Times Editorial: The Incredible Shrinking Elephant

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An editorial in London’s Times Online: The incredible shrinking elephant - Why moderate US Republicans must stand up for themselves.

The background to Mr Specter’s defection is a case in point. He is unquestionably an opportunist, abandoning the Republicans only when it became clear that staying with them would cost him his seat at next year’s mid-term elections. But before he jumped he was pushed hard by Pat Toomey, a conservative challenger from within the party, and by an increasingly powerful conservative faction known as the Club for Growth that Mr Toomey helped to found.

The battle between Messrs Specter and Toomey reflects a battle for the soul of the Republican Party that began long before Mr Obama stormed the White House. As a fiscal conservative, Mr Toomey’s insurgency was triggered by the expansion of state power and spending under President Bush, not his successor. His faction now helps to fund the campaigns of challengers to Republicans who it deems are insufficiently committed to the goals of lower taxes and smaller, more efficient government. But in the process it is undermining the campaign that Republicans should be fighting on similar themes but on a far larger scale - to rein in Mr Obama’s fondness for big government whenever the costs are unsustainable or the benefits moot.

America needs the Republicans, yet they are flirting with irrelevance. To return to relevance the party must be rebuilt as a coalition, not a clique. Its leaders must embrace its moderates, and its moderates - on everything from taxes to abortion - must stand up for themselves.

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648 comments
1 pat  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:54:29am

I suspect the funeral is premature.

2 Ojoe  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:55:17am

re: #1 pat

IMHO not premature.

3 Mithrax  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:55:53am

I don't know if a coalition is a good idea, it'll end up creating a bastard hybrid of a party that will just tear itself apart again.

What they need is a basic party framework:

1) this is what we stand for as a party

2) anything else beyond #1 is up for members to believe, but the party will not condone it.

3) only a convention can change the framework.

Coalitions last little longer than a fart in a hurricane, imho.

4 SlartyBartfast  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:56:43am

It's sad how we must rely on foreign news outlets for thoughtful analysis of our own political situation.

The state of the U.S. Media? MIA.

5 Kragar  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:56:46am

re: #2 Ojoe

IMHO not premature.

He'll be stone dead in a moment

6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:57:40am

I'm not dead yet!

I'm feelin' better!

I think I'll go for a walk.

7 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:57:57am

I'm guessing that by 'moderates' what is meant is fiscal conservatives who aren't that into social legislation?

If so, this makes a lot of sense.

Or am I wrong?

8 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:58:08am

First Win. Then sort out the details later.

9 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:58:10am

The rest of the world's fascination with our politics never ceases to amaze me.

10 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:58:59am

Good to see The Times is still reading LGF

11 pat  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:59:09am

re: #4 SlartyBartfast

That is true. And we must read UK papers to even find out what is really going on in Washington as well as thoughtful criticism of legislative and regulatory initiatives under the Obama administration.

12 theuglydougling  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:59:24am

We must stand for fiscal responsibility by supporting those moderates who are fiscally irresponsible.

13 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:59:26am

Specter is a spectacularly bad example of this issue. He wasn't run out the the party because of ideology. He left the party because the polls showed him losing the GOP primary. He's also a sick, old man of whose arrogance and high-handedness the party base had become thoroughly disgusted.

14 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 9:59:58am

re: #4 SlartyBartfast

It's sad how we must rely on foreign news outlets for thoughtful analysis of our own political situation.

The state of the U.S. Media? MIA.

No, The US media are very much present. The problem is that thay are a wholly owned subsidiary of the American Left.

15 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:00:02am

re: #9 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The rest of the world's fascination with our politics never ceases to amaze me.

What sounds good for lunch Veggie? I'm at home watching first take on ESPN2 and getting really hungry..Chinese?

16 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:00:23am

re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm not dead yet!

I'm feelin' better!

I think I'll go for a walk.

She's a witch! She turned me into a Newt! I...I got better.

17 Gang of One  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:00:42am

Is there a viable way to reconcile the religious right [creationists/young earthers] with the centrist right? Is abortion going to be a litmus test?

/Just asking

18 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:01:03am

Specter is not worth the ink it took to write that article.

19 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:01:06am

re: #13 quickjustice

Specter is a spectacularly bad example of this issue. He wasn't run out the the party because of ideology. He left the party because the polls showed him losing the GOP primary. He's also a sick, old man of whose arrogance and high-handedness the party base had become thoroughly disgusted.

Did you miss the first paragraph I quoted?

20 midwestgak  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:01:23am

re: #15 HoosierHoops

What sounds good for lunch Veggie? I'm at home watching first take on ESPN2 and getting really hungry..Chinese?

Grilled cheese samich and tomato soup.

21 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:01:44am

re: #1 pat

I suspect the funeral is premature.

Many pronoucements often are.

"The report of my death was an exaggeration."
-Mark Twain

22 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:02:03am

Letting the opposition party and outsiders determine the direction of the GOP makes as much sense as waiting for the Jihadis to tell us when we can fight them and where.

23 Land Shark  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:02:45am

Of course, The Times seems ignorant of the fact it was moving away from small government and fiscal restraint that started the GOP's slide. That's where "moderation" or moving away from the right cost them dearly.

24 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:03:06am

Just as Reagan came from the great state of California, so will the Democratic chastening come. There are a variety of propositions meant to cause California to continue its unsustainable spending. Those propositions will fail.

It will dawn on the Democrats that when a state like California becomes more fiscally conservative, maybe it should too. It only requires a couple of Democrats to reach that realization to block the insane social inititatives proposed by this administration.

25 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:03:08am
the world's most powerful democracy has no effective opposition, and it needs one.

The Times

The same is true of Britain, where the Conservatives have been absolutely irrelevant and missing in action as an effective opposition.

You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

26 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:04:16am

As a conservative, I have no problem with GOP "moderates" if that's what the electorate demands. During the last months of the Bush Administration, I watched the GOP entirely abandon free market principles. There were no principles except to bail out the Wall Street fat cats and others who profited from the bubble, and were headed toward ruin thanks to their own stupidity. Rescue the fat cats: yeah, that principle will rebuild the GOP!

Obama has adopted the Bush "policies", and multiplied their worst aspects. We have crony capitalism and green fascism, both rewarding failure.

27 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:04:49am

re: #24 Cato

Just as Reagan came from the great state of California, so will the Democratic chastening come. There are a variety of propositions meant to cause California to continue its unsustainable spending. Those propositions will fail.

It will dawn on the Democrats that when a state like California becomes more fiscally conservative, maybe it should too. It only requires a couple of Democrats to reach that realization to block the insane social inititatives proposed by this administration.

However, with Waxman, Feinstein, and Pelosi, I doubt such guidence will come out of California any time soon. I see hard times ahead for all unless some folks wake up to the realization that you can't spend your way out of problems.

28 lawhawk  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:04:51am

I'm sorry, but the Times seems to think that Specter is some form of a moderate. That is a misreading of Specter's political position over the years.

He has, first and foremost, always done what is best for Specter to be reelected.

He has shown himself to be anything but a fiscal moderate - instead going into fiscal irresponsibility with his support of the porkfest. Rather than seek out a reduced stimulus package that made sense fiscally, he went with the Democrat liberal tax and spenders.

On social issues, he's indeed been in the moderate wing of the GOP (a Rockefeller East Coast GOPer), but with his fiscal positions now hemming closer to the left fring of the Democrats, there was essentially no difference between him and Democrats.

So, when Toomey's challenge came from the right, instead of standing and fighting on the GOP line, he cut and ran to the left. How exactly is that standing up for the GOP? It isn't.

It is what Specter did to benefit his own political fortunes, not what was best for the GOP.

29 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:05:31am
30 yma o hyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:07:06am

Since its 30 years when Maggie came to power, there are lots of reminiscences. Here, hwoever, is a very good look not just back but to the future:
Margaret Thatcher: how the Tories have moved on from her leadership
From that link:
'In the years between the fall of Margaret Thatcher in 1990 and the rise of David Cameron 15 years later, the brilliant success of her government came to seem almost more of a curse than a blessing to successive leaders. Policy innovation became very difficult without reopening old factional splits, social renewal could look frivolous, drawing a line under unpopular old policies could look like betrayal. Margaret Thatcher’s own appearances, greeted with fully deserved adulation from Tory audiences, often made life difficult for the current incumbent.
David Cameron had the inestimable advantage of the passing of those long years. The old factions had become meaningless. old battles half buried, people who hate each other had begun to forget what it was they had been arguing about. It was possible to move on. The almost unsolvable puzzle — how to deal with the Thatcher legacy — became easier to resolve.'

The GOP stands at the same crossroads as the Tory Party did after the NuLab victory 12 years ago. The GOP cannot afford to spend 12 years in the wilderness, like the Tory Party, with infighting and election losses.
The GOP cannot afford to let the Old Beasts determine the course and let the young Republicans fall by the wayside.
Some ruthlessness is needed - indeed, without ruthlessness Maggie would not have been able to grasp the Tory leadership and win the elections against Labour, 30 years ago.
So - get cracking! Its down to you all - not to some old GOP hero!

31 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:07:09am

re: #26 quickjustice

I supported tose bailouts that had the government as a counterparty. I opposed those bailouts that had the government as an "investor". I think Republicans ought to try to make that distinction plain so that people understand the position that the government ought not meddle in the internal workings of private companies.

32 DaddyG  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:07:28am

You've Got To Fight For Your Right To (a) Party

You wake up late to rule - man you don’t wanna go
You ask d'electorate, “Please?” - but they still say, “No!”
You missed the primary - and general election
But the pundits preach the end like you’re some worn out faction

(chorus) You gotta fight for your right to a party

The one issue voters got the platform - and they said, “Our way!”
Those hypocrites - don't vote anyway
Man, living with principles is such a drag
Now they all want a litmus test for their pet rag (Bust it!)

(chorus) You gotta fight for your right to a party

Don’t step out of this tent if that’s the platform you hear
Our butts will get kicked again if we're not aware
Conservatism isn't just for "old white boys”
Now take back the agenda - Republican Boys!

33 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:07:38am

re: #29 buzzsawmonkey

And one must also remember that once upon a time, Specter fled the Democratic Party when it was politically expedient for him to do so. He is by no means alone in switching parties for political gain, just the most recent example (again).

34 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:08:19am

re: #30 yma o hyd

Well put

35 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:08:40am

re: #20 midwestgak

Grilled cheese samich and tomato soup.

Yummy..You what i invented in College..A can of green Pea's and a can of Campbell's tomato Soup mixed together...Good stuff..That and We never did get a license to fish out of the Napa River...I almost feel bad about eating fresh fish for breakfast..But alas I don't....

36 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:09:19am

re: #7 Altermite

I'm guessing that by 'moderates' what is meant is fiscal conservatives who aren't that into social legislation?

If so, this makes a lot of sense.

Or am I wrong?

Specter voted for the stimulus. He's not a liberal or conservative, he's an opportunist.

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:09:39am

re: #29 buzzsawmonkey

Hey Buzz. Lets just hope those clingin' folks are bitter.

38 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:10:03am
39 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:10:17am

re: #27 Honorary Yooper


I disagree. While those pols come from California, the propositions better represent the will of the majority.

Of course, those pols didn't listen to the gay marriage proposition, so I could be wrong.

40 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:10:19am

re: #19 Charles

Nope. But the paragraph blames Toomey, a young Turk, for Specter's demise. I think any challenger, regardless of ideology, would have pushed Specter. Toomey is more conservative than Specter. As I've posted elsewhere, the Pennsylvania GOP is moderate. It's also heavily Roman Catholic and pro-life, as are Pennsylvania Democrats. Pennsylvania elected Santorum, who was more socially conservative than Toomey.

Toomey has built a coalition based on economic conservatism (Club for Growth) and social conservatism. The question is: can Toomey capture a majority of Pennsylvania voters?

41 Russkilitlover  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:10:41am

re: #24 Cato


It will dawn on the Democrats that when a state like California becomes more fiscally conservative,

We're still a looooooong way from becoming even remotely closer to fiscally conservative. This $52 Billion tax increase has made a lot of people mad, but until we vote out or recall our legislatures, we'll still be offered up bond measures, taxes, fee increases, and spending increases that have no opposition - D or R.

42 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:10:43am

re: #23 Land Shark

Of course, The Times seems ignorant of the fact it was moving away from small government and fiscal restraint that started the GOP's slide. That's where "moderation" or moving away from the right cost them dearly.

People are looking for a quick and easy blame.

43 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:11:20am

re: #22 FurryOldGuyJeans

Letting the opposition party and outsiders determine the direction of the GOP makes as much sense as waiting for the Jihadis to tell us when we can fight them and where.

I'd agree with that, except that all of the movement from inside the GOP right now seems to be to push even further to the right, especially on social issues. All you have to do is take a look at the GOP state platforms in almost every state to find evidence of this.

44 Sabnen  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:11:25am

In 'Blue' New York, the Gov. Patterson (D) has an approval rating of 19%. An excellent opportunity for the 'dead' republicans. Senator Gillibrand (D) appointed by the hapless Gov. Patterson will be vulnerable to the 'dead' republicans in 2010. In 'Blue' Connecticut, Senator Chris Dodd (D) looks vulnerable to the 'dead' republicans in that state. In 'Blue' Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter (D) looks vulnerable to the 'dead' republicans in that state.

That is three Democratic Senators in three Democratic States that are looking weak right now. The 'dead' Republicans have a chance in three, very unlikely, states.

45 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:11:42am

re: #41 Russkilitlover


It starts in California.

46 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:11:46am

To be quite honest, Specter leaving the GOP doesn't bother me as much as he always did what was politically expedient for Specter. What bothers me is the rise of the Intelligent Designers and the apparent resurgence of the Ron Paul faction, the neo-John Birchers. We need folks can and will stand up to these nuts and put them back on the fringe where they belong. Is Specter one to do that? No, he is not, and never would be the type to do so.

47 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:12:01am

re: #7 Altermite

I'm guessing that by 'moderates' what is meant is fiscal conservatives who aren't that into social legislation?

If so, this makes a lot of sense.

Or am I wrong?

I read it the opposite way. They are saying that the fiscal cons in the Club for Growth are throwing out fiscal moderates, and that is what is harming the GOP.

I disagree...but I'm a fiscal conservative and social moderate, so I suppose I would.

48 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:12:06am
49 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:12:11am

Clinton and his Dem-controlled Congress pushed but a fraction of the "Trash America" policies the current administration is pursuing, and when the GOP expounding clear and concise fiscal restraint coupled with smaller government a major earthquake happened.

50 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:13:05am

re: #29 buzzsawmonkey

OK, here's the thing. Specter jumped ship because it was clear he would lose to Toomey in the primary.

Does that mean that Toomey was guaranteed to lose in the general election? That is by no means clear; Toomey could, in fact, win the general.

If that is so, whence these obituaries for the Republican Party? Specter fled to the Democrats because he felt that he would be welcomed there as the (incumbent) conquering hero, whom the Democrats would be willing--even eager--to unite behind to ensure continuity and an additional Senate seat.

But let's say that there prove to be enough Republicans, anti-Specter centrists, and Democrats who resent the opportunism of a quasi-Republican carpetbagger to put Toomey in the Senate, whether on the grounds of "I support his positions" or "at least he has principles and means what he says, and is not that tired old crock."

Will we start seeing a flurry of obituaries for the Democrats?

He also jumped because it was equally clear that he would win in the general with strong Dem support.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Excerpt:

His approval rating percentage among Republicans hovered in the 30s, according to a handful of polls conducted this year.

However, Specter's approval among Democrats in his state is high.

51 Gus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:13:35am
52 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:13:56am

re: #46 Honorary Yooper

To be quite honest, Specter leaving the GOP doesn't bother me as much as he always did what was politically expedient for Specter. What bothers me is the rise of the Intelligent Designers and the apparent resurgence of the Ron Paul faction, the neo-John Birchers. We need folks can and will stand up to these nuts and put them back on the fringe where they belong. Is Specter one to do that? No, he is not, and never would be the type to do so.

The emergence of the extremes on the right is a reaction to the election of the extremes on the left. There's always a blow back and when you push too hard in one direction, the result isn't necessarily a return to the middle.

53 DaddyG  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:14:15am

re: #23 Land Shark

When discussion "Moderate" vs. "Conservative" the split between social and economic is important. If the Republicans keep presenting alternative big government plans instead of less government plans then they are doomed to repeat their failure.

If instead they go back to the basics, individual choice, liberty, minimum government interference, solvency, sovereignty, etc. then they may have a much better chance at turning the tide.

54 Liberal Classic  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:14:17am
But before he jumped he was pushed hard by Pat Toomey, a conservative challenger from within the party, and by an increasingly powerful conservative faction known as the Club for Growth that Mr Toomey helped to found.

Another article that seems to portray the most vigorous faction of the Republican Party as being the fiscal wing, this time specifically mentioning the Club for Growth in its role of Specter's switch. While I don't disagree with the article where it describes the Republicans as being in "disarray", I just don't see the fiscal wing as being the cause for the party's "flirtation with irrelevancy." I have a hard time describing the previous administration and (modest) majority Republican congress as being "sufficiently committed to the goals of lower taxes and smaller, more efficient government." Are the social conservatives now moderates and the capitalists are now extremists?

55 rightside  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:14:20am

re: #31 Cato

Sound advice, but I think the problem is, all people want is hopey/changey. No substance, just promise me anything.

Let's face it, an unfortunate amount of the electorate has been raised on handouts, enlsaved by the dems for decades for votes. The dems say, you are poor because of rich fat cats, we will punish them, and give it to you.

Hence all the youtube videos of people saying things like "We gots barack" and "he's gonna pay my rents and gas"

56 kynna  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:14:38am

Being "moderate" on taxes is what's destroying the GOP.

57 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:14:50am
58 lawhawk  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:15:27am

I think Jim DeMint is starting to get the message. He's talking about narrowing the focus and looking at dealing with trying to reframe the issues that best improve GOP chances for winning in the next electoral cycle.

GOPers can't outbid Democrats on Democrat issues - they'll lose. It's time that the GOP stand up on national security and fiscal responsibility instead of trying to buy votes with adding to the federal government with new entitlements.

It's sad that it's taken this long to realize this mess. It should have come so much sooner.

59 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:15:35am

re: #38 buzzsawmonkey

Not nearly as bad as you would feel eating fish for breakfast that was not fresh.

LOL
I grew up around the Napa River..We fished that river like crazy when we were little kids/high school/College kids...I suppose We should have got a fishing license..And I kindof feel bad..But..never did...I remember being a soph and living on Riverside in Napa and having fish BBQ's most every night..
Trout is tasty..yummy

60 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:15:57am

This ad just appeared on the front page of LGF

Image: muslima.png

Mu-slima.com? Strange pick of a domain name.

61 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:16:02am

re: #40 quickjustice

Nope. But the paragraph blames Toomey, a young Turk, for Specter's demise. I think any challenger, regardless of ideology, would have pushed Specter. Toomey is more conservative than Specter. As I've posted elsewhere, the Pennsylvania GOP is moderate. It's also heavily Roman Catholic and pro-life, as are Pennsylvania Democrats. Pennsylvania elected Santorum, who was more socially conservative than Toomey.

Toomey has built a coalition based on economic conservatism (Club for Growth) and social conservatism. The question is: can Toomey capture a majority of Pennsylvania voters?

Pennsylvania voters are pro-life? The ones who handed Obama and easy victory over McCain? The ones who tossed Santorum out on his butt in 2006 after his years of making himself the poster boy for the religious right in the Senate?

I'd say abortion must be pretty far down on the list of issues that drive votes in PA, based on recent evidence.

62 Spartacus50  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:16:13am

re: #7 Altermite

I'm guessing that by 'moderates' what is meant is fiscal conservatives who aren't that into social legislation?

If so, this makes a lot of sense.

Or am I wrong?

You are wrong. Moderates can be translated to liberal Republicans (ie Christopher Shays, Arlen Specter, Linc Chaffee). Basically, Republicans need to become a lot more like Democrats.

63 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:16:22am

re: #31 Cato

I supported tose bailouts that had the government as a counterparty. I opposed those bailouts that had the government as an "investor". I think Republicans ought to try to make that distinction plain so that people understand the position that the government ought not meddle in the internal workings of private companies.

Perhaps 1 percent of the American public would understand that distinction. And not much larger a percentage of the MSM, who will continue to label any government assistance, of whatever kind, a "bailout".

64 SpaceJesus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:16:27am

3 issues the republicans need to adopt or live with once they figure out what fiscal conservatism is again,

evolution
a woman's right to choose
same-sex marriage


viola, i have fixed the party

65 midwestgak  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:16:51am

Thomas Nast's elephant
"The Off Year," Harper's Weekly, November17, 1877

The elephant has been a symbol of strength since Roman times. Its first use by the Republican Party is believed to date from a printer’s cut (pre-made pictures kept ready to use as illustrations when needed) of an elephant used by an Illinois newspaper during Abraham Lincoln’s 1860 presidential campaign. Thomas Nast was a staunch Republican, and he deliberately chose the elephant as a symbol for his own Party because of the animal’s great size, intelligence, strength, and dignity. It first appeared in his November 7, 1874 cartoon, “The Third Term Panic,” which was a comment on fears that Grant would run for a third term as President that led some Republicans to vote with the Democrats. Nast continued using the elephant thereafter, and gradually it became the Republican icon as it was adopted by other cartoonists.

66 formercorpsman  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:17:00am

FWIW, Pennsylvania is an interesting dichotomy as it concerns voters.

While debating the finer points of policy and platforms is fine, it was not as if this was a surprise for Specter. Face facts, it was his own record which did this to him. Going back on promises. The voters of this state were going to hold him accountable.

I won't throw my rose on the Republican casket just yet. I think what you are witnessing right now is the necessary internal feud that must occur, in order to establish a winning platform for the future. Moreover, this last presidential election was still somewhat close. I think one major difference, is Acorn's ability to get the younger vote to actually stand in line and cast their ballot.

So many of them being young however, are a generation departed now from the cold war. Overall, the general concept of political theft, and really the true loss of freedom under an increasingly leftward lurch of the Federal government, entitling itself to the fruits of their labor.

I think this will be at least 8 years of hard road ahead. I think we need to experience salvation/ at the hands of the government once again, in order to truly appreciate what the founders vision was.

While things look a little gloomy right now, I do have hope the ship will somehow right itself in due time.

67 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:17:27am

re: #60 Bagua

This ad just appeared on the front page of LGF

[Link: img220.imageshack.us...]

Mu-slima.com? Strange pick of a domain name.

That ad has been appearing for the past few days, if not past week here. Being a Google ad, it is subject to key words on a blog. Let's face it, there are a lot of threads about Muslims here, and it's based purely on that.

68 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:17:42am

re: #43 Charles

Let me be clear: I'm a conservative who strongly backed Rudy Giuliani in New York. Rudy was an economic conservative and a social moderate who introduced effective crime control and welfare-to-work programs that ended welfare for life, and saved NYC from bankruptcy. I think what the GOP needs are leaders who can make government work to improve the quality of people's lives while shrinking in size, and radically changing unsustainable social programs. Effective government means government whose progress you can measure.

The Obama Administration just repealed welfare-to-work. Unless we undo that, NYC's bankruptcy now is inevitable.

69 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:17:44am

re: #62 Spartacus50

Basically, Republicans need to become a lot more like Democrats.

Why not just all become democrats then?

/

70 SpaceJesus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:17:51am

voila even

71 ConservatismNow!  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:18:34am

re: #28 lawhawk

Specter was only a moderate because he could claim any position and stay in power.

72 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:19:02am

re: #43 Charles

I'd agree with that, except that all of the movement from inside the GOP right now seems to be to push even further to the right, especially on social issues. All you have to do is take a look at the GOP state platforms in almost every state to find evidence of this.

The Left wants to go down the path of Socialism, the Right down the path of Fascism. All the while the people keep demanding more bread and circuses.

73 Cicero05  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:19:15am

If the GOP is ever going to make a comeback as an electoral force, it's got to refine its message and discard the accretions that make moderates run from it. The GOP should be the party of minimum government, maximum personal freedom, combined with the proud defense of American exceptionalism and soveriegnty. Period. Divisive social issues should not be in the platform except to say that they are best left to state and local governments that are closest to the governed.

74 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:19:20am

re: #58 lawhawk

I think Jim DeMint is starting to get the message. He's talking about narrowing the focus and looking at dealing with trying to reframe the issues that best improve GOP chances for winning in the next electoral cycle.

GOPers can't outbid Democrats on Democrat issues - they'll lose. It's time that the GOP stand up on national security and fiscal responsibility instead of trying to buy votes with adding to the federal government with new entitlements.
It's sad that it's taken this long to realize this mess. It should have come so much sooner.

It is also important to limit the goals to no more than 3 major issues. Any more than that and the focus and the message are diluted to the point of becoming indiscernible.

75 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:19:31am

re: #67 Honorary Yooper

I know, but it is a bit funny they picked a domain name that sound like "slime."

76 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:20:07am

re: #51 Gus 802

May 4, 2009 - Ridge Trails Pennsylvania's Specter By 3 Points, Quinnipiac University Poll Finds; New Democratic Senator Tops Toomey By 20 Points

Arlen Specter (D) 53%
Pat Toomey (R) 33%

Arlen Specter (D) 46%
Tom Ridge (R) 43%

We'll find out how smart PA republicans are in their primary election next year.

Or Toomey may choose to stay with the Club for Growth if he feels that Ridge will give him an open phone line on fiscal issues. I hope Ridge spends some time trying to establish that relationship.

77 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:20:22am

re: #55 rightside


They will understand. Ultimately, they will understand.

78 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:20:29am
79 DaddyG  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:20:42am

re: #73 Cicero05 Well said. I'd give you more updings if I could.

80 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:20:53am

re: #51 Gus 802

May 4, 2009 - Ridge Trails Pennsylvania's Specter By 3 Points, Quinnipiac University Poll Finds; New Democratic Senator Tops Toomey By 20 Points

Arlen Specter (D) 53%
Pat Toomey (R) 33%

Arlen Specter (D) 46%
Tom Ridge (R) 43%

I'd be worried about that, except the same poll shows that 67% of Pennsylvanians don't even know who Toomey is. Obviously he's got some work to do, but it's way too early to count him out.

81 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:21:38am

re: #54 Liberal Classic

Another article that seems to portray the most vigorous faction of the Republican Party as being the fiscal wing, this time specifically mentioning the Club for Growth in its role of Specter's switch. While I don't disagree with the article where it describes the Republicans as being in "disarray", I just don't see the fiscal wing as being the cause for the party's "flirtation with irrelevancy." I have a hard time describing the previous administration and (modest) majority Republican congress as being "sufficiently committed to the goals of lower taxes and smaller, more efficient government." Are the social conservatives now moderates and the capitalists are now extremists?

From my perspective it is the blatant and overt ignoring of fiscal politics and policies that is the main impetus behind the flirtation.

