Bad Craziness in Italy

World • Views: 1,891

An Italian politician has called for apartheid on public transport in Milan.

A proposal to introduce racial segregation on trains, trams and buses in Milan provoked an outcry from Italian opposition politicians today.

The scheme was put forward by a representative of the anti-immigrant Northern League, the prime minister Silvio Berlusconi’s main ally in government. Matteo Salvini, the league’s secretary in Milan, told a rally to launch his party’s European election campaign that he wanted “seats or carriages reserved for the Milanese” on local public transport.

Dario Franceschini, leader of Italy’s biggest opposition group, the Democratic party, said: “One’s thoughts go back to the affair of Rosa Parks, the black woman who refused to give up her place on the bus and inspired Martin Luther King’s struggle.”

Salvini tried to downplay the row, insisting: “It was just a provocation to say the residents are now in a minority and, as such, need safeguarding.” But the Italian president, Giorgio Napolitano, spoke of a “worrying” increase in intolerance, while the opposition Italy of Principles party called on the government to disown the idea publicly.

However, Berlusconi, whose government is already under attack for its immigration policies after the Italian navy returned to Libya more than 200 boat people without letting them apply for asylum, said: “Salvini himself has said it was a quip, a provocation.”

The interior minister, Roberto Maroni, a Northern League member, hailed it as a “turning point” in his battle to stem the flow of immigrants through Italy’s Mediterranean islands. But the UN and human rights groups accused the government of violating international treaties to which Italy is a signatory.

Jump to bottom

90 comments
1 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:04:25am

Fascism rising.

2 Ward Cleaver  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:05:15am

Wow, it's the 1930s all over again. Not good.

3 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:06:01am

Never will happen.

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:06:21am

Why the need to return to ideas that failed so miserably the first time around?

5 Wyatt Earp  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:07:10am

People of the time applauded Mussolini for keeping the trains running on time. I hope this is not a repeat performance.

6 soxfan4life  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:07:15am

re: #4 EmmmieG

Why the need to return to ideas that failed so miserably the first time around?


Why not ask 0bama?

7 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:07:23am

re: #1 Sharmuta

Fascism rising.

Worse. Even in the days of Il Duce, they never advocated this.

8 wrenchwench  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:07:32am

I can guess who might applaud this. I won't go look, though.

9 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:07:39am

Actually, it may happen in future.

Just that the infidels will be the Rosa Parks.

10 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:07:56am

How about separate seats and train cars for morons?

11 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:08:41am

re: #7 Honorary Yooper

Worse. Even in the days of Il Duce, they never advocated this.

Good point.

12 Wasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:08:58am

Speaking of craziness...what's up with the Senate?

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

I thought The One had all the answers?

13 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:09:06am

the EU will correct matters, if Italy doesn't have the sense to..

14 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:09:06am

re: #10 doppelganglander

How about separate seats and train cars for morons?

Well yes but if being stupid becomes a crime what will congressman do for employment?

15 jvic  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:09:12am

There are strong horses and weak horses.

And then there are stupid horses.
************
Given demographic trends, Salvini's proposal might be just fine with the global-Sharia crowd.

16 Gella  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:09:23am

thats just crazy

17 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:09:36am

I want no one to get on me but this is no different than affermative action. It's not this idiot's point but the process is the same. Some are "more equal" than others. Setting aside chairs on a bus or train for people is no different than setting aside jobs for certain races. I use that argument with some moonbat friends. Ask them if they thought segregation on trains and buses was OK. When they say it was wrong (as they should ) I ask why do they support it with jobs since its the same thing. Usually they vapor lock at this point trying to jump through logical hoops to back up their claim...

18 Ward Cleaver  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:09:42am

re: #7 Honorary Yooper

Worse. Even in the days of Il Duce, they never advocated this.

But they didn't have the same racial makeup then, did they?

19 Russkilitlover  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:10:01am

re: #4 EmmmieG

Why the need to return to ideas that failed so miserably the first time around?

Because Europe can't ignore its immigration issues any longer. They have been sweeping their problems with employment, assimiliation, and cultural issues for too long. It's a reckoning now that they are dealing with in the only way they have experience in. It won't work and while I don't believe that Europe will have fascist governments anytime soon, I do believe they are in for continued conflict with their segregated immigrant populations.

20 Leonidas Hoplite  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:10:04am

re: #15 jvic

There are strong horses and weak horses.

And then there are stupid horses.
************
Given demographic trends, Salvini's proposal might be just fine with the global-Sharia crowd.

They certainly have time on thier side.

21 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:10:12am

re: #7 Honorary Yooper

Worse. Even in the days of Il Duce, they never advocated this.

I suppose- it's more of a nazi proposal.

22 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:10:54am

re: #9 Ben Hur

Eurofascists are much more likely to take over Europe than ISlamists. Eurofascists are already elected officials in many countries in Europe. Only a handful of Muslims and maybe one or two Islamists.

