That red light up there on the crossarm is only a theory!
I WANT to believe that I can drive right on thr

Hi Boomer.

re: #2 UncleRancher

Hi Boomer.

*moan*
Are you the ambulance driver?

/ ... heh

Don't confuse people with facts!

re: #3 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*moan*
Are you the ambulance driver?

/ ... heh

No, but I have my very own fire engine if that helps

Excellent video!

They got a durned Englishman to do the narratin'. That tells you sumpin' right there. Hellfire, he's prob'ly a red and a homo-sekshul.

/channeling someone I actually know.

Related: Why People Believe Invisible Agents Control the World
Excerpt:

The problem is that we did not evolve a baloney-detection device in our brains to discriminate between true and false patterns. So we make two types of errors: a type I error, or false positive, is believing a pattern is real when it is not; a type II error, or false negative, is not believing a pattern is real when it is. If you believe that the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator when it is just the wind (a type I error), you are more likely to survive than if you believe that the rustle in the grass is just the wind when it is a dangerous predator (a type II error). Because the cost of making a type I error is less than the cost of making a type II error and because there is no time for careful deliberation between patternicities in the split-second world of predator-prey interactions, natural selection would have favored those animals most likely to assume that all patterns are real.

That was an excellent video. A number of people came to mind while watching it, people who are obviously in the category mentioned as being fearful because of social pressures. I feel sorry for these people. They are missing out on something larger than just science- they are missing out on self empowerment and enlightenment, all so they can continue to allow themselves to be bullied by those who desire power over them.

I dedicate this video to Jenny McCarthy

An interesting note on that article about the Serbian Orthodox drug treatment beating scandal -- the Bishop Artemije mentioned in the article is the head of the American Council for Kosovo, which James Jatras, Robert Spencer, Andrew Bostom, and Julia Gorin work for. In other words, the Serbian Lobby.

See: [Link: www.kejda.net...]

re: #10 Shug

I was thinking of the DI shills and their fearful followers.

re: #11 Charles

Why am I not surprised?

IMHO, politicized creationism (aka, I.D. lobbying) is probably tightly bound up in the activists' individual and collective self images. Their minds will positively churn out (patently false) rebuttals, which they will necessarily belief to be gospel.

This video will be very useful in reaching people who have not yet come to that point.

/yes, groups have self images

re: #11 Charles

Nice folks...NOT!

re: #12 Sharmuta
My first thought when I saw this.

re: #11 Charles

Nice friends Spencer has.
/

This mindset is something I battle in the vaccine wars everyday. People who are unable to understand a risk/benefit ratio, and whose emotions have been manipulated with unsubstantiated scare claims, choose to override my recommendation for medical care for their children. Not one has ever produced a scientific article or website for me to review, despite my asking repeatedly for any evidence that they have to bolster their position. And the effect that they will have on the general population, as the herd immunity of a vaccinated population wanes, will be devastation.

In addition, they derive a smug satisfaction from overriding the opinion of a non-celebrity like me.

re: #5 UncleRancher

No, but I have my very own fire engine if that helps

I once made out a quarter-of-a-milion dollar check to buy one.

BBL

re: #12 Sharmuta

I was thinking of the DI shills and their fearful followers.

I see many similarities between anti vaxers and ID'ers

re: #18 FightingBack

In addition, they derive a smug satisfaction from overriding the opinion of a non-celebrity like me.

Prescisely. That part of it gives them the emotional pay-value of belonging to an "In Crowd".

/sign-up fee is neglible, long-term payments are a bitch

re: #20 pingjockey

BBL

Sonary a ping jockey is now on the thread.

Those who can face the real universe unfiltered by bias are few and far between; most of us can't -- but we should always try to as hard as we can. That means seeking evidence that's contrary to your assumptions, and being willing to declare yourself wrong when faced with facts.

re: #21 Shug

I see many similarities between anti vaxers and ID'ers

Overlapping memberships in many cases. Not to say that all or even many antivaxxers are ID'ers, but I imagine most ID'ers are antivax.

I wish I could believe this video would change anyone's mind.

The principles apply to more than just science, as others are pointing out. An example:

877 wrenchwench 5/19/2009 11:38:59 am PDT

re: #876 Joel

Nonsense. I cannot be responsible for a few loons who show up and I am not going to allow myself to be silenced via guilt by association. You are an Obama supporter - fine and dandy ,but do not try to intimidate those of us who are not.

I am not an Obama supporter. The fact that you asserted that I am indicates to me that you are not here with an open mind, nor do you base your opinions on facts. No point in me trying to insert any information. And obviously you will not seek any yourself. Are you afraid you might find what reine found?

re: #26 LuckyMe

I wish I could believe this video would change anyone's mind.

Change from a fixed mindset? Probably not.
It's value is those whose minds are still "on the fence".

Excellent video,
the same arguments I was trying to make regarding some assertions and positions of my estranged wife. Wouldn't work.
She kept on going back to the ever repeated claim that it is not yet provable and that this or that wisdom has been channeled to only enlightened 'special' (indigo?!?) people.
No way to reach a common ground there. Hence ...

This video should be required viewing for everyone. It called out and nuked from orbit just about every group spouting nonsense that I could think of without naming names.

The AGW hacks could learn from this video, too.

re: #23 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sonary a ping jockey is now on the thread.

He's no longer hear?

re: #26 LuckyMe

I wish I could believe this video would change anyone's mind.

What if it were narrated by a voice like Jeff Foxworthy's?

re: #32 wrenchwench

He's no longer hear?

Couldn't you tell by the deafening silence?

re: #32 wrenchwench

He's no longer hear?

Only his echo.

re: #27 wrenchwench

You're absolutely correct that this extends well past science. As I keep saying, it seems in this day and age people want propaganda so they can confirm their pre-existing opinions/beliefs. It's a sad commentary that those who look for facts and the truth get smeared as having "an agenda". The truth frightens some people.

re: #34 BlueCanuck

Couldn't you tell by the deafening silence?

Sonar, yet so far.

re: #37 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sonar, yet so far.

Enough with the puns! Don't be ASDIC about.

re: #18 FightingBack

This mindset is something I battle in the vaccine wars everyday. People who are unable to understand a risk/benefit ratio, and whose emotions have been manipulated with unsubstantiated scare claims, choose to override my recommendation for medical care for their children. Not one has ever produced a scientific article or website for me to review, despite my asking repeatedly for any evidence that they have to bolster their position. And the effect that they will have on the general population, as the herd immunity of a vaccinated population wanes, will be devastation.

In addition, they derive a smug satisfaction from overriding the opinion of a non-celebrity like me.

I take it you're a doctor? If the parents refuse to vaccinate, do you ask them to find another doctor?

re: #31 HarryTheHawk

The AGW hacks could learn from this video, too.

They have brought evidence. Those who are skeptics likewise have theirs. There are a number of factors in play concerning AGW, and we should seek the facts, and follow through, not reject the evidence because it doesn't support what we wish. THAT is what this video is about.

re: #39 doppelganglander

I take it you're a doctor? If the parents refuse to vaccinate, do you ask them to find another doctor?

...for their mental issues?

re: #36 Sharmuta

You're absolutely correct that this extends well past science. As I keep saying, it seems in this day and age people want propaganda so they can confirm their pre-existing opinions/beliefs. It's a sad commentary that those who look for facts and the truth get smeared as having "an agenda". The truth frightens some people.

I wonder: ... to what extent is this on-going, and to what extent might it be increasing?

re: #38 Guanxi88

Enough with the puns! Don't be ASDIC about.

*spew!*

re: #42 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I wonder: ... to what extent is this on-going, and to what extent might it be increasing?

