No More War

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The war has been going on for about 40 years, with no victory in sight; now the Obama administration is preparing to call it quits.

Or at least, preparing to quit calling it a “war:” White House Czar Calls for End to ‘War on Drugs’.

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration’s new drug czar says he wants to banish the idea that the U.S. is fighting “a war on drugs,” a move that would underscore a shift favoring treatment over incarceration in trying to reduce illicit drug use.

In his first interview since being confirmed to head the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, Gil Kerlikowske said Wednesday the bellicose analogy was a barrier to dealing with the nation’s drug issues.

“Regardless of how you try to explain to people it’s a ‘war on drugs’ or a ‘war on a product,’ people see a war as a war on them,” he said. “We’re not at war with people in this country.”

Mr. Kerlikowske’s comments are a signal that the Obama administration is set to follow a more moderate — and likely more controversial — stance on the nation’s drug problems. Prior administrations talked about pushing treatment and reducing demand while continuing to focus primarily on a tough criminal-justice approach.

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482 comments
1 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:22:06pm

No more chess.

2 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:22:19pm

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

3 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:22:42pm

This is a good development

4 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:23:17pm

We're assuming the new Administration considers it to be a drug "problem"

5 calcajun  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:23:59pm

No more "Go"? What about the card game, "War"? What about the 60's band, "War"?

If they are willing to do this, why not go all the way and legalize them all? It would put the drug cartels out of business almost overnight.

6 calcajun  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:24:20pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

Poverty--it's still here.

7 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:24:46pm
8 tommygum  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:24:47pm

War

Huh

Good G*d ya'll

What is it good for.

9 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:24:52pm

Are they preparing a new type of stimulus package?

/maybe I should muzzle myself

10 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:25:21pm

re: #6 calcajun

Poverty--it's still here.

Yeah, but now we have the richest poor people in the world.

11 pegcity  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:25:24pm

How can you have a war on an inanimate object.

12 calcajun  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:25:38pm

re: #7 Iron Fist

No, he did inhale. It was the last Democrat president that just smelled the stuff.

13 Cathypop  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:25:57pm

Sounds like another happy happy joy joy hope and change!

14 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:26:05pm

I'll know it's over when they legalize it, mon.

15 calcajun  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:26:37pm

re: #10 Son of the Black Dog

Yeah, but now we have the richest poor people in the world.

A rising tide floats all boats--but drowns everyone who can't get aboard.

16 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:26:39pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

Poverty did, allied with ignorance and sloth.

17 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:27:06pm

War on Drugs
NSFW

18 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:27:25pm

It's time to end all wars that are not real wars. War is an extreme in which there are few rules. I don't like social or political small-w "wars".

So Fox, while we are at it you can take your culture war and shove it.

19 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:27:55pm

re: #18 Thanos

It's time to end all wars that are not real wars. War is an extreme in which there are few rules. I don't like social or political small-w "wars".

So Fox, while we are at it you can take your culture war and shove it.


Fox news or Vincente Fox?

20 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:28:00pm

Have to wait and see how this develops. I hope they make a better effort on the addiction treatment in the long run.

One thing we cannot set aside with this policy is Columbia. Any effort to end the war on drugs must include the long term stability of said nation.

21 calcajun  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:28:21pm

re: #14 Sharmuta

I'll know it's over when they legalize it, mon.

Yes, I'll stand in line for my first legal hit of cocaine. Until then, I'll suffer with Scotch.

22 opnion  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:28:34pm

Interestingly enough Tolstoy originally planned to call War & Peace, War what is it good for"
Seinfeld to Elaine

23 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:28:46pm

re: #19 EmmmieG

Fox news

24 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:28:50pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

Government because it allowed for a lot of bloat to occur.

25 Tumulus11  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:29:11pm
'Mr. Kerlikowske was most recently the police chief in Seattle, a city known for experimenting with drug programs. [...]
Mr. Kerlikowske said he opposed the city's 2003 initiative on police priorities. His officers, however, say drug enforcement -- especially for pot crimes -- took a back seat, according to Sgt. Richard O'Neill, president of the Seattle Police Officers Guild. One result was an open-air drug market in the downtown business district, Mr. O'Neill said.

'The average rank-and-file officer is saying, 'He can't control two blocks of Seattle, how is he going to control the nation?' ' Mr. O'Neill
said.'

. Uh-oh.

26 Wendya  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:29:20pm
“We’re not at war with people in this country.”

Unless they make more than 150K per year.

27 debutaunt  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:29:31pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

ACORN.

28 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:29:47pm
“Regardless of how you try to explain to people it’s a ‘war on drugs’ or a ‘war on a product,’ people see a war as a war on them,” he said. “We’re not at war with people in this country.”

I don't see it as a war on me, Mr. Kerlikowske.
Who are you referring to?
Friends of yours?

29 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:30:20pm

OT: Charles I'm back to three to five minute front page loads. Since this comes and goes it's pretty much got to be something in sidebars or embedded vids? I know google is having some issues

30 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:30:57pm

there was never on war on drugs...just a little shoving match, which the feds couldn't even win...there are probably more users in prison than smigglers and dealers....a total failure all around so?....we will relable it! for a new offensive....BRILLIANT!

31 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:31:19pm
32 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:31:19pm

There is one drug that is being used less and less by people simply through education.
NICOTINE!
Show kids early on the junkies in the gutter, the psychotic "meth" addicts in institutions, the wet brain alcoholics.
And just say no.
I do it every day.

33 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:31:41pm

re: #21 calcajun

Yes, I'll stand in line for my first legal hit of cocaine. Until then, I'll suffer with Scotch.

You know- if you want to sit in your house, minding your own business messing with your brain by using scotch, or weed, or cocaine, or Glenn Beck... I don't see why I should stop you.

34 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:32:27pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you."

35 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:32:52pm

re: #30 albusteve

there was never on war on drugs...just a little shoving match, which the feds couldn't even win...there are probably more users in prison than smigglers and dealers....a total failure all around so?....we will relable it! for a new offensive....BRILLIANT!

They couldn't win since they never really wanted to win, just put up a lot of propaganda and bullshit they cared.

Yeah, let's legalize all drugs, yet criminalize tobacco and alcohol. And be sure to grab the guns.

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

36 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:33:06pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

You know- if you want to sit in your house, minding your own business messing with your brain by using scotch, or weed, or cocaine, or Glenn Beck... I don't see why I should stop you.

cocain will drive you to insanity and eventually kill you....no slack for coke or meth or heroin

37 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:33:13pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

38 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:33:14pm

re: #32 IslandLibertarian

There is one drug that is being used less and less by people simply through education.
NICOTINE!
Show kids early on the junkies in the gutter, the psychotic "meth" addicts in institutions, the wet brain alcoholics.
And just say no.
I do it every day.

You mean glamor shots like this?

[Link: www.oregonlive.com...]

39 Eowyn2  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:33:58pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

I LOST

40 opnion  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:34:00pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

Jesse Jackson!

41 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:34:33pm

re: #37 Slumbering Behemoth

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

And true at the same time.

42 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:34:56pm

re: #35 FurryOldGuyJeans

They couldn't win since they never really wanted to win, just put up a lot of propaganda and bullshit they cared.

Yeah, let's legalize all drugs, yet criminalize tobacco and alcohol. And be sure to grab the guns.

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

the 'ongoing war' is worth billions...nobody really wants it to end, or it would....there are obvious solutions but nobody ever asked me

43 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:35:03pm

re: #36 albusteve

cocain will drive you to insanity and eventually kill you....no slack for coke or meth or heroin

Honestly- I agree completely. But I also agree throwing users in jail is not the answer. These people need treatment, not jail.

The people we ought to have in jail are the people who are hurting others- real criminals. Not self-abusers.

44 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:35:30pm

Good...Whether it be the "War on Poverty" or the "War on Drugs", I hate having the word "war" used to describe anything less than an actual war.

Of course, considering the situation in Mexico, President Obama may be declaring an end to the "War on Drugs" just as it's on the verge of actually becoming an real war.

45 freetoken  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:37:04pm

This should play well with the talking heads who need more meat with which to rile up their audiences.

The real "war" about "drugs" is happen a few miles to the south of me, down in TJ and surrounds, where daily body counts are adding up. Just the other day 4 Americans were found slain... I haven't kept up on what was discovered about their murderers, but I would be surprised if it didn't involved drug gangs.

46 imploder  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:37:22pm

re: #20 Gus 802

Have to wait and see how this develops. I hope they make a better effort on the addiction treatment in the long run.

One thing we cannot set aside with this policy is Columbia. Any effort to end the war on drugs must include the long term stability of said nation.

That's Colombia. I've been there many times as an old drug warrior.

47 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:37:26pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Honestly- I agree completely. But I also agree throwing users in jail is not the answer. These people need treatment, not jail.

The people we ought to have in jail are the people who are hurting others- real criminals. Not self-abusers.

yes...a few draconian measures and the problem is virtually solved...liberals love drug addict victims tho

48 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:37:33pm

re: #41 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm just picturing a 12 step type meeting from that post.

"Hi, my name is Slumbering, and I'm a Beckaholic. It's been 45 since I last slavered over an MSM squawking head".

49 Eowyn2  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:37:34pm

I'm so excited. I made my karma quota.

50 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:37:38pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Honestly- I agree completely. But I also agree throwing users in jail is not the answer. These people need treatment, not jail.

The people we ought to have in jail are the people who are hurting others- real criminals. Not self-abusers.

Society used to jail people who attempted suicide and failed.

I do agree we need to evolve beyond institutionalizing people who hurt themselves only with drugs. Save the time, effort, and money for those who do harm to others.

51 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:38:16pm

re: #46 imploder

That's Colombia. I've been there many times as an old drug warrior.

Thanks. I've seen that spelling error before. I should have known better.

52 Hucbald  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:38:18pm

Yeah, right. Drug laws are the biggest bonanza of all for lawyers and police departments. This will change nothing.

53 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:38:37pm

re: #49 Eowyn2

I'm so excited. I made my karma quota.

Whats your quota?

54 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:39:33pm

re: #50 FurryOldGuyJeans

Society used to jail people who attempted suicide and failed.

I do agree we need to evolve beyond institutionalizing people who hurt themselves only with drugs. Save the time, effort, and money for those who do harm to others.

I don't see why they can't be put in rehab programs as probation if they are otherwise non-violent people. But criminalizing users hasn't been effective.

55 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:39:50pm

re: #52 Hucbald

Yeah, right. Drug laws are the biggest bonanza of all for lawyers and police departments. This will change nothing.

I have said the same, its a cash cow for more than the dealers.

56 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:40:24pm

No raisins for this guy......
SVBIED Attack Against U.S. Base- Afghanistan

Skip to about 6:00.
The jihadi was the only casualty.

57 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:40:34pm

Back in the 80s or 90s, one of the Tucson papers ran a week-long series of stories about complaints from residents of a near-Southside neighborhood about rampant drug dealer presence on their streets at night.

Residents were quoted as saying, there was a constant stream of BMWs and Mercedes -- buyers coming from the affluent Northside.

I wonder if that has a metaphorical "something to do" with this re-definition by the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy.

/was this a client-focused decision?

58 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:40:35pm

re: #10 Son of the Black Dog

Yeah, but now we have the richest poor people in the world.

Yes, we do.

59 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:41:13pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

I don't see why they can't be put in rehab programs as probation if they are otherwise non-violent people. But criminalizing users hasn't been effective.

Because keeping this war going is lining the pockets of some people. The vested interests don't want the fighting to stop.

60 imploder  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:41:23pm

re: #51 Gus 802

Thanks. I've seen that spelling error before. I should have known better.

Colombia is actually a very nice place to visit. Medellin is nice this time of year, as is Melgar, or further south along the border, el rio Putu Mayo. Along the coast a stop is Cartagena or Santa Marta for some seafood is lovely. Bogota is at 2,000 meters and so is fresh and lovely high in the Andes...

61 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:41:57pm

Great news!

New legal drug purveyors can market to kids (where else would new market share come from?), we can have already over burdened hospitals deal with the inevitable tragedies and disasters and schools and universities will deal with classrooms full of stoners.

How progressive.

62 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:42:20pm

re: #29 Thanos

OT: Charles I'm back to three to five minute front page loads. Since this comes and goes it's pretty much got to be something in sidebars or embedded vids? I know google is having some issues

Hmm. Wierd. I'm not having a problem.
(and I'm using Internet Euwww 7)

63 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:42:23pm

re: #14 Sharmuta

hehe Well it never made any sense to me that pot is illegal. It certainly isn't any more harmful, and I think a lot less, than alchohol. Besides from a terrorist/drug trafficking prospective, legalize it and grow it locally. Now, you've just cut out the foreign dealers/drug czars and the gov can tax it. Or in the very least, make 1 oz legal for personal consumption. In fact, I believe Carter did this, legalized 1 oz. Didn't go over well... I'll have to look that up, but obviously that changed.

The other stuff is different. It'll take your life and your family's life (if you know any addicts, you know what that's about), but pot? Like Peter Tosh says,

64 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:42:53pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

I don't see why they can't be put in rehab programs as probation if they are otherwise non-violent people. But criminalizing users hasn't been effective.

addicts could be stuck out on an old defunct AFB growing veggies in Utah...streamline the laws so you can move these cons out of state...boot camp style...figure out a way to keep costs down, make them produce...cleaning them up would be a huge PR coup...you'd probably have volunteers

65 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:43:33pm

re: #29 Thanos

OT: Charles I'm back to three to five minute front page loads. Since this comes and goes it's pretty much got to be something in sidebars or embedded vids? I know google is having some issues

We had a line of thunderstorms sweep through here yesterday morning that played hell with servers and routers all over the area. I completely lost my connection this morning after hours of sluggish, flaky behavior; and several radio stations lost their Internet streams. Things are now more or less back to normal.

Could be a local problem, rather than a site problem.

66 Eowyn2  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:43:49pm

re: #43 Sharmuta

Honestly- I agree completely. But I also agree throwing users in jail is not the answer. These people need treatment, not jail.

The people we ought to have in jail are the people who are hurting others- real criminals. Not self-abusers.

A lot of self-abusers are hurting others as well. Have you ever worked in a place frequented by meth-heads. Its rather spooky. You can argue with a drunk and kick him out but someone so out of it that they just look at you, agree with you, then just sit there is rather unnerving.

I think pot should be decriminalized and that it should be regulated like alcohol. Just as the gvmt keeps track of the Proof of alcohol, they could keep the thc Proof controlled. Same penalties for abuse.

BUT you have a problem. With smoking becoming illegal in so many bars across the country, will it be jellow pot shots

67 debutaunt  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:44:08pm

re: #49 Eowyn2

I'm so excited. I made my karma quota.

Yippee!

68 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:44:13pm

re: #61 researchok

Great news!

New legal drug purveyors can market to kids (where else would new market share come from?), we can have already over burdened hospitals deal with the inevitable tragedies and disasters and schools and universities will deal with classrooms full of stoners.

How progressive.

Gil Kerlikowske's comments has nothing to do with legalization. In fact the article also mentions:

Mr. Kerlikowske said the issue was one of limited police resources, adding that he doesn't support efforts to legalize drugs.

69 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:44:55pm

re: #63 american sabra

Actually- I do have some addicts in my family. I've allowed them to serve as my lesson in life as to why we don't do hard drugs.

But it's also because of them I've learned that prison time doesn't help them. The only thing that helped my family members was rehab, not jail.

70 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:45:01pm

If they do legalize weed then I hope they also back off on draconian anti-smoking laws.

71 calvinista  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:45:43pm

I updinged this thread, but, don't expect any changes from the gvmt re: drug policy. One can hope...

72 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:45:45pm

re: #70 LGoPs

If they do legalize weed then I hope they also back off on draconian anti-smoking laws.

gotta have a coupla spliffs on a cross country Greyhound ride

73 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:46:01pm

re: #68 Gus 802

In some places, access to pot is a legalized process (San Fran).

There won't be a two tier system.

74 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:47:06pm

re: #70 LGoPs

If they do legalize weed then I hope they also back off on draconian anti-smoking laws.

Interesting that there's so much overlap between the people who want to ban tobacco but would legalize pot, at least in my experience.

75 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:47:11pm

re: #2 Alouette

That reminds me, who won the War on Poverty?

Obama and the 'left' won. We're all going to be poor.

76 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:47:46pm

re: #61 researchok

Great news!

New legal drug purveyors can market to kids (where else would new market share come from?), we can have already over burdened hospitals deal with the inevitable tragedies and disasters and schools and universities will deal with classrooms full of stoners.

How progressive.

Yep, the very same thing happened when they repealed the alcohol prohibition.

/wait, what?

77 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:48:47pm

I don't mean to be cynical (really), but I smell another industry run by and taxed to death by gummint.

78 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:48:57pm

re: #66 Eowyn2

A lot of self-abusers are hurting others as well. Have you ever worked in a place frequented by meth-heads. Its rather spooky. You can argue with a drunk and kick him out but someone so out of it that they just look at you, agree with you, then just sit there is rather unnerving.

Actually- I used to be a legal drug dealer. That is- I sold alcohol. I could tell you horror stories about the devastating effects alcohol has on our society. However- it is every individual's choice to reach for the stars or dive for the sewer. Most people can handle alcohol responsibly. I believe the same is true for marijuana.

79 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:49:17pm

re: #61 researchok

Great news!

New legal drug purveyors can market to kids (where else would new market share come from?), we can have already over burdened hospitals deal with the inevitable tragedies and disasters and schools and universities will deal with classrooms full of stoners.

How progressive.

wtf are you talking about?.....are you stoned?

80 Right mind left  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:49:48pm

First step, end the war on drugs.

Second step, let all the dealers go free.

Third step, legalize and tax along with the increased taxes on liquor, cigarettes and sugary drinks (and candy and Cheerios) to pay for his universal healthcare for the rehab for all the addicts...(hmm, sounds like a perpetual motion machine!)

The rationale is that all his union buddies see it as another business that can be strong armed, plus he will need everyone addicted and messed up in order to be re-elected...

Bigger government, then subsidize local poppy growing? Okay, it's Friday, so I am entitled to be a bit was weird and sarcastic, but hey, everything that is up is down right now so in a twisted way it makes total sense to me why he'd want to do this! Let all his pals free!

Okay, while I am on a roll, how much of his campaign funds came from drug money I wonder?