23 Ward Cleaver  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:11:24am

re: #12 Wasta

Speaking of craziness...what's up with the Senate?

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

I thought The One had all the answers?

Ninety to six? His own party blocking his wishes to close Gitmo? Maybe they're hearing from constituents.

24 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:11:33am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Eurofascists are much more likely to take over Europe than ISlamists. Eurofascists are already elected officials in many countries in Europe. Only a handful of Muslims and maybe one or two Islamists.

2050.

25 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:11:35am

This also shows that Europe is not far from its fascist past. When the Europeans get their backs to wall, they lash out with the "tried and true" methods. Fascism... Kind of explains why our founding fathers left and created this country.

26 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:12:17am

re: #19 Russkilitlover

Because Europe can't ignore its immigration issues any longer. They have been sweeping their problems with employment, assimiliation, and cultural issues for too long. It's a reckoning now that they are dealing with in the only way they have experience in. It won't work and while I don't believe that Europe will have fascist governments anytime soon, I do believe they are in for continued conflict with their segregated immigrant populations.

I understand the problem, but insulting and demeaning the immigrant population in such a pointless-but-symbolic way seems like a really, really bad idea.

27 vxbush  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:12:21am

Craziness indeed. Let's hope it just stays at the point of a proposal and never goes forward.

28 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:13:43am

re: #23 Ward Cleaver

Congress wants the President to come up with a place for the detainees as per his Executive Orders. They don't want to take the rap for detainees continuing to be held when the President opened this can of worms.

It's the spineless leading the gutless.

29 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:13:52am

Muslim fertility rates in europe are dropping.

[Link: www.prb.org...]

30 Ward Cleaver  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:14:31am

re: #24 Ben Hur

2050.

Correct. If the islamists' birth rate continues like it has, and the Europeans continue to contracept and abort their descendants, the islamists will take over just based on sheer numbers. One man, one vote, one time.

31 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:14:54am

re: #18 Ward Cleaver

But they didn't have the same racial makeup then, did they?

They actually had a pretty decent racial makeup even then. Italian Jews could even be a part of the Fascist Party in the early days, before the alliance with Hitler. They were more interested in "Italianization" than simply race.

32 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:15:09am
33 Wasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:15:47am

re: #23 Ward Cleaver

Ninety to six? His own party blocking his wishes to close Gitmo? Maybe they're hearing from constituents.

They've definitely heard from me. So I guess we can make a difference! Hold their feet to the fire and reality or blisters will eventually set in....

34 pegcity  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:15:59am

oh Europe, your politics are either socialist or Fascist.

35 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:16:26am

re: #21 Sharmuta

I suppose- it's more of a nazi proposal.

Very much so. It's more Naziism than simple Italian Fascism making a comeback in Europe. That is very scary, IMHO. There's a distinctive tone of racial hate to it.

36 alegrias  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:17:36am

One similarity to Florida's predicament:

Some Mediterranean countries have daily boatloads of poor starving immigrants escaping really crappy countries washing up on their shores, capsizing or being dumped at sea by human traffickers.

Millions of escapees from former Communist countries also sneak in to Italy and other relatively wealthy European countries.

Ukrainians and Romanians flooded into Spain seeking jobs, welfare, benefits, and fight with the Central & South Americans also looking for jobs, welfare, benefits and a future.

Crappy countries cause a lot of mysery for their people, and other countries.

37 Ward Cleaver  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:17:59am

re: #29 Sharmuta

Muslim fertility rates in europe are dropping.

[Link: www.prb.org...]

Hmmmm... very interesting. As they become "Europeanized", they have less children, too. Will the last one living please turn out the lights?

38 alegrias  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:20:24am

re: #29 Sharmuta

Muslim fertility rates in europe are dropping.

[Link: www.prb.org...]

* * * **
If you can claim four wives and their dependents in Britain at taxpayer expense, that's a good thing for British taxpayers.

39 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:25:26am

Matteo Salvini, Roberto Maroni, et al are all part of the Northern League. That would be Lega Nord. "Mario Borghezio, member of European Parliament for the Italian Lega Nord" was mentioned in a previous article at LGF: Fascists Hijacking Anti-Jihadism in Cologne

Lega Nord is in bed with the BNP.

As well as pro-Koln.

Including Vlaams Belang.

They are all of the same ilk. In this case we get to see how Europe would respond under the leadership of these fascists. This is the Europe that Geert Wilders envisions and would only result in "bad craziness."

40 KansasMom  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:27:32am

I'm impressed that the opposition used the example of Rosa Parks in their argument. They obviously are much more familiar with American history than I am with Italian history.

41 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:27:53am

re: #39 Gus 802

No surprise there. Thanks for posting that.

42 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:30:31am

re: #41 Killgore Trout

No surprise there. Thanks for posting that.

You're welcome. It sort of clicked when I saw "Northern League" and I remember seeing Mario Borghezio's name around here in the past as well as Lega Nord's involvement with other fascist European factions.

