Paulians Shout Down Lindsey Graham in SC, Sanford Co-Signs

PoliticsMay 2009 • Views: 4,446

At the South Carolina GOP convention (where creationist Karen Floyd was unanimously elected to lead the state’s Republican Party), Sen. Lindsey Graham gave a speech that became a farce when he said, “Let me tell you — Ron Paul, I like, I admire him, but I don’t agree with him all the time and he’s not the leader of this party.”

At that point, a Paulian in the crowd screamed “Yes he is!” — and a substantial number of people agreed with hoots and applause.

Youtube Video

Bad craziness. And it gets worse. After Graham’s speech, another Paulian confronted Governor Mark Sanford about Graham, and Sanford proceeded to attack Graham and by implication, defend Ron Paul.

Youtube Video

Mark Sanford, like most GOP politicians (including Ron Paul), is a creationist as well; he was previously featured at LGF when he made this stunningly ignorant statement in favor of teaching “intelligent design” as science:

DS: What do you think about the idea of teaching alternatives to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution in public schools* for instance Intelligent Design?

Gov. Sanford: I have no problem with it.

DS: Do you think it should be done that way? Rather than just teaching evolution?

Gov. Sanford: Well I think that it’s just, and science is more and more documenting this, is that there are real “chinks” in the armor of evolution being the only way we came about. The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being* is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of … in essence, destruction.

Whether you think about your bedroom and how messy it gets over time or you think about the decay in the building itself over time. Things don’t naturally order themselves towards progression*. Uuummm.. in the natural order of things. So, it’s in fact, it’s against fairly basic laws of physics* and so I would not have a problem in teaching both * Uh, you saying this is one theory and this is another theory.

This has been a snapshot of a party going completely off the rails and into the weeds.

Jump to bottom

777 comments

pat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:12:31am

I am no fan of either.

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:13:05am

This is going to get crazier before it gets saner, I fear.

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:14:22am

So this is the true metaphor of "Crash and Burn".

Very sad.

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 11:14:42am

If Ron Paul become the new face of the GOP, I'm out

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 11:15:00am

/That Graham, what a cracker.

ilzito guacamolito Tue, May 19, 2009 11:15:26am

This has been a snapshot of a party going completely off the rails and into the weeds.

Yeah, great. Thanks for that.

Help us.

DaddyG Tue, May 19, 2009 11:15:54am

Anyone wanting the be the heir of the party of Ronald Reagan should emulate him while he was President, not when he was suffering from Alzheimers.

/sorry President Reagan it had to be said...

Wendya Tue, May 19, 2009 11:16:32am

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If Ron Paul become the new face of the GOP, I'm out

If Lindsey Graham becomes the face of the GOP I won't be any happier.

Where the hell's the middle ground?

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:16:38am

Anti-vaxers, Paulians, Troofers, jihadis, creationists, IDers ... they are all coming out from under their rocks ... is this the begining of the end?
/just askin'

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:16:49am

They can believe whatever they want, I don't care, but the fact that they're voicing their opinions does seem to indicate a desire to spread them ... to everyone.

/Welcome to Dayton, Tennessee

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 11:17:18am

ilzito guacamolito Tue, May 19, 2009 11:17:55am

The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being* is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of ... in essence, destruction.

WTF?

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:18:25am

re: #11 taxfreekiller

Lindsey Graham makes deals with commie loon Democrats like B. Obama
he is the worst case RINO, be gone, get out of the way.

Ron Paul has 33 Republicans nation wide, on the other hand he does have thousands of former anti war, anti American Democrat loon liberals who do support his crazy ass shit. We do not want or need Paul or his bat shit crazy loon liberal libertarian nut cases..

like that

TFK, it seems as if reason has taken a holiday and we are in for a rough ride until who knows when.

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 11:18:29am

I can only hope Mitt sees whats going on, is keeping his distance and is just waiting for the implosion to take most of these idiots out of contension before getting involved again.

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 11:18:37am

The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being* is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of ... in essence, destruction.

Great stuff! Not only a refutation of evolution, but also embryological development too! I guess some folks really aren't kidding when they talk about the miracle of birth eh?

DaddyG Tue, May 19, 2009 11:18:50am

re: #9 Gang of One

Anti-vaxers, Paulians, Troofers, jihadis, creationists, IDers ... they are all coming out from under their rocks ... is this the begining of the end?
/just askin'

Even been to an amateur sporting event where they let the little kids play on the field between halves? These are the kids playing around before the adults come back and take the field for the next election cycle. (I pray)

EaterOfFood Tue, May 19, 2009 11:19:48am

While I wouldn't mind actually backing up our currency with a tangible physical material that has value, Paul's reactionary isolationism and support from anti-semites make him beyond the pale for me.

And we know the Paulians are lying when they say he's the leader of the GOP. They have no leadership right now.

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 11:20:09am

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 11:20:35am

Sanford is talking about "entropy", which he is unable to name. Entropy is the principle in chemistry that in a dynamic system, things tends towards disorder. My organic chemistry professor in college, for example, had an automobile that he fondly named "Entropy".

What that has to do with evolution is, to be polite, unclear. Being impolite, it's completely irrelevant to evolution. I much prefer my politicians to confess their ignorance about such matters rather than proudly proclaim it!

As for Ron Paul, I tell my libertarian friends over and over-- the guy consorts with neo-Nazis and 9/11 conspiracy theory Truthers. He's not the guy you want leading the libertarian movement.

lawhawk Tue, May 19, 2009 11:21:36am

re: #9 Gang of One

Anti-vaxxers are across the political spectrum, and aren't just GOPers. McCarthy and her friends are Democrats.

Troofers are across the political spectrum as well. Heck, one of the numbnuts running for Governor in NJ (not Corzine) on the Democrat ticket is a troofer.

The one area where the GOP seems to be on its own is the ID/creationist crowd. And it's that connection that will make it difficult for the party to gain a following outside the South and West. A party pursuing anti-science agenda isn't going to end well.

Might want to ask WWRD, but there's no Reagan in sight and the party leaders (or at least the loudmouths) want to go down this route.

John Neverbend Tue, May 19, 2009 11:21:54am

re: #15 Jimmah

Great stuff! Not only a refutation of evolution, but also embryological development too! I guess some folks really aren't kidding when they talk about the miracle of birth eh?

It's a conflation of evolution and physics, a sort of neo-Boltzmannian Darwinism.

davesax Tue, May 19, 2009 11:22:04am

Charles:

I went out with two friends the other night...liberals...who dig Ron Paul, too.

This guy is good at propaganda. He's dangerous.

Keep up the coverage, man.

phillies2008 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:22:31am

It may be time for a Center-Right third party.

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:22:44am

The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being* is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of ... in essence, destruction.

Tiny bubbles ... o'er the hair
sayin' I'm clueless ... floating there

/apologies to Don Ho

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:23:18am

I will repeat this here. This morning, Rush, talking about the new lemur monkey fossil said that it is bullshit, it doesn't prove anything and that you can't use evolution to disprove creation. This is the "head of the GOP" (as per his own words) folks, and he speaks to millions everyday. I didn't know he was a scientist?

The party is ruined.

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 11:23:33am

re: #23 phillies2008

It may be time for a Center-Right third party.

Can we name it The Sane Party?

Joel Tue, May 19, 2009 11:23:58am

i despise the preening Miss Lindsey Graham.

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:09am

re: #26 Erik The Red

Can we name it The Sane Party?

Don't do that... I would have to be excluded!

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:13am

If I were a Democrat, I'd probably be ROTFLMAO as the Elephants disintegrate. But maybe this is needed -- let the nutters be identified so that the rational elements within the party can quarantine and then delete the corrupted files.

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:38am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

I will repeat this here. This morning, Rush, talking about the new lemur monkey fossil said that it is bullshit, it doesn't prove anything and that you can't use evolution to disprove creation. This is the "head of the GOP" (as per his own words) folks, and he speaks to millions everyday. I didn't know he was a scientist?

The party is ruined.

100 down and counting/// Not to many left :(

ArchangelMichael Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:45am

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm hoping the same thing too. I'm also hoping he's really studying up on the fiscal conservatism. I heard Giuliani on MobyNews recently ranting about Obama spending us into oblivion. Maybe after this complete implosion, the ronpaulgasm, and 4 years of Marxism, Mitt and/or Rudy might be more acceptable to the right.

Joel Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:53am

What did Ron Paul get - 1% of the GOP primary vote?

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:25:08am

re: #20 lawhawk

Anti-vaxxers are across the political spectrum, and aren't just GOPers. McCarthy and her friends are Democrats.

Troofers are across the political spectrum as well. Heck, one of the numbnuts running for Governor in NJ (not Corzine) on the Democrat ticket is a troofer.

The one area where the GOP seems to be on its own is the ID/creationist crowd. And it's that connection that will make it difficult for the party to gain a following outside the South and West. A party pursuing anti-science agenda isn't going to end well.

Might want to ask WWRD, but there's no Reagan in sight and the party leaders (or at least the loudmouths) want to go down this route.

Aye. Point taken lawhawk, point taken.

researchok Tue, May 19, 2009 11:25:33am

There are some things that cannot be fixed, no matter how much we might wish that were not so.

The Republican Party is rapidly approaching that point.

subsailor68 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:25:39am

To carry over from the previous thread, we have the Polio vaccine, for which I am profoundly grateful.

If someone could discover a Paulio vaccine, I would also be profoundly grateful.

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:25:44am

re: #29 Gang of One

If I were a Democrat, I'd probably be ROTFLMAO as the Elephants disintegrate. But maybe this is needed -- let the nutters be identified so that the rational elements within the party can quarantine and then delete the corrupted files.

Ain't gonna happen. It's apparent that the majority of the movers and the shakers of the party believe in these ways. Who's left with any note?

Miss Molly Tue, May 19, 2009 11:26:21am

Should Ron Paul be the leader of the Republican Party I will be out the door to the Independent ranks. How long are the Republicans going to wallow in the weeds until someone gets some common sense?

greygandalf Tue, May 19, 2009 11:26:25am

The implicit support for Paul is not good. However, I do think libertarian ideas are needed in the republican party. This seems a step in that direction.

ilzito guacamolito Tue, May 19, 2009 11:26:38am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

I will repeat this here. This morning, Rush, talking about the new lemur monkey fossil said that it is bullshit, it doesn't prove anything and that you can't use evolution to disprove creation. This is the "head of the GOP" (as per his own words) folks, and he speaks to millions everyday. I didn't know he was a scientist?

The party is ruined.

I don't think he has said that. I think he just reiterates what the MSM says they think he is.
As for him being a creationist, enough said.

Kenneth Tue, May 19, 2009 11:26:40am

Lindsey Graham & John McCain were two of the earliest supporters of General Petraeus and his surge strategy in Iraq. Graham & McCain were instrumental in convincing Bush & Cheney to drop Rumsfield's losing strategy and pick up Petraeus. The rest is history.

Say whatever you like about them, call them RINOS or sell-outs. But when almost everybody else, left or right, were wrong, Graham & McCain were right and they helped prevent an unparalleled disaster.

Think about it.

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 11:26:45am

re: #32 Joel

What did Ron Paul get - 1% of the GOP primary vote?

According to KT and the MFM it was closer to 90%.

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 11:27:17am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

By his own statements, Limbaugh isn't a Republican. He's a self-professed conservative. He's a very skilled entertainer. He plays to his audience well. He's not right about every issue. He's correct that you can't use evolution to disprove G-d. You also can't use theology to disprove evolution. Is that stalemate, or, more likely, apples and oranges?

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 11:27:26am

I heard far more applaud him when he jumped on RP for saying the war is illegal than I heard shout and applaude the RPian who said "yes, he is".

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:27:51am

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

Ain't gonna happen. It's apparent that the majority of the movers and the shakers of the party believe in these ways. Who's left with any note?

I don't know, Walt. None come to mind. Perhaps someone unknown and untainted?

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:27:51am

re: #30 Erik The Red

100 down and counting/// Not to many left :(

Yep, and Rush is the best thing since sliced bread, as far as a lot of conservatives are concerned.

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 11:28:21am

South Carolina with its eight electoral votes is not the heart of the GOP.

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 11:28:39am

re: #41 Erik The Red

According to KT and the MFM it was closer to 90%.

Geeze, to hear KT tell it, you'd think that (and I do like KT). However, it does seem as if the Paulians are feeling their oats right now.

S'latch Tue, May 19, 2009 11:28:52am

The weeds? Nearer to the grass roots?

jimmyk Tue, May 19, 2009 11:28:52am

I am not pro-creationism and think it should not be taught in public schools. But this obsession with the issue seems bizarre to me, as is the incessant GOP-bashing over it. There are so many more important issues, this does not make even the top 10. Give it a break already. I would happily vote for a creationist who shared my views on national security and the economy, whereas I wouldn't think of voting for someone with Obamaesque views on the latter two issues no matter how pure his anti-creationism.

iLikeCandy Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:05am

I don't know if the party is running off the rails, but some of its "leaders" certainly are. In fact, that seems to be happening with both parties.

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:13am

re: #40 Kenneth

Graham and McCain were correct about Iraq, and wrong about immigration. And hence, they flounder.

ryannon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:22am

"This has been a snapshot of a party going completely off the rails and into the weeds."

And you read it here first.

It's been building up to this for months and Charles was certainly among the first (for which he caught and still catches hell) to point out that the Emperor is wandering around in a jester's suit.

And that there is nothing funny about that at all.

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:24am

re: #9 Gang of One

Anti-vaxers, Paulians, Troofers, jihadis, creationists, IDers ... they are all coming out from under their rocks ... is this the begining of the end?
/just askin'

It's further evidence of what Charles keeps pointing out - there's bad craziness loose, and it keeps snowballing. It feeds on itself. So much craziness is out there that only fractions of us can confront each piece of it.

Worse, the bad craziness is contributing to a critical loss of rationality. People believe things they read in the most casual of contexts, because the craziness is becoming the norm.

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:32am

re: #35 subsailor68

...
If someone could discover a Paulio vaccine, I would also be profoundly grateful.

That would be a vaccine against stupidity, which I don't think we'll see anytime soon.

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:40am

re: #39 ilzito guacamolito

I don't think he has said that. I think he just reiterates what the MSM says they think he is.
As for him being a creationist, enough said.

Fine, address his remark about the fossil. Scientist Rush. That's the real issue here. He's making statements he know NOTHING about, with in 24 hours of this discovery being announced to the general public.

Miss Molly Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:46am

I thought South Carolina voted for Ombama in the election -- so this may be a Southern State now in the Dems column.

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:55am

This goes out to RP and his supporters.

Youtube Video

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:30:15am

Personally, my original thought was that people wanted Ron Paul to be president because he wanted to legalize marijuana. Then I thought about it a bit longer, and realized that most of those people probably would've forgotten who he was or where he was speaking... or perhaps they were too lazy to clean off the cheetos stains and leave their parents' basement.

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 11:30:16am

I think I have a solution. Let Ron Paul do the big flounce-off from the Republican Party. He can form a third party and take all of his supporters with him. The whole lot of them could meet at, say, Dodger Stadium (seating capacity 56,000).

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:30:24am

re: #49 jimmyk

Then if you don't like the way the host (Charles) runs this blog, go somewhere else.

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:30:57am

re: #39 ilzito guacamolito

I don't think he has said that. I think he just reiterates what the MSM says they think he is.
As for him being a creationist, enough said.

I heard him call the lemur fossil "a little monkey" and also call it "B.S."

eon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:31:08am

The GOP's leadership is increasingly beginning to resemble Oscar Wilde's definition of a foxhunt; the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible.

Or at least the leadership of the Democrats, which I define as the incomprehensible in pursuit of the unbearable.

Actually, the latter works both ways, with both lots.

/In each case, it's difficult to decide whether their egotism is more worrisome than their ignorance, or vice versa.

cheers

eon

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 11:31:20am

Wow, that was a stunningly ignorant statement indeed. One of the truly amazing things about the evolution of life on earth is that it really does fly in the face of the entropy laws of thermodynamics. It is analogous to a little eddy moving upstream in a roaring current. Mind boggling.

DaddyG Tue, May 19, 2009 11:31:20am

re: #46 MandyManners

South Carolina with its eight electoral votes is not the heart of the GOP.

From what the MSM pundits tell the primary winner is decided by who chooses to speak at Jones University.

lawhawk Tue, May 19, 2009 11:32:06am

re: #41 Erik The Red

KT doesn't believe that to be the case - KT has been consistent in pointing out that Paul's reach is far greater than someone of his ilk has any business getting. He's got a mobilized base and rabid committed following (which should be treated as such - rabid, and needing commitment).

Miss Molly Tue, May 19, 2009 11:32:29am

Now that I think about it, neither the Democrats or the Republicans have anyone of real leadership abilities at the moment. We seem to be in a wasteland where leadership is concerned. It may take a decade to produce some real leadership in both parties.

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:32:34am

re: #42 quickjustice

But, in this case, I really think Limbaugh crossed the line. His statement was ignorant and foolish.

drcordell Tue, May 19, 2009 11:33:07am

It looks like it's going to get worse before it gets better unfortunately. The only hope might be that the GOP becomes so beholden to the religious-right creationist nuts that it forces the creation of a breakoff center-right party. Which I for one would embrace.

The sooner we can get blathering idiots like Hannity, Limbaugh and Beck out of the mainstream on the right, the sooner we can attempt to get a legitimate political discourse going in this nation. When the battle over substantive policy issues is between Obama or a bunch of high-school dropout sycophants ranting about William Ayers, who do you think is going to win?

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 11:33:13am

If RP is the head of the GOP, then high time to drive a stake in, cut off the head, and just bury whats left.

researchok Tue, May 19, 2009 11:33:17am

re: #49 jimmyk

I am not pro-creationism and think it should not be taught in public schools. But this obsession with the issue seems bizarre to me, as is the incessant GOP-bashing over it. There are so many more important issues, this does not make even the top 10. Give it a break already. I would happily vote for a creationist who shared my views on national security and the economy, whereas I wouldn't think of voting for someone with Obamaesque views on the latter two issues no matter how pure his anti-creationism.

A political party cannot be taken seriously if it tolerates and admits as equals fools, racists and bigots (I'm speaking of the Ron Paul people).

Further, a political party cannot embrace the voodoo of creationism because that may buy a few votes.

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:33:21am

re: #61 Dianna

I heard him call the lemur fossil "a little monkey" and also call it "B.S."

Thank you for confirming that for me. I can't even call the lemur bullshit, why, because I'm not a scientist. So, what the heck does he think makes him the expert?

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 11:33:41am

re: #49 jimmyk

Creationism is part of the problem with the GOP right now and its ability to attract people to the parts that matter such as fiscal responsibility and individual liberty. How can we attract smart people, educated people, scientists, engineers, etcetera, if we continue to let these ID/YEC kooks take control of the party for their own socon reasons? Odd that we call social conservatives "socons" when you think of it. They are into "socon" of another type, social control.

These kooks that espouse YEC are a major problem.

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 11:33:52am

Speaking of science:

I'm been reading about the "crack" of the RFID chip in MiFare cards. This is such huge news that has gotten so little coverage!

Basically, these wireless "smart cards" that allow for public transit payment (such as the "Oyster Card" on the London Tube and the "TransLink Card" in the San Francisco area) -- as well as being used for wireless card-door opening, hotel-room cards, debit cards, and all sorts of uses all over the world -- have been successfully hacked by a European research team. After the card manufacturer sued to suppress publication of the hack, they lost in court, and it was published a few months ago.

While this all may seem obtuse, it has major implications. These cards are already a vast installed user base all over the world, and now, with a little know-how, people can basically add an infinitude of cash value to their cards, and also make cards to open random car doors, and also access any secure building, or hotel room, and so on and so on.

I'm torn. I know someone who has experience in hacking smart cards and has the equipment (he hacked satellite TV cards), and through him I probably have the option of, shall we say, taking advantage of the situation. Then again, the little angel on my other shoulder says to be a good little zombie.

Hmmmmmmm.

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:34:08am

re: #49 jimmyk

I seems bizzare to me too, when looking at creationism itself, and only creationism.

The problem is that many are trying, loudly and actively, to politicize it. In a metaphor, they're waving it like a flag, trying to take the lead in the political parade.

THAT's what to fight, not the existence of creationism per se.

Eowyn2 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:34:12am

question

Will it be more difficult to rebuild the republican party with strong values, strong fiscal policies and a strong military or will it be more difficult to start a "State of Sanity" third party?

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 11:34:17am

re: #49 jimmyk

Give it a break already.

No.

gmsc Tue, May 19, 2009 11:34:19am

re: #42 quickjustice

By his own statements, Limbaugh isn't a Republican. He's a self-professed conservative. He's a very skilled entertainer. He plays to his audience well. He's not right about every issue. He's correct that you can't use evolution to disprove G-d. You also can't use theology to disprove evolution. Is that stalemate, or, more likely, apples and oranges?

No, it's not a stalemate. It's not up to evolution or science to disprove G-d's existence. Religion is the one making the extraordinary claim, so the burden of proof is upon them.

Read Carl Sagan's The Dragon In My Garage and James Sedgwick's Right, Wrong, and Meaningless.

drcordell Tue, May 19, 2009 11:34:44am

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Walter, there is your fundamental mistake right there. You clearly have a sense of humility.

Eowyn2 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:35:08am

re: #42 quickjustice

By his own statements, Limbaugh isn't a Republican. He's a self-professed conservative. He's a very skilled entertainer. He plays to his audience well. He's not right about every issue. He's correct that you can't use evolution to disprove G-d. You also can't use theology to disprove evolution. Is that stalemate, or, more likely, apples and oranges?

Apples and Bananas

eon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:35:35am

Have to run. Later, Lizards.

cheers

eon

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 11:35:41am

re: #57 MandyManners

Just as apropos, and a lot easier to listen to:

Youtube Video

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 11:35:50am

re: #49 jimmyk

So you want an American theocracy and Christian Shari'a? 'Cuz that is what you'd be getting.

DaddyG Tue, May 19, 2009 11:35:54am

re: #49 jimmyk
If the GOP would drop fostering a particular religion in schools and get back to limiting government and promoting individual rights I daresay you would see fewer threads on the subject.

KingKenrod Tue, May 19, 2009 11:35:57am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

I will repeat this here. This morning, Rush, talking about the new lemur monkey fossil said that it is bullshit, it doesn't prove anything and that you can't use evolution to disprove creation. This is the "head of the GOP" (as per his own words) folks, and he speaks to millions everyday. I didn't know he was a scientist?

The party is ruined.

Your idealized fantasy party is ruined, the one where only people with rational beliefs are tolerated, but it never really existed anyway. The religious right has been a large part of ever GOP governing coalition. There's a surge in the visibility of these zealots, just like there was in 1992 when Clinton won, but they will wane eventually.

Truck Monkey Tue, May 19, 2009 11:36:11am

re: #24 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Tiny bubbles ... o'er the hair
sayin' I'm clueless ... floating there

/apologies to Don Ho

He's dead Jim.

S'latch Tue, May 19, 2009 11:36:13am

Republicans would be wise to stop taking shots at each other. Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment (Thou shalt not criticize a fellow Republican.) seems wise right now. I am not saying that the Republicans shouldn't be criticized where it is due. But it is not politically wise for them to be public self-critics and in-fighters.

greygandalf Tue, May 19, 2009 11:36:25am

This is Charles blog. If he wants it to go creationist articles only, its his choice.

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:36:46am

re: #49 jimmyk

I am not pro-creationism and think it should not be taught in public schools. But this obsession with the issue seems bizarre to me, as is the incessant GOP-bashing over it. There are so many more important issues, this does not make even the top 10. Give it a break already. I would happily vote for a creationist who shared my views on national security and the economy, whereas I wouldn't think of voting for someone with Obamaesque views on the latter two issues no matter how pure his anti-creationism.

Jimmyk, the whole creationist/evolutionism controversy is part and parcel to the culture war coming to a head. It is one of those issues that, even if you don't see it as being an 'important issue', is becoming a polarizing issues for a vast number of voters. Charles is IMHO doing us a great service by keeping us abreast of all the loony-tunes non-sense this is surrounded by.
However, YMMV.

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 11:37:01am

re: #49 jimmyk

You've not been paying attention, then.

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 11:37:58am

The Republican Party should be paying Charles Johnson a huge salary as a strategic consultant, because I believe in the long run it will be Charles and the few big blogger standing alongside him who will save the Republican Party from becoming a fringe joke party.

HypnoToad Tue, May 19, 2009 11:38:28am

Creationists, anti-vacciners, the whole anti science crowd, are driven by fear. Society, the world, the universe, are too complex for many to understand or even want to try to understand. Believing in a simpler reality eliminates that difficult and time consuming learning necessary to accept what is. Denial in the face of an unacceptable reality is a powerful motivator for the willfully ignorant.

People need a simple comprehensible universe made by a God understandable by their limited comprehension. They are working
in great desperation to pull the blinds shut and get the rest of us to ignore what is beyond them.

Spartacus50 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:38:37am

Lindsey Graham is one of the most despicable members of the Republican Party, based simply upon his membership in the "Gang of 14" and his unwavering support for McCain/Feingold. Unfortunately, Paulians are the only ones taking him to task. Neither he nor ron paul represent me as a Republican.

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:38:40am

re: #78 drcordell

Walter, there is your fundamental mistake right there. You clearly have a sense of humility.

I see it more as a sense of reality, but thank you for the compliment. You are so new, little one, me humble? Thanks anyway :)

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #71 Walter L. Newton

Thank you for confirming that for me. I can't even call the lemur bullshit, why, because I'm not a scientist. So, what the heck does he think makes him the expert?

He has a microphone. He believes no "missing link" will ever be found, and doesn't hesitate to trumpet his views. And that he's never gone to college. And that he's not a scientist....

It doesn't matter to me - at some level, I assume that he knows he's just blowing hot air. But he didn't read the whole article, and he doesn't understand how interesting this is, because he's so busy dismissing the damned thing.

DaddyG Tue, May 19, 2009 11:39:09am

re: #73 zombie Don't worry about your plastic money Zombie. The One will have the economy running so efficiently we will be bartering zucchini for bio-diesel before long.

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 11:39:15am

re: #63 turn

One of the truly amazing things about the evolution of life on earth is that it really does fly in the face of the entropy laws of thermodynamics.

No, it doesn't. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

The earth is not an isolated system. See that big shiny thing up there in the sky, called the sun? It's constantly bathing the earth in energy. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the earth's ecology.

The Shadow Do Tue, May 19, 2009 11:39:21am

I respect Lindsey Graham. When the chips are down he is a clear voice of reason in almost every circumstance. This obviously means I will have to stop all this stupid voting for Republicans. I just don't measure up to the high standards set by the true conservative pathfinders.

gmsc Tue, May 19, 2009 11:39:31am

OT: Ewwww . . .

Quizno's new ad campaign is called "2 girls, 1 sub". Well, I'm definitely giving all my sandwich business to Subway from now on.

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:40:00am

re: #84 KingKenrod

Your idealized fantasy party is ruined, the one where only people with rational beliefs are tolerated, but it never really existed anyway. The religious right has been a large part of ever GOP governing coalition. There's a surge in the visibility of these zealots, just like there was in 1992 when Clinton won, but they will wane eventually.

I know that. I'm being rhetorical, just trying to find clever ways to say the same things over and over. It gets boring after a while.

100

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 11:40:46am

re: #96 Charles

No, it doesn't. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

The earth is not an isolated system. See that big shiny thing up there in the sky, called the sun? It's constantly bathing the earth in energy. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the earth's ecology.

Game, set, match.

Nice smackdown. ;)

101

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 11:41:27am

re: #98 gmsc

OT: Ewwww . . .

Quizno's new ad campaign is called "2 girls, 1 sub". Well, I'm definitely giving all my sandwich business to Subway from now on.

Not the association I want when buying a sub, a shit sandwich so to speak.

102

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 11:41:46am

re: #78 drcordell

Walter, there is your fundamental mistake right there. You clearly have a sense of humility.

Walter and humility in the same sentence? Something wrong there. :)

103

gmsc Tue, May 19, 2009 11:42:22am

re: #101 avanti

Not the association I want when buying a sub, a shit sandwich so to speak.

Exactly.

104

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 11:42:30am

re: #95 DaddyG

Don't worry about your plastic money Zombie. The One will have the economy running so efficiently we will be bartering zucchini for bio-diesel before long.

Zucchini is biodiesel. Soon, the government will publish instructions for how to build a fermentation still to turn backyard vegetables into fuel.

"When the crop comes in, Mabel, we can make enough gas to drive down to the general store to get winter supplies!"

105

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 11:42:30am

re: #98 gmsc

OT: Ewwww . . .

Quizno's new ad campaign is called "2 girls, 1 sub". Well, I'm definitely giving all my sandwich business to Subway from now on.

Why, why, WHY, would they think this was a good ad idea? Wow.
Subway for me too!

106

J.S. Tue, May 19, 2009 11:42:32am

re: #73 zombie

BBC World News (it's technology program) did a feature on this last year...

