Anti-Abortion Group Claims Scott Roeder is ‘Not One of Us’

US News • Views: 5,044

lifenews.com is trying like crazy to distance themselves from Scott Roeder, the anti-abortion nutjob suspected of killing Dr. George Tiller; look at how they distort the truth in this article: Suspected George Tiller Shooter Scott Roeder Won’t be Charged Today in Killing.

Washington, DC (lifenews.com) — Local authorities are not expected to file charges today against Kansas resident Scott Roeder in connection with the shooting death of late-term abortion practitioner George Tiller. Roeder is suspected of killing Tiller Sunday morning at his church with a handgun.

Roeder, who has no connections with the pro-life movement but has ties with anti-government militia groups, is currently detained at Sedgwick County Jail on suspicion of murder and aggravated assault. …

Roeder, a 51-year-old white male, was arrested near the Gardner exit of Interstate 35 south of Kansas City hours after the shooting.

As has been the case with most previous incidents of abortion-related violence, Roeder appears to have an affiliation with extremist political groups but not with the mainstream pro-life movement.

It is true that Roeder had connections to extremist militia groups like the Freemen and the “sovereign citizen” movement.

But as we’ve shown here at LGF, Roeder also posted comments at anti-abortion websites, subscribed to anti-abortion magazines (including one that advocated the murder of doctors who perform abortions), and when he was arrested he had a Post-It note in his car containing the phone number of Operation Rescue. Exactly how do you qualify to have “connections to the pro-life” movement, if this doesn’t do it?

Note to anti-abortion groups: man up and take responsibility for Scott Roeder. He’s one of yours. Obviously, not everyone who belongs to a “pro-life” group will go to such extreme lengths as Scott Roeder apparently did, but it’s long past time for you folks to start dialing down the rhetoric and acting more responsibly — before anyone else is hurt or killed in a shooting or an abortion clinic bombing.

And if you don’t believe this is necessary, here’s a video created by Operation Rescue. The apparent purpose of the video: to encourage the murder of Dr. George Tiller. At one point, an onscreen message says: “Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes”

WARNING! The video is appallingly gruesome. Don’t click the “play” button if you are squeamish or unprepared for what you’re going to see.

video.google.com

(Via Andrew Sullivan.)

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390 comments
1 Chicken Kiev  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:05:41am

Yeah well...

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:05:54am

They can trot out the "No True Scotsman" fallacy all they want, it won't work.

3 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:08:15am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

They can trot out the "No True Scotsman" fallacy all they want, it won't work.

It just sucks to be anti-abortion today. There's no way we can claim that he wasn't connected to the pro-life movement, and yet many pro-lifers rightly abhor both what he did and the line of thinking that led him to that extreme.

4 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:08:24am

SICK; JUST SICK

5 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:08:46am

He was part of the pro-life movement's fringe. Unless people are going to say that Operation Rescue - for all that it says it is non-violent - isn't pretty radical? It certainly embraces tactics that any group that isn't radical and rabid would eschew.

6 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:09:05am

Do we know if Roeder was actually a member of Operation Rescue (or a similiar group)?

7 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:09:06am
8 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:09:48am

If you say something enough times...

9 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:10:06am

re: #7 Iron Fist

Via Andrew Sullivan?

Even a stopped clock... (etc.)

10 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:10:17am

re: #3 thedopefishlives

It just sucks to be anti-abortion today. There's no way we can claim that he wasn't connected to the pro-life movement, and yet many pro-lifers rightly abhor both what he did and the line of thinking that led him to that extreme.

Long time past for pro-lifers to be a "moderate Muslim" and condemn the actions of the jihadis, as you did.

11 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:10:28am

re: #3 thedopefishlives

It just sucks to be anti-abortion today. There's no way we can claim that he wasn't connected to the pro-life movement, and yet many pro-lifers rightly abhor both what he did and the line of thinking that led him to that extreme.

Take some comfort from the fact that - in the end - your abhorrence of that line does distinguish you from Roeder and those trying to pretend he wasn't on the radical fringe of several different movements.

12 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:10:28am

re: #7 Iron Fist

Via Andrew Sullivan?

