Appeals Court Upholds Tobacco Racketeering Rulings

US News • Views: 2,220

On Friday the American tobacco industry suffered a huge blow, as the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia upheld earlier rulings that the industry violated federal racketeering laws in a decades-long scheme to deceive the public about the dangers of smoking.

The court affirmed most remedies that a trial judge imposed against tobacco companies in 2006, which included restrictions on tobacco marketing and a requirement that the industry make corrective public statements about the health effects and addictiveness of smoking.

The appeals court, however, rejected the government’s request for additional penalties against cigarette makers. Among other things, the government and anti-smoking groups wanted to force the tobacco industry to fund a $10 billion national smoking-cessation campaign.

The appeals court also affirmed an earlier ruling that the government couldn’t force the tobacco companies to forfeit up to $280 billion in profits.

In a unanimous 92-page ruling, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said there was ample evidence to conclude that the tobacco industry intended to deceive the public about the dangers of smoking.

The court said the tobacco companies “knew about the negative health consequences of smoking, the addictiveness and manipulation of nicotine, the harmfulness of secondhand smoke, and the concept of smoker compensation, which makes light cigarettes no less harmful than regular cigarettes and possibly more.”

The court also said the government had adequately proven that the tobacco industry was likely to commit future racketeering violations unless restrictions were imposed.

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375 comments
1 formercorpsman  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:08:15pm

I have no problem at all with this.

2 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:10:04pm

Sounds like both big tobacco and the government lost.

3 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:11:01pm

The only problem I have with this is the government is going to benefit both ways from the tobacco industry, by enacting even more taxes and from more industry settlements. They need to just make tobacco a controlled substance.

4 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:12:56pm

What if the US Tobacco industry said "frak it" and moved ALL their operations overseas?

5 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:13:00pm

I know a kid of one the big time anti-tobacco lawyers. Kid smokes.

6 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:14:16pm

And similarly, NORML wants you to believe marijuana use & abuse has no down side.

7 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:14:37pm

If tobacco was known by the government as long as has been reported why are they not on trial for racketeering? They knowing let a harmful substance be sold to generate tax revenues.

8 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:15:04pm

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

Because they're the government, that's why.

9 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:15:26pm

re: #4 Macker

What if the US Tobacco industry said "frak it" and moved ALL their operations overseas?

* * * *
It's a biological weapon. Deploy it against all enemies foreign & domestic.

10 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:15:45pm

re: #6 alegrias

And similarly, NORML wants you to believe marijuana use & abuse has no down side.

The same can be said about NARAL and abortions.

11 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:16:00pm

re: #8 Macker

Because they're the government, that's why.

So we just have to accept criminal acts because its the government? BALDERDASH!

12 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:16:12pm

re: #6 alegrias

I'm waiting for big liquor to get sued.

13 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:16:32pm

What is it about the term "death sticks" people don't understand?

14 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:17:13pm

re: #11 FurryOldGuyJeans

So we just have to accept criminal acts because its the government? BALDERDASH!

You know that and I know that, and I forgot my sarc tag.

15 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:17:34pm

re: #13 alegrias

Didn't that term come into public use with Star Wars?

16 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:18:44pm

re: #10 Macker

The same can be said about NARAL and abortions.

* * * * * *
Agree completely there can be deep, sometimes delayed, psychological consequences to what is billed as a simple procedure.

17 gander  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:18:52pm

That's just depressing. I need a smoke.

18 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:19:23pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

I'm waiting for big liquor to get sued.

Too many people want to drink. I seriously doubt seeing the same level of campaign against alcohol as we see against tobacco.

All the circumventing of Prohibition showed that alcohol is acceptable to many people.

19 Danny  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:19:40pm

I used to smoke 2 packs of Camel filterless a day. Never questioned that it was bad for my health. Didn't much care, frankly. Can't say I knew anyone who really thought it was safe, either.

20 formercorpsman  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:19:41pm

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes, that is a valid argument. Thus, in a nutshell, why I am against government intervention.

A very tangled web. They take on the responsibility of covering health care cost for citizens, (Medicare) subsidize tobacco farmers, and then tax tobacco companies, buyers, retailers, thereafter taking them to court.

I have no love loss for the tobacco companies. THEY chemically manipulated their products for the explicit purpose of getting people dependent.

But, I do not see the government as some knight riding a white horse either.

Smoking serves no purpose. None. It kills people in the end.

21 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:19:45pm

I wish the government would get out of everyone's business. As far as taxes are concerned for all of the indignately righteous non-smokers out there, just wait. They'll be coming after something you enjoy consuming sooner than you think.

22 Mithrax  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:20:08pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

I'm waiting for big liquor to get sued.

You mean Booze doesn't make me popular with the ladies and doesn't improve my dancing?!?!

23 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:20:17pm

re: #15 Macker

Didn't that term come into public use with Star Wars?

Cigarettes have long been called "coffin nails". When creating the term for a fictional narcotic in the Star Wars universe, they were playing off that.

24 kansas  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:20:17pm

The court said the tobacco companies “knew about the negative health consequences of smoking,

while innocents sucking on 2 or 3 packs a day, hacking and coughing up lungers were caught completely by surprise./

25 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:20:29pm
26 The Other Les  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:20:32pm

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

The only problem I have with this is the government is going to benefit both ways from the tobacco industry, by enacting even more taxes and from more industry settlements. They need to just make tobacco a controlled substance.

Which leads to another PROHIBITION system that will not work.

It's time to let evolution take its course on this one.

BTW: The Motivator of the Day.

27 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:20:56pm

re: #15 Macker

Didn't that term come into public use with Star Wars?

* * * *
I think me old Korean/Vietnam war veteran father used the term "death stick" from his G.I. days. He used to trade his cigarette ration for stuff he liked, because he didn't smoke.

Pop also considered soft drinks "belly wash" and bad food "fatty food." Strict military disciplinarian diet for us.

28 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:21:16pm

re: #21 Soona'

I wish the government would get out of everyone's business. As far as taxes are concerned for all of the indignately righteous non-smokers out there, just wait. They'll be coming after something you enjoy consuming sooner than you think.

First they came for the smokers, and I said nothing because I was not a smoker.

29 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:21:32pm

re: #21 Soona'

I wish the government would get out of everyone's business. As far as taxes are concerned for all of the indignately righteous non-smokers out there, just wait. They'll be coming after something you enjoy consuming sooner than you think.

Wouldn't it be funny if someone started taxing sugared soft drinks?
Nah, never happen.
/

30 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:21:43pm

re: #13 alegrias

What is it about the term "death sticks" people don't understand?

Whatever you want to call them is your business. Just don't be sticking you snotty nose in mine.

31 dmandman  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:21:52pm

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

Because Al Gore Sr was a major tobacco player in the growing and selling of said product and pooor pooor Al Grore Jr would have had to actually have earned his position in life. Congress couldn't have that terrible injustice happen could it. While next we will be talking about the Kennedy's fortune and illegal running of guns and booze during Prohibition (something about the RICO).

32 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:21:57pm

re: #20 formercorpsman

Smoking serves no purpose. None. It kills people in the end.

It keeps government flush in tax and lawsuit settlement monies. If they didn't have that revenue stream they would find other ways to pick our pockets.

33 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:22:14pm

re: #22 Mithrax

You mean Booze doesn't make me popular with the ladies and doesn't improve my dancing?!?!

Let me explain how booze works . . .

34 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:22:21pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

I'm waiting for big liquor to get sued.

* * *

Sin taxes are back. And you though "secular progressives" didn't believe in the concept of sin.

Bwahahah!

Next: Tax Dancing

35 formercorpsman  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:23:19pm

re: #32 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes, true. Therein lies the problem.

I think the government could use a cessation plan for tax consumption.

36 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:23:30pm

re: #26 The Other Les

Which leads to another PROHIBITION system that will not work.

It's time to let evolution take its course on this one.

BTW: The Motivator of the Day.

I didn't say make it illegal or ban it, government just needs to stop handing out tax bennies to the growers and obtaining taxes on it.

37 UberInfidel67  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:23:33pm

re: #21 Soona'

I wish the government would get out of everyone's business. As far as taxes are concerned for all of the indignately righteous non-smokers out there, just wait. They'll be coming after something you enjoy consuming sooner than you think.

That's what I say to my family members who think it is hilarious I pay through the nose for smokes. Then they came for the non-smokers......

38 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:23:46pm

re: #34 alegrias

Liquor, in most places, is already taxed higher than other items.

39 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:24:00pm
40 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:24:02pm

Wow ,,,, who knew ,, tobacco is bad for you

All those that are thrilled with this decision please note

McDONALDS IS BAD FOR YOU
KFC IS BAD FOR YOU
BUDWEISER IS BAD FOR YOU


Consider yourself 'informed" !

41 formercorpsman  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:24:49pm

re: #40 sattv4u2

You honor, I did not know that.

42 solomonpanting  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:24:55pm

re: #39 buzzsawmonkey

And yet grammar is going to hell in everyday conversation.

Some folks are just anti-semantic.

43 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:24:58pm

Another thing about the kid of the anti-tobacco lawyer. I mentioned his dad could sue McDonald's next. He didn't like that. LOL

44 formercorpsman  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:25:10pm

re: #41 formercorpsman

Amazing Buzz just made that post.

45 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:25:29pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

Liquor, in most places, is already taxed higher than other items.

And here in Washington State if you want something "harder" than beer or wine you have to go to a state-run store to get it.

As liberal as the state is the Blue Laws are still on the books and only SLOWLY being repealed.

46 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:26:04pm

re: #21 Soona'

I wish the government would get out of everyone's business. As far as taxes are concerned for all of the indignately righteous non-smokers out there, just wait. They'll be coming after something you enjoy consuming sooner than you think.

Interesting comment on this phenomenon, even though it's from an unfortunate source:

47 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:26:17pm

re: #40 sattv4u2

Wow ,,,, who knew ,, tobacco is bad for you

All those that are thrilled with this decision please note

McDONALDS IS BAD FOR YOU
KFC IS BAD FOR YOU
BUDWEISER IS BAD FOR YOU

Consider yourself 'informed" !

Life is the leading cause of death!

48 The Other Les  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:26:56pm

re: #34 alegrias

* * *

Sin taxes are back. And you though "secular progressives" didn't believe in the concept of sin.

Bwahahah!

Next: Tax Dancing

If you create a mechanism for taxing something, someone else will create a method of evading that tax.

[And suddenly the Pythonic phrase "I'd like to tax Raquel Welch" popped into Les' head.]

49 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:27:45pm

re: #47 FurryOldGuyJeans

Life is the leading cause of death!

If I had known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself!

50 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:27:45pm

re: #34 alegrias

* * *

Sin taxes are back. And you though "secular progressives" didn't believe in the concept of sin.

Bwahahah!

Next: Tax Dancing

Tax exercise. Think of all that nasty carbon dioxide that's polluting our air when people are breathing hard. Tax sex too.

51 solomonpanting  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:28:12pm

re: #47 FurryOldGuyJeans

Life is the leading cause of death!

That's why it's taxed so heavily.

52 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:28:19pm

re: #12 Sharmuta

They've already made some cursory skirmishes against fast food and other food industries. Alchohol is too big even though we all know it can be bad for you.

I smoked for 15 years. there was never a moment I didn't know it was bad for me, especially with continued and chronic use. I don't care what the tobacco company said, they want you to buy the stuff.

Government smells blood (money) and wants the dough. I'm cynical, they really aren't trying to 'protect' us.

53 The Other Les  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:28:22pm

re: #36 FurryOldGuyJeans

I didn't say make it illegal or ban it, government just needs to stop handing out tax bennies to the growers and obtaining taxes on it.

The phrase "controlled substance" usually means a ban on said substance.

54 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:28:30pm

re: #40 sattv4u2

Wow ,,,, who knew ,, tobacco is bad for you

All those that are thrilled with this decision please note

McDONALDS IS BAD FOR YOU
KFC IS BAD FOR YOU
BUDWEISER IS BAD FOR YOU

Consider yourself 'informed" !

Now we need to bail out McDonalds, KFC and Budweiser.

55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:29:38pm

I betcha China'd let Phillip Morris open up a really, really big factory there. India...

56 kansas  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:29:49pm

re: #50 Soona'

Tax exercise. Think of all that nasty carbon dioxide that's polluting our air when people are breathing hard. Tax sex too.


Bean tax or require Beeno at Mexican restaurants.

57 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:29:53pm
58 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:30:10pm

re: #53 The Other Les

The phrase "controlled substance" usually means a ban on said substance.

Controlled like prescription narcotics, but even going that route would create a criminal element willing to supply the product.

