EPA Head Flips, Flops

The Environmental Protection Agency seems to be backtracking on recent statements in favor of regulating CO2 emissions, after a document warning of economic damage was leaked: EPA Chief: CO2 Danger Finding May Not ‘Mean Regulation’.

WASHINGTON — The head of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said Tuesday a finding that greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide are a public health danger won’t necessarily lead to government regulation of emissions, an apparent about-face for the Obama administration.

The comments follow revelations of an administration document warning the EPA of potentially economically harmful consequences from an agency finding last month that proposes declaring greenhouse gases are a danger to the public. The document represents comments from various federal agencies, prepared by the Office of Management and Budget for EPA rulemaking.

An OMB spokesman said the document, however, doesn’t represent administration policy. Statements in the document, however, are at odds with the EPA’s reasoning for the “endangerment” proposal.

EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson has previously said such a decision “will indeed trigger the beginning of regulation of CO2,” echoing similar remarks by White House climate czar Carol Browner. But speaking before the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, Ms. Jackson said Tuesday an endangerment finding “does not mean regulation.”

An EPA spokeswoman wasn’t immediately able to explain the conflicting comments.

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522 comments

1 Fenway_Nation  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:49:19pm

No...please. I welcome increased energy costs in a slumping economy! I mean....what could possibly go wrong?

2 wiffersnapper  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:51:39pm

Boy Greenpeace must be pissed now, huh?

3 HelloDare  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:51:46pm

Damn. And we were so close to completely ruining the economy. /

4 acwgusa  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:52:35pm

OT Already, Sorry!


Federal R&D Fund, Reporter Job Program Needed to Save Journalism, Report Argues

Save Journalism? Bwahahahahahahahahahah!

5 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:53:21pm
6 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:53:30pm

By all means, send our economy further into the crapper--it's on Obama's watch now so bring on a bigger crisis.

7 freetoken  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:53:31pm

Changing from energy sources based on carbon, which a great deal of transportation and electricity generation use, will cost. About that there is no doubt.

The question is, and has always been, this: how much is the future worth in today's money?

In other words, decisions on how to approach energy policy are a function of the human tendency for discounting.

8 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:54:10pm
9 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:54:34pm

If the EPA, Congress, hell, most of Washington DC would just stop breathing, there'd be a whole lot less CO2 in the air.
/

10 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:55:59pm

re: #8 buzzsawmonkey

Didn't Boy Greenpeace record "Karma Khameleon?"

Just got released from jail he did. Looking hale and hearty enough to go and get into trouble again!

11 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:56:01pm

re: #4 acwgusa

OT Already, Sorry!


Federal R&D Fund, Reporter Job Program Needed to Save Journalism, Report Argues

Save Journalism? Bwahahahahahahahahahah!

How can you save something that's already dead?

12 notutopia  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:56:07pm

EPA Head Flips, Flops

I'm laughing really hard! I envision Lisa Jackson as a porcelain bobble head in the rear window of a 1957 Chevy.

:> O

13 HelloDare  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:56:26pm

This is going to cause a rise in polar bear suicides. No doubt about it.

14 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:56:29pm

Now that the gov't owns a car company CO2 is GOOD for YOU!

15 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:56:40pm

OT,

William Kristol says Obama may overrule Atty Gen. Eric Holder tomorrow, and NOT allow the pictures of UN interrogations to be released after all.

(at weeklystandard dot com's blog @ 5:13pm est)

16 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:57:08pm

Well, I need to make some CO2 as I head for a haircut and then home.
If I don't get my hair cut soon, one of my standard poodles will think he outranks me because he was more recently groomed.
/only somewhat sarc; the dog does get jealous if another of our dogs is groomed first

17 acwgusa  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:57:10pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

How can you save something that's already dead?

It's dead, Jim.

18 HelloDare  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:57:19pm

EPA Head does Pez imitation.

19 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:57:57pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

How can you save something that's already dead?

* * * *
Massive bailouts fix everything, haven't you noticed?

20 notutopia  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:57:58pm

re: #18 HelloDare

EPA Head does Pez imitation.

TOOO Funny!

21 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:58:08pm

feds:....it means that it may not mean what it says...checking the polls
I hate the feds

22 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:58:11pm

re: #18 HelloDare

EPA Head does Pez imitation.

Pe re z Hilton?

23 HelloDare  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:58:35pm

If only green plants could march in support of more CO2.

24 notutopia  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:59:35pm

re: #23 HelloDare

If only green plants could march in support of more CO2.

The price of his arugula salad will skyrocket!

25 BlueCanuck  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:59:50pm

re: #23 HelloDare

If only green plants could march in support of more CO2.

Oh no, it's the "Day of the Triffids"!

26 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:00:15pm

OT

$1,300 per hour for hybrid rental cars, spent on government program in Maryland.

Whereas, ZipCars charge $10 per hour for hybrid car rentals.

(from [Link: www.dcexaminer.com...] Virginia edition today)

27 Fenway_Nation  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:00:29pm

re: #15 alegrias

Christ....this fucking used car salesman in the White House. His idea of governing from the center is proposing something so unthinkably awful and disasterous (such as wounded vets paying for service related injuries out of pocket w/private insurance, cutting benefits to families of police killed in the line of duty) that when he backs away from the initial god-awful policy decision in favor of something marinally less shitty, he's touted as a 'moderate'....

28 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:00:41pm

Reality is a bitch.

29 Ojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:00:52pm

If you are going to talk about equal justice under law, (14th amendment), then you are going to have to tax me for breathing out, and you are going to have to tax a farmer when he limes the soil.


And what, pray tell, is the "danger" of CO2?

That we stave off the next ice age?

That we enhance the growth of plants, including cereal crops?

This is all madness, madness.

30 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:01:04pm

re: #26 alegrias

OT

$1,300 per hour for hybrid rental cars, spent on government program in Maryland.

Whereas, ZipCars charge $10 per hour for hybrid car rentals.

(from [Link: www.dcexaminer.com...] Virginia edition today)

Can't wait for socialized medicine!

31 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:01:21pm

OT

Dick Cheney predicts Israel will act against Iran.

(Fox Special Report with Brent Baer)

32 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:01:23pm

BO and his crew are bumbling around like a bunch of stoned frat boys and the public seems okay with it....he will hit the wall sooner or later

33 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:01:35pm

re: #25 BlueCanuck

Oh no, it's the "Day of the Triffids"!

Or the Trouble with Tribbles
[Link: www.cbs.com...]

34 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:01:37pm

re: #8 buzzsawmonkey

Didn't Boy Greenpeace record "Karma Khameleon?"

35 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:02:22pm

re: #31 alegrias

OT

Dick Cheney predicts Israel will act against Iran.

(Fox Special Report with Brent Baer)

so does albusteve...they have to

36 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:02:24pm

re: #32 albusteve

BO and his crew are bumbling around like a bunch of stoned frat boys and the public seems okay with it....he will hit the wall sooner or later

You can fool some of the people some of the time....

37 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:02:32pm

re: #25 BlueCanuck

Oh no, it's the "Day of the Triffids"!

You and I may be the only two that remember that.

38 mattm  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:02:46pm

re: #14 sattv4u2

Now that the gov't owns a car company CO2 is GOOD for YOU!

With GM, about half of the cars that make money are trucks and SUV's. If the 0ne want's them to succeed and therefore make himself look good, he will have some serious issues.

39 BingoBunny  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:03:36pm

I love this... LOVE IT.. B ho has finally hit a wall on spending

/"Gazillions for Green?.. uh whats a Gazillion?" Pres, Obama

40 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:03:38pm

re: #32 albusteve

BO and his crew are bumbling around like a bunch of stoned frat boys and the public seems okay with it....he will hit the wall sooner or later

FTFY

What are we going to do then?

41 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:03:49pm

re: #36 HoosierHoops

You can fool some of the people some of the time....

it really is a circus...lets just hope few lives are lost to his bs...he's a killer all right

42 BlueCanuck  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:04:06pm

re: #37 Son of the Black Dog

Never seen the movie, but I did read the book.

/read most of his stuff in high school on a whim.

43 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:04:07pm

re: #27 Fenway_Nation

Christ....this fucking used car salesman in the White House. His idea of governing from the center is proposing something so unthinkably awful and disasterous (such as wounded vets paying for service related injuries out of pocket w/private insurance, cutting benefits to families of police killed in the line of duty) that when he backs away from the initial god-awful policy decision in favor of something marinally less shitty, he's touted as a 'moderate'....

If what is getting proposed is really the center, then what do the fringes look like?

44 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:04:15pm

How come when ever I see an ACLU lawyer on TV, I want to punch his lights out?

45 Ojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:04:21pm

Pull my finger.

46 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:04:52pm
47 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:04:54pm

re: #29 Ojoe

If you are going to talk about equal justice under law, (14th amendment), then you are going to have to tax me for breathing out, and you are going to have to tax a farmer when he limes the soil.

And what, pray tell, is the "danger" of CO2?

That we stave off the next ice age?

That we enhance the growth of plants, including cereal crops?

This is all madness, madness.

Excess CO2 will trigger a feedback loop and we'll be over run with Kudzu.

48 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:04:58pm

re: #45 Ojoe

Pull my finger.

Then what?

49 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:05:23pm

re: #40 Truck Monkey

FTFY

What are we going to do then?

impeach the asshole?

50 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:05:49pm

OT

Jonathan Hafetz of the ACLU wants more of those old Abu Ghreib-type pictures released so Americans can discuss whether this was all Bush's fault, instead of a few bad apples' actions.

Hafetz looks like a little Napoleon, down to the hair curls around his balding pate.

51 Ojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:06:15pm

re: #48 Truck Monkey

Frip, tax my ass

52 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:06:19pm

re: #46 buzzsawmonkey

Why the hell do I keep getting "embedding disabled by request" on every vid posted here?

Does this happen to anyone else?

yes...I have no clue

53 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:06:24pm

re: #29 Ojoe

If you are going to talk about equal justice under law, (14th amendment), then you are going to have to tax me for breathing out, and you are going to have to tax a farmer when he limes the soil.

And what, pray tell, is the "danger" of CO2?

That we stave off the next ice age?

That we enhance the growth of plants, including cereal crops?

This is all madness, madness.

The earth was warmer than now a few centuries ago, and Europe thrived as a result, yet going back to that is bad?

54 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:06:33pm

re: #44 Nevergiveup

How come when ever I see an ACLU lawyer on TV, I want to punch his lights out?

Because you are a sane and reasonable person.

55 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:07:02pm
56 Ojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:07:15pm

re: #47 JCM

Maybe Kudzu is sequestering carbon and you can get the Gov't to pay you for it.

57 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:07:31pm

re: #49 albusteve

impeach the asshole?

This is worse than Jimmy Carter. Forget about JC part duex. He won't be impeached, unfortunately based on what the congressional make up is. A lot of the things this grifter is doing are going to be exceedingly hard to repeal.

58 rhino2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:07:53pm

re: #53 FurryOldGuyJeans

The earth was warmer than now a few centuries ago, and Europe thrived as a result, yet going back to that is bad?

Clearly people drove too much back then.


/

59 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:07:58pm

re: #27 Fenway_Nation

Lessons well learned from past famous democrats

I remember when I was younger back in Boston. the mayor at that time (Kevin White) would really really want a 6% property tax increase. What he would do was "leak" that the City Council was recommending a 10% tax hike. White would bluster how he was going to council meetings fighting tooth and nail for the citizens of Boston. Then with great fanfare it would be announced that Mayor White had saved the taxpayers 4% by compromising with the council for "only" a 6% tax hike!

60 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:08:19pm

re: #37 Son of the Black Dog

You and I may be the only two that remember that.

I remember it. There was a pretty good BBC miniseries with it a few years back too.

61 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:08:35pm

re: #50 alegrias

OT

Jonathan Hafetz of the ACLU wants more of those old Abu Ghreib-type pictures released so Americans can discuss whether this was all Bush's fault, instead of a few bad apples' actions.

Hafetz looks like a little Napoleon, down to the hair curls around his balding pate.

He's not Napoleon; Bonaparte knew how to fight. All the ACLU can do is litigate.

62 Occasional Reader  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:08:40pm

Boy, am I tired.

Anyway.

Five "Men" Convicted in Sears Tower Attack Plot

One manages to glean from the article that what they all had in common (besides being men) was that they were... Methodist, I think. No, wait... Hindu? Something like that.

63 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:17pm

White House climate czar Carol Browner...

is an Al Gore plant.

64 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:29pm

Obama Seeks Supreme Court Pick Shaped By His Experience

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

If you read the article, you can almost picture the AP writer masturbating and coming as he/she wrote it.

65 HelloDare  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:32pm

re: #45 Ojoe

Pull my finger.

That's methane.

66 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:35pm

re: #62 Occasional Reader

Boy, am I tired.

Anyway.

Five "Men" Convicted in Sears Tower Attack Plot

One manages to glean from the article that what they all had in common (besides being men) was that they were... Methodist, I think. No, wait... Hindu? Something like that.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

67 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:43pm

re: #56 Ojoe

Maybe Kudzu is sequestering carbon and you can get the Gov't to pay you for it.

I get exclusive rights for federal grants for ensuring the spread!

I'll be rich!

68 Occasional Reader  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:43pm

re: #55 buzzsawmonkey

...and the mome raths abu ghraib...

Now I'm hungry for a snicker-snack.

69 nines09  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:50pm

This just in...Life leads to death. Film at 11. Back to you.

70 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:10:11pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

He's not Napoleon; Bonaparte knew how to fight. All the ACLU can do is litigate.

Nothing but little fucking ankle biters.

71 Ojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:10:27pm

re: #65 HelloDare

Greenhouse gas also.

72 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:10:29pm

If the EPA existed 100 years ago, they would have promoted the new "horseless carriage technology" by shooting all the horses.

73 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:10:55pm

re: #69 nines09

This just in...Life leads to death. Film at 11. Back to you.

Nobody gets out alive

74 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:16pm

re: #65 HelloDare

That's methane.

75 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:24pm

re: #73 HoosierHoops

Nobody gets out alive

I plan on living forever,,,, so far, so good!

76 Occasional Reader  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:33pm

So, do I do the semi-obligatory business social stuff, despite being a near zombie (no offense, zombie) after an overnight flight? Or make up some flimsy excuse and beg off?

77 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:41pm

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

Because you are a sane and reasonable person.

Well that can't be the reason. Just ask my wife?

78 HelloDare  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:43pm

re: #62 Occasional Reader

Boy, am I tired.

Anyway.

Five "Men" Convicted in Sears Tower Attack Plot

One manages to glean from the article that what they all had in common (besides being men) was that they were... Methodist, I think. No, wait... Hindu? Something like that.

They were Scottish Methodists. But since they were terrorist, they weren't really Scottish.

79 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:54pm

re: #60 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I remember it. There was a pretty good BBC miniseries with it a few years back too.

Actually, if there's one group where everybody has seen "Day of the Triffids", it's probably this crowd.

80 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:55pm

re: #72 Alouette

If the EPA existed 100 years ago, they would have promoted the new "horseless carriage technology" by shooting all the horses.

But first the Federal Gubmint would have come up with a program to feed and care for these horses and bail out the buggy whip manufacturers.

81 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:11:59pm

re: #64 Nevergiveup

Obama Seeks Supreme Court Pick Shaped By His Experience

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

If you read the article, you can almost picture the AP writer masturbating and coming as he/she wrote it.

"Shaped by His Experience", eh? Gonna get a lying vote stealing community organizer to be a Justice?

82 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:12:27pm

re: #70 FurryOldGuyJeans

Nothing but little fucking ankle biters.

intimidation/blackmail keeps the coffers full...they do far more harm than good with their righteous zeal

83 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:12:35pm
84 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:12:38pm

re: #63 Son of the Black Dog

White House climate czar Carol Browner...

is an Al Gore plant.

re: #63 Son of the Black Dog

White House climate czar Carol Browner...

is an Al Gore plant.

* * * *
It's no secret Obama has surrounded himself with Clinton & Gore democrat retreads, or democrats-in-the-wings. They never really left Washington, but were just salivating, "Biden" their time, to get back in the saddle again.

Obama's people are same as they every were. We KNEW this a priori!

85 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:12:59pm

re: #74 JCM

That second blast looks to be the type that one would have needed to wipe after delivering.

86 opnion  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:13:14pm

re: #50 alegrias

OT

Jonathan Hafetz of the ACLU wants more of those old Abu Ghreib-type pictures released so Americans can discuss whether this was all Bush's fault, instead of a few bad apples' actions.

Hafetz looks like a little Napoleon, down to the hair curls around his balding pate.

There was a time that I thought that the ACLU had one client , the Constitution. That was a long time ago.
They are a radical group of Leftie lawyers who are completely irresponsible. Does anybody believe that releasing more photos won't make life more difficult for our troops?

87 Occasional Reader  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:13:18pm

re: #79 Son of the Black Dog

Actually, if there's one group where everybody has seen "Day of the Triffids", it's probably this crowd.

I have both seen the movie, and seen a bumper sticker on a car that read "I Brake For Triffids".

88 goddessoftheclassroom  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:13:18pm

re: #55 buzzsawmonkey

...and the mome raths abu ghraib...

As always, very clever--and I'm not just jabberibg.

Good evening, Lizards.

89 itellu3times  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:13:31pm

All CO2 molecules must have a license tag.

90 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:13:38pm

re: #81 FurryOldGuyJeans

"Shaped by His Experience", eh? Gonna get a lying vote stealing community organizer to be a Justice?

