The Breakdown of the ‘Special Relationship’

Middle East • Views: 4,858

No surprise from me over this news; during the campaign, Barack Obama’s ties to numerous radical Palestinians and leftists made it very clear that this was in the cards if he were elected: Jerusalem worried over breakdown of U.S.-Israel cooperation under Obama.

Obama’s foreign policy plan seems to be to reach out diplomatically to America’s worst enemies, and shun America’s best friends.

Senior officials in Jerusalem expressed concern recently over the sharp decline in the coordination between Israel and the United States on security and state affairs since President Barack Obama’s entered the White House and especially since the formation of Israel’s new government.

Senior White House officials told their Israeli counterparts that Obama will demand Netanyahu completely suspend construction in the settlements, the officials said. “Obama’s people brief their Israeli counterparts in advance much less about security and Middle East policy activities than the Bush administration used to,” the officials said.

In addition, when they do brief Israeli officials, they don’t consult with them or coordinate their statements in advance. This has caused several coordination “malfunctions” between the two states in the past two months, they said.

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454 comments
1 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:31:48am

Obama will try to turn Israel into another South Africa.

2 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:32:26am

re: #1 Ward Cleaver

Obama will try to turn Israel into another South Africa Auschwitz.

3 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:32:52am
4 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:33:31am

re: #2 Alouette

That too.

5 MrSilverDragon  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:33:55am

I'm waiting for Avanti's spin of hope on this one...

6 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:34:01am

Obama reminds me of a little kid who just can't stand it if he isn't popular with everyone he knows. In order to curry favor with bullies and users he neglects his friends and the end result it he ends up with no real friends and is a permenant hanger on and toady for the bullies.

The problem is he's dragging 300,000,000 US citizens and billions of other free people down with him.

7 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:34:11am

It is becoming all too obvious that Israel is approaching her Red Dawn moment.

8 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:34:29am

Israel is on her own now. God bless her.

9 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:35:05am

re: #5 MrSilverDragon

I'm waiting for Avanti's spin of hope on this one...

Don't worry; he'll mealy-mouth something.

10 albusteve  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:35:27am

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

It is becoming all too obvious that Israel is approaching her Red Dawn moment.

so is BO imo

11 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:35:29am

We documented it, we tried to show people, but they failed to listen. As Mandy has so elequently stated in the past,

I HOPE ALL OF YOU WHO THOUGHT JOHN MCCAIN WAS NOT CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH ARE FUCKING HAPPY NOW!

12 samsgran1948  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:35:30am

And if you really want to throw up, read the comments on the article.

13 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:35:41am

re: #3 Iron Fist

Obama is not a friend to Israel. After all that has happened, it is simply not credible to believe that he doesn't know who he is getting in bed with.

Of course he knows; so do they. Remember the Gazan phone banks for Barry? I do, and the very fact of their existence was enough to set off every possible alarm bell I own.

Here, let's see what Al Jazeera had to say about it:

14 Pupdawg  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:35:54am

Are we surprised yet?

15 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:36:06am

re: #6 DaddyG

Obama reminds me of a little kid who just can't stand it if he isn't popular with everyone he knows. In order to curry favor with bullies and users he neglects his friends and the end result it he ends up with no real friends and is a permenant hanger on and toady for the bullies.

The problem is he's dragging 300,000,000 US citizens and billions of other free people down with him.

I sometimes think O wouldn't mind seeing the world go up in flames if he could only be assured all of the few survivors left worshiped him.

16 MacDuff  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:36:29am

Obamaspeak is right out of an Orwell novel; "Friend" is "Enemy", "Enemy" is "Friend", not to mention saving $17 billion outweighs spending $3 trillion.

So, Obama voters; how's the Messiah working out for you?

17 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:36:38am

re: #12 samsgran1948

And if you really want to throw up, read the comments on the article.

No thanks, it's lunch time. BBIAB.

18 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:36:46am

...of course making nice with Israel won't allow The One to proclaim "we have achieved peace in our time."

19 Occasional Reader  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:37:09am
The who point is to give Netanyahu a demand that he can't possibly meet, so that his subsequent refusal can be used as a pretext for degrading ties.

Mere Rhetoric nails it.

This is scary stuff.

20 pat  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:37:20am

Obama is delusional. He believes what he thinks must come true. His narcissistic personality does not allow for reality. And then there is the new threat of the Thug-In-Chief. "You don't want to get me mad." That the American people would put up with this is scary.

21 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:37:33am
22 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:37:43am

re: #11 Honorary Yooper You owe mandy some karma. But well quoted anyway! ;-)

23 crown_of_feathers  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:37:47am

Gee, think that moron Sarah Silverman will be "schlepping" over to the White House to talk to her buddy?

24 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:37:54am

re: #5 MrSilverDragon

I'm waiting for Avanti's spin of hope on this one...

No offense, but I ain't. Old regurgitated vomit is all it will be.

25 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:38:36am

re: #20 pat

This is how things are done in politics in Illinois. Welcome to Chicago-style politics writ large.

26 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:38:47am

I still want to see the video the LA Times is holding.

27 Occasional Reader  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:38:53am

One immediate result of this "lack of coordination" I can forsee: Supposedly when Israel hit that Syrian nuclear program site last year, the US had something to do with Syria's radar system suddenly "going dark" prior to the strike (IIRC). That sort of cooperation will not happen again... at least not before January 2013.

28 FQ Kafir  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:39:11am

Seems like our leader is fanning the flames of an already incendiary Middle East.

29 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:39:16am

re: #22 DaddyG

You owe mandy some karma. But well quoted anyway! ;-)

Heh. As always. :-)
Mandy's not here in this thread right now, so someone had to quote her.

30 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:39:25am

re: #19 Occasional Reader

Mere Rhetoric nails it.

This is scary stuff.

Cloward-Piven stuff.

31 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:39:31am

re: #12 samsgran1948

And if you really want to throw up, read the comments on the article.

It's at Haaretz. They always have batshit commenters there.

32 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:40:29am

re: #16 MacDuff

Obamaspeak is right out of an Orwell novel; "Friend" is "Enemy", "Enemy" is "Friend", not to mention saving $17 billion outweighs spending $3 trillion.

So, Obama voters; how's the Messiah working out for you?

The $17 billion is to include removing funds for paying states the cost of jailing illegals.

When is the next 15 Minute Hate?

33 slterry40  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:40:42am

George W. Bush supported Israel, so Israel must be a really evil place.

34 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:41:08am

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

I still want to see the video the LA Times is holding.

I'll give you the Debtor's Blessing: May you live to see it.

35 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:41:23am
36 daledog  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:41:24am

re: #11 Honorary Yooper

I hope all you people who thought that Sarah Palin was not smart enough to be VP are happy now!

37 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:41:37am

While BHO gives short shrift to an ally, friend, and one of two (Iraq now the second) democracies in the middle east.

Our common enemies continue to strengthen themselves.

Despite U.S. Outreach, Syria Affirms Iran Ties

U.S. officials ought not to have been surprised by the smiling solidarity between Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Iranian President Mahmoud Amadinejad in Damascus on Tuesday — but they may, nonetheless, have been disappointed. Sure, Iran is Syria's closest ally, and the two countries form the core of what's sometimes called the "Rejectionist Crescent" — the arc of countries and groups from Tehran to Gaza that stand against American and Israeli power — but the Obama Administration hopes to change that. It has launched a diplomatic outreach to Damascus aimed at weakening its ties to Tehran and its support for militant groups in Lebanon and the Palestinians, but there was no sign of progress on that front in Thursday's Assad-Ahmadinead press conference, where the two leaders beamingly reaffirmed support for one another, and for the likes of Hamas and Hizballah.
38 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:41:40am

re: #23 crown_of_feathers

Gee, think that moron Sarah Silverman will be "schlepping" over to the White House to talk to her buddy?

Little Miss Douchenozzle will be "schlepping" over to the White House to fellate her buddy.

39 LGoPs  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:41:42am

And this is a surprise? This information, even though downplayed by the MFM, was out there before the election.
There are none so blind as those that are unwilling to see.

40 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:42:08am
41 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:42:29am

Rahm Emmanuel: the administration's Judas Goat

42 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:42:33am

re: #32 FurryOldGuyJeans

The $17 billion is to include removing funds for paying states the cost of jailing illegals.

When is the next 15 Minute Hate?

How much longer do you suppose they'll be illegal? Eh, you hadn't considered that, had you, but just maybe there's an amnesty in the wind.

I realize that a conventional amnesty wouldn't confer legal status on alien criminals, but these days, nothing surprises me anymore.

43 brookly red  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:42:33am

I would think that there would be another "power" out there that would very much like to get a toe hold in the ME, and maybe even put their thumb in our eye at the same time. I think O's back-stabbing of Israel
may be and invitation to others to increase their sphere of influence.

44 LGoPs  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:43:14am

Come on! Give the man a break. Obama's busy focusing on the real enemy..........the producers who make this country run.
/

45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:43:29am

The best friends already like us...so, why bother.
-Barack Obama

46 ilzito guacamolito  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:43:38am

re: #35 taxfreekiller


Democrats can not even spell,, fiduciary.

There is no call for that kind of talk.

47 Occasional Reader  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:43:41am

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

Pravda:

How the US may destroy Israel? - By proxy!

Barack Obama: The Hudna-Sucker Proxy.

(It's a good day at LGF when I can use the same pun in two threads, in context.)

48 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:43:41am

James Taranto at OpinionJournal ("A Method to Obama's Madness?") points out that the (probably unintentional) side effect of Obama throwing Israel over for Iran and Hamas is a sudden interest on the part of moderate Arab nations in making peace with Israel (most likely so that Israel can then focus on knocking out Iran's nuke program).

That also directly contradicts the stated position of the Obama Administration that the Arab countries will only help Israel deal with Iran if Israel first makes concessions to the Palestinians. In fact, it seems that the moderate Arab countries are ready to beat up on the Palestinians to make a peace deal that frees up Israel's defense forces to deal with Iran.

49 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:43:53am

And, while I can't find the articles now, even the Saudis don't like Obama's approach to Iran.
Obama sent Biden to reassure them.
I wonder if the sheiks are looking for places to run now.

50 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:44:09am

re: #44 LGoPs

Come on! Give the man a break. Obama's busy focusing on the real enemy..........the producers who make this country run.
/

Yeah, we who believe in freedom are a creepy lot to O and his worshipers.

51 zeebeach  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:44:11am

re: #10 albusteve

so is BO imo

This is really bad. I'm not surprised, but I am afraid we're not responding quickly/strongly enough.

52 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:44:37am

re: #32 FurryOldGuyJeans Obama better get to work on the High Speed Train. There's no more room under the bus to throw anyone. /

53 JohnnyReb  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:44:45am

I honestly hope that no comes out and says they did not see this coming. It was out there in plain view from day 1.

54 MrSilverDragon  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:45:53am

re: #24 FurryOldGuyJeans

No offense, but I ain't. Old regurgitated vomit is all it will be.

I did notice I forgot the sarc tag. My bad.

55 Baier  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:45:56am

I worked with an Israeli Obama supporter that said his anti-Israel stance was a fantasy of the right. I wish I could find her ask her how she feels about it now...

56 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:46:47am

re: #42 Guanxi88

How much longer do you suppose they'll be illegal? Eh, you hadn't considered that, had you, but just maybe there's an amnesty in the wind.

I realize that a conventional amnesty wouldn't confer legal status on alien criminals, but these days, nothing surprises me anymore.

The moment I saw the headline, even before I read the body text, I knew this was yet another step towards amnesty. O can't ignore any potential, significant bloc of voters worshipers.

57 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:47:07am

re: #48 stuiec

James Taranto at OpinionJournal ("A Method to Obama's Madness?") points out that the (probably unintentional) side effect of Obama throwing Israel over for Iran and Hamas is a sudden interest on the part of moderate Arab nations in making peace with Israel (most likely so that Israel can then focus on knocking out Iran's nuke program).

That also directly contradicts the stated position of the Obama Administration that the Arab countries will only help Israel deal with Iran if Israel first makes concessions to the Palestinians. In fact, it seems that the moderate Arab countries are ready to beat up on the Palestinians to make a peace deal that frees up Israel's defense forces to deal with Iran.

Yes, the Saudis really don't care about the Palestinians; they're just using them. And they'll screw them to save their own skins from Iranian nukes.

58 LGoPs  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:47:23am

re: #55 Baier

I worked with an Israeli Obama supporter that said his anti-Israel stance was a fantasy of the right. I wish I could find her ask her how she feels about it now...

Obama really is a fiendish devil. He was smart enough to hide his views in plain sight.......
/

59 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:47:34am

re: #36 daledog

I hope all you people who thought that Sarah Palin was not smart enough to be VP are happy now!

Alternative History Media Coverage:

McCain & Palin gorge on gourmet burgers while thousands lose their jobs.

President John McCain and Vice President Sarah Palin, wearing a $4000 designer dress suit, and $545 dress pumps displayed again their arrogance and tone deaf pattern. While many are losing their jobs and worrying about their next meal, took an entourage out for burger to attempt to demonstrate economic stimulus.
60 avanti  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:47:39am

re: #5 MrSilverDragon

I'm waiting for Avanti's spin of hope on this one...

No spin, just a different opinion. While I agree the US must support Israel, we should not support new settlements, or settlement expansion in occupied territories. It's disingenuous to say on one hand that you are working for a two state solution while expanding settlements that will later have to be abandoned in a possible peace agreement.
The "perception" in the Arab world has been that we have not been a honest broker when it comes to our middle east relations. The Plali's may never accept even a sweetheart, but we need to keep trying IMHO.
There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal, we just don't know how much.

61 JustABill  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:47:49am

re: #22 DaddyG

You owe mandy some karma. But well quoted anyway! ;-)

I'd love to know how much karma, mandy racked up with that statement, Everytime I see it its always double digits...

62 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:47:59am

re: #58 LGoPs

Obama really is a fiendish devil. He was smart enough to hide his views in plain sight.......
/

He had a lot of help from the MFMSM.

63 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:48:35am

re: #54 MrSilverDragon

I did notice I forgot the sarc tag. My bad.

I thought as much, but decided to make sure. ;)

But I sure wouldn't want to deprive the man the ability to spew here. We need the entertainment.

64 FrogMarch  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:48:48am

Obama attended 20 years of Jew-hating Crazy Church.
Totally ignored my the DNC-MSM.

65 Baier  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:49:23am

re: #58 LGoPs

Obama really is a fiendish devil. He was smart enough to hide his views in plain sight.......
/

People see what they want. It the smart people that recognize their delusion.

66 Pupdawg  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:49:27am

If this guy isn't a modern-day Manchurian candidate who happened to win, I don't know who is?
Will the MSM ever wake-up and do their jobs? I can see 4 to 8 years down the road with this guy and nothing or no one to really challenge him. According to the MSM and plenty of others, he can do no wrong when he continually does wrong. How long will it take for us to hear almost unprecedented 3rd term talk for this guy or a Chavez-type rule because of all the crisis in the country?
This stuff makes me want to puke!

67 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:49:28am

re: #60 avanti

No spin, just a different opinion. While I agree the US must support Israel, we should not support new settlements, or settlement expansion in occupied territories. It's disingenuous to say on one hand that you are working for a two state solution while expanding settlements that will later have to be abandoned in a possible peace agreement.
The "perception" in the Arab world has been that we have not been a honest broker when it comes to our middle east relations. The Plali's may never accept even a sweetheart, but we need to keep trying IMHO.
There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal, we just don't know how much.

How about pressing the Palis to accept the right of Israel to accept as a Jewish state? To them "occupied territories" includes all of Israel. You cannot make peace with people who don't recognize your right to exist.

68 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:49:36am

re: #60 avanti

Yup, spin to DA MAX. Predictable.

69 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:49:58am

The inversion of reality is going full tilt Bizarro World.

70 CIA Reject  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:50:11am

re: #59 jcm

Good start, but you need to work in something from the cholesterol/healthcare/childhood obesity angle. Oh, and don't forget global warming ...

:-)

71 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:50:11am

re: #61 JustABill

I'd love to know how much karma, mandy racked up with that statement, Everytime I see it its always double digits...

Between that and the thread where she admitted she still fits in her High School cheerleading outfit... well - the woman is Karma Gold.

72 MacDuff  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:50:12am

re: #32 FurryOldGuyJeans

The $17 billion is to include removing funds for paying states the cost of jailing illegals.

When is the next 15 Minute Hate?

Maybe the ONE can just change that nasty "Illegal" word to "Undocumented Citizens" and "the problem" ceases to be a problem.

73 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:50:21am

re: #64 FrogMarch

Obama attended 20 years of Jew-hating Crazy Church.
Totally ignored my the DNC-MSM.

Marxist Liberation Theology Jew-hating Crazy Church.

FIFY.

74 Occasional Reader  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:50:46am

re: #60 avanti

The Plali's may never accept even a sweetheart, but we need to keep trying IMHO.

So... we need to keep getting Israel to give up concessions - including compromising its security in ways that absolutely guarantee a steady body count of murdered Jews - in pursuit of a totally illusory "peace deal" with the Palis. We need to engage in this utter madness, so that we can feel good about "trying".

Got it.

I see (once again) why you're an Obama supporter.

75 JustABill  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:51:11am

re: #58 LGoPs

Obama really is a fiendish devil. He was smart enough to hide his views in plain sight.......
/

How could he be anti-Israel, he said he wants Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel. Unless of course that would upset the Palis.

76 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:51:14am

re: #60 avanti

No spin, just a different opinion. While I agree the US must support Israel, we should not support new settlements, or settlement expansion in occupied territories. It's disingenuous to say on one hand that you are working for a two state solution while expanding settlements that will later have to be abandoned in a possible peace agreement.
The "perception" in the Arab world has been that we have not been a honest broker when it comes to our middle east relations. The Plali's may never accept even a sweetheart, but we need to keep trying IMHO.
There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal, we just don't know how much.

Jewish settlements are not the problem. Arabs who wish to destroy Israel are the problem.

In August 2005 all Jewish settlements were removed from Gaza. How did that work out, hmm?

77 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:51:19am

re: #66 Pupdawg

If this guy isn't a modern-day Manchurian candidate who happened to win, I don't know who is?
Will the MSM ever wake-up and do their jobs? I can see 4 to 8 years down the road with this guy and nothing or no one to really challenge him. According to the MSM and plenty of others, he can do no wrong when he continually does wrong. How long will it take for us to hear almost unprecedented 3rd term talk for this guy or a Chavez-type rule because of all the crisis in the country?
This stuff makes me want to puke!

The MFMSM is already discrediting the Republicans. By the next election, the MSM will treat only the Democrats as mainstream, everyone else as loonies, like the Libertarians and Communists are treated now.

