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My Email to Geert Wilders

Opinion • Views: 1,385

On December 16, 2008, I sent the following email to Geert Wilders:

Dear Mr. Wilders,

As I’m sure you’ve heard, I am a US blogger who’s very opposed to allowing the Belgian Vlaams Belang party to be involved in any ‘anti-jihad’ movements. I feel that the inclusion of the VB can only damage the reputation and effectiveness of the effort to stop the global jihad, among the vast majority of people — and especially in the US, where any hint of fascism is political poison.

Let me say I admire your efforts against the spread of extremist Islam, although I may not agree with all your positions — and I’ve had great respect for your policy of keeping your distance from the neo-fascists.

But in addition to the political considerations, I’ve done enough research into the group to convince me that their current pose of moderation is a false front. I believe they truly are fascist in origin and in current intentions. I know that some people disagree with this, but I believe strongly that letting this group participate in anti-jihad efforts would be a very large mistake, from both a moral and a practical perspective.

Given that some recent news reports have said you are considering forming an alliance with them, I hope you’ll reconsider.

Would you like to make a statement on this matter for me to publish at LGF? I’ll publish whatever you write without editing.

Sincerely,

Charles Johnson
littlegreenfootballs.com

I received no answer — and that speaks volumes.

Since I sent this email, Wilders’ public opinions have become even more extreme, to the point where he now advocates stripping Muslims of their right to freedom of religion — and I will no longer support him even to the extent I described in this email.

Today the Netherlands Public Prosecutor’s Office announced that they’re going to proceed with the prosecution of Geert Wilders for inciting hatred and discrimination — and while I continue to believe “hate crime” laws are fundamentally wrong, the charge that Wilders is pandering to bigots and haters is true.

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1 rightside  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:41:43am

Hoi Geert, hoe gaat het?

2 zombie  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:42:14am

Which is more important and influential: The blogosphere, or European politics?

I vote for the blogosphere.

3 zombie  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:43:20am

Geert should be honored to get an email from someone of Charles' stature.

4 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:43:39am

re: #2 zombie

Which is more important and influential: The blogosphere, or European politics?

I vote for the blogosphere.

Considering that the eurofascists are using people in the blogosphere to mainstream themselves, perhaps you're correct.

5 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:43:48am

The polarization of European politics continues. More and more people are getting sucked into that whirlpool.

6 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:44:16am

re: #2 zombie

Which is more important and influential: The blogosphere, or European politics?

I vote for the blogosphere.

My bet is the EU will consume itself in the next 10-15 years at its current rate. It will be a footnote by the next century.

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:44:58am

I wish all political conversation could rise to this level of civility and politeness. We'd get more done.

8 kynna  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:45:06am

This is really sad. How do people get so desperate that they go down this road?

9 soxfan4life  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:45:20am

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My bet is the EU will consume itself in the next 10-15 years at its current rate. It will be a footnote by the next century.

Without masive foreign aid from the rest of the world, I think 10 years is the max.

10 pegcity  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:45:29am

Commie left or Fascistic right, hmm not great choices for Europe.

11 TedStriker  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:46:23am

re: #8 kynna

This is really sad. How do people get so desperate that they go down this road?

A craven need for power and control over others...

12 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:46:31am
I received no answer — and that speaks volumes.

I think you got his answer, but he did not send it via email or use words. It was one he sent to all of us. His answer is given through his actions and his choice of associations. Wilders has chosen the dark side, the side of the Vlaams Belang, the side of the BNP.

13 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:46:50am
Since I sent this email, Wilders’ public opinions have become even more extreme, to the point where he now advocates stripping Muslims of their right to freedom of religion — and I will no longer support him even to the extent I described in this email.

I don't know if Geert has become more extreme or if we just got better at listening to what he was actually saying. "Islam is not a religion but a totalitarian ideology" is code for limiting the freedom of religion even though I didn't always recognize it.

14 soxfan4life  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:47:17am

re: #10 pegcity

Commie left or Fascistic right, hmm not great choices for Europe.


After being the cause of 2 World Wars maybe we should just let them fall, and deal with whoever emerges from the ashes.Or offer some shithole in the mountains to Palestine.

15 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:47:37am

re: #10 pegcity

Commie left or Fascistic right, hmm not great choices for Europe.

Last time they had this choice, it all blew up into a large war. Let us hope it does not again.

16 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:48:03am

I will not link it here- but Wilders is reported (via the brussels journal) to now support Flemish independence.

What this has to do with The Netherlands or stopping radical islam- I have no idea.

17 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:48:04am

Pam won't let him anywhere near LGF.

18 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:48:48am

re: #13 Killgore Trout

"Islam is not a religion but a totalitarian ideology"

That's code?

19 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:49:24am

he's gonna wish he took that long vacation to Barbados...obssession will only bring ruin and he is

20 vxbush  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:50:02am

re: #7 EmmmieG

I wish all political conversation could rise to this level of civility and politeness. We'd get more done.

I concur. Charles, that was a very well-worded email, clearly stating your concerns and giving Wilders ample opportunity to respond. The fact that he has written nothing back is a shame.

I can only hope that perhaps Wilders will see your posting here and realize that he has missed an opportunity to clarify his stance. I can hope that your email only ended up in the junk mail filter. Alas, it sounds like that is not the problem and that Wilders is going down the wrong road.

21 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:50:06am

re: #16 Sharmuta

What this has to do with The Netherlands or stopping radical islam- I have no idea.


It's his endorsement of VB. The rest of the political parties will have nothing to do with him so VB is pretty much his only political ally.

22 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:50:16am

re: #16 Sharmuta

I will not link it here- but Wilders is reported (via the brussels journal) to now support Flemish independence.

What this has to do with The Netherlands or stopping radical islam- I have no idea.

It may be in return for the support of the Vlaams Belang in his own racist quest. Why is little Belgium the epicenter for so much in Europe?

23 RockmanVermont  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:50:29am

re: #7 EmmmieG
I would have to disagree, I wish politics would go back to the age of Lincoln, where if you insult a man and his honor,he would fight you for it, and after the fight, both of you would go get a drink at the local bar.No pansy ass crybabies and we would get a hell of a lot more done as a nation.

24 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:50:53am

re: #18 Ben Hur

That's code?

if you want it to be....Islam can be anything it wants until it breaks or subverts the law

25 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:51:15am

re: #18 Ben Hur

Yup, I think it's pretty clearly a way to get around the whole pesky freedom of religion thing.

26 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:51:22am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

It's his endorsement of VB. The rest of the political parties will have nothing to do with him so VB is pretty much his only political ally.

Looking further, I see he supports uniting Flanders with The Netherlands (also from the brussels journal- home of pieces of trash).

27 vxbush  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:51:52am

re: #23 RockmanVermont

I would have to disagree, I wish politics would go back to the age of Lincoln, where if you insult a man and his honor,he would fight you for it, and after the fight, both of you would go get a drink at the local bar.No pansy ass crybabies and we would get a hell of a lot more done as a nation.

It might be hard to have a drink as the liquid may pour out of the bullet holes from the duel.

/

28 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:51:54am

Banning Islam is not going to stop radical Islam. On the contrary it will make all of Islam into radical Islam.

29 zombie  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:52:34am

re: #22 Honorary Yooper

Why is little Belgium the epicenter for so much in Europe?

Becuase it's the place where the Romanceosphere and the Germanosphere meet. The border between the two major influences on Europe.

At least, that was always my theory.

30 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:52:46am

By no means am I supporting the far-right, but I've called it before - this will only get worse. In one positive regard, it is a departure from the pleasant narcissism that defines Europe.

Only a fool would expect this country to take moral or ethical instruction from Europe, the "Slaughterhouse of the 20th Century." However, they have big problems, and it is fasinating how this will play out. The problem: Here's the typical, European family. It's called "4-2-1": 4 Grandparents, 2 Parents, 1 Child. Some future.

And how do you like the empty churches, births out of wedlock, Muslim predominance in the major cities, high unemployment, and the E.U.'s inability to stop the Balkan War without US intervention? What did you think of the preamble to the constitution of the European Union which refused to recognize the continent's Christian roots and heritage?

31 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:52:51am

re: #26 Sharmuta

Looking further, I see he supports uniting Flanders with The Netherlands (also from the brussels journal- home of pieces of trash).

That would make a lot of sense. Aren't the Flemmish related to the Dutch? It would also give Wilders an instant power base in The Netherlands.

32 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:53:30am

re: #18 Ben Hur

That's code?

It denies the status of religion to Islam, which is a step towards removing the protections that we afford to religion. It's pretty obvious what someone is trying to do when they say such things, so yes, it's code for "Let's take away their freedom of religion."

33 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:53:40am

re: #22 Honorary Yooper

Why is little Belgium the epicenter for so much in Europe?

Maybe it's the Lambic... mmm... Lambic.

34 hazzyday  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:53:45am
35 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:54:43am

re: #34 hazzyday

Heh. Pretty cool.

36 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:54:43am

re: #34 hazzyday

OT: but the latest Google image

Nice. I like it. Now if only Google would do something for Memorial Day, we'd be set.

37 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:54:53am

Europe has a friggin huge problem in their face essentially of their own making and I see no good end to it....I fear there will be massive violence before it's settled, and this could go on for decades yet...what a pity

38 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:55:23am

re: #29 zombie

I think it's because paul belien of the brussels journal is married to a VBer, and they have been working for years to spread and mainstream their fascism.

39 zombie  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:55:40am

re: #34 hazzyday

OT: but the latest Google image

How come I never see those special Google logos on my computer? (Unless someone links directly to them, like that.) I always get the normal logo. Than again, I only use the "advanced search" page, so that may be the explanation.

40 hazzyday  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:56:01am

re: #28 Alouette

Banning Islam is not going to stop radical Islam. On the contrary it will make all of Islam into radical Islam.

Without a central religious authority that isn't a single person or a head of state strongman; Islam is extremely susceptible to extremism. Voices of moderation carry no weight and are used to disguise the wolf.

41 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:56:34am

re: #34 hazzyday

OT: but the latest Google image

Before my eyes focused, I thought it looked like a big turd.

42 zombie  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:57:10am

re: #38 Sharmuta

I was thinking more of the historical roots of the "battlefield Belgium" concept -- why it always seems to be the place where wars break out and conflicts are started, dating back centuries.

43 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:57:41am

re: #23 RockmanVermont

I would have to disagree, I wish politics would go back to the age of Lincoln, where if you insult a man and his honor,he would fight you for it, and after the fight, both of you would go get a drink at the local bar.No pansy ass crybabies and we would get a hell of a lot more done as a nation.

Using the honor/dueling method, we lost Alexander Hamilton (and his son) and kept Aaron Burr. Not a good trade, in my opinion.

44 TedStriker  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:57:41am

re: #41 Alouette

Before my eyes focused, I thought it looked like a big turd.

LOL!

45 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:58:17am

re: #20 vxbush

I concur. Charles, that was a very well-worded email, clearly stating your concerns and giving Wilders ample opportunity to respond. The fact that he has written nothing back is a shame.

I can only hope that perhaps Wilders will see your posting here and realize that he has missed an opportunity to clarify his stance. I can hope that your email only ended up in the junk mail filter. Alas, it sounds like that is not the problem and that Wilders is going down the wrong road.

I think Wilders has more than clarified his stance by his very public actions.

46 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:58:19am

re: #38 Sharmuta

I think it's because paul belien of the brussels journal is married to a VBer, and they have been working for years to spread and mainstream their fascism.

That expalins Belien, but Zombie and I were discussing why little Belgium seems to be the epicenter for so much in Europe. They were at the heart of the von Schlieffen Plan. They were home to the Ardennes, where the Germans came through in 1940. They are home to the EU. They are also home to both the Walloons and the Flemmings, as well as the Vlaams Belang.

47 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:58:20am

The type of hate crimes the US has are bad enough: where motive is used to add to sentences. In Europe they are far worse, where just your motive and your speech can get you in trouble with the backwards laws.
That said, Geert is a scenery chewing populist pol who went into this with open eyes and concious mind, I don't have pity for him.
The same people who bashed Chris Hitchens for defacing the Syrian baathist nazi symbol are probably going to take umbrage with what I've said here.

48 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:59:11am

Additionally- things swirl around Belgium because that's where EU HQ is.

49 Russkilitlover  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:59:27am

re: #7 EmmmieG

I wish all political conversation could rise to this level of civility and politeness. We'd get more done.

Fuck that!

/ ;-}

50 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:59:34am

I said it on the Italy thread and say it here. Europe seems to always go to a left or right extreme when its gets its back to the wall. The EU only stays together when the times are good. They are spineless and feel nothing is worth fighting for. I understand they had a bloody century with 2 world wars but come one guys. Stay to the middle...

