Discover: Why Does the Vaccine/Autism Controversy Live On?

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Health • Sat May 9, 2009 at 6:12 pm PDT • Views: 379

Discover Magazine has an excellent article by Chris Mooney on the anti-vaccination insanity that crosses political boundaries, and is now becoming a major risk to public health: Why Does the Vaccine/Autism Controversy Live On?

Vaccines do not cause autism. That was the ruling in each of three critical test cases handed down on February 12 by the U.S. Court of Federal Claims in Washington, D.C. After a decade of speculation, argument, and analysis—often filled with vitriol on both sides—the court specifically denied any link between the combination of the MMR vaccine and vaccines with thimerosal (a mercury-based preservative) and the spectrum of disorders associated with autism. But these rulings, though seemingly definitive, have done little to quell the angry debate, which has severe implications for American public health.

The idea that there is something wrong with our vaccines—that they have poisoned a generation of kids, driving an “epidemic” of autism—continues to be everywhere: on cable news, in celebrity magazines, on blogs, and in health news stories. It has had a particularly strong life on the Internet, including the heavily trafficked Huffington Post, and in pop culture, where it is supported by actors including Charlie Sheen and Jim Carrey, former Playboy playmate Jenny McCarthy, and numerous others. Despite repeated rejection by the scientific community, it has spawned a movement, led to thousands of legal claims, and even triggered occasional harassment and threats against scientists whose research appears to discredit it.

You can see where the emotion and sentiment come from. Autism can be a terrible condition, devastating to families. It can leave parents not only aggrieved but desperate to find any cure, any salvation. Medical services and behavioral therapy for severely autistic children can cost more than $100,000 a year, and these children often exhibit extremely difficult behavior. Moreover, the incidence of autism is apparently rising rapidly. Today one in every 150 children has been diagnosed on the autism spectrum; 20 years ago that statistic was one in 10,000. “Put yourself in the shoes of these parents,” says journalist David Kirby, whose best-selling 2005 book, Evidence of Harm, dramatized the vaccine-autism movement. “They have perfectly normal kids who are walking and happy and everything—and then they regress.” The irony is that vaccine skepticism—not the vaccines themselves—is now looking like the true public-health threat.

Read the whole thing…

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350 comments

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1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:13:39pm

Teeny Tiny coffin industry is trying to keep the myth alive!

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:15:58pm

Why does the controversy live on? Because some people are raving stupid.

3 brookly red  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:16:22pm

re: #1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

that was just plain wrong.

4 DEZes  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:16:53pm

Unfounded paranoia, ignorance and stuck on stupid.
Thats about my take on the anti-vaxers.

5 opilio  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:17:35pm

re: #1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Teeny Tiny coffin industry is trying to keep the myth alive!

A House fan?

6 Mithrax  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:17:44pm

I can't figure out if it's fear or a desire for personal power and control.

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:17:53pm

re: #3 brookly red

that was just plain wrong.

From House.

8 The Other Les  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:18:13pm

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why does the controversy live on? Because some people are raving stupid.

Beat me to it.

9 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:18:17pm

Darwin at work.

10 DEZes  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:18:55pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

From House.

Is a great show.

11 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:19:11pm

Why does the controversy live on? Because some people don't want to acknowledge that life is unfair and the cosmos doesn't care what happens.

12 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:20:05pm

When a large percentage of Americans can be conned into believing that 9-11 was an inside job, I think it's a very easy sell to convince people that immunizations can cause Autism.

PT Barnum was correct about the birth rate of suckers

13 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:20:28pm

re: #8 The Other Les

Beat me to it.

A rarity of happening, I might add.

14 brookly red  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:20:47pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

From House.

Oh, you saw it on TV? well that changes everything, my bad.

15 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:20:59pm

re: #10 DEZes

Is a great show.

I've watched "House" a few times myself. I enjoy it now and then, but the medicine in it is so stupidly inaccurate that it's kind of hard for me to sit through an episode.

16 albusteve  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:22:14pm

re: #14 brookly red

Oh, you saw it on TV? well that changes everything, my bad.

TV does change everything...exactly right...I disdain 95% of it

17 DEZes  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:22:41pm

re: #15 Last Mohican

I've watched "House" a few times myself. I enjoy it now and then, but the medicine in it is so stupidly inaccurate that it's kind of hard for me to sit through an episode.

I just watch sometimes, I would not have known the quote from the above post.
I just enjoy hose being a prick. ;)

18 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:23:19pm

OT:

The man who killed my friend Ben Teague has been found.

Dead.

Dug his own grave, lay down in it, and put a bullet through his brain.

No comment.

19 DEZes  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:23:21pm

re: #17 DEZes

I just watch sometimes, I would not have known the quote from the above post.
I just enjoy hose being a prick. ;)

House, pimf

20 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:24:37pm

re: #11 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why does the controversy live on? Because some people don't want to acknowledge that life is unfair and the cosmos doesn't care what happens.

"Life is unfair princess. And anyone trying to tell you differently is trying to sell you something." ---Dread Pirate Roberts to Princess Buttercup.

21 albusteve  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:26:04pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

OT:

The man who killed my friend Ben Teague has been found.

Dead.

Dug his own grave, lay down in it, and put a bullet through his brain.

No comment.

strange...good riddance

22 wrenchwench  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:26:05pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

Wow.

23 DEZes  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:26:36pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

OT:

The man who killed my friend Ben Teague has been found.

Dead.

Dug his own grave, lay down in it, and put a bullet through his brain.

No comment.

No words.

24 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:26:52pm

People are profoundly uncomfortable with "I don't know." When it's a distance "I don't know" putting "here be dragons" on a map sufficed. When your own child is affect "I don't know" doesn't cut it.

They seek any answer, especially one that has a protagonist to blame. It much easier to view a world where things all have a cause, and are not happenstance or the statistical probabilities.

When things have a cause, the rage and grief has an outlet, it gives them them something controllable in an uncontrolled situation.

25 DEZes  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:28:42pm

re: #24 jcm

People are profoundly uncomfortable with "I don't know." When it's a distance "I don't know" putting "here be dragons" on a map sufficed. When your own child is affect "I don't know" doesn't cut it.

They seek any answer, especially one that has a protagonist to blame. It much easier to view a world where things all have a cause, and are not happenstance or the statistical probabilities.

When things have a cause, the rage and grief has an outlet, it gives them them something controllable in an uncontrolled situation.

They seek to place blame, in short, on anyone or anything.
Founded or not.
Its pathetic.

26 DEZes  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:30:39pm

Thanks for keeping me company today Lizards.
Have a great one.

27 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:30:45pm

Autism striking your child because of a whim of the universe, or worse yet because of something you did, is not acceptable. Blame has to be put somewhere.

And many people think like children. Except instead of the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, there's, well, you name it.

28 Zimriel  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:30:47pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

OT:

The man who killed my friend Ben Teague has been found.

Dead.

Dug his own grave, lay down in it, and put a bullet through his brain.

No comment.

I don't know what to say either, except to offer my sympathies once again and to be glad that at least he won't be harming anyone else.

29 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:31:44pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

They should have left him there as fertilizer.

30 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:32:39pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

OT:

The man who killed my friend Ben Teague has been found.

Dead.

Dug his own grave, lay down in it, and put a bullet through his brain.

No comment.

Damn. Well, even if he is not judged by his peers, he will be judged by the Almighty and history. Regardless of the way he is judged, it will never remove the stain of pain he caused.
My condolences, Cato.

31 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:33:32pm

re: #29 Shug

They should have left him there as fertilizer.

Nah, there's rules against dumping toxic waste...

32 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:34:12pm

re: #27 HelloDare

Autism striking your child because of a whim of the universe, or worse yet because of something you did, is not acceptable. Blame has to be put somewhere.

And many people think like children. Except instead of the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, there's, well, you name it.

Indeed.

People just can't accept randomness. A maleficent actor must always exist. If not readily identifiable, then a conspiracy.

33 Zimriel  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:37:32pm

re: #31 BlueCanuck

Nah, there's rules against dumping toxic waste...

More to the point, there's rules - GOOD rules - against disposing of human remains. He killed himself near a school, the selfish bastard. His corpse could have attracted rats and the rats could have migrated over to the school.

34 VioletTiger  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:38:14pm

re: #32 Cato the Elder

Indeed.

People just can't accept randomness. A maleficent actor must always exist. If not readily identifiable, then a conspiracy.


It must be devastating to have a child with a severe difficulty. I think the vaccine conspiracy gives them a reason why, when there really isn't one.

35 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:38:41pm

re: #25 DEZes

They seek to place blame, in short, on anyone or anything.
Founded or not.
Its pathetic.

I'm more tolerate of parents of autistic children, I think Jenny McCarthy's campaign goes too far and should be challenged.

Any anti-vaxer without an autistic child is a large scale child abuser, they are causing harm.

36 Idle Drifter  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:39:01pm
As for thimerosal, government precautions notwithstanding, it was never clear how threatening it might be. The federal mercury standards that first heightened concern were developed for methylmercury, not ethylmercury, the form contained in thimerosal. Ethyl­mercury has less risk of accumulating to a toxic dose because it does not last as long in the body. And, according to the IOM’s 2004 report, there had never been any evidence of a major incident of mercury poisoning leading to autism.

People would be surprised how much the human body can withstand or what gets filtered out through the natural process.

37 hazzyday  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:41:54pm

maybe another revealing article for them would be "Why people don't trust science?"

I certainly value science to a high degree but I definitely do not trust scientists, big government or courts. I have been involved in all three and often personal motive and personal prejudice colors the decisions in all three.

Latest studies pointing to a genetic starting point

38 hazzyday  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:43:36pm
39 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:44:38pm

I just returned from the Discover article. A good read. Thanks, Charles.

40 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:45:21pm

re: #37 hazzyday

maybe another revealing article for them would be "Why people don't trust science?"

I certainly value science to a high degree but I definitely do not trust scientists, big government or courts. I have been involved in all three and often personal motive and personal prejudice colors the decisions in all three.

Latest studies pointing to a genetic starting point

People don't trust science because they don't understand science because we don't teach science.

And the frakkin' IDers aren't helping!

41 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:45:47pm

Advanced parental age is linked to autism.

vaccines aren't

Maybe Orpah can have Strom Thurmond's widow and baby mama on her show instead of Jenny McCarthy and Fire Marshall bob or whatever his name is

42 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:49:07pm

Whoa.. Charles linked to my science web site..Thank you Charles!

43 shortshrift  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:49:26pm

Why do the anti-vaxers believe what they do?
Fear of the known.

44 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:50:06pm

re: #42 HoosierHoops

Whoa.. Charles linked to my Favorite science web site..Thank you Charles!


whoopsie!

45 Idle Drifter  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:51:18pm
Jenny McCarthy wants to “green our vaccines,” pointing to many other alleged toxins that they contain.

How in the hell do you make a "Green" vaccine?

//Just for that I'm loading the flamethrowers with biodiesel and a corn syrup based thickener agent.

46 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:51:37pm

re: #40 jcm

People don't trust science because they don't understand science because we don't teach science.

And the frakkin' IDers aren't helping!

And science reporting is abysmal. I don't understand why there aren't linked to the research or abstracts in science articles. They never seem to mention the numbers of people in medical studies, the length of time, dosage, type of medication a bunch of stuff that I a non-scientists wants to know.

47 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:51:38pm

re: #45 Idle Drifter

How in the hell do you make a "Green" vaccine?

//Just for that I'm loading the flamethrowers with biodiesel and a corn syrup based thickener agent.

Green dye #40?

48 Spare O'Lake  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:52:33pm
Medical services and behavioral therapy for severely autistic children can cost more than $100,000 a year...
Moreover, the incidence of autism is apparently rising rapidly. Today one in every 150 children has been diagnosed on the autism spectrum; 20 years ago that statistic was one in 10,000.

Wow...that is a 66 fold increase.
Something very bad is happening to our children and noone seems to know why. No wonder parents are vulnerable to superstition and manipulation.
But what is the medical and political establishments' excuse...those bastards.
How about if they get down to business and with government funding undertake the necessary research and studies to find the real cause of this scourge, instead of wasting time and rainsing false hopes?

49 ted  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:53:01pm

The Autism-Thimersol-Vaccine link never stood up, ever. Mercury poisoning is a very well described illness which is nothing like Autism[ see "Mad Hatters Disease]: You also need to ingest massive amounts greater than found in vaccines.
The increase in Autism most likely is due to increased screening for it and its symptoms.

50 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:53:21pm

re: #46 HelloDare

And science reporting is abysmal. I don't understand why there aren't linked to the research or abstracts in science articles. They never seem to mention the numbers of people in medical studies, the length of time, dosage, type of medication a bunch of stuff that I a non-scientists wants to know.

And when "science" is reported it's a scare study invariably from NRDC or CSIPI or some other group with a political agenda and science by press release.

51 pat  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:53:49pm

Edwardian science. As in John Edwards. That is why such bad science lives on. Breast implants, AGW, CO2 as poison. contagious asbestosis, cancer cluster voodoo stats, all driven by lawyers who have convinced people that someone must be at fault for the interruption of a perfect life.

52 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:53:59pm

Delusions of control. They can't control the causes of autism, so they do the next best blood-letting thing - eliminate the most obvious scary sounding substance.

53 Spare O'Lake  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:54:16pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

Wow...that is a 66 fold increase.
Something very bad is happening to our children and noone seems to know why. No wonder parents are vulnerable to superstition and manipulation.
But what is the medical and political establishments' excuse...those bastards.
How about if they get down to business and with government funding undertake the necessary research and studies to find the real cause of this scourge, instead of wasting time and rainsing false hopes?

raising.

54 SummerSong  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:55:14pm

Obama on TV again? I see him more than I see some members of my own family.

55 gman  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:55:35pm

The "Big Pharma colluding to perpetuate vaccines containing mercury with government officials" theory is just another classic conspiracy theory:

The article, The Lure of The Conspiracy Theory, by Dr. Patrick Leman, is a fascinating peek at some forthcoming research and some of the reasons that conspiracy theories garner belief. For instance, Leman explains the seduction of “major event - major cause” reasoning, where “people often assume that an event with substantial, significant or wide-ranging consequences is likely to have been caused by something substantial, significant or wide-ranging”. Leman further explains that such reasoning is seductive because it prevents a chaotic and unpredictable relationship between cause and effect (as might be the case when major effects have minor and mundane causes)

56 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:55:53pm

Why don't Republicans get a Playboy playmate to promote government fiscal discipline?

57 pat  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:56:04pm

"Green vaccine" = Cow milker with cow pox having the pustules pierced with a needle, then results jabbed into patient. Very quaint and natural. What could go wrong?

58 Idle Drifter  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:56:42pm

re: #47 jcm

Green dye #40?

The same dye the use for St. Patty's Day?


Some Flogging Molly.
59 hazzyday  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:56:46pm

re: #27 HelloDare

Autism striking your child because of a whim of the universe, or worse yet because of something you did, is not acceptable. Blame has to be put somewhere.

