Going Ape?

Science • Views: 3,496

Among the geeks at ScienceBlogs, there’s a lot of debate about the appropriateness of the splashy media campaign to promote the “Ida” fossil; the NYT Opinionator blog has a round-up of the comments (and a nod to LGF for our Rush Limbaugh post): Let’s Not Go Ape Over Ida.

I understand the consternation scientists feel when they see these kinds of public relations techniques being used; it may be the first time a media event like this has been staged to promote a scientific discovery. But as long as the science is good — and in this case, the team of researchers worked on the fossil for two years before going public, and did publish a paper in the journal PLoS One — I can’t get upset over the PR push.

After all, every time we post about evolution at LGF, professionally-done, context-driven Google advertisements promoting creationism appear in our sidebars — and not once have we seen similar ads promoting evolution.

The anti-evolution, anti-science crowd is spending lots of money and enlisting the services of media and graphic designers to promote their side. It’s past time for real scientists to get in the game — with the caveat that they don’t forget to do the real research to back up the media effort.

Jump to bottom

327 comments
1 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:03:51pm

My only complaint is that is should have been named "Ura".

/Ura Monkey, get it?
/har har har

2 Alaska Kim  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:05:24pm

re: #1 OldLineTexan

My only complaint is that is should have been named "Ura".


/Ura Monkey, get it?

/har har har


Or "I'ma"

heh

3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:05:33pm

Bagdad Bob becomes Genesis Gene?

4 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:06:00pm
The anti-evolution, anti-science crowd is spending lots of money and enlisting the services of media and graphic designers to promote their side. It’s past time for real scientists to get in the game — with the caveat that they don’t forget to do the real research to back up the media push.

That's a great point, Charles. I hadn't thought of that.

Bravo to the scientists for thinking forward, and promoting their amazing discovery and science in general.

5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:06:08pm

re: #1 OldLineTexan

I'm calling it "Uncle Fred".

6 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:06:47pm

re: #2 Alaska Kim

Ima Lil Monkey, Ura Lil Monkey

/s'all good

7 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:04pm

This is the stuff that gets kids interested in science too. Headlines about politics and the economy bore kids but they will get excited about science.

8 Beholden  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:12pm

If it was a missing link potato would we call it Ore-Ida?

9 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:13pm

re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm calling it "Uncle Fred".

Isn't that the guy that eats all the Cool Whip before dessert?

10 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:18pm

re: #6 OldLineTexan

Wouldn'tcha like to be a monkey too!?

11 Alaska Kim  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:19pm

re: #6 OldLineTexan

Ima Lil Monkey, Ura Lil Monkey

/s'all good

I reckin!

12 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:08:13pm

re: #1 OldLineTexan

My only complaint is that is should have been named "Ura".

/Ura Monkey, get it?
/har har har

Better yet, call it "Eve", and double their exhibit security for the nutcase backlash...

13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:08:38pm

re: #9 OldLineTexan

Nah. That's me. Freakin' love Cool Whip!

14 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:09:02pm

re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nah. That's me. Freakin' love Cool Whip!

It's real whipped cream or nothin' for me.

15 avanti  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:09:07pm

What's all the fuss ? If you read this link, it explains she was just a extinct primate created on the 6th day of Genesis. /s

Creationist nuts

16 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:09:54pm

The creationists have done a wonderful job of using their language to define the debate, rather than the scientists who have the facts and science on their side. It's little wonder that Rush and others who are defending him on this are caught in this mess. They want to pander to the religious right, but at the same time claim that they're not anti-Science.

There is a large percentage of Americans who doubt evolution. Overall, 49% believe in evolution, while 48% do not. A strong majority of self-declared GOPers didn't believe in evolution (60/30), but large numbers of Independents (61 believe /37 don't believe) and Democrats (57 believe /40 don't).

The problem for the GOP is that so many of their leaders are cheerleading the creationist/ID/YEC line, and Democrats are apparently doing a better job of hiding their intentions on the matter. The issue comes to a head on the matter of teaching evolution in schools, and it's always been my position that creationism should not be taught in science class because it is not science - it's religion/philosophy, and attempts to include it water down science class and undermine the nations' scientific literacy. And belief in evolution is clearly tied to education level as well.

17 IslandLibertarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:10:25pm

Get the "Sham-wow" guy:
"Evolution, it's backed up by science. How can you not want to buy this?"
(along with splash graphics of apes morphing into hot babes and studs......)

/let the scientists publish........no kitch there....

18 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:10:40pm

NatGeo has a program about Ida.

It's called "Link" as if it's the missing link.

That's going a little far in the PR, no?

I thought the missing link was a common ancestor without hair/fur?

19 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #2 Alaska Kim
Heya Kim!
Being from Alaska,I'm sure ya like Eagles Right?
Saw some youtube Vids lastnight ...AMAZING!
The Mongolians using Golden Eagles to take down Wolves!
Just look for Golden Eagles killing Wolves.
Also Goldens taking Mountian goats off the cliff!
Excellent footage!

20 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:11:48pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

This is the stuff that gets kids interested in science too. Headlines about politics and the economy bore kids but they will get excited about science.

Kids LOVE fossils.

21 wrenchwench  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:11:49pm
Like a good scientist, Johnson then offers his proof...

Yet another hat for the web designing, bicycle riding, guitar playing, political blogging giant lizard.

22 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:11:58pm
After all, every time we post about evolution at LGF, professionally-done, context-driven Google advertisements promoting creationism appear in our sidebars — and not once have we seen similar ads promoting evolution.

Charles, in the past you've mentioned that you're more than willing to take the advertising money from these people. Is the statement above a sign that you're re-thinking this, or more a desire to simply see more evolution-promoting ads?

23 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:00pm
The anti-evolution, anti-science crowd is spending lots of money and enlisting the services of media and graphic designers to promote their side. It’s past time for real scientists to get in the game — with the caveat that they don’t forget to do the real research to back up the media push.

I think the reason we dont see more of that is the scientists dont have a political and social agenda they wish to push forward as part of their research.

24 Alaska Kim  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:32pm

re: #19 reloadingisnotahobby

"Golden Eagles"?

We have Bald Eagles here. They'll snatch your pets if you aren't watching!

25 ladycatnip  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:42pm
After all, every time we post about evolution at LGF, professionally-done, context-driven Google advertisements promoting creationism appear in our sidebars — and not once have we seen similar ads promoting evolution.

The anti-evolution, anti-science crowd is spending lots of money and enlisting the services of media and graphic designers to promote their side. It’s past time for real scientists to get in the game — with the caveat that they don’t forget to do the real research to back up the media push.

Would this also be the reason we see muslima.com ads here - that islamists are pushing on sites that are not congenial to their religion? It seems strange and absurd to me that creationists and islamists would target this site, yet I'm sure pro-evolution/science or pro- Jewish/Christian ads wouldn't appear on their sites (which is only conjecture on my part since I don't frequent those sites).

26 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:47pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

Kids LOVE fossils.

Yeah, Grandpa used to buy us orange sherbet push-ups and Icees.

;)

27 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:00pm

re: #22 gmsc

Charles, in the past you've mentioned that you're more than willing to take the advertising money from these people. Is the statement above a sign that you're re-thinking this, or more a desire to simply see more evolution-promoting ads?

Seems to me to be more observational than anything, but I can't speak for Charles, nor would I have the right to do so.

28 Liberal Classic  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:15pm

I posted this in the previous thread before I saw this one.

The previous thread had a side discussion on animal hybridization. Here is an interesting website that documents many different kinds of hybrids, including big cats, with many good pictures and references:

[Link: [Link: www.messybeast.com...]...]

Part of the problem in understanding evolution comes because people love to categorize things. We're great "namers." The "tree of life" is a hierarchical structure showing discrete branches, and the classification system (genus and species) we use to build the tree attempts to classify beings into discrete groups. However, life isn't like this. Life is more like a continuous spectrum. Think of a rainbow. There is some inherent inaccuracy in trying to "digitize" (for lack of a better word) the variety of life forms we observe. It's like saying their are different "kinds" of light such as red, orange, green, blue, indigo.

(don't anyone dare tell me that light has discrete energy levels, I'm making an analogy)

29 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:41pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

Kids LOVE fossils.

And pieces of meteorites that are 6000 years old :)

30 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:54pm

re: #25 ladycatnip

On the bright side, Google's advertising software hasn't yet learned to read the minds of the page viewers.

31 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:02pm

re: #27 MrSilverDragon

Seems to me to be more observational than anything, but I can't speak for Charles, nor would I have the right to do so.

Good point.

32 Idle Drifter  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:02pm

re: #19 reloadingisnotahobby

The videos have been posted here in the past.

33 wrenchwench  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:27pm

re: #18 Ben Hur

NatGeo has a program about Ida.

It's called "Link" as if it's the missing link.

That's going a little far in the PR, no?

I thought the missing link was a common ancestor without hair/fur?

From the link at the top:

At Evolving Thoughts, John Wilkins concurs:
Again, the press are talking about “the missing link”. Let’s get one thing clear. There is no missing link. Rather, there are an indefinite number of missing branches. To have a missing link, you need to visualise evolution as a chain. If there’s a gap in the chain, then you have a missing link. But evolution, at least at the scale of animals and plants, is mostly a tree. And all we see are individual nodes of the tree, the extant species that form, in Darwin’s metaphor, the leaves of the living tree, and the extinct species that form branching points deeper in the tree....
34 Liberal Classic  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:43pm

re: #28 Liberal Classic

Sorry, I messed up my link.

Here is the correct one:

[Link: www.messybeast.com...]

35 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:43pm

re: #24 Alaska Kim

"Golden Eagles"?

We have Bald Eagles here. They'll snatch your pets if you aren't watching!

Got to watch your beers to.

36 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:45pm

re: #18 Ben Hur

NatGeo has a program about Ida.

It's called "Link" as if it's the missing link.

That's going a little far in the PR, no?

I thought the missing link was a common ancestor without hair/fur?

The concept is a "missing link" is outdated. There were many steps along the evolutionary path toward modern humans. Our oldest ancestors, like Ida, had fur or hair all over, but had many of the attributes we see in later fossils. Two forward-facing eyes, nails instead of claws, flatter face, monkey/ape/human type dentation, opposible thumbs, and a large brain to body weight ratio.

37 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:06pm

re: #33 wrenchwench

Thanks.

I saw that AFTER I posted.

Lesson learned.

Again.

38 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:37pm

re: #36 Honorary Yooper

The concept is a "missing link" is outdated. There were many steps along the evolutionary path toward modern humans. Our oldest ancestors, like Ida, had fur or hair all over, but had many of the attributes we see in later fossils. Two forward-facing eyes, nails instead of claws, flatter face, monkey/ape/human type dentation, opposible thumbs, and a large brain to body weight ratio.

Some humans still do.

LOL!

39 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:57pm

re: #24 Alaska Kim

re: #24 Alaska Kim
Right!
But a FREAKING full grown Wolf?
They also teamed up on the fystier ones!

40 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:58pm

Just to get this in before the inevitable meltdowns:

41 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:04pm

re: #28 Liberal Classic

Part of the problem in understanding evolution comes because people love to categorize things. We're great "namers." The "tree of life" is a hierarchical structure showing discrete branches, and the classification system (genus and species) we use to build the tree attempts to classify beings into discrete groups. However, life isn't like this. Life is more like a continuous spectrum. Think of a rainbow. There is some inherent inaccuracy in trying to "digitize" (for lack of a better word) the variety of life forms we observe. It's like saying their are different "kinds" of light such as red, orange, green, blue, indigo.


I thought we named the tree of life Yggdrasil?

42 vxbush  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:32pm

I was wondering about the scholarly publication, but haven't had time to go research it. Thanks for finding it.

