Alan Keyes Arrested at Notre Dame with Radical Anti-Abortion Activists

Religion • Views: 4,695

Not one of these people uttered a word of protest when Notre Dame University tried to bring radical Islamist Tariq Ramadan to the school, to make him chairman of the Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies.

But Tariq Ramadan is in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals, so maybe they have that much in common.

Keyes, priest arrested at Notre Dame protest.

SOUTH BEND, Ind. – Former Republican presidential hopeful Alan Keyes, a Roman Catholic priest and 19 others were arrested Friday after marching onto the University of Notre Dame campus to protest President Barack Obama’s planned commencement speech.

The arrests marked the third straight Friday that protesters have been detained. They are angry about the school’s decision to give Obama, who supports abortion rights and embryonic stem-cell research, an honorary degree and have him speak at Sunday’s commencement.

“Notre Dame is arresting a priest,” the Rev. Norman Weslin, founder of the Lambs of Christ abortion protest group, said as Notre Dame security personnel put plastic restraints on his wrists Friday. “Why are you arresting a priest for trying to stop the killing of a baby? You’ve got it all backward.”

On May 1, anti-abortion activist Randall Terry and another man were arrested on campus while pushing strollers containing dolls covered in fake blood. On May 8, Keyes and 21 others, many of them pushing strollers containing dolls covered in fake blood, were arrested.

On Friday, there were no strollers or bloody dolls, but some of the protesters carried signs that read: “Defend her honor, rise and strike for the unborn.”

Members of the Lambs of Christ organization, formerly known as “Victim Souls of the Unborn Christ-Child,” have been linked to several incidents of violence — most notably James Kopp, who murdered physician Barnett Slepian in 1998.

UPDATE at 5/16/09 9:52:47 am:

More on the Lambs of Christ and their connection to militant anti-abortionists:

Kopp was on the FBI’s Most Wanted List for over two years before his capture in France in March 2001. He has pleaded not guilty to the New York state charge of second-degree murder. He also has pleaded not guilty to the related charges of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act, which prohibits violence and threats of violence to impede receiving or providing abortion services.

Kopp was present at pivotal episodes in the history of militant anti-abortion activism. He has been arrested in connection with numerous clinic blockades, including a major blockade of the Ladies Center in Pensacola. Fla., in 1986. The center was later the site of the first known murder of an abortion provider, Gunn, by local clinic protestor Michael Griffin. Kopp is also credited with authoring sections of the Army of God manual, a how-to for violence against abortion providers. Kopp also served as the advance man for the Catholic direct-action group Lambs of Christ, headed by the Rev. Norman Weslin. In 1992 Weslin told a reporter: “Unless you understand that this is a colossal war between Jesus Christ and Satan, you don’t understand what we are doing.”

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695 comments
1 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:13:26pm

Funny, someone on the torture thread today asked me what I have against Alan Keyes.

Behold.

2 Bloodnok  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:14:47pm

Looks like Keyes has gone 'round the South Bend.

3 baier  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:14:52pm

I remember his show on Fox...he is an angry angry man.

4 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:14:59pm

.....hitchin' in to Los An-guh-leeze........

5 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:15:39pm

The right-wing male Cynthia McKinney.

6 seagreenroom  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:16:08pm

More power to 'em.

President Trimester has no business anywhere near Notre Dame.

7 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:16:44pm

re: #3 baier

I remember his show on Fox...he is an angry angry man.

FNC seems to attract such both as viewers and talking heads.

The radicalization of the GOP continues apace.

8 stuck in california  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:16:48pm

Wasn't Keyes sane at one time?

9 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:16:56pm

Lots of people are pro life. Most of them are not radicals. Me, for example.

A majority in the USA is pro life, according to the latest survey.

IMHO, ND should not be giving President O an award. The Church counts support of abortion as a grievous sin, and ND may have forgotten it's a Catholic university.

10 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:17:03pm
“Why are you arresting a priest for trying to stop the killing of a baby? You’ve got it all backward.”

They're killing babies right there on campus?

What hogwash. If they really want to save some unborn babies, there are better ways of doing so than protesting the President, like volunteering at a crisis pregnancy center. That might have saved a baby today. This didn't.

11 David Simon  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:17:04pm
But Tariq Ramadan is in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals, so maybe they have that much in common.

I doubt it. Keyes's daughter is a lesbian.

12 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:17:15pm

Keyes is also a birth certificate kook, by the way.

13 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:17:47pm

re: #11 David Simon

I doubt it. Keyes's daughter is a lesbian.

Can you blame her?

14 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:18:01pm

re: #9 Catttt

Lots of people are pro life. Most of them are not radicals. Me, for example.

A majority in the USA is pro life, according to the latest survey.

IMHO, ND should not be giving President O an award. The Church counts support of abortion as a grievous sin, and ND may have forgotten it's a Catholic university.

They have not been Catholic for quite some time. They are very much a PC University.

15 Bobblehead  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:18:01pm

re: #8 stuck in california

Wasn't Keyes sane at one time?

I thought so. Not so much anymore.

16 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:18:28pm

I would be proud to have the President of The United States speak at my commencement..Period

17 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:18:32pm

re: #11 David Simon

I doubt it. Keyes's daughter is a lesbian.

I actually used to think that Alan Keyes was...

Oh never mind.

18 David Simon  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:18:37pm

re: #13 Charles

Can you blame her?

I have to admit, that was funny.

19 Truck Monkey  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:18:52pm

re: #8 stuck in california

Wasn't Keyes sane at one time?

Before he left Maryland for Illinois to run for senate. He used to be a talking head on TV quite often.

20 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:19:01pm

re: #12 Charles

Keyes is also a birth certificate kook, by the way.

The hits keep on playing, don't they?

Just how many people on the right in prominent positions aren't raving kooks?

21 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:19:42pm

re: #13 Charles

Can you blame her?

Are you saying being gay is a choice?

22 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:19:53pm

carrying a coupla keyes....

23 TedStriker  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:20:04pm

re: #13 Charles

Can you blame her?

Daaaaaaaamn....Charles, that's just ice-cold!

;-P

24 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:20:35pm

Here we go again - Notre Dame is CINO.

Who are you people, the Spanish Inquisition?

25 Gella  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:20:47pm

re: #21 Catttt

Are you saying being gay is a choice?

no, but that means with parent like that, she'd never be able to admit it to the world

26 MJ  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:20:49pm

"Alan Keyes calls Obama a radical communist"


This guy is NUTS!


He refuses to call Obama the President.

27 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:20:56pm

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Here we go again - Notre Dame is CINO.

Who are you people, the Spanish Inquisition?

Glad you are back. Let's chill.

28 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:21:28pm

re: #11 David Simon

I doubt it. Keyes's daughter is a lesbian.

That fact actually came to light when Keyes ran against Obama for the Senate in Illlinois back in 2004. Keyes responded to his daughter's coming out by disowning her. Such a compassionate man, such a good Christian.

/sarc on that last.

29 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:21:49pm

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Here we go again - Notre Dame is CINO.

Who are you people, the Spanish Inquisition?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

30 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:22:24pm

re: #22 windhorse

carrying a coupla keyes....

Don't touch my bags if you please Mr. Customs man...

//

31 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:22:35pm

re: #27 Catttt

Glad you are back. Let's chill.

Chillin' with Catttt...on a Friday evening.

It's been a bad week. I'll play nice.

32 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:23:04pm

re: #25 Gella

no, but that means with parent like that, she'd never be able to admit it to the world

Why does one's sexuality need to be admitted to the world?

33 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:23:37pm

re: #26 MJ

"Alan Keyes calls Obama a radical communist"

[Video]

This guy is NUTS!

He refuses to call Obama the President.

Plenty of people here do the same.

34 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:24:15pm

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Here we go again - Notre Dame is CINO.

Who are you people, the Spanish Inquisition?

Do I really need to?

35 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:24:19pm

re: #28 Dark_Falcon

That fact actually came to light when Keyes ran against Obama for the Senate in Illlinois back in 2004. Keyes responded to his daughter's coming out by disowning her. Such a compassionate man, such a good Christian.

/sarc on that last.

Keyes threw her out of the house and cut off all financial support. Then he tried to pretend that he didn't, when the media got wind of it. The guy is a despicable creep, in every sense of the word.

36 Truck Monkey  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:24:21pm

re: #32 pink freud

Why does one's sexuality need to be admitted to the world?

I'd just like to announce to everyone here that I am a raving heterosexual. You all must accept me and celebrate my choice.

37 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:24:26pm

re: #28 Dark_Falcon

That fact actually came to light when Keyes ran against Obama for the Senate in Illlinois back in 2004. Keyes responded to his daughter's coming out by disowning her. Such a compassionate man, such a good Christian.

/sarc on that last.

Actually, legally disowning her?

Fine man.

38 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:24:40pm

re: #32 pink freud

Why does one's sexuality need to be admitted to the world?

When one has a parent who is a member of the "wrong" political party. See Cheney for another example.

39 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:25:01pm

re: #24 Cato the Elder

Here we go again - Notre Dame is CINO.

Who are you people, the Spanish Inquisition?

40 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:25:10pm

re: #25 Gella

no, but that means with parent like that, she'd never be able to admit it to the world

Except she's been out for almost five years. I think it's the other way around - she was happy to admit it and become a free person, even though she lost her parents, whom she still loves. It's really sad, though. Her parents threw her out and disowned her, which is almost medieval.

Dr. Keyes thinks he is a good Catholic but has forgotten how to love his own daughter.

41 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:25:17pm

Alan Keyes = douchebag

42 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:25:29pm

re: #31 Cato the Elder

Chillin' with Catttt...on a Friday evening.

It's been a bad week. I'll play nice.

Me too. :D Probably.

43 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:25:46pm

re: #35 Charles

Wow, I never heard that! What an a-hole.

44 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:26:29pm

re: #35 Charles

Keyes threw her out of the house and cut off all financial support. Then he tried to pretend that he didn't, when the media got wind of it. The guy is a despicable creep, in every sense of the word.

Oh yeah, wonderful father there.

/ *vomit*

45 Gella  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:26:39pm

re: #43 mikalm

Wow, I never heard that! What an a-hole.

here is one of the articles
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

46 JPL17  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:26:58pm

re: #16 HoosierHoops

I would be proud to have the President of The United States speak at my commencement..Period

Yeah, but ND is doing more than that...they're giving him an honorary frickin' degree...it's disgraceful....

47 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:27:01pm

Hell, my beyond-liberal father didn't even disown me when I voted Bush.

48 HelloDare  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:27:12pm

Alan Keyes from his Comedy Central sitcom, Mr. Keyes Goes to Washington.

49 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:27:14pm

re: #26 MJ

"Alan Keyes calls Obama a radical communist"

This guy is NUTS!
He refuses to call Obama the President.

Obama is to communism what oatmeal is to steak.
We will be bored into socialism.
The blind led by the bland.

50 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:27:15pm

re: #40 Catttt

Except she's been out for almost five years. I think it's the other way around - she was happy to admit it and become a free person, even though she lost her parents, whom she still loves. It's really sad, though. Her parents threw her out and disowned her, which is almost medieval.

Dr. Keyes thinks he is a good Catholic but has forgotten how to love his own daughter.

I'd venture to guess that Keyes' loving or not loving his daughter is not predicated on her sexuality. It's simply the peg upon which he chose to hang that particular chapeaux.

51 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:28:01pm

Disowning a child because of their sexuality is cold hearted.

52 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:28:09pm

re: #46 JPL17

Yeah, but ND is doing more than that...they're giving him an honorary frickin' degree...it's disgraceful....

An honorary degree is standard operating procedure for a commencement speaker. ASU was an exception.

53 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:28:25pm

Here is a story that connects Weslin to murderers.
Kopp Lays Groundwork to Justify Murdering Slepian

Kopp was present at pivotal episodes in the history of militant anti-abortion activism. He has been arrested in connection with numerous clinic blockades, including a major blockade of the Ladies Center in Pensacola. Fla., in 1986. The center was later the site of the first known murder of an abortion provider, Gunn, by local clinic protestor Michael Griffin. Kopp is also credited with authoring sections of the Army of God manual, a how-to for violence against abortion providers. Kopp also served as the advance man for the Catholic direct-action group Lambs of Christ, headed by the Rev. Norman Weslin.In 1992 Weslin told a reporter: "Unless you understand that this is a colossal war between Jesus Christ and Satan, you don't understand what we are doing."

And Keyes is hanging out with him? Classy.

54 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:28:38pm

re: #28 Dark_Falcon

That fact actually came to light when Keyes ran against Obama for the Senate in Illlinois back in 2004. Keyes responded to his daughter's coming out by disowning her. Such a compassionate man, such a good Christian.

/sarc on that last.

Compare this to the compassionate acceptance with which the Cheneys treat their own lesbian daughter. They seem to have had less of a problem embracing her that even Cher has had accepting gay daughter Chastity.

55 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:28:54pm

re: #36 Truck Monkey

Personally, I am attracted to aardvarks, but that is my cross.

56 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:29:08pm

re: #50 pink freud

I'd venture to guess that Keyes' loving or not loving his daughter is not predicated on her sexuality. It's simply the peg upon which he chose to hang that particular chapeaux.

I can't judge him, but by his deeds, he seems damn twisted to me. Just my opinion.

57 Macker  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:29:26pm

re: #12 Charles

Keyes is also a birth certificate kook, by the way.

I wish Mike Ditka had run.

58 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:29:31pm

The Cheneys are decent people.

59 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:29:58pm

re: #56 Catttt

I can't judge him, but by his deeds, he seems damn twisted to me. Just my opinion.

Oh, he's a twisted fuck, of that there is no doubt.

60 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:29:58pm

re: #46 JPL17

Yeah, but ND is doing more than that...they're giving him an honorary frickin' degree...it's disgraceful....

What's going on? Everybody gets a degree for speaking Seriously..It is a standard thing...
Jeez...

61 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:29:59pm

re: #54 Salamantis

Compare this to the compassionate acceptance with which the Cheneys treat their own lesbian daughter. They seem to have had less of a problem embracing her that even Cher has had accepting gay daughter Chastity.

Cheney is class act one in so many things.

62 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:29:59pm

Keyes was caught on video a while back mumbling other conspiracies as well if I recall correctly, I forget the specifics however.

63 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:30:09pm

OT but good:

Checkout the sign I saw today.

64 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:30:26pm

re: #38 FurryOldGuyJeans

When one has a parent who is a member of the "wrong" political party. See Cheney for another example.

That was entirely justified. Hypocrite Cheney acting all family values and we're-so-normal. Does the world good to know that sexual orientation is no respecter of political poses.

65 Truck Monkey  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:31:02pm

re: #54 Salamantis

Compare this to the compassionate acceptance with which the Cheneys treat their own lesbian daughter. They seem to have had less of a problem embracing her that even Cher has had accepting gay daughter Chastity.

It should be noted that Sonny Bono had a far easier time accepting his daughters sexuality than the much more 'open minded' Cher did, although Cher did eventually come around.

66 TedStriker  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:31:47pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

That was entirely justified. Hypocrite Cheney acting all family values and we're-so-normal. Does the world good to know that sexual orientation is no respecter of political poses.

G-d, you can be such a stuck-up douche sometimes, Cato...

67 Opilio  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:31:52pm

Mostly OT:

Gallup: Majority call themselves pro-life

First time that's happened since Gallup started asking the question in 1995.

68 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:31:52pm

re: #1 Cato the Elder

Funny, someone on the torture thread today asked me what I have against Alan Keyes.

Behold.

Having seen more of him than the world at large (since he lives here), perhaps we know more - or knew it sooner. But by his deeds you shall know him.

69 Truck Monkey  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:32:00pm

re: #55 swamprat

Personally, I am attracted to aardvarks, but that is my cross.

Don't Aardvarks eat Swaprat...... Ohhhhh, I see now. Never mind.
//

70 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:32:21pm

I'm just wondering how a supposed man of God like mr keyes could have missed out on the message of compassion Jesus brought.

71 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:32:32pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

That was entirely justified. Hypocrite Cheney acting all family values and we're-so-normal. Does the world good to know that sexual orientation is no respecter of political poses.

So accepting a gay daughter is now hypocritical on family values?

Keyes is the hypocrite, not the Cheneys.

72 MandyManners  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:33:01pm

re: #13 Charles

Can you blame her?

What?

73 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:33:48pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

That was entirely justified. Hypocrite Cheney acting all family values and we're-so-normal. Does the world good to know that sexual orientation is no respecter of political poses.

He loves his daughter and defended her staunchly in public. I don't care if he's a commie or from the moon - a dad who supports his daughter like that is ok in my book.

74 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:34:06pm

re: #59 pink freud

Oh, he's a twisted fuck, of that there is no doubt.

One look into his weirdly glistening eyes when he launches into one of his wildly raving diatribes is enough to tell that Keyes is batshit crazy.

The man is in perpetual and permanent Rage Boy rant mode.

75 MandyManners  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:35:02pm

I'm outta' here.

76 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:35:29pm

re: #70 Sharmuta

I'm just wondering how a supposed man of God like mr keyes could have missed out on the message of compassion Jesus brought.

He should dip into his Bible:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
77 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:35:36pm
78 Truck Monkey  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:35:44pm

re: #73 Catttt

He loves his daughter and defended her staunchly in public. I don't care if he's a commie or from the moon - a dad who supports his daughter like that is ok in my book.

He is more than OK in my book. Every father should stand up for his daughter like this.

79 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:35:44pm

re: #73 Catttt

He loves his daughter and defended her staunchly in public. I don't care if he's a commie or from the moon - a dad who supports his daughter like that is ok in my book.

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

80 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:35:54pm

re: #74 Salamantis

Keyes: Stop Obama or U.S. will cease to exist

81 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:36:13pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

Cato, your out of your mind.

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:36:46pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

So now you are a mind-reader?

83 Condor  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:36:49pm

I don't understand how a Catholic university can award a degree to a man who approves of military commissions for detainees, won't permit photos of US torture tactics to be released, and won't prosecute the crimes of the previous administration.

(am I on the wrong board?)

(sarc/off)

84 rain of lead  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:37:02pm

re: #73 Catttt

He loves his daughter and defended her staunchly in public. I don't care if he's a commie or from the moon - a dad who supports his daughter like that is ok in my book.

dads and daughters should have a special kind of love
when that goes wrong it is just......sad.

85 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:37:09pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

That's an asinine statement.

86 David Simon  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:01pm

re: #73 Catttt

He loves his daughter and defended her staunchly in public. I don't care if he's a commie or from the moon - a dad who supports his daughter like that is ok in my book.

A parent can be disappointed, sure; but there is something seriously wrong with anyone who doesn't love their children.

87 rain of lead  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:07pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

you don't fucking know that!

88 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:29pm

Umm, Alan Keyes is a nut.

89 Condor  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:40pm

For all the complaints that the Church is controlled by an all-powerful hierarchy, it's interesting to note that this Notre Dame confrontation swelled up from below, with the bishops et. al. only running along after the ground swell. It wasn't ordered from the top.

(Take that, Ron Howard!)

90 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:41pm

re: #73 Catttt

He loves his daughter and defended her staunchly in public. I don't care if he's a commie or from the moon - a dad who supports his daughter like that is ok in my book.

Loving one's daughter (or son) regardless is more affirmative of family values than the hypocritical attitude of Keyes.

91 HelloDare  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:45pm

re: #77 Sharmuta

That deserved it's own Spinoff Link.

92 TedStriker  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:51pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

Like I said before, you really can be a douche....must be cathartic for you to get your Cheney hate on.

93 itellu3times  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:38:54pm

Hey one more idiocy to pile on the others, my neighbor in this apartment building moved out the other day, and now my landline phone doesn't work - tho it's on the same wire with this here functional DSL. Ten to one the phone guy wedged it, maybe took mine instead of hers. So I call Verizon, and what's their response? Quick diagnostic that it's their problem, and they hope to get it fixed by .... Monday PM, just in case someone needs to get to the interface, be available 8:00AM to 5:00PM, oh right. So much for service, or land lines. Fortunately I have the cell. Too bad I don't have Skype or something set up on the DSL, maybe I'd better look into it. Time marches on!

Back on topic, one more Republican with name recognition, Keyes, acting like a damnfool.

These are the craziest times.

94 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:39:11pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

Got an axe to grind on Cheney, or are you just bigoted?

95 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:39:18pm

Hoo boy. I've upset the Cheneytrons.

I shall go stand in the corner.

96 Truck Monkey  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:39:20pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

I don't think he had any say in the matter. I believe that it became, or was to become an issue at the VP debates he had with that scumbag Silky Pony Edwards. True to form Silky Pony brought it up and Dick Cheney slapped him down for it.

97 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:39:24pm

re: #21 Catttt

Are you saying being gay is a choice?

I doubt it, actually. But if there is an element of choice involved, growing up with a fanatical, crazy, hate-filled father like Alan Keyes certainly wasn't the best role model for a male companion.

98 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:39:37pm

re: #40 Catttt

Except she's been out for almost five years. I think it's the other way around - she was happy to admit it and become a free person, even though she lost her parents, whom she still loves. It's really sad, though. Her parents threw her out and disowned her, which is almost medieval.

Dr. Keyes thinks he is a good Catholic but has forgotten how to love his own daughter.

He is NOT being a good Catholic by disowning his daughter.

As far as I know, the simple fact that someone is homosexual is not considered evil or sinful by the Church.

What is considered sinful is actively engaging in a homosexual sex life, just as heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

99 Macker  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:39:41pm

re: #86 David Simon

A parent can be disappointed, sure; but there is something seriously wrong with anyone who doesn't love their children.

I still love my son, who hasn't talked to me in six years. I pity his mother though.

100 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:40:37pm

We are picking on Keyes here, but Randall Terry is every bit as bad. He used Terry Schaivo to grandstand, he's a shill in constant search of a stage for his hysterics. Only a few steps removed from the Phelps insanity.

From Randall Terry's Wiki page:

In March 1988, Randall Terry took in three troubled foster childen ages 3, 8 and 12. He adopted them seven years later. In 2000, Terry divorced his wife of 19 years and married Andrea Kollmorgen.

Both of Terry's adopted daughters became pregnant outside of marriage; one later converted to Islam.[3]

In 2004, Terry's son Jamiel Terry, the middle child who had been born in jail, publicly announced that he was gay and wrote an article for Out Magazine[4] for which he was paid $2,500.

Terry contends much of the article was written by other people and most of the statements purported to be facts in the article were untrue. Terry promptly disowned his son and claimed that that he had "prostituted" the family name. He attributed Jamiel's sexuality to his biological mother, saying that she was a prostitute. [5]

In 2005, Terry formally converted to Roman Catholicism.[6

fwiw

101 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:40:42pm

re: #95 Cato the Elder

No Cato. Your made a rather imbecilic statement, & projecting what you someone's feelings just might be without any proof whatsoever.

You are being called on it.

102 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:40:51pm

re: #95 Cato the Elder

Hoo boy. I've upset the Cheneytrons.

I shall go stand in the corner.

You are one really insufferable prick tonight. Maybe you should grow up and act adult.

103 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:41:36pm

re: #16 HoosierHoops

I would be proud to have the President of The United States speak at my commencement..Period

I have no problem with that. They always have the Pres do it. It would be beyond rude not to invite him.

It's the honorary law degree that is beyond the pale. And according to Rassmussen, that is a common reaction with Catholics, by a 65 to 25 percent margin. Also, by doing it, they are going against guidelines issued by the U.S. bishops.

In other words, the President is the President, and having him speak is one thing. Honoring him, and going against the Church when you do it, with a law degree - no.

104 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:41:39pm

re: #101 formercorpsman

Yes, I see the typos.

105 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:42:12pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

I do give him props for that. But I'm sure he would have preferred if she had stayed in the closet to maintain the façade.

You don't know that. You are letting your general rage and anger go in all directions, hon.

106 TedStriker  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:42:19pm

re: #95 Cato the Elder

Hoo boy. I've upset the Cheneytrons.

I shall go stand in the corner.

Fuck off, Cato...

107 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:42:25pm

re: #100 Thanos

We are picking on Keyes here, but Randall Terry is every bit as bad. He used Terry Schaivo to grandstand, he's a shill in constant search of a stage for his hysterics. Only a few steps removed from the Phelps insanity.

Absolutely -- Randall Terry is another raving nutjob, and his role in the Terri Schiavo case was ugly beyond belief.

108 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:42:44pm

Cato- what are you basing this Cheney thing on? I've never seen anything to suggest they're ashamed of their daughter.

109 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:43:12pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

That was entirely justified. Hypocrite Cheney acting all family values and we're-so-normal. Does the world good to know that sexual orientation is no respecter of political poses.

I don't think it's at all impossible for a person to believe that traditional "family values" are important and that it's important to promote that, while still being able to accept and love those family members who may have a different view or life.

110 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:43:41pm

re: #107 Charles

Absolutely -- Randall Terry is another raving nutjob, and his role in the Terri Schiavo case was ugly beyond belief.

He's sort of the Al Sharpton of pro-lifery.

111 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:44:10pm

re: #109 reine.de.tout

I don't think it's at all impossible for a person to believe that traditional "family values" are important and that it's important to promote that, while still being able to accept and love those family members who may have a different view or life.