And many people think like children. Except instead of the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, there's, well, you name it.

Most parents of ASD kids love them. While one can certainly blame the general ignorance of society about ASD most of them are just looking for an understanding and an explanation. I think the autism studies in science are becoming more precise and focused. There is a time correlation in the onset of ASD. It seems to occur frequently in kids about the time they get their MMR shots. Logically the science says there is no association between the two, anecdotal experiences say there might be to people who are unfamiliar with the science.

I think one of the caveats of illness is that people generally don't get self involved in them unless it is personal in some manner. I used to think this was ludicrous. But now I think today that is the main way support is given to fixing an illness.

60 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:56:51pm

re: #54 SummerSong

Obama on TV again? I see him more than I see some members of my own family.

Did you see the article regarding the poll that verified that more people are having dreams about Obama? No kidding. Me too,but I'm having nightmares.

61 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:57:13pm

re: #57 pat

"Green vaccine" = Cow milker with cow pox having the pustules pierced with a needle, then results jabbed into patient. Very quaint and natural. What could go wrong?

Famous last words - What could possible go wrong?

62 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:57:21pm

re: #54 SummerSong

Obama on TV again? I see him more than I see some members of my own family.

SS ... not on my tv ... wait ... tomorrow Shelley will be portrayed as the "BEST MOTHER EVAH" ...

63 neocon hippie  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:57:49pm

From the article:

But in 2006 Shattuck came under fire after he published an article in the journal Pediatrics questioning the existence of an autism epidemic. No one doubts that since the early 1990s the number of children diagnosed with autism has dramatically increased, a trend reflected in U.S. special education programs, where children enrolled as autistic grew from 22,445 in 1994–1995 to 140,254 in 2003–2004. Yet Shattuck’s study found reasons to doubt that these numbers were proof of an epidemic. Instead, he suggested that “diagnostic substitution”—in which children who previously would have been classified as mentally retarded or learning disabled were now being classified on the autism spectrum—played a significant role in the apparent increase.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

64 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:57:50pm

re: #61 DistantThunder

Famous last words - What could possibley go wrong?

65 SummerSong  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:58:38pm

re: #60 DistantThunder

Ugh. Luckily, he stays out of my dreams!

66 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:59:00pm

re: #61 DistantThunder

Famous last words - What could possible go wrong?

Right up there with:

Hey, hold my beer!

and

Hey, watch this!

67 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:59:15pm

They now say the key is genetic. Will these nut jobs be held liable for the building crisis?

68 VioletTiger  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:59:22pm

re: #60 DistantThunder

Did you see the article regarding the poll that verified that more people are having dreams about Obama? No kidding. Me too,but I'm having nightmares.

Dreams about Obama? Oh for Pete's sake.

69 SummerSong  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:59:37pm

re: #62 JacksonTn

It's the White House correspondents dinner.

70 ted  Sat, May 9, 2009 6:59:39pm

re: #63 neocon hippie

From the article:

But in 2006 Shattuck came under fire after he published an article in the journal Pediatrics questioning the existence of an autism epidemic. No one doubts that since the early 1990s the number of children diagnosed with autism has dramatically increased, a trend reflected in U.S. special education programs, where children enrolled as autistic grew from 22,445 in 1994–1995 to 140,254 in 2003–2004. Yet Shattuck’s study found reasons to doubt that these numbers were proof of an epidemic. Instead, he suggested that “diagnostic substitution”—in which children who previously would have been classified as mentally retarded or learning disabled were now being classified on the autism spectrum—played a significant role in the apparent increase.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

That sums it up nicely.

71 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:00:12pm

re: #66 jcm

Right up there with:

Hey, hold my beer!

and

Hey, watch this!

First you pour the gasoline...

72 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:00:22pm

re: #69 SummerSong

It's the White House correspondents dinner.

SS ... isn't that suppose to be a "funny" affair? ... Obama cannot do "funny" ...

73 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:00:47pm

re: #68 VioletTiger

Dreams about Obama? Oh for Pete's sake.

Wasn't there a NYT article about how lots of American women were having repeated sexual fantasies about him?

74 ted  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:01:08pm

re: #73 Last Mohican

Wasn't there a NYT article about how lots of American women were having repeated sexual fantasies about him?

[Link: newsbusters.org...]

75 dmandman  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:01:14pm

The programmers epitaph:

But it was only a one line change!

76 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:01:22pm

re: #64 DistantThunder

Another Attack of the Typo Elves, eh? ;)

77 Idle Drifter  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:01:34pm

re: #57 pat

"Green vaccine" = Cow milker with cow pox having the pustules pierced with a needle, then results jabbed into patient. Very quaint and natural. What could go wrong?

I seen that on John Adams gruesome. Thank God medicine has made some serious advances.

78 hazzyday  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:01:36pm

re: #49 ted

The Autism-Thimersol-Vaccine link never stood up, ever. Mercury poisoning is a very well described illness which is nothing like Autism[ see "Mad Hatters Disease]: You also need to ingest massive amounts greater than found in vaccines.
The increase in Autism most likely is due to increased screening for it and its symptoms.

I don't think the anti-vaxers think mercury poisoning is occruing like mad hatters disease. They think the vaccine weakens the immune system or affects an already weakened immune system and the mercury alters neurological development at that age. The studies show otherwise, but the studies essentially reside in an ivory tower. Doctors probably know best how difficult it is to convey the science.

79 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:01:52pm

re: #75 dmandman

The programmers epitaph:

But it was only a one line change!

An apt analog for the genetic code...

80 VioletTiger  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:02:03pm

re: #63 neocon hippie

From the article:

But in 2006 Shattuck came under fire after he published an article in the journal Pediatrics questioning the existence of an autism epidemic. No one doubts that since the early 1990s the number of children diagnosed with autism has dramatically increased, a trend reflected in U.S. special education programs, where children enrolled as autistic grew from 22,445 in 1994–1995 to 140,254 in 2003–2004. Yet Shattuck’s study found reasons to doubt that these numbers were proof of an epidemic. Instead, he suggested that “diagnostic substitution”—in which children who previously would have been classified as mentally retarded or learning disabled were now being classified on the autism spectrum—played a significant role in the apparent increase.

This makes a lot of sense to me.


I think this explains a lot. Better (or different) diagnosis, not a huge increase in actual cases.

81 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:02:03pm

re: #76 FurryOldGuyJeans

Another Attack of the Typo Elves, eh? ;)

I am a total victim...

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:02:30pm

re: #66 jcm

Right up there with:

Hey, hold my beer!

and

Hey, watch this!

Yeah, let's deep fat fry the turkey this year right next to the house with a fryer filled to the brim with oil.

83 SummerSong  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:02:35pm

Supposed to be, yes. Just more of him reading what someone has written for him. * Yawn*

84 Idle Drifter  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:03:35pm

re: #66 jcm

Right up there with:

Hey, hold my beer!

and

Hey, watch this!

Don't forget:

Think of the children!

85 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:03:38pm

re: #81 DistantThunder

I am a total victim...

Buggers are very sneaky. They do their business on my comments a lot.

86 ted  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:04:10pm

re: #78 hazzyday

I don't think the anti-vaxers think mercury poisoning is occruing like mad hatters disease. They think the vaccine weakens the immune system or affects an already weakened immune system and the mercury alters neurological development at that age. The studies show otherwise, but the studies essentially reside in an ivory tower. Doctors probably know best how difficult it is to convey the science.

There is no proof that mercury in miniscule amounts weakens the immune system.

87 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:04:18pm

re: #84 Idle Drifter

Don't forget:

Think of the children!

Hey kid! Get me 'nother beer!

88 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:04:20pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yeah, let's deep fat fry the turkey this year right next to the house with a fryer filled to the brim with oil.

Starting with the frozen turkey...

89 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:04:26pm

Think of Britian...or something like that...

90 tradewind  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:04:36pm

O/T...
Obama at the WH Correspondents' dinner:
Painful.
Dubya was sooo much better...

91 Gus  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:04:38pm

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why does the controversy live on? Because some people are raving stupid.

It as if we need an anti-stupid vaccine. Seems to be rampant these days. A couple of days ago I was talking to someone that I shoot the breeze with from time to time. Suddenly she came out with some rather strange theory that the Swine flu was just a government test and something to the effect of "the government wants to kill us."

92 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:04:48pm

re: #85 FurryOldGuyJeans

Buggers are very sneaky. They do their business on my comments a lot.

They are in collusion with the gremlins in your keyboard.

/need more beer sprayed into it, keeps them too drunk to cause problems.

93 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:05:14pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yeah, let's deep fat fry the turkey this year right next to the house with a fryer filled to the brim with oil.

Or like the Big Seattle Winter Storm of a few years ago...

Lets run generators and fire up BBQs INSIDE!

94 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:05:37pm

re: #90 tradewind

O/T...
Obama at the WH Correspondents' dinner:
Painful.
Dubya was sooo much better...

Totalitarians are not very funny. In fact, they can't tolerate humor well at all...as narcissists they are too fragile.

95 ted  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:05:54pm

re: #86 ted

There is no proof that mercury in miniscule amounts weakens the immune system.

Vaccines stimulate the immune system.

96 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:05:57pm

re: #93 jcm

Or like the Big Seattle Winter Storm of a few years ago...

Lets run generators and fire up BBQs INSIDE!

VENTILATE!

97 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:05:59pm

re: #91 Gus 802

Suddenly she came out with some rather strange theory that the Swine flu was just a government test and something to the effect of "the government wants to kill us."

What? And totally ruin their tax base?

98 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:06:07pm

re: #16 albusteve

TV does change everything...exactly right...I disdain 95% of it

There's a line in the book Walk on Water (which is about the Cleveland Clinic's Pediatric Cardiac Surgery program and world famous heart surgeon Roger Mee): Baby is airlifted into the clinic with a major heart defect, is practically dying, the parents arrive soon after. They are told that their son is in the Catherization lab, and that Dr. Mee will be down to speak to them as soon as he reads the Cath report. Try not to worry, you are in the best place for this type of procedure, and Dr, Mee is one of the best surgeons in the world.

The wife answers "I've never heard of him. If he's so famous, why hasn't he been on Montel?"

/Jeebus, Lady!

99 tradewind  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:06:16pm

re: #91 Gus 802

You can't really blame her... after all, HIV was created in government labs specifically to wipe out the minority population, after spreading all that crack in their neighborhoods failed...
/sarc alert/

100 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:06:17pm

re: #95 ted

Vaccines stimulate the immune system.

Duh. Makes me want to cry.

101 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:06:23pm

re: #90 tradewind

O/T...
Obama at the WH Correspondents' dinner:
Painful.
Dubya was sooo much better...

TW .. narcissists cannot make fun of themselves ... imo if a person cannot laugh at themselves ... there is something seriously wrong ...

102 Thoughtful  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:06:53pm

Vaccines will continue to be blamed for any number of child developmental abnormalities because:

A) Vaccinations are administered to apparently healthy people. This is unlike most medicine, which are administered in response to known disease.

B) Vaccinations occur where a host of developmental activities are happening -- and the jury is out on how any of them will turn out.

C) Correlation is not the same thing as cause and effect. These are often confused in "science" reporting in the lay media.

D) Like any foreign protein, vaccines can and do cause any number of allergic reactions, which can range from discomfort to death. Combine that with point A (administered to fundamentally healthy people), and you have a liability nightmare for manufacturers and half-measures by public health officials. For example, the death rate due to influenza in older people is reduced the most by applying the influenza vaccine not to older people, but to a large percentage of school-age children. The community "herd immunity" curbs the spread of the disease better than the weak immune response in the elderly protects the individual.

Huffpo is simply fanning the flames of ignorance and fear.

103 Gus  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:07:06pm

re: #97 BlueCanuck

What? And totally ruin their tax base?

I know. Logic doesn't come in to play with some people.

104 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:07:07pm

re: #96 DistantThunder

VENTILATE!

But it's cold outside!

105 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:07:27pm

re: #63 neocon hippie

From the article:
Yet Shattuck’s study found reasons to doubt that these numbers were proof of an epidemic. Instead, he suggested that “diagnostic substitution”—in which children who previously would have been classified as mentally retarded or learning disabled were now being classified on the autism spectrum—played a significant role in the apparent increase.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

Better diagnostic tools. That's progress for you!

106 tradewind  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:07:52pm

re: #94 DistantThunder

He's giggling at himself... a laugh killer if there ever was one...
Comic timing is zero. They might have hated him, but they were howling at Dubya because he was truly witty at those functions.
Obama can't do self-deprecating, and his attempts at hip hop ebonics are...
Painful. The only adjective I can use.

107 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:08:08pm

re: #59 hazzyday

I don't know what prompted your comment that "Most parents of ASD kids love them." I hope I didn't say anything that gave you the impression that they don't.

In any case, people are always looking for an explanation for a disease that they have. I can imagine this need to know is even greater when you have a sick child.

People are often relieved when their unknown medical condition -- let's say, a pain in the head -- is given a name. Nothing else has changed. They just know what it is. And often the scientific name is just be Latin for "a pain in the head."

108 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:08:13pm

OT


The said he'd never walk again...

Wounded soldier finishes London Marathon

A soldier who was injured by a rocket attack in Iraq finished the London Marathon, two weeks after the race began.
Major Phil Packer was told he would never walk again after he lost the use of his legs during the attack in the southern Iraqi city of Basra in February 2008.
But the 36-year-old completed the course by walking two miles a day on crutches since the marathon started on April 26, and was greeted by hundreds of well-wishers who lined the final mile.
109 doppelganglander  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:08:29pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

OT:

The man who killed my friend Ben Teague has been found.

Dead.

Dug his own grave, lay down in it, and put a bullet through his brain.

No comment.

I've been following that story since I live in the area, but I had no idea you knew one of the victims. I'm sorry for your loss.

110 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:08:41pm

re: #106 tradewind

He's giggling at himself... a laugh killer if there ever was one...
Comic timing is zero. They might have hated him, but they were howling at Dubya because he was truly witty at those functions.
Obama can't do self-deprecating, and his attempts at hip hop ebonics are...
Painful. The only adjective I can use.

Sounds punch drunk...again...

111 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:09:39pm

re: #110 DistantThunder

Sounds punch drunk...again...

DT ... nah ... Mr. Love rolled him a fat one before the show ...

112 Idle Drifter  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:10:28pm

re: #87 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hey kid! Get me 'nother beer!

I heard that one during many a Hockey or Football game from Dad. Now it's "I'm getting a beer, anyone want one?"
Hell, I still get up out of my Dad's chair when he comes in to watch the game.

113 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:10:40pm

I can't wait until we hear the dirt from the White House staff. They loved the Bushs' - and despised the Clintons.

114 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:11:46pm

re: #106 tradewind

He's giggling at himself... a laugh killer if there ever was one...
Comic timing is zero. They might have hated him, but they were howling at Dubya because he was truly witty at those functions.
Obama can't do self-deprecating, and his attempts at hip hop ebonics are...
Painful. The only adjective I can use.

