Obama at Notre Dame

US News • Views: 2,768

President Obama is about to speak at Notre Dame’s commencement ceremony; here’s an open thread to discuss, as Alan Keyes and Randall Terry gnash their teeth, and the audience gives Obama a standing ovation…

UPDATE at 5/17/09 12:44:12 pm:

Here’s the Text of Obama’s Notre Dame speech. Since it’s the big issue for so many people, here’s what he said on the issue of abortion:

That’s when we begin to say, “Maybe we won’t agree on abortion, but we can still agree that this is a heart-wrenching decision for any woman to make, with both moral and spiritual dimensions. So let’s work together to reduce the number of women seeking abortions by reducing unintended pregnancies, and making adoption more available, and providing care and support for women who do carry their child to term. Let’s honor the conscience of those who disagree with abortion, and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women.”

Understand - I do not suggest that the debate surrounding abortion can or should go away. No matter how much we may want to fudge it - indeed, while we know that the views of most Americans on the subject are complex and even contradictory - the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable. Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature.

Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.

Jump to bottom

953 comments
1 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:20:51am

My Irish is fighting...

2 pat  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:20:53am

Teleprompter?

3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:20:53am

I would stand too.

4 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:21:47am

The Office is still very important.

5 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:23:30am

re: #4 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Office is still very important.

I never did really like that show. Only watched it twice.....

6 solomonpanting  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:24:02am

"And in closing, let me remind you that little acorns grow up to be community organizers."

7 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:24:28am

Fox News is heavily promoting the protesters, of course.

8 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:25:48am

There's been a lot of stupid outrage from the right over this. It's another sad turn that the right no longer respects the Presidency.

9 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:26:43am

Will he apologize for the USA allowing abortions when he was three or will he stay to script and apologize there werent more of them, and that it was never his fault?

10 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:26:45am

re: #7 Charles

IIRC, this is still America and we still have the right to protest, as long as it's done peacefully. Were Keyes and Terry arrested for advocating violence, or were they vocal in their opposition to БХО?

11 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:26:59am

re: #7 Charles

Fox News is heavily promoting the protesters, of course.

I noticed that as I switched between cable news channels. Fox is doing a split screen with the 50 student protesters on one side.

12 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #10 Macker

I think it was trespassing.

13 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:28:20am

re: #10 Macker

IIRC, this is still America and we still have the right to protest, as long as it's done peacefully. Were Keyes and Terry arrested for advocating violence, or were they vocal in their opposition to БХО?

They were arrested for trespassing on to the ND campus.

14 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:28:32am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Thanks. Then they broke the rules.

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:29:24am

The person taking the anti-abortion side on CNN just said that if it had been Rudy Giuliani or Arnold Schwarzenegger giving the speech, the angry reaction would have been exactly the same.

I do not believe that for one second.

16 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:29:55am

I'd rather have Professor Michio Kaku speaking at my commencement than any President. But that's just me.

17 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:30:53am

re: #16 Timbre

I'll agree with you on that one.

18 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:30:59am

re: #8 Killgore Trout


The "religious" right, you mean. Myself, I have full respect for the office..that is why I voted for some one qualified and serious enough to be in it.

Those who have no respect for the office will simply vote for anyone based on something besides qualification and seriousness.

19 Gella  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:31:36am

picture from Drudge
[Link: d.yimg.com...]

20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:31:38am

Okay this is my first comment ever so be kind. But it really bothers me that he had to enter all on his own. To me it makes the graduation all about Obama. The ego of the man. If he were truly part of the Commencement he would have entered with the rest of the platform party. Whether you agree with him being there or not it should not be all about him and by entering in the way he did it does. I spent 11 years working for a small graduate school and my favorite part of the year was Commencement because it was a celebration of these kids great accomplishments. It was a happy time and the honorary degree participants were there for the graduates. Being respectful of the President and the Office is fine but he showed no respect for the ceremonial nature of a Commencement. He should be a participant not the star.

21 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:32:34am
22 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #18 quiet man

The "religious" right, you mean. Myself, I have full respect for the office..that is why I voted for some one qualified and serious enough to be in it.

Those who have no respect for the office will simply vote for anyone based on something besides qualification and seriousness.

Which is what 52% of the American electorate did.

23 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:34:01am

Charles looks more humanlike today. Evolution!

24 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:35:24am

re: #20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica


I think we have seen this with Obama.. is always about him personally.

Rev Wright, foreign policy, it happened "when he was 3",

He is worse than Bill Clinton in self realization.

25 BLBfootballs  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:35:27am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

There's been a lot of stupid outrage from the right over this. It's another sad turn that the right no longer respects the Presidency.

This isn't about respecting the presidency -- it's about Notre Dame hosting a commencement speaker who rejects one of the university's core values and is in a position to influence public policy about those values.

26 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:35:38am

It's TelePrompTer Jesus versus Touchdown Jesus!

/place yer bets

27 Miss Trixie  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:35:41am

re: #20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica

Upschwingading!

28 Shug  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:35:48am

Did Alan Keyes protest when Norte Dame employed that radical Islamist, can't remember his name ?

29 DEZes  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:36:03am

re: #23 debutaunt

Charles looks more humanlike today. Evolution!

My tail just fell off.

30 SlartyBartfast  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:36:19am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

There's been a lot of stupid outrage from the right over this. It's another sad turn that the right no longer respects the Presidency.

Stupid outrage, yes. And, yes, the Constitution established a noble, respectable office.

Too bad we don't have a President that commands respect. We have a celebrity figurehead in the oval office who's never operated anything as complicated as a lemonade stand. He's not qualified to be dog-catcher in a small town.

Plus, he hates America.

*spit

31 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:36:28am

I skipped my commencement. I didn't see the point of sitting there with 8000 people I didn't know, listening to trite speeches. I went out to a nice dinner with my family and a few friends.

32 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:37:01am

re: #15 Charles

The person taking the anti-abortion side on CNN just said that if it had been Rudy Giuliani or Arnold Schwarzenegger giving the speech, the angry reaction would have been exactly the same.

I do not believe that for one second.

Makes me wonder how many of the protesters are Nirthers.

There are times when I wish that the Nirthers and troofers would get a frickin' life.

33 Shug  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:37:21am

re: #20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica

Okay this is my first comment ever so be kind. But it really bothers me that he had to enter all on his own. To me it makes the graduation all about Obama. The ego of the man. If he were truly part of the Commencement he would have entered with the rest of the platform party. Whether you agree with him being there or not it should not be all about him and by entering in the way he did it does. I spent 11 years working for a small graduate school and my favorite part of the year was Commencement because it was a celebration of these kids great accomplishments. It was a happy time and the honorary degree participants were there for the graduates. Being respectful of the President and the Office is fine but he showed no respect for the ceremonial nature of a Commencement. He should be a participant not the star.


Well he is the President.

I'm sure other presidents entered in a similar fashion.
agree or disagree with him, it's a pretty big deal having the POTUS at your graduation

PS: welcome!

34 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:37:33am

Well... I never thought I'd say or think this, but Randall Terry sounded eminently coherent and sensible just now..........

35 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:38:12am

I'm glad Fox news is reporting the alternate graduation ceremony. As a Catholic, and a convert from being an atheist, I am very unhappy that this Notre Dame has made the decision to invite this particular president--who is aggressively for abortion. I can't imagine Brandeis inviting the President, if he continues his weak support of Israel, which I think is masking NO support for Israel. Having said this, I do not think this is about Obama, to me, it is about the university's identity as a Catholic institution. What does that mean? Nothing? Is this going to change the President's mind about his position, beliefs, or even acts? No. So where's the honor for the university? I'll quote Steve McQueen in the Cincinnati Kid, "What good is honor if you're dead?" and the rejoinder from Ann Margaret, "What good is life without honor?"
What I don't like about the coverage for both Fox and CNN, the only stations here that are covering this, is that neither is letting us hear the speakers at Notre Dame as they come to the podium. I want to hear what all of them have to say.

36 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:38:51am

re: #32 Steffan

Makes me wonder how many of the protesters are Nirthers.

There are times when I wish that the Nirthers and troofers would get a frickin' life.

And what if they aren't? Are you still going to tell them to get a life?

37 Spiritualized  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:38:54am

Silver lining in the Credit Crunch? The English print version of Der Steurmer is going bust, no not The Guardian, the other one:

Independent begs a month to sort out debt

The future of the owner of The Independent newspaper has been in serious doubt after the group failed to reach an agreement with bondholders over a €200m (£178m) bond.

Spread it around, hopefully we can speed it along.

38 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:39:59am

re: #25 BLBfootballs


This isn't about respecting the presidency -- it's about Notre Dame hosting a commencement speaker who rejects one of the university's core values and is in a position to influence public policy about those values.


Nonsense. The University invited him. They want him to speak. Most American Catholics support abortion rights and stem cell research. Most American Catholics voted for him and they support him.

39 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:40:13am

re: #20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica

Being respectful of the President and the Office is fine but he showed no respect for the ceremonial nature of a Commencement. He should be a participant not the star.

I think the reason colleges chose re: #25 BLBfootballs

This isn't about respecting the presidency -- it's about Notre Dame hosting a commencement speaker who rejects one of the university's core values and is in a position to influence public policy about those values.


Apparently the university and the bulk of it's student disagree with you. Universities have always allowed a wide range of opinions to be discussed openly. ND wanted the POTUS to speak, as did the students.

40 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:40:14am

re: #20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica

Okay this is my first comment ever so be kind. But it really bothers me that he had to enter all on his own. To me it makes the graduation all about Obama. The ego of the man. If he were truly part of the Commencement he would have entered with the rest of the platform party. Whether you agree with him being there or not it should not be all about him and by entering in the way he did it does. I spent 11 years working for a small graduate school and my favorite part of the year was Commencement because it was a celebration of these kids great accomplishments. It was a happy time and the honorary degree participants were there for the graduates. Being respectful of the President and the Office is fine but he showed no respect for the ceremonial nature of a Commencement. He should be a participant not the star.

You hit the nail squarely on the head.

Our Narcissist-In-Chief really does think it's all about him.

If he was at a funeral, he'd want to be the corpse.

41 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:40:37am

re: #15 Charles

I agree with you. Neither Rudy nor Arnold are for partial Birth abortions..Obama is, and with the Sebelius nomination, the idea is hammered home just how far Obama is from the tenets of the University, and their own guidelines for who may get an honorary degree.

42 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:40:39am

Had Obama been president during the Civil War (okay, don't start...picture him Caucasian for a moment), would he have tried to find ' common ground' on the issue of slavery?

43 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:40:44am
44 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:41:01am

re: #30 SlartyBartfast

Plus, he hates America.


I see much more anti-American sentiment from the Tea Party crowd than I do from Obama.

45 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:41:05am

I think if it had been Rudy, it would have been the same because the students and faculty who are Democrats would have then taken the issue for themselves. Both sides have political components and unfortunately, both use these issues self-righteously. Both. It is one thing to invite the president--it is another to confer on him or her the highest honor. As I hear them speaking about how hard it is to get an honorary law degree? Ha.

46 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:41:20am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Nonsense. The University invited him. They want him to speak. Most American Catholics support abortion rights and stem cell research. Most American Catholics voted for him and they support him.

And those Catholics who did that are making the same mistake as those Jews who also voted for him.

47 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:41:42am

re: #40 Steffan

From a quote about #42: ' Bill Clinton, the bride at every wedding, the corpse at every wake'.

48 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:42:01am

re: #42 tradewind

He would tout Change You Can Believe In™.

49 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:42:40am

Not at all nonsense. Some people do have values and want them upheld. Some even choose to belong to organizations or to attend institutions where these values are upheld. I think it is disrespectful of others' views not to recognize this.

50 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:42:57am

re: #46 Macker

I agree with you.

51 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:43:44am

re: #22 Macker


That 52% includes the full 48% of republicans who voted and the 4%fringe group leftests who swallowed everything hook line and sinker.

*l*

52 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:43:48am

re: #48 Macker

I just get the feeling that on even the greatest moral issues of our time.... slavery, integration, the buying and selling of children.... you name it... he would trot out the common ground straw horse.

53 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:43:57am

re: #36 Macker

And what if they aren't? Are you still going to tell them to get a life?

If they aren't Nirthers, they already have a life. I don't have to tell them anything.

54 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:44:22am

re: #46 Macker

Republicans got a whopping 20% of the Jewish vote.

55 Shug  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:44:28am

re: #49 katemaclaren

Not at all nonsense. Some people do have values and want them upheld. Some even choose to belong to organizations or to attend institutions where these values are upheld. I think it is disrespectful of others' views not to recognize this.


I agree with that 100%.
The problem becomes when the lunatics infiltrate people who have the best intentions and spoil the spirit of the protest.

I hate it that these opportunist whores glom onto legitimate, moral people who have a legitimate ( and respectful )protest of the POTUS and his positions

56 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:44:28am

re: #39 avanti

The university may be Catholic, but the student body and the faculty and staff most certainly is not 100 percent Catholic.

57 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:44:43am

re: #7 Charles

Fox News is heavily promoting the protesters, of course.

Wo took over Charles' avatar? There's some red neck in that picture instead of the cool Lizard king./

58 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:44:46am

Just wondering, but up until January 20th DISSENT was very patriotic, according to bumper stickers I would see on cars sporting Obama and/ or Hillary sticker also'

So ,,, is dissent still patriotic?

59 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:44:57am
60 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:45:09am

So what do you call a baby that has been aborted, then lives? Mr. President? Present?

61 SlartyBartfast  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:45:33am

Honorary degree time...

BHO, Doctor of Law, "..he is inspiring this nation to heal it's divisions of religion and race..."

Bull-$hit. He wears his race as a badge of victimhood though he's never known personal hardship or discrimination.

How far into his speech before he bashes the nation that's given him so much?

62 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:45:35am

re: #47 tradewind

From a quote about #42: ' Bill Clinton, the bride at every wedding, the corpse at every wake'.

Now that is funny! Thank God, someone with a sense of humor! Thanks!

63 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:45:53am

I just got an email from some dip in Qatar with just this one message: "I love Palestine." Yeah right, like he has ever even been to "Palestine."

64 NelsFree  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:46:07am

I heard that there was a protest at the campus Chapel this morning. A Streaker ran down the aisle. Secret Service was on hand, and they caught him by the organ.

/

65 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:46:36am

What can be done to stop this dictatorial juggernaut?

Maybe API will finally release that tape of Michelle Obama. Then the world will hear and know.

No?

ODS: the fun disease.

66 jones  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:46:58am

re: #56 katemaclaren


No, but the Institution is Catholic. ND was wrong to affiliate with Obama's didordered position.

That said, if I were Obama, I would not want to affiliate with ND.

67 ladycatnip  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:47:12am

#16 Timbre

I'd rather have Professor Michio Kaku speaking at my commencement than any President. But that's just me.

YES! I have his book on my nightstand (Physics of the Impossible) and read a little every night. Then I have to re-read what I read because my little mind doesn't retain it for very long. Need some mental Velcro.

68 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:47:23am

re: #38 Killgore Trout
The university did invite him..but it looks like those who did the invite do not have the full support of the people who go there and give them money.

69 NelsFree  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:48:04am

re: #20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica


You are apparently off to a good start, CRISM.

70 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:48:04am

re: #22 Macker

Which is what 52% of the American electorate did.

Well, to be fair, it is what 52% of Americans who voted did. According to this site (and the percentages appear to be what I've read elsewhere):

U.S. Elections Project

The (rounded off) percentage of VEP (Voter Eligible Population) was 62% (pretty darn high!).

If 52% of the voters who turned out voted for President Obama, that's actually 52% of 62%, which means about 32% of eligible American voters voted for him.

But, he did win, and was voted into office by people who actually took the time to get out and vote.

71 brookly red  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:48:05am

re: #42 tradewind

Had Obama been president during the Civil War (okay, don't start...picture him Caucasian for a moment), would he have tried to find ' common ground' on the issue of slavery?

that is a weird thought... I don't know how someone would be able to say 'government could do a better job than the private sector', on that one.

72 jones  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:48:33am

disordered, Sigh.

I wish Charles woul put an easy to use spell checker right under the text box.

73 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:48:57am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Nonsense. The University invited him. They want him to speak. Most American Catholics support abortion rights and stem cell research. Most American Catholics voted for him and they support him.

linky ?

74 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:49:00am

re: #39 avanti

Universities have always allowed a wide range of opinions to be discussed openly.

What planet do you live on?

/and do they have political correctness there?

75 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:49:35am

re: #56 katemaclaren

The university may be Catholic, but the student body and the faculty and staff most certainly is not 100 percent Catholic.

Students 80% Catholic, facility 50%.

76 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:49:50am

re: #73 sattv4u2

linky ?

sorry ,, didn't see it , thanks

77 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:50:21am

Michelle Malkin proudly links to today's Tea Party in California.
click on the "EVEN MORE PICS!" link and see pic #11. There are also signs supporting Ron Paul's legislation to audit the Fed. They've become Paulians.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:50:25am

re: #10 Macker

IIRC, this is still America and we still have the right to protest, as long as it's done peacefully. Were Keyes and Terry arrested for advocating violence, or were they vocal in their opposition to БХО?

Keyes was arrested for refusing to leave private property, IIRC.

79 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:50:36am

re: #64 NelsFree

Um..."Don't jerk me Bro?"

80 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:50:49am

re: #35 katemaclaren

... I can't imagine Brandeis inviting the President, if he continues his weak support of Israel, which I think is masking NO support for Israel. ...

Brandeis invited Jimmy Carter.

/but not to give the commencement address.

81 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:51:11am

re: #73 sattv4u2

linky ?

A majority of Catholics voted for Obama:

Nationally, Obama captured 53% of the Catholic vote, a 13-point swing from 2004 and the largest advantage among the group for a Democrat since Bill Clinton.

82 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:51:11am

re: #72 jones

disordered, Sigh.

I wish Charles woul put an easy to use spell checker right under the text box.

If you use Safari, which this web site is optimized for, you have a built in spell checker.

83 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:51:20am

re: #42 tradewind

Had Obama been president during the Civil War (okay, don't start...picture him Caucasian for a moment), would he have tried to find ' common ground' on the issue of slavery?

I think he'd have been a Copperhead Democrat. There wouldn't have been a war at all.

The Goreacle would be the current president of the Confederate States of America, likely Rudy Giuliani would be POTUS, and the CSA-USA border would look like the Maginot Line.

84 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:51:52am

re: #73 sattv4u2


linky ?


Yes, there's a link in the quote you replied to.

85 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:02am

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I see much more anti-American sentiment from the Tea Party crowd than I do from Obama.

that's because you only see what you wish to.....

86 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:07am

re: #72 jones

disordered, Sigh.

I wish Charles woul put an easy to use spell checker right under the text box.

Strike two!

/

87 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:13am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Michelle Malkin proudly links to today's Tea Party in California.
click on the "EVEN MORE PICS!" link and see pic #11. There are also signs supporting Ron Paul's legislation to audit the Fed. They've become Paulians.

And what do you know about Rob Paul?
////////////////////////////////////////////

88 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:23am

re: #81 Charles

Thanks Charles ,, I corrected myself in #76

89 jones  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:34am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

If you use Safari, which this web site is optimized for, you have a built in spell checker.

I am just too lazy or stupid to use the one Charels' provides. A little humor. Thanks for the tip.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:51am

re: #28 Shug

Did Alan Keyes protest when Norte Dame employed that radical Islamist, can't remember his name ?

Not that I am aware of, but it's possible. If you recall the name, you may be able to Google them together.

91 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:51am

re: #70 subsailor68


I do not believe that those who voted for Obama had any idea about who they were voting for. Most liekly they voted on a "what" or as an "against"

Obama did win, and now the left and right are learning exactly who he is...the left having the furthest distance to fall.

92 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:52:53am

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Yes, there's a link in the quote you replied to.

thanks ,,,see #76

93 gmsc  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:53:00am

re: #6 solomonpanting

"And in closing, let me remind you that little acorns grow up to be community organizers."

Better line for 0bama: "I am a little ACORN. That fact is plain to see. But remember that the mighty oak, was once a nut like me!"

94 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:53:15am

re: #72 jones

disordered, Sigh.

I wish Charles woul put an easy to use spell checker right under the text box.

I wish you'd look at the buttons right under the text box...

95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:53:25am

re: #20 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica

I think there are security issues that factor into the entrance and exit of a President of the United States.

96 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:53:28am

re: #39 avanti

Allowing a wide diversity of opinion? Say that the next time someone prominent on the right gets a pie thrown in their face when addressing a supposedly tolerant University student body.

97 jones  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:53:29am

Alright, I'm quitting while I'm behind.

98 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:53:45am

re: #63 Alouette

I just got an email from some dip in Qatar with just this one message: "I love Palestine." Yeah right, like he has ever even been to "Palestine."

Why not tell him "PALESTINE DELENDA EST" and see what he says....

99 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:53:50am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

There's been a lot of stupid outrage from the right over this. It's another sad turn that the right no longer respects the Presidency.

Perhaps the "right" has enough respect for the Presidency to protest the actions of Obama.

100 gmsc  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:54:08am

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I see much more anti-American sentiment from the Tea Party crowd than I do from Obama.

That speaks more about your view of America than it does about the Tea Party crowd or 0bama.

101 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:54:10am

re: #95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think there are security issues that factor into the entrance and exit of a President of the United States.

OT - hi.

102 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:54:22am

re: #85 redc1c4

See my link at #77. Hanging elected officals in effigy, mock beheading, 9-11 truth. I know you guys see that as patriotism but I don't.

103 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:54:28am

re: #94 Charles

I wish you'd look at the buttons right under the text box...

me'thinks he forgot the / tag (at least thats how i read it0

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:54:33am

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

Whaddup Mr. Man!?

105 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:54:43am

The California tea party:

Image: 616_12425240111.jpg

106 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:55:09am

re: #100 gmsc

See #102.

107 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

If you use Safari, which this web site is optimized for, you have a built in spell checker.

Same with Firefox.

108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:55:34am

Okay! Bye! Watching "Life After People".

109 fizzlogic  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:55:40am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

I think Firefox has a spell checker. Although, I use Safari on my Mac due, not only to the spellchecker, but also the built in dictionary.

110 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:55:46am

re: #105 Charles

Thanks, I wasn't sure I could get a direct link.

111 ladycatnip  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:55:53am

#20 ClosetRepublicaninSantaMonica

...It was a happy time and the honorary degree participants were there for the graduates. Being respectful of the President and the Office is fine but he showed no respect for the ceremonial nature of a Commencement. He should be a participant not the star.

We welcome your comments!

Yes, completely agree with you that it's always about him. Just as I posted on a previous thread, Obama now calls the WH "my house". Unbelievable arrogance, with no respect for the sacred trust of his office.

Q: And the last movie you saw?

Now, movies I've been doing OK [with] because it turns out we got this nice theater on the ground floor of my house … So Star Trek, we saw this weekend, which I thought was good. Everybody was saying I was Spock, so I figured I should check it out and--[the president makes the Vulcan salute with his hand].

So The One likes to be called Mr. Spock, eh? That is bad enough, but the fact that he so automatically called the White House "my house" is simply as arrogant as it comes. It isn't "your" house Mr. President. It's the people's! The man's sense of entitlement is disgusting.

112 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:55:53am

re: #96 FurryOldGuyJeans

Allowing a wide diversity of opinion? Say that the next time someone prominent on the right gets a pie thrown in their face when addressing a supposedly tolerant University student body.

I don't agree with the pie in the face, but you made my point that they were invited. BHO has and the righty that got the pie, both deserve to be heard.

113 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:56:02am

re: #70 subsailor68

Well, to be fair, it is what 52% of Americans who voted did. According to this site (and the percentages appear to be what I've read elsewhere):

U.S. Elections Project

The (rounded off) percentage of VEP (Voter Eligible Population) was 62% (pretty darn high!).

If 52% of the voters who turned out voted for President Obama, that's actually 52% of 62%, which means about 32% of eligible American voters voted for him.

But, he did win, and was voted into office by people who actually took the time to get out and vote.

you forgot this part "with the help of massive voter fraud, illegal campaign donations and a deliberate effort by the MFM to get him elected."

114 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:56:03am

re: #105 Charles

That's now considered patriotism.

115 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:56:12am

re: #100 gmsc

That speaks more about your view of America than it does about the Tea Party crowd or 0bama.

Isn't it funny how the left thought protest was patriotic until the ONE got in office? Now, protest is nothing more than an obstruction that may possibly delay their free healthcare for all.

116 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:56:37am

I wonder if there would have been this much uproar if it were Ahmajenidad would have been the speaker..The defense would have been the same, given the direction and all, but would the offense be so?

117 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:56:40am

re: #66 jones

No, but the Institution is Catholic. ND was wrong to affiliate with Obama's didordered position.

That said, if I were Obama, I would not want to affiliate with ND.


Obama doesn't care where the love comes from, as long as he is loved by the masses.

118 Bloodnok  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:56:50am

re: #99 Wendya

Perhaps the "right" has enough respect for the Presidency to protest the actions of Obama.

I may have heard a similar argument between 2001 and 2009, but I can't remember by whom and about whom.

119 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:57:11am

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

Image: 616_12425266201.jpg

120 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:57:15am

re: #113 redc1c4

MFM: Mother Frakkin' Media?

121 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:57:22am

re: #91 quiet man

I do not believe that those who voted for Obama had any idea about who they were voting for. Most liekly they voted on a "what" or as an "against"

Obama did win, and now the left and right are learning exactly who he is...the left having the furthest distance to fall.

my neighbor voted for him because he was black.

122 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:57:48am

re: #111 ladycatnip

Humor deficit, much?

123 S'latch  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:57:52am

re: #94 Charles

Its amazsing how manny wishis comm true on Littlegreenfootballs.

124 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:57:54am

re: #44 Killgore Trout

I don't. AND I've been to one of the Tea Parties.

125 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:57:55am

re: #89 jones

I am just too lazy or stupid to use the one Charels' provides. A little humor. Thanks for the tip.

Who is Charel? /

126 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:58:08am

re: #121 redc1c4

Ah, so your neighbor is Racist?

127 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:58:17am
128 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:58:17am

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

In this weather, an iced-tea party would be attractive.

129 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:58:20am

And another one:

Image: 616_12425270861.jpg

130 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:00am

re: #104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whaddup Mr. Man!?

Spring is here in Golden, Colorado, although I wish I was up the hill at my girlfriends, sitting on her back porch with her in the mountains, looking down through the pines to the gulch below.

But alas, have a show later today of course, so she's up there, I'm down in the foothills.

This weekend and the rest of the run (2 more week) are basically sold out. We got a good mention in the Denver Post Sunday theatre column today as being one of the more stable and artistically merited theatre's in the state. It was an article about the economy and the closing many small theatre groups.

How's your day.

131 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:01am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

re: #105 Charles

So it's announced on radio , TV etc that a Tea party is planned on such and such a date/ time in your city/ town and a couple of nutcases show up with weird views, that discredits the tea party itself ,,, ? how !?!?!?

Remember,,,, they are being held in OPEN PUBLIC PLACES. Charels, just yesterday you posted a video of Cynthia Mckinney giving an anti-Israeli / pro Pali rant. Walking behind her was a person with a sign saying that Palis hide weapons in schools and hospitals. Deso that sign holder negate Mckinneys views?

132 Bloodnok  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:07am

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

Shhhhh. It's the right doing the protesting. It's just this time. it's all under control.

/

133 snowcrash  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:21am

Notre Dame should NOT have invited Pres. Obama in the first place. A Catholic University should NOT concern itself more with prestige than moral authority. I will be interested to see how long before the University president is recalled to Rome for either a talking to or a reassignment. The president of Notre Dame has failed his faith in his inability to be a live witness for the doctrine of the church. An educator/religious role model should hold himself to a higher standard.

134 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:25am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

If you use Safari, which this web site is optimized for, you have a built in spell checker.

Firefox has one as well. Sometimes I have to fight with it, the dictionary base is meager.

Now if they had a syntax checker as well, *sigh*

135 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:28am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

See my link at #77. Hanging elected officals in effigy, mock beheading, 9-11 truth. I know you guys see that as patriotism but I don't.

you know nothing about what i consider to be patriotism, and there was nothing remotely like that at the protest i attended.

you might want to back off the slander.

136 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:32am

re: #66 jones

No, but the Institution is Catholic. ND was wrong to affiliate with Obama's didordered position.

That said, if I were Obama, I would not want to affiliate with ND.

Yes. Result: Cognitive dissonance. Fugue state.

137 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:46am

re: #118 Bloodnok

I may have heard a similar argument between 2001 and 2009, but I can't remember by whom and about whom.

I have no problem with protests.

What I do have a problem with is the slavering morons who are attaching themselves to Obamas free ride train and sniping at those of us who don't agree with them. Sorry, I don't do the "fall down in adoration" thing over politicians.

138 baldeagle  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:51am

As a ND alumnus, 1967,,I cry for my school, the former Catholic University. I have cut all my ties[except for a nephew who is going into his senior year]. This really is a sad day and the only person or persons who come out of this with their principles intact are Mary Glendon who turned down the Laetare Medal and the students who held their alternate graduation at the Grotto. I salute them and pray that they continue to stand up for what they know is correct. Shame on ND.

139 Gus  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:56am

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

OMG

140 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 11:59:58am

re: #91 quiet man

I do not believe that those who voted for Obama had any idea about who they were voting for. Most liekly they voted on a "what" or as an "against"

Obama did win, and now the left and right are learning exactly who he is...the left having the furthest distance to fall.

You may well be right. I just don't know. My (admittedly uneducated) guess is that some knew precisely what he stood for, while others simply wanted "change" and never really understood his background. Bernie Goldberg's book "A Slobbering Love Affair" does indict the MSN for not providing sufficient coverage of his relationships (e.g. Wright and Ayers), his professional background, or his political leanings.

(However, Goldberg does say that the MSM did finally pick up on some of these issues, but only after being forced to do so after they had been raised by other, non-traditional sources. Kind of like what Charles accomplished with the Rather memo issue.)

141 Kobalt  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:00pm

Anyone have a link to this speech in streaming format?
Thanks in advance!

142 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:05pm

re: #113 redc1c4


Yes, but you discount such things when it Obama

/sarc

143 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:07pm

re: #123 Lawrence Schmerel

Its amazsing how manny wishis comm true on Littlegreenfootballs.

huh?

144 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:08pm

re: #120 Macker

MFM: Mother Frakkin' Media?

i believe it's a Mandyism.... but yeah, more or less.

145 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:27pm

re: #124 katemaclaren

I don't. AND I've been to one of the Tea Parties.

Now you must understand, criticism of Obama's agenda is nothing more than racism and anti-Americanism.

//

146 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:29pm

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

What the hell are they hanging? I know it is a person in effigy, but what is it supposed to represent?

147 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:31pm
148 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:47pm

re: #33 Shug

Well he is the President.

I'm sure other presidents entered in a similar fashion.
agree or disagree with him, it's a pretty big deal having the POTUS at your graduation

PS: welcome!

Thanks, but two things struck me. Chris Wallace was expecting him to be with the platform party. I don't recall any other President entering separately. The other thing is that they played Hail to the Chief. Now whether that was Notre Dame's decision or POTUS it was just tacky and put all attention on him. At the service academies yes, but a private university.

149 brookly red  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:49pm

re: #128 debutaunt

In this weather, an iced-tea party would be attractive.

Long Island Iced :)

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:55pm

re: #53 Steffan

If they aren't Nirthers, they already have a life. I don't have to tell them anything.

Mostly off topic. There's this woman on one of my lists who's driving me insane. I've bitched about her Nirther beliefs before. The list coordinator has banned Nirther stuff, but she continues to send us, well, articles.

One of them was by Caroline Glick, advocating that Israel form alliances with Egypt and the Vatican. One of our other members briefly commented on why this seemed a poor idea.

Nirther lady told he he was nuts to think that Egypt or the Vatican could ever be partners in peace. Where did he get such an idea?

I asked if she, then, disagreed with Glick, just trying to get some bearing on what the hell I was supposed to understand from the article.

I got a nice note back explaining to me that Hamas and Fatah want to destroy Israel, and no country can countenance its own destruction.

I now have no idea whether she read the article or not, and I suspect from experience that if I persist in wanting to discuss Glick's ideas, I will go on this lady's Naughty list, for the sin of not loving Israel enough. I don't really care about Glick's column, which I didn't think was terribly good (not her best at all), but I hate it when these conversations crash and burn over and over.

All of our conversations go like this. Any attempt at critical thinking, or indeed rational thinking, is firmly squished. It's annoying as hell.

Rant over now.

151 UncleRancher  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:56pm

I have been watching this for a while and the only conclusion I can reach is: There is no purity anymore.

152 LC LaWedgie  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:58pm

Obama getting a little squirmy about the "common good" comments.

153 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

Where are the sad-eyed giant papier-mâché puppets of taxpayers being raped by jack-booted guvmint thugs?

154 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:01:20pm

re: #127 buzzsawmonkey

Obama, or your neighbor? Or both?

she's white, jewish and w*rking on her masters....

155 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:01:35pm

The President of ND? Aiding and Abetting the coronation.

156 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:01:58pm

re: #134 FurryOldGuyJeans

Firefox has one as well. Sometimes I have to fight with it, the dictionary base is meager.

Now if they had a syntax checker as well, *sigh*

You have to figure out your own sin tax.

157 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:07pm

re: #141 Kobalt

Anyone have a link to this speech in streaming format?
Thanks in advance!

Do you really want to subject yourself to his mesmerizing poison?

158 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:15pm

re: #121 redc1c4

And that is a shame...It too often happens, tho. It is never what a person is that should matter..it is who

159 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:19pm

re: #146 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah-nold.

160 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:23pm

re: #58 sattv4u2

Just wondering, but up until January 20th DISSENT was very patriotic, according to bumper stickers I would see on cars sporting Obama and/ or Hillary sticker also'

So ,,, is dissent still patriotic?

Yes, indeed. And most of the demonstrators out there are simply pro-life persons who want to be heard.

However, no one ever guaranteed being agreed with just because you dissented.

161 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:25pm

re: #151 UncleRancher

I have been watching this for a while and the only conclusion I can reach is: There is no purity anymore.

There never was. The Golden Age myth is just that.

162 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:29pm

re: #111 ladycatnip

#20 ClosetRepublicaninSantaMonica

Amazing the mountain you can find in the tiniest molehills. It is his house while he's living there. If you renting a home, would you invite friends over to the house you rent from the landlord, or say "come over to my house"or is that arrogance ?

163 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:33pm

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

WTF!

164 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:38pm

re: #129 Charles

And another one:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

Ok, I'll bite. Who's face is that? Is it a lame attempt to show said person as a crusading force in politics?

Political Idiocy is becoming a Pandemic.

165 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:54pm

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

You have to figure out your own sin tax.

what wages will we get paid?

166 lost of earth  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:02:55pm

re: #146 FurryOldGuyJeans

I believe it was the Arnie pinata.

167 Bloodnok  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #137 Wendya

I have no problem with protests.