The PR glitz is a bit annoying for scientists interested in "pure" research (as if science occurs in a vacuum), but as long as the scholarly work is there to back it up, the PR stuff helps to educate and provide information for the masses.

My only concern is that I really wish the fossil could have been found in situ. Archeological remains suffer years of argument over legitimacy because the provenance isn't confirmed. While this fossil is well documented regarding its authenticity and is 95% confirmed as authentic, I would love to have made that 100% so no one could complain, ever.

43 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:50pm

Slightly related:

I discovered that my co-worker from Malawi, while Catholic, didn't accept evolution because of the old "Denying God" canard. After speaking with him for it a little while, it became clear he didn't have much of a grasp on the basics so I turned to LGF where I looked up this video. He watched it and said it was very helpful. I've also given him a list of books and other items to look up online. He said he was also going to speak to his priest.

I'm glad he was reasonable enough to be reasoned with, and I'm very glad I had LGF as a resource to start the ball rolling. Hopefully, we'll soon add another evolution accepter to the ranks.

44 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:55pm

Strongly agree. We need to go back to the days when science was popular with the public, we got a heck of a lot more done then. Einstein used to have groupies...

45 Alaska Kim  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:58pm

re: #39 reloadingisnotahobby

re: #24 Alaska Kim
Right!
But a FREAKING full grown Wolf?
They also teamed up on the fystier ones!

Boy, I don't know about that! Full grown wolves weigh well over a hundred pounds. Are you sure it was real?

46 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:18:19pm

re: #44 Thanos

Strongly agree. We need to go back to the days when science was popular with the public, we got a heck of a lot more done then. Einstein used to have groupies...

An Apollo-type program would go a long way to making science cool again.

47 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:18:39pm

re: #15 avanti

What's all the fuss ? If you read this link, it explains she was just a extinct primate created on the 6th day of Genesis. /s

Creationist nuts

Nah. It was the Beta prototype. God's focus group came back and said, "lose the tail" and "give it more frontal lobe development"--though there was never any consensus on the fur color./

48 Idle Drifter  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:12pm

re: #36 Honorary Yooper

The concept is a "missing link" is outdated. There were many steps along the evolutionary path toward modern humans. Our oldest ancestors, like Ida, had fur or hair all over, but had many of the attributes we see in later fossils. Two forward-facing eyes, nails instead of claws, flatter face, monkey/ape/human type dentation, opposible thumbs, and a large brain to body weight ratio.

I wonder about the evolutionary split where as humans can learn to swim in deep water and most if not all other ape species simply drown.

49 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:17pm

re: #45 Alaska Kim
No doubt!

50 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:36pm

re: #46 Honorary Yooper

An Apollo-type program would go a long way to making science cool again.

We need Mr. Wizard back.

51 ladycatnip  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:19:46pm

#30 jaunte

On the bright side, Google's advertising software hasn't yet learned to read the minds of the page viewers.

I was thinking more in line with a targeted audience, usually decided by both the advertiser and the host for the advertising. But maybe in blogdom advertising is different.

52 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:20:15pm

re: #46 Honorary Yooper

An Apollo-type program would go a long way to making science cool again.

Say, like a cold-fusion program, or some other far-out plan to wean us all off the oil teat?

53 Neutral President  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:20:24pm

re: #18 Ben Hur

I think the "Missing Link" commonly spoken about in such a non scientific term is the connection between genus Homo and genus Australopithecus. I don't believe scientists can point to a specific later Australopithecine and say for certain, "that species is a direct ancestor of Homo sapiens."

Ida seems to be more of a link between Apes and Monkeys since its 47 million years old.

54 vxbush  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:20:30pm

re: #42 vxbush

I was wondering about the scholarly publication, but haven't had time to go research it. Thanks for finding it.

The PR glitz is a bit annoying for scientists interested in "pure" research (as if science occurs in a vacuum), but as long as the scholarly work is there to back it up, the PR stuff helps to educate and provide information for the masses.

My only concern is that I really wish the fossil could have been found in situ. Archeological remains can suffer years of argument over legitimacy because items discovered on the antiquities market cannot confirm the provenance isn't confirmed. While this fossil is well documented regarding its authenticity and is 95% confirmed as authentic, I would love to have made that 100% so no one could complain, ever.

PIMF, PIMF.

55 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:21:00pm

Charles, has someone already told you that you repeated "as long" in paragraph 2? If not, it might be a good idea to edit it.

56 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:21:20pm

re: #48 Idle Drifter

I wonder about the evolutionary split where as humans can learn to swim in deep water and most if not all other ape species simply drown.


I recall a program I once saw on TV about a scientist who believed that humans shed their hair/fur when they settled on the coast.

The sudden and large intake of protein from fish is what made humans develop and separate from apes.

There was something as well speaking about how we lost our hair so we could swim better.

Sounded reasonable at the time.

57 zeir  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:21:29pm

Um, Iranian missile launch, anyone? I see trouble...

58 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:22:28pm

re: #53 ArchangelMichael


Australians?

59 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:22:31pm

re: #57 zeir

Did the Iranians launch? Could you tell me where to look for the link?

60 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:22:46pm

re: #54 vxbush

PIMF, PIMF.

I made that point yesterday. The provenance of this item will be used as a sticking point at some time. I've seen it happen many times with artifacts that made it into scientist hands through from collectors.

Many scientist won't even study an object like this because it wasn't discovered in situ by them.

61 zeir  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:06pm

Front page NY Times...

62 wrenchwench  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:15pm

re: #54 vxbush

re: #55 Dianna

Man, I'm not catching any typos today. I need more tea...

63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

"Beakman's World" was really cool. Phil Nye the Science Guy rocks also.

64 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #57 zeir

Um, Iranian missile launch, anyone? I see trouble...

Nothing to worry about. Once Israel comes around to accepting the 2 state solution, I'm sure the situation will sort itself out and everything will be right as rain.

/Obama mode off

65 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:32pm

So, did Charles fix that before I mentioned it?

66 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:38pm

re: #56 Ben Hur

...humans shed their hair/fur when they settled on the coast.. we lost our hair so we could swim better.

You mean there were prehistoric waxing boutiques on the coast? Ocean-front dwellers were snooty even then?

67 Abu Lahab  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:38pm

I found this discovery fascinating, and I was glad today to see Google having a special cool logo for this event, this will make it more known. I think Google was really cool on this one.

68 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:39pm

re: #22 gmsc

Charles, in the past you've mentioned that you're more than willing to take the advertising money from these people. Is the statement above a sign that you're re-thinking this, or more a desire to simply see more evolution-promoting ads?

They're Google ads, IIRC.

69 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:24:27pm

re: #62 wrenchwench

re: #55 Dianna

Man, I'm not catching any typos today. I need more tea...

I'm going to wonder off and raise my blood sugar, so I can catch 'em in my own work. I had to redo a number of letters because I kept transposing letters. Very embarrassing!

70 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:24:39pm

re: #55 Dianna

Charles, has someone already told you that you repeated "as long" in paragraph 2? If not, it might be a good idea to edit it.

Errors like that can be hard to catch, especially if Charles' editing program (or window or screen) put the line break right where "as long" occurs.

It reminds me of this old challenge – what does the sentence inside the triangle say? Are you sure? Try pointing to each word as you say it.

71 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

I loved fossils, archeology, spaceflight, etc. Pretty much all kids do.

72 Abu Lahab  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:04pm

re: #59 Dianna

There you go

73 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:23pm

re: #59 Dianna

Did the Iranians launch? Could you tell me where to look for the link?

Here.

The U.S. responded by saying Iran must choose between destabilizing the Middle East or accepting the dialogue offered by President Barack Obama.

So whats the plan when Iran chooses the destabilizing route?

74 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:37pm

re: #69 Dianna

"I'm going to wonder off ..."

Indeed.

/teasing ... :D

75 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:43pm

re: #52 calcajun

Say, like a cold-fusion program, or some other far-out plan to wean us all off the oil teat?

That would be cool (pun intended or not, you decide) as well, but I was thinking another major mission to the Moon and then on to Mars would be more visible. People don't realize how much the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs did for making science visible to the general public.

76 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:49pm

I think Ida is amazing, and the DI can seethe away.

77 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:26:09pm

I got bit by a monkey when I was a kid. Don't like monkeys.

78 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:26:19pm

re: #70 gmsc

Errors like that can be hard to catch, especially if Charles' editing program (or window or screen) put the line break right where "as long" occurs.

It reminds me of this old challenge – what does the sentence inside the triangle say? Are you sure? Try pointing to each word as you say it.

Either I'm developing some weirdness, or that's easier to spot than it should be!

79 Neutral President  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:26:45pm

re: #58 Ben Hur

Australians?

Well I think some of them have protruding super-orbital ridges, small craniums, and 1300 cc brains but I don't think that makes them a missing link.

//

80 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:27:02pm

re: #74 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Indeed.

/teasing ... :D

Did I really? Ouch!

Time to raise my blood sugar! For real, this time!

81 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:27:15pm

re: #75 Honorary Yooper

I know they did--I remember my Apollo 11 model from Revell. But, what's up there that we need, other than to find a way to terraform the Moon?

82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:27:20pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

I loved fossils, archeology, spaceflight, etc. Pretty much all kids do.

So did I. Then I learned that science is really, really, really, really hard. You have to be really, really, really, really smart to understand it. You have to study really, really, really, really hard to advance in it.

I like skimming the surface of it and saying, "Whoa! That shit is cool!"

83 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:27:47pm

re: #65 Dianna

So, did Charles fix that before I mentioned it?

Fix what fix what?

84 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:27:53pm

re: #50 Walter L. Newton

We need Mr. Wizard back.

re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Beakman's World" was really cool. Phil Nye the Science Guy rocks also.

If you want to find all of them online, I have links to them here.

Trivia: Mr. Wizard's real name was Don Herbert. If you watch Beakman's world, you'll note there are two penguins who occasionally comment on the show and the experiments. These penguins are named Don and Herb, after Mr. Wizard!

85 Ben Hur  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:27:59pm

re: #79 ArchangelMichael

Well I think some of them have protruding super-orbital ridges, small craniums, and 1300 cc brains but I don't think that makes them a missing link.

//

lol!

86 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:11pm

"Bananas!"

-Chris Elliott, as Marlon Brando

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:18pm

re: #80 Dianna

Did I really? Ouch!

Time to raise my blood sugar! For real, this time!

Then here's some sugar for you!
{Dianna!}

88 Idle Drifter  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:22pm

re: #56 Ben Hur

I recall a program I once saw on TV about a scientist who believed that humans shed their hair/fur when they settled on the coast.

The sudden and large intake of protein from fish is what made humans develop and separate from apes.

There was something as well speaking about how we lost our hair so we could swim better.

Sounded reasonable at the time.

Monkeys and Humans can swim but great apes sink. I wonder if it has something to do with bone and muscle density as part of the equation of body dimensions.

Here's a short video of monkey enjoying a swim.

89 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:24pm

re: #77 unrealizedviewpoint

I got bit by a monkey when I was a kid. Don't like monkeys.

If I followed that reasoning, I'd hate "sisters"!

90 Abu Lahab  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:26pm

By the way, does everyone see the "Ida" Google logo when you access it? There are usually differences.

91 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:39pm

re: #83 Charles

Fix what fix what?

*Snicker*

Oh, right. Lunch!

92 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:04pm

re: #78 Dianna

Either I'm developing some weirdness, or that's easier to spot than it should be!

Could be both.

(Far be it for me to suggest that someone whose avatar is a squirrel in a fedora is displaying any weirdness.)
;)

93 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:05pm

re: #81 calcajun

I know they did--I remember my Apollo 11 model from Revell. But, what's up there that we need, other than to find a way to terraform the Moon?

