Catholic League’s Donohue: Irish Child Abuse Was No Big Deal

Religion • Views: 3,342

The Catholic League’s Bill Donohue brushes off the appalling report on child abuse by the Church in Ireland: it all happened before the 1970s, and in any case, these kids were “delinquents” and “miscreants” who probably deserved it.

And besides, everybody was doing it back then.

Reuters is reporting that “Irish Priests Beat, Raped Children,” yet the report does not justify this wild and irresponsible claim. Four types of abuse are noted: physical, sexual, neglect and emotional. Physical abuse includes “being kicked”; neglect includes “inadequate heating”; and emotional abuse includes “lack of attachment and affection.” Not nice, to be sure, but hardly draconian, especially given the time line: fully 82 percent of the incidents took place before 1970. As the New York Times noted, “many of them [are] now more than 70 years old.” And quite frankly, corporal punishment was not exactly unknown in many homes during these times, and this is doubly true when dealing with miscreants. …

The Irish report suffers from conflating minor instances of abuse with serious ones, thus demeaning the latter. When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower. They think about rape.

By cheapening rape, the report demeans the big victims. But, of course, there is a huge market for such distortions, especially when the accused is the Catholic Church.

Jump to bottom

460 comments
1 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:28:27pm

That nasty fucker!

2 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:29:34pm

Cold heart mother fucker

3 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:29:47pm

PIMF- hearted

4 davinvalkri  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:30:39pm

Not even the Catholic Church is immune to CYA syndrome, I see. We'll see how the pope weighs in, Donahue!

5 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:30:56pm

I'm glad I'm not Roman Catholic.

6 Randall Gross  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:31:24pm

what an ass.

7 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:32:31pm
When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower.

Yes- yes they do think of these things, asshole! You ever see a child get slapped, dickhead?! Ever meet a child that's been neglected?! Fucker.

8 Cathypop  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:33:12pm

This is disgusting! Raised in a catholic family and I am ... at a loss for words in how this totally disgusts me. No child should ever be abused !

9 WindHorse  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:33:28pm

Bill Donoho'..... bend over and spread 'em.... I gotchyer "deal" right here....

10 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:33:41pm

Yeah- real Christian of you, buddy.

11 purple  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:33:45pm

I would like to recommend the movie The Magdalene Sisters if you haven't seen it. It deals with this topic, and is unforgettable.

12 Joel  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:34:21pm

Donohue denounced the 2003 movie The Magdalene Sisters as being anti Catholic although the events that took place in the Magdalene Laundries n Ireland were completely true.

The Magdalen Laundry

13 Dar ul Harbarian  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:34:24pm

Raping children.

Pray for a just God.

14 davinvalkri  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:34:37pm

Wow, Sharmuta, half of the first ten comments! You feel real strong about this, don't you?

15 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:35:14pm

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right. The report states:
"More than 30,000 children, most of them delinquents, passed through one or more of Ireland’s Catholic-run institutions from the 1920s through the 1980s."
Then Bill Donohue is quoted:
"Rape, on the other hand, constituted 12 percent of the cases."

Is Donohue talking about 12% of 30,000? That is a lot of rape to minimize.

16 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:35:17pm

I know a boy who was so neglected as a baby he had a developmental problems. This fucker can rot in hell for all I care.

17 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:35:40pm

I am the judge of no one's soul but, perhaps Donohue should ponder the following verses.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew 11: 28-29

18 Joel  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:35:43pm

re: #11 purple

I would like to recommend the movie The Magdalene Sisters if you haven't seen it. It deals with this topic, and is unforgettable.

A great and harrowing movie. I saw it in the movies (it was a limited run) and own the DVD. The movie was not filmed in Ireland but in Scotland. The Director is a total lefty though (and a self proclaimed Socialist).

19 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:36:06pm

He used the word miscreants?

That's not very charitable.

20 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:36:35pm

What went on was criminal. Period. There is no point in denying it. Is it indicative of all of Catholicism? No.

21 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:36:36pm

Suffer the little childrend, Donohue!

22 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:36:50pm

re: #14 davinvalkri

Wow, Sharmuta, half of the first ten comments! You feel real strong about this, don't you?

I cannot think of enough nasty things to say about this man at this moment. Child abuse, in whatever form, should not be tolerated. Child abuse is more than rape! He has just spit on every victim of this crime. I'm completely disgusted.

23 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:37:02pm

How long will Rome ignore this?

24 Cathypop  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:37:07pm

re: #21 MandyManners

Suffer the little childrend, Donohue!

Suffer this ASSHOLE!

25 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:38:13pm

re: #20 Joan Not of Arc

What went on was criminal. Period. There is no point in denying it. Is it indicative of all of Catholicism? No.

No.

26 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:39:24pm

What was it Christ said about what you do unto others, you do unto Him?

Answer that, Donohue.

27 WindHorse  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:39:37pm

anyone who would do something untoward to a helpless, innocent child deserves to rot in Hell.

28 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:40:06pm

12% of 30,000 incidents is 3,600 rapes.

29 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:40:20pm

re: #26 MandyManners

What was it Christ said about what you do unto others, you do unto Him?

Answer that, Donohue.

I believe it was Jesus who commended children for their faith. That he who had the faith of a child would see God- am I remembering that correctly?

30 Egregious Philbin  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:40:36pm

Wow, what a bastard.

It dovetails with another story today in the same vein, evidently the former Archbishop of Milwaukee (former as he paid off a man who had a claim of molestation against him $450,000) didn't exactly think that child molestation was a crime.

Weakland says he didn't know priests' abuse was a crime

Because of what the church I grew up in, and attended from K-12 in school has done with knowingly allowing its priests to rape children, I am no longer a part of the RC. In fact, I've pretty much given up on the entire concept of religion, "God" and all that.

31 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:40:53pm

This isn't the first time that Donahue's "take" on an issue has been so far off-base, it's disgusting and frankly, frightening.

I wonder what his response would be if one of his own kids had been in this group?

He's a pompous blowhard who has no feeling in his heart for anybody. It is wayyyyyyyyy past time for him to be OUT of that position.

32 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:41:32pm

re: #25 Racer X

I don't understand.

33 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:41:33pm

re: #28 jaunte

12% of 30,000 incidents is 3,600 rapes.

And Donohue buries that in his concern about 'distortions.'

34 Joel  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:41:46pm

Ireland was always (until recently) a very closed, reactionary and yes even harsh country. So many people were raised with the notion that there was no future for them there and that they should emigrate. Years ago (2003 I believe) there was a left wing poster here with the nic "View from Ireland" whom nobody liked (eventually she got banned) but I actually got along with her despite our political differences (she like most Irish was not exactly sympathetic towards Israel's plight against terrorism) and we discussed the Magdalene Laundries (and the Movie The Magdalene Sisters) in a very civilized manner.

35 NY Nana  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:41:58pm

re: #14 davinvalkri

Wow, Sharmuta, half of the first ten comments! You feel real strong about this, don't you?

Any caring person, be they male or female, and of any religion, and atheists, agnostics, name it, who care about abused children would feel strongly about this, and cry actual tears for the innocents who were so abused.

I cannot even begin to imagine what this has done to each molested/abused child.

Do you give a damn?

36 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:42:21pm

re: #31 reine.de.tout

This isn't the first time that Donahue's "take" on an issue has been so far off-base, it's disgusting and frankly, frightening.

I wonder what his response would be if one of his own kids had been in this group?

He's a pompous blowhard who has no feeling in his heart for anybody. It is wayyyyyyyyy past time for him to be OUT of that position.

Perhaps he should be given over to the Islamofascists. I'm sure they'd love his asshole to death.

37 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:42:55pm

re: #15 jaunte

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right. The report states:
"More than 30,000 children, most of them delinquents, passed through one or more of Ireland’s Catholic-run institutions from the 1920s through the 1980s."
Then Bill Donohue is quoted:
"Rape, on the other hand, constituted 12 percent of the cases."

Is Donohue talking about 12% of 30,000? That is a lot of rape to minimize.

Not sure of the number of abuses. Of those abuse reports 12% were rapes. Not 12% of total kids going through their system.

38 davinvalkri  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:43:10pm

re: #35 NY Nana

Any caring person, be they male or female, and of any religion, and atheists, agnostics, name it, who care about abused children would feel strongly about this, and cry actual tears for the innocents who were so abused.

I cannot even begin to imagine what this has done to each molested/abused child.

Do you give a damn?

Of course, of course, yes! I care! And I'm wondering what the hell Donohue was thinking issuing this statement!

39 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:43:27pm

re: #22 Sharmuta

I cannot think of enough nasty things to say about this man at this moment. Child abuse, in whatever form, should not be tolerated. Child abuse is more than rape! He has just spit on every victim of this crime. I'm completely disgusted.

As am I.
It is just this sort of attitude that created the atmosphere where the Church simply moved the abusers around, from parish to parish, instead of dealing with them properly. And of course, as they moved around, their deeds were kept secret, and they simply continued their activities.

This is wrong, just absolutely wrong.

40 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:43:31pm

I'm mostly of Irish extraction, a Catholic, and a Catholic Charities baby, and I'm glad the people who cared for me and saw that I was adopted were not like the people who abused these Irish Catholic children.

I am not about to make any excuses for those people in Ireland, under Catholic auspices, who did not care for and respect the children.

Trying to rationalize the mistreatment of children is just totally, completely wrong. Not only that - it just makes the whole thing worse when people try to excuse such behavior.

41 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:43:39pm

This is the kind of shit that enables abusers! Yeah- smacking kids, neglecting them, withholding affection- these are all forms of abuse. And when a high profile spokesman morally equivocates on an issue like this, people don't see it as wrong.

Well, I still see it as wrong, and donohue can kiss my berry blue ass!

42 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:43:48pm

re: #32 Joan Not of Arc

I don't understand.

Sorry - I was agreeing with you. It is not indicative of all Catholics.

43 wiffersnapper  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:44:59pm

Pope > Bill Donahue.

44 Randall Gross  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:45:16pm

I'm checking out a bit, I have to finish a book

45 WindHorse  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:45:19pm

I am not a religious man... but, in this case - i would make an exception.

Bill Donohue, if we ever meet.... I will (by the Grace of God) shove my fist down your throat until it comes out your asshole......

46 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:45:50pm

Here is a link to the full report:
[Link: www.childabusecommission.com...]

47 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:46:31pm

He's really pushing it:

Regarding sexual abuse, “kissing,” and “non-contact including voyeurism” (e.g., what it labels as “inappropriate sexual talk”) make the grade as constituting sexual abuse.

So Bill Donohue thinks that kissing, and voyeurism (which is always non-contact) and sexual talk with children shouldn't be considered sexual abuse. I guess that means if Mr. Donohue saw a co-worker kissing a kid and then staring at him from a distance while bathing and occasional talking about sex is fine. Nothing to see here according to Mr. Donohue.

This man has to go.

48 NY Nana  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:46:45pm

re: #38 davinvalkri

Of course, of course, yes! I care! And I'm wondering what the hell Donohue was thinking issuing this statement!

You had me worried...sorry! I cannot even try to imagine what he was thinking....it seems that he was not thinking of the ramifications of an uncaring, ignorant statement.

He should be replaced, IMHO.

49 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:46:49pm

I retract my #2. Anyone who could say these things has no heart. Not even a cold one.

50 Joan Not of Arc  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:46:51pm

re: #42 Racer X

Okay.

51 davinvalkri  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:46:54pm

re: #45 WindHorse

I think you'd get a lineup to do that to the bastard!

52 J.D.  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:47:02pm

That's pretty damned cold.

53 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:47:15pm

re: #33 jaunte

And Donohue buries that in his concern about 'distortions.'

Exactly. His mind is so far off base on this, it's inexplicable. I cannot understand it. Well, actually . . . it's not the first time Donahue has been off-base, more concerned with "distortions" that don't exist, than with actual real people who have been harmed. He really needs to go.

54 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:47:43pm

re: #47 Gus 802

This man has to go.

To hell.

55 hazzyday  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:48:59pm

From prev thread.

Can there be any better example of the thought process that got the Catholic Church in this jam then this guy? He is the posterboy of denial. Unwilling to bear the cost of his sins.

He would have taken every pedophile priest and hidden them from public view in out of the way church properties. Where they could do their deeds and not be seen.

56 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:49:07pm

How is making excuses for child abuse in the name of God any different than what the islamists do?

57 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:49:51pm

What's next? Hitting women isn't so bad either?

58 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:50:09pm

re: #54 Racer X

I think the virgin demons who would otherwise be reaming the Islamofascists down there would take time out to visit their lusts toward Donohue.

59 WindHorse  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:51:13pm

I said it a day or two ago.... I have known it all of my life (from childhood on when I had the shit beaten out of me in the coat room at church by Tom Timeus) that organized religion is trouble at the very best....

-and, at the worst.... this.

60 Salamantis  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:51:18pm

This is the same kind of victim-condemning mindset that describes women as 'uncovered meat' that invites rapist cats.

61 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:51:37pm

re: #57 Sharmuta

What's next? Hitting women isn't so bad either?

Keep in mind - there are assholes in any organization. This guy is just one asshole. Islam is still in the lead. IMO.

62 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:51:58pm

Abusing children is also oh so pro-life, eh? Sick fucking hypocrite. Nice family values.

63 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:52:01pm

From the report:

Witnesses response to abuse

* Two hundred and eighty five (285) witnesses reported fear as their main response to being abused; 251 of those witnesses specifically described staff using their status and authority to intimidate and bully the residents.

* One hundred and ninety three (193) witnesses reported that they did not know what to do and felt powerless to act, with no one to talk to or protect them.

* One hundred and forty six (146) witnesses who reported becoming withdrawn or mute in the context of ongoing abuse stated that they were afraid of telling anyone what was happening to them. Witnesses described ‘trying to be invisible’ in order to avoid the attention of anyone who might hit or otherwise abuse them.

* Forty three (43) witnesses reported that they ran away or absconded from the School generally in the context of being severely physically and/or sexually abused. A further 16 witnesses attempted to run away but were either caught or prevented from doing so.

* Seventeen (17) witnesses reported having suicidal thoughts, 12 of whom reported actively harming themselves while they were resident in the Schools. All attempts of reported self-harm followed episodes of physical, sexual or emotional abuse. Most accounts of suicidal thoughts or wishes related to situations where witnesses described themselves as hoping the abuse would end, not being believed and feeling fearful and helpless. Forms of reported self-harm included taking an overdose of tablets, attempted drowning, refusing to eat, ingesting objects and poisonous substances, jumping from heights, and self-harm by mutilation or burns.

* Eight (8) witnesses reported that they developed eating disorders or feigned illness, which in some instances led to hospitalisation.
[Link: www.childabusecommission.com...]

64 hazzyday  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:52:28pm

As far as child abuse goes, the 70's, the 60's, the 50's are not that long ago.

65 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:54:15pm

re: #60 Salamantis

This is the same kind of victim-condemning mindset that describes women as 'uncovered meat' that invites rapist cats.

Please, do not attempt moral equivalency here.

66 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:55:18pm

Just an experiment:

Raise your hand if you think the "lesser" forms of abuse (the ones this jerk makes light of in his apologia) are not part of accepted daily practice at every prison, adult or juvenile, but especially (for this sake of this debate) the latter, in the US prison-industrial complex.

Now, ask yourself: At what point, at what age, at what degree of "delinquency" does it go from being abuse to being standard operating procedure? And at what point, at what age, at what degree of "delinquency" does it become acceptable, or even something "they" deserve?

Where do we draw the line between victims and miscreants?

And at what point do we begin to feel like hypocrites?

67 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:55:25pm

re: #63 jaunte

From the report:

Witnesses response to abuse

What's interesting is that these are just the witnesses coming forward. It should be obvious that more took place then represented by the witness testimony since many either didn't come forwards or have passed away. I would venture to guess that perhaps a statistical adjustment could be made with the data provided by the witnesses. This would mean that there are more incidents that took place then could be reported.

68 wee fury  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:55:58pm

The names of the Priests involved should be made public . . . those living and deceased.

69 hazzyday  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:56:05pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

Sarc Tag?

70 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:56:18pm

Meanwhile, in the BNP thread, two people have shown up to advocate mass deportations of Muslims, including links to the racist site Vdare.

Blocked with extreme prejudice.

71 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:56:32pm

re: #69 hazzyday

Sarc Tag?

Fuck no.

72 hazzyday  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:57:16pm

re: #71 Cato the Elder

Fuck no.

:-)

73 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:57:55pm

re: #70 Charles

Meanwhile, in the BNP thread, two people have shown up to advocate mass deportations of Muslims, including links to the racist site Vdare.

Blocked with extreme prejudice.

8-)

74 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:58:24pm

re: #72 hazzyday

:-)

Don't do sarc tags. Ever. If I'm being sarcastic, or ironic, you'll know it. My questions were perfectly serious.

75 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:58:55pm

re: #70 Charles

Meanwhile, in the BNP thread, two people have shown up to advocate mass deportations of Muslims, including links to the racist site Vdare.

Blocked with extreme prejudice.

That reminds me. Bill Donohue could be a spokesman for the BNP or Vlaams Belang.

76 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:59:06pm

Child abuse is fucked up. The Catholic church has some explaining, and cleaning house, to do. These reports make me ill, and are probably why I have not attended worship in over 30 years. But please keep in mind - the majority of Catholic organizations do much good for society. They must do a better job of condemning these acts and tossing these monsters out.

77 WindHorse  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:59:21pm

re: #71 Cato the Elder

It is sad to think that this sort of behavior exists at any level.... but to somehow try and justify this (Donohue, not you) as far as children are concerned is beyond evil.... imho...

78 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:59:41pm

I guess it's easy to sit in your nice, warm office and write that it's not that bad to be cold and eat bad food.

Turn the thermostat down to 60 all winter next year, Mr. Donohue. Read what they eat, and try to approximate that for a few years.