43 erraticsphinx  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:30:59am

re: #39 Gus 802

Ugh.
You can tell a lot in European politics just by looking at who
the party's friends are.

44 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:34:13am

re: #43 erraticsphinx

Ugh.
You can tell a lot in European politics just by looking at who
the party's friends are.

Indeed. Here's an image search for Mario Borghezio of the Northern League (Lega Nord). You might recognize some of the symbolism there including a previous and now infamous pro-Koln sponsored event.

45 mikalm  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:34:41am

re: #31 Honorary Yooper

They actually had a pretty decent racial makeup even then. Italian Jews could even be a part of the Fascist Party in the early days, before the alliance with Hitler. They were more interested in "Italianization" than simply race.

I believe that something like 5% of the Blackshirts in the March on Rome were Jews. Italian Jews were heavily represented in the lower-middle/shopkeeper class, which was sh!t-scared of Communism and responded to the Fascist movement. Even when Mussolini and Franco got in bed with Hitler, Italian Fascists and Spanish Falangists soft-pedaled the racist and anti-Semitic rhetoric; the Latin peoples were too obviously products of multiethnic backgrounds to fall for the racial-purity nonsense.

46 Jim D  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:37:12am

re: #17 MikeAlv77

. Usually they vapor lock at this point trying to jump through logical hoops to back up their claim...

Maybe they're just stunned by your stupidity.

47 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:38:29am

Europe is the canary in the coal mine of Western culture. Since 1945 Europe, the citadel of Christianity, has gradually but inexorably turned its back on its own future. Seduced by the appeal of cradle-to-grave social welfare programs administered by bigger and less-responsive governments, and freed from the responsibility of defending themselves, the Europeans have devolved into a pleasant narcissism

They don't reproduce. Birth-rates are well below replacement levels. They don't give to charity. The government is expected to take care of the poor. They don't attend church or practice their religion. They are dependent on unlimited immigration from Muslim countries to do their work.

Europe is dying. Worse, the Europeans know that their societies are dying, but cannot rouse themselves to do anything about it. They just hope the disaster happens after they're dead - when nothing matters.

48 Land Shark  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:39:23am

This is bad craziness. If you want to do something about immigration control your borders. To discriminate against those already there, many of whom are probably legal immigrants, is just plain wrong.

49 hokiepride  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:59:29am

The way I see with Europe, they have no center-right party or ideology. Europe has on one end, the far-left who want unrestricted third world immigration, radical multiculturalism etc... and on the other end have the far-right, who want Europe for whites only, want all Muslims deported, dislike Jews etc...Europe swings from one end to the other every 25-40 years or so and thinks that the average of two extremes automatically equals the mean, sensible moderate path.

Thank god, the US has kicked both the far-left and far-right to the curb.

50 Gearhead  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:59:49am
...a representative of the anti-immigrant Northern League, the prime minister Silvio Berlusconi’s main ally in government...

Maybe I'm lacking in knowledge, but this seems like a slightly different flavor of what's going on over here with the GOP.

You know, it kind of sucks to be conservative and religious with all of the crazies coming out of the woodwork these days.

Can't I love God and respect science at the same time? Can't I demand secure borders without viewing immigrants as subhuman?

51 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:00:33am

Illegal immigration is a huge issue in Europe, as it is here. People try to migrate from poor countries to rich countries to improve their lives.

The more generous the social welfare programs to immigrants, the greater the incentives to migrate. Europe has created this problem. Discrimination against legal immigrants is irrational, is unrelated to the underlying incentives, and will backfire.

52 Wild Knight  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:09:05am

Well, I can tell you since I live down here. Things are escalating rapidly. You may not have been following news from down here but for well over a decade, fleets of boats cross the Mediterranean every day in summer and frequently during other periods. It is no big deal for Italy to take in 30,000 illegal immigrants in a single summer. Things have become unsustainable now. Facilities are full and services have run out. If Italy gets another summer of immigration like the preceding one, it will have no option other than to let them in as and how they please. Now, the Italian government has had a major tiff with every single country in the cental Mediterranean over the issue. The problem, which I've been telling everyone about, is that there has never been moderation on the issue. NGOs created and maintained to "deal" with this phenomenon have refused to accept the fact that there is a problem. Of course not. Their very survival and employment depends on a continuous flow of immigration. They call everyone who points out that there is a problem a racist. The media chips in. Moderates become aggrieved that their proposals for moderate solutions are treated like a throwback to Nazism or Apartheid. Grudges have grown and people are really, really nervous, upset, jittery and increasingly intolerant - especially when they see native culture being dismantled or pushed into the background to accommodate that of the illegals - most of which is Muslim, may I add because Christian immigrants accept and participate in the Christian popular culture of countries like Italy. I don't care what anyone says but when I see the massive mosques sprouting up around the Basilicas of Rome, it starts getting really, really, really hard to remain moderate and rational. Then, parties like the Lega Nord, BNP Vlaams whatsit and the rest rise and hijack legitimate grievances for their own nefarious end. Oh yes, we're in for a hot summer down here and I don't just mean the heat. Whatever happened to moderation? THAT was the original virtue of the our fathers, the Ancient Greeks.