Why have a space station when we have the Moon? Launch from the Earth, land on the Moon, collect the material needed and go onward and outward.

94 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:18pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

I loved fossils, archeology, spaceflight, etc. Pretty much all kids do.

It's true. It's not hard to get kids hooked on science as they have inquisitive minds and natural curiosity about how things work and where they came from. It's just sad so many are robbed of this aspect of knowledge because of their families abhorrence.

95 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:19pm

re: #79 ArchangelMichael

Well I think some of them have protruding super-orbital ridges, small craniums, and 1300 cc brains but I don't think that makes them a missing link.

//

Can they scratch their knees without bending over?//

96 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:24pm
97 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:30pm

re: #81 calcajun

I know they did--I remember my Apollo 11 model from Revell. But, what's up there that we need, other than to find a way to terraform the Moon?

There is a simple chemical compound several meters under the lunar surface which would make a cheap and affordable superconductor.

Well, there very well could be, but we'll never know until we go and look.

98 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:35pm

re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I like robots.

99 aggieann  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:53pm

re: #70 gmsc

Errors like that can be hard to catch, especially if Charles' editing program (or window or screen) put the line break right where "as long" occurs.

It reminds me of this old challenge – what does the sentence inside the triangle say? Are you sure? Try pointing to each word as you say it.

My master's degree diploma has a similar error!

100 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:30:26pm

re: #44 Thanos

Strongly agree. We need to go back to the days when science was popular with the public, we got a heck of a lot more done then. Einstein used to have groupies...

Great observation.

I would add that the science community is somewhat at fault here for putting great distance between themselves and believers, as if somehow that were a necessary behavior and philosophical imperative.

Recall that Einstein referred to God as the 'Supreme Architect' and noted that 'God doesn't play dice with the universe'- and no may many took him to task for that.

101 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:18pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

I liked learning the words "flaccid" and "turgidity" and using them.

102 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:26pm

Speaking of robots...
Robotic therapy holds promise for cerebral palsy

Science!

103 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:33pm

re: #59 Dianna

Iran claims long range missile test was a success, but a successful launch doesn't necessarily translate into a missile that went where it was supposed to (no word on the CEP). Still, with Iran having had problems launching missiles in the past, it's worth watching.

Iran has no interest in peace with Israel or anyone else, and the rest of the region is concerned about Iran's nuclear intentions since Iran wants to dominate the region, not just simply wipe Israel from the map. It's the age old fight between Sunni and Shia, and Iran wants to win that war.

At the same time, Sec. State. Clinton is concerned that a new arms race might develop. It's not one caused by Israel mind you, but by those Sunni majority nations concerned that Iran is going to go nuclear and no one wants to do anything about it except Israel, who has a bullseye on their back. Instead, the region is content to let Israel get beat up for contemplating actions that will save the region from Iranian mullah Mahdi dreams. They'll let Israel play point, because they see that the US isn't going to stand up to Iran. Obama is pushing the jaw-jaw, all while Iran spins the centrifuges to gather more enriched uranium that in enough time is sufficient for nuclear weapons.

104 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:36pm

re: #68 pre-Boomer Marine brat

They're Google ads, IIRC.

Yes, but with Google ads, you can specify advertisers you don't want on your site. Some sites use this to remove ads from competing companies, others use it to remove ads that promote philosophies counter to the ones held by the site, and so on.

105 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:47pm

re: #93 Honorary Yooper

I'd love to see it too, but out where? We can't get anywhere in the Solar System quickly--it would take months--at the very least--to get to Mars; years to go anywhere further.

If we focus on the energy situation here, we'll come up with more efficient engines for interplanetary flight. I do not see where we'll ever get FTL based on present technology.

106 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:53pm

And I've always had a thing for stars.

107 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:32:12pm

Here's a little tidbit on taxonomy for fans of science and words:

Narrowing Things Down

Taxonomically, gang,
Start out with the Primal Bang.
With a might puff disperse
This into a Universe
Sifting through phenomena,
Pick a likely Nebula,
And from its diversity
A convenient Galaxy.
From that swirling, milky ruck
A fine Solar System pluck.
Planets nine its sun begird;
Counting outward, take the third.
Land on it; when you arrive
Scoop up everything alive.
These in Kingdoms sort, and pile 'em
Each into its proper Phylum.
Thence Subphylums pray amass,
And from this, a Superclass,
Which in smaller Classes break,
And, from one, Subclasses take.
Into Cohorts then divide,
Wherein Superorders hide.
One of these its Orders yields;
Separate them into fields
Called Suborders, all of which
Are in Infraorders rich.
Infraorders keep in store
Superfamilies galore,
Families split off from these;
Thence emerge Subfamilies,
All with Tribes to them belonging,
These with Subtribes from them thronging.
Subtribes Genuses deliver:
In each Genus, Species quiver.
And the taxonomic end
Is Subspecies -- YOU, my friend.

Willard R. Espy

108 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:32:12pm

re: #99 aggieann

My master's degree diploma has a similar error!

You have a master's
master's degree?

109 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:32:17pm

OT - I'm out of here in a bit.

We have a rental at the theatre tonight. A music school, a THREE HOUR drum recital... I'll say it again, THREE HOURS of drum students working on their Gene Krupa personas... I think it's good for young men and woman to learn an instrument... It's better than sitting at home playing a video game IMHO... but THREE HOURS of drum students... Oh well.

110 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:32:49pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

I liked learning the words "flaccid" and "turgidity" and using them.

LANGUAGE!

111 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:33:50pm

I got your robots right here, Killgore

112 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:34:13pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

OT - I'm out of here in a bit.

We have a rental at the theatre tonight. A music school, a THREE HOUR drum recital... I'll say it again, THREE HOURS of drum students working on their Gene Krupa personas... I think it's good for young men and woman to learn an instrument... It's better than sitting at home playing a video game IMHO... but THREE HOURS of drum students... Oh well.

How did they manage to snare that?//

///

113 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:34:20pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

LANGUAGE!

It's biology language.

114 aggieann  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:35:52pm

re: #108 gmsc

You have a master's
master's degree?

It says that it was awarded "on the this 14th Day of December, 1988."

115 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:36:48pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

It's biology language.

I'm sure it is.

Pervert.

/

116 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:37:05pm

re: #112 calcajun

How did they manage to snare that?//

///

It's a cymbal of our troubled times.

117 Neutral President  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:38:15pm

re: #105 calcajun

I'd love to see it too, but out where? We can't get anywhere in the Solar System quickly--it would take months--at the very least--to get to Mars; years to go anywhere further.

If we focus on the energy situation here, we'll come up with more efficient engines for interplanetary flight. I do not see where we'll ever get FTL based on present technology.

Given current bleeding edge theories, unless we find out for sure that dark energy and exotic matter exist, and are things that can be used and manipulated by technology, then FTL will probably never happen. (Via artificial wormholes or alcubierre-metric style warp drives.)

If that's the case, interstellar travel and colonization will be Firefly/Serenity-like one way trips unless we can increase the human lifespan to thousands of years and avoid the bad baggage that could come with that.

118 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:38:48pm

re: #116 gmsc

It's a cymbal of our troubled times.

Are we drumming up another pun thread already?

119 Walter L. Newton  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:38:50pm

re: #111 Sharmuta

I got your robots right here, Killgore


[Video]

I have a robot in the apartment here. It has a number of programmed modes, one is aggressive. It will walk around the room, measuring out the items in the room, learning from it's surroundings.

When it gets to Maisey the Parrot's cage, it will look around the cage with it's infra-red eyes. When Maisey sees it, she will start squawking at it, which in turn, triggers the aggressive behavior, and the robot will start beeping back at Maisey, trying to scare Maisey, which in turn, makes Maisey spread her feathers, and squawk louder and so on until I turn the robot off (well, it's hard to shut the parrot off).

Very funny stuff.

120 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:10pm

re: #104 gmsc

Yes, but with Google ads, you can specify advertisers you don't want on your site. Some sites use this to remove ads from competing companies, others use it to remove ads that promote philosophies counter to the ones held by the site, and so on.

Didn't know that.

121 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:19pm

re: #115 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm sure it is.

Pervert.

/

Well- I am sharmuta.

122 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:19pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

Yeah? Well, just wait until you're old, and they steal your medicine. Let's see how much you like them then.

123 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:34pm

I hate every monkey that I see
From chimpanzan A to chimpanzee
But you'll never make a monkey out of me

-Troy McClure

124 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #111 Sharmuta

Loves it.

125 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:40:25pm

re: #117 ArchangelMichael

Given current bleeding edge theories, unless we find out for sure that dark energy and exotic matter exist, and are things that can be used and manipulated by technology, then FTL will probably never happen. (Via artificial wormholes or alcubierre-metric style warp drives.)

If that's the case, interstellar travel and colonization will be Firefly/Serenity-like one way trips unless we can increase the human lifespan to thousands of years and avoid the bad baggage that could come with that.

Speed limits were meant to be broken!

126 Buck  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:40:39pm

#0 Charles

not once have we seen similar ads promoting evolution.

IMO, there is no money in pushing evolution.

127 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:40:51pm

re: #123 Mad Al-Jaffee

I hate every monkey that I see
From chimpanzan A to chimpanzee
But you'll never make a monkey out of me

-Troy McClure

And now, I give you the Planet of the Apes musical – "Stop the Planet of the Apes, I Want To Get Off!":

128 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:41:15pm

Hear that roar? That's every American male over 40 cheering....
Chemical test offers quick prostrate cancer check


A small study showed how the test within three minutes produced a fingerprint of a chemical called citrate that falls markedly in the prostate gland as cancer develops, David Parker of Durham University in Britain said in a telephone interview. Prostate cancer is the second most common cancer in men worldwide, after lung cancer. It kills 254,000 men a year globally.


Hooray!

129 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:41:22pm

re: #106 Sharmuta

And I've always had a thing for stars.

And flaccid turgidity.

/whatta thread that'd make!

130 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:41:47pm

re: #83 Charles

Fix what fix what?

Is there an echo in here?

131 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:42:19pm

re: #130 CyanSnowHawk

Is there an echo in here?

Of course there is. We're an echo chamber. ////

132 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:43:26pm

re: #130 CyanSnowHawk

Is there an echo in here?

133 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:43:28pm

re: #131 Sharmuta

echo chamber. ////
echo chamber. ////
echo chamber. ////

134 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:44:01pm

re: #130 CyanSnowHawk

Is there an echo in here?

Hear Hear

135 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:44:01pm

re: #107 jaunte

That's really cool, but they seem to have added a lot of levels since I took biology in 19[mutter mutter]. When my daughter took high school biology a few years ago, I was amazed to discover that Fungi had gotten their own kingdom, and Monera was gone. I need to keep up.

136 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:44:31pm

re: #131 Sharmuta

Of course there is. We're an echo chamber. ////

Heh. Just ask Kos, DU, the Stalkers, etc.

137 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:44:40pm

re: #120 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Didn't know that.

Sometimes it's too bad you can do that. Can you imagine "Vote for John McCain" ads plastered all over Daily Kos? Heh, heh.

138 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:44:48pm

re: #130 CyanSnowHawk

No batting... Manny Mota.... /

139 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:44:50pm

re: #131 Sharmuta

Of course there is. We're an echo chamber. ////

I did not know lemmings made an echo?

Oh, that's a duck that makes no echo. Right.//

140 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:02pm

re: #117 ArchangelMichael

Given current bleeding edge theories, unless we find out for sure that dark energy and exotic matter exist, and are things that can be used and manipulated by technology, then FTL will probably never happen. (Via artificial wormholes or alcubierre-metric style warp drives.)