Then you can tell us it's no big deal.

79 swamprat  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:00:07pm

re: #70 Charles

Meanwhile, in the BNP thread, two people have shown up to advocate mass deportations of Muslims, including links to the racist site Vdare.

Blocked with extreme prejudice.

I'm sure the fact that they came to thread after the activity had subsided was a coincidence. And there were two. Another coincidence.

80 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:01:23pm

And people wonder why I avoid Catholic/Anglican schools in this area.

81 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:02:03pm

This is repost from the related article:

re: #224 Gus 802

From the Report

Female Witnesses

Physical, emotional and neglect: 226 or 59%
Physical, emotional, neglect and sexual: 123 or 32%
Physical and neglect: 20 or 5%
Physical and emotional: 8 or 2%
Physical: 3 or 1%
Physical, emotional and sexual: 2 or 1%
Physical and sexual: 1 or (0)
Total reports: 383 (100%)

Male Witnesses

Physical, emotional, neglect and sexual: 166 or 35%
Physical, emotional and neglect: 120 or 25%
Physical and neglect: 66 or 14%
Physical, neglect and sexual49 or 10%
Physical: 24 or 5%
Physical, emotional and sexual: 20 or 4%
Physical and emotional: 15 or 3%
Physical and sexual: 14 or 3%
Total reports: 474 (100%)

From the concluding comments:

19.08 Sexual abuse was reported by more than half of all the witnesses. Acute and chronic contact and non-contact sexual abuse was reported, including vaginal and anal rape, molestation and voyeurism, in both isolated assaults and on a regular basis over long periods of time. The secret nature of sexual abuse was repeatedly emphasised as facilitating its occurrence. Both residential and day settings provided opportunities for perpetrators of sexual abuse to assault children in the absence of adequate supervision and through the failure of individuals and organisations to recognise potential risk to children.

I suggest that Bill Donohue read section 19.08 and think about it for a few days.

82 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:02:04pm

re: #78 EmmmieG

What the hell kind of person thinks a cold, hungry, attention starved child deserves that sort of treatment?

83 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:02:28pm
84 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:02:30pm

The report in part "says priests and nuns terrorized thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.
[emphasis realwest].

And so enters Donohue to say

The Irish report suffers from conflating minor instances of abuse with serious ones, thus demeaning the latter. When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower. They think about rape.

By cheapening rape, the report demeans the big victims.

Motherfucker - juveniles being slapped, cold, ignored and being stared at while in the shower are NOT minor abuses Mr. Donohue and you conflate them to distract from the actual RAPES that occurred.
No, the report is not an "anti-Catholic Church" broadside, it is a direct hit on some of the most horrible things I can imagine happening to children, including but not limited to RAPE.
And it is indeed an attack on the institutions and people (adults) who carried out these horrible abuses AND on the Damned Government Inspectors.
Please do not offend our intellects and morality with these STUPID AND CRUEL STATEMENTS. People need to pay for this, BIG TIME. With, at a minimum, criminal prosecutions.

85 swamprat  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:03:41pm

re: #80 MandyManners

And people wonder why I avoid Catholic/Anglican schools in this area.


I suspect that the actions of a certain "religious" school are responsible for my daughter being a pagan. Nothing on this scale thank goodness.

86 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:04:16pm

re: #84 realwest

Here's the thing: what was the role of the civil authority?

87 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:04:19pm

re: #47 Gus 802

He's really pushing it:

So Bill Donohue thinks that kissing, and voyeurism (which is always non-contact) and sexual talk with children shouldn't be considered sexual abuse. I guess that means if Mr. Donohue saw a co-worker kissing a kid and then staring at him from a distance while bathing and occasional talking about sex is fine. Nothing to see here according to Mr. Donohue.

This man has to go.

I know many good Catholics, but Donohue is one the bad one: He's more concerned with maintaining the Church's temporal power than with its teachings. At one time I respected him, but no longer. He's just another power-loving asshole.

88 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:04:56pm

I have spent the last 5 days doctoring five dogs with diarrhea. Cleaning carpets, administering meds, and washing dog butts. I am exhausted.

I wish this on this asshole for all eternity.

89 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:05:12pm

LeBron James is a witch.

90 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:05:33pm

re: #77 WindHorse

It is sad to think that this sort of behavior exists at any level.... but to somehow try and justify this (Donohue, not you) as far as children are concerned is beyond evil.... imho...

It is evil. I know longer know what "beyond evil" means. But let it go.

What I'm interested in is the extent to which things which are classed as abuse in this report are tolerated or accepted or done in our name to juvenile offenders in our secular detention facilities. At what point do we just not look anymore because we "know" that the juveniles involved are "incorrigible" or, to use an older term, miscreants*?

*interesting word history: ORIGIN Middle English (as an adjective in the sense [disbelieving] ): from Old French mescreant, present participle of mescreire ‘disbelieve,’ from mes- ‘mis-’ + creire ‘believe’ (from Latin credere).

91 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:05:43pm

This may be the saddest entry in the report:

6.07 Many witnesses who complained of abuse nevertheless expressed some positive memories: small gestures of kindness were vividly recalled. A word of consideration or encouragement, or an act of sympathy or understanding had a profound effect. Adults in their sixties and seventies recalled seemingly insignificant events that had remained with them all their lives. Often the act of kindness recalled in such a positive light arose from the simple fact that the staff member had not given a beating when one was expected.
[Link: www.childabusecommission.com...]

92 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:06:10pm

re: #79 swamprat

I'm sure the fact that they came to thread after the activity had subsided was a coincidence. And there were two. Another coincidence.

Yep. People without the courage of their convictions try to come out after they think everyone has gone so they can spew their nonsense without fear of contradiction (for them, being found out!).
Way to go Charles.Now why not name them for us?

93 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:06:52pm
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14

I feel confident that Jesus didn't mean we'd get to Heaven and be cold, hungry, and neglected.

94 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:07:13pm

re: #91 jaunte

This may be the saddest entry in the report:

6.07 Many witnesses who complained of abuse nevertheless expressed some positive memories: small gestures of kindness were vividly recalled. A word of consideration or encouragement, or an act of sympathy or understanding had a profound effect. Adults in their sixties and seventies recalled seemingly insignificant events that had remained with them all their lives. Often the act of kindness recalled in such a positive light arose from the simple fact that the staff member had not given a beating when one was expected.
[Link: www.childabusecommission.com...]

I guarantee you that you could find similar entries in the journals of Nazi labor camps.

95 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:07:29pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

I know many good Catholics, but Donohue is one the bad one: He's more concerned with maintaining the Church's temporal power than with its teachings. At one time I respected him, but no longer. He's just another power-loving asshole.

Correct. He represent the "Catholic League" for the most part and speaks only for them. To that end he is a poor and mean spirited representative. Had anyone else responded to a situation like this they would have been fired immediately.

96 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:07:48pm

re: #94 MandyManners

It's all too human.

97 slokat  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:08:05pm

re: #66 Cato the Elder

Hmm. I'm not involved in any of that, are you?

/no sarcasm - just think that you are derailing a legitimate issue.

98 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:08:13pm
99 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:09:02pm

"Everyone was doing it" does not make it ok!

100 wee fury  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:09:26pm

According to The Irish Times:

The report follows ten years of work by the commission which dealt with thousands of complaints from former residents of predominantly Catholic institutions.

It does not identify respondents and gives pseudonyms to those found guilty in a criminal trial.

101 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:09:31pm

Fuck the "No True Scotsman" Defense that will be raised by atheists.

These people were in no way doing the Will of Christ.

Dare I say that, Christ knew them not.

102 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:09:58pm

Being Catholic, I lost any respect I had for Donohue a very long time ago. He presumes to speak for all of us when he only represents himself. As far as I am concerned, he can fuck off.

103 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:10:13pm

[deleted]

104 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:10:24pm

re: #82 Sharmuta

What the hell kind of person thinks a cold, hungry, attention starved child deserves that sort of treatment?

I cannot fathom it. Evil, sick, and twisted, I imagine.

105 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:10:37pm

Being thrown into the deep sea with a heavy millstone around your neck because of making one of these little ones stumble is too good for Donohue. I agree with Jesus, let his ass gurgle as he drowns in the judgment he totally deserves. Donohue's total devotion to corrupt leadership is all too well known to north-easterners. Believe me, I've seen it too many times. HE SHOULD BE IGNORED.

106 little boomer  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:11:09pm

This is why the move to more lay people being active in the everyday running of the church is beneficial. The more deacons (almost always married (grand) dads) , the more Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, the more adult alter servers, lectors, etc. there are hanging around the church and sacristy, the less of a chance there is that some sick bastard priest is going to want to hang around all these normal people. The ultimate solution is of course, is to let the priests get married again like they could before the middle ages. Then the pedophiles will move on to some other rock to crawl under.

107 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:11:18pm

re: #61 Racer X

Keep in mind - there are assholes in any organization. This guy is just one asshole. Islam is still in the lead. IMO.

Maybe, but the Vatican isn't too hip on condemning the violence in the disputed territories either. Forget about that. They haven't addressed the mass exodus of Christians from Nazarath and Bethlehem since the P.A. took over in the early 90's, was it? I guess it shouldn't be surprising that diddling little boys and girls is so far down on the radar.

108 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:11:41pm

re: #86 MandyManners
Well Mandy according to the AP Summary in Charles' first thread on this "and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation." it is certainly implied that the civilian (government)inspectors COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING ABOUT IT BUT CHOSE NOT TO.
Sorry for the "shouting" but this makes me alternately sick and angry to a point I'd rather never have to go to again.

109 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:11:51pm

I'm an Irishman. All my grandparents were born in Clare and Cork. My Dad lived his first 5 years in Kilfarboy, County Clare. I tended bar in the Bronx when I was 9 yrs old, at my grandfather's place, after he emigrated, every Saturday and Sunday morning. I made eggs and bacon and beer for drunks as a child.

I am disgusted and outraged by this story.

And I'd be happy to put a bottle of Paddy's on the jaw of Donohue just to make him shut his mouth.

.

110 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:12:09pm

re: #85 swamprat

I suspect that the actions of a certain "religious" school are responsible for my daughter being a pagan. Nothing on this scale thank goodness.

I lasted about one month in Catholic school. My mom pulled me out and put me in public school. The head nun said but what about her religious education? to my mom, and my mom said, "I AM thinking about her religion."

I'll never forget the nun who taught my class - I really loathed her. To be fair in retrospect, she had too many children in the class, but she picked on me constantly, and I acted out when she did. She had favorites, and she had a goat - I was the goat.

I would be a female Al Capone by now if she hadn't pulled me out. I react to harsh treatment and overbearing treatment by striking back - immediately.

Public school was like getting out of prison. I will never forget that month.

111 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:12:13pm

re: #89 Racer X

LeBron James is a witch.

You're just jealous.

112 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:12:15pm
113 coquimbojoe  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:12:40pm

That is pathetic. The adherents of the Catholic Church, or any church, shouldn't dismiss any wrong doings. If a gospel is true, then it is true independent of the actions of the followers. A belief system is only cheapened or distorted when misdeeds are excused or justified by it.

114 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:13:51pm

re: #109 Dad O' Blondes

I'm an Irishman. All my grandparents were born in Clare and Cork. My Dad lived his first 5 years in Kilfarboy, County Clare. I tended bar in the Bronx when I was 9 yrs old, at my grandfather's place, after he emigrated, every Saturday and Sunday morning. I made eggs and bacon and beer for drunks as a child.

I am disgusted and outraged by this story.

And I'd be happy to put a bottle of Paddy's on the jaw of Donohue just to make him shut his mouth.

.

Bless you. My late "map of Ireland on his face" daddy would have done the same.

115 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:15:03pm

re: #108 realwest

Well Mandy according to the AP Summary in Charles' first thread on this "and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation." it is certainly implied that the civilian (government)inspectors COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING ABOUT IT BUT CHOSE NOT TO.
Sorry for the "shouting" but this makes me alternately sick and angry to a point I'd rather never have to go to again.

SIMMA' DOWN, NOW!

We agree.

116 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:15:30pm

re: #108 realwest


Probably because of the power the Church held over govt. IRC divorce wasn't made legal in Ireland until the '80s or '90s.

117 TheAntichrist  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:16:02pm

Isn't this why Sinead O'Connor ripped up the Pope's picture in that infamous SNL performance?


118 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:16:28pm

The really pathetic part is that Mr. Donohue is trying to protect the Catholic church. To what end? Why does the church exist? To bring people to Christ, I thought.

How many more people will lose their faith because of the cover-up than would have lost their faith if the truth had been brought out swiftly and dealt with?

To all the good Catholics out there: I am sorry you are having to deal with this. Your faith and your good works deserve better.

119 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:16:34pm

Let's look a little closer to home, shall we?

No Irish or Catholic priests involved. Just regular Americans dealing with the ones we deem to be miscreants. Done in your name, and mine.

Suit claims abuse, filth at juvenile detention center

Truths About Sexual Abuse in U.S. Detention Facilities

Abuse at Boot Camps & Juvenile Detention Centers

Cruelty and Death in Juvenile Detention Centers

No Place For Children: Voices From Juvenile Detention

120 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:17:02pm

re: #111 BignJames

You're just jealous.

I am.

121 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:17:26pm

re: #90 Cato the Elder
Slight modification to part of your statement

What I'm interested in is the extent to which things which are classed as abuse in this report are tolerated or accepted or done in our name to juvenile offenders and how frequently with the acceptance of the autorities BY juvenile offenders in our secular detention facilities.


And yes, I surely would like to see an investigation into that myself.

122 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:17:37pm

re: #112 Iron Fist

I don't know chapter and verse, but doesn't the Bible (through Jesus, IIIRC) say that pedophillia is as low as it goe? Something about tying a millstone around the pedophile's neck and throwing him in the ocean.

A place where I'd say it would be reasonable to take the bible literally.

It's not that specific, Iron.

But, taking all of the Word of Christ in consideration, I'd rather be a fucking two-bit, AIDS-infected whore than Donohue.

123 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:17:40pm

I think the Irish were in denial about this for a long, long time.

Workhouses? I really had no idea there were any such things in the 20th century.

It sounds for all the world like Victorian London - east London slum conditions. You know - the 19th century?

124 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:18:27pm

re: #119 Cato the Elder

Let's look a little closer to home, shall we?

No Irish or Catholic priests involved. Just regular Americans dealing with the ones we deem to be miscreants. Done in your name, and mine.

Suit claims abuse, filth at juvenile detention center

Truths About Sexual Abuse in U.S. Detention Facilities

Abuse at Boot Camps & Juvenile Detention Centers

Cruelty and Death in Juvenile Detention Centers

No Place For Children: Voices From Juvenile Detention

You know what the difference is, Cato? No one here is going to make excuses for any of the abuses in your links. Maybe donohue would, but Lizards won't.

125 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:18:57pm

Evil lurks among us.

126 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:19:52pm

re: #120 Racer X

I am.


Couldn't watch....I'm at work.

127 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:20:02pm

re: #119 Cato the Elder

It's possible to do something about this. It means people without children are going to have to adopt, and expand their families. Adopting abused children can save lives.

128 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:20:17pm

Wow! King James makes the shot with 1 second left and wins the game!
What a stud! What a game!
How is everyone tonight?

129 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:20:37pm

re: #124 Sharmuta

You know what the difference is, Cato? No one here is going to make excuses for any of the abuses in your links. Maybe donohue would, but Lizards won't.

Did you see this?

Bill is currently the President and CEO of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, the nation's largest Catholic civil rights organization. The publisher of the Catholic League journal, Catalyst, Bill is also an adjunct scholar at The Heritage Foundation and serves on the board of directors of the National Association of Scholars and the New York State chapter of NAS.

130 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:21:05pm

re: #119 Cato the Elder

That the state does it in their institutions is one thing and certainly just as despicable, but when it's condoned by a religious institution, it's a lot more insidious. They're supposed to know better. At least be better protectors of human rights.

131 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:21:26pm

re: #121 realwest

And yes, I surely would like to see an investigation into that myself.

Let me get this straight, because I don't want to misunderstand you: You're not interested in what the authorities themselves may do in these places? Only in what they may tolerate "juvies" doing to other "juvies"? Or are you interested in all of it?

I suspect the latter, but I can't tell from the way you worded that.

132 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:22:02pm

It's appalling when people hurt children. This is something you must watch for, because there will always be evil people out to do harm. I used to drive my ex nuts because I would stop and check on a lone child in a store or mall or whatever. I'd get security if I had to. I just couldn't walk by a child in trouble.

This is what really gets me. What gets me is how long the Irish authorities looked the other way.

133 Lynn B.  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:22:11pm

Back in 2006 when Pamela Geller was interviewing and promoting Donahue I tried to bring to her attention some of his more blatant antisemitic remarks ... like this one (from an exchange with Pat Buchanan on MSNBC, no less):

Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It‘s not a secret, OK?

Pam's response:

We talked about the Pope, not anal sex or Hollywood.
One monster at a time. First I want to live free.......once that's solved we can discuss the finer points
Thanks!
Pamela

The more things change...

134 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:22:11pm

re: #129 Gus 802

Why would the Heritage Foundation want such a vile man? Sad

135 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:22:21pm
When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower.


Umm. Dude?

136 TheAntichrist  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:22:44pm

Oops, can't embed that vid. My bad.

137 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:22:45pm

re: #125 Tarkus289

Evil lurks among us.

"Lurks"? Donohue is in the front-and-center.

138 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:23:15pm

re: #119 Cato the Elder

Let's look a little closer to home, shall we?

No Irish or Catholic priests involved. Just regular Americans dealing with the ones we deem to be miscreants. Done in your name, and mine.