What I do have a problem with is the slavering morons who are attaching themselves to Obamas free ride train and sniping at those of us who don't agree with them. Sorry, I don't do the "fall down in adoration" thing over politicians.

Again, same arguments the left used when they weren't in power.

168 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:03:16pm

I'm wondering if the teleprompters are in place.

169 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:03:17pm

The speaker has it wrong... it's not that Obama wants/seeks out such collegial dialogue and communication. It's that he's so arrogant he believes that no matter his position, he can have adoration from those who disagree with him because he is just so freakin' cool.
Just sayin'.

170 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:03:28pm

re: #164 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ok, I'll bite. Who's face is that? Is it a lame attempt to show said person as a crusading force in politics?

Political Idiocy is becoming a Pandemic.

Ahnold the Governator, I would guess

171 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #161 Cato the Elder

There never was. The Golden Age myth is just that.

Big giant kudo on that statement. Through a lens darkly, most eyes see.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:03:46pm

re: #59 Iron Fist

You have to go far afield indeed to find someone more pro-abortion (and let's face it. It is pro-abortion. They have no respect that I have see if the woman chooses to bear the child. c.f. Trig Palin) than Obama. The only person I can name with conficdence is Peter Singer. I know of no one to the Left of Singer on the issue anywhere in the world.

I am pro-choice, and not at all pro-abortion, so if I am THEY, than your stats may need some tinkering.

173 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:03:53pm

Peace, love, dialog, courtesy, dialog, respect, dialog, let's all be friends....
- Father Jenkins

Whassup!
- Obama

174 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:04:03pm

re: #148 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica

Thanks, but two things struck me. Chris Wallace was expecting him to be with the platform party. I don't recall any other President entering separately. The other thing is that they played Hail to the Chief. Now whether that was Notre Dame's decision or POTUS it was just tacky and put all attention on him. At the service academies yes, but a private university.

God, I hate to think what the attitude will be if he shows up at West Point, Annapolis, or Colorado Springs....

175 brookly red  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:04:08pm

re: #165 redc1c4

what wages will we get paid?

/it is written that the wages of tax are debt.

176 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:04:18pm

re: #168 katemaclaren

TOTUS is in the house.
Vice TOTUS is standing by, you can bet.

177 IslandLibertarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:04:31pm

The Catholic Church is anti-abortion.
Notre Dame is a Catholic University.
Obama is pro-abortion. (His first act was to pay for abortions outside the United States)
Gee, imagine that. Catholis protesting Obama speaking at Notre Dame.

(by the way, I support women rights to choose)
(I also support Catholics the right to protest)

178 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:04:33pm

re: #165 redc1c4

what wages will we get paid?

Our wages sinfully go to the death tax.

179 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:04:36pm

re: #166 lost of earth

I believe it was the Arnie pinata.

Couldn't prove it by me.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:04:51pm

re: #63 Alouette

I just got an email from some dip in Qatar with just this one message: "I love Palestine." Yeah right, like he has ever even been to "Palestine."

He prefers to love Palestine from a distance.

/

181 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:05:14pm

As I'm watching, I'm getting angrier. This is not about Notre Dame graduates, it is about BO. This is disgraceful. Remember when there were protests about Barbara Bush being speaker at Wellesley?

182 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:05:19pm

re: #133 snowcrash

Notre Dame should NOT have invited Pres. Obama in the first place. A Catholic University should NOT concern itself more with prestige than moral authority. I will be interested to see how long before the University president is recalled to Rome for either a talking to or a reassignment. The president of Notre Dame has failed his faith in his inability to be a live witness for the doctrine of the church. An educator/religious role model should hold himself to a higher standard.

I agree with you.
I did not like this decision; I let ND know; they told me "tough shit".
It has nothing to do with my respect for the office of the President of the U.S.

It has to do with my lack of respect for an institution which has failed its roots -

183 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:05:44pm

re: #140 subsailor68


So true..we have enough viewpoints that there is little excuse for voting on anything other than qualifications and beliefs. Even so, that part will always have a strong standing..votes based on looks, or some sort of gotcha

184 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:06:01pm

re: #169 tradewind

The speaker has it wrong... it's not that Obama wants/seeks out such collegial dialogue and communication. It's that he's so arrogant he believes that no matter his position, he can have adoration from those who disagree with him because he is just so freakin' cool.
Just sayin'.

Oh bullshit. He's the president of the US. He gets perks, he gets special treatment. Whether you agree with his policies or not, this is what he gets, this is what all presidents get, too bad, whining about this is ODS, plain and simple.

This is nothing new, why do we have to harp on it like FOX news and the other nuts.

185 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:06:31pm

re: #98 Macker

Why not tell him "PALESTINE DELENDA EST" and see what he says....

I'm thinking of sending him this "Palestine is for Lovers" picture.

186 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:06:33pm

re: #174 Macker

God, I hate to think what the attitude will be if he shows up at West Point, Annapolis, or Colorado Springs....

He'll be speaking at Annapolis in a few weeks.

187 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:06:36pm

re: #177 IslandLibertarian

IMO, whether or not you are pro or anti abortion rights, it's hard to justify Obama's yes vote on late term abortions, which are almost never medically necessary and which have crossed into the infanticide realm, since viability has dropped well into the second trimester.

188 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:06:45pm

re: #165 redc1c4

what wages will we get paid?

Whatever the government considers appropriate.

189 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:06:46pm

Okay. I see the teleprompters rising.

190 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:06:51pm

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Germany

191 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:07:21pm

re: #189 katemaclaren

Okay. I see the teleprompters rising.

Viagra for Prompters!?!?!?
//

192 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:07:23pm

i can't wait for football season, so USC can wipe the floor with Neuter Dame once again.

193 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:07:44pm

re: #119 Charles

There's video from the previous tea party of them waving Obama;s head on a spike while cutting off Arnold's head.

194 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:07:53pm

re: #66 jones

No, but the Institution is Catholic. ND was wrong to affiliate with Obama's didordered position.

That said, if I were Obama, I would not want to affiliate with ND.

Clearly, Obama's positions on abortion go directly against the teachings of the Church. OTOH, the Vatican vocally condemned the U.S. going into Iraq as a 'tragedy for humanity'. Can someone explain to me, without assuming ill-will on my part, if it would have been OK for ND to invite a Bush administration official to speak at their graduation? If so, why so? If not, why not?

195 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:07:56pm

I didn't really have a strong opinion either way on whether BHO should or should not be at ND today. I'm pro choice, but did not vote for BHO.

But I'll tell you one thing ... I am not at all impressed with ND President Jenkins and his remarks. I think the guy is a tool.

196 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:08:05pm

re: #186 avanti

He'll be speaking at Annapolis in a few weeks.

I may come to hear that, if it's open to the public. Or is it middies only?

197 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:08:12pm

He's reading "Congratulations to the Class of 2009..." from the teleprompter, I'll bet. Look at Jenkins grinning. What a wussy suck-up.

198 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:08:21pm

re: #191 sattv4u2

BHO's TOTUS uses cialis, so it can be ready any time.

199 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:08:33pm

re: #191 sattv4u2

Oh thank goodness! A laugh for us! Thank you! That's funny!

200 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:08:39pm

re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist

Clearly, Obama's positions on abortion go directly against the teachings of the Church. OTOH, the Vatican vocally condemned the U.S. going into Iraq as a 'tragedy for humanity'. Can someone explain to me, without assuming ill-will on my part, if it would have been OK for ND to invite a Bush administration official to speak at their graduation? If so, why so? If not, why not?

it would have been wrong because he's a Republican. (more or less)

201 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:08:40pm

re: #182 reine.de.tout

I agree with you.
I did not like this decision; I let ND know; they told me "tough shit".
It has nothing to do with my respect for the office of the President of the U.S.

It has to do with my lack of respect for an institution which has failed its roots -

Look, the Pope is against artificial birth control, many catholics are not, yet we don't protest the pope visits. There are different opinions all around, the guy is the president of the US, he's not even catholic, so what?

202 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:01pm

re: #184 Walter L. Newton

Oh bullshit. He's the president of the US. He gets perks, he gets special treatment. Whether you agree with his policies or not, this is what he gets, this is what all presidents get, too bad, whining about this is ODS, plain and simple.

This is nothing new, why do we have to harp on it like FOX news and the other nuts.

We are not all nuts who disagree with this decision of ND to invite Obama.
What happened to your earlier "I respect the beliefs" of that believer who allowed her daughter to die rather than get medical care for her?

Where is your "understanding" now?

203 Ojoe  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:06pm

IMHO it is madness to give this Obama a stranding ovation; he is mesmerizing & much of the country has been fooled by a man who can say "punished with a baby," and this springing directly from his insides and no teleprompter; and he should not have power over anybody, no, not when he can think of the most innocent miracle as a punishment, can think of another human being as a punishment, and forget that he himself was exactly a helpless miracle of a baby, and that we all, all start out like that.

And many citizens here voted for him to have such power. IMHO we are seriously off the track in this country, taken in by our own greed and selfishness, and worshipping something, but not really God, not in the average, not as gaged by how we vote or stay home and not vote.

Obama creeps me out and the country dismays me a lot these days.

204 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:17pm

The students seem outraged and offended.
/

205 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:18pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

There's video from the previous tea party of them waving Obama;s head on a spike while cutting off Arnold's head.

Now that really is ODS.

Yeah, reasoned discourse is so passé.

206 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:19pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

There's video from the previous tea party of them waving Obama;s head on a spike while cutting off Arnold's head.

all of "them"? ,,,, maost of "them"?.... some of "them? ,,, a few of "them" ,,,, a couple of "them" ,,,,

sure would be different depending on which one!

207 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:39pm

Heh.

208 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:43pm

re: #147 Iron Fist

Hi Iron Fist! It's hard to disagree with your premise that voters would turn out if they felt passionate about issues, and believed they had a viable candidate for whom they could vote. If the Republicans could articulate a platform based on lower taxes, fiscal responsibility, effective national security balanced by a commitment to individual liberty, and a sensible foreign policy...well, who knows?

209 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:09:48pm

re: #196 Cato the Elder

I may come to hear that, if it's open to the public. Or is it middies only?

I have tickets, because I sponsor mids, but they are hard to come by.

210 ladycatnip  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:18pm

#162 avanti

#20 ClosetRepublicaninSantaMonica

Amazing the mountain you can find in the tiniest molehills. It is his house while he's living there. If you renting a home, would you invite friends over to the house you rent from the landlord, or say "come over to my house"or is that arrogance ?

That's ridiculous. Obama's not renting anything and it certainly isn't "his house while he's living there" . He gets the privilege of living in the WH (not his house) during his tenure as POTUS. I can't remember any sitting prez ever referring to the WH as their house. It belongs to the people of this great nation.

Tacky beyond tacky. And we all know if Bush had ever said that the msm would be all over it.

211 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:19pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

Well, not in Philadelphia.

And someone is shouting! Good!

212 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:23pm

Ruh Roh......

213 lost of earth  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:29pm

Hecklers being removed.

214 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:34pm

re: #206 sattv4u2

them?


Yes, Mark and Todd (or whoever those radio guys are).

215 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:40pm

re: #209 avanti

I have tickets, because I sponsor mids, but they are hard to come by.

What if I promise to detail one of your Studebakers? ;^)

216 NelsFree  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:42pm

The ND President introduced him as, "a man who wants to rid the world of nuclear weapons".
Does anyone reallyy think that is possible?

217 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:52pm

What are they saying?

218 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:10:58pm

A temper tantrum. Classy.

219 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:11:22pm

Here go the kooks, screaming like maniacs. Audience booing them.

220 MandyManners  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:11:26pm

All these freakin' hecklers are doing is making FCBBHO look good.

SHUT UP, ALREADY!

221 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:11:30pm

Remember the good old days when Code Pink used to do this stuff.

222 lost of earth  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:11:39pm

re: #216 NelsFree
Only if you consider Israel and the US as "the world".

223 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:11:45pm

Oh way to go, BHO.
Defuse it with B'Ball.

224 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:12:11pm

re: #216 NelsFree

The ND President introduced him as, "a man who wants to rid the world of nuclear weapons".
Does anyone reallyy think that is possible?

Possible or not, all he wants to do is remove them from the US hoping the rest of the world will "see the light" and bask in his reflected glory.

225 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:12:17pm

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

What are they smoking, and why aren't they sharing?

Yesterday, John & Ken were feeding Ahnuld effigies into a shredder. They have a "Heads On A Stick" feature on their web page.

226 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:12:31pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

Yes, Mark and Todd (or whoever those radio guys are).

ahh ,RADIO media guys ,,,,

hmmmm,, can you say (or understand) FREE publicity. Who was the politician that said he didn't care what they said about him in the news, as long as they spelled his name right?

Your

227 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:12:32pm

re: #216 NelsFree

The ND President introduced him as, "a man who wants to rid the world of nuclear weapons".
Does anyone reallyy think that is possible?

IMHO, it seems highly unlikely. The story of Pandora's box has lasted for centuries because of its fundamental truth.

228 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:12:39pm

re: #219 Charles

Audience booing them, or Obama?

229 Bloodnok  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:12:40pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

A temper tantrum. Classy.

I'm sure the Malkins of the world will tout them as heroes for speaking truth to power -forgetting that she (and the right) spent the last 8 years criticizing this behavior from the Code Pink types.

230 IslandLibertarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:13:17pm

"0" speaks!
Protesters protest.
3 1/2 more years.
Get used to it.

231 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:13:18pm

re: #227 subsailor68

IMHO, it seems highly unlikely. The story of Pandora's box has lasted for centuries because of its fundamental truth.

And there is the parable about letting the Genie out of the bottle.

232 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:13:19pm

re: #202 reine.de.tout

We are not all nuts who disagree with this decision of ND to invite Obama.
What happened to your earlier "I respect the beliefs" of that believer who allowed her daughter to die rather than get medical care for her?

Where is your "understanding" now?

I was playing devils advocate earlier, if you didn't catch it. I thought the woman mentioned earlier was wrong, but I don't think she deserved any ragging from co-religionist, no more than I think ND deserves any ragging on this.

Hell, you have trouble finding catholics who can or can't agree on birth control.

He's the fucking president of the US. He's not even catholic. He's been invited to speak there just like presidents all through the ages have been invited to speak at different places, regardless of the politics or personal beliefs.

This is a non issue.

233 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:13:24pm
234 Ojoe  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:13:31pm

re: #224 FurryOldGuyJeans

Removing nuclear weapons from the planet is profoundly pessimistic because it assumes that humanity can never grow up and become really responsible.

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:13:40pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

Look, the Pope is against artificial birth control, many catholics are not, yet we don't protest the pope visits. There are different opinions all around, the guy is the president of the US, he's not even catholic, so what?

Apparently Randall Terry now is.

236 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:08pm

re: #228 tradewind

Audience booing them, or Obama?

The hecklers have been shouted down.

237 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:10pm

re: #225 Steffan

Isn't that lovely. The seem to have an obsession with beheadings.

238 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:12pm

re: #200 redc1c4

it would have been wrong because he's a Republican. (more or less)

Well, OK, but what about in the world of ideas and faith, rather than the world of partisan politics?

239 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:18pm

re: #162 avanti

Amazing the mountain you can find in the tiniest molehills. It is his house while he's living there. If you renting a home, would you invite friends over to the house you rent from the landlord, or say "come over to my house"or is that arrogance ?

To your knowledge, did any of the former 42 residents of the White House ever refer to it as "my house"?

And your analogy is specious. So there.

240 Ojoe  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:19pm

re: #233 Iron Fist

Yes, and about "choice" I note that the right person is never asked.

241 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:21pm

re: #230 IslandLibertarian

"0" speaks!
Protesters protest.
3 1/2 more years.
Get used to it.

We had nearly 8 years of it already, now is the mirror reflection.

Disgusting.

242 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:25pm

re: #145 Wendya

Oh yes, I do. I do.

243 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:31pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

You are pro choice..so am I, so is Obama..Yet I draw the line at abortion on demand for fun and profit and given at any time during the pregnancy, including during the birth itself. Obama doesn't view that line as part of his pay grade, yet he will make that view the law of the land.

Where do you stand here then..the ultra far left stance of Obama, or myself who believe the wishes of the family need to be considered?
A wide open field between the two views.

244 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:14:32pm

re: #162 avanti

Amazing the mountain you can find in the tiniest molehills. It is his house while he's living there. If you renting a home, would you invite friends over to the house you rent from the landlord, or say "come over to my house"or is that arrogance ?

It is the people's house. Not the occupant's house. He is not "renting" it.

Every American ought to know that, especially the president. To me, it is bizarre that he uses such language. If you can come up with a quote from another president describing it as his own, I promise, I'll feel the same way.

245 ladycatnip  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:15:02pm

#225 Steffan

Yesterday, John & Ken were feeding Ahnuld effigies into a shredder. They have a "Heads On A Stick" feature on their web page.

This whole "Heads on a stick" thing is reminiscent of how the French Revolution started. The rhetoric is getting way out of hand.

246 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:15:46pm

re: #216 NelsFree

The ND President introduced him as, "a man who wants to rid the world of nuclear weapons".
Does anyone reallyy think that is possible?

I would also like to rid the world of nuclear weapons. So would my college buddy's seven year old. None of the three of us are apt to get anywhere on that though...

247 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:15:55pm

Yeah. Where is Code Pink now? Have there been any changes in policy of which I'm unaware? No? Gee. So where are these particular kooks? Not graduating?

248 baldeagle  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:16:05pm

I really think I am going to be sick watching old bobblehead at my Alma Mater[I do not listen to him,,there is just something about his voice that causes a reaction in my stomach,,honestly, there is,,first time I ever heard him on the radio,,,,I must have a built in BS detector or something] However, ND has been going down the secular route for awhile. Great article over at American Thinker that pretty well sums it up.

249 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:16:06pm

re: #184 Walter L. Newton

ODS?
If you're co-opting the term BDS, there is no comparison. I don't believe anyone has called for BHO's hanging or sending his children into harm's way, or that theories re how he plans to take over the world are proliferating .
I've seen derangement syndrome, and that's no derangement syndrome.

250 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:16:10pm

re: #177 IslandLibertarian

The Catholic Church is anti-abortion.
Notre Dame is a Catholic University.
Obama is pro-abortion. (His first act was to pay for abortions outside the United States)
Gee, imagine that. Catholis protesting Obama speaking at Notre Dame.

(by the way, I support women rights to choose)
(I also support Catholics the right to protest)

The Catholic Church is anti-death penalty.

Notre Dame is a Catholic university.

Bush is strongly pro-death penalty. (He got off on mocking a woman about to be executed while he was Texas governor.)

Imagine this: Catholics protesting Bush speaking at Notre Dame.

I support everybody's right to protest.

I also applaud ND for living in the real world and not requiring a notable non-Catholic speaker to agree with all of Catholic doctrine before inviting him to speak. As I would applaud them were they to make the same decision re Bush.

251 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:16:10pm

re: #234 Ojoe

Removing nuclear weapons from the planet is profoundly pessimistic because it assumes that humanity can never grow up and become really responsible.

Watching the level of maturity being expressed at the ND Commencement I have my doubts we ever will.

252 Idle Drifter  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:16:15pm

Obama makes college commencement speech.
Protesters stand just outside rallying their cause.
I watch hockey without pause.


Heh, my poor attempt at haiku.//

253 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:16:23pm

re: #183 quiet man

So true..we have enough viewpoints that there is little excuse for voting on anything other than qualifications and beliefs. Even so, that part will always have a strong standing..votes based on looks, or some sort of gotcha

The gradual dumbing down of America is beginning to bear fruit for the left...

254 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:16:31pm

re: #216 NelsFree

The ND President introduced him as, "a man who wants to rid the world of nuclear weapons".
Does anyone reallyy think that is possible?


Jenkins seems impressed that Obama is talking nuke arms reductions with the Russians?! The Russians aren't the big problem here. They've had nukes for 60 years and haven't used them.

If academics like Jenkins were half as smart as they thought they were, they'd be far less annoying to me.

255 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:17:02pm

re: #239 Opilio

To your knowledge, did any of the former 42 residents of the White House ever refer to it as "my house"?

And your analogy is specious. So there.

OK, he's the first. It just sometimes seems some on the right are trying to outdo the silliness I saw on the left against Bush.

256 insanity police  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:17:02pm

Where is the teleprompter? Did it get an honorary degree?

257 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:17:40pm

'Islamic Idol' a hit on world's first Muslim pop music channel

Flames burst from the stage for a grand entrance, and fake fog swirls around a young man in a white robe. He clutches the microphone, gazes seriously into the camera and then, accompanied only by drums, he sings.

"I accept Allah as my God, His religion as my religion, and His Messenger as my Messenger," he intones, as the audience, divided into men's and women's sections, claps along with the rhythm.

The singer is a contestant on a new Islamic version of American Idol, launched to find and promote talent for the Arab world's first Islamic pop music video channel.

. . .

But it's hard to hit the right balance between conservative and liberal. The channel shows no female singers - or any other women - adhering to the mainstream view that women performers are taboo in Islam. Still, some conservatives are wary about mixing pop culture and religion.

/what fun!

258 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:17:54pm

re: #249 tradewind

ODS?
If you're co-opting the term BDS, there is no comparison. I don't believe anyone has called for BHO's hanging or sending his children into harm's way, or that theories re how he plans to take over the world are proliferating .
I've seen derangement syndrome, and that's no derangement syndrome.

Go back up thread and look at some of the pictures that Charles has linked to in regards to the recent California Tea Party get together.

You're not looking close enough.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:17:58pm

re: #221 Killgore Trout

Remember the good old days when Code Pink used to do this stuff.

They'll be back. Don't worry.

260 MandyManners  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:18:56pm

My nanny useta' say that if a person who sticks his nose so high into the air were a duck, he'd drown when it rained.

261 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:19:04pm
262 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:19:26pm

re: #255 avanti

OK, he's the first. It just sometimes seems some on the right are trying to outdo the silliness I saw on the left against Bush.

It's not silly. It telegraphs some sort of attitude of entitlement at worst, or lack of understanding at best.

Do you have the same lack of understanding, avanti? Do you not realize that is not his house, that it's ours?

263 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:19:33pm

re: #249 tradewind

ODS?
If you're co-opting the term BDS, there is no comparison. I don't believe anyone has called for BHO's hanging or sending his children into harm's way, or that theories re how he plans to take over the world are proliferating .
I've seen derangement syndrome, and that's no derangement syndrome.

You're kidding, right?

264 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:19:42pm

re: #229 Bloodnok

I'm sure the Malkins of the world will tout them as heroes for speaking truth to power -forgetting that she (and the right) spent the last 8 years criticizing this behavior from the Code Pink types.

Basic psychological truth. Your friends are always passionate, the opposition is hysterical and hypocritical. It just goes that way.

265 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:19:49pm

"crass materialism"
"greed"

I am sick to death of this Utopian class war bullshit. And it is only just the beginning.

266 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

Walter, repectfully, it isn't hard at all to find Catholics in agreement on the issue of abortion. Birth control, yes, but abortion, no.

267 Bloodnok  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:16pm

re: #261 Sourdough

Come in #261, your time's up.

268 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:27pm

re: #249 tradewind

ODS?
If you're co-opting the term BDS, there is no comparison. I don't believe anyone has called for BHO's hanging or sending his children into harm's way, or that theories re how he plans to take over the world are proliferating .
I've seen derangement syndrome, and that's no derangement syndrome.

ODS is out there... it's just not the mainstream like it was with Bush.

269 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:31pm

re: #261 Sourdough

Bye now! Sorry, your dramatic flounce-off comment has been deleted.

270 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:31pm

re: #221 Killgore Trout

re: #247 katemaclaren

Yeah. Where is Code Pink now? Have there been any changes in policy of which I'm unaware? No? Gee. So where are these particular kooks? Not graduating?

Yet, but they (Code Pink, Radical Cheerleaders, Whatever) still got their website agitprop. (not family or innocence friendly)

271 Logic  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:40pm

re: #248 baldeagle

[I do not listen to him,,there is just something about his voice that causes a reaction in my stomach,,honestly, there is,,first time I ever heard him on the radio,,,,I must have a built in BS detector or something]

I can't listen to him either. Thank goodness for remote controls - I can't turn the channel fast enough when I hear his voice.

272 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:40pm

re: #261 Sourdough


Dude ... you are so wrong about this site taking a hard left turn.

273 ClosetRepublicInSantaMonica  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:42pm

re: #181 katemaclaren

As I'm watching, I'm getting angrier. This is not about Notre Dame graduates, it is about BO. This is disgraceful. Remember when there were protests about Barbara Bush being speaker at Wellesley?

Exactly and precisely the point I was trying to make. I've participated in 12 Commencements in addition to my own three. I can tell you all kinds of facts about the ceremony, the robes, the hoods and the hats. I remember one graduate saying to me as I helped her with her Master's Hood that it reminded her of her wedding. A ceremony to celebrate the graduates, not the speaker. I've been to graduation with important people (including John Kerry when he was running for President) and while security was a factor it was always in the context of the ceremony. It was possible to arrange things without putting the spotlight on Obama.

274 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:20:54pm

re: #268 Wendya

ODS is out there... it's just not the mainstream like it was with Bush.

Fox is not mainstream?

275 insanity police  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:21:05pm

re: #261 Sourdough

That's pretty offensive on a number of levels.

276 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:21:12pm

re: #249 tradewind

Time to open your eyes and look around you. Charles has posted two pictures from a California Tea Party.

The level of irrational hatred against Obama simply because he is POTUS is at a level after only 4 months that took much longer with the Libs and Bush, and shows signs of only increasing.

277 Kronocide  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:21:22pm

re: #261 Sourdough

Way to go out... with no style.

278 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:21:37pm

re: #266 katemaclaren

Walter, repectfully, it isn't hard at all to find Catholics in agreement on the issue of abortion. Birth control, yes, but abortion, no.

Bullshit.

279 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:21:57pm

re: #247 katemaclaren

They will be coming out soon enough...Obama is learning Bush had some great plans working, and that makes the kooks angrier than hornets.

One of these days Obama might be able to touch W's boot...with a ladder.
Right now, it is clear he is blinded with his own bullshit.

280 big steve  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:22:07pm

re: #269 Charles

Bye now! Sorry, your dramatic flounce-off comment has been deleted.

wow and a whole 27 lifetime posts......this guy is a poster boy for the Flounce Off Checklist.

281 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:22:27pm

I can't believe I hear a baby in the audience! a protestor? Will they hustle the mom out with the little protestor?

282 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:22:40pm

re: #271 Logic

I can't listen to him either. Thank goodness for remote controls - I can't turn the channel fast enough when I hear his voice.

Beyond what he says, it's the cadence of his speaking that I can't stand.

283 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:22:54pm

re: #265 The Shadow Do

"crass materialism"
"greed"

I am sick to death of this Utopian class war bullshit. And it is only just the beginning.

So you're on the "greed is good" bus?

284 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:22:57pm

re: #267 Bloodnok

Come in #261, your time's up.

Alas, sourdough, we hardly knew ye.

285 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:14pm

Obama sure isn't sounding like a "radical pro-abortionist" right now.

286 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:14pm
287 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:19pm

I have no wish to hear that presidential pantload speak or hear about his adoring fans stroking his ego. Why people fawn over him and are unashamed about it is a mystery to me. Why people whose Church expressly forbids what he has allowed drool over him is equally mysterious.

288 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:23pm

re: #270 Timbre

Whoa! I took a look.

289 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:33pm

re: #167 Bloodnok

Again, same arguments the left used when they weren't in power.

I sincerely hope you aren't using code pink and international answer as the benchmark for rational disagreement.

290 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:35pm

re: #281 katemaclaren

I can't believe I hear a baby in the audience! a protestor? Will they hustle the mom out with the little protestor?


he/she is protesting a dirty diaper

291 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:46pm

re: #25 BLBfootballs

This isn't about respecting the presidency -- it's about Notre Dame hosting a commencement speaker who rejects one of the university's core values and is in a position to influence public policy about those values.

And all I can say about that is: good for Notre Dame. Learning cannot take place in a vacuum, nor can it take place in a cloister. Responding to precepts you disagree with by refusing to discuss it doesn't fit the role of an educational institution. It's more in keeping with a gulag or a madrassah.

The Catholic Church has a long history of promoting all manner of learning and research without consideration for where those studies might lead, or if they would conflict with Catholic doctrine. If your position can't stand up to dissenting views, it is a weak and unsupportable position. Notre Dame seeks to turn out educated graduates, not mindless drones repeating what someone else told them. At this point in their lives, the graduates certainly possess the skills required to evaluate what others say all by themselves, without any filtering.

Sorry to take what seems to be an unpopular position with some here, but censorship of any kind is odious in the extreme, and even more so when it is conducted by institutions which are committed to education. We often deride universities that seem to promote one position in favor of another when the position being promoted is a steaming pile of Leftard puke and the position ignored is sensible Conservative ideology, and this is often a valid complaint. But the point is that universities should not be favoring one view over another; they should provide an environment where all viewpoints are accessible, and where the skills are taught allowing individuals to evaluate those views on their own.

292 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:46pm

Has anyone actually heard his address to the student body? Has Obama told them to "go forth and spread abortion among your friends and families" yet?

No, I didn't think so.

293 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:23:55pm

re: #284 Opilio

Alas, sourdough, we hardly knew ye.

For which I am profoundly grateful.

294 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:24:22pm
295 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:24:34pm

Obama Breaks With Gates, Cancels Nuke Program

Obama's new budget plan includes a little-noted sea change in U.S. nuclear policy, and a step towards his vision of a denuclearized world. It provides no funding for the Reliable Replacement Warhead program, created to design a new generation of long-lasting nuclear weapons that don't need to be tested. (The military is worried that a nuclear test moratorium in effect since 1992 might endanger the reliability of an aging US arsenal.) But this spring Obama issued a bold call for a world free of nuclear weapons, and part of that vision entails leading by example. That means halting programs that expand the American nuclear stockpile. For the past two budget years the Democratic Congress has refused to fund the Bush-era program. But Obama's budget kills the National Nuclear Security Administration program once and for all.

Against military advice.

/so much for our superpower status

296 Bloodnok  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:24:39pm

re: #289 Wendya

I sincerely hope you aren't using code pink and international answer as the benchmark for rational disagreement.

I'm not sure where you're seeing that in anything I've posted.

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:24:45pm

re: #233 Iron Fist

So you support the decision to have the child, or is the only real choice that you support abortion? Many people who support "choice" only support one side of that choice. This was blindingly obvious in the rhetoric that surrounded Sarah Palin's decision not to abort Trig Palin.

I've not seen any of the opinion polling professionals even try to quantify this diversity (or lack thereof) of opinion. And I suspect that most people that actually feel this way aren't going to admit it. In my experience, they don't even really think about the question. They simply assume that there is only one choice for women to make if the child would be a "burden" (i.e. inconvenient) to the expectant mother.

I believe that abortion is a necessary evil, and I do mean evil. I support a woman's choice, whatever that choice is, and I rejoice in the birth of all babies, regardless of how they got here, or what challenges they may face when they arrive.

I'm with Bill Clinton on this one--'legal, safe and rare'. I admire groups like Birthright that go beyond political rhetoric to actually help pregnant women who need support.

And I'm pro-Trig. His outfits were a bright spot among the general nuttiness of the election. I also like Piper--they're my favorite Palins.

298 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:24:52pm

He's not a fool--he's a silver-tongued devil. I do notice that crowd shots don't show many people clapping--and it's CNN.

299 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:24:54pm

re: #234 Ojoe

Removing nuclear weapons from the planet is profoundly pessimistic STUPID because it assumes that humanity can never grow up and become really responsible.

There, fixed that for ya!

300 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:25:00pm

re: #247 katemaclaren

Yeah. Where is Code Pink now? Have there been any changes in policy of which I'm unaware? No? Gee. So where are these particular kooks? Not graduating?

Code Pink isn't particularly happy with President Obama or Speaker Pelosi but they aren't angry enough to start protesting them. After all, they aren't Bush.

301 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:25:27pm

re: #290 _RememberTonyC

Babies hate being bored just as much as a dirty diaper.

302 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:25:28pm

re: #294 Killgore Trout

Oops, did I quote a deleted post?

303 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:25:30pm

re: #262 capitalist piglet

It's not silly. It telegraphs some sort of attitude of entitlement at worst, or lack of understanding at best.

Do you have the same lack of understanding, avanti? Do you not realize that is not his house, that it's ours?

I realize that it is not his house, pretty sure he knows it too, and think it's a issue not worthy of comment.

304 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:25:34pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

I believe that abortion is a necessary evil, and I do mean evil. I support a woman's choice, whatever that choice is, and I rejoice in the birth of all babies, regardless of how they got here, or what challenges they may face when they arrive.

I'm with Bill Clinton on this one--'legal, safe and rare'. I admire groups like Birthright that go beyond political rhetoric to actually help pregnant women who need support.

And I'm pro-Trig. His outfits were a bright spot among the general nuttiness of the election. I also like Piper--they're my favorite Palins.

Clarifying that--I mean that the availability of abortion is a necessary evil.

305 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:25:52pm

re: #285 Charles

Obama sure isn't sounding like a "radical pro-abortionist" right now.


Obama is a master politician. He knows his audience and tailors his message accordingly. Didn't we observe his skills in this area in 2008?

306 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:26:12pm

re: #257 Killian Bundy

And the winner gets his head chopped off...Music is, after all, unIslamic.

307 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:26:44pm

re: #258 Walter L. Newton

I looked more closely, and wasn't much enlightened. Is the hanging effigy supposed to be Obama? Doesn't look much like him, unlike the startlingly accurate depictions of Dubya we saw ad infinitum, ad nauseum. And whose head was impaled on the silly sword? That definitely bears no resemblance to POTUS.
A tea party with idiots making puppets does not =derangement syndrome ....not if you are trying to equate it with the illness that grew out of hatred for GWB.

308 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:11pm

re: #298 katemaclaren

He's not a fool--he's a silver-tongued devil. I do notice that crowd shots don't show many people clapping--and it's CNN.

Obviously, you don't like Obama -- but that audience is very much on his side. They gave him an extended standing ovation when he entered, and they overwhelmingly booed the people who were shouting like fools.

309 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:34pm

re: #274 Cato the Elder

Fox is not mainstream?

Not as mainstream as ABC/NBC/CBS/CNN/MSNBC.

310 Kronocide  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:39pm

Ode to sourdough:

Alas, we hardly knew you
to put you in an oven and toast right through you
pair you up, with butter, crab and chardonnay
to be with sourdough, it would be a great day
that is, till you became an asshole
now, it's just the crab and chardonnay

311 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:40pm

re: #301 katemaclaren

Babies hate being bored just as much as a dirty diaper.


LOL ...

312 NY Nana  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:41pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Oops, did I quote a deleted post?

Deleted and the ex-poster, sourdough is now toast. ;)

313 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:53pm

re: #232 Walter L. Newton

I was playing devils advocate earlier, if you didn't catch it. I thought the woman mentioned earlier was wrong, but I don't think she deserved any ragging from co-religionist, no more than I think ND deserves any ragging on this.

Hell, you have trouble finding catholics who can or can't agree on birth control.