Yes, that's where I found the video.

13 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:11:28am

re: #6 Occasional Reader

Do we know if Roeder was actually a member of Operation Rescue (or a similiar group)?

He commented on their boards...and I have no idea how Operation Rescue supports itself.

Time to go visit Guidestar!

14 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:11:37am

re: #3 thedopefishlives

There's no way we can claim that he wasn't connected to the pro-life movement...

But that's exactly what Lifenews.com is doing.

15 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:13:05am

re: #10 FurryOldGuyJeans

Long time past for pro-lifers to be a "moderate Muslim" and condemn the actions of the jihadis, as you did.

Agreed, but it may have to be done on a group by group basis. I can see groups like Birthright condemning him, but as for Operation Rescue, I don't see them comdemning him.

16 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:13:13am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

They can trot out the "No True Scotsman" fallacy all they want, it won't work.

I hope I'm not reading that to mean
"No true right to life advocate can claim they abhor this murder."

17 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:13:24am

re: #14 Charles

But that's exactly what Lifenews.com is doing.

Then they're doing it in vain because you cannot prove a negative.

You'd think they would know that.

...unless the lady doth protest too much?

18 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:14:13am

re: #14 Charles

But that's exactly what Lifenews.com is doing.

It won't work.

They just don't want him to be associated. For some, it's too painful because it makes them feel sick and dirty, for others, it's just too bad for their public image.

19 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:15:17am

re: #15 Honorary Yooper

Agreed, but it may have to be done on a group by group basis. I can see groups like Birthright condemning him, but as for Operation Rescue, I don't see them comdemning him.

Better to start with individuals so then groups follow.

20 nofixedabode  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:17:58am
The apparent purpose of the video: to solicit the murder of Dr. George Tiller.


I don't see that. Take a breath, Charles. Please.

21 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:18:01am

re: #10 FurryOldGuyJeans

Long time past for pro-lifers to be a "moderate Muslim" and condemn the actions of the jihadis, as you did.

I think if you look through the LGF threads on this you will see a

number

of pro-lifers who condemned this action.

I am pro-life, and I utterly and completely condemn this murder. No human is judge. What is right and proper is for us is to work to encourage people to choose life, and ensure that services and support are available and offered to those who do choose that.

I saw more than one post claiming that pro-lifers (not some but just "pro-lifers") were "spinning" like crazy in their condemnation of this action.

Well, if we condemn the action but are seen to be "spinning" - what exactly do you want? What sort of "proof" would you take from me that I do indeed completely denounce this murder and condemn murder as being an appropriate action to be taken against those who provide abortions? Tell me what it is you want?

22 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:18:21am

re: #3 thedopefishlives

It just sucks to be anti-abortion today. There's no way we can claim that he wasn't connected to the pro-life movement, and yet many pro-lifers rightly abhor both what he did and the line of thinking that led him to that extreme.

Sucks to be in Wichita today.....atmosphere at work is tense to say the least.

23 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:19:34am

Those were "late term abortions" in the video, I take it?

24 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:19:42am

re: #21 reine.de.tout

No human is judge.

Not even judges?

25 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:19:46am

re: #14 Charles

Anyone with half a brain knows it won't work. Aside from the documented evidence that you've shown, it's no secret that the pro-life movement has been a haven for extreme right-wing radicals since Roe. It's why I specifically choose not to have anything to do with them; their rhetoric is far too extreme, and many of the groups have a history of grossly unwarranted violence. And now this.

26 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:19:49am

re: #21 reine.de.tout

You are one of the "moderate Muslims" I was referring to, reine. Your condemnations were instantaneous and unceasing.

27 MrPaulRevere  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:20:35am

Charles is 100% correct here. I have a lot to say about this but analog economic activity beckons.

28 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:20:46am

Even if he wasn't a member of Operation Rescue, their over-the-top rhetoric ("Wanted Posters" for example) certainly encouraged him and made him feel that they supported him.

It's one thing to call for changing the law, or even protests, but wanted posters go beyond the line into calling for murder.

So the extreme groups share blame, whether they accept it or not.

