Bad Craziness Watch: Right Wing Reaction to the Tiller Murder

At Free Republic, they’re celebrating the murder of Dr. George Tiller. From the following two threads:

Report: George Tiller Shot To Death [Child Murderer Killed At Wichita Church]

George Tiller (Child Murderer) shot to death at Wichita church

… a selection of comments, among hundreds (if not thousands) of similar comments:

I’m not weeping for the scumbag himself.I haven’t the fainest doubt that he is,at this very moment,rotting in the very special place in hell that he so richly earned.

What I’m saying is that this will hurt the anti-abortion *cause*…and hurt it badly.

If you doubt me…just watch.

Up to a few years ago, I would have agreed with your statement, Doug.

However, bush2 failed miserably with his “friendly tone” and I’m beginning to think we MUST bring a gun to a gun fight if we have any chance to win this battle against satan and his minions.

One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

What goes around comes around…

Hope the guy gets away.

When I first read this, part of me wondered if some liberal isn’t secretly behind this to get just the outcome you have listed. I used to not be so paranoid, until this surreal reality replaced what used to be. Interesting the timing of this, as it was recently released that according to polls a majority of Americans are anti-abortion/pro-life. Good way to discredit the movement and those beliefs - assassinate an abortionist.

Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society.

I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that…

No doubt this ‘man’ is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his ‘passing’ is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don’t know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.

It’s too bad the suspect didn’t poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.

You guys celebrating this may just be celebrating the loss of your own freedoms. Don’t be fools. This isn’t good nor is it right.

My, my, that idea just scares me to death. I guess I should be a damned hypocrite and say that I’m sorry someone offed the lousey ration of skunksqueeze.

Not in this life.

Hmmm. The shooter no doubt committed murder by our laws.
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer.

In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery.

Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.

Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don’t say that the question has no relevance — this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined.

His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.

I do not support this, but I do understand this.

Kansas politics has been corrupted to the core by George Tiller, making him like a mobster above the law.

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

Whatever “church” Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.

Reichstag Fire.

jury (of one) nullification

Why is the death of a satanic worshipper tragic?

He had the goods on Kathleen Sebelius, and that means she was blackmailable. I wonder if they will catch the killer on this one?!

There are a lot more in this vein. It goes on and on and on.

Comments like this are posted at right-wing blogs and news sites all over the web, by the thousands. For another example, at the Fox News affiliate website in Kansas City:

Seems to me he got what he deserved. We now have one less child killer on the loose
steve archer @ 2:24 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

The killing of George Tiller is an eye for an eye, but much too late IMO. He’d have to die many, many times over to make up for the babies he has murdered.
Rob @ 2:23 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

One down—how many left to go? The shooter is a martyr, my prayers are with him.
chrissypoo6 @ 2:22 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

I hope this puts the fear of God into the rest of you abortion providers! Tiller got off easy-he should have suffered the same fate as the innocent children he murdered!
chrissypoo6 @ 2:03 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

I know not the mind of God. But as a human, THIS man had it coming. Who sucks a child to pieces, then goes to church? I will stand with whoever did this ANY day before I stand with Tiller.
John @ 2:03 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

Guess someone just made a “choice” right? Since none of us are any more than a choice our mother happened to make. People who get abortions should BE aborted since it’s no big deal.
Johnny @ 2:03 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

Got what he deserved.
Tam @ 2:02 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

He was aborted….no big deal. Hooray to the gunman.
InAllFairness @ 2:02 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

oh gosh, too bad so sad, the man who bought painful death to a lot of innocent chidlren met his end through a no dobt painful death…….he will be sadly missed by few……drop us a line from hell doc, enjoy……….-…….
bob Hayes @ 2:02 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

I see another late (late, late) term abortion has been preformed in KS.
blaster @ 2:01 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

“Sic semper infanticidii aborsa.” May this only be the beginning.
Anonymous @ 2:01 PM CDT, May 31, 2009

And another barrage of ugly hatred and celebration, in comments at the KWCH website: Police: Tiller Died of Single Gunshot Wound:

Tiller is screaming as the demons rape him. The babies he murdered have been given their just regenge.

George Tiller’s Abortion Service;
“You rape em, we scrape em. No fetus
has even beat us”. Enjoy Hell George

I cheer the deaths of people such as tiller, stalin, pol pot, and the like.

Although Im not happy about this news- it might have been more fair if he had been killed like his countless innocent victims were- cut into pieces and sucked down a sink.

JUSTICE IS SERVED. TILLER GOT WHAT HE DESERVED.

I am astonished at the disconnect between this discussion and the facts necessary to resolve any part of it. It is alleged back and forth whether killing “Tiller the Killer”, as he was called by Operation Rescue 20 years ago, is “Christian”, yet not one Bible quote to settle the question! So here is a private message, only for those of you who actually care about God’s opinion of all this: Pro 24:10 If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small. 11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? Notice that God is talking about rescuing victims of government-protected murder, since ordinary murderers lack the power to kill by a schedule publicly known. Luke 1:41 shows we can respond to God even before birth; Jer 1:5 shows God assigns missions to us even before conception; Psalm 139:13-16 shows personality existing at conception; Jer 32:35 shows child murder as so unthinkable that not even God thought of it! So there you have it: if you still want to call God unjust or bigoted compared with your more highly evolved self, keep shooting off your mouth at Him. Even though some of your barbs will hit me, since I am standing with God as well as I can, it is safer here than there. Dave Leach, Des Moines

Somebody had to do it. Just need F5
tornados to finish off all the abortionists.
Wichita is not tornado alley for nothing!

What do people expect….that we should be proud of a monster like Tiller? Late term abortion?!!! Who could do such a thing?!!

My only two regrets
1. I didn’t come sooner
2. The shooter didn’t get away with it.

I assume we are still a Democracy under the “leadership” of Barack Obama…….for how much longer I don’t know.

I also assume that I won’t be arrested myself for this comment…or be dragged out of my bed by Thugs O The State and thrown in jail without defense.

Tiller didn’t get that….I hear you libs out there saying in chorus!
Neither did the babies he killed so mercilessly.

TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY AMERICA….BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!

It wasn’t a murder, it was a legal, safe, late-term abortion.

Some right wing blogs are closing comments on threads about the murder, and judging from the vile, sick stuff you see above, that’s probably a good idea.

This is very, very bad craziness, at its worst. Shame on all you people who are gloating and partying over a murder that took place inside a church. And you call yourselves “Christians?” What the hell is wrong with you?

I’m pleased to say that LGF did not join in this orgy of murder celebration; we had a few over the top comments, but they were quickly deleted, and a couple of people lost their accounts.

Jump to bottom

362 comments

1 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:21:19pm

Just plain disgusting.

I hate to say this but I am not surprised by the outbursts of kookery.

Ashamed, but not surprised.

2 taejohndo  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:21:23pm

HAte is non-partisan.

3 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:22:18pm

So the Religious Right now sanctions blood sacrifices upon an altar?

Truly disgusting the reactions.

4 Jetpilot1101  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:24:50pm

This type of behavior is inexcusable. I would recommend to many of these people who most likely call themselves "Christians" to dust of their Bibles and take a good long look at Exodus Chapter 20, specifically verse 13: "Thou shalt no kill". You can't have it both ways; either the Bible is right or you are. That aught to make some heads explode.

5 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:24:54pm

Wtg Charles. I hate reading any newspaper anymore because of the comments. News outlets and blogs need to do more to keep the haters from overwhelming the sane through sheer persistence and passion. It's stuff like the comments above that helps the whackos in their rationalizations and justifications.

6 Joe in Australia  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:25:18pm

Those comments are obviously from kooks (and rather scary ones), but are they kooks for believing that abortion is murder; or are they kooks for gloating over the death of someone whom they believe to be a murderer?

7 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:25:32pm

Way to stay classy folks, Now take a nice long look in the mirror, if you can stomach the sight.

Now take a look at LGF, see the difference yet.

8 Bloodnok  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:25:52pm

How cowardly of the blog owners who are too afraid of their own commenters and of their perception in the blogosphere to leave posts like that up.

9 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:26:37pm

re: #8 Bloodnok

How cowardly of the blog owners who are too afraid of their own commenters and of their perception in the blogosphere to leave posts like that up.

Or do they share the same views?

10 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:27:04pm

re: #6 Joe in Australia

Those comments are obviously from kooks (and rather scary ones), but are they kooks for believing that abortion is murder; or are they kooks for gloating over the death of someone whom they believe to be a murderer?

Both: until the law of the land changes abortion is not murder in this country. There are legitimate ways to get laws changed. It's called democracy.

11 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:27:08pm

an eye for an eye eh?.....Neanderthals...I'm sorry to have to call these folks my friends and neighbors

12 Bloodnok  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:27:42pm

re: #9 DEZes

Or do they share the same views?

That should have been my second point. You are correct.

13 Cato the Elder  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:28:03pm

Shudder.

14 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:28:19pm
I’m beginning to think we MUST bring a gun to a gun fight if we have any chance to win this battle against satan and his minions.

This one in particular struck me as horribly reminiscent of the spoutings of jihadist imams all over the world, from Saudi Arabia to the American prison system. "Of course you have to kill him -- he is an infidel. He is the enemy of God."

Let's not pretend that all of the religiously motivated barbarians are Muslims.

15 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:28:51pm

re: #2 taejohndo

HAte is non-partisan.

Also non-denominational.

16 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:29:11pm

re: #8 Bloodnok

How cowardly of the blog owners who are too afraid of their own commenters and of their perception in the blogosphere to leave posts like that up.

That's what happens when the inmates run the asylum. Too many blog owners don't bother to take control of their own blog.

17 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:29:13pm

re: #14 Last Mohican

This one in particular struck me as horribly reminiscent of the spoutings of jihadist imams all over the world, from Saudi Arabia to the American prison system. "Of course you have to kill him -- he is an infidel. He is the enemy of God."

Let's not pretend that all of the religiously motivated barbarians are Muslims.

I've also heard like sentiment expressed a few times here by people who've been long banned.

18 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:29:40pm

re: #12 Bloodnok

That should have been my second point. You are correct.

I do hope I am wrong, but alas.....

19 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:29:58pm

re: #8 Bloodnok

How cowardly of the blog owners who are too afraid of their own commenters and of their perception in the blogosphere to leave posts like that up.

It's reminiscent of what the Huffington Post does with threads about Dick Cheney.

20 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:30:00pm

LGF has truly evolved - and for the much much better.

Thanks Charles, for always showing class and sticking to the facts.

21 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:30:08pm

re: #14 Last Mohican

This one in particular struck me as horribly reminiscent of the spoutings of jihadist imams all over the world, from Saudi Arabia to the American prison system. "Of course you have to kill him -- he is an infidel. He is the enemy of God."

Let's not pretend that all of the religiously motivated barbarians are Muslims.

In essence some of these commentators are calling for a Fatwah on abortion providers. The irony is not lost on me.

22 amused  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:30:16pm

It would be interesting to monitor the murder rate over the next few weeks and see if there's an uptick in shootings as some of these people convince themselves that they have a divine right to inflict violence on someone who done them wrong.

23 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:30:19pm
Shame on all you people who are gloating and partying over a murder that took place inside a church. And you call yourselves “Christians?” What the hell is wrong with you?

I can't agree more, Charles. It's disgusting, and makes me think these people didn't really get Jesus' message.

24 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:30:31pm

Charles, all I can say is your attitude and class are infectious.

You've influenced my way of thinking more than you will ever know and I owe you and the commenters here a big thanks in helping me see things from a more enlightened perspective and in trying to be more open minded.

and I know that I am not alone.

25 Bloodnok  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:31:10pm

re: #24 Shug

Charles, all I can say is your attitude and class are infectious.

You've influenced my way of thinking more than you will ever know and I owe you and the commenters here a big thanks in helping me see things from a more enlightened perspective and in trying to be more open minded.

and I know that I am not alone.

You're not.

*raises hand*

26 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:31:31pm

I proudly stand with Shug.

27 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:31:43pm

re: #24 Shug

Your not alone by a long shot.

28 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:31:46pm
29 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:31:50pm

re: #1 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just plain disgusting.

I hate to say this but I am not surprised by the outbursts of kookery.

Ashamed, but not surprised.

What's the deal with Free Republic? Who runs it? Are they nuts? Mean? What's their problem .... does anybody know? Do you think a majority of the readers are hateful and vile nuts ..... or is the problem mainly with the lack of supervision?

30 irongrampa  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:31:50pm

Guess I'm gonna wait until all the info's available before commenting on this.
Seems like a logical choice.

31 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:32:03pm

re: #24 Shug

Charles, all I can say is your attitude and class are infectious.

You've influenced my way of thinking more than you will ever know and I owe you and the commenters here a big thanks in helping me see things from a more enlightened perspective and in trying to be more open minded.

and I know that I am not alone.

Never alone. *Raises hand*

32 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:32:08pm

re: #20 Racer X

LGF has truly evolved - and for the much much better.

Thanks Charles, for always showing class and sticking to the facts.

true but it's not about LGF...I myself can be pretty unholy at times

33 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:32:13pm

Some of those comments are beyond vile.

*shaking my head*

34 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:32:22pm

re: #6 Joe in Australia

Joe in Australia
(Logged in)
Registered since: Nov 25, 2007 at 7:21 pm
No. of comments posted: 11
No. of links posted: 0

They're kooks because they think it's good to murder people if you disagree with them.

35 Digital Display  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:32:57pm

re: #24 Shug

Nice Shug! Upding

36 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:33:02pm

re: #28 Iron Fist

I'll agree, but I also will note that all barbarians (or barbaric acts) are not motivated by religion.

Agreed.

37 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:33:19pm

re: #34 Last Mohican

They're kooks because they think it's good to murder people if you disagree with them.

Yet didn't they go all apoplectic when the Left was acting the same during the last administration?

38 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:33:30pm

re: #34 Last Mohican

They're kooks because they think it's good to murder people if you disagree with them.

it's more than a disagreement....and you know it

39 Salamantis  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:33:46pm

There aren't just a few krazy kooks advocating or embracing this sort of thing; check my last post on the previous Tiller thread about how in a small to midsized town, two thousand Christians were whipped into a raging mob by incendiary speeches by antiabortion clerics and tried to storm a clinic.

I was inside that clinic.

40 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:33:51pm

re: #24 Shug

Charles, all I can say is your attitude and class are infectious.

You've influenced my way of thinking more than you will ever know and I owe you and the commenters here a big thanks in helping me see things from a more enlightened perspective and in trying to be more open minded.

and I know that I am not alone.

You are definetely not alone.

Charles thanks a million.

41 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:33:55pm

The saddest thing of all is that the pro life movement has been gaining ground, incidents like this and those commenters will set it back.

42 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:34:41pm

re: #30 irongrampa

Guess I'm gonna wait until all the info's available before commenting on this.
Seems like a logical choice.

A man was killed in a House of God, and people are cheering about it. Seems logical to me that it's a disgusting display on the part of these cheerleaders.

43 allan5oh  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:34:55pm

I feel the same way Charles does. It's incredible how many "conservatives" are outraged at the latest impediment the "big bad gubbiment" is throwing into their lives. Yet they have no problem using the same government to push their own morals upon others.

Where would it stop? Just look at the latest craziness from SA:

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

"(CNN) -- Saudi Arabian officials beheaded and then publicly displayed the body of a convicted killer in Riyadh on Friday, an act that prompted a stiff denunciation by a leading human rights monitor."

Further down:

"Police later discovered that Al-Anzi had been previously convicted of other crimes, including possession of pornographic videos and sodomy, the Interior Ministry said."

I wonder what "sodomy" includes.

44 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:36:14pm

Charles saw the right wing crazy coming before just about anyone, and sure enough, here it is.

If we didn't have Charles we would have to invent him, as they say.

45 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:36:15pm

I found this quote from Dr. Tiller in one of the articles which I liked.