If you read the article, he is going to nominate someone ( read female ) who "gets it"? "Gets it"....is that a legal term?

91 HelloDare  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:14:17pm

re: #74 JCM

Funny but I think it's fake.

92 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:14:19pm

re: #75 sattv4u2

I plan on living forever,,,, so far, so good!

Just wait for the Obama tax plan to progressively tax you more for every year you live.

93 Occasional Reader  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:14:33pm

In any event, I must head to the hotel to at least close my eyes for 15 minutes, then throw myself in the pool to wake up.

Later.

94 Raiderdan  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:14:41pm

acgwusa. The liberal journos won't rest until they have another publicly-funded BBC-clone to go with their NPR. Unaccountable, biased-as-hell, and funded by tax dollars. Like I said, its a liberal journos wet dream.

Like I said. "Fairness doctrine" under the guise of localism or "diversity" in the first term to keep the MSM on board through 2012. Then add the cake-topper, an American version of the BBC.

95 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:14:55pm

re: #76 Occasional Reader

So, do I do the semi-obligatory business social stuff, despite being a near zombie (no offense, zombie) after an overnight flight? Or make up some flimsy excuse and beg off?


* * * *

OR, you're a social charmer, get out there & business network like you mean it, for those of us who aren't working. It might pay off in future.

C'mon, step away from the PC.

96 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:15:09pm

re: #90 Nevergiveup

If you read the article, he is going to nominate someone ( read female ) who "gets it"? "Gets it"....is that a legal term?

He was on the Harvard Law Review, so I guess it is now.

97 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:16:10pm

re: #81 FurryOldGuyJeans

"Shaped by His Experience", eh? Gonna get a lying vote stealing community organizer to be a Justice?

“We need somebody who’s got the heart — the empathy — to recognize what it’s like to be a young teenage mom, the empathy to understand what it’s like to be poor or African-American or gay or disabled or old,” he said. “And that’s the criteria by which I’ll be selecting my judges.”
Barak Obama Speaking to Planned Parenthood.

Rule of Law?
Fuck that dead white man shit.

98 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:16:13pm

re: #76 Occasional Reader

So, do I do the semi-obligatory business social stuff, despite being a near zombie (no offense, zombie) after an overnight flight? Or make up some flimsy excuse and beg off?

Man up OR! I got flown into Europe once on a red eye..They picked me up at 7:30am on a weekday..and expected results by 5pm..
It only took 4 days but that's not my problem...Take me to my Hotel and hope for the best the next day...But Nnnnnoooooo! LOL
/Finally I get in a SNL reference here

99 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:16:14pm

re: #92 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just wait for the Obama tax plan to progressively tax you more for every year you live.

in direct conflict with his health care plan...

100 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:16:56pm

re: #86 opnion

There was a time that I thought that the ACLU had one client , the Constitution. That was a long time ago.
They are a radical group of Leftie lawyers who are completely irresponsible. Does anybody believe that releasing more photos won't make life more difficult for our troops?

The ACLU was founded by Communists - front people for Stalin's Soviet Union.

101 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:17:03pm

re: #91 HelloDare

Funny but I think it's fake.

So do I but appropriate for the moment.

102 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:17:10pm

re: #90 Nevergiveup

If you read the article, he is going to nominate someone ( read female ) who "gets it"? "Gets it"....is that a legal term?

I really do wonder if there are any restrictions to his appointing Michelle.

/ now THAT is one scary thought.

103 opnion  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:17:30pm

re: #96 FurryOldGuyJeans

He was on the Harvard Law Review, so I guess it is now.

He did say that he would make government "cool" again.

104 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:17:47pm

re: #102 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really do wonder if there are any restrictions to his appointing Michelle.

/ now THAT is one scary thought.

Well, she certainly has the arms for it!

105 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:18:42pm

re: #90 Nevergiveup

If you read the article, he is going to nominate someone ( read female ) who "gets it"? "Gets it"....is that a legal term?

Oprah, I keep tellin yah, Oprah!

106 Diamond Bullet  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:18:45pm

I saw a Kia Sportage yesterday with two bumper stickers: an "Obama/Biden" sticker and a "Think Green" sticker. This Sportage was a V6 SUV that gets about 15 mpg in the city, and rated about an 8.5/10 on the Paris Hilton Eyesore Scale. Many Sportages are manufactured outside the country and transported here on massive, fuel-guzzling car carrier ships that take time out of their 24/7 fleet operations only to scrape mangled right whales off their bows. Needless to say, I can only take this sighting as some sort of microcosm of what passes for window seat environmentalism by our liberal overlords, whereby previously unacceptable things like fume-spewing SUVs are now acceptable as long as they are formally approved of and anointed by The One. Maybe utilities should take the hint and put Obama bumper stickers on each smokestack.

107 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:18:58pm

OT
hahahah, Geithner wants a BI-partisan commission to SAVE Social Security & Medicare. Both programs are in CRISIS today. What else is new with this administration.

Can't let these good crises go to waste. And we know how bi-partisan are Obama's plans.

Like the Bailout Plan Pelosi wrote for Obama that no one saw before voting for it.

108 opnion  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:20:03pm

re: #100 Son of the Black Dog

The ACLU was founded by Communists - front people for Stalin's Soviet Union.

Yes it was & the MSM conveniently omits that little tid bit.
They also forget to mention that BHO was a Community Organizer in a Saul Alinsky inspired organization. They just know that we can't handle too much info.

109 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:20:12pm

re: #105 brookly red

Oprah, I keep tellin yah, Oprah!

Oprah: It’s Great to Have a Private Jet

110 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:21:40pm

re: #94 Raiderdan

acgwusa. The liberal journos won't rest until they have another publicly-funded BBC-clone to go with their NPR. Unaccountable, biased-as-hell, and funded by tax dollars. Like I said, its a liberal journos wet dream.

Like I said. "Fairness doctrine" under the guise of localism or "diversity" in the first term to keep the MSM on board through 2012. Then add the cake-topper, an American version of the BBC.

* * * *
Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Like Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, made private profits, but stuck the public with the bills.

NO THANKS, John Kerry. No more bailouts for dying industries.

111 Ojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:22:39pm

re: #90 Nevergiveup

"Gets it" means that O really thinks that if you don't think like he does, you are wrong.

This is really bad.

112 gnargtharst  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:22:41pm

Thank goodness. I've been holding my greath ever since the original ruling.

[exhales CO2]

113 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:22:45pm

re: #107 alegrias

OT
hahahah, Geithner wants a BI-partisan commission to SAVE Social Security & Medicare. Both programs are in CRISIS today. What else is new with this administration.

Can't let these good crises go to waste. And we know how bi-partisan are Obama's plans.

Like the Bailout Plan Pelosi wrote for Obama that no one saw before voting for it.

How about this? Let people opt out. I wont contribute and I wont ask to be enrolled in them either. Give me back my cash and we'll call it even.

114 opnion  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:23:24pm

re: #105 brookly red

Oprah, I keep tellin yah, Oprah!

Can you imagine Oprah sparing with a lawyer at the Supreme Court?
I think that it would be more like an interview & she would steer the conversation, so that she could have an "I too moment"
"Counselor, I too was a victim of a contaminated water supply."

115 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:24:34pm

re: #113 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How about this? Let people opt out. I wont contribute and I wont ask to be enrolled in them either. Give me back my cash and we'll call it even.

DING DING DING DING. We have a winna here!

/not gonna happen in my lifetime

116 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:25:52pm

re: #114 opnion

Can you imagine Oprah sparing with a lawyer at the Supreme Court?
I think that it would be more like an interview & she would steer the conversation, so that she could have an "I too moment"
"Counselor, I too was a victim of a contaminated water supply."

victim of transfats...

117 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:26:32pm

FDA Blasts General Mills Over Cheerios Claim
Cereal Makers Scolded Because Claim Of Lowering Cholesterol 10 Percent In Month Makes It A "Drug"

Company Fires Back: This Is About Language, Not Science

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

Over regulation. Over Government, and over out!

118 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:26:35pm

I'm still kinda curious where Florida lizards weigh in on the Crist vs. Rubio primary in Florida....

119 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:26:57pm

re: #116 brookly red

victim of transfats...

FTFY?

120 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:27:14pm

From Drudge:

FAA Approves Stimulus Funds for Murtha Airport...

121 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:27:48pm

re: #120 Nevergiveup

From Drudge:

FAA Approves Stimulus Funds for Murtha Airport...

two words...RICCO

122 opnion  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:28:05pm

re: #116 brookly red

victim of transfats...

There was a morning DJ in Chicago who used to have callers report Oprah "land" sightings. They would report that thay saw her at Hamburger Hamlet chowing down, etc. It was funny

123 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:28:36pm

re: #117 Nevergiveup

FDA Blasts General Mills Over Cheerios Claim
Cereal Makers Scolded Because Claim Of Lowering Cholesterol 10 Percent In Month Makes It A "Drug"

Company Fires Back: This Is About Language, Not Science

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

Over regulation. Over Government, and over out!

* * * * *
Meanwhile they're ready to legalize POT!

What's worse, a bowl of Cheerios or potsmoking?

Obama's Feds are high on power.

124 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:28:36pm

re: #120 Nevergiveup

From Drudge:

FAA Approves Stimulus Funds for Murtha Airport...

can we cry rape yet?

125 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:29:06pm
126 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:29:44pm

re: #123 alegrias

* * * * *
Meanwhile they're ready to legalize POT!

What's worse, a bowl of Cheerios or potsmoking?

Obama's Feds are high on power.

dunno....lets light up a bowl of Cheerios and do a study

127 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:29:46pm

re: #121 albusteve

two words...RICCO

Is that the commercial for the Swiss throat lozenges?


" Riiiiiiicccccccoooo Law"

128 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:29:49pm
129 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:30:14pm

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

Folks talking about Ms. Justice Bernardine Dohrn?

I know that the Teleprompter Jesus is full of himself, but not this full.

130 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:30:49pm

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

Folks talking about Ms. Justice Bernardine Dohrn?

Justice Lynn Stewart?

131 TedStriker  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:30:55pm

re: #38 mattm

With GM, about half of the cars that make money are trucks and SUV's. If the 0ne want's them to succeed and therefore make himself look good, he will have some serious issues.

Nah, if GM (and Chrysler, for that matter) go tits up or seriously contract their operations (to the detriment of the UAW), Dear Leader will exclaim "I tried to save them, but they wouldn't listen to me!" and pile all the blame elsewhere (such as the executives and secured creditors).

132 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:31:34pm

re: #107 alegrias

OT
hahahah, Geithner wants a BI-partisan commission to SAVE Social Security & Medicare. Both programs are in CRISIS today. What else is new with this administration.

Can't let these good crises go to waste. And we know how bi-partisan are Obama's plans.

Like the Bailout Plan Pelosi wrote for Obama that no one saw before voting for it.

Bi-partisan commissions are what got us into this mess.
Dole Commission anyone?

Republicans shouldn't let Obama, Geithner, and Co. off the hook.
Let the Democrats own this one.

133 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:31:38pm

re: #118 Thanos

I'm still kinda curious where Florida lizards weigh in on the Crist vs. Rubio primary in Florida....

* * * *
I'm not Floridian, but for what it's worth:

Gov. Christ's fake mantan is disturbing. He's limpwristed when it comes to the bailout, flirting with Obama for approval. Ughhhh. He can't wait to hang out in Washington and party.

Rubio is young and others have pointed out, may have creationism quotes that can be used against him.

But Rubio is definitely more attractive & energetic & a workhorse than the odd dissipated Gov. Christ.

134 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:31:50pm

re: #127 Thanos

Is that the commercial for the Swiss throat lozenges?

" Riiiiiiicccccccoooo Law"

It's Italian...get it?

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:31:52pm

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

Folks talking about Ms. Justice Bernardine Dohrn?

People got any thoughts about the actual lists being circulated?

136 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:31:54pm
137 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:32:03pm

I heard a great line on Fox news from someone objecting to a film being shown in public schools that condemns capitalist consumerism as the creator of "toxic stuff".
"Wealthier is healthier."

138 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:32:28pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

People got any thoughts about the actual lists being circulated?

Yeah, I am sure I hate them all.

139 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:32:33pm

Wow, getting timeouts to Google...

140 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:32:42pm

re: #136 buzzsawmonkey

Naaaaah. She's got cancer, and will soon be gone. If Obama is going to appoint someone, he's going to want them to stick around a while.

Justice Sarah Silverman

141 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:33:08pm

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

Folks talking about Ms. Justice Bernardine Dohrn?

* * * *
Hey, she worked at Michelle Obama's law firm, what's not to like?

142 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:33:13pm

re: #136 buzzsawmonkey

Naaaaah. She's got cancer, and will soon be gone. If Obama is going to appoint someone, he's going to want them to stick around a while.

Justice Garafalo?

143 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:33:34pm
144 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:33:51pm

re: #142 Truck Monkey

Justice Garafalo?

But she is stupid?

145 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:33:52pm

re: #133 alegrias

Crist's hairdo in a landslide...bet a fiver

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:34:19pm

re: #137 IslandLibertarian

I heard a great line on Fox news from someone objecting to a film being shown in public schools that condemns capitalist consumerism as the creator of "toxic stuff".
"Wealthier is healthier."

True. But also true that wealthier mysteriously doesn't live in the part of town where the smell of processing chemical goop wafts through the air.

Is 'toxic stuff' a technical term?

147 Truck Monkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:35:00pm

re: #144 Nevergiveup

But she is stupid?

She could match her candle wattage with the dummycraps on crapital hill.

148 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:35:19pm

re: #123 alegrias

* * * * *
Meanwhile they're ready to legalize POT!

What's worse, a bowl of Cheerios or potsmoking?

Obama's Feds are high on power.

hey man, a joint & a few bowls of O's can lower your, uh your... uh colest, uh colest-o, uhhh, it's good for your heart man.

149 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:35:24pm

re: #107 alegrias

OT

Can't let these good crises go to waste. And we know how bi-partisan are Obama's plans.

Seriously. Someone (maybe that ABC guy) needs to call this administration on their whole "crises" mentality. I'd like it asked if Rahm's quip is Administration policy.

150 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:35:30pm

Chief Justice Matt Damon

151 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:35:33pm

Board Meeting at GM -

"NO, you cant build an electric car and sell it for 40,000.
NOBODY is going to buy it in this economy"

152 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:36:17pm

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But also true that wealthier mysteriously doesn't live in the part of town where the smell of processing chemical goop wafts through the air.

Is 'toxic stuff' a technical term?

I'm not sure. But there have been numerous studies showing that economic wealth is positively correlated with economic status. Financial stress generates problems of its own.

153 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:36:18pm

re: #148 brookly red

hey man, a joint & a few bowls of O's can lower your, uh your... uh colest, uh colest-o, uhhh, it's good for your heart man.

Personally I always went for the cold ravioli right outa the can?

154 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:36:19pm

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

Folks talking about Ms. Justice Bernardine Dohrn?

what yu talkin bout buzz?

155 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:36:25pm

IN the Florida Crist vs. Rubio race it appears that Marco Rubio is the Discovery Institute candidate of choice:

Except, of course, that there is no peace. While conservative FL legislator Marti Coley “applauded” the Board’s decision as “inclusive of a variety of viewpoints” (just as many as one can reasonably have about gravity), the Speaker of the State House of Representatives, Marco Rubio (predictably, a Republican), is not happy. Rubio wants to introduce -- oh novel idea -- a bill to mandate that science teachers can finally present to their pupils unspecified (so not to alert the Supreme Court) “criticisms of evolution.”

[Link: www.scientificblogging.com...]

156 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:36:36pm
157 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:36:39pm

okay...I just smoked a joint of Cheerios...
a my cholesterol crashed
b I'm faster than a speeding bullet

158 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:37:54pm

re: #153 Nevergiveup

Personally I always went for the cold ravioli right outa the can?

I like Spaghetti O's cold, right out of the can, really.

159 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:38:05pm

re: #157 albusteve

okay...I just smoked a joint of Cheerios...
a my cholesterol crashed
b I'm faster than a speeding bullet

Took care of the munchies though, didn't it?

160 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:38:24pm
161 J.S.  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:38:39pm

Maybe the EPA is getting ready for Copenhagen (which is supposed to be replacing the Kyoto Protocol)..

162 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:38:40pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

People got any thoughts about the actual lists being circulated?


Betty Boop?

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:38:43pm

re: #138 Nevergiveup

Yeah, I am sure I hate them all.

Kagan's name seems to be popping up most frequently.

164 VioletTiger  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:38:45pm

re: #113 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How about this? Let people opt out. I wont contribute and I wont ask to be enrolled in them either. Give me back my cash and we'll call it even.


I'm with you there.
But it will never happen because they need to producers to hold up the system.

165 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:38:46pm

re: #159 vxbush

Took care of the munchies though, didn't it?

Chocolate Cheerios?....hmmm

166 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:39:19pm

Rubio's going to run as a SoCon in FiCon clothing... more on him here:

[Link: blogs.tampabay.com...]

167 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:39:35pm

re: #165 albusteve

Chocolate Cheerios?....hmmm

Oh, don't worry. Real Soon Now.™

168 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:40:18pm

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

chol any esterol
and the chances are good
the esterol will respond to you

seriously, I could use a date, fatty or otherwise

169 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:40:36pm

re: #152 vxbush

I'm not sure. But there have been numerous studies showing that economic wealth is positively correlated with economic status. Financial stress generates problems of its own.

Interesting correlation. Did it take a Federal grant to do that study?