//? (it's Friday...)

81 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:49:53pm

Pot should not be treated as harshly as it has.

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:50:12pm

re: #61 researchok

Great news!

New legal drug purveyors can market to kids (where else would new market share come from?), we can have already over burdened hospitals deal with the inevitable tragedies and disasters and schools and universities will deal with classrooms full of stoners.

How progressive.

Have you ever checked the history of Prohibition? Or the history of the War on Drugs? You might find you are quite wrong.

But don't let me stop you from foaming at the mouth.

83 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:50:15pm

re: #61 researchok

Great news!

New legal drug purveyors can market to kids (where else would new market share come from?), we can have already over burdened hospitals deal with the inevitable tragedies and disasters and schools and universities will deal with classrooms full of stoners.

How progressive.

University classes already ARE full of stoners.

84 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:50:39pm

No more war on drugs!

Groovy.

Peace, man.

85 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:51:20pm

re: #81 DEZes

Pot should not be treated as harshly as it has.

no shit...google the feds drug classification schedule...shocka!

86 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:51:21pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

I don't see why they can't be put in rehab programs as probation if they are otherwise non-violent people. But criminalizing users hasn't been effective.

My brother went 'round and 'round in the "treatment" system for years. Never spent more than a night in jail, no forced institutional stays, just bounced from one rehab to the next.....til he was found dead...of an overdose...in his room...at a rehab house...
Some times you got to lock them up til they're clean.

87 saberry0530  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:51:31pm

Can someone pass the Doritos! dude

88 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:51:38pm

re: #76 Slumbering Behemoth

Yep, the very same thing happened when they repealed the alcohol prohibition.

/wait, what?

There's an interesting documentary at Hulu about the tunnel system the mobsters used during prohibition to distribute liquor during the prohibition. Of course after prohibition mob crime related to illicit liquor sales virtually vanished overnight.

89 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:51:39pm

re: #81 DEZes

Pot should not be treated as harshly as it has.

There are some rather good by-products of the plant other than as an intoxicant. The fiber can make a rather durable cloth, for one.

90 itellu3times  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:51:48pm

Carbon tax on brownies, same effect.

91 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:51:56pm

Smoke if you got 'em.

92 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:52:00pm

re: #77 rightymouse

Ward Churchill, Director of the Office Of Stoner Oversight

93 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:52:06pm

re: #83 Sharmuta

University classes already ARE full of stoners.

The professors?
You are right, pot is not hard to come by.

94 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:52:15pm

re: #78 Sharmuta

Actually- I used to be a legal drug dealer. That is- I sold alcohol. I could tell you horror stories about the devastating effects alcohol has on our society. However- it is every individual's choice to reach for the stars or dive for the sewer. Most people can handle alcohol responsibly. I believe the same is true for marijuana.

I've always viewed drugs/alcohol as being something like cars. Some substances (coffee? chocolate? caffeine drinks?) that will change your mood are like a car going 5 miles an hour--very few people can't handle that. As the substance gets more mood-altering, the speed goes up, until we're at speeds that no human being can safely maneuver (meth).

Everyone has their limit, but I'll bet more than a few people are in denial about what theirs is.

95 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:52:17pm

re: #79 albusteve

You must have missed the memo. If the prohibition against marijuana is repealed we will all magically become addicts, even those who never touch the stuff.

96 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:52:30pm

re: #86 IslandLibertarian

My brother went 'round and 'round in the "treatment" system for years. Never spent more than a night in jail, no forced institutional stays, just bounced from one rehab to the next.....til he was found dead...of an overdose...in his room...at a rehab house...
Some times you got to lock them up til they're clean.

BINGO!

97 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:52:59pm

re: #90 itellu3times

Carbon tax on brownies, same effect.

People under the influence of ganja tend to talk a lot thus creating large amounts of CO2.

//

98 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:53:29pm

re: #81 DEZes

Pot should not be treated as harshly as it has.

No, but I don't want to have to smell the stuff in public and risk being 'high' when I have to drive, etc.

On the other hand, it should do wonders for the snack business.

99 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:53:45pm

re: #69 Sharmuta

Indeed. Well AA and NA are the best things out there. I married a recovering drunk at one time (more drunk than recovering) and whenever I saw folks with serious sober time, it's because of AA or NA. The support is a big key.

100 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:53:47pm

re: #89 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are some rather good by-products of the plant other than as an intoxicant. The fiber can make a rather durable cloth, for one.

No one has seemed to notice the pun.

101 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:54:03pm

re: #95 Slumbering Behemoth

You must have missed the memo. If the prohibition against marijuana is repealed we will all magically become addicts, even those who never touch the stuff.

yes, couch addicts maybe

102 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:54:05pm

re: #74 Son of the Black Dog

Interesting that there's so much overlap between the people who want to ban tobacco but would legalize pot, at least in my experience.

I know. I actually quit smoking 3 years ago but will never accept the strong arm tactics and lies of the anti-tobacco crowd. I'm cool with smoke free buildings and restaurants but I draw the line at laws that tell people where they can smoke outdoors for example. I happen to subscribe to the diffusion of gases theory.

103 spinmore  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:54:14pm

Why are th so called 'Anarchists' allied with the Left? You know, the Left which believes Government should control everything (including thought).
Every time the Lefties throw a street party - there are the Anarchists. It's funny when a cop smacks one into place, suddenly they want justice (where's the anarchy in that?).

104 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:54:21pm

re: #70 LGoPs

If they do legalize weed then I hope they also back off on draconian anti-smoking laws.

Speaking as a former rabid smoker: breathing smoke is bad, no matter where it comes from. Your body and the millions of years of evolution that produced it react to smoke by panicking, coughing and choking until you deliberately train it not to.

Those Draconian laws prohibiting smoking in many buildings were actually a huge aid when it came time for me to finally quit. And after several smoke-free years, my old reflexes have returned, making it fairly uncomfortable for me to be around smokers.

Doesn't matter what kind of smoke; it's all irritating. I would hope that if pot is legalized, the same regulations governing smoking in public places apply equally to pot, tobacco or any other similar smoke producer.

105 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:54:24pm

re: #98 rightymouse

No, but I don't want to have to smell the stuff in public and risk being 'high' when I have to drive, etc.

On the other hand, it should do wonders for the snack business.

A second hand buzz?

106 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:55:18pm

Nicotine, whoever said it upthread, is by far the most insidious, it doesn't make you go ga-ga but kills you in other lovely ways, not any less frightening.

107 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:55:28pm

re: #86 IslandLibertarian

My brother went 'round and 'round in the "treatment" system for years. Never spent more than a night in jail, no forced institutional stays, just bounced from one rehab to the next.....til he was found dead...of an overdose...in his room...at a rehab house...
Some times you got to lock them up til they're clean.

I'm sorry for your loss. Sometimes- there is no helping them.

I had a lady friend drink herself to death- she had liver disease, and couldn't stop drinking. And that's a legal substance. Jail might have kept her alive, but is it right to do that to someone?

108 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:55:38pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

Yes, we do.

At least in my experience, the poor always seem to have plenty of money to buy beer, cigarettes, and gasoline. And I can't count the number of times I've been in line at the supermarket checkout watching someone buy food that I can't afford, but they're paying with foodstamps.

109 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:56:00pm

re: #92 researchok

Ward Churchill, Director of the Office Of Stoner Oversight

Heh....

110 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:56:02pm

re: #99 american sabra

Indeed. Well AA and NA are the best things out there. I married a recovering drunk at one time (more drunk than recovering) and whenever I saw folks with serious sober time, it's because of AA or NA. The support is a big key.

recovery from coke, or meth or opiates cannot be willful....sanctioned by law

111 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:56:25pm

yes, let's just eradicate the word "war" from our vocabulary altogether.
it is, after all, a very harsh word and not very p.c to use today.
we don't even have a war going against the evil head choppers.
we just have an over seas contingency operation against them,
to guard against the occurrence of a man made event.

let's make the world a nice place by eliminating words that describe bad things.
gak

112 dak  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:56:28pm

OT

Check out the latest from Iowahawk. I just pissed myself, it's the funniest thing he ever wrote. Seriously.

113 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:56:40pm

Hey, if I get some grow lights and potting soil, grow some sensimilla, could I get, like, a carbon credit, or subsidy or some shit like that?

114 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:56:47pm

re: #102 LGoPs

I know. I actually quit smoking 3 years ago but will never accept the strong arm tactics and lies of the anti-tobacco crowd. I'm cool with smoke free buildings and restaurants but I draw the line at laws that tell people where they can smoke outdoors for example. I happen to subscribe to the diffusion of gases theory.

Hear, hear!

115 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:57:10pm

re: #96 albusteve

And I'd like to add, a lot of the rehabs are money making scams that have nothing to do with recovery.
There needs to be serious treatment, and I agree, not jail.

116 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:57:27pm

re: #107 Sharmuta

I'm sorry for your loss. Sometimes- there is no helping them.

I had a lady friend drink herself to death- she had liver disease, and couldn't stop drinking. And that's a legal substance. Jail might have kept her alive, but is it right to do that to someone?

no, not because of a legal substance....some people are just gonners

117 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:58:12pm

re: #88 Gus 802

Of course after prohibition mob crime related to illicit liquor sales virtually vanished overnight.

And, just as quickly, everyone in America became instant alcoholics. Jack Daniels began marketing to children. Gin & Juice Boxes everywhere, cats and dogs living together, horses eating each other. It was the end of the world.
/

118 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:58:21pm
119 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:58:27pm

re: #86 IslandLibertarian

My brother went 'round and 'round in the "treatment" system for years. Never spent more than a night in jail, no forced institutional stays, just bounced from one rehab to the next.....til he was found dead...of an overdose...in his room...at a rehab house...
Some times you got to lock them up til they're clean.

Sorry to hear that.

When I read this I was thinking that rehab techniques would have to be redone. From what I've seen they're too relaxed or have an "open door" policy. Perhaps it would be best to have a hybrid of current rehab methods which includes a form of incarceration. It would have to be enforced and disciplined.

120 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:58:58pm

re: #105 DEZes

A second hand buzz?

Yep. But it's a second-hand buzz the libs won't fuss about, no doubt.

121 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:59:38pm

BBIAW

122 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:59:52pm

re: #119 Gus 802

Sorry to hear that.

When I read this I was thinking that rehab techniques would have to be redone. From what I've seen they're too relaxed or have an "open door" policy. Perhaps it would be best to have a hybrid of current rehab methods which includes a form of incarceration. It would have to be enforced and disciplined.

yes of course...a ward of the court...forced rehab

123 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 3:59:55pm

I've long held that part of the problem with hard drugs is we lie to kids about marijuana by lumping it in with other hard drugs. Kids try pot, find it's not so bad, then figure they'll try something else because the weed wasn't so bad- maybe we lied to them about the coke too.

Maybe I'm off base, but it can't help to be intentionally lying about it.

124 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:00:27pm

All things printed in The Onion come to pass

[Link: store.theonion.com...]

125 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:00:32pm

re: #117 Slumbering Behemoth

And, just as quickly, everyone in America became instant alcoholics. Jack Daniels began marketing to children. Gin & Juice Boxes everywhere, cats and dogs living together, horses eating each other. It was the end of the world.
/

Naked cats and dogs roaming the streets! Plus the violin case industry tanked. //

126 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:00:42pm

re: #107 Sharmuta

I'm sorry for your loss. Sometimes- there is no helping them.

I had a lady friend drink herself to death- she had liver disease, and couldn't stop drinking. And that's a legal substance. Jail might have kept her alive, but is it right to do that to someone?

Fair question, to be sure.

On the other hand, are we are brother's keeper?

127 Silvergirl  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:00:56pm

Make love not war. No more war on drugs. We're gonna love on our drugs now.

WAR! Huh! Yeah!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothin'
Say it again!

Good God, y'all!

128 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:01:20pm

re: #123 Sharmuta

I've long held that part of the problem with hard drugs is we lie to kids about marijuana by lumping it in with other hard drugs. Kids try pot, find it's not so bad, then figure they'll try something else because the weed wasn't so bad- maybe we lied to them about the coke too.

Maybe I'm off base, but it can't help to be intentionally lying about it.

There was a really good commercial on the radio a few years back making the point that "nothing" will happen to you if you use pot by having a loser talk about how he still lived at his parents and had a dead-end job. Nothing interesting had happened to him.

129 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:01:39pm

re: #126 researchok

On the other hand, are we are brother's keeper?

That way lies The Nanny State.

130 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:01:39pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

Yes, we do.

what lucky but vicious bitter victims. that's what happens.
welfare becomes a right. taken for granted. demanded.
didn't "poor" people used to have some gratitude and manners?

131 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:01:45pm

re: #61 researchok

Great news!

New legal drug purveyors can market to kids (where else would new market share come from?), we can have already over burdened hospitals deal with the inevitable tragedies and disasters and schools and universities will deal with classrooms full of stoners.

How progressive.

Uh - what?

The current illegal drug purveyors are already marketing to kids. Walk into any high school and you'll find just about any drug you could ever want available for sale, most with no waiting. Legalizing drugs would place them in the same regulated category as alcohol, which is actually more difficult for kids to obtain than drugs are in most places.

And that's just in high schools. If tragedy and disaster are looming at the university level, they've been awfully quiet about it. College campuses are cesspools of drug abuse, with ready availability, eager customers and no quality control at all.

It's hard for me to see how legalization could possibly make thing any worse than they already are. It would more likely make things better overall, as the violent buttholes who profit from trade in illegal drugs are put out of business. I'm certainly no fan of illicit drug use, by anyone, but complaining that legalization will somehow open the door to kids abusing drugs is just silly - they're already doing it, and all the law enforcement efforts deployed against the drug trade have had absolutely no effect at all on those sales.

132 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:02:28pm

Speaking of marijuana

My favorite Mollusk

133 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:02:58pm

re: #129 Slumbering Behemoth

So the answer is no?

134 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:03:05pm

re: #126 researchok

Fair question, to be sure.

On the other hand, are we are brother's keeper?

You can't make someone give a damn about themselves.

135 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:03:51pm

re: #123 Sharmuta

I don't think it really makes any difference. I did a lot of drugs when I was a kid. Some of the worst kids were the ones with permissive parents who let us get high in the house. Now that I think of it most of the kids that really got into trouble with drugs were the ones with either very permissive or very strict parents. The kids with average parents tended to do ok with it.

136 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:03:55pm

re: #123 Sharmuta

I've long held that part of the problem with hard drugs is we lie to kids about marijuana by lumping it in with other hard drugs. Kids try pot, find it's not so bad, then figure they'll try something else because the weed wasn't so bad- maybe we lied to them about the coke too.

Maybe I'm off base, but it can't help to be intentionally lying about it.

Reefer Madness...from the 30's
people may smoke alot of pot and not want to quit but it is not addicting...to lump it with narcotics is just plain wrong

137 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:03:58pm

re: #118 Iron Fist

One of those vested interests is organized crime. Not just the Mafia, but everyone from the Hell's Angels to Chinese Triads are opposed to legalization. It would end their profitable business. Why buy something of indeterminate quality smuggled from somewhere when you can buy your high-quality smack at your local drug store?

Certainly addiction is bad, and it isn't really a victimless crime, but the "war on drugs" has been a dismal failure. It is time to admit it, and move on to something that can work.

Most states have gotten into the gambling addiction by having state lotteries, so why not go whole hog and tax legal drugs. Quite a few people I know who do drugs now would love to have a quality product, as easy to get as ciggies or booze is now.

138 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:04:23pm

re: #110 albusteve

recovery from coke, or meth or opiates cannot be willful....sanctioned by law

Well I don't understand what you mean. People do come to the conclusion, usually after they've lost their families, their jobs, etc. that they need help. I know a few folks who went willingly to rehab. Some not so willingly, but not taken by the law.

139 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:04:36pm

re: #133 researchok

If you believe in individual liberty, the answer is "no".

If you believe in a nanny state, then the answer is "yes".

140 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:04:39pm

re: #132 Dar ul Harbarian

Nice.

141 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:05:56pm

re: #126 researchok

Fair question, to be sure.

On the other hand, are we are brother's keeper?

My personal brother? Yes. When he was using I couldn't force anything on him, but I did write him a letter (I thought it would have more impact than a verbal message) telling him how much I loved him and wanted him to get better. What else could I do?

142 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:06:40pm

re: #135 Killgore Trout

I don't think it really makes any difference. I did a lot of drugs when I was a kid. Some of the worst kids were the ones with permissive parents who let us get high in the house. Now that I think of it most of the kids that really got into trouble with drugs were the ones with either very permissive or very strict parents. The kids with average parents tended to do ok with it.

The lesson then may simply go back to moderation.
Being to strict on a child can lead to rebellion, to lenient can lead kids to, I don't give a damn.

143 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:06:47pm

re: #138 american sabra

Well I don't understand what you mean. People do come to the conclusion, usually after they've lost their families, their jobs, etc. that they need help. I know a few folks who went willingly to rehab. Some not so willingly, but not taken by the law.

if they are addicted they are criminal...if they are not caught then so be it, they can dry out on their own

144 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:07:17pm

re: #135 Killgore Trout

I don't think it really makes any difference. I did a lot of drugs when I was a kid. Some of the worst kids were the ones with permissive parents who let us get high in the house. Now that I think of it most of the kids that really got into trouble with drugs were the ones with either very permissive or very strict parents. The kids with average parents tended to do ok with it.

Boy- I'll never forget the time my Dad found my bong. It was in my own apartment, and being the former pot fiend he was, he looked at me and said, "just keep it away from your sister."

That's the only lecture I ever got.

145 Toastrider  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:08:13pm

While not a huge fan of narcotics, I have to wonder exactly WHAT we've gotten out of this forty year Prohibition.

Besides massive corruption in Central and South America (which occasionally crops up here), abuses of power, over-militarized police forces who insist that kicking down doors is their right...

Addiction is bad news, yes. Kevin Smith wrote on his blog a series of posts called 'Me And My Shadow', about his friend Jason Mewes. Mewes was heavily addicted to several drugs; he had to hit rock bottom before he could finally kick his habit. Reading Smith's account is a disturbing peek into just how screwed up an addict can get.

But as I said before: Exactly what kind of progress have we made? It's not like the war on terrorist asshats, where in my opinion we have made progress. Not as much as I'd like, but the progress is there. As far as Prohibition 2: Electric Boogaloo goes, I sure as hell don't see much progress.