"Pre-natal testing without pre-natal choices is medical fraud," Tiller once said.

I don't know much about Dr. Tiller's practice, but from what I've read, his late term abortions were because the fetus was not healthy. And as my own observation, caring for a special needs child is extremely costly and healthcare is not a luxury many have or can afford. Change healthcare and maybe you'll have more people, not just willing, but able to take care of special needs kids.

46 John Neverbend  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:36:29pm

re: #1 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just plain disgusting.

I hate to say this but I am not surprised by the outbursts of kookery.

Ashamed, but not surprised.

Whenever I come across this sort of callousness in the face of such a shocking incident, I always feel both a sense of embarrassment and a sense of disappointment that people could behave that way and not have the decency at the very least to be silent.

47 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:36:46pm

re: #45 American Sabra

I found this quote from Dr. Tiller in one of the articles which I liked.


I don't know much about Dr. Tiller's practice, but from what I've read, his late term abortions were because the fetus was not healthy. And as my own observation, caring for a special needs child is extremely costly and healthcare is not a luxury many have or can afford. Change healthcare and maybe you'll have more people, not just willing, but able to take care of special needs kids.


Eugenics !

48 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:37:01pm

They closed the thread at Lucianne.com

49 Bobblehead  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:37:09pm

One wonders whether we (meaning the population in general) have always had such a large kook fringe(left and right) or whether it has always been there but not so outspoken or obvious before the advent of the internet made it so easy to spew hate and paranoia.
Does that make sense?

50 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:37:16pm

re: #41 Thanos

The saddest thing of all is that the pro life movement has been gaining ground, incidents like this and those commenters will set it back.

It won't. The pro life "movement" is not about persuasion, it is about dogma and control. I add; control of women.

Sound familiar?/

51 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:37:38pm

With fan the fire headlines as these:

Report: George Tiller Shot To Death [Child Murderer Killed At Wichita Church]

George Tiller (Child Murderer) shot to death at Wichita church

How could they expect civil comments?

52 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:38:19pm

re: #50 Naso Tang

It won't. The pro life "movement" is not about persuasion, it is about dogma and control. I add; control of women.

Sound familiar?/

Just a impending theocracy using a different book as the blueprint.

53 Salamantis  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:38:37pm

Here's the post to which I was referring in #39:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

54 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:38:48pm

Thanks Charles, for pointing out crazy wherever it is. I am glad to have a sane site for opinion.

55 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:38:50pm

re: #51 unrealizedviewpoint

With fan the fire headlines as these:

How could they expect civil comments?

They knew, they are of the same filth.

56 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:39:00pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

A man was killed in a House of God, and people are cheering about it. Seems logical to me that it's a disgusting display on the part of these cheerleaders.

these people are on a Holy Jihad, Warriors in the struggle against Satan...read the words...it's far more deranged, the idea that wholesale slaughter seems to appeal to some of them

57 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:39:03pm

re: #43 allan5oh

I feel the same way Charles does. It's incredible how many "conservatives" are outraged at the latest impediment the "big bad gubbiment" is throwing into their lives. Yet they have no problem using the same government to push their own morals upon others.

Where would it stop? Just look at the latest craziness from SA:

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

"(CNN) -- Saudi Arabian officials beheaded and then publicly displayed the body of a convicted killer in Riyadh on Friday, an act that prompted a stiff denunciation by a leading human rights monitor."

Further down:

"Police later discovered that Al-Anzi had been previously convicted of other crimes, including possession of pornographic videos and sodomy, the Interior Ministry said."

I wonder what "sodomy" includes.

I'm not what anyone could call a "fan" of the Saudis or their system of "justice". And the "justice" meted to this criminal was inhumane.

But that particular killer's crimes included the kidnapping, molestation and murder of an 11-year-old boy.

58 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:39:25pm

re: #51 unrealizedviewpoint

With fan the fire headlines as these:

How could they expect civil comments?

Even with civil headlines the kookery is well stocked for disgorgement of hatred.

59 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:40:23pm

re: #56 albusteve

these people are on a Holy Jihad, Warriors in the struggle against Satan...read the words...it's far more deranged, the idea that wholesale slaughter seems to appeal to some of them

The only difference is another holy book is used to justify their blood lust.

60 allan5oh  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:40:28pm

Yes I made sure to include that. He also killed the boys father.

61 MagnaniomousCoward  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:41:03pm

When I heard about this, I thought "how many people are going to justify this as some kind of very-late term abortion, and gloat on the Internet about it?" I'm not surprised, but disappointed.

Off topic:

Norwegian government considers prosecuting Scientology

The Norwegian Ministry of Health and Care Services is considering prosecuting and banning some Scientology practices, in particular the use of the Scientology personality test to sell courses. The move comes after Scientology staff made medical claims to undercover journalists and an MP's daughter killed herself after taking a test.
62 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:42:09pm

The broad brush is painting people ( like me ) who are pro choice but very much against late term infanticide ( as is the ACOG, and the AMA by the way) as theocrats intent on taking over the world.

overkill

63 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:42:15pm

Wanna know the worst part?

Those on the left - and even in the middle - are gonna go "Crap, is that what those people on the right are all about? I don't want anything to do with them."

That broad brush paints both ways.

64 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:42:16pm

re: #49 Bobblehead

One wonders whether we (meaning the population in general) have always had such a large kook fringe(left and right) or whether it has always been there but not so outspoken or obvious before the advent of the internet made it so easy to spew hate and paranoia.
Does that make sense?

Yep, you've hit it. There aren't that many either, they just happen to be loud, obnoxious, and persistent. Kind of like the Phelps family, and Randall Terry for that matter.

65 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:42:35pm

re: #38 albusteve

it's more than a disagreement....and you know it

No, it's not more than a disagreement. It's a disagreement.

What George Tiller was doing was legal, and he felt that it was in fact of positive social value. Many other Americans agree with him. The kooks on the various blogs that Charles has quoted disagree, feeling that Tiller's actions not only were of negative social value, but in fact constituted numerous acts of murder. Many other Americans (who aren't kooks) agree with them on this point, and disagree with Tiller.

If you think someone has committed a crime, you call the police, report them, and hope the legal system achieves justice. If you think that what they've done should be a crime, but isn't, then you work to elect legislators who will make it a crime. If that hasn't yet happened, you can either stick around and try to make it happen, or you're welcome to move to another country that shares your views. You don't go killing people because you believe they've committed a crime that isn't recognized as such by the state.

66 Fenway_Nation  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:42:51pm

Isn't Fred Phelp's church based in Kansas? In the Wichita area?

67 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:43:16pm

re: #61 MagnaniomousCoward

Scientology has buckets of blood on their hands. They have had a significant amount of wrongful death suits against them. They are a dangerous cult. I'm happy for Norway. I wish we'd do the same.

68 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:43:17pm

re: #52 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just a impending theocracy using a different book as the blueprint.

I'll soften, by saying I understand the more simple emotions well. My wife had a first month abortion many years ago; instigated by the "Intelligent Designer", and she still mentions it from time to time.

Neither I nor she understand the so called "pro life" demonstrators (an offensive oxymoron if I ever heard one), except in terms that I don't like to put in print.

69 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:43:56pm

re: #41 Thanos

The saddest thing of all is that the pro life movement has been gaining ground, incidents like this and those commenters will set it back.

Not necessarily. Maybe people won't be that dumb, as to believe this somehow represents anything other than one crazy, evil nut's actions. Whacko's postings aren't the same as whacko's committing murder.

70 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:43:57pm

re: #63 Racer X

Wanna know the worst part?

Those on the left - and even in the middle - are gonna go "Crap, is that what those people on the right are all about? I don't want anything to do with them."

That broad brush paints both ways.

They say it already. Just like you guys call them commies.

71 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:44:16pm

re: #47 Shug

Eugenics !

No, it's not.

72 razorbacker  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:44:34pm

Do not overlook the results of these actions.

Abortion is legal. All you have to do is find a medical professional to preform the procedure. That's not going to be very easy in some locales. No providers.

Now some medical professionals have decided to not preform abortions because of strongly-held moral convictions.

And some medical professionals have decided that they would just as soon not be targeted by people willing to use deadly force to end the practice of abortion.

73 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:45:19pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

A man was killed in a House of God, and people are cheering about it. Seems logical to me that it's a disgusting display on the part of these cheerleaders.

I thought it was out on the sidewalk.

74 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:45:21pm

re: #71 Last Mohican

No, it's not.


It's a pretty slippery slope to do a late term termination because of the dangers of impending "special needs".

if not eugenics, then what do you call it.

75 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:45:25pm

re: #63 Racer X

Wanna know the worst part?

Those on the left - and even in the middle - are gonna go "Crap, is that what those people on the right are all about? I don't want anything to do with them."

That broad brush paints both ways.

It's worse for those of us who consider ourselves pro-life! People will think all pro-lifers support killing doctors.

I don't support forcing this issue. I want women to choose life freely. I don't want it imposed. I want every baby to be wanted and loved. Now people like me are going to be lumped in with whacko murders!

76 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:45:39pm

re: #66 Fenway_Nation

Isn't Fred Phelp's church based in Kansas? In the Wichita area?

Topeka, however Randall Terry's Operation Rescue is based in Wichita, it's the hotbed of national anti abortion activity.

77 amused  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:45:43pm

It seems like the churches would have already invented a special hell rule for people who kill in a church. As a deterrent...

78 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:46:04pm

re: #66 Fenway_Nation

Isn't Fred Phelp's church based in Kansas? In the Wichita area?

Phelps is on Topeka, KS. Ah well .... lol

Phelps is a phenomena all to himself. They hate everyone, equal opportunity haters.

79 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:46:47pm

re: #74 Shug

It's a pretty slippery slope to do a late term termination because of the dangers of impending "special needs".

if not eugenics, then what do you call it.

It most certainly not eugenics. There are people who simply cannot afford to care for a special needs child. It has nothing to do with not wanting that child.

80 irongrampa  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:46:52pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

I have no flipping use for people who engage in such behavior--be very clear about that.

I also will not comment-as I said- until the entire situation is revealed.

81 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:47:01pm

Comments at Stormfront aren't much worse than conservative blogs....

I suppose strangling him, cutting open his skull and then sucking out his brain would have been too complicated to pull off
82 neocon hippie  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:47:10pm

Thanks, Charles, for sticking to your proverbial guns and for keeping LGF sane and rational.

83 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:47:15pm

re: #77 amused

It seems like the churches would have already invented a special hell rule for people who kill in a church. As a deterrent...

Sacrilege seems to fit the bill.

84 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:47:57pm

re: #80 irongrampa

I have no flipping use for people who engage in such behavior--be very clear about that.

I also will not comment-as I said- until the entire situation is revealed.

I'm not sure what situation you're talking about.

85 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:48:07pm

re: #72 razorbacker

So what are you saying there? Terrorism works?

Just in case I"m misreading, please explain a bit.

86 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:48:36pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I'm not sure what situation you're talking about.

So I am not the only one wondering.

87 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:48:54pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

It's worse for those of us who consider ourselves pro-life! People will think all pro-lifers support killing doctors.

I don't support forcing this issue. I want women to choose life freely. I don't want it imposed. I want every baby to be wanted and loved. Now people like me are going to be lumped in with whacko murders!

you are what you are...lumpers have no say over that...they cannot prove you approve of murder...fuck them...controlling what others think and caring is the root of the problem

88 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:49:00pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

It's worse for those of us who consider ourselves pro-life! People will think all pro-lifers support killing doctors.

I don't support forcing this issue. I want women to choose life freely. I don't want it imposed. I want every baby to be wanted and loved. Now people like me are going to be lumped in with whacko murders!

Yes.
I need to stay out of this thread, I think, because I keep seeing posts saying "pro-lifers" this, and "the pro-life movement" that, and I get very close to letting my emotions take over my head.

89 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:49:06pm

re: #67 American Sabra

Scientology has buckets of blood on their hands. They have had a significant amount of wrongful death suits against them. They are a dangerous cult. I'm happy for Norway. I wish we'd do the same.

A lawsuit doesn't make for buckets of blood. Over reaching?

90 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:49:06pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

A man was killed in a House of God, ...

yep, you are right ... Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, Stolz said. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time. ~~ Fox

91 tatterdemalian  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:49:26pm

Yet another reason why justice should be blind, instead of activist... the man who murdered George Tiller should be judged as any other murderer, without painting the crime as somehow "justified" by the actions of the victim.

The left wing so often forgets that there is such a thing as right-wing activism, which not only happily uses the rhetorical gimmicks the left-wing activists invent, but also has the guns to back it up. The real historic power of the KKK laid entirely with their immunity to the law, with biased judges excusing the lynch mobs for their crimes, and if someone who declares that the court's duty is to "redress historic wrongs" instead of judge impartially is added to the highest court of this land, it won't just be civil rights activists who take advantage of the precedent.

92 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:49:36pm

re: #79 American Sabra

It most certainly not eugenics. There are people who simply cannot afford to care for a special needs child. It has nothing to do with not wanting that child.


just a quick question so I can see where you are coming from:

a viable child at 30 weeks gestation can be aborted and this is OK if the mother is poor?

I am not talking about going in at 10 weeks. I am talking specifically about late term terminations, which are only done at a handful of places in America.

this is bordering on eugenics.

if this was acceptable medical practice, it would be done by more than a few zealots

93 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:50:08pm

re: #86 DEZes

So I am not the only one wondering.

What's the short for being bewildered? Me too %-)

94 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:50:19pm

re: #86 DEZes

So I am not the only one wondering.

I will join the head scratching brigade. Someone is being very obtuse.

95 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:50:20pm

re: #75 Sharmuta

It's worse for those of us who consider ourselves pro-life! People will think all pro-lifers support killing doctors.

I don't support forcing this issue. I want women to choose life freely. I don't want it imposed. I want every baby to be wanted and loved. Now people like me are going to be lumped in with whacko murders!

Only by pretty stupid people. Don'tcha think?

96 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:50:23pm

re: #50 Naso Tang

It won't. The pro life "movement" is not about persuasion, it is about dogma and control. I add; control of women.

Sound familiar?/

Naso, I am sure it will come as no surprise to you that I am going to disagree with you.

Is it so difficult for you to believe that for at least SOME of us who are "pro-lifers", it has NOTHING to do with "control of women", and everything to do with a deeply held believe that abortion is wrong?

97 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:50:29pm

re: #89 unrealizedviewpoint

A lawsuit doesn't make for buckets of blood. Over reaching?

Over reaching? No, I don't think so at all. They have been accused of many murders.

98 Macker  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:51:06pm

I'm just glad to hear the Cops got the suspect in custody.

99 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:51:14pm

re: #93 callahan23

What's the short for being bewildered? Me too %-)

The short=WTF. ;)

100 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:51:57pm

re: #74 Shug

It's a pretty slippery slope to do a late term termination because of the dangers of impending "special needs".

if not eugenics, then what do you call it.

Eugenics refers to systematically altering the gene pool of a population, by encouraging the reproduction of people with desirable traits, or discouraging the reproduction of people with undesirable traits.

Abortion of a fetus with abnormalities so severe that the child could not survive to reproduce has no effect on the gene pool. If a pregnant woman decides to do that, or not to do that, the decision is made for other reasons, reasons that one might or might not find morally acceptable.

101 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:52:39pm

re: #88 reine.de.tout

Yes.
I need to stay out of this thread, I think, because I keep seeing posts saying "pro-lifers" this, and "the pro-life movement" that, and I get very close to letting my emotions take over my head.

I understand, but I feel certain folks here at LGF are using the term to describe the extremists. Perhaps they could do the LGF pro-lifers a favor and call them the extremists that they are. I don't think any of them think you or I or any other pro-lifers at LGF agree with these people.

102 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:52:42pm

re: #9 DEZes

Or do they share the same views?

Yeah -- I don't understand why there's not more talk of what's up with those blog owners. What are there views? Do they enjoy supporting this stuff?
Do they enjoy making a living supporting these ideas?

