Totten: The Future of Iraq

WorldMay 2009 • Views: 1,956

Michael Totten has posted the first of a four-part series exploring the big issue on everyone’s minds: The Future of Iraq.

Iraq has never been successfully governed by anyone but a strongman. You might even say Iraq has never been successfully governed at all. Who today sincerely believes the use of force by Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party regime was an effective “remedy” for the Iraqi people, as General Nasser put it? Still, despite my unease with what he was saying, I don’t think he necessarily meant a totalitarian system is the solution to what ails Iraq.

“Twelve JAM members were brought to court recently,” he said. “They asked to be put under American justice because you are softer and jail people under better conditions. Iraqis are not like Americans. You are educated, we aren’t. Without force, Iraqis cannot be civilized. Americans don’t use real force. You talk to people nicely and worry about human rights.”

This is how many Iraqi optimists talk, I am sorry to say. Most Iraqis who think the worst there is over, that the surge was more or less the end of the war, don’t believe Iraq is going to look like post-communist nations in Eastern Europe. Baghdad is not the next Prague. Iraq may be less brutal from here on out than it has been, but that doesn’t mean it will be a model democracy.

Jump to bottom

92 comments

Nevergiveup Tue, May 12, 2009 9:17:50am

I think at this point it is important that the USA stays involved and focused in Iraq. And that I am afraid is not going to happen?

Kragar Tue, May 12, 2009 9:18:28am

You are educated, we aren’t. Without force, Iraqis cannot be civilized. Americans don’t use real force. You talk to people nicely and worry about human rights.”

I completely agree with that statement and its going to come around and bite us in the ass.

Kosh's Shadow Tue, May 12, 2009 9:19:16am

Meanwhile some Iraqi "lawmakers" want to sue Israel over the strike against the Osiraq reactor. Of course, they have a problem doing so while not recognizing Israel, but they'll try.

Iraqi parliamentarians are weighing a lawsuit against Israel in which they would demand compensation for Israel's 1981 strike on the Osiraq nuclear reactor. Israel demolished the reactor to prevent the terror-supporting state from attaining nuclear weapons.

After that, Japan and Germany will sue the US, Great Britain, and France.

Desert Dog Tue, May 12, 2009 9:19:35am

Why can't the rest of the media do this kind of work? He is always getting straight to the heart of the matter. Keep up the good work, Mr. Totten!

Kragar Tue, May 12, 2009 9:20:33am

re: #4 Desert Dog

Why can't the rest of the media do this kind of work?

Not enough money, too much travel and too dangerous for them.

Shug Tue, May 12, 2009 9:21:25am

Iraqi “resistance” groups likewise have mutually exclusive goals. They must resist the Americans, but they'll be useless the instant they win.

reminds of American progressives needing to keep so many Americans in poverty to exist, all the while claiming that they are trying to help the poor

Earick Tue, May 12, 2009 9:21:39am

Funny how individual freedom never works... Until it is tried!

Of course the people of Iraq could never govern themselves!?!
Say what! Just dumb!

Randall Gross Tue, May 12, 2009 9:21:57am

The whole future of Iraq is dependent on the Iraqi's, and how they feel about Iran. It's going to be interesting to see how this evolves and I"m looking forward to the next three installments. If Iran stays in heavy destabilization mode it could bode very ill for the future, but they also need to recognize that there's a tit for tat here: the Sunni countries can destabilize them the exact same way as well, the past few years most of those agents of destruction and destabilization have been focused elsewhere, that could change if Iran enacts the "3rd Fitna" option after we leave Iraq.

Desert Dog Tue, May 12, 2009 9:22:47am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not enough money, too much travel and too dangerous for them.

Well, the NYT spend millions on bringing us the latest from Abu Ghraib. I think it's a matter of priorities, not money.

sattv4u2 Tue, May 12, 2009 9:22:53am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not enough money, too much travel and too dangerous for them.

Somewhere, Ernie Pyle weeps!

Cheesehead Tue, May 12, 2009 9:23:17am

Between the tribal elements, and the theocracy elements, there is little wiggle room for a true democracy to emerge in Iraq. But if it doesn't, the danger of another terrorist state emerging will only grow.

baier Tue, May 12, 2009 9:24:05am

re: #4 Desert Dog

Why can't the rest of the media do this kind of work?!