Dubya took all the slings and arrows aimed at him, using self-deprecation turned them all back on his attackers.

115 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:12:34pm

Is it too early in the thread to post a song? ... no, I didn't think so ...

Blind, Crippled or Crazy ...

116 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:12:47pm

re: #114 jcm

Dubya took all the slings and arrows aimed at him, using self-deprecation turned them all back on his attackers.

Learned that in the frat house. Why wasn't obama in a fraternity?

117 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:13:33pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

Learned that in the frat house. Why wasn't obama in a fraternity?

Can you see him during Pledge Week?!?!

118 tradewind  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:13:51pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

I heard they had found his car.
The only positive out of that horror is that the families and taxpayers are spared the expense and mental anguish of a trial.

119 Idle Drifter  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:13:54pm

re: #115 JacksonTn

See my:

#58 Idle Drifter

120 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:14:22pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

Learned that in the frat house. Why wasn't obama in a fraternity?

People would get to know him, and talk, can't have his past exposed.

121 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:14:48pm

re: #117 SteveC

Can you see him during Pledge Week?!?!

He would be a whiner. I think it was Dennis Prager that said at the core of democrat appeasement is personal cowardice.

122 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:16:18pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

Learned that in the frat house. Why wasn't obama in a fraternity?

He doesn't seem like the fraternity type to me. But do we actually know if he was in a fraternity or not? It seems like his college years are sort of a black hole, information-wise.

123 tradewind  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:16:40pm

re: #116 DistantThunder
Do we know that he wasn't?
Although I kinda doubt Oberlin , where he would have pledged, had a very strong Greek presence.

124 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:17:14pm

re: #122 Last Mohican

He doesn't seem like the fraternity type to me. But do we actually know if he was in a fraternity or not? It seems like his college years are sort of a black hole, information-wise.

LM ... racists ...

125 VioletTiger  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:17:23pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

Learned that in the frat house. Why wasn't obama in a fraternity?

I don't think he was very friendly/popular. I think I read during the election that they asked hundreds of former students if they knew him in Columbia, but they could not find anyone who remembered him.

126 brookly red  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:17:25pm

re: #120 jcm

People would get to know him, and talk, can't have his past exposed.

his past was aready exposed plenty, he got a pass.

127 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:17:27pm

re: #123 tradewind

Do we know that he wasn't?
Although I kinda doubt Oberlin , where he would have pledged, had a very strong Greek presence.

Oberlin? I thought he went to Occidental, and then Columbia.

128 DistantThunder  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:17:36pm

re: #123 tradewind

Do we know that he wasn't?
Although I kinda doubt Oberlin , where he would have pledged, had a very strong Greek presence.

He's too aloof. Not the type. i could be wrong.

129 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:18:06pm

re: #121 DistantThunder

He would be a whiner. I think it was Dennis Prager that said at the core of democrat appeasement is personal cowardice.

Reagan had personal courage, a successful lifeguard.
Bush I was a naval aviator.
Bush II strapped on a jet which had a nick name of "lawn dart."
Obama organized against The Man.

130 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:19:20pm

re: #116 DistantThunder

Why wasn't obama in a fraternity?

He was a stoner.

131 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:20:15pm

re: #129 jcm

Reagan had personal courage, a successful lifeguard.
Bush I was a naval aviator.
Bush II strapped on a jet which had a nick name of "lawn dart."
Obama organized against The Man.

"When your Grandson looks up and you and says "What did you do in the war?", thank your lucky stars that you don't have to say "Well, I shoveled shit in Mississippi!""

132 tradewind  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:20:40pm

re: #127 Last Mohican

You're right... PIMF. I knew it was one of those O schools, and I typed the wrong one.
Occidental, though, probably not a bastion of Greeks either.
At my large Southern university, the frats were fairly segregated, but there were African American fraternities on campus who seemed to prefer it that way, so racism wouldn't keep him from going Greek.

133 tradewind  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:21:21pm

re: #130 HelloDare

Laughing... as if the two were mutually exclusive...
:)

134 hazzyday  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:21:27pm

What is unfortunate from the article is that anti vaxxers are litigating. If any would, that would have a chilling effect on future vaccine research. No one wants to get litigated up front in their career. It's a show stopper.

The UK 2008 increase in measles in the article was assumed to be caused by the scare effect of the MMR Lancet article. I had thought it more likely do to immigration of a culture that doesn't do vaccinations.

Somewhere I read that the family most likely to not vaccinate in the US was a high income, Caucasian family.

135 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:21:31pm

re: #105 SteveC

Better diagnostic tools. That's progress for you!

Actually it is, but now we need better diagnosticians who don't think over-medicating is the answer to every little thing.

136 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:21:53pm

re: #132 tradewind

...so racism wouldn't keep him from going Greek.

Once you go Greek you can't be a Geek!

137 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:22:46pm

re: #132 tradewind

TW ... oh, he belonged while in college ... it is just that all evidence of his "belonging" to the black groups was scrubbed ... just go and try to find any evidence ... how many people do you know that went to college and left no trail ... none that I know ...

138 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:22:49pm

re: #130 HelloDare

He was a stoner.

There are certainly stoner fraternities. But I think there aren't too many angry Marxist stoner fraternities.

139 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:23:15pm

re: #129 jcm

Reagan had personal courage, a successful lifeguard.
Bush I was a naval aviator.
Bush II strapped on a jet which had a nick name of "lawn dart."
Obama organized against The Man.

At least the first 3 you mention once elected immediately buckled down and starting leading. O is still campaigning, for what I haven't a clue.

140 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:23:37pm

re: #129 jcm

Reagan had personal courage, a successful lifeguard.
Bush I was a naval aviator.
Bush II strapped on a jet which had a nick name of "lawn dart."
Obama organized against The Man.

Hey, Bill married Hillary. That shows personal courage (for both of them)

141 brookly red  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:24:19pm

re: #135 FurryOldGuyJeans

Actually it is, but now we need better diagnosticians who don't think over-medicating is the answer to every little thing.

/I can't be over medicated... I still have pills left :)

142 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:25:04pm

re: #138 Last Mohican

There are certainly stoner fraternities. But I think there aren't too many angry Marxist stoner fraternities.

Alpha Alpha Alinsky?

143 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:25:13pm

re: #139 FurryOldGuyJeans

At least the first 3 you mention once elected immediately buckled down and starting leading. O is still campaigning, for what I haven't a clue.

He's just building up his numbers for the inevitable backlash that's coming from his stupid policies. Kinda like when you build up speed at the base of a hill.

144 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:25:29pm

re: #134 hazzyday

What is unfortunate from the article is that anti vaxxers are litigating. If any would, that would have a chilling effect on future vaccine research. No one wants to get litigated up front in their career. It's a show stopper.

The UK 2008 increase in measles in the article was assumed to be caused by the scare effect of the MMR Lancet article. I had thought it more likely do to immigration of a culture that doesn't do vaccinations.

Somewhere I read that the family most likely to not vaccinate in the US was a high income, Caucasian family.

First it was the "asians" who refuse to use alcohol hand cleansers to prevent the spread of germs in hospitals, now the anti-vaxxers. What next? Faith surgery?

145 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:25:59pm

re: #135 FurryOldGuyJeans

Actually it is, but now we need better diagnosticians who don't think over-medicating is the answer to every little thing.

Oh, I was not being sarcastic at all. Clemson University has a bale of cotton picked and processed around 1915, perhaps a little earlier. They keep it in a sealed environment as a control sample, and every year they grade it to study durability. When the results change, it's not because the sample has changed, but the sampling equipment has gotten better.

146 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:26:14pm

Wanda Sykes is an idiot

147 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:26:30pm

re: #140 Desert Dog

Hey, Bill married Hillary. That shows personal courage (for both of them)

Michael Medved (talk show host) was a classmate of those two, and knew both of them. He says at the time it was real deal with those two.

148 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:26:43pm

re: #141 brookly red

/I can't be over medicated... I still have pills left :)

That almost sounds like my ex..."I must still have money, I have more checks".

149 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:27:06pm

re: #146 Shug

Wanda Sykes is an idiot

Shug ... please tell me she is not at that dinner ... I am not watching ...

150 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:27:56pm

re: #149 JacksonTn

Shug ... please tell me she is not at that dinner ... I am not watching ...


just happened to flip it on as she was saying she hoped Rush Limbaugh's kidneys failed.

aaah, the tolerant left

151 hazzyday  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:27:58pm

re: #107 HelloDare

I don't know what prompted your comment that "Most parents of ASD kids love them." I hope I didn't say anything that gave you the impression that they don't.

In any case, people are always looking for an explanation for a disease that they have. I can imagine this need to know is even greater when you have a sick child.

People are often relieved when their unknown medical condition -- let's say, a pain in the head -- is given a name. Nothing else has changed. They just know what it is. And often the scientific name is just be Latin for "a pain in the head."

I probably always start my ASD comments off that way. Not as a reply to your content but I think sometimes in castigating these people we lose track that their motivation is their kids. In Jennie McCarthy's case I think she needs to get together with Dr. Offitt and work over the issues. I agree with you that properly defining ASD will be a relief for all.

152 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:28:26pm

re: #145 SteveC

Oh, I was not being sarcastic at all. Clemson University has a bale of cotton picked and processed around 1915, perhaps a little earlier. They keep it in a sealed environment as a control sample, and every year they grade it to study durability. When the results change, it's not because the sample has changed, but the sampling equipment has gotten better.

Ok, the comment at face value could have been interpreted either way, so I read it as snark. My bad. :)

153 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:29:25pm

re: #18 Cato the Elder

OT:

The man who killed my friend Ben Teague has been found.

Dead.

Dug his own grave, lay down in it, and put a bullet through his brain.

No comment.

Condolences ... when stuff get close it feels especially weird.

154 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:29:32pm

re: #147 jcm

Michael Medved (talk show host) was a classmate of those two, and knew both of them. He says at the time it was real deal with those two.

It had to be real, otherwise they would have split years ago. The fact that they are still together tells me it is.

155 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:29:43pm

Obama: The College Years.

Kind of a bad title, by the way. These are pictures from a single photo shoot in 1980, when Obama was a freshman at Occidental. Even calling it a "photo shoot" may be a bit of a stretch -- a female undergrad saw him in a restaurant, thought he looked cute, and tried to pick him up by asking if she could take some photos of him.

156 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:29:47pm

re: #150 Shug

just happened to flip it on as she was saying she hoped Rush Limbaugh's kidneys failed.

aaah, the tolerant left

Yeah, we are, and if you don't believe us we will beat you up.

157 David Simon  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:30:14pm

Steyn at his bitter best:

When Western governments are as reluctant as King Abdullah to fly the Star of David, those among the citizenry who choose to do so have a hard time. In Britain in January, while “pro-Palestinian” demonstrators were permitted to dress up as hook-nosed Jews drinking the blood of Arab babies, the police ordered counter-protesters to put away their Israeli flags. In Alberta, in the heart of Calgary’s Jewish neighborhood, the flag of Hizballah (supposedly a proscribed terrorist organization) was proudly waved by demonstrators, but one solitary Israeli flag was deemed a threat to the Queen’s peace and officers told the brave fellow holding it to put it away or be arrested for “inciting public disorder.” In Germany, a student in Duisburg put the Star of David in the window of an upstairs apartment on the day of a march by the Islamist group Milli Görüs, only to have the cops smash his door down and remove the flag. He’s now trying to get the police to pay for a new door. Ah, those Jews. It’s always about money, isn’t it?


[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

158 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:30:50pm

re: #145 SteveC

Oh, I was not being sarcastic at all. Clemson University has a bale of cotton picked and processed around 1915, perhaps a little earlier. They keep it in a sealed environment as a control sample, and every year they grade it to study durability. When the results change, it's not because the sample has changed, but the sampling equipment has gotten better.

That's a big part of my job. Make sure all our electronic test and measurement equipment is accurate, precise and consistent. Then when we do change something, it doesn't change anything else.

159 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:30:53pm

re: #154 Desert Dog

It had to be real, otherwise they would have split years ago. The fact that they are still together tells me it is.

The two are mutual symbiotes, leeching off each other.

160 hazzyday  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:31:05pm

re: #144 FurryOldGuyJeans

LoL, I am ok if some sane adult wants to use "Faith surgery" If they die it's their own damn fault. I'm not ok for kids to have it enforced on them by their parents religion. That happened in Portland last year.

161 Rich H  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:31:35pm

Our litigious society encourages some to use the law to use anecdotal medical cases to convince the public to pay them money from our health care system. Science, medicine and Justice suffer, as does society.

That's not to say that we shouldn't support those who suffer from autism or those who genuinely suffer negative reactions to vaccines.

162 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:33:07pm

I can't stand the crazy ... so ...

Grits and Groceries ...

163 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:34:16pm

re: #162 JacksonTn

I can't stand the crazy ... so ...

Grits and Groceries ...


[Video]

I prefer grits and gravy, myself.

164 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:35:07pm

re: #155 Last Mohican

... and tried to pick him up by asking if she could take some photos of him.

"What did she tell you?"

"That I would find the One."

165 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:35:21pm

re: #150 Shug

just happened to flip it on as she was saying she hoped Rush Limbaugh's kidneys failed.

aaah, the tolerant left

Seriously? WTF? Is that supposed to be funny somehow?

I have no use for Rush's radio program, books, or anything else he does professionally, but I certainly don't wish diseases upon him. Or upon Ted Kennedy, or Barack Obama, or Pamela Geller, or anyone. Jeez.

166 nyc redneck  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:36:25pm

because a lot of these diseases have been mostly eradicated from the modern world, these people have the luxury to squawk and posture because their children
are not in immediate danger.
but once an epidemic hits, and it will, at some point, many children will suffer needlessly because of the stupidity of their mindless parents.
this is not a game. not an opportunity for celebrities to have a point of view they
can parley into some special attention for themselves.
it is a deadly serious situation and if they care abt. the lives of their children they
need to butt out of science and medicine w/ their ridiculous 'feelings' and "thoughts" on the subject.

167 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:37:44pm

re: #165 Last Mohican

LM ... tolerance ... ya know ... it's in the dems planks .. NOT ... they threw us out ... my family center right ... don't need you ... Donna Brazile said (on CNN tape) they did not need us ... they replaced us with the "urban" elites ... F*ck you Donna ... they lost our votes ... where is the party for us ...

168 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:38:32pm

re: #164 SteveC

I guess you have to target a certain kind of narcissist for this particular pickup line to work. I'm just imagining myself back in college, walking up to a girl in a restaurant, and saying "you're very pretty, would you like to come back to my apartment so I can take some picture of you?"

I just don't think that would have been very successful.

169 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:38:35pm

Is it still true that a child can't be enrolled in public school without proof of vaccinations? I even had to take a few boosters to register for classes at a Big Ten university.

/hopefully that's still a requirement

170 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:39:52pm

I think I'm going to barf.