/humor

170 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:40:48pm

re: #156 buzzsawmonkey

I wonder if any of the boy and girl geniuses who are habitating in the cabinet have ever taken a business administration class? Even an Accounting 101 class?

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:40:52pm

re: #152 vxbush

I'm not sure. But there have been numerous studies showing that economic wealth is positively correlated with economic status. Financial stress generates problems of its own.

Economic wealth is correlated with economic status? Do you mean economic status is correlated with health?

No argument. Being poor is bad for you on a lto of levels.

172 callahan23  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:40:54pm

re: #150 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Chief Justice Matt Damon

I give him credit for one thing alone: On German TV the reporter wanted him to diss GWB. Matt Damon only replied to say he would be there to only promote his new movie. And that was it with that subject. Needless to say the reporter was at a loss for words.

/ And he rocks as Jason Bourne

173 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:40:54pm

Bah, Rubio's got some funding, he's already got an Anti-Crist ad out on youtube and Crist just announced....

174 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:41:24pm

re: #169 Son of the Black Dog

Interesting correlation. Did it take a Federal grant to do that study?

/humor

No, but hey, they waste money on the weirdest studies. May as well waste some on this.

175 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:41:34pm

re: #144 Nevergiveup

But she is stupid?

exactly.

176 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:41:42pm

re: #166 Thanos

Rubio's going to run as a SoCon in FiCon clothing... more on him here:

[Link: blogs.tampabay.com...]


too many cons

177 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:42:13pm

Hrrmmm. This makes Rubio the antiCrist....

178 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:42:24pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

Economic wealth is correlated with economic status? Do you mean economic status is correlated with health?

No argument. Being poor is bad for you on a lto of levels.

LOL; sorry, gang, I'm tired. Yes, economic status is correlated positively to health. It is the strongest indicator of good health.

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:42:25pm

re: #162 Eowyn2

Betty Boop?

Scalia wouldn't be able to handle her boop-oop-a-doop.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:42:44pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

Scalia wouldn't be able to handle her boop-oop-a-doop.

But she would look adorable in the robes.

181 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:43:20pm

re: #170 Eowyn2

I wonder if any of the boy and girl geniuses who are habitating in the cabinet have ever taken a business administration class? Even an Accounting 101 class?

From what I've seen so far, the economic ignorance is staggering.

182 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:43:49pm

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

True. But also true that wealthier mysteriously doesn't live in the part of town where the smell of processing chemical goop wafts through the air.

Is 'toxic stuff' a technical term?

It is in the film.
The argument is a wealthier country has cleaner cities, longer life expectancy, better research and health care. The film promoters want a 3rd world "World".

183 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:43:51pm

re: #171 SanFranciscoZionist

Economic wealth is correlated with economic status? Do you mean economic status is correlated with health?

No argument. Being poor is bad for you on a lto of levels.

You CAN be too rich, too young, too thin.
I will never have that problem myself.

184 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:43:53pm
185 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:44:03pm

re: #177 Thanos

Hrrmmm. This makes Rubio the antiCrist....

Great, first rally, some photographer is going to get up in the rafters and say "It's all for you Rubio, ALL FOR YOU!" and hang herself

/

186 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:44:34pm

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

Scalia wouldn't be able to handle her boop-oop-a-doop.

I think Thomas would strangle her for her voice alone.

187 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:44:36pm

re: #184 buzzsawmonkey

Caviar is health food!

high in omegas...

188 TedStriker  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:44:44pm

re: #97 JCM

“We need somebody who’s got the heart — the empathy — to recognize what it’s like to be a young teenage mom, the empathy to understand what it’s like to be poor or African-American or gay or disabled or old,” he said. “And that’s the criteria by which I’ll be selecting my judges.”
Barak Obama Speaking to Planned Parenthood.

Rule of Law?
Fuck that dead white man shit.

As much as Rush, Hannity, and other "conservative" commentators have howled about judicial activism from lib judges in the past, the reality is that Dear Leader's judicial picks (for the SCOTUS and other federal judgeships) may well put past lib Donk appointments to shame (and not in a good way).

And for those of us who want judges to follow the rule of law and not make new law from the bench, that's a very bad scenario...

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:45:27pm

re: #184 buzzsawmonkey

Caviar is health food!

I remember a man, raised in the USSR, telling me how his mother used to tell the kids that when she was a young woman, during the Stalin years, she ate a can of caviar for breakfast every morning because it was all she could afford. The kids used to joke about it--poor mom, forced to survive on caviar!

190 Eowyn2  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:45:42pm

re: #181 Son of the Black Dog

From what I've seen so far, the economic ignorance is staggering.

"Counting Back Change" 101

191 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:46:00pm

re: #170 Eowyn2

I wonder if any of the boy and girl geniuses who are habitating in the cabinet have ever taken a business administration class? Even an Accounting 101 class?

Harvard dominates his cabinet.

192 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:46:19pm

re: #189 SanFranciscoZionist

I remember a man, raised in the USSR, telling me how his mother used to tell the kids that when she was a young woman, during the Stalin years, she ate a can of caviar for breakfast every morning because it was all she could afford. The kids used to joke about it--poor mom, forced to survive on caviar!

well you remember the deal with lobsters...

193 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:47:22pm

re: #191 JCM

Harvard dominates his cabinet.

The two most overrated things in life are home screwin' and a degree from Harvard.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:47:50pm

re: #192 brookly red

well you remember the deal with lobsters...

Laws against feeding your slaves too many to save money, weren't there?

195 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:49:09pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

Laws against feeding your slaves too many to save money, weren't there?

close, slaves ate what you gave em, servents could not be made to have lobster more than 3 times a week.

196 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:49:18pm

re: #15 alegrias

OT,

William Kristol says Obama may overrule Atty Gen. Eric Holder tomorrow, and NOT allow the pictures of UN interrogations to be released after all.

(at weeklystandard dot com's blog @ 5:13pm est)

Standards, we got standards, we got lots and lots of standards.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:50:20pm

re: #195 brookly red

close, slaves ate what you gave em, servents could not be made to have lobster more than 3 times a week.

Times change, fashions change.

198 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:51:50pm

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

Times change, fashions change.

But $500.00 sneakers are always in style.

199 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:51:51pm

23:51 Vatican retracts denial of pope`s Hitler Youth membership (Reuters)

When you can't keep your lies straight?

200 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:52:01pm
201 Miss Molly  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:52:24pm

I dread all the possible appointments to the Supreme Court coming from Obama because this is a person of deep anger and hostility to America with his far left socialist agenda to impose on all of us.

202 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:52:49pm

Had this occurred under McCain's watch it would have been headline news for media outlets.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the flip flop however they'll figure out a scheme on this to generate more tax revenue.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:53:02pm

re: #198 debutaunt

But $500.00 sneakers are always in style.

I woulda thought they'd go out of fashion pretty fast.

204 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:53:27pm
205 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:53:59pm

both caviar and lobster are way over rated as food...gimme a cut throat trout anyday...grilled over a fire with some salt and pepper

206 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:54:12pm

re: #201 Miss Molly

I dread all the possible appointments to the Supreme Court coming from Obama because this is a person of deep anger and hostility to America with his far left socialist agenda to impose on all of us.

don't worry, Marx is still dead & can't be seated...

207 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:54:36pm

re: #200 buzzsawmonkey

You've got to be careful that it hasn't spoiled: caviar emptor.

If not you'll roe the day.

208 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:54:46pm

re: #206 brookly red

don't worry, Marx is still dead & can't be seated...

No, but we could easily have a stepchild of Saul Alinksy.

209 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:55:07pm
210 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:55:13pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

I woulda thought they'd go out of fashion pretty fast.

Absolutely. Nice to be able to afford something so fashionably silly.

211 Miss Molly  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:55:58pm

brookly red -- Thanks as that makes me feel better now that Obama can't put old Karl Marx on the Supreme Court. Actually I am more worried that Obama might like Stalin a lot better than Karl.

212 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:56:07pm

OT - Obama to release interrogation photos

[Link: www.upi.com...]

213 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:56:14pm

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

Get your kicks on Trout 66.

Todd and Buzz lookin for that perfect fly

214 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:56:15pm

re: #205 albusteve

both caviar and lobster are way over rated as food...gimme a cut throat trout anyday...grilled over a fire with some salt and pepper

Golden trout, from a high mountain lake caught at dawn, over the campfire for breakfast.

215 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:56:20pm

re: #208 vxbush

No, but we could easily have a stepchild of Saul Alinksy.

he can't nominate himself.

216 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:56:30pm

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

Get your kicks on Trout 66.

While listening to Sushi and the Banshees.

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:56:38pm

re: #199 Nevergiveup

23:51 Vatican retracts denial of pope`s Hitler Youth membership (Reuters)

When you can't keep your lies straight?

They were denying it? Why? The man was born in Bavaria in 1927. End of story.

218 pat  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:56:53pm

The fact that a government scientist can declare atmospheric concentrations od CO2 a health hazard is beyond embarrassing. He or she will be remembered as a dolt, if remembered at all.

219 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:57:23pm

re: #205 albusteve

I had a grilled "brookie" a few nights ago, Onsen style.

220 pat  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:58:02pm

Trout is tasteless. Give a plate of Ahi sashimi any day.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:58:47pm

re: #210 debutaunt

Absolutely. Nice to be able to afford something so fashionably silly.

Not what I waste money on. I waste my money on books and perfume, when I have any.

222 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:59:05pm
223 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:59:15pm

re: #214 JCM

Golden trout, from a high mountain lake caught at dawn, over the campfire for breakfast.

yep...spear em with a stick....man food

224 JCM  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:59:40pm

Gotta run......

225 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:59:47pm

re: #211 Miss Molly

brookly red -- Thanks as that makes me feel better now that Obama can't put old Karl Marx on the Supreme Court. Actually I am more worried that Obama might like Stalin a lot better than Karl.

this would be funny if it wasn't so frinkin real.

226 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:00:02pm

re: #220 pat

Trout is tasteless. Give a plate of Ahi sashimi any day.

Trout is tasteless and filled with annoying bones. Last on my list.

227 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:00:03pm

re: #218 pat

The fact that a government scientist can declare atmospheric concentrations od CO2 a health hazard is beyond embarrassing. He or she will be remembered as a dolt, if remembered at all.

Man-made global warming is the biggest scientific hoax since Piltdown Man.

228 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:00:30pm

re: #220 pat

along with the trout, there was sashimi too...........oiishi!

229 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:00:31pm

re: #220 pat

Trout is tasteless. Give a plate of Ahi sashimi any day.

trout is tasteless?...hahaha...check into a tongue transplant

230 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:01:24pm

This is funny.


Detroit Mayor Throws First Brick In Glass-Breaking Ceremony For New Slum
231 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:02:05pm

re: #226 debutaunt

Trout is tasteless and filled with annoying bones. Last on my list.

Walleye from Wisc.
Nothing better IMHO

232 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:02:12pm
233 Miss Molly  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:02:20pm

brookly red --I well understand you fear and we are just at the beginning of all the things Obama will will wish to impose.

234 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:02:21pm

re: #226 debutaunt

Trout is tasteless and filled with annoying bones. Last on my list.


allow me to clean them for you Shirley

235 anchors_aweigh  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:02:47pm
government scientist

I just felt a chill.....

236 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:02:59pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

Not what I waste money on. I waste my money on books and perfume, when I have any.

Nah. Give me cool technology toys, any day.

237 Miss Molly  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:03:23pm

I love trout but there are times when only a Big Mac will do.

238 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:03:26pm

re: #229 albusteve

trout is tasteless?...hahaha...check into a tongue transplant

I love fish with flavor - wild salmon - there's fish!

239 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:03:28pm

re: #231 HoosierHoops

Walleye from Wisc.
Nothing better IMHO

you may be close to right...very close...walleye, whitefish, smallmouth....yep

240 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:03:57pm

re: #212 Walter L. Newton

OT - Obama to release interrogation photos

[Link: www.upi.com...]

Urh, Maybe not- He is "reconsidering" that.

241 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:04:07pm
242 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:04:17pm

re: #237 Miss Molly

I love trout but there are times when only a Big Mac will do.

True, quite true. But alas, it's off my list now. I seriously hate this wheat allergy sometimes.

243 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:04:21pm

re: #234 albusteve

allow me to clean them for you Shirley

hahahahaahahahah - deal!

244 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:06:20pm

re: #238 debutaunt

I love fish with flavor - wild salmon - there's fish!

I have to be right..I bought a cabin at lake Tomahawk, Wisc.
I live to fish there a month a year...

245 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:07:06pm

re: #244 HoosierHoops

I have to be right..I bought a cabin at lake Tomahawk, Wisc.
I live to fish there a month a year...

fishing is good for the sole

246 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:07:21pm
247 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:07:32pm

NEW YORK – You knew it was coming: Sarah Palin is ready to tell her side, agreeing to publish a memoir with HarperCollins. The book comes out in Spring 2010 — the year she is up for re-election.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Good for her.

248 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:07:39pm

re: #245 albusteve

fishing is good for the sole

HH does it for the halibut.

249 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:08:25pm

re: #233 Miss Molly

brookly red --I well understand you fear and we are just at the beginning of all the things Obama will will wish to impose.

*sigh*

250 quickjustice  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:09:10pm

What Obama is doing is perfectly rational. He needs billions of dollars to nationalize health care. A carbon tax is just the ticket for that. And thanks to Gore, a high percentage of he population believes that CO2 is killing the planet, and endangering our existence. It's the perfect political storm justifying much higher new taxes.

251 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:09:15pm

re: #246 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, so you're one of those people who likes fishes roomers....

fishstick joke in 10...9...8...

252 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:10:34pm

re: #250 quickjustice

What Obama is doing is perfectly rational. He needs billions of dollars to nationalize health care. A carbon tax is just the ticket for that. And thanks to Gore, a high percentage of he population believes that CO2 is killing the planet, and endangering our existence. It's the perfect political storm justifying much higher new taxes.

He's never going to get enough money to have health care *and* Social Security *and* balance the budget. He simply can't. I worry he's going to decide that it's time to raid the state and school pensions and 401K's. You know, because they'll do better with the government than on Wall Street.

253 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:10:36pm

re: #250 quickjustice

What Obama is doing is perfectly rational. He needs billions of dollars to nationalize health care. A carbon tax is just the ticket for that. And thanks to Gore, a high percentage of he population believes that CO2 is killing the planet, and endangering our existence. It's the perfect political storm justifying much higher new taxes.

Looks like they're mulling over a soft drink tax. I'm pretty sure that might be extended into other snack type foods.

254 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:10:44pm

re: #237 Miss Molly

I love trout but there are times when only a Big Mac will do.

Big Mac (kerel)

255 SFGoth  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:11:09pm

These clowns make the Bush admin look like it was a tight ship.

256 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:11:16pm

re: #253 Gus 802

Looks like they're mulling over a soft drink tax. I'm pretty sure that might be extended into other snack type foods.

As long as they keep their rotten commie fingers off my beer?

257 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:12:03pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

As long as they keep their rotten commie fingers off my beer?

not a chance in hell.

258 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:12:15pm

ugh ,,,, conundrum.

Boston Bruins game starts now
Boston Celtics starts in about an hour
I'm of work 50 minutes from now

Do I drive home (about a 45 minute commute) and miss the 2nd period of the Bruins and start of the Celtics

OR ,,

do I stay at work until halftime of the Celtics and then drive home missing some of the 2nd half and most likely the end of the Bruins game !?!?!?!

ggggaaahhhhhhhh

259 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:12:16pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

As long as they keep their rotten commie fingers off my beer?

Whatever happened with the beer tax in Oregon? I know that Oregon is often used as a model for other liberal policy decisions.

260 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:12:32pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

As long as they keep their rotten commie fingers off my beer?

the feds are on the march...they will take whatever you give up....choices

261 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:13:06pm

re: #258 sattv4u2

ugh ,,,, conundrum.

Boston Bruins game starts now
Boston Celtics starts in about an hour
I'm of work 50 minutes from now

Do I drive home (about a 45 minute commute) and miss the 2nd period of the Bruins and start of the Celtics

OR ,,

do I stay at work until halftime of the Celtics and then drive home missing some of the 2nd half and most likely the end of the Bruins game !?!?!?!

ggggaaahhhhhhhh

LaCrosse?

262 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:13:10pm

re: #259 Gus 802

Whatever happened with the beer tax in Oregon? I know that Oregon is often used as a model for other liberal policy decisions.

And when was the last time a team from Oregon won the World Series?

263 Timbre  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:13:16pm

re: #15 alegrias

OT,

William Kristol says Obama may overrule Atty Gen. Eric Holder tomorrow, and NOT allow the pictures of UN interrogations to be released after all.

(at weeklystandard dot com's blog @ 5:13pm est)

It's amazing what happens to a person when they get off the campaign trail and get all the inside information and a healthy dose of responsibility. Suddenly, truth starts coming into conflict with cheap promises.

264 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:13:46pm

soon you will need a license to buy fishsticks

265 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:13:46pm

re: #258 sattv4u2

ugh ,,,, conundrum.

Boston Bruins game starts now
Boston Celtics starts in about an hour
I'm of work 50 minutes from now

Do I drive home (about a 45 minute commute) and miss the 2nd period of the Bruins and start of the Celtics

OR ,,

do I stay at work until halftime of the Celtics and then drive home missing some of the 2nd half and most likely the end of the Bruins game !?!?!?!

ggggaaahhhhhhhh

I suppose staying at work and watching the games is out of the question.