51 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:00:00am

re: #39 zombie

How come I never see those special Google logos on my computer? (Unless someone links directly to them, like that.) I always get the normal logo. Than again, I only use the "advanced search" page, so that may be the explanation.

You need to go directly to [Link: www.google.com...] to get the image.

52 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:00:27am

re: #41 Alouette

Before my eyes focused, I thought it looked like a big turd.

Mr. Hanky!

53 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:00:37am

re: #16 Sharmuta

I will not link it here- but Wilders is reported (via the brussels journal) to now support Flemish independence.

What this has to do with The Netherlands or stopping radical islam- I have no idea.

"Flemish independence" is the Vlaams Belang cause -- that's confirmation that Wilders is allying with them.

54 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:00:59am

re: #25 Killgore Trout

Yup, I think it's pretty clearly a way to get around the whole pesky freedom of religion thing.

It's clearly a true statement.

55 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:02:12am

re: #32 CyanSnowHawk

It denies the status of religion to Islam, which is a step towards removing the protections that we afford to religion. It's pretty obvious what someone is trying to do when they say such things, so yes, it's code for "Let's take away their freedom of religion."

For me, it adds to Islam's status as a religion - which it is, but not soley.

56 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:02:35am

re: #53 Charles

Flemish independence is the Vlaams Belang cause -- that's confirmation that Wilders is allying with them.

He's not just supporting independence, he's going full blown loon and taking the Voorpost majority stance of "Heel-Nederlandische" - tearing Flanders away from Belgium and uniting it with the Netherlands. They also want a part of France in the deal.

57 vxbush  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:02:39am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

I think Wilders has more than clarified his stance by his very public actions.

True, but I only know about it because Charles is blogging on it. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else. Charles finds information from all over the Internet and makes sure it gets the bright light it needs.

Now the question may be: how quickly will Wilders scramble to go back into the dark?

58 hazzyday  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:03:36am

I don't letter write much but this year I wrote 6 letters to GoP people and one Fed. No replies from any of them. Not even a "thank you for writing to us" letter or email.

I usually think they don't reply because they don't trust me. They are afraid to put their thoughts to paper and send them to me. But most of these people I wrote to were elected/appointed public servants. Not movie stars, not sports stars, not people who have millions of fans and millions of pieces of fan mail to answer. But they choose to ignore my letter. They were too big to answer me or too small to be courteous.

But i did get added to two mailing lists.

59 ConservatismNow!  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:04:38am

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My bet is the EU will consume itself in the next 10-15 years at its current rate. It will be a footnote by the next century.

They will be a footnote of a footnote, and I, sir, shall be the...NOTE!

60 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:04:54am

re: #55 Ben Hur

For me, it adds to Islam's status as a religion - which it is, but not soley.

If they say that it is not only a religion, I can see that, but those that are trying to remove the protections we afford would not be doing that.

61 jvic  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:05:28am

re: #30 Curtain of Oz

By no means am I supporting the far-right,...

I hear you.

...but I've called it before - this will only get worse.

Probably.

In one positive regard, it is a departure from the pleasant narcissism that defines Europe.

I'm not sure. Resisting Islamist barbarism with Nazi-style barbarism is a dubious improvement.

62 LibraryGryffon  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:07:11am

Re: #36 Honorary Yooper

Google did a nice logo for Darwin's Birthday earlier this year. ([Link: www.google.com...]

What's interesting looking through their collection of holiday logos is that for the last two years they have done one for Veterans' Day even though they still ignore Memorial Day.

63 LilyGecko  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:07:11am

re: #58 hazzyday

But i did get added to two mailing lists.

I emailed all 90 sen. and representatives for our state legislature and got:
4 "Thank you for emailing" letters from secretaries.
2 actual emails from the actual people I emailed
5 mailing lists.

64 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:07:17am
65 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:07:19am

re: #53 Charles

"Flemish independence" is the Vlaams Belang cause -- that's confirmation that Wilders is allying with them.

I figured it was inevitable once he started touring with pamela.

66 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:07:59am

re: #64 taxfreekiller

tfk's e-mail to Pres. B. Obama

Dear Mr. President,

..... Notwithstanding all the other current Democrat party leadership is bat shit crazy commie loons does not mean you have to out do them.

Yours ever true,

taxfreekiller

Subtle and too the point... I like it

67 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:08:04am

re: #23 RockmanVermont

Dueling was outlawed in many states, which is why Hamilton and Burr dueled in New Jersey, not in New York. Andrew Jackson was involved in many duels in Tennessee, and took at least one bullet in a duel.

By Lincoln's time, dueling was in sharp decline. I think Lincoln was in a duel, but his weapon of choice was broadswords, and Lincoln's long arms gave him a reach so obviously overwhelming to his opponent in a sword fight that the opponent backed down.

68 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:08:07am

re: #61 jvic

Resisting Islamist barbarism with Nazi-style barbarism is a dubious improvement.

It's no improvement whatsoever.

69 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:08:54am

re: #56 Thanos

He's not just supporting independence, he's going full blown loon and taking the Voorpost majority stance of "Heel-Nederlandische" - tearing Flanders away from Belgium and uniting it with the Netherlands. They also want a part of France in the deal.

I think I see some good that could come from that, but how is France going to attract all their disaffected "youth" to that region before ceding it to the Netherlands? Fill it with shiny new and flammable cars and hand out matches?
/

70 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:09:19am

re: #55 Ben Hur

How should Europe deal with the 'state within a state' problem then? You have whole communities that institute Shia law in London.

71 LilyGecko  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:10:21am

re: #69 CyanSnowHawk

I think I see some good that could come from that, but how is France going to attract all their disaffected "youth" to that region before ceding it to the Netherlands? Fill it with shiny new and flammable cars and hand out matches?
/

Sorry...I tried to read your quote but got stuck on "flammable" and "matches".

72 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:10:23am

Wilders is now and has always been self serving.

His more extremist views are welcomed by a certain segment of the population in Europe and abroad, and he knows it. Ever since he's become more radical his popularity has skyrocketed.

73 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:10:24am
74 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:11:06am

re: #70 Curtain of Oz

How should Europe deal with the 'state within a state' problem then? You have whole communities that institute Shia law in London.

They could try enforcing their laws. Maybe allow their policeman to have weapons capable of defending that law.

75 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:12:32am

re: #56 Thanos

He's not just supporting independence, he's going full blown loon and taking the Voorpost majority stance of "Heel-Nederlandische" - tearing Flanders away from Belgium and uniting it with the Netherlands. They also want a part of France in the deal.

WTF!?! Does Wilders want to recreate the United Netherlands from the 16th Century?

76 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:12:33am

re: #74 Sharmuta

They could try enforcing their laws. Maybe allow their policeman to have weapons capable of defending that law.

Come on Sharmuta.. you're talking crazy there..

////

77 mrbaracuda  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:12:43am

Aren't the Vlaams Belang people (predominantly) Christian (and Wilders for that matter, who always goes on about Europe's Judeo-Christian heritage)? Call me crazy but I wouldn't want to ally with any religious person or group who'd just be a hypocrite by bashing one religion while clinging to another flavour of the same BS. Do you need such people?

78 LilyGecko  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:13:31am

re: #76 MikeAlv77

Yeah...letting people have weapons is dangerous. Someone could get hurt!

79 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:13:33am

It's really not that difficult- uphold the damn law. Is it legal in europe to burn other peoples' cars? Or walk around the neighborhood attacking the locals?

Try some armed law enforcement. Try some street patrols.

Quit being afraid of defending the law.

80 jvic  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:13:40am

re: #56 Thanos

He's not just supporting independence, he's going full blown loon and taking the Voorpost majority stance of "Heel-Nederlandische" - tearing Flanders away from Belgium and uniting it with the Netherlands. They also want a part of France in the deal.

Greater Germany Nederland.

Three points about the wilderbeests:

1. They're not breeding.
2. The Muslims will be tougher scapegoats than the Jews were.
3. The economy, knock on wood, is not as calamitous as Weimar's was.

81 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:13:51am

re: #76 MikeAlv77

Come on Sharmuta.. you're talking crazy there..

////

I know- I'm outta my mind!

82 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:14:03am
83 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:14:10am

re: #70 Curtain of Oz

How should Europe deal with the 'state within a state' problem then? You have whole communities that institute Shia law in London.

Let's get right down to the bottom line here, do you condemn any European political parties because of their proven ties to racist nationalism, neo-nazism or Euro-nationalism or do you think that these kinds of parties are needed to stem the tide of Islam?

84 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:14:17am

re: #70 Curtain of Oz

How should Europe deal with the 'state within a state' problem then? You have whole communities that institute Shia law in London.

I have no clue.

Europe's hyper immigration from the ME and not from newly freed E Europe has put it in an irreversable bind.

85 Erik The Red  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:16:00am

re: #79 Sharmuta

It's really not that difficult- uphold the damn law. Is it legal in europe to burn other peoples' cars? Or walk around the neighborhood attacking the locals?

Try some armed law enforcement. Try some street patrols.

Quit being afraid of defending the law.

I wonder if the UK even knows what Raise up arms even means. Maybe they think it means putting both arms up over your head.

86 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:16:27am

re: #79 Sharmuta

It's really not that difficult- uphold the damn law. Is it legal in europe to burn other peoples' cars? Or walk around the neighborhood attacking the locals?

Try some armed law enforcement. Try some street patrols.

Quit being afraid of defending the law.

Effen A.

They can scream Islamic supremecism and Sharia till the cows come home. At the end of the day (my most hated term in the world) they must answer to the secular state law of their host countries.

87 tarkus  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:16:27am

This is why I value Little Green Footballs and Charles Johnson so much. He has uncompromising and consistent moral sensibilities.

88 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:17:23am

The issue with all this is I worry that we (The U.S.) will have to pull their "nuts out of the fire" AGAIN when Europe implodes! This is getting old.

89 JHW  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:17:26am

re: #56 Thanos

What a convoluted history that region has, the chart on the right side of this Wiki article is a real jumble of claims and counter-claims.
Southern Netherlands

Something I didn't know before, its history also had a great impact in North America .

War of the Spanish Succession was a war fought in 1701-1714, in which several European powers combined to stop a possible unification of the Kingdoms of Spain and France under a single Bourbon monarch, upsetting the European balance of power. It was fought mostly in Europe, but it included Queen Anne's War in North America.

which was the 2d of 4 French and Indian wars.
War of the Spanish Succession

Queen Anne's war

90 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:17:43am

re: #86 Ben Hur

Effen A.

They can scream Islamic supremecism and Sharia till the cows come home. At the end of the day (my most hated term in the world) they must answer to the secular state law of their host countries.

Only if those host countries uphold that law, Big Guy.

91 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:18:34am

Partial repost...

Of course Rush's new found vocal creationism is appalling.

That said, my only question is whether or not Rush actually believes this BS or if he is simply following the obvious GOP trend towards far right religious politics. Honestly, he may well be that ignorant. More likely, he is just a whore. And this is where I want to get to Gert too. Perhaps he was always a closet NAzi. Perhaps he has become one over time. Perhaps he too is just a whore and the only ones who will be his niche are the Nazis.

We have lost our way very seriously. There are real foes out there arrayed against us, and the proud democracies of the West are acting like anything but proud and strong Republics. We have left too much to the whores - and worse in the case of the fascists.

My only question to the GOP is not about the missing link between our economy and our prosperity, if I were to ask about that, I would ask about the GOPs own repudiation of fiscal conservatism. My question is when did the average Republican become so stupid that they have left their party to the hands of whores, blowhards and morons? When did the average Republican stop being a Republican and when did they get so stupid that they missed the transition?

What we are left with, at home and abroad is useless dogmatism and empty words that are being corrupted by self serving fools. When the words aren't empty, they are terrifying. Some of the fools are spreading evil - like Gert, just up and up evil. Others, like Rush, probably have not really considered the consequences of their foolishness. In the mean time, the world gets more and more dangerous and our "leadership" proves that it is ever more clueless.

We are in real danger of going totalitarian in this country right now. I nver thought I would say such a thing, but the whole point of totalitarianism - at least as far as those who give it power, is that the autocrats promise to simplify things and to make things safe. People give up their freedoms for a little safety and security in a confusing and threatening world.

Science and the uncertainties it poses - the challenge of looking critically are replaced by comfortable Dogma. The perils of Democracy are replaced by comfortable control. You will be well cared for in your box - if you never get out of line.

It is not surprising that we see such an upsurge in the far right, and such a lurch to the right. They will sit around and fume for a few years. If the economy goes belly up and we are hard pressed by foes, the liberals who helped bring it about will be ushered out by a new wave of ready brownshirts.

These are potentially the worst times America has faced.

92 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:20:02am

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote


I heard him yesterday.

He doesn't believe that there has ever been an example of "cross species evolution."

