amazing. Asking questions about the gaps and unexplained jumps in the evolution of these complex systems is how we will fill in our knowledge gaps with real scientific knowledge, and not simply remain content with assumptions of "unknown evolutionary process not yet explained" as a convenient, lazy way to blanket over our ignorance.

If a scientist sees a gap or flaw in the science their job isn't to merely voice an opinion. It has to be presented in an organized manner and presented as a scientific paper backed with hard science and data which is then presented for peer review. As long as their method and reasoning fits within the parameters of accepted science and methods they are not branded as zealots. If however they see a gap or flaw based on magical thinking then their career is at risk since magical thinking is not a part of science.

257 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:40:24pm

re: #252 DEZes

Your not missing. ;)

I'm not? Well, damn! ;)

258 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:40:29pm

re: #254 doppelganglander

I don't know, but there's a cougar on the loose in Florida. Keep your sons indoors.

I will keep my eyes peeled in Gainesville.

259 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:41:14pm

re: #255 pjaicomo

Well, there are also things we know we don't know.

And there are other things we don't know we know.

/ is anyone else getting a headache?

260 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:41:15pm

re: #257 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm not? Well, damn! ;)

Did you mention sausage. mmmmmmm.

261 austin_blue  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:41:43pm

re: #218 Soona'

There is not a majority opionion, as the data is studied, of scientists that are convince that gw is even happening. Moreover, the number of scientists that believe we're going into a period of global cooling is growing. There are too many variables to measure to get a complete picture of exactly how the climate operates. Plus, as I was pointing out, there's really no firm knowledge as to how much volcanoes and other geological events affect the atmosphere. One of the biggies that have been pointed out in many rebuttals of the computor models used is that they do not include the effects of the sun on the planet.

Hey, Soona', check this out:

[Link: cce.890m.com...]

It's a great primer for the state of the science and the associated debate. I think you will find that some of your statements aren't grounded in fact. This guide is heavily researched and every position is footnoted. Good stuff!

262 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:42:55pm

re: #260 DEZes

Did you mention sausage. mmmmmmm.

Hashbrowns, eggs, sausage, and toast. Yeah, I did mention it in passing. ;)

263 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:43:25pm

re: #262 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hashbrowns, eggs, sausage, and toast. Yeah, I did mention it in passing. ;)

Breakfast is overrated. Just sayin'.

264 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:43:31pm

re: #262 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hashbrowns, eggs, sausage, and toast. Yeah, I did mention it in passing. ;)

It's suppertime, but I am suddenly hungry for breakfast.

265 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:13pm

re: #258 pjaicomo

i thought cougars were past getting preg?

266 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:29pm
267 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:37pm

re: #248 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me?

Let me see now. Yeah, you might just be what Darwin and all the other paeleontologists were looking for. Okay. That's one mystery that's been solved.

268 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:50pm

re: #264 reine.de.tout

It's suppertime, but I am suddenly hungry for breakfast.

We have breakfast for dinner every now and then. Pancakes or waffles, scrambled eggs, bacon or sausage -- mmm.

269 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:50pm

re: #265 yochanan

i thought cougars were past getting preg?

Well, if she is already pregnant, I am definitely not going to have to worry about it.

270 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:44:59pm

Off to play 'Call of Cthulthu' for a while. Got some business to take care of in Innsbrook. BBL

271 rightymouse  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:45:08pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

I agree- but she has a long history of this. I still respect her work concerning the islamization of the UK, but when it comes to science, she has no credibility.

I'll bow to those who have read her the most.

In the meantime, it's dinner time here at Chez mousey. So I'm going to nosh on steak. :)

272 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:45:17pm

re: #264 reine.de.tout

It's suppertime, but I am suddenly hungry for breakfast.

I usually eat what I want when I want. Many a time have I had what people consider breakfast food for supper, and dining food for to break my fast. Lunch is, well, whatever. ;)

273 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:45:51pm

I love having breakfast for dinner.

274 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:12pm

Melanie Melanie Melanie, we love you -- or used to love you, until we saw this column yesterday -- but you have got to drop this "intelligent design" insanity as soon as you possibly can. You've apparently been misled, and you think that you're taking the "conservative" position or the "skeptics" position by denying evolution. But all you're doing is taking the fool's position, and it is a tragedy to watch.

Evolution is not a conservative/liberal issue: It's simply basic science. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

If you think that "intelligent design" is in any way scientifically defensible, you obviously don't even know what evolutionary theory even is.

Please, please, i beg of you to study up on this issue before writing about it again. And if you really want to become a heroine, retract the embarrassing statements you made in this column. Otherwise, you risk losing millions of fans and, more importantly, your credibility.

275 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:12pm

re: #267 Soona'

Let me see now. Yeah, you might just be what Darwin and all the other paeleontologists were looking for. Okay. That's one mystery that's been solved.

Yeah, but so many other questions would be asked about me as well. I am a mystery even to myself.

276 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:13pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

Not at 4AM after a lengthy tour of the nightspots, it ain't.

Are you currently in Moscow that it's 4am for you?

277 pjaicomo  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:46:26pm

Off to study. Torts exam on wednesday.

278 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:09pm

re: #251 FurryOldGuyJeans

I thought she(?) was talking about that extra link sausage I stole at breakfast this morning. ;)

He. I'm a he. (sheesh)

279 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:10pm

re: #267 Soona'

Let me see now. Yeah, you might just be what Darwin and all the other paeleontologists were looking for. Okay. That's one mystery that's been solved.

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

280 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:17pm
281 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:47:41pm

re: #246 buzzsawmonkey

I don't know about any missing lynx, but there is a missing cougar in Florida

282 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:48:59pm

re: #274 zombie

Science asks people to THINK, Creationism demands people to BELIEVE.

283 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:49:27pm

re: #281 Bubblehead II

I don't know about any missing lynx, but there is a missing cougar in Florida

I am not in FLA, I tell ya!

284 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:49:57pm

re: #280 buzzsawmonkey

No, just remembering my misspent youth.

I am still spending mine. ;)

285 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:00pm

re: #255 pjaicomo

Well, there are also things we know we don't know.

Known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

286 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:05pm

re: #274 zombie

Melanie Melanie Melanie, we love you -- or used to love you, until we saw this column yesterday -- but you have got to drop this "intelligent design" insanity as soon as you possibly can. You've apparently been misled, and you think that you're taking the "conservative" position or the "skeptics" position by denying evolution. But all you're doing is taking the fool's position, and it is a tragedy to watch.

Evolution is not a conservative/liberal issue: It's simply basic science. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

If you think that "intelligent design" is in any way scientifically defensible, you obviously don't even know what evolutionary theory even is.

Please, please, i beg of you to study up on this issue before writing about it again. And if you really want to become a heroine, retract the embarrassing statements you made in this column. Otherwise, you risk losing millions of fans and, more importantly, your credibility.

Many religious jews don't believe in evolution. If you believe in the Torah, you can't believe in evolution, they are mutually exclusive.

287 brookly red  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:42pm

re: #285 Jim in Virginia

Known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

maybe.

288 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:44pm

re: #282 FurryOldGuyJeans

Science asks people to THINK, Creationism demands people to BELIEVE.

Science has to do with what one derives from the PRESENCE of empirical evidence; religion has to do with what one embraces in its ABSENCE.

289 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:50:48pm

re: #279 Salamantis

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

The fruitfly?

290 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:14pm

re: #286 onepistoffyid

Many religious jews don't believe in evolution. If you believe in the Torah, you can't believe in evolution, they are mutually exclusive.

Fine by me. Religious people can have whatever beliefs they want.

Just don't try to pass it off as science.

291 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:30pm

re: #280 buzzsawmonkey

No, just remembering my misspent youth.

Ah those times! I'll try to relive some of that again when I am free of matrimonial bonds.

292 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:35pm

Stealth dinger going to town.

293 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:51:38pm

re: #227 LemonJoose

Any gaps or flaws in a theory are at least normal.
Dinosaurs are for the most part a recent discovery, Darwin never had the chance to study them, but that does not prove his theory wrong or show flaws.
Are there missing links, well yes. A billion or so years is gonna cover cover up a whole lot of unknown and undiscovered life.
Nature has a way of hiding its past, not out of spite, just with change.

294 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:08pm

re: #288 Salamantis

Science has to do with what one derives from the PRESENCE of empirical evidence; religion has to do with what one embraces in its ABSENCE.

Exactamudo.

295 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:22pm

re: #279 Salamantis

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

The one thing I have always wondered, though, is if we are so close to chimpanzees genetically, then why has there never been a strain of chimp flu that runs rampant through the human population, having to exclude the closer contact pigs have with humans on average.

296 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:25pm
297 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:52:36pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

I would sure like to catch those characters in a dark room with a clue bat.

298 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:07pm

people aren't all or nothing none of us are. if you think people have to be good luck with that one.

299 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:12pm

re: #288 Salamantis

Science has to do with what one derives from the PRESENCE of empirical evidence; religion has to do with what one embraces in its ABSENCE.

I just said it differently. ;)

300 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:17pm

re: #279 Salamantis

Well, the artifactual retroviral evidence derived from comparing the sequenced genomes of humans and chimpanzees conclusively demonstrates that we and they evolutionarily diverged and descended from an ancient common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

I can see it now: intelligent design "scientists" refuting retroviral science and taking on the human genome project. We all await to see their "scientific" paper regarding these matters. //

301 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:17pm

re: #285 Jim in Virginia

Known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns.

Good old Rumsfeld; he always had a way with the press...

/with a proper course of action in Iraq, not so much...

302 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:26pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Got a NIC and thread?

303 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:28pm

re: #297 pingjockey

I would sure like to catch those characters in a dark room with a clue bat.

This one has made exactly zero comments.

304 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:29pm

re: #274 zombie

Melanie Melanie Melanie, we love you -- or used to love you, until we saw this column yesterday -- but you have got to drop this "intelligent design" insanity as soon as you possibly can.

This is not a new obsession of hers.

From 2007: Losing faith in reason

In suggesting that life sprang into existence without any kind of governing intelligence, they fly in the face of the evidence emerging from science that the hitherto unimaginable complexity of life forms, including the living cell, makes it scientifically impossible for life to have emerged without some kind of intelligent design.

Nevertheless, the Dawkins-ites are lionised as apostles of reason. Meanwhile, those scientists who are doing what scientists are supposed to do — follow where the evidence leads them — and who have concluded as a result that life was created by a guiding intelligence, are hysterically smeared by the Dawkins camp.

/Are we sure the woman isn't one of DI's scholars?

305 LemonJoose  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:34pm

re: #232 Charles

Which "gaps and flaws" are those?

There are billions of years of evolutionary changes that we weren't around to observe. If we were able to fill in those information gaps (e.g. with new fossil discoveries or even laboratory experiments) we would increase our knowledge of how these changes occurred. Ask any paleontologist or evolutionary biologist if there are things that they wish they had more data points about because it would help explain the currently unexplained and in the process as a nice bonus it might help shut the creationists up.

306 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:36pm
307 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:53:47pm

re: #289 Soona'

The fruitfly?

No, the ancestor was a hominid.

308 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:54:41pm

re: #302 Bubblehead II

Got a NIC and thread?

Most of the threads on the front page dealing with creationism and kooks.

309 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:05pm

re: #295 FurryOldGuyJeans
Your last sentence. We aren't in close enough contact with them enough of the time for the bugs to cross over and mutate. IMO. In Asia and other places where the swine and avain strains start, people are literally living with the animals.

310 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:21pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Stealth dinger going to town.

Name?

311 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:25pm

re: #290 zombie

Fine by me. Religious people can have whatever beliefs they want.

Just don't try to pass it off as science.

Agreed. I am a jew but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the fairy tales in the Torah (Noah's Ark, the Red Sea parting, etc.). I never believed that crap and never will. That doesn't make me any less Jewish, and wouldn't have save my ass in Poland in 1942. Melanie may be one of those who feels that she has to tow the line for credibility and consistency.

312 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:49pm
313 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:55:50pm

re: #296 buzzsawmonkey

Did matrimonial bonds take the same beating in the market as the regular kind?

Mine did. My marriage is ended. But in contrast to the market amicably.

314 Ojoe  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:10pm

re: #226 Liberal Classic

Or, third possibility, we release the right amount of sequestered carbon and happily stay right where we are in the current interglacial.

Which would please all the people who cannot stand change.

I suppose that might just happen.

315 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:18pm

re: #304 freetoken

/Are we sure the woman isn't one of DI's scholars?

She's rather thick headed isn't she? Intelligent design doesn't even follow accepted scientific practice. It would be as if though she wanted ESP to be respected by telecommunications engineers.

316 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:36pm

re: #303 Sharmuta
One of 'those' chicken shits.

317 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:56:43pm

re: #293 DEZes

Any gaps or flaws in a theory are at least normal.
Dinosaurs are for the most part a recent discovery, Darwin never had the chance to study them, but that does not prove his theory wrong or show flaws.
Are there missing links, well yes. A billion or so years is gonna cover cover up a whole lot of unknown and undiscovered life.
Nature has a way of hiding its past, not out of spite, just with change.

And when such a significantly small sample of past life expires in such a way as to avoid predation AND allow for preservation, it is not at all hard to understand why there are perceived missing links.

318 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:03pm

if you asked someone 200 years ago about space flight they would think you were nuts just wondering what we will beable to do 200 years from now that today we don't have a clue.

319 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:05pm

re: #295 FurryOldGuyJeans

The one thing I have always wondered, though, is if we are so close to chimpanzees genetically, then why has there never been a strain of chimp flu that runs rampant through the human population, having to exclude the closer contact pigs have with humans on average.

It could be that the chimpanzee population is too small and spread out to provide a sufficient base within which such a virus could evolve.

320 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:21pm

re: #313 callahan23

Mine did. My marriage is ended. But in contrast to the market amicably.

It maybe over, but if it ended amicably, it says volumes about you and your x.

321 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:47pm

re: #306 Iron Fist

Climate change is real enough, but that isn't really the issue. The climate is always changing. It has been changing for litterally billions of years before the advent of mankind, let alone the Industrial Revolution. The answer to the problem (if problem it is) doesn't lie in simply destroying America's post-Industrial Revolution economy. Any proposal that purports to try and reduce/slow/reverse climate change that specifically excludes the largest polluters in the world isn't serious. Or, it may be serious enough, but it isn't serious about climate change. It is about economics and taking the United States down a peg or ten.

Also, I look at the personal behavior of the proponants of this shit (Farnan's lawsuit had cited more than 20 inflammatory statements attributed to Corbett, including "Conservatives don't want women to avoid pregnancies – that's interfering with God's work" and "When you pray for divine intervention, you're hoping that the spaghetti monster will help you get what you want."

In an April 3 tentative ruling, however, Selna dismissed all but two of the statements as either not directly referring to religion or as being appropriate in the context of a class lecture, including the headline-grabbing "When you put on your Jesus glasses, you can't see the truth."

ecially Al Gore) and note that their energy consumption dosen't look like they really believe in the snake oil they are selling. They want you and I to drastically reduce our standard of living while they live in the lap of modern luxury and jet around the world in private jets. That shit has to end before I'll even give serious consideration to the "problem".

Man will never control the climate. But we're great at adapting to it.

322 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:57:58pm

re: #308 Sharmuta

Guess I should just fire up the LGF spy and take a look see then.

323 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:58:31pm

re: #317 FurryOldGuyJeans

And when such a significantly small sample of past life expires in such a way as to avoid predation AND allow for preservation, it is not at all hard to understand why there are perceived missing links.

Exactly, its like my cell phone.

324 Wild Knight  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:05pm

I've got a story for Charles and it makes me really heavy-hearted to recount it. I've got friends from the very upper-crust of English society. It is a family so ancient that Burke's peerage notes simply that they were "nobilis ante conquestum". Think Brideshead and you've got. Now, although they come from a long line of recusants they are absolutely irreligious. They've all had the kind of education which comes with their class and have extremely sober jobs in finance and academia. Well, one night, recently, having heard that the whole family had returned home from London, I popped by at their house for an evening of booze and tobacco. Out of the blue, I don't know how, the topic of evolution came around. Believe me, I could only attend in astonishment as they denied evolution and produced a whole host of arguments against it - underpinning their position by claiming that life on earth originated from an alien intelligence. They were dead serious. To say that I was stunned is an understatment. It is beginning to appear to me that this insanity is not specifically linked to religion if even non-believers get bitten by the bug. It is evident that the fundamental problem lies with decades of extremely poor education and the gullibility attendant upon such poor education. At this stage, I am ready to believe that this "intelligent design" malaise has roots that go far deeper than left vs right, believers vs. non-believers. The whole problem lies with the rotten core of an education that has been hijacked by Marxists professors of pedagogy whose only concern is to undermine "elitist" subjects and methodologies. This is the harvest we're sowing.

325 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:27pm

re: #292 Sharmuta

Stealth dinger going to town.

RTH615?

326 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:38pm
327 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:38pm

re: #208 HelloDare

Michael Medved believes there is "persuasive evidence for Bigfoot."

Cryptozoology

/Coming to a science class nearest you.

328 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 3:59:39pm

re: #303 Sharmuta

This one has made exactly zero comments.

Kinda the reason why, if it were up to me, someone would have to have a number of comments under the belt before they get the privilege to judge the rest of us.

329 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:00:07pm

re: #320 DEZes

It maybe over, but if it ended amicably, it says volumes about you and your x.

Thanks {DEZes}

330 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:00:10pm

re: #318 yochanan

if you asked someone 200 years ago about space flight they would think you were nuts just wondering what we will beable to do 200 years from now that today we don't have a clue.

The folks back then would have been shocked not just by space flight, but also by the vast majority of modern technology. And you're right- we have no idea what developments await future generations, except that if we undermine science education, those advances will be delayed, and who knows what the cost of that might be.

331 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:00:32pm

re: #325 Charles

RTH615?

Yes, Sir.

332 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:01:23pm

re: #319 Salamantis

It could be that the chimpanzee population is too small and spread out to provide a sufficient base within which such a virus could evolve.

I think it would be an interesting thing to research, considering the news.

333 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:01:58pm
334 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:10pm

Or how about this classic from 2006:

The lure of The Da Vinci Code

The reason is the inadequacy of scientific evolutionary theory to meet the extravagant claims by secularists that it explains the origins of life itself. This inadequacy - and the increasing number of scientists who are acknowledging it - has created growing pressure from evangelical Christians to include ‘creationism’ or its more sophisticated variant, intelligent design, in the school science syllabus, downgrading evolution from the way it is currently taught as unchallengeable fact to a mere theory alongside religious belief.

This movement is growing so fast that the more prominent atheists are becoming ever shriller in their denunciations. Last weekend Professor Colin Blakemore, head of the Medical Research Council, even used the arrival of bird flu on British shores to beat the drum for Darwin and claim that there was no intelligent design in a virus, only the mindless force of natural selection.

Now the discovery in Canada of the fossilised remains of Tiktaalik Roseae, a creature that was half fish, half land animal and which lived more than 375 million years ago, is being said to prove that mankind descended from fish. One might retain a measure of scepticism about such an excitable claim, since in itself this fossil proves nothing of the sort.

For many, the claim that evolution enabled life to cross the species barrier so that humans are merely the last link in the evolutionary chain remains a step too far — not least because, by the standards science itself sets, it fails the test of evidence. It is merely a theory.

To go even further, as some scientists do, and make the leap from evolutionary theory to the claim that this somehow explains the origin of life itself clearly fails the test of logic. The assertion by some scientists that the world probably began without any beginning sounds to many as preposterous as the belief that the world was created in six days sounds to an atheist.

Scientific knowledge may have dealt a serious blow to religious belief, but science does not fill the gaps in our understanding of existence. It does not explain the irreduceable complexity of certain cells for example, which cannot have been formed by simple organisms coming together. And contrary to Darwin’s theory that evolution is a slow and continuous process, the fossil record itself shows long periods where nothing happened and then several new species — just like buses — came along at once.

OK, I'm calling it - She is a shill for the DI.

/either that, or she is married to a dentist from Texas

335 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:34pm

re: #331 Sharmuta

Yes, Sir.

Now I know why I am bleeding karma.

336 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:52pm

re: #307 Salamantis

No, the ancestor was a hominid.

What about me? You guys keep talking about me when my attention is elsewhere. ;)

337 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:52pm

science education with out morals and values science can create evil just look at the last century.

in and of itself it is neither good nor bad.

338 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:02:54pm

re: #334 freetoken

Or how about this classic from 2006:

The lure of The Da Vinci Code

OK, I'm calling it - She is a shill for the DI.

/either that, or she is married to a dentist from Texas

LOL @ the dentist crack.

339 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:03:28pm

re: #327 Gus 802
I live up here in the Northwest and a lot of folks think there may be something out there, but and everybody agrees, if the damn thing is more evolved than a chimp it may bury its dead. Until we find a body I'm withholding judgement. Remember though, the ceolcanth wasn't rediscivered until 1935 and the mountain gorrilla till 1900. We are still finding oddball critters.

340 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:04:28pm

re: #336 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me? You guys keep talking about me when my attention is elsewhere. ;)

Your ancestor was a stooge.

/hominahominahominid...;~)

341 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:04:35pm

re: #334 freetoken

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

This inadequacy - and the increasing number of scientists who are acknowledging it - has created growing pressure from evangelical Christians to include ‘creationism’ or its more sophisticated variant, intelligent design

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

342 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:04:59pm

re: #325 Charles

RTH615?

What a record that stealth dinger has:
RTH615
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 12, 2008 at 1:02 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of links posted: 1

GOSH!

343 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:05:27pm

re: #342 callahan23

What a record that stealth dinger has:
RTH615
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 12, 2008 at 1:02 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of links posted: 1

GOSH!

Not anymore.

344 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:05:34pm

re: #340 Salamantis

Your ancestor was a stooge.

/hominahominahominid...;~)

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk! ;)

345 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:05:35pm

re: #336 FurryOldGuyJeans

What about me? You guys keep talking about me when my attention is elsewhere. ;)

We're just waiting for Charles to put up a hominid thread.

346 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:06:09pm

re: #343 Sharmuta
Heh.

347 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:06:15pm

The Vatican is looking into genetically modified food.....
Pros and cons of genetic modification: Not your typical food fight

In an effort to find out whether genetically modified organisms harm human health or not, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences will be holding a study week in mid-May to hear what the scientific community has to say.

"There is a lot of propaganda being used by the two sides," Bishop Marcelo Sanchez Sorondo, the academy's chancellor, told Catholic News Service April 29. "And for exactly that reason some scientific clarity is needed" to determine how safe these organisms are.
.....
The majority of the 41 speakers listed on the academy's Web site support the use of modified crops for boosting food production and the creation of new sources of energy from nonfood crops. The bishop said that's because there are very few scientists who oppose the use of genetically modified organisms.

Even though it looks like most participants already agree that genetic modification should play a key role in fighting world hunger, Bishop Sanchez believes there will be a lively debate and some disagreement.

348 SpaceJesus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:06:50pm

re: #277 pjaicomo

Off to study. Torts exam on wednesday.


torts in the spring?

349 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:07pm

re: #324 Wild Knight

It is beginning to appear to me that this insanity is not specifically linked to religion if even non-believers get bitten by the bug. It is evident that the fundamental problem lies with decades of extremely poor education and the gullibility attendant upon such poor education. At this stage, I am ready to believe that this "intelligent design" malaise has roots that go far deeper than left vs right, believers vs. non-believers. The whole problem lies with the rotten core of an education that has been hijacked by Marxists professors of pedagogy whose only concern is to undermine "elitist" subjects and methodologies. This is the harvest we're sowing.

My greatest regret is that I have but one upding to give for that most incisive and outstanding comment.

350 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:26pm
351 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:34pm

re: #341 Sharmuta

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

This inadequacy - and the increasing number of scientists who are acknowledging it - has created growing pressure from evangelical Christians to include ‘creationism’ or its more sophisticated variant, intelligent design

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

Wow. OK. I didn't want to believe she was being deliberately dishonest, but that makes it really difficult.