266 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:13:47pm

re: #261 debutaunt

LaCrosse?

Im in Georgia ,, not Wisconsin!

oh , THAT lacrosse!

267 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:14:06pm

re: #258 sattv4u2

Leave work and drive to the nearest sports bar, have some "wings" and beer, enjoy.

268 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:14:13pm

re: #227 Son of the Black Dog

Man-made global warming is the biggest scientific hoax since Piltdown Man.

I disagree. It's one thing to be skeptical of political solutions to environmental problems (such as "cap and trade") but it is another thing to say global warming is a hoax.

269 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:14:24pm

Soda Tax Weighed to Pay for Health Care

Senate leaders are considering new federal taxes on soda and other sugary drinks to help pay for an overhaul of the nation's health-care system.

The taxes would pay for only a fraction of the cost to expand health-insurance coverage to all Americans and would face strong opposition from the beverage industry. They also could spark a backlash from consumers who would have to pay several cents more for a soft drink.

On Tuesday, the Senate Finance Committee is set to hear proposals from about a dozen experts about how to pay for the comprehensive health-care overhaul that President Barack Obama wants to enact this year. Early estimates put the cost of the plan at around $1.2 trillion. The administration has so far only earmarked funds for about half of that amount.

270 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:14:43pm

re: #265 vxbush

I suppose staying at work and watching the games is out of the question.

not out of the question ,, could be part of the solution

271 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:15:06pm

re: #264 albusteve

soon you will need a license to buy fishsticks

soon you will need a license ration card to buy fishsticks

272 Miss Molly  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:15:07pm

I do not see how Obama can raise taxes to the "beyond pain" limit and still fund national health care, social security because that won't be enough money to fund everything. And, with a carbon tax added on top of that the economy will tank well below where it is now.

273 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:15:08pm

re: #262 Nevergiveup

And when was the last time a team from Oregon won the World Series?

In an imaginary year. //

274 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:15:11pm

re: #267 IslandLibertarian

Leave work and drive to the nearest sports bar, have some "wings" and beer, enjoy.

problem with that is 6 a.m, comes early !

275 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:15:59pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

problem with that is 6 a.m, comes early !

Wings, beer and hockeyball.

276 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:16:16pm

re: #271 brookly red

soon you will need a license ration card to buy fishsticks

just wait...they will funnel taxes on food until we will all be mining kelp...bet me

277 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:16:28pm

This is interesting.....
State reaches $60m subprime deal with Goldman Sachs

More than 700 Massachusetts homeowners struggling with subprime mortgages will have their monthly payments reduced - some by as much as 35 percent - as part of a $60 million settlement Attorney General Martha Coakley reached with Goldman Sachs Group Inc.

Goldman Sachs owns those homeowners' mortgages through subsidiaries and has agreed to rewrite the terms of their loans in order to stave off legal action by Coakley. The attorney general has been investigating the role investment banks played in promoting subprime mortgages that borrowers ultimately couldn't afford.


I suspect the John Galt crowd will flip out but it looks like a good thing to me.

278 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:17:35pm
279 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:17:35pm

re: #272 Miss Molly

I do not see how Obama can raise taxes to the "beyond pain" limit and still fund national health care, social security because that won't be enough money to fund everything. And, with a carbon tax added on top of that the economy will tank well below where it is now.

/self reliance & private property are such dirty things.

280 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:17:56pm

Think I'll leave at 8. Celtics won't start until about 8:10, so I'll only miss less than the 1st half and thre Bruins could be in between the 1st and 2nd period, so I won't miss much there either.

Home for the middle to end of both games!

281 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:18:27pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

This is interesting.....
State reaches $60m subprime deal with Goldman Sachs


I suspect the John Galt crowd will flip out but it looks like a good thing to me.

what good will it do if the principle remains the same?...need a calculator

282 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:18:56pm

Fascinating!

Social Security, Medicare dwindling in recession


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Social Security and Medicare are fading even faster under the weight of the recession, heading for insolvency years sooner than previously expected, the government warned Tuesday.

Medicare already is paying out more money than it receives, something that happened for the first time last year. And Social Security will be by 2016, a year sooner than had been projected, the trustees' annual report said.


...

More immediately, the trustees do not expect Social Security recipients to get cost-of-living increases in 2010 or 2011, something that hasn't happened since automatic adjustments were adopted in 1975. The Social Security Administration will set next year's cost-of-living adjustment in October, based on inflation over the previous year.


...

If inflation kicks in as expected, Grandma's check will by less dogfood than before.

And, she gets to wait in line for her angioplasty!

...

"The most effective entitlement reform measure will be a major health reform that helps bring down the growth rate of national health care spending," Geithner said.
283 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:19:16pm

re: #274 sattv4u2

6:00am shows up the same time every day......just don't over do the brew.......aside from that, I got nuthin'....

284 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:19:56pm

re: #278 buzzsawmonkey

Sea Kitten, and ye shall find...

how nutritious is dirt exactly?....say a hearty loam?

285 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:20:27pm

re: #282 Dar ul Harbarian

Fascinating!

Social Security, Medicare dwindling in recession

No COLA adjustment until after 2010.

I know what this means. SS taxes and self-employment tax will go up.

286 Miss Molly  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:20:35pm

brookly red -- I can't help but wonder if self reliance, private property and common sense have gone the way of the dinasaur and never to be seen again.

287 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:20:43pm

re: #276 albusteve

just wait...they will funnel taxes on food until we will all be mining kelp...bet me

well I am going to do some beer mining now... bbiab

288 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:20:46pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

OT - Season closer tomorrow - LOST - I don't know what time it all starts in your neck of the woods, but it's an hour recap show and then a two hour closer, total three hours of LOST.

289 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:20:54pm

re: #268 Liberal Classic

I disagree. It's one thing to be skeptical of political solutions to environmental problems (such as "cap and trade") but it is another thing to say global warming is a hoax.

OK, we disagree. I believe it's a hoax. The global warming discussion has passed from the realm of science to becoming a religion. Not a devout practitioner? No grant money for you, you climate change denier.

290 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:21:13pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

This is interesting.....
State reaches $60m subprime deal with Goldman Sachs


I suspect the John Galt crowd will flip out but it looks like a good thing to me.

Robbed Peter, paid off Paul. More stimulus, please! /Not

291 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:22:23pm

re: #281 albusteve

what good will it do if the principle remains the same?...need a calculator

The 75 year mortgage!

292 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:22:43pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

This is interesting.....
State reaches $60m subprime deal with Goldman Sachs


I suspect the John Galt crowd will flip out but it looks like a good thing to me.

I don't know about the John Galt crowd, but many people don't get that some money coming in from those houses is better than no money coming in from those houses.

293 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:23:06pm

re: #290 Russkilitlover

Robbed Peter, paid off Paul. More stimulus, please! /Not

so it takes 35% longer to pay off the loan at the same rate?....somebody is gonna make a killing....wtf?

294 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:23:08pm

re: #264 albusteve

soon you will need a license to buy fishsticks

Marriage licenses for gay fish!

295 UFO TOFU  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:23:18pm

re: #275 debutaunt

When it does come, just say to yourself "At least I'm not getting up at four."

296 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:24:19pm

re: #289 Son of the Black Dog

OK, we disagree. I believe it's a hoax. The global warming discussion has passed from the realm of science to becoming a religion. Not a devout practitioner? No grant money for you, you climate change denier.

It's not a hoax, what is no provable is if the effect it will have is next to nothing, or if it is some tragedy. The "religion" part belongs to those folk who want to predict the end of the world unless we pay tribute to Al Gore and his ilk.

But, no, it's not a hoax. Lizards here with more information can prove that for you if needed.

297 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:24:21pm

re: #291 Russkilitlover

The 75 year mortgage!

right....what's up with that?...who is getting a deal here?...

298 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:24:27pm

re: #290 Russkilitlover

Just think if the housing market were to rebound and home prices rocket upwards again. Who will be the fool?

299 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:24:58pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

This is interesting.....
State reaches $60m subprime deal with Goldman Sachs

I suspect the John Galt crowd will flip out but it looks like a good thing to me.

And so we use the legal power of the state to bludgeon one group of people into handing over money to a politically favored group of people.

300 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:25:30pm

re: #288 Walter L. Newton

Cool. A 3 hour marathon.

301 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:26:00pm

re: #293 albusteve

so it takes 35% longer to pay off the loan at the same rate?....somebody is gonna make a killing....wtf?

It's not like you don't have to sign a SHITLOAD of paperwork, disclaimers, notifications, acknowledgements, and disclosures when you EFFING buy a house! Gawd, I'm so sick of the whole spiel of poor, unknowing subprime homeowners......*spit* Greed, it's not just found in corporate offices.

302 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:26:12pm

Heh. You guys are pretty predictable.

303 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:26:17pm

re: #299 Son of the Black Dog

And so we use the legal power of the state to bludgeon one group of people into handing over money to a politically favored group of people.

in a sinking market it sounds like suicide for a morgage holder...maybe I'm stupid

304 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:27:25pm

re: #297 albusteve

right....what's up with that?...who is getting a deal here?...

Well, the government shovelled a ton of cash to Goldman, their CEO is an Obama advisor, sooooooooo, I dunno.....

305 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:27:25pm

re: #292 Thanos

I'm waiting for someone to propose big incentives for buying foreclosed homes. That should clean up the housing market pretty quick.

306 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:27:25pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Heh. You guys are pretty predictable.

That doesn't exactly sound like a compliment?

307 TedStriker  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:27:32pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Heh. You guys are pretty predictable.

As are you, KT...if only mass transit schedules were so precise.

308 Jim D  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:27:34pm

re: #289 Son of the Black Dog

Do you have evidence that funding has been denied to researchers skeptical of global warming?

309 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:27:50pm

re: #289 Son of the Black Dog

OK, we disagree. I believe it's a hoax. The global warming discussion has passed from the realm of science to becoming a religion. Not a devout practitioner? No grant money for you, you climate change denier.

It's no hoax. Furthermore, I find the your post to be similar in tone to creation scientists: "The evolution discussion has passed from the realm of science to becoming a religion. Not a devout practitioner? No grant money for you, you evolution denier."

310 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:27:59pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Heh. You guys are pretty predictable.

I just don't like welfare. I'm kinda conservative that way ;-}

311 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:28:26pm

re: #306 Nevergiveup

That doesn't exactly sound like a compliment?

In France it would be.

312 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:28:35pm

re: #258 sattv4u2

ugh ,,,, conundrum.

Boston Bruins game starts now
Boston Celtics starts in about an hour
I'm of work 50 minutes from now

Do I drive home (about a 45 minute commute) and miss the 2nd period of the Bruins and start of the Celtics

OR ,,

do I stay at work until halftime of the Celtics and then drive home missing some of the 2nd half and most likely the end of the Bruins game !?!?!?!

ggggaaahhhhhhhh

Satt..Although I keep up with highlights..I have never once in my life seen a hockey game..I don't considerate hockey a sport..Anytime you can get beat on a play..Pull your gloves off and knock the teeth out of your Opponate..Then it's either boxing or a controlled riot..
I want talent to win..Not who has the fastest right uppercut..
So watch Ball..The greatest Athletes in the world. just because you knocked your defenders teeth out is now seem to suddenly be a great skater and scorer..Bullshit.. I could hurt you and skate an hour in circles for the fun of it..
That is not a world class athlete..It's a thug with speed..Whoopie fricking doo..
/Don't ding me bro! but if you must...Leave the gloves on..I like my teeth

313 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:29:01pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Heh. You guys are pretty predictable.

Define "you guys." Does that include everyone. On the face of that statement it seems to include everyone. They say that when we see others that we are merely seeing a reflection of ourselves.

314 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:29:35pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Heh. You guys are pretty predictable.

economics is predictable...invented by....people!

315 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:29:44pm

re: #310 Russkilitlover

It's not welfare. It's a settlement. I'm guessing it would have been worse if they'd gone to court.

316 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:29:53pm

re: #288 Walter L. Newton

OT - Season closer tomorrow - LOST - I don't know what time it all starts in your neck of the woods, but it's an hour recap show and then a two hour closer, total three hours of LOST.

I set the TIVO...The recap will really help me

317 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:30:50pm

re: #305 Killgore Trout

I'm waiting for someone to propose big incentives for buying foreclosed homes. That should clean up the housing market pretty quick.

I made a similar deal with a tech supplier just the other day. The only way you could get 24X7X365 support is to buy their platinum support package which was crafted 10 years ago when tech could name the price and you had to pay. I cut it to a third and said "This is what we will pay or you just get time and materials from us and we'll risk the after hours stuff." They looked at the number of tickets we have after hours and jumped on the deal.

318 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:31:01pm

re: #315 Killgore Trout

It's not welfare. It's a settlement. I'm guessing it would have been worse if they'd gone to court.

how does it benefit morgage holders?...the article said little enough

319 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:31:32pm

re: #315 Killgore Trout

It's not welfare. It's a settlement. I'm guessing it would have been worse if they'd gone to court.

It's welfare. Out and out government support. 700 homeowners in Mass were too stupid to figure out that they couldn't afford the jacked up price of a home? BS. It's classic welfare and it stinks.

320 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:31:39pm

Parasitic flies turn fire ants into zombies

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

This is really cool!

321 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:31:46pm

re: #315 Killgore Trout

It's not welfare. It's a settlement. I'm guessing it would have been worse if they'd gone to court.

There are tons of banks jumping to do the same thing all on their own right now. Some money is better than no money every time.

322 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:31:48pm

re: #313 Gus 802

I really need to re-read Atlas Shrugs. They is an instinct that many conservatives have to side with big business. I've never really understood it but it's a pretty predictable phenomenon.

323 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:32:16pm

re: #299 Son of the Black Dog

And so we use the legal power of the state to bludgeon one group of people into handing over money to a politically favored group of people.

Killgore tends to come from the position of having little money to lose.

324 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:32:50pm

re: #320 Nevergiveup

Parasitic flies turn fire ants into zombies

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

This is really cool!

Truth is stranger than fiction. I can't wait to have some of those flies in my yard.

325 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:33:03pm

re: #316 HoosierHoops

I set the TIVO...The recap will really help me

I know some fans that it will help. The show has lost some viewership this season because of the strong time travel plot arc, even though there was hints that time travel played into the show all the way back in season three.

But, what's happening is the general viewer is not interested in trying to keep up with the heavy non-liner story telling technique.

This show, over 5 years have certainly separated the couch potatoes from the die hard sci-fi fans.

326 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:33:24pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I really need to re-read Atlas Shrugs. They is an instinct that many conservatives have to side with big business free markets. I've never really understood it but it's a pretty predictable phenomenon.

FTFY

327 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:33:38pm

re: #312 HoosierHoops

Respectfully, having played all sports as a kid, hockey is much more than fisticuffs skillwise, especially playoff hockey.

1) just try skating
2) now try it with all that equipment on
3) now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck
4) now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck while an opponent or three can bump into you as hard as they can
5)now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck while an opponent or three can bump into you as hard as they can while you try to shoot it into a goal protected by a guy that with HOS equipment on covers most of the net

328 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:34:02pm

re: #321 Thanos

There are tons of banks jumping to do the same thing all on their own right now. Some money is better than no money every time.

Interesting. It might be something they would have done on their own eventually. It kinda odd that they have to be threatened by court rulings to act in their own interest.

329 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:34:17pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I really need to re-read Atlas Shrugs. They is an instinct that many conservatives have to side with big business. I've never really understood it but it's a pretty predictable phenomenon.

Never read it here. It's a settlement so in the case the largest beneficiary will no doubt be Goldman Sachs. It's difficult to define Goldman Sachs as a "free market" entity at this point.

330 joncelli  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:34:59pm

OT: Mac-using minions who don't have automatic update set up should go grab updates, since Apple released 10.5.7 today.

331 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:11pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I really need to re-read Atlas Shrugs. They is an instinct that many conservatives have to side with big business. I've never really understood it but it's a pretty predictable phenomenon.

Others have an instinct to side with the government.

Also, quite difficult to understand, and predictable.

332 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:12pm

re: #326 Russkilitlover

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I really need to re-read Atlas Shrugs. They is an instinct that many conservatives have to side with big business free markets. I've never really understood it but it's a pretty predictable phenomenon.


FTFY

And it you can't understand that, you won't understand Atlas Shrugged.

333 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:44pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I really need to re-read Atlas Shrugs. They is an instinct that many conservatives have to side with big business. I've never really understood it but it's a pretty predictable phenomenon.


Could be because "big business' provides things for multitudes of people like
paychecks
health insurance
paid time off
matching 401 K amounts
I could go on, if you would like

334 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:48pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I will never side with corrupt big business.
Thieves are thieves.

335 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:48pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

Interesting. It might be something they would have done on their own eventually. It kinda odd that they have to be threatened by court rulings to act in their own interest.

They definitely would, that happens all the time in down economies. Those upside down on their houses might not be upside down in five to ten years. You keep them paying something during that time, you still win at the bank.

336 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:49pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

Respectfully, having played all sports as a kid, hockey is much more than fisticuffs skillwise, especially playoff hockey.

1) just try skating
2) now try it with all that equipment on
3) now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck
4) now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck while an opponent or three can bump into you as hard as they can
5)now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck while an opponent or three can bump into you as hard as they can while you try to shoot it into a goal protected by a guy that with HOS equipment on covers most of the net

Exactly, that's why it's easier to just sock someone in the jaw, which is what most of the game is about.

This is not sporting, it's a fight on ice.

