Well, I've never seen Krauthammer and Jack in the same room. Hmmm.

"He later helpfully suggested that my moral deficiencies derived from “watching TV and fantasizing about being Jack Bauer"

oh thems fighting words.

Hmm, I fantasize about Jack Bauer, but not about being him...

"Stupid" is paying Froomkin a compliment.

Nancy's moral compass and moral calculus are broken.

Charles Krauthammer: Jack Bauer's secret identity

"For the vast majority of families, belief in the value of a college education remains unshaken. Nine out of 10 parents agree college remains part of the American dream, and some 83% say the cost is worth it. Among the reasons: the ability to compete in the workforce (76%) and improved earnings power (64%). Some 77% of parents agreed that the election of President Barack Obama “proves that a good education makes anything possible.”

The last sentence makes no sense. If anything, the opposite is true.

re: #4 pre-Boomer Marine brat

"Stupid" is paying Froomkin a compliment.

A moron actually has some IQ.

And occasionally stupid. Dan Froomkin, writing for washingtonpost.com

You got Dumb and Dumber in the same line right there.

Froomkin sounds like a made-up name on the Onion.

I smell hypocrisy.

Why didn't Froomkin write "the ticking time bomb scenario only exists in two places: On TV and in the dark fantasies of power-crazed and morally deficient authoritarians." in response to Rahm Emmanuel's "Never let a crisis go to waste"?

So now the CIA is bad again?

And notice the coordinated attacks last night on Cable TV against Langley? Just a few months ago, the CIA was teh Dems' allies, leaking like my 90 y/o Grandma.

Or Charles K.,

The D's lied their asses off for political expediency.

re: #8 VegasRick

A moron actually has some IQ.

IMHO, "stupid" is somewhat akin to an act of omission.
Froomkin is deliberately not using the IQ he has.
That applies a multiplying factor to his stupidity.

The ticking time bomb scenario might be rare, but it could happen. I would suggest if they captured one my guy as part of a team about to commit a terrorist attack, the "rules" would be ignored by any administration. While support for 200 plus water boardings to search for general info gathering might be weak, not so if the ticking time bomb issue ever did come up.
i.e. had someone prevented one of the 9-11 planes from being hijacked, no one would questioned how we got the intelligence to stop it.

Charles Krauthammer for President!

I'm sorry, but if you have information you refuse to give that would save people's lives , the law be damned.

So it comes down to 1 of 2 things;

1) either the Dems knew about it and approved it and are now lying about it.

or

2) The Dems didn't know about, were negligent and incompetent and are now lying about it.

"MOST ETHICAL CONGRESS EVER!"

The torture debate is itself tortured - the definition of torture has been stretched and shredded beyond all comprehension. Waterboarding is not torture and neither are the harsh interrogation tactics.

But debasing the English language has served its purpose and the ability to thwart attacks under a ticking time bomb scenario are that much more difficult to accomplish because the Left thinks it's found itself an issue that it believes it can use politically as a club.

The problem is that they're finding that governing isn't the same as ankle biting and that they can't simply govern by attacking the party that is now thoroughly out of power. They can't shut Gitmo because there's no place to put the terrorists. They can't simply release photos of supposed mistreatment because it would lead to bad things. They can't do all the things on their pre-election wish list because it bumps hard into reality.

So, we get what are truly tortured explanations as to how Pelosi suddenly didn't know that waterboarding and EIT were used, when there's sufficient and credible evidence that she was properly informed going back to 2002 and that others in the room - including Democrats - concur with the CIA on this.

The only thing being tortured here are the facts by certain Democrats who continue putting politics ahead of national security.

"On Oct. 9, 1994, Israeli Cpl. Nachshon Waxman was kidnapped by Palestinian terrorists... He was interrogated with methods so brutal that they violated Israel's existing 1987 interrogation guidelines, which themselves were revoked in 1999 by the Israeli Supreme Court as unconscionably harsh...Who was that prime minister? Yitzhak Rabin, Nobel Peace laureate. The fact that Waxman died in the rescue raid compounds the tragedy but changes nothing of Rabin's moral calculus."

In all truthfullness, I'm not sure having a Nobel Peace prize means a hill of beans. Arafat had one, too. But still, Rabin certainly was a man of peace.

I haven't made up my mind on this whole issue. I can see both sides of it. I do think it's one of those things that has no winning answer.

re: #16 neoconundrum

Charles Krauthammer for President!

He was born in Canada...sadly for us.

re: #19 lawhawk

The torture debate is itself tortured - the definition of torture has been stretched and shredded beyond all comprehension. Waterboarding is not torture and neither are the harsh interrogation tactics.

But debasing the English language has served its purpose and the ability to thwart attacks under a ticking time bomb scenario are that much more difficult to accomplish because the Left thinks it's found itself an issue that it believes it can use politically as a club.

The problem is that they're finding that governing isn't the same as ankle biting and that they can't simply govern by attacking the party that is now thoroughly out of power. They can't shut Gitmo because there's no place to put the terrorists. They can't simply release photos of supposed mistreatment because it would lead to bad things. They can't do all the things on their pre-election wish list because it bumps hard into reality.

So, we get what are truly tortured explanations as to how Pelosi suddenly didn't know that waterboarding and EIT were used, when there's sufficient and credible evidence that she was properly informed going back to 2002 and that others in the room - including Democrats - concur with the CIA on this.

The only thing being tortured here are the facts by certain Democrats who continue putting politics ahead of national security.

Your post is too long, forcing me to read too much. I CALL TORTURE!

“watching TV and fantasizing about being Jack Bauer"

And Perez Hilton fantasizes about being Miss California.

re: #3 doppelganglander

Hmm, I fantasize about Jack Bauer, but not about being him...

I fantasize about Kim Bauer, Chloe O'Brien and Renee Walker. Sometimes all three of them at the same time. :)

You can believe that Pelosi and the American public underwent a radical transformation from moral normality to complicity with war criminality back to normality. Or you can believe that their personalities and moral compasses have remained steady throughout the years, but changes in circumstances (threat, knowledge, imminence) alter the moral calculus attached to any interrogation technique.

Very incisive reasoning.

re: #12 eddiebear

So now the CIA is bad again?

And notice the coordinated attacks last night on Cable TV against Langley? Just a few months ago, the CIA was teh Dems' allies, leaking like my 90 y/o Grandma.

Perhaps those leaks will dry up.

leaking like my 90 y/o Grandma

*shaking head*

My critics say: So what if Pelosi is a hypocrite? Her behavior doesn't change the truth about torture.

But it does. The fact that Pelosi (and her intelligence aide) and then-House Intelligence Committee Chairman Porter Goss and dozens of other members of Congress knew about the enhanced interrogation and said nothing, and did nothing to cut off the funding, tells us something very important.

Not just a hypocrite, but also a liar.

Anyone who argues giving a pass to political hypocrisy of this magnitude is part of the problem with American politics. Suddenly it's come out that San Fran Nan knew all about this, and she's trying to save face with her constituents. People arguing "so what?" don't want her held accountable to the electorate.

While I support Congress approving keeping this country safe, I do not approve of elected officials not being held accountable to the people. If the progressives in San Francisco are upset over this- they should vote her out of office.

re: #24 Mad Al-Jaffee

I fantasize about Kim Bauer, Chloe O'Brien and Renee Walker. Sometimes all three of them at the same time. :)

Nancy is watching all of you with her scary eyes.

re: #19 lawhawk

But you see how the Dems and their accomplices in the media have already won the 'debate'... The memos outlining the Interrogation Techniques are 'Torture Memos'. The Dems are talking about all this as 'torture' and their accomplices go right along with it...

The debate is lost already. It's time to tie Pelosi down to 'torture' and knowing about the techniques...

Hey Froomkin! This Jack Bauer thing of yours seems to imply that ideas like the ticking time bomb scenario are nothing more than "fiction".

As a writer, I take issue with that. Great fiction is based on/contains things that are true. That's what makes great fiction great.

Tolstoy wrote War and Peace. Great fiction. But, hey, that doesn't mean that France didn't invade Russia.

The constant reference to torture is rapidly becoming the subject and by constant repetition is slowly being accepted as the final word. The word itself needs to be challenged every time it's met. Waterboarding is not torture. It leaves no scars or physical impairment or deformities. It's end result is a wet face and hair - which can be quickly rectified with a towel and a hairdryer. The people screaming torture have one agenda only and that is to besmirch and indict the Bush Administration. Period.

re: #15 avanti

The ticking time bomb scenario might be rare, but it could happen. I would suggest if they captured one my guy as part of a team about to commit a terrorist attack, the "rules" would be ignored by any administration. While support for 200 plus water boardings to search for general info gathering might be weak, not so if the ticking time bomb issue ever did come up.
i.e. had someone prevented one of the 9-11 planes from being hijacked, no one would questioned how we got the intelligence to stop it.

The ticking time bomb scenario is real. Problem is, no one in the field with either the military or the CIA will no longer even think about doing anything even if they have signed written orders in triplicate for fear of prosecution by a later administration.

This administration by either intent or mistake has gutted our intelligence agencies. The jury is still out on which one it is.

re: #32 JohnnyReb

Intelligence paralysis...

I'm still not convinced the enhanced interrogation techniques constitute torture. Everyone seems to have conceded that point in discussing the case. I am not advocating for its continued use or its banning but there is no doubt about this:

The US got critical information from very evil people by using the technique.

The Dems and the current administration are using the issue to gain political points at the expense of those who were using the technique legally.

The current administration (Pelosi, Obama, et al) refuse to release documents that show the effectiveness of the techniques and the legal means by which they were approved while politicizing the issue to the point of undermining our national security and the people who are charged with keeping it at great risk to their lives.

re: #27 Sharmuta

Not just a hypocrite, but also a liar.

Anyone who argues giving a pass to political hypocrisy of this magnitude is part of the problem with American politics. Suddenly it's come out that San Fran Nan knew all about this, and she's trying to save face with her constituents. People arguing "so what?" don't want her held accountable to the electorate.

While I support Congress approving keeping this country safe, I do not approve of elected officials not being held accountable to the people. If the progressives in San Francisco are upset over this- they should vote her out of office.

deceit at this level and at this magnitude should be a federal crime...Pelosi oughta be hauled off in chains...stuff like this is just to important to national security...people lie...this is FAR worse

re: #28 debutaunt

Nancy is watching all of you with her scary eyes.

Aiyeee!

re: #34 DaddyG

I don't think the point has been conceded that it is torture... The media and Dems have won the battle in making you think that the debate on that is over...

I think the real point missed in the whole debate is one of accountability:
If you really feel you need to torture someone, then do it, but be prepared to take responsibility for your actions, and defend them on the specific circumstances. Murder is always illegal. However sometime extenuating circumstances show that it was/is justifiable.
Still don't take away the illegality of the act, only explains it.
My disgust is with the senior political leadership: instead or owning up to doing it they lied, and then when caught, threw a few sacrificial lambs to the wolfs.