107

KingKenrod Tue, May 19, 2009 11:43:38am

re: #49 jimmyk

I am not pro-creationism and think it should not be taught in public schools. But this obsession with the issue seems bizarre to me, as is the incessant GOP-bashing over it. There are so many more important issues, this does not make even the top 10. Give it a break already. I would happily vote for a creationist who shared my views on national security and the economy, whereas I wouldn't think of voting for someone with Obamaesque views on the latter two issues no matter how pure his anti-creationism.

You got dinged down pretty hard, but I kind of agree with you. I do think creationists have to be confronted when they try to get that ID nonsense put in the schools. It doesn't matter how big of an issue it is re: winning elections. It's just garbage designed to look like science.

108

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:43:46am

re: #101 avanti

Not the association I want when buying a sub, a shit sandwich so to speak.

Agreed.

109

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 11:44:10am

re: #96 Charles

No, it doesn't. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

The earth is not an isolated system. See that big shiny thing up there in the sky, called the sun? It's constantly bathing the earth in energy. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the earth's ecology.

He just read that crap on a creationist web site, and is not smart enough to recognize it's BS. Chances are, he has no idea about the laws of thermodynamics .

110

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #98 gmsc

OT: Ewwww . . .

Quizno's new ad campaign is called "2 girls, 1 sub". Well, I'm definitely giving all my sandwich business to Subway from now on.

You're not serious! Oh, no!

111

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 11:44:25am

re: #90 zombie

The Republican Party should be paying Charles Johnson a huge salary as a strategic consultant, because I believe in the long run it will be Charles and the few big blogger standing alongside him who will save the Republican Party from becoming a fringe joke party.

And the joke is that Charles is not a Republican.

112

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 11:44:49am

re: #96 Charles

No, it doesn't. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

The earth is not an isolated system. See that big shiny thing up there in the sky, called the sun? It's constantly bathing the earth in energy. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the earth's ecology.

To go further on Charles's point, here's the Talk.Origins Archive on the matter:

2. The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. All of these are seen to happen all the time, so, obviously, no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution (Demetrius 2000).

Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy (McShea 1998). Some see the information content of organisms subject to diversification according to the second law (Brooks and Wiley 1988), so organisms diversify to fill empty niches much as a gas expands to fill an empty container. Others propose that highly ordered complex systems emerge and evolve to dissipate energy (and increase overall entropy) more efficiently (Schneider and Kay 1994).

There are references and further reading there.

113

drcordell Tue, May 19, 2009 11:45:22am

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

Reality, humility, call it what you like. At least you have the wherewithal to realize that an opinion does not equal expertise.

114

gmsc Tue, May 19, 2009 11:45:24am

re: #105 KansasMom

Why, why, WHY, would they think this was a good ad idea? Wow.
Subway for me too!

Well, if they think it's a good idea, I have absolutely no problem with going into a Quizno's and graphically describing the inspiration for the ad while customers are eating and/or in line!

Heh, heh.

115

Eowyn2 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:45:46am

re: #91 HypnoToad

Creationists, anti-vacciners, the whole anti science crowd, are driven by fear. Society, the world, the universe, are too complex for many to understand or even want to try to understand. Believing in a simpler reality eliminates that difficult and time consuming learning necessary to accept what is. Denial in the face of an unacceptable reality is a powerful motivator for the willfully ignorant.

People need a simple comprehensible universe made by a God understandable by their limited comprehension. They are working
in great desperation to pull the blinds shut and get the rest of us to ignore what is beyond them.

Bull pucky. that is the most baseless arguement I have seen for evolution.

116

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 11:46:05am

re: #78 drcordell

Walter, there is your fundamental mistake right there. You clearly have a sense of humility.

Walter? Humility? ROTFLMHWA

I needed a good laugh, thanks. ;)

/ just joking with ya, Walter, you are good peeps.

117

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:46:22am

re: #109 avanti

Excuse me?

You're addressing turn, not some creationist sock puppet.

118

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 11:46:43am

re: #96 Charles

No, it doesn't. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

The earth is not an isolated system. See that big shiny thing up there in the sky, called the sun? It's constantly bathing the earth in energy. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the earth's ecology.

I can't argue with your logic Charles but my sense of wonder remains. Life continues to get more and more organized as time goes on, which seems to me to run counter to the second law closed system or not. Thanks for correcting me though.

119

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:46:52am

re: #102 Erik The Red

Walter and humility in the same sentence? Something wrong there. :)

You got that right!

120

gmsc Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:14am

re: #110 Dianna

You're not serious! Oh, no!

I wish I weren't. If Subway was clever, they'd start a campaign suggesting people go into Quizno's and talk about the basis of the ad . . . in detail!

121

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:27am

re: #94 Dianna

It doesn't matter to me - at some level, I assume that he knows he's just blowing hot air. But he didn't read the whole article, and he doesn't understand how interesting this is, because he's so busy dismissing the damned thing.

I don't think he does know he's blowing hot air. I believe he thinks atheists are a danger to the USA, and science is their propaganda. He's a big Ben Stein fan. He won't examine what he believes.

122

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:31am

re: #100 FurryOldGuyJeans

ouch!

123

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:35am

re: #110 Dianna

You're not serious! Oh, no!

Whatever happened to 5 girls and one sub?!

/I'd rather live in the ambiance of that past

124

J.S. Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:54am

re: #73 zombie

BBC News World, Program "Click", look for "10 October" 2008...on the hack...here...

125

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 11:48:00am

re: #67 Dianna

I'm a fan of Limbaugh's, but I've caught him in a few whoppers. He touted Jeannine Pirro as N.Y. governor based upon gossip he picked up while cruising on a yacht with some of here pals. Pirro was a disastrous candidate. Rush was wrong about her. He shoots from the hip at times, which is what he's done here. His bad.

126

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 11:48:04am

re: #118 turn

I can't argue with your logic Charles but my sense of wonder remains. Life continues to get more and more organized as time goes on, which seems to me to run counter to the second law closed system or not. Thanks for correcting me though.

I appreciate your sense of wonder, but evolution absolutely does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics. You can't say, "closed system or not" -- a closed system is the whole point of the second law.

127

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 11:48:17am

re: #118 turn

I can't argue with your logic Charles but my sense of wonder remains. Life continues to get more and more organized as time goes on, which seems to me to run counter to the second law closed system or not. Thanks for correcting me though.

Jeez, my life seems to get more chaotic the older I get.

128

DaddyG Tue, May 19, 2009 11:48:22am

re: #118 turn

Life continues to get more and more organized as time goes on...

You obviously haven't spent time with my family. /

I agree that there is something miraculous about the evolutionary process, and I don't think science and God are mutually exclusive.

129

Spartacus50 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:48:48am

re: #97 The Shadow Do

I respect Lindsey Graham. When the chips are down he is a clear voice of reason in almost every circumstance. This obviously means I will have to stop all this stupid voting for Republicans. I just don't measure up to the high standards set by the true conservative pathfinders.

Lindsey Graham has never been anything but the epitome of political opportunism. He pushed through legislation (CFR) which is in direct contradiction to the First Amendment because he felt he needed to buddy up to McCain.
He and others like him are the reason the Republicans are out of power. Just a more luke-warm version of socialism.

130

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 11:48:56am

re: #20 lawhawk

We need Zombie Reagan!

131

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 11:49:01am

re: #115 Eowyn2

Bull pucky. that is the most baseless arguement I have seen for evolution.

That is not an argument for evolution.
It is an explanation for young earth creationism and any other beliefs which run contrary to proven scientific facts.

132

Eowyn2 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:49:14am

re: #104 zombie

Zucchini is biodiesel. Soon, the government will publish instructions for how to build a fermentation still to turn backyard vegetables into fuel.

"When the crop comes in, Mabel, we can make enough gas to drive down to the general store to get winter supplies!"

There are a few of those out and about.

133

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 11:49:26am

re: #117 Dianna

Excuse me?

You're addressing turn, not some creationist sock puppet.

I thought I was commenting on the idiot claiming the second law disproved evolution and agreeing he's a fruit cake. Sorry for the confusion.

134

jimmyk Tue, May 19, 2009 11:49:56am

re: #88 Gang of One

Jimmyk, the whole creationist/evolutionism controversy is part and parcel to the culture war coming to a head. It is one of those issues that, even if you don't see it as being an 'important issue', is becoming a polarizing issues for a vast number of voters.

I'd just much rather see the culture war recede--on both sides. I'm no longer sure which side is fanning the flames. There's a fine line between exposing and feeding oxygen. I'd like the GOP to focus on economics and national security and get away from the social issues, but I can't escape the feeling that both the "moderates" and the extremists won't let them. I don't want views on creationism to become the new litmus test.

135

ArchangelMichael Tue, May 19, 2009 11:50:32am

re: #96 Charles

I love it when 'they' try that argument. My answer to it is "it's not even wrong."

In the real world, the only truly closed system is the entire universe as a whole.

136

researchok Tue, May 19, 2009 11:51:18am

re: #126 Charles

I appreciate your sense of wonder, but evolution absolutely does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics. You can't say, "closed system or not" -- a closed system is the whole point of the second law.

So if you don't understand evolution or the fundamental laws of science, that somehow qualifies you to be an advocate for creationism.

Just shoot me.

137

Wendya Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:15am

re: #40 Kenneth

Lindsey Graham & John McCain were two of the earliest supporters of General Petraeus and his surge strategy in Iraq. Graham & McCain were instrumental in convincing Bush & Cheney to drop Rumsfield's losing strategy and pick up Petraeus. The rest is history.

Say whatever you like about them, call them RINOS or sell-outs. But when almost everybody else, left or right, were wrong, Graham & McCain were right and they helped prevent an unparalleled disaster.

Think about it.

Lindsey Graham is a political opportunist.

Youtube Video

138

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:15am

re: #133 avanti

Re-read turn's original comment. Further, note that turn thanked Charles for correcting his misapprehension.

139

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:19am

re: #49 jimmyk

... this obsession with the issue seems bizarre to me ...

As for this insulting comment, current subjects on the LGF front page include:

Ron Paul support at SC GOP convention
Measles outbreak in Wales
Saddam's torture chamber
Open letter to Oprah
DeNuke Iran
Steele on 'centrists'
The space shuttle's mission to repair the Hubble
The meeting of Obama and Netanyahu
A music video of the Finn Brothers
Maureen Dowd's plagiarism
Downgrading Flash 10
An Onion comedy video
Tamil Tigers defeated
Obama at Notre Dame
Palestinian Nakba propaganda
Women win election in Kuwait
Cynthia McKinney at UC Irvine
Huntsman as China ambassador
High speed video of a hummingbird

... and ... two posts about creationism, not counting this one which is more about Ron Paul.

Oh yeah, I'm terribly obsessed.

140

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:20am

re: #118 turn

I can't argue with your logic Charles but my sense of wonder remains. Life continues to get more and more organized as time goes on, which seems to me to run counter to the second law closed system or not. Thanks for correcting me though.

It may seem counter, Turn, but it is not. See my #112.

141

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:24am

142

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:26am

re: #135 ArchangelMichael

I love it when 'they' try that argument. My answer to it is "it's not even wrong."

In the real world, the only truly closed system is the entire universe as a whole.

A tempest in a teacup is a closed system.

/*grin* ... almost by definition

143

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:56am

re: #126 Charles

I appreciate your sense of wonder, but evolution absolutely does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics. You can't say, "closed system or not" -- a closed system is the whole point of the second law.

But the laws of thermodynamics are tools of the devil!

/well they did make for some damned difficult courses in college

144

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 11:53:07am

re: #136 researchok

So if you don't understand evolution or the fundamental laws of science, that somehow qualifies you to be an advocate for creationism.

Just shoot me.

Where does Charles say that?

145

Eowyn2 Tue, May 19, 2009 11:53:30am

re: #131 Spare O'Lake

no it isn't. Insulting people is not an arguement.

146

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 11:53:31am

re: #77 gmsc

It's not as abstract as "religion". There are creationists, who are religious. There are other religious people who aren't creationists. I'm among them. In short, strict Aristotelian reasoning doesn't work under these circumstances.

147

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 11:54:07am

re: #134 jimmyk

I'd like the GOP to focus on economics and national security and get away from the social issues,

That would require an end to pushing religion into schools.

I don't want views on creationism to become the new litmus test.

It's not a "litmus test." It's finding out what a politician wants to do with their power once the voters give it to them. I would reject any candidate who wants to put religion in public schools.

148

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:54:16am

re: #136 researchok

So if you don't understand evolution or the fundamental laws of science, that somehow qualifies you to be an advocate for creationism.

Just shoot me.

That one's definitely a candidate for my proposed "What?!" button.

We could have the silhouette of a parrot, in honor of Walter's Maisey.

149

gmsc Tue, May 19, 2009 11:54:42am

re: #146 quickjustice

It's not as abstract as "religion". There are creationists, who are religious. There are other religious people who aren't creationists. I'm among them. In short, strict Aristotelian reasoning doesn't work under these circumstances.

That's OK. The essays cover any belief with extraordinary claims just as well as religion.

150

miclaine Tue, May 19, 2009 11:54:55am

So what is a moderate, evolutionist, fiscal conservative, borderline libertarian, lizard to do?

151

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 11:55:13am

re: #118 turn

I can't argue with your logic Charles but my sense of wonder remains. Life continues to get more and more organized as time goes on, which seems to me to run counter to the second law closed system or not. Thanks for correcting me though.

If evolution runs counter to the second law of thermodynamics, then the development of the foetus in the womb is an even more blatant defiance of this law. That should clue you in to the fact that the second law is not counter to either.

152

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 11:55:56am

re: #139 Charles

One comment - he may be noting more of KT's comments about creationism, and about the Paulians.

153

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 11:56:09am

re: #138 Dianna

Re-read turn's original comment. Further, note that turn thanked Charles for correcting his misapprehension.

Again, sorry for the confusion. In summation, the second law of thermodynamics does not disprove evolution, even if that is suggested by some creationists.

154

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:56:17am

re: #141 buzzsawmonkey

There was no context problems here, he called the fossil bullshit. He dismissed evolution and the fossil, what ever the whole science that is wrapped up in this find, he dismissed it in 4 sentences. And that was the end of it.

There was no nuance, no deep statements, nothing but blatant dismissal of the whole thing.

Rush is not our friend.

155

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:56:18am

re: #139 Charles

As for this insulting comment, current subjects on the LGF front page:

Ron Paul support at SC GOP convention
Measles outbreak in Wales
Saddam's torture chamber
Open letter to Oprah
DeNuke Iran
Steele on 'centrists'
The space shuttle's mission to repair the Hubble
The meeting of Obama and Netanyahu
A music video of the Finn Brothers
Maureen Dowd's plagiarism
Downgrading Flash 10
An Onion comedy video
Tamil Tigers defeated
Obama at Notre Dame
Palestinian Nakba propaganda
Women win election in Kuwait
Cynthia McKinney at UC Irvine
Huntsman as China ambassador
High speed video of a hummingbird

... and ... two posts about creationism, not counting this one which is more about Ron Paul.

Oh yeah, I'm terribly obsessed.

Looks like an indication of being scatterbrained.

/teasing

156

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 11:56:19am

re: #135 ArchangelMichael

I love it when 'they' try that argument. My answer to it is "it's not even wrong."

In the real world, the only truly closed system is the entire universe as a whole.

What little reading I have done regarding the latest findings/thinking regarding Quantum Physics makes even the idea of the universe being a closed system less than likely. Particles appearing and disappearing out of nowhere, and such. Quarks, transfer particles, strings.

The more science discovers the complexity of reality and the underlying order the more I am dumbfounded of just how foolish and lazy the anti-science folks are.

157

Gang of One Tue, May 19, 2009 11:56:20am

re: #134 jimmyk

I'd just much rather see the culture war recede--on both sides. I'm no longer sure which side is fanning the flames. There's a fine line between exposing and feeding oxygen. I'd like the GOP to focus on economics and national security and get away from the social issues, but I can't escape the feeling that both the "moderates" and the extremists won't let them. I don't want views on creationism to become the new litmus test.

Unfortunately, as I see it, the culture war is an extension of the whole Marxist dialectic -- the have vs. the have nots, the victims vs. the oppresors ... this is how the narrative is unfolding, or rather, this is what the narrative set in motion -- gray areas are becoming unfashionable, it aeems. Absolutism as a result of events and circumstances forcing people to make choices. Whether or not creationism becomes the litmus test remains to be seen. But there will be a litmus test for all, I reckon, and I can't predict what it will be.

158

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 11:56:23am

re: #150 miclaine

So what is a moderate, evolutionist, fiscal conservative, borderline libertarian, lizard to do?

Cry.

159

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 11:56:44am

re: #109 avanti

He just read that crap on a creationist web site, and is not smart enough to recognize it's BS. Chances are, he has no idea about the laws of thermodynamics .

Hey avanti, I'm not a creationist guy and I have studied thermodynamics. Charles was correct in his critique of my statement. The fact that life gets more and more organized in the midst of all the cosmic chaos still amazes me. You might notice I used the very unscientific term "flies in the face" which I meant as appears to be at odds with. Charles picked up on that being very unscientific and corrected me.

160

drcordell Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:01am

re: #125 quickjustice

I'm a fan of Limbaugh's, but I've caught him in a few whoppers.

That's the understatement of the century. The guy is a fucking hypocrite and there are no ifs ands or buts about it. Carrying the torch of the culture wars as a thrice-divorced recovering oxycontin addict is pure insanity. He accomplishes nothing but make every GOP position on social issues look like a complete farce.

161

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:16am

The "entropy argument" against evolution is so fundamentally ignorant it isn't even worth debunking. The people making it have no idea what entropy even is. Saying that evolution can't happen because entropy exists is the same thing as saying that birds can't fly because gravity exists.

First of all, entropy only applies to a closed system on average. Even within a completely closed system settling inevitably toward entropy, there almost always will be variations in energy density, meaning that in some localities, energy increases, even while overall things are evening out.

See every star in the night sky? That is a ball of energy surrounded by a vast void of energylessness. Each star proves that localized concentrations of energy can increase, even while the system overall is slowly succumbing to entropy. Every star disproves the creationists' "entropy argument."

But most importantly, as Charles accurately pointed out, the earth is NOT a closed system, since we get an immense amount of sunlight pouring into our ecosystem every second of every day.

I'm so sick of the creationists' idiotic, endlessly debunked brain-damaged pseudo-arguments that I simply refuse to engage with them any more, on any level. I'd rather talk with a fossilized lemur than a creationist.

162

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:16am

re: #150 miclaine

So what is a moderate, evolutionist, fiscal conservative, borderline libertarian, lizard to do?

That's an interesting question. What would you suggest?

163

miclaine Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:26am

Rush - the white, male oprah!

164

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:37am

re: #124 J.S.

BBC News World, Program "Click", look for "10 October" 2008...on the hack...here...

Thanks!

165

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:50am

166

gmsc Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:57am

Time for my standard list of favorite ID/Creationist argument links:

reDiscovery Institute (Parody site)

The Holy Book for Turtles-all-the-way-downism (Thanks, jcm!)

Using creationist/ID arguments against them:
Why We Believe in a Designer!
Organisms that Look Designed
Oolon Colluphid's Guide to Creation

Talk.Origins archive

Need To Know: Charles Darwin (5 Minute documentary on Charles Darwin)

People involved in spreading Darwin's discoveries as a philosophy, whom Ben Stein mysteriously neglects to mention:
Ernst Haeckel
William Sumner
Vladmir Ulyanov

Is There An Artifical God? (essay by Douglas Adams)

Get A-Life (essay on using artificial life to study evolution)

Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker (video about a-life)

Documentaries:
The Day The Universe Changed - "Fit To Rule" (Episode 8)

More evolution documentaries can be found here, including Evolution, Evolve, Human Evolution, Journey of Man, Origins and Why do people laugh at creationists?.

167

researchok Tue, May 19, 2009 11:58:00am

re: #144 MandyManners

Charles didn't say that- I did.

It is astonishing to me how so many people, who know so little, can presume to tell others how wrong they are on settled science.

It's Dali-esque.

168

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 11:58:05am

re: #148 Dianna

We could have the silhouette of a parrot, in honor of Walter's Maisey.

Hopefully, we Maisey that someday.

169

The Shadow Do Tue, May 19, 2009 11:58:07am

re: #129 Spartacus50

Lindsey Graham has never been anything but the epitome of political opportunism. He pushed through legislation (CFR) which is in direct contradiction to the First Amendment because he felt he needed to buddy up to McCain.
He and others like him are the reason the Republicans are out of power. Just a more luke-warm version of socialism.

Like I said, Lindsey and I are unclean. Lead the way my man, just don't expect the world to follow.

170

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 11:59:02am

re: #150 miclaine

So what is a moderate, evolutionist, fiscal conservative, borderline libertarian, lizard to do?

Get off your duff and do something.

171

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 11:59:07am

re: #139 Charles

But jimmyk doesn't want to discuss creationism right now. You need place up topics for discussion he's interested in.

172

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 11:59:23am

re: #137 Wendya

Lindsey Graham is a political opportunist.

At least he doesn't have his political head stuck up his ass like the extremist Laupnorians, DIers, YECers and their self-destructive ilk who seem bent on committing political suicide.

173

ArchangelMichael Tue, May 19, 2009 11:59:47am

re: #163 miclaine

Rush - the white, male oprah!

I thought that was Wayne Brady?

174

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 11:59:57am

re: #117 Dianna

Excuse me?

You're addressing turn, not some creationist sock puppet.

Thanks Dianna, ha next time whip out your sword and slice him in two for me. Oh no bad idea, there would then be two avanti

175

J.S. Tue, May 19, 2009 12:00:08pm

re: #164 zombie

You're welcome...

176

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 12:00:21pm

re: #171 unrealizedviewpoint

But jimmyk doesn't want to discuss creationism right now. You need place up topics for discussion he's interested in.

Maybe "How to decorate your parents basement 101"

177

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:00:38pm

This has been a snapshot of a party going completely off the rails and into the weeds.

More like a slo-mo horror film. And you know what's behind the basement door. But do the victims call 911? Nope, they open the door and say, "Who's down here." No answer? Go on down the steps.

178

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:00:49pm

re: #167 researchok

Charles didn't say that- I did.

It is astonishing to me how so many people, who know so little, can presume to tell others how wrong they are on settled science.

It's Dali-esque.

And, Medieval.

Let's go back to leeches!

179

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:01:09pm

re: #174 turn

Thanks Dianna, ha next time whip out your sword and slice him in two for me. Oh no bad idea, there would then be two avanti

HA!

180

HypnoToad Tue, May 19, 2009 12:01:17pm

re: #115 Eowyn2

I'll let the facts speak for evolution. I was commenting on how fear of the unknown (by them) drive many to reject what modern science has shown us. By limiting what they will accept of the reality around us, these people are also limiting the God that they believe created it.

We have only a very limited understanding of the universe that we live in, and therefore only a very limited understanding of its possible creator. The study of science does not deny the existence of God, but it does bring us closer to understanding what he might be.

My favorite quote from J. B. S. Haldane sums up my point:

" the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, its queerer than we can suppose"

181

Kenneth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:01:20pm

re: #126 Charles

The IDers use the thermodynamics canard to pose like scientists, but they get it all wrong. Many chemical compounds involve simpler chemicals reacting together and forming more complex chemicals. There is no violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics involved.

Website on the lemur fossil discovery.

182

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 12:01:23pm

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

Rush is not our friend.

On this issue, that is certainly correct. Next question is, can he be any help anywhere else, or does this make him a destructive kook?

183

Gus Tue, May 19, 2009 12:01:49pm

Information on Youtube member that hosted and possibly taped said videos.

Youtube account: MoreRockin
Myspace: morerockin

Real Name: Matt Jafri

Matt Jafri had a presence on a site named Eyes on the Lies.

Part of his "interests" included anti-Israel news and commentary which can be seen under Corruption/Israel in the Google cached page.

There you will find articles titled by Mr. Jafri such as:

The New Nazis
by MoreRockin on Jan.22, 2009, under Israel

Israeli Soldiers Ordered To Kill Themselves Rather Than Be Captured
by MoreRockin on Jan.26, 2009, under Israel

In addition to Matt Jafri's obsession with "CIA lies" as noted in his Youtube videos other topics shown at the Eyes on the Lies site includes:

Big Brother
Big Business
Globalism
Israel
Mainstream Media
Police State
Secret Societies
US Government

184

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:02:04pm

re: #176 Erik The Red

Maybe "How to decorate your parents basement 101"

How to keep the dust from Cheetohs out of your sock drawer.

185

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:02:31pm

re: #126 Charles

I appreciate your sense of wonder, but evolution absolutely does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics. You can't say, "closed system or not" -- a closed system is the whole point of the second law.

I understand, again thanks. I should have worded my original post differently, but hey you're dealing with turn here. You seem to have studied this quite extensively, my hat's off to you.

186

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 12:02:53pm

re: #184 MandyManners

How to keep the dust from Cheetohs out of your sock drawer.

LMAO

187

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:03:00pm

re: #183 Gus 802

Sounds like a fan of Alex Jones.

188

miclaine Tue, May 19, 2009 12:03:15pm

re: #170 MandyManners

Get off your duff and do something.

I will as soon as I resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, rid Iran of nukes, take care of the taliban in pakistan and afghanistan, solve the global recession, global warming, get my kids through college, take care of my ailing in-laws, find my widowed mother a date and keep my wife happy...all on the same day!
Love ya Mandy.

189

reine.de.tout Tue, May 19, 2009 12:03:18pm

Not related to the thread or any discussion here, but funny:

Killer Lizard Attack Newsman.

Youtube Video

I watched it several times, and laughed harder each time. You've gotta listen to the guy's reaction. Priceless.

190

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 12:03:23pm

re: #139 Charles

re: #150 miclaine

So what is a moderate, evolutionist, fiscal conservative, borderline libertarian, lizard to do?

Write your representatives at the federal, state, and local level and tell them you won't tolerate this any more or you won't be funding or voting for them.

And keep on writing until even after things change. Constant pressure and heat is needed to refine.

191

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:03:30pm

re: #174 turn

Thanks Dianna, ha next time whip out your sword and slice him in two for me. Oh no bad idea, there would then be two avanti

Turn, did you see my apology for my confusing comment ? Keep her sword in it's sheath in case I make another out of character comment.:) I'm on the same side as the both of you, on this issue at least.

192

Gus Tue, May 19, 2009 12:03:51pm

re: #187 MandyManners

Sounds like a fan of Alex Jones.

Big time. That site was hosted by GoDaddy and is now offline. Only can get the cached pages.

193

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:04:01pm

re: #188 miclaine

Get off your duff and do something.

I will as soon as I resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, rid Iran of nukes, take care of the taliban in pakistan and afghanistan, solve the global recession, global warming, get my kids through college, take care of my ailing in-laws, find my widowed mother a date and keep my wife happy...all on the same day!
Love ya Mandy.

My head...it's spinning.

194

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 12:04:13pm

re: #161 zombie

The "entropy argument" against evolution is so fundamentally ignorant it isn't even worth debunking. The people making it have no idea what entropy even is. Saying that evolution can't happen because entropy exists is the same thing as saying that birds can't fly because gravity exists.

First of all, entropy only applies to a closed system on average. Even within a completely closed system settling inevitably toward entropy, there almost always will be variations in energy density, meaning that in some localities, energy increases, even while overall things are evening out.

See every star in the night sky? That is a ball of energy surrounded by a vast void of energylessness. Each star proves that localized concentrations of energy can increase, even while the system overall is slowly succumbing to entropy. Every star disproves the creationists' "entropy argument."

But most importantly, as Charles accurately pointed out, the earth is NOT a closed system, since we get an immense amount of sunlight pouring into our ecosystem every second of every day.

I'm so sick of the creationists' idiotic, endlessly debunked brain-damaged pseudo-arguments that I simply refuse to engage with them any more, on any level. I'd rather talk with a fossilized lemur than a creationist.

Let's not forget volcanoes, geysers, and undersea vents; the earth's hot core also furnishes the terrestrial biosphere filmed on the surface of this sphere with open-system energy, and additional chemical compounds, as well.

195

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:04:18pm

re: #127 MrSilverDragon

LOL, a little comic relief after having been skewered by Charles is much appreciated.

196

JustABill Tue, May 19, 2009 12:04:29pm

re: #161 zombie

I have always wondered if gravity was anti-entropic. If we experience the "Big Crunch" wouldn't that mean that the universe is more ordered at the end (single huge mass surrounded by nothing, than it was in the middle(more uniform distribution of matter)

Even if we don't have a "Big Crunch", an isolated cloud of gas in space will eventually develop into a more organized state(Star and possible planets) than it was before, due mainly to the forces of gravity.

197

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 12:04:49pm

re: #161 zombie

Fundamentally ignorant though the 2nd Law of Thermo they may be, we still have to keep the facts out front and center so that the inaccurate information can be properly countered.

198

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:04:58pm

re: #195 turn

and you screwed that up turn, it was daddyg too.

199

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 12:05:41pm

re: #166 gmsc

Time for my standard list of favorite ID/Creationist argument links:

reDiscovery Institute (Parody site)

The Holy Book for Turtles-all-the-way-downism (Thanks, jcm!)