103 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:53:03pm

re: #97 American Sabra

Over reaching? No, I don't think so at all. They have been accused of many murders.

Look up the definition of murder.

104 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:53:14pm

re: #85 Thanos

So what are you saying there? Terrorism works?

Just in case I"m misreading, please explain a bit.

Thanos, I respect you very much and enjoy most of your posts but I do not think that this is on the level of terrorism. I know that a lot of other posters will disagree with me as well but I don't think that this (albeit despicable act) rises to that level. It's a murder by a murderer.

105 irongrampa  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:53:23pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I'm referring to the disgusting cretins who celebrate the death of a human as has been evidenced throughout the internet.

106 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:53:24pm

re: #88 reine.de.tout

Yes.
I need to stay out of this thread, I think, because I keep seeing posts saying "pro-lifers" this, and "the pro-life movement" that, and I get very close to letting my emotions take over my head.

I understand what you say, and sympathize. The solution, perhaps, is to not allow yourself to be labeled by slogans that others have invented.

"Pro Life" is deliberately designed to suggest that anyone else in anti-life.

If you accept that you are sucked in and have nothing more to defend.

107 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:53:47pm

I've added more comments from the KWCH website. Note this one, with Biblical justifications for the murder:

I am astonished at the disconnect between this discussion and the facts necessary to resolve any part of it. It is alleged back and forth whether killing “Tiller the Killer”, as he was called by Operation Rescue 20 years ago, is “Christian”, yet not one Bible quote to settle the question! So here is a private message, only for those of you who actually care about God’s opinion of all this: Pro 24:10 If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small. 11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? Notice that God is talking about rescuing victims of government-protected murder, since ordinary murderers lack the power to kill by a schedule publicly known. Luke 1:41 shows we can respond to God even before birth; Jer 1:5 shows God assigns missions to us even before conception; Psalm 139:13-16 shows personality existing at conception; Jer 32:35 shows child murder as so unthinkable that not even God thought of it! So there you have it: if you still want to call God unjust or bigoted compared with your more highly evolved self, keep shooting off your mouth at Him. Even though some of your barbs will hit me, since I am standing with God as well as I can, it is safer here than there. Dave Leach, Des Moines

108 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:54:06pm

re: #56 albusteve

these people are on a Holy Jihad, Warriors in the struggle against Satan...read the words...it's far more deranged, the idea that wholesale slaughter seems to appeal to some of them

Whenever they write "Satan" I hear it in the voice of The Church Lady.

Isn't Fred Phelp's church based in Kansas? In the Wichita area?

I think so. And so are a lot of Creat-ins.

Something's the matter with Kansas. Too much fertilizer in the runoff, maybe.

109 Kragar  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:54:37pm

The kind of man who shot this doctor is the same kind of man who would throw acid in a schoolgirl's face or blow up a school because it was filled with the "wrong people". The only difference between this murderer and a jihadi was upbringing. They are both missing something which made them human.

110 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:54:47pm

re: #97 American Sabra

Over reaching? No, I don't think so at all. They have been accused of many murders.

Murders? Linky?

I know several former Scientologists and they barely got out with any of their money. Yes Scientology is about grabbing your money. They are extremely aggressive in stealing your cash but I have not heard of the violence.

111 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:55:34pm

re: #107 Charles

I've added more comments from the KWCH website. Note this one, with Biblical justifications for the murder:

Jihadis use the Koran for justifying murdering non-believers, so not a surprise the Bible is used in the same vile way.

112 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:55:47pm

re: #100 Last Mohican

Eugenics refers to systematically altering the gene pool of a population, by encouraging the reproduction of people with desirable traits, or discouraging the reproduction of people with undesirable traits.

Abortion of a fetus with abnormalities so severe that the child could not survive to reproduce has no effect on the gene pool. If a pregnant woman decides to do that, or not to do that, the decision is made for other reasons, reasons that one might or might not find morally acceptable.


the ACOG and the AMA have both stated that there are virtually no circumstances where this procedure is indicated

Which is why virtually nobody is doing it.

113 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:55:49pm

re: #105 irongrampa

I'm referring to the disgusting cretins who celebrate the death of a human as has been evidenced throughout the internet.

OK....? I'm still not sure what is causing you to withhold your opinion on that. Charles has provided some examples, complete with links. I'm sure you can find many others on your own.

114 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:56:25pm

re: #102 Fearless Fred

Yeah -- I don't understand why there's not more talk of what's up with those blog owners. What are there views? Do they enjoy supporting this stuff?
Do they enjoy making a living supporting these ideas?

Its possible that the blog owners have no opinion either way and are only interested in site traffic.
On the other hand, they have the same opinions.
In either case, they are morally bankrupt.

115 wiffersnapper  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:56:53pm

And people were wondering why Napolitano was labeling people as right wing extremists. Now we know why.

116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:56:55pm

See why I don't go to other sites?

117 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:57:22pm

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

See why I don't go to other sites?

I thought it's because the food wasn;'t as good as it is here !

118 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:57:30pm

re: #109 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

The kind of man who shot this doctor is the same kind of man who would throw acid in a schoolgirl's face or blow up a school because it was filled with the "wrong people". The only difference between this murderer and a jihadi was upbringing. They are both missing something which made them human.

And a Jihadi wouldn't run away.

119 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:57:48pm

in ten years we won't recognize the 1st Amendment....rogue churches advocating murder of Satans captains will have to be shut down...bet me

120 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:57:50pm
121 razorbacker  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:57:54pm

re: #85 Thanos

So what are you saying there? Terrorism works?

Just in case I"m misreading, please explain a bit.

It seems to work pretty well, especially over enough time.

If you do not hunt down terrorists, they will continue to terrorise.

And if I personally were setting up a medical practice, I'd look long and hard before I'd willingly place my employees and maybe family in danger. I suspect some doctors have made the same calculation.

Just as a doctor working on medical research involving animal experimentation has to be aware of the hazards, so too must abortion providers. Please do not attempt to use this statement as some type of humans-and-animals-are-the-same-in-Gaia's-eyes comment. If you've read my posts during the October through January seasons you will of course know better.

I'm just saying that if abortion is legal, but no doctor is willing to abort, then the question is moot.

122 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:57:55pm

Haven't seen one of these in a while.

123 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:58:03pm

re: #106 Naso Tang

I understand what you say, and sympathize. The solution, perhaps, is to not allow yourself to be labeled by slogans that others have invented.

"Pro Life" is deliberately designed to suggest that anyone else in anti-life.

If you accept that you are sucked in and have nothing more to defend.

"Pro-Life" is designed to indicate that we stand FOR something, rather than against something.

124 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:58:12pm

re: #118 jones

And a Jihadi wouldn't run away.

Hard to run away when you've blown off your own legs!

125 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:58:40pm

re: #114 DEZes

Its possible that the blog owners have no opinion either way and are only interested in site traffic.
On the other hand, they have the same opinions.
In either case, they are morally bankrupt.

Allowing it for the traffic, or allowing it because they are fellow believers.

What a Hobson's Choice. *SPIT*

126 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:58:56pm

re: #92 Shug

just a quick question so I can see where you are coming from:

a viable child at 30 weeks gestation can be aborted and this is OK if the mother is poor?

I am not talking about going in at 10 weeks. I am talking specifically about late term terminations, which are only done at a handful of places in America.

this is bordering on eugenics.

if this was acceptable medical practice, it would be done by more than a few zealots

I don't know the law in all states about what is considered late term. My entire view in general is that if it is allowed in the state, it's a decision between a woman and her doctor and that's really about it.

A child with significant birth defects would probably be noticed way before 7 plus months. However, if something happens later in the pregnancy that will endanger the mother, or endanger her during child birth, meaning a threat to her life, than yes, abortion should be legal at any point. I don't know the circumstances surrounding Dr. Tiller's late term abortions to be able to comment about it.

127 Aye Pod  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:58:56pm

re: #107 Charles

I've added more comments from the KWCH website. Note this one, with Biblical justifications for the murder:

They are producing fatwas now. Great.

128 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:58:56pm

I am sorry he was murdered. What he was doing was often illegal, and I would have preferred he faced justice.

I am sorry that someone chose to kill him. It is wrong, and a horrible stain, but I can see how that person might have thought it was the right choice.

It wasn't and now the killer will pay a price to civilized society, and beyond.

129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:59:12pm

re: #117 sattv4u2

Dunno. Still looking for a piece of cake.

130 Salamantis  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:59:28pm

re: #118 jones

And a Jihadi wouldn't run away.

Unless he wanted to live to kill other infidels. I'm sure that abortion doctors nationwide are breathing a sigh of relief; this guy had crossed the homicide Rubicon, and most probably wished to make the most of it.

131 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:59:38pm

re: #100 Last Mohican

Eugenics refers to systematically altering the gene pool of a population, by encouraging the reproduction of people with desirable traits, or discouraging the reproduction of people with undesirable traits.

Abortion of a fetus with abnormalities so severe that the child could not survive to reproduce has no effect on the gene pool. If a pregnant woman decides to do that, or not to do that, the decision is made for other reasons, reasons that one might or might not find morally acceptable.

Thanks.

132 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 4:59:39pm

re: #122 Racer X

Haven't seen one of these in a while.

That is because the picture is from September 1999.

133 irongrampa  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:00:11pm

re: #113 Sharmuta

Who the individual is, and why he did what he's alleged to have done, mostly. I just get a bad feeling about what may transpire from it. Nothing good from the pro-life side, I fear.

134 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:00:48pm

re: #132 FurryOldGuyJeans

When I was a kid, the sun had flares! And we liked them, dammit!

135 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:00:58pm

re: #128 Buck

Just who was doing the illegal act? Abortion is not illegal here in the US, murder is.

136 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:01:01pm

re: #109 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

The kind of man who shot this doctor is the same kind of man who would throw acid in a schoolgirl's face or blow up a school because it was filled with the "wrong people". The only difference between this murderer and a jihadi was upbringing. They are both missing something which made them human.

Oh, they are human all right. Just not particularly civilized.

137 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:01:07pm

re: #132 FurryOldGuyJeans

That is because the picture is from September 1999.

Yep.

"Recently, our Sun has been unusually quiet".

138 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:01:09pm

re: #128 Buck

What he was doing was often illegal


Are you giving a legal opinion?

139 Steffan  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:01:31pm

re: #19 Charles

It's reminiscent of what the Huffington Post does with threads about Dick Cheney.

Not reminiscent. It is exactly what the Huffington Post (as James Taranto calls it) does with threads about anything even remotely right-leaning, much less Darth Cheney.

/Hey, I like and admire him. According to them, I should be burned at the stake.

140 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:01:43pm

re: #122 Racer X

Haven't seen one of these in a while.

The daily updated sun picture.

141 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:01:56pm

re: #116 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

See why I don't go to other sites?

Too hard to clink on other site links? ;)

142 MrPaulRevere  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:02:14pm

Charles, if you didn't know already, the suspect was posting on the Operation Rescue website...[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

143 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:02:29pm

re: #132 FurryOldGuyJeans

That is because the picture is from September 1999.

APOD is the 1st site I visit every day.
Now before anyone starts tossing stones, if I hit LGF first, I would never make it to APOD. ;)

144 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:02:40pm

I'd like to know where these activists are when it's born little children being hurt by the law. Where are they protesting against child molesters and child rapists? Where are they spearheading a movement to get the laws changed as to keep these molesters in jail where they belong? I don't see them protesting outside of jails when these monsters get released. Strikes me as odd.

145 gtrs  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:02:50pm

re: #104 VegasRick how can it not be?

146 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:02:54pm

re: #133 irongrampa

Who the individual is, and why he did what he's alleged to have done, mostly. I just get a bad feeling about what may transpire from it. Nothing good from the pro-life side, I fear.

My opinion would be that he's a lonewolf not unlike was described in the controversial HSA report. Again, that's just my opinion or semi-educated guess. I wouldn't be surprised if HSA gets involved with the investigation in addition to the FBI.

147 irongrampa  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:03:03pm

re: #133 irongrampa

Crap--"from" in that comment should have been written as "for".

148 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:03:49pm

re: #120 Iron Fist

As I've said before, were I someone with Downs Syndrome or the like I would be very alarmed at the people on the Left who say that I shouldn't have been allowed to be born. It makes me wonder. As the human genome mapping goes on it will become possible to test for other genetic diseases such as diabetes, or possibly even personality traits that could lend one to be depressive or manic or even possibly murder (they really are unsure what impact, if any, genetics has on personality and personality disorders). Should people with these (and others) not be permitted to be born? What about abortions to select the sex of the child? This isn't a problem so much in the United States, but it has reached epidemic proportions in China.

And India.

149 Teh Flowah  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:03:55pm

NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!

150 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:04:10pm

re: #122 Racer X

Haven't seen one of these in a while.

"That's not the sun I knew'

//channeling the One !

151 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:04:34pm

re: #144 Sharmuta

I'd like to know where these activists are when it's born little children being hurt by the law. Where are they protesting against child molesters and child rapists? Where are they spearheading a movement to get the laws changed as to keep these molesters in jail where they belong? I don't see them protesting outside of jails when these monsters get released. Strikes me as odd.

they are on a mission...they are focused on one thing

152 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:04:55pm

re: #142 MrPaulRevere

Charles, if you didn't know already, the suspect was posting on the Operation Rescue website...[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

That's the IP address of the guy who defaced Wikipedia?

153 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:04:57pm

re: #142 MrPaulRevere

Charles, if you didn't know already, the suspect was posting on the Operation Rescue website...[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

Do we know that was the suspect who posted that?

Click here to view our hot new video about abortionist Tiller!

There's something about that particular link that strikes me as weird and disturbing. I would think that most pro-life activists would see abortion as something somber and saddening, not an exciting opportunity to make a "hot new video" about.

154 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:05:06pm

re: #135 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just who was doing the illegal act? Abortion is not illegal here in the US, murder is.

Third term abortions are illegal, unless extreme circumstance. Tiller was performing third term abortions without getting consensus from other doctors, and using headaches, and depression as circumstance.

155 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:05:06pm

re: #142 MrPaulRevere

Charles, if you didn't know already, the suspect was posting on the Operation Rescue website...[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

Yowza!

156 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:05:44pm

re: #140 callahan23

The daily updated sun picture.

Nice - thanks!

The Sunspot Cycle

157 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:05:57pm

re: #153 Last Mohican

His post was a few days ago so it's most likely real.

158 MrPaulRevere  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:06:00pm

This might be the suspects facebook page, notice he's a fan of Glen Beck...[Link: www.facebook.com...]

159 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:06:32pm

re: #96 reine.de.tout

Naso, I am sure it will come as no surprise to you that I am going to disagree with you.

Is it so difficult for you to believe that for at least SOME of us who are "pro-lifers", it has NOTHING to do with "control of women", and everything to do with a deeply held believe that abortion is wrong?

"SOME of you", who hold beliefs, and emotions, in that line would be better served if you disassociated yourselves with the "pro-life" label and stopped suggesting that any disagreement was akin to the anti Christ.

I am not "in favor" of abortion, but I am in favor of recognizing that life is more than a potential life and the complexities of individual circumstance are more than any simplistic religious dogma can encompass; and I do mean "simplistic" when it comes to the "pro-life" label.

I respect you, and I like you, but if I disagree with you I have to say so.

160 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:06:48pm

makes me wanna smoke...it does

161 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:07:03pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

I understand, but I feel certain folks here at LGF are using the term to describe the extremists. Perhaps they could do the LGF pro-lifers a favor and call them the extremists that they are. I don't think any of them think you or I or any other pro-lifers at LGF agree with these people.

But I'm an 'extremist' ... I'm a radical liberal, in the classical sense. These commenters today at certain blog-sites aren't just extremist, there's nothing wrong with being extreme in your views, they're hateful - and seem to support committing physical harm - even murder - based upon that hate.