I see the whole issue in a way it's a litmus test, like "A Few Good Men" - do you side with the Jack Nickleson's position?
Or do you see him as craven for letting two grunts go to prison so he won't get in trouble for doing something he thought right, but went wrong?
The answer is not "you can't handle the truth".
Most people can, give the chance to do so.

re: #35 albusteve

deceit at this level and at this magnitude should be a federal crime...Pelosi oughta be hauled off in chains...stuff like this is just to important to national security...people lie...this is FAR worse

Agreed... To me, this issue is FAR worse than what got BJ Bill Clinton impeached.

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

re: #37 tfc3rid

I don't think the point has been conceded that it is torture... The media and Dems have won the battle in making you think that the debate on that is over...

I say blow the whole friggin thing wide open...all of it

If the libs thought a group of liberal voters were about to be blown up and we had a suspect in custody, you know they would be sending in Nancy Pelosi in a G-string with a brass pole. TORTURE!
/sorry, I'll get the bleach

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

enhanced interrogation

re: #26 MandyManners

leaking like my 90 y/o Grandma

*shaking head*

I agree with you. That remark was pretty distasteful.
Is this worthy of alerting Stinky?

re: #36 MandyManners

Aiyeee!

LOL! If that were a videotape, I'd bet we could hear the taser going off!

It doesn't have to bee to save the lives of thousands, or a ticking tiime bomb. Sometimes it can be to save just one life.

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

Prying out his eyes with a screwdriver. AQI likes that one.

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

I think we all can think of much worse.

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

The point to me is that this guy is a terrorist piece of crap... I want info from him, I could care less how I get it. And no, that does not make me like him because he wants to kill innocent men and women and children, I want to protect them...

It is not permissible to torture a single terrorist, even if to do so would save innocent lives.

/*spit*/

Transparent government my arse. The O administration is clearly cherry picking on the release of classified information for political expediency. They release the interrogation memos and churn up the "torture" debate to please the far left and then refuse to release documents that undoubtedly show that the enhanced interrogation was actually responsible for keeping America safe. The real disgusting part is they claim the memos Cheney is requesting can't be released because it would interfere with a Freedom of Information Act request. Let me see, they want transparency but can't have it because it interferes with a request for transparency ... wtf?

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

Pelosi overreached in her manic pursuit of criminal indictments against Bush Administration people. Her hyperbole has finally gone too far. The CIA is probably really pissed off, for now mostly at Pelosi but if the Dems in power do not do something about Pelosi, that anger will be directed at all Dems and this Administration.

She keeps stepping in it, big time. And it will be very interesting to see how this pans out.

>Waterboarding is not torture and neither are the harsh interrogation tactics.

Waterboarding is torture. Taking someone to the edge of drowning but stopping just short of that is torture. Sorry. Let's not beat around the fucking bush here. We tortured people, but we did so with good reason and with good results, results recognized even by the Obama administration. So people can howl all they want about their moral high ground, I think the people who's lives were saved would rather still be breathing.

The whole "That only happens on TV" thing is besides the point. And a point that too many people miss completely. The ticking time bomb scenario doesn't have to be a nuke in LA going off in an hour for Christ's sake. It can be any imminent attack period. Or, you can use it as an example to discern the nature of people's objections to torture. Are they objecting to it because it's unrealistic and therefore impractical? Or are they objecting to torture because it's just plain wrong 100% of the time no matter what?

The ticking time bomb scenario forces objectors to tortures to answer the question, but more often than not, they dodge. I suspect because they are uncomfortable with admitting that in some situations, torture might be the best option. If torture isn't an unequivocal wrong, then it surely must be condoned in some situations, and that causes a vein to pop in their collective minds.

re: #19 lawhawk

The torture debate is itself tortured - the definition of torture has been stretched and shredded beyond all comprehension. Waterboarding is not torture and neither are the harsh interrogation tactics.
...

This reads eerily like the "gay marriage" debate (defining/re-defining marriage), including the waterboarding reference.

re: #53 Russkilitlover

Pelosi overreached in her manic pursuit of criminal indictments against Bush Administration people. Her hyperbole has finally gone too far. The CIA is probably really pissed off, for now mostly at Pelosi but if the Dems in power do not do something about Pelosi, that anger will be directed at all Dems and this Administration.

She keeps stepping in it, big time. And it will be very interesting to see how this pans out.

I am interested to see what Obama does with this. The CIA is his agency after all. She is pissing on his leg.

re: #40 MandyManners

If fear and discomfort are universally considered torture, then I'd guess that 100% of the U.S. prison population has been tortured.

re: #19 lawhawk

The only thing being tortured here are the facts by certain Democrats who continue putting politics ahead of national security.

That was an excellent post LH, destined for the top 10. thanks.

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

Torture? The rack, iron maiden, and other such devices come to mind. As Leonidas said in #47, prying one's eyes out with a screwdriver. You also have the removal of fingers, toes, limbs. There's the cat o' nine tails, and they also cut people with various devices. Waterboarding is ridiculously mild in comparison to that. As for leaving them in a room without A/C, that's not torture in the least.

Wonder if the CIA is still thrilled about its anti-Bush agenda of the preceding 8 years?

re: #52 turn

Add the fact that the original memos that were released by Obama fall under the exact same FOIA argument Obama is using to kill Cheney's request. Double secret probation FOIA stuff going on in this administration.

re: #57 Lincolntf

If fear and discomfort are universally considered torture, then I'd guess that 100% of the U.S. prison population has been tortured.

Thanksgiving dinner at my in-laws is torture...no doubt in that case.

Just the way we are twisting ourselves into pretzels over this issue should speak volumes about our values and our committment to moral and ethical behavior. If we really were as evil as many on the left think we are, why would we be going through this debate. But the left will never give America credit for anything positive or good. It is the Left's values that are twisted, not America's.

re: #54 Teh Flowah

>Waterboarding is not torture and neither are the harsh interrogation tactics.

Waterboarding is torture. Taking someone to the edge of drowning but stopping just short of that is torture. Sorry. Let's not beat around the fucking bush here. We tortured people, but we did so with good reason and with good results, results recognized even by the Obama administration. So people can howl all they want about their moral high ground, I think the people who's lives were saved would rather still be breathing.

The whole "That only happens on TV" thing is besides the point. And a point that too many people miss completely. The ticking time bomb scenario doesn't have to be a nuke in LA going off in an hour for Christ's sake. It can be any imminent attack period. Or, you can use it as an example to discern the nature of people's objections to torture. Are they objecting to it because it's unrealistic and therefore impractical? Or are they objecting to torture because it's just plain wrong 100% of the time no matter what?

The ticking time bomb scenario forces objectors to tortures to answer the question, but more often than not, they dodge. I suspect because they are uncomfortable with admitting that in some situations, torture might be the best option. If torture isn't an unequivocal wrong, then it surely must be condoned in some situations, and that causes a vein to pop in their collective minds.

No physical harm was caused. They weren't tortured.

Some people would have us be compassionate towards the devil.

re: #54 Teh Flowah

hahaha!...neotorture then

Krauthammer makes a key point:

Our jurisprudence has the "reasonable man" standard. A jury is asked to consider what a reasonable person would do under certain urgent circumstances.

We aren't talking about getting a teen at the mall to confess to shoplifting here... we are talking about getting timely information on potential deadly plots from high level terrorists who are determined to kill infidel westerners and who would do far worse to their enemies of they were in control.

Good luck ever finding qualified intelligence and defense officials to protect us if we continue to throw them to the wolves every time they do something that a segment of our population finds disagreeable. We're going to civilize ourselves into oblivion if were not careful.

Remind me to never ask about what constitutes torture again.

re: #49 tfc3rid

The point to me is that this guy is a terrorist piece of crap... I want info from him, I could care less how I get it. And no, that does not make me like him because he wants to kill innocent men and women and children, I want to protect them...

Great point! I say that because your example is going to lead some to ask, "so, you believe the end justifies the means?" And folks who use that adage are usually doing it to follow up with some example of bad guys using it as an excuse for doing bad stuff.

Nope. They're actually turning that old adage on its head. Properly applied, one looks at the end (result) and then decides what action (means) can be justified to achieve that end.

So, in your example, as far as I'm concerned the terrorists' ends (killing innocents) have no "means" to justify those ends, whereas your "ends" (protecting innocent women and children) could certainly be justified by doing what is necessary (the "means") to achieve that end.

re: #65 Sharmuta

Some people would have us be compassionate towards the devil.

Such compassion has brought us great evil in the past because of an unwillingness to recognize the devil when we see him.

While watching Nancy yesterday I was reminded of this.

re: #57 Lincolntf

If fear and discomfort are universally considered torture, then I'd guess that 100% of the U.S. prison population has been tortured.

There are liberals who are making that very argument.

Froomkin says the "ticking time bomb" scenerio is fantasy. Wasn't the idea of terrorists flying passenger planes into buildings a bit of a stretch too before 09-11-01 Mr. Froomkin? Hmmm?

We were compassionate to saddam. Isn't that enough? Talk about someone who deserved none!

re: #65 Sharmuta

Some people would have us be compassionate towards the devil.

yes...Sympathy for the Devil...I won't post it tho

water boarding never resulted in anyone's permanent injury or death.
this is why the jihadi detainees would rather stay here than go back to
their own countries, where it's often chop chop mayhem and death for them.
we are not dealing w/ people we can reach w/ please and thank you.
these are hardened islamists who are committed to the total destruction of everyone who doesn't submit.
anyone who doesn't take the threat seriously is a fool.
especially those whose knees knock at the thought of harsh interrogation techniques for these savages.

re: #68 MandyManners

Remind me to never ask about what constitutes torture again.

If it's worse than watching Russel Simmons Def Poetry Jam, it's torture. So basically, nothing is torture.

re: #57 Lincolntf

If fear and discomfort are universally considered torture, then I'd guess that 100% of the U.S. prison population has school children have been tortured.

FIFY

re: #19 lawhawk

So, we get what are truly tortured explanations as to how Pelosi suddenly didn't know that waterboarding and EIT were used, when there's sufficient and credible evidence that she was properly informed going back to 2002 and that others in the room - including Democrats - concur with the CIA on this.

The only thing being tortured here are the facts by certain Democrats who continue putting politics ahead of national security.

I found a link on Hot Air that might suggest Pelosi might be technically telling the truth in the "I did not have sexual relations with that women" style. She claims she was briefed that EIT's would be used, that water boarding was one of them, but not told they had been used.
It's a pretty subtle difference IMHO.

justoneminute.typepad.com...] target="_blank"> link./a>

re: #62 Baier

Don't remind me. My in-laws are en route for a weekend stay. I'm hoping some of their BDS has worn off since Thanksgiving.
Another example of "torture" would have to include Basic Training. As all you vets out there know, when they make you remove your mask in the gas chamber, you feel like you can't breathe, you can't speak and you become completely disoriented. It hurts, it's scary as hell and you're completely powerless. Can I sue the DoD for my torture session?

re: #44 Son of the Black Dog

I agree with you. That remark was pretty distasteful.
Is this worthy of alerting Stinky?

