Auto Industry Bankruptcy Watch

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General Motors is on the fast track to bankruptcy:

DETROIT/BERLIN (Reuters) – General Motors Corp appeared to clear a major hurdle on its way to filing the kind of bankruptcy it favors on Thursday by persuading major bondholders to accept a sweetened deal — even as talks over the carmaker’s Opel unit stalled.

But the troubles of the U.S. car industry took a potentially ominous new turn when two suppliers, including former Ford Motor Co unit Visteon Corp, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection — a move that some analysts worried could affect Ford’s liquidity. …

GM said it had reached a deal with some major bondholders that would give them a bigger stake in a reorganized automaker and could pave the way for a fast-track bankruptcy backed by the U.S. Treasury. …

Under the proposed deal, bondholders representing $27 billion in debt would be offered 10 percent of a reorganized GM — the same stake they had been offered previously.

But as an incentive, bondholders would also receive warrants to acquire another 15 percent of the equity in the new company, provided they support a quick Treasury-backed sale process similar to one now being used for rival Chrysler.

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325 comments

1 Orangutan  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:02:55pm

magically delicious

2 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:05:05pm

I’m a little lost here.

Didn’t the administration just give them billions of tax payer dollars and a majority ownership position to the UAW so they wouldn’t have to declare?

3 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:05:10pm

re: #1 Orangutan

magically delicious

No, it isn’t. It’s actually pretty damn sad.

4 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:05:51pm
But as an incentive, bondholders would also receive warrants to acquire another 15 percent of the equity in the new company, provided they support a quick Treasury-backed sale process similar to one now being used for rival Chrysler.


Does than mean we will sell them our (the government’s) shares of GM?

5 wiffersnapper  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:06:15pm

This calls for another bailout! But this time with monopoly money.

6 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:06:23pm

congrats GM, you too UAW.

7 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:06:35pm

So, the U.S. government invested all our tax money in a company about to go bankrupt.

I feel sooooooo happy and confident that the governement is making my investment decisions for me. Tax me more and invest it all in more doomed and badly managed companies! Wheeeee!

8 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:06:53pm

The Feds and the UAW like this deal since they are the direct beneficiaries, 72.5% and 17.5% stake respectively. The sooner GM declares bankruptcy, the sooner the looting of the corporation can begin.

9 MrSilverDragon  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:06:54pm

So, I just paid a whole lot of tax money out of pocket to keep them afloat? Where the heck is my percentage?

/bitter

10 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:08:14pm

re: #2 Ben Hur

We were just discussion that an the previous thread. It looks like the government gets 72% of the company and the union get 17%.

11 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:08:22pm

re: #9 MrSilverDragon

So, I just paid a whole lot of tax money out of pocket to keep them afloat? Where the heck is my percentage?

/bitter

I would laugh at the situation if I didn’t feel like a Ponzi or Madoff investor right now with all my tax monies.

12 subsailor68  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:09:31pm

I’m no financial expert (wow, understatement!), but were I a GM bondholder, I believe I’d be looking for a way out as quickly as possible (given that I sure wouldn’t want pennies on the dollar).

The reason? I can’t imagine I’d ever find it a good idea to invest in a company where the government owns 71.5 percent and the union owns 18.5 percent.

Neither of those have EVER demonstrated they know how to either a) build cars or b) successfully run a company.

13 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:09:40pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

We were just discussion that an the previous thread. It looks like the government gets 72% of the company and the union get 17%.

And yet any talk of the Feds trying to nationalize commanding heights of the economy is sheer hysteria, fit only for Paulians and Stormfronters.

/

14 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:09:45pm

re: #7 zombie

So, the U.S. government invested all our tax money in a company about to go bankrupt.

I feel sooooooo happy and confident that the governement is making my investment decisions for me.

I think it was to give them enough time to control the process and restructure instead of just imploding and disappearing.

15 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:09:50pm

This is all part of Obama’s plan. It includes no strong action against North Korea.
See, we’ll all have to buy GM, Chrysler, and Ford cars after Kim Jong Il nukes South Korea (Hyundai, KIA, etc.) and Japan.
Then the government will get its bailout money back, and there will be full employment in car repair shops fixing all the poorly built cars.
/DO I NEED TO?

16 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:09:53pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

We were just discussion that an the previous thread. It looks like the government gets 72% of the company and the union get 17%.

So they re-worked the deal?

Unless I’m confusing two different things.

17 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:09:53pm

re: #2 Ben Hur

I’m a little lost here.

Didn’t the administration just give them billions of tax payer dollars and a majority ownership position to the UAW so they wouldn’t have to declare?

No, they gave the monies so they could maneuver a better take-over scheme.

18 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:10:04pm

re: #11 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is Obama the new Madoff?

19 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:10:19pm

This might have a chilling affect on any privatization of Social Security. Do we really want the government making these sorts of decisions with our money?

20 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:10:23pm

I’m glad I drive a Ford!

21 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:10:42pm

re: #13 Occasional Reader

Yes. The government will soon sell their shares at a profit. This isn’t a permanent nationalization of the company.

22 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:10:43pm

re: #17 FurryOldGuyJeans

No, they gave the monies so they could maneuver a better take-over scheme.

OK.

Then I am thinking of the same deal.

23 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:10:59pm

re: #18 zombie

Is Obama the new Madoff?

I would say ALL of the Federal government is, not just one individual.

24 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:11:33pm

re: #16 Ben Hur

Even this deal will probably change. Things change and not all reports are accurate.

25 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:12:12pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Even this deal will probably change. Things change and not all reports are accurate.

Government and politicians wanting control never does, though.

26 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:12:18pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Yes. The government will soon sell their shares at a profit. This isn’t a permanent nationalization of the company.

That assumes GM recovers; that is not at all assured.
First, people who know how to make cars aren’t going to thrive in this environment, and second, the government interference (build “green” cars, not cars people actually want) will make it worse.

27 subsailor68  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:12:55pm

I believe it was P.J. O’Rourke who wrote about a car company:

“They’re losing money on every car, but plan to make it up in volume.”

For those of us here at LGF, it’s a funny line.

I’m afraid that government bureaucrats will consider that the basis of their new business model.

28 HelloDare  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:13:06pm

re: #18 zombie

Is Obama the new Madoff?

Obamadoff?

29 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:13:20pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Even this deal will probably change. Things change and not all reports are accurate.

Did the union get a sh*tload of money, or not?

30 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:13:25pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

I think it was to give them enough time to control the process and restructure instead of just imploding and disappearing.

A company that badly managed might need to implode and disappear. Sure, doing so would give a big hit to our economy, but after they go belly up, we can start to recover economically, leaner and more efficient.

This way, we’ve just shackled ourselves to a ponderous, sick and gangrenous patient. GM will drag down our national economy for years to come. Better to have made a clean break and get the pain over with.

31 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:15:10pm

re: #26 Kosh’s Shadow

In the short term I think the stock price will rise once the company emerges from bankruptcy and the economy stabilizes. The last CEO ran the stock into the ground, it couldn’t get much worse.

32 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:15:21pm

re: #29 Ben Hur

Did the union get a sh*tload of money, or not?

Yes, up front and when the looting of GM begins after the “restructuring”.

33 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:16:08pm

re: #29 Ben Hur

Not sure, I haven’t read all the details of this new plan.

34 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:16:13pm

I think this is what happens with uncontrolled Union influence and greed.

35 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:16:26pm

re: #30 zombie

A company that badly managed might need to implode and disappear. Sure, doing so would give a big hit to our economy, but after they go belly up, we can start to recover economically, leaner and more efficient.

This way, we’ve just shackled ourselves to a ponderous, sick and gangrenous patient. GM will drag down our national economy for years to come. Better to have made a clean break and get the pain over with.

Hard to loot a failed and disappeared corporation, and means more money up front to buy votes.

36 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:16:32pm

re: #26 Kosh’s Shadow

That assumes GM recovers; that is not at all assured.
First, people who know how to make cars aren’t going to thrive in this environment, and second, the government interference (build “green” cars, not cars people actually want) will make it worse.

I agree. GM will lumber along, sick and unrecovering, for years, and will never regain a leadership position. I predict that eventually GM will become a small specialty company that will produce parts and military vehicles, but no consumer vehicles at all. Its stock will just go lower.

37 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:16:33pm

re: #32 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes, up front and when the looting of GM begins after the “restructuring”.

Payback for election support.

38 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:16:54pm

re: #30 zombie

Yeah, I’d guess the new company won’t last more than ten or twenty years.

39 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:17:10pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

I think this is what happens with uncontrolled Union influence and greed.

Don’t forget uncontrolled one-party politics.

40 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:17:37pm
41 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:18:02pm

re: #26 Kosh’s Shadow

That assumes GM recovers; that is not at all assured.
First, people who know how to make cars aren’t going to thrive in this environment, and second, the government interference (build “green” cars, not cars people actually want) will make it worse.

The transition period (6-10 yrs) will be very dangerous road wise. The new green lighter smaller cars will be traveling the same roads and highways with the older heavier vehicles. Øbama’s 1100 pound green subcompact versus the 4500 pound Cadillac Escalade. I ain’t getting one of those.

42 abolitionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:18:28pm

Spare parts are an significant part of automotive marketing/support/infrastructure. Have to wonder if hundreds of millions of vehicle owners are now being viewed as oxen to be gored, and by whom.

43 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:18:29pm

re: #40 taxfreekiller

“Hammer and Scythe Motors”

Yeah, the car sucks, but the hood ornament’s got that whole retro thing.

44 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:19:06pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I’d guess the new company won’t last more than ten or twenty years.

re: #40 taxfreekiller

“Hammer and Scythe Motors”

What with the government dictating car design, GM might very well become the new Trabant.

45 Dahveed  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:19:47pm

Mark Steyn said it best. He said that GM was a healthcare company that sold cars on the side. There is no doubt about that.

The unions took and took, but when it came time for them to give back some, they were nowhere to be found. And GM management let them get away with it too.

46 Wide Right  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:20:07pm

re: #30 zombie

I agree that a “clean break” is the best way to go, but that wouldn’t be very beneficial to the mighty UAW and that’s really what it’s all about.

47 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:20:12pm

re: #44 zombie

What with the government dictating car design, GM might very well become the new Trabant.

They’ll have a new hybrid - bicycle pedals AND an electric motor. Pedal hard enough and you can charge the battery.
/

48 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:21:15pm

re: #47 Kosh’s Shadow

Yabba-dabba-doo!

49 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:21:32pm

re: #45 Dahveed

Mark Steyn said it best. He said that GM was a healthcare company that sold cars on the side. There is no doubt about that.

The unions took and took, but when it came time for them to give back some, they were nowhere to be found. And GM management let them get away with it too.

GM Management really didn’t have too much say in the matter when the threat of the Government hammer was used.

50 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:21:39pm

re: #47 Kosh’s Shadow

They’ll have a new hybrid - bicycle pedals AND an electric motor. Pedal hard enough and you can charge the battery.
/

Yeah, but that battery’ll only give you about 30 minutes’ listening to the NPR affiliates, well below the mandatory 90 minutes’ daily listening.

52 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:22:30pm
53 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:22:49pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

Yeah, but that battery’ll only give you about 30 minutes’ listening to the NPR affiliates, well below the mandatory 90 minutes’ daily listening.

Just as long as you get your mandatory 5 Minute Hate session against the evils of Capitalism.

54 ConservatismNow!  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:23:09pm

re: #52 taxfreekiller

Best deal the IRS can manage.

No refunds if you over pay your IRS,, , you get stock options, in “Hammer and Scythe Motors”.

Don’t even joke about that.

55 subsailor68  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:23:40pm

re: #41 unrealizedviewpoint

The transition period (6-10 yrs) will be very dangerous road wise. The new green lighter smaller cars will be traveling the same roads and highways with the older heavier vehicles. Øbama’s 1100 pound green subcompact versus the 4500 pound Cadillac Escalade. I ain’t getting one of those.

That makes two of us! I live in rural Texas. For every car on the road, there are about 2756 freakin’ deer. Forget the Escalade - a decent size doe would turn the Obamacycle into a twisted piece of aluminum.

And I bet installing a deerbuster on the grill would cause the dam thing to tip over onto its nose.

;-)

56 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:24:14pm

re: #51 zombie

The new government-mandated “green” car design for GM.

Why worry about what the government mandates when they will be controlling all aspects of our lives anyway?

57 KenJen  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:24:45pm

re: #20 Macker

I’m glad I drive a Ford!

Question. Can the U.A.W. strike against Ford? Could they run Ford out of business to benefit the company they now have a share in? How can they fairly represent workers at Ford and their own workers at GM? Am I missing something?