53 ihateronpaul  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:15:43am

Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986

any guesses on which US President vetoed that bill?

If you guessed "Reagan" you are correct!

Remind me why I am supposed to like him again?

54 shiplord kirel  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:15:52am

Even if this is a "provocation" rather than a serious proposal, it is still alarming that a responsible official would suppose that it could serve any positive purpose. We know from history that today's provocation, thinking the unthinkable, can all too easily become tomorrow's policy. We will know more as the reaction to this works its way out.

55 Land Shark  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:34:13am

re: #49 hokiepride

"Thank god, the US has kicked both the far-left and far-right to the curb."

You're wrong about the far left. It's now in control of our nation. Hopefully in the next couple of elections the far left will be kicked back to the curb.

56 hokiepride  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:39:22am

re: #55 Land Shark

Unfortunately, you are right. In 2008, the far left trio of Pelosi-Obama-Reid took control of this nation. But I hope this is a blip and not a part of a long term trend. As Europe proves the far left begets the far right and it is very difficult to break the feedback loop. I hope the voters in this country vote a center-right admin back in 2013.

57 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:05:16pm

How did it come to this? What if it has become effectively impossible for a Milanese Milanese to take public transport? That is, what if an ethnically European, non-Muslim Milanese would be taking an unjustifiable risk in riding on one of Milan's trains or buses?

I know, the answer is that there must be law and order on public transport, and one law for all. But to impose a measure of law on board that fleet may be beyond the will and capacity of what likes to style itself "authority" in Milan.

If the trains run on time but no one dares ride, the trains may as well not be running. This is where fascism gets its traction.

58 FabioC.  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:40pm

Some clarification here is in order.

The proposal was clearly a provocation, in an Italian way of doing hyperbole that is easy to miss for those not accustomed with the country. And it happened a few weeks ago already.

What the article does not say is what's the situation in Milan. I am quite familiar with that, instead, and it ain't pretty. In front of the Central Station, improvised baggage porters loiter around drinking and squabbling over customers. Some areas have become chinese, while maghrebis strut around in groups emanating arrogance. Pikeys begging for money on the tube and elsewhere complete the picture.
I't more like the New York of The Warriors or Death Wish than a sophisticete shopping and financial capital.

In the same days, in a southern town the convivence between locals an immigrants in the temporary detantion centre proved so difficult that the council decided to add a bus line going straight to that complex. There is no bus reserved to Italians tho.

Is Northern League a fascist party? I can say NO.
They are populist, as in the party closest to the "gut feeling" of the blue-collar people. A thougher stance on illegal immigration is only part of their program; more local government is another.

59 acwgusa  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:44pm

For Christ's sake, this is 2009. This apartheid shit is still going on? (Yes, I realize it still happens), but in Italy? I thought Europe was supposed to be urban, cultured, and sophisticated (In their opinion). How very gauche of them.

60 Wild Knight  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:30:18pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

How did it come to this? What if it has become effectively impossible for a Milanese Milanese to take public transport? That is, what if an ethnically European, non-Muslim Milanese would be taking an unjustifiable risk in riding on one of Milan's trains or buses?

I know, the answer is that there must be law and order on public transport, and one law for all. But to impose a measure of law on board that fleet may be beyond the will and capacity of what likes to style itself "authority" in Milan.

If the trains run on time but no one dares ride, the trains may as well not be running. This is where fascism gets its traction.

Was talking to a friend today. He's no right winger. He's a proper Italian communist of the old school, one of those who agitated to flood the place with illegal immigrants no matter their cause/case. He told me that in the 60s, he used to camp down openly and sleep at the Rome Termini while waiting for a suitable train. He told me that he wouldn't dare to do it today for any sum of money on earth. "Too many untrustworthy people hanging around" he said and he left it at that. But I know what he meant...

61 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:34:34pm

Berlusconi grullo.

But Italy, from whose bosom came John XXIII, is the land of the human heart and she will get through this.

62 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:35:52pm

re: #50 Gearhead

Yes you can.

And you paraphrase several Catholic positions there.

63 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:40:36pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

The solution is to enforce the laws already on the books, which I am sure deal with appropriate behavior in public places.

Same solution with Islam. Parts of it as currently practiced by its fanatics are already illegal. Other parts are fine.

But you see you cannot have two laws in one country.

64 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:41:10pm

re: #63 Ojoe

A million updings.

65 Øyvind Strømmen  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:48:57pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

That is, what if an ethnically European, non-Muslim Milanese would be taking an unjustifiable risk in riding on one of Milan's trains or buses?