352 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:35pm

re: #342 callahan23

What a record that stealth dinger has:
RTH615
Karma: 0
Registered since: Jun 12, 2008 at 1:02 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 0
No. of links posted: 1

GOSH!

Heh, its karma was two points over its IQ.
Yeah I know that would be a negative IQ.

353 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:38pm

re: #326 Iron Fist

Blended post. I must have poped in my clipboard contents. Sorry about that.

Better than blended scotch, I must say.

354 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:07:39pm

For the aviation nuts.....
Bristol Brabazon

I like the narrator.

355 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:08:51pm
356 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:09:18pm

re: #283 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am not in FLA, I tell ya!

You're probably too old for her anyway. ;)

357 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:09:31pm

re: #341 Sharmuta

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

Ok, DI shill is back on the menu and looking to be the only thing left to choose.

358 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:09:50pm

re: #341 Sharmuta

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

Sharmuta gets the gold star!

359 altermite  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:07pm

re: #337 yochanan

Science does not create evil. Evil people create evil, and frequently those evil people don't understand the science, and are politicizing the bits they do not understand. I think you are refering to eugenics, which is an excellent example of people not understanding science, and polticizing the bits thy think they do to fit their own radical agenda.

360 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:17pm

re: #356 doppelganglander

You're probably too old for her anyway. ;)

I will be too old when I am 3 days dead and buried. ;)

361 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:22pm

I opened registration a little while ago without announcing it.

A previously banned person almost immediately tried to register three sock puppet accounts.

362 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:45pm

re: #357 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ok, DI shill is back on the menu and looking to be the only thing left to choose.

Maybe it pays better.

363 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:10:54pm

re: #361 Charles
Goddamn rat bastards.

364 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:11:16pm

re: #361 Charles

I opened registration a little while ago without announcing it.

A previously banned person almost immediately tried to register three sock puppet accounts.

THREE?!? Persistent little cuss, wasn't he?

365 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:11:37pm

re: #360 FurryOldGuyJeans

I will be too old when I am 3 days dead and buried. ;)

Your only as old as the women you feel.
I wish I knew the comedians name that said that.

366 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:13pm

re: #358 freetoken

Sharmuta gets the gold star!

Yea! I will put it in my little book. ;)

367 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:36pm

re: #356 doppelganglander

You're probably too old for her anyway. ;)

You're only as old as the girls you feel.

368 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:46pm

re: #366 Sharmuta

Yea! I will put it in my little book. ;)

put it on the cover. ;)
Good work.

369 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:12:49pm

re: #191 freetoken

Ms Phillips definitely has history on this issue...

Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

/Is it too soon to call her a shill for the DI?

re: #304 freetoken

/Are we sure the woman isn't one of DI's scholars?

re: #334 freetoken

Or how about this classic from 2006:

The lure of The Da Vinci Code

OK, I'm calling it - She is a shill for the DI.

/either that, or she is married to a dentist from Texas

Oh dear oh dear.

It may be time to put some Weird Al Yankovic on the turntable:

Another One 'Neath the Bus:

370 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:13:03pm

Has anyone emailed Melanie a link to this thread?

/Sal loves exploding heads...

371 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:13:24pm
372 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:13:42pm

re: #368 DEZes

put it on the cover. ;)
Good work.

I'm going to share it with freetoken, since I couldn't have spotted that without freetoken digging up the article.

373 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:14:08pm

re: #339 pingjockey

I live up here in the Northwest and a lot of folks think there may be something out there, but and everybody agrees, if the damn thing is more evolved than a chimp it may bury its dead. Until we find a body I'm withholding judgement. Remember though, the ceolcanth wasn't rediscivered until 1935 and the mountain gorrilla till 1900. We are still finding oddball critters.

If it was a mountain gorilla which would be the closest approximation they would at least find remains, bones, habitat, etc. Until then it is just a legend and useless for scientific study. Unless I am mistaken there isn't any record of North American gorillas which makes even the possibility highly unlikely. It could be based on an actual human such as what one might see withYu Zhenhuan.

It does however make for entertaining campfire stories like the Jersey Devil.

374 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:14:32pm
375 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:14:40pm

re: #371 DEZes

I dont touch girls libtard.
Up yours.

Ah my bad, sorry avanti.
Charles please delete my 371.

376 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:05pm

re: #365 DEZes

Your only as old as the women you feel.
I wish I knew the comedians name that said that.

Sounds like either Groucho or Zero Mostel. Both were randy buggers.

377 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:08pm

re: #361 Charles

I opened registration a little while ago without announcing it.

A previously banned person almost immediately tried to register three sock puppet accounts.

Opening registration into an ID thread. That's just mean, Charles.
//

378 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:18pm

re: #370 Salamantis

Has anyone emailed Melanie a link to this thread?

/Sal loves exploding heads...

As long as it happens at your house, I have no problem with that

(I just painted and put in new carpets!)

379 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:26pm
380 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:32pm

re: #373 Gus 802

If it was a mountain gorilla which would be the closest approximation they would at least find remains, bones, habitat, etc. Until then it is just a legend and useless for scientific study. Unless I am mistaken there isn't any record of North American gorillas which makes even the possibility highly unlikely. It could be based on an actual human such as what one might see withYu Zhenhuan.

It does however make for entertaining campfire stories like the Jersey Devil.

Here in Florida we have a similar sasquatch myth; ours is called the Skunk Ape.

381 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:41pm

re: #373 Gus 802
That is about all it's good for. Lots of really neat stories, but NO physical evidence, feces, hair, bones, nada, zip.

382 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:15:49pm

re: #376 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sounds like either Groucho or Zero Mostel. Both were randy buggers.

I think it was Groucho, but not sure.

383 SpaceJesus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:24pm

re: #374 Iron Fist

I can't imagine the craziness needed to obsessively watch LGF waiting to register a sock-puppet that I have to know isn't going to last very long once I start using it. It's really nuts.


welcome to the internet

384 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:25pm

re: #380 Salamantis

Here in Florida we have a similar sasquatch myth; ours is called the Skunk Ape.

Skunk ape? Wow, I'd hate to run into that. //

385 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:33pm

re: #324 Wild Knight

...Believe me, I could only attend in astonishment as they denied evolution and produced a whole host of arguments against it - underpinning their position by claiming that life on earth originated from an alien intelligence. They were dead serious. To say that I was stunned is an understatement. ...

That is what made me be worlds apart to my to-be ex wife. Now you Lizards understand better.
Oh, and it is her who subscribes to this kind of nonsense. Not that I needed to clarify this point. ;-)

386 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:16:52pm

re: #379 Iron Fist

Yeah, I thought that comment was pretty creepy, myself.

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

387 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:25pm

re: #380 Salamantis

in chicagostan it is about a homeless guy named FRED who is also seen on a bike.

388 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:30pm

re: #377 Soona'

Opening registration into an ID thread. That's just mean, Charles.
//

But it does get the meltdowns started much earlier so we don't have to wait months and months for the sockpuppets to surface.

389 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:38pm

re: #386 DEZes

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

That's why women should be called women and not girls.

390 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:38pm

re: #375 DEZes

Ah my bad, sorry avanti.
Charles please delete my 371.

No problem, I have no idea what you said meant, I was just repeating a old line. :)

391 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:42pm

re: #373 Gus 802

If it was a mountain gorilla which would be the closest approximation they would at least find remains, bones, habitat, etc. Until then it is just a legend and useless for scientific study. Unless I am mistaken there isn't any record of North American gorillas which makes even the possibility highly unlikely. It could be based on an actual human such as what one might see withYu Zhenhuan.

It does however make for entertaining campfire stories like the Jersey Devil.

What do you mean, no North American gorillas. I had two of them throw me out of a bar once.

392 zombie  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:46pm

re: #374 Iron Fist

I can't imagine the craziness needed to obsessively watch LGF waiting to register a sock-puppet that I have to know isn't going to last very long once I start using it. It's really nuts.

I predict that soon, "LGF Stalkerology" will become one of the main categories of political dementia in this country, alongside 9/11-Truthism, the Grassy Knoll, and the need to preserve our PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS.

393 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:17:55pm

re: #380 Salamantis

Here in Florida we have a similar sasquatch myth; ours is called the Skunk Ape.

A big stinky ape....
Stinksquatch.

394 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:18:38pm

re: #379 Iron Fist

Yeah, I thought that comment was pretty creepy, myself.

I found it a lot more than just pretty creepy. Revolting, actually.

395 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:04pm

re: #390 avanti

No problem, I have no idea what you said meant, I was just repeating a old line. :)

I said the same line up thread using women, the term girls set me off.

396 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:27pm

re: #391 Soona'

What do you mean, no North American gorillas. I had two of them throw me out of a bar once.

Hominoidea "Bouncer" Bartenderus //

397 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:41pm

re: #386 DEZes

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

I think the same way, so you didn't jump if I was on the jury.

398 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:19:59pm
399 altermite  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:20:26pm

re: #383 SpaceJesus

I'm not a crazy, but I did just register. I decided to create an account after lurking a while, and the registration button said it might open up on the afternoon over the weekend, so I checked then. I'd guess that might be the same rationale the other person used.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, this place gets a lot of traffic.

400 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:20:44pm

Women = females over 18
Girls = females under 18

401 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:20:45pm

re: #386 DEZes

I may have jumped the shark cussing him, I think of girls as kids.
It hit me way wrong.

OK, got it, sorry, but I call even middle aged women girls all the time and don't think a thing about it. Trust me pedophilia was not the intent. :)

402 Lynn B.  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:21:04pm

re: #286 onepistoffyid

Many religious jews don't believe in evolution. If you believe in the Torah, you can't believe in evolution, they are mutually exclusive.

Sorry, but that's just totally wrong. For one example (among very many), see the book Alouette linked earlier in this thread

The Challenge of Creation: Judaism's Encounter with Science, Cosmology, and Evolution

and read the reviews for more background on the author and his position.

403 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:21:39pm

re: #399 altermite
Welcome, and yes this place is busier than I-5 at rush hour!

404 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:10pm

re: #398 Iron Fist

I'm too old to touch anyone I would consider a "girl". Even if they are legal, it isn't my cup of tea. Women would have been a less ambiguous term.

Who would want green wood when one can have seasoned fruit ripened on the vine? Clumsy puppy enthusiasm is no substitute for the expertise born of experience.

405 KingKenrod  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:10pm

60 Minutes is running a story now about how the Saudis are trying to
rehabilitate jihadis. Should be good for a puke and a giggle.

406 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:34pm

re: #403 pingjockey

Welcome, and yes this place is busier than I-5 at rush hour!

Stay out of the left lane! Especially if one is new.

//

407 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:22:39pm

re: #400 pingjockey

Women = females over 18
Girls = females under 18

So the over/ under is 18?

You'll get 20 to life on the under!

408 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:23:04pm

re: #401 avanti

OK, got it, sorry, but I call even middle aged women girls all the time and don't think a thing about it. Trust me pedophilia was not the intent. :)

I understand, I am just real touchy about boys and girls.
I call those children.

409 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:23:23pm

re: #404 Salamantis

Who would want green wood when one can have seasoned fruit ripened on the vine? Clumsy puppy enthusiasm is no substitute for the expertise born of experience.

As one of my friends puts it, he prefers the sadder but wiser woman.
/The Music Man
//The original lyric says "girl" but I'm not setting that one off again.

410 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:23:44pm

re: #407 sattv4u2
That is just my way of seperating women from girls. Now me being my age, women under 30 are girls!

411 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:02pm

re: #400 pingjockey

Women = females over 18
Girls = females under 18

Must be a generational thing. My wife has a girls night out and she's in her 50's. Again, it's quite a stretch to think I was suggesting kids.

412 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:08pm

re: #389 Sharmuta

That's why women should be called women and not girls.

I agree, but I can't help mentioning this:

Some female comedian had a sitcom back in the day, don't recall her name though.

In one episode her supervisor kept referring to her as "girl". A female co-worker told her that it was sexist and she shouldn't put up with that.

Her response was "Sweetie, I can hide a can of cat food under each breast. If he wants to call me a girl I'm gonna let him".

413 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:08pm

I like women over 40. They don't yell, they don't swell, they don't tell, and they're grateful as Hell.

/old Redd Foxx joke

414 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:24:12pm

re: #398 Iron Fist

I'm too old to touch anyone I would consider a "girl". Even if they are legal, it isn't my cup of tea. Women would have been a less ambiguous term.

That's why I've started to call them "human females".

415 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:25:06pm
416 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:25:37pm

re: #411 avanti
I hear ya. My wife also has a girls night out. I think they call it that because it sounds better than womens night out!

417 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:25:41pm

re: #412 Slumbering Behemoth

I agree, but I can't help mentioning this:

Some female comedian had a sitcom back in the day, don't recall her name though.

In one episode her supervisor kept referring to her as "girl". A female co-worker told her that it was sexist and she shouldn't put up with that.

Her response was "Sweetie, I can hide a can of cat food under each breast. If he wants to call me a girl I'm gonna let him".

I remember that line! It might have been "Grace Under Fire."

418 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:25:56pm

re: #400 pingjockey

Women = females over 18
Girls = females under 18

What about females who are *18*?

419 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:26:29pm

re: #412 Slumbering Behemoth

It's just interesting that grown women will still get called "girl", but a grown man is rarely, if ever, called "boy".

420 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:26:37pm

when did the term 'guys' become a genderless term?

421 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:11pm

re: #187 Charles

"Liberal Classic" is exactly right - it's completely non-controversial to say that increasing the CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere will cause the average temperature to rise. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and there's no serious scientist anywhere who denies this.

It's not a "hoax."

Charles -

With ALL due respect. What about the science that says that CO2 is a lagging indicator of warming - much as the Stock Market is a lagging indicator of the economy - Pray Tell? CO2 emissions can be mitigated by planting and growing MORE of our Green Friends - a/k/a - Plants. Even the Jewish scholars recognized this "Way Back When" - when asked what to do about "the Messiah" if you were planting a Tree first, the advice was -
FIRST - Plant the Tree, NEXT - Welcome the Messiah. seems to me the Talmudists got it about right. The Messianic Period will be in Human years and terms, the Trees will last much longer.

-S-

-S-

422 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:13pm

re: #420 yochanan

when did the term 'guys' become a genderless term?

When the feminists took offense at the term "dolls"?

423 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:15pm

re: #418 MandyManners

lucky

424 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:15pm

re: #418 MandyManners
Then they are women. Quit being picky, sheesh. :)

425 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:20pm

re: #410 pingjockey

That is just my way of seperating women from girls. Now me being my age, women under 30 are girls!

When I was in the Navy checking ID's at the EM club, I'd always card the women in 30-40's with "Can I see some ID girls ?" That was always a hit. :)

426 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:40pm

re: #422 Sharmuta

When the feminists took offense at the term "dolls"?

Guys and Dolls//

427 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:45pm

re: #418 MandyManners

What about females who are *18*?

depends on their othre "numbers" !

//duckin

428 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:46pm

re: #309 pingjockey

Your last sentence. We aren't in close enough contact with them enough of the time for the bugs to cross over and mutate. IMO. In Asia and other places where the swine and avain strains start, people are literally living with the animals.

My last sentence was for life, as pronounced by the minister marrying us. Got out after only 8 years for what she called bad behaviour.

429 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:27:55pm

re: #418 MandyManners

What about females who are *18*?

Human female.

430 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:28:14pm

Is "RTH615" a code for some new kind of swine flu?

431 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:28:22pm

re: #419 Sharmuta
Only if some of my troops pissed me off, or a good 'ol boy cop down south
will call grown men boy!

432 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:28:27pm

re: #425 avanti

When I was in the Navy checking ID's at the EM club, I'd always card the women in 30-40's with "Can I see some ID girls ?" That was always a hit. :)

If it had been me, you would have gotten hit.

433 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:28:40pm
434 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:28:44pm

re: #419 Sharmuta

It's just interesting that grown women will still get called "girl", but a grown man is rarely, if ever, called "boy".

Which is why I don't call women anything but.

435 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:07pm

re: #430 Zimriel

Is "RTH615" a code for some new kind of swine flu?

no ,, it's my LGF password! How did you get that !?!?!

//

436 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:22pm

re: #429 Soona'

Human female.

That sounds like something Quark might say... next you'll be demanding they stay in the house naked and chew your food for you

437 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:25pm

re: #431 pingjockey

Only if some of my troops pissed me off, or a good 'ol boy cop down south
will call grown men boy!

Funny- because while I was writing that, I did consider the stereotypical southern law enforcement officer. They also like to use "son".

438 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:25pm

re: #417 doppelganglander

I remember that line! It might have been "Grace Under Fire."

That's the one! The comedians name is Brett Butler. Thanks for jogging my memory.

439 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:29pm

"A woman is like a cheese souffle. When new, the outside is smooth and golden, but the inside is yet unsettled, however, with the passage of time, the outside becomes cracked and dry, but at last the inside comes into its own."

- Benjamin Franklin

440 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:43pm

re: #433 Iron Fist

If you call a man "boy" it is generally derogatory.

Unless he's a cowboy. //

441 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:47pm

re: #428 FurryOldGuyJeans
Mwahahahaha! Oh wow!

442 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:29:50pm

re: #422 Sharmuta

When the feminists took offense at the term "dolls"?

What about "Toots".
/hiding now

443 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:30:31pm

re: #433 Iron Fist

If you call a man "boy" it is generally derogatory.

But not if a woman is called "girl". Why?

444 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:30:40pm

re: #430 Zimriel

Is "RTH615" a code for some new kind of swine flu?

Nope, just dead troll meat; was a stealth downdinger with ZERO comments to his credit.

445 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:30:56pm

*wanders into the melee swinging wildly*

What's up?

446 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:31:02pm

re: #408 DEZes

I understand, I am just real touchy about boys and girls.
I call those children.

Just as long as you don't get touchy-feely with them!

/

447 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:31:20pm

re: #437 Sharmuta

Funny- because while I was writing that, I did consider the stereotypical southern law enforcement officer. They also like to use "son".

Or "sport" - arguably the douchiest "endearment" ever thought up. I borrowed that to throw at a few of our trolls, a couple times, but it made me feel unclean.

448 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:31:29pm

re: #437 Sharmuta
Yep. And I know a handful of said officers and if they come up and use the term 'boy' you are getting a ticket for doing something dumb.

449 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:31:33pm

re: #445 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You have a new avatar! Cute.

450 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:31:41pm

re: #419 Sharmuta

It's just interesting that grown women will still get called "girl", but a grown man is rarely, if ever, called "boy".

It is interesting, however the use of "boy" when referring to a man can have some rather ugly racial implications.

451 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:31:45pm

re: #443 Sharmuta

But not if a woman is called "girl". Why?

there is no justice...proof

452 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:31:55pm

re: #432 doppelganglander

If it had been me, you would have gotten hit.

I would have been filing a complaint with the base CO.

453 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:32:48pm
454 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:33:05pm

re: #436 Zimriel

That sounds like something Quark might say... next you'll be demanding they stay in the house naked and chew your food for you

Okay, everyone. Would it be appropriate for me to upding this comment?

455 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:33:07pm

re: #443 Sharmuta

But not if a woman is called "girl". Why?

I find both derogatory when applied to adults.

I guess some people just can't get the inherent sexism involved with the double standard.

456 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:33:23pm

re: #422 Sharmuta

When the feminists took offense at the term "dolls"?

I thought that the correlative term to 'guys' was 'gals.'

457 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:33:40pm

re: #411 avanti

Must be a generational thing. My wife has a girls night out and she's in her 50's. Again, it's quite a stretch to think I was suggesting kids.

Its not all that much of a stretch, perverts are all over the net.
I am sorry if I attacked you unduly, but words mean things.
Just be more careful with them and people here would be less likely to jump.

458 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:33:49pm

re: #432 doppelganglander

If it had been me, you would have gotten hit.

Yea, you might be right. It was a different world 40 years ago. I can't even always get away with a "sweetie" anymore, unless I'm in the south. I never though calling a woman a girl could be a insult, I'm getting old.

459 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:33:59pm

context matter here i think.

460 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:34:06pm

re: #456 Salamantis

I thought that the correlative term to 'guys' was 'gals.'

It's a musical, Sala.

461 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:34:10pm

re: #422 Sharmuta

When the feminists took offense at the term "dolls"?

sharmuta -

Can you accept the term - "Women?" "Dolls" USED to be a term of affection. Same/Such Terms have fallen on Hard Times. Women, are slightly more than half of Human Society. Being a Woman carries NO SHAME - In Fact, Women are the Vessel of Human Survival/Civilization. Do all 'y'all have a problem with that? Pray Tell?

-S-

462 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:34:33pm

re: #446 Salamantis

Just as long as you don't get touchy-feely with them!

/

No feely the kids. bad Mojo.

463 debutaunt  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:34:45pm

re: #367 avanti

*Shudder*

464 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:34:58pm
465 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:35:15pm

re: #461 Dr. Shalit

I personally can't take offense at being called "doll", because it was the affectionate nic name my step-mother had for me.

466 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:36:00pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

Just don't call me late for cake.

467 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:36:34pm

re: #458 avanti

Yea, you might be right. It was a different world 40 years ago. I can't even always get away with a "sweetie" anymore, unless I'm in the south. I never though calling a woman a girl could be a insult, I'm getting old.

My brother used to call people "sweetie" all the time here in Texas. Tried that out at Trinity College in Connecticut - BAM! "Sexual harassment".

468 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:36:38pm

re: #464 buzzsawmonkey

Where the hell did you put out your nets, and what were you trying to catch?

Women silly.

469 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:37:24pm

re: #468 DEZes

Women silly.

As opposed to silly women?

/ ducks

470 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:37:40pm

re: #460 Sharmuta

It's a musical, Sala.

I knew that.

I also figure that 'gals' originated as a slang term for 'girls', but doesn't seem to ppossess its underage connotative baggage.

471 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:37:50pm

re: #449 Sharmuta

Naw, that one is old. He had it this morning.

And as far as addressing the opposite gender, When they are alone, Ma'am and if in a group, Ladies.

Mother was strict about that

/And yes, I will still open a door for a Lady

472 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:38:17pm

re: #453 buzzsawmonkey

It is usually part of a racial slur or an implication that someone is homosexual, e.g., "the boys in the band."

?

I had better warn the "Old Boy Network" and the "Good Old Boys".

473 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:38:40pm

re: #469 FurryOldGuyJeans

As opposed to silly women?

/ ducks

/ You quacks me up.

474 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:38:58pm

At one job I had, one supervisor would always call me "squirt". He did this deliberately to try to piss me off, because he was a dick and he didn't like me.

I didn't let it get to me, though, because the little fucker was a full foot shorter than me, and I ain't that tall.

475 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:39:06pm

re: #466 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just don't call me late for cake.

I had cake today!

Happy Birthday to OLT's older father, now 74.

476 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:39:10pm

re: #471 Bubblehead II

Naw, that one is old. He had it this morning.

And as far as addressing the opposite gender, When they are alone, Ma'am and if in a group, Ladies.

Mother was strict about that

/And yes, I will still open a door for a Lady

southern boy?

477 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:39:38pm

re: #473 DEZes

/ You quacks me up.

One good tern deserves another. ;)

478 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:39:42pm
479 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:39:44pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

I personally can't take offense at being called "doll", because it was the affectionate nic name my step-mother had for me.

Sharmuta -

"Thanx" That is all. This is the "West" - We Love/Respect our Women. We, at times being Men and Women, disagree. We do NOT, generally seek to subjugate each other by a "flip of the coin" gender assignment, which itself is NOT perfect.

-S-

480 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:40:00pm

re: #475 OldLineTexan

I had cake today!

Happy Birthday to OLT's older father, now 74.

a fine age...I hope he enjoys jolly good health

481 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:41:02pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

Slang terms for women that have not been heard in decades:

Broad
Twist
Head
Bint
Skirt
Dame

The work of James Ellroy contains a few I don't think I can use on a family blog.

482 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:41:15pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

Slang terms for women that have not been heard in decades:

Broad
Twist
Head
Bint
Skirt
Dame

And not a moment too soon, I say.

483 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:41:21pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

Twist? Head? Bint? I have never heard those before as slang for women. I can't even imagine the context.