146 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:08:42pm

No doubt, more stoned voters equals more Obama voters. Let's just hope they forget to vote next time, but I wouldn't count on it.

While on the subject; El Marco did an amazing photo essay a few weeks ago that's worth having a look at: It’s 4:20. Do You Know Where Your Children Are?

147 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:09:47pm

re: #144 Sharmuta

Boy- I'll never forget the time my Dad found my bong. It was in my own apartment, and being the former pot fiend he was, he looked at me and said, "just keep it away from your sister."

That's the only lecture I ever got.

I've smoked pot with both my kids...no big deal...they are way too busy to get involved further than a weekend bowl or two...it's their choice....dentistry is more important than running around looking for a bag of weed

148 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:10:21pm

re: #131 SixDegrees

It's hard for me to see how legalization could possibly make thing any worse than they already are. It would more likely make things better overall, as the violent buttholes who profit from trade in illegal drugs are put out of business.

So TV commercials, radio promotions, print ads for drugs, etc, are a good idea?

Look, I know what goes on in schools. My point is that at least now kids know it's wrong.

Alcohol and beer are marketed as mood enhancers, etc. As the mother/father/spouse/child of a user how they feel about that.

149 Silvergirl  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:11:11pm

re: #131 SixDegrees

Uh - what?

The current illegal drug purveyors are already marketing to kids. Walk into any high school and you'll find just about any drug you could ever want available for sale, most with no waiting. Legalizing drugs would place them in the same regulated category as alcohol, which is actually more difficult for kids to obtain than drugs are in most places.

And that's just in high schools. If tragedy and disaster are looming at the university level, they've been awfully quiet about it. College campuses are cesspools of drug abuse, with ready availability, eager customers and no quality control at all.

It's hard for me to see how legalization could possibly make thing any worse than they already are. It would more likely make things better overall, as the violent buttholes who profit from trade in illegal drugs are put out of business. I'm certainly no fan of illicit drug use, by anyone, but complaining that legalization will somehow open the door to kids abusing drugs is just silly - they're already doing it, and all the law enforcement efforts deployed against the drug trade have had absolutely no effect at all on those sales.

They took the soda machines out of most of the schools in the U.S. There aren't any cigarette machines that I know of, at least not in K through 12. Should we put in state sanctioned marijuana machines? Go from Coca-Cola to cocaine?

150 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:11:17pm

re: #146 Ringo the Gringo

No doubt, more stoned voters equals more Obama voters. Let's just hope they forget to vote next time, but I wouldn't count on it.

While on the subject; El Marco did an amazing photo essay a few weeks ago that's worth having a look at: It’s 4:20. Do You Know Where Your Children Are?

I love the pics of the haze!

151 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:11:36pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Agreed.

That said, to be a brother's keeper when it's easy is...easy.

The obligation is also there when it isn't so easy.

152 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:12:46pm

re: #151 researchok

Agreed.

That said, to be a brother's keeper when it's easy is...easy.

The obligation is also there when it isn't so easy.

And it's something I'd like kept to the private sector, not the government.

153 davinvalkri  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:12:56pm

College Campus. No comment.

154 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:13:18pm

re: #146 Ringo the Gringo

No doubt, more stoned voters equals more Obama voters. Let's just hope they forget to vote next time, but I wouldn't count on it.

While on the subject; El Marco did an amazing photo essay a few weeks ago that's worth having a look at: It’s 4:20. Do You Know Where Your Children Are?

Yeah, but the irony there is that most of those kids will end up getting a degree from UC Boulder and go on to earn advanced degrees. From there they will enter a professional career and go on to earn above average productive lives.

155 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:13:18pm
156 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:13:25pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

You can't make someone give a damn about themselves.

ewwww.. Good Evening Lizards.. A drug thread..Who knew? LOL
Listen..The only thing about drugs is raising children...It is increadably difficult to raise children with drugs in our culture..
I always worried and tried so hard to give them a chance to succeed...
All I ask is that we give our kids a chance to succeed in 21st Century America..
Our War on drugs was so much focused...
let me close this note with the famous song..
God Damn the pusher man

157 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:14:07pm

re: #149 Silvergirl

They took the soda machines out of most of the schools in the U.S. There aren't any cigarette machines that I know of, at least not in K through 12. Should we put in state sanctioned marijuana machines? Go from Coca-Cola to cocaine?

hardly worth a comment...I don't think that's what he's saying

158 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:14:13pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

That I agree with, for the most part.

159 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:14:55pm

re: #126 researchok

Fair question, to be sure.

On the other hand, are we are brother's keeper?

Individually, yes. The moment you let the government in to do it, forget being a free society.

160 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:15:33pm

re: #123 Sharmuta

I've long held that part of the problem with hard drugs is we lie to kids about marijuana by lumping it in with other hard drugs. Kids try pot, find it's not so bad, then figure they'll try something else because the weed wasn't so bad- maybe we lied to them about the coke too.

Maybe I'm off base, but it can't help to be intentionally lying about it.


You sound like my husband. He tells our kids that people do drugs for one reason: it makes you feel good. Nevertheless, it's illegal and you shouldn't break the law. AFAIK, only one of the three tried pot once, didn't like it, and never touched it again.

161 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:16:07pm

re: #159 FurryOldGuyJeans

Individually, yes. The moment you let the government in to do it, forget being a free society.

So welfare, medicare, social security are all bad things?

162 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:16:57pm
163 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:17:08pm

re: #161 researchok

So welfare, medicare, social security are all bad things?

Government run, yes. 100% absolutely.

164 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:17:42pm

re: #161 researchok

So welfare, medicare, social security are all bad things?

All three are systematically abused.

165 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:18:19pm

re: #161 researchok

So welfare, medicare, social security are all bad things?

brick...

166 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:18:31pm

re: #142 DEZes

The lesson then may simply go back to moderation.
Being to strict on a child can lead to rebellion, to lenient can lead kids to, I don't give a damn.

Exactly. I had a couple of rough years with my daughter when she was in her teens. I was afraid of cracking down too hard and pushing her into more bad behavior while at the same time trying to maintain some standards.
All I could hope for was that I was planting enough seeds and that some of them would sprout.
Thank God they did and she is a wonderful young woman, smart and accomplished. And she calls her dad at least twice a day...even though she's married and living in Chicago and I'm in LA. She calls me every night to say goodnight.
I am truly blessed.

167 Silvergirl  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:18:55pm

re: #157 albusteve

hardly worth a comment...I don't think that's what he's saying

The post in question started out with

The current illegal drug purveyors are already marketing to kids. Walk into any high school and you'll find just about any drug you could ever want available for sale, most with no waiting. Legalizing drugs would place them in the same regulated category as alcohol, which is actually more difficult for kids to obtain than drugs are in most places.

The rest of the post mentions quality control twice. I read it as getting rid of the illegal purveyors of drugs and put in the legal ones. My "hardly worth a comment" post doesn't seem such a stretch to me.

168 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:20:04pm

What do you think about the way Amsterdam handles the issue?

169 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:20:40pm

re: #166 LGoPs

Exactly. I had a couple of rough years with my daughter when she was in her teens. I was afraid of cracking down too hard and pushing her into more bad behavior while at the same time trying to maintain some standards.
All I could hope for was that I was planting enough seeds and that some of them would sprout.
Thank God they did and she is a wonderful young woman, smart and accomplished. And she calls her dad at least twice a day...even though she's married and living in Chicago and I'm in LA. She calls me every night to say goodnight.
I am truly blessed.

Nothing a parent can do can make a perfect child.
But still nothing comes closer than a loving caring parent.
You did well, as did your daughter.
Kudos.

170 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:20:47pm

re: #160 doppelganglander

You sound like my husband. He tells our kids that people do drugs for one reason: it makes you feel good. Nevertheless, it's illegal and you shouldn't break the law. AFAIK, only one of the three tried pot once, didn't like it, and never touched it again.

I know plenty of people like that. I know hard core pot smokers who have just grown out of the need to smoke it, too.

But for me this comes down to a matter of individual rights. We either agree a person has autonomy over their bodies or they don't. When the right to your own body is denied, what do you really have left?

This isn't much different, imo, then teaching kids about other choices they have in front of them that can make their lives much more difficult if they make poor choices- such as sex. Or credit card spending. There are a lot of ways to screw up your life out there.

171 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:20:58pm

re: #164 DEZes

I agree they are abused- but does that mean we throw them out?

172 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:21:19pm

re: #168 american sabra

What do you think about the way Amsterdam handles the issue?

it sucks...legal heroin junkies with needles scattered in all the parks...legal pot is not the same thing...that needs to be clear

173 Throbert McGee  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:21:46pm

Has anyone said anything yet about people who crush and snort their (entirely legal) painkillers to improve the recreational side-effects?

And if you can't get a doctor to write you a scrip for painkillers, there's always Junior's ADHD meds...

Hyperactivity is a medical tragedy that strikes 1 out of every 1 American children. You should consult a doctor about it; maybe he'll give your child drugs, and you can steal them. -- ©1989 P.J. O'Rourke, in Modern Manners

174 doubter4444  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:21:52pm

Funnily enough, one of this boards favorite people, Moby, when asked what he would wish for if he could pick one of science's greatest accomplishments suggested that he would like to find a way for science to figure out how to remove the habit forming, and addictive elements of recreational drugs.

I've alway thought that interesting: If drugs like Coke and Heroin And Alcohol were NOT addictive, would people still be against them? Is it really that they hurt people or is it more of a temperance thing? Or a religious/personal values thing? And would they still need to be illegal?
He was not saying they could be used anytime anywhere, they still got you high, and being under the influence laws would still apply...just lose the addictive, destructive part or the chemical itself.

I think it's something to think about. I'm not saying you still could not mess up your life, but it'd be a personal choice, not a physical addiction kind of thing.

175 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:21:57pm

re: #168 american sabra

I read recently that some cities were closing down their coffee shops (aka hash bars) because the drug tourists were getting too out of control.

176 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:22:00pm

re: #162 Iron Fist

The way I look at it is that it is just like Prohibition, and it has the same problems that Prohibition had. If nothing else legalization would end much of the violence that is associate with drugs. When smack is worthe $50 grand a pound (for example. I have no idea what the street value of heroine is), a few pounds of smack are worth killing over. There are negatives to legalization, but I feel that the issue of reducing violent crime is a plus that outweighs the negatives. If nothing else, we saw the end of Prohibition the end of much of the associated violence. You don't see the guy who drives the Budweiser truck shooting down the guy who drives for Coors. The thought of that happening is ridiculous. If other drugs were made legal, the idea of one distributor shooting another for horning in on his territory would be equally ridiculous.

I've been leaning more towards that viewpoint lately as well. If drugs were legalized the only provision I'd like to see is that if someone totally fucks up their life on drugs it ain't my fault. Meaning I don't want to be made to pay for their sorry ass. Everythig in moderation.......

177 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:22:01pm

re: #144 Sharmuta

Boy- I'll never forget the time my Dad found my bong. It was in my own apartment, and being the former pot fiend he was, he looked at me and said, "just keep it away from your sister."

That's the only lecture I ever got.

I grew up in Thailand so had a lot of exposure to drugs. Tried pot. Boring. And it was the mean stuff.

So I figured that everyone was faking the 'cool' bit about smoking ganja.

On the other hand, I saw young teenagers do heroin and die.

Dying young was not my idea of being 'cool' either.

178 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:22:27pm

re: #171 researchok

I agree they are abused- but does that mean we throw them out?

of course not...omi the question hinged on 'govt run'

179 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:23:11pm

re: #163 FurryOldGuyJeans

Government run, yes. 100% absolutely.

So if there isn't enough to go around, let the chips fall where they may?

If a child needs medical care and his parents can't afford the care. tough luck?

My point is this- how a society treat the less fortunate in their midst speaks to the values of that society.

180 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:23:54pm

re: #166 LGoPs

Exactly. I had a couple of rough years with my daughter when she was in her teens. I was afraid of cracking down too hard and pushing her into more bad behavior while at the same time trying to maintain some standards.
All I could hope for was that I was planting enough seeds and that some of them would sprout.
Thank God they did and she is a wonderful young woman, smart and accomplished. And she calls her dad at least twice a day...even though she's married and living in Chicago and I'm in LA. She calls me every night to say goodnight.
I am truly blessed.


That is exactly why you have a big family..You never have to tell the bigs and Bee's to a kid with a couple of older brothers and sisters..
I know for a fact the boys handed down the p0rn to each other..
'You lose my playboy collection and you are dead'
kids...

181 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:24:04pm

re: #130 nyc redneck

what lucky but vicious bitter victims. that's what happens.
welfare becomes a right. taken for granted. demanded.
didn't "poor" people used to have some gratitude and manners?

I've been poor.
What I did was figure out a way not to be poor anymore.
And then worked toward that goal.

And yes, while I was poor, I had a great deal of gratitude for any help that came my way.

182 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:24:47pm

re: #167 Silvergirl

The rest of the post mentions quality control twice. I read it as getting rid of the illegal purveyors of drugs and put in the legal ones. My "hardly worth a comment" post doesn't seem such a stretch to me.

Well with all respect, I don't think SixDegrees was entirely accurate. Meaning that I went to HS in the 70s and I had no problem finding anything I wanted, pot, qualudes, acid, so that has never changed. And we have never seen pot, coke or cigs being dispensed to little kids either.

183 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:24:57pm

re: #178 albusteve

of course not...omi the question hinged on 'govt run'

There are times govt does what we don't, won't or can't.

184 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:25:05pm

re: #180 HoosierHoops

That is exactly why you have a big family..You never have to tell the birds and Bee's to a kid with a couple of older brothers and sisters..
I know for a fact the boys handed down the p0rn to each other..
'You lose my playboy collection and you are dead'
kids...


PIMF

185 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:25:11pm

re: #146 Ringo the Gringo

No doubt, more stoned voters equals more Obama voters. Let's just hope they forget to vote next time, but I wouldn't count on it.

While on the subject; El Marco did an amazing photo essay a few weeks ago that's worth having a look at: It’s 4:20. Do You Know Where Your Children Are?

Tee shirt: Weeding is Fundamental

LOL!

186 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:25:46pm

re: #183 researchok

There are times govt does what we don't, won't or can't.

don't bother me...I'm rolling a joint

187 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:25:46pm

re: #171 researchok

I agree they are abused- but does that mean we throw them out?

Welfare, yes it should be thrown out, or get a major overhaul,
Someone gets a check, fine, have a blue buss pick em up 5 days a week and make em earn it.
Medicare not so much.
Social security, I could make a house payment with what is taken from me every month

188 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:26:11pm

re: #171 researchok

I agree they are abused- but does that mean we throw them out?

We need to get the federal government out of the charity business. The states and local communities need to be the nexus for any such program if there is to be any governmental intervention. Best if private charities did the work. There would be individual accountability and responsibility being promoted again. Hard to make people take charge of their lives when they are given free largess.

Letting the feds take charge is using a nuke to swat a fly.

189 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:26:30pm

re: #186 albusteve

LOLOLOL

190 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:26:37pm

re: #179 researchok

My point is this- how a society treat the less fortunate in their midst speaks to the values of that society.

And I don't disagree with you- but it's still something that could get dealt with through the private sector, charity. I thought that's why churches originally founded hospitals.

191 wrenchwench  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:27:10pm

Prohibition = price supports and market protection for the dealers.

192 american sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:27:19pm

re: #172 albusteve

it sucks...legal heroin junkies with needles scattered in all the parks...legal pot is not the same thing...that needs to be clear

The junkies are going to exist, whether we see them or we don't. I think that's the point. No, it's not the same as pot, but then again, you can buy a little grass at the local cafe to eat or smoke, right out in public (no, I've never been! and would like to go for lots of reasons actually). The Dutch put them all in one place. Not really a bad idea.

193 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:28:55pm

re: #188 FurryOldGuyJeans

We need to get the federal government out of the charity business. The states and local communities need to be the nexus for any such program if there is to be any governmental intervention. Best if private charities did the work. There would be individual accountability and responsibility being promoted again. Hard to make people take charge of their lives when they are given free largess.

Letting the feds take charge is using a nuke to swat a fly.

I couldn't agree more!

That said, state and local governments are government.
It really boils down to who we are. Helping others is more important to us as a society than it is the individuals we help.

194 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:29:34pm

re: #187 DEZes

Welfare, yes it should be thrown out, or get a major overhaul,
Someone gets a check, fine, have a blue buss pick em up 5 days a week and make em earn it.
Medicare not so much.
Social security, I could make a house payment with what is taken from me every month

I couldn't agree more. Hell een if all they did was make them walk the highways and pick up trash, at least they would be a start.

195 blangwort  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:29:36pm

When you go to war, you go to war against someone, not something. You can win a war against someone. You can't win a war against anything.

It is reasonable to go to war against the Taliban and Al Qaida. It is not reasonable to go to war against a product, ill health, or a behavior. There is no way you can win those wars.

I've always groaned at the thought of a war on poverty, a war against cancer, a war against drug abuse, and so on. I'm also very much against these "Czar" positions. WTF is a Drug Czar? Is there some reason why we shouldn't use existing governmental units such as the DEA?

Just as Obama wants comprehensible credit lending policies from credit card companies, I want comprehensible government. I think these bolt-on tiger team groups are bizarre, flaccid, and pointlessly confusing bits of showmanship. Both parties have used them. And if we would just speak up, I think it would stop being so politically attractive to so many politicians of all flavors.

I give the president kudos for stopping a practice that is toxic to actual progress. It didn't cost him much, but if it is a genuine effort at open governance, I'll give him credit for a degree of honesty that many of his predecessors didn't have.

196 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:30:43pm

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

197 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:31:10pm

re: #179 researchok

We are running up against government run programs now becoming insolvent MUCH sooner than has predicted. The solution is not to throw yet more money we don't have at a problem that was and is largely based on government interference.

There were poor before the federal government stepped in throwing money at the problem, and if the statistics are even remotely accurate they are even more numerous now.

198 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:31:43pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

BINGO

199 afton  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:31:45pm

re: #18 Thanos

It's time to end all wars that are not real wars. War is an extreme in which there are few rules. I don't like social or political small-w "wars".

So Fox, while we are at it you can take your culture war and shove it.

Is that you Chris? Chris Matthews? You're really here at LGF?!