I imagine it's always been with us, but with improved communications, it is far easier to seek out the exact version of "reality" you want to hear and read about than ever before.

re: #39 doppelganglander

I take it you're a doctor? If the parents refuse to vaccinate, do you ask them to find another doctor?

send them to a psychiatrist

re: #43 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*spew!*

OBOE you didn't!

re: #44 Guanxi88

I imagine it's always been with us, but with improved communications, it is far easier to seek out the exact version of "reality" you want to hear and read about than ever before.

Yes, improved communications coming on top of the rise of Relativism.

re: #42 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I wonder: ... to what extent is this on-going, and to what extent might it be increasing?

I think the attacks on science are having a ripple effect, where something like the scientific method is undermined or not properly taught, can cause poor reasoning skills in other areas. If we want children to learn a methodical way of looking at the world around them (and not just concerning science) then the scientific method is a good tool.

See how much easier it is to accept things are when they're spoken this way?

re: #39 doppelganglander

I ask them to sign a statement detailing their awareness of the risks involved for unvaccinated children (it details the risks, paralysis from polio, brain damage from meningitis, death.) Most of them don't return after that. There are practitioners in my area, famous for accepting these patients.
This year (2009) is the first time that I see a significant exodus of infants from my patient population.

re: #47 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yes, improved communications coming on top of the rise of Relativism.

The two reinforce each other - it is far easier to see the range of opinions and beliefs, to an extent greater than ever before, and it is easier, too, to filter your reality so that it corresponds to and reinforces your beliefs. A nasty, nasty thing; like an old-time king, we can all surround ourselves with an infinite number of yes-men and lackeys.

re: #46 Guanxi88

OBOE you didn't!

You're just TACAN that onto the sonar string.

re: #42 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I wonder: ... to what extent is this on-going, and to what extent might it be increasing?

I want to be optimistic.
Observing the big news hubalaboo of 47 million years old Ida (Lemur) I support this marketing campaign wholeheartedly. Because it'll get some people interested in science. Just as I am certain that the space program is an excellent tool to be employed in the same direction.

re: #52 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You're just TACAN that onto the sonar string.

Hey, you live, you LORAN!

re: #40 Sharmuta

They have brought evidence. Those who are skeptics likewise have theirs. There are a number of factors in play concerning AGW, and we should seek the facts, and follow through, not reject the evidence because it doesn't support what we wish. THAT is what this video is about.

I couldn't agree with you more. While I do not subscribe to the AGW argument, if they present well documented evidence to support their claim, I am more then open to changing my mind. What bothers me about people who espouse a position is when they make claims like "the science is settled" or refuse to debate. I always enjoy a spirited debate; I'd like to see Mr. Gore debate some scientists with an opposing viewpoint. At the very least, it would lend credibility to his research. His and his camp's lack of proper debate in an open forum leaves me very skeptical as to their claims.

re: #50 FightingBack

I ask them to sign a statement detailing their awareness of the risks involved for unvaccinated children (it details the risks, paralysis from polio, brain damage from meningitis, death.) Most of them don't return after that. There are practitioners in my area, famous for accepting these patients.
This year (2009) is the first time that I see a significant exodus of infants from my patient population.

That's really sad. But you've got to protect your other patients. What if some kid came in with one of those diseases and infected an infant who hadn't yet had the shots? Shug and debutaunt had it right -- send them to a psychiatrist.

re: #48 Sharmuta

I think the attacks on science are having a ripple effect, where something like the scientific method is undermined or not properly taught, can cause poor reasoning skills in other areas. If we want children to learn a methodical way of looking at the world around them (and not just concerning science) then the scientific method is a good tool.

Yeah, and I'm personally ignorant of the current educational system, though I've heard a lot of things.

My daughter went to an extremely good private school from 5th grade on. My ex and I never worried about the quality of her education.

re: #31 HarryTheHawk

There are both deniers and alarmists, most are in the popular press and are not real scientists. Who in particular are you calling out there with your general sweeping statement? Can we get to specifics so we can discuss facts?

re: #55 Jetpilot1101

I'd like to see Mr. Gore debate some scientists with an opposing viewpoint.

he isn't qualified to debate science.
Rather, I'd like to see him and Senator Inhoffe hurl opposing talking points at each other then both declare victory.

I would like to see an honest open debate between scientists and science, and have it presented in such a way that lay people can understand the argument and the science

re: #57 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, and I'm personally ignorant of the current educational system, though I've heard a lot of things.

My daughter went to an extremely good private school from 5th grade on. My ex and I never worried about the quality of her education.

I should have said, not after we got her into that school.

re: #55 Jetpilot1101

I couldn't agree with you more. While I do not subscribe to the AGW argument, if they present well documented evidence to support their claim, I am more then open to changing my mind. What bothers me about people who espouse a position is when they make claims like "the science is settled" or refuse to debate. I always enjoy a spirited debate; I'd like to see Mr. Gore debate some scientists with an opposing viewpoint. At the very least, it would lend credibility to his research. His and his camp's lack of proper debate in an open forum leaves me very skeptical as to their claims.

Part of the problem is the politicizing of science. Al Gore is such a divisive figure that he's damaged his own cause. People reject AGW simply because of him, and that's not right. I'm still skeptical, but I'm open. I haven't taken a lot of time to look into the matter as much as other Lizards have, but when folks that I trust (because they have integrity) point out there is more going on here, I tend to listen and consider what they're saying.

re: #49 carefulnow

See how much easier it is to accept things are when they're spoken this way?

LOL

Six. You shall not commit murder. - Redneck translation: Don't you pull that trigger.

re: #51 Guanxi88

The two reinforce each other - it is far easier to see the range of opinions and beliefs, to an extent greater than ever before, and it is easier, too, to filter your reality so that it corresponds to and reinforces your beliefs. A nasty, nasty thing; like an old-time king, we can all surround ourselves with an infinite number of yes-men and lackeys.

Like an old-time emperor, we can easily develop a clothed mind.

I'd like to see Al Gore wearing a muzzle.

re: #54 Guanxi88

Hey, you live, you LORAN!

How low can you go?

/frequency

re: #48 Sharmuta

I think the attacks on science are having a ripple effect, where something like the scientific method is undermined or not properly taught, can cause poor reasoning skills in other areas. If we want children to learn a methodical way of looking at the world around them (and not just concerning science) then the scientific method is a good tool.

I've said it before, I blame the poor preparation of science teachers. Most elementary teachers have had very little science education themselves. Even many high school teachers are education majors who aren't certified in science. Combine that with the therapeutic, self-esteem-based model of education, you've got a recipe for disaster.

Fun fact -- my daughter's physics teacher, who is fantastic, once taught Nicole Ritchie. He says she's every bit as dumb as you think.

re: #24 Thanos

Those who can face the real universe unfiltered by bias are few and far between; most of us can't -- but we should always try to as hard as we can. That means seeking evidence that's contrary to your assumptions, and being willing to declare yourself wrong when faced with facts.

A line from the poet Wallace Stevens has lodged in my head and always comes to the forefront when this subject comes up:

"How cold the vacancy
When the phantoms are gone
And the shaken realist
First sees reality..."

re: #66 doppelganglander

I've said it before, I blame the poor preparation of science teachers. Most elementary teachers have had very little science education themselves. Even many high school teachers are education majors who aren't certified in science. Combine that with the therapeutic, self-esteem-based model of education, you've got a recipe for disaster.

Fun fact -- my daughter's physics teacher, who is fantastic, once taught Nicole Ritchie. He says she's every bit as dumb as you think.

My daughter has a Masters in Education. Some of the stories she brought home from the CofE would set teeth on edge.

One of the things I'm learning about at the moment concerning global warming is coming in the form off the Ida book, where the earth was considerably warmer than it is now. They lay out, in detail, reasons why the earth was warmer at that point in time than it is now. Fascinating stuff! Some of it had to do with plate tectonics and ocean currents. Other factors were increases in various other greenhouse gases. Most of these were corrected in time because the earth's plates moved to their present locations thus shifting the ocean currents, to the plant life adapting.