484 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:41:40pm

"I don't care whether or not I'm first with a woman, as long as I am her last."

- Ted Bundy

/now THERE was one sick puppy

485 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:41:43pm

re: #475 OldLineTexan

Ha! Reminded me of a one of the Wayans brother's movie, his father was younger than he was.

Something about "Drinking your Juice in the Hood, While..."

486 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:41:58pm

re: #474 Slumbering Behemoth

At one job I had, one supervisor would always call me "squirt". He did this deliberately to try to piss me off, because he was a dick and he didn't like me.

I didn't let it get to me, though, because the little fucker was a full foot shorter than me, and I ain't that tall.

HA!

OK, story I heard at a party lat night from an ex-coach:

This guy was the "re-entry" coach at a high school for kids getting out of jail, rehab, gang programs, etc. One kid was a really short freshman with a serious attitude. One day, Coach told him "B., you're the coolest guy I know." B replied, "Yeah Coach, I am pretty dope". Coach added , "Under four feet tall, I mean."

487 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:42:01pm

re: #481 doppelganglander

The work of James Ellroy contains a few I don't think I can use on a family blog.

A few of those were used by Bogart.
Just saying.

488 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:42:32pm

re: #476 albusteve

southern boy?

Southern Idaho. Was taught to treat women with respect even if they may not have deserved it.

489 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:42:38pm

re: #452 FurryOldGuyJeans

I would have been filing a complaint with the base CO.

Yep, way out of touch with the modern world. Back then, asking a girl/woman in her 30's for ID made their evening, now I'm getting a court martial.
Never dreamed I'd be down dinged for calling the young as the girls you feel line either. It honestly never occurred to me that anyone would think I was referring to a child.

490 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:42:46pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

"Dame" was last heard at the local high school production of 'South Pacific'. ;D

491 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:42:55pm

re: #480 albusteve

a fine age...I hope he enjoys jolly good health

He is doing just great, thank you.

492 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:43:07pm

re: #465 Sharmuta

I personally can't take offense at being called "doll", because it was the affectionate nic name my step-mother had for me.

Context matters, also, but I would never demean myself or others using such.

493 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:43:15pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

cup cake
shisksa

494 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:43:27pm

re: #475 OldLineTexan

I had cake today!

Happy Birthday to OLT's older father, now 74.

Congrats!

And...I'll bite.

You're older father?

495 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:43:44pm

re: #475 OldLineTexan

I had cake today!

Happy Birthday to OLT's older father, now 74.

Congratulations to your father.
My old man is having his 74th in 5 days.He is still going strong and riding his Harley Davidson with joy. :-D

496 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:43:46pm

re: #392 zombie

I predict that soon, "LGF Stalkerology" will become one of the main categories of political dementia in this country, alongside 9/11-Truthism, the Grassy Knoll, and the need to preserve our PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS.

Excuse me zombie, but preserving our precious bodily fluids is NOT political dementia. ITts serious business.
////

497 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:43:55pm

re: #483 Slumbering Behemoth

Twist? Head? Bint? I have never heard those before as slang for women. I can't even imagine the context.

Those are the same three I had never heard.

498 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:01pm
499 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:02pm

re: #471 Bubblehead II

Naw, that one is old. He had it this morning.

And as far as addressing the opposite gender, When they are alone, Ma'am and if in a group, Ladies.

Mother was strict about that

/And yes, I will still open a door for a Lady

Ma'am ? crap, if I called a female friend Ma'am, I'd get a shin kick. :)

500 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:10pm

re: #489 avanti

It honestly never occurred to me

Seems to be a recurring theme with you

just sayin!

501 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:17pm

sugar pie, honey bun

502 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:32pm

re: #495 callahan23

Who's Joy, Harry?

503 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:35pm

re: #484 Salamantis

"I don't care whether or not I'm first with a woman, as long as I am her last."

- Ted Bundy

/now THERE was one sick puppy

Ted Bundy. May you feel that first jolt of electricity for eternity.

504 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:35pm

re: #470 Salamantis

I knew that.

I also figure that 'gals' originated as a slang term for 'girls', but doesn't seem to ppossess its underage connotative baggage.

Buffalo gals won't you come out tonight
Come out tonight, come out tonight
Buffalo gals won't you come out tonight
And dance by the light of the moon

505 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:51pm

re: #489 avanti

I would never been so crass. Respect was the norm as far back as I can remember.

506 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:44:59pm

re: #494 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Congrats!

And...I'll bite.

You're older father?

He used to be younger.

507 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:45:14pm

re: #499 avanti

Ma'am ? crap, if I called a female friend Ma'am, I'd get a shin kick. :)

That's a good point. I don't like being called "ma'am". Always call a woman "Miss". We love that.

508 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:45:18pm

re: #469 FurryOldGuyJeans

As opposed to silly women?

/ ducks

FurryOldGuyJeans -

Last I "Cogitated" it - we are BOYS - AND - we are GIRLS - we see the world through somewhat different lenses, leaving out the "in-betweens" of which there are some.

As long as our Males and Females decide for Freedom - Who Cares?

That is all.

-S-

509 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:45:19pm

re: #499 avanti

Ma'am ? crap, if I called a female friend Ma'am, I'd get a shin kick. :)

See, thats what wee are saying. ;)

510 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:45:19pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

Those are modifications on the word "boy," which remove the homosexual implication. Free-standing, "boy" has a homosexual implication when applied to an adult male.

There was a homosexual scandal in Boise, Idaho in the mid-Sixties; the book about it was called "The Boys of Boise." The play and film "The Boys in the Band," also about homosexuals, came out in the Sixties too. It goes back farther, though; James T. Farrell has a short story dating from the Thirties about a homosexual party that ends in a murder; the cops refer to the attendees contemptuously as they bundle them into the wagon as, "just boys."

Why would they refer to a bunch of girls as "boys"

511 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:45:28pm

re: #501 albusteve

sugar pie, honey bun

My best female friend is Puddin to me.

512 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:45:49pm

re: #500 sattv4u2

It honestly never occurred to me

Seems to be a recurring theme with you

just sayin!

You noticed that too, eh?

513 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:46:41pm

Here's my take on Phillips: all her articles on "Londonistan" and such, came about because she fears Islam as a competitor to Christianity. They did not come about because she appreciates the West as an Enlightenment society.

514 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:46:58pm

re: #501 albusteve

sugar pie, honey bun

Amazon
Sheila

515 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:06pm

re: #497 DEZes

Used well before our time, I guess.

516 Mich-again  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:16pm

From the article..

Intelligent Design, whose proponents are mainly scientists, holds that the complexity of science suggests that there must have been a governing intelligence behind the origin of matter, which could not have developed spontaneously from nothing.

The "origin of matter". That's a new one.
How is that even science? Its just pondering over what might be.

517 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:42pm

re: #514 Gus 802

Amazon
Sheila

Babe

518 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:50pm
519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:53pm

re: #506 OldLineTexan

He used to be younger.

A friend asked me if I wanted to see a picture of him when he was younger. I said, "Isn't every picture of every person of when they were younger?"
-Mitch Hedberg

520 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:55pm

re: #513 Zimriel

Here's my take on Phillips: all her articles on "Londonistan" and such, came about because she fears Islam as a competitor to Christianity. They did not come about because she appreciates the West as an Enlightenment society.

After seeing what freetoken dug up, it's hard to disagree with this.

521 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:55pm

re: #445 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

*wanders into the melee swinging wildly*

What's up?


Hey boy!

522 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:47:56pm

re: #515 Slumbering Behemoth

Used well before our time, I guess.

May have to ask my uncle about those.

523 Dr. Shalit  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:48:04pm

re: #478 buzzsawmonkey

Slang terms for women that have not been heard in decades:

Broad
Twist
Head
Bint
Skirt
Dame

buzzsawmonkey -

"BUZZ" - Do You NOT at times think what the slang was/is for us guys by "them girls?"

-S-

524 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:48:15pm

re: #516 Mich-again
"irreducible complexity" is the one that gets me.

525 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:48:19pm

re: #482 FurryOldGuyJeans

And not a moment too soon, I say.

What's wrong with "dame"? It's even more polite than "ma'am" (French: "my dame"). Maybe we should reinstitute that.

What do the resident dames think?

526 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:48:27pm

re: #502 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who's Joy, Harry?

He is riding his Harley Davidson with joy but otherwise alone. ;-)

527 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:48:36pm

Can't Help Myself...

528 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:48:42pm

re: #517 Salamantis

Babe

Butch
Chick

529 thatemailname  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:49:04pm

Well, in the end, what's the big deal? Nobody can be right 100% of the time. Otherwise intelligent people can sometimes be wrong on some things, right? And I don't see any evidence that she's being purposely dishonest.

530 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:49:10pm

re: #521 Jim in Virginia

Hey boy!

JIM! Me and the boys are goin' down to Willy's for a pitcher. Wanna come along?

/

531 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:49:13pm
532 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:49:32pm

re: #529 thatemailname

Well, in the end, what's the big deal? Nobody can be right 100% of the time. Otherwise intelligent people can sometimes be wrong on some things, right? And I don't see any evidence that she's being purposely dishonest.

See #341.

533 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:49:33pm

re: #518 buzzsawmonkey

Using "boy" to imply homosexuality to a grown male is a recognition that he is of the male gender while simultaneously stating that he is not considered really a "man."

And yet some of the manliest men you will ever meet are gay.

534 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:49:48pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

Those are modifications on the word "boy," which remove the homosexual implication. Free-standing, "boy" has a homosexual implication when applied to an adult male.

I think that's spelt "boi", on the gay-centred websites...

535 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:50:04pm

re: #475 OldLineTexan

I had cake today!

Happy Birthday to OLT's older father, now 74.


Mom is up from Arkansas to visit, she will be 86 Saturday. Still spry and sweet.

536 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:50:18pm

re: #529 thatemailname
Here we go, again.

537 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:50:26pm
538 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:50:39pm

re: #499 avanti

Ma'am ? crap, if I called a female friend Ma'am, I'd get a shin kick. :)

I generally call them by their first name. They are my friend after all. The term Ma'am is to be used when addressing a Lady with whom you have had no formal introduction or is your senior in age or position.

539 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:50:59pm

re: #514 Gus 802

Amazon
Sheila

Bird

540 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:50:59pm

re: #536 pingjockey

Here we go, again.

It takes two to "go".

541 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:51:06pm

re: #528 Gus 802

Butch
Chick

In the Navy, we called them splittails. It was a wordplay on a type of ship stern known as a fantail.

542 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:51:08pm
543 Mich-again  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:51:17pm

snake hips,
sweety pie
Ma'am
Li'l Darling

544 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:51:24pm

re: #534 Zimriel

I think that's spelt "boi", on the gay-centred websites...

And why, pray tell, would you have such ready knowledge of the usage, hmmmm? ;)

545 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:51:35pm

re: #537 buzzsawmonkey

I am referencing a time before websites, and the spelling abominations they have foisted upon the world.

j00 ph3ear mai 3733tness!wun!

546 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:51:43pm

re: #533 FurryOldGuyJeans

Most of the gay people (that I know personally) are admitted stereotypical swishy gays.

I have met many gay men, I would describe one as manly.

547 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:51:48pm

re: #540 OldLineTexan

That is true. Channeling Emily Latella..."never mind".

548 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:52:03pm

re: #507 Sharmuta

That's a good point. I don't like being called "ma'am". Always call a woman "Miss". We love that.

Interesting cultural difference:

In spanish speaking cultures, where "miss" is equivalent to "senorita", and "ma'am" to "senora", you DO NOT DARE call a woman past a certain age "senorita". Doing so implies she is a prostitute.

549 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:52:06pm

re: #539 Soona'

Bird

I like that one. Reminds me of Bugs Bunny.

550 longlivethe80s  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:52:15pm

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

New guy here,

What's with all of the hand-ringing over intelligent design? Big deal. It's just as loony IMO to think that the universe just popped into existence. Something started all of this mess....which means to me that he/she or it could do pretty much anything, including making hairless talking apes or fooling a bunch of us pseudo intellectuals into thinking evolution is the answer.

Besides doesn't the lack of cast offs or unfit specimens in the fossil record raise a whole lot of doubt on Darwin's theory?

Remember, I'm new here and pissing you guys off isn't my intention, but there's seems to be an unhealthy obsession with ID.

551 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:52:55pm
552 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:52:56pm

re: #548 Slumbering Behemoth
Ouch! I will remember that.

553 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:05pm

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys.

554 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:12pm

re: #548 Slumbering Behemoth

Interesting cultural difference:

In spanish speaking cultures, where "miss" is equivalent to "senorita", and "ma'am" to "senora", you DO NOT DARE call a woman past a certain age "senorita". Doing so implies she is a prostitute.

Shar would not like the traditional parts of Texas, like my house.

/

555 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:13pm

How many women here wanna be called Ms.?

/just taking a poll

556 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:22pm
557 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:25pm

re: #546 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Most of the gay people (that I know personally) are admitted stereotypical swishy gays.

I have met many gay men, I would describe one as manly.

I live in the Seattle area. A lot of guys that I know are gay are not swishy, but very masculine acting.

558 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:32pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

Because it is FAITH, not science.

559 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:32pm

re: #541 Salamantis

or just tail

560 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:43pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys.

There they go driving in the left lane exceeding the speed limit and littering!

561 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:53:54pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

it's a long story....you may need to do some homework to get the gist of it....

562 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:54:04pm

re: #523 Dr. Shalit

buzzsawmonkey -

"BUZZ" - Do You NOT at times think what the slang was/is for us guys by "them girls?"

-S-

Other than "bastard," "shithead," and "asshole"?

563 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:54:11pm

re: #556 buzzsawmonkey
Yaaay. me neither!

564 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:54:17pm

re: #551 Iron Fist

I think it is a Southern thing. It's not entirely an insult. I also refer to my old crew as "my boys". Of course, "bitch" has taken on insulting tones for both males and females. That has happened in my lifetime, I think. I don't recall it from my childhood.

Because my mother (and yours too I'd bet) would have wasted an entire bar of soap on our mouths.

565 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:54:20pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

You decided to join this blog without having read it much previously, or what?

566 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:54:43pm

madel yiddish for girl.

567 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:54:45pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

there's seems to be an unhealthy obsession with ID.

Thats not what the "obsession" is about. It's about teaching a RELIGIOUS beleif in a public schools SCIENCE class

568 babes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:54:45pm

I don't mind being hearing 'Ma'am' but you might see one of my finer hours if you refer to me as 'girlie.'

569 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:55:10pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

Way to start out, Negative friends in under 2 posts.

570 Mich-again  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:55:16pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

Remember, I'm new here and pissing you guys off isn't my intention, but there's seems to be an unhealthy obsession with ID.

The ones pushing ID have an unhealthy obsession.

571 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:55:34pm

re: #555 Salamantis

How many women here wanna be called Ms.?

/just taking a poll

It's easy in Texas; I pronounce it "Mizz" and no one knows any better. Used to be very common usage.

572 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:55:40pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

Those are modifications on the word "boy," which remove the homosexual implication. Free-standing, "boy" has a homosexual implication when applied to an adult male.
"


I've heard of the boys in the band but never thought of "boys" in the context of homesexuality.
My mom referred to her brothers as "the boys" until they died- and to my dad's sisters as "the girls."
FWIW, I know women who resent being called "ladies", - cause ladies are street walkers.

573 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:55:48pm

re: #557 FurryOldGuyJeans

I live in the Seattle area. A lot of guys that I know are gay are not swishy, but very masculine acting.

I know of no gay men buy ABQ seems to be a refuge for lesbians....many are extremely dyke

574 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:55:54pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

It's handwringing not "hand-ringing." Hand ringing is what you do when your hands are made out of copper and shaped like a bell.

575 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:56:06pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

There are lots of threads here at lgf chock full of links and references so you can teach yourself why there is a lot of heat and smoke about this. Invest your time wisely, doing some boning up, and then get back to us.

576 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:56:18pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys.

LMAO.
can we at least cook it this time?

577 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:56:20pm
578 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:56:34pm

re: #530 OldLineTexan

JIM! Me and the boys are goin' down to Willy's for a pitcher. Wanna come along?

/


Sure, first round is on me. Hell, I'll buy one for the whole place.

579 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:56:39pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

You need to do your up-to-speed reading:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

580 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:57:13pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys.

BOYS?
/

581 debutaunt  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:57:14pm

re: #555 Salamantis

How many women here wanna be called Ms.?

/just taking a poll

No thanks.

582 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:57:32pm

re: #577 buzzsawmonkey
Great flic.
These folks need to do their homework before they get to one of these threads.

583 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:57:44pm

re: #580 Soona'

Turn about. Fair play. And it's a famous quote.

584 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:57:55pm

re: #572 Jim in Virginia

I've heard of the boys in the band but never thought of "boys" in the context of homesexuality.
My mom referred to her brothers as "the boys" until they died- and to my dad's sisters as "the girls."
FWIW, I know women who resent being called "ladies", - cause ladies are street walkers.

the boys of summer....BB players

585 babes  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:58:04pm

re: #581 debutaunt

No thanks.

No thanks to the contrived Ms.

586 avanti  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:58:05pm

re: #505 FurryOldGuyJeans

I would never been so crass. Respect was the norm as far back as I can remember.

I guess I'll stay crass then, never had women get offended by calling them girls yet. I once had a 20's something glare at me for opening a door for her, but I still do that anyway.

587 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:58:27pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

Anybody getting the grill stoked up?

588 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:58:38pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

New guy here,

What's with all of the hand-ringing over intelligent design? Big deal. It's just as loony IMO to think that the universe just popped into existence. Something started all of this mess....which means to me that he/she or it could do pretty much anything, including making hairless talking apes or fooling a bunch of us pseudo intellectuals into thinking evolution is the answer.

Besides doesn't the lack of cast offs or unfit specimens in the fossil record raise a whole lot of doubt on Darwin's theory?

Remember, I'm new here and pissing you guys off isn't my intention, but there's seems to be an unhealthy obsession with ID.


A shame that this was your maiden post. (And it is a shameful post.)

Go read up talkorigins, and/or check out LGF's other many comments on this topic, before opining further on any subject of biology. And especially go through the LGF archives before opining further on our (well-founded) worries that ID will get into our classrooms and textbooks.

You have an interesting theory on how the fossils got here (including unfit fossils which did NOT survive various local changes... like, uh, "dinosaurs", which you may have heard of) - I take it you believe that Loki, the Trickster, was the creator of the universe?

589 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:58:40pm

re: #583 Sharmuta

Sure is. Used quite appropriately too.

590 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:58:46pm

re: #568 babes

Hey babes!

591 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:58:48pm

re: #573 albusteve

I know of no gay men buy ABQ seems to be a refuge for lesbians....many are extremely dyke

There are a lot of lesbians here as well, but they don't hoot and whistle at me like the gays do.

592 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:02pm
593 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:09pm

re: #587 Bubblehead II
It is warming now!

594 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:09pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s


Besides doesn't the lack of cast offs or unfit specimens in the fossil record raise a whole lot of doubt on Darwin's theory?

Well, that depends. Can you prove, beyond a shadow of any doubt, that we have at this point uncovered the entirety of the fossil record, and that there is nothing left that is undiscovered?

/not holding my breath.

595 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:27pm

re: #530 OldLineTexan

JIM! Me and the boys are goin' down to Willy's for a pitcher. Wanna come along?

/

DEZes, do you know where Willy's is?

596 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:44pm

re: #573 albusteve

BEARS?

597 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:44pm

Amazingly- Charles points out the religious nature of ID, and the new troll still asks what's the big deal.

Because public school students and their parents have a Constitutional right to free exercise, 80s person.

598 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:49pm

Ah, one of life's guilty pleasures ... the gopher dancing at the end of Caddyshack.

599 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:49pm

re: #591 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are a lot of lesbians here as well, but they don't hoot and whistle at me like the gays do.

haha!...good grief....but are you flattered?

600 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 4:59:59pm

So, what do we think about International Free Press Association ?

Should we be concerned that their 2009 prize winner was ... Melanie Phillips?

601 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:00:30pm

re: #552 pingjockey

Well, that's what my spanish teacher told me, anyway. I kind of figured she knew what she was talking about.

602 kynna  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:00:41pm

As a Christian, the ID movement really bothers me because it necessarily diminishes God into something able to be "handled". Not possible.

Science is a gift. The Catholic church has long supported scientific research. The ID movement may as well be saying the earth is flat and men have never set foot on the moon. Once you reject one proven result of scientific research you really may as well reject them all.

603 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:00:49pm

When speaking of women in general I use misogynistic term like "broads" or "chicks" but when speaking to individuals I address them as "ma'am". A lot of people ask me if a spent time in the military. To me it just seems the polite thing to do.

604 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:00:55pm

re: #571 OldLineTexan

It's easy in Texas; I pronounce it "Mizz" and no one knows any better. Used to be very common usage.

Marshall Dillon! Mizz Kitty says to get your ass over to the Long Branch Saloon!

I do, Festus; I do!

605 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:01:22pm

re: #601 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, that's what my spanish teacher told me, anyway. I kind of figured she knew what she was talking about.

Was her name Peggy Hill?

/

606 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:01:36pm
607 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:01:53pm

re: #583 Sharmuta

Turn about. Fair play. And it's a famous quote.

I've never taken offense of the word boys when said by a woman.

608 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:01:57pm

re: #600 freetoken

So, what do we think about International Free Press Association ?

Should we be concerned that their 2009 prize winner was ... Melanie Phillips?

No. Looks like a make believe association. They even link to Gates of Vienna and some other junk.

609 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:02:05pm

re: #606 bh684

Please don't bring that garbage in here.

610 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:02:20pm

re: #600 freetoken

It's a joke. They support Geert, Vlaams Belang, etc. It was created by Spencer and others. I think Dianna West is on the board.

611 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:02:21pm

re: #596 yochanan

BEARS?

this town is full of serious dykes....riding choppers and the like...I'm courteous to everyone, but they can be spooky...I don't know what you call them

612 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:02:34pm

re: #601 Slumbering Behemoth
I would have to agree.

613 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:02:42pm

re: #606 bh684

Dude, you probably don't want to be posting that link here. You might want to hit the exclamation point on that post.

614 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:03:15pm

re: #591 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are a lot of lesbians here as well, but they don't hoot and whistle at me like the gays do.

What a bummer. ;)

615 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:03:20pm

Who let all the trolls in? Did somebody mention Ron Paul or something?

616 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:03:30pm

re: #603 Killgore Trout

When speaking of women in general I use misogynistic term like "broads" or "chicks" but when speaking to individuals I address them as "ma'am". A lot of people ask me if a spent time in the military. To me it just seems the polite thing to do.

yeah ,, because "BROADS" is oh so polite.

Dilemma,,, when meeting the Queen of England, do you bow or call her a broad?

617 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:03:41pm

re: #595 Jim in Virginia

DEZes, do you know where Willy's is?

Can't say that I do, but show me the way and I will help free him.

618 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:01pm

re: #593 pingjockey

Should I bring the Mesquite or Hickory chips?

619 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:02pm

re: #606 bh684

Ew. That sucked.

620 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:11pm

re: #606 bh684
If you see shit like that, bring it to Charles attention, but don't link it. Thanks.

621 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:16pm

re: #610 Killgore Trout

Yes, look at their board members.

/Is there a pattern developing here?

622 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:16pm

Boy o boy, my Firefox bucks like a wild horse.
It just crashed on me.

623 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:33pm

re: #550 longlivethe80s

Hey Newbie.

Thanks for re-hashing the exact things that were re-hashed by the last re-hasher.

Happy Gilmore is on. Bye guys.

624 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:49pm

re: #615 Killgore Trout

LUAP NOR rulz!

625 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:53pm

BEARS = masculine male gay found is sports bars etc.

626 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:04:58pm

re: #599 albusteve

haha!...good grief....but are you flattered?

What's not to be flattered about? Somebody finds me attractive. Nothing will ever come of it.

627 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:05:03pm

re: #602 kynna

As a Christian, the ID movement really bothers me because it necessarily diminishes God into something able to be "handled". Not possible.