93 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:20:12am

re: #88 MikeAlv77

The issue with all this is I worry that we (The U.S.) will have to pull their "nuts out of the fire" AGAIN when Europe implodes! This is getting old.

Sometimes I wonder if the movie "Children of Men" was part prophecy in the sense that it shows Europe gone to shit.

94 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:20:42am

re: #89 JHW

What a convoluted history that region has, the chart on the right side of this Wiki article is a real jumble of claims and counter-claims.
Southern Netherlands

Something I didn't know before, its history also had a great impact in North America .

War of the Spanish Succession was a war fought in 1701-1714, in which several European powers combined to stop a possible unification of the Kingdoms of Spain and France under a single Bourbon monarch, upsetting the European balance of power. It was fought mostly in Europe, but it included Queen Anne's War in North America.


which was the 2d of 4 French and Indian wars.
War of the Spanish Succession

Queen Anne's war

Do you mean to tell me that there was a possibility of a European people called the Spanks?

95 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:21:32am

re: #89 JHW

Found a map via Wiki that seems to show the areas I think Wilders is after.

Dutch language area. Note how there is a small slice of France next to Flanders.

96 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:22:05am

re: #61 jvic

I don't disagree with you, but I don't expect Europe to articulate an intelligent "humanist" movement to counter the impending doom of that continent. What exactly is that, and how can it spread en-mass in a society full of "humanists" and citizens asleep with a pleasant narcissism?

Like I mentioned before "the slaughterhouse of the 20th century" will most likely pull in one direction hard. Ask yourself, who will get angry and act - do something about it? Keep in mind, I'm not putting a value judgment on it. A collective Continental culture that produced Two World Wars last century has got to be screwed up. US founders called Europe, "Nations of perpetual war" and to make no alliances with them.

Europe is probably lost. And now the "Sickness Unto Death" (to use Kierkegaard's expression) tempts us. Give up your churches. Give up your local organizations. Give up your independent choices about the things that matter. Let the government take care of it - and everything else. Enjoy yourself.

97 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:22:13am

re: #92 Ben Hur

I heard him yesterday.

He doesn't believe that there has ever been an example of "cross species evolution."

I'm not ruling out the possibility that he actually is that stupid and believes it. I just am posing the possibility that he is that much of a whore also. Certainly, all of the GOP is not that stupid - yet, many are obviously going along with it. That makes them whores.

98 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:22:28am

re: #92 Ben Hur

I heard him yesterday.

He doesn't believe that there has ever been an example of "cross species evolution."

Since that phrase is meaningless in a biological sense, he's right. But I doubt he knows why.

99 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:22:35am

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote

UP-DING!

100 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:24:40am
101 jvic  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:25:03am

re: #68 Sharmuta

re: #61 jvic

Resisting Islamist barbarism with Nazi-style barbarism is a dubious improvement.

It's no improvement whatsoever.

Point taken.

Resisting Islamist barbarism with Nazi-style barbarism is a dubious "improvement".

When two evils are great enough, 'lesser' as in 'lesser of two evils', loses its usual meaning.

102 JHW  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:25:14am

re: #95 Honorary Yooper

Thanks, that's interesting in another way. That appears to be the region around Ypres, where Belgian troops held a small enclave to the sea in WW1.

103 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:25:18am

re: #95 Honorary Yooper

Found a map via Wiki that seems to show the areas I think Wilders is after.

Dutch language area. Note how there is a small slice of France next to Flanders.

To go further on that, there is a concept called the "Greater Netherlands" that includes Flanders and part of France. It links to this on the Partition on Belgium.

104 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:25:42am

re: #99 pre-Boomer Marine brat

UP-DING!

I exist to serve.

105 kafir  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:25:59am

Allow me to point out the (blindingly) obvious. You send an email to Geert Wilders, and he doesn't respond. There could be any number of reasons for this, though I will guess a one based upon personal experiences dealing with ... personalities ... out there.

I am betting that the guy gets, I dunno, a coupla-thousand emails per day. So that he missed responding to you, you could take as

a) he inherently disagrees with your position

b) he is pissed at you for the Atlas/Pam Geller bit

c) he really is a nutcase and wants to extract his pound of flesh from those he believes he should be entitled to.

or, possibly

d) He missed your email.

I'd argue, that of all of these, "d" is the highest probability.

People who get a great deal of email tend to scan it. Not read it. You have less than 1 second of their attention, as they read only the Subject/author, if they read anything at all. Most filter a page at a time.

If your email didn't wind up in his spam folder, if he actually read it ... you might not know unless you turned return receipt on, and he enabled sending them. More to the point, he may simply disable return receipt.

Heinlein once said something to the effect of "don't attribute to malfeasance that which may be better explained by ignorance".

I suspect he ignored an email he didn't see, or simply missed it.

That bit of apologia out of the way, you are absolutely correct in taking him to task for some of his recent statements on denying rights to Islamic people.

I am against any laws that inhibit free speech, including the ridiculous laws in Europe over Holocaust denial. Those have to go. What you have to do is shine a big bright light on these idiots, and let them self-destruct. They inevitably do. Even it that free speech calls for my death, dismemberment or whatever. Part of the reason there is so much anti-jihad furor running about is the exposure of this speech to the harsh light of day. Part of the reason there is so little umbrage over what the arabs say amongst themselves about jews and Israel is the lack of this harsh light apart from MEMRI.

I am against any laws inhibiting freedom of religion. This is a slippery slope. Goes downhill damn fast.

Down this path, Europe has repeatedly slid. Various countries persecuted effectively random combinations of "other" religions, usually including jews.

I disagree vehemently with political islam. It should however, not cause the banning of Islam.

Europe hasn't quite learned from its mistakes.

Something I have been talking about for years has been the point at which ordinary people say enough, and start organizing against that which attacks them. What I have been expressing fearfully, for the better part of a decade, has been that people will identify that the threats we live under appear to originate with Islam and its infamous bloody borders, and not seek to address this at an intellectual level, but start down some bad paths.

I think you call this bad craziness.

106 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:25:59am

re: #98 jaunte

Since that phrase is meaningless in a biological sense, he's right. But I doubt he knows why.


I don't know why either, and if someone challenged me with it, I wouldn't have an answer.

I'm fairly new to the issue, compared to the other things I post about here.

107 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:26:03am

Sebastian Rodriguez:

I was walking along Raval (Barcelona) when all of a sudden I understood that Europe died with Auschwitz.

We assassinated 6 million Jews in order to end up bringing in 20 million Muslims!

We burnt in Auschwitz the culture, intelligence and power to create. We burnt the people of the world, the one who is proclaimed the chosen people of God. Because it is the people who gave to humanity the symbolic figures who were capable of changing history (Christ, Marx, Einstein,
Freud…) and who is the origin of progress and wellbeing.

We must admit that Europe, by relaxing its borders and giving in under the pretext of tolerance to the values of a fallacious cultural relativism, opened it’s doors to 20 million Muslims, often illiterates and fanatics that we could meet, at best, in places such as Raval, the poorest of the nations and of the ghettos, and who are preparing the worst, such as the 9/11 and the Madrid bombing and who are lodged in apartment blocs provided by the social welfare.

We also have exchanged culture with fanaticism, the capacity to create with the will to destroy, the wisdom with the superstition. We have exchanged the transcendental instinct of the Jews, who even under the worst possible conditions have always looked for a better peaceful world, for the suicide bomber. We have exchanged the pride of life for the fanatic obsession of death. Our death and that of our children.

What a grave mistake that we made!

108 LilyGecko  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:27:51am

re: #106 Ben Hur

I don't know why either, and if someone challenged me with it, I wouldn't have an answer.

Same here.

109 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:28:29am

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote

I've now read thre transcript of Rushs remarks a few times. In my opinion he's not so much dismissing the find from yesterday nor the ecolutionary significance of it as he's saying lets not let this distract us (hey ,,, look ,,, shiney things) from the vital issues of the day, financial and political

110 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:28:39am

re: #106 Ben Hur

It's an argument that refers back to the idea of Biblical "kinds" of animals, suggesting that evolution is false because there are no cat-dogs or other chimeras. It's just mixing an imaginary view of the world with what has been observed.

111 Land Shark  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:28:48am

Wilders and so many other "anti-jihadis" who want to defend Western culture against Islamization need to understand they will not succeed by aligning themselves with white supremacist / fascist types who really aren't much different than the Islamists who seek to subjugate us. Don't forget that mutual love between Nazis and Islamists.

Both need to be opposed, period.

112 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:30:19am

re: #110 jaunte

It's an argument that refers back to the idea of Biblical "kinds" of animals, suggesting that evolution is false because there are no cat-dogs or other chimeras. It's just mixing an imaginary view of the world with what has been observed.

Has there been cross-species evolution?

Is this where we whip out our platypii?

113 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:30:22am

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

See my reply to JVIC #61. Its not about what I support. My whole extended family was murdered in Europe so I don't care to get involved there, nor do I care to learn about these Der-Stat nutjobs. However, the big-picture: NO, I don't believe Europe will be able to deal with this problem in a civil fashion. The far right will get further out. The only judgment I have made - at least it is a sign that not all of Europe is sleep with pleasant narcissism. Either way, they have a tough road to hoe. No melting pot there. Just two societies that won't be able to reconcile themselves with each other.

114 smokefire  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:30:43am

re: #9 soxfan4life

Yeah, and we will not be sending any troops either

115 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:32:11am

Platypii?

116 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:32:21am

re: #96 Curtain of Oz

The problem with europe is the suffer from the unconstrained mind set- that is, they believe things like peace can be achieved through discussion, and that equality is not "equality of process" but equality of results. That elites know better how to lead the people, and the rule of law is not important. Sound a lot like socialism? It is. The additional problem is that communism and fascism are hybrid visions between the constrained and the unconstrained. Europe lacks a comprehension of the constrained vision altogether, and this gives rise to the variants.

The constrained vision (as a counter example) believes in the rule of law, that equality can only be achieved in the process, not the result. That it is human nature for man to try to dominate other men whether they're a citizen or an elected official, and we deal with it by establishing laws and rights and upholding these.

I'm still struggling to adequately describe these two visions, but if you'd like to learn more about them, read A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell.

117 smokefire  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:32:48am

re: #24 albusteve

if you want it to be....Islam can be anything it wants until it breaks or subverts the law

............you mean it has not broken or subverted any laws yet?//////////////////////

118 alegrias  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:32:49am

OT

Wow, 43 blown up in a car blast in Baghdad, 70 or so wounded.

119 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:33:27am

re: #106 Ben Hur

I don't know why either, and if someone challenged me with it, I wouldn't have an answer.

I'm fairly new to the issue, compared to the other things I post about here.

He means one species mutating and giving rise to another. There are actually countless examples of this. Most biologists would use the term speciesisation. Eventually, there are enough changes in the daughter community, that they could not longer mate with the parent species. This is evolution in action, this is has been seen in many different cases where the chain of ancestry is clear.

Rush is just being exceptionally ignorant.

120 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:33:28am

re: #115 Ben Hur

Platypii?

That's what you call 3.14 platypuses.

121 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:34:01am

re: #120 EmmmieG

That's what you call 3.14 platypuses.

AGH! The pain...

122 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:34:24am

re: #112 Ben Hur

The reason I say "cross-species evolution" is a meaningless term is that the process has been observed: members of a subgroup of one species evolve to the point that they can no longer mate with the original species group, and they are then a new species. If they can mate and produce offspring, they aren't separate species, so yes, there is no "cross species evolution" but it's a pointless and confusing term.

123 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:34:53am

re: #120 EmmmieG

That's what you call 3.14 platypuses.

ugh ,,,, (but updinged! )

124 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:35:18am

re: #119 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #122 jaunte

Understood.

Thanks.

125 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:35:19am

re: #115 Ben Hur

Platypii?

Are you koalaing yourself confused?

126 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:35:20am

It's like talking about "inter-dimensional carpentry."

127 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:35:53am

re: #121 MikeAlv77

AGH! The pain...

ARen't you glad I didn't write "platypussies?"

128 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:35:58am

re: #109 sattv4u2

I've now read thre transcript of Rushs remarks a few times. In my opinion he's not so much dismissing the find from yesterday nor the ecolutionary significance of it as he's saying lets not let this distract us (hey ,,, look ,,, shiney things) from the vital issues of the day, financial and political

Then he could address those things in a meaningful way. Rather than just be a blowhard, he could present an idea or to of something to do and could talk about cleaning up the GOP's own act fiscally and legally. He is very good at screaming populist nonsense and bashing the Dems. He is not very good at actually proposing anything useful. Neither is the rest of the GOP for that matter.

Also, Rush's lunacy on evolution was not the main point of my post at all. Rather I was pointing to it as an example of a larger and more disturbing problem.