They can...they just don't. If the truth doesn't fit the narrative you are pushing, ignore the story.

redc1c4 Tue, May 12, 2009 9:24:38am

re: #3 Kosh's Shadow

Meanwhile some Iraqi "lawmakers" want to sue Israel over the strike against the Osiraq reactor. Of course, they have a problem doing so while not recognizing Israel, but they'll try.

After that, Japan and Germany will sue the US, Great Britain, and France.

but not Russia and China?

Kragar Tue, May 12, 2009 9:25:18am

re: #9 Desert Dog

Well, the NYT spend millions on bringing us the latest from Abu Ghraib. I think it's a matter of priorities, not money.

Thats why reporters worry about crap like Abu Ghraib, NYT and the other media groups shell out the big bucks for those stories. Actually going to Iraq and interview leaders on the ground? Where is the money in that?

BignJames Tue, May 12, 2009 9:25:27am

re: #11 Cheesehead

Between the tribal elements, and the theocracy elements, there is little wiggle room for a true democracy to emerge in Iraq. But if it doesn't, the danger of another terrorist state emerging will only grow.

Isn't that reflective of Arab culture? Tribe first, country second?

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:25:38am

After 800 years of Islamic influenced culture, when "strongman" Generalisimo Franco died, many Spaniards said the same thing about their poor country: "we need a strongman," "we're too tribal" to handle democracy.

Some Spaniards had wanted stalinist international communism to run their country, rather than trusting fellow Spaniards to govern themselves.

After 30 years of post-WWII US Military presence in Spain, the country today is so liberal, it has elected red diaper Socialists and fancies itself avante garde like California. Heck, Spain is basically Californian now.

Iraq could be the next California, if Spain's example of going from dictatorship to democracy is any guide.

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 12, 2009 9:25:57am

Vatican spokesman: Pope was 'never, never' in Hitler Youth

Is this like "Never, never land"?

Randall Gross Tue, May 12, 2009 9:26:30am

The comparisons between Hezbollah in Lebanon and Qods force in Iraq are very apt, something everyone needs to pay attention to.

Desert Dog Tue, May 12, 2009 9:26:51am

re: #8 Thanos

The whole future of Iraq is dependent on the Iraqi's, and how they feel about Iran. It's going to be interesting to see how this evolves and I"m looking forward to the next three installments. If Iran stays in heavy destabilization mode it could bode very ill for the future, but they also need to recognize that there's a tit for tat here: the Sunni countries can destabilize them the exact same way as well, the past few years most of those agents of destruction and destabilization have been focused elsewhere, that could change if Iran enacts the "3rd Fitna" option after we leave Iraq.

It's always been up to the Iraqis. They will succeed or fail on their own merits and efforts. They may fall right back into the same pattern as before once we leave, letting a despot take over and enslave them again. We have given them an opportunity most countries like them do not get....a clean slate. Let's see if they make it work.

I just hope we do not disengage prematurely. We have stayed in other places for years and years, I would hope that would be the case here. But, you never know.

Shug Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:08am

Totten's photos are amazing

1SG(ret) Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:23am

Not sure where I heard or read it, but the statement "A Nation's military is only as strong as their enemy perceives them to be" keeps running through my mind. Sure wish teh "One" understood this.

baier Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:29am

re: #18 Thanos

The comparisons between Hezbollah in Lebanon and Qods force in Iraq are very apt, something everyone needs to pay attention to.

Aside from the fact they are both pals of the Obama administration.

Nevergiveup Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:30am

re: #13 redc1c4

but not Russia and China?

You generally don't sue people who you are afraid may kill you just for the hell of it? Fear works.

Mr. E. Train Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:46am

Civilization isnt natural. It must be taught and enforced until it becomes a habit. It is why I am so leery of Islam. It seems to be the tendency of that creed to degrade the habits of what we considered civilized behavior.

experiencedtraveller Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:51am

The United States was previously governed by a strongman too.

We got rid of our tyrant (with a little help from our friends) and Iraq got rid of theirs.