Major kudos. Exactly.

112 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:44:20pm

Iron Fist Rule does not exclusively apply to alcohol.

113 Condor  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:45:10pm
Honoring him, and going against the Church when you do it, with a law degree - no.

Is a copy of THIS college degree going to be made public?

114 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:45:27pm

I suppose every one has linked to the video of Keyes rambling about anti-government militias overthrowing the government so I won't bother to dog up the link.

115 Macker  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:45:28pm

re: #21 Catttt

Are you saying being gay is a choice?

They have to find the "gay gene" first to prove that it isn't a choice....

116 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:45:59pm

re: #100 Thanos

If I had a dad like that, or like Alan Keyes, I'd claim to be gay just to piss them off. What a pair.

117 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:46:04pm

It gets better for Keyes. the Army of God was involved with anthrax scares at abortion clinics after 9/11. November 8, 2001 FBI: High Priority To Anti-Abortion Anthrax Mail

Some in the violent wing of the anti-abortion movement are concerned; this isn't a good time to be linked in the public's mind with Middle East terrorism. Ex-convict and Army of God member Joshua Graff has called for a "temporary Cease Fire in our war on the baby killers." He has expressed concern that "One or more of us has tried to capitalize on the national fear, and while I applaud the sentiment, by doing so they may well have left a deep association between us and that scumbag bin Laden."
118 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:46:06pm

"dog up the link"
/ I stink

119 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:46:33pm

re: #98 reine.de.tout

He is NOT being a good Catholic by disowning his daughter.

As far as I know, the simple fact that someone is homosexual is not considered evil or sinful by the Church.

What is considered sinful is actively engaging in a homosexual sex life, just as heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

Exactly. Dr. Keyes is in dire need of reconciliation, because he is painting himself into a corner.

120 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:46:36pm

re: #100 Thanos

We are picking on Keyes here, but Randall Terry is every bit as bad. He used Terry Schaivo to grandstand, he's a shill in constant search of a stage for his hysterics. Only a few steps removed from the Phelps insanity.

From Randall Terry's Wiki page:

fwiw

I see he divorced after 19 years of marriage. That used to be disallowed by the Catholic church in many countries.

His walls are made of paper.

121 JPL17  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:46:36pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

What's going on? Everybody gets a degree for speaking Seriously..It is a standard thing...
Jeez...

re: #52 Cato the Elder

An honorary degree is standard operating procedure for a commencement speaker. ASU was an exception.

There's nothing "standard" about a Catholic university giving an honorary degree to someone who, as state senator, blocked passage of a law that would have required abortionists to keep alive a child who survived an abortion, or who, as President of the United States, has threatened to take away all federal funding and legal protection for Catholic hospitals and caregivers who refuse to perform abortions for reasons of conscience.

Your failure to recognize this, like ND's conduct, is shocking.

122 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:46:49pm
Asked his position on the subject at a town hall meeting here, Cheney replied: "Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family is very familiar with. . . . With respect to the question of relationships, my general view is that freedom means freedom for everyone. People . . . ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to."

"I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family is very familiar with," Vice President Cheney said in response to a query about same-sex marriage.
Cheney went on to reiterate the position he first outlined in the 2000 campaign -- that same-sex marriage should be left to the states to decide. He noted, however, that Bush has endorsed a constitutional amendment preventing the states from recognizing such marriages.

"At this point . . . my own preference is as I've stated," Cheney said. "But the president makes basic policy for the administration. And he's made it."

123 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:47:01pm

All I said was they probably would have preferred it not to go public. Speculation, admittedly, but far-fetched? I don't think so. Their reaction when it came out was superb.

And I say that as one who thinks Cheney is the most sinister public "servant" we've seen since Spiro Agnew.

124 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:48:08pm

re: #121 JPL17

Enjoy your state of shock, then.

125 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:48:09pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

I suppose every one has linked to the video of Keyes rambling about anti-government militias overthrowing the government so I won't bother to dog up the link.

I have not seen it. Thank you for not linking it.

126 solomonpanting  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:48:40pm

re: #31 Cato the Elder

re: #27 Catttt

Glad you are back. Let's chill.

Chillin' with Catttt...on a Friday evening.

It's been a bad week. I'll play nice.

I don't know, Cato. After that #79 I'd be inclined to say you've had a bad hell day.

127 rain of lead  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:49:24pm

re: #123 Cato the Elder

well gee, I think he has to give that title now to the current resident
of the white house

128 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:49:26pm

re: #123 Cato the Elder

Yeah, your 123 parses well with 122.

129 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:49:27pm

Family values = loving one's children unconditionally, even if you don't understand or approve of their sexuality.

130 Opilio  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:49:49pm

re: #103 Catttt

Honoring him, and going against the Church when you do it, with a law degree - no.

The honorary doctor of laws degree reads:

"A community organizer who honed his advocacy for the poor, the marginalized and the worker in the streets of Chicago, he now organizes a larger community, bringing to the world a renewed American dedication to diplomacy and dialogue with all nations and religions committed to human rights and the global common good.

"Through his willingness to engage with those who disagree with him and encourage people of faith to bring their beliefs to the public debate, he is inspiring this nation to heal its divisions of religion, culture, race and politics in the audacious hope for a brighter tomorrow."

O RLY?

131 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:49:50pm

re: #120 Gus 802

I see he divorced after 19 years of marriage. That used to be disallowed by the Catholic church in many countries.

His walls are made of paper.

He divorced in 2000.
He converted in 2005.

132 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:50:12pm

re: #123 Cato the Elder

Cheney as "sinister". Please elaborate.

133 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:51:28pm

re: #119 Catttt

Exactly. Dr. Keyes is in dire need of reconciliation, because he is painting himself into a corner.

Right.
And also: a person can believe what the Church teaches, and still love those individuals, friends or family, who do not adhere to the Church's teachings, while simultaneously believing that their lives would be better if they did attempt to adhere to religious belief.

God does not shun "sinners".
Priests do not shun "sinners" (and in fact, are sinners themselves!).
Why should the rest of us, esp. if they are our own flesh and blood?

134 Miss Molly  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:51:50pm

It will be interesting to see just how many people show up for the protest mass and other activities at ND.

135 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:52:12pm

re: #126 solomonpanting

I don't know, Cato. After that #79 I'd be inclined to say you've had a bad hell day.

But I am trying to play nice. (Curtsies.)

And this is one of my hot buttons (abortion) with another of my hot buttons (gay issues) thrown in. Sigh.

136 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:52:19pm

re: #131 Catttt

He divorced in 2000.
He converted in 2005.

I know. He allows himself a great deal of "moral" flexibility. Frankly, these pseudo-theological leaders like Randall Terry should just crawl back into their cave.

137 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:52:32pm

re: #107 Charles

Absolutely -- Randall Terry is another raving nutjob, and his role in the Terri Schiavo case was ugly beyond belief.

Joseph Scheidler, who wrote Closed: 99 Ways to Stop Abortion, a handbook of abortion clinic sabotage methods, is another stone cold crazy. As is Michael Bray, auther of A Time To Kill, a book that attempts to Biblically justify the murder of abortion doctors.

138 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:52:34pm

re: #123 Cato the Elder

And I say that as one who thinks Cheney is the most sinister public "servant" we've seen since Spiro Agnew.


DARTH CHENEY

139 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:53:11pm

re: #129 mikalm

Family values = loving one's children unconditionally, even if you don't understand or approve of their sexuality.

Love is knowing people will disappoint you at times, but still loving them anyways.

140 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:53:35pm

re: #135 Catttt

But I am trying to play nice. (Curtsies.)

And this is one of my hot buttons (abortion) with another of my hot buttons (gay issues) thrown in. Sigh.

You have been nothing but the heart and soul of courtesy and discretion, Catttt. Can't say that about someone else.

141 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:54:00pm

re: #138 swamprat

DARTH CHENEY

The Force is strong in that one.

142 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:54:05pm

Sorry, I didn't realize Cheney worship was a requirement for membership.

Maybe I'll go shoot myself in the face.

143 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:54:22pm

re: #140 FurryOldGuyJeans

You have been nothing but the heart and soul of courtesy and discretion, Catttt. Can't say that about someone else.

True, that.

144 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:54:55pm

Cato.

Love ya guy.

Rest.

We're on your side.

145 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:54:56pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Is that a Glenn Beck clip?

146 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:54:59pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Sorry, I didn't realize Cheney worship was a requirement for membership.

Maybe I'll go shoot myself in the face.

You could just go hunting with him.

/sorry- had to make the joke

147 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:55:13pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Sorry, I didn't realize Cheney worship was a requirement for membership.

Maybe I'll go shoot myself in the face.

Quit acting like a little spoiled brat. Grow the fuck up, you prick.

148 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:55:24pm

It still creeps me out that Obama could say "punished with a baby".

If he can still think like that, I think he is not really a person to have any real power over other people.

149 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:55:36pm

Personally if I was forced to spend a weekend with my choice of either Cheney or Bush, I'd go for Cheney.

150 solomonpanting  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:56:04pm

re: #135 Catttt

But I am trying to play nice. (Curtsies.)

As is your custom.
;K

151 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:56:18pm

re: #133 reine.de.tout

Right.
And also: a person can believe what the Church teaches, and still love those individuals, friends or family, who do not adhere to the Church's teachings, while simultaneously believing that their lives would be better if they did attempt to adhere to religious belief.

God does not shun "sinners".
Priests do not shun "sinners" (and in fact, are sinners themselves!).
Why should the rest of us, esp. if they are our own flesh and blood?

Another "wonder if Dr. Keyes has read his Bible lately" moment:

"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice." For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
152 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:57:16pm

re: #149 Thanos

Personally if I was forced to spend a weekend with my choice of either Cheney or Bush, I'd go for Cheney.

After a few beers, there's no telling what you might learn from Cheney.

153 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:57:19pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Sorry, I didn't realize Cheney worship was a requirement for membership.

Maybe I'll go shoot myself in the face.

Maybe you should speak to your animosity. Again, what is the particular axe that you are grinding? I don't understand at all just where you are coming from.

154 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:57:33pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Sorry, I didn't realize Cheney worship was a requirement for membership.

Maybe I'll go shoot myself in the face.

To quote Cher - (smack!) - snap out of it!

155 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:58:07pm

re: #150 solomonpanting

As is your custom.
;K

:D

156 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:59:34pm

re: #121 JP17

There's nothing "standard" about a Catholic university giving an honorary degree to someone who, as state senator, blocked passage of a law that would have required abortionists to keep alive a child who survived an abortion, or who, as President of the United States, has threatened to take away all federal funding and legal protection for Catholic hospitals and caregivers who refuse to perform abortions for reasons of conscience.

Your failure to recognize this, like Nd's conduct, is shocking.

Oh Bullshit..I was raised a Catholic...Don't get all church political with me..
Look the POTUS accepted an invite to speak at ND. and he accepted it..Get over it...
Stop reading shit into this that isn't there....Seriously..
I repeat..I would be proud to have the POTUS speak...And I'd give him 3 honorary degrees in whatever..

157 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:59:36pm

re: #140 FurryOldGuyJeans

TYVM. :D I appreciate it.

158 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 8:59:40pm

Wow - never thought I'd see a thread on LGF that had commenters focusing a lot on Abortion. I thought that topic was a no-no out here. Am I wrong Charles?

159 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:00:29pm

re: #148 Ojoe

It still creeps me out that Obama could say "punished with a baby".

If he can still think like that, I think he is not really a person to have any real power over other people.

You know he shouldn't have power, as do I and most of the people on this forum. Sadly, most people either don't know that he said that or don't really understand the meaning of what he said.

160 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:00:49pm

re: #149 Thanos

Personally if I was forced to spend a weekend with my choice of either Cheney or Bush, I'd go for Cheney.


Not duck hunting.

I'd want to hang out GWB and Laura. I'd bring some Budweiser and a Scrabble game. That would be a blast.

161 Opilio  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:00:56pm

re: #158 realwest

Wow - never thought I'd see a thread on LGF that had commenters focusing a lot on Abortion. I thought that topic was a no-no out here. Am I wrong Charles?

Maybe Charles' house rules have evolved.

162 Macker  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:00:58pm

re: #156 HoosierHoops

Oh Bullshit..I was raised a Catholic...Don't get all church political with me..
Look the POTUS accepted an invite to speak at ND. and he accepted it..Get over it...
Stop reading shit into this that isn't there....Seriously..
I repeat..I would be proud to have the POTUS speak...And I'd give him 3 honorary degrees in whatever..

Community Organizing, Public Speaking, and Political Science?

163 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:01:10pm

He missed the first 2 times.

Then tried to call in an airstrike.

"Sir, you are talking to your juicebox again"

"At ease soldier!"

"I'm your nephew"

"I knew that. Go stand down-range."

"You forgot your meds again, didn't you?

164 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:01:32pm

re: #149 Thanos

Personally if I was forced to spend a weekend with my choice of either Cheney or Bush, I'd go for Cheney.

Spending time with either man would not be an imposition for me, but Cheney would be a better drinkin' buddy even if we don't drink.

165 Macker  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:01:37pm

re: #161 Opilio

Maybe Charles' house rules have evolved.

After all, he created them.

166 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:01:52pm

re: #67 Opilio

Not OT at all, and that is a very hopeful sign, the article you linked there. Not the bogus political "hope" either.

Good Night All.

167 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:02:28pm

re: #162 Macker

Community Organizing, Public Speaking, and Political Science?

MACKER!
Hope today finds you well!

168 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:02:35pm

Oh and btw, CHARLES, twice today I've tried to reach LGF on IE 7 and got a message saying that littlegreenfootballs.com is not reachable check the following - one of which was internet connection (nope mine works fine) and refresh and I did and still couldn't get on board and finally report the problem to Microsoft which I did do both times. Have you been experiencing any problems with IE7 connecting to LGF or is it just MS again?

169 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:02:38pm

re: #166 Ojoe

Not OT at all, and that is a very hopeful sign, the article you linked there. Not the bogus political "hope" either.

Good Night All.

good night, Ojoe.

170 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:02:57pm

re: #159 Dark_Falcon

Obama creeps me out big time.

171 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:03:01pm

re: #152 doppelganglander

After a few beers, there's no telling what you might learn from Cheney.

You'll need a large rag and some water!

172 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:03:23pm

re: #169 reine.de.tout

Good night riene

173 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:03:24pm

re: #157 Catttt

TYVM. :D I appreciate it.

I know I can be the flaming asshole at times; from what I've seen you never even come close. Something I aspire to achieving one day.

174 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:04:00pm

OT

Billy Joel - Scenes from an Italian Restaurant

175 mikalm  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:04:15pm

'Night, Ojoe

176 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:04:41pm

re: #172 Ojoe Uh, hi Ojoe, you said in your #166 Good night all and then reine said good night to you - and you're both still on board?!

177 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:05:02pm

I'll go hunting with Cheney long before I get in a car with Ted Kennedy.

178 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:05:05pm

re: #171 swamprat

You'll need a large rag and some water!

I'm afraid I have no idea what that means.

179 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:05:32pm

Look, all I said was - speculatively - that Cheney would probably have preferred if his daughter's sexuality had not become public knowledge. Then I gave him props for the way he acted when it did.

I also think Cheney's primary loyalties are and always have been to his oil buddies, Halliburton and the Carlyle Group. Country a distant second. And he was definitely put in place to wrangle GWB in the early days of his presidency, because certain people thought their puppet might need some extra string-jerking.

If you want to keep blowing gaskets over that, they're your gaskets.

180 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:05:32pm

re: #158 realwest

Wow - never thought I'd see a thread on LGF that had commenters focusing a lot on Abortion. I thought that topic was a no-no out here. Am I wrong Charles?

There are somethings all morally sane people should be able to agree on:

Alan Keyes's disowning of his daughter was a vile and callous act of a fanatic.

Barack Obama's "punished with a baby" line speaks to a lack of concern for human life that can only be described as scary and is a gross misreading of the pro-life position.

181 JPL17  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:05:38pm

re: #124 Cato the Elder

Enjoy your state of shock, then.

Sorry, I don't follow advice from people who respond with lazy, patronizing remarks like yours.

182 Macker  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:05:38pm

re: #168 realwest

Why Punish yourself with IE7?

183 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:05:55pm

re: #174 Gus 802

Still one of the best live shows one could see for the money.

His drummer, Liberty DeVitto, awesome as well.

184 Ojoe  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:06:00pm

re: #176 realwest

LGF is addicting, but I will try again ...

Good night all.

185 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:06:20pm

re: #176 realwest

Uh, hi Ojoe, you said in your #166 Good night all and then reine said good night to you - and you're both still on board?!

I was just telling him "good night" in response to his "good night", but it looks like neither of us is quite ready yet for "good night".

btw - go to google.com.
Search for "google chrome".
Download and use.

186 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:06:29pm

re: #178 doppelganglander

Waterboarding reference.

187 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:06:32pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

If you want to keep blowing gaskets over that, they're your gaskets.

You wish.

188 Miss Molly  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:07:08pm

I have to admit that I find Obama's views and voting record on abortion harsh to maybe beyond the pale. For a Catholic University to invite Obama to speak and give him an honorary degree given his views on abortion seems unexplainable. We will see what happens tomorrow.

189 American Sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:07:15pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

Sorry, I didn't realize Cheney worship was a requirement for membership.

Maybe I'll go shoot myself in the face.

LOL I'd say he'd do it for ya, but then they'd get mad at me...

I'm not a Cheney fan either, but I have to say, once I got over the hypocracy of it all, I was very happy he accepted his daughter as he did AND her baby. He didn't have to and I believe he and Lynne were sincere about it. In fact, something like that can go along way to help others in their acceptance and realize that real life is usually always stranger than fiction. He's allowed to have a moment of growth and we should recognize it. Keyes should have paid attention.

190 Killian Bundy  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:07:31pm
Alan Keyes

/be sure and thank him for Senator/Presidential candidate Barack Obama

191 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:07:54pm

re: #183 formercorpsman

Still one of the best live shows one could see for the money.

His drummer, Liberty DeVitto, awesome as well.

True. Love that song too, it's a classic, dramatic and rocks.

Brenda and Eddie.

192 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:08:30pm

re: #180 Dark_Falcon
Hi Dark_Falcon, well you certainly won't get any argument from me about Keyes, but I don't recall Obama saying "punished with a baby" or any words to that effect. Do you have a link for that?

193 avspatti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:08:43pm

re: #16 HoosierHoops

I would be proud to have the President of The United States speak at my commencement..Period

That is not what they are protesting. They are protesting the fact that O, an extreme abortion supporter, is to be given a prestigious award by ND which should be upholding Catholic doctrine opposing the 'elimination' of unborn human beings.

194 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:08:46pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Look, all I said was - speculatively - that Cheney would probably have preferred if his daughter's sexuality had not become public knowledge. Then I gave him props for the way he acted when it did.

I also think Cheney's primary loyalties are and always have been to his oil buddies, Halliburton and the Carlyle Group. Country a distant second. And he was definitely put in place to wrangle GWB in the early days of his presidency, because certain people thought their puppet might need some extra string-jerking.

If you want to keep blowing gaskets over that, they're your gaskets.

Do you also think that George Schultz got into government to advance the fortunes of the Bechtel corporation?

195 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:08:52pm

re: #189 American Sabra

LOL I'd say he'd do it for ya, but then they'd get mad at me...

I'm not a Cheney fan either, but I have to say, once I got over the hypocracy of it all, I was very happy he accepted his daughter as he did AND her baby. He didn't have to and I believe he and Lynne were sincere about it. In fact, something like that can go along way to help others in their acceptance and realize that real life is usually always stranger than fiction. He's allowed to have a moment of growth and we should recognize it. Keyes should have paid attention.

"real life" is messy.
And we all just try to do the best we can.

196 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:08:57pm

re: #182 Macker

Why Punish yourself with IE7?

Better IE7 than IE8 from what I read.

Two more reasons why I will stick with Win98SE for as long as I can. ;)

197 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:18pm

re: #148 Ojoe

It still creeps me out that Obama could say "punished with a baby".

If he can still think like that, I think he is not really a person to have any real power over other people.

that creeps me out too, big time. it is such a shocking cold statement.
it is obvious his opinion is made up abt. the prospect of his grandchild ever being born at an inopportune time. he is against it. HE has already labeled it a PUNISHMENT.
this is one of those times where he spoke from his heart. that statement came w/ out a teleprompter.

198 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:25pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Haliburton, Carlyle Group......Ah, I see

Devious that Cheney is, devious I say...

199 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:35pm

re: #182 Macker Um, actually, having tried FireFox I actually prefer IE7. Go figure!

200 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:42pm

re: #192 realwest

Hi Dark_Falcon, well you certainly won't get any argument from me about Keyes, but I don't recall Obama saying "punished with a baby" or any words to that effect. Do you have a link for that?

I don't know if he has a link, but in one of his campaign speeches, he did say that, I heard it.

201 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:44pm

If anyone would downplay the depravity and reach of the anti-abortion terrorism supporting network, just wade around armyofgod.com. I won't link to it from here. A long litany of murder promoting religious warriors there. I was pretty shocked. Blech.

202 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:45pm

re: #97 Charles

I doubt it, actually. But if there is an element of choice involved, growing up with a fanatical, crazy, hate-filled father like Alan Keyes certainly wasn't the best role model for a male companion.

Oh. I hadn't thought of that. You have a point, as usual. Glad I asked.

203 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:52pm

re: #189 American Sabra

LOL I'd say he'd do it for ya, but then they'd get mad at me...

I'm not a Cheney fan either, but I have to say, once I got over the hypocracy of it all, I was very happy he accepted his daughter as he did AND her baby. He didn't have to and I believe he and Lynne were sincere about it. In fact, something like that can go along way to help others in their acceptance and realize that real life is usually always stranger than fiction. He's allowed to have a moment of growth and we should recognize it. Keyes should have paid attention.

I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, if you read my statements carefully, that's more or less what I said.

204 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:09:55pm
205 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:10:07pm

re: #181 JPL17

Sorry, I don't follow advice from people who respond with lazy, patronizing remarks like yours.

Sorry yourself..
You had your chance to be a nice guy..But you have been a prick..Good luck from now on...

206 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:10:24pm

re: #185 reine.de.tout
Hi reine! Um what's google chrome?

207 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:10:55pm

re: #198 The Shadow Do

Haliburton, Carlyle Group......Ah, I see

Devious that Cheney is, devious I say...

Oh, and Cato, did you know he had a gay daughter?

208 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:11:09pm

re: #199 realwest

Um, actually, having tried FireFox I actually prefer IE7. Go figure!

I also tried firefox, and also safari, as well as google chrome.
I've had the best luck with google chrome and safari is just about equal, I just better like how google chrome works.

get it. use it.

209 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:11:23pm

re: #191 Gus 802

There is not much I don't like from Billy.

I DJ as a hobby, and one of the best wedding receptions was for an Italian family from L.I.

It was a blast.

And the deep pile carpets...

210 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:11:57pm

re: #206 realwest

Hi reine! Um what's google chrome?

It's a web browser.
Go to google.com
search for "google chrome".
click on it, download it, and use it.

211 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:12:04pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Look, all I said was - speculatively - that Cheney would probably have preferred if his daughter's sexuality had not become public knowledge. Then I gave him props for the way he acted when it did.

I also think Cheney's primary loyalties are and always have been to his oil buddies, Halliburton and the Carlyle Group. Country a distant second. And he was definitely put in place to wrangle GWB in the early days of his presidency, because certain people thought their puppet might need some extra string-jerking.

If you want to keep blowing gaskets over that, they're your gaskets.

Now you're just spinning a lefty conspiracy theory. Go sell crazy somewhere else, I'm all stocked up on it here.

212 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:12:26pm

re: #200 reine.de.tout
Oh I don't doubt you reine, nor do I doubt Dark_Falcon but I was looking for some sort of context - when and why did he say it, was it in response to a question or one of his teleprompter scripted speeches?

213 Miss Molly  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:13:07pm

realwest -- I remember seeing Obama make the "punished with a baby" at a campaign speech and this raised some fuss in the media at the time.

214 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:13:12pm

re: #194 Salamantis

Do you also think that George Schultz got into government to advance the fortunes of the Bechtel corporation?

Would it be a shock to you if he had?

215 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:13:48pm

re: #209 formercorpsman

There is not much I don't like from Billy.

I DJ as a hobby, and one of the best wedding receptions was for an Italian family from L.I.

It was a blast.

And the deep pile carpets...

That's funny. I am a rug freak. I love rug shopping - online mostly. I am one of the few people in the world who goes to Carpet World to brouse.

216 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:13:51pm

re: #209 formercorpsman

There is not much I don't like from Billy.

I DJ as a hobby, and one of the best wedding receptions was for an Italian family from L.I.

It was a blast.

And the deep pile carpets...

Pizzas and sodas! I lived in West Islip for less then a year. Was a shrimp at the time.

I got into Joel later on in Jersey. Driving around beautiful Ocean County.

217 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:13:56pm
218 neocon hippie  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:14:15pm

Can anyone figure this one out:

[Link: rightwingnews.com...]

219 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:14:23pm

re: #212 realwest

Oh I don't doubt you reine, nor do I doubt Dark_Falcon but I was looking for some sort of context - when and why did he say it, was it in response to a question or one of his teleprompter scripted speeches?