If that's the case, interstellar travel and colonization will be Firefly/Serenity-like one way trips unless we can increase the human lifespan to thousands of years and avoid the bad baggage that could come with that.

Would travel to Mars take months? I was under the impression that the rover and other satellites got an initial propulsion push but coasted at a semi-constant speed most of the way. If there was a technology to provide continuous thrust for longer periods wouldn't a craft continously accelarate and shorten the trip length enormously? [I'm into computer science, not this stuff]

141 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:07pm

I have often wondered why advertising is not more effectively used. It seems mostly to promote the irrelevant or slightly harmful.

But I once saw a sign in Ireland, in a railway station, a regular advertising sign it was, saying simply "Have faith in God." Just that, four words no more, and not mentioning any particular religion at all.

It was beautiful, I remember it nearly 40 years later.

142 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:12pm

re: #93 Honorary Yooper

Why have a space station when we have the Moon? Launch from the Earth, land on the Moon, collect the material needed and go onward and outward.

The Moon is a thousand times farther away than the orbit of the ISS. Lift costs go up accordingly.

143 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:15pm

re: #133 calcajun

echo chamber. ////
echo chamber. ////
echo chamber. ////

ECHO . . . echo . . . echo . . . echo . . .

144 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:41pm

The New Fox news meets the old Fox news.....
Jesse Ventura Interview With Hannity On FOX May.18, 2009

145 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:57pm

re: #111 Sharmuta

Domo arigato!

146 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:06pm

re: #135 doppelganglander

... 19[mutter mutter] ...

LOL!

147 Dave the.....  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:10pm

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would like someone to do a Nexus search for this term:

"Scientists find missing link in evolution chain". Or something to that affect. I think you'll find that headline recycled about every 6-12 months.

148 Alex F  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:25pm

This place is getting scary, with the way you treat anyone who disagrees with you or Charles. What happened to the LGF I loved of years past? This place isn't it.

149 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:47:09pm

Keep watching, #148 is going down...

150 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:47:15pm

re: #147 Dave the.....

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would like someone to do a Nexus search for this term:

"Scientists find missing link in evolution chain". Or something to that affect. I think you'll find that headline recycled about every 6-12 months.

AFFECT/EFFECT

151 wrenchwench  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:47:17pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

Hear that roar? That's every American male over 40 cheering....
Chemical test offers quick prostrate cancer check


Hooray!

OK, I caught that typo. Only in the headline, where it will be noticed....

152 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:47:25pm

re: #148 Alex F

Seems the same or better to me.

153 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:48:39pm

re: #149 doppelganglander

Keep watching, #148 is going down...

Not before I got in a mouse-click.

154 Dave the.....  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:48:50pm

gmsc, I am grammatically/spelling impaired. I believe I am covered under the ADA act, so you have to accommodate me. I'm the victim here. I feel a lot like Rosa Parks.

155 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:49:08pm

re: #140 CommonCents

Depends on the launch window. The real problem is making a craft strong enough to get there. A micro-meteor storm would shred an Apollo-like craft. There also has to be some form of artificial gravity to keep the astronauts muscles from atrophying for the months-long trip. It would not be easy at all.

156 Abu Lahab  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:49:41pm

re: #148 Alex F

That sounded like:
"This is not the LGF I know"
///////

157 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:49:47pm

re: #148 Alex F

This place is getting scary, with the way you treat anyone who disagrees with you or Charles. What happened to the LGF I loved of years past? This place isn't it.

It has evolved.

158 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:50:32pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

Hear that roar? That's every American male over 40 cheering....
Chemical test offers quick prostrate cancer check


Hooray!

You wouldn't think the English would be prone to such errors.

I like the news, however!

159 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:50:43pm

re: #148 Alex F

There's a difference between disagreement and downright attacks. I tend to see a lot more of the former than the latter.

160 Dave the.....  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:50:52pm

Alex F, actually I have stayed away a bit more lately as I have noticed that also.

161 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:51:05pm

LGF the clean well lighted blog.

Apologies to E.H.


BBL

162 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:51:25pm

re: #151 wrenchwench

Good catch. Even after you pointed it out I had to stare at it for 10 seconds to notice.

163 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:51:34pm

re: #140 CommonCents

Would travel to Mars take months? I was under the impression that the rover and other satellites got an initial propulsion push but coasted at a semi-constant speed most of the way. If there was a technology to provide continuous thrust for longer periods wouldn't a craft continously accelarate and shorten the trip length enormously? [I'm into computer science, not this stuff]

Part of the problem is, our present acceleration technologies are puny.

164 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:04pm

re: #148 Alex F

This place is getting scary, with the way you treat anyone who disagrees with you or Charles. What happened to the LGF I loved of years past? This place isn't it.

re: #148 Alex F

This place is getting scary, with the way you treat anyone who disagrees with you or Charles. What happened to the LGF I loved of years past? This place isn't it.

maybe you took a wrong turn somewhere and aren't where you thought you were!

OR

maybe not!

582 comments in almost 5 years

pacing yourself!?!?!?

165 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:10pm

White Blood Cell Chases Bacteria - Video

I assume the round thingies are red blood cells.

166 Lincolntf  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:51pm

I know it's OT, but I've been offline for a while. I posted something on the other thread before I realized that it had kind of lapsed.
Three cheers for the Senate ignoring Obama and his Daily Kos acolytes and deciding to preserve our national security over their own hyperbolic election season claims.
The fact that Obama's drones will still love him, no matter what he does, serves as further proof that the "Bush hatred" was more about Leftists needing someone to hate than it was about any particular policy.

167 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:56pm

re: #148 Alex F

This place is getting scary, with the way you treat anyone who disagrees with you or Charles. What happened to the LGF I loved of years past? This place isn't it.

Disagree or be disagreeable?

The first is permitted, the second you're already working on.

And I note you have been around for quite awhile.... Might want to brush up on recent history.

168 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:17pm

re: #148 Alex F

This place is getting scary, with the way you treat anyone who disagrees with you or Charles. What happened to the LGF I loved of years past? This place isn't it.

This place is still anti-idiotarian; it just apparently got around to critically inspecting one of your pet idiotarianisms. And you're miffed, but lack the empirical grounds to defend it. So you bitch about the messenger.

169 Idle Drifter  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:23pm

re: #165 Killgore Trout

White Blood Cell Chases Bacteria - Video

I assume the round thingies are red blood cells.

Cool video!

170 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:49pm

I always enjoyed watching The Missing Link wrestle in the 80s.

[Link: www.onlineworldofwrestling.com...]

171 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:53pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

Good catch. Even after you pointed it out I had to stare at it for 10 seconds to notice.

heh

You prostated yourself before the altar of science.

/but note that I was the first up-dinger of that post

172 Alex F  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:54pm

re: #164 sattv4u2

What does it matter how many comments I've made. I am no newbie to these forums. It is rather weak response to point out the comment history of those you disagree with, another thing I have seen a lot more of lately.

173 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:54:11pm

re: #141 Ojoe

I have often wondered why advertising is not more effectively used. It seems mostly to promote the irrelevant or slightly harmful.

But I once saw a sign in Ireland, in a railway station, a regular advertising sign it was, saying simply "Have faith in God." Just that, four words no more, and not mentioning any particular religion at all.

It was beautiful, I remember it nearly 40 years later.

Not to take away from your touching story, but sometimes simple advertising fails.

174 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:54:47pm

re: #168 Salamantis

This place is still anti-idiotarian; it just apparently got around to critically inspecting one of your pet idiotarianisms. And you're miffed, but lack the empirical grounds to defend it. So you bitch about the messenger.

I once bitched about the massager,,,,

NO HAPPY ENDING FOR YOU !

(channeling the soup Nazi)

175 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:54:54pm

re: #163 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Part of the problem is, our present acceleration technologies are puny.

What you don't like my launch system?

176 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:55:00pm

re: #172 Alex F

Are you speaking of something specific?

177 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:55:08pm

re: #163 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Part of the problem is, our present acceleration technologies are puny.

If given the task Kelly Johnson (Skunkworks) could figure it out.

178 Neutral President  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:55:31pm

re: #140 CommonCents

Would travel to Mars take months? I was under the impression that the rover and other satellites got an initial propulsion push but coasted at a semi-constant speed most of the way. If there was a technology to provide continuous thrust for longer periods wouldn't a craft continously accelarate and shorten the trip length enormously? [I'm into computer science, not this stuff]

Depending on where Mars and Earth are relative to each other in their orbits, a trip to Mars with Apollo or Orion type spacecraft + support structures would take like 3 months to a year to pull off. The ship basically gets put in an elliptical solar orbit that crosses Mars orbit at the appropriate time. It can be done with current technology but there's little margin for error and I don't know if the public will put up with a crew of frozen skeletons flying off into the void if something goes wrong. So if and when we do it, we cannot half-ass it.

Using something like nuclear pulse propulsion, a trip to Mars would probably only take a few days or weeks. That is almost in the realm of possibility for current tech but it requires people to get over their kneejerk phobia of anything with the word nuclear in it.

Such a craft could probably realistically never make it over 0.10 - 0.20c though so a trip to the nearest G or K type star system with planets would take about 50-100 years.

179 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:56:53pm

re: #173 CyanSnowHawk

Not to take away from your touching story, but sometimes simple advertising fails.

I have a Prius (of course) in my neighborhood, right below the Coexist sticker....

MEAN PEOPLE SUCK.

180 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:57:25pm

re: #172 Alex F

What does it matter how many comments I've made. I am no newbie to these forums. It is rather weak response to point out the comment history of those you disagree with, another thing I have seen a lot more of lately.

It tends to reveal/expose sleepers, mobys and trolls, and is also an indication of an increased likelihood of a sock for a previously banned poster.

181 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:57:39pm

re: #178 ArchangelMichael

Such a craft could probably realistically never make it over 0.10 - 0.20c though so a trip to the nearest G or K type star system with planets would take about 50-100 years.

Put me out there with a Swedish bikini team and our kids might make it.
/

182 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:08pm

re: #179 jcm

I have a Prius (of course) in my neighborhood, right below the Coexist sticker....

MEAN PEOPLE SUCK.

Talk about fitting a stereotype...

183 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:31pm

re: #175 jcm

Had to favorite that, to watch it later.
Have an Adobe Flash deficit at the moment.

184 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:38pm

re: #179 jcm

I have a Prius (of course) in my neighborhood, right below the Coexist sticker....

MEAN PEOPLE SUCK.

NICE PEOPLE... never mind

185 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:51pm

re: #177 CommonCents

A Kelly Johnson Web Site.

Really BBL now.

186 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:59pm

re: #179 jcm

I have a Prius (of course) in my neighborhood, right below the Coexist sticker....

MEAN PEOPLE SUCK.

My favorite bumper sticker is "MEAN PEOPLE KICK ASS."

187 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:59:03pm

re: #179 jcm

I have a Prius (of course) in my neighborhood, right below the Coexist sticker....

MEAN PEOPLE SUCK.

There's something about that Coexist sticker that just agitates my dots.

188 aggieann  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:59:45pm

re: #154 Dave the.....

gmsc, I am grammatically/spelling impaired. I believe I am covered under the ADA act, so you have to accommodate me. I'm the victim here. I feel a lot like Rosa Parks.

The evidence isn't convincing, Dave, since you managed to put two "m"s in accommodate.

189 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:59:58pm

re: #181 CommonCents

Put me out there with a Swedish bikini team and our kids might make it.
/

Put Adrianna in the bow compartment and OR would make it.

190 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:59:59pm

re: #172 Alex F

I wondered why you suddenly showed after not using your account for two years, so I checked.

Imagine my surprise to discover that you're the same person as "pimp_conservative," who was blocked this morning for insulting, abusive comments.