Suit claims abuse, filth at juvenile detention center

Truths About Sexual Abuse in U.S. Detention Facilities

Abuse at Boot Camps & Juvenile Detention Centers

Cruelty and Death in Juvenile Detention Centers

No Place For Children: Voices From Juvenile Detention

I did not punch through your links though the theme seems to be that Juvy abuse is common so let's not make too much of this. Do you not see a distinction between the trust implied in a religious institutions and secular detention/corrections facilities?

139 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:23:18pm

AndyMacOP- I am surprised at you!

140 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:23:32pm

re: #135 Cognito

Umm. Dude?

Makes you wonder about his experience, eh?

141 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:23:42pm

re: #138 The Shadow Do

I did not punch through your links though the theme seems to be that Juvy abuse is common so let's not make too much of this. Do you not see a distinction between the trust implied in a religious institutions and secular detention/corrections facilities?

No.

142 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:23:59pm

re: #133 Lynn B.

Anal sex? Where the heck did that come from? Wait - don't answer that.

143 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:24:18pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Why would the Heritage Foundation want such a vile man? Sad

I know it might be getting into a guilt by association branch but it is rather telling. It does by extension create a link between Bill Donohue vis a vi The Heritage Foundation which then extends towards, well, you know.

144 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:24:48pm

re: #115 MandyManners

SIMMA' DOWN, NOW!

We agree.


Yes, of course you're correct but I scanned some of the report itself and trust me, Donohue really tried to slip a fast one by us and that does make me angry. There is NO POSSIBLE justification for this treatment and that he would even try to minimize the non-rape abuse just pisses me off. A lot.

145 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:25:00pm

They weren't really Catholics.
/

146 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:25:21pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Why would the Heritage Foundation want such a vile man? Sad

Perhaps this is a good chance to let the HF know about him.

147 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:25:32pm

re: #118 EmmmieG

The really pathetic part is that Mr. Donohue is trying to protect the Catholic church. To what end? Why does the church exist? To bring people to Christ, I thought.

How many more people will lose their faith because of the cover-up than would have lost their faith if the truth had been brought out swiftly and dealt with?

To all the good Catholics out there: I am sorry you are having to deal with this. Your faith and your good works deserve better.

What he is doing is 'reputation protection', in this case working to bury or minimize the truth to prevent your institution from being seen in a bad light. This is a horrible idea. What is needed is honest disclosure, not another cover-up.

148 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:25:36pm

So - if I were to go over to Mr. Donahue's crib and stare at him in the shower, he'd be ok with that, right? (Not that you could PAY me to do that.....)

149 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:26:02pm
Regarding sexual abuse, “kissing,” and “non-contact including voyeurism” (e.g., what it labels as “inappropriate sexual talk”) make the grade as constituting sexual abuse. Moreover, one-third of the cases involved “inappropriate fondling and contact.” None of this is defensible, but none of it qualifies as rape.

Duuuuude.

150 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:26:27pm

re: #149 Cognito

Duuuuude.

Seriously.

151 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:26:33pm

re: #140 MandyManners

This is what he was referring to, I think:

7.99 Forty two (42) of the lay staff who were reported as physically abusive were ancillary staff employed as night watchmen, drill masters, farm workers, maintenance and trade workers. Witnesses reported that contact with lay ancillary staff was mainly in the dormitories, showers or in the context of work activity on the farm, in the kitchens or in trade shops where they were in constant contact with the staff who abused them.

They had a large shower area. We had one shower per week. The showers were back to back. The person in charge of the baths, he was a lay person, if he wasn’t happy he used to examine boys. To his reckoning if the boys weren’t clean enough, he’d examine you, he would poke and hit you with a stick. I was walloped ... quite a few times, you’d cower in the shower, he would wallop you, in the genital area and on the posterior.
[Link: www.childabusecommission.com...]

152 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:26:36pm

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

They weren't really Catholics.
/

Oh, shut the fuck up, Walter.

153 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:26:51pm

re: #101 MandyManners

In this one instance I have to say Fuck Yeah! I totally agree.

154 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:27:10pm

re: #130 American Sabra

That the state does it in their institutions is one thing and certainly just as despicable, but when it's condoned by a religious institution, it's a lot more insidious. They're supposed to know better. At least be better protectors of human rights.

The effects on the victims are the same.

Look, I'm not trying to get the Church or Donohue or anybody off the hook.

I think there ought to be more people hanging there, and some good, well-meaning Americans need to pinch themselves hard and ask what is being done on a daily basis in our names. And swept under the carpet.

155 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:28:00pm

re: #149 Cognito

Duuuuude.

In high school, my doctor kissed my bare shoulder. I told a nurse. She said I imagined it. I told a doctor. He said the guy was going through a divorce.

I told my parents. We changed doctors.

156 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:28:15pm

re: #128 HoosierHoops

Wow! King James makes the shot with 1 second left and wins the game!
What a stud! What a game!
How is everyone tonight?

Van Gundy is ridiculous. How would you like to sit next to his smelly armpits at a game. why is he coaching a major league team?

Mic'd during a time out: Ok, play some defense. We need to play some defense! And make some shots! (all said very passionately).

157 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:29:02pm

re: #131 Cato the Elder
Sorry for any confusion Cato - I want an investigation into ALL OF IT. Yes, the "officials" in our secular institutions need to be investigated for their personal roles in juvenile abuse, but they also, I believe, "encouraged" other juveniles to do that to some of those other juveniles in their care.

158 SDben5  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:29:06pm

To me, Mr. Johnson appears to be misrepresenting Mr. Donohue's statement.

Mr. Donohue did not say that it all happened in the 1970s. He said the majority of cases were before the year 1970. Mr. Donohue did not say that delinquets and miscreants deserved abuse. He simply points out that the social norm prior to 1970 was for corporal punishment that in today's terms would be considered abuse. And that corporal punishment was more often given to delinquets and miscreants.

159 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:29:10pm

re: #152 MandyManners

Oh, shut the fuck up, Walter.

You mean they were Catholics? I'm confused.

160 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:30:05pm

re: #89 Racer X

LeBron James is a witch.

I suspect I'm the only person in the country who does not know who that is.

161 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:30:08pm

re: #158 SDben5

Have you read the report itself?

162 Egregious Philbin  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:30:11pm

re: #152 MandyManners

Oh, shut the fuck up, Walter.

I thought it was Walter that said "Shut the fuck up, Donny"

163 LwoodPDowd  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:30:21pm
Moreover, one-third of the cases involved “inappropriate fondling and contact.” None of this is defensible, but none of it qualifies as rape.

I wouldn't suggest getting babysitter recommendations from Bill.

164 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:30:26pm

re: #109 Dad O' Blondes

I don't know who you are, but your next Guinness is on me!

165 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:30:27pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

The effects on the victims are the same.

Look, I'm not trying to get the Church or Donohue or anybody off the hook.

I think there ought to be more people hanging there, and some good, well-meaning Americans need to pinch themselves hard and ask what is being done on a daily basis in our names. And swept under the carpet.

I don't think we're talking about the effects. We're talking about the culpability, taking responsibility. And for such a man like Donahue to blow this off is inconceivable. If any Governor of any state in which such allegations were brought did the same thing, I'd be just as upset about it.

166 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:31:46pm

This guy's little essay is actually creeping me out worse than the Commission's (horrific) report, because at least the reported abuse seems to have waned decades ago.

But here comes Donohue, serving up a fresh-baked slice of crazy pie. I mean for heaven's sake -- literally, for heaven's sake -- he titles the thing, "HYSTERIA OVER IRISH CLERGY ABUSE." [His caps.]

If we don't uncork a little hysteria over child abuse, what on earth are we saving it for?

167 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:31:50pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

The effects on the victims are the same.

Look, I'm not trying to get the Church or Donohue or anybody off the hook.

I think there ought to be more people hanging there, and some good, well-meaning Americans need to pinch themselves hard and ask what is being done on a daily basis in our names. And swept under the carpet.

Fuck other people doing stuff - YOU do it! Dammit, I do it! You do it! Don't tell us that AMERICANS need to do it. Doing it starts with you. You and you and you.

168 LwoodPDowd  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:31:52pm

re: #160 Catttt

I suspect I'm the only person in the country who does not know who that is.

how do you know everyone else knows who it is, if you don't know who it is?

169 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:31:55pm

re: #156 The Shadow Do

Van Gundy is ridiculous. How would you like to sit next to his smelly armpits at a game. why is he coaching a major league team?

Mic'd during a time out: Ok, play some defense. We need to play some defense! And make some shots! (all said very passionately).

Uh, dude. That smelly coach came this close to putting the Cavs down 0-2.

170 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:32:08pm

re: #159 Walter L. Newton

You mean they were Catholics? I'm confused.

SMACK!

171 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:32:22pm

re: #97 slokat

Hmm. I'm not involved in any of that, are you?

/no sarcasm - just think that you are derailing a legitimate issue.

It may be uncomfortable, but I don't see how raising the question in any sense derails the discussion. Unless you want to use the Irish report as an excuse to say "well it's a damn good thing they dealt with that" and shut your eyes to what may be going on a few miles down the road from where you live.

Abuse is abuse.

172 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:32:36pm

re: #158 SDben5


Who determined which kid was a deliquent or miscreant? Maybe their tormenters?

173 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:33:16pm

re: #168 LwoodPDowd

how do you know everyone else knows who it is, if you don't know who it is?

All the high five replies.

174 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:33:29pm

re: #113 coquimbojoe

Amen and amen!

175 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:33:38pm

re: #158 SDben5

These are excuses for this behavior. You don't see that? Why didn't he acknowledge the horror of the abuse, then and now, make a statement that it will never happen again and that all violators will be prosecuted. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

176 Capitalist Tool  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:33:41pm

Do unto others as you would have done unto you, because it will be done unto you...

177 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:33:43pm

re: #158 SDben5

I wondered how long it would take for someone to show up making excuses for this.

178 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:34:14pm

re: #156 The Shadow Do

Van Gundy is ridiculous. How would you like to sit next to his smelly armpits at a game. why is he coaching a major league team?

Mic'd during a time out: Ok, play some defense. We need to play some defense! And make some shots! (all said very passionately).

How are you? I've made alot of posts about Ball..
So let's say you have 100 million dollars of athletes at the bench during a time out.. They pay you 4 million dollars a year and the best you got is we need more rebounds? I missed my calling...

179 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:35:01pm

This goes out to all the people I know who have been official or unofficial foster parents. To all the people who have given a warm, safe home to children who needed it...Thank you.

180 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:35:25pm

re: #157 realwest

Sorry for any confusion Cato - I want an investigation into ALL OF IT. Yes, the "officials" in our secular institutions need to be investigated for their personal roles in juvenile abuse, but they also, I believe, "encouraged" other juveniles to do that to some of those other juveniles in their care.

I agree. Every abusive system co-opts a certain number of the abused into the ranks of the abusers. It serves many purposes, practical and psychological.

181 AndyMacOP  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:35:51pm

re: #23 MandyManners

How long will Rome ignore this?

This is no longer happening, so I highly doubt they ignored this, but they just did not respond the way we want them to right now? Pope John Paul II said many things about such situations during his papacy that you will never read about. For a better understanding of the Church, it would be helpful to know that the Pope is the 1st among equals or the Servant of the Servants of God. Subsidiarity is the mode in which the Church operates. The Irish Bishops are the ones who hold the most responsibility in this situation. The pope is not an absolute dictator and has no authority to banish anyone without due process through proper channels, beginning with the local Church authorities.

182 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:36:06pm

re: #158 SDben5

To me, Mr. Johnson appears to be misrepresenting Mr. Donohue's statement.

Mr. Donohue did not say that it all happened in the 1970s. He said the majority of cases were before the year 1970. Mr. Donohue did not say that delinquets and miscreants deserved abuse. He simply points out that the social norm prior to 1970 was for corporal punishment that in today's terms would be considered abuse. And that corporal punishment was more often given to delinquets and miscreants.

He also says that fondling and leering at kids in the shower and sloppy kissing and all that are not abusive. You ok with that too?

183 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:36:11pm

re: #158 SDben5

To me, Mr. Johnson appears to be misrepresenting Mr. Donohue's statement.

Mr. Donohue did not say that it all happened in the 1970s. He said the majority of cases were before the year 1970. Mr. Donohue did not say that delinquets and miscreants deserved abuse. He simply points out that the social norm prior to 1970 was for corporal punishment that in today's terms would be considered abuse. And that corporal punishment was more often given to delinquets and miscreants.

Why don't you go fuck off and die?

184 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:36:51pm

re: #166 Cognito

This guy's little essay is actually creeping me out worse than the Commission's (horrific) report, because at least the reported abuse seems to have waned decades ago.

But here comes Donohue, serving up a fresh-baked slice of crazy pie. I mean for heaven's sake -- literally, for heaven's sake -- he titles the thing, "HYSTERIA OVER IRISH CLERGY ABUSE." [His caps.]

If we don't uncork a little hysteria over child abuse, what on earth are we saving it for?

Donohue doesn't want such reports released. He favors what will increase his factions temporal power and opposes those things that will reduce said power. Now who does that remind you of? Here's a hint: Hillary wrote about, and Obama learned and uses his methods. Correct answers get updings.

185 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:36:58pm

re: #129 Gus 802

Bill is currently the President and CEO of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, the nation's largest Catholic civil rights organization. The publisher of the Catholic League journal, Catalyst, Bill is also an adjunct scholar at The Heritage Foundation and serves on the board of directors of the National Association of Scholars and the New York State chapter of NAS.

[emphasis realwest] is precisely why he is at the Heritage Foundation and on the board of directors of the NAS and the NYS chapter of NAS - it's all about political power, real and perceived.
And it is thoroughly disgusting.

186 slokat  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:37:01pm

re: #171 Cato the Elder

So, what have you done about what you claim is going on just down the road from you?

Nothing?

187 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:37:23pm

Alinski

188 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:38:17pm

re: #165 American Sabra

I don't think we're talking about the effects. We're talking about the culpability, taking responsibility. And for such a man like Donahue to blow this off is inconceivable. If any Governor of any state in which such allegations were brought did the same thing, I'd be just as upset about it.

And you would be right. And I'm not trying to exonerate this scumbag.

By the same token, I wouldn't be surprised to see state official doing the same weaseling in a similar situation.

And please read the links I posted. This is not a hypothetical exercise.

189 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:38:21pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

Um...Machiavelli, "The Prince"?

/swag

190 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:38:27pm

SDben5

Karma: -6
(Logged in)
Registered since: Jul 16, 2007 at 6:56 pm
No. of comments posted: 19
No. of links posted: 0

Looks like a possible sleeper.

191 Capitalist Tool  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:38:29pm

It's still Bush's fault.

192 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:39:23pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

I'm sorry Pat, Who is Saul Alinski?

193 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:40:43pm

re: #192 Tarkus289

I'm sorry Pat, Who is Saul Alinski?

A Dirty Fuckin' Communist.

194 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:40:53pm

re: #185 realwest

[emphasis realwest] is precisely why he is at the Heritage Foundation and on the board of directors of the NAS and the NYS chapter of NAS - it's all about political power, real and perceived.
And it is thoroughly disgusting.

Yes. In essence you can say that Bill Donohue councils for policy in other venues beyond the scope of what he represents full time through the Catholic League.

195 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:41:01pm

re: #133 Lynn B.

beyond ugh!

196 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:41:17pm

AndyMacOp -- you approved of that comment?

197 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:42:55pm

Well, I've raised enough questions for one thread. Read my links if you care to. Question my right to raise the issue based on what I may or may not have done about it so far. It is your call.

Good night to all, and pleasant dreams.

198 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:42:59pm

I remember my mom out in front of the church after mass, yelling at the priest. I mean YELLING. Telling him off. And she was right, too, and he knew it (he was a control freak, and she really went off on him).

He gave her his rosary and apologized.

Speaking truth to power - that was my mom.

199 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:43:07pm

re: #187 Tarkus289

Alinski

re: #189 Macker

Um...Machiavelli, "The Prince"?

/swag

You are both correct. Both Nicolo Machiavelli and Saul Alinsky advocated tactics like those enployed by Donohue. The really sick part is that in opposing Alinsky's radical aims, Donohue has come to act and think in Alinsky's terms. As Nietzsche warned:

He who fights with monsters might take care, lest he become a monster.

200 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:43:11pm

re: #192 Tarkus289

I'm sorry Pat, Who is Saul Alinski?

I gotcher' Alinsky right here.

201 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:45:11pm

Good news everyone. I've found Donohue's point:

As for the charge that “Irish Priests” were responsible, some of the abuse was carried out by lay persons, much of it was done by Brothers, and about 12 percent of the abusers were priests (most of whom were not rapists).

Whew! For a moment there I was afraid most of the abusive priests were rapists. Turns out most were rapish, yes, but not rapists.

202 Capitalist Tool  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:45:43pm

Don't know who Bill Donahue is- all I can think of is Phil Donahue.
That makes 2 reasons not to like the guy.

203 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:45:51pm

Cog- making jokes about child abuse and rape isn't cool.

204 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:46:22pm

I wish my grandmother were still here. Grandma was a social worker and a guardian ad litem.

Mr. Donohue--meet my grandmother and her cane. She and the cane would like to have a word with you.

205 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:46:39pm

re: #169 Racer X

Uh, dude. That smelly coach came this close to putting the Cavs down 0-2.

Actually, no. His team did. This guy is a really ungainly caricature of a coach, though that is surely my opinion and not worth much. It is just that I have heard more intelligible direction at the Jr. High level. I guess I don't get it. Seems like a highly paid fan with a real good seat to me.

206 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:46:49pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder
Yes, absolutely spot on comment Cato.

207 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:46:54pm

re: #201 Cognito

Good news everyone. I've found Donohue's point:

Whew! For a moment there I was afraid most of the abusive priests were rapists. Turns out most were rapish, yes, but not rapists.

Don't forget the Sisters of Mercy. They had their fine hand in it too.