Using creationist/ID arguments against them:
Why We Believe in a Designer!
Organisms that Look Designed
Oolon Colluphid's Guide to Creation

Talk.Origins archive

Need To Know: Charles Darwin (5 Minute documentary on Charles Darwin)

People involved in spreading Darwin's discoveries as a philosophy, whom Ben Stein mysteriously neglects to mention:
Ernst Haeckel
William Sumner
Vladmir Ulyanov

Is There An Artifical God? (essay by Douglas Adams)

Get A-Life (essay on using artificial life to study evolution)

Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker (video about a-life)

Documentaries:
The Day The Universe Changed - "Fit To Rule" (Episode 8)

More evolution documentaries can be found here, including Evolution, Evolve, Human Evolution, Journey of Man, Origins and Why do people laugh at creationists?.

I believe we should christen this "gsmc's creationist hammer".

200

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 12:06:13pm

re: #150 miclaine

I've been deep into "lesser of two evils" ethics for a while now. Living in NYC, where the GOP are a permanent minority, that's the best I can do.

201

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:06:18pm

re: #184 MandyManners

Wait? That's a problem for anyone?

202

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:06:36pm

re: #182 wrenchwench

On this issue, that is certainly correct. Next question is, can he be any help anywhere else, or does this make him a destructive kook?

He's not destructive, he IS a prime example of the make up of the party.

203

kynna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:07:02pm

Lindsay Graham is absolutely an opportunist. He and Hagel and Luger put themselves first every time.

I hate that line "so and so does not lead this party". What a dork. The GOP official party leadership is either embarrassingly ineffective and out of touch with Republicans or total nutjobs. I reject 99% of those who call themselves leaders.

Sadly, every faction has their requirements. The one thing we should all stand together on -- and the thing I think we would stand together on it -- is fiscal responsibility and smaller government. Pro-capitalism.

Their response to the will of the people has been disappointing. No wonder Obama feels so safe on his catbird seat.

204

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:07:21pm

re: #194 Salamantis

Let's not forget volcanoes, geysers, and undersea vents; the earth's hot core also furnishes the terrestrial biosphere filmed on the surface of this sphere with open-system energy, and additional chemical compounds, as well.

I was gonna mention that, but wanted to keep my comment on a single rebuttal.

But yes, you are entirely correct:

Even if the Earth received little or no sunlight, the energy stored in the earth's molten core and slowly emanating to the surface could supply enough heat to cause evolution to happen. (We see this with primitive life forms evolving around undersea hot-water volcanic vents.)

205

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:08:03pm

re: #136 researchok

So if you don't understand evolution or the fundamental laws of science, that somehow qualifies you to be an advocate for creationism.

Just shoot me.

I don't think he implied that ok, I'm way upthread and I'll see if Charles responds.

206

Wendya Tue, May 19, 2009 12:08:07pm

re: #172 Spare O'Lake

At least he doesn't have his political head stuck up his ass like the extremist Laupnorians, DIers, YECers and their self-destructive ilk who seem bent on committing political suicide.

He has his political head stuck up his ass in other ways. That doesn't make him better than the kooks. He may appeal to the moonbats when he makes asinine statements about Cheney but they're not going to give him their vote.

207

Erik The Red Tue, May 19, 2009 12:08:17pm

Good Night Lizards. See all you insomniacs on the LNDT.

208

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 12:08:21pm

re: #199 Honorary Yooper

I believe we should christen this "gsmc's creationist hammer".

I pretty much agree, but how about "gmsc's creationist hammer"?

209

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 12:08:37pm

re: #202 Walter L. Newton

Aside form the lemur thing, with which I am in disagreement with Rush, are his efforts to prove what a disaster the auto proposals and mileage issues O-man and the Reign of the Magic Unicorns are trying to force upon us bad as well?

210

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:09:04pm

re: #140 Honorary Yooper

I clicked on that yoop and will read it later. thanks.

211

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 12:09:10pm

re: #208 wrenchwench

I pretty much agree, but how about "gmsc's creationist hammer"?

Yes, yes, my wonderful excuse for typing. :-P

212

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 12:09:12pm

re: #204 zombie

I was gonna mention that, but wanted to keep my comment on a single rebuttal.

But yes, you are entirely correct:

Even if the Earth received little or no sunlight, the energy stored in the earth's molten core and slowly emanating to the surface could supply enough heat to cause evolution to happen. (We see this with primitive life forms evolving around undersea hot-water volcanic vents.)

What about the earth's ever-changing magnetic field?

/ ducks

213

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:09:35pm

re: #203 kynna

Lindsay Graham is absolutely an opportunist. He and Hagel and Luger put themselves first every time.

Name me a politician who isn't?

Sadly, every faction has their requirements. The one thing we should all stand together on -- and the thing I think we would stand together on it -- is fiscal responsibility and smaller government. Pro-capitalism.

That's not enough to be considered a Republican. The party wants more than that out of ya.

214

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 12:09:39pm

re: #166 gmsc

Thanks. Saved to my favorites.

215

Kenneth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:10:47pm

re: #189 reine.de.tout

ROFLMAO! The crazy dance that guy does is hilarious!

216

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:11:22pm

re: #189 reine.de.tout

Hiya Toots!

217

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:11:24pm

re: #198 turn

((((((turn))))))

218

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 12:11:27pm

re: #183 Gus 802

Information on Youtube member that hosted and possibly taped said videos.

Youtube account: MoreRockin
Myspace: morerockin

Real Name: Matt Jafri

Matt Jafri had a presence on a site named Eyes on the Lies.

Part of his "interests" included anti-Israel news and commentary which can be seen under Corruption/Israel in the Google cached page.

There you will find articles titled by Mr. Jafri such as:

In addition to Matt Jafri's obsession with "CIA lies" as noted in his Youtube videos other topics shown at the Eyes on the Lies site includes:

Big Brother
Big Business
Globalism
Israel
Mainstream Media
Police State
Secret Societies
US Government

Ad Hominem is a 2500 year old Greek logical fallacy.

It doesn't matter if Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Pol Pot posted the videos, if the politicians in them said what they said; they are still accountable for it, and the identity of the videotaper is no excuse.

Even if you think that the messenger needs killin', it is the message that must be addressed.

219

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:11:32pm

I know how you guys/gals hate polls, but the trends in this Gallup polls released today shows where the GOP's strength is, and it's not a very broad demographic and has been shrinking.

Poll

220

Jimash Tue, May 19, 2009 12:12:02pm

"Things don’t naturally order themselves towards progression*. Uuummm.. in the natural order of things."

Can I say dipshit ? Mark Sanford is a dipshit.
If he could think of the word entropy he wouldn't be such a walking example of it.
Life defies entropy.

221

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:12:38pm

re: #196 JustABill

I have always wondered if gravity was anti-entropic. If we experience the "Big Crunch" wouldn't that mean that the universe is more ordered at the end (single huge mass surrounded by nothing, than it was in the middle(more uniform distribution of matter)

Even if we don't have a "Big Crunch", an isolated cloud of gas in space will eventually develop into a more organized state(Star and possible planets) than it was before, due mainly to the forces of gravity.

Good point. But now we need to get cosmological. Because if the Big Crunch happens, by definition (or at least by some people's definition), it won't be a big ball of all matter and energy surrounded by a vast universe of nothingness; in fact, the big ball of all matter and energy will be the entire extent of the universe, and there can be nothing -- not even "nothingness" nothing -- beyond its parameters. The universe will collapse in on itself, and no existence can exist outside of it.

Hard for the human brain to conceptualize, but that's the theory.

222

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:12:42pm

re: #201 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wait? That's a problem for anyone?

You'd think that the grease factor would keep the Cheeto dust on the keyboard and mouse but, that stuff can get everywhere.

223

Gus Tue, May 19, 2009 12:13:14pm

re: #218 Salamantis

Ad Hominem is a 2500 year old Greek logical fallacy.

It doesn't matter if Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Pol Pot posted the videos, if the politicians in them said what they said; they are still accountable for it, and the identity of the videotaper is no excuse.

Even if you think that the messenger needs killin', it is the message that must be addressed.

It matters if you look at his influence and consider his opinions in the spectrum of the GOP.

224

Kenneth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:13:30pm

re: #188 miclaine

Get off your duff and do something.

I will as soon as I resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, rid Iran of nukes, take care of the taliban in pakistan and afghanistan, solve the global recession, global warming, get my kids through college, take care of my ailing in-laws, find my widowed mother a date and keep my wife happy...all on the same day!

But enough about Obama's to-do list...

225

NelsFree Tue, May 19, 2009 12:13:32pm

I only have enough time to add my, "Uh Oh", and run to pick up the kid.
BBL

226

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:13:42pm

re: #209 eddiebear

Aside form the lemur thing, with which I am in disagreement with Rush, are his efforts to prove what a disaster the auto proposals and mileage issues O-man and the Reign of the Magic Unicorns are trying to force upon us bad as well?

Personally, myself, not speaking for anyone else, I don't give him note for anything. Any person who can dismiss a brand new discovery, in less than 24 hours, with a 4 sentence announcement on the radio, and put the whole issue to bed (in his mind) the way he did, this is a person who I am not interested in listening to any of his other opinions. He's not a scientist in any sort of way.

Yes, it makes me question his critical thinking skills all around. I am in no way hindered in my life if I distance myself from people like him. I don't have time for that sort of hot air and hollow thinking.

I call that compromise, and it's not for me.

227

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 12:14:35pm

Thanks for sharpening up my definition of entropy, Charles. It's been thirty years since organic chemistry. And the next time a hubcap falls off your car, you too can appreciate the amazing effects of entropy!

228

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:14:42pm

re: #174 turn

Thanks Dianna, ha next time whip out your sword and slice him in two for me. Oh no bad idea, there would then be two avanti

Not my style, any way. At least, (as I retreat from all the incredulous stares directed in my direction) I don't mean it to be!

229

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 12:15:22pm

re: #178 MandyManners

And, Medieval.

Let's go back to leeches!

Well, actually, leeches are quite beneficial in modern medicine...

...but I know what you mean.

230

UFO TOFU Tue, May 19, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #228 Dianna

(as I retreat from all the incredulous stares directed in my direction)

Heh!

231

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:15:46pm

re: #229 MrSilverDragon

Well, actually, leeches are quite beneficial in modern medicine...

...but I know what you mean.

and tasty in soup too!

232

debutaunt Tue, May 19, 2009 12:16:47pm

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If Ron Paul become the new face of the GOP, I'm out

You gonna turn down the free blimp?

233

JustABill Tue, May 19, 2009 12:16:54pm

re: #221 zombie

Good point. But now we need to get cosmological. Because if the Big Crunch happens, by definition (or at least by some people's definition), it won't be a big ball of all matter and energy surrounded by a vast universe of nothingness; in fact, the big ball of all matter and energy will be the entire extent of the universe, and there can be nothing -- not even "nothingness" nothing -- beyond its parameters. The universe will collapse in on itself, and no existence can exist outside of it.

Hard for the human brain to conceptualize, but that's the theory.

What about a cloud of gas condensing to a star/system? Presumably the process would occur without any outside interference(closed system) as long as there were small density variation to begin with.

234

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:17:55pm

re: #180 HypnoToad

I have a J.B.S. Haldane quote I'm even more fond of:

"An inordinate fondness for beetles."

In response to a question from a clergyman about what Haldane had discovered about the mind of the creator from his studies.

235

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 12:18:33pm

Lindsey Graham is an asshat and will soon no longer be in office.

236

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 12:18:54pm

re: #229 MrSilverDragon

Well, actually, leeches are quite beneficial in modern medicine...

...but I know what you mean.

Medieval? Pah! Let's go back to Galen and get "humourous!"

237

ArchangelMichael Tue, May 19, 2009 12:19:05pm

re: #226 Walter L. Newton

Since the inauguration I've stopped listening to Rush and most talk radio and have gone back to actually listening to music during my commute. I enjoy my drive much more now. I don't know how much of this nonsense and the Ronpaucalypse I could take if I didn't.

238

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 12:19:19pm

re: #226 Walter L. Newton
Fair enough.

So will you accept an economist or someone else more learned who wishes to prove the problems with the new fuel standards?

239

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 12:19:21pm

re: #196 JustABill

I have always wondered if gravity was anti-entropic. If we experience the "Big Crunch" wouldn't that mean that the universe is more ordered at the end (single huge mass surrounded by nothing, than it was in the middle(more uniform distribution of matter)

Even if we don't have a "Big Crunch", an isolated cloud of gas in space will eventually develop into a more organized state(Star and possible planets) than it was before, due mainly to the forces of gravity.

The universe at the instant of the Big Bang is at the maximum level of disorganization, or entropy. But as universal expansion proceeds, there is ever more room for entropy to manifest itself. In fact, since the beginning of the univere, this expansion has caused the maximum possible universal entropy to increase much more rapidly than the universe's actual overall entropy, leaving plenty of room for the organization of local pockets of order without violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics on the universal scale.

In case anyone is interested.

240

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:19:27pm

re: #229 MrSilverDragon

Well, actually, leeches are quite beneficial in modern medicine...

...but I know what you mean.

Hey, phlebotomies are still performed. It's useful for people with haemochromatosis.

241

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:19:47pm

re: #233 JustABill

What about a cloud of gas condensing to a star/system? Presumably the process would occur without any outside interference(closed system) as long as there were small density variation to begin with.

One of the most recent interesting discoveries to me is that we have a black hole at the center of our galaxy as do most others. We live in interesting times.

242

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 12:19:53pm

By the way, Ron Paul is also a creationist:

Youtube Video

But in his case, that might be the least crazy thing about him.

243

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 12:19:55pm

re: #232 debutaunt

You gonna turn down the free blimp?

I'll take a unicorn over a blimp anytime. Or, in other words, a liar over a lunatic.

244

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:20:40pm

245

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 12:21:13pm

I think it's time for me to 'defy' the second law of thermodynamics by absorbing a bunch of disordered proteins, fats and carbohydrates and turning them into complex cells and tissues.

Dinner time, in other words. BBL

246

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:21:24pm

re: #237 ArchangelMichael

Since the inauguration I've stopped listening to Rush and most talk radio and have gone back to actually listening to music during my commute. I enjoy my drive much more now. I don't know how much of this nonsense and the Ronpaucalypse I could take if I didn't.

I enjoy listening to the POTUS channel on XM. (Politics of the US in this case)

247

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:21:45pm

re: #242 Charles

It's something of the gold standard.

(Yes, that was a joke. I know it's weak, but I'm trying)

248

ShanghaiEd Tue, May 19, 2009 12:22:31pm

re: #141 buzzsawmonkey

...we do ourselves a disservice by not recognizing where the appeal lies and how strong its spurious offer of comfort is.

Yes! You nailed it. Well said.

249

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 12:22:31pm

re: #247 Dianna

It's something of the gold standard.

(Yes, that was a joke. I know it's weak, but I'm trying)

You made me smile. ;)

250

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:23:05pm

re: #249 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why, thank you!

251

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:23:09pm

252

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:23:13pm

re: #229 MrSilverDragon

Well, actually, leeches are quite beneficial in modern medicine...

...but I know what you mean.

And, maggots.

253

Randall Gross Tue, May 19, 2009 12:23:30pm

I prefer the Paulbot's own footage of this event, he was trying to make a point, but ... when Graham slams Paul the hardest he doesn't just get cheered, he gets a standing ovation (about forty seconds in.)

Youtube Video

254

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:23:52pm

re: #244 taxfreekiller

avanti

if you dumb ass commies do end all we productive Republicans

none of you will have anything to leach off of for the money to pay for the ACORN votes, the dole, and the union dues,,,

but they will all still want the free stuff and come looking for you, not me.

like that, facts

I'm fine, thank you for asking, and you ?

255

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 12:24:13pm

re: #219 avanti

It appears as though much of the movement in the numbers is based on growing dissatisfaction with the Dems.

David Frum and Peggy Noonan wince.

256

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:24:16pm

re: #191 avanti

Turn, did you see my apology for my confusing comment ? Keep her sword in it's sheath in case I make another out of character comment.:) I'm on the same side as the both of you, on this issue at least.

Yes I saw that avanti, I'm way behind because of this distracting thing called "work". I touched a hot button issue with that comment. And you might notice I didn't even down ding ya.

257

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 12:24:27pm

I can't eat gold, but I have bought it over the last 34 years. Bought at around $340 and sold last summer once it broke $900 an ounce.

Buy low, sell high is a good thing.

Paid for the beach house.

258

SFGoth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:25:08pm

Now I know how Reagan felt when the Democrat party left him.

259

callahan23 Tue, May 19, 2009 12:25:21pm

re: #242 Charles

By the way, Ron Paul is also a creationist:

But in his case, that might be the least crazy thing about him.

I actually saw Ron Paul for the first time speak on video, as I thought I could withstand him for only a minute.
--- NOW I need a thorough bleach bath.

260

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:25:37pm

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

Unicorn over a blimp? Liar over a lunatic?

They sound like descriptions of the devices in some bizarre new modern heraldry: "a unicorn couchant above a blimp, argent, upon a field azure."

Ron Paul's crest?

261

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:25:41pm

re: #255 eddiebear

It appears as though much of the movement in the numbers is based on growing dissatisfaction with the Dems.

David Frum and Peggy Noonan wince.

The independents are the fastest growing group, and for good reason.

262

Kenneth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:25:42pm

Does entropy prevent a Big Crunch?

263

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 12:25:49pm

re: #256 turn

Yes I saw that avanti, I'm way behind because of this distracting thing called "work". I touched a hot button issue with that comment. And you might notice I didn't even down ding ya.

Oh, crap... work! That's what I'm supposed to be doing right now... Fortunately I control the network. :)

/looks around for the boss...

264

Yashmak Tue, May 19, 2009 12:26:01pm

re: #49 jimmyk

I am not pro-creationism and think it should not be taught in public schools. But this obsession with the issue seems bizarre to me, as is the incessant GOP-bashing over it. There are so many more important issues, this does not make even the top 10. Give it a break already. I would happily vote for a creationist who shared my views on national security and the economy, whereas I wouldn't think of voting for someone with Obamaesque views on the latter two issues no matter how pure his anti-creationism.

These are the people you want leading us?!? People who would so willingly replace science with faith? If you believe for one moment that this won't have deep and lasting impacts on both our national security AND our economy, you're not taking the long view.

If you think, for one moment, that the party's adherence to folks like this won't further marginalize it by driving away moderates it needs to win elections, you're out of your mind. You want security and economic conservativism? You have to get conservatives elected first, and for that you'll need the moderates and centrists. Don't drive them away.

265

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 12:26:17pm

re: #242 Charles

By the way, Ron Paul is also a creationist:

Youtube Video

But in his case, that might be the least crazy thing about him.

Oddly enough, I am no where remotely near shocked. It's almost as if Ron Paul is a singular expression of what is wrong in the GOP these days.

266

Russkilitlover Tue, May 19, 2009 12:26:53pm

re: #241 avanti

One of the most recent interesting discoveries to me is that we have a black hole at the center of our galaxy as do most others. We live in interesting times.

We might soon have a bunch of teeny weeny ones somewhere in Switzerland, as well. ;)

267

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:27:12pm

re: #217 MandyManners

((((((turn))))))

thanks MM, turn can take it. Actually I'm happy, this is the first time Charles has ever noticed little old me. ha

268

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:27:12pm

re: #233 JustABill

What about a cloud of gas condensing to a star/system? Presumably the process would occur without any outside interference(closed system) as long as there were small density variation to begin with.

That's a very good question that has also long bedeviled me. Gravity, all by itself, does seem to be anti-entropic. But I guess that other "forces," such as electromagnetism, the "strong force," etc. will, when all combined, add up to exactly balance out gravity, universe-wide.

I think this issue is as-yet unresolved in physics, and we will need to get a "grand unified theory," which has so far eluded everyone, before we can get a glimpse at the answer to your question.

Gravity, after all, is not a "force," but rather a distortion of the fabric of space. And mass/energy, at a quantum level, is simply a potentiality built into every point of that same space. I suspect that space itself is pluripotent, and at some beneath-perceptible level, it fractures into two self-canceling halves -- gravity and energy. From that we get all of existence. Eventually, so it would seem, it will all "resolve" and become mere potentiality again.

One could therefore say that every point of space, at every instant, is a sort of miracle-of-creation micro-big-bang. Therefore, I'm a creationist!

269

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:27:13pm

270

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 12:27:43pm

I'd prefer no one leading me. I'd prefer people leaving me the fuck alone.

re: #264 Yashmak

These are the people you want leading us?!? People who would so willingly replace science with faith? If you believe for one moment that this won't have deep and lasting impacts on both our national security AND our economy, you're not taking the long view.

If you think, for one moment, that the party's adherence to folks like this won't further marginalize it by driving away moderates it needs to win elections, you're out of your mind. You want security and economic conservativism? You have to get conservatives elected first, and for that you'll need the moderates and centrists. Don't drive them away.

271

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:27:45pm

272

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:28:15pm

Mark Sanford, like most GOP politicians, is a creationist as well;
Most GOP politicians?
Please qualify that.

273

Ward Cleaver Tue, May 19, 2009 12:28:23pm

Life in Bizarro world gets more bizarre every day.

274

Russkilitlover Tue, May 19, 2009 12:28:31pm

re: #258 SFGoth

Now I know how Reagan felt when the Democrat party left him.

But he, at least, had somewhere to go.

275

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:28:45pm

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

276

callahan23 Tue, May 19, 2009 12:29:24pm

re: #275 MandyManners

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

Good grief!

277

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:29:37pm

278

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:30:12pm

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

Unicorn over a blimp? Liar over a lunatic?

They sound like descriptions of the devices in some bizarre new modern heraldry: "a unicorn couchant above a blimp, argent, upon a field azure."

You could definitely become famous if you hooked up with a graphic designer (if you're not one yourself, which you may be) and created hilarious modern heraldic crests for modern politicians/celebrities/groups/ideologies. The possibilities are endless!

279

Joel Tue, May 19, 2009 12:30:21pm

re: #41 Erik The Red

According to KT and the MFM it was closer to 90%.

That's because he is an idiot!

280

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:30:34pm

re: #263 MrSilverDragon

Oh, crap... work! That's what I'm supposed to be doing right now... Fortunately I control the network. :)

/looks around for the boss...

I went outside intending to head for the garage, but the sun was out, and I suffer from SADD and need sunlight to cheer me up. Then I heard the Blue Angels practicing, and decided to sit on the deck with my lap top and watch them and recharge my brain with some sun.

281

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:30:35pm

re: #271 buzzsawmonkey

I wish my recollections of heraldic language, and my French, were good enough to describe the shield's supporting figures, the motto, and the tinfoil-hatted head above.

Would this help?

282

Ward Cleaver Tue, May 19, 2009 12:30:58pm

re: #275 MandyManners

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

Poor kid.

283

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:31:05pm

Is Ron Paul a "Creationist"?

284

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 12:31:08pm

re: #275 MandyManners

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

Oh no. Poor kid.

285

Ojoe Tue, May 19, 2009 12:31:17pm

Check out the Modern Whig party.

Let the crazies have the D and R parties.

Why bang your head against the wall?

Join the Whigs.

286

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:31:17pm

re: #276 callahan23

Good grief!

The dad's acting all innocent.

287

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:31:55pm

re: #283 IslandLibertarian

Is Ron Paul a "Creationist"?

Yes. See Charles' No. 242.

288

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:31:57pm

re: #263 MrSilverDragon

heh, an IT guy.

289

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 12:32:04pm

re: #41 Erik The Red

According to KT and the MFM it was closer to 90%.

I find it interesting that outright lies like this get updings.

290

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:32:15pm

re: #262 Kenneth

Does entropy prevent a Big Crunch?

Oh, well done!

Good link.

291

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 12:32:26pm

re: #272 IslandLibertarian

Mark Sanford, like most GOP politicians, is a creationist as well;
Most GOP politicians?
Please qualify that.

I meant exactly what I wrote -- most GOP politicians are creationists.

292

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:32:39pm

Gotta' go clean up a hair ball. bbiab

293

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:33:00pm

re: #285 Ojoe

Check out the Modern Whig party.

Let the crazies have the D and R parties.

Why bang your head against the wall?

Join the Whigs.

Divided, we're conquered.

294

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:33:25pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

I find it interesting that outright lies like this get updings.

Not an outright lie, KT. It was an appreciation of the caustic remark. People could take you as having gone just a little over-board on your crusade.

295

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 12:33:37pm

re: #272 IslandLibertarian

Has there been a national registry on which politicians support/don't support ID?

Personally, I don't care either way. But that's just me. Taxes, war, and the economy matter the most to me.

296

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 12:33:37pm

Mandy, with all due respect, are you willing to let the "state" decide what is best for the child?

Just a yes/no question.

re: #275 MandyManners

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

297

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 12:33:38pm

re: #283 IslandLibertarian

Is Ron Paul a "Creationist"?

Already answered.

re: #242 Charles

By the way, Ron Paul is also a creationist:

[Video]But in his case, that might be the least crazy thing about him.

298

Ojoe Tue, May 19, 2009 12:34:01pm

re: #262 Kenneth

Captain Crunch.

299

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 12:34:07pm

re: #288 turn

heh, an IT guy.

Oh, no no no... THE IT guy... at least, I am here. :)

300

Ward Cleaver Tue, May 19, 2009 12:34:47pm

re: #285 Ojoe

Check out the Modern Whig party.

Let the crazies have the D and R parties.

Why bang your head against the wall?

Join the Whigs.

You know you want to.

301

Gus Tue, May 19, 2009 12:35:01pm

Correction:

re: #183 Gus 802

Information on Youtube member that hosted and possibly taped said videos.

Youtube account: MoreRockin
Myspace: morerockin

Real Name: Matt Jarfi

Apparently he also ran for county council in Horry County under the Constitution Party.

302

Ward Cleaver Tue, May 19, 2009 12:35:19pm

If we join the Whigs, do we have to 'hoot' like an owl?

303

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:35:20pm

re: #275 MandyManners

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

Damn. That's just awful.

304

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 12:35:36pm

re: #285 Ojoe

Check out the Modern Whig party.
...
Join the Whigs.

The only Whig I can name was Davy Crockett. When he lost for reelection to the House of Representatives, he told a crowd of voters in Jackson, Tennessee, "You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas." That didn't turn out so well.

305

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 12:35:46pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

I find it interesting that outright lies like this get updings.

Ever hear of sarcasm?

306

Ojoe Tue, May 19, 2009 12:36:07pm

re: #293 IslandLibertarian

The center divides away the extremes, the extremes are always few in number; the extremes are loud and obnoxious and have infected the two main parties enough to drive sensible people away & if we do not form our own party we will have alternating government by extremes in this country.

307

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:36:17pm

re: #291 Charles

I meant exactly what I wrote -- most GOP politicians are creationists.

I am skeptical that MOST are creationists. But if you have statistics, I'd appreciate being educated to the numbers in office.

308

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 12:36:19pm

re: #299 MrSilverDragon

Phil is that you? (he's our IT guy - holy shit don't answer back yes please)

bbl

309

Ward Cleaver Tue, May 19, 2009 12:36:26pm

re: #304 Son of the Black Dog

The only Whig I can name was Davy Crockett. When he lost for reelection to the House of Representatives, he told a crowd of voters in Jackson, Tennessee, "You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas." That didn't turn out so well.

Hey, it got him a TV show!

310

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:36:27pm

re: #296 sphincter

Mandy, with all due respect, are you willing to let the "state" decide what is best for the child?

Just a yes/no question.

Usually, no. But condemning the kid to die?

311

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:37:29pm

re: #262 Kenneth

Does entropy prevent a Big Crunch?

Nice link!

It contains the word I was looking for: "de-coupling."

Current cosmological theories look at the "de-coupling" of matter from energy. But I think there is a more basic "de-coupling" of gravity from energy/matter.

312

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:37:31pm

re: #289 Killgore Trout

I find it interesting that outright lies like this get updings.

Basic human nature, a lie you agree with is almost always better then the truth you disagree with. Go over on Kos and post that Bush was caught in a gay sting and you'll be king for a day.:)

313

Ward Cleaver Tue, May 19, 2009 12:37:50pm

re: #292 MandyManners

Gotta' go clean up a hair ball. bbiab

Do you need to lick some Vaseline?

/ducking

314

JustABill Tue, May 19, 2009 12:37:58pm

re: #268 zombie

So your saying the universe is only a micro-second or so old. And I thought the young earthers were crazy...//

315

callahan23 Tue, May 19, 2009 12:37:59pm

re: #286 MandyManners

The dad's acting all innocent.

We had a similar case here in Europe a few years back. IIRC the brain-dead parents managed to kill the child in the process.
I thoroughly despise this kind of lunacy. Not completely OT.

316

Ojoe Tue, May 19, 2009 12:38:16pm

re: #310 Dianna

And, there are laws on the books against child abuse.

317

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 12:38:22pm

fine, let the state decide. I don't know the situation, and doubt that you do either.

Let the state decide. That is your decision.