29 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:21:23am

So lets say a long time poster here, maybe even someone that donated to LGF.... suppose they go on a shooting spree of some leftist organization........are we all here complicit? Our disdain of such an act is suspect?

30 midwestgak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:21:29am

re: #4 gtrs

SICK; JUST SICK

I do not want to watch the video. I'm guessing it shows a real abortion. If you watched it, can you please describe whats in it, vaguely?

31 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:21:42am

re: #24 Occasional Reader

Not even judges?

Ah, judges will judge a person's ACTIONS based on law.
I was talking about you judging the merits of a person's life and making a decision to do away with that life. Not in our hands, IMO.

32 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:22:24am

re: #21 reine.de.tout

I know you condemn it reine, I think we all do.
What I'd like to see is the horrible online comments stop. I would have expected a few whackos and trolls to spew nastiness, but at local news websites its running ~50% of the comments. Even the more calm comments tend towards saying he had it coming. Its doesn't speak well for the pro-life movement. At all.

33 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:22:33am

Well, take this with a grain of salt, but according to DU, they may be scrubbing references to Roeder on the Operation Rescue pages.

34 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:22:44am

re: #21 reine.de.tout

What sort of "proof" would you take from me that I do indeed completely denounce this murder and condemn murder as being an appropriate action to be taken against those who provide abortions?

I won't be satisfied until you, personally, have dragged Roeder out of the jailhouse and...

(Just kidding)

I agree with you that we need to be careful with the broad brush here. We've already seen pro-life groups forthrightly denounce this murder.

35 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:22:59am

re: #29 IslandLibertarian

So lets say a long time poster here, maybe even someone that donated to LGF.... suppose they go on a shooting spree of some leftist organization........are we all here complicit? Our disdain of such an act is suspect?

No True Lizard would do such a thing!

/ducks

36 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:22:59am

re: #26 FurryOldGuyJeans

You are one of the "moderate Muslims" I was referring to, reine. Your condemnations were instantaneous and unceasing.

I'm too emotionally involved here on this and prolly need to get up and go to the grocery store. Even though I don't need anything LOL.

37 Ben Hur  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:23:23am

re: #30 midwestgak

I do not want to watch the video. I'm guessing it shows a real abortion. If you watched it, can you please describe whats in it, vaguely?

Headless babies.

38 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:23:40am

re: #20 nofixedabode watch the video closely

39 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:24:03am

re: #32 KansasMom

I know you condemn it reine, I think we all do.
What I'd like to see is the horrible online comments stop. I would have expected a few whackos and trolls to spew nastiness, but at local news websites its running ~50% of the comments. Even the more calm comments tend towards saying he had it coming. Its doesn't speak well for the pro-life movement. At all.

No, it does not speak well for THOSE PEOPLE who are commenting, nor for the sites that accept those comments and let them stand.
Not one bit.
Very upsetting
One cannot be pro-life, and then OK with murder. No way.

40 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:24:14am

re: #20 nofixedabode

I don't see that. Take a breath, Charles. Please.

A message in the video says: "Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes..."

How else would you interpret that?

41 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:24:15am

re: #29 IslandLibertarian

So lets say a long time poster here, maybe even someone that donated to LGF.... suppose they go on a shooting spree of some leftist organization........are we all here complicit? Our disdain of such an act is suspect?

The difference here is that calls to violence are immediately rejected, both by Lizards and by Charles. They aren't part of the main message of this blog.

42 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:24:37am

"Connections to the pro-life movement" is a loaded phrase. It means nothing.

43 Wild Knight  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:24:39am

(OT) Hey people, anyone know what temperature of water is best suited to the Portuguese Man-of-War? I live in the Mediterranean and everyone is cacking their trousers because one or two of the critters of have been spotted in the inland sea. Some are claiming that it's all the fault of global warming, others are claiming that this thingie has ventured into waters "normally considered too warm for them". I'm getting a bit confused...

44 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:24:48am

re: #33 lawhawk

Well, take this with a grain of salt, but according to DU, they may be scrubbing references to Roeder on the Operation Rescue pages.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if they did. It's standard operating procedure for any group - left or right - caught out when the spotlight comes roving their way.