59 The Other Les  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:30:59pm

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

So all of those ads in the '40s and '50s which extolled the health benefits of cigarettes were just "puffery"?

Recommended by doctors of French Philosophy!

60 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:31:14pm

re: #52 BigPapa

They've already made some cursory skirmishes against fast food and other food industries. Alchohol is too big even though we all know it can be bad for you.

I smoked for 15 years. there was never a moment I didn't know it was bad for me, especially with continued and chronic use. I don't care what the tobacco company said, they want you to buy the stuff.

Government smells blood (money) and wants the dough. I'm cynical, they really aren't trying to 'protect' us.

I agree. If it was so bad, they'd ban it. They don't want to ban it because they make too much money off the taxes. They don't care about us- they care about the money they can get.

61 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:31:43pm

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I betcha China'd let Phillip Morris open up a really, really big factory there. India...

The industry makes most of their money off of overseas sales.

62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:31:58pm

re: #52 BigPapa

Alcohol is safe. They don't serve McDonalds or KFC on Wednesday nights at the White House.

63 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:32:06pm

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

So all of those ads in the '40s and '50s which extolled the health benefits of cigarettes were just "puffery"?

Yeah, they were the draw.

64 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:33:21pm

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

So all of those ads in the '40s and '50s which extolled the health benefits of cigarettes were just "puffery"?

Ack! More puns! What a drag!

65 Cato  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:34:07pm

re: #23 gmsc

Correct. No matter how much the tobacco companies lied, it was common knowledge that smoking didn't do you any good. In fact, people OVERESTIMATE the amount of harm it does to you.

Query: What percentage of lifelong smokers get lung cancer? Emphysema?

66 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:34:29pm

re: #61 Sharmuta

The industry makes most of their money off of overseas sales.

And spends most of it's money on USA employees salaries and benefits. I once had the stats on the numbers (thousands and thousands) of people just in North Carlona and Virginia that were working for tobacco companies

67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #57 buzzsawmonkey

So all of those ads in the '40s and '50s which extolled the health benefits of cigarettes were just "puffery"?

Seriously, Mario Lanza did some commercials for (IIRC) Lucky Strike. Voice felt better, smoother after a Lucky Strike.

Son of a bitch could sing though.

68 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:35:44pm

re: #61 Sharmuta

re: #66 sattv4u2

And spends most of it's money on USA employees salaries and benefits. I once had the stats on the numbers (thousands and thousands) of people just in North Carlona and Virginia that were working for tobacco companies

Not to mention the US based pension funds that make beucoup money off of it

69 Wild Knight  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:36:03pm

I don't like this at all. Whatever the merits of the case, I, an incorrigible lover of pipeweed, feel that this yet another tool/instrument for the politically-correct, NGOs and their like to use in their ceaseless war against tobacco. I really, REALLY enjoy smoking and, while aware of the dangers, am unapologetic about it. If this barrage of opprobrium persists, they're going to make my favourite herb illegal. Bastards.

70 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:36:20pm
71 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:37:06pm

re: #69 Wild Knight

Don't worry- they will not make tobacco illegal.

They make too much money off of it.

72 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:38:04pm
73 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:38:08pm

re: #64 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ack! More puns! What a drag!

Check out the Info/Tools menu, top-left. Maybe there's a filter.

74 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:39:01pm
75 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:39:18pm

If all smokers were to quit tomorrow, the government is not going to just take that hit to their pocket. They'll come after something else to make up for the lost revenue.

76 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:40:09pm

re: #72 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So round, so firm, so fully packed.

Hubba!

Needs the Rockettes in there.

77 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:40:23pm

re: #69 Wild Knight

I don't like this at all. Whatever the merits of the case, I, an incorrigible lover of pipeweed, feel that this yet another tool/instrument for the politically-correct, NGOs and their like to use in their ceaseless war against tobacco. I really, REALLY enjoy smoking and, while aware of the dangers, am unapologetic about it. If this barrage of opprobrium persists, they're going to make my favourite herb illegal. Bastards.

Like what was written upthread, the government is making way too much money off of tobacco. This isn't about health just like global warming isn't about the climate.

78 JHW  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:40:36pm

re: #45 FurryOldGuyJeans

And here in Washington State if you want something "harder" than beer or wine you have to go to a state-run store to get it.

As liberal as the state is the Blue Laws are still on the books and only SLOWLY being repealed.

In the late 60's there was a law women could only sit at tables in a bar, not at the bar itself. Still had the dry Sunday laws then, too. I remember a lot of guys getting booze from taxi drivers on Sunday. Washington had some other liquor laws I can't remember, repealed in the 70's.

79 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:41:05pm

An interesting response to my 'We Got Mail' post from last night, about the bigoted fascist sympathizer from Germany:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Boy can Charles Johnson ever be a self-righteous ass! [Link: bit.ly...] He's just another thin skinned totalitarian . . .

80 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:41:07pm
81 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:41:19pm

re: #47 FurryOldGuyJeans

Life is the leading cause of death!

Swallowing saliva over long periods of time will do it.

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:41:39pm

The minute the government started suing the tobacco industry for selling a dangerous product shows the depth of hypocrisy they are willing to go to gain even more control over our lives.

83 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:42:01pm

I'm a "thin-skinned totalitarian" because I got hate mail saying "Fuck you and your mother?"

What freaking planet do these people live on?

84 lobo91  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:42:44pm

As my favorite bumper sticker says, "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms" should be the name of a convenience store, not a government agency...

85 Cato  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:42:54pm

re: #83 Charles

Stop curising Charles!

86 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:43:08pm

re: #78 JHW

In the late 60's there was a law women could only sit at tables in a bar, not at the bar itself. Still had the dry Sunday laws then, too. I remember a lot of guys getting booze from taxi drivers on Sunday. Washington had some other liquor laws I can't remember, repealed in the 70's.

Bring your own bottle to clubs, they could only sell you the makings and not the alcohol, was only recently repealed IIRC.

87 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:43:20pm

re: #70 Iron Fist

I think we will see a lot of behavioral demands made on us if they get socialized medicine in place. It wouldn't be out of the question to see State mandated diets (pretty much all Americans eat too much, and eat the wrong thing), especially for people like myself who have diabetes or other related diseases.

And therein lies the rub. Fat, processed sugar, all are next. This will enable them get to alchohol. Socialized medicine will lead to rationalization of benefits, but diseases that may be caused by behavior would get less benefit.

Ask anybody who believes in single payer if they thought that far ahead.

88 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:43:33pm

Tobacco is the export that first generated big cash flow for the American colonies. Historically speaking, we owe our early prosperity to it.

That said, it still was viewed as a habit for men, not for women. The "Little Torches of Freedom" public relations campaign in the 1920s persuaded women that it was socially acceptable, and indeed, a sign of their "liberation", to smoke. Many women rapidly became as addicted as their male counterparts.

It wasn't until the government began its takeover of the health care system with Lyndon Johnson's Great Society Medicare and Medicaid programs back in the 1960s that government turned against tobacco.

Many government programs are funded with tobacco taxes. What will government do when that source of revenue dries up?

89 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:43:39pm

re: #79 Charles

An interesting response to my 'We Got Mail' post from last night, about the bigoted fascist sympathizer from Germany:

[Link: twitter.com...]

Sounds like he's been hitting the Mad Dog 20/20 really hard.

90 Dar ul Harbarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:43:58pm

Those individuals responsible for this deception should be thrown in jail.

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:44:01pm

Anybody ever hear Bob Newhart's phone call bit about when Sir Walter Raleigh first tries to sell tobacco?

92 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:44:08pm

re: #83 Charles

I'm a "thin-skinned totalitarian" because I got hate mail saying "Fuck you and your mother?"

What freaking planet do these people live on?

Non that I would recommend NASA places on it's "places to send a probe" too!

93 Van Helsing  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:44:09pm

Doesn't that make the gubmint a racketeering organization since they were subsidizing tobacco production and accepting the proceeds (taxes) of the sales?

94 LGoPs  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:44:16pm

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

If tobacco was known by the government as long as has been reported why are they not on trial for racketeering? They knowing let a harmful substance be sold to generate tax revenues.

Precisely. Government speak with forked tongue. It needs to either s**t or get off the pot. If tobacco is that bad, ban it...and stop subsidizing that which they demonize. If it's not willing to do that then all the rest of this maneuvering is nothing more than extortion under the thin guise of legality.

95 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:44:36pm

re: #83 Charles

I'm a "thin-skinned totalitarian" because I got hate mail saying "Fuck you and your mother?"

What freaking planet do these people live on?

For a "kosher wine guy" he seems to have his target slightly askew.

96 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:44:41pm

re: #89 Alouette

Sounds like he's been hitting the Mad Dog 20/20 really hard.

20/20 is a Kosher wine!?!?!

97 Cato  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:44:46pm

re: #87 BigPapa


All diseases brought on by behavior except AIDs which of course will be a preferred disease politically.

98 babes  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:45:09pm

re: #77 Soona'

Like what was written upthread, the government is making way too much money off of tobacco. This isn't about health just like global warming isn't about the climate.

Last quote that I heard was the government(s) were making 65 Billion on cigarette taxes.

99 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:45:23pm
100 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:45:31pm
On Friday the American tobacco industry suffered a huge blow

This is also a huge blow for marijuana legalization advocates.

Basically, this ruling says that cigarette companies are in part financially liable for the health problems caused by their products. Furthermore, it says that tobacco companies are legally compelled to inform the public of the health risks associated with their product. That makes the manufacture and marketing of cigarettes to be extremely expensive.

Since marijuana has at least a similar level of possible health affects associated with it as does tobacco, marijuana manufacturers (in a putative future with legalized pot) will have to endure the exact same sanctions as tobacco companies. If anybody crashes a car while high, or claims to have impaired cognition due to long-term pot use, they can (and believe me , they will) sue the marijuana company for damages. And with this pre-existing court ruling in place, they'll win.

Hence it will be extremely expensive to manufacture and market marijuana. And as a result only major multinationals will be able to afford to do it. Plus, all the legal issues surrounding it will make pot very expensive -- probably more expensive than it now is. The end result will be that there still will be a black market for cheaper "street pot," and the violence soaked drug turf wars will continue, unabated.

Since marijuana smoke contains many of the same lung-damaging properties as tobacco smoke, get ready for a long slew of lawsuits should pot get legalized -- over and above any psychoactive-related lawsuits.

101 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:45:40pm

re: #79 Charles

"You nasty ol' totalitarian, you!
Not letting us do what we want!"

/heh ... makes me wonder how they talk about their parents

102 satan sidekick  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:45:44pm

re: #52 BigPapa

When I was a kid, I remember my mother keeping a pack of cigarettes on top of the fridge because the doctor told her it would help her to lose weight. That was in the late 50s/early 60s

103 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:46:07pm

re: #96 sattv4u2

20/20 is a Kosher wine!?!?!

MD=Mogen David

104 Wild Knight  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:46:09pm

re: #71 Sharmuta

Don't worry- they will not make tobacco illegal.

They make too much money off of it.

They'd better not. If there's anything that can kick me out of wonted placidity and turning revolutionary is the thought of Tobacco Prohibition.

μολὼν λάβε

105 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:46:34pm

re: #88 quickjustice

Many government programs are funded with tobacco taxes. What will government do when that source of revenue dries up?

What I find disturbing is the number of children's programs funded by tobacco taxes. So.... folks should smoke for the children or.....?

106 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:46:51pm

Some drugs kill you faster
And some drugs kill you slow
And the ones you like the mostest
Will put you in the Hole:
Go ask Malice
The Judge of blow

107 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:46:54pm

re: #83 Charles

That reminds me, tell your Mom I wished her a belated Happy Mother's Day!

108 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:46:59pm

Does anyone remember that scene from "Elizabeth: The Golden Age" where Cate Blanchett as "Good Queen Bess" and her ladies in waiting are lighting up rolls of tobacco like big giant doobies?

109 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:47:00pm

re: #83 Charles

I'm a "thin-skinned totalitarian" because I got hate mail saying "Fuck you and your mother?"

What freaking planet do these people live on?

A planet where time stops when someone reaches 2 years of age

110 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:47:20pm

re: #93 Van Helsing

Doesn't that make the gubmint a racketeering organization since they were subsidizing tobacco production and accepting the proceeds (taxes) of the sales?

Yes. But I'm not holding my breath on anyone taking legal action.

111 jaunte  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:47:34pm

re: #83 Charles

I'm a "thin-skinned totalitarian" because I got hate mail saying "Fuck you and your mother?"

What freaking planet do these people live on?

That's the planet where unemployed grumblers meeting in secret are going to change the world and achieve greatness.

112 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:48:24pm

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anybody ever hear Bob Newhart's phone call bit about when Sir Walter Raleigh first tries to sell tobacco?