Did I mention I've never gotten along with nuns - just ex-nuns?

208 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:47:04pm

re: #203 Sharmuta

Cog- making jokes about child abuse and rape isn't cool.

Not in the least bit.

209 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:47:05pm

re: #203 Sharmuta

Cog- making jokes about child abuse and rape isn't cool.

I've made no jokes about child abuse or rape. I've ridiculed Bill Donohue.

Extremities on the scale of appropriateness.

210 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:47:05pm

re: #155 Catttt

And if parents aren't enough, find friends. Do what you can to tell the truth.

211 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:47:27pm

re: #139 Sharmuta

Shar, OT, but this is interesting. Turns out AtS had enough of reaganite as well. And the DtD guy is at it again.

212 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:47:36pm

re: #188 Cato the Elder

And you would be right. And I'm not trying to exonerate this scumbag.

By the same token, I wouldn't be surprised to see state official doing the same weaseling in a similar situation.

And please read the links I posted. This is not a hypothetical exercise.

I quoted a similar circimstance on the other thread about this issue about the Marianna, Florida Boy's School and allegations of abuse. A number of men, about the same age as some of these men, 60's and 70's brought suit against the state for beatings and rape. They assumed some of the boys had been beaten to death, but the investigation didn't reveal that. Even so, the investigation is continuing for other abuse charges.

There are also watchdog groups in the states that keep track of these things. If you chose to put your child into one of these "boot camps" or boarding schools, you can find their histories. Here is one.

There is bad and worse. Denial from the Catholic Church is worse IMO, as it would be from any religious institution.

213 dapperdave  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:47:41pm

It's kinda funny that this Bill Donahue fella looks a lot like Archie Bunker...or is it just me?

214 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:47:54pm

re: #178 HoosierHoops

How are you? I've made alot of posts about Ball..
So let's say you have 100 million dollars of athletes at the bench during a time out.. They pay you 4 million dollars a year and the best you got is we need more rebounds? I missed my calling...

LOL

215 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:48:28pm

re: #201 Cognito

Fuck you.

216 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:48:30pm

re: #205 The Shadow Do

Actually, no. His team did. This guy is a really ungainly caricature of a coach, though that is surely my opinion and not worth much. It is just that I have heard more intelligible direction at the Jr. High level. I guess I don't get it. Seems like a highly paid fan with a real good seat to me.

You'd be wrong. Van Gundy is a good coach.

217 jcm  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:48:39pm

That seems to be the pattern of the Catholic Church.

Deny, minimize, deflect.

Just once I'd like the Church to step up an own something, and deal with it head on.

218 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:49:04pm

re: #215 MandyManners

Whatever.

219 Lynn B.  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:49:22pm

re: #142 Catttt

Anal sex? Where the heck did that come from? Wait - don't answer that.

Yeah, well ... Donahue's full response to a question by PB about Mel Gibson's "Passion" (same link)

WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: I spoke to Mel a couple of weeks ago about this. And I don‘t think it really matters a whole lot to him. It certainly doesn‘t matter to me. We‘ve already won.
Who really cares what Hollywood thinks? All these hacks come out there. Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It‘s not a secret, OK? And I‘m not afraid to say it. That‘s why they hate this movie. It‘s about Jesus Christ, and it‘s about truth. It‘s about the messiah.

Hollywood likes anal sex. They like to see the public square without nativity scenes. I like families. I like children. They like abortions.

220 MandyManners  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:49:32pm

re: #209 Cognito

I've made no jokes about child abuse or rape. I've ridiculed Bill Donohue.

Extremities on the scale of appropriateness.

You god-damn lying motherfucker.

221 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:49:51pm

re: #220 MandyManners

You god-damn lying motherfucker.

Whatever x 2.

222 Honorary Yooper  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:49:51pm

re: #213 dapperdave

It's kinda funny that this Bill Donahue fella looks a lot like Archie Bunker...or is it just me?

He acts a lot like Archie Bunker as well. I do wish Donohue would quit speaking for the rest of us. I don't really like the man very much. OK, I think he's a Class A asshole, but this is beyond the pale, even for him.

223 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:49:59pm

re: #216 Racer X

You'd be wrong. Van Gundy is a good coach.


Dwight Howard makes him better.

224 slokat  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:50:07pm

re: #217 jcm

Last time they tried to deal with something head on they had a reformation...


/only partially

225 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:50:14pm

7.139 As indicated, the majority of sexual abuse reported was perpetrated within the Schools by religious staff with 151 (65%) of all those identified as sexually abusive being male religious staff, 139 Brothers and 12 priests. Altogether 180 religious and lay staff within the Schools were identified as sexually abusive.
[Link: www.childabusecommission.com...]

226 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:51:11pm

re: #211 Honorary Yooper

Shar, OT, but this is interesting. Turns out AtS had enough of reaganite as well. And the DtD guy is at it again.

Heh!

227 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:51:12pm

re#219 Lynn B.

Ewww.

He's kinda nosing into people's personal business there. Nosy fella. I don't like him.

228 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:51:33pm

re: #158 SDben5

It'd be great if he actually said that. But he didn't. Bill Donohue ended up blaming the victims, in his politically careful way. That's the way of avoidance; the way of the devil, if you ask me.

229 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:51:34pm

re: #225 jaunte

Pretty horrifying.

230 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:52:07pm

re: #220 MandyManners

You god-damn lying motherfucker.

Mandy, would you please cut Cognito some slack. The line was questionable, but it doesn't justify cursing him out like that.

231 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:52:31pm

re: #158 SDben5
Sorry there cowboy - but I was a juvenile before 1970; hell I was an adult before 1970 and your

He simply points out that the social norm prior to 1970 was for corporal punishment that in today's terms would be considered abuse.

is absolute, total and contemptible bullshit. That is NOT TRUE.

232 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:52:47pm

re: #223 BignJames

Dwight Howard makes him better.

LOL!

True. He has good with the Heat too. Riley stepping in and dumping him was not right. And I really like Pat Riley.

But what do I know? I'm just a stupid ignorant Laker fan.

;-)

233 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:53:18pm

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

I don't really see the questionability, even. I've needled Donohue and the absurdity of his assertions with every tool I can find at hand. And he deserves worse.

234 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:53:48pm

PIFW

235 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:53:50pm

re: #219 Lynn B.

Everyone else managed to like or hate that flick without once mentioning anal sex. That is really icky that he mentioned it in that context. Maybe he's got issues.

236 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:54:27pm

re: #216 Racer X

You'd be wrong. Van Gundy is a good coach.

Are you serious? My coach in 7th grade was Sister Mary Roberts..
She mades Van Gundy look like a genius..Please do not come here and make it look like he is a good coach..He fucking sucks as a coach..

237 abolitionist  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:54:48pm

About 15(?) years ago, there was a fictional story on the Lifetime cable channel about a Catholic priest who was a serial pedophile in New England, iirc. Can't recall the title. He favored young boys. Whenever any complaints were brought, or investigations started, his superiors would simply keep shuffling him from one parrish to another. When the time came that such tactics no longer worked, the priest tried to justify his behaviour by arguing that this behaviour was a blessed expression of G*d's love.

I think the movie ending was, um, ambiguous.

238 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:54:53pm

I don't think Donohue is the right spokesman for this issue. The sexual issues are horrifying, but the physical abuse is more complicated.

Has anyone seen the Movie Madea Family Reunion? I saw it for the first time 2 weeks ago, and about fell off the bed. The movie promotes and exalts what's known as "old school" discipline. Madea is handed a foster girl to raise, and begins by beating her, hitting her repeatedly about the head and upper body, on the way home in the car, when the girl mouths off. Madea later beats her repeatedly with a belt when she skips school. But the message is: the way to get kids to be respectful and obedient is to beat them. The girl becomes the model student after the beating.

I mention this because "Old school" was commonly practiced in the general western culture through most of last century. While finishing my masters degree our african-American teacher recommended this black parenting book for us to read that described how what appears to be an excessive level of physical abuse of children in the black community - is really just this "old school" discipline and NOT really abuse - so claims the author. I completely disagree that it's not abuse, and had forgotten about this reference until I saw the Madea movie.

I found this reference ....

Old School Discipline - article by Gregory Lewis

In an all black school, teachers whipped you for all kinds of stuff: fighting, not making perfect scores, coming to school not groomed, not doing your homework, and for breaking bad in the classroom, like sassing a teacher.

Bootsy Little once gave Mr. Tucker the finger. She only did it once because Tuck (what we called him behind his back) tore Bootsy's behind up with his strap. We were in the sixth grade. She cried and some of us cried for her. Even boys.

My fourth grade teacher Miss Hill had a paddle she called "Mr. Do Right." She'd say things like "if you don't act right, you're going to get Mr. Do Right."

I avoided Mr. Do Right and survived Church Street School. Tuck and Hepler tagged my hands and behind for not getting 100 on tests and once for punching Jerry Lee Richardson. Also got the strap for taking licks for Trilby Ball. She was so cute and so little. It just didn’t seem right for her to get strapped.

239 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:55:04pm

re: #201 Cognito

Good news everyone. I've found Donohue's point:

Whew! For a moment there I was afraid most of the abusive priests were rapists. Turns out most were rapish, yes, but not rapists.

(Pssst... some people can't recognize sarcasm. I got you.)

240 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:55:47pm

re: #236 HoosierHoops

Are you serious? My coach in 7th grade was Sister Mary Roberts..
She mades Van Gundy look like a genius..Please do not come here and make it look like he is a good coach..He fucking sucks as a coach..

Really?

Wow. I thought you knew hoops better than that.

241 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:55:53pm

re: #239 American Sabra

This isn't fodder for fucking sarcasm.

242 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:56:41pm

re: #239 American Sabra

Thanks. Glad it showed through, even if not as clearly as I expected.

243 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:56:41pm

re: #221 Cognito

Whatever x 2.

I did get that you were doing the biting sarcasm thing.

244 SDben5  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:56:57pm

My comment was about Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation not about the abuse. In no way did my comment make any excuses for the abuse nor did my comment make any excuses for Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation. Cattt also misrepresents Mr. Donohue's statement with her assertion that Mr. Donohue says that fondling and leering at kids in the shower and sloppy kissing and all that are not abusive.

No, Miss Mandymanners, I will not go fuck off and die.

245 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:56:58pm

re: #240 Racer X

Really?

Wow. I thought you knew hoops better than that.

Ah heck.I was just teasing you..After a game I get jacked up..I'm sorry
Hope today finds you well

246 slokat  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:56:59pm

re: #233 Cognito

It would work better if he were here participating - since not, it doesn't all appear as focused as you might probably perceive it to be...

/2cents

247 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:57:22pm

re: #179 EmmmieG
And without detracting from or disrespecting any of those good people, I think it's only right to point out that LGFer jcm is one of those fine human beings
who is a Foster Parent. Many times over.

248 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:57:47pm

re: #241 Sharmuta

This isn't fodder for fucking sarcasm.

Of course it is. William Donohue and his bizarre, self-defeating essay deserve sarcasm and everything else that sticks to it.

249 AndyMacOP  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:57:48pm

re: #190 Dark_Falcon

SDben5

Karma: -6
(Logged in)
Registered since: Jul 16, 2007 at 6:56 pm
No. of comments posted: 19
No. of links posted: 0

Looks like a possible sleeper.

1) I refuse to defend the abuse of children in any time or place.
2) I do understand that people take great offense at the tone and content of Donohue's response. But, as pointed out by SDben5, he does not say that "it all happened in the 1970s" as Charles notes in his original entry above.
3) Trying to weed out alleged sleepers because they do not agree with every post or comment and do not have the requisite number of comments is comical at best and tyrannical at worst.
4) Sorry Sharmuta, I do not agree with your use of language, it's just my thing. Besides, I think it's kind of funny that some here have noted the lack of charity by Donohue, and failed to call poster here on the same standard.

250 Lynn B.  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:58:40pm

re: #227 Catttt

Yeah. I found my response back to Pam (this was all by email so I don't have a link).

I know. I listened. I wasn't talking about sex or Hollywood, either. I was talking about antisemitism. I was talking about "the Jews control..."

Your argument is a good one, Pamela. I've used it myself from time to time. But I draw the line at making alliances with flaming antisemites.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying your position.

She said she'd "investigate" but that was the last I heard of it.

251 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:58:44pm

re: #244 SDben5

My comment was about Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation not about the abuse. In no way did my comment make any excuses for the abuse nor did my comment make any excuses for Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation. Cattt also misrepresents Mr. Donohue's statement with her assertion that Mr. Donohue says that fondling and leering at kids in the shower and sloppy kissing and all that are not abusive.

No, Miss Mandymanners, I will not go fuck off and die.

You won't, but you should.

GAZE

252 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:58:51pm

re: #244 SDben5

My comment was about Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation not about the abuse. In no way did my comment make any excuses for the abuse nor did my comment make any excuses for Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation. Cattt also misrepresents Mr. Donohue's statement with her assertion that Mr. Donohue says that fondling and leering at kids in the shower and sloppy kissing and all that are not abusive.

No, Miss Mandymanners, I will not go fuck off and die.

Charles nor Cattt are misrepresenting this article by Donohue. You though, evidently have NO critical thinking skills, and I would even question your basic reading skills too.

253 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:58:53pm

re: #242 Cognito

Thanks. Glad it showed through, even if not as clearly as I expected.

You just rub some people the wrong way, hon. I do think your heart is in the right place, and that is the important thing, isn't it? Yes.

254 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:59:03pm

re: #245 HoosierHoops

Ah heck.I was just teasing you..After a game I get jacked up..I'm sorry
Hope today finds you well

No worries. Shoulda seen me after yesterdays game. Denver is playing awesome defense. I'ma scared.

255 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:59:07pm

re: #246 slokat

Gotta echo that, Cogs. I caught your sarc, but many of us have been at odds with you from time to time, so a tag might sometimes be necessary.

Notice, I'm making an effort to be nice to you this year.

256 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:59:29pm

re: #252 Walter L. Newton

Charles nor Cattt are misrepresenting this article by Donohue. You though, evidently have NO critical thinking skills, and I would even question your basic reading skills too.

Damned by faint nonpraise.

257 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:00:13pm

re: #255 Noam Sayin'

Gotta echo that, Cogs. I caught your sarc, but many of us have been at odds with you from time to time, so a tag might sometimes be necessary.

Notice, I'm making an effort to be nice to you this year.

Gonna be a good year, Noam.

258 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:00:17pm

re: #247 realwest

There he is...


*sneak*

*Jump*

...

*tackle*

Howya doin', real?

259 Walter L. Newton  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:00:28pm

re: #256 Catttt

Damned by faint nonpraise.

I don't understand your response. I was supporting Charles and you. Not damning you.

260 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:01:08pm

re: #244 SDben5

Donohue's cheap deflections don't improve with your help.
"Hardly draconian" is not the impression you are left with after reading the report.

261 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:01:17pm

re: #216 Racer X

You'd be wrong. Van Gundy is a good coach.

I really do wish the best for the Cavaliers in this latest tussle. I think LeBron is the best player if have seen in quite a while - and he is just now developing! Van Gundy as coach is a joke. Put James with Brown or Jackson, or some others and then see what is what. My humble opinion of course.

Go Cavs!

262 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:01:18pm

re: #247 realwest

And without detracting from or disrespecting any of those good people, I think it's only right to point out that LGFer jcm is one of those fine human beings
who is a Foster Parent. Many times over.

Then hat's off to him.

263 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:02:22pm

re: #238 DistantThunder

I'm not sure what your point is. You're talking about corporal punishment? Can people distinguish between a spank on the bottom and beating the holy crap outa your kid? Didn't Bill Cosby do a skit (rather hilarious) about his mother slinging a shoe at him?

We can discuss proper ways to discipline a child, whether any corporal punishment is justified and certainly many parents today do not hit at all, but really, that seems to be far outside this article.

264 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:02:28pm

re: #253 Catttt

You just rub some people the wrong way, hon. I do think your heart is in the right place, and that is the important thing, isn't it? Yes.

My heart is right where it's supposed to be: In a shoebox, sealed in a vault, in the corner of a locked room, chiseled into stone at the bottom a mile-deep coal shaft.

If you hear otherwise, you let me know, lady.

265 Capitalist Tool  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:02:53pm

re: #244 SDben5

My comment was about Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation not about the abuse. In no way did my comment make any excuses for the abuse nor did my comment make any excuses for Mr. Johnson's perceived misrepresentation. Cattt also misrepresents Mr. Donohue's statement with her assertion that Mr. Donohue says that fondling and leering at kids in the shower and sloppy kissing and all that are not abusive.

No, Miss Mandymanners, I will not go fuck off and die.


Hey. That was one of my favorite lines when I was a soldier back in the early 70's. Bless U Mandy for reminding me of it.
Let me repeat...

Fuck Off and Die.

266 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:03:11pm

re: #241 Sharmuta

This isn't fodder for fucking sarcasm.

I think Cognito made it abundantly clear that the priest was making ridiculous excuses for his behavior.

267 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:03:46pm

re: #249 AndyMacOP

I wondered if it might not have been my language. But knowing a number of survivors of such things as "being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower" and seeing it made light of, I feel no need to restrain myself (and yet I still am!). These things are child abuse, Andy. I don't care about when or who at this point. Anyone who could say people don't consider this abuse are wrong. I, for one, most certainly do think of these things when I hear "child abuse".

268 FemNaziBitch  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:04:23pm

Hey Night Lizards! It was another glorious day in Near Iowa.

Having grown-up in the RC Church and attended Catholic School, grades 1-8, I know the "fear and guilt" tactics that were used on me. I have no doubt the report is true and that children were mistreated terribly in a country in which the Church had no oversight. The power hungry and truly evil have a free run in situations like that. Such individuals are so low, they can only feel powerful when they can dominate --in this case, children. I also have no doubt they are rotting in the 10th circle of Hell as I type.