78 ilzito guacamolito  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:51:53am

re: #47 Occasional Reader

Barack Obama: The Hudna-Sucker Proxy.

(It's a good day at LGF when I can use the same pun in two threads, in context.)

re: #81 ilzito guacamolito

Oh don't Coen me! Obama isn't THAT stupid.


re: #83 Occasional Reader

If you have to take it that Far.. go right ahead.

(Now I feel like a real Fink)


re: #85 ilzito guacamolito

Obama, the President Who Wasn't There.

79 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:51:59am

re: #60 avanti

Hey dip, I don't give a rat's ass what the perception from the Arab Street is.

But continue giving legitimacy to murderers and thugs. I'm sure they will appreciate your support before they kill ya.

80 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:52:13am
81 LGoPs  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:52:41am

re: #77 Kosh's Shadow

The MFMSM is already discrediting the Republicans. By the next election, the MSM will treat only the Democrats as mainstream, everyone else as loonies, like the Libertarians and Communists are treated now.

The MFMSM is Pravda.
And as Pravda they are the enemy of freedom.

82 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:52:50am

re: #72 MacDuff

Maybe the ONE can just change that nasty "Illegal" word to "Undocumented Citizens" and "the problem" ceases to be a problem.

"Undocumented citizens". From one to another. So where is his nirth certificate?
/SARC!

83 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:52:55am

re: #74 Occasional Reader

So... we need to keep getting Israel to give up concessions - including compromising its security in ways that absolutely guarantee a steady body count of murdered Jews - in pursuit of a totally illusory "peace deal" with the Palis. We need to engage in this utter madness, so that we can feel good about "trying".

Got it.

I see (once again) why you're an Obama supporter.

Nice post OR..Wish I could have said it better..But unable to do so..

84 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:53:01am
85 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:53:03am

re: #70 CIA Reject

Good start, but you need to work in something from the cholesterol/healthcare/childhood obesity angle. Oh, and don't forget global warming ...

:-)

LOL!

If we thought BDS was bad, I wonder what MPDS would have looked like.

86 JacksonTn  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:53:34am

re: #60 avanti

Avanti ...

Obama = pochaut ... will not stand up for Israel ...

Avant = cooyan ... blinded by love for Obama ...

Democrats for a long time whisper ... "why do we have to stand for Israel" ... if you have not heard it before Avanti ... you have not been around democrats for very long ... you jumped on the dem train ... I suggest you find out what it is really all about ... blinded by love and/or tradition is not a good thing ... I know ...

87 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:53:36am

re: #75 JustABill

How could he be anti-Israel, he said he wants Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel. Unless of course that would upset the Palis.

He changed his mind the next day. His current plan seems to have Jerusalem divided between Israel, the Palis, and the UN!

88 FrogMarch  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:53:50am

re: #73 jcm

Marxist Liberation Theology Jew-hating Crazy Church.

FIFY.

indeed - thanks.

89 CIA Reject  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:53:55am

re: #85 jcm

LOL!

If we thought BDS was bad, I wonder what MPDS would have looked like.

BDS on steroids!

90 ilzito guacamolito  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:53:58am

re: #60 avanti

No spin, just a different opinion. While I agree the US must support Israel, we should not support new settlements, or settlement expansion in occupied territories. It's disingenuous to say on one hand that you are working for a two state solution while expanding settlements that will later have to be abandoned in a possible peace agreement.
The "perception" in the Arab world has been that we have not been a honest broker when it comes to our middle east relations. The Plali's may never accept even a sweetheart, but we need to keep trying IMHO.
There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal, we just don't know how much.

Oh, help me. That does it for me. I have to get back to work.

91 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:54:23am

re: #85 jcm

LOL!

If we thought BDS was bad, I wonder what MPDS would have looked like.


The worst part is we still get treated to MPDS even though they lost the election. Where is Hillary decrying the mean spiritedness of the politics of destruction now?

92 Occasional Reader  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:54:27am

re: #76 Alouette

In August 2005 all Jewish settlements were removed from Gaza. How did that work out, hmm?

Gaza is now a wonderful paradise of peace and brotherhood... where bon-bons play, on the sunny beach of Peppermint Bay? Lemonade stands everywhere, CrackerJack bands fill the air?

No?

93 avanti  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:54:29am

re: #68 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yup, spin to DA MAX. Predictable.

You asked my opinion, I gave it and will take the down dings and get back to work in the garage.

94 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:54:30am

re: #87 Kosh's Shadow

He changed his mind the next day. His current plan seems to have Jerusalem divided between Israel, the Palis, and the UN!

FTFY

95 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:54:54am

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

What a Poe-seur.

The Purloined Letter! Very nice.

96 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:55:19am

re: #77 Kosh's Shadow

The MFMSM is already discrediting the Republicans. By the next election, the MSM will treat only the Democrats as mainstream, everyone else as loonies, like the Libertarians and Communists are treated now.

This is nothing new, really. The work has been ongoing as long as there has been televised politics. This is only an intensification of the effort since the FMSM now has to compete.

97 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:55:23am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Or another parody:

How many lies can Hamas tell
Before they're forever banned

Apologies to Bob Dylan

98 JustABill  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:55:28am

re: #71 DaddyG

Between that and the thread where she admitted she still fits in her High School cheerleading outfit... well - the woman is Karma Gold.


I missed that thread, did she link to pictures? ;->

99 _RememberTonyC  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:56:06am

rahm emanual = judas iscariot

100 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:56:41am

re: #92 Occasional Reader

Gaza is now a wonderful paradise of peace and brotherhood... where bon-bons play, on the sunny beach of Peppermint Bay? Lemonade stands everywhere, CrackerJack bands fill the air?

No?

Only because the Mean JuiceTM won't allow them to travel in and out of Israel, and transport as much stuff as they want, for whatever purposes they want.

101 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:56:52am

re: #93 avanti

I didn't ask for it, someone else did that. All I said was that I won't stop you from spewing your shit.

102 irongrampa  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:57:05am

But we mustn't wish him to fail.

103 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:57:40am

re: #98 JustABill

I missed that thread, did she link to pictures? ;->

No but we all know she is a size 6p.. what is not to like?
Mandy is one smart cookie also..Good people if you ask me

104 jvic  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:57:40am

What is it going to take to wake up the American Jewish community?

I'm not suggesting that they put Israeli interests ahead of America's. On the contrary, the person who seems cavalier about American interests is Obama.
************
re: #48 stuiec

The Arabs could get both their goals. Let Israel deal with Iran and then watch Obama let a weakened Israel be bled dry by terror.

To put it mildly, this administration has not established a backlog of credibility with me. If I see them doing something that looks appalling, I do not assume they have a valid reason I don't know about.

105 JustABill  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:57:59am

re: #87 Kosh's Shadow

He changed his mind the next day. His current plan seems to have Jerusalem divided between Israel, the Palis, and the UN!


exactly, because it upset the Palis, predictable, but beyond the "O"s ability to forsee.

106 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:58:04am

re: #93 avanti

You asked my opinion, I gave it and will take the down dings and get back to work in the garage.

You got the down dings because your opinion sucks and is contradicted by facts.

107 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:58:07am

re: #98 JustABill

I missed that thread, did she link to pictures? ;->

No. But not for lack of interest. (I'm a married spud, I'm a married spud...)

108 MrSilverDragon  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:58:19am

re: #60 avanti

No spin, just a different opinion. While I agree the US must support Israel, we should not support new settlements, or settlement expansion in occupied territories. It's disingenuous to say on one hand that you are working for a two state solution while expanding settlements that will later have to be abandoned in a possible peace agreement.
The "perception" in the Arab world has been that we have not been a honest broker when it comes to our middle east relations. The Plali's may never accept even a sweetheart, but we need to keep trying IMHO.
There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal, we just don't know how much.

1. The "perception" in the Arab world is "Kill every Jew, push them into the sea." (for a MAJORITY of the Arab population.)

2. The Pali's won't accept anything less than that.

3. The Pali's GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to deny the existence of Israel.

4. ANY peace deal that gets brokered WON'T BE ENOUGH FOR THE PALI'S.

5. BHO is cozying up to Enemies of the State instead of our allies.

Sorry, Avanti. BHO is shaping up to be worse than Carter.

109 Gang of One  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:58:46am

re: #8 Ward Cleaver

Israel is on her own now. God bless her.

When it comes down to it, Israel and the Jews have always been on their own.

110 JustABill  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:58:54am

re: #103 HoosierHoops

No but we all know she is a size 6p.. what is not to like?
Mandy is one smart cookie also..Good people if you ask me

Oh well, I can still dream...

111 Gus  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:59:06am
“Obama’s people brief their Israeli counterparts in advance much less about security and Middle East policy activities than the Bush administration used to...”

That's because Obama's people don't know about security and neither care about Israeli security. Samantha Power is working for the National Security Council while Hillary Clinton is Secretary of State. The rest of the Obama team is nothing more than a collection of leftist journalist majors who align themselves with the average Bay Area view of the Middle East.

The pathology with leftists is to conduct social experiments. The Obama administration is conducting its foreign policy as yet another social experiment with Obama acting as the "supreme social worker" for a goal a that will undermine the security and future of our traditional allies. In the end they will be sacrificed as other have been in the past when leftists manipulate policy to satisfy their narcissistic needs.

112 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:59:27am
113 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:59:56am

re: #105 JustABill

exactly, because it upset the Palis, predictable, but beyond the "O"s ability to forsee.

And the other part of his plan, having Arab countries grant citizenship to the "refugees" was immediately rejected by the Arab League.

114 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:00:04am

re: #76 Alouette

Jewish settlements are not the problem. Arabs who wish to destroy Israel are the problem.

In August 2005 all Jewish settlements were removed from Gaza. How did that work out, hmm?

Teh (sic) One intoned it was Jewish settlements, that is Gospel for the worshipers. Truth and facts only obscure the issue.

115 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:01:28am

re: #113 Kosh's Shadow

And the other part of his plan, having Arab countries grant citizenship to the "refugees" was immediately rejected by the Arab League.

And the constant drumbeat that time is running out for the "2 State Solution" after which it must be the "1 State Solution" in which Israel MUST grant citizenship to all the Arab "refugees."

116 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:01:34am

re: #109 Gang of One

When it comes down to it, Israel and the Jews have always been on their own.

They've always had G-d, and He protects them based on their behavior.
However, it is said that the fall of Jerusalem was due to hatred between Jews, and such hatred still exists.

117 Lincolntf  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:02:01am

re: #113 Kosh's Shadow

Amazing how the only people never willing to help Arabs are other Arabs.

118 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:02:10am

re: #116 Kosh's Shadow

They've always had G-d, and He protects them based on their behavior.
However, it is said that the fall of Jerusalem was due to hatred between Jews, and such hatred still exists.

Yes, our help will come from another place.

119 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:02:39am

re: #108 MrSilverDragon

Carter took a full 4 year presidency and considerable time afterwards to become a full-throated anti-Semitic Jihadi loving asshole. O has done so in a little over 100 days. The feat is staggering in its sheer speed and audacity.

120 Kragar  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:02:50am

Obama threatens CA for attempting to balance budget

The Obama administration is threatening to rescind billions of dollars in federal stimulus money if Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and state lawmakers do not restore wage cuts to unionized home healthcare workers approved in February as part of the budget.

Schwarzenegger's office was advised this week by federal health officials that the wage reduction, which will save California $74 million, violates provisions of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Failure to revoke the scheduled wage cut before it takes effect July 1 could cost California $6.8 billion in stimulus money, according to state officials.

121 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:03:39am

re: #117 Lincolntf

Amazing how the only people never willing to help Arabs are other Arabs.

Well, they know what they're like.

"Me against my brother; my brother and I against my cousin; my cousin and I against my uncle; my uncle and I against my clan; my clan and I against the village; my village and I against my nation; my nation and I against the world." - Pure tribalism, with cell phones.

122 Kragar  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:03:50am

re: #117 Lincolntf

Amazing how the only people never willing to help Arabs are other Arabs.

They know first hand what to expect, so why should they?

123 LGoPs  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:04:00am

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

What a Poe-seur.

Obama really is a poseur. He was barely qualified to get an entry level management position in a normal company, let alone apply for the job of the Presidency which is not an entry level position.
The American people, knowing this, rolled the dice.
The future of my country is not a goddammed crap shoot.

124 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:04:20am

re: #119 FurryOldGuyJeans

The feat is staggering in its sheer speed and audacity.

Standing comment for anything and everything we've seen thus far, and can expect for some time to come.

125 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:04:28am

re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Obama threatens CA for attempting to balance budget

He won't let us forget he "won". The audacity of Thuggery is truly Kali in scope.

126 Spiritualized  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:04:46am

I don't doubt Barry's hostility to Israel for one second, but hasn't every single President *demanded* that "settlement" growth is halted?

In spite of the warnings I don't think anyone could've predicted how much damage one man could do in a mere 3 1/2 months.

127 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:04:47am

re: #119 FurryOldGuyJeans

Carter took a full 4 year presidency and considerable time afterwards to become reveal he was a full-throated anti-Semitic Jihadi loving asshole. O has done so in a little over 100 days. The feat is staggering in its sheer speed and audacity.

FIFY

128 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:06:07am

re: #113 Kosh's Shadow

And the other part of his plan, having Arab countries grant citizenship to the "refugees" was immediately rejected by the Arab League.

But O will make it work because he is Teh (sic) One, after all. Who can the perfect agenda?

129 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:06:22am

re: #125 FurryOldGuyJeans

The audacity of Thuggery

Rotating Title Nomination

130 Land Shark  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:06:25am

I'm not surprised about this, I predicted to my many Jewish friends this was going to happen. Given Obama's associations, mentors, parents, etc, etc., was any other result possible?

By the way, I still don't see any sign that most of my Jewish friends are wising up, even after I point out Obama's actions and statements. I see a few of them are started to notice, but most still live in la-la land. I guess it's really hard to admit you screwed up and voted for the Brown Shirts.

However, what's interesting is my wife, who works with Holocaust survivors, told me the great majority of her survivors didn't like Obama and voted for McCain.

131 Kragar  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:06:51am

Obama budget nixes aid for jailing illegal immigrants

President Obama voted in the Senate to provide additional funding for a program targeted for elimination by his budget that provides states a federal subsidy to offset the costs of jailing illegal immigrants.

Killing the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAPP) would save $400 million, according to Obama's budget for fiscal 2010 released Thursday. It's one of the largest non-defense discretionary cuts proposed in the president's budget.

The program is popular with border-state politicians on Capitol Hill, however, making its elimination a tough sell to lawmakers, particularly from California.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) has repeatedly pushed for additional funding for the program, and lawmakers from other states that have costs associated with illegal aliens have also offered support.

132 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:07:33am

re: #131 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Obama budget nixes aid for jailing illegal immigrants

Already posted it, but thanks for the back-stop. :)

133 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:08:07am

“Obama’s people brief their Israeli counterparts in advance much less about security and Middle East policy activities than the Bush administration used to,”

turns going to look on the bright side and say it's just because O's administration is making shit up as they go along, i.e. no advance planning and neither O or Hillary have a frickin clue what our Middle East policy should be. Could they be that naive?

134 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:08:37am

re: #126 Spiritualized

I don't doubt Barry's hostility to Israel for one second, but hasn't every single President *demanded* that "settlement" growth is halted?

In spite of the warnings I don't think anyone could've predicted how much damage one man could do in a mere 3 1/2 months.

Joe Gaffe, in his address to AIPAC, insisted that freezing settlement growth included Jews in settlements not getting married or having more babies. Even Peres was shocked by that.

135 dogberry  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:08:42am

Will Obama order the U.S. Air Force to stop any Israeli attack on Iran that overflies Iraq? If so we the Israelis then go over Turkey or Saudi Arabia?

Will Obama then direct the American radar near Dimona to shut down?

Kent

136 aggieann  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:09:09am

re: #102 irongrampa

But we mustn't wish him to fail.

That's right. At least before Dear Leader came onto the scene, we had until the end of 2012 before the world would come to an end.

137 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:09:34am

re: #133 turn

“Obama’s people brief their Israeli counterparts in advance much less about security and Middle East policy activities than the Bush administration used to,”

turns going to look on the bright side and say it's just because O's administration is making shit up as they go along, i.e. no advance planning and neither O or Hillary have a frickin clue what our Middle East policy should be. Could they be that naive?

Isn't it obvious? Hell yes, they are.

138 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:10:17am

re: #23 crown_of_feathers

Gee, think that moron Sarah Silverman will be "schlepping" over to the White House to talk to her buddy?

Why should she, presumably she agrees with him!

139 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:10:23am

re: #60 avanti

There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal, we just don't know how much.

There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal surrender, we just don't care know how much.

FIFY.

140 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:10:40am

As Charles alluded to, that Obama would largely abandon and harangue Israel was obvious to anyone watching Obama's campaign, and in fact was widely predicted by many doing that watching.

In fact Netanyahu probably owes his election at least in part to this widespread perception that if Obama were elected, Israel would be on its own with respect to Iran.

The only questions were how badly would Obama try to screw Israel, and how soon. The answers being "pretty badly" and "almost immediately".

141 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:11:42am

re: #119 FurryOldGuyJeans

Carter took a full 4 year presidency and considerable time afterwards to become a full-throated anti-Semitic Jihadi loving asshole. O has done so in a little over 100 days. The feat is staggering in its sheer speed and audacity.

He was beforehand, and he helped rehabilitate the image of Arafat, even writing the speech the terrorist asshole gave to the UN.

142 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:12:14am

re: #104 jvic

The Arabs could get both their goals. Let Israel deal with Iran and then watch Obama let a weakened Israel be bled dry by terror.

To put it mildly, this administration has not established a backlog of credibility with me. If I see them doing something that looks appalling, I do not assume they have a valid reason I don't know about.


From my perspective, Israel should do a peace deal with the Arab states in which Israel lets the Arabs pretend that Israel is actually an Arab invention to consolidate all of the ghettoes of the Middle East into one handy package that enabled them to rid themselves of all those detestable Jews in their midst, and at the same time lets them pretend that the Arab nation is mighty enough to crush Israel anytime it wants but magnanimous enough to let it exist. Then they can claim that they let Israel be so heavily armed because of the Iranian threat, and can allow Israel to demonstrate this by carrying out an attack on Iran.

In that way, Arab honor and pride are satisfied, and really, what does Israel care if the Arabs want to tell themselves self-aggrandizing lies?

143 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:12:38am

re: #137 FurryOldGuyJeans

The down side would be it isn't naivety but a sincere hatred of Israel.

144 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:13:09am

re: #141 Kosh's Shadow

He was beforehand, and he helped rehabilitate the image of Arafat, even writing the speech the terrorist asshole gave to the UN.

It wasn't as fashionable to be overtly anti-Semitic then as it is now.