But these were all naturally occurring and had nothing to do with man adding increases of greenhouses gases to the atmosphere. Pretty impossible to claim we're not adding to these factors.

re: #11 Charles

Well, sur-prize, sur-prize, sur-prize!

re: #61 Sharmuta

More than a few things damage the AGW cause. In particular, the whole "science by consensus" canard. And Gore has simply become a parody of himself. A pathetic loser promoting AGW to nourish his narcissistic, self-loathing ego.

re: #67 ShanghaiEd

Momentary OT, is the clipper in your avatar any particular one?

re: #69 Sharmuta
Please get a copy of "Unstoppable Global Warming" by Fred Singer and Dennis Avery. An excelent read and it slaps the goracle upside the head.

re: #69 Sharmuta

My argument with AGW is not that man is adding to these factors, it is how much is man adding to these factors and what effect is it having. We are clearly adding greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere. My concern is that since the impact question has never been answered, how can the government tell us what we need to do to solve the problem. They haven't defined the problem but instead given us the solution prior to defining the quandry. Sounds very quasi-ID to me.

Again, and I can't stress this enough, I have an open mind but I need some hard evidence at at the very least, a definable impact from man's contribution.

re: #74 Jetpilot1101

Amen to all of that.

[Ed. note: this account has been blocked]

re: #69 Sharmuta

I refused to believe the Green movement when they kept concentrating on the social re-engineering of people's lives rather than pre-emptive attack solutions to existing problems. When they actually strive to create jobs that employ people, to render a better working environment for everyone, when they actually engineer planning networks to offer adequate and feasible solutions to environmental concerns, THEN they represent something.

Until then they are just in the way. And I have a double barrelled shotgun which settles arguments like that nicely. Socialist re-engineering fools are to be treated as the scum they are. They will cost you your livelihood, your children their future and will see you oppressed. Thats enough of a reason for me to aim once and fire.

One of the big factors in the cooling of the earth from Ida's era was India colliding with Asia and creating the Himalayas, trapping water on the mountains in the form of ice and snow.

re: #61 Sharmuta

Part of the problem is the politicizing of science. Al Gore is such a divisive figure that he's damaged his own cause. People reject AGW simply because of him, and that's not right. I'm still skeptical, but I'm open. I haven't taken a lot of time to look into the matter as much as other Lizards have, but when folks that I trust (because they have integrity) point out there is more going on here, I tend to listen and consider what they're saying.

I reject AGW (Anthropomorphic Global Warming) simply because people like alGore push the idea that MAN (Read America) is the SOLE cause of the climate changing. The climate changed in the past when there was no industrialization, the climate will change in the future when man is gone.

And just what is ideal and natural temperatures anyway? There was a considerable warming period during the Middle Ages when growing wine grapes in Northern England was possible. Was that bad or good?

The meme from the 70's was that MAN was going to cause a new Ice Age by the turn of the century.

So which is it? Ice Age or Big Meltdown?

re: #67 ShanghaiEd

A line from the poet Wallace Stevens has lodged in my head and always comes to the forefront when this subject comes up:

"How cold the vacancy
When the phantoms are gone
And the shaken realist
First sees reality..."

It's not just cultural and ideological bias that we have to come, there are some that are "wired" by the nature of brains and perceptions.
Here's a good article covering some of them:

[Link: yudkowsky.net...]

/pimf "overcome"

re: #78 FurryOldGuyJeans

So which is it? Ice Age or Big Meltdown?

Big propoganda meltdown. It happens at least once every 20 years. At which point the movements need to re-calibrate their activities and start again.

re: #80 Thanos

/pimf "overcome"

You have overcome yourself?

re: #78 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't think even Al Gore's so stupid as to state that Man's the sole cause of warming. Do you have a link for that?

re: #81 buster bunny

Big propoganda meltdown. It happens at least once every 20 years. At which point the movements need to re-calibrate their activities and start again.

Which is just a fancy way of saying come up with another way to control people and shake them down for money.

For those of you rejecting AGW (of which I admit I'm still a skeptic) perhaps you should watch the video again. You're rejecting data because of the messenger- allowing your bias to cloud judgement.

re: #82 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Indeed, I am whelmed by my own oversight.

re: #86 Thanos

Indeed, I am whelmed by my own oversight.

LOL!

re: #78 FurryOldGuyJeans
re: #84 FurryOldGuyJeans

Which is just a fancy way of saying come up with another way to control people and shake them down for money.

You hit it on the nose Furry!

re: #85 Sharmuta

For those of you rejecting AGW (of which I admit I'm still a skeptic) perhaps you should watch the video again. You're rejecting data because of the messenger- allowing your bias to cloud judgement.

Sharm, I reject the ANTHROPOMORPHIC part, the MAN IS THE CAUSE part. The rest needs better data.

re: #86 Thanos

Indeed, I am whelmed by my own oversight.

Hail fellow, whelmet!

Science is work and one of the things I've noticed about science-bashers over the years is their contempt for work and working people, combined with a consistent and mendacious effort to conceal that contempt.

The traditional lower middle class here in the south is notorious for that, making microscopic distinctions of status that others do not make: Everybody else's job is worthless, and contempt for working people is routine. When I ran out of money and had to leave Cornell for Texas Tech during my undergrad days, I found that the students at Tech were almost obsessive about social status by comparison, even though many of the Cornell students were children of the very wealthiest northeastern establishment figures.
When I was a hotel security guard here, years ago, I had to routinely deal with rednecks who actually thought they had the right to physically assault the employees. The reason: The hotel workers were inferior in job status, in the judgment of the rednecks themselves. I was dumbfounded at this, especially since these violent snobs were themselves nothing special in professional terms. Not too long ago, the gas company sent a technician to my house who asked about my profession, then made a snide remark about me for not wanting to work for a living. I told him I would do a little useful work right then by kicking his ass into the street if it wasn't out the door in three seconds. He glared briefly and mumbled that it was just a joke, but he complied. The gas company sent a formal apology and a promise to deal with this person.
There is a very popular radio host here in Lubbock, a loudmouth self-declared conservative, who constantly disparages "welfare bums" and "liberal elites" on his show, but who refers to ordinary working people as "peons" in private. He is himself the scion of a wealthy ranching family but has always worked in PR and advertising, if you can call that work (just kidding). He is annoyingly respectful for me personally, but I don't know whether it's because of my perceived status or because I am bigger and meaner than he is. Either way, the feeling is not mutual. The best way for anyone to get on my bad side is to insult an honest working person because of the nature of that person's work.
What I am getting at is this: It seems to me, on the basis of decades of observation and personal experience, that this is the very same demographic that is the heart and soul of anti-science in this country, especially creationism. They are not the plain country folk they pretend to be, they are fearful, panic-stricken failed snobs and pretenders whose position in society is threatened by even the hint of real distinction based on real work, ie science.

re: #85 Sharmuta

When was the last time you heard of a Green movement fighting for the possibility of an area set aside for active reforestation BY THE GREEN MOVEMENT?

You wont. That would be actual creativity and substance. And they dont even try to offer that. Its a group of people who cant build a house, tearing down someone else's house because they dont like the color.

re: #73 Cathypop

Please get a copy of "Unstoppable Global Warming" by Fred Singer and Dennis Avery. An excelent read and it slaps the goracle upside the head.

