More Details on New York Jihad Plot

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
US News • Thu May 21, 2009 at 10:09 am PDT • Views: 324

The Associated Press has more details (including the militant Islam angle they were shying away from yesterday) on the suspects arrested in New York for plotting to bomb a synagogue and shoot Stinger missiles at military aircraft: NYC police: Terror suspects wanted to commit jihad.

NEW YORK — Four men arrested after planting what they thought were explosives near two synagogues and plotting to shoot down a military plane were bent on carrying out a holy war against America, authorities said Thursday.

The suspects were arrested Wednesday night, shortly after planting a 37-pound mock explosive device in the trunk of a car outside the Riverdale Temple and two mock bombs in the backseat of a car outside the Riverdale Jewish Center, another synagogue a few blocks away, authorities said.

Police blocked their escape with an 18-wheel truck, smashing their tinted SUV windows and apprehending the unarmed suspects.

At a news conference outside the Riverdale Jewish Center in the Bronx, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly quoted one of the men as saying, “If Jews were killed in this attack … that would be all right.”

James Cromitie, David Williams, Onta Williams and Laguerre Payen, all of Newburgh, were charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction within the United States and conspiracy to acquire and use anti-aircraft missiles, the U.S. attorney’s office said.

“They stated that they wanted to commit jihad,” Kelly said. “They were disturbed about what happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan, that Muslims were being killed.”

Kelly said he believed the men knew each other through prison. They had long rap sheets for charges including drug possession and assault.

An official told The Associated Press that three of the men are converts to Islam. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to discuss details of the investigation. Three of the defendants are U.S. citizens and one is of Haitian descent, officials said.

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1 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:11:13am
“They stated that they wanted to commit jihad,” Kelly said. “They were disturbed about what happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan, that Muslims were being killed.”

When did Methodists start waging Jihad?

/

2 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:11:42am

I'm curious as to the "techniques" used to identify and infiltrate this group and to use them so thoroughly to get this arrest. I'm curious if it's anything Obama has or is planning to discontinue.

3 JohnnyReb  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:12:16am

I guarantee you that the ACLU will be all over this case. And Bush will be blamed somehow for these guys going "bad".

4 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:12:33am

The FBI had an informant in a mosque that stopped an terror attack on synagogues?

Informant in a mosque?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

OPPRESSION!

Where is CAIR?

It is against their human rights!

Gotta go get the papers, get the papers.

5 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:12:37am

re: #2 Russkilitlover

I'm curious as to the "techniques" used to identify and infiltrate this group and to use them so thoroughly to get this arrest. I'm curious if it's anything Obama has or is planning to discontinue.

He'll look into it now. Can't have the FBI trying to protect the US.

6 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:02am

But... Islam is a peaceful religion... This must be someone who read the wrong version of the koran. It would never tell people to hate infidels and kill jews...

oh wait... all versions of the koran and hadith say that..

never mind...

7 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:04am

When will that shit-slinging ape Hoopie pop up and give the "No True Scotsman" defense?

8 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:13am

re: #2 Russkilitlover

I'm curious as to the "techniques" used to identify and infiltrate this group and to use them so thoroughly to get this arrest. I'm curious if it's anything Obama has or is planning to discontinue.

Darwyn was the UC.
/

9 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:17am

oy...

Look...they are Jihadi muslims if they want to commit Jihad. Any questions?

10 notutopia  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:21am

Mock explosives?! What dunces! Thank good ness for the FBI and the informants on this investigation. This could have turned out just awful had it not been for them! Thank you FBI!

11 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:27am

re: #2 Russkilitlover

I'm curious as to the "techniques" used to identify and infiltrate this group and to use them so thoroughly to get this arrest. I'm curious if it's anything Obama has or is planning to discontinue.

Don't you remember CAIR and other groups flipping out about FBI informants in mosques, not too long ago?

12 Lincolntf  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:28am

Good God, this is one case where can there be no doubt that some Islamic terrorists are indeed homegrown. If they had gotten their hands on real explosives, today would have been a dark day in our history indeed.

13 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:47am

Obviously these gentlemen were the victims of illegal police profiling.

/

14 tfc3rid  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:13:47am

The NYPD is an excellent anti-terror force... Ray Kelly is a terrific Commish.

15 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:14:20am

and these guys converted in prison.. Sounds like we need an investigation into who they have in prison as imams...

16 Fenway_Nation  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:14:29am

Everything's fine! I'm sure they meant a peaceful inner struggle...you know...bomb the synogogue within. Shoot down the National Guard aircraft within...

17 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:14:47am

More details...

... The suspects intended to use devices containing C-4 plastic explosives to attack the synagogue and community center, they said.

From there, the defendants allegedly planned to head north to the New York Air National Guard Base at Stewart Airport in Newburgh with what they thought was an activated Stinger surface-to-air missile to shoot down military aircraft, officials said.

The defendants believed the weapons had been provided through Jaysh-e-Mohammed, a terrorist group based in Pakistan, officials said. However, their supplier actually was an undercover FBI informant who provided them inert C-4 plastic explosives and a deactivated Stinger, they said.

18 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:14:55am

Anyone else wonder if they used neosporin for the bombs?

/Zohan

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:15:08am

Kudos to all the law inforcement agencies involved!

20 Truck Monkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:15:14am

Here, in microcosm, is what happens with our prison population. They are converted to Islam and schooled in the ways of jihad. When released they are and will be like a virus on the general population. Hey, I got a great idea! Let's mix the G-Bay terrorists into the general prison population! What could go wrong?

21 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:15:19am

re: #6 MikeAlv77

But... Islam is a peaceful religion... This must be someone who read the wrong version of the koran. It would never tell people to hate infidels and kill jews...

oh wait... all versions of the koran and hadith say that..

never mind...

You must have missed the part where there was an informant inside the mosque who tipped off the FBI.

22 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:15:29am

Because stingers are user friendly?

23 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:16:12am
24 joncelli  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:17:12am

Obama says the US went "off course" in the war on terror: [Link: www.politico.com...]

25 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:17:25am

re: #21 Charles

Clicked on your avatar. You've changed. Less makeup?

26 _RememberTonyC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:17:36am

It is absolutely astonishing to me that so many Jews, who are always in the jihadis' crosshairs refuse to support those people who are supporting them. Why Jews continue to vote robotically Democratic is one of the great mysteries of our society.

27 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:17:48am

re: #23 buzzsawmonkey

"My mosque shall be called a house of conspiracy against all peoples."

I have to quote Charles here...

"You must have missed the part where there was an informant inside the mosque who tipped off the FBI."

Not all mosques are full of terrorist, or hot beds of insurrection.

28 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:17:49am

re: #21 Charles

You must have missed the part where there was an informant inside the mosque who tipped off the FBI.

Wait for their lawyer to shout "entrapment!"

29 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:18:21am

re: #20 Truck Monkey

Here, in microcosm, is what happens with our prison population. They are converted to Islam and schooled in the ways of jihad. When released they are and will be like a virus on the general population. Hey, I got a great idea! Let's mix the G-Bay terrorists into the general prison population! What could go wrong?

I doubt there's very much "schooling in jihad" going on in prison. What's much more likely is that these guys were violent criminals to start with, went to prison, and learned to put an Islamic gloss on their already violent natures.

30 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:18:50am

re: #10 notutopia

Mock explosives?! What dunces! Thank good ness for the FBI and the informants on this investigation. This could have turned out just awful had it not been for them! Thank you FBI!

Any relation to Elliot?

31 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:18:55am

I'll wager that the US has informants burrowed into just about all of the radical US mosques. I also bet that we won't hear about that - nor should we. For their presence to become known would kinda defeat the purpose; then these jihadist assholes would just organize OUTSIDE mosques, and we'd have no chance at all to glom onto them and insert operatives.

32 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:19:00am

re: #24 joncelli

Obama says the US went "off course" in the war on terror: [Link: www.politico.com...]

Yeah, we elected him.

33 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:19:03am

re: #28 Alouette

Wait for their lawyer to shout "entrapment!"


34 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:19:26am

re: #29 Charles

I doubt there's very much "schooling in jihad" going on in prison. What's much more likely is that these guys were violent criminals to start with, went to prison, and learned to put an Islamic gloss on their already violent natures.

Islam can be readily used to commit crimes since it allows one to hate various groups. Much more difficult or immposible to do so with other religions.

35 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:19:57am
36 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:20:07am

re: #25 unrealizedviewpoint

Clicked on your avatar. You've changed. Less makeup?

(SO many puns, so FAR below the 100th comment)

37 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:20:13am

re: #25 unrealizedviewpoint

Clicked on your avatar. You've changed. Less makeup?

Happens on the full moon.

38 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:20:49am

re: #34 MikeAlv77

Islam can be readily used to commit crimes since it allows one to hate various groups. Much more difficult or immposible to do so with other religions.

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. After some of the vicious hate mail I've gotten from people who call themselves "Christians," it's pretty obvious that Islam has no monopoly on hatred.

39 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:21:14am

re: #25 unrealizedviewpoint

Clicked on your avatar. You've changed. Less makeup?

No, more. The old avatar was Charles' true form.

40 joncelli  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:21:16am

re: #25 unrealizedviewpoint

Moisturizer.

41 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:21:27am

re: #37 CyanSnowHawk

Happens on the full moon.

The comments here are going off the scale.

42 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:21:29am

re: #29 Charles

I doubt there's very much "schooling in jihad" going on in prison. What's much more likely is that these guys were violent criminals to start with, went to prison, and learned to put an Islamic gloss on their already violent natures.

Your probably correct, but that doesn't make it any better. As a matter of fact if they actually develop a "enthusiasm" for Islam and Jihad, then it only makes their violent tendencies worse and more dangerous. All the more reason to prevent "proselytizing" in Prisons. And bringing ANY of the Gitmo scum here would be a mistake of gargantuan proportions!

43 jcm  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:21:52am

re: #24 joncelli

Obama says the US went "off course" in the war on terror: [Link: www.politico.com...]

Obama will be so popular the Jihadists will just swoon.

44 rumcrook  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:21:57am
“They stated that they wanted to commit jihad,” Kelly said. “They were disturbed about what happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan, that Muslims were being killed.”

yes disturbed... fine writting that. definitely captures the mood and tenor of a group of newly minted religious psychopaths plotting to MURDER INNOCENT JEWISH WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO ARE COMPLETELY OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF THE CONFLICT IN AFGHANISTAN...

45 zombie  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:22:05am
James Cromitie, David Williams, Onta Williams and Laguerre Payen, all of Newburgh, were charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction within the United States and conspiracy to acquire and use anti-aircraft missiles, the U.S. attorney’s office said.

Any American who vows to commit "jihad" against the United States should be charged with treason, as far as I'm concerned. If violent jihad doesn't qualify as treason, then what does? They are trying to overthrow and/or undermine the country. What does using a bunch of phony religious verbiage give them a free pass? Disgusting.

But I like the way law enforcement uses their real names, not their phony self-assigned Muslim names. The charges against Al Capone were filed against "Alphonse Gabriel Capone", not "Scarface."

46 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:22:06am

It was an FBI setup and they would have never planted those bombs unless they knew they were fake.
/
I know huffpo covered this, I'll have to hold my breath and go check out kos.

47 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:22:17am

re: #36 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(SO many puns, so FAR below the 100th comment)

48 That's Mr. President to you  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:22:26am

I read this report on my BlackBerry this morning and found it very distressing.

I have called an emergency meeting of the National Security Council and have asked them a simple, tough question:

"Why are we arresting people for wanting to commit an internal peaceful struggle?"

49 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:22:36am

re: #34 MikeAlv77

Islam can be readily used to commit crimes since it allows one to hate various groups. Much more difficult or immposible to do so with other religions.

I sense a notruescotsman looming.

50 Beholden  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:22:53am

Human scum, piggy-backing onto the already retarded jihad. Trying to kill for the sake of killing. Attacking a group of people that have done nothing to them personally.

Let them rot in prison with their paranoid fantasies of martyrdom.

51 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:22:57am

re: #42 Nevergiveup

Your probably correct, but that doesn't make it any better. As a matter of fact if they actually develop a "enthusiasm" for Islam and Jihad, then it only makes their violent tendencies worse and more dangerous. All the more reason to prevent "proselytizing" in Prisons. And bringing ANY of the Gitmo scum here would be a mistake of gargantuan proportions!

In Gitmo they can only preach jihad to the choir; bring them here and we give them congregations.

52 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:23:07am

re: #38 Charles

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. After some of the vicious hate mail I've gotten from people who call themselves "Christians," it's pretty obvious that Islam has no monopoly on hatred.

I am sure that is true. The point I am making is that the words in Islam are much more open ended in violence than Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, Hindu, etc... having read the koran and a lot of the hadith online, it has lots of parts allowing a violent person to use it for justification. With the other religions I mentioned, it is much more difficult or impossible.

53 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:23:09am

re: #36 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(SO many puns, so FAR below the 100th comment)

54 notutopia  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #38 Charles

You're right on about this one! Hatred knows no bounds on religion. That horror piece about the Irish Catholic abuses is still sitting in my craw.

55 Lincolntf  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:23:27am

re: #48 That's Mr. President to you

A domestic contingency operation?

56 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:23:48am

re: #45 zombie

Any American who vows to commit "jihad" against the United States should be charged with treason, as far as I'm concerned. If violent jihad doesn't qualify as treason, then what does? They are trying to overthrow and/or undermine the country. What does using a bunch of phony religious verbiage give them a free pass? Disgusting.

But I like the way law enforcement uses their real names, not their phony self-assigned Muslim names. The charges against Al Capone were filed against "Alphonse Gabriel Capone", not "Scarface."

One of them is named "Laguerre" (French for "The War")

57 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:23:54am

re: #48 That's Mr. President to you

I read this report on my BlackBerry this morning and found it very distressing.

I have called an emergency meeting of the National Security Council and have asked them a simple, tough question:

"Why are we arresting people for wanting to commit an internal peaceful struggle?"

Because these nice gentlemen almost instigated a man caused disaster.

58 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:24:01am

this is what I've been trying to say:

More an observation of Charles' decision to replace the lizard image with his own.

59 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:24:12am

re: #53 unrealizedviewpoint

The third time will be a charm.

60 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:24:12am
“They stated that they wanted to commit jihad,” Kelly said. “They were disturbed about what happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan, that Muslims were being killed."

Not Iraq, not Gitmo. Afghanistan, the "good war," is what motivated them to commit jihad. Did you catch that, Obama?

61 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:24:42am

re: #14 tfc3rid

re: #44 rumcrook

Never mind that the majority of those killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan (and Iraq) are Muslims murdering fellow Muslims.

The Taliban are a bunch of Islamists, and they haven't had a problem slaughtering women and children - particularly women who don't follow their misogynistic views. There are literally bombings every day in Pakistan or Afghanistan that kill Muslims. Muslims murdering Muslims, and yet this cell is angry because the US wants to kill the Islamists who are busy slaughtering everyone who doesn't think just like them.

62 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:25:06am

re: #60 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Not Iraq, not Gitmo. Afghanistan, the "good war," is what motivated them to commit jihad. Did you catch that, Obama?

Good Catch!

63 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:25:32am

re: #42 Nevergiveup

Your probably correct, but that doesn't make it any better. As a matter of fact if they actually develop a "enthusiasm" for Islam and Jihad, then it only makes their violent tendencies worse and more dangerous. All the more reason to prevent "proselytizing" in Prisons. And bringing ANY of the Gitmo scum here would be a mistake of gargantuan proportions!

And you thought those guys were hairy before!

64 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:25:50am

re: #56 Alouette

One of them is named "Laguerre" (French for "The War")

I had no idea such a word existed in French!

65 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:26:03am

re: #56 Alouette

They also went by their Islamic names... Cromitie went by Abdul Rehman, David Williams, a/k/a "Daoud," a/k/a "DL," Onta Williams, a/k/a "Hamza," and Laguerre Payen, a/k/a "Amin," a/k/a "Almondo,"

66 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:26:23am

re: #64 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I had no idea such a word existed in French!

Well, you can't surrender unless you have a war first...

67 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:26:35am

re: #48 That's Mr. President to you

Go stuff a waffle in your mouth.

68 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:26:41am

re: #58 unrealizedviewpoint

this is what I've been trying to say:

More an observation of Charles' decision to replace the lizard image with his own.

Got it.

I've wondered if it's (a very admirable) "up-fronting" of who he is, in the face of criticism.

69 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:26:43am

re: #65 lawhawk

They also went by their Islamic names... Cromitie went by Abdul Rehman, David Williams, a/k/a "Daoud," a/k/a "DL," Onta Williams, a/k/a "Hamza," and Laguerre Payen, a/k/a "Amin," a/k/a "Almondo,"

What, no Mohammed?

70 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:26:52am

re: #60 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Not Iraq, not Gitmo. Afghanistan, the "good war," is what motivated them to commit jihad. Did you catch that, Obama?

In his speech today Obama said:
"For the first time since 2002, we are providing the necessary resources and strategic direction to take the fight to the extremists who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan and Pakistan."

71 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:27:02am

re: #66 Leonidas Hoplite

Well, you can't surrender unless you have a war first...

I don't know about that. Ever hear of Neville Chamberlain?

72 JohnnyReb  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:27:16am

re: #69 NJDhockeyfan

What, no Mohammed?

Sorry that name is already taken, about 1,230,032,004 times.

73 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:27:31am

re: #65 lawhawk

They also went by their Islamic names... Cromitie went by Abdul Rehman, David Williams, a/k/a "Daoud," a/k/a "DL," Onta Williams, a/k/a "Hamza," and Laguerre Payen, a/k/a "Amin," a/k/a "Almondo,"

Why is it that when people convert to islam they change their name to some arabic thing? Whats up with that? If someone converts to Christianity, they don't change their name to Paul or Daniel.

74 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:28:24am
75 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:28:42am

20:14 Feds: New York terror suspects `eager to bring death to Jews` (AP)

And like that is something new to us Jews?

76 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:28:43am

re: #71 Nevergiveup

I don't know about that. Ever hear of Neville Chamberlain?

Yeah, I've heard of him. Isn't he Obama's great-great-uncle or something?

77 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:28:53am

re: #73 MikeAlv77

Why is it that when people convert to islam they change their name to some arabic thing? Whats up with that? If someone converts to Christianity, they don't change their name to Paul.

Unless of course you were Saul.

78 joncelli  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:29:09am

re: #70 jaunte

"For the first time since 2002, we are providing the necessary resources and strategic direction to take the fight to the extremists who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan and Pakistan."

This guy just can't resist taking a shot at the previous administration. Not a classy bone in his body. Hey Mr. President, campaign's over, time to lead.

79 MJ  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:29:13am

Plots against Jewish targets in U.S.
May 21, 2009

Lone attackers or small, independent groups with no formal ties to wider terrorist networks have planned several plots against Jewish targets.

March 20, 1994 – Members of the neo-Nazi Volksfront group fired 10 shots into Eugene, Ore.’s Temple Beth Israel, damaging the synagogue’s interior. Police said the attacks were motivated by a newspaper article about several prominent members.

June 18, 1999 – White supremacists Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams – who later went on to kill a Redding, Calif. gay couple – set fire to three synagogues in the Sacramento area. The arson attacks caused more than $1 million in damage.

July 4th weekend, 1999 – White supremacist Benjamin Nathaniel Smith carried out a three-day, two-state shooting spree in the Chicago area that wounds six Orthodox Jews and several blacks and Asians. One black man and one Korean man were killed. Smith later committed suicide. Smith belonged to a white supremacist group, the World Church of the Creator, which espouses hatred against non-whites.

August 10, 1999 – White supremacist Buford O. Furrow, Jr. walked into the lobby of the North Valley Jewish Community Center in Granada Hills, Calif., fired 70 shots into the building and then hurries away. Five people were wounded, and a mail carrier was later killed as Furrow fled. Furrow, a native of Washington state, considered targeting three Jewish institutions: the Skirball Cultural Center, the American Jewish University and the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Museum of Tolerance. When security measures proved prohibitive, he drove to the San Fernando Valley with the stated purpose of “killing Jews,” police said.

July 4, 2002 – Egyptian immigrant Hesham Mohamed Hadeyet walked into Los Angeles International Airport and shot two people at the El Al airline counter, killing both. Police said the shooting was motivated by a mixture of the personal and the political; Hadeyet was suffering financial problems related to a struggling limousine business and worried about his aging parents, but he also opposed Israel’s occupation of West Bank territory.

October 25, 2002 – Five men, all Volksfront members, drive to the Eugene, Ore. synagogue with the intention of intimidating congregants. During a service where 80 people were in attendance, the men threw rocks etched with swastikas through the building’s stained-glass windows. They were later caught.

2005-2007 – Temple Beth Israel in Niagara Falls, N.Y. was consistently targeted by vandals who painted swastikas and urinated on the building. On January 12, 2007, “Kill the Jews” was duct-taped to the building’s door. In August 2007, perpetrator Shawn Blount is sentenced to one to three years in prison; his co-conspirator, a juvenile, is sentenced as a youthful offender to one year in Niagara County Jail.

July 28, 2006 – Naveed Afzal Haq walked into the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building and shot six women, one fatally. Based on Haq’s testimony from a 911 call, the incident was classified as a hate crime by police.

May 20, 2009 - Authorities arrest four men in connection with a plot to bomb two Riverdale synagogues and shoot down military planes at an Air National Guard base in Newburgh, N.Y. The group planned to use missiles to attack the planes and planted what they believed were car bombs outside the Bronx synagogues. During the course of the elaborate FBI sting operation, faulty explosives had been provided to the would-be terrorists. The four, all of whom had a history of petty crime and are not believed to be tied to any major terrorist networks, frequently talked about their anti-Semitic leanings, police said.
[Link: jta.org...]

80 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:29:21am

re: #73 MikeAlv77

Why is it that when people convert to islam they change their name to some arabic thing? Whats up with that? If someone converts to Christianity, they don't change their name to Paul or Daniel.

People who convert to Judaism are required to take a new name, it can be any Hebrew, Aramaic, or even Yiddish name they choose.

81 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:29:22am
82 Lincolntf  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:29:29am

re: #65 lawhawk

I wonder if before their conversion they also had "gang names"?
I'm thinking something like:
David Williams, a/k/a "Daoud," a/k/a "D-Bone ". That would make for a colorful entry in the Court papers.

83 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:29:34am

re: #74 Iron Fist

That seems to be a stretch unless there is something they aren't telling us. X pounds of C-4 does not make a WMD. Charge them with attempted mass murder or, well, any number of other crimes that they appear to have committed. Prosecutorial overreach (as this appears to be) doesn't help. It just gives a sympathetic jury a reason not to convict.

I wonder if there are a ton of charges against these guys and this is the "largest and most printable" that they deceided to print.

84 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:29:47am

re: #78 joncelli

I'm not sure what his "strategic direction" is.

85 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:30:04am

19:59 Palestinians: Netanyahu`s Jerusalem comments invite `eternal` conflict (Reuters

Well eternal conflict is preferable to death if I had my choice?

86 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:30:19am

re: #76 Leonidas Hoplite

Yeah, I've heard of him. Isn't he Obama's great-great-uncle or something?

That's the guy!

87 Fenway_Nation  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:30:43am

re: #76 Leonidas Hoplite

Might explain why 0bama was so eager to get rid of that Churchill bust.

88 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:30:54am
89 NY Nana  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:30:55am

re: #65 lawhawk

"Hamza" ?!?!?!?

/They will keel him for that!

90 joncelli  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:31:10am

re: #84 jaunte

Away from the enemy, probably.

91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:31:12am

re: #80 Alouette

People who convert to Judaism are required to take a new name, it can be any Hebrew, Aramaic, or even Yiddish name they choose.

First & last name?

92 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:31:14am

re: #85 Nevergiveup

19:59 Palestinians: Netanyahu`s Jerusalem comments invite `eternal` conflict (Reuters

Well eternal conflict is preferable to death if I had my choice?

How typically Palestinian. Using Israeli rhetoric against them.

Jerusalem is always referred to as Israel's "eternal capital."

93 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:31:27am
James Cromitie, David Williams, Onta Williams and Laguerre Payen, all of Newburgh, were charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction within the United States and conspiracy to acquire and use anti-aircraft missiles, the U.S. attorney’s office said.

Um, when did WMD get downgraded to a freakin' carbomb?

94 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:31:50am

re: #88 buzzsawmonkey

Pogrom Delivery! We bring death to Jews! If we're not there in 30 minutes, the first death is free!

Mel Brooks?

95 SteveC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:32:05am

re: #58 unrealizedviewpoint

this is what I've been trying to say:

More an observation of Charles' decision to replace the lizard image with his own.

He's renting the Lizard out to promote the new Land of the Lost movie. Times are tough, man, the economy is a mess and Stinky breaks at least one broom handle a week over a moonbat head. LGF had a chance to open a new revenue stream and Charles jumped on it.

96 american sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:32:06am

re: #48 That's Mr. President to you

I read this report on my BlackBerry this morning and found it very distressing.

I have called an emergency meeting of the National Security Council and have asked them a simple, tough question:

"Why are we arresting people for wanting to commit an internal peaceful struggle?"

Ha Ha. You're so damned funny. This investigation started last year on Bush's watch. Why didn't Obama stop it then? He certainly could have since that's what you're implying.

97 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:32:11am
98 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:32:16am

re: #88 buzzsawmonkey

Pogrom Delivery! We bring death to Jews! If we're not there in 30 minutes, the first death is free!

They should be de-pogromed & quick.

99 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:32:31am

re: #74 Iron Fist
re: #93 CyanSnowHawk


GMTA.

100 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:32:40am

re: #93 CyanSnowHawk

Um, when did WMD get downgraded to a freakin' carbomb?

Maybe around the same time that the carnival dunk tank became torture.

101 SteveC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:32:52am

re: #75 Nevergiveup

20:14 Feds: New York terror suspects `eager to bring death to Jews` (AP)

And like that is something new to us Jews?

Yeah, did that just start last week? Because I'm been busy, I may have missed the memo.

102 _RememberTonyC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:33:00am

Any New Yorkers out there having second thoughts on the benefits of waterboarding?

103 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:33:18am

re: #97 buzzsawmonkey

I just made it up.

I meant are you Mel Brooks? It was a compliment.

104 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:33:21am

re: #73 MikeAlv77

Why is it that when people convert to islam they change their name to some arabic thing? Whats up with that? If someone converts to Christianity, they don't change their name to Paul or Daniel.

Some people have baptismal names. One man in our dojang, a former Korean paratrooper, uses his baptismal name of Anthony, rather than trying to get Americans not to mangle his Korean name.

105 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:33:22am

re: #90 joncelli

Away from the enemy, probably.

Ha. I'm sure he considers national defense a pesky distraction.

106 Truck Monkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:33:26am

re: #14 tfc3rid

The NYPD is an excellent anti-terror force... Ray Kelly is a terrific Commish.


He is a HELL of a lot better than Commisioner Gordon. He needed Batmans help with almost all of the high profile criminals.

107 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:33:35am

re: #102 _RememberTonyC

Any New Yorkers out there having second thoughts on the benefits of waterboarding?

Mudboard them.

108 Beholden  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:33:49am

re: #74 Iron Fist

That seems to be a stretch unless there is something they aren't telling us. X pounds of C-4 does not make a WMD. Charge them with attempted mass murder or, well, any number of other crimes that they appear to have committed. Prosecutorial overreach (as this appears to be) doesn't help. It just gives a sympathetic jury a reason not to convict.

Are bombs generally considered minimalist weapons?

109 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:34:08am

re: #106 Truck Monkey

He is a HELL of a lot better than Commisioner Gordon. He needed Batmans help with almost all of the high profile criminals.


[Link: www.eatliver.com...]

110 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:34:15am
111 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:34:30am

re: #14 tfc3rid

The NYPD is an excellent anti-terror force... Ray Kelly is a terrific Commish.

He is, but can he play shortstop. Seems you need one?

112 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:34:31am

re: #104 Dianna

Some people have baptismal names. One man in our dojang, a former Korean paratrooper, uses his baptismal name of Anthony, rather than trying to get Americans not to mangle his Korean name.

I have seen that but why is it in islam they change both first and last name. Mohamad Ali, Karrem Abdul Jabar, all these converts who become terrorists... just weird...

113 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:34:52am

re: #100 Leonidas Hoplite

Maybe around the same time that the carnival dunk tank became torture.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that few people have a sense of proportion any more.

114 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:34:59am
115 Baier  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:35:30am

All we have to do is give the Palestinians a state and this will stop.///

116 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:35:32am

re: #104 Dianna

Some people have baptismal names. One man in our dojang, a former Korean paratrooper, uses his baptismal name of Anthony, rather than trying to get Americans not to mangle his Korean name.

And Catholics do take a Confirmation name. Of all the thousands of Saints I could have picked, like St. Mark the Wrestler or St. Abban of Killabban, I chose St. Patrick - the same as my middle name!

117 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:35:54am

The legal definition of "weapons of mass destruction"...

In 1994, Congress established the legal definition of a weapon of mass destruction (WMD) in 18 U.S.C. 2332a. Basically, they are large destructive devices such as vehicle bombs (conventional weapons of mass destruction - CWMD) and chemical, biological or radiological weapons usually triggered by or incorporating a destructive device (special weapons of mass destruction - SWMD).

118 Lincolntf  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:36:04am

re: #115 Baier

They can have Massachusetts.

119 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:36:21am

re: #108 Beholden

Are bombs generally considered minimalist weapons?

Yes, they're the Rothko of weapons

120 dhg4  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:36:32am

re: #79 MJ

Plots against Jewish targets in U.S.

Ari Halberstam

121 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:36:34am

Has anybody figured out which flavor of Islam these guys were following? At first I thought they might be Nation of Islam types but now it looks like they were attending Sunni/Shia type regular mosques that narced them out.

122 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:36:41am
123 Steve  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:36:51am

re: #38 Charles

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. After some of the vicious hate mail I've gotten from people who call themselves "Christians," it's pretty obvious that Islam has no monopoly on hatred.

