Thousands of Children Abused and Raped in Irish Catholic Reform Schools

Religion • Views: 3,818

The horrific story behind Ireland’s Catholic reform schools has been circulating for a long time, but today the final report was issued after nine years of investigation, and the truth is more vile than we could have imagined: Thousands beaten, raped in Irish reform schools.

DUBLIN (AP) — A fiercely debated, nine-year investigation into Ireland’s Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorized thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.

High Court Justice Sean Ryan on Wednesday unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland’s Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse, which is based on testimony from thousands of former students and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families — a category that often included unmarried mothers — were sent to Ireland’s austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report found that molestation and rape were “endemic” in boys’ facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

“In some schools a high level of ritualized beating was routine. … Girls were struck with implements designed to maximize pain and were struck on all parts of the body,” the report said. “Personal and family denigration was widespread.”

Victims of the system have long demanded that the truth of their experiences be documented and made public, so that children in Ireland never endure such suffering again. But most leaders of religious orders have rejected the allegations as exaggerations and lies, and testified to the commission that any abuses were the responsibility of often long-dead individuals.

Wednesday’s five-volume report sides almost completely with the former students’ accounts. It concludes that church officials always shielded their orders’ pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy.

This story is just nauseating. The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for.

UPDATE at 5/20/09 3:39:24 pm:

Here is the HTML version of the report’s nightmarish conclusions. (Hat tip: Gus 802.)

Jump to bottom

443 comments
1 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:01:07pm

What? That's revolting!

2 Fenway_Nation  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:01:44pm

All the more reason I'm glad my forebears made their way off that craggy bog for the New World.

3 BlueCanuck  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:03:25pm

Why is it that stories like these seem to come from a lot of Catholic run schools across the world? I hope there is a special place in hell for the people that are guilty of such acts.

4 bosforus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:03:48pm

I'm not so sure humans descended from monkeys or lemurs, looks like we may have more in common with rats and pigs.

5 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:04:01pm

re: #3 BlueCanuck

Why is it that stories like these seem to come from a lot of Catholic run schools across the world? I hope there is a special place in hell for the people that are guilty of such acts.

If they truly believe the Bible, there is.

6 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:05:41pm

Horrible beyond all belief. The cover-up just makes it worse.

7 BlueCanuck  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:05:48pm

re: #2 Fenway_Nation

All the more reason I'm glad my forebears made their way off that craggy bog for the New World.

Ever hear of the "Boys of St. Vincent"?

8 wrenchwench  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:05:54pm

Kudos to the victims who spoke up.

9 Last Mohican  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:05:58pm

This is horrifying. I had no idea.

10 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:06:11pm

re: #5 Dianna

If they truly believe the Bible, there is.

If they did... they wouldn't have in the first place.

11 Baier  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:06:29pm

God bless the separation of church and state.

12 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:07:26pm

Those poor kids...

and to put things in perspective, just think of how bad this would be ina a theocracy

13 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:07:38pm
14 Quodlibetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:08:09pm

I think a similar study - time period, intensity - done into any similarly-sized organisation for the care of children would turn up similarly sickening results. The truly vile thing here is that those who were charged with the children's care were supposed to be bearing the light of the Gospel and the love of God. Instead they behaved like servants of the devil.

Check out Archbishop Vincent Nichols' response. It is well-measured:

Every time there is a single incident of abuse in the Catholic Church it is a scandal.

And I'm glad it's a scandal. I would be very worried if it wasn't a scandal... I hope these things don't happen again but I hope they're never a matter of indifference.

15 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:08:58pm
16 Baier  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:09:13pm

re: #14 Quodlibetarian

I think a similar study - time period, intensity - done into any similarly-sized organisation for the care of children would turn up similarly sickening results.

I very seriously doubt that. I'm sure abuse would be found, but never on this scale.

17 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:09:20pm
Victims of the system have long demanded that the truth of their experiences be documented and made public, so that children in Ireland never endure such suffering again. But most leaders of religious orders have rejected the allegations as exaggerations and lies, and testified to the commission that any abuses were the responsibility of often long-dead individuals.

The abuses may indeed have been the responsibility of long-dead individuals, but I do not see how continued attempts to keep this under a shroud of secrecy will do any good.

These things must be faced directly, whether the individuals are long-dead or not, if anything is to be done to stop it.

18 Captain Cool  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:09:21pm

Lets hope these stories aren't ignored just because the kids were poor, orphaned, or criminals.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:09:44pm

re: #3 BlueCanuck

Why is it that stories like these seem to come from a lot of Catholic run schools across the world? I hope there is a special place in hell for the people that are guilty of such acts.

Trust, a blind belief in the goodness of the hierarchy, intense shame about sexual matters...the faithful can now see the light at the end of the tunnel, but instead of being led by the Church, they too often have to shove her along.

20 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:10:36pm

re: #16 Baier

I very seriously doubt that. I'm sure abuse would be found, but never on this scale.

I don't know. All I know is that - on bad days - I find myself thinking that it might be a good idea just to get rid of the human race and start over.

This is the sort of thing that makes for a bad day.

21 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:10:40pm

I find it appalling, but really have no comment as an atheist ... I will watch to see what LGF's Catholics think they need to do with this new information.

22 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:10:45pm

re: #16 Baier

I very seriously doubt that. I'm sure abuse would be found, but never on this scale.

Agreed. And we don't seem to agree much.

23 bosforus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:11:20pm

250 churches
60 years
30,000 children

= 500 children per year
= 120 cases per church
= 2 cases per year per church

24 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:12:08pm

This was going on here in America and Australia had huge problems too. This was probably going on pretty much all over the world but a lot of countries covered it up. A lot of people lament the demise of Christianity in Europe and want to blame it on atheists. The Church did this to itself and those atheists weren't brainwashed by liberals. They are ex-Christians that left because of stuff like this.

25 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:12:29pm

re: #23 bosforus

A buffet of depravity for the depraved.

26 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:13:00pm

Slightly off topic... Slightly on topic....

Evelyn

With a gentle tug at the heartstrings, Evelyn tells the true story of an imperfect father whose devotion brought much-needed change to rigid Irish law. It's a labor of love for star and coproducer Pierce Brosnan, who brings just the right touch of Everyman charm to his role as Desmond Doyle, a struggling Dublin tradesman, father of three, and chronic pub-crawler whose wife abandons their family the day after Christmas, 1953. Desmond's a loving father who's boyishly irresponsible; Irish law dictates the removal of his children to stern Catholic orphanages, and his battle for custody is aided by two lawyers (Stephen Rea, Aidan Quinn) who seize this opportunity to revolutionize the courts. With straightforward, unobtrusive style, director Bruce Beresford draws fine performances from Brosnan, Julianna Margulies (as a barmaid who inspires Desmond's sobriety), and especially young Sophie Vavasseur in the title role as Desmond's bright, determined daughter. Sentimental without being saccharine, Evelyn is simple, well made, and bursting with genuine Irish spirit.


Not to diminish the horrors of the report. The movie presents a small victory in the battle.

27 Baier  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:13:03pm

re: #22 unrealizedviewpoint

Agreed. And we don't seem to agree much.

It's hard to say what you and I agree on. Sometimes it's hard to get the cut of one's jib in an online forum. We're both here, so probably we agree on quite a bit, just not the hair splitting stuff.

28 ted  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:13:15pm

Tragic. Much suffering by defenseless children.

29 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:13:18pm

Are we having meltdowns already?

30 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:13:30pm

re: #21 Thanos

I find it appalling, but really have no comment as an atheist ... I will watch to see what LGF's Catholics think they need to do with this new information.

The information needs to be published.
The Church needs to confront this head-on, not try to continue to obfuscate and hide.

The Church's tendency to try to hide this stuff, sweep it under the rug, is an affront to every Catholic who tries to live by the rules.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:14:12pm

This has been slowly coming out for a long time. There've been movies, books, documentaries. Good on the Irish government for looking into it so seriously.

32 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:14:18pm

The hardest part for me is that these were society's most vulnerable children to begin with. (Which of course is why they were abused; if you abuse children of parents who are paying attention, you will face retribution very quickly.)

33 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:14:49pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Are we having meltdowns already?

I have no idea. I hope not.

I want to believe that any decent human being would be too horrified to do anything but be furiously upset.

34 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:15:17pm

re: #30 reine.de.tout

The information needs to be published.
The Church needs to confront this head-on, not try to continue to obfuscate and hide.

The Church's tendency to try to hide this stuff,
sweep it under the rug, is an affront to every Catholic who tries to live by the rules.

my exact sentiment

35 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:15:26pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

Are we having meltdowns already?

where?

36 Baier  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:16:23pm

re: #30 reine.de.tout

The information needs to be published.
The Church needs to confront this head-on, not try to continue to obfuscate and hide.

The Church's tendency to try to hide this stuff, sweep it under the rug, is an affront to every Catholic who tries to live by the rules.

I doubt this has to do with people being Catholics, and more to do with people given power and responsibility they ought not have.

37 wrenchwench  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:16:39pm

re: #35 reine.de.tout

where?

Albusteve got deleted.

38 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:16:57pm

re: #35 reine.de.tout

There are a couple potholes upthread. It wasn't that long ago that people would get very angry when the topic of Catholic child abuse came up.

39 Athens Runaway  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:17:01pm

The Catholic Church is also responsible for albino monk hiding the proof that God's only begotten Son hooked up with cheap floozies, and convoluted antimatter bomb plots, dontchaknow.

40 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:17:31pm

Every religious denomination has issues like this. That's why it's essential that there be plenty of accountability within the institutions themselves. From this report, it sounds like accountability mechanisms never were installed, or failed miserably.

41 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:17:39pm

re: #32 EmmmieG

The hardest part for me is that these were society's most vulnerable children to begin with. (Which of course is why they were abused; if you abuse children of parents who are paying attention, you will face retribution very quickly.)

depending on frequency and degree, the perps life is forfeit imo

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:17:41pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

This was going on here in America and Australia had huge problems too. This was probably going on pretty much all over the world but a lot of countries covered it up. A lot of people lament the demise of Christianity in Europe and want to blame it on atheists. The Church did this to itself and those atheists weren't brainwashed by liberals. They are ex-Christians that left because of stuff like this.

I suspect it may still be going on in parts of the world, Africa in particular.

And in America, at least, the Church does not seem able to fully understand how much trust was lost when the abuse scandals began to surface. It's not that American Catholics thought that no priest ever was a sexual abuser. It's that they learned their bishops were actively hiding abuse, and ensuring it would continue.

(Daughter of a devout Catholic here--the 90s were kind of rough.)

43 Rexatosis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:17:42pm

The damage done to Christianity, not just the Catholic Church is incalculable. May those who have done these evil acts rot in hell.

44 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:18:44pm

my apologies Charles...I gotta cool off

45 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:18:47pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

I saw it looked more like LGF rules violations than a melty because of thread topic.

46 alegrias  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:19:10pm

re: #21 Thanos

I find it appalling, but really have no comment as an atheist ... I will watch to see what LGF's Catholics think they need to do with this new information.

* * * * *
Interested Atheist & Secular folks can go after our public schools and state & govt. "juvie" places such as DC's institutions for troubled kids, which the Washington Post's Colbert King routinely reports do horrible things to wards of the state.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:20:08pm

re: #32 EmmmieG

The hardest part for me is that these were society's most vulnerable children to begin with. (Which of course is why they were abused; if you abuse children of parents who are paying attention, you will face retribution very quickly.)

The programs for pregnant teens were reportedly completely horrible. Even middle-class girls who got pregnant in mid-century Ireland were essentially stripped of all social standing.

48 Clemente  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:20:09pm

Comment Rule #4 constrains my reaction to this story.

49 Trubbel  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:20:13pm

Absolutely sickening!

I cannot fathom how the minds of such men work. Tell people how they should behave in a Christian manner during the day, then they rape and beat boys during the night.

We should not condemn everyone because of the actions of some, but then it appears to be so organized and especially so professionally covered up... there is a fundamental evil to the whole mess.

50 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:20:23pm

Nauseating!

51 hellosnackbar  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:21:10pm

That's why secularism and atheism are an accelerating upward trend in Ireland.
Seminary recruitment is at an all time low and the church is now the butt
of comedian's routines.
And I've watched this happen over the last 15 years or so.
Where once the church was effectively an unelected government;they are now a joke.
BTW I live in Ireland

52 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:21:34pm

re: #36 Baier

I doubt this has to do with people being Catholics, and more to do with people given power and responsibility they ought not have.

Couple that with the sure knowledge these folks had that due to their "esteemed" positions within the Church, their actions would be hidden and covered up and there is a recipe for absolute disaster right there.

The problem is that the Church overprotects its religious orders from being scrutinized and held accountable.

53 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:21:39pm

Children, placed in the care of people that should hold human dignity to its highest level, rape and beat the children.
Its far below vile.
My contempt for such scum is beyond mere words.

54 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:22:00pm

re: #48 Clemente

Comment Rule #4 constrains my reaction to this story.

I haven't the foggiest idea how you feel.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

55 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:22:38pm

re: #36 Baier

I doubt this has to do with people being Catholics, and more to do with people given power and responsibility they ought not have.

I beg to differ. The Catholic Church has had a serious, across the board problem with this kind of thing because of a culture of protecting abusers that went on for far too long, and only started to change when it was exposed -- not because of any internal movement toward responsibility. This is different from other child abuse situations because it was system-wide -- not just in Ireland. The cover-ups went all the way to the Vatican.

56 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:22:48pm

It's not about religion, it's about power and the human, all-too-human abuse thereof.

Viz. the infamous "orphanages" in Romania, Bulgaria, etc., all run by "humanistic" atheists.

Just sayin'.

57 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:23:49pm

2,600 pages involving 30,000 children. This report is going to have a massive impact on the Catholic Church who is still reeling from previous and current events. The AP report indicates:

Irish church leaders and religious orders all declined to comment Wednesday, citing the need to read the massive document first. The Vatican also declined to comment.

They better start reading fast and comment on this matter quickly

58 Cato the Elder  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:23:59pm

And secular "reform schools" and homes for "juvenile delinquents" rarely bear a close look, either.

Again, just sayin'.

59 Athens Runaway  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:24:06pm

Unlike more than a few here, I don't blame the church. I blame the people who hide behind the church.

60 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:24:43pm

re: #56 Cato the Elder

It's not about religion, it's about power and the human, all-too-human abuse thereof.

Viz. the infamous "orphanages" in Romania, Bulgaria, etc., all run by "humanistic" atheists.

Just sayin'.