It will be a long and choppy season but once sown freedom grows.

Cheesehead Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:51am

re: #15 BignJames

More like country third, after religion.

Randall Gross Tue, May 12, 2009 9:28:56am

re: #19 Desert Dog

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't forsee them going back to despot, but they aren't going to be a modern democratic republic either.

jvic Tue, May 12, 2009 9:29:10am

To this day I do not understand the rationale for invading Iraq. If the enemy is Islamism, why use limited resources first to overthrow a secular regime?

It may be no coincidence that the Administration that invaded Iraq also managed to get a Democratic Congress and very liberal President elected in this (formerly?) center-right country.

The foregoing is written with America's national interest in mind. As an individual, of course I wish the Iraqis well.

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:29:34am

re: #17 Spare O'Lake

Vatican spokesman: Pope was 'never, never' in Hitler Youth

Is this like "Never, never land"?

* * * * * *
If a Catholic non-party member was drafted by the Wehrmacht at 14 or 15 years to man a machine gun against Americans, no, that would not be the same thing.

wrenchwench Tue, May 12, 2009 9:32:00am

You are educated, we aren’t.

There's a cure for that.

sattv4u2 Tue, May 12, 2009 9:32:36am

re: #28 jvic

To this day I do not understand the rationale for invading Iraq. If the enemy is Islamism, why use limited resources first to overthrow a secular regime?

It may be no coincidence that the Administration that invaded Iraq also managed to get a Democratic Congress and very liberal President elected in this (formerly?) center-right country.

The foregoing is written with America's national interest in mind. As an individual, of course I wish the Iraqis well.

You're making the classic lefty mistake, melding the War Against Islamic Fascisism and the war against Saddam Hussein together. They were 2 seperate events, percipitaded by 2 totally different sets of events

Randall Gross Tue, May 12, 2009 9:32:49am

re: #28 jvic

You need to think longer term. Iran, a religious dictatorship, is now bordered by four democracies (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Turkey.) They might not be our ideals of democracy, but they are not a religious tyranny either.

In other words they are fenced in except for the Syria side. That will work for us the next few decades if it holds up.

FrogMarch Tue, May 12, 2009 9:32:57am

Who today sincerely believes the use of force by Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party regime was an effective “remedy” for the Iraqi people, as General Nasser put it?

The arrogant left.

Earick Tue, May 12, 2009 9:33:02am

re: #25 experiencedtraveller

"The United States was previously governed by a strongman too.
We got rid of our tyrant (with a little help from our friends) and Iraq got rid of theirs.
It will be a long and choppy season but once sown freedom grows."
and grows and grows!
Upding!

Kragar Tue, May 12, 2009 9:33:12am

re: #30 wrenchwench

There's a cure for that.

Step 1) Convince them rote memorization of the Koran does not constitute an education

and thats the sticking point

unreconstructed rebel Tue, May 12, 2009 9:34:39am

re: #16 alegrias

Iraq could be the next California ...

I am having trouble getting my head around that, but if it comes to pass, George Bush will be proven a genius. Just wait until that becomes the causus bellum for the ME radicals. LOL.

opnion Tue, May 12, 2009 9:35:41am

re: #11 Cheesehead

Between the tribal elements, and the theocracy elements, there is little wiggle room for a true democracy to emerge in Iraq. But if it doesn't, the danger of another terrorist state emerging will only grow.

Right & their coreligionists in Iran won't be much help.
Iran considers Iraq a lost province.

[deleted] Tue, May 12, 2009 9:35:55am

KenJen Tue, May 12, 2009 9:35:57am

I haven't heard one report out of Iraq by the MSM until this latest shooting and of course the murderer is one of our own.

Shug Tue, May 12, 2009 9:36:15am

What will happen to the price of oil when Iraq becomes California and has to close all of it's oil fields because they are endangering the Iraqi spotted owl ?

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 12, 2009 9:36:40am

re: #24 Mr. E. Train

Civilization isnt natural. It must be taught and enforced until it becomes a habit. It is why I am so leery of Islam. It seems to be the tendency of that creed to degrade the habits of what we considered civilized behavior.