145 UncleRancher  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:13:49am

To my Jewish friends who voted for Him: What is the matter with you? Are you STUPID?

Their answer: We always vote for the democrat.

146 Spiritualized  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:13:50am

re: #60 avanti

No spin, just a different opinion. While I agree the US must support Israel, we should not support new settlements, or settlement expansion in occupied territories. It's disingenuous to say on one hand that you are working for a two state solution while expanding settlements that will later have to be abandoned in a possible peace agreement.

There is no "two-state solution" and there never has been, carving an Islamic state (the 57th) out of Israel is no "solution" to anything.

Ethinically cleansing 200,000+ Jews from Judea/Samaria will not end 1,400 years of Islamic imperialism, in fact it will only encourage it further.

147 LGoPs  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:13:54am

BBIAW

148 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:14:05am

re: #143 turn

The down side would be it isn't naivety but a sincere hatred of Israel.

The two are not mutually exclusive, one can be a doofus and hate Israel at the same time.

149 _RememberTonyC  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:14:33am

The Republicans with any testicular fortitude need to step up NOW. They need to do it because it's the right thing to do. And they also need to do it to show Jews around this country who really IS on the side of the angels in the middle east. And my own senator, Joe Lieberman, who used to be independent and willing to criticize his own party, needs to "re grow" a set and step up to the plate.

150 KenJen  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:14:38am

OT: We just had a meth lab bust down the street from where I work. Cops everywhere. One policeman was taken away in an ambulance. This is a nice part of Louisville. Not where you would expect a meth lab.

151 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:15:25am

re: #148 FurryOldGuyJeans

The two are not mutually exclusive, one can be a doofus and hate Israel at the same time.

Right you are, a double whammy. OMG

152 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:15:57am

re: #126 Spiritualized

I don't doubt Barry's hostility to Israel for one second, but hasn't every single President *demanded* that "settlement" growth is halted?

In spite of the warnings I don't think anyone could've predicted how much damage one man could do in a mere 3 1/2 months.

So far, no prior American President has:

a. Threatened to abandon the doctrine of Israeli nuclear ambiguity.
b. Tried to tie Israel's defensive efforts with respect to international foes to its

The Obama administration seems to have adopted wholesale the pernicious and false idea that "but for" the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, there would be peace in the Middle East.

Its nonsense. If tomorrow every single Israeli man woman and child left the country permanently, leaving everything that remained to the Palestinians, there are three things that would be certain:

a. The Palestinians would NOT establish a functional consentual gov't and society and
b. Iran would NOT suddenly stop its covert nuclear weapons program, and
c. The rest of the Middle East (ie Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia) would still be dysfunctional and run by a bunch of fascist and/or Islamist thugs.

153 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:16:57am

re: #150 KenJen
What happened to the cop jen?

154 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:17:21am

re: #144 FurryOldGuyJeans

It wasn't as fashionable to be overtly anti-Semitic then as it is now.

Yes, I noticed a definite up-tick in that sort of thing starting right robably about in the past 10 years or so. The whack-jobs took to judenhasse with real vigor here lately; like hipsters in the 20's with the Charleston, everybody was getting in on it, and now, it's passed over to the point where it's everywhere.

155 KenJen  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:17:52am

Hi turn. Don't know yet. I hope he/she is okay. I'll let you know.

156 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:17:55am

re: #145 UncleRancher

I'm Jewish, registered Independent and I haven't voted for a Democrat since the 90s.

157 MacDuff  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:12am

re: #93 avanti

Personally, I don't give a damn what the "Arab street" thinks about our policies and worrying about their seething is a waste of time. Many in the Middle East don't see the US as an "honest broker"? Since when are Arab countries, experts on honesty? The reason that there's no peace between Israel and the Arabs, is because the Arabs have broken every promise they have ever made. Israel has been ruthlessly attacked for decades, defended herself from military aggression and won every battle hands down. The Arab's answer has been to wage asymmetrical wars (i.e. terrorism), because it's the ONLY way they can effectively kill Jews.

Let's face it, one side wants peace and has given back land won in wars of Arab aggression, paid for by the blood of Israeli citizens/soldiers in the interest of pursuing that peace. The other side wants to kill Jews.

I can only speak for me, but my choice in who deserves my support is simple.

158 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:14am

Bye bye Miss American Jew
You put Obama in the Whitehouse
But the Messiah hates you
And good ol' commies drinking hatred and wry
Singing that'll be the day that she dies,
That'll be the day 'srael dies

159 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:23am

re: #130 Land Shark

I'm not surprised about this, I predicted to my many Jewish friends this was going to happen. Given Obama's associations, mentors, parents, etc, etc., was any other result possible?

By the way, I still don't see any sign that most of my Jewish friends are wising up, even after I point out Obama's actions and statements. I see a few of them are started to notice, but most still live in la-la land. I guess it's really hard to admit you screwed up and voted for the Brown Shirts.

However, what's interesting is my wife, who works with Holocaust survivors, told me the great majority of her survivors didn't like Obama and voted for McCain.

Last year there was a major campaign underway to portray Jewish (and pro-Israel) fears of a President Obama as the result of prejudice or misinformation. (See for example this bit of campaign literature from the NYT. Note how many straw men were set up to be knocked down and how the article doesn't really address issues like candidate Obama's anti-Likud snark.) Jews who were skeptical of Obama were portrayed as a bunch of unsophisticated rubes.

Of course most of those doing this were the sophist-icates of J-Street - an organizatoin founded by Obama fundraiser Alan Solomont - and their allies who feel the need to save Israel from itself. They didn't have the honesty to say that their position was anti-Israel; rather that they knew better than Israel what was good for it.

I'm sure that some percentage of the 78% of Jews who voted for Obama didn't realize what they were voting for. But the results of the 2008 election just show that American Jews are, overall, extremely liberal and that they'd rather be liberal than right - even if it means going against their own interests.

160 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:33am

re: #149 _RememberTonyC

The Republicans with any testicular fortitude need to step up NOW. They need to do it because it's the right thing to do. And they also need to do it to show Jews around this country who really IS on the side of the angels in the middle east. And my own senator, Joe Lieberman, who used to be independent and willing to criticize his own party, needs to "re grow" a set and step up to the plate.

Agreed, but I haven't heard any republicans making position statement about much of anything right now. The budget, this that or the other. Most of them are trying to figure out what happens next, while the shit is continuing to hit the fan.

There's no conservative politician out there listening right now. Except the jerks with the dirty laundry.

161 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:52am

re: #155 KenJen

Hi turn. Don't know yet. I hope he/she is okay. I'll let you know.

Those freakin' labs are an absolute superfund site in the making; it's a wonder anyone who has anything to do with any of it is still alive.

162 jcbunga  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:55am

We are witnessing a redefining of "naivete", and it's been how long?

163 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:59am

re: #135 dogberry

Will Obama order the U.S. Air Force to stop any Israeli attack on Iran that overflies Iraq? If so we the Israelis then go over Turkey or Saudi Arabia?

Will Obama then direct the American radar near Dimona to shut down?

Kent

The Israelis might actually choose to fly around the Arabian peninsula to remain in international airspace the entire way. One wonders whether they could stage refuelling tankers in places along the way - Kenya, perhaps - from which they could join the route of the attack aircraft at the appropriate times without having to haul fuel all the way from Israel.

As for the American radar at Dimona, that would be a big risk for Obama. If doing so meant Iranian missiles striking Israel without being intercepted, that would look a lot like Obama directly helping Iran to attack Israel. Not very good domestic politics, that.

164 irongrampa  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:18:59am

Small comfort I realize, but with Netanyahu in charge, Israel doing what she inevitably MUST looks better. I don't see the possibility of half measures being taken with him. Just a shame they no longer have a trustworthy ally.

165 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:19:27am

re: #140 looking closely

As Charles alluded to, that Obama would largely abandon and harangue Israel was obvious to anyone watching Obama's campaign, and in fact was widely predicted by many doing that watching.

In fact Netanyahu probably owes his election at least in part to this widespread perception that if Obama were elected, Israel would be on its own with respect to Iran.

The only questions were how badly would Obama try to screw Israel, and how soon. The answers being "pretty badly" and "almost immediately".

Unfortunately Netanyahu still didn't win a convincing majority. He didn't even win a plurality.

166 albusteve  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:19:30am

avanti...
two words
Second Intifada...where were you?

167 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:19:36am

re: #152 looking closely

So far, no prior American President has:

a. Threatened to abandon the doctrine of Israeli nuclear ambiguity.
b. Tried to tie Israel's defensive efforts with respect to international foes to its

The Obama administration seems to have adopted wholesale the pernicious and false idea that "but for" the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, there would be peace in the Middle East.

Its nonsense. If tomorrow every single Israeli man woman and child left the country permanently, leaving everything that remained to the Palestinians, there are three things that would be certain:

a. The Palestinians would NOT establish a functional consentual gov't and society and
b. Iran would NOT suddenly stop its covert nuclear weapons program, and
c. The rest of the Middle East (ie Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia) would still be dysfunctional and run by a bunch of fascist and/or Islamist thugs.

d. The other Arab State would turn on the Palestinians.

168 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:20:07am

re: #152 looking closely

Sorry, skipped a line. No prior American administration has ever:

a. Threatened to abandon the doctrine of Israeli nuclear ambiguity.
b. Tried to tie Israel's defensive efforts with respect to international foes to its stance with respect to the Palestinians.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians simply are not ready for their own state. The recent civil war in Gaza is just one of many examples of why not.

Netanyahu is right about this. The Palestinians will NEVER be ready for a state until/unless they have some real economic stake in maintaining one. Right now, they have every incentive to remain perpetual victims under international charity.

169 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:20:10am

re: #155 KenJen
It's not uncommon for those labs to be set up in really nice neighborhoods, it happened in one not too far from where I live. The only way the cops found out was because the house caught fire.

170 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:20:30am

re: #166 albusteve

avanti...
two words
Second Intifada...where were you?

Avanti left a half hour ago to work in his garbage, I mean, to work in his garage. He won't answer.

171 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:20:30am

re: #166 albusteve

avanti...
two words
Second Intifada...where were you?

Throwing rocks

172 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:21:02am
173 Gus  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:21:13am

US denies Israel access to F-35 computer

A refusal by the United States to allow Israel to repair computer systems in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is at the heart of disagreements between the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon that have been holding up an official Israeli order for the fifth-generation fighter jet.

I wonder if this is a new development. Why order the JSF if you won't have access to its computer?

174 albusteve  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:21:29am

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Agreed, but I haven't heard any republicans making position statement about much of anything right now. The budget, this that or the other. Most of them are trying to figure out what happens next, while the shit is continuing to hit the fan.

There's no conservative politician out there listening right now. Except the jerks with the dirty laundry.

re-election is demanding in these days of political upheaval....little time for anything else like taking a strong position based on priciple

175 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:21:38am

Over the Years I have heard here and elsewhere that President Bush really wasn't such a good friend to Israel. I always defended him. Remembering that President Bush was first and is foremost the President of the USA not Israel, and Remembering America's other relationships in the World, I don't think you could find a better Friend of Israel than President Bush. Did he make mistakes, sure, who hasn't. But they last 8 Years were the good years. G-D help us now.

176 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:21:43am

re: #158 SFGoth

buzz is that you? nice one SF

177 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:22:03am

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

Avanti left a half hour ago to work in his garbage, I mean, to work in his garage. He won't answer.

cleaning the carb on the studebaker, or the bong, do you think?

178 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:22:07am

re: #157 MacDuff

You'll find certain folks hung up on what's popular, and being popular.

52% makes it right.

179 Bill Dalasio  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:22:41am

The man's behavior is par for the course, once you start from the premise that he is a bully at heart. Our allies don't particularly need any sign of respect or mutual interest. They're already on board and can be brought into line. It's those who are openly opposed and hostile to us that attract the bully's attentions. They're the ones who might sock him in the face if he tries the same behavior as he's accustomed to with the allies.

180 captdiggs  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:22:47am

It's all about "change"
Out with the old friends ( Israel, Canada, the UK...) and in with the new ( Iran, Syria, Venezuela...)
But seriously, this is perhaps the most dangerous policy change in American history.
Abandoning democracy in favor of thugocracies bodes ill for the security of the US.

181 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:23:10am

re: #173 Gus 802

US denies Israel access to F-35 computer

I wonder if this is a new development. Why order the JSF if you won't have access to its computer?

It's more complicated than that, but in "Good Times" these disputes fly under the radar.

182 albusteve  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:23:50am

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

Avanti left a half hour ago to work in his garbage, I mean, to work in his garage. He won't answer.

he's lurking....they all do

183 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:24:05am

re: #177 Guanxi88

cleaning the carb on the studebaker, or the bong, do you think?

Getting the latest talking points from the 15 Minute Hate as well, no doubt.

184 KenJen  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:24:11am

re: #169 turn

Scary. I live in a crummy neighborhood. No telling how many are on my block.

185 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:24:18am

There is one upside to this policy, which I do not believe Obama intended. So long as Obama looks like he is moving to make some sort of accomodation with Iran, Israel will be the Arabs only hope against Iran. This may benefit Israel. In fact, don't be surprised if Israeli military interests are lobbied for by SA.

186 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:24:46am
187 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:24:46am

re: #135 dogberry

Will Obama order the U.S. Air Force to stop any Israeli attack on Iran that overflies Iraq? If so we the Israelis then go over Turkey or Saudi Arabia?


I wouldn't rule out the possiblity that Israelis could go over Turkey or Saudi Arabia.

Neither of those two countries really wants to see Iran with nukes, particularly the Saudis. I think a deal could be struck, where one party suffers some "accidental" equipment failures at an inconvenient time, then makes a lot of noise about it later.

188 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #183 FurryOldGuyJeans

Getting the latest talking points from the 15 Minute Hate as well, no doubt.

Correction, it's called "Two Minute Hate."

189 Danny  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:25:19am

Remember when Biden said "Watch, we’re gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy"? So he forgot to mention it would be generated by Obama himself, but hey, at least we were warned.

190 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:25:20am

There are a few things which Foggy Bottom (who ought to know better ...) and PB0 and his little helpers have totally overlooked.
Yes, 'being tought' on israel may get them some brownie points in their own moonbat stew, and it may evoke some applause from the Arab Street - but all other Allies will not be impressed:
ME politicians (not the hamasthugs, fataholes or Mad Mullahs) do know that one says one thing in public, but does everything else behind closed doors to keep things as they are.
above all - even if its an enemy, one does not betray one's ally.
And this is exactly what all other US allies will look at: PB0 abandoning a staunch friend for expediency ... so who will be next?
Quick look at the globe makes for interesting speculation - and this at a time where because of the economicl turmoil friends need to stand together.

If it isn't the most amazing stupidity and immaturity, then one can only say its a disguse for something truly bad ...

191 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:25:37am

The world is almost unrecognizable. First the USA-Israel relationship is a wreck and them Mariano Rivera may be hittable? The Sky is falling!

192 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:25:37am

re: #130 Land Shark

I'm not surprised about this, I predicted to my many Jewish friends this was going to happen. Given Obama's associations, mentors, parents, etc, etc., was any other result possible?

By the way, I still don't see any sign that most of my Jewish friends are wising up, even after I point out Obama's actions and statements. I see a few of them are started to notice, but most still live in la-la land. I guess it's really hard to admit you screwed up and voted for the Brown Shirts.

However, what's interesting is my wife, who works with Holocaust survivors, told me the great majority of her survivors didn't like Obama and voted for McCain.


Your wife works with Jews who understand that (a) there really are people out there for whom killing Jews is more important that even their own lives, and (b) Jews are not invincible warriors.

Most American Jews know of the Holocaust but do not believe that in the present day, anyone could possibly want to replicate it. (They apparently think that what happened to Bosnian Muslims or Rwandan Tutsis or black Muslim tribesmen in Darfur has nothing to say about the continued willingness of some people to commit genocide and the continued unwillingness of most people to take any real action against it.)

Further, since 1967, most American Jews believe that Israel is not a tiny nation precariously perched among overwhelming numbers of enemies willing to destroy it. They think Israel is a mighty military force that can bully any of its neighbors and faces no existential threat from any quarter.

What would have to happen to prove to them that they are wrong is too awful to contemplate.

193 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:25:44am

re: #186 buzzsawmonkey

Here it is! The green-around-the-gills Green tea you've been waiting for! The hot beverage for the cool kids!

It's Obama™ Brand Genuine Naiva-Tea!

I can just imagine the new Barry-approved talk radio stations having spots for this, the way Rush used to have Ovaltine spots.

194 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:26:30am

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Correction, it's called "Two Minute Hate."

Ah, but these days, it take 15 minutes to get it done (union work)

195 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:26:42am

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Correction, it's called "Two Minute Hate."

It has been expanded to 15 minutes.

I know what the Orwellian version was, this is the new hopey, changey O version.

196 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:26:49am

re: #185 Cato

There is one upside to this policy, which I do not believe Obama intended. So long as Obama looks like he is moving to make some sort of accomodation with Iran, Israel will be the Arabs only hope against Iran. This may benefit Israel. In fact, don't be surprised if Israeli military interests are lobbied for by SA.

We call that convoluted logic. I get it and you may have something there, but ......

197 Gus  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:27:39am

re: #191 Nevergiveup

The world is almost unrecognizable. First the USA-Israel relationship is a wreck and them Mariano Rivera may be hittable? The Sky is falling!

It's also Friday which means we should expect another one of Obama's weekly Data Dumps.

198 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:27:42am

re: #158 SFGoth

Bye bye Miss American Jew
You put Obama in the Whitehouse
But the Messiah hates you
And good ol' commies drinking hatred and wry
Singing that'll be the day that she dies,
That'll be the day 'srael dies

My line from yesterday
Drove my chevy to the levy
And blew it sky-high

199 Sceptic Tank  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:28:12am

President Obama is conforming to European and Russian standards with Israel. As a radical leftist his actions are consonant with Islamic militant radicals.

200 snowcrash  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:28:16am

Barack Obama said Israel is a "constant wound" and a "constant sore" that infects "all of our foreign policy." No surprises when his actions fit his words.

201 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:28:17am

re: #176 turn

buzz is that you? nice one SF

Buzz?

202 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:28:26am

re: #197 Gus 802

It's also Friday which means we should expect another one of Obama's weekly Data Dumps.

Yeah, can't actually let public attention be drawn to the real policies.

203 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:28:37am

re: #198 Kosh's Shadow

My line from yesterday
Drove my chevy to the levy
And blew it sky-high

So that was you in New Orleans?

204 albusteve  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:29:11am

re: #196 Nevergiveup

We call that convoluted logic. I get it and you may have something there, but ......

it's been that way all along and is Israels ace in the hole....evrybody but BO hates the iranians and fears them....especially SA...Bibi should go directly to the King and lay it out

205 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:29:16am

re: #190 yma o hyd

If it isn't the most amazing stupidity and immaturity, then one can only say its a disguse for something truly bad ...

