Unorthodox Serbian Drug Treatment Techniques

Religion • Views: 1,982

The Serbian Orthodox Church has some rather unorthodox ideas about how to treat drug abusers.

BELGRADE, May 23 (Reuters) - The Serbian Orthodox Church ordered the closure on Saturday of a treatment centre for drug abusers after a video showed a patient being beaten with a shovel, punched and kicked as part of supposed treatment.

The Holy Synod, the church’s top body, asked Bishop Artemije, the head of the local diocese, to order an immediate shutdown of the facility and “launch proceedings against those responsible in line with church’s laws and regulations.”

A video posted on the website of Belgrade’s Vreme weekly showed one of the centre’s employees repeatedly beating a man with a shovel, kicking him and hitting him with a knuckleduster — brass knuckles — in the face inside a room decorated with icons.

The video also shows another two men holding the victim.

A man with the shovel hits the victim several times and he screams in pain. The victim is then positioned upright and repeatedly hit karate style in the head, elbow and feet with brass knuckles. The victim, whose head hits religious icons on the wall during the beating, eventually falls unconscious.

Here’s the video, but be warned, it’s pretty brutal stuff.

blip.tv

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99 comments
1 Sharmuta  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:05:32pm

Disgusting.

2 MacDuff  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:06:03pm

Charles, isn't "unorthadox" just a little understated?

3 debutaunt  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:06:46pm

Geez, I could really use some drugs after that.

4 Shug  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:06:58pm

The first part looked a lot like something Zombie would film in San Fran.

5 Gus  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:07:07pm

Sadomasochism

6 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:07:57pm

What's wrong with a bit of good old fashioned faith healing?

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

7 LGoPs  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:08:43pm

I wonder if Nancy Pelosi was briefed about this?
/

8 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:08:58pm

No blood, no resistance. If I was getting my ass kicked I would fight back. This guy gave none. Why? I have no clue, but there has got to be more to this.

9 jorline  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:09:29pm
The Serbian Orthodox Church ordered the closure on Saturday of a treatment centre for drug abusers after a video showed a patient being beaten with a shovel, punched and kicked as part of supposed treatment.

Is this what they mean by "kicking the habit".
/

Very sick puppies.

10 debutaunt  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:09:52pm

re: #7 LGoPs

I wonder if Nancy Pelosi was briefed about this?
/

Well after the fact.

11 Gella  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:10:20pm

why does that remind me of middle ages?

12 Sharmuta  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:10:45pm

I'm not going to watch the video. I admit I'm not able to stand such ugliness.

But this is the equivalent of what we do to drug users when we put them in jail. Most of them don't need harsh treatment, they need to get clean and learn how to deal with their lives.

13 abolitionist  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:10:57pm

Couldn't they have just purged him with Hysop, and called it a day?

14 Shug  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:11:42pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

I'm not going to watch the video. I admit I'm not able to stand such ugliness.

But this is the equivalent of what we do to drug users when we put them in jail. Most of them don't need harsh treatment, they need to get clean and learn how to deal with their lives.

As an alternative to this ugliness, watch the video I just posted in the spinoff link. It's amazing high def of hubble being released.
SPECTACULAR

15 jorline  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:12:26pm

re: #8 Erik The Red

No blood, no resistance. If I was getting my ass kicked I would fight back. This guy gave none. Why? I have no clue, but there has got to be more to this.

They give him a upper as a treat for being such a good sport.
/

16 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:13:18pm

This victim appears to somewhat accepting of these attacks. He puts up no resistance at all. I suspect he's been through this before.

17 MacDuff  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:13:55pm

re: #7 LGoPs

I wonder if Nancy Pelosi was briefed about this?
/

"When they mentioned a shovel, I thought they were talking about...uh, wait my pages are out of order...no, no they...no, my aides don't remember....uh....uh. They LIED TO ME!"

18 Sharmuta  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:14:58pm

God is Love, and to prove it, we're going to beat the living hell out of you.

Brilliant!

19 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:15:03pm

Beat the drugs out, and religion in.

20 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:15:16pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

I'm not going to watch the video. I admit I'm not able to stand such ugliness.