Science is a gift. The Catholic church has long supported scientific research. The ID movement may as well be saying the earth is flat and men have never set foot on the moon. Once you reject one proven result of scientific research you really may as well reject them all.


You can't put God in a box.

628 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:05:05pm

re: #600 freetoken

So, what do we think about International Free Press Association ?

Should we be concerned that their 2009 prize winner was ... Melanie Phillips?

Look at their Board of Advisors.

629 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:05:09pm

I think I just felt a tug on the line.

630 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:05:28pm

re: #625 yochanan

BEARS = HAIRY masculine male gay found is sports bars etc.

FTFY

631 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:05:35pm

re: #618 Bubblehead II
Mesquite by all means.

632 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:06:12pm

re: #611 albusteve

this town is full of serious dykes....riding choppers and the like...I'm courteous to everyone, but they can be spooky...I don't know what you call them


SIR!

633 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:06:17pm

re: #610 Killgore Trout

Board of Directors

Board of Directors, International Free Press Society

Lars Hedegaard, President
Diana West, Vice President
Paul Belien, Vice President
Christine Brim, Secretary
Bjorn Larsen, Treasurer
Ned May, Outreach Coordinator


Neo-Fascist supporters.

634 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:06:28pm

re: #616 sattv4u2

yeah ,, because "BROADS" is oh so polite.

Dilemma,,, when meeting the Queen of England, do you bow or call her a broad?

Telly Savalas would've.

635 LionofDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:06:34pm

One of the reasons I heartily endorse creationism: It's a hell of a lot quicker than that slowpoke evolution. Seven days, and BAM!, You've got a world created, seas filled, land formed, animals bred and Man developed....with a day of rest to boot.

That evolution junk takes too damn long. The more time I have to think about other things, the better. Evolution is just too sloth-like and clumsy for the modern, multi-tasking, microsecond, megabyte world.

636 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:06:47pm

re: #618 Bubblehead II

re: #631 pingjockey

Just for a change, lets do it as Fondue this time!

637 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:06:48pm

re: #615 Killgore Trout

Who let all the trolls in? Did somebody mention Ron Paul or something?

NOW YOU DID IT!

/

638 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:06:57pm
639 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:07pm
640 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:16pm

re: #616 sattv4u2

yeah ,, because "BROADS" is oh so polite.

Dilemma,,, when meeting the Queen of England, do you bow or call her a broad?

She's a cheeky tart. I'd pat her bum, of course.

641 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:21pm

Board of Directors

Lars Hedegaard, President
Diana West, Vice President
Paul Belien, Vice President
Christine Brim, Secretary
Bjorn Larsen, Treasurer
Ned May, Outreach Coordinator

Bolded names are known VB apologists.

642 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:23pm

re: #611 albusteve

this town is full of serious dykes....riding choppers and the like...I'm courteous to everyone, but they can be spooky...I don't know what you call them

Used to be called dykes on bikes but that was then.

643 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:28pm

re: #629 Charles

I think I just felt a tug on the line.

A disturbance in the force, eh?

644 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:33pm

re: #633 Killgore Trout

Ya beat me!

645 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:51pm

re: #640 Killgore Trout

She's a cheeky tart. I'd pat her bum, of course.

so you WOULD bow!

646 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:07:55pm

re: #636 sattv4u2
I don't think we've got a big enough pot for all the cheese we're gonna need!

647 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:08:04pm

re: #635 LionofDixon

You're joking, right?

648 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:08:09pm

re: #643 FurryOldGuyJeans

A disturbance in the force, eh?

Seemed like a heavy yank to me.

649 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:08:17pm

re: #615 Killgore Trout

Charles did. I think he saw the thread was getting stale ans wanted to liven things up a bit.

650 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:08:18pm

re: #633 Killgore Trout

Neo-Fascist supporters.

Brussels Journal? Right?

651 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:08:32pm

re: #635 LionofDixon

Can I sell you a sarc tag? Real cheap, on $2.

652 debutaunt  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:08:43pm

re: #640 Killgore Trout

She's a cheeky tart. I'd pat her bum, of course.

She's a wink and fist-bump kind of broad.

653 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:09:01pm

re: #625 yochanan

BEARS = masculine male gay found is sports bars etc.

You forgot HAIRY. I keep getting called a bear by all the gay guys hooting and whistling at me. ;)

654 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:09:13pm

re: #638 FurryOldGuyJeans

Cleanup! Aisle 606!

Next time send a note to Charles about such stuff, don't link it in open forum.

Irony meter pegged at 8.7

655 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:09:15pm

Was staring right at a comment. It disappeared. That's soooo gnarly.

656 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:09:23pm

re: #651 Slumbering Behemoth

PIMF. only $2.

657 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:09:23pm

re: #632 Jim in Virginia

SIR!

one is a customer of mine....she's wealthy and brash and very robust...just a riot to hang around with

658 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:10:29pm

re: #629 Charles

I think I just felt a tug on the line.

You could probably use one of these....

659 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:10:36pm

re: #655 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It is very cool!

660 Spare O'Lake  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:10:40pm

re: #629 Charles

I think I just felt a tug on the line.

With the yummy live bait you're using it's gonna be very hard to lip-hook the sucker.

661 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:10:43pm

re: #641 Sharmuta

Board of Directors

Lars Hedegaard, President
Diana West, Vice President
Paul Belien, Vice President
Christine Brim, Secretary
Bjorn Larsen, Treasurer
Ned May, Outreach Coordinator

Bolded names are known VB apologists.

Martin Mawyer is also on that list - a religious fanatic and associate of Jerry Falwell, with some truly insane ideas:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

662 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:10:53pm

re: #642 Gus 802

Used to be called dykes on bikes but that was then.

on the other hand LOTS of women ride big ass Harleys out here...

663 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:11:18pm

re: #627 Jim in Virginia

You can't put God in a box.

Some people keep trying.

664 zuckerlilly  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:11:39pm

Intelligent Design belittles God, Vatican director says

Intelligent Design reduces and belittles God’s power and might, according to the director of the Vatican Observatory.

VATICAN OBSERVATORY DIRECTOR SPEAKS ON EVOLUTION – Jesuit Father George V. Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory, is pictured in a 1996 file photo in Washington. In a Jan. 31 West Palm Beach, Fla., talk, Father Coyne says that Christianity is “radically creationist,” though the theory of Intelligent Design reduces and belittles God.

Science is and should be seen as “completely neutral” on the issue of the theistic or atheistic implications of scientific results, says Father George V. Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory, while noting that “science and religion are totally separate pursuits.”

665 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:11:44pm
666 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:11:47pm

re: #662 albusteve

on the other hand LOTS of women ride big ass Harleys out here...



Does this Harley make my ass look big?

/

667 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:11:56pm

re: #661 Charles

Martin Mawyer is also on that list - a religious fanatic and associate of Jerry Falwell, with some truly insane ideas:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ah- I remember that thread. Thanks.

668 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:11:58pm
669 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:12:10pm

re: #662 albusteve

on the other hand LOTS of women ride big ass Harleys out here...

And lots of them are dykes.

670 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:12:11pm

re: #636 sattv4u2

re: #631 pingjockey

Just for a change, lets do it as Fondue this time!

You really do need to get out of that control room more often.

/ I don't even have a fondue pot

671 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #663 FurryOldGuyJeans

Some people keep trying.

Funny how they they try and bring him down a notch is it not.

672 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:12:23pm

re: #662 albusteve

on the other hand LOTS of women ride big ass Harleys out here...

Yeah. At first there was some riding group that was officially called Dykes on Bikes. Biking of course has gotten more popular with women over the years.

673 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:12:45pm

re: #654 Zimriel

Irony meter pegged at 8.7

Yeah, MY mistake. That's why my comment got nuked, and rightly so. I hit quote and didn't PIMF.

674 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:12:50pm

'longlivethe80s' dropped one creationist comment, then bugged out.

675 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:13:14pm

re: #662 albusteve

on the other hand LOTS of women ride big ass Harleys out here...

are thre womens asses big,,,or has Harley added a new feature!?!?!?!

676 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:13:38pm

re: #674 Charles

'longlivethe80s' dropped one creationist comment, then bugged out.

Did get slapped around a bit first.

677 Spare O'Lake  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:13:58pm

re: #668 buzzsawmonkey

Is "big ass" really the term you want to use?

/I guess it's OK if you're just talking about the bikes.

Misplaced modifier?
*ducks*

678 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:10pm

re: #674 Charles

'longlivethe80s' dropped one creationist comment, then bugged out.

he;s an overacheiver!

679 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:21pm

re: #675 sattv4u2

are thre womens asses big,,,or has Harley added a new feature!?!?!?!

I thought those were saddle bags. ;)

680 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:28pm

re: #674 Charles

A lack of intestinal fortitude. Or it has gone back to wherever and is bragging about dissing us Darwinists!

681 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:28pm

re: #675 sattv4u2

are thre womens asses big,,,or has Harley added a new feature!?!?!?!

It's a version of the Softail.

682 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:30pm

re: #668 buzzsawmonkey

Is "big ass" really the term you want to use?

/I guess it's OK if you're just talking about the bikes.

it's an old family expression....everything is big ass now and then

683 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:33pm

re: #674 Charles

'longlivethe80s' dropped one creationist comment, then bugged out.

Bugged out as in, deleted its own comment?

684 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:40pm

re: #635 LionofDixon

Forget the sarc tag? Your comment seems to be dripping with sarcasm, but was it?

685 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:48pm

re: #647 Sharmuta

Well.....isn't my premise in line with Occam's Razor? Much easier to explain everything with "God Created It." Try explaining evolution and Darwinism in three words.....I dare ya!

For some reason, this reminds me of something Steven Wright once said: "I read the dictionary. I thought it was a poem about everything."

686 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:14:58pm

re: #683 Zimriel

Bugged out as in, deleted its own commentaccount?

pimf

687 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:15:13pm

re: #679 DEZes

I thought those were saddle bags. ;)

Thats from years not wearing a bra!

688 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:15:33pm

What right wing extremists?

The Patriot Axe Message » Blog Archive » Boom. Headshot. Where was this guy on Sep. 12, 2001?

Anti-vaxer, New World Order, threats of violence. Should be reported to somebody.

689 livefreeor die  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:15:45pm

re: #674 Charles

'longlivethe80s' dropped one creationist comment, then bugged out.

I'm impress. :)

690 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:15:59pm

The History Channel (or possibly Biography) showed their program about the Little Ice Age the other night. When it first started getting colder, people were utterly baffled about what might be causing it. They finally decided witches were to blame. Remarkably, when they started executing witches, it did not get warmer.

691 pingjockey  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:16:01pm

BBIAB! My grill is ready for homemade burgers!

692 Soona'  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:16:12pm

Headache coming on. I'm outta here.

693 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:16:27pm

re: #687 sattv4u2

Thats from years not wearing a bra!

Then I had better watch what I step on.

694 Liberal Classic  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:16:28pm

re: #685 LionOfDixon

Well.....isn't my premise in line with Occam's Razor? Much easier to explain everything with "God Created It." Try explaining evolution and Darwinism in three words.....I dare ya!

Life changes form.

695 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:16:52pm

re: #663 FurryOldGuyJeans

Unless God wanted you to put him in a box....But I think he could probably get out, too.

696 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:16:56pm

re: #674 Charles

'longlivethe80s' dropped one creationist comment, then bugged out.

And he used a comment of mine to drop his little creationist turd. I feel honored, usually it is one of the more stalwart anti-idiotarian folks like Sharm or Sal that raise the hackles of the unwashed.

697 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:17:02pm

re: #674 Charles

'longlivethe80s' dropped one creationist comment, then bugged out.

Bummer, I was about to ask it which part of the '80s it thought should be "long lived".

If it has anything to do with this, then I say hell yeah!

698 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:17:02pm

Creationism is the achilles heel of the conservative movement.

699 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:17:26pm

re: #685 LionOfDixon

Well.....isn't my premise in line with Occam's Razor? Much easier to explain everything with "God Created It." Try explaining evolution and Darwinism in three words.....I dare ya!

For some reason, this reminds me of something Steven Wright once said: "I read the dictionary. I thought it was a poem about everything."

Thats your take on Occam's razor, being lazy?

700 livefreeor die  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:18:12pm

re: #690 doppelganglander

The History Channel (or possibly Biography) showed their program about the Little Ice Age the other night. When it first started getting colder, people were utterly baffled about what might be causing it. They finally decided witches were to blame. Remarkably, when they started executing witches, it did not get warmer.

Oh well, there goes the diabolical plan to deal with the cold spring, Barbara Streisand, and most of the cast of The View.

701 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:18:12pm

re: #671 DEZes

Funny how they they try and bring him down a notch is it not.

Not funny at all, depressing and disheartening actually.

I know you didn't mean funny, ha-ha.

702 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:18:58pm

re: #690 doppelganglander

wondering how long the sun spots were gone back then and what about now?

703 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:19:00pm

re: #685 LionOfDixon

Well.....isn't my premise in line with Occam's Razor?

Not even close. More like Occam's Fluffy Pillow. All soft and filled with denial.

704 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:19:06pm

re: #672 Gus 802

Yeah. At first there was some riding group that was officially called Dykes on Bikes. Biking of course has gotten more popular with women over the years.

lots of couples....the Latino's especially love their big bikes...and the women don't just ride Sportsers....Street Glides, baby

705 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:19:16pm

I know there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there but this one seems real....
Cuomo Unveils Paulson, Bernanke, Lewis Conspiracy

I think this also ties into why Obama isn't going push the torture investigations. Obama is doing a lot of stuff behind the scenes that isn't completely within the law. Just like after Sept. 11 Bush had to push into some grey areas, the financial crisis has forced Obama into the same position. I definately don't agree with everything Obama's doing but I'm willing to let him do what he think need be done. It is going to be interesting to learn what is really going on after all this is over.

706 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:19:24pm

re: #694 Liberal Classic

Ahh...but what created life? Your description starts with the premise that life already exists...
It also fails to mention anything about natural selection. Everything changes form eventually, not just life.

707 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:19:48pm

re: #688 Charles

What right wing extremists?

The Patriot Axe Message » Blog Archive » Boom. Headshot. Where was this guy on Sep. 12, 2001?

Anti-vaxer, New World Order, threats of violence. Should be reported to somebody.

Easiest way is using this.

FBI Tips and Public Leads

708 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:20:13pm

re: #671 DEZes

Funny how they they try and bring him down a notch is it not.

Why do I have this image of some little kid flushing all his toys down the toilet? ;)

709 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:20:18pm

re: #698 The Sanity Inspector

Creationism is the achilles heel of the conservative movement.

What are you talking about?! Creationism is a left wing movement! Why do you think they call it "Creation Socialism?"

Oh, wait.

/

710 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:20:24pm

re: #701 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not funny at all, depressing and disheartening actually.

I know you didn't mean funny, ha-ha.

Yeah, funny in a sad way.
I have heard God is so big that the universe can not contain him.
And then they try and mold him into a neat little ball that fits their finite minds.

711 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:20:28pm

re: #702 yochanan

wondering how long the sun spots were gone back then and what about now?

I fell asleep, so I don't know if they covered that. Is there a way for modern scientists to know what sort of sun spot activity was happening a thousand years ago?

712 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:20:35pm

re: #696 FurryOldGuyJeans

You're on your way! ;)

713 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:21:17pm

re: #688 Charles

What right wing extremists?

The Patriot Axe Message » Blog Archive » Boom. Headshot. Where was this guy on Sep. 12, 2001?

Anti-vaxer, New World Order, threats of violence. Should be reported to somebody.

Not how I read it. It looks like a contented thumbs-up for Obama's action against the pirates, expanded to a wish that Clinton had sent assassins after Osama bin Laden and his boys. Note how “inexperienced” and “untested” are put in scare quotes.

It's admittedly an ugly website which is hard to read, and I'm sure he's said some mindless crap elsewhere, but this post isn't the example I'd have picked.

714 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:21:28pm

re: #690 doppelganglander

The History Channel (or possibly Biography) showed their program about the Little Ice Age the other night. When it first started getting colder, people were utterly baffled about what might be causing it. They finally decided witches were to blame. Remarkably, when they started executing witches, it did not get warmer.

Obviously, if they had enough witches, the CO2 emitted from all the burning would cause global warming.
They didn't burn enough witches.
/do I need to?

715 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:21:32pm

re: #688 Charles

Anti-vaxer, New World Order, threats of violence. Should be reported to somebody.

Maybe he could help organize some Tea Parties or something.

716 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:22:09pm

Tonight's threat that I'm going to burn in hell comes from a creationist in Australia who emails every time I post something like this:

No, YOU are wrong about intelligent design. You need to read, for
example, the book by former atheist Antony Flew called "There is a God"
in which he sets out the reasons why he became an atheist, and then the
reasons why he abandoned atheism and became a theist.
I hope you will read it, but it will take a miracle for you to do so.
I hope you will experience a miracle in your life. Your attitude toward
the divine, I suspect, is explained by John 3:19 and Romans 1:18.
You need to think about your future, long term. The Bible says
everyone of us will be judged by our Creator and required to give an
account of our lives, of the deeds we have done in our bodies. The Bible
also makes it clear that we are without excuse. Dawkins in the movie
expelled said he would plead ignorance before God (did you see him?) but
the Bible says we are all without excuse (Romans 1:20). Take some time
out. Think about your future. And in the meantime, drive carefully.

717 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:22:16pm

re: #699 DEZes

No, I believe that was Occam's take on Occam...I.e., ceteris paribus, the simplest answer is usually the correct one..(to paraphrase Mr. Occam.)
Occam may have been a lazy guy...I don't know. But is razor saved my but on a lot of college and grad. school exams....So he's kind of a hero to me....

718 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:22:18pm

re: #705 Killgore Trout

Andy Cuomo knows lots about illegal/questionable/unConstitutional activities in broad daylight.

I'd say he's an expert with YEARS of personal experience.

I'm staying as far away from him as a neoNazi.

719 Spare O'Lake  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:22:30pm

re: #685 LionOfDixon

Well.....isn't my premise in line with Occam's Razor? Much easier to explain everything with "God Created It." Try explaining evolution and Darwinism in three words.....I dare ya!

For some reason, this reminds me of something Steven Wright once said: "I read the dictionary. I thought it was a poem about everything."

The concept of a tricky God or a playful God just seems a bit hard to swallow.
I don't know why that is, really, considering some of the stuff He has knowingly permitted/caused humankind to pull over the ages.
If he exists, that is...

720 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:22:54pm

re: #715 Killgore Trout

Maybe he could help organize some Tea Parties or something.

Tea Party!

721 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:23:03pm

re: #712 Sharmuta

You're on your way! ;)

Will getting my own stalker on LGF2 be next? I can hardly wait! WOO-HOO! ;)

722 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:23:47pm

re: #716 Charles

Can't you just feel the love?

723 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:24:04pm

re: #711 doppelganglander

pop science tends to make the complex simple i.e. global warming is created by man vs much more complex causes.

724 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:24:22pm

re: #717 LionOfDixon

No, I believe that was Occam's take on Occam...I.e., ceteris paribus, the simplest answer is usually the correct one..(to paraphrase Mr. Occam.)
Occam may have been a lazy guy...I don't know. But is razor saved my but on a lot of college and grad. school exams....So he's kind of a hero to me....

So you did need a sarc tag on the previous post.

725 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:24:50pm

re: #705 Killgore Trout

Andrew Cuomo has sent an angry letter to regulators including Mary Schapiro, Elizabeth Warren, Chris Dodd and Barney Frank regarding the behavior of Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke over the allegation that they forced Bank of America (BAC) to complete its acquisition of Merrill Lynch.


What makes him think Dodd and Frank weren't involved? That's like complaining to the fox about henhouse management.

726 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:25:22pm

re: #716 Charles

Think about your future. And in the meantime, drive carefully.

Was that meant as a veiled threat?
How dare.

727 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:25:22pm

re: #713 Zimriel

It looks like a contented thumbs-up for Obama's action against the pirates

I concur ,,,

Also gave a thumb in the eye to previous admins for not "finding" Bin Laden although he was in a hospital for kidney treatment, supposidly

728 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:25:40pm

re: #694 Liberal Classic

Life changes form.

LMAO.
Well done.

729 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:25:44pm

re: #709 Charles

That must be that 'Socialist Darwinism' thing.

730 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:25:47pm

re: #720 Sharmuta

That's really funny.

731 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:26:11pm

re: #703 Slumbering Behemoth

Occam's Pillow....hmmm...interesting... I like it. It must mean something like this: All things being equal, the explanation for a phenomenon that is supported by fuzzy academics in the soft-sciences is usually the correct one.

I like it...see how I worked in the "soft" and "fuzzy" concepts? I might even call it Lion Of Dixon's Razor.

732 dwells38  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:26:15pm

Really disappointing. Makes you question whether Melanie even understands what science is.

Science is not trying to poke holes in existing theories and then claiming you've produced something. Which is what ID does.

Everyone thinks it's so clever to say a flagellum or eyeball has no purpose if you remove some component or change it but the simple fact is such an assertion shows a lack of imagination and understanding of continued incremental modification through time. Huge yawning amounts of time the human brain isn't good at comprehending.

Why do shrews have eyes at all? They live underground. They have imperfect weak eyes when they need none whatsoever. Who's the genius who designed that? Answer: some ancestor used eyes before other descendants evolved into a subterranian life mode.

Why do I have a little toe? Why do I have fingernails? Why do whales have arm bones and fingers/toes inside their flippers? You could go on and on.

Worse yet, what does an acceptance of ID get you? Some big alien intelligence designed life on Earth? Who designed the big alien? Is it designers all they way back to the Big Bang? Like the old "turtles all the way down"? Where's the hard evidence of a designer?

Argh..

733 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:26:19pm

re: #725 doppelganglander

What makes him think Dodd and Frank weren't involved? That's like complaining to the fox about henhouse management.

he's fishing for a statement he can use against them later?

734 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:27:13pm

Have the stalker blogs started ranting about this post yet?

735 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:27:18pm

re: #730 Killgore Trout

I'm glad you liked it. Cute little guy.

736 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:27:22pm

re: #695 LionOfDixon

Unless God wanted you to put him in a box....But I think he could probably get out, too.

If He really wanted to be in a box I would not be a good choice for doing so. Too many flaws, too much arthritis.

737 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:27:31pm

re: #716 Charles

That's a classic...lol

738 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:27:56pm

re: #733 albusteve

he's fishing for a statement he can use against them later?

Andy Cuomo fishing against Dodd and Frank?

He'd get Blagojeviched.

739 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:28:17pm

re: #736 FurryOldGuyJeans

If He really wanted to be in a box I would not be a good choice for doing so. Too many flaws, too much arthritis.

God is the box

740 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:28:33pm

re: #733 albusteve

he's fishing for a statement he can use against them later?

Hmmm. I'm no fan of Doddering Dodd and Barney Fwank, but I'm not a fan of Andrew Cuomo, either. Ideally, they'd all be in the same sack tottering on the edge of the Hudson River (metaphorically speaking, of course). I think this is more about Cuomo's planned run for Governor than about ethics at any level.

741 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:28:49pm

re: #698 The Sanity Inspector

Creationism is the achilles heel of the conservative movement.

I disagree.

Not that creationism is something to be overlooked.... but rather, that there is no such thing as "the conservative movement".

If all of these many keyposts (on creationism, fascists, etc.) on LGF the past year have proven one thing, it has to be this: If it sounds like you agree with someone on one issue - beware of thinking they are indeed like you or that you will agree with them on something else.

With 6.7 billion people in the world there are a mind boggling number of combinations and permutations of people and ideas.

742 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:29:06pm

The International Free Press Society is pimping a new video called "Vlaams Belang video: the state of freedom of speech in Belgium".

743 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:29:34pm

re: #716 Charles

But is he going to pray for your soul?

Wow, feel the love tonight.

744 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:29:38pm

re: #716 Charles

Nothing else to say

745 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:30:02pm

re: #734 Charles

Have the stalker blogs started ranting about this post yet?