129 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:36:06am

re: #118 alegrias

OT

Wow, 43 blown up in a car blast in Baghdad, 70 or so wounded.

Terrible ,,,,,, but that has now become the abberation there rather than the every day (hell ,,, HOURLY) occurance it once was

130 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:36:30am

re: #125 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Are you koalaing yourself confused?

I wish you din' go there...

131 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:36:34am

re: #127 Ben Hur

ARen't you glad I didn't write "platypussies?"

I think that was an 007 movie that got stuck in development.

132 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:36:42am

re: #126 jaunte

It's like talking about "inter-dimensional carpentry."

You should look into string theory sometime.... ;)

133 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:36:56am

re: #118 alegrias

OT

Wow, 43 blown up in a car blast in Baghdad, 70 or so wounded.


Zionist upstarts.

No one kills Muslims more than Zionists.

134 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:37:07am

re: #127 Ben Hur

ARen't you glad I didn't write "platypussies?"

Pl**se d*n't d* th*t.

135 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:37:08am

re: #132 LudwigVanQuixote

Interdimensional plumbing?

136 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:37:29am

re: #74 Sharmuta

They could try enforcing their laws. Maybe allow their policeman to have weapons capable of defending that law.

Aha, but there is the rub: applying our laws to "youths" causes scary responses. These people are not like regular Dutch citizens: they fight back...

In the Diamantbuurt in Amsterdam they have been throwing all sorts of leftist "measures" at a group of "youths". Police have not been able to destroy this gang. It is now called the Van Wougroep and has upgraded from just being a group of annoying kids to a solid gang of criminals, the members have committed theft, burglary, mugging, kidnapping, drug dealing and possession of illegal weapons. Of the 36 "youths" (members of 29 families), 28 are older than 18 (= legal adults). Meanwhile, younger brothers, cousins and nephews are waiting in the wings to join.

New counter measures have just been announced: more soft leftist crap.

The situation in this country is going to hell in a hand basket and 90% is the fault of our own government because they don't enforce the law.

137 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:37:31am

re: #105 kafir

Allow me to point out the (blindingly) obvious. You send an email to Geert Wilders, and he doesn't respond. There could be any number of reasons for this, though I will guess a one based upon personal experiences dealing with ... personalities ... out there.

I am betting that the guy gets, I dunno, a coupla-thousand emails per day. So that he missed responding to you, you could take as

a) he inherently disagrees with your position

b) he is pissed at you for the Atlas/Pam Geller bit

c) he really is a nutcase and wants to extract his pound of flesh from those he believes he should be entitled to.

or, possibly

d) He missed your email.

I'd argue, that of all of these, "d" is the highest probability.

You're wrong.

138 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:37:59am

re: #134 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Pl**se d*n't d* th*t.

Sorry,

I meant, "p****pussies."

139 MikeAlv77  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:38:02am

re: #127 Ben Hur

ARen't you glad I didn't write "platypussies?"

Now that would have been fun.... Might have brought back memories from college...

140 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:38:33am

re: #138 Ben Hur

Sorry,

I meant, "p****pussies."

Th*nk y**.

141 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:38:42am

Doubtless many people will see this post, notify him, and Geert Wilders will have yet another chance to respond. Or not.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:38:51am

re: #107 researchok

Sebastian Rodriguez:

I was walking along Raval (Barcelona) when all of a sudden I understood that Europe died with Auschwitz.

We assassinated 6 million Jews in order to end up bringing in 20 million Muslims!

We burnt in Auschwitz the culture, intelligence and power to create. We burnt the people of the world, the one who is proclaimed the chosen people of God. Because it is the people who gave to humanity the symbolic figures who were capable of changing history (Christ, Marx, Einstein,
Freud…) and who is the origin of progress and wellbeing.

Please don't drag me and mine into this.

There's no connection between the Shoah and Muslim immigration into Europe. There just isn't. It's not a trade down, or a trade up. It's not a trade. It's two things.

And Auschwitz was simply the most visible, out of control expression of a hate that had been fundamental to European culture for a thousand years, and that persists to this day.

Those were people in Auschwitz, not symbols, not sources of wellbeing. Many of them were deeply rooted in a culture whose key figures are not Jesus and Freud, but Rashi and the Rambam.

It's not all about Europe. It never was.

143 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:39:00am

re: #136 infidel4ever

Aha, but there is the rub: applying our laws to "youths" causes scary responses. These people are not like regular Dutch citizens: they fight back...

In America, it's why cops have guns.

144 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:39:03am

re: #105 kafir

And I say you're wrong, because there's more going on behind the scenes than I'm at liberty to make public.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:39:31am

re: #110 jaunte

It's an argument that refers back to the idea of Biblical "kinds" of animals, suggesting that evolution is false because there are no cat-dogs or other chimeras. It's just mixing an imaginary view of the world with what has been observed.

What about ligers?

146 smokefire  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:39:41am

[Link: www.theday.com...]

[Link: www.theday.com...]

Children are so smart today////////////////////////////////////////

This child is dumber than dogshit, and the attorney that is representing her is just as dumb.

147 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:09am

re: #116 Sharmuta

I'll check it out. Thanks for the suggestion. Your comment goes to the heart of what I was trying to explain. I don't know how we can expect Europe to "push back the hoards" on one hand, and then look with amazement when Nazis show up on the scene (considering their history). My Mother used to say it was in their Mother's milk. You also mention socialism, and that was my point about cradle to the grave gov't Mommy-state (my 4-2-1 families comment in the Italy thread).

148 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:24am

re: #128 LudwigVanQuixote

He is not very good at actually proposing anything useful

And just like Glen Beck,(Hannity, O'Reilly, Savage, et al) that is NOT his "job". He is first, second and last an ENTERTAINER.

For the left to lionize him as THE head of the republican party is tiresome
For the right to allow them to do that is unconscionable

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #117 smokefire

............you mean it has not broken or subverted any laws yet?//////////////////////

You know, for all the yelping we do here about collectivism--

Religions don't break laws.

People break laws.

150 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

I think there is a connection.

It's the European knee-jerk "we're not americans" schtick.

The US has their Jews, the Euroes have their Muslims.

I think the Euroes are hyper sensitive to Muslims to try to show that they've changed, and know how to treat a minority.

151 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:44am

re: #135 jaunte

Interdimensional plumbing?

I used to do string theory before I got into nonlinear dynamics. String theories live in very complicated higher dimensional spaces. The mathematics has a lot of very tricky algebra - specifically index gymnastics (manipulating tensors). I used to call it inter-dimensional carpentry - either that or multi dimensional plumbing.

152 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:49am

Europe is close to a tipping point, where the velvet glove of multicultural complacency will be stripped away and the crusader's mailed fist revealed.
This could take the form of some catastrophic event; for example, a gruesome public atrocity by rioting yoots in France followed by the police and Gendarmerie breaking out their machine guns and clearing the streets with a hail of bullets.
The discipline of the security forces has been tested right to the limit many times over the last few years. Sooner or later it will break, somehow, somewhere, and it only takes once to ignite a firestorm.
To continue the analogy, Europe is a tinderbox and the EU bureaucrats are too blinded by their own fallacious ideology to even see the problem let alone deal with it.

153 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:53am

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't think Limbaugh is a careful student of evolution or of creationism. His "creationism", distinguishing between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, is half-assed. That's a way of saying, "I believe in evolution, but I also believe in G-d". It's an inartful straddle. I'm in the same position, but I don't buy into the discredited "micro" versus "macro" evolution. I think evolution a wonder. I don't think it evidence that G-d doesn't exist. I think there's a lot that human minds cannot grasp.

Science is a perpetual argument about what's empirically demonstrable, and what the scientific evidence means. Religion is belief in G-d, which isn't empirically demonstrable using scientific methods. It's the difference between physics and metaphysics.

154 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:58am

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think any fertile male ligers have been found.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:41:36am

re: #126 jaunte

It's like talking about "inter-dimensional carpentry."

I think that's when the desk is so built that anything put on it vanishes into the next dimension.

156 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:41:42am

re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote

I'll have to go back to the analogy shop.

157 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:42:13am

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

What about ligers?

Cats.

158 smokefire  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:42:25am

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

You know, for all the yelping we do here about collectivism--

Religions don't break laws.

People break laws..............in the name of Religions

159 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:42:33am

re: #95 Honorary Yooper

Found a map via Wiki that seems to show the areas I think Wilders is after.

Dutch language area. Note how there is a small slice of France next to Flanders.

Has anyone asked the residents of those areas how they feel about becoming part of the Netherlands?

160 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:42:33am

re: #153 quickjustice

I don't think Limbaugh is a careful student of evolution or of creationism. His "creationism", distinguishing between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, is half-assed. That's a way of saying, "I believe in evolution, but I also believe in G-d". It's an inartful straddle. I'm in the same position, but I don't buy into the discredited "micro" versus "macro" evolution. I think evolution a wonder. I don't think it evidence that G-d doesn't exist. I think there's a lot that human minds cannot grasp.

Science is a perpetual argument about what's empirically demonstrable, and what the scientific evidence means. Religion is belief in G-d, which isn't empirically demonstrable using scientific methods. It's the difference between physics and metaphysics.

This distinction between "micro" and "macro" evolution is yet another in a long line of creationist talking points; the fact that Limbaugh parrots it is simply more proof that he's taking a stand in favor of creationism.

161 LilyGecko  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:42:42am

re: #130 MrSilverDragon

I wish you din' go there...

You are going to roo the day you made that pun....

162 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:42:51am

re: #148 sattv4u2

He is not very good at actually proposing anything useful

And just like Glen Beck,(Hannity, O'Reilly, Savage, et al) that is NOT his "job". He is first, second and last an ENTERTAINER.

For the left to lionize him as THE head of the republican party is tiresome
For the right to allow them to do that is unconscionable

And for Rush to call the fossil bull shit stinks. He is trying to dismiss 2 years of hard science in one sentence and considering his widespread popularity, he did just that. And no, I don't agree he was trying to say "let's not let this science stuff get in the way of more important issues." That's reading a lot more into what he plainly said.

163 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:43:27am

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

In 1492, the Catholic Spanish Crown kicked both Muslims and Jews out of Spain. Within the past thirty years, the Spanish government has apologized to the Jewish community for this. I don't know if Muslims were included in the apology.

164 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:44:11am

re: #140 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Th*nk y**.

Buy a vowel already.

165 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:44:42am

re: #144 Charles

Sad news. I was hoping that he missed the email.

166 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:45:03am

re: #159 doppelganglander

Has anyone asked the residents of those areas how they feel about becoming part of the Netherlands?

Probably as much as anyone asked the Poles in 1939 how they felt about being part of Germany or the Soviet Union.

167 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:45:14am

re: #163 quickjustice

In 1492, the Catholic Spanish Crown kicked both Muslims and Jews out of Spain. Within the past thirty years, the Spanish government has apologized to the Jewish community for this. I don't know if Muslims were included in the apology.

The Jews weren't a foreign occupier for 300 years.

168 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:45:40am

re: #105 kafir

Allow me to point out the (blindingly) obvious.

By the way, I fully expected someone to show up and say that Wilders never read my email, or I sent it to the wrong address, or some other excuse. You might say it was "blindingly obvious."

169 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:46:00am

re: #153 quickjustice

I don't think Limbaugh is a careful student of evolution or of creationism. His "creationism", distinguishing between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, is half-assed. That's a way of saying, "I believe in evolution, but I also believe in G-d". It's an inartful straddle. I'm in the same position, but I don't buy into the discredited "micro" versus "macro" evolution. I think evolution a wonder. I don't think it evidence that G-d doesn't exist. I think there's a lot that human minds cannot grasp.

Science is a perpetual argument about what's empirically demonstrable, and what the scientific evidence means. Religion is belief in G-d, which isn't empirically demonstrable using scientific methods. It's the difference between physics and metaphysics.

One of the more successful lies of the religious right is convincing many people that accepting scientic proof is the the same thing as rejecting G-d. It is presented as an either/or proposition. This is false. You can believe in a creator - who did things in a certain way that we are blessed enough to figure out to some extent.

170 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:46:39am

re: #143 Sharmuta

Our cops have guns too (unlike in Britain). However, draw your weapon and it takes you two days to fill in the paper work...

171 Kenneth  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:47:16am

In his brilliant book The War of the World, Niall Ferguson attempts to explain why the 20th century was so brutally violent. He argues that the worst violence occurs during periods of extreme economic volatility, in areas of mixed ethnic populations where empires or spheres of influence meet and especially when those empires are in collapse. In the early part of the 20th century, those conditions were present in Eastern Europe. The explosive mix gave rise to various violent fascist groups who sought to save their representative populations through communal violence & war.