I fear for both fragile democracies, Iraq & Afghanistan's. How can they be democracies, where half the population is considered second-class? Women in Burkas possessing purple index fingers doesn't prove a democracy.

Outrider Tue, May 12, 2009 9:37:18am

re: #27 Thanos

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't forsee them going back to despot, but they aren't going to be a modern democratic republic either.

No. But they can have a modified democracy. Neither Germany or Japan have a true democratic republic after the war either, but instead modified to their own cultures. It worked for them, it can possibly work for Iraq if enough people there want it; and they seem to.

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:38:06am

re: #28 jvic

To this day I do not understand the rationale for invading Iraq. If the enemy is Islamism, why use limited resources first to overthrow a secular regime?

It may be no coincidence that the Administration that invaded Iraq also managed to get a Democratic Congress and very liberal President elected in this (formerly?) center-right country.

The foregoing is written with America's national interest in mind. As an individual, of course I wish the Iraqis well.

* * * *
Toppling Saddam was a ripe juicy opportunity to "change" the terrorist equation:

Saddam hosted terrorists and terror training camps in his regime.
Saddam while a Baathist socialist, increasingly courted islamists and became more publicly "islamist" to gain favor with the extremists.
Saddam went on a mosque building binge to gain favor with his extremists.
Saddam paid suicide bombers' families $25,000 apiece to foment terror abroad.
Saddam had used biological weapons against his own people and invaded other countries, so had a history of atrocities and violence.
Saddam's Iraq was a formerly wealthy country that had had a middle class and was relatively more developed than other surrounding basket cases.
Iraq has the potential to be a wealthy, educated, peaceful giant in the Middle East, allied with US.

sattv4u2 Tue, May 12, 2009 9:38:08am

re: #41 unrealizedviewpoint

I fear for both fragile democracies, Iraq & Afghanistan's. How can they be democracies, where half the population is considered second-class? Women in Burkas possessing purple index fingers doesn't prove a democracy.

But it does prove a step, albeit a baby one, in the right direction. 8 years ago those same women would have been beaten for even approaching a voting booth!

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 9:38:59am

Exactly. This is a people without any democratic tradition. Western philosophy has yet to take root there--and it may never do so without several generations of "cultivation".

CommonCents Tue, May 12, 2009 9:39:16am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not enough money, too much travel and too dangerous for them.

Hogwash. If they employed someone of Joe Galloway, Michael Yon, or Totten's caliber and ran his pieces exclusively, it would be profitable. But they are too busy pushing the company mantra through the pens of their writers. They won't allow too much unvarnished truth.

Desert Dog Tue, May 12, 2009 9:40:02am

re: #27 Thanos

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't forsee them going back to despot, but they aren't going to be a modern democratic republic either.

Well, either way, it'll be their call in the long run

avanti Tue, May 12, 2009 9:40:07am

More on the replacement of the General in charge in Afghanistan.

"The Obama Administration has made Afghanistan the central front in the war on terror over the past month, it had concluded that McKiernan's tenure there had involved too much wheel-spinning even as the Taliban extended its reach. There was not enough of the "new thinking" demanded by Gates. "It's time for new leadership and fresh eyes," Gates said, refusing to elaborate. He noted that Joints Chiefs of Staff chairman Admiral Mike Mullen, and General David Petraeus, who as chief of U.S. Central Command oversees the Afghan war, had endorsed the move. "

More at the link

General.

CommonCents Tue, May 12, 2009 9:40:15am

I liked the General's comments from Totten's article

“I had Iraqis here at my house recently,” [General Nassar] said. “I told them Americans are better than you because they keep their word and they are disciplined. American people are not profiteers. Their wisdom led them to this. I want Iraqis to learn about American honor.”

CommonCents Tue, May 12, 2009 9:41:57am

re: #48 avanti

More on the replacement of the General in charge in Afghanistan.

"The Obama Administration has made Afghanistan the central front in the war on terror over the past month, ..."

Riiiiight. I believe the decrease in violence in Iraq and the radical increase in Afghan/Pak violence would suggest that Al Qaeda/Talib has made it the central front.

opnion Tue, May 12, 2009 9:43:00am

re: #45 calcajun

Exactly. This is a people without any democratic tradition. Western philosophy has yet to take root there--and it may never do so without several generations of "cultivation".