How are you-all?

269 jcm  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:04:36pm

re: #247 realwest

And without detracting from or disrespecting any of those good people, I think it's only right to point out that LGFer jcm is one of those fine human beings
who is a Foster Parent. Many times over.

*blush*

Evening Real!

270 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:05:34pm

re: #248 Cognito

Of course it is. William Donohue and his bizarre, self-defeating essay deserve sarcasm and everything else that sticks to it.

Agreed. The man is a asshole who deserves to get mocked.

271 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:05:48pm

Here's another anecdote from the report; this is what Donohue says is "hardly draconian."

7.101 Twelve (12) watchmen were identified by 30 witnesses as physically abusive. The night watchmen were employed to supervise the dormitories during the night and were reported to attend to residents who wet their bed. The main reports of physical abuse by night watchmen occurred in that context.

This man had the job of walking up and down the dormitory all night. One night I woke up and this torch was shining in my face. ... He told me to get up and he took the walking stick and he gave me 10 whacks on one hand and then he gave me 10 more. He left me standing there while he did his rounds and then he came back and he gave me 10 more, I was shaking. I wet myself ...distressed.... He went around again and he came back again, at this time I don’t know what to do, I am shaking. I wet the floor, he gave me 10 more on each hand. I got 60 whacks of a cane, a little boy for waking up when a torch was shone on his face. Then he said “go back to bed”. I didn’t know what to do, I cried, totally bemused at this savagery. That was the start of 4 years, night after night after night he would walk around, I would pray “don’t stop, O God please don’t stop. If I’m seen to be awake what will I get?” I saw him hit many boys. One time when he was walking around the dormitory, I could hear him and I ...(soiled)... myself, now how frightened can you get?

272 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:06:02pm

re: #261 The Shadow Do

I really do wish the best for the Cavaliers in this latest tussle. I think LeBron is the best player if have seen in quite a while - and he is just now developing! Van Gundy as coach is a joke. Put James with Brown or Jackson, or some others and then see what is what. My humble opinion of course.

Go Cavs!

I'm with you on LeBron - dude is crazy good. However I want no part of Orlando in the finals - they beat us 2-0 in regular season.

273 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:06:24pm

re: #257 Cognito

It's a promise, bro. I respect your steadfast stance on your positions, but I get peeved, sometimes, at the way you debate. I will always call you on that, but when you present a cogent argument, I'll honor that with faithful debate.

... and maybe not so quick to call you an asshole.

274 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:06:24pm

re: #254 Racer X

No worries. Shoulda seen me after yesterdays game. Denver is playing awesome defense. I'ma scared.

I think both series may go 7 games....if Denver's bigs will crash the boards, LA may be in trouble. Karl needs to give the Lithuanian kid more minutes.

275 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:06:29pm

re: #261 The Shadow Do

I really do wish the best for the Cavaliers in this latest tussle. I think LeBron is the best player if have seen in quite a while - and he is just now developing! Van Gundy as coach is a joke. Put James with Brown or Jackson, or some others and then see what is what. My humble opinion of course.

Go Cavs!

Can you imagine dropping in the lane against a guy 6'8" with 4.4 speed at full speed? King James is a monster on the court..
He is a stud

276 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:07:28pm

re: #211 Honorary Yooper
Hey HY! I've never been over to AtS - you said that
"Turns out AtS had enough of reaganite as well."
Do you have a link for that by any chance?

277 Irenicum  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:07:43pm

re: #180 Cato the Elder

It's a sad reality that that those who participate in abuse end up bringing others into the cycle. Just look at porn. The cycle of abuse is natural, just like the cycle of health. Like creates like.

278 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:07:55pm

re: #271 jaunte

...again, horrifying.

279 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:08:10pm

Those of you that think this is such great fodder for humor and wise cracks-

Ever see an iron burn on a little girl's leg? Ever see a little girl get grabbed by her hair and slammed into a wall? Ever watch a child be tortured with mental and emotional manipulation? Ever meet a hungry child without a proper coat? Ever care for a baby who was left in his crib by his mother for periods so long that he's developmentally challenged?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

280 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:09:00pm

re: #274 BignJames

I think both series may go 7 games....if Denver's bigs will crash the boards, LA may be in trouble. Karl needs to give the Lithuanian kid more minutes.

7 games both series would be great!

Lakers vs. Cavs in the finals.

281 Crazed Rabbit  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:09:06pm

So sorry to interrupt the group hate here, but let's get some things straight.

1) He did not brush off the report. He only sought to put some of the hysteria in perspective, pointing out that the Reuters report was sensational. When did Reuters suddenly become so free of bias? He is concerned that the report demeans the real suffering went through by those who were raped by comparing it to getting a slap.

2) He obviously didn't say it all happened in the 1970s. I mean, not only is that taken out of context, but it wasn't even what he said, which was that 82% of the incidents took place before 1970. And he said that in relation to the allegations of physical abuse and lack of emotional attachment; because corporal punishment was more common back then and the 'touchy-feely' revolution hadn't taken over parenting. That doesn't excuse the physical abuse, it puts it in perspective; it happened in a different era with different social values. It also means the vast majority of the wrongdoing stopped happening almost four decades ago.

3) Nor does he say the abused deserved it. He pointed out corporal punishment was more frequent, especially when dealing with what we'd call juvenile delinquents.

4) Nor does he say all those abused were delinquents.

5) He also points out that only 1 in 8 offenders were Priests, so the Reuters headline is again misleading.

6) He correctly points out that the article throws in the numbers of all those not sexually assaulted while throwing around the term abuse - which creates the impression of the abuse being much more wide spread than it is.

Finally -
#15 You are reading it wrong. 30k kids passed through. The number of incidents is only a fraction of that. I'm not sure if the 12% is out of all the incidents or just the sexual-related ones, but it certainly isn't out of 30k kids.

To those claiming 'slapping' is abuse - do you report parents you see spanking their children to child protection services? Sheesh.

To finish, these abuse are of course disgusting. Those responsible must be punished. But I wrote this so that the truth of the matter would come out, and that these real evils done would not be overshadowed by fantastic (as in fantasy) allegations about the level of abuses.

Oh - one final thing. It is the Irish government, not the Church (who's clergy are saying the guilty should be punished before the law), that is refusing to prosecute these crimes.

CR

282 SDben5  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:09:28pm

The language in mr. donohue's statement was plain and one should not read more or less into it than what it does say. I do believe that corporal punishment was the norm of society prior to 1970. Corporal punishment is spanking. I went to public grade school in the 1970s and my school had a paddle and kids who misbehaved were spanked. Most men that I know over the age of 40 were spanked by their parents when growing up. Now, I am not making excuses for the abuse or saying any abuse that happened should be considered the same as disciplinary spanking.

283 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:09:57pm

re: #257 Cognito

Gonna be a good year, Noam.

Ok everyone, time for a chorus of........re: #264 Cognito

My heart is right where it's supposed to be: In a shoebox, sealed in a vault, in the corner of a locked room, chiseled into stone at the bottom a mile-deep coal shaft.

If you hear otherwise, you let me know, lady.

You can't fool me. I read all Raymond Chandler's books. :D

284 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:10:04pm

Hi RW,

It has been a while since I have said hello.

Are you and your mother doing well this holiday weekend?

285 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:11:00pm

Nice music, and then I have to hit the hay.

286 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:11:12pm

re: #280 Racer X

7 games both series would be great!

Lakers vs. Cavs in the finals.


They're already hyping the LeBron-Kobie match up.

287 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:11:18pm

re: #271 jaunte

Here's another anecdote from the report; this is what Donohue says is "hardly draconian."

7.101 Twelve (12) watchmen were identified by 30 witnesses as physically abusive. The night watchmen were employed to supervise the dormitories during the night and were reported to attend to residents who wet their bed. The main reports of physical abuse by night watchmen occurred in that context.

This man had the job of walking up and down the dormitory all night. One night I woke up and this torch was shining in my face. ... He told me to get up and he took the walking stick and he gave me 10 whacks on one hand and then he gave me 10 more. He left me standing there while he did his rounds and then he came back and he gave me 10 more, I was shaking. I wet myself ...distressed.... He went around again and he came back again, at this time I don’t know what to do, I am shaking. I wet the floor, he gave me 10 more on each hand. I got 60 whacks of a cane, a little boy for waking up when a torch was shone on his face. Then he said “go back to bed”. I didn’t know what to do, I cried, totally bemused at this savagery. That was the start of 4 years, night after night after night he would walk around, I would pray “don’t stop, O God please don’t stop. If I’m seen to be awake what will I get?” I saw him hit many boys. One time when he was walking around the dormitory, I could hear him and I ...(soiled)... myself, now how frightened can you get?

Rotten, just rotten.

288 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:11:26pm

re: #279 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, no one has made wisecracks about child abuse, that I've seen. No one. What I have done -- and I'll only speak for me, here -- is mock Donohue by ridiculing him and highlighting the absurd nature of his report. The two aren't to be confused.

289 SDben5  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:12:00pm

re: #281 Crazed Rabbit

well said.

290 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:12:49pm

re: #286 BignJames

They're already hyping the LeBron-Kobie match up.

I love it! the 2 greatest ballers of modern history....

291 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:12:57pm

Chapter 13
Special needs schools and residential services

Description of sexual abuse

13.44The forms of sexual abuse reported by the 36 witnesses included voyeurism, inappropriate fondling, mutual masturbation, oral/genital contact, penetration with objects, kissing, vaginal and anal rape. Eleven (11) witnesses, nine of whom were male, reported being raped. With one exception witnesses reported being raped many times, in some instances on a regular basis for periods up to five years.

13.45Witnesses reported that sexual abuse occurred in private and was most often perpetrated by specific individuals over a period of time. Witnesses from three facilities described being taken from their beds at night by male religious staff and being sexually abused in the staff members’ bedrooms. They reported being raped, fondled and molested, and some described being unable to walk following such episodes of abuse. Other witnesses reported being sexually abused by staff members while engaged in routine activity or while entrusted to their care.

There was another Brother, he brought me into his room I didn’t like it, he did things, he hurt me. I was crying ... it was at night time, he made me do things.... He did things to me ... he hurt me. Sometimes he took me into his room, he slept in a room on his own off the dormitory. ... I didn’t like that going on. He was nice to me after it ...(anal rape)....


I was sexually abused by ...named lay ancillary worker... at 13 or 14 years of age, a few times. He agreed to bring me home to where I came from for a visit. I knew him so well. He started to touch me in my private parts and kissed me. He stopped in a lane on the way home ...distressed.... It’s all bad.

292 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:13:43pm

re: #281 Crazed Rabbit

re: #282 SDben5

[Dark_Falcon grabs both apologists and bangs their head together repeatedly to try to knock the crazy out of their skills]

293 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:14:02pm

re: #286 BignJames

They're already hyping the LeBron-Kobie match up.

Well, really, who would watch Denver / Orlando? (OK I would but the ratings would be way down)

294 pingjockey  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:14:25pm

re: #290 HoosierHoops

So MJ, Larry, Magic, etc...are OLD history?

295 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:14:41pm

re: #289 SDben5

Aw, the troll found a friend.

296 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:15:01pm

re: #281 Crazed Rabbit

Group hate? Pathetic.
Are you reading the report? Saying that only 1 in 8 abusers was a priest is a pretty weak excuse. Who was responsible for the institution?

297 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:15:20pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

re: #282 SDben5

[Dark_Falcon grabs both apologists and bangs their head together repeatedly to try to knock the crazy out of their skills]

Something tells me they're related...

298 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:15:57pm

The dichotomy of child abuse and basketball is quite strange.

/ I am not complaining, just a little unusual.

299 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:16:22pm

re: #258 Noam Sayin'
*ouch*! Damnit NOAM - how many times do I have to tell you to stop with the tackling and stick to the noogies?!?
IIIRC, you made a comment last week that you'd been in touch with Sage - could you e-mail me about it please?

300 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:16:27pm

re: #294 pingjockey

So MJ, Larry, Magic, etc...are OLD history?

Hey ping! Hope today finds you well..
Yup..those guys are old school...

301 pingjockey  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:16:41pm

re: #297 Noam Sayin'
IMO, the gene pool where trolls spring from is very shallow.

302 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:16:47pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

re: #282 SDben5

[Dark_Falcon grabs both apologists and bangs their head together repeatedly to try to knock the crazy out of their skills]

Is it ok to laugh at that, or will they tell me to go fuck off?

303 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:16:57pm

re: #275 HoosierHoops

Can you imagine dropping in the lane against a guy 6'8" with 4.4 speed at full speed? King James is a monster on the court..
He is a stud

Yes

304 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:17:02pm

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

I don't understand your response. I was supporting Charles and you. Not damning you.

I know - I meant what's it's name. I was obscure. Sorry about that, and thanks.

Time for bed! /yawns

305 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:17:26pm

re: #281 Crazed Rabbit

He is concerned that the report demeans the real suffering went through by those who were raped by comparing it to getting a slap.

Slapping children is not okay.

306 AndyMacOP  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:17:30pm

re: #279 Sharmuta

Those of you that think this is such great fodder for humor and wise cracks-

Ever see an iron burn on a little girl's leg? Ever see a little girl get grabbed by her hair and slammed into a wall? Ever watch a child be tortured with mental and emotional manipulation? Ever meet a hungry child without a proper coat? Ever care for a baby who was left in his crib by his mother for periods so long that he's developmentally challenged?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

And here is the even saddest part: While the Magdalene Laundries and the abuse mills of the Irish Catholic Church are a thing of the past, the physical, emotional and sexual abuse of children continues on in America and all other developed countries. As a priest and a school teacher I deal with this everyday and will for the rest of my life. I am more than willing to do this.

Commenting on blogs is not helping this horrifying situation, so it's off to prayer and work I go.

307 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:17:33pm

re: #298 Tarkus289

The dichotomy of child abuse and basketball is quite strange.

/ I am not complaining, just a little unusual.

Typical. There is definitely plenty of cross-talk here.

308 pingjockey  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:18:01pm

re: #300 HoosierHoops
OMG! That means .....I'm 50! Holy shit!

309 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:18:06pm

re: #263 American Sabra

I'm not sure what your point is. You're talking about corporal punishment? Can people distinguish between a spank on the bottom and beating the holy crap outa your kid? Didn't Bill Cosby do a skit (rather hilarious) about his mother slinging a shoe at him?

We can discuss proper ways to discipline a child, whether any corporal punishment is justified and certainly many parents today do not hit at all, but really, that seems to be far outside this article.

Standards of acceptability have drastically changed. What I saw in the movie Madea was not corporeal punishment but abuse done in anger- and the movie's point was that it was acceptable, and produces good results, creating respectful responsible children. It used to be a very common attitude in dealing with children in institutional settings. It was damaging then, it is damaging now - but I think people back in the day, just like in the movie, - thought it was their responsibility to manage children using these methods.

I've seen this reprinted on several AFrican American forums and sights -and it reflects the attitude championed in the Madea movie:

Old School Black Mothers

I was sitting around this afternoon talking with Pops about my grandmother and mother and he kind of ran this little story down to me.About our beautiful black queens that we call mothers and grandmothers.

There used to be a time when black children were the best behaved children in the world. Now look at them.Time out my foot!

1) Have you ever been called downstairs,from upstairs or the back of the house,or from the front of the house to get the remote,change the channel,or fix her a glass of ice water?

2) Have you ever been hit with an extension cord,a switch,or the nearest shoe?

3)Have you ever had to pick your own switch off the tree and she sent you back because the one you picked was to small?

4)Have you ever been burned on the ear by a straightening comb?

5) Have you ever been hit in the head or knuckles with a comb or hair brush?

6) Have you ever been told to "Shut Up or I'll give you something!To cry about while she beats you with a belt - pronouncing every syllable --- "Did-n't---I---tell---you---not---to-do---!---That---no---more?"

7)Your ponytails or plaits were so tight, you got those little bumps around your scalp.

8)You were scared to go home when you got a bad report card.

9)Alcohol,peroxide,cocoa butter, and vaseline were the main items in the bathroom cabinet.

10)She made partisipate in every church activity(choir,Jr.Usher Board,Easter Play,Christmas Play,etc).

11)have you ever been beaten for something your brother or sister did just because you were around?

12)She vacuums everyday just so the carpetcan have lines in it.

13) Have you ever been told to turn off the TV, get off the phone, or sit down and be quiet when it's storming outside because the Lord was doing his work?

14)You were afraid to call the child abuse hotline.

15) She has to talk to God..."Lord, please don't let me hurt this child," before she gives you a whipping.

If you can relate to any of these things, then say this prayer with me....

MAY THE ANCESTORS BLESS OUR BEAUTIFUL BLACK MOTHERS AND GRAND MOTHERS WHO DIDN'T TAKE NO MESS WHEN THEY WERE GROWING UP!
__________________

310 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:18:07pm

Sleepers coming out of the woodwork now.

Crazed Rabbit

Registered since: Oct 16, 2007 at 6:23 pm
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0

311 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:18:11pm

re: #294 pingjockey

So MJ, Larry, Magic, etc...are OLD history?


Yeah.....but not as old as me.

312 pingjockey  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:18:42pm

Good night folks!

313 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:18:44pm

Haha. Just watched the highlights of the Cavs game. That little kid they showed after Turkgolu hit his shot was priceless.

314 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:18:59pm

re: #298 Tarkus289

The dichotomy of child abuse and basketball is quite strange.

/ I am not complaining, just a little unusual.

Where do you find child abuse and basketball linked? Be very fucking careful with your next post...

315 jcm  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:19:12pm

re: #281 Crazed Rabbit

Call it "Hysteria" isn't a brush off?

Everyone was doing it, nice defense.

Sure they were kicked, beaten, and abused, but that's not draconian. Let's parse words and not address the issue.

Hey, they all weren't raped, no big deal.