Today, those conditions are present across a swath of Europe, in the cores of cities or in industrial immigrant suburbs. The ethnic mix, with immigrant populations that refuse to iassimilate and native populations that refuse to accept them. The declining European "empire" is in collision with the economic & political decline, and the demographic expansion of, the Muslim "empire". Add to that, the dramatic economic chaos of the world credit crisis, which has hit Europe especially hard. All the conditions Ferguson identified are present in Europe today. All that is missing is a spark, and we are back to 1914 or 1939 all over again.

172 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:47:56am

re: #170 infidel4ever

Our cops have guns too (unlike in Britain). However, draw your weapon and it takes you two days to fill in the paper work...

I wonder how many lives have been saved because a cop thought "I'd shoot you right now if it wasn't such a hassle!" I'm only being half sarcastic.

173 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:48:14am

re: #164 CyanSnowHawk

Buy a vowel already.

That's become a running gag with BH. Several months ago, the new thread was getting nasty and a bunch of us were hanging out on the old thread, avoiding the carnage. Ben came back over from it, and somehow began using apostrophies "to avoid being whacked for being nice." We gleefully whacked him anyway, ... and so it began.

174 jvic  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:48:22am

re: #96 Curtain of Oz

I don't disagree with you either.

But you're apparently assuming that present trends will continue. I look at history and think that that's not necessarily so, even though I don't see what might reverse today's trends.

I'd like to pursue this discussion. Unfortunately, my grindstone is calling my nose.

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:48:51am

re: #150 Ben Hur

I think there is a connection.

It's the European knee-jerk "we're not americans" schtick.

The US has their Jews, the Euroes have their Muslims.

I think the Euroes are hyper sensitive to Muslims to try to show that they've changed, and know how to treat a minority.

It might be a fair argument that Europe's behavior toward their minority population has something to do with their shame over the events of the Shoah. It probably does. Europeans tend to think it's all about them.

My objection is when we get into idealizing the Jews and playing games about how special and important Jews are to Europe (as compared to Muslims.) And I'm especially sensitive to interpretations like this when the importance of the Jews is shown only through figures that are easily understood and appreciated by gentiles.

I'm ranting. I should save it for the book.

176 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:48:58am

OT--

We were out on vacation and as part of it, saw a little animatronic show with singing animals who want us to know that "there's nothing to be scared of" (in nature), and "nature loves you."

I explained to my children: A. God loves you. Your parents love you. Your grandparents love you (kiss kiss, hug hug). Nature doesn't give a hoot if you live or die.

B. There's plenty to be afraid of in nature. I have two cub scouts, one boy scout, and a camping girl. They actually were able to give me a list of things to be afraid of, including hypothermia, carnivores, and poisonous plants and animals.

Fuzzy-headed thinking. I dislike it.

177 rgranger  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:49:10am

How many here would fight along side Russia to defeat Hitler in WWII? How many would fight alongside a group thay they have moral issues with to defeat an enemy that is out to enslave or kill us Today?

178 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:49:25am

re: #159 doppelganglander

Has anyone asked the residents of those areas how they feel about becoming part of the Netherlands?

I don't think the idea is to join the Netherlands and Flanders. More of a close co-operation, as I understand it.

179 Nevergiveup  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:49:51am

An Egyptian court ordered a government minister to set in motion legislation which would revoke the citizenship of Egyptian nationals married to Israeli citizen

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

I guess that is how you spell "peace" in the Arab World? Good Luck Obama. Please don't get us all killed.

180 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:49:56am

I suspected (fairly early on) that Wilders was a bigot...guess his bigotry has just grown worse over time...more and more obvious, until now he's been formally charged...(Another issue here, though, which bothers me was when I happened to see a special "news" report on Wilders -- years ago now -- from the CBC. The CBC reporter was outraged with Wilders' alleged racism, etc. Yet what I found equally curious was that the reporter expressed zero outrage that due to Wilders' opinions (as obnoxious and bigoted as they are), Wilders' required 24 hour protection due to death threats from the Islamists...and just where was the outrage about the death threats? not to be found...so if/when the Europeans ever begin to apply laws equally -- regardless of who/what "race" is making them -- I figure, until that time arrives, Europe is totally f**d...)

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:50:10am

re: #163 quickjustice

In 1492, the Catholic Spanish Crown kicked both Muslims and Jews out of Spain. Within the past thirty years, the Spanish government has apologized to the Jewish community for this. I don't know if Muslims were included in the apology.

I don't know either. Be interesting to find out.

182 Kenneth  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:50:26am

re: #133 Ben Hur

Zionist upstarts.

No one kills Muslims more than Zionists.

Well, except for other Muslims:

Number of Muslims killed by Israelis in all wars since 1948: 42,000
Number of Muslims killed by Muslims in all wars since 1948: 12,000,000

183 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:50:48am

re: #173 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That's become a running gag with BH. Several months ago, the new thread was getting nasty and a bunch of us were hanging out on the old thread, avoiding the carnage. Ben came back over from it, and somehow began using apostrophies "to avoid being whacked for being nice." We gleefully whacked him anyway, ... and so it began.

So I have observed, but Vanna has to eat.
/

184 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:51:21am

re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist

It might be a fair argument that Europe's behavior toward their minority population has something to do with their shame over the events of the Shoah. It probably does. Europeans tend to think it's all about them.

My objection is when we get into idealizing the Jews and playing games about how special and important Jews are to Europe (as compared to Muslims.) And I'm especially sensitive to interpretations like this when the importance of the Jews is shown only through figures that are easily understood and appreciated by gentiles.

I'm ranting. I should save it for the book.


They were very important to European (or at least German) culture, but I catch your drift.

185 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:51:41am

re: #171 Kenneth

The U.S. is in the same boat, except that we're much better at assimilation.

186 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:52:51am

re: #167 Ben Hur

The Jews weren't a foreign occupier for 300 years.

The Jews were an active part of the foreign occupier's courts, economy and military. Wait, so were a lot of Christians. Darn, this is getting confusing.

Either way, Spain shot itself in the foot good and proper with that one.

187 LilyGecko  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:52:55am

re: #176 EmmmieG

OT--

We were out on vacation and as part of it, saw a little animatronic show with singing animals who want us to know that "there's nothing to be scared of" (in nature), and "nature loves you."

Fuzzy-headed thinking. I dislike it.

I just wanted to know what the whole deal was with scared white boy and caring Indian girl who is one with nature.

If you have time for some creepy dancing and singing trees...
Clock Tower Show

188 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:52:58am

re: #176 EmmmieG

OT--

We were out on vacation and as part of it, saw a little animatronic show with singing animals who want us to know that "there's nothing to be scared of" (in nature), and "nature loves you."

I explained to my children: A. God loves you. Your parents love you. Your grandparents love you (kiss kiss, hug hug). Nature doesn't give a hoot if you live or die.

B. There's plenty to be afraid of in nature. I have two cub scouts, one boy scout, and a camping girl. They actually were able to give me a list of things to be afraid of, including hypothermia, carnivores, and poisonous plants and animals.

Fuzzy-headed thinking. I dislike it.

To a mouse, Icanhazcheezburger is a hate site.

189 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:53:04am

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

One of the more successful lies of the religious right is convincing many people that accepting scientic proof is the the same thing as rejecting G-d. It is presented as an either/or proposition. This is false. You can believe in a creator - who did things in a certain way that we are blessed enough to figure out to some extent.

And that successful lie was in many ways coopted from some of the more vocal people on the other "side" of the argument ... I have personally sat in a classroom and had a teacher/prof "prove" God was dead using "science" and "logic".

Not that I have any use for the State teaching religion ... quite the opposite. Just pointing out that most swords have two edges.

190 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:53:15am

re: #183 CyanSnowHawk

So I have observed, but Vanna has to eat.
/

*smacks forehead*
Y' got me!
:D

191 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:53:25am

re: #186 SanFranciscoZionist

The Jews were an active part of the foreign occupier's courts, economy and military. Wait, so were a lot of Christians. Darn, this is getting confusing.

Either way, Spain shot itself in the foot good and proper with that one.

Effen A.

192 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:53:38am

re: #150 Ben Hur

I think there is a connection.

It's the European knee-jerk "we're not Americans" schtick.

The US has their Jews, the Euroes have their Muslims.

I think the Euroes are hyper sensitive to Muslims to try to show that they've changed, and know how to treat a minority.

Big difference. Jews in the US fought tooth-and-nail to assimilate. Learn the language, to to Ivy schools, get jobs, succeed. Heck, got to a reform or conservative Jewish temple and it looks and sounds like a church. Contrast that with Londistan.

193 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:53:42am

re: #176 EmmmieG

Fuzzy-headed thinking. I dislike it.

Unless you're a G.I. Joe with Kung-Fu grip!

/

194 blangwort  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:53:47am

The key is this: religious, or racial supremacy talk of any sort is toxic. That goes for VB as much as it does for each and every Imam. The answer to Islamic Fundamentalism is not the KKK. It's the rule of law.

And to those Islamic cultures who do not respect Western law: if you choose to live here, you will comply, or suffer the consequences. Shariah may be the law of the land where you're from, but it doesn't apply here and we take a dim view of many of the practices it recommends.

We encourage people to share their cultures with others. We believe in free thought. We expect civil discourse. Insult us, and you won't have any reason to stay because you won't have any friends or supporters to help you.

195 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:53:49am

re: #177 rgranger

Here's the "we allied with Stalin" argument.

US Troops and Soviet troops did not fight side by side on same battle field, we supplied them armaments.

How did that alliance turn out? I remember a long cold war and threats of nuclear annihilation.

piss off

196 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:54:41am

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

You could be right, but I kept coming back to the phrase (but I’m more interested in some other missing link. And that is the missing link between our failing economy and prosperity.) immediatly following the 'rant"

197 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:55:07am

re: #147 Curtain of Oz

I sadly have to agree- they just don't have the mindset to understand the American system and how upholding the law and applying it equally benefits society.

And I do hope you pick up the book- it's changed how I see everything, and for the better.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:56:17am

re: #177 rgranger

How many here would fight along side Russia to defeat Hitler in WWII? How many would fight alongside a group thay they have moral issues with to defeat an enemy that is out to enslave or kill us Today?

Meaning, I interpret, that the likes of me should support European fascists today, in the hopes that they will not kill me until they're done with the Muslims?

199 ConservatismNow!  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:56:45am

re: #110 jaunte

It's an argument that refers back to the idea of Biblical "kinds" of animals, suggesting that evolution is false because there are no cat-dogs or other chimeras. It's just mixing an imaginary view of the world with what has been observed.


With our powers combined!

200 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:57:22am

re: #175 SanFranciscoZionist

It might be a fair argument that Europe's behavior toward their minority population has something to do with their shame over the events of the Shoah. It probably does. Europeans tend to think it's all about them.

My objection is when we get into idealizing the Jews and playing games about how special and important Jews are to Europe (as compared to Muslims.) And I'm especially sensitive to interpretations like this when the importance of the Jews is shown only through figures that are easily understood and appreciated by gentiles.

I'm ranting. I should save it for the book.

I hear your points very well.

However, I think that it would be nice if the contributions of our culture to the West and the progress of civilization were more widely realized as well. I am not trying to turn this into a "oh we are better" comment. We are not better. However, we are always depicted as worse by so many enemies. A useful inoculation might be for the general populace to sit back a moment and appreciate how very much we have accomplished.

We should have nothing to prove. Other people have great scientists and thinkers. However, we are always in the big leagues. Other cultures have had tremendous impact on history for the better. However, we have done much to shape the West for the better. We gave it their conception of G-d and in the West, vast numbers of non-Jews have Hebrew names. We should be respected as a culture. At least as much as the Greeks or the English or anyone else.

Yet, we are still forced to prove that we even have a place at the table when we are one of the mother cultures. I have always felt a great deal of pain about this. We are so small in numbers. We have contributed so much - completely disproportionately to our numbers - and we are hated so thoroughly. When I think about this, I realize that no matter what we do, some will always hate us.

201 aggieann  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:57:31am

re: #67 quickjustice

Dueling was outlawed in many states, which is why Hamilton and Burr dueled in New Jersey, not in New York. Andrew Jackson was involved in many duels in Tennessee, and took at least one bullet in a duel.

By Lincoln's time, dueling was in sharp decline. I think Lincoln was in a duel, but his weapon of choice was broadswords, and Lincoln's long arms gave him a reach so obviously overwhelming to his opponent in a sword fight that the opponent backed down.

Brings to mind the quote from Mark Twain, to the effect that if he were to fight in a duel, he would show up naked since most people didn't die from the actual bullet, but from infections caused by bits of cloth entering the body.

202 Land Shark  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:58:21am

re: #148 sattv4u2

By the way, Rush resigned as titular head of the GOP passing the baton to Colin Powell on his show today.

I think it's wrong to say Rush is an entertainer because he isn't, no matter what he says. He runs a political news and commentary show. He advocates Conservatism. He comments on news stories and other such.