This is a woman who has the courage to say "I am mom in chief" and make her children and her family -- unapologetically -- her No. 1 priority. She is able to do this because she is so intelligent and accomplished that she doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. She is healthy enough to be able to say, this is who I am, these are my values and my priorities.

She has come under attack for exposing her arms. They are toned and muscular, burnished and beautiful. That has to be threatening to some. For some men, often, a strong woman makes them feel diminished. For some feminists, the idea of an educated woman not taking on a full-time serious job is a frightening throwback.

171 VioletTiger  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:39:54pm

re: #169 Killian Bundy

Is it still true that a child can't be enrolled in public school without proof of vaccinations? I even had to take a few boosters to register for classes at a Big Ten university.

/hopefully that's still a requirement


It was true for my daughter, from grade school, through high school, and even college.

172 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:39:54pm

re: #168 Last Mohican

I'm just imagining myself back in college, walking up to a girl in a restaurant, and saying "you're very pretty, would you like to come back to my apartment so I can take some picture of you?"

... and at that moment Chris Hansen comes around the corner and tells you "Why don't you just have a seat over there?"

173 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:41:30pm

re: #157 David Simon

In Germany, a student in Duisburg put the Star of David in the window of an upstairs apartment on the day of a march by the Islamist group Milli Görüs, only to have the cops smash his door down and remove the flag. He’s now trying to get the police to pay for a new door.

I was just reading about that.

...The report, a copy of which was obtained by The Jerusalem Post, asserts that "the entry by force in two apartments" and "the securing of the flags was lawful."

During a protest against Israel's Operation Cast Lead organized by the radical Islamic group Milli Görüs that attracted 10,000 protesters in Duisburg, two police officers stormed the apartment of a 25-year-old student and his 26-year-old girlfriend and seized Israeli flags hanging on the balcony and inside a window.

According to Vahle's report, the protesters threw "chunks of ice, pocket knives and cigarette lighters" at the Israeli flags.

North Rhine-Westphalia's domestic intelligence agency (Protection of the Constitution) cited in its 2008 report the anti-Semitic and militant Islamic group Milli Görüs, the organizer of the anti-Israeli protest, as a threat to the democratic structure of the federal republic.

The student, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he fears for his safety, told the Post that two weeks after the removal of the flags "a couple of young folks" hollered in front of his apartment, "Damn Jew, come outside."

He displayed the Israeli flags in January to "show solidarity with a republic [Israel] in the Middle East that is surrounded by dictators but is viewed as a pariah state. I was in Israel and find the land super."

Asked about Vahle's report, the student said, "False questions were poised."

Disgusting.

174 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:42:00pm

re: #166 nyc redneck

because a lot of these diseases have been mostly eradicated from the modern world, these people have the luxury to squawk and posture because their children
are not in immediate danger.
but once an epidemic hits, and it will, at some point, many children will suffer needlessly because of the stupidity of their mindless parents.
this is not a game. not an opportunity for celebrities to have a point of view they
can parley into some special attention for themselves.
it is a deadly serious situation and if they care abt. the lives of their children they
need to butt out of science and medicine w/ their ridiculous 'feelings' and "thoughts" on the subject.

We are phenomenally protected from all kinds of ordinary mishaps of life. Just 100 years ago a chest cold was a life and death matter. We don't even thing about that anymore.

Any accident that broke the skin had the potential to kill. Now the survival rates for massive injuries is astounding.

We even protect people from true poverty and starvation.

We have no idea how brutal life was such a short time ago.

175 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:42:47pm

re: #170 HelloDare

I think I'm going to barf.

I think I'm going to join you.

The first lady's much-discussed preference for bare arms has proved to be a transformational cultural symbol.

176 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:42:52pm

Back to vaccines ... Farrach Fawcett is now dying from a cancer that can be prevented by a vaccine ... would you rather accept that fact that people do have sex ... or have your daughter die from cancer ... get a clue people ... science does save lives ...

177 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:44:38pm

re: #176 JacksonTn

Back to vaccines ... Farrach Fawcett is now dying from a cancer that can be prevented by a vaccine ... would you rather accept that fact that people do have sex ... or have your daughter die from cancer ... get a clue people ... science does save lives ...

I was under the assumption that she has anal cancer.

what vaccine prevents anal cancer?

178 David Simon  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:44:49pm

re: #170 HelloDare

I'm beyond stunned. That's what passes for intelligent conversation among the D.C. glitterati?

179 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:45:27pm

re: #176 JacksonTn

Back to vaccines ... Farrach Fawcett is now dying from a cancer that can be prevented by a vaccine ... would you rather accept that fact that people do have sex ... or have your daughter die from cancer ... get a clue people ... science does save lives ...

Nah, nah, nah, we need more like this:

British MPs expense X-rated movies, horse manure

180 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:45:50pm

re: #178 David Simon

I'm beyond stunned. That's what passes for intelligent conversation among the D.C. glitterati?

See, that proves you not cool enough to belong to the "in" crowd!

;-)

181 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:46:01pm

re: #172 SteveC

... and at that moment Chris Hansen comes around the corner and tells you "Why don't you just have a seat over there?"

Well that could certainly happen if I tried that method now... back in college I think I might have just ended up in a police station, or in "mandatory peer counseling," or maybe just lying on the floor holding my broken nose after someone's linebacker boyfriend showed up.

182 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:46:28pm

re: #176 JacksonTn

Farrach Fawcett is now dying from a cancer that can be prevented by a vaccine

/they have a vaccine for colorectal cancer?

183 SteveC  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:46:49pm

re: #174 jcm

We have no idea how brutal life was such a short time ago.

The first Congenital Heart Operation, the Blalock-Taussig Shunt, was first done on November 29, 1944. Someone born on that day has not even retired yet.

184 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:46:53pm

re: #177 Shug

I was under the assumption that she has anal cancer.

what vaccine prevents anal cancer?

Shug ... anal cancer is caused by the same cancer that causes cervical cancer HPV ... the majority of the strains that cause HPV can be prevented by the most recent vaccine ... but many people do not want to get their daughters the shot because they have whatever reasons they have ... no reason is imo the reason to be at your daughters funeral for a disease that can be prevented ...

185 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:46:56pm

re: #178 David Simon

I'm beyond stunned. That's what passes for intelligent conversation among the D.C. glitterati?

Kind of makes The Onion obsolete.

186 Gitarzan  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:47:00pm

re: #170 HelloDare

I think I'm going to barf.

That article is suck a steaming pile of fellatiating horeshit...

187 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:47:28pm

re: #182 Killian Bundy

/they have a vaccine for colorectal cancer?

KB... anal cancer and colorectal cancer are not the same thing ...

188 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:47:45pm

re: #182 Killian Bundy

/they have a vaccine for colorectal cancer?

Thats what got my mom. It returned in the bones of the spine.

189 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:48:22pm

re: #158 jcm

That's a big part of my job. Make sure all our electronic test and measurement equipment is accurate, precise and consistent. Then when we do change something, it doesn't change anything else.

Ah - the calibration guys ... thank you for your service - how would we ever get along without you? (I'm reminiscing to old Navy days)

190 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:48:50pm

So is someone going to post a transcript of videos from the correspondents' dinner, so that I know what went on, without actually having to watch it? I've seen the footage of teenage girls screaming uncontrollably at the Beatles shows of the early 1960's, so I don't actually feel the need to watch this one in real time.

191 Gitarzan  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:49:03pm

re: #186 talon_262

Oops, PIMF...

Meant "That article is such a steaming pile of fellatiating horseshit..."

192 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:49:14pm

I love this version of this song ... Wonderwall ...

193 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:49:19pm

re: #189 Bobibutu

Ah - the calibration guys ... thank you for your service - how would we ever get along without you? (I'm reminiscing to old Navy days)

Without test equipment to break, DUH! ;)

194 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:49:53pm

re: #191 talon_262

Oops, PIMF...

Meant "That article is such a steaming pile of fellatiating horseshit..."

Your first version worked better. ;)

195 koyaanistaaqa  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:50:01pm

re: #179 FurryOldGuyJeans

Nah, nah, nah, we need more like this:

British MPs expense X-rated movies, horse manure

I'd definitely like to see more stories like this:


SUSAN Boyle turned down the chance of a dream dinner date with President Barack Obama in Washington . . . to stay at home and wash her hair, we can reveal.


[Link: www.newsoftheworld.co.uk...]

Good for her!

196 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:50:20pm

re: #189 Bobibutu

Ah - the calibration guys ... thank you for your service - how would we ever get along without you? (I'm reminiscing to old Navy days)

Went through hell a few weeks ago.

New product to be tested.
New tester, new hardware, new engineer, and new code.

What could possibly go wrong? And when it did go wrong, which new thing was he cause? AHHH!

197 bosforus  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:50:54pm

re: #185 HelloDare

Kind of makes The Onion obsolete.

No way, not in a million years. We'll always need the onion!

198 LGoPs  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:51:33pm

re: #190 Last Mohican

So is someone going to post a transcript of videos from the correspondents' dinner, so that I know what went on, without actually having to watch it? I've seen the footage of teenage girls screaming uncontrollably at the Beatles shows of the early 1960's, so I don't actually feel the need to watch this one in real time.

I want to know if any correspondent's fainted from giddiness at being in the Obama's presence...

199 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:51:36pm

re: #182 Killian Bundy

/they have a vaccine for colorectal cancer?

She has anal cancer. It's a whole different thing. It's usually squamous cell carcinoma, as opposed to colorectal cancer, which is usually adenocarcinoma. The great majority of anal cancers seem to be related to HPV. I'm not sure if they're the same strains of HPV that are prevented by Gardasil.

200 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:52:57pm

re: #191 talon_262

Oops, PIMF...

Meant "That article is such a steaming pile of fellatiating horseshit..."

I put it in the SPINOFFS but for some reason didn't put it in the Media Bias category.

201 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:53:49pm

re: #196 jcm

Went through hell a few weeks ago.

New product to be tested.
New tester, new hardware, new engineer, and new code.

What could possibly go wrong? And when it did go wrong, which new thing was he cause? AHHH!

I am reminded of a few Chiefs pounding into my brain ... when you change things ... do them one at a time ... Hellooo

202 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:54:26pm

re: #199 Last Mohican

She has anal cancer. It's a whole different thing. It's usually squamous cell carcinoma, as opposed to colorectal cancer, which is usually adenocarcinoma. The great majority of anal cancers seem to be related to HPV. I'm not sure if they're the same strains of HPV that are prevented by Gardasil.

LM ... they are the majority of strains that can be prevented are the ones which the vaccine Gardasil is targeted for ... some people are just not wanting to get their daughters the shot because of hell who knows why not ... they will get the vaccines for chickenpox and not for something that could possible kill them ... I cannot believe it ... why do people have such problems with sex related things ...

203 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:54:26pm

re: #170 HelloDare
Barfing right along with you.

204 David Simon  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:54:49pm

re: #188 jcm

Thats what got my mom. It returned in the bones of the spine.

Horrible. I'm so sorry.

205 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:57:03pm

re: #201 Bobibutu

I am reminded of a few Chiefs pounding into my brain ... when you change things ... do them one at a time ... Hellooo

I begged them to make a test chip out of an existing product line to be able to do a full up test run... but no...

Glad I'm not the one who has to explain the delays.

206 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:58:45pm

re: #199 Last Mohican

She has anal cancer. It's a whole different thing. It's usually squamous cell carcinoma, as opposed to colorectal cancer, which is usually adenocarcinoma. The great majority of anal cancers seem to be related to HPV. I'm not sure if they're the same strains of HPV that are prevented by Gardasil.

*eyes glaze over*

Maybe I should talking about the proper placement of parentheses in C++ code, what the proper indentation is, and polymorphism of inherited classes. ;)

207 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 7:59:51pm

re: #204 David Simon

Horrible. I'm so sorry.

Thank you,

There was bright spot, it wasn't long and drawn out. She did very well for a couple of years, and the decline to the end was a matter of a few weeks.

We're thankful for that. It's been almost 8 years, and I still miss her.

208 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:01:35pm

re: #201 Bobibutu

I am reminded of a few Chiefs pounding into my brain ... when you change things ... do them one at a time ... Hellooo

The Chiefs I worked for usually were riding my ass to get something done NOW! Forget taking 30 seconds extra to make sure it worked or not, just get it out the door! Had to have the best turn-around stats for the shift. Returns were someone else's problem.

209 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:01:41pm

re: #205 jcm

I begged them to make a test chip out of an existing product line to be able to do a full up test run... but no...

Glad I'm not the one who has to explain the delays.

Amazing that - for profit - entities still do not get it. But - we seem to muddle thru somehow. Isn't this stuff taught in MBA 101? Oh wait - that's not the tech side of reality.

210 Koyaanistaaqa  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:04:11pm

re: #203 Cathypop

I just threw up in my mouth a little. Inspired my first attempt at some lyrics adjustment, though a bit out of season. With apologies to Adolphe Adam:

O holy crap! The stomachs are rightly churning.
It is the night of Our dear Leader's wife.
Long lay the world In sin and error burning.
'Til She appear'd And the soul felt its worth.
A thrill of hope The weary leg rejoices,
For yonder shines A new and glorious arm

Fall on your knees! O, hear the Obamas' voices!
O night divine, O night when Barack was born;
O night divine, O night, O night Divine

211 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:05:05pm

re: #208 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Chiefs I worked for usually were riding my ass to get something done NOW! Forget taking 30 seconds extra to make sure it worked or not, just get it out the door! Had to have the best turn-around stats for the shift. Returns were someone else's problem.

If this attitude carries over to vaccines - one might wonder if the nut cakes have a valid concern?

(flame proof underwear on)

212 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:05:17pm

re: #206 FurryOldGuyJeans

Keep that up and I will dig out my Object Oriented SDLC text books and start quoting from them. :p

213 David Simon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:05:50pm

re: #207 jcm

Thank you,

There was bright spot, it wasn't long and drawn out. She did very well for a couple of years, and the decline to the end was a matter of a few weeks.

We're thankful for that. It's been almost 8 years, and I still miss her.

Yes, and you always will miss her.

I'm glad to hear that she didn't suffer too much. I know how cruel that disease can be.

214 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:06:03pm

The nonsense with Michelle Obama's arms reminds me of the nonsense with Sai Baba's feet:
Dedicated at the Lotus Feet of Bhagavan Sri Sri Sri Sathya Sai Baba Varu

215 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:06:07pm

re: #200 HelloDare

I put it in the SPINOFFS but for some reason didn't put it in the Media Bias category.

Found it. Updinged it.

I hoped people don't ding it back down just because it's so incredibly repulsive. They do that sometimes, you know.

216 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:07:16pm

re: #212 BlueCanuck

Keep that up and I will dig out my Object Oriented SDLC text books and start quoting from them. :p

We could always argue frameworks. Those generate some good religious tech wars.

217 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:09:12pm

re: #215 Last Mohican

Found it. Updinged it.

I hoped people don't ding it back down just because it's so incredibly repulsive. They do that sometimes, you know.