Looks like they're ranting about the Ron Paul stuff here at LGF over at "Johnny Dollar's Place."

746 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:30:38pm

re: #738 OldLineTexan

Andy Cuomo fishing against Dodd and Frank?

He'd get Blagojeviched.

just a consideration...you never know the motives of the Evil Leftists....maybe he feels he's above reproach....wouldn't be the first time

747 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:30:39pm

re: #731 LionOfDixon

Dude. It's "puff, puff, give". You can't be smoking that stuff in front of people without sharing, that's just poor manners.

748 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:06pm
749 Spare O'Lake  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:14pm

re: #733 albusteve

he's fishing for a statement he can use against them later?

You mean he's angling?

750 doppelganglander  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:17pm

Well, it's suppertime chez doppelganglander. Later, lizards.

751 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:19pm

re: #742 Killgore Trout

The International Free Press Society is pimping a new video called "Vlaams Belang video: the state of freedom of speech in Belgium".

Yes. That group is lousy with Eurofascist connections.

752 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:20pm

re: #743 FurryOldGuyJeans

But is he going to pray for your soul?

Wow, feel the love tonight.

They never seem to say how they are praying for the soul.
Hmmmmm.

753 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:23pm

if you have to agree with somebody on everything it will be a very small group hell i don't always agree with myself all the time.

754 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:23pm

re: #745 Gus 802

Looks like they're ranting about the Ron Paul stuff here at LGF over at "Johnny Dollar's Place."

That was several threads ago! Man, can't even get decent stalkers anymore.

755 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:35pm

re: #736 FurryOldGuyJeans

I always wondered who the hell ever wanted to put Marcel Marceau in a box? How was it that every time you saw him, he was either in a box or playing tug of war? If that was all I did in my life, I would be too emabarrased to talk as well.....

756 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:31:47pm

re: #746 albusteve

just a consideration...you never know the motives of the Evil Leftists....maybe he feels he's above reproach....wouldn't be the first time

Andy Cuomo rates right up there with Benedict Arnold in my book, but he keeps getting Federal employment.

757 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:32:25pm

re: #752 DEZes

They never seem to say how they are praying for the soul.
Hmmmmm.

I'd take greater comfort being an Aztec sacrifice.

758 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:32:36pm

re: #754 FurryOldGuyJeans

That was several threads ago! Man, can't even get decent stalkers anymore.

Yeah, talk about lag time. They posted it on "5/3/09 7:39 PM." I'll snoop around for more.

759 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:33:17pm

re: #757 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'd take greater comfort being an Aztec sacrifice.

We are thinking along the same lines. ;)

760 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:33:39pm

re: #747 Slumbering Behemoth

Sorry, I forgot those types of manners....I haven't hung out with college professors or democrats for a long time.....funny how the memory slips.

761 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:33:40pm

re: #751 Charles

Yes. That group is lousy with Eurofascist connections.

But...but...but... Melanie was their inaugural prize winner!

762 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:33:57pm

re: #751 Charles

It's a very slick production. Pro Koln released a well produced video last month. They are working hard to white wash their true intentions.

763 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:34:17pm

re: #759 DEZes

We are thinking along the same lines. ;)

Hmm, I'll take some keyboard commandoism over having my heart chopped out with an obsidian knife.

764 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:34:18pm
765 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:34:33pm

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

766 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:34:54pm

re: #742 Killgore Trout

The International Free Press Society is pimping a new video called "Vlaams Belang video: the state of freedom of speech in Belgium".

VB and Freedom of Speech. The irony is thick over there.

767 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:35:23pm

re: #765 Charles

Heh.

768 sattv4u2  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:35:24pm

re: #742 Killgore Trout

The International Free Press Society is pimping a new video called "Vlaams Belang video: the state of freedom of speech in Belgium".

Coming this summer to a theatre near you

Produced by The International Free Press Society

Starring David Duke ,,,, with Pamela Geller as Daisy (Duke)

"THE KKK; ,,, We're just a bunch of fun loving people expressing our 1st amendment rights"

769 OldLineTexan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:35:25pm

re: #765 Charles

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

KEWL! Straight from the horse's ass.

770 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:35:39pm
771 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:35:55pm

re: #765 Charles

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

Oh, a twofer! You are doubly blessed tonight, Charles!

772 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:36:05pm

re: #763 OldLineTexan

Hmm, I'll take some keyboard commandoism over having my heart chopped out with an obsidian knife.

Obsidian is so 80's

773 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:36:19pm

re: #760 LionOfDixon

funny how the memory slips.

A natural result of the dope you're smoking. It's important to remember (if you can) to spend some time sober. Being stoned all the time does funny things to the mind, as you are evidencing here.

774 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:36:47pm

re: #769 OldLineTexan

KEWL! Straight from the horse's ass.

Even a horse couldn't evacuate this much shit. Has to be an elephant.

775 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:36:55pm
776 Aye Pod  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:37:00pm

re: #765 Charles

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

This is starting to sound threadworthy.

777 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:39:59pm

re: #765 Charles

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

You could say his head is "down under"

778 mithrax  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:40:46pm

re: #777 Zimriel

779 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:41:27pm

Good afternoon, lizards, just catching up with the thread.

Stalker 2 just put up a thread about this.

780 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:42:35pm

Interesting- one of the banned has compiled a list of other banned users including Lizards who haven't been banned.

781 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:43:11pm

re: #780 Sharmuta

Interesting- one of the banned has compiled a list of other banned users including Lizards who haven't been banned.

Wheres that?

782 J.S.  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:43:11pm

I think this is yet (again?) evidence of a lack of an understanding regarding science...(the other day, I read a column by Jonathan Kay -- he's writing a book about 9/11 conspiracy theories...and he went to a "lecture" by some architect who's become a big name in the "9/11 was an inside job" routine. At the beginning of the lecture, the architect asked for a show of hands (those who believed that the 9/11 attacks were done by al-Qaeda -- a few people in the audience raised their hands -- a half dozen? -- then, at the end of the "lecture", the architect asked the same question, and this time only Jonathan Kay was left to refute the conspiracists -- in other words, those in the audience had been turned into Truthers...In this same column by Kay, Kay noted "39 percent of Canadian respondents said they either disagree or are unsure, that al-Qaeda was responsible for 9/11." So, the insanity (in today's world) is all around us...we've got conspiracy theorists; radical Islamist terrorists (and their non-Muslim supporters/enthusiasts); creationists; Ron Paulbots; you name it -- we've got it...(the common thread seems to be an abandonment of rationality/common sense...)

783 livefreeor die  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:43:38pm

Was it just me or was there a brief hamster outage?

784 dwells38  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:44:07pm

re: #765 Charles

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

The fact of these guys extreme protestations to anyone bashing ID give you an IDEE (as we say here in Keentuck) what ID is all about.

785 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:44:09pm

re: #781 DEZes

I don't link to stalkers.

786 vxbush  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:44:12pm

re: #783 livefreeor die

Was it just me or was there a brief hamster outage?

It wasn't just you. I've been lurking, and I got booted out. I had to log in again.

787 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:44:19pm

re: #765 Charles

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

I'd be tempted to send it to his boss.

788 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:44:28pm

re: #780 Sharmuta

Interesting- one of the banned has compiled a list of other banned users including Lizards who haven't been banned.

I saw that mentioned but I won't click on any links over there.

789 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:44:33pm

re: #780 Sharmuta

Interesting- one of the banned has compiled a list of other banned users including Lizards who haven't been banned.

I live inside their heads.

790 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:44:59pm

re: #785 Sharmuta

I don't link to stalkers.

No, I understand that, drop me a hint?

791 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:45:09pm

re: #780 Sharmuta

Interesting- one of the banned has compiled a list of other banned users including Lizards who haven't been banned.

At you-know-who's site?

792 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:45:27pm

re: #765 Charles

Wow. Just discovered that the guy who sent that "burn in hell, infidel!" email is actually a full-time staff member of Answers in Genesis in Brisbane, now known as Creation Ministries International.

Looks like Ken Ham of CMI used John 3:19 as some kind of debate term for their flock.

793 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:45:44pm

re: #783 livefreeor die

Was it just me or was there a brief hamster outage?

Had a minute of trouble here as well.

794 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:45:52pm

re: #787 MandyManners

I'd be tempted to send it to his boss.

And get the guy a bonus?

795 callahan23  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:46:39pm

Too late for me already. Sleep time, 2:46am local.
Take care {Lizardim}

796 dwells38  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:47:15pm

re: #787 MandyManners

I'd be tempted to send it to his boss.

What you're trying to get the guy promoted?

797 LionOfDixon  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:47:16pm

re: #773 Slumbering Behemoth

Thank you, Dean Wormer.

798 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:47:19pm

OK, I think it's time to create a new category - right-wing political correctness.

Everybody (including me) loves to mock PC. It's been around for a long, long time, like a certain man of wealth and taste.

But there's just as damn much of it on the right as the left.

So, I'm going to throw out the suggestion that we start a list of some of the PC myths and legends, misconceptions and pious lies on the right.

Here's a start:

1. There is no such thing as global warming. Or if there is, there is no way people could possibly have anything to do with it. Or if they do, there is nothing we can do about it without ruining our economy. Or if there is, we shouldn't do it anyway, because it's all a demonic mind-control stealth taxation New World Order plot to create a Single Global Currency and take away your Hummer.

2. Creationists/IDers just want equal time, because one theory is as good as another, and what do you have against God, anyway?

3. Government regulation is always evil.

4. The income tax is unconstitutional.

5. Being against war always makes you an idiot.

6. There is no such thing as a good liberal - they are all secret commies who hate this country and want to take away every one of our freedoms.

7. The Canadians hate their health-care system and would all come here for treatment if we would let 'em.

8. Muslims are [fill in the blank].

9. Glenn Beck may be an idiot, but he's our idiot. We need to support him because there is no other choice. Ditto Spencer, Geller, Coulter, and [fill in the blank].

10. There is no American empire. Everything we've ever done abroad was out of the pure and virtuous goodness of our hearts.

That should get us started.

799 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:47:31pm

re: #795 callahan23

Too late for me already. Sleep time, 2:46am local.
Take care {Lizardim}

Sleep well.

800 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:47:42pm

re: #787 MandyManners

I'd be tempted to send it to his boss.

He'd probably get a raise for it.

801 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:47:50pm

BBIAB. Have to get dinner started.

802 kafir  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:48:07pm

Oy vey.

Ok, work with me here. I almost sent a gentle email to Melanie to point out the problem with her article.

FWIW, I am an ex-scientist, Ph.D. and the works. Hard physical science, physics as it turns out. Changed careers when I saw how hard it was to raise a family on a professor's salary.

The problems come in the arguments from a lack of public understanding of a) what a theory is, b) what makes things scientific, c) whether scientists and ordinary people should 'believe' in theories.

Tackle 'a' and 'b' first.

A scientific theory is device that makes concrete testable predictions, and survives these tests. If something makes no testable predictions, it is not a theory. Period.

Something that is simply an idea that can't or doesn't make predictions, is not, and cannot be a theory. Literally by definition. Moreover, a scientific theory is also by definition, falsifiable. That is, if the tests contradict the theory, the tests win. Not the theory.

You only need one test to falsify a theory.

If you cannot falsify a theory, you cannot test the theory, and therefore it is not a theory.

Intelligent design does not make any testable predictions. Therefore, by definition, it is not a theory. Of anything. It is not falsifiable. It is not testable.

Evolution does make testable predictions. And it has passed all of its tests, that is, nothing that contradicts it has been found. Yet.

Doesn't mean this will always be the case, but to date, it explains every test brought to it.

Intelligent design explains nothing, as it brings no testable hypothesis forward. If you can't falsify it, it is not a theory.

Finally, on to 'c'. Should you believe in theories.

No. Never.

If anyone tells you they believe in evolution, they are, frankly, as bad as those who tell you they believe in ID or creationism. Belief is fundamentally an act of faith, a willingness to accept something without real proof, without testable hypothesis.

You should not believe in the "law" of gravity. Nor in the "law" of evolution. You should accept the fact that at this time, we have no better theories that explain everything as well as our current theories.

Does this preclude you believing in a creator if you wish? No. Can you reconcile the two?

I believe so.

Can you do it without conflict?

Definitely.

But if you want to believe that ID happened and evolution didn't, well, this can't be a scientific belief. As a scientific belief is internally inconsistent. An oxymoron.

Remember Einstein, a pretty bright guy in his own right, said "Subtle is the Lord". There was a reason he said this.

803 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:48:26pm

re: #794 Jim in Virginia

And get the guy a bonus?

Not if his boss is a decent person who doesn't like his staff sending missives in which the recipients are told--verbatim--that they will burn in hell.

804 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:49:41pm

Telling someone--verbatim--that she or he will burn in hell is wrong. It's no one's place to judge.

805 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:49:50pm

re: #789 Charles

I live inside their heads.

Is that where you moved to? Must be cramped living quarters.

806 mithrax  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:50:53pm

re: #804 MandyManners

Telling someone--verbatim--that she or he will burn in hell is wrong. It's no one's place to judge.

And some of us don't need others telling us that fact, we're living it :)

807 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:51:00pm

re: #805 Sharmuta

Is that where you moved to? Must be cramped living quarters.

And the view can't be that good either...

808 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:51:03pm

re: #805 Sharmuta

Is that where you moved to? Must be cramped living quarters.

Can't swing a dead cat by its tail for sure.

809 livefreeor die  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:51:15pm

re: #805 Sharmuta

Is that where you moved to? Must be cramped living quarters.

And the echo can get annoying.

810 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:52:00pm

Charles? Do you need some sweaters and candles? I'm worried you're in the cold and dark.

811 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:52:14pm

Gotta' go round up the young'un. We spent hours at Chuck E. Cheese today and he's just wiped out. bbiab

812 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:52:15pm

Gary Bates:

CEO of CMI–Worldwide, (CMI's global federation of ministries)
Head of Ministry
Speaking
Writing/Editing

He's also a UFO "expert" and author of the oddly titled Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection.

This guy is piece of work.

813 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:52:55pm

re: #810 Sharmuta

Charles? Do you need some sweaters and candles? I'm worried you're in the cold and dark.

And, some Nag Champa. You know it's filled with stink.

814 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:53:27pm

re: #812 Gus 802

Gary Bates:

CEO of CMI–Worldwide, (CMI's global federation of ministries)
Head of Ministry
Speaking
Writing/Editing

He's also a UFO "expert" and author of the oddly titled Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection.

This guy is piece of work.

Master Bates?

815 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:53:38pm

Okay. I'm gone.

816 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:53:44pm

re: #814 MandyManners

Master Bates?

Daily.

//

817 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:54:02pm

re: #812 Gus 802

Gary Bates:

CEO of CMI–Worldwide, (CMI's global federation of ministries)
Head of Ministry
Speaking
Writing/Editing

He's also a UFO "expert" and author of the oddly titled Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection.

This guy is piece of work.

Oh, aliens and evolution....
*rushes to change avatar*

818 irongrampa  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:54:03pm

re: #740 doppelganglander

Andrew Cuomo is not a viable candidate yet, as he's had no known extra-marital affair.

819 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:55:44pm

re: #797 LionOfDixon

Fat, stoned, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

820 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:56:14pm

re: #817 DEZes

Oh, aliens and evolution....
*rushes to change avatar*

Nah. This guy is something else. This is from Amazon:

As a lifelong fan of sci-fi, Gary Bates' extensive background in marketing and communication have positioned him well to present in a fast-paved, gripping read the findings of his specialist research into UFO phenomenon and associated extra-terrestrial beliefs.

Unlike many UFO researchers, he avoids the 'one-size-fits-all' explanation. But in his research, along with uncovering many bizarre claims (and debunking some), leads the reader on a fascinating exploration of myth, mystery, and questions of who we are, how we came to be - and are we alone in this great big universe.

A convert to Christianity, Gary recognizes the way in which UFO beliefs are rapidly escalating in society and the church,challenging the foundations of many faiths. For many years, Gary has been speaking to church audiences on science topics, including creation/evolution. He is currently the head of the ministry development department of what is possibly Australia's largest parachurch organization, one that has spawned sister offices in five other countries.

See above about my comment about an "intelligent agency." How long before there's an offshoot from the Intelligent Design Cult that attributes the designer to an "alien being?"

821 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:56:31pm

re: #812 Gus 802

Gary Bates:

CEO of CMI–Worldwide, (CMI's global federation of ministries)
Head of Ministry
Speaking
Writing/Editing

He's also a UFO "expert" and author of the oddly titled Alien Intrusion: UFOs and the Evolution Connection.

This guy is piece of work.

Nope, that's not the emailer. I'm about to post on it, though.

822 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:56:39pm

re: #783 livefreeor die

Was it just me or was there a brief hamster outage?

Was a lot more than brief for me. It logged me out and when I tried to close my FireFox browser I got a VXD bluescreen. Win98SE sure hates me at times.

823 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:57:14pm

re: #821 Charles

Nope, that's not the emailer. I'm about to post on it, though.

Right, I figured as much. Just looking through the list of people. They have some really strange people on staff.

824 Euler  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:57:37pm

Phillips draws a mysterious distinction:

Intelligent Design posits a creator (that is, well, intelligent): "In coming to the conclusion that a governing intelligence must have been responsible for the ultimate origin of matter, Intelligent Design proponents are essentially saying there must have been a creator."

But not a god:"...ID proponents do not necessarily believe in a personalised Creator, or God."

Ok, an we have an intelligent, but not personalized, creator. Maybe a benevolent cosmic bureaucracy or something. No, that wouldn't be intelligent. Maybe a machine, then. Like HAL. No, too personalized. I'm stumped. Intelligent, not personal, intelligent, not personal....very mysterious. Maybe intelligent, but without self-awareness. Hmmmm.....very mysterious.

825 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:58:31pm

re: #822 FurryOldGuyJeans

Was a lot more than brief for me. It logged me out and when I tried to close my FireFox browser I got a VXD bluescreen. Win98SE sure hates me at times.

Win 98, what are you using, an old 486?

826 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:58:51pm

re: #805 Sharmuta

Is that where you moved to? Must be cramped living quarters.

A very tight efficiency in a very small mind.

827 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:58:54pm

re: #824 Euler

Phillips draws a mysterious distinction:

Intelligent Design posits a creator (that is, well, intelligent): "In coming to the conclusion that a governing intelligence must have been responsible for the ultimate origin of matter, Intelligent Design proponents are essentially saying there must have been a creator."

But not a god:"...ID proponents do not necessarily believe in a personalised Creator, or God."

Ok, an we have an intelligent, but not personalized, creator. Maybe a benevolent cosmic bureaucracy or something. No, that wouldn't be intelligent. Maybe a machine, then. Like HAL. No, too personalized. I'm stumped. Intelligent, not personal, intelligent, not personal....very mysterious. Maybe intelligent, but without self-awareness. Hmmmm.....very mysterious.

Little Green Men

828 mithrax  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:59:00pm

re: #824 Euler


Ugh. Sounds like modern neo-platonic "unmoved mover" stuff.

829 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:59:08pm

re: #823 Gus 802

Right, I figured as much. Just looking through the list of people. They have some really strange people on staff.

You have to be strange to work as staff for such lunacy. How else can one explain a religious organization like the DI being headquartered in UBER-Liberal, ULTRA-Socialist Seattle?

830 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:59:12pm
831 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:59:17pm

re: #826 Jim in Virginia

A very tight efficiency in a very small mind.

Complete with typos galore.

832 IanTheTerrible  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:59:38pm

Living in Austin, I'm really in the epicenter of this debate, and yet it doesn't feel like it at all. Many of you know how different Austin is politico-culturally, and us laypeople rarely interact with the politicians at the capitol.

I actually took a class on the debate here at UT which was incredibly intensive and difficult. It reinforced my position that, although 100% in the right, most scientists are simply not able to convey their ideas in ways that are digestible, or even palatable, to the general population. My professor, Dr. Sahotra Sarkar, for instance, is a perfect example. He would revel in belittling students that asked "stupid" questions and did not seem to understand that even at a great school like Texas, not everyone is as intelligent as him.

This just reinforces my opinion that for science and reason to truly win, it will take non-academic ambassadors. Those of us whose expertise lies elsewhere, yet still follow the "debate", need to be the ones that keep talking about this. I'm just picking it up again--it was too depressing for a long time. But things that are important are usually that way.

I've written it about it on my blog and for The Daily Texan, and my dander is getting up so there may be a lot more to come. Read, leave comments, enjoy.

833 yochanan  Sun, May 3, 2009 5:59:39pm

re: #819 Slumbering Behemoth

stoned makes you forget the other 2

834 Jim in Virginia  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:00:18pm

re: #811 MandyManners

Gotta' go round up the young'un. We spent hours at Chuck E. Cheese today and he's just wiped out. bbiab


You poor woman. Thank God my kids have outgrown Chuck E Cheese

835 erraticsphinx  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:00:23pm

Hi, this is my first post at LGF!

Thanks for being such a strong voice against Radical Islamists...while still being sane, Charles.

836 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:00:30pm

re: #825 DEZes

Win 98, what are you using, an old 486?

Actually one of the first 1GHz AMD Athlon chips. I have looked at XP and Vista and I can neither afford to lose the money or sanity required to upgrade.

837 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:00:49pm

re: #805 Sharmuta

Is that where you moved to? Must be cramped living quarters.

Are you kidding? The accommodations are extremely spacious. There is nothing else in there.

838 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:00:53pm

LOL Someone over at that unnamed blog is bitching about getting redirected.

839 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:01:08pm

re: #833 yochanan

stoned makes you forget the other 2

Careful, its sharpening Occam's razor as we type.
Where did I put that pillow.

840 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:01:34pm

re: #829 FurryOldGuyJeans

You have to be strange to work as staff for such lunacy. How else can one explain a religious organization like the DI being headquartered in UBER-Liberal, ULTRA-Socialist Seattle?

I always found it odd that they would have been based in Seattle. Although, the NW has some rather odd contradictions like White Supremacists at Seattle's door and other associated groups. No comparing these quacks to them but seeing the contrasts -- sometimes those contrasting sub-cultures create the most oddball of extremists.

841 dwells38  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:01:51pm

re: #802 kafir


Intelligent design does not make any testable predictions. Therefore, by definition, it is not a theory. Of anything. It is not falsifiable. It is not testable.

Evolution does make testable predictions. And it has passed all of its tests, that is, nothing that contradicts it has been found. Yet.
blockquote>

Right. So they didn't find the intelligent designer fossil yet or his spaceship or his intergalactic I-pod. Just a bunch of imprints of extinct creatures in rock like trilobytes, dinosaurs, pterasaurs, transitional looking horses & whales and the like that looks a lot like what we know is in the current natural world. And when they unravelled DNA it just spelled GACACAACCC.... Not "HEY YOU FOUND ME! WAY TO GO" or directions to the home planet in Ursa Major.

842 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:02:17pm

re: #831 Sharmuta

Complete with typos galore.

Spellcheck is a satanic and evil plot to take over believers.

843 Zoomie  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:02:24pm

Good show Melanie. ID is not Islamic, Roman Catholic, Anglican,Baptist, or Methodist. It is a line of inquiry that is perfectly valid except for temporary censorship here and there. ID does have the head wind of 'burr under the saddle' materialists.

844 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:02:44pm

re: #835 erraticsphinx

Hi, this is my first post at LGF!

Thanks for being such a strong voice against Radical Islamists...while still being sane, Charles.

Welcome! I'll take a martini, please.

845 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:02:46pm

re: #838 Pvt Bin Jammin

LOL Someone over at that unnamed blog is bitching about getting redirected.

I love that idiot redirect. LMAO

846 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:02:54pm

re: #836 FurryOldGuyJeans

Actually one of the first 1GHz AMD Athlon chips. I have looked at XP and Vista and I can neither afford to lose the money or sanity required to upgrade.

I have an old 1.2 AMD machine sitting in mothballs.
Was a fine machine in its day.

847 Sharmuta  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:03:28pm

re: #843 Zoomie

There is no validity to ID- it's not science, and it's bad theology.