45 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:25:09am

I'm not going to watch the video immediately. I'm not really in a space where I feel like seeing that at the moment.

I'll say this about Operation Rescue though: I've seen them viciously harassing women as they walk into and out of abortion clinics. For most women, having an abortion is a deeply upsetting and traumatic experience. Operation Rescue's technique of intimidating and further traumatizing people during a vulnerable time is vile, inflammatory, and counterproductive, and it has no place in the debate.

I appreciate and respect the widely-held position that abortion is wrong. I know that most people who hold this opinion do so out of love and respect for life, not out of hatred. I understand that many pro-lifers do not agree with Operation Rescue's harassment of women. But by behaving as they have, in my opinion, Operation Rescue has removed itself from any place in civilized society.

46 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:25:12am

re: #30 midwestgak
it is not something i reccommend watching BUT if you do be prepared; SICK and operation rescue calls for signing an on-line petition at the end; wonder if roeder signed that petition?

47 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:25:14am

re: #36 reine.de.tout

I'm too emotionally involved here on this and prolly need to get up and go to the grocery store. Even though I don't need anything LOL.

lgf has been an island of sanity amidst the sea of kookery where so many other blogs have many commenters accepting of Roeder's actions. Here it has been an aberration.

48 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:26:26am

re: #32 KansasMom

I know you condemn it reine, I think we all do.
What I'd like to see is the horrible online comments stop. I would have expected a few whackos and trolls to spew nastiness, but at local news websites its running ~50% of the comments. Even the more calm comments tend towards saying he had it coming. Its doesn't speak well for the pro-life movement. At all.

Yep. It's beyond disgusting. There's a huge amount of approval for the murder of Dr. Tiller being voiced all over the internet.

49 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:26:44am

"The loss of Tiller has left the pro-life movement rudderless."

I think I'll run that one up the mast, and see who salutes.

/please don't keel me, it's just a joke

50 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:27:16am

re: #40 Charles

A message in the video says: "Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes..."

How else would you interpret that?

I have to agree with you. "Together we can put an end to abortion" could just mean undertaking peaceful demonstrations and legal activism. "Together we can put an end to George Tiller's practices" could mean the same thing. But "we can put an end to George Tiller," well, that sounds like incitement to violence to me.

I didn't watch the video. I'm going by your quote, and assuming it was in proper context.

51 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:28:18am

Just as an aside, apparently this Roeder guy was a real whackjob. Just found this while looking at the newspaper after lunch:

Suspect in Kansas abortion doctor's slaying reportedly belonged to anti-government militia

It was updated about 15-20 minutes ago. I'm not going to post the whole article, but there were some interesting parts of it I will discuss below.

Roeder reportedly made a jailhouse visit to the activist who shot Tiller in 1993. Kansas City-area militia members said he was a member of their anti-government groups, and a man by his name was stopped by authorities in 1996 for driving with an improper license plate that read "Sovereign private property."

Roeder seems like a far-right extremist, IMHO. I find it interesting that he paid a visit to a guy who shot Tiller. Looks like Roeder may have been planning this for quite some time.

Kansas prosecutors tried Tiller this year on charges of breaking a law governing late-term abortions, but Tiller prevailed. In March, he was acquitted of charges that he broke a law requiring a second doctor to affirm that a late-term abortion was necessary to preserve the health of the woman.

James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family and a longtime opponent of abortion, today referred to the recent case as he denounced Tiller's slaying.

"Tiller recently faced serious charges related to the killing of babies in violation of the law, by the most grotesque procedures administered without anesthetics or compassion," Dobson said in a statement. "We profoundly regretted the outcome of his legal case, believing the doctor had the blood of countless babies on his hands. Nevertheless, he was acquitted by the court and declared 'not guilty' in the eyes of the law. That is our system, and we honor it.

"Our condolences are extended to the Tiller family. The person or persons responsible for his death should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."

Seems like the recent acquittal may have been what prompted Roeder to proceed with his actions. However, from the above, I would say that any First-Degree Murder charges may be very well warranted based on Roeder's previous history. I will give Dobson (as much as I dislike the man) some credit for at least acknowledging the rule of law regarding both Tiller and Roeder.