He's the fucking president of the US. He's not even catholic. He's been invited to speak there just like presidents all through the ages have been invited to speak at different places, regardless of the politics or personal beliefs.

This is a non issue.

Of course I didn't catch it, Walter, I'm not nearly as smart or nuanced as you are.

My ire over this has nothing to do with lack of respect for the office of the President. He was invited; he should not have been disinvited, nor should he be shouted down by the crowd. He's there, he should be able to speak.

My ire is with the ND decision in the first place. It shows, to me, the same sort of lack of faithfulness to Catholic ideals that have resulted in Catholic legislators being able to go about supporting abortion with no response from the Church at all, and that have resulted in the Church's failings to properly deal with things such as priests assaults on our youth.

314 JPL17  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:54pm

re: #153 Cato the Elder

You mean taxpayers aren't being raped by government thugs?

315 Logic  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:27:58pm

re: #282 debutaunt

Beyond what he says, it's the cadence of his speaking that I can't stand.

Exactly, it's as if he's spent a great deal of time practicing this cadence and its pregnant (pardon the pun) pauses in an attempt to instill "importance" in his every word. I get the distinct, yet creepy impression that no one enjoys the sound of his voice more than he does.

316 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:28:16pm

re: #307 tradewind

And whose head was impaled on the silly sword?

It's Arnold Schwarzenegger.

317 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:28:28pm

re: #268 Wendya

That's more like it. The seeds of ODS may be sown, but they are definitely not being factory farmed by the MSM and other institutions in the way that BDS was nurtured.

318 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:28:32pm

re: #285 Charles

Yes, and are you really surprised? Obama is the master of say what they want to hear, where they want to hear it. Again, his nomination of Sibelius should be held firmly in mind as he weaves the mask needed to make him look the best he can at this presidential photo op.

319 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:28:36pm

Olympia Tea Party
The organizer is Glenn Beck's Evergreen Freedom Foundation.
Why do you guys even try to defend this nonsense?

320 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:28:39pm

re: #307 tradewind

I looked more closely, and wasn't much enlightened. Is the hanging effigy supposed to be Obama? Doesn't look much like him, unlike the startlingly accurate depictions of Dubya we saw ad infinitum, ad nauseum. And whose head was impaled on the silly sword? That definitely bears no resemblance to POTUS.
A tea party with idiots making puppets does not =derangement syndrome ....not if you are trying to equate it with the illness that grew out of hatred for GWB.

I am, and you're ignoring the emotions. Looking for a tit to tat mirror of something you saw the left doing to Bush is not the issue, it's the mindset, the craziness, the tactics.

Open your eyes.

321 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:28:40pm

re: #269 Charles

Bye now! Sorry, your dramatic flounce-off comment has been deleted.

Was there more to that post than what KT quoted?

322 CapeCoddah  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:28:48pm

Good Afternoon everyone! Finally have a few hours off! I have missed you all!

323 Silvergirl  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:29:07pm

re: #162 avanti

Amazing the mountain you can find in the tiniest molehills. It is his house while he's living there. If you renting a home, would you invite friends over to the house you rent from the landlord, or say "come over to my house"or is that arrogance ?

I don't know, avanti. Asking me to compare myself to Obama in the way you did will naturally cause me to say that it would be silly to invite my friends over to the landlord's house. I am a common citizen while President Obama presides over the United States. As a common citizen, bands will not play Hail to the Chief at my appearances, but as a mere citizen, it is fitting and proper to invite guests to my humble abode and call it my house. Part of the price paid to have Hail to the Chief played for you is to call the house you live in The White House. This is done out of respect for the country and for all the former occupants of The White House.

324 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:29:30pm

re: #243 quiet man

You are pro choice..so am I, so is Obama..Yet I draw the line at abortion on demand for fun and profit and given at any time during the pregnancy, including during the birth itself. Obama doesn't view that line as part of his pay grade, yet he will make that view the law of the land.

Where do you stand here then..the ultra far left stance of Obama, or myself who believe the wishes of the family need to be considered?
A wide open field between the two views.

I responded with my basic position to Iron Fist, but to add:

I don't think Roe's timeline is a bad one. I have no knowledge of anyone who's ever had even a second-trimester abortion for anything but extreme medical reasons.

What does 'the wishes of the family' mean in your case? The father? I can't answer that unless I have a clearer idea of what you want considered.

325 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:29:33pm

re: #213 lost of earth

Hecklers being removed.

Good riddance, whoever they were. If you can't allow someone to speak their views in such a setting, you don't belong in this country, which explicitly protects the right of anyone to express any viewpoint without censorship.

326 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:29:43pm

re: #286 Iron Fist

It is kind of like with the gun control debate. The actual results of removing the weapons would not be peace breaking out everywhere. The actual effect of removing nuclear weapons would be to make large-scale warfare a viable option once again. Right now, for the most part, clashes between major powers are constrained by the knowledge that it can escalate into a nuclear exchange.

I certainly agree that the major powers are constrained (thinking the U.S., Russia, China, and India). Interestingly, the move by, particularly China and India to more capitalism as they see the fruits it bears, strengthens that constraint, IMO.

On the other hand, however, I do worry about regimes that are (either clinically or politically) insane, such as Iran and North Korea. And regimes that are becoming unstable, such as Pakistan.

327 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:04pm

re: #283 Cato the Elder

So you're on the "greed is good" bus?

It is called Capitalism my friend. It works.

328 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:13pm

re: #292 Walter L. Newton

Actions.. in his case votes... speak louder than words.

329 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:26pm

re: #321 Macker

Yeah, but I didn't read that far. There was another paragraph or two.

330 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #317 tradewind

That's more like it. The seeds of ODS may be sown, but they are definitely not being factory farmed by the MSM and other institutions in the way that BDS was nurtured.

You don't watch much FOX, or else, you are willfully blind to what is happening.

It doesn't matter. It's here, it's real, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Time to bury our heads in the holes again.

331 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:31pm

re: #321 Macker

Yes.

332 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:41pm
333 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:51pm

re: #247 katemaclaren

Yeah. Where is Code Pink now? Have there been any changes in policy of which I'm unaware? No? Gee. So where are these particular kooks? Not graduating?

When last seen they were objecting to banks getting bailout money, I think.

334 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:30:56pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist

I still respect the office, but I sure as hell don't respect the man.

335 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:31:07pm

re: #319 Killgore Trout

Olympia Tea Party
The organizer is Glenn Beck's Evergreen Freedom Foundation.
Why do you guys even try to defend this nonsense?

The Evergreen Freedom Foundation is heavily promoted on talk radio here in Seattle, and this is the first time I have ever heard it referred to as "Glenn Beck's Evergreen Freedom Foundation".

336 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:31:24pm

re: #316 Charles

It's Arnold Schwarzenegger.

He sure has seen a sea change in support since he was the "Last Great Hope for Republicans" when he ran for governor in the Gray Davis run-off election.

Makes me wonder what all the people who were so wanting to see a change to the Constitution so Ahnold could run for POTUS think of him now.

337 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:31:39pm

re: #300 Wendya

Code Pink isn't particularly happy with President Obama or Speaker Pelosi but they aren't angry enough to start protesting them. After all, they aren't Bush.

Bush...Code Pink...must duct-tape typing fingers...

338 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:31:40pm

re: #313 reine.de.tout

Of course I didn't catch it, Walter, I'm not nearly as smart or nuanced as you are.

My ire over this has nothing to do with lack of respect for the office of the President. He was invited; he should not have been disinvited, nor should he be shouted down by the crowd. He's there, he should be able to speak.

My ire is with the ND decision in the first place. It shows, to me, the same sort of lack of faithfulness to Catholic ideals that have resulted in Catholic legislators being able to go about supporting abortion with no response from the Church at all, and that have resulted in the Church's failings to properly deal with things such as priests assaults on our youth.

Catholic ideals has (at least since Vatican II) been to foster open dialog on many if not all subjects. That's progress. I like progress.

339 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:32:00pm

re: #331 Charles

My response should probably get deleted. It now looks like he got bounced for defending the Tea Parties because I didn't quote his whole comment.

340 sattv4u2  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:32:12pm

re: #283 Cato the Elder

re: #327 The Shadow Do

It is called Capitalism my friend. It works.

double ditto. I want the people I work for to be as "greedy" as possible. The alternative, being satisfied and complacent SUCKS . Leads to ZERO growth and ZERO advancement opps

341 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:32:56pm

re: #339 Killgore Trout

My response should probably get deleted. It now looks like he got bounced for defending the Tea Parties because I didn't quote his whole comment.

I thought he got bounced for bitching about this site.

342 CapeCoddah  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:33:02pm

Crap, Had a few minutes, now a client has the nerve to call and I have to go for a bit!...See you all tonite, hope everyone is well!

343 big steve  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:33:11pm

re: #318 quiet man

Yes, and are you really surprised? Obama is the master of say what they want to hear, where they want to hear it. Again, his nomination of Sibelius should be held firmly in mind as he weaves the mask needed to make him look the best he can at this presidential photo op.

Come on lets be honest here......public speeches by Presidents are all PR. Back a century ago, a speech by a President meant something because that was the only way they could communicate policy. In fact, Mary Todd Lincoln once sold one of Abe's speeches to the newspapers before he gave the speech....reputedly to generate cash to pay off her shopping debts. So ANY time the President is giving a prepared speech these days I just assume that it is....highly vetted.....designed to make him look good......and tailored to the audience. If we are honest, Bush did the exact same thing, in fact he was well known to be one of the best at staying on message.

344 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:33:17pm

re: #327 The Shadow Do

It is called Capitalism my friend. It works.

Until it doesn't. AIG ring a bell?

345 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:33:39pm

re: #308 Charles

I don't dislike Obama. I weighed voting for him once if my choice had to be between one of the Republicans running. However, I have been to four graduation ceremonies this month alone, and it is quite common to give standing ovations--in fact--the norm--to speakers who are celebrities, or not. I have been to graduation ceremonies for the past 12 years at various colleges and seen a few protests at past events, and students and others shout the disrupters down. PETA, ProChoice, AntiWar--protests at these events are not popular because everyone wants to get on with things. They are long and usually quite boring.

346 brookly red  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:33:44pm

re: #336 FurryOldGuyJeans

He sure has seen a sea change in support since he was the "Last Great Hope for Republicans" when he ran for governor in the Gray Davis run-off election.

Makes me wonder what all the people who were so wanting to see a change to the Constitution so Ahnold could run for POTUS think of him now.

one of several Terminator quotes would fit I think...

347 insanity police  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:34:08pm

re: #341 capitalist piglet

I thought he got bounced for bitching about this site.

He said a number of really nasty things. Not just bashing the site.

348 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:34:11pm

re: #344 Cato the Elder

Until it doesn't. AIG ring a bell?

So you don't like capitalism? What do you prefer?

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:34:16pm

re: #292 Walter L. Newton

Has anyone actually heard his address to the student body? Has Obama told them to "go forth and spread abortion among your friends and families" yet?

No, I didn't think so.

The graduates of 2009 are America's future. They go forth into a brighter world, but a world in which various bad stuff still lurks.

I'm not listening either, I've just heard a lot of graduation speeches.

350 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:34:21pm

I know I'm supposed to hate everything about Barack Obama or I'm a very bad conservative, but I just can't find much fault with anything he's saying in this speech. It's actually a very good speech so far.

351 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:34:23pm

re: #335 capitalist piglet

Go to their website. Their main goal seems to to the promotion of Glenn Beck.

352 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:34:42pm

re: #340 sattv4u2

re: #327 The Shadow Do

double ditto. I want the people I work for to be as "greedy" as possible. The alternative, being satisfied and complacent SUCKS . Leads to ZERO growth and ZERO advancement opps

Not only does Capitalism work, it elevates every society it is fostered in. This is a good thing.

353 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:34:56pm

..and I can't believe I'm subjecting myself to this one, either. I will say this, I have never seen any speaker--including Pres. George H. W. Bush, when he spoke at a local high school graduation, use a teleprompter at one of these speeches.

354 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:35:04pm

re: #351 Killgore Trout

Go to their website. Their main goal seems to to the promotion of Glenn Beck.

But is it "Glenn Beck's", as you called it?

355 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:35:07pm

re: #346 brookly red

one of several Terminator quotes would fit I think...

How's about this one?

356 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:35:24pm

re: #292 Walter L. Newton

Has anyone actually heard his address to the student body? Has Obama told them to "go forth and spread abortion among your friends and families" yet?

No, I didn't think so.

I'm sure Michelle Malkin is going over every word - and even several pairs of words - looking for some syllable that can be warped into a snappy phrase like "crap sandwich" or "porkulus" after a few hours in the spin cycle.

357 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:35:31pm

re: #335 capitalist piglet

The Evergreen Freedom Foundation is heavily promoted on talk radio here in Seattle, and this is the first time I have ever heard it referred to as "Glenn Beck's Evergreen Freedom Foundation".

They are promoting Beck quite prominently on their home page, but I do consider support a far cry from being the man's mouthpiece organization.

358 NY Nana  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:35:32pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

In Judaism, this is the position on abortion.

359 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:35:34pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist

Since amniocentesis isn't even performed until the second trimester, there are countless second trimester abortions performed every year. CVS sampling makes that same testing available in the first trimester, but there are many people who wait for amnios for various reasons. There are actually second trimester abortions performed for sex selection reasons.... not routinely, as in China, but it has been done and will undoubtedly continue.

360 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:35:49pm

I'm sure BHO spent a lot of time writing this speech.

361 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:36:02pm

re: #344 Cato the Elder

Until it doesn't. AIG ring a bell?

good grief.

362 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:36:04pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist


Google it. It is obvious you are to the right of Obama, as is most thinking people. In my nape of the woods, it is still a huge sticking point.

363 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:36:32pm

re: #356 SixDegrees

Well, hey, that's her job, isn't it?
/

364 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:36:33pm

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

Catholic ideals has (at least since Vatican II) been to foster open dialog on many if not all subjects. That's progress. I like progress.

Well, we'll have to disagree, then, because there are some things (priestly pedophilia, abortion) which in my mind are simply not open to "dialog".

365 big steve  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:36:34pm

re: #350 Charles

I know I'm supposed to hate everything about Barack Obama or I'm a very bad conservative, but I just can't find much fault with anything he's saying in this speech. It's actually a very good speech so far.

ohhh weeeee ........the bats are going to start flying now!

366 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:37:02pm

re: #348 capitalist piglet

So you don't like capitalism? What do you prefer?

Roast piglet.

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:37:11pm

re: #334 Macker

I still respect the office, but I sure as hell don't respect the man.

I think a lot of people have been there before, and are there now.

Deep breaths are best.

368 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:37:14pm

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

Catholic ideals has (at least since Vatican II) been to foster open dialog on many if not all subjects. That's progress. I like progress.

It goes back even further than that. Have your read "Galileo's Daughter" by Dava Sobel? It casts the traditional Church versus Science story in a completely new light, supported by historical documents.

369 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:37:25pm

re: #353 katemaclaren

I have never seen any speaker--including Pres. George H. W. Bush, when he spoke at a local high school graduation, use a teleprompter at one of these speeches.


Oh please. Every single politician in America would use a teleprompter for a high profile speech like this. It's absolutely routine.

370 Logic  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:37:33pm

Uh oh, "collective labor".

;-)

371 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:37:41pm

re: #350 Charles

I think that the protest is because of the granting of his honorary degree as much if not more than due to his being asked to speak.
Of course he's giving a good speech. He's an excellent speech-giver.

372 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:37:54pm

re: #323 Silvergirl

I don't know, avanti. Asking me to compare myself to Obama in the way you did will naturally cause me to say that it would be silly to invite my friends over to the landlord's house.

I think if you hear BHO talk about AF 1, his helicopters and the like, he tends to use that sort of line. I recall, "I've never had a helicopter before, so I don't know if I need a new one" for example. I don't take it as a serious issue, others may disagree.

373 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:38:06pm

re: #344 Cato the Elder

Until it doesn't. AIG ring a bell?

And Collectivism was such a success? Unrestrained greed is the problem, not enlightened self-interest.

374 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:38:09pm

The whole audience is giving him a standing ovation at the finish.

375 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:38:16pm

So, I wonder who the author of the speech actually is? --you know, one of the men behind the curtain? It sounded like a woman's words, actually.

376 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:38:22pm

re: #371 tradewind

I think that the protest is because of the granting of his honorary degree as much if not more than due to his being asked to speak.
Of course he's giving a good speech. He's an excellent speech-giver.

And that's all he's good at.

377 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:38:42pm

re: #374 Charles

Naturally. It always happens. Relief.

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:38:51pm

re: #348 capitalist piglet

So you don't like capitalism? What do you prefer?

I like capitalism. I also like shopping. Taken to extremes, when you don't think about consequences, anything will bite you in the butt.

Profit is good. Greed, by definition, blinds you to reality.

379 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:38:53pm

re: #308 Charles

Obviously, you don't like Obama -- but that audience is very much on his side. They gave him an extended standing ovation when he entered, and they overwhelmingly booed the people who were shouting like fools.

Of course they gave Obama a standing ovation. That's all anybody ever does. He flip-flops and people stand by him. He pushes for protectionism and people love him. He bails out bankrupt companies and this somehow makes sense. Now he receives an honourary degree just for being there from a university whose mandates- one would assume- should be pro-life. Is anyone going to see this guy as an anti-life fraud? I'm going to get yelled at but this man repulses me. The people who cater to his narcissism, ditto.

380 big steve  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:39:03pm

re: #353 katemaclaren

..and I can't believe I'm subjecting myself to this one, either. I will say this, I have never seen any speaker--including Pres. George H. W. Bush, when he spoke at a local high school graduation, use a teleprompter at one of these speeches.

They are always there for prepared speeches.....they are just very cleverly unobtrusive. No politician has the TIME to memorize a speech these days, especially one they didn't write.

381 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:39:15pm

re: #350 Charles

I know I'm supposed to hate everything about Barack Obama or I'm a very bad conservative, but I just can't find much fault with anything he's saying in this speech. It's actually a very good speech so far.

Nope, not in my book. I'm with you - if the only way to be a conservative is to completely trash anything and everything the president says, well, all credibility is soon gone. When President Obama says something, or makes a decision, that is good for America, I have absolutely no problem agreeing with/supporting his decision.

382 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:39:15pm
383 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:39:18pm

re: #343 big steve


Maybe to some extent you are correct..but I think we all had a far better idea of what Bush was going to do before he was elected. Obama hasn't really done much of what he campaigned on and has either back tracked or quietly changed course, and usually right after he comes out saying the exact opposite.

Bush told people how it was..so did (and will) Sarah Palin.

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:39:39pm

re: #350 Charles

I know I'm supposed to hate everything about Barack Obama or I'm a very bad conservative, but I just can't find much fault with anything he's saying in this speech. It's actually a very good speech so far.

Charles, why don't you hate Barack Obama?

//

385 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:39:40pm

re: #374 Charles

It's a symbolic protest against abortion. The hand clapping symbolizes the spanking of socialism.

386 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:18pm

re: #363 katemaclaren

Well, hey, that's her job, isn't it?
/

Sadly, that seems to be the case these days.

387 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:21pm

re: #366 Cato the Elder

Roast piglet.

What's wrong, Cato? You don't want to say what system you prefer to capitalism?

388 MadHamster  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:21pm

By the look on their faces, these guys in charge of ND are all ready to give Obama a lap dance.

389 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:28pm

re: #351 Killgore Trout

Go to their website. Their main goal seems to to the promotion of Glenn Beck.

So they support the man. Does that make them a shadow mouthpiece organization with Beck pulling the strings?

390 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:29pm

re: #336 FurryOldGuyJeans

He sure has seen a sea change in support since he was the "Last Great Hope for Republicans" when he ran for governor in the Gray Davis run-off election.

Makes me wonder what all the people who were so wanting to see a change to the Constitution so Ahnold could run for POTUS think of him now.

California is the poster state for the inability to undo socialistic programs and endless spending.

391 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:37pm

re: #372 avanti

Hey Avanti, Did you hear the Ariz speech? I'm very curious to know whether it was the same speech with some cut and paste name changes. I remember how shocked and annoyed I was when I heard Hillary and Sarah, and McCain and Obama, actually repeat speeches almost verbatim.

392 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:38pm

re: #376 Macker

I would add ' campaign wizard' to that.
He's a first-rate campaigner.
My fear, and objection to him, is that he does not know where the campaign ends and the governing begins.

393 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:40:53pm

re: #388 MadHamster

By the look on their faces, these guys in charge of ND are all ready to give Obama a lap dance.

Facing away from him, of course.

394 big steve  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:41:11pm

re: #375 katemaclaren

So, I wonder who the author of the speech actually is? --you know, one of the men behind the curtain? It sounded like a woman's words, actually.

Get a copy of the text of the speech and run it through gender genie......I did this with some of Bushes speeches and they would turn up female in authorship.

395 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:41:13pm

re: #354 capitalist piglet

Technically the group is run by somebody named Bob Williams. They seem pretty shady: Evergreen Freedom Foundation

396 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:41:31pm

re: #368 SixDegrees

It goes back even further than that. Have your read "Galileo's Daughter" by Dava Sobel? It casts the traditional Church versus Science story in a completely new light, supported by historical documents.

Yes, I know of that work, and I know that the catholic church has been more open to dialog then their official policies would seem to dictate.

I was using V-II as a fical point for this discussion. It seems less arcane then mentioning a few hundred years of church history.

397 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:41:44pm

re: #379 Joan Not of Arc

Now he receives an honourary degree just for being there from a university whose mandates- one would assume- should be pro-life. Is anyone going to see this guy as an anti-life fraud? I'm going to get yelled at but this man repulses me. The people who cater to his narcissism, ditto.

This is what he said about abortion:

That's when we begin to say, "Maybe we won't agree on abortion, but we can still agree that this is a heart-wrenching decision for any woman to make, with both moral and spiritual dimensions. So let's work together to reduce the number of women seeking abortions by reducing unintended pregnancies, and making adoption more available, and providing care and support for women who do carry their child to term. Let's honor the conscience of those who disagree with abortion, and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women."

Understand - I do not suggest that the debate surrounding abortion can or should go away. No matter how much we may want to fudge it - indeed, while we know that the views of most Americans on the subject are complex and even contradictory - the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable. Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature.

Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.

Sorry, but to me, that definitely does not sound like a person who is "anti-life."

398 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:42:28pm

re: #369 Charles

Sorry, but that's not my experience covering these things in the past for graduation services. And I've had very good seats down front.

399 Kronocide  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:42:47pm

re: #350 Charles

I know I'm supposed to hate everything about Barack Obama or I'm a very bad conservative...

You're not a Real Conservative unless....

The Scotsman's Assertion, eh?

400 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:42:50pm

I'm headed to the theatre for work, no more carping from me this afternoon. Enjoy the break.

401 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:43:01pm

re: #360 katemaclaren

I'm sure BHO spent a lot of time writing this speech.

Yeah. Right.

402 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:43:03pm

re: #393 Macker

Facing away from him, of course.

You are a BAD dog! ;-)

403 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:43:09pm

re: #344 Cato the Elder

Until it doesn't. AIG ring a bell?

Bankruptcy. Anything illegal should be prosecuted.

404 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:43:21pm

re: #400 Walter L. Newton

I'm headed to the theatre for work, no more carping from me this afternoon. Enjoy the break.

Hi Walter! Have a terrific show!

405 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:43:23pm

re: #397 Charles

Again... it is not how he sounds.
It is how he votes.
He has voted consistently anti-life. Even those congressional members who support a woman's right to choose have often drawn the line at late term abortion rights, but not BHO. He has green-lit them.

406 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:43:38pm

re: #365 big steve

ohhh weeeee ........the bats are going to start flying now!

I'm not at all surprised that the speech was good.
Obama almost always gives really good speeches.

407 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:43:48pm

re: #400 Walter L. Newton

Do you work in theatre? How interesting! When you have time, tell us more! Please! (I'm serious, Walter)

408 insanity police  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:44:06pm

Steele on Fox News being asked about abortion.

409 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:44:21pm
410 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:44:28pm

re: #387 capitalist piglet

What's wrong, Cato? You don't want to say what system you prefer to capitalism?

Soziale Marktwirtschaft wie es in Deutschland praktiziert wird. (Social market economy as practiced in Germany.)

Le capitalisme sauvage as practiced here is finished.

411 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:44:32pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Technically the group is run by somebody named Bob Williams. They seem pretty shady: Evergreen Freedom Foundation

On that I won't disagree; I just find you conflating support for Beck to being the man's mouthpiece a bit hard to swallow.

412 Ojoe  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:44:38pm

re: #379 Joan Not of Arc

I'm going to get yelled at but this man repulses me. The people who cater to his narcissism, ditto.

Agree 100 %

413 _RememberTonyC  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:44:49pm

People need to understand that Obama will be a rock star on any college campus with the possible exception of Bob Jones University. Young people will embrace his appeal to their idealism. And that is not going to change until these young adults start seeing a "down side" to his policies. Like when they get jobs and see their pay stubs.

Oppose his policies if you disagree with them. But trying to tear off chunks of his flesh is a losing game. All the polls show he is more personally popular than his policies. So if you're going to oppose the man, back it up with reasoned arguments. "Hating" for hatred's sake is a losing game. That's what I despise about the political left. I will not stoop to that level.

414 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:44:56pm

re: #397 Charles

With all due respect, Charles, he couldn't even answer Rick Warren's question as to when a fetus gets human rights:

“. . . whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity . . . is above my pay grade.”

415 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:08pm

re: #350 Charles

I know I'm supposed to hate everything about Barack Obama or I'm a very bad conservative, but I just can't find much fault with anything he's saying in this speech. It's actually a very good speech so far.

I liked the part where someone called him on a line on the web site about right wing extremists, and that he has it deleted. The fishing story was a classic example of disagreeing without being disagreeable. It was not a Gettysburg speech, but not a stem winder either.

416 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:10pm

re: #409 buzzsawmonkey

I agree with the honor of having a president... any president... as commencement speaker.
It's giving him the honorary degree that is the sticking point.

417 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:20pm

re: #353 katemaclaren

..and I can't believe I'm subjecting myself to this one, either. I will say this, I have never seen any speaker--including Pres. George H. W. Bush, when he spoke at a local high school graduation, use a teleprompter at one of these speeches.

Maybe 0 is farsighted.

418 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:28pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Technically the group is run by somebody named Bob Williams. They seem pretty shady: Evergreen Freedom Foundation

KT, I know you're on a crusade against people going to Tea Parties, but please, the "Glenn Beck's" thing was a lie and I would like to believe that while we disagree, you'll at least be honest and communicate your opposition in good faith.

I'll check your link. There are some very good, very reputable talk show hosts here in Seattle that promote this organization, so I can't promise I'll find them "shady".

419 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:28pm

Charles...Would you change your mind if Obama went on Becks program to discuss what he learned about evolution in Rev Wrights church?
**grinning**

420 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:37pm

re: #374 Charles

The whole audience is giving him a standing ovation at the finish.

I have to remember too that most Catholics, anyway the ones that I know, voted for the zero.

421 Silvergirl  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:42pm

re: #394 big steve

Get a copy of the text of the speech and run it through gender genie......I did this with some of Bushes speeches and they would turn up female in authorship.

I took you up on it, partially. I ran the clip Charles provided in #397 with these results:

Female Score: 370
Male Score: 328

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female

422 IslandLibertarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:45:57pm

re: #278 Walter L. Newton

Bullshit.

Wrong Walter.

423 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:46:15pm

Michael Steele has obviously been read the riot act by the social conservatives in the GOP. He used to be moderate on the abortion subject, and now he sounds just like Randall Terry.

424 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:46:29pm

re: #411 FurryOldGuyJeans

Paulian groups are the same way. There are dozens if not hundreds of the across the country. Ron Paul has direct control over maybe 2 or 3 of them. The rest are independent grass roots operations.

425 callahan23  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:46:32pm

re: #409 buzzsawmonkey

Agree 100 %.
Thanks.

426 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:46:32pm

Michael Steele just hit the nail on the head. It's not what he says. It's what he has done through his voting record.

427 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:46:35pm

re: #416 tradewind

I agree with the honor of having a president... any president... as commencement speaker.
It's giving him the honorary degree that is the sticking point.

That is as obligatory as being asked to give speeches.

This is a non-issue.

428 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:47:03pm

re: #150 SanFranciscoZionist

You might want to point her to websites like strategypage.com.

From what I've read, there is a fair amount of sub rosa cooperation between Israel and some of its neighbors, particularly Egypt and Jordan. This is mostly because the mullahs in Iran have adopted Hezbollah and Hamas. Needless to say, the Sunni Arabs are pissed off about this. Of course, they're also pissed off that Hamas and Hezbollah have proven to be remarkably incompetent, but that's another story.

There is also the fact that the unofficial motto of the IDF may well be, "Though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the meanest SOB in the Valley." Militarily, Israel is the 800-lb. gorilla. There is no Arab army that can take on the IDF and win.

On the subject of nuclear weapons, a few minutes' sober thought would convince Israel's neighbors that they don't want to go there. If a nuclear device goes off in Israel, the prevailing wind (weather comes from the west) would dump most of the fallout in Jordan, Iraq, and Iran. This doesn't count the instant retaliation from Israel. It's a lose-lose situation for them.

All in all, if Israel didn't exist, the dictators/tyrants/monarchs in the neighborhood would have to find someone else to blame for their own shortcomings.

429 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:47:26pm

re: #419 quiet man

Charles...Would you change your mind if Obama went on Becks program to discuss what he learned about evolution in Rev Wrights church?
**grinning**

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

430 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:47:38pm
431 KingKenrod  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:47:43pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

Technically the group is run by somebody named Bob Williams. They seem pretty shady: Evergreen Freedom Foundation


I read that article and don't see anything shady about them, except that the author doesn't like them for being pro-school voucher and right to work. That article is also 7 years old. And it's not being run by Glenn Beck either.

432 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:47:46pm

re: #423 Charles

Michael Steele is a Catholic. I can't imagine that he would espouse a position antithetical to his church for the record.

433 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:48:02pm

re: #428 Steffan

You might want to point her to websites like strategypage.com.

From what I've read, there is a fair amount of sub rosa cooperation between Israel and some of its neighbors, particularly Egypt and Jordan. This is mostly because the mullahs in Iran have adopted Hezbollah and Hamas. Needless to say, the Sunni Arabs are pissed off about this. Of course, they're also pissed off that Hamas and Hezbollah have proven to be remarkably incompetent, but that's another story.

There is also the fact that the unofficial motto of the IDF may well be, "Though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the meanest SOB in the Valley." Militarily, Israel is the 800-lb. gorilla. There is no Arab army that can take on the IDF and win.

On the subject of nuclear weapons, a few minutes' sober thought would convince Israel's neighbors that they don't want to go there. If a nuclear device goes off in Israel, the prevailing wind (weather comes from the west) would dump most of the fallout in Jordan, Iraq, and Iran. This doesn't count the instant retaliation from Israel. It's a lose-lose situation for them.

All in all, if Israel didn't exist, the dictators/tyrants/monarchs in the neighborhood would have to find someone else to blame for their own shortcomings.

Thank you for responding to my rant! I think I honestly just have to stop trying to engage her. Communication isn't taking place.

434 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:48:15pm
435 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:48:36pm

re: #391 katemaclaren

Hey Avanti, Did you hear the Ariz speech? I'm very curious to know whether it was the same speech with some cut and paste name changes. I remember how shocked and annoyed I was when I heard Hillary and Sarah, and McCain and Obama, actually repeat speeches almost verbatim.

A lot of the same speech goals, but not a cut and paste job.

436 insanity police  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:48:53pm

re: #423 Charles

I think you're definitely right about that.

437 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:00pm

Lets see, as POTUS, you degrade the U.S. nuclear arsenal, slash missile defense spending, nationalize several large U.S. public corporations and start interfering in the governance of others, and massively increase social welfare programs.

WWPD?

/what would Putin do?

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:01pm

re: #434 buzzsawmonkey

Surely the matter of his getting an honorary degree--the usual currency for giving a commencement speech--is a matter between the university's administration, its trustees, and its alumni, and for them alone to determine.

Arizona State University: We Don't Give A Degree To Just Anyone

439 baldeagle  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:04pm

This guy is the biggest phony to come down the pike. A chicago thug in a nice suit and flowery words. Nobody wants to bring up his actual actions, decisions, choices, unscripted words, unguarded moments, etc. As well as an ND alum, I am also a retired military/USAF officer/pilot and he is no friend of the military. His last 2 flip flops on military decisions shows me that he is merely attempting to curry favor with military types because I honestly think that at some point, he will call the military out to "quell" some sort of "disturbance", and he wants the military to support him. I have serious doubts and trepidations as to what will really happen then.

440 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:12pm

re: #409 buzzsawmonkey

Am I missing something?

Sheer, flaming, unabated, non-stop, talk-to-the-hand-cuz-the-face-ain't listening, terminal ODS.

441 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:17pm

re: #431 KingKenrod

Well, they're promoting Glenn Beck now. as you can see on their webpage. Since the article was written a few years ago the author would not have known that in the future they would promote Glenn Beck.

442 big steve  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:18pm

to katemaclaren......I ran the speech part about abortion through gender genie...

That's when we begin to say, "Maybe we won't agree on abortion, but we can still agree that this is a heart-wrenching decision for any woman to make, with both moral and spiritual dimensions. So let's work together to reduce the number of women seeking abortions by reducing unintended pregnancies, and making adoption more available, and providing care and support for women who do carry their child to term. Let's honor the conscience of those who disagree with abortion, and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women."

Understand - I do not suggest that the debate surrounding abortion can or should go away. No matter how much we may want to fudge it - indeed, while we know that the views of most Americans on the subject are complex and even contradictory - the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable. Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature.

Female Score: 370
Male Score: 328

.....so you might be right....Gender Genie thinks a female wrote it. These analysis programs are not always accurate though.

443 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:45pm
444 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:53pm

re: #428 Steffan

Not to mention that if said nuke goes off in Israel, it will also result in the destruction of Mecca, Medina, Qom, and every Arab capital city in the entire region.
Oh, did I forget Iran?

445 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:49:55pm

re: #427 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh really?
Ask the powers that be at Arizona State, who disagree with you and who chose not to award a degree to BHO when he gave the commencement speech there.

446 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:50:04pm

re: #432 tradewind

Michael Steele is a Catholic. I can't imagine that he would espouse a position antithetical to his church for the record.

Michael Steele on March 11, 2009:

Explain that.
The choice issue cuts two ways. You can choose life, or you can choose abortion. You know, my mother chose life. So, you know, I think the power of the argument of choice boils down to stating a case for one or the other.

Are you saying you think women have the right to choose abortion?
Yeah. I mean, again, I think that’s an individual choice.

You do?
Yeah. Absolutely.

He caught a huge amount of flak for that statement and he's now right in line.

447 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:50:12pm

Just that we had best take all of this with what humor we can find...at our own beliefs as well as everyone elses. Not much else can be done until election time but grin and bare it.