200 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:32:25pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

And I don't disagree with you- but it's still something that could get dealt with through the private sector, charity. I thought that's why churches originally founded hospitals.

Interesting point.

That said, hospitals founded by religious orders were in no small measure founded by communities who might have been excluded by others in their community.

Further, we are a society founded on Judeo-Christian ethos- that is, we expect our government to share our charitable and moral values and to make sure they are applied equally.

201 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:32:32pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

And I don't disagree with you- but it's still something that could get dealt with through the private sector, charity. I thought that's why churches originally founded hospitals.

One element - crucial in my mind - that private charity adds to the equation is a sense of gratitude from the recipient. And I think along with that would come a not unhealthy motivation to do something to keep from having to ask for more help.
When the help comes from the government, the element of gratitude disappears and is replaced by a sense of entitlement which leads to more demands and a concurrent lessening of the motivation to get off the dole.

202 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:33:22pm
203 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:33:30pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

THAT we are in full agreement. Pop culture has dumbed us down, big time.

204 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:33:32pm

re: #148 researchok


It's hard for me to see how legalization could possibly make thing any worse than they already are. It would more likely make things better overall, as the violent buttholes who profit from trade in illegal drugs are put out of business.

So TV commercials, radio promotions, print ads for drugs, etc, are a good idea?

Ads for alcohol are lightly regulated, but are easy enough to come by. Do you have any evidence that these ads contribute to kiddy alcohol abuse? If there were even the faintest evidence of such a connection, you can be sure they would never see the light of day, so I'm guessing there isn't any.

And, just to repeat myself, putting everything out in the open makes it visible, by definition. What sort of pitch do you think the pushers in your local high school are making?

I prefer my enemies where I can see them. Although in this case, you are overstating the case and invoking boogie men that don't exist.

205 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:33:45pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

My big screen, my precious.
I seldom watch TV, I do like a good movie played on my TV though.;)

206 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:33:48pm

re: #193 researchok

I couldn't agree more!

That said, state and local governments are government.
It really boils down to who we are. Helping others is more important to us as a society than it is the individuals we help.

One reason why I really want NO government intervention, period. Private charities and hospitals did just fine doing things on their own before we were FORCED into being compassionate by government.

207 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:33:51pm

re: #192 american sabra

The junkies are going to exist, whether we see them or we don't. I think that's the point. No, it's not the same as pot, but then again, you can buy a little grass at the local cafe to eat or smoke, right out in public (no, I've never been! and would like to go for lots of reasons actually). The Dutch put them all in one place. Not really a bad idea.

Hi...Not quite in Amsterdam.. You can't do pot in public..You must in a cafe..
They love tourists so it's not in your face..
And they put them all in one place.. There are spots where all the coke heads go..Heroin in other moving hot spots..
When I stay at the golden Tulip at 10pm everything on TV but CNN goes p0rn..
/I'm not complaining

208 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:35:30pm

re: #107 Sharmuta

I'm sorry for your loss. Sometimes- there is no helping them.

I had a lady friend drink herself to death- she had liver disease, and couldn't stop drinking. And that's a legal substance. Jail might have kept her alive, but is it right to do that to someone?

not jail, but a locked institution with treatment until recovery....no money for jails, just hospitals and institutions.

209 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:35:36pm

re: #200 researchok

Interesting point.

That said, hospitals founded by religious orders were in no small measure founded by communities who might have been excluded by others in their community.

Further, we are a society founded on Judeo-Christian ethos- that is, we expect our government to share our charitable and moral values and to make sure they are applied equally.

Noooo. No no no no no. I don't want equality of results- no government can give you that. What we can get is equality of opportunity. We all have the opportunity here to get healthcare. Doesn't mean we can all pay for it, or government should fix it so we can all pay for it. Hospitals don't turn people away in this country because they're broke. They treat them and send them the bill anyways.

210 Michael Perz  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:35:39pm

While I'd like to view any development in this matter as a positive one, I've never been very enthusiastic about the vision for legalization coming from the left. Their proposed approach has always carried with it the erroneous presupposition that most drug users are addicts. Their solution to this problem, naturally, is for the government to spend its way out of it.

211 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:36:05pm

re: #201 LGoPs

One element - crucial in my mind - that private charity adds to the equation is a sense of gratitude from the recipient. And I think along with that would come a not unhealthy motivation to do something to keep from having to ask for more help.
When the help comes from the government, the element of gratitude disappears and is replaced by a sense of entitlement which leads to more demands and a concurrent lessening of the motivation to get off the dole.

Agreed. Help from the goverment doesn't seem personel. It's just a big magic entity that has tons of money.

212 Silvergirl  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:36:14pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

I sometimes wonder if it will soon be surpassed by the internet. Of course it depends where you traffic and where you channel surf.

213 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:36:34pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

At least no one that ever watched to much TV ran a red light and killed a family..
I like TV..I get to watch sports and the science channel..
/Hope you are well sharm

214 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:37:11pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

There's a humorous commercial being run by Hula, I believe, which is refreshing because it openly states that very thing........

215 HelloDare  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:37:18pm

Palate cleanser: Mega Shark vs Giant Octopus trailer

216 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:37:48pm

re: #213 HoosierHoops

At least no one that ever watched to much TV ran a red light and killed a family..
I like TV..I get to watch sports and the science channel..
/Hope you are well sharm

Worse than driving. They watch TV and then they vote. For 0bama.

217 Liberal Classic  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:37:56pm

As a libertarian-leaning type of person, I see the shift in public policy from prohibition to regulation as a good thing. Drug prohibition, like the alcohol prohibition before it, hasn't stopped drug abuse and has had a number of unintended negative consequences.

That having been said, I am generally skeptical of the current administration. I don't trust the democrats to take a libertarian idea and not screw it up.

218 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:37:57pm

re: #197 FurryOldGuyJeans

There were poor before the federal government stepped in throwing money at the problem, and if the statistics are even remotely accurate they are even more numerous now.

Absolutely- and in every big city were tenements where thousands died. Children were taken from their immigrant parents and sent to the midwest farms to be indentured servants.

The government Rural Electrification Project and the TVA were a boon to the nation and turned us into an economic powerhouse.

Look, I'm no fan of bg govt- I hate it! That said, we also have to recognize that we need government.

219 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:38:42pm

re: #110 albusteve

Laws don't mean shit to an addict.......only a desire to get clean will work.
It's a mental not moral dilemma.

220 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:39:06pm

re: #196 Sharmuta

I think the biggest brain rotting drug this society has is called "television".

True, if one only watches crap. There's non-crap out there on cable, though. And I ain't talking about wrestling. :)

221 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:39:34pm

re: #220 rightymouse

True, if one only watches crap. There's non-crap out there on cable, though. And I ain't talking about wrestling. :)

I did learn a lot from Alton Brown. :)

222 GeicoGecko  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:39:34pm
223 wrenchwench  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:39:55pm

Prescription drugs can also be abused.

224 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:40:01pm

re: #162 Iron Fist

The way I look at it is that it is just like Prohibition, and it has the same problems that Prohibition had. If nothing else legalization would end much of the violence that is associate with drugs. When smack is worthe $50 grand a pound (for example. I have no idea what the street value of heroine is), a few pounds of smack are worth killing over. There are negatives to legalization, but I feel that the issue of reducing violent crime is a plus that outweighs the negatives. If nothing else, we saw the end of Prohibition the end of much of the associated violence. You don't see the guy who drives the Budweiser truck shooting down the guy who drives for Coors. The thought of that happening is ridiculous. If other drugs were made legal, the idea of one distributor shooting another for horning in on his territory would be equally ridiculous.

Take a look at Great Britain's laws...and Great Britain.

Londonstan.

225 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:40:59pm

Afternoon Lizards.

226 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:41:14pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

Noooo. No no no no no. I don't want equality of results- no government can give you that. What we can get is equality of opportunity. We all have the opportunity here to get healthcare. Doesn't mean we can all pay for it, or government should fix it so we can all pay for it. Hospitals don't turn people away in this country because they're broke. They treat them and send them the bill anyways.

OK, now here's great conversation!

First question: How do we guarantee quality of opportunity? In neighboring SC, there are schools in black towns that are falling apart. How does the state address that, if not with the application of funds that mighrt otherwise be spent on parks in white suburbs?

227 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:42:20pm

re: #194 screaming_eagle

Exactly, they do it with people on probation.

228 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:42:46pm

re: #225 rightside

Afternoon Lizards.

Good evening right..
How goes it?
drank too much coffee at work today...But really good coffee

229 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:42:57pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

I did learn a lot from Alton Brown. :)

Not Rachel Ray? :)

Can't watch cooking shows meself. I'd rather scan recipes and then spend hours mucking about in the kitchen making the food myself. LOVE to cook. It's cathartic for me.

230 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:42:59pm

Hey y'all - raining hard enough here to start seriously thinking about building an ark!
I have to tip my hat to Obama on this one (a small hat tip, perhaps, but a hat tip nonetheless).
For 40+ years we've been fighting an war on drugs, without ever going for the jugular - taking the outrageous amounts of profit out of dealing drugs. There are lots of reasons why we haven't - those enormous profits also can be used to buy crooked cops, lawyers, judges and politicians of all stripes and parties.
My only quibble here is with this: “We’re not at war with people in this country.” Well we sure as hell ought to be at war with the folks who deal for a living in cocaine, crack, meth, and heroin. We ought to round them up (if you've ever lived for any length of time in a large urban area you know exactly who they are and where they can be found).
And while I agree that cig's and booze are at least as addicting as any of the illegal "drugs" the fact remains that we have three or more generations of Americans who smoked cigarettes and got "hooked" without even knowing that the cigarette makers were spiking the nicotine in the cigs they made.
We tried to outlaw booze and wound up making outlaws of alarming numbers of otherwise law-abiding citizens simply because governments (Federal, State and local) can't seem to keep their noses out of other folks business.
Yes, I know, cig's and booze add a burden to our health system and second hand smoke may in fact be as bad as the direct kind, but a line needs to be drawn where WE the people have a chance at winning - and while we have cut down on Cig smokers (and to some extent boozers) the fact is what people choose to do in their own homes ought to be their own business, SO LONG AS THEY DON'T HARM OTHER PEOPLE. Coke, Meth and the like do hurt users but also hurt those who are robbed and beaten to get the money to pay for those drugs. I don't recall ever reading where anyone mugged anyone for the price of a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of booze.
So as I said, a hat tip to President Obama on this one.

231 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:43:30pm

re: #220 rightymouse

True, if one only watches crap. There's non-crap out there on cable, though. And I ain't talking about wrestling. :)

I've never understood the wrestling phenomenon. The only time I've ever watched it is when I've accidentally run across it and then gotten mesmerized watching the audience.....not quite believing that people can actually watch that shit. Don't they know it's all fake?

232 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:43:48pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

Good here, humid day though. Took the afternoon off, and wanted to pop in on a relatively harmless thread, lol

233 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:44:13pm

re: #231 LGoPs

It's like a soap opera, only with sweat.

234 Lokotes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:44:46pm

Now this is an initiative I can get on board for. Ruining people's lives over personal-use drugs is crazy. Go after the big fish perhaps, but leave the average pot smoker alone.

235 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:45:45pm

re: #219 IslandLibertarian

Laws don't mean shit to an addict.......only a desire to get clean will work.
It's a mental not moral dilemma.

laws mean everything when you are incarcerated

236 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:46:28pm

re: #231 LGoPs

I've never understood the wrestling phenomenon. The only time I've ever watched it is when I've accidentally run across it and then gotten mesmerized watching the audience.....not quite believing that people can actually watch that shit. Don't they know it's all fake?

LOL. I know a couple people who if you say "wrestling is fake" around them you are asking for a fight.

237 callahan23  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:46:33pm

I was thrown out of Firefox again.
Am already seriously cross-eyed from sleep deprivation. It's been a very long 'n tough week.
Meet you down the threads again.
{Lizardim}

238 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:46:49pm

re: #217 Liberal Classic

As a libertarian-leaning type of person, I see the shift in public policy from prohibition to regulation as a good thing. Drug prohibition, like the alcohol prohibition before it, hasn't stopped drug abuse and has had a number of unintended negative consequences.

That having been said, I am generally skeptical of the current administration. I don't trust the democrats to take a libertarian idea and not screw it up.

You too. Take a good look at Britain.

'World class' socialized medicine and guberment. Do you really want to go there?

My suggestion...by a plane ticket.

239 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:47:02pm

re: #237 callahan23

Later, rest easy.

240 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:47:09pm

re: #218 researchok

We need LESS government, not more. As it stands for ever how long the government has been in the charity business, and don't for one second think it isn't a business, individual spending on charity is WAY DOWN. Yet more money is WASTED simply because there is a one size fits all State Run solution being applied.

The government, federal, state, and local, needs to return to the job only they can do, and that is not charity. Private institutions and individuals were able to do it.

241 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:47:16pm

re: #232 rightside

Good here, humid day though. Took the afternoon off, and wanted to pop in on a relatively harmless thread, lol

Nice..
I can't believe how much rain we got..I have a gallon bucket in the backyard completely full..
Maybe Al Gore should work on getting rain to drought areas..He could work on that for 20 years.

242 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:47:47pm

re: #231 LGoPs

I've never understood the wrestling phenomenon. The only time I've ever watched it is when I've accidentally run across it and then gotten mesmerized watching the audience.....not quite believing that people can actually watch that shit. Don't they know it's all fake?

A freind of mine handed me a DVD one day and said watch this.
I looked at the blank cover and asked what is it.
He grinned and said naked girls wrestling, I must be getting old, I was bored in under 3 minutes and turned it off.

243 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:47:52pm

re: #226 researchok

How do we guarantee quality of opportunity?

Quality of opportunity? That's starting to get subjective.

244 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:48:19pm

re: #237 callahan23

{Callahan}
Sleep well.

245 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:48:33pm

re: #230 realwest

PFFFFFT! You want rain, come to Western Washington up here in the Great NorthWet. What you are getting is something out of the ordinary.

246 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:48:39pm

re: #229 rightymouse

Not Rachel Ray? :)

Can't watch cooking shows meself. I'd rather scan recipes and then spend hours mucking about in the kitchen making the food myself. LOVE to cook. It's cathartic for me.

Alton was the only one I liked because it wasn't just learning about recipes, but the science of cooking. It's a great show.

247 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:49:31pm

re: #241 HoosierHoops

God, make him just go away!

248 debutaunt  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:49:32pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

Alton was the only one I liked because it wasn't just learning about recipes, but the science of cooking. It's a great show.

I really enjoy his style of teaching.

249 doubter4444  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:49:33pm
HoosierHoops


I like the Golden Tulip
On business (if there is the $ in the budget), it's usually the Pulitizer, which while a very nice place, is really stuffy, but you can't beat the location.
Love the "brown bars" in the area, love Amsterdam, been there often for a number of years. My only problem is at the end of an evening all those darn streets and canals look the same.
You come out of a bar and don't know which corner to turn on!
That and and having to jump out of the way of some blond girl riding a bike all hell bent for some where.

250 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:49:48pm

re: #248 debutaunt

I really enjoy his style of teaching.

He has a great wit.

251 gatorbait  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:50:10pm

I propose a preemptive WAR ON DIRGES.

Somber songs are a'comin. Need to nip em in the bud.

252 wrenchwench  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:50:25pm

I am still trying to figure out why it was only last month that they started checking people and vehicles heading into Mexico, instead of only those coming into the US. They are stopping a lot of money, a fair amount of guns, and some wanted criminals from crossing the border. The only reason I can come up with is that somebody didn't want the money stopped. Things got so bad, they couldn't keep going that way. The cartels seem to have finally over-reached.

253 Clubsec  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:50:34pm

Cocain, cocain, swirling all around your brain.
Horse doctor says it'll kill you, but he don't say when.

Obamanomics ...
We will tax and tax and spend and spend.
- true quote from a New Deal Democrat (name escapes me)
Attributable to many a present day Democrat imo.

254 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:50:47pm

re: #251 gatorbait

Don't forget violins on TV!

255 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:51:18pm

re: #235 albusteve
Hmmm - No, not really - there have been studies made that show the availability of most drugs in prisons (especially the State and larger urban prisons) is just as available to inmates as it is on the outside world.
Imprisoning someone for what is, after all, an illness isn't the right way to go - we've been there and done that without any real noticeable success. That's why I specified in my #230 people who deal drugs for profit. They are sometimes, but I suspect rarely, ever "hooked" on their own product; it's simply something you can start as a business with a relatively small amount of capital and turn a 300% or greater profit. That's why we have to go after all those who deal drugs for profit.

256 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:51:23pm

re: #253 Clubsec

IIRC, Steny Hoyer said that in 94

257 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:51:50pm

Well, I stopped to do my grocery shopping and found the movie bin.
5 dollar movies, Carlito's way was in there, I have never seen it so, gonna go watch.
have a great one lizards.

258 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:51:52pm

re: #242 DEZes

A freind of mine handed me a DVD one day and said watch this.
I looked at the blank cover and asked what is it.
He grinned and said naked girls wrestling, I must be getting old, I was bored in under 3 minutes and turned it off.

Now I'm starting to worry about you.

259 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:51:54pm
260 wrenchwench  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:52:01pm

{calahan---go to sleep!}

261 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:52:11pm

re: #226 researchok

First question: How do we guarantee quality of opportunity?

Since when has quality of opportunity been a part of the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution?

I am guaranteed Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Nowhere am I guaranteed any else. Opportunity is what I make of my life, not what the government gives me.

262 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:52:13pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

Alton was the only one I liked because it wasn't just learning about recipes, but the science of cooking. It's a great show.

I used to love The Galloping Gourmet as a kid. I don't have TV connection, so I haven't got into the cooking shows - I'd probably be hooked. But I LOVE my gorgeous kitchen and I LOVE to cook.

263 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:52:46pm

re: #259 Iron Fist

Paging Emily Litela!

264 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:53:20pm

re: #215 HelloDare

Palate cleanser: Mega Shark vs Giant Octopus trailer


I MUST SEE THIS! I smell Oscar!

265 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:53:21pm

An interesting read via Hot Air.....
Conservatives and 'Atlas Shrugged'

There are plenty of sources to turn to in the resistance against a newly ascendant left-liberalism, from Ludwig von Mises to Milton Friedman to Thomas Sowell. But those authors don't buck up the rightist reader in quite the same way that "Atlas Shrugged" does.