337 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:57pm

re: #309 Liberal Classic

It's no hoax. Furthermore, I find the your post to be similar in tone to creation scientists: "The evolution discussion has passed from the realm of science to becoming a religion. Not a devout practitioner? No grant money for you, you evolution denier."

Neat trick, equating disbelief in global warming to belief in creation science. Sorry, but I'm not biting. Evolution isn't a theory, it's science. Creationism, or its cousin ID, is the religion. I find the "science" behind global warming to be about as convincing as the "science" behind ID.

338 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:35:58pm

re: #321 Thanos

There are tons of banks jumping to do the same thing all on their own right now. Some money is better than no money every time.

true, it the banks that benefit in the short run....extending a loan with a fixed rate will only prolong foreclosure...homeowner is still gonna go down, just sometime in the future

339 debutaunt  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:36:13pm

re: #322 Killgore Trout

I really need to re-read Atlas Shrugs. They is an instinct that many conservatives have to side with big business. I've never really understood it but it's a pretty predictable phenomenon.

People do feel comfortable on one side or the other. I'll bet the government could run your little business quite seccessfully.

340 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:36:45pm
341 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:36:46pm

re: #336 Walter L. Newton

Exactly, that's why it's easier to just sock someone in the jaw, which is what most of the game is about.

This is not sporting, it's a fight on ice.

hardly most since the rules have been drasticaly changed since the roaring 70's

342 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:37:06pm

re: #336 Walter L. Newton

Exactly, that's why it's easier to just sock someone in the jaw, which is what most of the game is about.

This is not sporting, it's a fight on ice.

I went to a fight, and a hockey game broke out.

343 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:38:03pm

Michael Landon's son died. 60

344 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:38:27pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

Interesting. It might be something they would have done on their own eventually. It kinda odd that they have to be threatened by court rulings to act in their own interest.

it's not in their own interest...pay now is better than pay later...have you ever borrowed money?

345 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:39:20pm

re: #338 albusteve

true, it the banks that benefit in the short run....extending a loan with a fixed rate will only prolong foreclosure...homeowner is still gonna go down, just sometime in the future

Nope, those who cut deals generally work through them. My wife's been in banking 30+ years, I know this stuff. Most banks don't want to foreclose, and especially during bad economies. It moves huge amounts of cost onto their books. They have to pay the upkeep, the insurance, the tax etc. etc. etc. They would much rather cut a deal with an earnest homeowner.

346 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:39:33pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

Respectfully, having played all sports as a kid, hockey is much more than fisticuffs skillwise, especially playoff hockey.

1) just try skating
2) now try it with all that equipment on
3) now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck
4) now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck while an opponent or three can bump into you as hard as they can
5)now try it with all that equipment on while trying to control the puck while an opponent or three can bump into you as hard as they can while you try to shoot it into a goal protected by a guy that with HOS equipment on covers most of the net

I love ya bro..and I did grow up in Napa Valley..the last Bastian of Hockey in America...
The next time I want to see thugs in iceskates score a point every half hour and beat the shit out of themselves to do it..I'll watch Saturday morning cartoons.
/Remember..We just disagree friend..

347 Ateam  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:39:44pm

re: #288 Walter L. Newton

OT - Season closer tomorrow - LOST - I don't know what time it all starts in your neck of the woods, but it's an hour recap show and then a two hour closer, total three hours of LOST.

Here the event will take place on cable screen - next Saturday night, 21.15 pm. Can't wait

348 avanti  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:40:17pm

re: #337 Son of the Black Dog

I find the "science" behind global warming to be about as convincing as the "science" behind ID.

That's the mantra of the ID'ers. If the science is wrong on global warming, then surely it can be wrong on evolution. They'll use that as a wedge issue, but it's a apples and oranges issue. Mainstream science supports climate change, but not creationism..

349 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:40:53pm

re: #345 Thanos

Nope, those who cut deals generally work through them. My wife's been in banking 30+ years, I know this stuff. Most banks don't want to foreclose, and especially during bad economies. It moves huge amounts of cost onto their books. They have to pay the upkeep, the insurance, the tax etc. etc. etc. They would much rather cut a deal with an earnest homeowner.

of course they don't want to foreclose...the issue here is that they are going to and to rake in as much cash as they can before that happens, if it does

350 wrenchwench  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:41:15pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

Interesting. It might be something they would have done on their own eventually. It kinda odd that they have to be threatened by court rulings to act in their own interest.

That might be for the sake of the shareholders. Let the judge convince them, instead of the CEO or whoever.

351 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:42:23pm

re: #321 Thanos

There are tons of banks jumping to do the same thing all on their own right now. Some money is better than no money every time.

It is one thing for a bank to voluntarily renegotiate mortgages based on a belief that it is the economically sensible thing to do. It is quite another for the state to force one party into an economically disadvantageous settlement. The Left is setting increasingly dangerous precedents in using its power to strongarm the productive sectors of our society.

352 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:42:42pm

re: #345 Thanos

also, I'm going on the assumption that the holder cannot pay the loan, as written or after they cut a deal...maybe their earning will improve

353 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:42:44pm

re: #349 albusteve

of course they don't want to foreclose...the issue here is that they are going to and to rake in as much cash as they can before that happens, if it does

No, they aren't going to foreclose if they can avoid it. Their business model is based on getting the loans they are holding paid off one way or the other, not written off.

354 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:43:29pm

re: #351 Son of the Black Dog

It is one thing for a bank to voluntarily renegotiate mortgages based on a belief that it is the economically sensible thing to do. It is quite another for the state to force one party into an economically disadvantageous settlement. The Left is setting increasingly dangerous precedents in using its power to strongarm the productive sectors of our society.

agreed

355 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:43:43pm

re: #351 Son of the Black Dog

It is one thing for a bank to voluntarily renegotiate mortgages based on a belief that it is the economically sensible thing to do. It is quite another for the state to force one party into an economically disadvantageous settlement. The Left is setting increasingly dangerous precedents in using its power to strongarm the productive sectors of our society.

I wish I had a thousand updings to give......

356 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:43:55pm

re: #346 HoosierHoops

I love ya bro..and I did grow up in Napa Valley..the last Bastian of Hockey in America...
The next time I want to see thugs in iceskates score a point every half hour and beat the shit out of themselves to do it..I'll watch Saturday morning cartoons.
/Remember..We just disagree friend..

OR ,,, we can watch guys with overactive pituatary glands being paid 10 million a year that can't even shoot a FREE throw!

:) ((and don;t get me wrong ,, I LOVE bball,,,, Growing up in Boston in the late 50's and 60's, I thought it was our birthright to be world champs

357 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:44:20pm

re: #351 Son of the Black Dog

It is one thing for a bank to voluntarily renegotiate mortgages based on a belief that it is the economically sensible thing to do. It is quite another for the state to force one party into an economically disadvantageous settlement. The Left is setting increasingly dangerous precedents in using its power to strongarm the productive sectors of our society.

I agree but it's what the banks were going to do this anyway, I'm not going to get in a huff about it.

358 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:44:22pm

re: #353 Thanos

No, they aren't going to foreclose if they can avoid it. Their business model is based on getting the loans they are holding paid off one way or the other, not written off.

if they can't pay for it now, how do they pay for it later?

359 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:44:44pm

re: #348 avanti

That's the mantra of the ID'ers. If the science is wrong on global warming, then surely it can be wrong on evolution. They'll use that as a wedge issue, but it's a apples and oranges issue. Mainstream science supports climate change, but not creationism..

Creationism is crap.
Global warming is crap that doesn't smell quite as bad.

The two turds shouldn't be conflated.

360 sattv4u2  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:45:24pm

K Kiddies ,,,, 1st period of the Bruins game is over (Boston 2 Carolina 0) and the Celtics start in about 20 minutes. I should be halfway home by the time they both start back up!

361 SixDegrees  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:45:36pm

re: #305 Killgore Trout

I'm waiting for someone to propose big incentives for buying foreclosed homes. That should clean up the housing market pretty quick.

The steeply discounted prices are a pretty big incentive. It's enough to perk my interest; I've started exploring just that possibility around my area, where there are foreclosed homes on the market for around a quarter of what their market value was roughly a year ago. I'm thinking the housing market will recover fairly quickly, and sitting on these for two or three years may turn a nice profit if they aren't in bad shape to begin with.

Fairly large cash outlay and commitment, though; still pondering.

362 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:45:58pm

re: #358 albusteve

if they can't pay for it now, how do they pay for it later?

They can pay something. The value of the home is not going to be depressed forever. The economy is not going to be bad forever.

363 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:47:52pm

re: #361 SixDegrees

The steeply discounted prices are a pretty big incentive. It's enough to perk my interest; I've started exploring just that possibility around my area, where there are foreclosed homes on the market for around a quarter of what their market value was roughly a year ago. I'm thinking the housing market will recover fairly quickly, and sitting on these for two or three years may turn a nice profit if they aren't in bad shape to begin with.

Fairly large cash outlay and commitment, though; still pondering.

I've bought several houses in foreclosure but I had to rent them out...that's where I got killed....they need to be turned quick for a reasonable profit

364 SixDegrees  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:48:40pm

re: #349 albusteve

of course they don't want to foreclose...the issue here is that they are going to and to rake in as much cash as they can before that happens, if it does

Doesn't seem to be very true around here. The banks seem more interested in getting the properties off their books as quickly as possible. Right now, foreclosures are running around a quarter to a third of market value for the same house a year ago, which is still far below market value today for non-foreclosed properties. They don't seem to be trying to maximize profits.

365 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:48:45pm

re: #356 sattv4u2

OR ,,, we can watch guys with overactive pituatary glands being paid 10 million a year that can't even shoot a FREE throw!

:) ((and don;t get me wrong ,, I LOVE bball,,,, Growing up in Boston in the late 50's and 60's, I thought it was our birthright to be world champs

LOL
we're good...I don't understand Hockey..That's not your fault...
The greatest BBall Series I ever saw..Was the Warriors sweeping the Bullets in 1975..I lived an hour from Oakland..I just loved that series..
Drive safe home tonight!

366 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:49:11pm

re: #348 avanti

That's the mantra of the ID'ers. If the science is wrong on global warming, then surely it can be wrong on evolution. They'll use that as a wedge issue, but it's a apples and oranges issue. Mainstream science supports climate change, but not creationism..

I think you've got things backwards.

367 Redline  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:49:16pm

NASA - Aerosols May Drive a Significant Portion of Arctic Warming"We will have very little leverage over climate in the next couple of decades if we're just looking at carbon dioxide," Shindell said.

368 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:49:16pm

re: #362 Thanos

They can pay something. The value of the home is not going to be depressed forever. The economy is not going to be bad forever.

that's the obvious plan...I concede...but will it?...some of these deals have to be made on ridiculously overpriced loans....we shall see

369 nyc redneck  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:49:33pm

re: #97 JCM

“We need somebody who’s got the heart — the empathy — to recognize what it’s like to be a young teenage mom, the empathy to understand what it’s like to be poor or African-American or gay or disabled or old,” he said. “And that’s the criteria by which I’ll be selecting my judges.”
Barak Obama Speaking to Planned Parenthood.

Rule of Law?
Fuck that dead white man shit.

and o 'taught' constitutional law. lol.
i don't think he believes any of the stuff he listed. those are buzz word categories to him.
he just wants to appear like a kind and concerned person.
let's not forget how he feels abt. a botched abortion baby that is born alive.
where's the compassion for that little needy human being?
o is a stone cold phony.

370 Summersong  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:50:00pm

re: #361 SixDegrees

"It's enough to perk my interest; I've started exploring just that possibility around my area, where there are foreclosed homes on the market for around a quarter of what their market value was roughly a year ago".

I wish that were the case where I live, I'd be buying!

371 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:50:21pm

re: #364 SixDegrees

Doesn't seem to be very true around here. The banks seem more interested in getting the properties off their books as quickly as possible. Right now, foreclosures are running around a quarter to a third of market value for the same house a year ago, which is still far below market value today for non-foreclosed properties. They don't seem to be trying to maximize profits.

then by all means buy....but have a plan for a sale

372 AuntAcid  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:51:41pm

re: #356 sattv4u2

OR ,,, we can watch guys with overactive pituatary glands being paid 10 million a year that can't even shoot a FREE throw!

:) ((and don;t get me wrong ,, I LOVE bball,,,, Growing up in Boston in the late 50's and 60's, I thought it was our birthright to be world champs

pituatary glands, over active or not, have nothing what so ever to do with being taller than average....

373 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:51:44pm

re: #368 albusteve

that's the obvious plan...I concede...but will it?...some of these deals have to be made on ridiculously overpriced loans....we shall see

I think it will recover. Some areas never as much since speculators created a real bubble (I'm thinking about some overpriced CA real estate right now) Those are probably the ones you will see foreclosed and written off. The jumbos...

374 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:52:11pm

re: #337 Son of the Black Dog

Neat trick, equating disbelief in global warming to belief in creation science. Sorry, but I'm not biting. Evolution isn't a theory, it's science. Creationism, or its cousin ID, is the religion. I find the "science" behind global warming to be about as convincing as the "science" behind ID.

That reminds me of the the "True Scotsman Fallacy" in a way. "If AGW isn't science and ID isn't science therefore AGW science is like intelligent design." It is possible to refute AGW using science. In fact that is the only professional route if one were to attempt to refute AGW.

AGW science is rather diverse and should be subject to scrutiny however that doesn't invalidate the science behind most of the work regardless of the conclusion. The emotions and politics behind AGW is a different story and there one might find equal footing to other opinions based on rhetoric or popular belief alone.

375 SixDegrees  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:52:18pm

re: #363 albusteve

I've bought several houses in foreclosure but I had to rent them out...that's where I got killed....they need to be turned quick for a reasonable profit

That's what I'm thinking, too. I think the recovery will be quick, and a couple of years ought to do it, but I'm still not entirely convinced that's what's going to happen. I really never want to be a landlord - way too much work, way too much expense.

By the way - how are property taxes determined in such cases? My present home's taxes were based on my original purchase price. I'm sort of guessing that's not the case for foreclosures, and that the taxing authority will claim the appraised value is much higher, leaving me with a steeper property tax bill, perhaps, than the property warrants. If it always adjusts with the selling price, however, I'd save a significant chunk of cash while waiting for the market to rebound.

376 SixDegrees  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:54:05pm

re: #371 albusteve

then by all means buy....but have a plan for a sale

Still trying to warm my feet up.

377 Dar ul Harbarian  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:55:31pm

re: #367 Redline

NASA - Aerosols May Drive a Significant Portion of Arctic Warming"We will have very little leverage over climate in the next couple of decades if we're just looking at carbon dioxide," Shindell said.

I read that the Ozone hole was masking global warming by cooling Antarctica.

Basically, climate science is very young and much isn't know. But that won't stop the Eco-religious fanatics from trying to geo-engineer the climate after they have destroyed the world's economy.

378 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:55:33pm

re: #373 Thanos

I think it will recover. Some areas never as much since speculators created a real bubble (I'm thinking about some overpriced CA real estate right now) Those are probably the ones you will see foreclosed and written off. The jumbos...

it does seem to be isolated regionally...the market is picking up again already here in ABQ and Rio Rancho, typically a fast growing area...but oddly I look at alot of the old money mega ranchitos down along the Rio Grande and far too many are up for sale....5m plus homes...I can't figure it out

379 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:55:56pm

re: #330 joncelli

OT: Mac-using minions who don't have automatic update set up should go grab updates, since Apple released 10.5.7 today.

[runs off to go find out]

380 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:56:18pm

re: #376 SixDegrees

Still trying to warm my feet up.

cash rules....don't ever forget that...I learned the hard way

381 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:56:42pm

re: #367 Redline

NASA - Aerosols May Drive a Significant Portion of Arctic Warming"We will have very little leverage over climate in the next couple of decades if we're just looking at carbon dioxide," Shindell said.

I'm automatically skeptical of anything that comes out of James Hansen's lab.

382 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:58:37pm

re: #378 albusteve

it does seem to be isolated regionally...the market is picking up again already here in ABQ and Rio Rancho, typically a fast growing area...but oddly I look at alot of the old money mega ranchitos down along the Rio Grande and far too many are up for sale....5m plus homes...I can't figure it out

I haven't seen for sale signs stay up too long in Overland Park either. Of course a year and a half ago a for sale sign would go up and down the same day here, now buyers are being more picky with the glut on the market.

383 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:58:44pm

re: #380 albusteve

that sounds condescending...I didn't mean it like that

384 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:00:05pm
385 Dahveed  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:01:59pm

OT and I'm sure most have heard/discussed this~

The government sent a stimulus check to a woman that's been dead 40 years. This is the same government that many hope will be in charge of their healthcare. There's no chance of fraud here.

386 Randall Gross  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:02:41pm

Heh, take that Nan:

387 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:02:43pm

re: #367 Redline

NASA - Aerosols May Drive a Significant Portion of Arctic Warming"We will have very little leverage over climate in the next couple of decades if we're just looking at carbon dioxide," Shindell said.

I have my AC cranked up right now. I'm curious since that is a NASA site if the affiliate agencies are working on any alternatives to aerosols.

388 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:02:53pm

re: #382 Thanos

I haven't seen for sale signs stay up too long in Overland Park either. Of course a year and a half ago a for sale sign would go up and down the same day here, now buyers are being more picky with the glut on the market.

maybe big money is just tempting the markets here...I dunno...I'm talking prime stuff, the best living in the entire southwest....why are so many willing to sell in this market?....and I also know brokers who are belly up that only sell a couple of homes a year...very strange

389 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:03:05pm
390 Last Mohican  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:03:17pm

re: #385 Dahveed

OT and I'm sure most have heard/discussed this~

The government sent a stimulus check to a woman that's been dead 40 years.