They do that all the time to my posts. Don't understand it. Down dinging it means you don't want other people to see it. If people want to make a comment, they can. Charles gave them a place to do it.

218 EricWRN  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:10:15pm

re: #24 jcm

People are profoundly uncomfortable with "I don't know." When it's a distance "I don't know" putting "here be dragons" on a map sufficed. When your own child is affect "I don't know" doesn't cut it.

They seek any answer, especially one that has a protagonist to blame. It much easier to view a world where things all have a cause, and are not happenstance or the statistical probabilities.

When things have a cause, the rage and grief has an outlet, it gives them them something controllable in an uncontrolled situation.

And boy do we see analogues to this in every aspect of life (see: religion, politics, etc...).

219 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:10:35pm

Lizard News: Gecko vision could lead to better cameras

The way nocturnal geckos perceive color could lead to better cameras and contact lenses, researchers in Sweden said.

The geckos are among the very few creatures able to see color at night, said Lina Roth, a researcher at the Lund University.

The key to the exceptional vision is a series of distinct concentric zones of varying refractive powers, Roth and her team said in a study published Friday by the Association for Research in Vision and Ophthalmology.

220 rain of lead  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:10:55pm

re: #202 JacksonTn

Hey JT!
how's your weekend going? biz good or did weather slow it down?

221 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:11:11pm

re: #218 EricWRN

And boy do we see analogues to this in every aspect of life (see: religion, politics, etc...).

Gee, I don't know.

222 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:11:56pm
223 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:12:36pm

re: #215 Last Mohican

Found it. Updinged it.

I hoped people don't ding it back down just because it's so incredibly repulsive. They do that sometimes, you know.

It happened already

Minus: 1
rob.schmitt

224 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:12:48pm

re: #220 rain of lead

Hey JT!
how's your weekend going? biz good or did weather slow it down?

RoL ... could you please stop the rain? ... yes it is hurting my business on both fronts ... dang ... crops are getting too much rain and people do not come out when it is raining ... but ... really ... things are so good ... in comparison to some ... I am really grateful ...

225 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:13:42pm

re: #222 Desert Dog

Gekko Vision!

Oh wow! He's using The Brick©.

226 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:13:48pm

re: #224 JacksonTn

I'm in central Texas and would more than happy to take your rain. Please?

227 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:14:15pm

re: #218 EricWRN

And boy do we see analogues to this in every aspect of life (see: religion, politics, etc...).

I would say that is one of the most valuable lessons I learned in all the science classes I took.

To be comfortable with "I don't know." I would say at least half my classmates in those classes didn't learn that.

228 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:14:23pm

re: #226 Cathypop

I'm in central Texas and would more than happy to take your rain. Please?

CP ... gladly give it to you ... we are drowning ...

229 rain of lead  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:15:19pm

re: #224 JacksonTn

Hey! I did for a little while bout 5:00 just long enough to grill some monster burgers for dinner :)

/go meat

230 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:15:22pm

re: #217 HelloDare

They do that all the time to my posts. Don't understand it. Down dinging it means you don't want other people to see it. If people want to make a comment, they can. Charles gave them a place to do it.

It happens all the time -- someone posts an article on, say, how inspirational and monumentally important Michelle Obama's arms are, and then someone else reads it, disagrees with the article, and down-dings it. As though the poster's intention was to assert that Michelle Obama's arms really are inspirational, as opposed to the exact opposite.

The only thing that seems to help is to change the title to something that communicates your intent. Something like "Dumbass MSM sycophant extends her absurd Obama crush to Michelle."

231 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:16:02pm

re: #223 HelloDare

It happened already

Minus: 1
rob.schmitt

Rob, unding! Unding!

232 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:16:15pm

re: #228 JacksonTn
Three weeks of good down pour would be wonderful!

233 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:16:25pm

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Lizard News: Gecko vision could lead to better cameras

Lizards Rule!

234 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:16:36pm

Uh-oh...
Anti-jihad group helps fill U.S. ammo shortage

America's Truth Forum announced it is making available through its website .223 Remington (5.56) rounds suitable for all sport More..ing and military-style rifles, including the AR-15 and Ruger Mini-14.

"Like gold and silver, ammunition is coming into vogue as an affordable security investment – a multi-purpose asset that not only protects homes from violent attacks and citizens from tyrannical oppression but a tangible one that could be bartered as collateral during the most troubling economic times," says the president of America's Truth Forum, Jeff Epstein.

Purchasers of the ammunition will have an opportunity to donate to America's Truth Forum, Epstein said, and help "awaken our citizenry to the radical Islamic-Jihadist threat."

"If we fail to take the appropriate actions now, our children will be left to carry on the battle against an even stronger and more determined foe, an evil whose flame we failed to extinguish," he said. "Our legacy should be one of bravely confronting our adversaries and of diligently defending what is rightfully ours. Our actions need to serve as motivating examples for future generations, instilling in them the proclivity to stand resolute in the face of evil."


Yes, the story checks out.

235 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:16:54pm

re: #222 Desert Dog

Greed is good!

236 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:17:33pm

re: #225 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh wow! He's using The Brick©.

Every Analog came with a FREE brain tumor! Get yours, today!

237 rain of lead  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:17:54pm

re: #232 Cathypop

I'm in jt's neck of the woods and we have had about 10 straight days of rain.

/getting old

238 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:18:18pm

re: #232 Cathypop

Three weeks of good down pour would be wonderful!

CP ... I don't grow vegetables ... but my friends that do ... they are not sure their crops are going to make it ... they should be harvesting the squash soon ... and they have had too much rain ... it makes the vegetables kinda rot in the water ... farmers live and die by the weather ... summer squash is my friends major crop and he is worried ... so pray ... well, if you pray ... and you can have all our rain you want ...

239 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:18:44pm

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

240 rain of lead  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:19:29pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

BOHICA

241 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:19:41pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

He's just going to tell the fine folks that the government will start taking VISA and MasterCard for their taxes.

242 Sharmuta  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:20:03pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

America's Truth Forum

243 solomonpanting  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:20:35pm
Within weeks of this year’s federal court decisions—which examined and vindicated both the MMR vaccine and thimerosal—environmental lawyer Robert F. Kennedy Jr. wrote a column in The Huffington Post in which he continued to press his case that the government has peddled unsafe vaccines to an unsuspecting public. It is a cause he has championed since 2005, when he published “Deadly Immunity” in Rolling Stone and Salon magazines. The article was a no-holds-barred denunciation of the U.S. public-health establishment, purporting to tell the story of how “government health agencies colluded with Big Pharma to hide the risks of thimerosal from the public…a chilling case study of institutional arrogance, power, and greed.”

So here we have a non-scientist pontificating à la that other non-scientist, Al Gore, on matters that could/will have dramatic impacts upon society with the prospect of truly negative consequences.

244 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:21:09pm

re: #241 Desert Dog

He's just going to tell the fine folks that the government will start taking own VISA and MasterCard for their taxes.

FIFY

245 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:21:19pm

re: #238 JacksonTn

Grew up on a farm and understand what the farmers are going through. They need all the help they can get. Will pray for them but still want a hellasious (sp?) down pour.

246 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:21:41pm
Uh-oh...
Anti-jihad group helps fill U.S. ammo shortage

Yes, the story checks out.

/yeah, it's a WND story all right

247 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:21:44pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout
Jeffrey Epstein

Jeffrey Epstein (born January 20, 1953 in Coney Island, New York) is an American financier, billionare, philanthropist and convicted sex offender.


Yikes.

248 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:21:58pm

re: #244 NJDhockeyfan

FIFY

Will they merge with FIAT as well? Or, will they get rolled into the BofO?

249 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:22:37pm

re: #246 Killian Bundy

You can check the America's Truth Forum webpage if you want.

250 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:22:56pm

re: #219 Killgore Trout

Lizard News: Gecko vision could lead to better cameras

When I first got to Asia and experienced these critters I knew they had to be special - may wonders never cease!

251 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:23:03pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

Jeffrey Epstein


Yikes.

sounded fine until you get to that sex offender part...eeehhh

252 Koyaanistaaqa  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:23:08pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

Somehow I don't think he'll kick it off with a discussion about how prepaid credit cards can be used to make untraceable donations to political campaigns.

Obama Accepting Untraceable Donations

253 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:23:19pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

Henrietta Hughes...paging Henrietta Hughes

254 Sharmuta  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:23:24pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

Interesting- I found a link to jihad watch. Imagine that.

255 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:23:28pm

Frogs flown from Montserrat to flee deadly fungus


SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) - Scientists are airlifting dozens of one of the world's largest frogs off of Montserrat island to save them from a deadly fungus devastating their dwindling habitat.

The dense forest of this tiny British Caribbean territory is the last remaining stronghold of the critically endangered mountain chicken frog, a 2-pound (0.9 kg), frying pan-size amphibian that got its name because locals say its meat tastes like - you guessed it - chicken.

256 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:24:30pm

re: #250 Bobibutu

When I first got to Asia and experienced these critters I knew they had to be special - may wonders never cease!

Lots of geckos here in AZ. They are cool lizards. It's really neat when the eggs hack. They are little mini-geckos. Alas, many of them become play toys for the cats.

257 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:24:59pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

You can check the America's Truth Forum webpage if you want.

Georgia Arms

/not an ammunition manufacturer

258 Shug  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:25:20pm

re: #255 NJDhockeyfan

Frogs flown from Montserrat to flee deadly fungus


I've been to Montserrat ( pre volcano )
I've eaten the mountain chicken.
I didn't like it.

the islanders were some of the nicest people on earth. I feel bad for them

259 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:25:38pm

re: #230 Last Mohican

Damn, the story would be at the top of the Spinoff Links with that title.

260 Sharmuta  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:25:53pm

On search page two, it's pamela.

261 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:26:38pm

re: #254 Sharmuta

This is the exact thing that will attract the attention of DHS. Stockpiling weapons and ammunition to resist eliminate the imminent threat of jihad is going to attract attention.

262 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:26:58pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

Dang I better get a bunch, charge a fortune so I can get bailed out.

I'm such a putz, all this time I thought 0 credit card debt was a good thing.

263 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:27:30pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

I guess he's trying to drum up support for this. Seems like a good idea to me, at least the way this FASLIP person is describing it.

264 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:27:32pm

re: #256 Desert Dog

Lots of geckos here in AZ. They are cool lizards. It's really neat when the eggs hack. They are little mini-geckos. Alas, many of them become play toys for the cats.


My cat learned the hard way not to eat them. She survived but only plays with them now.

265 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:28:05pm

re: #255 NJDhockeyfan

Frogs flown from Montserrat to flee deadly fungus

That can backfire. Ever hear of Cane Toads? They are the bane of Australia. Brought in to eat insects plaguing the sugar cane and ended up spreading like crazy all over the place.

Cane Toads in Australia

266 David Simon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:28:28pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

From your link:

U.S. President Barack Obama will hold a town hall meeting next week in New Mexico to promote congressional efforts to reform credit card practices, the White House said on Friday.

Here are the practices I'm used to, and they sure as hell don't need reform: My American Express card pays ME 5% on gas and grocery store purchases; my Chase Visa pays ME 3% every time I charge my restaurant meals; and my Fidelity Visa pays ME 1 1/2% on everything else as long as I convert the "rewards" to savings in my Fidelity account.

/I never pay them a dime because I'm not stupid enough to run credit card balances at 12, 15, 20 or whatever usurious rate it is they charge schmucks who DO run credit card balances. Flame away crypto-lefties.

267 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:30:08pm

re: #262 jcm

Dang I better get a bunch, charge a fortune so I can get bailed out.

I'm such a putz, all this time I thought 0 credit card debt was a good thing.

jcm ... silly boy ... if you are not in debt to the credit card companies do you really matter? ... I mean ... if you are a cash paying kind of person or you pay your credit cards in full every month ... do they really need you? ...

268 EricWRN  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:30:59pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

Wow...that is a 66 fold increase.
Something very bad is happening to our children and noone seems to know why. No wonder parents are vulnerable to superstition and manipulation.
But what is the medical and political establishments' excuse...those bastards.
How about if they get down to business and with government funding undertake the necessary research and studies to find the real cause of this scourge, instead of wasting time and rainsing false hopes?

I looked but can't find the stats although I'm sure they're out there. Autism is misdiagnosed A LOT. If someone says they've "cured" their child of autism, chances are that they never had it in the first place. My unprofessional opinion is that diseases like this and ADHD, asperger's, etc... is that it's just a popular diagnosis and that's the reason we see more cases as time goes on. This is just how many similar disorders there are to autism. After all, nobody was diagnosed with schizophrenia before they knew what it was (or anything else for that matter).

269 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:31:23pm

re: #256 Desert Dog

Lots of geckos here in AZ. They are cool lizards. It's really neat when the eggs hack. They are little mini-geckos. Alas, many of them become play toys for the cats.

The things we learn on LGF - I had no idea they were in the US.

Western ladies would freak out when one would fall from from the ceiling in a bathroom into m'ladies bath in our neighborhood in Saigon - the screams could be heard for some distance on a quite night.

270 The Other Les  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:32:03pm

New on my Flickr Page:

Our Motto Is ... Apotheosis Now!

271 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:32:22pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

You can check the America's Truth Forum webpage if you want.

/and it's still a WND story

272 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:32:36pm

re: #267 JacksonTn

jcm ... silly boy ... if you are not in debt to the credit card companies do you really matter? ... I mean ... if you are a cash paying kind of person or you pay your credit cards in full every month ... do they really need you? ...


Three months ago my Texaco gas card limit went from $1100.00 to 150.00. Paid it in full every month. No they do not like me.

273 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:32:37pm

re: #265 Desert Dog

That can backfire. Ever hear of Cane Toads? They are the bane of Australia. Brought in to eat insects plaguing the sugar cane and ended up spreading like crazy all over the place.

Cane Toads in Australia

But can you pan fry cane toads?

274 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:34:15pm

Obama laughs at Rush "Oxycontin" jab

Wanda Sykes isn't killing but she's getting some laughs -- and Obama was yukking it up until Sykes muttered the word "abstinence" and "Palin" in the same joke.

He was back laughing when Sykes slammed Rush -- and hard -- for the hoping-Obama-will fail stuff.

CSPAN was trained on the president when Sykes joked that Limbaugh was the "I think Rush Limbaugh was the 20th [Sept. 11th] hijacker, but he was so strung out on Oxycontin he missed his flight."

Obama was chuckling -- while saying something to his dais mates -- and couldn't quite stop smiling even as he sipped some water.

She finished her Rush bit with: "l hope this country fails?" I hope his kidney fails!"

He chuckled at that one too.

Classy/

275 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:34:31pm

re: #273 NJDhockeyfan

But can you pan fry cane toads?

Breaded and deep fried. Then served with tarter sauce. MMM

276 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:34:46pm

re: #262 jcm

Dang I better get a bunch, charge a fortune so I can get bailed out.

I'm such a putz, all this time I thought 0 credit card debt was a good thing.