As furry pointed out upthread, it could be both.

206 wiffersnapper  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:29:24am

Can't believe the Zionist Conspiracy nuts are finally having a good time. This should never happen.

207 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:29:37am

re: #163 stuiec

The Israelis might actually choose to fly around the Arabian peninsula to remain in international airspace the entire way. One wonders whether they could stage refuelling tankers in places along the way - Kenya, perhaps - from which they could join the route of the attack aircraft at the appropriate times without having to haul fuel all the way from Israel.

As for the American radar at Dimona, that would be a big risk for Obama. If doing so meant Iranian missiles striking Israel without being intercepted, that would look a lot like Obama directly helping Iran to attack Israel. Not very good domestic politics, that.

Nor would it be very good international politics.
However - lets not fool ourselves here - the World would bewail the fate of the Jews, once they're dead, but won't be doing anything at all to keep Israel alive.
Remember, dead Jews are worthy of being bewailed, live Jews ... aww, why don't they just stop disturbing everybody ...

208 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:29:55am

re: #200 snowcrash

Barack Obama said Israel is a "constant wound" and a "constant sore" that infects "all of our foreign policy." No surprises when his actions fit his words.

Yeah, we can't have a wishy-washy POTUS like McCain would have been.

209 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:30:07am

re: #196 Nevergiveup

But it may have the benefit of being true despite that not being what The One wants.

210 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:30:10am

re: #204 albusteve

it's been that way all along and is Israels ace in the hole....evrybody but BO hates the iranians and fears them....especially SA...Bibi should go directly to the King and lay it out

Let the King come to Bibi. Hey we'd even let him pray in Jerusalem if he asks nice.

211 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:30:14am

re: #201 SFGoth

Buzz?

buzzsawmonkey aka buzz

212 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:30:19am
213 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:30:21am

re: #173 Gus 802

US denies Israel access to F-35 computer

I wonder if this is a new development. Why order the JSF if you won't have access to its computer?

It also means Israel can't put its own weapons systems on the aircraft.
And, should the US ever have a boycott of Israel, they would be unable to maintain the aircraft at all. It is a lot harder to reverse engineer the computer systems than the skins, frames, engine components, etc.

214 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:30:25am

re: #184 KenJen

We have some friends that bought a house in the Country..80 acres and a nice 4 bd.. because the house was a meth lab they had to redo the Interior cause of the effects of cooking.. It rotted the wood...I never knew that..Boy did they get a deal! I don't know crap about meth..But i think they cook acid and that's really bad for wood..20k bad

215 jcm  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:30:37am

re: #186 buzzsawmonkey

Here it is! The green-around-the-gills Green tea you've been waiting for! The hot beverage for the cool kids!

It's Obama™ Brand Genuine Naiva-Tea!

More like Kopi Luwak.

216 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:31:05am

re: #209 Cato

But it may have the benefit of being true despite that not being what The One wants.

It just might.

217 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:31:21am

re: #173 Gus 802

US denies Israel access to F-35 computer

I wonder if this is a new development. Why order the JSF if you won't have access to its computer?


It points out that Israel would be better off building its own advanced fighters at this point... if it turns out that there is indeed a huge natural gas field off Israel's coast, they might be able to afford to do just that. But that's a long-term solution, and Israel faces some big short-term problems.

218 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:31:32am

re: #215 jcm

More like Kopi Luwak.

Both are shit. ;)

219 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:32:13am
220 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:32:32am

Obama telegraphed his intention throughout the campaign that he was planning to throw Israel under the bus and embrace our enemies (like Iran). The mainstream American Jewish moderate left did everything they could to ignore or downplay this fact.

But when Obama follows through on his promises, the honeymoon with the moderate Jewish left will be over. There will be a great deal of anger if Obama makes the US be in an adversarial position to Israel, while coddling Hamas and Iran. It will spell big trouble for him.

I know someone, a Jewish Democrat -- probably the most "right-wing" person I know (i.e. he's not to the left of Trotsky) -- who was all gung-ho for Hillary early in the campaign, partly because she was promising to continue to be pro-Israel if elected. He was very down on Obama for his Israel stance. He would say all sorts of negative but valid things about Obama -- "I don't trust the guy when it comes to Israel," "He's going to legitimize the terror states," etc.

I didn't talk to him between September and this January. When I met him, I was curious -- who had he voted for? "Obama, of course!", he said grinning. He had totally drunk the Kool-Aid. He got swept up in Obamania after O won the nomination. Despite all his reservations about Obama, no way could he pull the lever for a Republican.

But if Obama throws Israel under the bus, this guy and millions like him will throw the Kool-Aid under the bus as well, and Obama's support will start to crumble. Big-time.

Disappointing. And sickening.

221 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:32:32am

re: #173 Gus 802

US denies Israel access to F-35 computer

I wonder if this is a new development. Why order the JSF if you won't have access to its computer?

Heh.
I think they're scared Israel will come up with far better solutions, and will compete against their own bad systems ... bad business, see!

(Israel will have far better computer systems anyway, never doubt that!)

222 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:32:38am

re: #214 HoosierHoops

I didn't know that, I know that shit really rots teeth though.

223 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:32:49am

re: #213 Kosh's Shadow

It also means Israel can't put its own weapons systems on the aircraft.
And, should the US ever have a boycott of Israel, they would be unable to maintain the aircraft at all. It is a lot harder to reverse engineer the computer systems than the skins, frames, engine components, etc.

In the past things like this got handled. Like deny them the right to to do x,y, and z. Then let the technology in by the back door and look the other way.

224 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:33:11am

re: #185 Cato

There is one upside to this policy, which I do not believe Obama intended. So long as Obama looks like he is moving to make some sort of accomodation with Iran, Israel will be the Arabs only hope against Iran. This may benefit Israel. In fact, don't be surprised if Israeli military interests are lobbied for by SA.


See #48 above. James Taranto made the same observation at OpinionJournal.

225 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:33:20am

re: #217 stuiec

It points out that Israel would be better off building its own advanced fighters at this point... if it turns out that there is indeed a huge natural gas field off Israel's coast, they might be able to afford to do just that. But that's a long-term solution, and Israel faces some big short-term problems.

Tried that with the Lavi.

226 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:33:41am

re: #211 turn

buzzsawmonkey aka buzz

Not me.

227 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:34:09am

re: #169 turn

It's not uncommon for those labs to be set up in really nice neighborhoods, it happened in one not too far from where I live. The only way the cops found out was because the house caught fire.

That's generally how they're located; the building (house or apartment building) explodes or burns down, or the neighbors smell the chemicals, and call the cops, or the fire department. Another tragedy is kids living in meth houses, breathing the fumes from all the chemicals.

228 Gus  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:34:20am

re: #213 Kosh's Shadow

It also means Israel can't put its own weapons systems on the aircraft.
And, should the US ever have a boycott of Israel, they would be unable to maintain the aircraft at all. It is a lot harder to reverse engineer the computer systems than the skins, frames, engine components, etc.

In light of the current administration I would think this would be an alarming requirement. Basically it would mean the control of a defense system by a foreign body which in a worst case scenario may exist until 2016. I would vote no.

229 The Optimist  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:34:24am

re: #20 pat

Obama is delusional. He believes what he thinks must come true. His narcissistic personality does not allow for reality. And then there is the new threat of the Thug-In-Chief. "You don't want to get me mad." That the American people would put up with this is scary.

Obama has no sense of history, but a big sense of revenge for any of his self-defined underdogs who he believes have suffered because of the actions of the United States. He wants reprisals for all who have questioned his muslim heritage, for all who may have had anything connection to slavery (except muslim slavetraders who were victims), for all who are rich, for all who denied anything to anybody. Obama won the election and we get to live with it.

230 MacDuff  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:34:52am

re: #178 jcm

You'll find certain folks hung up on what's popular, and being popular.

52% makes it right.

Which is why a republic is superior to a pure democracy. Lynch mobs are democracies.

BTW, 52% makes it a majority opinion, what's "right" should be self-evident. Alas, judging "right" and "wrong" demands a level of education and moral development that seems to be in somewhat short supply of late.

231 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:35:39am

re: #220 zombie

...But if Obama throws Israel under the bus, this guy and millions like him will throw the Kool-Aid under the bus as well, and Obama's support will start to crumble. Big-time.

Disappointing. And sickening.

Well, I guess we just hang out with different liberal Jews. Most of them I know really don't care about Israel, and they think Israel should give in to the demands of the Pali's.

And I'm not making this up, so, there is a lot more opinion about Israel on the Jewish left than one imagines.

And most of what I hear is not good.

232 CIA Reject  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:35:42am

re: #227 Ward Cleaver

That's generally how they're located; the building (house or apartment building) explodes or burns down, or the neighbors smell the chemicals, and call the cops, or the fire department. Another tragedy is kids living in meth houses, breathing the fumes from all the chemicals.

I thought you just looked for the "Ron Paul" lawn signs.

/ducks ...

233 Gus  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:36:18am

re: #221 yma o hyd

Heh.
I think they're scared Israel will come up with far better solutions, and will compete against their own bad systems ... bad business, see!

(Israel will have far better computer systems anyway, never doubt that!)

They have the capability. I am trying to remember who developed the FLIR tracking pod for the F-16.

234 Kobalt  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:36:18am

"Obama’s foreign policy plan seems to be to reach out diplomatically to America’s worst enemies, and shun America’s best friends."

This is so Spot-on! Can this be made into an LGF bumper sticker?

235 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:36:21am
236 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:36:37am

Sorry Zombie, but my local relatives are the "moderate Jewish left" (as opposed to the moderate Jewish center) and they will support Obama no matter what, finding someone else to blame, such as Bush, or Netanyahu, or it's still Reagan's fault (depends on their age) or what have you. They will not engage in paradigm shifting. I know. I threw up in my mouth every seder when one of them would say something asinine about how Palis just want peace and we should share Jerusalem, et al. Ain't gonna happen.

237 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:36:48am

re: #26 NJDhockeyfan

I still want to see the video the LA Times is holding.

Yeah, me too.

238 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:36:57am

If it wasn't so depressing and detrimental to all I stand for, it would be amusing to watch Obama and his ilk think they have a novel, new, or better approach to the Middle East. Been there, done that, tried this. Pick up a history book boys, then get back to me.

239 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:37:00am

re: #234 Kobalt

"Obama’s foreign policy plan seems to be to reach out diplomatically to America’s worst enemies, and shun America’s best friends."

This is so Spot-on! Can this be made into an LGF bumper sticker?

How big of a bumper?

240 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:37:26am

re: #234 Kobalt

"Obama’s foreign policy plan seems to be to reach out diplomatically to America’s worst enemies, and shun America’s best friends."

This is so Spot-on! Can this be made into an LGF bumper sticker?

And do you suggest the bumper sticker to be about 6 feet long? /

241 turn  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:38:01am

re: #226 SFGoth

I know that, just pointing out it was so buzz "esq" Should have used a sarc tag.

242 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:38:24am

re: #199 Sceptic Tank

President Obama is conforming to European and Russian standards with Israel. As a radical leftist his actions are consonant with Islamic militant radicals.


As I pointed out six months ago, that EXACT terminology/language was invented by Palestinian activists, and the concept has infected all the Leftist though on Israel.

Its also a complete fiction. Israel isn't an "open sore" for the Arabs, its just a transparent "dog ate my homework" excuse.

Again, were Israel to drop off the face of the planet tomorrow, the Middle East would still be a dysfunctional cesspool of dictators and Islamists.

The Iran/Iraq war didn't happen because of Israel. Israel isn't responsible for the actions of the Saudi Apartheid state. Israel didn't assassinate a series of Lebanese politicians, etc.

243 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:38:51am

re: #239 Guanxi88

How big of a bumper?

Would "America Haters of the World, Unite!" work better?

244 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:39:16am
245 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:39:18am

re: #236 SFGoth

Sorry Zombie, but my local relatives are the "moderate Jewish left" (as opposed to the moderate Jewish center) and they will support Obama no matter what, finding someone else to blame, such as Bush, or Netanyahu, or it's still Reagan's fault (depends on their age) or what have you. They will not engage in paradigm shifting. I know. I threw up in my mouth every seder when one of them would say something asinine about how Palis just want peace and we should share Jerusalem, et al. Ain't gonna happen.

You are so spot on, and Zombie is way off. I don't know what moderate Jews Zombie has been speaking to, but all the ones I know are just like your relatives.

246 Guanxi88  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:39:36am

re: #243 FurryOldGuyJeans

Would "America Haters of the World, Unite!" work better?

I saw a whole bunch of those earlier, except they just said "Obama".

247 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

Well, I guess we just hang out with different liberal Jews. Most of them I know really don't care about Israel, and they think Israel should give in to the demands of the Pali's.

And I'm not making this up, so, there is a lot more opinion about Israel on the Jewish left than one imagines.

And most of what I hear is not good.

Walter you are 100% correct. Most of my Liberal Jewish Friends and Family have NEVER been to Israel, Know NOTHING about Israel, and do NOT care about Israel. They think America is new Jerusalem and no harm can ever come to them. Well I think 3 thousand years of History says they are wrong.

248 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:39:41am
249 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:39:44am

re: #207 yma o hyd

Nor would it be very good international politics.
However - lets not fool ourselves here - the World would bewail the fate of the Jews, once they're dead, but won't be doing anything at all to keep Israel alive.
Remember, dead Jews are worthy of being bewailed, live Jews ... aww, why don't they just stop disturbing everybody ...


Precisely. Which is why the Left abandoned Israel after 1967: it became apparent that Israel wasn't going to be a socialist workers' paradise, nor was it going to be the place where to noble Jews made their valiant but futile last stand. They saw that Israel was going to be an obstacle to Socialism engulfing the Middle East, and suddenly Israel became an evil oppressor of noble freedom-fighters.

250 Catttt  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:39:56am

re: #46 ilzito guacamolito

There is no call for that kind of talk.

Hey - I have fiduciary responsibility!

251 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:40:12am

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

Well, I guess we just hang out with different liberal Jews. Most of them I know really don't care about Israel, and they think Israel should give in to the demands of the Pali's.

And I'm not making this up, so, there is a lot more opinion about Israel on the Jewish left than one imagines.

And most of what I hear is not good.

Oh, I know people like that as well. Plenty of them. The more hardcore lefties.

But who I'm talking about are the moderate mainstream Jewish Democrats, who still think Israel is the cat's pajamas. If polls are to be believed, the pro-Israel moderates greatly outnumber the anti-Israel extemists (even though, like you, I see more of the extremists on a day-to-day basis).

252 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:40:16am

re: #220 zombie

The other day I attended a conference sponsored by a major bank's private banking group for its high net worth clients in the real estate industry. I saw there probably a dozen people and families that at one time or another had a billion dollar net worth. The most recognizable name was Sam Zell, but to me there were a lot more interesting people whose exploits have become the lore of the business in NY. I wanted to share some of the discussion because even I had not appreciated how in 100 days the president had permanently alienated this group.

The conference started with a professor of the Wharton School noting that: "The US is now no different from Russia or Zimbabwe in the eyes of investors since no one can rely on the law anymore."

He said this started with Bush but quickened with Obama. Using some econometric models he demonstrated that 2.5 pct GDP loss was contributed by changing the rules alone.

A variety of other speakers from public and private institutions demonstrated how capital was flying from the US as we speak.

But the most interesting was lunch. There were probably 90 people at lunch. Someone asked a couple of questions and then asked how many people voted for Obama. About 80 pct raised their hands. Then they asked whether they would do it again. No hands.

He asked for volunteers to explain why. In a word, the answer was Chrysler. Knowing the people involved, Israel would be the answer next time.

"The rule of absolute priority has been violated. If the government can change my lien's priority, I won't lend and I won't borrow."

"He's a thug. What president inserts his office into a bankruptcy?"

"I hear that the company doesn't have to pay back the TARP money that Congress voted against giving them. So my tax money went to buy the UAW control."

"Yeah," responded another. "I am not going to pay my taxes to go to the union. I hear Namibia doesn't have extradition laws. Screw the government."

One guy who voted for McCain and who was a lawyer who became a developer said, "I didn't vote for him because he could have done anything out of law school, but instead became a community organizer. It means he wanted remain uneducated about either business or the law. He is purposefully unknowing."

"He has violated his fiduciary duty to the people. He permitted that atrocity of a budget and now he gives tax money to a union"

"I hate the crazy religious republican nuts and I'm forced to give money to them."

Since I never supported the President, I do not feel betrayed. But there was a palpable sense of betrayal by this very, very rich group who largely voted for him.

253 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:40:24am

re: #225 Nevergiveup

Tried that with the Lavi.

Which the US pressured them to stop.

254 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:40:57am

re: #238 Nevergiveup

If it wasn't so depressing and detrimental to all I stand for, it would be amusing to watch Obama and his ilk think they have a novel, new, or better approach to the Middle East. Been there, done that, tried this. Pick up a history book boys, then get back to me.

Yes - it looks as if each new administration thinks it needs to go with their ehads through the wall - never mind that its been tried before, to no effect, never mind that its not an original approach ...
Pity that the situation has become more dangerous with every new term.

255 Kobalt  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:41:07am

re: #239 Guanxi88

How big of a bumper?

Doesn't matter. I'd probably apply about 10 of em. That'd REALLY piss of my fellow DC residents! (and that's a good thing)

256 schnapp  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:41:16am

re: #249 stuiec

They saw that Israel was going to be an obstacle to Socialism engulfing the Middle East, and suddenly Israel became an evil oppressor of noble freedom-fighters.


Freedom fighters who axe children to death.
Real classy, Left.

257 Liberal Classic  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:41:22am

It's so sad that we would turn our back on a natural ally. Israel is a multi-party parliamentary democracy. Like us, they practice a peaceful change of power through free elections, provide for the freedom of speech, the press, and assembly, the freedom to worship or not as one desires, and a right to privacy. In short, their values are our values. That we would abandon such as ally makes me fear that we ourselves are abandoning these values.

258 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:41:23am

re: #234 Kobalt

"Obama’s foreign policy plan seems to be to reach out diplomatically to America’s worst enemies, and shun America’s best friends."

This is so Spot-on! Can this be made into an LGF bumper sticker?

Obama: Obama: Evil to friends and friends with evil

259 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:41:28am

re: #241 turn

I know that, just pointing out it was so buzz "esq" Should have used a sarc tag.

Oh. Ehh. Ironically, I am an "esq". I so fit the Dem. voter profile yet I haven't voted Dem in any election since 1988. Doesn't mean I've voted Rep, but I utterly shun the Democratic Party because, you know what? I fucking want to be free of totalitarianism and losers-cum-bureaucrats running my goddam life.