For the leaky grandma post? It depends.

re: #75 albusteve

yes...Sympathy for the Devil...I won't post it tho

Yes- it's a bit early. Even though it's only rock-n-roll, and I like it- it is still morning.

re: #50 Spare O'Lake

It is not permissible to torture a single terrorist, even if to do so would save innocent lives.

/*spit*/

Therefore, it is OK to torture and kill innocents, in order to protect terrorists.

re: #53 Russkilitlover

You know you're desperate and out of ideas if you start messing with the CIA like that, they'll burn her and some of the others might just go down in the process too. How stupid is she ... I couldn't be happier.

re: #81 Kosh's Shadow

For the leaky grandma post? It depends.

Stinky does not pamper us, but I am sure the post is safe.

re: #57 Lincolntf

If fear and discomfort are universally considered torture, then I'd guess that 100% of the U.S. prison population has been tortured.

Don't let the ACLU see this post!

re: #80 Lincolntf

Don't remind me. My in-laws are en route for a weekend stay. I'm hoping some of their BDS has worn off since Thanksgiving.
Another example of "torture" would have to include Basic Training. As all you vets out there know, when they make you remove your mask in the gas chamber, you feel like you can't breathe, you can't speak and you become completely disoriented. It hurts, it's scary as hell and you're completely powerless. Can I sue the DoD for my torture session?

I sneaked around the side of the building and acted like I was running out the back door... no gas for me.

I thought Papillon was a great movie. I recommend it for many people on this thread. Highly enjoyable show.

re: #85 Creeping Eruption

Stinky does not pamper us, but I am sure the post is safe.

We depend on Stinky.

re: #79 avanti

Jeez now you're carrying water for Pelosi?

re: #68 MandyManners

Remind me to never ask about what constitutes torture again.

There are lots of differing views.

re: #79 avanti

I found a link on Hot Air that might suggest Pelosi might be technically telling the truth in the "I did not have sexual relations with that women" style. She claims she was briefed that EIT's would be used, that water boarding was one of them, but not told they had been used.
It's a pretty subtle difference BIG FUCKING DODGE IMHO.

link./a>

re: #84 turn

You know you're desperate and out of ideas if you start messing with the CIA like that, they'll burn her and some of the others might just go down in the process too. How stupid is she ... I couldn't be happier.

I know what you mean, but I would rather they extend their efforts against our external enemies, not internal.

re: #85 Creeping Eruption

Stinky does not pamper us, but I am sure the post is safe.

Wonder if the guy luvs his grandma or not?

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

My fathers favorite line when he was frustrated by my and/or my sisters crying ... "stop that crying or I'll really give you something to cry about."

We fearfully believed he would have beat us.

Torture?

re: #59 Honorary Yooper

Torture? The rack, iron maiden, and other such devices come to mind. As Leonidas said in #47, prying one's eyes out with a screwdriver. You also have the removal of fingers, toes, limbs. There's the cat o' nine tails, and they also cut people with various devices. Waterboarding is ridiculously mild in comparison to that. As for leaving them in a room without A/C, that's not torture in the least.

It is to me.

re: #79 avanti

Why would the CIA brief her on something that was not performed?

re: #15 avanti

The ticking time bomb scenario might be rare, but it could happen. I would suggest if they captured one my guy as part of a team about to commit a terrorist attack, the "rules" would be ignored by any administration. While support for 200 plus water boardings to search for general info gathering might be weak, not so if the ticking time bomb issue ever did come up.
i.e. had someone prevented one of the 9-11 planes from being hijacked, no one would questioned how we got the intelligence to stop it.

Interesting attempt to move the goalposts and redefine the issue...general information? WTF is general information? Um, we've waterboarded KSM to find out how long he's been a member of AQ? 3 high ranking captured AQ terrorists were subjected to this EIT after every other non-EIT interogation method failed to disclose any information about potential terrorist attacks that these terrorists would have direct knowledge of - like the planned attack on the Library Tower in LA which was broken up from the information gained from EIT.

The hypocrisy of the left around the cheapening of the term torture being scored for political points is beyond appalling. Yet, these same idiots would be the first to position themselves to use any successful terror attack as a cudgel on the Republicans - directly saying the Republicans failed to protect the country. Your post is rife with the same moral and ethical bankruptcy that calls for politics to come first as opposed to defending the American people.

If you need a lesson on what torture really is - take a hard look at what AQ in Iraq did to our soldiers they captured, to Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, to what the Taliban does regularly to girls and women in schools, to what Saddam and his cretinous kids did to their own people. Save us your fake moral equivilancy.

re: #95 Bobibutu

My fathers favorite line when he was frustrated by my and/or my sisters crying ... "stop that crying or I'll really give you something to cry about."

We fearfully believed he would have beat us.

Torture?

Ed, is that You?

re: #83 Alouette

Therefore, it is OK to torture and kill innocents, in order to protect terrorists.

They have cream to eliminate those stretch marks.

re: #86 Kosh's Shadow

Don't let the ACLU see this post!

Where do you think half of the ACLU lawyers got their degrees? /

re: #82 Sharmuta

Yes- it's a bit early. Even though it's only rock-n-roll, and I like it- it is still morning.

it's good for some Sunday morning mayhem...my second wife hated the Stones so I used to wake her up with some Bitch or Honkeytonk Women...

re: #94 Honorary Yooper

Wonder if the guy luvs his grandma or not?

Of course. she gets lots of huggies.

re: #95 Bobibutu

My fathers favorite line when he was frustrated by my and/or my sisters crying ... "stop that crying or I'll really give you something to cry about."

We fearfully believed he would have beat us.

Torture?

Yep, according to some.

re: #96 Kosh's Shadow

It is to me.

It's uncomfortable, but not torture. A lot of folks have to get by without A/C in the hot summer. Shoot, Gitmo probably gets some nice sea breezes we miss here inland.

re: #95 Bobibutu

My fathers favorite line when he was frustrated by my and/or my sisters crying ... "stop that crying or I'll really give you something to cry about."

We fearfully believed he would have beat us.

Torture?

We had the same father!

re: #77 Baier

If it's worse than watching Russel Simmons Def Poetry Jam, it's torture. So basically, nothing is torture.

What about Vogon poetry? I think that qualifies, if Ford Prefect preferred to be thrown out the airlock.

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

I agree, it is torture. When I first read about it, and prior to the memo's release, I though it was a occasional practice, and gave it a "ends justifies the means" pass. Once I found it was used almost 300 times with one captive, I had more concerns about the rules.
While I accept almost any technique in a smoking gun scenario, 200 plus water boardings seemed a bit to casual a use.

I'm afraid that the long term results of this debate and the damage that does or does not result hinges primarily on the semantic battle of how it is characterized. And that boils down to whether this is called torture or not. If the torture side wins, then that is all that will matter in the long run. People will forget the details and the nuances of the debate and the label of torturers will forever be affixed to those who tried to combat the evil of Islamofascism.
That cannot be allowed to happen IMO and the fight needs to be waged vigorously at the semantic level. We need to wrestle the term torture away from those that will forever use it as a cudgel to prove that America is evil.
Waterboarding is not torture. Period.

Pelosi vs CIA (continued)

Goss, however, wrote in The Washington Post on April 25 that he and Pelosi and their counterparts in the Senate had been briefed that "the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists."

"We understood what the CIA was doing," he said.

So who were these "counterparts in the Senate"? Who are the "we" that Goss is referring to?

re: #103 Creeping Eruption

Of course. she gets lots of huggies.

But never loses her Poise.

re: #50 Spare O'Lake

It is not permissible to torture a single terrorist, even if to do so would save innocent lives.

/*spit*/

The Geneva Convention is (very intentionally, IMO) quite vague. What is "severe pain?" My wife is a physician, and she tells me that she'll do something to a guy in one room, and he'll cry like a baby, then the same to a woman in the next, and she doesn't even flinch. "Severe" is incredibly vague. Also, at the time the GC was written, domestic police forces worldwide routinely used what we'd now call excessive force. As SOP. In the context of the time period the GC was written in, "severe" is likely more severe than we'd accept now, but it is none the less not at all clear. I think Krauthammer nailed this one.

As a reality check, BTW, anyone who claims that this somehow diminishes the US as a nation, or in other's view of us... we did FAR worse, every single day of WW2, and that didn't seem to be a problem, did it?

re: #54 Teh Flowah

Waterboarding is torture. Taking someone to the edge of drowning but stopping just short of that is torture.

Congress, particularly after 1/1/07 had plenty of opportunities to specifically define the EIT of waterboarding as torture and outlaw it. They did not. Neither did they take any action to cease funding operations that employed EIT. EIT is not torture under any reasonable definition of the word. To imply that it is cheapen's the horrific nature of those who actually do use torture as a point of policy.

re: #106 Honorary Yooper

It's uncomfortable, but not torture. A lot of folks have to get by without A/C in the hot summer. Shoot, Gitmo probably gets some nice sea breezes we miss here inland.

Morning HY! Heck, when I was in sonar school in Key West back in the 60's, we didn't have air conditioning in the barracks. (Did in the school because of the equipment.) We wore one uniform to school in the morning, and changed into a second one for the afternoon, which meant we were ironing two sets of whites every night.

Who knew I was being tortured? I demand reparations!

;-)

re: #109 avanti

I agree, it is torture. When I first read about it, and prior to the memo's release, I though it was a occasional practice, and gave it a "ends justifies the means" pass. Once I found it was used almost 300 times with one captive, I had more concerns about the rules.
While I accept almost any technique in a smoking gun scenario, 200 plus water boardings seemed a bit to casual a use.

what's the frequency Kenneth?

re: #109 avanti

I agree, it is torture. When I first read about it, and prior to the memo's release, I though it was a occasional practice, and gave it a "ends justifies the means" pass. Once I found it was used almost 300 times with one captive, I had more concerns about the rules.
While I accept almost any technique in a smoking gun scenario, 200 plus water boardings seemed a bit to casual a use.

What is your cut-off number for acceptable?

re: #109 avanti

I agree, it is torture. When I first read about it, and prior to the memo's release, I though it was a occasional practice, and gave it a "ends justifies the means" pass. Once I found it was used almost 300 times with one captive, I had more concerns about the rules.
While I accept almost any technique in a smoking gun scenario, 200 plus water boardings seemed a bit to casual a use.

I would say anything that can be done 300 times without making the subject talk is not torture.

Waterboarding is regularly used as part of the training some of our troops endure.
There have been several instances in shopping malls and on campus in this country where little lefty chicks have undergone waterboarding so they can whine and go "oooh that's so awful" to show just how bad we are.

re: #90 Leonidas Hoplite

Jeez now you're carrying water for Pelosi?