52 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:28:34am

re: #20 nofixedabode

Charles is right! (I wasn't going to watch it until you posted that)

53 Baier  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:29:05am

re: #48 Charles

Yep. It's beyond disgusting. There's a huge amount of approval for the murder of Dr. Tiller being voiced all over the internet.

/Good thing the GOP roundly rejects and tries not to be associated with these groups.

54 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:29:06am

re: #47 FurryOldGuyJeans a lot of folks at kos were actually praising lgf yesterday for its sane response to the tragedy

55 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:29:36am

re: #42 jamgarr

"Connections to the pro-life movement" is a loaded phrase. It means nothing.

How about his posts on Op.Rescue's message board? And on Charge Tiller?

Do those mean something, or not?re: #29 IslandLibertarian

So lets say a long time poster here, maybe even someone that donated to LGF.... suppose they go on a shooting spree of some leftist organization........are we all here complicit? Our disdain of such an act is suspect?

Unfortunately, that would be wondered about. It doesn't matter how upset and horrified we would be; that person would still be associated with LGF, and people would ask.

And no matter how carefully a statement was worded, some people would twist it into not being a condemnation.

56 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:29:37am

re: #50 Last Mohican

I watched, he's got the context. It's in print on the screen.

57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:29:41am

re: #50 Last Mohican

Charles is dead on.

58 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:30:29am

re: #45 Last Mohican

I'll repeat that a true Operation "Rescue" would give support, both emotional and financial, to pregnant women who were thinking of an abortion, to help them bring their babies to full term, and then help in getting started or in putting the baby up for adoption, whatever the mother chose.

I have heard of Efrat in Israel doing this, and lizards have mentioned organizations in the US.
And this type of organization, by its very nature, wouldn't be trying to kill anyone.

59 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:30:39am

re: #49 Occasional Reader

/please don't keel me, it's just a joke

is this really appropriate? this is a serious, not laughing matter.

60 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:31:27am

re: #41 Kosh's Shadow

The difference here is that calls to violence are immediately rejected, both by Lizards and by Charles. They aren't part of the main message of this blog.

True, but the pro-life "movement," as it were, is large and complex. The particular right-wing sites that Charles has been quoting are all culpable, because they sanction the ugly words of hatred that have been pouring out of them since yesterday. However, let's be careful not to ascribe the same sickening hatred to the entire pro-life movement, much of which has come out strongly and immediately against Tiller's murder.

61 mockery jones  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:31:45am
"Note to anti-abortion groups: man up and take responsibility for Scott Roeder. He’s one of yours. Obviously, not everyone who belongs to a “pro-life” group will go to such extreme lengths as Scott Roeder apparently did, but it’s long past time for you folks to start dialing down the rhetoric and acting more responsibly — before anyone else is hurt or killed in a shooting or an abortion clinic bombing."

Is there really any point in asking someone who firmly believes that abortion equates to the murder of children to tone down the rhetoric? Or to put a finer point on it, why would anyone that holds to that belief system be inclined to listen? Do you really think they care about what happens to the people who, in their view, have turned infanticide into an industry?

62 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:31:46am

re: #54 gtrs

a lot of folks at kos were actually praising lgf yesterday for its sane response to the tragedy

Their praise is wind in the branches.

63 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:31:50am

re: #59 IslandLibertarian

is this really appropriate? this is a serious, not laughing matter.

Agreed.

64 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:06am

also; i hope folks listen to the music being played in the video

65 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:14am

re: #55 Dianna

How about his posts on Op.Rescue's message board?

As a general principle, I'd say that describing an individual who merely posts to a message board of an organization as having "connections" to that organization is somewhat thin. Not literally untrue... but thin.

That said, I just don't know what other substance there is to connections between Tiller and Op. Res. (PLEASE don't call it "OR" folks! Think of the children me!)

66 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:16am

How can you be Pro-Life and NOT condemn this murder? The name is completely contradictory to the act. Almost as hypocritical as a late term abortion doctor being devout church member.

67 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:40am

re: #55 Dianna

"Frequently posts on littlegreenfootballs.com" is not the same as "connections to the pro-life movement". One statement means nothing - the other is a statement of fact.