260 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:41:59am

re: #220 zombie

But if Obama throws Israel under the bus, this guy and millions like him will throw the Kool-Aid under the bus as well, and Obama's support will start to crumble. Big-time.


Too little. . .too late.

Obama may already burning through his political capital like a drunken sailor, but ultimately he is still going to be Commander-in-Chief for four more years and responsible for American foreign policy.

He may not get the ability to execute every domestic program he wants, but his ability to affect foreign policy is still going to be strong for quite a while, and its pretty obvious his ideology isn't going to change.

Israel can't afford to wait four more years at this point.

261 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:42:00am

re: #253 Kosh's Shadow

Which the US pressured them to stop.

Yes

262 Kobalt  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:42:26am

re: #258 DaddyG

Obama: Obama: Evil to friends and friends with evil

I think LGF needs a bumper sticker thread...

263 Land Shark  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:42:39am

re: #192 stuiec

What you say makes a lot of sense, people who went through the unspeakable horror of the Holocaust would have an eye for demagoguery, especially from someone with a cult of personality like Obama has. While I don't think Obama is Hitler, he's definitely no friend of Israel, and given how Israel is constantly demonized and how few real friends around the world the country has, it makes for very dangerous times. All friends and supporters of Israel need to be very concerned. I know I am.

264 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:42:47am

re: #236 SFGoth

Sorry Zombie, but my local relatives are the "moderate Jewish left" (as opposed to the moderate Jewish center) and they will support Obama no matter what, finding someone else to blame, such as Bush, or Netanyahu, or it's still Reagan's fault (depends on their age) or what have you. They will not engage in paradigm shifting. I know. I threw up in my mouth every seder when one of them would say something asinine about how Palis just want peace and we should share Jerusalem, et al. Ain't gonna happen.

OK, maybe by your definition then, I'm talking about the "moderate Jewish center." If your relatives are saying we should share Jerusalem with the PLO's descendants, they're somewhat more to the left than the type of folks I'm talking about.

265 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:42:50am

re: #248 buzzsawmonkey

Urkels of the World, Unite!
You have nothing to lose but your brains.

I seem to be missing something here, I don't see the connection between the TV character Urkel and America haters.

266 brookly red  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:43:52am

re: #257 Liberal Classic

It's so sad that we would turn our back on a natural ally. Israel is a multi-party parliamentary democracy. Like us, they practice a peaceful change of power through free elections, provide for the freedom of speech, the press, and assembly, the freedom to worship or not as one desires, and a right to privacy. In short, their values are our values. That we would abandon such as ally makes me fear that we ourselves are abandoning these values.

Even worse for us we may be forcing Israel to seek shelter under someone else's umbrella.

267 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:43:54am
268 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:09am

re: #260 looking closely


Exactly. Rahm needs to give Israeli jets the codes so the US won't shoot them down over Iraq.

269 Gus  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:21am

re: #258 DaddyG

Obama: Obama: Evil to friends and friends with evil

In Obama's view of the world if someone was throwing rocks at your home on a daily basis his solution would be to go over to the person throwing rocks and discuss the matter -- perhaps by also bearing gifts. He would think, "there must be something we've done that caused him to throw rocks at our home."

270 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:26am

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

You are so spot on, and Zombie is way off. I don't know what moderate Jews Zombie has been speaking to, but all the ones I know are just like your relatives.

I'm talking about moderate Jews who are pro-Israel and still consider themselves Democrats. It's a fairly large demographic group, in my observations.

271 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:34am

re: #251 zombie

Oh, I know people like that as well. Plenty of them. The more hardcore lefties.

But who I'm talking about are the moderate mainstream Jewish Democrats, who still think Israel is the cat's pajamas. If polls are to be believed, the pro-Israel moderates greatly outnumber the anti-Israel extemists (even though, like you, I see more of the extremists on a day-to-day basis).

Well then you must have an amazing little pocket of these wee-intentioned moderate Jewish liberal in you neck of the woods, because I don't and it is evident by some of the other posts her, a lot of other Lizards would like to know where this weird specie of liberal Jews are, because we don't see any.

This is the kind of stuff that makes one get lazy about the real issues, the real problems and the reality of what is happening.

No, I don't agree at all, the majority (the majority that matters) of moderate Jews do not have the same concern for Israel as most of us do.

And they will not be of any help in support Israel.

272 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:36am

re: #252 Cato

There was a palpable sense of betrayal by this very, very rich group who largely voted for him.


And who ever said big money was "smart"?

273 Kobalt  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:36am

re: #266 brookly red

Even worse for us we may be forcing Israel to seek shelter under someone else's umbrella.

Like who?

274 shiplord kirel  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:55am

It is an article of faith on the left that Israel survives only because of massive American military, and that justice seekers like Assad could easily force the uppity Zionists to be reasonable (ie die or disappear) if it weren't for that. Thanks to a constant drumbeat of propaganda in favor on behalf of this line, they are unaware that Israel survived its first 20 years without substantial military help from the US. A lib I know reacted with disbelief when I told him this and was astounded to learn, for example, that not a single American-built combat plane saw action with the IDF during the 1967 war.
Israel can go it alone if it comes to that. It won't be easy but with extinction as the only alternative, it is possible.

275 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:44:56am

re: #223 Nevergiveup

In the past things like this got handled. Like deny them the right to to do x,y, and z. Then let the technology in by the back door and look the other way.

I'll refrain from commenting on the back door.

However, we've already seen cooperation between India and Israel on weapons systems; I see that growing.
Watch the Israelis get Russian aircraft or copies from India and replace the avionics to produce aircraft that outclass the F-35.
Shades of 1948 when the IAF flew German aircraft supplied from Czechoslovakia.

276 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:46:20am

re: #268 Cato

Exactly. Rahm needs to give Israeli jets the codes so the US won't shoot them down over Iraq.

Rahm reminds me of the Clintons. No principals or loyalties except to himself and his interests and would sell his mother, or Israel, down the River to achieve them.

277 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:46:23am

re: #272 looking closely


They are smart enough to not still be drinking the cool aid.

278 Gus  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:46:36am

re: #275 Kosh's Shadow

I'll refrain from commenting on the back door.

However, we've already seen cooperation between India and Israel on weapons systems; I see that growing.
Watch the Israelis get Russian aircraft or copies from India and replace the avionics to produce aircraft that outclass the F-35.
Shades of 1948 when the IAF flew German aircraft supplied from Czechoslovakia.

Watch the Israelis get Russian aircraft or copies from India and replace the avionics to produce aircraft that outclass the F-35.

I was thinking the exact thing.

279 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:46:44am

re: #252 Cato

I wonder how many people regretted supporting Hitler. This will take a long time to recover from - long enough to permit a significant secular, conservatarian party to form. Or maybe space aliens will liberate us.

280 brookly red  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:46:48am

re: #273 Kobalt

Like who?

China for one would love a nice port of call on the Mediterranean.

281 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:47:11am

re: #261 Nevergiveup
On canceling the Lavi fighter under US pressure, the pressure was that the US would restrict weapons sales and aid if they continued, and supply more weapons if they canceled it.
Denying access to the F-35 computer system removes all that leverage.

282 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:47:14am

re: #276 Nevergiveup


Wait and see. That is still too early to call.

283 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:47:15am

re: #249 stuiec

Precisely. Which is why the Left abandoned Israel after 1967: it became apparent that Israel wasn't going to be a socialist workers' paradise, nor was it going to be the place where to noble Jews made their valiant but futile last stand. They saw that Israel was going to be an obstacle to Socialism engulfing the Middle East, and suddenly Israel became an evil oppressor of noble freedom-fighters.

The Left, in the form of the Soviet Union, 'abandoned' israel way earlier than that - and not because israel wasn't going to become a workers' paradise, but because the Soviet Union aimed to get access to the Mediterranean and to foment revolutions in the oil-rich Arab countries after WWII, in order to damage its enemies ...

Good, concise account in this book - which I highly and urgently recommend!

284 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:47:20am

re: #220 zombie

Obama telegraphed his intention throughout the campaign that he was planning to throw Israel under the bus and embrace our enemies (like Iran). The mainstream American Jewish moderate left did everything they could to ignore or downplay this fact.

But when Obama follows through on his promises, the honeymoon with the moderate Jewish left will be over. There will be a great deal of anger if Obama makes the US be in an adversarial position to Israel, while coddling Hamas and Iran. It will spell big trouble for him.

I know someone, a Jewish Democrat -- probably the most "right-wing" person I know (i.e. he's not to the left of Trotsky) -- who was all gung-ho for Hillary early in the campaign, partly because she was promising to continue to be pro-Israel if elected. He was very down on Obama for his Israel stance. He would say all sorts of negative but valid things about Obama -- "I don't trust the guy when it comes to Israel," "He's going to legitimize the terror states," etc.

I didn't talk to him between September and this January. When I met him, I was curious -- who had he voted for? "Obama, of course!", he said grinning. He had totally drunk the Kool-Aid. He got swept up in Obamania after O won the nomination. Despite all his reservations about Obama, no way could he pull the lever for a Republican.

But if Obama throws Israel under the bus, this guy and millions like him will throw the Kool-Aid under the bus as well, and Obama's support will start to crumble. Big-time.

Disappointing. And sickening.

Don't count on it. Pay attention to the NJDC. Note that even though pro-Israel advocates were disappointed by the Biden and Kerry speeches at the AIPAC convention, they put the videos of them up!

Let's just say that there's plenty of Kool Aid (or lotus juice) to go around.

285 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:47:22am

re: #267 buzzsawmonkey

Hey, I got almost no sleep last night. One is bound to fall flat once or twice anyway, and in my current state, I'm overdue.

Been there, done that, all too much. :)

286 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:47:51am

re: #237 zombie

Yeah, me too.

Hey Zom!
I have a completely different take on American Liberal Jews..
I married one...
I am very careful to not mischaracterize the Views of my wife or my in-laws.
But I feel I have a little insite...
The hoopster deleted the last 30 minutes of posts about being married to a smoking hot liberal Jew..I'm just a nice guy..But I swear i have 10 million funny stories to tell yet....

287 calcajun  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:47:58am

re: #274 shiplord kirel

Want to see something nasty--watch an animal fight when it's cornered.

288 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:48:35am
289 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:48:56am

re: #252 Cato

There were probably 90 people at lunch. Someone asked a couple of questions and then asked how many people voted for Obama. About 80 pct raised their hands. Then they asked whether they would do it again. No hands.

There's ya go. Thanks for the anecdote. That's the kind of people I'm talking about.

290 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:49:20am

re: #270 zombie

I'm talking about moderate Jews who are pro-Israel and still consider themselves Democrats. It's a fairly large demographic group, in my observations.

It may be in your slice of reality, but not in mine. Most Jews here would breath a sigh of relief if Israel were to disappear some night.

291 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:49:23am

re: #264 zombie

OK, maybe by your definition then, I'm talking about the "moderate Jewish center." If your relatives are saying we should share Jerusalem with the PLO's descendants, they're somewhat more to the left than the type of folks I'm talking about.

You're probably talking about Jews who actually understand economics, hard work, and the rule of law, but are just too offended by the perception of GOP as dominated by fundies. Yeah, those Jews may come around. I actually know one -- he woke up after Oslo and voted for McCain solely b/c Israel. It's a start.

And since you seem to know so much about Jews, we should call you Zomberg.

292 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:49:32am

re: #275 Kosh's Shadow

I'll refrain from commenting on the back door.

However, we've already seen cooperation between India and Israel on weapons systems; I see that growing.
Watch the Israelis get Russian aircraft or copies from India and replace the avionics to produce aircraft that outclass the F-35.
Shades of 1948 when the IAF flew German aircraft supplied from Czechoslovakia.

Naw, this will get worked out. Unless there is a total break with the Obama Administrating, it will get worked out. And by back door I do not mean illegal ways. Just silent non publicized ways.

293 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:49:51am

re: #274 shiplord kirel


No, you get it wrong. Israel won't go it alone. The Arabs will be on their side against Iran.

294 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:49:59am

re: #220 zombie

Unfortunately, the only evidence that many American Jews (center and left-of-center) will accept to prove that Obama has thrown Israel under the bus will be the smoldering rubble of what was once Tel Aviv.

It's not that American Jews don't care about Israel. It's that they take Israel completely for granted and assume that there aren't any real threats to Israel's security. (And there are some - Tony Kushner is one - who resent the hell out of Israel robbing them of pitiable victimhood status.)

295 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:50:03am

re: #289 zombie

There's ya go. Thanks for the anecdote. That's the kind of people I'm talking about.

There's no where near enough of them.

296 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:50:04am

re: #284 dhg4

Don't count on it. Pay attention to the NJDC. Note that even though pro-Israel advocates were disappointed by the Biden and Kerry speeches at the AIPAC convention, they put the videos of them up!

Let's just say that there's plenty of Kool Aid (or lotus juice) to go around.

Nah, they're drinking Manischewitz. Ughhghghh

297 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:50:39am

re: #281 Kosh's Shadow

On canceling the Lavi fighter under US pressure, the pressure was that the US would restrict weapons sales and aid if they continued, and supply more weapons if they canceled it.
Denying access to the F-35 computer system removes all that leverage.

Yeah, but the Lavi was also cancelled because the costs were skyrocketting.

298 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:52:06am

re: #260 looking closely

Too little. . .too late.

Obama may already burning through his political capital like a drunken sailor, but ultimately he is still going to be Commander-in-Chief for four more years and responsible for American foreign policy.

He may not get the ability to execute every domestic program he wants, but his ability to affect foreign policy is still going to be strong for quite a while, and its pretty obvious his ideology isn't going to change.

Israel can't afford to wait four more years at this point.

Oh, I fully agree. They should have woken up before the election. Waking up now does them -- and israel -- no good.

But Obama's betrayal of Israel and of the taxpayers gives the Republicans a brilliant wide-open opportunity to run a staunchly pro-Israel social liberal but hawkish fiscal conservative and have a decent chance of beating O in 2012.

299 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:52:22am

re: #280 brookly red

China for one would love a nice port of call on the Mediterranean.

However, they want Arab oil, so it is hard to tell which way they'll go.
India, however, has been increasing cooperation with Israel; they have common enemies. Ever since India started leaving socialism behind and embracing capitalism, they've had a growing economy and are becoming more of a real power, instead of purely a paper one.

300 DaddyG  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:52:23am

re: #288 Iron Fist I like the Zombie Apocalypse Go To Guy shirt.

301 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:52:24am

re: #225 Nevergiveup

Tried that with the Lavi.

Yes, it would only be possible if the natural gas find gives Israel the financial independence to say no to the USA regarding weapons systems.

302 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:52:34am

re: #290 FurryOldGuyJeans

It may be in your slice of reality, but not in mine. Most Jews here would breath a sigh of relief if Israel were to disappear some night.

I wouldn't say that at all. It is just many are so naive that they think that nice Arabs would never do such a thing.

303 CIA Reject  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:53:04am

re: #297 Nevergiveup

Yeah, but the Lavi was also cancelled because the costs were skyrocketting.

It was a very ambitious project technically with lots of composite structures (like the whole wing) that had not been done previously on such a large scale.

Shame it was canned- it would have been one hell of an aircraft ...

304 StillAMarine  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:53:06am

OK, DIASPORA, ARE YOU READY TO DROP YOUR LEFTIST POLITICAL VIEWPOINT? Just what will it take to convince U.S. Jews that their beloved Obama is about to throw them under the bus?
I have attended more than one Jewish Federation organized meeting where the comments clearly indicate a pervasive Bush Derangement Syndrome, and an assumption that everybody else shares that view.
One of these days, ...

305 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:53:29am

re: #296 SFGoth

Nah, they're drinking Manischewitz. Ughhghghh

As raised in the Napa Valley... There should be a Capital punishment law to anyone that drinks Manischewitz wine. I don't care if it's the electric chair or firing squad..*wink*

306 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:53:33am

re: #284 dhg4

Don't count on it. Pay attention to the NJDC. Note that even though pro-Israel advocates were disappointed by the Biden and Kerry speeches at the AIPAC convention, they put the videos of them up!

Let's just say that there's plenty of Kool Aid (or lotus juice) to go around.

Putting the videos of the speeches up is also a way to let people know what Biden and Kerry are like. It doesn't mean endorsement of their position.

307 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:53:53am

re: #3 Iron Fist

Obama is not a friend to Israel. He has made his position very clear. He's not neutral, far from it. I has chosen the side I consider evil with his eyes wide open. After all that has happened, it is simply not credible to believe that he doesn't know who he is getting in bed with.

Obama is not a friend of anyone. Either he is the most stupid man alive or he is doing all of this deliberately.
And people followed him down the garden path.

308 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:53:55am

re: #299 Kosh's Shadow

However, they want Arab oil, so it is hard to tell which way they'll go.
India, however, has been increasing cooperation with Israel; they have common enemies. Ever since India started leaving socialism behind and embracing capitalism, they've had a growing economy and are becoming more of a real power, instead of purely a paper one.

Unfortunately, India wants Iranian oil.

309 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:54:53am

re: #302 Nevergiveup

I wouldn't say that at all. It is just many are so naive that they think that nice Arabs would never do such a thing.

I would because that is what I have been told by far too many. Naivety doesn't factor in when they more than once say what they want.

310 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:54:56am

Bye Bye, be back this evening after the show.

311 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:54:59am

re: #304 StillAMarine

OK, DIASPORA, ARE YOU READY TO DROP YOUR LEFTIST POLITICAL VIEWPOINT? Just what will it take to convince U.S. Jews that their beloved Obama is about to throw them under the bus?
I have attended more than one Jewish Federation organized meeting where the comments clearly indicate a pervasive Bush Derangement Syndrome, and an assumption that everybody else shares that view.
One of these days, ...

Like I said, a million dead Israelis in the smoldering ruins of Tel Aviv might do it. Might.

312 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:55:01am

re: #301 stuiec

Yes, it would only be possible if the natural gas find gives Israel the financial independence to say no to the USA regarding weapons systems.

It's just not that simple. Even the F-35 is only financially possible because it is being built with our Nato "Allies" and others to share the costs and buy the planes. Israel is way to small to do that on it's own.

313 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:55:07am

re: #298 zombie

Oh, I fully agree. They should have woken up before the election. Waking up now does them -- and israel -- no good.

But Obama's betrayal of Israel and of the taxpayers gives the Republicans a brilliant wide-open opportunity to run a staunchly pro-Israel social liberal but hawkish fiscal conservative and have a decent chance of beating O in 2012.