I thought I was clear that the Hot Air link just raised the possibility that she might not technically be untruthful in a "Clinton " way.My fondest wish would be that the thing blows up in her face and she's tossed under the bus.

re: #109 avanti

I agree, it is torture. When I first read about it, and prior to the memo's release, I though it was a occasional practice, and gave it a "ends justifies the means" pass. Once I found it was used almost 300 times with one captive, I had more concerns about the rules.
While I accept almost any technique in a smoking gun scenario, 200 plus water boardings seemed a bit to casual a use.

It was 300 "pours of water in the nostrils" not 300 sessions. And the "victim" was a top Al Qaeda honcho. What would you have done? Served him herbal tea with a sprig of mint?

re: #106 Honorary Yooper

It's uncomfortable, but not torture. A lot of folks have to get by without A/C in the hot summer. Shoot, Gitmo probably gets some nice sea breezes we miss here inland.

I was somewhat joking, but by 80, I am quite uncomfortable and have trouble concentrating, especially if it is humid, and I'm inside where there isn't a good flow of air. I don't sleep well at all over 75 degrees.

re: #92 VegasRick

Yep, no question about that, slimy even.

re: #120 avanti

Why is it just a wish? Call/write whatever Lefty it is that you voted for last November and tell him/her that you won't tolerate such an abominable human being as the banner carrier for your Party.

re: #118 brookly red

I would say anything that can be done 300 times without making the subject talk is not torture.

And the reasonable man theory would agree with you. There is no friggin way it can be considered torture if you use it on a guy 50, 60, 80 times and he does not talk. Something that can't make a terrorist talk until the 200th or 300th time is not torture. Unless maybe he finally got bored and talked.

re: #123 avanti

Yep, no question about that, slimy even.

I finally get to give you an upding.

re: #21 Baier

He was born in Canada...sadly for us.

annex Canada: problem solved.

re: #121 Alouette

It was 300 "pours of water in the nostrils" not 300 sessions. And the "victim" was a top Al Qaeda honcho. What would you have done? Served him herbal tea with a sprig of mint?

Maybe he should have been served with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

re: #122 Kosh's Shadow

I was somewhat joking, but by 80, I am quite uncomfortable and have trouble concentrating, especially if it is humid, and I'm inside where there isn't a good flow of air. I don't sleep well at all over 75 degrees.

I concur...here in ABQ no matter what the daytime temp, it always drops nearly exactly 30deg every night...remarkable climate

re: #119 Capitalist Tool

Waterboarding is regularly used as part of the training some of our troops endure.
There have been several instances in shopping malls and on campus in this country where little lefty chicks have undergone waterboarding so they can whine and go "oooh that's so awful" to show just how bad we are.

I know a guy who was waterboarded to see what it was like. He said that its terrifying while its happening, though once you're done you feel fine, and more relieved than anything else. He's apolitical- he wanted to see what it was like before he formed an opinion on it. Have you ever been waterboarded?

What's torture?
Okay. You asked for it.

In the Stalin era, the Hungarian secret police (AVH) would insert a glass pipet into a detainee's urethra, and then smash it.

Don't have a link. I read about it, decades ago, in a history of the 1956 Hungarian Uprising.

re: #106 Honorary Yooper

It's uncomfortable, but not torture. A lot of folks have to get by without A/C in the hot summer. Shoot, Gitmo probably gets some nice sea breezes we miss here inland.

* * * *
Shoot, Europeans pay good Euros to Fidel & Raul, to party in Cuba's tropical breeze.

I criticized Krauthammer on this before, that there is any kind of bright lines between what is torture and what is not, and that there is any kind of bright line between WHEN to torture and when to not. Both are continuums, sliding scales.

So when some leftard criticizes however stupidly the scenario Krauthammer outlines, well, it just ain't that easy in any case. What if it's not a ticking time bomb, but a gang that has set off ten roadside bombs and rumors are they are likely to do so again? Make up your own scenarios.

This whole kerfuffle is Alinksy-style crap, take some tendentious point and blow it up as if it were some central and general issue. It is not. Getting lost in the details, is a trap for fools. We don't want to torture, any more than we want to kill, but we DO kill under color of law, and we may want to torture under color of law, too.

re: #109 avanti

I agree, it is torture. When I first read about it, and prior to the memo's release, I though it was a occasional practice, and gave it a "ends justifies the means" pass. Once I found it was used almost 300 times with one captive, I had more concerns about the rules.
While I accept almost any technique in a smoking gun scenario, 200 plus water boardings seemed a bit to casual a use.

Define "casual" in this context. Casual with regard to frequency means "irregular" or "occasional" which goes against your point. Casual with regard to intent means something VERY different entirely and implies that the practicers were informal and relaxed about doing it (or doing it when not necessary -or "for kicks").

I think that it has been demonstrated that the process involved in getting approval for waterboarding shows that the process was anything but casual.

You people all need to get off Nancys back. I mean, come on, she only lied about S&M...

re: #40 MandyManners

If making some believe that he's drowning is not torture, what is?

A manual for torture used by Al-Qaeda in Iraq:
[Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

re: #44 Son of the Black Dog

I agree with you. That remark was pretty distasteful.
Is this worthy of alerting Stinky?

i thought it was funny as hell.

re: #41 albusteve

I say blow the whole friggin thing wide open...all of it

As usual, albusteve, I agree. Let's roll.

re: #138 redc1c4

i thought it was funny as hell.

I did too...I'm stealing it in fact

re: #54 Teh Flowah

and that causes a vein to pop in their collective minds.

Or in other words - heads exploding. Strictly speaking the definition of torture is the act of willfully inflicting severe pain. Last time I checked getting water up my nose didn't hurt that much (face plant water skiing) but the broken ribs I got by getting bucked off a horse did cause what I would describe as SEVERE pain. The key issue here in my mind is the degree of the severity of pain that draws the line between enhanced interrogation and torture. Bush asked some very intelligent legal minds to use their judgment and draw that line and I agree with where they put it.

re: #131 Altermite

...Have you ever been waterboarded?

I've been water- skiing- that's some water up the nostrils!

No I haven't. That doesn't mean I have no right to consider the present flap over waterboarding as ridiculous.

re: #119 Capitalist Tool

Waterboarding is regularly used as part of the training some of our troops endure.
There have been several instances in shopping malls and on campus in this country where little lefty chicks have undergone waterboarding so they can whine and go "oooh that's so awful" to show just how bad we are.

To be fair most lefty chicks and jihadists have an aversion to bathing so this would be traumatic by its very nature. Perhaps it would be more humane to use patchoulli or sand? /

re: #97 tfc3rid

Why would the CIA brief her on something that was not performed?

There is no question congress was briefed on techniques that could be used and no one bitched. The fact that they may have been used after giving congress a heads up, but did not tell them is a pretty subtle twist of facts.

re: #124 buzzsawmonkey

That mint was not fresh. Torture!

* * * *
The Al Qaeda 9/11 planner's mint was touched by an infidel, haraam! That was torture too, helpfully enumerated in Al Qaeda's "How to Accuse Americans of Torture for Idiots" guide.

Genetically modified corn syrup instead of Cuban sugar in their tea is really talkin' torture for enlightened, organic Al Qaedans.

What torture?
Sometimes I think that folks are gonna win over the left by adopting their false argument in a different language.
Get a grip.
This is a war.
The treatment these dirtbags got to even be considered torture is ignorant it make my brain bleed.

"Ticking time bomb" is an easy scenario to respond to. You do what it takes to save lives, including breaking the law. You then plead guilty, and do your twenty years in the federal slammer for breaking the law. If the President of the U.S. has any political sense, he pardons you.

re: #132 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What's torture?
Okay. You asked for it.

In the Stalin era, the Hungarian secret police (AVH) would insert a glass pipet into a detainee's urethra, and then smash it.

Don't have a link. I read about it, decades ago, in a history of the 1956 Hungarian Uprising.

Just try standing on your toes for a while.

That's torture. Really, that was a technique used by the NKVD.

Or sitting in a chair with the seat taken out.

Never mind having your fingers smashed in a drawer.

re: #132 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What's torture?
Okay. You asked for it.

In the Stalin era, the Hungarian secret police (AVH) would insert a glass pipet into a detainee's urethra, and then smash it.

Don't have a link. I read about it, decades ago, in a history of the 1956 Hungarian Uprising.

* * * *
Abortions without anesthesia were standard "operating procedure" in the socialist republics. Don't know what other contraception methods were allowed there, if any.

The reason Pelosi raised no objection to waterboarding at the time,

was that she was afraid for her sorry ass and didn't give one shit about what it took to protect it.

re: #147 quickjustice

"Ticking time bomb" is an easy scenario to respond to. You do what it takes to save lives, including breaking the law. You then plead guilty, and do your twenty years in the federal slammer for breaking the law. If the President of the U.S. has any political sense, he pardons you.

Actually, I'd plead not guilty, not contest any of the facts and see if 12 of my peers would convict me...

re: #142 Capitalist Tool

I've been water- skiing- that's some water up the nostrils!

No I haven't. That doesn't mean I have no right to consider the present flap over waterboarding as ridiculous.

I was skiing in Utah one time and severely face planted in fairly deep powder and a steep slope...my arms went down into the snow and my nose and mouth filled up snow so I could't breath...man I freaked OUT!...I trie to spit but it didn't really work very well...I aspirated snow and finally gagged myself and blew enough snow out that I could breath...very scary...mu buddies all laughed at me when I told them about it...DRINK!

re: #142 Capitalist Tool

I've been water- skiing- that's some water up the nostrils!

No I haven't. That doesn't mean I have no right to consider the present flap over waterboarding as ridiculous.

Of course you have that right. I am saying that it seems unfair to dismiss it as something inconsequential. Honestly, if it wasn't unpleasent, it wouldn't be an interrogation tactic. Do I think that being unpleasent makes it torture? No- but I don't think that sneering at the people who do try it as 'a bunch of lefty chicks' without having experienced it oneself isn't going to strengthen ones position on it.

re: #152 albusteve

I was skiing in Utah one time and severely face planted in fairly deep powder and a steep slope...my arms went down into the snow and my nose and mouth filled up snow so I could't breath...man I freaked OUT!...I trie to spit but it didn't really work very well...I aspirated snow and finally gagged myself and blew enough snow out that I could breath...very scary...mu buddies all laughed at me when I told them about it...DRINK!

New interrogation technique: Snow-boarding.

Looks like the abuse pictures are coming out. So Obama can say he was against it. What a miserable POS.

re: #148 Dianna

Just try standing on your toes for a while.

That's torture. Really, that was a technique used by the NKVD.

Or sitting in a chair with the seat taken out.

Never mind having your fingers smashed in a drawer.