Bye now! Not nice seeing you again.

191 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:00:52pm

re: #177 CommonCents

If given the task Kelly Johnson (Skunkworks) could figure it out.

Or Ed Heinemann (of Douglas fame). The sheer numbers of significant aircraft designed by these two men, before the age of computers, is astonishing.

192 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:02pm

re: #190 Charles

I wondered why you suddenly showed after not using your account for two years, so I checked.

Imagine my surprise to discover that you're the same person as "pimp_conservative," who was blocked this morning for insulting, abusive comments.

Bye now! Not nice seeing you again.

SHOCKA!

193 Beholden  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:03pm

re: #155 calcajun

There also has to be some form of artificial gravity to keep the astronauts muscles from atrophying...

Electric impulses delivered directly to major muscle groups.

194 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:36pm

re: #172 Alex F

What does it matter how many comments I've made. I am no newbie to these forums. It is rather weak response to point out the comment history of those you disagree with, another thing I have seen a lot more of lately.

You haven't noticed folks popping in with old registration, low comment counts then say something like "this isn't the LGF I know?"

It's usually followed by not disagreement, and discussion but by a rant and a dramatic flounce off.

195 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:36pm

re: #172 Alex F

What does it matter how many comments I've made. I am no newbie to these forums. It is rather weak response to point out the comment history of those you disagree with, another thing I have seen a lot more of lately.

I agree with that

196 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:45pm

re: #172 Alex F

What does it matter how many comments I've made. I am no newbie to these forums. It is rather weak response to point out the comment history of those you disagree with, another thing I have seen a lot more of lately.

re: #180 Salamantis

It tends to reveal/expose sleepers, mobys and trolls, and is also an indication of an increased likelihood of a sock for a previously banned poster.

re: #190 Charles

I wondered why you suddenly showed after not using your account for two years, so I checked.

Imagine my surprise to discover that you're the same person as "pimp_conservative," who was blocked this morning for insulting, abusive comments.

Bye now! Not nice seeing you again.

Geez; I'm a prophet...or else a pretty good detective...;~)

197 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:56pm

re: #180 Salamantis

It tends to reveal/expose sleepers, mobys and trolls, and is also an indication of an increased likelihood of a sock for a previously banned poster.

re: #190 Charles

Good call Sal.

198 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:02:21pm

re: #169 Idle Drifter

I kept expecting a scary face to jump out and scream at me so I enjoyed it more the second time around.

199 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:02:45pm

re: #180 Salamantis

It tends to reveal/expose sleepers, mobys and trolls, and is also an indication of an increased likelihood of a sock for a previously banned poster.

tends to maybe, but not always...there is the benefit of the doubt angle that appeals to me

200 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:03:14pm

re: #198 Killgore Trout

I kept expecting a scary face to jump out and scream at me so I enjoyed it more the second time around.

The first time is always scary.

201 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:03:23pm

re: #199 albusteve

tends to maybe, but not always...there is the benefit of the doubt angle that appeals to me

well there goes that theory...

202 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:03:25pm

re: #193 Beholden

Electric impulses delivered directly to major muscle groups.

TORTURE!

203 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:03:36pm

re: #199 albusteve

tends to maybe, but not always...there is the benefit of the doubt angle that appeals to me

In this case, though, it indeed did.

204 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:03:39pm

Uh oh! ... I wonder if Charles is wondering if there's a connection between "pre-Boomer Marine brat" and "pre-Boomer's SockPuppy" !

/:D

205 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:03:40pm

re: #200 CyanSnowHawk

The first time is always scary.

Or at least, clumsy.

206 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:03:44pm

re: #187 CommonCents

There's something about that Coexist sticker that just agitates my dots.

Could it be that the islamic crescent "C"? The rest of the "letters" don't seem to have a big problem coexisting.

207 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:04:01pm

re: #205 MrSilverDragon

Or at least, clumsy.

Awkward

208 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:04:03pm

re: #148 Alex F

Buh-bye, Alex!

In all seriousness, I've actually enjoyed most of the new topics Charles has introduced. Most of my education focused on languages, literature, and history, with a few social sciences sprinkled in. Math and hard sciences confuse and frighten me. Thanks to Charles, I've taken more of an interest in science, particularly biology, geology and astronomy. It's baby steps -- I'm currently enjoying "How the Earth Was Made" on the History Channel, which is hardly a peer-reviewed journal. But I'm learning a lot, and just as learning history helps you understand current events, learning science helps you understand the background on so many political and social issues before us today.

209 Buck  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:04:14pm

re: #148 Alex F

This place is getting scary, with the way you treat anyone who disagrees with you or Charles. What happened to the LGF I loved of years past? This place isn't it.

I have never seen any evidence of Charles mistreating someone just because they disagree with him. I disagree with Charles on some points, and as long as I am respectful... I receive the same back.

There does seem to be a confusion among some of the 'others'. If they have commented here in the past, then that gives them the right to set policy. To anyone rational that would seem... well just wrong.

You, for example, seem to think that LGF is designed for your 'love'. That it is a product that you 'buy', therefore you seem to feel you can express your opinion on how you are falling out of love.

Well, you will discover that Charles really doesn't care if his site is popular or not. He only cares about his own integrity. If people like that, then fine. If they don't.... well let us just say he aint changing just to be popular.

There is something to think about.... Love means for better or worse... not just bas long as the other person acts exactly as you wish.

210 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:04:18pm

re: #204 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Uh oh! ... I wonder if Charles is wondering if there's a connection between "pre-Boomer Marine brat" and "pre-Boomer's SockPuppy" !

/:D


Quick Brat..Get that sock puppy under the bed!

211 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:04:25pm

re: #203 Salamantis

In this case, though, it indeed did.

I gotta toughen up I guess...I'm somewhat of a pushover

212 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:05:48pm

re: #193 Beholden

Electric impulses delivered directly to major muscle groups.

Kinky.

213 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:05:50pm

re: #206 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Could it be that the islamic crescent "C"? The rest of the "letters" don't seem to have a big problem coexisting.

I've thought of adding a burning fuse to the "C" and a question mark at the end.

214 Kragar  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:05:58pm

re: #211 albusteve

I gotta toughen up I guess...I'm somewhat of a pushover

Hey, you! Gimme a dollar!

215 Neutral President  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:05:59pm

re: #187 CommonCents

There's something about that Coexist sticker that just agitates my dots.

The fact that it's always on the cars of Americans who are preaching to the choir. We coexist just fine despite what liberals may think.

Try slapping that on a car in Tehran or Damascus and see what kind of a reaction it gets.

216 Beholden  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:06:03pm

re: #202 jcm

TORTURE!

No, you'd wear regulation spaceman type head gear, not panties.

217 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:06:04pm

Time to get to work. Later all.

218 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:06:20pm

Without naming names.......I finally figured out what you guys were talking about this morning regarding another long time poster joining a stalker blog. We're probably going to see more of this so don't let it surprise you. With the rapidly changing politics these days a lot of people are going to want to go in different directions. These things happen.

219 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:06:37pm

re: #214 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hey, you! Gimme a dollar!

sure, here's two

220 Buck  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:06:50pm

re: #209 Buck

I have never seen any evidence of Charles mistreating someone just because they disagree with him. I disagree with Charles on some points, and as long as I am respectful... I receive the same back.

[snip]

There is something to think about.... Love means for better or worse... not just bas long as the other person acts exactly as you wish.

There I go talking to myself....

Nevermind...

221 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:07:14pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

What's a stalker blog?
(not trying to incite, I really don't have a clue).

222 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:07:16pm

re: #210 HoosierHoops

Quick Brat..Get that sock puppy under the bed!

He's already there.
Can I borrow your wet-vac?
There's this trail along the carpet.

223 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:07:59pm

re: #221 tradewind

What's a stalker blog?
(not trying to incite, I really don't have a clue).

farm equippment...pretty boring actually

224 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:08:23pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Without naming names.......I finally figured out what you guys were talking about this morning regarding another long time poster joining a stalker blog. We're probably going to see more of this so don't let it surprise you. With the rapidly changing politics these days a lot of people are going to want to go in different directions. These things happen.

I'm very disappointed to see that one go over to a site full of evil scumbags; at this point I'm pretty sure it is her.

225 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:08:58pm

World Net Daily headline of the day.....
U.S. bonkers for Obama birth certificate billboard


A national fund-raising campaign to erect billboards around the country questioning Barack Obama's eligibility for office was an instant hit with WND readers in its first 24 hours, said Joseph Farah, editor and chief executive officer of the company and the man who came up with the idea.
226 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:09:22pm

Whether man was created in the image of God, or Ida is the image of God, or God had evolution in his master plan, doesn't really matter to me. I'm still going to church on Sunday. If I came from a monkey or from ashes isn't going to pay the mortgage, get men in space, or stop Ahmed from detonating himself. And I'm not offended if 99.9% or 50% or 10% believe otherwise, that each persons prerogative. Even in an evolution thread there is enough OT banter to keep me entertained.

227 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:09:53pm

re: #221 tradewind

It's a blog of former lizards write about how much Charles sucks and how we're all idiots.

228 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:10:36pm

re: #223 albusteve

Thanks for the threshing. Guess I'll just have to plow through the posts and combine the facts so I can harvest the facts for myself.
/sarc/

229 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:11:15pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

World Net Daily headline of the day.....
U.S. bonkers for Obama birth certificate billboard

A national fund-raising campaign to erect billboards around the country questioning Barack Obama's eligibility for office was an instant hit with WND readers in its first 24 hours, said Joseph Farah, editor and chief executive officer of the company and the man who came up with the idea.

While I don't care for the fact the WND confuses its readers with the entire US, I do have to say that the headline is accurate – probably moreso than they themselves intended.
;)

230 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:11:20pm

re: #224 Charles

Probably. Their attempts at nic jacking in the past have all been really obvious. That comment seemed perfectly plausible.

231 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:11:23pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

It's a blog of former lizards write about how much Charles sucks and how we're all idiots.

they made me infamous...Case #29

232 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:11:27pm

re: #226 CommonCents

Whether man was created in the image of God, or Ida is the image of God, or God had evolution in his master plan, doesn't really matter to me. I'm still going to church on Sunday. If I came from a monkey or from ashes isn't going to pay the mortgage, get men in space, or stop Ahmed from detonating himself. And I'm not offended if 99.9% or 50% or 10% believe otherwise, that each persons prerogative. Even in an evolution thread there is enough OT banter to keep me entertained.

I was just thinking the same thing this morning. It doesn't matter whether God fashioned man from the earth or from a lesser being. We had to exist as man first, then were touched with the spark of the Divine.

233 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:11:49pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

Thanks.
What a colossal waste of time and energy when they could just argue politely and respectfully with Charles right here. I haven't seen him cut anyone off who is seriously disagreeing on an issue and not just being pissy.......

234 Killer Tomato  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:12:14pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

True.
I've been busy at work, busy in the garden, busy with a huge home improvement project...
Someday I'll poke my head up and find out what the heck is new, but not today.

Hey all - hope everyone's healthy and happy!
Catch you later -

235 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:12:31pm

re: #224 Charles

I'm very disappointed to see that one go over to a site full of evil scumbags; at this point I'm pretty sure it is her.

I am deeply disappointed. The only issue I saw was the poster in question misspelled alot of words in the 6-7 comments I searched for..Doesn't seem quite right..
I couldn't believe they are doing a running commentary over there of us..
Just creepy stuff..

236 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:12:36pm

re: #228 tradewind

Thanks for the threshing. Guess I'll just have to plow through the posts and combine the facts so I can harvest the facts for myself.
/sarc/

Did you furrow your brow much in coming up with that trifecta of puns?