The problem is that people like Singer and Avery are not innocent bystanders. Many of the "anti-warmers" are on the payroll of either corporations or think tanks that have a vested interest in the outcome. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia:

A 2007 Newsweek cover story on climate change denial reported that: "In April 1998 a dozen people from the denial machine — including the Marshall Institute, Fred Singer's group and Exxon — met at the American Petroleum Institute's Washington headquarters. They proposed a $5 million campaign, according to a leaked eight-page memo, to convince the public that the science of global warming is riddled with controversy and uncertainty." The plan was reportedly aimed at "raising questions about and undercutting the 'prevailing scientific wisdom'" on climate change. According to Newsweek, the plan was leaked to the press and therefore was never implemented.[16] ABC News has reported that Singer insists he is not on the payroll of the energy industry, but admits he once received an unsolicited $10,000 from Exxon.[17]

re: #93 ShanghaiEd

I take anything Wiki says about the debate on climate change with a LOT of salt. They have just as much of a green agenda to promote as the supposedly evil corporations have in supposedly denying it.

re: #85 Sharmuta

I don't reject AGW theory because of the messenger. I reject AGW theory because it's based on junk science promoted by politicians.

Gore just adds a comedic element to the "debate".

re: #73 Cathypop

A quick glance at wiki gives me this, which indicates that he might have some bias.

A 2007 Newsweek cover story on climate change denial reported that: "In April 1998 a dozen people from the denial machine — including the Marshall Institute, Fred Singer's group and Exxon — met at the American Petroleum Institute's Washington headquarters. They proposed a $5 million campaign, according to a leaked eight-page memo, to convince the public that the science of global warming is riddled with controversy and uncertainty." The plan was reportedly aimed at "raising questions about and undercutting the 'prevailing scientific wisdom'" on climate change. According to Newsweek, the plan was leaked to the press and therefore was never implemented.[16] ABC News has reported that Singer insists he is not on the payroll of the energy industry, but admits he once received an unsolicited $10,000 from Exxon.[17]

In 1994 Singer was the Principal Reviewer of a report authored by Kent Jeffreys titled Science, economics, and environmental policy: a critical examination which was published by the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution (AdTI), a conservative think tank of which he was a Senior Fellow.[18] The report attacked the United States Environmental Protection Agency for their 1993 study about the cancer risks of passive smoking and called it "junk science". Singer also appeared on a tobacco industry list of people who could write op-ed pieces defending the industry’s views, according to a peer-reviewed commentary by Derek Yach and Stella Aguinaga Bialous.[19] Writing for The Guardian, George Monbiot stated that in 1993 APCO, a public relations firm, sent a memo to Philip Morris vice-president Ellen Merlo stating: "As you know, we have been working with Singer and Dr. Dwight Lee, who have authored articles on junk science and indoor air quality (IAQ) respectively ..."[20] Monbiot wrote that he did not have direct evidence that Singer had been paid by Philip Morris.

re: #94 Iron Fist

It is kind of like the way Democrats want to handle close elections. Recount the votes as many times as it takes to come up with the right vote results, and then never recount again.

It is frustrating.

2004, Washington State, Governor's race.

AMEN, brother!

re: #86 Thanos

Indeed, I am whelmed by my own oversight.

I know the feeling. I am underwhelmed by my foresight.

re: #91 Shiplord Kirel

That shoe fits.

/omg, not ME ... I hope

Map of Eocene Earth

There were not the ocean current boundaries back then that we have now. The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans could freely flow between each other as they didn't have Central America to stop them. Warm water could freely access the rest of the planet. North America and Asia were still attached to each other and the Arctic Ocean was ice free because water had such a free flow. We don't have those lack of boundaries now. In fact- the earth has been cooling ever since the Eocene. Sure- we could not give a hoot about what we're contributing to this planet. Life will adapt to their given circumstances, but other forms of life will not make it- they will go extinct. For all we know, we'll be among them.

re: #91 Shiplord Kirel

Nice post. Elitists suck.

re: #97 Thanos

And wiki has NO bias? PUH-LEEZE!

re: #24 Thanos

I'm not a scientist and I have no special mind control tricks to prevent myself from the effects of bias, but I can tell when Im grasping something I find complex and strange without bias because my head hurts. Literally I get a headache. Lately this has happened when I have read about genetics and human migration. I want so desperately to understand the information that I wont allow myself to read past things I may only partly grasp.

I do know however that as I gain more and more knowledge of these subjects I am more able to set aside my biases in other subjects.

I clearly have an undiagnosed learning disorder. I only made it to the ninth grade. Subjects in which I have no interest are nearly impossible for me to conquer. Subjects I am very interested in find some way past the frustration and get inside.

Lastly, I have found that when I study a problem, I dont need to study directly in a line toward the solution of a problem. I can study all available lit. and at some point the solution just arises from somewhere within.

re: #95 FurryOldGuyJeans

I take anything Wiki says about the debate on climate change with a LOT of salt. They have just as much of a green agenda to promote as the supposedly evil corporations have in supposedly denying it.

So you're saying you get to pick the sources that apply to your argument? You win, hands down.

re: #92 buster bunny

Here's one.

re: #103 FurryOldGuyJeans

It's information, do you disagree with the statements? Prove them wrong, easy enough if they are false .

Put up or shut up.

re: #91 Shiplord Kirel

I have also noticed that the traditional hillbilly demographic is terribly sensitive to insults as well, especially from those they perceive as their betters (as people used to say). I think it stems from the terrible confusion an uneducated or less intelligent person must feel -- there always seems to be something going on you don't understand, so the easiest way to deal with it and maintain your personal dignity is to make fun of it or put it down. And I say this with love, as someone with family members who were using an outhouse well into the 1970s.

re: #92 buster bunny

You going to use that gun on them?

re: #76 buster bunny

I quote from the rules posted above:

Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.

re: #106 ShanghaiEd

So you're saying you get to pick the sources that apply to your argument? You win, hands down.

No, I am saying I don't rely on wiki for anything that has a political component to the debate. And AGW is political to the core.

There are lots of other sources available.

re: #104 Iron Fist

word

re: #96 HarryTheHawk

I don't reject AGW theory because of the messenger. I reject AGW theory because it's based on junk science promoted by politicians.

Gore just adds a comedic element to the "debate".

Look at it this way. There are numerous "think tanks" that have spent billions of dollars to convey exactly the point of view you're stating. What are the chances you've come upon that attitude strictly by personal investigation into sources that have not been co-opted by those billions?

re: #114 Iron Fist

Think of it as evolution in action, as that is what it really is. Some species will go extinc, but that, too, is nothing new. 99.9% of all the species that have lived on this planet are now extinct.

Extinction happens. That is the way it works.

I agree. Doesn't mean we should disregard how we might be contributing to our own demise.

re: #112 FurryOldGuyJeans

No, I am saying I don't rely on wiki for anything that has a political component to the debate. And AGW is political to the core.

There are lots of other sources available.

What non-political sources do you use to find information about global warming? How do you know they're non-political?

re: #94 Iron Fist

You may interested in this.

re: #108 Thanos

It's information, do you disagree with the statements? Prove them wrong, easy enough if they are false .

Put up or shut up.

A stopped watch is right twice a day, so should we all throw away working clocks and watches? Wiki has a bias I will not countenance no matter what. There are lots of other sources, wiki has no credibility for me.

That's it, folks. Anyone who posts a comment talking about shooting people is going to lose their LGF account. Period. I will not stand for this at my website, and I'm not going to just delete those comments any more -- I'll just block the account. I'm tired of people abusing my site, and I'm not going to give any more warnings on this subject.

re: #114 Iron Fist
One day humans too will evolve our way into extinction. Extinction is a natural function of evolution. From the atom to the planet and everything in between will all be gone, someday.

(not literally gone because nothing ever really goes away, it just changes form)

re: #112 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are links at the bottom of the page that you can follow to find out the facts.

If I sound pissed off about this, by the way, it's because I am.

re: #117 ShanghaiEd

What non-political sources do you use to find information about global warming? How do you know they're non-political?