68 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:41am

re: #59 IslandLibertarian

There is a lot of "whistling past a graveyard" here. Helps with sanity.

69 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:47am

re: #40 Charles

A message in the video says: "Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes..."

How else would you interpret that?

Given the order of that list...I could definitely interpret that as a call to murder. It's not specific, but it probably wouldn't take much of a mental twist to see it as an injunction to violent action.

70 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:32:56am

re: #55 Dianna

Unfortunately, that would be wondered about. It doesn't matter how upset and horrified we would be; that person would still be associated with LGF, and people would ask.

And no matter how carefully a statement was worded, some people would twist it into not being a condemnation.

Yes, what the host allows to be said will reflect on him (or her, or it as the case may be).

71 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:33:12am

re: #59 IslandLibertarian

/please don't keel me, it's just a joke

is this really appropriate? this is a serious, not laughing matter.

We joke about all sorts of serious matters here, all the time.

72 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:33:54am

re: #28 Kosh's Shadow

Even if he wasn't a member of Operation Rescue, their over-the-top rhetoric ("Wanted Posters" for example) certainly encouraged him and made him feel that they supported him.

It's one thing to call for changing the law, or even protests, but wanted posters go beyond the line into calling for murder.

So the extreme groups share blame, whether they accept it or not.

Their over-the-top rhetoric is one reason why over-the-top comments should be avoided. Some nut will act on the over-the-top rhetoric eventually. These groups have called for the death of these doctors far, far too many times. It is only a matter of time until someone acts on such rhetoric, and why such rhetoric should be taken seriously by those targeted and law enforcement. Such rhetoric is exactly why Charles has deleted many comments in the past, and has banned certain commentors.

73 inkling  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:34:31am

Equating Roeder with the pro-life movement is as silly as equating the Unabomer with the environmentalist movement or today's gunman at the Arkansas recruiting station with the anti-war movement. Each were crazed, depraved outliers.

74 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:34:56am

re: #49 Occasional Reader

You are just hoping to sail right through this whole debate without showing your true colors. ;)

PS: A little levity during crises always has a calming effect. And calm reasoning produces wise decisions.

75 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:35:20am

re: #61 mockery jones

"Note to anti-abortion groups: man up and take responsibility for Scott Roeder. He’s one of yours. Obviously, not everyone who belongs to a “pro-life” group will go to such extreme lengths as Scott Roeder apparently did, but it’s long past time for you folks to start dialing down the rhetoric and acting more responsibly — before anyone else is hurt or killed in a shooting or an abortion clinic bombing."

Is there really any point in asking someone who firmly believes that abortion equates to the murder of children to tone down the rhetoric? Or to put a finer point on it, why would anyone that holds to that belief system be inclined to listen? Do you really think they care about what happens to the people who, in their view, have turned infanticide into an industry?

All movements are made up of individuals. Maybe the group can't be turned, but maybe individuals can see a different perspective and leave or work to change the group.

76 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:35:24am

re: #65 Occasional Reader

That said, I just don't know what other substance there is to connections between Tiller and Op. Res. (PLEASE don't call it "OR" folks! Think of the children me!)

Sorry, its called OR all the time around here.....I'm used to seeing it. Actually threw me for a loop the first time (a while back) I saw somebody referring to you as OR. Bummer of a nickname for your nickname.

77 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:35:35am

re: #70 reine.de.tout

Yes, what the host allows to be said will reflect on him (or her, or it as the case may be).

But that's a slightly different point. If Roeder advocated violence on the Op. Resc. boards (and was not deleted), then that is definitely a point against them (again, I don't know if he did or not). But if he merely posted messages opposing abortion; then, one day, kills someone... the "connection" between him and the organization is less substantive.

78 twincitiesgirl  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:36:00am

I think the guy watched too many of the pro life videos and completely lost it. The pro life spokesperson who said he actually helped the pro abortion side is right, he most definitely did.

Someone just gunned down two military recruiters in Arkansas, one of them is dead. The world is full of crazy people.