I'm white and non-Muslim (but definitely not Milanese), and had no problems travelling on buses in Milan. Can't say I noticed that many obvious immigrants either, and even if I did I think I would feel just as safe as I did.

But then: Half of what I read about Europe in the American blogosphere is unrecognisable. Half of the rest is rubbish. I lived right in the middle of what Vlaams Belang called an "a multicultural nightmare" and "well underway of becoming an immigrant enclave", etc. in Belgium. This town was one of the nicest places I have ever lived, not much noticeable crime (but a very noticable police force); nice, friendly people, fabolous Moroccan fish store.

But the VB are peddling their version abroad, and it's - unsurprisingly - filthy propaganda. And there are others offering similar propaganda from other European countries.

66 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:50:55pm

re: #65 oslogin

I hope you keep writing on this issue and exposing their lies.

67 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:57:40pm

What are the demographics of the Islamic invasion in Italy, anyway? Similar to those in UK and France. or greater/less?

68 FabioC.  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:59:20pm

re: #63 Ojoe

The solution is to enforce the laws already on the books, which I am sure deal with appropriate behavior in public places.


The problem is that it's nearly impossible. All the idiotarians would scream about racism and nazism and the usual litany of mortal sins.

The hard left woul riot together with illegal immigrants - it has happened already.

Only a strong and determined political leadership can enforce the laws already on the books.

69 erraticsphinx  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:02:47pm

re: #58 FabioC.

Provocation is one thing, but discriminating on the base of ethnicity is wrong.
All of the things you mentioned about crime don't make it anymore "understandable".

Some people scream out racism (*cough* The left* cough*) at every opportunity like idiots.

But in this case, yeah, this is a wholesale racist policy brimming with incitement.

70 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:04:22pm

re: #63 Ojoe

Tell that to the countries that are letting the camel's nose of Sharia slide under the tents of their legal systems....

71 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:05:44pm

re: #59 acwgusa

How can they tell who is ' Milanese' and who is not anyway? Are they going to have to carry identity cards with family histories?

72 hokiepride  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:39:42pm

re: #60 Wild Knight

Not that your friend is completely wrong, uncontrolled immigration defnitely can cause problems, but to paint a broad stroke is dangerous. As far as "untrustworthy people" go, New Yorkers said the same thing about Italian immigrants in the early 20th century. Italians would be wise not to repeat the same mistake

73 The_Vig  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:21:16pm

What is it with the alps and racism?

74 Jack_ITA  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:06:16pm

I can't believe this news arrived here so much distorted that it has nothing more in common with the original story. It is a proof, although not a welcomed one, of how strong is the anti-government campaign that most of the Italian medias are leading against the center-right coalition.
I'm a longtime reader of LGF, and, as you might have guess, I am from Italy.

Salvini, a local candidate of the Northern League, told to a crowd at a political electoral rally in Milan that, if the current laxist policy against illegal immigrations where to be continued, they would need "seating places reserved to the citizens of Milan, like those for the war veterans". (from Italian: "Se si va avanti di questo passo ci troveremo coi posti riservati ai milanesi come con gli invalidi di guerra").
Please note that the word milanes is in current Italian language referring to the "citizens of Milan", and not to a non-existent Milanese ethnic group. His naive joke-proposal was much like the "residents only" reserved parking slots and mass transit facilitations that are already existent in almost every big city of Italy.

I would also like to remind to all overseas reader (well, overseas from an EU point of view :D) that in Italy, whenever an election date is near (Eu Parliament Elections in June), there's usually a very heated political battle aimed at the image of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, with four of the most sold newspapers (Repubblica and La Stampa, mostly) strongly opposing him and his party, and Berlusconi's televisions subtly praising the government.
A political strategy widely used by the left-wing parties here in Italy has always been to attack and to smear the public figure of Premier Berlusconi, either for his gaffes or for his "association" with the Northern League, which is seen as a bunch of "fearful rednecks" by the liberals. Truth to be told, Northern League is a federalist party which has positions that are somewhat more liberal than the most of the GOP :)

75 n2stox  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:08:49pm

I've mentioned it before in previous threads: this sort of thing began years ago. I saw it when I was in Vienna and Prague in 2005.

Nationalist groups were getting traction then, and it has only built.

Europeans are naturally a inclusionary people from what I can tell. 1/2 of my family still lives there and I've seen first hand how they've gone from the nice little liberal European to the pissed off European.

Everyone has a tipping point. They're reaching theirs.

76 abolitionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:53:10pm

"...reserved for the Milanese" ? Sheesh. This is not quite the same spirit as JFK's Ich bin ein Berliner, huh?

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:54:33pm

re: #31 Honorary Yooper

They actually had a pretty decent racial makeup even then. Italian Jews could even be a part of the Fascist Party in the early days, before the alliance with Hitler. They were more interested in "Italianization" than simply race.

"You're a piece of work! A Jewish fascist!"