Charles you are right is stating that 'Islam has no monopoly on hatred' but these "Christians' that send you the hate mail have no real understanding of what it means to be Christian. I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of them are probably not Christian. Anybody can call themselves anything they want. How they live their lives is what determines who or what they are be it christian, islam, scientist, blogger or whatever.

Even if they are Christian, sending out hate mail puts them at odds with God and they are in sin and out of fellowship with God. They need to get their act together.
My apologies for their hate mail.

Steve

124 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:01am

re: #81 buzzsawmonkey

Since jihad is supposedly a "peaceful inner struggle," I wonder if David Williams was wracked by self-Daoud.

He was just angry that the name "Mumia" was already taken.

125 _RememberTonyC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:15am

re: #107 Ben Hur

Mudboard them.


Too bad there is no such thing as "Bacon.grease.boarding."

126 tfc3rid  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:31am

re: #111 Nevergiveup

He is, but can he play shortstop. Seems you need one?

Doomed,.

127 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:46am
128 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:49am

re: #29 Charles

I doubt there's very much "schooling in jihad" going on in prison. What's much more likely is that these guys were violent criminals to start with, went to prison, and learned to put an Islamic gloss on their already violent natures.

And Islam gives them "legitimate" targets. Instead of going after rival gangs, they go after Jews.

129 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:56am

re: #79 MJ

Omitted from that list is Naveed Haq's murderous rampage at a Seattle Jewish Center.

130 tfc3rid  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:57am

re: #117 Charles

The legal definition of "weapons of mass destruction"...

Wow... So then we DID find WMD in Iraq...

131 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:37:58am

re: #125 _RememberTonyC

Too bad there is no such thing as "Bacon.grease.boarding."

Not yet.

132 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:06am

re: #120 dhg4

Ari Halberstam

I remember that but had forgot his name. People should be reminded periodically about the true cost of terrorism and not being vigilant. Thank you.

133 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:10am

re: #123 Steve

Charles you are right is stating that 'Islam has no monopoly on hatred' but these "Christians' that send you the hate mail have no real understanding of what it means to be Christian. I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of them are probably not Christian.


No true Scotsman.

134 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:17am

re: #117 Charles

The legal definition of "weapons of mass destruction"...

So how is it again the Left can argue no WMD were found in Iraq?

135 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:19am

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Has anybody figured out which flavor of Islam these guys were following? At first I thought they might be Nation of Islam types but now it looks like they were attending Sunni/Shia type regular mosques that narced them out.

None of the news reports have that detail, but I agree -- it doesn't look like they were Nation of Islam.

136 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:21am

re: #125 _RememberTonyC

Too bad there is no such thing as "Bacon.grease.boarding."

That would give them a porkgasm.

137 Fenway_Nation  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:31am

re: #107 Ben Hur

I think in the interest of investigative journalism, I'll have to experience the new, controversial expermental technique known as Bacardiboarding.

138 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:37am

re: #123 Steve

No true Scotsman!

139 jcm  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:38:49am

re: #117 Charles

The legal definition of "weapons of mass destruction"...

I guess by the legal definition we found lots of WMD in Iraq.

140 dhg4  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:39:04am

re: #28 Alouette

Wait for their lawyer to shout "entrapment!"

According to Jules Crittenden, Josh Marshall has already done that.

141 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:39:10am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

Not all mosques are full of terrorist, or hot beds of insurrection.

It's also true that very few jihadists come out of Presbetyrian churches.

142 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:39:11am

re: #123 Steve

My point exactly. Thanks for making it in a much better way than I could. I was referring to the writings of the religion, not people who call themselves one.

As it has been said:

"If a call a dogs tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have...

4.. Calling a tail a leg does not make it so..."

143 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:39:14am

re: #133 Killgore Trout

It's getting to where you can see them coming from pretty far off.

144 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:39:36am

re: #117 Charles

The legal definition of "weapons of mass destruction"...

So basically, one could say that we found a shitload of WMDs over in Iraq. Congress said so.

145 Jim D  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:39:42am

re: #52 MikeAlv77
Utter bullcrap. There are plenty of Christians that have no problem using their religion to justify criminal behavior. Or are abortion clinic bombers not 'true Christians'?

146 Right mind left  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:40:16am

re: #51 Salamantis

In Gitmo they can only preach jihad to the choir; bring them here and we give them congregations.

And tax exempt status and community organizing support from Acorn?

/

147 SteveC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:40:36am

re: #106 Truck Monkey

He is a HELL of a lot better than Commisioner Gordon. He needed Batmans help with almost all of the high profile criminals.

I'm probably the biggest Batman fan on the East Coast, but it does look kind of ridiculous... The Gotham City PD needs someone to hold their hand as they cross the street.

Though Gotham Central was one hell of a good storyline!

148 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:40:42am

re: #123 Steve

Charles you are right is stating that 'Islam has no monopoly on hatred' but these "Christians' that send you the hate mail have no real understanding of what it means to be Christian. I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of them are probably not Christian. Anybody can call themselves anything they want. How they live their lives is what determines who or what they are be it christian, islam, scientist, blogger or whatever.

That's exactly the same rationale that CAIR uses to excuse Muslims involved in terrorism.

149 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:40:49am

re: #144 CyanSnowHawk

So basically, one could say that we found a shitload of WMDs over in Iraq. Congress said so.

Sounds like dem logic

150 Jim D  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:41:14am

re: #73 MikeAlv77

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember having to choose a confirmation name.
You just deperately want to hate Muslims, don't you?

151 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:41:36am

re: #125 _RememberTonyC

Too bad there is no such thing as "Bacon.grease.boarding."

That would be so popular that you could charge a premium for it in the finest NYC restaurants.

152 _RememberTonyC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:41:43am

re: #136 NJDhockeyfan

That would give them a porkgasm.


wow ... that's some serious "ribbing" you've got working there!

153 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:41:45am

re: #15 MikeAlv77

and these guys converted in prison.. Sounds like we need an investigation into who they have in prison as imams...

Interestingly this comes right after the head of the FBI is on record stating that it would be a bad thing to put the GITMO detainees into the US prison system because some groups run their operations from said prisons and recruit in those prisons... followed by the O' coming out the next day and saying it's not a problem to stick them in the US prison system...
yargle...

154 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:42:13am

re: #151 CyanSnowHawk

That would be so popular that you could charge a premium for it in the finest NYC restaurants.

Well, technically you can charge for putting panties on someones head as well.

155 Fenway_Nation  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:42:19am

re: #107 Ben Hur

I think in the interest of investigative journalism, I'll have to experience the new, controversial expermental technique known as Bacardiboarding firsthand.

156 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:42:20am

re: #150 Jim D

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember having to choose a confirmation name.
You just deperately want to hate Muslims, don't you?

Yikes! He only asked a question.

157 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:42:20am

re: #7 MandyManners

When will that shit-slinging ape Hoopie pop up and give the "No True Scotsman" defense?

Just as soon as he finishes his haggis.

/

158 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:42:34am

re: #147 SteveC

I'm probably the biggest Batman fan on the East Coast, but it does look kind of ridiculous... The Gotham City PD needs someone to hold their hand as they cross the street.

Though Gotham Central was one hell of a good storyline!

I'll have to check that out. I'm always looking for good Batman & other super's stories.

159 calcajun  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:42:35am

Why do I get the image of these four guys, sitting around their garage on Friday after paryers, getting worked up over the state of the world, sipping beers (O'Doul's) and then one of them going, "Hey, I got an idea! Let's..."

The question is where were they going to get the ordnance to carry it off.

160 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:43:07am

re: #91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

First & last name?

There are no "last names" traditionally, there is name and patronymic.

The form of Hebrew name is [Person's name] [son/daughter of] [Father's name]

A convert who joins the Jewish people is considered the offspring of Abraham and Sarah, so their name will be [Person] [son/daughter of] Abraham

Also, when praying for someone, the matronymic is used [Person's name] [son/daughter of] [Mother's name]

161 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:43:14am

One of the mosque leaders in Newburgh has said that he had to continually correct one of the suspects on their knowledge of Islamic law. That's not surprising.

162 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:43:33am

re: #159 calcajun

Why do I get the image of these four guys, sitting around their garage on Friday after paryers, getting worked up over the state of the world, sipping beers (O'Doul's) and then one of them going, "Hey, I got an idea! Let's..."

The question is where were they going to get the ordnance to carry it off.

The local FBI informant I guess?

163 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:43:35am
164 MJ  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:43:46am

re: #129 lawhawk

Omitted from that list is Naveed Haq's murderous rampage at a Seattle Jewish Center.

Yes, the list seems incomplete to me too.

165 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:43:55am

re: #145 Jim D

Utter bullcrap. There are plenty of Christians that have no problem using their religion to justify criminal behavior. Or are abortion clinic bombers not 'true Christians'?


They are not. Again.. not people who claim to be christians or muslims or anything else. I have met plenty of people who claim to be something but don't follow its teachings. Read the holy books of the religion itself. What does it say... what does it ask its followers to do.

166 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:43:59am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Obviously these gentlemen were the victims of illegal police profiling.

/


That's what some of the idiots at DU and Huff are saying.

167 calcajun  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:44:19am

re: #141 Russkilitlover

It's also true that very few jihadists come out of Presbetyrian churches.

Agreed. It's well known that the Lutherans produce most of them, with the Unitarians being a close second.///

168 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:44:37am

re: #61 lawhawk

re: #44 rumcrook

Never mind that the majority of those killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan (and Iraq) are Muslims murdering fellow Muslims.


They're Muslims murdering those who claim to be Muslims but do not properly obey the words of the Prophet (pork and bacon upon him).

169 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:44:42am

re: #150 Jim D

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember having to choose a confirmation name.
You just deperately want to hate Muslims, don't you?

And you are taking me out of context but feel free...

170 calcajun  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:44:53am

re: #162 Nevergiveup

You mean the local FBI?

171 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:45:00am

re: #165 MikeAlv77

They are not. Again.. not people who claim to be christians or muslims or anything else. I have met plenty of people who claim to be something but don't follow its teachings. Read the holy books of the religion itself. What does it say... what does it ask its followers to do.

By those standards, then no one is a true Christian, etc., as we all fall short of what we're asked of by the Lord.

172 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:45:01am

re: #163 buzzsawmonkey

I would love to see all the little folding card tables set up in the prison gym by recruiting groups on Career Day.

The name tags would be easy. You could fill out 100+ as "Hello! My name is: Mohammed" and be set for the whole day.

173 Truck Monkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:45:42am

re: #80 Alouette

People who convert to Judaism are required to take a new name, it can be any Hebrew, Aramaic, or even Yiddish name they choose.

Moishe?

174 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:04am

re: #45 zombie

Any American who vows to commit "jihad" against the United States should be charged with treason, as far as I'm concerned. If violent jihad doesn't qualify as treason, then what does?

Nothing as far as radicals/socialists and others working towards the same goal-destruction of the US goes. If we truly applied the definition of treason we'd have to double up the courts to handle the cases and execute a huge number of folks or strand them somewhere large and empty... like Devils Island or mebbe Antarctica...
We WON'T try people for treason until we either get nuked... or someone blows up a few blocks in a major city etc...

175 jcm  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:08am

re: #141 Russkilitlover

It's also true that very few jihadists come out of Presbetyrian churches.

Hot dish = WMD!

176 Right mind left  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:09am

Did anyone check their SUV's for Ron Paul bumperstickers?


/

177 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:09am

re: #145 Jim D

Utter bullcrap. There are plenty of Christians that have no problem using their religion to justify criminal behavior. Or are abortion clinic bombers not 'true Christians'?

As a Christian, I wouldn't have anything to do with them.

178 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:11am

re: #172 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The name tags would be easy. You could fill out 100+ as "Hello! My name is: Mohammed" and be set for the whole day.

Did you see American Carol? The opening scene has a terrorist leader calling out "Mohammed!" & everyone within earshot turned around & said "Yes?"

179 Look At My New Grandbaby!  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:42am

re: #173 Truck Monkey

Moishe?

Moishe is just a Yiddish pronounciation of Moshe (Moses)

180 MJ  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:43am

Harry's Place has a good piece on those individuals on the Left who seem to always defend bombings of Jewish targets:

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

181 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:46:54am

re: #178 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Did you see American Carol? The opening scene has a terrorist leader calling out "Mohammed!" & everyone within earshot turned around & said "Yes?"

Careful, according to JimD, you are hateful...

182 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:01am

re: #175 jcm

Hot dish = WMD!

Lutefisk is a Lutheran WMD.

183 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:03am

re: #163 buzzsawmonkey

I would love to see all the little folding card tables set up in the prison gym by recruiting groups on Career Day.

I wouldn't be all that surprised...

184 Jim D  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:05am

re: #165 MikeAlv77

again, bullcrap. I'm these guys can find plenty of justification for what they do in the bible.

185 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:10am

re: #179 Alouette

Moishe is just a Yiddish pronounciation of Moshe (Moses)

Chico.

186 CommonCents  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:14am

re: #54 notutopia

You're right on about this one! Hatred knows no bounds on religion. That horror piece about the Irish Catholic abuses is still sitting in my craw.

It's different. There is no Christian scripture to back up those actions. The same cannot be said for the Koran.

187 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:26am
188 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:30am

re: #123 Steve

Charles you are right is stating that 'Islam has no monopoly on hatred' but these "Christians' that send you the hate mail have no real understanding of what it means to be Christian. I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of them are probably not Christian. Anybody can call themselves anything they want. How they live their lives is what determines who or what they are be it christian, islam, scientist, blogger or whatever.

Even if they are Christian, sending out hate mail puts them at odds with God and they are in sin and out of fellowship with God. They need to get their act together.
My apologies for their hate mail.

Steve

There we go with "the Scotsman Logic." They are Christians.

189 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:30am
190 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:31am

re: #123 Steve

Charles you are right is stating that 'Islam has no monopoly on hatred' but these "Christians' that send you the hate mail have no real understanding of what it means to be Christian. I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of them are probably not Christian. Anybody can call themselves anything they want. How they live their lives is what determines who or what they are be it christian, islam, scientist, blogger or whatever.

Even if they are Christian, sending out hate mail puts them at odds with God and they are in sin and out of fellowship with God. They need to get their act together.
My apologies for their hate mail.

Steve

No True Scotsman much?

191 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:32am

re: #123 Steve

sending out hate mail puts them at odds with God and they are in sin and out of fellowship with God. They need to get their act together.

True dat.

192 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:47:37am

re: #173 Truck Monkey

Moishe?

I would never name myself "Hymen"
/

193 That's Mr. President to you  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:48:14am

re: #96 american sabra

Ha Ha. You're so damned funny. This investigation started last year on Bush's watch. Why didn't Obama stop it then? He certainly could have since that's what you're implying.

[out of character]

Heh - here is the rub: We don't know what Obama really thinks.

I'd like to say "actions speak louder than words" and then give the man credit for keeping many of the policy mechanisms he has previously condemned.

But we are dealing with a man whose entire career is making words speak much louder than actions (and inaction).

Further, if you take his speech this morning and couple it with the actions he is calling for, we don't have a clear picture of a policy. What we have is incoherence.

What a boon to all of the incompetents of the world were "incoherence" to be praised as erudite, non-ideological, supple, nuanced decision making as is the common set of descriptions of Obama's many contradictions.

I can go by his words and his actions. So far they constitute an amorphous mass that is expertly presented as brilliance in praise of a narcissist.

So I will continue to give the guy shit and try to make people laugh (and few people are trying to do that - a pathetic state of affairs in itself). If you don't think it is funny, that's OK. There are many tough rooms out there.

194 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:48:24am

re: #152 _RememberTonyC

wow ... that's some serious "ribbing" you've got working there!

No kidding, did you see this

[Link: www.bbqaddicts.com...]

dang, my arteries clogged just looking at it. I"m going to have to show that recipe to my neighbor, we'll probably end up making one.

195 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:48:41am

re: #192 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I would never name myself "Hymen"
/

Of course not, you'd "break" to easily under pressure?

196 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:49:05am
197 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:49:11am

re: #190 Salamantis

No True Scotsman much?

Yep, I posted the same thing a few back, it always comes don to "they are not really Christians." I get the same argument about the 2000 years of Christian sponsored anti-semitism.

Good grief.

198 Fenway_Nation  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:49:26am

Shoot...double post. Anyone else getting the spinning pinwheel of doom?

199 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:49:30am

Here's the mosque in question, the Islamic Learning Center of Orange County/Masjid Alikhlas

200 tappin52  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:49:34am

I am about 25 minutes from Stewart Airport. My dad flew cargo jets in the Air Force during WWII. They are enormous and its difficult to imagine how something so big can stay in the air. I am currently seated on a Grand Jury in the Southern District of New York and I hope this case comes our way.

201 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:49:37am

re: #194 turn

No kidding, did you see this

[Link: www.bbqaddicts.com...]

dang, my arteries clogged just looking at it. I"m going to have to show that recipe to my neighbor, we'll probably end up making one.

That looks good!

202 dhg4  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:50:29am

re: #161 lawhawk

One of the mosque leaders in Newburgh has said that he had to continually correct one of the suspects on their knowledge of Islamic law. That's not surprising.

I guess that reduces the likelihood that there's a Finsbury Square type mosque in Newburgh.

But what I'm curious about is whether the FBI had consulted with CAIR about this plot at all. The reason the FBI said that it would no longer work for CAIR, was because of its ties to Hamas. Could CAIR have been uncooperative with the investigation?

203 coloradobuff  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:50:53am

re: #123 Steve

Charles you are right is stating that 'Islam has no monopoly on hatred' but these "Christians' that send you the hate mail have no real understanding of what it means to be Christian. I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of them are probably not Christian. Anybody can call themselves anything they want. How they live their lives is what determines who or what they are be it christian, islam, scientist, blogger or whatever.

Even if they are Christian, sending out hate mail puts them at odds with God and they are in sin and out of fellowship with God. They need to get their act together.
My apologies for their hate mail.

Steve

I agree. While words are important, actions speak much louder, as far as I'm concerned.

204 SteveC  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:51:14am

re: #158 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I'll have to check that out. I'm always looking for good Batman & other super's stories.

It is good! You will like!

205 Mike in Boulder  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:51:22am

So where did the money come from to purchase these weapons? There has to be a lot more behind this story.

206 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:51:28am

re: #199 lawhawk

Here's the mosque in question, the Islamic Learning Center of Orange County/Masjid Alikhlas

Heh, Keith Ellison sponsored the Ramadan legislation. go figure.

207 mattm  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:51:36am

ROPMA!

208 NY Nana  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:51:47am

re: #118 Lincolntf

They can have Massachusetts.

No way! I am from MA, as are other Lizards...Taxachusetts is waaay too good for them, and they are not fit to be anywhere near the Red Sox!

It feels great to be able to joke over these bastards...thinking of the alternative?

We live about 20-25 minutes away from Riverdale.

209 calcajun  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:52:01am

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

No, actually, they are not. Calling yourself something does not necessarily make it so. The polls in fact have people identifying themselves as "Christian" without asking more--like church affiliation, attendance, etc..

sigh--I have some more to offer, but I have to mine my quota of salt.

bbl

210 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:52:19am

re: #192 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I would never name myself "Hymen"
/


Us "hybrids" (American/Israeli) have a tough time finding names in English that work in Hebrew, and vice versa.

There is a very long list.

Example: Some names that work in Hebrew but not in English:

Nimrod.
Dor.
Dror.
On.
Amit. (you wanna fish? or amit?)
Osnat.
Moran.

There are a lot more.

211 Steve  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #148 Charles

That's exactly the same rationale that CAIR uses to excuse Muslims involved in terrorism.


Not quite. CAIR uses it to hide the fanatics.

No where in the Bible can I find anything to condone this type of activity by Christians. We are not to act as the rest of the world, we are to try and be above this type of activity. I personally would try and put a stop to it if I knew who they were or to what church they went to. Disagreeing with someones opinion is okay but hatemail is just wrong.

Send me some of their email addresses and I will contact them.

Steve

212 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #199 lawhawk

Here's the mosque in question, the Islamic Learning Center of Orange County/Masjid Alikhlas

Gah! Dallas Dem congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson's name is on that page, as a co-sponsor (with Keith Ellison) of a resolution pimping Ramadan. She's an idiot.

213 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:53:18am

CAIR's statement says exactly what you would expect:

[Link: news.prnewswire.com...]

214 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:54:11am

re: #193 That's Mr. President to you

I think it's funny. In fact, I think you've nailed Obama's internal dialog.

215 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:54:31am

re: #209 calcajun

No, actually, they are not. Calling yourself something does not necessarily make it so. The polls in fact have people identifying themselves as "Christian" without asking more--like church affiliation, attendance, etc..

sigh--I have some more to offer, but I have to mine my quota of salt.

bbl

I don't agree. Look up "the true scotsman." It's an easy way out, just dismiss the whole history of bigotry or some other moral problem by claiming "they are not really Christian."

216 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:54:53am

re: #160 Alouette

There are no "last names" traditionally, there is name and patronymic.

The form of Hebrew name is [Person's name] [son/daughter of] [Father's name]

A convert who joins the Jewish people is considered the offspring of Abraham and Sarah, so their name will be [Person] [son/daughter of] Abraham

Also, when praying for someone, the matronymic is used [Person's name] [son/daughter of] [Mother's name]

For converts, it is bar Avraham or bat Sarah. the Patriarchs of Judaism.

And most people still go by their original names except in religious matters (when they're being prayed for; when they're called to the Torah, etc.)

217 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:55:40am
218 calcajun  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:55:46am

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

Again--not true "Christian" sentiment but using scripture as a rationalization for bigotry. I cannot see how "Christians" can be antisemitic as their professed Lord and Savior was a Jewish carpenter.

Interesting historical point--how would history have been different if their had been a way to harmonize the growing Christian sect of Judaism with traditional Judaism at the Council of Nicaea.

219 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:55:49am

re: #213 Charles

CAIR's statement says exactly what you would expect:

[Link: news.prnewswire.com...]

CAIR also requested that media outlets and public officials refrain from linking this case to mainstream Islam and to challenge those who will inevitably exploit this disturbing incident to promote anti-Muslim fear and stereotypes.

SNIP

[NOTE TO EDITORS: American Muslims are often accused of not speaking out forcefully against acts of terror committed in the name of Islam. This statement, along with the many other past anti-terror statements by mainstream Muslim groups, reaffirms the American Muslim community's unequivocal condemnation of terrorism in all its forms.]

One of the funniest things I've read today.

220 Gearhead  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:55:53am

re: #214 Russkilitlover

I think it's funny. In fact, I think you've nailed Obama's internal dialog.

And you nailed the fact that there seem to be two voices competing for control.

221 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:55:57am

re: #166 Mad Al-Jaffee

That's what some of the idiots at DU and Huff are saying.

I wonder how many of them are Jewish liberals who go to the synagogues that were the targets.

222 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:56:12am

re: #201 Nevergiveup

That looks good!

I wasn't kidding when I said we'd end up making one. That actually made me hungry, I had to go get some lunch.

223 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:56:12am

re: #211 Steve

Not quite. CAIR uses it to hide the fanatics.

No where in the Bible can I find anything to condone this type of activity by Christians. We are not to act as the rest of the world, we are to try and be above this type of activity. I personally would try and put a stop to it if I knew who they were or to what church they went to. Disagreeing with someones opinion is okay but hatemail is just wrong.

Send me some of their email addresses and I will contact them.

Steve

Contacting them will not change who they identify themselves as, or with. How are you gonna fix it?

Charles is correct, it is the SAME argument as used by CAIR and other groups when they want to isolate themselves from the real problem.

224 Earick  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:56:19am

re: #34 MikeAlv77

"Islam can be readily used to commit crimes since it allows one to hate various groups. Much more difficult or immposible to do so with other religions."

Duh!?! What!

I think you must have missed the antics of the 13th,14th,15th.. oh, and yes, the 16th century of European Christianity!

225 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:56:27am

re: #38 Charles

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. After some of the vicious hate mail I've gotten from people who call themselves "Christians," it's pretty obvious that Islam has no monopoly on hatred.

IMO the point trying to be gotten at here is how Islam views other groups etc is not just that it teaches hate etc but that it specifically admonishes the destruction/subjugation theft through over taxation and forgiveness of crimes against the "others" etc and can be much more readily used to justify* said crimes as non-crimes etc than most other religions.

*there's a lot less twisting of or taking out of context to justify acts in Islam than in most other religions. In effect when one says directly you must fight them all the time, everywhere etc and directly says kill them if they won't submit etc and directly advocates rape of non-submissive women etc there is a huge difference than having to twist and contort 900 ways to Sunday from other religious texts that generally are historic/situational specific in nature etc.

226 pegcity  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:56:28am

Damn if only Israel hadn't invaded Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq

227 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:56:50am

re: #221 Kosh's Shadow

I wonder how many of them are Jewish liberals who go to the synagogues that were the targets.

I didn't know Jewish Liberals go to synagogues?

228 CommonCents  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:57:18am

re: #210 Ben Hur

Us "hybrids" (American/Israeli) have a tough time finding names in English that work in Hebrew, and vice versa.

There is a very long list.

Example: Some names that work in Hebrew but not in English:

Nimrod.
Dor.
Dror.
On.
Amit. (you wanna fish? or amit?)
Osnat.
Moran.

There are a lot more.

I saw an interesting spelling of a Scandanavian version of the last name Cook the other day.

Cok.

I felt bad for the kids in U.S. schools.

229 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:57:30am

re: #224 Earick

"Islam can be readily used to commit crimes since it allows one to hate various groups. Much more difficult or immposible to do so with other religions."

Duh!?! What!

I think you must have missed the antics of the 13th,14th,15th.. oh, and yes, the 16th century of European Christianity!

I think he means today.

230 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:57:34am

I don't know. Finding Islam in prison seems to be specifically violent. I don't think it's the same for Christianity in prison. Those that find Jesus behind bars, don't get released and commit crimes in his name. Or least I don't recall ever hearing about it.

231 freedomsound  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:58:04am

Newburgh has been riddled with crime and drugs for at least 15 years to my knowledge. Not surprised the suspects resided there.

232 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:58:16am

Back to work. BBIAW.

233 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:58:19am

re: #228 CommonCents

I saw an interesting spelling of a Scandanavian version of the last name Cook the other day.

Cok.

I felt bad for the kids in U.S. schools.


Google: HOW TO SAY '12 MONTHS' IN ESTONIAN.

Watch the video.

234 Gearhead  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:58:36am
...bias-motivated crimes...

CAIR can't even call them 'hate crimes'? Is that un-PC now? If I use the phrase 'hate crime', am I committing a 'hate crime'?

235 MJ  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:59:09am

re: #129 lawhawk

Omitted from that list is Naveed Haq's murderous rampage at a Seattle Jewish Center.

Here's Daniel Pipe's list:

A History of Muslim Terrorism against Jews in the United States


The arrest yesterday of four would-be jihadis before they could attack two synagogues in New York City brings to mind a long list of terrorist assaults in the United States by Muslims on Jews. These began in 1977 and have continued regularly since, as suggested by the following list of major incidents (ignoring lesser ones that did damage only to property, such a series of attacks on Chicago-area synagogues):

March 1977: Hanafi Muslims seized three buildings in Washington, including the headquarters of B'nai B'rith, and held hostages for 39 hours, leading to one death and one severe injury.

November 1990: El Sayyid Nosair assassinated Rabbi Meir Kahane in a New York hotel.

February 1993: Ramzi Yusuf, the mastermind of the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York, which claimed 7 lives and injured more than a thousand people,, declared the towers not a civilian target but a military one, by virtue of the fact that it might house a "Zionist official."

June 1993: "Boom! Broken windows. Jews in the street," is how one of the plotters described the carnage that would ensue from a planned "day of terror" with simultaneous bombings of the United Nations complex, the Lincoln and Holland tunnels, and other New York landmarks..

March 1994: Rashid Baz, a Palestinian immigrant, opened fire on a van carrying Orthodox Jewish boys across the Brooklyn Bridge, killing 16-year-old Ari Halberstam.

July 1997: 'Ali Hasan Abu Kamal, a 69-year-old Palestinian, shot seven tourists atop the Empire State building, killing one and severely wounding another; in his suicide note, he accused the United States of using Israel as "an instrument" against the Palestinians.

July 1997: Ghazi Ibrahim Abu Maizar's near-explosion of a pipe bomb in the New York City subway system.

July 2002: Hesham Mohamed Ali Hadayet's attack on the El Al counter at Los Angeles International Airport, killing two

September 2005: Jam'iyyat Ul-Islam Is-Saheeh plot against two Los Angeles-area synagogues, disrupted due to a dropped mobile phone.

May 2009: Four arrested in attempt to blow up two New York City synagogues.

[Link: www.danielpipes.org...]

236 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:59:13am

re: #218 calcajun

Again--not true "Christian" sentiment but using scripture as a rationalization for bigotry. I cannot see how "Christians" can be antisemitic as their professed Lord and Savior was a Jewish carpenter.

Interesting historical point--how would history have been different if their had been a way to harmonize the growing Christian sect of Judaism with traditional Judaism at the Council of Nicaea.

Then I'll tell you what, you google "christianity anti-semitism history" and start reading, give yourself some time, there's 2000 years of history that you evidently need to catch up on.

I've left link after link on this subject. I don't know how ANYONE can deny that Christianity actively condoned anti-semitism for almost 2000 years. It has only been in the last 100-150 years that the issue has been addressed and some changes made.

Check Vatican II. How come they had to address Christian anti-semitism officially in their findings?

Go study and get back to me.

237 Steve  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:59:28am

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

Contacting them will not change who they identify themselves as, or with. How are you gonna fix it?

Don't know. But it is worth a try. If it works what then? If it doesn't work, you know where they stand. But at least I tried to do something about it.

238 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:59:38am

re: #227 Nevergiveup

Maybe you should read more about Reform Judaism.

239 John Neverbend  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:59:40am

re: #160 Alouette

Also, when praying for someone, the matronymic is used [Person's name] [son/daughter of] [Mother's name]

I believe this is a Sephardic custom. Ashkenazim use the Father's name when praying for someone.