The idea of FGM does it for me.

re: #154 DaddyG

New interrogation technique: Snow-boarding.

sometimes they torture me...I hate boarders

re: #155 kansas

Looks like the abuse pictures are coming out. So Obama can say he was against it. What a miserable POS.

And by labeling them as abuse pictures along with labeling the waterboarding as torture the left has unilaterally decided the terms of the debate.

How hard exactly do you think Al Queda operatives laugh about us fretting over putting panties on someones head or making them form a naked human pyramid as they use an electric drill to perferate someones body?

/spit/

re: #146 YankeeBaseball

What torture?
Sometimes I think that folks are gonna win over the left by adopting their false argument in a different language.
Get a grip.
This is a war.
The treatment these dirtbags got to even be considered torture is ignorant it make my brain bleed.

It's a issue that we'll never get full agreement on. As a example, I was watching Fox TV's coverage of the LA cops kick to the head of a suspect laying spread eagled on the ground. To me, it's a slam dunk, no excuse act of over the top police brutality. Still, the one gal on Fox thought since the victim was clearly a bad guy, he deserved a kick in the head even though he's given up after a chase.
Different people are going to see the same issue, 180 degrees differently.

re: #151 JustABill

Jury nullification certainly is another legitimate defense strategy, assuming you can get a public jury trial.

re: #149 alegrias

* * * *
Abortions without anesthesia were standard "operating procedure" in the socialist republics. Don't know what other contraception methods were allowed there, if any.

It was hard to find birth control; Russian women, particularly, routinely had many abortions. As you note, without anesthesia.

Before you condemn these women, remember what a terrible quality of life the Soviets provided.

re: #155 kansas

Looks like the abuse pictures are coming out. So Obama can say he was against it. What a miserable POS.

Did the court over rule the President already ?

re: #159 avanti

Actually, sometimes the same person sees the issue totally differently, depending on whether or not it's campaign season.
Paging Speaker Pelosi...

re: #159 avanti
All the more reason we shouldn't be politicizing and re-evaluating the events that were approved by congress and carried out by the intelligence professionals we hired to protect us.

re: #156 debutaunt

The idea of FGM does it for me.

Me, too.

re: #148 Dianna

Just try standing on your toes for a while.

That's torture. Really, that was a technique used by the NKVD. /blockquote>

RUSSIAN TORTURE!

Youtube Video

re: #112 redstateredneck

But never loses her Poise.

Well, that Depends.

re: #109 avanti

I agree, it is torture. When I first read about it, and prior to the memo's release, I though it was a occasional practice, and gave it a "ends justifies the means" pass. Once I found it was used almost 300 times with one captive, I had more concerns about the rules.
While I accept almost any technique in a smoking gun scenario, 200 plus water boardings seemed a bit to casual a use.

Actually, as usual, your information is incorrect. The numbers, from this Justice Department memo defines the specific rules and framework around the application of waterboarding. The numbers, 83 times for Zubayah in August 2002, and 183 times for KSM in March 2003 are the number of times water was applied - which by the policies defined were applied for up to 6 times per session for at least 10 seconds and no more than 40 seconds with a 24 hour max application time of 12 minutes. You implication is that there were xxx (the real number is 183 - not 200 or 300 (or is it now 400 given your tendency to creep the numbers upwards?)) sessions done on these 3 high value captives.

And once again, let's put this into some degree of perspective. A successful Library Tower attack could have easily killed as many as 9/11 - 3K people. Your position remains that doing something that we do to our own soldiers is SERE training - in order to save thousands of American lives -is morally equivilent to the Taliban executing accused adulterers, Iran hanging gays, Saddam's thugs dismembering family members of potential political enemies, and AQ in Iraq using this manual for their interogation methods?

Take a look at that last link / item. That represents the definition of torture. When this country starts doing that, I will join you in outrage.

re: #129 Son of the Black Dog

Maybe he should have been served with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

But NOT the Comfy Chair!

re: #159 avanti

It's a issue that we'll never get full agreement on. As a example, I was watching Fox TV's coverage of the LA cops kick to the head of a suspect laying spread eagled on the ground. To me, it's a slam dunk, no excuse act of over the top police brutality. Still, the one gal on Fox thought since the victim was clearly a bad guy, he deserved a kick in the head even though he's given up after a chase.
Different people are going to see the same issue, 180 degrees differently.

Yeah, rob people, endanger lives in a car chase, and then give up and ask for a lawyer. That perp was lucky the copy didn't drop kick his head 10 times and then whack him with a brick.

re: #162 avanti

Did the court over rule the President already ?

No, they are coming from another country. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

re: #168 Athos

My #137

re: #169 Athos

But NOT the Comfy Chair!

What about the apparatus?

re: #171 kansas

No doubt the Administration "had nothing to do with" the release of the photos.
Obama has a very convenient habit of not being in the room when this kind of garbage is going on. Or so he claims.

re: #153 Altermite

Of course you have that right. I am saying that it seems unfair to dismiss it as something inconsequential. Honestly, if it wasn't unpleasent, it wouldn't be an interrogation tactic. Do I think that being unpleasent makes it torture? No- but I don't think that sneering at the people who do try it as 'a bunch of lefty chicks' without having experienced it oneself isn't going to strengthen ones position on it.

They were lefty chicks. Ok, college girls. If they can do it in the mall to make a point...
I have had water poured over a tea- towel over my face back in the 60's when I was a kid... all of my buddies did, too. We'd heard about some 'Chinese water torture" and thought we'd check it out. I had to have been at least 12.
Is this what is known as waterboarding? Big hairy deal.
Of course, we also had bb gun fights...

re: #174 Lincolntf

No doubt the Administration "had nothing to do with" the release of the photos.
Obama has a very convenient habit of not being in the room when this kind of garbage is going on. Or so he claims.

Or just not hearing it even if he is there. He has 20 years practice with that, Wright?

re: #174 Lincolntf

No doubt the Administration "had nothing to do with" the release of the photos.
Obama has a very convenient habit of not being in the room when this kind of garbage is going on. Or so he claims.

Anytime this guy makes a decision that seems to be good for the US, you can count it being a ruse.

re: #107 redstateredneck

We had the same father!

An attorney - great communication skills in the courtroom and in negotiations - but a total failure communicating with his children.

re: #159 avanti

The moron cop's actions are projected by the left to create an image of the treatment of prisoners.
Only ten times worse.

re: #163 Lincolntf

Actually, sometimes the same person sees the issue totally differently, depending on whether or not it's campaign season.
Paging Speaker Pelosi...

No disagreement there. Polosi sat quietly through the discussions of EIT's, but now is outraged that they were used without telling her.

re: #179 YankeeBaseball

The moron cop's actions are projected by the left to create an image of the treatment of prisoners.
Only ten times worse.

What about the moron perp? Seems like it should be pretty easy not to infuriate someone to the point they want to kick your head in. I have always been able to avoid being abused by police.

It is sad if not down right frightening that Nancy Pelosi is in such a position of power or in Congress to begin with and way too many others of her ilk in Congress as well. I am grateful to Charles Krauthammer who has the courage to write the truth about Pelosi.

re: #173 Kosh's Shadow

What about the apparatus?

(Replying to myself with the reference)
That is torture

re: #182 Miss Molly

It is sad if not down right frightening that Nancy Pelosi is in such a position of power or in Congress to begin with and way too many others of her ilk in Congress as well. I am grateful to Charles Krauthammer who has the courage to write the truth about Pelosi.

We'll have to see how NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc, cover this. Otherwise "If the truth falls in the forest and there is no one there to report on it, is it the truth?

re: #158 DaddyG

its all so sad to me.
and it will clearly boost the islamists fortunes, they can smell fear and self doubt.

if you can think critically even a few steps ahead, you know whats coming. unfortunately the liberals either dont,cant or wont think far enough ahead to see the ramifications of what thier doing or they plan on blaming the catastrophic "man caused event" on the right.

they are weakening our country and the west to external threats in order to crush domestic oponents. so in the end I cant reasonably do anything other than question thier patriotism or desire to keep my family safe.

If liberals have a problem with harsh interrogation techniques, then that's fine, they have a right to their screwy opinions. I would actually agree with them in that case, and I don't think that these sort of techniques should be used to save their liberal lives either. If for example Nancy Pelosi were kidnapped by terrorists and her life was on the line, and the only way to save her would be by harsh interrogations of a captured detainee, then obviously the answer would be to just let her die, since the advanced interrogation of thugs is morally wrong to those sorts of people.

Liberals, leftists and other terror apologists shouldn't be allowed to put other people's lives in danger with their sick and twisted ideas, and I sure would hope that if there ever was a real 'ticking bomb' scenario where real American lives were in danger, and there was a detainee that had crucial info pertaining to it, then they should simply torture the hell out of the person, using whatever techniques were necessary to extract the necessary intel.

re: #10 debutaunt

Froomkin sounds like a made-up name on the Onion.

If you've seen his picture with his curly hair and unruly beard, he really looks like a clown. Without the greasepaint.

Liberals, leftists and other terror apologists shouldn't be allowed to put other people's lives in danger with their sick and twisted ideas

unfortunately thats exactly the looking glass scenario we fell thru in nov.

Kansas -- I have no doubt that ABC, NBS, CBS, CNN, MSNBC will show as little as possible about the Pelosi mess and what they will show will most likely be a lie as well. But, hopefully it is too late as this may truely be the "cat out of the bag" problem for Pelosi. This story seems to have created a life of its own and with luck will go on until the CIA destroys her.

re: #159 avanti

It's a issue that we'll never get full agreement on. As a example, I was watching Fox TV's coverage of the LA cops kick to the head of a suspect laying spread eagled on the ground. To me, it's a slam dunk, no excuse act of over the top police brutality. Still, the one gal on Fox thought since the victim was clearly a bad guy, he deserved a kick in the head even though he's given up after a chase.
Different people are going to see the same issue, 180 degrees differently.

There is a great deal of truth in that.

I am tired of hearing these pointless arguments over whether waterboarding is or is not torture.

1. First define "torture".

2. Then define "waterboarding" as the US interrogators performed it at Gitmo. (Not as the Japanese did it in Batan or how the Inquisition did it in medieval Spain.)

3. Then you can determine whether waterboarding as performed by US interrogators is torture or not.

4. Then consider whether or not any existing conditions, contexts or situations (ie. the ticking time-bomb scenario) alter the moral judgment involved.

re: #189 Miss Molly

Good Golly, I hope you are right.

re: #54 Teh Flowah

Waterboarding is torture. Taking someone to the edge of drowning but stopping just short of that is torture.

We disagree. You are not taking anyone to the edge of drowning. There is no real threat that they might drown. The brain, no matter how much you think you can reason with it (I can just hold my breath), is directed into panic mode.

I have experienced this. I thought I could hold my breath. I practiced holding my breath. I knew that no one would let me drown... that everyone in the room was invested in me living through the experience...