162 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:07:18pm

re: #127 Jimmah

They are producing fatwas now. Great.

re: #157 Killgore Trout

His post was a few days ago so it's most likely real.

The one I see is 2007:

Scott Roeder Says:
May 19th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp.
Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.

163 MrPaulRevere  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:07:30pm

re: #152 Charles

No, I googled the suspects name and found that at Democrat Underground

164 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:07:46pm

74.125.47.132 = [ yw-in-f132.google.com ]

(Asked whois.arin.net:43 about +74.125.47.132)

OrgName: Google Inc.
OrgID: GOGL
Address: 1600 Amphitheatre Parkway
City: Mountain View
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 94043
Country: US
NetRange: 74.125.0.0 - 74.125.255.255
CIDR: 74.125.0.0/16
NetName: GOOGLE
NetHandle: NET-74-125-0-0-1
Parent: NET-74-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: NS1.GOOGLE.COM
NameServer: NS2.GOOGLE.COM
NameServer: NS3.GOOGLE.COM
NameServer: NS4.GOOGLE.COM
Comment:
RegDate: 2007-03-13
Updated: 2007-05-22
OrgTechHandle: ZG39-ARIN
OrgTechName: Google Inc.
OrgTechPhone: [no phone numbers allowed]
OrgTechEmail: arin-contact@google.com

165 irongrampa  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:07:57pm

Think it's time to go find the grandkids and give 'em a hug.


Have the best day possible, good people.

166 jacksontn  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:08:07pm

re: #158 MrPaulRevere

This might be the suspects facebook page, notice he's a fan of Glen Beck...[Link: www.facebook.com...]

MPR ... I would be careful doing that ... I remember during the campaign a woman's facebook or something like that was posted can't remember why ... I think it was a voice over thing ... it turned out not to be the person ... and I am sure it caused problems for her ... have they posted a photo of the guy yet? ...

167 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:08:13pm

I think that's just the Google cache address.

168 Aye Pod  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:08:15pm

OT: Pamela Geller is attacking the State department for 'insulting Islam' by hosting a gay pride night in Baghdad.

In an almost incomprehensible move and a complete and utter act of dangerous stupidity, the State department is hosting a gay pride party in Baghdad. In insulting Islam, they are putting American soldiers in harm's way.

This is the same person who a few days ago called Rabbi Avi Weiss a 'kapo' for making a distinction between Islamic terrorists and ordinary muslims and failing to declare war on the entire Islamic world.

169 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:08:22pm

re: #140 callahan23

The daily updated sun picture.

Sweet, thanks for pointing me there.

170 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:08:55pm

Disregard #164.

171 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:08:56pm

Operation rescue has already pulled the webpage.

172 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:08:59pm

re: #153 Last Mohican

There's something about that particular link that strikes me as weird and disturbing. I would think that most pro-life activists would see abortion as something somber and saddening, not an exciting opportunity to make a "hot new video" about.

The Jihadist model holds here. Think of the way that videos of Americans and Israelis committing "atrocities" is like porn for the terrorists... It's a recruiting (read: sales) tool.

Like I said... Same shit, different book.

173 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:09:02pm

re: #154 Buck

Third term abortions are illegal, unless extreme circumstance. Tiller was performing third term abortions without getting consensus from other doctors, and using headaches, and depression as circumstance.

He was using a doctor within his own practice to certify the need for the late term abortion. The law requires a signoff from an independent doc. The jury found him not guilty though.

174 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:09:07pm

re: #121 razorbacker

So, what do you think it would take to make it so "no doctor would be willing to abort?"

175 MrPaulRevere  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:09:16pm

re: #166 jacksontn

I know, I know, I thought before posting but I watched the video of the bust, there is a resemblence.

176 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:09:18pm

re: #168 Jimmah

Unbelievable.

177 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:09:27pm

re: #166 jacksontn

Fox is saying he is from Merrimam Kansas

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

178 VegasRick  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:09:28pm

re: #145 gtrs

how can it not be?

You tell me. Is a man that kills his wife or child a terrorist or a cold blooded sick murderer? Or are we going to start calling all murderers terrorists? I am pretty sure that the person they killed was very terrorized during the act.

179 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:09:29pm

Wow.

Here I was all thinking Avi Lewis was off his rocker during his interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali when he says, "They bomb abortion clinics...".

The mask has slipped on this one and the face I am seeing isn't pretty. These circus clowns are capable of bad things I am sorry to say.

180 MrPaulRevere  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:10:10pm

re: #167 Gus 802

Yes, its just the cache.

181 Photios  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:10:28pm

Thank you for your level head, Charles. Although I have not participated in your comments sections as I used to years ago, I still, and have always, read you every day.

Those of us who stand against abortion (for those who do not know me, I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian) because of our belief that it is an innocent human life being taken, cannot then turn around and justify the murder of another, even the abortionist. We are not pacifists, or against capital punishment, but we forgive and we submit to our rulers. We follow the law and try to ensure that due process under the law occurs.

Shame on those who call themselves Christian and then justify the killing of another outside of the sanction of the law.

Again, thank you Charles. You are tempting me to begin participating again.

+Photi

182 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:10:30pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

Operation rescue has already pulled the webpage.

Theocracy can do Soviet-style historical revision when it suits their purposes.

183 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:10:51pm

re: #162 jones

Ah, That's 2007. I didn't catch that.

184 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:11:07pm

re: #168 Jimmah

OT: Pamela Geller is attacking the State department for 'insulting Islam' by hosting a gay pride night in Baghdad.

This is the same person who a few days ago called Rabbi Avi Weiss a 'kapo' for making a distinction between Islamic terrorists and ordinary muslims and failing to declare war on the entire Islamic world.

Thats more potent than a Valium.

185 jayzee  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:11:20pm

I remember as a kid, my father telling me not to tell ANYONE that he did abortions (as he was an OB/GYN) as this is what he feared.
He also told me the story of a pregnant woman that brought a pregnant friend along to the clinic for support while she got an abortion. A protester hit the woman that wanted to keep her pregnancy and she miscarried.

Anyway, my father did regret the way abortions were being used a birth control and was concerned especially over late term ones. I think his feelings were very indicative of the way most Americans feel about this issue. There is a lot of gray here. The extremists on either side of the debate are well, extreme. Those that support what happened to Tiller, are animals.

186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:11:33pm

re: #128 Buck

I am sorry that someone chose to kill him. It is wrong, and a horrible stain, but I can see how that person might have thought it was the right choice.

You think that if the person believes that the other person is doing wrong, they have made the right choice if they KILL the other person? Are you nuts?

187 MacDuff  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:11:58pm

Aren't we talking about a MURDER? Whatever this man's beliefs, are what led him to this dastardly act is but a side show. This isn't about "pro-choice" and "pro-life", it's about "pro-murder" and "anti-murder". To see it as anything else, not only diminishes the monstrousness of the CRIME, but also the value of life itself.

I'm pro-life, but lamenting about how this "hurts the cause" tends to diminish this man's life and conveys the image of beingselectively pro-life.

If we are to exercise our humanity, then we should exercise it toward the whole of humanity. To do otherwise displays a level of hypocrisy and selectivity that makes the term "pro-life" utterly meaningless.

Either we have honor, or we do not. There is no middle ground.

188 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:12:03pm

re: #110 Racer X

Murders? Linky?

I know several former Scientologists and they barely got out with any of their money. Yes Scientology is about grabbing your money. They are extremely aggressive in stealing your cash but I have not heard of the violence.

Lisa McPherson, denied medical care

Wrongful death in Tampa

There have also been a number of suicides that family members blame on the church. There are also significant cases of child abuse. If you google "child abuse" and "scientology" you'll find a number of links.

Most people in Scientology are not movie stars.

189 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:12:21pm

re: #159 Naso Tang

"SOME of you", who hold beliefs, and emotions, in that line would be better served if you disassociated yourselves with the "pro-life" label and stopped suggesting that any disagreement was akin to the anti Christ.

Wasn't aware that I had suggested disagreement was akin to the anti-Christ.

I am not "in favor" of abortion, but I am in favor of recognizing that life is more than a potential life and the complexities of individual circumstance are more than any simplistic religious dogma can encompass; and I do mean "simplistic" when it comes to the "pro-life" label.


Ah, but for me, this is a very simple issue. And I won't discuss further here, because any discussion would probably come very close to "proselytization".

I respect you, and I like you, but if I disagree with you I have to say so.


I would expect nothing less.

190 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:12:51pm

re: #186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You think that if the person believes that the other person is doing wrong, they have made the right choice if they KILL the other person? Are you nuts?

yes...in their mind certainly

191 Sharmuta  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:02pm

re: #185 jayzee

A protester hit the woman that wanted to keep her pregnancy and she miscarried.

Horrible! And that's the most I'm going to say, as anything more would be deletable.

192 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:06pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

Yowza!


May 19th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp.
Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.

193 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:14pm

re: #186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You think that if the person believes that the other person is doing wrong, they have made the right choice if they KILL the other person? Are you nuts?

It's notable that a lot of people who express this view quite likely see themselves as law-abiding citizens.

194 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:24pm

re: #186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You think that if the person believes that the other person is doing wrong, they have made the right choice if they KILL the other person? Are you nuts?

I didn't say that at all.... I said I can how they could THINK THAT, but I go on to say that it is wrong to think that.

I am very clear in my post.

195 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:27pm

re: #169 DEZes

Sweet, thanks for pointing me there.

That is often my first site I visit. Like weather-channel is for some very exciting. ;-)

196 MandyManners  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:35pm

re: #142 MrPaulRevere

Charles, if you didn't know already, the suspect was posting on the Operation Rescue website...[Link: 74.125.47.132...]

Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.

Looks like he let it fester for two years.

197 gtrs  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:55pm

re: #128 Buck
illegal? how? explain this nonsense please

198 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:13:58pm

re: #194 Buck

I didn't say that at all.... I said I can how they could THINK THAT, but I go on to say that it is wrong to think that.

I am very clear in my post.

you are...he misread it

199 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:14:07pm

re: #107 Charles

I've added more comments from the KWCH website. Note this one, with Biblical justifications for the murder:

"Biblical justifications for the murder" ? Did you mean an attempt to justify with scripture? I doubt you really mean he succeeded in finding Biblical justifications.

200 Karridine  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:14:30pm

The rational soul of a human is associated with its material body...

...at the moment of conception.

201 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:14:43pm

re: #199 Fearless Fred

"Biblical justifications for the murder" ? Did you mean an attempt to justify with scripture? I doubt you really mean he succeeded in finding Biblical justifications.

In his mind, is there a difference?

202 Last Mohican  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:14:51pm

re: #185 jayzee

Very well stated. Thank you.

203 razorbacker  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:14:53pm

re: #174 Thanos

So, what do you think it would take to make it so "no doctor would be willing to abort?"

I don't know what the tipping point would be. I know from personal experience that even before Roe v Wade abortions were available, for a price. My then-girlfriend-now-wife said no.

204 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:15:17pm

re: #195 callahan23

That is often my first site I visit. Like weather-channel is for some very exciting. ;-)

I have a solar filter for my small scope, but not my 12 inch.
Oh well.

205 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:15:18pm

re: #171 Killgore Trout

Operation rescue has already pulled the webpage.

Interesting.

Their website is still down. I wonder if they're scrubbing their servers? Try these links and click on cache:

"george tiller" site:operationrescue.org

206 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:15:18pm

re: #45 American Sabra

I found this quote from Dr. Tiller in one of the articles which I liked.

I don't know much about Dr. Tiller's practice, but from what I've read, his late term abortions were because the fetus was not healthy. And as my own observation, caring for a special needs child is extremely costly and healthcare is not a luxury many have or can afford. Change healthcare and maybe you'll have more people, not just willing, but able to take care of special needs kids.

I'm stepping in here in dangerous waters, but you are also making unsupported statements. What would you do with, say a late term fetus that ultrasound discovered had nothing but fluids for a brain, but a functioning brain stem that kept a heart beating, and quite possibly other gross abnormalities that threatened the life or health of the mother, or perhaps not the latter?

Now I don't know the statistics anymore than you appear to, but I am confident that I am not making up a once in a lifetime occurrence, and I have read of other situations that I would not like to have to describe in print.

Before Tiller is condemned here, even if by insinuation, I ask that you do the research first.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:15:28pm

re: #199 Fearless Fred

re: #201 sattv4u2

In his mind, is there a difference?

"his" NOT being Charles's, btw. "his" bieng the poster

208 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:15:56pm

And anyway, if Dr. Tiller was guilty of doing illegal abortions, than you file suit against the man and take him to court. You do not carry out vigilante justice on your own.

209 Thoughtful  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:16:12pm

I'm Catholic, and strongly pro-life. The criminal who committed the murder of Dr. Tiller does not understand what pro-life means. Archbishop Bernadine of Chicago described it best, as a "seamless garment". This includes standing up for the life of the unborn, the life of the convicted criminal, and the life of the abortion doctor.

This criminal, and the commenters that support him have done untold damage to the Catholic pro-life community.

210 The Shadow Do  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:16:15pm

re: #168 Jimmah

OT: Pamela Geller is attacking the State department for 'insulting Islam' by hosting a gay pride night in Baghdad.

This is the same person who a few days ago called Rabbi Avi Weiss a 'kapo' for making a distinction between Islamic terrorists and ordinary muslims and failing to declare war on the entire Islamic world.

The woman will trot out anything to stay in the limelight. A real head case.

211 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:16:47pm

re: #181 Photios

Will a ding help lure you back? What re: #194 Buck

Okay, must have mis-read it. As long as we both agree the guy is a nutjob.

212 Killgore Trout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:16:59pm

according to the freepers....

Not the first arrest for Tiller's Killer?

July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.

213 Steffan  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:17:01pm

re: #110 Racer X

Murders? Linky?

I know several former Scientologists and they barely got out with any of their money. Yes Scientology is about grabbing your money. They are extremely aggressive in stealing your cash but I have not heard of the violence.

Scientologists, TTBOMK, are more interested in your money than in pursuing heretics.

The world headquarters of Scientology is three miles from where I sit. They keep themselves to themselves, and occasionally surface for the odd civic event (I saw a picture of Karen Black and the mayor of San Jacinto, CA, a few years ago.) They also offer their sound stage at Golden Era Productions (Google it!) to the local community -- IIRC, they offered to host the Hemet (CA) High School band a couple of years or so ago. They even have a golf course.

They keep a very low profile here. I have not seen or heard of any violence attributable to them.

214 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:17:02pm

Here's something positive to do for life:
[Link: waiting-children.adoption.com...]

215 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:17:08pm

re: #144 Sharmuta

I'd like to know where these activists are when it's born little children being hurt by the law. Where are they protesting against child molesters and child rapists? Where are they spearheading a movement to get the laws changed as to keep these molesters in jail where they belong? I don't see them protesting outside of jails when these monsters get released. Strikes me as odd.

Yes, and why on earth don't they support govt funding for pre- and post-natal care for poor women/families? They're not pro-life at all, they're pro-birth because once the baby is delivered, they're outta there!

216 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:17:42pm

re: #210 The Shadow Do

The woman will trot out anything to stay in the limelight. A real head case.

I wish people here would ignore her, quit highlighting her outrageous posts an activities

217 Randall Gross  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:18:32pm

re: #208 American Sabra

And anyway, if Dr. Tiller was guilty of doing illegal abortions, than you file suit against the man and take him to court. You do not carry out vigilante justice on your own.

They did file suit, he was found not guilty by a jury.

218 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:18:42pm

re: #186 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You think that if the person believes that the other person is doing wrong, they have made the right choice if they KILL the other person? Are you nuts?

I downdinged Bucks comment for not being clear. Very confusing! He said:

I am sorry that someone chose to kill him. It is wrong, and a horrible stain, but I can see how that person might have thought it was the right choice.