79 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:36:24am

re: #70 reine.de.tout

Yes, what the host allows to be said will reflect on him (or her, or it as the case may be).

Hi reine! I couldn't agree more, which is why I'm absolutely delighted when Charles and/or Stinky give offenders the stick, and do so as quickly as possible. I love posting and reading here at LGF, because of the quality of the lizards. And, as I've said before, I generally don't down ding posters unless the post appears to promote or condone violence.

80 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:36:51am

re: #60 Last Mohican

However, let's be careful not to ascribe the same sickening hatred to the entire pro-life movement, much of which has come out strongly and immediately against Tiller's murder.

That's why I wrote:

Obviously, not everyone who belongs to a “pro-life” group will go to such extreme lengths as Scott Roeder apparently did...

However, it's not just "right-wing" sites where you can find disgusting comments applauding the murder. They're all over mainstream news sites that allow comments, too. Thousands upon thousands of comments saying "Yay, murder!"

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:37:01am

re: #73 inkling


Each were crazed, depraved outliers.

Agreed. Watch the video. What does a crazed, depraved outlier do with the information provided in that video?

Don't know you, but you made a good point.

82 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:37:28am

Abortion is a private issue, and a personal choice for people to make. We are each individuals and we make our own laws to live by concerning these matters. Therefore, the consequences of our actions are ours alone. Too many people joining "movements" these days, trying to dictate others lives. Too many people riding the crazy train.

83 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:37:29am

re: #73 inkling

Equating Roeder with the pro-life movement is as silly as equating the Unabomer with the environmentalist movement or today's gunman at the Arkansas recruiting station with the anti-war movement. Each were crazed, depraved outliers.

Yes, but they did associate themselves with these groups. That is a problem with each of these groups. They do not try to prevent member of their own from committing such acts. In fact, some of them encourage it, whether is be anti-abortion, anti-war, or environmentalism.

84 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:37:30am

re: #16 IslandLibertarian

I hope I'm not reading that to mean
"No true right to life advocate can claim they abhor this murder."

As long as we're on the subject of fallacies: "false dichotomy". "Either you're pro-choice, and then you have to be in favor of aborting viable fetuses, or you're pro-life and then even the morning-after pill is murder."

85 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:37:53am

re: #42 jamgarr
in this instance, i would call it a DELIBERATE lie

86 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:38:34am

re: #45 Last Mohican


I'll say this about Operation Rescue though: I've seen them viciously harassing women as they walk into and out of abortion clinics. For most women, having an abortion is a deeply upsetting and traumatic experience. Operation Rescue's technique of intimidating and further traumatizing people during a vulnerable time is vile, inflammatory, and counterproductive, and it has no place in the debate.

I have seen this, too, as well as the fanatical expressions of rapture on the faces of Operation Rescue protestors who reduce a terrified young woman to tears. They absolutely DO NOT help a pro-life position, which should be about compassion, alternatives, and support; not threats, intimidation, and murder.

87 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #82 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Abortion is a private issue, and a personal choice for people to make. We are each individuals and we make our own laws to live by concerning these matters. Therefore, the consequences of our actions are ours alone. Too many people joining "movements" these days, trying to dictate others lives. Too many people riding the crazy train.


As private as two can get - too bad the one who dies doesn't get to put in his 2-cents worth.

88 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:38:54am

re: #66 Russkilitlover

I strongly object to anyone judging another person's hypocrisy or lack thereof.

89 jaunte  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:39:13am

Interesting article here about the law and the balance of free speech vs. incitement to violence:


(snip)
What does this mean for the Scheidler case? Remember that Scheidler and his co-defendants were not accused of committing any violent acts. Instead, according to the New York Times, NOW attorney Fay Clayton charged that they created a climate conducive to violence. Creating or changing a climate of opinion or emotion, however, is precisely what political protesters aim to do; it is protected activity. Did Scheidler do more? He allegedly told his followers, “You can try for fifty years to do it the nice way or you can do it next week the nasty way.” Whether this was mere advocacy, like Charles Evers’s threat to break the necks of people who did not observe the boycott, or direct incitement to imminent violence, is a difficult question of fact. Only if Scheidler’s remarks constituted unprotected incitement to violence can he be held individually liable for their consequences. But “precision of regulation” is required: neither he nor his organization nor any of its members should be punished for any of the protected activities in which they engaged. RICO is a very blunt instrument; the First Amendment requires a scalpel.[Link: www.dissentmagazine.org...]
90 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:39:52am

re: #73 inkling

Equating Roeder with the pro-life movement is as silly as equating the Unabomer with the environmentalist movement or today's gunman at the Arkansas recruiting station with the anti-war movement. Each were crazed, depraved outliers.