82 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:21:47am

re: #75 Bagua

No it doesn't. What are you trying to say here?

83 DaddyG  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:22:01am

Perhaps the GOP should adopt the Unicorn as their new mascot? //

84 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:22:23am
85 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:22:31am
86 Russkilitlover  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:22:37am

re: #68 quickjustice

The Obama Administration just repealed welfare-to-work.


It did? Is that the Clinton program that was actually very successful? I hadn't heard it had been repealed.

87 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:22:38am
88 rightside  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:22:57am

re: #73 Cicero05

How many moderates have run from the party in the past 20 years?

Contrast that with how many have lost election/re-election to liberal democrats.

The GOP is chock full o' moderates. How's that worked for them in the past 2 cycles?

89 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:23:03am

re: #58 lawhawk

I think Jim DeMint is starting to get the message. He's talking about narrowing the focus and looking at dealing with trying to reframe the issues that best improve GOP chances for winning in the next electoral cycle.

It will be interesting to see how Jim DeMint plans on creating a "big tent" with statements like this:

If a person wants to be publicly gay, they should not be teaching in the public schools.

DeMint also wants to ban single mothers from teaching in schools.

And, of course, he's in favor of teaching "intelligent design" as science.

Jim DeMint is not any kind of poster boy for GOP moderation -- he's an extremist.

90 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:23:04am

re: #76 funky chicken

We'll find out how smart PA republicans are in their primary election next year.

Or Toomey may choose to stay with the Club for Growth if he feels that Ridge will give him an open phone line on fiscal issues. I hope Ridge spends some time trying to establish that relationship.

I know I'm generalizing but I lost a lot of respect for the voters in Pennsylvania after the Murthafucker's disparaging remarks about their being racists and rednecks, or words to that effect,.....and they still returned him to office.
Makes me wonder what it would take to wake people up. Sheesh.

91 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:23:31am

re: #58 lawhawk

I think Jim DeMint is starting to get the message. He's talking about narrowing the focus and looking at dealing with trying to reframe the issues that best improve GOP chances for winning in the next electoral cycle.

GOPers can't outbid Democrats on Democrat issues - they'll lose. It's time that the GOP stand up on national security and fiscal responsibility instead of trying to buy votes with adding to the federal government with new entitlements.

It's sad that it's taken this long to realize this mess. It should have come so much sooner.

How long until Ann Coulter starts calling him a coward and a RINO and betrayer of "the unborn" and "marriage?"

92 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:23:48am

re: #60 Bagua

This ad just appeared on the front page of LGF

[Link: img220.imageshack.us...]

Mu-slima.com? Strange pick of a domain name.

I've been seeing that one a lot. Must be the heavy occurrence of the word Muslim on this site, without considering the context.

93 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:23:55am

re: #82 doppelganglander

I'm trying to say I found it funny that they'd choose a funny name with a double entendre.

94 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:24:06am

re: #58 lawhawk

I think Jim DeMint is starting to get the message. He's talking about narrowing the focus and looking at dealing with trying to reframe the issues that best improve GOP chances for winning in the next electoral cycle.

GOPers can't outbid Democrats on Democrat issues - they'll lose. It's time that the GOP stand up on national security and fiscal responsibility instead of trying to buy votes with adding to the federal government with new entitlements.

It's sad that it's taken this long to realize this mess. It should have come so much sooner.

Time yet again for the GOP to pony up precise directions for performing liposuction on the government and letting more people keep more of their money to do with as they see fit.

95 Sabnen  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:24:16am

re: #85 buzzsawmonkey

You are very clever.

96 MarkX  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:24:37am

re: #71 ConservatismNow!

..and let's not forget he was a Dim until he jump ship on them in 1966. He's just switching back...

97 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:24:56am
98 ConservatismNow!  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:25:38am

re: #89 Charles

wait. Ban single mothers from teaching? What will that accomplish?

99 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:25:57am

re: #93 Bagua

I'm trying to say I found it funny that they'd choose a funny name with a double entendre.

I think they chose it since, correct me if I'm wrong, Muslim women are often referred to as "Muslimas".

100 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:26:13am

re: #93 Bagua

And I'm saying, it's pronounced with a long "ee" sound, and your "double entendre" is just offensive.

101 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:26:26am

re: #89 Charles

DeMint also wants to ban single mothers from teaching in schools.

And, of course, he's in favor of teaching "intelligent design" as science.

Jim DeMint is not any kind of poster boy for GOP moderation -- he's an extremist.

Sad to say that being a kook and extremist is not a detriment when it comes to getting elected as a Dem these days.

102 Guanxi88  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:26:31am

I don't see why the party couldn't coalesce around a few simple core principles:

1) Lower taxation
2) Reduced spending
3) Limited scope of government
4) Free markets
5) Liberty at home
6) Strength abroad

Doesn't seem to be all that controversial.

103 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:10am

Condoleezza Rice meets with some students, and schools them on Gitmo, terrorists and waterboarding...

104 ConservatismNow!  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:10am

re: #96 MarkX

..and let's not forget he was a Dim until he jump ship on them in 1966. He's just switching back...

right. I think we need a new phrase, Lizards. How about "Specter Moderate"? It means being politically closer to the life boats so you can jump ship faster.

105 Gus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:14am

re: #76 funky chicken

We'll find out how smart PA republicans are in their primary election next year.

Or Toomey may choose to stay with the Club for Growth if he feels that Ridge will give him an open phone line on fiscal issues. I hope Ridge spends some time trying to establish that relationship.

20 points is a rather large gap for Toomey. Specter holds a 20 point lead against both for PA union households. Specter will have to compete against Joe Sestak in the Dem primaries.

Toomey and Ridge will have to duke it out on their own and odds are that Toomey will win since it's a closed primary but that still isn't written in stone.

Still over a year to go before the voters make their final decision.

106 Guanxi88  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:28am

re: #98 ConservatismNow!

wait. Ban single mothers from teaching? What will that accomplish?

It'll register his disapproval, on our nickel, and provide yet another power-trip to a control addict.

107 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:29am

re: #98 ConservatismNow!

wait. Ban single mothers from teaching? What will that accomplish?

He wanted to ban unwed pregnant women from teaching. He later backed down on that but stuck to the "no gays out of the closet teaching" line.

108 Bill Dalasio  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:53am
His faction now helps to fund the campaigns of challengers to Republicans who it deems are insufficiently committed to the goals of lower taxes and smaller, more efficient government. But in the process it is undermining the campaign that Republicans should be fighting on similar themes but on a far larger scale - to rein in Mr Obama’s fondness for big government whenever the costs are unsustainable or the benefits moot.

No offense, but I found the this core argument of the article incredibly confusing. If Republicans accept higher taxes, and bigger, less efficient government as legitimate, what reason should they offer to challenge Mr. Obama's penchant for it?

109 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:55am

re: #89 Charles

DeMint also wants to ban single mothers from teaching in schools.

And, of course, he's in favor of teaching "intelligent design" as science.

Jim DeMint is not any kind of poster boy for GOP moderation -- he's an extremist.

No, DeMint is not the person needed for the GOP. I'd rather see either Guiliani or Romney at the head.

We also need some folks who are willing to put the socons and the neo-Birchers in their place.

110 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:57am

re: #100 doppelganglander

And I'm saying, it's pronounced with a long "ee" sound, and your "double entendre" is just offensive.

No offense intended, I'm just pointing out they made a strange choice.

111 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:27:58am

re: #97 Iron Fist

"We suck less!" is a bad platform to run on, but "We are really the same!" is even worse. Why vote for the johnny come lately faux Democrat when you can vote for Cynthia Mckinney and get the real nuttie goodness of the real Democratic Party?

The problem is that "I am not Bush" worked. Flash without substance is what the masses want, not sounds policies.

112 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:28:01am

re: #81 FurryOldGuyJeans

From my perspective it is the blatant and overt ignoring of fiscal politics and policies that is the main impetus behind the flirtation.

Why do you think those policies and politics are being ignored?

113 ORD neighbor  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:28:27am

re: #102 Guanxi88

But apparently such basic principles are too tough to stand by for a huge majority of elected politicians.

Sad reflection.

114 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:28:32am
115 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:28:40am

re: #89 Charles

DeMint also wants to ban single mothers from teaching in schools.

Oh great! So if a married teacher gets divorced, she should automatically loose her job, too? DeMint is jerk!

116 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:29:14am

re: #98 ConservatismNow!

wait. Ban single mothers from teaching? What will that accomplish?

(not answering the question directly)

Think "Sam the American Eagle" on the Muppet Show, pontificating upon Virtue.

/self-righteousness strikes a pose

117 Russkilitlover  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:29:27am

re: #107 Wendya

He wanted to ban unwed pregnant women from teaching. He later backed down on that but stuck to the "no gays out of the closet teaching" line.

Oh, brother. Let's glom on to the most rigid and extreme morality issues and make that the end all be all of the party.

118 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:29:32am

re: #89 Charles

But is he smart enough to know that his social/religious views are bad for the party's electoral prospects, and better yet, that his religious views are PRIVATE and should remain that way?

Again, I'm not religious, and I'm certainly not in favor of his weird social conservatism....but if he figures out that his opinions about homosexuals and single parents are simply his opinions, and then he has the brains to stop trying to force his opinions onto everybody else, well.....perhaps he could convince a lot of other social/religious conservatives to do the same.

Or they will all attack him as a traitor to their cause, just another weak RINO.

The latter is probably more likely, IMHO, sadly.

119 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:29:37am

re: #61 funky chicken

I did election security for McCain in Pennsylvania on election day. And I'll you: going into that election, the polls were showing Obama with an easy, 500,000 vote victory. Pennsylvania Democrats are an uneasy alliance of labor union and welfare entitlement recipients. They are heavily blue collar, Roman Catholic and pro-life. McCain ran a really rotten campaign in Pennsylvania.

Contrary to all of the polling, Obama narrowly won Pennsylvania with just 100,000 votes. He had lost his momentum, but the downdraft wasn't enough to cost him the state on election day.

Pennsylvania is definitely in play. I'm not sure Toomey is the right guy. I'd prefer a blue-collar, Roman Catholic, pro-life GOP candidate with strong family values who understands working class voters. Those candidates exist, but I'm not sure they can beat Toomey in a primary.

120 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:29:40am

re: #102 Guanxi88

I don't see why the party couldn't coalesce around a few simple core principles:

1) Lower taxation
2) Reduced spending
3) Limited scope of government
4) Free markets
5) Liberty at home
6) Strength abroad

Doesn't seem to be all that controversial.

The GOP has done it before, and each time the corruption of politics and power has shoved Republicans off the mark by their desire to get re-elected.

121 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:29:47am
122 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:29:55am

re: #107 Wendya

He wanted to ban unwed pregnant women from teaching. He later backed down on that but stuck to the "no gays out of the closet teaching" line.

So I take it DeMint would object to this guy teaching.

123 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:30:23am

re: #112 Altermite

Why do you think those policies and politics are being ignored?

Getting re-elected by buying votes with other people's money is right up there.

124 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:30:26am

re: #114 Iron Fist

They should make gun control the third point, then. Having the arguement on gun control will do nothing but harm the Democrats unless they just roll over and accept that the overwhelming sentiment in the country is against them on the issue. Either outcome would be acceptible, and both are possible.

They ought to fricking stand for the constitution and leave the social engineering to the left.

125 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:30:26am

re: #115 Kenneth

Oh great! So if a married teacher gets divorced, she should automatically loose her job, too? DeMint is jerk!

And widows with kids couldn't teach school to support them. About as brilliant as driveway gravel.

126 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:30:26am

re: #110 Bagua

No offense intended, I'm just pointing out they made a strange choice.

It's not a strange choice, as Honorary Yooper pointed out. It is the term for a female Muslim. It's only strange if you persist in mispronouncing it so it sounds like a slur -- a slur which LGF's software will automatically change, by the way. You obviously had a point to make by even mentioning it, so what is it?

127 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:30:29am

There's more to Jim DeMint: he also wants to bring prayer back into public schools, and wants to ban all abortions (even for cases involving rape, incest, or the life of the mother).

Who's he kidding with this "big tent" stuff?

128 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:30:57am

re: #107 Wendya

He wanted to ban unwed pregnant women from teaching. He later backed down on that but stuck to the "no gays out of the closet teaching" line.

DeMint apologized but clarified saying those were his personal values, but nothing that he would or could deal with as a US Senator.

129 Cicero05  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:31:18am

re: #88 rightside

How many moderates have run from the party in the past 20 years?

When I said moderates, I didn't mean politicians. (Specter and his opportunist ilk can go to hell, as far as I'm concerned.) I meant voters. Reagan didn't "expand the tent" by being a watered-down Democrat. He communicated a pro-America, small government message that attracted moderates. They became Reagan Democrats.

There is so much in the Democrat platform that would be offensive to many middle and working class self-identified Democrats if they were only aware of it. Open borders, abdication of American sovereignty, the expansion of the nanny state, higher taxes are just a start. The GOP needs to try to reach these people with a focused, consistent message that doesn't include the social baggage that alienates many of them in the first place.

130 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:31:45am

re: #114 Iron Fist

They should make gun control the third point, then. Having the arguement on gun control will do nothing but harm the Democrats unless they just roll over and accept that the overwhelming sentiment in the country is against them on the issue. Either outcome would be acceptible, and both are possible.

I could go for that. Believing in a strong national defense protects us from external threats. Believing in the 2nd Amendment protects us from internal threats, i.e. government tyranny.

131 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:32:05am

re: #86 Russkilitlover

You're correct. It was a successful Clinton initiative passed by the GOP Congress. It literally saved NYC from bankruptcy. The repeal of welfare to work was part of the "stimulus". Technically, states must take stimulus money to be required to repeal welfare to work. Most of them will take stimulus money, and will repeal welfare to work.

132 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:32:40am

re: #127 Charles

There's more to Jim DeMint: he also wants to bring prayer back into public schools, and wants to ban all abortions (even for cases involving rape, incest, or the life of the mother).

Who's he kidding with this "big tent" stuff?

Yeah...a tent about as wide as a cocktail umbrella.

133 Land Shark  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:32:42am

By the way, isn't it funny that the GOP is catching a lot of heat for it's supposed move to the right, but no one talks about the Democrat's hard turn to the left after they campaigned as "moderates"? The Democrats pulled a big time bait and switch on the nation to win the '08 election yet that isn't news. But the Republicans holding the same socially conservative ideals they've always held is a sudden turn to the right?

Charles does raise an issue that concerns me about the GOP though, the rise of Creationist platforms in GOP state parties and of kooks like Ron Paul. That is not good.

134 Spartacus50  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:33:12am

re: #69 Wendya

Why not just all become democrats then?

/

Unfortunately, it looks like thats what we've come to. Like the PRI in Mexico

135 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:33:15am

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

I would assume--and hope--that he is referring to never-wed mothers.

I was adopted from a single mom that got preggie..
I never got to meet mom and dad..But I got adopted by a great family..I'm sure glad I didn't get shit canned...

136 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:33:38am

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

I would assume--and hope--that he is referring to never-wed mothers.

So if a single teacher got pregnant, she would either have to get an abortion or loose her job?

I'm going to assume this jerks rules would not apply to teachers who are single fathers?

137 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:33:43am

re: #133 Land Shark

Charles does raise an issue that concerns me about the GOP though, the rise of Creationist platforms in GOP state parties and of kooks like Ron Paul. That is not good.

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

138 Nevergiveup  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:34:09am

I am still not going to get to worked up about the craziness in the Republican party just yet. Yes recriminations are flying. Yes we can't and shouldn't become crazy like Fox is. But sometimes it is OK to let a little blood flow in the streets for a few months. And if there is a big international crisis, all bets are off. And a Big International crisis is never that far away. I am not wishing for one, I got a lot to lose from one. But with the policies Obama is pursuing, I think we are headed down that road.

139 Russkilitlover  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:34:42am

re: #128 tfc3rid

DeMint apologized but clarified saying those were his personal values, but nothing that he would or could deal with as a US Senator.

Then he could have kept his mouth shut. "Personal values" are just that, personal. To blather on about polarizing issues is either: a) political naivete; or b) intentional.

140 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:34:47am

re: #128 tfc3rid

DeMint apologized but clarified saying those were his personal values, but nothing that he would or could deal with as a US Senator.

When faced with those type of questions, I would dearly love it if a candidate just said.... Those are not issues the United States Senate should be involved in.

141 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:34:52am

re: #126 doppelganglander

I've already made my point, I found it funny and I made it clear I intended no offense. What is your point?

142 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:35:05am

re: #127 Charles

There's more to Jim DeMint: he also wants to bring prayer back into public schools, and wants to ban all abortions (even for cases involving rape, incest, or the life of the mother).

Who's he kidding with this "big tent" stuff?

Sounds like the only tent DeMint likes is a Revival Tent converting the unwashed masses.

143 ConservatismNow!  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:35:09am

re: #137 Charles

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

no no no no no no no no. I feel like Walter Sobjak from Big Lebowski sometimes.
"Has the whole world gone CRAZY?! Am I the only one who gives a shit about the rules?!"

144 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:35:14am

Drive-by OT, sorry!

Being real busy lately I've been mostly unable to comment. But, I still load the homepage numerous times daily so not to miss the topics of discussion. What I've noticed these past days is a constant Google ad for Muslima dot com (running simultaneous as header and sidebar ads). The ad is quite disturbing to me as it depicts a woman in a hijab. I cannot be alone in believing the hijab to be a tool of Islam used to demoralize women. The hijabs depiction screams misogyny and it truly disturbs me to have to constantly view it.
If I were a conspiracy nut I'd say Google was sending them (just to piss us off) in retaliation for LGF's comments & threads with regard to their unpatriotic logo practices. I know this not to be true though as it's key-word driven, simply Intelligent Design.

145 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:35:33am

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

I would assume--and hope--that he is referring to never-wed mothers.

So a woman with a master's in education who is a good teacher should be fired if she conceives an out of wedlock child?

facepalm

146 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:35:51am

re: #139 Russkilitlover

Then he could have kept his mouth shut. "Personal values" are just that, personal. To blather on about polarizing issues is either: a) political naivete; or b) intentional.

He brought it up answering a debate question in 2004.

147 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:35:57am

re: #76 funky chicken

Ridge is a genuine idiot and thug, but if voters turn on Obama, he may be electable.

148 Guanxi88  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:35:59am

re: #137 Charles

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

Why do we tolerate people who want to turn a political party into a caucus for the mentally ill, tragically foolish, or dangerously insane? A party can have a big tent, but the tent doesn't have to be an annex of the Krankenhaus.

149 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:36:09am

re: #133 Land Shark

By the way, isn't it funny that the GOP is catching a lot of heat for it's supposed move to the right, but no one talks about the Democrat's hard turn to the left after they campaigned as "moderates"? The Democrats pulled a big time bait and switch on the nation to win the '08 election yet that isn't news. But the Republicans holding the same socially conservative ideals they've always held is a sudden turn to the right?

Charles does raise an issue that concerns me about the GOP though, the rise of Creationist platforms in GOP state parties and of kooks like Ron Paul. That is not good.

When the electorate's opinions change and your party's position doesn't; the party pays for the separation no matter who moved.

And that's how the socon social agenda disconnect with the majority of swing voters costs the GOP.

150 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:36:18am
151 Spartacus50  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:36:45am

Its funny how you don't hear much anymore about the importance of dissent.

152 Gus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:36:55am

re: #137 Charles

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

With those platforms coming out in recent weeks then we have Michael Steele saying this:

"Understand that when you come into someone's house, you're not looking to change it. You come in because that's the place you want to be."

IOW, accept the platform or go to another house.

153 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:37:00am

re: #147 quickjustice

Ridge is a genuine idiot and thug, but if voters turn on Obama, he may be electable.

He was elected twice for Governor, right?

154 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:37:23am

re: #137 Charles

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

If a parent doesn't want to vaccinate I don't think the government should force them to. On the other hand, I don't think public or private schools or daycares should be forced to admit unvaccinated students.

155 Bloodnok  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:37:46am

re: #137 Charles

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

Shhhhhhh! You don't want the Republican party to turn into Democrat-lite, do you?


////

156 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:37:58am

re: #137 Charles

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

The anti-van nuts are not only people on the far right. My hippie moonbat sister-in-law has an autistic child whom she refused to vaccinate.

157 kynna  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:38:30am

It's simple. The GOP needs to be fiscally conservative. That will delineate them from the dems and that's enough. Let the dems get all social. Keep bringing them back to the dangers of big government and don't let them get away with rewriting history. Get the truth out about just who the biggest players were in the financial collapse.

That's a full time job right there, with the MSM push back. No time to talk about the other stuff.

The GOP has become so "moderate" on taxes and big government that the only way they can distinguish themselves from the left is by social issues. That's just pathetic.

158 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:38:40am

re: #152 Gus 802

Then maybe it is time for a new house, one clear of socon baggage and kooks.

159 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:38:49am
160 _RememberTonyC  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:38:54am

It sounds like the Republican leader the party needs ... is ... Joe Lieberman. Although he is an "Independent" Democrat whose fiscal philosophy is to the left of many Republicans, he is strong on defense and wants to stay out of our bedrooms.

Politics is so freaking weird sometimes ...

161 rightside  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:39:07am

re: #129 Cicero05

Ahh, ok..I thought you meant politicians, I misunderstood.

Aye, there's the rub. IF

I agree with your last part. Steep hill to climb with the MSM.

162 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:39:33am

re: #152 Gus 802

With those platforms coming out in recent weeks then we have Michael Steele saying this:

"Understand that when you come into someone's house, you're not looking to change it. You come in because that's the place you want to be."

That would actually be a decent starting point for an immigration policy.

163 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:39:39am

re: #141 Bagua

I've already made my point, I found it funny and I made it clear I intended no offense. What is your point?

My point is I don't believe you. You are clearly trying to make a pun on "slime" in reference to that ad, and I'm telling you it's inappropriate. I'm going to drop the subject now. If Charles wants to take a look at your comments and make a call, he doesn't need me pointing it out to him.

164 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:39:47am

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

The anti-van nuts are not only people on the far right. My hippie moonbat sister-in-law has an autistic child whom she refused to vaccinate.

Wait a minute... I thought vaccinations were supposed to cause autism. If she didn't let her child be vaccinated, how did the child get autism?

MOONBAT LOGIC FAIL

165 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:39:54am

re: #133 Land Shark

The GOP is not holding to same principles they have always held to, they are gleefully abandoning them with undue haste to cater to the far-right. I do not see ANY smaller government, less taxes proposals being pushed in the mainstream.

166 Nevergiveup  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:39:59am

re: #159 effoff

effoff over and off.

167 Bloodnok  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:09am

re: #159 effoff

Please go stand by the stairs.

168 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:31am

re: #153 tfc3rid

Yes, during which time I had the pleasure of litigating against the Ridge Administration and its cover up of crimes committed during the Casey Administration. And wasn't Ridge's handling of the Homeland Security job impressive?

169 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:32am
170 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:35am
171 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:42am

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

The anti-van nuts are not only people on the far right. My hippie moonbat sister-in-law has an autistic child whom she refused to vaccinate.

The anti-vac movement seems to have come from two different angles. One is the rightist ones, the ultra-religious and the conspiracy kooks (Chem trails). The other is distinctly leftist, the back-to-nature types, and other conspiracy kooks (Big Pharma). It's yet another Moronic Convergence.

172 Grimace  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:44am

No one is pushing moderate Republicans out other than the electorate in primaries. I guess that's the price we pay for having a republican form of government.

The same thing that is being said about Republicans now was said about Democrats in the early and mid 90s. Did we forget many GOP congresspersons, e.g., Phil Gramm, Virgil Goode, etc., came from the Democratic Party? This meme about the GOP "shrinking" is because of election results that were mainly driven by an economic downturn and not the religious fervor of the GOP candidates.

173 Russkilitlover  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:58am

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

The anti-van nuts are not only people on the far right. My hippie moonbat sister-in-law has an autistic child whom she refused to vaccinate.

Like anti-semitism, anti-vacc is not party exclusive.

174 Gus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:40:58am

re: #158 Honorary Yooper

Then maybe it is time for a new house, one clear of socon baggage and kooks.

That would be the only alternative. Of course that would take some times and would have to concentrate on congressional elections. Frankly, I don't think this two party system will work anymore at least for those of us with common sense.

175 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:41:08am

re: #127 Charles

There's more to Jim DeMint: he also wants to bring prayer back into public schools, and wants to ban all abortions (even for cases involving rape, incest, or the life of the mother).

Who's he kidding with this "big tent" stuff?

He's not kidding me; however, perhaps he has realized that social/religious conservatism is poison to the GOP's national prospects and is willing to try to lead his fellow social/religious conservative toward a more reasonable political position.

I hope that's the case, and I hope "his" people listen to him. Otherwise, the GOP is done.

I've said many times that I'm probably going to look for democrats to support in primary elections for a while because I've seen how so much of the grassroots GOP has been taken over by religious fundamentalists. When the fundies control the local party apparatus, it's extremely difficult for a social moderate to get on the ballot.

176 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:41:19am

re: #168 quickjustice

Yes, during which time I had the pleasure of litigating against the Ridge Administration and its cover up of crimes committed during the Casey Administration. And wasn't Ridge's handling of the Homeland Security job impressive?

I still love the color-coded system... It's super-iffic!

177 Gus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:41:27am

re: #162 LGoPs

That would actually be a decent starting point for an immigration policy.

Yes. But he was talking about "the big tent" concept for the GOP.

178 wrenchwench  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:41:33am

re: #170 sattv4u2

The blog is called LITTLEGREENFOOTBALLS

not LITTLEGREEN SCHWINNS

Hey, now. Charles does have a Schwinn...

179 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:41:39am

re: #157 kynna

It's simple. The GOP needs to be fiscally conservative. That will delineate them from the dems and that's enough. Let the dems get all social. Keep bringing them back to the dangers of big government and don't let them get away with rewriting history. Get the truth out about just who the biggest players were in the financial collapse.

That's a full time job right there, with the MSM push back. No time to talk about the other stuff.

The GOP has become so "moderate" on taxes and big government that the only way they can distinguish themselves from the left is by social issues. That's just pathetic.

Yep. Between fiscal and social, they're choosing the wrong issue to distinguish themselves with - and the wrong issue not to.

180 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:41:54am

Stinky pulls the lever...

181 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:42:14am

re: #159 effoff

*waving goodbye as you disappear around the bend*

heh

182 _RememberTonyC  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:42:16am

re #159 .... I guess "effoff" was told to "F off" ...

Mandy would be so proud!

183 Guanxi88  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:42:19am

I'm gonna go ahead and say this right now - I'm a social and cultural conservative, albeit one with a range of interests, etc., that fall outside the spectrum of art, etc., found there.

That said, I DON'T think these preferences for cultural practices should be a matter of law. Look, the folks who put this country together held and lived a very conservative (by today's standards) way of life; when they were crafting our system of government, it would have been simplicity itself to incorporate these beliefs and practices into the machinery of the state. But they did not.