848 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:04:27pm
849 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:04:30pm

re: #840 Gus 802

I always found it odd that they would have been based in Seattle. Although, the NW has some rather odd contradictions like White Supremacists at Seattle's door and other associated groups. No comparing these quacks to them but seeing the contrasts -- sometimes those contrasting sub-cultures create the most oddball of extremists.

The White Supremacists are on the east side of the Cascades, while the Leftoids are on the west side. Having a mountain range keeps the moonbattery of both sides relatively unmixed.

Hard to explain why the DI set up their revival tent in Seattle.

850 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:04:35pm

re: #845 Sharmuta

I wonder if it's that real nasty redirect? LOL

851 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:05:22pm

re: #835 erraticsphinx

Hi, this is my first post at LGF!

Thanks for being such a strong voice against Radical Islamists...while still being sane, Charles.

Welcome, oh, you have some eggshell behind your right ear. ;)

852 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:05:30pm

re: #843 Zoomie

Good show Melanie. ID is not Islamic, Roman Catholic, Anglican,Baptist, or Methodist. It is a line of inquiry that is perfectly valid except for temporary censorship here and there. ID does have the head wind of 'burr under the saddle' materialists.

:sigh:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

853 Hhar  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:05:42pm

She sounds to me like she is both confused and defensive, so she has probably bought the line from the DI. Too bad.

Much of it is her own ignorance and bias, in all probability. She may be feeling defensive because of the relentless posturing of "the New Atheists" (Dawkins, Hitchens et al) on this issue: a posturing that attacks theism fairly relentlessly, and uses evolution and cosmology as a rhetorical club. (I've always thought evolution was G-d's gift to atheists). But it really is her responsibility, and she should do better.

854 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:05:50pm

re: #849 FurryOldGuyJeans

The White Supremacists are on the east side of the Cascades, while the Leftoids are on the west side. Having a mountain range keeps the moonbattery of both sides relatively unmixed.

Hard to explain why the DI set up their revival tent in Seattle.

It was probably the evolution of DI. //

855 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:05:52pm

re: #843 Zoomie

You got that right. ID is just plain religious dogma crackpotism.

856 jaunte  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:06:40pm

re: #843 Zoomie

Good show Melanie. ID is not Islamic, Roman Catholic, Anglican,Baptist, or Methodist. It is a line of inquiry that is perfectly valid except for temporary censorship here and there. ID does have the head wind of 'burr under the saddle' materialists.

With what would you suggest replacing the 'materialist' scientific method of experimentation?

857 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:06:51pm

cdesign proponentsists
Wedge Document
Behe's testimony
etc,etc,etc....

Ignore away...

858 livefreeor die  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:07:07pm

re: #835 erraticsphinx

Hi, this is my first post at LGF!

Thanks for being such a strong voice against Radical Islamists...while still being sane, Charles.

Welcome! Hope you're stocked up on troll repellent.

859 solomonpanting  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:07:09pm

From her previous article Phillips makes clear her position on the Creationism/ID/Evolution debate:

Lennox observed that acknowledgement of a deistic god was the position arrived at recently by the celebrated former atheist philosopher Anthony Flew; and that saying a good case could be made for such a god ‘knocked the heart out’ of Dawkins’s core contention that complex life forms had derived from simple ones.

860 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:07:34pm

re: #835 erraticsphinx

Hi, this is my first post at LGF!

Thanks for being such a strong voice against Radical Islamists...while still being sane, Charles.


Welcome! Glad your first post wasn't a meltdown :^)

861 dwells38  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:07:45pm

re: #827 Gus 802


And what is the favorite game of Little Green Men?

Of course! Little Green Football! It all points to a Lizardoid conspiracy if you ask me.

BTW Harry Turtledove wrote an awsome alternative history where a race of fascist alien Lizardoids invade Earth interrupting WWII and upsetting the balance of power and alliances. Sounds ridiculous but check it out if if you like Sci-Fi.

862 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:07:50pm

re: #846 DEZes

I have an old 1.2 AMD machine sitting in mothballs.
Was a fine machine in its day.

If it were still working I'd take the thing in a heartbeat. I collect and refurbish older machines like dogs collect and scratch fleas.

863 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:08:21pm
864 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:08:42pm

re: #843 Zoomie

Good show Melanie. ID is not Islamic, Roman Catholic, Anglican,Baptist, or Methodist. It is a line of inquiry that is perfectly valid except for temporary censorship here and there. ID does have the head wind of 'burr under the saddle' materialists.

Everyone is entitled to believe in the Magic 8 Ball and the Ouija Board. Melanie Phillips is also entitled to defend the pseudo-science of Intelligent Design. However non of these things should be confused with science or reality. Essentially it all belongs in a toy store.

865 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:08:45pm

"what if God is one of us...
just a slob like one of us"

866 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:10:17pm

re: #862 FurryOldGuyJeans

If it were still working I'd take the thing in a heartbeat. I collect and refurbish older machines like dogs collect and scratch fleas.

Oh it works fine, the DVD reader is junk, but other than that its still a good machine, but with 3 other machines around me, it got set in a closet.

867 Gus  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:10:21pm

re: #861 dwells38

Roger.

868 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:11:41pm

Going for a walk. There's an intelligently designed home for sale a couple of blocks over. Good chance to stretch my legs, walk the mutt, and see what it looks like at night...

869 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:11:51pm

re: #843 Zoomie

Good show Melanie. ID is not Islamic, Roman Catholic, Anglican,Baptist, or Methodist.

True.

It is a line of inquiry that is perfectly valid except for temporary censorship here and there.

Not true. It is a rogue teleological philosophy warmed over from pagan Greeks. It was "valid" only as a placeholder until modern scientific rationalism came along.

ID does have the head wind of 'burr under the saddle' materialists.

I have no earthly idea what this is supposed to mean.

870 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:12:26pm

re: #866 DEZes

Oh it works fine, the DVD reader is junk, but other than that its still a good machine, but with 3 other machines around me, it got set in a closet.

I upgrade quite a lot, parts being easier and cheaper to replace than getting a decent new machine. Read what I said, DECENT NEW MACHINE. I am not talking about some weirdo off brand or a Dell. ;)

871 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:14:45pm

OMG! Charles isn't just getting a Zionist check, he is also getting money from George Soros.

6. Skippy on 3 May, 2009 at 5:51 pm

Soros. :!:

I’m telling you guys, Soros has stuffed money into Chucky’s pocket. Think about it, Soros is all over the internet funding websites that push his Leftist agenda. It is brought to his attention that there is a moderately popular website out there that has a lot of free thinking conservatives posing stuff that makes sense. Soros looks into it and decides that the only way to combat it is to pad the wallet of the blog owner

BWaaahhhhaaaaaa.

BTW Charles love the "You Are An Idiot" redirect.

872 albusteve  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:15:13pm

re: #870 FurryOldGuyJeans

I upgrade quite a lot, parts being easier and cheaper to replace than getting a decent new machine. Read what I said, DECENT NEW MACHINE. I am not talking about some weirdo off brand or a Dell. ;)

dig that...I've rebuilt my HP320 twice...a solid fast machine...2 hundred each time, software and all

873 DEZes  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:15:44pm

re: #870 FurryOldGuyJeans

I upgrade quite a lot, parts being easier and cheaper to replace than getting a decent new machine. Read what I said, DECENT NEW MACHINE. I am not talking about some weirdo off brand or a Dell. ;)

Built my last one myself, 900 dollars in parts for the tower.
and its still not enough machine.

874 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:16:12pm

re: #716 Charles

Tonight's threat that I'm going to burn in hell comes from a creationist in Australia who emails every time I post something like this:

Could that dick be more of a conceited, smug douche if they tried?

875 erraticsphinx  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:16:58pm

Thanks for the welcome guys.

I've been reading the blog for ages, but always seemed to just miss the registration timings, hahahah.

On the topic at hand:

This is really sad. I've read Londonistan and I thought it was a pretty good expose, and devastating against "New" Labour's philosophy.
I don't know, sometimes I wonder if some people in the anti-jihad movement are in it because they want their own religion's bullyboys to push the little kids around, and not because of just basic values like democracy and freedom.
Embracing Intelligent Design, associated with Euro-Fascists, associated with plain old-Fascists- aaaaaaaahhhhh.

I dunno, I just think militant nativism and scientific ignorance is not something to brushed over in the name of fighting Jihad.

Just my thoughts.

876 kafir  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:17:02pm

re: #841 dwells38

Right. So they didn't find the intelligent designer fossil yet or his spaceship or his intergalactic I-pod. Just a bunch of imprints of extinct creatures in rock like trilobytes, dinosaurs, pterasaurs, transitional looking horses & whales and the like that looks a lot like what we know is in the current natural world. And when they unravelled DNA it just spelled GACACAACCC.... Not "HEY YOU FOUND ME! WAY TO GO" or directions to the home planet in Ursa Major.

You should read Carl Sagan's book "Contact" some time. Its funny what is found ...

Ok, seriously, we seem to keep finding a consistent pattern for organic life. At least on this planet. What is so interesting is positing this same mechanism for Europa and other locations in the solar system potentially capable of supporting life.

We find single celled creatures who have lifetimes far shorter than ours, responding to pressure in ways that evolution predicts. There is an experiment up the street from me at Michigan State University that recently demonstrated e. Coli developing the ability to metabolize something it hasn't been able to in the past. We see bacteria responding to drug therapies by learning how to build resistance to these therapies, thus generating MSRA and other nasty "superbugs".

Basically we can observe evolution in the lab, and we can test it. We seem to find the same patterns again and again. This usually means that there is a deeper principle at work (not ID), but a hidden theorem that we haven't quite grokked yet.

Creationism isn't testable. We know this. If it were testable, we could falsify religion that supports it, and we really don't want to go there. Unfortunately, ID is similar in this regard.

Our cometary halo (Kupier belt) seems to have comets with lots of CHON type organics. If this is true everywhere in the universe, then we likely have many cousins under different stars.

ID is a seductive idea. It sounds good to some, but really, it opens up more questions, and inevitably leads to a belief system. Which is find for a religion. It isn't fine for a scientific theory.

877 solomonpanting  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:17:03pm

re: #865 albusteve

"what if God is one of us...
just a slob like one of us"

I guess He wouldn't be God, then.

878 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:17:05pm

re: #859 solomonpanting

Dawkins addresses that in this video. Basically, Lennox clearly quote-mined and Melanie ate it up.

879 [deleted]  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:17:42pm
880 Van Helsing  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:19:13pm
881 MandyManners  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:20:09pm

re: #863 buzzsawmonkey

One Tin Soldier

I love that song!

882 Van Helsing  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:26:25pm

re: #881 MandyManners

I love that song!

Always makes me cry.

883 Joel  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:38:44pm

re: #513 Zimriel

Here's my take on Phillips: all her articles on "Londonistan" and such, came about because she fears Islam as a competitor to Christianity. They did not come about because she appreciates the West as an Enlightenment society.

Melanie Phillips is Jewish!

884 wiffersnapper  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:40:18pm

2 out of 3 (anti-jihad, anti-eurofascism) is better than most I'd say. Maybe she'll come around.

885 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:42:44pm

Dinner. Have a good night

886 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:44:07pm

re: #866 DEZes

Oh it works fine, the DVD reader is junk, but other than that its still a good machine, but with 3 other machines around me, it got set in a closet.

DVD drives are cheap nowadays...burners for about $20 and up, readers for less than that (that only read DVDs, but may burn CDs; read-only drives are rare nowadays).

887 Zoomie  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:49:29pm

A doubting materialist -- a creature with a soul and spirit...who somehow, mysteriously, recognizes that the personality, logic, beauty, justice, and lack of justice embodied in his or her fellow creatures points to more than carbon hydrogen and the electromagnetic spectrum.

888 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:55:52pm

re: #848 buzzsawmonkey

Step up, folks! Mixed Metaphors are now being served at the open bar!

And roast troll will soon be on the grill.

889 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:57:05pm

re: #871 Bubblehead II

OMG! Charles isn't just getting a Zionist check, he is also getting money from George Soros.

6. Skippy on 3 May, 2009 at 5:51 pm

Soros. :!:

I’m telling you guys, Soros has stuffed money into Chucky’s pocket. Think about it, Soros is all over the internet funding websites that push his Leftist agenda. It is brought to his attention that there is a moderately popular website out there that has a lot of free thinking conservatives posing stuff that makes sense. Soros looks into it and decides that the only way to combat it is to pad the wallet of the blog owner

BWaaahhhhaaaaaa.

BTW Charles love the "You Are An Idiot" redirect.

They're on to me!

890 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 6:57:38pm

re: #887 Zoomie

Oh brother.

891 Zoomie  Sun, May 3, 2009 7:09:59pm

re: #888 Dark_Falcon

And roast troll will soon be on the grill.

Are you in charge of labeling non conformists? Do you run in packs? Was that the signal to attack?

Just a fellow LGFer concerned about high taxes, weakened defense, strong rational border enforcement, property rights, freedom of religion and expression.

892 Zoomie  Sun, May 3, 2009 7:20:39pm

re: #890 Charles

Great site Charles. Unobjective about ID -- my opinion. I think ID is rational. Though I was not seeking him at the Air Force Academy, I believe the Holy Spirit tracked me down and moved me to God. So I am clearly not objective either. I am a 100% believer in science and the Bible. Some are 100% for materialism and evolution and many are in between. I'll continue to advocate with you for our constitutional rights and protections. (Ouch I can feel my LGF karma dropping.)

893 jaunte  Sun, May 3, 2009 7:23:12pm

re: #892 Zoomie

The problem with IDers is that they are quite revolutionary about overthrowing accepted scientific methods, but notably vague about what they intend as a (usable) replacement.

894 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, May 3, 2009 7:55:59pm

re: #863 buzzsawmonkey

One Tin Soldier

Here's my parody, of that

Listen, Children, to a story
That was written recently
Of a nation and its people
Who lived rich and free

Then the nation they elected
A president commie
And he took away their freedoms
They guarded religiously

Go ahead and be a commie
Go ahead enslave your friends
You can do it in the name of progress
And justify it in the end
There won’t be any freedoms ringing
Come election day
On the voting ballot
Obama is all they’d see

Then the people rose in anger
With their teabags they did go
And they showed the commie bastard
And they made him go
Then they raised a standard
Held high above their heads
Showed it to those they rescued
Freedom to Man was all it said

Go ahead and be a commie
Go ahead enslave your friends
You can do it in the name of progress
And justify it in the end
But there will be freedom ringing
Come election day
For the people spoke
And they made us free.

895 Zoomie  Sun, May 3, 2009 8:02:07pm

re: #893 jaunte

The problem with IDers is that they are quite revolutionary about overthrowing accepted scientific methods, but notably vague about what they intend as a (usable) replacement.

Fair enough. I will zing my IDer friends with that. I do not pretend to be practicing bench scientists. True also of many of the materialists here.

896 Van Helsing  Sun, May 3, 2009 8:12:02pm

re: #894 Kosh's Shadow

That was good.

897 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, May 3, 2009 8:30:19pm

re: #896 Van Helsing

That was good.

Thank you. I had written it a while ago, but since the original was mentioned, I thought I'd post it again.

898 Tom on the rez  Sun, May 3, 2009 8:51:55pm

Just wanna point out that rising CO2 is not a cause of climate warming - it's a result, a fact borne out by glacial ice cores. Also, one can believe in the facts of evolution and still believe in a god that directs it. This is the original "Intelligent Design," before the name was misappropriated by evolution deniers.

899 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:16:14pm

re: #898 Tom on the rez

Just wanna point out that rising CO2 is not a cause of climate warming - it's a result, a fact borne out by glacial ice cores.

That's not a fact, it's an opinion -- your opinion. And it's not shared by the vast majority of scientists who've actually studied the issue.

900 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:16:17pm

re: #898 Tom on the rez

I miss the Raelians... they were a lot more fun.

901 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:17:30pm

re: #898 Tom on the rez

Ok, let me ask you a science question:

Why do the Earth and the Moon have different average temperatures?

902 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:32:18pm

re: #901 freetoken

Ok, let me ask you a science question:

Why do the Earth and the Moon have different average temperatures?

The atmosphere keeps heat from radiating away, and carries heat from the day side to the night side.

903 Synesius  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:46:29pm

That ID'ers may impose their views through the school system is not so troubling as the fact that ANYONE can use the monopoly of state education to indoctrinate kids. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Contradiction is the mother of insight. The tiny minority of students who are capable of original thought might actually be inspired to challenge whatever orthodoxy is rammed down their throats, IF they see it is not universally held. Sell the schools!

904 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:53:28pm

re: #902 Kosh's Shadow

I guess I wasn't really looking for an answer, or at least a once sentence answer. I was hoping that Tom on the rez would be challenged to not just pop in with a standard skeptic/denialist (pick one) blurb, but actually think about cause and effect.

905 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 9:57:59pm

re: #706 LionOfDixon

Ahh...but what created life? Your description starts with the premise that life already exists...

That's what evolution addresses; the origin of life is dealt with be (surprise!) origins of life theory, a diffrent discipline.

It also fails to mention anything about natural selection. Everything changes form eventually, not just life.

True; it doesn't mention the environment, which selectionally dictates which genetically random life form changes survive.

906 Zimriel  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:02:29pm

re: #883 Joel

Melanie Phillips is Jewish!

Yeah, I momentarily forgot.

907 Throbert McGee  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:07:01pm

re: #892 Zoomie

Great site Charles. Unobjective about ID -- my opinion. I think ID is rational.

Zoomie, do you understand the point that it's possible to believe in an intelligent designer behind the Universe, and simultaneously to oppose and reject "Intelligent Design" -- and that there's no contradiction or paradox involved in that?

908 Tom on the rez  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:07:10pm

re: #901 freetoken

Okay, what's the punch line?

909 Tom on the rez  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:16:56pm

re: #900 freetoken

Sorry to have challenged anyone's AGW religion. At least we Raeliens don't try to teach our religion in public schools ... plus, we've just about got that cloning stuff perfected.

910 freetoken  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:18:32pm

re: #908 Tom on the rez

Okay, what's the punch line?

There is no punch line. It was not a trick question.

911 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:25:24pm

re: #843 Zoomie

Good show Melanie. ID is not Islamic, Roman Catholic, Anglican,Baptist, or Methodist. It is a line of inquiry that is perfectly valid except for temporary censorship here and there. ID does have the head wind of 'burr under the saddle' materialists.

Please show me the peer-reviewed empirical science papers that document ID interrogating, experimenting, or inquiring.

And please demonstrate how one goes about empirically inquiring concerning the extra-empirical, or using matural material menas to interrogate the supernatural and immaterial.

You can't. Because ID is sectarian religious dogma, not empirical science (and it is sectarian because plenty of religions disagree with its creation myth).

Empirical science, otoh, is not sectarian, but truly universal. Everyone's biology, physics and chemistry are the same.

912 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:36:19pm

re: #887 Zoomie

A doubting materialist -- a creature with a soul and spirit...who somehow, mysteriously, recognizes that the personality, logic, beauty, justice, and lack of justice embodied in his or her fellow creatures points to more than carbon hydrogen and the electromagnetic spectrum.

Yeah; it involves the combination of the number of cortical neurons and the level of complexity of their dendritic and axonal interconnections breaching the Godelian threshhold and permitting recursive self-reference - that is, self-conscious awareness.

Read the book I Am A Strange Loop by Douglas R. Hofstadter (the guy who wrote Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid).

913 Salamantis  Sun, May 3, 2009 10:45:12pm

re: #892 Zoomie

Great site Charles. Unobjective about ID -- my opinion. I think ID is rational. Though I was not seeking him at the Air Force Academy, I believe the Holy Spirit tracked me down and moved me to God. So I am clearly not objective either. I am a 100% believer in science and the Bible. Some are 100% for materialism and evolution and many are in between. I'll continue to advocate with you for our constitutional rights and protections. (Ouch I can feel my LGF karma dropping.)

If ID is talking about a deity, it is just the PR propaganda relabeled creationism that we know it is from documented Disco Institute history. If, however, it is talking about either microorganism meteorite seeding or little green men dropping off some starter life, both the microorganisms and the little green men would have had to themselves evolve on other planets. So all ID does is kick the evolutionary can down the cosmic road without, however, kicking it off that road.

Show us the rationality in ID. Then show us the objectiveness in it. And once you do that, show us the empirical evidence for it. We have been unable to find either.

914 Bob Levin  Sun, May 3, 2009 11:52:02pm

I think the problem is that the issue is defined in a polarizing manner. All throughout this debate, it has been stated that belief in Gd and science needn't be at odds. I have no doubt that this is true. But finding either the balance between the two camps, or the right perspective that allows a melding of science and religion is intellectually a very difficult task. A person can find thousands of articles taking a position on the side of science against those who have religious convictions, and a person can find another thousand articles taking a religious position while diminishing science. But how many articles can you find walking the appropriate way to join the two? Not too many. Personally, I like to read about science, and it makes me more religious. And studying religious texts makes me curious about scientific findings. The bottom line regarding Melanie Phillips, I believe she's trying to do something that sounds much easier to do than it is doing. And even if you think it's difficult marrying religion and science, it's still much harder to do it.

915 Mr Secul  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:06:33am

re: #69 Empire1

Shhh, keep quiet, if the Eddorians learn of the plan too soon then they might be able to thwart it. The Arisians are not yet ready to reveal their existence; our civilization must be allowed to fall.

916 freetoken  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:14:37am

re: #914 Bob Levin

The bottom line regarding Melanie Phillips, I believe she's trying to do something that sounds much easier to do than it is doing.

Refresh my mind... Exactly what is that something that she is trying to do?

917 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:40:18am

Okay, I'm speculating. But I've been reading her stuff for years and I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt. What she is trying to do, what she is hoping to accomplish, I believe, is to get through this thick jungle of a debate that arises out of this historical tension between religion and science. I think she is striving towards a productive resolution of that tension. I think a lot of folks would like to see this resolved, but many more times than not, someone cuts through the vines only to find themselves in quicksand.

918 Mr Secul  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:01:38am

re: #212 rightymouse

I'll give Melanie the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. The terms 'creationism' and 'intelligent design' were very confusing to me at first. I did not realize that they were tied to young earthers and those who believe that all living things were created in their current form. Am a Christian, but definitely NOT a young earther - mostly because I'm not a Biblical literalist. Can't be. Dad was a Biblical translator and told me things that would make many literalists cringe. Doesn't change our basic faith in G-d. Just keeps things in perspective.

Once again knowledge proves to be inimical to biblical literalism.

919 Mr Secul  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:05:26am

re: #226 Liberal Classic

This is an interesting speculation. We're in an interglacial period now. Will the earth experience another period of glaciation, or leave glaciation all together? No one really knows.

The politicians are (as usual) asking the wrong question. They're asking "how do we stop global warming?" The real question IMO is how will human civilization cope with climate change. It's either going to be rising seas or glaciers.

Tru7h

920 Mr Secul  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:25:21am

re: #341 Sharmuta

Whoa- wait a minute! She said:

But today she's saying they're not related. Which one is it, Melanie?

Is that a whiff of dishonesty Melanie?

Sniff, sniff...

What's that smell?

Smells like... bullshit!

921 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:47:59am

Man, Melanie is getting toasty roasted in her comments section. And quite justifiably so.

Maybe if she keeps getting hit in the forehead with the cluebat enough, she'll awaken from her dogmatic slumber.

I hope. I doubt.

922 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:57:48am

But in the end, if all one cares about is filthy lucre, and truth, logic, and empirical evidence take a backseat, she's right where she wants to be.

Controversy is good for her bottom line. Even if it's deservedly negative. It's all about the Benjamins.

She's morphing into just another bought-off extremist-hawking, idiotarian-pandering, bullshit-shilling media whore. Just like Ann Coulter. And Glenn Beck. And Ben Stein. And Michael Savage. And Keith Olbermann. And Michael Moore.

923 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:14:38am

My goodness, she writes for years giving people valuable information, she is reasonable, logical, she tells the truth, and the first thing that even sounds like a sour note and folks are eager to toss her under a bus. Who exactly are the ones being literal and closed minded? I'm not familiar with this 'one strike and you're out' game.