She's gonna need a bigger stimulus than that if Obama wants her to start buying plasma TVs and stuff.

391 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:03:55pm

re: #384 buzzsawmonkey

I'll forgive you, if you give me the cash...

Heh.

stand in line right over there behind the IRS------------>

392 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:05:10pm

re: #385 Dahveed

OT and I'm sure most have heard/discussed this~

The government sent a stimulus check to a woman that's been dead 40 years. This is the same government that many hope will be in charge of their healthcare. There's no chance of fraud here.

you not feeling the ACORN clinic huh?

393 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:05:19pm

re: #383 albusteve

Don't dispare. One of the most astute real estate investors I ever knew was negative cash flow on most of his properties for a long time. But he hung onto them, doing without a lot of things some of us consider necessities, and repeatedly refinanced as interest rates came down in the 80's and 90's. Now he's got most of them paid off and has a comfortable retirement income that isn't subject to the whims of the stock market.

394 J.S.  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:05:53pm

re: #327 sattv4u2

Yes, it's so much more than just fighting....(all the Canadian teams are out of the playoffs... : (

395 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:06:29pm

re: #391 albusteve

stand in line right over there behind the IRS------------>

"We're from the IRS, and we're here to help."

//

396 screaming_eagle  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:07:13pm

re: #395 Gus 802

"We're from the IRS, and we're here to help."

//

Dead people get a check, live people pay up.

397 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:08:01pm

re: #396 screaming_eagle

Dead people get a check, live people pay up.

Sort of the inverse of Chicago: dead people vote, live people end up running things.

398 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:08:28pm

re: #395 Gus 802

"We're from the IRS, and we're here to help."

//

the feds consider ME! a thief....no mercy

399 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:09:03pm

re: #396 screaming_eagle

Dead people get a check, live people pay up.

Damn it..I knew I needed a better agent...or Lawyer..LOL

400 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:09:13pm

re: #396 screaming_eagle

Dead people get a check, live people pay up.

You have to wonder how many cases like this occur year round.

401 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:09:16pm

re: #337 Son of the Black Dog

Neat trick, equating disbelief in global warming to belief in creation science. Sorry, but I'm not biting. Evolution isn't a theory, it's science. Creationism, or its cousin ID, is the religion. I find the "science" behind global warming to be about as convincing as the "science" behind ID.

No trick, because when you wrote "The global warming discussion has passed from the realm of science to becoming a religion. Not a devout practitioner? No grant money for you, you climate change denier." you are making the exact same arguments that creation scientists do with respect to evolution, i.e. painting agreement with the scientific theory as being a religion, and claiming that there is a conspiracy in science to suppress ideas contrary to the dominant view. Both of these things are demonstrably false. I make the comparison not to suggest that you believe in creationism, but to show you have fallen into the same fallacious and conspiracist thinking as creationists. I suggest that if you are not convinced of the science behind the greenhouse effect and global warming, then you have not adequately studied the subject.

402 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:09:25pm

re: #396 screaming_eagle

Dead people get a check, live people pay up.

And it's no like dead people can't pay. After all Elvis is making more money today than he did when he was alive. Ain't that right King?

403 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:09:37pm

re: #398 albusteve

the feds consider ME! a thief....no mercy

well they should know... ;)

404 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:10:04pm

Will the EPA head be flying low over Manhattan?

405 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:10:06pm

re: #402 Nevergiveup

And it's no like dead people can't pay. After all Elvis is making more money today than he did when he was alive. Ain't that right King?

He'll call you later..He just left the Building

406 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:10:23pm

re: #393 Son of the Black Dog

Don't dispare. One of the most astute real estate investors I ever knew was negative cash flow on most of his properties for a long time. But he hung onto them, doing without a lot of things some of us consider necessities, and repeatedly refinanced as interest rates came down in the 80's and 90's. Now he's got most of them paid off and has a comfortable retirement income that isn't subject to the whims of the stock market.

yes it can be done....I wiped myself out as a landlord...capital gains killed me every fucking time...what's the use?....I did not have an endless supply of liquid money....spit...it's all a lie

407 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:11:11pm

re: #403 brookly red

well they should know... ;)

where's my Dick Nixon mask?

408 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:11:21pm

re: #398 albusteve

the feds consider ME! a thief....no mercy

I've seen them do that with people that owe only a couple of hundred dollars. They're rather unpredictable but a major pain overall.

409 screaming_eagle  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:11:39pm

re: #400 Gus 802

You have to wonder how many cases like this occur year round.

When someone who has been dead for 40 years gets a check, then you know it has to be alot. I could understand 6 months, but not 40 years.

410 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:13:19pm

I've said before that we could get better bang for our global-warming buck by reducing more potent greenhouse gasses: methane and nitrous oxide.

The semiconductor industry needs to trap their crap too: google up "perfluorocarbon" some time, and then recite what you find to any local Mac-using trendies.

Is it possible to reduce Mother Nature's little contributions too? The ocean is firing off fluorocarbons too, and so do volcanoes. We won't be able to do much about, say, Vesuvius but we might be able to curb emissions from the most docile mountains such as in Hawaii.

Reducing the absorption of the land might also help. We might consider raising the albedo of the Earth. That means reductions in any black soot which might fall on the ice caps.

I am afraid that a lot of what we are going to want to do will have to involve China. China pollutes too much anyway and insofar as they are directly poisoning California, never mind the planet, that's something that America will have to bring up in negotiations.

411 Last Mohican  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:13:53pm

I'm not really sure what Drudge is getting at with this one... you know the trolley driver in Boston who slammed into another train because he was distracted by text-messaging his girlfriend? It turns out he was a, um, transgender person. Used to be a woman. Now a man. Maybe this is supposed to be the birth of a new stereotype?

"For the love of God, how many innocent people will have to die before we stem the tide of text-message-obsessed transgender trolley drivers running amok in our cities?"

The article does note that the trolley driver was hired as an minority, because of his transgender status. So maybe that's the issue:

"Damn it, I am sick of all these people going and having their breasts removed and getting testosterone injections and having prosthetic penises surgically created on their bodies just so they can steal trolley-driving jobs from other hard-working, deserving Americans!"

Actually, come to think of it, are transgender people an underrepresented minority among municipal trolley drivers?

I give up. I'm not finding anything to work myself into a rage about here.

412 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:14:27pm

re: #408 Gus 802

I've seen them do that with people that owe only a couple of hundred dollars. They're rather unpredictable but a major pain overall.

I am an honest American...I have paid more taxes than alot of people...the IRS is a phony bunch of thugs that cannot even interpret their own rules....they owe me money and I want it back....they don't scare me at all

413 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:15:14pm

Happy birthday Yogi. 84 Years young.

414 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:15:19pm

re: #409 screaming_eagle

When someone who has been dead for 40 years gets a check, then you know it has to be alot. I could understand 6 months, but not 40 years.

40 years is 10 elections... do you get it now?

415 lawhawk  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:17:11pm

re: #411 Last Mohican

I happen to agree that I don't expect anything to come over the transgendered status. The driver clearly had issues, and it comes down to tremendously bad judgment in texting while driving. I'm sure the NTSB will look at the driver's medical issues and see if there's something that should raise alarm signals.

416 Gus  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:17:43pm

re: #411 Last Mohican

That LA train collision was due to text messaging also. He had a messed up life from what I understand and possibly another affirmative action hire.

Allegedly.

417 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:17:46pm

This won't deter the Journey of O at all. Bear in mind, they frankly don't give a damn at all about greenhouse gases and all that - what they want is to cripple capitalism. So, the memo is good news to Him; don't expect much of a bump in the road from this.

418 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:21:32pm

re: #411 Last Mohican

I'm not really sure what Drudge is getting at with this one... you know the trolley driver in Boston who slammed into another train because he was distracted by text-messaging his girlfriend? It turns out he was a, um, transgender person. Used to be a woman. Now a man. Maybe this is supposed to be the birth of a new stereotype?

"For the love of God, how many innocent people will have to die before we stem the tide of text-message-obsessed transgender trolley drivers running amok in our cities?"

The article does note that the trolley driver was hired as an minority, because of his transgender status. So maybe that's the issue:

"Damn it, I am sick of all these people going and having their breasts removed and getting testosterone injections and having prosthetic penises surgically created on their bodies just so they can steal trolley-driving jobs from other hard-working, deserving Americans!"

Actually, come to think of it, are transgender people an underrepresented minority among municipal trolley drivers?

I give up. I'm not finding anything to work myself into a rage about here.

I had the privilege to know a transgender woman for sometime before her death by brain cancer several years ago. Never knew her as a man, but she was quite an interesting person. At her wake, many that knew her better than I stood up and told stories about her. One of my favorites was the person sitting next to me, who was her Karate sparring partner for a few years and never knew that 'she' used to be a 'he.' She found out at the wake, listening to the others tell their stories. She said that, it explained how she (my friend) was constantly hitting and kicking her too hard.

419 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:22:23pm

re: #385 Dahveed

OT and I'm sure most have heard/discussed this~

The government sent a stimulus check to a woman that's been dead 40 years. This is the same government that many hope will be in charge of their healthcare. There's no chance of fraud here.

Ahhhh, the secret to immortality! Register as a democrat & you can never die...

420 Last Mohican  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:22:28pm

re: #415 lawhawk

I happen to agree that I don't expect anything to come over the transgendered status. The driver clearly had issues, and it comes down to tremendously bad judgment in texting while driving. .

I gotta say, I sometimes talk on my cellphone while driving (using a hands-free headset), and I believe that I can do it safely. I don't try to have important conversations that way, and I frequently have long lapses where I space out on the conversation because I'm concentrating on driving instead of talking. But I do think I'm safe.

However, I recently tried texting while driving for the first time. That was a seriously bad idea. It's extremely distracting. Now, when I see people doing it, I get really angry at them. Wasn't NJ governor Jon Corzine nearly killed because his limo driver was texting while driving?

421 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:23:59pm

re: #420 Last Mohican

I gotta say, I sometimes talk on my cellphone while driving (using a hands-free headset), and I believe that I can do it safely. I don't try to have important conversations that way, and I frequently have long lapses where I space out on the conversation because I'm concentrating on driving instead of talking. But I do think I'm safe.

However, I recently tried texting while driving for the first time. That was a seriously bad idea. It's extremely distracting. Now, when I see people doing it, I get really angry at them. Wasn't NJ governor Jon Corzine nearly killed because his limo driver was texting while driving?

Well don't know about texting, but he was doing like 110MPH?

422 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:25:21pm

re: #421 Nevergiveup

Well don't know about texting, but he was doing like 110MPH?

seat belts help too...

423 coquimbojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:26:14pm

re: #422 brookly red

seat belts help too...

Sexting while driving is the real problem....

424 zombie  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:27:38pm

This waffling by the EPA is pretty comical, because the very purpose of the Global Warming movement is to damage the economy of Western nations.

When confronted by this very obvious fact, oh now they're act like they're shocked and that wasn't the intent after all.

The possible change of the climate is a scientific issue. The ramifications of that possible change are mostly the realm of speculation. But the proposed "remedy" is a political issue. And people are consciously conflating the three -- acting as if you oppose their "solutions," or question the validity of their speculation, then you are questioning the science.

Typical logical fallacy technique to win an argument.

If the Global Warming enthusiasts were actually serious about their fantasy of saving the world through human activity (or lack thereof), then the Kyoto Protocols and similar proposed treaties would have confronted, identified and penalized developing countries to at least the same degree as developed countries. But the fact that China, India, Indonesia and the rest were largely exempted from the same kind of restrictions as the US and Europe means that the goal was not actually to affect climate change but rather to shift economic power away from the established capitalist nations. But the developing nations are actually doing more polluting than we are, and their share will increase as our economic structure is strangled while theirs is encouraged.

And pointing out this fact in no way makes me a "denier."

425 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:27:58pm

re: #423 coquimbojoe

Sexting while driving is the real problem....

air bags, condoms what ever...

426 AFVetWife  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:28:08pm

re: #86 opnion
First, this flip-flop is a good thing that we conservatives should jump on and turn to our advantage. We need to conclusively demonstrate that all the "global warming" stuff was a hoax and a scam.
Second, regarding the ACLU, I listen to Quinn and Rose in the morning, and Quinn says that ACLU stands for "Aging Commie Liberals Union." I can't help but agree.
OT: I am so glad that Miss California will keep her crown. It's refreshing to see a "pretty face" also exhibit some true and deeply held beliefs, and not be ashamed to state them.

427 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:28:31pm

re: #401 Liberal Classic

No trick, because when you wrote "The global warming discussion has passed from the realm of science to becoming a religion. Not a devout practitioner? No grant money for you, you climate change denier." you are making the exact same arguments that creation scientists do with respect to evolution, i.e. painting agreement with the scientific theory as being a religion, and claiming that there is a conspiracy in science to suppress ideas contrary to the dominant view. Both of these things are demonstrably false. I make the comparison not to suggest that you believe in creationism, but to show you have fallen into the same fallacious and conspiracist thinking as creationists. I suggest that if you are not convinced of the science behind the greenhouse effect and global warming, then you have not adequately studied the subject.

No you are incorrect, there is no valid comparison between the two issues.

Evolution is a mature science, Climate is an emerging field.

There is much to suggest that there is bias in media reporting, funding and publication, dozens of good articles have pointed to this. It is not at all a case of “fallacious and conspiracist thinking.

428 lawhawk  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:28:37pm

re: #420 Last Mohican

Corzine was nearly killed because his driver was going 90 on the GSP and didn't handle merging traffic (combined with Corzine not wearing a seat belt).

429 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:29:45pm

re: #426 AFVetWife

First, this flip-flop is a good thing that we conservatives should jump on and turn to our advantage. We need to conclusively demonstrate that all the "global warming" stuff was a hoax and a scam.
Second, regarding the ACLU, I listen to Quinn and Rose in the morning, and Quinn says that ACLU stands for "Aging Commie Liberals Union." I can't help but agree.
OT: I am so glad that Miss California will keep her crown. It's refreshing to see a "pretty face" also exhibit some true and deeply held beliefs, and not be ashamed to state them.

oh just wait to see what they have for her... joe the plumber got off easy.

430 coquimbojoe  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:29:54pm

re: #25 BlueCanuck

Oh no, it's the "Day of the Triffids"!

Do they spit poison and kill? Was Michael Rainy ill? Was the Earth standing still? What was Flash Gordon wearing?

431 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:30:53pm

re: #424 zombie

My sediments exactly; see no. 417.

432 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:31:21pm
433 AFVetWife  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:31:44pm

re: #94 Raiderdan

Regarding the "Fairness Doctrine," be sure to check out an article on American Thinker about Hate Crimes legislation, and the ultimate effect on all forms of discourse.

434 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:33:14pm

re: #424 zombie

Well said Zombie,

to be clear, the issue is not with the "science" this is an emerging field and the research should continue and be judged on its own merits.

The problem is with the way political activists and media activists are distorting and misrepresenting the science.

Separate issues are the degree to which bias is affecting funding for research, publication and peer review. With claims on both sides of bias, this will likely work itself out in time.

435 NelsFree  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:33:44pm

re: #218 pat

The fact that a government scientist can declare atmospheric concentrations od CO2 a health hazard is beyond embarrassing. He or she will be remembered as a dolt, if remembered at all.


The statement ranks right up there with the head of the US Patent Office saying it should be closed because everything had been invented. What year was that?
/discuss

Good evening all, I see the thread is well along now, and all the good jokes have been used up, especially smoking Cheerios. :) So, I can't add anything useful or funny. Guess I'll not even post anything...
...wait a minute...
/

436 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:33:45pm

re: #427 Bagua

I disagree. "No grant money for you" is conspiracist thinking, and suggesting people who agree with global warming are acting out of religious fervor is fallacious.

437 zombie  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:34:18pm

re: #431 AuldTrafford

My sediments exactly; see no. 417.


I updinged you.

However, Obama himself is neither the originator nor the main proponent of the "damage-capitalism-through-'green'-restrictions" strategy. He's just surfing along on the scheme devised by others. If he senses the public is fooled sufficiently by it, he's go along with the program. But I don't think he has much invested in the concept as his personal philosophy. For that we can blame Gore and the Gorebots.

438 lawhawk  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:36:03pm

re: #424 zombie

I'd like to extend those remarks by noting that if any of these global warming types were so assured that this was an imminent threat, where are the actions taken personally to reduce their carbon emissions.

Where are the teleconferencing as opposed to flying across the country or around the world to deliver speeches that could just as easily have been delivered with easily available technologies.

Why is the first instinct to chop emissions in the US and the West, and not the developing nations where the carbon emissions are worst - and it's not just COx but all kinds of particulates and other emissions (the air is simply dirtier in places like China than anywhere in the US).

Why is the first instinct to demand cutting power generation and pushing for alternative energy sources that cannot provide reliable and constant power, and that nuclear power is thwarted despite its safety record and advances in technologies.

439 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:36:43pm

re: #436 Liberal Classic

I disagree. "No grant money for you" is conspiracist thinking, ...

it walks like a duck...

440 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:39:51pm

re: #436 Liberal Classic

I disagree. "No grant money for you" is conspiracist thinking, and suggesting people who agree with global warming are acting out of religious fervor is fallacious.