And a point which is good to bring out.
Necessary to keep in mind.

61 leereyno  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:25:24pm

This reminds me a lot of the "Magdalene Laundries" where women were imprisoned and enslaved by the church:

[Link: www.wikinfo.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:25:25pm

re: #59 Athens Runaway

Unlike more than a few here, I don't blame the church. I blame the people who hide behind the church.

I blame the leadership who betrayed the Church.

63 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:25:49pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

I blame the leadership who betrayed the Church.

Yes.

64 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:26:07pm

I'm not Catholic, but I recall having once read a study (re: physical/sexual abuse inside institutions), and it had a hierarchy of factors, and as you added in each additional factor, the likelihood of abuse increased...(unfortunately, I don't recall all those factors, or the order -- but some key factors were things such as "What is the degree of isolation?" (that is, how frequently is the institution visited by outsiders? old folks homes can be isolated in a sense, and the greater the degree of isolation from the outside world, the greater the chance of abuse of patients; "Can those institutionalized -- patients/students/inmates/children -- communicate concerns?" so if, for example, it's a prison, and an inmate makes a complaint, will the complaint be investiaged? taken seriously or written off as a "lie"? particuarlarly vulnerable are patients who may have communication disorders -- dementia, can't speak, paralyzed, etc. if even they wished to communicate, can't do so...) And then, of course, there has to be a mechanism in place for complaints to be aired, investiaged and acted upon...and the problems rectified, if need be...

65 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:26:14pm

from the report:

It cited numerous examples where school managers told police about child abusers who were not church officials — but never did this when one of their own had committed the crime.

"Contrary to the congregations' claims that the recidivist nature of sexual offending was not understood, it is clear from the documented cases that they were aware of the propensity for abusers to re-abuse," it said.

Religious orders were chiefly concerned about preventing scandal, not the danger to children, it said.

Keep in mind some of the cases reported were probably inmate on inmate, just as in the prison systems mentioned above.

66 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:26:21pm

And they try to say 'Father Ted' gives the Irish priesthood a bad name. This is truly shocking.

67 Athens Runaway  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:27:35pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

I blame the leadership who betrayed the Church.

I agree.

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:28:05pm

At one point, a lot of people in my father's parish stopped putting money in the collection. They'd go to Father and offer to pay the electric bill, or buy new basketballs for the school, or write a check to the food bank, but they were afraid to give the archdiocese cash, for fear it would be used to pay legal expenses for scum.

Bad situation.

69 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:28:08pm

The Priests, Bishops, Cardinals who covered it all up should be imprisoned.

70 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:29:38pm

re: #58 Cato the Elder

Sure there are always stories from teachers or boy scout leaders, etc. But there was a very systemic problem that the Church tried to hide. It went on for at least 50 years and probably much longer. It only went on so long because they actively hid the problem.

71 hellosnackbar  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:30:01pm

re#55 Charles
You are absolutely right.This subject although reasonably well known was
never dealt with until relatively recently.
The biggest shocker was the number of clergy involved and the widespread nature of the abuse.

72 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:31:04pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

probably much longer

probably much longer

/humans tend to be humans ... (present company excepted, of course)

73 Dianna  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:31:59pm

I'm out. I'm going to go home and sit in a very hot bath and hope to stop feeling cold and sick.

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:32:37pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Sure there are always stories from teachers or boy scout leaders, etc. But there was a very systemic problem that the Church tried to hide. It went on for at least 50 years and probably much longer. It only went on so long because they actively hid the problem.

Right on the money. When problems came to their attention, their concern was to protect the Church's reputation, and the perpetrators. Not the victims.

I'm a teacher--I know that any profession that works with children attracts pedophiles, and any profession that works with helpless people--kids, prisoners, the elderly--attracts sadists. You can't always prevent them getting in, but when you identify them you can damn well get them out.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:33:11pm

re: #73 Dianna

I'm out. I'm going to go home and sit in a very hot bath and hope to stop feeling cold and sick.

Big hug.

76 bosforus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:33:14pm

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
Isaiah 47:10

77 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:33:17pm

Found the report:

"Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse"

Executive Summary (PDFs)

[Link: www.childabusecommission.com...]

78 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:33:48pm

re: #71 hellosnackbar

re#55 Charles
You are absolutely right.This subject although reasonably well known was
never dealt with until relatively recently.
The biggest shocker was the number of clergy involved and the widespread nature of the abuse.

Considering the size of the Church, # of members, # of churches, the abuse can be considered minuscule in comparison. Regardless, the Priests, Bishops, Cardinals responsible for the cover-up should be imprisoned.

79 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:33:51pm

re: #72 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm talking about the systemic child abuse. There was a culture in the seminaries and in the priesthood of child abuse. I can't really say how long that lasted or when it started but we know that most of these problems (at least in modern times) seemed to start in the 50's. Although I'm sure it went back farther than that.

80 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:34:00pm

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

I blame the leadership who betrayed the Church.

They betrayed more than just the Church, They betrayed the children entrusted to them.
So very sad.

81 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:34:19pm

re: #73 Dianna

I'm out. I'm going to go home and sit in a very hot bath and hope to stop feeling cold and sick.

You're not well?
{Dianna}
Drive carefully

82 DaddyG  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:34:27pm

Disclaimer: I am not Catholic but I am a member of a large organized religion. My wife also suffered as a child at the hands of an abuser in her own family (not affiliated with a church).

I am keenly aware of the ingenuity and even charisma that abusers can have. There is no large organization that serves youth that is not a target for abusers and pedaphiles- not even my own faith. They can be very charming and convincing to leaders of the organization who would rather believe a troubled youth is making up stories than actually being abused by the person who is supposed to be a responsible caregiver.

What makes this even more tragic is that these were kids who were already at risk and caretakers who supposedly had ecclesiastical authority and inspiration. " It is better that a millstone be hung around their necks and they be drowned in the sea than they offend one of these little ones."

How will a child see a loving God if his representatives are more concerned with the image of the church than living the truth?

This makes me weep.

83 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:35:00pm

re: #69 unrealizedviewpoint

The Priests, Bishops, Cardinals who covered it all up should be imprisoned.

I went to Catholic School...This is a painful topic for the church they keep hiding under the basket...
I will say this..We had a couple great priests..Just wonderful men..
I had some on going issues with nuns...Things I would classify as abuse and inappropriate talk to a child..I should have talked to my mom..But that bitch scared me..
So snap..It's like that...

84 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:35:39pm

re: #78 unrealizedviewpoint

Considering the size of the Church, # of members, # of churches, the abuse can be considered minuscule in comparison.


I'm pretty sure that's not true. When I looked into that claim it seemed to come from some very questionable math/statistics from one of Ann Coulter's books.

85 SummerSong  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:36:02pm

Child abusers always seem to forget that children grow up and do not forget who did what to harm them.

86 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:36:17pm

This is extra bad if true.

If it is true, get it out in the open, admit it, fix it as best as possible - any fix will be inadequate of course.


I hope Benedict deals with this publicly, and soon.

87 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:36:47pm

HTML Version

Chapter 6
Conclusions

88 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:37:21pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

I'm talking about the systemic child abuse. There was a culture in the seminaries and in the priesthood of child abuse. I can't really say how long that lasted or when it started but we know that most of these problems (at least in modern times) seemed to start in the 50's. Although I'm sure it went back farther than that.

Systemic abuse is what I was referring to as well.
Also, Cato's comments above regarding it being a human-nature problem.

Human nature is a remarkable constant -- in the larger sense, changing only glacially.

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:37:47pm

re: #86 Ojoe

This is extra bad if true.

If it is true, get it out in the open, admit it, fix it as best as possible - any fix will be inadequate of course.


I hope Benedict deals with this publicly, and soon.


I fear there's very little doubt it's true. This is no fly-by-night thing, and the Irish public has been following it closely for years as it emerged.

Benedict will get major points with a lot of people if he addresses it honestly, and with sorrow.

90 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:39:13pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

I fear there's very little doubt it's true. This is no fly-by-night thing, and the Irish public has been following it closely for years as it emerged.

Tragic. Tragic.

91 joshb  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:39:31pm

re: #55 Charles

I beg to differ. The Catholic Church has had a serious, across the board problem with this kind of thing because of a culture of protecting abusers that went on for far too long, and only started to change when it was exposed -- not because of any internal movement toward responsibility. This is different from other child abuse situations because it was system-wide -- not just in Ireland. The cover-ups went all the way to the Vatican.

It did, and these people deserve to rot. It should be noted that much of the coverup involved priests/bishops effectively blackmailing each other -- if the (say) bishop brought charges against the priest, then the bishop risked getting exposed for his own past sexual activities (pederastic or otherwise).

92 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:39:33pm

pride cometh before a fall...that said it will be very interesting to see how the church works with the Irish feds to seal the deal here...anything short of complete resignation to civil authorities is contempt and should be treated as such...no one, no priest and no church is above the law....no deals, no mercy...get it done Ireland

93 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:39:58pm

re: #78 unrealizedviewpoint

Ah, now I remember the problem with her statistics. She looked at the % of priests who were pedos and ignored the number of children they molested. They had far more victims because they church continued to allow them access to children. This is different from a baseball coach who would have been fired after molesting 2 or 3 kids. Some of these individual priests had hundreds of victims over a lifetime career.

94 Mr. E. Train  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:40:21pm

One crime multiplied by another.

Pedo's will gravitate to places that afford them access to their chosen prey. That these creeps were in these places isnt so surprising.

The 'force multiplier' if you will is that those in power above the pedo's chose to protect the organization rather than uphold their core values. They chose to protect the system rather than protect life, the innocent and the truth.

This is why my faith is practiced at home. I can barely stand myself. I sure dont want to be associated with any other freaks.

95 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:40:38pm

The ongoing child abuse in the church is directly related to how the church deals with the issue.

They have created an environment where perpetrators have little to fear. They know the institution will sweep it under the rug- and they know they can intimidate the parents of abused kids in these tight knit religious communities.

The same has proven true in institutions and communities outside the Catholic Church.

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:41:08pm

I teach at a Catholic high school, and one of the things that really impressed me about them is that at the beginning of the year, someone gave a talk on the history of our school's order, and discussed the fact that new research suggests there was some abuse going on in the early years.

No cover-up behavior around here. And when we found out last year there was a problem with a lay teacher's behavior toward the kids, the cops were called that same hour.

97 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:41:33pm

HTML Versions of the Report:

Executive Summary

The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse was established in 2000 with functions including the investigation of abuse of children in institutions in the State. It was dependent on people giving evidence which they did in large numbers. The Commission expresses its gratitude to all those who participated and contributed with their testimony and documents. The witnesses who came to the Confidential and the Investigation Committees ensured that the Inquiry had sufficient information to investigate the difficult issues that it was mandated to explore. The Commission was impressed by the dignity, courage and fortitude of witnesses who endeavoured to recall events that had happened many years ago...

Commission Report (Complete)

98 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:43:47pm

re: #95 researchok

The ongoing child abuse in the church is directly related to how the church deals with the issue.

They have created an environment where perpetrators have little to fear. They know the institution will sweep it under the rug- and they know they can intimidate the parents of abused kids in these tight knit religious communities.

The same has proven true in institutions and communities outside the Catholic Church.

if that's the case then the church is nothing more than a criminal enterprise and those parishes or whatever you call the 'Families' should be shut down, the perps imprisoned and the property sold to pay unheard of fines

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:44:24pm

re: #95 researchok

The ongoing child abuse in the church is directly related to how the church deals with the issue.

They have created an environment where perpetrators have little to fear. They know the institution will sweep it under the rug- and they know they can intimidate the parents of abused kids in these tight knit religious communities.

I will say that I think that environment is increasingly over, at least in the U.S. Catholics are mad as hell, and not going to take it any more, and the children growing up now have been educated about how to keep themselves safe. What breaks the system is when a kid tells his dad, and his dad calls the cops.

100 Nevergiveup  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:44:36pm

Last update - 23:39 20/05/2009

UN: Highly unlikely Hezbollah is rearming in south Lebanon

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Give me a freak en break?

101 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:44:37pm

re: #76 bosforus

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
Isaiah 47:10

Matthew 19:13-15;
Then there were brought to him little children that he might lay his hands on them and pray; but the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

I think abuse would fall under "hindering."

102 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:45:52pm

re: #92 albusteve

The names in the report are all blanked out, anon, it was part of the deal in prepping the report. Perpetrators and victims are named only with pseudonyms.

103 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:46:50pm

re: #100 Nevergiveup

Last update - 23:39 20/05/2009

UN: Highly unlikely Hezbollah is rearming in south Lebanon

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Give me a freak en break?

I wonder if that's the opinion of the UN higher-ups, or the blue-helmets on the ground.

heh

104 DaddyG  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:46:52pm

Ignorant question here; How much institutional control and knowledge did Catholic leadership (all the way to the pope) have over these institutions? Was this a whole organization.covering or a bad batch of apples keeping their activities covered?

105 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:47:09pm

re: #100 Nevergiveup

Last update - 23:39 20/05/2009

UN: Highly unlikely Hezbollah is rearming in south Lebanon

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Give me a freak en break?

These are parts for a water purification plant.

106 bosforus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:47:16pm

re: #101 jcm

107 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:48:03pm

I was brought up Catholic. The Jesuits had me through high school, even though I was fully agnostic by then. I have doctrinal issues with the Catholics, but never was there ever a situation where corporal punishment was administered in our schools and never was there ever a hint of impropriety between a priest and a student.

This is not a shock, though. After reading what took place in Boston with the dioceses and Fr. Geoghan, I am not surprised that this took place. Someone once asked me what it would take for me to come back to the Catholic faith. I replied, "For Cardinal Law to be extradited from the Vatican back to Boston to appear before the grand jury." I guess I'll be waiting for a while.

108 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:48:17pm

re: #102 Thanos

The names in the report are all blanked out, anon, it was part of the deal in prepping the report. Perpetrators and victims are named only with pseudonyms.

I can understand not using real name for the victims, but sort of surprised that the Perpetrators are not named.... then again, I am not.

109 alegrias  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:48:37pm

It's awful that scoundrels take refuge educating children, like William Ayers, the Weatherman Underground founder, now considered a "respected" educator.

Parents and guardians are entirely too trusting of many institutions without knowing WHO is teaching their children, or spending time on the premises and asking their children about these ugly facts.

Is it any wonder people homeschool rather than entrust their most precious assets, their innocent children, to strangers?

(in our family's case, it was the protestant organist who was the perv)

110 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:48:48pm

re: #101 jcm

I think abuse would fall under "hindering."