240 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 10:59:46am

re: #233 Ben Hur

Google: HOW TO SAY '12 MONTHS' IN ESTONIAN.

Watch the video.

roflmao!

241 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:00:08am

Does the Koran contain more justification for acts of violence than other religious books? Possibly. But it's simply not true to say that you can't find justification for violent acts in the Bible. You can. The people who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors are able to quote verse after verse of scripture that they believe justifies their acts.

And the people who send me hate mail over my posts criticizing creationism often include Bible quotes to explain why I'm doomed to hellfire.

242 NY Nana  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:00:10am

I found out why they were so intent on killing Jews, a few months ago!

243 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:00:18am

re: #233 Ben Hur

Google: HOW TO SAY '12 MONTHS' IN ESTONIAN.

Watch the video.

That's a keeper!

244 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:00:30am

re: #230 American Sabra

I don't know. Finding Islam in prison seems to be specifically violent. I don't think it's the same for Christianity in prison. Those that find Jesus behind bars, don't get released and commit crimes in his name. Or least I don't recall ever hearing about it.


Islam is much more attractive to those who already have a propensity for violence. You get to do all the bad stuff and get blessed for it. Beating your woman is the gravy!

245 CommonCents  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:00:56am

re: #233 Ben Hur

Google: HOW TO SAY '12 MONTHS' IN ESTONIAN.

Watch the video.

Forwarded that one home. Video is verbotten at vork.

246 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:01:24am

I guess that all that reaching out to the Muslim world did not pay off.

247 Killian Bundy  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:01:50am

Four jihadis think they're blowing up a synagogue and get arrested.

/what does this incident have to do with Christians?

248 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:01:57am

Crazy Pam and Michelle Malkin are pimping for a group called Coalition to Preserve American Sovereignty today. Details are sketchy but it appears to have something to do with Ed Meese. I'm suspicious because Alex Jones and Stormfront were pimping this last wee. Anyone know anything?

249 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:01:59am

re: #233 Ben Hur

Google: HOW TO SAY '12 MONTHS' IN ESTONIAN.

Watch the video.

Oh.

250 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:02:07am

re: #241 Charles

Does the Koran contain more justification for acts of violence than other religious books? Possibly. But it's simply not true to say that you can't find justification for violent acts in the Bible. You can. The people who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors are able to quote verse after verse of scripture that they believe justifies their acts.

And the people who send me hate mail over my posts criticizing creationism often include Bible quotes to explain why I'm doomed to hellfire.

I wish I could give you 100 up dings.

251 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:02:20am
252 NY Nana  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:02:33am

re: #221 Kosh's Shadow

One is a member of the reform movement. Can't remember which.

253 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:02:42am

re: #241 Charles

You're doomed to listen to Arthur Brown?

254 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:03:18am

re: #234 Gearhead

CAIR can't even call them 'hate crimes'? Is that un-PC now? If I use the phrase 'hate crime', am I committing a 'hate crime'?

Bias motivated? Thats complete nonsense.

"I am broke. That guy looks like he money, so I will rob him." My bias was he had money.

255 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:03:22am

re: #248 Killgore Trout

last wee


You stink.

256 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:03:33am
257 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:03:39am

re: #29 Charles

I doubt there's very much "schooling in jihad" going on in prison. What's much more likely is that these guys were violent criminals to start with, went to prison, and learned to put an Islamic gloss on their already violent natures.

I agree, they probably get in contact after exiting prison and contacting radical elements on the internet or in their locale. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to vette prison libraries for extremist literature.

258 lobo91  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:04:06am

These jackasses would have been sorely disappointed if they'd actually tried to fire a Stinger at a US military aircraft, anyway.

The missile never would have locked on, because the IFF system would have prevented it.

259 Colin Nelson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:04:10am

Charles: Re your #29, As you likely know, Theodore Dalrymple writing in City Journal has written extensively on the issue of the effect of a rising (majority perhaps) of Muslims in the prison populations in the UK and France.

This one from the Times is interesting

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

260 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:04:27am

re: #239 John Neverbend

I believe this is a Sephardic custom. Ashkenazim use the Father's name when praying for someone.

At Chabad, they use the mother's name, but they use a lot of Sephardic traditions.

261 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:04:44am

re: #256 CommonCents

Not funny at all.

262 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:04:49am

re: #248 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam and Michelle Malkin are pimping for a group called Coalition to Preserve American Sovereignty today. Details are sketchy but it appears to have something to do with Ed Meese. I'm suspicious because Alex Jones and Stormfront were pimping this last wee. Anyone know anything?

Nope but I will be on the lookout.

263 joncelli  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:04:53am

re: #194 turn

I am in awe...of course my wife would shoot me before I could finish making it, but it might be worth it.

264 MJ  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:05:00am

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

Is that the planned attack on Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street that was thwarted, or is this another incident entirely?

Palestinian Gets Life Sentence For Planning to Bomb Subway

"Minutes before Judge Raggi, who could have chosen a lesser sentence, imposed the life term, Mr. Abu Maizar recited a list of grievances against the Jewish people, from Biblical days to the present. He also maintained that it was ''a lie'' that the Nazis killed six million Jews."

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

265 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:05:03am
266 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:05:27am

re: #261 Walter L. Newton

Not funny at all.

When a jihadi...

267 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:05:30am

re: #258 lobo91

These jackasses would have been sorely disappointed if they'd actually tried to fire a Stinger at a US military aircraft, anyway.

The missile never would have locked on, because the IFF system would have prevented it.

Hey there! Haven't seen you in a while.

Just the point I was making with my #22.

268 CommonCents  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:05:36am

re: #261 Walter L. Newton

Not funny at all.

It wasn't a joke.

269 Gearhead  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:05:49am

re: #248 Killgore Trout

...pimping this last wee.

Some people will do anything to raise money ;-)

270 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:06:02am

re: #27 Walter L. Newton

I have to quote Charles here...

"You must have missed the part where there was an informant inside the mosque who tipped off the FBI."

Not all mosques are full of terrorist, or hot beds of insurrection.

Not all Muslims are terrorists but it seems that most terrorists are Muslims.

271 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #247 Killian Bundy

Four jihadis think they're blowing up a synagogue and get arrested.

/what does this incident have to do with Christians?

It's always a good day to remind people that no one's exempt from bigotry and justifying those actions by saying the acts are the will of God.

272 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:06:29am

Speaking of New York (where I was born), and off topic a bit, Tom Golisano is fed up with the taxes there, and Rush has some advice for him.

273 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:06:35am

re: #241 Charles

Yes. However there is a huge difference degree in how much one has to twist and take out of context etc to justify violence between Islam and other Religions. From the Koran you can take directions, it is a manual for spreading and ideology by terror and violence with plenty of directives to commit violence that are both situational and general actions to be taken whenever one can etc. Justification of violence through the New and Old Testament usually requires a degree of either taking out of context or a degree of misinterpretation and some mental gymnastics etc.

274 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:06:39am

re: #256 CommonCents

When a Christian says you are doomed to hellfire that means you will sit in judgement in front of God.

And why is it any Christian's place to tell me how God will judge me? This kind of stuff is pure unvarnished hatred. And people who scream about hellfire are just as likely to commit violence, whether they're Christian or Muslim. It's an indicator of an unstable mind.

275 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:07:09am

re: #258 lobo91

These jackasses would have been sorely disappointed if they'd actually tried to fire a Stinger at a US military aircraft, anyway.

The missile never would have locked on, because the IFF system would have prevented it.

What about civilian planes?

276 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:07:10am

re: #268 CommonCents

It wasn't a joke.

Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.

Charles' rule, not mine. Just trying to help you out.

277 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:07:37am

re: #270 Joel

Not all Muslims are terrorists but it seems that most terrorists are Muslims.

Which of course has NOTHING to do with my comment or Charles. Try again.

278 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:08:10am

re: #262 Thanos

There also seem to be a few connections to the Heritage Foundation too. I'm seeing a lot of them these days. I'm not saying these groups are evil or anything but I just think it's strange that they seem pretty influential in what's going on with conservatives but nobody knows who they are and what their agenda really is.

279 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:08:28am

re: #276 Walter L. Newton

Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.

Charles' rule, not mine. Just trying to help you out.

Shooting a Jihadi is not a call to violence, but one of self defense.

280 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:08:56am

re: #258 lobo91

These jackasses would have been sorely disappointed if they'd actually tried to fire a Stinger at a US military aircraft, anyway.

The missile never would have locked on, because the IFF system would have prevented it.

I think we should make Stinger missiles that then say something like "Press this to override", and when they do, the warhead goes off without launching, thereby taking out the terrorists.

281 wiffersnapper  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:09:09am

Glad to see the AP is calling it like it is for once. Long overdue.

282 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:09:18am

re: #265 unrealizedviewpoint

Don't quote comments bound to be deleted!

Tired of reminding people. Very tired.

283 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:09:20am

While we are talking about this, let's not forget to thank the great efforts of law enforcement. This shows me that anti-terror efforts are working. The other thing it shows me is that the Feds are getting some help from moderate muslims inside the community, I don't think they are going to turn this stuff up all on their own.

284 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:09:50am

re: #278 Killgore Trout

There also seem to be a few connections to the Heritage Foundation too. I'm seeing a lot of them these days. I'm not saying these groups are evil or anything but I just think it's strange that they seem pretty influential in what's going on with conservatives but nobody knows who they are and what their agenda really is.

Please don't tell me your are now going to claim that the Heritage FOundation is some far right Paulian institution.

285 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:09:51am

re: #244 redstateredneck

Well yes, but violent criminals, I'm talking lifers, find Jesus, repent and put their violent lives behind them. Tex Watson (Charles Manson family member) comes to mind. He has a ministry in prison actually. It would be interesting to do a study on such a thing.

286 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:09:53am

re: #277 Walter L. Newton

Which of course has NOTHING to do with my comment or Charles. Try again.

Yeah there are some decent Muslims out there who abhor violence but lets face it, we don;'t worry about Presbyterians going splodeydope on our buses do we? I hope that is a better effort for you.

Btw if you do not know what splodeydope means - check the LGF dictionary.

287 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:10:05am

re: #280 Kosh's Shadow

Nice, but safeguards are built in to prevent that.

288 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:10:11am

re: #268 CommonCents

It wasn't a joke.

I guess Charles didn't agree with you. It's deleted, like it should be. Posting calls of violence here are simply used by other people who don't like LGF. They clip and paste remarks like yours and use it against Charles.

289 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:10:44am
290 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:10:50am

re: #285 American Sabra

Well yes, but violent criminals, I'm talking lifers, find Jesus, repent and put their violent lives behind them. Tex Watson (Charles Manson family member) comes to mind. He has a ministry in prison actually. It would be interesting to do a study on such a thing.

So do quite a few porn stars.

291 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:10:51am

re: #282 Dianna

Don't quote comments bound to be deleted!

Tired of reminding people. Very tired.

Wait a second...why is that bound for deletion?

292 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:10:57am

re: #286 Joel

Yeah there are some decent Muslims out there who abhor violence but lets face it, we don;'t worry about Presbyterians going splodeydope on our buses do we? I hope that is a better effort for you.

Btw if you do not know what splodeydope means - check the LGF dictionary.

Closer, no cigar.

293 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:11:05am

re: #79 MJ


July 28, 2006 – Naveed Afzal Haq walked into the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building and shot six women, one fatally. Based on Haq’s testimony from a 911 call, the incident was classified as a hate crime by police.

I remember that. It was horrible.

This story has always interested me because I happen to know someone who grew up in the same mosque; the person I know is very normal (and Haq was bi-polar, and even supposedly converted to Christianity as an adult) - but I just noticed in his Wiki that Haq's father works at a nuclear facility in Washington state (Hanford).

At the time of the incident, both of Haq's parents publicly expressed sorrow over the event (and as the sister of someone who suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, I can relate on that level), but that's got to be a hell of a place to work. I wonder how his co-workers treat him.

I also have to wonder just where Haq developed his underlying issues. The parents and the mosque seem pretty benign on the surface, so...?

294 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:11:10am

re: #274 Charles

people who scream about hellfire are just as likely to commit violence, whether they're Christian or Muslim. .

I can't agree with such an equivalency. Sorry, just can't.

295 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:11:19am

re: #275 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What about civilian planes?

Civilian aircraft don't have IFF transmitters. Maybe ones we send to Iraq did, but in general, they don't.

296 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:11:31am

re: #291 unrealizedviewpoint

Wait a second...why is that bound for deletion?

Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.

Simple enough.

297 lobo91  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:11:34am

re: #267 Ben Hur

Hey there! Haven't seen you in a while.

Just the point I was making with my #22.

Been kind of busy lately with training missions and stuff. Also a trip to the NRA Annual Meeting in Phoenix.

I'm home this week, outprocessing from active duty at Ft Carson, since the Army's decided it's too expensive to keep paying me.

298 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:11:52am

re: #285 American Sabra

Well yes, but violent criminals, I'm talking lifers, find Jesus, repent and put their violent lives behind them. Tex Watson (Charles Manson family member) comes to mind. He has a ministry in prison actually. It would be interesting to do a study on such a thing.

Oh, I completely agree with you. My point was that those who do not choose to repent of leave their violent past behind embrace Islam as it legitmizes their evil nature.

299 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:11:58am

Maybe I need schooling as to the definition of Jihadi?

300 John Neverbend  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:12:06am

re: #260 Kosh's Shadow

At Chabad, they use the mother's name, but they use a lot of Sephardic traditions.

I noticed that when Hebrew names are read out in US Conservative synagogues, for example when somebody is called up during the Torah reading, both the father's and the mother's Hebrew names are given. However, that might simply be a concession to egalitarianism.

301 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:12:17am

re: #291 unrealizedviewpoint

Wait a second...why is that bound for deletion?

Because it's a call for violence. And it's already gone.

I'm a little unclear on why Charles quoted it, myself.

302 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:12:22am

re: #298 redstateredneck
repent or leave

PIMF!

303 tappin52  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:12:50am

re: #274 Charles

That is the biggest problem that I have with anyone who claims to know how Judgement Day will play out. If you are a person of faith, you should know that you don't get to do the judging. None of us is so clean that we get a free ride into Paradise.

304 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:12:54am

re: #278 Killgore Trout

There also seem to be a few connections to the Heritage Foundation too. I'm seeing a lot of them these days. I'm not saying these groups are evil or anything but I just think it's strange that they seem pretty influential in what's going on with conservatives but nobody knows who they are and what their agenda really is.

It's all going to run back to Club for Growth I would wager, also note they are the leaders of the pack trying to slay all RINOs.

305 coloradobuff  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:13:11am

re: #241 Charles

Does the Koran contain more justification for acts of violence than other religious books? Possibly. But it's simply not true to say that you can't find justification for violent acts in the Bible. You can. The people who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors are able to quote verse after verse of scripture that they believe justifies their acts.

And the people who send me hate mail over my posts criticizing creationism often include Bible quotes to explain why I'm doomed to hellfire.

To me, actions speak louder. I personally don't worry nearly as much about a self-professed Christian killing thousands of people in a single shot in this day and age in the name of their religion. Some people like that exist, religious or not, but the problem is much greater with Islam, in my view.

306 Ojoe  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:13:15am

re: #274 Charles

It's an indicator of an unstable mind.

Religion viewed as a means of hitching one's own squalid desires to the power of God (mistakenly, it can't be done) attracts such minds.

307 alegrias  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:13:28am

OT

Today, Smilin' teen Somali Pirate Abdul Wali something or other pleads NOT GUILTY to hijacking the US Alabama last month.

Isn't it cute how these terrorists learn ACLU tactics so fast.

308 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #298 redstateredneck

Oh, I completely agree with you. My point was that those who do not choose to repent of leave their violent past behind embrace Islam as it legitmizes their evil nature.

And certain people embrace the kind of rhetoric like Phelps because it supports their evil nature.

309 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:13:49am

re: #248 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam and Michelle Malkin are pimping for a group called Coalition to Preserve American Sovereignty today. Details are sketchy but it appears to have something to do with Ed Meese. I'm suspicious because Alex Jones and Stormfront were pimping this last wee. Anyone know anything?

Frank Gaffney is connected to the "International Free Press Society," which promotes the Vlaams Belang in the US. And one of the people who works closely with him is Christine Brim, the raving nutjob associated with the "Center for Vigilant Freedom" who is one of the VB's biggest boosters in the US.

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

310 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #297 lobo91

Been kind of busy lately with training missions and stuff. Also a trip to the NRA Annual Meeting in Phoenix.

I'm home this week, outprocessing from active duty at Ft Carson, since the Army's decided it's too expensive to keep paying me.

Welcome home and try to enjoy yourself.

Have a beer on me. Somehow.

311 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:14:08am

re: #301 Dianna

Because it's a call for violence. And it's already gone.

I'm a little unclear on why Charles quoted it, myself.

Because it doesn't call for violence.

312 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:14:12am

re: #292 Walter L. Newton

Closer, no cigar.

How's this

"Islam is a great religion, a religion of peace, which has been hijacked by a few fanatics"

George W. Bush

313 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:14:39am

re: #290 Ben Hur

So do quite a few porn stars.

LOL I'm sure you didn't mean that to be funny, but I'm laughing anyway.

314 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:14:46am

re: #286 Joel

Yeah there are some decent Muslims out there who abhor violence but lets face it, we don;'t worry about Presbyterians going splodeydope on our buses do we? I hope that is a better effort for you.

Btw if you do not know what splodeydope means - check the LGF dictionary.

All I know is this:
I see plenty of Christians here decrying violence and anti-semitism displayed by fellow Christians.

I do not see a whole lot of Muslims here decrying violence and anti-semitism by fellow Muslims.

I have to wonder why that is.

315 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:15:08am

re: #305 coloradobuff

To me, actions speak louder. I personally don't worry nearly as much about a self-professed Christian killing thousands of people in a single shot in this day and age in the name of their religion. Some people like that exist, religious or not, but the problem is much greater with Islam, in my view.

Funny, I worry about hate, no matter what flavor, Islam, Christian or otherwise. But that's just me, I can't seem to compromise. Funny thing about that.

316 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:15:18am

re: #311 unrealizedviewpoint

Because it doesn't call for violence.

I read it as a call for violence. Your mileage may differ.

317 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:16:12am

re: #263 joncelli

Hey if you're inclined to print out that page, DON'T! I didn't realize the thing was 100 or more pages of comments. Had to unplug the printer to stop the feed.

318 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:16:25am
319 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:16:31am

re: #316 Dianna

I read it as a call for violence. Your mileage may differ.

Objects in mirror may be closer then they appear.

320 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:16:45am

re: #311 unrealizedviewpoint

Because it doesn't call for violence.

When a jihadi says you are doomed to hellfire, you'd better shoot him first.

What part about "shoot him first" don't you understand?

321 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:16:50am

re: #148 Charles

This is not true in all cases. The extremist white supremacist group Christian Identity uses the word in their name, but their literature and their organization has very little to do with any form of Christianity. They are not religious in any way. It's simple a label for masking their hatred. In this way they are very different from Muslim extremist groups like Hamas, which do practice Islam (if a particularly violent interpretation of it).

322 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:16:59am

re: #313 American Sabra

LOL I'm sure you didn't mean that to be funny, but I'm laughing anyway.

It was meant to be funny. And it's true.


10 Porn Stars Who Gave Their Bods to God

Not Entirely Safe for Work.

323 _RememberTonyC  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:17:11am

re: #194 turn

No kidding, did you see this

[Link: www.bbqaddicts.com...]

dang, my arteries clogged just looking at it. I"m going to have to show that recipe to my neighbor, we'll probably end up making one.


Seriously!

Islam forbids eating bacon & pork ribs, consuming alcohol, and seeing scantily clad women. No wonder they all are in a hurry to get to the great beyond. Life under those rules would suck in the extreme!

324 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:17:28am

re: #268 CommonCents

It wasn't a joke.

well it got nuked before I could read it at any rate.

325 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:17:38am

re: #319 unrealizedviewpoint

Objects in mirror may be closer then they appear.

Than! Than!

There is a difference!

/How many pet peeves can one woman have?!

326 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:05am

re: #272 rightside

Speaking of New York (where I was born), and off topic a bit, Tom Golisano is fed up with the taxes there, and Rush has some advice for him.

At least here in NY/NJ we still have California to kick around.

(Give us time, though. We'll be number 1 in taxes, deficits and governmental dysfunction soon.)

327 CommonCents  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:16am

re: #274 Charles

And why is it any Christian's place to tell me how God will judge me?

Good point. The judge not lest... thing.

328 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:36am

re: #316 Dianna

I read it as a call for violence. Your mileage may differ.

I really didn't read it that way. It was a play on an often told joke in many other forms. Understanding how Charles gets ravaged in other blogs and all I can understand how he is sensitive to things like this and it is his right to delete all he finds objective. It was on the edge yes, but it's a joke that has been told in many forms many times before.

329 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:40am

re: #314 reine.de.tout

Because unfortunately most of them in their heart of hearts feel no sense of disgust or shame when non believers are murdered. Hell - they don't give a sh*t when fellow Muslims are killed by other Muslims as well. Check out the reactions to 9/11 in Egypt, West Bank, Pakistan, Indonesia, etc.

330 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:43am

re: #325 Dianna

Than! Than!

There is a difference!

/How many pet peeves can one woman have?!

It depends if you can afford to feed them. I knew a woman who had 4 pet peeves, but she was on a fixed income, and she had to give 3 of them up for adoption.

331 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:53am

re: #309 Charles

Frank Gaffney is connected to the "International Free Press Society," which promotes the Vlaams Belang in the US. And one of the people who works closely with him is Christine Brim, the raving nutjob associated with the "Center for Vigilant Freedom" who is one of the VB's biggest boosters in the US.

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

Wowser, I want nothing to do with those serbia lobby nutball people. What the hell is Malkin thinking? No amount of tomato juice will get that stench out if you wade in too deep.

332 jcm  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:18:57am

re: #274 Charles

And why is it any Christian's place to tell me how God will judge me? This kind of stuff is pure unvarnished hatred. And people who scream about hellfire are just as likely to commit violence, whether they're Christian or Muslim. It's an indicator of an unstable mind.

Without getting in to deep they too many Christians make afundamental error.

They have decide that the Gospel, the Good News, is to frighten you into believing. That salvation is fire insurance against hellfire. That when you don't see things their way they feel free to take upon themselves that reserved to God, final judgment. They've decided they are smarter than God, that you utilizing a most fundamental thing giving by God, the free will to choose is an error.

They do so frankly in ignorance.

And yes, I suffer many slings and arrows of my fellow Christians for calling them out on this point.

333 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:19:11am
334 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:19:12am

re: #320 Walter L. Newton

When a jihadi says you are doomed to hellfire, you'd better shoot him first.

What part about "shoot him first" don't you understand?

A Jihadi is holy warrior who is going to kill you. I recommend one defend oneself. Handle it as you see fit. :)

335 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:19:36am

re: #326 experiencedtraveller

At least here in NY/NJ we still have California to kick around.

(Give us time, though. We'll be number 1 in taxes, deficits and governmental dysfunction soon.)

I am hoping that Giuliani will be the Governor of New York soon.

336 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:04am

re: #330 Walter L. Newton

It depends if you can afford to feed them. I knew a woman who had 4 pet peeves, but she was on a fixed income, and she had to give 3 of them up for adoption.

Well done!

337 joncelli  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:05am

re: #317 turn

I read some of the comments out of curiosity. I love it when the radicals come into a site called "BBQAddict.com" and lecture people about recipes for...wait for it...BBQ.

/Thanks for the warning -- I would have just copied and pasted the description of the process anyway.

338 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:06am

By the way, if you go to the International Free Press Society website right now, you'll find articles promoting the neo-Nazi-associated pro-Koln movement, and the fascist Vlaams Belang.

[Link: www.google.com...]

339 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:15am

re: #325 Dianna

Than! Than!

There is a difference!

/How many pet peeves can one woman have?!

Typing a 1000 miles a minute and she's hitting me over the head with a than. /

340 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:15am

re: #335 Joel

I am hoping that Giuliani will be the Governor of New York soon.

Don't hold your breath

341 alegrias  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:16am

canonically obligatory state of war...I read a description of jihad that sounded like that.

Very different than confirmation class oaths.

342 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:24am

re: #333 Iron Fist

Don't keep your peeves as a pet. Release them into the wild :-)

They'd starve if I didn't tend to them.

343 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:20:26am

re: #284 Ben Hur

Please don't tell me your are now going to claim that the Heritage FOundation is some far right Paulian institution.

No but I'd love to know where they get their money from. I'm thinking that somewhere behind the scenes there's a right wing version of George Soros who supplies the money and sets the agenda. We know who Soros is and can read his writtings and we know, more or less, where he gets his money and how he spends it. There's a fine line between grassroots and astroturf. I'm just wondering who's behind everything and where it's going.

344 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:21:14am

re: #258 lobo91

These jackasses would have been sorely disappointed if they'd actually tried to fire a Stinger at a US military aircraft, anyway.

The missile never would have locked on, because the IFF system would have prevented it.

Does it have an automatic "Wile E. Coyote" function, where if the missile is launched by unauthorized personnel it flies a loop and targets the ass of the perpetrators?

345 John Neverbend  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:21:17am

The lopsided coverage of this Jihad plot, particularly by the New York Times, will make excellent cannon fodder for John Derbyshire on Radio Derb.

346 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:21:23am

Interesting to see this thread devolve into a moral equivalency argument.

Koran - directs to various forms of violence in both situational and as a general SOP for how to live one's life. Covers justifying violence against those both within (women/transgressors of coded sins etc) and outside of the same faith (such as people of the book and polytheists etc).

Most other religions - Generally must be twisted or deliberately misinterpreted to justify violence outside of self defense.

347 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:21:36am

re: #332 jcm

Without getting in to deep they too many Christians make afundamental error.

They have decide that the Gospel, the Good News, is to frighten you into believing. That salvation is fire insurance against hellfire. That when you don't see things their way they feel free to take upon themselves that reserved to God, final judgment. They've decided they are smarter than God, that you utilizing a most fundamental thing giving by God, the free will to choose is an error.

They do so frankly in ignorance.

And yes, I suffer many slings and arrows of my fellow Christians for calling them out on this point.

BINGO.

348 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:21:47am

re: #323 _RememberTonyC

Seriously!

Islam forbids eating bacon & pork ribs, consuming alcohol, and seeing scantily clad women. No wonder they all are in a hurry to get to the great beyond. Life under those rules would suck in the extreme!


But didn't some of the 9/11 hijackers who went to flying school in Daytona frequent the Pink Pony? They must have though Allah couldn't see them in there.

349 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:22:14am

re: #309 Charles

That's interesting. Could all this trace back to the Robert Taft Club? I know it all sounds a "little tinfoil hat" but I'm a little curious about what's going on behind the scenes.

350 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:22:25am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

No but I'd love to know where they get their money from. I'm thinking that somewhere behind the scenes there's a right wing version of George Soros who supplies the money and sets the agenda. We know who Soros is and can read his writtings and we know, more or less, where he gets his money and how he spends it. There's a fine line between grassroots and astroturf. I'm just wondering who's behind everything and where it's going.

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

351 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:22:27am

re: #298 redstateredneck

Oh, I completely agree with you. My point was that those who do not choose to repent of leave their violent past behind embrace Islam as it legitmizes their evil nature.

I don't know. Could be. I don't know prison culture really. Seems like Black guys gravitate to the Islam thing. The violent white guys either find Jesus or become neo-Nazis. Ya think?

352 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:22:39am

re: #340 Nevergiveup

Don't hold your breath

Au contraire, I think he will be. He took over from Dinkins in 1993 when NYC was going down the toilet.

353 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:22:41am

re: #342 Dianna

They'd starve if I didn't tend to them.

Make sure they're splayed or natured, if you don't intend to breed them.

354 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:22:49am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Go to guidestar and look up their 990-PF.

It's not difficult. Or go to their site and check their annual report.

355 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:22:50am

re: #283 Thanos

While we are talking about this, let's not forget to thank the great efforts of law enforcement. This shows me that anti-terror efforts are working. The other thing it shows me is that the Feds are getting some help from moderate muslims inside the community, I don't think they are going to turn this stuff up all on their own.

Well that has to be one of the most encouraging things I've read about this incident, I sure hope you're right about that Thanos.

356 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:23:15am

re: #351 American Sabra

I don't know. Could be. I don't know prison culture really. Seems like Black guys gravitate to the Islam thing. The violent white guys either find Jesus or become neo-Nazis. Ya think?

The Shoe bomber?

357 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:23:17am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

No but I'd love to know where they get their money from. I'm thinking that somewhere behind the scenes there's a right wing version of George Soros who supplies the money and sets the agenda. We know who Soros is and can read his writtings and we know, more or less, where he gets his money and how he spends it. There's a fine line between grassroots and astroturf. I'm just wondering who's behind everything and where it's going.

Could be.

But the left has been looking for him for years.

And not specifically a person.

It was Halliburton, than Blackwater, or was it the Skull and Bones society?

There is no question about Soros.

358 alegrias  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:23:18am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

No but I'd love to know where they get their money from. I'm thinking that somewhere behind the scenes there's a right wing version of George Soros who supplies the money and sets the agenda. We know who Soros is and can read his writtings and we know, more or less, where he gets his money and how he spends it. There's a fine line between grassroots and astroturf. I'm just wondering who's behind everything and where it's going.

* * * *
Ask Nancy Pelosi, she's the one who says folks who disagree are funded by "ASTROTURF" but probably swears Soros doesn't exist, though surely she's met with him a million times.

359 _RememberTonyC  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:23:24am

re: #348 redstateredneck

But didn't some of the 9/11 hijackers who went to flying school in Daytona frequent the Pink Pony? They must have though Allah couldn't see them in there.


hypocrisy is lost on suicidal jihadists ...

360 coloradobuff  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:23:31am

re: #315 Walter L. Newton

Funny, I worry about hate, no matter what flavor, Islam, Christian or otherwise. But that's just me, I can't seem to compromise. Funny thing about that.