237 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:12:59pm

re: #228 tradewind

Thanks for the threshing. Guess I'll just have to plow through the posts and combine the facts so I can harvest the facts for myself.
/sarc/

seriously...a stalker is a machine that grinds up corn stalks...thereby rendering them fit as a asphalt extender

238 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:13:12pm

re: #236 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Not at all, deere.

239 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:13:35pm

re: #237 albusteve

seriously...a stalker is a machine that grinds up corn stalks...thereby rendering them fit as a asphalt extender

Huh. I never knew that.

240 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:14:02pm

re: #233 tradewind

Thanks.
What a colossal waste of time and energy when they could just argue politely and respectfully with Charles right here. I haven't seen him cut anyone off who is seriously disagreeing on an issue and not just being pissy.......

in this case, that was not the case...if it's true

241 Mr. Sandman  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:14:04pm

It's good to promote and popularize interesting science, such as this find, but it is also important to try to avoid pushing misconceptions of evolution in doing so. One of the points these scientists are making is that the whole notion of "the missing link" is a meaningless concept scientifically speaking. There is no such thing as "THE" missing link, the evolutionary path from non-human primates and humans is a continuum, and there is no "privileged" species standing at some "pinnacle" of evolution that needs to be "linked" to "lower" animals. The whole way of thinking about evolution implied by such terms is wrong-headed. And in addition, fossils such as this find are far more likely (given the number of possibilities in each scenario) to be "cousins" branching out from the non-human primate to human path, than being directly on that line.

242 MightySkip  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:14:07pm

I know beating up creationists is a favorite pastime around here. I beg and urge everyone not to push overall scientific work into the realm of media pop culture phenomenon. Scientific institutions are already getting significantly corrupted by politics and money.

There have been big missteps in the recent past involving scientists claiming to have accomplished technological leaps only for them to be revealed as hoaxes. More peer reviewed papers are being discovered as false or falsified. This kind of attitude will only further obfuscate clear scientific thinking.

243 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:14:22pm

OT....

Iran Test-Fires Missile With 1,200-Mile Range

Iran test fired an upgraded surface-to-surface missile with a range of about 1,200 miles on Wednesday, the Iranian government announced and Western officials confirmed.

The reported range of the Sejil-2 missile would put it within striking distance of Israel and of American bases in the Persian Gulf, though the Iranian leader did not allude to any specific target beyond Iran’s borders in the news agency account.

Kermanshah Iran to Tel Aviv...
713 miles.

244 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:14:33pm

re: #239 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Huh. I never knew that.

I made it up, that's why

245 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:15:22pm

re: #244 albusteve

I made it up, that's why

/shakes fist at albusteve

246 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:15:27pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

It's a blog of former lizards write about how much Charles sucks and how we're all idiots.

well ,,, one outta 2 ain't bad

(personally speaking as an ijit!)

/////// (MAJOR ! )

247 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:15:39pm

re: #233 tradewind

Thanks.
What a colossal waste of time and energy when they could just argue politely and respectfully with Charles right here. I haven't seen him cut anyone off who is seriously disagreeing on an issue and not just being pissy.......

The people who run that site, and most of the commenters, are not capable of arguing normally -- they're simply deranged, and full of hatred. One of the main contributors, Marc Thomas Donato (“savagenation”) was banned from LGF after posting a series of comments threatening to murder his daughter's boyfriend. This should tell you what's going on at that site.

248 jaunte  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:16:13pm

re: #242 MightySkip

Can you be a little more specific?

249 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:16:17pm

re: #242 MightySkip

I know beating up creationists is a favorite pastime around here. I beg and urge everyone not to push overall scientific work into the realm of media pop culture phenomenon. Scientific institutions are already getting significantly corrupted by politics and money.

There have been big missteps in the recent past involving scientists claiming to have accomplished technological leaps only for them to be revealed as hoaxes. More peer reviewed papers are being discovered as false or falsified. This kind of attitude will only further obfuscate clear scientific thinking.

I've never seen an example of that...have you?, if so how does that work?

250 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:16:29pm

re: #237 albusteve

And that's what elicited the response...
(A while back, even people down here in the Delta grew corn for seed and feed along with the cotton and beans).

251 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:16:34pm

re: #243 jcm

OT....

Iran Test-Fires Missile With 1,200-Mile Range


Kermanshah Iran to Tel Aviv...
713 miles.

Maybe they are gearing up to take on China?
///////////

252 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:16:35pm

From Ron Paul forums.....

Judge Andrew Napolitano to Host Glenn Beck's Show Today (05/20/2009)
FYI:

Judge Napolitano is going to be the guest host on Glenn Beck's show today: [Link: twitter.com...]

5:00 P.M. EST on Fox News

Oh, joy.
/

253 MrSilverDragon  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:16:37pm

re: #245 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

/shakes fist at albusteve

I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing WITH you.

/snicker

(nice albusteve. ;) )

254 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:17:10pm

re: #234 Killer Tomato


Someday I'll poke my head up and find out what the heck is new, but not today.


Heh. That's the spirit!

255 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:17:48pm

re: #240 albusteve

Now I have to go all the way back up threads to find a fight?
Dammit.

256 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:17:54pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout

From Ron Paul forums.....

Judge Andrew Napolitano to Host Glenn Beck's Show Today (05/20/2009)
FYI:
Judge Napolitano is going to be the guest host on Glenn Beck's show today: [Link: twitter.com...]

5:00 P.M. EST on Fox News

Oh, joy.
/

I like the Judge when he's talking about legal issues. After all his name is Judge. He should stick to it.

257 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:18:14pm

re: #250 tradewind

And that's what elicited the response...
(A while back, even people down here in the Delta grew corn for seed and feed along with the cotton and beans).

corn for seed?...riiight....pass the jug

258 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:18:32pm

re: #256 CommonCents

I like the Judge when he's talking about legal issues. After all his name is Judge. He should stick to it.

Say what you will about the man, he does have a glorious head of hair.

259 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:18:49pm

re: #224 Charles

I'm very disappointed to see that one go over to a site full of evil scumbags; at this point I'm pretty sure it is her.

OK, another candidate for the "What?!" button.

260 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:19:31pm

re: #239 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I never heard about the asphalt thing, but there was a machine that stripped off the stalks. I think it was supposed to be dangerous re someone losing an arm.

261 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:19:31pm

re: #255 tradewind

Now I have to go all the way back up threads to find a fight?
Dammit.

it's really not worth it...it is what it is

262 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:19:45pm

re: #258 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Say what you will about the man, he does have a glorious head of hair.

Reminds me of an well aged Eddie Munster.

263 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:19:45pm

re: #256 CommonCents

He's a dangerous nutcase.

264 Buck  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:20:24pm

re: #243 jcm

OT....

Iran Test-Fires Missile With 1,200-Mile Range

Kermanshah Iran to Tel Aviv...
713 miles.

Yes, but even at 700 miles an hour....

No I have never believed Iran would attack with a missile from Iran. It would be the height of stupidity. If only because it would be so easy to trace back.

Why bother when a commercial airliner taking off from Lebanon would be much easier, untraceable and much cheaper...

The whole missile thing, IMO is to scare other Muslim/Arab countries. I bit like a dog trying to be dominate among the pack...

265 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:20:28pm

re: #257 albusteve

You don't know about seed corn?
LOL.
You don't need a jug, you need an encyclopedia.
Or google, actually.

266 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:21:32pm

re: #224 Charles

I'm very disappointed to see that one go over to a site full of evil scumbags; at this point I'm pretty sure it is her.

A shame, and something I wondered about since I first saw her nic over there about a week or so ago. She seemed like a decent commentor here. It seems as though some cannot see that nest of vipers for what it is.

267 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:21:38pm

re: #264 Buck

The whole missile thing, IMO is to scare other Muslim/Arab countries. I bit like a dog trying to be dominate among the pack...

Good analogy. Unclean beasts!
/

268 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:22:32pm

So where is this comment by Goddess (or hijacker of her niK)?

269 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:22:38pm

re: #257 albusteve

corn for seed?...riiight....pass the jug

Corn wont grow at all on rocky top,
Dirts too rocky by far.
Thats why all the folks on rocky top
Get their corn from a jar.

270 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:22:57pm

re: #190 Charles

I wondered why you suddenly showed after not using your account for two years, so I checked.

Imagine my surprise to discover that you're the same person as "pimp_conservative," who was blocked this morning for insulting, abusive comments.

Bye now! Not nice seeing you again.

The human mind is fascinating! What would prompt someone to log back on with another username after being tossed earlier in the day, and then when back in instead of blending in and debating honeslty write posts that just SCREAM " HEY ,, LOOK AT ME !"

271 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:23:13pm

re: #242 MightySkip

I know beating up creationists is a favorite pastime around here. I beg and urge everyone not to push overall scientific work into the realm of media pop culture phenomenon. Scientific institutions are already getting significantly corrupted by politics and money.

There have been big missteps in the recent past involving scientists claiming to have accomplished technological leaps only for them to be revealed as hoaxes. More peer reviewed papers are being discovered as false or falsified. This kind of attitude will only further obfuscate clear scientific thinking.

Please link to such recent papers in the field of evolution or related bioscienes.

272 MightySkip  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:23:27pm

The Scientist recently wrote a story on how Merck faked journals, six of them. Its behind a registration but its free. Essentially companies create "education and communication" companies which are really marketing PR campaigns. Latest statistics indicate at least 10% of biomedical journal articles are written in the PR departments of companies.

[Link: www.the-scientist.com...]

As far as fake research is concerned, and I'll never understand why people who make such high profile claims think they won't be found out, the most recent famous episode is the South Korean research team involved in human cloning. I can provide more examples if you are interested.

273 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:23:31pm

re: #265 tradewind

You don't know about seed corn?
LOL.
You don't need a jug, you need an encyclopedia.
Or google, actually.

I do....Upjohn Pharm, right up the road from where I grew up was a premier researcher of seed stock, primarily corn

274 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:24:13pm

re: #264 Buck

Yes, but even at 700 miles an hour....

No I have never believed Iran would attack with a missile from Iran. It would be the height of stupidity. If only because it would be so easy to trace back.

Why bother when a commercial airliner taking off from Lebanon would be much easier, untraceable and much cheaper...

The whole missile thing, IMO is to scare other Muslim/Arab countries. I bit like a dog trying to be dominate among the pack...

Correct.

First gen warheads are heavy, their missiles just don't have the payload.

Yet.

275 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:24:22pm

re: #273 albusteve

I do....Upjohn Pharm, right up the road from where I grew up was a premier researcher of seed stock, primarily corn

I always snicker when I hear/see Upjohn.

276 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:24:23pm

re: #269 jcm

Corn wont grow at all on rocky top,
Dirts too rocky by far.
Thats why all the folks on rocky top
Get their corn from a jar.

a favorite old classic...thanks

277 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:25:30pm

re: #275 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I always snicker when I hear/see Upjohn.

why?...I grew up around the family

278 KingKenrod  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:26:14pm

Hotair linked the following essay about the Ida fossil and the fallibility of scientists:

[Link: www.instapunk.com...]

It's not an anti-evolution piece, but it's very skeptical of the certainty expressed by many scientists. I admire this kind of skepticism. The bit about the way scientists anthropomorphize natural processes is valid. Creationists seize on these kind of statements and turn scientists into their own worst enemy.

279 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:26:18pm

re: #233 tradewind

They'll never argue politely here. It's one of the reasons they got banned in the first place. See Charles's #247 for more about Mr. Donato (aka "Savage"). They allow a lot of comments like that over there, a fair number of comments about using red hot pokers on certain LGF commentors, and calls for genocide. It's rather disgusting, and they let those comments stand.