924 freetoken  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:24:43am

re: #923 Bob Levin

My goodness, she writes for years giving people valuable information, she is reasonable, logical, she tells the truth, and the first thing that even sounds like a sour note and folks are eager to toss her under a bus.

Sorry, but it is not the "first" of anything. As I tried to chronicle in various posts in this thread, Ms. Phillips has been doing this for year. Not just on creationism, but also as an anti-vaccine crusader.

925 freetoken  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:25:34am

That should have been "years", at least since 2002, perhaps before.

926 Mr Secul  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:41:37am

re: #550 longlivethe80s

Besides doesn't the lack of cast offs or unfit specimens in the fossil record raise a whole lot of doubt on Darwin's theory?re: #921 Salamantis

Did you see this comment?

[Link: www.spectator.co.uk...]

Search for the text:

Richard Forrest
May 1st, 2009 9:13am

927 Fabio P.Barbieri  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:41:57am

Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration.
One has to wonder at the appalling inferiority complex that feeds this sort of attitude. Yes, poor Christianity that has not received "serious consideration" for generations - except of course from CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, Thomas Mann, hundreds of Nobel Prizewinners in all disciplines, etc etc, all the way to the most prominent and successful public intellectual now living - Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI. What they really mean is that American Fundamentalism gets no serious consideration. And at that point it becomes clear that their reasoning is circular - and hostile: since their very provincial version of Christianity (whose largest bodies reject its presuppositions) is not taken seriously, then they will batter at what they conceive to be the intellectual foundations of modernity until they force the rest of us to do so by hook or by crook.
Poor self-deceived twits. They aren't going anywhere. Even supposing that they managed to sue, threaten or buy every living scientist till their nonsense is taken seriously, they still can never convince the Vatican and the Orthodox Church that their fantastic innovations have anything to do with Christianity. At the end of the ir battle, they will still be exactly where they started - as a marginal, provincial and ridiculed phenomenon.

928 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:47:20am

Well, I think I popped into the discussion at #914, so I didn't get a chance to read everything before, and I'm sorry about that--but let's say that you do disagree with her, or that, heaven forbid, she is wrong about something, do you think she's a person beyond reason, beyond rational discussion? I think the problem that so many folks have is that their opinions aren't subject to discussion or reason. It's not that folks have opinions or take sides, it's that once they have an opinion, that's it. Once they take a side, there's no amount of evidence that can make them cross back. She doesn't strike me as being intransigent.

929 PatriotLizardoid  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:18:29am

re: #928 Bob Levin

Here's where I popped in the discussion as well. I think, to be fair, there are more options than just misled or dishonest. Bob is right, but I'll go one further and say that people who do honestly disagree with us are very good people to debate with, and some of my greatest intellectual opponents are neither stupid or liars.

The scientific community has always been riddled with the most contentious debate though, this is nothing new. I think Alfred Wegener (plate tectonic theory dude) died alone and penniless as an intellectual outcast on a glacier in Greenland. Only posthumously did everyone look up and say "hey, he was right!"

930 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:31:09am

Absolutely. The critique of science with which I'm most familiar is that the fields of science aren't scientific enough. The works of Thomas Kuhn and James Burke show this continually. Another scientific outcast was Semmelweis, his first name escapes me at the moment. Dared to say doctors should was their hands before operating--simply outrageous! Because of him Vienna had neither tar nor feathers for weeks.

931 Berndt  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:44:44am

Well, intelligent design - these days - is linked to the ultra-religious. But if we ignore that for a minute and bring in one of the best books of modern age - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - then Intelligent Design IS a viable option. After all, aren't we quite arrogant in assuming that what we think to know know is the final truth? Maybe mice really ARE the most intelligent creatures of the planet and maybe Earth II WAS built by designers from Vogon. That consensus these days says something different does not make it true by definition....

932 PatriotLizardoid  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:52:48am

I haven't done a whole lot of research (I have a full time job and 2 kids you know), but I do have a zoology degree from the University of Washington, am a strong proponent of evolutionary biology and whenever I can I point out concepts of natural selection to my kiddos. THAT SAID, I am also a devout Christian and don't give one patooty what any pastor OR scientist says. Evolution by natural selection IS intelligent design of the highest, most elegant order. I didn't learn to believe in God until I went tide pooling.

Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so

..hmm... and how might the earth do such a thing?

933 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:07:57am

Some peoples' minds are simply made up, and cannot be swayed by mere logic, facts, or empirical evidence. They are completely and utterly deaf to the sweet seductive voice of reason. After all, they weren't reasoned INTO their positions in the first place, so how can they possible be reasoned OUT OF them?

It ain't about intellection with them; it's all about emotion. They WANT their creationist warm fuzzy, and by God, they'll HAVE it, come Hell, disproof, or high water!

934 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:09:37am

re: #931 Berndt

Well, intelligent design - these days - is linked to the ultra-religious. But if we ignore that for a minute and bring in one of the best books of modern age - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - then Intelligent Design IS a viable option. After all, aren't we quite arrogant in assuming that what we think to know know is the final truth? Maybe mice really ARE the most intelligent creatures of the planet and maybe Earth II WAS built by designers from Vogon. That consensus these days says something different does not make it true by definition....

We're dealing with science fact here. Science fiction is down the next aisle.

935 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:15:40am

re: #932 PatriotLizardoid

I haven't done a whole lot of research (I have a full time job and 2 kids you know), but I do have a zoology degree from the University of Washington, am a strong proponent of evolutionary biology and whenever I can I point out concepts of natural selection to my kiddos. THAT SAID, I am also a devout Christian and don't give one patooty what any pastor OR scientist says. Evolution by natural selection IS intelligent design of the highest, most elegant order. I didn't learn to believe in God until I went tide pooling.

Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so

..hmm... and how might the earth do such a thing?

Well, it had plenty of resources ( all the elements and their molecular compound combinations) and plenty of energy (from the sun and from undersea vents) and a helluva lotta time (4 1/2 billion - not million - years), plus a handy-dandy mechanism called evolution, comprised of, among other components, random genetic evolution and nonrandom environmental selection, so it makes eminent sense that it blindly blundered into a way.

936 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:19:51am

re: #930 Bob Levin

Absolutely. The critique of science with which I'm most familiar is that the fields of science aren't scientific enough. The works of Thomas Kuhn and James Burke show this continually. Another scientific outcast was Semmelweis, his first name escapes me at the moment. Dared to say doctors should was their hands before operating--simply outrageous! Because of him Vienna had neither tar nor feathers for weeks.

Oh, puh-LEEEZE! Now you're gonna try to whip out the postmodernist deconstructionists on us? They stick their stinky feet in their big dumb mouths and cut their throats on their hangnails every time they try to say something remotely relevant about empirical science. Just google the Sokal Affair.

937 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:25:48am

re: #929 PatriotLizardoid

Here's where I popped in the discussion as well. I think, to be fair, there are more options than just misled or dishonest. Bob is right, but I'll go one further and say that people who do honestly disagree with us are very good people to debate with, and some of my greatest intellectual opponents are neither stupid or liars.

The scientific community has always been riddled with the most contentious debate though, this is nothing new. I think Alfred Wegener (plate tectonic theory dude) died alone and penniless as an intellectual outcast on a glacier in Greenland. Only posthumously did everyone look up and say "hey, he was right!"

Some scientific theories come and go; others come and stay. Evolution has been with us for 150 years. It has been supported by ALL the empirical evidence, and contradicted by NONE of it. It is one of the most massively verified theories in the history of science. It's no more going anywhere than are the germ theory of disease, the heliocentric theory of the solar system, the spherical theory of the earth, Einsteinin relativity, or Feynmannian quantum mechanics.

938 Epaminondas  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:30:36am

Melanie is the real deal, period.

Intelligent design must ultimately be a matter of faith since the designer's existence cannot (yet, to be fair), be proven to exist.

Neither could a muon 20 years ago. More than this we cannot say.

I don't think it should be taught, therefore as science, but it would properly belong in social studies. However, stripped of emotional stupidities I would not BAN a science teacher from his students having an open discussion on this. Free and open debate cannot harm objective reality.

939 PatriotLizardoid  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:32:43am

re: #935 Salamantis

I don't disagree agree with you at all. What I find enormously fascinating as well is that we see natural selection taking place not only with carbon-based life (that metabolizes via respiration or photosynthesis) but also with sulfur-based life at the undersea vents. There is an emerging field in marine biology in studying evolutionary mechanisms of those systems as well. So your point about having help from undersea vents is timely.

Belief is not science, science is not belief. The issue I have with the ID movement is that it futilely tries to couch its belief in scientific terms in order to mislead people. Having faith just isn't enough for them. For them it has to be provable, so they hijack science. Faith is never, can never be, and will never be, provable. As a religious person, asserting that my faith is somehow verifiable would be intellectually dishonest.

940 PatriotLizardoid  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:34:31am

re: #937 Salamantis

Once again, I agree. My entire education (a very good one at that) is based on it. And those who say that we can't see "evolution in action" have never heard of Drosophila

941 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:59:07am

re: #938 Epaminondas

Melanie is the real deal, period.

Intelligent design must ultimately be a matter of faith since the designer's existence cannot (yet, to be fair), be proven to exist.

Neither could a muon 20 years ago. More than this we cannot say.

I don't think it should be taught, therefore as science, but it would properly belong in social studies. However, stripped of emotional stupidities I would not BAN a science teacher from his students having an open discussion on this. Free and open debate cannot harm objective reality.

What about teaching ALL the different religious creation myths in a single class? We can't, to be fair and impartial, leave any of them out - plus there's always the bare possibility that the one we leave out might be the one that's empirically true (heh).

And let's call this class comparative religion class!

But let's not allow the Disco Institute to use local pastors to program kids like zombic memebots with rapid fire creationist talking points with which to disrupt public high school science classes so genuine science doesn't get to be taught there:

[Link: ncseweb.org...]
[Link: timpanogos.wordpress.com...]
[Link: www.teachthemscience.org...]

942 nomra  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:18:52am

re: #324 Wild Knight
Hi all,
Long time reader -1st time poster...
Anyway, I agree with Zombie, Wild Knight's insightful observation deserves more upticks but the buttons don't seem to work for me.

943 nomra  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:27:20am

OK I see now that I needed to post at least once, then all the buttons were enabled.
I've read your blog for years Charles, but I've gotta say that's it's a big difference with all the enhancements when you're logged in. Really nice work.

944 charles_martel  Mon, May 4, 2009 8:27:20am

For all those out there who may want to support ID, there is a difference between ID and "theistic evolution." ID is simply warmed over Young Earth Creationism, which I reject as a Christian. I am an orthodox Christian who does believe that God designed and created this universe. But I also understand the validity of evolution. I believe that God made this universe using evolution. He can use any tools He wants to! But ID is another story. It rejects science and rationality, and that is wrong. God gave us minds and He wants us to use them. To deny mountains of evidence and rational thought is just plain wrong and ignorant. There are plenty of intelligent and thinking Christians out there, and the Creationists are so insecure in their faith that they feel the need to attack science simply to justify their faith.

945 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 8:46:32am

re: #923 Bob Levin

My goodness, she writes for years giving people valuable information, she is reasonable, logical, she tells the truth, and the first thing that even sounds like a sour note and folks are eager to toss her under a bus. Who exactly are the ones being literal and closed minded? I'm not familiar with this 'one strike and you're out' game.

The good stuff doesn't give the bad stuff a pass. And there's more than one strike; she's an anti-vaxxer, too.

946 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:02:20pm

#936 Salamantis--This is what I'm talking about. You either want to have a discussion or you want to throw pies. Melanie Phillips, I believe, would be one to have a discussion. You toss out the label Postmodern Deconstruction as if that speaks for itself. Are you saying that Kuhn is a bad guy simply because he is a Postmodern Deconstructionist, or that Burke's presentation of western history is flawed because he is a Postmodern Deconstructionist? The whole point is that there is room for discussion about a number of topics. There is room for argument, and if there's an argument, someone's will lose that argument, and that's okay. But using 'Postmodern Deconstructionism' like it's some kind of magic trump card that allows you to simply dismiss legitimate mainstream arguments--that isn't arguing. I don't think it's an accident that today's news posts on LGF deal with Cynthia McKinney, whose intellectual approach to life is--uh, somewhat different than Melanie Phillips'. My point that that Cynthia will not engage in discussion, I believe Melanie will. One gentleman brings up Wegener, you respond by talking about evolution. Did I miss something. When did the notion of moving tectonic plates become joined at the hip with evolution? I never brought up evolution. In fact, I never mentioned ID either. I entered this discussion because I felt folks were treating Melanie Phillips unfairly. I also notice that anyone you perceive to disagree with you is getting dinged down. Is that a coincidence, or is that G-d personally getting involved in karma of the discussion?

947 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:13:22pm

#936 Salamantis
One other thing, just for my own consistency, if you remove the labels on Kuhn and Burke, could you give a brief empirical argument on exactly what is wrong with their work? I did google the Sokol affair, I think it supports my view that academic and scientific journals, disciplines, scientists themselves, aren't scientific enough.

948 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:45:39pm

re: #947 Bob Levin

#936 Salamantis
One other thing, just for my own consistency, if you remove the labels on Kuhn and Burke, could you give a brief empirical argument on exactly what is wrong with their work? I did google the Sokol affair, I think it supports my view that academic and scientific journals, disciplines, scientists themselves, aren't scientific enough.

What is wrong with their work is the whole idea that the paradigm shifts in empirical science do not follow empirical data, but social trends (this bizarre idea originated with the French philosopher Michel Foucault). It's an attempt to rhetorically detach hard sciences, like physics, chemisty and biology, from evidence-dependence and reduce them to just another specialist Wittgensteinian narrative, so that the more humanistic sciences, such as sociology and cultural anthropology, can claim ontological parity.

It also rhetorically detaches scientific change from progress. This notion is, of course, nonsensical and absurd. Contemporary science stands upon the shoulders of past scientific achievements; this is how it is able to advance beyond them.

The point being made about the journal was that it was a 'soft' science journal, more literary than anything else, and a 'hard' scientist, by throwing together an intentionally ridiculous and asinine article that was nevertheless accepted by it, effectively lampooned its postmodern pretentions to academic probity in its own pages.

Such a pottage of snarled twaddle wouldn't have stood a tinker's chance of being published in a hard science journal.

949 freetoken  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:52:25pm

re: #946 Bob Levin

My point that that Cynthia will not engage in discussion, I believe Melanie will.

Don't know about Cynthia, but given Ms. Phillips writings over several years, during which indeed she has been confronted on numerous occasions about her positioning evolution and atheism as causes of moral decay and yet ignored valid criticisms of her stances, I'd say your trying to cover up for Ms. Phillips.

950 FoundingFather  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:54:19pm

As for her claim that “intelligent design” is not based on religion, this is incredibly easy to refute. All we have to do is read the very words of the people who promote ID, starting with the man considered the father of the movement, Phillip E. Johnson:

This [the intelligent design movement] isn’t really, and never has been, a debate about science, it’s about religion and philosophy.

OK, then in that case Darwinism is all about atheism:

Richard Lewontin's January 9, 1997 article, Billions and Billions of
Demons , which is a review of
Carl Sagan’s book, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the
Dark contains the oft-quoted line about not allowing “a Divine Foot in
the door.” The entire paragraph in which this line appears is worth
quoting. It seems to me to be the best statement of the philosophical
foundation for the Darwinian fundamentalist perspective:

Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common
sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between
science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite
of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its
failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and
life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for
unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment,
a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and
institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material
explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we
are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create
an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce
material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter
how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is
absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent
Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in
God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is
to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be
ruptured, that miracles may happen.

951 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:57:18pm

re: #946 Bob Levin

#936 Salamantis--This is what I'm talking about. You either want to have a discussion or you want to throw pies. Melanie Phillips, I believe, would be one to have a discussion. You toss out the label Postmodern Deconstruction as if that speaks for itself. Are you saying that Kuhn is a bad guy simply because he is a Postmodern Deconstructionist, or that Burke's presentation of western history is flawed because he is a Postmodern Deconstructionist? The whole point is that there is room for discussion about a number of topics. There is room for argument, and if there's an argument, someone's will lose that argument, and that's okay. But using 'Postmodern Deconstructionism' like it's some kind of magic trump card that allows you to simply dismiss legitimate mainstream arguments--that isn't arguing. I don't think it's an accident that today's news posts on LGF deal with Cynthia McKinney, whose intellectual approach to life is--uh, somewhat different than Melanie Phillips'. My point that that Cynthia will not engage in discussion, I believe Melanie will. One gentleman brings up Wegener, you respond by talking about evolution. Did I miss something. When did the notion of moving tectonic plates become joined at the hip with evolution? I never brought up evolution. In fact, I never mentioned ID either. I entered this discussion because I felt folks were treating Melanie Phillips unfairly. I also notice that anyone you perceive to disagree with you is getting dinged down. Is that a coincidence, or is that G-d personally getting involved in karma of the discussion?

Postmodernism and deconstruction, as begun by Foucault and Derrida, have mainly been ways for obfucationist and linguistically opaque academics to get paid for indulging in extended ad hominems. They try to read between the lines of a text by appealing to the author's life and culture, so they can twist the text into saying what THEY want it to say, instead of what the author intended.

If you think Melanie will honestly engage in an objective and unbiased discussion the logically entailed conclusion of which will be unfavorable to her religious beliefs, she now has the chance to prove it.

Plate tectonics, btw, falsifies Genesis Literalist Young Earth Creationism, not only because it involves hundreds of millions of years, not thousands, but also because it can be invoked to explain why some species are found cross-continentally, and others are not, and why some are more evolutionarily diverged than others; it depends upon what continents were and were not adjacent when the species evolved, and how long populations have been geographically isolated.

When a post is in my opinion insightful and correct, I upding it; when it is in my opinion egregiously wrong, I downding it. That's just how I roll.

952 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:01:05pm

re: #950 FoundingFather

You have completely mischaracterized that quote, either deliberately or because you don't understand what it's saying.

It says that the scientific method cannot allow a "divine foot in the door" -- because as soon as you utter the words, "God must have done this," you have closed the door to further scientific inquiry.

It says nothing about either religion or atheism.

And, of course, it's copied and pasted from a creationist website:

[Link: darwinianfundamentalism.blogspot.com...]

953 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:15:45pm

re: #950 FoundingFather

Lewontin was less of a Darwinist than he was a Marxist:

Science and Ideology
by Edward O. Wilson
[Link: lrainc.com...]

RTWT

And also this:

Richard Lewontin on Carl Sagan
[Link: www.uncrediblehallq.net...]

And of course Marxists are doctrinaire atheists.

Strangely enough, tens of millions starved in Stalinist Russia because they rejected Darwinism in favor of a neoLamarckian Lysenkoism that they thought meshed better with Communist ideology. When they tried to apply Lysenko's commissar-approved theories to Soviet agriculture, their crops failed drastically.

954 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:37:16pm

#948 Salamantis,

Again, you're generalizing to the point of losing the sight of the specific. What is wrong with Kuhn, what is wrong with Burke? Who said anything about Foucault? All they are saying is that there is veneer of objectivity to the sciences, that historically aren't as objective as those sciences would like us to think. From there you conclude that they are denigrating all scientific work? Seriously? I conclude that they are calling for more careful reasoning based on empirical knowledge, and the fearlessness to pursue such knowledge regardless of the peer pressure of their colleagues. Do you recognize the existence of this peer pressure? Especially when the science are so grant driven? Do you think the current thinking about Global Warming is some kind of anomaly in the history of science? Kuhn, Burke, and okay--Foucault--say that it is not. Now we have an interesting phenomena, you and I, we are referring to the exact same texts and drawing the opposite conclusions. And yet, we both seem to want reasoned discussion based on facts. I suspect you and could even disagree on the meaning of certain experimental data. But you know what, that's science. There is debate in science. The idea is to use proper tools of analysis, and yes, linguistic analysis, to keep the debate from degenerating into name calling--or ad hominem attacks. And when did I even mention the Bible, and young earth theory? Who are you arguing with? Sometimes me, sometimes not me. If you could please, argue with me. Don't be afraid to ask a question: Bob, how do you feel about Young Earth Creationism? You know, like that. Argue with the data in front of you. But, hey, that's the way I roll.

#949 Freetoken,

I don't know Ms. Phillips. But what I have read of her has been helpful and informative. So, I suppose I'm not forgetting that I'm grateful. I can be grateful to someone and disagree with them on some things.

#951 Salamantis

I guess she does have the chance to prove it. But going back to my original post, the topic of religion is actually very complicated. When I start reading religious discussions that approach the sophistication of baseball discussions in Cinncinnati and St. Louis, then I'll raise my expectations for Ms. Phillips on the topic of religion. I have every confidence that if the general level of religious discourse rises, so will hers.

955 FoundingFather  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:02:06pm

Re: #952

Typical guilt by association tactics, Charles. Of course it would be posted on a Creationist website (although that's not where I got it since I don't buy into a young earth or a literal 6 days of creation) since it provides insight into the true nature of fanatic Darwinists. The fact is Lewontin, like Dawkins, are radical atheists. Ken Miller may not be, but he is relentlessly intellectually dishonest, as are all those who insist on lumping all skeptics of evolution with creationists. What's more troubling is their fascist attempts to silence and even destroy the careers of anyone who dares disagree with their dogma, and worse, perverting the First Amendment to do so.

956 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:05:52pm

re: #954 Bob Levin

#948 Salamantis,

Again, you're generalizing to the point of losing the sight of the specific. What is wrong with Kuhn, what is wrong with Burke? Who said anything about Foucault? All they are saying is that there is veneer of objectivity to the sciences, that historically aren't as objective as those sciences would like us to think. From there you conclude that they are denigrating all scientific work? Seriously? I conclude that they are calling for more careful reasoning based on empirical knowledge, and the fearlessness to pursue such knowledge regardless of the peer pressure of their colleagues. Do you recognize the existence of this peer pressure? Especially when the science are so grant driven? Do you think the current thinking about Global Warming is some kind of anomaly in the history of science? Kuhn, Burke, and okay--Foucault--say that it is not. Now we have an interesting phenomena, you and I, we are referring to the exact same texts and drawing the opposite conclusions. And yet, we both seem to want reasoned discussion based on facts. I suspect you and could even disagree on the meaning of certain experimental data. But you know what, that's science. There is debate in science. The idea is to use proper tools of analysis, and yes, linguistic analysis, to keep the debate from degenerating into name calling--or ad hominem attacks. And when did I even mention the Bible, and young earth theory? Who are you arguing with? Sometimes me, sometimes not me. If you could please, argue with me. Don't be afraid to ask a question: Bob, how do you feel about Young Earth Creationism? You know, like that. Argue with the data in front of you. But, hey, that's the way I roll.

The point is that, due to peer review and the demand for experimental results to be replicable under controlled conditions, even though individual scientists may be biased, empirical science as an enterprise is self-correcting, and winnows out individual biases, thus asymptotically approaching objectivity. As far as grants go, many scientists make respectable careers out of falsifying other scientists' hypotheses. And indeed falsifying the falsifiable, by eliminating spurious alternatives, advances empirical knowledge. In that sense, every scientist is a shark to every other; ever ready to take a bite out of each other's conjectures.

Truth and utility are co-primordial in empirical science; truth is what works, and what works is true.

The differences between evolutionary theory, AGW, and creationism/ID are that evolutionary theory is good science, massively verified over 150 years, while AGW is not so good science, being contradicted after only a couple of decades by studies that attribute global warming to solar cycles, but science nonetheless (since it is in principle falsifiable). Creationism/ID, otoh, is not empirical science at all, but religious dogma. There is not one single iota or whit of empirical evidence that supports it, and it is in principle impossible to falsify extra-empirical contentions by empirical means.

But when acolytes of religious dogma fail to elevate it to empirical science status, they invariably endeavor to reduce empirical science to the status of religious dogma. Either attempt, however, is doomed to failure, because the bright line distinctions of the presence of supporting empirical evidence versus its utter absence, and falsifiability versus unfalsifiability, remain.