58 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:24:50pm

re: #53 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just as long as you get your mandatory 5 Minute Hate session against the evils of Capitalism.

And hear the One’s daily affirmation (of himself)

59 Dahveed  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:25:00pm

re: #49 FurryOldGuyJeans

I really mean that management let the union get away with crazy collective bargaining provisions over the years. They had some kind of room for idle workers to sit in and not work, but get paid however much of their salary. Perhaps someone knows more about it than I do, but there were huge amounts that management gave to the union workers for almost anything.

60 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:25:20pm

The car industry could make it if they’d ditch the unions. Maybe.

61 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:25:52pm

re: #40 taxfreekiller

“Hammer and Scythe Sickle Motors”

There, fixed that for ya!

62 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:26:04pm

re: #55 subsailor68

That makes two of us! I live in rural Texas. For every car on the road, there are about 2756 freakin’ deer. Forget the Escalade - a decent size doe would turn the Obamacycle into a twisted piece of aluminum.

And I bet installing a deerbuster on the grill would cause the dam thing to tip over onto its nose.

;-)

I’ve lived and live in areas with substantial deer populations. I am more worried about other drivers, even if they are driving the Obamabiles.

63 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:26:04pm

For some reason, I keep thinking about the film, “Tommy Boy.”

64 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:26:25pm

re: #63 Ben Hur

LOL

65 Former Belgian  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:27:04pm

re: #44 zombie

What with the government dictating car design, GM might very well become the new Trabant.

heh!

66 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:27:09pm

re: #59 Dahveed

I really mean that management let the union get away with crazy collective bargaining provisions over the years. They had some kind of room for idle workers to sit in and not work, but get paid however much of their salary. Perhaps someone knows more about it than I do, but there were huge amounts that management gave to the union workers for almost anything.

They had no choice, the government told them they had to do what they UAW wanted or they would be prosecuted.

67 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:27:12pm

re: #60 Sharmuta

The car industry could make it if they’d ditch the unions. Maybe.

This whole government guided bankruptcy is being done to “protect” the union.

68 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:27:28pm

re: #45 Dahveed

Mark Steyn said it best. He said that GM was a healthcare company that sold cars on the side. There is no doubt about that.

The unions took and took, but when it came time for them to give back some, they were nowhere to be found. And GM management let them get away with it too.

History again.

US Steel in the 70’s.

69 ConservatismNow!  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:27:40pm

re: #56 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why worry about what the government mandates when they will be controlling all aspects of our lives anyway?

Dear FurryOldGuyJeans,

As long as I’ve got my Xbox and my American Idol, they can dictate away.

signed,
The American People

70 subsailor68  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:27:42pm

re: #57 KenJen

Question. Can the U.A.W. strike against Ford? Could they run Ford out of business to benefit the company they now have a share in? How can they fairly represent workers at Ford and their own workers at GM? Am I missing something?

Hi KenJen! A question I’ve had as well. It seems an example of the principle of “unintended consequences”. There would appear to be a massive conflict of interest for UAW to call a strike at Ford while owning pieces of GM and Chrysler.

71 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:27:48pm

re: #67 Nevergiveup

It’s the UAW’s Payback for supporting The Won™.

72 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:28:19pm

re: #67 Nevergiveup

This whole government guided bankruptcy is being done to “protect” the union.

And it’s not going to work. This will only slow the inevitable.

73 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:28:44pm

re: #69 ConservatismNow!

Dear FurryOldGuyJeans,

As long as I’ve got my Xbox and my American Idol, they can dictate away.

signed,
The American People

Yeah, bread and circuses seems to be what most Americans want, screw liberty and freedom.

74 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:28:57pm

re: #72 Sharmuta

Unions delenda est.

75 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:29:02pm

Blue Horseshoe loves Andacot Steel.

76 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:29:08pm
77 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:29:09pm

Well, GM is circling the drain, as it has for months (years really), and none of this should come as a surprise. Bush and then Obama both poured billions into the automakers to stave off this very moment, and Obama pushed the envelope in that the government is now dictating the terms and trying to pick a winner out of all this.

The problem is that the market loses. Taxpayers lose. Unions win. Lawyers win.

In fact, it’s the lawyers who win by a long margin. There will be the inevitable shareholder and creditor suits as Obama and his Administration throw out years of precedence with junior creditors taking before senior creditors (throwing existing law on its head). Throw in the dealerships suddenly out of business, the bankruptcy of real estate companies and other related businesses suddenly holding dealer properties without income coming in, advertising companies and newspapers/Internet without ad sales from dealers, and things take on a new dimension of bad.

In fact, I suspect that this is lawyers all the way down …

78 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:29:28pm

re: #72 Sharmuta

And it’s not going to work. This will only slow the inevitable.

It will work just long enough to loot the corporation and shake down tax payers.

79 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:29:40pm

re: #72 Sharmuta

And it’s not going to work. This will only slow the inevitable.

Yeah, but another few years at the old feeding hole for the unions to pig out.

80 subsailor68  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:30:30pm

re: #62 FurryOldGuyJeans

I’ve lived and live in areas with substantial deer populations. I am more worried about other drivers, even if they are driving the Obamabiles.

Well, I’m with ya on the other drivers as well. But I’ve hit a couple of deer in my day, fortunately in a large vehicle, and they messed it up pretty badly.

And shoot, if ya get hit by an Obamamobile in your F-150, I’d guess the first reaction would be “Hmm, wonder what that was?”

:-)

81 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:31:22pm

re: #80 subsailor68

Mine would be “Damn Оба́маmobile scratched my paint again!”

82 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:31:36pm

re: #77 lawhawk


The problem is that the market loses. Taxpayers lose. Unions win. Lawyers win.

In fact, I suspect that this is lawyers all the way down …

Have we entered the Lawyocracy Era?

83 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:32:04pm

re: #79 Nevergiveup

Yeah, but another few years at the old feeding hole for the unions to pig out.

When has there really been a politician concerned for the future beyond the next election?

84 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:32:25pm

Clinton says formation of Palestinian state is in Israel’s best interest

[Link: www.ynetnews.com…]

Reminds me when my mother said shit like that? I didn’t believe it then, and I don’t believe it now.

85 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:32:33pm
86 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:32:59pm

re: #83 FurryOldGuyJeans

When has there really been a politician concerned for the future beyond the next election?

President Bush.

87 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:33:38pm
88 rightymouse  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:34:04pm
89 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:34:15pm

Don’t forget about Iowahawk’s “Pelosi” from Congressional Motors:

[Link: iowahawk.typepad.com…]

90 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:34:39pm

re: #87 taxfreekiller

Scythe

its the weapon of choice by real psycho’s

Don’t call Death a psycho, you might upset him…..

91 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:34:41pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

This might have a chilling affect on any privatization of Social Security. Do we really want the government making these sorts of decisions with our money?

I thought the gov’t already made the decisions on investing the SS money. Isn’t it invested in Treasuries? Or some sort of IOU promising Treasuries?

92 rightymouse  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:34:50pm

re: #86 Nevergiveup

President Bush.

And Reagan.

93 ConservatismNow!  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:34:59pm

re: #86 Nevergiveup

President Bush.

Lincoln. Reagan. Washington.

94 Eowyn2  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:35:00pm

My view
IF the numbers are correct:

Feds get 72.5%
UAW gets 17.5%

Workers get more Fed red tape (its gotta happen, you know it does)

Workers pay more to UAW for their wage/oversight committees

Workers pay more taxes with tax increases a natural outcome of the spending increases by the feds.

Car designs will be put up for bid

Car parts will be put up for bid

Will wages be put up for bid?

What happens when the UAW goes bust? Can the UAW go bust? Union guys have been losing hours and jobs since last summer (have in-laws.) Fewer payors means less income for UAW. What bennies will the UAW force the workers to give up to keep their jobs?

95 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:35:02pm

In order to improve gas efficiency, Obama will mandate that GM reduce car size.

96 sngnsgt  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:35:22pm

I haven’t driven a Generic Motors product since my 1972 Olds 442. GM went downhill from there. Damn I miss that gas guzzler, that car would pass everything but a gas station.

97 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:35:27pm

Wednesday, May 27, 2009
Poll: Obama car involvement gets mixed grade
Charlie Cain and Mark Hornbeck / Detroit News Lansing Bureau

Michiganians appear evenly divided in their belief that President Barack Obama’s heavy involvement in restructuring the auto industry is doing more harm than good, a Detroit News/WXYZ survey shows.

With Chrysler LLC in bankruptcy proceedings and General Motors Corp. apparently ready to follow suit, 42 percent of poll respondents say Obama’s role has hurt the domestic automakers while 39 percent say he’s been helpful. The poll’s margin of error is plus or minus 4 percentage points.

Under pressure from the federal government, GM will close 16 plants, the iconic Pontiac brand is disappearing and thousands of auto dealerships across the nation will shut their showrooms.

“The federal government is overstepping what it is supposed to be doing with private business,” said Katrina Hopkins, 48, a stay-at-home mom from Pontiac who participated in the survey conducted last week by EPIC-MRA in Lansing. “The government helped to create the auto crisis.”

98 formercorpsman  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:35:50pm

Another piece of this puzzle which keeps coming back to me, is how the price of fuel might have had an impact on this as well.

I am all for making a better mouse trap. Make a more fuel efficient car. Was I dreaming when reading the stories of how dealers could not keep up with the demand for the Prius?

That should prove the right there, the private sector can answer the call without being manipulated by government standards.

There is a fair amount of blame to go around. In the end, there is no way anyone will convince me, the push for a green economy does not have many politicians heavily invested in the background waiting to catch a windfall, moreover, insured at the taxpayer’s expense.

It is tantamount to insider trading as far as I’m concerned.

In my mind, if the government wants to shoulder the responsibility for companies too big too fail, then they should stop blocking efforts that have made us slaves to oil market for so long.

Domestic energy production alone, (building additional nuclear capability) would create an exponential effect on this problem from the get go.

99 PISSED  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:36:26pm

I have only two letters that come to mind B. and S.

This is so discusting … where did all that money go?
Do you think someone in the MSM or maybe that toll M. Moore will
will investigate… I think not.

100 FrogMarch  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:36:31pm

I want to see the business killing unions run GM. LOL.

101 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:36:35pm

re: #91 Leonidas Hoplite

I thought the gov’t already made the decisions on investing the SS money. Isn’t it invested in Treasuries? Or some sort of IOU promising Treasuries?

It’s all spent.

Madoff went to jail for doing with investors money what congress does with SS money.

102 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:36:46pm
103 PISSED  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:36:55pm

ooops disgusting..

104 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:36:56pm

This is embaressing, IMHO. Any other country on the planet supports the industries it has. Any other country but us. Instead of supporting our industrial infrastructure and doing what we can to make it better via tax breaks, education, etc, we decide instead to condemn it rather than adapt it. We choose to shoot ourselves in the foot, and we have since the early 1970s (maybe even the late 1960s).

We are told by the left that big industries are bad and evil. We are told by the right that the unions are bad and evil. We are told by the greens that we should just give it all up. We are told by Wall Street that there’s no point to producing anything here since it’s cheaper to do so elsewhere. Never mind that we can do better, we just take all their advice and get this crap sandwich.

Thanks a hell of a lot, coastal jerks, DC dipshits, and others, you have done a hell of a job of killing the Midwest, the heart of the US over the past 40 years. I hope you’re fucking happy now.

105 truth stick  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:37:09pm

re: #36 zombie

I agree. GM will lumber along, sick and unrecovering, for years, and will never regain a leadership position. I predict that eventually GM will become a small specialty company that will produce parts and military vehicles, but no consumer vehicles at all. Its stock will just go lower.

I have the same fear, I just hope who ever is in charge of the new company won’t take it down the suicide path. Since the Gov’t is in charge if they steer them down a R&D path of green cars, and push them away from the cars they can actually build well, they will end up right back where we are today. The only difference will be, we won’t be talking about Chapter 11, it will be 7 and the end of the road and some foreign makers will end up with all the names of our once great auto brands.

106 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:37:15pm

re: #85 jcm


The Chrysler Pelousy!

Ain’t that the ass end of a Trabant!

107 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:37:21pm

Gonzales has approved the 363 sale of Chrysler, thus screwing the Indiana pension funds. If anybody offers you paper that is “secured” laugh in their face and demand an additional 10% interest.

108 Eowyn2  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:37:40pm
109 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:37:49pm

re: #101 jcm

It’s all spent.

Madoff went to jail for doing with investors money what congress does with SS money.