Fine.
re: #310 Dianna

Usually, no. But condemning the kid to die?

318

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 12:38:31pm

re: #308 turn

Phil is that you? (he's our IT guy - holy shit don't answer back yes please)

bbl

Nope. Not Phil...

...or maybe I'm just saying that to make you complacent...

/evil chuckle...

319

SFGoth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:39:32pm

re: #79 Eowyn2

Apples and Bananas

That's awfully Freudian if you think about it.

320

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 12:39:37pm

re: #310 Dianna

Usually, no. But condemning the kid to die?

The parents are refusing a treatment with a 90% recovery rate. They are treating him with "good clean living." He has a 5% recovery rate on their "good clean living" plan. I'm with the state on this one.

321

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:40:09pm

OK--show of hands here; who thinks the GOP has become the Loony Party?

Sigh. Too early to start drinking. Crying-yes. Drinking, no.

322

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 12:40:18pm

re: #316 Ojoe

I have seen in the past where Divine Scientists (or whatever they are called) have been arrested if they fail to take sick children to the doctor, leading to preventable deaths or outbreaks.

Kinda ties in with the anti0vax stupidity.

323

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 12:40:47pm

re: #321 calcajun

OK--show of hands here; who thinks the GOP has become the Loony Party?

Sigh. Too early to start drinking. Crying-yes. Drinking, no.

Hey, it's gotta be happy hour somewhere...

324

UFO TOFU Tue, May 19, 2009 12:40:51pm

re: #321 calcajun

The secret is to pace yourself.

325

Mithrax Tue, May 19, 2009 12:41:10pm

re: #323 MrSilverDragon

Hey, it's gotta be happy hour somewhere...

The sun is definitely over the yard arm!

326

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:41:25pm

re: #319 SFGoth

Sometimes a banana is just a banana. And sometimes an apple is an unmentionable anatomical part. /

327

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 12:41:29pm

re: #307 IslandLibertarian

I am skeptical that MOST are creationists. But if you have statistics, I'd appreciate being educated to the numbers in office.

That's OK, go ahead and be skeptical. At the event that's the subject of this post, a creationist was unanimously elected as head of the state GOP, and nearly every other politician at the event was also a creationist, including the governor of the state. Dozens of state GOP platforms explicitly advocate teaching creationism as science. In state after state, GOP politicians have tried to sneak creationism into public schools, either disguised as "intelligent design" or as outright young earth Biblical literalism.

The simple fact is that it's difficult to find GOP politicians who are NOT creationists.

328

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:41:41pm

re: #291 Charles

I meant exactly what I wrote -- most GOP politicians are creationists.

The Bushes--GHW, GW and Jeb? Bob and Elizabeth Dole? Rudy? Mitt? Fred Thompson? Kay Bailey Hutchinson? Lott? Shelby? Steele? Cantor?

I don't care what someone beleives as long as she or he doesn't want to shove science out the door and religion in the window.

329

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:42:01pm

re: #275 MandyManners

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

There could be three victims in that sad story, a dead child, and the two parents that have to live with their choice to deny him care.

330

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:42:11pm

re: #326 calcajun

Sometimes a banana is just a banana. And sometimes an apple is an unmentionable anatomical part. /

You mean -- a baby's arm holding an apple?

331

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 12:42:23pm

let the state make all decisions then folks.

no arguments here. I got no dog in the hunt.

everything, and I do mean everything is going to be decided for you.

you have already lost your voice.

it is done.

332

Ojoe Tue, May 19, 2009 12:42:52pm

re: #322 eddiebear

Here is exactly where the state is needed, to step in and use a bit of its legitimate monopoly of force.

This is called civilization.

333

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:43:08pm

re: #317 sphincter

D

fine, let the state decide. I don't know the situation, and doubt that you do either.

Let the state decide. That is your decision.

Fine.

Really? You think it's just great that they can refuse the kid getting chemo after one treatment? Then take the kid on the run?

You would intervene, I would hope, if you saw someone beating a kid. Not a spanking, but a beating.

This is equivalent.

If you really think every parent is a good parent, you've lost your mind.

I love simple arguments, yes/no decisions. It would be nice if they were the only ones on offer.

334

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 12:43:09pm

re: #312 avanti

Basic human nature, a lie you agree with is almost always better then the truth you disagree with. Go over on Kos and post that Bush was caught in a gay sting and you'll be king for a day.:)

All too true. This thread (for example) would have a completely different tone if posted at Kos or Hot Air.

335

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 12:43:22pm

re: #275 MandyManners

The child whose parents were ordered to get him into cancer treatment has been taken by his mom and they're on the lam.

I don't know why I'm surprised by this.

336

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:43:25pm

re: #327 Charles

The simple fact is that it's difficult to find GOP politicians who are NOT creationists.

Our governator Arnold is probably not a creationist, but then again he's hated as a RINO by most Repubs from other states.

337

KingKenrod Tue, May 19, 2009 12:43:36pm

Not treating a sick child is child abuse. The gov't has a legitimate interest in that.

338

lawhawk Tue, May 19, 2009 12:43:39pm

re: #327 Charles

Most of those GOPers who aren't on board the creationist bandwagon are NE liberal GOPers, aka the Rockefeller wing, and are on the outs with the conservatives and Southern GOPers who are peddling this stuff.

This is a schism that isn't going to end well for the GOP.

339

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:44:05pm

re: #322 eddiebear

I have seen in the past where Divine Scientists (or whatever they are called) have been arrested if they fail to take sick children to the doctor, leading to preventable deaths or outbreaks.

Kinda ties in with the anti0vax stupidity.

Arrest of Christian Scientist for refusal to obtain medical treatment for their children are few and far between. And most court cases of Jehovah's Witnesses for refusing blood transfusions have been upheld in favor of the Witnesses.

The courts are required to prove that the person beliefs are not the motivating force behind their decisions, and that is very hard to do in a court.

340

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 12:44:07pm

re: #296 sphincter

Mandy, with all due respect, are you willing to let the "state" decide what is best for the child?

Just a yes/no question.

Mandy went to clean up a hairball*, so I'll answer. It is not a yes/no question! In general the state should keep it's nose out of most peoples' business, and that includes how they raise their children. However, this is child abuse by neglect. Lethal child abuse.

*dogs don't produce hairballs

341

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:44:12pm

re: #320 ConservatismNow!

Me, too.

It would be lovely, wouldn't it, if abstract principle could be the only way to decide matters?

342

callahan23 Tue, May 19, 2009 12:44:25pm

re: #292 MandyManners

Gotta' go clean up a hair ball. bbiab

A good remedy for not having to deal with hair balls from cats is to mix some malt paste into their food. The hair will go the way of the rest of the food. Mostly. We have a pretty long haired Maine Coon cat with very few hair ball incidences. Also cats dig malt.

343

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:44:38pm

re: #321 calcajun

OK--show of hands here; who thinks the GOP has become the Loony Party?

Sigh. Too early to start drinking. Crying-yes. Drinking, no.

Lost it's way, yes, Loony, a good part of it, hopeless no.

344

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 12:44:38pm

Yipeee!

A purge! Nothin' for fun than a bloody purge!

Stone the unfaithful monkey!

We can all rejoice in the communal purification that comes from such wondrous activities like witch hunts, pogroms and stonings!

And if you lose your nerve, just open that Old Testament up to those pages labeled "Leviticus" and tell yourself that God ordered you to do it!

Social Conservatism will redeem all and deliver purity as our enemies are vanquished in the hell fire!

///

345

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:44:40pm

re: #329 avanti

There could be three victims in that sad story, a dead child, and the two parents that have to live with their choice to deny him care.

The parents are NOT victims. They are the perpetrators.

346

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:45:21pm

re: #327 Charles

Charles, it could be worse. This could be the 1920's and it could be the Klan being the power broker for the GOP. Though, given the close-mindedness and reactionary tendencies of some Creationists I know-- it's not far off.

I, for one, are wondering when the grown-ups are going to come home and see the mess that the kids have made of my party.

347

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 12:45:31pm

re: #331 sphincter

let the state make all decisions then folks.

no arguments here. I got no dog in the hunt.

everything, and I do mean everything is going to be decided for you.

you have already lost your voice.

it is done.

My voice is screaming for that child to receive the medical care needed to save his life.

348

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:45:37pm

The judge has signed an arrest warrant for the mom.

349

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:45:40pm

re: #330 zombie

You see it too?!

350

Russkilitlover Tue, May 19, 2009 12:45:44pm

re: #336 zombie

Our governator Arnold is probably not a creationist, but then again he's hated as a RINO by most Repubs ~~from other states~~ within California.

FTFY

351

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:46:10pm

re: #346 calcajun

Charles, it could be worse. This could be the 1920's and it could be the Klan being the power broker for the GOP. Though, given the close-mindedness and reactionary tendencies of some Creationists I know-- it's not far off.

I, for one, are wondering when the grown-ups are going to come home and see the mess that the kids have made of my party.

The grown ups ARE running the party.

352

LGoPs Tue, May 19, 2009 12:46:12pm

re: #321 calcajun

OK--show of hands here; who thinks the GOP has become the Loony Party?

Sigh. Too early to start drinking. Crying-yes. Drinking, no.

I don't think so but it all depends on how broad your focus is. If creationism or ID is your criteria then yeah they're nuts. I happen to agree with the views here on those subjects but I don't choose it as my primary discriminator. I see many threats that are of far more concern. Everybody picks their own battles.

353

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:46:28pm

re: #321 calcajun

OK--show of hands here; who thinks the GOP has become the Loony Party?

Sigh. Too early to start drinking. Crying-yes. Drinking, no.

Right now there is a woman on the A train heading back into Harlem. She just finished her day of work cleaning a mansion in the Hamptons.
Raise a glass to her. It's never too early.

354

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:46:39pm

re: #331 sphincter

let the state make all decisions then folks.

no arguments here. I got no dog in the hunt.

everything, and I do mean everything is going to be decided for you.

you have already lost your voice.

it is done.

The state has a responsibility to protect the child. What the parents are doing is little different then shooting him in the head.

355

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:46:59pm

re: #331 sphincter

let the state make all decisions then folks.

no arguments here. I got no dog in the hunt.

everything, and I do mean everything is going to be decided for you.

you have already lost your voice.

it is done.

You, sir, are an idiot.

You propose far too general a statement, and then act as if everyone who objects to this case of child neglect, abuse and endangerment is a corporatist stooge.

356

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 12:47:29pm

re: #338 lawhawk

Most of those GOPers who aren't on board the creationist bandwagon are NE liberal GOPers, aka the Rockefeller wing, and are on the outs with the conservatives and Southern GOPers who are peddling this stuff.

This is a schism that isn't going to end well for the GOP.

No, no it is not, but it was a long time in the making starting with Nixon's "Southern Strategy". By peeling away these nuts from the Democrats (and yes, they would've been Dems 60 or 70 years ago), he brought their brand of kookism to the GOP. Maybe it is time for that schism to take place. Hopefully, it happens concurrent with a Democratic Party schism, and we have a full realignment of the parties.

357

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:47:30pm

358

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:47:48pm

re: #354 avanti

The state has a responsibility to protect the child. What the parents are doing is little different then shooting him in the head.

Agreed, but the state has always had to be very careful of a families freedom to practice their religion.

359

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 12:48:07pm

re: #336 zombie

Our governator Arnold is probably not a creationist, but then again he's hated as a RINO by most Repubs from other states.

I remember the fervor many had, after Ahnold won the governorship in the run-off election, for proposing a Constitutional amendment to allow him to run for POTUS. I wonder if any would 'fess up to wanting that now.

360

MandyManners Tue, May 19, 2009 12:48:13pm

Gotta' go pick up The Kid for the last time for two months.

Youtube Video

361

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:48:30pm

re: #345 MandyManners

The parents are NOT victims. They are the perpetrators.

I agree Mandy, how about 3 tragedies ?

362

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:48:48pm

363

Ojoe Tue, May 19, 2009 12:48:53pm

re: #357 Iron Fist

I was reminded of the religious test when that TV reporter kept asking Sarah Palin if she thought global warming was caused by humans.

364

Ward Cleaver Tue, May 19, 2009 12:49:04pm

re: #360 MandyManners

Gotta' go pick up The Kid for the last time for two months.

[Video]

The last time? Wow. Our kids have 2-1/2 weeks to go.

365

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 12:49:42pm

re: #329 avanti

There could be three victims in that sad story, a dead child, and the two parents that have to live with their choice to deny him care.

uhh, the parent denying treatment is no victim, more a criminal IMO.

366

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:49:43pm

re: #346 calcajun

Charles, it could be worse. This could be the 1920's and it could be the Klan being the power broker for the GOP. Though, given the close-mindedness and reactionary tendencies of some Creationists I know-- it's not far off.

I, for one, are wondering when the grown-ups are going to come home and see the mess that the kids have made of my party.

The Democrats of the 1920's were a coalition of the Communists and the KKK. Not the GOP.

367

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:49:45pm

re: #351 Walter L. Newton

The grown ups ARE running the party.

You are SUCH a buzz-kill. Here I was, indulging myself in my little fantasy and you had to go and ruin it. /

368

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 12:50:02pm

re: #329 avanti

There could be three victims in that sad story, a dead child, and the two parents that have to live with their choice to deny him care.

Then that would be one victim and two inmates (hopefully)

369

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:50:20pm

370

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:50:21pm

371

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 12:50:39pm

re: #362 oldschool

so what?

You haven't read a single post on the subject, apparently.

372

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 12:50:40pm

Comments complaining about this topic will be deleted.

373

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:51:01pm

Oops... there goes my 369. Bad, Wally, Bad.

374

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:51:22pm

re: #365 unrealizedviewpoint

uhh, the parent denying treatment is no victim, more a criminal IMO.

Yep, they were only victims of misdirected faith, I stand corrected.

375

jvic Tue, May 19, 2009 12:51:26pm

re: #86 Lawrence Schmerel

Republicans would be wise to stop taking shots at each other. Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment (Thou shalt not criticize a fellow Republican.) seems wise right now. I am not saying that the Republicans shouldn't be criticized where it is due. But it is not politically wise for them to be public self-critics and in-fighters.

Thanks for the reminder about the 11th Commandment.

But I'm not sure that "Republicans" who are intrinsically deceptive and dishonest about their goals & methods are covered.

376

FurryOldGuyJeans Tue, May 19, 2009 12:52:08pm

re: #372 Charles

Comments complaining about this topic will be deleted.

It is sad you have to keep saying it.

377

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:52:29pm

re: #366 Dianna

I have to go back and look at that. I know the Klan was a huge force, but I cannot see them as ever having being allied with the Communists and/or Progressives in the Democratic Party of that era. Wouldn't the two be antithetical?

378

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 12:53:30pm

re: #339 Walter L. Newton

Arrest of Christian Scientist for refusal to obtain medical treatment for their children are few and far between. And most court cases of Jehovah's Witnesses for refusing blood transfusions have been upheld in favor of the Witnesses.

The courts are required to prove that the person beliefs are not the motivating force behind their decisions, and that is very hard to do in a court.

Wisconsin has a case on trial right now. Trial of parents who treated dead daughters diabetes with prayer

379

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:53:35pm

re: #377 calcajun

I have to go back and look at that. I know the Klan was a huge force, but I cannot see them as ever having being allied with the Communists and/or Progressives in the Democratic Party of that era. Wouldn't the two be antithetical?

No.

Or, at least, they could manage to look past each other.

380

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 12:54:08pm

381

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 12:54:14pm

re: #271 buzzsawmonkey

I wish my recollections of heraldic language, and my French, were good enough to describe the shield's supporting figures, the motto, and the tinfoil-hatted head above.

I'd like it to symbolize that he will Agincourt disaster.

382

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 12:54:22pm

re: #379 Dianna

No.

Or, at least, they could manage to look past each other.

They share common ground in their hatred of minorities

383

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 12:54:22pm

As the GOP veers to the right, has anyone noticed that Obama is moving quickly to occupy the centre-right?
His recent reversals on Gitmo and the torture issue are instructive, I think.

Before Obama's nomination, he was generally viewed as a blank page, a chameleon, a candidate who was prepared to be all things to all people.
Some even thought that Obama would, if necessary, end up somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun if necessary.

It was only later that Obama was labeled as a socialist and a communist. But that monniker may not stick on someone as shifty and ruthless as him.

I think Obama is licking his chops and moving in on the soft GOP centre for the political kill. And those who think the Dems will turn on Obama and self-destruct are, I fear, engaged in wishful thinking.

384

UFO TOFU Tue, May 19, 2009 12:55:21pm

re: #359 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh my, that made me laugh!

385

SFGoth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:55:25pm

I'm kind of curious as to what Michael Savage has to say about this fossil, not because I listen to him (I *rarely* do - on the few times I drive to work and want entertaining evening drive time radio), but because he has a PhD in some kind of biology field.

386

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 12:55:29pm

re: #327 Charles

Again, I say I'd like to see the statistics. I am willing to be EDUCATED as to the number of creationist Republican politicians.

387

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:55:36pm

re: #352 LGoPs

You and I might agree on the ID subject, but if and when the day comes that it gains scientific acceptance, it's a philosophy and not a science and should not be taught as such in public schools. Again, there's a dangerous precedent that will be set if this happens; chipping away at the Establishment Clause is a very bad thing.

388

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 12:56:42pm

"I think Obama is licking his chops and moving in on the soft GOP centre for the political kill. And those who think the Dems will turn on Obama and self-destruct are, I fear, engaged in wishful thinking."

It is done. It is over. Any thought of combatting it is futile.

389

Noam Chumpski Tue, May 19, 2009 12:57:15pm

I think it's important to note that a bunch of Libertarians disrupting a Republican Convention isn't really something you can blame on the GOP. I don't see any Democrats there.

I'm tired of the GOP creationism crap as well, but the story here is that the Libertarian Party showed up to disrupt a GOP-organized event.

Or at least that's what the Libertarians are saying.

390

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 12:57:24pm

re: #379 Dianna

Gotta dust off my (30 year-old college)books on the 20's. It still does not sound right, though.

391

SFGoth Tue, May 19, 2009 12:57:32pm

re: #328 MandyManners

The Bushes--GHW, GW and Jeb? Bob and Elizabeth Dole? Rudy? Mitt? Fred Thompson? Kay Bailey Hutchinson? Lott? Shelby? Steele? Cantor?

I don't care what someone beleives as long as she or he doesn't want to shove science out the door and religion in the window.

Yes you should care because, people don't hold extreme beliefs w/o wanting to *share* them.

392

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 12:57:41pm

re: #321 calcajun

OK--show of hands here; who thinks the GOP has become the Loony Party?

Sigh. Too early to start drinking. Crying-yes. Drinking, no.

And here is the sad thing -

Remember Arnold Schwarzenegger? The guy we elected in California to restore fiscal responsibility to the state and tell the cronies in the state employee unions where to stick their demands for even richer pensions, higher salaries and shorter work weeks?

Remember that guy? He represented hope for the economic conservatives.

And he screwed the pooch by taking a "if you can't beat them join them" attitude towards the state employee unions.

So anyone who is a fiscal conservative who doesn't give a crap about regulating who sleep with whom and how (and what they want to call it) is screwed.

No representation.

None.

Just the same, I am done with handing the SoCons more power and money because they pinky swear that THIS TIME they really will cut back government.

They have no interest in cutting back government - they just want to retrain the social workers to become the religious police and ensure that Darwin isn't taught and that Sodomy Laws are restored. After all, God is just itchin to destroy our country if we hit the anal sex tipping point.

393

LGoPs Tue, May 19, 2009 12:57:46pm

re: #380 Iron Fist

Yeah, that is another one. If you don't hold politically correct views on most any issue, then you aren't fit to run for office. In a way, that was Obama's key to victory. He didn't have much of a record to investigate, he was attractive and well spoken, and all he had to do was focus on "Hope and Change!" while actually answering as little as possible about his core motivations (other than an overweaning desire for the Power of the Presidency) and positions.

It worked pretty well for him. It'd work pretty well for anyone so long as they kept petting their toy lapdog "Media".

The only problem being you have to be a leftist to have the MFM act as a lapdog.
Rather than being a watchdog for all of us what they have become is a junkyard dog guarding the Democratic Party. Attacking and tearing apart anybody that opposes them.

394

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 12:57:56pm

re: #368 Creeping Eruption

Then that would be one victim and two inmates (hopefully)

I don't know how I'd feel about that, I'd need to ponder a bit. My first inclination would be that if the child did not survive, that would be punishment enough for following your faith. On the flip side, would you not want to set a example for the next foolish couple ? Tough call.

395

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 12:58:11pm

re: #385 SFGoth

I'm kind of curious as to what Michael Savage has to say about this fossil, not because I listen to him (I *rarely* do - on the few times I drive to work and want entertaining evening drive time radio), but because he has a PhD in some kind of biology field.

Michael Savage is actually VERY pro-evolution, but he doesn't like to talk about it on his show, lest he offend too many of his listeners. But a few times in the past he has slammed creationism. He has a PhD in plant biology.

396

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:58:18pm

re: #386 IslandLibertarian

Again, I say I'd like to see the statistics. I am willing to be EDUCATED as to the number of creationist Republican politicians.

Then why don't you research it. I just googled "republican creationist list" and came up with pages of articles speaking to republican politicians who have made it known that they are creationists.

Why can't you look into this yourself?

397

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:59:01pm

re: #390 calcajun

Gotta dust off my (30 year-old college)books on the 20's. It still does not sound right, though.

Sorry. It is right, unfortunately.

398

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 12:59:26pm

re: #395 zombie

Michael Savage is actually VERY pro-evolution, but he doesn't like to talk about it on his show, lest he offend too many of his listeners. But a few times in the past he has slammed creationism. He has a PhD in plant biology.

Makes him no better than Rush, if he is more worried about pleasing his audience than speaking to truth.

399

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 12:59:32pm

re: #388 sphincter

Then go hide in a corner.

400

LGoPs Tue, May 19, 2009 12:59:36pm

re: #387 calcajun

You and I might agree on the ID subject, but if and when the day comes that it gains scientific acceptance, it's a philosophy and not a science and should not be taught as such in public schools. Again, there's a dangerous precedent that will be set if this happens; chipping away at the Establishment Clause is a very bad thing.

I agree but I also think that day is a long way off. And the way that the left is shredding our Constitution as we speak that concern may well be a moot point.

401

rock-n-roll hurricane Tue, May 19, 2009 1:00:17pm

I think Sanford has invented his own theory - Regression. According to his analogies, unless God is continually propping us up, we should regress into mud and mosquitoes. He is the Anti-Darwin!

402

lawhawk Tue, May 19, 2009 1:00:18pm

Complainers will be sacked.
Complainers complaining about the sacking will be sacked.
Those who were sacking the sackers have themselves been sacked.

/it's a mønty pythøn kind of world.

403

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 1:00:31pm

re: #381 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'd like it to symbolize that he will Agincourt disaster.

You Waurin pun mode, I see.

404

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:02pm

I'll be back.

re: #399 Dianna

Then go hide in a corner.

405

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:10pm

re: #377 calcajun

I have to go back and look at that. I know the Klan was a huge force, but I cannot see them as ever having being allied with the Communists and/or Progressives in the Democratic Party of that era. Wouldn't the two be antithetical?

Not as much as you think they might be. There were Progressives in both parties. Harding may not have been a Progressive, but Hoover most certainly was. In the 1920s, the Dems ruled the South. They were at the heart of both the original KKK and its 1920s reincarnation. They were also the main political party of the folks of Dayton, Tennessee. Some Dems were Communists, particularly an elite from the North and Northeast (Amity Shales covers this well near the beginning of The Forgotten Man). They were as varied as they are today. In fact, it was a Progressive, William Jennings Bryan, a Democrat, who headed up the prosecution against John Scopes in Dayton, Tennessee. He was a Democrat, a Progressive, and a creationist.

406

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:18pm

I am complaining that there aren't more posts like this to comment on!

The SoCons have to know that they have lost fiscal conservatives, and holding up and anti-semite and social reactionary like Ron Paul as representing "fiscal conservatism" is an utter fucking joke.

Gold standard? Why don't we just re-impose a ban on lending while we are at it like the Islamists do.

That way we can shrink the economy, end business formation and expand penury and suffering in the name of fiscal morality.

407

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:19pm

re: #390 calcajun

Lincoln was a republican, and for several decades after the civil war racists, pro-confederates, and pro-secessionists aligned with the democrat party simply for that reason.

408

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:21pm

re: #389 Noam Chumpski

I think it's important to note that a bunch of Libertarians disrupting a Republican Convention isn't really something you can blame on the GOP. I don't see any Democrats there.

I'm tired of the GOP creationism crap as well, but the story here is that the Libertarian Party showed up to disrupt a GOP-organized event.

Or at least that's what the Libertarians are saying.

And the story details how REPUBLICANS defended the interruptions. Are you missing something?

409

SFGoth Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:35pm

re: #387 calcajun

You and I might agree on the ID subject, but if and when the day comes that it gains scientific acceptance, it's a philosophy and not a science and should not be taught as such in public schools. Again, there's a dangerous precedent that will be set if this happens; chipping away at the Establishment Clause is a very bad thing.

ID is the equivalent of working a maze out from the end, with carpenter's tools. You already know where you want to go and now you just have to saw your way back there, nailing stuff back together so it holds up. ID is nothing more than fabricating a comfortable explanation for something beyond your ability to explain, like ancients used to do with all kinds of natural phenomena.

410

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:37pm

re: #392 karmic_inquisitor

Anal sex tipping point

A very poor choice of words indeed. Someone of lesser taste might make sport of such an opportunity for sophomoric humor, but not me.

No, not me.
Certainly not me....

411

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 1:01:53pm

re: #383 Spare O'Lake

As the GOP veers to the right, has anyone noticed that Obama is moving quickly to occupy the centre-right?
His recent reversals on Gitmo and the torture issue are instructive, I think.

Before Obama's nomination, he was generally viewed as a blank page, a chameleon, a candidate who was prepared to be all things to all people.
Some even thought that Obama would, if necessary, end up somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun if necessary.

It was only later that Obama was labeled as a socialist and a communist. But that monniker may not stick on someone as shifty and ruthless as him.

I think Obama is licking his chops and moving in on the soft GOP centre for the political kill. And those who think the Dems will turn on Obama and self-destruct are, I fear, engaged in wishful thinking.

Yep, and pissing off some on the left as he does it, but where could they go ? i.e. Obama getting tough on illegals ?
link

412

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 1:02:11pm

re: #399 Dianna

Then go hide in a corner.

...with your finger in your sphincter.

413

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:02:22pm

re: #404 sphincter

I'll be back.

/

A pity. I'm distinctly tired of "waily! waily! We're doomed!"

414

LGoPs Tue, May 19, 2009 1:02:27pm

re: #402 lawhawk

Complainers will be sacked.
Complainers complaining about the sacking will be sacked.
Those who were sacking the sackers have themselves been sacked.

/it's a mønty pythøn kind of world.

Sack sack sack sack....sack sack sack sack. Saaaaack.....wonderful saaaaack.
/

415

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:02:43pm

re: #409 SFGoth

ID is the equivalent of working a maze out from the end, with carpenter's tools. You already know where you want to go and now you just have to saw your way back there, nailing stuff back together so it holds up. ID is nothing more than fabricating a comfortable explanation for something beyond your ability to explain, like ancients used to do with all kinds of natural phenomena.

You just explained religion.

416

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:02:45pm

re: #394 avanti

I don't know how I'd feel about that, I'd need to ponder a bit. My first inclination would be that if the child did not survive, that would be punishment enough for following your faith. On the flip side, would you not want to set a example for the next foolish couple ? Tough call.

Tough call my ass. So if I beat my kid to death because the bible told me not to spar the rod, I should get a pass? Fucking assinine logic.

417

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 1:03:12pm

re: #412 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm sorry. That was uncalled for. :(

418

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 1:03:18pm

419

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 1:04:08pm

good point. once we're doomed, who will post?

got me there.

re: #413 Dianna

A pity. I'm distinctly tired of "waily! waily! We're doomed!"

420

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 1:04:14pm

re: #416 Creeping Eruption

Tough call my ass. So if I beat my kid to death because the bible told me not to spar the rod, I should get a pass? Fucking assinine logic.

Gods will.
/

421

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 1:04:17pm

re: #388 sphincter

"I think Obama is licking his chops and moving in on the soft GOP centre for the political kill. And those who think the Dems will turn on Obama and self-destruct are, I fear, engaged in wishful thinking."

It is done. It is over. Any thought of combatting it is futile.

Jeez, this is one of the most "emo" things I've seen in a while on this board. It's only futile if you do nothing about it, and even if you don't win, at least you tried, and maybe inspired someone else to try as well.

422

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:04:21pm

re: #390 calcajun

Gotta dust off my (30 year-old college)books on the 20's. It still does not sound right, though.

I can tell you that at least in Georgia, the KKK was allied with the Democratic Party. Who do you think introduced Jim Crow? The lynching of Leo Frank (which happened about 6 or 7 miles from where I live) was not perpetrated by Republicans. And the Dead Shall Rise is an excellent recent book on the case.