AND I LASTED ONLY 8 SECONDS.

re: #159 avanti

It's a issue that we'll never get full agreement on. As a example, I was watching Fox TV's coverage of the LA cops kick to the head of a suspect laying spread eagled on the ground. To me, it's a slam dunk, no excuse act of over the top police brutality. Still, the one gal on Fox thought since the victim was clearly a bad guy, he deserved a kick in the head even though he's given up after a chase.
Different people are going to see the same issue, 180 degrees differently.

So true. For example, if it was a white riot cop lying on the ground and a black protester kicking him, you would find plenty of your friends on the left cheering him on.

re: #194 Kenneth

Another sad but true point.

re: #54 Teh Flowah

>Waterboarding is not torture and neither are the harsh interrogation tactics.

Waterboarding is torture. Taking someone to the edge of drowning but stopping just short of that is torture. Sorry. Let's not beat around the fucking bush here. We tortured people, but we did so with good reason and with good results, results recognized even by the Obama administration. So people can howl all they want about their moral high ground, I think the people who's lives were saved would rather still be breathing.

The whole "That only happens on TV" thing is besides the point. And a point that too many people miss completely. The ticking time bomb scenario doesn't have to be a nuke in LA going off in an hour for Christ's sake. It can be any imminent attack period. Or, you can use it as an example to discern the nature of people's objections to torture. Are they objecting to it because it's unrealistic and therefore impractical? Or are they objecting to torture because it's just plain wrong 100% of the time no matter what?

The ticking time bomb scenario forces objectors to tortures to answer the question, but more often than not, they dodge. I suspect because they are uncomfortable with admitting that in some situations, torture might be the best option. If torture isn't an unequivocal wrong, then it surely must be condoned in some situations, and that causes a vein to pop in their collective minds.

Waterboarding is not torture, just because you say it is. Torture is prying someone's eyes out with a screwdriver (see #47, above). Torture is cutting off someone's head with a knife. Torture is chopping off hands and shoving things in places where they were not meant to go. Torture results in excruciating pain, and often permanent injury or disfigurement, or death. Making someone uncomfortable, or making them "feel" like their drowning is not torture.

I agree with several posts that in the partisan rhetoric the meaning of torture has been greatly stretched and twisted.

All this tortured (!) justification of past U.S. actions ignores one salient fact: for the really ugly torture, we don't sully our lily-white hands. We outsource those cases to Egypt. Where waterboarding is a weekend sport.

Fie!

We should just own it. "Yeah, when we think it's necessary, we torture people. You gotta problem with that?"

At least it'd be honest.

This era will come to be known as the time when patriots had to fight for the opportunity to defend the nation and the Constitution, over the objections of appeasers and self-promoters. Not only are we saddled with those who will not defend themselves, but these cowards seek to prevent our defense, period.

You see it in the disdain of the military and law enforcement, you see it in the mockery of the tea parties, and you see it in the viciousness shown towards those who speak out.

Honestly, Sam Adams could hold a press conference this afternoon and have as much relevance:

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”

re: #193 Buck

Very true. Whether waterboarding is torture or not depends entriely on how it is performed. WWII Japanese style waterboarding was definately torture. Spanish Inquisition waterboarding was torture.

If waterboarding as performed by the US military in SERE training is not torture, then waterboarding performed by the same professionals following the same procedure on terrorist detainees is not torture. It doesn't matter how much the subjects don't like it or how much panic they feel. A practice which in one circumstance is not torture does not suddenly become torture in another circumstance. Or in Pelosi's case, a few years later when the political winds have shifted.

re: #137 NelsFree

A manual for torture used by Al-Qaeda in Iraq:
[Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

Where is the ACLU's zeal in getting these published?
Anti-American bastards.

When we do it, it's not torture.

Because we are good.

By definition.

Gag.

re: #65 Sharmuta

Some people would have us be compassionate towards the devil.

And they'd be liberals wouldn't they...

re: #181 kansas

It does not give the cop the right to abuse him.
That is not his job.
He is suppose to be a professional trained to handle situations like this and his fellow officers should also be there to uphold those standards.
He should have been smacked up a few times before he reached his present predicament.

re: #200 LGoPs

It is important to mention, Al Qaeda's victims were tortured for the sole purpose of terror. There was no "ticking time-bomb" & no interest in extracting information. They were tortured to make the victim suffer and to terrorize the populace into co-operating.

re: #198 jcbunga

This era will come to be known as the time when patriots had to fight for the opportunity to defend the nation and the Constitution, over the objections of appeasers and self-promoters. Not only are we saddled with those who will not defend themselves, but these cowards seek to prevent our defense, period.

You see it in the disdain of the military and law enforcement, you see it in the mockery of the tea parties, and you see it in the viciousness shown towards those who speak out.

Honestly, Sam Adams could hold a press conference this afternoon and have as much relevance:

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”

Self-important ass.

As long as the "tea parties" continue to invite insane people like Pamela Geller and Alan Keyes as speakers, they get zero support from me.

And you are not Sam Adams. This is not 1776. And your fellow countrymen who disagree with you are not traitors.

The only thing that needs to be remembered is that those who are complaining about the "torture" of our enemies are doing so because they are the allies of those enemies.

Leftists whine and throw fits anytime our country does something that is in our best interest. They are the ideological remnants of the Soviet 5th column that waged the cold war against us from within our own borders. Do not be fooled by their sophistry or their feigned pleas of allegiance to our nation. They are the enemy, and should be treated accordingly.

re: #201 Cato the Elder

When we do it, it's not torture.

Because we are good.

By definition.

Gag.

You are smarter than that, putting up a strawman argument and then mocking it. Try a reasoned argument, ok?

It is not a question of who does what or why. Torture is a question of what is done & how. That is all.

If waterboarding as performed by the US military in SERE training is not torture, then waterboarding performed following the same procedure on terrorist detainees is not torture.

re: #205 Cato the Elder

Self-important ass.

As long as the "tea parties" continue to invite insane people like Pamela Geller and Alan Keyes as speakers, they get zero support from me.

And you are not Sam Adams. This is not 1776. And your fellow countrymen who disagree with you are not traitors.

Wuh?

re: #208 jcbunga

Wuh?

You heard me.

re: #209 Cato the Elder

You heard me.

Now we see the violence inherent in the system. Help, I'm being repressed!

I could not have made my point, or Sam's any better. We're indebted.

...oh, and kiss my self-important ass.

re: #209 Cato the Elder

You heard me.

Hey cato, the organizers of the tea parties are not the same organization that Atlas Shrieks belongs to. There was a post about that here yesterday. I think you are mistaken, she is simply riding on their coat tails.

re: #207 Kenneth

You are smarter than that, putting up a strawman argument and then mocking it. Try a reasoned argument, ok?

It is not a question of who does what or why. Torture is a question of what is done & how. That is all.

If waterboarding as performed by the US military in SERE training is not torture, then waterboarding performed following the same procedure on terrorist detainees is not torture.

I'll take Chris Hitchens's word for it, how about that?

And nobody addressed my previous post about our outsourcing the real torture to Egypt.

People here scream about moral relativity all the time as if it were a liberal disease only.

I'll accept torture as necessary in some cases, but not the pusillanimous pussy-footing lie that we don't do it.

These techniques are supposed to be extremely uncomfortable in order to get the detainee to talk, otherwise what's the point? If we are defining torture as being anything that is uncomfortable, well heavy metal and acid rock music should be made illegal, IMHO.

re: #211 jcbunga

Now we see the violence inherent in the system. Help, I'm being repressed!

I could not have made my point, or Sam's any better. We're indebted.

...oh, and kiss my self-important ass.

You and sock-puppet Sam can gey kakn oyfn yam.

re: #213 Cato the Elder

I'll take Chris Hitchens's word for it, how about that?

And nobody addressed my previous post about our outsourcing the real torture to Egypt.

People here scream about moral relativity all the time as if it were a liberal disease only.

I'll accept torture as necessary in some cases, but not the pusillanimous pussy-footing lie that we don't do it.

Then our patriotic leaders, who control the White House and both houses of Congress, should imemdiately cut off funding and put an end to these atrocities.

Dissent is patriotic.

Stop this endless war.

For the children...and transparency.

re: #212 turn

Hey cato, the organizers of the tea parties are not the same organization that Atlas Shrieks belongs to. There was a post about that here yesterday. I think you are mistaken, she is simply riding on their coat tails.

She and Keyes are invited speakers at the next D.C. tea party. Who is riding whom?

re: #213 Cato the Elder

I'll take Chris Hitchens's word for it, how about that?

And nobody addressed my previous post about our outsourcing the real torture to Egypt.

People here scream about moral relativity all the time as if it were a liberal disease only.

I'll accept torture as necessary in some cases, but not the pusillanimous pussy-footing lie that we don't do it.

AS we debate it, the terrorists know that the US interrogators will not let them die. The terrorists know that there is a doctor standing by, and taking their blood pressure and pulse every once and awhile. The terrorist knows that they will not actually drown...

And yet it is still a horrible experience that makes them want to say 'Fuk this... Allah aint making me stronger... Allah aint helping me here... I want this to stop and I don't REALLY care about those bastards back home. This is all about ME now... I just don't want them doing that to ME anymore...'

Here is an experiment... have someone keep you awake for 48 hours... then try and lie to them...remembering the lie is harder than you can imagine. You are not going to die... but your brain just doesn't seem to work quite as well as it did with 8 hours sleep.

Well this induced (but fully unwarranted) panic... does something similar. It just means that your brain doesn't seem to work as well as it did when you were calm...

re: #213 Cato the Elder

I read Hitchen's essay on his experience with being waterboarded & I give him kudos for having the 'nads to do some real life research, but remain unconvinced. Just because he felt panic does not make it torture. The US military personnel who are waterboarded as part of SERE training are not being tortured. How does the same act become torture when applied to a terrorist or a journalist?

Out-sourcing the interrogations, and real torture to other countries is a far more serious moral failure than waterboarding terrorists at Gitmo. Handing over prisoners to Syria for "interrogation", as was done in 2001, 2002 was a profoundly stupid decision as well. Syria tortures prisoners routinely, they are not our ally and any information thus obtained was useless.

re: #210 Iron Fist

. Rights like not having to stand close to attractive women or having to listen to Twisted Sister played with the volume set to 11.

You just described most of my weekends growing up in Jersey in the 80s!

re: #64 Leonidas Hoplite

No physical harm was caused. They weren't tortured.

What do you mean by physical harm? Permanent physical harm? That's a poor measure of what is torture. I could stick you with needles continuously and you'd suffer no permanent physical harm, it would just hurt like a bitch. Do you really think that isn't torture? What about pulling someone's fingernails out? I know it'll grow back.

Have you ever held your breath under water for a long time? It starts to hurt. Now, imagine being held down against your will beyond what you think is your limit. It hurts more. And that's the fucking point is to make it hurt.

re: #217 Cato the Elder

They are invited to speak by an "organization" but it is not the same organization that organized the tea party. If you want I can go back and find the post, it was in response to an inquiry from a lizard. They posted the email from the organization that organized the D.C tea parties and if flat out said Geller's group was not associated with it. What's your problem with Keyes btw?