...and then you set it on fire?

113 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:48:34pm

re: #80 Iron Fist

They weren't really running guns. There were no Federal laws about guns when the Kennedys were making their pile. You could buy a Thompson submachinegun through the mail (if you had the money. Thompsons were a bit expensive even then), and pistols and rifles at your local hardware store.

That's the way it should be. Maybe we'll get back to that level of freedom if the Supreme Court will hand down more decisions like Heller. One can dream, anyway :-)

It may be closer than you think. Montana recently passed a law on firearms that states that for any guns made and sold in Montana, all federal firearms regulations are considered null and void.

As mentioned in States' Gun Rights: The Next Constitutional Battlefield, they're going to find a manufacturer to make and sell 20 rifles in Montana without a mandatory federal dealer's license, and a letter asserting the right to do so would be sent to the BATF.

Utah, Tennessee and Texas are already sending similar laws (not all related to guns) through their legislatures. The whole idea is to test Wickard v. Filburn, and get it overturned. If that's overturned, the federal government would have far less power to do things like regulate your shower pressure, mandate minimum wage, and so on, so this will prove to be a very interesting case!

114 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:48:50pm

re: #98 babes

Last quote that I heard was the government(s) were making 65 Billion on cigarette taxes.

Even one penny in taxes as they demonize tobacco is unacceptable.

115 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:48:53pm
116 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:48:54pm

re: #103 Alouette

MD=Mogen David

Or as it is sometimes know Mad Dog 20-20.

117 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:49:00pm

re: #97 Cato

Ah, yes, I forgot about AIDS. You're right, it will be OK due to the politics of political correctness.

118 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:49:03pm

re: #99 buzzsawmonkey

"You must choose between me and your cigar."

Well I'll be DAMNED!
Kipling knew about Slick Willy!
/how'd he do that?

119 solomonpanting  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:49:22pm

re: #102 satan sidekick

When I was a kid, I remember my mother keeping a pack of cigarettes on top of the fridge because the doctor told her it would help her to lose weight. That was in the late 50s/early 60s

I could see that being the case if she was a short woman and had to jump to reach them.
:U

120 JHW  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:49:27pm

re: #108 Alouette

Wasn't snuff the accepted big thing for female tobacco users back then also?

121 satan sidekick  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:49:54pm

re: #65 Cato

I was curious about this too. One out of every 9 smokers will get emphysema or cancer from smoking. They've recently discovered that smoking activates a genetic predisposition that causes emphysema. I know it has in my family as three generations of smokers have it. Only 20% of smokers get emphysema and even less (not sure of percentage) get lung cancer.

122 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:50:23pm

re: #100 zombie

This is also a huge blow for marijuana legalization advocates.

Basically, this ruling says that cigarette companies are in part financially liable for the health problems caused by their products. Furthermore, it says that tobacco companies are legally compelled to inform the public of the health risks associated with their product. That makes the manufacture and marketing of cigarettes to be extremely expensive.

Since marijuana has at least a similar level of possible health affects associated with it as does tobacco, marijuana manufacturers (in a putative future with legalized pot) will have to endure the exact same sanctions as tobacco companies. If anybody crashes a car while high, or claims to have impaired cognition due to long-term pot use, they can (and believe me , they will) sue the marijuana company for damages. And with this pre-existing court ruling in place, they'll win.

Hence it will be extremely expensive to manufacture and market marijuana. And as a result only major multinationals will be able to afford to do it. Plus, all the legal issues surrounding it will make pot very expensive -- probably more expensive than it now is. The end result will be that there still will be a black market for cheaper "street pot," and the violence soaked drug turf wars will continue, unabated.

Since marijuana smoke contains many of the same lung-damaging properties as tobacco smoke, get ready for a long slew of lawsuits should pot get legalized -- over and above any psychoactive-related lawsuits.

What......huh? Does anyone have any Doritos

123 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:50:51pm
124 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:51:40pm

re: #100 zombie

When a drunk kills someone in a car crash, big alcohol doesn't get sued. If they were at a bar, the bar might be held liable in a lawsuit, but usually the responsible party in wrongful death cases involving alcohol is the consumer of the alcohol/provider of the alcohol, and not the manufacturer of the product.

125 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:51:58pm

re: #120 JHW

Wasn't snuff the accepted big thing for female tobacco users back then also?

Tobacco was just introduced to Europe by Walter Raleigh, snuff was probably developed later, after they had a chance to experiment with the Weed of Satan.

126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:52:09pm

Speaking of Bob Newhart (on-topic because he was a 4 pack a day smoker for years, who turns 80 this year, btw)

"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'."

-Bob Newhart

127 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:52:18pm

re: #80 Iron Fist

They weren't really running guns. There were no Federal laws about guns when the Kennedys were making their pile. You could buy a Thompson submachinegun through the mail (if you had the money. Thompsons were a bit expensive even then), and pistols and rifles at your local hardware store.

That's the way it should be. Maybe we'll get back to that level of freedom if the Supreme Court will hand down more decisions like Heller. One can dream, anyway :-)

Sorry, can't agree with you on that. if machine guns and pistols were absolutely freely available to everyone without restrictions, then every half-hearted criminal, jihadist, psychopath, school-shooter and wannabe killer could get guns capable of mass-killing on a moment's notice. Do we really want that?

Since the Supreme Court recently upheld that the Second Amendment applies to individuals, we'll still have access to guns for the foreseeable future. But I agree with those laws that require background checks and waiting periods. Because I don't want the "bad guys" to get their hands on them that easily.

128 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:52:22pm
129 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:52:32pm

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

Good art is prophetic.

I know, but don't spoil the fun!

/AutomaticKiplingUpdingMacro is running in my PC here

130 satan sidekick  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:52:55pm

re: #119 solomonpanting

HA HA HA - Guess I forgot to add she was supposed to smoke them. Turns out she never even used up that pack. Maybe jumping up to reach them would have been more productive.

131 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:53:06pm

re: #103 Alouette

MD=Mogen David

MD 20/20: The perfect balance of New York and California grapes. (It used to say so on the label)

132 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:53:09pm

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

Good art is prophetic.

Often, I'll feign absentmindedness and "accidentally" refer to our current president as "Ozymandias". Most people aren't familiar with the Shelley poem, so I'll shrug it off as a mistake, but with a knowing smile.

133 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:53:20pm

re: #94 LGoPs

A tobacco ban amounts to Prohibition. We've already tried that with alcohol, which was a huge failure. Better to regulate and tax tobacco. As it is, tobacco taxes already have risen high enough to encourage bootlegging out of North Carolina. Remember the opening scene from "Beverly Hills Cop"? Or better yet, "The Untouchables", starring Cosner and Connery?

Prohibition enables organized crime. It's a bad idea.

134 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:53:50pm

re: #127 zombie

You should read Dr John Lott.

135 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:54:00pm

re: #131 Soona'

MD 20/20: The perfect balance of New York and California grapes. (It used to say so on the label)

That was RAISIN the BAR !

136 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:54:00pm
137 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:54:38pm

Iron Fist would most likely enjoy this book.

Cousin Fist- if you haven't read this, do so.

138 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:55:03pm

re: #135 sattv4u2

That was RAISIN the BAR !

I thought the RAISIN was in the SUN?

139 vxbush  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:55:12pm

I had a friend who was told by her doctor: because of her small pelvis, when she decided to have kids she should continue to smoke to make sure the babies would be small enough to fit through if she wanted to avoid a caesarean section.

I suppose my position would be, I'd sacrifice just about everything to keep my children healthy, including let them slice and dice me if it keeps my baby healthy.

140 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:55:38pm

re: #132 gmsc

Often, I'll feign absentmindedness and "accidentally" refer to our current president as "Ozymandias". Most people aren't familiar with the Shelley poem, so I'll shrug it off as a mistake, but with a knowing smile.

And then, maintaining the knowing smile, you'll say:
..... "I'll Bysshe right back."

141 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:55:51pm

re: #138 Nevergiveup

I thought the RAISIN was in the SUN?

nahh ,,, my son prefers peaches

142 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:55:54pm

re: #128 Iron Fist

We can hope. If we could get the federal government out of our lives it would be better. Has it ever struck you as odd that the party that complains most loudly about any sex-related laws (i.e. regulating pornography or condemning homosexuality) as having the government "in the bedroom" as it were, are the same people who want to control our lives down to the tiniest minutia in all other areas?

I find it most curious.

Hypocrisy due to lack of principles is neither curious nor mysterious.

See #46 for video of Glenn Beck and Andrew Nopalitano talking about these test cases. True, it's Beck, but it's an eye-opener nonetheless.

143 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:56:03pm

re: #126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Speaking of Bob Newhart (on-topic because he was a 4 pack a day smoker for years, who turns 80 this year, btw)

"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'."

-Bob Newhart

hahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahhahaaaa

144 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:56:16pm

re: #139 vxbush

I had a friend who was told by her doctor: because of her small pelvis, when she decided to have kids she should continue to smoke to make sure the babies would be small enough to fit through if she wanted to avoid a caesarean section.

I suppose my position would be, I'd sacrifice just about everything to keep my children healthy, including let them slice and dice me if it keeps my baby healthy.

Thank G-D for women and thank G-D I'm a man!

145 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:56:23pm

re: #124 Sharmuta

When a drunk kills someone in a car crash, big alcohol doesn't get sued. If they were at a bar, the bar might be held liable in a lawsuit, but usually the responsible party in wrongful death cases involving alcohol is the consumer of the alcohol/provider of the alcohol, and not the manufacturer of the product.

In many cases with California pot dispensaries, the manufacturer and the provider are the same people/club. They grow it, they sell it. Under this new ruling, they could then be held liable for any effects of their product -- lung damage, cognition impairment, accidents, you name it.

146 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:57:04pm

re: #141 sattv4u2

nahh ,,, my son prefers peaches

Georgia Peaches?

147 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:57:38pm

re: #99 buzzsawmonkey

The classic Kipling line: "And a woman is only a woman, but a good Cigar is a Smoke."

re: #108 Alouette

"Little Torches of Freedom", Hollywood edition.

148 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:58:10pm

re: #145 zombie

Your analogy still doesn't hold. Tobacco was held responsible because they lied and concealed the effects of their product.

149 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:58:23pm

re: #124 Sharmuta

When a drunk kills someone in a car crash, big alcohol doesn't get sued. If they were at a bar, the bar might be held liable in a lawsuit, but usually the responsible party in wrongful death cases involving alcohol is the consumer of the alcohol/provider of the alcohol, and not the manufacturer of the product.

This ruling could be used as precedent for suing the brewers and distillers.

150 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:58:36pm

re: #83 Charles

I'm a "thin-skinned totalitarian" because I got hate mail saying "Fuck you and your mother?"

What freaking planet do these people live on?

Htrae?

151 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:58:51pm

re: #121 satan sidekick

I was curious about this too. One out of every 9 smokers will get emphysema or cancer from smoking. They've recently discovered that smoking activates a genetic predisposition that causes emphysema. I know it has in my family as three generations of smokers have it. Only 20% of smokers get emphysema and even less (not sure of percentage) get lung cancer.

The sad part about it is that the "killer tobbacco" meme has led to some really lazy medical research. If they can find even the most remote association with smoking, they'll label it as another disease caused by smoking. The federal government's medical research grant system should be investigated for fraud.

152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:58:54pm

re: #139 vxbush

Don't get mad at me, but, I don't believe your friend, unless of course the child is now like 50 years old. Sounds like a friend that did not want to quit smoking.

If she was telling the truth, that Dr. should be removed.

153 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:59:06pm

re: #146 Nevergiveup

Georgia Peaches?

yup ,,,,, he was at a party last night ,,, 9th - 12 th graders (plus parents

There certainly were lots of them there !

154 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:59:22pm

re: #149 FurryOldGuyJeans

This ruling could be used as precedent for suing the brewers and distillers.

I know- which is what I've been trying to explain to my friends and former co-workers in the liquor industry for AGES. They're next.

155 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 12:59:25pm

re: #148 Sharmuta

Your analogy still doesn't hold. Tobacco was held responsible because they lied and concealed the effects of their product.

I don't see much information from brewers and distillers of the dangers of use and misuse of alcohol.

156 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:00:08pm

Mah kounter-jeehod is sekrit!

Image: 20090524kounter-jeehod.jpg

(Idea stolen from KT.)

157 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:00:14pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

You should read Dr John Lott.

I did. And he agrees with my position. To quote your link:

John R. Lott, Jr.'s study in the January 1997 Journal of Legal Studies showing that concealed-carry weapons permits reduced the crime rate set off a firestorm.