But this is the equivalent of what we do to drug users when we put them in jail. Most of them don't need harsh treatment, they need to get clean and learn how to deal with their lives.

I have to disagree, Sharm. Overt physical brutalization is no even close to benign neglect.

Neither makes "drying out" pleasant, though.

21 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:16:46pm

re: #19 unrealizedviewpoint

Beat the drugs out, and religion in.

The Inquisition would approve.

22 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:17:22pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

God is Love, and to prove it, we're going to beat the living hell out of you.

Brilliant!

re: #19 unrealizedviewpoint

Beat the drugs out, and religion in.

I don't care how drugged he is or how much he believes in God. No one can take that kind of beating and not react unless it is staged.

23 albusteve  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:17:40pm

I'm never visiting Serbia again....OTOH pretty lenient compared to SA for example

24 rhino2  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:17:43pm

re: #20 FurryOldGuyJeans

I think she was referring more to the beatings they will likely receive in prison, though I could be wrong.

25 albusteve  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:18:02pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

God is Love, and to prove it, we're going to beat the living hell out of you.

Brilliant!

were they Baptists?

26 rhino2  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:19:04pm

re: #22 Erik The Red

According to the story he reacted the way most people would to that beating, he "falls unconscious".

27 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:19:39pm

He'll walk out of the room when he comes to. No harm, no foul right?

/

28 MacDuff  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:19:57pm

I wonder how many of the people conducting these, uh, "treatments", felt that American conduct at Gitmo was unjustified torture?

29 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:19:58pm

BTW Lizards.

I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!

Watch out Florida. Here I come. :)

30 albusteve  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:20:16pm

re: #26 rhino2

According to the story he reacted the way most people would to that beating, he "falls unconscious".

pretty light punches...none of which were a KO

31 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:20:47pm

re: #29 Erik The Red

BTW Lizards.

I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!

Watch out Florida. Here I come. :)

Next year on LOST... :)

32 Sharmuta  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:21:51pm

re: #20 FurryOldGuyJeans

Neither violence nor incarceration are the solutions to drug abuse.

33 JCM  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:22:24pm

Beating the drug demons out....
literally it seems.

*Gah*

34 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:22:36pm

re: #26 rhino2

According to the story he reacted the way most people would to that beating, he "falls unconscious".

And when he was being hit with the shovel or first being punched? No resistance. NONE. I believe, from watching this that it has been staged. Watch it again.

35 legalpad  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:22:42pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

I'm not going to watch the video. I admit I'm not able to stand such ugliness.

But this is the equivalent of what we do to drug users when we put them in jail. Most of them don't need harsh treatment, they need to get clean and learn how to deal with their lives.

Exactly. I don't watch it either. I've seen too much already. I'm too angry already. A lot of perfectly good movies I don't watch because it's all about some horrible abuse that I'm fully aware of and can't do anything about. I like to concentrate on what I can do.

36 IslandLibertarian  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:23:07pm

......now which Step is this?.....17th?........

/it's a spiritual disease.........with a spiritual solution.........not religious......

37 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:23:10pm

re: #29 Erik The Red

BTW Lizards.

Watch out Florida. Here I come. :)

Your moving from a hot, moist, barely no season area to a hot, moist, barely no season area. That's like the Vikings settling in Minn... Erik the Red... oh, Erik the Red, never mind.

38 legalpad  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:23:32pm

re: #29 Erik The Red

Sounds like we should congratulate you, Where is the house?

39 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:24:02pm

re: #38 legalpad

Did you see my reply to your RUSH question on the other thread?

40 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:24:26pm

re: #29 Erik The Red

BTW Lizards.

I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!

Watch out Florida. Here I come. :)

great!

41 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:24:35pm

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Your moving from a hot, moist, barely no season area to a hot, moist, barely no season area. That's like the Vikings settling in Minn... Erik the Red... oh, Erik the Red, never mind.

I HATE THAT WHITE, COLD ,FLUFFY SHIT.