The utilitarian argument for free markets — that they're the most efficient means of determining the value of scarce resources and allocating them — is a far cry from the sanctification of capitalism one finds in Randism.

From whom else besides Ayn Rand, for instance, can one find such a full-throated defense of so-called Big Business, which in a 1962 lecture she dubbed "America's persecuted minority"? Indeed, Miss Rand's writings are catnip for those who seek to deflect any and all blame for the current economic crisis away from the private sector. Like the airtight religious belief system that it essentially is, Randian capitalism can never stumble or fail — it can only be betrayed.
....
Only in a novel can capitalist-individualists such as John Galt, the fugitive embodiment of Miss Rand's ideas and ideals, de-link themselves so dramatically and completely from government and society — "stopping the motor of the world," as she put it in "Atlas Shrugged."

Mired in fantasy, intoxicated by legend, embittered in non-reality: This is no way for an opposition party to act.

At least not one that has any hope of relevance or vitality.

266 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:53:42pm

re: #242 DEZes

A freind of mine handed me a DVD one day and said watch this.
I looked at the blank cover and asked what is it.
He grinned and said naked girls wrestling, I must be getting old, I was bored in under 3 minutes and turned it off.

Would have taken me less than 3 minutes, about 3 seconds actually.


Now, if I were out there wrestling with the girls..... ;)

267 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:53:53pm

re: #245 FurryOldGuyJeans
Well it may be out of the ordinary, but it sure is WET!
Y'all chose to live in the Great Northwet, not me!

268 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:54:00pm

re: #231 LGoPs

I've never understood the wrestling phenomenon. The only time I've ever watched it is when I've accidentally run across it and then gotten mesmerized watching the audience.....not quite believing that people can actually watch that shit. Don't they know it's all fake?

It's fake? Who knew? lol!

/never understood the phenomenon either. Ditto watching poker, golf, bowling, etc.

269 DEZes  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:54:01pm

re: #258 screaming_eagle

Now I'm starting to worry about you.

Well, its not like I could participate. ;)

270 albusteve  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:55:14pm

re: #255 realwest

Hmmm - No, not really - there have been studies made that show the availability of most drugs in prisons (especially the State and larger urban prisons) is just as available to inmates as it is on the outside world.
Imprisoning someone for what is, after all, an illness isn't the right way to go - we've been there and done that without any real noticeable success. That's why I specified in my #230 people who deal drugs for profit. They are sometimes, but I suspect rarely, ever "hooked" on their own product; it's simply something you can start as a business with a relatively small amount of capital and turn a 300% or greater profit. That's why we have to go after all those who deal drugs for profit.

I didn't say imprison somebody for an illness...if criminals are found to be addicts through blood tests then boom...in they go for cleanup...buying, selling and using narcotics is illegal and should be treated with draconian measures....addicts are shit deep in the equation...I'm not saying we go out looking for them, we don't have to...addicts commit a hell of alot of crimes they get busted for

271 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:55:27pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

Q: Who is John Galt?
A: A work of fiction.
/I crack myself up.

272 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:55:52pm

re: #249 doubter4444

I like the Golden Tulip
On business (if there is the $ in the budget), it's usually the Pulitizer, which while a very nice place, is really stuffy, but you can't beat the location.
Love the "brown bars" in the area, love Amsterdam, been there often for a number of years. My only problem is at the end of an evening all those darn streets and canals look the same.
You come out of a bar and don't know which corner to turn on!
That and and having to jump out of the way of some blond girl riding a bike all hell bent for some where.

That is so cool! I love that city..Our Company has an office there so I go once a year for a week..
I'll tell you a funny story..At break time all the guys go out and kick a soccer around...It's a fun break.. I was got the ball..kicked it up and started bouncing and running fun speed at them...Pulled up and mad an imaginary 30 foot 3 pointer and yelled now thats what you do with a round ball! We all laughed like crazy..Took them totally by surprise..
I love it over there...

273 Silvergirl  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:56:02pm

re: #255 realwest

Hmmm - No, not really - there have been studies made that show the availability of most drugs in prisons (especially the State and larger urban prisons) is just as available to inmates as it is on the outside world.
Imprisoning someone for what is, after all, an illness isn't the right way to go - we've been there and done that without any real noticeable success. That's why I specified in my #230 people who deal drugs for profit. They are sometimes, but I suspect rarely, ever "hooked" on their own product; it's simply something you can start as a business with a relatively small amount of capital and turn a 300% or greater profit. That's why we have to go after all those who deal drugs for profit.

If they get hooked, they lose any control of their business fast.

And yes, let's get 'em. Makes no difference if it's called a war or is just apprehending the perps as in any other crime.

274 rightside  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:56:32pm

It was only a matter of time until madam speaker blamed Bush for her criticism of the CIA.

Madam speaker, step down, resign now. You are a disgrace.

275 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:57:07pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

An interesting read via Hot Air.....
Conservatives and 'Atlas Shrugged'

I have had a lot of people try to push that book on me. I've decided not to read it now that I've read A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell. I see the undermining of society in this notion of retreating.

276 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:57:35pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

Alton was the only one I liked because it wasn't just learning about recipes, but the science of cooking. It's a great show.

I don't learn by watching. Don't have the patience. I learn by reading and doing. So I read Escoffier's book.

Also, my Thai maid taught me a LOT, especially how to work with spices.

277 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:57:51pm

re: #265 Killgore Trout

An interesting read via Hot Air.....
Conservatives and 'Atlas Shrugged'

Did AllahP post this? Are they going nuts over there?

278 Lincolntf  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:58:02pm

Amazing that the same group of clowns that wants to excessively tout the dangers of soda, trans-fats and tobacco also want to de-emphasize efforts against cocaine, heroin and meth.
Quite a bunch we've got in Washington these days.

279 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:58:12pm

re: #262 Russkilitlover

I used to love The Galloping Gourmet as a kid. I don't have TV connection, so I haven't got into the cooking shows - I'd probably be hooked. But I LOVE my gorgeous kitchen and I LOVE to cook.

I am not a great cook, I really do love to cook, but so far no one has starved or died from my cooking.

280 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:58:19pm

Glenn Reynolds now linking to Ron Paul's articles.

281 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:58:27pm

re: #274 rightside

It was only a matter of time until madam speaker blamed Bush for her criticism of the CIA.

Madam speaker, step down, resign now. You are a disgrace.

No No No! Let it go on for weeks...This is just delicious...
I can't wait for the next pressy....

282 HelloDare  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:58:47pm

re: #264 SixDegrees

I MUST SEE THIS! I smell Oscar!

If Al Gore can win an Oscar, Giant Octopus can. They even look a little alike.

283 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:59:13pm

re: #277 Sharmuta

Yeah, I'm pretty sure AP posted that one. Hot Air readers, of course, are unconvinced.

284 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 4:59:33pm

re: #278 Lincolntf

Amazing that the same group of clowns that wants to excessively tout the dangers of soda, trans-fats and tobacco also want to de-emphasize efforts against cocaine, heroin and meth.
Quite a bunch we've got in Washington these days.

Ahhh, they just want to TAX the hell out of everything. And the more they make legal the more they can TAX.

285 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:00:13pm

Well y'all we just started to get some ligthning with our thunder and rain, so I'm going off net now!
Hope you all have a grand evening and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

286 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:00:38pm

re: #241 HoosierHoops

Nice..
I can't believe how much rain we got..I have a gallon bucket in the backyard completely full..
Maybe Al Gore should work on getting rain to drought areas..He could work on that for 20 years.

We don't need Gore to get any ideas. The next thing we know he'll be advocating cap and trade on raindrops.

287 zelnaga  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:00:51pm

Presumably this "white house czar" they speak of is the drug czar and if the drug czar is saying the drug war is over, does that mean the drug czar is without a job?

288 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:01:35pm

re: #267 realwest

Well it may be out of the ordinary, but it sure is WET!
Y'all chose to live in the Great Northwet, not me!

Born here, too broke to move some place else, like Texas. ;)

289 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:01:50pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Glenn Reynolds now linking to Ron Paul's articles.

Good gravy!

290 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:02:50pm

re: #284 screaming_eagle

Ahhh, they just want to TAX the hell out of everything. And the more they make legal the more they can TAX.

Taxing legalized drugs, like pot, is one thing I do support.

291 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:04:14pm

re: #289 Sharmuta

Lew Rockwell, Ron Paul, anti-government militias, libertarian arguments against democracy, etc. I really don't think there's much doubt left about where he's going. It gets worse almost every week.

292 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:05:29pm

re: #290 FurryOldGuyJeans

Taxing legalized drugs, like pot, is one thing I do support.

If pot were legalized ,I'd want a heavy tax on it as well. My comment was really aimed at the sin tax idea that now includes things like soda and trans-fat ant etc..

293 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:05:41pm

the gov't machine grumbles along barely running the post office and the dmv. they have botched medicare, medicad, social security.
none of these is run efficiently.
why give the gov't power to actually decide if we live or die?
that is what it will come down to.
let them content themselves w/ selling stamps.

294 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:06:26pm

re: #280 Killgore Trout

Glenn Reynolds now linking to Ron Paul's articles.

The insanity is spreading, fast.

This is becoming very disheartening.

295 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:06:49pm

re: #293 nyc redneck

the gov't machine grumbles along barely running the post office and the dmv. they have botched medicare, medicad, social security.
none of these is run efficiently.
why give the gov't power to actually decide if we live or die?
that is what it will come down to.
let them content themselves w/ selling stamps.

And soon they will only be selling stamps 5 days a week.

296 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:07:25pm

re: #293 nyc redneck

The post office's main problem is the digital revolution. People use the mail less because they can just fire off an email. There are over a million emails sent every day. No stamp required.

297 infopimp  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:08:26pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

The post office's main problem is the digital revolution. People use the mail less because they can just fire off an email. There are over a million emails sent every day. No stamp required.

I'd say thats an underestimate by an order of magnitude, at least... we have thousands of emails a day just for our small firm.

298 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:09:13pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

The post office's main problem is the digital revolution. People use the mail less because they can just fire off an email. There are over a million emails sent every day. No stamp required.

So true.. I used Pine in College..one of the first email programs.
99% of all business is now email. It's a good thing

299 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:09:33pm

Ron Paul sez.....

While I am a proponent of eliminating the Federal Reserve System altogether, I believe that as long as the Federal Reserve exists it should be fully audited.
....
The fact that a single entity, the Federal Reserve, engages in and has a monopoly on monetary policy has detrimental effects on the economy. As long as we try to keep up this fiction, that the Federal Reserve has a long-term focus, that attempting to fix interest rates will not distort the economy, and that the Fed can end a recession by injecting liquidity, we will never free ourselves from the booms and busts of the business cycle.

The necessary first step to restoring economic stability in this country is to audit the Fed, to find out the multitude of sectors in which it has involved itself and, once the audit has been completed, to analyze the results and determine how the Fed should be reined in. Proposals to push the Fed back into the shadows, or to give it an even greater role as a guarantor of systemic stability, are as misguided as they are harmful.


He makes no secret that he's going to try to use this to hassle the Fed endlessly and try to destroy it so we can go back to the gold standard.

300 Throbert McGee  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:09:41pm

Thanks to HelloDere for spin-off linking the trailer to Mega Shark vs. Giant Octopus -- it looks totally RADICAL!

P.S. I hope the octopus wins so that he can return for the obvious sequel Colossal Sperm Whale vs. Giant Octopus, just because I'd enjoy seeing it truncated to "Colossal Sperm [PG-13]" on theater marquees.

P.P.S. But just the fact that the movie exists makes us ALL winners, in a sense.

301 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:09:44pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

The post office's main problem is the digital revolution. People use the mail less because they can just fire off an email. There are over a million emails sent every day. No stamp required.

clearly, they have no excuse to be so inefficient.

302 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:09:51pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

The post office's main problem is the digital revolution. People use the mail less because they can just fire off an email. There are over a million emails sent every day. No stamp required.

I say that's secondary. I bet FedEx and UPS are the bigger problem. Faster more reliable service.

303 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:09:52pm

Afternoon Honcos,

I'm all for a change in drug policy.

And while in principal I tend toward a libertarian view toward letting people do what they want to and with themselves. Drug use seldom affects only the user.

However many people can really use hard core drugs "recreationally" only? I don't know, but I do know that far too many spiral down to where they are a burden on us all.

I can also tell you that as a foster parent every single one of our kids drugs played a major role in the biological parents being unable to care for their own children. As result we all pay again for the effects of drug use.

What is the solution? I'm not sure.

What we have now is not working. Also anything that alow for drug use won't work, since the drugs take over and the drug user's rational decision making gets over ridden by the need for the drugs.

Which brings me to my final thought. Our Liberty presupposes individuals acting in enlightened self interest, enlightened in that while recognizes and individual action my bring me short term benefit in long term it will damage the society I live in, therefore it not in my self interest to do things which adversely impact society in such a way. It is the responsible long term best decision not to engage in activities which incur long term damage to my self interest.

While it may be an attractive idea to allow individuals to engage in certain activities the detrimental effects of some activities precludes society from allow them. Drug use also removes the ability of individuals to make rational, responsible and enlightened longer term decisions.

Since in the case of drug use and individual becomes unable to act in self interest, and it has such a damaging societal effect. The only rational course is to limit drug use as much as possible, and to use societal compulsions, rule of law to do so.

That said, again I'm not sure of the exact form those laws, and that compulsion should take. Just that it is in the best interest of society and the individual to do so.

304 brookly red  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:09:58pm

re: #292 screaming_eagle

If pot were legalized ,I'd want a heavy tax on it as well. My comment was really aimed at the sin tax idea that now includes things like soda and trans-fat ant etc..

how about they just fuck off with this tax thing & just spend less?

305 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:10:16pm

re: #294 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yeah, losing Instapundit has been such a bummer.

306 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:10:32pm

re: #292 screaming_eagle

If pot were legalized ,I'd want a heavy tax on it as well. My comment was really aimed at the sin tax idea that now includes things like soda and trans-fat ant etc..

Tax a little or tax a lot, it is still money into the coffers they are not getting now.

And stopping this ridiculous war on drugs would make legalization a twofer for government budgets, less spending and more taxes.

I wouldn't smoke pot, legal or not, so I almost couldn't care less what the tax rates are.

I used to smoke tobacco and quit when the taxes became prohibitive in my eyes, so putting a low end tax on legal pot might be a good thing.

307 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:11:06pm
308 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:11:21pm

re: #299 Killgore Trout

Do you have a background or degree in economics?

309 Silvergirl  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:11:47pm

Apropos to the thread at hand, Ringo the Gringo has this on the front page.

310 Digital Display  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:11:48pm

re: #307 taxfreekiller

drugs are like the commie shit,

it has never worked
it will never work
it is wrong,
you know its wrong
beer makes people stupid
whiskey is worse
this shit the Mexican drug cartels and the mafia are selling is killing people every day
making drugs legal is wrong in every way, evil in fact

You must have on ordered society or you will end up with no society.

enable bad things you receive bad things

Good evening TFK..Hope today finds you well

311 eon  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:11:54pm

re: #275 Sharmuta

I have had a lot of people try to push that book on me. I've decided not to read it now that I've read A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell. I see the undermining of society in this notion of retreating.

The "strategy" Rand advocated in AS would only be appropriate in a society that had already gone so far down the path to totalitarianism that no recovery was possible short of total societal collapse followed by rebuilding. The trouble is, those most desirous of such a situation would be the very "looters" Rand railed against (Nomad syndrome).

In The Last Centurion by John Ringo, his narrator, Bandit Six, dismisses Rand's book in two sentences. He basically says that her heroes, in "going on strike", fail in their responsibility as members of society to not harm that society. (Also, as a U.S. Army officer, doing what they did would, in his opinion, require him to violate his oath.)

Also, for such a "strategy" to work, the people doing it have to have something of irreplaceable value to the economic life of the nation. Put simply, most people don't, at least not as individuals. Without such a club to hold over the "looters'" heads, their "strategy" is nothing but a meaningless gesture.

BTW, there's supposedly a film in production based on the book right now, starring Angelina Jolie as the heroine, Dagny Taggart. I'm personally going to wait for it to hit DVD. If indeed it ever gets finished at all.

cheers

eon

312 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:12:22pm

re: #278 Lincolntf

Amazing that the same group of clowns that wants to excessively tout the dangers of soda, trans-fats and tobacco also want to de-emphasize efforts against cocaine, heroin and meth.
Quite a bunch we've got in Washington these days.

That rant fits both DC and State. What a harsh on my mellow.

313 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:12:50pm

re: #243 Sharmuta

Quality of opportunity? That's starting to get subjective.

Yup- and therein lies the debate on what is and isn't a good society.

314 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:13:57pm

re: #302 screaming_eagle

I say that's secondary. I bet FedEx and UPS are the bigger problem. Faster more reliable service.

exactly,
and private health care would beat gov't run health care just like
ups and fedex are better than the gov't run post office.

315 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:14:05pm

re: #304 brookly red

how about they just fuck off with this tax thing & just spend less?

Hmmmmm, a 12 step program for politicians and their out of control spending addiction.

316 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:14:05pm

re: #299 Killgore Trout

Also worth noting: The article is printed in Steve Forbes Magazine. He has a few other articles about ending the Federal Reserve system. Steve Forbes also is the head of FreedomWorks who is the national sponsor for the Tea Parties.

317 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:14:43pm

re: #308 rightymouse

No, do you?

318 brookly red  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:15:24pm

re: #315 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hmmmmm, a 12 step program for politicians and their out of control spending addiction.

/step 1, get a rope...

319 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:15:30pm

re: #311 eon

In The Last Centurion by John Ringo, his narrator, Bandit Six, dismisses Rand's book in two sentences. He basically says that her heroes, in "going on strike", fail in their responsibility as members of society to not harm that society.

That's it exactly. People who want to undermine our society, from either the left or the right, scare me.

320 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:15:31pm

re: #304 brookly red

how about they just fuck off with this tax thing & just spend less?

I kinda like that idea.

321 jwing  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:15:49pm

Re: 217 Liberal Classic
This is the right response to this drug policy issue and the possibility of good change : Applaud that it might happen (thus a reduction of government intrusion in individual human life), and skepticism that a totalitarian regime such as Obama/Emanuel will do it right.