I am not referring to that at all, rather I am pointing out the distorting effect of the massive amount of grant money that is available if the subject includes the effects of AGW.

Also, I do not hold that that in itself invalidates the science, which must be judged on its own merits, only that this is a valid point, and their are many good articles that discuss it.

Further, I don't say everyone onside of AGW is acting out of faith, rather that there is much ignorance on both sides that clouds the issue.

441 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:39:57pm

re: #437 zombie

I absolutely agree. The tactic probably precedes Marx; this is just a new gimmick, and certainly not Obama's.

442 NelsFree  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:40:47pm

re: #401 Liberal Classic

I suggest that if you are not convinced of the science behind the greenhouse effect and global warming, then you have not adequately studied the subject.

"Socialism has not worked yet because we haven't tried hard enough."
/yeah, right

443 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:42:28pm

re: #432 buzzsawmonkey

See, the thing is, you can make an equation between the arguments and declare that because one is false, both are false--but that, too, is a false equation.

I am not saying SoBD is wrong about AGW because creationists are wrong about evolution. I saying he's fallen into making a similar mistake. He said in this thread that he believes global warming is a hoax, that supporters of global warming hold fast to their opinions with a religious-life fervor, and the resultis a chilling effect on scientific research to the contrary. To me, this sounds very familiar.

444 NelsFree  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:47:19pm

Uh oh, bold font on a post. Meltdown before #520.
Who's turn is it for popcorn?

445 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:47:47pm

To clarify my comments and posts, the science behind Global Warming and AGW is not the hoax of which I speak, it is observations, models, theories and such that is the stuff of science, in this case, an emerging science.

The hoax is the media bias and political activism that greatly overstates and distorts the developing science.

446 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:47:48pm

re: #443 Liberal Classic

"...and the resultis a chilling effect on scientific research to the contrary. To me, this sounds very familiar."

it should, a whole lot of scientists have been saying it...

447 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:48:27pm

re: #444 NelsFree

You are very bold to point that out

448 NelsFree  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:49:12pm

re: #447 Bagua

You are very bold to point that out

I'm a font of wisdom.

449 tatterdemalian  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:49:23pm

I think the part that really concerns the EPA is the fact that the agency spent billions over the last thirty years forcing all cars and other gasoline-powered vehicles to attach devices that tripled each vehicle's carbon dioxide output, in order to limit their carbon monoxide and other partially-burned hydrocarbon waste products (colloquially known as "smog") that they normally emit.

That's how Chinese vehicles manage to limit their greenhouse gas emissions to the Kyoto standards, after all... no catalytic converter boxes. Carbon monoxide, although a deadly poison to all oxygen-respirating life, is not a greenhouse gas, and smog actually reflects the solar radiation that carbon dioxide traps.

450 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:51:13pm

OT

In good news, comedian and anti-idiotarian Dennis Miller announced he's going down to GITMO to entertain our troops. He is a real mensch and hero for thanking our troops for their hardship duty treating jihadist enemy combatants like respected guests at an exclusive day spa.

(Miller told Bill O'Reilly on Fox News)

451 NelsFree  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:52:32pm

re: #443 Liberal Classic

So, LC, could you state for the record any of the indisputible scientific studies that confirm man-made global warming?

452 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:53:28pm

re: #451 NelsFree

So, LC, could you state for the record any of the indisputible scientific studies that confirm man-made global warming?

algore said so!

453 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:54:24pm

re: #451 NelsFree

So, LC, could you state for the record any of the indisputible scientific studies that confirm man-made global warming?

* * * *
Hey hey hey, it's CLIMATE CRISIS, not global warming.

The democrats said CLIMATE CRISIS is more urgent and scary, so it works better for them.

454 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:55:14pm

re: #453 alegrias

Climate Crunch?

455 stevieray  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:55:31pm

re: #437 zombie

I updinged you.

However, Obama himself is neither the originator nor the main proponent of the "damage-capitalism-through-'green'-restrictions" strategy. He's just surfing along on the scheme devised by others. If he senses the public is fooled sufficiently by it, he's go along with the program. But I don't think he has much invested in the concept as his personal philosophy. For that we can blame Gore and the Gorebots.

I think the idea was to get carbon taxes passed while GWB was in office, so the damage could be blamed on him. Now that the Democrats have all the power, and therefore all of the blame, many politicians are rethinking their support of things like cap and trade. Tanking the economies of the West is no fun if you're going to lose your office over it.

456 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:56:18pm

re: #453 alegrias

* * * *
Hey hey hey, it's CLIMATE CRISIS, not global warming.

The democrats said CLIMATE CRISIS is more urgent and scary, so it works better for them.

and we never waste a good what?

457 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:56:54pm

re: #454 Bagua

Climate Crunch?

* * * * *
Crunch isn't as scary as CRISIS!

The objective is to create a stampede over the Climate Crisis Cliff.

458 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:58:19pm

re: #457 alegrias

* * * * *
Crunch isn't as scary as CRISIS!

The objective is to create a stampede over the Climate Crisis Cliff.

damn lemmings.

459 alegrias  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:58:37pm

re: #456 brookly red

and we never waste a good what?

* * * *
Pandemic Crisis!
Level 6!
Dick Cheney, BOO!

460 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:59:39pm

re: #445 Bagua

To clarify my comments and posts, the science behind Global Warming and AGW is not the hoax of which I speak, it is observations, models, theories and such that is the stuff of science, in this case, an emerging science.

The hoax is the media bias and political activism that greatly overstates and distorts the developing science.

In my opinion, to call the study of AGW (which I assume is, basically, the theory that warming - if it exists - is significantly related to human activity) a "science" is, itself, a bit misleading. The study of global warming may be somewhat scientific, as there are means of collecting some evidence over a meaningful time frame (geologic, etc.). The study of the impact of human activity's impact is on a different footing; it is almost impossible to reach real scientific conclusions on the issue with collectible data. The time extent of the relevant human activity is (i) way too short, and (ii) not reliably recorded or retrievable.

In short, there is relatively little evidence that there is a meaningful, long-term climatic change underway. There is less evidence that it is caused by greenhouse gases (rather than vice-versa), and there is essentially no evidence that human production of greenhouse gases is significant.

And, as Zombie has pointed out, the Left doesn't care; their goal is to cripple capitalism (which is, essentially, economic freedom). This whole issue is nothing but a convenient tool in that campaign.

461 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:01:31pm

re: #442 NelsFree

"Socialism has not worked yet because we haven't tried hard enough."
/yeah, right

This does not follow. I said that if SoBD is unconvinced about the greenhouse effect and global warming, that he should look again. Carbon dioxide is one of the primary greenhouse gasses, along with water vapor and methane. (As someone else noted, there are some trace gasses that contribute also.) Human industrial output releases gigatons of carbon dioxide annually. A small increase in the percent of atmospheric carbon dioxide means a small increase in the opacity of the atmosphere at infrared wavelengths. All of this is non-controversial, well-established science.

Calling non-controversial, well-established science a hoax in my opinion borders on the conspiratorial. I think SoBD, and other people who suggest global warming is a hoax need to re-evaluate their position. Humans can, and do, have a very real effect on the environment and the atmosphere. Future generations are going to have to cope with the change in global climate and local weather patterns. Saying so doesn't make me a socialist.

462 NelsFree  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:02:30pm

Looks like Liberal Classic is back on the bookshelf of life, although I'm not sure where that analogy will go. I'm going to bed...]
OOOHHH, Solitaire!

G'nite, all.

463 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:03:10pm

re: #136 buzzsawmonkey

Naaaaah. She's got cancer, and will soon be gone. If Obama is going to appoint someone, he's going to want them to stick around a while.

Justice Michelle Obama. *SHUDDER*

464 Racer X  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:04:52pm

AGW?

I'll believe it when the loudest cheerleaders start acting like it.

465 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:05:51pm

re: #463 FurryOldGuyJeans

Justice Michelle Obama. *SHUDDER*

Ah, but she's the First Mom now, and that's her top priority now that she's in the White House--although she was a working woman before with a top job at a Chicago Hospital. No dual standard there....but I doubt she would take the job.

466 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:06:00pm

re: #461 Liberal Classic

. . . Human industrial output releases gigatons of carbon dioxide annually. A small increase in the percent of atmospheric carbon dioxide means a small increase in the opacity of the atmosphere at infrared wavelengths. All of this is non-controversial, well-established science.

* * *

Two problems: (i) it is not proven that an increase in opacity (or whatever carbon dioxide does) is harmful, and (ii) it is not proven that the Earth does not compensate for human production by either producing less itself, or absorbing more - or a combination of both. And there is no way to prove it one way or the other; there simply is not the data.

467 lincolntf  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:06:01pm

Hi all.
Any of my fellow Celtics fans on here right now?

468 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:07:57pm

re: #465 vxbush

Oh please ... She'd take it in a heartbeat if either of them thought they'd get away with it. She'd never get out of committee; lack of credentials for starters.

469 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:08:12pm

re: #467 lincolntf

Hi all.
Any of my fellow Celtics fans on here right now?

Nope just a Blackhawks fan. I had some fun today ragging on a co-worker from Detroit. Good times. good times.

470 AMER1CAN  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:08:22pm

heck, why not let the EPA have a piece of your money. Every other government agency is getting a slice it almost seems unfair that the EPA should go without some of your hard earned money too.

/do I even need to?

471 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:09:12pm

re: #465 vxbush

Ah, but she's the First Mom now, and that's her top priority now that she's in the White House--although she was a working woman before with a top job at a Chicago Hospital. No dual standard there....but I doubt she would take the job.

It was a fake shakedown patronage job, for which she did nothing and received $350,000/year, this alleged job was so critical that it was eliminated when she moved on up to that big mansion on Penna. Ave.

472 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:09:38pm

re: #460 AuldTrafford

We getting too nuanced here, the study is, as Liberal Classic pointed out, one of science. Some aspects, such as the thermal forcing of the 'greenhouse gasses" is very well understood and demonstrable under laboratory conditions. I don't see this as much in dispute or a question of hoax or bias.

What is less compelling are the models that make projections into the future and theories about positive and negative feedback.

The hoax is not the science, the hoax is the media and political distortions. Research and funding should continue.

473 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:10:04pm

re: #468 AuldTrafford

Oh please ... She'd take it in a heartbeat if either of them thought they'd get away with it. She'd never get out of committee; lack of credentials for starters.

No disagreement there, but I really doubt that she would take it. I mean, why work now? Once her husband is out of office, he'll make millions and millions in speaking engagements--better than former President Clinton. They'll be rolling in dough. So she doesn't need to work.

474 jvic  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:10:06pm

re: #454 Bagua

Climate Crunch?

Sounds like a new brand of granola.

For every Climate Crunch you buy, we will make a donation to Greenpeace.

Climate Crunch. It tastes good. It's good for you. And it's good for the planet!

475 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:10:33pm

re: #471 Alouette

It was a fake shakedown patronage job, for which she did nothing and received $350,000/year, this alleged job was so critical that it was eliminated when she moved on up to that big mansion on Penna. Ave.

Yes, I know; which is why she won't want to do *real* work, like on the SC.

476 Gella  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:10:37pm

re: #469 Dark_Falcon

Nope just a Blackhawks fan. I had some fun today ragging on a co-worker from Detroit. Good times. good times.

hooray to Hawks:))))))
good job boys :)))
who do u want them to play Anaheim or Detroit? i want them to beat Red Wings up :))

477 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:10:53pm

re: #465 vxbush

Ah, but she's the First Mom now, and that's her top priority now that she's in the White House--although she was a working woman before with a top job at a Chicago Hospital. No dual standard there....but I doubt she would take the job.

I think she would take it in a heartbeat if they could get away with it. She could be proud of her country for decades as she helps dismantle the rule of law.

478 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:13:06pm

re: #473 vxbush

No disagreement there, but I really doubt that she would take it. I mean, why work now? Once her husband is out of office, he'll make millions and millions in speaking engagements--better than former President Clinton. They'll be rolling in dough. So she doesn't need to work.

One word: power. She's one angry woman and desperately desires the power to right the wrongs of the world (and we all know what we're talking about here, I assume).

479 lincolntf  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:13:13pm

re: #461 Liberal Classic

How would you prefer to measure the results of the "Climate Change" regulations? 10 billion dollars per tenth of a degree Farenheit? Maybe a hundred billion dollars? Measured by who? When? How?
The fact that was being elucidated for you in the previous posts is that the "Al Gore Fantastic Climate Change Carnival" can go on forever without a single fact-check. But it will definitely require personal checks. From you, me and everyone else with an income.

480 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:13:15pm

re: #465 vxbush

Ah, but she's the First Mom now, and that's her top priority now that she's in the White House--although she was a working woman before with a top job at a Chicago Hospital. No dual standard there....but I doubt she would take the job.

I think there's a difference--the kids are under a different kind of stress now than they were in Chicago. Also, honestly, the pressure placed on a First Lady to BE THERE is considerable. Not compatible with working.

481 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:14:25pm

re: #476 Gella

hooray to Hawks:))))))
good job boys :)))
who do u want them to play Anaheim or Detroit? i want them to beat Red Wings up :))

I want to see the Hawks crush the Red Wings. The Red Wings got lucky at Wrigley Field, but this time they won't be beneficiaries of the Curse of the Goat.

482 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:14:34pm

re: #480 SanFranciscoZionist

I think there's a difference--the kids are under a different kind of stress now than they were in Chicago. Also, honestly, the pressure placed on a First Lady to BE THERE is considerable. Not compatible with working.

Very true. I can't imagine how the kids growing up in the White House can handle it without really good parenting.

483 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:15:18pm

re: #478 AuldTrafford

One word: power. She's one angry woman and desperately desires the power to right the wrongs of the world (and we all know what we're talking about here, I assume).

But there are plenty of other people who could do this for them; she doesn't have to do it herself. More than one committed leftist who could be eligible. Just pick a justice from the 9th Circus.

484 Gella  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:16:16pm

re: #481 Dark_Falcon

I want to see the Hawks crush the Red Wings. The Red Wings got lucky at Wrigley Field, but this time they won't be beneficiaries of the Curse of the Goat.

statistically speaking, from this season, Hawks have much better winning streak with Red Wings then with Anaheim. Ans yes, i completely agree with u about Red Wings :))))
i want Hawks to bring Stanley cup home :)

485 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:17:06pm

re: #472 Bagua

We getting too nuanced here, the study is, as Liberal Classic pointed out, one of science. Some aspects, such as the thermal forcing of the 'greenhouse gasses" is very well understood and demonstrable under laboratory conditions. I don't see this as much in dispute or a question of hoax or bias.

What is less compelling are the models that make projections into the future and theories about positive and negative feedback.

The hoax is not the science, the hoax is the media and political distortions. Research and funding should continue.

Not just sure what you mean about thermal forcing of greenhouse gases, but - again - two issues: (i) is it harmful, and (ii) does the Earth (you know, the place outside the laboratory) compensate for anything we piddly humans can put in the atmosphere.

And I fully agree with you about the media and political distortions, incidentally. I just think the research and funding is not going to resolve anything - the questions are too massive and complex for our puny abilities to amass meaningful data (time frame, alone, is prohibitive).

486 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:17:51pm

Hi Lizards..I got your story for today..
I came home from work exhausted..Let the dog out in the Backyard..Later I checked on him..and he was gone..Just gone..Our entire backyard is enclosed by 6 ft fence..I panicked. I look everywhere...I lost the only pet I have ever owned..I checked everywhere..
Somehow little Winston crawled under the fence...
I totally panicked around 6pm.. I ran 2 miles down our country road calling out his name..Finally I came up to somebodies house playing with Winston in the front yard..You missing a dog..I called Winston and he ran to me full speed and jumped in my arms..I took him home and sweet talked him till we got in the yard..I had tears in my eyes thinking I had lost my little boy.Then I smacked him twice in the yard..His first smacks..I hated it..and I do have Winston's notice..I put him out backyard about an hour ago with a chain on and he didn't even move from the deck..He was at attention in the middle of the deck..It was really funny really..Oh Winston .It was 2 smacks of love...You ever escape again I'll really be pissed...
Poor Winston..He doesn't know we will not let him die on a country road chasing cats..
/He;ll pay for those 2 miles..I hope he can swim

487 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:19:19pm

re: #483 vxbush

But there are plenty of other people who could do this for them; she doesn't have to do it herself. More than one committed leftist who could be eligible. Just pick a justice from the 9th Circus.

Yet her becoming a SCOTUS Justice would be just sweet revenge. She is power-hungry enough to want the position personally. Someone else wouldn't do exactly what she would do.

488 austin_blue  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:19:45pm

re: #466 AuldTrafford

Two problems: (i) it is not proven that an increase in opacity (or whatever carbon dioxide does) is harmful, and (ii) it is not proven that the Earth does not compensate for human production by either producing less itself, or absorbing more - or a combination of both. And there is no way to prove it one way or the other; there simply is not the data.

Hmmm...actually, not true. Previous climate cycles have shown a swing of between around 180 ppm of CO2 during ice ages (less land mass exposed, less rotting of bioiological material and peat/bog/swamp activity) and a high of around 280 ppm during interglacial periods:

Image: File:Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

The problem is that we are quickly heading toward 400 ppm and there is no apparent mechanism for the natural earth processes to absorb the load. The ocean is a *huge* carbon sink, but is under significant strain. pH's have increased all over the globe and coral atolls and reefs are bleaching and dying:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Given how much biodiversity is contained in reef systems (i.e. tasty food for thee and me), this a real problem.