42 Sharmuta  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:24:51pm

This is the type of rehab to say NO NO NO

43 unrealizedviewpoint  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:25:02pm

A friend of mine has been arrested twice for possession, both times he did 10 days in LA lockup. Both times he accepted an ACD (Adjournment in Contemplation of Dismissal). If he stays out trouble (for 2 yrs) the case is dismissed. If he's arrested again he does 3 years hard time. My friend will be doing 3 years. This I'm fairly certain. I support Øbama with regard to his drug laws proposals.

44 JCM  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:25:18pm

re: #41 Erik The Red

I HATE THAT WHITE, COLD ,FLUFFY SHIT.

You've got a beef with frozen global warming?

/;-P

45 debutaunt  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:25:41pm

re: #34 Erik The Red

And when he was being hit with the shovel or first being punched? No resistance. NONE. I believe, from watching this that it has been staged. Watch it again.

As long as he wasn't hit with a water board.

46 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:25:47pm

re: #38 legalpad

Sounds like we should congratulate you, Where is the house?

Durban, South Africa.

47 legalpad  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:26:03pm

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

There you are Walter. I meant to ask you what you meant about this:

a hundred years of science and critical thinking

with regard to Rush Limbaugh. I haven't kept up lately.

48 albusteve  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:26:15pm

re: #34 Erik The Red

And when he was being hit with the shovel or first being punched? No resistance. NONE. I believe, from watching this that it has been staged. Watch it again.

the shovel would have killed me unless it was styrofome...the punches were no big deal....he was probably told not to resist

49 rhino2  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:26:25pm

re: #34 Erik The Red

And when he was being hit with the shovel or first being punched? No resistance. NONE. I believe, from watching this that it has been staged. Watch it again.

I felt the punches seemed a bit light myself, and was questioning the authenticity of it as well, but one hangup I can't get around is...why stage it? Usually with the kind of staged video/photographs we see, there is an obvious agenda. Whats the agenda here?

50 legalpad  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:27:02pm

re: #46 Erik The Red

Durban, South Africa.

Double congratulations.

51 legalpad  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:28:08pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

Did you see my reply to your RUSH question on the other thread?

No, I'll check.

52 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:28:15pm

re: #49 rhino2

I felt the punches seemed a bit light myself, and was questioning the authenticity of it as well, but one hangup I can't get around is...why stage it? Usually with the kind of staged video/photographs we see, there is an obvious agenda. Whats the agenda here?

Don't F with the Serbian Orthodox Church?

53 albusteve  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:28:19pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

This is the type of rehab to say NO NO NO

she has a death wish...either that or so incredibly spoiled she has no resistance at all...multiple rehabs?...somethings not right with her

54 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:28:50pm

re: #47 legalpad

There you are Walter. I meant to ask you what you meant about this:

with regard to Rush Limbaugh. I haven't kept up lately.

I answered. This past week, Rush opened his show with a response to the findings, in regards to the lemur fossil monkey "Ida," His response, in one sentence was that it was all bullshit.

He's an idiot.

55 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:29:16pm

re: #49 rhino2

I felt the punches seemed a bit light myself, and was questioning the authenticity of it as well, but one hangup I can't get around is...why stage it? Usually with the kind of staged video/photographs we see, there is an obvious agenda. Whats the agenda here?

I don't know what the agenda is. It just looks staged to me. I can't believe that there is no resistance to his treatment. And no blood.

56 jorline  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:29:24pm

Muslim migrants riot in Athens

Dozens of cars have been smashed, 14 people injured and 46 arrested in riots by Muslim migrants over the alleged defacing of a Koran by a policeman.

Waves of illegal immigration in recent years have led to an influx of Muslims, mostly from Pakistan and Afghanistan, living in run-down parts of central Athens. Greek rights activist Thanassis Kourkoulas said the protest showed the migrants "have a voice".


Typical radical Islamic voice.

57 BlueCanuck  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:29:54pm

re: #29 Erik The Red

Hey Erik, congrats. So when is the moving date? Get you here on a decent schedule like most of us lizards in the Americas.

58 albusteve  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:30:09pm

re: #55 Erik The Red

I don't know what the agenda is. It just looks staged to me. I can't believe that there is no resistance to his treatment. And no blood.

puncher was wearing speed gloves

59 Sharmuta  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #53 albusteve

The key factor in anyone getting help with an issue (be it drugs, or alcohol, or any other issue) is they have to want to change. If the person doesn't want to change their ways, you can't make them.