Right. Makes we wish some politician in the dark past had the foresight to give me control of my own money. Imagine that.

110 Yashmak  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:37:51pm

re: #7 zombie

So, the U.S. government invested all our tax money in a company about to go bankrupt.

I feel sooooooo happy and confident that the governement is making my investment decisions for me. Tax me more and invest it all in more doomed and badly managed companies! Wheeeee!

Indeed. The whole auto industry bailout is turning out to be nothing more than a taxpayer funded pandering to the unions.

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Yes. The government will soon sell their shares at a profit. This isn’t a permanent nationalization of the company.

I think the chances of that occurring would be much better if the unions weren’t getting such a large share of the ownership of these companies.

111 Eowyn2  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:38:47pm

re: #95 zombie

In order to improve gas efficiency, Obama will mandate that GM reduce car size.

I see visions of those with the little baby carriages like they put on bicycles.

112 FrogMarch  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:38:55pm

re: #95 zombie

In order to improve gas efficiency, Obama will mandate that GM reduce car size.

I feel safe and green already.

113 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:39:12pm

re: #106 Macker

How many workers does it take to make a Trabant? Two. One to fold and one to paste.

114 Dahveed  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:39:14pm

re: #100 FrogMarch

I want to see the business killing unions run GM. LOL.

The unions did a great job of running United Airlines. It didn’t take too long for them to go into bankruptcy. And it only took forever for them to emerge from bankruptcy. But the unions learned their lesson in the airline industry eventually. The unions had to give up some of their salaries or else they would have to give up jobs.

115 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:39:24pm

re: #106 Macker

Ain’t that the ass end of a Trabant!

Ass end of a Trabant and front end is a ass……

116 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:39:45pm

re: #101 jcm

It’s all spent.

Madoff went to jail for doing with investors money what congress does with SS money.

For the history of SS there were more monies coming in than being returned to recipients. Any excess was used to fund other programs with IOUs given. Soon the IOUs will come due and more people get payments than there are payees into the system.

117 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:40:54pm

re: #112 FrogMarch
Given that 41% of car accidents are single car accidents, even downscaling other cars on the road will not make a difference.

118 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:41:37pm

re: #10 Killgore Trout

We were just discussion that an the previous thread. It looks like the government gets 72% of the company and the union get 17%.

I’m unlikely to buy a government/union vehicle.

119 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:41:56pm

re: #117 Shr_Nfr

Given that 41% of car accidents are single car accidents, even downscaling other cars on the road will not make a difference.

It might make a difference to the 59% that are multi-car accidents.

120 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:42:11pm

re: #118 debutaunt

I’m unlikely to buy a government/union vehicle.

You might not have a whole lot of choice.

121 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:43:02pm

Screw this whole car thing. Time to move on up to the jet-pack era!

Zooom! Vrooom! I’m lovin’ it already.

122 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:43:02pm

re: #118 debutaunt

I’m unlikely to buy a government/union vehicle.

Which is why Government Motors won’t turn a profit. Ever. Unless it adopts the same accounting standards that congress follows.

123 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:43:04pm

re: #109 Leonidas Hoplite

Right. Makes we wish some politician in the dark past had the foresight to give me control of my own money. Imagine that.

Even with the stock market down turn, if all my SS money was in the market I’d have way more than I expect from SS.


The government took my property, for my own good.
The government squandered my property, for my own good.
And the government expects me to willing fork over more, for my own good?

Yeah, right. Do I look that friggin’ stupid!
*Well 52% of us are*

124 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:43:06pm

An interesting side effect of this is that a company that is even partially owned by the government cannot compete in the bidding for a government contract. I expect more Murtha nephew no-bid contracts any moment now.

125 formercorpsman  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:43:19pm

re: #116 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes. Can’ wait for that finger pointing to go around. They know about the problem now, and refuse to take action on it.

My kids will be paying interest, on the interest.

126 Dahveed  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:43:34pm

re: #95 zombie

In order to improve gas efficiency, Obama will mandate that GM reduce car size.

Yet another reason the auto industry in the US will never come back. Government mandates kill business.

127 formercorpsman  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:43:49pm

re: #124 Shr_Nfr

Yes, you read my mind.

128 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:44:03pm

re: #119 CyanSnowHawk

It might make a difference to the 59% that are multi-car accidents.

Reducing the weight and going to composite materials will only increase the possibility the vehicles get totaled in a fender-bender.

129 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:44:28pm

re: #119 CyanSnowHawk

No argument. Ever see the impact video of the Smart with the mid size Mercedes? It gives a whole new meaning to “taking your car out for a spin.”

130 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:44:30pm
131 aggieann  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:44:33pm

Y’all should read this by Stephen Green from Pajamas Media.

I Have Seen the Future of the Automobile — and It Sucks: It’s a bleak future for car lovers for whom size does matter.

[Link: pajamasmedia.com…]

132 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:44:34pm

re: #121 zombie

Screw this whole car thing. Time to move on up to the jet-pack era!

Zooom! Vrooom! I’m lovin’ it already.

Nice idea, but useless in rain and snow.

133 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:44:40pm

re: #117 Shr_Nfr

Given that 41% of car accidents are single car accidents, even downscaling other cars on the road will not make a difference.

A cement wall is no more kind to a little aluminum box than is a Hummer’s bumper. Either way: scrunch.

134 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:44:53pm

re: #121 zombie

Screw this whole car thing. Time to move on up to the jet-pack era!

Zooom! Vrooom! I’m lovin’ it already.

I hope your commute is less than 30 seconds……

;-P

135 Truck Monkey  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:45:19pm

re: #125 formercorpsman

Yes. Can’ wait for that finger pointing to go around. They know about the problem now, and refuse to take action on it.

My kids will be paying interest, on the interest.

I’m telling my kids to learn Chinese.

136 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:45:34pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

I think it was to give them enough time to control the process and restructure instead of just imploding and disappearing.

They don’t own the company any more. They drove it into the ground, accepted a bailout and now bankruptcy. New and improved GM cars? Sure.

137 subsailor68  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:45:35pm

re: #116 FurryOldGuyJeans

For the history of SS there were more monies coming in than being returned to recipients. Any excess was used to fund other programs with IOUs given. Soon the IOUs will come due and more people get payments than there are payees into the system.

Yep, that’s exactly right. Here’s the answer to a question on that, from the SSA’s own site:

Social Security Administration

How are the trust funds invested?

By law, income to the trust funds must be invested, on a daily basis, in securities guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the Federal government. All securities held by the trust funds are “special issues” of the United States Treasury. Such securities are available only to the trust funds.

In the past, the trust funds have held marketable Treasury securities, which are available to the general public. Unlike marketable securities, special issues can be redeemed at any time at face value. Marketable securities are subject to the forces of the open market and may suffer a loss, or enjoy a gain, if sold before maturity. Investment in special issues gives the trust funds the same flexibility as holding cash.

No matter how they want to “blow smoke”, the reality is that the money has been “borrowed” and secured by either “special securities” or “Treasury securities”. In other words, by IOU’s from Treasury.

And to pay it back? Hm, would need to increase tax revenues, borrow money, or print dollars.

138 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:45:36pm

re: #126 Dahveed

But all Barney Frank ever does is Man Dates. Now take my congresscritter, please!

139 Bill Dalasio  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:45:59pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Yes. The government will soon sell their shares at a profit. This isn’t a permanent nationalization of the company.

Sure. The entire history of nationalizations (even the so-called temporary ones) is a story of self-perpetuating inefficiency and subsidization. But, sure, this time it will be different.

/do I even need to?

140 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:46:24pm

re: #117 Shr_Nfr

Given that 41% of car accidents are single car accidents, even downscaling other cars on the road will not make a difference.

If correct (linky?), if correct that means 59% are two or more car accidents. Downscaling of cars will certainly make a difference, in lives lost.

141 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:46:43pm

The fact that people are talking about not buying another Chrysler or GM because they are government owned showed just how flawed this whole process had become. The brands may be irreparably damaged because of this interference, a situation that could have been avoided entirely by allowing them to enter bankruptcy directly. Chrysler has been in this position before, and recovered after the loan guarantees (different from direct cash infusion here). They put out a better product, and invented the minivan and cashed in on the SUV craze.

GM has not, although it has been killing off brands for a while now (remember your Oldsmobile? I do, as my folks had a couple of Delta 88 royale brohams).

I personally wouldn’t touch another GM car and I soured on Chrysler after watching my folks try an Eagle Premier (worst.car.ever!) Never went with Ford, but when the time comes, I might give ‘em a look, but that could be years from now as I’ve got a Toyota Corolla and Honda Accord with relatively low miles.

142 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:46:48pm

re: #133 zombie

Yep. I am just saying that folks who think that downsizing the whole fleet will not mean increased fatalities are blowing smoke.

143 formercorpsman  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:47:05pm

re: #135 Truck Monkey

Yeah. Without a single shot fired.

144 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:47:31pm

re: #125 formercorpsman

Yes. Can’ wait for that finger pointing to go around. They know about the problem now, and refuse to take action on it.

My kids will be paying interest, on the interest.

The finger pointing started in earnest when Bush tried to begin a partial privatization setup, then died down when he backed off. Government creates the problem and then blames US for the mess when it gets all too stinky.

145 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:47:55pm
146 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:48:16pm

re: #30 zombie

A company that badly managed might need to implode and disappear. Sure, doing so would give a big hit to our economy, but after they go belly up, we can start to recover economically, leaner and more efficient.

This way, we’ve just shackled ourselves to a ponderous, sick and gangrenous patient. GM will drag down our national economy for years to come. Better to have made a clean break and get the pain over with.

YES!

147 FrogMarch  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:48:19pm

re: #114 Dahveed

The unions did a great job of running United Airlines. It didn’t take too long for them to go into bankruptcy. And it only took forever for them to emerge from bankruptcy. But the unions learned their lesson in the airline industry eventually. The unions had to give up some of their salaries or else they would have to give up jobs.

Funny how the unions are always the last to give up anything. The company is going down the toilet and the unions refuse to budge.
(But - Management isn’t off the hook.) But, the ridiculous union work rules (including paying your layed-off employees full salary and benefits to sit in a room all day) are what drive up costs. American auto companies cannot make a profit. Unions are the last to give into pay cuts and benefit cuts. That’s why I want to see the UAW actually run and manage GM. the unions are not set up to produce, they are set up to take take take. unions mirror the modern democrat party, which is why they are in bed together.

148 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:48:27pm

re: #128 FurryOldGuyJeans

Reducing the weight and going to composite materials will only increase the possibility the vehicles get totaled in a fender-bender.

That’s one of the differences I was talking about.

Does it bother anybody else that even now, a new car involved in a 5MPH collision will often require multi-thousand dollar repair costs?

149 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:48:42pm

re: #125 formercorpsman

Yes. Can’ wait for that finger pointing to go around. They know about the problem now, and refuse to take action on it.

My kids will be paying interest, on the interest.

I expect the gov’t to default or devalue. It won’t be good and our kids will pay a horrible price.

150 sngnsgt  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:48:54pm
151 Truck Monkey  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:49:02pm

re: #140 unrealizedviewpoint

If correct (linky?), if correct that means 59% are two or more car accidents. Downscaling of cars will certainly make a difference, in lives lost.

Yeah, but think about this. Two people walking that bump into each other rarely get hurt and never die. Let’s just do away with cars. They kill just like loaded guns do!
//////

152 Yashmak  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:49:08pm

re: #95 zombie

In order to improve gas efficiency, Obama will mandate that GM reduce car size.

That, I have no problem with (the reduction in average car size…I don’t care much for Obama mandating it). I look forward to a day when it’s not bumper to bumper 12mpg SUV’s or king-cab pickup trucks on the road anymore, with only one person on board.

153 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:49:18pm

re: #137 subsailor68

Yep, that’s exactly right. Here’s the answer to a question on that, from the SSA’s own site:

Social Security Administration

How are the trust funds invested?

By law, income to the trust funds must be invested, on a daily basis, in securities guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the Federal government. All securities held by the trust funds are “special issues” of the United States Treasury. Such securities are available only to the trust funds.

In the past, the trust funds have held marketable Treasury securities, which are available to the general public. Unlike marketable securities, special issues can be redeemed at any time at face value. Marketable securities are subject to the forces of the open market and may suffer a loss, or enjoy a gain, if sold before maturity. Investment in special issues gives the trust funds the same flexibility as holding cash.

No matter how they want to “blow smoke”, the reality is that the money has been “borrowed” and secured by either “special securities” or “Treasury securities”. In other words, by IOU’s from Treasury.