IIRC it was during one of the primary Dem candidate debates.

220 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:14:40pm

re: #213 Miss Molly
Good golly Miss Molly! :) I don't recall the MSM ever getting into a fuss or lather over Obama during the campaign.

221 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:14:52pm

re: #212 realwest

Oh I don't doubt you reine, nor do I doubt Dark_Falcon but I was looking for some sort of context - when and why did he say it, was it in response to a question or one of his teleprompter scripted speeches?

Ah, that I don't recall in sufficient detail to be of any help to you.

222 Killian Bundy  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:15:04pm

/punished with a baby

223 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:15:06pm

re: #215 Catttt

Oddly Catttt, I can't say that surprises me at all now knowing that.

No, not an insult there either.

224 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:15:43pm

re: #216 Gus 802

Good stuff.

225 Macker  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:15:46pm

re: #217 Iron Fist

Worse yet, I'd hate to think what БХО's children would be thinking about that statement.

226 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:16:31pm

re: #220 realwest

Good golly Miss Molly! :) I don't recall the MSM ever getting into a fuss or lather over Obama during the campaign.

It was a minor controversy because it was during one of the primary debates IIRC. Hillary hadn't been completely written off by the FMSM at the time.

227 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:16:47pm

re: #222 Killian Bundy

[Video]/punished with a baby

Thank you, Killian.

228 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:16:57pm

re: #218 neocon hippie

Sounds like onion stuff to me.

229 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:17:25pm

Punished with a baby....


230 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:17:31pm

re: #223 formercorpsman

Oddly Catttt, I can't say that surprises me at all now knowing that.

No, not an insult there either.

I have Overstock open in another window. :D

231 Miss Molly  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:17:47pm

realwest --- The comment Obama made "punished with a baby" didn't get a "big" fuss in the media but it got a little notice for a day or so and then I think it was gone. Of course the media would not allow something negative about Obama to come out for very long if they can help it.

232 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:18:01pm

re: #222 Killian Bundy

[Video]

/punished with a baby

"Punished" with a baby or an STD.
One's like the other, I guess, in his mind.

233 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:18:17pm

re: #230 Catttt

You will never meet my wife.

234 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:18:45pm

I apologist if this has been posted, but the new pick for ambassador to China is going to shake up both sides. It's the popular governor of Utah.


China.

235 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:18:55pm

re: #232 reine.de.tout

"Punished" with a baby or an STD.
One's like the other, I guess, in his mind.

Both come from unprotected sex, so why not conflate the two?

236 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:19:17pm

re: #233 formercorpsman

To be totally fair, my wife is one hell of a shopper.

That woman can sniff out deals like nobody I have ever known.

It is still painful though.

237 American Sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:19:21pm

re: #203 Cato the Elder

I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, if you read my statements carefully, that's more or less what I said.

I agree with you they wanted to keep Mary in the closet. There's this article about it from Salon about an interview Lynne had with Cokie Roberts.

[Link: archive.salon.com...]

On Sunday, when ABC's Cokie Roberts started to ask the GOP vice presidential nominee's wife about having a daughter who has "declared she's openly gay," an irate Lynne Cheney shot back: "Mary has never declared such a thing." Cheney then blasted the media for its interest in the story, and chided Roberts: "I'm surprised, Cokie, that even you would want to bring it up on this program."

"I have two wonderful daughters. I love them very much. They are bright; they are hard-working; they are decent. And I simply am not going to talk about their personal lives," Cheney told Roberts.

I know how much folks like Salon here, but I think the story is accurate.

238 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:19:37pm

Why in hell can't these folks protest without the histrionics?

239 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:20:14pm

re: #225 Macker

Worse yet, I'd hate to think what БХО's children would be thinking about that statement.

i wouldn't want to be a pregnant teenage girl w/ a father like that.
(i thank my lucky stars my dad was not like that s.o.b.)

240 Bloodnok  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:20:28pm

re: #234 avanti

I apologist if this has been posted, but the new pick for ambassador to China is going to shake up both sides. It's the popular governor of Utah.

China.

That would be an excellent title for your autobiography.

241 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:20:38pm

re: #217 Iron Fist

He was pretty baldly stating that he would prefer his daughter to abort an unplanned pregnancy rather than carry the child to term. Not "I would want her to have options" or "I would love and support my daughter in her time of need". Not her "chioce", but his. It was an amazingly inarticulate statement. It is one that will come back to haunt him, I am sure. Not necessarily with the voters, but years from now when his grandchild is old enough to question him on it.

That would be a very hard statement to own up to if your grandchild comes to you and says "Grandpa, what did you mean when you said 'Punished with a baby'? Am I a punishment?" That is the kind of statement that you'd have to just want to cringe away from.

That really cooked his goose for me. I was a Catholic Charities bastard baby. My mother was 17 and my father 19. Thank goodness my Catholic, unmarried birth mother didn't view me as a punishment. Unplanned, for sure. Punishment, no.

242 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:20:50pm

re: #234 avanti

Meh. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

243 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:21:04pm

re: #234 avanti

I apologist if this has been posted, but the new pick for ambassador to China is going to shake up both sides. It's the popular governor of Utah.

heads exploding in 3,2,1...

244 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:21:44pm
245 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:21:47pm

re: #201 Mich-again

If anyone would downplay the depravity and reach of the anti-abortion terrorism supporting network, just wade around armyofgod.com. I won't link to it from here. A long litany of murder promoting religious warriors there. I was pretty shocked. Blech.

Yeah; they have an entire section, complete with smiling pic, singing Paul Hill's praises and linking to his writings. Paul Hill was the Methodist minister who was executed in Florida for walking into an abortion clinic parking lot and murdering an abortion doctor and a clinic escort and wounding the escort's wife with a shotgun in my hometown, as they parked the car in which they arrived for procedures that day.

I was at the courthouse to contest a traffic ticket and ran into Paul Hill when the judge told him he was no longer allowed to approach within a hundred yards of the clinic. He obviously had no intention of obeying the court, as it was only weeks later that he committed his multiple murder. I still remember the serene smile on his face and the flat-eyed fervor in his eyes. It chilled me to my marrow; I immediately knew that I was beholding a crazed fanatic. I have since encountered descriptions of Palestinian vest bombers wearing the same dreamy-eyed smile right before they exploded themselves in ther midst of crowds.

246 pink freud  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:21:50pm

re: #212 realwest

Oh I don't doubt you reine, nor do I doubt Dark_Falcon but I was looking for some sort of context - when and why did he say it, was it in response to a question or one of his teleprompter scripted speeches?

"punished with a baby"

247 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:21:56pm

re: #186 swamprat

Waterboarding reference.

Ah! Now it's funny!

248 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:21:57pm

Goodnight Saigon - Billy Joel

249 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:22:19pm

re: #237 American Sabra

I know how much folks like Salon here, but I think the story is accurate.

Well, looking at what you posted there, it could also be that she did not feel it was appropriate or desirable to talk about non-public members of the family.

I wouldn't.

250 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:22:22pm

re: #233 formercorpsman

You will never meet my wife.

Mrs. Corpsman - Oriental Weavers (I have them bookmarked) is awesome.......... /hee hee hee

251 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:22:32pm

re: #222 Killian Bundy
Thanks Killian - all I can say is I'm stunned. And I really didn't expect that President Obama could still stun me with anything he said or says.

Just Wow.

252 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:23:05pm

re: #237 American Sabra

Would it ever cross your mind, that it just might be a personal thing for them?

Furthermore, if you were either Cheney parent, just how much trust would you have for the media?

People do have a right to privacy, or just might be private themselves.

Would you approve of the media pushing interest in such a story for ideological reasons?

253 JPL17  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:23:49pm

re: #156 HoosierHoops

Oh Bullshit..I was raised a Catholic...Don't get all church political with me..
Look the POTUS accepted an invite to speak at ND. and he accepted it..Get over it...
Stop reading shit into this that isn't there....Seriously..
I repeat..I would be proud to have the POTUS speak...And I'd give him 3 honorary degrees in whatever..

Don't "bullshit" me. YOU'RE the one who said it was "standard" for a Catholic university to award an honorary degree to a politician who has no sympathy for abortion survivors and who has threatened to put every Catholic hospital in the country on the auction block. Obviously, your claim that this is standard is BULLSHIT. I simply challenged you on it, and so far you've failed to give a cogent reason why a Catholic university should give an honorary degree to this radically anti-Catholic politician.

254 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:24:04pm

I had a roomie in college whose bf was an Iranian whose family dealt in rugs. We had the most gorgeous Persian, tribal-made rugs you ever saw. Sigh.

255 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:24:17pm

Good evening.

Ron Paul.

256 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:24:22pm

Over at Drudge....

PELOSI STEPS DOWN

257 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:24:31pm

re: #256 windhorse

jkjk

258 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:24:47pm

re: #224 formercorpsman
(and GUS 802) just for y'all: [Link: www.imeem.com...]

259 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:25:21pm

re: #234 avanti

I apologize if this has been posted, but the new pick for ambassador to China is going to shake up both sides. It's the popular governor of Utah.

China.

PIYF

It's actually a good move by Obama. He puts a popular member of the GOP on his team and gets him out of the country. A very effective neutralization. I still don't like him but I must say: "Well played, Mr. President."

260 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:25:41pm

re: #234 avanti

I apologist if this has been posted, but the new pick for ambassador to China is going to shake up both sides. It's the popular governor of Utah.

China.

Actually, I doubt it will excite either side very much. Good move by Obama in that it sidelines a potential rival. The right really doesn't give much of a hoot, doesn't have a stake in the guy. The left will get over it in an instant, after all it is an Obama decision.

261 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:26:12pm

re: #241 Catttt

That really cooked his goose for me. I was a Catholic Charities bastard baby. My mother was 17 and my father 19. Thank goodness my Catholic, unmarried birth mother didn't view me as a punishment. Unplanned, for sure. Punishment, no.

Goodness, I'm going to cry now.
My daughter had a baby a year ago at 16.
Placed for adoption thru Catholic Charities.
Beautiful child and wonderful family, we visited a week or two ago.
This couple now has a child they had been waiting 9 years for.
I believe in my heart God brought us all together.

262 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:26:14pm

re: #250 Catttt

Your too damn much.

263 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:26:31pm

re: #241 Catttt

That really cooked his goose for me. I was a Catholic Charities bastard baby. My mother was 17 and my father 19. Thank goodness my Catholic, unmarried birth mother didn't view me as a punishment. Unplanned, for sure. Punishment, no.

I was a Catholic Charities baby myself. There are an amazing number of adoptees and adoptive parents here.

264 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:26:58pm

re: #234 avanti Oh good! Maybe he can talk to the Chinese about oh, Cap and Trade or somesuch?!

265 fizzlogic  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:27:06pm

Over the years I've yet to find anything on which Alan Keyes and Rush Limbaugh disagree. Perhaps someone could enlighten me.

266 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:27:08pm

re: #256 windhorse

Over at Drudge....

PELOSI STEPS DOWN

Dude, don't tease.

267 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:27:11pm

re: #245 Salamantis

Your story (which is pretty remarkable really) confirmed what I was starting to think when I was wading around the links at that site. These people are not that far from Al Qaeda.

268 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:27:14pm

re: #258 realwest

(and GUS 802) just for y'all: [Link: www.imeem.com...]

Thanks RW. Billy Joel has a never ending repertoire of great songs.

269 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:27:57pm

re: #256 windhorse

Over at Drudge....

PELOSI STEPS DOWN

Don't get me all excited like that.

270 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:28:41pm

re: #261 reine.de.tout

Goodness, I'm going to cry now.
My daughter had a baby a year ago at 16.
Placed for adoption thru Catholic Charities.
Beautiful child and wonderful family, we visited a week or two ago.
This couple now has a child they had been waiting 9 years for.
I believe in my heart God brought us all together.

{reine}

271 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:28:48pm

re: #256 windhorse

Over at Drudge....

PELOSI STEPS DOWN

Not at all funny.

272 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:28:58pm

re: #269 doppelganglander
Cool picture of the shuttle though.

273 Killian Bundy  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:29:09pm

re: #251 realwest

all I can say is I'm stunned. And I really didn't expect that President Obama could still stun me with anything he said or says.

Just Wow.

/just pay attention when he talks about the economy, next up, trying to fire Ken Lewis, CEO of Bank of America, nevermind that the government owns zero stock in BofA

274 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:29:21pm

Cato, you better hush up before the Haliburton black helicopters come to whisk you away.

275 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:08pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

PIYF

It's actually a good move by Obama. He puts a popular member of the GOP on his team and gets him out of the country. A very effective neutralization. I still don't like him but I must say: "Well played, Mr. President."

I have to think the governor must have known he did not have a future in the GOP, but I had hoped the popular governor could be a moderate voice. I agree it's a great choice on several levels.

276 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:15pm

re: #245 Salamantis

Yeah; they have an entire section, complete with smiling pic, singing Paul Hill's praises and linking to his writings. Paul Hill was the Methodist minister who was executed in Florida for walking into an abortion clinic parking lot and murdering an abortion doctor and a clinic escort and wounding the escort's wife with a shotgun in my hometown, as they parked the car in which they arrived for procedures that day.

I was at the courthouse to contest a traffic ticket and ran into Paul Hill when the judge told him he was no longer allowed to approach within a hundred yards of the clinic. He obviously had no intention of obeying the court, as it was only weeks later that he committed his multiple murder. I still remember the serene smile on his face and the flat-eyed fervor in his eyes. It chilled me to my marrow; I immediately knew that I was beholding a crazed fanatic. I have since encountered descriptions of Palestinian vest bombers wearing the same dreamy-eyed smile right before they exploded themselves in ther midst of crowds.

Fanatics are found in all places and persuasions. Monsters like Hill are thankfully rare, but even so such barbarians can do civilization great damage. Thank you more doing your part in exposing these villains.

277 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:21pm

re: #236 formercorpsman
Uh, my friend could y'all please check your e-mail (the one you hardly ever use?!)!

278 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:24pm

re: #274 Thanos

(Hence the Goodnight Saigon playing in the background)

279 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:27pm

re: #253 JPL17

Don't "bullshit" me. YOU'RE the one who said it was "standard" for a Catholic university to award an honorary degree to a politician who has no sympathy for abortion survivors and who has threatened to put every Catholic hospital in the country on the auction block. Obviously, your claim that this is standard is BULLSHIT. I simply challenged you on it, and so far you've failed to give a cogent reason why a Catholic university should give an honorary degree to this radically anti-Catholic politician.

Sorry to drive this up on you..I'm sorry..
Ok. Colleges hand out degrees like candy..Personally I think I should have 6 already..I was just saying if you are a POTUS..Dem or GOP..You are going to roll seriously in the degrees..This is nothing new,,just saying..
Again..Sorry..didn't mean to pick a fight

280 kingkenrod  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:27pm

re: #234 avanti

I apologist if this has been posted, but the new pick for ambassador to China is going to shake up both sides. It's the popular governor of Utah.

China.

Doesn't that neutralize Huntsman as a candidate in 2012? He'd only be able to spend a max of two years as ambassador, and then he'd have to turn on his boss. Working for Obama will not raise his profile in the GOP, though it might among independents. Ambassadorships are usually patronage jobs.

281 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:33pm

re: #246 pink freud

"punished with a baby"


[Video]

it's worse than i thought.
he said "punished w/ a baby" and "punished w/ an s.t.d."
like they are in the same category.
being pregnant and having a disease.
what a disconnected person.

282 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:43pm

re: #265 trendsurfer
Don't know enough about Keyes to comment. On purpose, he always struck me as a nut.

283 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:30:55pm

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

Fanatics are found in all places and persuasions. Monsters like Hill are thankfully rare, but even so such barbarians can do civilization great damage. Thank you more for doing your part in exposing these villains.

PIMF

284 spirochete  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:31:09pm

Hmmm. Spring and Autumn. I think I just might know who Avanti is...

285 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:31:16pm

re: #269 doppelganglander

Don't get me all excited like that.

I was at least as excited, she's a thorn in the parties ass.

286 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:31:31pm

re: #261 reine.de.tout

Oh wow. Now I'm going to cry. { {reine} }

287 American Sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:32:00pm

re: #249 reine.de.tout

Well, looking at what you posted there, it could also be that she did not feel it was appropriate or desirable to talk about non-public members of the family.

I wouldn't.

You, however, are not (or was not) the 2nd most powerful person in the United States. It looks terribly hypocritical. People want to think that their leaders practice what they preach.

288 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:32:02pm

re: #280 kingkenrod

Ambassadorships are usually patronage jobs.

Not in China they aren't.

289 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:32:15pm

OT:

I didn't get an answer to this on the torture thread.

Kenneth made the statement that if the SERE protocols are not torture when applied to American servicemen in training, they are not torture when applied in the same way to detainees at Gitmo. Fair enough.

So:

So, if "enhanced interrogation techniques" à la SERE were applied, by the book, with no deviation, doctor standing by, all protocols met to the letter for, say, three days running at eight waterboardings a day in a combat zone by trained professional operatives trying to get the subject to divulge plans for an impending attack on their positions, this would meet the definition of "not torture", right?

Oh, I forgot, the subject is an American G.I. being interrogated by the enemy. All other factors being equal.

Still not torture?

Or does the side that happens to be using it determine whether a thing is torture or not?

290 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:32:16pm

Cato strolls in, takes a leak on Cheney's leg; tosses his daughter, and then offers no explanation beyond "Haliburton" and "Carlyle Group". Interesting guy this Cato. I can't figure out if he dislikes politicians from Wyoming or gays.

291 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:32:24pm

re: #281 nyc redneck

it's worse than i thought.
he said "punished w/ a baby" and "punished w/ an s.t.d."
like they are in the same category.
being pregnant and having a disease.
what a disconnected person.

I guess children are like a sexually transmitted tumor to him.

292 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:32:26pm

re: #281 nyc redneck

it's worse than i thought.
he said "punished w/ a baby" and "punished w/ an s.t.d."
like they are in the same category.
being pregnant and having a disease.
what a disconnected person.

Heh - I told you that you were in my head. See:
re: #232 reine.de.tout

"Punished" with a baby or an STD.
One's like the other, I guess, in his mind.

293 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:33:05pm

re: #285 avanti

That's saying something when she's a bigger asset to the GOP than any blue-dog Dem.

294 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:33:09pm

re: #271 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not at all funny.

That needs a song. Pelosi going that is.

It's A Long Way To Tipperary

:)

295 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:33:31pm

Obama's parents were "punished with a baby".....

296 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:33:36pm

re: #268 Gus 802
You're quite welcome. Everytime I surf through Imeems Billy Joel section I'm sorta astounded at the number of good songs he had.
And I was at the concert at which he introduced this song - Long Island fisherman really were hurting:
[Link: www.imeem.com...]

297 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:33:57pm

re: #295 windhorse

(and, weren't we all?)

298 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:34:09pm

re: #285 avanti

I was at least as excited, she's a thorn in the parties America's ass.

fixed.

299 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:34:10pm

re: #295 windhorse

Obama's parents were "punished with a baby".....

Not just his parents.

300 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:34:32pm

re: #280 kingkenrod

Doesn't that neutralize Huntsman as a candidate in 2012? He'd only be able to spend a max of two years as ambassador, and then he'd have to turn on his boss. Working for Obama will not raise his profile in the GOP, though it might among independents. Ambassadorships are usually patronage jobs.

If he's interested in the job, he clearly has no plans to run in 2012. That may be a smart move on his part, since the glassy-eyed masses may not wake up by then. It's also pretty smart to gain international experience, especially with China. He already speaks Mandarin and appears to have more than half a clue about the job, which puts him light years ahead of most Obama appointees. It could work out pretty well for him.

301 American Sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:34:35pm

re: #252 formercorpsman

Would it ever cross your mind, that it just might be a personal thing for them?

Furthermore, if you were either Cheney parent, just how much trust would you have for the media?

People do have a right to privacy, or just might be private themselves.

Would you approve of the media pushing interest in such a story for ideological reasons?

Like I said above, this is the 2nd most public man in our country. His life cannot be a secret. Lynne may not want have wanted to discuss it but she denied it. She certainly could have admitted it and said she'd rather not discuss it. That's not what she said.

302 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:34:41pm
303 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:34:41pm

re: #270 doppelganglander

re: #286 Catttt

Paying attention to the two of you, I'm glad to know you "Catholic Charities" kids come out just fine, better than fine, really!

304 JPL17  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:35:06pm

re: #205 HoosierHoops

Sorry yourself..
You had your chance to be a nice guy..But you have been a prick..Good luck from now on...

Ah, yes...if I would only ask people to unclench their fist...then everything will be sweetness and light....

305 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:35:14pm

re: #289 Cato the Elder
Hello, the enemy doesn't use such a refined technique as waterboarding. A drill to the kneecap, cut off fingers one at a time, etc.... The enemy doesn't wear uniforms, belongs to no recognizeable military, they do not meet the Geneva Code for armed combatants.

306 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:35:15pm

re: #296 realwest

You're quite welcome. Everytime I surf through Imeems Billy Joel section I'm sorta astounded at the number of good songs he had.
And I was at the concert at which he introduced this song - Long Island fisherman really were hurting:
[Link: www.imeem.com...]

Billy Joel's a good egg.

307 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:35:38pm

re: #290 The Shadow Do

Cato strolls in, takes a leak on Cheney's leg; tosses his daughter, and then offers no explanation beyond "Haliburton" and "Carlyle Group". Interesting guy this Cato. I can't figure out if he dislikes politicians from Wyoming or gays.

He also compared Cheney to Agnew, so maybe he dislikes Maryland as well.

308 NonNativeTexan  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:36:33pm

Really bummed. My son called and told me Wayman Tisdale
passed away.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
We went and saw him and Kirk Whalum in concert just over a
year ago. A wonderful man and father.
Kirk has some nice words for him.
[Link: blog.kirkwhalum.com...]

309 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:37:09pm

re: #73 Catttt

He loves his daughter and defended her staunchly in public. I don't care if he's a commie or from the moon - a dad who supports his daughter like that is ok in my book.

--Father who supports his gay daughter: good
--Father who supports equal rights for everybody's gay daughters (and sons): priceless

I'm not holding my breath for Cheney to do the latter.

310 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:37:19pm

re: #298 Dark_Falcon

fixed.

upding for the correction.

311 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:37:48pm

re: #276 Dark_Falcon

Fanatics are found in all places and persuasions. Monsters like Hill are thankfully rare, but even so such barbarians can do civilization great damage. Thank you for doing your part in exposing these villains.

I read Sheidler's and Bray's books with the same due diligence that I have devoted to reading Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, the Communist Manifesto, the Unibomber Manifesto, the Turner Diaries, Hunter, Serpent's Walk, the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and Might Is Right.

It is critically important to know one's enemies.

312 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:38:04pm

re: #282 pingjockey
Hey ping! Hope you're doing well tonight.
BTW, regarding Trendsurfer:
Karma: 11
Registered since: Dec 28, 2004 at 8:06 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 76
No. of links posted: 0

313 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:38:06pm

re: #236 formercorpsman

My long-lost sister! ;)

314 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:38:11pm

re: #307 FurryOldGuyJeans

He also compared Cheney to Agnew, so maybe he dislikes Maryland as well.

We have two Cato's here. Cato the Elder and plain Cato. Which one are we talking about?

315 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:38:24pm

Hey Late Night Lizards! It rained all day today in Near Iowa.

This is a drive-by post to say that I hope everyone is enjoying the FNDT. I'm deep into another book.

Have a great evening all!

316 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:38:57pm

re: #305 pingjockey

Way to dodge the issue.

Assume the hypothetical, then answer the question, please.

317 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:39:12pm

re: #304 JPL17

Ah, yes...if I would only ask people to unclench their fist...then everything will be sweetness and light....

Can I say I'm so Sorry? That was uncalled for..And I've had a few beers and have been cruising the Internet..
I am so sorry JPL17...
-the Hoopster...

318 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:39:33pm

re: #312 realwest
4 1/2 years and 76 posts, WOW! Slept out. Infection kicking my ass.

319 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:39:48pm

I'm going to get into trouble for saying but I'll say it anyway: I've never bought the idea of accepting a child's lifestyle or choices simply because "it makes them happy". Parents have to love their children, not necessarily accept what they do. If someone's son or daughter was drilling heroin into their veins, a parent should accept that? I realise that is an extreme case but my point remains that parents may love but not accept something that is morally or pragmatically wrong.
Secondly, no degree- honourary or otherwise- should be handed out unless a level of knowledge or experience has been proven. It's bad enough Mr. Obama got in with the lack of experience and character that he has, but a line should be drawn somewhere.
Thirdly, why is a university- ostensibly a Catholic one- hosting an anti-life president? He is the most pro-abortion, pro-infanticide president in American history. Who the hell greenlighted his coming and how fast do they want to be excommunicated?

320 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:39:53pm

Time for me to check out, I'll leave you with what I posted as my 9000th spinoff link downthread one.
Gull

321 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:40:02pm

re: #277 realwest

Done

322 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:40:06pm

re: #290 The Shadow Do

I thought the Shadow knew?

Carry on.