"And you? A wealthy communist?"

(Fictional encounter between Margarite Sarfati and Diego Rivera, in Cradle Will Rock)

78 erraticsphinx  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:16:40pm

re: #74 Jack_ITA

You're making excuses like you're at the principal's office.
I know Italian and from reading it in Corriere della Sera it's pretty clear what
he was meaning to say. And plus, the creepy past statements of Lega Nord leaders don't exactly do the "It's just a joke!" camp much good.

This should be condemned, not brushed under the carpet.
He knew exactly what buttons he was pushing in this statement.

79 FabioC.  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:48:12am

The scope of a provocation is to push buttons.

80 uptight  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:44:29am

It doesn't strike me as racist - just disingenuous.

Citizens of Milan can be any race, can't they?

Showing favouritism to them is just being mean to tourists, but may be justified if - for example - their taxes subsidise the local railway.

81 Jack_ITA  Thu, May 21, 2009 4:09:10am

re: #78 erraticsphinx

You're making assumptions like you're an extremely presumptuous person.

If you know Italian, then you can quite easily translate the Italian quote that i reported above, and you will find that it means what i said in my previous post. That rally was filmed by a local television, so it was really quite easy to check and verify on that specific fact.
Please note that it was not a law proposal, and it was not even a request for the mayor (or anyone) to implement anything. It was part of a similitude (If fact A happens, then we'll be needing fact B) at a political rally.
By the way, it is easy to relate that episode to one of the usual themes of the Northern League electoral campaigns, that can roughly be translated like this: "We risk to become like the native Americans, support us or we'll be the ones living in enclosed reserves", they mean to say that without what they consider effective laws regulating immigration, the cultural identity of the country would be at risk, expecially if immigrants cannot be made to accept everyday democratic ideals and civil virtues.

I read il Corriere della Sera too, and it is one of the newspapers who has always been openly and transparently against the current Prime Minister, although not in an overly aggressive and partisan way like others.
By the way, this "news" was from more than two weeks ago.

re: #80 uptight

It would be extremely disingenuous and naive, if it were a real proposal.
First of all, most citizens would probably prefer simple fare reductions for the residents, much like it happens in my own city. By the way, you are correct, the local taxation is the main source of income (tickets aside) for the maintenance of the subway.
Also, given the image of the Northern League as a party for "simpletons, rednecks and racists" that their oppositors usually try to paint, even the wrong phrase at the wrong time is likely to give much fuel to political discussions. Please note, however, that most of it is simple propaganda, just an example: The mayor of Verona, Flavio Tosi, which is from the Northern League and had been accused, during his campaign for the local election, to be a racist and a xenophobe, has just been recently praised by the president of the regional council of Tuscany, from the opposition party, as an exemplary pursuer of considerate and compassionate immigration policies.

82 Øyvind Strømmen  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:44:48am

re: #81 Jack_ITA

The mayor of Verona, Flavio Tosi, which is from the Northern League and had been accused, during his campaign for the local election, to be a racist and a xenophobe

... which may or may not have something to do with this?

That said, I consider Lega Nord a populist right and nativist party, and not as a genuinely fascist one. Movimento Sociale Fiamma Tricolore, on the other hand, I would not hesitate to describe as fascist. Does the name Andrea Miglioranzi ring a bell?

83 Jack_ITA  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:53:11am

re: #82 oslogin

Movimento Sociale Fiamma Tricolore is, sadly, just one of the many neo-fascist or pseudo-fascist parties here in Italy, it's made up of some of those who did not accept Fini's claim that "Fascism had been evil experience" (Fini was at the time the leader of one of the old right-wing parties, National Alliance)
Forza Nuova is the other main neo-fascist party. Another one is the CasaPound movement.
The new "La Destra" party of Teodoro Bontempo is not a neo-fascist party, but a radical right-wing one, with some old nostalgics inside.

84 Øyvind Strømmen  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:41am

re: #83 Jack_ITA

Movimento Sociale Fiamma Tricolore is, sadly, just one of the many neo-fascist or pseudo-fascist parties here in Italy, it's made up of some of those who did not accept Fini's claim that "Fascism had been evil experience".

I won't go into Fini's past here - he has definitely changed since the early 1990s. However, I have some other comments and questions.

First, I will submit that my knowledge of Italian is more than sketchy. I can't speak a word, and what I can read of the language I can read as a result of knowing a tiny bit of French, and also with the assistance of those horrible online translators. Yet, there are however some things that are easy to discover, for instance that the Northern League cooperates with a number of other parties around Europe, parties with... well... doubtful qualities.

More intriguing, however, that Northern League-politicians can be found cooperating not only with Silvio Berlusconi, but also notable fascists. And this is why I ask about Andrea Miglioranzi. Now, if I am not mistaken Miglioranzi - a Fiamma Tricolore-politician - has been part of a fascist rock band, "Gesta bellica", singing songs about Rudolf Hess and Erich Priebke.