60 Truck Monkey  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:30:43pm

re: #29 Erik The Red

BTW Lizards.

I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!
I SOLD MY HOUSE! I SOLD MY HOUSE!

Watch out Florida. Here I come. :)

Bring Lots of money. The Teleprompter Jesus needs cash as he says he is out!

61 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:31:34pm

re: #57 BlueCanuck

Hey Erik, congrats. So when is the moving date? Get you here on a decent schedule like most of us lizards in the Americas.

Hey Blue. Rich coming from you :). I will be in the US by the 20th June. Booking tickets on Monday.

62 albusteve  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:32:42pm

re: #59 Sharmuta

The key factor in anyone getting help with an issue (be it drugs, or alcohol, or any other issue) is they have to want to change. If the person doesn't want to change their ways, you can't make them.

there's always tomorow...I have seen hard core junkies rehab in a few weeks and be clean forever...it can be done

63 legalpad  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:32:58pm

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

I answered. This past week, Rush opened his show with a response to the findings, in regards to the lemur fossil monkey "Ida," His response, in one sentence was that it was all bullshit.

He's an idiot.

Right. Boy, I really hate this involving of science in political ideologies. I don't get some conservative objections to evolution. If the left chooses to politicize it somehow, it doesn't mean conservative causes can benefit from dishonest or emotional reasoning.

64 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:35:12pm

re: #63 legalpad

Right. Boy, I really hate this involving of science in political ideologies. I don't get some conservative objections to evolution. If the left chooses to politicize it somehow, it doesn't mean conservative causes can benefit from dishonest or emotional reasoning.

I hate people that have zilch science training making blanket statements like this period, politics aside, with no clear rebuttal. All he said was that it was bullshit. End of story. And a lot of his listeners will just accept that.

65 Randall Gross  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:41:09pm

Serbian boot camps beat all.

66 Perplexed  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:42:28pm

Sure this wasn't filmed at a frat house initiation?

67 IslandLibertarian  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:48:22pm

re: #41 Erik The Red

I HATE THAT WHITE, COLD ,FLUFFY SHIT.

what the hell have you been eating?

68 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:49:26pm

re: #67 IslandLibertarian

what the hell have you been eating?

Hot and humid. Not Frozen. :)

69 Erik The Red  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:51:07pm

Lots of packing to do. Later Lizards.

70 debutaunt  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:52:23pm

re: #67 IslandLibertarian

what the hell have you been eating?

Rocky Road ice cream?

71 jvic  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:54:19pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

But this is the equivalent of what we do to drug users when we put them in jail. Most of them don't need harsh treatment, they need to get clean and learn how to deal with their lives.

Beyond a limited number of goodwill attempts, neither should addicts be shielded from the consequences of their actions. IMHO the AA concept of 'hitting bottom' is no longer the whole story, but there is a lot of validity to it.

I support research on the behavioral and genetic bases of addiction.

72 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 23, 2009 1:16:04pm

re: #2 MacDuff

Well, was he supposed to put a / at the end of the title? :)

73 Dr. Shalit  Sat, May 23, 2009 1:43:15pm

Wow - Gives a new meaning to "Attitude Adjustment" doesn't it?

-S-

74 Lokotes  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:02:32pm

And the Lefties get all twisted out of shape about waterboarding mass murderers! Jeez...

75 Zimriel  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:38:20pm

The good news is, it's not endorsed by the hierarchy, and that's why they're getting right on it.

Now, if the Orthodox hierarchy could do something about the hate it spews against Albanians and Jews...

76 Achilles Tang  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:51:30pm

These sound like the same people that Huffington broad defended against genocide accusations a few years ago, don't they?