Glad to hear it. Thank you for sharing. So do I. I'm just not enough of a relativist to believe that Christianity poses as great a threat to the modern world as Islam has over the last few years.

361 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:23:53am

re: #357 Ben Hur

Could be.

But the left has been looking for him for years.

And not specifically a person.

It was Halliburton, than Blackwater, or was it the Skull and Bones society?

There is no question about Soros.

And don't forget the Joos/NeoCons and the LOBBY!

362 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:23:56am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

No but I'd love to know where they get their money from. I'm thinking that somewhere behind the scenes there's a right wing version of George Soros who supplies the money and sets the agenda. We know who Soros is and can read his writtings and we know, more or less, where he gets his money and how he spends it. There's a fine line between grassroots and astroturf. I'm just wondering who's behind everything and where it's going.

They get their money from people like me.

Everything is a conspiracy theory to you or there is eeevil lurking around the corner.

363 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:24:02am

re: #352 Joel

Au contraire, I think he will be. He took over from Dinkins in 1993 when NYC was going down the toilet.

I hope your right, but I think the fire has gone out.

364 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #342 Dianna

They'd starve if I didn't tend to them.

There, their, they're...it'll be all right.
;-)

365 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:24:27am

re: #327 CommonCents

Good point. The judge not lest... thing.

Exactly. That is what the scripture actually means, as I understand it. People often distort it and use it to insist that Christians aren't supposed to discern good from evil, but what it really means is that it's not our place to speculate on what the result of God's judgment will (or should) be.

366 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:24:34am

re: #331 Thanos


Wowser, I want nothing to do with those serbia lobby nutball people. What the hell is Malkin thinking? No amount of tomato juice will get that stench out if you wade in too deep.


It is interesting but I don't think that's the end of the trail. I have suspicions but I think the source of all this is a group or individual we've never heard of before.

367 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:24:49am
368 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:25:05am

re: #303 tappin52

That is the biggest problem that I have with anyone who claims to know how Judgement Day will play out. If you are a person of faith, you should know that you don't get to do the judging. None of us is so clean that we get a free ride into Paradise.

There is a tradition in Judaism that when a soul is judged, he is asked to judge some sins that are, in fact, his own, but he won't recognize them as his own.

369 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:25:10am

re: #362 loppyd

They get their money from people like me.

Everything is a conspiracy theory to you or there is eeevil lurking around the corner.

Yeah like Rush controls the Republican Party - that is why we wound up with a milque toast like John "reach across the aisle" . McCain.

370 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:25:16am

re: #351 American Sabra

I don't know. Could be. I don't know prison culture really. Seems like Black guys gravitate to the Islam thing. The violent white guys either find Jesus or become neo-Nazis. Ya think?

That's how it works on t.v. and in the movies, so I reckon so!

371 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:25:48am

re: #368 Kosh's Shadow

he is asked to judge some sins that are, in fact, his own, but he won't recognize them as his own.

Just like life on this side.

372 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:25:50am

re: #367 Iron Fist

With Christians, you can get into arguements on whether or not violence in self-defense is allowed. I did on a regular basis back when I attended Church regularly. OTOH, I've never had a Christian try to recruit me for a bomb plot, or to hijack planes and crash them into a building, or to go stomp a little girl to death...You get the picture.

You obviously haven't seen the film, "Contact."

373 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:26:09am

re: #299 unrealizedviewpoint

Maybe I need schooling as to the definition of Jihadi?

There is more then one definition:

Definition: Jihad is the Arabic for what can be variously translated as "struggle" or "effort," or "to strive," "to exert," "to fight," depending on the context. In the West, the word is generally understood to mean "holy war," and the terms are given, exclusively military connotations.

The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam. But the Quran also refers to jihad as an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort. It is said that Prophet Muhammad considered the armed-struggle version of holy war "the little jihad," but considered the spiritual, individual version of holy war--the war within oneself--as "the great jihad."

374 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:26:19am

re: #350 Walter L. Newton

"The foundation received $2. 2 million from the Federation of Korean Industries in the early 1980s. Initially it was believed this donation came from the Korean Central Intelligence Agency (which would make the Heritage Foundation a foreign agent of Korea), but the Federation later stated that the donation came at the encouragement of the KCIA."

"The Heritage Foundation's income has increased every year since 1981. The progression has been: 1981--$7. 1 million; 1982-$8. 6 million; 1983--$10. 6 million; 1984--$10. 7 million; 1985-$11. 6 million; 1986--$14. 0 million; 1987--$14. 3 million; and 1988--$14. 6 million. In 1988, foundations provided 38 percent of Heritage's income, individuals provided 34 percent, and corporations gave 17 percent; the remainder came from investments and sales of materials.


Freaky.

375 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:26:42am

re: #363 Nevergiveup

I think it has not gone about of him. I saw him on Fox the other day and he looke good and hardly in a defeatist mood. Obama is energizing the GOP at lesat on the local levels.

That David Paterson sure is a great leader. /not

376 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:27:10am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

No but I'd love to know where they get their money from. I'm thinking that somewhere behind the scenes there's a right wing version of George Soros who supplies the money and sets the agenda. We know who Soros is and can read his writtings and we know, more or less, where he gets his money and how he spends it. There's a fine line between grassroots and astroturf. I'm just wondering who's behind everything and where it's going.

KT there are several. Most of them are pretty good people. One of the bad ones just switched party affiliations to D. The other bad ones are mostly dixiecrat/neoconfederate.

The good guys appear to be sitting on funds until the bloodletting is done, and I think they are letting the paleocons exhaust themselves now and they will step back up after. That's my theory anyway.

377 JohnnyReb  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:27:24am

re: #357 Ben Hur

Could be.

But the left has been looking for him for years.

And not specifically a person.

It was Halliburton, than Blackwater, or was it the Skull and Bones society?

There is no question about Soros.

I suspect Cheney. I mean he has been in the news alot lately right?

378 saberry0530  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:27:35am

re: #295 Kosh's Shadow

Civilian aircraft don't have IFF transmitters. Maybe ones we send to Iraq did, but in general, they don't.

All Commercial airliners have IFF transmitters and receivers on them.

379 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:27:37am

re: #373 avanti

There is more then one definition:

Definition: Jihad is the Arabic for what can be variously translated as "struggle" or "effort," or "to strive," "to exert," "to fight," depending on the context. In the West, the word is generally understood to mean "holy war," and the terms are given, exclusively military connotations.

The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam. But the Quran also refers to jihad as an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort. It is said that Prophet Muhammad considered the armed-struggle version of holy war "the little jihad," but considered the spiritual, individual version of holy war--the war within oneself--as "the great jihad."

Yeah, Fine, Dandy but if they weren't blowing up buses,Airplanes, and buildings nobody would know the word?

380 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:28:11am

re: #374 Killgore Trout

Freaky.

Sun Myung Moon/Moonies/Washington Times/Korea

/?

381 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:28:19am

re: #375 Joel

I think it has not gone about of him. I saw him on Fox the other day and he looke good and hardly in a defeatist mood. Obama is energizing the GOP at lesat on the local levels.

That David Paterson sure is a great leader. /not

Yeah, but look at his 2 last campaigns. Nothing to brag about.

382 CommonCents  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:28:36am

re: #324 turn

well it got nuked before I could read it at any rate.

What I said was deemed unappropriate. It was a very strict interpretation of the "violence" rule considering the context IMO. When I have my own blog I can make the rules.

I'm a victim dammit!
/s

383 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:28:38am

re: #373 avanti

Thank you Mr. Avanti.
Well aware. Everybody knows the reference was to the holy warrior Jihadi. Anyone who would confuse the two would be defined as mooonbat with an agenda.

384 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:28:39am

re: #335 Joel

I am hoping that Giuliani will be the Governor of New York soon.

I've seen lots of different governors come and go. They all fail.

Unless we also significantly change the legislature nothing will be accomplished.

I would certainly like to see Rudy as Governor but fear it would only end up tarnishing him.

385 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #373 avanti

There is more then one definition:

Definition: Jihad is the Arabic for what can be variously translated as "struggle" or "effort," or "to strive," "to exert," "to fight," depending on the context. In the West, the word is generally understood to mean "holy war," and the terms are given, exclusively military connotations.

The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam. But the Quran also refers to jihad as an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort. It is said that Prophet Muhammad considered the armed-struggle version of holy war "the little jihad," but considered the spiritual, individual version of holy war--the war within oneself--as "the great jihad."

Absolutely false.

It means Holy War more than anything else in the Mid East.

386 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:28:51am

re: #323 _RememberTonyC

Seriously!

Islam forbids eating bacon & pork ribs, consuming alcohol, and seeing scantily clad women. No wonder they all are in a hurry to get to the great beyond. Life under those rules would suck in the extreme!

Ha, the only thing batter than eating that dang thing would be doing it at the beach standing around a bbq with a beer in my hand and beautiful babes in bikinis in the background. Did I ever mention I'm not a Muslim?

387 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:06am

re: #354 Dianna

Go to guidestar and look up their 990-PF.

It's not difficult. Or go to their site and check their annual report.

Speaking of which, KT, here is a link for the page leading to their most recent annual report: Reports page

It also includes their audited financials, if you can wade through that.

388 jaunte  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:16am
The Greater Jihad controversy

The Prophet is said to have called the internal Jihad the "greater Jihad".

On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: "We are finished with the lesser jihad; now we are starting the greater jihad." He explained to his followers that fighting against an outer enemy is the lesser jihad and fighting against one's self is the greater jihad (holy war).

This quotation is regarded as unreliable by some scholars. They regard the use of jihad as meaning 'holy war' as the more important.

However the quotation has been very influential among some Muslims, particularly Sufis.
[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

389 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:18am

re: #362 loppyd

They get their money from people like me.


Not really. Progressives think Moveon is funded by small donations from everyday people. Not really. The real money comes from other groups. You might have sent it $100 bucks but the Federation of Korean Industries sent in $2 million.

390 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:23am

re: #374 Killgore Trout

Here's a hint KT: Who owns a paper in Washington?

391 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:34am

re: #283 Thanos

While we are talking about this, let's not forget to thank the great efforts of law enforcement. This shows me that anti-terror efforts are working. The other thing it shows me is that the Feds are getting some help from moderate muslims inside the community, I don't think they are going to turn this stuff up all on their own.

Absolutely - that's the story behind this story. And I'm sure that's another big reason why this is the first jihad plot that's come to the surface in more than a year -- and this one was caught long before they had a chance to hurt anyone.

392 Altermite  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:39am

re: #369 Joel

Yeah like Rush controls the Republican Party - that is why we wound up with a milque toast like John "reach across the aisle" . McCain.


Rush has so little influence that Steele had to take back calling him 'just an entertainer'.

I haven't been able to buy the whole 'Rush is incidental to the republican party' line since that incident.

393 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:45am

re: #374 Killgore Trout

Freaky.

OMG. I must cancel my membership forthwith!

/

Get a grip.

394 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:29:51am

re: #381 Nevergiveup

What 2 campaigns? He had a poor strategy for president last year. What was the other campaign?

395 Truck Monkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #285 American Sabra

Well yes, but violent criminals, I'm talking lifers, find Jesus, repent and put their violent lives behind them. Tex Watson (Charles Manson family member) comes to mind. He has a ministry in prison actually. It would be interesting to do a study on such a thing.

Chuck Colson (Watergate) also has a very large prison ministry.

396 MikeAlv77  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:30:21am

re: #347 reine.de.tout

Thank you for making my point again...

Many updings!

397 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:30:24am

re: #389 Killgore Trout

Not really. Progressives think Moveon is funded by small donations from everyday people. Not really. The real money comes from other groups. You might have sent it $100 bucks but the Federation of Korean Industries sent in $2 million.

We have a lot to fear from the S Koreans.

398 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:30:27am

re: #376 Thanos

That's plausible.

re: #380 Gus 802

I have no clue. That certainly is an odd one.

399 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:30:42am

re: #380 Gus 802

Sun Myung Moon/Moonies/Washington Times/Korea

/?

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe the Korean Central Intelligence Agency used to strongly oppose Moon. For - from their pov - very good reasons.

400 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:30:50am

re: #389 Killgore Trout

Not really. Progressives think Moveon is funded by small donations from everyday people. Not really. The real money comes from other groups. You might have sent it $100 bucks but the Federation of Korean Industries sent in $2 million.

I don't fucking care!

401 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:31:00am

re: #368 Kosh's Shadow

There is a tradition in Judaism that when a soul is judged, he is asked to judge some sins that are, in fact, his own, but he won't recognize them as his own.

crafty
/

402 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:31:12am

re: #394 Joel

What 2 campaigns? He had a poor strategy for president last year. What was the other campaign?

Before he dropped out of the Senate Race against Hilliary. I know he got cancer, but he wasn't doing so great before that came up.

403 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:31:15am

re: #384 experiencedtraveller

After teh phony Pataki, the criminal Spitzer, and the woefully inept Paterson, I would like to see Rudy in Albany. He at least knows that you do not punish the productive sectors of society. Something President Urkel needs to realize.

404 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:31:26am

re: #359 _RememberTonyC

hypocrisy is lost on suicidal jihadists ...

Well, there are a lot of Baptists that think God can't see them in the liquor store, either!

405 jcm  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:31:29am

re: #373 avanti

I deal with my inner struggles by looking to buy C-4 too.

///

406 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:31:55am

re: #379 Nevergiveup

Yeah, Fine, Dandy but if they weren't blowing up buses,Airplanes, and buildings nobody would know the word?

True, just don't assume the word always means a violent act even though the ass holes have made it seem like one.

407 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:32:23am

re: #369 Joel

Yeah like Rush controls the Republican Party - that is why we wound up with a milque toast like John "reach across the aisle" . McCain.

A real radical right winger, he was.

408 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:32:31am

Just for you Killgore - something meaty for you to chew on.

Secret Meeting of The Wealthiest

409 Truck Monkey  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:32:32am

re: #348 redstateredneck

But didn't some of the 9/11 hijackers who went to flying school in Daytona frequent the Pink Pony? They must have though Allah couldn't see them in there.


Stan was most definately at the Pink Pony with his Mohammedan warriors.

410 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:32:39am

re: #389 Killgore Trout

I understand what you're saying, but please read the freakin' reports before you begin making blanket pronouncements, will you?

411 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:32:40am

re: #7 MandyManners

When will that shit-slinging ape Hoopie pop up and give the "No True Scotsman" defense?

No true shit-slinging ape would use the "no true Scotsman" defense.

412 solomonpanting  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:32:46am

re: #373 avanti

So, which definition of jihad do you think these four "gentlemen" had in mind? I hear there's 72 versions.

413 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #337 joncelli

I wanted the pictures, yeah them bbq folk get serious about it don't they? btw, my neighbor is from Texas and one of the first things he did when he moved into the house was, get this, get one of those trailer mounted smokers with that huge ass smoker tank. Yeah, wes is serious about it.

414 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:33:02am
415 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:33:22am

re: #393 loppyd

Uhhh...you misunderstand me. As I said earlier; I'm not saying there's anything wrong with these groups or that they're evil. I'm just wondering who they are and who's behind them. I think it's a perfectly legitimate question.

416 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:33:29am

re: #406 avanti

True, just don't assume the word always means a violent act even though the ass holes have made it seem like one.

Please everyone here knows what it means. Go educate the Liberals on national security ok.

417 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:33:40am

re: #402 Nevergiveup

Before he dropped out of the Senate Race against Hilliary. I know he got cancer, but he wasn't doing so great before that came up.

That was a long time ago and there wasa this thing called 9/11 that came up afterwards. Besides I think he would have given Hillary all she could handle.

418 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:01am

re: #416 Nevergiveup

Please everyone here knows what it means. Go educate the Liberals on national security ok.

LOL

419 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:08am

re: #400 loppyd

Wow, calm down. Just asking questions. If you aren't curious that's fine. I am.

420 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:14am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

Uhhh...you misunderstand me. As I said earlier; I'm not saying there's anything wrong with these groups or that they're evil. I'm just wondering who they are and who's behind them. I think it's a perfectly legitimate question.

Have fun in your quest for the truth.

421 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:27am

re: #398 Killgore Trout

re: #399 Dianna

Just thinking aloud and waking up on my end. There is of course the proverbial Heritage Foundation+ Intelligent Design factor to consider.

422 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:28am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

No but I'd love to know where they get their money from. I'm thinking that somewhere behind the scenes there's a right wing version of George Soros who supplies the money and sets the agenda. We know who Soros is and can read his writtings and we know, more or less, where he gets his money and how he spends it. There's a fine line between grassroots and astroturf. I'm just wondering who's behind everything and where it's going.

Here is the Sourcewatch page on The Heritage Foundation. Aside from traditional fundraising the beggar letters which I get from them from time to time, ever since I asked for and got their pocket U.S. Constitution and Declaration of Indepence, they seem to have a solid connection to S Korea and Taiwan. Their roots seem to go pretty deep, but they don't beg as much as the NRA.

423 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:32am

re: #350 Walter L. Newton

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...] Scaife has long been held in the same kind of contempt that people talk of Soros.

424 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:43am

re: #417 Joel

That was a long time ago and there wasa this thing called 9/11 that came up afterwards. Besides I think he would have given Hillary all she could handle.

Look I like him and all, but he has run shitty campaigns.

425 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:34:46am

re: #373 avanti

There is more then one definition:

Definition: Jihad is the Arabic for what can be variously translated as "struggle" or "effort," or "to strive," "to exert," "to fight," depending on the context. In the West, the word is generally understood to mean "holy war," and the terms are given, exclusively military connotations.

The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam. But the Quran also refers to jihad as an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort. It is said that Prophet Muhammad considered the armed-struggle version of holy war "the little jihad," but considered the spiritual, individual version of holy war--the war within oneself--as "the great jihad."

FAIL!

You are hereby challenged to find that sura. You can't because it does not exist. Clearly, you have drunk deeply from the well of liberal Kool-Aid.

Muhammad defined 2 types of jihad: the lesser jihad is the defense of Muslim land when attacked by infidels. it is incumbent upon all Muslim males to fight in this jihad. The second, Greater Jihad, was the war of conquest against the infidels. This jihad is not obligatory, and a Muslim takes it on voluntarily. For this reason he is most blessed in Allah's eyes, and that is why it is called the Greater Jihad.

The "peaceful inner struggle" definition of jihad came from a 19th Century Islamic scholar who attempted to reconcile the concept of jihad with the modern era of international relations. He proposed "inner struggle" as a substitute for violent jihad. For his efforts he was condemned by other Islamic scholars as an apostate.

We await your answer...

426 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:35:16am

re: #400 loppyd

I don't fucking care!

Remember, caring about connections remains important.

I don't believe the Heritage Foundation is a conspiracy - any more than I think the Foundation I work for is - but it does no harm to look into the history of any organization.

427 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:35:18am

re: #408 Russkilitlover

Yes Alex Jones and the Paulians have been freaking out about this for weeks.

428 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:35:23am

re: #419 Killgore Trout

Wow, calm down. Just asking questions. If you aren't curious that's fine. I am.

Let me know when you find the link to Ron Paul or Stormfront.

429 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:35:26am

re: #407 loppyd

A real radical right winger, he was.

LOL! A more liberal Republican would have been Chafee, Hagel, Collins, Snowe or Specter.

430 danrudy  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:35:57am

re: #350 Walter L. Newton

Hi Walter L Newton.

Sadly, I submit this is the exclamation point on our discussion regarding Muslim attacks on Jewish synagogoues and institutions of several weeks ago. ( I believe their intent was more then mere defacement)

Uncle?

LOL

431 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:36:03am

re: #383 unrealizedviewpoint

avanti's definition of jihad is wrong and unsupported by the Koran.

432 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:36:19am

re: #378 saberry0530

All Commercial airliners have IFF transmitters and receivers on them.

IFF or just ATC transponders? I thought the true IFF ones were encrypted I wouldn't want, say, an Iranian F-15 (assuming they got one to fly) to transmit the IFF of an airliner, or an Israeli F-15. The ATC coding is generally available because it needs to be worldwide; IFF should be secret.

433 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:36:36am

re: #423 lawhawk

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...] Scaife has long been held in the same kind of contempt that people talk of Soros.

I know nothing those people on the list. I was simply giving Killgore a source for some donation information.

I don't know anything about Heritage.

434 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:36:44am

re: #428 loppyd

Or neocons taking their orders from Halliburton and AIPAC.

435 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:37:01am
436 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:37:27am

re: #427 Killgore Trout

Yes Alex Jones and the Paulians have been freaking out about this for weeks.


ROTFL!

437 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:37:39am

re: #425 Kenneth

Please don't hold your breath, Kenneth. BTW, what's the frequency?

438 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:37:41am

re: #403 Joel

If Rudy won, DiCarolo's* better watch out.

*Albany strip club on Western Avenue frequented by Albany bigwigs to conduct lunch meetings.

439 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:37:43am

re: #421 Gus 802

Speaker(s):

Stephen C. Meyer, Ph.D.
Senior Fellow and Director,
Center for Science and Culture,
Discovery Institute
Host(s):

Hosted by:
Becky Norton Dunlop
Vice President, External Relations,
The Heritage Foundation


Heh. No surprise there. I don't know if we ever figured out who's funding the Disco Institute. That's a big fat clue.

440 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:37:53am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

Then check my link, KT.

441 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:38:13am

re: #432 Kosh's Shadow

Certain modes are classified.

442 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:38:39am

re: #426 Dianna

Remember, caring about connections remains important.

I don't believe the Heritage Foundation is a conspiracy - any more than I think the Foundation I work for is - but it does no harm to look into the history of any organization.

Kilgore wants to find a shady connection that he can harp on for the next decade. I question his motivation therefore I don't care what he finds.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the work the Heritage Foundation does.

443 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:38:55am

re: #382 CommonCents

ha. I actually had a comment whacked once, could never figure out why though. Wasn't violent or anything. oh well, it was a first at any rate.

444 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:00am

re: #430 danrudy

Hi Walter L Newton.

Sadly, I submit this is the exclamation point on our discussion regarding Muslim attacks on Jewish synagogoues and institutions of several weeks ago. ( I believe their intent was more then mere defacement)

Uncle?

LOL

Sure, uncle? I don't even know what you are talking about. I post so much stuff here, I don't really keep track of all my points. But, if it helps, uncle.

445 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:02am

re: #419 Killgore Trout

Wow, calm down. Just asking questions. If you aren't curious that's fine. I am.

The problem is your tendency to start making pronouncements from on high. It irritates some of us.

446 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:03am

re: #314 reine.de.tout

How would you know? And would you believe them if they did?

There was a walk in Tucson a few years back, Jews and Muslims. They walked from the temple to the mosque (or vice versa, I don't recall now). It was a solidarity of peace between people. It didn't bring peace to the world, but it was an outstretched hand, so to speak. My mom went. She said it was ok.

Anyway, it was condemned on this site because one of the Jewish women involved (I think she's a rabbi) is far left wing, so the whole thing was given zero consideration. And I was left with the feeling at the time that such things, Peace Walks were a waste of time.

Muslims peep their head out from under a rock and they get it smashed. I think it's a no win for them, no matter what they do.

447 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:08am

re: #441 rightside

Certain modes are classified.

The question is do the Israelis get the codes on Jan.1 2010?

448 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:14am

re: #424 Nevergiveup

He ran a great one in 1993 because the mayor (Dinkins) sucked a big one. NY State is being misgoverned by Paterson - Giuliani would destroy him. Paterson wants to tax stuff I buy from Amazon.

449 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:40am

re: #427 Killgore Trout

Yes Alex Jones and the Paulians have been freaking out about this for weeks.

Hit Post too soon. Meant to follow my howling laughter with the statement that I could have written your response for you! I'm not psychic, but I almost had that one pegged word for word.

450 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:55am

re: #421 Gus 802

re: #399 Dianna

Just thinking aloud and waking up on my end. There is of course the proverbial Heritage Foundation+ Intelligent Design factor to consider.

It makes me want to give them more money now. Just to piss you fools off.

451 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:39:57am

re: #382 CommonCents

What I said was deemed inappropriate. It was a very strict interpretation of the "violence" rule considering the context IMO. When I have my own blog I can make the rules.

I'm a victim dammit!
/s

We should request refund of our LGF dues.
/oh wait...

452 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:40:00am

re: #447 Nevergiveup

hmm, not following you...?

453 SixDegrees  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:40:24am

re: #2 Russkilitlover

I'm curious as to the "techniques" used to identify and infiltrate this group and to use them so thoroughly to get this arrest. I'm curious if it's anything Obama has or is planning to discontinue.

I share your concerns, but to be honest I would rather not have any such information revealed. Infiltration is the only effective means, ultimately, of dealing with this problem; it's how the KKK was finally brought under control. You're never going to completely eradicate people with such mindsets. Best to allow them to get together at their local haunts every week to piss and moan about their grievances to blow off steam, and keep a close eye on them from inside so any unpleasant actions can be detected and stopped before they get to a serious stage. To accomplish this, though, the techniques and extent of your infiltration must be kept under wraps.

454 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:40:26am

re: #445 Dianna

The problem is your tendency to start making pronouncements from on high. It irritates some of us.

Not me...
///

455 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:40:29am

re: #426 Dianna

Remember, caring about connections remains important.

I don't believe the Heritage Foundation is a conspiracy - any more than I think the Foundation I work for is - but it does no harm to look into the history of any organization.

Yes, as it's becoming increasingly important to check out where information and money comes from these days. It's tough to spend the time research an author before I read an article but it needs to be done these days. Whenever I see a group of foundation mentioned I want to know who they are before I consider their ideas.

456 alegrias  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:00am

OT

Jake Tapper asks Robert Gibbs about the 14% released GITMO boyz who return to Jihadis/jihadism.

457 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:03am

re: #439 Killgore Trout

Heh. No surprise there. I don't know if we ever figured out who's funding the Disco Institute. That's a big fat clue.

Never looked up who's funding the DI. Should be easy enough.

458 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:17am

re: #356 Nevergiveup

The Shoe bomber?

Oh he was a white guy, huh. Was he? Richard Reid? Was he a prison inmate before he shoe bombed? I don't remember.

459 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:22am

re: #450 loppyd

It makes me want to give them more money now. Just to piss you fools off.

{loppstah}!
Down south, we call what you're experiencing having had a bate of something.
:-)

460 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:23am

re: #446 American Sabra

Hey American Sabra you dinged me down up above, but I bet ( in fact I know) that left wing Jews have the lowest synagogue affiliation of all other Jews?

461 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:39am

re: #450 loppyd

It makes me want to give them more money now. Just to piss you fools off.

Is your comment "you fools" all inclusive, because if it is, fuck off.

462 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:44am

re: #425 Kenneth
Newtons bonus law: When erronious data is pulled from one's rear in the course of an internet discussion an equal or greater amount of data will be shoved down that persons throat.

463 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:46am

re: #425 Kenneth

FAIL!

You are hereby challenged to find that sura. You can't because it does not exist. Clearly, you have drunk deeply from the well of liberal Kool-Aid.

Muhammad defined 2 types of jihad: the lesser jihad is the defense of Muslim land when attacked by infidels. it is incumbent upon all Muslim males to fight in this jihad. The second, Greater Jihad, was the war of conquest against the infidels. This jihad is not obligatory, and a Muslim takes it on voluntarily. For this reason he is most blessed in Allah's eyes, and that is why it is called the Greater Jihad.

The "peaceful inner struggle" definition of jihad came from a 19th Century Islamic scholar who attempted to reconcile the concept of jihad with the modern era of international relations. He proposed "inner struggle" as a substitute for violent jihad. For his efforts he was condemned by other Islamic scholars as an apostate.

We await your answer...

I'll defer to your greater expertise on Islam. I just found most of the definitions referred to
the definition of jihad as several kinds of struggles. At the very least, it shows that Islam has as many interpretations of it's writings as Christianity did. I was unaware of the 19th century interpretations you cite, and stand corrected if you are correct.

464 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:41:46am

re: #431 Kenneth

avanti's definition of jihad is wrong and unsupported by the Koran.

Avanti's definition is my understanding.

465 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:42:20am

re: #54 notutopia

You're right on about this one! Hatred knows no bounds on religion. That horror piece about the Irish Catholic abuses is still sitting in my craw.

The difference is that the teachings of the Catholic church do NOT condone the molestation of children; whereas the teachings of the Koran condone the use of any force against the Jews. Individual actions aside, the teachings are the definitions of a religion.

466 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:42:42am

re: #457 Gus 802

Never looked up who's funding the DI. Should be easy enough.

The first lump sum of money the DI received was from William Ahmanson- the Reconstructionist.

467 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:42:44am

re: #448 Joel

He ran a great one in 1993 because the mayor (Dinkins) sucked a big one. NY State is being misgoverned by Paterson - Giuliani would destroy him. Paterson wants to tax stuff I buy from Amazon.

Hey I hope your right. I am from NJ but I'll contribute if he runs. Shit I'd vote for him if NYC was like Chicago.

468 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #464 unrealizedviewpoint

Avanti's definition is my understanding.

And is wrong.

469 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #456 alegrias

OT

Jake Tapper asks Robert Gibbs about the 14% released GITMO boyz who return to Jihadis/jihadism.

Did Gibbs blow off the question?

470 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:42:56am

re: #462 DaddyG

Newtons bonus law: When erronious data is pulled from one's rear in the course of an internet discussion an equal or greater amount of data will be shoved down that persons throat.

I never said anything like that.

471 alegrias  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:43:12am

OT

Gibbs disagrees with Cheney's assertion that GITMO/Bush Administration's security measures have made us safer!


Uh oh, he's going with the Obama argument that the USA is creating terrorists...a rallying cry for those to join the battle!


Jake Tapper disagrees... uh oh, fight fight fight!

472 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #386 turn

Ha, the only thing batter than eating that dang thing would be doing it at the beach standing around a bbq with a beer in my hand and beautiful babes in bikinis in the background. Did I ever mention I'm not a Muslim?

Mrs Turn is not reading this is she?
/

473 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #458 American Sabra

Oh he was a white guy, huh. Was he? Richard Reid? Was he a prison inmate before he shoe bombed? I don't remember.