I don't see Iraq embracing Western Culture. if they become a democracy of some sort & don't align strongly with Iran, then we are ahead of the game.

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:43:05am

re: #36 unreconstructed rebel

Iraq could be the next California ...

I am having trouble getting my head around that, but if it comes to pass, George Bush will be proven a genius. Just wait until that becomes the causus bellum for the ME radicals. LOL.

* * * *
You only have to go to the Imperial Valley of California and see the date palms and canals to think, hey, this is positively Middle Eastern.

There are enormous communities of Arabs & Iranians in California, attracted by the familiar climate & culture which Spain's 800 year islamic heritage left on the West Coast and the hemisphere.

quickjustice Tue, May 12, 2009 9:44:48am

Prior to the First World War, Iraq was governed by the Ottoman Turks, who treated it as part of their empire. After the Turks foolishly sided with the Germans during the First World War, Winston Churchill and his French counterpart divided up the Ottoman Empire, and drew the boundaries of modern Iraq with British interests in mind. British interests were in assuring a reliable supply of oil for the Royal Navy. They installed a puppet, pro-British king.

Saddam Hussein's Baath Party was created by the Gestapo in 1943 to undermine British interests in the Middle East. When his regime fell to the U.S. Army, that left Syria's Baath Party as the only surviving Nazi-created regime in the middle East.

I don't accept the shibboleth that Iraqis are permanently incapable of governing themselves. They may need a generation to learn, but they are as capable of this as any human beings.

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:45:16am

re: #40 Shug

What will happen to the price of oil when Iraq becomes California and has to close all of it's oil fields because they are endangering the Iraqi spotted owl ?

* * * *
Our work will be done!////

Let them eat silicon. Let Apple set up a new Silicon Valley in Iraq.

CommonCents Tue, May 12, 2009 9:46:17am

re: #19 Desert Dog

It's always been up to the Iraqis. They will succeed or fail on their own merits and efforts. They may fall right back into the same pattern as before once we leave, letting a despot take over and enslave them again. We have given them an opportunity most countries like them do not get....a clean slate. Let's see if they make it work.

I just hope we do not disengage prematurely. We have stayed in other places for years and years, I would hope that would be the case here. But, you never know.

I agree. You would think though, that generations who have only known government by a strongman getting a flavor of democracy-light recently would make them more likely to rise-up in opposition if another strongman came along to take over.

funky chicken Tue, May 12, 2009 9:47:04am

Totten's piece reminds me why I didn't howl about Joe Biden's comments back in 2007 about the possibility of partition of Iraq into 3 autonomous regions.

If it got our people out of there sooner, I'm all for it, frankly. The US Army is in terrible shape and the Iraq deployments are the cause.

And yeah, I understand the downside, but it's not the US Military's job to bleed and die until a bunch of folks who hate each other decide to become friends and fellow countrymen. And yeah, I know the Iraqi government squealed and said that they don't like the partition plan, but I'm suspicious that they just want to keep the US gravy train flowing.

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:47:15am

re: #44 sattv4u2

But it does prove a step, albeit a baby one, in the right direction. 8 years ago those same women would have been beaten for even approaching a voting booth!

* * * * *
Women (and others) would have gone into the SHREDDER under Saddam's goons.

Earick Tue, May 12, 2009 9:49:33am

re: #45 calcajun

"Exactly. This is a people without any democratic tradition. Western philosophy has yet to take root there--and it may never do so without several generations of "cultivation"."

My great, great grandaddy didn't even know what democracy meant. Hell he couldn't even read! He certainly didn't have a 'tradition of democracy'! But he knew enough to stay the winter in Valley Forge and help form this 'Republic'!
But then, hell, he didn't know what a republic was either!

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 9:49:44am

re: #51 opnion

I don't see Iraq embracing Western Culture. if they become a democracy of some sort & don't align strongly with Iran, then we are ahead of the game.

It will take years and several generations for them to move from the tribal/factional politics that have beset that region for centuries.