For the last time: I do not necessarily think that torture should never be used.

What I hate is the white-washing lie that if it comes with the SERE seal of approval, it doesn't qualify as torture. Bullshit.

We should man up and own what we do, not define it out of existence.

But the self-image of people who have actually convinced themselves that there is no such thing as the American Empire can't stand up to the truth.

The Romans knew what they were and were great because of it. No one pretended the Empire didn't exist, or that torture wasn't used as a state means to state ends.

We come off as tough on the outside, pussies on the inside. The world laughs.

Rendering people to Syria (Syria! thank you, Kenneth, I only mentioned Egypt) was state policy and would be done again if the people in charge thought it was needed.

Ergo, we torture people. The human instruments we use are irrelevant.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

re: #222 turn

Keyes is the right-wing male version of Cynthia McKinney.

re: #221 Teh Flowah

Is it torture when it is applied to US military personnel as part of SERE training?

How does it become torture when exactly the same procedure is applied to terrorist detainees?

re: #104 buzzsawmonkey

Making someone feel like they are drowning is not necessarily taking them to that edge. Doing so under careful guidelines, with medical personnel present to ensure that they do not in fact drown, and are not in fact injured, is not the same as simply dunking their head in a bucket or a toilet bowl and holding it under--any more than a doctor operating on a child is the same as a psychopath subjecting a captured child to vivisection.

Your ridiculous analogy falls apart when you realize that a doctor is working to save the child and interrogators are not working to help their target in anyway. They are interested in saving lives, but not that of the person they are questioning.

"Oh but they don't actually drown!"
"There are doctors standing by!"
Well durrr. We're not trying to kill them, how would you get any information from a dead person. That would defeat the whole purpose. The whole idea of torture is to inflict maximum pain allowed by the subject that will facilitate cooperation. That means, you can't torture him to the point where he breaks mentally, and definitely not to the point where he dies. You want him to be coherent enough/ALIVE to answer your questions. Of course we would want a doctor there.

What if the interrogators went too far? Would you really want to go to the American people and say "Well, we tried questioning him, but we accidentally KILLED him and now we can't ask him any more questions." No, surely, better to have a doctor there in case something goes wrong. I can assure you it was not out of any thoughts of kindness or charity towards Khalid Sheik Mohammed that there was a doctor standing by.

re: #114 Athos

Congress, particularly after 1/1/07 had plenty of opportunities to specifically define the EIT of waterboarding as torture and outlaw it. They did not. Neither did they take any action to cease funding operations that employed EIT. EIT is not torture under any reasonable definition of the word. To imply that it is cheapen's the horrific nature of those who actually do use torture as a point of policy.

Congress didn't outlaw it therefore it's not torture? Like Krauthammer says, they made a calculating decision that torture was necessary and they let it go. That doesn't mean it wasn't torture.

What I see here is a bunch of people who are so insecure about their ability to justify the torture that the United States has done that they instead, fight on the fringes to argue that it isn't torture at all. You don't have to lose a limb for it to be torture. When you make the standard of torture "someone needs to cut off your head" you're setting it to a ridiculous standard.

You should all consider that our military personnel, when going through resistance training to help them resist torture, are in fact waterboarded. We considered it torture enough to include it in our program.

I'm comfortable with calling a spade a spade because I think the interrogators made a tough decision in the right way, and the results speak for themselves.

re: #225 Kenneth

Is it torture when it is applied to US military personnel as part of SERE training?

How does it become torture when exactly the same procedure is applied to terrorist detainees?

Are you kidding me? You think that when we do it to our own guys to help them prepare for TORTURE, it somehow shows that it isn't torture at all? It's self-inflicted torture to help prepare for the real thing. Of course it's fucking torture.

You think they do it to them because it's some kind of breathing exercise? It's to help them cope should they ever encounter someone who actually wants to torture them for real.
CHRIST. The disconnect in you people is fucking strong as hell.

re: #219 Kenneth

I read Hitchen's essay on his experience with being waterboarded & I give him kudos for having the 'nads to do some real life research, but remain unconvinced. Just because he felt panic does not make it torture.

You know that it is a really great example of why it is NOT torture. Hitchen knew he wasn't going to die. He knew he could stop it at any moment, but that didn't help him to stop that wave of panic. It comes from somewhere in the brain that can't be reasoned with. Can't be negotiated with, can't be brushed aside...

Kenneth, you and I can see it, but there is always going to be people who can't.

As an addition. I can't believe that Kenneth totally forgot the whole point of INTENT. Intent is an idea that exists in our criminal justice system and should exist in the mind of every reasonable man. As already pointed out, the doctor performing surgery on a child is not the same as a psychopath taking a knife to a kid and gutting him.

Intent perhaps?

So when your intent with waterboarding is to help someone prepare for possible waterboarding by the enemy in the future, is it torture? No. But is it torture when you are waterboarding the enemy to get information from him? Fuck yeah it is. Intent can mean a lot, and it certainly does here.

Or, in another example, I fuck my girlfriend all the time and it's not rape. Why is it rape when I have sex with someone who doesn't want it? IT'S THE SAME ACTION, WHY IS IT DIFFERENT. OMIGAWD. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME BECAUSE I HAVE THE IQ OF A MAGGOT.

re: #223 Cato the Elder

My reference to SERE is not a "white-washing lie". Don't confuse what the Syrians & Egyptians did to rendered detainees, with what US interrogators did at Gitmo. US military personnel are not rendered to Syria as part of their SERE training. The Syrians & Egyptians did not follow the 10 approved methods of the "enhanced interrogation techniques". The Syrians & Egyptians tortured the prisoners, as they do to thousands of ordinary prisoners in their horrific jails.

I am arguing the very specific instance of waterboarding, and the other less severe methods of the "enhanced interrogation techniques", are not torture.

Obama made a big deal about closing down Gitmo (while giving himself a year to figure out what to do with the prisoners), and declaring the US will no longer engage in the "torture" practice of waterboarding. Never mind that Bush already banned the CIA from waterboarding back in 2006, Obama has double-banned it!

Meanwhile, Obama has authorized the continuing practice of extraordinary rendition, begun by president Clinton and continued by Bush. Is the US still rendering prisoners to Egypt, or Pakistan or Jordan or Morocco for "special interrogations"? I will agree with you on that point: what they do in those prisons is torture, & the US gov't is complicit. The current US gov't is also hypocritical.

Which raises several interesting questions: Which congressional oversight committees were debriefed on the issue of extraordinary rendition? Did they approve it? Was Joe Biden on one of those committees? What did he know and when did he know it? What was his opinion at the time? Did he object?

re: #229 Teh Flowah

I'm sitting here paying bills with auto on this thread. As long as I'm here what is your critique of my 141?

re: #227 Teh Flowah

Are you kidding me? You think that when we do it to our own guys to help them prepare for TORTURE, it somehow shows that it isn't torture at all? It's self-inflicted torture to help prepare for the real thing. Of course it's fucking torture.

You think they do it to them because it's some kind of breathing exercise? It's to help them cope should they ever encounter someone who actually wants to torture them for real.
CHRIST. The disconnect in you people is fucking strong as hell.

We do a lot of things to help them train for what might happen in the real world. Seals need to overcome the feelings of panic from water up their nose mostly because they spend a lot of time in water... Not just in case they are captured and need to resist questioning. In fact I suspect Navy seals would hope that AQ would only use waterboarding... A serious beating, or a black and decker drill is probably more likely in their future, and they are not expected to resist.

re: #227 Teh Flowah

Your posts might be taken seriously if you stopped dropping the f-bomb and other profanities several times in each post.

I know this will anger some, but I would not care if they had pulled out his fingernails and toe nails and made him listen to Barry Manilow!

All this talk about how evil we are to inflict "torture" on a man who planned the murder of 3000 people in our country makes me sick. He belongs to a lovely group of people who cut people's heads off. I am sure that Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg would not care about what was done to this monster if they were only alive.

re: #230 Kenneth

Was Joe Biden on one of those committees?

I think we can say unequivocally no since it hasn't come out in one of his gaffes.
:.)

re: #228 Buck

You know that it is a really great example of why it is NOT torture. Hitchen knew he wasn't going to die. He knew he could stop it at any moment, but that didn't help him to stop that wave of panic. It comes from somewhere in the brain that can't be reasoned with. Can't be negotiated with, can't be brushed aside...

Kenneth, you and I can see it, but there is always going to be people who can't.

Can you explain why it being an instinctual panic reaction makes it not torture?

I mean come on, your logic is just so full of holes it barely has any mass at all.

Let's go through one by one shall we? Hitchens knew he wasn't going to die. Ok. So, I can cut off your fingers and it's not torture. The chances of you dying from losing a few fingers is slim to none as long as I "HAVE A DOCTOR STANDING BY HAHA" Let's go a bit further and take out an eye. Maybe an ear as well. Hell I saw someone's ear get bitten off during a boxing match and he's still around. Guess it's not torture since you know you can't die. I'm going to castrate you. Tons of people have been castrated and lived to tell about it. Guess it's not torture as long as I have a doctor standing by right? Not like you're really at risk of dying.

He could stop it at any moment. Umm.. That's because it was voluntary you dipshit. Do you think that the real torture victim can say "plz stop" and his interrogators will just oblige? Hitchens, as a VOLUNTEER, could ask them to stop whenever the fuck he wanted.

Panic is, almost by its very definition, irrational. Panic prevents you from thinking clearly, it's designed to send you into a primitive state. Of course it doesn't come from your own rational self, that's the fuck point.

re: #231 turn

I'm sitting here paying bills with auto on this thread. As long as I'm here what is your critique of my 141?

If you think water in your nose is the pain factor from waterboarding you're sorely misinformed. You're losing oxygen because you can't breathe, and your lungs and heart are gasping for air but they can't have any. Hilarious that you thought the point of waterboading could have been accomplished by a water pistol aimed up your nose. re: #233 Kenneth

Your posts might be taken seriously if you stopped dropping the f-bomb and other profanities several times in each post.

Great way not to respond to the points though amirite?

re: #232 Buck

We do a lot of things to help them train for what might happen in the real world. Seals need to overcome the feelings of panic from water up their nose mostly because they spend a lot of time in water... Not just in case they are captured and need to resist questioning. In fact I suspect Navy seals would hope that AQ would only use waterboarding... A serious beating, or a black and decker drill is probably more likely in their future, and they are not expected to resist.

Are you seriously contending that the Seals are waterboarded to help them overcome the panic they might encounter should they get water in their noses while diving? That. Is. Hilarious. HILARIOUS!

No shit certain forms of torture are less harsh than others. Would I prefer my fingernails being pulled out or losing a limb. Hm, let's see, I think I'll lose some fingernails. Does that make one not torture? Fucking no.