Liberty is the necessary precondition for the practice of virtue; they knew it - hell, every thinker of any note knows that a people cannot be "good" if they are not "free". Why restrict the scope of action for the display and development of virtue, which is what so many social conservatives seem to want to do?

184 ConservatismNow!  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:42:36am

re: #164 Kenneth

Wait a minute... I thought vaccinations were supposed to cause autism. If she didn't let her child be vaccinated, how did the child get autism?

MOONBAT LOGIC FAIL

*blink blink*

Bush is the devil!

185 Nevergiveup  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:42:49am

re: #182 _RememberTonyC

re #159 .... I guess "effoff" was told to "F off" ...

Mandy would be so proud!

I see his post was deleted, was he?

186 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:42:49am
187 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:43:18am

re: #159 effoff

Start your own blog and you will get more of what you want.

188 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:43:22am

re: #177 Gus 802

Yes. But he was talking about "the big tent" concept for the GOP.

I hear ya.......
:)

189 _RememberTonyC  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:43:39am

re: #185 Nevergiveup

I see his post was deleted, was he?


looks like he was blocked

190 justabill  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:43:45am

re: #99 Honorary Yooper

I think they chose it since, correct me if I'm wrong, Muslim women are often referred to as "Muslimas".

I noticed they had pictures of women(presumably Muslim) on it. I think it would be an interesting parody to have a similar site with all the women in burkas, describing the shape, color and other charismatics of their burka, talking about what they seek in men ect... Could be lots of fun, and get you killed...

191 big steve  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:43:58am

re: #137 Charles

Another issue that's starting to show up in GOP platforms -- support for parents who want to "opt out" of having their children vaccinated.

This is dead on. For someone, of which I consider myself one, who is "moderate/right" to support a candidate or a party means mentally setting of a check box with a column for what you like, a column with what you don't like but could live with, and a "eeww" column for things that you just can't live with.

All candidates I am drawn to have check boxes in the first two. However, for moderates the Republicans are getting way too many checks in the third category. This means for me to vote for someone I have to give up too much.

Charles has pointed this out on creationism......to most moderate to moderate/right voters, the increasing Republican stance as pro ID/Creationism just paints the party as anti-science and just plain stupid. The anti-Vax, the paroxisms over gay marriage, and other things are the same.

The key for the Republican party is to eliminate the "eeww" category for moderates and then make the far right decide if being moderate on these items is a deal breaker for them.

192 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:44:25am

re: #189 _RememberTonyC

looks like he was a blockhead

ftfy

193 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:44:26am

effoff has been here, and obviously an avid reader, since Oct 2004, and he goes off the rails like that. splain it?

194 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:44:52am

re: #169 buzzsawmonkey

Ideally, students would know little or nothing about their teachers' personal lives. My kids have had several teachers who tended to overshare about their personal problems. It cuts into class time, puts the students off task, and tends to reduce the students' respect for the teacher.

195 baier  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:44:58am

re: #183 Guanxi88

I'm gonna go ahead and say this right now - I'm a social and cultural conservative, albeit one with a range of interests, etc., that fall outside the spectrum of art, etc., found there.

That said, I DON'T think these preferences for cultural practices should be a matter of law. Look, the folks who put this country together held and lived a very conservative (by today's standards) way of life; when they were crafting our system of government, it would have been simplicity itself to incorporate these beliefs and practices into the machinery of the state. But they did not.

Liberty is the necessary precondition for the practice of virtue; they knew it - hell, every thinker of any note knows that a people cannot be "good" if they are not "free". Why restrict the scope of action for the display and development of virtue, which is what so many social conservatives seem to want to do?

I agree 100%. I believe in my way of life and my values, but I don't want to force laws that require others to follow my example. Nor would I want to do that...we may as well live in Iran.

196 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:45:18am

re: #174 Gus 802

That would be the only alternative. Of course that would take some times and would have to concentrate on congressional elections. Frankly, I don't think this two party system will work anymore at least for those of us with common sense.

If the two-party system broke down, it would not be the first time in American politics. Supposedly, we are in the Fifth Party System from what I've read, and maybe into a transistion period before a Sixth Party System emerges.

197 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:46:15am

re: #191 big steve

However, for moderates the Republicans are getting way too many checks in the third category.

So what do you do when that moderate Repub with "way too many checks" runs against a dem that has ALL checks in column 3?

198 _RememberTonyC  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:46:18am

re: #186 Iron Fist

Leiberman is too far Left on most issues. He is a hard-core Leftist, not really a moderate. He gets tagged as a moderate only because of his support for the war. He left the Left's plantation when he demonstrated the capacity for independant thought, and they excommunicated him (sort of; and they tried to fire him).


I will never consider Lieberman a hard core leftist. And I was being slightly facetious about him being the leader the Repubs need. But he is on the correct side of many issues and IMHO is a moderate.

199 SixDegrees  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:46:39am

re: #102 Guanxi88

I don't see why the party couldn't coalesce around a few simple core principles:

1) Lower taxation
2) Reduced spending
3) Limited scope of government
4) Free markets
5) Liberty at home
6) Strength abroad

Doesn't seem to be all that controversial.

It doesn't seem at all controversial to me, either; in fact, this is exactly the sort of platform I'd favor for the GOP.

Note, however, that (3) and (5) imply support for gay marriage, abortion and a host of other things the Religious Right will start foaming at the mouth over. The proper response to such froth is simply, "To the greatest extent possible, we believe that people should be free to live their own lives as they see fit without interference from government at any level." Period.

The GOP should stand for creating an environment where myself and everyone else will be left alone by government as much as possible. I'm perfectly capable of making my own moral and ethical decisions, thanks, and I don't need government help in that quarter.

200 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:46:51am

re: #193 unrealizedviewpoint

effoff has been here, and obviously an avid reader, since Oct 2004, and he goes off the rails like that. splain it?

We don't know if he/she/it was, in fact, an avid reader.

201 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:47:25am

re: #186 Iron Fist

Leiberman is too far Left on most issues. He is a hard-core Leftist, not really a moderate. He gets tagged as a moderate only because of his support for the war. He left the Left's plantation when he demonstrated the capacity for independant thought, and they excommunicated him (sort of; and they tried to fire him).

I agree. While I respected his principled stand on the war, the best example of his real views was when he ran for VP with Gore. He was way over the top during the primaries, which I think revealed what he truly believes in. At the same time, his ex-communication from the Democratic Party shows how totally over the top the entire Party has gone. And they call Republicans extremists? Sheesh.

202 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:47:31am

re: #193 unrealizedviewpoint

effoff has been here, and obviously an avid reader, since Oct 2004, and he goes off the rails like that. splain it?

All that Elmers Glue sniffing and Lead Paint Chip eating finally caught up to him

203 baier  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:47:38am

re: #198 _RememberTonyC

I will never consider Lieberman a hard core leftist. And I was being slightly facetious about him being the leader the Repubs need. But he is on the correct side of many issues and IMHO is a moderate.

I would pull the lever for Joe without flinching...without Gore was on the ticket!

204 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:47:45am

re: #193 unrealizedviewpoint

effoff has been here, and obviously an avid reader, since Oct 2004, and he goes off the rails like that. splain it?

Someone's sleeping sock puppet?

205 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:47:51am

re: #169 buzzsawmonkey

I'm not casting aspersions on anyone, merely observing that by advocating that never-wed mothers not be teachers, DeMint is merely agreeing with the leftist notion of "role models" being important.

I think it's great that you were adopted by a good family; I'm all for such resolutions to a difficult situation, which results in the child having a chance at a good life. But in a society where unwed pregnancy occurs at a high rate, is it so terribly unreasonable to say merely that social endorsement of unwed pregnancy should not extend to hiring teachers who are unwed mothers?


No I was adopted by Angels...It's that simple..I owe Mommy and Daddy my life..They didn't have to do anything..But they stepped up to the plate and took a baby into their home..I owe them everything..

206 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:48:03am

re: #191 big steve

I know any candidate on the ballot will not be 100% of what I want nor represent my views, in the past Republicans were a closer match than Dems as a whole, usually much closer. Increasingly I am finding less and less in common with any candidate being put up.

207 big steve  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:48:08am

re: #197 sattv4u2

However, for moderates the Republicans are getting way too many checks in the third category.

So what do you do when that moderate Repub with "way too many checks" runs against a dem that has ALL checks in column 3?

Hasn't happened in a Presidential race (voted McCain) however in the looming Texas governer race, if "Great Hair" Perry manages to not get his ass kicked by Kay Bailey, then I am sorry to say I cannot vote for that man no matter who runs against him.

208 Gus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:48:12am

re: #196 Honorary Yooper

If the two-party system broke down, it would not be the first time in American politics. Supposedly, we are in the Fifth Party System from what I've read, and maybe into a transistion period before a Sixth Party System emerges.

In theory since the other alternative parties never make it past election day. We already have so called 3rd parties but they seem to be the bastion of extremists of one stripe or another. Not happy with the Libertarians or the others.

209 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:48:16am

The pre-Roe v. Wade position of those states that banned abortion was that abortion was illegal except in cases of rape, incest, and to protect the life of the mother. DeMint has adopted the position of the Roman Catholic Church on abortion almost verbatim. No abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

That's more extreme than the law pre-Roe.

210 Guanxi88  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:48:58am

re: #199 SixDegrees

It doesn't seem at all controversial to me, either; in fact, this is exactly the sort of platform I'd favor for the GOP.

Note, however, that (3) and (5) imply support for gay marriage, abortion and a host of other things the Religious Right will start foaming at the mouth over. The proper response to such froth is simply, "To the greatest extent possible, we believe that people should be free to live their own lives as they see fit without interference from government at any level." Period.

The GOP should stand for creating an environment where myself and everyone else will be left alone by government as much as possible. I'm perfectly capable of making my own moral and ethical decisions, thanks, and I don't need government help in that quarter.

(3) and (5) would, to my way of thinking, provide a ready demonstration of federalism in action and states' rights. Let the people decide, state-by-state, if they wish. Nationally, no position need be taken, as these things are not the proper concern of the state.

211 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:49:22am

re: #163 doppelganglander

My point is I don't believe you. You are clearly trying to make a pun on "slime" in reference to that ad, and I'm telling you it's inappropriate. I'm going to drop the subject now. If Charles wants to take a look at your comments and make a call, he doesn't need me pointing it out to him.

I've made it very clear several times that I meant no offense to anyone, if it was in poor taste to point out that the choice of a domain name was odd then I apologize.

212 Ward Cleaver  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:49:26am

re: #207 big steve

Hasn't happened in a Presidential race (voted McCain) however in the looming Texas governer race, if "Great Hair" Perry manages to not get his ass kicked by Kay Bailey, then I am sorry to say I cannot vote for that man no matter who runs against him.

Kinky's making noises about running as a Dem in the primary next year. I don't think he'd get the nomination, though.

213 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:49:51am

re: #207 big steve

Hasn't happened in a Presidential race (voted McCain) however in the looming Texas governer race, if "Great Hair" Perry manages to not get his ass kicked by Kay Bailey, then I am sorry to say I cannot vote for that man no matter who runs against him.

Sorry,, but I never understood the logic of not voting for someone that will give me 50% of what I want as opposed to allowing the person that will give me 100% of what I DON'T want to win!

214 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:49:55am

re: #200 pre-Boomer Marine brat

We don't know if he/she/it was, in fact, an avid reader.

His comment read as though he followed LGF. He even commented about the Cycle of Violence threads. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

215 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:02am

re: #168 quickjustice

Yes, during which time I had the pleasure of litigating against the Ridge Administration and its cover up of crimes committed during the Casey Administration. And wasn't Ridge's handling of the Homeland Security job impressive?

And Bush covered up for Clinton, and Obama is covering up for Bush. One reason the entire political establishment was against McCain and Palin was that they might not have continued that pattern.

Ridge isn't my hero, but I suppose you think Napolitano and Chertoff did a superior job at DHS?

216 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:04am
217 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:12am

re: #199 SixDegrees

It doesn't seem at all controversial to me, either; in fact, this is exactly the sort of platform I'd favor for the GOP.

Note, however, that (3) and (5) imply support for gay marriage, abortion and a host of other things the Religious Right will start foaming at the mouth over. The proper response to such froth is simply, "To the greatest extent possible, we believe that people should be free to live their own lives as they see fit without interference from government at any level." Period.

The GOP should stand for creating an environment where myself and everyone else will be left alone by government as much as possible. I'm perfectly capable of making my own moral and ethical decisions, thanks, and I don't need government help in that quarter.

Well said. I'd like to see a plank in the platform that explicitly states the party does not take any position on religious or social matters except to endorse separation of church and state and freedom of religion, speech, association, etc. for all. This will probably never happen.

218 big steve  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:18am

re: #206 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know any candidate on the ballot will not be 100% of what I want nor represent my views, in the past Republicans were a closer match than Dems as a whole, usually much closer. Increasingly I am finding less and less in common with any candidate being put up.


Precisely.....most of the time I find Republican candidates have more positives, fewer negatives, and a minimum of awful positions. However imagine a race in 4 years with Obama v. Jindal?

219 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:25am

re: #205 HoosierHoops

My wife was adopted. Her parents were regular folk, far from perfect, but they made her feel loved and cherished. Ordinary heroes.

220 Zimriel  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:30am

I have read the article and I concede the point that the average voter is getting turned off the Republicans.

But although social conservatism is mentioned (in the form of abortion), here is what takes up more pixels:

As a fiscal conservative, Mr Toomey's insurgency was triggered by the expansion of state power and spending under President Bush, not his successor. His faction now helps to fund the campaigns of challengers to Republicans who it deems are insufficiently committed to the goals of lower taxes and smaller, more efficient government. But in the process it is undermining the campaign that Republicans should be fighting on similar themes but on a far larger scale - to rein in Mr Obama's fondness for big government whenever the costs are unsustainable or the benefits moot.

Got that, lizards? It's fiscal conservatives to blame for this mess. Let me zimriel-ise this for you:

Voters can't help but vote for free stuff, and they're okay with being lied to. Republicans need to roll over on all entitlements unless "the benefits are moot", which in practice means never. Republicans serious about a balanced budget ought to lie about that, so that the voters can at least vote for their free stuff under the "R" label. Hey, it worked for Obama.

That's bullshit, in my view; and I hope that no-one here actually believes it. Allow me to offer an alternative.

I think Republican failure is more because the Republicans are messageless, than that some Republicans actually care about our financial health. If the Republicans were more united for these ideas, the voters would at least see the Republicans as a disciplined lot; and they would adjust their personal opinions to agree with the settled Republican opinion.

And the toxic ideas which our leaders are toleration re: intelligent-design and vaccines don't help; they are adding to the dissension as some Republicans push back in public. (And, of course, these ideas are giving cover to the likes of Snowe to betray the fiscal plank as well. Social conservatism as distraction is not only used by social conservatives.)

221 baier  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:40am

re: #208 Gus 802

In theory since the other alternative parties never make it past election day. We already have so called 3rd parties but they seem to be the bastion of extremists of one stripe or another. Not happy with the Libertarians or the others.

Even if someone were successful in creating a viable third party we'd have to be willing to write off 2012. There is no way to pull it off in time.

222 dhg4  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:44am

re: #30 yma o hyd

Since its 30 years when Maggie came to power, there are lots of reminiscences. Here, hwoever, is a very good look not just back but to the future:
Margaret Thatcher: how the Tories have moved on from her leadership
From that link:
'In the years between the fall of Margaret Thatcher in 1990 and the rise of David Cameron 15 years later, the brilliant success of her government came to seem almost more of a curse than a blessing to successive leaders. Policy innovation became very difficult without reopening old factional splits, social renewal could look frivolous, drawing a line under unpopular old policies could look like betrayal. Margaret Thatcher’s own appearances, greeted with fully deserved adulation from Tory audiences, often made life difficult for the current incumbent.
David Cameron had the inestimable advantage of the passing of those long years. The old factions had become meaningless. old battles half buried, people who hate each other had begun to forget what it was they had been arguing about. It was possible to move on. The almost unsolvable puzzle — how to deal with the Thatcher legacy — became easier to resolve.'

The GOP stands at the same crossroads as the Tory Party did after the NuLab victory 12 years ago. The GOP cannot afford to spend 12 years in the wilderness, like the Tory Party, with infighting and election losses.
The GOP cannot afford to let the Old Beasts determine the course and let the young Republicans fall by the wayside.
Some ruthlessness is needed - indeed, without ruthlessness Maggie would not have been able to grasp the Tory leadership and win the elections against Labour, 30 years ago.
So - get cracking! Its down to you all - not to some old GOP hero!

To some degree this seems to be an American counterpart to that Thatcher article.

Instead, from his very first days of political communication, Reagan made use of every opportunity to actually talk about the principles, as opposed to merely using the word. He did this in a folksy way – but one that gave him valuable political exposure – during his days of hosting General Electric Theater on TV, and traveling for GE to speak to employee gatherings across the nation. He did this in his famous political break-out speech at the Republican convention in 1964; a speech remembered and still referenced in GOP iconography not because he spoke earnestly of “principles,” but because he enunciated them. He campaigned in California on principles outlined and explained, not merely invoked like a mantra, and he did the same in his bid for the Republican nomination in 1976. It was his enunciation of specific principles that alarmed what was then called the “Rockefeller wing” of the GOP, as Reagan’s supporters nearly toppled its approved candidate, incumbent President Gerald Ford.

In his years out of active campaigning, Reagan made use of his radio talks to, yet again, enunciate principles: principles of conservative governance, of man and the state, of economic liberty, of taxes and regulation and small government, of national strength and American leadership. I have no idea how often Reagan said the word “principle,” but it was no more often than he actually described his principles – unlike the inverted ratio of today’s GOP politicians in that regard.

It is not the lack of moderates that's hurting the GOP. It certainly didn't hurt the Democrats. Four and a half years ago, many of us were laughing at Howard Dean, but now he's captured the Democratic Party and two of the three branches of government.

Republicans need to convey their ideas effectively. That's something that they've been failing to do in recent years.

223 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:50:46am

re: #204 Honorary Yooper

Someone's sleeping sock puppet?

IIRC, it had posted 40-something comments in 4 1/2 years. Just in idle curiousity, I'd like to know if those were clustered way-back-when, or spread out more-or-less evenly.

/aw, ... wtf does it matter?

224 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:51:07am

re: #213 sattv4u2

Sorry,, but I never understood the logic of not voting for someone that will give me 50% of what I want as opposed to allowing the person that will give me 100% of what I DON'T want to win!

Like electing a socialist who hates this country for President instead of a Vietnam Vet, POW war hero, who might not make everyone happy but would be a hell of a lot of a better choice for this country.

225 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:51:38am
226 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:51:44am

re: #213 sattv4u2

Sorry,, but I never understood the logic of not voting for someone that will give me 50% of what I want as opposed to allowing the person that will give me 100% of what I DON'T want to win!

The people who refused to vote for McCain got Obama instead. Yeah, that's standing up for one's principles.

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

227 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:51:52am

re: #202 sattv4u2

All that Elmers Glue sniffing and Lead Paint Chip eating finally caught up to him

Can ya get high off Elmer's Glue?

228 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:52:54am

re: #214 unrealizedviewpoint

His comment read as though he followed LGF. He even commented about the Cycle of Violence threads. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

What were they? Sounds like something before I began reading (roughly summer 2006).

229 Zimriel  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:52:56am

re: #4 SlartyBartfast

It's sad how we must rely on foreign news outlets for thoughtful analysis of our own political situation.

The state of the U.S. Media? MIA.

It would be sad if this mindless me-tooism agrees with your analysis of our political situation. The editorial was written by an ignorant foreigner. What's your excuse?

230 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:02am

re: #216 buzzsawmonkey

There was an interesting case a few years ago here in NY, where a Catholic grammar school teacher was dismissed for being pregnant outside of wedlock... It violated her contract's 'morality clause' (since you are working for the Church)... She appealed, it was upheld.

231 justabill  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:02am

re: #190 justabill

I noticed they had pictures of women(presumably Muslim) on it. I think it would be an interesting parody to have a similar site with all the women in burkas, describing the shape, color and other charismatics of their burka, talking about what they seek in men ect... Could be lots of fun, and get you killed...

Let this be a lesson to you boys and girls, never trust a computer, not even a spell checker...

232 yochanan  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:19am

in Il. the issue is
corruption
CORRUPTION
DID I SAY CORRUPTION

233 Gus  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:25am

re: #221 baier

Even if someone were successful in creating a viable third party we'd have to be willing to write off 2012. There is no way to pull it off in time.

Right. That's why I think the primary goals would have to be congressional seats. It would be long range plan but if we don't start it will never happen and the USA will be stuck in two-party rule forever.

234 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:26am

There is perhaps another GOP route to regain power:
Obama and the Dems, in an endless orgy of extreme leftism, thoroughly self-destruct before 2012, and the GOP wins big in a reactionary landslide in spite of its extreme right wing tilt.
I would call this the Hail Mary Scenario.

235 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:30am

re: #218 big steve

Precisely.....most of the time I find Republican candidates have more positives, fewer negatives, and a minimum of awful positions. However imagine a race in 4 years with Obama v. Jindal?

I vote for the candidate who is more in line with my principles. For that reason, amongst others, I voted for Perot, twice.

236 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:52am

I always miss the flameouts. Waaaa.

237 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:53:56am

re: #232 yochanan

in Il. the issue is
corruption
CORRUPTION
DID I SAY CORRUPTION

What was that you said?

238 DaddyG  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:54:00am

Given the Muslima ad comes up due to key word usage, why don't we have more Boob related ads?

239 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:55:06am

re: #218 big steve

Precisely.....most of the time I find Republican candidates have more positives, fewer negatives, and a minimum of awful positions. However imagine a race in 4 years with Obama v. Jindal?

In that case, I'd vote for someone else, someone more capable than either of them, someone with more credibility, someone more likable.

I'd write in someone who would make a better President than either of them.

240 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:55:13am

re: #236 funky chicken

I always miss the flameouts. Waaaa.

This one was done and over in the blink of an eye, not much to see.

241 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:55:25am

re: #214 unrealizedviewpoint

... Cycle of Violence threads. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

242 ConservatismNow!  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:55:37am

re: #238 DaddyG

Given the Muslima ad comes up due to key word usage, why don't we have more Boob related ads?

Dude. That's where the ads came from. Muslims and Boobs. Muslim dating site.

243 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:55:40am
244 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:56:05am

re: #241 Charles

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

Wow.

245 ointmentfly  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:56:52am

I just love the press.... The failure of the republican party is not because it is not moderate enough. GWB put the "M" in moderate! The size of the republican party is due to a relentless 8 year assault by the main stream media on Bush, first because he beat Gore and then went to Iraq....

Unfortunately, the only solution is to allow Obama to do his Carter impersonation and rebuild from there once everybody remembers that we have a constitution again....

246 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:56:57am

re: #241 Charles

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

I wondered about that, and I'm happy to hear you are taking sensible precautions, what with the nutters being everywhere.

247 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:57:01am

re: #213 sattv4u2

Sorry,, but I never understood the logic of not voting for someone that will give me 50% of what I want as opposed to allowing the person that will give me 100% of what I DON'T want to win!

Our political system is based on compromise. The "I won, screw you" mentality that we've seen from the left and from the right creates a great deal of anger in voters in the minority party and often leads to a backlash against the majority.

248 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:57:03am

re: #241 Charles

UH oh!
(I guess that WAS before I started reading LGF regularly.)

249 big steve  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:57:04am

re: #213 sattv4u2

Sorry,, but I never understood the logic of not voting for someone that will give me 50% of what I want as opposed to allowing the person that will give me 100% of what I DON'T want to win!

So would you vote for a Republican that say was virulently for openly teaching creationism in school but otherwise was a good candidate?

250 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:57:06am

re: #241 Charles

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

I had wondered and speculated if that might have been the reason why your cycling threads had ceased.

251 doppelganglander  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:57:17am

re: #230 tfc3rid

There was an interesting case a few years ago here in NY, where a Catholic grammar school teacher was dismissed for being pregnant outside of wedlock... It violated her contract's 'morality clause' (since you are working for the Church)... She appealed, it was upheld.

I remember that one. As a private entity, they can do that. Public schools, not so much.

252 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:57:46am

re: #241 Charles

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

You no longer ride the runways at Denver Airport?

253 ladycatnip  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:04am

#169 buzzsawmonkey

I'm not casting aspersions on anyone, merely observing that by advocating that never-wed mothers not be teachers, DeMint is merely agreeing with the leftist notion of "role models" being important.

The leftist notion would want the unwed teacher to use her pregnancy as a teaching moment - that a marriage cert isn't necessary, that families consist of whatever you want them to be. The far-right would want her fired for being a negative influence and a poor role model. The balanced position would be for the teacher to continue teaching, but keep her private business private.

254 big steve  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:07am

re: #241 Charles

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

This is just about the saddest thing I have heard for a while. The man can't even cycle in peace!

255 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:11am

IMHO, the Republicans have been backed into this corner by the MSM, who portray every person with a fringe-opinion as being representative of all Republicans, while not performing the same service when it comes to left-fringe persons who can be reasonably tied to the current cabal running our government. Without the constant hammering on the soc-con themes and the deliberate ignoring of leftists, the great majority of people in the center would be a lot more comfortable with the Republicans, and a lot less comfortable with the Democrats.

Without this constant spotlighting by the MSM, the Republicans could safely ignore the kooks on the fringe of many social issues.

America is, at its core, a center-right country, and a fair presentation of current political news would augur well for a traditional Republican party. But the Fourth Estate has cast its lot with the far left, and we all have to live with the consequences.

256 Spare O'Lake  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:21am

re: #238 DaddyG

Given the Muslima ad comes up due to key word usage, why don't we have more Boob related ads?

Shall one endeavour to use the words "breast" and "enhancement" whenever possible?

257 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:23am

Winning changes everything...

258 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #245 ointmentfly

I just love the press.... The failure of the republican party is not because it is not moderate enough. GWB put the "M" in moderate! The size of the republican party is due to a relentless 8 year assault by the main stream media on Bush, first because he beat Gore and then went to Iraq....

Unfortunately, the only solution is to allow Obama to do his Carter impersonation and rebuild from there once everybody remembers that we have a constitution again....

I find it interesting that so many Republicans accept no personal responsibility and blame everybody else for their shortcomings.

259 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:37am

re: #249 big steve

So would you vote for a Republican that say was virulently for openly teaching creationism in school but otherwise was a good candidate?

If he were running against a candidate that I disagreed with one 100% other things ,, YES

WHY? Becasue there are other checks and balances to insure that ONE issue is not adopted

260 MandyManners  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:58:46am

re: #252 unrealizedviewpoint

You no longer ride the runways at Denver Airport?

He rides down the hallways in the underground caverns.

261 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:59:06am

re: #245 ointmentfly

O has far surpassed Carter, and in 100 days instead of 4 years. O is actively trashing America, Carter just fumbled his way and did nothing.