Nice try.

316 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:19:47pm

re: #314 HoosierHoops

I think he or she is simply saying it's an odd comment thread.

317 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:19:52pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

re: #282 SDben5

[Dark_Falcon grabs both apologists and bangs their head together repeatedly to try to knock the crazy out of their skulls]

PIMF

318 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:20:14pm

re: #312 pingjockey

Good night folks!

Sleep tight my friend!

319 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:20:21pm

re: #269 jcm
Ah, hi there jcm! Didn't know you were lurking there, but you do deserve the accolades for what you do.
And I WAS doing ok until I came on LGF tonight and saw this disgusting thread (no insult to Charles, mind you - it deserves being "aired out"). Now I feel sorta sick and disgusted with myself for what I'd like to do to Mr. Donohue.

320 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:20:26pm

Errands to run tomorrow. See you all later.

321 Lynn B.  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:20:49pm

re: #282 SDben5

The language in mr. donohue's statement was plain and one should not read more or less into it than what it does say. I do believe that corporal punishment was the norm of society prior to 1970. Corporal punishment is spanking. I went to public grade school in the 1970s and my school had a paddle and kids who misbehaved were spanked. Most men that I know over the age of 40 were spanked by their parents when growing up. Now, I am not making excuses for the abuse or saying any abuse that happened should be considered the same as disciplinary spanking.

My parents were not above putting me over their knee on occasion. But they drew the line at a teacher or school official doing it. When they found out that such things were going on at the public school I attended (and this was in the late 50s) they yanked me out of there so fast my head spun. To this day, I thank them for that (among many other things).

And yet, that's not the issue here. If only that was all there was to these allegations of abuse. Donahue is shamelessly trying to rationalize and excuse the irrational and inexcusable. And he's trying to justify out of one side of his mouth what I consider to be sheer and unmitigated evil perpetrated against defenseless children while out of the other side of his mouth he condemns mutually voluntary acts between consenting adults. There's a word for that.

322 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:21:30pm

re: #306 AndyMacOP

I know, Andy. (Can I call you Father Andy?). I've seen enough abused children to last me a life time, and yet I still see them. Just the other morning I linked a story that child abuse rates are going up because of the recession. I could cry. I know other folks who are still working towards helping these kids and their families. It's the Lord's work, and bless you and all those who work to stop it as best they can.

But I cannot let pass commentary that I see as making excuses for it either. As I said up thread- it's the sort of thing that enables abusers, and that needs to stop too.

323 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:21:45pm

re: #316 Cognito

I think he or she is simply saying it's an odd comment thread.

Lizards are quite capable of multi-tasking.

324 Opilio  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:22:08pm

re: #281 Crazed Rabbit

So sorry to interrupt the group hate here, but let's get some things straight.

1) ....

CR

After almost two years, quite a debut post.

325 SDben5  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:22:46pm

re: #317 Dark_Falcon

I knew what you meant.

326 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:23:10pm

re: #323 Racer X

Lizards are quite capable of multi-tasking.

Sorry?

I couldn't hear you over my iPod, the vacuum cleaner, and the 70 mph road noise.

327 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:23:29pm

re: #316 Cognito

I think he or she is simply saying it's an odd comment thread.

Hey you! I hope so...
Really I do..I don't see the link...

328 jcm  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:24:03pm

re: #319 realwest

Ah, hi there jcm! Didn't know you were lurking there, but you do deserve the accolades for what you do.
And I WAS doing ok until I came on LGF tonight and saw this disgusting thread (no insult to Charles, mind you - it deserves being "aired out"). Now I feel sorta sick and disgusted with myself for what I'd like to do to Mr. Donohue.

The box I keep that in is bolted tight tonight.

It's bad enough it happened, the brush off is sickening.

329 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:24:13pm

re: #316 Cognito

I think he or she is simply saying it's an odd comment thread.

Thanks, Cog, that is exactly what I meant, I love the diversity of this place.

330 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:24:57pm

re: #322 Sharmuta

But I cannot let pass commentary that I see as making excuses for it either. As I said up thread- it's the sort of thing that enables abusers, and that needs to stop too.

You're absolutely right. Minimizing the abuse of the powerless as simply 'standard' for the society at the time, or suggesting that only rape is abuse gives away too much free ground to abusers.

331 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:25:14pm

re: #324 Opilio

After almost two years, quite a debut post.

It's a sleeper troll. They slumber underground for months or even years, before popping out a troll hole to spew their toxic bile all over our threads. They can only be driven off with repeated cluebat whacks or killed by the Ban Stick.

332 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:25:21pm
333 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:25:34pm

re: #302 American Sabra

Is it ok to laugh at that, or will they tell me to go fuck off?

You can and may laugh. They can and may tell you to fuck off.

Free country, and all that, don'tcha know.

Me - I thought it was funny - it made a point about the apologists and did it with humor. This is not evil - humor is the saving grace in many, many things in this world. This may upset some, but I don't think it is right to force everyone into a box. Some people use sarcasm to fight evil or stupidity, and some people don't. Telling people how to react to something is controlling, to me. People react in different ways - that's life.

And please, people, don't assume you have all the hurt, all the bad experiences, all the insight - there are lots of people reading this, and each and every one has experiences also and feelings also and ways of reacting that are theirs and theirs alone.

334 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:26:01pm

re: #329 Tarkus289

Thanks, Cog, that is exactly what I meant, I love the diversity of this place.

Nice avatar..Hope you are well today

335 Dark_Falcon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:26:23pm

Too tired to keep going. Have to get to bed. See you all in the morning, give the trolls hell!

336 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:26:40pm

re: #334 HoosierHoops

Thanks, I am, I love three day weekends.

337 Killian Bundy  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:26:43pm

Okay, you put a rubber band around something but it's too loose, so you stretch it, twist it into a figure eight, and loop it back over the object.

/is there a better way to describe that process?

338 FemNaziBitch  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:27:00pm

re: #309 DistantThunder

Boundaries must be enforced. I think there is a line, but with each child and each situation that line is different. I think some parents are so overwhelmed that they look at the possible damage from corporal punishment and compare it to what damage their children will incur from their own bad behavior if the parent does not enforce the boundaries. For some parents it is spank your kids, or watch them become part of the system, fall into a gang or worse.

Luckily, I never had to make that choice. My kid responded to "time outs", but I also got to be a stay-at-home mom, we lived in a quiet neighborhood and my kid was raised in a stable, two parent household.

339 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:27:23pm

re: #337 Killian Bundy

Okay, you put a rubber band around something but it's too loose, so you stretch it, twist it into a figure eight, and loop it back over the object.

/is there a better way to describe that process?

That's as good as it can be, I think.

340 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:27:43pm

re: #284 Syrah
Hi Syrah - well I hope so. Because of it's true meaning and intent, and the degree to which it affects me personally, I can't say "Happy Memorial Day" - just have a good Memorial Day.
But more importantly, mom was diagnosed as having had a "very minor stroke" this past week. We have reason to believe that the diagnosis was incorrect, but it has still left me..........sorta shaken. So we're doing OK this weekend, thanks!
How are you doing this holiday weekend?

341 WindHorse  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:28:00pm

can anyone tell me what was inappropriate about comment #98?

Thanks.

342 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:28:10pm

re: #337 Killian Bundy

Okay, you put a rubber band around something but it's too loose, so you stretch it, twist it into a figure eight, and loop it back over the object.

/is there a better way to describe that process?

You double it up?

343 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:29:10pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

re: #282 SDben5

[Dark_Falcon grabs both apologists and bangs their head together repeatedly to try to knock the crazy out of their skills]


Harder and faster, please.

344 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:29:17pm

re: #336 Tarkus289

Thanks, I am, I love three day weekends.

Hey you..4 day weekend for me..I've been at the track today..Lots of food and beer..

345 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:29:43pm

re: #299 realwest

could you e-mail me

On it's way...

346 AndyMacOP  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:30:20pm

re: #322 Sharmuta

I know, Andy. (Can I call you Father Andy?). I've seen enough abused children to last me a life time, and yet I still see them. Just the other morning I linked a story that child abuse rates are going up because of the recession. I could cry. I know other folks who are still working towards helping these kids and their families. It's the Lord's work, and bless you and all those who work to stop it as best they can.

But I cannot let pass commentary that I see as making excuses for it either. As I said up thread- it's the sort of thing that enables abusers, and that needs to stop too.

Fair and true. But for the sake of full disclosure on my part, I am a Dominican priest, trained in the methodical thought of St. Thomas Aquinas, so I can rarely resist the temptation to make a distinction and point out false or misleading statements no matter where they exist. Starting with the first ones that I see. It's a curse and a blessing I guess. Peace and goodnight to all.

347 FemNaziBitch  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:30:36pm

re: #340 realwest

Hi Syrah - well I hope so. Because of it's true meaning and intent, and the degree to which it affects me personally, I can't say "Happy Memorial Day" - just have a good Memorial Day.
But more importantly, mom was diagnosed as having had a "very minor stroke" this past week. We have reason to believe that the diagnosis was incorrect, but it has still left me..........sorta shaken. So we're doing OK this weekend, thanks!
How are you doing this holiday weekend?

((((RW))))
((((RW's Mom))))

348 Killian Bundy  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:30:42pm

re: #342 Catttt

You double it up?

/yeah, that's what I was thinking, because it's just such a instinctive, natural thing to do, but that could also be construed as using two rubber bands

349 jvic  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:30:54pm

Ecclesiastes 4:1--

Again I saw all the oppressions that are done under the sun. And behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they had no one to comfort them! On the side of their oppressors there was power, and there was no one to comfort them.

But that would cheapen rape.

spit

350 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:31:14pm

re: #341 WindHorse

If you wished anyone harm or ill or made a general, derogatory statement about an entire group, that'll do it. Violence talk will do it. Joking about a specific person being waterboarded being something you'd like to watch will do it (I did the latter once).

351 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:31:25pm

re: #340 realwest

I hope your mother recovers well. It is good that you are there for her.

It is a good weekend for me. I will have to work through it but it is a blessing to have a job.

352 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:31:26pm

Meanwhile, Hugo continues to try and silence his opposition.


Venezuela police raid opposition broadcaster

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Police and soldiers on Thursday raided a property belonging to the head of Venezuela's only anti-government news network amid a growing confrontation between the station and President Hugo Chavez's government.

Judicial police chief Wilmer Flores Trossel said authorities found 24 Toyota vehicles on a property in eastern Venezuela belonging to Globovision president Guillermo Zuloaga. They raided the property after receiving an anonymous tip.

"The owners of the residence will have to explain what these vehicles are doing there and why they aren't in a dealership," he said.

Zuloaga said he had "nothing to hide" and that the cars were stored for safe keeping because a dealership he owns had been robbed. He suggested the raid was an attempt to intimidate him.

"I don't know if they're trying to find something to try to shut me up. They won't shut us up," Zuloaga told Globovision reporters.

353 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:32:11pm

re: #346 AndyMacOP

Fair and true. But for the sake of full disclosure on my part, I am a Dominican priest, trained in the methodical thought of St. Thomas Aquinas, so I can rarely resist the temptation to make a distinction and point out false or misleading statements no matter where they exist. Starting with the first ones that I see. It's a curse and a blessing I guess. Peace and goodnight to all.

Peace out....

354 WindHorse  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:32:54pm

re: #350 Catttt

but,I didn't.... (did I?)

355 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:33:11pm

re: #348 Killian Bundy

/yeah, that's what I was thinking, because it's just such a instinctive, natural thing to do, but that could also be construed as using two rubber bands

You know what's really hard? Running a trivia game where the people playing are from all over the planet. All those little things we take for granted are so much gibberish to people who don't know the idioms. Your way was more descriptive and accurate, but most Americans know what double it up means.

356 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:33:31pm

re: #347 ggt Thank you ggt!

357 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:33:46pm

re: #354 WindHorse

but,I didn't.... (did I?)

Search me, hon. I missed it. :D

358 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:34:36pm

It's amazing, but this is where it seems to be headed -- no matter how disgusting and evil the comments are from people like Donohue, invariably someone will turn up and make excuses for them.

To the despicable morons who are doing that in this thread, I've corrected my post to say "before the 1970s," so you can take your idiotic legalisms, fold them into sharp corners, and cram them into your nether orifices.

359 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:34:38pm

re: #355 Catttt

You know what's really hard? Running a trivia game where the people playing are from all over the planet. All those little things we take for granted are so much gibberish to people who don't know the idioms. Your way was more descriptive and accurate, but most Americans know what double it up means.

"Quit pulling my leg."
"Well, stop biting my head off."
".... Quoi?!..."

360 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:34:39pm

re: #356 realwest

Thank you ggt!

Realwest! You doing ok? I had fun today

361 Crazed Rabbit  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:34:59pm

re: #292 Dark_Falcon

What? Debate too hard?

And yea, I haven't posted before this. But I read this blog because I'm rather not fond of Islamic terrorism and I don't like nationalist racist parties. And most times I don't see a need to comment because somebody's already said what I would.

But when I came to this thread and saw almost every post calling Donahue a F***** of one type or another, I thought I ought to post.

Are you reading the report? Saying that only 1 in 8 abusers was a priest is a pretty weak excuse. Who was responsible for the institution?

Well it makes the Reuters headline "Irish Priests Beat, Raped Children,” rather inaccurate, doesn't it?

CR

362 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:35:26pm

re: #351 Syrah
Thank you Syrah - and you're right, better to work through this holiday weekend than to have no work at all.

363 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:35:53pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

Child Abuse Spiking During Recession

I could never understand that kind of behavior. It always seemed so bizarre. It cannot be ignored.

364 Desert Dog  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:36:17pm

re: #352 Racer X

Meanwhile, Hugo continues to try and silence his opposition.

Why not? Hugo's new found buddy and fellow book reader Barack thinks he is doing a great job.

365 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:36:19pm

re: #359 Cognito

"Quit pulling my leg."
"Well, stop biting my head off."
".... Quoi?!..."

Whatsamatter? It's a piece of cake! :D

366 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:36:29pm

re: #358 Charles

It's amazing, but this is where it seems to be headed -- no matter how disgusting and evil the comments are from people like Donohue, invariably someone will turn up and make excuses for them.

To the despicable morons who are doing that in this thread, I've corrected my post to say "before the 1970s," so you can take your idiotic legalisms, fold them into sharp corners, and cram them into your nether orifices.

You know what they say about excuses....

367 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:36:39pm
Sobbing Kindergarteners Snubbed for Steelers?

Kids locked out of White House; officials say they were too late

Thursday was supposed to be the highlight of the year for more than 100 kindergarteners from Stafford County, Va. They got up early and took a chartered bus to the White House for a school field trip. But when they arrived, all the 5-year-olds got was a lesson in disappointment.

A group of young students didn't get to tour the White House, and they say it's because of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

The buses from Conway Elementary arrived at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue a little later than planned, and they were locked out.

"We were going to the White House, but we couldn’t get in so I felt sad," 5-year-old Cameron Stine said.

Parents say they were just 10 minutes late for their scheduled tour. School officials say White House staff said they needed to get ready for the president's event with the Super Bowl champion Pittsburgh Steelers, so they couldn't come in.

"I was angry cause they were disappointed," parent and chaperone Paty Stine said.

The Steelers and the Obama administration used their time together to create 3,000 care packages for U.S. troops as part of a Wounded Warriors initiative.

Waaaaaah!

368 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:36:41pm

re: #361 Crazed Rabbit

Yeah- I called donohue a bunch of vulgar things, and I'd do it again, and also to his face because it's the truth. Anyone who wants to minimize child abuse can fuck off.

369 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:36:51pm

re: #361 Crazed Rabbit

What? Debate too hard?

And yea, I haven't posted before this. But I read this blog because I'm rather not fond of Islamic terrorism and I don't like nationalist racist parties. And most times I don't see a need to comment because somebody's already said what I would.

But when I came to this thread and saw almost every post calling Donahue a F***** of one type or another, I thought I ought to post.

Well it makes the Reuters headline "Irish Priests Beat, Raped Children,” rather inaccurate, doesn't it?

CR

You're missing the significance of moral and religious authority, which the priests enjoyed.

370 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:37:15pm

re: #158 SDben5

To me, Mr. Johnson appears to be misrepresenting Mr. Donohue's statement.

Mr. Donohue did not say that it all happened in the 1970s. He said the majority of cases were before the year 1970. Mr. Donohue did not say that delinquets and miscreants deserved abuse. He simply points out that the social norm prior to 1970 was for corporal punishment that in today's terms would be considered abuse. And that corporal punishment was more often given to delinquets and miscreants.

The way it was, is not the way it is.

I learned that the hard way.

I can tell stories -- true ones -- about the IRA that would disgust anyone. I can tell you stories of allegience -- in blood -- to a cause.

I wept over the Good Friday Accords.

Four years later, on 9/11/01, I learned something I never thought of. My Ireland would never --ever -- be associated with terrorism again.

The way it was, is not the way it is.

.

371 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:37:25pm

re: #361 Crazed Rabbit

Well it makes the Reuters headline "Irish Priests Beat, Raped Children,” rather inaccurate, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't because they did.

372 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:37:30pm

re: #358 Charles
"nether orifices"? My, you're getting gentle as you get older!
/ducks and runs really fast for an even older man!

373 Crazed Rabbit  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:38:27pm
To the despicable morons who are doing that in this thread, I've corrected my post to say "before the 1970s," so you can take your idiotic legalisms, fold them into sharp corners, and cram them into your nether orifices.

Thank you sir! That scratches just the right itch - and you wouldn't believe how it is to get that kind of service when you live with a bunch of rabbits.

CR

374 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:38:33pm

re: #360 HoosierHoops
Hey Hoops - glad you had fun today. Please see my comment #340 for how I'm doing.

375 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:39:29pm

Bye now. It's been real.

376 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:39:47pm

Blech.