Like John McCain. :-(

314 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:55:13am

re: #274 shiplord kirel

It is an article of faith on the left that Israel survives only because of massive American military, and that justice seekers like Assad could easily force the uppity Zionists to be reasonable (ie die or disappear) if it weren't for that. Thanks to a constant drumbeat of propaganda in favor on behalf of this line, they are unaware that Israel survived its first 20 years without substantial military help from the US. A lib I know reacted with disbelief when I told him this and was astounded to learn, for example, that not a single American-built combat plane saw action with the IDF during the 1967 war.
Israel can go it alone if it comes to that. It won't be easy but with extinction as the only alternative, it is possible.

It is indeed.
Oren describes in his book of the 1967 war how in one of debates the politicians were still saying it might be better to wait yet a bit longer for a definite offer from pres Johnson, rather than go it alone.
whereupon one of the IDF generals said that this would make them in the eyes of the Arabs look like being incapable of standing on their own feet, and thus unworthy of having and living in Israel ...

315 brookly red  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:55:20am

re: #299 Kosh's Shadow

However, they want Arab oil, so it is hard to tell which way they'll go.
India, however, has been increasing cooperation with Israel; they have common enemies. Ever since India started leaving socialism behind and embracing capitalism, they've had a growing economy and are becoming more of a real power, instead of purely a paper one.

India is also a possibility, my point is that the US is not to only game in town & the Obama folks don't seem to get that point.

316 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:55:48am

re: #308 stuiec

Unfortunately, India wants Iranian oil.

And a good chunk of Americans want domestic oil and get told to "fuck off".

317 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:56:28am

re: #314 yma o hyd

{Yma} Hope today finds you well

318 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:56:35am

re: #304 StillAMarine

OK, DIASPORA, ARE YOU READY TO DROP YOUR LEFTIST POLITICAL VIEWPOINT? Just what will it take to convince U.S. Jews that their beloved Obama is about to throw them under the bus?
I have attended more than one Jewish Federation organized meeting where the comments clearly indicate a pervasive Bush Derangement Syndrome, and an assumption that everybody else shares that view.
One of these days, ...

It will take a tragedy unfortunately. And I left the Federation life for that reason and others.

319 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:57:21am

re: #309 FurryOldGuyJeans

I would because that is what I have been told by far too many. Naivety doesn't factor in when they more than once say what they want.

Well I never heard anything like that.

320 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:57:25am

OT: OMG! Michelle left the White House and had lunch at a DC restaurant!

[Link: dcist.com...]

Good Grief!

321 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:57:33am

re: #313 dhg4

Like John McCain. :-(

Oh whee, more of that, please. We don't have enough gruel as it is.

322 neocon hippie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:57:46am

re: #298 zombie


But Obama's betrayal of Israel and of the taxpayers gives the Republicans a brilliant wide-open opportunity to run a staunchly pro-Israel social liberal but hawkish fiscal conservative and have a decent chance of beating O in 2012.

Rudy's the only person that I can think of that fits the bill, but he blew his political capital last year, and the socons in the party wouldn't allow him.

323 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:58:06am

re: #307 Joan Not of Arc

re: #3 Iron Fist

Obama is not a friend of anyone. Either he is the most stupid man alive or he is doing all of this deliberately.
And people followed him down the garden path.

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Obama is a dear, close friend of International ANSWER.

324 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:58:10am

re: #275 Kosh's Shadow

I'll refrain from commenting on the back door.

However, we've already seen cooperation between India and Israel on weapons systems; I see that growing.
Watch the Israelis get Russian aircraft or copies from India and replace the avionics to produce aircraft that outclass the F-35.
Shades of 1948 when the IAF flew German aircraft supplied from Czechoslovakia.

It would be the height of irony if PB0, because of his politics of appeasing Iran and forsaking Israel, would drive her into the orbit of Putin - thus allowing Russia a foothold in the Mediterranean, something which the Soviet Union never was able to manage for very long ...

Seismic shifts in geopolitics ...

325 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:58:26am

re: #319 Nevergiveup

Well I never heard anything like that.

I wish I didn't have to hear it, but I do.

326 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:58:26am
327 Catttt  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:58:39am

re: #279 SFGoth

I wonder how many people regretted supporting Hitler. This will take a long time to recover from - long enough to permit a significant secular, conservatarian party to form. Or maybe space aliens will liberate us.

There are I suppose always people who run to the edge then scream and come back. I admire people who grab onto a post and refuse to be swept away. I always think of Oskar Werner (actor), a perfect Aryan type if ever there was one, who did everything possible to avoid serving. When drafted, he did everything possible to avoid being actually useful to the military (I remember him saying he fell off his horse a lot to avoid being made an officer).

328 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:58:49am

re: #305 HoosierHoops

As raised in the Napa Valley... There should be a Capital punishment law to anyone that drinks Manischewitz wine. I don't care if it's the electric chair or firing squad..*wink*

Drinking Manischewitz is its own punishment.

329 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:58:49am

re: #324 yma o hyd

It would be the height of irony if PB0, because of his politics of appeasing Iran and forsaking Israel, would drive her into the orbit of Putin - thus allowing Russia a foothold in the Mediterranean, something which the Soviet Union never was able to manage for very long ...

Seismic shifts in geopolitics ...

It will never happen

330 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:59:12am

re: #325 FurryOldGuyJeans

I wish I didn't have to hear it, but I do.

Where are you from?

331 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:59:35am

re: #313 dhg4

Like John McCain. :-(

Not really. He was too limp. More like Giuliani.

332 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:59:50am

re: #322 neocon hippie

Rudy's the only person that I can think of that fits the bill, but he blew his political capital last year, and the socons in the party wouldn't allow him.

The SoCons would rather commit suicide to giving even a micron by relaxing their agenda.

333 brookly red  Fri, May 8, 2009 10:59:58am

re: #329 Nevergiveup

It will never happen

My bet is China.

334 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:00:05am

I think if I went back to my comments pre-election, I had a pool on how many countries would cease to be before Obama's Presidency is over. I had 3: Georgia, Ukraine, & Taiwan. O's trying his hardest to make it four, though.

335 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:00:49am

re: #322 neocon hippie

Rudy's the only person that I can think of that fits the bill, but he blew his political capital last year, and the socons in the party wouldn't allow him.

Sad but true.

336 StillAMarine  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:00:53am

re: #311 stuiec

Like I said, a million dead Israelis in the smoldering ruins of Tel Aviv might do it. Might.

I hope you are wrong, but there is nothing more stubborn than a dead mule or a leftist Democrat.
The Diaspora is leftist for a good reason; in the early 20th century it was the Socialists and Communists that stood for the Jewish immigrants who were mostly poor and who faced incredible anti-Semitism.

337 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:01:17am

re: #306 Kosh's Shadow

Putting the videos of the speeches up is also a way to let people know what Biden and Kerry are like. It doesn't mean endorsement of their position.

Of course it does. This is the NJDC that we're talking about. (Actually they should reverse the J and the D because being a Democrat comes first!)

For another example, after Chas Freeman blamed the Israel lobby for sinking his nomination, the NJDC had an item about how awful that was. But they didn't raise a question about how someone with his baggage got nominated by the beyond-question pro-Israel Obama administration.

The NJDC's approach to anything having to do with Israel and the Democrats is like the Beatles "Nowhere Man."

He's as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,

338 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:01:33am

re: #335 zombie

I, too, was a Guiliani man.

339 littleben  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:01:47am

If I were the Israeli PM at the meeting;

Look, I understand that you don't like bs, so I will get to the point. You have made it clear that you don't much care for Likkudniks, and for our part we are not particularly fond of liberal koran reading Friends of Khalidi/Said Democrats.
Israel is faced with an existential threat. We will not compromise on our response to the threat of a second Holocaust; Never Again is not a slogan to us but a way of life.

Not that we have cleared that up, do what you feel you have to do; we've been there before. When Eisenhower forced Ben Gurion to withdraw from the Sinai, Israel was not in the hairtrigger of a nuclear device.But understand this; If you embark on a course of comduct which threatens our security we reserve all of our options.

By the way, you must have been briefed on the Mossad's reputation; well its performing even better today, what with the help its receiving from so many disaffected people in your intelligence community who loath you for your policies, and especially for your politicazation of the waterboarding issues.
So please don't be surprised if your college transcripts, medical records, and even details from your birth certificate are discovered by the media.
Its a shame that you never experienced the lessons one learns from military service, but may I share with you that as a former Israeli commando, and the brother of one of our greates martyred soldiers, Jonathan, the government of Israel will not shirk from its duty to its citizens, and indeed, democratic civilization.

Here is your gift, Mr President, its a dvd of the movie Exodus, starring one of your country's acting legends, Paul Newman.

340 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:01:53am

re: #336 StillAMarine

I hope you are wrong, but there is nothing more stubborn than a dead mule or a leftist Democrat.
The Diaspora is leftist for a good reason; in the early 20th century it was the Socialists and Communists that stood for the Jewish immigrants who were mostly poor and who faced incredible anti-Semitism.

Shit changes and so should they!

341 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:02:08am

re: #298 zombie

Oh, I fully agree. They should have woken up before the election. Waking up now does them -- and israel -- no good.

But Obama's betrayal of Israel and of the taxpayers gives the Republicans a brilliant wide-open opportunity to run a staunchly pro-Israel social liberal but hawkish fiscal conservative and have a decent chance of beating O in 2012.

The chances of the GOP nominating someone who's not: a creationist or a milquetoast are close to nil.

342 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:02:40am

re: #316 FurryOldGuyJeans

And a good chunk of Americans want domestic oil and get told to "fuck off".

The result of which is a foreign policy that has to take into account the desires of our oil suppliers. Not a good situation for us, not good for China relative to its Arab and African oil suppliers, not good for India relative to Iran and Burma, not good for Europe relative to Russia.

343 calcajun  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:03:15am

re: #293 Cato

What color is the sky in your world?

344 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:03:20am

re: #317 HoosierHoops

{Yma} Hope today finds you well

Hiya, {HH}!

Well - all the tiles are still on my roof, and the trees in the park still seem to be standing ...
We had a major gale (well, tis still ongoing), with no rain - very odd!
Hope you're fine, and hopefully you've recovered from your day off!
:-)

345 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:03:25am

re: #332 FurryOldGuyJeans

The SoCons would rather commit suicide to giving even a micron by relaxing their agenda.

I consider myself a social conservative, but Rudy was my pick. He may have been pro-choice, but IIRC, he agreed that RvW was bad Constitutional law & needs to be revisited. That's good enough for me.

346 Catttt  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:03:42am

re: #336 StillAMarine

I hope you are wrong, but there is nothing more stubborn than a dead mule or a leftist Democrat.
The Diaspora is leftist for a good reason; in the early 20th century it was the Socialists and Communists that stood for the Jewish immigrants who were mostly poor and who faced incredible anti-Semitism.

I knew a Romani guy - Hungarian - who had been saved by the communists. He wasn't really political, but he wouldn't hear a bad word about communists. They saved him as a child, and he never forgot it.

347 Dave the.....  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:03:46am

You kids see the Powerline link to the anti-Israeli products raid in a suburb of Paris?

348 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:04:19am

re: #220 zombie

Similar experiences here. I forwarded info posted here and elsewhere to multiple liberal Jews and others who were blindly for Obama.

Several have ended all communications with me.

It's going to be hard to keep an "I told you so" attitude suppressed and am waiting for them to broach the subject first.

Very sad and frustrating.

349 Cato  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:04:33am

re: #343 calcajun


There is one thing an Arab hates more than a Jew -- a Persian.

350 LGoPs  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:04:44am

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

Well then you must have an amazing little pocket of these wee-intentioned moderate Jewish liberal in you neck of the woods, because I don't and it is evident by some of the other posts her, a lot of other Lizards would like to know where this weird specie of liberal Jews are, because we don't see any.

This is the kind of stuff that makes one get lazy about the real issues, the real problems and the reality of what is happening.

No, I don't agree at all, the majority (the majority that matters) of moderate Jews do not have the same concern for Israel as most of us do.

And they will not be of any help in support Israel.

I've been scratching my head about that phenomenon for a long time. I'm a Gentile but it seems to me that I support Israel more passionately than many Jews do. Clearly my first loyalty is to America, but I support an America that is a strong friend and ally to Israel. We are brothers in our love for freedom and liberty and need to stand shoulder to shoulder in a hostile world.
Hard for me to understand this disconnect.

351 zombie  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:05:00am

re: #341 SFGoth

The chances of the GOP nominating someone who's not: a creationist or a milquetoast are close to nil.

Also sad but true.

I am beginning to really dread 2012.

352 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:05:08am

The Obama administration has renewed sanctions on Syria, a senior U.S. official said on Friday, despite Washington dispatching two top officials to Damascus this week to try to improve ties.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Anybody want to comment on this?

353 brookly red  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:06:08am

re: #352 Nevergiveup

The Obama administration has renewed sanctions on Syria, a senior U.S. official said on Friday, despite Washington dispatching two top officials to Damascus this week to try to improve ties.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Anybody want to comment on this?

they said no to O...

354 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:06:09am

re: #348 Bobibutu

Similar experiences here. I forwarded info posted here and elsewhere to multiple liberal Jews and others who were blindly for Obama.

Several have ended all communications with me.

It's going to be hard to keep an "I told you so" attitude suppressed and am waiting for them to broach the subject first.

Very sad and frustrating.

I can't say that happened to me, since I had long since cut all my ties with any liberal commie bastards and they with me.

355 Dave the.....  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:06:21am

One thing about Obama.....he is paying back his big contributors....UAW, AFSCME, Big Lawsuit, NEA, etc.

Somewhat blowing off the hard core anti-war left. Maybe they need to contribute more money to his campaign. It's kind of funny reading local peace freaks condemning The One.

356 Spider mensch  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:07:02am

all you need to do is look at his middle name....psst I'll give you a hint...it's HUSSEIN! HUSSEIN did ya catch that? I repeat...HUSSEIN!

the name you weren't suppose to say during the election...HUSSEIN!

I bet he don't mind now that he's in the office...

357 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:08:10am

re: #344 yma o hyd

Hiya, {HH}!

Well - all the tiles are still on my roof, and the trees in the park still seem to be standing ...
We had a major gale (well, tis still ongoing), with no rain - very odd!
Hope you're fine, and hopefully you've recovered from your day off!
:-)


Be safe friend.. 2 days off..I never get the flu or sick..All I can do is lay on the couch watching the Science Channel and blogging here..In between trips to the bathroom..
It's pathetic.. oh and little Winston...He stands guard outside the door like he is my best friend or something..Who gave him that idea?

358 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:08:43am

re: #339 littleben

We can dream ...

Nice stuff, btw - especially the advice about PB0's paper trail ...

359 funky chicken  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:08:50am

re: #32 FurryOldGuyJeans

The $17 billion is to include removing funds for paying states the cost of jailing illegals.

When is the next 15 Minute Hate?

The program is popular with border-state politicians on Capitol Hill, however, making its elimination a tough sell to lawmakers, particularly from California.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) has repeatedly pushed for additional funding for the program, and lawmakers from other states that have costs associated with illegal aliens have also offered support.

A bipartisan trio of House members from California have drafted a letter urging the House Appropriations subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies to restore funding for the SCAAP program. The three members, Reps. Mike Honda (D), Adam Schiff (D) and Jerry Lewis, the top Republican on the Appropriations Committee, are also asking the rest of the California House delegation to sign the letter, Honda's office said.

If Jerry Lewis (R, Porkmeister extraordinaire) and DiFi are for the program, I support killing it.

Maybe those border states will enact tough anti-illegal immigrant legislation if they don't get federal dollars to help incarcerate the felons among them.

360 Lynn B.  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:08:56am

Meanwhile, at J Street, the self-declared "political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement," they're still in very deep denial.

Stand with Obama on Israel and Iran

The battle lines are emerging clearly around President Obama's Middle East agenda. The President intends to achieve a negotiated resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in his first term and to address the challenges Iran poses through diplomacy.

His opponents, meanwhile, are trying to rally Congress to thwart his agenda. With one hand they're opposing the President's proposed approach to working with a possible Palestinian unity government; with the other, they are proposing aggressive new sanctions on Iran just as diplomatic outreach begins.

Good grief!

361 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:10:00am

re: #360 Lynn B.

Meanwhile, at J Street, the self-declared "political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement," they're still in very deep denial.

Stand with Obama on Israel and Iran

Good grief!

These are the people I can't be around least I become violent.

362 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:10:14am

re: #336 StillAMarine

I hope you are wrong, but there is nothing more stubborn than a dead mule or a leftist Democrat.
The Diaspora is leftist for a good reason; in the early 20th century it was the Socialists and Communists that stood for the Jewish immigrants who were mostly poor and who faced incredible anti-Semitism.

I'll give you a better reason. In the late 19th century, America absorbed a wave of Jewish immigrants from Easter Europe who'd lived under the Tsar and the Austro-Hungarian Emperor, and who saw Communism as the salvation of oppressed Jews.

My great-grandparents were among them. My great-grandmother went back to Russia on a visit in the 1930s and saw the Potemkin villages -- how wonderful things were under Comrade Stalin! Much later, one of her cousins escaped from the Soviet Union and visited her in Los Angeles. When he told her the truth about how Stalin treated the Jews, she became so upset that my great-grandfather had to show the man the door.

Another interesting case study are the Jewish chicken farmers of Petaluma, CA. My great-uncle on the other side of the family was one of them -- a member of the CPUSA. He was actually tarred and feathered by members of the American Legion for working with the Party to organize an apple pickers' strike in the 1930s: tarred, feathered, and marched naked at 3 AM through the streets of Santa Rosa. (By the way, the strike was broken, the apples rotted on the trees that year, and the apple pickers had to leave to find other work to keep from starving.)

363 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:10:21am

re: #352 Nevergiveup

The Obama administration has renewed sanctions on Syria, a senior U.S. official said on Friday, despite Washington dispatching two top officials to Damascus this week to try to improve ties.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Anybody want to comment on this?

Shapiro and Feltman are apparently rather realistic about Syria.

Feltman is a gutsy guy who did an impressive job as Ambassador to Lebanon, and is clear-eyed about Syria, Hezbollah, and Iran.

Dan Shapiro wrote many of Obama's Middle East speeches during the campaign, and acted as a liaison to the Jewish community. Earlier he worked for Senaor Bill Nelson of Florida, and played a major role in drafting the 2003 Syria Accountability Act,.

(the above analysis was written by Steve Rosen, one of the two ex-AIPAC employees who was recently exonerated.)

364 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:10:47am

re: #359 funky chicken

Problem One: Immigration is a Federal issue.

Problem Two: California, a MAJOR entry point, is already well past broke.

365 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:11:13am

re: #331 zombie

Not really. He was too limp. More like Giuliani.

I leaned towards someone like Fred Thompson myself, but nearly anyone would have been a better choice than Senator Maverick. Rudy would have been a much easier choice to blacken in the square on the ballot.