77 Fabio P.Barbieri  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:53:45pm

If these gentlemen have unorthodox ideas about drugs treatment, it seems to me that you, Charles, have unorthodox ideas about reporting. The story says that the Serbian Orthodox Church ordered the immediate closure of the offending centre and an investigation into its practices. From this you conclude that the Serbian Orthodox Church is directly responsible for these practices. I have a suggestion: why not blame those who actually performed the deeds, instead of those who ordered their centre shut down and investigated? With that kind of logic, I wonder you don't consider the FBI responsible for Cosa Nostra's murders. And I dislike Serbian Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in general, but facts are facts.

78 Sharmuta  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:57:24pm

re: #77 Fabio P.Barbieri

The church was also running this "treatment" center and the whistle was blown by an outsider. You have to wonder if this abuse hadn't come to light if the church would still be running this facility?

79 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 23, 2009 3:06:06pm

Bill Donahue said the guy deserved it

/

80 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 23, 2009 3:47:51pm

re: #77 Fabio P.Barbieri

Excuse me -- the drug treatment center is RUN by the Serbian Orthodox Church. They closed it down when this was exposed -- not before. They are absolutely responsible for what happens inside a facility that they own and manage.

81 ladycatnip  Sat, May 23, 2009 3:55:48pm

Last night we were channel surfing and one of the ABC channels had an expose of a pastor in Africa who was sucking demons out of little children. These poor parents, uneducated, very superstitious, were allowing their kids to be abused. We couldn't bear watching it, so we changed the channel - but it stayed with me all evening.

These so-called Christians and churches will all be rotting in a place that's very, very hot for all their sick abuse.

82 theheat  Sat, May 23, 2009 4:28:12pm

Per the article:

"We are expressing our deepest regret to all victims of the ______________"

This should be some kind of downloadable form for some of these churches, to help speed up the process of their empty belated bullshit apologies.

re: #81 ladycatnip

...These poor parents, uneducated, very superstitious, were allowing their kids to be abused.

But don't try and force anything on them that would conflict with their religion, like not being ignorant and superstitious. This is what happens when religion becomes one-stop shopping for all things in the real world, and all their answers in life come from some egomaniac's interpretation of a book.

"We'll ask the Wizard. He'll know what to do!"

It's ridiculous, this herd mentality.

83 Achilles Tang  Sat, May 23, 2009 4:29:07pm

re: #77 Fabio P.Barbieri

If these gentlemen have unorthodox ideas about drugs treatment, it seems to me that you, Charles, have unorthodox ideas about reporting. The story says that the Serbian Orthodox Church ordered the immediate closure of the offending centre and an investigation into its practices. From this you conclude that the Serbian Orthodox Church is directly responsible for these practices. I have a suggestion: why not blame those who actually performed the deeds, instead of those who ordered their centre shut down and investigated? With that kind of logic, I wonder you don't consider the FBI responsible for Cosa Nostra's murders. And I dislike Serbian Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in general, but facts are facts.

That's like saying nobody in the Catholic church knew about the pedophiles until the newspapers told them.

84 Achilles Tang  Sat, May 23, 2009 4:32:23pm

re: #77 Fabio P.Barbieri

If these gentlemen have unorthodox ideas about drugs treatment, it seems to me that you, Charles, have unorthodox ideas about reporting. The story says that the Serbian Orthodox Church ordered the immediate closure of the offending centre and an investigation into its practices. From this you conclude that the Serbian Orthodox Church is directly responsible for these practices. I have a suggestion: why not blame those who actually performed the deeds, instead of those who ordered their centre shut down and investigated? With that kind of logic, I wonder you don't consider the FBI responsible for Cosa Nostra's murders. And I dislike Serbian Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in general, but facts are facts.

I should have added "idiot".

85 theheat  Sat, May 23, 2009 4:35:37pm

re: #74 Lokotes

First, waterboarding is torture. See this thread. Second, mass murderers were not waterboarded. It was used as an interrogation technique on detainees suspected of having information that may have prevented mass murders.

86 realwest  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:02:09pm

re: #85 theheat No Waterboarding is NOT TORTURE - certain branches of our military "elites" and even some regular soldiers get that and far worse as part of their SERE training. The thread you linked to was of a "Shock Jock" - not a member of the military nor a dedicated Jihadist - being "waterboarded" - it is an interrogation technique.