448 Proximate  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:50:18pm

Fr. Jenkins speech for understanding and being tolerant of other peoples views was very eloquent.

But it occurred to me that Fr. Jenkins speech was also was a great justification for Notre Dame to bring radical Islamist Tariq Ramadan to the school, to make him chairman of the Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies. Interesting, eh?

449 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:50:39pm

re: #424 Killgore Trout

Paulian groups are the same way. There are dozens if not hundreds of the across the country. Ron Paul has direct control over maybe 2 or 3 of them. The rest are independent grass roots operations.

EFF was established before Beck went insane. Time to stop seeing boogey men where there are none, there are enough real ones with Ron Paul, the DI, and their ilk.

450 LGoPs  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:50:44pm

re: #434 buzzsawmonkey

Surely the matter of his getting an honorary degree--the usual currency for giving a commencement speech--is a matter between the university's administration, its trustees, and its alumni, and for them alone to determine.

And it's not like he's going to run out and get a job based on that degree.

451 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:50:59pm

I'm not sold on Gender Genie. My experience is that it has trouble identifying male writers who don't use a Hemingwayesque style.

re: #442 big steve

to katemaclaren......I ran the speech part about abortion through gender genie...


Female Score: 370
Male Score: 328

.....so you might be right....Gender Genie thinks a female wrote it. These analysis programs are not always accurate though.

452 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:51:08pm

re: #405 tradewind

Again... it is not how he sounds.
It is how he votes.
He has voted consistently anti-life. Even those congressional members who support a woman's right to choose have often drawn the line at late term abortion rights, but not BHO. He has green-lit them.

That's my take also. His teleprompter can talk the talk, but the zero does not walk the walk.

453 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:51:36pm

re: #379 Joan Not of Arc

Of course they gave Obama a standing ovation. That's all anybody ever does. He flip-flops and people stand by him. He pushes for protectionism and people love him. He bails out bankrupt companies and this somehow makes sense. Now he receives an honourary degree just for being there from a university whose mandates- one would assume- should be pro-life. Is anyone going to see this guy as an anti-life fraud? I'm going to get yelled at but this man repulses me. The people who cater to his narcissism, ditto.

As far as I know, Notre Dame does not impose any ideological mandates on it's graduates or on it's faculty. Their job is to educate, not to censor. If they're doing their job, their graduates will have all the tools necessary to evaluate the positions given by any speaker all by themselves.

As for the honorary degree - what field is it for? If they are conferring a Catholic priesthood upon him, then I agree that there is rampant hypocrisy involved. But I doubt that is the case. As already noted, graduates aren't required to pass any ideological muster beyond mastery of the material as measured by GPA in order to receive a degree - and there are many sitting in that audience today who hold far more radical pro-abortion views than you will ever hear from the President. They aren't required to pray five times a day, or attend Mass, or be up to snuff on their confessionals. And frankly, honorary degree recipients are universally held to an even lower standard than undergraduates.

It's difficult for me to see why this matters at all, other than reinforcing that Notre Dame is an institution of learning that is committed to it's goal of providing an excellent education that practices what it preaches when it comes to tolerance and engaging in the marketplace of ideas.

454 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:51:37pm

re: #443 buzzsawmonkey

Again, something for them to determine.

True, but I personally think it makes them look awfully silly. That is, of course, theirs to decide on.

455 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:51:49pm

re: #442 big steve

to katemaclaren......I ran the speech part about abortion through gender genie...

Female Score: 370
Male Score: 328

.....so you might be right....Gender Genie thinks a female wrote it. These analysis programs are not always accurate though.

Hey Steve - I'm very curious and for a specific reason I can't divulge here - are there programs that will tell you whether two different pieces were or were not written by the same person? This would be very helpful for some work I'm doing...

456 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:52:00pm

re: #397 Charles

He voted against the Born Alive act, declared he didn't want his daughters "punished with a baby", wouldn't answer when an unborn baby gets rights (RE: pay grade) and started funding international efforts to support abortion. The only thing Obama has proven in the Notre Dame speech is that he can avoid an issue, not that he is "pro-life".

457 insanity police  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:52:32pm

Going outside to use the new edger. By everyone.

458 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:52:50pm
459 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:53:19pm

re: #446 Charles

So either he is a hypocrite, or he has changed his mind, as did Mitt Romney, Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, and Ronald Reagan.
Actually, a lot of politicians have changed their minds re abortion. Almost always from pro to anti. Maybe they are all just lying, but then again, maybe they have had a crisis of conscience and really believe what they are saying.
Who knows?

460 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:54:20pm

re: #374 Charles

The whole audience is giving him a standing ovation at the finish.

And very well deserved, IMO. I normally can't stand listening to Obama and didn't intend to sit through this entire speech but I couldn't tear myself away. I thought it was excellent and inspiring and he jumped right into the controversy and navigated it well.

/and I'll even leave off the tempting disclaimer about how it doesn't change my opinion of his policies ... well, ok, no, I guess I won't.

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:54:22pm

re: #456 Joan Not of Arc

started funding international efforts to support abortion.

Restored funding that did not restrict abortion, I would argue. The loss of that funding was a blow for a lot of good organizations.

462 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:54:30pm

re: #456 Joan Not of Arc


His actions, votes, and appointments were not part of this feel good photo op.

463 Kronocide  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:54:48pm

re: #409 buzzsawmonkey

Reflexively protesting ....

And therein lies the rub.

464 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:55:13pm

The Born Alive Infant Protection Act was not simply a bill to protect infants "born alive." It was an attempt by the anti-abortion lobby to change the way abortion is defined in the law, and undercut Roe v. Wade. The bill Obama opposed was intended to increase the liability for doctors and hospitals that perform abortions.

This is a good post about it, with lots of quotes from the actual bills and the deceptive language introduced by the Stanek-Santorum crowd:

[Link: blogs.chicagotribune.com...]

This is NOT as simple as "Obama supports baby-killing." I am NO FAN OF BARACK OBAMA, but there's a lot of dishonesty going on in this issue -- from the right-wing side.

465 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:55:31pm

re: #255 avanti

OK, he's the first. It just sometimes seems some on the right are trying to outdo the silliness I saw on the left against Bush.

I don't think the right is going to do the kind of political porn that the left did against Bush. Forex, I don't think we'll see a film speculating on the aftermath of Obama's assassination.

Just the thought of "President Biden" is the best life insurance policy Obama could ever have.

466 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:55:32pm

re: #409 buzzsawmonkey

I am confused by the comments here.

I neither like nor trust Obama, but any, or almost any, university would leap at the chance to have the sitting President give a commencement address, simply because he is the sitting President.

That Obama's positions are at odds with Catholic positions on certain issues is a matter between the University and its trustees; it is for them to make their own peace with it. That Obama himself apparently received an enthusiastic ovation is as much courtesy to a guest and respect for the office as anything else. Disrupting a commencement speech on political grounds shows disrespect to those graduating as well as to the speaker; there will be time enough to criticize anything that is actually said in the speech later on.

Reflexively protesting the President's appearance merely because he is the President and has the temerity to show his face is the kind of pathetic behavior I have seen unhinged lefties engage in since the Vietnam era. It is behavior made no more palatable or convincing merely because I do not like this President, or merely because I might agree with some of the points the protesters wish to make.

Am I missing something?

A thousand updings if I could. Extremely well said. Thank you.

467 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:55:38pm

re: #350 Charles

I know I'm supposed to hate everything about Barack Obama or I'm a very bad conservative,

At the risk of incurring wrath, or at the very least stating the obvious, that's a strawman.

468 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:55:47pm

OK, so someone answer my question! Would it have been doctrinally inappropriate for a Catholic university to have George W. Bush as a commencement speaker?

469 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:56:00pm

re: #459 tradewind

So either he is a hypocrite, or he has changed his mind, as did Mitt Romney, Rudy Giuliani, John McCain, and Ronald Reagan.
Actually, a lot of politicians have changed their minds re abortion. Almost always from pro to anti. Maybe they are all just lying, but then again, maybe they have had a crisis of conscience and really believe what they are saying.
Who knows?

And the only way to tell which alternative it is will be to see what he does going forward from this speech. So far we have nothing but words of a "change".

470 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:56:30pm

re: #449 FurryOldGuyJeans

EFF was established before Beck went insane.

They weren't promoting him back then, They are now. It's on their own fucking webpage at this very moment! I'm not going to squabble with you about this all afternoon. If you don't want to believe it I'm not going to make you. Stay in your own reality but don't expect me to cater to you.

471 MacDuff  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:56:43pm

I am a Roman Catholic and, primarily pro-life in that I find "abortions on demand" and late-term abortions repugnant, but my pro-life stance is not absolute. I can hold these beliefs yet still respect those who hold opposing views. Just as in the question of the death penalty, there are well-reasoned opinions on both side of the argument.

That said, I really do not understand the uproar over Obama's commencement speech at Notre Dame. Regardless of his views on any particular subject and regardless of his politics, he is the POTUS and he should be respected as such. There are other venues where people can deal with political differences and this is not one of them.

If a respected university such as Notre Dame cannot practice tolerance of an opposing viewpoint from the President of the United States then they do not deserve the respect that they have been given.

To those who chose this occasion to show their asses I can only say that expecting tolerance of one's views necessitate your tolerance of the views of others. If you cannot manage that, then you should remove yourself from the debate because you cause great damage to your argument.

472 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:57:05pm

re: #453 SixDegrees

It is the principle. Notre Dame University declares it follows Catholic social traditions. Why it would bestow an honour on a man who has no principles is beyond me.

473 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:57:26pm

re: #319 Killgore Trout

Olympia Tea Party
The organizer is Glenn Beck's Evergreen Freedom Foundation.
Why do you guys even try to defend this nonsense?

I believe the question is why are you trying so very hard to tear down and denigrate people who are protesting democrat tax policies?

474 big steve  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:57:41pm

re: #455 Cato the Elder

Hey Steve - I'm very curious and for a specific reason I can't divulge here - are there programs that will tell you whether two different pieces were or were not written by the same person? This would be very helpful for some work I'm doing...

Gender Genie won't do that but I am willing to be there are programs out that that do what you are interested in.

475 subsailor68  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:58:09pm

Off to the grocery store, as we're out of dog food and Cujo is staring at my toes...and salivating.

I hope everyone here has a wonderful evening!

476 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:58:20pm

re: #455 Cato the Elder

Hey Steve - I'm very curious and for a specific reason I can't divulge here - are there programs that will tell you whether two different pieces were or were not written by the same person? This would be very helpful for some work I'm doing...

There are many such programs. Some appear to be fairly accurate, as long as you have a large enough sample to work from. I don't know of any specifically, but I know such software has been employed to examine whether Shakespeare or some other contemporary author (like Bacon) actually wrote the plays; looks like Shakespeare, as I recall.

Stuff something like "algorithmic textual analysis" into Google and see what pops out.

477 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:58:36pm

re: #472 Joan Not of Arc

It is the principle. Notre Dame University declares it follows Catholic social traditions. Why it would bestow an honour on a man who has no principles is beyond me.

M-O-N-E-Y.

478 ladycatnip  Sun, May 17, 2009 12:59:53pm
But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature.

Really? This coming from the far left camp who has no problem imputing the right with characteristics of the demonic. How ironic.

479 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:00:05pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

They weren't promoting him back then, They are now. It's on their own fucking webpage at this very moment! I'm not going to squabble with you about this all afternoon. If you don't want to believe it I'm not going to make you. Stay in your own reality but don't expect me to cater to you.

They are supporting him, yes, I said that earlier. I won't go as far as you saying EFF is a shadow mouthpiece for the man created by him, as you so boldly stated earlier by calling it "Glenn Beck's Evergreen Freedom Foundation".

480 IslandLibertarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:00:10pm

re: #459 tradewind

I am in the process of changing my mind as I see an agenda of Pro-Abortion pushing through every form of pregnancy termination.
"0"s fluffy rhetoric about loving discourse and debate is more bullshit from the Left. It's really always "Our way, and nothing else!" from them.
I believe "0" is a liar.
And I have from my first seeing him speak at the 2004 Democratic convention.
Smoke and mirrors.

481 avanti  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:00:40pm

re: #460 Lynn B.

And very well deserved, IMO. I normally can't stand listening to Obama and didn't intend to sit through this entire speech but I couldn't tear myself away. I thought it was excellent and inspiring and he jumped right into the controversy and navigated it well.

/and I'll even leave off the tempting disclaimer about how it doesn't change my opinion of his policies ... well, ok, no, I guess I won't.

I just love a honest opinion on the subject at hand, and not colored by other negatives outside of that issue. The fact that you think it was a decent speech, is not like saying you think he's a great POTUS.

482 LGoPs  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:00:53pm

re: #319 Killgore Trout

Olympia Tea Party

The organizer is Glenn Beck's Evergreen Freedom Foundation.
Why do you guys even try to defend this nonsense?


Clearly because we are all insane.......
/ *rolling eyes*

483 quiet man  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:01:02pm

re: #464 Charles

There is a lot of dishonesty from the right on the issue..but not nearly as much as is coming from the left. His votes and appointments are his true way forward, changing the laws without regard to anyones feelings or beliefs in the matter.

The issue isn't about Obama..the speech is. The labels being spooned around is about Obama's issues and how he is dealing with them.

No matter how you look at it, he is far, far to the left on this.

484 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:01:07pm

I'm glancing through the full speech now. Pretty good.

485 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:01:09pm

re: #237 Killgore Trout

Isn't that lovely. The seem to have an obsession with beheadings.

I listen to them from time to time. Sometimes I agree with them, other times I wonder what color the sky is on their planet.

The heads on a stick schtick and the shredder are 'way over the top.

486 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:01:21pm

re: #465 Steffan

I don't think the right is going to do the kind of political porn that the left did against Bush. Forex, I don't think we'll see a film speculating on the aftermath of Obama's assassination.

Just the thought of "President Biden" is the best life insurance policy Obama could ever have.

What's even scarier is that Nancy Pelosi is 2nd in line (Followed by Robert "KKK" Byrd.)

487 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:01:46pm

re: #456 Joan Not of Arc

He voted against the Born Alive act, declared he didn't want his daughters "punished with a baby", wouldn't answer when an unborn baby gets rights (RE: pay grade) and started funding international efforts to support abortion. The only thing Obama has proven in the Notre Dame speech is that he can avoid an issue, not that he is "pro-life".

Actually, the only thing that has been proven with preplanned speeches like this, is that he can read a teleprompter.

488 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:02:10pm

re: #468 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so someone answer my question! Would it have been doctrinally inappropriate for a Catholic university to have George W. Bush as a commencement speaker?

Doctrinally inconsistent. To the same extent and for the same reason it was for Obama. Bush is in direct opposition to Catholic teaching on the death penalty.

And I bet they would have invited him anyway, and the serious anti-death penalty protesters would have been there. But I doubt any big-time Catholic donors would have withheld checks as a result. Being pro-life is just not as sexy when you're talking about death-row inmates.

But the Catholic Church is absolutely consistent in its pro-life stand, from womb to tomb. Gotta respect it for that.

489 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:02:16pm

re: #483 quiet man

There is a lot of dishonesty from the right on the issue..but not nearly as much as is coming from the left. His votes and appointments are his true way forward, changing the laws without regard to anyones feelings or beliefs in the matter.

The issue isn't about Obama..the speech is. The labels being spooned around is about Obama's issues and how he is dealing with them.

No matter how you look at it, he is far, far to the left on this.

Did you even click on the link I posted, or are you so invested in your dislike of Obama that you've stopped caring about the truth?

490 gmsc  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:02:22pm

re: #450 LGoPs

And it's not like he's going to run out and get a job based on that degree.

...or use that degree to encourage even one other person to get a job.

491 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:02:46pm

re: #464 Charles

I don't hate everything about BHO. I hope his presidency succeeds.. at least as far as in protecting and defending the US and its constitution. I think he has a lovely family, and he speaks beautifully when prepared.
I do believe that his moral center is just not there when it comes to what he believes... he has shown himself to be as malleable as modeling clay when it suits his political purpose. I cannot see him taking serious or uncalculated political heat for a principle... only heat that he has determined in advance will actually help him, such as outrage from the fringes of either side.
His position on abortion has been clearly spelled out in his voting record, not just in one vote. He has a perfect score from NARAL. Not a lot of common ground seeking there.
But I will agree, a lot of lip service to it.

492 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:03:40pm

re: #488 Cato the Elder

Doctrinally inconsistent. To the same extent and for the same reason it was for Obama. Bush is in direct opposition to Catholic teaching on the death penalty.

And I bet they would have invited him anyway, and the serious anti-death penalty protesters would have been there. But I doubt any big-time Catholic donors would have withheld checks as a result. Being pro-life is just not as sexy when you're talking about death-row inmates.

But the Catholic Church is absolutely consistent in its pro-life stand, from womb to tomb. Gotta respect it for that.

I think you're right on with that analysis.

493 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:03:44pm
494 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:04:02pm

re: #470 Killgore Trout

Oh, and to answer your original question of how can I support such an organization, I don't. Not before they supported Beck, not now that they are.

But do continue on your Anti-Beck crusade, I shan't try stopping you.

495 Ward Cleaver  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:04:17pm
That’s when we begin to say, “Maybe we won’t agree on abortion, but we can still agree that this is a heart-wrenching decision for any woman to make, with both moral and spiritual dimensions. So let’s work together to reduce the number of women seeking abortions by reducing unintended pregnancies, and making adoption more available, and providing care and support for women who do carry their child to term. Let’s honor the conscience of those who disagree with abortion, and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women.”

Typical moral cowardice.

496 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:04:30pm

re: #473 Wendya

I believe the question is why are you trying so very hard to tear down and denigrate people who are protesting democrat tax policies?

That's just Killgore. He's proven time after time that he's scared shitless that someone is openly against statist policies.

497 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:05:46pm

re: #472 Joan Not of Arc

It is the principle. Notre Dame University declares it follows Catholic social traditions. Why it would bestow an honour on a man who has no principles is beyond me.

Read over the portion of his speech, above, dealing with abortion. Doesn't sound problematic to me at all.

But that's beside the point. Notre Dame grants degrees to thousands of people every year who don't share the Catholic Church's doctrinal views. Because adherence to those doctrines is not a measure of fitness to graduate. Notre Dame University is not a church, and it isn't granting anyone a priesthood.

Stating that 0bama has no principles is simply over the top. He has principles that you - and I - may strongly disagree with. But a man with no principles is not a man, and casting such an aspersion is an attempt to dehumanize your opponent.

I'll say it for the fourth or fifth time: granting this degree only strengthens Notre Dame's reputation as an institution of higher learning. See above for further discussion on this point.

498 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:06:02pm

re: #495 Ward Cleaver

Typical moral cowardice.

Why? You may disagree with him on the grounds that you want abortion to be illegal, but we've fought this one hard for decades, and it's not going to happen.

What in that paragraph can anyone disagree with, as long as legal abortion remains the law of the land?

500 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:07:43pm

re: #498 SanFranciscoZionist

Why? You may disagree with him on the grounds that you want abortion to be illegal, but we've fought this one hard for decades, and it's not going to happen.

What in that paragraph can anyone disagree with, as long as legal abortion remains the law of the land?

I've never wanted it illegal, I just want the issue be given back to each state for the voters therein to make a decision. Roe v. Wade was bad law, pure and simple.

501 brookly red  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:08:01pm

re: #495 Ward Cleaver

Typical moral cowardice.

"and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science,"

"and let's all stick together until I can pass my health care agenda" was my take.

502 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:08:14pm

OK, as long as it continues to be deemed clever and funny to write "0bama", I'm going to type "Bu$h" every time the ex-president's name comes up.

503 ladycatnip  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:08:15pm

#495 Ward Cleaver

Typical moral cowardice.

That about sums it up for me. I remember when he said his "pay grade wasn't high enough" to answer the question of when life begins. I'd rather have an honest and up-front guy than one who evades, dodges and deflects issues - which he does with astounding competence.

As for his speech, I give Teleprompter above average marks.

504 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:08:21pm

re: #486 Opilio

What's even scarier is that Nancy Pelosi is 2nd in line

Thank you! Most people would say she's third in line, but Obama isn't in line.

/pet peeve

505 Ward Cleaver  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:08:39pm

re: #498 SanFranciscoZionist

Why? You may disagree with him on the grounds that you want abortion to be illegal, but we've fought this one hard for decades, and it's not going to happen.

What in that paragraph can anyone disagree with, as long as legal abortion remains the law of the land?

His speaking at a Catholic university scandalizes the university, and the Catholic students there.

506 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:09:15pm

re: #500 FurryOldGuyJeans

I've never wanted it illegal, I just want the issue be given back to each state for the voters therein to make a decision. Roe v. Wade was bad law, pure and simple.

Fair stance. Given Roe's continued existence (which is not Obama's call, that really is above his pay grade), do you think anything in the paragraph in question is cowardly or bad?

507 gymnast  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:09:44pm

Just what is "Obama's Truth"? Have we heard enough non- truths and half-truths from Obama to judge his veracity? I have. He fails the test. He fails miserably. His short and mendacious record speaks for itself.

508 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:09:55pm

re: #502 Cato the Elder

OK, as long as it continues to be deemed clever and funny to write "0bama", I'm going to type "Bu$h" every time the ex-president's name comes up.

It's not clever or funny. Please, people, spelling counts.

509 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:10:00pm

re: #505 Ward Cleaver

His speaking at a Catholic university scandalizes the university, and the Catholic students there.

Obviously not.

And would pro-death penalty Bush have scandalized them too?

510 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:10:33pm

re: #506 SanFranciscoZionist

Fair stance. Given Roe's continued existence (which is not Obama's call, that really is above his pay grade), do you think anything in the paragraph in question is cowardly or bad?

Typical political pandering is what I see.

511 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:10:56pm

re: #505 Ward Cleaver

His speaking at a Catholic university scandalizes the university, and the Catholic students there.

Neither the officials nor the students looked particularly scandalized to me. There were clearly parts of the speech they liked better than others but overall they showed respect for the speaker and the office. As Obama said, they responded to the controversy with maturity. It reflects well on those who did.

512 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:11:24pm

re: #508 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not clever or funny. Please, people, spelling counts.

It will be the hit of the preschooler set.

513 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:11:25pm

re: #276 FurryOldGuyJeans

Time to open your eyes and look around you. Charles has posted two pictures from a California Tea Party.

The level of irrational hatred against Obama simply because he is POTUS is at a level after only 4 months that took much longer with the Libs and Bush, and shows signs of only increasing.

I don't know if it took that much longer. You may recall that Gore tried to steal the election with the active help of the Florida Supreme Court. After SCOTUS smacked him down, the lefties claimed that Bush stole the election.

In their eyes, he was illegitimate from day one.

If I knew Obama socially, I'd probably like him -- he's a very affable person. On his job performance and policies, however, I will not cut him any slack at all. If he deliberately wanted to wreck this country, he could not do any more damage than he has already done.

514 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:11:48pm

re: #473 Wendya

I believe the question is why are you trying so very hard to tear down and denigrate people who are protesting democrat tax policies?


Because it's a quack movement run by nuts. Do you know how easy it is to dig up dirt on the Tea Party organizers? The real problem is that the normal conservatives who make up the majority of the attendees don't care that they're being used to advance extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul. Either they don't care or they're deluding themselves. As this thread demonstrates there's a clear disconnect with the reality of what's going on.

515 KingKenrod  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:11:56pm

Obama's maneuvering on abortion is the same one Hillary Clinton has been using for years, which is something like "It's perfectly fine to oppose abortion as a matter of conscience, but you cannot also in good conscience oppose public programs designed to prevent pregnancy or support women with children, because those programs actually do prevent abortions".

It's a very clever argument, posing the question as choice between social conservatism and fiscal conservatism.

516 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:12:01pm

re: #510 FurryOldGuyJeans

Typical political pandering is what I see.

Now, that's possible. Good speech, I thought, anyway.

517 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:12:32pm

re: #505 Ward Cleaver

His speaking at a Catholic university scandalizes the university, and the Catholic students there.

This is probably one of the reasons their football team sucks so bad. God is pissed. ;)

518 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:13:00pm

re: #28 Shug

Did Alan Keyes protest when Norte Dame employed that radical Islamist, can't remember his name ?

So he has to protest every issue or his position is not valid?

519 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:13:35pm

re: #506 SanFranciscoZionist

Fair stance. Given Roe's continued existence (which is not Obama's call, that really is above his pay grade), do you think anything in the paragraph in question is cowardly or bad?

Actually, it probably is his call for the foreseeable future, given the Supreme Court nomination(s) he'll be making.

520 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:13:56pm

re: #509 Cato the Elder

Obviously not.

And would pro-death penalty Bush have scandalized them too?

I heard a priest describing the difference in their view between taking innocent human life and terminating evil.

521 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:13:57pm

re: #512 FurryOldGuyJeans

It will be the hit of the preschooler set.

I believe SFZ was referring to the endless oh-so-witty "0" in "0bama", with which I take issue. It is indeed on the preschool, or rather grade-school level.

522 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:14:09pm

re: #485 Steffan

I listen to them from time to time. Sometimes I agree with them, other times I wonder what color the sky is on their planet.

The heads on a stick schtick and the shredder are 'way over the top.

If they just did it as schtick for a radio show I wouldn't mind so much but as a "serious" political statement I think it's pretty tasteless and possible even dangerous. It's the kind of thing that might get the attention of the Secret Service.

523 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:14:11pm

re: #516 SanFranciscoZionist

Now, that's possible. Good speech, I thought, anyway.

Good and pandering are not mutually exclusive.

This was not a venue for outlining policy, so really nebulous was expected, and I feel it was achieved.

524 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:14:19pm
525 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:14:39pm

re: #520 kansas

I heard a priest describing the difference in their view between taking innocent human life and terminating evil.

The Catholic Church is unequivocal in its condemnation of the death penalty, whatever that priest may think.

526 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:15:27pm

re: #521 Cato the Elder

You can't say the same about БХО. Those are his initials. In Russian.

527 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:15:55pm

re: #521 Cato the Elder

I believe SFZ was referring to the endless oh-so-witty "0" in "0bama", with which I take issue. It is indeed on the preschool, or rather grade-school level.

I know what you were referring to, it was your decision to reply in kind that elevated your remark to preschool level.

528 UberInfidel67  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:16:01pm

From the snippet of his speech: "and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women."

In other words, draft the clause to FORCE religious hospitals to perform abortions.

529 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:16:12pm

re: #526 Macker

You can't say the same about БХО. Those are his initials. In Russian.

All the more childish. Get a grip.

530 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:16:31pm

re: #518 kansas

So he has to protest every issue or his position is not valid?

Alan Keyes' position is not valid because he is a raving, ranting lunatic. This is a man who disowned his daughter and cut off all financial support when she came out as a lesbian. This is a man who promotes the "birth certificate" garbage, and predicts revolution in America. He's a bigoted, conspiracy theory-spouting idiot.

531 Crimsonfisted  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:16:37pm

IMHO, Obama LOVES the division and discord he has created with this. He is enjoying rubbing our faces in this. This is all about him stomping on the Catholic church. And he loves it. I think this is why the Pope hasn't responded. He sees and understands the real reason that this idiot is doing this.

532 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:16:49pm

re: #525 Cato the Elder

The Catholic Church is unequivocal in its condemnation of the death penalty, whatever that priest may think.

Hmmm. So pretty much political speakers at Notre Dame might be hard to come by if they had to meet every precept of the Catholic Church?

533 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:17:27pm

re: #530 Charles

Alan Keyes' position is not valid because he is a raving, ranting lunatic. This is a man who disowned his daughter and cut off all financial support when she came out as a lesbian. This is a man who promotes the "birth certificate" garbage, and predicts revolution in America. He's a bigoted, conspiracy theory-spouting idiot.

I did not know all that about him.

534 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:17:42pm

re: #527 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know what you were referring to, it was your decision to reply in kind that elevated your remark to preschool level.

Elevated? You flatter me.

535 MacDuff  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:18:02pm

re: #502 Cato the Elder

OK, as long as it continues to be deemed clever and funny to write "0bama", I'm going to type "Bu$h" every time the ex-president's name comes up.

Personally, I'm determined to give Obama more respect than the Left ever gave Bush - to do less disrespects the office . ODS is no different than BDS; it's just another form of derangement. He will rise, or fall on the merits of his policies and THAT is the proper field of battle, and THAT is where we can expect to win.

536 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:18:05pm

re: #514 Killgore Trout

Because it's a quack movement run by nuts. Do you know how easy it is to dig up dirt on the Tea Party organizers? The real problem is that the normal conservatives who make up the majority of the attendees don't care that they're being used to advance extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul. Either they don't care or they're deluding themselves. As this thread demonstrates there's a clear disconnect with the reality of what's going on.

I believe the disconnect with reality is yours alone.

I know the protest organizer from my town. He is a normal conservative.

If you believe protesting against this administrations fiscal policies is advancing an extremist agenda, that says volumes about you.

537 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:18:08pm

re: #514 Killgore Trout

I appreciate the work you have done showing the huge downside to the tea parties. I have the sense that people here are looking for a venue to vent their frustration against whatever they dislike politically.

538 Bloodnok  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:18:21pm

re: #531 Crimsonfisted

IMHO, Obama LOVES the division and discord he has created with this. He is enjoying rubbing our faces in this. This is all about him stomping on the Catholic church. And he loves it. I think this is why the Pope hasn't responded. He sees and understands the real reason that this idiot is doing this.

He was a President asked to give a commencement address. And he did. You can add sinister mustache twirls to it if you want to.

539 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:18:32pm

re: #528 UberInfidel67

From the snippet of his speech: "and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women."

In other words, draft the clause to FORCE religious hospitals to perform abortions.

Actually, he was saying exactly the opposite.

540 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:18:33pm

re: #529 Cato the Elder

As long as he's a DFC, I'll damn well use those initials here.

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:18:57pm

re: #515 KingKenrod

Obama's maneuvering on abortion is the same one Hillary Clinton has been using for years, which is something like "It's perfectly fine to oppose abortion as a matter of conscience, but you cannot also in good conscience oppose public programs designed to prevent pregnancy or support women with children, because those programs actually do prevent abortions".

It's a very clever argument, posing the question as choice between social conservatism and fiscal conservatism.

I'm sorry, but if people are going to cry for the children lost to abortion, I lose some respect when they then recoil at the thought that they pay taxes to take care of them. If this seems cold, I'm sorry, but you cannot say that society has a vested interest in a woman bearing a child, but no interest in the feeding of same child.

542 NelsFree  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:19:05pm

re: #465 Steffan

I don't think the right is going to do the kind of political porn that the left did against Bush. Forex, I don't think we'll see a film speculating on the aftermath of Obama's assassination.

Just the thought of "President Biden" is the best life insurance policy Obama could ever have.

Steffan, there was a Bloom County Sunday comic several years ago during Bush 42 that had Opus and (I forget his name) kid trying to get sweat out of Bill the Cat. Finally, the kid took Bill by his (?) shoulders and said, "PRESIDENT QUAYLE!". In the final panel, they all sweated.
I'm afraid you just did the same thing.

543 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:19:14pm

re: #537 debutaunt

Thanks.

544 austin_blue  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:19:29pm

re: #500 FurryOldGuyJeans

I've never wanted it illegal, I just want the issue be given back to each state for the voters therein to make a decision. Roe v. Wade was bad law, pure and simple.

So if you have two 16-year Little Miss Cupcakes who get in trouble with their respective boyfriends, the one in Florida can terminate her pregnancy legally at six weeks but the one in Texas can't? How do you think that'll play in Highland Park or River Oaks?

(ducks for cover)

545 gmsc  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:19:32pm

re: #514 Killgore Trout

Because it's a quack movement run by nuts. Do you know how easy it is to dig up dirt on the Tea Party organizers? The real problem is that the normal conservatives who make up the majority of the attendees don't care that they're being used to advance extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul. Either they don't care or they're deluding themselves. As this thread demonstrates there's a clear disconnect with the reality of what's going on.

Yeah! The bath water is dirty, and it was the baby that made it dirty! I know! Let's throw the baby out with the bath water! That should solve all the problems!

/Killgore Trout impression complete

546 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:19:33pm

re: #530 Charles

Alan Keyes' position is not valid because he is a raving, ranting lunatic. This is a man who disowned his daughter and cut off all financial support when she came out as a lesbian. This is a man who promotes the "birth certificate" garbage, and predicts revolution in America. He's a bigoted, conspiracy theory-spouting idiot.

/not to mention the stepping stone "opponent" for Obama's Senate win/presidential campaign

547 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:19:56pm

re: #520 kansas

I heard a priest describing the difference in their view between taking innocent human life and terminating evil.

That may be his opinion, and it's closer to mine, but that's not the Church's stance.

548 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:20:11pm

re: #532 kansas

Hmmm. So pretty much political speakers at Notre Dame might be hard to come by if they had to meet every precept of the Catholic Church?

In a word: yes.

549 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:20:25pm

re: #546 Killian Bundy

Mike, I wish you would have run....

550 carefulnow  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:20:38pm

Is Obama getting a pass?

Perhaps because the church folks I worked with were so welcoming and understanding; perhaps because they invited me to their services and sang with me from their hymnals; perhaps because I witnessed all of the good works their faith inspired them to perform, I found myself drawn _ not just to work with the church, but to be in the church.
551 Crimsonfisted  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:20:55pm

re: #538 Bloodnok

He was a President asked to give a commencement address. And he did. You can add sinister mustache twirls to it if you want to.

Well, thank you for your permission to mustache twirl. I needed that.

/sarc off.

552 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:21:22pm

re: #528 UberInfidel67

From the snippet of his speech: "and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women."

In other words, draft the clause to FORCE religious hospitals to perform abortions.

That's exactly wrong. A "sensible conscience clause" is intended to give religious hospitals the right NOT to perform abortions.

Sheesh.

553 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:21:58pm

re: #523 FurryOldGuyJeans

Good and pandering are not mutually exclusive.
... so really nebulous was expected, and I feel it was achieved.

It was the zero and his teleprompter. I didn't expect anything else. All his prepared speeches are like that.

554 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:22:18pm

re: #540 Macker

As long as he's a DFC, I'll damn well use those initials here.

Your privilege. Makes you look bu$h league, but who am I to stop you?

555 Jetpilot1101  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:22:22pm

While I understand why some Catholic are angry at President Obama speaking at Notre dame, wouldn't it be bette to respect the office, allow him to speak and in doing so possibly open up a dialogue with him to discuss is views on abortion? It seems to me that protesting the speech is not only an exercise in futility but a really good way to slam any door that Mr. Obama may have wanted to open.

556 Annar  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:22:49pm

re: #295 Killian Bundy

Obama Breaks With Gates, Cancels Nuke Program

Against military advice.

/so much for our superpower status

Your choice now is to decide which language to study as a priority. The choices being Arabic, Chinese or Russian. Those with a natural ability might want to hedge their bets and go for all three.

557 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:23:04pm

re: #549 Macker

Mike, I wish you would have run....

/unlike Keyes, Ditka would have given Obama some real competition in Illinois, might have nipped Obama in the bud right there

558 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:23:08pm

re: #552 Charles

That's exactly wrong. A "sensible conscience clause" is intended to give religious hospitals the right NOT to perform abortions.