I will not use wiki as a source, period. Any other source gets at a bare minimum a skeptical once over.

re: #122 Thanos

There are links at the bottom of the page that you can follow to find out the facts.

Ah, now you point out the one good thing I do use wiki for, as a clearing house for further investigation.

re: #119 FurryOldGuyJeans

Singer has stated that satellite data does not confirm that there's been a rise in temperature this century.
Satellite data does confirm a rise in temperature this century.

Start with that.

(you can get to the fact that he's funded by the moonies and all his books are published by the moonies later, first work with the facts if you can refute them.)

Very nice video, very well written.

But of course, those who most need it, won't listen to or accept a word of it.

An English accent is both a million bucks in Manhattan. Unless, of course, you're Irish!

re: #123 Charles

If I sound pissed off about this, by the way, it's because I am.

I can't imagine the stress you're under, what with hate mail, death threats, wishes for your suicide, etc. etc.

We only know what we see here; I'm positive there is much more that you are aware of that we never see.

You are taking the right tack and the right tone, imo, in keeping out those comments that advocate violence.

re: #112 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yeah, like this one.

re: #67 ShanghaiEd

"How cold the vacancy
When the phantoms are gone
And the shaken realist
First sees reality..."

I may use that for my epitaph.

re: #124 FurryOldGuyJeans

I will not use wiki as a source, period. Any other source gets at a bare minimum a skeptical once over.

Could you give me one non-political source you refer to, often, for reliable information on climate change? And how do you determine if a source is political or not?

re: #102 wrenchwench

re: #100 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That shoe fits.

/omg, not ME ... I hope

I seriously doubt that you would still be at LGF if it were you. One of my biases results from a biographical oddity: I have never really been part of the middle class. My dad made decent money as a firefighter and truck driver but he had nine children so you can imagine what the grocery bills and shoe costs alone were. My mom didn't work because managing the mob was a full-time job and then some. Through no fault of their own, my parents were not well-educated, and that had a bearing on perceptions of status as well.

I joined the army straight out of high school and later went to school on the GI Bill. I was a struggling student for years, with all sorts of odd jobs (some very odd). Then, as a graduate, my apparent status suddenly skipped several levels, mostly because I was making a lot of money in oil exploration. I know what it's like to be poor, at least in the sense of not driving to school in a new car, and I know what it is like to be well off, but I have only a hazy notion of what the middle is like.

re: #24 Thanos

Those who can face the real universe unfiltered by bias are few and far between; most of us can't -- but we should always try to as hard as we can. That means seeking evidence that's contrary to your assumptions, and being willing to declare yourself wrong when faced with facts.

I'll go further and accept the pomo assumption that NOBODY can avoid bias. Funny thing is, nobody can fly, either, we're all too biased towards surrender to gravity, but we get by that with a little discipline and effort.

re: #134 Shiplord Kirel

Very interesting perspective. Thanks.

/you're in Lubbock, and in the awl bidness ... who'd've thunk!

It's not the data's fault it's been hijacked by people pushing an agenda.

re: #126 Thanos

Singer has stated that satellite data does not confirm that there's been a rise in temperature this century.
Satellite data does confirm a rise in temperature this century.

Start with that.

(you can get to the fact that he's funded by the moonies and all his books are published by the moonies later, first work with the facts if you can refute them.)

And I can counter with the fact that NASA had to correct 120 years of bad data which had resulted in 1998 being declared the warmest year on record:

NASA Backtracks on 1998 Warmest Year Claim

Or:

UW-Milwaukee Study Could Realign Climate Change Theory
Scientists Claim Earth Is Undergoing Natural Climate Shift

Or even:

Air pollution helps plants blunt climate change: study

The science is not settled, there are too many questions left unanswered, the causes of climate change are not understood and need to be studied.

Many of the arguments that keep coming up over and over in discussions about climate change are addressed in this series of articles:

Responses to the most common skeptical arguments on global warming.

re: #135 itellu3times

See the Yudkowsky article on cognitive biases that I posted above.

Powerful video. It not only enlightened me on my own belief flaws but also showed me how to correct them. I will be watching this video many more times.
Now I know why I spend such an inordinate amount of time on this website.
Thanks Charles !

re: #137 Sharmuta

It's not the data's fault it's been hijacked by people pushing an agenda.

I have doubts about some of the data. More needs to be gathered and collated.

Guys, the earth heats and cools on the grand time scale and always has and always will. If we are in a warming trend or cooling trendor a cooling trend is no reason to get excited. But living 'gree' so to speak, with as little impact as possible while still living our lives to the fullest is just smart. I dont believe in the whacked out political greenies anymore than I believe in the over zealous anti greenies. Living a livable low impact on the earth life is good for all of us because it makes life more comfortable. Living a high impact earth life is bad because it makes life more miserable. Forget politics and all of the for and against arguments.

It appears some want to live a high impact life just to get back at the liberal weenies. as well it appears some want to live a low impact life to put the anti greennies nose in it.

Live as low impact as you comfortably can and be happier because it makes life easier for all of us.

Here's a better link (some of the links at that page are dead):

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

The only thing I'm going to shoot is the breeze...
*whistling quietly*

re: #135 itellu3times

I'll go further and accept the pomo assumption that NOBODY can avoid bias. Funny thing is, nobody can fly, either, we're all too biased towards surrender to gravity, but we get by that with a little discipline and effort.

I've developed the ability to fly in my dreams, but sometimes can't fly as high (altitude) as I want to.

/*grin* ... am I making progress?

re: #146 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I've developed the ability to fly in my dreams, but sometimes can't fly as high (altitude) as I want to.

/*grin* ... am I making progress?

You have that dream too?

pimf

My computer is getting old. It spend most of its time on the floor next to my guitar processor so it gets dirty. Some letters are sticky. Please be patient with all of my typos.

re: #133 Iron Fist

I disagree with you in part and I agree with you in part. Did you read down to:

Human activities have altered the chemical composition of the atmosphere through the buildup of greenhouse gases – primarily carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide. The heat-trapping property of these gases is undisputed although uncertanties exist about exactly how Earth's climate responds to them. According to the U.S. Climate Change Science Program ([Link: www.climatescience.gov),...] factors such as aerosols, land use change and others may play important roles in climate change, but their influence is highly uncertain at the present time.

So, there is no question - contrary to your belief - that we have played a role.

As to agreeing with you in part, many people continue to behave in conspicuous ways that are at odds with what they preach. It's destructive in more ways than one.

re: #115 ShanghaiEd

I confess - most of my sources come from the internets.

re: #136 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Very interesting perspective. Thanks.

/you're in Lubbock, and in the awl bidness ... who'd've thunk!

One thing that I just can't wrap my mind around is that there are petroleum geologists who are young earth creationists, or at least who claim to be. I guess they are so compartmentalized mentally that they can understand the physical structures without realizing the extent to which those structures scream contradiction at their creationist ideology.

re: #145 LGoPs

shoot ... breeze

Please don't pass wind unless you open a window in here.
*cough*

re: #144 Charles

Here's a better link (some of the links at that page are dead):

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Charles, I will peruse that site when I have some more time, thanks for posting it. I think the vast majority of rational people agree with Global Warming, I know I do. My skepticism is not with the fact that the earth warms and cools, it is with how much of an impact the human race is having on this natural cycle. Global Warming is a fact, how much man is causing the warming this time around is still up for debate and until the science is trully settled, I'll continue to be sketical but also inquisitive and open-minded as I strive to find answers.

re: #132 ShanghaiEd

Could you give me one non-political source you refer to, often, for reliable information on climate change? And how do you determine if a source is political or not?

Not going to find one. I just don't use wiki as a sole unimpeachable source.

re: #138 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sorry you haven't countered what the proposition was with any of that.

Singer said satellite data shows that temperature hasn't risen this century, when it clearly does.