He wasn't condoning the action, he said he understood how one might have come to the conclusion the action was warranted.

219 jones  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:18:56pm

July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.

[Link: www.adl.org...]

220 jvic  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:18:59pm

It looks like activist creationism is just the tip of an iceberg.

I am not accusing creationists of wanting to murder abortion providers. I am suspecting that there is more bad stuff correlated with the theocratic right than has come to light so far.

When Bush/Rove were in the White House and /DeLay/Lott ran Congress, theocratic fanatics could believe that time was on their side. But now...

221 Aye Pod  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:19:06pm

re: #176 Sharmuta

Unbelievable.

Isn't it? It amazes me that someone with such a solid track record of blatant stupidity can manage to break new ground on the idiocy front so regularly.

222 jayzee  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:19:14pm

re: #191 Sharmuta

I know. And that is what extremism leads to. The irony is of course, that I am sure this savage was very relieved that he could not be charged for murdering the unborn child.

223 gtrs  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:19:40pm

re: #154 Buck was he charged? this about law & order, not policy issues

224 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:20:01pm

re: #218 unrealizedviewpoint

He wasn't condoning the action, he said he understood how one might have come to the conclusion the action was warranted.

it was crystal clear to me...what's with all the dings?....some sort of power?

225 Gus  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:20:03pm

re: #212 Killgore Trout

according to the freepers....

Not the first arrest for Tiller's Killer?

Any DOB?

226 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:20:44pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

"Pro-Life" is designed to indicate that we stand FOR something, rather than against something.

I'm sorry, I'm disappointed.

227 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:20:51pm
228 sattv4u2  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:20:56pm

re: #212 Killgore Trout

re: #219 jones

HOLD THE WEDDING!
violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.

WTF is with an employer that hires a guy without getting an SS #. Remember, we're talking about a middle aged white male, NOT a teenager looking to make some cash under the table!

229 Bobblehead  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:20:58pm

re: #64 Thanos

Yep, you've hit it. There aren't that many either, they just happen to be loud, obnoxious, and persistent. Kind of like the Phelps family, and Randall Terry for that matter.

Technology has given us wonders that I could never have imagined when I was a kid. That same technology has also resulted in a more solitary daily existence for most Americans. When I was young I remember busy evenings out-of-doors, parents and children interacting with their neighbors all up and down the street. You hardly see that anymore. Most people know their neighbors by sight but not much else.I do believe the human animal was not meant for a totally solitary existence with minimal social interaction. It's not healthy for the psyche. The human mind focuses inward when not given enough stimulation. I sometimes think that is why this proliferation of craziness is related to this inward struggle of the mind to occupy itself.
Again, does this make any sense or ring any bells with anyone out there?

230 callahan23  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:21:24pm

re: #204 DEZes

I have a solar filter for my small scope, but not my 12 inch.
Oh well.

If you are interested in astronomy you might know of Stellarium, which is a free software planetarium.
Very nifty.

231 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:22:29pm

re: #224 albusteve

it was crystal clear to me...what's with all the dings?....some sort of power?

I don't understand ?

232 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:22:54pm

re: #226 Naso Tang

I'm sorry, I'm disappointed.

Honestly, your disappointment is not something that will have any adverse effect on my life whatsoever.

233 Salamantis  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:23:09pm

re: #200 Karridine

The rational soul of a human is associated with its material body...

...at the moment of conception.

That is a religious belief, and not an empirical science finding, nor is it shared by all religious faiths. And since our country is not a theocracy, but a secular constitutional democratic republic that refuses to entangle religion and state, it shouldn't be in the business of legislating sectarian religious beliefs into civil or criminal law.

234 DEZes  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:23:54pm

re: #230 callahan23

If you are interested in astronomy you might know of Stellarium, which is a free software planetarium.
Very nifty.

I dont get to spend much time at it anymore, but still have the fever, ;)

235 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:24:18pm

re: #206 Naso Tang

I'm stepping in here in dangerous waters, but you are also making unsupported statements. What would you do with, say a late term fetus that ultrasound discovered had nothing but fluids for a brain, but a functioning brain stem that kept a heart beating, and quite possibly other gross abnormalities that threatened the life or health of the mother, or perhaps not the latter?

Now I don't know the statistics anymore than you appear to, but I am confident that I am not making up a once in a lifetime occurrence, and I have read of other situations that I would not like to have to describe in print.

Before Tiller is condemned here, even if by insinuation, I ask that you do the research first.

I don't think my statements are unsupported. There are many women who cannot care for a special needs child who chose to abort. For many reasons. I think Last Mohican said it far better than myself concerning the situation you described.

The quote I posted from Tiller was about pre-natal testing. Why even bother then? You only do these tests to see if the child is ok. If abortion is illegal, why do them?

Like you say, there are a number of circumstances here and lots of gray areas and reasons why women want to abort. I know it sounds like a cop out, but really for me it only has to do with 1) the law; 2) the woman's choice with the help of her doctor.

236 Fearless Fred  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:24:20pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

re: #201 sattv4u2

"his" NOT being Charles's, btw. "his" bieng the poster

No difference. No ... mental sickness I guess. I just want to be careful about letting people believe somehow the Bible may justify today's murder.

237 jayzee  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:24:47pm

re: #209 Thoughtful

I respect your position. I understand that different faiths have a different perspective on this subject.

In my opinion, what will eventually happen, is that states will eventually make laws (like they do with gun control) around various aspects of abortions. Much of this will be based upon the viability of the unborn child. I think the pro choice folk that reject this, are no different that those who reject gun control laws, or seat belt laws etc. We all have laws placed on us that limit what we can do.

238 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:25:55pm
239 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:26:01pm

re: #107 Charles

I've added more comments from the KWCH website. Note this one, with Biblical justifications for the murder:

Most of these biblical citations used to allege that murder is a capital sin are from the old testament (i.e. Hebrew Torah).

Strange, I have never heard of religious jews bumping off abortion docs....I wonder why?

240 albusteve  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:26:10pm

re: #231 unrealizedviewpoint

I don't understand ?

his post was clearly stated as you pointed out....reread it

241 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:26:21pm

re: #189 reine.de.tout

Ah, but for me, this is a very simple issue. And I won't discuss further here, because any discussion would probably come very close to "proselytization".

Here we can agree. I trust you have noticed I don't use this place to explain why I call myself an atheist?

I still owe you a recipe. Coming soon.

:D

242 abbyadams  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:26:22pm

I am ashamed to share the planet with these people. And the label homo sapiens. That being said, I found this link on another blog; it goes to a Kansas Farmer's Forum, and this person was moved to share a story about Tiller. I am not presenting this with any agenda, I just thought it was interesting.
Link here

Good night to all.

243 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:26:43pm

re: #213 Steffan

Scientologists, TTBOMK, are more interested in your money than in pursuing heretics.

The world headquarters of Scientology is three miles from where I sit. They keep themselves to themselves, and occasionally surface for the odd civic event (I saw a picture of Karen Black and the mayor of San Jacinto, CA, a few years ago.) They also offer their sound stage at Golden Era Productions (Google it!) to the local community -- IIRC, they offered to host the Hemet (CA) High School band a couple of years or so ago. They even have a golf course.

They keep a very low profile here. I have not seen or heard of any violence attributable to them.

Operation Clambake has been following the evils of Scientology from its inception, and have been putting up posts way back in the day, even before the WWW. That would be on BBS. [Link: www.xenu.net...]

244 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:26:43pm

re: #197 gtrs

illegal? how? explain this nonsense please

Third Term Abortions....

I would have preferred that he faced justice.

re: #223 gtrs

was he charged? this about law & order, not policy issues

Tiller went on trial in March 2009, charged with nineteen misdemeanors for allegedly consulting a second physician in late-term abortion cases who was not truly "independent" as required by Kansas state law.

On March 27, 2009, Tiller was found not guilty of all 19 misdemeanor charges stemming from some abortions he performed at his Wichita clinic in 2003. Although aquitted of criminal charges, the state’s Board of Healing Arts continues to investigate ethical violations that mirror prosecutors' allegations
-- wikipedia

245 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:28:54pm

re: #241 Naso Tang

Here we can agree. I trust you have noticed I don't use this place to explain why I call myself an atheist?

I still owe you a recipe. Coming soon.

:D

Sure!
Looking forward to the recipe.

246 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:29:29pm

re: #235 American Sabra

I don't think my statements are unsupported.

You were generalizing. I tried to give a very real and not unknown specific example to help you focus your generalization down to "what would YOU do?"

You didn't answer.

247 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:29:40pm

re: #236 Fearless Fred

No difference. No ... mental sickness I guess. I just want to be careful about letting people believe somehow the Bible may justify today's murder.

It's not the people in this thread you need to worry about "somehow believing the Bible justifies murder."

It's the people committing murder and applauding the murderers, and using the Bible as justification.

248 Bobblehead  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:30:07pm

LOL I get together something resembling a thought and a new thread appears.

249 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:31:00pm

re: #138 jaunte

Are you giving a legal opinion?

Well, I am giving my opinion. A common thing to do here.

250 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:31:11pm

re: #247 Charles

It's not the people in this thread you need to worry about "somehow believing the Bible justifies murder."

It's the people committing murder and applauding the murderers, and using the Bible as justification.

If it is "the Bible" that justifies this , it is the new testament, not the Hebrew Torah..rabbinical thought is clear on that.

251 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:31:29pm

re: #242 abbyadams

I am ashamed to share the planet with these people. And the label homo sapiens. That being said, I found this link on another blog; it goes to a Kansas Farmer's Forum, and this person was moved to share a story about Tiller. I am not presenting this with any agenda, I just thought it was interesting.
Link here

Good night to all.

And the posts there, aside from "showboat" are as vile as the ones on the FR.

252 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:31:44pm

re: #249 Buck

I thought he received a trial and was found innocent of the charges.

253 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:32:29pm

re: #243 American Sabra

Just as I predicted. You claim the Church murdered people. Then when asked for any link to evidence you provide a link to a hit site dedicated to the Church's destruction.

254 Aye Pod  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:33:06pm

re: #216 albusteve

I wish people here would ignore her, quit highlighting her outrageous posts an activities

I suppose we should stop talking about all the other right wing crazies on the web too - just ignore em, pretend there's nothing to see?

Glenn Beck, Ron Paul, Rush Limbaugh and the rest. What's the difference?

255 Steffan  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:33:11pm

re: #120 Iron Fist

As I've said before, were I someone with Downs Syndrome or the like I would be very alarmed at the people on the Left who say that I shouldn't have been allowed to be born. It makes me wonder. As the human genome mapping goes on it will become possible to test for other genetic diseases such as diabetes, or possibly even personality traits that could lend one to be depressive or manic or even possibly murder (they really are unsure what impact, if any, genetics has on personality and personality disorders). Should people with these (and others) not be permitted to be born? What about abortions to select the sex of the child? This isn't a problem so much in the United States, but it has reached epidemic proportions in China.

Two words: Trig Palin.

The people who most insisted that defective children should be aborted worked for Adolf Hitler.

Currently, the nation most involved in abortions is China. Ignoring the one-child-per-family requirement, the condition that they have been concentrating on eliminating is female gender.

This is going to bite them on the ass sometime within the next decade. In the meantime, there ain't a lot we can do about it. There's only so many kids that Angelina Jolie and Madonna can adopt, after all....

256 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:34:43pm

re: #252 jaunte

I thought he received a trial and was found innocent of the charges.

Which is why I said I would have preferred he faced justice.

257 jaunte  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:35:31pm

re: #256 Buck

You don't accept the trial results, then.

258 fizzlogic  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:36:40pm

re: #244 Buck

From a comment at Balloon Juice:

In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.

We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.

Frankly, I'm sick of pro-lifers.

259 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:38:08pm

re: #253 unrealizedviewpoint

Just as I predicted. You claim the Church murdered people. Then when asked for any link to evidence you provide a link to a hit site dedicated to the Church's destruction.

You can look at every accusation on that site and research it yourself and find they are completely accurate.

Do you actually know anything about Scientology? How it came about? What they believe?

260 onepistoffyid  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:42:35pm

re: #258 trendsurfer

From a comment at Balloon Juice:

Frankly, I'm sick of pro-lifersChristian Taliban.

That's better.

261 theheat  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:43:33pm

I have met more than a few vehement anti-abortion people in my life, and their views were right in line with some of these crazy postings I've read following the murder of Dr. Tiller. I remember distinctly a conversation about a woman that had supposedly had an abortion, and two or three people chimed in about how she should have been murdered, instead. These were all churchers, by the way, condoning her murder, one being the son of a Baptist minister. He added he thought "murder was too good" for the woman who supposedly had an abortion.

There is no middle ground with people who think this way. The person who murdered Dr. Tiller, if that's why he killed him, no doubt thinks the same as the holy rollers I've heard. The difference is, he acted on it. More sickening, many, many, many church-going people will think the murderer is a hero 'til the day they die. He did what they think should be done. And it appears from the number of comments atta-boying Dr. Tiller's murderer, this mindset is not as rare as one might hope.

Frankly, these people scare the shit outta me. And they're everyplace. Heck, I've met several without even trying.

262 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:44:06pm

re: #258 trendsurfer

From a comment at Balloon Juice:

Frankly, I'm sick of pro-lifers.

The information and story in your post I appreciate, but the comment would be better along the lines of, "I wish pro-lifers would understand the realities of life".

263 Steffan  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:44:29pm

re: #243 American Sabra

Operation Clambake has been following the evils of Scientology from its inception, and have been putting up posts way back in the day, even before the WWW. That would be on BBS. [Link: www.xenu.net...]

According to Jim Baen, Scientology is the result of a bet between L. Ron Hubbard and John Campbell. Seems like it kinda sorta grew legs after Hubbard's death.

264 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:45:56pm

re: #255 Steffan

Two words: Trig Palin.

The people who most insisted that defective children should be aborted worked for Adolf Hitler.

Currently, the nation most involved in abortions is China. Ignoring the one-child-per-family requirement, the condition that they have been concentrating on eliminating is female gender.

This is going to bite them on the ass sometime within the next decade. In the meantime, there ain't a lot we can do about it. There's only so many kids that Angelina Jolie and Madonna can adopt, after all....

There is no elderly care in China. No nursing homes, no Medicare, etc. When you grow old, you go to live with your son's family. If you have no son, you have no one take care of you. So when the one child rule came about, they got rid of the girl's to ensure having a son.

There are options to abortion in China. They have orphanages which aren't always clean or able to handle the amount of children. Sometimes a baby would just be left on the roadside or in a garbage bin to die.

There are plenty of people who chose to have a special needs child and that's terrific. People even chose to adopt special needs children. But that shouldn't be the mandate for every family.

265 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:45:58pm

re: #259 American Sabra

You can look at every accusation on that site and research it yourself and find they are completely accurate.

Do you actually know anything about Scientology? How it came about? What they believe?

What these folks believe is not at issue here. You made an accusation that they are murderers. You were asked by multiple commenter's to provide evidence. We're still waiting. A hit site whose sole purpose is to tear them down is not evidence.

266 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:48:45pm

re: #258 trendsurfer

My condolences to deekaa6 and his wife. However that does not mean that each and every 8th month abortion was like that.


I support every womans right to choose. However late in the third trimester, in my opinion, it should be more difficult to choose abortion.

267 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:53:40pm
268 theheat  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:54:11pm

re: #266 Buck

I wouldn't think anyone choosing abortion in the last trimester makes the decision very easily, to begin with. I would think there are a very particular set of circumstances they are facing to come to that conclusion. In any event, I doubt a cavalier attitude is the prevailing one.

269 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:56:50pm

re: #263 Steffan

According to Jim Baen, Scientology is the result of a bet between L. Ron Hubbard and John Campbell. Seems like it kinda sorta grew legs after Hubbard's death.

Hubbard wanted his own religion and it started to take on form when he was still alive. My husband always liked his book, "Battlefield Earth". He liked his sci fi writing. The thing is, he created his religion off of these stories. It's all bogus. It's all an ego trip.