Desert Dog Tue, May 12, 2009 9:49:52am

re: #49 CommonCents

I liked the General's comments from Totten's article

No, no, no....we are occupiers and invaders bent on taking their oil wealth and killing as many as them as possible as we enslave the survivors for our new American Middle East Empire!

/DNC

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:51:01am

re: #53 quickjustice

* * * *
Thank you for explaining how Saddam's Baath party was a Nazi creation to beat the British.

Leftists who think Saddam's Nazi-like government was just peachy, are hypocrites.

quickjustice Tue, May 12, 2009 9:52:01am

re: #58 Earick

"You could have tracked the Army from White Marsh to Valley Forge by the blood of their feet."

-G. Washington

sattv4u2 Tue, May 12, 2009 9:53:19am

re: #51 opnion

I don't see Iraq embracing Western Culture. if they become a democracy of some sort & don't align strongly with Iran, then we are ahead of the game.

As someone who has been there about 2 1/2 years ago on business, I can assure you that they are. At the rate that they gobble up Western videos and music, consumer electronics and clothing!

alegrias Tue, May 12, 2009 9:54:52am

re: #59 calcajun

It will take years and several generations for them to move from the tribal/factional politics that have beset that region for centuries.

* * * *
Spain which had islamist traditions, was very tribal and very Catholic, went from that to extremely secular and liberal almost HOllywood values, in under 20 years.

CommonCents Tue, May 12, 2009 9:56:28am

re: #60 Desert Dog

No, no, no....we are occupiers and invaders bent on taking their oil wealth and killing as many as them as possible as we enslave the survivors for our new American Middle East Empire!

/DNC

Which is why we only pay $0.50 for a gallon of gas now.
///

Cato the Elder Tue, May 12, 2009 9:57:29am

A young cousin of mine is reading Hobbes in college and posted on Facebook last night about how she hates him and his "incorrect punctuation".

Then a friend of hers said, "Yeah, I mean, I was thinking more along the lines of justifying horrible atrocities and believing that humans have no capacity for anything beyond self interest and are best controlled by a despot, but if you're going to hate on hobbes [sic], punctuation works too."

Which made me think.

So I wrote: "As for despots, it seems in some cases, at least, a majority of Americans agree with him. At any rate the popular judgment on the Iraq war objectively correlates to the statement 'the Iraqi people would be better off if Saddam Hussein were still in power'."

Discuss.

[deleted] Tue, May 12, 2009 9:58:01am

quickjustice Tue, May 12, 2009 9:59:13am

re: #64 alegrias

I agree that the pace of social and cultural change has accelerated dramatically because of the new communications technology. That can cut both ways! Young Americans are immersed in leftist, Hollywood youth cultural values. It distorts their thinking. We must learn to address this. We have to become media savvy.

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 10:00:14am

re: #58 Earick

Uh, unless you are of advanced years, I think you're a generation short there. My great-great grandfather was born in 1828 and got off the boast here in 1851.

Second, unless your ancestor was the village idiot, nearly all the Colonists thought of themselves as Englishmen and were supposed to be treated as such by the King and Parliament; they all had an understanding of their rights. They were all products of the tumultuous 17th century in England which saw two revolutions, a dictatorship and a regicide. The colonists' ancestors came here to escape the religious stranglehold of the C of E and the intolerance of same. In short, the knew what they were fighting for.

quickjustice Tue, May 12, 2009 10:00:29am

re: #66 Cato the Elder

If kids are arguing about Hobbes, then they're better off intellectually than I had thought!

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 10:00:59am

re: #64 alegrias

When was that? 1492 or 1976? (BTW, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead)

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 10:01:30am

re: #70 quickjustice

If kids are arguing about Hobbes, then they're better off intellectually than I had thought!

Depends--if it's the tiger or the philosopher.

reine.de.tout Tue, May 12, 2009 10:01:48am

re: #66 Cato the Elder

A young cousin of mine is reading Hobbes in college and posted on Facebook last night about how she hates him and his "incorrect punctuation".

Then a friend of hers said, "Yeah, I mean, I was thinking more along the lines of justifying horrible atrocities and believing that humans have no capacity for anything beyond self interest and are best controlled by a despot, but if you're going to hate on hobbes [sic], punctuation works too."