323 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:40:17pm

re: #292 reine.de.tout

it happens so often, we must be twins.
:D

324 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:40:20pm

re: #314 Walter L. Newton

We have two Cato's here. Cato the Elder and plain Cato. Which one are we talking about?

Elder.

325 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:40:53pm

re: #316 Cato the Elder
I don't care about your fucking question. Torture is torture. We should tell the world to piss off and do what we need to do to these vermin.

326 doppelganglander  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:40:55pm

Good night, lizards.

327 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:41:17pm

re: #309 ShanghaiEd

Refresh my memory- what rights are being trampled on again?

328 JPL17  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:41:29pm

re: #279 HoosierHoops

Sorry to drive this up on you..I'm sorry..
Ok. Colleges hand out degrees like candy..Personally I think I should have 6 already..I was just saying if you are a POTUS..Dem or GOP..You are going to roll seriously in the degrees..This is nothing new,,just saying..
Again..Sorry..didn't mean to pick a fight

OK, if you're going to be nice, I can be nice too...my point is that Obama's positions on abortion are radically out of whack with Catholic Church teachings and interests, and even with most Americans' beliefs, so it wouldn't have been a stretch for ND to withhold the honorary degree...Needless to say, I'm extremely disappointed in them....

329 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:41:34pm

Fire and Brimstone spill in aisle 319!

330 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:41:38pm

re: #308 NonNativeTexan

Really bummed. My son called and told me Wayman Tisdale
passed away.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
We went and saw him and Kirk Whalum in concert just over a
year ago. A wonderful man and father.
Kirk has some nice words for him.
[Link: blog.kirkwhalum.com...]

Wayman Tisdale - Never Gonna Give You Up

331 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:41:53pm

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

332 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:42:36pm

re: #326 doppelganglander


Bye, ganglander of the doppelist persuasion.

333 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:42:42pm

re: #319 Joan Not of Arc

I'm going to get into trouble for saying but I'll say it anyway: I've never bought the idea of accepting a child's lifestyle or choices simply because "it makes them happy". Parents have to love their children, not necessarily accept what they do. If someone's son or daughter was drilling heroin into their veins, a parent should accept that?

That is an incredibly offensive comparison.

334 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:43:03pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

Depends on whether you are drinking to forget or remember. Different music required.

335 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:43:19pm

re: #291 Dar ul Harbarian

I guess children are like a sexually transmitted tumor to him.

His quote about sex education did not bother me, but I'm a leftie..
"I've got two daughters -- 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16."

336 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:43:34pm

re: #289 Cato the Elder
Well if "the other side" is Al-Q or other Islamic Jihadists (the "enemy"), I'd say the American G.I. would be very fortunate indeed to receive only that "torture". Hell the enemy could make him read your comments which the American G.I. made possible for you to say so freely, you know?

337 NonNativeTexan  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:43:45pm

re: #330 Gus 802

Thanks for that Gus.

338 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:43:46pm

re: #334 FurryOldGuyJeans

Depends on whether you are drinking to forget or remember. Different music required.

Good point.
To remember.

339 Randall Gross  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:43:58pm

Timewarp: Hummingbird

340 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:43:58pm
341 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:44:05pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

342 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:44:14pm

re: #313 NY Nana

I'm tellin ya.

343 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:44:16pm

re: #281 nyc redneck

it's worse than i thought.
he said "punished w/ a baby" and "punished w/ an s.t.d."
like they are in the same category.
being pregnant and having a disease.
what a disconnected person.

That's an excellent point. He's disconnected. He doesn't see anything shocking about laughing about someone dying of kidney disease, for example. Just from a political perspective, most politicians would know damn good and well not to laugh at that. Another example - he said "Later, sweetie" to a woman reporter, then smirked (several men following him laughed). The woman was furious, naturally. It was so retro - I thought, "what planet is this guy from?"

344 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:45:19pm

re: #337 NonNativeTexan

Thanks for that Gus.

You're welcome. I came across the news this morning. He was a young man.

345 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:45:29pm

re: #336 realwest
Was that a heads up for me about 'trendsurfer'?

346 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:45:30pm

GMTA, Iron Fist!

347 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:45:32pm

re: #338 Dar ul Harbarian

Good point.
To remember.

Then I personally would go for something lively and/or upbeat. If it is to remember someone really close, then music you both enjoyed listening to.

348 fizzlogic  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:45:54pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian
Ned's Theme from The Life Aquatic. :)

349 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:45:55pm

re: #289 Cato the Elder

C'est la guerre.

350 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:46:08pm

Is it just me or does there seem to be something amiss with the reading comprehension level here tonight?

CO2 check in order? Or maybe N20?

351 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:46:22pm

re: #307 FurryOldGuyJeans

He also compared Cheney to Agnew, so maybe he dislikes Maryland as well.

WyoMaryHomoPhobia?

352 NonNativeTexan  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:46:34pm

re: #344 Gus 802

Yep, cancer.

353 avspatti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:47:08pm

re: #301 American Sabra

Like I said above, this is the 2nd most public man in our country. His life cannot be a secret. Lynne may not want have wanted to discuss it but she denied it. She certainly could have admitted it and said she'd rather not discuss it. That's not what she said.

From the quote, she didn't deny it. She simply stated that Mary had not confirmed it.

354 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:47:15pm

re: #336 realwest

Another superb dodge. Keep it up!

355 Syrah  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:47:33pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

I am afraid that I know more about this than I should.

356 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:47:43pm

re: #345 pingjockey
Why yes, yes it was my friend!

357 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:47:54pm

re: #335 avanti

His quote about sex education did not bother me, but I'm a leftie..
"I've got two daughters -- 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16."

Not to rehash, but a baby and an STD are not even in the same league. The problem with the comment isn't about sex education, it is about the callousness with which he dismisses human life as some sort of inconvenience.

358 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:47:56pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder
Comprehend fine. It's your logic I find offensive. The terrorists recognize no rules.

359 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:48:00pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Maybe it is a writing problem, not a reading problem.

360 American Sabra  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:48:08pm

Obama clearly stated he wants to educate kids about AIDS and teen pregnancy which includes discussions about morality, disease and abstinence. I don't hear anyone here cheering that, which was the meaning of his speech.

Children are a blessing, of course, and in no way, shape or form does Obama feel otherwise. He's been a family man a long time. The unfortunate reality is that poor young girls are indeed often "punished with a baby." Teens who who ruin their lives by having sex too early and irresponsibly, where there's no father around for the child, little in the way of supportive families, monetary or emotionally (which usually falls on the women in the family, mothers and grandmothers) who lose their education or ability to learn a skill and place an even greater burden on an already overburdened and dysfunctional welfare system. Such stresses lead to abused children and a bad cycle just keeps repeating itself.

361 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:48:40pm

re: #356 realwest
Thank you. Haven't seen any of its posts yet.

362 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:49:06pm

re: #322 Cato the Elder

I thought the Shadow knew?

Carry on.

I do.

363 avspatti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:49:11pm

re: #301 American Sabra

Like I said above, this is the 2nd most public man in our country. His life cannot be a secret. Lynne may not want have wanted to discuss it but she denied it. She certainly could have admitted it and said she'd rather not discuss it. That's not what she said.

In addition, this is not about HIS life; it is about his daughter's life. Children of politicians are supposed to be off limits, I think.

364 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:49:14pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Is it just me or does there seem to be something amiss with the reading comprehension level here tonight?

CO2 check in order? Or maybe N20?

I swear to god it's only German beer..Becks..probably brewed in Kansas

365 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:49:18pm

re: #335 avanti

His quote about sex education did not bother me, but I'm a leftie..
"I've got two daughters -- 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16."

I'm a "rightie" and I have no problem with sex education, either, and in fact, eagerly embraced the sex education program offered by my daughter's school.

It's the idea of a baby being "punishment" that bothered me, and the idea that a baby is just about equivalent, it seemed, in Obama's mind, as the "punishment" of getting an STD.

Because, you see, I don't think a child is "punishment" for anything, and even in very difficult circumstances, the birth of a child is a joyful event that can and should be welcomed. If the birth mother is unable to care for that child, because of being a young age or whatever reason, then there is a family who wants that baby and will provide a wonderful life.

366 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:49:37pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Is it just me or does there seem to be something amiss with the reading comprehension level here tonight?

CO2 check in order? Or maybe N20?

SMACK!

367 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:49:37pm

re: #289 Cato the Elder

Don't care.

368 JPL17  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:49:43pm

re: #317 HoosierHoops

Can I say I'm so Sorry? That was uncalled for..And I've had a few beers and have been cruising the Internet..
I am so sorry JPL17...
-the Hoopster...

OK, thanks, apologies accepted...tomorrow is another day...(actually, where I'm sitting it's already tomorrow, so I guess that would be, "Today is another day...").

369 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:50:10pm

re: #354 Cato the Elder
That wasn't a dodge - if that's the only "torture" that Al-Q or Islamic Jihadists put an American Soldier through then no it wouldn't be torture.

370 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:50:15pm

re: #359 FurryOldGuyJeans

C17H13ClN4

371 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:50:34pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Is it just me or does there seem to be something amiss with the reading comprehension level here tonight?

CO2 check in order? Or maybe N20?

There was a little chemist
But now he is no more
'Cause what he thought was H20
Was H2SO4

372 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:50:45pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

Finally, a question about something I have experience with.

If you're feeling a little mopey, you could go with Portishead.

If you're feeling a little ragged, maybe some Black Keys.

If I'm feeling nostalgic for my misspent youth, Sabbath always works.

Then, of course, there is the classic drinking alone song.

373 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:51:02pm

re: #311 Salamantis

I read Sheidler's and Bray's books with the same due diligence that I have devoted to reading Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, the Communist Manifesto, the Unibomber Manifesto, the Turner Diaries, Hunter, Serpent's Walk, the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and Might Is Right.

It is critically important to know one's enemies.

Very true.

374 avspatti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:51:35pm

re: #302 Iron Fist

Like I said, amazingly inarticulate. I can't help but want to believe that he didn't really mean what it sounded like he was saying. To my knowledge, I've never had a girlfriend abort a child of mine. I've known guys who have, and it was very traumatic for them. They had no input, were not even asked their opinion. In one particular case, the girl (she was really too young to call a woman) used what had happened very cruelly against the guy.

I don't know how I would react, but I am extremely glad that the issue has never come up. I can't imagine anyone wanting the decision to be made like that. One place that the pro-life people fail miserably is in that they don't support reasonable methods of birth control to prevent it ever being a question.

Catholics may not support reasonable methods of birth control in your opinion, but not every pro-life person is Catholic. There are other kinds of Christians and non-Christians who are pro-life.

375 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:51:51pm

re: #333 Charles

That is an incredibly offensive comparison.

Yes it is.

376 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:52:00pm

re: #362 The Shadow Do

I do.

So where, pray, did you take the idea that I have something against gays?

377 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:52:55pm

re: #327 Fenway_Nation

Refresh my memory- what rights are being trampled on again?

That would be: the right of gay people to have legally sanctioned unions and/or marriages.

378 Former Belgian  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:53:33pm

re: #309 ShanghaiEd

--Father who supports his gay daughter: good
--Father who supports equal rights for everybody's gay daughters (and sons): priceless

I'm not holding my breath for Cheney to do the latter.

It's not "tolerance" to approve individually of behavior one already approves of generally. It's just called "being consistent".

/Actually, I know quite a few ueber-libs who are less than consistent: all teary-eyed about "Palestinian residence rights", for instance, and up in arms when an Israeli Arab wants to buy a house in their community.

379 simonml  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:53:43pm

re: #360 American Sabra

Teens who who ruin their lives by having sex too early and irresponsibly, where there's no father around for the child, little in the way of supportive families, monetary or emotionally (which usually falls on the women in the family, mothers and grandmothers) who lose their education or ability to learn a skill and place an even greater burden on an already overburdened and dysfunctional welfare system. Such stresses lead to abused children and a bad cycle just keeps repeating itself.

Teenage pregnancy is unfortunate, but it does not cause child abuse or dysfunctional welfare system like you say. That is completely untrue.

Abortion, however, causes dead babies. That's a fact. At least in my eyes.

380 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:53:50pm

re: #377 ShanghaiEd
They can't have civil unions? I thought that was legal?

381 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:54:00pm

re: #374 avspatti

Catholics may not support reasonable methods of birth control in your opinion, but not every pro-life person is Catholic. There are other kinds of Christians and non-Christians who are pro-life.

Q: What are couples who depend upon withdrawal and/or the rhythem method to avoid pregnancy called?

A: Mommy and Daddy.

382 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:54:18pm

Hi lizards. Looks like I stumbled into a sex thread.

383 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:54:34pm

re: #377 ShanghaiEd

I hear the unions in Detroit are doing quite well... maybe they should move there...?

384 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:55:22pm

re: #383 windhorse

I have this Chrysler for sale....

385 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:55:30pm
386 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:56:03pm

re: #385 Iron Fist

oh.... punish me....

387 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:56:05pm

Chinese sex park is 'for the public good'

China is building its first sexually explicit theme park, and the giant genitalia sculptures and suggestive exhibits are getting many people hot and bothered in a country where talking about sex is still taboo.

Love Land is set to open in October in the south-western metropolis of Chongqing and will feature exhibitions about sexual history and how to use condoms properly. It will also host sex technique workshops, the China Daily newspaper said.

A picture of the main entrance shows a signboard bearing the park's name being straddled by a giant pair of women's legs topped by a red thong.

The park's manager, Lu Xiaoqing, said Love Land would help people "enjoy a harmonious sex life".

388 Syrah  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:56:37pm

re: #319 Joan Not of Arc

Extreme examples that will only alienate those that you want to persuade are . . . problematic.

The Socratic method is sometimes more useful then poking people with a sharp stick. It is very difficult and extremely time consuming, but you might find it more rewarding.

389 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:56:39pm

Oh, by the way: Don't forget, folks, that Alan Keyes is an invited speaker at the upcoming D.C. "tea party".

Along with Pamela Geller.

Anyone who attends knowing who the speakers are is objectively supporting lunacy.

390 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:57:15pm

re: #365 reine.de.tout

I'm a "rightie" and I have no problem with sex education, either, and in fact, eagerly embraced the sex education program offered by my daughter's school.

It's the idea of a baby being "punishment" that bothered me, and the idea that a baby is just about equivalent, it seemed, in Obama's mind, as the "punishment" of getting an STD.

Because, you see, I don't think a child is "punishment" for anything, and even in very difficult circumstances, the birth of a child is a joyful event that can and should be welcomed. If the birth mother is unable to care for that child, because of being a young age or whatever reason, then there is a family who wants that baby and will provide a wonderful life.

Again, it was a poor choice of words. I think a unwanted pregnancy is what many consider to be a punishment for immoral behavior. Abstinence teaching uses the fear of pregnancy and STD's as one of it's major selling points. A baby is never punishment, but a unwanted pregnancy sure could feel like one to a teenager.

391 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:57:20pm

re: #360 American Sabra

Obama clearly stated he wants to educate kids about AIDS and teen pregnancy which includes discussions about morality, disease and abstinence. I don't hear anyone here cheering that, which was the meaning of his speech.

Children are a blessing, of course, and in no way, shape or form does Obama feel otherwise. He's been a family man a long time. The unfortunate reality is that poor young girls are indeed often "punished with a baby." Teens who who ruin their lives by having sex too early and irresponsibly, where there's no father around for the child, little in the way of supportive families, monetary or emotionally (which usually falls on the women in the family, mothers and grandmothers) who lose their education or ability to learn a skill and place an even greater burden on an already overburdened and dysfunctional welfare system. Such stresses lead to abused children and a bad cycle just keeps repeating itself.

he was discussing a human life, his own grandchild and described it as a PUNISHMENT, if it was born at an inconvenient time.
there is no way to spin that as acceptable. the issues you have cited to describe
any hard ships or inconvenience involved in raising the child have nothing to do w/ this calloused statement from o, that is basically a window to his soul.
he is a stone cold narcissist.
his words are a window to his soul. he is a total narcissist.

392 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:57:22pm

re: #309 ShanghaiEd

--Father who supports his gay daughter: good
--Father who supports equal rights for everybody's gay daughters (and sons): priceless

I'm not holding my breath for Cheney to do the latter.

Actually, it would seem that Cheney does support equal rights for everybody's gay children:

re: #122 Thanos

Asked his position on the subject at a town hall meeting here, Cheney replied: "Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family is very familiar with. . . . With respect to the question of relationships, my general view is that freedom means freedom for everyone. People . . . ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to."

"I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family is very familiar with," Vice President Cheney said in response to a query about same-sex marriage.
Cheney went on to reiterate the position he first outlined in the 2000 campaign -- that same-sex marriage should be left to the states to decide. He noted, however, that Bush has endorsed a constitutional amendment preventing the states from recognizing such marriages.

"At this point . . . my own preference is as I've stated," Cheney said. "But the president makes basic policy for the administration. And he's made it."

393 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:57:32pm

re: #387 NJDhockeyfan
This in acountry where it is against the law to have more than one kid! Heh.

394 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:57:34pm

re: #389 Cato the Elder

Sie bist ein stick-in-the-mud....

395 Mich-again  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:57:35pm

re: #319 Joan Not of Arc

1) How can a parent have unconditional love for their child and yet not accept who they are? Those are mutually exclusive.
2) You say "no degree- honourary or otherwise- should be handed out unless a level of knowledge or experience has been proven. ... a line should be drawn somewhere." That whole point was incoherent.
3) "..how fast do they want to be excommunicated?" Jesus never hesitated to engage people who were considered less than holy. In fact, he went out of his way to engage the ones most marginalized. Your purity test is anti-Christian.

396 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:58:09pm

re: #319 Joan Not of Arc

What is "morally or pragmatically wrong" with being homosexual? I find it strange that you compare it to shooting heroin.

397 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:58:20pm

re: #387 NJDhockeyfan

Like that episode of Raymond when Marie was in sculpture class.

398 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:58:28pm

re: #389 Cato the Elder
That drives me crazy. What started as a grass roots thing has been taken over by the looneys.

399 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 9:59:12pm

re: #391 nyc redneck

he was discussing a human life, his own grandchild and described it as a PUNISHMENT, if it was born at an inconvenient time.
there is no way to spin that as acceptable. the issues you have cited to describe
any hard ships or inconvenience involved in raising the child have nothing to do w/ this calloused statement from o,
that is basically a window to his soul.
he is a stone cold narcissist.
his words are a window to his soul. he is a total narcissist.

Exactly.

400 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:00:18pm

re: #389 Cato the Elder

Would that be in the same league as voting for Obama, knowing he hung around with people who were willing to cull an expected 25 million Americans who might resist plans for change?

401 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:00:44pm

re: #278 formercorpsman
Hey my friend - I received your e-mail and responded!

402 Former Belgian  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:00:45pm

re: #388 Syrah

Extreme examples that will only alienate those that you want to persuade are . . . problematic.

The Socratic method is sometimes more useful then poking people with a sharp stick. It is very difficult and extremely time consuming, but you might find it more rewarding.

A classic example of the difference between "logic" and "argumentation". Logically she was just applying the "reductio ad absurdum". But people inevitable read an implied comparison into her argument.

403 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:01:26pm

re: #397 formercorpsman

Like that episode of Raymond when Marie was in sculpture class.

I missed that episode. Is this guy carrying her sculpture?

404 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:01:31pm

Junior Brown - Highway Patrol

Drinking music -- but don't drive.

405 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:01:37pm

re: #390 avanti

And an abortion sure as HELL feels like punishment to the baby.

406 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:01:41pm

OT: I just found a childhood picture of Nancy Pelousy™!

407 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:01:43pm

re: #398 pingjockey

That drives me crazy. What started as a grass roots thing has been taken over by the looneys.

Oh ping! If it doesn't stop raining here I'll need to figure out what a cubit is,,
Does Lowe's or Home Depot Sell Ark Kits?

408 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:01:44pm

re: #391 nyc redneck

he was discussing a human life, his own grandchild and described it as a PUNISHMENT, if it was born at an inconvenient time.
there is no way to spin that as acceptable. the issues you have cited to describe
any hard ships or inconvenience involved in raising the child have nothing to do w/ this calloused statement from o, that is basically a window to his soul.
he is a stone cold narcissist.
his words are a window to his soul. he is a total narcissist.

LOL,
well, i hope i got the point across in the last two duplicate sentences.
window to soul, total narcissist blaa, blaa, blaa,
sorry

409 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:02:07pm

re: #363 avspatti

In addition, this is not about HIS life; it is about his daughter's life. Children of politicians are supposed to be off limits, I think.

That was in a bygone day.

Someone prominent (Rush?) called Chelsea Clinton "the White House dog".

Then there was all the vile trash talked about the Bush twins.

It goes in all directions, and it sickens me no matter where it comes from.

Haven't seen much against the Obama girls yet, but then I don't frequent the sites that like to call BHO a "servant" and a "slave". Except when that stupid Kipling poem gets posted and reposted and rereposted here.

There's been plenty denigrating Michelle as mother though, and that, too, is beyond the pale, as far as I'm concerned.

410 Afrocity  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:02:08pm

Is Furry Jeans Guy here?

411 experiencedtraveller  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:02:10pm

Science tells us that life begins at conception.

Everything else is mumbo-jumbo.

412 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:02:57pm

re: #391 nyc redneck

he was discussing a human life, his own grandchild and described it as a PUNISHMENT, if it was born at an inconvenient time.
there is no way to spin that as acceptable. the issues you have cited to describe
any hard ships or inconvenience involved in raising the child have nothing to do w/ this calloused statement from o, that is basically a window to his soul.
he is a stone cold narcissist.
his words are a window to his soul. he is a total narcissist.

So you are suggesting that he should not teach his daughter about birth control so as to not interfere with the possible fertilization of his grandchild and that is the human life at stake ?

413 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:03:30pm

re: #389 Cato the Elder

Oh, by the way: Don't forget, folks, that Alan Keyes is an invited speaker at the upcoming D.C. "tea party".

Along with Pamela Geller.

Anyone who attends knowing who the speakers are is objectively supporting lunacy.

That statement I must agree with. We have to put a stop to the practice of giving platforms to these crazies. A Tea Party rally in DC should be used to showcase top GOP talent. The keynote speakers should be Mitt Romney and Sarah Palin, not Keyes and Geller. We need t organize properly GOP branded Tea Parties and use them to create support for sane solutions to the problems we face.

414 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:03:38pm

re: #410 Afrocity

Is Furry Jeans Guy here?

He was a few hours ago afro..
Hope today finds you well

415 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:04:00pm

re: #407 HoosierHoops
MwahahahaQ That bad? IIRC a cubit is from your elbow to your middle finger, or maybe it's the nose to your finger. The big box stores sell everything else, why not an Ark Kit!

416 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:04:32pm

re: #357 Dar ul Harbarian

Not to rehash, but a baby and an STD are not even in the same league. The problem with the comment isn't about sex education, it is about the callousness with which he dismisses human life as some sort of inconvenience.

What about a baby who is the product of rape or incest? "Blessing," or "punishment"? re: #392 reine.de.tout

417 Syrah  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:04:51pm

re: #402 Former Belgian

I think that the interwebs are Id (Freudian term) releasing, in that all too often people will feel free to do and say things to other people in the web-world that they would not be caught dead saying or doing in the real world.

418 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:04:54pm

re: #394 windhorse

Sie bist ein stick-in-the-mud....

Deutsch 101 schon nach der ersten Klasse aufgegeben, wie?

419 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:05:10pm

re: #333 Charles

Why?
Should the pursuit of vice excuse parents from their duties or feelings? I think not. I have seen parents excuse slipping grades because their kids are on a sports team (sports being more important than knowledge, I suppose). I've seen parents excuse alcohol abuse "as long as the kids are in a safe place". I know parents ignore their children shacking up with girl/boyfriends because they would rather not express an opinion about it. Maybe I'm missing a major clue, but I'm not seeing this as positive.
Even if parents do express an opposite opinion about a certain behaviour, that's not necessarily equal to outright hatred. Keyes may be an exception, however.
Just my thoughts.

420 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:05:17pm

re: #390 avanti

Again, it was a poor choice of words. I think a unwanted pregnancy is what many consider to be a punishment for immoral behavior. Abstinence teaching uses the fear of pregnancy and STD's as one of it's major selling points. A baby is never punishment, but a unwanted pregnancy sure could feel like one to a teenager.

Many people may think an unwanted pregnancy is "punishment" for immoral behavior, but it isn't, it is simply nature taking its course.

An unwanted pregnancy will NOT necessarily feel like punishment to a teen, however, if parents are supportive enough, and those supportive parents are ones who would never ever say anything along the lines of "punished with a baby".

Our daughter was pregnant at 15; aside from the morality of it, her behavior was incredibly stupid. However, any "immorality" was in the behavior leading to the pregnancy; the mere fact of being pregnant is not immoral.

421 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:05:44pm

re: #403 NJDhockeyfan

Where is my union representative?

422 Afrocity  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:06:06pm

re: #414 HoosierHoops

You too thanks Hoosier. If you are going to be in town next week some Chicago lizards are getting together. Maybe have some cocktails.

423 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:06:25pm

re: #377 ShanghaiEd

I'm dead-set against the whole notion of same-sex marriage because two guys or two women getting married is not the same no matter how much warm-fuzzy talk about 'equality' comes up. I mean if we're going to head down that avenue, might as well have states recognize bigamy or polygamy.