Politely put.
Politely agree with.

/*biting tongue*

111 Throbert McGee  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:48:53pm

I'm waiting to see whether the Vatican will try the "Clearly this happened because the Church was much too tolerant of homosexuality" defense.

(Again.)

112 bosforus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:49:14pm

re: #101 jcm

I think abuse would fall under "hindering."


The ghost post strikes again!
Let me try that again: Most definitely.

113 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:49:25pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

I will say that I think that environment is increasingly over, at least in the U.S. Catholics are mad as hell, and not going to take it any more, and the children growing up now have been educated about how to keep themselves safe. What breaks the system is when a kid tells his dad, and his dad calls the cops.

I hope you are right about this.

114 Mad Mullah  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:49:30pm

I believe that one day in the future, maybe hundreds or perhaps a thousand years or more from now, future societies are going to look back and view religion, all kinds of religion, as something primitive and ridiculous that a great many people partook in. As mankind progresses and people generally become smarter and gains increased knowledge and awareness, more people will shun religion for the scam that it is. I think that religion does more bad than good. Some are worse than others, but they're all ridiculous.

115 see bs  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:49:35pm

As a practicing Catholic, I am saddened and ashamed that this was allowed to happen. This needs to be exposed. I just hope that blame is not passed to Catholics that actually make a positive difference in the world.

Kinda ot...
As a liberal Catholic.. (Hate using that word to describe me) I chose to not follow certain teaching/aspects of my faith due to various reasons.

116 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:49:36pm

re: #102 Thanos

The names in the report are all blanked out, anon, it was part of the deal in prepping the report. Perpetrators and victims are named only with pseudonyms.

it figures...in my world, if found guilty, the abusers, beaters and rapists would have their pictures printed on milk boxes, at the very least...they deserve the harshest treatment there is under the law...imprisonment is too good imo

117 Bob Dillon  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:49:38pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

I'm talking about the systemic child abuse. There was a culture in the seminaries and in the priesthood of child abuse. I can't really say how long that lasted or when it started but we know that most of these problems (at least in modern times) seemed to start in the 50's. Although I'm sure it went back farther than that.

I was sent to a Catholic boarding school in the late 40s. For whatever reason a nun took it upon herself to do physical violence on me whenever she disapproved of my actions.

After multiple beatings over several months with other nuns having to pull her off of me ... she disappeared. I begged my grandparents to take me and my sisters back home - they had a hard time believing the abuse we told them about.

There were some strange gals running around as nuns.

118 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:51:29pm

re: #108 DEZes

I can understand not using real name for the victims, but sort of surprised that the Perpetrators are not named.... then again, I am not.

Here's some of the methodology involved:

Chapter 2
Methodology

Ensured complete confidentiality in relation to information provided to the Committee
Maintained confidentiality of witnesses in relation to both their identity and their evidence
Provided an appropriate setting for witnesses to give their evidence in confidence
Established clear liaison and communication procedures
Was accessible to witnesses who were unable or did not wish to travel to Dublin
Allowed for the recording, storing, coding and retrieving of 1,090 files of evidence.

...

Exceptions to confidentiality

2.08Witnesses who chose to give their evidence to the Committee were, subject to the following four exceptions, assured complete confidentiality and their allegations were not investigated. The Committee was legally obliged to disclose information obtained by it either where disclosure was necessary to:

Perform its functions under the Act
Prevent the continuance of an act or omission constituting a serious offence (by making a report to the Garda Síochana)
Prevent, reduce or remove a substantial risk to life, or prevent the continued abuse of a child by making a report to designated persons9 or
Comply with an order of the High Court.10

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:51:45pm

re: #104 DaddyG

Ignorant question here; How much institutional control and knowledge did Catholic leadership (all the way to the pope) have over these institutions? Was this a whole organization.covering or a bad batch of apples keeping their activities covered?

Knowledge is hard to prove. Institutional control--within the priesthood, it's almost absolute.

Bernard Law, though, is now Archpriest of the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome. If I had been Pope, he would be cleaning the restrooms at Santa Maria Maggiore, except that I bet that the people who do so think of it as an honor, and I wouldn't want to take anything away from them.

120 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:51:54pm

#118 focuses on the witnesses.

121 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:52:18pm

re: #85 SummerSong

Child abusers always seem to forget that children grow up and do not forget who did what to harm them.

What's even worse is that victims of physical and sexual abuse in turn perpetrate it on others when they get older. It can be a vicious cycle that takes generations to stop. Some of the victims of this haven't been born yet.

122 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:52:51pm

re: #105 jcm

These are parts for a water purification plant.

Close, but no cigar.
It's the rear end of a motorized dowsing rod.
Notice how the business end is pointed toward the ground?
Agricultural development is proceeding.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:53:00pm

re: #111 Throbert McGee

I'm waiting to see whether the Vatican will try the "Clearly this happened because the Church was much too tolerant of homosexuality" defense.

(Again.)

Of course they will--because Ireland in the 1950s was a positive hotbed of homosexual-tolerating.

124 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:53:22pm

re: #113 reine.de.tout

I hope you are right about this.

Me too.

125 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:53:24pm

Mother Theresa must be rolling over in her grave.

126 WindHorse  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:54:05pm

organized religion has always sucked, and always will.

127 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:54:35pm

re: #121 MandyManners

I had not even thought of that, I feel worse now.

128 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:54:46pm

re: #110 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Politely put.
Politely agree with.

/*biting tongue*

Mines about bit off.....

Physical abuse hits close to home.

Youngest son was four months when we got him. With a long list of injuries. We've help other foster kids heal physically, and hopefully a little bit mentally.

129 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:54:49pm

*crickets*, WH

130 SixDegrees  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:55:06pm

re: #55 Charles

I beg to differ. The Catholic Church has had a serious, across the board problem with this kind of thing because of a culture of protecting abusers that went on for far too long, and only started to change when it was exposed -- not because of any internal movement toward responsibility. This is different from other child abuse situations because it was system-wide -- not just in Ireland. The cover-ups went all the way to the Vatican.

True. But just yesterday, this story about abuse of special-needs children in federally-sponsored programs was all over the news. There are unpleasant parallels between the two stories.

Unfortunately, the Catholic situation apparently avoided putting in place any sort of oversight, despite the institutional nature of this program being an obvious magnet for child abusers. And when allegations came to light, they buried them instead of investigating them and dragging the perpetrators out into the light.

131 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:55:27pm

re: #121 MandyManners

What's even worse is that victims of physical and sexual abuse in turn perpetrate it on others when they get older. It can be a vicious cycle that takes generations to stop. Some of the victims of this haven't been born yet.

yes...it is very insidious and multi generational...I'm seething and have lost all respect for this mob as a legitimate church....it's a multi billion dollar scam

132 SummerSong  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:55:28pm

re: #121 MandyManners

What's even worse is that victims of physical and sexual abuse in turn perpetrate it on others when they get older. It can be a vicious cycle that takes generations to stop. Some of the victims of this haven't been born yet.

Not all victims grow up to victimize, though I understand your point.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:56:01pm

re: #126 WindHorse

organized religion has always sucked, and always will.

Try praying at an Orthodox synagogue. There's no organization to speak of.

134 debutaunt  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:56:18pm

re: #127 DEZes

I had not even thought of that, I feel worse now.

Child abuse really is the 'gift' that keeps giving for generations.

135 ihateronpaul  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:56:30pm

Remind me again why people like sean hannity support "capital punishment"?

there is a slippery slope from spanking (which has disturbing sexual overtones) to horrifying abuse such as this.

136 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:56:31pm

re: #128 jcm

Mines about bit off.....

Physical abuse hits close to home.

Youngest son was four months when we got him. With a long list of injuries. We've help other foster kids heal physically, and hopefully a little bit mentally.

I knew it was.
/didn't have to "figure it was" at all.

137 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:56:32pm

re: #121 MandyManners

What's even worse is that victims of physical and sexual abuse in turn perpetrate it on others when they get older. It can be a vicious cycle that takes generations to stop. Some of the victims of this haven't been born yet.

I had some issues with nuns as a child..If I told you the stories you'd tell me no fucking way...But i swear to God are true...
That is why when we had children I held them close to my heart..taught them kindness and even spoiled them a little too much..
That is love..I think..

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:57:12pm

re: #135 ihateronpaul

Remind me again why people like sean hannity support "capital punishment"?

there is a slippery slope from spanking (which has disturbing sexual overtones) to horrifying abuse such as this.

I think you might mean corporal punishment?

139 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:58:29pm

re: #115 see bs

As a practicing Catholic, I am saddened and ashamed that this was allowed to happen. This needs to be exposed. I just hope that blame is not passed to Catholics that actually make a positive difference in the world.

Kinda ot...
As a liberal Catholic.. (Hate using that word to describe me) I chose to not follow certain teaching/aspects of my faith due to various reasons.


Am not Catholic, but have family members who are Catholic. They make a difference in the world and will be appalled that others in their faith committed such sins.

140 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:58:44pm

The only problems with the catholic church I had growing up were minor ones with the occasional slap-happy nun. Different story, it seems, for those unfortunate people brought up within the church's institutions.

141 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:59:45pm

re: #130 SixDegrees

True. But just yesterday, this story about abuse of special-needs children in federally-sponsored programs was all over the news. There are unpleasant parallels between the two stories

Fully expected within any bureaucracy whose goal is perpetuation and expansion, whether govt, cult or religion.

142 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:00:02pm

re: #127 DEZes

I had not even thought of that, I feel worse now.

I'm sorrry.

143 ihateronpaul  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:00:27pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

yes, wrong word usage, same stupid idea.

144 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:00:47pm

re: #131 albusteve

yes...it is very insidious and multi generational...I'm seething and have lost all respect for this mob as a legitimate church....it's a multi billion dollar scam

Instead of seething, have you thought about praying for healing and peace for the victims?

145 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:01:25pm

re: #117 Bobibutu

Sorry to hear that. It must have been terrifying.

146 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:01:27pm

re: #132 SummerSong

Not all victims grow up to victimize, though I understand your point.

Even if it's just 10 per cent, that's a lot of future victims. Heck, even if just one per cent. Just one person, even.

147 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:01:36pm

re: #142 MandyManners

I'm sorrry.

Dont be sorry, it needed to be thought about.
{MandyManners}

148 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:02:33pm

re: #135 ihateronpaul

Remind me again why people like sean hannity support "capital punishment"?

there is a slippery slope from spanking (which has disturbing sexual overtones) to horrifying abuse such as this.

Good grief. Only to a pervert.

149 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:02:48pm

re: #144 MandyManners

Instead of seething, have you thought about praying for healing and peace for the victims?

no...I want justice and I want it now...God would never listen to me anyway

150 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:02:53pm

re: #137 HoosierHoops

I had some issues with nuns as a child..If I told you the stories you'd tell me no fucking way...But i swear to God are true...
That is why when we had children I held them close to my heart..taught them kindness and even spoiled them a little too much..
That is love..I think..

They'll pass that down, Hoops.

151 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:03:04pm

re: #135 ihateronpaul

Remind me again why people like sean hannity support "capital punishment"?

there is a slippery slope from spanking (which has disturbing sexual overtones) to horrifying abuse such as this.

I swatted my kid's behind when he was young - can count the times on one hand. There was nothing sexual about it at all. Please.

152 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:03:56pm

re: #125 rightymouse

Mother Teressa was pretty imperfect too. When we lived in India in the 80's her hospices were pretty notorious.

153 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:03:56pm

re: #148 MandyManners

Good grief. Only to a pervert.

Should'a whacked him Mandy. :)

154 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:04:42pm
155 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:04:49pm

re: #117 Bobibutu

That's bad. Makes me wonder how the 'slap happy' nuns I dismissed as a minor problem would act in a situation where they have, in a sense, 'captives'.

156 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:04:54pm

re: #149 albusteve

no...I want justice and I want it now...God would never listen to me anyway

It's your choice to give prayer a chance or not.

One of the things you can pray about is that there WILL be justice here on Earth, in our time. There will be on Judgment Day.

157 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:04:56pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

Mother Teressa was pretty imperfect too. When we lived in India in the 80's her hospices were pretty notorious.

for what?....there is some good Mel Brooks in there!

158 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:05:41pm

re: #153 unrealizedviewpoint

Should'a whacked him Mandy. :)

sweet moneky fritters freakin doctor pepper all over

159 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:05:53pm

re: #149 albusteve

no...I want justice and I want it now...God would never listen to me anyway

I shouldn't be so presumptuous, but ... you might consider the possibility that he does.

/said with respect ... now shutting my mouth

160 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:05:58pm

re: #156 MandyManners

It's your choice to give prayer a chance or not.

One of the things you can pray about is that there WILL be justice here on Earth, in our time. There will be on Judgment Day.

good point I suppose...

161 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:07:15pm

re: #149 albusteve

no...I want justice and I want it now...God would never listen to me anyway

God always listens, and always answers/ ;-)

162 SixDegrees  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:07:34pm

re: #151 rightymouse

I swatted my kid's behind when he was young - can count the times on one hand. There was nothing sexual about it at all. Please.

I disagree with the sexual connection. In these cases, it is much more similar to rape - it's an attempt to exert control over the victim, giving the perpetrator a sense of power. If there's sexual gratification involved, it acts as a reinforcement, not a motivator.

163 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:07:49pm

re: #158 MandyManners

sweet moneky fritters freakin doctor pepper all over

I think I've gone dyslexic. What?

164 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:08:00pm

re: #152 Killgore Trout

Mother Teressa was pretty imperfect too. When we lived in India in the 80's her hospices were pretty notorious.

Notorious for what?

165 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:08:18pm

re: #154 Killgore Trout

On a lighter note....
"Spider-cat" scales two-storey brick wall - video

that's exactly why I love a good cat....straight up a brick WALL!

166 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:09:03pm

re: #158 MandyManners

sweet moneky fritters freakin doctor pepper all over

Say that three times real fast. ;)

167 DaddyG  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:09:14pm

Thanks for the responses to my questions and comments. I'm on a blackberry so it is difficult to respond to each good one or upding.

Blaming religion as ignorant superstition is an awfully broad brush. However there is a very high correlation between the people I know who are embittered toward my faith and those who experienced abuse at the hands of a family member professing to believe in said faith.

It is hypocracy of the worst kind to profess godliness and then commit evil acts. Hiding those acts under a cloak of religion or parental authority compound the abuse exponentially. It does have dire consequences for generations beyond the abused even if the abuse is halted.