Dianetics didn't have much umpfh to it until someone in the organization decided to target Hollywood maybe 15 years ago (like Rabbi Berg of the Kabbalah Centre in LA - New Age Kabbalah, Kabbalah for the Masses, Judaism free!). Hollywood equals big pockets and folks very willing to follow something outside the standard religions. God forbid you'd find a religious Christian, a Jew or a Muslim movie star (yes, I know there is, so don't throw things at me.... but you rarely hear about them). Scientology also treats its wealthy far different than it's mere every day people.

Any religion that separates you from your money, your stuff and your family is a cult. And that's Scientology. What they preach is such BS anyway that it's hard to believe people are that spiritually inept, but I suppose so.

270 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:56:51pm

re: #268 theheat

I wouldn't think anyone choosing abortion in the last trimester makes the decision very easily, to begin with. I would think there are a very particular set of circumstances they are facing to come to that conclusion. In any event, I doubt a cavalier attitude is the prevailing one.

I don't think "a cavalier attitude is the prevailing one" either, BUT I believe Tiller made a good living catering to the few that did.

271 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, May 31, 2009 5:57:56pm

In my view, this is what an American Taliban would (does?) look like. In some ways, the commentary quoted in Charles' post is just as disturbing as the act itself. Don't say 'it can't happen here'.

I would also point out that this is exactly the sort of thing the infamous DHS assessment regarding right-wing extremists was talking about. I hope everyone who got their panties in a wad over that are paying attention.

As the song said, this could be anywhere; this could be everywhere.

272 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:00:23pm

re: #268 theheat

I wouldn't think anyone choosing abortion in the last trimester makes the decision very easily, to begin with. I would think there are a very particular set of circumstances they are facing to come to that conclusion. In any event, I doubt a cavalier attitude is the prevailing one.

I used to believe that people are genuinely good. My blinders are removed. I now see some of the selfish horrible people.

273 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:01:03pm

re: #265 unrealizedviewpoint

What these folks believe is not at issue here. You made an accusation that they are murderers. You were asked by multiple commenter's to provide evidence. We're still waiting. A hit site whose sole purpose is to tear them down is not evidence.

Really? What they believe is completely the issue and why you are defending them is disgusting. Are you a scientologist?

I gave you links in #188. You don't want to read them is your business. And for the last time, it's not a "hit site". Every one of those links is substantiated. You don't want to look at them, I can't help you.

274 Racer X  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:04:04pm

re: #230 callahan23

If you are interested in astronomy you might know of Stellarium, which is a free software planetarium.
Very nifty.

Just finished checking it out - very cool! Similar to Starry Night.

275 [deleted]  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:11:02pm
276 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:11:51pm

re: #273 American Sabra

Really? What they believe is completely the issue and why you are defending them is disgusting. Are you a scientologist?

I gave you links in #188. You don't want to read them is your business. And for the last time, it's not a "hit site". Every one of those links is substantiated. You don't want to look at them, I can't help you.

FUCK YOU!
Substantiated? By who? You?
You're on some endeavor to tear these people down. We asked for evidence and you provide nothing but some link to a site with a thousand claims of bullshit. Where is your evidence that these people murdered people?

277 NY Nana  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:15:54pm

re: #8 Bloodnok

Could it be that the blog owners feel the same, and are kvelling at the vile, despicable, inhuman comments?

278 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:22:02pm

re: #276 unrealizedviewpoint

FUCK YOU!
Substantiated? By who? You?
You're on some endeavor to tear these people down. We asked for evidence and you provide nothing but some link to a site with a thousand claims of bullshit. Where is your evidence that these people murdered people?

You kiss your momma with that mouth?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In his 60-page [6] affidavit, he states that the COS trained him in psychological techniques to create obedience through the use of terror. Tabayoyon gave examples of people being driven insane by the "higher levels" of Hubbard's teaching and even said that this is sometimes done intentionally. In the affidavit, he stated under oath that the base is stockpiling weapons and ammunition. [5]

Brainwashing in Scientology [Link: www.lermanet.com...]

I provided you links. Do your own homework. Now I'm done with you.

279 Jim D  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:23:21pm

re: #275 Buck

wnd is not a good source

280 JacksonTn  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:24:01pm

re: #278 American Sabra

AS ... we are adults here and sometimes there is use of the Fuck You comment ... no need to bring his mother into it ...

281 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:27:19pm

re: #280 JacksonTn

AS ... we are adults here and sometimes there is use of the Fuck You comment ... no need to bring his mother into it ...

I wasn't talking to you.

282 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:27:33pm

re: #279 Jim D

wnd is not a good source

Did you read the link?

However the May 2003 testimony of Michelle Berge before the Kansas legislature is very compelling.

283 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:27:44pm

re: #278 American Sabra

Again - Where is your evidence that these people murdered people? We're not looking for some affidavit from someone who's making outrageous claims. I could swear out an affidavit against you tomorrow. That would not be evidence. Where is your evidence that these people murdered people?

284 JacksonTn  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:27:52pm

re: #281 American Sabra

I wasn't talking to you.

AS ... no shit ... but I was talking to you ...

285 yochanan  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:27:59pm

Jews believe that punishment for sin should be in G-d's hand thus shooting Dr Tiller is wrong but if they had fellowed Dr Kings example and commited peaceful civil disobedence at the abortion mill i would support it.

286 Jim D  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:29:02pm

re: #282 Buck

I don't read garbage from that site and do not trust anything written there.

287 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:31:58pm

re: #281 American Sabra

I wasn't talking to you.

This is an open forum. You obviously have much to learn. Especially in the claims and evidence department.

You claimed these people are murdered people. Where is your evidence?

288 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:33:28pm

re: #286 Jim D

That certainly is your choice.

289 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:38:32pm

re: #287 unrealizedviewpoint

You think you and Ms Jackson can intimidate people by telling them to F off and she knows what I'm talking about even if you don't. I'm not intimidated by you.

I cited 2 wrongful death cases. And btw, I never said used the word murder. You did. I said they have buckets of blood on their hands and they do.

AND NOW I'm done.

290 Shug  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:40:17pm

re: #100 Last Mohican

Eugenics refers to systematically altering the gene pool of a population, by encouraging the reproduction of people with desirable traits, or discouraging the reproduction of people with undesirable traits.

Abortion of a fetus with abnormalities so severe that the child could not survive to reproduce has no effect on the gene pool. If a pregnant woman decides to do that, or not to do that, the decision is made for other reasons, reasons that one might or might not find morally acceptable.


Tiller did some for Trisomy 21 AKA Down Syndrome

and because a mother was upset she couldn't attend a rodeo due to pregnancy and another because she couldn't attend a rock concert since she was pregnant.

These are not appropriate reasons but given the vague nature of the law in Kansas, they are legal reasons and he used them

the whole mental health exception is the loophole of choice in kansas, where a viable baby had less rights than a baby anywhere else in the world, even in Holland where they practice euthenasia, but won't terminate any pregnancy after 22 weeks, even if there is a really cool rock concert coming up


I think I'm done with this, I have a headache now.

Good night lizards

291 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:41:43pm

re: #217 Thanos

They did file suit, he was found not guilty by a jury.

Sorry I got distracted.

Yes I read that. Still doesn't justify vigilante justice.

292 kayfromcarroll  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:41:49pm
This is very, very bad craziness, at its worst. Shame on all you people who are gloating and partying over a murder that took place inside a church. And you call yourselves “Christians?” What the hell is wrong with you?


Glad you said this. God will be the final judge. This man elevated himself to be judge, jury, and executioner. He will be judged also.

Hope I didn't offend any atheists out there. Even if there is no God, then whatever, it's still contrary to condemn without trial.

293 Buck  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:44:08pm

Just to be more clear, I can despise what Tiller did, and still not wish to see him murdered.

294 JacksonTn  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:44:18pm

re: #289 American Sabra

You think you and Ms Jackson can intimidate people by telling them to F off and she knows what I'm talking about even if you don't. I'm not intimidated by you.

I cited 2 wrongful death cases. And btw, I never said used the word murder. You did. I said they have buckets of blood on their hands and they do.

AND NOW I'm done.

AS ... you mean when I told you to F*ck Off when you called me "Sweetie" and said that if I could not take the heat to get off the blog ... oh, yeah, I remember that one ... my comment to you on that post still stands ...

295 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:46:50pm

re: #289 American Sabra

You think you and Ms Jackson can intimidate people by telling them to F off and she knows what I'm talking about even if you don't. I'm not intimidated by you.

I cited 2 wrongful death cases. And btw, I never said used the word murder. You did. I said they have buckets of blood on their hands and they do.

AND NOW I'm done.

No! You never cited even one wrongful death case. I was waiting. I'm still waiting.
When someone says:

they have buckets of blood on their hands

that means they are responsible for the deaths. You haven't shown ANY proof along those lines. You think a couple lawsuits is proof? It's NOT. Every large organization has lawsuits against them. That's not proof. Now you're done.

296 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:53:33pm

re: #295 unrealizedviewpoint

[Link: www.sptimes.com...]

297 ariamne  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:53:54pm

re: #1 FurryOldGuyJeans
Sickmaking. I used to have many enjoyable discussions with people at Free Republic back in 2005, 2006, but I will doubt I will ever go back there again after the barrage of sick comments I waded through today.
Shower time.

298 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 6:56:20pm

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

(AP)On Saturday, "48 Hours" ran a story about the 2003 murder of Elli Perkins, a murder that her 28-year-old son Jeremy confessed to committing. Jeremy had been hallucinating and behaving erratically before his mother's death, but his parents, devout Scientologists, resisted giving him psychiatric treatment. As "48 Hours" notes, "[s]ome pro-Scientology materials declare that psychiatrists are not only useless, but evil – their medications nothing but poisons." The Perkins' opted to medicate their son primarily with vitamins.

299 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:06:09pm

re: #296 American Sabra

Just as predicted, you send a link about a settlement to a questionable case. It appears you failed to actually read the article:

Those charges were dropped in June 2000 after prosecutors blamed then-Medical Examiner Joan Wood for scuttling their case.

Wood initially said McPherson had died of complications from dehydration. In 2000, five years later, Wood said that after reviewing her findings she determined the death was accidental.

300 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:09:54pm

re: #298 American Sabra

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

(AP)On Saturday, "48 Hours" ran a story about the 2003 murder of Elli Perkins, a murder that her 28-year-old son Jeremy confessed to committing. Jeremy had been hallucinating and behaving erratically before his mother's death, but his parents, devout Scientologists, resisted giving him psychiatric treatment. As "48 Hours" notes, "[s]ome pro-Scientology materials declare that psychiatrists are not only useless, but evil – their medications nothing but poisons." The Perkins' opted to medicate their son primarily with vitamins.


From the article:

One of the primary complaints from Scientologists was that CBS News has a conflict of interest in covering the story, since the network counts pharmaceutical companies among its advertisers. The argument was that since these companies make anti-depressant and anti-psychotic drugs, CBS News wanted to promote them – and that this story was one way to do that. Mason disputes this argument. "Nothing could be further from the truth," she says. "At CBS the sales department and the news department – there is a Chinese wall between them.

We here all know about that Chinese Wall. Is that the same wall that was up during election time, the one that shilled for Øbama?

301 aRedPhishHead  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:11:24pm

I've been lurking all over on this story today and must say I was surprised to see the apologias and equivalencies offered by some who were claiming that this was a form of "God's Law" being enacted, and a many others saying that they didn't condone the act BUT understood the feelings responsible so it's hard to care too much yadda...

There really are far too many trying desperately to spin this as some sort of a positive or "vengeance" for Roe v. Wade or something.

Hope the scumbag goes away for a long time.

302 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:18:50pm

You think a couple lawsuits is proof? It's NOT. Every large organization has lawsuits against them. Every large organization gets bad press. You are out of steam.

303 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:23:25pm

re: #299 unrealizedviewpoint

And in 2003 Circuit Judge Susan Schaeffer ruled the wrongful death lawsuit against the Scientology should continue. You really are a dishonest person. You wanted a wrongful death suit. I gave you 3. McPherson's case is very indepth case with many twists and turns. In the end, it settled confidentially.

This woman was suffering from serious mental illness, was cut off from her family and friends and suffered and died at the hands of Scientology. But you keep spinning it any way you like.

304 Dahveed  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:23:40pm

I wonder how many of the kooks that celebrate this disgusting act of terror believe that Judge Sotomayor doesn't believe in the rule of law. Well, you can't have it both ways. This is an act against the laws of G-d and man. So, if you think that Judge Sotomayor is against the rule of law and you celebrate this murder, you are in fact against the rule of law. You've lost all credibility in just about everything in my mind.

305 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:26:04pm

re: #303 American Sabra

And in 2003 Circuit Judge Susan Schaeffer ruled the wrongful death lawsuit against the Scientology should continue. You really are a dishonest person. You wanted a wrongful death suit. I gave you 3. McPherson's case is very indepth case with many twists and turns. In the end, it settled confidentially.

This woman was suffering from serious mental illness, was cut off from her family and friends and suffered and died at the hands of Scientology. But you keep spinning it any way you like.

Oh, I see, the evidence of the medical examiner is worthless? I'll go with evidence. I like evidence before I convict.

306 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:27:49pm

Ya know American Sabra, you speak to buckets of blood and provide buckets of nothing.

307 EaterOfFood  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:38:46pm

I read the Freeper bile and it makes me ashamed to be a part of the same species as them.

308 American Sabra  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:42:21pm

re: #305 unrealizedviewpoint

Oh, I see, the evidence of the medical examiner is worthless? I'll go with evidence. I like evidence before I convict.

You know nothing about this case but continue to go on about it. Five years into the case, the Medical Examiner, Joan Wood, changed the autopsy and the death certificate from death by dehydration to "accidental" after being pressured by Scientologists. That change caused the case to be dropped in 2000, only to be picked up again in 2003, transferred to another county.

309 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:45:20pm

re: #308 American Sabra

Take your hate somewhere else. I'm tired of hearing it.

310 JohninLondon  Sun, May 31, 2009 8:07:39pm

Charles

As so many times before, you have tried to set a sane view.

Of course Dr Tiller's murder is evil. Any murder is evil.

What surprises me is that Obama has jumped in with comments. Is it usual for a President to make instant comment about a murder ? Or is he trying to turn this straight away into a pro-life issue ?

..............

I am neither"pro-life" nor "pro-choice". Widespread abortion is a regrettable result of looser morals, it seems to me. Times have changed.

But there are distinctions - perhaps.

The one totally clear distinction, the one that appalled me during the election campaign, was that Obama would not support moves in the Illinois legislature to require medical aid to be given to infants who survive late-term abortion.

A fact that the MSM covered up totally. Not just during the elction, but also in all the Notre Dame brouhaha.

Obama's solo votes in the Illinois legislature put him on the far extreme of the pro-life camp. When will the US public be allowed to recognise this ?

311 charlesincharge  Sun, May 31, 2009 9:16:43pm

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

So the Religious Right now sanctions blood sacrifices upon an altar?

Truly disgusting the reactions.

No they do not. I'm not very religious but I am right. I'm sure you'll see most religious organizations condemn this murder.

You might want to consider the "non-religious" Lefts call for murder usually on a grand scale.

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot,Saddam Hussein to name a very few. They not only "sanctioned" murder they carried it out.

B. Obama's friend and mentor, Bill Ayres, called for the death of millions of Americans to bring about his Utopian ideas. He only blinded and crippled some people but not for lack of trying to kill them.

312 Aye Pod  Sun, May 31, 2009 9:31:07pm

re: #311 charlesincharge

You might want to consider the "non-religious" Lefts call for murder usually on a grand scale.

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot,Saddam Hussein to name a very few.

Hate to break the news to you buddy but Hitler was not a leftie. He was an extreme right wing fascist.