And to pay it back? Hm, would need to increase tax revenues, borrow money, or print dollars.

Any private company using self-issued securities to borrow money from itself would be prosecuted for fraud sooner than last Sunday.

154 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:49:26pm

I’ve been a Chevrolet maniac since the day I was born. It runs in my blood, you might say. But given the transition to Government Motors and the new federal mandate for “green” cars, I’m going to have to look elsewhere for my automotive needs. I drive larger vehicles for a variety of reasons:
1) I’m a larger guy. I won’t fit in a Mini Cooper, for sure.
2) I do lots of moving and hauling of bulky stuff. I’m a do-it-yourselfer and an engineer. Deal.
3) I got involved in a serious accident four years ago that totaled my beloved 1991 Chevrolet. Getting hit that hard puts a new perspective on just how much vehicle size does matter when it comes to surviving getting hit by a dump truck.
I think it’s safe to say that the government does NOT look favorably on me right now.

155 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:50:52pm
156 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:51:01pm

re: #154 thedopefishlives

You are only worth something to government when you vote and pay your taxes. Any other time you are a burden.

157 Irenicum  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:51:21pm

OT/ Hey Charles, I thought you might be interested in this link from the NY Times about a Swiss rapper who is speaking out against the far right in Switzerland. Interesting stuff!
Now, back to work! (shsssh!)

158 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:51:22pm

Of the three American auto manufacturers, Ford is the only one to have eschewed Federal bailout money, instead, preferring to embrace a solution in keeping with traditional capitalist business practices; relying on stockholders and bondholders rather than the American taxpayer.

At the same time, GM and Chrysler have sold their souls and prostrated themselves before the Federal Government and the Bush/Obama administrations in an effort to secure their future at an immense cost to the American taxpayer which some say may reach as high as $130 Billion, but no one really knows what the final tally will be.

Chrysler, who, from what I could find, has received “only” $7 Billion in Federal bailout money, so what becomes of that money if, and when Chrysler is owned by its Union, Canada and Fiat? “Under the new scenario, the U.S. Treasury would recover 3 to 5 percent of its investment, compared with 3 to 6 percent in Capstone’s previous analysis.” Capstone Advisory Group is Chrysler’s financial advisory firm.

So let’s get back to Ford. All three of these companies competed in the same market, played by the same rules and were represented by the same union. At least at the moment, Ford is surviving, while GM and Chrysler are essentially corpses; either being propped up by billions of taxpayer dollars or their parts being sold to foreign competitors.

How is this fair to Ford? GM is being assisted in terms of tens of billions of dollars of taxpayer money, and has plans on forgiving that debt in the hope that they can emerge from bankruptcy later this year. Were this a traditional bankruptcy, investors would have agreed to take a share of losses, but when the investor is the Federal government, forgiving debt owed to the American people, this presents a whole new pernicious and disturbing aura of government control in the private sector. Certainly, the government will expect “some influence” within these quasi-state-owned auto companies, will it not? President Obama has already virtually fired the CEO at GM.

None of this bodes well for the American automobile industry, or the state of capitalism in the United States as a whole. Ford may well prosper in the long run, given the government’s utter incompetence in dealing with anything it touches, aside from those tasks it is constitutionally mandated to perform. I have serious doubts that a quasi-state-run automobile company will be anything but a taxpayer money pit, producing cars nobody wants at prices nobody wants to pay.

In the interim, Ford plays by one set of rules while GM and Chrysler play by another. Are Ford”s debts being forgiven as are GM’s? Are Ford’s creditors willing to settle for 3 to 5 percent of their investment as is Chrysler’s government investor?

Ford stood strong and did not invite the government onto its house knowing, I believe, that there would be a price to be paid; the greatest of which being their autonomy. For that, I applaud them and, should I be in the market for a car, I will buy a Ford. I will shun GM and Chrysler like the plague they have become.

All of this should be a cautionary tale about the fragility of the capitalist system, the balance between it and the government, and the envious eyes that that some in the government cast upon corporations in times such as these, under the guise of “help”. A “free market economy” is just that, and corporations should be wary of the tentacles involved in “government bailouts”.

Capitalism is what has made this nation the strongest and richest nation in the history of mankind and we should not abandon it during this time of contraction. To do so is a betrayal of American principles and hastens our journey, in the words of Hayek, down the “Road to Serfdom”.

159 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:52:16pm

re: #155 taxfreekiller

It being Texas sent Bush, it being Texas has not gone Democrat in a long time, what are the chances the Arlington Tx. GM plant is deceased now.
like a 99.9%? chance for change of hope?

Kinda like the Republican Chrysler dealers? Nah, I’m sure it wasn’t not a coincidence…

160 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:52:55pm

re: #148 CyanSnowHawk

That’s one of the differences I was talking about.

Does it bother anybody else that even now, a new car involved in a 5MPH collision will often require multi-thousand dollar repair costs?

You are thinking sensibly, not governmentally.

161 formercorpsman  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:53:42pm

re: #144 FurryOldGuyJeans

Exactly. My wife and I have a business. We have employees. I also hold down my own job, and she just started turning a regular paycheck after 3 years. We put any profit back into the company.

I have had to use my own paycheck to cover payroll at times.

More frustrating? The fact that federal employees get FERS. Other State governments opted to retire in Index funds.

In addition to paying your employee say $20.00 an hour, you also pay an additional 6.2% & 6.2% again.

They could have solved this problem by allowing some privatization with the own employees portions. Hell, force them to buy EE bonds. It could have been done.

162 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:54:30pm

re: #140 unrealizedviewpoint

I cannot find the link at the moment. Another interesting side issue on fatalities in single car accidents is that a fair number of them may be suicides. If I run across the link I will post it.

163 Former Belgian  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:54:56pm

re: #147 FrogMarch

Funny how the unions are always the last to give up anything. The company is going down the toilet and the unions refuse to budge.
(But - Management isn’t off the hook.) But, the ridiculous union work rules (including paying your layed-off employees full salary and benefits to sit in a room all day) are what drive up costs. American auto companies cannot make a profit. Unions are the last to give into pay cuts and benefit cuts. That’s why I want to see the UAW actually run and manage GM. the unions are not set up to produce, they are set up to take take take. unions mirror the modern democrat party, which is why they are in bed together.

This is half of what drove Belgium’s national airline into bankruptcy: unions being out of touch with reality. (This argument was made to me by, to my astonishment, a Belgian trade union activist.) The other half was Swissair’s grandiose plans after the takeover followed by asset-stripping when Swissair tried t stave off its own bankruptcy. (In an astonishing twist, Swissair was eventually bought out by its own regional subsidiary Crossair, and rebranded itself successfully as Swiss. They are now half of Lufthansa-Swiss.)

164 redc1c4  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:55:39pm

typical Chicago deal: great big stick, little tiny carrot.

“do what i say or else…”

i’m so glad i don’t have any children.

165 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:56:22pm

This whole bankruptcy situation is depressing.

166 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:56:25pm

re: #161 formercorpsman

The thing is that most politicians believes the only solution to problems is more government, not less. Privatization is taking money away from politicians who need it to buy votes.

167 FrogMarch  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:56:57pm

re: #158 MacDuff

ding!

I have serious doubts that a quasi-state-run automobile company will be anything but a taxpayer money pit, producing cars nobody wants at prices nobody wants to pay…

168 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:58:32pm

re: #157 Irenicum

OT/ Hey Charles, I thought you might be interested in this link from the NY Times about a Swiss rapper who is speaking out against the far right in Switzerland. Interesting stuff!
Now, back to work! (shsssh!)

Do we really want to ally ourselves with white nationalists Rap artists in the fight against the Islamists white nationalists?
//////Sounds vaguely familiar

169 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:58:32pm

re: #158 MacDuff

I have yet to see the US Postal Service offer rebates to stimulate business.

170 Dahveed  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:58:48pm

re: #147 FrogMarch

And unions couldn’t care less about the employees either. To the heads of the unions it’s all a game. They do their best to stick it to management. The union heads make a lot of money, so if the company fails, they got theirs.

171 redc1c4  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:59:09pm

re: #152 Yashmak

That, I have no problem with (the reduction in average car size…I don’t care much for Obama mandating it). I look forward to a day when it’s not bumper to bumper 12mpg SUV’s or king-cab pickup trucks on the road anymore, with only one person on board.

that’s just stupid….. if people want to own them, and can afford to, who are you say they can’t?

172 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:59:48pm

If I ever decided to go into bankruptcy would I get such favorable options? Yeah, I know. Just day dreaming. Sigh

173 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:59:48pm

re: #7 zombie

So, the U.S. government invested all our tax money in a company about to go bankrupt.

I feel sooooooo happy and confident that the governement is making my investment decisions for me. Tax me more and invest it all in more doomed and badly managed companies! Wheeeee!

A government investment policy is supposed to be about picking winners and avoiding losers. Thus far we seem to be 0 for 2.

174 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:59:57pm

re: #152 Yashmak

So you like being collectivized?

175 Vicious Babushka  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:00:40pm

re: #1 Orangutan

magically delicious

I live in SE Michigan and I have worked in the auto industry for 20 years. I don’t know what you think is so much fun.

176 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:02:06pm

re: #173 Son of the Black Dog

A government investment policy is supposed to be about picking winners and avoiding losers. Thus far we seem to be 0 for 2.

0 for 3, if you count The 0 who got elected.

177 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:02:27pm

re: #152 Yashmak

That, I have no problem with (the reduction in average car size…I don’t care much for Obama mandating it). I look forward to a day when it’s not bumper to bumper 12mpg SUV’s or king-cab pickup trucks on the road anymore, with only one person on board.

Those SUVs were a creation of the CAFE rules in the first place - by not including them in the original mileage requirements, they became the place where manufacturers turned when station wagons went extinct under the CAFE rules.

You want to see SUVs disappear? Find people a vehicle that lets families lug their kids around with their strollers, required car seats, and do so when going to the grocery store with room to spare and the horsepower needed to merge onto highways safely.

That’s the conundrum. Sure, Smart cars sound like a great idea, but they aren’t for folks with kids - and only one car. You need a second larger car to do the kids thing. And forget about carrying stuff as well.

178 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:02:44pm

re: #160 FurryOldGuyJeans

You are thinking sensibly, not governmentally.

Ah, that was where my premise was incorrect. I was wondering at the contradictions I was seeing.

179 FrogMarch  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:02:57pm

re: #170 Dahveed

And unions couldn’t care less about the employees either. To the heads of the unions it’s all a game. They do their best to stick it to management. The union heads make a lot of money, so if the company fails, they got theirs.

Parasites.
They leech off the worker through union dues and then they eventually kill the host.
I don’t need no stinking union to represent my interests.

180 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:03:11pm

re: #128 FurryOldGuyJeans

Reducing the weight and going to composite materials will only increase the possibility the vehicles get totaled in a fender-bender.

Have we made a huge circle and are now back to the unsafe VW bug?

181 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:03:53pm

re: #177 lawhawk

Those SUVs were a creation of the CAFE rules in the first place - by not including them in the original mileage requirements, they became the place where manufacturers turned when station wagons went extinct under the CAFE rules.

You want to see SUVs disappear? Find people a vehicle that lets families lug their kids around with their strollers, required car seats, and do so when going to the grocery store with room to spare and the horsepower needed to merge onto highways safely.

That’s the conundrum. Sure, Smart cars sound like a great idea, but they aren’t for folks with kids - and only one car. You need a second larger car to do the kids thing. And forget about carrying stuff as well.

Preach on! Got three apes in my family, all 5 and under, and it’s all we can do to fit them and groceries into a minivan.

182 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:04:01pm

re: #180 debutaunt

Have we made a huge circle and are now back to the unsafe VW bug?

Hey, don’t diss the Hitler car! ;)

183 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:04:23pm

re: #180 debutaunt

Have we made a huge circle and are now back to the unsafe VW bug?

Yeah, but with worse engineering, and higher price tag. Oh, and on our nickel.

184 sngnsgt  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:04:42pm

re: #177 lawhawk

Don’t worry about it, by then Dems will pass a law only allowing one child per family.

185 formercorpsman  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:05:11pm

re: #177 lawhawk

You know the answer that will follow that.

186 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:05:36pm

re: #184 sngnsgt

Don’t worry about it, by then Dems will pass a law only allowing one child per family.

Do we get the Sex Park like the Chinese had before it was torn down unopened?

187 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:05:43pm

re: #182 FurryOldGuyJeans

Hey, don’t diss the Hitler car! ;)

Howsabout the Kabinenroller, the original Smart car?