168 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:09:32pm

re: #166 DEZes

Say that three times real fast. ;)

WITHOUT using copy/paste

169 SummerSong  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:10:10pm

re: #146 MandyManners

Even if it's just 10 per cent, that's a lot of future victims. Heck, even if just one per cent. Just one person, even.

I know. :(

170 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:10:38pm

re: #98 albusteve

if that's the case then the church is nothing more than a criminal enterprise and those parishes or whatever you call the 'Families' should be shut down, the perps imprisoned and the property sold to pay unheard of fines

It's not just the Catholic Church.

Jewish schools and seminaries have experienced the same problem and in many instances, have responded in knee jerk fashion, sweeping the problem under the rug.

It's not so much a matter of deliberate criminal enterprise. The problem is cultural- that is, religious organizations do not want to face the issues so they go into denial mode.

171 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:11:00pm

re: #157 albusteve

I'll try to put this delicately but suffering was part of her philosophy. Her hospices refused to accept pain medication donated from the US embassy. The locals had a very unflattering nickname for her and only the most desperate individuals without family would find up in the clinics. Despite all her fundraising they were very sparse operations. Most of the money she raised went to fund convents for her order elsewhere in the world.

172 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:11:04pm

re: #161 Jimmah


well then I'm covered...there are few people more irreverent than me I'd wager

173 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:11:13pm

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19: 13-14

174 iLikeCandy  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:11:26pm

What causes this? The institution? Yes. The doctrine too? I'm an ex-Catholic and I don't know.

175 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:12:09pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

link please

176 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:12:25pm

I gotta' get dinner on the table.

See you Lizards later. Go hug your kids. Your dogs. Your cats. Protect the week. Kick evil's ass.

177 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:12:39pm

re: #173 MandyManners

Did you spew Soda?

178 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:12:44pm
179 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:12:53pm

re: #174 iLikeCandy

What causes this? The institution? Yes. The doctrine too? I'm an ex-Catholic and I don't know.

EVIL!

180 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:12:55pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

I will say that I think that environment is increasingly over, at least in the U.S. Catholics are mad as hell, and not going to take it any more, and the children growing up now have been educated about how to keep themselves safe. What breaks the system is when a kid tells his dad, and his dad calls the cops.

That is an appropriate response, of course.

As I just noted, it is the cultural issues that have to be addressed.

Religious organizations perceive the dealing with a problem as an addmission of weakness, whereas in fact, dealing with the matter publicly and swiftly is an act of strength.

181 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:12:58pm

re: #170 researchok

It's not just the Catholic Church.

Jewish schools and seminaries have experienced the same problem and in many instances, have responded in knee jerk fashion, sweeping the problem under the rug.

It's not so much a matter of deliberate criminal enterprise. The problem is cultural- that is, religious organizations do not want to face the issues so they go into denial mode.

then take down the Jew molesters...that part of if it does not interest me beyond using the church for cover...

182 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:13:04pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

... suffering was part of her philosophy ...

Hmmmm.

/not disagreeing ... I merely didn't know that, but do know some history

183 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:13:47pm

re: #175 unrealizedviewpoint

link please

IIRC, he lived there, growing up
/just mentioning

184 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:13:49pm

re: #135 ihateronpaul

Remind me again why people like sean hannity support "capital punishment"?

there is a slippery slope from spanking (which has disturbing sexual overtones) to horrifying abuse such as this.

No there's not. I got spanked when I was a kid (and deep down I knew I deserved it). And I'm only slightly deranged for it...//
I spanked my kids when they deserved it. I can count on one hand how many times I had to do it but I absolutely reserve the right as a parent to have done it. And my kids are normal, wonderfully well balanced adults. And conservative by the way.
Nothing sexual about it in either case.

185 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:14:08pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

I'll try to put this delicately but suffering was part of her philosophy. Her hospices refused to accept pain medication donated from the US embassy. The locals had a very unflattering nickname for her and only the most desperate individuals without family would find up in the clinics. Despite all her fundraising they were very sparse operations. Most of the money she raised went to fund convents for her order elsewhere in the world.

interesting...you will probably get hammered for blasphemy you know....but I believe you

186 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:14:24pm

re: #170 researchok

I clicked on your blue and found this.
funny/scary

187 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:14:49pm

re: #176 MandyManners

I gotta' get dinner on the table.

See you Lizards later. Go hug your kids. Your dogs. Your cats. Protect the week. Kick evil's ass.

Do I really gotta hug a cat?!

188 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:15:29pm

re: #157 albusteve

I won't embed the video because some people might find it offensive but here's the link....
Hell's Angel: Mother Teresa by Christopher Hitchens
It is Hitch so you can expect his usual anti-religious stuff but the essence of what he points is more or less correct.

189 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:15:42pm

re: #163 unrealizedviewpoint

It's some sort of code. Some twisted dadaist code.

Either that or she's typing in tongues.////

190 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:15:49pm

My kindle just got here, I'm out for awhile...

191 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:15:59pm

re: #176 MandyManners

I gotta' get dinner on the table.

See you Lizards later. Go hug your kids. Your dogs. Your cats. Protect the week. Kick evil's ass.

Blessed are the cheesemakers......
/

192 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:16:06pm

re: #162 SixDegrees

I disagree with the sexual connection. In these cases, it is much more similar to rape - it's an attempt to exert control over the victim, giving the perpetrator a sense of power. If there's sexual gratification involved, it acts as a reinforcement, not a motivator.

Abuse of any kind, including rape, has little or nothing to do with sexual gratification. Power and Control. Agreed.

193 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:16:11pm

re: #177 DEZes

You here?

194 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:16:26pm

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Do I really gotta hug a cat?!

YES!

195 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:16:37pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

I won't embed the video because some people might find it offensive but here's the link....
Hell's Angel: Mother Teresa by Christopher Hitchens
It is Hitch so you can expect his usual anti-religious stuff but the essence of what he points is more or less correct.

thanks...Hitchens does not bother me...he adds color to a usually air tight point of view

196 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:16:55pm

re: #193 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You here?

Yessiry.

197 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:16:58pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

Thanks -- for the data and the messenger's context

198 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:17:04pm

re: #181 albusteve

then take down the Jew molesters...that part of if it does not interest me beyond using the church for cover...

I couldn't agree more.

No organizations are immune, be they religious or social.

It's the culture of denial and shame that must be addressed.

199 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:17:10pm

re: #176 MandyManners

Protect the week.

And seize the day!///

200 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:17:24pm

re: #183 pre-Boomer Marine brat

IIRC, he lived there, growing up
/just mentioning

Forgive me. I want more.

201 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:17:59pm

re: #186 unrealizedviewpoint

I clicked on your blue and found this.
funny/scary

And true.

202 debutaunt  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:18:22pm

"Hard drive with sensitive government data lost."

Is Sandy Berger setting up a website?

203 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:18:36pm
204 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:18:47pm

re: #170 researchok

It's not just the Catholic Church.

Jewish schools and seminaries have experienced the same problem and in many instances, have responded in knee jerk fashion, sweeping the problem under the rug.

It's not so much a matter of deliberate criminal enterprise. The problem is cultural- that is, religious organizations do not want to face the issues so they go into denial mode.

In the Orthodox world, I swear, we're moving slower than the Vatican in some parts.

205 ThnkngOutLoud  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:18:50pm

May 20, 2009
This just in from the Catholic League (Bill Donohue)

HYSTERIA OVER IRISH CLERGY ABUSE
After nine years of investigation, Ireland’s Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse has published its findings. More than 30,000 children, most of them delinquents, passed through one or more of Ireland’s Catholic-run institutions from the 1920s through the 1980s.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the report today:
Reuters is reporting that “Irish Priests Beat, Raped Children,” yet the report does not justify this wild and irresponsible claim. Four types of abuse are noted: physical, sexual, neglect and emotional. Physical abuse includes “being kicked”; neglect includes “inadequate heating”; and emotional abuse includes “lack of attachment and affection.” Not nice, to be sure, but hardly draconian, especially given the time line: fully 82 percent of the incidents took place before 1970. As the New York Times noted, “many of them [are] now more than 70 years old.” And quite frankly, corporal punishment was not exactly unknown in many homes during these times, and this is doubly true when dealing with miscreants.

Regarding sexual abuse, “kissing,” and “non-contact including voyeurism” (e.g., what it labels as “inappropriate sexual talk”) make the grade as constituting sexual abuse. Moreover, one-third of the cases involved “inappropriate fondling and contact.” None of this is defensible, but none of it qualifies as rape. Rape, on the other hand, constituted 12 percent of the cases. As for the charge that “Irish Priests” were responsible, some of the abuse was carried out by lay persons, much of it was done by Brothers, and about 12 percent of the abusers were priests (most of whom were not rapists).

The Irish report suffers from conflating minor instances of abuse with serious ones, thus demeaning the latter. When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower. They think about rape.

By cheapening rape, the report demeans the big victims. But, of course, there is a huge market for such distortions, especially when the accused is the Catholic Church.

Susan A. Fani
Director of Communications
The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
450 Seventh Avenue
New York, NY 10123
[no phone numbers allowed]
[no phone numbers allowed] (fax)
Catholic League lg@catholicleague.org>

206 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:18:55pm

re: #194 DEZes

YES!

LOL!

207 Throbert McGee  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:20:20pm

re: #135 ihateronpaul

spanking (which has disturbing sexual overtones)

Sheesh. The fact that some Penthouse Forum readers may eroticize spanking -- because sometimes a 53-year-old accountant who's been a filthy, nasty boy just needs to be vigorously spanked by his haughty governess, Magritte -- doesn't mean that the practice is intrinsically sexual.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:20:59pm

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Do I really gotta hug a cat?!

No, you can hug extra dogs. Trade with a cat person.

209 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:21:13pm

re: #197 pre-Boomer Marine brat

When I first saw that video a few years ago I didn't know what to think. I asked my Mom (who's Catholic by the way) and worked in the Embassy in Delhi pretty much confirmed it and added a few details of her own.

210 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:21:25pm

This is beyond appalling. The church has a whole lot to answer for. This is wrong on so many levels it is ....I'm just stunned.

211 itellu3times  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:21:55pm

Yes, but is this really news ... I heard whispers and rumors from my more Catholic friends when I was too young to even really understand what they were talking about, back in the 1960s. Seems to me it didn't become much of an issue until sometime in the 1980s, and wasn't fully fashionable until the last ten years. Now a lot of it is coming to light, and we should remember to be outraged, and it should be stopped, but is it really news? Just sayin.

212 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:22:14pm

re: #205 ThnkngOutLoud

Ugh.

213 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:22:34pm

re: #196 DEZes

Yessiry.

Things are quiet over yonder.
Been an hour and a half since its last poop, but it's still logged in.

214 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:23:07pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

In the Orthodox world, I swear, we're moving slower than the Vatican in some parts.

I've been reading about that.

It seems the cultural resistance to fresh air is formidable ('It could never happen here')- and the kids pay for that denial.

215 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:23:28pm

re: #213 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Things are quiet over yonder.
Been an hour and a half since its last poop, but it's still logged in.

You guys cleaned it clock, its gotta reset. ;)

216 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:23:36pm
217 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:23:49pm

re: #200 unrealizedviewpoint

Forgive me. I want more.

Understand.
I was just sayin'.

Did you see the video link he posted?

218 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:24:19pm

re: #211 itellu3times

Yes, but is this really news ... I heard whispers and rumors from my more Catholic friends when I was too young to even really understand what they were talking about, back in the 1960s. Seems to me it didn't become much of an issue until sometime in the 1980s, and wasn't fully fashionable until the last ten years. Now a lot of it is coming to light, and we should remember to be outraged, and it should be stopped, but is it really news? Just sayin.

I guess it depends on your definition of 'news'...it's news to me

219 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:24:20pm

re: #213 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Things are quiet over yonder.
Been an hour and a half since its last poop, but it's still logged in.

I betcha It's reading the LGF dictionary.

220 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:24:54pm

re: #217 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Understand.
I was just sayin'.

Did you see the video link he posted?

Yes. I'm going to watch it later though.

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:25:27pm

re: #214 researchok

I've been reading about that.

It seems the cultural resistance to fresh air is formidable ('It could never happen here')- and the kids pay for that denial.

Sadly.

222 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:25:32pm

re: #213 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Things are quiet over yonder.
Been an hour and a half since its last poop, but it's still logged in.

Its Daddy took the IMac away.

223 Throbert McGee  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:25:50pm

re: #205 ThnkngOutLoud

May 20, 2009
This just in from the Catholic League (Bill Donohue)

Basically, every statement ever issued by Bill Donohue (or under his name) can be summarized as: "But let's talk about the real victim here, namely the Catholic Church."

/never a freakin' glaive around when one needs it

224 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:25:56pm

From the Report

Female Witnesses

Physical, emotional and neglect: 226 or 59%
Physical, emotional, neglect and sexual: 123 or 32%
Physical and neglect: 20 or 5%
Physical and emotional: 8 or 2%
Physical: 3 or 1%
Physical, emotional and sexual: 2 or 1%
Physical and sexual: 1 or (0)
Total reports: 383 (100%)

Male Witnesses

Physical, emotional, neglect and sexual: 166 or 35%
Physical, emotional and neglect: 120 or 25%
Physical and neglect: 66 or 14%
Physical, neglect and sexual49 or 10%
Physical: 24 or 5%
Physical, emotional and sexual: 20 or 4%
Physical and emotional: 15 or 3%
Physical and sexual: 14 or 3%
Total reports: 474 (100%)

From the concluding comments:

19.08 Sexual abuse was reported by more than half of all the witnesses. Acute and chronic contact and non-contact sexual abuse was reported, including vaginal and anal rape, molestation and voyeurism, in both isolated assaults and on a regular basis over long periods of time. The secret nature of sexual abuse was repeatedly emphasised as facilitating its occurrence. Both residential and day settings provided opportunities for perpetrators of sexual abuse to assault children in the absence of adequate supervision and through the failure of individuals and organisations to recognise potential risk to children.

225 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:26:09pm

re: #208 SanFranciscoZionist

No, you can hug extra dogs. Trade with a cat person.

Goddess will be thrilled.

/ducking, in case she's around

226 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:27:07pm

re: #219 unrealizedviewpoint

I betcha It's reading the LGF dictionary.

Which can be difficult for a knuckle dragging troglodyte.

227 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:27:23pm

re: #219 unrealizedviewpoint

I betcha It's reading the LGF dictionary.

Why would it do THAT?!
It might encounter (*GASP*) a FACT!

228 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:27:43pm

OT, but on a slightly happier note, dinner tonight:

USDA Prime rib steak rare, with fiddleheads and fresh tomato.

Red meat and fire.. life is good.

229 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:28:20pm

BTW, on Beck's website they have an interview of him (by the Judge, no less), complaining about how he was treated on "The View." It's on Youtube.

The guy shows the hallmark trait of a compulsory liar (characteristic of addicts, btw.)

230 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:28:29pm

re: #219 unrealizedviewpoint

I betcha It's reading the LGF dictionary.

It'll freak when it sees the word fucktard and see's it's picture next to it.....
/

231 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:28:46pm

re: #228 whiterasta

OT, but on a slightly happier note, dinner tonight:

USDA Prime rib steak rare, with fiddleheads and fresh tomato.

Red meat and fire.. life is good.

You have my attention, and whats a fiddlehead?

232 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:28:49pm

re: #188 Killgore Trout

I won't embed the video because some people might find it offensive but here's the link....
Hell's Angel: Mother Teresa by Christopher Hitchens
It is Hitch so you can expect his usual anti-religious stuff but the essence of what he points is more or less correct.

IIRC there's a programme by Penn and Teller that talks frankly about Mother Theresa as well. I'll see if I can find it.

233 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:29:20pm

re: #228 whiterasta

OT, but on a slightly happier note, dinner tonight:

USDA Prime rib steak rare, with fiddleheads and fresh tomato.

Red meat and fire.. life is good.

What are fiddleheads?

234 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:29:21pm

re: #230 LGoPs

It'll freak when it sees the word fucktard and see's it's picture next to it.....
/


Its avatar was its picture.

235 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:29:39pm

re: #215 DEZes

You guys cleaned it clock, its gotta reset. ;)

Damn!
The second half of my comment didn't post.
I'm going to be getting outta here in a bit.
I wanted to ask if you'd check in over yonder a bit later.
Just don't let it have the last word.

236 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:29:39pm

re: #227 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Why would it do THAT?!
It might encounter (*GASP*) a FACT!

I suspect he found it when I posted the definition to gaze. He's been gone (but logged-in) since.

237 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:30:11pm

re: #235 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Damn!
The second half of my comment didn't post.
I'm going to be getting outta here in a bit.
I wanted to ask if you'd check in over yonder a bit later.
Just don't let it have the last word.

you got it.

238 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:30:42pm

spacejesus angry

239 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:30:49pm

re: #231 DEZes

The sprout of an ostrich fern, delicious.

[Link: www.umext.maine.edu...]

240 SummerSong  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:30:54pm

Fiddlehead - I know fiddleheads as ferns and I understand that they are edible.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:31:29pm

I missed the freak-out, apparently?

Maybe reading the dictionary will calm him/her/it down. I sometimes use that as a classroom management strategy.

242 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:31:38pm

re: #238 spacejesus

spacejesus angry

What up? The abuse post? I'm pissed off also

243 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:31:42pm

re: #240 SummerSong

Fiddlehead - I know fiddleheads as ferns and I understand that they are edible.

he's eating weeds?

244 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:31:57pm
245 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:32:53pm

re: #243 albusteve

he's eating weeds?

Ferns.

Me, I have to get a nasturtium going on the deck. Salady goodness.

246 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:33:00pm

re: #240 SummerSong

Fiddlehead - I know fiddleheads as ferns and I understand that they are edible.

ferncryin'outloud......

247 SummerSong  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:33:12pm

re: #243 albusteve

he's eating weeds?

re: #244 buzzsawmonkey

Yes--munching on them is our vestigial connection to Triceratops.

I'd try one!

248 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:33:30pm

re: #236 unrealizedviewpoint

I suspect he found it when I posted the definition to gaze. He's been gone (but logged-in) since.

I've been "sitting over there", ALT/TAB switching back and forth.

heh

249 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:33:58pm

re: #243 albusteve

Not DAT kind of weeds, mon!

250 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:34:11pm

re: #237 DEZes

*grin*
Thanks.

251 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:34:14pm

re: #224 Gus 802

Yikes!

252 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:34:28pm

re: #244 buzzsawmonkey

Yes--munching on them is our vestigial connection to Triceratops.


yes and you play them with a Bo

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

253 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:35:00pm

re: #239 whiterasta

The sprout of an ostrich fern, delicious.

[Link: www.umext.maine.edu...]

I never ate a fern before, how do you prepare them?

254 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:35:40pm

re: #237 DEZes

you got it.

What happened?re: #248 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I've been "sitting over there", ALT/TAB switching back and forth.

heh

Who?

Sorry, but I'm curious now. Another meltdown?

255 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:36:04pm

re: #253 DEZes

Boiled gently with butter, garlic and salt......

256 Buck  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:36:17pm

re: #3 BlueCanuck

Why is it that stories like these seem to come from a lot of Catholic run schools across the world? I hope there is a special place in hell for the people that are guilty of such acts.

The Pope needs to make it very clear that not only are the perpetrators guilty in the eyes of G-d, but anyone who fails to report the abuse to authorities. The line between being forgiven and excused seems to have been smeared.
Mehmet Ali Agca, the would-be assassin of Pope John Paul II, was forgiven, BUT he still had to do the time.

257 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:36:19pm

re: #232 Jimmah

This is even better than I remembered. So, with the clear understanding that this video is strictly NOT for fans of Mother Theresa, Ghandi, or the Dalai Lama, here is Penn and Teller:

[Link: www.videosift.com...]

258 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:36:34pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Yikes!

Those are the main numbers I found. The summary in 19.08 is rather hair raising and was wondering if I could even post that here.

259 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:36:49pm

Why do the Irish hate the Catholic Church so much?

/////

260 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:36:52pm

re: #253 DEZes

I never ate a fern before, how do you prepare them?

Boil them fern hour.

261 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:37:02pm

re: #255 whiterasta

Boiled gently with butter, garlic and salt......

Now we are talking, sounds good.
Thanks.

262 debutaunt  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:37:14pm

re: #253 DEZes

I never ate a fern before, how do you prepare them?

I'd go with a large quantity of your favorite alcohol product.

263 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:37:19pm

re: #255 whiterasta

Boiled gently with butter, garlic and salt......

boiled gently?....don't want to upset them eh?

264 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:37:39pm

re: #260 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Boil them fern hour.

Weed better not go there.

265 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:37:51pm

re: #248 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I've been "sitting over there", ALT/TAB switching back and forth.

So that's how ya do that mouse-less?
How do you open the next link in a list of links?

266 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:37:56pm

re: #229 freetoken

BTW, on Beck's website they have an interview of him (by the Judge, no less), complaining about how he was treated on "The View." It's on Youtube.

The guy shows the hallmark trait of a compulsory liar (characteristic of addicts, btw.)

What a freak.

267 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:10pm
268 jorline  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:23pm

re: #243 albusteve

he's eating weeds?

I use to eat weeds in brownies.

269 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:24pm

re: #264 DEZes

Weed better not go there.

Cut it out....

270 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:29pm

re: #230 LGoPs
What in hell are y'all talking about?

271 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:33pm

re: #254 Gus 802

Who?

Sorry, but I'm curious now. Another meltdown?

Never gave us the pleasure of a meltdown.
drcordell, starting in the 80's on the Gitmo thread.

272 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:45pm

re: #267 buzzsawmonkey

Yeah, leaf it alone.

You barking orders?

273 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:55pm

re: #264 DEZes

Weed better not go there.

Sow? What's wrong with botanical pun threads? Too stringy?

274 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:38:56pm

re: #261 DEZes

One of nature's gifts. Who would have thunk it?

They say it must have been a brave man, who ate the first oyster.....

275 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:39:09pm

re: #257 Jimmah

Thanks, I haven't seen that before. Watching now.....

276 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:39:10pm

re: #271 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Never gave us the pleasure of a meltdown.
drcordell, starting in the 80's on the Gitmo thread.

Thanks. I'll take a look.

277 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:39:18pm

re: #267 buzzsawmonkey

Yeah, leaf it alone.

I haven't the stamin - a for another pun thread...

278 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:39:29pm

I dunno...fern eaters...I mean is it necessary to eat ferns in this day and age?....really?

279 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:39:35pm
280 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:39:50pm

re: #268 jorline

I use to eat weeds in brownies.

Look, that's the kinda problem ya gotta hash out right at the start. Provided nobody can Thai Sticks to things, it'll be harsh but good.

281 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:40:07pm
282 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:40:23pm

re: #274 whiterasta
What about a lobster?

283 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:40:28pm

re: #268 jorline

I use to eat weeds in brownies.

well, that's perfectly acceptable

284 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:40:30pm

re: #279 buzzsawmonkey

No, I've had my chlorophyll of those.

Im going green, gonna petal around.

285 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:40:33pm

re: #279 buzzsawmonkey

Lord have mercy! You all are going to pun hell...

286 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:40:49pm

re: #279 buzzsawmonkey

No, I've had my chlorophyll of those.

That's a real dandy lyin about ferns.

287 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:01pm
288 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:04pm

OK, I'm leaving now. Goodbye, punsters.

289 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:05pm

re: #265 unrealizedviewpoint

So that's how ya do that mouse-less?
How do you open the next link in a list of links?

(note: am running Windows XP)

Press and hold ALT.
Press TAB.
A sub-window comes up, showing all the applications/windows open.

"ALT/TAB" ... "ALT/TAB" ... will switch you between the window you're in and the window you were last in.

290 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:33pm

re: #282 pingjockey

Chop him in half, lengthwise and thew throw him on the fire, while still alive......

291 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:39pm

re: #280 Guanxi88

Ahh, memories, albeit foggy, of College!

292 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:47pm

re: #278 albusteve

I dunno...fern eaters...I mean is it necessary to eat ferns in this day and age?....really?

I dated a girl named Fern, and thats all I will say on the matter.

293 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:54pm

re: #253 DEZes

I never ate a fern before, how do you prepare them?

Fern? Ummm...oh...never mind. My mind is in the gutter after two choco martinis.

Time for the couch & Sudoku. Hubby wants to watch a game at 8:30.

294 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:42:18pm

re: #290 whiterasta

Chop him in half, lengthwise and thew throw him on the fire, while still alive......

HELL YEAH!...MAN EAT!

295 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:42:23pm

re: #290 whiterasta

Chop him in half, lengthwise and thew throw him on the fire, while still alive......

You used to work for Hussein?

296 unrealizedviewpoint  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:42:47pm

re: #289 pre-Boomer Marine brat

thanks

297 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:42:48pm

re: #290 whiterasta
I was thinking about the first person to be desperate enough to eat one!

298 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:42:55pm

re: #292 DEZes

I think I used to date the same girl........

299 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:43:03pm

re: #292 DEZes

I dated a girl named Fern, and thats all I will say on the matter.

I had a great aunt named Fern...tasted like lobster

300 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:43:03pm

re: #292 DEZes

I dated a girl named Fern, and thats all I will say on the matter.


I was scared to post what I did and you beat me to it. lol!

301 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:43:07pm

re: #268 jorline

I use to eat weeds in brownies.

re: #283 albusteve

well, that's perfectly acceptable

Wasteful, though.

302 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:43:15pm

re: #287 buzzsawmonkey

You're hotter than a pistil tonight.

And you're showing a great deal of stamena.

303 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:43:26pm

re: #292 DEZes

I dated a girl named Fern, and thats all I will say on the matter.

We wouldn't know her, she was from Greenland, right?

304 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:43:45pm
305 WindHorse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:44:02pm

I saw some fern eaters that had just gathered their supper.... they were virgin ferns..... it enraged me to the point of screaming and tears....

/

306 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:44:07pm

re: #229 freetoken

BTW, on Beck's website they have an interview of him (by the Judge, no less), complaining about how he was treated on "The View." It's on Youtube.

The guy shows the hallmark trait of a compulsory liar (characteristic of addicts, btw.)

Damn. What a loser. I'm no fan of The View but Glenn Beck is a serious putz -- and the includes Andrew Napolitano. To add insult to injury he brings up Thomas Jefferson about being "on a train?"

307 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:44:07pm

re: #288 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I'm leaving now. Goodbye, punsters.

We will be there in your dreams tonight.

/heh ... just trying to create panic ... have a good evening!

308 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:44:26pm

re: #297 pingjockey

Probably some poor starving Indian a thousand years ago......

309 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:44:30pm

re: #293 rightymouse

Fern? Ummm...oh...never mind. My mind is in the gutter after two choco martinis.

Time for the couch & Sudoku. Hubby wants to watch a game at 8:30.

Not just any game my friend..King James destroying the Magic tonight..
I am so jacked up for this!

310 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:44:40pm

re: #301 Guanxi88

Wasteful, though.

in the end it lowers the cost of Zig Zags

311 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:45:06pm

re: #298 whiterasta

I think I used to date the same girl........

She never was meant to stay potted in one place.

312 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:45:42pm

re: #303 CommonCents

We wouldn't know her, she was from Greenland, right?

She was from Ferngully.

313 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:46:07pm

re: #309 HoosierHoops

Not just any game my friend..King James destroying the Magic tonight..
I am so jacked up for this!

If it's not on ice I don't give a hoot. The Wings last night on the other hand, that was indeed Magical and King Ozzie was dyn-o-mite.

314 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:46:17pm

re: #300 rightymouse

I was scared to post what I did and you beat me to it. lol!

You dated her too?

315 CommonCents  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:47:01pm

re: #299 albusteve

I had a great aunt named Fern...tasted like lobster

That's just plain WRONG.

316 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:47:33pm

re: #314 DEZes

You dated her too?

prune those comments off the blog please

317 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:48:03pm

re: #299 albusteve

I had a great aunt named Fern...tasted like lobster

*whistling innocently*

318 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:48:06pm

re: #315 CommonCents

That's just plain WRONG.

shrimp?....I forget now

319 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:48:11pm

re: #312 DEZes

No, but we did some unspeakable things in fern gully.

320 justdanny  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:48:31pm

Its like a horror movie come to life.

321 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:48:35pm

re: #306 Gus 802


To add insult to injury he brings up Thomas Jefferson about being "on a train?"

Yup, Beck draws parallels between himself and T.Jefferson.

Now that is an ego.

322 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:48:57pm

re: #297 pingjockey

I was thinking about the first person to be desperate enough to eat one!

What about the first person to see an artichoke. He must've said "Damn, I'm gonna have to invent a soft, creamy, egg based dressing to dip that in".........

323 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:49:05pm

re: #319 whiterasta

No, but we did some unspeakable things in fern gully.

Run Forrest run.

324 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:49:10pm

re: #319 whiterasta

No, but we did some unspeakable things in fern gully.

FERN GULLY!....you rascal

325 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:49:43pm

Too bad drcordell is not on the gitmo thread anymore.
You're a godddamn idiot.

326 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:49:44pm

re: #309 HoosierHoops

Not just any game my friend..King James destroying the Magic tonight..
I am so jacked up for this!

My job is to bring beer/soda and chips. Then I hoot and holler when the guys do. Kinda of gets in the way of doing sudoku, but what the heck. They get upset if I crochet while a game is on. They think it's anti-social. lol!

327 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:49:47pm
328 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:50:04pm

re: #314 DEZes

You dated her too?


Heck NO! I'm a chick.

329 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:50:12pm

re: #317 DEZes

*whistling innocently*

It's wrong on MANY levels

330 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:50:30pm

re: #321 freetoken

Yup, Beck draws parallels between himself and T.Jefferson.

Now that is an ego.

You are right about the addict observation in your initial comment. I was thinking the same thing. I can't help but notice how Glenn Beck seems to think everything is funny all of the time. Always laughing like he's high on something.

331 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:50:40pm

Could Obama appoint Beck as the Ass-clown General of the United States?

You all have the Auditor General, the Surgeon General and now it's time for the Ass-Clown General.

332 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:50:43pm

re: #328 rightymouse

Heck NO! I'm a chick.

So, some chicks do that.
;)

333 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:50:58pm

re: #313 CommonCents

If it's not on ice I don't give a hoot. The Wings last night on the other hand, that was indeed Magical and King Ozzie was dyn-o-mite.

That's cool..Just so you know..I have never seen a hockey game in my life..I see the highlights on ESPN...but that's it..
I'm not a hockey fan..But I have pals that are just nuts over it..

334 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:51:14pm

re: #325 pingjockey

Too bad drcordell is not on the gitmo thread anymore.
You're a godddamn idiot.

We hurt its feelings.........
/ Good

335 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:51:16pm

BBL!

336 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:51:33pm

re: #330 Gus 802

You are right about the addict observation in your initial comment. I was thinking the same thing. I can't help but notice how Glenn Beck seems to think everything is funny all of the time. Always laughing like he's high on something.

money has a buzz of it's own

337 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:52:07pm

re: #329 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's wrong on MANY levels

I gotta go Wok the dog.

338 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:52:41pm

re: #336 albusteve

money has a buzz of it's own

Yeah, maybe. I still don't want to give him a free pass.

339 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:53:01pm

re: #325 pingjockey

Too bad drcordell is not on the gitmo thread anymore.
You're a godddamn idiot.

Isn't it though!
User Profile says it's still logged in.

340 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:53:06pm

re: #337 DEZes

I gotta go Wok the dog.

I grill them over an open flame myself....slightly charred

341 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:53:08pm

re: #334 LGoPs

We hurt its feelings.........
/ Good


Twas a smack down.

342 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:53:14pm

re: #332 DEZes

So, some chicks do that.
;)

And this chick doesn't. :)

343 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:54:02pm

re: #337 DEZes

I gotta go Wok the dog.

Must have been a female.

/in heat

344 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:54:12pm

re: #342 rightymouse

And this chick doesn't. :)

I play it straight myself.

345 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:54:34pm

re: #275 Killgore Trout

Thanks, I haven't seen that before. Watching now.....

Only problem with this link seems to be that there don't seerm to be any links to the rest of it provided. Here's youtubes version of the same prog, in three parts. (other parts accessible from the sidebar as usual)

346 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:54:35pm

re: #341 DEZes

Twas a smack down.


Awww...poor fellah.

/heh

347 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:54:40pm

re: #101 jcm

Whatever ye have done unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done unto me. Matthew 25:40.

348 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:55:04pm

re: #340 albusteve

I grill them over an open flame myself....slightly charred

Come on rover for steaks.

349 rightymouse  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:55:29pm

re: #344 DEZes

I play it straight myself.

Me too. Now I must toddle off. :)

350 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:55:45pm

re: #332 DEZes

So, some chicks do that.
;)

*doffing hat respectfully*
It's been nice to know you!

*ducking to avoid the shrapnel*

/:D

351 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:55:55pm

re: #349 rightymouse

Me too. Now I must toddle off. :)

Have a great evening.

352 LGoPs  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:55:57pm

re: #342 rightymouse

And this chick doesn't. :)

I bite the heads off chicks.
The soft, yellow, marshmallowy easter chicks........
/ :)

353 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:55:58pm

re: #345 Jimmah

Oops. here is the youtube link now:

354 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:56:02pm

re: #326 rightymouse

My job is to bring beer/soda and chips. Then I hoot and holler when the guys do. Kinda of gets in the way of doing sudoku, but what the heck. They get upset if I crochet while a game is on. They think it's anti-social. lol!

3 cheers for rightymouse! We used to do that but mama went second shift doing logistics...The boys will be by later..but it's not the same..
I miss her..But..all things must pass..and she'll be back to dayshift again in the future

355 Altermite  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:56:32pm

re: #347 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whatever ye have done unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done unto me. Matthew 25:40.

We're going to need more millstones.

356 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:56:38pm

re: #350 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*doffing hat respectfully*
It's been nice to know you!

*ducking to avoid the shrapnel*

/:D

It didnt get me whacked......yet.

357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:56:45pm

re: #352 LGoPs

"Let my Peeps go!"
-Moses

358 whiterasta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:57:00pm

re: #348 DEZes

Woof, woof...Red meat and fire.

359 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:57:44pm

re: #61 leereyno

This reminds me a lot of the "Magdalene Laundries" where women were imprisoned and enslaved by the church:

[Link: www.wikinfo.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

I encourage everybody to check out these links.

360 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:58:08pm

re: #357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Let my Peeps go!"
-Moses

I'm waiting for Quinn the Eskimo

361 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:58:22pm

re: #356 DEZes

It didnt get me whacked......yet.

Draw the curtains.
Stay low, preferably inside interior rooms.

362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:58:29pm

re: #359 HelloDare

The movie (can't remember the name) was very distressing.

363 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:58:46pm

re: #352 LGoPs

I bite the heads off chicks.
The soft, yellow, marshmallowy easter chicks........
/ :)

Meeps thinks thats cruel.

364 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:58:46pm

re: #357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Let my Peeps go!"
-Moses

Dear Lord..Thanks for the bread and water for the last 40 years...
Next time send a GPS device..
-Moses

365 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:59:36pm

re: #360 albusteve

Well, when he gets here, everybody's gonna jump for joy.

366 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:01:03pm

re: #361 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Draw the curtains.
Stay low, preferably inside interior rooms.

I better clam up. ;)

367 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:03:23pm

V The Miniseries.... Rebooted

Is it just me, or is this series making not so subtle slaps against Obama?

368 Wendya  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:04:06pm

re: #135 ihateronpaul


there is a slippery slope from spanking (which has disturbing sexual overtones) to horrifying abuse such as this.

You've got to be kidding me. If you immediately think of sexual acts when you think of a child being spanked, the problem rests with you.

369 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:05:18pm

re: #366 DEZes

I better clam up. ;)

I'm leaving in just a very few.
You have a good evening!

370 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:07:11pm

re: #330 Gus 802

Beck is indeed an addict. My sympathies to those who struggle with such issues...

In Beck's case he will not admit his guilt when he has been caught in a trap of his own making, and this characterological aversion to accepting corrections to his lies is a hold-over from his drug days.

371 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:07:22pm

re: #362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The movie (can't remember the name) was very distressing.

Magdalene Sisters

372 nyc redneck  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:08:17pm

human beings can be so cruel. this is heartbreaking.

373 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:10:03pm

re: #371 HelloDare

(that was kind of a joke)

374 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:11:18pm

re: #371 HelloDare

My moment of glee in that movie was when she washed the priests frock with poison ivy.

375 DEZes  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:11:52pm

re: #369 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm leaving in just a very few.
You have a good evening!

You do the same.
thanks for the company.

376 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:22:39pm

re: #368 Wendya

You've got to be kidding me. If you immediately think of sexual acts when you think of a child being spanked, the problem rests with you.

In the context of a blood-related family, you're right; there is nothing sexual implied. But in situations of two unrelated people, one male and obviously stronger: that's psychologically different.

377 Solomon2  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:26:50pm

I think one has to separate the beatings which are comparatively common disciplinary measures from the rapes which are not. My college roommate went to Christian Brothers high school (in the U.S.) and for him the best part about university was that the professors didn't beat him. He seemed OK, not traumatised.

378 IslandLibertarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:33:31pm

ok, never joke about Ninjas, Beck and Kilgore Trout......and never put a cartoon about what Jesus said would be better to do to a child abuser than the judgment awaiting them..............

379 Ateam  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:38:09pm

Cases of reverends ( from all the religions. With prominent advantage of the catholic church with respect in the pedophilia and survivor of helpless minors ) were discovered / were covered during the last decades. So also the thing in relation morbid Rabbais from the Spanish current in Judaism, and of course, the mini/sexual/ corruption of Islamic Mullas. Actually this is not special to the hegemony Hrligiozit. Politicians, tenth financing, professors in the universities – every time that that/because there is a dominion and power, there is corruption and mini/sexual/ survivor. Almost all of them men are the aggressors. Something in the genes & hormones.

380 RebelDebater  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:46:59pm

Well boy I dont expect ANY anti-catholicism to be fueled by this!

381 Bubba the Magnificent  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:47:32pm

re: #96 SanFranciscoZionist

As horrible as this is (and I make no excuses for it) things are changing in the church. My nephew is in the seminary in Louisiana and when he met with the Archbishop before entering the seminary the Archbishop gave him the phone number to his direct line and explicitly told him that if he saw any kind of behavior going on that should not be happening he was not to go to the head of the seminary but instead to call him directly and the problem would be immediately removed. So far after two years there have been no problem students or teachers.

382 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:05:07pm

re: #380 RebelDebater

Well boy I dont expect ANY anti-catholicism to be fueled by this!

You should be less worried about "anti-catholicism" and more worried about the children victimized by the Church's representatives.

383 Solomon2  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:08:27pm

re: #381 Bubba the Magnificent

I'm afraid you failed to grasp the true meaning of that exchange: the Archbishop wanted the normal channels bypassed so the fewer who knew about it, the better: that way, there wouldn't be any embarrassing records that could, when reviewed, result in systematically eliminating problems, rather than just removing the less-easily concealed oil spots.

That's the positive way to look at it. In the negative way - which is closer to what I've seen - the Archbishop had a direct line so he could know absolutely which student had to have his career steered into a dead end, to effectively bury complaints forever.

How do you know that these are the possibilities? Because the Archbishop promised that the problem would be removed, not that the system would be remedied. Which meant that the "problem" might be moved to a different seminary where somebody else could possibly be threatened. Not far away from me is a Church "community" which houses sex offenders. It is located right next-door to a public elementary school for autistic and learning-disabled children, with not even a street separating them. If there was a problem there, who would know? Is this the kind of accountability and sensitivity you expect from today's Catholic Church?

384 SFGoth  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:12:17pm

The whole concept of the structure of the Catholic church, separating men from women, and then requiring them to be celibate, is unnatural. I went to a high Catholic wedding and the old priests spent more time groping the bride then they did genuflecting to their deity. Add in the fact that until recently, the Catholic Church was the de jure or de facto government, from local to national, and you have rampant corruption on top of sexual deviance. I've made my anti-Catholicism pretty transparent in other posts and this just heaps more fuel on the fire. This, like the Holocaust, just proves that there is no "God" in the Western tradition. Don't give me any bullpucky about "we don't know His mysterious ways" because first of all, a divine being with a penis is a stupid idea, and second of all, that's a fargin' cop out. Boys being molested by priests isn't mysterious, it's sick.

385 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:14:13pm

re: #382 Charles

You should be less worried about "anti-catholicism" and more worried about the children victimized by the Church's representatives.

This isn't about Catholicism or any other religion or denomination or religion. It's about a culture that refuses to deal with the reality on their own back yard.

Catholics aren't the sole owners of that kind of dysfunctional thinking.

To make it about anti religious sentiment is to further deny reality.

386 SFGoth  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:20:01pm

re: #385 researchok

This isn't about Catholicism or any other religion or denomination or religion. It's about a culture that refuses to deal with the reality on their own back yard.

Catholics aren't the sole owners of that kind of dysfunctional thinking.

To make it about anti religious sentiment is to further deny reality.

Right, there're so many HUGE scandals involving rabbis molesting young boys. The only thing I'm aware of is my childhood rabbi cheating on his wife, which was a pretty *stupid* thing to do for a guy whose last name is "Fink". Seriously.

387 Bubba the Magnificent  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:21:13pm

re: #383 Solomon2

Solomon2, so you were there? What does my nephew look like? Exactly what was said? What were the vocal intonations?

It was made very clear to my nephew that the problem being removed meant that the student would be ejected from the seminary.

The system is very much being remedied. My nephew went through over a year of psychological testing and sessions with psychologists and psychiatrists before he was accepted into the seminary. Those doctors probed very deeply into his psyche in order to find anything that could possibly be a problem.

I was very impressed with the things the church did with him to ensure that he was a good candidate for the priesthood.

I have seen the abuse side of the church up close. There is a former priest who is now in prison is Massachussets for raping a girl in the sacristy of my old church. I didn't go to church for a long, long time and when I started going back I happened to go to one of the last masses said by that priest. It felt like an evil presence was in the church for the entire mass and it freaked me out. I didn't go back to the church for six months. Luckily for me I got to know the priest who headed up the parish and he brought me back.

388 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:24:06pm

re: #386 SFGoth

Right, there're so many HUGE scandals involving rabbis molesting young boys. The only thing I'm aware of is my childhood rabbi cheating on his wife, which was a pretty *stupid* thing to do for a guy whose last name is "Fink". Seriously.

Actually, the Jewish community has been beset by big sex abuse scandals, indictments, prosecutions and convictions.

I can direct you to links if you need them.

The tragedy of abuse crosses all religious and cultural lines.

389 SFGoth  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:26:40pm

re: #388 researchok

Actually, the Jewish community has been beset by big sex abuse scandals, indictments, prosecutions and convictions.

I can direct you to links if you need them.

The tragedy of abuse crosses all religious and cultural lines.

Great, then it's just more support for the concept that there is no Supreme Being. A Supreme Being that allows this stuff to occur?

390 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:29:23pm

There are many religious people who are examples of what great potential we have as exemplified by the good they do. There are also non believers who are most moral and ethical.

No, we are endowed with free will, whether we believe or not. There is no one size fits all.

391 daledog  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:31:36pm
The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for.

Indeed they do. Heads should roll. No excuses offered.

Can I point out the the Catholic Church has much to be proud of as well?

Saving Europe from jihad on more than one occasion.
Pope Pius XII (a righteous gentile) saving thousands of Jews during the Holocaust.
Pope John Paul standing up to and helping to defeat the Soviet Union.
The defense of innocent life in the womb.
The caring for indigent peoples all over the world.

I went to Catholic schools my whole life. I had a great time. I met many great priests and nuns who helped me in many ways.

A quote from Mr. Albert Einstein:

Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom: but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Catholic Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.

392 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:33:20pm

re: #388 researchok

You wrote in a previous post the following: "It's about a culture that refuses to deal with the reality on their own back yard." So, how are "indictments, prosecutions and convictions" indicative of a refusal to deal with reality? (I've read in any number of newspapers, various scandals, regarding child molesting cantors, rabbis, etc., but the perps are not shielded nor sheltered by the equivalent of a Vatican -- the child molesters are not "promoted" in a "church" hierarchy -- they're sent to prison...that's the difference.)

393 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:38:53pm

re: #392 J.S.

You wrote in a previous post the following: "It's about a culture that refuses to deal with the reality on their own back yard." So, how are "indictments, prosecutions and convictions" indicative of a refusal to deal with reality? (I've read in any number of newspapers, various scandals, regarding child molesting cantors, rabbis, etc., but the perps are not shielded nor sheltered by the equivalent of a Vatican -- the child molesters are not "promoted" in a "church" hierarchy -- they're sent to prison...that's the difference.)

Some of those involved have been shielded for years by schools, communal organizations, synagogues and summer camps. In some cases parents and kids have been threatened or shunned.

There is no difference between the Catholic and Jewish communal and religious dysfunctions- or that of any other group.

394 jill e  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:39:32pm

From the Daily Telegraph:

Archbishop Nichols's response to the Irish child abuse report is perfectly judged
Posted By: Damian Thompson at May 20, 2009 at 20:42:49 [General]

The record of the Irish Church in dealing with child abuse by clergy is disgusting, and I want to consider why in another post. But, particularly given that he's going to be installed in Westminster Cathedral tomorrow, we should note that Archbishop Vincent Nichols's reponse to ITV's questions about today's report was absolutely spot on:

Responding to the report, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, the new leader of Catholics in England and Wales, told ITV News: "It's very distressing and very disturbing and my heart goes out today first of all to those people who will find that their stories are now told in public... Secondly, I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past which instinctively and quite naturally they'd rather not look at.

"That takes courage, and also we shouldn't forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did."

Asked whether those who perpetrated violence and abuse should be held to account, he said: "Yes they should, no matter how long ago it happened.

"In this country now we have a very steady and reliable system of co-operation with police and social services who actually now hold us in good regard.

"They know that we are reliable and trustworthy partners. Those that abused the trust that was placed in them should be brought to public account."

Asked whether legal and police process should take place, he said: "Yes, absolutely. If the offences are such that demand that."

Asked why abuse seemed more prevalent in the Catholic Church than other faiths, he said: "Every time there is a single incident of abuse in the Catholic Church it is a scandal.

"And I'm glad it's a scandal. I would be very worried if it wasn't a scandal... I hope these things don't happen again but I hope they're never a matter of indifference."

This is both a forthright and subtle reaction. Archbishop Nichols makes the point that Irish clergy and members of religious orders will have to show "courage" in confronting sins that may have been committed decades ago - but, crucially, he acknowledges that these discoveries will "overshadow all the good that they [priests and religious] did".

That's a polite way of saying: sorry, guys, but your public reputation is pretty much ruined. Now live with it.

As for England and Wales, +Vincent says that the Church now has a reliable and trustworthy system in place to handle accusations of abuse. That is true - now; it wasn't true a few years ago, and Archbishop Nichols was a key figure in forcing the Church to wake up to reality.

And then the phrase that really jumps out. Referring to cases of abuse, he says every one is a scandal and "I'm glad that it's a scandal".

We needed to hear that. If you're looking for any more evidence that the Holy Father picked the right man to succeed Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor, there it is.

395 Buck  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:42:01pm

re: #55 Charles

I beg to differ.

[snip]

The cover-ups went all the way to the Vatican.

The cover ups have to do with forgiveness. If you confess and promise never to do it again....

The issue then becomes that confession is privileged. And the abuser feels that he/she will not be revealed to the police.

Not to mention the obvious need to protect the church.

There has been no clear guidance from the Pope.... harm a child - go to jail!

396 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:45:41pm

re: #393 researchok

Nope. I don't believe you have a case about there being "no difference." (There was a well known case, btw, of a Catholic who burnt people alive in some building -- this was in Africa -- and the individual, as opposed to going to prison, was sheltered by the pope -- she became a "nun." She was sent to a convent. That's what happened, well documented. Look it up.)

397 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:49:45pm

re: #396 J.S.

Nope. I don't believe you have a case about there being "no difference." (There was a well known case, btw, of a Catholic who burnt people alive in some building -- this was in Africa -- and the individual, as opposed to going to prison, was sheltered by the pope -- she became a "nun." She was sent to a convent. That's what happened, well documented. Look it up.)

There is no difference- child abuse, domestic violence, sexual abuse and dysfunction are not differentiated by religion or community.

To believe otherwise is to be a part of the problem.

398 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:51:21pm

re: #397 researchok

Ah, yes, and that includes murder? lol Stated like a true moral relativist.

399 Solomon2  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:52:54pm

re: #387 Bubba the Magnificent

No. Different school, similar problems. I hear the Church is making some changes, yet given Church history I have to wonder about their long-term effectiveness. While some wheels and cogs were changed at my school, the Church did nothing to aid those students whose felt ruined. Do you think the attitude of denying justice for convenience's sake bodes well for the future of the Church?

400 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:52:54pm

re: #398 J.S.

You believe Jews who commit murder are somehow different than others who commit murder?

401 Throbert McGee  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:53:30pm

re: #391 daledog

A quote from Mr. Albert Einstein:

"Only the Catholic Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth. [...] I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly."

Mary, please.

Now tell us about Einstein's deathbed conversion to Christianity.

402 Dr. Shalit  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:53:47pm

Charles - and All Lizardim -

The maltreatment of Children under Non-Parental Care is legend. I live in NJ. We have DYFS. Simi's son by her prior marriage was taken by them when she had an "episode" - i.e. an argument with a cab driver. She was hospitalized for about 10 days, her son was HELD by the state of NJ for about 3-4 months.
It took several court hearings to "free" him. During his "Captivity" he was at least "roughed-up" - he WILL NOT OPEN UP TOTALLY AS TO WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM TO THIS DAY! As well as the Catholic Church - The STATE of NEW JERSEY has MUCH to ANSWER FOR. That is all and Quite Enough.

-S-

403 notutopia  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:58:27pm

The Catholic Church had better speak out on this unhuman treatment and abuse of children. I am furious and just physically sick after reading this release.
How UNGodly!
*triple spit*

404 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:03:37pm

re: #400 researchok

Sooo, you figure that Jews have the equivalent of a "pope" to intercede on their behalf and grant them "pardons" for murder? Is that what you figure? LOL

405 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:10:47pm

re: #404 J.S.

Sooo, you figure that Jews have the equivalent of a "pope" to intercede on their behalf and grant them "pardons" for murder? Is that what you figure? LOL

No, Jews do not have a Pope.

They do however have religious leaders, community leaders, and even Grand Rabbis and Chief Rabbis- all of whom wield great influence.

Are supposing that this Pope and the previous Pope approved the ugly behavior? Are you implying that they knew of every instance?

I can make the case that some Jewish religious and community leaders knew of abuse in their communities for years- and did nothing or swept the matter under the rug, or had the perpetrators quietly leave one community for another and ply their evil where they have been relocated.

Yes, that is so much different than the Catholics.

406 Caboose  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:12:12pm

I'm Episcopalian. Very recently, our newly-arrived rector very unexpectedly was defrocked for "conduct unbecoming a rector". While we don't have all the details, it appears that the rector let his little head do his thinking for him for a very extended period of time (at which point it went from being a tryst or "a momentary lapse of reason" and became a relationship, if ya ask me). What I applaud the local Diocese for was their no-nonsense handling of this; no shuffling him off to another parish under the cover of darkness. It was "face the music or haul your carcass outta Dodge" and it was done in a matter of about a week. Granted, now that the gent has left the priesthood, there is nothing more that the church can do to him, but this was not a criminal case, so all this poor chump has got to face is a very pissed-off Ms. (And I don't think I'd want to cross her, yikes!)

407 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:14:04pm

re: #404 J.S.

Sooo, you figure that Jews have the equivalent of a "pope" to intercede on their behalf and grant them "pardons" for murder? Is that what you figure? LOL

By the way, which recent Pope ever grant a pardon for murder?

408 mich-again  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:14:22pm

A truly disgusting and revolting story that makes me sick to my stomach. Unbelievable that so many people were directly involved or enabled it with their silence. Pure evil.

409 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:15:44pm

re: #405 researchok

Oh please. Look, go read on Wiki about Bernard Law -- look him up. What happened to him, eh? After his sexual abuse scandal, what did the pope do? What did he do? He promoted Bernard Law -- gave him a new position in the church. from wiki: "After his [Bernard Law's ]resignation, John Paul appointed Law to a post in Rome, putting him in charge of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, with the title of Archpriest." Sooo, that's a thumb's up! it's what happens when you combine religion and political power -- in the figurehead of a pope.

410 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:17:08pm

re: #407 researchok

it wasn't just "a murder" -- it was mass murder -- which occured in Rwanda -- again, go look it up for yourself.

411 Ateam  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:17:19pm

re: #391 daledog

quote: "Pope Pius XII (a righteous gentile) saving thousands of Jews during the Holocaust."

Really?! History remembering quite the opposite about Pope Pius XII. A collaborator with Hitler through the idea of the final solution to the "Jewish problem" in Europe.

Fucking bastard that turned both his 2 blind eyes away from the biggest industrial death machinery in mankind.

412 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:25:12pm

re: #409 J.S.

Oh please. Look, go read on Wiki about Bernard Law -- look him up. What happened to him, eh? After his sexual abuse scandal, what did the pope do? What did he do? He promoted Bernard Law -- gave him a new position in the church. from wiki: "After his [Bernard Law's ]resignation, John Paul appointed Law to a post in Rome, putting him in charge of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, with the title of Archpriest." Sooo, that's a thumb's up! it's what happens when you combine religion and political power -- in the figurehead of a pope.

I don't know that the Pope had all the info.

That said, there are religious leaders in the Jewish community that knew full well what some of their teachers/cantors/rabbis and lay leaders were doing and like the Catholic leadership, they did everything they could to hide the problem and protect the perpetrators. I'd be happy to cite examples and provide links. Some of the most egregious examples of sexual predation in the Jewish community have been from the most religious and orthodox communities.

In more than a few cases, the religious and community leadership allowed these perverts continue working with children or continue with their classroom assignments.

How is that not different?

The fact is, we can go round and round, but in the end, a sexual predator and those who hide him are all cut from the same cloth- and what religion they claim to practice is not relevant.

413 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:28:00pm

re: #410 J.S.

it wasn't just "a murder" -- it was mass murder -- which occured in Rwanda -- again, go look it up for yourself.

Mass murders, like all dysfunctions, cross all racial, religious and political communities and societies.

414 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:46:19pm

re: #413 researchok

Yes: "Mass murders, like all dysfunctions, cross all racial, religious and political communities and societies." That's a statement of the obvious. However, not all "religions" have the political power to grant "pardons" or commute prison sentences. How about that, eh?

415 american sabra  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:52:20pm

re: #411 Ateam

Well you're both kinda wrong.

Conclusion - Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust
The Pope's reaction to the Holocaust was complex and inconsistent. At times, he tried to help the Jews and was successful. But these successes only highlight the amount of influence he might have had, if he not chosen to remain silent on so many other occasions. No one knows for sure the motives behind Pius XII's actions, or lack thereof, since the Vatican archives have only been fully opened to select researchers. Historians offer many reasons why Pope Pius XII was not a stronger public advocate for the Jews: A fear of Nazi reprisals, a feeling that public speech would have no effect and might harm the Jews, the idea that private intervention could accomplish more, the anxiety that acting against the German government could provoke a schism among German Catholics, the church's traditional role of being politically neutral and the fear of the growth of communism were the Nazis to be defeated.(34) Whatever his motivation, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the Pope, like so many others in positions of power and influence, could have done more to save the Jews.

No one saved the Jews yet many Jews indeed were saved. Today Jews and Christians have good relations and whatever I personally think about the complicity of those in the past, I'm happy with our relations today.

Child abuse in religious and state institutions still needs to be closely monitored. I think it's probably endemic to both these institutions. In fact, there are watchdog groups for this kind of thing.

This month in Florida, the Arthur G. Dozier School for Boys in Marianna was investigated by the State for abuses in the 50's and 60's (the school is still open, btw). The case was brought on by men who suffered at the boy's school at that time, beatings and rapes. They claimed boys were killed and buried at the school. They found no evidence of that and the state closed its investigation into the deaths. However, the allegations of abuse are still being investigated which hopefully will bring some closure to these men.

416 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:52:47pm

Dogma is irrelevant. It's the behavior that counts.

Given that so many in the Jewish religious and community behaved in the same way the Catholic establishment did, it isn't a stretch to say that Jewish religious and community leaders 'pardoned' the sexual predators in the same way the Church did. As I noted, predator rabbis and teachers were allowed to relocate and their pasts were covered up- even when new allegations arose.

Once more, you are trying to make distinctions where there are none..

417 Nemesis6  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:55:43pm

A flash-game has actually been made on this subject. Operation Pedopriest - Protect the priests who rape the boys, threaten parents who witness it to silence, and divert police should you fail to intimidate them. If all else fails, you can "move" the priests who are about to be arrested. Hilarious and original concept:

[Link: www.newgrounds.com...]

418 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:00:14pm

re: #416 researchok

So, it's the "behavior that counts." Fine. So, tell me, where's the Jewish Pope who grants the pardons and gives the promotions to child molesters the higher religious authority? Where. Describe it. Give an illustrative example of this behavior. (o wait, I guess you can't do that, can you? since there is no Jewish Pope. How about that).

419 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:08:47pm

I shall provide you a list tomorrow.

What the Pope has to do with increasing sexual abuse in the Jewiah community is beyond me. As I noted, dogma is irrelevant. It is the behavior that matters and the established Jewish religious and communal leadership have acted in the same way the Church has.

Inasmuch as you seem fixated on the religious aspect of all this, I shall focus on the Orthodox and Hasidic communities.

I do recall a book by Hasidic Rabbi Abraham Twerski (a renowned psychiatrist) in which he takes to task the Orrthodox Jewish community for ignoring spouse abuse, drug abuse and sexual abuse in that community. He was excoriated at the time of publication, but as stories of abuse and legal inquiries began, it was reluctantly admitted that the problem is far greater than thought.

Pretending that the Jewish community handles abuse in a way that is better than the Catholic community is probably a road you don't want to take.

420 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:27:29pm

re: #419 researchok

You still don't get it, do you? A. Twerski writes about it -- that means it's exposed -- it means you can look it up -- it's in THE PAPERS -- i can go to any database and find the f**g articles. It's not at all "difficult." It's published. duh.

421 irish rose  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:48:29pm

Irelands' great shame.

The Catholic Church has a great deal to answer for, indeed...

422 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:49:41pm

I get it- And Twerski was rebuffed and vilified for years.

There have been Catholic writers who have done the same and have experienced the same.

There is no difference between the communities- both have a history of leadership that has ignored the problem of sexual predation, both have a history of covering them up and both have a history of dealing with the issue when forced to.

The Jewish community is no different than the Catholic community. If anything, the Jewish community is late in dealing with a problem that has been around for a long time- and that is something that community will have to deal with for decades.

423 J.S.  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:00:44pm

re: #422 researchok

There is no difference between the communities.

So, for the 20th time, where is the Jewish pope? Answer it.

424 Canoe Train  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:07:32pm

I won't print out what I think should happen to the perps, as that would get me banned. So, I'll just type that I hope those who behaved in such licentious ways get brought to justice - in either this world or the hereafter - and that the victims also see justice.

425 researchok  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:14:08pm

Of course there is no Jewish Pope.

So what?

How does that make not dealing with the problem of sexual predators in the Jewish community less serious an issue? How does that mitigate the deplorable track record of that community not dealing with sexual predators for decades? There are plenty of Jewish religious and community leaders that need to be held accountable for their inaction.

Are there any examples of Jewish religious seminaries or organizations that have publicly admitted culpability and have assumed restitution for victims? Have Jewish religious or community leaders resigned or been fired for their part in the cover up? Are there Jewish religious or community sponsored help centers for victims of child abuse and their families? Are the same Jewish religious or community institutions where crimes occurred offering therapy and other family services for victims?

I can understand why you want to talk about the Pope.

426 jvic  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:46:54pm

re: #391 daledog

re: #401 Throbert McGee

1. Here is a deconstruction of that Einstein "quote":

Writing to Count Montgelas on March 28, 1947, Einstein explained that early in the Hitler years he had casually mentioned to some journalist that hardly any German intellectuals except a few churchmen were supporting individual rights and intellectual freedom. He added that this statement had subsequently been drastically exaggerated beyond anything that he could recognize as his own. (Unpublished letter, Einstein Archives, item number 58-548)

2. I've seen plausible arguments that Pius XII has been smeared. I haven't formed an opinion. I do know that his name does not appear on the list of Italian righteous maintained by Yad Vashem.

3. After I first registered, I thought Charles had a thin skin and quick trigger finger. As time passes, I'm becoming more understanding.

427 daledog  Thu, May 21, 2009 3:35:57am

re: #401 Throbert McGee

Einstein's words, not mine.

428 daledog  Thu, May 21, 2009 3:39:43am

re: #411 Ateam

Nonsense. Look at more than one source.

429 ihateronpaul  Thu, May 21, 2009 5:25:14am

Well I guess I was the only here not spanked as a child and I was nice to my parents so they never needed to.

430 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 6:24:29am

re: #426 jvic

Plausible arguments from the Catholic Church? Well go figure. The link I posted of the Jewish Virtual Library is an honest ACCURATE account if anyone bothered to read it.

No one can deny the centuries of abuse and murder done by the Catholic Church to the Jews.

I hope Charles deletes ResearchOK's account. H/she's a flat out liar.

431 researchok  Thu, May 21, 2009 8:11:39am

re: #430 American Sabra

Plausible arguments from the Catholic Church? Well go figure. The link I posted of the Jewish Virtual Library is an honest ACCURATE account if anyone bothered to read it.

No one can deny the centuries of abuse and murder done by the Catholic Church to the Jews.

I hope Charles deletes ResearchOK's account. H/she's a flat out liar.

Where exactly have I lied? My arguments have no malice, personal or religious.

The fact remains that there is little difference in how the Jewish and Catholic communities today have dealt with sexual abuse in their respective communities.

That the Catholic Church has persecuted Jews is not in question- that has always been a shameful historical reality. That however, is not what we are debating here.

432 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 8:59:11am

re: #431 researchok

Why have you lied? Because the Church has decades of abuse that they systematically cover up. Because 1000s of Catholic men (mostly) have come forth with allegations of rape by priests. Because the Catholic church has had to close/sell churches because they're going broke paying legal fees. I wonder, in fact, if this story of abuse in Ireland came to light in the last 10 years because of all these past allegations. We're going to see more and more of these cases, I guarantee.

And you sit there and claim that the Jews are equal in this? That's why you're a liar. You have ZERO proof. If you did you would show it.

433 psychobarb  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:08:14am

My two cents:

I tend to agree this might have happened on similarly sized organizations entrusted with powerless, poor children.

Foster care has horrific problems. And think about the treatment of poor children in India and South America; they are abused and murdered everyday.

The story here is the Catholic Church, one of the most powerful organizations in the history of the world.

It is called the Roman Catholic Church. People simply did not question a priest or, G-d forbid, a bishop, it was not done.

It kept the wheeels of soceity spinning for over a thousand years. At one time the priesthood was the way, the only way out of servitude and a means of getting an education.

We are looking at it through today's prism, as we should, and it is, indeed horrible.

434 researchok  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:22:15am

What lie?

Please be specific. Simply making an allegation does not make that allegation credible.

My exchange with JS came about as a the result of a discussion in how sexual predators were treated in various religious communities.

I am well aware of the horrors that have occurred in Catholic institutions and I certainly will not condone them. I am of the opinion that these crimes must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Now, as to the numbers: There are far more Catholics than there are Jews. It stands to reason there would be more incidences of abuse.

I am reluctant to post articles about how the Jewish community has responded to accusations of sexual abuse- I do not wish to make this a conversation about any one particular religion. My remarks are have been directed at how these allegations are handled.

There are however plenty of examples of Jewish religious institutions that have covered up for decades incidents of sexual abuse. There are institutions that have kept pedophile teachers in place for years and there are rabbis that have issued rulings that even forbid the reporting of these incidents to the authorities. Children and parents of children are often threatened with religious sanctions or worse if they go forward with allegations of sexual abuse.

My point is only to highlight that there is often a particular culture that permeates religious communities of all stripes- and that allows for the tragedy of sexual predation to continue.

Sexual predation has nothing to do with a particular religion or community. It has everything to do with an individual's dysfunctions- and those individuals can be found in every community. It is in how we deal with the problems that is the basis of this discussion.

My contention is that neither the Catholic or Jewish communities have handled these issues appropriately.

Lastly, I did not start this discussion. I only responded to remarks that were made.

435 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:34:42am

You are propagating an untruth. That is called a lie. I don't have to show you anything! You're the one making the accusation, not me.

Of course there are more Catholics than Jews. I am talking about percentages, obviously, not numbers. And by those percentages, the incidence of abuse within the Orthodox community is much smaller than in any other communities, Catholics or otherwise. Yes, sexual abuse is covered up in the Jewish community as it is in the Christian community. I never said there wasn't ANY abuse. I'm saying there is no comparison to others, certainly not equal as you suggest.

Men are pigs by nature. They want to get their d*s wet any way they can and I don't care if they're religious or not. You're making an accusation that it's all equal and it is NOT. "There is no difference in the two communiites." That's what you said. And if you have proof to show that then let's see it or shut the hell up.

436 researchok  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:39am

re: #435 American Sabra

You are propagating an untruth. That is called a lie. I don't have to show you anything! You're the one making the accusation, not me.

Of course there are more Catholics than Jews. I am talking about percentages, obviously, not numbers. And by those percentages, the incidence of abuse within the Orthodox community is much smaller than in any other communities, Catholics or otherwise. Yes, sexual abuse is covered up in the Jewish community as it is in the Christian community. I never said there wasn't ANY abuse. I'm saying there is no comparison to others, certainly not equal as you suggest.

Men are pigs by nature. They want to get their d*s wet any way they can and I don't care if they're religious or not. You're making an accusation that it's all equal and it is NOT. "There is no difference in the two communiites." That's what you said. And if you have proof to show that then let's see it or shut the hell up.

Again, where was I untruthful? You made the allegation, not I.

Further, when it comes to handling allegations of sexual abuse in both the Catholic and Jewish communities, I see no substantive differences.

If there are, I'm more than willing to hear you out.

437 Throbert McGee  Thu, May 21, 2009 6:24:06pm

re: #427 daledog

Einstein's words, not mine.

See, that's where you're completely, grotesquely wrong.

438 AndyMacOP  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:49:33pm

re: #411 Ateam

quote: "Pope Pius XII (a righteous gentile) saving thousands of Jews during the Holocaust."

Really?! History remembering quite the opposite about Pope Pius XII. A collaborator with Hitler through the idea of the final solution to the "Jewish problem" in Europe.

Fucking bastard that turned both his 2 blind eyes away from the biggest industrial death machinery in mankind.

An elderly priest in my priory forged baptismal certificates for Jews when he was a young student friar in the Vatican during the war at the order of Pope Pius XII. This is not new news though; it is documented in many historical works. But, like anything that flies in the face of popular history, it is ignored.

439 AndyMacOP  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:08:53pm

re: #30 reine.de.tout

The information needs to be published.
The Church needs to confront this head-on, not try to continue to obfuscate and hide.

The Church's tendency to try to hide this stuff, sweep it under the rug, is an affront to every Catholic who tries to live by the rules.

Yes, no more hiding. This is not exactly news either. The Irish Magdalene laundries are a well known stain on the Church and Ireland. This is report just shows the details that were not particularly hidden from the population. Movies have been made about the subject!

Also, as a newly minted priest of the Roman Catholic Church, I can attest to the screening methods and training we go through these days, the certification our Province has to undergo to remain insurable and the complete and total policing of ourselves in ministerial positions.

I have one last word on this subject that most will understand regarding the abuse of a child by a so-called minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: Millstone!

440 SteveRogers  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:26:07am

re: #435 American Sabra

You are propagating an untruth. That is called a lie. I don't have to show you anything! You're the one making the accusation, not me.

Of course there are more Catholics than Jews. I am talking about percentages, obviously, not numbers. And by those percentages, the incidence of abuse within the Orthodox community is much smaller than in any other communities, Catholics or otherwise. Yes, sexual abuse is covered up in the Jewish community as it is in the Christian community. I never said there wasn't ANY abuse. I'm saying there is no comparison to others, certainly not equal as you suggest.

Men are pigs by nature. They want to get their d*s wet any way they can and I don't care if they're religious or not. You're making an accusation that it's all equal and it is NOT. "There is no difference in the two communiites." That's what you said. And if you have proof to show that then let's see it or shut the hell up.

I downdinged you for this comment: "Men are pigs by nature. They want to get their d*s wet any way they can and I don't care if they're religious or not."

Oh really? How many? All men? Can you prove that? Speaking for myself, "I don't want my d* wet any way I can."
What an incredibly sexist and ignorant statement to make.
Not all men are like that, "by nature" or otherwise. Sheesh!

441 jill e  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:39:03am

re: #439 AndyMacOP

Thank you for your comments. May God bless you and as Pope Benedict said in his homily at his inaugural Mass—I pray that you "may not flee for fear of the wolves.”
The Church needs brave priests and bishops.

442 im_gumby_damnit  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:10:52pm

Here is the kind of "child abuse" my Catholic parish engages in. We built a school in a small, extremely poor town in Haiti. We provide the children who attend the school with a meal and a multivitamin every day. Many of these children would otherwise go hungry. We built a well so that the community would have a clean source of drinking water and the children would have a better chance of avoiding disease. We organize and send a medical mission to the town twice a year to provide medical services to the citizens. Generally, none of them have access to health care.

This is just one Catholic parish and just one of their missions. Catholic churches around the world have similar programs to help people, especially the poor. These stories, however, rarely get reported because they don't sell newspapers or TV advertising.

Let's please be careful not to judge all Catholics or the Church as a whole based on stories like this.

443 odorlesspaintthinner  Sat, May 23, 2009 11:27:29am

As a Roman Catholic, it is inconceivable to me how such a shameful system of abuse could be perpetuated under the aegis of the Church.

Does the Roman Catholic Church have a lot to answer for? It does. Abusive priests, persecution of Jews, hypocritical institutions such as in this article, and any failure to live up to the example of Christ.

I do want to make a point, and it is specific to the RCC, not meant to leave out Orthodox, Protestants, Jews or others.

Jesus said to Peter, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [Matthew 16:18-19, KJV]

Jesus says "the gates of hell" (or the New American Bible says "the gates of the netherworld") shall not prevail against the Church that He would build on Peter's profession of faith that He, Jesus, is "Son of the living God." What that implies is that the gates of hell will certainly try to prevail. There have been some pretty serious battles on that battleground, from the persecutions of the early Christians, to the initial Moslem conquests that took over the Holy Land and North Africa and made their way into Spain on the east and Anatolia in the west, to the Crusades, the Black Plague, the Spanish Inquisition, the Reformation, to the World Wars and Nazism and Russian Communism. And these battles have not all been external. The attacks are internal as well, the battleground is the human soul, and there have been priests and monks, nuns and even Popes who have succumbed. But these battles have not prevailed against the Church, and the Church is actually more open and honest today than ever before. When abuses are brought to light, they are now publicly apologized for by the Holy Father. Isn't this progress? The Church has weathered these storms and the gates of hell still have not prevailed.

Did it take too long for this story to come out? Yes. Should it ever have happened? No. But the Church is still there, maybe kinder and gentler since Vatican II. But if the gates of hell weren't trying to prevail, we wouldn't need a Church. This is just from a Catholic perspective. I also believe the history of the Jews shows the same thing, the constant attacks by the enemy on all fronts.


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