Let us remember that the present VP pushed thru the laws for upping usury CC interest rate structures in his state.

277 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:35:01pm

Since we are not going to have Saturday night Krewe of Reptilia music thread ... I will just keep posting ... I love her ... saw her once at the Warehouse in New Orleans ... great ...

278 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:35:04pm

re: #269 Bobibutu

The things we learn on LGF - I had no idea they were in the US.

Western ladies would freak out when one would fall from from the ceiling in a bathroom into m'ladies bath in our neighborhood in Saigon - the screams could be heard for some distance on a quite night.

Lizards of AZ

I like the geckos, but the collard lizards are really cool looking. I have never seen a gila monster in the wild, only at the zoo. And, I have not seen many rattlers here. I grew up in the Denver area and I saw way more snakes than here.

279 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:35:46pm

re: #251 Desert Dog

sounded fine until you get to that sex offender part...eeehhh

I think there may be two different Jeffrey Epsteins:

Billionaire guy who likes young girls
Former PR person from Vietnam Veterans for the Truth

Are they the same guy?

280 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:36:02pm

re: #273 NJDhockeyfan

If you remove the POISONOUS GLANDS, perhaps. Probably taste like chicken.

281 Sharmuta  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:36:09pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

Notice how their logo is reminiscent of a odin's cross?

282 Cathypop  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:36:20pm

re: #274 NJDhockeyfan

I used to think Wanda was funny but not any more. What a hateful biatch!

283 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:36:54pm

re: #279 Last Mohican

I think there may be two different Jeffrey Epsteins:

Billionaire guy who likes young girls
Former PR person from Vietnam Veterans for the Truth

Are they the same guy?

sounds like two different guys

284 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:37:55pm

re: #267 JacksonTn

jcm ... silly boy ... if you are not in debt to the credit card companies do you really matter? ... I mean ... if you are a cash paying kind of person or you pay your credit cards in full every month ... do they really need you? ...

My wife has a few store cards, so she can take advantage of deals offered to card holders. We have a credit card, rarely used, paid in full every month. Mainly for emergencies if we need more money than we have on hand.

The only debt is our mortgage and even with the drop in housing we're above water.

And I have to pay for bail outs engineered by a guy who's never managed even a 7-11 paid to people who can't manage their own budgets.

*spit*

285 HelloDare  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:38:35pm

re: #170 HelloDare

This is a woman who has the courage to say "I am mom in chief" and make her children and her family -- unapologetically -- her No. 1 priority. She is able to do this because she is so intelligent and accomplished that she doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. She is healthy enough to be able to say, this is who I am, these are my values and my priorities.

She has come under attack for exposing her arms. They are toned and muscular, burnished and beautiful. That has to be threatening to some. For some men, often, a strong woman makes them feel diminished. For some feminists, the idea of an educated woman not taking on a full-time serious job is a frightening throwback.

Here is part of the bio on Sally Quinn the author of that barf inducing story on Michelle Obama.

Quinn is married to Benjamin C. Bradlee, the former editor of the Washington Post, her former boss. Quinn and Bradlee have one child, [Josiah] Quinn Crowninshield Bradlee who was born in 1982 when she was 41.

...In June 2008, the Catholic League issued a press release highly critical of Quinn for taking communion at the funeral mass for journalist Tim Russert.[8] In an On Faith blog posting on the Washington Post website, Quinn—who is not a Catholic—wrote that she was "determined to take [communion] for Tim, transubstantiation notwithstanding" and that she "had a slightly nauseated sensation" after taking it.[9] Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded that "Quinn's statement not only reeks of narcissism, it shows a profound disrespect for Catholics and the beliefs they hold dear." Since the incident, Quinn's judgment as moderator of On Faith has come under question by media commentators[10][11] including columnist Ramesh Ponnuru, who wrote that "if [Quinn] does not understand the affront she gave then perhaps regularly blogging about religion for a major news outlet is not the right job for her."

286 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:39:00pm

re: #278 Desert Dog

Lizards of AZ

I like the geckos, but the collard lizards are really cool looking. I have never seen a gila monster in the wild, only at the zoo. And, I have not seen many rattlers here. I grew up in the Denver area and I saw way more snakes than here.

OK - I guess when we get around to the Universal Lizard Meet - it is only proper that it be in AZ.

287 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:41:33pm

What's in a name.

I guess Jack Meoff or Ben Dover was taken?

288 Last Mohican  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:42:14pm

re: #283 Desert Dog

sounds like two different guys

Woops... unless the Virgin Islands Daily News made the same mistake, they are actually the same person:

ST. THOMAS - Police in Palm Beach, Fla., say that a lengthy investigation of Jeffrey Epstein, billionaire owner of one of the Virgin Islands' largest estates, produced probable cause that he paid underage girls for sex acts at his Palm Beach mansion; prosecutors, however, have not found cause to charge him with those crimes.

...

Epstein also is a principal in Vietnam Vets for the Truth. The political group, established May 24, 2004, is the product of a loophole in Section 527 of the Internal Revenue Code concerning political action organizations. Politicians can use a Section 527 group to raise unlimited amounts of money from individuals, corporations and unions, according to the Source Watch website, a project for the Center for Media and Democracy.

289 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:42:25pm

re: #279 Last Mohican

Yup same guy.

290 Desert Dog  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:42:31pm

re: #286 Bobibutu

OK - I guess when we get around to the Universal Lizard Meet - it is only proper that it be in AZ.

Make sure it's between Oct and April. Otherwise, most lizards would not appreciate the heat.

291 opilio  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:45:06pm

re: #290 Desert Dog

Make sure it's between Oct and April. Otherwise, most lizards would not appreciate the heat.

Flagstaff's not too bad in July.

292 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:45:39pm

Wow, racist website and cracker ammunition dealer get together for a sales promotion, quelle surprise, picked up by WND.

/you'll notice the ammunition "manufacturer" isn't listed, unless they're pushing reloads, they're subject to the same shortage as everyone else

293 Dark_Falcon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:46:17pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

Obama should hold his next "Town Hall" in Minute Maid Park, home of the Astros. It would be fitting, given how his meeting are nothing but astroturfing.

294 JacksonTn  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:46:42pm

re: #284 jcm

jcm ... I hear ya ... I am doing a bunch of soul searching ... do I continue to employ many people and pay so many taxes or scale back and just bury money in the lower 40 ... I want to continue employing people but we will only take so much ... I love America ... my family is the American Dream ... but we will not get on the socialist train ... never ... we would rather keep our land and farm what we need to for our family if it comes to that ... of course with our arms ... does that seem bad ... who cares ... we will do what we have to do ... say what you want about us southern racists and we are not ... cuz you know that is what they call us anyways ... we live hard ... work hard ... give fair play to anyone who wants to work ... but dang we have a limit and we know what that is ...

I have faith ... I know all thing will pass ...

295 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:47:07pm

I met a guy who had a cancerous growth on his neck. It was a type that was easily curable. He had three different doctors offer to take care of it for free. To allow a doctor to do surgery was thwarting divine will according to his religious beliefs. He died in horrible pain.

Stupid ideas that get repeated enough cause some people to believe they are true even when evidence shows the oft-repeated rumor to be a lie. Personally, even if vaccinations did lead some people to be autistic, I think the benefit is greater than the harm. I have a very close relative that is autistic—she's an adult, but can barely function at a 4 or 5 year old level. She was diagnosed as autistic before she got any vaccinations.

Often times when I get some little scratch that gets infected, I first think that it is nothing worth bothering with. Then I remember that a hundred years ago little infections used to kill people—I then clean, disinfect and bandage it.

296 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:47:14pm

Awww jeez...O wants to be alone in Normandy...

Obama Doesn’t Want The Commonfolk Around During D-Day Anniversary

Obama will be visiting the beaches of Normandy for the 65th anniversary, which is good. Problem is he wants none of the common folk to be able to visit on that day:

…as of now Obama’s State Department has asked (read demanded) the French government not allow tour guide services to operate that day. It is a big day for Normandy tourism. Yet, the king will not allow those not connected with government to enjoy the day. Obama is very important you know. This is an unprecedented request. I hope the French come to their senses and deny it.

Compare that with 2004. Security was tight as President Bush and other world leaders were in attendance, but the event was still open to all. A friend relayed the story of waiting in line to use a port-a-potty (a French port-a-potty no doubt, yuck, believe me.) She looks to her left and who he is in the next line waiting patiently? President Bush. Sure he had Secret Service nearby, but he waited like everyone else.

Contrast that with Team Obama not even allowing regular people near Colleville-Sur-Mer that day. A shame indeed. Especially as the last of our WW II vets are expiring.

Oh, and that isn’t it. He apparently will make a gesture to acknowledge how Germany suffered during WWII. It was hard work sending those Jews to the bath house you see.

297 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:49:48pm

re: #290 Desert Dog

Make sure it's between Oct and April. Otherwise, most lizards would not appreciate the heat.

I'm going to host another get-to-gather here in Nor Cal this summer - an uncle (by marriage) would do winters at a motel in Yuma every year - I continually bow to his wisdom.

298 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:50:22pm

Well, relief is here. Time to head home and polish off what's left of my bottle of rum. See you folks in about an hour.

299 Bob Dillon  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:51:04pm

re: #291 opilio

Flagstaff's not too bad in July.

You have some serious elevation there and yes, a great place.

300 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:52:03pm

.223 REM

/yep, reloads

301 Killian Bundy  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:57:57pm

re: #300 Killian Bundy

.223 REM

/yep, reloads

Okay, let's not quibble about wether it's "manufactured" as opposed to reloaded. You'll notice that almost their entire stock is:

Out of stock due to component shortage!

/yawn

302 jcm  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:58:04pm

re: #294 JacksonTn

jcm ... I hear ya ... I am doing a bunch of soul searching ... do I continue to employ many people and pay so many taxes or scale back and just bury money in the lower 40 ... I want to continue employing people but we will only take so much ... I love America ... my family is the American Dream ... but we will not get on the socialist train ... never ... we would rather keep our land and farm what we need to for our family if it comes to that ... of course with our arms ... does that seem bad ... who cares ... we will do what we have to do ... say what you want about us southern racists and we are not ... cuz you know that is what they call us anyways ... we live hard ... work hard ... give fair play to anyone who wants to work ... but dang we have a limit and we know what that is ...

I have faith ... I know all thing will pass ...

We are John Galt...

303 Koyaanistaaqa  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:58:49pm

re: #285 HelloDare

Just when I was recovering from the nausea of Sally Quinn's Michelle's Arms story, another emitic:
Clinton wants Iran presence at Afghan G8 meeting: Italian FM

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is in favour of Iran attending a meeting on Afghanistan in June when G8 foreign ministers gather in Italy, Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said Saturday.
Frattini, who met Clinton in Washington this week, told reporters she had expressed "her positive opinion on the subject of the eventual participation of Iran" at the talks to take place in the Italian city of Trieste.
"Our objective is to have the Iranian and American foreign ministers seated at the same table," he added, referring to the talks that will focus on restoring stability in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
He recalled that, for US President Barack Obama, the "absolute priority is the stabilisation of the most dangerous region in the world" -- the Afghan-Pakistan border.
Iran and the United States both attended a meeting on Afghanistan that took place in March in The Hague, on the margins of which the Obama administration carried out its first direct contacts with the Islamic republic.


WTF!?!?

304 David IV of Georgia  Sat, May 9, 2009 8:59:48pm

re: #296 NJDhockeyfan

He'll probably ask the French if June 6th can be permanently moved to a Monday so visiting American presidents can get a three-day weekend vacation only marred by a brief speech—'cause it is all about the American president, isn't it?

305 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, May 9, 2009 9:02:16pm

re: #303 Koyaanistaaqa

Just when I was recovering from the nausea of Sally Quinn's Michelle's Arms story, another emitic:
Clinton wants Iran presence at Afghan G8 meeting: Italian FM


WTF!?!?

Maybe they figure if the Taliban gives Iran nuclear bombs they'll give up their own program. Or maybe the other way; the Taliban will stop trying to take over Pakistan if they can get them from Iran.
/

306 Dark_Falcon  Sat, May 9, 2009 9:10:11pm

re: #303 Koyaanistaaqa

Just when I was recovering from the nausea of Sally Quinn's Michelle's Arms story, another emitic:
Clinton wants Iran presence at Afghan G8 meeting: Italian FM


WTF!?!?

WTF is right. All letting Iran attend an event gets you is a rant from Ahmadinnerjacket about how he wants to destroy Israel. Such an invitation would only be useful if you intended to present a list of demands in person. And the chance of our oresenting a proper set of demands to Iran starts at "Hell is a skating rink" and goes down from there.

307 David Simon  Sat, May 9, 2009 9:16:18pm

re: #303 Koyaanistaaqa

From your link:

Iran and the United States both attended a meeting on Afghanistan that took place in March in The Hague, on the margins of which the Obama administration carried out its first direct contacts with the Islamic republic.

And what came of that meeting? Iran decided it still hates us more than it hates the Taliban.

308 Cheechako  Sat, May 9, 2009 9:38:23pm

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards


I hope someone asks him about over-spending on the National Credit Card. At least find out what the credit limit is on the National Card.

309 Skinless Frank  Sat, May 9, 2009 9:43:22pm

Jenny McCarthy is to science what Albert Einstein is to ballet.

310 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 9, 2009 9:49:03pm
“There’s no end to the kind of noise people can make about vaccines,” he observes. “And so if you’re in the vaccine community, what’s the best approach to this? I don’t think it is ignoring people.” Instead, Bernier has headed up a series of award-winning projects that bring together average citizens with scientists and policymakers to reach joint recommendations on vaccines, holding public dialogues across the country to break down boundaries between the experts and everybody else, literally putting multiple perspectives around a table. His example suggests that while science’s first and greatest triumph in this area was to develop vaccinations to control or eradicate many diseases, the challenge now—not yet achieved, and in some ways even more difficult—is to preserve public support for vaccine programs long after these scourges have largely vanished from our everyday lives.

“The problem is not only research,” Bernier says. “The problem is trust.”


But how do you win the trust of people when the key leadership of other side is for a fact composed of the scientifically illiterate and the charlatans? If you call them out on that, you've just made enemies and put the thing on a personal level. If you abdicate the authority that comes with knowing the science of autism, statistics, thimerosal, etc. and just generally the authority that comes with having the evidence, then science takes yet another hit, and the public becomes ever more ready to believe anything.

Part of the answer has to be to robustly defend and popularize the science. Part of it has to be to avoid calling the marks who've been gulled by the charlatans `illiterate.' People who are hurting are bad at dispassionate analysis of their own pain. On any other topic, they'd come off as far more rational and well read. And part of it has to be to remind people of the breathtaking human price of allowing our vaccination system to break down. These diseases aren't the least bit funny.

When the threat is real and imminent, parents simply cannot be allowed to make the call. A child that has been bitten by a rabid animal MUST be vaccinated, pronto. Whether the parent understands that or not.