You can try this sort of revisionist crap here if you want but I think you'll find very few buyers.

313 charlesincharge  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:09:06pm

re: #312 Jimmah

Hate to break the news to you buddy but Hitler was not a leftie. He was an extreme right wing fascist.

You can try this sort of revisionist crap here if you want but I think you'll find very few buyers.

What about Hitler was "extreme right wing"? He used anti-communist propaganda when he wanted to gain power. They were his "boogie man". That was "real politique" not right wing ideology.

When it comes to philosophy of governance there are only two kinds. Those that allow personal freedom and those who do not. Right or left some governments believe "they know it all". Better governments leave the people be free to decide. There should be some fundamental laws to make sure the majority does not commit a tyranny over a minority or visa versa. Sound familiar?

314 oldbluesboy  Sun, May 31, 2009 10:34:35pm

I am a conservative.
I am a law abiding conservative.
What the doctor did was NOT illegal, even though I disagree with what he has done. The murderer must pay the lawful price for what he did. Legally, the doctor did not deserve to die, especially at the hand of another citizen.

Our constitution gave us the right to make choices under it's laws. My only recourse to Roe V. Wade is to cast my vote to have it overturned. However, it is not my right to kill anyone n the process.

The world is watching us fight one another over ideology and our enemies are celebrating.

Stop!

315 Noah's Arrrgh  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:04:28pm

Robert George sums up much of what I am thinking and feeling about this:

Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our "weapons" in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit.

The only thing that I would add is this: by killing George Tiller, his murderer has robbed Dr Tiller of the time which may have softened his heart and provided the moment in which he may have repented of the evil that he's done. In that sense, his murderer has done something quite the opposite of loving his enemy - he has participated in Dr. Tiller's unrepentance, which has eternal consequences. That is not the action of a Christian.

316 SixDegrees  Sun, May 31, 2009 11:50:22pm

Reading over some of the hate-filled comments referenced, it's easy to see why DHS feels the need to keep an eye on fringe political groups. These people are cheering on an odious man and his acts, and in many cases calling for more of the same.

This is as vile an act as any carried out by the Taliban, complete with cheering supporters passing out candy in the streets in celebration.

317 Cygnus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:01:40am

re: #122 Racer X

Haven't seen one of these in a while.

It's not like they can call AAA for a tow either.

318 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:11:33am
319 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:33:53am

re: #318 DrZin

I don't get the smug self-righteousness.

It is not at all an illegitimate point of view to consider people like Tiller worse than or at least as bad as Osama Bin Laden. I don't know whether I personally do or not; but I can tell you I feel a lot less bad about his murder than I would about he murder of someone exactly the same in all respects save the diabolical profession.

But either way, when Bin Laden's finally brought low, and the people righteously celebrate, is there going to be all of this sanctimonious moral scolding?

Just curious . . .

It might help clarify your thought processes to consider: of bin Laden, Miller and Roeder, which two are operating outside the law and therefore are criminals; and which one is operating within the law, and therefore is not?

320 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:36:39am
321 tedzilla99  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:22:34am

Too bad there's no quotes of left-wing craziness on this issue - I know, left-wing crazy is redundant, but some balance would have been nice.

322 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:17:38am

re: #321 tedzilla99

Too bad there's no quotes of left-wing craziness on this issue - I know, left-wing crazy is redundant, but some balance would have been nice.

I'm not aware of any Left-wing organizations involved in murdering abortion providers, or even involved in opposing abortion.

There's certainly no shortage of nutcases on the Left - ALF and Earth First! leap to mind - but that isn't the topic of this thread. There has been ample excoriation of these morons elsewhere, and if the topic comes up again in an appropriate venue, I'll happily contribute to the condemnation.

323 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:18:24am

re: #320 DrZin

That's just silly pedantry.

Nope. Just the truth.

It's disturbing to hear that you're not able to perceive it.

324 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:37:13am

re: #322 SixDegrees

I'm not aware of any Left-wing organizations involved in murdering abortion providers, or even involved in opposing abortion.

There's certainly no shortage of nutcases on the Left - ALF and Earth First! leap to mind - but that isn't the topic of this thread. There has been ample excoriation of these morons elsewhere, and if the topic comes up again in an appropriate venue, I'll happily contribute to the condemnation.

But, what 'right-wing organization' was involved in murdering an abortionist? I haven't heard there was an organization assisting in this killing.

325 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:38:25am
Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our "weapons" in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit.

— Robert P. George is McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University.

326 tedzilla99  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:44:04am

re: #322 SixDegrees

I'm not aware of any Left-wing organizations involved in murdering abortion providers, or even involved in opposing abortion.

There's certainly no shortage of nutcases on the Left - ALF and Earth First! leap to mind - but that isn't the topic of this thread. There has been ample excoriation of these morons elsewhere, and if the topic comes up again in an appropriate venue, I'll happily contribute to the condemnation.

Gee, I'm talking about crazy left-wing blogs posting on this issue - maybe a little closer reading of what I posted would be helpful? I mean, this post is about right-wing reaction to the murder, isn't it? And exactly what organization is behind this murder?

327 tryagain  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:55:23am

good work Charles. Keep it up

328 RandomUK  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:57:23am

People who "have not the faintest doubt" about something like whether a person is in hell are not only very scary and very arrogant, but also very unchristian. Who are they to prejudge their own god's decisions?

329 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:06:13am

re: #326 tedzilla99

Gee, I'm talking about crazy left-wing blogs posting on this issue - maybe a little closer reading of what I posted would be helpful? I mean, this post is about right-wing reaction to the murder, isn't it? And exactly what organization is behind this murder?

Apparently not these below ...

The National Right to Life Committee does the right thing:

NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE CONDEMNS THE KILLING

OF DR. GEORGE TILLER

WASHINGTON – The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC), the nation's largest pro-life group, today condemned the killing of Dr. George Tiller. The following statement may be attributed to NRLC Executive Director, David N. O'Steen, Ph.D.:

National Right to Life extends its sympathies to Dr. Tiller's family over this loss of life.

Further, the National Right to Life Committee unequivocally condemns any such acts of violence regardless of motivation. The pro-life movement works to protect the right to life and increase respect for human life. The unlawful use of violence is directly contrary to that goal.

The National Right to Life Committee has always been involved in peaceful, legal activities to protect human lives threatened by abortion, infanticide and euthanasia. We always have and will continue to oppose any form of violence to fight the violence of abortion. NRLC has had a policy of forbidding violence or illegal activity by its staff, directors, officers, affiliated state organizations and chapters. NRLC's sole purpose is to protect innocent human life.

NRLC will continue to work through educational and legislative activities to ensure the right to life for unborn children, people with disabilities and older people. NRLC will continue to work for peaceful solutions to aid pregnant women and their unborn children. These solutions involve helping women and their children and do not involve violence against anyone.

UPDATE: More:

Washington, D.C. – Susan B. Anthony List President Marjorie Dannenfelser offered the following statement in response to the death of abortionist George Tiller as the result of a morning attack by an unidentified gunman today:

“The Susan B. Anthony List condemns this anti-life act in the strongest of terms. The heart of the pro-life movement is one founded in love. Without this driving powerful center no justice can possibly be achieved. Authentic progress in women’s rights has always encompassed the protection of human rights of every person across the board. The rights of one human being can never be honored by diminishing or ignoring the rights of another. This week as we gather for our annual June Tea event, themed Love Lets Live, we will lift up George Tiller’s loved ones in prayer.”

And more:

Washington, D.C. - News reports today have announced that Kansas late-term abortionist George Tiller was shot and murdered this morning as he entered church.

Tony Perkins, President of Family Research Council, had this to say:

"We are stunned at today's news. As Christians we pray and look toward the end of all violence and for the saving of souls, not the taking of human life. George Tiller was a man who we publicly sought to stop through legal and peaceful means. We strongly condemn the actions taken today by this vigilante killer and we pray for the Tiller family and for the nation that we might once again be a nation that values all human, both born and unborn."

330 Baelzar  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:12:56am

Welcome to another round of
"Why the Republicans will Continue to Lose."
As long as these people are Republicans, I am not.

331 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:14:18am
332 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:19:11am
333 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:22:26am
334 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:23:53am

re: #331 wolf

Take the comments, insert Osama bin Laden's name for Tiller's and no one would be upset with the comments. They would be rejoicing in the killing of a fanatic terrorist.

Some people look at killing late term children as terrorism. How many children has the man murdered?

This man was performing a legal service that is not considered murder by the laws of this nation. Sometimes, horrible fetal deformations are not noted until the third trimester, and some doctor somewhere has to deal with them; sometimes hydrocephalic fetuses that would die shortly after birth have heads swelled so full with water that the mother would die before they could pass through the birth canal; sometimes expectant mothers develop medical conditions late in their pregnancies that would render childbirth a death sentence. Dr. Tiller was willing to assume this burden and the stigmatization of unreasoning religious fanatics in order to do so.

For you to egregiously and illegitimately equate him with the likes of Usama Bin Laden tells me all that I need to know about you.

335 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:31:36am

The comments here condemning Dr. Tiller and comparing him to Bin Laden and Hitler remind me of the Nazis calling Jews Christ-killers and publishing caricatures of them drawn as vermin, before engaging in the Holocaust.

It becomes so much easier to justify murdering someone when you demonize and dehumanize them forst.

336 Syrah  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:42:23am

Maybe someone has already mentioned this. . .

The "sovereign citizen" kooks have some interesting fellow "members."

In April 1992, an angry resident of Sanilac County, Michigan, wrote a letter to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources stating he was no longer a "citizen of the corrupt political corporate State of Michigan and the United States of America" and was answerable only to the "Common Laws." He therefore expressly revoked his signature on any hunting or fishing licenses, which he viewed as contracts that fraudulently bound him to the illegitimate government of Michigan.

That obscure Michigan hunter would, three years later, become known to the entire world. He was Terry Nichols, friend and accomplice of Oklahoma City Federal Building bomber Timothy McVeigh.

337 starsfan914  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 7:56:20am

No matter how much anyone disagreed with the procedures Tiller was performing it is not right for him to be murdered. I have never understood the logic of "killing is wrong, so I must kill the killer."

Bombing of Abortion clinics is wrong too. If you oppose these things then do it the legal and non-violent way. Acting in a violent way is counter productive and diminishes the message and the people who have worked peacefully to oppose abortion.

338 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:03:15am

re: #329 Fearless Fred

Apparently not these below ...

The National Right to Life Committee does the right thing:

NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE CONDEMNS THE KILLING

OF DR. GEORGE TILLER

Kudos to National Right to Life. It is a tragedy that such things happen, and it is worse that people rejoice or try to justify it. It is abundantly obvious that so many people just miss the boat in dealing with specific issues. They get so caught up in their movement and get so much of their emotional high from that movement, they miss the underlying issue and run off and do stupid things, then justify it by their emotional high. (Sadly, many of these people with strong convictions so not have them based on anything but a number of unsubstantiated beliefs, and by that I am not talking about believing in God or the Bible.)

The result, I feel I need to clarify a few things for them AND their opponents. Maybe a few on either side will wake up and realize what a horror this is, and not just as one side or another of their decidedly concrete ideologies.

First, the Exodus 20 command is so often mistranslated or misquoted. It does not read, "Thou shall not kill." A MUCH better reading is, "Thou shall do no murder." Murder is an entirely different thing than killing. The government, having established beyond a doubt that a person is guilty of murder and putting them down for the good of society, is acting to kill in capital punishment. In doing so, the government is taking an active and decisive step AGAINST murder. A private citizen, performing the exact same killing without the recognition, authorization, and involvement of government is merely committing another murder. A good working definition of murder, for both religious OR legal standards is the killing of another human, with deliberate intent, premeditation, and/or (touching the legal definition here) while in the commission of a separate crime, without the endorsement and sanction of due process of law. Killing to protect one's own life, property (in some cases), or to intervene in the IMMEDIATE situation to protect an innocent that is actively being threatened at the immediate time the action is taken is excluded. A private person killing to avenge a wrong most distinctly and certainly IS a murder.

Example: I had a friend growing up in a physically and sexually abusive home. EVERYONE that knew anything about the situation knew about the physical abuse, and nothing was being done about it. The above definition of murder clearly allows stepping in and defending the children in this house, up to and including killing the abuser, at the moment the abuse is actually happening. Taking the law into your own hands after the fact, because the law was doing nothing to the abuser, is not justified.

As for abortion being murder, then, you have to answer a question. Is the 'fetus' (if we want to be PC) a distinct human life, separate from the mother? If you turn to scientists, medical texts, and even abortionists, the answer MUST be, 'yes'. Every aspect of its humanity and life, including a distinct genetic code, are established at conception. Even setting aside DNA, which we really cannot, everything else is established at that point, and in some cases, can be measurably determined (as distinct, separate, and even different from the mother's medical stats) before the mother can even be certain she is pregnant without using such medical tests. So, abortion is the deliberate killing of another human. As for due process of law, Roe V. Wade did NOT establish due process for such killings. (Many people are misinformed what it did do.) Due process for such killings would require a case-by-case court conviction of this human life with a legally established death penalty for their crime. (Note, only Congress can establish the penalty for the crime, the court, legally, cannot.)

339 Land Shark  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:04:18am

I'm as opposed to abortion as anyone, but to resort to murder and terrorism is not just unacceptable, it's downright evil. I understand the passion, but I can't accept the action. Even against a doctor performing late term abortions, as despicable as that is. I was hoping we were past that, but it's obvious there's still loonies out there that think murder is a valid option to oppose abortion.

Fortunately most people opposed to abortion I know condemn this action without reservation as I do. But to see people who profess to be Christian celebrate this murder is disturbing. I'm reminded of that phrase, WWJD, What Would Jesus Do? Well, he wouldn't murder somebody for starters. And He wouldn't celebrate a murder, either!

340 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:13:11am
341 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:22:13am

Went a bit longer there than I expected, but hopefully it establishes a foundation.

For private citizens, "killing the killer" is ALWAYS wrong and murder. For governments, the execution of a murderer is justice (and providing for the needed public protection). These two, even killing the same person, are so far removed from each other that the prior is another murder needing justice and the latter can be best described as putting down a rabid animal for the protection of society. (Before you attack, I am not calling murderers rabid or animals. I am saying that the execution, upon conviction and sentencing, is as beneficial to society as putting down rabid animals...or man-eating tigers, for that matter.)

Now abortion may be legal, due to a fraudulent and purjerous trial, a court overstepping its authority, and a badly understood legal decision resulting from that. That does not make it any less murder than shooting your neighbor in the head. It only means that until the legal system gets straightened around, if it ever does, it is murder that will not be punished through due process.

That does not justify private citizens taking the law into their own hands. A lynch mob is also as much murder as shooting your neighbor in the head.

What these people do, by throwing their own murderous ways on top of the murders of abortion, is put themselves in that same category of beings to be put down for the public good. They greatly injure their own cause, they distort the beliefs of many, the give a bad name to the beliefs of many more.

The worst part, though, and what makes it the most tragic, is that they murder. They deliberately, and without sanction of law, court, or government in due process, take another human life. They get so caught up in their private, ultimately hate-driven, vendetta that they become what they despise the most.

As for abortions, abortionists, and the mothers, that is something where I fear the will of the people will never be heard, because the courts are cemented in their desire to maintain and hold onto illegally usurped power. Specifically for the mothers, they are almost as much victims as the babies being murdered. I say almost because they don't die (most of the time), but they have to live on with the results. It is a choice they have to live with, and worse, it is a choice they make without knowing what is being done. Informed consent on abortions is completely non-existent. At best, one or two out of every million abortions performed, does the mother have any real idea what is being done. The rest are misled and lied to, and THAT is a tragedy on a par with the lawless murders of abortionists.

342 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:24:33am

re: #339 Land Shark

Very well said, and in fewer words than I use.