Limbaughs show to me serves a similar purpose as LGF and other such commentary sites, to inform myself on news stories that aren't covered by the MSM or to see what others not in the MSM have to say about the stories they do cover. The thing is to look up things on your own and not depend on just one source. Some have a clear political agenda as Rush does, some don't. I sure as hell don't come to LGF for entertainment, I come here to read news and interesting commentary, same as why I listen to Rush.

Jay Leno, David Letterman and Howard Stern are entertainers. Rush Limbaugh isn't. At least to me.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:58:36am

re: #192 Curtain of Oz

Big difference. Jews in the US fought tooth-and-nail to assimilate. Learn the language, to to Ivy schools, get jobs, succeed. Heck, got to a reform or conservative Jewish temple and it looks and sounds like a church. Contrast that with Londistan.

But look at what was written about Jewish immigrants a century or so ago. We were the unassimilable, robed, bearded, Oriental masses.

(And we must attend different conservative shuls. ;)

204 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:58:43am

re: #201 aggieann

Brings to mind the quote from Mark Twain, to the effect that if he were to fight in a duel, he would show up naked since most people didn't die from the actual bullet, but from infections caused by bits of cloth entering the body.

Not to mention the fact that your opponent would have trouble aiming properly if he was cracking up.

205 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:58:59am

re: #177 rgranger

How many here would fight along side Russia to defeat Hitler in WWII? How many would fight alongside a group thay they have moral issues with to defeat an enemy that is out to enslave or kill us Today?

Churchill and Roosevelt did not ally themselves with Stalin until it became an actual shooting war. We have not yet reached that stage but things may well have to be different if it does.

Winston Churchill, June 22nd 1941:

Noone has been a more consistent opponent of Communism than I have for the last twenty-five years. I will unsay no words that I've spoken about it. But all this fades away before the spectacle which is now unfolding.

The past, with its crimes, its follies and its tragedies, flashes away. I see the Russian soldiers standing on the threshold of their native land, guarding the fields which their fathers have tilled from time immemorial. I see them guarding their homes; their mothers and wives pray, ah yes, for there are times when all pray for the safety of their loved ones, for the return of the breadwinner, of the champion, of their protectors.

I see the 10,000 villages of Russia, where the means of existence was wrung so hardly from the soil, but where there are still primordial human joys, where maidens laugh and children play I see advancing upon all this, in hideous onslaught, the Nazi war machine, with its clanking, heel-clicking, dandified Prussian officers, its crafty expert agents, fresh from the cowing and tying down of a dozen countries. I see also the dull, drilled, docile brutish masses of the Hun soldiery, plodding on like a swarm of crawling locusts. I see the German bombers and fighters in the sky, still smarting from many a British whipping, so delighted to find what they believe is an easier and a safer prey. And behind all this glare, behind all this storm, I see that small group of villainous men who planned, organized and launched this cataract of horrors upon mankind.

And then my mind goes back across the years to the days when the Russian armies were our Allies against the same deadly foe when they fought with so much valor and constancy and helped to gain a victory, from all share in which, alas, they were, through no fault of ours, utterly cut off.

I have lived through all this and you will pardon me if I express my feelings and the stir of old memories. But now I have to declare the decision of His Majesty's Government, and I feel sure it is a decision in which the great Dominions will, in due course, concur. And that we must speak of now, at once, without a day's delay. I have to make the declaration, but can you doubt what our policy will be?

We have but one aim and one single irrevocable purpose. We are resolved to destroy Hitler and every vestige of the Nazi regime. From this nothing will turn us. Nothing. We will never parley; we will never negotiate with Hitler or any of his gang. We shall fight him by land; we shall fight him by sea; we shall fight him in the air, until, with God's help, we have rid the earth of his shadow and liberated its people from his yoke.

Any man or State who fights against Nazism will have our aid. Any man or State who marches with Hitler is our foe.

206 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:59:10am

re: #170 infidel4ever

Our cops have guns too (unlike in Britain). However, draw your weapon and it takes you two days to fill in the paper work...

It should be a pain in the ass for law enforcement to do their job. Rules and regulations are great, but tie the hands of the law and you get lawlessness.

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:00:29pm

Dang. I need to go to work. Why does work keep happening? Six days a week, I have to stop playing on the computer and go to work. And on the seventh day I usually sleep way too long.

208 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:00:29pm

re: #185 quickjustice

The U.S. is in the same boat, except that we're much better at assimilation.

To the chorus of 'We Are The World'

We are the borg
We are collective
We are the one who make a better way
Assimilating
There's a choice we've made
We're taking your own likeness
It's true we'll add it to our way
Just you and us

209 Captain Cool  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:00:51pm

Communities of Muslims will always wage war against non Muslims whenever it's expedient. Where would Spain be today if they just let the Moors practice their religion in peace?

210 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:01:22pm

re: #202 Land Shark

Jay Leno, David Letterman and Howard Stern are entertainers. Rush Limbaugh isn't. At least to me.

Ah ,, but he is. The others you mention just do it under a different guise (mostly non-political) and with a different forum (TV and in Sterns case born from the rock DJ days)
Rush filled a void in the 'entertainment" venue and it took hold

211 wiffersnapper  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:01:54pm

Geert had such promise. It's sad to see him go off the deep end.

212 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:02:20pm

Nauseating:

How Obama is like Spock.

President Obama has seen the new Star Trek movie. "Everybody was saying I was Spock, so I figured I should check it out," he told Newsweek, making the Vulcan salute with his hand.

[ snip ]

There's also one other big flaw in the analogy. Apparently in the new Star Trek movie, Spock actually loses his cool for a moment and shows his emotion. That would never happen with President Obama.

213 LilyGecko  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:02:27pm

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

Dang. I need to go to work. Why does work keep happening? Six days a week, I have to stop playing on the computer and go to work. And on the seventh day I usually sleep way too long.

WorkCat

214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:03:08pm

Sorry for interrupting guys. Stopped in a hotel lobby to check LGF...previous thread?

Heh.

215 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:03:47pm

re: #208 CyanSnowHawk

Techie OT:

The IEEE has just elevated me from Associate Member to full Member.
Should I swoon?

/no, they say the dues won't increase

216 JHW  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:04:09pm

re: #195 Thanos

People bringing this up apparently aren't aware that we had no formal alliance with the Soviets. I have a neighbor that was a crewman on a B-29, his plane was damaged on a raid over Japan and made a crash-landing in the Soviet Far eastern territories. The crew was interned, by the Soviets, until nearly the end of WW2 when the USSR belatedly entered the war against Japan. He definitely does not consider them as allies, such as the UK, Canada, Australia, etc.

217 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:04:26pm

re: #214 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry for interrupting guys. Stopped in a hotel lobby to check LGF...previous thread?

Heh.

SELL MORE KITCHENZ!

/

heh indeed ;)

218 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:04:42pm

re: #215 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Techie OT:

The IEEE has just elevated me from Associate Member to full Member.
Should I swoon?

/no, they say the dues won't increase

This calls for a drink!

219 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:04:53pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

But look at what was written about Jewish immigrants a century or so ago. We were the unassimilable, robed, bearded, Oriental masses.

(And we must attend different conservative shuls. ;)

And THAT was by German Jews in America!

220 Kenneth  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:05:26pm

re: #185 quickjustice

I disagree that the US is in the same boat at all.

In Europe, the largest percentage of immigrants are Muslims. Europeans make little or no attempt to integrate them into their native societies. Racism and economic exploitation are standard. The first time I traveled to Europe, I was shocked at the degree of racism that was publicly shared, without shame.

In America, overt racism is socially unacceptable and political suicide. Immigrants in America are from many different ethnic & religious backgrounds. Most natural born Americans have ancestry from some other country in their recent family history. America does welcome & assimilate immigrants. Most immigrants do want to assimilate. Yes, you can point to exceptions, but in the main the contrast with Europe is dramatic.

Finally, contrary to recent reports, America is not in decline. There is no other imperial power edging into America. And while the economic crisis has hit America, the effects are less severe in the US than in Europe or other parts of the world. America also has a strong, resilient and well established democracy, unlike most of Europe. The conditions for the rise of violent fascism are not present in America.

221 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:06:05pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

Please don't drag me and mine into this.

There's no connection between the Shoah and Muslim immigration into Europe. There just isn't. It's not a trade down, or a trade up. It's not a trade. It's two things.

And Auschwitz was simply the most visible, out of control expression of a hate that had been fundamental to European culture for a thousand years, and that persists to this day.

Those were people in Auschwitz, not symbols, not sources of wellbeing. Many of them were deeply rooted in a culture whose key figures are not Jesus and Freud, but Rashi and the Rambam.

It's not all about Europe. It never was.

Actually, it is very much about Jews.

Europe has bent over backwards to accommodate their Muslim citizens and much of their agenda because they are looking for a way- any way- to exculpate their behavior prior to and after WWII.

The Europeans are only too happy to find a reason to excoriate Jews (read: Israel) because they desperqately want to believe that Jews were not innocent victims and thus their behavior is somewhat mitigated.

Adopting a pro Muslim agenda kills two birds with one stone- they feel better about themselves as it relates to the Jews and they feel better because they are so accommodating to the Arabs.

Of course, it didn't quite work out that way.

222 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:06:41pm

re: #215 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Techie OT:

The IEEE has just elevated me from Associate Member to full Member.
Should I swoon?

/no, they say the dues won't increase

Welcome aboard. Try not to snore at the meetings.

223 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:11pm
224 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:28pm

re: #148 sattv4u2

He is not very good at actually proposing anything useful

And just like Glen Beck,(Hannity, O'Reilly, Savage, et al) that is NOT his "job". He is first, second and last an ENTERTAINER.

For the left to lionize him as THE head of the republican party is tiresome
For the right to allow them to do that is unconscionable

And the GOP is so rudderless right now that he, and other entertainers, are their voice - when it isn't the fractious voices of the totally crazy. THAT is the problem.

225 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:40pm

re: #220 Kenneth

The first time I traveled to Europe, I was shocked at the degree of racism that was publicly shared, without shame.

totally agree. Most don't even try to hide it...

226 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:53pm

re: #160 Charles

The creationists have done a wonderful job of using their language to define the debate, rather than the scientists who have the facts and science on their side. It's little wonder that Rush and others who are defending him on this are caught in this mess. They want to pander to the religious right, but at the same time claim that they're not anti-Science.

Going back to 2007, a there is a large percentage of Americans who doubt evolution. Overall, 49% believe in evolution, while 48% do not. A strong majority of self-declared GOPers didn't believe in evolution (60/30), but large numbers of Independents (61 believe /37 don't believe) and Democrats (57 believe /40 don't).

The problem for the GOP is that so many of their leaders are cheerleading the creationist/ID/YEC line, and Democrats are apparently doing a better job of hiding their intentions on the matter. The issue comes to a head on the matter of teaching evolution in schools, and it's always been my position that creationism should not be taught in science class because it is not science - it's religion/philosophy, and attempts to include it water down science class and undermine the nations' scientific literacy. And belief in evolution is clearly tied to education level as well.

227 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:08:19pm

re: #211 wiffersnapper

Geert had such promise. It's sad to see him go off the deep end.

He still has a lot of promise, as a fascist.

228 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:08:25pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

Well, that is what we have. More and more every day.
One example:

A group of Moroccan "youths" enters a supermarket, threaten the personel, steal stuff, vandalize the shop. While the police is inside the supermarket, friends of those Moroccans thughs break the windows of their police car.

The police called this vandalism a "boyish prank, nothing to get excited about". Only after it got into the press and there was a big stink, did they apprehend six "youths". (who have probably had a stern talking to, a pat on the head, and are out on the street committing more "pranks" as we speak...

They only enforce the law when they feel like it. Like when you drive 5 km too fast on an empty highway. Or when you are a politician such as Wilders who threatens their cushy seat in the halls of power...

229 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:08:49pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

The problem is far greater then cops carrying guns. Read Mark Steyn's "America Alone". The problem is that the cop carrying the gun will be Muslim and will be enforcing Islamic law. Try chewing on that one.

230 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:09:53pm
231 Liberal Classic  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:10:14pm

Off topic for this thread, but this is a website that documents many different kinds of hybrids, including big cats, with many pictures and references:

[Link: www.messybeast.com...]

Part of the problem in understanding evolution comes because people love to categorize things. We're great "namers." The "tree of life" is a hierarchical structure showing discrete branches, and the classification system (genus and species) we use to build the tree attempts to classify beings into discrete groups. However, life isn't like this. Life is more like a continuous spectrum. Think of a rainbow. There is some inherent inaccuracy in trying to "digitize" (for lack of a better word) the variety of life forms we observe. It's like saying their are different "kinds" of light such as red, orange, green, blue, indigo.