366 StillAMarine  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:11:45am

re: #346 Catttt

The Nazi's treated the Romani just as bad as they did the Jews. I really cannot blame the old guy for his soft feelings for those who saved him -- too much. But as NeverGiveUp says, "Shit changes, and so should they."

367 CIA Reject  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:11:59am

re: #349 Cato

There is one thing an Arab hates more than a Jew -- a Persian.

By the same token whenever I want to piss off my Persian (Iranian) neighbor I call him an Arab ...

368 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:12:00am

re: #354 Nevergiveup

I can't say that happened to me, since I had long since cut all my ties with any liberal commie bastards and they with me.

Well - liberal commie tools of course.

Most liberal Jews I know are not commies.

369 yma o hyd  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:12:24am

re: #357 HoosierHoops

Be safe friend.. 2 days off..I never get the flu or sick..All I can do is lay on the couch watching the Science Channel and blogging here..In between trips to the bathroom..
It's pathetic.. oh and little Winston...He stands guard outside the door like he is my best friend or something..Who gave him that idea?

Sorry to hear that - have a speedy recovery!
As for Winston - you are his friend!
Mind - if you were thinking of taking him into the bathroom to give him a shampoo, he'd be off like streaked lightning!

370 funky chicken  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:12:35am

re: #348 Bobibutu

Similar experiences here. I forwarded info posted here and elsewhere to multiple liberal Jews and others who were blindly for Obama.

Several have ended all communications with me.

It's going to be hard to keep an "I told you so" attitude suppressed and am waiting for them to broach the subject first.

Very sad and frustrating.

I had a similar experience with devout Roman Catholic pro-lifers.

Hey, they voted for the guy, and now they all want to holler at Notre Dame for inviting him to give a speech? idiotic

371 calcajun  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:13:08am

re: #339 littleben

Paul Newman.

Such a nice boy. What a punim he had. Pity he married the shiksa.//

If this happens, I am sure Israel will answer once and for all whether or not it has nuclear weapons. The question is how will they be deployed--tactically or strategically.

372 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:14:09am

re: #368 Bobibutu

Well - liberal commie tools of course.

Most liberal Jews I know are not commies.

Well my hyperbole can get away from me, but I just can't stand being in the same room as these people anymore.

373 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:14:09am

re: #370 funky chicken

I had a similar experience with devout Roman Catholic pro-lifers.

Hey, they voted for the guy, and now they all want to holler at Notre Dame for inviting him to give a speech? idiotic

Democrat - Big Tent Party
Roman Catholic Church - not so much

374 MacDuff  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:14:11am

re: #352 Nevergiveup

The Obama administration has renewed sanctions on Syria, a senior U.S. official said on Friday, despite Washington dispatching two top officials to Damascus this week to try to improve ties.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Anybody want to comment on this?

It would appear that Obama's faerie dust spewing unicorn are as unwelcome as pigs in Syria.

375 funky chicken  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:14:16am

re: #364 OldLineTexan

Problem One: Immigration is a Federal issue.

Problem Two: California, a MAJOR entry point, is already well past broke.

Oklahoma's anti-illegal alien legislation was quite effective in reducing the population of illegals and the state's fiscal problems associated with the issue.

376 joncelli  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #297 Nevergiveup

It had technical problems too. The F-16 was readily available and it worked at a reasonable price.

377 calcajun  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:14:51am

re: #349 Cato

Sorry--I do not see it ever happening. They might turn a blind eye to a strike against Iran's nuclear weapons facilities- but they will never ally themselves with Israel against another Muslims nation.

378 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:14:59am

re: #291 SFGoth

And since you seem to know so much about Jews, we should call you Zomberg.

How about "Golem"?

379 Digital Display  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:15:38am

re: #369 yma o hyd

Sorry to hear that - have a speedy recovery!
As for Winston - you are his friend!
Mind - if you were thinking of taking him into the bathroom to give him a shampoo, he'd be off like streaked lightning!

That is so true..I have learned before a shampoo to shut every door in the house..There is no way to catch him otherwise...

380 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:15:43am

re: #376 joncelli

It had technical problems too. The F-16 was readily available and it worked at a reasonable price.

It isn't so easy to build a top notch fighter/bomber from the ground up.

381 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:16:24am

re: #375 funky chicken

Oklahoma's anti-illegal alien legislation was quite effective in reducing the population of illegals and the state's fiscal problems associated with the issue.

I can throw my leaves over the fence into my neighbor's yard, too.

Doesn't make it a solution to lawn waste.

382 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:16:41am

re: #370 funky chicken

I had a similar experience with devout Roman Catholic pro-lifers.

Hey, they voted for the guy, and now they all want to holler at Notre Dame for inviting him to give a speech? idiotic

I can't make up my mind whether the world is slipping further and further into dysfunction and insanity or we just have the means to be more aware of what's going on.

383 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:17:31am

re: #342 stuiec

The result of which is a foreign policy that has to take into account the desires of our oil suppliers. Not a good situation for us, not good for China relative to its Arab and African oil suppliers, not good for India relative to Iran and Burma, not good for Europe relative to Russia.

The problem is that we have willfully given our enemies the weapon they hold to our throats. By catering to the whims of the greens and enviro-nazis we can't reduce our dependence on foreign oil and still retain any level of economic prosperity. The minute we show any real signs of ramping up domestic production to cut off the siphoning off of petro-dollars, our "allies" will strangle our supply. It is no wonder why both Bush and O kowtowed to the Saudis.

384 Mad Mullah  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:18:25am

I've said it before, but liberal Jews are the worst and it didn't just suddenly start with Obama. 79 percent of American Jews voted for Al Gore, 74 percent of American Jews voted for Kerry and 78 percent of the idiots voted for Obama.
If David Duke were to run as a democrat nominee next time around, 3/4 of American Jews would probably vote for the guy.

385 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:18:32am

re: #378 looking closely

How about "Golem"?

Doesn't have that pun panache. You'd also have to either study European history or play Dungeons & Dragons.

386 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:19:11am

re: #383 FurryOldGuyJeans

The problem is that we have willfully given our enemies the weapon they hold to our throats. By catering to the whims of the greens and enviro-nazis we can't reduce our dependence on foreign oil and still retain any level of economic prosperity. The minute we show any real signs of ramping up domestic production to cut off the siphoning off of petro-dollars, our "allies" will strangle our supply. It is no wonder why both Bush and O kowtowed to the Saudis.

We need (more) nuclear plants. The green weenies are forcing the country to STAY on foreign oil and make pollution, etc.

387 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:19:35am

re: #385 SFGoth

Doesn't have that pun panache. You'd also have to either study European history or play Dungeons & Dragons.

Or watch The Simpsons.

388 joncelli  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:19:51am

re: #355 Dave the.....

Hmmm....Is Ralph Nader still alive? Or else, say. Cindy Sheehan for president in 2012! Split off the crazies and the Dems lose their fanatical footsoldiers. Bwahahaha, time to set up an exploratory committee...

389 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:20:27am

re: #372 Nevergiveup

Well my hyperbole can get away from me, but I just can't stand being in the same room as these people anymore.

I'm not clear on who "these people" are that you refer to.

Liberal nut jobs I understand. Most liberal Jews I have no problem with.

390 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:22:28am

re: #362 stuiec

In the late 19th century, America absorbed a wave of Jewish immigrants from Easter Europe who'd lived under the Tsar and the Austro-Hungarian Emperor, and who saw Communism as the salvation of oppressed Jews.

My great-grandparents were among them.

Mine were too.

391 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:22:42am

re: #389 Bobibutu

I'm not clear on who "these people" are that you refer to.

Liberal nut jobs I understand. Most liberal Jews I have no problem with.

Most of my liberal Jewish Friends and Family. I need more than few stiff drinks before family functions to survive without exploding or walking out. And Liberals in general.

392 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:23:20am

re: #360 Lynn B.

Meanwhile, at J Street, the self-declared "political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement," they're still in very deep denial.

Stand with Obama on Israel and Iran

Good grief!

I think it means "Stand with Obama in the bus that he threw Israel under"

393 Mad Mullah  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:23:32am

re: #389 Bobibutu

I'm not clear on who "these people" are that you refer to.

Liberal nut jobs I understand. Most liberal Jews I have no problem with.

Liberal Jew is practically synonymous with liberal nut-job, and I don't associate with liberal nut-jobs regardless of their ethnicity or their religion.

394 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:24:39am

re: #391 Nevergiveup

Most of my liberal Jewish Friends and Family. I need more than few stiff drinks before family functions to survive without exploding or walking out. And Liberals in general.

Did I write this post? I swear, I can't tell I didn't write it.

395 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:24:53am

re: #292 Nevergiveup

Naw, this will get worked out. Unless there is a total break with the Obama Administrating, it will get worked out. And by back door I do not mean illegal ways. Just silent non publicized ways.

But there is a total break with the Obama Administration, as the Jerusalem Post points out: The Rupture.

396 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:25:22am

re: #384 Mad Mullah

On this topic of Jews reflexively voting for Dems. . .That's been the way for 30+ years. That's not going to change in one election cycle, regardless of how anti-Israel the candidate is.

Why do Jews vote for Democrats?

Answer here.

It probably comes historically to the (currently false) perception of the Republicans as the party of fundamentalist Christian Jew-haters. Also historically, socialism/communism and other leftist/collectivist ideas where everyone is going to be "equal" have extra appeal to a people that has historically been singled out for persecution.

If its any consolation, more and more of the younger and Orthodox Jews are going Republican.

397 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:26:12am

UN team to probe Gaza war
Human rights experts preparing to investigate alleged IDF 'war crimes' call for Israel's cooperation
International human rights experts examining alleged war crimes in the Gaza Strip said on Friday they planned to visit soon, and renewed a call for Israel to support their investigation.

Peres tells Ban 'we made mistakes in Gaza' / Yitzhak Benhorin
President meets with UN secretary-general, rejects claims IDF deliberately targeted UNWRA facilities during recent operation. 'I admit that we made some mistakes, but I do not know of any war without mistakes. We did not want to kill a single civilian
An Israeli government official said last month that the Jewish state would not cooperate with the United Nations inquiry into violations by Hamas and the IDF during the December 27-January 18 offensive in Gaz

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Get out the Vaseline.

398 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:27:33am

re: #60 avanti

No spin, just a different opinion. While I agree the US must support Israel, we should not support new settlements, or settlement expansion in occupied territories. It's disingenuous to say on one hand that you are working for a two state solution while expanding settlements that will later have to be abandoned in a possible peace agreement.
The "perception" in the Arab world has been that we have not been a honest broker when it comes to our middle east relations. The Plali's may never accept even a sweetheart, but we need to keep trying IMHO.
There is no doubt that BHO will piss off the right trying to broker a peace deal, we just don't know how much.

Avanti -

Just one question. Why must Israel have double digit Arab minorities, and the New Palestine be Juderein? Pray tell?
That is all.

-S-

399 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:27:41am

re: #395 stuiec

But there is a total break with the Obama Administration, as the Jerusalem Post points out: The Rupture.

Time will tell. But I am not optimistic. But Total break is another story.

400 Arrr  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:30:20am

I don't see why there's a big outrage over Obama inheriting and finishing what Bush started.

It was Bush who first supported - and pushed for - the two state solution, and Condoleeza Rice was constantly pissed off at the construction of new settlements and the refusal to remove settlements from the West Bank. Tzipi Livni, Michael Oren, Ariel Sharon, and so many other pro-Israel patriots support a withdrawal from the West bank and a two state solution.

This has nothing to do with the "root cause" of terrorism, or what the Arab street thinks of us. Bush, Sharon, Livni, and Obama all have the same goal in mind - the continued existence of a strong, democratic, Jewish state living in peace and security. Netanyahu's well intentioned refusal to support a two state solution would have gotten the same response from McCain if he had been elected, or if Bush served a third term. Hell, Livni and a very god portion of the Israeli public feel the same way about Netanyahu.

It's moonbattery to suggest that the root cause of Islamist rage are Israeli settlements. But it's perfectly sane and reasonable to support a two state solution and a withdrawal from the West bank while still having a full understanding of what Islamist fascism is all about. You might as well call Sharon, Oren, Livni, Bush, Rice, Powell, etc moonbats if you think it's unreasonable.

401 funky chicken  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:30:31am

re: #381 OldLineTexan

I can throw my leaves over the fence into my neighbor's yard, too.

Doesn't make it a solution to lawn waste.

So CA should just continue to do nothing to combat illegal immigration but to sit back and demand more and more of those sweet federal dollars?

402 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:30:34am

re: #383 FurryOldGuyJeans

The problem is that we have willfully given our enemies the weapon they hold to our throats. By catering to the whims of the greens and enviro-nazis we can't reduce our dependence on foreign oil and still retain any level of economic prosperity. The minute we show any real signs of ramping up domestic production to cut off the siphoning off of petro-dollars, our "allies" will strangle our supply. It is no wonder why both Bush and O kowtowed to the Saudis.

I generally agree - except that when we showed signs last year of preparing to ramp up domestic supply, OPEC pumped more oil to bring down the price and lull us back to sleep.

Regardless of whether they turn the spigot off or all the way open, we can't continue to allow them to control that big a chunk of our energy needs.

That comes back to the question of Israel's self-defense. If Israel develops a major offshore natural gas field -- if the discovery is real and practical -- then it will be energy-independent and wealthy enough to fund its own weapons production.

Meanwhile, perhaps someone in the Obama Administration will wake up to the fact that it's in the interests of the Gulf Arab oil states to keep Iran from getting a bomb, which makes the issue an American national security and economic security interest above and beyond the security of Israel.

403 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:31:46am

re: #391 Nevergiveup

Most of my liberal Jewish Friends and Family. I need more than few stiff drinks before family functions to survive without exploding or walking out. And Liberals in general.

Yes - I have come across that. Most of my Jewish relatives that I know are conservative.

404 Mad Mullah  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:32:29am

re: #396 looking closely
It probably comes historically to the (currently false) perception of the Republicans as the party of fundamentalist Christian Jew-haters.

There's no doubt that the left is where you'll find most of the anti-semites and people who yearn for the destruction of Israel. There might be a tiny handful of neo-nazis, white supremacists and those types who get identified as being to the right, but I'd easily say that there are ten times as many Jew haters that belong to the left. The left is where most of them are, and the left is also where the Islamic terrorist supporters and cheerleaders can be found.

405 SFGoth  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:32:53am

re: #403 Bobibutu

Yes - I have come across that. Most of my Jewish relatives that I know are conservative.

Do you have a cute, conservative Jewishgirl cousin who's cool with the goth scene and looks :ubersexlich in a corset?

406 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:34:36am

re: #400 Arrr

I don't see why there's a big outrage over Obama inheriting and finishing what Bush started.

. . . it's perfectly sane and reasonable to support a two state solution and a withdrawal from the West bank while still having a full understanding of what Islamist fascism is all about. You might as well call Sharon, Oren, Livni, Bush, Rice, Powell, etc moonbats if you think it's unreasonable.


The issue isn't the two state solution by itself. Pretty much *everyone* agrees that this will happen *eventually*.

The issue is the apparent insistence that any action against Iranian nuclear progress would be predicated on progress towards a two State solution.

In short, there can't be a "two state" solution, if one of the two states. . .Israel. . .is destroyed by a nuclear armed Iran.

Again, Iran doesn't have to actually detonate a bomb to use it to great effect. Just having one will tip the regional balance of power in its favor, and it can escalate its proxy war (via Syria, Gaza, Lebanon) against Israel, as well as against the USA.

407 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:34:36am

re: #401 funky chicken

So CA should just continue to do nothing to combat illegal immigration but to sit back and demand more and more of those sweet federal dollars?

Nice swat using a false premise.

Your beginning position is incorrect. The states are not in charge of who immigrates to the US ... the Federal Government is.

Now, getting the Feds to do the job ... I'm all for that. The Feds allowing states to do the job ... I'm for that, too. But if it's not uniform, it's not going to solve the problem.

And I will guarantee you that if enough states pull an "Oklahoma", you will see a case before the Supes with the US on the illegal aliens' side.

408 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:34:48am

re: #360 Lynn B.

Meanwhile, at J Street, the self-declared "political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement," they're still in very deep denial.

Stand with Obama on Israel and Iran

Good grief!

Lynn B. -

With the present participants, a Palestinian Unity Government is akin to one made up of Gambinos, Luccheses, and Colombos.

-S-

409 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:36:14am

re: #403 Bobibutu

Yes - I have come across that. Most of my Jewish relatives that I know are conservative.

Can I come to your house for seder?

410 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:38:22am

re: #392 Kosh's Shadow

I think it means "Stand with Obama in the bus that he threw Israel under"

No, it means "Stand with Obama on Israel and Iran... and keep standing there as he deftly steps out of the way of the oncoming bus." (What confuses me is that the bus driver seems to be Rahm Emmanuel.)

411 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:39:14am

re: #398 Dr. Shalit

Avanti -

Just one question. Why must Israel have double digit Arab minorities, and the New Palestine be Juderein? Pray tell?
That is all.

-S-

I know! I know!

It's because Israel is an apartheid state. Jimmy Carter said so.

412 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:39:32am

re: #404 Mad Mullah
There's no doubt that the left is where you'll find most of the anti-semites and people who yearn for the destruction of Israel. There might be a tiny handful of neo-nazis, white supremacists and those types who get identified as being to the right, but I'd easily say that there are ten times as many Jew haters that belong to the left. The left is where most of them are, and the left is also where the Islamic terrorist supporters and cheerleaders can be found.


This is empirically obvious to any objective observer of the situation.

In fact not only is what you are saying true (that the Jew-haters are mostly leftists nowadays), but as a group the supposedly Jew-hating Religious right is actually the biggest non-Jewish supporting bloc of Israel.

The sad thing, is that I've had this conversation with a few older Jews who really ought to know better (ie how can you support those Dems when all the leftists hate Jews and Israel?), and I get looks like I'm insane. They still don't believe it.

413 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:40:45am

re: #410 stuiec

No, it means "Stand with Obama on Israel and Iran... and keep standing there as he deftly steps out of the way of the oncoming bus." (What confuses me is that the bus driver seems to be Rahm Emmanuel.)

stuiec -

When you think of Rahm Emmanuel - think of Herod - it would NOT surprise me if Rahm does.

-S-

414 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:40:51am

re: #400 Arrr

I don't see why there's a big outrage over Obama inheriting and finishing what Bush started.

It was Bush who first supported - and pushed for - the two state solution, and Condoleeza Rice was constantly pissed off at the construction of new settlements and the refusal to remove settlements from the West Bank. Tzipi Livni, Michael Oren, Ariel Sharon, and so many other pro-Israel patriots support a withdrawal from the West bank and a two state solution.