Also, how is getting beat torture? I see people getting punched in hockey and boxing and shit all the time. Have you seen the faces of some boxers after a match? Looks like they got kicked over and over by a horse. Hell, my parents are Korean. I've tasted a real fucking beating as a kid. That shit isn't torture.

No, of course it's torture. Of course it isn't torture when you volunteer for it like a boxer or in hockey. Of course it becomes torture when it's done for the sole purpose of inflicting pain to force cooperation.

re: #237 Teh Flowah

That post apparently got messed up. Ok then it was the degree of pain I was bringing up, not whether water boarding was painful. Have you ever broken a rib? Although I've never been water boarded I have no doubt a broke rib is much more severe. The pain lasts for months and months.

re: #237 Teh Flowah

Oh, and who said anything about a water pistol? Oh, you're suggesting a face plant is comparable in relation to water boarding. Obviously you have never face planted, it hurts.

You know what the saddest part about all of this is? I'm not even saying it shouldn't have been done/continue to be done.

I'm just saying you shouldn't lie to yourself. It's torture, you know it's torture. Instead of dancing around with terminology, why don't you try seeing if you can justify it to the American people. I know I can, and I know they are convinced. Either you people are totally unable to present a convincing argument in favor of the necessary actions taken by this country, or you're too afraid that there isn't one.

Do you see any moderate Americans calling for the blood of the CIA interrogators or Bush administration? No. Not even Obama is. It's the far left and naive civil libertarian faeries like the ACLU.

re: #236 Teh Flowah

Can you explain why it being an instinctual panic reaction makes it not torture?

I mean come on, your logic is just so full of holes it barely has any mass at all.

Let's go through one by one shall we? Hitchens knew he wasn't going to die. Ok. So, I can cut off your fingers and it's not torture. The chances of you dying from losing a few fingers is slim to none as long as I "HAVE A DOCTOR STANDING BY HAHA" Let's go a bit further and take out an eye. Maybe an ear as well. Hell I saw someone's ear get bitten off during a boxing match and he's still around. Guess it's not torture since you know you can't die. I'm going to castrate you. Tons of people have been castrated and lived to tell about it. Guess it's not torture as long as I have a doctor standing by right? Not like you're really at risk of dying.

He could stop it at any moment. Umm.. That's because it was voluntary you dipshit. Do you think that the real torture victim can say "plz stop" and his interrogators will just oblige? Hitchens, as a VOLUNTEER, could ask them to stop whenever the fuck he wanted.

Panic is, almost by its very definition, irrational. Panic prevents you from thinking clearly, it's designed to send you into a primitive state. Of course it doesn't come from your own rational self, that's the fuck point.

Today, a young child will be placed on a time out. He might panic that his parents don't love him any more, or that he will never be allowed to watch tv ever again...

It aint torture.

A teenager who stole a car will be placed in a cell while his parents are called... he might panic that THIS TIME it is serious, and that he might be in real trouble... He might cry and even wet his pants... the panic might be so severe that he swears that he will never do anything like that ever again...

It aint torture.

We do a lot of things to jailed criminals that take away their feeling of self worth, that remove any feelings like they are in control of their lives. Everyday we make many of them feel serious panic. A great majority of convicts cry themselves to sleep their first night...

It aint torture.

You want to make cutting off a finger equal to waterboarding? Fine... I can see that you don't get it... and might never...

re: #239 turn

That post apparently got messed up. Ok then it was the degree of pain I was bringing up, not whether water boarding was painful. Have you ever broken a rib? Although I've never been water boarded I have no doubt a broke rib is much more severe. The pain lasts for months and months.re: #240 turn
Once again, saying that X hurts more than Y does not make Y not torture. You seem to think it does. So, I'll make you a deal. Submit yourself to losing 1 finger, and then in a few months after the pain is gone, submit to losing an arm, perhaps a leg, or two legs. I guess someone cutting off your finger wasn't really torture huh buddy. Or let's go softer. Lemme break some of your fingers, and then let me shatter your femur.

Oh, and who said anything about a water pistol? Oh, you're suggesting a face plant is comparable in relation to water boarding. Obviously you have never face planted, it hurts.

I brought it up because getting shot in the face with a super soaker can cause water to go up your nose. But clearly that is not what waterboarding is seeking to do. It's trying to deprive you of actions to cause pain to your body, not simply to make your nose sting for a couple seconds.

re: #242 Buck

You want to make cutting off a finger equal to waterboarding? Fine... I can see that you don't get it... and might never...

Lemme guess, you failed math and science? Because your deductive reasoning skills are fucking terribad.

Torture almost always results in panic.
Panic does not always result from torture.

Wrap your head around that if you can.

Will you panic if someone is cutting off your arm? Damn skippy you would. Is it torture. Damn right it is.
Would you panic if you just totaled your dad's new car? Damn right you would. Is it torture? Fucking no it isn't.

So, when does it become torture? You look at intent, you look at the pain. Our intent is to inflict pain so they will answer our questions. We inflict a good amount of physical pain on the subject.

@ Buck

I also noticed you didn't respond to my points. About why knowing you aren't going to die/knowing it would stop whenever you wanted in the Hitchens example doesn't apply in the slightest to this argument.

But that's generally what people do when they have no rebuttals or ideas. They sidestep. I fully expect more sidestepping from you and your ilk.

re: #243 Teh Flowah

Well in a face plant it can sting for hours. At any rate you don't seem to be addressing the degree of pain issue, you know the definition of "severe". This of course is subjective but I just think you are drawing the line too low. btw, personally I wouldn't have a problem if we had to break a few ribs on those murders to get the information we got from them and I consider that severe pain. So I guess I'm down with torture yet I believe torture wasn't used on the detainees. I"m done.

re: #246 turn

Well in a face plant it can sting for hours. At any rate you don't seem to be addressing the degree of pain issue, you know the definition of "severe". This of course is subjective but I just think you are drawing the line too low. btw, personally I wouldn't have a problem if we had to break a few ribs on those murders to get the information we got from them and I consider that severe pain. So I guess I'm down with torture yet I believe torture wasn't used on the detainees. I"m done.

Pain doesn't automatically mean torture. Otherwise we'd need to ban basically every physical sport out there. Boxing, Hockey, Football. Hell, even baseball. Ever been pegged by a baseball going 95 miles an hours in the thigh? Fucking hurts @ 60mph, can't even imagine 95.

You think I'm drawing the line too low because you don't seem to fully grasp what waterboarding is. I promise if I took a CIA interrogator to your house and had him waterboard you as if you were the enemy, you'd change your mind. You'd call a spade a spade, just like Hitchens did after he volunteered for it.

I think much of the problem regarding torture is that we have commenters who hold their own notions of what is and isn't torture.

What does the law say? Is it torture or not per the law? Was the law broken? Not what our preferences are, or what we personally think is torture.

Enforce the law. Change the law, then enforce it.

(I suggest we start with the tax code and The One's staffing choices, but that's another topic)

re: #245 Teh Flowah

@ Buck

I also noticed you didn't respond to my points. About why knowing you aren't going to die/knowing it would stop whenever you wanted in the Hitchens example doesn't apply in the slightest to this argument.

But that's generally what people do when they have no rebuttals or ideas. They sidestep. I fully expect more sidestepping from you and your ilk.

No no...
that is not true at all...

I thought I was clear when I mentioned it at first. If Hitchen knew he would be safe, and unharmed in anyway BUT still could not stop the panic that is a real window on what boarding really is for the rest of you. It is not something you can out think.

I don't think that is sidestepping anything. It might tell you that this is not about 'thinking you are going to drown'. It is not about drowning at all. It is not about thinking at all. It is a really simple and safe button that induces panic in your mind. Deep in a place you can't seem to reason with.

I don't seem to know how to make that more clear. So I did not feel I needed to repeat myself.

This is also why I didn't repeat myself when yes, I seriously contented that Navy Seals are waterboarded to help them learn not to panic when they are in the water... It is a controlled method to induce the panic of drowning without the risk of actual drowning. Air force pilots are more likely to be captured and tortured, and they are not waterboarded as part of their training...

re: #36 MandyManners

Aiyeee!

I should put that picture on my fridge as a weight-loss aid. My appetite just disappeared.

re: #36 MandyManners

Aiyeee!

Now THAT'S torture.

OK, ok, I'll talk...just don't make me look at that again.

re: #230 Kenneth

So, if "enhanced interrogation techniques" à la SERE were applied, by the book, with no deviation, doctor standing by, all protocols met to the letter for, say, three days running at eight waterboardings a day in a combat zone by operatives trying to get the subject to divulge plans for an impending attack on their positions, would this meet your definition of "not torture"?

Oh, I forgot, the subject is an American G.I..

Still not torture?

Or does the side that happens to be using it determine whether a thing is torture or not?

re: #245 Teh Flowah

@ Buck

I also noticed you didn't respond to my points. About why knowing you aren't going to die/knowing it would stop whenever you wanted in the Hitchens example doesn't apply in the slightest to this argument.

But that's generally what people do when they have no rebuttals or ideas. They sidestep. I fully expect more sidestepping from you and your ilk.

I would like to add something to this...

Teh,
Can I call you Teh?

In a normal conversation people might express an opinion. They might not really want to debate every issue. They might give their opinion, and allow you to give yours. Just because they don't choose to repeat their opinion again does not mean that they are giving up, and that you are right. It might just mean that they feel their point should stand.

Don't allow yourself the pleasure of thinking you changed anyones mind, just because they gave you the last word.

Has anyone calling waterboarding torture actually defined torture yet? I've seen the goalpost move when someone points out that their definition of torture matches the most basic travails of civilian life in a first world country, but no actual definition.

re: #128 redc1c4

annex Canada: problem solved.

No need, as Krauthammer was born in NYC but grew up in Montreal. He describes himself as "an American".

Mind you, annexation may be good for other reasons. Mark Steyn once commented that the easiest way to reduce America's dependence on foreign oil would be to annex Alberta.

re: #252 Cato the Elder

So, if "enhanced interrogation techniques" à la SERE were applied, by the book, with no deviation, doctor standing by, all protocols met to the letter for, say, three days running at eight waterboardings a day in a combat zone by operatives trying to get the subject to divulge plans for an impending attack on their positions, would this meet your definition of "not torture"?

Oh, I forgot, the subject is an American G.I..

Still not torture?

Or does the side that happens to be using it determine whether a thing is torture or not?

Is the subject an American GI who was captured in UNIFORM? Or is it an American in civilian garb, with no patch, or flag to distinguish himself from civilians?

Makes a difference to me...

OSS agents, dropped behind enemy lines to kill German pilots and Nazi collaborators, knew they were not entitled to the same protections as 82nd Airborne troops dropped behind German lines on D-Day.

I have no problem with francs-tireurs, "terrorists", saboteurs, mercenaries and spies being treated differently than uniformed GIs.