I don't remember either if he was in Prison, but he was white.

474 John Neverbend  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:43:23am

re: #425 Kenneth

the well of liberal Kool-Aid.

I like that. It sounds like an appurtenance of the Demons of Ignorance that Milo encounters in The Phantom Toolbooth (The Terrible Trivium, The Threadbare Excuse, The Triple Demons of Compromise,...and their well of Liberal Kool-Aid).

475 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:43:43am

re: #450 loppyd

It makes me want to give them more money now. Just to piss you fools off.

It's your money, and (at least for now) you're free to do what you like with it.

476 dhg4  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:02am

Perhaps, I'm nitpicking but I wonder what if four white supremacists planned on attacking black churches, would the Times have carried the report in the New York Region section or the front page?

One thing to consider is that if you look at the FBI's hate crime statistics, there are about 1/3 the number of hate crimes directed towards Jewish targets as directed towards Black targets. (This ratio has been pretty consistent since they've been tracking hate crimes.) But the Jewish population is 1/7 the size of the Black population.

So shouldn't a hate crime directed towards Jews be more than a local story?

477 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:10am

Ok, the lizards are turning hostile. I'll find something else to do.
Later, folks.

478 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:20am

re: #431 Kenneth

avanti's definition of jihad is wrong and unsupported by the Koran.

I admitted that the sources on the internet I found disagree with you, and that you may well be correct. It was not "my" definition, it was the ones I found.

479 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:21am

re: #373 avanti

Is that you, Hoopie?

480 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:21am

re: #468 Ben Hur

And is wrong.

I've seen him wrong before. :)

I was wrong once, but I think I may have been wrong.

481 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:25am

re: #466 Sharmuta

The first lump sum of money the DI received was from William Ahmanson- the Reconstructionist.

That's very telling.

482 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:46am

re: #447 Nevergiveup

The question is do the Israelis get the codes on Jan.1 2010?

The Israelis will get shit from President Obama. People such as I warned Americans and American Jews who are worried about the existential threats to Israel's very existence that B. Hussein Urkel was no friend (he has hung around Israel haters all his adult life) but they bought into the "He is a friend" nonsense that Robert Wexler, Ed Koch, and others were spraying.

Chas Freeman, Merrill McPeak, Christopher Hitchens (Israel is the only country afflicted by Islamic terrorists whom Hitchens has no sympathy for) Samantha Power, Lincoln Chafee, Chuck Hagel, Zbigniew Breszinzski, Jimmy Carter, Rev, Wright, Bill Ayers, Edward Said, Rashid Khalili - hell, even Hamas endorsed him.

483 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:44:52am

re: #473 Nevergiveup

Richard Reid

484 John Neverbend  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:45:05am

re: #474 John Neverbend

I like that. It sounds like an appurtenance of the Demons of Ignorance that Milo encounters in The Phantom Toolbooth (The Terrible Trivium, The Threadbare Excuse, The Triple Demons of Compromise,...and their well of Liberal Kool-Aid).

Hmm. Freudian slip there. Toolbooth indeed!

485 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:45:07am

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

Is your comment "you fools" all inclusive, because if it is, fuck off.

If you count yourself as one of the fools who spends most of their waking hours searching for connections between conservative groups or tea parties and Ron Paul, Stormfront or ID then please include yourself.

486 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:45:10am

re: #477 Killgore Trout

Ok, the lizards are turning hostile. I'll find something else to do.
Later, folks.

No, KT. We're reacting negatively to being condescended at.

487 danrudy  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:45:13am

re: #444 Walter L. Newton

Fair enough... it wasn't a real big deal.
You had challenged me to demonstrate that there were any terrorist attacks (other then defacements ) on jewish sites (synagogoues, offices) by Muslims . I had listed a bunch of stuff.

When I heard about this event , our discussion came to mind as another one to add to the list.

It's one of those lists that you hate to see grow,

488 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:45:26am

re: #483 rightside

Richard Reid

handsome chap ha?
///

489 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:45:40am

re: #483 rightside

Richard Reid

That is one fugly individual.

490 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:46:04am

re: #481 Gus 802

They get a lot of money from the Ahmansons.

491 solomonpanting  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:46:27am

re: #473 Nevergiveup

I don't remember either if he was in Prison, but he was white.

A British citizen born in Bromley, South London and educated at Thomas Tallis School in Kidbrooke, London, he is the son of an English mother and a Jamaican father, who spent most of Reid's childhood years in prison. Reid became involved in street crime, writing graffiti with the name Enrol with FRF crew,[3] and spent time in a number of prisons, including Blundeston Prison, and Feltham Young Offenders' Institution, where he converted to Islam. It is reported that Reid followed an conservative-orthodox form of Islam known as Salafi or Wahhabi.[4]

492 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:46:34am

re: #446 American Sabra


Muslims peep their head out from under a rock and they get it smashed. I think it's a no win for them, no matter what they do.

Kudos to the local groups who try. I have great respect for several friends and neighbors who are American Muslims and are tolerent of others beliefs.

There needs to be some serious internal dialogue and housecleaning within Islam before any outreach to other groups stands a chance at widespread success.

On an individual and group level any group truly wanting to change their behavior should expect doubt and resistance from others. Genuine contrition requires some patience with the response. Unfortunately far too much of Islamic community around the world is still content to blame others and seek to destroy what they do not understand.

493 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:46:40am

re: #458 American Sabra

Oh he was a white guy, huh. Was he? Richard Reid? Was he a prison inmate before he shoe bombed? I don't remember.

Richard Reid was a Jamaican who looked more likely to be carrying a bong than a bomb.

494 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:46:50am

re: #489 redstateredneck

That is one fugly individual.

When he flew to Israel, they sat him next to a security officer.

495 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:46:58am

re: #485 loppyd

If you count yourself as one of the fools who spends most of their waking hours searching for connections between conservative groups or tea parties and Ron Paul, Stormfront or ID then please include yourself.

You may not care, or want to hear it, but there ARE connections between the tea parties and Ron Paul. Lots of them. These are things known as facts.

I'm sorry to see that facts don't matter to you.

496 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:46:59am

re: #456 alegrias

OT

Jake Tapper asks Robert Gibbs about the 14% released GITMO boyz who return to Jihadis/jihadism.

He might as well have asked Bill Gates what the Administration is doing about the Gitmo terrorists for all the clarity and knowledge that Gibbs exhibits.

497 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:47:13am

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

Calm down - it was aimed specifically at KT and Gus. Maybe at me - I'm not sure.

498 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:47:15am

re: #477 Killgore Trout

Ok, the lizards are turning hostile. I'll find something else to do.
Later, folks.

Throw a bunch of crap out there then retreat when people call bullshit on you...what strength of character you have their, Google Boy.

499 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:47:22am

re: #490 Sharmuta

They get a lot of money from the Ahmansons.

Looks like it. This is from sourcewatch.

By far the largest amount of funding goes to The Center for Science and Culture, (formerly The Center for Renewal of Science and Culture), a separate division, devoted to promoting the teaching of "intelligent design" (creationism). Chapman calls the center "our No. 1 project." According to the groups 2005 IRS Form 990 annual return, the Discovery Institute had total revenue of $2.989 million in the 2005 calendar year.[8] The Discovery Institute's CSC director, Stephen C. Meyer, has reported that much of the money comes from wealthy conservative fundamentalists such as Howard Ahmandson Jr. (member of the board) and religious organizations such as the Maclellan Foundation. "We'll take money from anyone who wants to give it to us. Everyone has motives. Let's acknowledge that and get on with the interesting part," Meyer told the Washington Post.

500 alegrias  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:47:23am

OT

As John McEnroe the bad boy tennis player from New York used to say, with respect to Robert Gibb's laughable defense of Pres. Obama's assertions on our national security, "You cannot be serious."

Gibbs says "I don't believe Pres. Obama watched Cheney's speech". Heheheh.
Riiight, it was no coincidence Obama tried to pre-empt Cheney's speech, and out yak Cheney.

501 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:47:49am

re: #491 solomonpanting

Thank you for doing the research I was to lazy to do. Is that you mom?
/

502 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:48:09am

re: #488 Nevergiveup

I won't say one way or the other whether he is "white" his real name is Abdul Raheem

I know this is a wiki link, so please take that into consideration. Probably arab? I don't know.

503 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:48:40am

re: #495 Charles

You may not care, or want to hear it, but there ARE connections between the tea parties and Ron Paul. Lots of them. These are things known as facts.

I'm sorry to see that facts don't matter to you.

Facts matter. But I'll get my facts from people with less of an agenda.

504 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:48:47am

re: #495 Charles

You may not care, or want to hear it, but there ARE connections between the tea parties and Ron Paul. Lots of them. These are things known as facts.

I'm sorry to see that facts don't matter to you.

I believe the point loppyd and others have made repeatedly is they see some connections, just not strong connections.

505 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:48:49am

re: #473 Nevergiveup

I don't remember either if he was in Prison, but he was white.

Reid was 1/2 Carribeean, not that it should matter.

506 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:49:17am

re: #373 avanti

There is more then one definition:

Definition: Jihad is the Arabic for what can be variously translated as "struggle" or "effort," or "to strive," "to exert," "to fight," depending on the context. In the West, the word is generally understood to mean "holy war," and the terms are given, exclusively military connotations.

The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam. But the Quran also refers to jihad as an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort. It is said that Prophet Muhammad considered the armed-struggle version of holy war "the little jihad," but considered the spiritual, individual version of holy war--the war within oneself--as "the great jihad."

How many references in the Koran are there to "Armed Struggle" Jihad as opposed to the spiritual Self-purifying Jihad?

Now take all the references to the self-purifying Jihad which involve the removal from the earth of all outside influences in any manner possible.


What are you left with?

507 loppyd  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:49:34am

re: #498 loppyd

there not their

D'oh!

508 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:49:36am

re: #480 unrealizedviewpoint

I've seen him wrong before. :)

I was wrong once, but I think I may have been wrong.

And you'll see me wrong again :) I did not know the definition so I typed in define : jahad in Google, and now find there is some dispute about the meaning, and since I personally have no expertise in the issue, I give up.

509 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #470 Walter L. Newton Wow I didn't know you were THAT Newton! ;-)

510 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:49:39am

re: #499 Gus 802

Yes, Howard Ahmanson is (or was) one of the main sources of funding for the Discovery Institute. Interestingly, he recently announced that he was leaving the GOP and becoming a Democrat...

511 rightside  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:50:18am

re: #505 Joel

Nope. Not at all. These days, you cannot just look at an image and tell someone's ethnicity.

512 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:50:30am

re: #510 Charles

Yes, Howard Ahmanson is (or was) one of the main sources of funding for the Discovery Institute. Interestingly, he recently announced that he was leaving the GOP and becoming a Democrat...

Oh right. Ahmanson the eccentric. I had forgotten about that.

513 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:50:32am

re: #504 unrealizedviewpoint

I believe the point loppyd and others have made repeatedly is they see some connections, just not strong connections.

There are strong connections. Sorry, but all the denial in the world won't make these connections go away. Ron Paul followers are deeply involved in organizing tea parties.

514 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:50:55am

re: #508 avanti

And you'll see me wrong again :) I did not know the definition so I typed in define : jahad in Google, and now find there is some dispute about the meaning, and since I personally have no expertise in the issue, I give up.

jahad might have been the problem. :)

515 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:51:00am

re: #496 lawhawk

He might as well have asked Bill Gates what the Administration is doing about the Gitmo terrorists for all the clarity and knowledge that Gibbs exhibits.

Bill Gates...he's the SecDef, right?

/

516 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:51:01am

re: #471 alegrias

OT

Gibbs disagrees with Cheney's assertion that GITMO/Bush Administration's security measures have made us safer!


Uh oh, he's going with the Obama argument that the USA is creating terrorists...a rallying cry for those to join the battle!


Jake Tapper disagrees... uh oh, fight fight fight!

This may bear repeating

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Those libtards can repeat that BS meme all they want, they ain't convincing turn.

517 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:51:07am

There are so very many things wrong in this I dont know where to start:

President Barack Obama agreed Wednesday to share US nuclear power technology with the oil-rich United Arab Emirates, giving his consent to a deal signed in the final days of George W. Bush's administration.

The pact now goes to Congress, which will have 90 days to amend or reject it.

The agreement creates a legal framework for the US to transfer sensitive nuclear items to the United Arab Emirates, a federation of seven Middle Eastern states that wants nuclear power to satisfy growing demand for electricity.

Although flush with oil, the emirates imports 60 percent of the natural gas they use to generate electricity. The United Arab Emerates wants to break its dependence on outside sources for its energy needs and settled on nuclear power as the best option.

518 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:51:32am

re: #476 dhg4

Perhaps, I'm nitpicking but I wonder what if four white supremacists planned on attacking black churches, would the Times have carried the report in the New York Region section or the front page?

One thing to consider is that if you look at the FBI's hate crime statistics, there are about 1/3 the number of hate crimes directed towards Jewish targets as directed towards Black targets. (This ratio has been pretty consistent since they've been tracking hate crimes.) But the Jewish population is 1/7 the size of the Black population.

So shouldn't a hate crime directed towards Jews be more than a local story?

front page whether it happened in NY or in nosescratch tn.

519 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:51:40am

re: #514 unrealizedviewpoint

jahad might have been the problem. :)

See, only took one post for me to fuck up again.

520 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:51:55am

re: #512 Gus 802

I think I misspoke in saying it was "William". I believe Charles is correct in saying "Howard" although there are a few in the Ahmanson family tossing money around, and they all seem to be on the same page.

521 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:52:20am

re: #513 Charles

There are strong connections. Sorry, but all the denial in the world won't make these connections go away. Ron Paul followers are deeply involved in organizing tea parties.

When we get done defining Jihadi we'll need start on strong.
/

522 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:52:23am

re: #503 loppyd

And as the saying goes "Facts are stubborn things".

523 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:52:29am

re: #515 capitalist piglet

Bill Gates...he's the SecDef, right?

/

Actually, if "the enemy" had a Vista OS that could work as a weapon in reverse.

"Please reboot."

//

524 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:52:47am

re: #446 American Sabra

How would you know? And would you believe them if they did?

There was a walk in Tucson a few years back, Jews and Muslims. They walked from the temple to the mosque (or vice versa, I don't recall now). It was a solidarity of peace between people. It didn't bring peace to the world, but it was an outstretched hand, so to speak. My mom went. She said it was ok.

Anyway, it was condemned on this site because one of the Jewish women involved (I think she's a rabbi) is far left wing, so the whole thing was given zero consideration. And I was left with the feeling at the time that such things, Peace Walks were a waste of time.

Muslims peep their head out from under a rock and they get it smashed. I think it's a no win for them, no matter what they do.

Well, yes I would believe them, why wouldn't I, and why would you question what I would do?

I agree that Muslims peep their head out from a rock and get smashed; must lead to a lot of fear within their own community.

I know that here, given the anonymity of the internet - Muslims who wished to could come and decry violence and anti-semitism, and no one would know who they were. I don't see it happening. If you know that it is happening somewhere, I would dearly love a link.

525 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:52:48am

re: #495 Charles

You may not care, or want to hear it, but there ARE connections between the tea parties and Ron Paul. Lots of them. These are things known as facts.

I'm sorry to see that facts don't matter to you.

Charles, that's hardly fair. The connections are there, but KT has achieved a level of paranoia on the subject that has begun to worry - when we're not irritated - some of us. Further, his insistence begins to read as, "If you attend a Tea-Party, you are a Paul-bot", which is as fallacious as saying there are not Paulians involved.

526 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:52:52am

re: #472 Eowyn2

Mrs Turn is not reading this is she?
/

ha ha, turnwife doesn't have a serious problem with me looking E - now the acting part would get me, well like maybe dead.

527 calcajun  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:52:54am

re: #271 Dianna

It's always a good day to remind people that no one's exempt from bigotry and justifying those actions by saying the acts are the will of God.

If you want to make your skin crawl, go read what Pope Urban II told the "pilgrims" who went on the first Crusade. An account by Fulcher of Chartres Urban’s speech at the Council of Piacenza (where it was decided to launch the first Crusade) has the pontiff saying:

All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let them eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide

In other words, go and wage holy war and if you get killed in the process--you get into heaven. Sound familiar? Mind you, there are no contemporaneous accounts of Urban's speech from the Council-the above was long after the fact--but he is reported to have repeated himself on this central point at other times.

It's always been easier for us to slaughter one another because it was "God's will" rather than "you look/act/smell different than me".

528 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:53:01am

re: #497 Dianna

Calm down - it was aimed specifically at KT and Gus. Maybe at me - I'm not sure.

I didn't like that. Not because it may have been referring to me. I didn't like it because it was an all inclusive statement. Hell, I'm called a fool all the time.

529 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:53:13am

re: #517 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There are so very many things wrong in this I dont know where to start:

George W. Bush did exactly the same thing with Saudi Arabia. Obama is only continuing the policy.

I'm not happy about it either, but it's not correct to say this is unique to Barack Obama.

530 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:53:30am

re: #513 Charles

There are strong connections. Sorry, but all the denial in the world won't make these connections go away. Ron Paul followers are deeply involved in organizing tea parties.

Denial isn't the issue. It never has been.

531 badger1970  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:53:56am

Seemed to be a lot of [blank] in name only rhetoric. The Bible is confusing and contradictory enough as it is to use it like a club to bash someone's head in. I have never read the Koran so I don't know what is in it.

Can I call myself a Catholic though I sin and don't go to confession, nor participate and any of the sacraments, nor gone to Mass in years, nor reconciled with my ex-wife, nor gotten my marriage annulled, nor gotten my child baptized? I no longer do call myself Catholic. My choice and I would be a hypocrite if I do.

That being said, why do people call themselves Christians when their heart goes directly against the teachings of Jesus Christ? The actions of the person determines whether they can legitimately call themselves members of that group. It's not by birth but by choice.

532 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:54:34am

re: #463 avanti

I'll defer to your greater expertise on Islam. I just found most of the definitions referred to the definition of jihad as several kinds of struggles... I was unaware of the 19th century interpretations you cite, and stand corrected if you are correct.

Very good.

Now go look up another Islamic concept: Taqiyya

At the very least, it shows that Islam has as many interpretations of it's writings as Christianity did.

Not by a long shot. There are differing schools of Islam (Sunni, Shia, Ismaeli, & etc) but not nearly as many sects as in Christianity. Christian attitudes toward heretics varied over time from violent oppression to tolerance. The attitude towards heresy has always been much more severe in Islam. Specifically, the re-interpretation of the Koran has always been forbidden.

533 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:55:08am

It's entrapment! Buy are these people stupid.

[Link: www.democraticunderground.com...]

534 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #525 Dianna

Charles, that's hardly fair. The connections are there, but KT has achieved a level of paranoia on the subject that has begun to worry - when we're not irritated - some of us. Further, his insistence begins to read as, "If you attend a Tea-Party, you are a Paul-bot", which is as fallacious as saying there are not Paulians involved.

Killgore has achieved a level of EXPERTISE on this subject, big difference.

535 redstateredneck  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:55:53am

re: #533 Mad Al-Jaffee

It's entrapment! Buy are these people stupid.

[Link: www.democraticunderground.com...]


That's worse than stupid.

536 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:56:10am

re: #529 Charles

George W. Bush did exactly the same thing with Saudi Arabia. Obama is only continuing the policy.

I'm not happy about it either, but it's not correct to say this is unique to Barack Obama.

I'm a bit more focused on this:

"The United Arab Emerates wants to break its dependence on outside sources for its energy needs and settled on nuclear power as the best option."

Meanwhile, we've got people trying to ban coal power and back unproven technologies while the rest of the world is moving ahead with the only viable alternative.

537 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:56:15am

re: #444 Walter L. Newton

Sure, uncle? I don't even know what you are talking about. I post so much stuff here, I don't really keep track of all my points. But, if it helps, uncle.


How many posts would Walter post if Walter could post posts?
He would post what a poster would post if a poster could post posts.

538 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:56:21am

re: #530 Dianna

Denial isn't the issue. It never has been.

Yes, it is. Every time the subject comes up, whether it's raised by Killgore or by me, there are people who absolutely deny that it's happening.

Again, if you don't believe it -- go to Google News and set up a news alert for "ron paul tea party," and include all news sources -- MSM and blogs. There is a massive amount of activity going on around tea parties and Ron Paul followers, and people are just turning their heads away from it.

539 Colin Nelson  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:56:32am

#458,473 et al

See my #259 for story on shoe bomber

540 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:56:40am

re: #478 avanti

There are Hadiths which refer to jihad as an inner struggle, but these are lesser Hadiths and not widely accepted. In any event, the Koran is always considered a superior source of law than any Hadith, and the Koran is clear on jihad. It is indeed holy war.

541 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:56:57am

re: #531 badger1970

Seemed to be a lot of [blank] in name only rhetoric. The Bible is confusing and contradictory enough as it is to use it like a club to bash someone's head in. I have never read the Koran so I don't know what is in it.

Can I call myself a Catholic though I sin and don't go to confession, nor participate and any of the sacraments, nor gone to Mass in years, nor reconciled with my ex-wife, nor gotten my marriage annulled, nor gotten my child baptized? I no longer do call myself Catholic. My choice and I would be a hypocrite if I do.

That being said, why do people call themselves Christians when their heart goes directly against the teachings of Jesus Christ? The actions of the person determines whether they can legitimately call themselves members of that group. It's not by birth but by choice.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Read this and get back to us.

542 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:57:41am

re: #477 Killgore Trout

Ok, the lizards are turning hostile. I'll find something else to do.
Later, folks.

Very un-Kilgore like.

543 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:57:42am

re: #392 Altermite

Rush has so little influence that Steele had to take back calling him 'just an entertainer'.

I haven't been able to buy the whole 'Rush is incidental to the republican party' line since that incident.

Rush is influential with a good part of the base (Olbermann and Matthews are far more influential with the Democratic base) but he does not control the shots. That is just plain bovine excrement.

544 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:58:14am

re: #534 Walter L. Newton

Killgore has achieved a level of EXPERTISE on this subject, big difference.

I must disagree.

545 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:58:58am

re: #489 redstateredneck

That is one fugly individual.

He's got that "Rage Boy in a quiescent state" look in that photo.

546 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:59:42am

re: #532 Kenneth

Not by a long shot. There are differing schools of Islam (Sunni, Shia, Ismaeli, & etc) but not nearly as many sects as in Christianity. Christian attitudes toward heretics varied over time from violent oppression to tolerance. The attitude towards heresy has always been much more severe in Islam. Specifically, the re-interpretation of the Koran has always been forbidden.

I'm not going to get in a debate about which religion is "better", it's the misuse of religions that concern me, and all of them have suffered from that.

547 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 11:59:49am

re: #511 rightside

Nope. Not at all. These days, you cannot just look at an image and tell someone's ethnicity.

I'm guessing that most blue eyed blonds have nordic blood instead of Algerian blood.

548 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:00:04pm

re: #524 reine.de.tout

There is a Canadian leader of a moderate Muslim organization who has received death threats and has even been attacked by Muslim extremists for speaking out against Islamists.

549 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:00:58pm

re: #544 Dianna

I must disagree.

Of course you must. But I thought I would point it out anyway :)

550 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:00:59pm

re: #540 Kenneth

There are Hadiths which refer to jihad as an inner struggle, but these are lesser Hadiths and not widely accepted. In any event, the Koran is always considered a superior source of law than any Hadith, and the Koran is clear on jihad. It is indeed holy war.

Every one of these books written by man are open to various interpretations. I've heard many references by Muslim men referring to Jihad as an inner struggle.

551 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:01:19pm

No bail for three of the terror suspects. A fourth suspect is expected to be arraigned this afternoon.

552 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:01:19pm

re: #538 Charles

That wasn't what I was addressing. I already know what you're talking about, and I am tracking it with concern. Both watching the Paulians and watching those opposing them; it's quite an interesting wrestling match. Mostly because the Paulians are much better organized (which should scare the sane into doing a better job, themselves).

My issue was - very specifically - with the level of near-paranoid, blanket "It's the Paulians! Run for your lives!" that some among us are embracing. That's a quick road to paralysis.

553 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:01:30pm

re: #542 Ben Hur

Very un-Kilgore like.

I hope he isn't sick.

554 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:01:38pm

re: #546 avanti

I don't think that's what Kenneth is trying to get across to you at all.

555 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:02:38pm

re: #536 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"The United Arab Emerates wants to break its dependence on outside sources for its energy needs and settled on nuclear power as the best option."

Two things wrong with that justification:

1. UAE has plenty of oil. They don't import it from outside.

2. UAE would have to import nuclear technology and fuel for their reactors.

556 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:02:59pm

re: #548 Kenneth

There is a Canadian leader of a moderate Muslim organization who has received death threats and has even been attacked by Muslim extremists for speaking out against Islamists.

Yes, I think I saw him on a TV special.

My point is this - there is never-ending screeching and a bajillion links provided by a certain someone here on the evils of Christianity.

Now, I do not deny that those evils exist.

But I see many Christians here flat-out denouncing those evils.

I do NOT see an equivalent number of Muslims denouncing Islamic violence.

557 SixDegrees  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:03:05pm

re: #517 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There are so very many things wrong in this I dont know where to start:

Some, certainly. But if Middle Eastern countries are going to have nuclear power - and it is inevitable that they will - I would very much rather see them obtain it by using the designs and materials we provide. It makes it much easier to ensure that their reactors are very difficult to convert to production of weapons-grade high-order isotopes, like plutonium; it makes it much easier to detect any tampering or diversion; and it makes the quantity of fuel delivered and used transparent, while at the same time delaying the development of their own domestic refinement capabilities.


Any such deals need to be carefully constructed to ensure inspections of all sorts and restrictions on the development of a domestic, end-to-end production capability. They can have their upside if they are rigorously enforced, and the downside is relatively small - the loss of relatively small amounts of reactor-grade uranium, and some dough.

558 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:03:31pm

I know the FBI knew what they were doing when they stopped the 4 plotters before they got to the airbase but imagine seeing these thugs try to launch the fake stinger missile and remotely detonate car bombs with playdough C4.

Fake explosives and stinger missile $5000
FBI sting operation $ 50,000
Youtube video of terrosists wetting pants while trying to fire fake missile... priceless.

559 Kragar  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:03:50pm

re: #555 Kenneth

3. Why aren't we pursuing a similar option to meet our energy needs and promote energy independence?

560 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #550 unrealizedviewpoint

To Muslims, the Koran was not written by man but by Allah and is not open to interpretation. Some modern Muslims may engage in that kind of re-interpretation, but they are very few and run the risk of charges of heresy.

561 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:04:46pm

re: #552 Dianna


My issue was - very specifically - with the level of near-paranoid, blanket "It's the Paulians! Run for your lives!" that some among us are embracing. That's a quick road to paralysis.

You got that right. And that's exactly where the conservatives/Republicans/moderates, etc. are stuck right now. I saw how in California voters rose up and make a difference - largely based on rallys of anti-tax protest. Some may have involved "Paulians," some most definitely did not. The point is that sitting at home with the shades drawn and hoping all the bad stuff goes away is not a good strategy either.

562 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:04:54pm

re: #558 DaddyG

I know the FBI knew what they were doing when they stopped the 4 plotters before they got to the airbase but imagine seeing these thugs try to launch the fake stinger missile and remotely detonate car bombs with playdough C4.

Fake explosives and stinger missile $5000
FBI sting operation $ 50,000
Youtube video of terrosists wetting pants while trying to fire fake missile... priceless.

Keystone Jihadis.

563 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:05:04pm

re: #425 Kenneth

[Link: www.livingislam.org...]

You will also see several hadith that speak to this, the bukhari is weak and not always accepted especially not by wahhabbists. That's just the Sunni versions and interpretations, there are also Shia, Sufi, and others.

Now you can contest this with the protestations of those who want to paint all islam as bad because they are pimping for foreign lobbies with political aims, but ... it's just the "no true scotsman" argument in reverse. This comes from a practicing Muslim site.

564 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:05:14pm

re: #554 Sharmuta

I don't think that's what Kenneth is trying to get across to you at all.

I think I got that he was trying to say that Islam is basically more violent in it's teachings then Christianity. I only know that both have some bad history of oppression in the name of faith and don't know enough to grade them.

565 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:05:53pm

I better get some more work done.
see you all in a few

566 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:06:22pm

re: #552 Dianna

Mostly because the Paulians are much better organized

Isn't their low number part of the reason why they're better organized?

567 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:06:27pm

Press release is up at the NY office of the FBI.

Department of Justice Press Release

For Immediate Release
May 20, 2009 United States Attorney's Office
Southern District of New York

Four Arrested for Plot to Bomb Synagogue and Jewish Community Center and to Shoot Military Planes with Stinger Missiles...

568 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:06:32pm

re: #546 avanti

I'm not going to get in a debate about which religion is "better", it's the misuse of religions that concern me, and all of them have suffered from that.

Focus on the demonstrable behavior of the groups... that will tell you much about how they interpret their own word. The things men do are the things they believe.

In that context contemporary Islam has a lot more work to do on their people skills than the Amish or Buddhists.

569 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:06:47pm

re: #556 reine.de.tout

Most are keeping their heads down. There exists a very strong culture of not engaging in self-criticism, or criticism of other Muslims. Especially not in public with non-Muslims.

570 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:06:59pm

re: #560 Kenneth

To Muslims, the Koran was not written by man but by Allah and is not open to interpretation. Some modern Muslims may engage in that kind of re-interpretation, but they are very few and run the risk of charges of heresy.

And we all know the punishment for heresy in Islam.

571 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:07:05pm

re: #561 Russkilitlover

You got that right. And that's exactly where the conservatives/Republicans/moderates, etc. are stuck right now. I saw how in California voters rose up and make a difference - largely based on rallys of anti-tax protest. Some may have involved "Paulians," some most definitely did not. The point is that sitting at home with the shades drawn and hoping all the bad stuff goes away is not a good strategy either.

Well, Killgore is certainly not waiting fore the bad stuff to go away, since he evidently is upsetting people with his excellent research and postings.