If I am not mistaken he is also connected to this fascist skinhead group.

Yet, here he is demonstrating together with... Flavio Tosi, of the Northern League, the man whom you say has been "accused, during his campaign for the local election, [of being] a racist and a xenophobe". My question: could pictures like this not explain just why people would accuse Tosi of being a racist and a xenophobe. After all, if your political campaign is heavily anti-Sinti (anti-Gypsy) and you demonstrate together with notable fascists, why shouldn't that result in such accusations?

That series of photographs I linked to includes a number of other interesting pictures, too, by the way. Number 15 in the series shows Tosi together with Piero Puschiavo, the founder of the decidedly fascist Fronte Veneto Skinheads and a politician of Fiamma Tricolore. Puschiavo has, I believe, said that gays have an incurable pathology? I found this quote:

Il mio unico rimpianto è aver fatto troppo poco per elevare i valori ideali della nostra tradizione, nella quale si inserisce la nostra lotta ai gay, che sono dei falliti, la loro patologia è incurabile”.



Hardly the sort of fellow I would hang out with if I did not want to be associated with fascists. Or what do you think?

Also, I believe the city council of Verona chose the above-mentioned Miglioranzi to sit on the board of the Veronese Institute of Resistance History, with at least the initial suppport of Tosi. As far as I can see, this caused quite a stir in Italian media and in parts of the Italian blogosphere? To me, it is a genuine mystery, why on earth would anyone in their right mind want to put a fascist at the board of a institute working with the history of the Italian resistance? And is it a surprise that reactions have been, well, let's say, mixed?

85 Turtler  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:38pm

re: #53 ihateronpaul

Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986

any guesses on which US President vetoed that bill?

If you guessed "Reagan" you are correct!

Remind me why I am supposed to like him again?

Um, because

A. The "Anti-Apartheid" legislation was not only about the South African government's truly reprehensible actions, but was also parroted by Black nationalists and supporers of the "Reds" due to South Africa's conflicts with the local Communist puppets (yes, it was not a pretty picture with very few good guys, and I am almost ashamed to say that I still think the racist, apartheid-loving, BOSS-employing, less-representative-democracy-than-we-were-in-1860 South African regime and its similar allies probably held the MORAL highground in that godforsaken bloodbath, which- given my distaste for the Apartheid governments- says a lot).

B. Reagan had his plate full trying to starve Khruschev, Noriega, and Castro out simultaneously, and the fact that he succeeded beyond almost anybody's expectation and brought liberty to Eastern Europe and some of the Caucasus says much.

It isn't a high mark of Reagan's career, but realpolitik is not something you can switch on and off at whim.

As for Italy, I don't like what's going on. I had the pleasure of going there in the middle of the issues with the Gypsies, and let me tell you that the fanclubs of the Italian Moose are getting dangerously popular.

Mark my words: this is going to get uglier before it gets better (IF!).

86 Jack_ITA  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:43:27pm

re: #84 oslogin

Honestly, I never even heard of this Andrea Miglioranzi, but i must say that my knowledge of extremist parties (both right or left) is somewhat sketchy, i just tend to avoid them like the plague. Unfortunately, your description seem realistic, since there are individual much like this one in those far-something movements.
As far I can say about Northern League, it has always had strong historical ties with autonomist parties, even the dubious ones like Batasuna from the Euskadi and Vlaams Belang from Flanders.
In fact, Northern League was born as a radical autonomist party for the North of Italy, and only after some years (in the mid '90s) they concretely abandoned their secessionist programs: most of the secessionist left at that time, but there are some awful people, like the EU MP Borghezio, which are still part of the Northern League: he is a self-proclaimed racist and old friend of Le Pen. However, he has not been an influential member of the Northern League for a long time, as the Northern League real leaders are Maroni, Calderoli and Castelli.
As for the associations of Flavio Tosi with this Miglioranzi, i did not know it, and i do not presume neither to justify it, nor to defend it. Let me tell you that the quote of this Miglioranzi is highly offensive for gay people and nothing a person in their right frame of mind should say. It certainly might be the cause of part of the stir about his person, but usually local politicians are to be judged about their effectiveness in administrating their town or region, and not by the reactions of the blogosphere, and i do not honestly care about who is supporting them as long as i can see how they act.
And, to be honest, it would be like judging the GOP in its entirety from the association of a local politician with anti-gay religious zealots, or the Dems from the positions of some of the weirder moonbats.

In Italy there is also an extremely strong anti-Gypsy feeling, which is somewhat justified by the past policies of extreme tolerance of illegality situations, like abusive "nomadic camps" actually financed by some authorities which also tolerated a lot of micro-criminal behavior on the basis of "cultural difference".

87 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, May 22, 2009 1:30:52am
And, to be honest, it would be like judging the GOP in its entirety from the association of a local politician with anti-gay religious zealots, or the Dems from the positions of some of the weirder moonbats.