Sheesh.

Perhaps what might occur is this: a religious hospital could be free to decline performing abortions, and in so doing, lose all federal funding.

559 Joan Not of Arc  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:23:32pm

re: #497 SixDegrees

Read over the portion of his speech, above, dealing with abortion. Doesn't sound problematic to me at all.

But that's beside the point. Notre Dame grants degrees to thousands of people every year who don't share the Catholic Church's doctrinal views. Because adherence to those doctrines is not a measure of fitness to graduate. Notre Dame University is not a church, and it isn't granting anyone a priesthood.

Stating that 0bama has no principles is simply over the top. He has principles that you - and I - may strongly disagree with. But a man with no principles is not a man, and casting such an aspersion is an attempt to dehumanize your opponent.

I'll say it for the fourth or fifth time: granting this degree only strengthens Notre Dame's reputation as an institution of higher learning. See above for further discussion on this point.

That is true, Notre Dame University isn't a church; it just (allegedly) adheres to tenets of the Church. So, giving any degree- without having earned it through experience, knowledge or character- is correct how? And to give the degree to Obama, who has yet to prove himself capable morally or politically as a leader, is just following the same patterns we've seen since he became president. His every word and action is somehow golden.
This leads to my second point: he doesn't have principles worth following. Does that sound more palatable? I would argue he has none. He does what he does for attention, votes, what have you. I truly believe he cares not a whit for your country, or anyone elses. Even if he ends up a one-termer, it wouldn't matter about deficits, job losses or loss of world standing because he can walk away into his stored-up wealth.
I don't believe Notre Dame's conferring of a degree on him does make it stronger. It gave an honourary degree to someone who didn't deserve it, whose "principles" are contrary to Catholic teaching and whose time in the limelight just smacks of self-absorption.
I know I keep harping on about these things but they bother me a great deal.

560 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:23:33pm

re: #554 Cato the Elder

Tits for tat, my friend.

561 LGoPs  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:23:41pm

re: #514 Killgore Trout

Because it's a quack movement run by nuts. Do you know how easy it is to dig up dirt on the Tea Party organizers? The real problem is that the normal conservatives who make up the majority of the attendees don't care that they're being used to advance extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul. Either they don't care or they're deluding themselves. As this thread demonstrates there's a clear disconnect with the reality of what's going on.

I will keep my own counsel on whether I'm being manipulated or not, thank you. My wife and I went to a protest yesterday and all I saw were respectful, decent people exercising their right to let the government know that it is going too far. The most relaxed people at the event were the handful of police officers there. And yeah, I saw a Ron Paul sign, back behind a tent off in a corner. I certainly didn't see any overarching dark influence going on.

562 carefulnow  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:24:08pm

re: #558 Macker

I think you're probably right there.

563 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:24:11pm

re: #557 Killian Bundy

/unlike Keyes, Ditka would have given Obama some real competition in Illinois, might have nipped Obama in the bud right there

If I could give you 1,000 updings I would!

564 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:24:25pm

re: #544 austin_blue

So if you have two 16-year Little Miss Cupcakes who get in trouble with their respective boyfriends, the one in Florida can terminate her pregnancy legally at six weeks but the one in Texas can't? How do you think that'll play in Highland Park or River Oaks?

(ducks for cover)

Don't know, and frankly don't care.

Roe v. Wade is bad law, just like Dred Scott v. Sanford was bad law.

It is high time to give the responsibility for making a decision on this away from unelected judges and back to the people and their representatives.

565 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:24:42pm

re: #514 Killgore Trout

Because it's a quack movement run by nuts. Do you know how easy it is to dig up dirt on the Tea Party organizers? The real problem is that the normal conservatives who make up the majority of the attendees don't care that they're being used to advance extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul. Either they don't care or they're deluding themselves. As this thread demonstrates there's a clear disconnect with the reality of what's going on.

Yeah, I'll say there is. Now, as soon as an organization promotes Glenn Beck, he suddenly owns it. /

People might be more receptive to what you're saying if you would lay off a little bit (and making sure you're right before making claims wouldn't hurt, either).

566 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:24:44pm

re: #558 Macker

Perhaps what might occur is this: a religious hospital could be free to decline performing abortions, and in so doing, lose all federal funding.

No -- that is the situation NOW. A conscience clause is intended to fix that.

567 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:24:56pm

re: #560 Macker

Tits for tat, my friend.

Why multiple tits, but only a single tat?

/

568 gmsc  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:25:00pm

re: #295 Killian Bundy

Obama Breaks With Gates, Cancels Nuke Program

Against military advice.

/so much for our superpower status

Which brings up the perpetual question: If 0bama truly were trying to destroy the United States from within, what would he be doing differently?

569 Silvergirl  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:25:10pm

re: #449 FurryOldGuyJeans

EFF was established before Beck went insane. Time to stop seeing boogey men where there are none, there are enough real ones with Ron Paul, the DI, and their ilk.

A while back KT said he was looking crossways at everyone. He said his paranoia goes away with pot smoking. Time to light up?

570 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:25:24pm

re: #528 UberInfidel67

Curious that you omitted the beginning of that sentence you quoted...

Let's honor the conscience of those who disagree with abortion, and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women.

571 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:25:33pm
572 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:26:17pm

re: #564 FurryOldGuyJeans

Don't know, and frankly don't care.

Roe v. Wade is bad law, just like Dred Scott v. Sanford was bad law.

It is high time to give the responsibility for making a decision on this away from unelected judges and back to the people and their representatives.

Well, looks like that isn't all good either since those 51 percent and 60 in the senate have now figured out how to screw 49% of us.

573 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:26:44pm

re: #532 kansas

Hmmm. So pretty much political speakers at Notre Dame might be hard to come by if they had to meet every precept of the Catholic Church?

They would be.

574 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:26:57pm

re: #509 Cato the Elder

Obviously not.

And would pro-death penalty Bush have scandalized them too?

I doubt it.

While the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," it also says, "He that smiteth a man, so that he dies, must surely die also."

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.

575 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:27:30pm

re: #514 Killgore Trout

Because it's a quack movement run by nuts. Do you know how easy it is to dig up dirt on the Tea Party organizers? The real problem is that the normal conservatives who make up the majority of the attendees don't care that they're being used to advance extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul. Either they don't care or they're deluding themselves. As this thread demonstrates there's a clear disconnect with the reality of what's going on.

Everybody's using everybody with these "tea party" events.

It's possible that some "normal conservatives" believe that in their participation in these things, they can minimize the impact of extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul.

Now, I don't think that will happen. But it is entirely possible that some of the folks here believe that they can indeed have that sort of impact.

576 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:27:30pm

re: #564 FurryOldGuyJeans

Don't know, and frankly don't care.

Roe v. Wade is bad law, just like Dred Scott v. Sanford was bad law.

It is high time to give the responsibility for making a decision on this away from unelected judges and back to the people and their representatives.

And therein lies the problem. Prior to Roe v. Wade, this issue was decided by the states, and needs to go back there.
But you see, those pro-abortion groups don't want to work fifty separate state legislatures to get their agenda to pass. It's the same thing with the gay "marriage" issue.

577 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:27:50pm

re: #528 UberInfidel67

From the snippet of his speech: "and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health care policies are grounded in clear ethics and sound science, as well as respect for the equality of women."

In other words, draft the clause to FORCE religious hospitals to perform abortions.

How do you get there from that?

578 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:27:51pm

re: #565 capitalist piglet


People might be more receptive to what you're saying if you would lay off a little bit (and making sure you're right before making claims wouldn't hurt, either).


Nope. Why should I be quiet about this? I'll continue to expose jihadists, antisemites, neonazis, Paulians and Glenn Beck nuts. I see no need to stop.

579 brookly red  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:27:55pm

I guess I am just a cynic, but I just don't totally believe any politician making speeches, ever.

580 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:27:59pm

re: #519 Opilio

IMO, no human or group of humans will have the fortitude to treat Roe as it should be treated... as a bad piece of legislation, flawed from its inception, regardless of one's stance on the right to an abortion. Many judicial purists, even those who are pro-abortion rights, agree...
It's simply bad law. That it's attached to the issue of abortion is unfortunate, and will prevent its overturn.

581 UberInfidel67  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:28:10pm

re: #539 Lynn B.

Actually, he was saying exactly the opposite.

Ahh, no. " Michael Moses, a top attorney for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, adds that the language of FOCA is so far-reaching that it will remove any conscience clause measures from state laws that protect doctors, hospitals and medical professionals who don't want to be involved in abortions."
[Link: www.lifenews.com...]

582 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:28:35pm

re: #568 gmsc

Which brings up the perpetual question: If 0bama truly were trying to destroy the United States from within, what would he be doing differently?

I'd say he wants to destroy it from both within and without.

583 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:28:36pm

Has anyone who's been bashing Obama for the Born Alive Infant Protection Act read the link I gave in this comment?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

This issue has been egregiously distorted by the right wing. Obama did NOT vote to allow late term abortions or the killing of infants born alive -- he voted against a stealth anti-abortion bill that was intended to change the way abortion is defined in the law, promoted by Jill Stanek and Rick Santorum.

584 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:28:38pm

re: #572 kansas

Well, looks like that isn't all good either since those 51 percent and 60 in the senate have now figured out how to screw 49% of us.

Representative Democracy is not going to satisfy everyone. There will always be an aggrieved minority.

585 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:29:02pm

re: #580 tradewind

IMO, no human or group of humans will have the fortitude to treat Roe as it should be treated... as a bad piece of legislation, flawed from its inception, regardless of one's stance on the right to an abortion. Many judicial purists, even those who are pro-abortion rights, agree...
It's simply bad law. That it's attached to the issue of abortion is unfortunate, and will prevent its overturn.

Is Roe v Wade legislation, or was it a court decision?

586 Sheila Broflovski  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:29:30pm

re: #574 Steffan

I doubt it.

While the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," it also says, "He that smiteth a man, so that he dies, must surely die also."

The bible says לא תרצח "Thou shalt not commit murder" It does not say לא להרג "Thou shalt not kill"

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.

This is from the section pertaining to tort law, and sets the value of damages. It has nothing to do with knocking out eyes or teeth.

587 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:29:55pm

re: #575 reine.de.tout

Everybody's using everybody with these "tea party" events.

It's possible that some "normal conservatives" believe that in their participation in these things, they can minimize the impact of extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul.

Now, I don't think that will happen. But it is entirely possible that some of the folks here believe that they can indeed have that sort of impact.

It's frustrating to have a good idea ruined by people whose motives are very suspect.

588 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:30:10pm

re: #585 reine.de.tout

SCOTUS, 5-4.

589 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:30:30pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Nope. Why should I be quiet about this? I'll continue to expose jihadists, antisemites, neonazis, Paulians and Glenn Beck nuts. I see no need to stop.

Hey, it's your crusade. Knock yourself out. I'm just trying to tell you that you lose people's attention when you harp hysterically and ceaselessly on it...especially when you aren't always honest (upthread, for example).

590 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:30:34pm

re: #545 gmsc

Yeah! The bath water is dirty, and it was the baby that made it dirty! I know! Let's throw the baby out with the bath water! That should solve all the problems!

/Killgore Trout impression complete

Actually, I think Killgore is suggesting we remove the baby from the water and dry it off.

Or something.

591 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:30:56pm

re: #578 Killgore Trout

Nope. Why should I be quiet about this? I'll continue to expose jihadists, antisemites, neonazis, Paulians and Glenn Beck nuts. I see no need to stop.

Keep making unsubstantiated claims such as Beck owning EFF or you will become as highly regarded as nirthers or troofers.

592 baldeagle  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:30:57pm

I think I want to marry"Joan Not Of Arc"

593 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:31:11pm

re: #590 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, I think Killgore is suggesting we remove the baby from the water and dry it off.

Or something.

How?

594 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:31:30pm

re: #575 reine.de.tout

It's possible that some "normal conservatives" believe that in their participation in these things, they can minimize the impact of extremists like Glenn Beck and Ron Paul.


I haven't seen anyone make that argument yet. Most of the Tea Party supporters here just deny or dismiss the connections to nuts and extremists. I imagine there are quite a few who acknowledge it to themselves but continue to support the Tea Parties anyways. We saw a lot of people do that with Euronazis in the counterjihad movement. It's a choice that a lot of people made.

595 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:31:43pm

re: #576 Macker

And therein lies the problem. Prior to Roe v. Wade, this issue was decided by the states, and needs to go back there.
But you see, those pro-abortion groups don't want to work fifty separate state legislatures to get their agenda to pass. It's the same thing with the gay "marriage" issue.

Again -- the true situation is exactly opposite. It's the anti-abortion advocates who don't want the issue to be decided by individual states, because then a woman who wanted an abortion could simply travel to a state where it was legal.

The anti-abortion groups want federal laws, and even constitutional amendments, to outlaw abortion for everyone in every state.

596 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:31:51pm
597 Opilio  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:31:55pm

re: #585 reine.de.tout

Is Roe v Wade legislation, or was it a court decision?

Court decision.

598 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:32:08pm

re: #585 reine.de.tout

Is Roe v Wade legislation, or was it a court decision?

SCOTUS decision, definitely not legislation.

599 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:32:13pm

re: #555 Jetpilot1101

While I understand why some Catholic are angry at President Obama speaking at Notre dame, wouldn't it be bette to respect the office, allow him to speak and in doing so possibly open up a dialogue with him to discuss is views on abortion? It seems to me that protesting the speech is not only an exercise in futility but a really good way to slam any door that Mr. Obama may have wanted to open.

Actually, I think most Catholics did exactly that. And most of the protestors, I'm gonna bet, behaved nicely.

A few crazies, you always get a few crazies.

600 carefulnow  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:32:20pm

re: #566 Charles

Are you sure? I thought FOCA was just the opposite.

601 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:32:23pm

re: #533 kansas
Nor did I. That stinks, and okay....now it seems that indeed,
he is a raving, ranting lunatic.
Interesting.... despite the fact that the Cheneys sensibly and predictably continued to love and support their daughter when she came out, they got no credit for it from gay rights groups.

602 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:33:16pm

re: #586 Alouette

This is from the section pertaining to tort law, and sets the value of damages. It has nothing to do with knocking out eyes or teeth.

How I love a good old fashioned smite.

603 Macker  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:33:38pm

re: #595 Charles

I guess I'm glad I don't belong to those groups then, eh. I was merely expressing my own opinion, that's all.

604 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:33:43pm

re: #601 tradewind

Nor did I. That stinks, and okay....now it seems that indeed,
he is a raving, ranting lunatic.
Interesting.... despite the fact that the Cheneys sensibly and predictably continued to love and support their daughter when she came out, they got no credit for it from gay rights groups.

That is because it was Darth Cheney, Master of the Rs.

605 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:33:45pm

If honorary doctorates had to be "earned", they wouldn't be honorary, would they?

It's like Bill Gates being named an honorary member of the board at some company, or someone getting the keys to the city of Podunk for giving a speech or cutting a ribbon.

You could fill a walk-in closet with the honorary degrees Henry Kissinger has had bestowed on him. Doesn't make him one whit smarter or more credible. He is what he is.

Occasionally some pompous ass will go home with his phony degree and insist that everyone start calling him "doctor" from now on. I actually know such a person.

Otherwise it goes in the closet with your junior chamber of commerce awards and cheesy trophies from high school.

606 Killian Bundy  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:34:05pm

re: #568 gmsc

Which brings up the perpetual question: If 0bama truly were trying to destroy the United States from within, what would he be doing differently?

Let's see, degrade our military defenses, degrade capitalism and markets, massively upgrade social welfare programs, massively increase the national debt . . . check. Well, I can't think of anything else.

WWPDD?

/what would Putin do differently?

607 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:34:09pm

re: #581 UberInfidel67

Ahh, no. " Michael Moses, a top attorney for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, adds that the language of FOCA is so far-reaching that it will remove any conscience clause measures from state laws that protect doctors, hospitals and medical professionals who don't want to be involved in abortions."
[Link: www.lifenews.com...]

Since you've cherry-picked the quote from Obama's speech in the first place to make it sound like he meant exactly the opposite of what he said, I don't see how reference to lifenews.com helps your argument.

/off to the gym now ... bbl

608 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:34:16pm

re: #537 debutaunt

I appreciate the work you have done showing the huge downside to the tea parties. I have the sense that people here are looking for a venue to vent their frustration against whatever they dislike politically.

Sorry. But the tea party I attended had nothing of which you speak. It was nothing but everyday people voicing their conservative values against a government that will not represent them. I didn't see nor hear screaming of any kind from any, as you say, "extremist factions". And, by the way, it is our right and duty to protest what many see as a corrupt and out-of-control government.

609 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:34:34pm

re: #591 FurryOldGuyJeans

By the way, The organizer's shilling for Glenn Beck can also be seen by the 912 project signs that people were carrying at the protest. There were also Nirth Cert nuts there too. I know you don't care but that's the reality of the situation.

610 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:34:51pm

re: #599 SanFranciscoZionist

Actually, I think most Catholics did exactly that. And most of the protestors, I'm gonna bet, behaved nicely.

A few crazies, you always get a few crazies.

The respectful protesters are not news, just the few crazies. So what does America get to see?

611 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:35:07pm

re: #583 Charles

He had plenty of other chances... aka votes. ....
[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

612 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:35:18pm

re: #574 Steffan

I doubt it.

While the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," it also says, "He that smiteth a man, so that he dies, must surely die also."

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.

Your ignorance of Catholic social teaching is as profound as your literalist interpretation of the Bible is shallow.

613 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:35:32pm

OT
It appears that the Tamil Tigers, pioneers of suicide bombing and favorite non-Muslim pet of the media/NGO industry, have been wiped out in a stunning final offensive by the Sri Lankan military.
The Tigers are revered among leftists for their sophistication and resilience, symbol of the post-Vietnam dogma that there can be no military solution to an ethnic insurgency. Their campaign of terror has gone on for 26 bloody years, with more than 70,000 dead. Now, in a matter of days, the Sri Lankan army has overrun the last Tiger strongholds. Terrorist leaders have conceded defeat and, true to their depraved principles, have apparently committed mass suicide.
Much more posted in spinoff links.

614 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:35:55pm

re: #574 Steffan

I doubt it.

While the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill," it also says, "He that smiteth a man, so that he dies, must surely die also."

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.

That's not the teaching of the Catholic Church. They're not evangelical Christians, they don't interpret directly from the text.

Also, as I mentioned way above, the Vatican firmly opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Personally, I think it's always nice if you can get the president to speak at your commencement. But anyone objecting to Obama on the grounds that his stance on abortion is against Church teaching has to recogize that Bush was/is just as far out of their ballpark.

615 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:36:04pm

...And of the 60 or so comments over at Malkin's place absolutely nobody is troubled by the guy with the 9-11 Truth sign.

616 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:36:12pm

re: #605 Cato the Elder

Yes, they would still be ' honorary', because the honor is in granting them when the course work required for such degree was not done, but waived due to other accomplishments.

617 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:36:45pm

re: #579 brookly red

I guess I am just a cynic, but I just don't totally believe any politician making speeches, ever.

Nah, you're just being sensible.

618 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:36:48pm

re: #609 Killgore Trout

By the way, The organizer's shilling for Glenn Beck can also be seen by the 912 project signs that people were carrying at the protest. There were also Nirth Cert nuts there too. I know you don't care but that's the reality of the situation.

You just want to rant so miss totally my dislike of the EFF.

Fine, rant away.

619 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:37:01pm

re: #613 Shiplord Kirel

OT
It appears that the Tamil Tigers, pioneers of suicide bombing and favorite non-Muslim pet of the media/NGO industry, have been wiped out in a stunning final offensive by the Sri Lankan military.
The Tigers are revered among leftists for their sophistication and resilience, symbol of the post-Vietnam dogma that there can be no military solution to an ethnic insurgency. Their campaign of terror has gone on for 26 bloody years, with more than 70,000 dead. Now, in a matter of days, the Sri Lankan army has overrun the last Tiger strongholds. Terrorist leaders have conceded defeat and, true to their depraved principles, have apparently committed mass suicide.
Much more posted in spinoff links.

The military leader is still on the loose. Name begins with a P.

620 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:37:34pm

re: #594 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen anyone make that argument yet. Most of the Tea Party supporters here just deny or dismiss the connections to nuts and extremists. I imagine there are quite a few who acknowledge it to themselves but continue to support the Tea Parties anyways. We saw a lot of people do that with Euronazis in the counterjihad movement. It's a choice that a lot of people made.

Our local "tea party" group has a member of the "Constitution Party" (or something) firmly entrenched in the organizing of local events.

I do believe I will pass on the next one. My little group and I will have no effect.

621 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:37:40pm

re: #614 SanFranciscoZionist

There is a difference in Old Testament and New Testament definitions for killing v murder. ' Thou Shalt Not Kill' means literally, thou shall not take innocent life, not that the taking of any life is never to be condoned.

622 NelsFree  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:37:52pm

re: #535 MacDuff

Personally, I'm determined to give Obama more respect than the Left ever gave Bush - to do less disrespects the office . ODS is no different than BDS; it's just another form of derangement. He will rise, or fall on the merits of his policies and THAT is the proper field of battle, and THAT is where we can expect to win.

UPding! I have seen lots of opinions flying across the blog today. There seem to be (and this is my opinion) groups of posters who support each other with updings, downdings for others, and opinions, on both sides of this subject. I will defer to posting further on this thread. I would like to see some factual comments based on the content of his speech, rather than opposing sides squaring off and flinging mud. Charles, I respect your ability to moderate this thread. I gather there was ample justification to delete the posts that are gone. This is not the place for hate. I am not enough of a "deep thoughts" kind of guy to jump into the mud on this. One thing that has not been mentioned is prayer. I believe I will pray about this, and hope that those people so inclined will consider it, too. Those who are not so inclined, please respect those who do. Thank you.

623 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:37:56pm

re: #575 reine.de.tout

AFAIK it started as a legitimate protest, and the majority of the participants likely still consider it a legitimate protest.

The problem is that political opportunists of all sorts, including the Paulians, have taken the movement over and are running with it.

This is the reason why you will see, among other things, Troofer and Nirther signs at these events. And, of course, the MSM will concentrate on the fringers and ignore the legitimate protesters.

624 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:38:44pm

re: #593 capitalist piglet

How?

re: #593 capitalist piglet

How?

Towels work. In that nice soft baby terry...

625 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:39:07pm

re: #608 Soona'

Sorry. But the tea party I attended had nothing of which you speak. It was nothing but everyday people voicing their conservative values against a government that will not represent them. I didn't see nor hear screaming of any kind from any, as you say, "extremist factions". And, by the way, it is our right and duty to protest what many see as a corrupt and out-of-control government.

As I say? Huh?

626 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:39:37pm

re: #615 Killgore Trout

...And of the 60 or so comments over at Malkin's place absolutely nobody is troubled by the guy with the 9-11 Truth sign.

Well, there's your proof.

//

(Hey, Killgore - maybe they don't take him seriously enough to comment.)

627 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:40:04pm

re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sorry, but if people are going to cry for the children lost to abortion, I lose some respect when they then recoil at the thought that they pay taxes to take care of them. If this seems cold, I'm sanorry, but you cannot say that society has a vested interest in a woman bearing a child, but no interest in the feeding of same child.

Maybe it has more to do with, dare I say it, morality. One of the reasons we have this problem in the first place is the withering state of morality in this nation.

628 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:40:07pm

re: #595 Charles

Again -- the true situation is exactly opposite. It's the anti-abortion advocates who don't want the issue to be decided by individual states, because then a woman who wanted an abortion could simply travel to a state where it was legal.

The anti-abortion groups want federal laws, and even constitutional amendments, to outlaw abortion for everyone in every state.

And as far as gay marriage is concerned, all I want is full faith and credit.

629 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:40:23pm
630 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:40:31pm

re: #624 SanFranciscoZionist

Towels work. In that nice soft baby terry...


That's as good as any suggestion I've heard yet. ; )

631 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:40:35pm

re: #585 reine.de.tout

If you want to parse, fine. It was a decision, of course, derived from the appeal of legislation........

632 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:42:08pm

re: #623 Steffan

AFAIK it started as a legitimate protest, and the majority of the participants likely still consider it a legitimate protest.

The problem is that political opportunists of all sorts, including the Paulians, have taken the movement over and are running with it.

This is the reason why you will see, among other things, Troofer and Nirther signs at these events. And, of course, the MSM will concentrate on the fringers and ignore the legitimate protesters.

Lenin grabbed onto the coat tails of a revolt against Imperial Russia's incompetence in prosecuting WWI and rode it all the way to a Bolshevik takeover.

633 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:42:08pm

re: #631 tradewind

...Oh nevermind. Not going back that far.
the fact is, the reasoning behind the opinion is faulty, and the opinion led to bad law.

634 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:42:20pm

re: #630 capitalist piglet

That's as good as any suggestion I've heard yet. ; )

I'm being kicked off the computer. See you all later.

635 MacDuff  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:43:41pm

re: #614 SanFranciscoZionist

That's not the teaching of the Catholic Church. They're not evangelical Christians, they don't interpret directly from the text.

Also, as I mentioned way above, the Vatican firmly opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Personally, I think it's always nice if you can get the president to speak at your commencement. But anyone objecting to Obama on the grounds that his stance on abortion is against Church teaching has to recogize that Bush was/is just as far out of their ballpark.

Having atended 12 years of Catholic Schools, I can attest to the fact that Catholics don't interperet dirctly from the text of the Bible.

In fact, we read and studied the Bible very little, oddly enough.

As for the invasion of Iraq, well, the Vatican seems to be staffed with far too many deep thinkers, and far too few realists that don't seem to realize that pacifism in the face of evil is no virtue.

636 Kulhwch  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:43:47pm

Just a little OT: Nancy Pelosi backpedals on CIA claims ...

Pelosi issued a statement late Friday shifting her criticism to the Bush administration – hours after CIA Director Leon Panetta defended his agency against Pelosi’s charges.

“My criticism of the manner in which the Bush administration did not appropriately inform Congress is separate from my respect for those in the intelligence community who work to keep our country safe,” Pelosi said in a statement late Friday.

But she didn’t back off her central claim, that she wasn’t informed about the use of water-boarding against a key terror suspect in September 2002.

In fact, Democratic insiders said Friday that before Pelosi made her dramatic statement on Thursday, her office dispatched an aide to CIA headquarters to independently verify what she was told during the 2002 briefing based upon notes from the meeting.

“[Pelosi] wouldn’t say what she did without checking it first,” said a Pelosi ally.

Note how she follows the Obama practice of blaming it on Bush.  Is there going to be a time when he's not the universal kicking toy for those who can't justify their actions, etc.?  After all, look who they're still trying to get in front of a panel:

Pelosi is getting some backing in her own caucus. While Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) initially offered tepid support for Pelosi following her Thursday bombshell, Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) was much stronger in backing her the following day.

“I think Nancy Pelosi is a woman of great integrity, great intellect, and I do not believe that she would intentionally attempt to misled anybody,” Clyburn said during an appearance on MSNBC’s “Hardball.”

Clyburn cited statements by former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Bob Graham (D-Fla.), who also disputed that he was told the CIA was actually waterboarding detainees when he was briefed by the agency during the same period, as further proof of Pelosi’s statement.

The South Carolina Democrat suggested that Pelosi would “welcome” the opportunity to be questioned under oath about what she was told during the 2002 briefing, but added that former Vice President Dick Cheney and other Bush administration officials who knew the details of the detainee interrogation program should also face investigators.

“I think [Cheney] ought to talk about the role he played,” Clyburn said. As for Pelosi, he said, “I don’t think she has a single thing to hide, and I do believe she will welcome such an opportunity.”

Que surprize, neh?

}:)     (I think Cheney ought to invite her quail hunting.)

637 SlartyBartfast  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:44:10pm

re: #608 Soona'

Someone asked me, "What are the Tea Parties all about?" I replied, "What's in the news today? Every day is a new outrage!" Quoting Victor Davis Hanson:

...reordering of the bankruptcy statutes with Chrysler and the UAW; with the strong-arming of stimulus money for California predicated on the protection of unions; with the serial disdain for paying taxes on the part of Geithner, Solis, Daschle and others; and with the selective release of CIA memos, to denigrate those out of office as veritable torturers...

...ignoring the potentials of coal, nuclear, gas, and oil, intent instead on cap-and-trade, and pie in the sky present-day Gorish wind and solar.

The magnitude of borrowing is so staggering that there is almost no conceivable way that we can ever balance the budget without simply confiscating incomes in toto, or taxing our very sneezes.

Right now hostility to the U.S. garners attention and apology; loyalty and alliance win neglect and complacence: better to be an enemy than a friend of America.

He has chosen to demonize as greedy (cf. the Super bowl quips, the “speculators” jab, the “fair share” and “spread the wealth” slips, etc.) capitalists en masse.

Sadly, there's more (but I'm trying to get this in before this becomes a dead thread!).

638 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:45:18pm

re: #628 SanFranciscoZionist

And as far as gay marriage is concerned, all I want is full faith and credit.

Washington State legislators recently enacted a Civil Union law that is marriage in all but name, one of the best solutions I have ever seen.

The people had a say in the matter, not being told what they had to accept from a judge.

639 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:45:27pm

re: #25 BLBfootballs

More than just hosting him as the commencement speaker. Bestowing an honorary degree on him is the real point of outrage.

640 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:45:56pm

re: #633 tradewind

...Oh nevermind. Not going back that far.
the fact is, the reasoning behind the opinion is faulty, and the opinion led to bad law.

Look at the bright side.

The Roe Effect means that the lefties who support it aren't breeding.

641 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:46:03pm

re: #619 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The military leader is still on the loose. Name begins with a P.

They're claiming now to have found his carcass. We shall see.
Lanka army claims LTTE chief Prabhakaran dead
Check out the picture. Obviously someone driven to desperate acts by hunger and abject poverty./

642 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:46:14pm

re: #631 tradewind

If you want to parse, fine. It was a decision, of course, derived from the appeal of legislation........

So you are saying there was a US law passed the found one way or the other regarding abortion and Roe Wade ruled on it?

643 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:46:20pm

re: #636 Kulhwch

What an idiot she is. She ignored and burned behind her the bridge Leon Panetta built and presented to her to help her escape this mess...that she just didn't realize or hear what the briefing meant. Instead, she digs herself further and lies when the truth would have sounded more plausible.

644 LGoPs  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:46:57pm

re: #635 MacDuff

Having atended 12 years of Catholic Schools, I can attest to the fact that Catholics don't interperet dirctly from the text of the Bible.
In fact, we read and studied the Bible very little, oddly enough.

As for the invasion of Iraq, well, the Vatican seems to be staffed with far too many deep thinkers, and far too few realists that don't seem to realize that pacifism in the face of evil is no virtue.

I'll second that. 16 years of catholic eduction here and I rarely if ever had nuns or priests qoute the Bible. I respect the Boble and what it represents but am generally unschooled in its content, despite all that parochial education. And I certainly don't take it literally.

645 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:47:35pm

re: #640 Steffan

I'm not sure that's all good. Some of the breeders aren't exactly what the country needs in the way of political revitalization....and I am painting with a broad brush there.

646 LGoPs  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:48:06pm

re: #644 LGoPs

I'll second that. 16 years of catholic eduction here and I rarely if ever had nuns or priests qoute the Bible. I respect the Boble and what it represents but am generally unschooled in its content, despite all that parochial education. And I certainly don't take it literally.

Boble = Bible.
PIMF

647 Ontheleftcoast  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:48:10pm

I'm Jewish and don't have a dog in this fight, but as I understand it, the intelligent objection is not to the President delivering the address.
It's to Notre Dame giving him an honorary degree, which goes against a laboriously hammered out agreement among American Catholic bishops about Catholic institutions honoring people who go against Church teachings.

648 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:48:37pm

re: #642 kansas

No.
But you knew that.
Go pick another nit.

649 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:48:57pm

re: #643 tradewind

What an idiot she is. She ignored and burned behind her the bridge Leon Panetta built and presented to her to help her escape this mess...that she just didn't realize or hear what the briefing meant. Instead, she digs herself further and lies when the truth would have sounded more plausible.

The press will buy the Bush bash argument and she'll get out of it. So last night I tune in to SNL for some laughs, right, and Ferrel and Hammond are spoofing Bush and Cheney. Hey guys.......the fucking horse died.

650 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:49:33pm

re: #641 Shiplord Kirel

They're claiming now to have found his carcass. We shall see.
Lanka army claims LTTE chief Prabhakaran dead
Check out the picture. Obviously someone driven to desperate acts by hunger and abject poverty./


May be, could be, et cetera ... I'll wait and see, but I'm hopeful.

Prabhakaran was known to carry a cyanide capsule around his neck.

651 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:49:33pm

re: #625 debutaunt

As I say? Huh?

You seemed to agree with some of the posters here that because there are groups who don't espouse exactly what you believe, then the whole movement should be scrapped. So I ask you. What should we do instead that will have any kind of impact on national opinion?

652 formercorpsman  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:49:48pm

I agree with his statement, in the paragraph.

We should continue to debate this. I freely admit my position up front.

I was what someone would call pro-choice, (more like ambivalent, never really thought very hard about the issue beyond sound bites) but some personal life events forced me off the fence, to examine the actual facts of the subject.

There are certain aspects that just can't stand side by side with each other, they force one or the other to prevail.

Does anyone who takes the position of pro-choice see a problem with the amount of money certain groups are willing to spend on candidates derived from this industry?

The reason I say this, is that looking to work together for the reduction of unintended pregnancies would have a negative effect on those who earn their living in that field.

653 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:49:50pm

re: #640 Steffan

Look at the bright side.

The Roe Effect means that the lefties who support it aren't breeding.

It isn't they aren't breeding, just disconnecting the consequences. Having sex is not occurring less since Roe v. Wade.

654 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:49:53pm

re: #647 Ontheleftcoast

Huge sigh of yessssss.
That's what it is. Or at least, that's what started it.

655 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:50:09pm

re: #620 reine.de.tout

Our local "tea party" group has a member of the "Constitution Party" (or something) firmly entrenched in the organizing of local events.


It's a very odd situation. Paulians and extremist libertarians make up such a tiny percentage of the population but so much of the Tea Party organizers and sponsors are whackjobs. The sad reality is that they are in leadership positions because it's a Paulian movement that conservatives are joining, not the other way around. The Paulians have been doing these Tea Parties for years so the organizing infrastructure was already in place.

656 Sheepdogess  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:50:27pm

I find Catholics who say" the mores of the times have changed, and the Catholic should change with the times" foolish. I say to them, "find a new religion".

No matter how many times I read the U.S. Constitution, I still can't seem to find the the place where it states the right to end the life of an unborn child. I hate abortion, but I realize that it will always be legal in some states and I can live with that. I would live in a state where it is illegal. I believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned and the states should decide. It makes me wonder if future politicians SCOTUS's will read into the constitution that it is completely acceptable to dispose of those with whom they disagree?