I certainly don't agree with KT on all subjects (see recent dust up a few days ago) but on this, he's spot on.

Deal with it.

572 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:07:14pm

re: #564 avanti

I think I got that he was trying to say that Islam is basically more violent in it's teachings then Christianity. I only know that both have some bad history of oppression in the name of faith and don't know enough to grade them.

And it seemed to me as though Kenneth was trying to educate you about an area you openly admit you don't know much about. For example- did you know the koran allows men to beat their wives?

573 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:07:16pm

re: #556 reine.de.tout

Yes, I think I saw him on a TV special.

My point is this - there is never-ending screeching and a bajillion links provided by a certain someone here on the evils of Christianity.

Now, I do not deny that those evils exist.

But I see many Christians here flat-out denouncing those evils.

I do NOT see an equivalent number of Muslims denouncing Islamic violence.

Didn't you read that disclaimer in the CAIR press release?
/

574 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:07:24pm

re: #460 Nevergiveup

Hey American Sabra you dinged me down up above, but I bet ( in fact I know) that left wing Jews have the lowest synagogue affiliation of all other Jews?

Yea I did. It's one of my pet peeves. Secular people from both sides of the fence, right and left, do not attend services. But I hear it all the time from Republicans, so holier than thou, how American Jews hate Israel, don't attend shul, blah blah blah and it's a big lie. Israel's largest support comes from its American brothers and sisters of all flavors of Judaism, secular to religious. Orthodoxy in the states is practiced least amongst Jews so conservative and reform are the more prevalent. So where's all the support coming from then?

575 solomonpanting  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:07:48pm
They were "disappointed...that the best target (the World Trade Center) was hit already," he said, adding that the men were "eager to bring death to Jews." He also said Cromitie wanted to see what he did on TV and be able to say, "I'm the one who did that."

Ah! Inner jihad.

576 SixDegrees  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:08:08pm

re: #536 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm a bit more focused on this:

"The United Arab Emerates wants to break its dependence on outside sources for its energy needs and settled on nuclear power as the best option."

Meanwhile, we've got people trying to ban coal power and back unproven technologies while the rest of the world is moving ahead with the only viable alternative.

That bit is, indeed, hypocritical and disturbing. We ought to be building our own nuclear plants from sea to shining sea as we speak, as many as quickly as we possibly can. I'd like to see 1000 new nuclear plants constructed over the next 25 years, for starters. We could likely eliminate the need for foreign oil altogether within 5 years, certainly within 10; and with the eventual elimination of oil-powered transport, what we had left domestically would last a long, long time. This level of building would also accommodate a large rate of future growth, even after there are millions of electric cars on the road.

577 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:08:26pm

re: #566 MandyManners

Isn't their low number part of the reason why they're better organized?

I speculate (and emphasize that it is speculation) that they're better organized because they require a degree of orthodoxy more amorphous groups don't.

578 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:08:42pm

re: #566 MandyManners

Isn't their low number part of the reason why they're better organized?

I'd like to know how they have so much time to be organized.
Time is money and people simply cannot afford to just sit on their asses and work politics. SOOO. Where's the Paulian money coming from?

579 NY Nana  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:08:43pm

re: #476 dhg4

I just checked online, as we canceled our subscription at least 10 years ago, and it is actually on the online front page...4 down, but there. Re the print edition? Not a clue!

Since we do not have a cat, and if we did, I wouldn't use Al-NYT for kitty litter, I ain't going to ask NY Grampa to pick one up on the way home, as he might go into shock! ;)

580 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:08:47pm

re: #571 Walter L. Newton

Well, Killgore is certainly not waiting fore the bad stuff to go away, since he evidently is upsetting people with his excellent research and postings.

I certainly don't agree with KT on all subjects (see recent dust up a few days ago) but on this, he's spot on.

Deal with it.

If you get most of your facts from Stormfront, you'll never want for moonshine.

581 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:08:55pm

re: #574 American Sabra

Most American Jews, especially the youth, have a growing connection with Judaism, and less so with Israel.

582 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:09:13pm

re: #556 reine.de.tout

Yes, I think I saw him on a TV special.

My point is this - there is never-ending screeching and a bajillion links provided by a certain someone here on the evils of Christianity.

Now, I do not deny that those evils exist.

But I see many Christians here flat-out denouncing those evils.

I do NOT see an equivalent number of Muslims denouncing Islamic violence.

Islam ♥ violence.

583 bloodnok  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:09:27pm

re: #571 Walter L. Newton

Well, Killgore is certainly not waiting fore the bad stuff to go away, since he evidently is upsetting people with his excellent research and postings.

I certainly don't agree with KT on all subjects (see recent dust up a few days ago) but on this, he's spot on.

Deal with it.

Hear hear.

584 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:09:32pm

For the few who make claim that Christianity is as violent as Islam please spend a modicum of time at MEMRI.

585 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:09:37pm

re: #322 Ben Hur

It was meant to be funny. And it's true.

10 Porn Stars Who Gave Their Bods to God

Not Entirely Safe for Work.

LOL Betty Page found God? When was that? (I just glanced. Maybe it was just an eye catcher...well it was definitely an eye catcher!)

586 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:10:55pm

re: #570 Eowyn2

And we all know the punishment for heresy in Islam.

Well, heretics in the West used to be burned at the stake and people would come from miles around to watch. Some people probably still would.

Humans worry me.

587 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #569 Kenneth

Most are keeping their heads down. There exists a very strong culture of not engaging in self-criticism, or criticism of other Muslims. Especially not in public with non-Muslims.

Well, OK.
I don't happen to believe that "keeping one's head down" and failing to critically examine and self-criticize is a particularly grand way to show the world that 1) you believe a problem exists, and 2) you think something should be done about it.

Whereas, in spite of the screeching by a certain person here (Walter) on the eeevils of Christianity, I DO INDEED see many Christians here (and elsewhere) NOT keeping their heads down but engaging in productive and effective self-evaluation and self-criticism of Christian beliefs that lead to violence and anti-semitism.

American Sabra questioned whether I would believe any Muslims who professed to be doing this. Yes I would. I asked to be shown where this might be happening on a larger scale than the occasional one or two.

588 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:22pm
589 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:30pm

re: #370 redstateredneck

That's how it works on t.v. and in the movies, so I reckon so!

LOL Either way, they all hate the Jews! What's up with THAT?

590 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:30pm

re: #575 solomonpanting

Ah! Inner jihad.

They were "disappointed...that the best target (the World Trade Center) was hit already," he said, adding that the men were "eager to bring death to Jews."

Uch. That utter BS, again.

If 9/11 was about Israel/Jews they would've hit 47th street both time.

9/11 was an attack on the United States of America and their military occupation of bases in Saudi Arabia and other bases in Dar al Islam.

Among other things that have zero to do with Jews and Israel.

591 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:41pm

re: #580 Russkilitlover

If you get most of your facts from Stormfront, you'll never want for moonshine.

Nothing wrong with going to the source to know what people are saying. Islam has been promising things for years, we don't listen, Hitler put it all down in a book, we didn't listen, and now groups like VB and Stormfront have point to make and I see nothing wrong with the source to understand where they are coming from.

592 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:42pm

re: #552 Dianna

My issue was - very specifically - with the level of near-paranoid, blanket "It's the Paulians! Run for your lives!" that some among us are embracing. That's a quick road to paralysis.

I have not seen anything like that being expressed by Killgore. What I see much more commonly is that he raises the issue or posts a link, and people start denying there's a problem and insulting him.

I won't have anything to do with tea parties; I'm not going to promote them or endorse them, because my own research into who's behind them has turned up a lot of bad people. Not interested in joining them.

593 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:45pm

re: #574 American Sabra

Yea I did. It's one of my pet peeves. Secular people from both sides of the fence, right and left, do not attend services. But I hear it all the time from Republicans, so holier than thou, how American Jews hate Israel, don't attend shul, blah blah blah and it's a big lie. Israel's largest support comes from its American brothers and sisters of all flavors of Judaism, secular to religious. Orthodoxy in the states is practiced least amongst Jews so conservative and reform are the more prevalent. So where's all the support coming from then?

Well your equating support for Israel and synagogue attendance, which probably is accurate but not the point I was making. And it is a fact that "Liberal" Jews are less affiliated than all others. No way around that. So I am not sure what your point is. Obviously "Jews" tend to "support" Israel. But Liberal Jews have a funny way of showing it at times.

594 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:11:50pm

re: #572 Sharmuta

And it seemed to me as though Kenneth was trying to educate you about an area you openly admit you don't know much about. For example- did you know the koran allows men to beat their wives?

I don't know enough about the Bible, but I think I could cite examples of the Bible suggesting the same or worse.

595 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:12:05pm

re: #571 Walter L. Newton

Well, Killgore is certainly not waiting fore the bad stuff to go away, since he evidently is upsetting people with his excellent research and postings.

I certainly don't agree with KT on all subjects (see recent dust up a few days ago) but on this, he's spot on.

Deal with it.

I have to disagree, again. It's not his research. It's that he's reached a point where I swear he's jumping at shadows.

596 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:12:06pm

Their plot reminds me of the show Sleeper Cell. I remember a plot involving stinger missiles, I think in the second season.

597 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:12:46pm

Here's a telling shot (from Drudge) of TOTUS Øbama looking through the teleprompter.

598 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:13:01pm

re: #559 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

3. Why aren't we pursuing a similar option to meet our energy needs and promote energy independence?

Someone needs to ask that question of Harry Reid and the NIMBY Democrats.

599 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:13:07pm

re: #586 Dianna

Well, heretics in the West used to be burned at the stake and people would come from miles around to watch. Some people probably still would.

Humans worry me.

In fairness the electric bulb hadn't been invented yet and candles were expensive top read by. //

600 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:13:16pm

re: #597 unrealizedviewpoint

Here's a telling shot (from Drudge) of TOTUS Øbama looking through the teleprompter.

sorry

601 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:14:07pm

re: #594 avanti

I don't know enough about the Bible, but I think I could cite examples of the Bible suggesting the same or worse.

Bullshit.

602 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:14:10pm

re: #585 American Sabra

LOL Betty Page found God? When was that? (I just glanced. Maybe it was just an eye catcher...well it was definitely an eye catcher!)

She came from a fairly religious background, and after encountering serious problems in her life, she turned back to God and left the modeling behind.

603 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:14:54pm
604 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:15:14pm

re: #595 Dianna

I have to disagree, again. It's not his research. It's that he's reached a point where I swear he's jumping at shadows.

Fine, you made you point, I made mine, we don't agree.

605 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:15:42pm

re: #546 avanti

I'm not going to get in a debate about which religion is "better", it's the misuse of religions that concern me, and all of them have suffered from that.

Fine. But consider this: nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus command his followers to go out and kill unbelievers, nor does he exhort them to convert people by the sword. To be sure, in later centuries many Christians did that, but they had no scripture to support their actions. On the contrary, Jesus spoke often of pacifism and commanded the people to love thy neighbor.

Now contrast that with the Koran. Muhammad made repeated calls for his followers to wage war on the unbelievers. This call was answered by millions of Muslims down through the ages. When Islamic extremists today call for Jihad against the infidels, they have plenty of scripture to support their views. Those few Muslims who argue against violent jihad have a few disputed hadiths to support their position.

606 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:16:08pm

re: #595 Dianna

I have to disagree, again. It's not his research. It's that he's reached a point where I swear he's jumping at shadows.

I agree. Shadows.

607 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:16:57pm

re: #592 Charles

Clearly, you endorse what seems right to you, and I'm certainly not going to tell you what to do, or how.

I disagree with how you see what KT's doing. I honestly am concerned about 1) the way KT has started to link every single thing with RP; 2) his insistence that he is being persecuted; and 3) a general level of suspicion.

608 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:16:58pm

re: #552 Dianna

That wasn't what I was addressing. I already know what you're talking about, and I am tracking it with concern. Both watching the Paulians and watching those opposing them; it's quite an interesting wrestling match. Mostly because the Paulians are much better organized (which should scare the sane into doing a better job, themselves).

My issue was - very specifically - with the level of near-paranoid, blanket "It's the Paulians! Run for your lives!" that some among us are embracing. That's a quick road to paralysis.

Like you, I don't doubt that the Paulians are (to what degree, I can't say) attempting to co-opt this grassroots movement by trying to pick up the organization ball and run with it, but when there are so few examples of this having a significant impact on the events (so far...but two guys with signs about the Fair Tax in the last row of a crowd of several hundred isn't what I'd call dominant), I just don't feel like my hair is on fire. Yet. And I may never. It just depends on what happens.

609 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:17:03pm

re: #595 Dianna

I have to disagree, again. It's not his research. It's that he's reached a point where I swear he's jumping at shadows.

I demand a poll be taken.
Can I do that?
/

610 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:17:06pm

re: #603 Iron Fist

What you've never seen is a Christian rally supporting Eric Rudolf as a fucking Hero.

FYI:

Extremist Chatter Praises Eric Rudolph as 'Hero.'

611 experiencedtraveller  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:17:13pm

ITS THE TAXES!

612 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:17:25pm

re: #564 avanti

I think I got that he was trying to say that Islam is basically more violent in it's teachings then Christianity. I only know that both have some bad history of oppression in the name of faith and don't know enough to grade them.

Then I recommend you read two books:

1. The Bible
2. The Koran

That's all you will need to know to understand the two religions.

613 Eowyn2  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:18:14pm

re: #585 American Sabra

LOL Betty Page found God? When was that? (I just glanced. Maybe it was just an eye catcher...well it was definitely an eye catcher!)

I read Linda Lovelace' "Out of Bondage." The woman pulled no punches. It is something that I would recommend to young women who think its cute or fun to watch porn with their squeezes. I would even recommend it to men who think porn stars are all happy go lucky nymphos.

614 Altermite  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:18:21pm

re: #594 avanti

I don't know enough about the Bible, but I think I could cite examples of the Bible suggesting the same or worse.

You mean the bit about requiring women to marry their rapist? Or the not-unheard of theme of rebellious wives being to blame for the beatings they receive at the hands of abusive husbands?

615 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:18:24pm

re: #584 unrealizedviewpoint

For the few who make claim that Christianity is as violent as Islam please spend a modicum of time at MEMRI.

Ok but where can I get video of the Crusades?
/

616 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:18:31pm

re: #601 MandyManners

Bullshit.

How about stoning's, that seems harsh and there are dozens more .

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21"

For breaking the Sabbath

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

617 lawhawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:18:36pm

Front pages of NY area papers:

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...] (most front page treatment)

[Link: www.nypost.com...] (full page treatment)

[Link: www.nytimes.com...] (front page above the fold in the middle, but not the most prominent spot on the page)

[Link: www.newsday.com...] (Newsday has squib at top of cover page)

618 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:18:43pm

re: #488 Nevergiveup

handsome chap ha?
///

A face only a mother could love. Seriously.

619 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:19:09pm

re: #594 avanti

I don't know enough about the Bible, but I think I could cite examples of the Bible suggesting the same or worse.

So you admit your ignorance, but you insist on showing it just the same?

620 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:19:43pm

re: #605 Kenneth

Fine. But consider this: nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus command his followers to go out and kill unbelievers, nor does he exhort them to convert people by the sword. To be sure, in later centuries many Christians did that, but they had no scripture to support their actions. On the contrary, Jesus spoke often of pacifism and commanded the people to love thy neighbor.

Now contrast that with the Koran. Muhammad made repeated calls for his followers to wage war on the unbelievers. This call was answered by millions of Muslims down through the ages. When Islamic extremists today call for Jihad against the infidels, they have plenty of scripture to support their views. Those few Muslims who argue against violent jihad have a few disputed hadiths to support their position.

So, the Koran tells them to do it, Christians didn't even need a book to tell them to do it. Horrors have been done in the name of all religions, Islam just has the current spotlight and demographics to be king of the hill right now.

Same motivations, down through the centuries and there are Christians even now who would love to see those numbers flip so they had the upper hand.

Same coin, different side.

621 sattv4u2  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:19:58pm

re: #592 Charles
I have not seen anything like that being expressed by Killgore. What I see much more commonly is that he raises the issue or posts a link,

While all true, what I think some object too (me included) is that he tends to paint the Tea Party demonstrations with a very broad Paulian/ White Supremist brush. He never qulaifies that "A" tea party was organized by someone of that ilk. His posts tend to imply that ALL Tea parties are Paulian/ WS recruit fests.

I attended the one on Atlanta (25,000 people) and though I did se a few Ron Paul signs, they were ignored and walked past as if they were fire hydrants, just another thing on the street of no consequence

622 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:20:09pm

re: #594 avanti

I don't know enough about the Bible, but I think I could cite examples of the Bible suggesting the same or worse.


If engaging in a critique of the laws in the Bible provide them in their contemporary context please. Also- don't forget to include the new testament if your critique is of Christianity.

I've been down this path with a few too many cherry pickers.

The bottom line is the modern behavior of a huge number of Muslims is rather disturbing and their main cannon does little to discourage that behavior. IOW don't equivocate Christians who do not follow their law to Muslims who follow theirs and try to pass this off as "they do it too".

623 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:20:21pm

re: #605 Kenneth

Fine. But consider this: nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus command his followers to go out and kill unbelievers, nor does he exhort them to convert people by the sword. To be sure, in later centuries many Christians did that, but they had no scripture to support their actions. On the contrary, Jesus spoke often of pacifism and commanded the people to love thy neighbor.

Now contrast that with the Koran. Muhammad made repeated calls for his followers to wage war on the unbelievers. This call was answered by millions of Muslims down through the ages. When Islamic extremists today call for Jihad against the infidels, they have plenty of scripture to support their views. Those few Muslims who argue against violent jihad have a few disputed hadiths to support their position.

Kenneth I have no dog in this fight, I'm a agnostic and not fond of any religions influence on mans violent nature.

624 Gus  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:20:48pm

re: #617 lawhawk

Front pages of NY area papers:

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...] (most front page treatment)

[Link: www.nypost.com...] (full page treatment)

[Link: www.nytimes.com...] (front page above the fold in the middle, but not the most prominent spot on the page)

[Link: www.newsday.com...] (Newsday has squib at top of cover page)

The photo above the NY Times front page certain ally catches the eye. =)

625 MandyManners  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:21:04pm

re: #616 avanti

We were talking about Christianity and the beating of women. No where in the words of the New Testament will you find ANYTHING telling husbands to beat their wives.

626 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:21:32pm

re: #612 Kenneth

Kenneth, you seem to be ignoring me.

627 Altermite  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:21:39pm

re: #622 DaddyG

If engaging in a critique of the laws in the Bible provide them in their contemporary context please. Also- don't forget to include the new testament if your critique is of Christianity.

I've been down this path with a few too many cherry pickers.

The bottom line is the modern behavior of a huge number of Muslims is rather disturbing and their main cannon does little to discourage that behavior. IOW don't equivocate Christians who do not follow their law to Muslims who follow theirs and try to pass this off as "they do it too".

Please explain the stoning passage 'in context'. I would very much like to see that.

628 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:21:40pm

re: #623 avanti

Kenneth I have no dogma in this fight, I'm a agnostic and not fond of any religions influence on mans violent nature.


FTFY

629 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:21:42pm

re: #619 Kenneth

So you admit your ignorance, but you insist on showing it just the same?

I just replied because of the bullshit comment. The Bible is full of nasty punishments for even minor infractions.

630 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:21:53pm

re: #615 turn

Ok but where can I get video of the Crusades?
/


With or without dinosaurs?

631 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:22:45pm

re: #595 Dianna

I have to disagree, again. It's not his research. It's that he's reached a point where I swear he's jumping at shadows.

Leapin' and hoppin'?

632 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:22:55pm

A quick anecdote on the subject of:
"Hey, my religion ain't like that"

I accepted an invitation form a particular hottie I was dating in college. Big time preacher brought in for a good old fashion revival meet! The subject you ask?

As the Bible tells us: "He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24) and "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

Had the crowd in a froth he did. Much hallelujah and amen brothering. Lots of kids with oh shit looks on their faces too! This included said hottie's little brother who went home to a dandly whipping that night - on general principle.

Whip up on your kids! Can I get an amen?

633 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:23:59pm

re: #616 avanti You already blew it before I could post my last request.

What does the New Testament say about that?

What were the contemporary justice systems of other nomadic tribes at the time?

What are contemporary (modern) Christians practicing today?

634 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:24:03pm

re: #625 MandyManners

We were talking about Christianity and the beating of women. No where in the words of the New Testament will you find ANYTHING telling husbands to beat their wives.

Every time I hear some promise of hellfire and damnation it's from the Old Testament.
If my Catholic is good, Jesus revised all that.

635 joncelli  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:24:21pm

The market is not a happy camper today: 8246.74, down -175.30.

636 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:24:42pm

Kenneth: Let me put it another way: how does it help the war on terror to further the Zawahiri/Bin Laden Wabbist neo-takfirist interpretations when there are hundreds of millions of practicing muslims who seem to think there is a spiritual jihad?

637 Ben Hur  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:24:53pm

Well, I've just about hadith enough.

BBIAB.

638 dhg4  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:25:03pm

re: #579 NY Nana

I just checked online, as we canceled our subscription at least 10 years ago, and it is actually on the online front page...4 down, but there. Re the print edition? Not a clue!

Since we do not have a cat, and if we did, I wouldn't use Al-NYT for kitty litter, I ain't going to ask NY Grampa to pick one up on the way home, as he might go into shock! ;)

Well we cancelled in 2004.

But the URL had /nyregion/ in it. There may have been a link from the front page, but I doubt that it was on the front page of the print edition.

It looks like I was wrong, it was front page. My bad. (I'll have to fix my blog entry later.)

639 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:25:12pm

re: #610 Charles

FYI:

Extremist Chatter Praises Eric Rudolph as 'Hero.'

I read once where Rudolph said he didn't want anyone praying for him, and that he'd rather read Nietzsche than the bible. He's just plain evil. He has been linked to the Christian Identity movement as well.

/spit!

640 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:25:38pm

re: #637 Ben Hur

Well, I've just about hadith enough.

BBIAB.

Me too, I'm sura in need of a break.

641 Altermite  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:25:39pm

re: #613 Eowyn2

I read Linda Lovelace' "Out of Bondage." The woman pulled no punches. It is something that I would recommend to young women who think its cute or fun to watch porn with their squeezes. I would even recommend it to men who think porn stars are all happy go lucky nymphos.

Its a very strange and creepy industry. Last year I went to a semniar/speech thing by several now retired porn stars. Some of them had terrible experieinces, although very few on a level with lovelace, and a few others enjoyed themselves much more. The problem is that the industry is far too prone to examples of the first, and it would be near impossible to find out which products are examples of one vs another.

642 doppelganglander  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:25:42pm

re: #635 joncelli

The market is not a happy camper today: 8246.74, down -175.30.

They must be disappointed that Adam didn't win American Idol.

643 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:25:43pm

re: #634 unrealizedviewpoint

Every time I hear some promise of hellfire and damnation it's from the Old Testament. If my Catholic is good, Jesus revised all that.

There are over 162 references in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) which warn of Hell.

Over 70 of these references are attributed to Jesus.

According to the gospels, Jesus spoke more on Hell than on any other subject. However, many skeptics and religious liberals suggest that the frequency with which Hell appears in individual gospels may reflect the beliefs of their authors or of the authors' faith group more than that of Jesus.

[Link: www.religioustolerance.org...]

You need to brush up on your studies. Geeessshhh.

644 NY Nana  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:26:03pm

For any Lizards in the metropolitan NYC area, the annual Salute to Israel Parade is being held on Sunday, the 31st of May.

645 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:26:15pm

re: #630 DaddyG

With or without dinosaurs?

Ding!

646 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:26:39pm
647 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:26:51pm

re: #634 unrealizedviewpoint

Every time I hear some promise of hellfire and damnation it's from the Old Testament.
If my Catholic is good, Jesus revised all that.

Um. No. Lots of "separating the sheep from the goats" and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Oh, and let's not forget the bits about "sell your cloak and buy a sword" (which made me wonder about the relative prices of cloth and iron, and led to a really wonderful series of books) and "I come not to bring peace, but a sword", and a few others.

And never forget that fig tree!

648 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:27:38pm

re: #627 Altermite

Please explain the stoning passage 'in context'. I would very much like to see that.

Two contexts: 1) the contemporary practices of society in 1-2000 BC amid nomadic tribes. Stoning is nasty and brutish but you will find it to be more common 4000 years ago I dare say. Don't fall prey to the fallacy of presentism when reading ancient scriptures. 2) the context of the New Testament that teaches forgiveness and "cast no stone".

When Islam adds a new testament that makes it a central doctrine to cast no stone, rocket, AK-47 round, etc. and makes that a requirement of salvation then I will be interested in equivocations between them and Christianity.

(If that wasn't clear enough please look up the definitions of context vs. justification and contemporary vs. modern)

649 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:28:04pm

re: #616 avanti

Yes, you can find violence here & there, but you cannot find any calls for violence in the books of the Gospels which are the record of Jesus' words and actions on earth. The Gospels are the core of Christianity. The comparable record for Muslims is the Koran, which is accepted by Muslims as the direct word of god. In the Koran, there are many calls for violence against unbelievers.

650 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:28:05pm

re: #629 avanti

Relativism. You don't see that practiced today by Jews or Christians. The only places you might find it are deep in tribal areas usually dominated by arab culture.

I don't think there is an equivalent to purdah.

651 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:28:18pm

re: #642 doppelganglander

They must be disappointed that Adam didn't win American Idol.

Rumor was Adam couldn't win cause he's gay and that fly over country would vote for the Christian.

652 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:28:51pm

re: #625 MandyManners

We were talking about Christianity and the beating of women. No where in the words of the New Testament will you find ANYTHING telling husbands to beat their wives.

OK, then we can ignore the Old Testament, that will clear up the whole Genesis creation issues and a lot more. When I replied, I thought the Old Testament was part of the Bible since many still quote the parts they like.
I'm signing off the whole religion discussion. it'll just get me in trouble since it confuses me.

653 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:29:36pm

re: #647 Dianna

Um. No. Lots of "separating the sheep from the goats" and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Oh, and let's not forget the bits about "sell your cloak and buy a sword" (which made me wonder about the relative prices of cloth and iron, and led to a really wonderful series of books) and "I come not to bring peace, but a sword", and a few others.

And never forget that fig tree!

This is why it is nearly impossible to discuss theology with a lot of people, because a lot of what they think they know, or have been told, has nothing to do with reality. I wish people would study the hebrew and greek scriptures instead of just parroting something they heard in the pew on Sunday.

654 Altermite  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:29:44pm

re: #648 DaddyG

Two contexts: 1) the contemporary practices of society in 1-2000 BC amid nomadic tribes. Stoning is nasty and brutish but you will find it to be more common 4000 years ago I dare say. Don't fall prey to the fallacy of presentism when reading ancient scriptures. 2) the context of the New Testament that teaches forgiveness and "cast no stone".

When Islam adds a new testament that makes it a central doctrine to cast no stone, rocket, AK-47 round, etc. and makes that a requirement of salvation then I will be interested in equivocations between them and Christianity.

(If that wasn't clear enough please look up the definitions of context vs. justification and contemporary vs. modern)

I'm sorry, but I find that a much better justification for a legal document than a sacred 'enlightened' text.

655 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:29:51pm

re: #649 Kenneth

"Sell your cloak and buy a sword"?

656 astronmr20  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:29:59pm

re: #38 Charles

You'll have to excuse me if I disagree. After some of the vicious hate mail I've gotten from people who call themselves "Christians," it's pretty obvious that Islam has no monopoly on hatred.

Have you actually read the Koran compared it to Christian text?

Have you seen how many people are 'sploded in a typical month in the name of Islam compared to Christianity?

After reading this anti-jihad blog for several years, I almost can't believe my eyes.

657 FredWM  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:30:22pm

ABC radio today in New York explained that the defendants looked on incredulously as the prosecution described them as violent jihadist. That’s after they were caught red-handed planting 37 pound bombs. So what would it take to convince them that they were violent jihadist?

658 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:30:23pm

re: #632 The Shadow Do That preacher was an idiot and evil. The definition of rod is mistranslated to mean stick. Rod should be more accurately translated as the law or the book of law. IOW don't teach your child the rules and you are spoiling them.

I have little or no patience for anyone who cherry picks scriptures regardless if their intent is to support their brand of Christianity or degrade it. Either is willful ignorance.

659 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:31:09pm

re: #649 Kenneth

Yes, you can find violence here & there, but you cannot find any calls for violence in the books of the Gospels which are the record of Jesus' words and actions on earth. The Gospels are the core of Christianity. The comparable record for Muslims is the Koran, which is accepted by Muslims as the direct word of god. In the Koran, there are many calls for violence against unbelievers.

I have a copy of the Bible with Jesus' words in red. I'll look for the quotes calling for violence.

660 J.D.  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:31:12pm

re: #656 astronmr20

There is hatred and then there's violence.
Maybe that's a distinction that needs to be made?

661 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:31:23pm
662 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:31:27pm

re: #656 astronmr20

You've missed some of the hate mail that's been shared, perhaps. People telling Charles to go commit suicide, and worse.

663 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:05pm

re: #613 Eowyn2

I read Linda Lovelace' "Out of Bondage." The woman pulled no punches. It is something that I would recommend to young women who think its cute or fun to watch porn with their squeezes. I would even recommend it to men who think porn stars are all happy go lucky nymphos.

That would be the extreme end of it, but there are damn few that would argue that all of them are like that. Lovelace had a hell of a time of it, as did most porn talent, in a time when porn performers were much more open to abuse than they are now, and they still are more open to it than many other types of performers.
At the risk of exposing something personal, I would recommend having a look at the blog of one of my Sisters, My Dancer Diary. She's a moonbat, and I ask you to be respectful if you comment there, but she is a confident and strong woman that is also a stripper. She has an informed perspective on this subject.
Link is semi safe for work, but the subject matter is mature.

664 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:07pm

re: #524 reine.de.tout

Well, yes I would believe them, why wouldn't I, and why would you question what I would do?

I agree that Muslims peep their head out from a rock and get smashed; must lead to a lot of fear within their own community.