Re: 265 Kilgore Trout
What the heck is this guy inserting this in this thread for? It is not relevant. Threads should be on point, otherwise they lose their clarity and just become a worthless pile of detritus.

322 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:16:11pm

re: #304 brookly red

how about they just fuck off with this tax thing & just spend less?

*GASP!*

323 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:16:20pm

re: #302 screaming_eagle

I say that's secondary. I bet FedEx and UPS are the bigger problem. Faster more reliable service.

I know we use courier services a lot at our business for legal documents.

In the regular mail it's mostly magazines and 'throw-out' stuff. What a waste.

324 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:16:45pm

re: #261 FurryOldGuyJeans

Since when has quality of opportunity been a part of the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution?

I am guaranteed Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Nowhere am I guaranteed any else. Opportunity is what I make of my life, not what the government gives me.

So we have no obligation to provide equal opportunity? We don't need to fix inequities in certain neighborhoods or educational institutions? Are quotas acceptable?

325 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:17:21pm

re: #308 rightymouse

Do you have a background or degree in economics?

Does Ron Paul have one?

Having a degree is not a direct indicator of clear economic thinking. Paul Krugman has one and what he proposes is sheer lunacy.

326 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:18:24pm

re: #324 researchok

So we have no obligation to provide equal opportunity? We don't need to fix inequities in certain neighborhoods or educational institutions? Are quotas acceptable?

But you didn't ask about guaranteeing the equality of opportunity, but the quality of it.

327 brookly red  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:19:35pm

re: #322 Sharmuta

*GASP!*

I'm sorry...

how about they spend less & tax less?

328 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:20:05pm

re: #274 rightside

It was only a matter of time until madam speaker blamed Bush for her criticism of the CIA.

Madam speaker, step down, resign now. You are a disgrace.

She's in a hole so deep she'd have to climb up to step down.
Bitch.

329 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:21:10pm

re: #324 researchok

So we have no obligation to provide equal opportunity? We don't need to fix inequities in certain neighborhoods or educational institutions? Are quotas acceptable?

Not if that means government intervention beyond the extreme local level, and even that is unpalatable. The less government interferes the easier it is for individuals to achieve what they can.

I refuse to provide a fish for everyone, period.

330 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:21:33pm

re: #317 Killgore Trout

No, do you?


My husband does.

If economics is not one's strength, I'd be cautious in criticism. But that's just me.

331 WindHorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:21:43pm

re: #327 brookly red

I liked the first one better.....

332 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:23:03pm

re: #324 researchok

So we have no obligation to provide equal opportunity? We don't need to fix inequities in certain neighborhoods or educational institutions? Are quotas acceptable?

What is the root of the inequities in certain neighborhoods?
What is a valid fix to these inequities?

First off look at school spending per student and results. The places with the highest spending have the worst results.

Many of the current inequities are the result of the last 40 years of trying to fix inequities.

333 avspatti  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:23:07pm

re: #201 LGoPs

One element - crucial in my mind - that private charity adds to the equation is a sense of gratitude from the recipient. And I think along with that would come a not unhealthy motivation to do something to keep from having to ask for more help.
When the help comes from the government, the element of gratitude disappears and is replaced by a sense of entitlement which leads to more demands and a concurrent lessening of the motivation to get off the dole.

This is an interesting discussion. I will give you an answer from a professor of mine (liberal, of course . . . is there any other kind?) She was adamant that private charity was far less desirable than government aid. She insisted that private charity was demeaning to the person receiving it, but government assistance was empowering. I have NEVER been able to figure out how she came to that conclusion. She was far, far left, but still. It seems so illogical to me. How can sitting in a government office (think Motor Vehicle Office) be anything but demeaning?

334 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:23:38pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

But you didn't ask about guaranteeing the equality of opportunity, but the quality of it.

Fair enough- I hate the notion of insisting on equal outcome. That, more than anything else, has proved to be out greatest cultural disaster.

335 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:23:53pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

But you didn't ask about guaranteeing the equality of opportunity, but the quality of it.

And who determines what is the quality of opportunity? Why can't the individual be left to do that?

Government mandates the equality and quality of mediocrity, not success.

So much to agree with you about, Sharm. Blue is right. :)

336 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:24:12pm

re: #282 HelloDare

If Al Gore can win an Oscar, Giant Octopus can. They even look a little alike.

I wouldn't let Gore hear about this. I detected a plot device involving these beasts being thawed out of an icy prison - caused, no doubt, by global warming. Al would be insufferable and start marketing this as a documentary.

337 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:24:41pm

Children in this country have an equal opportunity to an education. They don't have a guarantee to an elite prep-school education. While there is certainly enough money in this country to provide better education than what we are currently turning out, it doesn't mean the gap is an open invitation to equalize everything in the name of fairness. Life is unfair.

If you think your kid deserves an elite prep-school education, then provide that for your child. It's not my responsibility.

338 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:25:32pm

re: #334 researchok

Fair enough- I hate the notion of insisting on equal outcome. That, more than anything else, has proved to be out greatest cultural disaster.

Yet you seem to be not wanting to restore the individual as the source and wellspring for charity and compassion.

339 avspatti  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:25:42pm

re: #19 EmmmieG

Fox news or Vincente Fox?

Neither. Zorro!

340 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:26:19pm

re: #334 researchok

Fair enough- I hate the notion of insisting on equal outcome. That, more than anything else, has proved to be out greatest cultural disaster.

We give you an opportunity- what you do with it is up to you.

341 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:27:28pm

re: #325 FurryOldGuyJeans

Does Ron Paul have one?

Having a degree is not a direct indicator of clear economic thinking. Paul Krugman has one and what he proposes is sheer lunacy.


No. But he was apparently influenced by the same person who was my husband's professor, Hans Zenholz, at Grove City.

Very different than whatever Krugman learned.

342 brookly red  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:27:31pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

But you didn't ask about guaranteeing the equality of opportunity, but the quality of it.

Anyone, yup, freakin anyone can grow up to be the president... there is your equal oppertunity.

343 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:27:35pm

re: #332 jcm

What is the root of the inequities in certain neighborhoods?
What is a valid fix to these inequities?

First off look at school spending per student and results. The places with the highest spending have the worst results.

Many of the current inequities are the result of the last 40 years of trying to fix inequities.


Most often, there is no single 'root cause'.

Poverty, crime, discrimination, etc, are all very real causes of inequity.

Again, I am by no means for big govt. I just believe that govt has a role to play in the values of a nation/society. We have National Parks, we have Highway Authorities, and we laws against slavery and organ sales, etc. Govt is a necessary reality.

344 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:28:04pm

re: #338 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet you seem to be not wanting to restore the individual as the source and wellspring for charity and compassion.

Altruism can be great- in the hands of individuals. When it's wielded by government- not so much.

345 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:28:14pm

re: #340 Sharmuta

We give you an opportunity- what you do with it is up to you.

I certainly know I am down and struggling due to my own screw-ups in life, not because government didn't give me enough.

346 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:28:39pm

re: #321 jwing


Re: 265 Kilgore Trout
What the heck is this guy inserting this in this thread for? It is not relevant. Threads should be on point, otherwise they lose their clarity and just become a worthless pile of detritus.

Threads around here tend to follow more of a cocktail party model than seminar model. A good thing, too, or I might not have heard about Megashark versus Giant Octopus until after it's release.

347 WindHorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:29:18pm

goodbye nancygirl.

348 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:29:21pm

re: #343 researchok

Most often, there is no single 'root cause'.

Poverty, crime, discrimination, etc, are all very real causes of inequity.

Again, I am by no means for big govt. I just believe that govt has a role to play in the values of a nation/society. We have National Parks, we have Highway Authorities, and we laws against slavery and organ sales, etc. Govt is a necessary reality.

Yes- government has a role, but the Law should reflect our Values, not the other way around.

349 alegrias  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:29:41pm

This is great news.

I'm going to feel safer walking through the open air drug market a block from my house! It's run by the public housing ward heelers with "Kerry-Edwards" and "Obama-Biden" bumper stickers on their doors, and abetted by police who live in the projects of Alexandria, Virginia.

We're 5 miles from Washington, DC which as you know is a gun-free zone with the highest number of firearm deaths per capita, fueled by the drug trade no doubt.

350 ihateronpaul  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:29:51pm

This is great. We need to move away from being a police state.

351 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:30:42pm

re: #343 researchok

Most often, there is no single 'root cause'.

Poverty, crime, discrimination, etc, are all very real causes of inequity.

Again, I am by no means for big govt. I just believe that govt has a role to play in the values of a nation/society. We have National Parks, we have Highway Authorities, and we laws against slavery and organ sales, etc. Govt is a necessary reality.

Yes, necessary for doing the things individuals can't do, such as providing national defense.

Being compassionate or not should be an individual choice, not a governmental fiat forced on everyone.

352 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:30:48pm

re: #338 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet you seem to be not wanting to restore the individual as the source and wellspring for charity and compassion.

Just the opposite! I believe that part of the problem we have today is because govt has removed us from the process and being involved with our neighbors.

My issue is that no matter what, we can't do it all. We are bound as a nation because I care about a sick kid in California- and I'm willing to pay taxes so medica re can help him if his parents cannot

353 brookly red  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:31:07pm

re: #345 FurryOldGuyJeans

I certainly know I am down and struggling due to my own screw-ups in life, not because government didn't give me enough.

funny that, I am down cause they took too freakin much...

354 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:31:07pm

re: #349 alegrias

This is great news.

I'm going to feel safer walking through the open air drug market a block from my house! It's run by the public housing ward heelers with "Kerry-Edwards" and "Obama-Biden" bumper stickers on their doors, and abetted by police who live in the projects of Alexandria, Virginia.

We're 5 miles from Washington, DC which as you know is a gun-free zone with the highest number of firearm deaths per capita, fueled by the drug trade no doubt.

Ah-yep. That gun prohibition is really working out. Funny how prohibiting stuff usually doesn't work, huh?

355 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:31:30pm

re: #351 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes, necessary for doing the things individuals can't do, such as providing national defense.

Being compassionate or not should be an individual choice, not a governmental fiat forced on everyone.

So exploitation is acceptable?

356 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:31:49pm

re: #349 alegrias

This is great news.

I'm going to feel safer walking through the open air drug market a block from my house! It's run by the public housing ward heelers with "Kerry-Edwards" and "Obama-Biden" bumper stickers on their doors, and abetted by police who live in the projects of Alexandria, Virginia.

We're 5 miles from Washington, DC which as you know is a gun-free zone with the highest number of firearm deaths per capita, fueled by the drug trade no doubt.

Good or bad news, things could hardly get any worse than they currently are.

357 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:32:27pm

re: #340 Sharmuta

We give you an opportunity- what you do with it is up to you.

People have a choice.

Sit on the couch, eat junk and watch American Idol and wait for gubermint to help them and change the world for them.

Or.

Work their asses off, go to night school. And after 40 years find themselves rich.

At which point gubermint comes along says that's unfair, takes it for the second person gives it to the first.

The first person says Hallelujah! Hope and Change!

/cynic

358 SixDegrees  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:32:32pm

re: #349 alegrias

This is great news.

I'm going to feel safer walking through the open air drug market a block from my house! It's run by the public housing ward heelers with "Kerry-Edwards" and "Obama-Biden" bumper stickers on their doors, and abetted by police who live in the projects of Alexandria, Virginia.

We're 5 miles from Washington, DC which as you know is a gun-free zone with the highest number of firearm deaths per capita, fueled by the drug trade no doubt.

Last I heard, the whole "gun free" nonsense got tossed out by the Supremes. Did DC attempt to slide something else in to take it's place?

359 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:32:37pm

re: #352 researchok

Just the opposite! I believe that part of the problem we have today is because govt has removed us from the process and being involved with our neighbors.

My issue is that no matter what, we can't do it all. We are bound as a nation because I care about a sick kid in California- and I'm willing to pay taxes so medica re can help him if his parents cannot

But the government's involvement is taking a cut out of that money. The money to help that child would be better going from you directly to the health care provider.

360 alegrias  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:33:49pm

re: #337 Sharmuta

Children in this country have an equal opportunity to an education. They don't have a guarantee to an elite prep-school education. While there is certainly enough money in this country to provide better education than what we are currently turning out, it doesn't mean the gap is an open invitation to equalize everything in the name of fairness. Life is unfair.

If you think your kid deserves an elite prep-school education, then provide that for your child. It's not my responsibility.

* * * *
In DC the crappy public schools spend $15,000 per child and they're the 49th worst or 50th worst in the nation.

Charter Schools in DC spend $7,500 per child and top the charts in reading, writing and arithmetic.

Both are YOUR tax dollars, only the union-controlled public schools waste the entire amount of your contribution to "the children".

361 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:34:11pm

re: #343 researchok

Most often, there is no single 'root cause'.

Poverty, crime, discrimination, etc, are all very real causes of inequity.

Again, I am by no means for big govt. I just believe that govt has a role to play in the values of a nation/society. We have National Parks, we have Highway Authorities, and we laws against slavery and organ sales, etc. Govt is a necessary reality.

If everyone faces challenges is there then a need to fix the challenges for everyone? Or is that part of opportunity, overcoming challenges?

362 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:34:16pm

re: #355 researchok

So exploitation is acceptable?

Who is being exploited?

363 Tats66  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:35:15pm

will we at least have a "verbal altercation" with drugs?

364 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:35:27pm

re: #355 researchok

So exploitation is acceptable?

You always want to take the extreme view. I'm done here.

365 itellu3times  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:35:29pm

re: #311 eon

In The Last Centurion by John Ringo, his narrator, Bandit Six, dismisses Rand's book in two sentences. He basically says that her heroes, in "going on strike", fail in their responsibility as members of society to not harm that society.

They "fail" in pretending that the individual does not depend on society just as much as society depends on the individual.

Try a "Swiss Family Robinson" with modern technology, shipwreck a family on a desert island, and see how long before they build an iPod from sand and coconuts.

AS is a myth and a parable, take it literally and you're nutz.

366 brookly red  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:36:46pm

re: #362 Sharmuta

Who is being exploited?

///the workers of the world, don't you get it?

367 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:37:23pm

re: #333 avspatti

This is an interesting discussion. I will give you an answer from a professor of mine (liberal, of course . . . is there any other kind?) She was adamant that private charity was far less desirable than government aid. She insisted that private charity was demeaning to the person receiving it, but government assistance was empowering. I have NEVER been able to figure out how she came to that conclusion. She was far, far left, but still. It seems so illogical to me. How can sitting in a government office (think Motor Vehicle Office) be anything but demeaning?

Your professor has the answer exactly wrong. Which is probably why she's a professor...but that gets into my theory of people that can be so educated that they're stupid........
I've said before that liberalism is a mental disorder. Not in the clinical sense that they need to be institutionaized but in the sense that they process information, the same way conservatives do, and come up with exactly the wrong answer. They then compound the disorder by suffering from instant amnesia, making them incapable of learning from or even acknowledging past mistakes.
I think her thinking ties in with the liberal ideas about eliminating shame which when you think of it is a powerful societal guardrail that used to make a lot of people control their own behavior. Shame as a concept was systematically eliminated in the 60's and 70's - to society's detriment.
I stand by my original premise which is that when one accepts help from a private individual or entity, certain healthy mechanisms are put in place, which are absent when the nameless, faceless government doels it out.

368 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:37:40pm

re: #365 itellu3times

They "fail" in pretending that the individual does not depend on society just as much as society depends on the individual.

Try a "Swiss Family Robinson" with modern technology, shipwreck a family on a desert island, and see how long before they build an iPod from sand and coconuts.

AS is a myth and a parable, take it literally and you're nutz.

What you talkin' 'about? The Professor made batteries from sea water and coconuts! ;)

369 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:37:48pm

re: #362 Sharmuta

Who is being exploited?

One sec, reading Obama's last speech to find the new answer.

370 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:38:33pm

re: #368 FurryOldGuyJeans

What you talkin' 'about? The Professor made batteries from sea water and coconuts! ;)

What even more amazing he had time to do that with Mary Ann and Ginger hangin' around......

371 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:38:38pm

re: #359 Sharmuta

But the government's involvement is taking a cut out of that money. The money to help that child would be better going from you directly to the health care provider.

Do me a favor already- run for office. We can use you and clear thinking.

Seriously, you hit the nail on the head- people in govt don't spend as if the money were theirs. If civil servants understood that a govt job is not a reward and permanent meal ticket, but rather a responsibility, things would look very different.

372 eon  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:39:00pm

re: #323 rightymouse

I know we use courier services a lot at our business for legal documents.

In the regular mail it's mostly magazines and 'throw-out' stuff. What a waste.

The only things I get in the mail that are actually relevant are;

1. Utility bills- both the city utility department and the local electric company want me (and everyone) to pay their bills online. I thought about it, then found that the city utility department could automatically garnish my checking account for whatever amount they wanted to up to the full balance plus "fees" every month if I did it that way. No thanks- I'm on a pension.

2. Catalogs- mainly from booksellers. My favorite, Edward R. Hamilton, will let you order online, but there's a surcharge due to it being a credit-card transaction. No thanks, again- I'll stick to filling out the order form and sticking it, and a check, in an envelope with a stamp.

3. Magazines- fewer and fewer as I go along. Popular Mechanics, Popular Science, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Road & Track are about it. I stopped reading news magazines years ago, and am no longer a member of any group with a monthly magazine. I even stopped reading Maxim, when it began to look too much like a cross between GQ and Forbes- with a lower page count at a higher price. If I'm interested in any such magazines today, most of them have websites, and most articles, etc., are free after a couple of months go by. I'm not in that big a hurry to read them.

The USPS is going to end up mainly as a purveyor of "notifications" from your government about what it intends to do to for you next. (At your expense, of course.) As for dropping Saturday delivery, that has already engendered animosity from city-owned utilities, who like to send "cutoff warnings" (the infamous yellow bills) out so they arrive on Saturday, to frighten low-income customers into a mad dash-with-cash to the utility office as soon as the banks open on Monday morning. Giving them an extra day to think about it, the utilities fear, might result (at least here in OH) in more complaints filed with the State AG's Consumer Protection Office than sudden infusions of cash in the city's coffers. (The curiously-named Public Utilities Commission of Ohio, PUCO, has no authority over "publicly-owned" utilities- just privately-owned utility companies. Here in the Buckeye State, any dispute a customer has with a city-owned utility usually ends up at the State AG's office. Yes, it's stupid.)