Messerchmitt made amazing aircraft, and really weird cars.

188 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:06:21pm

re: #169 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have yet to see the US Postal Service offer rebates to stimulate business.

I’ve seen them do nothing but continually raise their rates and talk about reduction in services. They’re a good window into the world of state-run corporations.

189 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:07:12pm

re: #186 FurryOldGuyJeans

Do we get the Sex Park like the Chinese had before it was torn down unopened?

When I heard about that deal, I was staggered. Chinese are some of the most socially and sexually conservative people in the world; how ANYBODY thought that was gonna fly is more than I can figure out.

190 sngnsgt  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:07:38pm

re: #186 FurryOldGuyJeans

Do we get the Sex Park like the Chinese had before it was torn down unopened?

Of course, free love for everyone!

191 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:08:20pm

Both Chrysler and GM will eventually fail, it is just a matter of how fast. Probably Ford will also. The Federal Government, in the form of the Pension Benefit Guarantee Board, will step in to make the UAW retirees whole. Everybody else: stockholders, bondholders, and taxpayers will get stiffed.

192 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:08:45pm

re: #189 Guanxi88

When I heard about that deal, I was staggered. Chinese are some of the most socially and sexually conservative people in the world; how ANYBODY thought that was gonna fly is more than I can figure out.

It was privately funded and going to have been privately run. The Chinese are becoming more Capitalist as we go Socialist.

193 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:09:16pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Yeah, I’d guess the new company won’t last more than ten or twenty years.

Not that long.

194 sngnsgt  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:09:17pm

re: #188 MacDuff

I’ve seen them do nothing but continually raise their rates and talk about reduction in services. They’re a good window into the world of state-run corporations.

Is the Postal Service still driving LLV’s? (Long life vehicles) Those things are gas hogs.

195 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:09:52pm

re: #186 FurryOldGuyJeans

Do we get the Sex Park like the Chinese had before it was torn down unopened?

That was one of the funniest stories I’ve seen in a long time. I couldn’t help but wonder if they would have a big paper banner just inside the entrance every morning so the first guest through would get to ‘break the hymen.’

196 Truth Stick  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:09:58pm
Have we made a huge circle and are now back to the unsafe VW bug?

better those, than this

197 Born Again Republican  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:10:09pm

re: #154 thedopefishlives

I’ve been a Chevrolet maniac since the day I was born. It runs in my blood, you might say. But given the transition to Government Motors and the new federal mandate for “green” cars, I’m going to have to look elsewhere for my automotive needs. I drive larger vehicles for a variety of reasons:
1) I’m a larger guy. I won’t fit in a Mini Cooper, for sure.
2) I do lots of moving and hauling of bulky stuff. I’m a do-it-yourselfer and an engineer. Deal.
3) I got involved in a serious accident four years ago that totaled my beloved 1991 Chevrolet. Getting hit that hard puts a new perspective on just how much vehicle size does matter when it comes to surviving getting hit by a dump truck.
I think it’s safe to say that the government does NOT look favorably on me right now.

Two of your reasons apply to me as well. Although I had a car hit me head-on in the driver’s door of my Vega. There was a steel beam in that door that saved my life. Not a scratch on me.

Surely they will keep safety a top priority. I certainly don’t want to be hurtin’ anyone in my SUV.

198 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:10:20pm

re: #177 lawhawk

Those SUVs were a creation of the CAFE rules in the first place - by not including them in the original mileage requirements, they became the place where manufacturers turned when station wagons went extinct under the CAFE rules.

You want to see SUVs disappear? Find people a vehicle that lets families lug their kids around with their strollers, required car seats, and do so when going to the grocery store with room to spare and the horsepower needed to merge onto highways safely.

That’s the conundrum. Sure, Smart cars sound like a great idea, but they aren’t for folks with kids - and only one car. You need a second larger car to do the kids thing. And forget about carrying stuff as well.

I have a full sized van, 4 kids mom and dad. I bought the most efficient van possible, it’s the Dodge Sprinter by Mercedes. The 2.5L CDI engine is efficient and very clean. No matter under CA type emission standards that engine is too dirty, never mind it meets European clean air standards.

I’m a home DYI guy. Second vehicle is a full size pickup. With a compact PU I’d be making more trips.

The ijits in DC with their chauffeurs, nannies and other to do all the mundane stuff for them have no clue has to how middle America lives and what they need.

199 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:10:28pm

re: #192 FurryOldGuyJeans

It was privately funded and going to have been privately run. The Chinese are becoming more Capitalist as we go Socialist.

Indeed. Perhaps why this will be China’s century?

200 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:10:28pm

re: #177 lawhawk

Well, yeah, but if you have been following the left wing ( democrats in general ) kids and large families are not good for the environment and the earth. So it’s out with kids and families and in with the new brave world.

201 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:11:02pm

re: #192 FurryOldGuyJeans

It was privately funded and going to have been privately run. The Chinese are becoming more Capitalist as we go Socialist.

Well, private dollars (or Yuan, in this case) don’t mean a whole hell of a lot when there is no distinction between state and society, as in China. The investors should have known that the authorities (the guys in the weird uniforms, mostly) would NEVER stand for that kind of stuff. The Party is communist, true, and is embracing a sort of authoritarian capitalist model, but they would never allow social decay and corruption to be so visible. Private money or not, they’d have shut it down and/or broken heads.

202 Mournie  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:12:34pm

This was nothing more than a union payoff for services rendered (IE thanks for the votes). The only ones who benefited were the union bosses. Their greed killed the industry, politicians greed will kill the republic.

203 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:12:41pm

re: #177 lawhawk

Those SUVs were a creation of the CAFE rules in the first place - by not including them in the original mileage requirements, they became the place where manufacturers turned when station wagons went extinct under the CAFE rules.

You want to see SUVs disappear? Find people a vehicle that lets families lug their kids around with their strollers, required car seats, and do so when going to the grocery store with room to spare and the horsepower needed to merge onto highways safely.

That’s the conundrum. Sure, Smart cars sound like a great idea, but they aren’t for folks with kids - and only one car. You need a second larger car to do the kids thing. And forget about carrying stuff as well.

Shhhhh. Don’t say that too loudly, they might brand you a “breeder”, thus an inherent enemy of Gaea and all things green./s

204 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:13:12pm

re: #199 Leonidas Hoplite

Indeed. Perhaps why this will be China’s century?

Eh, the Chinese are getting older faster than they’re getting richer. That whole population control thing has worked a little too well, and more and more folk in their 30’s aren’t marrying or having kids. This spells the end for them, longterm; the Party is concerned about it.

205 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:13:42pm

re: #57 KenJen

Question. Can the U.A.W. strike against Ford? Could they run Ford out of business to benefit the company they now have a share in? How can they fairly represent workers at Ford and their own workers at GM? Am I missing something?

Nope, you’re right on target. The UAW and BHO cannot afford to let Ford survive.

206 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:14:01pm

The “encentive” sounds like intimidation,bribery,or
colusion ta me!
Don’t make a fuss about us RIPPING YOU OFF and we might give a bone!
Fu^&ers!

207 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:14:17pm

re: #198 jcm

I have a full sized van, 4 kids mom and dad. I bought the most efficient van possible, it’s the Dodge Sprinter by Mercedes. The 2.5L CDI engine is efficient and very clean. No matter under CA type emission standards that engine is too dirty, never mind it meets European clean air standards.

I’m a home DYI guy. Second vehicle is a full size pickup. With a compact PU I’d be making more trips.

The ijits in DC with their chauffeurs, nannies and other to do all the mundane stuff for them have no clue has to how middle America lives and what they need.

Don’t be so worried jcm. Congress will provide millions in funding to do a study and issue a report.

208 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:15:29pm

re: #205 Son of the Black Dog

Yet Fords in better shape than all of them ,right?

209 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:16:37pm

re: #59 Dahveed

I really mean that management let the union get away with crazy collective bargaining provisions over the years. They had some kind of room for idle workers to sit in and not work, but get paid however much of their salary. Perhaps someone knows more about it than I do, but there were huge amounts that management gave to the union workers for almost anything.

The UAW policy of singling out one automaker to strike, while leaving the other two in production, guaranteed that the selected automaker would cave pretty quickly, as it saw all the sales going to its competitors.

210 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:17:04pm

re: #208 reloadingisnotahobby

Yet Fords in better shape than all of them ,right?

I dunno about Ford being in better shape; seems they’re in trouble to me. Got FedGov and the UAW now teamed up against ‘em. Bad place to be.

211 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:17:27pm

re: #152 Yashmak

That, I have no problem with (the reduction in average car size…I don’t care much for Obama mandating it). I look forward to a day when it’s not bumper to bumper 12mpg SUV’s or king-cab pickup trucks on the road anymore, with only one person on board.

Do you also look forward to the GM car plants being shut down and moved offshore to the cheap labour markets of China and India? And then the little Asian-built GM shitboxes will be shipped right back to the US and sold to the samr poor consumers who are funding the sellout.
Because that is what is likely going to happen unless Obama nationalizes and erects protectionist trade barriers.
This is a complete and utter disaster.

212 jcm  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:17:33pm

re: #207 unrealizedviewpoint

Don’t be so worried jcm. Congress will provide millions in funding to do a study and issue a report.

I want a luxury one of these…….

;-P

213 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:17:43pm

re: #198 jcm

I have a full sized van, 4 kids mom and dad. I bought the most efficient van possible, it’s the Dodge Sprinter by Mercedes. The 2.5L CDI engine is efficient and very clean. No matter under CA type emission standards that engine is too dirty, never mind it meets European clean air standards.

I’m a home DYI guy. Second vehicle is a full size pickup. With a compact PU I’d be making more trips.

The ijits in DC with their chauffeurs, nannies and other to do all the mundane stuff for them have no clue has to how middle America lives and what they need.

I have a Honda Odyssey van. It only gets about 20 mpg mixed, but I needed something that seated seven (now five), or I would have been driving two cars.

Loaded vs. a loaded “Smart Car”, I get the SAME fuel efficiency in person-miles per gallon.

214 1SG(ret)  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:17:59pm

re: #171 redc1c4
And it wouldn’t be so crowded if all those pesky little vehicles would get out of our way.

/slightly……I love my/son’s Truck

215 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:18:18pm

re: #207 unrealizedviewpoint

Don’t be so worried jcm. Congress will provide millions in funding to do a study and issue a report.


……and by the time the results are released, Mom and Dad will no longer be with us and you’ll be too damned old to care.

216 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:18:23pm

re: #192 FurryOldGuyJeans

It was privately funded and going to have been privately run. The Chinese are becoming more Capitalist as we go Socialist.

Then they will regulate their capitalism out of existence as well. When government control of the media slacks off enough, it won’t take too many of those melamine in the milk stories to have the population clamoring for protection from the big bad industrialists.

Is it just me, or does China’s industry look surprisingly like turn of the 20th Century American industry?

217 Truth Stick  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:18:42pm
I’ve seen them do nothing but continually raise their rates and talk about reduction in services. They’re a good window into the world of state-run corporations.

I think is about time we say, go ahead and cut service, when they raise rates high enough all the packages will go via UPS or FedEx, people who can actually run a delivery service. As far as I am concerned I don’t care if they cut my postal service down to 1 day a month. I pay and receive most of my bills online. 99% of what I get in my mailbox goes in the trash can or into the fireplace if it has anything I regard as important on it. I have actually found that I only receive 3 pieces of mail per month that I need.

218 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:18:54pm

re: #204 Guanxi88

Eh, the Chinese are getting older faster than they’re getting richer. That whole population control thing has worked a little too well, and more and more folk in their 30’s aren’t marrying or having kids. This spells the end for them, longterm; the Party is concerned about it.

Perhaps, but the US at the end of the 19th Century wasn’t a world power yet either, and look what happened inside one and a half generations.

True the population control policy has worked against them, especially with so many more boys than girls, but those spare boys can populate divisions and it probably wouldn’t take long for the demographics to improve if they got rid of the one-child policy.

219 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:18:58pm

re: #212 jcm

As long as like desert tan…….Cool!
I just want A/C and a Mini gun!

220 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:19:37pm

re: #216 CyanSnowHawk

Is it just me, or does China’s industry look surprisingly like turn of the 20th Century American industry?

Yep, they’ve gone from agrarian to industrial, and well on their way to post-industrial, in barely two generations.

221 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:19:38pm

re: #217 Truth Stick

I think is about time we say, go ahead and cut service, when they raise rates high enough all the packages will go via UPS or FedEx, people who can actually run a delivery service. As far as I am concerned I don’t care if they cut my postal service down to 1 day a month. I pay and receive most of my bills online. 99% of what I get in my mailbox goes in the trash can or into the fireplace if it has anything I regard as important on it. I have actually found that I only receive 3 pieces of mail per month that I need.