262 Dave the.....  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:59:07am
So would you vote for a Republican that say was virulently for openly teaching creationism in school but otherwise was a good candidate?

I would. Especially if the alternative is a left wing Democrat who is going to put in Ruth Bater Ginsberg clones in Fed'l judge positions. If you want a judge using Swedish law in making her decisions.....

263 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:59:09am

re: #220 Zimriel

Hey Zim. With Bush, they got tax cuts and MORE free stuff. All the while, Bush grew the deficit (of course) and starved the military (yes, yes he did--Obama's defense budget is larger than Bush's was, which is a damn shame).

Honestly, I think Bush and Rove killed tax cuts as an issue, IMHO.

264 MandyManners  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:59:39am

re: #254 big steve

This is just about the saddest thing I have heard for a while. The man can't even cycle in peace!

At least he's safe from those fascist headwinds.

265 yma o hyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:59:50am

re: #222 dhg4

From your link:
'Instead, from his very first days of political communication, Reagan made use of every opportunity to actually talk about the principles, as opposed to merely using the word.'
(Emphasis by me)

That is extremely interesting - because one commentator in this Maggie-Jubilee today (sorree, no linkie, can't recall where I saw it!) made exactly the same point: that Maggie had principles, and that tehse guided ehr politics.

I think thats why Reagan and Maggie got on so well - they recognised that in each other.

I believe its this lack of priciples, as opposed to political expediency, which is the downfall of so many conservative politicians.
Principles are not supporting creationists or being anti-abortion or hating gays.
Principles are ideas like small government, tight grip on state expenditure, priorities of where taxpayers' money goes - and yes, personal probity as opposed to being on the take ...

I do hope the GOP doesn't have to go through 8 years of wilderness!

266 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:59:52am
267 Guanxi88  Mon, May 4, 2009 10:59:58am

re: #260 MandyManners

He rides down the hallways in the underground caverns.

For security reasons, though, we won't say whether these are the caverns of the Zionist Global Conspiracy Headquarters or the Zionist Treasure Caves.

268 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:00:27am

re: #252 unrealizedviewpoint

You no longer ride the runways at Denver Airport?

He found the exhaust was too taxiing.
/or was it the other way around? ... I need more coffee

269 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:00:27am

re: #259 sattv4u2

If he were running against a candidate that I disagreed with one 100% other things ,, YES

WHY? Becasue there are other checks and balances to insure that ONE issue is not adopted

Unless, of course, one party controls all of the checks and balances...

270 JammieWearingFool  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:00:48am

Good riddance to Arlen Specter. He's already a headache for the Democrats.

271 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:01:06am

re: #269 tfc3rid

Unless, of course, one party controls all of the checks and balances...

Then 'we" get the gov't 'we" voted for.

272 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:01:10am

re: #261 FurryOldGuyJeans

O has far surpassed Carter, and in 100 days instead of 4 years. O is actively trashing America, Carter just fumbled his way and did nothing.

O is hitting the 'reset' button for America...

273 Occasional Reader  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:01:11am

re: #241 Charles

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

Charles, I'm very sorry to hear that. It's definitely a wise move, not posting your normal routes.

If you haven't already done so, you should consider concealed carry (much as I hate to say it).

274 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:01:12am

re: #258 Killgore Trout

I find it interesting that so many Republicans accept no personal responsibility and blame everybody else for their shortcomings.

That seems to be SOP for politicians of either political stripe and not confined to just one of them. They're both hypocritical. Look at Larry Craig and his restroom problems, look at Al Gore and his huge house and jet.

275 big steve  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:01:40am

re: #260 MandyManners

He rides down the hallways in the underground caverns.

I wonder....does the big lizard have one of the kids bicycle plates behind the seat that says "Chuckie"

276 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:01:42am

re: #249 big steve

So would you vote for a Republican that say was virulently for openly teaching creationism in school but otherwise was a good candidate?

I know you didn't ask me the question, but.....

On certain topics and issues there are unequivocal deal-breakers, and Religion masquerading as Science in schools is one of them.

Each candidate gets the hairy eyeball from me before I darken in the square.

277 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:01:55am

re: #271 sattv4u2

Then 'we" get the gov't 'we" voted for.

But of course... Ugh, America is so screwed...

278 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:02:08am

re: #258 Killgore Trout

I find it interesting that so many Republicans accept no personal responsibility and blame everybody else for their shortcomings.

For a second there I thought you were talking about Obama.

279 Bill Dalasio  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:02:16am

Honestly, I can't say that social issues really even belong at the national level of politics. Local preferences and conditions make social issues perhaps the ideal set of issues to be appropriately left to the states. The problem is that activists of both liberal and conservative stripes seem bound and determined to elevate these matters to the national stage and impose their local preferences as a national standard.

280 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:02:25am

BBIAB

281 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:02:26am

re: #253 ladycatnip

#169 buzzsawmonkey


The leftist notion would want the unwed teacher to use her pregnancy as a teaching moment - that a marriage cert isn't necessary, that families consist of whatever you want them to be. The far-right would want her fired for being a negative influence and a poor role model. The balanced position would be for the teacher to continue teaching, but keep her private business private.

Good point. I was talking to my wife last night and said that it bothers me that there seems to be an obsession with politicizing everything. I think this started as a leftist opbsession, something along the lines of the personal being political.........or something like that. And of course there will be a reaction when the right pushes back.
Be nice if more people just goddammed kept their private affairs, private.

282 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:02:51am

re: #241 Charles

I hope you reported these to the authorities.

283 countrygurl  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:02:57am

re: #101 FurryOldGuyJeans
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
I don't disagree with the analysis that Demint is a kook, but I did find an interesting sentence in the Wiki piece linked above. According to Wiki, he said single mothers "living with boyfriends" should be disqualified from public teaching posts. Later, he retracted that statement as a policy statement, claiming that this was only his personal opinion. I think this is called "back pedaling" or CYA.

284 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:00am

And lest we forget, who was the person who introduces the term "born-again Christian" to the American political lexicon?

That famous representative of the radical religious right, Jimmy Carter.

I'm a dangerous person, I can remember things that have been flushed down the memory hole.

285 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:05am

re: #272 tfc3rid

O is hitting the 'reset' button for America...

Not even a reset, total make-over is more like it.

286 Guanxi88  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:05am

re: #271 sattv4u2

Then 'we" get the gov't 'we" voted for.

I think it was Mencken who wrote that people "get the government they deserve, and they're getting it good and hard," or words to that effect.

287 Cygnus  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:05am

re: #176 tfc3rid

I still love the color-coded system... It's super-iffic!

I like the memory aid somebody created for the system: George Bush Yells Out 'Run!'.

288 Occasional Reader  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:06am

And in other oh-so-cheerful news:

As the U.S. Retreats, Iran is Filling the Void

by Amir Taheri

Convinced that the Obama administration is preparing to retreat from the Middle East, Iran's Khomeinist regime is intensifying its goal of regional domination. It has targeted six close allies of the U.S.: Egypt, Lebanon, Bahrain, Morocco, Kuwait and Jordan, all of which are experiencing economic and/or political crises.

289 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:08am

re: #135 HoosierHoops

I was adopted from a single mom that got preggie..
I never got to meet mom and dad..But I got adopted by a great family..I'm sure glad I didn't get shit canned...

I am too, HH,

290 Sabnen  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:11am

re: #263 funky chicken

Obama's Defense budget is not bigger than Bush's. To compare you have to include the special appropriation bills that were regularly passed to fund Irag and Afghanistan during the Bush Administration..

291 ointmentfly  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:15am

re: #244 LGoPs

re: #258 Killgore Trout

I blame the republican party for the failure of the republican party, but was there not a concerted effort to discredit the party and its leader at every turn the last 8 years?

292 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:19am

re: #265 yma o hyd

I believe its this lack of priciples, as opposed to political expediency, which is the downfall of so many conservative politicians.

Precisely.

293 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:25am

re: #278 Wendya

Yes, it's typically a liberal trait.

294 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:26am
295 Dave the.....  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:03:29am

My question for Spechter.....if we wouldn't have spent so much on AIDS (is it a disease, or a political cause?), we could have spent more on cancer and heart disease.

296 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:04:14am

re: #285 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not even a reset, total make-over is more like it.

I hope he gets the translation right this time...

297 countrygurl  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:04:39am

Everyone go click on the Muslima.com site.
I love that they are helping funds LGF, don't you!

298 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:04:57am

Charles: That is so much bullshit..How much precious blood of our Children and our fathers..How much has been shed for the right to express our opinion? America protects those bike paths with our words and strength..
You have a nice ride friend..

299 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:05:09am

re: #285 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not even a reset, total make-over is more like it.

For the economy, the button he pressed is "flush".

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:05:23am

re: #273 Occasional Reader

... you should consider concealed carry ....

Does Adriana do concealed carry?

/just wondering ... :D

301 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:05:45am

re: #289 reine.de.tout

{reine} How are you doing today?

302 yochanan  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:05:52am

re: #224 tfc3rid

The term R.I.N.O. helped get us Obama enjoy it perfect consecrative circular firing squad some of you got what you wanted.

303 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:06:13am
304 Wendya  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:06:19am

re: #295 Dave the.....

My question for Spechter.....if we wouldn't have spent so much on AIDS (is it a disease, or a political cause?), we could have spent more on cancer and heart disease.

Specter was just whoring to the left with that tidbit. With any luck, it will come back to bite him in the ass.

305 Zimriel  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:06:21am

re: #263 funky chicken

Hey Zim. With Bush, they got tax cuts and MORE free stuff. All the while, Bush grew the deficit (of course) and starved the military (yes, yes he did--Obama's defense budget is larger than Bush's was, which is a damn shame).

Honestly, I think Bush and Rove killed tax cuts as an issue, IMHO.

You know, I was going to include something about the Bush family and Lyndon Johnson (and I guess we could add Nixon to that); but I trimmed it down on the principle of "lean and mean". Which is to say, we're in total agreement.

The Times wants us to bring back Bush and to increase further the dependency of the electorate but under a "republican" label. I guess they're offering us this advice because, as Brits, they're more into white people and the Republican Party is the one with the larger share of the white vote. I can't see any other difference between their ideal for the Republicans and the reality for the Democrats.

GAZE to the Times.

306 SixDegrees  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:06:32am

re: #265 yma o hyd

From your link:
'Instead, from his very first days of political communication, Reagan made use of every opportunity to actually talk about the principles, as opposed to merely using the word.'
(Emphasis by me)

That is extremely interesting - because one commentator in this Maggie-Jubilee today (sorree, no linkie, can't recall where I saw it!) made exactly the same point: that Maggie had principles, and that tehse guided ehr politics.

I think thats why Reagan and Maggie got on so well - they recognised that in each other.

I believe its this lack of priciples, as opposed to political expediency, which is the downfall of so many conservative politicians.
Principles are not supporting creationists or being anti-abortion or hating gays.
Principles are ideas like small government, tight grip on state expenditure, priorities of where taxpayers' money goes - and yes, personal probity as opposed to being on the take ...

I do hope the GOP doesn't have to go through 8 years of wilderness!

Totally agree on the principles angle. When Reagan was first elected, I was appalled. As time wore on, I began to notice that you always knew exactly where he stood, because he didn't waffle or bullshit - he just told you, straight up, what his position was. It was a trait I eventually came to admire.

He also made it clear that, this being America, it was find to have differing opinions; he never demanded that the country move in lock-step with his own principles.

As Hank Hill once said, "God, I miss voting for that man."

307 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:06:47am

re: #243 buzzsawmonkey

That's interesting, in that she was abiding by Church teaching by not opting for a (legal) abortion to keep her job. OK, she'd violated such teaching by having had sex outside of marriage, but it still seems pretty tough that her employers did not give her credit for refusing the abortion option.

That kind of malicious hypocrisy is all too common among puritanical antiabortionists.

My ex-wife had been a US Naval officer before we met in graduate school and married. She had been assigned to public affairs at a post in Italy. She was lonely, and began a relationship with another Naval officer. She used a diaphragm, but it failed her, and she became pregnant. She was also Roman Catholic.

Distraught, she went to her commanding officer, who was also Roman Catholic; he strongly advised her not to have an abortion, but to give it up for adoption there, and he would assist her in any way he could, and she agreed.

As soon as it was too late for her to have an abortion, her commanding officer called her in front of the assembled unit and publicly denounced her as a whore and a strumpet. Meanwhile, other female Navy members who got pregnant were flying to Germany over the weekend and having abortions, and suffering no career or social consequences.

She carried the pregnancy to term, and gave the baby up for adoption. And she left the Navy. And she left the Roman Catholic Church.

308 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:06:53am

re: #283 countrygurl

Wiki is not the most unbiased source available when it comes to things and people not on the far, far Left. I've ingested so many grains of salt when dealing with Wiki I get sodium overdose problems.

309 LGoPs  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:07:09am

re: #258 Killgore Trout

I find it interesting that so many Republicans accept no personal responsibility and blame everybody else for their shortcomings.

Fine. It's all my fault. The MFM and it's 8 year propaganda campaign had nothing to do with it.

310 ConservatismNow!  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:07:10am

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Does Adriana do concealed carry?

/just wondering ... :D

No she doesn't. I checked thoroughly.

311 Vicious Babushka  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:07:28am

re: #241 Charles

I received specific threats, involving my cycling routes, and decided not to post any more information that could be used to find me.

Stay safe, Lizard Overlord

312 Land Shark  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:08:16am

re: #245 ointmentfly

I have to disagree a bit. The press' onslaught on Bush didn't hurt the GOP like it's abandonment of fiscal restraint and small government did. It's why so many Conservatives stayed home for the '06 elections and so many moderates, independents and even some Republicans voted for Obama in '08. The Republicans created their own mess.

313 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:09:23am

re: #259 sattv4u2

If he were running against a candidate that I disagreed with one 100% other things ,, YES

WHY? Becasue there are other checks and balances to insure that ONE issue is not adopted

Yeah, riiight, shuuuure...like in Louisiana...

314 Occasional Reader  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:09:24am

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Does Adriana do concealed carry?

/just wondering ... :D

I don't know, but whenever I see her, [fill in "pistol in my pocket" quote here].

315 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:09:56am

re: #310 ConservatismNow!

No she doesn't. I checked thoroughly.

Didn't take very long, did it?

316 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:10:38am
317 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:10:44am

re: #258 Killgore Trout

As long as republicans keep repeating that Bush's problem was his "moderation," well, I don't have much hope for a turnaround.

Bush wasn't a moderate. He was a big government, religious evangelical. And he was pretty darned incompetent, or hired an awful lot of pretty darned incompetent people who screwed a lot of stuff up. He had no clue about the economic meltdown that hit right before the presidential election. He had no clue that FEMA was screwing the pooch after Katrina (didn't get better until LtGen Honore arrived to take charge; yes the military response was outstanding before that, but the civilian FEMA response was embarrassing). He had no clue how to handle the deteriorating situation in Iraq--went around all summer/fall of 2006 campaigning on "staying the course" in Iraq, when that course was going from bad to worse. McCain had been calling for an increase in troops, equipment, and different tactics since late 2004 (and "conservatives" like Limbaugh savaged him for it for years because he dared to criticize Bush.)

But no, Bush's failures were all the MSM's fault.

The GOP won't win if it won't grow up and face facts about what got them here.

318 countrygurl  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:10:55am

re: #308 FurryOldGuyJeans
Yeah, it says at the top of the article that the article is not balanced and invites contributions. I suspect that what I referred to is really true. Wiki is not for serious study, but I think it's good enuf for conversation material.

319 ladycatnip  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:11:17am

#281 LGoPs

You got that right. The politicization of all things started with anyone who felt like a victim, then like a ripple in a pond, just kept going.

My daughter's favorite professor in college was one who made everyone think - actually think about what they believed and what they thought about the world around them. To this day she says no one can figure out what political party he belongs to. Now that's a great teacher.

OTOH, my boys had teachers in high school who couldn't help themselves - all leftists who taught classes that had nothing to do with politics. Their English teacher never wasted an opportunity to bash Bush; somehow when teaching the kids on how to write a good composition, or discussing literature, it all came back to Bush.

320 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:11:31am

re: #288 Occasional Reader


"There is this perception that the new U.S. administration is not interested in the democratization strategy," a senior Lebanese political leader told me. That perception only grows as President Obama calls for an "exit strategy" from Afghanistan and Iraq. Power abhors a vacuum, which the Islamic Republic of Iran is only too happy to fill.

Change!

321 Cygnus  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:11:53am

re: #252 unrealizedviewpoint

You no longer ride the runways at Denver Airport?

You have to be careful there. You could wind up as rather large FOD.

322 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:12:18am

re: #314 Occasional Reader

I don't know, but whenever I see her, [fill in "pistol in my pocket" quote here].

HER ... not YOU!
*rolls eyes*

323 Honorary Yooper  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:12:19am

re: #308 FurryOldGuyJeans

As do I with Wiki. It's a fun place to find some pictures, get a gist of things, but not a serious site for information. I've made some changes over there (to articles not related to politics, religion, etc in anyway) only to find some idiot didn't like them even when backed up with references.

I've also seen too much graffiti on a lot of articles. Some dingbat writes something he thinks is witty in the middle of an otherwise decent article, ruining it.

324 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:12:53am

re: #243 buzzsawmonkey

That's interesting, in that she was abiding by Church teaching by not opting for a (legal) abortion to keep her job. OK, she'd violated such teaching by having had sex outside of marriage, but it still seems pretty tough that her employers did not give her credit for refusing the abortion option.

The local diocese here has a policy that if the diocese wants people to do the right thing, then out-of-wedlock pregnancy cannot be "punished" by ostracism.

I suspect a teacher who provided a poor example to students through an out of wedlock pregnancy may be removed from the classroom.

But students are allowed to continue at school (as long as they do not get married, the idea being that such a situation is not the best possible way to begin a marriage).

At any rate - once the sexual acitivity has taken place leading to the out-of-wedlock pregnancy, it just seems to me that the state of being pregnant is not in itself "sinful" and should never be "punished" in any way.

325 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:13:07am
326 SixDegrees  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #307 Salamantis

That kind of malicious hypocrisy is all too common among puritanical antiabortionists.

My ex-wife had been a US Naval officer before we met in graduate school and married. She had been assigned to public affairs at a post in Italy. She was lonely, and began a relationship with another Naval officer. She used a diaphragm, but it failed her, and she became pregnant. She was also Roman Catholic.

Distraught, she went to her commanding officer, who was also Roman Catholic; he strongly advised her not to have an abortion, but to give it up for adoption there, and he would assist her in any way he could, and she agreed.

As soon as it was too late for her to have an abortion, her commanding officer called her in front of the assembled unit and publicly denounced her as a whore and a strumpet. Meanwhile, other female Navy members who got pregnant were flying to Germany over the weekend and having abortions, and suffering no career or social consequences.

She carried the pregnancy to term, and gave the baby up for adoption. And she left the Navy. And she left the Roman Catholic Church.

Ugh. It makes me shudder to read such a thing.

I'm sure her CO felt that, although the Church was smaller because of her absence, it was also somehow purer. Which is exactly the statement made earlier today by Stephen Moore regarding the shrinkage in GOP membership.

Pure. And Irrelevant.

327 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #317 funky chicken

As long as republicans keep repeating that Bush's problem was his "moderation," well, I don't have much hope for a turnaround.

Bush wasn't a moderate. He was a big government, religious evangelical. And he was pretty darned incompetent, or hired an awful lot of pretty darned incompetent people who screwed a lot of stuff up. He had no clue about the economic meltdown that hit right before the presidential election. He had no clue that FEMA was screwing the pooch after Katrina (didn't get better until LtGen Honore arrived to take charge; yes the military response was outstanding before that, but the civilian FEMA response was embarrassing). He had no clue how to handle the deteriorating situation in Iraq--went around all summer/fall of 2006 campaigning on "staying the course" in Iraq, when that course was going from bad to worse. McCain had been calling for an increase in troops, equipment, and different tactics since late 2004 (and "conservatives" like Limbaugh savaged him for it for years because he dared to criticize Bush.)

But no, Bush's failures were all the MSM's fault.

The GOP won't win if it won't grow up and face facts about what got them here.

And I gotta add the hideous condition of those VA hospitals. That's BushCare, not ObamaCare.

And yeah, I voted for the guy in 2004 because the damn democrats gave me no choice. But the guy really did not do a good job.

328 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:15:02am

re: #313 Salamantis

Yeah, riiight, shuuuure...like in Louisiana...

Tell me why I should have voted FOR any of the other 10 candidates for La Governor that ran against Jindal (notice I said voted FOR them, not AGAINST Jindal because of that one issue)

329 halldor  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:15:10am
We have crony capitalism and green fascism, both rewarding failure.

It's the same in the UK, under Brown. Obama will fail, just as Brown is going to fail soon.

330 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:15:45am

re: #325 buzzsawmonkey

he didn't say he wanted teachers to keep their private lives out of the classroom or that they should be trained to maintain more professional standards of behavior in the classroom. he said single mothers shouldn't be allowed to be teachers.

331 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:16:03am

re: #327 funky chicken

And I gotta add the hideous condition of those VA hospitals. That's BushCare, not ObamaCare.

And yeah, I voted for the guy in 2004 because the damn democrats gave me no choice. But the guy really did not do a good job.

In general it is an example of socialized medicine, both parties are to blame.

332 Twenglish  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:16:12am

Yuck !

Its leaders must embrace its moderates, and its moderates - on everything from taxes to abortion - must stand up for themselves.

what the London Times mean is , in order for the GOP to survive , every member of the GOP has to take lessons from John McCain in kicking the GOP leadership to the curb and reaching across the aisle to Dems who certainly will never reach back .

I think I'm gonna barf now .......

Say where are all the political journalists that are advising Dems to do the same ?

333 Bagua  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:17:30am

re: #329 halldor

It's the same in the UK, under Brown. Obama will fail, just as Brown is going to fail soon.

Much of Blair/Brown's "success" has been due to the lack of a credible opposition, not to mention the lack of a responsible press.

334 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:17:31am

re: #313 Salamantis

Yeah, riiight, shuuuure...like in Louisiana...

Well, the thing is, in Louisiana, the Science Act was put into place, yes, and is considered highly controversial, but from a poll conducted earlier this year, a majority of people polled supported the teaching of Creationism in schools...

So, in essence, perhaps the law was the will of the people, agree with it or not...

Link to the poll: Spring 2009 Louisiana Poll (LSU)

335 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:18:04am

re: #328 sattv4u2

Tell me why I should have voted FOR any of the other 10 candidates for La Governor that ran against Jindal (notice I said voted FOR them, not AGAINST Jindal because of that one issue)

You should have voted for them because they wouldn't have signed a Disco Institute crafted stealth creationism-in-public-schools bill into law.

336 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:18:53am

re: #313 Salamantis

re: #334 tfc3rid

Well, the thing is, in Louisiana, the Science Act was put into place, yes, and is considered highly controversial, but from a poll conducted earlier this year, a majority of people polled supported the teaching of Creationism in schools...

So, in essence, perhaps the law was the will of the people, agree with it or not...

Link to the poll: Spring 2009 Louisiana Poll (LSU)

Not only that, but if Jindal hadn't signed it (vetoed it) the legislature had enough votes to override the veto

337 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:18:54am

Buzzsaw:
BTW: HoosierHoops, I'd like to make it plain that I was not intending to cast any aspersions whatever on you or on anyone else. My objective was merely to stand against a rote condemnation of someone's political position.

None taken my friend..I'm just hanging out on a beautiful day on the deck having a fun time blogging..Today is holiday for our company...
/ok 3 beers but also..but I'm being a really good lizard today..

338 Land Shark  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:19:14am

re: #137 Charles

Yep, that's another idiotic move. After all the progress that was made eradicating and/or containing all those horrific diseases like polio, it's sheer lunacy. If this shit spreads it's a potential public health nightmare.

339 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:19:28am

re: #335 Salamantis

You should have voted for them because they wouldn't have signed a Disco Institute crafted stealth creationism-in-public-schools bill into law.

And they WOULD have voted for far many other things I would abhor!

340 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:20:58am

re: #334 tfc3rid

Well, the thing is, in Louisiana, the Science Act was put into place, yes, and is considered highly controversial, but from a poll conducted earlier this year, a majority of people polled supported the teaching of Creationism in schools...

So, in essence, perhaps the law was the will of the people, agree with it or not...

Link to the poll: Spring 2009 Louisiana Poll (LSU)

So the federal government shouldn't have sent troops in to end school segregation and Jim Crow because they were the will of the people?

Sometimes the will of the people is wrong, and that's why we have a Bill of Rights, to prevent unjust majority tyranny; in the case of cretionism in public schools, the violation is of the 1st Amendment.

341 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:21:03am

re: #338 Land Shark

Yep, that's another idiotic move. After all the progress that was made eradicating and/or containing all those horrific diseases like polio, it's sheer lunacy. If this shit spreads it's a potential public health nightmare.

Let's remember back to 2002 or 2003 that we were stockpiling Smallpox vaccines for use if there were a biological attack... Would someone seriously not get vaccinated?

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:21:17am

re: #307 Salamantis

That kind of malicious hypocrisy is all too common among puritanical antiabortionists...

Damn. That's...one way to make sure you don't have to share the pews of a Sunday morning.

343 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:21:30am

re: #340 Salamantis

So the federal government shouldn't have sent troops in to end school segregation and Jim Crow because they were the will of the people?

Sometimes the will of the people is wrong, and that's why we have a Bill of Rights, to prevent unjust majority tyranny; in the case of cretionism in public schools, the violation is of the 1st Amendment.

Well then the SCOTUS will strike the law down.

344 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:21:32am

re: #334 tfc3rid

Well, the thing is, in Louisiana, the Science Act was put into place, yes, and is considered highly controversial, but from a poll conducted earlier this year, a majority of people polled supported the teaching of Creationism in schools...

So, in essence, perhaps the law was the will of the people, agree with it or not...

Link to the poll: Spring 2009 Louisiana Poll (LSU)

Whether it's the "will of the people" or not, it's wrong to substitute creationist teaching for science.

This has been so little publicized here, I'm not sure that most people know what it means to say that "creationism" will be taught in schools. I don't believe they realize that it is intended to be a substitute for science.

The (dem) politician who introduced this and got it passed with the help of the (rep) governor - neither has done this state any favors whatsoever.

345 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:22:13am
346 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:22:35am

re: #335 Salamantis

You should have voted for them because they wouldn't have signed a Disco Institute crafted stealth creationism-in-public-schools bill into law.

Sala - not sure about that at all.
We know Jindal supported it.
But honestly, I do not recall this as a campaign issue at all, and so there is no telling what the other candidates would have done.

347 Spider Mensch  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:22:36am

her commanding officer called her in front of the assembled unit and publicly denounced her as a whore and a strumpet.re: #307 Salamantis

ummmm...if she didn't head for the legal office or base JAG office she should have..I've seen CO's dismissed for less than that..especially in the more recent P-C military....you don't mention how long ago was this incident?