I know that here, given the anonymity of the internet - Muslims who wished to could come and decry violence and anti-semitism, and no one would know who they were. I don't see it happening. If you know that it is happening somewhere, I would dearly love a link.

Because until recently, maybe a year or so, this website was a hotbed for muslim bashing. It's still a hotbed for liberal bashing, although I'm happy to see that a lot of that is changing. When one constantly reports on negativity, it spreads hatred and untruths. Yes, I could find positive things about American Muslims. Not at the very moment, but I will.

At the Tucson walk, the Muslim man who spoke, he wasn't an Imam tho, said that peaceful Muslims interpret the jihad as an internal struggle. I know zippo about the Koran so I can't tell you. And of course plenty of people believe peaceful Muslims is a false statement.

665 J.D.  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:30pm

re: #657 FredWM

Honest, ossifer...

Good question.

666 Jimmah  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:39pm

Hate Crimes

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

There are some who will identify his desire to attack American military aircraft as a rational, though misguided and illegitimate, response to his anger over American military activity in Afghanistan: the ‘foreign policy’ explanation for terrorism. Others will explain the attempt to blow up a synagogue as antisemitism, pure and simple. Some may try to elide the two, by assuming that because this person was angry about the war in Afghanistan, he was probably angry about Palestine too, thereby explaining the selection of a synagogue as a target.

Think this is a straw man? Think instead of Mumbai, and the argument put forward that the selection of Chabad House for attack was an anti-Israel act, not an antisemitic one, because the sole surviving terrorist said that it was chosen to avenge Palestinian suffering. What was striking was the effort to grasp at any evidence that the perpetrators of such a horrifically inhumane act, requiring a total absence of human pity or empathy, were rational actors.

667 _RememberTonyC  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:47pm

re: #386 turn

Ha, the only thing batter than eating that dang thing would be doing it at the beach standing around a bbq with a beer in my hand and beautiful babes in bikinis in the background. Did I ever mention I'm not a Muslim?

You didn't have to ... you have clearly spent your life in more enjoyable ways!

668 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:48pm

re: #657 FredWM

ABC radio today in New York explained that the defendants looked on incredulously as the prosecution described them as violent jihadist. That’s after they were caught red-handed planting 37 pound bombs. So what would it take to convince them that they were violent jihadist?

Wrap real explosives around their stomachs and give them buttons that say "press here"?
/

669 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:55pm

re: #620 Walter L. Newton

So, the Koran tells them to do it, Christians didn't even need a book to tell them to do it. Horrors have been done in the name of all religions, Islam just has the current spotlight and demographics to be king of the hill right now.

Same motivations, down through the centuries and there are Christians even now who would love to see those numbers flip so they had the upper hand.

Same coin, different side.

Give me a break, Walter. It's not the books, it human nature. Shall we discuss the 20th century and the all the wars, genocides and suffering which atheists have inflicted upon humanity? Nobody has a monopoly on violence or peace.

I love you & I am honoured to call you my friend, but you might want to climb down off that high horse before you fall and hurt yourself.

670 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:32:55pm

re: #650 Sharmuta

Relativism. You don't see that practiced today by Jews or Christians. The only places you might find it are deep in tribal areas usually dominated by arab culture.

I don't think there is an equivalent to purdah.

Well...sorry, but that's not quite right. Up through Vatican II, Catholic women always covered their heads when in church; some very fundamentalist protestant off-shoots insist that their daughters and wives dress in a fashion not much different from what you see on some muslim women; and if you look at cloistered nuns, their habits are not much different than purdah, and they wear them indoors.

671 Curtain of Oz  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:33:33pm

re: #620 Walter L. Newton

I don't buy that. People have a great potential for violence but they are not the "same motivations". Look at the 20th century. Tens of millions of dead for the sake of nationalism, not religion. However, it is folly not to recognize what the Koran preaches. When the theology actively promotes war, you see the result.

672 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:33:51pm

re: #662 Sharmuta

You've missed some of the hate mail that's been shared, perhaps. People telling Charles to go commit suicide, and worse.

Suicide? Do that and one will go to Hell. They must not like Charles.
/

673 astronmr20  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:34:29pm

re: #620 Walter L. Newton

Walter,

True, but it's a matter of scale. Islam's body-count is significantly higher, and continues to climb since the inception of a religion that was founded on violence.

674 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:34:31pm

re: #670 Dianna

Purdah is more than coverings. Where in the Bible are women locked up in solitary confinement by their families? I haven't seen it.

675 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:34:52pm

re: #659 unrealizedviewpoint

Mark and Matthew, just before the Passion begins in the Garden.

676 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #652 avanti

OK, then we can ignore the Old Testament, that will clear up the whole Genesis creation issues and a lot more. When I replied, I thought the Old Testament was part of the Bible since many still quote the parts they like.
I'm signing off the whole religion discussion. it'll just get me in trouble since it confuses me.

Sigh... What you should really do is study it, understand what various sects believe about literal vs. figurative language (I know heretical to some) and watch their behavior to see how they act accordingly. If you can't bother to do that then you should probably avoid starting discussions about religion. Not just back out of them when you become confused.

677 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:35:21pm

re: #656 astronmr20

Have you actually read the Koran compared it to Christian text?

Have you seen how many people are 'sploded in a typical month in the name of Islam compared to Christianity?

After reading this anti-jihad blog for several years, I almost can't believe my eyes.

Yes, I've read the Koran, and yes, I've read the Bible (twice).

The fact is that people inclined to commit violence in the name of religion will find justification for it in either book. And I repeat -- Islam has no monopoly on hatred.

678 NY Nana  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:35:46pm

re: #638 dhg4

"(I'll have to fix my blog entry later.)"

You sure know how to party! ;)

To be honest? I was actually surprised. Lately, my attention has been called to some almost-fair articles re Israel online, but they are probably desperate to bring back their disgusted readers, as they edge towards a well-deserved oblivion. Too bad my hometown paper, the Boston Globe is not gone yet. Al-NYT will not lure us back under any circumstances. The only way I remember how long ago it was canceled is that it was a few months before my daughter in law was pregnant.

679 turn  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:35:53pm

re: #630 DaddyG

With or without dinosaurs?

That was funny dg. I think more religious people should have that same sense of humor.

680 astronmr20  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:36:08pm

re: #662 Sharmuta

You've missed some of the hate mail that's been shared, perhaps. People telling Charles to go commit suicide, and worse.

I understand. That's hatred, for sure. However, it goes directly against Christian text, and fortunately, it's rarely acted upon.

On the other hand, the Koran is a manual for hate and terror, and is used as such.

681 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:36:20pm

re: #669 Kenneth

Give me a break, Walter. It's not the books, it human nature. Shall we discuss the 20th century and the all the wars, genocides and suffering which atheists have inflicted upon humanity? Nobody has a monopoly on violence or peace.

I love you & I am honoured to call you my friend, but you might want to climb down off that high horse before you fall and hurt yourself.

But did those atheists do that in the name of atheism, or some other ideology, like say, communism?

682 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:36:25pm

re: #636 Thanos

Hey, I'm all for it! I welcome debate and reform within Islam. I have tremendous regard for Muslim reformers and wish them well. My problem is with non-Muslim apologists who have swallowed the taqiyya promoted by the Saudis and the Muslim Brotherhood.

683 The Shadow Do  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:38:01pm

re: #658 DaddyG

That preacher was an idiot and evil. The definition of rod is mistranslated to mean stick. Rod should be more accurately translated as the law or the book of law. IOW don't teach your child the rules and you are spoiling them.

I have little or no patience for anyone who cherry picks scriptures regardless if their intent is to support their brand of Christianity or degrade it. Either is willful ignorance.

Of course it's about what is being tranlated/understood. That's the point, Christianity can deny and argue but the facts are that a lot of behavior is at the least justified, if not driven by said scriptures.

Preacher was indeed evil though most everyone under that tent would have disagreed. Lots of welts on little kids ensued that night in His name. Beyond sad. To hell with scriptures of any stripe, I judge on deeds.

684 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:38:45pm

re: #674 Sharmuta

I was pointing out that - between Paul's injunctions (actually, pseudo-Paul, in one case) about women covering their heads, not braiding their hair as an adornment, being modest, and wives obeying their husbands (to say nothing of the many interpretations applied over time), I would approach this cautiously.

685 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:39:27pm

re: #671 Curtain of Oz

I don't buy that. People have a great potential for violence but they are not the "same motivations". Look at the 20th century. Tens of millions of dead for the sake of nationalism, not religion. However, it is folly not to recognize what the Koran preaches. When the theology actively promotes war, you see the result.

Christianity motivated anti-semitism for almost 2000 years, and look how easy it was for a dictator to run with that mindset and do what he did.

And no, I'm not going to link to references, study yourself, google "christianity anti-semitism history" and read up on the subject.

If it wasn't for the history of anti-semitism, nationalism would not have had the foothold it needed to carry out the shoah.

686 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:39:28pm

re: #677 Charles

Yes, I've read the Koran, and yes, I've read the Bible (twice).

The fact is that people inclined to commit violence in the name of religion will find justification for it in either book. And I repeat -- Islam has no monopoly on hatred.

Agreed! Though Islam seems to have a greater number of followers who will act out that hatred in the form of violence.

687 Buck  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:40:32pm

re: #338 Charles

By the way, if you go to the International Free Press Society website right now, you'll find articles promoting the neo-Nazi-associated pro-Koln movement, and the fascist Vlaams Belang.

[Link: www.google.com...]

No thank you. I will take your word for it.

Tommy: " Hey i can stick my head up a bulls ass but id rather takes the butchers word for it."

688 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:41:04pm

re: #686 unrealizedviewpoint

Agreed! Though Islam seems to have a greater number of followers who will act out that hatred in the form of violence.

For now. The balance of power has shifted over the centuries, but the same hate has motivated Christians and Islam and pagans for ever.

689 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:41:47pm

re: #654 Altermite

I'm sorry, but I find that a much better justification for a legal document than a sacred 'enlightened' text.

Perhaps that is my problem. I don't see texts as enlightened. Texts are inanimate objects - interpretations of eternal concepts translated by men. If you don't seek to understand them in context and derive principles from them you will miss the mark.

The Bible is full of Mediterranean agricultural parables. I have yet to grow an olive tree in my garden because of this.

690 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:41:56pm

re: #655 Dianna

"Sell your cloak and buy a sword"?

What is the point, though? What does the instruction "whoever does not have one should sell his cloak and buy a sword" mean? It goes along with taking purses and bags for a journey, and also with Jesus' assertion that he must be "counted among the lawless" in fulfillment of Isaiah 53:12. How does one get ready to be "counted among the lawless"? Jesus' answer to that is ironic. He is about to be arrested, tried, and crucified as an outlaw; very well then, let his followers behave like a gang of thugs, grab their bags to fill up with loot, and get a grip on their swords! He's going to be strung up between two criminals -- Luke makes a point of calling them that (22:32-33) -- so his disciples might as well equip themselves for the part. What, they only have two swords? Well, that's enough -- since Jesus is not seriously giving them instructions, only making an ironic joke out of the whole situation. His disciples don't seem to get the joke; but is that anything new? Indeed, it has been suggested that the disciples' use of purses, bags, and swords in this moment is part of their failure under the testing of Satan, the same failure that includes their dispute about greatness and Peter's denial of Jesus (see 22:24-26, 31-34). They want to be great, they deny Jesus when they feel themselves endangered, they fortify themselves with goods and weapons -- it sounds all too much like the failures of the church in many ages.

691 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:44:02pm

re: #681 CyanSnowHawk

Yes, the overtly atheistic ideology of Communism killed more people in one century than all the wars of (misguided) Christianity did in 20 centuries.

692 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:44:13pm

re: #682 Kenneth

That's why I prefer to keep it focused where the evil lies; whether it's taquiya or not really doesn't matter if millions of practicing muslims are teaching that to deny spiritual jihad is kufr.

Rather than latch onto the Wahabist takfirism we should promote, not tear down, the idea of the other. Otherwise reform will never come to Islam, and that does mean unending strife due to the many flaws within the religion and its interpretations.

693 wrenchwench  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:44:22pm

re: #524 reine.de.tout

re: #587 reine.de.tout

I think this is one of those behind the march that American Sabra mentioned.

694 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:44:36pm

re: #688 Walter L. Newton

For now. The balance of power has shifted over the centuries, but the same hate has motivated Christians and Islam and pagans for ever.

Christians have evolved. I don't see them going back. On the other hand, Islam...

695 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:45:07pm

re: #688 Walter L. Newton

For now. The balance of power has shifted over the centuries, but the same hate has motivated Christians and Islam and pagans for ever.

And atheists.

696 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:45:11pm

Organized religion is headed for the ash-heap of history. It has been forseen.

697 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:45:17pm

re: #690 Kenneth

Very good - but remember that that is a gloss, an interpretation.

Peter was confused, too.

698 AZDave  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:45:51pm
They were disturbed about what happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan, that Muslims were being killed.”

I guess the fact that in both Afghanistan & Pakistan (and else where) Muslims were killing Muslim sort of eluded them.

And, of course, bombing synagogues and shoot down military aircraft is okay.

699 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:46:22pm
700 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:46:36pm

re: #692 Thanos

Are you sure millions of Muslims are following the "jihad is only a peaceful inner struggle" bit? I'm not so sure about that.

701 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:46:54pm

re: #696 voirdire

Organized religion is headed for the ash-heap of history. It has been forseen.

I think organized religion will exist, as Frank Herbert pointed out, so long as a man wakes up in the morning and says, "I am not the man I ought to be."

702 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:48:12pm

re: #686 unrealizedviewpoint

Agreed! Though Islam seems to have a greater number of followers who will act out that hatred in the form of violence.

I can't speak with any authority on the Koran, but I'm still trying to figure out how a person could justify violence against innocents in Jesus' name at all. Anyone who uses Christianity to justify such a thing is distorting scripture beyond recognition.

703 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:48:16pm

re: #701 Dianna

There's nothing organized about that.

704 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:48:21pm

re: #701 Dianna

I think organized religion will exist, as Frank Herbert pointed out, so long as a man wakes up in the morning and says, "I am not the man I ought to be."

At least until we acquire warp speed travel.

705 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:48:21pm

re: #697 Dianna

Even if He meant it literally, and very little of what Jesus said in the Gospels is literal, it's hard to take it as a call to violence.

706 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:48:29pm

re: #701 Dianna

I think organized religion will exist, as Frank Herbert pointed out, so long as a man wakes up in the morning and says, "I am not the man I ought to be."

Disorganized religion will always exist as long as man is who he is. ;-)

707 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:48:47pm

re: #691 Kenneth

Yes, the overtly atheistic ideology of Communism killed more people in one century than all the wars of (misguided) Christianity did in 20 centuries.


They killed in the name of communism, not because they did not believe in a god.

708 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:49:22pm

re: #700 Kenneth

It's on their websites, the ones muslims visit, not the outreach and dawa webs. I linked it above from one site, but you must have missed it.

709 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:49:30pm

re: #702 capitalist piglet

I can't speak with any authority on the Koran, but I'm still trying to figure out how a person could justify violence against innocents in Jesus' name at all. Anyone who uses Christianity to justify such a thing is distorting scripture beyond recognition.

Estimates (mine) suggest that 5% of the population are sociopaths.

710 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:49:34pm

re: #705 Kenneth

Even if He meant it literally, and very little of what Jesus said in the Gospels is literal, it's hard to take it as a call to violence.

I think the High Priest's servant might take issue with that.

To some degree, I'm teasing. Don't get annoyed.

711 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:49:58pm

re: #704 unrealizedviewpoint

At least until we acquire warp speed travel.

If you haven't read the appendices to Dune, do so.

712 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:50:36pm

re: #703 voirdire

There's nothing organized about that.

Ah, but the effort to change seldom succeeds in isolation.

713 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:51:11pm

re: #695 Kenneth

And atheists.

In other words, humanity in general has the capacity for hatred.

714 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:51:31pm
715 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:51:31pm

re: #694 unrealizedviewpoint

Christians have evolved. I don't see them going back. On the other hand, Islam...

... will evolve too!

716 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:51:49pm

re: #695 Kenneth

And atheists.

Yes, for sure.

717 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:52:23pm

re: #709 unrealizedviewpoint

Estimates (mine) suggest that 5% of the population are sociopaths.

I am now nervously reviewing my acquaintance, trying to figure out which 1 in 20 are those sociopaths.

718 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:52:24pm

Ps 149:1, 6-9


Praise the Lord.
Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the saints….
May the praise of God be in their throats
and a double-edged sword in their hands,
to inflict vengeance on the nations
and punishment on the peoples,
to bind their kings with chains,
their nobles with shackles of iron,
to carry out the judgment written against them.
This is the glory of all his saints.

719 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:52:34pm

re: #712 Dianna

Meaning?

720 doppelganglander  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:53:32pm

re: #651 unrealizedviewpoint

Rumor was Adam couldn't win cause he's gay and that fly over country would vote for the Christian.

I think that's sour grapes from Adam fans. Kris has a mainstream appeal similar to Danny Gokey, and Danny's votes went to Kris. I like both of them, but I could see where Adam isn't everyone's cup of tea.

721 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:53:56pm

re: #708 Thanos

I saw it, & I understand what you are saying. My question is how widespread such ideas are. A minority to be sure, but I hope a growing one.

722 dhg4  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:54:23pm

re: #678 NY Nana

"(I'll have to fix my blog entry later.)"

You sure know how to party! ;)

To be honest? I was actually surprised. Lately, my attention has been called to some almost-fair articles re Israel online, but they are probably desperate to bring back their disgusted readers, as they edge towards a well-deserved oblivion. Too bad my hometown paper, the Boston Globe is not gone yet. Al-NYT will not lure us back under any circumstances. The only way I remember how long ago it was canceled is that it was a few months before my daughter in law was pregnant.

Though I wasn't much impressed with him during his stint as Jerusalem bureau chief when he was with the Boston Globe, Ethan Bronner has been one of the better correspondents from Israel during his current stint in that post for the NY Times. He's a heck of lot better than Steven Erlanger his predecessor at the Times. And he's a lot better than anyone the Washington Post has sent in recent years.

723 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:54:34pm

re: #719 voirdire

Meaning?

Sigh. It's fairly obvious, but...

One of the reasons people attend church is to be with a group that helps them grow and be better people.

That does not mean there are not hypocrites and worse in churches.

724 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:54:42pm

re: #714 buzzsawmonkey

I love people who mistake their wet dreams for timeless wisdom.

Some more prolific than others.

725 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:56:05pm

re: #684 Dianna

But I'm not talking about the similarities in how various religions keep women "in their place", I'm specifically talking about purdah- completely cutting off women from society by segregation and full body coverings.

726 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:56:17pm

I go in search of sustenance of a more material variety.

727 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:56:44pm

re: #715 Walter L. Newton

... will evolve too!

I do agree, actually.
But not if the Jihadi's back us into a corner.

728 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:56:53pm

re: #709 unrealizedviewpoint

Estimates (mine) suggest that 5% of the population are sociopaths.

I don't know the numbers, but every group has its nuts. Secular nuts (and there are plenty of those), religious nuts - they're all nuts just the same.

729 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:56:59pm

re: #723 Dianna

You really don't sense that religion is soon to be seen as the core problem of humanity? Something that must be done away with in order to save it?

730 Curtain of Oz  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:57:06pm

re: #685 Walter L. Newton

Believe you me, I have studied that subject extensively. However, that is not what was being discussed. You were making a familiar statement - essentially, "all religions are bad because the theology promotes and justifies war." I'm just questioning that perspective, because it throws the baby out with the bathwater. Read "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl to understand what I'm talking about. Judaism has the minor concept of Amalek but if you fixated on it, you would miss 99.999% - and any essence of the faith. You could argue Christianity is violent, but that is also picking and choosing. I do have a problem with the violent theology of Islam, of which Jihad is a central pillars, no matter how one tries to sugar coat it. It works in tight correlation with Arab cultural pride, honor, and yes, violence.

731 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:57:42pm

re: #721 Kenneth

I'm not so sure it's a minority, but most of them come from cultures and forms of gov't where being outspoken is not encouraged. I'm seeing better signs in the Pakistan papers and elsewhere, but as the "holy" justification for terror is fading the "pragmatic dialectic" justifications are being revived. In other words some of the jihadis are converting back to "revolutionaries". A trend to watch.

732 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:58:24pm

re: #725 Sharmuta

But I'm not talking about the similarities in how various religions keep women "in their place", I'm specifically talking about purdah- completely cutting off women from society by segregation and full body coverings.

I'd suggest you look at the history of the Greek Orthodox Church, particularly during the Byzantine period. It's a bit outside my field, but there was the concept (imported to Russia both via Orthodoxy and the Tatars) of the turom - the women's quarters.

I can't remember the Greek/Byzantine term, just now.

733 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:58:26pm

re: #699 Iron Fist

It is a fallacy to compare random violence to the systemic campaign of violent expansionism that has ruled the Mohammedan world for 1400 years.

I didn't do that.

I'm simply pointing out that there are people who think of Eric Rudolph as a hero, and some of them do identify themselves as Christians. Also, Randall Terry and the group "Lambs of Christ" (arrested with Alan Keyes at Notre Dame), while not affiliated with Rudolph, do have ties to the Army of God, and they skate perilously close to the edge of advocating violence with slogans such as "Defend her honor, rise and strike for the unborn."

734 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:58:29pm

It is somewhat predictable that discussions re: Jihad end up in an orgy of equivocation.

If all Muslims were to more closely adhere to official Koranic teachings today would the world be a better place?

If all Christians were to more closely adhere to official Biblical teachings today would the world be a better place?

How do the actions of the bulk of Christianity and Islam compare today.

Substitute atheists, humanists or any other -ist or -ian in the above sentences and you may find out more about what you really believe.

Judge not harshly lest ye be found an ignorant raving hypocrite. (take that last sentence tongue in cheek please).

735 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:58:52pm
736 AZDave  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:59:30pm

re: #102 _RememberTonyC

Any New Yorkers out there having second thoughts on the benefits of waterboarding?

Many will have to die before that happens.

737 Curtain of Oz  Thu, May 21, 2009 12:59:33pm

re: #696 voirdire

Organized religion is headed for the ash-heap of history. It has been forseen.

Anybody who makes a statement like this has spent very little time with 99% of the worlds population.

738 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:00:17pm

re: #735 buzzsawmonkey

You are both delusional and ignorant.

Hopefully, you are very young.

739 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:00:41pm

re: #730 Curtain of Oz Well put and a bonus for a great book recommendation.

740 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:01:24pm

re: #729 voirdire

You really don't sense that religion is soon to be seen as the core problem of humanity? Something that must be done away with in order to save it?

Oh, no. That is a statement so charged that to even begin to reply is to distort someone's view.

I am not entering that particular minefield.

Except for one thing: To my mind, the core problem with humanity is that it's composed of humans.

This is not a religious view, it's a personal one.

741 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:01:39pm

re: #737 Curtain of Oz

Anybody who makes a statement like this has spent very little time with 99% of the worlds population.

I don't know anyone that has.

742 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:02:24pm

re: #729 voirdire

You really don't sense that religion is people are soon to be seen as the core problem of humanity? Something that must be done away with in order to save it?

FIFY with the moonbat wand/

743 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:02:45pm

re: #696 voirdire

Organized religion is headed for the ash-heap of history. It has been forseen.

Someone said this many years ago:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

744 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:03:15pm

re: #732 Dianna

I'm not going to argue with you about this. I've never read anything in the Bible to suggest women were to be locked away and barred from society at all times.

745 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:03:41pm

re: #738 voirdire

Hopefully, you are very young.

When all else fails Ad Hominem!

746 AuntAcid  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:04:01pm

re: #729 voirdire

You really don't sense that religion is soon to be seen as the core problem of humanity? Something that must be done away with in order to save it?

As a Zen Baptist I think the world could probably do without witchcraft, but as for all the others, I don't know.

747 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:04:50pm

Christian Extremism vs Muslim Extremism. Which is more of a threat?

From 1978 to present:
1. Jim Jones 918 killed?
2. Abortion Clinic killing or threatened. 26?
3. McViegh 168?

Muslims in the name of muslims world wide is probably over a million.
In the United States murder by Muslims is probably at a much much greater ratio then any other group. just based on 9/11.

And with the exception of young earth creationist I think Christianity is rapidly moving away from having a crusade against anyone and having to kill them to have a pure religion. Islam however has no adequate checks and balances regarding peace and violence. And Islam resides in a lot of dark age cultures where it is easy for the death cults to become the mosque and become the Iman.

We might think Christianity is horrid regarding violence just do to the familiarity with it, but Islam outpaces and outshines the rest of the world in tolerance of violence and acceptance of murder as a religious tenet. I don't think there can be any doubt about that.

748 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:05:44pm

re: #744 Sharmuta

I'm not going to argue with you about this. I've never read anything in the Bible to suggest women were to be locked away and barred from society at all times.

It's not an argument. Heck, I've talked to muslim women who hold that the whole "purdah" business isn't in the Koran, either. The way some muslims have taken some injunctions and run with them can easily be paralleled.

749 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:06:04pm

re: #746 AuntAcid

As a Zen Baptist I think the world could probably do without witchcraft, but as for all the others, I don't know.

Define witchcraft, please?

750 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:06:16pm

re: #744 Sharmuta

I'm not going to argue with you about this. I've never read anything in the Bible to suggest women were to be locked away and barred from society at all times.

Well there is that bit David wrote to his son about "it is better to live on the corner of the roof than with an argumentative woman." Lets face it though David wasn't exactly the model husband.

I figure if the scoundrels God chose for his prophets can be redeemed their is hope for me yet.

(and no that is not sarc)

751 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:06:24pm
752 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:06:32pm

re: #722 dhg4

Though I wasn't much impressed with him during his stint as Jerusalem bureau chief when he was with the Boston Globe, Ethan Bronner has been one of the better correspondents from Israel during his current stint in that post for the NY Times. He's a heck of lot better than Steven Erlanger his predecessor at the Times. And he's a lot better than anyone the Washington Post has sent in recent years.

Steven Erlanger is God awful. I have had some email traffic back and forth with him. He is ignorant to the core.

753 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:06:45pm
754 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:06:52pm

re: #745 DaddyG

You obviously didn't follow the thread.

755 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:07:21pm

re: #733 Charles

I didn't do that.

I'm simply pointing out that there are people who think of Eric Rudolph as a hero, and some of them do identify themselves as Christians. Also, Randall Terry and the group "Lambs of Christ" (arrested with Alan Keyes at Notre Dame), while not affiliated with Rudolph, does have ties to the Army of God, and they skate perilously close to the edge of advocating violence with slogans such as "Defend her honor, rise and strike for the unborn."

That is undeniable. There are people on Free Republic like that.

I absolutely disassociate myself with such people. They do not represent Christ. I don't care how much they believe they do.

756 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:07:39pm

re: #754 voirdire

So far as I can tell, you parachuted in about 20 comments ago.

Pot and kettle.

757 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:07:54pm
758 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:08:43pm

Lunch. Sustenance. Material sustenance.

Man, I said that 40 minutes ago. What is the matter with me?!

759 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:08:58pm
760 Curtain of Oz  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:09:25pm

re: #735 buzzsawmonkey

You are both delusional and ignorant.

Agreed. It amazes me. This is the 'ideal'. Since 1945 Europe, the citadel of Christianity, has gradually but inexorably turned its back on its own future. Seduced by the appeal of cradle-to-grave social welfare programs administered by bigger and less-responsive governments, and freed from the responsibility of defending themselves, the Europeans have devolved into a pleasant narcissism

They don't reproduce. Birth-rates are well below replacement levels. They don't give to charity. The government is expected to take care of the poor. They don't attend church or practice their religion. They are dependent on unlimited immigration from Muslim countries to do their work. Europe is dying. Worse, the Europeans know that their societies are dying, but cannot rouse themselves to do anything about it. They just hope the disaster happens after they're dead - when nothing matters.

761 calcajun  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:09:27pm

re: #677 Charles

The problem we all have here is that this forum is ill-suited to discuss in detail the relative problems of both theologies. You are all correct in that there is plenty of material in both holy texts that can be used (and has been used) to justify the most heinous acts in human history--both on a large national scale and on a smaller "kill they neighbor" level.

A pretty learned Bible scholar taught me a little aphorism; "Text without context is pretext." Any of us could treat the Bible or Koran as a philosophical cafeteria and "pick and chose" what suits our fancies. It's keeping things in the proper historical context that is the issue. This is where, I think, Christianity has an "edge" so to speak over Islam. Christianity had its reformation--Islam has not.

Having the common man being able to read the Bible in his own native tongue is still relatively new to the West--i.e., the King James Bible. In Islam, (as I understand it) the only valid way to read the Koran is in Arabic. There's a greater liberty in the west to read the Bible and wrestle with the scriptures and seeing the context. That liberty is not there in Islam (again as I understand it).

crud--gotta go-duty calls. later.

762 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:10:00pm

re: #743 avanti

Someone said this many years ago:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


In the context of the remark you were responding to, what do you think that means, avanti?

763 yochanan  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:10:23pm

re: #91 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

you get a hebrew name but it doesn't require you to change your legal name.

764 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:10:30pm
765 Altermite  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:11:25pm

re: #761 calcajun

The problem we all have here is that this forum is ill-suited to discuss in detail the relative problems of both theologies. You are all correct in that there is plenty of material in both holy texts that can be used (and has been used) to justify the most heinous acts in human history--both on a large national scale and on a smaller "kill they neighbor" level.

A pretty learned Bible scholar taught me a little aphorism; "Text without context is pretext." Any of us could treat the Bible or Koran as a philosophical cafeteria and "pick and chose" what suits our fancies. It's keeping things in the proper historical context that is the issue. This is where, I think, Christianity has an "edge" so to speak over Islam. Christianity had its reformation--Islam has not.

Having the common man being able to read the Bible in his own native tongue is still relatively new to the West--i.e., the King James Bible. In Islam, (as I understand it) the only valid way to read the Koran is in Arabic. There's a greater liberty in the west to read the Bible and wrestle with the scriptures and seeing the context. That liberty is not there in Islam (again as I understand it).

crud--gotta go-duty calls. later.