But if they cut the mail how will the IRS ever reach you?

222 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:19:41pm
223 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:20:28pm

re: #201 Guanxi88

Within the constraints of the system that the idea of the park was even allowed to be built was astonishing.

224 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:20:34pm

re: #218 Leonidas Hoplite

Perhaps, but the US at the end of the 19th Century wasn’t a world power yet either, and look what happened inside one and a half generations.

True the population control policy has worked against them, especially with so many more boys than girls, but those spare boys can populate divisions and it probably wouldn’t take long for the demographics to improve if they got rid of the one-child policy.

Problem is, the joke now is “Have one child, PLEASE!” because so many younger Chinese have decided to swap the family life in favor of the career.

225 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:20:56pm

re: #152 Yashmak

That, I have no problem with (the reduction in average car size…I don’t care much for Obama mandating it). I look forward to a day when it’s not bumper to bumper 12mpg SUV’s or king-cab pickup trucks on the road anymore, with only one person on board.

So you’re going to buy me a “commuter car”, or maybe a motorcycle?

How utterly generous of you.

226 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:21:55pm

re: #224 Guanxi88

Problem is, the joke now is “Have one child, PLEASE!” because so many younger Chinese have decided to swap the family life in favor of the career.

Heh. Maybe if they promise each couple some of our Treasuries they’ll be incentivized…

227 poteen  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:22:30pm

The biggest of the “Big 4” has been the UAW for years. My thought is to let them have the companies and either make it work or go bankrupt also.
I have a few questions though.
1. I’ve been trying to identify who the “GM bondholders”are. Are they bankers trying to get more bailout money, suppliers, private investors or what mix? Who’s investments are being protected?

2. GM and Chrysler have massive assets, “”toxic” or overleveraged as they are. Why aren’t there groups of investors lining up with offers to buy those assets at their own bailout price. The American Way. I realize they may have to wait for BK but I haven’t heard of any other interest. Is it BECAUSE the gov’t is interfering.

228 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:22:50pm

re: #226 Leonidas Hoplite

Heh. Maybe if they promise each couple some of our Treasuries they’ll be incentivized…

I dunno; the thought of owning Treasuries doesn’t do much for my “urge to merge”; they may see it differently, of course…..

229 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:22:50pm

re: #224 Guanxi88

Problem is, the joke now is “Have one child, PLEASE!” because so many younger Chinese have decided to swap the family life in favor of the career.

Sounds a lot like Russia, breeding is the new status symbol.

230 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:23:12pm

re: #217 Truth Stick

I think is about time we say, go ahead and cut service, when they raise rates high enough all the packages will go via UPS or FedEx, people who can actually run a delivery service. As far as I am concerned I don’t care if they cut my postal service down to 1 day a month. I pay and receive most of my bills online. 99% of what I get in my mailbox goes in the trash can or into the fireplace if it has anything I regard as important on it. I have actually found that I only receive 3 pieces of mail per month that I need.

I couldn’t agree more. For me, the mailman is just a reason for the dog to bark when he hears the mailbox. The last time I actually addressed an envelope and put a stamp on it, I remarked to myself “oh, how quaint”.

231 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:23:13pm

re: #223 FurryOldGuyJeans

Within the constraints of the system that the idea of the park was even allowed to be built was astonishing.

Yep, that was a mind-bender.

232 Truth Stick  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:23:17pm

re: #221 Nevergiveup

But if they cut the mail how will the IRS ever reach you?

They can still reach me just fine…..they have invaded my office and computer systems, every 2 weeks the just come in and take away.

233 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:23:20pm

re: #224 Guanxi88

Problem is, the joke now is “Have one child, PLEASE!” because so many younger Chinese have decided to swap the family life in favor of the career.

I was floored during my brief trip there how many unmarried people I met that were thirty or even a bit older. It was a skewed sample, but I met exactly ONE married male under 25 with a child in two weeks.

234 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:24:01pm

re: #216 CyanSnowHawk

Then they will regulate their capitalism out of existence as well. When government control of the media slacks off enough, it won’t take too many of those melamine in the milk stories to have the population clamoring for protection from the big bad industrialists.

Is it just me, or does China’s industry look surprisingly like turn of the 20th Century American industry?

It almost looks like China sees Capitalism as workable, but it’s unlikely that they’ll be able to keep their hands off.

235 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:24:12pm

So Adolf Coors was right!
“Unions are the direct result of mismanagement”

236 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:25:05pm

re: #233 OldLineTexan

I was floored during my brief trip there how many unmarried people I met that were thirty or even a bit older. It was a skewed sample, but I met exactly ONE married male under 25 with a child in two weeks.

I hear the same thing from my contacts over there. One of my suppliers, with whom I’ve gotten friendly, even laments that he’s worried to leave his business to his son, because the kid’s almost 40 and still hasn’t married, and doesn’t even seem interested in doing anything but working and dating. Says he can’t see the point in all his work, if it all dies with the next generation.

237 Truth Stick  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:25:22pm

re: #230 MacDuff

I couldn’t agree more. For me, the mailman is just a reason for the dog to bark when he hears the mailbox. The last time I actually addressed an envelope and put a stamp on it, I remarked to myself “oh, how quaint”.

I wonder what would happen if I cut down my mail box? I would probably actually be charged with some felony for messing with my own mailbox, on my own piece of property.

238 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:25:22pm

re: #213 OldLineTexan

You could do that with mass transit too. A hybrid bus in NYC gets a whopping… 3.2mpg compared with 2.8 for the standard drivetrain.

With 40 people, the pmpg jumps tremendously to 128 pmpg on the hybrid.

However, most buses don’t run at full capacity, so their pmpg is far less than that.

My 2005 Corolla gets 30 mpg in mixed driving. It 60 pmpg when the Mrs is with me. If I have two other friends in the car, I’m getting that same 120 pmpg.

But, when those buses are riding around with just the driver, the mileage is so much worse than my Corolla. The same goes for diesel trains, which do well when fully loaded, but not so much when they’re underutilized.

239 Code Red 21  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:25:55pm

Being in an SUV during a multi-rollover accident several years ago I walked away with some cuts and bruises and balance issues from knocking the review mirror through the windshield, other than that I came out alive, in anything else I probably would have died. I bought the exact same SUV to replace the one that was totaled. When the f’rs in Washington drive a tiny tin can with wheels attached, because that’s what they want us to drive, then maybe I might think about it. Bastards

240 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:28:01pm

re: #239 Code Red 21

Being in an SUV during a multi-rollover accident several years ago I walked away with some cuts and bruises and balance issues from knocking the review mirror through the windshield, other than that I came out alive, in anything else I probably would have died. I bought the exact same SUV to replace the one that was totaled. When the f’rs in Washington drive a tiny tin can with wheels attached, because that’s what they want us to drive, then maybe I might think about it. Bastards

Ah, but you fail to realize that Congresscritters are more equal than the rest of us animals.

241 Ben Hur  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:28:07pm

re: #235 reloadingisnotahobby

So Adolf Coors was right!
“Unions are the direct result of mismanagement”

Adolf, indeed.

242 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:28:51pm

re: #238 lawhawk

I have to drive my car to the bus stop; that’s how close it is. Also, no trains (for people). It is a mess where I live if you do not have private wheels. No circulator routes for groceries, hospitals, schools, etc. I do ride the bus every time I get jury duty. It’s free (i.e., subsidized by the pooer paying customers and sales tax).

I also have a Corolla, and I employ it when possible to save on gas. It’s standard; I get about 32-35. I still end up by myself in the van to and from work, most days. However, I have a short commute.

243 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:29:11pm

re: #208 reloadingisnotahobby

Yet Fords in better shape than all of them ,right?

Ford might have been lucky in respect to the timing on this. About 5-7 years ago they embarked on a plan to return to profitability after a number of years of serious losses. This plan was paying off significantly when the downturn hit followed by the energy spike last year. Of all the Automakers, Ford was the most flexible and able to respond to rapidly changing conditions. It may not help them. When this is said and done, they will likely have the worst union deal of the three.

Also, the UAW and the UAW retirement fund (or group or whatever they call themselves) are separate entities. The union that represents the current workers is not the group that will own the big chunks of GM and Chrysler, it is the retirement fund that is in that position. A conflict of interest sure, but technically not as direct a one as is generally assumed.

244 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:29:24pm

Traditional marriage proponent (with Press Credentials) demanding an audience with the president gets dragged off the tarmac at LAX by Secret Service.

245 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:29:39pm

re: #227 poteen


1. I’ve been trying to identify who the “GM bondholders”are. Are they bankers trying to get more bailout money, suppliers, private investors or what mix? Who’s investments are being protected?

Mostly large commercial investors. Think mutual funds, for instance, that hold a great many GM bonds as part of their portfolios. If I recall, you need to hold at least a 3% or 5% piece of the total bond pie to get a seat at the table, but I could be wrong about the exact lower cutoff.

246 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:31:10pm

re: #245 SixDegrees

Dude, you said “pie”.

/curse you, stomach!

247 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:31:52pm

re: #237 Truth Stick

I wonder what would happen if I cut down my mail box? I would probably actually be charged with some felony for messing with my own mailbox, on my own piece of property.

Kramers attempt to stop mail was unsuccessful.

248 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:32:20pm

re: #230 MacDuff

I couldn’t agree more. For me, the mailman is just a reason for the dog to bark when he hears the mailbox. The last time I actually addressed an envelope and put a stamp on it, I remarked to myself “oh, how quaint”.

The post office has to deliver everywhere. There are probably some backwoods places that UPS and FedEx don’t go.

And then, some things need to be physically shipped, at cheaper than FedEx/UPS rates. I can get my credit card bills electronically, but the cards themselves need to be physically shipped.

249 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:32:47pm

As expected the Tea Party leadership is still silent about particiopation from White Nationalists. Here’s what the Paulians have to say about the ADL press release….
ADL warns that “white supremacists” are using Tea Parties and Ron Paul for recruiting

ADL was founded in 1913 to defend a jewish man, Leo Frank, who raped and murdered a little girl, Mary Fagan. Frank then tried to frame an innocent black man for the horrible crime.

The jewish rapist/murderer was found guilty, but he was spared the death penalty due to the pressure put on some high level connections.

A Georgiaa mob took matters into their own hands, stormed the jail, took the killer away and lynched him. ADL to this day says that Frank was innocent. (A bullshit claim when you review the evidence)

The ADL wields enormous political power, and has always been quick to use it for destroying American patriots as “anti-semites”..

They are at it again….COMING AFTER US!……red this,,,….


Not all the Paulians are supportive, but plenty are….

Good for the mob, now they need to finish the job and lynch the entire ADL.


….

I’ve got one word for the ADL - Haganah. We can do that, too.
250 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:33:05pm

re: #248 Kosh’s Shadow

The post office has to deliver everywhere. There are probably some backwoods places that UPS and FedEx don’t go.

And then, some things need to be physically shipped, at cheaper than FedEx/UPS rates. I can get my credit card bills electronically, but the cards themselves need to be physically shipped.

When need to get you your VISA implant chip …

/

251 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:33:12pm

The thing that really pisses me off about this whole deal, of which the Auto bailout is but a part, is that these measures, intended to stave off the catastrophic, seem thus far to have done nothing but feather the nests of certain groups at the expense of the taxpayer and the rule of law. We saw it with the banks, the mortgages, now with autos, and soon with healthcare.

252 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:33:39pm

I’ve given some thought to this auto industry debacle and the implications thereof. So, if I may:

The basic premise of our system is that the government retains the right to enact certain rules by which private industries play and, within the confines of those rules, businesses either prosper or fail. I agree with that premise. Additionally, government should do only those things that people and private industry cannot do themselves (basic infrastructure, national defense, law enforcement, etc.).

Government-run industries are anathema to our capitalist system. The government takeover of a large portion of our automobile industry is unprecedented in our history and dangerous to our future.

Political parties are simply groups of people who share a common ideology. Presidential administrations are, by their nature, political, in the sense that the president’s political ideology is on display in his/her appointments, pronouncements, policies and the execution of those policies.

Presidents and their administrations should not hold sway over the operation of private industry and if we allow any president or administration to do so, political ideology will naturally follow. The separation of these two entities is of primary importance to the survival of the capitalist system, and that separation seems to become narrower by the day.