There's also the left's penchant for judicial theatrics. I figure it's only a matter of time before a homosexual couple approaches a Catholic church, Mormon or Orthrodox Jewish Temple- somewhere they know is opposed to same-sex marriage- and ask that they have some sort of ceremony for their same-sex marriage. Then that church or temple is taken to court in some sort of discrimination suit when the clergy or rabbis refuse.

And truth be told, I found it very insulting when some activists began comparing same-sex couples who couldn't marry to the Civil Rights protestors who had to face down the klan, fire hoses, police dogs and Bull Connor...

I never said anything about opposing civil unions.

424 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:06:39pm

re: #400 formercorpsman

No.

425 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:07:22pm

re: #416 ShanghaiEd

What about a baby who is the product of rape or incest? "Blessing," or "punishment"? re: #392 reine.de.tout

Not sure who you were addressing there, you had two of us in that post.
Any life is a blessing.
Period.

426 formercorpsman  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:07:33pm

re: #424 Cato the Elder

Of course not.

427 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:07:36pm

re: #289 Cato the Elder

Nobody ever cared. (except maybe McCain)
This issue was generated to unhorse a president who had the misfortune to be in power during a disaster tailor-made to make any president popular. The democrat response was to discredit every aspect of his presidency. The media was a willing accomplice for reasons I don't quite understand. Now the lies are starting to unravel. Again, I don't understand why the truth is being allowed to peek out, but it is.(Although just the barest, tiny bit.)

Please understand.
Nobody cares about interrogation techniques.
Nobody cares about Terry Schiavo.
Nobody cares about the Palestinians.
Nobody cares about Tibet.

They care about other things and they want you to care about things that will give them power. Your opinions are being manipulated for the benefit of others.

428 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:07:42pm

re: #412 avanti

So you are suggesting that he should not teach his daughter about birth control so as to not interfere with the possible fertilization of his grandchild and that is the human life at stake ?

he should educate his daughters. But he should also understand that pro-life people don't think about girls being "punished with a baby." We (for this is my view) see it as a question of not compounding the mistake of getting pregnant at the wrong time with the far greater mistake of ending an innocent life.

429 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:07:47pm

re: #409 Cato the Elder

There's been plenty denigrating Michelle as mother though, and that, too, is beyond the pale, as far as I'm concerned.

So you think that a parent(s) that give their children no birthday or Christmas gifts, and promise them a dog as soon as they live in the White House, and wait nearly the first deplorable days of Hussein's dictatorship to get one from Teddy Boy Kennedy, rather than the Pound they had said they would get the dog from to be OK?

430 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:07:50pm

There is one narrow circumstance in which I could support the public paying for abortions, and that is in the case of minor victims of incest, where the offending father refuses to pay.

About 50 miles from me, in the middle of the country, a 13 year old girl was repeatedly raped by her drunken fundamentalist father (her mother had long since left). It was discovered that she was pregnant when she was sent to her middle school's medical clinic for vomiting in class (it was morning sickness). Her father was arrested for incestuous child molestation, and she was removed from the home and appointed a child advocate. Her father refused to give her permission to have an abortion. claiming that the pregnancy was God's righteous retribution for 'their' sins. Even when she want to court with the child advocate and was granted the right to undergo the procedure, her father, from his jail cell awaiting trial, refused to pay for it.

A friernd of mine who lived in the area told me about the situation, and he and I split the procedure fee (the abortion doctor graciously agreed to perform the procedure for cost). I still consider it to be the most charitable and humanitarian donation I have ever made.

But what if my friend and I had not stepped up to the plate? I shudder to think how being forced to proceed with such a pregnancy and birth could have further scarred that child, perhaps beyond repair.

431 freetoken  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:07:52pm

re: #389 Cato the Elder

Oh, by the way: Don't forget, folks, that Alan Keyes is an invited speaker at the upcoming D.C. "tea party".

Keyes was a keynote speaker at an Indiana "tea party", at which his 'nirther rants were wildly cheered by the crowd in attendance, and also likewise at a Pittsburgh "tea party".

432 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:08:28pm

re: #415 pingjockey

MwahahahaQ That bad? IIRC a cubit is from your elbow to your middle finger, or maybe it's the nose to your finger. The big box stores sell everything else, why not an Ark Kit!

Worse than that..The other morning we had 70mph winds..I couldn't go down the road.in the morning..Tree's down everywhere on the road..Welcome to Indiana..
get over it

433 avspatti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:08:28pm

re: #395 Mich-again

1) How can a parent have unconditional love for their child and yet not accept who they are? Those are mutually exclusive.
2) You say "no degree- honourary or otherwise- should be handed out unless a level of knowledge or experience has been proven. ... a line should be drawn somewhere." That whole point was incoherent.
3) "..how fast do they want to be excommunicated?" Jesus never hesitated to engage people who were considered less than holy. In fact, he went out of his way to engage the ones most marginalized. Your purity test is anti-Christian.

Yes, Jesus did go out of his way to engage the ones most marginalized, but He did not white wash their sin. He called them to repentance . . . as in the case of the Samaritan woman at the well when, after calling her out on her sin, He said, "Go, and sin no more."

434 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:08:42pm

re: #398 pingjockey

That drives me crazy. What started as a grass roots thing has been taken over by the looneys.

Well I don't know about that ping. I don't know, for example, who all the other speakers are supposed to be, nor do I think for one minute that Pamela Gellers or Alan Keyes has taken over the grass roots thing at all.

435 nyc redneck  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:08:44pm

re: #412 avanti

So you are suggesting that he should not teach his daughter about birth control so as to not interfere with the possible fertilization of his grandchild and that is the human life at stake ?

no, are you?
i'm suggesting that he is a "stone cold narcissist" for describing his grandchild as a
PUNISHMENT and that such a bizarre disconnected statement is a"window to his soul."

436 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:08:51pm

re: #418 Cato the Elder

mit vielen gluck....

437 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:08:57pm

re: #402 Former Belgian

A classic example of the difference between "logic" and "argumentation". Logically she was just applying the "reductio ad absurdum". But people inevitable read an implied comparison into her argument.

My ex was a herion addict. People learned not to use herion in a joking manner around me - they switched to crack (e.g., "you're on crack!") after I made my point that herion is not funny. Having lived through night sweats, weight loss, money disappearing, small appliances going missing, etc. (I didn't know the signs of herion addition, but I surely do now), I find the use of herion in an argument that is not about drugs offensive in several different ways.

Comparing herion use, which destroys lives very quickly, to sexual orientation, which is as basic as breathing and eating, is also stupid.

438 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:09:47pm

re: #376 Cato the Elder

So where, pray, did you take the idea that I have something against gays?

That was entirely justified. Hypocrite Cheney acting all family values and we're-so-normal. Does the world good to know that sexual orientation is no respecter of political poses.


why did you feel the need to trot out his daughter's sexual orientation? It is cheap and has been done before. If you want to attack Cheney, please do so though you have yet to provide a rationale for your animosity.

Oh, and no I am not a Cheney family member or somesuch. I just would like an explanation for all the vitriol.

439 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:09:51pm

re: #420 reine.de.tout

Many people may think an unwanted pregnancy is "punishment" for immoral behavior, but it isn't, it is simply nature taking its course.

An unwanted pregnancy will NOT necessarily feel like punishment to a teen, however, if parents are supportive enough, and those supportive parents are ones who would never ever say anything along the lines of "punished with a baby".


Our daughter was pregnant at 15; aside from the morality of it, her behavior was incredibly stupid. However, any "immorality" was in the behavior leading to the pregnancy; the mere fact of being pregnant is not immoral.


I 100% agree. The problem is, some believe they should not give bother with STD prevention because STD's and even pregnancy are their best sales tool for abstinence training. BHO should have said burdened, not punished with a baby. Now that I wrote that, some might object to burdened too.

440 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:10:54pm

re: #425 reine.de.tout
Gonna disagree about a baby caused by rape/incest.

441 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:11:44pm

re: #410 Afrocity

Is Furry Jeans Guy here?

Nope. ;)

How are you this fine evening, beautiful lady? :)

442 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:12:02pm

re: #422 Afrocity

You too thanks Hoosier. If you are going to be in town next week some Chicago lizards are getting together. Maybe have some cocktails.

I'll see about getting my email address up here. Work permitting, I would be interested in attending.

443 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:12:26pm

re: #429 NY Nana

My bad: I meant to say 'nearly the first 100 days'....looks like I had better start convincing myself that I should go to sleep at a semi-reasonable hour, like that's ever going to happen.

444 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:12:29pm

re: #439 avanti

I 100% agree. The problem is, some believe they should not give bother with STD prevention because STD's and even pregnancy are their best sales tool for abstinence training. BHO should have said burdened, not punished with a baby. Now that I wrote that, some might object to burdened too.

Yep, you're right!
But honestly - had he left out the "pregnancy" part out altogether and just gone with the "STD" part - not much there to argue with.

I think it was a slip of the tongue that shined a light into how he really thinks. And it wasn't pretty.

445 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:12:36pm

re: #416 ShanghaiEd

What about a baby who is the product of rape or incest? "Blessing," or "punishment"? re: #392 reine.de.tout

Had a difficult time following you on that comment - where in that video (or elsewhere in his campaign speeches) did Obama talk about a baby who is the product of rape or incest? Serious question, but the only thing I've heard him say was in the videos put up by Killian Bundy and others and I didn't even know he'd said that.

446 Afrocity  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:12:50pm

re: #441 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am well handsome man. Just checking on you

447 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:12:53pm

re: #434 realwest
I wrote that badly. There are the grass roots folks out there, like me, who feel the gov't is totally out of control. However, the sane folks will be overshadowed by the Paulians, Keyes, or others who will be shown as the face of these protests.

448 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:12:58pm

re: #428 Dark_Falcon

he should educate his daughters. But he should also understand that pro-life people don't think about girls being "punished with a baby." We (for this is my view) see it as a question of not compounding the mistake of getting pregnant at the wrong time with the far greater mistake of ending an innocent life.

No problem with that, but he was not addressing abortion in the interview, it was about sex education/abstinence. Had he have been talking about aborting a baby instead of preventing a pregnancy, I'd be in agreement.

449 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:13:30pm

re: #437 Catttt

People are commonly on heroin for 10-20-30 years.
Speednotsomuch.

450 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:14:07pm

re: #432 HoosierHoops
Oh, just damn.

451 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:14:08pm

re: #392 reine.de.tout

True, Cheney gives lip service to equal rights for gay individuals. To my knowledge, he's always behaved in the opposite manner, legislatively. Seems like hypocrisy to me.

452 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:14:25pm

re: #440 pingjockey

Gonna disagree about a baby caused by rape/incest.

I understand.
Which is why I would not have any objections at all to any parent of any teen-age girl putting that girl on birth control pills.

Now I'll probably be excommunicated.

453 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:14:32pm

re: #444 reine.de.tout

Yep, you're right!
But honestly - had he left out the "pregnancy" part out altogether and just gone with the "STD" part - not much there to argue with.

I think it was a slip of the tongue that shined a light into how he really thinks. And it wasn't pretty.

I can't argue about what was in his mind, but I agree he choose the wrong word.

454 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:15:19pm

re: #430 Salamantis

There is one narrow circumstance in which I could support the public paying for abortions, and that is in the case of minor victims of incest, where the offending father refuses to pay.

About 50 miles from me, in the middle of the country, a 13 year old girl was repeatedly raped by her drunken fundamentalist father (her mother had long since left). It was discovered that she was pregnant when she was sent to her middle school's medical clinic for vomiting in class (it was morning sickness). Her father was arrested for incestuous child molestation, and she was removed from the home and appointed a child advocate. Her father refused to give her permission to have an abortion. claiming that the pregnancy was God's righteous retribution for 'their' sins. Even when she want to court with the child advocate and was granted the right to undergo the procedure, her father, from his jail cell awaiting trial, refused to pay for it.

A friernd of mine who lived in the area told me about the situation, and he and I split the procedure fee (the abortion doctor graciously agreed to perform the procedure for cost). I still consider it to be the most charitable and humanitarian donation I have ever made.

But what if my friend and I had not stepped up to the plate? I shudder to think how being forced to proceed with such a pregnancy and birth could have further scarred that child, perhaps beyond repair.

I must agree on that case. To have forced her to carry the child to term would have been destroying one innocent life to save another. Your actions in that case must be described as moral and just.

455 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:15:32pm

re: #446 Afrocity

I am well handsome man. Just checking on you

Do I pass muster? ;)

Checking you out as well. :)

456 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:16:29pm

re: #452 reine.de.tout
I can't comment about teenage girls. I have 3 boys. Wish they had reversible vasectomies! Get 'em fixed after puberty, then when they get married, unfix 'em!

457 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:16:56pm

re: #450 pingjockey

Oh, just damn.

Hey ping! Hope today finds you well

458 Afrocity  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:18:07pm

re: #442 Dark_Falcon

My nic has my inofr

459 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:18:12pm

re: #457 HoosierHoops
Depending on my ear, tomorrow is supposed to be 84 and sunny, so the yard work awaits!

460 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:18:16pm

re: #440 pingjockey

Gonna disagree about a baby caused by rape/incest.

I am against abortion. Abortion is killing a baby. The fact that this baby was conceived in a certain, particular manner does not change that.

I don't want to get too argumentative - this is my opinion, and I respect those of others. However, I do want to quote someone here.

Have you ever considered how really insulting it is to say to someone, "I think your mother should have been able to abort you."? It's like saying, "If I had my way, you'd be dead right now." And that is the reality with which I live every time someone says they are pro-choice or pro-life "except in cases of rape" because I absolutely would have been aborted if it had been legal in Michigan when I was an unborn child, and I can tell you that it hurts.

But I know that most people don't put a face to this issue -- abortion is just a concept -- with a quick cliche, they sweep it under the rug and forget about it.

I do hope that, as a child conceived in rape, I can help to put a face and a voice to this issue.

~Rebecca Kiessling

461 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:18:56pm

re: #452 reine.de.tout

I understand.
Which is why I would not have any objections at all to any parent of any teen-age girl putting that girl on birth control pills.

Now I'll probably be excommunicated.

A good friend of mine wanted to put her 16 year old daughter on the pill, but dad objected until they caught her in bed with her steady boy friend. She was lucky, and was put on the pill without getting pregnant. She's now 18, and engaged to the same guy and going off to collage.

462 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:19:32pm

re: #460 Catttt
I can respect that.

463 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:19:43pm

re: #380 pingjockey

To my knowledge, only three states allow civil unions. Go across the border to one of the 40+ states that don't, and you're out of luck.

464 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:20:06pm

re: #461 avanti

going off to collage..... what a waist of a good mind.... too bad she didn't consider college as an alternative.....

465 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:20:45pm

re: #463 ShanghaiEd
See there, I learned something today.

466 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:20:54pm

Some would characterize Cheney as a hypocrite because he has a gay daughter. Is this because he does not support gay marriage? Why should he?

467 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:21:03pm

(she won't write me no letter.... she won't even call me on the telephone...)

468 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:23:22pm

re: #464 windhorse

going off to collage..... what a waist of a good mind.... too bad she didn't consider college as an alternative.....

It's late, I'm 66 years old and can hide my own Easter eggs, so a little slack please.: )

469 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:23:30pm

re: #464 windhorse

going off to collage..... what a waist of a good mind.... too bad she didn't consider college as an alternative.....

Glass house, dude.

470 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:23:32pm

re: #458 Afrocity

My nic has my inofr

I'll keep my eye on it and see if I am able to attend.

471 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:24:10pm

re: #447 pingjockey

I wrote that badly. There are the grass roots folks out there, like me, who feel the gov't is totally out of control. However, the sane folks will be overshadowed by the Paulians, Keyes, or others who will be shown as the face of these protests.


Well ok then, but I have to ask who (whom?!) is it that's showing them as the face of these protests? So far I've heard it's Paulians (or Paulistas as I prefer to call them), Neo-Nazi's and now, apparently, fans of Pamela Gellers and/or Alan Keyes. And all of THAT assumes that the tea parties that have been held so far are in fact controlled by ANYONE - here in North Carolina we had 32 different tea parties on the same day and several LGFer's e-mailed me (because, of my own current, relative immobility) about the tea parties and NONE OF THEM reported any Neo-Nazi's, and only One Paulista T-shirt wearing guy.
I think a LOT of political opportunists are trying to "work" these tea parties - either by dismissing them as being led by so and so or by stating that they are in fact grassroots movements. And it's not an insignificant question, given that I STRONGLY SUSPECT the Tea Parties after April 15, 2010 when some of the Tax bites chew the hardest, will be exponentially larger and include what would otherwise be some strange political bedfellows indeed.

472 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:24:14pm

re: #451 ShanghaiEd

True, Cheney gives lip service to equal rights for gay individuals. To my knowledge, he's always behaved in the opposite manner, legislatively. Seems like hypocrisy to me.

Cheney's legislative experience was in the US House of Representatives from 1978 til about 1990, I think.

I don't recall that gay marriage was a big issue during those years.

He worked in the White House after that, and was vice-president of course, but none of those were legislative positions.

473 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:24:36pm

re: #461 avanti

A good friend of mine wanted to put her 16 year old daughter on the pill, but dad objected until they caught her in bed with her steady boy friend. She was lucky, and was put on the pill without getting pregnant. She's now 18, and engaged to the same guy and going off to collage.

re: #464 windhorse

going off to collage..... what a waist of a good mind.... too bad she didn't consider college as an alternative.....

PIYF, gents.

474 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:24:40pm

re: #449 swamprat

People are commonly on heroin for 10-20-30 years.
Speednotsomuch.

Speed kills, as we used to say. It's true that the average life span after one becomes a herion addict is 15 to 20 years. However, the fact that they are addicts, in withdrawal about half the time, and engaging in other risky behavior, factors in to early death. Most hard addicts are dead by 50.

My ex almost died twice in a year. The Baltimore paramedics are very good at reviving ODs. Also, I personally know people who contracted AIDS due to herion use. Baltimore has a huge herion problem, and very few people who live straight lives have any clue about it.

475 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:24:55pm
476 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:24:57pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

Joe Bonamassa-Tea For One

477 capitalist piglet  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:25:03pm

re: #465 pingjockey

See there, I learned something today.

The Washington state legislature recently passed a civil unions bill that is described as "everything but marriage".

478 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:25:14pm

re: #469 FurryOldGuyJeans

I Theroux a rock in your general direction....

479 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:25:34pm

re: #425 reine.de.tout

Not sure who you were addressing there, you had two of us in that post.
Any life is a blessing.
Period.

My mistake; apparently I accidentally added your tag to a different comment. Sorry.

My point is that I've never seen the moral consistency of those who support abortion only in the cases of rape or incest. If abortion is truly murder, then why should the unborn infant be penalized because of the sins of the father? Just doesn't make sense to me.

480 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:25:49pm

(in case anyone was wondering, "waist" was intentional)

481 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:25:56pm

If women who become pregnant as a result of rape were denied the optiion of abortion but instead were forced to carry the pregnancy to term against their will, it would have the effect of empowering rapist stalkers, whose obsessive fixation with their targets of desire could prompt them to rape without caring for personal consequences, so long as a pregnancy resulted, because they would then be henceforth and forever genetically tied to the victims of their sick sexual predations. I can foresee them engaging in such extraordinary measure as checking their targets' garbage to ascertain when they were in the fertile period in their menstrual cycle, so as to plan to perpetrate their rape during the most propitious time.

I can also foresee such twisted individuals subsequently abusing the court system to demand visitation rights as the natural father.

482 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:26:06pm

re: #466 The Shadow Do

Some would characterize Cheney as a hypocrite because he has a gay daughter. Is this because he does not support gay marriage? Why should he?

I'm not sure that he does not support gay marriage.

483 Throbert McGee  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:26:23pm

re: #21 Catttt

Are you saying being gay is a choice?

For bisexuals -- people who instinctively get horny for both women and men -- there is a definite element of choice. They can choose to have have sex with both women and men, or they can choose to live as heterosexuals, and enjoying sexual contact with the same sex only in fantasies, or they can choose to live as homosexuals, and enjoy sexual contact with the opposite sex only in fantasies.

But for people who aren't bisexual -- meaning either people, whether male or female, who feel a strong sexual attraction to men, and little or no sexual attraction to women; or people, whether male or female, who are strongly attracted to women, but not at all to men -- sexual orientation is not a matter of choice.

484 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:26:32pm

re: #480 windhorse

(in case anyone was wondering, "waist" was intentional)

I taught it mite have been.

485 Zimriel  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:26:36pm

re: #413 Dark_Falcon

That statement I must agree with. We have to put a stop to the practice of giving platforms to these crazies. A Tea Party rally in DC should be used to showcase top GOP talent. The keynote speakers should be Mitt Romney and Sarah Palin, not Keyes and Geller. We need t organize properly GOP branded Tea Parties and use them to create support for sane solutions to the problems we face.

What's been going on over here (Texas) is the Tea Parties' co-optation by political opportunists. Rick Perry doesn't care about taxes or spending; he's casting himself as a populist against Kay Bailey Hutchison.

486 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:26:40pm

re: #477 capitalist piglet

The Washington state legislature recently passed a civil unions bill that is described as "everything but marriage".

One of the very few things they do and have done I actually agree with. Legal protections for partners, not some poke in the eye by a judge.

487 capitalist piglet  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:26:41pm

re: #472 reine.de.tout

Cheney's legislative experience was in the US House of Representatives from 1978 til about 1990, I think.

I don't recall that gay marriage was a big issue during those years.

He worked in the White House after that, and was vice-president of course, but none of those were legislative positions.

Upding. I was looking that up, too.

For a minute there, I was starting to think this was "Talk Out of Your Ass About Dick Cheney" night. ; )

488 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:27:07pm

re: #389 Cato the Elder
Uh, did my #369 adequately address your question without dodging it?

489 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:27:58pm

re: #437 Catttt

{{{{{{ Catttt }}}}}}

490 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:28:24pm

( I wanted to say "waist" was international.... but at this rate.........)

491 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:28:30pm

re: #472 reine.de.tout

Cheney's legislative experience was in the US House of Representatives from 1978 til about 1990, I think.

I don't recall that gay marriage was a big issue during those years.

He worked in the White House after that, and was vice-president of course, but none of those were legislative positions.

Egads, facts getting in the way of a rant. We can't have that here! ;)

492 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:29:07pm

re: #479 ShanghaiEd

My mistake; apparently I accidentally added your tag to a different comment. Sorry.

My point is that I've never seen the moral consistency of those who support abortion only in the cases of rape or incest. If abortion is truly murder, then why should the unborn infant be penalized because of the sins of the father? Just doesn't make sense to me.

No, it does not make sense.
I agree with Cattt:
re: #460 Catttt

I am against abortion. Abortion is killing a baby. The fact that this baby was conceived in a certain, particular manner does not change that.

I don't want to get too argumentative - this is my opinion, and I respect those of others. However, I do want to quote someone here.

Have you ever considered how really insulting it is to say to someone, "I think your mother should have been able to abort you."? It's like saying, "If I had my way, you'd be dead right now." And that is the reality with which I live every time someone says they are pro-choice or pro-life "except in cases of rape" because I absolutely would have been aborted if it had been legal in Michigan when I was an unborn child, and I can tell you that it hurts.

But I know that most people don't put a face to this issue -- abortion is just a concept -- with a quick cliche, they sweep it under the rug and forget about it.

I do hope that, as a child conceived in rape, I can help to put a face and a voice to this issue.

~Rebecca Kiessling

493 zombie  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:29:23pm
Members of the Lambs of Christ organization, formerly known as “Victim Souls of the Unborn Christ-Child,” have been linked to several incidents of violence — most notably James Kopp, who murdered physician Barnett Slepian in 1998.

I just watched a few days ago the documentary film "Lake of Fire", a detailed look at the abortion wars of the 1990s, including James Kopp, Randall Terry, and the rest.

This film is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED no matter what side of the debate you are on. I went into it thinking, OK, this is definitely going to be pro-choice propaganda. Because the filmmakers are themselves obviously pro-choice. But boy oh boy, they do not pull any punches, and the pro-choice side comes off looking almost as crazy and as bad as the pro-life side. The film shows the extremists in action, ranting and raving and yes even then killing abortionists -- they interviewed one of the murderers just a short time before he did his deed.

But at the same time they let reasoned, principled and moral people on both sides argue their case, and some make very persuasive arguments. No matter what position you hold going into the film, you will do a lot of thinking afterwards.

Perhaps most devastating to the pro-choice position is a soul-wrenching segment where they actually follow a real abortion procedure being perfomed -- without any editing out the "unpleasant" parts. The vacuum tube goes in, the embryo is sucked out, etc.

And then...in order to "make sure the entire embryo have been successfully removed," as the doctor put it, to prevent infection or necrotic tissue being left behind, he squooshes out the bag of bloody parts into a tray, and reconstructs the entire tiny baby right in front of you, putting the head, arms, legs, etc together, to make sure it's all there. The camera zooms in -- yow, it's human.

Apparently this step is done in all abortions past two or three months gestation. But no one likes to talk about it.