343 El Guape  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:42:17am

re: #340 shotgun

It's impossible to have an objective moral standard from a materialist worldview. Most materialists argue that whatever promotes the survival of the species or some form of continuation of life to be the highest moral good. Even in that case the good Dr. would pretty much be the scumiest guy I've read about.

Murder is murder, whether it's a human that weighs 2 grams or 70 kilograms. What surprises me is the indignation by most commenters here about how despicaple the statements of the pro-death-to-abortionist-crowd. On what basis do most of you ground your moral claims? re: #4 Jetpilot1101

This type of behavior is inexcusable. I would recommend to many of these people who most likely call themselves "Christians" to dust of their Bibles and take a good long look at Exodus Chapter 20, specifically verse 13: "Thou shalt no kill". You can't have it both ways; either the Bible is right or you are. That aught to make some heads explode.

You can't read or quote that well, Jetpilot1101 . The verse (mis)quoted by you, doesn't read "Thou shalt no kill". It reads "Don't do murder" by the much more accurate and mainstream International Version, or by the most accurate English version, the NASB. No heads exploding here.

344 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:42:43am

re: #340 shotgun

You make some excellent points. People need a greater deal of consistency, and maybe I need to clarify myself.

Murder is murder is murder. There are almost no cases where something being a murder fluctuates with the vagaries of law. I must point out that taking part, as a soldier, in an arguably just war is one of those cases, and being an executioner as an agent of the state to execute those convicted of capital crimes is another. I must point out that killing while performing the roles of either of these, but not actually being a legally recognized soldier or sanctioned executioner would be murder. I must also point out that it is quite possible to commit murder while a sanctioned agent of the government in either of these situations. I would argue that killing civilians while a military agent of the state is murder with very few exceptions. (One must point out that terrorists often deliberately create situations that could be considered the exceptions. That one must also point out that even so, the soldiers must make every reasonable effort to protect the civilian lives in their actions all the same.)

Herein lies pretty much the only fuzzy line in murder, and it isn't all that fuzzy when you look at it closely. A sanctioned executioner, performing the role as an agent of the government, in a scheduled execution of a convict sentenced to die at that execution, while killing, is not committing murder. That same sanctioned executioner, or a private citizen, going down death row and shooting the same convict the day before the sentenced execution, is murder.

345 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 8:53:12am

re: #343 El Guape

Murder is murder, whether it's a human that weighs 2 grams or 70 kilograms. What surprises me is the indignation by most commenters here about how despicaple the statements of the pro-death-to-abortionist-crowd. On what basis do most of you ground your moral claims?

I have to take issue here, somewhat. There is absolutely no grounds to debate that the public endorsement and celebration of the killing of this abortionist is anything but despicable. Are abortionists murders? Yes. Should the GOVERNMENT go out, round them all up and try them for murder? Yes. Should at least some of those trials result in government sanctioned and performed executions? Yes.

Neither that, nor the government's failure in their role, justify a private citizen taking the law into their own hands and committing murder on their own. Any statements endorsing or celebrating such people going outside the law to commit murder by executing anyone are despicable. The acts are despicable. We should weep that people do this. We should weep that people endorse and celebrate it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I don't find that we have grounds for rejoicing even in justified and sanctioned executions, other than rejoicing in the fact that the government is taking seriously its role of providing justice and protecting the public. In the killing itself, no joy. Even weep that such is needed.

No, there is no inconsistency with moral outrage over this action or speaking against the despicable nature of rejoicing in such tragedy.

346 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:03:07am
347 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:06:29am

re: #330 Baelzar

Welcome to another round of
"Why the Republicans will Continue to Lose."
As long as these people are Republicans, I am not.

Sometimes people miss the boat. From the actions such people take and what they say, I would argue that such people are not Republications. A better label would be anarchists.

Anyway, you are arguing to support political choices you have previously made by taking the absolute worst and most extreme of people attributed to a group and saying that because these people are so dissimilar to you or your standards and beliefs, you would not belong to that broad group. It is MORE logically sound for a man to say that because the vast super-majority of serial killers are men, he will never be a man.

Now if you look at the mainstream and/or the best of the people in that group and find such idealogical dissimilarity, by all means, choose not to be a member of the group.

Now to believe that such people are the best, the mainstream, or ANYTHING except one of the radical fringes of Republicans, if you insist they have to be grouped with Republicans, is willful blindness to the truth.

348 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:34:39am

re: #346 shotgun

Ah! Intellectual integrity in debate.

To look at ALL the stats on capital punishment, only can only conclude that properly performed, it works as both punishment and deterrent to the commission of capital crimes. The way it is performed in today's America, hardly so. (When a serial killer can live longer and safer on appeal in death row, and without personal expense, than he/she would on the streets, you have little or no deterrent.)

The exact reason why it is OK for the government and not the private citizen is the roles, duties, and responsibilities of government, which most crucially and minimally involve providing justice to the wronged and protection of the public. Where you are getting mixed up is in equating justice with vengeance. Simply put, what for the private citizen is vengeance, for the government authority, in due process, is justice. Vengeance is to be avoided, justice is to be praised.

Since you have pointed the way, with your reference, "Vengeance is mine", I would point out that the Bible designates that government is the body with the authority AND responsibility to establish and maintain justice. Vengeance is repeatedly condemned, justice is applauded. PART of that justice is established in Genesis 9:5,6. That one doesn't even depend on the translation. It says that if an animal kills a man or if a man murders another man, they are both to be put down as an act of justice.

349 blangwort  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:35:53am

re: #77 amused

It seems like the churches would have already invented a special hell rule for people who kill in a church. As a deterrent...

Is there something special about WHERE a killing happens? Whether it happens in a back alleyway or whether it happens in the middle of a house of worship, it is still murder.

My condolences go to Dr. Tiller and his family. They also go to another unfortunate person, a man who has thrown away the rest of his life: his murderer. Capital punishment is too easy for that poor man. He deserves to live the remainder of his life in SuperMax, thinking about his crime over and over and over...

350 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:49:48am

re: #346 shotgun

So you're saying it's exactly ok for the state to do what it's not ok for the private citizen to do.

I have to point out that this is one of the critical tenets of our entire justice system and punishments for ANY crimes. (Actually, it is for pretty much ALL law.)

This is part of why the government can tax you, but a private person cannot take your money.

This is part of why a police officer can pull you over for speeding (or even having a tail light out), but the common citizen cannot pull you over for drunk driving, at night, with all your lights off, no seat belt, AND speeding through a residential neighborhood.

This is why the state can throw a person in jail, and you cannot even detain them to their driveway.

It is all about the government being given the authority to act for justice and the common good in ways that, for the sake of law, order, and a disdain for chaos and vengeance, we deny to private citizens. That is why there is a rule of law. (That is also why many of those laws restrict the authority of the government to keep it from attempting to take power not legitimately granted to it.)

351 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 10:19:31am

Anyone who tried to excuse the murder of Dr. Tiller has lost their account. I won't stand for this kind of thing at LGF, period. Full stop.

To those people who have a problem understanding the immorality of cold-blooded murder in the name of God, I suggest you sign up for an account at Free Republic where you'll be among like-minded bloodthirsty morons.

352 kaymad  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 10:48:30am

People who speak for me:

James Dobson, Focus on the Family founder:

"We are shocked by the murder of George Tiller, and we categorically condemn the act of vigilantism and violence that took his life. America has from its foundation respected the rule of law, by which every citizen is guaranteed life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Those constitutional rights are forfeited only when crimes have been committed, and the perpetrator is charged and found guilty by a jury of his or her peers in a court of law.

"Tiller recently faced serious charges related to the killing of babies in violation of the law, by the most grotesque procedures administered without anesthetics or compassion. We profoundly regretted the outcome of his legal case, believing the doctor had the blood of countless babies on his hands. Nevertheless, he was exonerated by the court and declared "not guilty" in the eyes of the law. That is our system, and we honor it.

"Our condolences are extended to the Tiller family. The person or persons responsible for his death should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."


The Rev. John Fuller, Harbor Lights Church in Colorado Springs, nondenominational, evangelical:


"It is sad that someone would go in and shoot the man. This brings nothing more than sorrow. To do this in a place of worship makes this shooting doubly sad."

The Rev. Dave Markwalder, Gateway Presbyterian Church in Colorado Springs:

"It is a tragedy. To protest abortion is to uphold life. To take this life is the opposite of what protesting abortion is about."

Sister Anne Stedman, head of the Catholic Benedictine order at Benet Hill Monastery in Colorado Springs:

"Violence does not beget violence. There has to be another way to react when we feel strongly against abortion. Violence is not the answer.

The Rev. Bill Carmody, a pastor at St. Dominic's parish in Security and leader of the anti-abortion movement for Catholics in Colorado Springs called the killing of abortion doctor George Tiller a tragedy.

"To me, it's the height of hypocrisy to claim to be pro-life and then to kill an abortion doctor," he said. "Violence has no place in our movement."

A move like this, he said, will set back the anti-abortion movement and feed the stereotype that abortion opponents are radicals, he said.

Carmody leads a weekly vigil in front of Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood. He said that in the past he has prayed for abortion doctors.

"I wanted his conversion, I didn't want his death," he said.

Carmody said that he will continue to pray for Tiller.

"He is a child of God. He deserves our prayers and respect. I will pray for him and his soul and his family. This is not the way to end abortion.

I'm sure i will be made to feel that this is somehow my fault by the media because I do not support abortion. I myself could vote for someone who is pro choice, it is not the number one issue for me. However, I can't help thinking this issue and the passionate response from both sides could have been avoided if it weren't for Roe v Wade. Much like capital punishment, abortion rules and regulation should belong to each individual state. What a damn mess, and one that won't go away for a long time.

353 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 10:59:51am

re: #351 Charles

Bravo Charles! I regret that I can only uptick this once.

354 Land Shark  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:15:32am

re: #335 Salamantis

Actually, if anybody is acting like Bin Laden it's those who would murder an abortionist. More often than not, such murders have intimidation as a purpose, the hope they can scare the doctors into changing their behaviour. No different than terrorrists.

And it seems that in this case revenge played a part. Another thing Jesus would not do. Sadly, a number of my fellow Christians are failing Jesus big time when they celebrate or condone this murder.

355 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:17:15am

re: #338 JackofTrades

I just don't know what any of this has to do with those of us who want less government. Wanting less government means (along with much else) wanting more freedom. How are you free if you're killed in the womb? How are you free if you're killed in the foyer of the church where you pray and worship?

So, it weirds me out to keep hearing that the 'right wing' (freedom lovers - conservatives) are all excited and happy and rejoicing in the murder of this man, Tiller. It seems like left-liberals believe that associating conservatives ('right wing' 'extremists') with the whacky nuts now celebrating the evil and wicked deed of Tiller's murder, will somehow lead to a socialist - or maybe a culture war - victory over conservatives. To me, trying to make that association between conservatives and the hateful whack-jobs, is mean-spirited and shallow. I can't see how in the bigger picture it will do anything but make liberals look ridiculous.

I do wonder though, what percentage of self-identified 'conservatives' are pleased about the murdering of Dr. Tiller? My guess - and hope - is that it's a tiny number.

356 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:23:22am

re: #352 kaymad


I'm sure i will be made to feel that this is somehow my fault by the media because I do not support abortion. I myself could vote for someone who is pro choice, it is not the number one issue for me. However, I can't help thinking this issue and the passionate response from both sides could have been avoided if it weren't for Roe v Wade. Much like capital punishment, abortion rules and regulation should belong to each individual state. What a damn mess, and one that won't go away for a long time.

Individuals may feel somewhat more empowered once it goes properly back to the states. Citizens would feel good about deciding such matters at home, through locally elected representatives. Citizens would feel less like subjects.

357 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:27:54am

re: #347 JackofTrades

Sometimes people miss the boat. From the actions such people take and what they say, I would argue that such people are not Republications. A better label would be anarchists.

Anyway, you are arguing to support political choices you have previously made by taking the absolute worst and most extreme of people attributed to a group and saying that because these people are so dissimilar to you or your standards and beliefs, you would not belong to that broad group. It is MORE logically sound for a man to say that because the vast super-majority of serial killers are men, he will never be a man.

Now if you look at the mainstream and/or the best of the people in that group and find such idealogical dissimilarity, by all means, choose not to be a member of the group.

Now to believe that such people are the best, the mainstream, or ANYTHING except one of the radical fringes of Republicans, if you insist they have to be grouped with Republicans, is willful blindness to the truth.

Yeah. Thanks for saying that.

358 Land Shark  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:42:24am

re: #351 Charles

What bugs me is that fellow Christians would see murder in God's name as an option. Or condoning such evil. Simply unacceptable to me. And I believe when the innevitable happens and they meet their maker He will let them know in no uncertain terms it's unacceptable to him.

359 JackofTrades  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:54:50pm

re: #358 Land Shark

What bugs me is that fellow Christians would see murder in God's name as an option. Or condoning such evil. Simply unacceptable to me. And I believe when the inevitable happens and they meet their maker He will let them know in no uncertain terms it's unacceptable to him.

Too true. Killing in God's name, or the state's, or morality's, has been given as belonging solely to the government. Even then, as I said, the only joy that should be found in the government executing a guilty and convicted party should be in rejoicing that government is doing its job. All else, I see nothing in the killing of anyone for any reason that is grounds for anything except sadness and weeping, especially a killing NOT sanctioned by the government through due process.. To usurp God's authority, or to usurp the authority he has given to governments, is an unqualified evil and should be rejected by us all.

360 savarulz  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:46am

If your a Pro-Lifer and you condoned the MURDER of Tiller then your not any better than the Pro-Choicers out there. I will never understand how fellow pro-lifers can act this way. With this event happening in my back yard it disgusts me. ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE. This is not what the Bible says an eye for an eye. We also got to remember that this murderer, ( I can't use his name because he does not deserve any credit for his heinous act) is mentally ill but who REFUSED HIS MEDICATION ON PURPOSE, So in other words HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING.

361 El Guape  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 11:42:32am

re: #351 Charles

To those people who have a problem understanding the immorality of cold-blooded murder in the name of God, I suggest you sign up for an account at Free Republic where you'll be among like-minded bloodthirsty morons.

I'm thinking you are addressing my previous comment. If you are, I think you missed what I was trying to ask. I wasn't suggesting that murder in the name of God is not immoral - there is no such thing as murder in the name of God. People that claim they are killing in the name of God are attempting to shirk responsibility for their immoral actions. As God commands us not to murder, it is impossible for one to murder in the name of God.

What I am suggesting is that without God there are no absolute morals, and therefore the people who are indignant about Tiller's death and don't believe in God are irrational because they have nothing to base their morality upon. If they try to base morality on the survival of the species, then by that morality, killing Tiller was good for the human race.

Simply put, morals don't exist in a universe without God.

362 Salamantis  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 3:41:49pm

re: #361 El Guape

To those people who have a problem understanding the immorality of cold-blooded murder in the name of God, I suggest you sign up for an account at Free Republic where you'll be among like-minded bloodthirsty morons.

I'm thinking you are addressing my previous comment. If you are, I think you missed what I was trying to ask. I wasn't suggesting that murder in the name of God is not immoral - there is no such thing as murder in the name of God. People that claim they are killing in the name of God are attempting to shirk responsibility for their immoral actions. As God commands us not to murder, it is impossible for one to murder in the name of God.

What I am suggesting is that without God there are no absolute morals, and therefore the people who are indignant about Tiller's death and don't believe in God are irrational because they have nothing to base their morality upon. If they try to base morality on the survival of the species, then by that morality, killing Tiller was good for the human race.

Simply put, morals don't exist in a universe without God.

Wrong. Buddhists, Taoists, and Confucians, as well as atheists, are moral, and they don't believe in God; pagans and Hindus are moral, and believe in several of them.

Religions do not give any morals to people that they did not either get from the societies and cultures in which they arose and emerged, or got from prior religions who themselves got them from such societies and cultures.


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