253 Preposter S  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:33:55pm

A “learned reader of the Detroit FreePress weighs in:


User Image
bayareaguy wrote:
Time for another round of those anonymous phone calls from officals at the Treasury Dept. to the Bondholders: “Hi, this is the Treasury, how’s the weather there, how was your weekend, get with the President’s plan, Bub, or we’ll make you very sorry you didn’t - oh, and have a nice day.” And it’s a fair offer Obama’s auto flunkies have devised, you’re only owed a collective $27 billion but you’ll be getting stock in the New GM. True, there’s no market for the stock, it’s currently selling for 5 points below worthless but that’s the investor’s problem.

We may never have had pure capitalism in America but then again we’ve never had pure facism either. Maybe we should try a little old fashioned fascism and win one for the Obama. Mussolini wasn’t exactly a sweetheart but at least he got the trains to run on time. Maybe Obama can get Americans to buy cars from Government Motors. Stick by the phone, you’ll be hearing more from Washington real soon.

Some fascists are left

254 poteen  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:34:22pm

re: #235 reloadingisnotahobby

100 yrs ago, labor unions were necessary to represent workers to large and powerful corporations.Now they ARE the large corp.

255 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:34:26pm

re: #251 Guanxi88

The thing that really pisses me off about this whole deal, of which the Auto bailout is but a part, is that these measures, intended to stave off the catastrophic, seem thus far to have done nothing but feather the nests of certain groups at the expense of the taxpayer and the rule of law. We saw it with the banks, the mortgages, now with autos, and soon with healthcare.

Government is doing it, that implies shady dealings and political payoffs from the get-go.

256 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:34:51pm

A UN human rights expert said Thursday that the United States is failing to properly investigate alleged war crimes committed by its soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Yeah joining this bunch was a good idea?

257 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:36:12pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

A UN human rights expert said Thursday that the United States is failing to properly investigate alleged war crimes committed by its soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Yeah joining this bunch was a good idea?

And where is this UN Human Rights expert from? China? Iran? Venezuela? Cuba?

258 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:36:40pm

re: #243 CyanSnowHawk

Ford might have been lucky in respect to the timing on this. About 5-7 years ago they embarked on a plan to return to profitability after a number of years of serious losses. This plan was paying off significantly when the downturn hit followed by the energy spike last year. Of all the Automakers, Ford was the most flexible and able to respond to rapidly changing conditions. It may not help them. When this is said and done, they will likely have the worst union deal of the three.

Also, the UAW and the UAW retirement fund (or group or whatever they call themselves) are separate entities. The union that represents the current workers is not the group that will own the big chunks of GM and Chrysler, it is the retirement fund that is in that position. A conflict of interest sure, but technically not as direct a one as is generally assumed.

Ford may very well chose to enter bankruptcy simply in order to keep the playing field level; bankruptcy protection offers lots of advantages that remaining public doesn’t. They are in an excellent position to do so, however, because they haven’t taken any government funding and would enter bankruptcy on their own terms, unencumbered, while still receiving full court protection. Once under the court’s protection, they could shed their union and pension contracts in an instant.

I don’t think Ford will take this path, however. The Ford family wants to retain control of the company, something which would be lost in bankruptcy proceedings. And the may not have to. As you point out, Ford has been well managed for the last several years, and is in an excellent position to weather this storm.

Note, too, that there aren’t any other auto companies whining about insolvency. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, et al are not having good years, but they aren’t folding their tents, either. Things are not nearly so bad that well-run companies cannot survive; times are tough, but not fatal, except for the weak. And both GM and Chrysler have been notably weak for years. It isn’t exactly a new phenomenon.

259 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:36:48pm

re: #248 Kosh’s Shadow

The post office has to deliver everywhere. There are probably some backwoods places that UPS and FedEx don’t go.

And then, some things need to be physically shipped, at cheaper than FedEx/UPS rates. I can get my credit card bills electronically, but the cards themselves need to be physically shipped.

Point well taken. But is 6 day per week delivery service really necessary?

260 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:36:55pm

Russia’s UN ambassador said Thursday there is wide agreement among key world powers on what a new UN resolution should include to respond to North Korea’s second nuclear test which violated a Security Council ban.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Translation: Same old Same old

261 brookly red  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:37:16pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

A UN human rights expert said Thursday that the United States is failing to properly investigate alleged war crimes committed by its soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Yeah joining this bunch was a good idea?

how much did that cost?

262 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:37:19pm

re: #248 Kosh’s Shadow

The post office has to deliver everywhere. There are probably some backwoods places that UPS and FedEx don’t go.

About 2 years ago the feds made a deal with FedEx to serve each others routes. If the FedEx has a delivery in an unserviced area the USPS will handle it for them and vice versa. Have you noticed the FedEx boxes stationed in front of all USPS locations? - part of the deal.

263 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:37:25pm

re: #246 OldLineTexan

Dude, you said “pie”.

/curse you, stomach!

Sorry.

264 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:37:49pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

A UN human rights expert said Thursday that the United States is failing to properly investigate alleged war crimes committed by its soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Yeah joining this bunch was a good idea?

It could be worse … there could be Tea Parties.

265 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:38:02pm

re: #259 MacDuff

Point well taken. But is 6 day per week delivery service really necessary?

Yes.

266 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:38:34pm

re: #259 MacDuff

Point well taken. But is 6 day per week delivery service really necessary?

Certainly is. Think of all the jobs lost if you reduce delivery days. /

267 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:38:46pm

re: #264 OldLineTexan

It could be worse … there could be Tea Parties.

ROTFLMHWA. *SNORT*

268 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:38:52pm

re: #263 SixDegrees

Sorry.

Admit it. You want my weight-loss program to FAIL!

/

269 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:39:15pm

re: #259 MacDuff

Point well taken. But is 6 day per week delivery service really necessary?

No, they could drop Saturdays without much loss.
(Some rumor was going around that they were going to drop Tuesdays, a dumb idea with all the Monday holidays - you could get a bill delayed 4 days instead of 2.)

270 poteen  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:39:18pm

re: #245 SixDegrees

Commercial investors? That’s my question. Have these investors already taken TARP money for their bad RE investments?

271 MacDuff  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:39:38pm

re: #265 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yes.

Not to be needlessly argumentative, but how so?

272 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:40:14pm

re: #262 unrealizedviewpoint

About 2 years ago the feds made a deal with FedEx to serve each others routes. If the FedEx has a delivery in an unserviced area the USPS will handle it for them and vice versa. Have you noticed the FedEx boxes stationed in front of all USPS locations? - part of the deal.

So someone would still have to take the locations FedEx doesn’t (or does through the post office)

273 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:40:30pm

re: #271 MacDuff

Not to be needlessly argumentative, but how so?

Because I get and send mail every day, including Saturday. No argument needed.

274 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:40:51pm

Once FBV and I find this GM pie, these “investors” will be out in the cold.

275 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:41:48pm

re: #273 FurryOldGuyJeans

Because I get and send mail every day, including Saturday. No argument needed.

Remember twice-a-day mail? I do, and I’m not that old. Morning post and evening post. Very civilized, too.

276 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:41:56pm

re: #274 OldLineTexan

Once FBV and I find this GM pie, these “investors” will be out in the cold.

I think there are already a few slices missing from the pie.

277 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:41:56pm

re: #158 MacDuff

In the interim, Ford plays by one set of rules while GM and Chrysler play by another. Are Ford”s debts being forgiven as are GM’s? Are Ford’s creditors willing to settle for 3 to 5 percent of their investment as is Chrysler’s government investor?

Ford bonds are selling for about 40 cents on the dollar.

278 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:42:17pm

re: #274 OldLineTexan

Once FBV and I find this GM pie, these “investors” will be out in the cold.

If it’s a chili frito pie, FBV may be out in the cold, and I’d be sleeping on the couch.

279 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:42:40pm

re: #276 Kosh’s Shadow

I think there are already a few slices missing from the pie.

That FBV! He is obviously holding out on me!

/

280 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:43:01pm

Draft UN resolution condemns N.Korea nuclear test
Published: 05.28.09, 22:54 / Israel News

A draft resolution being circulated among key UN Security Council members would strongly condemn North Korea’s nuclear test and urge
UN member states to immediately enforce previously approved
sanctions against Pyongyang

So they are doing nothing. Hey Obama way to go. Man after a nuke explosion and what 6 missile tests, that is the best your great hope the UN came up with? This guy is gonna get us all Killed.

281 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:43:07pm

re: #278 Guanxi88

If it’s a chili frito pie, FBV may be out in the cold, and I’d be sleeping on the couch.

You make a salient point. It could even be shepherd’s pie …

282 KenJen  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:43:08pm

re: #272 Kosh’s Shadow

So someone would still have to take the locations FedEx doesn’t (or does through the post office)

I believe FedEx is also handling some of the USPS international shipping. If you haven’t noticed USPS dropped surface shipping and now only offers priority or first class intl shipping. It’s a lot more expensive.

283 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:43:23pm

re: #273 FurryOldGuyJeans

But Saturday delivery?
I think the Posal del could have a two day weekend!…
The O/T savings would be huge but you’d have to go the P.O.
to mail anything!

284 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #275 Guanxi88

Remember twice-a-day mail? I do, and I’m not that old. Morning post and evening post. Very civilized, too.

Never had that here, all I remember is morning and evening newspapers.

For that matter I remember the morning TV farm report here in the Seattle area.

285 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:43:54pm

Doesn’t GM still own a big slice of Toyota?

Who gets that?

286 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:44:18pm

re: #284 FurryOldGuyJeans

Never had that here, all I remember is morning and evening newspapers.

For that matter I remember the morning TV farm report here in the Seattle area.

I miss ol’ Dewey Compton in Houston.

287 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:44:51pm

re: #251 Guanxi88

The thing that really pisses me off about this whole deal, of which the Auto bailout is but a part, is that these measures, intended to stave off the catastrophic, seem thus far to have done nothing but feather the nests of certain groups at the expense of the taxpayer and the rule of law. We saw it with the banks, the mortgages, now with autos, and soon with healthcare.

I agree. After all these months and all these billions of dollars, the “bailout” has completely failed to achieve it’s state goal - to keep these companies out of bankruptcy. It has been a completely, utter, miserable, epic and total failure. The only thing it has done is given auto executives, sitting atop piles of stock options that would be rendered utterly worthless the moment the companies entered bankruptcy court, a window in which to convert those options into sellable shares that they could slowly dump into the marketplace without running afoul of monthly limits on sales by executive shareholders. You can bet, too, that there are a number of Congress members who hold large blocks of stock in these companies that have likewise been dribbling shares back into the market under SEC radar, in hopes of coming out the end of the process with something rather than absolutely nothing. These sales, in turn, have shoved the stocks into penny territory even more rapidly, eroding corporate bargaining power, but greed triumphs over good corporate citizenship any day.

288 unreconstructed rebel  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:45:00pm

re: #84 Nevergiveup

Clinton says formation of Palestinian state is in Israel’s best interest

[Link: www.ynetnews.com…]

Reminds me when my mother said shit like that? I didn’t believe it then, and I don’t believe it now.

Paul Mirengoff from over at Power Line is thinking that the Obama administration wants to topple the Israeli government.

289 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:45:12pm

re: #283 reloadingisnotahobby

But Saturday delivery?
I think the Posal del could have a two day weekend!…
The O/T savings would be huge but you’d have to go the P.O.
to mail anything!

Yes, Saturday delivery. Demand efficiency from government, not let them dictate.

290 brookly red  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:45:17pm

re: #281 OldLineTexan

You make a salient point. It could even be shepherd’s pie …

It’s pork pie, sheesh.

291 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:46:06pm

“Now we have more than 7,000 centrifuges and the West dare not threaten us,” IRNA quoted Ahmadinejad as saying on a small radio station late Wednesday.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Where does he get the impression the West will do nothing? Oh yeah, the N Koreans explode a nuke and nothing happens. never mind

292 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:46:09pm

re: #290 brookly red

It’s pork pie, sheesh.

“I’ll eat my hat” is a turn of phrase, my good man, not a menu choice!

293 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:46:09pm

re: #251 Guanxi88

The thing that really pisses me off about this whole deal, of which the Auto bailout is but a part, is that these measures, intended to stave off the catastrophic, seem thus far to have done nothing but feather the nests of certain groups at the expense of the taxpayer and the rule of law. We saw it with the banks, the mortgages, now with autos, and soon with healthcare.

Well, someone said “Never waste a crisis” or something to that effect…

294 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:46:30pm

re: #268 OldLineTexan

Admit it. You want my weight-loss program to FAIL!

/

Stay strong OLT. I’m down 5 pounds from my peak. 30 to go.