My response to the utilities... would probably get me banned. I dislike government officials who abuse the public, on purely professional grounds.

As to their being "inconvenienced" by the ending of Saturday deliveries, my heart does not bleed for them.

cheers

eon

373 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:39:08pm

re: #371 researchok

That's sweet- but I'm not electable.

374 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:39:19pm

re: #369 screaming_eagle

One sec, reading Obama's last speech to find the new answer.

Ummm, he's the EXPLOITER, not the exploited.

Unless you mean constantly being fawned upon by his worshipers, then yeah, he's exploited. ;)

375 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:39:21pm

re: #330 rightymouse

My husband does.

If economics is not one's strength, I'd be cautious in criticism. But that's just me.

Paulian economics is quackery. Pure and simple. I know many Republicans are hell bent on becoming useful idiots for Ron Paul.. There's nothing I can do about it.

376 alegrias  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:39:35pm

re: #358 SixDegrees

Last I heard, the whole "gun free" nonsense got tossed out by the Supremes. Did DC attempt to slide something else in to take it's place?

* * * *
Don't know, but criminals don't care what the courts say! They've been using weapons in DC forever.

DC public school children go through metal detectors in the really crappy neighborhoods that post "Gun-free School Zone" signs. It's such a joke, but then crack head Marion Barry was mayor for life. Nice example "for the children".

377 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:40:21pm

re: #362 Sharmuta

Before regulation, children, women and many, many of the poor were exploited. I recall seeing pictures of child coal miners- heartbreaking.

378 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:40:37pm

re: #370 jcm

What even more amazing he had time to do that with Mary Ann and Ginger hangin' around......

3 years, at least, on that deserted island and still only 7 castaways.

They were not human, I tells ya! ;)

379 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:40:42pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Paulian economics is quackery. Pure and simple. I know many Republicans are hell bent on becoming useful idiots for Ron Paul.. There's nothing I can do about it.

And many are not.

380 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:41:15pm

re: #373 Sharmuta

That's sweet- but I'm not electable.

I can relate- expat Brit here.

381 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:41:45pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Paulian economics is quackery. Pure and simple. I know many Republicans are hell bent on becoming useful idiots for Ron Paul.. There's nothing I can do about it.

Beyond telling them what you know to be the case, it is best to let them have the freedom to join the kookery.

382 brookly red  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:42:45pm

re: #376 alegrias

* * * *
Don't know, but criminals don't care what the courts say! They've been using weapons in DC forever.

DC public school children go through metal detectors in the really crappy neighborhoods that post "Gun-free School Zone" signs. It's such a joke, but then crack head Marion Barry was mayor for life. Nice example "for the children".

and once inside they are taught that the signs & not the metal detectors are their protectors...

383 WindHorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:42:50pm

.....next thing you know, Obama will want to nationalize the postal service as a way to "improve" performance etc.......

/oh yeah, wait a second.....

384 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:43:11pm

re: #378 FurryOldGuyJeans

3 years, at least, on that deserted island and still only 7 castaways.

They were not human, I tells ya! ;)

Can you imagine how outraged the Church Lady would have been with a bouncing baby professor at he beginning of the second season!

385 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:44:51pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Paulian economics is quackery. Pure and simple. I know many Republicans are hell bent on becoming useful idiots for Ron Paul.. There's nothing I can do about it.

What economic solution/philosophy is not considered quackery by you?

386 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:44:53pm

re: #374 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ummm, he's the EXPLOITER, not the exploited.

Unless you mean constantly being fawned upon by his worshipers, then yeah, he's exploited. ;)

Every speech he gives there is a new class of the exploited and a new exploiter and a new goverment plan to fix it all.New exploits even pop up inbetween speeches.

387 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:46:37pm

re: #386 screaming_eagle

Every speech he gives there is a new class of the exploited and a new exploiter and a new goverment plan to fix it all.New exploits even pop up inbetween speeches.

Community Organizing 101, tell someone they are being exploited.

388 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:47:27pm

re: #350 ihateronpaul

This is great. We need to move away from being a police state.

Not sure where you live, but it sure does not feel anything like a police state where I live.

389 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:48:07pm

re: #386 screaming_eagle

Every speech he gives there is a new class of the exploited and a new exploiter and a new goverment plan to fix it all.New exploits even pop up inbetween speeches.

Obama is a professional agitator. And he's succeeding cause he sure has me stirred up.

390 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:48:15pm

re: #377 researchok

Before regulation, children, women and many, many of the poor were exploited. I recall seeing pictures of child coal miners- heartbreaking.

Society evolves- so that now we don't think exploiting children for their labor is acceptable. We send them to school now.

As for the rest of your point- that is quite debatable. It depends on what you consider to be exploitation. Joe Camel was considered to be exploiting children to get them to smoke, but how is he different than Ronald McDonald trying to get kids to eat junk food? At some point, personal responsibility has to take a role. And that includes allowing others to make bad decisions.

391 eon  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:49:26pm

re: #365 itellu3times

They "fail" in pretending that the individual does not depend on society just as much as society depends on the individual.

Try a "Swiss Family Robinson" with modern technology, shipwreck a family on a desert island, and see how long before they build an iPod from sand and coconuts.

AS is a myth and a parable, take it literally and you're nutz.

Never mind that- I calculate they'd last about five days total, unless they were rescued, Lost be d***ed.

If I were stranded ala' the S.S. Minnow ("Gilligaann!"), an iPod would only be on my "things-to-do" list if it could be used to call for help.

I'm not a romantic, I have never watched Lost, and I consider the various incarnations of Survivor as both insults to my intelligence and evidence of the decline of the Republic, as Heinlein would say.

Having read both SFR and Verne's Mysterious Island in grade school, I consider both of them to be good arguments for modern civilization. And for staying well away from uncharted seas.

/Which was what Verne intended- I'm not so sure about Wyss on that count.

cheers

eon

392 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:49:32pm

re: #375 Killgore Trout

Paulian economics is quackery. Pure and simple. I know many Republicans are hell bent on becoming useful idiots for Ron Paul.. There's nothing I can do about it.

Mockery. You do a great job of mocking them. Do not underestimate the power of mockery.

393 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:49:52pm

re: #389 LGoPs

Obama is a professional agitator. And he's succeeding cause he sure has me stirred up.

3.75 years to go. Buy stock in Budweiser.

394 Jamfish  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:50:12pm

re: #25 Tumulus11

'Mr. Kerlikowske was most recently the police chief in Seattle, a city known for experimenting with drug programs. [...]
Mr. Kerlikowske said he opposed the city's 2003 initiative on police priorities. His officers, however, say drug enforcement -- especially for pot crimes -- took a back seat, according to Sgt. Richard O'Neill, president of the Seattle Police Officers Guild. One result was an open-air drug market in the downtown business district, Mr. O'Neill said.
'The average rank-and-file officer is saying, 'He can't control two blocks of Seattle, how is he going to control the nation?' ' Mr. O'Neill
said.'

. Uh-oh.

Most of us up here in Seattle agree; he has not been a good a police chief. Career standouts include:
*The riots that erupted on Mardi Gras in 2001 literally on his watch.
*Taking such care of his personal firearm that it was stolen out of his unlocked, unmarked police cruiser.
*His advocacy of bans on semi-automatic rifles and for requiring background checks on private sales at gun shows, and his belief that gun dealers should be left open to lawsuits.

The list goes on from there.

395 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:51:34pm

re: #388 Racer X

Not sure where you live, but it sure does not feel anything like a police state where I live.

I think he's in a prison in his imagination.........

396 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:54:33pm

re: #274 rightside

It was only a matter of time until madam speaker blamed Bush for her criticism of the CIA.

Madam speaker, step down, resign now. You are a disgrace.

Botox induced brain damage...............(not OT at all)

397 eon  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:55:18pm

re: #394 Jamfish

Most of us up here in Seattle agree; he has not been a good a police chief. Career standouts include:
*The riots that erupted on Mardi Gras in 2001 literally on his watch.
*Taking such care of his personal firearm that it was stolen out of his unlocked, unmarked police cruiser.
*His advocacy of bans on semi-automatic rifles and for requiring background checks on private sales at gun shows, and his belief that gun dealers should be left open to lawsuits.

The list goes on from there.

Just once, I'd like to see the innocent victim of a criminal's murderous, armed assault sue the criminal. Just to see what would happen.

/I can picture heads exploding all over Berkeley, for one thing.

cheers

eon

398 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:55:28pm

re: #394 Jamfish

Most of us up here in Seattle agree; he has not been a good a police chief. Career standouts include:
*The riots that erupted on Mardi Gras in 2001 literally on his watch.
*Taking such care of his personal firearm that it was stolen out of his unlocked, unmarked police cruiser.
*His advocacy of bans on semi-automatic rifles and for requiring background checks on private sales at gun shows, and his belief that gun dealers should be left open to lawsuits.

The list goes on from there.

Girlikowski is a idiot, the Mardi Gras riots the orders where for Seattle PD to stay out of the crowd and so as not to provoke anything.

Christopher Kime was beaten to death in that crowd while cops watched on Girlikowski's orders. Kime's friends had to carry him out to Cops and Medics.

Girlikowski got his ass handed to him over the gun show loop hole, a state legislature asked the State AG and Girlikowski to provide one example of a crime committed with a gun show gun. Results they could not find a single instance.

Seattle's well rid of that ijit, I'm just sorry he's being inflicted on the whole country now.

399 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:56:56pm

re: #392 Racer X

Mockery. You do a great job of mocking them. Do not underestimate the power of mockery.

Mockery can be foolish if one does not truly understand what one is making fun of.

400 ihateronpaul  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:57:00pm

re: #388 Racer X

where I live, having a pound of a natural plant is a felony. what idiocy.

401 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:57:54pm

re: #400 ihateronpaul

where I live, having a pound of a natural plant is a felony. what idiocy.

Opium?

402 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 5:59:59pm

Proof that the US is getting stupider.

It only took us 13 years to realize that Prohibition was a bust.

403 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:01:04pm
404 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:02:12pm

re: #380 researchok

I can relate- expat Brit here.

And there's why we're seeing things differently. Europeans have a vastly different view on the role of government than Americans. If you're up for understanding why that is, I recommend A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell.

405 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:03:34pm

re: #397 eon

Just once, I'd like to see the innocent victim of a criminal's murderous, armed assault sue the criminal. Just to see what would happen.blockquote>

It's been done (albeit by survivors in a non-gun case).

406 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:03:34pm

re: #404 Sharmuta

And there's why we're seeing things differently. Europeans have a vastly different view on the role of government than Americans. If you're up for understanding why that is, I recommend A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell.

Off to ABE Books.

TY for heads up.

407 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:04:15pm

re: #403 mikalm

Killgore, I think you'll be interested in this article.

That's utter rot.
But he'll be fascinated. I'm sure.

408 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:04:37pm

re: #380 researchok

I can relate- expat Brit here.

Ah, now I see why you dredge up so many leftoid talking points about the role of government.

409 rightymouse  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:06:57pm

Couchular time.

Killgore - you can tell me later which economic solution/philosophy is not quackery to you. Just please don't leave it on a dead thread. Kay? Thanky.

410 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:07:01pm

re: #403 mikalm

Thanks. Interesting.

411 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:07:06pm

re: #408 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, now I see why you dredge up so many leftoid talking points about the role of government.

That is unfair!

My points are not leftoid at all- and even if they were, a simple dismissal is not an argument.

Onwards. Are you proposing we get rid of medicaid, social security, student loan programs, etc?

412 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:08:09pm

"American Conservative" is Pat Buchanan's magazine, by the way.

413 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:09:26pm

re: #409 rightymouse

I'm interested in ideas that either have worked before or can be tweaked to work in the future. I'm not interested in going back to the gold standard, the "fair tax" or any of Ron Paul's other ideas.

414 jcm  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:09:27pm

re: #411 researchok

That is unfair!

My points are not leftoid at all- and even if they were, a simple dismissal is not an argument.

Onwards. Are you proposing we get rid of medicaid, social security, student loan programs, etc?

Love to.

I would have a lot more money for all of them.

I put my self through college.
I'll find away to obtain medical insurance.
I'd have a lot more in my retirement account if I got to keep my SSN with holdings.

415 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:10:31pm

re: #412 Charles

"American Conservative" is Pat Buchanan's magazine, by the way.

I knew that. Gah!

He hijacks the term "conservative", just like the Arabist Grover Norquist.

416 Silvergirl  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:10:35pm

re: #408 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, now I see why you dredge up so many leftoid talking points about the role of government.

Now that is lumping one individual in with an entire country.

417 LGoPs  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:10:45pm

re: #412 Charles

"American Conservative" is Pat Buchanan's magazine, by the way.

That's what I was trying to figure out and finally saw it. Not for me, thanks.

418 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:11:23pm

re: #412 Charles

Maybe, but the points the author raises are valid. Even a thug like Buchanan can occasionally put something good into the debate, albeit indirectly.

419 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:11:24pm

Today, I heard a radio ad for NewsMax. Ugh.

420 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:12:09pm

re: #418 mikalm

Maybe, but the points the author raises are valid. Even a thug like Buchanan can occasionally put something good into the debate, albeit indirectly.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally.

421 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:12:35pm

re: #412 Charles

Ah, thanks for the heads up. The author Robert Locke

In the January 21st, 2003, issue of Manhattan weekly NY Press, FrontPage Magazine editor David Horowitz publicly disassociated himself from Locke, stating that certain published e-mails written by Locke as a representative of his publication held views that "do not reflect mine in any way, shape or fashion." Locke wrote two articles for The American Conservative, a paleoconservative magazine for which Scott McConnell is one of the three editors. McConnell dismissed Locke after reading that Locke wrote on VDARE.com an article calling for the expulsion of the Palestinians from all of Israel.

Jeez, I feel like I have to do 20 minutes of research before I spend 10 minutes reading anything these days.

422 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:13:19pm

re: #411 researchok

That is unfair!

My points are not leftoid at all- and even if they were, a simple dismissal is not an argument.

Onwards. Are you proposing we get rid of medicaid, social security, student loan programs, etc?

I hear so much of what you espoused as being standard talking points from Liberals here in the Seattle area and other bastions.

And as I said the first time, YES 100% absolutely remove governmental intervention. Read the book Sharm suggested to you, then let's have a discussion.

423 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:14:56pm

re: #421 Killgore Trout

Ah, thanks for the heads up. The author Robert Locke

Jeez, I feel like I have to do 20 minutes of research before I spend 10 minutes reading anything these days.

You said it. I trust very little of what I read these days unless I can verify it with another source.

424 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:18:12pm

re: #423 Charles

You said it. I trust very little of what I read these days unless I can verify it with another source.

That's called becoming a journalist.

425 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:19:05pm

re: #422 FurryOldGuyJeans

I hear so much of what you espoused as being standard talking points from Liberals here in the Seattle area and other bastions.

And as I said the first time, YES 100% absolutely remove governmental intervention. Read the book Sharm suggested to you, then let's have a discussion.

You are a true libertarian.

For better or worse, I'm a committed small 'r' republican.

I believe govt has a role to play in society that extends beyond national defense.

426 WindHorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:19:29pm

re: #424 Ward Cleaver

I think you are dating yourself bro'..... :)

427 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:20:22pm

re: #424 Ward Cleaver

That's called becoming a journalist.

No, verifying facts is what being a reporter used to do. A journalist is vomiting opinion as fact.

428 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:22:12pm

re: #425 researchok

You are a true libertarian.

For better or worse, I'm a committed small 'r' republican.

I believe govt has a role to play in society that extends beyond national defense.

I am an Independent, nothing more, nothing less.

Well, concerned and committed voter is also me, but that is a whole different discussion.

429 researchok  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:26:19pm

re: #428 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am an Independent, nothing more, nothing less.

Well, concerned and committed voter is also me, but that is a whole different discussion.

I just can't see doing away with medicare, social security, state colleges, National Parks, FDA, etc,

They may be flawed, but they are necessary IMO.

430 Ward Cleaver  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:29:06pm

re: #427 FurryOldGuyJeans

No, verifying facts is what being a reporter used to do. A journalist is vomiting opinion as fact.

Well, I meant a real journalist. These days, they're partisan hacks.

431 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:31:08pm

re: #421 Killgore Trout

Ah, thanks for the heads up. The author Robert Locke

Jeez, I feel like I have to do 20 minutes of research before I spend 10 minutes reading anything these days.

You know it's bad when even Horowitz has to back away from you.

432 SecondComing  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:34:24pm

Obama reminds me of the Ben Folds Five song Ascent of Stan.
Stan was a hippie and now he's the man that he always fought against.
Same as Obama.

Ascent of Stan

Pangs of silence
From the room upstairs
How's the view there
Do you read what they're sayin' about you
That you're no fun
Since the war was won
In fact you have become
All of the things you've always run from

The ascent of Stan
Textbook hippie man
Get rest while you can

So where'd the years go
All the time we had
Being poor was not such a drag in hindsight
And you wonder why your father was so resigned
Now you don't wonder anymore

The ascent of Stan
Textbook hippie man
Textbook hippie man
Get rest while you can

Stan, once you wanted revolution
Stan, now you're the institution
Stan, how's it feel to be the man
It hurts to be the man, It's no fun to be the man

La~ dada, la dada dada, la dada
La dadada dadada da~
And now watch it all go down

The ascent of Stan
Textbook hippie man
Stan
Textbook hippie man
Get rest while you can

Stan, once you wanted revolution
Stan, now you're the institution
Stan, how's it feel to be the man
It hurts to be the man, It's no fun to be the man

433 miclaine  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:40:10pm

It's truly about time.
This has been a losing battle.
Addicted? We will help you not jail you.
Want stuff - buy it (like liquor) and tax the heck out of it.
No more nasty drug kingpins, no more drug territorial wars, no more money to unsavory types.
Instead money to the unsavory government!

434 jwing  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:41:28pm

re: #346 SixDegrees

Oops, thanks, I didn't realize I'd entered the cocktail zone. I guess then, that pretty much anything goes under any topic.

435 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:49:20pm

re: #346 SixDegrees

Threads around here tend to follow more of a cocktail party model than seminar model. A good thing, too, or I might not have heard about Megashark versus Giant Octopus until after it's release.

Amen. Reminds me of the old saying, "This movie wasn't released...it escaped."