423

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 1:04:33pm

re: #392 karmic_inquisitor

Yep. A "get along moderate".

Sadly, I was happy when he won in 2003.

424

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 1:04:58pm

re: #400 LGoPs

I'm reading Amity Shlaes' "The Forgotten Man" and right now, BHO is not really doing anything that has not already been done by FDR. The odd thing is that both this administration and the last seem to have learned from the mistakes of Hoover and FDR-- the massive printing of money could not have been done if we were on the gold or gold-silver standard. it also avoided the potential for the deflation which occurred in the early 30's.

What new mistakes will be made is the question right now.

425

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 1:05:37pm

re: #388 sphincter

"I think Obama is licking his chops and moving in on the soft GOP centre for the political kill. And those who think the Dems will turn on Obama and self-destruct are, I fear, engaged in wishful thinking."

It is done. It is over. Any thought of combatting it is futile.

Au contraire, toilet-breath.
- channeling Johnny Carson

426

SFGoth Tue, May 19, 2009 1:05:44pm

re: #415 Walter L. Newton

You just explained religion.

I know. :-> Think Notre Dame will give me an honorary?

427

Empire1 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:05:45pm

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey
'Scuse me, but what you describe below is an achievement. The crest is what appears on the helmet.

Cute.
A full-blown heraldic crest has a shield, with a device or devices and/or a pattern; two supporting figures (one on each side); a helmet, a lion's or Saracen's head, or some other device such as an arm holding a sword, above the shield; a scroll with a motto; and, if I recall, some sort of ground-line which may perhaps have a crouching animal figure.

There's a highly formalized language, largely in French with a sprinkling of Latin, to describe each of these elements; I've just done the shield device, and haven't the time to dig up a heraldic dictionary (I'm sure there's one online somewhere) to try and describe the rest. It would be fun, though.

428

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 1:05:46pm

re: #414 LGoPs

Sack sack sack sack....sack sack sack sack. Saaaaack.....wonderful saaaaack.
/

Yes, but the party is still being run by several thousand llamas.

429

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:06:00pm

re: #416 Creeping Eruption

Tough call my ass. So if I beat my kid to death because the bible told me not to spar the rod, I should get a pass? Fucking assinine logic.

But, that is exactly the logic a lot of religionist use to justify some of the things they do. The bible told me so. All we are talking about here is degrees. So, when do you decide that the freedom of religious practice needs to be interrupted by the state.

It's not a new problem, been around for a LONG time.

430

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:07:06pm

re: #423 eddiebear

Yep. A "get along moderate".

Sadly, I was happy when he won in 2003.

So was I. We are now worse off. He has discredited fiscal conservatism every bit as much as the SoCons have.

431

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 1:07:21pm

re: #403 MrSilverDragon

You Waurin pun mode, I see.

(full disclosure, I had to fletch a confirmation of who he was from wiki)

I'm sure he wished the French knights had arrows from the mud.

/but then, yew knew that

432

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 1:07:27pm

re: #422 doppelganglander

I'm from Louisiana--I know. But, I do recall that the KKK actually became very popular in the mid-west, especially in Indiana, which had been strong GOP territory.

433

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 1:08:13pm

re: #411 avanti

Thanks for that link. Isn't that one of the things the donks want to prosecute Joe Arpaio for?

434

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:08:17pm

re: #417 unrealizedviewpoint

but funny

435

Shr_Nfr Tue, May 19, 2009 1:08:19pm

I am a Pauled at the way the Republicans are committing suicide in plain view.

436

lawhawk Tue, May 19, 2009 1:08:30pm

re: #383 Spare O'Lake

I've got to disagree. I think it's reality that has forced Obama to move to the center on the national security issues. Going along with the far left of his party on detentions, Gitmo and all the rest was unsupported by the facts. It was a great soundbite, but lacked substance or sound judgment.

National security rests on more than just soundbites and the Democrats can't buy a clue on the Gitmo issue - now saying that they wont fund the Gitmo closure until the Administration comes up with an alternative (when Obama himself says that he wants it closed eventually). Everyone is actually satisfied with the status quo since the terrorists remain in custody and it's not in their own backyard, but the left wants it closed - and those detainees released, which is political suicide to Obama and most Democrats aren't that naive.

Obama isn't going to garner votes from the middle on this, because there's nothing there -there. He's doing what Bush did, and which Obama regularly railed against. It shows that Obama doesn't exactly stand for anything except that which he thinks will give him more power.

His economic policies are showing that the socialist tendencies are alive and well and Obama is intent on pushing them through regardless of the costs. His Administration has already started a war with the CIA over the EIT and the CIA is not going to lose that battle. Pelosi may be a casualty in that war. Lying about what you knew and when you knew it, and then smearing the CIA isn't going to get you ahead in DC, but it does keep the nutroots entertained.

437

BlueCanuck Tue, May 19, 2009 1:08:42pm

re: #418 Iron Fist

And after all that, blacks vote 90% for Democrats. I really don't understand that.

I think it's simple really. The dems and liberals took over the class rooms and rephrased the historic battles and fights. God help us if the Republicans, conservatives, and right ever stood up to something that was wrong or evil....

438

SFGoth Tue, May 19, 2009 1:08:42pm

re: #416 Creeping Eruption

Tough call my ass. So if I beat my kid to death because the bible told me not to spar the rod, I should get a pass? Fucking assinine logic.

There's no "ass" in asinine. I do like your unintended poetic misspelling -- "beat my kid to death ... spar the rod". Awright folks, this gothic conservatarian lawyer needs to get back to work kicking ingrates out of their below-market homes.

439

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:09:42pm

re: #432 calcajun

I'm from Louisiana--I know. But, I do recall that the KKK actually became very popular in the mid-west, especially in Indiana, which had been strong GOP territory.

Sadly, the Republican Party in Indiana and the KKK were closely intertwined.

440

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 1:10:01pm

re: #418 Iron Fist

She's right. Back when the South was the Democrat Solid South they were effectively an extension of the Klan (or the Klan was an extention of them; either way). All the names of the hard-core seggregationists are Democrats. Bull Connor was a Democrat. Orville Faubus was a Democrat (and it was the Republican Eisenhower that sent in the troops to enforce deseggregation). The people who stood in the doors of schoolhouses, who set loose the dogs and watercannon,
who filibustered the Civil Rights Act (hat tip: Kleagle Byrd), they were all Democrats.

And after all that, blacks vote 90% for Democrats. I really don't understand that.

They don't remember Eisenhower. They remember Kennedy and Johnson.

441

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:10:01pm

re: #420 unrealizedviewpoint

Gods will.
/

So is modern medicine. Maybe someone could explain that to me some day, not being particularly religious myself.

442

Empire1 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:10:42pm

re: #427 Empire1

'Scuse me, but what you describe below is an achievement. The crest is what appears on the helmet.

Left out this full description -- sorry!

443

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 1:10:50pm

444

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:11:22pm

re: #305 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well, you've updinged serious posts lying about me advocating terrorism against Paulians so it's pretty much impossible for me to tell the difference anymore. The personal attacks on me are getting increasingly bizarre and last night's outrage over me helping my morbidly obese neighbor were problably the sickest thing I can remember seeing here on LGF. The twisted attacks continued this morning. The hatred for me here is very palpable.

445

Shr_Nfr Tue, May 19, 2009 1:12:03pm

re: #142 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That is topologically equivalent to a tempest in a donut. But then again we have enough nuts around anyway. Of course a nut is not topologically equivalent to a donut, but what the heck. Nancy Pelosi is giving a whole new meaning to lie groups.

446

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:12:04pm

re: #432 calcajun

I'm from Louisiana--I know. But, I do recall that the KKK actually became very popular in the mid-west, especially in Indiana, which had been strong GOP territory.

The 1920s KKK became popular in mostly rural areas of the Midwest due to its anti-foreigner stance. It petered out by the late 1920s, almost as fast as it came to be. Before and after that, it was mostly a Southern, anti-Black thing.

447

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 1:12:44pm

Is moving near slim neighbors possible?

re: #444 Killgore Trout

Well, you've updinged serious posts lying about me advocating terrorism against Paulians so it's pretty much impossible for me to tell the difference anymore. The personal attacks on me are getting increasingly bizarre and last night's outrage over me helping my morbidly obese neighbor were problably the sickest thing I can remember seeing here on LGF. The twisted attacks continued this morning. The hatred for me here is very palpable.

448

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 1:13:02pm

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

Why can't you look into this yourself?

I most certainly will. And I'd like to see a more accurate statistic posted in the Article/Thread than the word "most". I am not contradicting here. I am making open minded queries.

449

itellu3times Tue, May 19, 2009 1:13:44pm

Heard Rush make some anti-evolution comment this morning.

The end of Rush as we've known him ... though his continued ignorance of things economic has probably been even worse.

450

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:13:57pm

re: #438 SFGoth

There's no "ass" in asinine. I do like your unintended poetic misspelling -- "beat my kid to death ... spar the rod". Awright folks, this gothic conservatarian lawyer needs to get back to work kicking ingrates out of their below-market homes.

Spar = unintended. ASSinine = intended.

A lawyer, huh? Shoulda' known.

451

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:14:36pm

re: #447 sphincter

Uncalled for, asshole! Why don't you go fuck yourself?

452

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:14:36pm

re: #432 calcajun

I'm from Louisiana--I know. But, I do recall that the KKK actually became very popular in the mid-west, especially in Indiana, which had been strong GOP territory.

In fact, there's a whole book about it: Citizen Klansmen.

Challenging traditional assumptions about the Klan, Moore argues that in Indiana the organization represented an extraordinarily wide cross section of white Protestant society. More than 25 percent of native-born men in the state became official members. Indeed, the Klan was many times larger than any of the veterans' organizations that flourished in Indiana at the same time and was even larger than the Methodist church, the state's leading Protestant denomination.

I knew the Klan had a presence in Indiana, but I had no idea it was so pervasive.

453

Noam Chumpski Tue, May 19, 2009 1:14:37pm

re: #408 Walter L. Newton

And the story details how REPUBLICANS defended the interruptions. Are you missing something?

So you've never been in public office, I guess. What would you like; for them to throw a total and absolute tantrum on camera about getting punk'd by a bunch of Paulian Libertarians at their own GOP convention?

That'll make great 6 o'clock news.

What you see is Gov. Mark Sanford trying hard to not piss off a portion of voters in S.C. who fancy themselves as Libertarian and who he would like to get to vote for him in the future. That's what you do in politics. Like it or not.

Maybe you would prefer that the Governor declare that Liberals and Libertarians have no place in his state and that he would do everything possible to have them move out?

That would look great for his next campaign commercial.

Politics is about getting re-elected. As soon as you realize that you'll be better off and understand why so many of these guys say and do such asinine and backwards things.

454

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, May 19, 2009 1:14:43pm

re: #444 Killgore Trout

You stink, and you dress funny. So there!
/;P

455

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 1:14:49pm

re: #429 Walter L. Newton

But, that is exactly the logic a lot of religionist use to justify some of the things they do. The bible told me so. All we are talking about here is degrees. So, when do you decide that the freedom of religious practice needs to be interrupted by the state.

It's not a new problem, been around for a LONG time.

Refusing blood transfusions comes to mind.

456

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:15:13pm

re: #444 Killgore Trout

Remarkably, I had no idea anyone had told any lies about you. Told jokes or made caustic remarks about some of your views, yes.

Wait, I seem to remember asking Walter not to pick a fight with you. Was that about something that happened last night? I wasn't in, last night, so I don't know anything about it.

Could you please tone down the "I'm being persecuted" bit?

457

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 1:15:17pm

re: #443 buzzsawmonkey

That's a little bit overmuch on the broad-brush side, since what somebody may consider "extreme belief(s)" on someone else's part is pretty subjective.

Just because someone considers another person's belief in, say, Mormonism or Orthodox Judaism "extreme" does not belief said Mormon or said Orthodox Jew has any interest in "sharing" those beliefs, as you put it--and by which you clearly mean inflicting or imposing those beliefs on others. Would it matter to anyone if Lieberman were to keep a kosher White House, were he elected President? No--yet keeping kosher is an "extreme belief" to some.

If someone running for office espoused, personally, a belief I considered "extreme," I would be concerned about it. But I would look to that person's record as to whether that belief had affected their voting or behavior in the past in areas relevant to their potential performance in the office they sought, to determine what the likelihood was that it would affect their future behavior.

Not all "extreme" beliefs are created equal; not all are equally bad.

Well, Jews aren't known for proselytization, but Mormon males spend a year on missionary pilgrimage.

458

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:15:26pm

the GOP

nothing there to look up to
nothing there to correct you
there's nothing further down
turn it off or turn around

John Hiatt
'Everybody Went Low'

459

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 1:15:45pm

re: #447 sphincter

IMO, that was uncalled for.

460

sphincter Tue, May 19, 2009 1:15:50pm

HY,

didn't mean to set you off. I'll go away now.

461

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 1:15:55pm

re: #436 lawhawk

I've got to disagree. I think it's reality that has forced Obama to move to the center on the national security issues. Going along with the far left of his party on detentions, Gitmo and all the rest was unsupported by the facts. It was a great soundbite, but lacked substance or sound judgment.

National security rests on more than just soundbites and the Democrats can't buy a clue on the Gitmo issue - now saying that they wont fund the Gitmo closure until the Administration comes up with an alternative (when Obama himself says that he wants it closed eventually). Everyone is actually satisfied with the status quo since the terrorists remain in custody and it's not in their own backyard, but the left wants it closed - and those detainees released, which is political suicide to Obama and most Democrats aren't that naive.

Obama isn't going to garner votes from the middle on this, because there's nothing there -there. He's doing what Bush did, and which Obama regularly railed against. It shows that Obama doesn't exactly stand for anything except that which he thinks will give him more power.
His economic policies are showing that the socialist tendencies are alive and well and Obama is intent on pushing them through regardless of the costs. His Administration has already started a war with the CIA over the EIT and the CIA is not going to lose that battle. Pelosi may be a casualty in that war. Lying about what you knew and when you knew it, and then smearing the CIA isn't going to get you ahead in DC, but it does keep the nutroots entertained.

I do not agree that we really disagree.
But in any case I do agree with your assessment i.e. "It shows that Obama doesn't exactly stand for anything except that which he thinks will give him more power."

462

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 1:16:35pm

re: #441 Creeping Eruption

So is modern medicine. Maybe someone could explain that to me some day, not being particularly religious myself.

I can't help.

463

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 1:17:21pm

re: #458 albusteve

John Hiatt
'Everybody Went Low'

Where's the link!? You're slippin'!

464

reloadingisnotahobby Tue, May 19, 2009 1:17:31pm

re: #446 Honorary Yooper
Was it not the 1920's that gave birth to the "Nation of Islam"
in the mid west?
That movement scared the pi$$ out of the Bible belters and
Northern Protestants which I think had a lot to do with
knee jerk reactions of the politician that listened to their constituents.......
My Grandad told us about that in the Clevland and Chicago area back then..........

465

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:17:51pm

re: #460 sphincter

HY,

didn't mean to set you off. I'll go away now.

Thank all good and patient deities.

466

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:18:08pm

re: #456 Dianna

Could you please tone down the "I'm being persecuted" bit?

I dealt with this before over the evolution posts. People get upset with reality and Charles' posts on certain topics think that running me off the blog will change things. Nothing new.

467

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:18:31pm

re: #444 Killgore Trout

Well, you've updinged serious posts lying about me advocating terrorism against Paulians so it's pretty much impossible for me to tell the difference anymore. The personal attacks on me are getting increasingly bizarre and last night's outrage over me helping my morbidly obese neighbor were problably the sickest thing I can remember seeing here on LGF. The twisted attacks continued this morning. The hatred for me here is very palpable.

Here's what Killgore posted last night, and you decide...

"Speaking of dikes and gardening......
My fat lesbian neighbor is trying to mow her lawn. She's so fat that she has to be in one of those scooter things. I try not to get too involved because I don't want to become somebody's care taker. A few weeks ago her knees gave out while trying to get a pile of cakes and cookies from her car to her house. It was really depressing bushing the dirt off frosting and helping her up again.
Well, I can't stand watching this so I'm off to mow a fucking lawn. Looks like it's going to gain soon."

I don't care what you say, that is one of the most crass things I have ever seen you post. With friends like you, who needs an enemy.

Maybe it's about time you self reflect a bit at what you have been posting here and maybe you'll get some insight on the anger at you.

I couldn't have even been that nasty.

468

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:18:43pm

re: #466 Killgore Trout

I dealt with this before over the evolution posts. People get upset with reality and Charles' posts on certain topics think that running me off the blog will change things. Nothing new.

Oh, utter nonsense.

469

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #452 doppelganglander

I knew the Klan had a presence in Indiana, but I had no idea it was so pervasive.

In the rest of the Midwest, we usually joke about Indiana being the most "Southern" of the Midwest states. Of course, this also applies to anything in Illinois south of US-50.

470

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 1:19:21pm

re: #219 avanti

A poll is a snapshot in time. It's too early for Democratic policies to have impacted the public yet. Once the huge increases in taxes, gasoline prices, and other costs of doing business and of living hit, the polling will change against the Democrats.

I'm hoping that Nancy Pelosi hangs on. Her lying to the American people in front of cameras is the gift that keeps on giving. It's as good as "I never had sex with that woman." Go, Nancy!

471

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:19:26pm

re: #467 Walter L. Newton

It would be extremely helpful if folks would not drag issues from thread to thread to thread to thread.

472

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:19:36pm

re: #467 Walter L. Newton

Not only did you overreact last night, you felt the need to bring it up this morning, and again this afternoon. I am not Killgore's biggest fan, but I think you need to give it a rest.

473

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:19:47pm

re: #463 wrenchwench

Where's the link!? You're slippin'!

Tiki Bar...I cant seem to pull up complete CDs anymore...I don't know what happened...awsome rocker tho...find it

474

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 1:20:12pm

re: #444 Killgore Trout

No hatred here, KT. Your nic alone redeemed you from the beginning.
Be Here Now..........

475

Leon77 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:20:30pm

Was almost in...

I have a litmus test. If you are a creationist, I will not and cannot vote for you. The more creationists one can count in a particular party, the less likely I am to vote for any member of that party. Just as I could never vote for anyone who thought the sun traveled around the earth. End of story.

476

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 1:20:57pm

477

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:21:28pm

re: #471 Dianna

It would be extremely helpful if folks would not drag issues from thread to thread to thread to thread.

Killgore brought it up again above, and earlier in another thread. I had dropped it last night.

He';s the one that has been whining away all day today.

478

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 1:21:50pm

re: #473 albusteve

I gotta fatten up my collection. The used bin at the shop across the street isn't cutting it.

479

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:21:58pm

re: #469 Honorary Yooper

In the rest of the Midwest, we usually joke about Indiana being the most "Southern" of the Midwest states. Of course, this also applies to anything in Illinois south of US-50.

South of Indianapolis, Indiana is as deep south, and redneck, as any place in Tennessee, Georgia or Alabama.

480

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 1:22:01pm

re: #471 Dianna

It would be extremely helpful if folks would not drag issues from thread to thread to thread to thread.

How else am I gonna keep up. I can't read every comment in every thread. :)

481

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:22:28pm

re: #477 Walter L. Newton

This is the first post of his I saw that mentioned it.

Your mentions were the ones I saw.

I repeat: dragging things from thread to thread to thread to thread is not helpful.

482

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:22:33pm

re: #463 wrenchwench

Where's the link!? You're slippin'!

Hiat...Everybody Went Low

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

483

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:22:34pm

Yipee! Purity is at hand, brothers and sisters!

Leviticus, Chapter 20

Stone those disobedient kids.

484

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:23:00pm

re: #472 doppelganglander

Not only did you overreact last night, you felt the need to bring it up this morning, and again this afternoon. I am not Killgore's biggest fan, but I think you need to give it a rest.

Killgore brought it up, himself, twice this morning, not me. I dropped it last night. It's HIM who has been whining today, a number of times. I'm certainly not going to let him flounce around here telling tales without some rebuttal.

485

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 1:23:21pm

re: #475 Leon77

Welcome, Leon77. Nice post, although I don't like to use the "litmus test" buzz words.

486

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 1:23:52pm

re: #476 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, they do. But that doesn't mean that Mitt Romney would try and impose Mormonism on America were he elected President, does it? Of course not.

If someone running for office both admitted to personal creationist views and had a good record as regarded science funding and keeping religion out of the science classroom, the fact that their personal views are not something I share would not pose an obstacle for me. If the candidate can keep the personal and political separate, so can I.

I would have taken Romney over McCain gladly.

487

[deleted] Tue, May 19, 2009 1:23:52pm

488

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:23:58pm

re: #482 albusteve

I'm back in the saddle

489

wrenchwench Tue, May 19, 2009 1:24:10pm

re: #482 albusteve

Hiat...Everybody Went Low

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

You rock!

490

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:24:16pm

re: #484 Walter L. Newton

KT may be whining - I'm not especially pleased with his "Pity me, I'm being persecuted for supporting Charles!" bit - but you're not helping the situation.

491

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:24:46pm

re: #478 wrenchwench

I gotta fatten up my collection. The used bin at the shop across the street isn't cutting it.

any of Hiatts stuff...especially a bit older....really good shit

492

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:24:56pm

re: #479 Son of the Black Dog

South of Indianapolis, Indiana is as deep south, and redneck, as any place in Tennessee, Georgia or Alabama.

Yep. Both there and southern Illinois. Odd thing is, about southern Illinois, they remained a Democratic stronghold after Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. Indiana seems to have followed the South in the other direction.

493

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:25:13pm

re: #487 buzzsawmonkey

The disobedient kids are already stoned, toking out in back of the 7-11.

LOL!

494

Flyovercountry Tue, May 19, 2009 1:25:29pm

Just when I think I've found a home politically, I find moon-bats on the same side of the aisle. Having a group of people calling themselves, "conservatives," because they have one issue to cling to, or just folks who can use an issue to allign their own nuttiness with what sounds reasonable, is going to drive me to form an independant party with a membership of one. There must be a place where sanity reigns both economically, educationally, and socially. I am tired of being told that we must accept idiocy for the good of, "the party."

495

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:25:53pm

re: #491 albusteve

any of Hiatts stuff...especially a bit older....really good shit

/A kid on the corner tried to sell me some really good shit, and told me it would get my Hiatt as hell.

496

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:25:57pm

re: #490 Dianna

KT may be whining - I'm not especially pleased with his "Pity me, I'm being persecuted for supporting Charles!" bit - but you're not helping the situation.

Agreed. I'll drop it. But if he ever post a comment again like the one I referenced, there is no way I am going to keep my mouth shut. And I won't back off if he keeps ragging me about it. He had his say last night, I had mine.

497

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 1:26:21pm

re: #342 callahan23

A neighbor of mine has two Maine Coon cats. They're great!

498

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:27:15pm

re: #492 Honorary Yooper

Yep. Both there and southern Illinois. Odd thing is, about southern Illinois, they remained a Democratic stronghold after Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. Indiana seems to have followed the South in the other direction.

I was quite surprised when the state went for Obama. I guess there is so much auto related unemployment that a lot of dissatisfied people voted for "change".

499

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 1:27:54pm

Just sayin'

There is, indeed, a degree of polarization between certain lizards and others.

I'm calling out that polarization (and not the lizards who are involved), not because of some touchy-feely "Can't We All Just Get Along", but because it inevitably leads to irrationality and the lowering of the general level of discussion.

In my humble (and possibly mistaken opinion), LGF is about a quest for knowledge.

500

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:28:45pm

re: #499 pre-Boomer Marine brat

...

In my humble (and possibly mistaken opinion), LGF is about a quest for knowledge.

Hear! Hear!

501

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:28:46pm

Just Like Your Dad Did

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

502

Mithrax Tue, May 19, 2009 1:29:00pm

re: #499 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In my humble (and possibly mistaken opinion), LGF is about a quest for knowledge.

What the hell am I gonna do with this Shrubbery then?!?! :P

503

callahan23 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:29:08pm

re: #497 quickjustice

A neighbor of mine has two Maine Coon cats. They're great!

Big, gentle, good looking and very good hunters.
No cats for cuddling. They like to be in the presence of their people though.

504

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 1:29:48pm

re: #499 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Well stated.

505

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 1:29:55pm

re: #476 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, they do. But that doesn't mean that Mitt Romney would try and impose Mormonism on America were he elected President, does it? Of course not.

If someone running for office both admitted to personal creationist views and had a good record as regarded science funding and keeping religion out of the science classroom, the fact that their personal views are not something I share would not pose an obstacle for me. If the candidate can keep the personal and political separate, so can I.

I don't disagree with you on that point; I was simply remarking that Mormons do indeed proselytize. I know a good bit about Mormons because one of my uncles is a Mormon bishop. He knows that I am a long-time Pagan, and still has always treated me with affection and respect, and helped me when I cared for my invalid mother. He answered any questions I asked him about his religion, but never tried to push his faith on me. I know of no finer man, and no one whom I would trust more completely with my personal possessions.

506

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:30:03pm

re: #495 Creeping Eruption

/A kid on the corner tried to sell me some really good shit, and told me it would get my Hiatt as hell.

extra pts for Hiatt....god one

507

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 1:30:39pm

re: #502 Mithrax

What the hell am I gonna do with this Shrubbery then?!?! :P

plant it out front with another shrubbery, only that one is slightly smaller. Then we'll have a little path that runs in between (a path! a path!)

508

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 1:30:46pm

re: #503 callahan23

I'm partial to Himalayans, myself. They are cuddly, long-hair cats, and very affectionate.

509

Desert Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:30:53pm

Meanwhile, back in Detroit, there's dark clouds on the horizon.....

GM to declare bankruptcy and the sell assets to Government

I can hardly wait for the Feds to start make some stylin' cars! Ya baby!

510

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:30:59pm

re: #467 Walter L. Newton

Your obsessive outrage over me helping a dying woman makes no sense to me whatsoever and leads me to believe this is really about something else. She can barley walk now and has great difficulty getting in and out of her car. I'd guess she has 6 months to a year left to live. I mowed her lawn and this morning trimmed her hedges. I'm going to haul away yard debris and garbage for her latter this week.

511

callahan23 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:31:05pm

re: #499 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DING
A thousand if only I could.

512

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 1:31:11pm

re: #502 Mithrax

What the hell am I gonna do with this Shrubbery then?!?! :P

Perhaps you could get another shrubbery and set them up with a slighty two level effect with a path between them.

513

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:31:15pm

re: #467 Walter L. Newton

I'm a little confused what the problem is. Around here, fat activists have aggressively "reclaimed" the word fat, and use it to describe themselves -- with pride. Magazines like "Fat! So?" are becoming more popular. I knew even some very non-radical, mainstream women who have adopted the meme and openly refer to themselves as "fat," and even go so far as to correct people who try to be dainty and use eupemisms. It's commonplace now.

As for "lesbian" -- how is that disparaging? I know hundreds of lesbians and not a single one is embarrassed or ashamed of the word lesbian. Half the non-profits in SF are the "Lesbian and Gay such and such" organization. Again, no shame associated with the word.

I've known people to refer to themselves as "fat lesbians," because that's what they are and they are not embarrassed by the terminology. And since they're usually into the whole identity politics thing, they love to bring up their out-and-proud sub-group status as often as possible.

I guess it's OK to describe some people, but not others, due to some over-arching social rule?

514

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 1:31:46pm

re: #507 ConservatismNow!

plant it out front with another shrubbery, only that one is slightly smaller. Then we'll have a little path that runs in between (a path! a path!)

USONUVABITCH!

515

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:32:13pm

re: #484 Walter L. Newton

Killgore brought it up, himself, twice this morning, not me. I dropped it last night. It's HIM who has been whining today, a number of times. I'm certainly not going to let him flounce around here telling tales without some rebuttal.

That's completely untrue. Here's your first mention of it, on the Red Museum thread. You were responding to KT's comment which was about doubter444, not you or the incident from last night.

I see in your #496 you've agreed to drop it, and I will take you at your word.

516

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:32:43pm

re: #494 Flyovercountry

Just when I think I've found a home politically, I find moon-bats on the same side of the aisle. Having a group of people calling themselves, "conservatives," because they have one issue to cling to, or just folks who can use an issue to allign their own nuttiness with what sounds reasonable, is going to drive me to form an independant party with a membership of one. There must be a place where sanity reigns both economically, educationally, and socially. I am tired of being told that we must accept idiocy for the good of, "the party."

I'll be launching an ideology soon with which I think you'll like to identify. Look for it.

517

Wendya Tue, May 19, 2009 1:33:04pm

re: #509 Desert Dog

Meanwhile, back in Detroit, there's dark clouds on the horizon.....

GM to declare bankruptcy and the sell assets to Government

I can hardly wait for the Feds to start make some stylin' cars! Ya baby!

The union will end up owning GM.

518

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 1:33:11pm

re: #514 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

USONUVABITCH!

*MWAH*

How's the 40k going?

519

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 1:33:19pm

re: #471 Dianna

It would be extremely helpful if folks would not drag issues from thread to thread to thread to thread.