295 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:47:12pm

re: #294 CyanSnowHawk

Stay strong OLT. I’m down 5 pounds from my peak. 30 to go.

30 away would be a cause for rejoicing for me. :%P%

296 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:47:53pm

re: #294 CyanSnowHawk

Stay strong OLT. I’m down 5 pounds from my peak. 30 to go.

That’s a bit more than I have left to do, but 220 to 185 is the plan.

My body does not like 185.

297 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:48:00pm

re: #288 unreconstructed rebel

Yeah maybe, but what kind of Government in Israel do they think they would get after?

298 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:48:37pm

I cannot find the link to the story that gave the 41% statistic. Unfortunately I did not save the story either. I can find all sorts of links to statistics about everything else under the sun, but somehow the number of vehicles involved in any given accident is not one that is kept in FARS as far as I can determine.

299 Eowyn2  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:48:47pm

OT
Major Error in Judgement, could it have been a mistake of the young?
[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

300 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:49:34pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

A UN human rights expert said Thursday that the United States is failing to properly investigate alleged war crimes committed by its soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Veto his ass. Dumb fuck. What kind of human rights “expert” works for the UN, anyway, and allows his own organization to systematically rape and pillage the very people they’re supposed to be helping, in country after country after country, year after year after year, then engages in a massive coverup when confronted with the evidence of such crimes and does absolutely nothing about them?

UN human rights “experts” can kiss my ass. Both cheeks available, to reduce waiting time in the huge line that will form anyway.

301 Eowyn2  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:50:02pm

re: #280 Nevergiveup

Draft UN resolution condemns N.Korea nuclear test
Published: 05.28.09, 22:54 / Israel News

A draft resolution being circulated among key UN Security Council members would strongly condemn North Korea’s nuclear test and urge
UN member states to immediately enforce previously approved
sanctions against Pyongyang

So they are doing nothing. Hey Obama way to go. Man after a nuke explosion and what 6 missile tests, that is the best your great hope the UN came up with? This guy is gonna get us all Killed.


obviously a strongly worded condemnation.

302 eon  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:50:23pm

re: #227 poteen

The biggest of the “Big 4” has been the UAW for years. My thought is to let them have the companies and either make it work or go bankrupt also.
I have a few questions though.
1. I’ve been trying to identify who the “GM bondholders”are. Are they bankers trying to get more bailout money, suppliers, private investors or what mix? Who’s investments are being protected?

2. GM and Chrysler have massive assets, “”toxic” or overleveraged as they are. Why aren’t there groups of investors lining up with offers to buy those assets at their own bailout price. The American Way. I realize they may have to wait for BK but I haven’t heard of any other interest. Is it BECAUSE the gov’t is interfering.

Good afternoon, Lizards.

1. Most of the GM bondholders who haven’t rolled over for The One are individuals, a large percentage of same being older people who bought the bonds as part of diversified portfolios many years ago. Another big chunk are GM retirees who got the bonds as part of their retirement packages. All are now seeing a big part of their nest eggs going down the drain, and converting them to stocks (under ugly threats by The one’s minions) would still only give them about 10% of their face value. I see serious lawsuits developing from this.

2. Like Chrysler, GM is not going to be permitted to sell off assets, toxic or otherwise. The most obvious example being Saturn. Their ads right now trumpet that they are going to be an “independent company” again.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

The UAW is determined to hold onto all of GM’s assets, to ensure that every d***ed one is, becomes, or remains a (closed) union shop. (Another reason for Card Check.) The last thing they want is to be competing with small, localized specialty car makers who are most likely at least partly worker-owned, as Saturn was at the start. (“Worker-owned” is a different thing from “union-owned”, and believe me the UAW knows the difference. Most obviously, that worker-owned companies don’t unionize unless forced to do so, practically at gunpoint.) I strongly suspect that part of the “negotiations” that caused the UAW to back off from their original demand for 30+% ownership of GM under the New Order was The One acceding to their demands that, in return for them taking a smaller slice of the pie, GM not be allowed to divest any section they could control by forced unionization. Either way, the UAW ends up running GM, just as they will with Chrysler, for the reasons I have already stated.

My guess is, they’ll run them both into the ground.

And yes, the UAW “negotiating” with Ford while owning its competitors (at least in part) is a major Conflict of Interest, most notably under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Theodore Roosevelt would not be pleased with the U.S. government, specifically the President, creating exactly the kind of interlocking-board cartel he campaigned against during his entire political life.

In fact, I’m reasonably sure that his reaction would not be repeatable in polite company.

cheers

eon

303 quickjustice  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:51:45pm

As with Chrysler, government intervention has decreased the odds of success of this reorganization effort.

304 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:52:28pm

re: #287 SixDegrees

Does it not occur to somebody that perhaps at least the weakest company should fail? Or are we dealing with some sort of ID crowd in government who thinks that evolution and survival of the fittest (or at least the lucky) is a myth.

A failure on the part of Chrysler would redistribute its sales and the manufacturing of its cars to other auto makers who do a better job. Even GM would not have to close as many plants. They are expected to announce closing a dozen or so on monday. Morons.

305 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:53:10pm

re: #296 OldLineTexan

That’s a bit more than I have left to do, but 220 to 185 is the plan.

My body does not like 185.

That is exact the numbers I am working on and my Wii fit tells me I am overweight every night. Peaked at 221 last month, held steady for a while and am now dropping.

306 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:53:39pm

re: #305 CyanSnowHawk

That is exact the numbers I am working on and my Wii fit tells me I am overweight every night. Peaked at 221 last month, held steady for a while and am now dropping.

OK, I will not be talking to the damned Wii!

/

307 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:53:45pm

re: #272 Kosh’s Shadow

So someone would still have to take the locations FedEx doesn’t (or does through the post office)

I’m not sure I understand your question. - FedEx delivers Postal Service overnights and the Post Office delivers FedEx’s overnights.

308 callahan23  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:54:10pm

re: #256 Nevergiveup

A UN human rights expert said Thursday that the United States is failing to properly investigate alleged war crimes committed by its soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Yeah joining this bunch was a good idea?

Yet the UN rejects calls for Sri Lanka war crimes inquiry.
Strange - no
Logic - typical UN bias.

309 ladycatnip  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:56:37pm

Jumping in here late, and OT: There’s much discussion here about giving the O the benefit of the doubt and not wishing failure of any of his grossly socialist policies - well, here’s yet another reason to be extremely wary of this admin:

Pelosi: “We have so much room for improvement,” she said. “Every aspect of our lives must be subjected to an inventory … of how we are taking responsibility.”

And believe me, the left is drooling for the opportunity to tell us all just how we’re to “take responsibility”. The sham called climate change, nee global warming, is the sacred cow of the left. It has the potential to hand every aspect of our lives over to the left on a platter as well as emptying our pockets into their coffers. Obama warned during his campaign that he wants to bankrupt the coal industry and have our utility bills skyrocket - with crickets from the press. Good Lord, if a republican prez had said that he’d be toast.

Obama’s power grab of the auto and banking industry should be causing a stir. Again, crickets.

This is not a president who is looking out for the best interests of the American people.

310 Shr_Nfr  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:56:56pm

The following is a description of the rules of bankruptcy and economics as implemented by the Obama administration: [Link: www.bartel.org…]

311 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:57:16pm

re: #304 Shr_Nfr

Does it not occur to somebody that perhaps at least the weakest company should fail? Or are we dealing with some sort of ID crowd in government who thinks that evolution and survival of the fittest (or at least the lucky) is a myth.

A failure on the part of Chrysler would redistribute its sales and the manufacturing of its cars to other auto makers who do a better job. Even GM would not have to close as many plants. They are expected to announce closing a dozen or so on monday. Morons.

Also, keep in mind that there is a wold of difference between bankruptcy and failure. Bankruptcy allows a company to reorganize while granting protection from creditors and other contractual obligations - like union contracts - while allowing the company to rebuild itself and emerge, in the end, stronger than when it entered court protection. A real captain of industry would have taken his company into bankruptcy court last fall, the moment it became apparent that this was the only course that would keep the company strong in the long run, stock options and other corporate compensation be damned. Too much to expect from the weasels of industry now running so many large corporations, unfortunately.

312 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:57:37pm

re: #282 KenJen

I believe FedEx is also handling some of the USPS international shipping. If you haven’t noticed USPS dropped surface shipping and now only offers priority or first class intl shipping. It’s a lot more expensive.

That’s why. Ahhh.

313 Former Belgian  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:01:26pm

re: #254 poteen

100 yrs ago, labor unions were necessary to represent workers to large and powerful corporations.Now they ARE the large corp.

Jerry Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy:

“In any bureaucratic organization there are two kinds of employees: those who work to further purpose of the organization and those who work to further the organization itself. Over time, the second group will invariably acquire control of the organization.”

314 Buck  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:02:48pm

Has anyone already pointed out that GM stock went up 170% today?

GM 3.11 +1.96 (170.43%)

315 eon  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:20:04pm

re: #314 Buck

Has anyone already pointed out that GM stock went up 170% today?

GM 3.11 +1.96 (170.43%)

Twice nothing is still nothing.

-Cyrano Jones (Stanley Adams), “The Trouble With Tribbles”, Star Trek; The Original Series

cheers

eon

316 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:23:14pm

re: #314 Buck

Has anyone already pointed out that GM stock went up 170% today?

GM 3.11 +1.96 (170.43%)

With the bondholders agreement that was reached, it’s possible bankruptcy may be avoided. Hence the spike. With bankruptcy looming, the stock was essentially worthless; now, that may not be true. If you like GM and it’s management, it’s still a worthy speculative buy at this point, assuming it avoids bankruptcy. It wouldn’t be surprising to see it’s stock rise to 10-15 over the next year or two if it can keep it’s head above water.

To my mind, however, GM is riddled with incompetent managers from top to bottom, and no amount of protection will be enough to dislodge these butt leeches. When I think of GM stock, I think of ten foot poles.

317 SixDegrees  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:26:18pm

re: #314 Buck

Has anyone already pointed out that GM stock went up 170% today?

GM 3.11 +1.96 (170.43%)

By the way - my quote service (notoriously flaky) is showing GM closed at $1.12, down 3 cents on the day. Where did you get this quote from?

318 Yashmak  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:36:14pm

re: #317 SixDegrees

By the way - my quote service (notoriously flaky) is showing GM closed at $1.12, down 3 cents on the day. Where did you get this quote from?

Your stock quote service is correct. It closed at $1.12.

319 Yashmak  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:41:24pm

re: #225 OldLineTexan

So you’re going to buy me a “commuter car”, or maybe a motorcycle?

How utterly generous of you.

Actually, I tend to favor people buying their own cars… call me crazy.

320 Yashmak  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:45:32pm

re: #211 Spare O’Lake

Do you also look forward to the GM car plants being shut down and moved offshore to the cheap labour markets of China and India?

Nope, and I don’t think I implied or stated that I do.

Because that is what is likely going to happen unless Obama nationalizes and erects protectionist trade barriers.
This is a complete and utter disaster.

Well, if nationalization continues along the present lines, it’s going to create bigger problems for our automotive industry than it solves. Granting (partial) ownership to the UAW creates a pretty significant conflict of interest, one I feel likely to further degrade the profitability of the industry.

Who knows? Maybe when the UAW stands to lose money if their members get too much in the way of contract negotiations, they’ll back off on benefits etc. etc., reducing the labor cost…but I doubt it.

321 Yashmak  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:48:02pm

re: #171 redc1c4

that’s just stupid….. if people want to own them, and can afford to, who are you say they can’t?

Did I say they can’t? No.

322 Yashmak  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:52:22pm

re: #174 FurryOldGuyJeans

So you like being collectivized?

I believe I only stated a desire to see smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles on the road. And I also stated I wasn’t happy about Obama mandating it. You’re misrepresenting my comment.

323 Buck  Thu, May 28, 2009 4:01:19pm

re: #317 SixDegrees

By the way - my quote service (notoriously flaky) is showing GM closed at $1.12, down 3 cents on the day. Where did you get this quote from?

YOU ARE RIGHT!

My quote service (which was Google) was screwed. I just copied and pasted …..

I AM SO EMBARRASSED!

324 Orangutan  Thu, May 28, 2009 7:49:46pm

re: #3 Honorary Yooper

No, it isn’t. It’s actually pretty damn sad.

You misinterpret sarcasm.

This is another sad case of poorly managed government intervention in business.

325 Canoe Train  Fri, May 29, 2009 6:49:18am

Well, this should have happened in the first place. No bailout — just bankruptcy.


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