#951 Salamantis

I guess she does have the chance to prove it. But going back to my original post, the topic of religion is actually very complicated. When I start reading religious discussions that approach the sophistication of baseball discussions in Cinncinnati and St. Louis, then I'll raise my expectations for Ms. Phillips on the topic of religion. I have every confidence that if the general level of religious discourse rises, so will hers.

That remains to be seen.

957 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:13:48pm

re: #955 FoundingFather

Re: #952

Typical guilt by association tactics, Charles. Of course it would be posted on a Creationist website (although that's not where I got it since I don't buy into a young earth or a literal 6 days of creation) since it provides insight into the true nature of fanatic Darwinists. The fact is Lewontin, like Dawkins, are radical atheists. Ken Miller may not be, but he is relentlessly intellectually dishonest, as are all those who insist on lumping all skeptics of evolution with creationists. What's more troubling is their fascist attempts to silence and even destroy the careers of anyone who dares disagree with their dogma, and worse, perverting the First Amendment to do so.

Name some examples of these "fascist attempts to silence and destroy the careers of anyone," etc.

Can you name even one example?

958 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:14:02pm

re: #955 FoundingFather

Re: #952

Typical guilt by association tactics, Charles. Of course it would be posted on a Creationist website (although that's not where I got it since I don't buy into a young earth or a literal 6 days of creation) since it provides insight into the true nature of fanatic Darwinists. The fact is Lewontin, like Dawkins, are radical atheists. Ken Miller may not be, but he is relentlessly intellectually dishonest, as are all those who insist on lumping all skeptics of evolution with creationists. What's more troubling is their fascist attempts to silence and even destroy the careers of anyone who dares disagree with their dogma, and worse, perverting the First Amendment to do so.

The relentless intellectual dishonesty has been evinced by the creationists; systematically, ubiquitously, and routinely. Their entire program to insinuate their pet religious dogmas into public high school science classes has been a history of employing one camoflaging PR propaganda euphemism after another; 'intelligent design', 'teach the controversy', 'academic freedom',...they'll try any means, however mendacious it may be, if they think it has a chance of achieving their ends:

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

959 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:16:12pm

re: #955 FoundingFather

Of course it would be posted on a Creationist website (although that's not where I got it since I don't buy into a young earth or a literal 6 days of creation)...

Oh, really? You didn't get it from that website?

Then why is it word-for-word, verbatim, what is written on that website?

[Link: darwinianfundamentalism.blogspot.com...]

960 Aye Pod  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:31:35pm

re: #950 FoundingFather


We take the side of science in spite
of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its
failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and
life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for
unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment,
a commitment to materialism.

What planet is this guy posting from? Can't be Earth because here we have seen an extraordinary explosion in both the length and quality of life in the last couple of hundred years, and it's all down to science.

961 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:31:58pm

re: #959 Charles

Then why is it word-for-word, verbatim, what is written on that website?

heh
Sure got awful quiet in here.

962 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:33:58pm

re: #955 FoundingFather

A radical atheist? How does their atheism invalidate the point that Creationism/ID is simply not scientific?

The reason that Miller et al. lump "evolution skeptics" into the creationist camp is because they have invariably been creationists of some kind. I would like for you to find a challenge- some alternative explanation- to evolution that is NOT some variation on creationism. Seriously- I would very much be impressed by this.

963 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:37:53pm

re: #962 Altermite

A radical atheist? How does their atheism invalidate the point that Creationism/ID is simply not scientific?

Note that he complained about "guilt by association" tactics.
Appears to be something he's accustomed to using.

964 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:56:55pm

#956 Salamantis

Now see, we're actually agreeing after all that. Yes, truth is good. Truth is not apparent, there are rules and methods for finding the truth. Those rules and methods are a good thing, and have developed along with science. There are even more rules to winnow out falsehood which science has not incorporated, still employing hard, critical, analysis.

I still haven't mentioned anything at all about evolution, or ID. I'll just say this, even though you haven't asked me--if you have to teach or in any way coerce someone to believe in Gd, then you are completely missing the point of religion. That's how far off the mark I find all religious discussion to be, not to mention many religions. So regarding Ms. Phillips and the overall tide of religious discussion--um, might take a while.

965 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:14:16pm

re: #964 Bob Levin

Can I ask a question or two, Bob? How do you feel about teaching ID in schools? How do you feel about teaching evolution?

What is your opinion of ID?

966 jcm  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:20:10pm

re: #965 Altermite

What is your opinion of ID?

ID should be required to by booze.
No exceptions.

/ sorry couldn't help myself.

967 Sharmuta  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:09:29pm

Why do I get the feeling the LGF will soon have an increase in historical revisionism?

968 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:15:04pm

re: #967 Sharmuta

Why do I get the feeling the LGF will soon have an increase in historical revisionism?

It's a postmodernist deconstructionist thang...;~)

969 Sharmuta  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:15:49pm

re: #968 Salamantis

"Christian nation" meme, coming soon to an LGF thread near you.

970 FoundingFather  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:40:26pm

re: #959 Charles

Yes, that is the website I got it from. But now you need to provide evidence for why you call this a "creationist website" (along the lines, say, of the anti-science answersincreation.org). I found no support by the author for a belief in a young earth or a 6 day literal creation, although I admit I haven't spent much time on that site. I chose it because it had the most complete Lewontin quote.

If you provide such evidence, I will freely admit my error (although not the point of the quote, which stands irrespective of the source). If not, well then we can just have to lump you in with those who are unwilling to discuss this issue honestly.

As for my "getting quiet," unlike some, apparently, I have a life beyond this forum. (And now I will be getting quiet for the rest of the evening.)

971 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:00:45pm

#964 Altermite

Um, complex questions. I'll assume you are talking about a kind of science curriculum, not the origins of the universe. I think our schools need to become more rigorous in the teaching of traditional math, English, and the sciences. I feel that science education is too watered down, that scientific thinking is not drummed into kids heads like an Art Blakey press roll. It's odd, because if you really ramp up a traditional science education, there comes a point where kids will just have this epiphany regarding the complexity and vastness of things. But no one has to actually say these words. In fact, if you actually say the words, you ruin the effect. Bottom line, straight, strict science. (Similar epiphany regarding the change from 'girls have cooties' to 'girls don't have cooties!' )

Evolution. This is actually baffling, because I can't understand why anyone hasn't put forth the notion of quantum leaps in discussing change. So there seems to be this wall between the physics departments and the biology departments that I can't explain. And of course, evolution rests on the notion that we know how DNA works, and we don't. It's a work in progress, and I'm getting older, so I'm quite anxious for folks to figure out how DNA works. I want lots and lots of people who know their way around a laboratory trying to answer this question.

But there are bits of every theory, even gravity, that don't quite fit together. That's just science. Those anomalies drive new discoveries. Part of scientific education is learning to think like a scientist, rather than memorizing items as established fact. I know of someone in the physics department at Princeton who has taken on the job of cleaning up the bits of the Big Bang Theory that don't quite fit. So, you get the Inflation Theory, and the idea of an Ekpyrotic Universe, and he's going to keep it up, incorporating new findings into old theories, or creating new theories.

I don't feel that evolution is a threat to religion, so really, it's pretty much of a non-issue for me. If folks think it's a part of a good basic biology education, fine, no big deal. Of course, since I'm Jewish, it doesn't conflict with our understanding of the Torah, and even if it did, I'd actually enjoy that, because I would have to learn both more science and more Torah.

That said, I understand the fight. You can't have a society where you are choosing not to make your children smart, where you shut off their drive to discover and ask questions. That's dangerous. And yet, I also see a society that is having increasing difficulty distinguishing between right and wrong. So both sides are very driven. It's odd, because it seems like the solution to both camps is more scientific knowledge and scientific thinking. Logic and the search for truth will help people to distinguish between right and wrong.

Thanks for asking, but I don't hear the Discovery Institute throwing down their swords. And if they would because of what I just wrote, then this really is a great website.

972 Mike LaSalle  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:06:05pm

Tulane professor of mathematical physics Frank J. Tipler developed an incontrovertible mathematical proof for the existence of God over 10 years ago in the Omega Point Theory.

Oxford professor David Deutsch -- winner of the Paul Dirac award -- is perhaps the world's foremost authority on quantum mechanics. In his book, The Fabric of Reality, Deutsch devoted much of chapter 14 to an analysis of Tipler's Omega Point Theory (OPT).

Bottom line: Tipler's math has been PEER REVIEWED and found flawless. Even Hawking has acknowledged this.

I think it's normal for eople who have already made an intellectual commitment to atheism to be threatened by the idea that God could be established through hard logic and mathematics. But sometimes you have to face the facts, no matter how unappealing they might appear to you.

Heck, Chris Langan -- the "smartest man in Ameica" with a IQ of 210 -- included an Intelligent Creator in his Theory of Everything (just google it).

But science bureaucrats and bloggers left and right happily stuff their fingers into their ears and shout incessantly, "Intelligent Design is CREATIONISM! Intelligent Design is CREATIONISM!" over and over again, like bratty little kids, until the threat goes away.

When did America get so old and stupid?

Mike LaSalle
Publisher, MensNewsDaily.com
[Link: mensnewsdaily.com...]

973 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:07:04pm

re: #970 FoundingFather

Yes, that is the website I got it from. But now you need to provide evidence for why you call this a "creationist website" (along the lines, say, of the anti-science answersincreation.org). I found no support by the author for a belief in a young earth or a 6 day literal creation, although I admit I haven't spent much time on that site. I chose it because it had the most complete Lewontin quote.

If you provide such evidence, I will freely admit my error (although not the point of the quote, which stands irrespective of the source). If not, well then we can just have to lump you in with those who are unwilling to discuss this issue honestly.

As for my "getting quiet," unlike some, apparently, I have a life beyond this forum. (And now I will be getting quiet for the rest of the evening.)

Just check who they link to:

[Link: darwinianfundamentalism.blogspot.com...]

Two Disco Institute links, a William Dembski link, and links to several ID sites. ID is, of course, the camoflage PR propaganda term that the Disco Institute coined for creationism in order to circumvent the Aguilar decision forbidding creationism from being taught in public schools. But the Dover decision removed the mask from that euphemistic subterfuge.

And here are links to articles by David Berlinsky and Philip Johnson:

[Link: darwinianfundamentalism.blogspot.com...]

These folks are not Genesis Literalists, but they are creationists. The do not accept a few-thousand-year-old world, but they do believe that all the millions of terrestrial species, both existent and extinct, were created independently and as is.

They thus reject evolution. But the fact of evolutionary divergence from ancient common ancestors is conclusively demonstrated by artifactual retroviral sequence evidence:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

974 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:20:43pm

re: #972 Mike LaSalle

Tulane professor of mathematical physics Frank J. Tipler developed an incontrovertible mathematical proof for the existence of God over 10 years ago in the Omega Point Theory.

Oxford professor David Deutsch -- winner of the Paul Dirac award -- is perhaps the world's foremost authority on quantum mechanics. In his book, The Fabric of Reality, Deutsch devoted much of chapter 14 to an analysis of Tipler's Omega Point Theory (OPT).

Bottom line: Tipler's math has been PEER REVIEWED and found flawless. Even Hawking has acknowledged this.

I think it's normal for eople who have already made an intellectual commitment to atheism to be threatened by the idea that God could be established through hard logic and mathematics. But sometimes you have to face the facts, no matter how unappealing they might appear to you.

Heck, Chris Langan -- the "smartest man in Ameica" with a IQ of 210 -- included an Intelligent Creator in his Theory of Everything (just google it).

But science bureaucrats and bloggers left and right happily stuff their fingers into their ears and shout incessantly, "Intelligent Design is CREATIONISM! Intelligent Design is CREATIONISM!" over and over again, like bratty little kids, until the threat goes away.

When did America get so old and stupid?

Mike LaSalle
Publisher, MensNewsDaily.com
[Link: mensnewsdaily.com...]

According to Tipler's theory, his God would not become existent until the Big Crunch, and it would be comprised of a vast amalgam of uploaded posthuman intelligences. There is much evidence that there will be no such thing as a Big Crunch in our future, and that instead, the universe will continue to endlessly expand and eventually suffer a dispersion-caused heat death. But even if a Big Crunch does occur, it will not happen for another 26 billion years at the earliest.

975 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:20:58pm

re: #970 FoundingFather

Yes, that is the website I got it from.

So why did you lie, and deny it?

976 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:23:05pm

re: #972 Mike LaSalle

Wow. Awesome. You convinced me, dude.

Not.

977 Aye Pod  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:32:50pm

re: #970 FoundingFather

It spouts the same ID/creationist talking points as all the other cdesignpropentsists out there.

978 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:34:20pm

Also, the leading candidate for the Grand Unified Theory Of Everything has been proposed by Garrett Lisi. It is due to be tested in the Large Hadron Collider, by means of a search for the elusive Higgs Boson. It does not involve a deity. But it DOES involve E8, the most complex mathematical structure known.

[Link: arxiv.org...]

It unifies Einsteinian Relativity and Quantum Mechanics with surprisingly little new mathemtical scaffolding. It theorizes 248 elementary particles, corresponding to the 248 vertices of E8. 220 of these particles are known to physics, and their characteristics and relationships map seamlessly onto the E8 template.

979 Aye Pod  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:35:25pm

re: #972 Mike LaSalle

Tulane professor of mathematical physics Frank J. Tipler developed an incontrovertible mathematical proof for the existence of God over 10 years ago in the Omega Point Theory.

Oxford professor David Deutsch -- winner of the Paul Dirac award -- is perhaps the world's foremost authority on quantum mechanics. In his book, The Fabric of Reality, Deutsch devoted much of chapter 14 to an analysis of Tipler's Omega Point Theory (OPT).

Bottom line: Tipler's math has been PEER REVIEWED and found flawless. Even Hawking has acknowledged this.

From [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

This emergentist posture allows Deutsch to do some serious work with the Church-Turing thesis, (or "Turing principle", as he calls it), which is fundamental in theoretical computer science. In the strong form he favors it implies that a universal quantum computer, capable of rendering any physically possible environment, actually exists near the end of spacetime in every universe and is maintained by sentient beings with the knowledge required to increase its memory, computing cycles, and energy supply. In this he follows Frank Tipler in The Physics of Immortality, though he emphasizes the scientific component of Tipler's Omega Point hypothesis, the component that is justified by Popperian epistemology as implied by our best science. He is much less sympathetic to the non-scientific component, which provides rational reconstructions for traditional theological categories such as God, omniscience, omnipresence, benevolence, creation, and so on.

980 Aye Pod  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:43:11pm

This diagram from Mike La Salle's article is hilarious. Straight out of 'The Time Cube': Image: opt-tipler.gif

981 Mike LaSalle  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:52:45pm
But even if a Big Crunch does occur, it will not happen for another 26 billion years at the earliest.

So what? The Causal Order Postulate was disproved by Bell's experiments long ago -- therefore it makes no difference that God will emerge at a particular time in the history of the universe.

And Jimmah - you like the heat death. Whoopty-do. I like the heat death, too. But in a MULTIVERSE, some universes go to heat death, and others to collapse. Either way, it only need to happen ONCE for God to create Himself and thus create the whole friggin system retroactively. (And don't tell me you don't like the multiverse either? Wheeler, Feynman, Hawking, Deutsch, and Leonard Susskind all think the multiverse is true -- the heck with Karl Popper. I think I will stand over there with those guys instead of you.)

Charles - the Holy Grail is a wave, dude. You can read my twitters if you want a poetic overview: [Link: twitter.com...]

982 Mike LaSalle  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:56:48pm

Jimmah - when the universe collapses, it becomes a 3-sphere. Why don't you read David Deutsch's book and ask him if the universe could be 'trinitarian'? You can read chapter 14 of The Fabric of Reality right here: [Link: math.tulane.edu...] Better yet, buy the book and read it. You could do worse than read a book by David Deutsch -- he's absolutely a brilliant fellow.

983 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:09:46pm

re: #981 Mike LaSalle

So what? The Causal Order Postulate was disproved by Bell's experiments long ago -- therefore it makes no difference that God will emerge at a particular time in the history of the universe.

Not quite. Bell's Theorem is satisfied by superluminal connections - the very kind of instantaneous quantum field entanglement that was observed in the Alain Aspect experiment.

And Jimmah - you like the heat death. Whoopty-do. I like the heat death, too. But in a MULTIVERSE, some universes go to heat death, and others to collapse. Either way, it only need to happen ONCE for God to create Himself and thus create the whole friggin system retroactively. (And don't tell me you don't like the multiverse either? Wheeler, Feynman, Hawking, Deutsch, and Leonard Susskind all think the multiverse is true -- the heck with Karl Popper. I think I will stand over there with those guys instead of you.)

Garrett Lisi's GUTOE requires neither multiverses nor string theory, and requires only the four Einsteinian spatiotemporal dimensions, not 11 or 12.

Charles - the Holy Grail is a wave, dude. You can read my twitters if you want a poetic overview: [Link: twitter.com...]

Mixing your lysergic acid diethylamide, your psilocybin and your mescaline can cause ideations like that...;~) Here's a hint: You don't have to practice for Burning Man...hehe...

984 Winslow  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:11:53pm

re: #972 Mike LaSalle

I think it's normal for eople who have already made an intellectual commitment to atheism to be threatened by the idea that God could be established through hard logic and mathematics. But sometimes you have to face the facts, no matter how unappealing they might appear to you.

Heck, Chris Langan -- the "smartest man in Ameica" with a IQ of 210 -- included an Intelligent Creator in his Theory of Everything (just google it).

Hey Mike - Do you happen to know if Chris Langan is "available?" I'd like to introduce him to Ms. CharlyeSarte.

985 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:13:17pm

re: #981 Mike LaSalle

Charles - the Holy Grail is a wave, dude.

Dude!

986 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:15:31pm

re: #982 Mike LaSalle

Jimmah - when the universe collapses, it becomes a 3-sphere. Why don't you read David Deutsch's book and ask him if the universe could be 'trinitarian'? You can read chapter 14 of The Fabric of Reality right here: [Link: math.tulane.edu...] Better yet, buy the book and read it. You could do worse than read a book by David Deutsch -- he's absolutely a brilliant fellow.

He's also absolutely an atheist and a fan of Richard Dawkins' memetics:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

987 Mike LaSalle  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:19:03pm

Of course everyone here understands the symbolism of the Israeli flag, yes? The Star of David: two triangle, entwined. One triangle points to "heaven" and the other to "earth".

The Greeks did the same thing: Ouranos was the Sky god, and Gaia was the Earth god.

You can learn a lot about life from those crazy Greeks. Ouranos and Gaia had a number of children. Their last offspring was Kronos.

Kronos is TIME: the harvest god. You plant in the spring and harvest in the fall. It's a cycle. Heaven + Earth = Time.

Take another look at Tipler's triad universe. The Big Bang is the start, the Big Crunch is the end. The only thing that stands between them is TIME.

That's the Holy Grail: the hour glass.

Google the Louvre. You know the famous entrance of the Louvre, yes? The two pyramids: one, inverted and suspended from above. The other, much smaller, appears as an ordinary pyramid below. The two pyramids almost touch at the apex.

Check out your dollar bill: The pyramid, and the Eye of Providence.

The Eye of Providence is TIME -- the pyramids are the respective causal waves of Heaven and Earth. Each are real in their own space, and each projects Causality toward the other.

Here, go nuts: [Link: bicameraluniverse.com...]

If you KNOW anything, then you can tell me I'm wrong or crazy or stupid or whatever. But if you are just another smug yuppie with a pre-programmed opinion about things of which you know jack, than STFU.

Charles - thanks for letting me post.

Cheers

Mike

988 Aye Pod  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:21:46pm

re: #981 Mike LaSalle

And Jimmah - you like the heat death.

Really? That's news to me. Care to tell me what extra dimension you got that from?

(And don't tell me you don't like the multiverse either? Wheeler, Feynman, Hawking, Deutsch, and Leonard Susskind all think the multiverse is true -- the heck with Karl Popper. I think I will stand over there with those guys instead of you.)

I'm actually quite interested by what Feynman, Deutsche etc say about the multiverse theory, not so sure they'd want to be stood next to you though.

Either way, it only need to happen ONCE for God to create Himself and thus create the whole friggin system retroactively.

Are you talking about a faux 'god' that arises through purely naturalistic means or are you actually talking about the supernatural here?

989 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:30:41pm

re: #987 Mike LaSalle

Of course everyone here understands the symbolism of the Israeli flag, yes? The Star of David: two triangle, entwined. One triangle points to "heaven" and the other to "earth".

The Greeks did the same thing: Ouranos was the Sky god, and Gaia was the Earth god.

You can learn a lot about life from those crazy Greeks. Ouranos and Gaia had a number of children. Their last offspring was Kronos.

Kronos is TIME: the harvest god. You plant in the spring and harvest in the fall. It's a cycle. Heaven + Earth = Time.

Take another look at Tipler's triad universe. The Big Bang is the start, the Big Crunch is the end. The only thing that stands between them is TIME.

That's the Holy Grail: the hour glass.

Google the Louvre. You know the famous entrance of the Louvre, yes? The two pyramids: one, inverted and suspended from above. The other, much smaller, appears as an ordinary pyramid below. The two pyramids almost touch at the apex.

Check out your dollar bill: The pyramid, and the Eye of Providence.

The Eye of Providence is TIME -- the pyramids are the respective causal waves of Heaven and Earth. Each are real in their own space, and each projects Causality toward the other.

Here, go nuts: [Link:

990 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:31:40pm

Dan Brown? Is that you? Or are you James Redfield?

991 Bob Levin  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:42:47pm

#978 Salamantis

I bookmarked your link, and I went to Wikipedia, bookmarked the synopsis of E8 Lie Group. Believe it or not, I've read quite a few things that were very similar to that, very similar, but not so overtly mathematical in nature. Thank you very much for this information. Very enlightening. I'm not kidding.

Let me ask you a question, do you feel that this kind of information can be taught in an accelerated high school program? Or, what is the earliest point in school, if you could design a curriculum from scratch, what would be the earliest point this could be taught?

992 Sharmuta  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:55:30pm

re: #990 Salamantis

Dan Brown? Is that you? Or are you James Redfield?

You took the words right outta my mouth off of my fingertips.

993 Aye Pod  Mon, May 4, 2009 7:57:50pm

re: #990 Salamantis

Dan Brown? Is that you? Or are you James Redfield?

How did we miss the significance of the pyramids? They were right under our noses all the time - Egypt, dollar bills, the Louvre. It all makes sense. Sheesh, we need to sharpen our scientific instincts here./

994 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 8:01:38pm

re: #971 Bob Levin

#964 Altermite


Evolution. This is actually baffling, because I can't understand why anyone hasn't put forth the notion of quantum leaps in discussing change. So there seems to be this wall between the physics departments and the biology departments that I can't explain. And of course, evolution rests on the notion that we know how DNA works, and we don't. It's a work in progress, and I'm getting older, so I'm quite anxious for folks to figure out how DNA works. I want lots and lots of people who know their way around a laboratory trying to answer this question.

I'd like to discuss this paragraph- we really do know very well the basics of how DNA works. I've just spent my last semester learning this. Yes, there are some things we don't fully understand, such as exactly which proteins interact with what part of the process, but those are literally falling into place as we speak. Failing that, we don't actually need to understand DNA to understand evolution. Genetic Analysis, as a field, existed for far longer than Molecular Genetics, and the amount of analysis you can do without understanding many of the mechanisms involved is really astounding. (I took a lab class in genetic analysis before I started learning more than the basics of molecular genetics.)

You can also learn about it, if you like. I'm not sure where to advise you to start, since I hardly know what it is you know, and most of the texts I'm familiar with are obscenely expensive.

995 Sharmuta  Mon, May 4, 2009 8:02:04pm

re: #972 Mike LaSalle

People with weak faith need to prove God exists. The rest of us are secure enough in ourselves and our faith that He does exist to not need to resort to such things.

996 Jim in Virginia  Mon, May 4, 2009 8:03:03pm

For some reason, I am reminded of Lyndon LaRouche.

997 Shug  Mon, May 4, 2009 8:07:38pm