Watching the standing ovation of Obama at Notre Dame chilled me like the law students who cheered when the OJ Simpson verdict was announced and he was acquitted of double murder.

I have no respect for this president. He seems to have forgotten that he is the employee of all the American people.

re: #579 brookly red

I guess I am just a cynic, but I just don't totally believe any politician making speeches, ever.

I Agree.

657 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:50:34pm

re: #649 kansas

They've got it on life support, so they can continue to beat it.

658 theheat  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:50:46pm

Just reading the text from the abortion portion of Obama's speech, I think it was well very well thought out and reasoned. For content, I'd give him an A. There's no way any speech that concerns abortion will ever placate people on opposite sides of the issue, and I don't care who's giving the speech.

And, no, I don't believe the majority of pro-choice people are anti-life by any stretch. I think most of them would prefer women choose life, but want those same pregnant women to have a legal right to exercise their choice. That's my position, as well. More than anything, I would like these women to make informed decisions, know what their options are, and have the resources they need available to them which ever they choose.

Obviously, the best choice is only planned pregnancies. Unfortunately, that has never been 100% attainable, nor will it be. It's just a fact.

659 kansas  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:51:01pm

re: #648 tradewind

No.
But you knew that.
Go pick another nit.

I did not know that. You said it was legislation. I simply asked.

660 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:51:48pm

re: #649 kansas

The press will buy the Bush bash argument and she'll get out of it. So last night I tune in to SNL for some laughs, right, and Ferrel and Hammond are spoofing Bush and Cheney. Hey guys.......the fucking horse died.

Hard to spoof and ridicule one's messiah.

Besides, the Bash Bush material is easy to recycle, why need to buy carbon credits to create new stuff.

661 pianobuff  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:53:33pm

re: #583 Charles

While I agree that this vote was not an affirmative vote to kill babies, it also looks like he voted against the amended version of the bill which had neutrality specifically added (the "de-stealthed" version). Am I missing something?

662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:54:09pm

re: #322 CapeCoddah

Are you still here?

663 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:54:11pm
664 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:54:47pm

re: #626 capitalist piglet

maybe they don't take him seriously enough to comment.


Silence is consent. I'm a very nonconfrontational person but when I was a Truther set up a booth in the airport I went over and talked to him. I told him I had friends and coworkers who might be interested so he gave me a bunch of CD's to pass out. I walked to the garbage can 10 feet away and stared him straight in the eye as I put them in and dumped my soda on top of them. I then went straight to the security office to tell them that they should have given him permission to be in the airport.
That's how you deal with Truthers.

665 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:56:00pm

re: #664 Killgore Trout

Gutsy! Nice.

666 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:56:33pm

re: #291 SixDegrees

I agree that there is no problem with having the president speak. Honoring him with an honorary degree is ...hmm.... not honorable. What is the point of having strong foundational beliefs if they are not going to be upheld?

667 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:57:17pm

re: #587 debutaunt

It's frustrating to have a good idea ruined by people whose motives are very suspect.

It's also frustrating to see a legitimate movement bashed by people whose motive are suspect.

668 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:57:24pm

re: #655 Killgore Trout

It's a very odd situation. Paulians and extremist libertarians make up such a tiny percentage of the population but so much of the Tea Party organizers and sponsors are whackjobs. The sad reality is that they are in leadership positions because it's a Paulian movement that conservatives are joining, not the other way around. The Paulians have been doing these Tea Parties for years so the organizing infrastructure was already in place.

Again. I saw no Paulian influence at the tea party I attended.

669 formercorpsman  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:57:36pm

re: #664 Killgore Trout

I know we probably don't agree on very much, but that was awesome.
I am sure anyone who lost their life on that day would thank you for that.

670 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:58:04pm

re: #635 MacDuff

Having atended 12 years of Catholic Schools, I can attest to the fact that Catholics don't interperet dirctly from the text of the Bible.

In fact, we read and studied the Bible very little, oddly enough.

As for the invasion of Iraq, well, the Vatican seems to be staffed with far too many deep thinkers, and far too few realists that don't seem to realize that pacifism in the face of evil is no virtue.

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the Catholic Church has actively opposed parishioners owning and reading the Bible from day one. They were very unhappy with Gutenburg and considerably less happy with King James.

671 BBev  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:58:19pm

re: #555 Jetpilot1101

I have to agree with you no that. I hear so any people protesting (so and so) but that goes both ways.

672 Wendya  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:58:38pm

re: #668 Soona'

Again. I saw no Paulian influence at the tea party I attended.

Ah, that's because you've been brainwashed.

//

673 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:58:46pm

re: #652 formercorpsman

You would hope they would be willing to make that sacrifice.
Kind of like cancer researchers, working to put themselves out of business.
Oh wait.....

674 LGoPs  Sun, May 17, 2009 1:59:22pm

re: #668 Soona'

Again. I saw no Paulian influence at the tea party I attended.

But they organized it, secretly....don't you see?
/

675 Kulhwch  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:00:37pm

re: #643 tradewind

What an idiot she is. She ignored and burned behind her the bridge Leon Panetta built and presented to her to help her escape this mess...that she just didn't realize or hear what the briefing meant. Instead, she digs herself further and lies when the truth would have sounded more plausible.

Agreed, aren't you glad she's an idiot, though?

Of course it could be that lying is the only means of defense she knows, so instinctively that's all she does.  I could see that in a not-very-bright moonbat case.

}:)     [If so, that knee-jerk reaction will have some serious whiplash with it ... ]

676 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:01:10pm

re: #672 Wendya

The Ron Paul movement in my area consists of some high school kids who love to spray paint telephone poles, and a few old hippies who wish they could still get high.
Lots of graffiti, not much gravitas.

677 Soona'  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:02:21pm

re: #672 Wendya

Ah, that's because you've been brainwashed.

//

No wonder I can't think of any dirty jokes anymore. :)

678 formercorpsman  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:02:49pm

re: #673 tradewind

It is a serious question. A valid one I think as well.

Often, we tend to overlook other aspects which certainly influence peoples motives, and as a person who is on the life side, I can admit we have some vile creatures who claim to be pro-life, but serve no purpose to actually debate the topic intelligently.

As well, there are people on the pro-choice side, just as rabid, who posses no ability to rationalize beyond their own ideological ox they must gore also.

679 bullskin  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:05:00pm

In Spain, socialists are planning to reform a Law which will allow free abortion up to the 14th week and the "right" of do it without parents consent to any teen from 16 years old.
I now there is no valid comparison but Mr. Hussein's agenda seems to follow things I've already seen in Spain.

680 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:05:16pm
681 Kulhwch  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:05:39pm

re: #664 Killgore Trout

Silence is consent. I'm a very nonconfrontational person but when I was saw a Truther set up a booth in the airport I went over and talked to him. I told him I had friends and coworkers who might be interested so he gave me a bunch of CD's to pass out. I walked to the garbage can 10 feet away and stared him straight in the eye as I put them in and dumped my soda on top of them. I then went straight to the security office to tell them that they should have given him permission to be in the airport.
That's how you deal with Truthers.

Fixed that for you.

}:)     [Awesome act, though!  Kudos to you.]

682 BBev  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:06:05pm

re: #668 Soona'

Again. I saw no Paulian influence at the tea party I attended.

Neither did I, what I saw where was just about all military or ex-military that want nothing more then America to stay free and strong.

683 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:06:36pm

re: #675 Kulhwch

Glad she's an idiot? I see your point in this case.... can't say I am sad to see her caught between the screaming moonbats of her district and the facts. Wish she weren't in the position in the first place.
I have a hard time imagining who elected Pelosi in the first place.... yuppie Grandma looks so out of touch with her constituents from the Castro....

684 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:06:45pm

Well, that was a rather bland and neutral way to address the issue.

If the anti-choice/anti-abortion side wants to contine to maintain credibility in the public eye, they need to find a way to reign in folk like Keyes & Terry. If not, at the very least, they need to put distance between the camps.

I only say this because as an activist myself, I know the tremendous damage that a few jerks can wreak on an otherwise peaceful crowd. The media, clueless as it is, tends to hone in on the bad craziness while ignoring the core message.

685 Steffan  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:06:57pm

re: #652 formercorpsman

I agree with his statement, in the paragraph.

We should continue to debate this. I freely admit my position up front.

I was what someone would call pro-choice, (more like ambivalent, never really thought very hard about the issue beyond sound bites) but some personal life events forced me off the fence, to examine the actual facts of the subject.

There are certain aspects that just can't stand side by side with each other, they force one or the other to prevail.

Does anyone who takes the position of pro-choice see a problem with the amount of money certain groups are willing to spend on candidates derived from this industry?

The reason I say this, is that looking to work together for the reduction of unintended pregnancies would have a negative effect on those who earn their living in that field.

I have issues with Planned Parenthood.

Its founder, Margaret Sanger, was an avowed racist who believed in eugenics. She was an avid student of Nazi eugenics, and the magazine she founded ran articles that were written by people who worked for Heinrich Himmler and Joseph Goebbels.

She also gave a rousing speech on the subject to a Klan rally. 1925, IIRC.

Most Planned Parenthood clinics are in inner cities.

Do the math.

686 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:08:35pm

re: #651 Soona'

You seemed to agree with some of the posters here that because there are groups who don't espouse exactly what you believe, then the whole movement should be scrapped. So I ask you. What should we do instead that will have any kind of impact on national opinion?

All I did was acknowlege that Killgore has done a lot of work showing what appears to be a huge downside to the tea parties. I agree with anyone who wants to vent frustration about political matters. It seems that the tea parties are being deliberately ruined so they won't have a positive impact. I didn't say anything should be scrapped, just that we have been given a heads-up that they are also being used for other purposes.

687 Lokotes  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:09:10pm

Not everyone cheered Obama.

Barack Obama is the most radical pro-abortion and infanticide president in history. One of his first actions as president was to lift a ban on funding foreign abortions.

Obama has voted four times in support of infanticide.

688 Velvet Elvis  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:09:43pm

re: #468 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so someone answer my question! Would it have been doctrinally inappropriate for a Catholic university to have George W. Bush as a commencement speaker?

Given his support for the death penalty as the governor of TX it could be argued that his presence would be just as inappropriate as Obama's.

689 Sabnen  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:11:22pm

Seeing as President Obama was born 'prematurely', only six months after his parents marriage, leads me to believe that he is aware that his being could have been terminated if abortion had been legal when he was conceived. So like him, and knowing my Mom the way I do, I'm glad abortion wasn't legal when I was conceived, otherwise, I wouldn't be here to post this lame comment!

690 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:12:10pm

re: #687 Lokotes

Not everyone cheered Obama.

Yep, there was one guy in a crowd of 3,000 who stood up and made an ass of himself by screaming like a moonbat.

And that statement -- that he voted four times "in favor of infanticide" -- is simply false. Unfortunately, a lot of so-called "pro-life" groups insist on distorting the truth to make their points.

691 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:12:36pm

re: #32 Steffan

Makes me wonder how many of the protesters are Nirthers.

There are times when I wish that the Nirthers and troofers would get a frickin' life.

This has nothing to do with Nirthers and troofers. One can protest on one deeply felt issue without being a conspiracy nut. The two things are NOT related.

692 Kulhwch  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:13:13pm

re: #683 tradewind

Glad she's an idiot? I see your point in this case.... can't say I am sad to see her caught between the screaming moonbats of her district and the facts. Wish she weren't in the position in the first place.
I have a hard time imagining who elected Pelosi in the first place.... yuppie Grandma looks so out of touch with her constituents from the Castro....

Always good to have a stupid opponent.

From my understanding, she is out of touch.  I work customer service on the telephone and I spoke sometime in the last year to a woman who knew her on a sort of casual basis because they attended the same church.  Pelosi, apparently, won't associate with hoi polloi, so she won't sit with the rest of the congregation in the church for mass, but insists on sitting in the balcony instead.

}:)     [Hearsay evidence, but I find it very believable.]

693 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:14:42pm

re: #468 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, so someone answer my question! Would it have been doctrinally inappropriate for a Catholic university to have George W. Bush as a commencement speaker?

YES.

The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty.

GWB supports the death penalty.

694 Pianobuff  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:15:18pm

re: #690 Charles

I read the link you posted. It looks like of the many versions of the bill that went for vote, there was only one "clean" version which apparently he voted against.

695 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:15:43pm

re: #397 Charles

Words. We all know that the president is great with words. How about deeds?

696 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:16:11pm

re: #670 Steffan

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the Catholic Church has actively opposed parishioners owning and reading the Bible from day one. They were very unhappy with Gutenburg and considerably less happy with King James.

Incorrect. We all had a Bible, as does my daughter, and today's students actually read and study it more than we did.

But we pretty much rely on the Church to intrepret it for us.

697 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:16:23pm

Ticket so far for Obama's speech: $13.9 million and counting in withheld donations to the University...
[Link: www.replacejenkins.com...]

698 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:17:09pm

re: #686 debutaunt

All I did was acknowlege that Killgore has done a lot of work showing what appears to be a huge downside to the tea parties. I agree with anyone who wants to vent frustration about political matters. It seems that the tea parties are being deliberately ruined so they won't have a positive impact. I didn't say anything should be scrapped, just that we have been given a heads-up that they are also being used for other purposes.

UPDING UPDING UPDING.

699 Kronocide  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:18:35pm

re: #687 Lokotes

That's some seriously loaded rhetoric.

700 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:18:58pm

re: #666 avspatti

I agree that there is no problem with having the president speak. Honoring him with an honorary degree is ...hmm.... not honorable. What is the point of having strong foundational beliefs if they are not going to be upheld?

Asked and answered a half-dozen times already. Search out my posts, above, if you want the details. Short answer: there's no problem with the degree; granting it actually elevates Notre Dame's standing as an institution of higher learning.

701 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:20:54pm

re: #692 Kulhwch

Judging by appearances, which admittedly can be misleading, but damn, she sure doesn't dress/coif/bejewel herself like an 8th districter from SFO. Maybe the Fab Five could draft her for an ep of QEFTSS.
Just saying.
**Straight Speaker

702 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:21:10pm

re: #700 SixDegrees

Why? Why does giving an unearned, honorary degree elevate NDs standing?

703 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:21:50pm
704 moonstone  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:22:00pm

Many people on this thread are making the same mistake that the media talking heads are making -- that the Catholic church's tenets and beliefs are subject to poll results.

In 2004, the American bishops issued a directive stating that Catholic institutions should not honor individuals whose beliefs are at odds with Catholic doctrine. Obama's invitation to speak may not have conflicted with that, but the honorary doctorate was outright defiance.

Having said that, what surprises me about the whole thing is that so many people are surprised that Notre Dame has acted contradictory to Catholic teachings. They've been doing that for the past 30 years or so. My personal wish is that the Vatican would "de-certify" (or whatever) Notre Dame as a Catholic school so that clueless Catholic parents would stop sending their unsuspecting children there to get a more or less anti-Catholic education.

705 debutaunt  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:22:47pm

re: #698 reine.de.tout

UPDING UPDING UPDING.

Whew! Thanks Reine.

706 chukardog  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:24:26pm

Pretty hollow words from a man that not only thought partial birth abortion was ok, but voted 3 times to allow doctors to kill babies accidentally born during the barbaric procedure. That my esteemed friends is murder, no matter how you slice it. The man is SCUM. Please tell me how someone can rationalize throwing babies in a custodian's closet to die of starvation and neglect like so much trash.

707 mcrognale  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:25:22pm

And he means exactly none of them. He is a liar, period. He has no intention of letting anyone have a choice, except the baby killers. There will be no conscience clause because that is not the socialist way of things. A socialist does not permit anyone to opt out lest the system collapse.
Mike

708 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:28:16pm

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

But Walter, not everything is open to discussion and then change according to the prevailing view. There are absolutes, and while it is certainly ok to discuss them, there are certain bedrock doctrines which cannot be compromised. Otherwise, why even have them?

709 pewboy  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:28:55pm
Open hearts. Open minds. Fair-minded words.

I believe someone forgot a "/sarc" tag

710 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:30:13pm

re: #656 Sheepdogess

I find Catholics who say" the mores of the times have changed, and the Catholic should change with the times" foolish. I say to them, "find a new religion".

The Catholic Church itself encourages internal and external debate on such issues. It recently sponsored - not simply attended - a conference on evolution, with the express purpose of examining what this scientific theory may illuminate about God's creation. The Catholic Church actively examines new discoveries in all fields and both holds them up to scrutiny against it's existing interpretation of theology, and also holds it's existing interpretation of theology up against the evidence thus gleaned from the physical world. If you don't like the idea of a Church that changes it's positions over time, the Catholic Church is definitely not for you.

No matter how many times I read the U.S. Constitution, I still can't seem to find the the place where it states the right to end the life of an unborn child.

It's implicit in that pesky ol' Bill of Rights, where the Constitution states, to put it in more colloquial, understandable terms, "Congress shall stay the fuck out of citizen's business" to the greatest degree possible. It sits right at the core of the Constitution, and it also sits at the core of Conservatism. I can make my own damn decisions without the Government's help or interference.

711 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:30:36pm

re: #702 pingjockey

Why? Why does giving an unearned, honorary degree elevate NDs standing?

I've answered this a half-dozen times already, above.

712 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:31:41pm

re: #612 Cato the Elder

Your ignorance of Catholic social teaching is as profound as your literalist interpretation of the Bible is shallow.

In the Bible, 'thou shalt not kill' actually means 'thou shalt not murder.' Most people down through the ages have had that written on their consciences imo.

713 Hawk  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:31:46pm

One little factoid about the arrests made there is not getting its rounds:
===================================================
The plaintiff who put the "Roe" in Roe v. Wade was arrested today at Notre Dame while protesting President Obama's commencement address.

Norma McCorvey, who had a change of heart and became a pro-life activist after originally suing for her right to have an abortion, was arrested with about 20 other protesters when she refused to leave the campus.
===================================================


@Killgore Trout:"It's another sad turn that the right no longer respects the Presidency."
Its just funny seeing that in print. When does the LEFT EVER respect the Presidency when a republican is in office?

@quiet man:"I do not believe that those who voted for Obama had any idea about who they were voting for."

I don't think they CARED to know.

714 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:33:21pm

re: #711 SixDegrees
Oh okay. Never mind.

715 seagreenroom  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:34:42pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Michelle Malkin proudly links to today's Tea Party in California.
click on the "EVEN MORE PICS!" link and see pic #11. There are also signs supporting Ron Paul's legislation to audit the Fed. They've become Paulians.

I hope you're not suggesting American taxpayers don't have a right to revolt?

716 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:38:30pm

re: #710 SixDegrees

Implicit?
It doesn't say ' We hold these truths to be implied... interpret as you wish'.
No where is the word ' privacy ' included, and it was a pretty well developed concept by the time the document was drafted. ' Secure in their persons from unreasonable searches and seizures'?.... pretty ironic, considering that many states consider the murder of a pregnant woman and her unborn child to be two murders.
I would submit that most unborn children, or fetuses, if you wish, would consider late abortion to be a pretty freaking unreasonable seizure.

717 BBev  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:43:06pm

re: #715 seagreenroom

I hope you're not suggesting American taxpayers don't have a right to revolt?

At this point I think the fed should be audited.

718 Sabnen  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:43:40pm

re: #710 SixDegrees

The way you say it it sounds like it's okay to kill my neighbor because . . . I can make my own damn decisions without the Government's help or interference.

719 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:45:01pm

re: #716 tradewind

Implicit?
It doesn't say ' We hold these truths to be implied... interpret as you wish'.
No where is the word ' privacy ' included, and it was a pretty well developed concept by the time the document was drafted. ' Secure in their persons from unreasonable searches and seizures'?.... pretty ironic, considering that many states consider the murder of a pregnant woman and her unborn child to be two murders.
I would submit that most unborn children, or fetuses, if you wish, would consider late abortion to be a pretty freaking unreasonable seizure.

Anytime you want to remove your blinders and start looking beyond single words as points of criticism, stripped of context, let me know.

And you better stop brushing your teeth if you believe your last sentence carries any weight. Every single time you do so, you flush hundreds of thousands of potential human beings down the drain. You do the same every time you swallow. The epithelial lining in your mouth constantly sheds viable cells that each are fully capable of becoming a full-fledged person. God has designed you to commit genocide during every moment of your existence.

I'm here. The kid's not. I'm more important. Take your wannabee religious tyranny and shove it as far up your ass as possible.

720 shiek al beif salami  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:45:03pm

I wish I wasn't so late to this discussion, because it is an important one for me. Obama mentioned that people of good will are on both sides of the abortion debate, and certainly there are, but regardless of whether abortion is moral or immoral, it was settled by judicial fiat. We the citizens didn't have a vote one way or the other. I suspect that if the issue had come to a vote, common sense and good will would have let us with abortion legislation that avoids the extreme stances we now have.

Alas, by-passing the democratic process continues to fragment this country and at some point, something will have to give politically. Too much pressure is building up around some social issues and the democratic process for relieving the pressure is working.

721 SixDegrees  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:45:27pm

re: #718 Sabnen

The way you say it it sounds like it's okay to kill my neighbor because . . . I can make my own damn decisions without the Government's help or interference.

Your neighbor's not incipient.

722 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:47:27pm
723 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:48:15pm

re: #719 SixDegrees

Ummm....no. Those cells cannot become a person, unless you want to clone yourself.

724 Teh Flowah  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:49:42pm

re: #15 Charles

The person taking the anti-abortion side on CNN just said that if it had been Rudy Giuliani or Arnold Schwarzenegger giving the speech, the angry reaction would have been exactly the same.

I do not believe that for one second.

Ehhh. It might have been. The vocal opposition at the speech would be, in my opinion, equally vocal against what they would perceive as a "RINO!" That's what fanatics do. They go crazy :v

725 pewboy  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:52:46pm

re: #719 SixDegrees

I'm here. The kid's not. I'm more important.


In your mind it's all about you.
That clears up the whole matter for me.
Thanks.
/sarc (as much as I can )

726 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:53:04pm

re: #670 Steffan

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the Catholic Church has actively opposed parishioners owning and reading the Bible from day one. They were very unhappy with Gutenburg and considerably less happy with King James.

When I was growing up, that was definitely the case. Now, there are Catholic Bible studies etc. BTW, I am not Catholic but am remembering what my Catholic friends told/tell me.

727 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:58:52pm

re: #121 redc1c4

my neighbor voted for him because he was black.

My neighbor voted against him because he was black.

You gotta love democracy.

728 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:59:33pm

Anyone know how may babies have been aborted in the US since abortion became legal?

729 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 2:59:57pm

re: #700 SixDegrees

Asked and answered a half-dozen times already. Search out my posts, above, if you want the details. Short answer: there's no problem with the degree; granting it actually elevates Notre Dame's standing as an institution of higher learning.

Depends on to whom they grant those degrees.

730 Sabnen  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:00:12pm

re: #721 SixDegrees
incipient - once the ball gets rolling it gets rolling, that divine evolutionary spark of life

731 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:01:12pm

re: #728 justdanny

The only numbers I've heard I don't believe. In the millions.

732 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:03:01pm

re: #731 pingjockey I read 60 million somewhere a while back. I'm looking for an unbiased online resource to get info. Good luck to me, right?

733 American Sabra  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:03:02pm

re: #685 Steffan

I file that under "when good causes happen to bad people."

Abortion is only one issue supported by Planned Parenthood. They also spend a lot of time and money teaching teens about birth control which includes abstinence, btw, as well as protection against sexually transmitted diseases and absolutely in the inner cities where they don't otherwise get the education.

SFZionist made the point upthread, but if conservatives say no to contraceptives, no to abortion, no to supporting welfare babies, what choices would you give a woman? Orphanges? Foster homes? Of 510,000 children in foster care in 2006, 289,000 were placed as follows:

53 percent were reunited with parent(s) or primary caregiver(s)
17 percent were adopted
16 percent went to live with a relative or guardian
9 percent were emancipated
4 percent had other outcomes

[Link: www.childwelfare.gov...]

This isn't a bad thing at all and it's actually an improvement over past years, but it still leaves 221,000 unplaced kids.

It's confusing to me. You don't want to care for the babies, you don't want to keep the babies from having babies, what do you want?

734 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:04:38pm

re: #732 justdanny
Yeah. This is one of those issues where finding unbiased info is daunting.

735 Leatherhelmet  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:05:12pm

Obama's speech is laughable.

It is the same pattern of rhetoric he uses in the energy debate. When someone says we should use nuclear power, Obama says, yes he agrees we should! But of course, he doesn't because of the waste issue. Then he uses his socialist rhetoric to solve all problems.

Now we can have less abortions by installing socialized medicine and economic policies which help the poor and pay for babies to be raised.

Then we had in some kind of bizarre conscience policy which of course Obama has worked tirelessly to throw out every single policy in this area that Bush put in. He has worked endlessly to force every hospital and doctor and pharmacist to perform abortion procedures and sell the morning after pill.

Where has there ever been an Obama plan for increasing the number of adoptions?

I don't believe for a second this leapord will change his stripes for one speech.

736 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:06:11pm

re: #733 American Sabra
I have never understood the uproar over contrception. People are gonna do what people do.

737 Sabnen  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:09:54pm

I'm still glad abortion wasn't legal when I was conceived, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

738 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:11:47pm

re: #737 Sabnen

I'm still glad abortion wasn't legal when I was conceived, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Abortion was legal when you were conceived, just probably not in the state you were conceived in.

739 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:14:21pm

It appears that the CDC keeps stats for all states except California, Louisiana, and New Hampshire. Nearly a quarter of all abortions in the US are in California.

Looking at the info at the CDC, it appears that 60 million might not be so far fetched. A number equalling close to one fifth of the current US population. Wow.

740 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:14:35pm

Notre Dame Alumni can join the Institute for Church Life.

"A Catholic University 's mission is to witness to the values of the Gospel in the way appropriate for universities to do so, in the medium of academic excellence. The Institute's outreach function takes the academic excellence and prestige of the University and turns it into a witness bearing leadership role in the life of the Church at large."

741 Sabnen  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:16:00pm

re: #738 Slumbering Behemoth

Where was it legal 50 years ago?

742 moonstone  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:18:26pm

re: #736 pingjockey

That's misleading, at best. There is a HUGE demand for infants among people who wish to adopt. The foster children you describe are almost exclusively children who are older, and/or have physical or emotional problems.

As unfair as it seems, many people who can't have children want an infant, not a child with problems. Americans are going to other countries to adopt infants, and many others are remaining childless.

The thing that's frightening is the fate of those children who would have been aborted but instead are kept and resented by possibly abusive parents. That opens up the old argument (to which I don't have the answer) of whether it's best to prevent a child from abuse by killing it before it's born.

743 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:20:58pm

re: #742 moonstone
Ummm I was talking about contraception, not foster kids.
That said you do have a point. About the foster kids and adoption.

744 enoughalready  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:25:20pm

Charles,

got to hand it to you. You have a backbone the size of a redwood tree. I may not agree with you on every single subject but you have my respect and admiration, and that is something I don't throw around lightly.

745 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:26:01pm

re: #741 Sabnen

The Supreme Court did not "invent" legal abortion, much less abortion itself, when it handed down its historic Roe v. Wade decision in 1973. Abortion, both legal and illegal, had long been part of life in America. Indeed, the legal status of abortion has passed through several distinct phases in American history. Generally permitted at the nation's founding and for several decades thereafter, the procedure was made illegal under most circumstances in most states beginning in the mid-1800s. In the 1960s, states began reforming their strict antiabortion laws, so that when the Supreme Court made abortion legal nationwide, legal abortions were already available in 17 states under a range of circumstances beyond those necessary to save a woman's life.

More at the link if you're interested. I am sorry that it does not address your question specifically, but to say that abortion was completely illegal every where in the U.S. prior to Roe v. Wade is incorrect.

746 moonstone  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:27:07pm

re: #743 pingjockey

Sorry, I meant to reply to American Sabra at #736 and her question about foster children.

747 Sabnen  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:30:46pm

re: #745 Slumbering Behemoth

Thanks, I am interested . . . as usual getting good information from the Lizard Nation!

748 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:30:53pm

re: #746 moonstone

S'alright. This is a very heavy topic.

749 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:33:17pm

According to info at the CDC there have been well over 60,000,000 abortions in the US since 1970.

Look, I feel like since I don't have a vagina, I really don't have a right to tell any woman what to do with her body, BUT! over sixty million abortions!

The more I know, the more I lose hope. And as far as Im concerned, hope is the most important thing there is.

750 American Sabra  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:33:26pm

re: #742 moonstone

I thought so :) From the Gov link I posted above, here are the age statistics.

Point in Time. The median age of the children in foster care on September 30, 2006, was 10.2 years.7

Entries. The median age of children entering foster care during FY 2006 was 7.5 years.

Exits. The median age of children exiting foster care during FY 2006 was 9.5 years.

Trends. The median age at entry and exit decreased between FY 2000 and FY 2006. The largest decrease was among the entries (from 8.8 to 7.5 years of age). There was a slightly smaller decrease among the exits (from 10.2 to 9.5 years of age). (See Exhibit 5.)

So clearly, adopting/fostering from a foster environment means you're going to get an older child.

From the same page, they have an adoption link. I found a PDF that stated that 46% of kids are adopted privately, 30% publically (I'm assuming that means from a group home of some sort) and 15% internationally. I couldn't find anything that spoke of age. Maybe you could find it. The foster page did indicate 10% of children were institutionalized, I'm imagining for behavorial or mental issues, but that amount seems small.

751 American Sabra  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:35:44pm

re: #749 justdanny

Somehow it seems to me that if men had babies, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

752 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:38:16pm

re: #749 justdanny

It would be interesting to learn how many abortions took place during the many decades after the U.S. was founded, as it was legal then as well.

753 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:38:53pm

re: #18 quiet man

The "religious" right, you mean. Myself, I have full respect for the office..that is why I voted for some one qualified and serious enough to be in it.

Those who have no respect for the office will simply vote for anyone based on something besides qualification and seriousness.

Sounds like you only respect the office when your vote wins. Not what the constitution intended, I think.

754 zeebeach  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:39:52pm

re: #595 Charles

Again -- the true situation is exactly opposite. It's the anti-abortion advocates who don't want the issue to be decided by individual states, because then a woman who wanted an abortion could simply travel to a state where it was legal.

The anti-abortion groups want federal laws, and even constitutional amendments, to outlaw abortion for everyone in every state.

I'm pro-life. I want the issue to be decided by the states because that's in keeping with the constitution. I'd love it if all states outlawed abortion, but I certainly accept that is unlikely to happen. Thanks for attempting to speak for all of us, though.

755 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:41:41pm

re: #737 Sabnen

I'm still glad abortion wasn't legal when I was conceived, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

If it wasn't legal, and you had been aborted the chances are good that your mother wouldn't be here either.

756 AFVetWife  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:44:54pm

re: #735 Leatherhelmet
I agree with you completely. All Christians, of whatever stripe, must stand against The One and his policies. I refused to watch his speech today, although I'm sure I'll see most of it on the news tomorrow. I was one of the signers of the petition protesting his speech at ND today. The only thing I would allow was the speech, as the sitting POTUS. I was very strongly against them giving him an honorary degree.
In general, and perhaps off topic, I believe we must defeat radical Islam. We must also defeat all efforts to remove God from our American world. We are asking for Divine retribution!

757 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:44:56pm
758 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:46:41pm

re: #751 American Sabra

Somehow it seems to me that if men had babies, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If men had to have the babies, humankind would have ended long long ago.

re, 752 Slumbering Behemoth

One hundred million easy.

More from the CDC and one other source, the Guttmacher Institute

At least 80% of all abortions are performed on unmarried women (CDC).

The abortion ratio for unmarried women is 510 abortions for every 1,000 live births. For married women it is 61 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).

Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 33% of all abortions (CDC).

50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).

Adolescents under 15 years obtained less than 1% of all abortions, but have the highest abortion ratio, 773 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).

47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI).

Black women are more than 4.8 times more likely than non-Hispanic white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.7 times as likely (AGI).

43% of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% identify themselves as Catholic (AGI).

759 Born Again Republican  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:51:08pm

Just this month, Congress quietly passed $50 million in funding for UNFPA, the United Nations Family Planning Fund. The bill includes language that voids Kemp-Kasten, which for 23 years has stood to prevent U.S. dollars from funding coercive family planning.

Another heart wrenching decision?

760 American Sabra  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:51:55pm

re: #758 justdanny

If men had to have the babies, humankind would have ended long long ago.

LOL Ok, so why the rest of your post?

761 Maui Girl  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:52:21pm

re: #164 FurryOldGuyJeans

Looks like Tim Geitner.

762 moonstone  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:52:44pm

re: #751 American Sabra

Have you heard the old saying, "If men had the babies, abortion would be a sacrament"?

When I first heard it, I thought it was rather nasty, but I'm becoming more and more convinced of the truth of it!

763 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:54:44pm

re: #3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Would you stand for Che had he been elected? Stalin? PeeWee Herman?

Obama is a fool.

The office of the presidency is absolutely important. And for that reason I wish Obama no ill will. But as our president, I honor him no more than I would any other mouthy fool.

764 AFVetWife  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:54:59pm

re: #30 SlartyBartfast

Oh yes! Let's talk about his extreme narcissistic personality disorder. AND, his upbringing with Frank Marshal Davis, his association with William Ayers, his years of listening to Rev. Wright, and on it goes. Let's face it, the man is a puppet, an empty suit, swayed by George Soros and his ilk. We must belong to the Conservative Underground, and work actively at every level to defeat this man's agenda!

765 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:56:37pm

re: #760 American Sabra
I'm just examining the available facts. Again, I do not have a vagina so I refuse to speak to what women should or shouldnt do with their bodies.

766 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 3:59:11pm

re: #722 buzzsawmonkey

There is an explicit right to freedom from searches and seizures (unreasonable ones) in the home, thus the need for warrants. This has nothing to do with whether or not abortion is a protected activity. And while the Declaration of Independence is of course separate from the Articles of Confederation/Constitution/Bill of Rights , they flow from one another and are all used selectively when arguing constitutional matters.

767 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:01:39pm

re: #765 justdanny


It's only a matter of time and science until men can easily carry and ' give birth' to offspring... we'll see what happens then.
Shudder.

768 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:02:40pm

re: #759 Born Again Republican

Just this month, Congress quietly passed $50 million in funding for UNFPA, the United Nations Family Planning Fund. The bill includes language that voids Kemp-Kasten, which for 23 years has stood to prevent U.S. dollars from funding coercive family planning.

Another heart wrenching decision?

Actually, whatever the wording was intended to do, it has been used largely to prevent funding all family planning on the pretext that it could be coercive or that it could lead to abortion.

769 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:05:26pm

re: #764 AFVetWife

We must belong to the Conservative Underground, and work actively at every level to defeat this man's agenda!

We are asking for Divine retribution!

You don't seem aware of what you sound like.

770 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:05:34pm

re: #119 Charles

Another lovely image from the California tea party:

[Link: cdn.ccomrcdn.com...]

Interesting. I recall a whirlwind of moral outrage from right leaning blogs over this, but I am not seeing much about the pic you linked. I guess consistency is simply not that important to some.