Notice the word "permits." He's saying that encouraging law-abiding people with a permit to have guns reduced the crime rate. He did not advocate giving out machine guns to anyone without a permit or a background check, as was implied in Fist's recommendation ("There were no Federal laws about guns when the Kennedys were making their pile. You could buy a Thompson submachinegun through the mail (if you had the money. Thompsons were a bit expensive even then), and pistols and rifles at your local hardware store. That's the way it should be.")

158 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:00:44pm
159 Randall Gross  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:00:46pm

Zombie: You probably already know this, but just in case, Bay Area Women in Black are holding a pro palestine shindig tomorrow I think, the Jewish holocaust denier is supposed to be there. I had to reboot a minute ago, but found the link at Cleveland indy media.

160 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:01:26pm

re: #156 Charles

Mah kounter-jeehod is sekrit!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

(Idea stolen from KT.)

Heh. ;)

161 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:01:29pm

re: #145 zombie

I agree that Tobacco and Marijuana cause many of the same illnesses

But in the case of pot

A) one really doesn't care that they are sick
B) one rarely remembers that they are sick
C) ,, DUDE ,,,,,,

//////

162 jorline  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:02:02pm

Why are cigarettes sold in petrol stations when smoking is prohibited there?

Stephen Wright

163 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:02:45pm

re: #157 zombie

Notice the word "permits." He's saying that encouraging law-abiding people with a permit to have guns reduced the crime rate. He did not advocate giving out machine guns to anyone without a permit or a background check, as was implied in Fist's recommendation ("There were no Federal laws about guns when the Kennedys were making their pile. You could buy a Thompson submachinegun through the mail (if you had the money. Thompsons were a bit expensive even then), and pistols and rifles at your local hardware store. That's the way it should be.")

JFK was killed by a mail-order rifle.

164 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:02:58pm

re: #149 FurryOldGuyJeans

Dram Shop statutes in many states already address the issue: [Link: www.answers.com...] You're correct, however: they don't usually extend liability to the manufacturer or wholesaler.

165 callahan23  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:03:05pm

re: #162 jorline

Why are cigarettes sold in petrol stations when smoking is prohibited there?

Stephen Wright

Petrol fumes and open fire?
K A B O O M

166 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:03:12pm

re: #148 Sharmuta

Your analogy still doesn't hold. Tobacco was held responsible because they lied and concealed the effects of their product.

Will marijuana companies want to reveal the full health effects of their product? Doubtful. The warning label would be bigger than the package. And if they were compelled to do so, it would be a huge financial burden onn the manufacturer, which (as I said) would limit joint-peddling only to the multinationals that could handle the vast expense of testing, lawsuits, nationwide public service advertising, etc. Thsi ruling effectively freezes out the small-time pot dealer from participating in any future pot legalization.

167 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:03:50pm
In a unanimous 92-page ruling, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said there was ample evidence to conclude that the tobacco industry intended to deceive the public about the dangers of smoking.

The didn't just "intend to deceive", they flat-out lied, to the public, to Congress, with hands on Bibles and under oath, for decades. In bogus studies, lying ads, whisper campaigns, attempts to quash evidence that would hurt them, and on and on.

For decades.

As a matter of corporate policy.

Because when you have a product that kills its consumers when used as intended, you have an inherent truth problem.

168 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:03:59pm

re: #159 Thanos

Zombie: You probably already know this, but just in case, Bay Area Women in Black are holding a pro palestine shindig tomorrow I think, the Jewish holocaust denier is supposed to be there. I had to reboot a minute ago, but found the link at Cleveland indy media.

Link?

169 Randall Gross  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:04:04pm

Darn, cigarettes are expensive enough if you are a smoker. You guys just wait until they go after Big Chocolate.... then you'll know what it's like....

/

170 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:04:12pm

re: #162 jorline

Why are cigarettes sold in petrol stations when smoking is prohibited there?

Stephen Wright

It's odd that you can just buy cigarettes, but need a prescription to quit.

171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:04:28pm

re: #165 callahan23

Petrol fumes and open fire?
K A B O O M

Remember "The Birds"?

Wait. That was a cigar.

172 wiffersnapper  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:04:29pm

Thank You For Smoking is hilarious.

173 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:05:01pm

re: #162 jorline

Why are cigarettes sold in petrol stations when smoking is prohibited there?

Stephen Wright

Why does the Navy have special smoking areas when they want all Sailors and Marines to quite smoking?

174 Randall Gross  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:05:11pm

re: #168 zombie

Link?

I lost it, I'll see if i can find it again....

175 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:05:13pm

re: #168 zombie

Link?

[Link: cleveland.indymedia.org...]

176 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:05:38pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Something similar happened with the asbestos industry. The first documented examples of asbestos-caused injuries first appeared in the medical journals in the 1890s. The industry covered up the issue for decades.

177 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:05:39pm

re: #169 Thanos

Darn, cigarettes are expensive enough if you are a smoker. You guys just wait until they go after Big Chocolate.... then you'll know what it's like....

/

Going after Big Chocolate?!
THAT'S HERESHEY!

/

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:05:45pm

re: #172 wiffersnapper

What was it? "The Death Squad"? Is that right?

179 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:06:40pm

re: #127 zombie

Sorry, can't agree with you on that. if machine guns and pistols were absolutely freely available to everyone without restrictions, then every half-hearted criminal, jihadist, psychopath, school-shooter and wannabe killer could get guns capable of mass-killing on a moment's notice. Do we really want that?

Since the Supreme Court recently upheld that the Second Amendment applies to individuals, we'll still have access to guns for the foreseeable future. But I agree with those laws that require background checks and waiting periods. Because I don't want the "bad guys" to get their hands on them that easily.

I remember mail-order guns and guns in Sears catalogs and guns in hardware stores. I also remember that one hardly, if ever, heard of mass killings because of it. I attribute today's misuse of firearms as a widespread degredation of our nations morality much more than anyone's access to them.

180 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:06:50pm

re: #166 zombie

Will marijuana companies want to reveal the full health effects of their product? Doubtful. The warning label would be bigger than the package. And if they were compelled to do so, it would be a huge financial burden onn the manufacturer, which (as I said) would limit joint-peddling only to the multinationals that could handle the vast expense of testing, lawsuits, nationwide public service advertising, etc. Thsi ruling effectively freezes out the small-time pot dealer from participating in any future pot legalization.

Hence, this commercial.

181 Cato  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:06:52pm

re: #121 satan sidekick

One article I read in Reason Magazine several years ago said less than 5% of smokers get lung cancer. However, virtually no one who doesn't smoke gets it, so nearly all the people in hospitals for lung cancer smoked.

182 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:06:55pm

Technion doctoral student censured for sitting through playing of anthem
Far-left activist refuses to stand during playing of Hatikva, dean sends him letter of reprimand calling his behavior 'disgraceful'

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Every Country has a few?

183 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:07:18pm

re: #179 Soona'

I remember mail-order guns and guns in Sears catalogs and guns in hardware stores. I also remember that one hardly, if ever, heard of mass killings because of it. I attribute today's misuse of firearms as a widespread degredation of our nations morality much more than anyone's access to them.

UP-DING!

184 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:07:26pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

And we had a government that was willing to look the other way so they could derive gobs of tax revenues.

185 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:08:02pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Damn. The "MOD" squad. "Merchants of Death".

186 Randall Gross  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:08:31pm

re: #168 zombie

Link?


No dates given here..

(Warning: Extreme Left Site)

[Link: cleveland.indymedia.org...]

187 SixDegrees  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:08:39pm

re: #65 Cato


Query: What percentage of lifelong smokers get lung cancer? Emphysema?

As far as lung cancer goes, the absolute percentage is quite small. I don't recall it exactly, but it is on the order of, let's say, 3%.

This sounds awfully small and leads people to wonder what all the fuss is about. The fuss is about this rate versus the same rate for non-smokers, who develop lung cancer at a rate well below 0.1%. So your 'normal' risk of getting lung cancer is extremely small, but smoking increases this risk by a factor of 30 times or more.

Emphysema, I believe, is similar, although I have no idea what the actual rates themselves are. Just that the rate for smokers is way the hell higher than for non-smokers.

Same, too, for a variety of cancers of the stomach, esophagus, throat, tongue, gums and other parts of the mouth and nose. Believe me - you really, really don't want any of these. The brave can stuff "mouth cancer" into Google Images if they desire, but I can't recommend it.

188 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:08:45pm

re: #166 zombie

When will junk food be held to this standard? When will life be held to this standard?

The fact is there are a lot of unhealthy decisions people can make for themselves in a free society. They are free to do so whether do-gooders like it or not.

My problem is when people who later don't like the decision they freely made think they can hold someone else accountable for their bad decisions. It's called personal responsibility.

189 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:09:02pm

re: #181 Cato

My father, the cancer surgeon, said that abuse of alcohol and tobacco played a large role in most of his cases.

190 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:09:25pm

re: #181 Cato

I had a non-smoking friend who died of lung cancer. Was too weird. Someone famous had it recently, who was that?

191 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:10:26pm

re: #187 SixDegrees

Dad's specialty was cancer of the head, neck, ear, mouth, and throat. Very nasty disease.

192 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:10:30pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

The didn't just "intend to deceive", they flat-out lied, to the public, to Congress, with hands on Bibles and under oath, for decades. In bogus studies, lying ads, whisper campaigns, attempts to quash evidence that would hurt them, and on and on.

For decades.

As a matter of corporate policy.

Because when you have a product that kills its consumers when used as intended, you have an inherent truth problem.

Maybe I'm too young, but I never saw any of what is alleged. From infancy, cigarettes were always portrayed to me as noxious, cancer-causing coffin nails, both in the media and in the social environment. Even in school, the peer-pressure was that cigarettes were the height of uncool, the mark of a loser.

193 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:11:00pm

re: #175 Charles

[Link: cleveland.indymedia.org...]

Thx!

194 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:11:14pm

re: #190 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I had a non-smoking friend who died of lung cancer. Was too weird. Someone famous had it recently, who was that?

Reeve's wife?

195 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:11:39pm

Looks like Cleveland Indymedia hasn't yet learned to redirect all links coming from LGF, as IndyBay does.

197 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:12:00pm

I'm going to move to an island where people who want to legislate every detail of my life for my own good are not allowed.

198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:12:06pm

re: #184 FurryOldGuyJeans

Totally.

199 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:12:32pm

re: #192 zombie

Maybe I'm too young, but I never saw any of what is alleged. From infancy, cigarettes were always portrayed to me as noxious, cancer-causing coffin nails, both in the media and in the social environment. Even in school, the peer-pressure was that cigarettes were the height of uncool, the mark of a loser.

I remember the days of TV ads showing how cool smoking was, print ads showing how being a smoking cowboy made one more of a man.

200 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:12:49pm

Danica Patrick in 4th place at Indy 500.

201 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:13:00pm

re: #197 Sharmuta

I'm going to move to an island where people who want to legislate every detail of my life for my own good are not allowed.

Gonna tear off all the warning tags?

202 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:13:02pm

re: #197 Sharmuta

I'm going to move to an island where people who want to legislate every detail of my life for my own good are not allowed.

I thought Atlantis sunk?

203 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:13:03pm

re: #197 Sharmuta

I'm going to move to an island where people who want to legislate every detail of my life for my own good are not allowed.

Isn't that doing what you're trying to escape from ?!?!?!?!


/////

204 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:13:04pm

re: #196 jaunte

That's it. Thanks.

205 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:13:16pm

re: #179 Soona'

I remember mail-order guns and guns in Sears catalogs and guns in hardware stores. I also remember that one hardly, if ever, heard of mass killings because of it. I attribute today's misuse of firearms as a widespread degredation of our nations morality much more than anyone's access to them.

Lee Harvey Oswald ordered the gun he used to assassinate JFK through a catalog.

206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:14:12pm

re: #200 Afrocity

It's over? Or currently 4th?

207 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:14:24pm

re: #205 Alouette

Lee Harvey Oswald ordered the gun he used to assassinate JFK through a catalog.

Yeah but he got his training the old fashion way, From the United States Marines.

208 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:14:25pm

re: #169 Thanos

Darn, cigarettes are expensive enough if you are a smoker. You guys just wait until they go after Big Chocolate.... then you'll know what it's like....

/

Why the sarc tag? They will be coming after chocoate. 'Cause it's got sugar innit. And everyone knows that sugar is really really really bad for you.

209 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:14:39pm

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's over? Or currently 4th?

current

210 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:15:05pm

Yankees tie it up in the bottom of the Ninth again. And it is Melky again.

211 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:15:11pm

re: #207 Nevergiveup

Yeah but he got his training the old fashion way, From the United States Marines.

And he worked in a 'book' depository!