Which made me think.

So I wrote: "As for despots, it seems in some cases, at least, a majority of Americans agree with him. At any rate the popular judgment on the Iraq war objectively correlates to the statement 'the Iraqi people would be better off if Saddam Hussein were still in power'."

Discuss.

With cousins like you posing questions like that . . . who needs college?

Ringo the Gringo Tue, May 12, 2009 10:02:17am

re: #28 jvic

To this day I do not understand the rationale for invading Iraq. If the enemy is Islamism, why use limited resources first to overthrow a secular regime?

It may be no coincidence that the Administration that invaded Iraq also managed to get a Democratic Congress and very liberal President elected in this (formerly?) center-right country.

The foregoing is written with America's national interest in mind. As an individual, of course I wish the Iraqis well.

I don't know if you remember, but before 9/11 the international Left was doing everything they could to get all sanctions against Iraq lifted, and they were on the brink of success. All the while Saddam Hussein, with the help of the UN, was making a mockery of the "Oil for Food" program.

After 9/11 the US would find themselves in a war against "Terror" in Afghanistan while at the same time having our planes fired upon by an Iraqi dictator who was giving cash payments to the families of suicide bombers in Israel.

And so the thinking went that Iraq, if given a chance, could become a free (or at least relatively free) Arab democracy and offer an alternative to despotism (theocratic, tyrannical or monarchy) that rules every Arab country.

In other words, there can never be an end to the threat posed by radical Islam so long as jihad was the only available alternative the dictatorships that run every other Arab country. Democracy in Iraq was intended as a third option, one that could lure young men away from religious fanaticism and provide hope for a better future.

That was the idea.

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 10:04:57am

re: #66 Cato the Elder

A young cousin of mine is reading Hobbes in college and posted on Facebook last night about how she hates him and his "incorrect punctuation".

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up

quickjustice Tue, May 12, 2009 10:05:11am

re: #73 reine.de.tout

"Who needs college?" is an excellent question. In the liberal arts, college has become a vast wasteland. At this point, college is nothing more than a credential for a job. (As you can tell, I'm a fan of Charles Murray's!)

quickjustice Tue, May 12, 2009 10:06:40am

re: #71 calcajun

Both. In 1492, Ferdinand and Isabella united Spain, and kicked out the Muslims and the Jews. Christopher Columbus was merely a footnote at the time.

Kosh's Shadow Tue, May 12, 2009 10:07:10am

re: #67 taxfreekiller

Of some note to any posters who work in the health care industry, ins.
hospitals, billing, accounting, research etal.

the $10 trillion the leaders of your industry say they can save over the next 10 years.......

You will be cut, they are going to outsource every last job they possibly can to the third world wages, they are going to get govt. "assistance aka
bail out money to go high tech, computers, and new software to use less people ... your going to get cut. By your bosses or by the Govt. one way or the other, the two party evil money cult has control of health care on its plan page and it will not go away unless we take our county back.

Once they control your health care, they control you.

Just think, our new pharmaceutical research and testing, outsourced to China.
What can go wrong?
////

Cato the Elder Tue, May 12, 2009 10:07:17am

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You are educated, we aren’t. Without force, Iraqis cannot be civilized. Americans don’t use real force. You talk to people nicely and worry about human rights.

I completely agree with that statement and its going to come around and bite us in the ass.

In other words, we need to use "real force" - lots of it - to enable the Iraqis to be civilized. And stop worrying about human rights.

If that is the only way, I say we cut our losses and GTFO now.

Sabnen Tue, May 12, 2009 10:10:25am

re: #74 Ringo the Gringo

That was the idea.

And still a damned good one.

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 10:10:41am

re: #77 quickjustice

Ah, but was there not also a large number of Christian "neighbors" around Iberia at the time giving support to those monarchs? There was also a large indigenous Christian population already in Spain at the time that sped the transition (let's not get to the Inquisition just yet). Such factors are not present in modern Iraq.

I would love to see it succeed -- I just don't think history is on the side of the modernizers.