771 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:05:48pm
772 JPL17  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:07:09pm

re: #525 Cato the Elder

The Catholic Church is unequivocal in its condemnation of the death penalty, whatever that priest may think.

You are wrong. Allow me to quote paragraph 2266 of the current Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Preserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty.

In contrast, here's what the Catechism has to say about abortion, in paragraph 2271:

Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.

I'd say the Church's moral disapproval of abortion is a lot more "unequivocal" than its disapproval of the death penalty. Your attempt to equate a Catholic university's invitation to a death-penalty supporter with an invitation to a radical abortion-rights supporter is therefore nonsense. It's a false analogy.

773 nyc redneck  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:07:24pm

re: #397 Charles

Sorry, but to me, that definitely does not sound like a person who is "anti-life."

he is saying these words now, in this setting, which seem to be a bit more than disingenuous considering his strong stand against the 'infant born alive protection act."
that is a bit of a problem.
his voting history on abortion.

774 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:08:50pm
775 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:09:45pm

re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sorry, but if people are going to cry for the children lost to abortion, I lose some respect when they then recoil at the thought that they pay taxes to take care of them. If this seems cold, I'm sorry, but you cannot say that society has a vested interest in a woman bearing a child, but no interest in the feeding of same child.

Very well said. The sheer hypocrisy on this aspect is blindingly intense.

776 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:09:51pm

re: #757 buzzsawmonkey

I note that the link you provide does not mention that Mississippi (according to Wikipedia, at any rate) had reformed its abortion law in 1966 to permit abortion in cases of rape. No cite at the Wiki article, but if true it is one more "pink state" that should be cited in the chart in the article to which you linked.

Well I don't know everything about the history of abortion, I simply am not all that invested in the topic. But I do know that abortion wasn't illegal across the board prior to Roe v. Wade.

777 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:12:06pm
778 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:13:42pm

re: #567 Opilio

Why multiple tits, but only a single tat?

/

Because tits are vastly more popular than tats?

779 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:13:46pm

re: #774 buzzsawmonkey

The Declaration of Independence is never cited as a Constitutional authority, except by ignoramuses who know nothing about Constitutional law. Neither are the Articles of Confederation. They have no legal standing whatsoever.

Upding!

780 SecondComing  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:14:04pm

re: #57 Walter L. Newton

Wo took over Charles' avatar? There's some red neck in that picture instead of the cool Lizard king./

It's just a 'jazz musician'

/Beck

781 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:14:20pm

re: #741 Sabnen

Where was it legal 50 years ago?

New York, for one. That's where girls in PA used to go when I was in high school rather than brave the back alleys.

782 Jim D  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:14:22pm

re: #756 AFVetWife

Like 9-11 and Katrina? You one of those wackos?

783 Born Again Republican  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:14:42pm

re: #768 Naso Tang

Actually, whatever the wording was intended to do, it has been used largely to prevent funding all family planning on the pretext that it could be coercive or that it could lead to abortion.

According to the article The United States cut off funding UNFPA in 2001 because an investigation, headed by then Secretary of State Colin Powell, found that UNFPA was complicit with the Chinese Family Planning officials in coercive implementation of China’s One-Child Policy.

784 redc1c4  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:17:35pm

"Open minds. Fair-minded words."

coming from Ear Leader, this makes my irony meter explode.......

he's the epitome of dishonesty.

785 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:18:05pm

re: #754 zeebeach

I'm pro-life. I want the issue to be decided by the states because that's in keeping with the constitution. I'd love it if all states outlawed abortion, but I certainly accept that is unlikely to happen. Thanks for attempting to speak for all of us, though.

Whether you like it or not, the currently extant view of the Supreme Court of the U.S. is that having the issue decided by the states VIOLATES the Constitution.

So Charles is simply stating the law of the land as it currently exists.

786 AFVetWife  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:18:15pm

re: #769 Naso Tang
Please clarify. What I believe I sound like is a true consevative. Please reply if you think otherwise.

787 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:18:32pm

For some reason, I think "Divine Retribution" went out with the Old Testament. Or maybe enemies of Israel may get smacked by God. Somehow though, the Islamists keep attacking Israel. So bringing up divine retribution is kind of a non starter.

788 American Sabra  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:21:34pm

re: #762 moonstone

Have you heard the old saying, "If men had the babies, abortion would be a sacrament"?

When I first heard it, I thought it was rather nasty, but I'm becoming more and more convinced of the truth of it!

LOL

Still on topic is the plight of little Rilya Wilson who was most likely murdered by her grandmother and/or sisters. At any rate, Florida's Department of Children and Families basically lost her in the system for 16 months. This case shined a light on some serious problems with DCF, both in lack of social workers and the overloaded cases of others. I don't know what, if anything has been changed. Rilya has never been found.

789 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:25:39pm

re: #608 Soona'

Sorry. But the tea party I attended had nothing of which you speak. It was nothing but everyday people voicing their conservative values against a government that will not represent them. I didn't see nor hear screaming of any kind from any, as you say, "extremist factions". And, by the way, it is our right and duty to protest what many see as a corrupt and out-of-control government.

I don't think anybody here has said that every tea party is the same, or that every one is malevolent. The fact that your local one was exemplary in no way cancels out the dangerous, deceptive tactics of an increasingly powerful and vocal fringe. We ignore that at our peril.

790 AFVetWife  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:25:43pm

re: #782 Jim D

Please do not think of me as a "wacko." I am merely a patriot, a Christian, a traditional American. I pray daily for the return of our country to traditional Judeo/Christian values. I support our military, I support Israel's existence as a sovereign nation, I support our Founders' vision for this nation and the Constitution. I hopefully believe that does not qualify me as a "wacko" in anyone's estimation.

791 pingjockey  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:27:06pm

BBL

792 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:27:45pm

re: #771 buzzsawmonkey

It is my understanding that babies are incubated in the uterus, not the vagina. Perhaps you have other information.

In any event, laws prohibiting abortion do not dictate what women should or shouldn't "do with their bodies"--if by that you are referring to having sex. They address what may or may not be done when women have already made a decision what to "do with their bodies."

I'm not arguing for or against abortion restrictions in pointing this out--merely observing that you are skipping over the initiating decision, or series of decisions.

Food is cooked in the kitchen, unless of course there is no door into the kitchen.

I suppose my position is more primitive than you read it. Laws or not, abortion or not, I have no right to tell women how to live their lives. In theory that would mean that I am ultimately for abortion rights because I refuse to stand against them. But I am not pro life or pro choice. I'm pro sense.

Forgive me my strange way of saying things. I dont get out much.

793 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:29:16pm

Well now, having uncharacteristically both listened to and praised an entire speech by our president ... I look forward with no small amount of dread and trepidation to his meeting tomorrow with the prime minister of Israel.

Only 31 percent of Israelis consider the views of American president Barack Obama's administration pro-Israel, according to a Smith Research poll released Sunday, on the eve of the meeting between Obama and Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu at the White House.

That many?

794 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:29:39pm

re: #790 AFVetWife
Very well said.

795 Lokotes  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:29:59pm

The passage LGF guotes in this post is nice, but as Allahpundit at Hot Air responds (in principal, not directly);

"...but I sympathize enough with true-believing pro-lifers to see how insulting the “agree to disagree” approach must be to the depth of their conviction. ...[some have] framed the enormity of abortion as similar to that of slavery; just as slavery had to be expunged nationally via constitutional amendment, so does abortion in his opinion. Once you’ve come to see it that way, how “open-minded” can you really be in disagreement? To borrow The One’s phrase, what “fair-minded words” would be regarded as fair in defense of slavery?"


Indeed!

796 tyree  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:32:26pm

President Obama said, "But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature."

That would be a very good idea.

797 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:35:00pm

re: #754 zeebeach

I'm pro-life. I want the issue to be decided by the states because that's in keeping with the constitution. I'd love it if all states outlawed abortion, but I certainly accept that is unlikely to happen. Thanks for attempting to speak for all of us, though.

And what you may want as an individual has nothing to do with what the anti-abortion groups want, which is what I outlined in my comment.

798 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:36:39pm

re: #635 MacDuff

Having atended 12 years of Catholic Schools, I can attest to the fact that Catholics don't interperet dirctly from the text of the Bible.

In fact, we read and studied the Bible very little, oddly enough.

As for the invasion of Iraq, well, the Vatican seems to be staffed with far too many deep thinkers, and far too few realists that don't seem to realize that pacifism in the face of evil is no virtue.

I would argue that there's nothing "realistic" about the teachings of Jesus. They were revolutionary, and were intended to overturn the then status quo of morality and legality that he described so vividly as a "whited sepulchre." And he paid the price for those teachings.

Human nature is realistic, and we suffer from it. Jesus was better than that. Or, so I was taught.

799 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:40:31pm

re: #795 Lokotes

What he said was that the debate can and should continue, that "at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable" and that [e]ach side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction.

Nowhere did he say we should "agree to disagree."

He suggested that both sides can do more to keep the debate civil. And he used the early and awkward stages of the civil rights movement as an example.

But nice straw man.

800 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:41:15pm
801 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:42:46pm

re: #795 Lokotes

The passage LGF guotes in this post is nice, but as Allahpundit at Hot Air responds (in principal, not directly);


Indeed!

Hurray for being close-minded!

/dripping

802 Born Again Republican  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:45:51pm

re: #795 Lokotes

The passage LGF guotes in this post is nice, but as Allahpundit at Hot Air responds (in principal, not directly);


Indeed!

It use to be abortion within 3 months now it has progress to beyond the womb (ending the life of a live birth baby). Further more we now are forced to pay for these abortions! Abroad right now but the health bill will include paying for abortions.

803 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:46:30pm

re: #790 AFVetWife

I support our Founders' vision for this nation and the Constitution.

And that is ...?

804 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:49:40pm

re: #800 buzzsawmonkey

It would take very little to turn your statement above into an argument against mandating child support payments. After all, who are we to tell people how to live their lives?

With much respect I have no desire to go round in circles on this stuff.

It would take very little to turn your statement...

Yes. And if frogs had wings....

805 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:52:00pm

re: #785 Lynn B.

Whether you like it or not, the currently extant view of the Supreme Court of the U.S. is that having the issue decided by the states VIOLATES the Constitution.

So Charles is simply stating the law of the land as it currently exists.

Exactly right. And that's another big reason why the anti-abortion groups are pushing for a constitutional amendment -- because it's probably the only way they'll ever get to rule women's lives the way they want.

806 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:52:11pm

re: #786 AFVetWife

Please clarify. What I believe I sound like is a true consevative. Please reply if you think otherwise.

You seem to think only Christians need apply. You seem to think you need to go "underground", when all you need to do is call Glenn Beck and I have to ask just what type of "divine" retribution you have in mind?

807 Gus  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:54:36pm

re: #795 Lokotes

Allahpundit is wrong. I listened to the speech and there's also a transcript available from Fox News and no where can I find him saying that people should "agree to disagree." He seemingly proposes to work with those that he disagrees with and comments to respect their opinions as well as including them in any decision making. His statement to "work together" to end abortion by a variety of methods which are based on realistic measures.

Remember that he is "only" the president and not Superman. Short of executive orders (which I doubt he would take in this matter) he is bound by the rule of law and any standing decision(s) made by the Supreme Court of the United States.

808 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 4:58:44pm

re: #805 Charles

There's the argument encapsulated: one side sees it as ruling womens' lives, and the other sees it as saving childrens'.
Not a lot of room for commonality.

809 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:00:40pm
810 Tamron  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:01:34pm

re: #40 Steffan

You hit the nail squarely on the head.
Our Narcissist-In-Chief really does think it's all about him.
If he was at a funeral, he'd want to be the corpse.

ROFL.... Would the teleprompters go INSIDE or OUTSIDE of the coffin?
.

811 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:02:52pm
812 capitalist piglet  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:02:55pm

re: #664 Killgore Trout

Silence is consent. I'm a very nonconfrontational person but when I was a Truther set up a booth in the airport I went over and talked to him. I told him I had friends and coworkers who might be interested so he gave me a bunch of CD's to pass out. I walked to the garbage can 10 feet away and stared him straight in the eye as I put them in and dumped my soda on top of them. I then went straight to the security office to tell them that they should have given him permission to be in the airport.
That's how you deal with Truthers.

Well, good for you. Maybe you ought to go to your local Tea Party and kick some ass. ; )

That said, I thought you were complaining that commenters on Michelle Malkin's website hadn't mentioned the guy, so I responded that maybe they just didn't take him seriously enough to bother. That isn't "consent", necessarily. It could very well be "Why bother?"

813 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:03:07pm

re: #808 tradewind I wish there was some way we could help people exist without ruling over women. But mainly, I just see that likely over sixty million people weren't allowed to exist (since 1970) and it hurts to think about that.

814 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:03:10pm

re: #421 Silvergirl

I took you up on it, partially. I ran the clip Charles provided in #397 with these results:

Female Score: 370
Male Score: 328

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female

Wow. I was right. I think Michelle and Jon Favreau wrote it.

815 Jim D  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:03:19pm

re: #790 AFVetWife

I think you are indeed a wacko if you anticipate divine retribution on this country because of Obama's presidency.

816 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:03:48pm

re: #783 Born Again Republican

Yes, I am aware of China in that regard, but I doubt that the US ever made any contributions to China for any reason. The policy was used to deny help to women everywhere else where it was needed most.

And as part of this topic, one cannot really discuss abortion isolated from the Catholic church's stand on birth control. In developing Catholic countries their opposition is responsible for more misery, poverty and unwanted children than abortion has ever been guilty of preventing from being born.

817 katemaclaren  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:05:56pm

re: #394 big steve

Get a copy of the text of the speech and run it through gender genie......I did this with some of Bushes speeches and they would turn up female in authorship.

I have never heard of the gender genii...this is fascinating info. Thanks!

818 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:08:01pm

I don't want to rule women's lives, not even one woman's life. But I have a problem with activists who state that a nine-month old fetus is not a human being unless the pregnant woman says so. That is not science. That is individual totalitarianism.

819 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:08:25pm

re: #763 justdanny

Would you stand for Che had he been elected? Stalin? PeeWee Herman?

Obama is a fool.

The office of the presidency is absolutely important. And for that reason I wish Obama no ill will. But as our president, I honor him no more than I would any other mouthy fool.

Are you familiar with the admonition "Love it or leave it"? Have you ever advised anyone unhappy with its elected officials to do so? Is "love it or leave it" a valid sentiment, do you think?

820 AFVetWife  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:09:54pm

re: #815 Jim D

Oh no - I don't anticipate any Divine retribution due to Obama's presidency - I anticipate it due to the movement away from God's law in many aspects of our daily life. I'm sorry if I was not clear.

821 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:10:45pm
822 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:11:52pm

re: #818 Timbre
I think life starts at fertilization. No matter what pro/choice/life foes think. As soon as cells start splitting a new life begins. A new struggle.

823 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:11:55pm
824 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:12:02pm

re: #781 Lynn B.

New York, for one. That's where girls in PA used to go when I was in high school rather than brave the back alleys.

That would have been before The Pill. Probably was much more common then.

825 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:14:16pm

re: #818 Timbre

I don't want to rule women's lives, not even one woman's life. But I have a problem with activists who state that a nine-month old fetus is not a human being unless the pregnant woman says so. That is not science. That is individual totalitarianism.

Clarify please. I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

826 AFVetWife  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:14:33pm

re: #822 justdanny

I agree with you completely!
It's getting late here in EDT, so I'll sign off for now. May you all be blessed and inspired! God bless America!

827 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:19:01pm

re: #819 ShanghaiEd

Are you familiar with the admonition "Love it or leave it"? Have you ever advised anyone unhappy with its elected officials to do so? Is "love it or leave it" a valid sentiment, do you think?

Yes and no, depending on the source of their (rhetorical) enthusiasm.
The pendulum swings for elected officials and cutlural memes. So if someone is unhappy with officials, if they are a righty like me, I tell them to hang tough and keep fighting. I they are a lefty moaning about a righty official I tell them, tough shit.

Love it or leave it is for foreign nationals, anarchists, socialists, communists and entertainment industry types.

:)

828 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:21:11pm

re: #820 AFVetWife

Oh no - I don't anticipate any Divine retribution due to Obama's presidency - I anticipate it due to the movement away from God's law in many aspects of our daily life. I'm sorry if I was not clear.

You mean hurricanes and the like, due to tolerance of homosexuality?/

829 Tamron  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:22:49pm

re: #773 nyc redneck

he is saying these words now, in this setting, which seem to be a bit more than disingenuous considering his strong stand against the 'infant born alive protection act."
that is a bit of a problem.
his voting history on abortion.


Here's a linky on that:
Obama caught on tape arguing against giving medical attention to aborted babies

"August 21, 2008

Obama opposed SB1663 arguing he had "confidence" that the abortionist - who was invested in attempting to kill the child pre-delivery - would not mind revealing his or her botch by calling a 2nd physician to ensure the child was given proper medical attention and revived if possible.

Obama thought it remarkable to suspect an abortionist of having a subjective medical opinion about his new second patient. It didn't occur to Obama that the abortionist might also be invested in seeing the baby dead to preclude malpractice lawsuits down the road if the baby were found not to have pre-birth diagnosed defects, an overriding reason for these late-term induced labor abortions.

But Obama's most telling statement from the clip was to say this bill "is really designed simply to burden the original decision of the woman and the physician to induce labor and perform an abortion."

In other words, if a baby were to survive his or her abortion, the death plan marked out for this child should be carried out nonetheless."


.

830 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:22:59pm

re: #825 Naso Tang

Clarify please. I doubt anyone would disagree with that.

It is my understanding that pro-choice activists are in favor of abortion-on-demand. It is their position that abortion should be legal up to, and possibly including, the moment of birth. It is their position, and that of the 1973 Supreme Court, that a fetus is not a person (read, human being). This political position is not based upon neurology or physiology. It is based upon the concept of individual rights. I maintain there are many who would argue that a nine-month old fetus is not a human being.

831 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:23:49pm

re: #824 Naso Tang

That would have been before The Pill. Probably was much more common then.

Uh, no. I'm not quite that old. LOL!

The pill was certainly around but it was pretty inaccessible for teenagers unless their parents helped and, well, that required a certain level of ... shall we say ... flexibility that few parents had. Other less reliable methods of birth control weren't that easy for minors to get either. And education about such things was solely lacking. As was much of a sense of responsibility and consequences of actions ... still true of many teenagers today, although perhaps not to quite such a degree.

832 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:24:36pm

sorely lacking ... PIMF

833 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:24:46pm

re: #830 Timbre

It is my understanding that pro-choice activists are in favor of abortion-on-demand. It is their position that abortion should be legal up to, and possibly including, the moment of birth. It is their position, and that of the 1973 Supreme Court, that a fetus is not a person (read, human being). This political position is not based upon neurology or physiology. It is based upon the concept of individual rights. I maintain there are many who would argue that a nine-month old fetus is not a human being.

There are very few people who are in favor of what you're describing.

VERY few.

834 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:25:28pm

re: #821 Iron Fist
Look here . Toward the bottom you'll find hard numbers. And if like me you tabulate the numbers and factor in the states that dont report statistics, you'll find that the number is indeed over sixty million. A quarter of all abortions take place in California. California is one of three states that dont report their figures to the CDC.

835 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:26:57pm

re: #820 AFVetWife

Oh no - I don't anticipate any Divine retribution due to Obama's presidency - I anticipate it due to the movement away from God's law in many aspects of our daily life. I'm sorry if I was not clear.

I'm beginning to smell the scent of a moby.

836 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:27:10pm

re: #828 Naso Tang

You mean hurricanes and the like, due to tolerance of homosexuality?/

I think she's signed off but it sure sounded to me like that's what she meant.

837 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:27:22pm

re: #833 Charles

Then why are the pro choice people so unwilling to allow ANY moderation in abortion law whatsoever?

838 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:27:25pm
839 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:30:35pm

re: #822 justdanny

I think life starts at fertilization. No matter what pro/choice/life foes think. As soon as cells start splitting a new life begins. A new struggle.

Of course it does, life as we define it for any organism, and one which has perhaps only a 50/50 chance of making it through 9 months naturally.

The point that you miss is that it is life, but it is still only a Potential human life, whereas the mother is a real one.

When I see the anti abortion demonstrators put as much energy into sex education and contraception availability and adoption guarantees, then I might join them in telling the remaining women who make bad choices (as opposed to rape) what they must do with their bodies and lives.

840 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:30:36pm

re: #830 Timbre

It is my understanding that pro-choice activists are in favor of abortion-on-demand. It is their position that abortion should be legal up to, and possibly including, the moment of birth. It is their position, and that of the 1973 Supreme Court, that a fetus is not a person (read, human being). This political position is not based upon neurology or physiology. It is based upon the concept of individual rights. I maintain there are many who would argue that a nine-month old fetus is not a human being.

Well, then your understanding is quite flawed.

It's clear that an awful lot of people who think Roe v. Wade was "wrongly decided" don't have the faintest idea what the decision said. Not speaking of everyone who disagrees with it but comments like this betray an abysmal ignorance of what "the 1973 Supreme Court" held.

841 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:30:53pm

Time for wine. And grilled ostrich.

842 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:31:20pm

re: #838 buzzsawmonkey
Good question. Go look for yourself. CDC.

843 fizzlogic  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:34:23pm

re: #833 Charles

If the baby is severely deformed I wouldn't want to force the family to have the baby--even late term.

844 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:38:42pm

re: #813 justdanny

I don't hold the first view, so we have no argument there.

845 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:39:27pm

re: #833 Charles

I don't know. What happens if we move the discussion back to 8 months? Or seven? My point is simply this: it is neither scientific nor logical to say that an individual has the right to decide whether or not a fetus is a human being. If there is no objective reality about fetal humanity, then I really don't know what else to say.

846 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:41:24pm

re: #830 Timbre

It is my understanding that pro-choice activists are in favor of abortion-on-demand. It is their position that abortion should be legal up to, and possibly including, the moment of birth.

Not my understanding. In fact I'm amazed at yours.

It is their position, and that of the 1973 Supreme Court, that a fetus is not a person (read, human being). This political position is not based upon neurology or physiology. It is based upon the concept of individual rights. I maintain there are many who would argue that a nine-month old fetus is not a human being.

A fetus is a human being fetus. It seems to me that a human being person is one able to live independently and able to be dealt with independently.

847 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:42:30pm

re: #841 Lynn B.

Time for wine. And grilled ostrich.

Have to ask where you buy that, or do you have your own?

848 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:42:45pm

re: #840 Lynn B.

OK, please answer one question for me since you understand Roe v. Wade. Did the Court hold that a fetus is a human being?

849 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:43:53pm

re: #839 Naso Tang

Well said. There is unruly fanaticism on both extremes. And when I consider all of the issues I can find myself torn and pushed from this side to that.

For example, I know for sure it was the "womens lib" movement that lead to the corrosion of the stable healthy family unit, yet I am unable to come down on the side of those opposed to women having all the same rights as men.

For over a million years humans adapted into these roles and it was likely these different roles for men and women that quaranteed that humans would survive and thrive. And I believe that almost every social ill this country packed with social ills suffers from comes from poor parenting and absent parents.

Womens lib, once it has cured and seasoned will spell the end of western culture. We are humans, not high ideals or well reasoned philosphies. We are animals and our big brains and all there ability to consider everything in such detail are going to wipe us off this planet.

(ok i'll shush now)

850 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:44:40pm
851 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:45:01pm

re: #815 Jim D

I think you are a wacko if you anticipate divine retribution.

FTFY.
Without the qualifiers.
It bugs me no end to see people predict God's plans, when He has stated clearly that no one can.

852 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:45:47pm

re: #811 Iron Fist

Could you provide chapter and verse (or even better a link) for that. I can't recall having ever seen that used in the Bible that I can recall, nor, more specifically, in the words of Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

No problem. It's Matthew 23:27, KJV: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

Link to other translations: [Link: bible.cc...]

853 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:47:25pm

re: #837 kiwiviv

Then why are the pro choice people so unwilling to allow ANY moderation in abortion law whatsoever?

Moderation? You must be kidding. What did you have in mind?

854 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:48:46pm

re: #846 Naso Tang

It seems to me that a human being person is one able to live independently and able to be dealt with independently.

So you are saying that infants are not "human being person[s]," because they are physically incapable of independent living, and also without Constitutional status?

855 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:49:58pm
856 tradewind  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:50:11pm

re: #846 Naso Tang

Then you'd better say that a human infant is not a person until the age of, oh, several years, because our offspring are not born able to get up and care for themselves in a few hours, a' la baby gazelles or zebras. They are certainly incapable of independent survival.
When Roe was written, viability before the third trimester was freakish and unrealistic... now it is not uncommon. Yet abortion is permitted without question up to the third trimester, and that is creepy.

857 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:50:20pm

re: #829 Tamron

Jill Stanek. Now there's a credible source.

For stoking outrage, that is.

858 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:51:13pm

re: #853 Naso Tang

Moderation? You must be kidding. What did you have in mind?

Well...at the very least I would hope that moderation included (on one side) the end to the massive, and mostly unnecessary, third-trimester abortions, and on the other, the end to the desire to kill those who perform third-trimester abortions.

859 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:51:20pm
860 experiencedtraveller  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:51:36pm

LGF has taught me many things.

Mostly it has taught me to value scientific rationalism.

To me it is obvious that life begins at conception and that this position can be defended via science.

Therefore we must respect life's due legal rights.

If we want to qualify life's legal rights basis its state of development than these qualifications should be codified in law.

This way I can see scientific rationalism and strict constructionism resolving the issue.

861 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:51:55pm

Stanek, by the way, was one of the people who tried to sneak through the Born Alive Infant Protection Act with provisions that would redefine the meaning of abortion, and increase liability for doctors and hospitals.

862 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 5:55:27pm

re: #827 justdanny

Yes and no, depending on the source of their (rhetorical) enthusiasm.
The pendulum swings for elected officials and cutlural memes. So if someone is unhappy with officials, if they are a righty like me, I tell them to hang tough and keep fighting. I they are a lefty moaning about a righty official I tell them, tough shit.

Love it or leave it is for foreign nationals, anarchists, socialists, communists and entertainment industry types.

:)

So, you're saying up front that your position is not consistent? In other words, it's Boo "them", yay "us"?

863 fizzlogic  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:01:43pm

re: #855 Iron Fist

I have a friend who did everything he and his wife could to save their baby. She managed to live a couple years. Bankruptcy, a failed marriage, and broken hearts is what they got. I'm sure they would never trade it all back if they could. But it was their decision. I sure as hell wouldn't want you or the government to make such a decision for me or others.

864 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:02:29pm

re: #848 Timbre

OK, please answer one question for me since you understand Roe v. Wade. Did the Court hold that a fetus is a human being?

I think you are confusing the right to abortion, at least in the first trimester, with legal rights as a person.

865 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:05:57pm

re: #864 Naso Tang

I think you are confusing the right to abortion, at least in the first trimester, with legal rights as a person.

How do you separate the two?

866 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:06:20pm

re: #815 Jim D

I think you are indeed a wacko if you anticipate divine retribution on this country because of Obama's presidency.

We're in Pat Robertson territory here.

867 American Sabra  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:07:20pm

re: #830 Timbre

This is a complete mischaracterization of the issue and the pro-choice movement, but is still repeated over and over by the pro-lifers.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

If you don't like the wiki reference, find me another.

First and foremost, only 11% of women have abortions over 12 weeks gestation and a mere 1.4% in the last trimester. Each state differs on when they allow abortion, but your framing the argument that the pro-choice movements favors "abortion-on-demand up to and including birth" is a bold faced lied.

868 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:12:44pm

re: #864 Naso Tang

I think you are confusing the right to abortion, at least in the first trimester, with legal rights as a person.

I don't think I am confusing anything. Legal abortions are permitted past the first trimester at any rate. The "right to abortion" is a political right based upon argument, not science. If a fetus is a human being physiologically, based upon medical science, I find it disturbing that many people insist the unborn child may be terminated based upon the will of another human being.

869 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:15:04pm

re: #850 Iron Fist
Statistics about the truth of these things fall on us through the media and as we should we dont trust them. We know we are lied to by both sides. So for me as I assume for you the real numbers are mind numbing.

I see us as animals. The biggest or greatest we will ever be is still small and fleeting, this truth evades us. Were we to really truly care about the big picture we would simplify everything to the point that it is monkey safe
and child proof and we could go then so much more happily into the future.

Tech is great where it softens the struggle but not when it is the kind of tech that softens our minds to the carnal facts of what we are.

Ive been on this thread too long today. I think I need to go look into google earth for a while. NBL my brother.

(I just got internet back for the first time in years and my head is already stuck up lgf's hind quarters.)

870 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:15:45pm

re: #858 kiwiviv

Well...at the very least I would hope that moderation included (on one side) the end to the massive, and mostly unnecessary, third-trimester abortions, and on the other, the end to the desire to kill those who perform third-trimester abortions.

I don't know the statistics of the former, except that most states don't allow it except for health reasons and that most anti abortion activists pretend that is what the majority of abortions are.

871 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:16:50pm

re: #865 kiwiviv

How do you separate the two?

Ever try to get a mortgage as a fetus?

/

872 justdanny  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:19:17pm

re: #862 ShanghaiEd
Rgr that. I am inconsistent. I am not a poet, priest or politician. As well I hope never to be so excited about my opinions and ideas that I cannot evolve up and away from them. I am a lot liquid.

873 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:20:39pm

re: #823 buzzsawmonkey

With all respect to the Christians here, not so "revolutionary" as you might think; you can find most of them in Isaiah or in the Talmudic rulings of Hillel.

Excellent point. Thanks for clarifying that.

874 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:21:55pm

re: #868 Timbre

I find it disturbing that many people insist the unborn child may be terminated based upon the will of another human being.

I seldom see any reference to the status and rights of the other human primarily involved. It's always an outside perspective by a third party with no direct connection.

875 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:23:34pm

re: #867 American Sabra

My posts on this thread are about the physiological humanity of the fetus. I am not arguing numbers. My post at #845 clarifies my position, as does #868. I am talking about a principle. I used a nine-month fetus as my example because it is the closest number to the "normal" birth age.

876 swamprat  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:25:29pm

re: #871 Naso Tang

Ever try to get a mortgage as a fetus?

/

They'll grant one if the little one takes a varible rate mortgage, high points and a hefty down

877 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:28:48pm

re: #876 swamprat

They'll grant one if the little one takes a varible rate mortgage, high points and a hefty down

Two years ago my dog could have gotten one :)

878 Timbre  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:29:31pm

re: #874 Naso Tang

I seldom see any reference to the status and rights of the other human primarily involved. It's always an outside perspective by a third party with no direct connection.

Whether or not a fetus is a human being has nothing to do with me being a "third party." It is a matter of medical science. "Rights" can be argued up, over, down, and around. Physiological development is a matter of science, not opinion.

879 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:32:24pm

re: #870 Naso Tang

I don't know the statistics of the former, except that most states don't allow it except for health reasons and that most anti abortion activists pretend that is what the majority of abortions are.

Your last sentence is absolutely untrue. It is as silly as saying pro abortion people think most anti abortion people don't believe in a woman's right to choose.

Let's just accept that fact that the majority of third trimester abortions are unnecessary, if not murderous

880 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:34:51pm

re: #871 Naso Tang

Ever try to get a mortgage as a fetus?

/

I don't see many five year olds getting a mortgage these days -

Is the ability to get a mortgage the only determining factor in personhood?

881 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:35:51pm
882 Silvergirl  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:38:48pm

re: #442 big steve

to katemaclaren......I ran the speech part about abortion through gender genie...

Female Score: 370
Male Score: 328

.....so you might be right....Gender Genie thinks a female wrote it. These analysis programs are not always accurate though.

Now that all is said and done, the full text of the speech shows as male.

Female Score: 4364
Male Score: 4725

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: male

883 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:42:01pm

re: #878 Timbre

Whether or not a fetus is a human being has nothing to do with me being a "third party." It is a matter of medical science. "Rights" can be argued up, over, down, and around. Physiological development is a matter of science, not opinion.

And physiologically an early fetus is vastly different from a full term human, so you argue from similarities and I from differences. I consider the life of the mother higher than an untested fetus, perhaps colored by knowing that the chances of that fetus ever being "wanted" are low.

Abortion is not to be taken lightly, I have seen it, but what really gets to me is the sanctimonious hypocrisy of all those high minded activists who also oppose any meaningful effort for birth control in the first place, and in that I include many at Notre Dame and the Pope.

Apologies to Catholics present, and with that I'm going upstream.

884 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 6:50:52pm

re: #883 Naso Tang
re: #883 Naso Tang

... I consider the life of the mother higher than an untested fetus, perhaps colored by knowing that the chances of that fetus ever being "wanted" are low.


Wow - in order to make this statement one would need to be equipped with the greatest of wisdom, knowledge, insight and ethics. We certainly cannot entrust such decisions to the "sanctimonious, hypocritical, high minded anti abortion activists."

885 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:00:33pm

re: #848 Timbre

OK, please answer one question for me since you understand Roe v. Wade. Did the Court hold that a fetus is a human being?

First of all, I don't claim to "understand" Roe v. Wade. It was one of the most convoluted SC decisions of all time. But that was precisely because it required a feat of almost superhuman give-and-take to achieve enough consensus on the Court to even issue an opinion. While many see this as a fault, I see it as a decision that will withstand the test of time because it sought to achieve a compromise among several differing beliefs and opinions.

That said, the question of whether a fetus is a human being was not before the Court. And, in a perfect world, the Court decides only the questions before it. Of course, we don't live in a perfect world and at times the Court is forced to wander a bit over the boundaries of the precise questions before it to achieve a consensus. But it did not, in this case, presume to answer the question you're asking.

And, hopefully, it never will, as that is NOT its job.

886 MacDuff  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:03:54pm

re: #798 ShanghaiEd

I would argue that there's nothing "realistic" about the teachings of Jesus. They were revolutionary, and were intended to overturn the then status quo of morality and legality that he described so vividly as a "whited sepulchre." And he paid the price for those teachings.

Human nature is realistic, and we suffer from it. Jesus was better than that. Or, so I was taught.

Yes, the teachings of Jesus were truly revolutionary and we should all strive toward that ideal. The concept of "just war" has been debated among theologians, (of which I am not one) for centuries and I, for one, believe in that concept.

I won't speak for Jesus, or claim to know God's mind; I can only speak for myself and my experiences. Those experiences have taught me that, when left to their own devices, some men are capable of unspeakable evil. When good men do nothing, evil will triumph and no amount of good example can prevent that. Sometimes it is incumbent upon men to eliminate that evil.

Many a devout Jew died during the Holocaust, praying that God deliver them. In the end, more than 6 million of them died. Did God forsake them? No, I don't think He did. Perhaps it is up to man to eliminate the evil that men do, perhaps it was His way of illustrating the absolute horror of which man is capable, perhaps it was His way of teaching us a lesson about ourselves.

Man is, by design, an imperfect creature. Christ is an ideal, in many ways he was an example of the perfection for which man should strive.