And the final scene is perhaps the most powerful, and unexpected. They show a young woman who has agreed to be filmed as she goes in for an abortion. They show every single minute of what happens, the forms being filled out, the doctor interview, the "counselor" talking to her, etc. etc. And again you think -- OK, here's where they show the benefits of legal abortion, because this young woman is not emotionally prepared to have a baby. Propaganda time. She has the abortion, and then a short time afterward sits down for the final interview, says "I'm so glad it's over," and manages a weak smile, and says she's alright, repeatedly. You think the film's over when suddenly she breaks down and starts sobbing uncontrollably over what she has just done.

Very powerful.

494 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:30:25pm

re: #438 The Shadow Do

why did you feel the need to trot out his daughter's sexual orientation? It is cheap and has been done before. If you want to attack Cheney, please do so though you have yet to provide a rationale for your animosity.

Oh, and no I am not a Cheney family member or somesuch. I just would like an explanation for all the vitriol.

Erm, read the thread, much?

I didn't trot it out - it was brought up beforehand:

re: #38 FurryOldGuyJeans

When one has a parent who is a member of the "wrong" political party. See Cheney for another example.

This was FOGJ alleging - as far as I can comprehend him - that the hoo-hah over Cheney fille's sexual orientation was because he is a Republican.

I said that was a good thing, given the general Republican hypocrisy over "family values" and social conservatism. And in my next post I acknowledged that he and Lynne did the right thing once the story broke.

And since vitriol is the coin of the realm here when it comes to Democrats and Obama, I feel no need to exchange it for another specie when failing to pay the expected homage to Dick.

495 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:30:56pm

re: #483 Throbert McGee

My ex roomie and I always had the same conversation in re being bi. she would say "Bisexuals are people who can't make up their mind." Then, I'd say "Bisexuals double their chance of a date on Saturday night." :D

496 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:32:25pm

re: #481 Salamantis

If women who become pregnant as a result of rape were denied the optiion of abortion but instead were forced to carry the pregnancy to term against their will, it would have the effect of empowering rapist stalkers, whose obsessive fixation with their targets of desire could prompt them to rape without caring for personal consequences, so long as a pregnancy resulted, because they would then be henceforth and forever genetically tied to the victims of their sick sexual predations. I can foresee them engaging in such extraordinary measure as checking their targets' garbage to ascertain when they were in the fertile period in their menstrual cycle, so as to plan to perpetrate their rape during the most propitious time.

I can also foresee such twisted individuals subsequently abusing the court system to demand visitation rights as the natural father.

Law & Order: SVU had an episode on just such a theme a couple years back.

497 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:32:33pm

re: #477 capitalist piglet
Now THAT raises a very significant question. If say Washington State allows gay civil unions (which would be a contract between two gay people) wouldn't other states have to recognize that "contract" under the Constitution and the rule of law that State A must recognize contracts that are valid in State B?

498 Racer X  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:32:49pm

re: #476 Racer X

Joe Bonamassa-Tea For One

Don't miss this Zeppelin cover. This dude Rocks!

499 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:33:09pm

And while we're on the topic.....sort of....what the hell is a homosexual male- someone who by definition finds woman unattractive and off-putting, no matter how plain or beautiful- doing judging a women's beauty pageant? Wouldn't a lesbian be more appropraite?

/And this Perez Hilton seems like an insufferable little shit regardless of his sexual preference.

500 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:33:25pm

re: #429 NY Nana

[...] Hussein's dictatorship [...]

GAZE

501 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:33:46pm

re: #487 capitalist piglet

Upding. I was looking that up, too.

For a minute there, I was starting to think this was "Talk Out of Your Ass About Dick Cheney" night. ; )

Is that sorta like "talk like a pirate" night?

502 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:34:25pm

Hey there! I'm not going back up thread to get caught up with what I missed. We just had a power outage!

503 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:34:30pm

re: #494 Cato the Elder

You sure got that wrong, I alleged nothing. I stated it flat out.

504 avanti  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:34:57pm

OK, getting late, time for the rack, night all.

505 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:35:02pm

re: #488 realwest

Uh, did my #369 adequately address your question without dodging it?

Clear as a bell. I updinged you, my friend.

506 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:35:19pm

re: #493 zombie

It was a cringe-fest just going through the description....

507 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:35:56pm

re: #503 FurryOldGuyJeans

You sure got that wrong, I alleged nothing. I stated it flat out.

A statement can still be an allegation if the truth of the matter is in doubt.

508 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:36:15pm

re: #493 zombie

A friend of mine once, out of the blue, told me she had had an abortion years earlier. I was stunned for a moment, then tried to think of what to say. She blurted out, "You hate me!" - her face just crumpled. I took a deep breath, and thank God, said the right thing: "That must have been very hard for you." Then we talked.

509 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:36:37pm

-977

510 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:36:53pm

oh, sorry.....-978

511 njdhockeyfan  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:37:18pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

Johnny Cash

512 Desert Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:37:49pm

re: #510 windhorse

oh, sorry.....-978

I'll give you -1000, but that is my final offer.....what I am bidding on, btw?

513 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:38:00pm
514 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:38:08pm

re: #507 Cato the Elder

Oh, you want to play "Parse that Sentence".

No thanks, I pass. You can play with yourself.

515 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:38:28pm

cognisance.

516 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:38:38pm

re: #494 Cato the Elder

Why are you so fucking bitter?

517 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:39:16pm

re: #460 Catttt

I respect your position on that wholeheartedly; it's a completely honest one.

What disturbs me is that the vast majority of "pro-life" politicians say that abortion is wrong "except in the case of rape or incest, of course." The "of course" part gives me the creeps. It tells me their position is strategic re: vote-getting, and not the product of any deep soul-searching. Sorry, but this is a very sore point with me. I respect people on both sides whose opinions are sincere and honest. To me, the strategic one is neither.

518 Desert Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:39:26pm

re: #513 Iron Fist

The gay marriage thing is a red herring. The Democrat's position on gay marriage is virtually indistinguishable from the Republicans. Neither Party supports gay marriage. Indeed, opposition to gay marriage may be the social issue that brings together the largest percentage of the population. While I don't see the Marriage Amendment to the Constitution happening (it is beastly hard to amend the Constitution, as it should be), I think you'll eventually see all or nearly all of the States adopt some form of legislative and/or Constitutional (State Constitution) prohibition on the issue. After all, California did that not once but twice. If you can't get gay marriage past the opposition of the people in California you can pretty much hang it up in most of the rest of the Country.

Unless you take it to the courts and have the State Supreme Courts over rule the people and then install it

519 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:39:35pm

re: #514 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ditto, FOGJ. Ditto.

520 experiencedtraveller  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:39:41pm

re: #493 zombie

Dear zombie,

Scientifically life begins at conception.

Right?!?

521 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:39:57pm

re: #499 Fenway_Nation

And while we're on the topic.....sort of....what the hell is a homosexual male- someone who by definition finds woman unattractive and off-putting, no matter how plain or beautiful- doing judging a women's beauty pageant? Wouldn't a lesbian be more appropraite?

/And this Perez Hilton seems like an insufferable little shit regardless of his sexual preference.

He's a gossip-spreading, intolerant, ass. He clearly thought he had a right to the answer he wanted to hear when he asked him now famous question of Carrie Prejean. She told him something he didn't want to hear and he went batshit. Spoiled little bitch would seem to be a good way to describe him.

522 Zimriel  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:40:12pm

re: #479 ShanghaiEd

My mistake; apparently I accidentally added your tag to a different comment. Sorry.

My point is that I've never seen the moral consistency of those who support abortion only in the cases of rape or incest. If abortion is truly murder, then why should the unborn infant be penalized because of the sins of the father? Just doesn't make sense to me.


Is this one of those serious questions, on how you have "never seen" this moral consistency; or is it one of those passive-aggressive "but whyyyy" questions disguising an attack on moderate pro-lifers' moral consistency?

Assuming it is a serious question: Salamantis just gave you a very good reason why the unborn infant should bear a penalty (however unearned) for the sins of its father: society's need to remove an incentive for rape. The infants are unavoidable casualties of this demand of civilisation.

But these reasons have been available for decades now. If you "can't see" why serious people believe that this exception exists, then IMO you need to squint harder.

523 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:40:15pm

re: #516 Catttt

Why are you so fucking bitter?

Your interpretation. I'm fine.

524 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:40:38pm

re: #482 reine.de.tout

I'm not sure that he does not support gay marriage.

Nor I, so I still wonder at the hypocrite charge. This was supposed to be a big stink advanced by the Dems. It keeps coming up even by a couple of folks on this thread. What is that about?

525 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:40:41pm

re: #481 Salamantis
Hi Sal - that was an interesting and thought provoking comment from you - as usual!
But I'm just curious here: in your scenario of the Stalker-Rapist, wouldn't said rapist who asks for visitation rights also be held liable for child support?

And I've actually never heard of a "stalker-rapist" though I'm sure that there are some truly bizarre, sick mofos who would be; but iirc, and no I don't have a link, rape is a crime of violence more often than it is "sexual" (and that's assuming those whatever they are called date rape pills are to enable rape for sexual pleasure) but regardless, if a a woman were to be raped, I'd fully support her right to an abortion should she want one, and not just in the case of incest.
FWLIW.

526 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:41:46pm

re: #519 Cato the Elder

Any more grade school taunts you want to throw my way before you GAZE me?

Better yet, just GAZE me and get it over with since I am not worthy of all your wit.

527 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:41:50pm

re: #521 Dark_Falcon

He's a gossip-spreading, intolerant, ass. He clearly thought he had a right to the answer he wanted to hear when he asked him now famous question of Carrie Prejean. She told him something he didn't want to hear and he went batshit. Spoiled little bitch would seem to be a good way to describe him.

And there I must agree with you, wholeheartedly. He asked her a question. She gave him an honest answer.

"Wrong answer, bitch!"

He gives intolerance a bad name.

528 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:42:41pm

re: #495 Catttt

My ex roomie and I always had the same conversation in re being bi. she would say "Bisexuals are people who can't make up their mind." Then, I'd say "Bisexuals double their chance of a date on Saturday night." :D


"I'm as confused as a bisexual at an orgy..."

-Kids in The Hall

529 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:42:49pm

re: #524 The Shadow Do

Nor I, so I still wonder at the hypocrite charge. This was supposed to be a big stink advanced by the Dems. It keeps coming up even by a couple of folks on this thread. What is that about?

Not sure.
Part of it is, I think, simply the way we tend to communicate here, in short bursts rather than a longer essay form, which often leads to misunderstandings.

530 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:42:52pm

re: #526 FurryOldGuyJeans

Any more grade school taunts you want to throw my way before you GAZE me?

Better yet, just GAZE me and get it over with since I am not worthy of all your wit.

.

531 Syrah  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:44:14pm

re: #331 Dar ul Harbarian

What is the best music to listen to when drinking alone?

The more I think about this question, the more I am inclined to say that most music will work well for drinking alone, with the notable exception of anything by Bobby Vinton or anything with "Goth" associated with it.

The companion question that could be asked with yours is what music is good to listen to the next morning when you are recovering from a night of drinking alone?

532 Zimriel  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:44:20pm

re: #516 Catttt

(to Cato) Why are you so fucking bitter?

He rightly GAZEd a comment on "Hussein's dictatorship". No-one gets to compare Barack Obama to Saddam Hussein at this stage. Not even Mandy.

And even if he's bitter, you're the one who dropped the F bomb. Project much?

533 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:45:28pm

re: #481 Salamantis

If women who become pregnant as a result of rape were denied the optiion of abortion but instead were forced to carry the pregnancy to term against their will, it would have the effect of empowering rapist stalkers, whose obsessive fixation with their targets of desire could prompt them to rape without caring for personal consequences, so long as a pregnancy resulted, because they would then be henceforth and forever genetically tied to the victims of their sick sexual predations. I can foresee them engaging in such extraordinary measure as checking their targets' garbage to ascertain when they were in the fertile period in their menstrual cycle, so as to plan to perpetrate their rape during the most propitious time.

I can also foresee such twisted individuals subsequently abusing the court system to demand visitation rights as the natural father.

I can certainly see that scenario happening. What I can't see is why it would morally justify the "murder" of a child, in pro-life parlance.

534 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:45:53pm

re: #513 Iron Fist

The gay marriage thing is a red herring. The Democrat's position on gay marriage is virtually indistinguishable from the Republicans. Neither Party supports gay marriage. Indeed, opposition to gay marriage may be the social issue that brings together the largest percentage of the population. While I don't see the Marriage Amendment to the Constitution happening (it is beastly hard to amend the Constitution, as it should be), I think you'll eventually see all or nearly all of the States adopt some form of legislative and/or Constitutional (State Constitution) prohibition on the issue. After all, California did that not once but twice. If you can't get gay marriage past the opposition of the people in California you can pretty much hang it up in most of the rest of the Country.

Do you think there will be some wide-ranging prohibitions on this?
I'm not so sure.

I'm actually at the point where I wonder if the STATE should get out of the "marriage" business, and into ONLY the business of "civil unions", leaving "marriages" to religious institutions.

535 zombie  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:46:25pm

re: #520 experiencedtraveller

Dear zombie,

Scientifically life begins at conception.

Right?!?

How should I know?

I'm neither a doctor nor a biologist. I could render an opinion, but it would be nothing more than that -- some random person's random opinion.

I am one of the few people to reign in my hubris in thinking I know what the hell I'm talking about on this issue. When does life begin? When does "ensoulment" happen? Is "every sperm precious," as Michael Palin once sang? Since we now have the technology to clone people from their fingernail clippings, is every fingernail as precious as every sperm, as every fetus, as every child?

In all cases, I fully admit: I just don't know.

An abortion agnostic is a rare bird indeed. But you're lookin' at one.

536 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:47:29pm

re: #493 zombie

What's your opinion on creating a social support system that would prevent these procedures as difficult as they may be? Loosening adoption laws would help to that end. There would have to be a support mechanism available during the pregnancy to allow it to come to full term and then be available for adoption after birth. That would have to mean financial support to a great extent.

537 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:47:31pm

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Humans are at least as important as turtle eggs.
I do not blame those who take the option that is legally theirs to choose; I feel that they have been misled, and, often, the pressures are too great to bear. My heart goes out to them. I weep.
When Newt Gingrich suggested orphanages as an option to house those that would otherwise be......not allowed to come to fruition, he was laughed at. Laughter, or not, society should offer a reprieve for the unborn and the potential mother. We need less laughter, less admonitions, and more help.

This issue deserves more than political bandying.

538 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:48:23pm

re: #534 reine.de.tout

That idea IMO has merit.

539 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:49:06pm

re: #517 ShanghaiEd

I respect your position on that wholeheartedly; it's a completely honest one.

What disturbs me is that the vast majority of "pro-life" politicians say that abortion is wrong "except in the case of rape or incest, of course." The "of course" part gives me the creeps. It tells me their position is strategic re: vote-getting, and not the product of any deep soul-searching. Sorry, but this is a very sore point with me. I respect people on both sides whose opinions are sincere and honest. To me, the strategic one is neither.

I agree with that, and I'm sure many politicans are not sincere on the subject. As to regular people - when people make the exceptions, I think many really don't understand the reality of what they are saying - that murder of person A is ok if person B did such and such. They are not really thinking of the baby as a person, if the actions of another person condemn the child to death.

They obviously are not thinking about the baby, whom they are condemning to death because of circumstances well beyond their control. Given that abortion is murder, which is the premise, one can then compare it with actual situational murder, which would sound horrific to them. It's either murder or not, to me.

I really think people often view it in the abstract. I don't understand that, but it is common. That flick zombie mentioned would do a lot of good in that department - it would be real.

540 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:50:23pm

re: #522 Zimriel

Is this one of those serious questions, on how you have "never seen" this moral consistency; or is it one of those passive-aggressive "but whyyyy" questions disguising an attack on moderate pro-lifers' moral consistency?

Assuming it is a serious question: Salamantis just gave you a very good reason why the unborn infant should bear a penalty (however unearned) for the sins of its father: society's need to remove an incentive for rape. The infants are unavoidable casualties of this demand of civilisation.

But these reasons have been available for decades now. If you "can't see" why serious people believe that this exception exists, then IMO you need to squint harder.

Zimriel: I've been squinting at this issue for decades now, and I'm as serious about it as anybody can be. But your concept of "unavoidable casualties" demanded somehow by civilization in very narrow cases is just a cop-out, to me. The whole issue is far more complex than that, and pretending it's cut-and-dried is, in my opinion, an instance of willful blindness.

541 swamprat  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:51:29pm

Good night all. Please go lightly.

Here there be dragons.

542 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:51:39pm

re: #533 ShanghaiEd

I can certainly see that scenario happening. What I can't see is why it would morally justify the "murder" of a child, in pro-life parlance.

re: #522 Zimriel


Assuming it is a serious question: Salamantis just gave you a very good reason why the unborn infant should bear a penalty (however unearned) for the sins of its father: society's need to remove an incentive for rape. The infants are unavoidable casualties of this demand of civilization.

But these reasons have been available for decades now. If you "can't see" why serious people believe that this exception exists, then IMO you need to squint harder.

543 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:51:58pm

We have increased rates of out of wedlock births because the financial difficulties of such a predicament are now gone. Government will be your daddy. Government took the need for personal responsibility away- and it extends to the bedroom.

544 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:52:14pm

re: #532 Zimriel

He rightly GAZEd a comment on "Hussein's dictatorship". No-one gets to compare Barack Obama to Saddam Hussein at this stage. Not even Mandy.

And even if he's bitter, you're the one who dropped the F bomb. Project much?

Thank you. I thought I had wandered into freerepublic.com by mistake.

It was NY Nana, though, who went off about "Hussein" and "dictatorship". I've known her since I before I wore the toga virilis, but I guess you don't really know anyone until all the buttons are pushed. With Ploome I saw it coming...

545 zombie  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:52:17pm

re: #536 Gus 802

What's your opinion on creating a social support system that would prevent these procedures as difficult as they may be? Loosening adoption laws would help to that end. There would have to be a support mechanism available during the pregnancy to allow it to come to full term and then be available for adoption after birth. That would have to mean financial support to a great extent.

I have a lot of opinions, most of them not suitable for public consumption. They may seem contradictory to others, but to me they form a coherent belief system.

A roundabout way of saying: I opt out of answering that question.

546 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:52:36pm

re: #543 Sharmuta

puttin' it to the man man.......

547 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:52:38pm

re: #517 ShanghaiEd
Huh. I would certainly allow abortions where a woman had been raped - don't really see what the "of course" means.

548 solomonpanting  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:52:53pm

re: #513 Iron Fist

Have you been paying attention to the Northeastern states recently? And now New York is considering same-sex marriage. I find it only a matter of time until most states pass laws allowing same-sex mariage.

549 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:53:30pm

re: #537 swamprat

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Humans are at least as important as turtle eggs.
I do not blame those who take the option that is legally theirs to choose; I feel that they have been misled, and, often, the pressures are too great to bear. My heart goes out to them. I weep.
When Newt Gingrich suggested orphanages as an option to house those that would otherwise be......not allowed to come to fruition, he was laughed at. Laughter, or not, society should offer a reprieve for the unborn and the potential mother. We need less laughter, less admonitions, and more help.

This issue deserves more than political bandying.

Amen, and amen! "Less admonitions, and more help." Wish I could upding you a ton more for that.

550 Desert Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:53:39pm

re: #533 ShanghaiEd

I can certainly see that scenario happening. What I can't see is why it would morally justify the "murder" of a child, in pro-life parlance.

Why not let the child be born and ask them if they want to still be alive? My guess is they would vote YES. But, since that little person is just a choice or burden or mass of cells, it's perfectly ok to kill it in this modern world we live in.

551 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:54:15pm

re: #536 Gus 802

What's your opinion on creating a social support system that would prevent these procedures as difficult as they may be? Loosening adoption laws would help to that end. There would have to be a support mechanism available during the pregnancy to allow it to come to full term and then be available for adoption after birth. That would have to mean financial support to a great extent.

These systems are available.
There are agencies (Catholic Charities the one I'm most familiar with) offer counseling and support services to expectant mothers. This includes intervening with the school when necessary, if the expectant mother is still in HS.

Most states have a provision that provides Medicaid for expectant mothers without insurance.

There are more couples waiting for babies to adopt than there are babies available.

552 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:54:17pm

re: #525 realwest

Hi Sal - that was an interesting and thought provoking comment from you - as usual!
But I'm just curious here: in your scenario of the Stalker-Rapist, wouldn't said rapist who asks for visitation rights also be held liable for child support?

What are they gonna do to him if he doesn't pay; imprison him? He would already be imprisoned for rape. But he could petition the court to bring his natural child to prison for visitation rights. He could also, as the natural parent, oppose adoption, and indeed petition that the child be remanded to relatives, to be further remanded to his parental care when he finishes his sentence.

And I've actually never heard of a "stalker-rapist" though I'm sure that there are some truly bizarre, sick mofos who would be; but iirc, and no I don't have a link, rape is a crime of violence more often than it is "sexual" (and that's assuming those whatever they are called date rape pills are to enable rape for sexual pleasure) but regardless, if a a woman were to be raped, I'd fully support her right to an abortion should she want one, and not just in the case of incest.
FWLIW.

Forcing one's target to bear your child against her will IS all about having ongoing power over one's victim, and about abusing the machinery of the state in order to exert it. Including the power of coerced genetic connection.

553 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:55:00pm

re: #532 Zimriel

He rightly GAZEd a comment on "Hussein's dictatorship". No-one gets to compare Barack Obama to Saddam Hussein at this stage. Not even Mandy.

And even if he's bitter, you're the one who dropped the F bomb. Project much?

I hardly ever cuss. I know Cato, and I like him. You, I don't know and I don't like. I've been trying to snap him out of it. You, on the other hand, make an ad hominem attack on me for no reason except general cussedness.

554 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:55:46pm

re: #485 Zimriel
Indeed Zim! See my #471. LOTS of folks are trying to ride the Tea Parties because, I am convinced, they are or have been or most of them are or have been truly grassroots - just regular folks pissed off about taxes and the economy.

555 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:56:00pm

re: #534 reine.de.tout

Do you think there will be some wide-ranging prohibitions on this?
I'm not so sure.

I'm actually at the point where I wonder if the STATE should get out of the "marriage" business, and into ONLY the business of "civil unions", leaving "marriages" to religious institutions.

Seems reasonable until you are forced to recognize the 1st Church of the Gay or whatever denomination decides to marry whomever, whatever, howsomemanyever...

556 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:56:02pm

re: #533 ShanghaiEd

I can certainly see that scenario happening. What I can't see is why it would morally justify the "murder" of a child, in pro-life parlance.

So you'd rather pass blanket abortion prohibitions that would serve as a powerful incentive for stalker rape?

557 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:56:09pm

re: #551 reine.de.tout

These systems are available.
There are agencies (Catholic Charities the one I'm most familiar with) offer counseling and support services to expectant mothers. This includes intervening with the school when necessary, if the expectant mother is still in HS.

Most states have a provision that provides Medicaid for expectant mothers without insurance.

There are more couples waiting for babies to adopt than there are babies available.

Good examples. There are alternatives. As a society we could expand on those.

558 zombie  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:56:32pm

re: #543 Sharmuta

We have increased rates of out of wedlock births because the financial difficulties of such a predicament are now gone. Government will be your daddy. Government took the need for personal responsibility away- and it extends to the bedroom.

I tend to agree.

Make something easy to do, and people will do it more often. That includes, on one hand, having an unsupported baby, and, on the other hand, getting high on street drugs. The welfare system encourages illegitimacy, and ending the "drug war" will increase drug usage.

559 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:56:53pm

re: #544 Cato the Elder

Thank you. I thought I had wandered into freerepublic.com by mistake.

It was NY Nana, though, who went off about "Hussein" and "dictatorship". I've known her since I before I wore the toga virilis, but I guess you don't really know anyone until all the buttons are pushed. With Ploome I saw it coming...

That was still sad to watch. Watching a long-time member get herself banned for supporting a mass murderer. I did my best to talk her down from that position but could not (as did you, as I remember). Hopefully, NY Nana is able to understand the error in her post. Obama is not Saddam and it is foolish to suggest that he is.

560 pingjockey  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:57:07pm

G'night folks. Fight nice!

561 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:57:24pm

re: #274 Thanos

good point Thanos.

562 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:58:10pm

re: #522 Zimriel

The infants are unavoidable casualties of this demand of civilisation.

Sounds like eugenics.

563 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:58:14pm

re: #65 Truck Monkey

Indeed!

564 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:58:52pm
565 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:59:23pm

re: #26 MJ

Bravo!

566 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 10:59:51pm

re: #502 pingjockey
Hey ping - did you see my #471 before the power probems?

567 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:00:27pm

re: #558 zombie

No- subsidize it and you will have more of it. Tax it and you will have less.

This has nothing to do with drugs- but like drugs, abortion does have something to do with a person's right to their own anatomy.

568 Van Helsing  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:01:01pm

re: #534 reine.de.tout

Do you think there will be some wide-ranging prohibitions on this?
I'm not so sure.

I'm actually at the point where I wonder if the STATE should get out of the "marriage" business, and into ONLY the business of "civil unions", leaving "marriages" to religious institutions.