377 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:39:56pm

re: #372 realwest

Think The Longest Yard.

378 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:40:04pm

re: #309 DistantThunder

Maybe it's the late hour, but I still don't get you. My mother was a Head Start teacher in the 60s and 70s. As you know, Head Start is pre-K program for those with low incomes. She saw a great deal of abuse, children with bruises, black eyes, cigarette burns on their arms, etc. She used to bring some of them home for a night or two to give them a break. She also went to their homes (and took me along) to counsel the parents or brought the mothers to the classroom to show them more effective ways of dealing with their frustrations.

There were very few legal mechanisms to deal with such abuse then. Even so, that doesn't make it acceptable no matter who justifies it. Certainly, we have grown from such a place, became smarter, more caring, more aware and our laws have changed for the better despite those who still think cracking your kid over the head with a 2x4 is good parenting.

379 Tarkus289  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:40:48pm

I'm off for my weekly allowance of ice cream, good night to all...
Realwest, good luck and hugs to your mom.
Hoosier, sorry about the misunderstanding, enjoy the next three days.
Syrah, make the best of your working weekend, and keep positive attitude.
Cognito, thanks for looking out for me.
Charles, thanks for the greatest blog on earth.

380 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:40:52pm

The most interesting talk show I ever saw was a Dick Cavett show. The guests were Jim Brown, Truman Capote, and Lester Maddox. I can safely say that Gov. Maddox was seriously outmanned in this particular fight. God, Mr. Capote was a clever fellow, and Jim Brown was just right as a counterbalance.

The nether orifices remark made me think of it, but I believe the phrase used during the show was "where the moon don't shine." That was Mr. Cavett's contribution.

381 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:41:35pm

re: #346 AndyMacOP

Fair and true. But for the sake of full disclosure on my part, I am a Dominican priest, trained in the methodical thought of St. Thomas Aquinas, so I can rarely resist the temptation to make a distinction and point out false or misleading statements no matter where they exist. Starting with the first ones that I see. It's a curse and a blessing I guess. Peace and goodnight to all.

So the Irish report on child abuse is false or misleading? Most of it was falsified and "nothing ever happened" or at least not as represented within the report. Out of the thousands that were involved including witnesses it only resulted in a false or misleading account which can be summed up as "hysteria" as stated by the curmudgeon Bill Donohue.

Bill Donohue must have a lot of sway with people. In essence he is saying "nothing to see here but hysteria." Not once does he address the issue. Not once does he display any compassion for the victims. Instead he resorts to a feeble short essay in an attempt to excuse for the heinous acts reflected in the report.

The executive summary lays it out in short form. These events took place well into the 1990s. To not reflect on the past only results repeating the errors of the past. These real miscreants are lucky they didn't face prosecution and jail time. Essentially, Bill Donohue is providing an excuse for criminal and anti-social behavior that is not acceptable in any society or culture whether it be secular or non-secular.

382 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:41:36pm

Well y'all I gotta go now. I hope you all have a great evening/early morning and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

383 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:42:31pm

re: #118 EmmmieG

The really pathetic part is that Mr. Donohue is trying to protect the Catholic church. To what end? Why does the church exist? To bring people to Christ, I thought.

How many more people will lose their faith because of the cover-up than would have lost their faith if the truth had been brought out swiftly and dealt with?

To all the good Catholics out there: I am sorry you are having to deal with this. Your faith and your good works deserve better.

That's why I mentioned that he's not a good spokesman for this issue....

384 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:43:31pm

To the two creeps who just lost their accounts -- don't bother emailing me to complain or spew abuse. Any emails from you will be deleted without reading.

385 Desert Dog  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:43:52pm

The acts of priests was allowed by the higher ups for years and years. They "passed the trash" anytime something came up. Just move the bad apple to another parish and cover it up. The problem with the priests abusing children is pretty bad. The church covering it up years and years is just as bad, if not worse. They hurt their own cause more than they know. If they did the right thing from the start and kicked out the offenders and had no tolerance for such activity, they would have held the moral high ground. As it went down, they have none now.

386 HoosierHoops  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:43:59pm

re: #374 realwest

Hey Hoops - glad you had fun today. Please see my comment #340 for how I'm doing.

Hey Realwest...hope you are well tonight..

387 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:44:12pm

Syrah, my friend, I hope you don't mind, but this thread has zapped any Sowell talk for me tonight. Shall I put one up tomorrow?

388 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:44:37pm

re: #367 Racer X

Geez. First the Easter Egg Roll, and now this. President Scrooge?

389 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:45:24pm

re: #337 Killian Bundy

Okay, you put a rubber band around something but it's too loose, so you stretch it, twist it into a figure eight, and loop it back over the object.

/is there a better way to describe that process?

Unless one has never seen a rubber band, that pretty much covers it.

390 Desert Dog  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:45:56pm

re: #388 Catttt

Geez. First the Easter Egg Roll, and now this. President Scrooge?

I bet the Steelers would have gladly shared the visit with the Prez.

391 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:46:04pm

And before I call it a night, if Cato comes back here.

The Catholic Church has no oversight. In this matter or any other, quite frankly. They police themselves. This is a huge part of the problem. At least in theory anyway, the state is supposed to be monitoring abuse. And like I said upthread, there are watchdog groups who look after these facilities and report it. No one is keeping an eye on the church. It's up to the victims and them alone to come forward, which is why I suppose it's been hushed up for so long. Does it matter if a priest abuses or anyone else connected with the church? I don't think so.

392 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:47:14pm

re: #390 Desert Dog

I bet the Steelers would have gladly shared the visit with the Prez.

That would have been cool, and I KNOW they would have done so.

393 BignJames  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:47:19pm

26 comments between them.....and then.....WHACK!

394 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:47:57pm

Child abuse is another good reason why we should work to make birth control affordable and effective, and make adoption a more acceptable option. Many child abusers were not/are not ready to handle the demands of parenthood.

395 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:48:07pm

re: #358 Charles

I don't often up-ding you, but that one totally deserves it.

396 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:49:01pm

re: #358 Charles

It's amazing, but this is where it seems to be headed -- no matter how disgusting and evil the comments are from people like Donohue, invariably someone will turn up and make excuses for them.

To the despicable morons who are doing that in this thread, I've corrected my post to say "before the 1970s," so you can take your idiotic legalisms, fold them into sharp corners, and cram them into your nether orifices.

I can't upding this anymore; I just want to read it again.

397 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:49:40pm

re: #338 ggt

Boundaries must be enforced. I think there is a line, but with each child and each situation that line is different. I think some parents are so overwhelmed that they look at the possible damage from corporal punishment and compare it to what damage their children will incur from their own bad behavior if the parent does not enforce the boundaries. For some parents it is spank your kids, or watch them become part of the system, fall into a gang or worse.

Luckily, I never had to make that choice. My kid responded to "time outs", but I also got to be a stay-at-home mom, we lived in a quiet neighborhood and my kid was raised in a stable, two parent household.

One of my favorite book is by Wallace Goddard - father of 10 - who wrote the book "The Soft Spoken Parent." He says he learned to be soft-spoken from his wife. It's really a very hard thing to not cross over into abuse when the stress piles up - and kids know how to push buttons. I'm glad we have higher standards and more options. But having lived in a 3rd world country, Guatemala, - I saw lots of physical abuse of children -and it's not illegal - or not enforced. Lots of neglect, but people were poor and desperate and doing what they had been brought up to do.

398 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:50:16pm

re: #382 realwest

*leap*

...

*miss*

*tumble*

Nice head-fake, Real.

399 Summer Seale  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:53:20pm

I say this as a known and proud Atheist around these here parts:

Perhaps "Billy boy" ought to worry more about anti-Christian behavior in the report than what he believes are anti-Catholic statements on this subject.

But I know that's asking far too much of a "devout" lobbyist.

400 yoshicastmaster  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:55:12pm

he seems to have an agenda (duh.)

people with agendas often fail to reach the most reasonable conclusion when it runs counter their agenda. and here, he clearly is failing to reach a reasonable conclusion, and is an obscene apologist.

401 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:57:33pm

re: #391 American Sabra

And before I call it a night, if Cato comes back here.

The Catholic Church has no oversight. In this matter or any other, quite frankly. They police themselves. This is a huge part of the problem. At least in theory anyway, the state is supposed to be monitoring abuse. And like I said upthread, there are watchdog groups who look after these facilities and report it. No one is keeping an eye on the church. It's up to the victims and them alone to come forward, which is why I suppose it's been hushed up for so long. Does it matter if a priest abuses or anyone else connected with the church? I don't think so.

Religious oversight?

By who?

Obama?

I don't think this is an oversight question.

.

402 freetoken  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:57:36pm

re: #399 Summer


Perhaps "Billy boy" ought to worry more about anti-Christian behavior in the report than what he believes are anti-Catholic statements on this subject.

You ask for too much.

403 pat  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:57:42pm

No doubt after a decade of anti-Catholic press, Donahue feels a need to defend the inexcusable, predominately homosexual, abuses that his church's clergy have subjected parishioners, because of the Catholic church's strangely unibiblical belief in celibacy. I just read a story that implied that Catholic clergy in Ireland get more sex than I do. Hmmmm. The church really should adopt the Russian Orthodox model.

404 FemNaziBitch  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:57:50pm

re: #397 DistantThunder

One of my favorite book is by Wallace Goddard - father of 10 - who wrote the book "The Soft Spoken Parent." He says he learned to be soft-spoken from his wife. It's really a very hard thing to not cross over into abuse when the stress piles up - and kids know how to push buttons. I'm glad we have higher standards and more options. But having lived in a 3rd world country, Guatemala, - I saw lots of physical abuse of children -and it's not illegal - or not enforced. Lots of neglect, but people were poor and desperate and doing what they had been brought up to do.

What I can't get over is the amount of just plain "NOT THINKING" that goes on. People bring children into the world and DON'T THINK or plan for all the possible's. My husband and I lay awake at night worrying about all the "what if's". Others just keep having babies they can't afford or can't raise.

"Octo-mom" comes to mind. I think a lot of people create the bad situations they find themselves in and can't fathom why.

We can talk contraception (abstinence is one form) 'til we are blue in the face, but it just doesn't work.

405 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:57:55pm

When I took "The History of the Catholic Church" at Santa Clara University, we were taught that priests were able to marry initially, but because the dispersal of the priests' property to the their rightful heirs became a problem for the Church, the Church decided that without heirs, the priests' property would stay in the Church - and the authorities eliminated marriage as an option. It was about property rights. I heard it from my teacher, a priest, himself.

Results: lots of pent up testosterone -for centuries, and some very unholy consequences. IMHO. The priest of my former parish in California, (I was raised Catholic) was removed from his position while under investigation for inappropriate relations with children.

406 Summer Seale  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:59:16pm

re: #402 freetoken

You ask for too much.

So did Jesus. But I don't see anyone telling him that.

407 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:59:42pm

re: #400 yoshicastmaster

he seems to have an agenda (duh.)

people with agendas often fail to reach the most reasonable conclusion when it runs counter their agenda. and here, he clearly is failing to reach a reasonable conclusion, and is an obscene apologist.

A better response would have been, Our goal is to investigate and punish abuse whenever we find it in our ranks. We are fearless and relentless in bringing punishment to the offenders and justice to the aggrieved.

408 jcm  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:59:48pm

re: #394 Sharmuta

Child abuse is another good reason why we should work to make birth control affordable and effective, and make adoption a more acceptable option. Many child abusers were not/are not ready to handle the demands of parenthood.

Every foster kid through our house the parents and one thing in common.

Drug use.

For that population, even if birth control is available, their judgement is so impaired using it isn't likely.

Currently the norm for child welfare services is reunification, making adoption harder not easier.

It's a big problem with a lot angles that need to be dealt with at the same time.

409 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:02:45pm

re: #408 jcm

Every foster kid through our house the parents and one thing in common.

Drug use.

For that population, even if birth control is available, their judgement is so impaired using it isn't likely.

Currently the norm for child welfare services is reunification, making adoption harder not easier.

It's a big problem with a lot angles that need to be dealt with at the same time.

And if we make drugs legal will we get more drug use, or less? Every country that tried it, gets more drug abuse.

410 freetoken  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:02:52pm

re: #406 Summer

So did Jesus. But I don't see anyone telling him that.

There are a couple of stories in the Gospels, if my memory is working alright..., which tell of such a situation. Wanna-be followers come up to Jesus, he tells them so-and-so, but the wanna-be objects and goes away.

Apparently it's tough to hoe the Jesus-row.

411 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:03:20pm

re: #399 Summer

I say this as a known and proud Atheist around these here parts:

Perhaps "Billy boy" ought to worry more about anti-Christian behavior in the report than what he believes are anti-Catholic statements on this subject.

But I know that's asking far too much of a "devout" lobbyist.

From PZ Myers

The Catholic League downplays the evils of child abuse

...

I should add that this particular document only describes the girls' treatment, and the summary report points out that the sexual abuse of girls was relatively light, compared to the pervasive sexual brutality of the boys' workhouses. Donohue didn't even bother to address the plight of the boys from this report.

Donohue was wrong. Reuters actually played down the horrors of the Catholic workhouses from the commission report — read it yourself and you'll find that it isn't making "wild and irresponsible" accusations at all, but is soberly stacking up a mountain of evidence that the Catholic Church in Ireland was practicing great evils.

I also don't buy the excuse that this was done in the past and is irrelevant today. Donohue makes it relevant, acting as he does now as the embodiment of the mindset that allowed these nightmarish conditions to exist.

412 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:04:25pm

re: #411 Gus 802

This also has to do with a permanent power structure at all levels.

413 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:05:24pm

re: #387 Sharmuta

Syrah, my friend, I hope you don't mind, but this thread has zapped any Sowell talk for me tonight. Shall I put one up tomorrow?

Yes. Tomorrow would be good. It can wait a day.

I have been giving it some thought as to how the unconstrained believe the world is and how you can see what they think by reading the fiction that they wright. (Looking specifically at Carl Sagan and Contact as an example.) I should be able to better form my thoughts on this by tomorrow evening.

*

The topic of this present thread is difficult. Do not let it destroy your sleep this evening.

414 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:06:23pm

Speaking of druges.
(I badly hurt my neck 10 days ago, and have been on meds ever since. I'm praying that I don't have a ruptured, or leaking, neck disc like my brother who had to have 3 cervical discs removed and vertebrae fused.)

415 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:06:44pm

re: #405 DistantThunder

When I took "The History of the Catholic Church" at Santa Clara University, we were taught that priests were able to marry initially, but because the dispersal of the priests' property to the their rightful heirs became a problem for the Church, the Church decided that without heirs, the priests' property would stay in the Church - and the authorities eliminated marriage as an option. It was about property rights. I heard it from my teacher, a priest, himself.

Results: lots of pent up testosterone -for centuries, and some very unholy consequences. IMHO. The priest of my former parish in California, (I was raised Catholic) was removed from his position while under investigation for inappropriate relations with children.

Priests not being allowed to marry is indeed a "policy" that could be changed by the Pope at any time.

In fact, in my parish, we do have a married priest; he was an Episcopal priest who converted with his family and continued to feel the call to minister, and was accepted into the Catholic priesthood, wife, kids and all.

I will say - it takes a very special person (and family) to deal with the situation. A priest's job is a 24/7 job - your time really is not your own. I don't know how the good priests keep from burning out.

416 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:07:04pm

re: #412 DistantThunder

This also has to do with a permanent power structure at all levels.

Managerial perhaps. Or an outgrowth from the "vow of silence." One can picture is as "whatever happens behind these closed doors stays behind these closed doors." Events such as these occurs in a lot of organizations. However, the focus here is within these particular events.

417 jcm  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:07:09pm

re: #409 DistantThunder

And if we make drugs legal will we get more drug use, or less? Every country that tried it, gets more drug abuse.

I think more.

The thing I see with drugs, is it's not a personal choice. It effects the family, it impairs judgement resulting in pregnancies. The drug user eventually cost all of us in care, criminal activity etc....

418 DistantThunder  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:12:10pm

Time for bed - but on a positive note. My great-aunt was a nun: Sr. Bonafilia. She taught 1st and 2nd grade for 40 years. My grandmother told me that she was so kind, and beloved, that when it came time for her to transfer to another parish, the parents signed a petition and protested the transfer and she was allowed to stay.

Also, when my other grandmother died as a young mother, my mother, 4, and her sister, 7, were put in an orphanage by their paternal grandmother ( because she had a boyfriend and didn't want the kids around). My mother said she remembers how kind the nuns were and how they would rock her to sleep each night so she wouldn't cry herself to sleep. She was there a whole year, until her father re-married and came to retrieve them.

419 jorline  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:19:25pm

re: #408 jcm

Every foster kid through our house the parents and one thing in common.

Drug use.

For that population, even if birth control is available, their judgement is so impaired using it isn't likely.

Currently the norm for child welfare services is reunification, making adoption harder not easier.

It's a big problem with a lot angles that need to be dealt with at the same time.

Hang out long enough here and you learn more about the lizards...some good...some bad.

I've always enjoyed your post and respected for you.
Being a foster parent you kicked it up several more notches jcm.

Thank you for caring and providing a hope for those children!

420 jorline  Fri, May 22, 2009 11:22:00pm

re: #419 jorline

Hang out long enough here and you learn more about the lizards...some good...some bad.

I've always enjoyed your post and respected you.
Being a foster parent you kicked it up several more notches jcm.

Thank you for caring and providing a hope for those children!

PIMF

421 theheat  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:41:09am

I read about this report a couple days ago, and it had my blood boiling. I cannot fathom the amount of damage these people willfully inflicted on these children, while the church and others looked the other way.

On one hand, you have an apathetic agency, who saw repeated abuses and did nothing. On the other hand, you have a church whose ultimate goal is survival at any and all costs, now, in the past, and forever. In no case were the children perceived as anything but unfortunate inconveniences, nuisances.