You mean it's a kind of a drag?

Youtube Video

520

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:34:01pm

re: #510 Killgore Trout

Your obsessive outrage over me helping a dying woman makes no sense to me whatsoever and leads me to believe this is really about something else. She can barley walk now and has great difficulty getting in and out of her car. I'd guess she has 6 months to a year left to live. I mowed her lawn and this morning trimmed her hedges. I'm going to haul away yard debris and garbage for her latter this week.

very cool....x2 even

521

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:34:23pm

re: #517 Wendya

It looks like they modified the deal. I read an article this morning that the bondholders are going to be paid in full.

522

Mithrax Tue, May 19, 2009 1:34:54pm

re: #517 Wendya

The union will end up owning GM.

Curious to see what happens to the overseas parts, if they will be sold off, kept, or mothballed.

523

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 1:35:16pm

re: #515 doppelganglander

Well said.

524

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:35:19pm

Oh for fucks sake:

Advocacy Groups Seek Disbarment of Ex-Bush Administration Lawyers

525

Mich-again Tue, May 19, 2009 1:35:26pm

re: #510 Killgore Trout

You are a good neighbor. She is lucky for that.

526

Russkilitlover Tue, May 19, 2009 1:35:35pm

re: #509 Desert Dog

Meanwhile, back in Detroit, there's dark clouds on the horizon.....

GM to declare bankruptcy and the sell assets to Government

And right on cue, it's "Bend over taxpayers!"

In addition, the government would extend a credit line to the new company and forgive the bulk of the $15.4 billion in emergency loans that the U.S. has already provided to GM, the source said.

527

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 1:36:01pm

re: #499 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Just sayin'

There is, indeed, a degree of polarization between certain lizards and others.

I'm calling out that polarization (and not the lizards who are involved), not because of some touchy-feely "Can't We All Just Get Along", but because it inevitably leads to irrationality and the lowering of the general level of discussion.

In my humble (and possibly mistaken opinion), LGF is about a quest for knowledge.

I have found the best solution to a personal
attack is to ignore the individual. I may come back and try to make peace later, but occasionally, some folks just don't like you.

528

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:36:07pm

re: #520 albusteve

I really don't want to become her caretaker. I'm not equipped financially or emotionally for the job. I'm very concerned about getting drafted into the position. It's a very sad situation and it really bums me out.

529

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:36:15pm

re: #516 zombie

I'll be launching an ideology soon with which I think you'll like to identify. Look for it.

I've been looking forward to it. Have you got a name now?

530

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 1:36:20pm

re: #509 Desert Dog

After the Chrysler debacle, nothing is a surprise. This is an outrage nonetheless. Take government money, and screw your senior secured creditors (including retiree pension funds) in favor of the unions. Chrysler's and GM's management and boards of directors should be sued for breach of fiduciary duty to creditors. Treasury should be sued for Fifth Amendment takings of property. Except that Treasury also controls the banks, so the bank creditors will act in Obama's interests, not those of its stockholders.

Obama Administration: the Puppet Master pulling all of the strings. And the GOP is too dumb to figure this out.

531

debutaunt Tue, May 19, 2009 1:36:32pm

re: #516 zombie

I'll be launching an ideology soon with which I think you'll like to identify. Look for it.

I'm a thin non-lesbian.

532

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:36:43pm

re: #527 avanti

I have found the best solution to a personal
attack is to ignore the individual. I may come back and try to make peace later, but occasionally, some folks just don't like you.

I love you avanti

533

lawhawk Tue, May 19, 2009 1:36:52pm

re: #524 Creeping Eruption

That's a neat trick particularly when Obama's own Justice Department is using Bush Administration legal documents to support its own arguments in other legal proceedings.

It's a witch hunt and these leftists could care less what happens to national security or the rule of law for that matter.

534

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 1:37:00pm

re: #502 Mithrax

What the hell am I gonna do with this Shrubbery then?!?! :P

We'll put you in touch with the Knights that say "Neet!"

535

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:37:04pm

re: #522 Mithrax

Curious to see what happens to the overseas parts, if they will be sold off, kept, or mothballed.

Me too considering I drive a Saab.

536

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:37:40pm

re: #510 Killgore Trout

re: #513 zombie

Now, who is it that doesn't want to drop this. As I said in my comment above, I'll drop it.

I'm sorry, if anyone here can take those statements by Killgore as anything but crass and mean, then I'll shoot myself.

I don't care what Killgore has done for the lady, if that's the way he talks about her, than I wouldn't want his help.

How about if I called some neighbor a "ugly fag" or an old woman a "liver-spotted hag?"

I don't care if there is a "Liver Spotted Hag" magazine, that doesn't make it all right to use language about people like that. Hell, there are porn magazines about eating shit during sex, but that doesn't make it acceptable by the general population.

Zombie, you're mention of the magazine is a strawman.

I will drop it now. Killgore will give himself enough rope, and someday insult you, or others here, there will be a point when his whining and crassness will finally be too much for anyone here.

537

jimmyk Tue, May 19, 2009 1:38:18pm

re: #60 Walter L. Newton

Then if you don't like the way the host (Charles) runs this blog, go somewhere else.

This is how your respond to someone who expresses a dissenting point of view?

538

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:38:33pm

re: #528 Killgore Trout

I really don't want to become her caretaker. I'm not equipped financially or emotionally for the job. I'm very concerned about getting drafted into the position. It's a very sad situation and it really bums me out.

This might be more than you want to do, but perhaps you could direct her to some local resources that can help. It can be overwhelming and exhausting for a sick person to find the help they need.

539

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:38:36pm

re: #529 doppelganglander

I've been looking forward to it. Have you got a name now?

Nope. Not yet. The last sticking point.

540

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:39:05pm

re: #528 Killgore Trout

I really don't want to become her caretaker. I'm not equipped financially or emotionally for the job. I'm very concerned about getting drafted into the position. It's a very sad situation and it really bums me out.

yes of course...my wife and I took on much of the care of my dying neighbor years ago...we just loved the old guy to pieces and did for that reason alone because is wife just could not handle it....it was a very long several months, but looking back at all the trouble I'd do it again in a heartbeat

541

Zimriel Tue, May 19, 2009 1:39:17pm

re: #83 DaddyG

If the GOP would drop fostering a particular religion in schools and get back to limiting government and promoting individual rights I daresay you would see fewer threads on the subject.

Pretty much. I've said this before but I may as well repeat it: I'm sick of this topic too; but that's the fault of the GOP and not of people like Charles who are doing their duty by relaying the bad news.

542

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 1:39:22pm

re: #517 Wendya

That should end well.

543

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 1:39:47pm

re: #539 zombie

Nope. Not yet. The last sticking point.

Captain Zombie's Old Fashioned Happy Fun Time Jamboree!

544

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 1:40:15pm

re: #509 Desert Dog

Meanwhile, back in Detroit, there's dark clouds on the horizon.....

GM to declare bankruptcy and the sell assets to Government

I can hardly wait for the Feds to start make some stylin' cars! Ya baby!

Does the word "Trabant" mean anything? Government cars like the British made in the 70's. Very nice, indeed.

545

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:40:18pm

re: #543 ConservatismNow!

Captain Zombie's Old Fashioned Happy Fun Time Jamboree!

I think I used to watch that. On Saturday nights, the double movie feature, right?

546

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:40:43pm

re: #539 zombie

Nope. Not yet. The last sticking point.

I shall put on my thinking cap. I'm normally pretty good with this word stuff. I remember the previous discussions and what your objections were to some of the other suggestions.

547

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:40:49pm

re: #510 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I went back and read the comment, in context. It was in very poor taste the words you chose to describe her and the situation, IMHO. I appreciate that you helped her, but the terminology left something to be desired. It was, shall we say, a bit uncouth.

Hers is a tragic situation. I hope you were able to help her.

548

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 1:41:07pm

re: #543 ConservatismNow!

Captain Zombie's Old Fashioned Happy Fun Time Jamboree!

Big ol' upding for the guffaw that just came out of my mouth!

549

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 1:41:16pm

re: #518 ConservatismNow!

*MWAH*

How's the 40k going?

Not bad, figuring out the nuances of the new Cadian forces, going stormtrooper and grenadier heavy, using Uruskar Creed and Kell, got to pick up some Valkryie this week.

550

Mithrax Tue, May 19, 2009 1:41:17pm

re: #535 Creeping Eruption

Me too considering I drive a Saab.

I'm at ground zero for GM Canada.

551

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:41:18pm

re: #536 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, I didn't realize that there had been a previous big argument about this. I missed the thread where it started yesterday and just now became aware of the dispute.

I will now gracefully exit the discussion and will no longer participate in it.

552

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:41:44pm

re: #539 zombie

Nope. Not yet. The last sticking point.

The Sane Party?

Or, given your name, how about the Donner Party?

553

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:41:47pm

what time is it?

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

554

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:41:49pm

re: #536 Walter L. Newton

He was explaining. Please, enough.

555

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 1:42:18pm

re: #532 albusteve

I love you avanti

"I know"

556

callahan23 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:42:58pm

re: #508 quickjustice

I'm partial to Himalayans, myself. They are cuddly, long-hair cats, and very affectionate.

My mother-in-law has two Himalayans of both sexes. Every time I am visiting I'll play with them and they'll leave scratch marks on my arms.
Not happening with my female ( ! ) Maine Coon. She just doesn't use her claws on her humans.

557

Russkilitlover Tue, May 19, 2009 1:43:02pm

re: #530 quickjustice

GM should get its ass into bankruptcy court long before June 1. Let the rule of law determine outcomes, not the strong arm of the government.

558

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 1:43:11pm

re: #549 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I need to rework my Catachans. I'm excited!

559

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:43:29pm

re: #555 avanti

"I know"

Still doesn't make you Han Solo.
/heh.

560

Desert Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:43:35pm

re: #544 calcajun

Does the word "Trabant" mean anything? Government cars like the British made in the 70's. Very nice, indeed.

Yes, I am looking forward to the new cars that Detroit aka Washington aka UAW Motors will build. I am certain they will be great cars....NOT

561

Flyovercountry Tue, May 19, 2009 1:43:38pm

Re #96

One of the truly amazing things about the evolution of life on earth is that it really does fly in the face of the entropy laws of thermodynamics.

No, it doesn't. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

There is also an important point here which is taught in any high school physics class. These, "laws," apply to ideal gasses. Einstein changed the way the universe works. Certainly, creation of the universe is well beyond standard temperature and pressure, ( I'm guessing anyhow.)

562

Mithrax Tue, May 19, 2009 1:44:00pm

re: #558 ConservatismNow!

I need to rework my Catachans. I'm excited!

*sings Mighty Mighty Vostroya*

563

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 1:44:28pm

re: #555 avanti

"I know"

To break the seriousness ...

564

debutaunt Tue, May 19, 2009 1:44:29pm

re: #554 Dianna

He was explaining. Please, enough.

Kinda like the dog that continues with increasingly softer growls to get in the last growl.

565

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 1:44:42pm

re: #539 zombie

Nope. Not yet. The last sticking point.

Have you thought of maybe the Steward Party?

1: one employed in a large household or estate to manage domestic concerns (as the supervision of servants, collection of rents, and keeping of accounts)
3: a fiscal agent
5: one who actively directs affairs : manager

566

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 1:44:56pm

re: #559 Honorary Yooper

Still doesn't make you Han Solo.
/heh.

I'm more like Pizza the Hut.

567

Zimriel Tue, May 19, 2009 1:45:06pm

re: #499 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Just sayin'

There is, indeed, a degree of polarization between certain lizards and others.

To the degree I've contributed to that lowering of discourse, and on occasion I have, I may as well point out here that I didn't mean any of it personally.

568

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:45:49pm

re: #566 avanti

I'm more like Pizza the Hut.

I'm Barf, over here.

569

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:46:26pm

re: #568 Guanxi88

I'm Barf, over here.

At least, that's what my boss thinks of me.

570

Walter L. Newton Tue, May 19, 2009 1:46:29pm

re: #554 Dianna

He was explaining. Please, enough.

I've dropped it.

571

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:46:33pm

re: #568 Guanxi88

Eating, here!

572

jimmyk Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:04pm

re: #139 Charles

Oh yeah, I'm terribly obsessed.

Describing the Republican Party as "a party going completely off the rails and into the weeds," based largely on this one issue strikes me as, at the very least, disproportionate. And the reactions of others here to mildly dissenting views is also a bit over the top.

573

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:06pm

re: #571 Dianna

Eating, here!

"Always when I'm eating." Barf, Spaceballs

574

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:14pm

re: #528 Killgore Trout

I really don't want to become her caretaker. I'm not equipped financially or emotionally for the job. I'm very concerned about getting drafted into the position. It's a very sad situation and it really bums me out.

Maybe she could get her scooter thingy fitted with a lawn mower attachment.
Also, please be careful, if she falls and lands on top of you there could be legal trouble.

575

ihateronpaul Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:15pm

Hmmm something tells me the GOP will crash and burn by "appealing to the base" with the base being evangelical homophobic rednecks that think they "understand" the constitution better than us.

576

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:18pm

re: #524 Creeping Eruption

Bill Clinton eventually was disbarred. This is more of the left's attempt to punish members of the Bush Administration for disagreeing with them on policy issues by accusing them of crimes. It's tantamount to sending political opponents to the guillotine during the French Revolution.

The left should be careful: when they're next out of power, it's likely that the partisan right will adopt such tactics against the Obama Administration.

577

Desert Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:29pm

re: #568 Guanxi88

I'm Barf, over here.

"I'm a Mog. Half Man, Half Dog. I'm my own best friend"

578

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:32pm

re: #567 Zimriel

To the degree I've contributed to that lowering of discourse, and on occasion I have, I may as well point out here that I didn't mean any of it personally.

I do, as I am a vicious SOB !

((((just ask co-corkers, ex employees I had, and any number of ex girlfreinds up to and including my wife of 20 years as of today!)))

/////

579

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:36pm

From here out I am untethered by "good of the party" in tolerating the inane proclamations made in my name by imbeciles who seek to use government to establish a social order fashioned on an ideological conception of a past that never was.

A past of supposed Christian virtue that was supposedly universally held and that supposedly governed behavior in keeping with religious tenets emanating from the Bible.

Since I am no longer part of the GOP, when I encounter such individuals I will unload on them without restraint. I will tell them to open a history book and tell where in it an America of "traditional values" existed.

I will point out the contemporaneous events that prove them wrong.

Depending on my mood I will mock them, yell at them or simply dismiss them as the imbeciles they are.

I will no longer allow them to treat me as they have - we went quietly for the "good of the party". Many of us are no longer members as we have been told that we are no longer welcome. I am quiet no more.

580

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 1:47:51pm

re: #571 Dianna

Eating, here!

LOL, it's a character name from "Spaceballs".

581

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:48:19pm

re: #577 Desert Dog

"I'm a Mog. Half Man, Half Dog. I'm my own best friend"

sitting in the corner licking yourself, are ya !?!?!

582

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 1:48:20pm

OT: Image: 228347839_5f5529d352.jpg

583

UncleRancher Tue, May 19, 2009 1:48:25pm

Don't you see what's going on here?
Politician A makes a public statement designed to raise hackles in the party opposite.
Politician B sends out maybe a million letters asking for donations to help put Politician A in her place.
Next month they reverse roles.
That's how they get your money.

584

Digital Display Tue, May 19, 2009 1:48:29pm

re: #528 Killgore Trout

I really don't want to become her caretaker. I'm not equipped financially or emotionally for the job. I'm very concerned about getting drafted into the position. It's a very sad situation and it really bums me out.

Good Afternoon Lizards...
You may well not be equipped Financially.. But I think the emotional growth and gains you recieve by being a good neighbor and showing care and love for a sick person will far outweigh any emotional loss you may fear losing..You can never be bummed out by giving to and helping people.I hope you find direction and peace with your neighbor..

585

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 1:48:39pm

re: #536 Walter L. Newton

I will drop it now.
...........after that rant? suuuurrrrrrre..................

586

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:48:45pm

re: #565 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Have you thought of maybe the Steward Party?

1: one employed in a large household or estate to manage domestic concerns (as the supervision of servants, collection of rents, and keeping of accounts)
3: a fiscal agent
5: one who actively directs affairs : manager

Not yet, but now it's added to the list.

Also remember: not a party, but an ideology/orientation.

587

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:10pm

re: #574 Spare O'Lake

Maybe she could get her scooter thingy fitted with a lawn mower attachment.
Also, please be careful, if she falls and lands on top of you there could be legal trouble.

I think we need to change our system of weights and measures here in the States. I would love to opine as to how many "stones" something weighs.

588

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:11pm

re: #513 zombie

Self acceptance is liberation.

589

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:13pm

re: #586 zombie

Not yet, but now it's added to the list.

Also remember: not a party, but an ideology/orientation.

I return to my recommendation - Sane.

590

Desert Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:32pm

re: #581 sattv4u2

sitting in the corner licking yourself, are ya !?!?!

If I could, I would never leave the house! click

591

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:33pm

re: #584 HoosierHoops

Good Afternoon Lizards...
You may well not be equipped Financially.. But I think the emotional growth and gains you recieve by being a good neighbor and showing care and love for a sick person will far outweigh any emotional loss you may fear losing..You can never be bummed out by giving to and helping people.I hope you find direction and peace with your neighbor..

on the other hand...good fences make good neighbors

592

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:42pm

re: #580 MrSilverDragon

LOL, it's a character name from "Spaceballs".

I know - but my mind's eye presented something else.

593

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:43pm

re: #578 sattv4u2

I do, as I am a vicious SOB !

((((just ask co-corkers, ex employees I had, and any number of ex girlfreinds up to and including my wife of 20 years as of today!)))

/////

Happy anniversary! You couldn't be too bad if she's put up with you this long! ;)

594

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:45pm

re: #585 IslandLibertarian

I will drop it now.
...........after that rant? suuuurrrrrrre..................

Wha ,,, Walter ,,, RANT !?!?!? never !

595

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 1:49:51pm

re: #567 Zimriel

To the degree I've contributed to that lowering of discourse, and on occasion I have, I may as well point out here that I didn't mean any of it personally.

OK, before we all break out in a group hug, someone insult me so I know I'm awake.

596

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:34pm

re: #539 zombie

Nope. Not yet. The last sticking point.

aombieideology

597

Desert Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:38pm

re: #595 avanti

OK, before we all break out in a group hug, someone insult me so I know I'm awake.

Hey Avanti, YOU SUCK

you're welcome

598

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:38pm

re: #595 avanti

OK, before we all break out in a group hug, someone insult me so I know I'm awake.

I wouldn't give you the satisfaction.

599

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:46pm

re: #558 ConservatismNow!

I need to rework my Catachans. I'm excited!

They took a whole squad of Sentinels from me off the bat, plus the Valkyrie are FA, so that took out another squad. So right now, I'm running

Creed/Kell with Ordnance master and 2 body guards

3 Stormtrooper squads with Plasma rifles x2

Platoon command with sniper rifles, 2 infantrysquads with AC and GL
2 Mortar Teams
2 Missile Launcher Teams

2 Veteran Grenadiers with Melta x2 and heavy flamer in Chimera

2 Armored Sentinel Squads (3) with Multi-laser x2 and Lascannon

1 Valkyrie squad (3) with multi-laser and rocket pods

1 Leman Russ Exterminator with HB(x3)
2 Leman Russ with Lascannon and HB sponson

with a Baneblade sitting in the wings

600

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:51pm

re: #576 quickjustice

Bill Clinton eventually was disbarred. This is more of the left's attempt to punish members of the Bush Administration for disagreeing with them on policy issues by accusing them of crimes. It's tantamount to sending political opponents to the guillotine during the French Revolution.

The left should be careful: when they're next out of power, it's likely that the partisan right will adopt such tactics against the Obama Administration.

I am for Clinton being disbarred. He was impeached. He lied under oath. This is a no-brainer for me and I voted for him.

601

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:53pm

re: #593 doppelganglander

Happy anniversary! You couldn't be too bad if she's put up with you this long! ;)

We go out 4 times a week

I go Tuesdays and Fridays, she goes Thursdays and Saturdays!

602

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:54pm

re: #536 Walter L. Newton

I'm sorry, if anyone here can take those statements by Killgore as anything but crass and mean, then I'll shoot myself.

Shoot yourself.

603

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 1:50:57pm

re: #578 sattv4u2

my wife of 20 years as of today

Congratulations!

604

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 1:51:11pm

re: #595 avanti

OK, before we all break out in a group hug, someone insult me so I know I'm awake.

You...um...hold political opinions that are different from mine! You and your different opinions! Take that!

605

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 1:51:18pm

re: #596 turn

that would b zombieideology, wtf how did that happen?

606

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 1:51:35pm

re: #552 Guanxi88

Donner Party?

Table for five?/

607

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:51:53pm

re: #589 Guanxi88

I return to my recommendation - Sane.

It's been discussed at length before. And my objections then still obtain. Trying to avoid appearing "superior" or snooty.

608

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 1:52:12pm

re: #586 zombie

Not yet, but now it's added to the list.

Also remember: not a party, but an ideology/orientation.

OK, but being a good steward of our environment, nation, resources and economy could be considered a worth ideology

609

ConservatismNow! Tue, May 19, 2009 1:52:13pm

re: #606 calcajun

Table for five?/

Party Of 50! I mean 49! I mean 48! I mean 47...

610

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 1:52:15pm

re: #556 callahan23

They can get a bit scratchy, but I don't think it malicious. They also love to be in non-scratch contact with their humans. I have no doubt that Maine Coons are everything you describe.

611

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:52:19pm

re: #603 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Congratulations!

thank you

612

UncleRancher Tue, May 19, 2009 1:52:23pm

re: #606 calcajun

Table for five?/

Four and a half.

613

Desert Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:52:48pm

re: #609 ConservatismNow!

Party Of 50! I mean 49! I mean 48! I mean 47...

"hey, where's Bob?"

"Uhh, burp, I don't know.....burp..."

614

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:52:52pm

re: #605 turn

that would b zombieideology, wtf how did that happen?

You are forgiven.

615

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:53:06pm

re: #607 zombie

It's been discussed at length before. And my objections then still obtain. Trying to avoid appearing "superior" or snooty.

Look, it's not my fault if a whole bunch of raving, drooling lunatics take offense.

616

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:53:08pm

re: #612 UncleRancher

Four and a ~~half~~ head.

617

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 1:53:17pm

re: #575 ihateronpaul

Hmmm something tells me the GOP will crash and burn by "appealing to the base" with the base being evangelical homophobic rednecks that think they "understand" the constitution better than us.

Isn't that how Rove won?

618

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:53:29pm

white boy blues...cool song if y'all can quit bickerin long enough to hear it...otherwise it's your loss

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

619

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:54:00pm

re: #617 unrealizedviewpoint

Isn't that how Rove won?

consistently!

620

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:54:02pm

re: #608 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK, but being a good steward of our environment, nation, resources and economy could be considered a worth ideology

"Stewardship" is already in common usage in the environmental scene - - i.e. we are "stewards" of the earth.

621

Honorary Yooper Tue, May 19, 2009 1:54:33pm

re: #566 avanti

I'm more like Pizza the Hut.

Keep this up, and you'll dig yourself out of that karma hole.

622

Zimriel Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:00pm

re: #366 Dianna

The Democrats of the 1920's were a coalition of the Communists and the KKK. Not the GOP.

Well, not really. In the North the Communists supported international socialist parties. I think that in the 1920s, the Democrats were still stuck with Woodrow Wilson's legacy. Wilson was staunchly anti Communist (being a national socialist himself).

Also, Communists were involving themselves in the civil-rights movement; the textbook case would be Scottsboro. The Communists weren't going to get anywhere in that era's Democratic Party that way.

623

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:03pm

re: #621 Honorary Yooper

Keep this up, and you'll dig yourself out of that karma hole.

not likely

624

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:04pm

re: #621 Honorary Yooper

Keep this up, and you'll dig yourself out of that karma hole.

He doesn't have enough shovels!

625

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:05pm

re: #584 HoosierHoops

I think I might try to make some calls to charities or something to see if there's something that can be done. So for I don't even know if she knows it was me. I knocked last night and this morning before I started work but got no answer. She didn't come out when I was working. I was actually starting to think she might be dead but I saw her pick up her mail about an hour ago. She used to have friends stop by but I haven't seen any visitors there for the past year or so. Portland does have a lot of social services so there might be someone who can help.

626

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:34pm

re: #615 Guanxi88

Look, it's not my fault if a whole bunch of raving, drooling lunatics take offense.

//

I hear ya. "Sane" is the best descriptor, I just feel it won't "go over" too well among those who don't like some part of it.

627

eschew_obfuscation Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:35pm

re: #560 Desert Dog

Yes, I am looking forward to the new cars that Detroit aka Washington aka UAW Motors will build. I am certain they will be great cars....NOT

My guess..... There will be no color options; all cars will be green. They will get 50 miles/gallon, weigh 200 lbs, crush like notebook paper in an accident, and sell for $10,000 per copy after a $40,000 government rebate. They will be powered by methane from recaptured bovine emissions giving them a top speed of 20 mph.....going down hill.....with a following breeze.

Because of their low price, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan...... will no longer be able to compete in the U.S. and will begin making high-priced Cadillac knock-offs in China for those who still have any money and want "American" luxury car.

.... and the planet will continue to warm because the FUCKING SUN is becoming more active..... (maybe we haven't spent enough to reduce our carbon footprint yet?) .... Oh Look! A coal-fired power plant!

628

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:40pm

re: #579 karmic_inquisitor

I always like to point to this when people bring up "traditional American values".

629

turn Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:52pm

re: #614 zombie

ha, I'm on a roll today I even messed that up. This auto thing screws me up sometimes and I end up typing over a "post" I thought I had already made. I'm really looking forward to see what you have been working on, I can tell you I'm almost sure I'll jump on the band wagon having read your posts over the years.

630

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 1:55:58pm

re: #611 sattv4u2

thank you

... and I won't add anything about ... "wondering if she's got all her marbles"
No, I won't spoil the happy occasion.
No, I'll just tiptoe toward the door ...

/... before he can get the shotgun loaded ... :D

631

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:02pm

More signs of the decline and fall of Western civilization:

A South Cobb High School student is in jail on $10,000 bond after beating up a 15-year-old as part of an initiation into a street gang.
Julius Andreono Garner, an 18-year-old freshman, was arrested May 13 on charges of disruption of public school, simple battery and a felony violation of the Georgia gang statute. Arrest warrants state that Garner slammed the 15-year-old on the ground, kicked him and punched him several times.

I think there's a clue in there somewhere.

632

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:13pm

re: #620 zombie

"Stewardship" is already in common usage in the environmental scene - - i.e. we are "stewards" of the earth.

Yeah, but they've stolen enough words, time to take one back and give it a broader meaning, in relation to the economy, defense and the nation in general.

633

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:28pm

re: #538 doppelganglander

Yeah, I'll start looking into that.

634

UFO TOFU Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:35pm

re: #625 Killgore Trout

Maybe some local church?

635

ihateronpaul Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:37pm

re: #600 Creeping Eruption

don't you realize how hypocritical it is to support the political grandstanding that occurred against Clinton but then act "shocked" when it is being done to your side?

636

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:43pm

re: #625 Killgore Trout

See if theres a local church that has an outreach program for her. Neither one of you have to be members. It's what they do

637

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:46pm

Z -

Too bad "Rational" is taken.

How about "Platernalism"

Play on "Paternalism" and "Platonic". I assume that equality under the law is a core tenet.

638

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:52pm

re: #626 zombie

I hear ya. "Sane" is the best descriptor, I just feel it won't "go over" too well among those who don't like some part of it.

Besides, think of those who do join. I can here them now excitedly proclaiming that they are "in Sane."

639

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:53pm

re: #634 UFO TOFU

GMTA

640

MrSilverDragon Tue, May 19, 2009 1:56:58pm

re: #626 zombie

I hear ya. "Sane" is the best descriptor, I just feel it won't "go over" too well among those who don't like some part of it.

Take it from someone who's pretty much insane himself... Zombie's right.

641

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 1:57:12pm

re: #632 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yeah, but they've stolen enough words, time to take one back and give it a broader meaning, in relation to the economy, defense and the nation in general.

Noted.

642

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 1:58:34pm

re: #637 karmic_inquisitor

Z -

Too bad "Rational" is taken.

How about "Platernalism"

Play on "Paternalism" and "Platonic". I assume that equality under the law is a core tenet.

Unsaid in that is that most ideologies end up enabling a paternalistic relationship between the governing and the governed.

643

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 1:58:55pm

Hey all,

I missed you guys very much. It's been hell in the lab lately and I have barely had time to think about anything other than physics, let alone post.

I get to come back to this though.

We are looking at the most amazing polarization that this country has seen in decades. Honestly, the typical American is still somewhere in the center, but they will go where they think their interests are served over their ideology on most issues. That causes me to ask what the GOP is thinking.

The GOP is going insane. The Paulians are one short step away from fascists. And that brings me to my grim thought. The way that fascists get control of governments is in times of economic collapse. It may well be that the new GOP game plan is to be that party that pledges to get America back to it's "Christian values" and makes the trains run on time, if and when the economy goes belly up.