Now, perhaps. 400 years ago, there was not.

766 JustABill  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:11:27pm

re: #670 Dianna

Well...sorry, but that's not quite right. Up through Vatican II, Catholic women always covered their heads when in church; some very fundamentalist protestant off-shoots insist that their daughters and wives dress in a fashion not much different from what you see on some muslim women; and if you look at cloistered nuns, their habits are not much different than purdah, and they wear them indoors.

The difference being that if a wife or daughter did not conform, the might be disowned or cast out from the community. Compare that to being stoned, lit on fire, splashed with acid, beheaded, or God knows what else...

767 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:11:42pm
768 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:11:49pm

re: #754 voirdire

You obviously didn't follow the thread.

You implied closely held religious beliefs are superstitions to be grown out of, Buzz called you Delusional and Ignorant, you said hopefully he's young (again damnation by feint praise implying inexperience).

The condescension is thick and the Ad Hominem is clear.

I think I've got a pretty good grip on this thread but thanks for trying to mind read me!

769 capitalist piglet  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:11:52pm

re: #735 buzzsawmonkey

You are both delusional and ignorant.


Buzz: You, on the other hand, rock.

770 Curtain of Oz  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:12:27pm

re: #739 DaddyG

Thanks. I just read it again. Has made me really think twice about a lot of things. Especially my gut tendencies toward the allure of atheism.

771 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:12:52pm

re: #707 CyanSnowHawk

They killed in the name of communism, not because they did not believe in a god.

I have to disagree. When the Russians invaded eastern Poland, one of the groups they specifically targeted was priests. They understood that men of faith were the enemies of Communism. There are hundreds of other similar examples. Read the Gulag Archipelago or A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich to understand the Communists attitude toward Christians. And toward religious Jews as well, for that matter.

I have heard far too many militant atheists directly and specifically blaming all the wars of history on religion as one the main reasons why they are atheists. More often than not, these atheists are also Leftists. When I point out to them how Marxists, Leftists, Maoists, Communists and other political atheists have murdered far more people than any Christian Crusade ever did, they typically launch into denials and obfuscations, including the ever popular "no true Scotsman" type of argument.

Now, if you are going to argue that Communism was a pseudo-religion to these atheists, so they weren't true atheists, just religious fanatics of another stripe, I call bullshit. Communism is explicitly atheistic. I could counter and say the Christian warriors weren't acting as "Christians", but as soldiers of their King, etc. But that too would be a no-true-Scotsman dodge, too. So lets not resort to that denial.

People have always waged wars for a number of causes: religion, political ideology, greed, power, land, racial hatred, tribal honor, vengeance, lust or just plain hunger.

772 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:13:25pm

re: #761 calcajun

"Text without context is pretext."

Ding

773 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:14:19pm

Church of Jesus Christ Christians:

[Link: www.aryannations.org...]

774 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:14:53pm

re: #750 DaddyG

Jesus didn't come for the righteous.

775 boogereatinmoron  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:15:00pm

In over forty years of church life I have never heard one call to violence of any kind against any person. I have attended Episcopalian, Assembly of God, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Baptist and non demoninational meetings and heard literally thousands of sermons and teachings without once being called to violence.

As Christians become more like Jesus the world becomes safer and people's lives become better.

As Muslims become more like Mohammed the world becomes more dangerous and people's lives become worse.

776 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:15:22pm
777 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:15:32pm

re: #770 Curtain of Oz

Thanks. I just read it again. Has made me really think twice about a lot of things. Especially my gut tendencies toward the allure of atheism.

Paradoxically a Jew Viktor Frankl taught me more about being fully Christian than most Christian scholars I've read have done. There is something of a great godliness about his teaching.

778 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:15:39pm

re: #729 voirdire

You really don't sense that religion is soon to be seen as the core problem of humanity? Something that must be done away with in order to save it?

You're joking right? Have you ever heard of Communism? Various Communist regimes attempted to eliminate religion from society by murdering millions of people. Is that the something you are advocating?

779 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:15:52pm

re: #774 Sharmuta

Jesus didn't come for the righteous.

It's why I like to say things like, "Christmas isn't for the children, it's for the sinners."

780 AuntAcid  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:16:16pm

re: #749 Dianna

Define witchcraft, please?

Oh crap, you're not a white witch are you? It's the beastly practices I...forget it, never mind, I'm going to stop digging right here and now...

781 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:19:42pm

re: #753 Salamantis

[Link: www.christianhistorytimeline.com...]

Yes but then it was the Christians from the UK and the US and Canada an Australia that went and defeated the Christians in Germany. I agree that Christians acquiesced more then they should have. But is the Swastika a Christian or a Pagan symbol? Paganism is not innocent in it role in the 3rd Reich if Christianity is also not innocent.

782 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:19:42pm

re: #747 hazzyday

Christian Extremism vs Muslim Extremism. Which is more of a threat?

From 1978 to present:
1. Jim Jones 918 killed?
2. Abortion Clinic killing or threatened. 26?
3. McViegh 168?

Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian extremist. He was not a practicing Christian of any denomination.

783 yochanan  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:20:04pm

re: #696 voirdire

Organized religion is headed for the ash-heap of history. It has been forseen.

sounds rather bigoted i would say
also this is what the commies also believed.

784 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:21:27pm

re: #779 Sharmuta

It's why I like to say things like, "Christmas isn't for the children, it's for the sinners."


One of my favorite things to do to people who rail against Halloween is to remind them that All Hollows Eve was origianlly a celebration of Christ's freeing the spirits of the departed from limbo while the contemprary celebration of Christmas is aligned with the pagan winter solstice observations.

(The lesson being that you should allow people to ascribe their own meaning to symbols and traditions and not try to convince them that their are secretly evil for wanting to give candy to kids and wear costumes.)

It is fun to wach fundie heads pop from time to time. (Yes I am a little evil that way).

BTW- I can really make this discussion interesting and ask all the other Christians out there if they think as a Mormon (aka member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) I really believe in the real Jesus Christ! (naw- I don't think I'll go there...)

785 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:22:53pm

re: #780 AuntAcid

Oh crap, you're not a white witch are you? It's the beastly practices I...forget it, never mind, I'm going to stop digging right here and now...

Tree Worshippers versus black magic practioners. The US has more tree worshippers, the rest of the world has more black magic partioners.

Troofers and Creationists today would be our closest thing to organized black magic practioners. Black Magic is essentially the art of suggestion for ones own benefit. Uri Geller.

786 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:23:15pm
787 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:23:47pm

re: #783 yochanan

sounds rather bigoted i would say
also this is what the commies also believed.

Irrationality must go. The global community cannot afford WMD in the hands of the irrational. Those who believe in Islam are, prima facie, irrational.
Those who believe in the Bible, Christianity, creationism, etc. are irrational.
All religion must go.

This is how I think the process will go. It's not a matter of bigotry.

788 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:24:08pm

re: #780 AuntAcid

Oh crap, you're not a white witch are you? It's the beastly practices I...forget it, never mind, I'm going to stop digging right here and now...

Tee-hee!

No, I'm not any variety of witch. But "witchcraft" is a specific Christian heresy, never mind the wiccans. I enjoy whacking at it.

789 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:24:10pm

Looks like I killed this thread.

MY DOGMA WINS BY DEFAULT!

Nyah Nyah... I'm the best.

You are all going on the trash bin of history.

Wooo Hooo I'm right. I'm the winner.

I rock you losers...

Jihad this!

///

uh hi Stinky what's up?

790 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:25:07pm

re: #784 DaddyG

One of my favorite things to do to people who rail against Halloween is to remind them that All Hollows Eve was origianlly a celebration of Christ's freeing the spirits of the departed from limbo while the contemprary celebration of Christmas is aligned with the pagan winter solstice observations.

(The lesson being that you should allow people to ascribe their own meaning to symbols and traditions and not try to convince them that their are secretly evil for wanting to give candy to kids and wear costumes.)

It is fun to wach fundie heads pop from time to time. (Yes I am a little evil that way).

BTW- I can really make this discussion interesting and ask all the other Christians out there if they think as a Mormon (aka member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) I really believe in the real Jesus Christ! (naw- I don't think I'll go there...)

It's common since the Egyptians to deface the old gods and use their tools as a cornerstone for the new religion. This even occurred in the transition from GWB to Obama.

791 voirdire  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:25:39pm

Can't comment further. For some reason, the script chews up memory like crazy. Makes interaction almost impossible.

792 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:26:07pm

re: #788 Dianna

Tee-hee!

No, I'm not any variety of witch. But "witchcraft" is a specific Christian heresy, never mind the wiccans. I enjoy whacking at it.

It gets even better when you correctly interpret the word "witch" in the KJV as "Murderess" as in "thou shalt not suffer a murderess to live".

Oops sorry all you good folk of Salem Mass. =:-o

793 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:26:46pm
794 Curtain of Oz  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:26:49pm

re: #776 Iron Fist

Anyone that thinks atheism has its hands clean needs to review the history of the USSR and the People's Republic of China. Pay special attention to Stalin (his whole reign) and Mao during the Cultural Revolution (he butchered people before and after the Cultural Revolution, but that phase of his rule is especially henious).

Agreed, I often think I'm an atheist who believes in religion (my own struggle). Probably hated by both camps on that front. I mentioned Frankl's book earlier because he describes the horrors men are capable of. Violence a violent people polluting religion is a problem. My issues with Islam is it is both the theology and the practitioners can't separate it out themselves. However, the atheist philosophy throws the baby out with the bathwater. So much wisdom, so much history, so much charity...

795 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:27:19pm

re: #782 Kenneth

Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian extremist. He was not a practicing Christian of any denomination.

But people use him as this type of example all the time. As an example that we kill our violent extremists and Islam celebrates theirs.

796 Dianna  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:27:20pm

re: #792 DaddyG

It gets even better when you correctly interpret the word "witch" in the KJV as "Murderess" as in "thou shalt not suffer a murderess to live".

Oops sorry all you good folk of Salem Mass. =:-o

Nope, that's incorrect.

The term is "pythonissa", one who has a familiar spirit. It's an interesting history, and quite messy.

797 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:27:22pm

re: #791 voirdire

Can't comment further. For some reason, the script chews up memory like crazy. Makes interaction almost impossible.

It gets that way over 500 or so comments. Enjoy the new open thread.

798 avanti  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:27:34pm

re: #762 capitalist piglet

In the context of the remark you were responding to, what do you think that means, avanti?

Organized religion will continue to have less influence as time goes by, just as we rejected Greek and Roman mythology.

799 Sharmuta  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:28:45pm

re: #784 DaddyG

I can understand. I have my opinions on Christmas, and most people think I'm strange. I haven't asked for any gifts for the last couple of years now because the gift of salvation is enough for me. For not wanting material goods on a spiritual holiday, I'm considered odd. So be it.

800 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:28:51pm
801 dhg4  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:29:39pm

re: #752 Joel

Steven Erlanger is God awful. I have had some email traffic back and forth with him. He is ignorant to the core.

After his stint in Jerusalem ended Erlanger moved to Paris. Guess what happened on his watch last year? Karsenty won against Enderlin.

Erlanger didn't even bother to cover it.

802 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:29:40pm

re: #796 Dianna

Nope, that's incorrect.

The term is "pythonissa", one who has a familiar spirit. It's an interesting history, and quite messy.

OK I learned something. Probably not the only thing I've swallowed whole from another teacher. Dang me for not learning greek and hebrew- even then you can't get an original manuscript... sigh.

803 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:29:59pm

re: #781 hazzyday

The swastika was a pagan symbol. The Nazis were overtly anti-Christian, with an openly pre-Christian pagan theology. The Nazi hatred of Jews was based upon race, not religion. Lapsed protestants formed the largest demographic of people who joined the Nazi party.

So while Germany was a Christian country, and no doubt the Nazis tapped into pre-existing Christian religious prejudice, Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon.

804 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:30:32pm

re: #798 avanti

Organized religion will continue to have less influence as time goes by, just as we rejected Greek and Roman mythology.

L Ron Hubbard will own the 22nd century. //

805 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:31:02pm
806 Randall Gross  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:31:02pm

re: #747 hazzyday

Lord's Resistance Army: 12000

807 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:31:17pm
808 hous bin pharteen  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:31:44pm

With our new leadership, and cutting things on Border Patrol ( why keep out future democrats?), it must be fun having your brain removed. All you have to do is sing songs and chant. Koom by ah! People worry about nut case right wingers. The FBI should keep and eye out on them. But do not forget the Muslim nut-balls. They tried to blow up the Towers the first time with a rental truck. There tactic of war now is IED's. If we do not watch the borders and watch suspects it will be very easy for them to get in from Mexico. I have not gone to Canada in a while, but we should jointly wacth that border. How long till the first IED in rush hour traffic? Yeah, don't worry about. For the chance of assholes reading this, I wont describe how they can be made. But the jihad-est already know how to make them.

809 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:31:48pm

re: #787 voirdire

Irrationality must go.

You just disqualified yourself.

810 JustABill  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #787 voirdire

Irrationality must go. The global community cannot afford WMD in the hands of the irrational. Those who believe in Islam are, prima facie, irrational.
Those who believe in the Bible, Christianity, creationism, etc. are irrational.
All religion must go.

This is how I think the process will go. It's not a matter of bigotry.

Good luck with that...

811 solomonpanting  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:32:59pm

re: #738 voirdire

re: #735 buzzsawmonkey

You are both delusional and ignorant.

Hopefully, you are very young.

787 voirdire


re: #783 yochanan

sounds rather bigoted i would say
also this is what the commies also believed.

Irrationality must go. The global community cannot afford WMD in the hands of the irrational. Those who believe in Islam are, prima facie, irrational.
Those who believe in the Bible, Christianity, creationism, etc. are irrational.
All religion must go.

This is how I think the process will go. It's not a matter of bigotry.

Your incorrect assumption in #738 appears to be a self-description in your #787.

812 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:33:12pm

re: #745 DaddyG

When all else fails Ad Hominem!

Ad Hominem, the real missing link? Moving from homo sapiens to homo twitter? People with 6 fingers on a hand or toe become the blueprint.

813 abolitionist  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:33:58pm

re: #615 turn

Ok but where can I get video of the Crusades?
/

Well, there's a masterfully produced promotional DVD narrated by Ben Kingsley called Islam: Empire of Faith (2000), which goes on and on about how the faith preserved civilization, promoted science, medicine, math and literature during the dark ages, was spread far and wide by entirely peaceful means, and is now close to achieving global dominance. It's kinda weird how they use a video clip to dramatize the point, with a few dozen horsemen kicking up clouds of dust as they race across an open plain, yelling and waving swords.

Utter doublethink there, but you're not supposed to notice.

814 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:34:24pm

I just love it when atheists play prophet and try to predict the patterns of major social movements and religions far into the next century or millenium.

Just sayin' its kind of ironic.

815 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:35:07pm
816 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:35:15pm

re: #807 buzzsawmonkey

I thought Elrond Hubbard was happy there in Rivendell.

Maybe he has stepped on that boat to the west without his ring.

817 Kenneth  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:35:41pm

re: #791 voirdire

Can't comment further. For some reason, the script chews up memory like crazy. Makes interaction almost impossible.

There's always a good side, isn't there.

818 Curtain of Oz  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:35:53pm

re: #795 hazzyday

But people use him as this type of example all the time. As an example that we kill our violent extremists and Islam celebrates theirs.

Right on. Well said. They same twisted logic is used with Baruch Goldstien who shamed Israel. None the less, people loved to say "see, Jews have terrorists too!"

819 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:36:08pm
820 Liberal Classic  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:37:20pm

re: #782 Kenneth

Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian extremist. He was not a practicing Christian of any denomination.

I beg to differ. McVeigh's connection to the Christian Identity movement is non-controversial.

821 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:39:07pm
822 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:39:30pm

re: #819 Iron Fist

Marx claimed the Revolution was inevitable, that the progression of history was marching toward a Communist Utopia. That worked out well, didn't it?

The One is still working on it. //

823 Liberal Classic  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:39:37pm

re: #771 Kenneth

I have heard far too many militant atheists directly and specifically blaming all the wars of history on religion as one the main reasons why they are atheists. More often than not, these atheists are also Leftists. When I point out to them how Marxists, Leftists, Maoists, Communists and other political atheists have murdered far more people than any Christian Crusade ever did, they typically launch into denials and obfuscations, including the ever popular "no true Scotsman" type of argument.

Now, if you are going to argue that Communism was a pseudo-religion to these atheists, so they weren't true atheists, just religious fanatics of another stripe, I call bullshit. Communism is explicitly atheistic. I could counter and say the Christian warriors weren't acting as "Christians", but as soldiers of their King, etc. But that too would be a no-true-Scotsman dodge, too. So lets not resort to that denial.

re: #803 Kenneth

The swastika was a pagan symbol. The Nazis were overtly anti-Christian, with an openly pre-Christian pagan theology. The Nazi hatred of Jews was based upon race, not religion. Lapsed protestants formed the largest demographic of people who joined the Nazi party.

So while Germany was a Christian country, and no doubt the Nazis tapped into pre-existing Christian religious prejudice, Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon.

Forgive me for saying so, but I think you're engaging in hypocrisy.

824 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:39:59pm
825 hous bin pharteen  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:40:25pm

re: #819 Iron Fist

We must have been classmates in Russian history class

826 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:41:30pm

re: #803 Kenneth

The swastika was a pagan symbol. The Nazis were overtly anti-Christian, with an openly pre-Christian pagan theology. The Nazi hatred of Jews was based upon race, not religion. Lapsed protestants formed the largest demographic of people who joined the Nazi party.

So while Germany was a Christian country, and no doubt the Nazis tapped into pre-existing Christian religious prejudice, Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon.

You must not have clicked on this link; I request that you do so now.

[Link: www.christianhistorytimeline.com...]

The Roman Catholics were still preaching the Christ-killer blood libel against Jews at that time, and had been for more than a thousand years. And the German father of Protestantism, Martin Luther, published a pamphlet entitled On the Jews and Their Lies. Hitler tapped into a deep well of Christian antisemitism, which is how he was able to sway so many German Christians to support the Reich.

Meanwhile, the Russian Orthodox Christian Czarist Russiam secret police wrote a little book entitled the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and attributed it to Jewish authors so they could justify their pograms aganst the Jews.

827 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:41:47pm
828 hazzyday  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:42:53pm

I'm not convinced there are any atheists. Too many people who called themselves atheists and then as they aged and either became wiser or senile became religious in some manner. Maybe not as in Catholic, maybe as an idea that there is a unified theory of science that we can't comprehend yet. The Christian principles should be accepting of this. One issue i would have is there are self labeled pro evolutionary atheists who are the equivalent of our young earth creationist friends. And both sets are unable to work with a separation of church and state.

829 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:44:41pm

re: #823 Liberal Classic

Forgive me for saying so, but I think you're engaging in hypocrisy.


Hitler was snaching up all sorts of mythical artifacts and seemed to have a morbid fascination with mysticism of all types. There is no doubt that Christians were involved with horrible crimes and genocide but there is also no doubt that largely Christian peoples fought the Nazis and gave their lives for their fellow men (Jews, Christians and others inclusive).

Hitler did not get his beliefs from the Vatican, Salt Lake City or the Southern Baptist convention however.

830 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:45:56pm
831 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:46:12pm

re: #828 hazzyday

I'm not convinced there are any atheists. Too many people who called themselves atheists and then as they aged and either became wiser or senile became religious in some manner. Maybe not as in Catholic, maybe as an idea that there is a unified theory of science that we can't comprehend yet. The Christian principles should be accepting of this. One issue i would have is there are self labeled pro evolutionary atheists who are the equivalent of our young earth creationist friends. And both sets are unable to work with a separation of church and state.

Umm...there are no deities in Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism; you think that they all convert to some monotheism or other when bucket-kicking time draws near? And paganism and Hinduism have multiple deities...

832 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:46:31pm
833 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:48:35pm
834 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:50:08pm
835 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:50:59pm

re: #833 buzzsawmonkey

He did, however, have an immense admiration for Henry Ford (whose dealerships in Germany, BTW, distributed Ford's antisemitic tract The International Jew, which some credit with having helped Hitler to power), and showed that admiration by applying Ford's assembly-line techniques to the mechanics of death when the Final Solution was implemented.

And Henry Ford cribbed The International Jew from the Czarist Russian Orthodox Christian secret-police-written Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

836 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:51:23pm

re: #833 buzzsawmonkey
I'm glad we are maturing as a people. Too bad it takes world wars and final solutions to shock us out of our ignorance.

837 hous bin pharteen  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:52:45pm

re: #828 hazzyday

That crap does not apply here. If you want your religion to run the government, go somewhere else. One thing that makes this country so great is we tolerate and accept all kinds of religions and people. Catholic, protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Even Gothic! (joking!)

838 american sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:53:41pm

re: #581 Ben Hur

Most American Jews, especially the youth, have a growing connection with Judaism, and less so with Israel.

I don't find that true at all. Not amongst Jews. It's nearly impossible to remove Israel from a Jew. In our prayers "Israel" means "Jews". When God speaks to Israel, he's not speaking to a mound of dirt. He's speaking to us. Mind you, I am reform and currently do not belong to a synagogue.

If you have a study saying otherwise, I'd like to see it. But I think it's a misconception because you look at the colleges and you see all that crap, but that's not coming from Jews. Maybe some small part. The Chomskys are few and far between. The great majority of Jews love Israel. Honestly. Would I lie to you?

839 DaddyG  Thu, May 21, 2009 1:55:04pm

BBL - off to the new thread.

840 hous bin pharteen  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:03:57pm

re: #832 Iron Fist

That was a great moment in history. WW2 was filled with evil people. At first, Stalin and Uncle Adolph were friends. Even Italy and Japan had nut jobs in charge. And who does not like Italian food? Does America hold Mussolini responsible for how much trouble Italy was? Forgive and forget and move on.

841 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:08:17pm

re: #492 DaddyG

Kudos to the local groups who try. I have great respect for several friends and neighbors who are American Muslims and are tolerent of others beliefs.

There needs to be some serious internal dialogue and housecleaning within Islam before any outreach to other groups stands a chance at widespread success.

On an individual and group level any group truly wanting to change their behavior should expect doubt and resistance from others. Genuine contrition requires some patience with the response. Unfortunately far too much of Islamic community around the world is still content to blame others and seek to destroy what they do not understand.

Where you going?!

Yes, I like to be specific about American Muslims tho. I'm not sure about Europe. I mean, they have another issue definitely and larger Muslim populations, but I'm not convinced it's all bad.

I've read on a post here before, oh quite some time ago, someone compared the reforming of Islam to the reforming of Christianity and pretty much got their ass handed to them. How dare anyone insinuate that Christianity needed reforming! So maybe I shouldn't open that bag of worms. People say that Islam cannot be reformed. I just read Pam Geller say that, in fact! But not only do I think it can, I think it must and it will. I would like to live to see it.

842 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:33:55pm

re: #587 reine.de.tout

Well, OK.
I don't happen to believe that "keeping one's head down" and failing to critically examine and self-criticize is a particularly grand way to show the world that 1) you believe a problem exists, and 2) you think something should be done about it.

Whereas, in spite of the screeching by a certain person here (Walter) on the eeevils of Christianity, I DO INDEED see many Christians here (and elsewhere) NOT keeping their heads down but engaging in productive and effective self-evaluation and self-criticism of Christian beliefs that lead to violence and anti-semitism.

American Sabra questioned whether I would believe any Muslims who professed to be doing this. Yes I would. I asked to be shown where this might be happening on a larger scale than the occasional one or two.

And to Kenneth, too.

It's damned if you do and damned if you don't. Muslims who criticize their violent brethern I don't think are really heard or believed. Well first off, there's like 4 of them... (Nonish, Gabriel, Ali, etc.) Or they try to make a jester of peace (as in walks) and people don't care. I mean even Christians here when reminded of their centuries of violence won't acknolwedge it, or make excuses for it and we certainly have no threats from the crusades today! What difference would it make to say, Yes, that's true and it was an awful time. People don't like to look at their dark sides. It's human nature maybe.

I think it's absolutely necessary for non-Muslims to give Muslims extra room and consideration for them to "come out". But that ain't gonna happen either. I don't know the answer here.

843 wrenchwench  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:43:54pm

re: #842 American Sabra

Or they try to make a jester of peace (as in walks) and people don't care.

That's gesture. And see my #693. There is an answer, there just isn't a quick and/or easy answer.

844 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:47:14pm

re: #842 American Sabra

And to Kenneth, too.

It's damned if you do and damned if you don't. Muslims who criticize their violent brethern I don't think are really heard or believed. Well first off, there's like 4 of them... (Nonish, Gabriel, Ali, etc.) Or they try to make a jester of peace (as in walks) and people don't care. I mean even Christians here when reminded of their centuries of violence won't acknolwedge it, or make excuses for it and we certainly have no threats from the crusades today! What difference would it make to say, Yes, that's true and it was an awful time. People don't like to look at their dark sides. It's human nature maybe.

I think it's absolutely necessary for non-Muslims to give Muslims extra room and consideration for them to "come out". But that ain't gonna happen either. I don't know the answer here.

Muslims who criticize their violent brethren are given a voice, and believed - but as you said, there's like, what - 4 or so?

I see Christians here daily denounce our centuries of violence, and also acknowledge and denounce the violence and evil that occurs today in the name of Christianity (see yesterday's thread on the orphanages in Ireland). I do wonder why a few (well, a particular one here) continue to pop up with comment after comment after comment about the evils of Christianity, when Christians here have acknowledged and condemned those evils. Once the acknowledgment and condemnation have taken place, what more is it those people want me to do?

I am perfectly happy to give Muslims room to "come out". I just honestly wonder why it seems to be taking so long.

845 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:49:35pm

re: #843 wrenchwench

That's gesture. And see my #693. There is an answer, there just isn't a quick and/or easy answer.

From your 693 - I am familiar with him, I've seen several interviews with him.

846 Joel  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:50:37pm

re: #840 hous bin pharteen

That was a great moment in history. WW2 was filled with evil people. At first, Stalin and Uncle Adolph were friends. Even Italy and Japan had nut jobs in charge. And who does not like Italian food? Does America hold Mussolini responsible for how much trouble Italy was? Forgive and forget and move on.

Stalin was ever bit as bad as Hitler, he was just as bloodthirsty and even more cynical (with a great deal of paranoia to boot. Btw it was "Adolf" not "Adolph" Hitler.

847 offendi  Thu, May 21, 2009 2:57:11pm

re: #29 Charles

I appreciate your "freedom of religion" stance as it applies to European political groups that wish to restrict islamic practice, but do wonder why almost all the western world terrorists apprehended or charged happen to practice islam? Why no Jews or Christians wanting to blow up mosques?

I am wondering how your position on practicing islam provides a "veneer" for criminal activity, i.e. terrorism, squares with the actual contents of the hadiths and suras to the Koran that can be presented to prisoners. My recollection is that an Imam who worked in the New York Court system was discharged for presenting unacceptable jihadist type views.

Not trying to be critical just trying to get a better sense of how you see the context of these things.

848 martelbrigade  Thu, May 21, 2009 3:27:36pm

The number of NC Death Row masterminds that converted to Islam would blow your mind. This was back in the mid 1990s. I would be surprised if it has done anything but gotten worse.

849 American Sabra  Thu, May 21, 2009 5:29:22pm

re: #843 wrenchwench

That's gesture. And see my #693. There is an answer, there just isn't a quick and/or easy answer.

I said Jester LOL Thanks for deciphering that for me. It's a funny kind of peace.

But no, I wasn't talking about marching for the glory of sharia law! Non-political based gatherings. People getting together, eating, doing a walk, eating, attending a fair, eating. In fact, eating really must be a main part of whatever it is. The walk in Tucson started with a breakfast and ended with a lunch. Food solves all problems (ok it doesn't but it probably should).

850 Timbre  Thu, May 21, 2009 9:27:28pm

Prison conversions to Jihadism. Radical Mosques preaching jihad. Criminal conspirators confessing Jihadi plots. Gee, I wonder what the common denominator is?

851 iceman  Fri, May 22, 2009 12:53:33am

google street view showing front of another synagogue in NYC with strollers of mothers and toddlers parked in the entryway

from a previous post of mine at LGF

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I just returned from a weekend in NYC and was returning from a run in central park and passed a synagogue on the upper east side of NYC. There are some consulates, embassies and diplomatic residences in the area. There was a security guard, african american, standing at the entrance.

The building was set back from the street with outdoor foyer/entryway that was protected by a gate/fence of massive iron bars that were thick enough to prevent a vehicle from entering.

There was an overhang of the building and the iron gate/fence went completely up to the bottom of the second floor.

I was struck by the presence of about 25 empty strollers in the foyer area and I stopped and talked to the guard. "Wow that is a lot of strollers" His reply was, "There were even more here earlier they come for classes and day care."

This is the face of terrorism, and this is who these (I would call them scumbags but that would give real scumbags a bad name) monsters were trying to kill. Mothers, toddlers, working stiffs and the random passerby who stops to talk to a man guarding a synagogue.

852 SteveRogers  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:51:57am

re: #309 Charles

Frank Gaffney is connected to the "International Free Press Society," which promotes the Vlaams Belang in the US. And one of the people who works closely with him is Christine Brim, the raving nutjob associated with the "Center for Vigilant Freedom" who is one of the VB's biggest boosters in the US.

Dang. So Michelle Malkin is now officially a kook. That sucks. Oh well, better to know about it now.

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

853 SteveRogers  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:05:34am

More people need to know that Malkin has jumped the shark. If I had an account at her blog I would certainly post this info you provided and ask her to explain why she's backing neo-nazi's.
Her integrity is now ruined.

Thanks, Charles.

854 AuntAcid  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:01:20am

re: #850 Timbre

Prison conversions to Jihadism. Radical Mosques preaching jihad. Criminal conspirators confessing Jihadi plots. Gee, I wonder what the common denominator is?

Halliburton?


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 Frank says:

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