280 Wendya  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:27:15pm

re: #15 avanti

What's all the fuss ? If you read this link, it explains she was just a extinct primate created on the 6th day of Genesis. /s

Creationist nuts

Check out their poll. I doubt it's going the way they intended.

281 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:28:58pm

re: #272 MightySkip

The Scientist recently wrote a story on how Merck faked journals, six of them. Its behind a registration but its free. Essentially companies create "education and communication" companies which are really marketing PR campaigns. Latest statistics indicate at least 10% of biomedical journal articles are written in the PR departments of companies.

[Link: www.the-scientist.com...]

As far as fake research is concerned, and I'll never understand why people who make such high profile claims think they won't be found out, the most recent famous episode is the South Korean research team involved in human cloning. I can provide more examples if you are interested.

That has to do with pimping new medicines or falsely claiming to have done something possible but controversial, not about fabricating empirical evidence having to do with evolutionary theory.

282 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:29:52pm

re: #1 OldLineTexan

My only complaint is that is should have been named "Ura".

/Ura Monkey, get it?
/har har har

Believe it was named after the researcher's six-year-old daughter. Who, I have on reliable authority, does not have a tail.

283 MightySkip  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:31:45pm

re: #281 Salamantis

Agreed. I'm not arguing evolutionary theory, the fossil does represent a significant find. What I'm arguing against is the popularization of science, because money and fame have corrupting influences.

I'm not saying its that way now, but scientists are no more immune to the tempation than anyone else.

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:32:07pm

re: #25 ladycatnip

Would this also be the reason we see muslima.com ads here - that islamists are pushing on sites that are not congenial to their religion? It seems strange and absurd to me that creationists and islamists would target this site, yet I'm sure pro-evolution/science or pro- Jewish/Christian ads wouldn't appear on their sites (which is only conjecture on my part since I don't frequent those sites).

I think it's all done by computer--words that pop up frequently.

We say "Muslim, Islam, Mohammed..." the computer says "Ah! Muslim singles ads!"

285 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:32:19pm

re: #272 MightySkip

The Scientist recently wrote a story on how Merck faked journals, six of them. Its behind a registration but its free. Essentially companies create "education and communication" companies which are really marketing PR campaigns. Latest statistics indicate at least 10% of biomedical journal articles are written in the PR departments of companies.

[Link: www.the-scientist.com...]

As far as fake research is concerned, and I'll never understand why people who make such high profile claims think they won't be found out, the most recent famous episode is the South Korean research team involved in human cloning. I can provide more examples if you are interested.

The number of "faked" scientific papers is a teeny tiny minority compared to the total number of peer reviewed papers that are published. And please note that the faked papers, and mistaken papers that get past peer review, are invariably revealed by the same process of peer review and scientific scrutiny.

286 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:34:30pm

re: #247 Charles

You had me at ' savagenation'.
Threatening to murder a boyfriend? People who post stuff like that every once in a while make the news for actually doing it... creepy.

287 tradewind  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:35:09pm

re: #261 albusteve

You didn't really take that seriously......

288 MightySkip  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:35:48pm

re: #285 Charles

Again, agreed. I just don't think its a good idea to push scientists down the stairs head first into an ideological argument. Putting pressure on a scientist to get the "right" results often results in faulty science.

Its not bad now and I'd like to keep it that way.

289 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:36:18pm

re: #283 MightySkip

Agreed. I'm not arguing evolutionary theory, the fossil does represent a significant find. What I'm arguing against is the popularization of science, because money and fame have corrupting influences.

I'm not saying its that way now, but scientists are no more immune to the tempation than anyone else.

I would like to see biology, chemistry, astronomy, paleontology, geology, and physics achieve much more popularity among America's youth than they presently enjoy. I cannot conceive of them ever being too popular with kids.

We'll never see the day when our best scientists are paid as well as our best actors, musicians, or athletes.

290 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:36:45pm

re: #278 KingKenrod

Hotair linked the following essay about the Ida fossil and the fallibility of scientists:

[Link: www.instapunk.com...]

It's not an anti-evolution piece, but it's very skeptical of the certainty expressed by many scientists. I admire this kind of skepticism. The bit about the way scientists anthropomorphize natural processes is valid. Creationists seize on these kind of statements and turn scientists into their own worst enemy.

That's an extremely unimpressive essay, in my opinion. The fact that he brings up "Piltdown Man" is a giveaway for his agenda -- that fraud was uncovered nearly a hundred years ago, but is invariably raised up again like a rotting zombie every time a new paleontological discovery is made, to try to cast doubt on scientific claims.

The research behind "Ida" is very solid; scientists are going to argue and debate and disagree about its meaning, but equating it with debunked frauds like Piltdown Man is intellectually dishonest.

291 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:37:36pm

re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So did I. Then I learned that science is really, really, really, really hard. You have to be really, really, really, really smart to understand it. You have to study really, really, really, really hard to advance in it.

I like skimming the surface of it and saying, "Whoa! That shit is cool!"

We also serve, who only watch the Discovery channel.

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:38:19pm

re: #90 Abu Lahab

By the way, does everyone see the "Ida" Google logo when you access it? There are usually differences.

I saw it. Very neat.

293 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:39:00pm

re: #289 Salamantis

I would like to see biology, chemistry, astronomy, paleontology, geology, and physics achieve much more popularity among America's youth than they presently enjoy. I cannot conceive of them ever being too popular with kids.

We'll never see the day when our best scientists are paid as well as our best actors, musicians, or athletes.

Sadly,, thats been the case for decades (Babe Ruth commenting on a report that he got paid more than the President,,"I had a better year")

294 Honorary Yooper  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:42:17pm

re: #286 tradewind

You had me at ' savagenation'.
Threatening to murder a boyfriend? People who post stuff like that every once in a while make the news for actually doing it... creepy.

Yeah, he's a sick fuck. He runs that site with Rodan, King of Sockpuppets. Gotta wonder how many of them are Rodan just talking to himself.

295 MightySkip  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:45:56pm

re: #289 Salamantis

True, but I long ago gave up the idea of fame and fortune when pursing science. 'If you want to make more money, be a lawyer' is what I tell anyone trying to pursue a scientific career.

At least when you are paid poorly the only ones who do the work are very dedicated!

296 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:46:04pm

re: #290 Charles

That's an extremely unimpressive essay, in my opinion. The fact that he brings up "Piltdown Man" is a giveaway for his agenda -- that fraud was uncovered nearly a hundred years ago, but is invariably raised up again like a rotting zombie every time a new paleontological discovery is made, to try to cast doubt on scientific claims.

The research behind "Ida" is very solid; scientists are going to argue and debate and disagree about its meaning, but equating it with debunked frauds like Piltdown Man is intellectually dishonest.

I can't locate the authors name. I did click on the Hot Air article and Allahpundit gets it wrongs once again in his title: Darwinists rejoice: Missing link found
Perhaps he titled it as such for sensationalist purposes. The other essay gets it wrong too in characterizing the fossil as a "missing link."

It's not a "missing link" and that doesn't even account for the fact that the phrase "missing link" has been abandoned.

297 Hhar  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:52:15pm

A few points:

1. The Ida hype is over the top, to the point of being funny. This really does deserve a fisking. It is hyperbolic statement after hyperbolic statement, and takes really fabulous research and presents it as nonsense. Look at this:

"The search for a direct connection between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom has taken 200 years - but it was presented to the world today at a special news conference in New York."


Yeah, before Ida, no one knew we were related to chimpanzees.

They say its impact on the world of palaeontology will be "somewhat like an asteroid falling down to Earth".


Mass extinction of paleontologists is expected.

Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and the then radical, outlandish ideas he came up with during his time aboard the Beagle.


Because it was in so much legitimate doubt before....

Do I really need the sarcasm tags?

I mean, really, that's three sentences in, and its all so much crap, and its easy to lampoon the rest. This is a lovely important fossil, but if it is sold like some sort of Kabala water, it will be justifiably derided, mocked and scorned, and science will not gain any respect or stature, because it is easy to see that this stuff is nonsense. It isn't the over-selling of science, its the breathless sensationalism that takes a wonderful idea and sells it like Miss California's boob implants: titiillating nonsense that nobody with an ounce of self respect should take seriously.

Yes, scientists should get in the game. But what are scientists saying? You have a few very prominent scientists positively urging culture wars (Dr dawkins, is that you?) on the evils of Abrahamic religions in general, and they serve as fine people for demagogues to quote. Currently, American conservatism is melting down over creationism, and it is frankly ghastly to watch. I have no personal solutions to this, but I do know that what is being said about Ida invites ridicule by anyone who, however misinformed, likes to make up their own mind. I like people who try to make up their own minds, and this fatuous crap loses them.

end rant.

298 Baier  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:54:38pm

I can understand the need for the PR, coming from a marketing background. This effort helps secure funds for projects and may get smart young people interested in science.
Anyhow, I'd rather see a world with giant award ceremonies for science on prime-time than the kind we have now; a bunch of Hollywood clowns sucking each other off.

299 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:01:10pm

re: #297 Hhar

Sky News is probably not the best source for good science writing.

300 sattv4u2  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:03:52pm

re: #299 Charles

Sky News is probably not the best source for good science writing.

sorry !

301 Hhar  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:06:51pm

re: #296 Gus 802

Well, yeah, it isn't a "missing link, Gus802, but you look at people talking about it here or here, and for some reason everybody in the media calls it something that anyone who knows anything knows is completely misleading. It is cringeworthy: the fossil is being advertised as the ancestor of primates. Willi Hennig is spinning in his grave.

302 Hhar  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:12:46pm

re: #299 Charles

Sure, but Sky News is popular, and that is what this is about: the politics of science. Look at the Google searches I posted. We have people here decrying the use of "missing link" but for some reason, the phrase is being used alot. I guess they didn't get the memo, nu?

I can tell you: I have had rational, if heated debates, with creationists over religion, politics and taste in music (I usually lose the latter), but when all the news media is talking about missing link, and you tell them "Well, that isn't really a good term" then it is very reasonable for them to think that someone is trying to pull a fast one on them, and it really isn't easy to demonstrate that it isn't you.

303 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:13:53pm

re: #301 Hhar

Well, yeah, it isn't a "missing link, Gus802, but you look at people talking about it here or here, and for some reason everybody in the media calls it something that anyone who knows anything knows is completely misleading. It is cringeworthy: the fossil is being advertised as the ancestor of primates. Willi Hennig is spinning in his grave.

Well, that the media gets things wrong is nothing new. It can be considered "a link." One of the greatest things about the find is the age of the fossil and anatomical features. Plos One reports the following:

Conclusions/Significance

Darwinius masillae represents the most complete fossil primate ever found, including both skeleton, soft body outline and contents of the digestive tract. Study of all these features allows a fairly complete reconstruction of life history, locomotion, and diet. Any future study of Eocene-Oligocene primates should benefit from information preserved in the Darwinius holotype. Of particular importance to phylogenetic studies, the absence of a toilet claw and a toothcomb demonstrates that Darwinius masillae is not simply a fossil lemur, but part of a larger group of primates, Adapoidea, representative of the early haplorhine diversification.

304 joekowalski247  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:25:31pm
305 Hhar  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:26:17pm

Gee Gusre: #303 Gus 802

Thanks, I do know what the report says, and I do understand its importance. But look, if you have something being sold as the greatest thing since disposable diapers by people who either clearly do not grasp or misrepresent it, or who are willing to act as spirit mediums for the ghost of Charles Darwin (Richard Attenbourough, come on down!) and then turn around and say its all in the name of reason and light, people will reasonably be skeptical of the motives for selling it.

Creationists in my experience are not stupid people. The conflict between science and their religion is right up front and important to them, and people keep telling them "Believe me, not you!". Well, why should they, and what is in it for you?