It could well be that we are looking at a one two punch here.

644

debutaunt Tue, May 19, 2009 1:59:03pm

re: #625 Killgore Trout

I think I might try to make some calls to charities or something to see if there's something that can be done. So for I don't even know if she knows it was me. I knocked last night and this morning before I started work but got no answer. She didn't come out when I was working. I was actually starting to think she might be dead but I saw her pick up her mail about an hour ago. She used to have friends stop by but I haven't seen any visitors there for the past year or so. Portland does have a lot of social services so there might be someone who can help.

Good luck, Killgore. It is unfair to be given the role of an unwilling caregiver. Sounds like she could use a professional.

645

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 1:59:05pm

re: #636 sattv4u2

See if theres a local church that has an outreach program for her. Neither one of you have to be members. It's what they do

maybe she does not want any help...it needs to be considered...I'm like that to an extent

646

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 1:59:06pm

re: #636 sattv4u2

See if theres a local church that has an outreach program for her. Neither one of you have to be members. It's what they do

I'm not sure I can find a gay friendly church. I'm sure there are ones in the area but I'm not sure how to ask the right questions without causing offense. If the church has problems with lesbians (there's that terrible word) it could be very awkward for everyone involved.

647

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 1:59:10pm

re: #598 Guanxi88

I wouldn't give you the satisfaction.

That's why masochist could never have a successful relationship with a masochist.

Masochist:
"whip me, beat me."

Sadist:
"No"

648

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 1:59:21pm

re: #626 zombie

I hear ya. "Sane" is the best descriptor, I just feel it won't "go over" too well among those who don't like some part of it.

Problem is, branding is always so tricky. One never knows quite where to begin.

I mean, we don't want loonies, but, as you correctly point out, it might not serve our interests to attempt to stake an exclusive claim on sanity (at least at this point in the game). And, of course, so many names have been tried, used, and abused.....

Confucius was correct - the rectification of names is the first task of government.

649

Desert Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 1:59:49pm

re: #627 eschew_obfuscation

My guess..... There will be no color options; all cars will be green. They will get 50 miles/gallon, weigh 200 lbs, crush like notebook paper in an accident, and sell for $10,000 per copy after a $40,000 government rebate. They will be powered by methane from recaptured bovine emissions giving them a top speed of 20 mph.....going down hill.....with a following breeze.

Because of their low price, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan...... will no longer be able to compete in the U.S. and will begin making high-priced Cadillac knock-offs in China for those who still have any money and want "American" luxury car.

.... and the planet will continue to warm because the FUCKING SUN is becoming more active..... (maybe we haven't spent enough to reduce our carbon footprint yet?) .... Oh Look! A coal-fired power plant!

I can hardly wait to buy a new one.....Honda or Toyota, that is.

Actually, I buy American cargo vans. I hope Ford does not change theirs around.

650

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 2:00:18pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure I can find a gay friendly church. I'm sure there are ones in the area but I'm not sure how to ask the right questions without causing offense. If the church has problems with lesbians (there's that terrible word) it could be very awkward for everyone involved.

why tell them that?...it's nobodies business but hers

651

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 2:00:21pm

re: #637 karmic_inquisitor

Z -

Too bad "Rational" is taken.

How about "Platernalism"

Play on "Paternalism" and "Platonic". I assume that equality under the law is a core tenet.

Equality under the law is indeed a core tenet, I'm just trying to avoid completely made-up neologisms. I've determiend, after great pondering, that I need to re-use an under-used existing word, not make up a new word.

My model is the rebranding of the word "progressive" from a neutral non-political term to one having a distinct political meaning.

652

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 2:00:37pm

re: #625 Killgore Trout

I think I might try to make some calls to charities or something to see if there's something that can be done. So for I don't even know if she knows it was me. I knocked last night and this morning before I started work but got no answer. She didn't come out when I was working. I was actually starting to think she might be dead but I saw her pick up her mail about an hour ago. She used to have friends stop by but I haven't seen any visitors there for the past year or so. Portland does have a lot of social services so there might be someone who can help.

I think this is an excellent idea, would be extremely beneficial to her without being burdensome for you.

653

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 2:00:58pm

re: #620 zombie

"Steward" also has been long used in Christianity to describe a Christian's relationship to his/her material possessions. If you're a good steward, you take good care of your stuff, and are generous with your community and with people in need.

654

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 2:01:02pm

re: #644 debutaunt

I don't even know CPR much less hygiene issues for morbid obesity. She needs a wheelchair ramp. It's all out of my league.

655

ihateronpaul Tue, May 19, 2009 2:01:04pm

re: #622 Zimriel

I think the eagerness to label the democrats as the "racist" party backfires when you flash foward to the 1960's when "conservative southerners" opposed the civil rights act, which was conceived by the well known conservative JFK. (/s folks)

For a reference to this, maybe you would enjoy vomiting to these disgusting song lyrics that date from the 1960s

[Link: www.songmeanings.net...] (NSFW)

656

Zimriel Tue, May 19, 2009 2:02:03pm

re: #452 doppelganglander

I knew the Klan had a presence in Indiana, but I had no idea it was so pervasive.

Yeah, and there's that other book about Notre Dame too...

The weird thing about these racist parties is that they win lots of votes, and might even take over if everyone else is very unlucky; but they attract such freaks into their leadership that they usually end up imploding.

657

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 2:02:08pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure I can find a gay friendly church. I'm sure there are ones in the area but I'm not sure how to ask the right questions without causing offense. If the church has problems with lesbians (there's that terrible word) it could be very awkward for everyone involved.

Try a Unitarian Universalist church.

658

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:02:08pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure I can find a gay friendly church. I'm sure there are ones in the area but I'm not sure how to ask the right questions without causing offense. If the church has problems with lesbians (there's that terrible word) it could be very awkward for everyone involved.

You don't even mention sexual orientation, and guess what, they won't ask! (unless it's some real far right radical sect) I'm talking about a mainstream Catholic, Protestant, hell, even Mormon. One of my sons best friends is a Mormon. Their church does more FREE outreach work than many municipalities I've been in, and NOT just to Mormons and with NO strings attached (i.e. trying to convert you). Thats the same with the mens club at the Catholic Church I belong too

659

unrealizedviewpoint Tue, May 19, 2009 2:02:55pm

re: #650 albusteve

why tell them that?...it's nobodies business but hers

Unless she wears it on her sleeve.

660

avanti Tue, May 19, 2009 2:03:00pm

re: #643 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey all,

I missed you guys very much. It's been hell in the lab lately and I have barely had time to think about anything other than physics, let alone post.

I get to come back to this though.

We are looking at the most amazing polarization that this country has seen in decades. Honestly, the typical American is still somewhere in the center, but they will go where they think their interests are served over their ideology on most issues. That causes me to ask what the GOP is thinking.

The GOP is going insane. The Paulians are one short step away from fascists. And that brings me to my grim thought. The way that fascists get control of governments is in times of economic collapse. It may well be that the new GOP game plan is to be that party that pledges to get America back to it's "Christian values" and makes the trains run on time, if and when the economy goes belly up.

It could well be that we are looking at a one two punch here.

Welcome back, ready for a climate change thread ? :) ( just kidding)

661

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 2:03:08pm

re: #635 ihateronpaul

don't you realize how hypocritical it is to support the political grandstanding that occurred against Clinton but then act "shocked" when it is being done to your side?

What are you talking about? What is hypocritical? If one of the attorney's that this "coalition" is going after violated the oath administered by his Bar, he should be subject to disciplinary action. That is a matter for the state bar to decide, not some half-baked coalition of loons from across the country.

662

albusteve Tue, May 19, 2009 2:03:32pm

re: #659 unrealizedviewpoint

Unless she wears it on her sleeve.

that's another point altogether

663

Zimriel Tue, May 19, 2009 2:03:35pm

re: #643 LudwigVanQuixote

The GOP is going insane. The Paulians are one short step away from fascists. And that brings me to my grim thought. The way that fascists get control of governments is in times of economic collapse. It may well be that the new GOP game plan is to be that party that pledges to get America back to it's "Christian values" and makes the trains run on time, if and when the economy goes belly up.

It could well be that we are looking at a one two punch here.

if it's up to me - no pasaran

664

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 2:04:00pm

re: #643 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry, L, but the green fascists already are in charge. You also could call Obama a "bad capitalist", but either way, government takeovers, bailouts, and "rescues" of large corporations with benefits conferred upon political cronies amount to fascist economics.

665

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 2:04:12pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

Talk to the Catholics, because Catholic Charities doesn't care about your orientation.

The only things they won't do is procure you an abortion or the means to suicide.

666

Jewels (AKA Julian) Tue, May 19, 2009 2:04:36pm

re: #599 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fellow 40k Player here. got about 7000 pts in Nid's :)

667

pre-Boomer Marine brat Tue, May 19, 2009 2:04:39pm

re: #654 Killgore Trout

I don't even know CPR much less hygiene issues for morbid obesity. She needs a wheelchair ramp. It's all out of my league.

You have compassion.

It's good.

668

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:04:46pm

re: #665 Dianna

Talk to the Catholics, because Catholic Charities doesn't care about your orientation.

The only things they won't do is procure you an abortion or the means to suicide.

You haven't tasted the wine in awhile, I see!

////

669

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 2:05:03pm

re: #665 Dianna

True.

670

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 2:05:11pm

re: #650 albusteve

why tell them that?...it's nobodies business but hers

She's a lesbian activist. Her car is covered in gay rights stickers and she often has gay marriage yard signs up. I'm a little concerned that it might be an issue with some churches. I'd guess most of them would still help her but I'd be a little worried about them making her last months uncomfortable with conversions, gay cures or preaching.
I just remembered that my ex-boss is gay and very well connected in the community. He's a real jerk and I haven't talked to him in years but I'm sure he'll know gay friendly churches and charities.
Writing him an email now........

671

quickjustice Tue, May 19, 2009 2:05:57pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

Go Unitarian or United Church of Christ (UCC, Obama's church). They're already committed to gay marriages. That's as gay friendly as you can get.

672

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 2:06:15pm

re: #659 unrealizedviewpoint

Unless she wears it on her sleeve.

Even then, the majority of churches and outreach organizations just won't care.

673

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:06:15pm

re: #670 Killgore Trout

She's a lesbian activist

see my 658

674

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 2:06:17pm

re: #628 Slumbering Behemoth

I always like to point to this when people bring up "traditional American values".

And there is so much more.

Outside of child labor, there is the Jazz Age. Lot's o' nakedness and copulation goin' on there.

And Prohibition failed to usher in the universally moral behavior that it was designed to.

And then there is the Penitentary movement - the reform of prisons to rehabilitate men into good Christians. "Penitence" is the root word from which "Penitentiary" was created.

All sorts of examples at every fold of our history.

At no point were we a homogeneous Christian whole that then suffered from some form of social corruption that simply needs to be rolled back.

Certainly we can become a better society and better people. But it comes down to moral choices, not Cabinet Meetings and law making in Congress.

675

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 2:06:51pm

re: #625 Killgore Trout

I think I might try to make some calls to charities or something to see if there's something that can be done. So for I don't even know if she knows it was me. I knocked last night and this morning before I started work but got no answer. She didn't come out when I was working. I was actually starting to think she might be dead but I saw her pick up her mail about an hour ago. She used to have friends stop by but I haven't seen any visitors there for the past year or so. Portland does have a lot of social services so there might be someone who can help.

Wait, Portland? I might know the Unitarian minister there! Call them, and if Pat is the minister you are in luck. She's a wonderful lady and will go out of her way to help you find services for your neighbor.

676

Kragar Tue, May 19, 2009 2:07:14pm

re: #666 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Fellow 40k Player here. got about 7000 pts in Nid's :)

INCOMING!

About 3000 pts each in Marines, Chaos marines, Orks and Cadians

677

zombie Tue, May 19, 2009 2:07:16pm

re: #654 Killgore Trout

I don't even know CPR much less hygiene issues for morbid obesity. She needs a wheelchair ramp. It's all out of my league.

I have some knowledge of this exact situation, due to having to help a family member set up a home-care situation. And you hit a key point: Home-care companies will never send someone of a different gender to help a disabled person who needs assistance with daily personal hygiene. It's just not kosher. Perhaps it is sometimes done if arranged non-professionally between friends, but any agency or company will always arrange a woman to help a woman, and a man to help a man, if the person-in-need requires any help with bathing, restroom-going, even clothing-changing.

678

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 2:08:33pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

I had a very long and helpful post prepared, only to see everyone else had already said the same thing. I wish you and your neighbor the best.

679

IslandLibertarian Tue, May 19, 2009 2:08:35pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure I can find a gay friendly church. I'm sure there are ones in the area but I'm not sure how to ask the right questions without causing offense. If the church has problems with lesbians (there's that terrible word) it could be very awkward for everyone involved.

You tell them there is someone that needs help.
You don't need to declare the sexual orientation.
Read the parable of "The Good Samaritan".

680

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:08:51pm

re: #660 avanti

Welcome back, ready for a climate change thread ? :) ( just kidding)

Anytime really except right now.

I'll just say this, people who want to say it isn't real are more afraid of potent short term economic issues thent they are of the real long term scientific issues.

All of this talk about the sun going up and down is a side show. No one in the legitimate scientific community thinks that solar activity is the central issue. The reason for it is that the sun has always gone through cycles and while GHG concentrations are at all time highs. GHG out puts are at all time highs, and the amount of plants on the eatrth, that would eat the GHG are at all time lows.

No amount of solar variation will counter that fact. If we get a break from the sun, it only delays the fall of the sword over our heads.

681

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 2:08:59pm

re: #677 zombie

I don't think she can shower or bathe. It's too much for me.

682

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:09:55pm

re: #670 Killgore Trout

She's a lesbian activist. Her car is covered in gay rights stickers and she often has gay marriage yard signs up. I'm a little concerned that it might be an issue with some churches. I'd guess most of them would still help her but I'd be a little worried about them making her last months uncomfortable with conversions, gay cures or preaching.
I just remembered that my ex-boss is gay and very well connected in the community. He's a real jerk and I haven't talked to him in years but I'm sure he'll know gay friendly churches and charities.
Writing him an email now........

I'm not a Christian, but I'll go out on a limb and say that just about ANY group or denomination within Christianity should be able to be of assistance to her, irrespective of her beliefs or statements.

683

J.S. Tue, May 19, 2009 2:10:10pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

the United Church of Canada (I think there's probably some american version of this?) is totally gay friendly (they have gay ministers, etc.) (they don't like Jews/Israelis though -- gays are Ok...) In Canada, you can go to the website and type in a zip/postal code to find a church in one's locale...

684

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:10:31pm

re: #664 quickjustice

Sorry, L, but the green fascists already are in charge. You also could call Obama a "bad capitalist", but either way, government takeovers, bailouts, and "rescues" of large corporations with benefits conferred upon political cronies amount to fascist economics.

As opposed to communist? Look, I know you don't like O, and I am not his biggest fan either, but the whole bailout cycle got strated in the last term, and even though it was mismanaged horribly, I am not convinced letting the economy implode would have been better.

685

UFO TOFU Tue, May 19, 2009 2:10:33pm

Good luck Kilgore, tough situation.

686

eddiebear Tue, May 19, 2009 2:11:04pm

re: #670 Killgore Trout

"gay cures or preaching"?

Last I checked, Christ preached caring for the person first and taking care of jis/her pain.

Besides, how much do you know about various Christian denominations to assume they are all like a Fred Phelps clone?

687

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:11:11pm

re: #683 J.S.

the United Church of Canada (I think there's probably some american version of this?) is totally gay friendly (they have gay ministers, etc.) (they don't like Jews/Israelis though -- gays are Ok...) In Canada, you can go to the website and type in a zip/postal code to find a church in one's locale...

I know a gay Jew,,,,, THAT would make their heads splode !

////

688

J.S. Tue, May 19, 2009 2:12:08pm

re: #654 Killgore Trout

Typically, the morbidly obese are suicidal and (probably) clinically depressed (she may be in need of professional help..)

689

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:12:14pm

re: #663 Zimriel

if it's up to me - no pasaran

Great reference! 1000 updings if I could.

690

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 2:12:38pm

re: #687 sattv4u2

I know a gay Jew,,,,, THAT would make their heads splode !

////

I know a Lesbian, Jewish, Rabbi.

691

karmic_inquisitor Tue, May 19, 2009 2:13:04pm

re: #651 zombie

Equality under the law is indeed a core tenet, I'm just trying to avoid completely made-up neologisms. I've determiend, after great pondering, that I need to re-use an under-used existing word, not make up a new word.

My model is the rebranding of the word "progressive" from a neutral non-political term to one having a distinct political meaning.

Interesting.

Wasn't there a "progressive" movement back around the 1900s? The one that ultimately got the child labor laws put in place and the Penitentiaries built. IIRC, it was a christian woman's movement. Flying blind here, and should just look it up ...

Point being that I thought the modern remake of the word wasn't done from a neutral start point. A friend years ago who started using it said it was intended to cleave off christian women from the right, explicitly telling them that liberal policy is closer to christian values than conservative policy.

Not quibbling - I know you have a depth of knowledge that exceeds mine ...

692

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 2:13:04pm

re: #654 Killgore Trout

I don't even know CPR much less hygiene issues for morbid obesity. She needs a wheelchair ramp. It's all out of my league.

re: #681 Killgore Trout

I don't think she can shower or bathe. It's too much for me.

And she cut her own grass up until just recently?
Must be a very small lawn, and all downhill./

693

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 2:13:07pm

re: #646 Killgore Trout

I'm not sure I can find a gay friendly church. I'm sure there are ones in the area but I'm not sure how to ask the right questions without causing offense. If the church has problems with lesbians (there's that terrible word) it could be very awkward for everyone involved.

I don't know the minister there, but I grew up and was married in the Unitarian Universalist church. There's no discrimination there.
[Link: www.firstunitarianportland.org...]

694

eschew_obfuscation Tue, May 19, 2009 2:13:43pm

re: #690 Creeping Eruption

I know a Lesbian, Jewish, Rabbi.

Well, at least she's not a Catholic rabbi ;~)

695

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 2:14:16pm

re: #687 sattv4u2

I know a gay Jew,,,,, THAT would make their heads splode !

////

Would that be Gay Cucken?

696

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 2:14:20pm

re: #682 Guanxi88

I'm not a Christian, but I'll go out on a limb and say that just about ANY group or denomination within Christianity should be able to be of assistance to her, irrespective of her beliefs or statements.

Agreed. The more likely scenario is that she might be antagonistic towards Christians and refuse their help. A little sensitivity on both sides is in order.

697

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:14:56pm

KILGORE ,,,,,

seriously ,,, we've had our differences, but I applaud you in this. Please take my advice and contact Churches. I know for a fact that my Catholic Church does things like this all the time (help non-parishioners who are in need). I know of other denominations here that do the same, NO QUESTIONS ASKED

Call them. Unburden yourself. You're not equipped to deal with it (no shame, non of us would be either)

698

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:15:04pm

re: #690 Creeping Eruption

I know a Lesbian, Jewish, Rabbi.

As opposed to a Hindu Rabbi?

699

hawk Tue, May 19, 2009 2:15:46pm

@avanti: "The state has a responsibility to protect the child. What the parents are doing is little different then shooting him in the head."

I watched as my father died of cancer and it ate him slowly. Chemo cleaned it up 3 times and each time the so called educated doctors said he was "clean." They were wrong all three times.When they tried to sell him on a 4th round, he sought an expert opinion who stated that his system was way to weak for a 4th and he would have died from it.

If it were my child, I would want to do something. ALMOST anything.

HOWEVER, I hope that no one is silly enough to think that chemo as a guaranteed treatment ... it can be effective but not guaranteed. But at 13, I'd be willing to roll the dice with my child on that (versus the alternative).

@zombie:"Michael Savage is actually VERY pro-evolution, but he doesn't like to talk about it on his show, lest he offend too many of his listeners."

Oh so what you are saying is that he is a sell out! Put his belief where his mouth is. Are these the listeners he really wants or is he just greedy? Sound like he is willing to at least compromise himself. I guess he should be glad he doesn't have a lot of gay followers. He could be arrested in some dank restroom then huh? ;-)
I just want to be sure that we have clearly defined Savage :-)

@422: doppelganglander:

Does the name Dixiecrats ring a bell?
==========================================
(source: nationalblackrepublicans.com )
History shows that the Ku Klux Klan was the terrorist arm of the Democrat Party. This ugly fact about the Democrat Party is detailed in the book, A Short History of Reconstruction, (Harper & Row Publishers, Inc., 1990) by Dr. Eric Foner, the renown liberal historian who is the DeWitt Clinton Professor of History at Columbia University

On page 146 of his book, Professor Foner wrote: “Founded in 1866 as a Tennessee social club, the Ku Klux Klan spread into nearly every Southern state, launching a ‘reign of terror‘ against Republican leaders black and white.” Page 184 of his book contains the definitive statements: “In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic party, the planter class, and all those who desired the restoration of white supremacy. It aimed to destroy the Republican party’s infrastructure, undermine the Reconstruction state, reestablish control of the black labor force, and restore racial subordination in every aspect of Southern life.”
==========================================

700

Creeping Eruption Tue, May 19, 2009 2:16:35pm

re: #698 LudwigVanQuixote

As opposed to a Hindu Rabbi?

These days? Who the hell knows what people will come up with. I do not assume anything, so yes, a Jewish Rabbi.

701

Guanxi88 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:16:48pm

re: #696 doppelganglander

Agreed. The more likely scenario is that she might be antagonistic towards Christians and refuse their help. A little sensitivity on both sides is in order.

Eh, maybe, but, and on this one, I speak from experience, being in need has a way of reminding people of the virtues of reciprocity. The simple fact that someone with whom you might otherwise be inclined to disagree vehemently is willing to provide help ha a way of humbling a person and opening the mind.

702

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:17:00pm

Progressive is a word that has a lot of history in politics.

TR was considered a progressive. In many ways he was. He also had some truly disturbing racial views, that most modern "progressives" would be appaled at - unless those ideas were applied to Jews.

703

doppelganglander Tue, May 19, 2009 2:17:31pm

re: #691 karmic_inquisitor

Interesting.

Wasn't there a "progressive" movement back around the 1900s? The one that ultimately got the child labor laws put in place and the Penitentiaries built. IIRC, it was a christian woman's movement. Flying blind here, and should just look it up ...

You'd probably enjoy Jonah Goldberg's book Liberal Fascism. The link goes to the paperback edition, out June 2.

704

FrogMarch Tue, May 19, 2009 2:17:48pm

so let's look at our political choices:

Democrat:
Here we have the party of Hope and Change, the party of business-killing unions and high taxes, the party of government unions and socialism, the party of big government and the all-encompassing nanny state. Let's call the Democrats "The Socialist Democrats." Truth in advertising.

Republican:
Here we have the party of GOD. You must be a Christian and you must detest science and evolution in order to join. While religion should be a private matter, and all faiths and non-faiths should feel welcome, increasingly people do not identify with the Party of God. Let's call the Republicans "The Party of God."

Ron Paul:
He's got some nice sounding small government ideas at the margins, but reality tells us the man is a kook. Ron Paul should break off from the "Party of God" and become the party of "Ron Paul". oh wait....

705

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 2:18:27pm

re: #643 LudwigVanQuixote

And that brings me to my grim thought. The way that fascists get control of governments is in times of economic collapse.

Yep. This song seems like a good accompaniment to these grim reflections. (turn it up, click on HQ - it's a goodie)

Youtube Video

706

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:19:52pm

re: #704 FrogMarch

so let's look at our political choices:

Democrat:
Here we have the party of Hope and Change, the party of business-killing unions and high taxes, the party of government unions and socialism, the party of big government and the all-encompassing nanny state. Let's call the Democrats "The Socialist Democrats." Truth in advertising.

Republican:
Here we have the party of GOD. You must be a Christian and you must detest science and evolution in order to join. While religion should be a private matter, and all faiths and non-faiths should feel welcome, increasingly people do not identify with the Party of God. Let's call the Republicans "The Party of God."

Ron Paul:
He's got some nice sounding small government ideas at the margins, but reality tells us the man is a kook. Ron Paul should break off from the "Party of God" and become the party of "Ron Paul". oh wait....

Excellent post, I would only add that the GOP of late has been just as fiscally miserable as the Dems, only in serving different masters.

707

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 2:20:26pm

re: #692 Spare O'Lake

She used to hire a crew to come out a couple times a year but I assume she doesn't have the money anymore. Lawn hadn't been mowed since last fall.

708

badger1970 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:20:42pm

So republican candidates aren't science enough to get votes? Pray tell, what do the republicans need to do? Moving toward religious right gets a smack down, moving to creationism gets a smack down, moving left gets a smack down, being compassionate conservatives gets a smack down. Please, some one, any one tell, me what makes the perfect socialist foil?

I rather have a creationist run under sane fiscal policy, strong national defense and don't give a rat's ass about perez hilton than having any democrat.

709

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:20:55pm

re: #705 Jimmah

Yep. This song seems like a good accompaniment to these grim reflections. (turn it up, click on HQ - it's a goodie)

Laibach! Dude, you just got 2000 cool points with me.

710

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:21:17pm

Ok folks. I have watched, with some interest, the fervor over intelligent design vs evolution. I have read comments from LGF and others that oppose intelligent design or support (obviously from other sites) intelligent design and they make sense or sometimes not, as seen in the above.

However, are we saying that intelligent design should not even be discussed or debated along side evolution? As a way to proof out one or the other. Wouldn't solid fact finding assist us all in the truth. Recent DNA is now suggesting we all came from the same area of pan-Europe/Africa region 70,000 years ago. As an example.

For my part I think a healthy non-violent debate in academia over both issues is the very core of the USA, see 1st amendment.

Charles I see your point that the "trolls" just want to cause dissent, be vulgar and obstinate. However I like LGF because the exchange of ideas is freely debated here. So THANK YOU again for hosting this site.

By the way I was drawn here because, at the time it was the first site I found that was honestly reporting the PallyWood debacle across the sandbox. It lent evidence to my experiences.

Cheers to my brothers and sister in arms in the past present and future.

711

Killgore Trout Tue, May 19, 2009 2:21:47pm

re: #693 KansasMom

Thanks, I'll give them a call.

712

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:22:31pm

re: #707 Killgore Trout

She used to hire a crew to come out a couple times a year but I assume she doesn't have the money anymore. Lawn hadn't been mowed since last fall.

THAT I would do for her ,,,,, anything else, seek help! Again (and I promise, last time) I implore you to reach out to a church. If the 1st or 2nd can't help, go to #3. They're only phone calls!

713

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 2:23:18pm

re: #709 LudwigVanQuixote

Laibach! Dude, you just got 2000 cool points with me.

This could so easily become a Laibach thread now...LOL

714

Almost Killed by Space Hookers Tue, May 19, 2009 2:24:20pm

re: #710 the1sgjohns

If there were something to debate, you would have a point. Just because some fanatics call something science, does not mean it is. Would you support a legitimate "debate" over astrology in science class? What about the balancing of the four humors via blood letting in medical school?

Science marches on. The debate about evolution was firmly ended well over 100 years ago.

715

sattv4u2 Tue, May 19, 2009 2:25:18pm

re: #710 the1sgjohns

However, are we saying that intelligent design should not even be discussed or debated along side evolution

No, we're saying (and always have been ) that it should NOT be taught in public school science classes.

Debate it in theology classes, OK ,,,, Church run or Private schools,,, NO PROBLEM (even in science class) But NOT as part of the Public School SCIENCE class curriculum

716

Son of the Black Dog Tue, May 19, 2009 2:25:19pm

re: #655 ihateronpaul

I think the eagerness to label the democrats as the "racist" party backfires when you flash foward to the 1960's when "conservative southerners" opposed the civil rights act, which was conceived by the well known conservative JFK. (/s folks)...

Neither the Civil Rights Act nor the Voting Rights Act would have passed without majority Republican support. A majority of Democrats opposed, even filibustered against, both pieces of legislation.

As recently as 1970(?), Jimmy Carter, when running for governor of Georgia was using racist code words to appeal to prejudiced Democrat voters - going around South Georgia saying "I am one of you" (wink, wink)

717

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:28:59pm

re: #714 LudwigVanQuixote

So you would be against a debate? Hmm, agreed, science has improved over blood letting, same group that listened and changed.

But as in vulcanism they had to re-think old, thought to be "proven" theories about earths eruptions. Mt St. Helens changed that in one day. Not a end all just an example.

718

FrogMarch Tue, May 19, 2009 2:29:13pm

re: #706 LudwigVanQuixote

Excellent post, I would only add that the GOP of late has been just as fiscally miserable as the Dems, only in serving different masters.

thanks.
There are a small handful of conservatives who talk a good game when it comes to getting back to real fiscal conservationism. As we all know, too many politicians on both sides of the D-R spectrum have taken their "incumbent for life" positions of power and lined their pockets with the money from special interests.
To which I say I say - purge them all. Alas, our corrupt in the tank media/hollwood machine keeps the populace stupid - so no can do.