(don't anyone dare tell me that light has discrete energy levels, I'm making an analogy)

232 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:05pm

re: #229 Curtain of Oz

I wonder how the Muslims persuaded Europeans to stop having children?
[Link: www.rand.org...]

233 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:38pm

re: #212 HelloDare

Nauseating:

Maybe they're on to something. The thing I took away from the new Star Trek with regard to Vulcans is that they're a bunch of racists who demand conformity and subsume the individual to the state.

234 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:58pm

re: #215 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Techie OT:

The IEEE has just elevated me from Associate Member to full Member.
Should I swoon?

/no, they say the dues won't increase

Congrats.

235 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:01pm
236 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:38pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but the Muslims are taking a very different trajectory. Any the Jews could have never overwhelmed the USA. Demographic in Europe make addressing the issue far more critical.

When I do go (few and far between), it is O. Not Ref or Conserv.

237 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:00pm

re: #218 OldLineTexan

This calls for a drink!

Hmm, hadn't thought of that.
What've I got under the kitchen sink?

238 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:49pm

re: #226 lawhawk

Science is not a democracy. One of the things that bothers me about people who want to have scientific "debate" is that they seem to think they have the knowledge to actually debate.

The fact that the average person is ignorant enough to think that their opinion on something they know nothing about matters is not surprising. I am all for people learning the facts and educating themselves. If they did, they would not doubt evolution or any other well proven mature theory.

I am all for telling morons who don't know what they are talking about to shut up and go study a little. I am tired of the way that science, which takes years of hard work to learn is seen as something so trivial, that any old person can now just say something meaningful as if their opinion has the same weight as evidence and disciplined thinking. There is a certain profound disrespect that I am bridling against.

It would be rude, to say the least, to "debate" with a surgeon on how to crack a chest if one had never been to medical school. That does not mean that someone can't learn this. It does mean that unless they have, they should have some respect.

239 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:22pm

re: #224 LudwigVanQuixote

And the GOP is so rudderless right now that he, and other entertainers, are their voice - when it isn't the fractious voices of the totally crazy. THAT is the problem.

No ,, THE problem is that we have let the left annoint him as "the voice". We are in between election cycles right now. Between losing the election in 2004 to George Bush and choosing Obama in 2008 the DEMS were "ruderless". Didn't seem to hurt them come November 2008. I think that is the most overused phrase in our lexicon right now.

240 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:05pm

re: #222 CyanSnowHawk

Welcome aboard. Try not to snore at the meetings.

*bubbles*

HUH?! ... someone say something?!

241 Abu Lahab  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:17:17pm

If some think that he did not answer the e-mail because he missed it, then why did not he answer the criticism he got for his alliances? Did he also miss that?
And now that the e-mail is published, will he address it? If you say yes, then you are dreaming.
The whole idea of banning a belief system, regardless of what we think of it, is stupid and dreamy. Maybe this is the European-style approach to problems-solving: Not solving them.

242 aggieann  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:18:59pm

re: #229 Curtain of Oz

The problem is far greater then cops carrying guns. Read Mark Steyn's "America Alone". The problem is that the cop carrying the gun will be Muslim and will be enforcing Islamic law. Try chewing on that one.

This is the real issue, and one that Americans don't fully appreciate. Here, it's still an "us" and "them" issue--unassimilated Muslims are still the "other." In Europe, because of the demographic tidal wave, this distinction is rapidly diminishing. It will still be nominally Europe, but without Western culture, history or values.

243 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:16pm

re: #232 jaunte

I wonder how the Muslims persuaded Europeans to stop having children?
[Link: www.rand.org...]

What is wrong with having only two children if that is what you want?
The idiotic idea is to then fill up your country with people who can't read and write, but can breed like rabbits while we take care of all their needs. And then expect everything to turn out hunky dory...

244 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:31pm

re: #234 Thanos

Congrats.

Thanks. I joined as an Associate years ago, because my degree is non-technical. Now they say length of membership and work experience qualifies me for the "more exalted" status.

245 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:41pm

re: #239 sattv4u2

No ,, THE problem is that we have let the left annoint him as "the voice". We are in between election cycles right now. Between losing the election in 2004 to George Bush and choosing Obama in 2008 the DEMS were "ruderless". Didn't seem to hurt them come November 2008. I think that is the most overused phrase in our lexicon right now.

And why did the GOP loose? Unless and until it looks into it's own failings and gets back to it's core, it will continue to fail. It is not all Obama's fault. We did not "let" him win. We got our asses kicked because we deserved to. The GOP squandered it's opportunities and failed.

The way forward is to actually be real, sane, fiscally conservative Republicans who actually are not anti-science and actually have a clue themselves about the economy and foreign policy. All of this talk about the power of O, as if we did not fail only makes him sound super human. He isn't. Neither are we. We failed in an all to human manner.

246 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #232 jaunte

I wonder how the Muslims persuaded Europeans to stop having children?
[Link: www.rand.org...]

I've been stating that through this thread. One issue I have with that article - it proposed gov't policies to deal with it. When the gov't came in and gave 'cradle to grave' protection, birth rates dropped. Read my #30 or #96.

247 JHW  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:20:32pm

Official position, US Department of State
The United States, the Soviet Union, and the end of WW2
Sam Savignac's Diary, 77th Bomb Squadron, USAAF
Interned in the USSR, after bombing raid over Japan

248 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:52pm

re: #243 infidel4ever

Nations need to have children, or disappear. Watch this and comments:

249 SFGoth  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:26pm

Don't take it personally Charles, I ignore the Census Bureau. If anyone cares to send me snail mail, I can be reached at Cellblock H....

250 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:33pm

re: #248 Curtain of Oz

Nations need to have children, or disappear. Watch this and comments:

Would there be a tsunami of little Muslim baby's if the West was not paying for them?

251 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:35:25pm

re: #177 rgranger

How many here would fight along side Russia to defeat Hitler in WWII? How many would fight alongside a group thay they have moral issues with to defeat an enemy that is out to enslave or kill us Today?

No fascists in my foxhole.

252 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:35:56pm

re: #177 rgranger

How many here would fight along side Russia to defeat Hitler in WWII? How many would fight alongside a group thay they have moral issues with to defeat an enemy that is out to enslave or kill us Today?

Face palm. Not this again.

If you want to promote making alliances with European fascist groups because you're just terrified of Muslims, you are at the wrong website. I suggest you go over to jihadwatch or one of the other hate sites, where you'll find a whole lot more people who hate Muslims so much they're willing to jump into bed with neo-Nazis.

253 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:37:49pm

re: #229 Curtain of Oz

Sorry- I'm not so sure of Mr Steyn as a source anymore. I have serious reservations about anyone pushing the Eurabia meme now, as my own private research has shown there are inconsistencies with this "theory".

254 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:40:51pm

re: #250 infidel4ever

Far question. A little story: I visited Israel a few months ago. I was in the South and needed to mail something. That particular day of the month was the day women collected a check per child from the gov't. The line was out the door. Bedouin women have 8, 10, 15 kids. Men have multiple wives so one family might have 50 kids. A complete racket. Similar situation with the religious Jews (1 wife, 1 husband though).

We (or at least Europe) have a little problem then don't we? How do you populate with YOUR people. Europeans can't be bothered to have kids, even if the gov't is paying for them.

255 JHW  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:40:55pm

re: #247 JHW

And one more post about our "ally" in WW2 may be of interest to some. This from the national Museum of the US Air Force.

The plane was still over Japanese territory so the crew began destroying all classified material on board including operating manuals, orders and instructions in case they were forced down in enemy territory. Small objects and shredded paper materials (flight manuals, checklists, placards, code books, etc.) were dumped into the nose wheel well. In the meantime, the pilot headed toward the Russian base at Vladivostok to land the damaged plane in Allied territory. As the bomber approached a Russian airfield, a squadron of fighters was scrambled to "escort" the plane. The Russian planes fired near the B-29, but it was unclear whether they were trying to hit the plane or force it down. After a few minutes of this, a Russian fighter pilot motioned for the plane to land. The B-29 began to head toward a field with a concrete runway, but the fighters started shooting again and indicated the plane should land at the grass fighter strip. Although the grass field was too small for a B-29, Capt. Jarrell lined up to land since he had no choice. As he lowered the landing gear, all the shredded material in the nose wheel well streamed out and fell into the waters of Vladivostok Bay. The plane touched down at just above stalling speed and stopped just before running off the end of the runway.

After landing, Capt. Jarrell ordered the crew to stay aboard the B-29 while he left and tried to communicate with the Russian pilots, but none spoke English. A few hours later, the crew left the plane and joined Capt. Jarrell. Capt. Jarrell asked to be allowed to contact the American Consul in the city, but permission was denied. The Russian "Allies" interrogated the American crew for three days trying to obtain operational details about the plane and its capabilities. The crew refused to divulge secret information and after three days of questioning without contact from the American Consul, the crew refused to even speak for a week. On the 11th day after landing, the crew was finally able to speak with the Consulate. Unfortunately, the crew was not released to the consulate and remained prisoners of the Russians for seven months before being released along with about 100 other U.S. Army and Navy fliers forced to land in Russian territory during WWII.

The Russians kept the "Ramp Tramp" in spite of American protests, along with three other B-29s that landed on Soviet territory (two made similar emergency landings in Vladivostok and the other crash landed in Siberia). The Tupolov aircraft manufacturer examined the B-29s in minute detail and copied them almost exactly (a fairly remarkable engineering feat). The resulting plane was designated TU-4 (NATO code name BULL). The TU-4 remained the Soviet Union's primary long-range bomber until about 1955 when it was phased out in favor of newer types. Several TU-4s were transferred to the Communist Chinese Air Force in the mid-1950s and continued to serve for many more years.


USAF National Museum

And Tupolev Tu-4

256 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:43:41pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Come with it man, bring forth your "private research"! Perhaps he is alarmist, perhaps not. No need to look at statistics. Visit Paris, Brussles, London and tell me its fantasy.

257 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:06pm

re: #254 Curtain of Oz

Far question. A little story: I visited Israel a few months ago. I was in the South and needed to mail something. That particular day of the month was the day women collected a check per child from the gov't. The line was out the door. Bedouin women have 8, 10, 15 kids. Men have multiple wives so one family might have 50 kids. A complete racket. Similar situation with the religious Jews (1 wife, 1 husband though).

We (or at least Europe) have a little problem then don't we? How do you populate with YOUR people. Europeans can't be bothered to have kids, even if the gov't is paying for them.

The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Are you suggesting we keep on breeding until we have standing room only?

258 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:17pm

re: #254 Curtain of Oz

imo, the whole claim about doing "body counts" is (when you peel it back) a form of bigotry. why? because just doing some stupid body count tells you absolutely NOTHING about what a person believes. (there was a film/video broadcast here on a cable channel -- it was a documentary -- a fellow took an Israeli flag and then went traveling throughout Israel, and simply asked people what the Israeli flag meant to them...Some of the most patriotic statements happened to come from Bedouins...and some of the less than, shall we say, "patriotic" statements came from certain other "citizens" of Israel...)

259 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:48:23pm

re: #256 Curtain of Oz

First- I'm not a man.

There is no doubt in my mind it's a problem. But I earlier linked to an study that shows muslim fertility rates in europe are dropping. I need to continue my research, but if that piece of the puzzle isn't fitting, I have to wonder about the rest. (That link is on the Italy thread BTW) I'm going to keep digging when time permits.

260 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:48:28pm

re: #252 Charles

Charles, I was questioning how this can be done in my comments on #30, #96, #113. In short, we want to fight back the 'hoards' but are alarmed when we see who walks in the door. Would love to hear your feedback.

261 irish rose  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:00pm

Nicely written Charles, pleasant and respectful.

It does speak volumes that six months have now passed and you never received a single word in reply from Mr. Wilders. He would have done well to do so, given the significiant exposure that his letter to you clarifying his position on the matter would have received.

262 SFGoth  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:37pm

re: #259 Sharmuta

First- I'm not a man.

There is no doubt in my mind it's a problem. But I earlier linked to an study that shows muslim fertility rates in europe are dropping.

Hmmmm, so that Israeli virus is working after all....
/sarc

263 infidel4ever  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:00pm

re: #254 Curtain of Oz

Besides, immigrants who integrate into our society also tend to start having less children with each generation. Simply because they get a better education, marry later, and also get interested in having a career.

The problem with the Muslims is that they keep getting (virgin/better Muslim) brides from the homeland, who have been raised to be stay at home mothers and homemakers, and so have half a dozen kids (that we pay for). Basically every one of those marriages (often arranged, to a cousin) brings a new load of 7th century crap into the country. Not helpful.