87 Lokotes  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:08:52pm

re: #77 Fabio P.Barbieri

If these gentlemen have unorthodox ideas about drugs treatment, it seems to me that you, Charles, have unorthodox ideas about reporting. The story says that the Serbian Orthodox Church ordered the immediate closure of the offending centre and an investigation into its practices. From this you conclude that the Serbian Orthodox Church is directly responsible for these practices. I have a suggestion: why not blame those who actually performed the deeds, instead of those who ordered their centre shut down and investigated? With that kind of logic, I wonder you don't consider the FBI responsible for Cosa Nostra's murders. And I dislike Serbian Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in general, but facts are facts.

re: #85 theheat

First, waterboarding is torture. See this thread. Second, mass murderers were not waterboarded. It was used as an interrogation technique on detainees suspected of having information that may have prevented mass murders.

The fact that Mancow couldn't take waterboarding shows one or both of two things: 1) he's a pantywaist or, 2) his experience confirms that the best way to avoid the discomforts of waterboarding, or the 'attention grasp', or the 'tummy slap' is to tell the good folks at the CIA what they need to know. What's the problem?

88 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:30:59pm

re: #86 realwest

No Waterboarding is NOT TORTURE - certain branches of our military "elites" and even some regular soldiers get that and far worse as part of their SERE training. The thread you linked to was of a "Shock Jock" - not a member of the military nor a dedicated Jihadist - being "waterboarded" - it is an interrogation technique.

I disagree -- it IS torture. Special Forces ops are waterboarded in SERE training so they can learn to resist ... guess what ... torture. It's used in this kind of training because it's a form of torture that usually does not cause permanent physical damage.

When waterboarding was used by the Germans and Japanese against American troops in WWII, we had no hesitation at all about classifying it as torture. Does it suddenly stop being torture because Americans are doing it?

Is it the same as pulling out fingernails or beatings -- obviously not. But it's torture.

Are there extreme circumstances in which it's justified? I'd say there are -- the interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is one. But we should be clear that what we're doing in that case is torture, instead of denying it and making light of it.

Also note this, from an article in the Washington Post:

In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."

89 andresm  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:38:15pm

Seems like a page out of Quitters, Inc., a short story by Stephen King.

90 Lokotes  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:49:30pm

re: #88 Charles

As Holder's Justice Department put it (bold italics are mine):

T]orture is defined as “an extreme form of cruel and inhuman treatment and does not include lesser forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. . . . ” 8 C.F.R. § 1208.18(a)(2). Moreover, as has been explained by the Third Circuit, CAT requires “a showing of specific intent before the Court can make a finding that a petitioner will be tortured.” Pierre v. Attorney General, 528 F.3d 180, 189 (3d Cir. 2008) (en banc); see 8 C.F.R. § 1208.18(a)(5) (requiring that the act “be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering”); Auguste v. Ridge, 395 F.3d 123, 139 (3d Cir. 2005) (“This is a ‘specific intent’ requirement and not a ‘general intent’ requirement” [citations omitted.] An applicant for CAT protection therefore must establish that “his prospective torturer will have the motive or purpose” to torture him. Pierre, 528 F.3d at 189; Auguste, 395 F.3d at 153-54 (“The mere fact that the Haitian authorities have knowledge that severe pain and suffering may result by placing detainees in these conditions does not support a finding that the Haitian authorities intend to inflict severe pain and suffering. The difference goes to the heart of the distinction between general and specific intent.”) [my bold italics and brackets]. . . .

In any event, the actions you take to waterboard are essentially the same whether the one inflicting the treatment is a miltary interrogation-resistance trainer or a CIA interrogator. (I am not saying all waterboarding is the same, nor am I denying that some waterboarding — such as sadistically practiced by the Japanese in WWII — rises to the level or torture. I am talking here only about these two situations: U.S. military trainer and CIA interrogator.) If Holder is correct that the military trainer does not commit torture because it is not his intent to inflict severe pain but to "equip" our military to deal with what he calls "illegal acts," then the CIA interrogator cannot be guilty of torture either since his intent is not to inflict severe pain but to collect life-saving information.