I'm saying Singer Lied. You haven't shown me proof that he didn't.

Also, please note that "PRWIRE" is a dumping ground for propaganda, much much worse than citing Wiki. It's CAIR's favorite news outlet for a reason.

re: #139 Charles

Unfortunately, Charles, many of the links at that page aren't working.

Wonderful video btw. Thanks for staying on point, Charles. I liked you even before I (or you) knew about LGF. Glad to see I was right back in 1976.

re: #151 Shiplord Kirel

One thing that I just can't wrap my mind around is that there are petroleum geologists who are young earth creationists, or at least who claim to be. I guess they are so compartmentalized mentally that they can understand the physical structures without realizing the extent to which those structures scream contradiction at their creationist ideology.

They don't have to know where oil and natural gas came from to know how to drill for the stuff.

re: #139 Charles

Many of the arguments that keep coming up over and over in discussions about climate change are addressed in this series of articles:

Responses to the most common skeptical arguments on global warming.

I will remain skeptical as long as there are exemptions for thirld world countries. If the situation is that dire, then there can be no exemptions, particularly for developing nations who pollute at levels far worse than America.
As long as they get a pass, I will question the ultimate motivation of those pushing for draconian restrictions on us.

re: #143 justdanny

Quit being so reasonable! ///

re: #151 Shiplord Kirel

One thing that I just can't wrap my mind around is that there are petroleum geologists who are young earth creationists, or at least who claim to be. I guess they are so compartmentalized mentally that they can understand the physical structures without realizing the extent to which those structures scream contradiction at their creationist ideology.

HA!
Incredible, but the compartmentalization is common.

re: #159 LGoPs

I will remain skeptical as long as there are exemptions for thirld world countries. If the situation is that dire, then there can be no exemptions, particularly for developing nations who pollute at levels far worse than America.
As long as they get a pass, I will question the ultimate motivation of those pushing for draconian restrictions on us.

I keep asking myself if the situation was that dire...would Al Gore be driving a Prius to every speaking engagement?

re: #155 Thanos

Sorry you haven't countered what the proposition was with any of that.

Singer said satellite data shows that temperature hasn't risen this century, when it clearly does.

I'm saying Singer Lied. You haven't shown me proof that he didn't.

Also, please note that "PRWIRE" is a dumping ground for propaganda, much much worse than citing Wiki. It's CAIR's favorite news outlet for a reason.

I don't care what Singer said, or didn't say. I will not use wiki as an unimpeachable source. That is the alpha and omega.

Hell- mainly I try to keep my energy consumption low because I don't want to pay a lot on utility bills.

re: #163 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, man up!

re: #159 LGoPs

I will remain skeptical as long as there are exemptions for thirld world countries. If the situation is that dire, then there can be no exemptions, particularly for developing nations who pollute at levels far worse than America.

You have to understand that there are practical issues to dealing with developing countries. The demand that every hovel in Uganda is equipped with a million dollar carbon scrubber every time they burn coal to cook wild game is just not practical.

re: #162 Fenway_Nation

I keep asking myself if the situation was that dire...would Al Gore be driving a Prius to every speaking engagement?

If he'd just stop bloviating so much and exhaling all that CO2, the peril would lessen by at least an order of magnitude...
/

Furry, I've done more against Al Gore than most people, but just because I don't like his political agenda doesn't mean that Singer is automagically right. Singer is also a paid shill for a political org run by the moonies.

Here's just one article I wrote about Gore.

Gore lied, People Died

It didn't get much play on the right but the left picked some of the memes from it up and Gore's mouth went shut for quite a while.

Gee, what a brilliant little video. I can't wait until Rush picks this up and does a show around it.
//
Okay, maybe I'll wait. And wait. And wait...

An off-topic note to Killian Bundy.

I put little Roswell in an ice chest till I could take him to the grooming service that operates the pet cemetery this morning. The owner made a special trip to receive him. She has the facilities to keep him until we conduct the burial Tuesday. He was a wonderful dog and I will miss dearly. I am just glad he lived so long and left us with so little pain or illness.

re: #166 carefulnow

Oh, man up!

Man up about what? That I should use wiki as the only source of all accurate knowledge? Nope, not a chance.

re: #140 Thanos

See the Yudkowsky article on cognitive biases that I posted above.

... on previous thread? I don't see it here.

But my point is not that an individual can learn the feng shui of science and avoid individual bias, so much as the process itself is constructed to work in spite of it all.

re: #154 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not going to find one. I just don't use wiki as a sole unimpeachable source.

So you're saying that you, alone, get to what sources are reliable? And you refuse to name one that you consider reliable, because...we might discuss it?

I'm seriously trying to understand where you're coming from, here, and I keep hitting a brick wall and flashing back to the instructional video Charles posted as the basis for this thread. Did you watch that video and, if so, what did you think about its validity?

re: #163 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm not using them for an unimpeachable source. Show me some satellite data that says the temperature hasn't risen this century on average over several years.

re: #171 Shiplord Kirel

Sorry to hear about that.

I found a dramatic lowering of my utility bill just in turning off my computer when I leave the house instead of allowing the time gap on the standby feature to kick in and turn it off later. A number of little things can add up to a lot.

re: #169 Thanos

Furry, I've done more against Al Gore than most people, but just because I don't like his political agenda doesn't mean that Singer is automagically right. Singer is also a paid shill for a political org run by the moonies.

Here's just one article I wrote about Gore.

Gore lied, People Died

It didn't get much play on the right but the left picked some of the memes from it up and Gore's mouth went shut for quite a while.

And I don't care about Singer in this instance. I won't use wiki as a source is all I am saying. NOTHING ELSE!

I use wiki as a source as much as I use WND.

re: #173 itellu3times

Here you go, sorry I should have just relinked it.

[Link: yudkowsky.net...]

re: #167 Killgore Trout

How's about holding factories in India, Russia, Brazil or China to the same emission standards that are being proposed for American industries?

re: #165 Sharmuta

FWIW - we've decreased ours by 30%. No foolin'. It can be done, and it doesn't mean you have to sit around in your house wearing fuzzy bunny slippers to stay warm.

Although I really like fuzzy bunny slippers. Nothing against bunny slippers.

re: #160 Sharmuta

We all have to live here. I am a republican who works with republicans every day that I cant stand to be around. I am an atheist who understands the greatness of the social influence of Judeo Christian morals and ethics n western culture, my culture. 99% (it seems) of my closest most loved people are liberal weenies. There may be reprehensible acts of idiocy on the part of the left but I see some on the right too.
I dont suggest anyone move to the right or middle but damn, I know I dnt have the patent on being right. There is something good to be said about a lot of ideas, no matter where they come from. Of course its when shit gets tied up in agendas and ulterior motives that it all goes to hell. Living greener isnt bad. Living ungreen isnt good. Facts.

re: #177 Sharmuta

I found a dramatic lowering of my utility bill just in turning off my computer when I leave the house instead of allowing the time gap on the standby feature to kick in and turn it off later. A number of little things can add up to a lot.

You must have a very large, hot computer - or a very efficient refrigerator!

You can turn down the time gap, y'know. I just did that, now that I finally got the flat screen to replace my ancient CRT, it uses less power when on, and comes back on much faster when off.

re: #175 Thanos

I'm not using them for an unimpeachable source. Show me some satellite data that says the temperature hasn't risen this century on average over several years.

Then we are in agreement more than you want to believe.

re: #178 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well you seemed to be trying to defend a denialist shill paid for by the moonies, sorry if I was mistaken.