348 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:22:51am

re: #336 sattv4u2

re: #334 tfc3rid


Not only that, but if Jindal hadn't signed it (vetoed it) the legislature had enough votes to override the veto

If it had passed over his veto, I would have considered voting for him for national office. Now, he will NEVER get my vote. EVER.

349 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:22:53am

re: #340 Salamantis

Listen, don't get me wrong. i do NOT want ID taught in my sons science class
That said, if it IS, I have recourse
A) put him in another school
or
B) teach him AT HOME that ID is NOT science, and show him that thw earth was created and/ or formed more than 6,000 years ago

350 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:23:11am

re: #301 Kenneth

{reine} How are you doing today?

Kenneth - you still here?
doing fine.
How about you?

351 ointmentfly  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:23:44am

re: #312 Land Shark

I agree that the GOP did itself in, but how could that explain a rebublican voting for Obama? That has never made sense to me. If somebody is a true conservative, you don't pull the lever for the total opposite of what you believe because the party has lost its way a bit....

352 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:24:48am

re: #348 Salamantis

If it had passed over his veto, I would have considered voting for him for national office. Now, he will NEVER get my vote. EVER.

Fine, that is your personal choice and conviction.

While I don't really know much about him, I still contend that at least he's not a socialist...

353 spudly  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:24:57am

The "social issues" are really what? Abortion, creationism, and gay marriage?

Gay marriage is easy, the republicans should be clear that they are for civil unions. They should also make it clear that some republicans are for gay marriage—and that's fine—as long as is is legislated, not decided in the courts. Note that the only difference would be semantic (marriage vs civil union, personally I don't care in the least, but the former might help keep the religious in the coalition. Durable, reciprocal power of attorney, etc, from the County Clerk for $25 or whatever it costs these days. That's my take, I'm fine with same sex marriage (I'd vote "yes" on a ballot) as long as it is VOTED ON, not legislated from the bench, I bet many conservatives would as well.

Creationism... ugh. Morons. They need to see that the bigger picture is that they are trying to make State-sanctioned religion, with is a bad precedent (particularly with the ROP in the wings). There is that great video of Reagan in 1964, and I noticed at some point he mentioned in passing something to the effect that the Earth was billions of years old. You don't need to be a young-earth idiot to be conservative.

Abortion? The reality is that most Americans are in BOTH camps depending how you ask the question. Reasonable (and secular) people can certainly admit that abortion late-term (past viability) is clearly wrong, period ("life of the mother" is a canard at a certain point since the procedure would be invasive enough to be threatening on its own (according to my pro-choice, surgeon wife)). The "no restrictions almost until the cord is cut" ultra-left is wrong here, and the majority think so.

The religious side against even RU486 is equally untenable (and unpopular). Clearly no-late terms without a court order (since they are so very rare anyway) would be enough to be widely popular—defined perhaps by viability. As fiscal conservatives, they can remain against any US government funding of this completely elective procedure, however. Parental notification is also perfectly fine, my kids couldn't be given an aspirin without permission from us, why should they be allowed a surgical procedure?

354 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:25:21am

re: #343 tfc3rid

Well then the SCOTUS will strike the law down.

And bankrupt the state school system defending it, until property taxes are raised to cover the diff. Meanwhile, students and teachers suffer.

355 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:26:05am

re: #348 Salamantis

If it had passed over his veto, I would have considered voting for him for national office. Now, he will NEVER get my vote. EVER.

So if you go to a restaurant for their great Prime Rib dinner, but they tell you with the dinner you get rolls (which you like) and mashed potatoes (which you like ) and salad (which you like) and asparagus (which you HATE) you'll NEVER go there and order the great Prime Rib again?

356 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:26:30am

re: #354 Salamantis

And bankrupt the state school system defending it, until property taxes are raised to cover the diff. Meanwhile, students and teachers suffer.

Well, that's the process... Wish it were cheaper and would have less of an impact but that is the system we have in place.

357 Danny  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:26:41am

re: #273 Occasional Reader

Charles, I'm very sorry to hear that. It's definitely a wise move, not posting your normal routes.

If you haven't already done so, you should consider concealed carry (much as I hate to say it).

x2, except that I don't hate to say it. In fact, I strongly recommend that everyone get a CCL, even if you don't receive death threats. Anyway, the LGF biking posts were always my favorites.

Idea: only post pics and info that don't reveal anything useful to the assholes making threats.

358 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:26:41am

re: #347 Spider Mensch

her commanding officer called her in front of the assembled unit and publicly denounced her as a whore and a strumpet.

ummmm...if she didn't head for the legal office or base JAG office she should have..I've seen CO's dismissed for less than that..especially in the more recent P-C military....you don't mention how long ago was this incident?

More than 30 years ago.

359 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:26:44am

re: #334 tfc3rid

Well, the thing is, in Louisiana, the Science Act was put into place, yes, and is considered highly controversial, but from a poll conducted earlier this year, a majority of people polled supported the teaching of Creationism in schools...

So, in essence, perhaps the law was the will of the people, agree with it or not...

Link to the poll: Spring 2009 Louisiana Poll (LSU)

Yep. I don't like Jindal for POTUS, but as governor of Louisiana he's a good fit with his constituents. We'll see if this controversy loses Jindal his job, but I doubt it will.

360 Kenneth  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:27:10am

re: #350 reine.de.tout

I'm doing fine thanks.

361 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:27:22am

re: #359 funky chicken

Yep. I don't like Jindal for POTUS, but as governor of Louisiana he's a good fit with his constituents. We'll see if this controversy loses Jindal his job, but I doubt it will.

I had read that his job approval rating is back over 65% in LA.

362 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:27:30am

On the abortion issue, Republicans should take the view that it should be left up to the states to decide simply because that is the way the Republic is constructed. We should be neither pro-choice nor pro-life on the federal level. We should be pro-constitution.

Roe v. Wade may or may not be good policy (I think it is good policy, but that is besides the point). But what it has come to stand for is unacceptable -- unrestricted judicial fiat law. The courts must become "the least dangerous branch" again.

363 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:27:46am

re: #349 sattv4u2

Listen, don't get me wrong. i do NOT want ID taught in my sons science class
That said, if it IS, I have recourse
A) put him in another school
or
B) teach him AT HOME that ID is NOT science, and show him that thw earth was created and/ or formed more than 6,000 years ago

It shouldn't have to come to that.

364 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:28:11am

re: #362 Cato

Sadly, not going to happen with the likely new justice appointments...

365 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:29:14am

re: #363 Salamantis

It shouldn't have to come to that.

But it has. You've chosen to eliminate a candidate over ONE issue (asparagus) which could give the election to the candidate that gives you EVERYTHING you hate

366 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:29:41am
367 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:30:40am

re: #363 Salamantis

It shouldn't have to come to that.

Probably not but as a 20+ year Catholic school educated person, I sat through science class where this was the norm. However, also having the creation issue taught in religion class made it obvious the story of creation was developed to teach the Jews in captivity of the almighty power of God and that everything he created was good.

368 realwest  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:30:54am

re: #335 Salamantis
Hi Sal - sorry I'm late to THIS thread! But the problem I have with your "You should have voted for them because they wouldn't have signed a Disco Institute crafted stealth creationism-in-public-schools bill into law" makes that a single issue voting. I haven't got a clue as to what the Dems who were running against Jihdal stood for; they may all have been just swell. But as much as I don't want ID taught in public schools there are other issues that concern me too.
And frankly MY Republican candidate, Rudy Giuliani, probably won't run again, although he's not for teaching ID, and he is for fiscal restraint, welfare to work, lower taxes, individual saftety and other matters dear to my heart, the fact that he is weak on Gun Control kills him with a lot of the Right. And of course his personal life kills him with some folks I'd consider FAR right.
I'm afraid to say it, but it's this single issue voting that has killed the Republican Party (and a lot of that single issue voting is coming from the so called "religious" right.
We (I am a Republican) used to believe in Personal Freedom. Individual liberty. Smaller Government. Lower Taxes. Free markets. Defense of Country. But then too many Republicans get caught up in single issues. As I said, I think Rudy would have been a great president, if the Republicans had nominated him.
I wish I had an answer to the overall problem with Republicans like Jim Demint who I think honestly feels it's a big tent if we exclude gays, single women, etc etc etc. To me that's a pup tent. I do know, however, that Obama is going to lose his popularity once his economic chickens come home to roost - hell cap and trade will help the GOP in PA, OH, MI, all the rust belt states where coal and steel used to be king.
But the single issue voter seems to find a way into Obama's tent just fine, so maybe I'm wrong about that - but I sure hope not.

369 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:31:02am

re: #355 sattv4u2

So if you go to a restaurant for their great Prime Rib dinner, but they tell you with the dinner you get rolls (which you like) and mashed potatoes (which you like ) and salad (which you like) and asparagus (which you HATE) you'll NEVER go there and order the great Prime Rib again?

Bad analogy. If the great prime rib comes basted with strychnine, I'm never gonna order it in the first fucking place.

370 Land Shark  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:32:05am

re: #351 ointmentfly

I agree. I'm still baffled by that. I have no answer, other than they got fooled by Obama. As frustrated as I am with the GOP, I can't handle the Democrats.

I was planning to vote for a "third party candidate" when it became evident McCain was going to get the nod in '08. But the more I learned about Obama, the more appalled I was by the man and who he really is and decided to vote for the only guy with a shot to beat him, McCain. Obviously, a lot of people didn't do their homework and bought into the false picture of Obama painted by the MSM.

371 Zimriel  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:32:12am

I think we can safely class my last post impugning the Times' motives as a "meltdown". I am embarrassed that it came out of my head.

I apologise for it and it deserves deletion.

I'm somewhat amazed my account wasn't blocked.

372 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:32:14am

re: #368 realwest

Realwest - good points.
In Louisiana, the ID bill was introduced by a DEM.
And I do not recall this being a campaign issue, so we don't know what any of the other candidates would have done.

373 Zimriel  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:32:44am

I'm going to quit posting here for awhile.

374 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:32:49am

re: #364 tfc3rid


There is not going to be a change of balance on the court. Souter voted most oftern with Ruth Bader Ginsberg, not exactly the most conservative member of SCOTUS.

375 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:33:12am

re: #369 Salamantis

Bad analogy. If the great prime rib comes basted with strychnine, I'm never gonna order it in the first fucking place.

It's a perfect analogy. That one issue does NOT poison all the rest!

Tell me how it poisons lower taxes?
Tell me how it poisons smaller gov't?
Tell me how it poisons late term abortions?

376 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:33:41am
377 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:34:16am

re: #349 sattv4u2

Listen, don't get me wrong. i do NOT want ID taught in my sons science class
That said, if it IS, I have recourse
A) put him in another school
or
B) teach him AT HOME that ID is NOT science, and show him that thw earth was created and/ or formed more than 6,000 years ago

Right. Those of us with kids in school deal with this kind of issue every day. My daughter's science teacher showed them Al Gore's idiotic movie last year, presented as settled science. I had several discussions with her about it.

This year my daughter's reading teacher brought anti-Palin and anti-McCain political cartoons to "teach" the class with every day in October. She told them that she just couldn't find any political cartoons that either supported the republican candidates or criticized Obama. What a crock of crap.

ID/creationism is stupid, but it's just as easily refuted at home as Al Gore hysteria or leftist political indoctrination.

378 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:34:31am

re: #375 sattv4u2


It kinda does poison it. It means there is a lot of room for irrationalism.

379 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:34:58am

re: #374 Cato

There is not going to be a change of balance on the court. Souter voted most oftern with Ruth Bader Ginsberg, not exactly the most conservative member of SCOTUS.

Agreed but the folks to be nominated will, most likely, be more in the vein of Stevens and Ginsburg, which will still shape the court further down the road...

Say Obama gets a second term and, say, something happens to Scalia. He's not getting any younger... And then, forget it...

380 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:35:13am

re: #365 sattv4u2

But it has. You've chosen to eliminate a candidate over ONE issue (asparagus) which could give the election to the candidate that gives you EVERYTHING you hate

There's one damn thing I hate that another candidate won't give me (or I won't vote for that one, either); fuckin' madrassas for public schools.

381 realwest  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:36:40am

re: #372 reine.de.tout
Thanks reine - I didn't know that that ID teaching bill was introduced by a Dem!
But sad though it makes me, I gotta go again, more chores and all to do.
I will say Thank You to Charles who DOES allow folks to debate issues unlike the yahoos at other blogs!

Hope y'all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

382 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:37:02am

re: #366 Iron Fist

Actually, unless they changed the law under Clinton, abortion is illegal under the UCMJ. Her CO advising her not to have one under those circumstances, well, what else could he say? Go ahead and break the law and I'll look the other way? it doesn't work that way.

If she had simply snuck off and done it on the quite, nothing would have likely happened to her. but once it was out and about, there wasn't really any different advice the guy could give her. That doesn't excuse his boorish and unprofessional acts denouncing her, of course. That was uncalled for.

I have to admit that I am curious. Does she now, after all the years that have passed, still wish she'd made the different choice and had the abortion? That's pretty private, and I'll understand if it isn't answered, but I am curious about it.

Yep. She still curses the day that she took that vicious bastard's advice.

383 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:37:06am
384 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:39:57am

re: #367 tfc3rid

Probably not but as a 20+ year Catholic school educated person, I sat through science class where this was the norm. However, also having the creation issue taught in religion class made it obvious the story of creation was developed to teach the Jews in captivity of the almighty power of God and that everything he created was good.

It's friggin' SCIENCE class; religion doesn't BELONG THERE! At least not in a public school. Parochial schools are private, and can make their own rules. People choose what they offer; they pay extra to attend them, instead of having to pay extra NOT to attend them, as is the case with public schools.

385 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:41:35am

re: #384 Salamantis

Right... That was my point... As a long time Catholic school student I had the ability to get both issues in science but one in religion which allowed me to understand one was a theological issue and one a scientific issue.

386 ointmentfly  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:41:44am

re: #370 Land Shark

McCain was another in a long line of weak GOP nominations. His finance reform bill almost single handedly beat the GOP by consolidating every loony liberal group into a huge cash cow... And putting up the McCain (old washington) against Obama and his change message was a real poor choice. I still think Romney would have won especially given the economy.

387 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:42:53am

re: #386 ointmentfly

I hear ya but I think once Obama was nominated, there was no way he was going to lose...

388 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:43:13am

re: #368 realwest

Hi Sal - sorry I'm late to THIS thread! But the problem I have with your "You should have voted for them because they wouldn't have signed a Disco Institute crafted stealth creationism-in-public-schools bill into law" makes that a single issue voting. I haven't got a clue as to what the Dems who were running against Jihdal stood for; they may all have been just swell. But as much as I don't want ID taught in public schools there are other issues that concern me too.
And frankly MY Republican candidate, Rudy Giuliani, probably won't run again, although he's not for teaching ID, and he is for fiscal restraint, welfare to work, lower taxes, individual saftety and other matters dear to my heart, the fact that he is weak on Gun Control kills him with a lot of the Right. And of course his personal life kills him with some folks I'd consider FAR right.
I'm afraid to say it, but it's this single issue voting that has killed the Republican Party (and a lot of that single issue voting is coming from the so called "religious" right.
We (I am a Republican) used to believe in Personal Freedom. Individual liberty. Smaller Government. Lower Taxes. Free markets. Defense of Country. But then too many Republicans get caught up in single issues. As I said, I think Rudy would have been a great president, if the Republicans had nominated him.
I wish I had an answer to the overall problem with Republicans like Jim Demint who I think honestly feels it's a big tent if we exclude gays, single women, etc etc etc. To me that's a pup tent. I do know, however, that Obama is going to lose his popularity once his economic chickens come home to roost - hell cap and trade will help the GOP in PA, OH, MI, all the rust belt states where coal and steel used to be king.
But the single issue voter seems to find a way into Obama's tent just fine, so maybe I'm wrong about that - but I sure hope not.

Fucking up our nation's and our childrens' future by religiously indoctrinating them into sectarian dogmas when they're supposed to be getting taught science, just so they'll grow up to be good little fundie voters and elect repressive theocrats, is a cast iron deal breaker for me.

389 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:43:45am

re: #388 Salamantis

Fucking up our nation's and our childrens' future by religiously indoctrinating them into sectarian dogmas when they're supposed to be getting taught science, just so they'll grow up to be good little fundie voters and elect repressive theocrats, is a cast iron deal breaker for me.

Is that the purpose?

390 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:44:45am

re: #388 Salamantis

re: #389 tfc3rid

Is that the purpose?

I'm sure it is,, if not 100% at least the majority. But like I stated upthread, I'M the parent and I have recourse

391 h0mi  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:45:35am
But in the process it is undermining the campaign that Republicans should be fighting on similar themes but on a far larger scale - to rein in Mr Obama’s fondness for big government whenever the costs are unsustainable or the benefits moot.

It's not undermining this campaign by rooting out Republicans who are unwilling to vote against Obama's platform, thus providing sufficient cover for "They are both the same" or "this was bipartisan" or further blurring of the 2 parties. The GOP has to stand for something... I'd prefer we dismiss the social conservative pet issues for a change instead of constantly giving in on economic/fiscal issues.

392 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:45:41am

re: #390 sattv4u2

re: #389 tfc3rid


I'm sure it is,, if not 100% at least the majority. But like I stated upthread, I'M the parent and I have recourse

I hear ya but I also think that there are a lot of parents who don't care and who wouldn't take as active a role...

I can see that therein lies a big problem.

393 quickjustice  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:46:19am

re: #215 funky chicken

I'm still struggling with whether DHS should have been created at all. The incumbent hasn't yet established a track record. Chertoff probably did the best he could with a difficult situation. No one has performed well in that job.

394 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:47:18am

re: #393 quickjustice

I'm still struggling with whether DHS should have been created at all. The incumbent hasn't yet established a track record. Chertoff probably did the best he could with a difficult situation. No one has performed well in that job.

I am not thrilled about the additional layers of bureaucracy but I think brining all of those groups within the Federal Government together was needed. The folks selected to lead... Different story...

395 Rexatosis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:47:19am

The GOP has been, since Reagan, a broad coalition of fiscal conservatives, national defense advocates (or foreign policy conservatives), and social conservatives. Not all these elements have a stong play in all areas of the country (ex. social conservativism in NE) but a combination of two of these three elements is needed to win. In the Northeast the abandonment by the GOP of fiscal conservative principles has obliterated the party by removing the strongest leg of the GOP stool here. Abandoning fiscal conservativism while also advocating the expulsion of social conservatives is the quickest way to turn the GOP not into the Tories of Britain but the Liberal Party of Britain which is exactly what the left wants.

396 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:47:22am

re: #392 tfc3rid

I hear ya but I also think that there are a lot of parents who don't care and who wouldn't take as active a role...

I can see that therein lies a big problem.

And you think those parents that do NOT take an active role are prone to have kids that turn to hardcore RELIGIONS!?!?!

If anything, they turn AWAY from ANY religion

397 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:47:42am

re: #375 sattv4u2

It's a perfect analogy. That one issue does NOT poison all the rest!

Tell me how it poisons lower taxes?
Tell me how it poisons smaller gov't?
Tell me how it poisons late term abortions?

It poison's our children's and this nation's future. Hamstringing our economic well-being in the bioscience field, and hampering our ability to quickly and efficiently respond to a bioweapons terror attack, not to mention programming the next generation of voters for theocracy, kills our nation just like strychnine will kill a diner, no matter what kinda gravy you heap on it, or how many side dishes you add.

398 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:48:06am

re: #396 sattv4u2

And you think those parents that do NOT take an active role are prone to have kids that turn to hardcore RELIGIONS!?!?!

If anything, they turn AWAY from ANY religion

True... Most kids I know that I teach in my CCD class never return to Church after Confirmation....

399 yesandno  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:48:16am

re: #362 Cato

On the abortion issue, Republicans should take the view that it should be left up to the states to decide simply because that is the way the Republic is constructed. We should be neither pro-choice nor pro-life on the federal level. We should be pro-constitution.

Roe v. Wade may or may not be good policy (I think it is good policy, but that is besides the point). But what it has come to stand for is unacceptable -- unrestricted judicial fiat law. The courts must become "the least dangerous branch" again.

While I do not agree with you about it being "good policy", I do agree with your premise that it should be a matter for the states and not the feds. The Judiciary should be restricted from making law. The basis of the Republic should be respected.

400 ointmentfly  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:48:31am

re: #383 Iron Fist

My gut tells me that Obama won because middle aged women emphatically went to the polls for him. I don't know if it was just some emotional issue because of the Iraq war toll or plain old jungle fever (I stood in a 5M house with an older female client that said " aren't you sick of voting for old white guys"). I just responded with raised eyebrows....

401 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:51:40am

re: #397 Salamantis

To add to that, as a not very religious individual, I find the idea of teaching what is essentially a religious doctirine in public schools terrifying.

402 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:52:06am

re: #397 Salamantis

As stated, I agree 100% that ID should NOT be in public school science classes. But lets do an excercise
Lets say in Scool "A" there are 100 kids in a science class that are taught ID as well as Darwinism as theories. How many of those kids
1) retain any of that info upon gradutaion
2) use any of that info upon gradutaion
3) were pre-conceieved to beleive in one or the other from lessons at home and now change (i.e. 'I always beleived in evolution, but now because of that class I beleive that the earth is only 6,000 years old and Genisis is 100% accurate)

403 SixDegrees  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:53:44am

re: #367 tfc3rid

Probably not but as a 20+ year Catholic school educated person, I sat through science class where this was the norm. However, also having the creation issue taught in religion class made it obvious the story of creation was developed to teach the Jews in captivity of the almighty power of God and that everything he created was good.

Interesting. The Catholic high school I attended taught hard-core evolutionary theory in biology class. The biology instructor had a PhD in the topic, and was also a priest; he went on to become the school's principle for several years after I left.

I've never run across any Catholic clergy who argue against evolution or an ancient earth. The Church's position on science in general is that it investigates and reveals yet another facet of God's creation.

404 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:54:33am

The problem with the idea of leaving abortion regulations up to individual states is simple -- the social conservatives will never agree to this, because it leaves a very wide loophole open. Women who need or want abortions can simply travel to a state where it's allowed.

That's why social conservatives are going in exactly the opposite direction from states' rights on this issue, and calling for a Constitutional amendment to ban abortion on the federal level.

405 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:56:27am

re: #404 Charles

Women who need or want abortions can simply travel to a state where it's allowed. That is exactly what happened in Massachusetts years ago. "We' ( mass taxpayers) subsidized abortions for people from every neighboring state

406 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:56:31am

re: #402 sattv4u2

As stated, I agree 100% that ID should NOT be in public school science classes. But lets do an excercise
Lets say in Scool "A" there are 100 kids in a science class that are taught ID as well as Darwinism as theories. How many of those kids
1) retain any of that info upon gradutaion
2) use any of that info upon gradutaion
3) were pre-conceieved to beleive in one or the other from lessons at home and now change (i.e. 'I always beleived in evolution, but now because of that class I beleive that the earth is only 6,000 years old and Genisis is 100% accurate)

Sharmuta has a link to an article that shows that kids that are taught creationism in school are a lot more likely to reject evolution in college, with all of the negative ramifications that this bodes for them in the bioscience fields, and dire consequencesd for a nation that could suffer greatly due to their absence from those fields.

407 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:56:56am

re: #403 SixDegrees

Interesting. The Catholic high school I attended taught hard-core evolutionary theory in biology class. The biology instructor had a PhD in the topic, and was also a priest; he went on to become the school's principle for several years after I left.

I've never run across any Catholic clergy who argue against evolution or an ancient earth. The Church's position on science in general is that it investigates and reveals yet another facet of God's creation.

Correct... Catholic clergy do not argue with against evolution at all...

408 ointmentfly  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:57:23am

re: #404 Charles
Also true that the left does not want to deal with the slippery slope if states were allowed to decide. It will always be a federal court issue. Forever.

409 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:58:48am

re: #404 Charles

They might be advocating it but there is no way the onerous process of amending the Constitution would lead to that reality occurring.

410 [deleted]  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:59:00am
411 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:59:27am

re: #406 Salamantis

Sharmuta has a link to an article that shows that kids that are taught creationism in school are a lot more likely to reject evolution in college, with all of the negative ramifications that this bodes for them in the bioscience fields, and dire consequencesd for a nation that could suffer greatly due to their absence from those fields.

Well then they will miss out on the $$ in the bioscience fields... Tough break...

412 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 11:59:49am

re: #403 SixDegrees

Interesting. The Catholic high school I attended taught hard-core evolutionary theory in biology class. The biology instructor had a PhD in the topic, and was also a priest; he went on to become the school's principle for several years after I left.

I've never run across any Catholic clergy who argue against evolution or an ancient earth. The Church's position on science in general is that it investigates and reveals yet another facet of God's creation.

I went to Catholic schools grades 1-12, as did both my younger and older sister ( a total of 5 differnt schools). Not once in ANY science class were any of us taught anything but evelutionary theory
Now ,, qualifier ,, We were in school from the early 50's through the late 70's. But I have neices / nephews in catholic schools today that are NOT taught ID

413 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:01:05pm

re: #411 tfc3rid

Well then they will miss out on the $$ in the bioscience fields... Tough break...

And we could miss out on the bright mind that can figure out how to respond to a bioweapons attack before we all die of the disease.

414 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:02:11pm

re: #413 Salamantis

And we could miss out on the bright mind that can figure out how to respond to a bioweapons attack before we all die of the disease.

Sadly then, it is what it is...

I still maintain that if people are curious enough, they will learn the truth.

415 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:03:00pm

re: #414 tfc3rid

Why should they be curious about something they already 'know' is wrong?

416 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:03:57pm

re: #413 Salamantis

And we could miss out on the bright mind that can figure out how to respond to a bioweapons attack before we all die of the disease.

If that "BRIGHT MIND" cannot logically and scientifically figure out that universe wasn't created less than 6,000 years ago, ,,,,,,,,,,

I'll leave it at that !

417 ointmentfly  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:04:03pm

re: #410 Iron Fist
The unfortunate part is that, and I firmly believe this, Obama is simply a puppet. He is a fantastic orator, but he does not have the knowledge or the leadership experience to captain this ship. Therefore he might have the final word, but I will bet my eyes one of his braintrust posse gave it to him. And that is group of people to be feared....

418 nyc redneck  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:04:14pm

'moderate' mccain did not have a chance against leftist o who did reveal his
commie tendencies but also invoked the name reagan and lincoln to deceive who he really was. he got alot of votes like that.
mccain was just blowing in the wind acting like a reach across the aisle fool. no one respected him. he was such a lump of nothing to be proud of.
moderates are fledgling leftists to true conservatives.

if the left is hollering abt. how we should be to win, i'll really question their motives. we should not look to them for ideas.
right now we should be focusing on the socialism o is bringing. we should be ruthlessly exposing it, and offering alternatives.
we need to educate the citizens of this country to what is in store for us w/
big gov't spending on all the wrong things.