This really gets down to a basic problem. Fuel used for power generation and transportation is extracted. Coal, oil, and natural gas are, by definition, finite. And the more we extract the low hanging fruit, the more expensive such fuels will become. Seeing as how our modern civilization is based on electricity, the argument that "we have 150 years of coal available" is rather weak. It begs the question "Okay, then what?"

489 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:21:06pm

re: #486 HoosierHoops

Poor Hoosier! I'm so glad you found him. You give him extra belly rubs for me.

490 Dianna  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:21:12pm

I'm back! I'm back!

Did anyone miss me at all, at all?

491 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:21:59pm

re: #487 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet her becoming a SCOTUS Justice would be just sweet revenge. She is power-hungry enough to want the position personally. Someone else wouldn't do exactly what she would do.

As I do not know her personally nor do I know her psychological profile, I will not make assumptions about her desire for power.

492 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:22:26pm

re: #490 Dianna

I'm back! I'm back!

Did anyone miss me at all, at all?

Absolutely! The sky was dark, the clouds gathered, and it threatened storms all the time you were gone. You've returned, and the sun is out with rainbows.

493 brookly red  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:22:55pm

re: #490 Dianna

I'm back! I'm back!

Did anyone miss me at all, at all?

;)

494 austin_blue  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:23:12pm

re: #490 Dianna

I'm back! I'm back!

Did anyone miss me at all, at all?

I for one always appreciate your thoughtful commentary.

495 Dianna  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:23:17pm

re: #492 vxbush

Absolutely! The sky was dark, the clouds gathered, and it threatened storms all the time you were gone. You've returned, and the sun is out with rainbows.

Good! I'm glad the sun's returned. I won't attribute it to my presence, though.

496 Dianna  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:24:32pm

I'm so glad to be back - I can't stay on, because my Male is finally home and my friends are coming for dinner, but I just missed you all so much, I wanted to jump in and say hi.

497 vxbush  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:25:56pm

re: #496 Dianna

I'm so glad to be back - I can't stay on, because my Male is finally home and my friends are coming for dinner, but I just missed you all so much, I wanted to jump in and say hi.

Good to see you, dear. Enjoy your evening!

I need to go myself. Good night, everyone. Enjoy whatever rock you're sleeping on or under.

498 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:26:21pm

re: #485 AuldTrafford

Not just sure what you mean about thermal forcing of greenhouse gases, but - again - two issues: (i) is it harmful, and (ii) does the Earth (you know, the place outside the laboratory) compensate for anything we piddly humans can put in the atmosphere.

And I fully agree with you about the media and political distortions, incidentally. I just think the research and funding is not going to resolve anything - the questions are too massive and complex for our puny abilities to amass meaningful data (time frame, alone, is prohibitive).

I mean the radiative forcing (W/m2) of the greenhouse gasses, which I believe is fairly well understood in a closed laboratory system.

And yes I agree, taken beyond the laboratory, and we must rely on theories, models and assumptions, which I beleive have some way to mature before we can consider them accurate or actionable.

499 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:26:56pm

re: #488 austin_blue

Well, not going to argue fuel here; it's another major issue. Suffice to say I'm not sure I agree, but - in any event - I think wringing our hands about 150 years from now is not productive when nuclear energy has that kind of time to be further researched.

As to your statements about gases, I don't see how that counters my position at all. First, you totally fail to address the major question of whether the gases are harmful. We've been warmer in recorded history, and the results weren't all bad: bumper crops farther north, and good tourism.

But 400 ppm, or more, you still can't prove that's due to human activity rather than some natural cycle we know nothing about - and there's no way for us to know. So, issue number one is to decide whether the changes are (i) lasting (we won't be able to find that out) or (ii) hamful. That we can debate, I guess, but I doubt you'll convince me here. Especially since it's getting late for me, and I'm about to retire for the evening.

500 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:30:21pm

re: #488 austin_blue

wikipedia may not be the most authoritative source on the subjects you quote.

501 austin_blue  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:30:34pm

re: #499 AuldTrafford

Well, not going to argue fuel here; it's another major issue. Suffice to say I'm not sure I agree, but - in any event - I think wringing our hands about 150 years from now is not productive when nuclear energy has that kind of time to be further researched.

As to your statements about gases, I don't see how that counters my position at all. First, you totally fail to address the major question of whether the gases are harmful. We've been warmer in recorded history, and the results weren't all bad: bumper crops farther north, and good tourism.

But 400 ppm, or more, you still can't prove that's due to human activity rather than some natural cycle we know nothing about - and there's no way for us to know. So, issue number one is to decide whether the changes are (i) lasting (we won't be able to find that out) or (ii) hamful. That we can debate, I guess, but I doubt you'll convince me here. Especially since it's getting late for me, and I'm about to retire for the evening.

Another time, then. Good luck to your Reds against Barca. (((They really should trade in those AIG shirts, though ;>])))

502 AuldTrafford  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:33:13pm

re: #501 austin_blue

You may have a point about the shirts. But I don't think Barca is in shape to stop us: their back line is decimated with injury and suspensions (Puyol will be back, and not to be underestimated). And I'm hearing Henry and Iniesta may not be healthy either. I think Sir Alex is adding to his collection. Thanks for the good wishes, and a pleasant evening.

503 austin_blue  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:33:56pm

re: #500 Bagua

wikipedia may not be the most authoritative source on the subjects you quote.

Wikipedia is a real *good* source! Every bit of those articles is footnoted with source material for the info. What do you want? A scientific discussion based on the level of Drudge? Can't happen. *Doesn't* happen. Not the way peer reviewed research works.

504 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:34:19pm

re: #466 AuldTrafford

Two problems: (i) it is not proven that an increase in opacity (or whatever carbon dioxide does) is harmful...

What is well-established science is what carbon dioxide does. The addition of greenhouse gases increase the opacity of the atmosphere to infrared radiation. As everyone knows (or should know) electromagnetic waves travel unimpeded through vacuum. When EM waves come in contact with a material, the behavior of the waves are determined by the dielectric properties of the material and the wavelength of the wave.

The sun emits light over a broad spectrum, but most of the energy in the spectrum is concentrated in the visible wavelengths. At visible wavelengths, the atmosphere is transparent. This means little energy from the sun is lost to the atmosphere and most reaches then ground unimpeded. The soil has different dielectric properties. Some energy is reflected (the light we see illuminating the ground) and some is absorbed which is transformed into heat energy. The soil releases infrared radiation, ie heat rays. However, the atmosphere is not transparent at infrared wavelengths. At these wavelengths, it is an attenuating dielectric. This means as the EM waves pass through it, energy is lost to the material. The EM wave attenuates (becomes weaker) and the dielectric material warms until all of the energy is absorbed or the wave makes it out of the atmosphere into the vacuum of space. This is the basics of the greenhouse effect. The sun warms the earth, the earth warms the atmosphere.

Carbon dioxide is an important greenhouse gas. For comparison, Mars atmosphere is almost totally carbon dioxide. Though Mars is 75 million kilometers father out, and even though its atmosphere is about 0.1% that of earth's, the temperature at the equator in summer sometimes exceeds the melting point of water. Human industrial output is releasing gigatons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every year. Much of this carbon dioxide is from mineral sources that have been out of the carbon cycle for millions of years. In essence, what we're doing, is restoring a carbon dioxide balance to the atmosphere that hasn't existed for a very long time. By restoring the carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere to pre-historic levels, it is not unreasonable to expect a pre-historic climate, when the earth was warmer and wetter than it is now.

The climate is a dynamic system. It is going to change one way or the other. The one thing that is not going to happen is for the climate to stay the same. There's only two ways it can go. We're in an interglacial period right now, a periodic time of mild temperatures between cycles of glaciation. Human civilization will either witness global glaciation in a new ice age, or rising seas in a new hot house. I share the skepticism of many regarding the efficacy of the solutions offered by our political leaders. I think they're asking the wrong questions. They're asking "how do we stop climate change" when they should be asking "how is human civilization going to cope with the changing climate."

505 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:36:01pm

re: #503 austin_blue

I'm just poking fun at the bunch of wiki quotes.

506 lincolntf  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:38:20pm

re: #504 Liberal Classic

Do you believe that it should be the goal of mankind to leave the environment un-changed by our presence?

507 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:39:57pm

re: #504 Liberal Classic

Good post

508 austin_blue  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:40:04pm

re: #505 Bagua

I'm just poking fun at the bunch of wiki quotes.

I understand, but really, dive in on them. It's all there for the layman to educate him/herself. The amount of info available to a careful reader is vast. Those who don't educate themselves are half-vast. ;>)

509 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:43:10pm

re: #508 austin_blue

I agree, by using the footnotes and a bit of common sense, it can be a useful index, much in the way google is.

510 avanti  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:46:09pm

re: #504 Liberal Classic

What is well-established science is what carbon dioxide does. The addition of greenhouse gases increase the opacity of the atmosphere to infrared radiation. As everyone knows (or should know) electromagnetic waves travel unimpeded through vacuum. When EM waves come in contact with a material, the behavior of the waves are determined by the dielectric properties of the material and the wavelength of the wave.

The sun emits light over a broad spectrum, but most of the energy in the spectrum is concentrated in the visible wavelengths. At visible wavelengths, the atmosphere is transparent. This means little energy from the sun is lost to the atmosphere and most reaches then ground unimpeded. The soil has different dielectric properties. Some energy is reflected (the light we see illuminating the ground) and some is absorbed which is transformed into heat energy. The soil releases infrared radiation, ie heat rays. However, the atmosphere is not transparent at infrared wavelengths. At these wavelengths, it is an attenuating dielectric. This means as the EM waves pass through it, energy is lost to the material. The EM wave attenuates (becomes weaker) and the dielectric material warms until all of the energy is absorbed or the wave makes it out of the atmosphere into the vacuum of space. This is the basics of the greenhouse effect. The sun warms the earth, the earth warms the atmosphere.

Carbon dioxide is an important greenhouse gas. For comparison, Mars atmosphere is almost totally carbon dioxide. Though Mars is 75 million kilometers father out, and even though its atmosphere is about 0.1% that of earth's, the temperature at the equator in summer sometimes exceeds the melting point of water. Human industrial output is releasing gigatons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere every year. Much of this carbon dioxide is from mineral sources that have been out of the carbon cycle for millions of years. In essence, what we're doing, is restoring a carbon dioxide balance to the atmosphere that hasn't existed for a very long time. By restoring the carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere to pre-historic levels, it is not unreasonable to expect a pre-historic climate, when the earth was warmer and wetter than it is now.

The climate is a dynamic system. It is going to change one way or the other. The one thing that is not going to happen is for the climate to stay the same. There's only two ways it can go. We're in an interglacial period right now, a periodic time of mild temperatures between cycles of glaciation. Human civilization will either witness global glaciation in a new ice age, or rising seas in a new hot house. I share the skepticism of many regarding the efficacy of the solutions offered by our political leaders. I think they're asking the wrong questions. They're asking "how do we stop climate change" when they should be asking "how is human civilization going to cope with the changing climate."

You are of course correct, but remember you are on a right leaning blog. The climate change issue has become the political third rail for the right. Since Al Gore was involved in bringing the issue to light, it'll take years of hammering the science just to get some to look at the facts without prejudice. Many will finally accept the science, then we can start a dialog about what if anything to do about climate change.

511 grandma  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:47:14pm

Just because the EPA does or does not consider something as a danger means little. It means that according to their standards they just get to decide, because after all, they are part of the gummint. That’s just pure politics, not science.

My late father was employed as a technical director of research and development for a firm that made extrusion coatings for electrical components, among other things. He was a member of ASTM (American National Standards Institute) and NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Association) and received awards on behalf on his quality assurance contributions back in the 1980’s. He was instrumental in establishing national and global standards for the manufacturing process and quality of those chemical products that fell within the realm of both organizations and the corporations who agreed to adhere to such standards for those product lines.

If there is anything I recall about his professional work and efforts, it was that he told me that the standards are just that: standards. It doesn’t mean the production process, results, product or the standards are “safe”; they are just agreed upon “standards” and labeled acceptable. He viewed the EPA through the same glass. As he knew all to well, all the EPA does is set standards and would like everyone to comply. It is not about anything but politics and a big fund-raiser on the gummint’s part. Don’t get confused about “acceptable” and “safe”. They don’t necessarily equate. And the EPA would have us scared, or not, about CO2, depending upon the political climate.

512 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:48:33pm

re: #510 avanti

Agreed, except the ignorance appears on both sides of the issue at the moment. By the time "many will finally accept the science" the science itself will have been refined and changed.

513 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:49:26pm

re: #479 lincolntf

How would you prefer to measure the results of the "Climate Change" regulations? 10 billion dollars per tenth of a degree Farenheit? Maybe a hundred billion dollars? Measured by who? When? How?
The fact that was being elucidated for you in the previous posts is that the "Al Gore Fantastic Climate Change Carnival" can go on forever without a single fact-check. But it will definitely require personal checks. From you, me and everyone else with an income.

Personally, I think developing nuclear power should be a national priority. Hydroelectric and geothermal are excellent sources of inexhaustible and clean energy, unfortunately the right conditions don't exist everywhere to exploit them. I am skeptical about the economic viability of ocean-tide energy and wind power. I view solar power as a supplement to nuclear electric power generation. I was reading an article recently about the construction of semi-transparent panes of glass containing photovoltaic cells. You could wire up skyscrapers with these to offset peak energy use during the day, but I don't think solar panels will ever totally replace thermodynamic generator plants.

As far as who gets taxed when, I said upthread that I am skeptical about the political solutions offered. Cap and trade is destined for failure, because none of the developing nations will adhere to it. Does anyone really expect China and India to hobble their own economic development? I don't.

514 Bagua  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:53:36pm

re: #513 Liberal Classic

Well said, and very valid on several levels regardless of AGW

515 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 6:58:32pm
516 austin_blue  Tue, May 12, 2009 7:02:41pm

re: #513 Liberal Classic

Personally, I think developing nuclear power should be a national priority. Hydroelectric and geothermal are excellent sources of inexhaustible and clean energy, unfortunately the right conditions don't exist everywhere to exploit them. I am skeptical about the economic viability of ocean-tide energy and wind power. I view solar power as a supplement to nuclear electric power generation. I was reading an article recently about the construction of semi-transparent panes of glass containing photovoltaic cells. You could wire up skyscrapers with these to offset peak energy use during the day, but I don't think solar panels will ever totally replace thermodynamic generator plants.

As far as who gets taxed when, I said upthread that I am skeptical about the political solutions offered. Cap and trade is destined for failure, because none of the developing nations will adhere to it. Does anyone really expect China and India to hobble their own economic development? I don't.

Probably not, but what if the first world (I know, dreaming, dreaming...) forced them to leapfrog CO2 intensive power generation with nukes by imposing trade sanctions? We would have to lead the way, of course, but there has to be stick with that carrot or we are well and truly screwed.

517 hous bin pharteen  Tue, May 12, 2009 7:08:20pm

What next? My race car has to have CO2 controls? Good grief. It reminds me of when they wanted to have emission control on NASCAR race cars. Until they described how much private jets burned. I will not give up the fight until the remove my racing shoe's from my cold, dead, feet! ;-]

518 JohnAdams  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:03:49pm

re: #513 Liberal Classic

Upding in spades. Let's build nuclear power plants. Unless we are going to power up all these electric cars with "positive thought" circles.

519 abu jimbola  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:06:44pm

The EPA is beyond stupid. How in the hell is CO2 a danger to public health!

For those of you going on about ppms during ice ages and not so ice ages, let me say that Correlation does not equal causation. In fact cold precedes a drop in CO2, and warm precedes an increase. Hint. Its the frickin oceans.. remember those large bodies of water that cover 80% of planet!

Temperatures have been dropping for the last 10 years... 1998 was the hottest. The Arctic ice is expanding. Stop drinking the koolaid and look at the real facts.. or do you have a vested interest (like our buddy Al)?

520 JohnAdams  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:11:27pm

re: #519 abu jimbola

This issue stopped being just stupid, and started being dangerous, when Obama was elected. How could anyone assume that an elected US president would move to actually destroying all American manufacturing, and of course our economy itself, for this schoolgirl theory that is obviously an emotional propaganda effort aimed at idiots who vote?

521 FabioC.  Wed, May 13, 2009 2:18:31am

There's an even worse aspect. As McIntyre has discovered, EPA barely followed its own quality guidelines in drafting the CO2 regulation proposal.

522 voluble  Wed, May 13, 2009 7:43:51am

So, what is the "ideal" temperature of the earth that we are trying to hit? I want to know so that I can gauge how effectively my tax dollars are being spent. I also need to know the methodology by which it will be measured. None of this moving target bullshit, or just waving our arms and saying whatever the temperature would have been without the presence of man. If you don't know what the temperature would have been sans man then you have no way of knowing if we are at variance with it and to what degree.

Of course none of this has anything to do with science. It is about religious fanaticism and who has the power. Right now the country is experiencing a sort of psychotic break with reality. Everyone is waiting for Obama to crap out a new source of energy as if the laws of physics have been suspended by his election and as if there were not very good reasons why we have the energy mix that we do now. Somehow, I don't think unicorn farts and solar panels are going to cut it. Nuclear can help but the government will get no credit from me for restoring that which they should have never taken away during the last round of environmental hysteria run by the same scientifically illiterate bunch as is ginning up the current round. As dumb as the ID'ers are, they are essentially harmless compared to the environmentalists.

I think we will be digging out from under the wreckage of this administration for generations and historians will look back and pinpoint this as the time when the Republic was lost.


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