Now do you think temperature has gone up on average over this century or not?

re: #165 Sharmuta
But I bet if you had wads of money you wouldnt have a beautiful gas fountain in the front yard spewing flames twenty feet wide and fifty feet high 24/7.

re: #178 FurryOldGuyJeans

Look- I use wiki links when I can see the footnotes link to credible sources. I usually use those sources to back up my points. There is nothing wrong with wiki as a source when it's verifiable by external links. I find wiki to be a good starting point to point me in a direction for something more substantial.

re: #185 Thanos

Well you seemed to be trying to defend a denialist shill paid for by the moonies, sorry if I was mistaken.

That you think so is not my problem.

re: #177 Sharmuta

I carefully watching the energy costs of my hydroponic experiments. I'm using a system that uses 5 watts per bucket. Each bucket can hold 4 or five tomatoes, peas, peppers, etc and up to 12-15 strawberries. I figure 10-15 buckets (the energy usage of a light bulb or two) can provide most of the food needs for 2 maybe 3 people.

re: #187 Sharmuta

Look- I use wiki links when I can see the footnotes link to credible sources. I usually use those sources to back up my points. There is nothing wrong with wiki as a source when it's verifiable by external links. I find wiki to be a good starting point to point me in a direction for something more substantial.

Yes, they are a good STARTING point to better information.

re: #183 itellu3times

I could lower the time gap, or I could just take a second and turn the damn thing off.

As usual, a good video from this author. Notice he states the use of double blind procedure is critical in arriving at factual truth. I did not see anything about peer review. Bias contaminates science I would say the IPCC and Gore are biased. And iirc Darwin's driving ideology was anti-slavery.

re: #179 Thanos

Here you go, sorry I should have just relinked it.

[Link: yudkowsky.net...]

Looks like a pretty good article, tho I almost clicked right off when I saw it associated with "The Singularity Institute of Palo Alto", that I mostly consider pro-science nutballs.

re: #180 Fenway_Nation

How's about holding factories in India, Russia, Brazil or China to the same emission standards that are being proposed for American industries?

Probably not practical. They operate on just a tiny fraction of the budget of an American or European factory. That's also why there are no Prius dealerships in those countries. Nobody can afford it.

re: #189 Killgore Trout

a brief btw OT -- how's your neighbor?

re: #191 Sharmuta

I could lower the time gap, or I could just take a second and turn the damn thing off.

Well, y'know, power-cycling ... mumble, ...

re: #155 Thanos

I'm looking at a Goddard Institute for Space Studies webpage and it says that 2007 tied 1998 for the warmest year on record.

It also has this at the very end:

The data processing flaw did not alter the ordering of the warmest years on record and the global ranks were unaffected. In the contiguous 48 states, the statistical tie among 1934, 1998 and 2005 as the warmest year(s) was unchanged. In the current analysis, in the flawed analysis, and in the published GISS analysis, 1934 is the warmest year in the contiguous states (but not globally) by an amount (magnitude of the order of 0.01°C) that is an order of magnitude smaller than the certainty.

[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

re: #167 Killgore Trout

You have to understand that there are practical issues to dealing with developing countries. The demand that every hovel in Uganda is equipped with a million dollar carbon scrubber every time they burn coal to cook wild game is just not practical.

Not trying to be flip but it doesn't matter. If the very survival of mankind and the planet are at stake, then everybody chips in. If they are not, then it's time to back off the draconian policies and have some reasonable discussion and study and spend energy on doing honest cost benefit analyses.
By the way, I was thinking of China and India's contribution more than grass huts in Uganda...

re: #195 pre-Boomer Marine brat

She's doing ok, I guess. I got some good charity recommendations from my ex-boss last week. The tough part is getting someone to contact her instead of me giving her the information to contact them. I don't want to be diractly involved if I can avoid it. I think I have something worked out. I should know in the next few weeks.

re: #200 Iron Fist

With Obama's new mandates about gas milage, it may come to be that most people in America won't be able to afford an automobile. There's only so far that you can go in litening the automobile. To reach his stated goals will just about turn being a hybrid into an unwritten mandate. And most people in America can't afford a Prius.

I know I can't.

So now who is supposed to be keeping the 500 MPG carburetor/fuel injector off the market? The oil companies? The auto industry?

Both lose out with a decrease in sales.

re: #196 itellu3times

Was just trying to use it as an example. The back-up settings to turn off my computer are great, but when I started just taking a moment to turn it off myself, I found it saved me money.

re: #199 Killgore Trout

She's doing ok, I guess. I got some good charity recommendations from my ex-boss last week. The tough part is getting someone to contact her instead of me giving her the information to contact them. I don't want to be diractly involved if I can avoid it. I think I have something worked out. I should know in the next few weeks.

Sounds good. I recall you mentioning the ex-boss (with whom you had such a ... heh ... "close relationship"). A stroke of luck that he could give some good recommendations!

Very best wishes

re: #144 Charles

Wow. That is by far the most comprehensive and accessible site on the subject I've seen yet. I've bookmarked it, and will be using the dickens out of it. Thank you!

Anyway. QualiaSoup creates a great deal of accurate, compelling, and diplomatic videos.

Charles,

Did you have a fro back then?

re: #200 Iron Fist

With Obama's new mandates about gas milage, it may come to be that most people in America won't be able to afford an automobile. There's only so far that you can go in litening the automobile. To reach his stated goals will just about turn being a hybrid into an unwritten mandate. And most people in America can't afford a Prius.

I know I can't.

Sounds scary. Do you have a link for that?

I don't need no stinkin' evidence!

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!

More on satellite data, from a real science paper Furry, now since you felt it necessary to jump into a conversation where I was simply pointing out the fact that the book being pimped was biased, do you have data to contradict?

[Link: www.sciencemag.org...]

Here's some more

[Link: epa.gov...]

re: #202 Sharmuta

Was just trying to use it as an example.

It's good, sometimes the simplest is the best!

re: #208 jcm

I don't need no stinkin' evidence!

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!

Nah, it's Schroedinger's Cat.

re: #208 jcm

I don't need no stinkin' evidence!

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!

*rolls eyes*
Ask and we shalt receive!

/Hi there!

re: #209 Thanos

Thank you, something to read that isn't from wiki.

re: #197 Gus 802

Thanks Gus, I was getting there. I first wanted to make sure that everyone understood that Singer & Co. at SEPP are liars and not to be trusted.

re: #214 Thanos

Thanks Gus, I was getting there. I first wanted to make sure that everyone understood that Singer & Co. at SEPP are liars and not to be trusted.

Just as much as I distrust wiki, ok?

re: #177 Sharmuta

I found a big savings on my utility bills when I decided to shut off the water between showers. It was a bit of an inconvenience at first, but I got used to it. Give it a try!

re: #215 FurryOldGuyJeans

Noted, but irrelevant.

re: #216 Kenneth

I found a big savings on my utility bills when I decided to shut off the water between showers. It was a bit of an inconvenience at first, but I got used to it. Give it a try!

LOL!

I can sewer you would.

re: #212 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*rolls eyes*
Ask and we shalt receive!

/Hi there!

Roll your eyes at the one true faith!
Heretic!
Thou shalt be cast off the south end of the the of a north bound turtle into an infinite pile of turtle dung for all eternity for your unbelief!

Afternoon!

Despite my adherence to Turtle Stackology, great vid by QualiaSoup!

re: #200 Iron Fist

With Obama's new mandates about gas milage, it may come to be that most people in America won't be able to afford an automobile. There's only so far that you can go in litening the automobile. ...

Aha, well, as to that, I wonder. I suspect car companies can lighten cars a lot, maintain size and comfort, gain a ton of mileage, sell at about the same price, and even maintain safety - but at a cost in repairability, as a lot of high-tech materials just splinter when they fail, rather than bend reversibly like good old iron.

I'd like to see my Honda Accord taken down from the current 3300 pounds to something under 2400, maybe even under 2000.