Joan Not of Arc Tue, May 12, 2009 10:13:01am

Can we assume Iraq is better off than under a dictator?
The biggest worry will be the religious divides. Christians have had to flee their homes. The divides between Shiite and Sunni are also great. If the lawmakers can can encompass the general good and have the will to enforce the law for all, things might work.
I can't say, really. Just my thoughts.

Earick Tue, May 12, 2009 10:16:28am

re: #69 calcajun

Thanks for the math class but I will stick to my poetic license!
As for what my ancestor knew about 'English freedoms', he was an 'indentured servant' forced to serve his English master for ten years. And, no, he did not volunteer to be a slave/servant. His choice was go to the new world as a servant or hang!
All his progeny applaud his choice!

Earick Tue, May 12, 2009 10:20:08am

re: #80 Sabnen

re: #74 Ringo the Gringo

That was the idea.

And still a damned good one.

Ditto!

calcajun Tue, May 12, 2009 10:21:39am

re: #83 Earick

Thanks for the math class but I will stick to my poetic license!
As for what my ancestor knew about 'English freedoms', he was an 'indentured servant' forced to serve his English master for ten years. And, no, he did not volunteer to be a slave/servant. His choice was go to the new world as a servant or hang!
All his progeny applaud his choice!

Mine, too. A lot of Scots lads (I'm Scot on my mom's side) came over that way. But many were educated to an extent--they were indentured in a number of clerical trades.

I always thought it would be interesting to see if there were any free-blacks of means from that era who bought a few indentured servants. A little historical irony.

Earick Tue, May 12, 2009 10:24:17am

re: #85 calcajun

LOL
Now that is worth a little research!
I've got to see what I can find!
Cool! A new project!

Thanks for the idea!

Cato the Elder Tue, May 12, 2009 10:25:20am

re: #75 calcajun

Youtube Video

DeafDog Tue, May 12, 2009 10:51:01am

Totten's piece is great because - as always - he reports facts from a civilian perspective. I really like what he does. Yon is great, too, but he's got more of a military background. It's interesting to compare the two.

To Yon - the military expert - the war is over. We won.

To Totten - the civilian - the war is ongoing.

Yon's perspective is more interesting, perhaps, in the middle of a battle. But Totten's perspective is better in Iraq's current state.

The decision to oust Saddam was a good one. No one could convince me otherwise.

Whether the decision to nation-build a democracy was a good one, however, has a more nuanced answer. It'll be a decade (at least) before we know whether it was worth the effort.

drcordell Tue, May 12, 2009 11:29:11am

Honestly, sometimes I think it would have been much more effective to simply embrace our previous strategy of alternately funneling both Iran and Iraq weapons and simply letting themselves wipe each other out. With Saddam still in the picture Iran was too preoccupied to concern themselves with Israel.

Achilles Tang Tue, May 12, 2009 11:39:20am

"The Thief of Baghdad" was no fiction, and the location not accidental. Even the rest of the Arab world, anecdotal as my comment may be, have always considered Iraqis to be born thieves.

funky chicken Tue, May 12, 2009 11:58:15am

re: #88 DeafDog

Totten's piece is great because - as always - he reports facts from a civilian perspective. I really like what he does. Yon is great, too, but he's got more of a military background. It's interesting to compare the two.

To Yon - the military expert - the war is over. We won.

To Totten - the civilian - the war is ongoing.

Yon's perspective is more interesting, perhaps, in the middle of a battle. But Totten's perspective is better in Iraq's current state.

The decision to oust Saddam was a good one. No one could convince me otherwise.

Whether the decision to nation-build a democracy was a good one, however, has a more nuanced answer. It'll be a decade (at least) before we know whether it was worth the effort.

can't ding

nikis-knight Tue, May 12, 2009 1:25:38pm

re: #63 sattv4u2

As someone who has been there about 2 1/2 years ago on business, I can assure you that they are. At the rate that they gobble up Western videos and music, consumer electronics and clothing!

That's a start, though it'd be nice if American culture embraced American values a bit more often. I'm sure it's still an improvement over al-jazeera, though.

Spy Mode Auto

This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Totten: The Future of Iraq

► LGF Headlines

► Top 10 Comments

► Bottom Comments

► Recent Comments

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud