The Return of the Texas Creationist School Board Chairman

Science • Views: 16,642

Like a creationist zombie film franchise that returns for sequel after bad sequel, dentist Don McLeroy — the appallingly ignorant Biblical literalist appointed twice by Texas Governor Rick Perry to be in charge of the education of Texan children — is back in the running. Reports of his dismissal were apparently premature.

In a surprise meeting on the Senate floor, the Senate Nominations Committee in Austin has just approved the appointment of Don McLeroy as chairman of the Texas State Board of Education. It appears that McLeroy’s supporters plan to bring his confirmation to the full Senate early next week. Confirmation will require a two-thirds vote.

Committee Chairman Mike Jackson, R-La Porte, had said he would not bring up McLeroy’s confirmation for a vote in committee unless he thought there were enough votes to get it in the full Senate. We don’t know at this point whether opposition from nearly all Democrats and some Republicans has softened, but the signs are alarming.

If you haven’t done so already, it’s critical that you contact your senator and tell him or her that you oppose McLeroy’s confirmation. You can find the name and contact information for your senator here.

Texas Freedom Network President Kathy Miller has released the following statement:

“If the Texas Senate genuinely cares about quality public education, they will reject as state board chairman a man who apparently agrees that parents who want to teach their kids about evolution are monsters. And we’ll see whether senators really want a chairman who presides over a board that is so focused on ‘culture war’ battles that it has made Texas look like an educational backwater to the rest of the country.”

Jump to bottom

274 comments
1 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:58:20pm

I'll just let an Elton John song give my initial reaction:

2 Steffan  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:59:38pm

Just what is their major malfunction?

What part of "creationism = religion" do they not understand?

3 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:00:31pm

Maybe there is a link to the mercury in amalgam fillings and diminished brain function after all.

4 Bubbaman  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:01:55pm

Oy!

5 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:02:04pm

re: #2 Steffan

Just what is their major malfunction?

What part of "creationism = religion" do they not understand?

They understand that, but they think that the First Amendment is wrong and should be ignored since it is getting the way of establishing 'properly Christian' education. Such thinking is fanatical, short-sighted, and foolish.

6 Gella  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:03:13pm

don't they have anything better to to?

7 quickjustice  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:04:29pm

Terminator, Part XIX: Texas Becomes Gigantic Jurassic Park!

8 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:05:50pm

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Let's say for sake of argument that is our scientific hypothesis.

How do we begin to test it?

9 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:05:56pm

Why do the legislators of my fine state keep doing this?

10 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:07:04pm

And people keep complaining that I'm exaggerating the GOP's addiction to creationism.

11 anchors_aweigh  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:07:34pm

re: #9 Guanxi88

Why do the legislators of my fine state keep doing this?

At least they are not raising your taxes.

12 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:07:59pm
13 Racer X  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:08:05pm

Heh.

And people complain about California.

14 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:08:27pm

re: #11 anchors_aweigh

At least they are not raising your taxes.

No ... they're just destroying children's minds.

15 Gella  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:10:11pm

re: #13 Racer X

Heh.

And people complain about California.

or Illinois

16 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:10:37pm

re: #8 jcm

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Let's say for sake of argument that is our scientific hypothesis.

How do we begin to test it?

For beginners, you need to properly state it as a hypothesis. Just being a sentence doesn't automatically make it a hypothesis.

Right, Wrong, and Meaningless

• "Why do I keep dropping things?"
• "It’s the shoons."
• "What are shoons?"
• "Invisible beings that pull things out of your hands and throw them on the floor."
• "Why would I believe that?"
• "Well, if you can’t disprove it, you have to believe it."
• "But you didn’t prove it."
• "I can feel them. You can feel them too You’re just in denial."
• "Well I don’t believe it."
• "So you are an ashoonist."
• "What’s an ashoonist?"
• "One who arbitrarily refuses to believe in shoons. You wonder why you drop things, but you arbitrarily reject the explanation."
• "Okay then, I’m an ashoonist."
• "But ashoonists are all cynics and killjoys! Is that the kind of company you want to keep?"


What a silly way to argue! Or is it? If you separate the method of argument from the content, then you might notice that it is the most common of all methods of argument: the arbitrary declaration. They say that something is so, and you have to either disprove it or agree with it. Refusing to do either is joining the Meanies.

It’s a paradox. You cannot reject an assertion without reason, but you could waste the whole day finding reasons to reject arbitrary assertions. An epistemology of reason solves the paradox by taking away permission to make assertions in the first place without reasons.

Come to think of it, where did that permission come from? If an assertion does not come with an observable connection to reality, why would anybody pay attention to it? Well, if it has to be either right or wrong, then you have to decide which, and you have to be reasonable. So you can’t reject anything without disproving it.

But what if a statement could be something else besides right or wrong? What if it could also be simply meaningless?

Right and wrong are relationships to reality – correspondence and non-correspondence. To judge a statement as right or wrong, you compare it to reality, by finding what part of reality it compares to. If a statement does not say what part of reality it compares to, then it is presented without connection to reality. It could mean all sorts of things, depending on where it fits in reality. Since that is not specified, it means nothing. It conveys words, but not meaning. Since you cannot call it right, and you cannot call it wrong, you call it arbitrary. Arbitrary means lacking any evidence of a relationship to reality.

To treat arbitrary assertions as right is to be a self-made sucker. To treat them as wrong is to try judging without evidence. The objective way is to realize that assertions without evidence are meaningless. No matter how much emotion they contain, nothing has been said.

Here’s a completion of the original argument:

• "Wait! Before you told me about the shoons, was I a shoonist, or an ashoonist?"
• "Well, neither. That word just meant nothing to you."
• "And it still means nothing to me. Try me again when you’ve got evidence."

17 Last Mohican  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:10:47pm

I noticed this among the comments:

The fundamentalists are organized and energized, while the mainstream types are not. TFN has a great network, but it’s not enough. We need groups organizing under multiple umbrellas, but even the Science Teachers Association of Texas did next to nothing. (They originally proposed new science standards but otherwise stayed out of the politics.)


That may be an important point. Until Charles started these creationism threads, it never would have occurred to me that, in the twenty-first century, there are people who are trying to force creationism into science education. And it never would have occurred to me that there was any need to organize against them.

18 anchors_aweigh  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:11:49pm

re: #14 Charles

No ... they're just destroying children's minds.

Really? My children were all educated in Texas. Not a destroyed mind in the lot. In fact, just the opposite occurred.

20 itellu3times  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:13:39pm

You see, this is the real problem with intelligent design - intelligence is too rare a commodity, to depend on. Stupidity is far more abundant and persistent. Why doesn't McLeroy stick to dental hygiene anyway, which maybe he actually knows something about.

21 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:14:22pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

Really? My children were all educated in Texas. Not a destroyed mind in the lot. In fact, just the opposite occurred.

Do you support Creationism being taught as science as part of the school curriculum?

22 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:14:40pm

re: #16 gmsc

*GRIN*

I knew someone would take me up on that!

23 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:15:40pm
25 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:17:04pm

re: #14 Charles

No ... they're just destroying children's minds.

I homeschooled my oldest daughter in high school. Before I really knew better, I enrolled her in a co-op biology class at church. They used A-Beka, which is a Christian textbook publisher, and they did teach creationism. However, they also explained evolution (and why they thought it was wrong, of course). We were actually talking about it this morning (she is now a college graduate), and it did her no harm whatsoever. She is well aware that evolution is a proven fact. I wouldn't recommend this approach, and I certainly don't want creationism in school, but it wasn't the end of the world.

26 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:17:44pm

re: #24 HelloDare

Come on Texans. Why won't you trust you trust this man with your kids?

Maybe it is just me, but that pictures makes me think pedophile.

27 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:19:05pm

re: #18 anchors_aweigh

Really? My children were all educated in Texas. Not a destroyed mind in the lot. In fact, just the opposite occurred.

My ex was educated, if you want to call it that, at Falwell's Liberty University. It took years for her to unlearn the garbage they put into her head there. If their approach to teaching science gains hold in Texas, children of all faiths there will be getting their brains addled in this way courtesy of their public education.

28 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:19:19pm

re: #25 doppelganglander

I homeschooled my oldest daughter in high school. Before I really knew better, I enrolled her in a co-op biology class at church. They used A-Beka, which is a Christian textbook publisher, and they did teach creationism. However, they also explained evolution (and why they thought it was wrong, of course). We were actually talking about it this morning (she is now a college graduate), and it did her no harm whatsoever. She is well aware that evolution is a proven fact. I wouldn't recommend this approach, and I certainly don't want creationism in school, but it wasn't the end of the world.

That school was clearly marked as a sectarian institution using sectarian criteria, which were NOT the State's. It also didn't take State funds off my pocket to do the (mis)educating.

29 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:21:06pm

re: #25 doppelganglander

I homeschooled my oldest daughter in high school. Before I really knew better, I enrolled her in a co-op biology class at church. They used A-Beka, which is a Christian textbook publisher, and they did teach creationism. However, they also explained evolution (and why they thought it was wrong, of course). We were actually talking about it this morning (she is now a college graduate), and it did her no harm whatsoever. She is well aware that evolution is a proven fact. I wouldn't recommend this approach, and I certainly don't want creationism in school, but it wasn't the end of the world.

That's good to hear, but your daughter may be an exception to the rule, because a recent study has shown that children indoctrinated with creationist beliefs are much more likely to reject the science of evolution when they grow up.

31 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:22:00pm

re: #28 Zimriel

That school was clearly marked as a sectarian institution using sectarian criteria, which were NOT the State's. It also didn't take State funds off my pocket to do the (mis)educating.

Of course. I paid my $180 and bought the book myself. I should have specified I don't want creationism taught in public school. And I did say I regret sending her to the class, although aside from evolution it was excellent.

32 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:24:30pm

re: #29 Charles

That's good to hear, but your daughter may be an exception to the rule, because a recent study has shown that children indoctrinated with creationist beliefs are much more likely to reject the science of evolution when they grow up.

That's probably true. Most people don't question what they've been taught.

33 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:27:33pm

All your Darwinated Chirren are belong to us.

34 reine.de.tout  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:27:33pm

re: #32 doppelganglander

That's probably true. Most people don't question what they've been taught.

Or have you for a mom.

35 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:28:59pm

re: #33 BigPapa

All your Darwinated Chirren are belong to us.

Somebody set us up the creationism?

36 John Neverbend  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:29:16pm

re: #26 FurryOldGuyJeans

Maybe it is just me, but that pictures makes me think pedophile.

George Costanza with a moustache? Given his outdated views on at least one branch of science, I wonder if he uses anaesthesia on his patients or prefers leeches.

37 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:30:33pm

Prager has a hard time with Ida too. I hope he doesn't go IDer on me, there's not many left.

38 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:30:36pm

re: #32 doppelganglander

That's probably true. Most people don't question what they've been taught.

Was a time the key thing taught was critical thinking.

39 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:31:32pm

OT - nice to see a new centre-right British blog putting LGF of it's blogroll.

This is the new site of Edmund Standing, regular contributer to Harry's Place:

Pro British Anti Extremist

40 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:32:00pm

"can you rise up from the valley and don the ARMOR OF THE LORD?"

41 IslandLibertarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:32:24pm
42 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:33:09pm

re: #41 IslandLibertarian

Using leeches is a proven medical method.

So they're healthy and delicious?

43 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:33:45pm

re: #34 reine.de.tout

Or have you for a mom.

You're sweet. I was actually pretty clueless about creationism at the time, but my views have ... evolved.

44 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:33:48pm

re: #35 gmsc

Somebody set us up the creationism?

Creationists: You scientist are on the path to destruction. You have no escape. Make good your time!

45 John Neverbend  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:33:54pm

re: #41 IslandLibertarian

Using leeches is a proven medical method.

Not in dentistry, it isn't.

46 IslandLibertarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:33:59pm

re: #42 Cognito

unless you're a vegan...?...

47 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:34:19pm

re: #42 Cognito

So they're healthy and delicious?

Hello, Cognito! How are you doing today?

48 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:34:55pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Hello, Cognito! How are you doing today?

Rockin' along. You?

49 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:35:12pm

re: #37 BigPapa

Prager has a hard time with Ida too. I hope he doesn't go IDer on me, there's not many left.

How can someone have a problem with a fossil?

It is what it is.

Unless someone can challenge it in some way, it remains what it is.

Sure they're be debate over some of the conclusions reached about Ida, but folks better have a better argument than I'd don't like it.

50 big steve  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:35:23pm

re: #29 Charles

That's good to hear, but your daughter may be an exception to the rule, because a recent study has shown that children indoctrinated with creationist beliefs are much more likely to reject the science of evolution when they grow up.

boy I would love to get a hold of that study.....do you have a link?

51 IslandLibertarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:35:38pm

re: #45 John Neverbend

oh, so now you want to split hairs.........'cept, ol' Don is lacking..........

52 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:36:12pm

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

Creationists: You scientist are on the path to destruction. You have no escape. Make good your time!

All your young earths are now belong to us!

HAHAHAHAHA!

53 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:36:37pm

re: #48 Cognito

Rockin' along. You?

Playing beat-the-clock on my quotas. I either make two key quotas this month or I'm fired. The good news is that I've got the hours and help I need. I'll make them, but it's going to take a maximum effort.

54 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:37:13pm

re: #45 John Neverbend

Using leeches is a proven medical method.
Not in dentistry, it isn't.

Well that made me throw up in my mouth!

55 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:37:46pm

re: #37 BigPapa

Prager has changed a bit in these last few years, I think, on how he is handling challenges to his worldview.

Years ago I listened to him when he started his stint on the ReligionOnTheLine radio program (in LA.) After he left that gig he started to become more political.

A while back he had a full-on meltdown over global warming, right in the middle of a presentation that specifically wasn't about AGW. It was an interesting (and sad) video to watch, because you could see his physical demeanor change right in front of you as he started a rant denying AGW. When that rant was done, his physical demeanor changed back into a milder, calmer Prager.

Strong challenges to a person's fundamental worldview brings up all sorts of stuff.

56 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:38:08pm
57 jorline  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:38:47pm

Pat Boone is on FOX wearing his formal "prison orange" suit.

Hey Pat...tone it down will ya!

58 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:39:02pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Playing beat-the-clock on my quotas. I either make two key quotas this month or I'm fired. The good news is that I've got the hours and help I need. I'll make them, but it's going to take a maximum effort.

"Warp speed, Scotty."

59 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:39:07pm

re: #55 freetoken

Prager has changed a bit in these last few years, I think, on how he is handling challenges to his worldview.

Years ago I listened to him when he started his stint on the ReligionOnTheLine radio program (in LA.) After he left that gig he started to become more political.

A while back he had a full-on meltdown over global warming, right in the middle of a presentation that specifically wasn't about AGW. It was an interesting (and sad) video to watch, because you could see his physical demeanor change right in front of you as he started a rant denying AGW. When that rant was done, his physical demeanor changed back into a milder, calmer Prager.

Strong challenges to a person's fundamental worldview brings up all sorts of stuff.


Standing on a stacking of turtles is precarious! If you upset me I may fall off!

60 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:39:27pm

re: #52 jcm

All your young earths are now belong to us!

HAHAHAHAHA!

Launch all logic.

you know what you must do.

For Great Lizard!

Those are take-offs from the final lines from Zero Wing's open scenes (Zero Wing being the game whose lines we're borrowing.)

61 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:39:44pm

re: #41 IslandLibertarian

Using leeches is a proven medical method.

Are we talking about Creationism, or are we talking about California government?

62 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:39:47pm

5 minutes with Richard Dawkins

Celebrities and news-makers get grilled in exactly five minutes by Matthew Stadlen in a series for the BBC News website.

This week, evolutionary biologist, atheist and author Richard Dawkins talks about death, being good and the point of life.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

63 John Neverbend  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:40:05pm

re: #54 Alouette

Well that made me throw up in my mouth!

I don't wish to be vulgar, but where else does one throw up?

64 big steve  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:40:45pm

re: #56 buzzsawmonkey

What's the news on that fellow Walker who was running for Texas School Board?

I believe he was running for a local school Board.....SBOE elections are not until this fall.

65 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:41:12pm

re: #55 freetoken

I only started listening to him recently: his demeanor and logic/philosophical focus is what's most appealing. Between him and Dennis Miller, nobody else really interests me.

He didn't quite 'go there' towards melt down land, but he has a problem with thinking 'we came from lemurs.' He didn't dispute the fossil or significance per se, but he is thinking of all the atheist/evolutionists (as if that's what they are all) saying 'a ha! Here it is!'

That's what seemed to be his issue.

67 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:41:55pm

re: #58 Cognito

"Warp speed, Scotty."

"I'm givin' it all I'm got, Cognito!"

BTW, did you like the new Star Trek?

68 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:42:53pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

"I'm givin' it all I'm got, Cognito!"

BTW, did you like the new Star Trek?

Haven't seen it, I'm afraid. Been a bit hectic. I'll check it out, though.

69 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:43:05pm

re: #55 freetoken

Strong challenges to a person's fundamental worldview brings up all sorts of stuff.

I've noticed that too.

70 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:43:11pm

re: #66 HelloDare


NYT: Pentagon holding back report showing 1 in 7 freed Gitmo detainees returned to terrorism

The honeymoon is over, the emperor needs to get a tailor.

71 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:43:14pm

re: #66 HelloDare


NYT: Pentagon holding back report showing 1 in 7 freed Gitmo detainees returned to terrorism

Gotta be honest. I'm surprised it's not more than one in seven.

72 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:44:20pm

re: #71 Cognito

Gotta be honest. I'm surprised it's not more than one in seven.

Lower than I would have expected also.

73 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:44:51pm

Rod Steward on American Idol totally embarrassing himself....
must have a new album out

74 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:45:03pm
75 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:45:29pm

re: #66 HelloDare


NYT: Pentagon holding back report showing 1 in 7 freed Gitmo detainees returned to terrorism

No surprise. The report wouldn't change Obama's mind due to ideological reasons. That report is lose-lose for the Pentagon.

76 IslandLibertarian  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:45:44pm

re: #71 Cognito

Gotta be honest. I'm surprised it's not more than one in seven.

that's a little more than 14%
to many for me, if I may say so.

77 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:46:07pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Playing beat-the-clock on my quotas. I either make two key quotas this month or I'm fired. The good news is that I've got the hours and help I need. I'll make them, but it's going to take a maximum effort.

Do you work in a David Mamet play? That sounds like a tough environment. I wish you the best.

78 CapeCoddah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:46:47pm

re: #57 jorline

Pat Boone is on FOX wearing his formal "prison orange" suit.

Hey Pat...tone it down will ya!

LOL, He looks like he showed up in a Coast Guard approved survival suit!... It sure is orange!

79 doppelganglander  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:46:52pm

re: #73 HoosierHoops

Rod Steward on American Idol totally embarrassing himself....
must have a new album out

This is why I'm not tuning in until the last 10 minutes. Since that's coming up soon, I'm out.

80 Bob Dillon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:47:01pm

re: #10 Charles

And people keep complaining that I'm exaggerating the GOP's addiction to creationism.

Hammer away Charles ... it's no exaggeration. Gotta wake folks up if only one at a time.

81 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:48:21pm

re: #76 IslandLibertarian

that's a little more than 14%
to many for me, if I may say so.

Oh, too many of course. But I would have expected 100% recidivism, really. Or something close.

82 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:48:36pm

Good grief.

Pat Boone just pulled out a sewing machine belt that his parents used to beat him with, to excuse the police who savagely beat an unconscious car chase suspect.

"Look at this! My momma beat me and my brother with this belt, and I turned out jes' fine!"

No, Pat. You didn't.

83 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:48:56pm

re: #42 Cognito

So they're healthy and delicious?

And Fish like them too!

84 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:48:57pm

re: #74 buzzsawmonkey

That jackass should shut the hell up about "death, being good and the point of life"--just as people who believe in Biblical literalism should shut the hell up about science.

Are you saying that atheists don't have the right to voice their opinions on these topics - "death, being good, and the point of life"? Or is it just Richard Dawkins?

85 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:49:41pm

re: #65 BigPapa

In his younger years Prager seemed to be the uber-rational. About the only thing that could set him off was someone hinting at Nazism.

The response to Ida is very revealing, partly because in the big picture Ida is not as fundamental to the challenge of Creationism as, say, Lucy is. Ida shows that there was a particular transitional form in the history of the Primates, while Lucy showed a definite ancestor to Homo.

Over time, as more an more fossils are discovered, I expect the meltdowns to get stronger among those who up till now have had the luxury of appearing to sit on the fence - paying homage to modernism or science (and thus sounding educated) while at the same time servicing their customer base. Limbaugh and Prager are just the latest in a long line of people who have wanted it both ways.

The time honored tradition of let's-not-look-in-that-closet is being challenged daily by science (and medicine and engineering).

When the bat guano will really hit the fan will happen when the first human undergoes genetic engineering.

86 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:49:51pm

re: #82 Charles

Good grief.

Pat Boone just pulled out a sewing machine belt that his parents used to beat him with, to excuse the police who savagely beat an unconscious car chase suspect.

"Look at this! My momma beat me and my brother with this belt, and I turned out jes' fine!"

No, Pat. You didn't.

Oh, ouch. I've never known Pat to be a bad sort.

Was he really making a 1:1 comparison with the unconscious-beating incident?

87 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:49:52pm

re: #77 doppelganglander

Do you work in a David Mamet play? That sounds like a tough environment. I wish you the best.

No, it's not Glengarry Glen Ross, since I'm not a good liar. It just a need to make quotas. I sell mobile phones and my company is trying to maximize new lines. Word came down: Meet the quotas or get written up. If I get written up, I'm fired. So, I will make my quotas, end of story. I will not fail.

88 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:50:46pm

re: #84 Jimmah

I'll rephrase that, in anticipation of a likely objection :

Are you saying that atheists shouldn't voice their opinions on these topics - "death, being good, and the point of life"? Or is it just Richard Dawkins?

89 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:50:50pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

No, it's not Glengarry Glen Ross, since I'm not a good liar. It just a need to make quotas. I sell mobile phones and my company is trying to maximize new lines. Word came down: Meet the quotas or get written up. If I get written up, I'm fired. So, I will make my quotas, end of story. I will not fail.

Get thyself away from thy computer.

90 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:50:53pm

re: #3 HelloDare

Maybe there is a link to the mercury in amalgam fillings and diminished brain function after all.

No that's not it. I'm proof... :)

91 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:51:47pm

re: #63 John Neverbend

I don't wish to be vulgar, but where else does one throw up?

The Toilet?

92 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:52:20pm

re: #74 buzzsawmonkey

It's precisely because atheist missionaries like Dawkins get their jollies by poking religion and those who believe in it with sticks that the creationists are able to rally and inflame people.

And that is like blaming Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq for Islamic fundamentalism.

93 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:53:15pm

re: #73 HoosierHoops

Rod Steward on American Idol totally embarrassing himself....
must have a new album out

It certainly did seem that he had a face full of something. Hard liquor maybe.

94 jorline  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:53:38pm

re: #82 Charles

Good grief.

Pat Boone just pulled out a sewing machine belt that his parents used to beat him with, to excuse the police who savagely beat an unconscious car chase suspect.

"Look at this! My momma beat me and my brother with this belt, and I turned out jes' fine!"

No, Pat. You didn't.

lmao...spare the rod syndrome.

Hell, I got whippings with a willow switch...I wouldn't wish that anyone.

95 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:53:47pm

re: #37 BigPapa

Prager has a hard time with Ida too. I hope he doesn't go IDer on me, there's not many left.

Prager doesn't understand evolution. At all.

Here is part of his column

'Things you have to believe to vote Republican': A response

One of the more popular anti-Republican documents making the rounds on the Internet is titled "Things You Have to Believe to Vote Republican Today." Its popularity is exceeded only by its shallowness, which renders the document much more reflective of the liberals who admire it than of the Republicans it attacks. But given its popularity, I offer brief responses to its claims (space limitations and triviality prevented me from responding to three of them).

[ snip ]

Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

Response: Global warming may well be taking place. But it may be too soon to know for sure — not long ago we were warned about global cooling. The question that is open to scientific debate is what is causing the global warming that may be happening.

Most conservatives do not want creationism taught in schools and have no trouble with teaching evolution. But if evolution is taught as meaning all life, including human, just happened by itself, that is beyond science — that is the teaching of atheism. And many of us, including vast numbers of scientists, think that children and society do better learning that there is a moral and purposeful God that created the world (and perhaps evolution as well).

96 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:53:59pm

re: #74 buzzsawmonkey

It's precisely because atheist missionaries like Dawkins get their jollies by poking religion and those who believe in it with sticks that the creationists are able to rally and inflame people.

That's what turns me off about rabid atheists: they become what they rail against. Instead of merely not believing in God, they zealously have to prove there is no God and ridicule any and all belief. That's too bad about Hitchens, he's otherwise pretty smart, but he's got a chip on his shoulder and just can't reconcile with it.

97 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:54:24pm
98 Bob Dillon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:54:28pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

No, it's not Glengarry Glen Ross, since I'm not a good liar. It just a need to make quotas. I sell mobile phones and my company is trying to maximize new lines. Word came down: Meet the quotas or get written up. If I get written up, I'm fired. So, I will make my quotas, end of story. I will not fail.

Urgency is a good motivator on both sides of the sales equation.

99 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:54:30pm

Speaking of Pat Boone, I just checked out WND, one of Pat's favorite hang outs.

Wow, full on nutty today. Screaming headline on 'nirthing. Special sale on video showing Darwinism -> Hitler.

100 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:54:49pm

re: #82 Charles

Thread-worthy

101 CapeCoddah  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:54:55pm

re: #82 Charles

That one had me... too. I am a HUGE fan of police, not so much of people like the guy they beat,, but c'mon, the guy is unconscious. Zero excuse. Pat cited stress and pressure. These guys and gals are tested to make sure they RESTRAIN themselves in situations just such as those. Situations where most humans first instinct is to say, put a bullet thru the head of a man who rapes and buries a 5 year old alive. They MUST control themselves. If they cannot, they must not wear a badge.

102 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:54:56pm

re: #89 Cognito

Get thyself away from thy computer.

Why? Today is my day off. I'm already going to come in on two days off later this month. I needed to rest today so that I could work effectively. I'm back to work on Friday and I fully expect to pull ahead of both of my quotas (I'm already ahead on one of them) on that day.

103 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:55:24pm

re: #93 Truck Monkey

It certainly did seem that he had a face full of something. Hard liquor maybe.

Wow! We are the champions on AI.. Totally rocks..
We need to fire some producers

104 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:55:50pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

No, it's not Glengarry Glen Ross, since I'm not a good liar. It just a need to make quotas. I sell mobile phones and my company is trying to maximize new lines. Word came down: Meet the quotas or get written up. If I get written up, I'm fired. So, I will make my quotas, end of story. I will not fail.

It's been a while since I did some on-line cartwheels but, here it goes:

GO FALCON! GO FALCON! GO! GO! GO! GOOOOO FALCONNNNNNNN!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

rah!

105 Bob Dillon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:56:37pm

re: #94 jorline

lmao...spare the rod syndrome.

Hell, I got whippings with a willow switch...I wouldn't wish that anyone.

My step mother preferred a wire coat hangar - I didn't save one as a memento tho.

106 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:56:46pm

re: #104 MandyManners

It's been a while since I did some on-line cartwheels but, here it goes:

GO FALCON! GO FALCON! GO! GO! GO! GOOOOO FALCONNNNNNNN!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

rah!

Thinking of the hunky neighbor, eh? ;)

107 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:57:18pm

re: #94 jorline

lmao...spare the rod syndrome.

Hell, I got whippings with a willow switch...I wouldn't wish that anyone.

Wooden Spoon with holes drilled in them. Less resistance to wind or drag coefficient. I certainly didn't enjoy the beatings I got.

108 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:57:33pm

Anyone ever read through this refuse (garbage) written by McLeroy?

Historical Reality
Copernicus’ “Heliocentric” Hypothesis—Yes
Darwin’s “Common Descent” Hypothesis—NO

He has an odd entry there:

Historical Science

13. Since conventional science has been so successful in other fields, such as chemistry, physiology and physics, there is a belief that science can answer everything. Biologic origins, however, occupy what is properly referred to as “historical” science.
14. The goal of “historical” science is to reconstruct the past. Ex. Archeology and parts of anthropology, geology and evolutionary biology.
15. Philosopher Karl Popper doubts “historical” science is science at all.

Given his superstitious views on evolution I can only conclude that he has similar "feelings" regarding anthropology and geology.

109 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:57:52pm

Pat Boone jumped the shark eons ago....he was finished after his first hit...

110 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:57:55pm
111 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:58:05pm

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey

I'm saying that it depends what the priorities are. If the priority is to get people, religious or not, to understand that science and religion do not belong in the same classroom, then Dawkins fatmouthing around about atheism is a detriment, not a help.

If the priority is to feel good about promoting atheism in a manner that will make it easy for those who want religion wrongly comingled with science to say, "See? See? Evolution = atheism!", then by all means have at it.

Agreed. That is my position as well. Dawkins is a skilled scientist, but his outspoken atheism gives creationists ammunition.

112 Killian Bundy  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:59:09pm

Specter defends Pelosi, questions CIA's honesty

Sen. Arlen Specter (D-Pa.) took the opportunity Wednesday to defend House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who has come under fire in recent weeks over a controversy surrounding when she was told of the use of enhanced interrogation techniques being used by the CIA.

"The CIA has a very bad record when it comes to — I was about to say 'candid'; that's too mild — to honesty," Specter, a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said in a lunch address to the American Law Institute. He cited misleading information about the agency's involvement in mining harbors in Nicaragua and the Iran-Contra affair.

/yeah, this'll help

113 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:59:21pm

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey

Child-rearing had to be belt-driven in Pat Boone's time, because people couldn't afford a separate motor for each child.

//////////

So many jokes. So many horrific, unpublishable jokes.

114 The Shadow Do  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:59:24pm

Just sent this to my TX State Senator (R):

To Senator Bob Deuell

Science is science. Religious philosophy is not science, and I hope that you agree. The Scopes trial was settled in the 19th century and surely does not need to be re-fought in Texas today. I am a Republican voter and have been since I punched a presidential ticket for Ford. It is very disturbing to see the R party (ostensibly the party of reason)taking this fraudulent ID position again and again of late - and presently personified by Mr McLeroy. I trust it is not yours.

Sincerely yours,
The Shadow Do

115 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:59:26pm

OT: A few weeks back, a 28-year-old officer here in Las Vegas was killed in a car accident with a drunk driver while he was on his way to respond to a domestic violence call.

At least that was the story we kept hearing on the local news. So far, about the only thing that's still as it was originally reported is that the officer was responding to a domestic violence call.

1) The driver who hit the officer had been drinking, but didn't have a high enough BAC to be considered legally drunk. He was released later on the day of the accident.

2) Police cars here is Las Vegas are not allowed to exceed 90 MPH. According to the police car's equivalent of the "black box", he was going 109 MPH at the time of the accident. The black box also showed 2 other interesting things.

3) The police car's lights and sirens has not been turned on at the time of the accident.

4) Even if he had been going 90 MPH with his lights and sirens on, he'd most likely still be dead as a result of the accident, because . . . wait for it . . . he wasn't wearing his seat belt!

116 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:59:28pm

re: #74 buzzsawmonkey

That jackass should shut the hell up about "death, being good and the point of life"--just as people who believe in Biblical literalism should shut the hell up about science.

It cuts both ways.

It's precisely because atheist missionaries like Dawkins get their jollies by poking religion and those who believe in it with sticks that the creationists are able to rally and inflame people.

Dawkins is to non-biology-related questions as Noam Chomsky is to non-linguistic questions. He's part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Wow. That is such an asinine post I had to look twice to make sure it wasn't someone pretending to be you.

117 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:59:34pm

re: #104 MandyManners

It's been a while since I did some on-line cartwheels but, here it goes:

GO FALCON! GO FALCON! GO! GO! GO! GOOOOO FALCONNNNNNNN!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

rah!

Three cheers of thanks for Many!

Hip, hip, hurray!
Hip, hip, hurray!
HIP, HIP, HURRAY!

118 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:00:04pm

Pat....fair warning but you gotta hear this....c"mon home to your adobe!

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

119 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:00:06pm

re: #101 CapeCoddah

That one had me... too. I am a HUGE fan of police, not so much of people like the guy they beat,, but c'mon, the guy is unconscious. Zero excuse. Pat cited stress and pressure. These guys and gals are tested to make sure they RESTRAIN themselves in situations just such as those. Situations where most humans first instinct is to say, put a bullet thru the head of a man who rapes and buries a 5 year old alive. They MUST control themselves. If they cannot, they must not wear a badge.

If I was a cop my nightstick would be out for parking tickets. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. It looks to me like the suspect went out of his way to try and run over a police officer. He is lucky they didn't just shoot him.

120 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:00:41pm
121 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:00:53pm

Do zombies (with the exception of our own LGF version) spontaneously generate?

Perhaps this guy is more like the political version of Michael Meyers or Jason Voorhies--just when you think they're dead and you turn your back on them...

122 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:01:01pm

re: #103 HoosierHoops

Wow! We are the champions on AI.. Totally rocks..
We need to fire some producers

What's old is new again. Background noise.

123 CapeCoddah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:01:08pm

re: #114 The Shadow Do

Just sent this to my TX State Senator (R):

Sincerely yours,
The Shadow Do

Shadow, Scopes was 1925, 20th century.

124 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:01:20pm

re: #116 Naso Tang

Wow. That is such an asinine post I had to look twice to make sure it wasn't someone pretending to be you.

Actually I thought buzz was spot on.

125 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:01:57pm

re: #104 MandyManners

It's been a while since I did some on-line cartwheels but, here it goes:

GO FALCON! GO FALCON! GO! GO! GO! GOOOOO FALCONNNNNNNN!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

rah!

You really ought to wear something under the cheerleader outfit!

//

126 freedombilly  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:02:01pm

A state the size of Texas and they keep coming up with this dishonest clown?

The GOP is in trouble and our entire as is our entire country if there is not a viable alternative to the Messiah and his drones.

And most people don't refer to creationists as a viable alternative.

127 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:02:49pm

re: #109 albusteve

Pat Boone jumped the shark eons ago....he was finished after his first hit...

He had a hit?

128 Bob Dillon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:03:47pm

re: #127 Truck Monkey

He had a hit?

Love letters in the sand.

129 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:04:09pm

re: #126 freedombilly

A state the size of Texas and they keep coming up with this dishonest clown?

The GOP is in trouble and our entire as is our entire country if there is not a viable alternative to the Messiah and his drones.

And most people don't refer to creationists as a viable alternative.

it's just beginning...this will go on for decades....Michael Valentine Smith comes to mind

130 CapeCoddah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:04:31pm

re: #119 Truck Monkey

If I was a cop my nightstick would be out for parking tickets. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. It looks to me like the suspect went out of his way to try and run over a police officer. He is lucky they didn't just shoot him.

I saw what he did, the bastard. I considered becoming a police officer, took the exam, and did very well. When my dad asked me how I thought I would do in a specific horiffic stiuation, the Jeffrey Curley murder here in 1997, if I had been the one to arrest the guys, I decided against it. Dad had a good point. I would have popped them.

131 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:04:44pm

re: #127 Truck Monkey

He had a hit?

several, but the damage was minimal

132 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:04:45pm

Down-dingers so far: rob.schmitt, sadatoni. Neither of these two has posted a comment. Come on out, trolls! Come out and face the clear light of reason and truth!

133 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:05:09pm

re: #125 Truck Monkey

You really ought to wear something under the cheerleader outfit!

//

The mind boggles--it really does.//

My favorite cheer:

Rick'em rack'um
sick'em suck'em
Get out there
and really FIGHT!

(that's early Robin Williams)

134 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:05:27pm

re: #128 Bobibutu

Love letters in the sand.

He had a hit?

135 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:05:29pm

re: #127 Truck Monkey

He had a hit?

But he never inhaled.

136 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:05:52pm

re: #133 calcajun

Is that from Aladdin?

137 freedombilly  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:05:56pm

re: #129 albusteve

I fear you are right.re: #132 Dark_Falcon

Down-dingers so far: rob.schmitt, sadatoni. Neither of these two has posted a comment. Come on out, trolls! Come out and face the clear light of reason and truth!

Good luck with that Dark Falcon...Easier to ding and run!

138 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:05:56pm

re: #129 albusteve

it's just beginning...this will go on for decades....Michael Valentine Smith comes to mind

We're arguing over who owns Mars?

/

139 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:06:13pm

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

or at least howls of derisive laughter.

140 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:06:49pm

re: #136 Cognito

earlier than that--way earlier, like late 70's.

141 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:06:52pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. That is my position as well. Dawkins is a skilled scientist, but his outspoken atheism gives creationists ammunition.

Oh please.. Dawkins can grate, but for every Dawkins there are hundreds of preachers on TV telling everyone "else" that they are going to hell. Why don't you also suggest they should stay in the closet too and shut the F up?

142 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:07:11pm

re: #138 OldLineTexan

We're arguing over who owns Mars?

/

no...we are arguing over who owns Pat Boone...you want 'im?

143 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:07:21pm

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey

I find that some people have this impression of Dawkins as being 'rabid' that is actually completely unjustified, when one reads his books or watches his interviews. Who is it that has been calling him 'rabid' all these years anyway? Right wing religious pundits/creationists etc. Do we take these people seriously?

Dawkins is obviously a vocal atheist, and as an intellectual he of course marshalls the strongest arguments he can to support his position. What's so bad about that?

As for the tactical inadvisability of proponents of evolution also being vocal atheists, there are plenty of proponents of evolution who also have a faith of some sort who are equally vocal. Why shouldn't people get the full picture? I think there is something extremely amiss about the suggestion that scientists should shut up about being a atheists, in case it riles the creationists.

144 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:07:25pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

Thank you for the backhanded compliment. You are welcome to try and explain why you believe it is asinine.

See my last post.

145 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:08:08pm

re: #142 albusteve

no...we are arguing over who owns Pat Boone...you want 'im?

Does he have good taste, or just taste good?

/back to Stranger in a Strange Land
/I grok it

146 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:08:52pm

re: #95 HelloDare

But if evolution is taught as meaning all life, including human, just happened by itself, that is beyond science — that is the teaching of atheism. And many of us, including vast numbers of scientists, think that children and society do better learning that there is a moral and purposeful God that created the world (and perhaps evolution as well).

Evolution is about what, when, how. Not why.

Why is left to religion.

147 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:08:54pm

re: #145 OldLineTexan

Does he have good taste, or just taste good?

/back to Stranger in a Strange Land
/I grok it

LESS FILLING!

148 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:09:04pm

Did Prager just equate evolution with atheism? I expect much more from him there.

149 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:09:23pm

rock on you Patster...

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

150 The Shadow Do  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:10:45pm

re: #123 CapeCoddah

Shadow, Scopes was 1925, 20th century.

Yeah, my bad. Hope the guy listens to the message anyway.

The centuries go by so fast these days.

151 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:10:45pm
Charles Eugene "Pat" Boone (born June 1, 1934) is an American singer, actor and writer who was a successful pop singer in the United States during the 1950s and early 1960s. He sold over 45 million albums, had 38 top-40 hits and starred in over 12 Hollywood movies.

He covered a lot of hits like Little Richards' Long Tall Sally and Fats Dominos' Ain't That A Shame

Forgive me Charles:

152 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:10:45pm

re: #116 Naso Tang

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

153 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:11:12pm

*curtsey*

154 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:11:36pm

re: #153 MandyManners

*curtsey*

Good evening

155 Truck Monkey  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:11:37pm

re: #153 MandyManners

*curtsey*

Why so curt?

156 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:11:47pm

re: #141 Naso Tang

Oh please.. Dawkins can grate, but for every Dawkins there are hundreds of preachers on TV telling everyone "else" that they are going to hell. Why don't you also suggest they should stay in the closet too and shut the F up?

They should indeed back off as well. Issues such as this would be well served by everyone lowering the volume. That said, the I do have to say that this issue is a war of attrition. The views of the two sides cannot be reconciled. The issue can best be summed up by the Duke of Wellington: "Hard pounding this, gentlemen. Let's see who can pound the longest."

157 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:11:48pm

re: #145 OldLineTexan

Does he have good taste, or just taste good?

/back to Stranger in a Strange Land
/I grok it

someday a Messiah will come (via the MSM)...he will be martyred and all religious hell will break loose...imo

158 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:11:51pm

re: #146 jcm

Evolution is about what, when, how. Not why.

Why is left to religion.

And philosophy.

159 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:12:52pm

re: #146 jcm

Evolution is about what, when, how. Not why.

Why is left to religion.

Why is left to philosophy. Religion is a branch of philosophy that believes it has the answer.

(I just made that up :)

160 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:13:06pm

re: #146 jcm

Evolution is about what, when, how. Not why.

Why is left to religion.

Yes, exactly. And Prager is too smart not to know that. Here is a man who can reconcile the omniscience of God and freewill but can't get his head around the fact that evolution says nothing about the origin of life or the universe.

161 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:13:33pm

As I posted above in the spinoffs, reports are coming in about the FBI disrupting a terror plot in the NYC metro area. Four people are under arrest - 4 Muslims (according to the Post) who were planning on bombing two synagogues in the Bronx, and blow up an airplane at Stewart Airport near Newburgh, NY. The four were apparently based in the Newburgh area, and were busted after a lengthy undercover operation.

Developing.

162 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:13:52pm

re: #115 gmsc

That's horrible and very, very sad.

163 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:14:14pm

re: #140 calcajun

earlier than that--way earlier, like late 70's.

Hmm. In Aladdin he apparently performed a reprise:

Rick 'em, rack 'em, rock 'em, rake! Stick that sword into that snake!

164 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:14:24pm

re: #159 Naso Tang

Why is left to philosophy. Religion is a branch of philosophy that believes it has the answer.

(I just made that up :)

I liked it...we have an open booking Sunday afternoons...can you make it?

165 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:14:32pm
Confirmation will require a two-thirds vote.

Here's hoping that threshold is out of reach.

As I said last night concerning Rush- we need science to ensure American prosperity. These folks don't care if they're damning our children and grandchildren to a less advanced American society so long as they're being brought to Jesus. It's not the role of the government or public schools to concern themselves with our eternal salvation. These people need Remedial Civics 101.

166 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:15:46pm

re: #163 Cognito

Yep, that he did. The Genie is G-rated, but Williams' comic personality still shines through hilariously in the role.

167 WindHorse  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:15:58pm

re: #112 Killian Bundy

those junior Senators are always such suck-ups....

168 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:16:04pm

re: #152 Jimmah

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

?

I've read buzzsawmonkey for a while now. I don't think either of you rises to the level of "challenging his worldview". Maybe your worldview just got challenged, but you don't want to admit it.

/Sheesh, "asinine" as a first reply. Nice debate technique.

169 ShanghaiEd  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:16:09pm

re: #55 freetoken

Prager has changed a bit in these last few years, I think, on how he is handling challenges to his worldview.

Years ago I listened to him when he started his stint on the ReligionOnTheLine radio program (in LA.) After he left that gig he started to become more political.

A while back he had a full-on meltdown over global warming, right in the middle of a presentation that specifically wasn't about AGW. It was an interesting (and sad) video to watch, because you could see his physical demeanor change right in front of you as he started a rant denying AGW. When that rant was done, his physical demeanor changed back into a milder, calmer Prager.

Strong challenges to a person's fundamental worldview brings up all sorts of stuff.

I knew Prager was flaky on science, but I'm equally disturbed by his sexist attitude that seems almost as outdated as YEC. Did anybody read this series on marriage advice he wrote for Townhall a while back?

[Link: townhall.com...]

170 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:16:21pm

re: #163 Cognito

That's much cleaner and far less "suggestive" than the stand-up material.

171 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:16:33pm
172 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:16:54pm

This looks interesting - a talk between Richard Dawkins and Paul Davies (a deistic physicist, IIRC):

[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

173 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:17:26pm

uh oh....


[Link: www.imeem.com...]

174 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:17:48pm

re: #167 WindHorse

those junior Senators are always such suck-ups just say the darndest things at that age....

FTFY

175 avanti  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:17:58pm

re: #151 HelloDare

He covered a lot of hits like Little Richards' Long Tall Sally and Fats Dominos' Ain't That A Shame

Forgive me Charles:

[Video]

That's because white kids were not supposed to listen to "negro" music. We'd listen to stations like WLAC to get "real" rock and R & B.

176 The Shadow Do  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:18:11pm

Lebron James is a monster. In a good way.

177 calcajun  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:18:54pm

re: #176 The Shadow Do

I'm at work. What's the score?

178 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:19:11pm

re: #168 OldLineTexan

Maybe your worldview just got challenged

LOL. By what, exactly?

179 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:19:39pm

re: #158 Gus 802

And philosophy.

re: #159 Naso Tang

Why is left to philosophy. Religion is a branch of philosophy that believes it has the answer.

(I just made that up :)

I always count religion and philosophy as close the same thing, one incorporates a diety (ies) the other may not.

180 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:20:15pm

re: #176 The Shadow Do

Lebron James is a monster. In a good way.


He is a monster...total world class talent.Pure bred player..I love that guy..And he is such a nice guy and a wonderful father..

181 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:20:16pm
182 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:20:41pm

re: #178 Jimmah

LOL. By what, exactly?

LOL, why would I care? You're the one jumping up and down.

184 HoosierHoops  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:21:10pm

re: #177 calcajun

I'm at work. What's the score?

70-61 6:52 in the 3rd..Cavs are dominating the game

185 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:21:29pm

This same guy keeps coming back over and over. It's like Groundhog Day.

186 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:21:36pm

re: #161 lawhawk

Typo alert....

after a fifth member turned in the other four
187 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:22:23pm

re: #42 Cognito

So they're healthy and delicious?

Low fat, rich in iron, too!

188 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:22:33pm

re: #179 jcm

I always count religion and philosophy as close the same thing, one incorporates a diety (ies) the other may not.

That works. Religion is a branch of philosophy so to speak. Of course it's more complicated than that simple statement.

189 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:22:52pm

re: #185 The Sanity Inspector

This same guy keeps coming back over and over. It's like Groundhog Day.

Without Bill Murray to make it funny.

190 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:22:59pm

Argggggggggggg. This is ridiculous. If McLeroy does get approved, I will be poking fun at Texas for years to come. After having been through a similar episode and the butt of many jokes in Kansas it's just natural.

/apologies in advance to any reasonable people who might live in Texas.

191 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:23:14pm

6000 x 365.24 equals only 2,185,500 sunsets so far, if the earth is really that young.

Of course, there has only really been one sunset/sunrise, it just has always been moving.

192 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:23:26pm

re: #188 Gus 802

That works. Religion is a branch of philosophy so to speak. Of course it's more complicated than that simple statement.

Most things are more complicated than a simple statement.

;-)

193 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:24:05pm

re: #143 Jimmah

Dawkins is obviously a vocal atheist, and as an intellectual he of course marshalls the strongest arguments he can to support his position. What's so bad about that?

Because science can't tell us anything about the afterlife.

194 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:24:18pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

They should indeed back off as well. Issues such as this would be well served by everyone lowering the volume. That said, the I do have to say that this issue is a war of attrition. The views of the two sides cannot be reconciled. The issue can best be summed up by the Duke of Wellington: "Hard pounding this, gentlemen. Let's see who can pound the longest."

They can't back off. Never have never will, nor do I think they should be told to shut up any more than Dawkins should.

When people deny their senses in order to maintain a fiction, there is no alternative but to get in their face, so to speak; and we do that here all the time.

195 HelloDare  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:24:19pm

re: #183 Ojoe

Today's San Gabriel Mountains Sunset. Towercam! There's that pesky tree shadow on the telescope dome again. Pacific time zone.

Nature Break.

That clearing just to the left of the dome -- I think a bear is mooning us.

196 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:24:19pm

re: #191 Ojoe

Of course, there has only really been one sunset/sunrise, it just has always been moving.

(voice of Keanu Reeves) 'Whoa.'

197 MJ  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:25:21pm

FBI, NYPD Arrest 4 in Alleged Plot to Bomb NY Synagogues


The suspects also discussed trying to shoot down military planes at Stewart Airport


[Link: www.nbcnewyork.com...]

198 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:25:27pm

re: #192 jcm

Most things are more complicated than a simple statement.

;-)

Sometimes being brief is easier. Helps cut down on the typing.

199 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:25:58pm

re: #195 HelloDare

Don't go out tonight

It's bound to take your life

There's a bear moon on the rise

Apologies to CCR

200 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:26:12pm

re: #164 albusteve

I liked it...we have an open booking Sunday afternoons...can you make it?

:D

201 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:26:58pm

re: #188 Gus 802

That works. Religion is a branch of philosophy so to speak. Of course it's more complicated than that simple statement.

Well, not to sound all Averroistic here, but the two are very different.

Philosophy is nothing but the examination of the world and its beings through unaided human reason; religion, however, holds certain truths that cannot be questioned. (Remember, the charge against old Socrates was that he introduced new and strange gods - the Ideas - and/or that he was an atheist. He said he didn't know about the olympian gods, about which every Athenian "knew" because they had been told about them already.) Philosophy is radical and corrosive of the the social order constituted by the self-evident truths of revelation and tradition.

This is why a philosopher has a duty to protect his city, by carrying on his work, true, but doing so without destroying the social order of which he is a part and to which he owes his life and leisure; this is why Socrates did not flee the death sentence, and why Plato wrote dialogues; re-read Aristotle sometime, and you can see, he's hinting at things just beneath the surface.

202 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:27:16pm

re: #185 The Sanity Inspector

This same guy keeps coming back over and over. It's like Groundhog Day.

Now I have "I Got You, Babe" in my head.

203 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:27:26pm

re: #190 Thanos

Argggggggggggg. This is ridiculous. If McLeroy does get approved, I will be poking fun at Texas for years to come. After having been through a similar episode and the butt of many jokes in Kansas it's just natural.

/apologies in advance to any reasonable people who might live in Texas.

Go ahead, I will be numb by then. My state senator has a radio talk show. He's very technical and process-oriented about what he's up to in Austin. It's very informative, although sometimes obscure (like corn harvest regulations, etc.).

HOWEVER, only a couple of weeks back, he had a caller go to great lengths defending McLeroy, and he didn't really answer one way or another. This made me have serious doubts as to HIS position. His office is responsive, but the silence was disturbing. I have written since, but no response yet.

204 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:27:39pm

re: #197 MJ

The four suspects were identified as James Cromitie, David Williams, Onta Williams and Laguerre Payen.


A bunch of reverts.

205 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:27:56pm

I remember seeing a video of a school board meeting where the evolution vs. creationism issue was being considered.

The speaker in favor of evolution pointed out that he was pro-evolution, and that his opponent was anti-evolution. He stated, "Let's make it clear. He will not be arguing for creationism tonight. He will be arguing against evolution."

He continued, "How do I know this? I've been in many evolution/ID/creationism debates over the years, and never once have I heard an argument in favor of creationism or ID. All they have is attacks on the evolution side of which they disapprove. They've learned well that to provide their arguments for creationism/ID is to undermine their own position."

The debate went on, and happened just as this speaker had said. The other side provided no pro-ID/creationism arguments, only anti-evolution ones. The speaker reiterated what he had said at the beginning, and the creationism/ID proposal went down in flames by a unanimous vote of that school board.

206 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:28:00pm

re: #181 buzzsawmonkey

It depends. Do you want to win the fight, or do you want to whine about what's "fa-a-a-a-a-a-i-i-ir?"

As I suggested I don't think there really is anything to fear from the public getting a representative sample of scientists views, whether atheists or believers. All they will learn from that is that both believers and atheists are among those who accept what science tells us. To promote the idea that scientists should be silent on the topic of atheism is therefore not only an affront, but an unneccessary one.

207 Spare O'Lake  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:28:15pm

re: #193 Cognito

Because science can't tell us anything about the afterlife.

Science can tell you that there is no evidence that there is one.

208 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:28:41pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

A bunch of reverts.

Degenerated reverts, to paraphrase Colonel Bat Guano

209 MJ  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:28:56pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

A bunch of reverts.

That seems to be the case.

210 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:29:07pm

re: #182 OldLineTexan

LOL, why would I care? You're the one jumping up and down.

You're hallucinating. Been eating 'shrooms with space jesus again?

211 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:29:25pm

re: #199 Ojoe

Don't go out tonight

It's bound to take your life

There's a bear moon on the rise

Apologies to CCR

I think they might understand.


212 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:29:26pm

re: #202 Sharmuta

Now I have "I Got You, Babe" in my head.

I miss Sonny Bono, and Cher's fifth nose. :(

213 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:29:56pm
214 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:30:08pm

re: #207 Spare O'Lake

Science can tell you that there is no evidence that there is one.

And no evidence there isn't.

As I said, science has nothing to say about what lies beyond nature. For, against, or otherwise.

215 Last Mohican  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:30:39pm

re: #197 MJ

From the complaint:

...announced the arrests tonight of JAMES CROMITIE, a/k/a "Abdul
Rahman," a/k/a "Abdul Rehman," DAVID WILLIAMS, a/k/a "Daoud,"
a/k/a "DL," ONTA WILLIAMS, a/k/a "Hamza," and LAGUERRE PAYEN,
a/k/a "Amin," a/k/a "Almondo," on charges arising from a plot to
detonate explosives near a synagogue in the Riverdale section of
the Bronx, New York, and to shoot military planes located at the
New York Air National Guard Base at Stewart Airport in Newburgh,
New York, with Stinger surface-to-air guided missiles.
216 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:30:49pm

re: #197 MJ

FBI, NYPD Arrest 4 in Alleged Plot to Bomb NY Synagogues

The suspects also discussed trying to shoot down military planes at Stewart Airport

[Link: www.nbcnewyork.com...]

Amazing! The report actually actually tells us that some of the suspects are Muslims. I thought they were all Militant Lutherans!

/////////

But, seriously, good for NBC 5 for giving us the truth.

217 Ojoe  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:30:55pm

re: #211 MandyManners

World famous, will be in jukeboxes all across America forever.

Thanks.

218 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:31:10pm

re: #193 Cognito

Because science can't tell us anything about the afterlife.

Feel free to provide a detailed hypothesis about the afterlife, including how you believe it corresponds to that which exists, and in exactly what way, and science will be more than glad to get right on it.

219 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:31:26pm

re: #201 Guanxi88

Philosophy is radical and corrosive of the the social order constituted by the self-evident truths of revelation and tradition.

I don't believe that those truths are self-evident.

220 jcm  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:31:31pm

re: #207 Spare O'Lake

Science can tell you that there is no evidence that there is one.

It also provides no evidence there isn't one.

Metaphysics is outside the realm of science.

Either side pushing in the realm of the other is the same mistake.

221 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:31:37pm

re: #212 OldLineTexan

I miss Sonny Bono, and Cher's fifth nose. :(

gawd almighty

222 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:32:06pm

re: #210 Jimmah

You're hallucinating. Been eating 'shrooms with space jesus again?

I see that "A" in debate has really served you well.

And, not that it matters, I would be scared stiff to eat a 'shroom, since a classmate in college did a Levi's jean commercial out of a seventh-floor window.

Especially with teh jeebus ... between you and me, I don't think the boy is all that bright. ;)

223 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:32:18pm

re: #179 jcm

I always count religion and philosophy as close the same thing, one incorporates a diety (ies) the other may not.

Add a deity to philosophy and you have theology. It (the deity) is kind of like Einstein's constant; a fudge number to make all the rest make sense.

*ducks*

224 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:32:55pm

re: #193 Cognito

Because science can't tell us anything about the afterlife.

You mean an afterlife.

225 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:33:39pm

re: #202 Sharmuta

Now I have "I Got You, Babe" in my head.

From not long before Sonny Bono was killed in his skiing accident, here's Sonny & Cher's last appearance together:

226 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:34:26pm

re: #193 Cognito

Because science can't tell us anything about the afterlife.

Science can't tell us about magic. But who says 'life death and what is good' involves any magic? Can't an atheist discuss his non magical world view, for pete's sake?

227 The Shadow Do  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:34:30pm

re: #177 calcajun

I'm at work. What's the score?

75-73 now. Not so close before I had to take my dogs out after last post.

About taking dogs out. Four of them with diarrhea. Nooooooooooooooooooo

228 Spare O'Lake  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:34:38pm

re: #213 buzzsawmonkey

You're saying, "Teach the controversy."

You know that, don't you?

Science teachers should keep their yaps shut in the school about religion.
Scientists outside the classroom can say whatever they damn well please about religion.

229 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:34:39pm

re: #212 OldLineTexan

I miss Sonny Bono, and Cher's fifth nose. :(

I don't miss Cher's 8 consecutive farewell tours.

230 jorline  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:34:46pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

Amazing! The report actually actually tells us that some of the suspects are Muslims. I thought they were all Militant Lutherans!

/////////

But, seriously, good for NBC 5 for giving us the truth.

I said this the other night...someone is spiking the Lutheran Pot-Luck-Dinners.

231 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:34:48pm

re: #218 gmsc

Feel free to provide a detailed hypothesis about the afterlife, including how you believe it corresponds to that which exists, and in exactly what way, and science will be more than glad to get right on it.

No need. I've made no assertions, and neither has science.

You disagree?

232 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:35:31pm

re: #225 gmsc

From not long before Sonny Bono was killed in his skiing accident, here's Sonny & Cher's last appearance together:

[Video]

I had breakfast with Cher in Aspen years ago....I don't really want to discuss it

233 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:35:56pm

re: #226 Jimmah

Science can't tell us about magic. But who says 'life death and what is good' involves any magic? Can't an atheist discuss his non magical world view, for pete's sake?

Certainly he can. But he can't stand on his scientific credentials to do it. Just like religious leaders set themselves up for mockery when they stand on their religion to issue opinions on science.

234 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:36:00pm

re: #231 Cognito

No need. I've made no assertions, and neither has science.

You disagree?

No. I'm just saying science is ready to test any properly-hypothesized assertions when they are made.

235 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:36:18pm

re: #232 albusteve

but I will if you make me

236 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:36:37pm

re: #221 albusteve

gawd almighty

You like the new one (I think she's on number eight)?

/

237 axegrinder  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:36:39pm

re: #188 Gus 802

That works. Religion is a branch of philosophy so to speak. Of course it's more complicated than that simple statement.

Yeah, I remember when some journalists ridiculed Bush for stating Jesus as his favorite philosopher. All they did was bring attention to their own ignorance. You don't have to be a Christian or even a believer in God to understand Jesus as a philosopher. Just a bit of common bible knowledge.

238 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:36:59pm
239 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:37:14pm

re: #234 gmsc

No. I'm just saying science is ready to test any properly-hypothesized assertions when they are made.

Of course.

240 gmsc  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:37:34pm

On open-mindedness:

241 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:37:37pm

re: #230 jorline

I said this the other night...someone is spiking the Lutheran Pot-Luck-Dinners.

It's the effing lutefisk - no good will ever come of that stuff. VIKINGS ate it. Need I say more?!?

242 Spare O'Lake  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:38:11pm

re: #214 Cognito

And no evidence there isn't.

As I said, science has nothing to say about what lies beyond nature. For, against, or otherwise.

That's correct. Science can help religious folks understand that their beliefs about the afterlife are not evidence-based and are thus strictly faith-based.

243 albusteve  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:38:14pm

re: #236 OldLineTexan

You like the new one (I think she's on number eight)?

/

'How It's Made!"

244 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:39:00pm

re: #219 Gus 802

I don't believe that those truths are self-evident.

Ahh, then you don't see them for what they are to those who do see them. I'd point out that our political system, too, is based on self-evident truths.

Think of the story of Pilate interrogating Jesus:

"I am truth," He said.

"What is truth?" asked Pilate.

What does it mean? Jesus spoke of Truth; Pilate dealt with facts. Jesus' kingdom was not of this world, and so was centered in eternal, immutable truths, immediately self-evident to Him and to those touched by His teaching. Pilate? He was definitely of this world, ever-changing, ever in flux; he dealt in facts, not Truth, and for this reason, Jesus' words were incomprehensible to him.

(I'm not a Christian, but the story is instructive, and illustrates the case rather well, i think; it may be that I have misinterpreted it, and for any offense or confusion caused by this, I offer my most sincere apologies in advance.)

245 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:39:23pm

re: #237 axegrinder

Yeah, I remember when some journalists ridiculed Bush for stating Jesus as his favorite philosopher. All they did was bring attention to their own ignorance. You don't have to be a Christian or even a believer in God to understand Jesus as a philosopher. Just a bit of common bible knowledge.

Thanks. That's how I see religion as an "outsider" as a philosophy and not through anything like an organized structure.

246 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:40:03pm

re: #224 Gus 802

You mean an afterlife.

Or as Mark Twain alluded, beforelife.

247 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:41:06pm

re: #213 buzzsawmonkey

You're saying, "Teach the controversy."

You know that, don't you?

And this is a worthwhile or illuminating analogy because....?

'Teach the controversy' is the ID'ers sneaky tactic for getting an uncontroversially idiotic non-theory taught as science in public classrooms.

What does this have to do with my suggestion that evolutionists continue to be free to discuss their faith or lack of it?

248 jorline  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:41:14pm

re: #241 OldLineTexan

It's the effing lutefisk - no good will ever come of that stuff. VIKINGS ate it. Need I say more?!?

lmao...herring...potatoes...herring....potatoes...more frigging herring!

249 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:41:23pm

Limbaugh today:

There's more evidence that we evolved from that lemur monkey, 47 million years old, than there is that Guantanamo Bay created more terrorists.

And to think, we after yesterday we all assumed he was a creationist.

250 lawhawk  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:41:24pm

re: #204 Killgore Trout

Actually, I don't think that is the case. Cromitie's parents are from Afghanistan, and he was angry at US actions in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The complaint has the details.

251 OldLineTexan  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:42:02pm

re: #248 jorline

lmao...herring...potatoes...herring....potatoes... more frigging herring!

You left out the lye and oil ...

/

252 Spare O'Lake  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:43:08pm

re: #238 buzzsawmonkey

Of course they can say whatever they damn well please outside of the classroom. They just have to be aware of the fact that if they do, it may well end up affecting what they are told to say in the classroom.

If they're fine with that, OK. But they will only have themselves to blame.

Fair enough. And if religious science teachers mouth off about religion in the science classroom it may well end up costing them their jobs.
And they will have only themselves to blame.

253 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:44:03pm

re: #244 Guanxi88

Ahh, then you don't see them for what they are to those who do see them. I'd point out that our political system, too, is based on self-evident truths.

Think of the story of Pilate interrogating Jesus:

"I am truth," He said.

"What is truth?" asked Pilate.

What does it mean? Jesus spoke of Truth; Pilate dealt with facts. Jesus' kingdom was not of this world, and so was centered in eternal, immutable truths, immediately self-evident to Him and to those touched by His teaching. Pilate? He was definitely of this world, ever-changing, ever in flux; he dealt in facts, not Truth, and for this reason, Jesus' words were incomprehensible to him.

(I'm not a Christian, but the story is instructive, and illustrates the case rather well, i think; it may be that I have misinterpreted it, and for any offense or confusion caused by this, I offer my most sincere apologies in advance.)

No. I didn't say that. My statement was personal in that I myself do not see those as self-evident truths. I understand completely that many people do see those as as self-evident truths. So when I say "I don't see those as self-evident truths" I do not mean to say that "and they should too."

And it is true that my life is filled with my own self-evident truths through experience, education, reading, etc.

254 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:45:40pm

re: #249 Machalot

Limbaugh today:

And to think, we after yesterday we all assumed he was a creationist.

I still think he's a creationist. He's just acknowledging the ridiculously obvious (though not to liberals): That, agree or disagree with it as truth, evolution has some facts to back it up. The idea that Gitmo creates terrorists has no such evidence to back it up.

BTW: I do believe in evolution. I was just trying to describe what Rush was trying to say.

255 Guanxi88  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:46:43pm

re: #253 Gus 802

No. I didn't say that. My statement was personal in that I myself do not see those as self-evident truths. I understand completely that many people do see those as as self-evident truths. So when I say "I don't see those as self-evident truths" I do not mean to say that "and they should too."

And it is true that my life is filled with my own self-evident truths through experience, education, reading, etc.

I imagine your perspective is dead on correct; wrote without reading closely enough.

We Straussians get into a ton of trouble for suggesting that the ancients taught the noble lie, and meant it, and that perhaps all human societies are constituted around something roughly equivalent, and that the duty of the philosopher is to examine these beliefs and teachings, and, without undermining them, gently encourage the leadership of gentlemen and nobles to look into things a little more closely.

256 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:47:01pm

re: #244 Guanxi88

Also. No "offense or confusion caused by this." I usually avoid these topics but I really should make it a point to type some thoughts out. I tend to keep these sorts of things bottled up inside.

257 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:47:25pm

re: #233 Cognito

Certainly he can. But he can't stand on his scientific credentials to do it. Just like religious leaders set themselves up for mockery when they stand on their religion to issue opinions on science.

So in your mind a scientist promoting a non-theistic, naturalistic world view is just like a religious leader issuing opinions on science? Wow. Some folks need to get their analogy circuits put in for a thorough service.

258 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:49:37pm

re: #257 Jimmah

So in your mind a scientist promoting a non-theistic, naturalistic world view is just like a religious leader issuing opinions on science? Wow. Some folks need to get their analogy circuits put in for a thorough service.

Forget it, Jimmah, It's Cognito. He makes odd analogies at times. It's all part of his charm (and yes, I really do like having him around).

259 Jimmah  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:50:12pm

Well, that's bed time for me. Catch y'all later:)

260 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:50:15pm
261 axegrinder  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:52:10pm

re: #244 Guanxi88

Pilate was a politician. His actions were politically motivated and executed. One wonders what Christianity would be like had he made a different decision. Perhaps conscripted Jesus into the military or some such.

262 shiplord kirel  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:55:38pm

Texas has led the world in the science and technology of petroleum exploration for a hundred years, same with soil and erosion geology. You can kiss those good-bye, along with NASA, the tech sector, and Tier 3 research universities. Thanks, Creation Crazies. Please find some other scam to uphold and justify your mediocrity.

263 Cognito  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:58:25pm

re: #257 Jimmah

So in your mind a scientist promoting a non-theistic, naturalistic world view is just like a religious leader issuing opinions on science? Wow. Some folks need to get their analogy circuits put in for a thorough service.

It's an absolutely appropriate analogy. Science and religion each address something the other cannot. Science addresses what happens on this side of mortality; religion, the other side.

So a religious figure using his religion to expound on science is completely analogous to a scientific figure using his science to expound on religion.

264 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:07:30pm

re: #254 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I was just jokin' =)

265 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:14:11pm

re: #263 Cognito

It's an absolutely appropriate analogy. Science and religion each address something the other cannot. Science addresses what happens on this side of mortality; religion, the other side.

So a religious figure using his religion to expound on science is completely analogous to a scientific figure using his science to expound on religion.

It's like this: What does the United Auto Workers say is the correct way to swim the backstroke?

266 Throbert McGee  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:21:46pm

re: #260 buzzsawmonkey

His stance is basically the same as that of a half-naked drag queen shaking it at a staid burgher at a gay pride parade; "Hey, there! Look-a me! I'm your worst nightmare, an atheist evolutionist, and I'm in your face!"

Chuckling at this phrase because, um, drag queens (at least those who aren't also surgical transsexuals) are in fact rather reliant on clothing to help create the "illusion."

Dawkins has to decide whether he wants to get his short term jollies playing the drag queen, or whether he wants to help ensure that science and religion stay separate.

So Dawkins, as a Brit, should keep quiet about one of his passions (promoting atheism) because his outspokenness is politically inconvenient for us Yanks who are dealing with the issue of Creationism in our public high-school classrooms?

267 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:25:20pm

re: #266 Throbert McGee

So Dawkins, as a Brit, should keep quiet about one of his passions (promoting atheism) because his outspokenness is politically inconvenient for us Yanks who are dealing with the issue of Creationism in our public high-school classrooms?

Dawkins also cares what happens in the United States, so in the interest of his own cause, yes.

268 Altermite  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:39:48pm

I've read most of Dawkins stuff, and seem him on video. He's not bombastic- the only thing you can say is that he is unapologetically atheist, and has no problems putting it out there. And that seems to be what people call 'militant'- not being ashamed of having nonreligious beliefs, and a willingness to put them out there.

As for the comments about sticking to his expertise, and leaving religious people to their own- Take about 5 minutes to think about why that comment would make no sense to an atheist.

269 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:30:32pm
270 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:16:24am

re: #165 Sharmuta

Here's hoping that threshold is out of reach.

As I said last night concerning Rush- we need science to ensure American prosperity. These folks don't care if they're damning our children and grandchildren to a less advanced American society so long as they're being brought to Jesus. It's not the role of the government or public schools to concern themselves with our eternal salvation. These people need Remedial Civics 101.

They harbor the domestic fundamentalist Christian version of Khomeini's sentiment when he stated thaty he cared not if Iran burned, so long as it advanced the cause of Islam.

271 ihateronpaul  Thu, May 21, 2009 5:25:42am

ha. is texas really salvageable at this point?

272 Jimmah  Thu, May 21, 2009 7:20:53am

re: #263 Cognito

It's an absolutely appropriate analogy. Science and religion each address something the other cannot. Science addresses what happens on this side of mortality; religion, the other side.

So a religious figure using his religion to expound on science is completely analogous to a scientific figure using his science to expound on religion.

How is a scientist discussing his non-theistic, naturalistic world view equivalent to "using his science to expound on religion"?

This merely repeats and amplifies the goof-up you've been making all the way through this debate: mistaking the topic of "life, death and what is good" for the topic of "religion". They are not the same.

273 Jimmah  Thu, May 21, 2009 8:51:54am

re: #260 buzzsawmonkey

I used "Teach the controversy" precisely because it is a sneaky ID phrase. In your next sentence, you talk about whether "evolutionists continue to be free to discuss their faith or lack of it." Not "atheists," notice--"evolutionists."

I'm completely aware of that, as it is the very point I am making. Yes, evolutionists should continue to be free to talk about their belief or lack of belief as the case may be. I'm still mystified as to why you would think that saying "teach the controversy" is some kind of 'gotcha'. This controversy, unlike ID, is a genuine one.

Dawkins does not shrink from this--he relishes it. His stance is basically the same as that of a half-naked drag queen shaking it at a staid burgher at a gay pride parade; "Hey, there! Look-a me! I'm your worst nightmare, an atheist evolutionist, and I'm in your face!"

Ahh - so that's what simply being an atheist scientist is about. Who knew they were so 'colourful', and so filled with petty spite?/

If one were a particularly angry sort of atheist one could make a similar case against Kenneth Miller. "Look at me - I'm a scientist and I believe in God. And I write books about that too - rah rah in your face!"

Dawkins intent with books like "The God Delusion", however, is to promote his non-theistic, naturalist worldview, not to rile up a bunch of saddoes, just as Ken Millers is not to rile up atheists, but to promote the worldview of one who both believes in God and accepts the naturalistic world view.

With so many people like Ken Miller around, there's little danger of Dawkins viewpoint being taken by the public as the only possible one for someone who takes science seriously. Creationists will of course try to spin it to their advantage - what can you do? Refute them as we do on all their invalid talking points of course! Tell them, for starters, that even Dawkins acknowledges the possibility of the existence of a God.

As for the suggestion that atheist scientists should be anything less than completely honest about their worldview, or should remain silent so as to avoid giving creationists 'ammunition' - no sale here.

274 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 21, 2009 3:33:26pm

re: #82 Charles

Good grief.

Pat Boone just pulled out a sewing machine belt that his parents used to beat him with, to excuse the police who savagely beat an unconscious car chase suspect.

"Look at this! My momma beat me and my brother with this belt, and I turned out jes' fine!"

No, Pat. You didn't.

Vay's mir.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
3 days ago
Views: 121 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 283 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1