Then this Donahue sonofabitch, and his trivializing... Reminds of of a well-known, equally crooked, MLM scheme, and their apologists. But, hey, as long as they can run damage control and keep their numbers up, they know they'll survive; victims be damned. It's a drone-like dedication to the cause. It's standard operating procedure.

I cannot add any more disgust for this intolerable situation than everyone else already has, so all I can say is ditto - underscored - ditto. Less eloquently, what a bunch of twisted fucks. Burning in hell is too good for them. Since I'm an atheist, I'm hoping they get their just rewards in this life. Piss on the whole lot of them.

422 nomra  Sat, May 23, 2009 4:01:59am

re: #42 Racer X

Sorry - I was agreeing with you. It is not indicative of all Catholics.

I certainly agree, in fact I would say that the vast vast majority of Catholics are absolutely appalled at yet ANOTHER example of institutional child abuse.

However, the real problem is, it's business as usual for Catholicism.

423 Jimmah  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:21:17am

re: #47 Gus 802

He's really pushing it:

So Bill Donohue thinks that kissing, and voyeurism (which is always non-contact) and sexual talk with children shouldn't be considered sexual abuse. I guess that means if Mr. Donohue saw a co-worker kissing a kid and then staring at him from a distance while bathing and occasional talking about sex is fine. Nothing to see here according to Mr. Donohue.

This man has to go.

This is the same guy who whines every time South Park crack a joke about the Pope or the virgin mary. What a fucking creep.

424 Canoe Train  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:22:07am

re: #57 Sharmuta

No one should be hitting anyone else, regardless of the genders involved. If you think it is wrong to treat a female in this fashion, then one should not be treating any person in this way.

425 Achilles Tang  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:54:49am

Donohue is saying that the Catholic Church is no better, no worse, than the average, or less than average, parent of the 70's.

So, who needs his kind?

426 pjaicomo  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:59:45am

Bill Donohue has been, continues to be, and probably always be one of the biggest blowhard, huckster, jackasses of our time.

Apparently his opinion of sodomy is on a sliding scale:

Disparate Power of Parties and Pain (Alright)

Equal Power of Parties and Enjoyment (Unconscionable)

427 Honorary Yooper  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:11:35am

re: #276 realwest

Hey HY! I've never been over to AtS - you said that
"Turns out AtS had enough of reaganite as well."
Do you have a link for that by any chance?

He mentioned it over at the stalker blog. Found it while looking at an article. It kind of surprised me. He claimed he hadn't been there in while because every thread turned into something about Ed's sex life.

428 Jim D  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:20:09am

re: #346 AndyMacOP

Fair and true. But for the sake of full disclosure on my part, I am a Dominican priest, trained in the methodical thought of St. Thomas Aquinas, so I can rarely resist the temptation to make a distinction and point out false or misleading statements no matter where they exist. Starting with the first ones that I see. It's a curse and a blessing I guess. Peace and goodnight to all.

You can read about this abuse and come away cheifly concerned about some statements you think are misleading? It sickens me that a priest would not be more concerned about these poor children. What the hell good is your church if it can't protect the most helpless among us?

Ah well, at least Charles corrected his post about the 1970s stuff, because it really makes a big fucking difference when the abuse happens.

429 notutopia  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:29:13am

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the Irish report today...

I'll comment today on Bill Donohue.

Dollars to donuts that Bill Donohue is a victim of religious abuse and neglect himself. No one in their right mind (denial state of minimalizing) would advocate that this Irish report has been overinflated. Hell, it took nine years before it was deemed "acceptable" to finally release to the public.
70 years of passing Time does NOT diminish the effects, or the justification for human abuse and neglect.
What a crock of rationalization!
Get some Psychological Counseling Mr. Donohue!
You are a poor choice for spokesman for the Catholic Leaque on this subject matter!
For your Catholic God's sake, Can't the Pope, your leader, and the whole of the Catholic Church just OWN UP on this travesty and start the process of ensuring that
NOTHING like this ever, ever, ever happens to innocents, inside a Catholic sponsored organization occurs ever again!

430 Kenneth  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:15:58am

This is simply horrific. No excuses, no denials, and no statute of limitations. The children were entrusted to these institutions for care & protection. All the perpetrators and all those who covered for the perpetrators should be prosecuted.

431 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:32:07am

"The Irish report suffers from conflating minor instances of abuse with serious ones, thus demeaning the latter."

A significant part of what is now Politically Correct "abuse" was common and considered normal in the decades prior to the 1970's. That is a historical fact that anyone over the age of 50 can tell you about.

'When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower. They think about rape."

Donohue is correct on this point.

So out of the thousands of cases of "abuse" in the report, how many were actually serious crimes and how many were stern disciplinary measures?

432 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:47:58am

re: #18 Joel

The core of left wing thought is the tearing down of religion as a support for the populace. Their favorite tactic for this is to exaggerate and then report the truth about religion, and then under report the downside of socialism.

If you film the worst 10 minutes of actions out of anyone's life, and you can make any saint into a sinner. That distortion is what the left has been doing for decades. A half truth is often much worse than a lie, because it can be more damaging.

You certainly don't see much breast beating on their part over the rape cases that Planned Parenthood has covered up for decades, for example. And those cases are happening right now, not 80 years ago.

That doesn't excuse the actions of a small minority of the members of the Catholic Church but the selective outrage of the socialists is also reprehensible.

A far a films go, I am still waiting for one that reveals the truth from behind the Iron Curtain. "The Lives of Others" was a good start.

433 quickjustice  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:54:18am

Bill Donohue is notorious for defending the worst abuses of the Roman Catholic Church. His bad.

434 quickjustice  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:06:21am

re: #431 tyree

The Roman Catholic Church has been the source of much good in the world. The successful seventy-year cover up of child abuse in the Irish church is no reason to rejoice. And I'm old enough to understand "stern discipline". With much of the evidence now buried in the sands of time, and most of the perpetrators, witnesses and victims dead, it's presumptuous of you and Donohue to defend the Irish church on grounds that "it wasn't so bad".

Given the cover-up, we are entitled to presume the worst. The Irish church should repent its sins in sackcloth and ashes.

435 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:27:18am

re: #434 quickjustice

There is nothing in what I wrote that anyone could interpret as "rejoicing".

There is a difference between "rape" and "stern disipline" as you said. The except from Donohue's report warns us not to muddy the waters by including both under the banner of abuse. Frankly, that part of what he wrote is so obvious that it is a wonder how anyone can disagree with that specific part.

I had a student once who was accused of "abusing" his child. It helped ruin his life and the accusation was false. I have know idea if his family ever recovered.

436 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:04:38am

re: #432 tyree

The core of left wing thought is the tearing down of religion as a support for the populace. Their favorite tactic for this is to exaggerate and then report the truth about religion, and then under report the downside of socialism.

What a disgusting attempt to excuse the systematic, decades-long abuse of children by the Catholic Church in Ireland. The report was issued by the Irish government after nine years of investigation. But you haven't even read it, have you?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

437 Salamantis  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:14:07am

re: #436 Charles

What a disgusting attempt to excuse the systematic, decades-long abuse of children by the Catholic Church in Ireland. The report was issued by the Irish government after nine years of investigation. But you haven't even read it, have you?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I fear that you make that recommendation in vain, Charles; such people are far beneath the capacity for any shame.

438 quickjustice  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:18:51am

re: #435 tyree

Don't put words in my mouth, Tyree. There are degrees of child abuse, but I didn't acknowledge a distinction between "stern discipline" and rape. Let me repeat my point: now that most of the victims and witnesses are conveniently dead, and the evidence buried except for some yellowing, old documentation, you try to whitewash the situation by claiming such a distinction.

That distinction is fabricated out of whole cloth. Neither you nor Donohue know whether it really existed, or whether or not every single victim was raped. Given the cover-up in the Irish church, we're entitled to assume the worst, not the best. The burden of proof is on you and Donohue, not on us.

439 Throbert McGee  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:44:49am

re: #423 Jimmah

This is the same guy who whines every time South Park crack a joke about the Pope or the virgin mary. What a fucking creep.

Anything and everything that offends Donohue's own interpretation of Catholicism, he calls "Catholic bashing."

In the South Park episode "Fantastic Easter Special," Jesus gets so pissed off at Bill Donohue's fanaticism that he personally kills the man using the "Glaive" (a magical five-pointed ninja star) from the cheesy '80s fantasy movie Krull. (The episode, incidentally, was primarily a spoof of The Da Vinci Code -- so Donohue was kind of a stand-in for the bad guys from the novel/movie.)

440 Throbert McGee  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:56:52am
When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower.

I wonder if Bill Donohue would be so quick to downplay the harmfulness of unwanted "shower-staring" if (for example) it involved two adult men in a U.S. military communal shower?

/rhetorical question

441 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 23, 2009 1:14:10pm

Mmmmmm I can't get enough of those "down home conservative values"

442 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:13:43pm

And thus, Donohue illustrates that he is exactly the sort of person who would have allowed such a thing to go on under his watch, and rationalized it until the cows come home.

443 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 3:41:40pm

re: #436 Charles

Nothing I wrote excuses anything. You will notice that post was in response to Joels #18 post re: the Magedellen Diaries. It is meant to read in the context of what Joel wrote.

444 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 3:51:15pm

re: #438 quickjustice

One of the frustrating facts of online blog commenting is the readers read the comments in a different order than each other and often fail to comprehend the other writers points as a result.

I assumed your line, "And I'm old enough to understand "stern discipline" was in the context of my question, "So out of the thousands of cases of "abuse" in the report, how many were actually serious crimes and how many were stern disciplinary measures?

Ok, so for you, "but I didn't acknowledge a distinction between "stern discipline" and rape."

Is that your way of saying there is no distiction between stern disipline and rape.

445 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 4:21:20pm

re: #437 Salamantis

"such people" eh, Salamantis? Reminds me of President Obama's "typical white person" remark. Except he was talking about someone in his family and you are talking about someone you have never met.

When I get time I will read the whole report, or an abstract of it. Then I will read Donahue's entire essay. And by the time I am done everyone will have moved on to the next issue.

The Irish governments report will be horrific, and Donahue's attempt to whitewash it will bother me.

But my statements about Donahue's second paragraph excerpted above will stand.

446 quickjustice  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:51:24pm

re: #444 tyree

No. I'm saying that the "distinction" between "stern discipline" and rape was fabricated from whole cloth by Donohue. He has no factual basis to assert that ANY of the abused children were merely "sternly disciplined", as opposed to raped. Apart from the published records, he cannot know what happened to these children. He wasn't there. It is fabrication, deliberately mischaracterizing the facts, to assert that most of what happened to children now dead was merely "stern discipline".

447 jaunte  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:07:33pm

re: #445 tyree

Donohue's rhetorical sleight of hand is to mention and list 'minor instances of abuse', contrast them with rape, and turn the readers attention to his false concern that the report conflates these issues. What he is hiding in that argument is the nasty spectrum of violence in between 'minor' punishments and actual rape. He knows what he's doing, and anyone who spend 15 minutes with the full report will see it.


From the concluding comments:

19.08 Sexual abuse was reported by more than half of all the witnesses. Acute and chronic contact and non-contact sexual abuse was reported, including vaginal and anal rape, molestation and voyeurism, in both isolated assaults and on a regular basis over long periods of time. The secret nature of sexual abuse was repeatedly emphasised as facilitating its occurrence. Both residential and day settings provided opportunities for perpetrators of sexual abuse to assault children in the absence of adequate supervision and through the failure of individuals and organisations to recognise potential risk to children.

448 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:33:12pm

re: #446 quickjustice

So have you read the report?

19.01This volume of the Commission’s report presents the compiled oral evidence of over 1,000 witnesses who attended the Confidential Committee to report their childhood experiences of abuse in Irish institutions between 1914 and 2000. In most instances the reported abuse occurred while witnesses were in the care of the State. They reported being physically, sexually and emotionally abused and neglected by religious and lay adults who had responsibility for their care, and by others in the absence of adequate care and supervision.

19.08Sexual abuse was reported by more than half of all the witnesses.

Assuming 60% is "over half" gives us 600 cases of sexual abuse over a 34 year period among a population of 170,000.

By the words of the victims, not all of the cases were rapes.

Note how closely the 3rd sentence matches what Donahue wrote in his first sentence. He probably read the report, or at least an abstract.

My support of his second paragraph reproduced above, and only the second paragraph until I get a chance to read everything, has been vindicated by the excerpts in the report that I copied and pasted above.

I don't support the Catholic Church on this issue. As a practicing Catholic I now have to register to volunteer to help the youth in my parish, even though I didn't do anything wrong. Some of you can walk away from this and shake your head, I can't, I get to spend the rest of my life paying for it and fixing it. My best friend from high school was sexually assaulted when he was child, by a stranger in a restaurant bathroom. I know the kinds of mental scars it can leave. I have also read extensively the research published by Dr. Loftus at UCI on false "recovered memories" and what damage those do to the falsely accused.

I am not defending Donahue, just the message contained in the second paragraph he wrote excerpted above.

449 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:41:45pm

re: #447 jaunte

I read the same passage from the report , and you may think Donahue's statement is just "sleigh of hand" but I think differently. See my post in response to Quickjustice for more.

450 jaunte  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:46:05pm

re: #449 tyree

He mentions minor punishments, and rape, excluding the large number of violent incidents which fall between those two extremes. I'd call that a distorted presentation.

451 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:04:44pm

re: #450 jaunte

He wrote, "The Irish report suffers from conflating minor instances of abuse with serious ones, thus demeaning the latter."

Far from distorting, I think that clarifies the situation, in the light of the headline driven culture we live in.

452 jaunte  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:08:24pm

re: #451 tyree

Here are his words. You can see the gap yourself.

"The Irish report suffers from conflating minor instances of abuse with serious ones, thus demeaning the latter. When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower. (Notice the gap here where he doesn't mention serious violence that can't be identified as rape) They think about rape."

453 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:33:41pm

re: #452 jaunte

So you see "the gap" as an intentional attempt to mislead and it might be, but only he knows if that is so.

Have a significant Memorial Day.

454 im_gumby_damnit  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:41:50pm

If you've been around a typical Catholic parish for any amount of time, then you've probably seen good people trying hard to make a difference in their communities and in their "sister" parish communities located in extremely impoverished countries around the world. You may also have noticed that the Church has been through a serious period of introspection aimed at addressing and preventing the very types of abuses that this report details.

Of course, it's only the negative press about the Church that gets any attention because it sells advertising. It's very sad and disheartening, but I think the good people in these parishes will persevere in their works.

455 tyree  Sat, May 23, 2009 10:00:36pm

re: #454 im_gumby_damnit

I volunteer 400 or so hours a year and everything I do has a cloud hanging over it because of the scandals, and the over exposure of the scandals. I knew one of the guilty ones, and dozens and dozens and dozens of wonderful, intelligent and hard working believers who never hurt anyone. We will persevere and accomplish a lot of good. We just buried an old friend who had been helping at the church since he got out of the Marines after WWII. He wasn't a priest but he was better than many of them, and except for his obituary he will never be reported on in the press.

456 im_gumby_damnit  Sat, May 23, 2009 10:07:25pm

Oh, and for what it's worth, Mr. Donohue does not speak for the Catholic Church. He is the President of a private organization and speaks on their behalf only. (See [Link: www.catholicleague.org)...] His comments are unacceptable.

Here is what Pope Benedict had to say on this subject a while back in an address he made to the Bishops of Ireland:

In the exercise of your pastoral ministry, you have had to respond in recent years to many heart-rending cases of sexual abuse of minors. These are all the more tragic when the abuser is a cleric. The wounds caused by such acts run deep, and it is an urgent task to rebuild confidence and trust where these have been damaged. In your continuing efforts to deal effectively with this problem, it is important to establish the truth of what happened in the past, to take whatever steps are necessary to prevent it from occurring again, to ensure that the principles of justice are fully respected and, above all, to bring healing to the victims and to all those affected by these egregious crimes.

457 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 6:08:45am

There are devout Roman Catholics who do good in the world. Having said that, there are those who do evil. When that evil is exposed, it does reflect on the church as a whole. Fighting that exposure, or defending that evil, is not good. Prudentially speaking, it's also terrible damage control. Donohue isn't helping himself, his organization, or his church.

458 tyree  Sun, May 24, 2009 7:29:48am

The Pope has it right.
Gotta go or I'll be late for church.

459 robdouth  Tue, May 26, 2009 9:31:57am

I haven't seen the report, and I'm inclined to believe Charles, but if you look at the quote that was actually posted by Charles, he's taken Donohue's point severely out of context. He was not saying any of the excuses about the physical or sexual abuse. He said that lumping in people who were deemed cold as neglect, lessens the impact of the bigger crimes. I didn't have time to read the entire article by Donohue, but the part you posted looks very reasonable. The part about the "neglect" being before 1970 was in relation to the being cold that he mentioned, meaning the heating may not have been up to standard, but it was before the 70's. Also the part about corporal punishment before 1970 is true, but if he is stretching "being kicked" into corporal punishment, that is just assinine. It does sound like he has a point if they are inflating the numbers with very mild examples of "abuse" and trying to give the connotation that all those numbers are for the worst types of abuse.

Please let me know if I'm missing something because I'm thoroughly confused why everyone is so pissy about this when the quote that was posted seems reasonable.

460 robdouth  Tue, May 26, 2009 9:40:37am

re: #438 quickjustice

When has the burden of proof ever been on the defendant? If someone is being accused of something, by definition the burden of proof is on the accuser. To do otherwise is to flip the justice system on it's ear and is just downright stupid. If Donohue is excusing systemic rape and abuse, I believe in some kind of karmic justice for him, and maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I think the anger over acts of abuse is being used against those who are trying to defend the church in an over the top manner.


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