I've been saying that for years. the state has no business in any part of it except the civil law aspects in order to protect society from the negative fallout.

Of course, the state now has it's nose in so much that maybe it's pointless.

Despair is a sin, I hear.

569 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:01:02pm

re: #562 Catttt

Sounds like eugenics.

re: #562 Catttt

Sounds like eugenics.

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a big proponent of Eugenics.

570 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:01:18pm

Pastoral Counseling

Her weeping is a tiny, tinny sound
Crawling from the fallen receiver.
Precautions have failed us. We have
A Situation to address. She
Came to me for consolation
A troubled teen unable to
Handle her desires: nor I mine.
Her flesh was firm and ripe
And mine weak.
I have betrayed faith, flock, family
And the trust they and this girlchild
Placed in me. Unable to
Bear this revelation spreading further
I choose my sole recourse, to betray anew
And to embrace iniquity and
Lie with abomination.
I lift the receiver and speak to her
In practiced tones, both balming and commanding.
Go to the clinic, I tell her; I'll pay for it.
And shiver as ghost nails
Rake my back like a lover's clutches:
A dead hare crossing the grave of my convictions.


The Fundamentals

"Abortion is murder!", the witch-burners bray
As they kneel on their hard wooden floors to pray
That all the damned heathens will see the light
And be saved from Hell's bondage by bonfire bright
And Cain's crosses glowing in southern night.

Our mothers and sisters and daughters and wives
Are reduced to receptacles, their whole lives
Possessed by one purpose: to nurture cells
More worthy of life, for they might be male
Like Jesus - thus wombs are warped into jails.

Poor Eve is the pattern primordial, damned
By gender, as race consigned sons of Ham
To servitude, their God-burned cross their coal
Complexion, and if one should flee their fold
Love says, "Scourge the body to save the soul."

If knowledge of ethics is primal sin
Then 'teaching all nations' commits again
The error, but teach they must, for their bane
Is difference; they're driven to all souls train
For Heaven, where all seraphs sing the same.

571 Desert Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:01:27pm

re: #564 Iron Fist

But that is what the amendments to the State Constitutions do. That is what happened in California. When the people of the State Amend their Constitution, that takes the issue out of the State Supreme Court's hands. Things would get rather dicey if the State Supreme Courts started ruling that the Constitution was unconstitutional.

The only thing that might could happen is if the US Supreme Court ruled that there was somehow a right to gay marriage in the Federal Constitution, and that that trumped the State Constitutional amendments. That gets pretty hairy real quick too. I think that the Current Court would simply leave it alone, and let the States determine what they will and will not tolerate.

It is a real trickey issue. It would be better if the Courts simply said the matter isn't an issue that the Courts have jurisdiction on. Not everything is a matter for the Supreme Court, after all. Letting the people decide through their State legislatures and/or Constitutional amendment processes is, IMHO, the best course for the Courts to steer through on.

Gay marriage is coming to the USA and there is little that can be done to stop it. It will not be voted in by the people and probably not come about from an act of legislation, but from the courts. I think the states should preempt that now and start passing civil union laws. Otherwise, get ready for gay marriages in the next year or two.

572 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:02:54pm

re: #547 realwest

Huh. I would certainly allow abortions where a woman had been raped - don't really see what the "of course" means.

If abortion is murder, as many people believe, why should a child be murdered for somebody else's crime?

To me, anybody who can say "of course" has not looked closely at the huge contradiction they're creating.

573 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:03:17pm

re: #558 zombie

I tend to agree.

Make something easy to do, and people will do it more often. That includes, on one hand, having an unsupported baby, and, on the other hand, getting high on street drugs. The welfare system encourages illegitimacy, and ending the "drug war" will increase drug usage.

The biggest substance abuse problems is caused by 3.2 alcohol -- which may or may not mean anything. The drug war has actually caused an increase in drug usage amongst select populations. It also creates a culture of incarceration. Drug usage is caused by environment and it's not prevented by laws.

574 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:03:45pm

re: #569 FurryOldGuyJeans

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a big proponent of Eugenics.

Yes, she was. Planned Parenthood tries to whitewash that fact, but the evidence cannot be denied. Her best known book before her autobiography, The Pivot of Civilization, was quite clearly pro-eugenics.

575 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:05:15pm

Gee, Al Gore lied..... who woulda' ever thought!?

576 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:05:16pm

re: #570 Salamantis

Pastoral Counseling

Her weeping is a tiny, tinny sound
Crawling from the fallen receiver.
Precautions have failed us. We have
A Situation to address. She
Came to me for consolation
A troubled teen unable to
Handle her desires: nor I mine.
Her flesh was firm and ripe
And mine weak.
I have betrayed faith, flock, family
And the trust they and this girlchild
Placed in me. Unable to
Bear this revelation spreading further
I choose my sole recourse, to betray anew
And to embrace iniquity and
Lie with abomination.
I lift the receiver and speak to her
In practiced tones, both balming and commanding.
Go to the clinic, I tell her; I'll pay for it.
And shiver as ghost nails
Rake my back like a lover's clutches:
A dead hare crossing the grave of my convictions.

The Fundamentals

"Abortion is murder!", the witch-burners bray
As they kneel on their hard wooden floors to pray
That all the damned heathens will see the light
And be saved from Hell's bondage by bonfire bright
And Cain's crosses glowing in southern night.

Our mothers and sisters and daughters and wives
Are reduced to receptacles, their whole lives
Possessed by one purpose: to nurture cells
More worthy of life, for they might be male
Like Jesus - thus wombs are warped into jails.

Poor Eve is the pattern primordial, damned
By gender, as race consigned sons of Ham
To servitude, their God-burned cross their coal
Complexion, and if one should flee their fold
Love says, "Scourge the body to save the soul."

If knowledge of ethics is primal sin
Then 'teaching all nations' commits again
The error, but teach they must, for their bane
Is difference; they're driven to all souls train
For Heaven, where all seraphs sing the same.

Good poems, are they original?

577 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:05:27pm

re: #556 Salamantis

So you'd rather pass blanket abortion prohibitions that would serve as a powerful incentive for stalker rape?

Absolutely not. Personally, I believe the woman who's bearing the child should be able to choose.

578 Desert Dog  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:06:19pm

re: #574 Dark_Falcon

Yes, she was. Planned Parenthood tries to whitewash that fact, but the evidence cannot be denied. Her best known book before her autobiography, The Pivot of Civilization, was quite clearly pro-eugenics.

She was a monster and a racist of the highest order that thought she could "breed out" all the brown people of the world. That fact does not seem to matter to some people.

579 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:06:38pm

re: #548 solomonpanting
Yes Sol, but as I said somewhere upthread, gay civil unions - indeed civil marriages between straights are contracts. Under under our system interstate compacts require that a contract that is valid and enforceable in State A must be enforced by a judge in State B.

580 windhorse  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:06:48pm

so many lies.... so little time....

581 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:07:51pm

re: #573 Gus 802

The biggest substance abuse problems is caused by 3.2 alcohol -- which may or may not mean anything. The drug war has actually caused an increase in drug usage amongst select populations. It also creates a culture of incarceration. Drug usage is caused by environment and it's not prevented by laws.

When was beer invented? By the Babylonians? We're still drinking it. Human nature rejects constant sobriety. Many other animals do too.

582 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:08:36pm

re: #552 Salamantis
Thanks Sal - that's why I said that I think women who become pregnant because they were raped ought to have the right to an abortion should they choose to do so.

583 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:08:46pm

re: #532 Zimriel

His complete name is Barack Hussein Obama.

I was in no way comparing him to Sadamn...and as a Jew,to me, and to a lot of my non-Jewish friends, this Manchurian Candidate is an enemy of Israel.

And the Jews I know, including those in my family, who voted for him? They now have a massive case of buyers' remorse, and my kids, who are all Dems, actually have apologized, and fear for the future of our 3 little grandkids. It will take a number of years to fix up the disaster he has been since Day One, and each and every one of us is feeling the pain, but most of all, the realization of what he can and will do, with a Cabinet that is the very worst in my 71 years on the planet? It scares the sh*t out of me.

He is even more of a disaster than I thought he would be..he, like Hillary, are both Alinsky's devoted servants, even though Alinsky is dead...no matter how you look at it, we are screwed.

584 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:08:50pm

New thread ahead....

585 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:08:55pm

re: #578 Desert Dog

She was a monster and a racist of the highest order that thought she could "breed out" all the brown people of the world. That fact does not seem to matter to some people.

Agreed.

586 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:09:30pm

re: #534 reine.de.tout

Do you think there will be some wide-ranging prohibitions on this?
I'm not so sure.

I'm actually at the point where I wonder if the STATE should get out of the "marriage" business, and into ONLY the business of "civil unions", leaving "marriages" to religious institutions.

Yes! I totally agree. Why are people making this so complicated, if not for their personal agendas?

587 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:11:16pm

re: #574 Dark_Falcon

Yes, she was. Planned Parenthood tries to whitewash that fact, but the evidence cannot be denied. Her best known book before her autobiography, The Pivot of Civilization, was quite clearly pro-eugenics.

Sanger's wiki biography has a real hard time reconciling her stance regarding Eugenics. Of course, they gloss over and flat out ignore a lot of her more virulent racist ideals.

588 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:11:51pm

re: #581 Sharmuta

When was beer invented? By the Babylonians? We're still drinking it. Human nature rejects constant sobriety. Many other animals do too.

I don't know. 1000s of years. And we've been telling people not to use drugs or alcohol during that time. Some people have been sentenced for 100 years for marijuana distribution while murderers only serve 0 to 8 years in many cases. Yet at the same time marijuana use is still going up. Of course that's an example. This occurs at the same time that 10s of thousand of people get killed from something akin to going to a college football tailgate party.

589 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:12:17pm

re: #572 ShanghaiEd

If abortion is murder, as many people believe, why should a child be murdered for somebody else's crime?

To me, anybody who can say "of course" has not looked closely at the huge contradiction they're creating.

Why are you so apparently willing to intensify and prolong the suffering of raped women by forcing them to bear their rapists' children? And why are you so apparently willing to provide a powerful incentive for strategically planned rape?

You seem to possess no moral qualms whatsoever against giving obsessively fixated stalkers yet another strong reason to sexually violate their targets.

590 Irish Rose  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:12:39pm

There is no extremism on the right!
God is love!

591 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:13:02pm

re: #576 Dark_Falcon

Good poems, are they original?

Yep.

592 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:13:47pm

re: #581 Sharmuta

When was beer invented? By the Babylonians? We're still drinking it. Human nature rejects constant sobriety. Many other animals do too.

Many say prostitution is the world's oldest profession, I think they are wrong. Beer maker and bureaucrat are.

593 realwest  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:13:53pm

Well y'all it's been interesting and informative - both the comments and seeing who up or down dinged certain comments. Very enlightening indeed.
In any event, however I must get to sleep NOW!
Hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.


Good night, all.

594 solomonpanting  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:14:13pm

re: #579 realwest

Yes Sol, but as I said somewhere upthread, gay civil unions - indeed civil marriages between straights are contracts. Under under our system interstate compacts require that a contract that is valid and enforceable in State A must be enforced by a judge in State B.


Yes, and as more states are added to the same-sex column, I can see those states that haven't become pariahs, so to speak. I have a gut feeling that California's Supreme Court is going to throw out Prop 8's results. I believe its decision is coming within a few weeks.

595 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:15:05pm

re: #577 ShanghaiEd

Absolutely not. Personally, I believe the woman who's bearing the child should be able to choose.

Yep. Including the right to choose not to carry the misbegotten spawn of a rapist's violating seed to term.

596 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:15:40pm

re: #559 Dark_Falcon

That was still sad to watch. Watching a long-time member get herself banned for supporting a mass murderer. I did my best to talk her down from that position but could not (as did you, as I remember). Hopefully, NY Nana is able to understand the error in her post. Obama is not Saddam and it is foolish to suggest that he is.

It was very painful. I wasn't actually here that night, just saw it later.

But she did have a tendency to take ad hominems to the next level. Some of the stuff she said about Medaura was downright wicked.

re: #553 Catttt

I'm fine, Catttt. Really.

re: #532 Zimriel

Thanks again.

If I offended anyone personally here tonight I am sorry. I thought we were talking about politics.

✠pax uobiscum✠

597 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:15:48pm

re: #589 Salamantis

Why are you so apparently willing to intensify and prolong the suffering of raped women by forcing them to bear their rapists' children? And why are you so apparently willing to provide a powerful incentive for strategically planned rape?

You seem to possess no moral qualms whatsoever against giving obsessively fixated stalkers yet another strong reason to sexually violate their targets.

Please re-read my comments. I have said nothing of the sort. I don't believe any woman should be forced to bear a child against her will.

598 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:16:08pm

re: #593 realwest

Well y'all it's been interesting and informative - both the comments and seeing who up or down dinged certain comments. Very enlightening indeed.
In any event, however I must get to sleep NOW!
Hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

Later RW.

We are like the Greeks and the Romans. ;)

I think I just up-dinged all night.

599 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:16:32pm
600 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:17:11pm

re: #569 FurryOldGuyJeans

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a big proponent of Eugenics.

Oh, yeah! I can't believe I forgot that. PP wants us to remember the part where she wanted women to have control of their own bodies and forget the part where she wanted forced sterilization of undesirables.

601 Irish Rose  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:17:44pm

re: #544 Cato the Elder

Thank you. I thought I had wandered into freerepublic.com by mistake.

It was NY Nana, though, who went off about "Hussein" and "dictatorship". I've known her since I before I wore the toga virilis, but I guess you don't really know anyone until all the buttons are pushed. With Ploome I saw it coming...

OK, what did I miss?

602 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:18:07pm

re: #596 Cato the Elder

I'm glad you are ok. You did not offend me. I am hard to offend. :D

603 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:19:58pm

re: #597 ShanghaiEd

Please re-read my comments. I have said nothing of the sort. I don't believe any woman should be forced to bear a child against her will.

There we agree. I am in favor of the right to abortion in the first trimester, the right to abortion in cases of rape or incest until fetal viability (halfway theough the second trimester), and after that, a prohibition except in cases where the woman would either be at great risk of death or of severe and permanent physical injury (paralysis, brain damage, that sort of thing).

604 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:20:00pm

re: #594 solomonpanting

One of the reasons, as I see it, for the vote on Prop 8 the way it went was directly due to all the courts across the country imposing their unelected will on the people.

605 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:21:27pm

re: #599 Iron Fist

Years ago, well before all the gay marriage talk, a customer wrote to ask if my company gave benefits to gay life partners. I called the head of benefits. She told me they'd decided they would, yes, give those benefits to life partners, but no one had applied for them yet. Heh. So that's what I wrote back to the customer. Yes - we do. We were ahead of the curve.

606 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:21:51pm

re: #583 NY Nana

And yet - not a dictatorship.

And calling it "Hussein's dictatorship" is just - how shall I put this nicely?

Over the top.

607 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:21:52pm
608 Irish Rose  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:22:14pm

NY Nana was banned?
What the hell for?

609 solomonpanting  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:22:57pm

re: #604 FurryOldGuyJeans

One of the reasons, as I see it, for the vote on Prop 8 the way it went was directly due to all the courts across the country imposing their unelected will on the people.

It was one year ago that California's Supreme Court overturned the ban, leading to Prop 8. Now, the Court gets to rule a second time. All hell will break loose if it now overturns Prop 8.

610 Eric Blair  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:23:14pm

Sorry, I don't get the point of this. Why shouldn't Alan Keyes protest President Obama's pro-abortion policies? And what does Tariq Ramadan have to do with this?
I really doubt Keyes approves of Ramadan's views on Islam or on homosexuality or on much of anything. (I suppose they are both monotheists, unless, of course, Ramadan is a hypocrite opportunist).

611 Gus  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:24:25pm

re: #608 Irish Rose

NY Nana was banned?
What the hell for?

She's not banned.

612 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:24:55pm

re: #559 Dark_Falcon

Please read this post I put up.

G'nite, all. Sweet dreams!

613 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:25:19pm

re: #600 Catttt

Oh, yeah! I can't believe I forgot that. PP wants us to remember the part where she wanted women to have control of their own bodies and forget the part where she wanted forced sterilization of undesirables.

Well, by the same measure...Henry Ford published a number of anti-Jewish booklets, calling Jews "the world's foremost problem." They don't tell you that at the Ford dealership when they're trying to sell you a car, do they? Does it matter, these decades later?

614 Throbert McGee  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:25:53pm

re: #570 Salamantis

Pastoral Counseling
[snip]

What dishonest dreck.

615 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:26:09pm

re: #499 Fenway_Nation

And while we're on the topic.....sort of....what the hell is a homosexual male- someone who by definition finds woman unattractive and off-putting, no matter how plain or beautiful- doing judging a women's beauty pageant? Wouldn't a lesbian be more appropraite?

/And this Perez Hilton seems like an insufferable little shit regardless of his sexual preference.

It makes about as much sense as a homosexual male favoring a blanket prohibition of abortion, since he will never either be the cause of a pregnancy nor be the one to bear it.

616 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:26:16pm

re: #608 Irish Rose

NY Nana was banned?
What the hell for?

I have to go to bed - my Siamese is yelling from the bedroom! But gotta straighten this out - NO she wasn't banned!

I think they were talking about Ploome being banned some time back and also about something Nana said that Cato disagreed with a lot. Nuff of that! Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, and enough said.

617 Irish Rose  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:26:32pm

OK, I see it now.
Good grief, I was started to wonder what the hell I had walked into.

I need sleep, I guess.

618 [deleted]  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:26:53pm
619 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:27:00pm

re: #608 Irish Rose

Nope, not me...Ploome was.

{{{{{{ Irish Rose }}}}}}

620 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:27:19pm

re: #571 Desert Dog

Gay marriage is coming to the USA and there is little that can be done to stop it. It will not be voted in by the people and probably not come about from an act of legislation, but from the courts. I think the states should preempt that now and start passing civil union laws. Otherwise, get ready for gay marriages in the next year or two.

Um, been skipping the news lately? Four states already have gay marriage. And I know a lesbian couple who got married in Massachusetts right after the law was passed. The are hard-working, decent people.

The sky did not fall. And no church was forced to offer marriage against its conscience.

621 solomonpanting  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:27:19pm

re: #607 Iron Fist

On what grounds? A Constitutional amendment isn't Constitutional? That will be a novel approach. The Courts should just dismiss the Legislature and executive and declare themselves dictator and be done with it. If the Courts can override a Constitutional amendment then there isn't really much point in having a Constitution. Just let the judges run everything.

I agree with you regarding the audacity of the Courts.
Supreme Court: We are amending the Constitution. Gays now have the rights of marriage.
Citizens: We'll pass Prop 8 to amend the Constitution.
SC: Prop 8 is unconstitutional because you cannot take away rights granted under constitutional law.
:)

622 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:27:47pm

re: #613 ShanghaiEd

When Ford starts programming cars to run over Jewish people, it will equate with PP accepting money from people who say they want it to go to black abortions.

623 NY Nana  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:29:32pm

re: #616 Catttt

Boo! ;)

624 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:29:53pm

re: #618 Iron Fist

My medical insurance recently amended its contractual terms to allow for same-sex marriage partners where they are require to by law. Sort of a pre-emptive statement that they will abide by the law no matter what the law is.

Gee. Nice of them to obey the law. Geez. My silly company, wanting to proactively help out its employees, well before any law was even discussed.

625 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:30:31pm

re: #623 NY Nana

Boo! ;)

Are you in NY? It's 2:30 a.m.! :D

626 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:31:07pm

re: #614 Throbert McGee

What dishonest dreck.

Something kinda like that actually happened in my hometown. A local white Southern Baptist pastor who railed against abortion from the pulpit and bussed his congregation to protest at the local clinic on the days when abortions were performed there did not bus his flock over on a particular day when he brought his underaged daughter in for the procedure, after she became pregnant by her underaged black boyfriend.

It's called hypocrisy. Things can sometimes look vastly different when they become personal.

627 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:32:07pm

re: #603 Salamantis

There we agree. I am in favor of the right to abortion in the first trimester, the right to abortion in cases of rape or incest until fetal viability (halfway theough the second trimester), and after that, a prohibition except in cases where the woman would either be at great risk of death or of severe and permanent physical injury (paralysis, brain damage, that sort of thing).

You're basically saying you're "pro-choice"? So am I. Are you aware that the GOP in general thinks we're the devil incarnate because we hold those views?

628 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:34:47pm

re: #627 ShanghaiEd

You're basically saying you're "pro-choice"? So am I. Are you aware that the GOP in general thinks we're the devil incarnate because we hold those views?

I'm even worse a pro-life republican that doesn't support the ban.

629 Catttt  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:37:06pm

re: #628 Sharmuta

I'm even worse a pro-life republican that doesn't support the ban.

I'm a pro-life Democrat who agrees with you. I don't want a ban - I want people to choose life.

630 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:37:56pm

re: #627 ShanghaiEd

You're basically saying you're "pro-choice"? So am I. Are you aware that the GOP in general thinks we're the devil incarnate because we hold those views?

The direction the GOP is so intent on trodding sure doesn't make give a rat's ass what they think anyone is.

631 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:38:36pm

re: #608 Irish Rose

NY Nana was banned?
What the hell for?

Perish the thought!

Again, all: peace.

632 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:39:17pm

re: #622 Catttt

When Ford starts programming cars to run over Jewish people, it will equate with PP accepting money from people who say they want it to go to black abortions.

This is news to me. Do you have a link?

633 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:42:06pm

re: #628 Sharmuta

I'm even worse a pro-life republican that doesn't support the ban.

Catttt & Sharmuta: Good for you! Life is complicated, isn't it? So I can take off my devil horns, among present company? :)

(Sorry for the double post above; I'm learning...)

634 Salamantis  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:42:29pm

re: #627 ShanghaiEd

You're basically saying you're "pro-choice"? So am I. Are you aware that the GOP in general thinks we're the devil incarnate because we hold those views?

I don't care. I do not allow a party, or its members, to dictate my personal positions.

I was a clinic escort in the worst part of the antiabortion violence in my hometown, after I happened to drive by a clinic one day and saw women trying to enter being beaten over the head and shoulders with antiabortion protest placards. I just couldn't passively stand by and witness these women being treated that way. The clinic escort murderd by Paul Hill and his wife whom Paul Hill wounded were friends of mine.

The escort tried to shield the doctor with his body and took the shotgun blast in his face, the same way that I shielded those frightened and desperate women with my own body and took the protest placard beatings intended for them on my own head, back and shoulders.

The funeral had to be closed casket.

635 Sharmuta  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:43:37pm

re: #629 Catttt

I'm a pro-life Democrat who agrees with you. I don't want a ban - I want people to choose life.

Me too- we have to win hearts and minds.

636 ShanghaiEd  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:46:11pm

Salamantis: What a horrifying experience. Bless you, and more power to you.

637 freedomplow  Fri, May 15, 2009 11:56:17pm

My son was born when I was 17. I was scared and didn't know what to do.

Today he is trying to figure out how to get a masters from a marine biology school... Kind of fishy.

We all have tremendous decisions in life.

Let's not try to compare them. It doesn't work that way.

638 brockton808  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:04:05am

Comparing those who attempt to protect the lives of our most innocent to Islamic radicals who kill homosexuals is ludicrous.

639 freetoken  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:07:47am

re: #638 brockton808

Who did that?

640 brockton808  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:25:00am

re: #639re: #639 freetoken

Read the post.

641 Spare O'Lake  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:29:56am

Ya gotta luv dat fake blood./

642 freetoken  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:30:05am

re: #640 brockton808

re: #639

Read the post.

You need to reread the post.

643 SteveRogers  Sat, May 16, 2009 1:05:05am

re: #463 ShanghaiEd

To my knowledge, only three states allow civil unions. Go across the border to one of the 40+ states that don't, and you're out of luck.

Actually, 9 states have civil union laws, plus five more have legalized gay marriage. Some others have limited rights for gay couples.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

644 SteveRogers  Sat, May 16, 2009 1:22:07am

re: #643 SteveRogers

Some states call them domestic partnerships.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

645 Salamantis  Sat, May 16, 2009 2:39:56am

re: #638 brockton808

Comparing those who attempt to protect the lives of our most innocent to Islamic radicals who kill homosexuals is ludicrous.

Not when they both murder to further what they both consider to be holy aims.

646 brockton808  Sat, May 16, 2009 2:45:26am

re: #645 Salamantis

It seems as though radical Islamists have been killing MANY infidels lately. Was 1998 the last time an abortion doctor was murdered? Trying to find some perspective here...

647 Annar  Sat, May 16, 2009 3:25:28am

If Notre Dame has no desire to even make a symbolic stand for church doctrine by at least not conferring an honorary doctorate then they should henceforth declare as a secular institution with no church affiliation.

I have no horse in that race but a couple of my friends who are ND graduates have informed the university that no more cash is coming, now or when they pass away. Hypocrisy has its price.

648 Salamantis  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:02:29am

re: #646 brockton808

It seems as though radical Islamists have been killing MANY infidels lately. Was 1998 the last time an abortion doctor was murdered? Trying to find some perspective here...