311 Gitarzan  Sat, May 9, 2009 9:58:17pm

re: #274 NJDhockeyfan

Obama laughs at Rush "Oxycontin" jab

Classy/

Fuck Wanda Sykes and Dear Leader can eat me...

312 Gitarzan  Sat, May 9, 2009 10:00:58pm

re: #296 NJDhockeyfan

Awww jeez...O wants to be alone in Normandy...

Obama Doesn’t Want The Commonfolk Around During D-Day Anniversary

As I said before, Dear Leader can eat me...what a classless putz!

313 William  Sat, May 9, 2009 10:49:10pm

Not sure how vaccines entered the topic du jour around these parts, but the government stating they're safe, isn't actually proof of anything, is it?

My view on this is more one of "they may not be totally safe" and therefore administered them to my children one at a time (rather than combined as a multi-vaccine cocktail), and spaced out over time.

The difference in behavior was very noticeable. When the vaccines were given as the doctor asked (2-3 cocktail shots in a single office visit) my child was not the same for days. From then on only a single vaccine was given (no multi-vaccine cocktail), and spaced out one vaccine per month. This was not easy to do (had to find the individual vaccines at various pharmacies) and was more expensive (more office visits). However, there was absolutely zero change in behavior after administering the individual, spaced out vaccines.

No research, no one's opinion or 'expertise' will dismiss the change in behavior we witnessed.

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be given, but rather that they can be given in a more careful manner than is commonly practiced today.

314 zombie  Sat, May 9, 2009 10:51:52pm
Moreover, the incidence of autism is apparently rising rapidly. Today one in every 150 children has been diagnosed on the autism spectrum; 20 years ago that statistic was one in 10,000.

There is no new epidemic of autism.

What there is, is an epidemic of autism diagnoses. And the reason for that is not that suddenly a zillion little kids got a serious disorder, but rather that the definition of autism has changed. The bar is now set very low. Before, in the '50s say, a child had to definitively exhibit severe symptoms on a non-temporary basis to get the diagnosis. Now it is very easy to get that diagnosis based on symptoms which a few decades ago would not have qualified.

A certain percentage of kids really do have real autism -- probably something close to that 1 in 10,000 statistic in earlier eras. And that is a real disorder -- I'm not downplaying that. But that majority of "autistic" kids these days merely have "austism spectrum disorders," ranging from mild to moderate. And what that means is that they exhibit some subset of autistic behaviors, but not the full range, and not the full strength.

That is what is causing the "epidemic" -- not vaccines, which are just a convenient scapegoat.

There are many possible and likely reasons underlying this loosening of autism diagnoses, which (based on the hate mail I continue to receive from an earlier comment on this topic), I will not elucidate. But I will repeat my claim that some (not all -- some) of the kids currently diagnosed as autistic will not remain autistic for their entire lives -- i.e. they will mature and (to use the dreaded phrase) "grow out of it." This is confirmed by a new study just released that modern autism can be cured with simple behavior techniques. Or just patience.

In sum, in my opinion, this mostly just a mass scare, not an epidemic. And it will likely pass.

315 zombie  Sat, May 9, 2009 10:58:31pm

re: #51 pat

Edwardian science. As in John Edwards. That is why such bad science lives on. Breast implants, AGW, CO2 as poison. contagious asbestosis, cancer cluster voodoo stats, all driven by lawyers who have convinced people that someone must be at fault for the interruption of a perfect life.

Excellent observation.

316 zombie  Sat, May 9, 2009 11:01:44pm

re: #63 neocon hippie

From the article:

But in 2006 Shattuck came under fire after he published an article in the journal Pediatrics questioning the existence of an autism epidemic. No one doubts that since the early 1990s the number of children diagnosed with autism has dramatically increased, a trend reflected in U.S. special education programs, where children enrolled as autistic grew from 22,445 in 1994–1995 to 140,254 in 2003–2004. Yet Shattuck’s study found reasons to doubt that these numbers were proof of an epidemic. Instead, he suggested that “diagnostic substitution”—in which children who previously would have been classified as mentally retarded or learning disabled were now being classified on the autism spectrum—played a significant role in the apparent increase.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

Me as well. But that's just part of it. All sorts of behavioral and cognitive abnormalities have now been subsumed under the autism umbrella. But I agree wit Shattuck that there is no actual epidemic of the disease - -just a moving of the goalposts.

317 hazzyday  Sun, May 10, 2009 1:43:07am

re: #314 zombie

The goalposts change because people don't understand Autism. As they looked at it more they realized some cases were distinct from others and a spectrum was needed to betrer cover knowledge.

Now if your hypothesis is correct and people are just being collected under a different umbrella, then the rate of some other neurological diagnosis should have gone down as these people were moved into the ASD camp.

A question would be if the re diagnosed children simply needed better care or actually have an issue.

318 hazzyday  Sun, May 10, 2009 1:45:16am

re: #313 William

The vaccines are combined like that for cost and convenience reasons not for medical reasons. Less trips to the doctors, and one shot covers all. I haven't seen a study on the health differences.

319 hazzyday  Sun, May 10, 2009 1:56:01am

re: #170 HelloDare

I think I'm going to barf.

I don't care a wit about her arms covered up or not. I think that's an issue some odd people have with her. I do think she looks unhappy and mean in a lot of photos I see of her. But Pres Obama likes her.

320 leereyno  Sun, May 10, 2009 2:43:45am

Why does socialism live on?
Why does communism live on?

Why do other ideas/ideologies that have been shown time and time again to be either a source of stagnation, or the root of profound evil on an almost unimaginable scale, continue to have political and intellectual currency?

Why do so many work to forge the very chains that will be used to enslave them?

I don't know the answer to these questions, but I think they would most definitely apply to this issue as well.

321 Ledger1  Sun, May 10, 2009 2:57:05am

Why Does the Vaccine/Autism Controversy Live On?

Trial lawyers going for big bucks?

[Discover Magazine]

Meanwhile, scientists launched numerous studies to determine whether thimerosal had actually caused an autism epidemic, while some parents and their lawyers started pointing fingers and developing legal cases...

Within weeks of this year’s federal court decisions—which examined and vindicated both the MMR vaccine and thimerosal—environmental lawyer Robert F. Kennedy Jr. wrote a column in The Huffington Post in which he continued to press his case that the government has peddled unsafe vaccines to an unsuspecting public…

A series of investigative stories published in The Times of London unearthed Wakefield’s undisclosed ties to vaccine litigation in the U.K… [He is the original author of the paper published in the Lancet to throw suspicion on vaccines -ed]

Offit points to still another threat: litigation. The wave of autism-related claims filed with the U.S. government’s Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is unprecedented. Since 2001 autism claims have outnumbered nonautism cases almost four to one. Following the science, the court has now dismissed many of them, but there is the possibility that civil litigation will follow. “I still think it’s going to be another 10 years before this really washes out in litigation,” Offit says...

See: Why does vaccine controversy live on

322 SixDegrees  Sun, May 10, 2009 4:42:02am

re: #239 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really, really don't know what to say:

Obama to hold town hall meeting on credit cards

There won't be much he can say. Congress has been telegraphing that they're going to "do something" about credit cards this term for months now. And guess what happened? My credit card company just sent me a notice that they are increasing their fees, imposing heavy penalties for balance transfers, adding a host of new penalties and all around boosting their revenue and doing end-runs around the proposals being floated by Congress. I don't really care, except in principle - I'm one of those bastards the CC companies loathe, since I never carry a balance, pay my card off every month well in advance of the due date, and never incur any of those charges or pay any interest.

I'm sure I'll start getting charged for just this sort of behavior soon.

As usual, politicians have worked themselves into a frenzy and are proposing all sorts of bullshit that will act more to penalize banks than it will to lift consumer burdens. There are a handful of things they could insist on that would make life easier for consumers, enumerated below, but it's so much more fun to indulge in rabid overkill.

Here are a few things that actually make sense:

Base payment dates and receipt of payments on postmarks; for my account, there is currently over a week's delay between when the statement is issued and when it lands in my mailbox, and there is a similar delay from when my payment leaves my mailbox and the CC company posts it to my account. This is bullshit, and is aimed at generating late charges and bumping customers up into "deadbeat" interest rate territory. Give me thirty days after the postmark to mail my payment, date of mailing once again based on the postmark, and the problem goes away. It also gives me a solid three weeks or so to anticipate and budget for the payment, if I need it; as things stand now, I often have just a few days to get my check out the door. This abbreviated time window has been getting smaller and smaller recently; I watch my account online, and have had to pay online twice in the last few months in order to make the payment on time because of the insane delay imposed by the bank's apparent inability to stamp "Received" on incoming mail.

If I get tossed into deadbeat territory for missing payments, perhaps I deserve to pay a higher interest rate. But not on an existing balance. Feel free to penalize me for future purchases or other use of my account, and for the late payment itself, but bumping rates into usurious territory for the entire balance is ridiculous. Nothing says "greed" quite so much as...greed.

Payment terms are contracts. CC companies should not be able to arbitrarily change them, which they do on a regular basis. My only option when this happens is to pay the balance off in full, immediately. A more reasonable option would be to subject new purchases to the new rules, while keeping the old rules intact until the balance generated under those rules (and the interest accumulated on that balance) are paid off.

Stop handing out credit cards to children. And stop handing out credit cards to people who obviously cannot afford to use them. Someone with $2000 in take-home pay every month whose minimum credit card payments are $1200 per month obviously are not candidates for yet another credit card. Yet CC companies favor exactly this sort of customer - the one who continues to increase their balance into the stratosphere while making the bare minimum payment each month, a situation which maximizes interest charges for the company.

Oops - about out of space. One more point to follow.

323 SixDegrees  Sun, May 10, 2009 4:48:38am

To finish up:

Give me credit for being a good customer. I never make late payments and never carry a balance, making me as near to zero risk as it is possible to be. Yet my interest rate on balances remains in solidly in double-digit territory. The excuse given is that it's not me; it's all the other deadbeats who don't pay their bills on time that cause the CC companies to charge exorbitant rates for everyone. But I know others who, having missed a single payment, are bounced into deadbeat rate territory instantly - one person I know is paying 38% on their balance every month because of a series of late payments. Really. So it sounds to me like you're more than taking care of the risky borrowers on their own terms. Where's my reward for doing things right? Not to mention that I can easily do an end run by applying for a card elsewhere, charging a large purchase to it, then transferring the balance to your company during one of your never-ending special promotions that grant me a "special" rate of between 0% and maybe 3% in return for screwing your competition out of the balance. Then I can proceed to make accelerated payments and wipe out the balance before the "special" term expires, screwing you out of your higher interest fees. Wouldn't it be simpler to just charge me a reasonable rate to begin with, instead of turning me into someone who's looking to stab you in the back at the first opportunity just on principle?

[rant over]

324 SixDegrees  Sun, May 10, 2009 4:55:41am

re: #174 jcm

We are phenomenally protected from all kinds of ordinary mishaps of life. Just 100 years ago a chest cold was a life and death matter. We don't even thing about that anymore.

Any accident that broke the skin had the potential to kill. Now the survival rates for massive injuries is astounding.

We even protect people from true poverty and starvation.

We have no idea how brutal life was such a short time ago.

A stroll through an older cemetery can be enlightening. The number of infants, toddlers and adolescents in graves up through even the 1940s is astounding. Child mortality is almost unthinkably rare in the United States and most of the industrialized world today. But that is a very, very recent development. As recently as my grandparent's lifetimes, death by disease and infection was an ever-present danger that everyone living had first-hand knowledge of.

We do not want to return to such times. Ever.

325 SixDegrees  Sun, May 10, 2009 4:58:30am

re: #314 zombie

There is no new epidemic of autism.

What there is, is an epidemic of autism diagnoses. And the reason for that is not that suddenly a zillion little kids got a serious disorder, but rather that the definition of autism has changed. The bar is now set very low. Before, in the '50s say, a child had to definitively exhibit severe symptoms on a non-temporary basis to get the diagnosis. Now it is very easy to get that diagnosis based on symptoms which a few decades ago would not have qualified.

A certain percentage of kids really do have real autism -- probably something close to that 1 in 10,000 statistic in earlier eras. And that is a real disorder -- I'm not downplaying that. But that majority of "autistic" kids these days merely have "austism spectrum disorders," ranging from mild to moderate. And what that means is that they exhibit some subset of autistic behaviors, but not the full range, and not the full strength.

That is what is causing the "epidemic" -- not vaccines, which are just a convenient scapegoat.

There are many possible and likely reasons underlying this loosening of autism diagnoses, which (based on the hate mail I continue to receive from an earlier comment on this topic), I will not elucidate. But I will repeat my claim that some (not all -- some) of the kids currently diagnosed as autistic will not remain autistic for their entire lives -- i.e. they will mature and (to use the dreaded phrase) "grow out of it." This is confirmed by a new study just released that modern autism can be cured with simple behavior techniques. Or just patience.

In sum, in my opinion, this mostly just a mass scare, not an epidemic. And it will likely pass.

The article goes on to discuss exactly this point in detail. Most scientists do not believe that the actual rate of autism is increasing, only that diagnoses of the condition are becoming more prevalent, due both to increasing awareness and to broadening of the autism spectrum to include children who were previously diagnosed with other conditions.

326 SixDegrees  Sun, May 10, 2009 5:08:05am

re: #313 William

Not sure how vaccines entered the topic du jour around these parts, but the government stating they're safe, isn't actually proof of anything, is it?

My view on this is more one of "they may not be totally safe" and therefore administered them to my children one at a time (rather than combined as a multi-vaccine cocktail), and spaced out over time.

The difference in behavior was very noticeable. When the vaccines were given as the doctor asked (2-3 cocktail shots in a single office visit) my child was not the same for days. From then on only a single vaccine was given (no multi-vaccine cocktail), and spaced out one vaccine per month. This was not easy to do (had to find the individual vaccines at various pharmacies) and was more expensive (more office visits). However, there was absolutely zero change in behavior after administering the individual, spaced out vaccines.

No research, no one's opinion or 'expertise' will dismiss the change in behavior we witnessed.

I'm not saying vaccines shouldn't be given, but rather that they can be given in a more careful manner than is commonly practiced today.

I would much rather base such conclusions on actual science than on anecdotal evidence. Given that you were obviously concerned enough about multi-dose vaccines to request single-dose treatments, your own observations immediately become suspect of being tainted by observer bias; you tend to see what you expect to see. I don't mean this as a slight; it's an extremely common bias. It's why double-blind studies were originally developed and are considered the gold standard for such research - they eliminate observer bias by keeping even the researchers in the dark about what treatment was administered to a particular patient. Self-reporting also suffers from extreme sampling error; the population is too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Right now, there is no scientific evidence showing any correlation between autism and vaccination. If there is any such correlation, it is so weak that any effect from vaccines falls well within the noise band and will remain undetectable indefinitely. Time to treat that as a fact and move on to more fruitful areas of inquiry that stand a chance of elucidating the real cause.