It sometimes seems like the GOP deserves to be judged not for their association with anti-gay religious zealots, but for being anti-gay religious zealots, hardcore creationists and the like. But American politics is not my field. European neo-fascism, on the other hand, is. I have studied these people and political parties for years, written a book on the topic and I have published a number of articles.

Based on this research, I would say that your comparison with GOP is flawed. First of all, Italy is not a two-party system (although Berlusconi's new party might bring your country in that direction). As a consequence, parties have a narrower audience and a narrower focus. Secondly, please consider that I did not pick out the local politician who I found pictures of together with notable fascists; you did. I had never even heard of Flavio Tosi before, since I have not been particularily interested in Lega Nord. I had not heard of Miglioranzi either, but when his name came up in connection with Fiamma Tricolore and Fronte Veneto Skinheads, bells started ringing loud! My point was that it is possible, even likely, that accusations against Tosi are made for a very good reason.

As I said, Tosi ran a decidedly anti-Gypsy campaign (so anti-Gypsy that it lands you in court, an achievement - I believe - even in Italy), and when he hangs out with people that are decidedly fascists, and could even be called Nazis, it is hardly a surprise that some people question whether he is a xenophobe.

Roberto Calderoli, whom you mention, gained some international attention when he showed off his Muhammed-cartoon-t-shirt. More interesting, though, is his suggestion to arrange a pig day against mosques:

Roberto Calderoli of the anti-immigrant Northern League party said he was ready to bring his own pig to "defile" the site where the mosque is due to be built in the northern city of Bologna.

"I am making myself and my pig available for a walk at the site where they want to build the mosque," Calderoli, who is a deputy speaker of Italy's Senate, said in a statement.

([Link: uk.reuters.com...]

Apparently, Calderoli suggested a "pig day", where pigs would be taken to various suggested mosque sites. I sure can understand why some people would interpret that as opposition not only to Islam as a religion, but also to freedom of religion itself. And I can certainly sympathise with those who feel that the suggestion reeks of good old-fashioned racism.

88 Jack_ITA  Fri, May 22, 2009 2:54:10am

re: #87 oslogin

Well, landing in court is, for a politician, quite an easy to accomplish achievement here in Italy. Getting a complete absolution is another matter, and as far as i can see Tosi did get one. Most of the accusations of racist behaviour against him, at least here in Italy, came from one of his old catchphrase which was "Go' El Leun che Magna il Terun", which in Venetian dialect means "i have the Lion which eats the southerners".
What i meant to say by my example above is that, in concrete, at the proof of facts, not empty words,

As for Calderoli, I wholeheartedly approved both of his initatives. Defending the "danish cartoons" and freedom of expression, publicy, in television, took more courage and balls than what any other Italian politician had, and it was a symbolic act very important for a lot of people.
And the "pig day" (that never took place) proposal came after a strong request from the UCOI (the Italian CAIR) to BAN pig-based products not only from all public refectories, but requesting that no "local faires" revolving around pig-based food should take place near mosques. Please note that pig-based food is a strong tradition here in Italy.

89 Jack_ITA  Fri, May 22, 2009 2:56:43am

re: #88 Jack_ITA


What i meant to say by my example above is that, in concrete, at the proof of facts, not empty words,

The browser ate my reply, blast ;)

I meant to say here, that at the proof of facts, the policies concretely adopted by Tosi in Verona are becoming an example for other administrators, both from his own coalition and from the current opposition party (PD).

90 Øyvind Strømmen  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:26:50am

re: #88 Jack_ITA

Well, landing in court is, for a politician, quite an easy to accomplish achievement here in Italy. Getting a complete absolution is another matter, and as far as i can see Tosi did get one.

As far as I've read the court-case is still going on, after a number of acquittals and convictions. But I might be wrong. Anyway, the interesting part is just how Tosi landed in court.

And the "pig day" (that never took place) came after a strong request from the UCOI (the Italian CAIR) to BAN pig-based products not only from all public refectories, but requesting that no "local faires" revolving around pig-based food should take place near mosques. Please note that pig-based food is a strong tradition here in Italy.

Irrelevant. I have no problem understanding Italian reactions against the requests you say UCOII delivered (please do provide some links, if English if that exists, in Italian if not). Such reactions would be perfectly understandable. While not Italian, I can certainly appreciate some prosciutto (preferably together with a nice glass of Italian wine).

But Calderoli's "pig day"-statements were not about how it should be allowed to sell prosciutto nearby mosques (as if anyone would be able to get such a request through in Italy, it's like suggesting to ban pasta). They were an attack on religious freedom itself. Saying that you want to take pigs around to various suggested mosque sites to prevent mosques from being built is an attack on religious freedom. In other words, if UCOI made a moronic statement, Calderoli's reply was a very good example of an irrelevant and equally moronic reply. Two wrongs does not make one right. And it does not make one wrong grow balls either.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 112 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 272 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1