This has nothing to do with the "root cause" of terrorism, or what the Arab street thinks of us. Bush, Sharon, Livni, and Obama all have the same goal in mind - the continued existence of a strong, democratic, Jewish state living in peace and security. Netanyahu's well intentioned refusal to support a two state solution would have gotten the same response from McCain if he had been elected, or if Bush served a third term. Hell, Livni and a very god portion of the Israeli public feel the same way about Netanyahu.

It's moonbattery to suggest that the root cause of Islamist rage are Israeli settlements. But it's perfectly sane and reasonable to support a two state solution and a withdrawal from the West bank while still having a full understanding of what Islamist fascism is all about. You might as well call Sharon, Oren, Livni, Bush, Rice, Powell, etc moonbats if you think it's unreasonable.

You might ask Ariel Sharon if in hindsight he still thinks his decision to withdraw from Gaza was the right one. (But you might have to wait for a very long time for the answer.)

415 Arrr  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:41:27am

re: #406 looking closely

The issue isn't the two state solution by itself. Pretty much *everyone* agrees that this will happen *eventually*.

The issue is the apparent insistence that any action against Iranian nuclear progress would be predicated on progress towards a two State solution.

In short, there can't be a "two state" solution, if one of the two states. . .Israel. . .is destroyed by a nuclear armed Iran.

Again, Iran doesn't have to actually detonate a bomb to use it to great effect. Just having one will tip the regional balance of power in its favor, and it can escalate its proxy war (via Syria, Gaza, Lebanon) against Israel, as well as against the USA.

A lot of this is just politics and posturing. Middle East politics is usually about saying one thing, while meaning another. If the West sees the concept of a two-state solution as some form of leverage over Iran, even if that concept is empty and meaningless, they will use it.

Prior to 1948, David Ben-Gurion knew the rules of the game, and declared independence when he had the right timing and concepts in the appropriate place. The Soviet Union was the 2nd country to recognize Israel, in spite of their "anti-imperialist" bluster.

416 Spare O'Lake  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:42:08am

The "special relationship" has been special all right.
US policy has successfully prevented Israel from achieving decisive military victories in 1967, 1973, Lebanon and Gaza.
While Israel has historically been largely dependant on the USA for its military technology and supplies, this dependancy has been steadily decreasing while at the same time Israel has increasingly been required to pay full freight for the arms.
With the maturation of Israel's military production capabilities it may finally be time for Israel to call Obama's hand and to tell him to go shove his efforts to dictate the terms of his duplicitous and unrealistic vision of Middle East peace.

417 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:43:26am

Shmuel Rosner of the Jerusalem Post: "Does the Democratic Majority have a problem with Israel?"

These are the specific reasons I listed for which the Democratic majority might have a problem with Israel – or maybe it’s Israel that might have a problem with the Democratic majority:

Substantive reasons:

- Because Democrats want to make peace with the Arab world, and Israel is standing in their way.

- Because Democrats want to make peace with the rest of the world and Israel stands in their way.

- Because Democrats tend to adopt risk-averse policies on foreign policy matters, not wanting to risk "another Iraq" or "another blunder".

- Because Democrats - and Americans in general - think more about domestic, economic issues, and just want the world to go away.

- Because Democrats have turned "dialogue" and "engagement" into new religion, and Israel seems to be skeptical of their new gods.

- Because experts with liberal tendencies recommend more "balance", believing that such balance can provide for new openings in the peace process.

- Because the tied has turned and America now abandons Jacksonian, aggressive, policies - and finds it hard to sympathies with countries pursuing military means on a daily basis.

Political reasons:

- Because this Democratic majority is committed to the success of the Obama administration - and if confrontation between Obama and Israel occurs the legislators might find it difficult to side with Israel.

- Because Democratic voters, as I've shown earlier, support Israel less than Republican voters.

- Because Jewish Americans - an important sub-group in the Democratic establishment - are less supportive of Israel than they once were (again, I will not bore you with numbers, but the proof is overwhelming).

- Because as I've demonstrated, one can now have it both ways: claiming to be supportive of Israel while pursuing policies traditionally considered un-supportive, relying on so-called pro-Israel groups.

- Because in recent years the cause of Israel was conquered by Republicans, making it much less appealing for Democratic legislators.

- Because Bush was considered very supportive of Israel - and for the time being everything Bush was doing is anathema for Democrats.

418 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #416 Spare O'Lake

The "special relationship" has been special all right.
US policy has successfully prevented Israel from achieving decisive military victories in 1967, 1973, Lebanon and Gaza.
While Israel has historically been largely dependant on the USA for its military technology and supplies, this dependancy has been steadily decreasing while at the same time Israel has increasingly been required to pay full freight for the arms.
With the maturation of Israel's military production capabilities it may finally be time for Israel to call Obama's hand and to tell him to go shove his efforts to dictate the terms of his duplicitous and unrealistic vision of Middle East peace.

Don't forget 1956, Sinai.

419 Arrr  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:44:53am

re: #414 stuiec

You might ask Ariel Sharon if in hindsight he still thinks his decision to withdraw from Gaza was the right one. (But you might have to wait for a very long time for the answer.)

If Ariel Sharon had not had a stroke, he would have done what Ehud Olmert couldn't, and withdrawn from the West Bank.

With a nascent Palestine unoccupied by any foreign presence, so much as a single mortar shot into Israel would give Israel the legal right to pound the belligerents into oblivion. The Islamists would singlehandedly lose their BS excuse about the "occupation" being a motivator. The UN would bitch and moan as usual, but unlike the Gaza siege they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

420 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:45:32am

re: #413 Dr. Shalit

stuiec -

When you think of Rahm Emmanuel - think of Herod - it would NOT surprise me if Rahm does.

-S-

Now I see Rahm singing Herod's song from JC Superstar, or its updated version, Barack Superstar

421 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:45:40am

re: #405 SFGoth

Do you have a cute, conservative Jewishgirl cousin who's cool with the goth scene and looks :ubersexlich in a corset?

Sounds like my older sister tho I can't confirm the last item personally her former boyfriends must think so.

422 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:49:32am

re: #409 Nevergiveup

Can I come to your house for seder?

I usually attend public ones - but if I do have one at home - certainly - possibly a new experience for you. :-)

423 dhg4  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:52:02am

re: #360 Lynn B.

Meanwhile, at J Street, the self-declared "political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement," they're still in very deep denial.

Stand with Obama on Israel and Iran


Good grief!

Did you notice that J-Street's M J Rosenberg found the Meshal interview encouraging? Did you notice that a day later Hamas was firing on Israel again and the Meshal claimed that he had been misquoted (I think) about keeping to the ceasefire?

These people should have no credibility. They unthinkingly stand with our enemies affecting a superior attitude towards those of us who remain skeptical. And no matter how many times their pleas for peace, love and understanding are thrown back in their faces, they insist that theirs is the only way.

424 Mad Mullah  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:52:30am

re: #412 looking closely
The sad thing, is that I've had this conversation with a few older Jews who really ought to know better (ie how can you support those Dems when all the leftists hate Jews and Israel?), and I get looks like I'm insane. They still don't believe it.

You should tell them to wear a tiny star of david necklace and have them visit a bunch of European liberal, leftist countries, and simply walk down the street and see what happens to them. That might change their mind.

425 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:53:03am

re: #415 Arrr
To be clear, Netanyahu is not against a two state solution in principle. He just thinks (and IMO rightly so), that the Palestinians aren't ready to manage their own State at this time, and that forcing it to happen artificially right now would be counterproductive.

You've heard that old chestnut about insanity being repeating the exact same thing again and again but expecting a different outcome. Its been the arrogance of every American political administration in the last 30 years to expect that it can sponsor negotiations that will produce a state, when the fundamental realities on the ground haven't changed.

In terms of Iran, again, an Iran with nukes will inevitably mean more agitation by Iran with its local proxies against Israel. So to the extent that the two issues are related, a functional Palestinian State is less likely to take route with a nuclear-armed Iran than without one.

426 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:56:00am

re: #419 Arrr

If Ariel Sharon had not had a stroke, he would have done what Ehud Olmert couldn't, and withdrawn from the West Bank.

With a nascent Palestine unoccupied by any foreign presence, so much as a single mortar shot into Israel would give Israel the legal right to pound the belligerents into oblivion. The Islamists would singlehandedly lose their BS excuse about the "occupation" being a motivator. The UN would bitch and moan as usual, but unlike the Gaza siege they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Oh, you mean the distinct advantage of having to fight the Palestinians on two fronts? And in case you hadn't noticed, Israel has a basic reluctance to pound the belligerents into oblivion, being rather concerned with avoiding civilian casualties on the enemy side (thus showing more concern for those civilians' lives than the enemy itself does).

Plus, of course, the domestic political advantage from having even more settlers being dragged out of even more settlements by Israeli soldiers -- and ensuring that Jews never again had access to the holy places of the West Bank. I am sure that would have helped Sharon's re-election prospects.

Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza was a bad mistake. Gaza needs a wall like the West Bank wall, and a fence or screen above that wall to detonate Qassam and Katyusha and Grad rockets in mid-flight. One hopes that it doesn't come down to a need for a total reconquest of Gaza.

427 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:57:31am

re: #421 Bobibutu

Sounds like my older sister tho I can't confirm the last item personally her former boyfriends must think so.

But why are they former boyfriends? What's the matter with her, that she can't keep them?

/I kid, I kid.

428 nyc redneck  Fri, May 8, 2009 11:59:05am

o rehired m.e. "expert" samantha powers after he was forced to let her go for calling hillary a monster.
interesting it doesn't seem to matter to o that she has stated that the way to solve the conflict is to bring the u.s. military in to subdue israel aggressors.
unfckingbelievable. and he got 70 or 80% of the jewish vote.
that is heartbreaking.
o is worse than jimmy carter.
o's allegiance is w/ the moslems.
he has said that the most beautiful sound in the world is the
"islamic call to prayer"

429 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:00:34pm

re: #415 Arrr

A lot of this is just politics and posturing. Middle East politics is usually about saying one thing, while meaning another.


Ahh! That explains something I've wondered about for a while.

People keep saying that Obama brought Chicago politics to the White House. But now I see that he's actually brought Middle East politics to the White House.

430 Sparmageddon  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:05:13pm

re: #25 Honorary Yooper

This is how things are done in politics in Illinois. Welcome to Chicago-style politics writ large.


I have lived in Chicago all my life. Don't get me started on Chicago politics. I had a long rant going but decided against it and deleted it. It came down to this. How did a community organizer in the mid to late 80's (did nothing for the Altgeld Gardens projects which was one of his communities) then go to Havard, come back to Chicago in the early 90's to buy an expensive condo in Hyde Park community, become a Jr. Senator then propped up to run for president (when originally asked, he said he does not have the experience) then run for and get elected POTUS on barely 12 years of meaningless politics? How does that happen without some kind a lot of BS behind it? Bah...

*spit*

431 NY Nana  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:07:34pm

re: #361 Nevergiveup

These are the people I can't be around least I become violent.

Same here. Lynn B is far braver than I. I refuse to even look at it.

And thank you, Charles, for this thread. I fear for Israel, and I also fear for the American Jewish community. Never in my life have I feared a president would try to aid in the destruction of the Jewish state. As much as I detested Carter the Jew hater and Clinton? IMHO, Hussein is an actual danger to Israel, but also to those of us who are American Jews.

The cult of islam and Jew haters the world over must be salivating over what is happening.

/And meanwhile American Jews like Atlas make kissy-face with the neo-nazis, totally unaware that she is aiding and abetting the wave of in your face Jew hate brought to the forefront, as they see Hussein spitting on the Jews.

432 Mad Mullah  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:13:27pm

re: #431 NY Nana

/And meanwhile American Jews like Atlas make kissy-face with the neo-nazis,

I don't condone making alliances with neo-nazis, but what 78 of American Jews are doing is worse than what she is doing in my opinion.

433 Mad Mullah  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:14:31pm

* 78 percent

434 looking closely  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:22:59pm

re: #424 Mad Mullah

The sad thing, is that I've had this conversation with a few older Jews who really ought to know better (ie how can you support those Dems when all the leftists hate Jews and Israel?), and I get looks like I'm insane. They still don't believe it.

You should tell them to wear a tiny star of david necklace and have them visit a bunch of European liberal, leftist countries, and simply walk down the street and see what happens to them. That might change their mind.


Well, I'm sure they wouldn't like that, though persistent European anti-Semitism is a separate issue.

What might change their mind is if they went to some of these anti-War rallies, which are inevitably populated by Jew-hating Israel-hating leftists.

But their minds aren't open. They're closed. That's the whole problem.

435 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:23:35pm

re: #427 stuiec

But why are they former boyfriends? What's the matter with her, that she can't keep them?

/I kid, I kid.

No offense taken ... now in her late 60s she's been thru a few. Fiercely independent - she stopped being a doormat sometime in the late 70s if memory serves me.

436 [deleted]  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:25:21pm
437 quickjustice  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:35:01pm

All of America's longtime allies, including Israel, need to understand that the United States is no longer your friend, and can no longer be counted upon.

438 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:37:16pm

re: #390 Mad Al-Jaffee

By the way, your nic is hysterical! Do you specialize in snappy comebacks to stupid questions?

439 stuiec  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:39:59pm

re: #435 Bobibutu

No offense taken ... now in her late 60s she's been thru a few. Fiercely independent - she stopped being a doormat sometime in the late 70s if memory serves me.

I am thinking SFGoth is looking for someone born well after the '60s, not someone IN her late 60s...

440 vitoc  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:53:24pm

I think this comment here is spot on: Your text to link...

The real test to the relationship between the Israel and the US will be how successfull the IDF will be in shutting down the Iranian nuke program. If they do their job as well as I hope, Obama will have to simply accept the new realities on the ground. If they fail however, Israel will be in the most dangerous situation since 1948. I suspect we will find out within a year.

441 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 8, 2009 1:03:56pm

re: #439 stuiec

I am thinking SFGoth is looking for someone born well after the '60s, not someone IN her late 60s...

Ya never know - boy toys seem to be the rage again.

442 Kobalt  Fri, May 8, 2009 1:07:06pm

"76 percent of Jewish voters approved of Obama's performance "

What the ef?! I'm embarrassed to share my religion with 76% of my people.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

443 heyou  Fri, May 8, 2009 2:07:48pm

re: #158 SFGoth

Bye bye Miss American Jew
You put Obama in the Whitehouse
But the Messiah hates you
And good ol' commies drinking hatred and wry
Singing that'll be the day that she dies,
That'll be the day 'srael dies

Wow this comment is so negative I can't believe it got updings. Meanwhile it was Bush that proposed the roadmap to palestine and Condaleeza's visit's to Israel weren't exactly friendly. This kind of negativity is just what Israel and her people doesn't need. Prayers would be good, or if your an atheist, positive thoughts. There's no point in pointing fingers and blaming. Like the song says, together we stand divided we fall.

444 NY Nana  Fri, May 8, 2009 2:46:00pm

re: #443 heyou

I agree with you, and down-dug that remark.

It is disgusting, IMHO. Thanks for posting about it, as I missed it earlier.

445 Lynn B.  Fri, May 8, 2009 2:52:43pm

re: #444 NY Nana

I agree with you, and down-dug that remark.

It is disgusting, IMHO. Thanks for posting about it, as I missed it earlier.

Ditto.

446 NY Nana  Fri, May 8, 2009 2:59:06pm

re: #445 Lynn B.

I still feel queasy after that one. Feh!

Shabbat shalom.

447 Hawaii69  Fri, May 8, 2009 4:04:35pm

re: #2 Alouette

Obama will try to turn Israel into another South Africa Auschwitz.

Wow...hysterical, and a complete lack of class. Congrats.

448 Hawaii69  Fri, May 8, 2009 4:09:06pm

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

It is becoming all too obvious that Israel is approaching her Red Dawn moment.

They're going to face a suprise attack by Soviet & Cuban paratroopers, only to be saved by a group of High School students?

449 Pupdawg  Fri, May 8, 2009 4:16:20pm

re: #77 Kosh's Shadow

The MFMSM is already discrediting the Republicans. By the next election, the MSM will treat only the Democrats as mainstream, everyone else as loonies, like the Libertarians and Communists are treated now.

The MFMSM have ample assistance discrediting the Republicans from more than a few conservatives as well.
It seems we conservatives, Republicans or not, are imploding. The MFMSM has honed a new skill along with their ability to 'throw' an election for their man. They have christened us the walking dead and we appear more than eager to eat our own. The chant of 'brains' fills the stagnant conservative airwaves as we search hill and dale for a lone conservative voice to bring order. We are becoming so very pathetic with a quickness.

450 Hawaii69  Fri, May 8, 2009 4:18:42pm

re: #108 MrSilverDragon

1. The "perception" in the Arab world is "Kill every Jew, push them into the sea." (for a MAJORITY of the Arab population.).

And you base this fact on what, precisely.

451 ReneeJoy  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:33:43am

re: #410 stuiec

... What confuses me is that the bus driver seems to be Rahm Emmanuel.

This is what I don't get either. Does anyone understand this?

452 tsionguy  Sun, May 10, 2009 7:53:57pm

re: #451 ReneeJoy

Rahm Emmanuel, like many Chicago politicians, is only loyal to himself. Rumor has it his campaign lied about him serving in the Israeli army, and injuring a finger in combat. He has a famously violent temper. He has expressed hostility towards any Jews living in the West Bank. Since moving to Chicago, I have learned more than I care to know about him. Feh!

453 tsionguy  Sun, May 10, 2009 8:19:39pm

re: #146 Spiritualized

Ethinically cleansing 200,000+ Jews from Judea/Samaria will not end 1,400 years of Islamic imperialism, in fact it will only encourage it further.

Actually, it's closer to 300,000 in the West Bank (aka Judea/Samaria/Shomron), and 200,000 in East Jerusalem. So now we're talking about a half million Jews forcibly evicted from their homes to make way for a future Pal State. Outrageous!
My idea? Leave the Jewish towns alone and demand that any future Pal state recognize all Jews living in their territories as full citizens. Israel should stand firm on this principle, just as the Pals stand firm on their "right of return." All the Arabs in Israel are full citizens, and those that live in East Jerusalem can become citizens any time they wish. If the future Pal state can't tolerate an 10% Jewish minority, then they should be publicly called out as anti-semites (the anti-Jewish variety).

454 tsionguy  Sun, May 10, 2009 8:46:27pm

re: #293 Cato

No, you get it wrong. Israel won't go it alone. The Arabs will be on their side against Iran.

What in the world gives you that impression? Hezbullah is Shia Arab, Hamas is Sunni Arab, Syria is Sunni Arab, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is Sunni Arab. All of them strongly support Iran. Even the countries that have signed treaties with Israel, Lebanon and Egypt, would never fight along side Israel. Not in our lifetimes.


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