419 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:04:33pm

re: #415 Altermite

Why should they be curious about something they already 'know' is wrong?

Because they might actually be behind the times when it comes to life in higher education... I know where I went to college, a person would be laughed out of the room if they did not believe in evolution...

420 experiencedtraveller  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:04:40pm

re: #382 Salamantis

Wow. Very sad story. Thank you for sharing it. I hope the mother can have some comfort knowing she saved an innocent life at great cost to her own.

421 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:06:33pm

re: #416 sattv4u2

If that "BRIGHT MIND" cannot logically and scientifically figure out that universe wasn't created less than 6,000 years ago, ,,,,,,,,,,

I'll leave it at that !

The point is that once indoctrinated into creationist dogma, the kid is much more likely to never even TRY to figure it out...

422 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:08:33pm

re: #421 Salamantis

The point is that once indoctrinated into creationist dogma, the kid is much more likely to never even TRY to figure it out...

Sounds like how I portray folks who get their news from the MSM... They eat it like pablum but if they did a little bit of their own research, they would actually learn a thing or two and start questioning it...

423 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:10:27pm

re: #421 Salamantis

The point is that once indoctrinated into creationist dogma, the kid is much more likely to never even TRY to figure it out...

No,, the point is no matter WHAT religious dogma a person beleives in, he/ she will or will not become a scientist, a fireman, a ballarina, a salesperson
Are you telling me there are no athiest doctors? No Catholic scientists? No Jewish Dentists? No Baptist engineers?

424 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:11:41pm

re: #419 tfc3rid

That sort of thing happens here too. They usually just leave/don't bring it up again.

I had a professor in my first biology class who started the class with a lecture on the problems with creationism. He made it very clear that if you did not understand the basics evolution, you had no business being a biology major, or a pre-med major, for that matter.
A number of people left his class at that point.
These were students at an excellent undergraduate program, several of whom planned on going into healthcare.

425 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:12:39pm

re: #422 tfc3rid

Sounds like how I portray folks who get their news from the MSM... They eat it like pablum but if they did a little bit of their own research, they would actually learn a thing or two and start questioning it...

Bingo.

Do you now see why I'm so dead set against creationst theocrats being permitted to shoehorn their pet memetic filters into the naive and trusting young minds of other peoples' kids in public schools?

426 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:14:18pm

re: #423 sattv4u2

No,, the point is no matter WHAT religious dogma a person beleives in, he/ she will or will not become a scientist, a fireman, a ballarina, a salesperson
Are you telling me there are no athiest doctors? No Catholic scientists? No Jewish Dentists? No Baptist engineers?

See my post below yours. I saw students leave my into biology course and thus the pre-med program at my school once it was made clear that they wouldn't pass without understanding evolution. A number of these students were plenty smart, and could have made it. But they refused to accept evolution as a fact.

427 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:15:38pm

re: #423 sattv4u2

No,, the point is no matter WHAT religious dogma a person beleives in, he/ she will or will not become a scientist, a fireman, a ballarina, a salesperson
Are you telling me there are no athiest doctors? No Catholic scientists? No Jewish Dentists? No Baptist engineers?

Yopu're gonna have a hard time finding competent creationist bioscientists, because they reject the evolutionary paradigm on the basis of which such fields are organized.

428 Cato  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #404 Charles

That requires a constitutional amendment. They will NEVER get that. They should realize that and take what they can get.

429 pittrader1988  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:16:56pm

re: #4 SlartyBartfast

I agree. I think along with creationism, nazi's and global warming, LGF should take on bias in the media.

It has always been said that the media is the fourth estate. It keeps the govt honest. There is such a double standard, that the stuff LGF rails about cannot be reported on sensibly if the media isn't honest with itself.

In Journalism school, they don't teach them to be reporters. They teach them to be little marxists.

430 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:17:37pm

re: #427 Salamantis

Yopu're gonna have a hard time finding competent creationist bioscientists, because they reject the evolutionary paradigm on the basis of which such fields are organized.

And therein lies the rub.

I wouldn't be looking for a "competent creationist bioscientists". I WOULD be looking for a competent bioscientists. Or better than 'competent"

431 Land Shark  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:17:53pm

re: #410 Iron Fist

Not to mention the attempts to portray anyone who wouldn't vote for Obama as a racist.

432 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:18:36pm

re: #430 sattv4u2

And therein lies the rub.

I wouldn't be looking for a "competent creationist bioscientists". I WOULD be looking for a competent bioscientists. Or better than 'competent"

And they will be harder to find because of creationist indoctrination thinning the candidate field.

433 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:19:14pm

re: #430 sattv4u2

And therein lies the rub.

I wouldn't be looking for a "competent creationist bioscientists". I WOULD be looking for a competent bioscientists. Or better than 'competent"

True... Well I am an Environmental Engineer working on a project on Climate change and I think it's a load of crap... LOL Think how damn confused I am!

434 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:20:16pm

re: #432 Salamantis

And they will be harder to find because of creationist indoctrination thinning the candidate field.

But yet, possibly pouring more people into the field because of the higher pay associated with it...

There are plenty of places in this country (Northeast and West Coast for sure) where Creationism is laughed out of the room and not on anyone's radar.

435 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:21:22pm

re: #426 Altermite

that's their loss.

my kids hear a lot of more offensive stuff in school than ID. I have a master's in biochem, undergrad microbiology, so I'm no fan of creationism/ID. It's crap.

However, Bobby Jindal isn't a risk to my children's education or science knowledge. If the people of Louisiana like the job he's doing as governor, well, good for them.

Federalism is a bit of a 2 edged sword, but I'm OK with in overall.

And parents who oppose the teaching of ID/creationism are pretty likely to discuss it with their kids from here on out if they see evidence that it is being taught. It's kind of like how I watch to see if my kids are getting leftist political indoctrination (and YES they do) and Al Gore hysteria (again, YES they do).

It's part of sending kids to a government school. If you don't want your kids learning the government's approved curriculum, you send the kids to private school.

436 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:23:31pm

re: #434 tfc3rid

But yet, possibly pouring more people into the field because of the higher pay associated with it...

There are plenty of places in this country (Northeast and West Coast for sure) where Creationism is laughed out of the room and not on anyone's radar.

But sometimes the mind we need might be the very mind we don't get in a field - with catastrophic consequences, if that turns out to be the one mind that could have figured out how to counter a bioweapons terror attack before millions die.

437 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:24:27pm

Oh, and my scientific training tells me that this is insane:

[Link: www3.signonsandiego.com...]

Tijuanans with free time flood to cross border
UNION-TRIBUNE
10:27 a.m. May 4, 2009

People waiting to cross into the United States at the San Ysidro port of entry encountered unusually long lines Monday morning, pushing wait times up to three hours.

Monday is the first weekday in Baja California where all non-essential businesses were closed by order of the federal goverment, which is trying to reduce the spread of the H1N1 flu that has led to at least 2,500 suspected cases and 101 confirmed deaths.

The Baja California government has confirmed 11 cases of the flu in the state.

With no work or school, many Tijuanans may have decided to cross the border to shop or engage in other recreational activity.

Local traffic reports estimated that around 400 vehicles were waiting to cross per lane, and approximately 900 people were waiting in the pedestrian lanes. The lines of cars stretched to Second Street in downtown, a volume of traffic that usually occurs around the Christmas holiday shopping.

Only essential businesses and government agencies remain open, including public safety and fire departments, medical facilities, airport, the port, supermarkets, pharmacies and banks.

Vincent Bond, a spokesman for the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, said inspectors were doing routine screenings Monday morning.

“We aren't doing anything differently,” he said. “It is just a lot of cars.”

438 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:25:14pm

re: #435 funky chicken

that's their loss.

my kids hear a lot of more offensive stuff in school than ID. I have a master's in biochem, undergrad microbiology, so I'm no fan of creationism/ID. It's crap.

However, Bobby Jindal isn't a risk to my children's education or science knowledge. If the people of Louisiana like the job he's doing as governor, well, good for them.

Federalism is a bit of a 2 edged sword, but I'm OK with in overall.

And parents who oppose the teaching of ID/creationism are pretty likely to discuss it with their kids from here on out if they see evidence that it is being taught. It's kind of like how I watch to see if my kids are getting leftist political indoctrination (and YES they do) and Al Gore hysteria (again, YES they do).

It's part of sending kids to a government school. If you don't want your kids learning the government's approved curriculum, you send the kids to private school.

The government's approved curriculum should not violate the 1st Amendment by teaching religious dogma in public school science class.

439 tfc3rid  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:27:39pm

re: #438 Salamantis

The government's approved curriculum should not violate the 1st Amendment by teaching religious dogma in public school science class.

It should not and as I mentioned earlier the remedy to fight it is going through the Court system, which I think will surely find that is the case...

440 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:28:13pm

re: #436 Salamantis

But sometimes the mind we need might be the very mind we don't get in a field - with catastrophic consequences, if that turns out to be the one mind that could have figured out how to counter a bioweapons terror attack before millions die.

And thats due to many reasons. Car accidental death,,, Relocation (having to move someplace where there is NOT a job in the field) ,, Better opportunity in another field...

It doesn't happen just BECAUSE the mind was turned off of science due to ID

And again , I state categorically that i do NOT want ID taught in public scholl science class

441 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:29:25pm

re: #440 sattv4u2

And thats due to many reasons. Car accidental death,,, Relocation (having to move someplace where there is NOT a job in the field) ,, Better opportunity in another field...

It doesn't happen just BECAUSE the mind was turned off of science due to ID

And again , I state categorically that i do NOT want ID taught in public scholl science class

Why add yet another reason why that mind might not be available?

442 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:30:03pm

re: #441 Salamantis

For the same reason that you're portraying it as THE reason

443 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:31:58pm

re: #442 sattv4u2

For the same reason that you're portraying it as THE reason

I never said it was the ONLY reason. But you cannot credibly deny that it could very well be A reason.

444 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:34:28pm

re: #443 Salamantis

I never said it was the ONLY reason. But you cannot credibly deny that it could very well be A reason.

No,, you never said it was the ONLY reason,, but you never entertained any others

I don't deny that it COULD be a reason, yet I doubt it. If a mind was that bright and already had a penchant for science, they would take the ID info, take the evolution info, take all the other info and do what bright young inquiring minds do

LAUGH at and reject the stupid theory!

445 Gretchen  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:34:45pm

I must be the only one who can't figure out the claim the Republicans became too right wing. The stance on abortion remains unchanged. Stance on gay marriage, unchanged, and the same stance the Democrats CLAIM to have now, McCain's statements and Obama's statements were nearly identical to Ms. California. Democrats have made health insurance and abortion "rights" along with a whole host of other "rights". The liberal courts and press have become unapologetic, and while they have been liberal for a while, I can't remember all out tingle up the leg admissions as such. There is a smattering of Creationist fringe in the Republican party, but the Democrats have made global warming a religion, as well as governement funding of abortion and embryonic stem cell research and demonize opponents who find scientific fault.

Republicans went wrong when they began ballooning the size of government and stopped standing up for themselves. They have been bullied by the press and the left too long.

Oh and I wanted to puke when Spector claimed Kemp would have lived if not for the evil Republicans. I guess he believes the Obamasiah will cure cancer, too.

446 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:37:40pm

re: #445 Gretchen

I must be the only one who can't figure out the claim the Republicans became too right wing.

They didn't. The country has become more left leaning, so the right looks further from the middle (further to the right) than it did

447 SFGoth  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:38:48pm

re: #23 Land Shark

Of course, The Times seems ignorant of the fact it was moving away from small government and fiscal restraint that started the GOP's slide. That's where "moderation" or moving away from the right cost them dearly.

Plenty on the right are big spenders too. Both the RINOs and the Jesus freaks are pretty good at spending other peoples' money. One may actually find that it's the godless libertarians who are the economic conservatives.

448 SFGoth  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:39:55pm

re: #446 sattv4u2

I must be the only one who can't figure out the claim the Republicans became too right wing.

They didn't. The country has become more left leaning, so the right looks further from the middle (further to the right) than it did

That's called parallax error. It's most notable when you're a passenger in the car on the right side trying to see how fast the driver is going (with an analog speedometer).

449 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:40:15pm

re: #429 pittrader1988

I agree. I think along with creationism, nazi's and global warming, LGF should take on bias in the media.

Right. Because I've never, ever written about that subject. Not once.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I'll have to get right on it.

450 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:42:55pm

Part of the claim over the right becoming more right wing has to do with the increasing prominence of the social conservatives within the party, at the expense of the fiscal conservatives. The issues might remain unchanged, but which ones are emphasized have definitely been changed.

451 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:44:39pm

re: #444 sattv4u2

No,, you never said it was the ONLY reason,, but you never entertained any others

I don't deny that it COULD be a reason, yet I doubt it. If a mind was that bright and already had a penchant for science, they would take the ID info, take the evolution info, take all the other info and do what bright young inquiring minds do

LAUGH at and reject the stupid theory!

I posted earlier a personal experience where I saw bright young minds who simply up and left.

452 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:47:16pm

re: #444 sattv4u2

No,, you never said it was the ONLY reason,, but you never entertained any others

I don't deny that it COULD be a reason, yet I doubt it. If a mind was that bright and already had a penchant for science, they would take the ID info, take the evolution info, take all the other info and do what bright young inquiring minds do

LAUGH at and reject the stupid theory!

No, if they believed as they were taught to believe - that a belief in God demanded an acceptance of creationism - they would take their bright minds elsewhere, to a non-bioscience field.

453 Mr Spiffy  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:48:17pm

re: #21 Honorary Yooper

Many pronoucements often are.

"The report of my death was an exaggeration."
-Mark Twain

the first time

454 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:50:45pm

re: #445 Gretchen

I must be the only one who can't figure out the claim the Republicans became too right wing. The stance on abortion remains unchanged. Stance on gay marriage, unchanged, and the same stance the Democrats CLAIM to have now, McCain's statements and Obama's statements were nearly identical to Ms. California. Democrats have made health insurance and abortion "rights" along with a whole host of other "rights". The liberal courts and press have become unapologetic, and while they have been liberal for a while, I can't remember all out tingle up the leg admissions as such. There is a smattering of Creationist fringe in the Republican party, but the Democrats have made global warming a religion, as well as governement funding of abortion and embryonic stem cell research and demonize opponents who find scientific fault.

Republicans went wrong when they began ballooning the size of government and stopped standing up for themselves. They have been bullied by the press and the left too long.

Oh and I wanted to puke when Spector claimed Kemp would have lived if not for the evil Republicans. I guess he believes the Obamasiah will cure cancer, too.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

455 S'latch  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:51:57pm

By all means, Moderate (that means Modern Liberal) Republicans should stand up for themselves. Leaving the party, as Specter did, is not exactly standing up for yourself. It's just bailing out, self-serving, and political treason.

456 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:51:58pm

re: #448 SFGoth

That's called parallax error. It's most notable when you're a passenger in the car on the right side trying to see how fast the driver is going (with an analog speedometer).


Correct. I was explaining this to a (lefty) freind. I like the guy, but he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. So I literally drew him a picture. It was of a football field with yard markers. I told him the 50 yard line was the political center, the end zone lines on each side were the "far right" and the "far left" with the middle of those ideologies the 25 yard lines. I showed him that the "middle" of the progressives has shifted to the 10 yard line pulling the political center to the 30 yard line. The middle of the right, which was 25 yards fom the "center" is now 55 yards away although it didn't move

((((sorry ,, it was better drawn )))))

457 Bill Dalasio  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:54:41pm

re: #441 Salamantis

Well, we could start with the basic point that its that person's mind, not yours.

458 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 12:56:35pm

re: #457 Bill Dalasio

Well, we could start with the basic point that its that person's mind, not yours.

Which is no reason to allow theocrats to indoctrinate it in their pet religious dogmas in public school science class. It doesn't belong to the theocrats, either. Or at least it shouldn't.

459 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:00:29pm

But theocrats want the pliable and trusting young minds of other peoples' kids. They want them real bad. And they want to abuse the public school system and pollute science education with religious dogma in order to get them.

460 Bill Dalasio  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:04:36pm

Well, as much as I don't approve of ID or creationism, it's you that I'm seeing talking about students minds as if they were yours to dispose of as you see best.

461 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:05:42pm

There's a reason why creationists push so hard to get their dogma into public schools -- it's because they're not satisfied with simply brainwashing their own children. They want YOUR children too.

And they know very well that the best way to turn people into anti-science robots is to get at them early in life. As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.

462 pittrader1988  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:10:44pm

re: #449 Charles

sorry. have had to wade through a lot of creationist stuff (which I am also against)!

until the media reforms, they won't get anything right. Only if creationists harm the liberal agenda will they get mad. At this point, the media thinks they are a bunch of wackos-so it's not worth reporting. they also are mostly right wingers, so it allows the media to continue with their stereotyping conservative as wacko wing nuts.

463 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:10:47pm

re: #460 Bill Dalasio

Well, as much as I don't approve of ID or creationism, it's you that I'm seeing talking about students minds as if they were yours to dispose of as you see best.

Nope. It's me insisting that theocrats don't get to abuse the public school system to brainwash them as THEY see fit.

464 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:16:07pm

re: #463 Salamantis

Nope. It's me insisting that theocrats don't get to abuse the public school system to brainwash them as THEY see fit.

Hell,,, I haven't agreed with the choices for curriculum for MANY classes in public schools, weather pushed by theocrats or not, for years in MANY subjects. When was the last time you looked at a high schools American History texts?

465 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #418 nyc redneck

I agree. if the Republicans were so conservative how come they wound up the past few elections with lemmings and tepid pseudo conservatives such as John McCain, George W. Bush, Bob Dole,George H.W. Bush as their standard bearers/ (Please answer me that). Also what about the freaking Democrats? Some of them are to the Left of Stalin and I see few people complaining about that. We now have a President who takes foreign policy advice from lunatic Andrew Sullivan and nobody here has commented on tha, why?

(Sullivan quoted quote Churhcill incorrectly on 'torture" and Obama took the quote from Sullivan.) Wake up people - we have a guy in the White House who know less history then I did when I was 16 years old - and this distresses me immeasurably.

466 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:19:47pm

re: #464 sattv4u2

Hell,,, I haven't agreed with the choices for curriculum for MANY classes in public schools, weather pushed by theocrats or not, for years in MANY subjects. When was the last time you looked at a high schools American History texts?

And who remembers New Math? It didn't work so well.

Neether did fonetic spelling.

467 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:23:45pm

re: #466 Salamantis

And who remembers New Math? It didn't work so well.

Neether did fonetic spelling.

Hell ,, I'm still waiting for the metric system that they threatened us with in the 60's

468 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:25:03pm

re: #463 Salamantis

I have sub taught hundreds of times in the school system (in order to make extra money) and I never saw any religion being taught in school. Correction - actually as a matter of fact the only religion I saw was the worship of
Obama 's "greatness" (and that is the truth), which is almost akin to the worship of Kim Jong-Il in North Korea.

469 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:29:34pm

re: #468 Joel

We're specifically talking about states (Louisiana and Texas in particular) where ID is being mandated by law to be taught in public scholl science classes. Unless you have taught it Louisiana (where it is at the discretion of the teacher) you wouldn't be exposed to it

YET

470 Altermite  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:34:03pm

re: #468 Joel
High school for me was only a handful of years ago. Teachers talking about religion in a proselytizing sort of way was heavily discouraged, and you almost never came across it. You usually came across it with the less obvious ones- it happened frequently in special education programs, as well as the occasional substitute teacher.

No, you don't see it getting taught a whole lot, and I'd rather it stay that way.

471 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:37:52pm

Take a look (if you must) at the Democratic field of candidates for POTUS last year

1. Obama
2. Biden
3. Kucnich
4. Dodd
5. Hillary
6. Edwards
7. Mike Gravel
8. Bill Richardson

Any complaints that the Democrats are far to the left when Hillary is considered to be the moderate?

A joke I heard - "They said that if I voted for McCain I'd wind up with an idiot for Vice President, well I did vote for McCain and yes I wound up with an idiot for Vice President".

Slightly off topic - that Hillary pro Israel mantra sure disappeared once she went to the State Department. and left behind being Senator from New York.

472 ladycatnip  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:39:26pm

#468 Joel

I have sub taught hundreds of times in the school system (in order to make extra money) and I never saw any religion being taught in school. Correction - actually as a matter of fact the only religion I saw was the worship of Obama 's "greatness" (and that is the truth), which is almost akin to the worship of Kim Jong-Il in North Korea.

I find Obama worship a far greater threat to the minds of young people than being taught a unit on ID. Leftist peer pressure to walk in political lock-step is more dangerous and more powerful to young minds.

We can trust the ACLU to file a multitude of lawsuits, and they will win every one of them for the separation issue - especially if the O has his way with appointing SCOTUS'. ID will die a slow but sure death in public high schools in LA and TX. One thing you can take to the bank - it'll never be taught here in CA. ;-)

473 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:39:40pm

re: #470 Altermite

I never want religion taught in shcools unless it is in a history class. In my experience from last yer the only religion I saw was the worship of Obama.

474 cferraro04  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:42:35pm

The republican party does not need to moderate. We ran a moderate in the last presidential election and you can see how that did for us. Everywhere republicans stick by conservative principles they do well. Whenever they try to remake themselves in the image of their liberal rivals they end up losing.

Specter is an opportunist...in my opinion he let the constituency that elected him down and his latest Benedict Arnold move was simply to preserve his political career. Toomey would have handed him his butt...so he jumps ship only a month after going on the record to say that he was not going to do so because he believed in the two party system...then a month later he flip-flops and all but hands Obama a filabuster-proof majority in the Senate...despicable.

The republican party needs to stick by its conservative principles
* fiscal responsibility
* smaller government
* national security
* free market economics
* federalism
* lower taxes

or as the American Spectator once wrote:

1. Our liberty is from God not the government.
2. Our sovereignty rests in our souls not the soil.
3. Our security is through strength not surrender.
4. Our prosperity is from the private sector not the public sector.
5. Our truths are self-evident not relative.

The republican party does not need liberals defining who and what they are. We need to consolidate the base, find new leaders who will lead and who will do so promoting the conservative agenda...leave political correctness and moderation to the dems they are better at it than repubs. This country is still majority conservative...we lost the last election because the base lost confidence in the republican leadership.

475 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:43:46pm

re: #472 ladycatnip

#468 Joel

I find Obama worship a far greater threat to the minds of young people than being taught a unit on ID. Leftist peer pressure to walk in political lock-step is more dangerous and more powerful to young minds.


I concur. What was so sad was the indoctrination of young minds. that I witnessed. Every Friday the kids (10 year olds) have a "What I appreciate" segment where they get up and say what it is they appreciated the most and just about all of them said "I appreciate President (elect) Obama". I finally said "Hey kids, he is a man and a politician not a God". (A rare case of courage for me in liberal Greenwich Village).

476 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:44:24pm

re: #471 Joel

that Hillary pro Israel mantra sure disappeared once she went to the State Department. and left behind being Senator from New York

Jewish voting population in and around NYC ,,,,, countless

Jewish voting population in and around the state dept ,, not so much!

477 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:47:25pm

re: #476 sattv4u2

that Hillary pro Israel mantra sure disappeared once she went to the State Department. and left behind being Senator from New York

Jewish voting population in and around NYC ,,,,, countless

Jewish voting population in and around the state dept ,, not so much!

Jewish automatic voting Democratic no matter what - almost 80%. There is your answer. She was never a friend only (like Spector) an opportunist. Dick orris wrote that if she ran from Kentucky, Israel woudl be just another country for her.

478 nyc redneck  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:52:53pm

re: #477 Joel

Jewish automatic voting Democratic no matter what - almost 80%. There is your answer. She was never a friend only (like Spector) an opportunist. Dick orris wrote that if she ran from Kentucky, Israel woudl be just another country for her.

i saw this bumper sticker today:

HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT
make kennedy her driver

it made me giggle. (sorry)

479 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:54:13pm

John McCain
1. Supports open borders and amnesty and does not believe in the border fence
2. disapproved of Sam Alito for Supreme Court
3. Does not believe in water boarding
4. Wants to close down Gitmo
5. Voted against the Bush tax cuts
6. Came up with the gang of 14 crap on judges
7. Believes in global warming
8. Has Miss Lindsey Graham (RINO - S.C.) as his mistress (I had throw that in)

Fuck him and anyone else dumb enough who thinks he is far right.

480 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:55:40pm

re: #478 nyc redneck

Ever notice when some politicians who are non Jews wear yarmulkes they wear them point almost looking like a bra cup on their heads?

481 ladycatnip  Mon, May 4, 2009 1:57:35pm

#475 Joel

I concur. What was so sad was the indoctrination of young minds. that I witnessed. Every Friday the kids (10 year olds) have a "What I appreciate" segment where they get up and say what it is they appreciated the most and just about all of them said "I appreciate President (elect) Obama". I finally said "Hey kids, he is a man and a politician not a God". (A rare case of courage for me in liberal Greenwich Village).

What you said was courageous! The question is, will you be asked back?

Leftist indoctrination begins in public elementary schools. Here in CA teachers used their students to demonstrate against the onslaught of coming "pink" slips. Teachers encouraged ALL students to wear pink on a particular day of protest, and some parents reported their kids' teachers used veiled intimidation if the students didn't participate. That's scarier than ID to me.

This is one reason I do not fear ID - the teachers unions are strong and powerful (at least here in CA), and the NEA would never tolerate this.

482 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:02:32pm

re: #481 ladycatnip

I am opposed to creationism and ID but I do not view it as a major threat for the reasons you stated. This might make me unpopular here but I am being honest. The indoctrination from Kindergarten to graduate school of kids into leftism and the intimidation of kids who might think differently - now that is where the threat comes. Try being a pro Israel student on Columbia University's campus with professors such as Rashid Khalidi (Obama's friend), the late Edward Said, Joseph Massad - well you get my drift.

As for the Obama indoctrination and worship I would have said the same thing to the kids if they were getting up and swearing to the greatness of Ronald Reagan (a President I admired) too - he is a man and a politician, not a God!

483 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:07:05pm

re: #482 Joel

I am opposed to creationism and ID but I do not view it as a major threat for the reasons you stated. This might make me unpopular here but I am being honest. The indoctrination from Kindergarten to graduate school of kids into leftism and the intimidation of kids who might think differently - now that is where the threat comes. Try being a pro Israel student on Columbia University's campus with professors such as Rashid Khalidi (Obama's friend), the late Edward Said, Joseph Massad - well you get my drift.

As for the Obama indoctrination and worship I would have said the same thing to the kids if they were getting up and swearing to the greatness of Ronald Reagan (a President I admired) too - he is a man and a politician, not a God!