436 _RememberTonyC  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:54:37pm

Think of the tax revenue that could be generated by legalized weed. A pack of 20 blunts can sell for 40 bucks. $15 for the producer and $25 in taxes to the govt.

437 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:57:48pm
438 _RememberTonyC  Fri, May 15, 2009 6:59:16pm

re: #437 taxfreekiller

$5,000.00 per week for rehab.

"The tried to make me go to rehab and I said no no no"

~Amy Winehouse

439 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:04:31pm

re: #437 taxfreekiller

$5,000.00 per week for rehab.

Psssshhhh.

Rehab is for quitters.

440 Syrah  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:10:32pm

re: #436 _RememberTonyC

Think of the tax revenue that could be generated by legalized weed. A pack of 20 blunts can sell for 40 bucks. $15 for the producer and $25 in taxes to the govt.

I don't want the government to have the money to grow even larger than it already has been allowed.

One of the downsides of "taxing" it is that it will put pressure on the Government to arrange for a tight hand on the growing and distribution. That means that growing your own will become the governments business.

*I don't smoke weed. I just don't trust government.

441 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:11:46pm

re: #440 Syrah

That's why I favor decriminalization more. Let people grow their own.

442 NelsFree  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:19:13pm

Good evening folks,

Charles, how about a poll asking:
Will Marijuana be legalized during the Obama Administration?
_Yes _No

443 Syrah  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:22:21pm

re: #442 NelsFree

Good evening folks,

Charles, how about a poll asking:
Will Marijuana be legalized during the Obama Administration?
_Yes _No

I would answer "sort of."

Expect half-measures.

444 UberInfidel67  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:27:19pm

I know the thread is dead but:

445 UberInfidel67  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:27:53pm

Hey. I screwed that up. I can never keep it straight. lol:

446 Perplexed  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:44:37pm

Solution to the drug problem? I call it the 10% solution where you give a person carrying drugs 10% of whatever they're carrying before turning them loose. The dealers will soon discover what LD50 is.

447 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 7:54:37pm

re: #63 american sabra

Pot is worse than alcohol in that THC is fat soluble & thus it stays in your system for weeks. Alcohol is out of your system quickly.

448 wiffersnapper  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:10:03pm

How about a war on stupidity? We should be able to win that, right?

449 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:15:42pm
450 JenBee  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:24:34pm

If someone's being a hostile asshole, is he drunk or is he high?

Odds are, he's drunk :D

I think the main reason the government keeps pot illegal is because they have no way to regulate and tax it. Any fool can grow a plant. But everyone cannot make their own whiskey.

Besides, we're no longer at war with terrorists, so we shouldn't be at war with drugs, either. *snort*

451 JenBee  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:26:33pm

re: #447 Ojoe

Pot is worse than alcohol in that THC is fat soluble & thus it stays in your system for weeks. Alcohol is out of your system quickly.

Alcholol is tough on your liver, probably as tough as pot is on your lungs.

None of it is 'good,' but everything in moderation is okay, imo :)

452 Pupdawg  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:59:11pm

Would someone please advise all the drug-dealing, murdering-for-money-and-drugs gang members that the war is over...maybe Barack baby's new drug guy can simply call the future carnage from drug trafficking collateral damage despite all the government treatment.
Suddenly and quite miraculously, the depth of the drug problem in America has been reduced to a baby boomer smoking a doobie in the privacy of his house on a Friday night after a hard week at the office. Treatment may well be in order.
Legalize it all and tax the crap out of it just like tobacco, alcohol and petro. Maybe we will balance the budget from the windfall of taxes, heaped upon more taxes and some extra taxes on those. Just possibly Chrysler and GM should retool and sell blow, smack, meth, crack, a little laughing gas, some shrooms, ample selection of huffin' products, airplane glue out the kazoo, uppers, downers and in-betweeners, bring absinthe back with a GM logo on it. I'd keep Ford out of the 'high times' business since there is too much history with the clinic and all back during the war. They should stick to the car t6hing. By all means necessary keep the Unions in the plants growing the plants and the sky should be the limit for pricing and taxing. If a 10 pack of Chrysler 'Crack Attack' would cost 2 bucks to make charge 40 bucks and the feds can get 35 of that per pack of 10 in taxes. Smack could easily bring 50 smackers a stick and Uncle Stoney could take 40 big ones per injection. Head to any bar and get a beer, a shot and a joint all for one attractive price (the MJ will cost as much as a shot of the dives finest Yak, though...considering unions and all). In fact, I think ACORN has the organizational skills and innate knack at criminal activity to handle all street distributions across the country and they can all become members of the new UAW (United Addiction Workers). Obama can nationalize all the poppy fields in the Middle East, marijuana farms in Mexico, meth labs in Alabama, mushroom-laden forest of Bigfoot land, crack kitchens in anytown USSSofA, cocoa leaves chillin' in China and anything else buzzworthy across the globe under the United Socialist Stoned States of America banner ('flag' might imply war and we do not war on any drugs or guys who blow us up for any reason...isn't getting 'wasted' and 'high' the goal?).
'Just say yes' to drugs. Boy, I hope this cease fire lasts until the smack, crack and Cheech and Chong smokes get flowing 'freely' at least.

453 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:00:56pm

re: #452 Pupdawg

Get a grip.

454 Ezekiel2517  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:24:18pm

Prepare for the crackhead and speedfreak population to soar in 2010.

Hmmm..not enough reloading supplies. May need to begin stocking up on crossbow bolts.

455 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:56:56pm

re: #454 Ezekiel2517

Prepare for the crackhead and speedfreak population to soar in 2010.

Much like there was a massive increase in alcoholism in 1933, right?
/

456 zombie  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:00:33pm

re: #455 Slumbering Behemoth

Much like there was a massive increase in alcoholism in 1933, right?
/

Yes.

Oh -- You were being sarcastic? There was a massive increase in alcohol intake and alcoholism after 1933. Perhaps you were unaware of that.

457 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:06:22pm

Porter Wagoner with Marty Stuart - Committed To Parkview

The war.

458 zombie  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:06:51pm
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration’s new drug czar says he wants to banish the idea that the U.S. is fighting “a war on drugs,” a move that would underscore a shift favoring treatment over incarceration in trying to reduce illicit drug use.

Notice the bolded word: "illicit."

The new policy will be to encourage drug use. They only want to decrease "illicit" drug use, simply by no longer calling drug use illicit.

You will never convince me that the goal of the legalizers like Obama is to actually decrease the amount of drugs consumed, by being "more compassionate" toward addicts. The goal is in fact to allow the free and unhindered consumption of drugs.

The new "drug czar" is a czar the way that Gorbachev was a Soviet Premiere: in both cases, their actual goal was/is to oversee the dismantlement of the organization they were chosen to lead.

I'm going to become a building demolition expert and rename myself "Pat The Structural Integrity Czar."

459 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:38:43pm

re: #458 zombie

You will never convince me that the goal of the legalizers like Obama is to actually decrease the amount of drugs consumed, by being "more compassionate" toward addicts. The goal is in fact to allow the free and unhindered consumption of drugs.

Where did anyone state otherwise? I still don't know what business it is of yours, or anyone else, what another person does to their own body by their own will unless they've committed another crime.

460 zombie  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:04:15pm

re: #459 Sharmuta

Where did anyone state otherwise?

I think that's exactly what the Obama administration and other "mainstream drug legalizers" are in fact trying to claim -- that by ending the aggressive "war on drugs" and taking a "loving" approach toward addicts, they in fact will be lowering the drug-usage in this country. Otherwise, they will never get the average middle-American on board with the program. The manistream-legalizers' stated goal is different from their actual goal. But I'm not sure how many people they're fooling.

I still don't know what business it is of yours, or anyone else, what another person does to their own body by their own will unless they've committed another crime.

So, if you saw someone contemplating suicide, or beginning to attempt suicide, you would do nothing to try to stop them?

I would.

And if I saw a society trying to commit suicide by poisoning itself, I'd try to stop it as well.

461 Syrah  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:17:53pm

re: #460 zombie

I am under no illusion that decriminalizing drugs will reduce drug use. I agree with you that it will increase it to some extent.

I still think it should be decriminalized. Its a trade off. Its a shitty trade off, but the alternative is worse.

I worry that the Obama administration will make things much worse than they need be by prevaricating about how it will decrease drug usage and by arguing for all the good things the new taxes can be used for. It was a nasty can of worms before the government became so involved, it will not be easy for the government to get away from the issue without adding harm to what will already be a painful process.

462 Baelzar  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:45:44pm

This is all BS.

Lip service.

Things will continue as usual: Sell alcohol (easily the most dangerous substance) and ban pot, cocaine, heroin...

It's the American way.

463 Syrah  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:03:05am

re: #462 Baelzar

This is all BS.

Lip service.

Things will continue as usual: Sell alcohol (easily the most dangerous substance) and ban pot, cocaine, heroin...

It's the American way.

Uh . . . Cocaine and Heroin are pretty dangerous. Much more dangerous than alcohol. Cocaine and Heroin will do very bad things to most everyone who partakes. Mostly permanent bad things. Alcohol is only that bad for a very small portion of the population.

Heroin may be one of the worst, with crack (a cocaine derivative) making a very close second, followed closely on its heels by meth. (Maybe crack is worse than Heroin. Hard to say. Both will fuck you up forever.)

Most illicit drugs are worse than alcohol. It is important to not misrepresent this.

464 Sharmuta  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:13:17am

re: #460 zombie

Fascinating you can have such compassion for society but not the afflicted.

People with addiction issues need help, not imprisonment. That includes alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling, etc. Are you going to incarcerate all these people because they're doing something you personally don't approve of?

465 dmjboose  Sat, May 16, 2009 1:04:28am

well, it's a step in the right direction. As long as he doesn't keep the police from cracking down on gangs.

466 FabioC.  Sat, May 16, 2009 1:35:38am

This looks a lot like just re-labelling without tackling the real big issues.

One, that drug trafficking is so profitable because the drugs are illegal.

Two, people's rights have been trampled with little effect on drug availability.

467 Sharmuta  Sat, May 16, 2009 2:28:32am

So much for personal libertinism.

468 Salamantis  Sat, May 16, 2009 2:50:05am

re: #52 Hucbald

Yeah, right. Drug laws are the biggest bonanza of all for lawyers and police departments. This will change nothing.

The criminal law judiciary, criminal law enforcement, and prison systems in this country are addicted to drug enforcement money.

Breaking them of their entrenched habit will be a hard row to hoe.

469 Salamantis  Sat, May 16, 2009 3:16:08am

re: #307 taxfreekiller

drugs are like the commie shit,

it has never worked
it will never work
it is wrong,
you know its wrong
beer makes people stupid
whiskey is worse
this shit the Mexican drug cartels and the mafia are selling is killing people every day
making drugs legal is wrong in every way, evil in fact

You must have on ordered society or you will end up with no society.

enable bad things you receive bad things

So we should criminalize everything you don't like, eliminate all personal choices, and all live in a puritanically monochromatic totalitarian world?

Naah. Others should be free to make choices that we ourselves wouldn't make. Open society democracy is a many-colored tapestry, not a single-hued wall.

470 Salamantis  Sat, May 16, 2009 3:23:51am

Decriminalizing marijuana would go a long way towards restoring the broken bonds of truth between the police and the citizenry. When cops bust honest, decent, hard-working, tax-paying folks just because they prefer smoking a joint to drinking a couple of brews when they veg out in front of their TVs, those folks' families and friends grow to distrust and resent them. And cops pay that distrust and resentment back in kind.

We need to remove that wedge, so that the good people in blue and the good people they protect and serve can join handas again, instead of viewing each other as predators and prey.

471 MacDuff  Sat, May 16, 2009 6:40:04am

As a boomer, I used pot for most of my early adult life. Those years were productive and I built a very good career, marked by regular promotions. I also built a very good marriage. I used pot as some use an after work cocktail or beer. Are there some people unable to control it? Of course, there are people who cannot control alcohol, or even food.

Five years ago I found myself in an industry that had Fed-mandated drug testing, so my pot imbibing days ended there. Do I miss it? I sure do, but one does what one has to do.

Pot is not, and should not be, in the same category as cocaine, meth, heroin, etc. Those drugs have the inherent ability to kill; pot does not.

What will I do when I retire? Probably buy myself a bad of good weed, put on some good music and enjoy myself. I would suspect that a lot of people my age will do the same thing.

I envision retirement homes, in the not-so-distant future, with old boomers passing the doobie out on the veranda. Mark my words, it will happen.

472 cartoonboy  Sat, May 16, 2009 7:13:53am

I think this is a move in the right direction. We have no more business sending drug users and abusers to jail then cigarette or alcohol users and abusers. I also believe that legalizing prostitution nationwide for consenting adults using the Nevada model - mandatory monthly blood tests, mandatory condom use, etc., will be a win for localities: increased tax revenues, decreased law enforcement expenditures, decreased disease. Legalization will allow prostitutes who are beaten or robbed by customers to report these crimes without incriminating themselves.

473 Altermite  Sat, May 16, 2009 8:00:01am

re: #332 jcm

What is the root of the inequities in certain neighborhoods?
What is a valid fix to these inequities?

First off look at school spending per student and results. The places with the highest spending have the worst results.

This isn't quite accurate. Many of the places that have high spending and terrible results typically have high spending in an effort to correct high results- teachers tend to want more to come to a terrible school district- this was a problem at my old one, where we had low enough performance that we needed a significantly larger budget just to attract the same level of skill.

Schools that do have higher spending right from the start tend do better.

474 kansas  Sat, May 16, 2009 8:00:11am

Think the drug cartels are gonna allow their congress critters to legalize drugs? Think legalized drugs would buy jet airplanes and yachts? Think again.

475 Altermite  Sat, May 16, 2009 8:02:40am

re: #460 zombie


The obama administration isn't interested in decriminalizing marijuana. There was an issue earlier, very near the election, where he laughed at the question when it was posed to him.

476 mojo9  Sat, May 16, 2009 9:43:09am

i know, let's call it "deterrence of amateur pharmacology".

477 zombie  Sat, May 16, 2009 9:51:35am

re: #471 MacDuff

As a boomer, I used pot for most of my early adult life. ...
I envision retirement homes, in the not-so-distant future, with old boomers passing the doobie out on the veranda. Mark my words, it will happen.

This is exactly the reason why I think there is so much pro-marijuana sentiment on LGF: I's a generational thing. Most people on LGF were born in the mid-'50s through mid '60s, and that is "the pot generation." This specific segment of the population is already very accustomed to marijuana use, and as a result tend to advocate it.

478 zombie  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:01:24am

re: #464 Sharmuta

Fascinating you can have such compassion for society but not the afflicted.

People with addiction issues need help, not imprisonment. That includes alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling, etc. Are you going to incarcerate all these people because they're doing something you personally don't approve of?

Where do I advocate incarceration for drug usage?

In most jurisdictions, ownership of small amounts of drugs "for personal use" is not a jailable offense any more. In fact, in most cities, they won't even target the lowest-level drug dealers, seeking instead to follow them to the bigger dealers.

The reason that most those drug users who get jailed in fact go to jail is NOT because they use drugs, but rather that their drug use leads to other criminal activity.

Crack-heads are rarely (if ever) jailed simply because they are crack-heads: they are jailed because they steal.

Meth addicts aren't jailed because they are meth addicts: they are jailed because they become violent and hurt someone.

Same is true for most other illegal drugs: People become addicted, and then cease working due to their addiction, and then need money to buy the drugs for their addiction, and end up committing theft, robbery, burglary. THAT's why they are jailed. This has nothing to due with a lack of compassion for addicts, but rather is about enforcing the law equally, regardless of the drug-usage of the criminal.

I'm all for "being compassionate" to addicts, and encourage treatment centers to break addictions. But if someone commits a crime, I'm not going to give them a free pass just becuase they have the special status of being a delicate drug user.

And I think we should show especial compassion for addicts by limiting access to the very thing that is ruining their lives -- i.e. by keeping drugs illegal.

479 Pupdawg  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:47:18am

re: #453 Sharmuta

Get a grip.

Thanks. I really need to.

480 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 16, 2009 11:26:52am

re: #401 Racer X

that and marijuana. Obviously marijuana has FAR less negative effects than opium but it isn't up to the government to decide. I am also against the government's "war on junk food." I always hear conservatives preaching "personal liberty" and "personal responsibility." Now, why does that include junk food which can shorten your lifespan if you eat it all the time, and not include natural drugs?

481 Sharmuta  Sat, May 16, 2009 11:37:41am

re: #478 zombie

Same is true for most other illegal drugs: People become addicted, and then cease working due to their addiction, and then need money to buy the drugs for their addiction, and end up committing theft, robbery, burglary. THAT's why they are jailed. This has nothing to due with a lack of compassion for addicts, but rather is about enforcing the law equally, regardless of the drug-usage of the criminal.

First- this doesn't happen just to people on drugs. The addiction can be anything and ruin their life. Second- where did anyone say that the law wasn't going to be applied equally? The article says they're going to stop calling it a "war on drugs". They haven't even said they're going to decriminalize marijuana- and you're already leaping to the conclusion that criminals will be roaming the streets (they already are anyways, you know) and that all hard drugs are going to be legalized. It's a strawman.

And I think we should show especial compassion for addicts by limiting access to the very thing that is ruining their lives -- i.e. by keeping drugs illegal.

So- we should be compassionate towards alcoholics and make liquor illegal again? While you feel you're being compassionate, others will see you as a tyrant because it's not your place to protect them from themselves. If a marijuana smoker is not violating any other laws- why is it your business what they're doing?

Regardless- prohibition creates a black market. While you think you're being compassionate towards users by keeping their drugs illegal, you are empowering the cartels. You are forcing otherwise law abiding citizens into criminality. Just because you personally find drugs repugnant doesn't mean everyone who uses them is a bad person or in need of your compassion. It may be that they're fine and just need to stop being viewed/treated as criminals or repugnant because they want to smoke a joint.

482 Sceptic Tank  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:36:33pm

Never happen. Just a name change, more endless spin and obfuscation from this high and mighty Administration. Drugs are a moneymaker illegal and the legal side. All that hardware for the Pot Terrorists. Enforce personal responsibility for each life. And no more Diminished Capacity in criminal cases. No marketing. Then allow for the pursuit of happiness.


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