212 Cato  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:15:15pm

re: #189 quickjustice

re: #189 quickjustice


My point is merely that both smokers and non-smokers overestimate the chances of getting these horrible diseases from smoking, yet smokers choose to smoke anyway. Do tell me you can't quit. I know at least 20 people who have, and if they fall off the wagon it is just onew or two cigs every few months.

213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:15:43pm

re: #211 debutaunt

And he worked in a 'book' depository!

And, he smoked.

214 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:15:45pm

re: #207 Nevergiveup

Yeah but he got his training the old fashion way, From the United States Marines.

Isn't Oswald considered an EX-Marine, like Jack Murtha should be?

215 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:16:19pm

re: #206 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

currently in 4th

216 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:16:26pm

re: #198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yes, the tobacco industry was criminal for lying about their product, but the government is far worse because they were supposed to be our watchdog against such and they willingly ignored that public trust for getting tax monies.

And all this "righteous" indignation now is just even more hypocritical because they are still taxing what they say is so deadly.

217 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:16:28pm

re: #214 Macker

Isn't Oswald considered an EX-Marine, like Jack Murtha should be?

I think the Marines would like to forget he ever existed.

218 MandyManners  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:16:36pm

Yesterday someone posted a link about a climate change study group that is recommending that government cafeterias not serve lamb and other foods that take a lot of power to grow. Or, something like that.

219 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:16:40pm

re: #213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And, he smoked.

Wow! We got ourselves a conspiracy!

220 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:16:57pm

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

-CS Lewis

221 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:17:02pm

re: #210 Nevergiveup

Yankees tie it up in the bottom of the Ninth again. And it is Melky again.

Whoever the other team is ..that is who I am rooting for.
Red Sox Nation!

222 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:17:38pm

re: #221 Afrocity

Whoever the other team is ..that is who I am rooting for.
Red Sox Nation!

Phillie. Hope your not a Met Fan?

223 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:18:29pm

re: #211 debutaunt

And he worked in a 'book' depository!

Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846
Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946

He was elected President in 1860
He was elected President in 1960

His wife lost a child while living in the White House
His wife lost a child while living in the White House

He was directly concerned with Civil Rights for blacks
He was directly concerned with Civil Rights for blacks

Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy who told him not to go to the theater
Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln who told him not to go to Dallas

Lincoln was shot in the back of the head in the presence of his wife
Kennedy was shot in the back of the head in the presence of his wife

Lincoln shot in the Ford Theatre
Kennedy shot in a Lincoln, made by Ford

He was shot on a Friday
He was shot on a Friday

The assassin, John Wilkes Booth, was known by three names, comprised of fifteen letters
The assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, was known by three names, comprised of fifteen letters

Booth shot Lincoln in a theater and fled to a warehouse
Oswald shot Kennedy from a warehouse and fled to a theater

Booth was killed before being brought to trial
Oswald was killed before being brought to trial

There were theories that Booth was part of a greater conspiracy
There were theories that Oswald was part of a greater conspiracy

Lincoln's successor was Andrew Johnson, born in 1808
Kennedy's successor was Lyndon Johnson, born in 1908

224 PaxAmericana  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:19:46pm

Woah, woah, woah, woah. Hold the phone! Smoking is bad for you?

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:20:18pm

re: #223 gmsc

Kennedy was elected President.
Lincoln was elected President.

226 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:20:37pm

BTW, Charles, in relation to my report yesterday about the anti-Israel bus ads (thanks for the link), a commenter pointed out something I had forgotten -- that Marla Bennett was a Study Abroad student from U.C. Berkeley to Hebrew University who was killed by a Palestinian terrorist on July 31, 2002. And the ad-alterers have the gall to act as if it is Hebrew University who is the villain, and the Palestinians as the heroes! Sickening.

Terrorist bombing at Hebrew University cafeteria
July 31, 2002

The victims:

- David (Diego) Ladowski, 29, of Jerusalem
- Levina Shapira, 53, of Jerusalem
- Marla Bennett, 24, of California (US)

Marla Bennett

July 31, 2002 - Marla Bennett, 24, of San Diego, California was one of nine people killed killed when a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra cafeteria on the Hebrew University Mt. Scopus campus.

Shortly after 13:30, while about 100 people were eating lunch, a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra cafeteria on the Hebrew University Mt. Scopus in Jerusalem. The explosive device was apparently planted inside the cafeteria, which was gutted by the explosion. Nine people were killed and 85 were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Marla Bennett completed her B.A. in Political Science at Berkeley University in California in 2000. She was in the second year of a three-year master's program in Judaic Studies at the Hebrew University and Pardes Institute, had been at the university to take a final exam in her sole Hebrew University class of the semester, Hebrew language, when she was killed.

It was this incident which caused the suspension of the program; after seven years of security improvements, the program was reinstated, and then the whiners champion the people who killed the students! The mind reels.

227 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:20:51pm

re: #223 gmsc

The week before he died, Lincoln visited Monroe, Maryland
The week before he died, Kennedy visited Marilyn Monroe

228 MandyManners  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:20:57pm

Itellu3times in the mail thread:

GIVE up lamb roasts and save the planet. Government advisers are developing menus to combat climate change by cutting out “high carbon” food such as meat from sheep, whose burping poses a serious threat to the environment.

Out will go kebabs, greenhouse tomatoes and alcohol. Instead, diners will be encouraged to consume more potatoes and seasonal vegetables, as well as pork and chicken, which generate fewer carbon emissions.

“Changing our lifestyles, including our diets, is going to be one of the crucial elements in cutting carbon emissions,” said David Kennedy, chief executive of the Committee on Climate Change.


SNIP

It's a British scheme.

229 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:21:01pm

re: #222 Nevergiveup

I am if they are playing against the Yankees.

230 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:21:04pm

re: #192 zombie

Maybe I'm too young, but I never saw any of what is alleged. From infancy, cigarettes were always portrayed to me as noxious, cancer-causing coffin nails, both in the media and in the social environment. Even in school, the peer-pressure was that cigarettes were the height of uncool, the mark of a loser.

Same here when I was growing up. Everyone knew that cigarettes stunted your growth and was the starting phase of all sorts of sick deviant behavior.

231 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:22:00pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Kennedy was elected President.
Lincoln was elected President.

Did Lincoln like the ladies?

232 MandyManners  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:22:04pm

re: #224 PaxAmericana

Woah, woah, woah, woah. Hold the phone! Smoking is bad for you?

So is snorting coke, drinking copious amounts of Wild Turkey 101 and engaging in orgies.

233 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:22:16pm

re: #230 Soona'

Cool kids smoked when I was in school. Period. Fact.

I wanted to be cool.

234 MandyManners  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:22:29pm

Well, there go my summer plans.

235 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:22:33pm

re: #192 zombie

You're too young! [jealousy showing]

Ask my father, the retired oncologist. He'll be glad to quote you chapter and verse.

236 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:22:39pm

re: #231 debutaunt

Did Lincoln like the ladies?

Ya wouldn't know it judging by his wife?
/ducking

237 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:22:54pm

re: #227 Alouette

The week before he died, Lincoln visited Monroe, Maryland
The week before he died, Kennedy visited Marilyn Monroe

My favorite version of that one goes:

The week before he died, Lincoln was in Monroe, Maryland

238 gmsc  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:23:06pm

re: #236 Nevergiveup

Ya wouldn't know it judging by his wife?
/ducking

Just a Todd bit?

239 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:23:10pm

re: #232 MandyManners

Wild Turkey is bad for you?

240 LGoPs  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:23:28pm

re: #133 quickjustice

A tobacco ban amounts to Prohibition. We've already tried that with alcohol, which was a huge failure. Better to regulate and tax tobacco. As it is, tobacco taxes already have risen high enough to encourage bootlegging out of North Carolina. Remember the opening scene from "Beverly Hills Cop"? Or better yet, "The Untouchables", starring Cosner and Connery?

Prohibition enables organized crime. It's a bad idea.

Agreed that prohibition is bad. I'd just like to have an end to the double standard in litigation and extortionate taxing. And I say this as an ex-smoker.

241 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:23:54pm

The US Government officially recognized the detriments of tobacco and smoking since 1965 when warning labels on cigarette packages became a requirement, yet was there any attempt to not derive an economic benefit from the continued sale? They are just as guilty of lying as is the Tobacco Industry.

242 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:24:11pm

re: #184 FurryOldGuyJeans

And we had a government that was willing to look the other way so they could derive gobs of tax revenues.

Right, because prohibition would have worked so much better.

Regulation and taxation seems right to me. Some of those taxes go to mitigating the damage.

243 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:24:23pm

re: #237 gmsc

My favorite version of that one goes:

The week before he died, Lincoln was in Monroe, Maryland

*blush and cover eyes*
*scroll down the page*

244 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:24:36pm

re: #241 FurryOldGuyJeans

The US Government officially recognized the detriments of tobacco and smoking since 1965 when warning labels on cigarette packages became a requirement, yet was there any attempt to not derive an economic benefit from the continued sale? They are just as guilty of lying as is the Tobacco Industry.

Government makes too much money off this product. They are hypocrites.

245 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:24:41pm

re: #210 Nevergiveup

Yankees tie it up in the bottom of the Ninth again. And it is Melky again.

15 laps to go in the Indy 500 and Danica Patrick is running 2nd.
AAAAHHHHH Danica.

246 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:25:01pm

re: #234 MandyManners

How's the dosage change working out?

247 rain of lead  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:25:11pm

I am a smoker, I have always known smoking is bad, having said that
I would love for the tobbaco companys (all of them) to just stop shipping their product in the us for oh 60-90 days, don't say anything,just stop
then watch the gov. have a fraking meltdown over the lost $$$

/never happen
// would still be sweet

248 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:25:15pm

re: #245 Soona'

15 laps to go in the Indy 500 and Danica Patrick is running 2nd.
AAAAHHHHH Danica.

Who is running first?

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:25:50pm

re: #248 Nevergiveup

Abbot.

250 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:25:56pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

When will junk food be held to this standard? When will life be held to this standard?

The fact is there are a lot of unhealthy decisions people can make for themselves in a free society. They are free to do so whether do-gooders like it or not.

My problem is when people who later don't like the decision they freely made think they can hold someone else accountable for their bad decisions. It's called personal responsibility.

So then you agree that the tobacco companies are being unfairly victimized here, that they ought not be held responsible for the bad decisions of their customers? You are saying it's the smokers' fault, it's their personal responsibility -- not the fault of the advertisers or the manufacturers.

251 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:26:15pm

re: #231 debutaunt

Did Lincoln like the ladies?

2 Live Crew has the answer....NSFW!

252 Rexatosis  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:26:22pm

If they ban everything that is bad for you there will be nothing left. No exercise is bad for your heart and lungs, running will eventually wear down your knees, ankles, feet. We are all going to die, I am just sick of a bunch of "health nazis" telling me how to live my life. I like my cigars, beer, and buffalo wings. I am an adult, I am capable of making my own decisions and I don't need a bunch of lawyers and judges doing it for me.

253 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:26:27pm

re: #221 Afrocity

Whoever the other team is ..that is who I am rooting for.
Red Sox Nation!

I knew I loved you !

254 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:27:09pm

re: #250 zombie

I read the book "Fast Food Nation". The shit that fast food joints have done over the years is mind blowing.

255 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:27:42pm

Danica has moved into 3rd place...My heart is racing! 8 laps. Come on girl you can do it.

256 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:29:04pm

re: #250 zombie

You're putting words in my mouth, but I do believe in personal responsibility.

257 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:29:20pm

re: #244 Sharmuta

Government makes too much money off this product. They are hypocrites.

re: #242 Cato the Elder

Oh, prohibition doesn't and isn't working? Explain that to anyone who is told where and when they can smoke their legally obtained and HEAVILY taxed product here in Washington State.

258 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:29:51pm

re: #247 rain of lead

I am a smoker, I have always known smoking is bad, having said that
I would love for the tobbaco companys (all of them) to just stop shipping their product in the us for oh 60-90 days, don't say anything,just stop
then watch the gov. have a fraking meltdown over the lost $$$

/never happen
// would still be sweet

What a beautiful idea.

259 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:30:28pm

re: #257 FurryOldGuyJeans

Dennis Leary has a joke about that- that the only place people can smoke is in their homes, under the blankets, with al the lights off.

260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:30:57pm

re: #247 rain of lead

Screw 'em! Pull an Ursay!

261 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:31:34pm

re: #121 satan sidekick

I was curious about this too. One out of every 9 smokers will get emphysema or cancer from smoking. They've recently discovered that smoking activates a genetic predisposition that causes emphysema. I know it has in my family as three generations of smokers have it. Only 20% of smokers get emphysema and even less (not sure of percentage) get lung cancer.