306 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:36:11pm

This is the one thing that irks me about the way the sciences are covered in the lay media (and sometimes in science-specific media too).

---

Computer Programmers: "Hey, folks... some interesting and possibly unpredictable things could very easily happen as a result of old, embedded systems in certain mission-critical applications. It's highly advisable to check out your stuff and take appropriate steps."
Press: "PLANES WILL FALL FLAMING FROM THE SKY AT 12:00AM Jan 01 2000!"
Businesses/Govt's/Etc.: "Hey folks, we spent a ton of money and fixed anything that was found to potentially be a serious problem. Good job, all."
Press: "Zillions of dollars were spent updating systems for Y2K, which turned out to be not really a big deal. We can't possibly see a connection between the update efforts and the lack of real trouble."
Public: "There they go again, those egg-head scientists with their doom-and-gloom predictions."

---

CERN: "The Large Hadron Collider may reveal new and extremely important information about the structure of our universe itself."
Press: "Scientists say the LHC will finally solve all mysteries for all time, that is if it doesn't destroy the universe in the process."
Public: "Look at those scientists, always playing God. Tsk tsk."
CERN: "Uh-oh, we've had a bit of a problem which will set us back several months."
Press: "LHC EPIC FAIL - Disaster averted!"
Public: "See, those stupid scientists don't know anything; they can't even make their gadget work. What a waste of money! Rant rant."

---

Paleontologists: "Whoa, look at this awesome fossil! Hey everybody, here are some conclusions we've jumped to before proper peer review!"
Press: "Scientists declare new fossil answers all questions about biology for all time!"
Other scientists: "Now wait, hang on a minute..."
Press: "Huge controversy over new fossil threatens to destroy science as we know it!"
Public: "Look at that, scientists can't agree on everything, therefore everything about their fields of study are suspect and probably wrong!"

---

Docs / Biologists: "Umm wow, this new flu strain could be major trouble. We think precautions should be taken and much study undertaken so the shit doesn't hit the fan."
Press: "OMG DEADLY NEW FLU ABSOLUTELY WILL KILL EVERYONE BY THIS WEEKEND!"
Various health organizations: "Hey guys, we noticed people are being more careful about hygiene which is always good, and after further investigation it seems that we still need to watch this thing, but it's not absolutely going to kill everyone like you may have heard."
Public: "Ha ha, look... the end of the world didn't come! See how stupid those scientists are? All that effort wasted for nothing."

---

Climatologists: "Hey folks, we have some troubling information that really needs to be examined..."

etc.

307 John Neverbend  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:41:55pm

re: #278 KingKenrod

Hotair linked the following essay about the Ida fossil and the fallibility of scientists:

[Link: www.instapunk.com...]

It's not an anti-evolution piece, but it's very skeptical of the certainty expressed by many scientists. I admire this kind of skepticism.

Some years ago, I was fortunate in attending a debate, purportedly about science and religion but which rapidly degenerated into a rather unbalanced (in that one side was substantially favoured over the other) and heated argument about neo-Darwinism. There were four neo-Darwinists and one ID proponent. The neo-Darwinists included Richard Dawkins and John Maynard Smith. Maynard Smith was a very fine and tolerant speaker. He addressed the question of the certainty of his beliefs by recalling Oliver Cromwell's plea to the Church of Scotland, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." Maynard Smith freely admitted that he was fallible, that he could be wrong, but he believed on examination of the evidence then available that it was unlikely. So, there is perhaps no certainty, but an increasingly small chance of being in error as evidence accumulates.

308 kynna  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:43:13pm

My only concern here is with the typical MSM coverage. I don't think they understand what they're reporting and they're making claims the scientists themselves aren't making (mostly in the headlines, as is typical). This is where ID'ers point out inconsistency and build a mountain.

This is an exciting find. I'm looking forward to seeing what they learn. But it should be used to bring people to the table, not beat them over the head and banish them.

BTW -- I was working for an publishing company that was working on a series about dinosaurs. This was back in the 80's and one of the consultants on the initial research mentioned the chicken connection. Another consultant laughed out loud at the researcher that brought it up in another Q&A. Both were respected scientists. Of course, the chicken connection was proved right, but it just reminded all of us of how contentious actual science can be and how exciting these new developments really are. Which is one of the things getting lost as science continues to be politicized and manipulated.

(to be fair, I think the laughing guy was more amused by the researcher taking what was, at that time, unproven or even unpublished as absolute fact -- they probably run into that a lot)

I wonder how many GOP Creationists are simply ill informed by those people who are using their religion for access (something that appalls me as a Christian). A polite and respectful letter campaign might be a good way to help some of these "leaders" to see what's actually being sold to them.

309 Lincolntf  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:43:45pm

Anyone here subscribe to Scientific American? This month's issue showed up today. Very informative feature on the evolution of housecats, and a column about the Conficker worm. They actually laid off of their global warming hysteria for a month, which was a pleasant surprise.

310 Hhar  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:50:06pm

re: #307 John Neverbend

Maynard Smith was always the gentleman. His writing was clear and incisive. You were fortunate to hear to hear him. He was an arch reductionist, and held little truck with political or cultural ideologies in science.

The most important book I read as an undergraduate was his "Evolution and the Theory of Games". It is a beautiful little work, and a splendid introduction to a whole way of thinking.

311 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:51:45pm

re: #278 KingKenrod

Hotair linked the following essay about the Ida fossil and the fallibility of scientists:

[Link: www.instapunk.com...]

It's not an anti-evolution piece, but it's very skeptical of the certainty expressed by many scientists. I admire this kind of skepticism. The bit about the way scientists anthropomorphize natural processes is valid. Creationists seize on these kind of statements and turn scientists into their own worst enemy.

It's not valid, it's a cheapshot. Scientists use what Dennet called the 'intentional level' of description all the time - it doesn't mean they are suffering from any anthropomorphic delusions.

312 Gearhead  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:55:53pm

Ida in the sky with diamonds,
Ida in the sky with diamonds.

313 John Neverbend  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:57:14pm

re: #310 Hhar

Maynard Smith was always the gentleman. His writing was clear and incisive. You were fortunate to hear to hear him. He was an arch reductionist, and held little truck with political or cultural ideologies in science.

The most important book I read as an undergraduate was his "Evolution and the Theory of Games". It is a beautiful little work, and a splendid introduction to a whole way of thinking.

He's sorely missed.

I've heard Dawkins speaking on two occasions, and he's really quite witty. I enjoyed his "rebuttal" of Anselm's Ontological Argument in The God Delusion, not because it was particularly convincing, which it wasn't, but because it was extremely funny.

314 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:04:35pm

re: #313 John Neverbend

He's sorely missed.

I've heard Dawkins speaking on two occasions, and he's really quite witty. I enjoyed his "rebuttal" of Anselm's Ontological Argument in The God Delusion, not because it was particularly convincing, which it wasn't, but because it was extremely funny.

You should try Irreligion: A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up, by John Allen Paulos, mathematic propfessor at Temple University, and the author of the much-celebrated Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences. He deals with not only Anselm's argument, but eleven others. And he is a bit infected with BDS, but he's a very funny writer and an excellent logician.

315 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:08:40pm

Conway's game of life. (Dennet discussed this in relation to the different levels of description that scientists and philosophers use when talking about nature.)

[Link: www.bitstorm.org...]

I just inadvertently created a 'flasher' of some sort, on my first try. You can create all kinds of 'higher forms' in these worlds, right up to 'working' computers. Interesting.

316 Querent  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:15:45pm

re: #294 Honorary Yooper

Yeah, he's a sick fuck. He runs that site with Rodan, King of Sockpuppets. Gotta wonder how many of them are Rodan just talking to himself.

would you, could you, in Japan?
With Godzilla and Rodan?

317 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:21:15pm

re: #315 Jimmah

Conway's game of life. (Dennet discussed this in relation to the different levels of description that scientists and philosophers use when talking about nature.)

[Link: www.bitstorm.org...]

I just inadvertently created a 'flasher' of some sort, on my first try. You can create all kinds of 'higher forms' in these worlds, right up to 'working' computers. Interesting.

BTW, there's a great article on using simulations to study evolution. It's called Get A-Life.

Check it out – it's a must read!

318 Hhar  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:31:59pm

BTW, For those out there who think the hyperbole around Ida is the fault of those stupid media guys who can't get it right, just visit Ida's website here, where the paleontologist talks about it like its an asteroid hitting the earth, and the guys who own the website need a little talking to about what 'missing link" means too.

She's one of our earliest ancestors!

It is hyperbolic crap.

If people really think that the only way to convince rational people about the value of evolutionary biology is to systematically distort it, we are in trouble, because that's EXACTLY what the Discovery Institute dudes think is true.

319 jmuren  Thu, May 21, 2009 8:31:13am

Ida is not a missing link in OUR lineage. See this article: [Link: www.newscientist.com...]

320 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:01:43am

re: #319 jmuren

Ida is not a missing link in OUR lineage. See this article: [Link: www.newscientist.com...]

That's one opinion, not the definitive truth. Scientists are going to argue over the meaning of the Ida fossil -- that's what they do.

321 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 21, 2009 6:41:40pm

"It’s past time for real scientists to get in the game — with the caveat that they don’t forget to do the real research to back up the media effort."

They should avoid posting that embryo drawing by Haeckel. That didn't work out so well.

322 picaro  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:37:46pm

re: #290 Charles

Actually, Piltdown Man was not revealed as a hoax nearly 100 years ago. The fossil was produced in 1912, but was not proven to be a forgery until 1953. Oddly, it was in my 1970s-era high school biology textbook with examples of other hominid fossils (must have been a 29th edition of a 1940s text that wasn't edited properly.) My teacher pointed out the 'error'.

323 Salamantis  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:17am

re: #321 rwdflynavy

"It’s past time for real scientists to get in the game — with the caveat that they don’t forget to do the real research to back up the media effort."

They should avoid posting that embryo drawing by Haeckel. That didn't work out so well.

The interesting thing is that actual pictures of the embryos in question make the evolutionary case more strongly, not less.

324 Salamantis  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:43am

re: #322 picaro

Actually, Piltdown Man was not revealed as a hoax nearly 100 years ago. The fossil was produced in 1912, but was not proven to be a forgery until 1953. Oddly, it was in my 1970s-era high school biology textbook with examples of other hominid fossils (must have been a 29th edition of a 1940s text that wasn't edited properly.) My teacher pointed out the 'error'.

It was challenged and doubted almost from the moment it was presented:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

325 jmuren  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:03:29pm

re: #320 Charles

I can certainly agree that it is indeed his opinion. Since he is probably not the only scientist in the field that has that opinion, I think that for the time being, until more research (and hopefully more fossils) are found, the "IDA is a human ancestor" talk should be taken with the appropriate caveats for the sake of scientific accuracy.
I don't want you to think that I am merely bringing up the New Scientist article to be contrary; there are plenty of fossils showing many creatures in transitory forms covering a wide swath of the fossil record. There is no need to insist on a connection where there might not be one, especially when it comes to human evolutionary lineage. In fact, I believe there needs to be even MORE care when doing this in the event the connection is later found to be wrong (even if it is from a very closely related branch).

326 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:07:13pm

re: #325 jmuren

They did two years of research before they announced Ida. I would hardly consider that to be reckless. And she was sold specifically so that she could be researched- and further research on her will be done.

327 jmuren  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:10:54pm

re: #326 Sharmuta

And yet, after two years, there is still quite a bit of discussion going on related to this particular fossil in scientific circles, and that is to be expected. If "Ida" turns out to be in the human lineage, great, but if she isn't, then all this press will seem like what happened to Geraldo when he opened up Al Capone's secret vault, and that would be the real shame.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 77 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
5 days ago
Views: 178 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1