Close to a dozen abortion doctors and clinic escorts have been murdered by these people. Clinics have been firebombed more than 120 times, and fake anthrax has been sent to many of them in the mail, and many other acts of vandalism and cruelty have been perpetrated by them. Antiabortion terrorism remains our most widespread and violent purely domstic terror issue.

In my midsized hometown alone (Pensacola, Florida), three people were murdered and more than twice that many wounded. Clinics were firebombed here more than half a dozen times. Clinic property is routinely invaded so that thugs can copy down license plate numbers, and moles in the police deprtment then trace them and hand over the info to the antiabortionists, who then picket their homes, accost their kids, and call their employers and threaten to burn down their businesses. One person has been sent to prison for life from my hometown for murder, another has been exedcfuted for multiple murder, four others faced prison time for clinic firebombings (as a present to Jesus on His birthday, no less), and yet another was sentenced to a lengthy prison term for antiabortion-related sexual assault (this same guy invited a circuit-riding clinic bomber into town, then took him on a car ride to case a local clinic). One clinic vandal who forced her way in and destroyed medical equipment turned out to have committed the very same crime in more than 100 different clinics throughout the nation over a period of two years; antiabortionists paid her passage from place to place so she could continue committing her crimes. But the state of Florida found out that her property destruction was not an isolated incident but a steady occupation, so instead of receiving a fine and a few days in jail, she got sentenced to 5 years in prison.

My voluntary service as a clinic escort led to an antiabortion mole illegally accessing my college transcripts so that they could construct a profile by means of which they hoped to more effectively intimidate me with telephone threats. Some days I received more than 100 such threats a day, from several different voices, calling from many different telephone booths. When that didn't work, they began surveilling my home; then they sabotaged my car. Finally, they killed our family cat and hung it by a noose from a tree in my backyard, with a note safety-pinned through its belly skin reading "YOU'RE NEXT, BABY KILLER!" From what I heard from other clinic escorts, my experience was far from unusual.

Don't you DARE to even begin to consider contemplating lecturing to me about how mild, rare, and insignificant the threat from these people is; I know more about it, from bitter personal experience, than you could ever begin to imagine.

649 Salamantis  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:05:33am

Sorry about the typos in my previous post; that arrogant ignorant anus just pissed me off, and I typed in a whirlwind fury.

It's still readable, and people can grasp what I said.

650 SixDegrees  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:15:40am

re: #423 Fenway_Nation


I never said anything about opposing civil unions.

There's no difference at all between civil unions and marriage except the name. Insisting on a different label simply because of gender is as offensive as apartheid or "separate but equal" laws.

What needs clarification here is the role of the state versus the role of the church - any church. The legislation currently working it's way through several state legislatures broadens the definition of marriage to include people of the same sex - as far as the state is concerned. As far as the church is concerned, it says absolutely nothing, which is as it should be. The state's recognition of such a partnership simply provides legal certification that the partnership exists, which also opens the legal doors to various benefits (and detriments) available only to those who are deemed to be married - spousal inheritance, inclusion in spousal benefit programs, a special (higher) tax rate at the Federal level and so on.

The church, meanwhile, has it's own completely separate criteria for what constitutes an approved marriage, and no amount of state legislating is going to change that. The Catholic Church is not going to start performing gay marriages. Neither are the Baptists. The Unitarians probably will. None of this is any different from what already exists today. When the wife and I got married, I approached a priest from my church I had known for several years about performing the ceremony. When he learned that the wife-to-be belonged to a different faith, he flat-out refused. He later softened his views and said he'd do it if she went through a six-month course leading to conversion and renunciation of her old faith, at which point I bailed on him and his faith for the duration of my time on this planet. But that's how his church sees things. I doubt that it would be hard to find fundamentalist churches that felt exactly the same way about marrying people from different faiths; of different races; or of the same gender. Whether you feel that's right or wrong, that's between the church, it's members and whatever god they worship. The state has nothing to say about it. Period. End of story.

The state's role in granting a marriage certificate is strictly legal. Period.

If you're uncomfortable with the state issuing marriage licenses to homosexuals, I'd suggest a simpler solution: stop issuing them to anyone at all, and give everyone a certificate of civil union instead. The use of the term "marriage" by the state may be long-standing, but it's a holdover from a time when church and state were essentially one. In today's more enlightened society, it would be best to do away with this fuzzy overlap entirely and simply eliminate the term "marriage" from what the state grants. Or, people could just as simply understand what is meant by the term when it is used by the state and how that differs from the use of the term when applied by a church. Either way, problem solved. The state and it's endorsement are entirely separate from anything any church may have to say.

Church-goers to whom such things matter will still be free to refer to state-sanctioned same-sex couples as "sinners" or "tools of Satan" or "destined for eternal damnation" if that's really what they think they ought to do.

651 SixDegrees  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:19:09am

re: #646 brockton808

It seems as though radical Islamists have been killing MANY infidels lately. Was 1998 the last time an abortion doctor was murdered? Trying to find some perspective here...

It isn't a matter of who has the high score using a given tactic. It's a matter of similarity of goals - the establishment of a single fundamentalist religion imposed on an entire populace. That there is even a slight overlap in tactics only makes things worse, but isn't necessary to conclude that the difference between the Taliban and many anti-abortion groups is precisely zero as far as their ultimate aims are concerned.

652 SixDegrees  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:21:04am

re: #649 Salamantis

Sorry about the typos in my previous post; that arrogant ignorant anus just pissed me off, and I typed in a whirlwind fury.

It's still readable, and people can grasp what I said.

I got it. I totally agree with you, as well. People like Terry and Keyes being free to roam the streets makes me want to carry a big can of bear mace with me at all times.

653 Throbert McGee  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:54:24am

re: #32 pink freud

Why does one's sexuality need to be admitted to the world?

Why NOT?

654 polprof  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:57:05am

I think Notre Dame was wrong to invite both Tariq and Barak. But I was VERY taken aback by Charles' suggestion that Catholics of any stripe are in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals. That is a big leap from the general Catholic doctrinal disapproval of homosexual acts. In close to 25 years of teaching at a Catholic university, and four years of graduate education at a Catholic university, I have never encountered any Catholic who is in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals, and those who actually accept Church doctrine about homosexuality seem rare enough. So unless there is something that I missed about Catholic doctrine or opinion today--and I would be interested in seeing it, as I am not a Catholic myself and no expert in the matter--Charles has aimed a MOST uncharacteristically low blow here.

655 Sharmuta  Sat, May 16, 2009 5:00:43am

re: #654 polprof

Charles didn't suggest that at all. I believe he suggested that the islamists are like the radical anti-abortion protesters, not Catholics.

656 freetoken  Sat, May 16, 2009 5:16:07am

re: #654 polprof

Reading comprehension FAIL.

657 SixDegrees  Sat, May 16, 2009 5:38:13am

re: #654 polprof

I think Notre Dame was wrong to invite both Tariq and Barak. But I was VERY taken aback by Charles' suggestion that Catholics of any stripe are in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals. That is a big leap from the general Catholic doctrinal disapproval of homosexual acts. In close to 25 years of teaching at a Catholic university, and four years of graduate education at a Catholic university, I have never encountered any Catholic who is in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals, and those who actually accept Church doctrine about homosexuality seem rare enough. So unless there is something that I missed about Catholic doctrine or opinion today--and I would be interested in seeing it, as I am not a Catholic myself and no expert in the matter--Charles has aimed a MOST uncharacteristically low blow here.

I'm not seeing any of this in any of Charles' posts, either here or in any past postings he's made. Please provide a reference; without it, your statements here make no sense.

658 polprof  Sat, May 16, 2009 5:47:27am

re: #655 Sharmuta

On reflection I think Sharmuta is almost certainly correct, but a lot depends on how you read "these people," in the following:

Not one of these people uttered a word of protest when Notre Dame University tried to bring radical Islamist Tariq Ramadan to the school, to make him chairman of the Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies.

But Tariq Ramadan is in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals, so maybe they have that much in common.

659 arielle  Sat, May 16, 2009 6:23:00am

re: #493 zombie

zombie, that was a powerful post. I can't believe you watched the abortion taking place. I don't think I could.

I was just wondering, had you seen a baby in utero before? The first time I had seen one (not just a still picture, but an actual moving baby) was MY baby, when I was looking at my ultrasound. They print out photos of each session, and you can see a clearly defined head, arms, body and legs as early 12 weeks.

Zombie, I loooove your work and I live in the Bay Area so I am always following your investigative reporting. You do a great job!

660 SixDegrees  Sat, May 16, 2009 6:33:25am

re: #658 polprof

On reflection I think Sharmuta is almost certainly correct, but a lot depends on how you read "these people," in the following:

Not one of these people uttered a word of protest when Notre Dame University tried to bring radical Islamist Tariq Ramadan to the school, to make him chairman of the Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies.

But Tariq Ramadan is in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals, so maybe they have that much in common.

Charles is referencing the people mentioned in the article: Keyes, Weslin, Terry and their supporters. They hardly represent all Catholics. They seem to barely represent even a few.

661 rhymeswithright  Sat, May 16, 2009 6:39:19am

With all due respect, Charles, am I correct in understanding that you believe that those people who do not protest against every wrong decision by Notre Dame have no moral authority to protest against any wrong decision by Notre Dame?

And am I correct in understanding you as saying that those who focus on one particular issue do not have the moral authority to protest against Notre Dame on that issue unless they also have protested against what you see as a serious transgression by Notre Dame on an issue that you hold to be more important?

Sounds to me like you are almost supporting conservatives becoming the sort of "protest everything" mob we have seen for decades on the Left, with the same folks turning out at every protest on every issue.

662 Throbert McGee  Sat, May 16, 2009 6:57:06am

re: #499 Fenway_Nation

what the hell is a homosexual male- someone who by definition finds woman unattractive and off-putting, no matter how plain or beautiful- doing judging a women's beauty pageant?

By your rather peculiar logic, it would seem that in order to be qualified as a judge for a "Cute Puppy Contest," one must get sexually aroused when looking at puppies...

663 pjaicomo  Sat, May 16, 2009 7:09:21am

The whole "Notre Dame Scandal" is such an incredible example of making a mountain out of a molehill.

Like him or not (which I do not), he is the sitting president of the United States, and any school would be lucky to have him. At first, the debate was that he was the commencement speaker at all, then those making that argument realized for the most part that what they were saying was just a bit too kooky, so they started criticizing the awarding of the honorary degree.

Last time I checked you could support un-Catholic ideals and get a REAL degree from Notre Dame, and I checked last year when they gave me one.

By the way, my commencement speaker was a Cardinal (snooze fest), so leave it alone. If you don't like it, don't send your kids to Notre Dame.

Nevermind the fact that besides the abortion issue, Obama's political ideologies align nearly completely with the Catholic church's.

I don't remember this outcry when George Bush gave the commencement address and received an honorary degree in 2001. He is pro-death penalty don't you know.

664 jzm  Sat, May 16, 2009 7:44:05am

Being a Christian myself for most of my life I really wish my fellow Christians would remember we live in a FREE country.

"You ain't gonna be my judge
Cuz my judge will judge us all one day
You do your thing, I'll do mine" - Montgomery Gentry

665 zelnaga  Sat, May 16, 2009 8:02:50am

re: #391 nyc redneck

he was discussing a human life, his own grandchild and described it as a PUNISHMENT, if it was born at an inconvenient time.
there is no way to spin that as acceptable. the issues you have cited to describe
any hard ships or inconvenience involved in raising the child have nothing to do w/ this calloused statement from o, that is basically a window to his soul.
he is a stone cold narcissist.
his words are a window to his soul. he is a total narcissist.


Seems to me you're being just as much a narcissist to say someone who's gotten pregnant at an inconvenient time has been blessed.

Giving up a child for adoption is probably just as painful for those who have to do it as having your home foreclosed if not more so. Having to drop out of college and give up on your hopes and your dreams so you can get a job to support your kid... sign me up! Postpartum depression? Who wants to feel good about themselves, anyway?

If some pregnant person views their pregnancy as a punishment, who are you to tell them otherwise? And if someone pregnant person view their pregnancy as a blessing, again, who are you to tell them otherwise?

Pregnancy is ultimately a deeply personal matter and imho it's inappropriate for anyone to attempt to butt in.

666 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 16, 2009 8:53:55am

re: #661 rhymeswithright

With all due respect, Charles, am I correct in understanding that you believe that those people who do not protest against every wrong decision by Notre Dame have no moral authority to protest against any wrong decision by Notre Dame?

No, you are not correct. I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of these people, who were perfectly fine with letting a radical Islamist into Notre Dame, but blow their gaskets over the legally elected President of the United States.

And these particular people are dangerous kooks tied to radical groups, by the way. In my view, they have no "moral authority" at all.

667 El Guape  Sat, May 16, 2009 8:53:57am

re: #664 jzm

Yes, this is a free country, however we are free to do whatever as long as it's legal. I think that most Christians wish abortion to be illegal. And yes, everyone should be able to judge good behaviour from bad behaviour. We judge assault to be bad. Why? Because someone gets hurt.

re: #665 zelnaga

Pregnany as punishment? Punishment for what? Pregnancy is the natural consequence of sex. Cause and effect. Pregancy is no more of a punishment than taking having diarrhea is after you've eaten at a roadside restaurant in Mexico. It's just what is supposed to happen.

So you can view it as punishment if you like, but that's just irrational.

668 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 16, 2009 8:55:54am

re: #654 polprof

I think Notre Dame was wrong to invite both Tariq and Barak. But I was VERY taken aback by Charles' suggestion that Catholics of any stripe are in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals. That is a big leap from the general Catholic doctrinal disapproval of homosexual acts. In close to 25 years of teaching at a Catholic university, and four years of graduate education at a Catholic university, I have never encountered any Catholic who is in favor of the death penalty for homosexuals, and those who actually accept Church doctrine about homosexuality seem rare enough. So unless there is something that I missed about Catholic doctrine or opinion today--and I would be interested in seeing it, as I am not a Catholic myself and no expert in the matter--Charles has aimed a MOST uncharacteristically low blow here.

Maybe you should look into the Lambs of Christ organization, and Alan Keyes' own opinions about homosexuality, before you jump to such a ridiculous unwarranted conclusion.

669 tradewind  Sat, May 16, 2009 9:13:31am

Dammit, if the Republicans had run a real candidate against BHO, he may not be president today.
That's all I have against Keyes.

670 tradewind  Sat, May 16, 2009 9:14:51am

I'm not sure that Tariq's invitation was that well publicized. Definitely not as well publicized as the BHO speech.....maybe that had something to do with the lack of outrage.

671 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 16, 2009 9:16:57am

re: #670 tradewind

I'm not sure that Tariq's invitation was that well publicized. Definitely not as well publicized as the BHO speech.....maybe that had something to do with the lack of outrage.

Tariq Ramadan's invitation, and the US government's opposition to it, was front page news.

672 y0kkles  Sat, May 16, 2009 9:35:28am

I'm very pro-life, but I don't think grandstanding and fake blood is an effective method. That should be left to the left. Perhaps a more prudent protest would have been appropriate. But to classify these people as radicals might be a bit much. Radicals are those who blow up clinics and protest homosexuality at military funerals.

673 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 16, 2009 9:48:29am

re: #672 y0kkles

I'm very pro-life, but I don't think grandstanding and fake blood is an effective method. That should be left to the left. Perhaps a more prudent protest would have been appropriate. But to classify these people as radicals might be a bit much. Radicals are those who blow up clinics and protest homosexuality at military funerals.

Hello? The Lambs of Christ are tied to people who blow up abortion clinics.

674 Throbert McGee  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:07:31am

re: #650 SixDegrees

There's no difference at all between civil unions and marriage except the name. Insisting on a different label simply because of gender is as offensive as apartheid or "separate but equal" laws.

No, really, it's not. Calling it "marriage" for male/female couples but "civil unions" for male/male and female/female couples is somewhat different from the South African government forbidding certain people to live in certain areas based on skin color.

And "separate but equal" became a dirty phrase in the case of segregated schools because there were finite quantities of tangible assets at stake -- every piece of the school-funding pie that was taken by white schools became unavailable for black schools. It was a zero-sum game.

But this isn't the case when it comes to the benefits of legal marriage. John and Mary McHetero don't automatically lose their right to inherit each other's money just because Adam and Steve Homovich have gained that right. Conversely, if the full weight of the law declares that Adam and Steve are entitled to call themselves spouses and become each other's next-of-kin, then the practical legal value of their spousal contract is not diminished by calling it a "civil union" instead of "marriage."

There is, of course, one intangible difference between "marriage" and "civil union" -- the former is a concept that has existed since the dawn of human civilization and is the bedrock and central pillar on which society is built, and blah blah de blah, while the latter was invented piecemeal within the past 20 or 30 years by jurists in Connecticut and California, and thus it is badly lacking in gravitas and dignity. That's why so many in the GBLTQXYЩЙ Community made a fuss about Prop 8, which theoretically converted California's same-sex "marriages" back into same-sex "domestic partnerships" -- "domestic partnership" doesn't command the same respect as "marriage."

And commanding respect -- or rather, the vague notion that the government can and should command everyone to respect same-sex couples -- is what this is all about. But as Iron Fist has pointed out above, there are no shortcuts to respect and social acceptability. If the majority of people don't accept in their hearts that same-sex couplehood is "more or less like traditional marriage," then it's entirely pointless to make laws calling it "marriage"; people will grudgingly call Adam and Steve "married" if they have to, but they won't believe the two men are "united in the eyes of God." And bringing people to accept that God approves of same-sex couples is something that only Adam and Steve themselves can do, by the example that they present to their friends and neighbors -- it won't happen through legislation.

675 avspatti  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:17:42am

re: #666 Charles

No, you are not correct. I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of these people, who were perfectly fine with letting a radical Islamist into Notre Dame, but blow their gaskets over the legally elected President of the United States.

And these particular people are dangerous kooks tied to radical groups, by the way. In my view, they have no "moral authority" at all.

But how do you know they were 'perfectly fine' with letting a radical Islamist into ND? People pick their battles. Every evil must be fought, but people have only so much time and energy to physically fight against these things. People can oppose in other ways as well.

676 avspatti  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:22:02am

re: #653 Throbert McGee

Why NOT?

Because some things should be private.

677 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:35:21am

re: #669 tradewind

Dammit, if the Republicans had run a real candidate against BHO, he may not be president today.
That's all I have against Keyes.

Downding for not knowing the meaning of the word "may".

678 Throbert McGee  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:43:04am

re: #676 avspatti

Because some things should be private.

What things? Should "I'm a man who dates other men, not women" be private?

679 RedHouseBlueState  Sat, May 16, 2009 10:50:08am

I don't have sympathy for the really whacked out anti-abortionists, especially those who use violence in the name of ending violence. No rest in my home for them.

But as a practicing Roman Catholic, I must say, President Obama speaking there, definitely does not sit well with me. With all due respect to the office of the President, about the only pro-abortion stance the President hasn't advocated has been clubbing nuns protesting in silent prayer out side Planned Parenthood.

The American Catholic universities have drifting secular for some time now. A University in Chicago paid Ward Churchill for a speech. Another one hosted the Vagina Monologues. I've already stopped donating to the special Sunday collections directly for Catholic higher education.

Personally I don't have any, much less all answers. I just know something about this doesn't feel right.

680 avspatti  Sat, May 16, 2009 11:13:54am

re: #678 Throbert McGee

What things? Should "I'm a man who dates other men, not women" be private?

If the person involved wants it to be private, then yes. It is entirely up to the ones involved. It is really nobody else's business.

681 TechObjectivist  Sat, May 16, 2009 11:59:47am

re: #50 pink freud

Nah. People through their kids out of their homes for homosexuality far more often than political views. Plus it is consistent with these people's weird obsessions about sexuality, which run far deeper than views about politics. I suspect there are far more openly liberal Catholics than openly gay ones. I've heard that about one third of all teenage suicides are at least in part as a result of their inability to deal with their sexuality. I personally suspect that this figure is exaggerated a little. But somehow I think that there is much more likely to be an epidemic of teen suicides as a result of homosexuality, rather than having political views which differ from parents. If pink freud believes this is really about politics, I'd like to hear some evidence.

682 Throbert McGee  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:24:39pm

re: #680 avspatti

If the person involved wants it to be private, then yes. It is entirely up to the ones involved. It is really nobody else's business.

Okay, then we're on the same page.

683 Sharmuta  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:32:31pm

re: #674 Throbert McGee

{Throbert}

Sometimes I wonder if it isn't the more radical homosexuals that damage the rest of the community by their brazen behavior.

684 pink freud  Sat, May 16, 2009 12:40:20pm

re: #681 TechObjectivist

Nah. People through their kids out of their homes for homosexuality far more often than political views. Plus it is consistent with these people's weird obsessions about sexuality, which run far deeper than views about politics. I suspect there are far more openly liberal Catholics than openly gay ones. I've heard that about one third of all teenage suicides are at least in part as a result of their inability to deal with their sexuality. I personally suspect that this figure is exaggerated a little. But somehow I think that there is much more likely to be an epidemic of teen suicides as a result of homosexuality, rather than having political views which differ from parents. If pink freud believes this is really about politics, I'd like to hear some evidence.

I had to read your post a couple of times to understand what you were trying to say to me.

My views align with yours on every sentence of your post. Your last sentence leads me to believe you misunderstood my statement, which was:

"I'd venture to guess that Keyes' loving or not loving his daughter is not predicated on her sexuality. It's simply the peg upon which he chose to hang that particular chapeaux."

To clarify: I meant that I see Keyes as a harsh, judgmental, disapproving person/parent and that the problems he has with his daughter are able to be conveniently hung on the fact that she is homosexual. He can point to that and say, 'how can i love her if she is gay' which conveniently absolves him (in his own mind) from his failings as a parent (which have nothing to do with her sexual orientation). I don't think it has anything to do with politics.

685 TechObjectivist  Sat, May 16, 2009 1:21:16pm

re: #683 Sharmuta

{Throbert}

Sometimes I wonder if it isn't the more radical homosexuals that damage the rest of the community by their brazen behavior.

Here, here!

686 rhymeswithright  Sat, May 16, 2009 2:01:00pm

re: #666 Charles

No, you are not correct. I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of these people, who were perfectly fine with letting a radical Islamist into Notre Dame, but blow their gaskets over the legally elected President of the United States.

And these particular people are dangerous kooks tied to radical groups, by the way. In my view, they have no "moral authority" at all.

Charles -- but were they "perfectly fine" with letting the guy into Notre Dame? You make a big assumption there. After all, I have been involved in the pro-life movement for years, but have never participated in the any activities to raise money for breast cancer research. Does that mean I am "perfectly fine with women dying of breast cancer"? Or does it mean that I have chosen to focus my energies on an issue other than breast cancer?

Besides, your response above makes it sound like you think there is something wrong with protesting "the legally elected President of the United States". Be careful lest you start sounding like those who argue that disagreeing with Obama is treason.

687 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 16, 2009 2:08:00pm

re: #129 mikalm

We need to "take back america" and spew pure hatred on our children if they aren't heterosexual!

////////////////////

688 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 16, 2009 3:11:13pm

re: #686 rhymeswithright

Be careful lest you start sounding like those who argue that disagreeing with Obama is treason.

Thanks -- I'll give your advice all the careful consideration it deserves.

689 Gus  Sat, May 16, 2009 3:41:13pm

Looks like this article has caused the ignoramus William Teach's head to explode. Feeble and childish blog was posted at the latest moronic convergence, Stop the ACLU.

690 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:00:24pm

re: #319 Joan Not of Arc

Who the hell greenlighted his coming and how fast do they want to be excommunicated?

This institution isn't going to be excommunicated. Ever. Times change, ideas change and people move on. I think the RCC has enough issues to deal with at the moment - like maintaining the rank and file numbers in the parishes, than concerning itself with just another Catholic university that's gone off the reservation.

I could be wrong of course, as I'm not privy to Catholic policy these days.

691 tradewind  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:40:36pm

re: #677 Cato the Elder

Whatev.

692 tradewind  Sat, May 16, 2009 4:52:37pm

re: #677 Cato the Elder

Okay.
Put another way, in my opinion, it's entirely possible that had the Republicans chosen a more viable candidate to run against BHO in the IL senate race, they might have eliminated his opportunity to secure the democratic presidential nomination.
It's a shame that Keyes is a french fry or two short of a happy meal.... he has a great speaking voice and many good points. And I don't see him as a hater, just someone who has very passionate opinions and in some instances, tunnel vision.

693 AFVetWife  Sat, May 16, 2009 5:01:16pm

I am Catholic. I can understand ND asking the current President to speak at their commencement - however, I have a big problem with the honorary degree. I do not condone violence or illegal acts at abortion clinics; however, I do believe in demonstrations, informational picketing and such at those locations.
I do not have many opportunities to post here, although I do read the posts and comments every chance I get. There are some topics on which I will not comment, as I feel I may be contrary to the mainstream of thought here. Nevertheless, I appreciate the spectrum of thought and opinions offered. Blessings and wisdom to all!

694 AFVetWife  Sat, May 16, 2009 5:08:19pm

re: #9 Catttt
I couldn't agree more! I am Catholic, conservative, patriotic, and proud of it all!

695 American Sabra  Sat, May 16, 2009 7:28:31pm

re: #665 zelnaga

Wow :) thanks for that!


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