I have stated this on several occasions, but it bears repeating. I have worked on the last two presidential campaigns and not ONCE did ID, Creationism or anything remotely close was ever mentioned by a single person I came into contact with. Not Republicans, not Democrats and not Independents.

484 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:08:41pm

I apologize for the clumsy wording of my last post.

Codeine laced cough syrup makes for a mushy brain.

485 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:11:00pm

re: #483 loppyd

hi lopps!
Me too. I helped out on the McCain (a guy I did not even care for) campaigns in NY and NJ (two very blue states) and I met tons of conservatives who were far more right wing then I ever will be and not one of them mentioned creationism or ID as their goals or things they would like to see in America. They all worried about taxes, illegal immigration, national defense, crime, anti quotas) and to repeat myself, not once did they say they wanted to teach Genesis in schools. Even the anti abortion ones understood that legal abortion was pretty much here to stay.

I am glad that you are feeling better.

486 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:11:07pm

re: #484 loppyd

I apologize for the clumsy wording of my last post.

Codeine laced cough syrup makes for a mushy brain.

But a cheap date!

//

487 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:12:01pm

re: #484 loppyd

I apologize for the clumsy wording of my last post.

Codeine laced cough syrup makes for a mushy brain.

I posted too soon. I was hoping you were feeling better.

488 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:13:31pm

re: #486 sattv4u2

But a cheap date!

//

Out of curiosity but in China is a cheap date considered to be an American meal and a movie?

489 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:17:42pm

re: #485 Joel

hi lopps!
Me too. I helped out on the McCain (a guy I did not even care for) campaigns in NY and NJ (two very blue states) and I met tons of conservatives who were far more right wing then I ever will be and not one of them mentioned creationism or ID as their goals or things they would like to see in America. They all worried about taxes, illegal immigration, national defense, crime, anti quotas) and to repeat myself, not once did they say they wanted to teach Genesis in schools. Even the anti abortion ones understood that legal abortion was pretty much here to stay.

I am glad that you are feeling better.

It was hard to campaign for McCain because I also don't particularly care for him, but I was willing to do my part to prevent an Obama presidency.

Agreed on the abortion issue too. Not one mention of it this time around, but had a few discussions with voters in '04.

490 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:18:23pm

re: #486 sattv4u2

But a cheap date!

//

Ha! I'd be under the table after half of a beer right now.

491 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:19:15pm

re: #487 Joel

I posted too soon. I was hoping you were feeling better.

I have totally lost my voice.

My mind is next....I just know it. :)

492 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:20:31pm

re: #490 loppyd

Ha! I'd be under the table after half of a beer right now.

WAITER ,,,, a Vodka Martini for the lady!

493 sattv4u2  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:21:06pm

re: #491 loppyd

I have totally lost my voice.

My mind is next....I just know it. :)

I can't lose what I've never had!

494 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:24:11pm

re: #13 quickjustice

Specter is a spectacularly bad example of this issue. He wasn't run out the the party because of ideology. He left the party because the polls showed him losing the GOP primary. He's also a sick, old man of whose arrogance and high-handedness the party base had become thoroughly disgusted.

Add self-centered to that list.

It's all about Specter all of the time.

495 JakeSpiderMonkey  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:24:18pm

All I can say about this article is BULL CRAP! Yesterday, there were several republicans like Jeb Bush stating that the republican party should stop being the party that's against abortion & against illegal immigration. SCREW these so-called repubicans and stick to your conservative roots! I don't think many people would think our government should run Chrysler,GM, maybe soon the medical industry, the "big oil" industry, and the Obama admin. might get rid of of conservative talk radio, the place where's there's common sense.

Actually, I hardly listen to TV because of CNN, Bill Mahr, Steve Colbert, and other clowns like Nancy "Botox" Pelosi stating, that being a conservative is a failed policy when it came to that outlandish "Stimulus" bill.

Just to quote one of my favorite country songs by Aaron Tippin,
"You've got to stand for something or you will fall for anything,
You've got to be your own man, not a puppet on a string,
NEVER COMPROMISE WHAT'S RIGHT and unhold your family name,
YOU'VE GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING"

And besides, Obama didn't win the election by a landslide compared to Reagan. I think many people will get fed up of the idolization of the one & people are going to revolt. OH yeah, some voters didn't vote on McCain because he wasn't conservative enough. Who knows? Maybe conservatives like me will be more successful if all of us have our backs toward the wall.

496 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:25:28pm

re: #492 sattv4u2

WAITER ,,,, a Vodka Martini for the lady!

Make it extra dirty with four olives.

497 y0kkles  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:25:46pm

We lost the election for two reasons:

1. People forgot how to think (reason). They only know how to feel (emotion). War feels emotionally wrong.

2. People don't know anything about economics. They attempted to reason as follows:

George Bush is President.
The economy went south
Therefore, it must be his fault.
Therefore, I will vote against his party.

This is reasoning is not valid, and also supports my first point.

We didn't lose because of abortion, gay marriage, or creationism. The trouble we haven't properly explained these issues.

498 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:26:20pm

re: #493 sattv4u2

I can't lose what I've never had!

:)

Must take a little rest now.

499 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:36:43pm

re: #479 Joel

That's funny; John McCain has a perfect aantiabortion voting record, has nver accepted a federal earmark, and has an 82.3% lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union.

500 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:38:24pm

re: #482 Joel

I am opposed to creationism and ID but I do not view it as a major threat for the reasons you stated. This might make me unpopular here but I am being honest. The indoctrination from Kindergarten to graduate school of kids into leftism and the intimidation of kids who might think differently - now that is where the threat comes. Try being a pro Israel student on Columbia University's campus with professors such as Rashid Khalidi (Obama's friend), the late Edward Said, Joseph Massad - well you get my drift.

As for the Obama indoctrination and worship I would have said the same thing to the kids if they were getting up and swearing to the greatness of Ronald Reagan (a President I admired) too - he is a man and a politician, not a God!

Umkm...you don't cure leftist arsenic poisoning by dosing the patient with creationist strychnine.

501 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 2:43:36pm

re: #495 JakeSpiderMonkey

All I can say about this article is BULL CRAP! Yesterday, there were several republicans like Jeb Bush stating that the republican party should stop being the party that's against abortion & against illegal immigration. SCREW these so-called repubicans and stick to your conservative roots! I don't think many people would think our government should run Chrysler,GM, maybe soon the medical industry, the "big oil" industry, and the Obama admin. might get rid of of conservative talk radio, the place where's there's common sense.

Actually, I hardly listen to TV because of CNN, Bill Mahr, Steve Colbert, and other clowns like Nancy "Botox" Pelosi stating, that being a conservative is a failed policy when it came to that outlandish "Stimulus" bill.

Just to quote one of my favorite country songs by Aaron Tippin,
"You've got to stand for something or you will fall for anything,
You've got to be your own man, not a puppet on a string,
NEVER COMPROMISE WHAT'S RIGHT and unhold your family name,
YOU'VE GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING"

And besides, Obama didn't win the election by a landslide compared to Reagan. I think many people will get fed up of the idolization of the one & people are going to revolt. OH yeah, some voters didn't vote on McCain because he wasn't conservative enough. Who knows? Maybe conservatives like me will be more successful if all of us have our backs toward the wall.

If y'all socons keep insisting on nominating someone with purist Religious Right credentials on abortion, gay civil unions and creationism or you'll take your votes and go home, the fisc-cons and foreign policy GWOT hawks may either form their own party or try to change the Dems from within, and let y'all fester all alone with your 20 per cent.

502 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:02:00pm

re: #461 Charles

There's a reason why creationists push so hard to get their dogma into public schools -- it's because they're not satisfied with simply brainwashing their own children. They want YOUR children too.

And they know very well that the best way to turn people into anti-science robots is to get at them early in life. As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.

I've said many times that they learned from the social science leftists very well.

503 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:07:22pm

re: #500 Salamantis

Umkm...you don't cure leftist arsenic poisoning by dosing the patient with creationist strychnine.

Very bad analogy.

504 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:09:10pm

re: #499 Salamantis

That's funny; John McCain has a perfect aantiabortion voting record, has nver accepted a federal earmark, and has an 82.3% lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union.

yeah that is why he was endorsed by The New York Times for the GOP nomination. McCain in another era would have been right at home in the LBJ administration and so would George W. Bush.

505 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:10:59pm

499 Salamantis
Governor Bob Casey of Pennsylvania was fervently against abortion but was a solid liberal as well, however he was banned from speaking at the 1984 or 1988 Democratic national convention. Explain please.

For the record I am conservative and pro choice.

506 recklessprocess  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:14:00pm

So, in order to save the party we must move further to the left. No Fucking Way. We must more to libertarianism/conservatism. Neither party supports conservatism and both are bossy about everything. libertarianism/conservatism is not 'center'. I think it is a bit to the right of Republicans. Now I do feel that my head will not explode as I hold the idea that women can choose to abort in the first two trimesters at will and that as a society we need to find ways to encourage allowing the baby to live. I can think both thoughts at once and my head does not explode or even fume a little. I do not hate Christians and do not see them defining the right or the left. I do think gays should have civil unions like heteros but they need to give up using the word 'Marriage' which describes a religous sacrament. Why insult the religious people? Just call it something else and most of the acrimony will just disappear. I bet there are plenty of heteros who would prefer a civil union.
We need to move towards libertarianism and conservatism. Legalize marijuana and make W.F. Buckley proud.

507 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:14:41pm

re: #497 y0kkles

We lost because George W. Bush decided to go into lame duck status in 2005 right after Katrina and was a very passive president. The only thing he did right was the surge and that was urged upon him by others. He never fought back or gave his supporters or those who wished him well a reason to rally around him, , never whined about Keith Olbermann the way lefties do about Limbaugh and lived his faith in the White House of turning the other cheek. He also was on the wrong side of the amnesty issue.

508 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:16:54pm

re: #491 loppyd

I have totally lost my voice.

My mind is next....I just know it. :)

I hope you get better soon. You are one of my favorite all time people here.

509 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:23:08pm

re: #507 Joel

A good man who meant well and always kept us safe.

I'll always be grateful for that.

510 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:23:31pm

re: #508 Joel

I hope you get better soon. You are one of my favorite all time people here.

Awww.

The feeling is mutual.

511 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:26:29pm

re: #505 Joel

499 Salamantis
Governor Bob Casey of Pennsylvania was fervently against abortion but was a solid liberal as well, however he was banned from speaking at the 1984 or 1988 Democratic national convention. Explain please.

For the record I am conservative and pro choice.

There are accepted, and less-than-accepted, positions on abortion in both parties. I firmly believe that Giuliani's candidacy went nowhere in no small measure to his rejection by southern socons due to his pro-choice stance, and the same thing goes for Romney and his well-publicized flip flop on the issue. Both would likely have done quite well in a general lection. Pro-choice Republicans are about as rare as antiabortion Democrats - and the switch by pro-choice Arlen Specter renders the demarcation even sharper.

512 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:26:55pm

re: #500 Salamantis

Umkm...you don't cure leftist arsenic poisoning by dosing the patient with creationist strychnine.

If creationism was even a scintilla of the issue you believe it to be among voters that might be an argument.

But it is not.

513 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:30:05pm

re: #506 recklessprocess

So, in order to save the party we must move further to the left. No Fucking Way. We must more to libertarianism/conservatism. Neither party supports conservatism and both are bossy about everything. libertarianism/conservatism is not 'center'. I think it is a bit to the right of Republicans. Now I do feel that my head will not explode as I hold the idea that women can choose to abort in the first two trimesters at will and that as a society we need to find ways to encourage allowing the baby to live. I can think both thoughts at once and my head does not explode or even fume a little. I do not hate Christians and do not see them defining the right or the left. I do think gays should have civil unions like heteros but they need to give up using the word 'Marriage' which describes a religous sacrament. Why insult the religious people? Just call it something else and most of the acrimony will just disappear. I bet there are plenty of heteros who would prefer a civil union.
We need to move towards libertarianism and conservatism. Legalize marijuana and make W.F. Buckley proud.

Insomuch as you seem to be rejecting socon litmus tests, while embracing fisc-con financial discipline, the expansion of personal freedoms, and maintaining a forward-leaning stance in the GWOT, I agree with you.

514 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:30:42pm

re: #511 Salamantis

There are accepted, and less-than-accepted, positions on abortion in both parties. I firmly believe that Giuliani's candidacy went nowhere in no small measure to his rejection by southern socons due to his pro-choice stance, and the same thing goes for Romney and his well-publicized flip flop on the issue. Both would likely have done quite well in a general lection. Pro-choice Republicans are about as rare as antiabortion Democrats - and the switch by pro-choice Arlen Specter renders the demarcation even sharper.

Um, I think his decision to sit out all of the caucuses and primaries before Florida had a heck of a lot more to do with it.

515 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:31:10pm

re: #512 loppyd

If creationism was even a scintilla of the issue you believe it to be among voters that might be an argument.

But it is not.

Check out Kansas. The creationist hijinx of their board of education delivered a breadbasket state to the Dems.

516 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:32:18pm

re: #514 loppyd

Um, I think his decision to sit out all of the caucuses and primaries before Florida had a heck of a lot more to do with it.

He did so out of perceived necessity, because the primaries were frontloaded with antiabortion-leaning states.

517 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:32:22pm

re: #515 Salamantis

Check out Kansas. The creationist hijinx of their board of education delivered a breadbasket state to the Dems.

Show me some polling data to back that up and we can talk.

So far nobody has been able to prove one led to the other.

518 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:32:52pm

re: #516 Salamantis

He did so out of perceived necessity, because the primaries were frontloaded with antiabortion-leaning states.

That it total bullshit.

519 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:36:52pm

re: #509 loppyd

A good man who meant well and always kept us safe.

I'll always be grateful for that.

yes he was. For all his fault,s his love of country and freedom and his forbearance in the face of brutal attacks by vicious assholes will secure a better place for him in history. I actually like the man.

520 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:37:13pm

Giuliani skips Iowa caucuses for Fla.
Republican appeals to state's Cuban-American community

He said he thinks his early-state strategy will pay off “in that we’ve paid a lot of attention to states that some other candidates haven’t paid much attention to.”

“I think our message of being on offense against terrorism, having been tested by crisis, how to handle difficult problems, I think that message will succeed in a number of these primaries,” he said.

521 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:37:49pm

re: #518 loppyd

That it total bullshit.

The Repubs in Iowa and New Hampshire are solidly antiabortion. No bovine fecus, just fact.

522 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:39:20pm

re: #518 loppyd

That it total bullshit.

Giuliani (my mayor) was a tough law & order guy, a guy who was not afraid to stand up to the municipal unions, and a guy who understood that taxing the most productive people in the city would only drive them out. If I were a jihadi I would much prefer a limp wristed metrosexual like Obama then a Giuliani.

523 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:39:27pm

re: #517 loppyd

Show me some polling data to back that up and we can talk.

So far nobody has been able to prove one led to the other.

The proof is in the pudding. Kansas went from a Repub governor and two Repub senators before the Kansas creationist school board travesty, to a Dem governor and two Dem senators shortly afterwartd.

524 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:40:04pm

re: #521 Salamantis

The Repubs in Iowa and New Hampshire are solidly antiabortion. No bovine fecus, just fact.

That doesn't prove that Rudy skipped those states because of that.

Back up your statements with facts, not musings.

525 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:40:55pm

re: #521 Salamantis

The Repubs in Iowa and New Hampshire are solidly antiabortion. No bovine fecus, just fact.

You are assuming that they are so one issue obsessed and would rather lose the election to a left wing ideologue such as B. Hussein Urkel rather then elect a guy who has zero power to outlaw abortion. Not bloody likely.

526 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:41:00pm

re: #523 Salamantis

The proof is in the pudding. Kansas went from a Repub governor and two Repub senators before the Kansas creationist school board travesty, to a Dem governor and two Dem senators shortly afterwartd.

This is opinion. Not fact.

Prove it.

Hint:

Exit polling data

527 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:42:29pm

re: #524 loppyd

That doesn't prove that Rudy skipped those states because of that.

Back up your statements with facts, not musings.

Can you think of another reason? He skippd them because he didn't think he could win them - and the antiabortion stance of the majority of Repub voters cannot but have played a substantial part in his decision to do so. If he thought that he could have won them, he would certainly have run in them.

528 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:43:19pm

re: #525 Joel

You are assuming that they are so one issue obsessed and would rather lose the election to a left wing ideologue such as B. Hussein Urkel rather then elect a guy who has zero power to outlaw abortion. Not bloody likely.

Antiabortionists are the stereotype of the single issue voter.

529 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:44:31pm

The Sibelius woman who won e in Kansas did not run as a hard edged liberal. Red states are a lot more tolerant then Blue states and are willing to cross party lines if a candidate seems to stand for the same values as they do. Ben Nelson in Nebraska is a good example.

530 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:45:03pm

re: #527 Salamantis

Can you think of another reason? He skippd them because he didn't think he could win them - and the antiabortion stance of the majority of Repub voters cannot but have played a substantial part in his decision to do so. If he thought that he could have won them, he would certainly have run in them.

I can think of a million reasons. But I didn't make a statement as to the reason for his decision. You did. And you are trying to make me believe it because you say so.

531 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:46:18pm

re: #528 Salamantis

Antiabortionists are the stereotype of the single issue voter.

I thought that was creationism?

/

532 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:46:38pm

re: #526 loppyd

This is opinion. Not fact.

Prove it.

Hint:

Exit polling data

The switch from Dems to Repubs in the Senate and the state house is fact, not opinion, as is the timing of the switch. There are Kansas Lizards who have stated on list that the Kansas mess was one of two reasons; the other one being the antiabortion Operation Rescue demonstrations in their state around the same time.

They did not like being a national anti-science laughingstock, and got supremely pissed when their kids' science education was threatened, and threw the bastards who endangered it out.

533 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:47:52pm

re: #532 Salamantis

The switch from Dems to Repubs in the Senate and the state house is fact, not opinion, as is the timing of the switch. There are Kansas Lizards who have stated on list that the Kansas mess was one of two reasons; the other one being the antiabortion Operation Rescue demonstrations in their state around the same time.

They did not like being a national anti-science laughingstock, and got supremely pissed when their kids' science education was threatened, and threw the bastards who endangered it out.

That does not prove your point.

Show me that the reason they switched was because of creationism.

534 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:48:00pm

re: #528 Salamantis

Antiabortionists are the stereotype of the single issue voter.

Nixon, Reagan, Ford, Bush I and Bush II all anti abortion. The last I checked abortion was still legal and (alas) still flourishing. It is a herring issue. The POTUS (or TOTUS i.e. Teleprompter of the United States in Urkel's case) is not a dictator who can outlaw abortion by fiat and everyone knows that.

535 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:50:55pm

re: #530 loppyd

I can think of a million reasons. But I didn't make a statement as to the reason for his decision. You did. And you are trying to make me believe it because you say so.

James Dobson told evangelicals that there ws no way he would vote for Giuliani. Iowa is heavily evangelical, and more than 2/3 of Repub voters there are antiabortion.

The state went to evangelical Huckabee.

536 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:52:12pm

re: #535 Salamantis

James Dobson told evangelicals that there ws no way he would vote for Giuliani. Iowa is heavily evangelical, and more than 2/3 of Repub voters there are antiabortion.

The state went to evangelical Huckabee.

That is all fine. But it does not prove that is why Rudy skipped it.

537 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:54:22pm

re: #535 Salamantis

James Dobson told evangelicals that there ws no way he would vote for Giuliani. Iowa is heavily evangelical, and more than 2/3 of Repub voters there are antiabortion.

The state went to evangelical Huckabee.

Pat Robertson endorsed Rudy so it is a wash. I m not aware that Evangelicals take their marching orders from Dobson and do what ever he tells them and that they are monolithic.

It's akin to saying that Blacks take their marching orders from my former classmate Al Sharpton or that Urkel takes his marching orders from Rev.Wright. /sarcasm

538 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:54:48pm

re: #533 loppyd

That does not prove your point.

Show me that the reason they switched was because of creationism.

What the hell else happened in Kansas between 2004 and 2006? Can you think of a single state-election-swaying thing? I can't.

You can't demonstrate that the Kansas creationist school board travesty WASN'T the reason for the switch from Repub to Dem.

539 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:55:37pm

re: #536 loppyd

That is all fine. But it does not prove that is why Rudy skipped it.

He had limited campaign funds, and wanted to save them for races he thought he could win.

540 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:55:57pm

re: #538 Salamantis

What the hell else happened in Kansas between 2004 and 2006? Can you think of a single state-election-swaying thing? I can't.

You can't demonstrate that the Kansas creationist school board travesty WASN'T the reason for the switch from Repub to Dem.

And you can't demonstrate that it WAS.

541 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:57:13pm

re: #537 Joel

Pat Robertson endorsed Rudy so it is a wash. I m not aware that Evangelicals take their marching orders from Dobson and do what ever he tells them and that they are monolithic.

It's akin to saying that Blacks take their marching orders from my former classmate Al Sharpton or that Urkel takes his marching orders from Rev.Wright. /sarcasm

Evangelical Repubs in a socon state voted for an evangelical preacher candidate; big surprise.

542 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 3:57:41pm

re: #539 Salamantis

He had limited campaign funds, and wanted to save them for races he thought he could win.

Says who?

Money was not one of the reasons he or his campaign stated.

543 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:00:46pm

re: #540 loppyd

And you can't demonstrate that it WAS.

So you don't think parents upset at the Repub-led creationist evisceration of their kids' public school science education had anything to do with it?

Wanna buy a bridge?

544 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:01:12pm

socon is going to be on my list of words to be banned from discourse pretty soon...

545 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:01:45pm

There are numerous reasons why a governorship will go form one party to another even in Blue or Red states, most have to do with local issues such as taxes, high crime, unemployment, labor unrest, property taxes, public services, etc. In NY a very liberal state, uber liberal Mario Cuomo was ousted by George Pataki a Republican. I doubt that Kansas voted in a Democratic governor because of creationism.

Even in Mass. a Republican named Mitt Romney wsa voted in.

546 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:01:54pm

re: #542 loppyd

Says who?

Money was not one of the reasons he or his campaign stated.

Of course not; you don't advertise weakness. But he was tapped out after Florida, just a few weeks later, and quickly dropped out.

547 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:02:11pm

re: #544 loppyd

socon is going to be on my list of words to be banned from discourse pretty soon...

along with 'neocon'!

548 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:03:21pm

re: #541 Salamantis

Evangelical Repubs in a socon state voted for an evangelical preacher candidate; big surprise.

Yeah then why wasn't Huckabee the GOP nominee?

549 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:03:34pm

re: #543 Salamantis

So you don't think parents upset at the Repub-led creationist evisceration of their kids' public school science education had anything to do with it?

Wanna buy a bridge?

Maybe they were. But we can't say definitively that that is the sole reason that people voted as they did.

Believe what you want. You are obviously passionate about this non-issue issue.

550 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:03:50pm

re: #545 Joel

There are numerous reasons why a governorship will go form one party to another even in Blue or Red states, most have to do with local issues such as taxes, high crime, unemployment, labor unrest, property taxes, public services, etc. In NY a very liberal state, uber liberal Mario Cuomo was ousted by George Pataki a Republican. I doubt that Kansas voted in a Democratic governor because of creationism.

Umm...the science education of the state citizens' kids IS a local issue. Nobody there cared about the creationist legislative push - until it got pushed on them. Then NIMBYism took over.

Even in Mass. a Republican named Mitt Romney wsa voted in.

551 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:03:58pm

re: #546 Salamantis

Of course not; you don't advertise weakness. But he was tapped out after Florida, just a few weeks later, and quickly dropped out.

Because he got stomped.

552 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:04:38pm

re: #548 Joel

Yeah then why wasn't Huckabee the GOP nominee?

Because the rest of the country ain't Iowa; it's one of the most evangelical states in the union.

553 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:05:45pm

re: #551 loppyd

Because he got stomped.

Yep. Because antiabortion Repubs in the South shunned him on Super Tuesday.

554 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:06:32pm

re: #552 Salamantis

Because the rest of the country ain't Iowa; it's one of the most evangelical states in the union.

So evangelical they voted for Obama.

555 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:07:58pm

re: #554 loppyd

So evangelical they voted for Obama.

So evangelical they have a major lefty as Senator (and a nut job too) named Tom Harkin.

556 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:08:41pm

re: #553 Salamantis

Yep. Because antiabortion Repubs in the South shunned him on Super Tuesday.

Nonsense.

He was doomed before that because he ran a stupid campaign putting all of his eggs in one basket.

557 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:09:06pm

re: #553 Salamantis

Yep. Because antiabortion Repubs in the South shunned him on Super Tuesday.

No because he never got any traction by skipping the first few primaries and stayed out of the news for two months. Nobody is claiming he ran a great campaign.

558 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:10:44pm

re: #552 Salamantis

Because the rest of the country ain't Iowa; it's one of the most evangelical states in the union.

But but but I thought the GOP was run by yahoo Christianist types. How the **** did the GOP then wind up with McLame?

559 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:11:24pm

re: #554 loppyd

So evangelical they voted for Obama.

That wasn't the Repubs, that was the Dems in Iowa. There are liberal evangelicals. And at the time, Obama was campaigning to the right of the field, emphasizing his family and his church attendance, and the Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko messes weren't yet on the radar.

Even when they got there, people considered them to be prtisn smers, and discounted them.

560 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:12:38pm

re: #559 Salamantis

That wasn't the Repubs, that was the Dems in Iowa. There are liberal evangelicals. And at the time, Obama was campaigning to the right of the field, emphasizing his family and his church attendance, and the Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko messes weren't yet on the radar.

Even when they got there, people considered them to be prtisn smers, and discounted them.

So those liberal evangelicals had no problem with Obama's abortion stance?

561 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:13:18pm

re: #556 loppyd

Nonsense.

He was doomed before that because he ran a stupid campaign putting all of his eggs in one basket.

Yeah, and that basket was Florida, my home state. I voted for Rudy. But I heard my religious neighbors in the socon panhandle where I live sneer at the 9-11 mayor because he was pro-choice.

562 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:13:59pm

Salamantis

Do you live in Iowa? Or Kansas for that matter?

563 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:15:14pm

re: #560 loppyd

So those liberal evangelicals had no problem with Obama's abortion stance?

Obama is the most charismatic American politician since Reagan and Clinton. People were voting for the mesmerizing smiley face, and didn't care what his political positions were.

Damn dangerous, that.

564 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:16:03pm

re: #561 Salamantis

Yeah, and that basket was Florida, my home state. I voted for Rudy. But I heard my religious neighbors in the socon panhandle where I live sneer at the 9-11 mayor because he was pro-choice.

socon

1 demerit

It was all over for Rudy before the Florida primary because he gave the impression that his victory in Florida was guaranteed. People don't go for that.

565 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:16:25pm

re: #562 loppyd

Salamantis

Do you live in Iowa? Or Kansas for that matter?

Nope; in Florida. But I did live in Oklahoma, directly under Kansas, for 2 years.

Where do YOU live?