719

abolitionist Tue, May 19, 2009 2:29:13pm

re: #96 Charles

No, it doesn't. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.

The earth is not an isolated system. See that big shiny thing up there in the sky, called the sun? It's constantly bathing the earth in energy. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the earth's ecology.

In the abstract of "On the logical relationship between natural selection and self-organization," published in 2006 in the Journal of Evolutionary Biology, he [Guy Hoelzer] described natural selection as "a mechanism that coordinates the coevolution of species in an ecosystem to effectively capture, process and dissipate solar energy into the earth’s shadow … an emergent process founded on the same thermodynamic imperatives that are thought to underlie all self-organization."

Forests and fields tend to be excellent approximations to an ideal black body (except perhaps for green light adsorption). Basically, their surfaces are "fuzzy." Geometrical details don't matter so much as the fuzziness. They have a higher capacity for absorbing solar energy in the daytime, and re-radiating it later as infra-red into the night sky compared to bare dirt, rocks, sand or other relatively smooth inanimate surfaces. And that's without even considering daytime food production driven by photosynthesis, and burning of that food at night by plants and animals. So, due to the presence of living things on Earth, the sun's energy is dissipating into cold deep space slightly more "efficiently" than it would without life on earth. This more than offsets the local decrease of entropy represented by the obvious ordering of matter in living things.

720

zuckerlilly Tue, May 19, 2009 2:30:10pm

Republicans, Democrats Differ on Creationism

Germany:

First graph:

"Apes and humas share a common ancestor":

yes: 65.1%
no: 32.1%
don't know: 2.8%

Second graph:

"A higher power has created the world":

yes: 48.3%
no: 49.2%
don't know: 2.5%

721

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:32:30pm

re: #715 sattv4u2

Ok, got that. My science teach touched (and perhaps at his peril) on creationist vs science to show how feelings should influence empirical evidence. Made me realize I needed to read more and understand more not just accept it because someone said so.

So I thought cool, I made my own decision, not just the current governments decision.

722

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 2:33:18pm

re: #710 the1sgjohns

Oh, dear.

Look, ID is non-falsifiable. That means that it's not science. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand what some of us are upset about.

723

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:33:38pm

re: #719 abolitionist

This is why I come here. Cool stuff.

724

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:35:14pm

re: #721 the1sgjohns

Ok, got that. My science teach touched (and perhaps at his peril) on creationist vs science to show how feelings should influence empirical evidence. Made me realize I needed to read more and understand more not just accept it because someone said so.

So I thought cool, I made my own decision, not just the current governments decision.

I meant should NOT influence....PLEASE DR Johnson forgive me.

725

quiet man Tue, May 19, 2009 2:38:35pm

For a subject to be considered in a scientific way, especially a subject that contains mostly unknowns and unprovables...there are 3 ways to get there if you cannot (or will not) follow scientific method

Disregard the math,
Disregard the unknowns,
Disregard all arguments and proclaim the subject closed.

The math suggests there are problems with evolution acting alone and at random. The unknowns suggest that more testing is needed to confirm or fill in the incredible holes in the theory on random/survival evolution. As for disregarding all arguments and proclaiming victory..that particular flag of science has been waved in error far too many times in the past for it to be instantly acceptable.

Are there any statisticians in the house?

Before you ding me, know I am not a creationist, nor a paulian..and right now I am not sure if I am a republican, (tho I am sure I am not a liberal or centrist)...I am someone uncomfortable with the glaring holes in both the theories of evolution and creationism. At this point, the math does not support either theory very well.

726

KansasMom Tue, May 19, 2009 2:38:41pm

re: #711 Killgore Trout

Thanks, I'll give them a call.

I hope they are helpful. I wish Pat was there, then I'd know you were in good hands.
Regardless of where you find it, I do hope you find some help for your neighbor and relief for yourself. Good luck.

727

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 2:39:06pm

re: #710 the1sgjohns

Ok folks. I have watched, with some interest, the fervor over intelligent design vs evolution. I have read comments from LGF and others that oppose intelligent design or support (obviously from other sites) intelligent design and they make sense or sometimes not, as seen in the above.

However, are we saying that intelligent design should not even be discussed or debated along side evolution? As a way to proof out one or the other. Wouldn't solid fact finding assist us all in the truth. Recent DNA is now suggesting we all came from the same area of pan-Europe/Africa region 70,000 years ago. As an example.

For my part I think a healthy non-violent debate in academia over both issues is the very core of the USA, see 1st amendment.

Charles I see your point that the "trolls" just want to cause dissent, be vulgar and obstinate. However I like LGF because the exchange of ideas is freely debated here. So THANK YOU again for hosting this site.

By the way I was drawn here because, at the time it was the first site I found that was honestly reporting the PallyWood debacle across the sandbox. It lent evidence to my experiences.

Cheers to my brothers and sister in arms in the past present and future.

Discuss or debate all you want. Just bring your empirical evidence supporting your stance, and your empirical evidence undermining the stance you oppose.

Oops! Only evolution can do that, because there isn't a single SHRED of empirical evidence that supports creationism/ID, but scads of it supporting evolution. And until there is, it isn't science, and doesn't belong in public school science class.

Show Me The Science!
[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

728

Aye Pod Tue, May 19, 2009 2:42:00pm

re: #709 LudwigVanQuixote

Only Laibach could turn a naff 80's euro-disco party song (Opus: Life is Life) into a disturbing warning of the return of fascism:

Youtube Video

729

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:42:50pm

re: #722 Dianna

Agreed, I don't buy into "god's will" just cause. If the sky is blue we should be able to figure it out. Science has empirical processes that can be duplicated, which proves them to be correct and not just "feelings and emotions".

Again folks I believe in the first amendment of free speech and exchange of ideas to learn. So to my way of thinking. Science class in Public Schools should be empirical learning and processes.

730

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 2:43:36pm

re: #717 the1sgjohns

So you would be against a debate? Hmm, agreed, science has improved over blood letting, same group that listened and changed.

But as in vulcanism they had to re-think old, thought to be "proven" theories about earths eruptions. Mt St. Helens changed that in one day. Not a end all just an example.

Some empirical science theories come and go; others come and stay.

Evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection is as solidly empirically grounded as are spherical earth heliocentrism, the germ theory of disease, relativity, quantum mechanics, and plate tectonics. It ain't going anywhere.

731

Dianna Tue, May 19, 2009 2:44:04pm

re: #729 the1sgjohns

Then ID must be excluded. Sorry.

732

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:44:29pm

re: #725 quiet man

ME TOO!

733

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:45:26pm

re: #727 Salamantis

Again, good one.

734

debutaunt Tue, May 19, 2009 2:46:00pm

re: #690 Creeping Eruption

I know a Lesbian, Jewish, Rabbi.

*fingers crossed* ...who went into a bar...

735

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 2:46:59pm

re: #721 the1sgjohns

Ok, got that. My science teach touched (and perhaps at his peril) on creationist vs science to show how feelings should influence empirical evidence. Made me realize I needed to read more and understand more not just accept it because someone said so.

So I thought cool, I made my own decision, not just the current governments decision.

Science is not a layman's popularity contest, and neither is empirical reality changeable due to the intensity of one's feelings. It is what it is, and what the overwhelming empirical evidence shows it to be.

736

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:47:35pm

re: #731 Dianna

All together in a science class, yes.

737

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 2:50:14pm

re: #724 the1sgjohns

I meant should NOT influence....PLEASE DR Johnson forgive me.

Wish I'd caught your correction before I replied. But here's some more empirical evidence for you:

Darwin's Surprise
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

738

quiet man Tue, May 19, 2009 2:51:13pm

re: #735 Salamantis

True it isn't..so when in doubt check your premise and try again..there are no contradictions...at least in this..what happened is what happened, and some day we will find out.

739

christophermdavis Tue, May 19, 2009 2:52:20pm

Are we surprised they love Ron Paul there? No offense chums, but South Carolina is where batshit crazy politicians (and presumably crazy voters) were invented. From John C. Calhoun to Preston Brooks to Strom Thurmond to Jim DeMint, very few states have sent as many consistent loons and dangerous crackpots to our national legislature over our 200 year history. Nice golf courses, though.

740

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 2:52:32pm

re: #737 Salamantis

Thank you brother/sister, I felt like I really f(*& that one up for my science teacher who brought me to the realm of reasoning and scientific thought.

741

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Tue, May 19, 2009 2:58:47pm

re: #674 karmic_inquisitor

At no point were we a homogeneous Christian whole that then suffered from some form of social corruption that simply needs to be rolled back.

Super upding!

The rhetoric of returning to a glorious "golden age that never was" is not only ridiculous on it's surface, but it's also a major tenet of fascist philosophy.

742

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 3:00:50pm

re: #725 quiet man

For a subject to be considered in a scientific way, especially a subject that contains mostly unknowns and unprovables...there are 3 ways to get there if you cannot (or will not) follow scientific method

Disregard the math,
Disregard the unknowns,
Disregard all arguments and proclaim the subject closed.

The math suggests there are problems with evolution acting alone and at random. The unknowns suggest that more testing is needed to confirm or fill in the incredible holes in the theory on random/survival evolution. As for disregarding all arguments and proclaiming victory..that particular flag of science has been waved in error far too many times in the past for it to be instantly acceptable.

Please link to this purported math. And no, Behe or Dembski will not do (they've been repeatedly refuted, discredited and debunked). And please link to these huge holes of which you vaguely speak. Just because evrything is not yet known does not mean that nothing is known. We do indeed know very many things. And one of the things we know beyond rational statistical doubt is that evolution happens, and that it proceeds by random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection (note that the environmental selection component is NONrandom).

Are there any statisticians in the house?

Before you ding me, know I am not a creationist, nor a paulian..and right now I am not sure if I am a republican, (tho I am sure I am not a liberal or centrist)...I am someone uncomfortable with the glaring holes in both the theories of evolution and creationism. At this point, the math does not support either theory very well.

Actually, the math is solidly on evolution's side. Humans and chimpanzees, for example, share 90% of their genomes, including thousands of artifactual retroviral sequences, all inserted in precisely isomorphic locations in the species' respective 3 billion base pair genomes. The chances of this happening in the absence of common ancestry are less than the chances of your buying a single ticket in every lottery and sweepstakes round the world and winning them all, then playing every one-armed bandit on the planet with a single coin each, and hitting the jackpot on them all.

743

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 3:04:15pm

re: #738 quiet man

True it isn't..so when in doubt check your premise and try again..there are no contradictions...at least in this..what happened is what happened, and some day we will find out.

When literally millions of experiments and investigations over a century and a half have yielded supporting empirical evidence for evolution, and NONE of them have contradicted the theory, the probability that the theory is correct asymptotically approaches apodictic certainty, and the odds that it is incorrect become vanishingly small.

744

HighFlyingCrane Tue, May 19, 2009 3:06:41pm

"Paulian" is all very well but it doesn't have the necessary oomph. Better would be "Paulyp."

745

anchors_aweigh Tue, May 19, 2009 3:07:01pm

re: #742 Salamantis

The chances of this happening in the absence of common ancestry are less than the chances of your buying a single ticket in every lottery and sweepstakes round the world and winning them all, then playing every one-armed bandit on the planet with a single coin each, and hitting the jackpot on them all.

You got a link for that?

746

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 3:11:03pm

re: #745 anchors_aweigh

You got a link for that?

/

Already posted, but here it is again:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

747

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 3:13:40pm

re: #710 the1sgjohns

The issue is not whether or not we should discuss the issue, but where and when it should be taught. Teaching it in the public schools in the guise of a science as opposed to an aspect of social studies is an end run on the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment--and sets a potentially dangerous precedent.

748

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 3:17:35pm

re: #747 calcajun

Well said. And proves my point. This site is about debate and thankfully so.

749

calcajun Tue, May 19, 2009 3:18:05pm

re: #674 karmic_inquisitor

At no point were we a homogeneous Christian whole that then suffered from some form of social corruption that simply needs to be rolled back.

I don't totally disagree, but it's odd given that during the time of the Civil War, we were a very devout nation--it was a time of great spirituality and many on both sides of Mason-Dixon were pious believers. An argument could be made that we were--at that time--closer to being a "homogeneous" Christian whole than we ever had been before, or since.

750

the1sgjohns Tue, May 19, 2009 3:31:08pm

re: #749 calcajun

Interestingly my wife and I have noted that many religous groups started after the civil war. So it may have divided us more than we realize.

751

wiffersnapper Tue, May 19, 2009 3:33:31pm

re: #1 pat

My thoughts exactly

752

Leon77 Tue, May 19, 2009 3:33:44pm

RE: 485 wrenchwench:

Maybe "litmus test" is too strong a term. It's definitely a test, though :)

Thanks for the welcome.

753

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 3:39:07pm

re: #725 quiet man

The math suggests there are problems with evolution acting alone and at random.

What "math" is that? Please be specific.

754

Charles Johnson Tue, May 19, 2009 3:40:15pm

re: #725 quiet man

The unknowns suggest that more testing is needed to confirm or fill in the incredible holes in the theory on random/survival evolution.

Which "incredible holes" are those? Again, please be specific.

755

pingjockey Tue, May 19, 2009 3:49:13pm

Goddamn asshats on parade...again.

756

SummerSong Tue, May 19, 2009 4:14:03pm

He got quiet, again.

757

quiet man Tue, May 19, 2009 4:27:24pm

re: #754 Charles

Thank you for the opportunity to speak about them.

The main gaping hole I see is that leap from no life to the very first life.
The idea that it "just happens" whenever a couple of molecules get together doesn't hold water..or allow for us to make it happen.

Next, there is nothing in the fossil record that suggests the millions of failed random experiments that would be created by an entirely random process...when you think of a random natural phenom..think of a tornado...they go into basic patterns based on land form. If evolution follows a basic pattern, and I believe it does, two eyes, two ears one nose, where are the ones who broke from the pattern. See, to say something evolves from the lemur monkey found to all the myriad human forms is to make guesses as to what is what, but the main guess is that a life form broke from the pattern to become something else...and since they are guesses, then there is room to improve the theory.

758

Yashmak Tue, May 19, 2009 4:35:28pm

re: #757 quiet man

Thank you for the opportunity to speak about them.

The main gaping hole I see is that leap from no life to the very first life.
The idea that it "just happens" whenever a couple of molecules get together doesn't hold water..or allow for us to make it happen.

That has nothing to do with the theory of evolution, which does not attempt to state how life first began.

Next, there is nothing in the fossil record that suggests the millions of failed random experiments that would be created by an entirely random process...when you think of a random natural phenom..think of a tornado...they go into basic patterns based on land form. If evolution follows a basic pattern, and I believe it does, two eyes, two ears one nose, where are the ones who broke from the pattern.

You realize, don't you, that these fundamental aspects of physiology would likely have been cemented very early on, in creatures of much less complex nature (even in simpler creatures like squids, we see two eyes, for instance), reducing the chances of finding a skeleton (as many of these early creatures would not have had one). More recent examples would be extreme statistical outliers, and finding one would be akin to winning the lottery while being struck by lightning and stung to death by a bee, at the moment a rogue neutron star smashed into your neighborhood.

759

Spare O'Lake Tue, May 19, 2009 4:37:01pm

re: #757 quiet man

Thank you for the opportunity to speak about them.

The main gaping hole I see is that leap from no life to the very first life.
The idea that it "just happens" whenever a couple of molecules get together doesn't hold water..or allow for us to make it happen.

Next, there is nothing in the fossil record that suggests the millions of failed random experiments that would be created by an entirely random process...when you think of a random natural phenom..think of a tornado...they go into basic patterns based on land form. If evolution follows a basic pattern, and I believe it does, two eyes, two ears one nose, where are the ones who broke from the pattern. See, to say something evolves from the lemur monkey found to all the myriad human forms is to make guesses as to what is what, but the main guess is that a life form broke from the pattern to become something else...and since they are guesses, then there is room to improve the theory.

You mean failed life forms like these?

760

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 4:43:11pm

re: #757 quiet man

Thank you for the opportunity to speak about them.

The main gaping hole I see is that leap from no life to the very first life.
The idea that it "just happens" whenever a couple of molecules get together doesn't hold water..or allow for us to make it happen.

That isn't evolution, it's origins of life theory. Evolution only addresses what happens when populations of already-present organisms possessing high but imperfect copying fidelity encounter a surrounding environment with specific challenges and opportunities. And what happens is evolution via random genetic mutation and nonrandom environmental selection.

Next, there is nothing in the fossil record that suggests the millions of failed random experiments that would be created by an entirely random process...when you think of a random natural phenom..think of a tornado...they go into basic patterns based on land form. If evolution follows a basic pattern, and I believe it does, two eyes, two ears one nose, where are the ones who broke from the pattern. See, to say something evolves from the lemur monkey found to all the myriad human forms is to make guesses as to what is what, but the main guess is that a life form broke from the pattern to become something else...and since they are guesses, then there is room to improve the theory.

The failed mutations only appeared once, in single individual organisms which perished before they could reproduce; the successful ones multiplied into the millions. Of course we would find examples of successful mutations and not failed ones.

But, looked at another way, 99% of terrestrial species have eventually gone extinct, so they eventually failed when they could not adapt to changing environmental circumstances (changing temperatures, moisture, predators, competitors, food sources, diseases, parasites...), so virtually every fossil we have is representative of eventually failed species.

AWnd once again, evolution as a whole is NONrandom, as it involves not only random genetic mutation, but also NONrandom environmental selection. So I would greatly appreciate it if you discarded the false 'random' canard with which you misdescribe evolution.

761

quiet man Tue, May 19, 2009 4:43:24pm

re: #753 Charles
Okay, now the math itself.

Here I come from the Sir Fred Hoyle position.

Hoyle calculated the odds of one simple bacterium arising from a primordial soup. He assumed that the 20 amino acids were present in the soup (contrary to the results of the Miller-Urey experiment, which yielded only seven of the simplest amino acids). A simple bacterium is comprised of 2,000 different functioning proteins. In turn, each protein consists of a chain of about 300 amino acids. There are 20 distinct amino acids, so the odds of one proteinated amino acid occurring in the correct sequence is one in 20. The odds of 300 occurring in the correct sequence is one in 30020. Hoyle realized that there can be some variation in the exact sequence, so the odds would be reduced to one in 1020. But because there must be 2,000 different functioning proteins, the odds of the spontaneous generation of a cell is one in 10(20)(2,000) = 1040,000. Even ignoring the problems beyond the math (such as the counter-productive effects that individual essential chemical components have upon each other, and the inability to create all 20 amino acids under simulated conditions), abiogenesis is impossible.
[Link: www.coppit.org...]
Read the whole thing for the arguments against Hoyle, and we are not speaking of evolution from no mark on a bugs back to a mark. Change within the same species is common, we know that..Dogs are the perfect example.

Note that those who say the earth is 6000 years old or whatever also do not like this analysis...because it is strictly based on probability, not assumptions, or the setting of misunderstood variables to "1"

We have only had about 65 million years for pretty much every species we know of to have formed..those who formed before that time have not changed.

762

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 4:48:02pm

re: #758 Yashmak

You realize, don't you, that these fundamental aspects of physiology would likely have been cemented very early on, in creatures of much less complex nature (even in simpler creatures like squids, we see two eyes, for instance), reducing the chances of finding a skeleton (as many of these early creatures would not have had one). More recent examples would be extreme statistical outliers, and finding one would be akin to winning the lottery while being struck by lightning and stung to death by a bee, at the moment a rogue neutron star smashed into your neighborhood.

He obviously doesn't know about spandrels. Evolution doesn't start from scratch; it blindly tinkers with what is already there. Which is why birds don't have legs, arms AND wings; they evolved from four-limbed reptilian ancestors, with their forelimbs evolving into wings, rather than having an extra pair of limbs, either legs, wings or arms, springing into existence.

763

quiet man Tue, May 19, 2009 4:50:11pm

re: #759 Spare O'Lake

Hey..where did you get a pic of my ex wife?

laugh

I see from the dings that my explanation has caused some emotional response from people who have chosen to wave the "conversations over, shut up and sit down" flag...so I will.

I do not want to piss any of you off...If there is zero room for comments such as mine, I will be glad to do shut up about it, tho that, of course, changes nothing.

764

quiet man Tue, May 19, 2009 4:53:12pm

re: #762 Salamantis

where are the ones who did evolve with arms and legs and wings?
Where are the millions of ones that broke out of the box?

If countless typing monkeys could make a shakespeare play, there should be a mountain of nonsense under their tree.

765

quiet man Tue, May 19, 2009 4:56:25pm

Back tomorrow, since I have to work..if anyone wants to discuss my thoughts, fine, I will be more than glad to..and if you can refute them, then I will learn something new.

If I need to be quiet on this subject..I am sure I can manage that
**smile**

766

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 4:59:57pm

re: #761 quiet man

Okay, now the math itself.

Here I come from the Sir Fred Hoyle position.

Hoyle calculated the odds of one simple bacterium arising from a primordial soup. He assumed that the 20 amino acids were present in the soup (contrary to the results of the Miller-Urey experiment, which yielded only seven of the simplest amino acids). A simple bacterium is comprised of 2,000 different functioning proteins. In turn, each protein consists of a chain of about 300 amino acids. There are 20 distinct amino acids, so the odds of one proteinated amino acid occurring in the correct sequence is one in 20. The odds of 300 occurring in the correct sequence is one in 30020. Hoyle realized that there can be some variation in the exact sequence, so the odds would be reduced to one in 1020. But because there must be 2,000 different functioning proteins, the odds of the spontaneous generation of a cell is one in 10(20)(2,000) = 1040,000. Even ignoring the problems beyond the math (such as the counter-productive effects that individual essential chemical components have upon each other, and the inability to create all 20 amino acids under simulated conditions), abiogenesis is impossible.
[Link: www.coppit.org...]
Read the whole thing for the arguments against Hoyle, and we are not speaking of evolution from no mark on a bugs back to a mark. Change within the same species is common, we know that..Dogs are the perfect example.

Note that those who say the earth is 6000 years old or whatever also do not like this analysis...because it is strictly based on probability, not assumptions, or the setting of misunderstood variables to "1"

We have only had about 65 million years for pretty much every species we know of to have formed..those who formed before that time have not changed.

First, those prior species also share amino acid sequences with present ones. Second, useful precursor sequences were evolutionarily co-opted as components of succeeding sequences, so the apparent 'irreduceable complexity' isn't real. Third, those 'simple' bacteria themselves evolved over hundreds of millions, even billions, of years, from precursor species, including species that did not possess the cell wall - cytoplasm - nucleus form of bacteria. Fourth, when the stored Miller-Urey compounds were recently rechecked, many more amino acids were found in them. Fifth, successful mutations become the new baseline, and subsequent mutations aggregate, a much more rapid process than the one represented.

The final refutation of this claim was furnished by Richard Dawkins:

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

(scroll down to: 1.2.3 Statistical impossibility of proteins?)

767

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 5:03:27pm

re: #764 quiet man

where are the ones who did evolve with arms and legs and wings?
Where are the millions of ones that broke out of the box?

That's the point; they didn't. The spandrel fitness landscape didn't allow it, as I have already explained.

If countless typing monkeys could make a shakespeare play, there should be a mountain of nonsense under their tree.

Not when every time a good letter is typed into the right spot, it's locked in by nonrandom environmental selection. This speeds up and streamlines things immensely, as the Dawkins link in post #766 abundantly demonstrates.

768

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 5:04:21pm

re: #765 quiet man

Back tomorrow, since I have to work..if anyone wants to discuss my thoughts, fine, I will be more than glad to..and if you can refute them, then I will learn something new.

If I need to be quiet on this subject..I am sure I can manage that
**smile**

They're already refuted. And we have seen them all before.

769

ShanghaiEd Tue, May 19, 2009 5:24:10pm

re: #748 the1sgjohns

By the way, I really like your profile slogan: "Be kinder than necessary for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

Yes. Simple human kindness is something we could use a lot more of, in all our endeavors. Thanks for making that point.

770

AFVetWife Tue, May 19, 2009 5:35:41pm

re: #754 Charles
OK - when I joined, I had decided to never get into one of these debates. So here's my opinion, once and for all. I do not understand why it's an "either-or" question of "creationism" vs. "evolution." What about the idea that the "Creator" actually created "evolution?" That way, everyone's satisfied.
I firmly believe in an Almighty God; I also believe in the ideas of our Founding Fathers, that based so much of who we are as a nation on Christian principles. That's also why I believe we must continue the fight against Islamo-fascism. It's a defense of our principles, and of those that originally made "the West" what it is/has been in the development of the world.
It always amazes me that those who denounce "the Great Satan" and work for our destruction, nonetheless continue to use OUR inventions and technology in their attempt to defeat us (and Israel, for that matter).
I wish to offend no one; but I do stand by me beliefs. Thanks to all for your attention.

771

Edgesitter Tue, May 19, 2009 5:40:02pm

"This has been a snapshot of a party going completely off the rails and into the weeds."

AMEN !

772

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 6:31:29pm

re: #770 AFVetWife

OK - when I joined, I had decided to never get into one of these debates. So here's my opinion, once and for all. I do not understand why it's an "either-or" question of "creationism" vs. "evolution." What about the idea that the "Creator" actually created "evolution?" That way, everyone's satisfied.
I firmly believe in an Almighty God; I also believe in the ideas of our Founding Fathers, that based so much of who we are as a nation on Christian principles. That's also why I believe we must continue the fight against Islamo-fascism. It's a defense of our principles, and of those that originally made "the West" what it is/has been in the development of the world.
It always amazes me that those who denounce "the Great Satan" and work for our destruction, nonetheless continue to use OUR inventions and technology in their attempt to defeat us (and Israel, for that matter).
I wish to offend no one; but I do stand by me beliefs. Thanks to all for your attention.

Well, to be precise, our nation was founded upon Enlightenment principles, and they owe as much to Greco-Roman philosophy as they do to Judeo-Christian religion.

But there is nothing contradictory or unchristian about believing that evolution is God's mechanism and means; in fact, that is the position of the Roman Catholic Church.

773

Hawk Tue, May 19, 2009 6:55:18pm

@738:quiet man: "at least in this..what happened is what happened, and some day we will find out."

Assuming of course that we don't destroy ourselves with the technology we have found along the way. Unfortunately, the technology we are gaining isn't helping the species gain more mentality wise. On that, we are just out of the mud hut and tents mentality as a whole. We're too busy pointing out the differences and trying to lay blame on each group.

@760 Salamantis:
That isn't evolution, it's origins of life theory. Evolution only addresses what happens when populations of already-present organisms possessing high but imperfect copying fidelity encounter a surrounding environment with specific challenges and opportunities.

BUT ... in order to discuss things of that nature, origin of life MUST be discussed as well. Otherwise you are glossing things with the simple phrase of "already-present organisms."

Well, those organisms had to come into existence before mutation can even begin.

I almost feel like this whole line of threads will end with ONE final post:
=================================================
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

774

hopperandadropper Tue, May 19, 2009 7:27:23pm

re: #7 DaddyG

My biggest beef with Reagan was that he made the deal with the Devil and buddied up to Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. It may have helped him get elected, and he accomplished many useful things in office, but the taint remains and now it's killing the party because nobody knows how to ride the tiger.

775

Salamantis Tue, May 19, 2009 7:38:37pm

re: #773 Hawk

@738:quiet man: "at least in this..what happened is what happened, and some day we will find out."

Assuming of course that we don't destroy ourselves with the technology we have found along the way. Unfortunately, the technology we are gaining isn't helping the species gain more mentality wise. On that, we are just out of the mud hut and tents mentality as a whole. We're too busy pointing out the differences and trying to lay blame on each group.

@760 Salamantis:
That isn't evolution, it's origins of life theory. Evolution only addresses what happens when populations of already-present organisms possessing high but imperfect copying fidelity encounter a surrounding environment with specific challenges and opportunities.

BUT ... in order to discuss things of that nature, origin of life MUST be discussed as well. Otherwise you are glossing things with the simple phrase of "already-present organisms."

Well, those organisms had to come into existence before mutation can even begin.

I almost feel like this whole line of threads will end with ONE final post:
=================================================
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

You might find these two LGF posts to be of some interest.

Then again, maybe not.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

776

ihateronpaul Tue, May 19, 2009 8:20:03pm

re: #716 Son of the Black Dog

as if republicans aren't guilty of that. cue jesse helms's "white hands" ad.
or the fact that jesse helms opposed MLK day.

777

Yashmak Wed, May 20, 2009 12:49:50pm

re: #773 Hawk

BUT ... in order to discuss things of that nature, origin of life MUST be discussed as well. Otherwise you are glossing things with the simple phrase of "already-present organisms."

If you're concerned with how live began, then yes, you must discuss it. However the notion that you have to discuss it even if all you're concerned with is how life has changed over history, then no, you need not discuss the origin of life at all. Evolution is completely seperate from issues of how life first began, and doesn't address it.

Well, those organisms had to come into existence before mutation can even begin.

Right, but that's not an issue evolution attempts to deal with.

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