327 SixDegrees  Sun, May 10, 2009 5:13:40am

re: #56 DistantThunder

Why don't Republicans get a Playboy playmate to promote government fiscal discipline?

I'll do anything Amanda Peet asks me to do.

328 Dad O' Blondes  Sun, May 10, 2009 5:25:38am

re: #324 SixDegrees

Quite true.

Rick Atkinson's excellent book, "An Army at Dawn" is filled with almost unbelieveable facts regarding the second World War, and the actual condition of the US as the nation prepared to enter the war as a combatant after the 1939 invasion of Poland by the Wehrmacht.

Consider:

"...That task had started with the 16 million men who had registered for the draft in the fall of 1940...A conscript had to stand at least 5 feet tall and weigh 105 pounds; possess at least twelve of his natural thirty-two teeth; and be free of flat feet, veneral disease and hernias. More than forty of every one hundred men were rejected, a grim testament to the toll taken on the nation's health by the Great Depression..."

A rejection rate of over 40% for failing minimum health standards.

An astonishing statistic.

.

329 largolarry  Sun, May 10, 2009 6:55:40am

proposed law


If you do not vacinate your kids you must get a liability policy of $100,000,000 for any damages done to other children becasue of your lack of vacination, and a health cost indemity policy of $10,000,000 per child.

330 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 10, 2009 6:57:01am

Don't judge parents of children with ASD until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Their decisions have zero to do with "science" and everything to do with protecting their children. If you have never had children...

I was once confronted with this decision. My son (#4 of 4 healthy children) had been diagnosed (1994) with classic autism when I read some of the early material about the possible link between autism and MMR vaccines. My son had already had his early round MMR vaccination (he was two). I remember asking his doctor about the reported possible link, his doctor acknowledged the reports and told me that the greater risk was in not getting the vaccinations. His doctor also told me that the course of vaccinations given to children at or around age 5 was probably not necessary as the earlier course did the trick. Without going into a long story about his treatment, by age 5 my son did not present with classic autistic symptoms. He went on receive his age 5 "booster". I have my own opinions about the causes and treatments of autism, and the diseases called ASD, which I will not go into here.

So in the haste to label parents of autistic children, who fear vaccines, as "anti-science", know this; The vast majority of autistic children have already had their MMR vaccines. Those age 1 MMR vaccines provide immunity in over 95% of the children receiving them. The decision confronting parents of autistic children is wether to give their children a "booster" at age 5.

What would you do?

331 jzm  Sun, May 10, 2009 7:08:35am

I have three boys, born in 1994, 1996 and 1998 they all had multi-dose vaccines that my mother in-law who is a nurse gave them when they were babies.
They are perfectly fine mentally and physically.

332 Dad O' Blondes  Sun, May 10, 2009 7:36:55am

re: #330 anchors_aweigh

Great post and an appropriate balancing view. Especially when compared to many of the above comparing parents of autistic children as hysterical anti-science luddites. I would suppose some of these parents might be just that, but would also suppose that many are not.

Your "walk in their shoes" admonition is an invitation, that upon accepting, nearly everyone here would regret to the end of their days.
An apparently perfect child at birth, with a 9.9 or 10.0 apgar, later diagnosed at age 4 with PPD-NOS, or autism. Put yourself there.

For most this means a decade of medical and psychiatric specialists, almost none of it covered by insurance providers. An extraordinarily difficult home environment that NEVER goes away. And a future for a child that is clouded with disability, and the stigma and diminishment of future expectations, hopes and dreams.

To compound the personal dilemma and hurdle, even today's advanced medical scientists offer next to nothing in terms of a productive way forward for these 100's of THOUSANDS of families. It is almost always up to the parents to determine the best course of medical, psychiatric and schooling choices for their afflicted child. There is no road map, there is no jungle guide, there is, in truth, very little. And there is the tragedy of family break down, which is a frequent hand-maiden to this unhappy circumstance.

And so, when some of these parents wonder about specific causes, I think it's fair to give them wide berth and boundaries in their search for the answers which very few are helping them to find.

.

333 karl__lembke  Sun, May 10, 2009 8:21:14am

So... why the increase?

I read once that autism is essentially diagnosed by a checklist. That creates lots of room for subjectivity. If the items on the list are vague enough, different people will check "yes" or "no" for the same individual.

Richard Feynman once told the story of how he was almost classed as insane, because he answered a number of questions on a check list literally. For example...
Examiner: "Do you think those people over there are looking at you?"
Feynman: "Yes." (We're at the front of an otherwise empty room -- what else is there, really, to look at?)
Examiner: (Hmmm... paranoid delusion.)

Examiner: "Have you ever seen a UFO?"
Feynman: "Yes." (I've seen any number of flying objects and never found out what they were.)
Examiner: (Hmmm... flying saucer nut.)

And so on.

And if there's some incentive to diagnose one way or the other, this can add up to a huge amount of elbow room.

334 Jim D  Sun, May 10, 2009 8:40:56am

re: #330 anchors_aweigh

I am happy to judge them when their irrational beliefs and behaviors endanger the children of others.

335 Jim D  Sun, May 10, 2009 8:46:36am

re: #332 Dad O' Blondes


And so, when some of these parents wonder about specific causes, I think it's fair to give them wide berth and boundaries in their search for the answers which very few are helping them to find.
.

Their 'search for answers' will end up putting the children of others in danger. How is that fair?

336 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 10, 2009 10:32:20am

re: #332 Dad O' Blondes

Thanks Dad O' Blondes,

You will note that our posts got dinged-down by the more scientific members of the echo chamber.

337 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 10, 2009 10:36:43am

re: #334 Jim D

I am happy to judge them when their irrational beliefs and behaviors endanger the children of others.

Well, in your haste to judge it's obvious that you cannot tell the difference between parents of autistic children (whose children have already been vaccinated) and who rightly fear what another round of MMR vaccine will do to their child and those parents of healthy children who don't vaccinate their children out of ignorance.

338 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 10, 2009 10:37:15am

Absolutely -- I'm going to ding down posts that even hint at promoting this dangerous nonsense. And your comment about "the more scientific members of the echo chamber" is just pathetic -- as you use a computer to post your comments on the Internet.

339 William  Sun, May 10, 2009 11:30:18am

re: #326 SixDegrees

I would much rather base such conclusions on actual science than on anecdotal evidence.

Observing my child zoned out for 3 days after receiving several vaccine cocktails at a single office visit is hardly anecdotal.

As I said in post 313, why not act with prudence, and treat vaccines with more caution? It's win/win. The child receives the vaccines, and the quantity of any possibly harmful chemicals is reduced by spreading the vaccines out.

Your approach assumes a "faith" in official sources and official studies (which are often agenda-driven, not fact-driven). My approach assumes there may be some risk, so act accordingly.

340 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Sun, May 10, 2009 12:26:02pm

We don't know what causes autism. What we do know beyond a shadow of a doubt is that vaccines have absolutely nothing to do with autism.

Don't worry about how many more vaccines your children are getting compared to when you were vaccinated. Also, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Darn vaxxers!

341 leereyno  Sun, May 10, 2009 12:41:13pm

re: #322 SixDegrees

Why are you using the MAIL to submit payments?

The only check I write in a typical month is to pay the rent, and then only because the apartment complex wants to charge extra for using a debit card.

Everything else is direct deposit / direct withdrawal. In the case of my credit card, I pay it each month my manually specifying how much money to transfer. It isn't instantaneous, but it is usually within 24 to 48 hours. Not a problem when the due date is a week out.

342 anchors_aweigh  Sun, May 10, 2009 1:30:23pm

re: #338 Charles

Why Does the Vaccine/Autism Controversy Live On? That's the name of your thread, Charles. I am not promoting "this dangerous non-sense", I am only responding to the threads rhetorical question. By the way, my explanation is based on first-hand experience, vice the anecdotal.

This is my theory;

1. Parents of autistic children fear the MMR vaccine (we are talking about the 5 year booster) because their children had the MMR vaccine and got sick. The parents are in "do no harm" mode. They gave their children the vaccine once, so that does not sound like a rejection of science to me. Sounds like they are now concerned for the continued well-being of their child. They are thinking locally not globally, if you are a parent you know what I am talking about.

2. Pediatricians treating autistic children will tell you that the risk of not giving your child the 5-year MMR booster is relatively low because 95-98% of the children receiving the age 1 MMR vaccine develop immunity anyway. At least the ones I consulted with told me that. A cursory look at wiki backs this up.

That's it, you rhetorically asked about the autism/anti-vaccine link and I gave you a possible explanation. I am most assuredly not promoting "dangerous non-sense".

I have no explanation for why the parents of healthy children in CO and OR do not vaccinate their children. I suspect it has something to do with the "organic" lifestyle rather than a rejection of science. Ignorance, pure and simple. Science has nothing to do with it and you can't convince them logically. As the poster said above...social Darwinism will take care that.

With respect Charles. You blog a lot about extremism/lack of tolerance and the corrosive effects on our society. I agree. Reading the comments above, I see a decided lack of tolerance by people with no first-hand knowledge of the subject. Comment #339 above has it exactly right, there is a solution.

343 moonbeams  Sun, May 10, 2009 9:52:53pm

Oddly enough the SAME Discover website published a story in April 2007 discussing the immune and gut issues of some with autism.

[Link: discovermagazine.com...]

I encourage people to read it, its a very good article and describes my child and our personal experience very well, he has MANY gut and immune issues.

344 Robert Schwartz  Sun, May 10, 2009 11:19:49pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout, re: #251 Desert Dog, re: #279 Last Mohican:

The Jeffery Epstein who is a billionaire and a really creepy pervert, is a different Jeffrey Epstein than the one who is working the ammo crisis.

1. They have different middle initials.

2. Ammo Jeff worked for Vietnam Veterans for the Truth, which opposed John Kerry. Perv Jeff used to pal around with Bill Clinton and make big contributions to Lib Dem politicians. One is a righty, the other is a lefty.

345 Robert Schwartz  Sun, May 10, 2009 11:23:51pm

The real reason I checked this thread was that I read the article and was reminded of what a hypocrite a Kennedy is Bobby Jr. is an "environmental" lawyer who has campaigned against renewable energy (wind farm) because it may be seen from his family's estate on Cape Cod. His opposition to the science of vaccines sheds a harsh glare on his claim to be an "environmentalist".

346 Sacred Plants  Mon, May 11, 2009 1:02:19am

Why? Over the last century industrial medicine has pronounced an increasing number of mock diagnoses against healthy ways of life. The talk of autism is just the tip of an iceberg of people paving sane ways in an unprecedentedly insane world, who have been scared away from industrial medicine by businesses attempting to push their ideology and their drugs on them.

When we cannot find a way to cut the corrupted branches off the tree of industrial medicine because those businesses are immune to sanity, maybe there is a way to cut that entire tree, by drying up the trust of the gullible by any means...

347 Dad O' Blondes  Mon, May 11, 2009 6:14:03am

Vaccines do not cause autism. That was the ruling in each of three critical test cases handed down on February 12 by the U.S. Court of Federal Claims in Washington, D.C. After a decade of speculation, argument, and analysis...

I would like to point out that the arbiter here is a US judge, who is put in the difficult position of determining scientific and medical fact. And comes to the conclusion that "vaccines do not cause autism".

I'm sure the judge had at his disposal an array of medical and psychiatric experts, skilled and experienced in pediatric diagnoses. And that this conclusion was reached in good faith.

Yet, I'm also quite sure there are numerous court rulings the majority here profoundly disgaree with, most notably recent court rulings expanding the definition of marriage to include same sex couples. These "rulings" are instances of court intrusion with which I, personally, most assuredly disagree. And even though a "court says" gay marriage is legally recognized, I am certainly not teaching my children that this sort of thing is in any way "good" or "OK". Far from it, in fact.

Causality in autism diagnoses is an acute problem. And has eluded medical researchers for the past decade or so, even as patient populations are rapidly increasing. More precise diagnoses is hardly the answer; a well-crafted post up in the thread points out correctly that if this were indeed the case, then we would observe a corresponding decrease in other but related diagnoses, notably for mental retardation and similar maladies.

On the point of vaccines: I would imagine that the parents of every school age child attending a publc school in this great country would know that routine health checking of EVERY STUDENT requires the confirmation from a medical practioner that your child, each and individually, has been vaccinated for certain illnesses. This includes MMR.

I would further point out that the "treatment burden" of autism, especially among higher functioning populations, is shouldered -- in large part -- by the public school system. And of course, this accrues to you, the taxpayer, in the form of increased school taxes which go to cover the numerous specialists, extra classes, isolated classes, socialization treatments, etc. which "classified students" receive as a routine part of what is called "IEP's" -- Individual Education Plans.

I believe that vaccine-avoidance is an error, and carries the usual element of "calculated risk". And I further believe there are far more compelling examples than autism reaction of anti-medical science behaviors out there.

.

348 Curtain of Oz  Mon, May 11, 2009 7:55:19am

You have people protesting "designed' crops. It is a symptom of privileged upbringing. If you've never been hungry, you can preach "organic" all day. Wonderful for the small percentage of the World with money to buy food, access to health care. Not so nice for those living hand to mouth.

If you've never experienced mumps, you are not likely to fear it. Throw in a dose of paranoia, hatred of corporations, gov't, and "the man." Many are very privileged, and have not experienced loosing a child (thank you modern medicine). If there is a M, M, or R outbreak, let's see how long it takes them to get in line.

349 doppelganglander  Mon, May 11, 2009 2:52:17pm

re: #348 Curtain of Oz

You have people protesting "designed' crops. It is a symptom of privileged upbringing. If you've never been hungry, you can preach "organic" all day. Wonderful for the small percentage of the World with money to buy food, access to health care. Not so nice for those living hand to mouth.

If you've never experienced mumps, you are not likely to fear it. Throw in a dose of paranoia, hatred of corporations, gov't, and "the man." Many are very privileged, and have not experienced loosing a child (thank you modern medicine). If there is a M, M, or R outbreak, let's see how long it takes them to get in line.

You make an excellent point and I updinged you to get you out of negative territory. I am sick of those peabrains who try to prevent GM food from reaching starving people because there might be some hypothetical harm in it, if you eat 18 metric tons of it a day.

350 BartB  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:55:51am

I don't have enough information to validate the studies done recently.
I do, however, know of at least two big time studies done in the past by the Government that were designed from the beginning to reach a desired
conclusion.
They were not bad science, they were bad fraud.
For those who give a damn, look into these:
1. The study done by the Army to prove that Blacks could not be detected by body odor.
2. The study which showed that marijuana has no valid medical benefit.

It is not difficult to show why these studies reached the conclusion that the Government wanted, to support the policies the Government wanted.

Why is it that the same people who will discard a study out of hand if it was paid for in any part by someone they don't trust?
And yet, they will cheerfully accept the word of some "Science" group paid for in full by the Government, especially if they get the "right" answer.


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 Frank says:

Children are naive -- they trust everyone. School is bad enough, but, if you put a child anywhere in the vicinity of a church, you're asking for trouble.