As for me, I see the reality of the evil that surrounds us and I cannot believe that God wants us to stand idle as it devours the world. As for my remark about the Vatican having too few realists, I will stand by that. I have not, nor have I ever expected men, such as the Pope, do do anything other than oppose war in all of it's forms; that is what they do. I do, however, lament the fact that their faith in God cannot be tempered with a healthy skepticism that faith alone will always work when dealing with the reality of man's evil.

887 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:04:02pm

re: #885 Lynn B.

But...in a way, THAT is the crux of the whole debate. If a fetus is NOT a human being, then abortion has no problem at all. However, if a fetus IS a human being, then abortion has a host of ethical implications and problems.

888 Born Again Republican  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:08:03pm

re: #881 Iron Fist

Texas is seeking to pass a bill on Infanticide Law. If a mother's child dies within the first year of life, accidentally or otherwise, it will be treated as a felony, maximum 2 years in prison. She will be tried using postpartum as it's defense. It's law in Canada.

We have not reach our line in the sand as a country.

889 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:09:19pm

re: #847 Naso Tang

Have to ask where you buy that, or do you have your own?

No, we don't have our own. They're big and smelly and noisy and the neighbors wouldn't like that at all. ;-)

We buy it down in the Italian Market in Philly. Here.

Extremely low in cholesterol and fat and utterly delicious.

890 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:18:46pm

re: #887 kiwiviv

But...in a way, THAT is the crux of the whole debate. If a fetus is NOT a human being, then abortion has no problem at all. However, if a fetus IS a human being, then abortion has a host of ethical implications and problems.

I suggest you read the opinion.

The assumption of many is that the Court ignored such issues. In fact, it did not. What it did do, what Justice Blackmun's barely consensus opinion did, was to address those concerns without presuming to render judgment on them as, again, that is beyond their capacity and responsibility. Especially if you understand that the notion of when human life begins is largely a religious concept about which the major religious groups in the U.S. do not necessarily agree. (See, e.g., NY Nana's #358, above.)

891 Jim D  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:21:38pm

re: #866 Charles

What worries me about folks that claim to know when their god is planning retribution is that it doesn't seem such a huge step for them to start thinking that their god might need some help.

892 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:28:41pm
893 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:39:29pm

re: #890 Lynn B.

I suggest you read the opinion.

The assumption of many is that the Court ignored such issues. In fact, it did not. What it did do, what Justice Blackmun's barely consensus opinion did, was to address those concerns without presuming to render judgment on them as, again, that is beyond their capacity and responsibility. Especially if you understand that the notion of when human life begins is largely a religious concept about which the major religious groups in the U.S. do not necessarily agree. (See, e.g., NY Nana's #358, above.)

Well...you are correct - it appears that the religious people can't agree, but neither do the legal folks.

Iron Fist #892 makes a good point.

I tried to read the opinion...it is waaaaay above my pay grade. I'm a simple gal who has seen too many fetuses survive outside the womb and displaying the wonders of God from conception, to land on the side of a court that cannot understand the notion of when human life begins.

894 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:46:27pm
895 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 7:51:13pm

re: #894 Iron Fist

You make a lot of sense - thank you

896 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:02:21pm
897 American Sabra  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:11:43pm

re: #896 Iron Fist

Take this any way you like... but sometimes I read you and I totally agree. Sometimes I totally agree, and then feel really dirty afterwards. Sometimes I'm so replused by you that I let out an audible "Ugh."

You're quite a conundrum. Or a riddle wrapped in a twinkie or something.

898 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:14:41pm

Again - I agree with everything you are saying.

I cannot go along with "the woman's RIGHT to choose" issue.

For the most part, in this country:
Woman have the right to choose if they have sex
Women have the right to choose if they use contraceptives
Women have the right to choose who they have sex with
Women have the right to choose how they take care of THEIR OWN bodies

But...Why should women have the right to choose death for the children living in the womb? When do those women get to choose for their lives?

899 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:15:01pm

re: #891 Jim D

What worries me about folks that claim to know when their god is planning retribution is that it doesn't seem such a huge step for them to start thinking that their god might need some help.

It's not a huge step at all -- and in fact, more than one anti-abortion "activist" has taken that step, and committed violence and terrorism in the name of Jesus.

900 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:19:59pm

re: #892 Iron Fist

Hard cases make bad law. The opinion itself is, as you say, convoluted. In law that can sometimes be a feature, not a bug. For lawyers, at least. For those who aren't lawyers it just makes the law incomprehensible. That has the side effect of Judges being able to interpret the law any way they like, regardless of whether or not the actual merits of the case support their decision. One purpose
of the Judicial system (and thus, judges) is to clarify the law. Roe does not do this. That is one big reason why many people say that it is bad law. Subsequent cases have built on Roe to the point that the right to an abortion is easily the most legally protected right that we have. If you applied this kind of jurisprudence to Second Amendment issues we would be discussing whether or not the Federal Government should have to supply me with an automatic rifle and ammunition if I couldn't afford to buy one on my own.

Actually, the adage is "bad facts make bad law." But people adapt it as suits their purposes.

I don't know what "subsequent cases" you're talking about. In actual fact, subsequent cases have, if anything, only eroded the "choice" elements of Roe.

And your reference to applying "this kind of jurisprudence to Second Amendment issues" makes no sense. Roe in no way eroded any element of the Constitution and certainly eroded no rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, of which, of course, the Second Amendment is in integral part.

Sorry for the delay in responding. A phone call from my mom took precedence.

/yeah. irony.

901 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:25:30pm
902 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:26:33pm

re: #899 Charles

It's not a huge step at all -- and in fact, more than one anti-abortion "activist" has taken that step, and committed violence and terrorism in the name of Jesus.

Don't the pro abortion crowd also think that the removal of fetuses is helping God?

903 ShanghaiEd  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:27:47pm

re: #886 MacDuff

Yes, the teachings of Jesus were truly revolutionary and we should all strive toward that ideal. The concept of "just war" has been debated among theologians, (of which I am not one) for centuries and I, for one, believe in that concept.

I won't speak for Jesus, or claim to know God's mind; I can only speak for myself and my experiences. Those experiences have taught me that, when left to their own devices, some men are capable of unspeakable evil. When good men do nothing, evil will triumph and no amount of good example can prevent that. Sometimes it is incumbent upon men to eliminate that evil.

Many a devout Jew died during the Holocaust, praying that God deliver them. In the end, more than 6 million of them died. Did God forsake them? No, I don't think He did. Perhaps it is up to man to eliminate the evil that men do, perhaps it was His way of illustrating the absolute horror of which man is capable, perhaps it was His way of teaching us a lesson about ourselves.

Man is, by design, an imperfect creature. Christ is an ideal, in many ways he was an example of the perfection for which man should strive.

As for me, I see the reality of the evil that surrounds us and I cannot believe that God wants us to stand idle as it devours the world. As for my remark about the Vatican having too few realists, I will stand by that. I have not, nor have I ever expected men, such as the Pope, do do anything other than oppose war in all of it's forms; that is what they do. I do, however, lament the fact that their faith in God cannot be tempered with a healthy skepticism that faith alone will always work when dealing with the reality of man's evil.

I respect and appreciate your thoughtful and well-reasoned view, though it's different than my own. I enjoy your comments here, and I wish you all the best.

904 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:28:00pm

re: #902 kiwiviv

Don't the pro abortion crowd also think that the removal of fetuses is helping God?

No.

905 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:28:24pm

re: #837 kiwiviv

Then why are the pro choice people so unwilling to allow ANY moderation in abortion law whatsoever?

The answer to that question is complex but there are clues in a number of comments Charles has made in this very thread. Pro-choice activists will tell you that allowing the camel's nose under the tent will result in the elimination of every last vestige of reproductive rights. Pro-life activists like Rick Santorum and Jill Stanek lend credibility to that claim by trying to turn every compromise into a massacre. Both sides have learned, with good reason, to distrust each other.

I think the president was trying to call for a pull-back from these battle lines today. Maybe it was just politics but even if it was, it's worth considering.

906 Grand Poobah  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:31:26pm

re: #15 Charles

The person taking the anti-abortion side on CNN just said that if it had been Rudy Giuliani or Arnold Schwarzenegger giving the speech, the angry reaction would have been exactly the same.

I do not believe that for one second.

Perhaps not as vocal, but I am sure you would find a crowd protesting...something...

907 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:36:07pm

re: #772 JPL17

I stand corrected.

Still, the Vatican condemned the Iraq invasion. I can see the same people who are jumping all over Notre Dame for inviting Obama being vewy, vewy quiet if Bush had been selected for an honorary degree.

The hypocrisy is palpable.

908 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:36:08pm

re: #884 kiwiviv

re: #883 Naso Tang


Wow - in order to make this statement one would need to be equipped with the greatest of wisdom, knowledge, insight and ethics. We certainly cannot entrust such decisions to the "sanctimonious, hypocritical, high minded anti abortion activists."

You cherry pick your false analogies. Every case is unique, as are people, but my comment above was in regard to attitudes towards birth control, or family planning, not abortion only. But you knew that, didn't you?

909 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:36:20pm

re: #893 kiwiviv

Well...you are correct - it appears that the religious people can't agree, but neither do the legal folks.

Iron Fist #892 makes a good point.

I tried to read the opinion...it is waaaaay above my pay grade. I'm a simple gal who has seen too many fetuses survive outside the womb and displaying the wonders of God from conception, to land on the side of a court that cannot understand the notion of when human life begins.

Above your pay grade. And yet you see fit to reject out of hand the considered opinions of people whose job it is to contemplate and deliberate and decide these issues. Again, it's not the Court's job to decide when life begins. The Court's job is to decide whether laws passed by state legislatures violate the precepts of our Constitution. That's what they did. That, and only that. Your experience with fetuses and the wonder of God is important and relevant on many levels but not this one.

The fact is that each individual human being on the Court has his (and now her) own notions of when human life begins. But those notions are between them, their conscience and their God (or not). We don't want those notions intruding into their deliberations at Supreme Court justices. If they did, we'd need a religious litmus test for SCOTUS qualification. And yours would undoubtedly be very different than mine, which would be very different from many other Americans'. Not where we want to go.

910 avspatti  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:38:24pm

re: #857 Charles

Jill Stanek. Now there's a credible source.

For stoking outrage, that is.

Isn't she the nurse who discovered abortion survivors (those are babies BTW) being put in dirty linen closets to die? Really, if I had seen that going on, I would only hope that I had the courage to try to stop it. That is barbarism at its finest.

911 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:38:28pm

re: #905 Lynn B.

I think the president was trying to call for a pull-back from these battle lines today. Maybe it was just politics but even if it was, it's worth considering.

I am against abortion, but I am prepared to pull back and listen to anyone who is reasonable. I don't particularly like Obama - he hasn't done much to make me think he is anything but a crafty politician and a good speaker...but I am prepared to give him a go on this issue - let's see what he comes up with.

912 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:42:55pm

re: #894 Iron Fist

Look. You're presuming your own conclusions. You and I do not agree on this issue and I try to avoid engaging you on it because it's clear that neither of us is going to convince the other. I'm not trying to win people over to "my" position here. I view this as an entirely religious issue and no matter who I've debated it with, it always ends up there.

And I don't debate matters of faith.

/except on those rare occasions on which I'm in flagrant violation of your rule, dude ... and then I'm always sorry the next day.

913 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:47:07pm
914 koedo  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:51:16pm

Partial birth abortion; nothing sensible about that.

915 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 8:52:45pm
916 kiwiviv  Sun, May 17, 2009 9:02:18pm

re: #909 Lynn B.

Above your pay grade. And yet you see fit to reject out of hand the considered opinions of people whose job it is to contemplate and deliberate and decide these issues. Again, it's not the Court's job to decide when life begins. The Court's job is to decide whether laws passed by state legislatures violate the precepts of our Constitution. That's what they did. That, and only that. Your experience with fetuses and the wonder of God is important and relevant on many levels but not this one.

The fact is that each individual human being on the Court has his (and now her) own notions of when human life begins. But those notions are between them, their conscience and their God (or not). We don't want those notions intruding into their deliberations at Supreme Court justices. If they did, we'd need a religious litmus test for SCOTUS qualification. And yours would undoubtedly be very different than mine, which would be very different from many other Americans'. Not where we want to go.

Having an opinion is certainly NOT "rejecting out of hand the considered opinions of people whose job it is to contemplate and deliberate and decide these issues."

It might be above my pay grade to fully understand (like you) the full ramifications of Roe v. Wade, but surely I am allowed an opinion without showing disrespect to the Justices.

I think it is a cop out to take God out of the decision to end life. We are asking mothers to make the decision when life begins - surely the Supreme Court Justices could be asked to weigh in on this foundational aspect of their interpretation of the Law

917 Lynn B.  Sun, May 17, 2009 9:03:05pm

re: #913 Iron Fist

The eye of the beholder ... and all that.

Here's another take, with a few more specifics and, I think, a more realistic view. YMMV

Not sure where it was you were taught that "hard cases make bad law" but, actually, the opposite is the case. Easy cases only result in tweaks. Brown v. Board of Education (to pick one at random ...not) was a hard case. I think it turned out pretty well. It's when the facts are anomalous and inapplicable to most real-life situations that the law applied to them tends to generate ridiculous and inequitable results.

At any rate, the clock has struck midnight here and I'm out of juice. To be continued, I'm sure ...

918 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 9:05:18pm
919 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 9:12:01pm
920 [deleted]  Sun, May 17, 2009 9:22:52pm
921 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 17, 2009 9:24:11pm

Disgusting. Get off my website.

922 experiencedtraveller  Sun, May 17, 2009 9:26:58pm

Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).

Source: Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition.

Source: E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3rd edition. Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975. p. vii.

Biologically speaking, human development begins at fertilization.

Source: The Biology of Prenatal Develpment, National Geographic, 2006.

The two cells gradually and gracefully become one. This is the moment of conception, when an individual's unique set of DNA is created, a human signature that never existed before and will never be repeated.

Source: In the Womb, National Geographic, 2005.

923 Altermite  Sun, May 17, 2009 10:12:36pm

re: #849 justdanny

Well said. There is unruly fanaticism on both extremes. And when I consider all of the issues I can find myself torn and pushed from this side to that.

For example, I know for sure it was the "womens lib" movement that lead to the corrosion of the stable healthy family unit, yet I am unable to come down on the side of those opposed to women having all the same rights as men.

For over a million years humans adapted into these roles and it was likely these different roles for men and women that quaranteed that humans would survive and thrive. And I believe that almost every social ill this country packed with social ills suffers from comes from poor parenting and absent parents.

Womens lib, once it has cured and seasoned will spell the end of western culture. We are humans, not high ideals or well reasoned philosphies. We are animals and our big brains and all there ability to consider everything in such detail are going to wipe us off this planet.

(ok i'll shush now)


I'm sorry? It seems like you are pinning all of societal problems on something called the women's lib movement? What does that mean to you?

924 Westward Ho  Mon, May 18, 2009 1:28:33am

re: #439 baldeagle

.... A chicago thug in a nice suit .. he will call the military out to "quell" some sort of "disturbance", and he wants the military to support him. .

More of 200% proof ODS about Hussein Da Dicktator. Political correctness will not allow them to actually express their minds.

925 suntory_boss  Mon, May 18, 2009 2:28:27am

As an unapologetic athiest, you don't need to have religion or believe in God to know that abortion is wrong. It comes from sociopathic self absorption. You'd kill your own child because it's inconvenient to you? That's a classic sociopath. Why should we fear calling something what it is? If you can kill your own child because it's merely inconvenient to you, you are incapable of love, you are completely selfish; in short, you are a sociopath. Dehumanizing things makes it "easier". It's how they used to justify slavery, by saying blacks weren't humans. The nazis had easier times killing Jews because they didn't think they were humans. Now, they say "it's just cells", Yup, that makes it easier to kill those cells. But is it a chicken? A cow? A pig? A plant? What would it be if you didn't kill it? A mushroom? Nope, it would be your human child.

As a test, of how abortion impacts people, why Doesn't the President or his wife remind his two daughters on a daily basis that Mrs. Obama could have decided to abort them, and remind them on a daily basis of that. You'd think that might have an impact on their self esteem, right? But Mrs. Obama DID have the choice to abort them. Why hide this from them?

926 justdanny  Mon, May 18, 2009 3:42:06am

re: #923 Altermite
It means that I believe when the mother saw her independence from the family as more important than her traditional role in the family, the family stopped being what it had spent millions of years evolving into. What worked was abandoned for what seemed right.

The role of Mother is the most important role there is. When that important figure is removed from the family unit the unit no longer functions properly. The chief victims of this malfunction are the children. As well when a father is removed from the family it no longer functions properly.

When the family breaks down so too does society. I don't mean to blame all of societies problems on "womens lib". I do however believe that "womens lib" is a key factor in the malfunction of the modern western family.

927 MacDuff  Mon, May 18, 2009 5:25:01am

re: #903 ShanghaiEd

I respect and appreciate your thoughtful and well-reasoned view, though it's different than my own. I enjoy your comments here, and I wish you all the best.

Differing opinions force us to examine our own, which is always beneficial. Thank you for the civil, and helpful discourse. All the best to you, as well.

928 Salamantis  Mon, May 18, 2009 7:01:04am

re: #925 suntory_boss

As an unapologetic athiest, you don't need to have religion or believe in God to know that abortion is wrong. It comes from sociopathic self absorption. You'd kill your own child because it's inconvenient to you? That's a classic sociopath. Why should we fear calling something what it is? If you can kill your own child because it's merely inconvenient to you, you are incapable of love, you are completely selfish; in short, you are a sociopath. Dehumanizing things makes it "easier". It's how they used to justify slavery, by saying blacks weren't humans. The nazis had easier times killing Jews because they didn't think they were humans. Now, they say "it's just cells", Yup, that makes it easier to kill those cells. But is it a chicken? A cow? A pig? A plant? What would it be if you didn't kill it? A mushroom? Nope, it would be your human child.

As a test, of how abortion impacts people, why Doesn't the President or his wife remind his two daughters on a daily basis that Mrs. Obama could have decided to abort them, and remind them on a daily basis of that. You'd think that might have an impact on their self esteem, right? But Mrs. Obama DID have the choice to abort them. Why hide this from them?

Nice try on playing the emotional heartstings and endeavoring to provoke an override of intellection by mislabeling zygotes and embryos as children so you can slander and slime women who choose abortions as monstrous psychopaths, but I'm on to such sophistrous rhetorical tricks.

However I will express the equally emotional opinion that you are an odious and execrable anus for possessing the utter gall to assert such a disgusting opinion concerning an entire class of people most of whom you've never met and of whose lives and circumstances you know absolutely nothing.

Now, let's return to a reasoned and rational discussion of these issues.

There is a vast difference between life and personhood. Zygotes and embryos aren't even potential persons, because the connotation of the word 'personal' implies that unless one intervenes, actualization of a potential is ensured. However, more than a third of pregnancies end in miscarriages (spontaneous abortions), which poses the question, if one believes that these are due to the will of a perfect God rather than the vagaries of an impersonal Nature, whether God made the mistake by aborting the zygotes and embryos, or whether God made a mistake by permitting the subsequently miscarried pregnancies to transpire in the first place.

No, zygotes are instead possible future persons, and where the rights of possible future persons and the rights of actual present persons come into conflict, the rights of the latter must take moral precedence.

I have been a clinic escort, and have talked to many of these women. They do not choose abortions as cavalierly as one might choose a hair color at a salon; the vast majority of them have agonized over their decisions. But of those who have chosen abortion, a solid majority are committed to it with the desperate intensity of a wild animal willing to chew its own paw off in order to escape from a trap. If abortion became illegal, they would resort to back alley butchers, coathangers, or knitting needles, and there would once again be a deluge of septic or bled out women flooding our hospitals and morgues. Would you order the survivors imprisoned or executed? Or would you prefer the expedient of shackling allegedly 'at risk' women to beds under restraints for the duration of their pregnancies, and warping their wombs into jails?

If abortion is ever outlawed, I will become a drug dealer. And the one drug that I will deal, at cost, is RU-486. And there will be many thousands like me. Considering the drastic and dire alternatives, it's the only ethical choice that I can make.

929 jill e  Mon, May 18, 2009 7:53:47am

It is important to remember that the Catholic defense of the right to life is not a matter of arcane or esoteric Catholic doctrine: You don't have to believe in the primacy of the pope, in seven sacraments, in Mary's assumption into heaven, in the divine and human natures of Christ—you don't even have to believe in God—to take seriously the Catholic claim that innocent human life has an inalienable dignity and value that demands the protection of the laws. For that claim is not a uniquely Catholic claim; it reflects a first principle of justice that anyone can grasp, irrespective of their religious convictions or lack thereof. —George Weigel

930 [deleted]  Mon, May 18, 2009 7:54:45am
931 MacDuff  Mon, May 18, 2009 8:31:04am

re: #930 voluble

While, substantively, much of what you say is grounds for agreement, your allusion to Obama going to Notre Dame being tantamount to a Nazi speaking before a Jewish University is, in my opinion, out of line. We endured the "BusHitler" crap for 8 years and changing the name doesn't make it any less classless. Overblown and overheated rhetoric will not get us where we need to go - civilized dicussions on the folly of Obama's proposed policies will.

932 noodle213  Mon, May 18, 2009 8:31:46am

He just said, I don't agree with you and changed the subject. As any leftist does when cornered.

933 American Sabra  Mon, May 18, 2009 8:40:19am

re: #915 Iron Fist

I'm very, um, complex. I've done too much and seen too much not to be. Your reaction doesn't surprise me. It probably means that you are one of those normal people they warn you about.

:-)

lol I will also add to your resume, self-deprecating which is always a plus (you dinged me up, up there....)

934 American Sabra  Mon, May 18, 2009 8:44:16am

I want Lynn B to be my new best friend.

935 [deleted]  Mon, May 18, 2009 9:42:47am
936 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 18, 2009 9:49:44am

#930 voluble:

Comments that compare Barack Obama to a Nazi are going to be deleted. That kind of talk is WAY over the line, and I'm not going to allow it here. If it continues, I'll block your account.

937 doubter4444  Mon, May 18, 2009 10:59:31am

re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist

I agree.
That's obviously a pretty simplistic way of putting it, and I have not read all the comments to see how others have responded, and I sure lots could use bits and pieces to say that's not true or wrongheaded, or that you just don't get it.
But it the perception and it does have a gut feel of truth to it.

938 Land Shark  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:20:33am

I once heard abortion referred to as "slow motion cultural suicide" by a gentleman during a conversation on abortion. He explained it from a strictly Darwinian, survival of the fittest point of view. He thought any culture that practiced abortion was at a severe disadvantage versus one that didn't, because the culture reducing it's numbers voluntarily would eventually find itself outnumbered by the one that didn't. Looking at the situation in Europe, where abortion has been around longer and practiced with more "enthusiasm" than in the US, the population of native born Europeans is actually declining or about to in many countries, while the population of Muslim immigrants continues to rise, not just through immigration but by birth as well. He said that's simple natural selection, the culture that doesn't practice abortion will eventually replace or subjugate the one that does if things do not change. A numbers game if you will. In his view abortion was a maladaptive trait or situation, no different than what can happen in nature and lead to extinction. A take on abortion I had never considered before.

Of course, abortion isn't the only factor working against the numbers of native Europeans, there are many people both there and in the US who don't have children because of careers, infertility, etc. But when one looks at the sheer number of abortions (It's estimated there's been 40 million or so abortions in the US since Roe v Wade, the number is probably substantially higher in Europe), it's hard to believe it's not an important factor in the equation. It was certainly one of the more interesting takes I've ever heard about abortion, putting it in Darwinian terms.

939 TheHardHat  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:22:51am

Is it just me? Is there anyone else out there that thinks that BHO was reading his script and nothing more? You can't believe anything the guy says. Follow the money and the money flows from the abortion clinics and to the Progressives.

940 Salamantis  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:36:06am

re: #938 Land Shark

I once heard abortion referred to as "slow motion cultural suicide" by a gentleman during a conversation on abortion. He explained it from a strictly Darwinian, survival of the fittest point of view. He thought any culture that practiced abortion was at a severe disadvantage versus one that didn't, because the culture reducing it's numbers voluntarily would eventually find itself outnumbered by the one that didn't. Looking at the situation in Europe, where abortion has been around longer and practiced with more "enthusiasm" than in the US, the population of native born Europeans is actually declining or about to in many countries, while the population of Muslim immigrants continues to rise, not just through immigration but by birth as well. He said that's simple natural selection, the culture that doesn't practice abortion will eventually replace or subjugate the one that does if things do not change. A numbers game if you will. In his view abortion was a maladaptive trait or situation, no different than what can happen in nature and lead to extinction. A take on abortion I had never considered before.

Of course, abortion isn't the only factor working against the numbers of native Europeans, there are many people both there and in the US who don't have children because of careers, infertility, etc. But when one looks at the sheer number of abortions (It's estimated there's been 40 million or so abortions in the US since Roe v Wade, the number is probably substantially higher in Europe), it's hard to believe it's not an important factor in the equation. It was certainly one of the more interesting takes I've ever heard about abortion, putting it in Darwinian terms.

This is precisely the rationale underlying Nazi Germany's decision to build and populate lebensborns - camps where women were bred to SS members chosen for their Aryan characteristics so they could raise soldiers for the Reich. It was as odious then as it would be now.

941 jill e  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:44:54am

Slippery slope...recently a judge in Sweden ruled that abortion for gender selection is legal.

Frederick Douglass had to go in front of audiences with a speech entitled, "That the Negro is a Man," to prove that he and others like him were actual persons. I am of the belief that abortion today is what slavery was in the 19th century.

942 Salamantis  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:46:29am

re: #935 Iron Fist

You've said this before. At first blush it just sounds like hyperbole, but you have said it enough times that I believe that you are seious. Have you actually thought about the very real barriers to entry in the world of dealing drugs? It's not like you an place your resume online, or take out a newspaper classified ad offering your services.

The first thing you will need to find is a source. It may be the case that you can purchase limited quanties in Canada or Mexico, and attempt to smuggle them over the border, but these will be small quantities. Smuggling drugs into the United States is a crime. I would bet money if you went to Canada, got 4000 or so pills (they aren't going to give you that kind of quantity at a pharmacy even if it is an over the counter drug. Finding a black market supplier of that particular drug would probably be pretty low, because it is legal to get it in Canada. There's simply not going to be the black market demand for RU-486 to make it worthwhile for them to go through the hassel to get a drug that will bring him little enough profit.

Assume, for the sake of arguement, you find somebody to get the drugs for you at a pricepoint you can afford (it doesn't sound like you want to make killer profit for dealing. If you get caught, the judge and jury might take that into consideration), now, how do you get them into the United States? Smuggling little shit is pretty easy, but large quantities of something require room. I could expand on that a little, but let's stay on track.

I have already stated that I would be doing it for humanitarian reasons, and without the objective of accruing any personal profit whatsoever.

Assuming you've avoided the Border Patrol, (it can be done, but you'll have to either hire a coyote or some other guide to help you get back to wherever you parked your car) and gotten your illicit load, how do you plan to market it? You could probably find someone from a closed clinic, and you could use her patient list as something to try to get repeat business from them, but vou will have to be careful.

I retain connections with NOW, with whom I volunteered as a clinic escort, as well as with clinic personnel. I would offer my services to them. But I will not get into how I would proceed with RU-486 importation and distribution on this list, for obvious reasons.

While many women undergo abortion with no negative psychological impact, others are completely shattered. They could fall into a number of states, even multiple states of psychological disorders. From chronic depression (and its attendant suicides), to acting out in bad behavior (promiscuity that leads to another pregnancy that is aborted... It becomes a cycle) to post traumatic stress disorder ("I deserve this, because I suck!" is very common to in women who've had an abortion). Like almost all psychological disorders, it will take time for the disease to manifest itself, but when it does, watch out.

It can get real unplesent. I've never seen a study on it (OB/GYN is not my field), but it would be interesting to perform a longitudinal study of the mental health of women who have had an abortion through the years. IIRC, one has been done on the physical effects, and the general physical effects that can be traced definiantly to their abortion. There needs to be something similar done for mental health and wellbeing of women who have abortions. Anybody in grad school out there in Lurker Land working on a masters or PHd in the social science field? Here's an idea for a research project, maybe even a thesis.

The frequency of psychological damage to women coerced into bringing unwanted pregancies to term would numerically far outweigh your suggested scenario. My ex-wife still suffers emotional turmoil from being pushed into such an action against her will, thirty years later. Let's see that study done.

943 doubter4444  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:57:46am

re: #925 suntory_boss

Fuck off

944 Salamantis  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:57:57am

re: #940 Salamantis

This is precisely the rationale underlying Nazi Germany's decision to build and populate lebensborns - camps where women were bred to SS members chosen for their Aryan characteristics so they could raise soldiers for the Reich. It was as odious then as it would be now.

I also note that subjecting individual freedoms to the strictures of collective mandates and prohibitions is the path taken by totalitarianisms, not constitutional democratic republics, which reverence individual freedoms. It is a particularly execrable practice when applied to the forced manufacture of citizens - for whatever purpose, be it military or more generally demographic. Even Russia has opted to avoid this path, choosing instead to offer financial incentives for childbearing. It is equally repulsive when placed in the sevice of population control, as forced abortions are employed in China. They are a truly pro-abortion regime; the US, otoh, is pro-choice, allowing our women citizens the right to choose to either terminate their pregnancies or to carry them to term.

945 Land Shark  Mon, May 18, 2009 12:06:59pm

re: #940 Salamantis

Not quite. What happened in Nazi Germany with those centers was an implementation of those heinous Nazi racial laws that tried to make Germany's population more "Aryan", as well as produce more "Aryans" for wars of conquest and colonization of areas conquered. What's going on in Europe is an unintended consequence of numerous cultural factors, abortion on demand, people deciding not to have children for whatever reasons, unrestricted inmigration and the complete rejection of abortion by a substantial portion of that population, among other things.

It's no accident that on more than one occasion have heard Muslim militant types speak of their women's wombs as a weapon or vehicle towards Islamic supremacism in the future. Clearly, they see it in terms that are similar to how the Nazis saw it.

946 Salamantis  Mon, May 18, 2009 12:20:50pm

re: #945 Land Shark

Not quite. What happened in Nazi Germany with those centers was an implementation of those heinous Nazi racial laws that tried to make Germany's population more "Aryan", as well as produce more "Aryans" for wars of conquest and colonization of areas conquered. What's going on in Europe is an unintended consequence of numerous cultural factors, abortion on demand, people deciding not to have children for whatever reasons, unrestricted inmigration and the complete rejection of abortion by a substantial portion of that population, among other things.

It's no accident that on more than one occasion have heard Muslim militant types speak of their women's wombs as a weapon or vehicle towards Islamic supremacism in the future. Clearly, they see it in terms that are similar to how the Nazis saw it.

And there is no moral justification possible for us to reduce women to receptacles and broodmares in a similar fashion. Only in fascisms, communisms, and theocracies can I see such collectivist totalitarian enslavement of individual human women for biologically reproductive purposes being perpetrated in this day and age.

Then again, these are precisely the positions that Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists, who strive to replace the US Constitution with the Bible, institute a fundamentalist Christian version of Sharia law, punish adultery and homosexuality with death, and morph our schools into creationist madrassas and our constitutional democracy into a totalitarian theocracy along the lines of Saudi Arabia or Iran, would eagerly embrace.

I do not want our nation's future to have been prophesied by Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale.

947 Land Shark  Mon, May 18, 2009 12:40:26pm

re: #946 Salamantis

I agree, and I was in no way suggesting we should. My opposition to abortion is based on human rights. But the reality is that Muslims militants see it in similar terms to the Nazis, and they see abortion among non-Muslims as an advantage for them in their efforts to impose Sharia law.

And while there may be Christian fundamentalists bent imposing their version of Sharia law, they are a small minority of Christians, their view is rejected by most Christians from my experience. I'm not convinced that's the case with Muslims. Too many seem either afraid to oppose the militants or secretly support them.

948 suntory_boss  Mon, May 18, 2009 1:41:30pm

@ 943

Wow that was mature. Did you learn that in Berkeley?

949 drcordell  Mon, May 18, 2009 2:15:16pm

Let's assume that somehow Roe v. Wade actually manages to get overturned. How is that a victory for conservatism? Any woman wealthy enough to afford a plane ticket would simply fly over to Europe to have their abortion. Leaving women who can't afford that option to either have a child they don't want or go get a back-alley abortion. And the amount of children receiving welfare, state-funded education and health care would explode.

If the government is going to force every pregnant woman to carry their child to term, paying for the social services of that child has pretty much got to be part of the deal. Not something I'm interested in.

950 drcordell  Mon, May 18, 2009 2:21:32pm

re: #30 SlartyBartfast

Impugn the man's policies all you want, but to say that he's not qualified to be a dog catcher just makes you look ignorant.

951 Hawaii69  Mon, May 18, 2009 2:41:50pm

re: #10 Macker

IIRC, this is still America and we still have the right to protest, as long as it's done peacefully. Were Keyes and Terry arrested for advocating violence, or were they vocal in their opposition to БХО?

Notre Dame is private property. They have no right to be there at all.

952 ShanghaiRay  Mon, May 18, 2009 11:39:49pm

Let The Record Speak For Itself
BHO's Illinois Senate voting record:

1997 Votes
SB 230 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. Senate approved bill 44-7, with five senators voting present, including Obama.

HB 382 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. House version, passed Illinois State Senate, adopted as law. Under the bill, doctors who perform partial-birth abortions could be sent to prison for one to three years. The woman would not be held liable.

2001 Votes
HB 1900 Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed 38-10, with nine present votes, including Obama.

SB 562 Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed Senate 39-7, with 11 present votes, including Obama.

SB 1093 Law to protect Liveborn children. Bill passed 34-6, with 12 present, including Obama.

SB 1094 Bill to protect children born as result of induced labor abortion. Bill passed 33-6, with 13 present, including Obama.

SB 1095 Bill defining "born alive" defines "born-alive infant" to include infant "born alive at any stage of development." Bill passed 34-5, with nine present, including Obama.

A "Present" vote is basically a "No" vote in disguise. If anyone thinks that Obama is anywhere near being "Pro-Life or Pro-Choice" they are basically clueless beyond belief IMHO.

And, I don't give a rat's behind about the rest of the stuff about him being invited to ND etc. It's a private school and they can handle it as they wish. I wouldn't go to the Commencement but that's just me being me.

953 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:44:08am

Since people keep repeating the "Obama supports infanticide" canard, I'll just repeat my comment:

The Born Alive Infant Protection Act was not simply a bill to protect infants "born alive." It was an attempt by the anti-abortion lobby to change the way abortion is defined in the law, and undercut Roe v. Wade. The bill Obama opposed was intended to increase the liability for doctors and hospitals that perform abortions.

This is a good post about it, with lots of quotes from the actual bills and the deceptive language introduced by the Stanek-Santorum crowd:

[Link: blogs.chicagotribune.com...]

This is NOT as simple as "Obama supports baby-killing." I am NO FAN OF BARACK OBAMA, but there's a lot of dishonesty going on in this issue -- from the right-wing side.


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