91 Zimriel  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:35:16pm

re: #83 Naso Tang

That's like saying nobody in the Catholic church knew about the pedophiles until the newspapers told them.

The Episcopalians have a problem with covering up after perverts too...

I would indeed like to know to what degree the Orthodox Church tacitly endorsed the practices mentioned here. At least the Muslim Brothers are brave enough to say "yes, in fact, we ARE a pack of bloodthirsty barbarians". I don't think an internal Church investigation is going to uncover much.

92 Fabio P.Barbieri  Sun, May 24, 2009 9:31:39am

Waterboarding IS torture, and it is not even the worst item on the list - sleep deprivation for up to seven days, in my book, is even worse. I do not want any association with this kind of scum.

That the Irish Catholic Church was rotten to the very top was well known among Catholics long before the Ryan report. I knew of it since at least 1990, and I had a serious row with some people on the now-defunct Closed Cafeteria blog about it, because I was not and am not willing to be sentimental about Irish Catholicism, having seen its effects among not one but many people I knew. That is exactly part of my point: compared with the continued cover-up by the Irish Catholic authorities, the behaviour of the Serbian Orthodox - not a body I admire - was admirable: immediate shut down, immediate investigation. Of course, those people who have it in for the Church in any form are saying that the Church knew about it since 1453 and has been covering it up for its own nefarious purposes. Such people cannot be reasoned with; they are like the Jewish Rabbis who tried to have the Pope arrested to recover the artifacts taken from Jerusalem by Emperor Vespasian's army nineteen hundred and thirty-one years ago. (I am not making it up - [Link: www.ynetnews.com...] )

93 Tim G.  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:05:04pm

Seems like a bad action movie to me.

94 AMER1CAN  Sun, May 24, 2009 8:35:29pm

talk about a total buzz killer. That shit just aint right.

95 irving  Mon, May 25, 2009 6:23:45am

Um... well... er...

I suppose that after going through that, I'd have a fairly strong incentive not to take drugs. Except for painkillers.

That's about the only reason I can think of beating someone with a shovel. But, hey, that's just me, I call a spade a... oh, Lord, I need coffee.

96 lrsshadow  Mon, May 25, 2009 6:25:12am

this video is staged. I mean come on, the guy who was getting hit didn't once say stop, he did try to get away, and the guy hitting him was not hitting him that hard. It looked more like some guys who wanted to make a video about cage fighting training then anything else or they wanted to shut down the place.

As for the power behind the punching, take a look at a cage fight or boxing punch then look at how this guy was hitting. Also if it was really brass knuckles the guy would have been bleeding all over the place.

97 lrsshadow  Mon, May 25, 2009 6:38:28am

And to be clear on what is rough interrogation and what is torture for those of you who have commented above;

The interrogators have been interrogated with the exact same techniques to the same degree and the techniques do not cause permanent and/or debilitating physical harm (breaking bones, etc) then it is rough interrogation and not torture.

Now that is not to say that if rough interrogation is used it is ok in all conditions. It would be obvious that this rough interrogation would be a violation of rights afforded US citizens in the due process, and it would also be a violation of the Geneva Convention as it applies to prisoners of war, however you must remember that under the Geneva Convention, those who are caught on the battlefield who do not qualify to be a POW (uniform, regulated army, etc) then under the Geneva Convention it is legal to do what ever you want to include any form of abuse, torture, and execution without any trial at all.

Now the US has decided to treat these "terrorist" humanly and provide a military tribunal, food, lodging, and medical treatment, even though we have no legal obligation under federal or international law to do so.

98 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:26:27am

re: #97 lrsshadow

... you must remember that under the Geneva Convention, those who are caught on the battlefield who do not qualify to be a POW (uniform, regulated army, etc) then under the Geneva Convention it is legal to do what ever you want to include any form of abuse, torture, and execution without any trial at all.

This is absolute nonsense -- you have no understanding of the Geneva Convention if you think it sanctions abuse and torture of non-uniformed combatants.

Good grief.

99 Jimmah  Wed, May 27, 2009 6:08:56am

Note to Serbs: just because thuggish bullying is the only thing you can think of, that doesn't mean it's the answer to everything.


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