I will note, on the other side, that putting dual power systems in a car like a Prius *increases* the weight and limits the *real* gains in efficiency.

re: #216 Kenneth

I found a big savings on my utility bills when I decided to shut off the water between showers. It was a bit of an inconvenience at first, but I got used to it. Give it a try!

I already do that. I live alone. That would be a long time to leave the shower running.

re: #174 ShanghaiEd

So you're saying that you, alone, get to what sources are reliable? And you refuse to name one that you consider reliable, because...we might discuss it?

I'm seriously trying to understand where you're coming from, here, and I keep hitting a brick wall and flashing back to the instructional video Charles posted as the basis for this thread. Did you watch that video and, if so, what did you think about its validity?

No, I just won't personally use wiki itself as a source. I find them as fair and balanced at times as WND.

Throw out reputable science links and you will get my attention. My sole objection in this instance is using wiki as a source, nothing else.

re: #219 jcm

Turtle Stackology

Does that make you a Stackophile or a Stackopile?

/uncertain about more than just the grammar

re: #219 jcm

Roll your eyes at the one true faith!
Heretic!
Thou shalt be cast off the south end of the the of a north bound turtle into an infinite pile of turtle dung for all eternity for your unbelief!

Afternoon!

Despite my adherence to Turtle Stackology, great vid by QualiaSoup!

The turtle stack is in trouble.

re: #223 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Does that make you a Stackophile or a Stackopile?

/uncertain about more than just the grammar

Hmmm I must consult our High Priest...

re: #225 wrenchwench

The turtle stack is in trouble.

ROFLMAO!

Charles f'n rocks

re: #214 Thanos

Thanks Gus, I was getting there. I first wanted to make sure that everyone understood that Singer & Co. at SEPP are liars and not to be trusted.

You're welcome. I am not very familiar with GW but from personal experience I do know that the climate has changed. They already set record temperatures in New Jersey in April with temperature rising into the 90s. In another year New Jersey experienced a strange and almost balmy winter. The typical afternoon thunderstorms in the Denver region have even seemed to have vanished.

I trust Goddard being that they are a part of NASA. Whether it's AGW or NGW (natural global warming) could be argued but it would require data to support or refute. A thought in that what if it is natural and if we do take steps to do "our part" could it be averted?

re: #221 Sharmuta

I already do that. I live alone. That would be a long time to leave the shower running.

(will NOT make the comment I'm thinking of)
(will NOT make the comment I'm thinking of)
(will NOT make the comment I'm thinking of)
(will NOT make the comment I'm thinking of)
(will NOT make the comment I'm thinking of)
(will NOT make the comment I'm thinking of)

re: #221 Sharmuta

umm... forgot the sarc tag

re: #228 justdanny

Thats not Charles, it`s Icarus Johnson.

re: #231 Kenneth

Actually- couples showering together can be a resource saver...

Go Lakers!

See y'all at halftime ... or when one team or the other leads by 20+.

re: #226 jcm

Hmmm I must consult our High Priest...

so THAT'S our beloved un-dead one!

re: #233 Sharmuta

Actually- couples showering together can be a resource saver...

*need a cold shower now*

re: #216 Kenneth

I found a big savings on my utility bills when I decided to shut off the water between showers. It was a bit of an inconvenience at first, but I got used to it. Give it a try!

I am looking at my electric bill, it came out to $54.79. I used 207 kWh @ 8.6087 cents per for a total of $17.82. The rest is taxes & surcharges.

juss sayin.

re: #232 Kenneth

Thats Charles. Charles Icarus Johnson Is Charles. Our Charles.

Here is Charles matching licks and trading licks with Stanlet Clarke.

Stanley Clarke.

And heres audio of some of CJs work.

re: #228 justdanny

Charles f'n rocks

I don't know about those orange overalls though...

I will not be held responsible for the cold shower needs of others. ;p

re: #202 Sharmuta

Was just trying to use it as an example. The back-up settings to turn off my computer are great, but when I started just taking a moment to turn it off myself, I found it saved me money.

By my calculations, turning off my laptop computer saves me 1.5¢ per hour.

re: #242 Thanos

I don't know about those orange overalls though...

Are those Carharts? Overalls.

re: #213 FurryOldGuyJeans

Thank you, something to read that isn't from wiki.

If I promise never to use the word Wiki again, would you recommend one information source you consider to be reliable on the subject of climate change? Pretty please?

{Echo-o-o-o}

re: #242 Thanos

I don't know about those orange overalls though...

I'm too conservative to tolerate the hair...

///

re: #242 Thanos
What were you wearing back then? early 80s. I had a frikken mullet back then. For a time the mullet was very new wave.

re: #229 Gus 802

You're welcome. I am not very familiar with GW but from personal experience I do know that the climate has changed. They already set record temperatures in New Jersey in April with temperature rising into the 90s. In another year New Jersey experienced a strange and almost balmy winter. The typical afternoon thunderstorms in the Denver region have even seemed to have vanished.

I trust Goddard being that they are a part of NASA. Whether it's AGW or NGW (natural global warming) could be argued but it would require data to support or refute. A thought in that what if it is natural and if we do take steps to do "our part" could it be averted?

Definitely cooler this year with sunspots gone, but the heat could be back shortly after they start back up.. (and we all should hope they do, we wouldn't want another mini ice age...)

re: #242 Thanos

I don't know about those orange overalls though...

Or the hair.

/:D ... notice my nic

re: #242 Thanos

I don't know about those orange overalls though...

Back in the 80s I'd wear orange stuff; turquoise; yellow was big. Permed hair. Espadrilles.

Nooo!

/Mijami Vice

re: #237 brookly red

I am looking at my electric bill, it came out to $54.79. I used 207 kWh @ 8.6087 cents per for a total of $17.82. The rest is taxes & surcharges.

juss sayin.

Just wait until cap and trade kicks in.

re: #249 Thanos

Definitely cooler this year with sunspots gone, but the heat could be back shortly after they start back up.. (and we all should hope they do, we wouldn't want another mini ice age...)

Which could happen as the records show. Hate to use the cliche but it's really a "delicate balance." I don't like hot weather unless I'm boating or by a large body of water.

re: #252 screaming_eagle

Just wait until cap and trade kicks in.

Nothing compared to the personal CO2 monitors. Exceed your quota and you'll have to hold your breath till you get a new quota.

re: #254 jcm

Nothing compared to the personal CO2 monitors. Exceed your quota and you'll have to hold your breath till you get a new quota.

That's good practice for waterboarding.

//

re: #250 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Or the hair.

/:D ... notice my nic

I LOVE that hair. But I'm in my forties and a musician, so it looks very normal to me.

re: #248 justdanny

What were you wearing back then? early 80s. I had a frikken mullet back then. For a time the mullet was very new wave.

I was the only mullet guy in Fairbanks Alaska. I had the Eno style. Later I just got to looking like Charles Manson would have looked like if Bill Murray were his dad...

Embarrassing photo, you can see the mullet flying in the back

re: #247 jcm

I'm too conservative to tolerate the hair...

///

Boot camp, second day -- marched (er, "herded") to the barbers.

The barber looked at my crewcut and said something like "You're no fun"
/actually said something like that, then took a few desultory swipes

re: #91 Shiplord Kirel

Wow! And BTW, it's not just a southern thing. I live in the upper midwest, and I see it all around me. Prideful ignorance is a scary thing!

re: #252 screaming_eagle

Just wait until cap and trade kicks in.

(deleted)

re: #258 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Boot camp, second day -- marched (er, "herded") to the barbers.

The barber looked at my crewcut and said something like "You're no fun"
/actually said something like that, then took a few desultory swipes

AF, first day guy had some huge side burns (dates me) barber asks him if he'd like to keep them. Guy's face lights up and says "sure."

Barber swipes 'em up off, and hands the guy the hair.

We all crack up, at which point our TI goes ape shit about our laughing...

Push up city!