First: For that to mean anything, you have to compare with the rates among non-smokers.

Second: "Here, try this, kid. You'll love it, goes well with booze, and *cough* you'llbeasteadyincomesourceforusforlife *cough*. And, the chances you'll ending up gasping for breath and tied to an oxygen tank for maybe several decades of your life are only one in five.Here, the first carton is on us!"

262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:31:53pm

re: #260 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Screw 'em! Pull an Irsay!

oops

263 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:31:55pm

2 laps she is in 3rd still.

264 MandyManners  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:32:23pm

re: #259 Sharmuta

Dennis Leary has a joke about that- that the only place people can smoke is in their homes, under the blankets, with al the lights off.

Speaking of Dennis Leary....


265 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:33:21pm

IT'S HELIO!

266 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:33:29pm

She came in 3rd. shit.

267 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:33:37pm

re: #259 Sharmuta

Dennis Leary has a joke about that- that the only place people can smoke is in their homes, under the blankets, with al the lights off.

I know this is probably anecdotal but a while back I remember hearing a story on the radio about a California town actually proposing to pass legislation preventing people from smoking in their own homes because houses were so close together the second hand smoke might reach the neighbors. The commentator even emphasized MIGHT.

268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:33:40pm

re: #263 Afrocity

Fantastic. She just set another record!

269 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:34:06pm

re: #266 Afrocity

She came in 3rd. shit.

3rd is better than last.

270 rain of lead  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:34:20pm

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

whats an Irsay?

271 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:34:23pm

re: #263 Afrocity

2 laps she is in 3rd still.

3rd place. Her best Indy finish.

272 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:34:31pm

re: #267 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know this is probably anecdotal but a while back I remember hearing a story on the radio about a California town actually proposing to pass legislation preventing people from smoking in their own homes because houses were so close together the second hand smoke might reach the neighbors. The commentator even emphasized MIGHT.

That was Boulder, Colorado, I believe.

273 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:34:39pm

Who is this guy who won?

274 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:35:52pm

re: #226 zombie

BTW, Charles, in relation to my report yesterday about the anti-Israel bus ads (thanks for the link), a commenter pointed out something I had forgotten -- that Marla Bennett was a Study Abroad student from U.C. Berkeley to Hebrew University who was killed by a Palestinian terrorist on July 31, 2002. And the ad-alterers have the gall to act as if it is Hebrew University who is the villain, and the Palestinians as the heroes! Sickening.

Terrorist bombing at Hebrew University cafeteria
July 31, 2002

The victims:

- David (Diego) Ladowski, 29, of Jerusalem
- Levina Shapira, 53, of Jerusalem
- Marla Bennett, 24, of California (US)

Marla Bennett


It was this incident which caused the suspension of the program; after seven years of security improvements, the program was reinstated, and then the whiners champion the people who killed the students! The mind reels.

My cousin was a friend of Marla Bennett's when they were in high school. He was devastated when she was killed. These people can fuck off already.

275 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:36:14pm

re: #156 Charles

Mah kounter-jeehod is sekrit!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

(Idea stolen from KT.)


Sunlight makes the fascists cry.

276 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:36:43pm

Is HOLLYWOOD sin-taxed properly--everyone involved--in promoting cigarettes, drink, violence & random explosions & car chases & "bad behavior" on screen?

Hollywood is as complicit as the tobacco/"sinful" growers/manufacturers in the glamourization of what EVERYONE knows are behaviors toxic for the environment and toxic to human evolution.

277 Macker  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:36:45pm

re: #273 Nevergiveup

Who is this guy who won?


Helio Castroneves, a 3-time winner!

278 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:36:53pm

re: #272 Sharmuta

That was Boulder, Colorado, I believe.

I don't remember where, just the audacity of politicians who want to grab our personal freedoms for an ephemeral "common good".

279 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:36:54pm

re: #176 quickjustice

Something similar happened with the asbestos industry. The first documented examples of asbestos-caused injuries first appeared in the medical journals in the 1890s. The industry covered up the issue for decades.

Yes, and like the baccy pushers, actually tried (and in some cases succeeded) to torpedo the careers of "rogue" scientists who spoke out.

At least asbestos has some legitimate uses other than to give you a short-lived buzz and turn you into *cough* anincomesourceforlife *cough* for the pushers.

280 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:37:11pm

re: #261 Cato the Elder

I did ask the kid of the anti-tobacco lawyer if they knew if it was the tobacco that caused health issues or if it was the additives tobacco companies put in their product.

He said they didn't know.

281 LGoPs  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:37:55pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

When will junk food be held to this standard? When will life be held to this standard?

The fact is there are a lot of unhealthy decisions people can make for themselves in a free society. They are free to do so whether do-gooders like it or not.

My problem is when people who later don't like the decision they freely made think they can hold someone else accountable for their bad decisions. It's called personal responsibility.

I'm afraid it will start with 'free' government health care.
The beauracracy that will run it will start imposing penalties for bad behavior. The scary part will be what they define as bad behavior.

282 Nevergiveup  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:38:02pm

re: #277 Macker

Helio Castroneves, a 3-time winner!

Thanks

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:38:20pm

re: #259 Sharmuta

Dennis Leary has a joke about that- that the only place people can smoke is in their homes, under the blankets, with al the lights off.

However, if the blanket catches fire, you may be caught.

284 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:38:22pm

re: #275 Killgore Trout

It might work well with one of the Hitler cats

285 rain of lead  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:38:52pm

re smoking
what is NEVER mentioned is how much money smoking saves the gov
in ss, medicare,medicade, hospital bills etc due to reduced lifespans

heard somewhere about a study that showed smokers actually made a profit for the gov due to these savings

286 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:39:00pm

re: #267 FurryOldGuyJeans

I know this is probably anecdotal but a while back I remember hearing a story on the radio about a California town actually proposing to pass legislation preventing people from smoking in their own homes because houses were so close together the second hand smoke might reach the neighbors. The commentator even emphasized MIGHT.

* * * **
This is a real issue in condominiums, where people who smoke in their own units affect their non-smoking neighbors' because their smoke enters the common property elements.

287 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:39:03pm

re: #279 Cato the Elder

So being legal doesn't mean anything to you, or personal freedoms or responsibility, it seems.

288 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:39:51pm

re: #278 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't remember where, just the audacity of politicians who want to grab our personal freedoms for an ephemeral "common good".

You know as well as I know that there's nothing ephemeral or a basing of "common good" in it. They want control over our lives.

289 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:40:38pm

re: #172 wiffersnapper

Thank You For Smoking is hilarious.

book is a bit better then movie, but both are good

290 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:41:08pm

re: #288 Soona'

You know as well as I know that there's nothing ephemeral or a basing of "common good" in it. They want control over our lives.

Common good is the wedge used to get the grasp on control.

291 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:41:17pm

re: #280 Sharmuta

I did ask the kid of the anti-tobacco lawyer if they knew if it was the tobacco that caused health issues or if it was the additives tobacco companies put in their product.

He said they didn't know.

* * * *
Many lawyers in DC got rich quick off the Tobacco settlement back in the 90s "Campaign for Kids" or whatever they called it.

They laughed all the way to the bank.

292 Truck Monkey  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:41:20pm

re: #269 FurryOldGuyJeans

3rd is better than last.

That is just the 2nd loser!

//

293 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:41:34pm

re: #276 alegrias

Is HOLLYWOOD sin-taxed properly--everyone involved--in promoting cigarettes, drink, violence & random explosions & car chases & "bad behavior" on screen?

Hollywood is as complicit as the tobacco/"sinful" growers/manufacturers in the glamourization of what EVERYONE knows are behaviors toxic for the environment and toxic to human evolution.

Hollywood full of hypocrisy, as long as u pay them money, they will do anything u want and hide main facts from public

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:41:45pm

re: #285 rain of lead

re smoking
what is NEVER mentioned is how much money smoking saves the gov
in ss, medicare,medicade, hospital bills etc due to reduced lifespans

heard somewhere about a study that showed smokers actually made a profit for the gov due to these savings

Hold on while I throw up.

OK, has anyone done a study on how much money is saved by drunk drivers? They often take out several other people, thereby REALLY saving the government money.

295 JHW  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:41:59pm

re: #267 FurryOldGuyJeans

re: #272 Sharmuta

THE INCREASINGLY stringent smoking bans of the last decade seem to be aimed at transforming what was once a widely accepted habit into a shameful vice practiced only in the privacy of one's home. But even that refuge is no longer available to smokers in Belmont, California Belmont is a city in San Mateo County, California, United States. It is a small suburb in the San Francisco Bay Area, located half-way down the San Francisco Peninsula between San Mateo and San Carlos. The population was 25,123 at the 2000 census.
..... Click the link for more information., if they happen to live in an apartment or condominium.

Last fall the city council of Belmont, a town halfway between san Jose San Jose, city, United States
San Jose (sănəzā`, săn hōzā`), city (1990 pop. 782,248), seat of Santa Clara co., W central Calif.; founded 1777, inc. 1850.
..... Click the link for more information. and San Francisco San Francisco (săn frănsĭs`kō), city (1990 pop. 723,959), coextensive with San Francisco co., W Calif., on the tip of a peninsula between the Pacific Ocean and San Francisco Bay, which are connected by the strait known as the Golden , adopted what appears to be the first U.S. ordinance that prohibits smoking in private residences. It applies to any housing unit that shares a floor or ceiling with another housing unit, on the theory that the slightest whiff of secondhand smoke sec·ond·hand smoke
n.
Cigarette, cigar, or pipe smoke that is inhaled unintentionally by nonsmokers and may be injurious to their health if inhaled regularly over a long period. Also called passive smoke. poses an intolerable health hazard health hazard Occupational safety Any agent or activity posing a potential hazard to health. Cf Physical hazard. . Declaring that tobacco smoke is "extremely dangerous Exteremely Dangerous is a 1999 four part series for ITV starring Sean Bean as an ex-MI5 undercover agent convicted of the brutal murder of his wife and child who goes on the run to try and clear his name. He sets out to follow up a strange clue sent to him in prison.
..... Click the link for more information." regardless of dose, the ordinance also prohibits smoking in most public spaces outdoors.

Around the same time this ordinance received final approval, California passed a law that targets smoking in one of the few locations exempt from Belmont's ban: private automobiles. The Golden State joined the growing list of jurisdictions, including Arkansas, Louisiana, Puerto Rico, and Bangor, Maine, that prohibit smoking in vehicles carrying children. The Arkansas law covers vehicles carrying children who are under 6 and weigh less than 60 pounds--the same passengers who are required to ride in child safety seats. California's law, by contrast, applies to any cars with passengers under 18.

California's New Smoking Bans

I've read various things different municipalities have proposed, in addition to Calif. state laws, but can't find any refs right now.

296 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:42:27pm

re: #279 Cato the Elder

Yes, and like the baccy pushers, actually tried (and in some cases succeeded) to torpedo the careers of "rogue" scientists who spoke out.

At least asbestos has some legitimate uses other than to give you a short-lived buzz and turn you into *cough* anincomesourceforlife *cough* for the pushers.

Say whatever you want. Just leave me the freedom to conduct my life on my own decisions. Let me deal with the consequences.

297 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:42:28pm

re: #94 LGoPs

I should add: it is documented that jihadist terrorist organizations and their sympathizers within the U.S. already run tobacco smuggling operations out of North Carolina to fund their operations.

298 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:42:38pm

re: #292 Truck Monkey

That is just the 2nd loser!

//

You are right. Someday I hope to see a woman win that race.

299 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:43:39pm

re: #280 Sharmuta

I did ask the kid of the anti-tobacco lawyer if they knew if it was the tobacco that caused health issues or if it was the additives tobacco companies put in their product.

He said they didn't know.

That's a lawyer's kid talking.

Ask an oncologist's kid (me). Who used to smoke. The studies are incontrovertible. Tobacco all by itself is deadly. Additives (which until the new FDA powers go into effect have never had to be listed - unlike virtually any other consumable product we buy) are the icing on the cake. We'll know more when we find out what they actually are.

300 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:44:21pm

re: #295 JHW

Thanks for the info. I do believe Boulder had a similar proposal, though.

301 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:44:31pm

re: #290 FurryOldGuyJeans

Common good is the wedge used to get the grasp on control.

* * * *
Pres. Obama called off the "War on Drugs" and it's easier to go after the bad guys you know, than the drug cartels/druglords you'd rather not mess with.

302 UnfrozenCaveman  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:44:45pm

re: #250 zombie

So then you agree that the tobacco companies are being unfairly victimized here, that they ought not be held responsible for the bad decisions of their customers? You are saying it's the smokers' fault, it's their personal responsibility -- not the fault of the advertisers or the manufacturers.