566 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:16:52pm

My side lost because George W. Bush (unfairly) had made the Republican tag toxic, because of the over whelming media bias that refused to investigate Obama's background, because of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd's fucking up Fannie and Freddie, because a lot of guilt ridden people wanted the novelty of voting for a Black man despite his skimpy back ground, and the GOP nominated a Democrat Lite, a guy who pretty much disdained Republicans. It is amazing he lost by only 6 -7 % points.

567 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:17:16pm

re: #563 Salamantis

Obama is the most charismatic American politician since Reagan and Clinton. People were voting for the mesmerizing smiley face, and didn't care what his political positions were.

Damn dangerous, that.

I don't think he's charismatic. He gives speeches like tent revival sermons.

568 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:18:04pm

re: #565 Salamantis

Nope; in Florida. But I did live in Oklahoma, directly under Kansas, for 2 years.

Where do YOU live?

Massachusetts.

I campaigned for Bush and McCain in NH.

569 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:18:16pm

socon is an acronym for social conservative just like fisc con is an acronym for fiscal conservative. It's perfectly respectable shorthand, and I will continue to employ it.

570 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:18:48pm

re: #563 Salamantis

Obama is the most charismatic American politician since Reagan and Clinton. People were voting for the mesmerizing smiley face, and didn't care what his political positions were.

Damn dangerous, that.

He is an empty suit and a charlatan and the danger he will do to this country will be with us decades down the road. I at least did not vote for him but then again I am unusually precocious.

571 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:19:04pm

re: #566 Joel

If he had voted against tarp he could have won. He was up by double digits and Obama was on the ropes at that point.

572 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:19:19pm

re: #567 loppyd

I don't think he's charismatic. He gives speeches like tent revival sermons.

Revivalist preachers and televangelists are charismatic. And he's got the whole call and response technique down pat.

573 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:19:41pm

re: #569 Salamantis

socon is an acronym for social conservative just like fisc con is an acronym for fiscal conservative. It's perfectly respectable shorthand, and I will continue to employ it.

and I will continue to issue demerits because it is annoying.

574 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:20:04pm

re: #572 Salamantis

Revivalist preachers and televangelists are charismatic. And he's got the whole call and response technique down pat.

To you maybe. Not me.

575 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:20:44pm

re: #570 Joel

He is an empty suit and a charlatan and the danger he will do to this country will be with us decades down the road. I at least did not vote for him but then again I am unusually precocious.

I voted for Rudy in the primary and McCain in the general.

576 thesextons  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:22:14pm

re: #561 Salamantis

Yeah, and that basket was Florida, my home state. I voted for Rudy. But I heard my religious neighbors in the socon panhandle where I live sneer at the 9-11 mayor because he was pro-choice.

Anecdotal information regarding your neighbors is not evidence that will assist in establishing your opinion as fact.

577 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:22:24pm

re: #575 Salamantis

I voted for Rudy in the primary and McCain in the general.

McCain the pro-life word that shall not be uttered, that is.

578 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:22:27pm

re: #571 loppyd

If he had voted against tarp he could have won. He was up by double digits and Obama was on the ropes at that point.

Also if the media had made an even perfunctory attempt at being balanced, had investigated Urkel 1/2 the time they spent investigating Palin - I think the Cranky Old Bastard would have pulled it out. We have elected the most left wing President in our history and we shall have to drink out of a bitter cup down the road. Another decade and I am retiring but the kids just graduating now and the debt they will have to pay - yikes!

579 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:23:13pm

re: #574 loppyd

To you maybe. Not me.

Early in the campaign, I tried to warn people that he might win on the force of cult-of-personality alone, and people sneered at me. I was a Cassandra, crying wolf-in-shining-sheep's clothing in the LGF wilderness, and much fun was made of me back then.

They're not laughing now.

580 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:24:28pm

re: #575 Salamantis

I voted for Rudy in the primary and McCain in the general.

Well if that is the case you did the right thing (IMHO). Sometimes life does not give you the best choices but you have to still pick the best that is available. I am not interested in nominating the most conservative candidate - only the conservative candidate most likely to win.

581 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:24:36pm

re: #578 Joel

Also if the media had made an even perfunctory attempt at being balanced, had investigated Urkel 1/2 the time they spent investigating Palin - I think the Cranky Old Bastard would have pulled it out. We have elected the most left wing President in our history and we shall have to drink out of a bitter cup down the road. Another decade and I am retiring but the kids just graduating now and the debt they will have to pay - yikes!

It never had to happen.

I'd like to ask all of those Republicans who stayed home or voted for Obama how that's working out for them now.

582 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:24:54pm

re: #577 loppyd

McCain the pro-life word that shall not be uttered, that is.

I voted for McCain for the same reason that I voted for Dubya's re-election; post-9-11, the safety and security of this nation in the face of the jihadist threat eclipsed all other issues for me.

583 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:24:56pm

by the time of the NY primaries, Rudy had dropped out so I voted for Mitt.

584 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:25:41pm

re: #579 Salamantis

Early in the campaign, I tried to warn people that he might win on the force of cult-of-personality alone, and people sneered at me. I was a Cassandra, crying wolf-in-shining-sheep's clothing in the LGF wilderness, and much fun was made of me back then.

They're not laughing now.

Does this give you pleasure?

I never doubted he could win. I never doubted McCain could, either.

585 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:25:54pm

re: #583 Joel

by the time of the NY primaries, Rudy had dropped out so I voted for Mitt.

YEESSSS!

586 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:26:23pm

re: #581 loppyd

It never had to happen.

I'd like to ask all of those Republicans who stayed home or voted for Obama how that's working out for them now.

I'd like to ask McCain too"How did all that sticking your thumb in the GOP's eyes all these years work out with you with the MSM and NY Times once the rubber hit the road"?

I too am not into the purity of losing. You play to win.

587 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:26:53pm

re: #582 Salamantis

I voted for McCain for the same reason that I voted for Dubya's re-election; post-9-11, the safety and security of this nation in the face of the jihadist threat eclipsed all other issues for me.

So when it came down to that moment alone in the voting booth it was that that trumped all other issues?

588 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:27:21pm

re: #584 loppyd

Does this give you pleasure?

I never doubted he could win. I never doubted McCain could, either.

No, I derive no schadenfreude from it, since I have to suffer Obama's presidency also.

589 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:27:35pm

re: #586 Joel

I'd like to ask McCain too"How did all that sticking your thumb in the GOP's eyes all these years work out with you with the MSM and NY Times once the rubber hit the road"?

I too am not into the purity of losing. You play to win.

If you're not in it to win it then stay home.

I want someone who will fight to the death.

590 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:27:49pm

re: #585 loppyd

YEESSSS!

Really there was no one else and I thought that Mitt was head and shoulders superior to Urkel. A Mitt/Rudy ticket would have been great, it would have put NY, Pa, Ct, NJ, Ohio, Fl in play.

591 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:28:09pm

re: #587 loppyd

So when it came down to that moment alone in the voting booth it was that that trumped all other issues?

That has trumped all other issues for me for 8 years now.

592 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:28:14pm

re: #589 loppyd

If you're not in it to win it then stay home.

I want someone who will fight to the death.

unfortunately GW Bush was not a fighter.

593 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:28:53pm

re: #591 Salamantis

That has trumped all other issues for me for 8 years now.

Thank you. You just proved my point.

594 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:29:12pm

re: #592 Joel

unfortunately GW Bush was not a fighter.

He was at the beginning.

595 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:29:23pm

re: #589 loppyd

If you're not in it to win it then stay home.

I want someone who will fight to the death.

Umm...McCain almost literally died from fighting for our country.

596 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:29:48pm

re: #590 Joel

Really there was no one else and I thought that Mitt was head and shoulders superior to Urkel. A Mitt/Rudy ticket would have been great, it would have put NY, Pa, Ct, NJ, Ohio, Fl in play.

Romney/Sanford 2012

597 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:30:41pm

re: #595 Salamantis

Umm...McCain almost literally died from fighting for our country.

Do you really need me to spell it out for you that I meant in a campaign or are you trying to start shit?

598 nyc redneck  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:31:01pm

re: #522 Joel

Giuliani (my mayor) was a tough law & order guy, a guy who was not afraid to stand up to the municipal unions, and a guy who understood that taxing the most productive people in the city would only drive them out. If I were a jihadi I would much prefer a limp wristed metrosexual like Obama then a Giuliani.

just contrast the behavior of giuliani towards the thugs like arafat and the shiek
w/ the 10 million dollar check( that got thrown in his face) to o's bowing and scraping to the jihadis and his begging them to please be nice because america will apologize and bend over backwards to pretend they are decent people and not savages who really want to annihilate us. of course the barbarians prefer o.
his behavior is interpreted by them as weak and stupid.

599 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:31:05pm

re: #593 loppyd

Thank you. You just proved my point.

That's no reason to vote for that Disco Institute ass kising Jindal, though; he doesn't know fuck-all about national security or defence.

600 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:31:18pm

re: #594 loppyd

He was at the beginning.

The constant barrage of vicious attacks and ridicule I think broke him. Too bad, a sincerely, good man (and I had a lot of issues with him)

601 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:34:17pm

re: #597 loppyd

Do you really need me to spell it out for you that I meant in a campaign or are you trying to start shit?

I'm just pointing out that he was a fighter for years, when it was life or death for him.

And I hope Jack Wheeler, who viciously slandered McCain with the accusation that he collaborated with the Cong in return for prostitute visits, ends up in prison with a 320 lb roommate named Bubba.

602 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:34:27pm

re: #599 Salamantis

That's no reason to vote for that Disco Institute ass kising Jindal, though; he doesn't know fuck-all about national security or defence.

I will bet that Bobby Jindal knows a lot more about natiional defense and foreign affairs then Urkel does (who gets his talking points from Andrew Sullivan). By the way I am not a Jindalbot in case you are wondering.
I do not believe that Jindal would go to Euroep and trash his own country or would throw $925 million to Hamas run Gaza? I doubt that Jindal would be referring to Iran as The Islamic Republic of Iran. Urkel has come across like a major league moron on foreign and defense issues. Even Sarkozy said he was a light weight. Urkel has this sick need to be adualted.

603 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:34:39pm

re: #600 Joel

The constant barrage of vicious attacks and ridicule I think broke him. Too bad, a sincerely, good man (and I had a lot of issues with him)

He started to mail it in. It's hard for me to say that, but it's true.

604 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:36:42pm

re: #601 Salamantis

I'm just pointing out that he was a fighter for years, when it was life or death for him.

And I hope Jack Wheeler, who viciously slandered McCain with the accusation that he collaborated with the Cong in return for prostitute visits, ends up in prison with a 320 lb roommate named Bubba.

I don't need a lesson on McCain's heroism.

He lost his fight during the campaign.

Two examples:

Rev Wright off limits
Bill Ayers off limits

605 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:37:02pm

re: #603 loppyd

He started to mail it in. It's hard for me to say that, but it's true.

Sometimes even the toughest people can only take so much. Urkel is such a wuss that he cries whenever Rush Limbaugh says anything. Well MSNBC, CNN, Newsweek, Washington Post, ABC, CBS, NY Times et al attacked Bush far worse the Rush ever attacked him.

606 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:38:09pm

re: #605 Joel

Sometimes even the toughest people can only take so much. Urkel is such a wuss that he cries whenever Rush Limbaugh says anything. Well MSNBC, CNN, Newsweek, Washington Post, ABC, CBS, NY Times et al attacked Bush far worse the Rush ever attacked him.

The man could have found a cure for cancer and they would have either ignored it or found fault with it.

607 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:38:51pm

re: #602 Joel

I will bet that Bobby Jindal knows a lot more about natiional defense and foreign affairs then Urkel does (who gets his talking points from Andrew Sullivan). By the way I am not a Jindalbot in case you are wondering.
I do not believe that Jindal would go to Euroep and trash his own country or would throw $925 million to Hamas run Gaza? I doubt that Jindal would be referring to Iran as The Islamic Republic of Iran. Urkel has come across like a major league moron on foreign and defense issues. Even Sarkozy said he was a light weight. Urkel has this sick need to be adualted.

I'd even rather have Cankles as Prez than The One. That gal has steel teeth.

But I'd far prefer McCain, or Giuliani, or Romney, to either of them. And voted that way.

608 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:41:14pm

re: #607 Salamantis

I'd even rather have Cankles as Prez than The One. That gal has steel teeth.

But I'd far prefer McCain, or Giuliani, or Romney, to either of them. And voted that way.

See, we found something to agree about. I despise her, but I would have preferred her over Barry.

Romney then Giuliani then McCain as a last resort.

609 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:41:17pm

re: #606 loppyd

The man could have found a cure for cancer and they would have either ignored it or found fault with it.

He liberated 50 million people, in two countries, from two totalitarian regimes, and they'll remain grateful. At least most of them will.

610 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:42:40pm

I have to eat some dinner so I can take my drugs.

Later.

611 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:42:48pm

re: #607 Salamantis

Remember how the Left kept saying what an embarrassment Bush was overseas? Well I cringed every time I saw Urkel overseas bowing to the Saudis, apologizing to people whom we liberated with our blood, giving inappropriate gifts to Gordon Brown and Queen Elizabeth, . Never once did he talk up the greatness of circuitry. It is almost as if he wants to make the USA just one other country, no different then Belgium

612 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:44:20pm

re: #608 loppyd

See, we found something to agree about. I despise her, but I would have preferred her over Barry.

Romney then Giuliani then McCain as a last resort.

Giuliani was the best antijihadi candidate (his experiences after 9-11 stiffened his spine, and he showed it by rejecting that 10 mil check), but Romney would be the best choice to oversee our financial predicament.

613 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:44:48pm

One thing before I go, David Frum needs to STFU.

614 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:45:15pm

re: #611 Joel

Remember how the Left kept saying what an embarrassment Bush was overseas? Well I cringed every time I saw Urkel overseas bowing to the Saudis, apologizing to people whom we liberated with our blood, giving inappropriate gifts to Gordon Brown and Queen Elizabeth, . Never once did he talk up the greatness of circuitry. It is almost as if he wants to make the USA just one other country, no different then Belgium

He's Carter with a tan.

615 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:48:34pm

re: #612 Salamantis

Giuliani was the best antijihadi candidate (his experiences after 9-11 stiffened his spine, and he showed it by rejecting that 10 mil check), but Romney would be the best choice to oversee our financial predicament.

I have to agree with you.

616 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:49:53pm

re: #604 loppyd

I don't need a lesson on McCain's heroism.

He lost his fight during the campaign.

Two examples:

Rev Wright off limits
Bill Ayers off limits

He tried to fight a cage match by Marquise of Queensbury rules, and genteeled himself right outta the race.

But saying the economy was fundamentally sound days before the crash didn't help matters. He came off as economically clueless. Till he did that, he was ahead.

617 TheSextons  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:52:21pm

re: #609 Salamantis

He liberated 50 million people, in two countries, from two totalitarian regimes, and they'll remain grateful. At least most of them will.

Bush was fiscally reckless. And he lacked the courage or was too proud to change course in Iraq when it was obvious that the course needed to be changed. His actions, and his horse manure "compassionate conservatism" concoction, are what have brought the GOP to the point that international papers are publishing articles entitled "the incredible shrinking elephant."

The GOP is not losing support because they've driven moderates from the "big tent." The GOP is on the brink of permanent obscurity because they abandoned bedrock conservative values: fiscal responsibility and a limited federal government.

618 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:53:05pm

PIMF - "greatness of circuitry" should be "greatness of this country"

Anyway I've cold chicken waiting for me.

619 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:54:36pm

re: #616 Salamantis

Funny how an Obama cabinet appointee (some woman whose name escapes me) also later said that the economy was fundamentally sound too.

620 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:56:44pm

re: #613 loppyd

One thing before I go, David Frum needs to STFU.

Is that guy still with National Review or did he run off with RINO's Christopher Buckley, Kathleen Parker and Peggy Noonan to form David and Chris and Kathleen and Peggy?

621 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:57:20pm

re: #619 Joel

Funny how an Obama cabinet appointee (some woman whose name escapes me) also later said that the economy was fundamentally sound too.

Christina Romer.

622 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:57:57pm

re: #606 loppyd

The man could have found a cure for cancer and they would have either ignored it or found fault with it.

They still would have referred to him as a moron.

623 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:58:09pm

re: #617 TheSextons

Bush was fiscally reckless. And he lacked the courage or was too proud to change course in Iraq when it was obvious that the course needed to be changed. His actions, and his horse manure "compassionate conservatism" concoction, are what have brought the GOP to the point that international papers are publishing articles entitled "the incredible shrinking elephant."

He had two disasters (9-11, Katrina) and two wars to pay for. But you're right about Iraq; he was too loyal to Rumsfeld, and listened to his counsel too long, when he should have been listening to McCain, and surging much earlier.

The GOP is not losing support because they've driven moderates from the "big tent." The GOP is on the brink of permanent obscurity because they abandoned bedrock conservative values: fiscal responsibility and a limited federal government.

Socon values are not bedrock conservative values; they intrude government into peoples' private lives and bedrooms as much as the Dems intrude themselves into peoples' wallets and boardrooms.

I want the government out of all three.

624 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:58:38pm

re: #622 Joel

They still would have referred to him as a moron.

For not finding a cure faster.

625 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 4:59:33pm

re: #620 Joel

Is that guy still with National Review or did he run off with RINO's Christopher Buckley, Kathleen Parker and Peggy Noonan to form David and Chris and Kathleen and Peggy?

IIRC he still has a blog on NRO.

Noonan has disappointed me greatly.

626 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:00:56pm

re: #621 loppyd

Christina Romer.

Thanks. I knew it was a woman. OF course all of O'Bama's gaffes were never spoken about - bumping his head on the airplane, 57 states, the false Churchill quote, the DVD's from the wrong region, the iPod of his speeches to Queen Elizabeth, the Uncle who liberated Auschwitz (not unless he was in the Red Army) etc etc.

627 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:01:25pm

re: #624 loppyd

For not finding a cure faster.

LOL or enriching Halliburton.

628 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:02:40pm

re: #625 loppyd

IIRC he still has a blog on NRO.

Noonan has disappointed me greatly.

I never cared for Peggy Noonan and all her school girl sighing over Obama.She also wanted to literally have his baby (as did Chris Matthews and Andrew Sullivan).

629 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:02:58pm

re: #625 loppyd

IIRC he still has a blog on NRO.

Noonan has disappointed me greatly.

The only columnists I really respect are Krauthammer and Hanson, and the only field reporters I respect are Totten and Yon.

630 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:06:13pm

re: #623 Salamantis

He had two disasters (9-11, Katrina) and two wars to pay for. But you're right about Iraq; he was too loyal to Rumsfeld, and listened to his counsel too long, when he should have been listening to McCain, and surging much earlier.

Katrina was a a disaster but a good part of the fault lay with the Mayor (Ray Negron) and Governor (Kathleen Blanco). He was loyal towards incompetents and they repaid him with gross ingratitude - Scott McClellan, George Tenet, Alberto Gonzales, Colin Powell, Michael Brown, Harriet Miers, that Bush loyalty was pesonally admirable but politically it was disastrous.

631 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:09:44pm

re: #626 Joel

Thanks. I knew it was a woman. OF course all of O'Bama's gaffes were never spoken about - bumping his head on the airplane, 57 states, the false Churchill quote, the DVD's from the wrong region, the iPod of his speeches to Queen Elizabeth, the Uncle who liberated Auschwitz (not unless he was in the Red Army) etc etc.

Michelle's $500 sneakers...

632 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:10:25pm

re: #628 Joel

I never cared for Peggy Noonan and all her school girl sighing over Obama.She also wanted to literally have his baby (as did Chris Matthews and Andrew Sullivan).

She is an elitist to the core.

Her breathy speech is tedious.

633 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:11:19pm

re: #631 loppyd

"Inflate your tires".

634 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:12:16pm

re: #633 Joel

"Inflate your tires".

Arugula

635 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:12:52pm

re: #632 loppyd

She is an elitist to the core.

Her breathy speech is tedious.

I just wish she would stop being referred toas a conservative. She is no such thing. She sighs a lot that's for sure. Anyway got to go on the treadmill soon. Great speaking to you.

636 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:14:45pm

re: #634 loppyd

Arugula

The very first phone call to a foreign leader as POTUS - to Mahmnoud Abbas of all people. Too bad Arafat is dead otherwise he would have had that honor. Also the Israeli Army chief of staff came to DC to talk about the Iranian threat and was totally dissed. Who eleceted this idiot? (Not I)

637 TheSextons  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:15:29pm

re: #623 Salamantis

He had two disasters (9-11, Katrina) and two wars to pay for. But you're right about Iraq; he was too loyal to Rumsfeld, and listened to his counsel too long, when he should have been listening to McCain, and surging much earlier.


I understand the extraordinary spending re: disasters and war.

I do not understand Bush's compassionate conservatism ideology that led to prescription drug benefits and social engineering on housing ownership through Freddie/Fannie, TARP and stimuli (fiscally reckless), and no child left behind (more federal government intrusion into matters that should be left to local and state governments).


re: #623 Salamantis

Socon values are not bedrock conservative values; they intrude government into peoples' private lives and bedrooms as much as the Dems intrude themselves into peoples' wallets and boardrooms.

I want the government out of all three.

I agree that, by and large, "Socon values" are not bedrock conservative values. I think in large part they run contrary to bedrock conservative values. However, abortion is another matter. I don't say this because I believe governments should be regulating birth control. I say this for two reasons:

(1) This is a Rule of Law issue. The Constitution must be interpreted as written, not as we wish it were written. Roe v. Wade stands for much more than abortion. It stands for the enshrinement of uncodified rights in the Constitution that serve to diminish state sovereignty. States are sovereign and have general police powers. The federal government, and the Constitution for that matter, has no role in the abortion issue.

(2) After viability (at the latest), abortion is no longer a simple matter of birth control, it is a question of the protection of human life - which state governments are empowered to protect.

But, in general, I agree that "Socon" values have done great damage to American conservatism. Huckabee was the worst manifestation of the pseudo-conservative "Socon" movement. Huckabee's candidacy was nothing more than a leftist/populist movement with a sprinkling of Bible-friendly rhetoric. Who would have ever thought that a GOP candidate who claims to be conservative would call certain people's salaries "immoral"?

638 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:16:20pm

re: #635 Joel

I just wish she would stop being referred toas a conservative. She is no such thing. She sighs a lot that's for sure. Anyway got to go on the treadmill soon. Great speaking to you.

You too.

Treadmill? Good boy!

639 Joel  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:19:05pm

re: #638 loppyd

You too.

Treadmill? Good boy!

I will speak to you later or tomorrow. Always great to see you

640 loppyd  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:19:27pm

re: #637 TheSextons

Thank you for putting the word that shall not be uttered in quotes.

LOL

Pasta ready. Drugs await.

Really gone now.

641 Bill Dalasio  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:24:58pm

re: #461 Charles

I do get your point. And essentially agree. However, when the advocates of free and honest inquiry start talking about children as resources to arrive at an end rather individuals free to arrive at their own conclusions and thoughts, they abandon the very basis of their argument.

642 ladycatnip  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:25:38pm

#553 Salamantis

Yep. Because antiabortion Repubs in the South shunned him on Super Tuesday.

I think had he run a better campaign, had more money, and managed to keep his new wife out of the media, he may have had a chance. Every Christian I know was pulling for him - believing national security trumped the abortion issue.

643 Salamantis  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:33:55pm

re: #641 Bill Dalasio

I do get your point. And essentially agree. However, when the advocates of free and honest inquiry start talking about children as resources to arrive at an end rather individuals free to arrive at their own conclusions and thoughts, they abandon the very basis of their argument.

Children are not truly free to soundly arrive at their own reasoned conclusions if they have been indoctrinated in dogmatic religious premises camoflaged as consequences derived from empirical science.

Garbage in, garbage out; if the premises are faulty, the logic can be flawless, and the conclusions will still be flawed.

644 funky chicken  Mon, May 4, 2009 5:34:25pm

re: #566 Joel

My side lost because George W. Bush (unfairly) had made the Republican tag toxic, because of the over whelming media bias that refused to investigate Obama's background, because of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd's fucking up Fannie and Freddie, because a lot of guilt ridden people wanted the novelty of voting for a Black man despite his skimpy back ground, and the GOP nominated a Democrat Lite, a guy who pretty much disdained Republicans. It is amazing he lost by only 6 -7 % points.

Did McCain disdain undeserving republicans (like pork kings Trent Lott and Thad Cochran) or did the pork king republicans disdain McCain?

Limbaugh has spent the last 9 years savaging McCain, and a whole lot of Limbaugh's extremely skewed opinions of McCain have become somehow accepted as factual information.

It's an important point, because if the GOP wants to win elections, the fantasies of a single blowhard can't determine how republican voters perceive our candidate.

645 slartybartfast  Mon, May 4, 2009 6:23:45pm

re: #229 Zimriel

I said, "thoughtful," not "accurate"!

Personally, I think the idea that Republicans need to be more "moderate" is a myth perpetuated by the media to weaken the party.

IMHO, the Republican Party should embrace conservative ideals and "the devil take the hindmost." Conservatism WINS--if only someone would speak up for it clearly and without apology.

No, I don't agree with this particular writer but there is some good analysis coming from not-so-ignorant foreigners in the UK and Canada. But from the U.S. media? Not so much...

646 Joel  Tue, May 5, 2009 5:48:24am

re: #644 funky chicken

Rush Limbaugh is a radio talk show host if you have not figured that one out. McCain got in because the GOP primary voter is obsessed with "the next in line" crap. In their minds McCain had paid his dues and was next in line for the nomination.

If Limbaugh called the shots in the GOP do you think for one moment a political turd like McCain would have come any where the nomination?

647 loppyd  Tue, May 5, 2009 6:33:10am

re: #644 funky chicken

Did McCain disdain undeserving republicans (like pork kings Trent Lott and Thad Cochran) or did the pork king republicans disdain McCain?

Limbaugh has spent the last 9 years savaging McCain, and a whole lot of Limbaugh's extremely skewed opinions of McCain have become somehow accepted as factual information.

It's an important point, because if the GOP wants to win elections, the fantasies of a single blowhard can't determine how republican voters perceive our candidate.

McCain has one person to blame for his loss and he need not look any further than the closest mirror to figure out who that person is.

648 Salamantis  Tue, May 5, 2009 3:19:02pm

re: #646 Joel

Rush Limbaugh is a radio talk show host if you have not figured that one out. McCain got in because the GOP primary voter is obsessed with "the next in line" crap. In their minds McCain had paid his dues and was next in line for the nomination.

If Limbaugh called the shots in the GOP do you think for one moment a political turd like McCain would have come any where the nomination?

It would seem that you consider anyone evenremotely approaching the sensible center to be a turd. However, turds generally inhabit the gutter sewers on either extreme edge of the political road. Alan Keyes, Ron Paul, and Dennis Kucinich are cases in point.


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
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