264 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:59pm

re: #259 Sharmuta

Sorry, assumption I made b/c I never dreamed a female would call herself Sharmuta. I also took his book with a grain of salt - I don't think the graph will continue indefinitely (will all those poor kids also have 6 poor kids?). However, it does speak to the fact that Europe is a 'cut flower' society - nice to look at, with little future.

265 irish rose  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:55:11pm

re: #252 Charles

... where you'll find a whole lot more people who hate Muslims so much they're willing to jump into bed with neo-Nazis.deport every single Muslim man, woman and child in Europe regardless of citizenship, and gun any of them who resist down in the streets.

Sorry, just had to.

266 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:57:04pm

re: #245 LudwigVanQuixote

conservatism has a well defined core, the GOP does not....just a small point

267 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:32pm

re: #258 J.S.

imo, the whole claim about doing "body counts" is (when you peel it back) a form of bigotry. why? because just doing some stupid body count tells you absolutely NOTHING about what a person believes. (there was a film/video broadcast here on a cable channel -- it was a documentary -- a fellow took an Israeli flag and then went traveling throughout Israel, and simply asked people what the Israeli flag meant to them...Some of the most patriotic statements happened to come from Bedouins...and some of the less than, shall we say, "patriotic" statements came from certain other "citizens" of Israel...)

I served in the army with Bedouins and Druze. I don't need to watch documentaries on their commitment. However, go visit the South. You are not safe driving into these towns. Should Israelis bankroll that kind of welfare? You could call our whole perspective on Islam "bigoted". I have an issue with Islamic fundamentalism, and even in "moderate" communities, there is sympathy for extremism.

268 aggieann  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:06:48pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Sorry- I'm not so sure of Mr Steyn as a source anymore. I have serious reservations about anyone pushing the Eurabia meme now, as my own private research has shown there are inconsistencies with this "theory".

Please elaborate. I find the topic intriguing.

269 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:15:57pm

re: #46 Honorary Yooper

That expalins Belien, but Zombie and I were discussing why little Belgium seems to be the epicenter for so much in Europe. They were at the heart of the von Schlieffen Plan. They were home to the Ardennes, where the Germans came through in 1940. They are home to the EU. They are also home to both the Walloons and the Flemmings, as well as the Vlaams Belang.

I taught a world history class once in which the Schlieffen Plan became ridiculously important, simply because one of my students liked saying 'van Schlieffen'.

270 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:22:33pm

re: #267 Curtain of Oz

I was objecting to your earlier comment in which you wrote: "Bedouin women have 8, 10, 15 kids. Men have multiple wives so one family might have 50 kids. A complete racket. Similar situation with the religious Jews (1 wife, 1 husband though)." It makes it sound as if the mere fact of having children is a "crime." (And, if individuals are somehow taking advantage of an existing, legally OK, "system" -- payments for having children -- then, perhaps, if there's a "problem" with this, then the proper avenue to rectify this "problem" is with the legislation itself...change the legislation, but don't suggest that the people are somehow criminals...) (personally, whenever I hear statements such as "hordes of them" or "they're breeding like rabbits" -- I'm thinking, "bigot.") Having said that, obviously, that does not negate (nor refute) the very real problem of radical, extremist Islam.

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:23:00pm

re: #209 Captain Cool

Communities of Muslims will always wage war against non Muslims whenever it's expedient. Where would Spain be today if they just let the Moors practice their religion in peace?

I don't know, but I do know what kicking out the Moors and the Jews got Spain. Hundreds of years after that shining moment they were burning people at the stake, and doctors complained that if you went into medicine you were suspected of being a secret Jew.

Moorish society, on the other hand, was pretty damn nice by the admittedly low standards of the Middle Ages.

272 erraticsphinx  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:29:45pm

re: #263 infidel4ever

You're making a lot of crazy as hell statements with no facts to back them up.
Or am I in the minority here?

273 Curtain of Oz  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:39:49pm

re: #270 J.S.

I think its a "crime" when I'm paying taxes to feed these 15 kids. I have an even bigger problem when then are raised to hate Jews or Americans. As far as the bigot talk - this is something I've been posting all day: we claim we don't like fundamentalism yet are alarmed at right wing extremism. There is a fundamental problem with being "liberal" and then dictating those morals on another people. It is a Pandora's box (look at Charley's interaction with the right wing). What is a "humanist" position against Islam? Hard to articulate.

274 Wishbone  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:44:15pm

re: #170 infidel4ever

Our cops have guns too (unlike in Britain). However, draw your weapon and it takes you two days to fill in the paper work...

You know, I have to ask just which fucking bubble some of you have been living in sometimes. Poster 'Oslogin' over on teh Italy thread says something pertinent here:

But then: Half of what I read about Europe in the American blogosphere is unrecognisable. Half of the rest is rubbish.

No shit, sunshine. I tell you something........ There's going to be a lot of British fuzz awfully upset that their MP5's and Glocks are just imaginary constructs dredged up from their subconscious in order to justify the feeling that they're packing more in their pants than reality (or their girlfriends) would suggest.

I can't wait to tell them.

275 Dag Nabbitt  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:04:18pm

re: #253 SharmutaDo tell. Where is Steyn so wrong? My 9 years in 3 different European countries tells me he's basically correct. The place is being Islamified via liberal immigration practices and birthrate differences.

276 ihateronpaul  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:03:45pm

re: #254 Curtain of Oz

maybe most sane parents realize they can't AFFORD to have more than 2 or 3 kids, especially in an economic situation such as this where jobs are not nearly as secure as they used to be, and pensions/benefits that help out a lot get cut all the time.

277 abolitionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:07:09pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

It should be a pain in the ass for law enforcement to do their job. Rules and regulations are great, but tie the hands of the law and you get lawlessness.

Should be?

278 offendi  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:44:48pm

It is sadly ironic to watch Obama attempt to turn America into a socialist European state when the reason the Europeans essentially became socialist was to repress the monarchist, nationalist, and fascist strains that afflicted them that led to two world wars as well as more regionalized conflicts. Given their history and the reality of their Eurabia future is there any doubt there would be a reaction against Islam as there is now shaping up to be?
On the other hand it is hard to be sympathetic to those who do not recognize the freedom of religion of others, or wish to truly assimilate as participating members of a country or countries that have accepted them, offer them homes, jobs, or in many cases, the public dole. Noting the lack of churchs being built in Saudi Arabia, the flight in droves of Palestinian Christians from their fellow, but muslim Palestinians, persecution of Copts in Egypt, and the many examples both big and small of Muslim rejection of the freedom of religion of Christians.

What is the solution? Perhaps the best solution for us is to learn from other countries' mistakes and limit immigration from the Middle East for the foreseeable future and react quickly and with determination against extremists living in our midst. Is this really racist? Who knows, but burying your head in the sand and denying reality like the Europeans did for years seems a greater offense.

279 kafir  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:48:50pm

re: #144 Charles

It is quite possible I am wrong. Just pointing out alternative explanations that, to those without this missing information, not for public consumption, might in fact arrive at.

I don't assume people who don't respond to my emails have an agenda. I assume they are busy.

This said, again, I think his train got derailed at some point. I remain hopeful that it gets back on track. But emotions run high, and it isn't likely that he will.

280 kafir  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:52:49pm

wow... 3 comments to my post? Gee ... didn't mean to irk you there Charles.

You are privy to info we don't have. I respect that. And I'll take you at your word that I am wrong.

281 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:43:12pm
282 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:56:23pm

re: #281 PRCS

Bye now. If you want to support Wilders' idea of banning Islam, try jihadwatch. I'm sure they'll be more open to your bigotry over there.

283 erraticsphinx  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:18:53pm

re: #278 offendi

If it's racist depends on what reacting "quickly and with determination" means.

284 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:04:05pm
285 Macker  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:43:41pm

re: #28 Alouette

Banning Islam is not going to stop radical Islam. On the contrary it will make all of Islam into radical Islam.

If Islam is to survive the 21st Century, it MUST undergo a Reformation. If they don't, those Muslims who survive will just keep blaming the JOOOOOOS!

286 theworldisnotenough  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:54:17pm

It is too late, a civil war is coming...

Better to draw down US forces in Western Europe or be drawn into the eventual conflict.

287 shortshrift  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:00:27pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

You mention your private research into the Eurabia meme/theory. Perhaps you would be prepared to post some of it here? I know sometimes it is hard to go public with work not yet completed, but this is a hugely important issue and I am very curious to know your thoughts.

288 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:11:24am

re: #287 shortshrift

My thoughts are that we've been had by a bunch a fascist enablers, and I'm doing my own fact checking. I welcome others to join me.

289 jvic  Thu, May 21, 2009 7:40:02am

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote

...My question is when did the average Republican become so stupid that they have left their party to the hands of whores, blowhards and morons? When did the average Republican stop being a Republican and when did they get so stupid that they missed the transition?

IMHO whores, blowhards, and morons would not have done so much damage in such a short time.

Your question left out the pimps and drug dealers.

290 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 7:51:47am
291 Øyvind Strømmen  Thu, May 21, 2009 8:18:12am

re: #290 Smorgasbord

One thing I would like to see changed is the qualifications to be declared a "religion" in the USA and be a tax exempt organization

So, you would like something like the State Committee for Approval of Religions to go over applications, and automatically refuse applications from adherents of one religion? Sounds a bit... Russian - no?

Anyway, I do not see why religious groups should be tax exempt. Not any of them.

The only advantage I see with the Norwegian equivalent (which is not tax exemption, but state support to religious groups) is that Muslim congregations get their money from Norwegian oil. And not from Saudi oil. Having read on the spread of socalled "petro-islam", I have to say that it sounds like a considerable advantage, though. Wahhabism isn't exactly the cuddliest religious movement around.

292 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:04:48am

re: #290 Smorgasbord

I am not going to allow LGF to be used to promote the stupid, destructive, un-American idea of banning Islam. So long.

293 Øyvind Strømmen  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:17:26am

re: #288 Sharmuta

My thoughts are that we've been had by a bunch a fascist enablers, and I'm doing my own fact checking. I welcome others to join me.

You're definitely on to something. Actually, the internet is partly to blame (note that I love the internet).

In Norwegian we have a saying: "En fjær blir til fem høns" - one feather becomes five chicken. I do not know the English language equivalent, but the saying tells about how a small rumour can grow. Many stories about Europe that I have read on American blogs are rumours grown, sometimes half-truths, sometis quarter-truths, sometimes outright lies.

To take an example :

In 2004, Norway "allegedly" banned Jews or people wearing Jewish symbols from taking part in the Kristallnacht commemmoration. This was repeated on a number of blogs and also in the NY Sun (if I remember correctly), in a bit different versions. Some Israeli news outlets also picked up the story, and several Norwegian media too gave a distorted report.

The true story was ugly, but not as ugly as it was made out to be, and it was much more complicated: the organisation arranging the most popular Kristallnacht commemmoration in Oslo did not want the event to be about the Middle East, and did not allow Israeli flags in it. One can agree or disagree with that decision, and it is worth noting that the organisation - SOS Rasisme - has been dominated or partly so by the very hard left - even by Norwegian standards - for years (in fact several leading members have been working with a small fringe group which finds the Marxist Communist party too moderate). However, other groups were of course free to arrange their own event.

Then, a small group turned up to the SOS Rasisme-arranged event in what was very obviously a provocation (as some of them came from decidedly racist groups). They brought Israeli flags, and the police - realising that some hard-left elements in the SOS Rasisme-parade (perhaps most notably people from Blitz, an anarchist grouping) might react violently, warned them and told them to stay away. Sadly, I have to say, that was the only wise choice for the police to make. And that's the ugly part of the story.

But, Jewish symbols were allowed in the parade, and Jews took part (anything else would have been truly outrageous).

It should also be noted the Jewish congregation in Oslo, Det Mosaiske Trossamfund, later came out in support of SOS Rasisme, while criticising both hard left and hard right elements for hijacking the event. Two members of the Jewish congregation were thrown out of the congregation for cooperating with a group which several of the other "counter-demonstrators" came from, namely a deeply reactionary anti-Islamic grouping, FOMI. One of the two had in fact not taken part in the "counter-demonstration". In a press release, the Jewish congregation noted that they deplored the ideology of this grouping. In an interview with Aftenposten - a leading daily - they noted that the fact that people that could be connected with "extreme right movements" had taken part in the counter-demonstration made it unacceptable to them.

The following year SOS Rasisme and the Jewish congregation in Oslo cooperated to hold a Kristallnacht commemmoration. As far as I know, they have been cooperating since. Of course, some hard left pro-Palestininan activists have criticised this; which - I believe - is a good sign.

294 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 4:09:48pm

re: #293 oslogin

That's a great example. And it's one big reason why I no longer trust these reports that go around the so-called 'anti-jihad' blogs about events in Europe. In too many cases, checking out the reports through other sources reveals that the bloggers have gotten it wrong, missed important context, or deliberately distorted facts.


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