Replace tobacco with gun and smoker with shooter.
Would you say the same thing?

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:45:06pm

re: #298 Afrocity

You are right. Someday I hope to see a woman win that race.

If a woman can win third, a woman can win the whole thing. The issue is numbers--whether other women will come into the sport, now that Patrick is making it visible.

304 UnfrozenCaveman  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:45:26pm

re: #296 Soona'

Say whatever you want. Just leave me the freedom to conduct my life on my own decisions. Let me deal with the consequences.

CAN I GET AN AMEN?!

305 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:45:30pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

That's a lawyer's kid talking.

Ask an oncologist's kid (me). Who used to smoke. The studies are incontrovertible. Tobacco all by itself is deadly. Additives (which until the new FDA powers go into effect have never had to be listed - unlike virtually any other consumable product we buy) are the icing on the cake. We'll know more when we find out what they actually are.

caffeine is also addictive, but nobody posts that label on bottles of pop, which kids consume in big amount

306 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:45:30pm

re: #297 quickjustice

I should add: it is documented that jihadist terrorist organizations and their sympathizers within the U.S. already run tobacco smuggling operations out of North Carolina to fund their operations.

Running illegal drugs is another revenue stream for the jihadis.

307 LGoPs  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:45:44pm

re: #297 quickjustice

I should add: it is documented that jihadist terrorist organizations and their sympathizers within the U.S. already run tobacco smuggling operations out of North Carolina to fund their operations.

Apparently, the increased taxes encourage the same criminal behavior as if there were a prohibition. I could've predicted this and I'm nowhere near as smart as our politicians and beauracrats are....
/

308 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:45:54pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

The list of 599 additives approved by the US Government for use in the manufacture of cigarettes is something every smoker should see.

[Link: quitsmoking.about.com...]

309 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:45:58pm

re: #296 Soona'

Say whatever you want. Just leave me the freedom to conduct my life on my own decisions. Let me deal with the consequences.

Fine. Then let the pot-loving engineer up the street in Suburbanville, the one with the steady job, the Hummer, the five-bedroom house, wife and 2.4 kids, churchgoer and taxpayer, do the same.

310 JHW  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:46:43pm

re: #300 Sharmuta

Sorry for too much extraneous info in that quote, it copied everything clickable, first time I've ever seen that. I should know better, PIMF.

311 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:46:53pm

re: #305 Gella

caffeine is also addictive, but nobody posts that label on bottles of pop, which kids consume in big amount

Caffeine doesn't cause illness and death when used as intended. Tobacco does.

312 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:47:13pm

re: #308 Sharmuta

The list of 599 additives approved by the US Government for use in the manufacture of cigarettes is something every smoker should see.

[Link: quitsmoking.about.com...]

When can smokers sue the government for this? They are responsible as much as big tobacco.

313 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:47:15pm

re: #298 Afrocity

You are right. Someday I hope to see a woman win that race.

They're talking to Danica now. Classy lady. Have I mentioned that she's gorgeous?

314 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:48:38pm

re: #311 Cato the Elder

Caffeine doesn't cause illness and death when used as intended. Tobacco does.

see, but does kids know how to use it? i read somewhere that kids suffer from insomnia because of it
u can argue about that subject forever, substituting nicotine for caffeine, guns, cars, etc...

315 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:48:52pm

Meanwhile the illegal drug cartels laugh all the way to the banks.

316 Afrocity  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:49:08pm

re: #313 Soona'

They're talking to Danica now. Classy lady. Have I mentioned that she's gorgeous?

She is gorgeous. She seems disappointed, she had a bad pit stop in the 2nd half...could have been the difference.

317 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:49:10pm

re: #302 UnfrozenCaveman

Replace tobacco with gun and smoker with shooter.
Would you say the same thing?

Up-dinged ya'.

318 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:49:18pm

re: #311 Cato the Elder

Caffeine doesn't cause illness and death when used as intended. Tobacco does.

ohh and don't forget drugs like pot and coke

319 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:49:46pm

re: #302 UnfrozenCaveman

Replace tobacco with gun and smoker with shooter.
Would you say the same thing?

I don't and would never blame the gun manufacturers for the actions of gun-owners. I think such lawsuits (against gun-makers for gun-crimes) are nuisance suits.

However, the key difference is that gun-makers have never advertised heavily, and when they did advetise, they never hid the fact that guns can shoot people. The issue here is the deceptiveness of the advertisements, not the inherent danger of the product.

320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:50:09pm

re: #270 rain of lead

whats an Irsay?

Just took off in the middle of the night with the Baltimore Colts and moved them to Indianapolis. I'd be funny if Phillip Morris just said, "Screw You Guys! We're moving to Bolivia."

321 LGoPs  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:50:21pm

re: #309 Cato the Elder

Fine. Then let the pot-loving engineer up the street in Suburbanville, the one with the steady job, the Hummer, the five-bedroom house, wife and 2.4 kids, churchgoer and taxpayer, do the same.

The fact remains that one is legal, the other is not. If you want to push for legalization of weed, that's fine...... I'm starting to incline that way myself. What I don't like is the de-facto prohibition the government is imposing thru taxes and no-smoking laws on what is still a legal product.

322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:50:43pm

re: #313 Soona'

They're talking to Danica now. Classy lady. Have I mentioned that she's gorgeous?

Danica's a she?
/

323 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:50:50pm

re: #305 Gella

caffeine is also addictive, but nobody posts that label on bottles of pop, which kids consume in big amount

They ought to. I'm very much in favor of labeling laws. Label the hell out of dangerous stuff so people know it's dangerous.

324 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:50:56pm

re: #308 Sharmuta

[Link: quitsmoking.about.com...]

Yes, there is that list. I'm aware of it.

Before this new law, however, no tobacco maker has been obliged to say what's in their particular jolly product. So whether you're getting ammonia, asafedita or ethyl octadecanoate was (is) known only to them and God. You, the consumer, take your chances.

325 rain of lead  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:51:59pm

re: #320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

ok gotcha.
yep that would work

326 Truck Monkey  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:52:16pm

re: #298 Afrocity

You are right. Someday I hope to see a woman win that race.

She did remarkably well considering she probably spent a lot of time yelling at the kids in the backseat and messing around with her makeup while looking in the rearview mirror!
/////

327 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:52:22pm

I also fail to see the difference between Joe Camel and Ronald McDonald.

328 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:52:41pm

re: #320 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just took off in the middle of the night with the Baltimore Colts and moved them to Indianapolis. I'd be funny if Phillip Morris just said, "Screw You Guys! We're moving to Bolivia."

* * *
Well, Bolivia's president Evo Morales IS a coca growing, coca chewing leftist who would say "Bienvenidos, Tabacaleros".

Betcha he'd nationalize Phillip Morris' "Yankee" operation and TAX the heck out of it, just because.

329 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:52:56pm

re: #287 FurryOldGuyJeans

scrollover file

330 quickjustice  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:53:17pm

More on the "Torches of Freedom" public relations campaign to persuade women to smoke here: [Link: www.culturewars.com...]

331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:53:35pm

re: #328 alegrias

Okay...then India.

332 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:54:09pm

re: #324 Cato the Elder

Yes, there is that list. I'm aware of it.

Before this new law, however, no tobacco maker has been obliged to say what's in their particular jolly product. So whether you're getting ammonia, asafedita or ethyl octadecanoate was (is) known only to them and God. You, the consumer, take your chances.

I wonder if food companies will have to start adding the amount of insects and other critters that get into our mass produced food.

Not trying to make excuses for the tobacco companies, BTW. Just that there is blame to go around, not the least of which is on the individual smoker.

333 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:55:34pm

re: #324 Cato the Elder

Yes, there is that list. I'm aware of it.

Before this new law, however, no tobacco maker has been obliged to say what's in their particular jolly product. So whether you're getting ammonia, asafedita or ethyl octadecanoate was (is) known only to them and God. You, the consumer, take your chances.

* * * * *
As if the Mexican drug cartels have to label anything they sell...

This administration behavior is like the UN's approach to everything: go after the USA tobacco producers with everything you've got, but let the 3rd world narco/drug traffickers go scott free, or subsidize them by calling OFF the "War on Drugs" so they can enter the US with their unlabelled drugs more easily.

334 UnfrozenCaveman  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:56:27pm

re: #319 zombie

I don't and would never blame the gun manufacturers for the actions of gun-owners. I think such lawsuits (against gun-makers for gun-crimes) are nuisance suits.

However, the key difference is that gun-makers have never advertised heavily, and when they did advetise, they never hid the fact that guns can shoot people. The issue here is the deceptiveness of the advertisements, not the inherent danger of the product.

Ok, you have a point. I am disappointed I never became a rugged cowboy after smoking a cigarette.
Honestly, where's the ad that says you'll live longer by smoking their product? Who doesn't know cigarettes are bad for you? They, obviously, haven't been paying attention. Tobacco companies don't need to hide the fact that it's not healthy, everyone else is doing a fantastic job of shoving it down our throats already.
If you want to talk deceptiveness, then what about liquor ads? Car ads?

335 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:56:28pm

re: #319 zombie

I don't and would never blame the gun manufacturers for the actions of gun-owners. I think such lawsuits (against gun-makers for gun-crimes) are nuisance suits.

However, the key difference is that gun-makers have never advertised heavily, and when they did advetise, they never hid the fact that guns can shoot people. The issue here is the deceptiveness of the advertisements, not the inherent danger of the product.

Not to mention the deception and denial practiced by the companies outside of their advertising practices. I don't think a lawyer for Smith and Wesson has ever told Congress that guns were not really dangerous.

336 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:56:33pm

I also think fanning the flames of anti-tobacco fuel the whole victim mentality that is far too prevalent in this day and age. Folks talk about returning to personal responsibility, but they don't really want it.

337 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:57:41pm

re: #331 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay...then India.

* * * * *
India's 700 million people held an election, and voted to be pro-USA. India can do anything it wants in my book! Including pound Pakistan into this century.

338 Sharmuta  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:58:05pm

I'm a victim of big coffee. I'm suing Starbucks.

339 UnfrozenCaveman  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:58:12pm

Ok, show of hands. How many here are actually smokers? From habitual to recreational, (like me) just raise your hand.

340 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:58:20pm

re: #323 zombie

They ought to. I'm very much in favor of labeling laws. Label the hell out of dangerous stuff so people know it's dangerous.

"It does say it, it's down there next to monosodium glutamate."

"I 'ardly think that's good enough! I think it would be more appropriate if it said in big red letters, WARNING! LARK'S VOMIT!"

"Our sales would plummet!"

"FUCK your sales!"

Bless Python...

341 SixDegrees  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:58:43pm

re: #139 vxbush

I had a friend who was told by her doctor: because of her small pelvis, when she decided to have kids she should continue to smoke to make sure the babies would be small enough to fit through if she wanted to avoid a caesarean section.

I suppose my position would be, I'd sacrifice just about everything to keep my children healthy, including let them slice and dice me if it keeps my baby healthy.

Smoking reduces oxygen throughout the smoker's system; as a result, it reduces oxygen supply to the fetus.

No doctor would ever make such a recommendation. I suspect that your friend is remembering things differently from the way they actually happened.

342 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:59:44pm

re: #319 zombie

I don't and would never blame the gun manufacturers for the actions of gun-owners. I think such lawsuits (against gun-makers for gun-crimes) are nuisance suits.

However, the key difference is that gun-makers have never advertised heavily, and when they did advetise, they never hid the fact that guns can shoot people. The issue here is the deceptiveness of the advertisements, not the inherent danger of the product.

So your saying that Americans are bereft of any common sense or intelligence about the dangers of tobacco? The 40's and 50's were a long time ago and it has been pointed out by several commentors that, even then, people inherently knew that smoking could be bad for you.

343 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:00:12pm

re: #333 alegrias

* * * * *
As if the Mexican drug cartels have to label anything they sell...

This administration behavior is like the UN's approach to everything: go after the USA tobacco producers with everything you've got, but let the 3rd world narco/drug traffickers go scott free, or subsidize them by calling OFF the "War on Drugs" so they can enter the US with their unlabelled drugs more easily.

Illegal drugs are by their very nature impossible to regulate.

Are you saying the government therefore has no right or duty to regulate legal products?

Hmm.

344 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:00:28pm

re: #338 Sharmuta

I'm a victim of big coffee. I'm suing Starbucks.

u know, at one point i wanted to save money on coffee and instead of Starbucks, i just wanted to place a center line from my coffee maker .... :)

345 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:01:09pm

re: #334 UnfrozenCaveman

Ok, you have a point. I am disappointed I never became a rugged cowboy after smoking a cigarette.
Honestly, where's the ad that says you'll live longer by smoking their product? Who doesn't know cigarettes are bad for you? They, obviously, haven't been paying attention. Tobacco companies don't need to hide the fact that it's not healthy, everyone else is doing a fantastic job of shoving it down our throats already.
If you want to talk deceptiveness, then what about liquor ads? Car ads?

Election ads...

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:01:19pm

re: #344 Gella

u know, at one point i wanted to save money on coffee and instead of Starbucks, i just wanted to place a center line from my coffee maker .... :)

Works for me. Of course, I am the daughter of a woman who always taught me to go for the chocolate without nuts, because it's easier to melt it in the spoon...

347 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:01:45pm

re: #342 Soona'

So your saying that Americans are bereft of any common sense or intelligence about the dangers of tobacco? The 40's and 50's were a long time ago and it has been pointed out by several commentors that, even then, people inherently knew that smoking could be bad for you.

* * * *
Addictive substances generally overpower common sense.

Why else do people risk life & limb to sell them to addicted people?

348 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:02:19pm

re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist

Works for me. Of course, I am the daughter of a woman who always taught me to go for the chocolate without nuts, because it's easier to melt it in the spoon...

LOL, ya i am a chocoholic and i admit it, at one point i want to create a chocoholic anonymous group, i hope its not to late to do

349 debutaunt  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:02:35pm

re: #340 SanFranciscoZionist

Bring on the crunchy frog.

350 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:03:23pm

re: #342 Soona'

So your saying that Americans are bereft of any common sense or intelligence about the dangers of tobacco? The 40's and 50's were a long time ago and it has been pointed out by several commentors that, even then, people inherently knew that smoking could be bad for you.

Well, I wasn't around then, so I don't know what the average American thought in the '40s or '50s. All I know is, both my parents, who had advanced degrees and were highly educated and intelligent and self-aware, smoked like chimneys until the '70s, when they finally thought it would be a good idea to stop. It could very well be that before my time, the average intelligent American didn't know how dangerous tobacco was -- partly due to the fact that the tobacco companies covered it up.

351 alegrias  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:04:31pm

re: #343 Cato the Elder

Illegal drugs are by their very nature impossible to regulate.

Are you saying the government therefore has no right or duty to regulate legal products?

Hmm.

* * * *
I'm saying it's convenient to go after the incorporated businesses that are sitting ducks.

Combatting powerful drug cartels that employ armies, use military weapons and murder gangland style? Scary! Impossible! ///

(not buying it)

352 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:05:06pm

Well, this former smoker is off to shore up his diminished lung capacity with a daily swim at the Y.

Wishing you all the best of health!

353 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:06:37pm

re: #345 debutaunt

Up-ding for you too.

354 sattv4u2  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:08:43pm

re: #350 zombie

I was 14 (in 1967) when I started smoking
I was 14 (in 1967) when I knew it wasn't good for you
I was 14 (in 1967) and at that time there were NO warning labels on it to tell me it was bad for me
I was 14 (in 1967) ,,, nuff said!


(quite cold turkey some 18 years later)

355 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:10:13pm

re: #350 zombie

Well, I wasn't around then, so I don't know what the average American thought in the '40s or '50s. All I know is, both my parents, who had advanced degrees and were highly educated and intelligent and self-aware, smoked like chimneys until the '70s, when they finally thought it would be a good idea to stop. It could very well be that before my time, the average intelligent American didn't know how dangerous tobacco was -- partly due to the fact that the tobacco companies covered it up.

You still can't see the point, can you? Maybe the generational knowledge gap is deeper than I thought.

356 SixDegrees  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:11:16pm

re: #121 satan sidekick

I was curious about this too. One out of every 9 smokers will get emphysema or cancer from smoking. They've recently discovered that smoking activates a genetic predisposition that causes emphysema. I know it has in my family as three generations of smokers have it. Only 20% of smokers get emphysema and even less (not sure of percentage) get lung cancer.

As noted in my earlier post, the absolute percentages are meaningless. It is the relative incidence rates that matter. Only 20% of smokers may get emphysema, but non-smokers contract it at a fractional percentage rate - let's say 0.2%. Smoking increases your chances of getting this horrible disease by a couple order of magnitude.

Same with lung cancer. The absolute rate as a percentage of the entire smoking population is small. The rate for the non-smoking population, however, is 50 times smaller. And that's even before taking into account that smokers have a shorter lifespan due to other reasons, like increased rate of heart disease and lung disease, so many don't live long enough to show up in the cancer statistics.

357 solomonpanting  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:11:56pm

re: #227 Alouette

The week before he died, Lincoln visited Monroe, Maryland
The week before he died, Kennedy visited Marilyn Monroe

-Lincoln was born in a log cabin.
-Kennedy once threw up in the back of his father's limosine after eating pancakes with log cabin syrup.

358 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:13:52pm

re: #273 Nevergiveup

Who is this guy who won?

I once asked for a smoking table in a Boulder restaurant. Without batting an eye I was shown to an outdoor table - in January, in a snow storm.

359 Soona'  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:14:29pm

re: #348 Gella

LOL, ya i am a chocoholic and i admit it, at one point i want to create a chocoholic anonymous group, i hope its not to late to do

(Raising hand shyly and reluctantly) I'm Soona' and I'm a (choke) chocoholic.

360 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:16:37pm

re: #358 The Shadow Do

Oops, should have been 272

361 Gella  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:28:55pm

re: #359 Soona'

(Raising hand shyly and reluctantly) I'm Soona' and I'm a (choke) chocoholic.

welcome to the club :)))))
just remember, you are not alone :)

362 Altermite  Sun, May 24, 2009 2:39:27pm

On the note of tobacco ads, I recently listened to some recordings of Abbott and Costello from their old radio show. The radio station was owned by camel, and the ad time was peppered with ads.

Remember the 4/5 dentists agree/prefer ads? It was like that, but with doctors and Camel Cigarettes. There was tons of this stuff.

363 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:11:08pm
364 Wendya  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:21:36pm

re: #334 UnfrozenCaveman

Who doesn't know cigarettes are bad for you? They, obviously, haven't been paying attention. Tobacco companies don't need to hide the fact that it's not healthy, everyone else is doing a fantastic job of shoving it down our throats already.

Wouldn't it be nice if the media spent an equal amount of time warning us about the dangers of government intervention into the lives of citizens? What if the government were required to attach a warning level to each piece of legislation they pass?

I can choose to smoke or not. I can't choose not to be over regulated or overtaxed. "Big Tobacco" isn't nearly as dangerous and insidious as "Big Government".

365 Wendya  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:27:13pm

re: #127 zombie

But I agree with those laws that require background checks and waiting periods. Because I don't want the "bad guys" to get their hands on them that easily.

How does a waiting period help keep weapons out of the hands of criminals?

An instant background check to exclude felons prevents an illegal sale but a waiting period only denies a citizen of their right to purchase a firearm when they want it, not when the government thinks they should have it.

366 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:31:51pm

re: #363 Iron Fist

The problem of felons buying a gun is really a red herring. If someone is such a dangerous criminal that they can't be trusted to own a gun, why are they being let out of jail? If they have served their time, and are no longer considered to be a threat to society, why restrict them from buying a gun?

Therein lies the rub.

This country if full of career criminals. They have to be let out of jail because the sentence for the particular crime they were convicted of carried a very specific limited sentence. We can't lock people up indefinitely -- that itself is unconstitutional. We gotta let 'em out when their sentence is up. But everyone knows exactly what they're going to do the moment they get out -- go back to a life of crime. Happens every day of the year. Just in my neighborhood this week they caught a car burglar who had been smashing car windows and grabbing stuff off the seat inside dozens of times over the last month -- often several times a day. A one-man crime wave. Turns out, once they caught him and looked up his rap sheet -- he had been released from a three-year sentence for an earlier car burglary conviction, and had gotten out the very day the crime wave started. The same is true for all sorts of criminals -- including those who use guns.

We just have to accept the fact that we must live in a society brimming with career criminals on the loose, day in, day out. And because of that, we don't want to pass out machine guns like candy to whomever wants them. We need to make sure that the person getting the gun isn't already a known gun-using criminal. Makes common sense. It's not a red herring, because we can't keep them locked up, and allowing them full gun ownership rights after being convicted of a gun felony is foolish in the extreme.

The reasonable, moderate approach is to honor and keep the Second Amendment while simply asking for waiting periods and background checks in order to get a gun and/or a gun permit. This approach is constitutional, allows law-abinding gun-owners to get their guns, while at the same time at least trying to limit the legal access of guns to those who ought not to have them.

Yes, they can always buy them illegally in the back alley, but that doesn't mean we should give up the fight altogether.

367 zombie  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:33:52pm

re: #365 Wendya

How does a waiting period help keep weapons out of the hands of criminals?

An instant background check to exclude felons prevents an illegal sale but a waiting period only denies a citizen of their right to purchase a firearm when they want it, not when the government thinks they should have it.

It prevents impulse purchases, which are the kind of purchases dumb criminals often make. It's been shown that waiting periods deter felons from buying firearms, while not deterring law-abiding people nearly so much.

368 ihateronpaul  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:38:48pm

Why do conservatives (Mark Levin, Rush Limbaugh etc.) love to support the tobacco companies, and yet demonize marijuana? Can't they take the most reasonable position that both can be potentially harmful but the government should not be restricting the use of them?

369 [deleted]  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:44:46pm
370 Wendya  Sun, May 24, 2009 3:48:11pm

re: #367 zombie

It prevents impulse purchases, which are the kind of purchases dumb criminals often make. It's been shown that waiting periods deter felons from buying firearms, while not deterring law-abiding people nearly so much.

Zombie, felons are already deterred from legally buying firearms. A waiting period doesn't matter to them but it can make a huge difference in the life of someone who wishes to exercise their right to defend their life and property from someone who has threatened them.

371 capt26thga  Sun, May 24, 2009 5:04:14pm

I don't like tobacco at all But...... this is bad. When the first suit against tobacco was won it opened pandoras box. One of these days some serious tort reform is going to have to happen. Nothing, no industry nor person is safe from lawyers.
If I sue you and lose, I should have to pay for your attorney, court costs and my attorney. That would slow things down some what.
Anyone with any better ideas?

372 Maui Girl  Sun, May 24, 2009 7:12:57pm

This is just stupid and ridiculous in my opinion. People have known for eons that smoking is bad for their health and addictive, just like alcohol yet they still indulge. Why blame the big tobacco companies for the stupidity of the human race? This just gets my goat. Whatever happened to caveat emptor. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions? Hot Coffee= burn if dropped in lap. Smoking causes lung cancer.

oh yeh, I'm an ex-smoker. 23 years. Cold Turkey.

Gotta go. Happy Memorial Day everyone!

373 lostlakehiker  Sun, May 24, 2009 9:11:31pm

re: #192 zombie

Maybe I'm too young, but I never saw any of what is alleged. From infancy, cigarettes were always portrayed to me as noxious, cancer-causing coffin nails, both in the media and in the social environment. Even in school, the peer-pressure was that cigarettes were the height of uncool, the mark of a loser.

In my earliest memories, cigs were hawked on TV, they were glamorous on the screen, magazines hawked them too, there were candy cigarettes at halloween, and real cigs were in circulation among kids, furtively, but still.

Parents had a different story. And you didn't get a prescription to quit. You did, or you didn't. The one who smoked, did quit.

374 Gretchen  Sun, May 24, 2009 9:43:29pm

When will there be a racketeering charge against AL Gore for climate hysteria?

375 Pupdawg  Mon, May 25, 2009 5:55:18am

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

If tobacco was known by the government as long as has been reported why are they not on trial for racketeering? They knowing let a harmful substance be sold to generate tax revenues.

You've got something there. After the Govt. has taxed and fined them to the brink of Kevorkian care, the Justice Department should start RICO proceedings against Big T. Then, Obama can then fire all the CEO's, take over the business and go global with 'green' smokes that offer a Carbon Credit Card in every pack with the likeness of one of your favorite comrades in history on each card. The price per pack can naturally go higher since Carbon Credits will be in play as you huffpo and puffpo your way into the grave which by that time along with nationalized/globalized healthcare Prez Obama and the US will own all the funeral businesses as well and that is the precise meaning of 'cradle to grave' coverage. BTW, extra fees will be assessed for funeralization for negative impact and global warming emissions as you decay but look on the bright side you were doing your part until the very end...carbon credits fees itemized on your funeralization invoice, non-tax deductible naturally since by that time nothing will be tax deductible. Unfortunately, POTW (president of the world) Obama will decree a moratorium (pun intended) on cremations worldwide due to ozone depleting pollution from the process...you can smoke but ultimately you cannot smoke.

I know...I need to get a grip.


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