Haven't seen any of the info on the recruiter shooter. The last I read, they weren't releasing any of the names yet.

91 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:40:07am

re: #85 gtrs

in this instance, i would call it a DELIBERATE lie

On whose part?

92 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:40:42am

re: #77 Occasional Reader

But that's a slightly different point. If Roeder advocated violence on the Op. Resc. boards (and was not deleted), then that is definitely a point against them (again, I don't know if he did or not). But if he merely posted messages opposing abortion; then, one day, kills someone... the "connection" between him and the organization is less substantive.

Yes.
But you know, what he posted there was creepy - let's all go attend services at that church and confront the congregation. Weird.

I would much prefer a "let's put our resources together and make it as comfortable as possible for a pregnant woman to choose life" approach.

93 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:40:59am

A worthwhile read....
How I (and Other "Pro-Life" Leaders) Contributed to Dr. Tiller's Murder

By Frank Schaeffer

My late father and I share the blame (with many others) for the murder of Dr. George Tiller the abortion doctor gunned down on Sunday. Until I got out of the religious right (in the mid-1980s) and repented of my former hate-filled rhetoric I was both a leader of the so-called pro-life movement and a part of a Republican Party hate machine masquerading as the moral conscience of America.

94 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:41:01am

re: #48 Charles

Yep. It's beyond disgusting. There's a huge amount of approval for the murder of Dr. Tiller being voiced all over the internet.

The Operation Rescue/Operation Save America people sure haven't wasted any time showing approval for the murder while judging Tiller's church as being apostate.

No, I won't link to their website, you can do a search to find it all on your own.

FYI - Operation Rescue's website doesn't even return a 403 error any more, they are just plain gone from the web.

95 Shug  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:41:05am

I watched the video and I agree with Charles that it is meant to incite violence.
The music chosen is a violent music.
The images are intentionally graphic.

It confirms my thoughts about Tiller and what he was doing and it should disgust every person who watches it, but it appeals to those who would do what Roeder did and for this, I think Operation Rescue should be charged as an accessory to murder

96 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:41:14am

re: #58 Kosh's Shadow

I'll repeat that a true Operation "Rescue" would give support, both emotional and financial, to pregnant women who were thinking of an abortion, to help them bring their babies to full term, and then help in getting started or in putting the baby up for adoption, whatever the mother chose.

I have heard of Efrat in Israel doing this, and lizards have mentioned organizations in the US.
And this type of organization, by its very nature, wouldn't be trying to kill anyone.

Absolutely spot on. Both the pro-life and the pro-choice "movements" are so extreme they lack any common sense.

97 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:41:25am

re: #67 jamgarr

I have spent a lot of time trying not to reason in advance of my facts since yesterday morning. But Roeder associated himself with the radical fringe of the pro-life movement.

He posted on their forum. He posted on Charge Tiller.

That is a statement of fact. Is that enough for you?

98 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:42:16am

re: #92 reine.de.tout

But you know, what he posted there was creepy - let's all go attend services at that church and confront the congregation. Weird.

Agreed that it's a little creepy, but it's not advocating anything illegal. If that's the worst thing he posted (and I'm prepared to be proven wrong), then Op. Resc. can plausibly say "we had no idea he would do something like this."

99 Last Mohican  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:42:18am

re: #80 Charles

However, it's not just "right-wing" sites where you can find disgusting comments applauding the murder. They're all over mainstream news sites that allow comments, too. Thousands upon thousands of comments saying "Yay, murder!"

I've been discouraged to see that, too. And I thank you for illuminating the full volume of ugliness emanating from the "right wing" sites. Like your creationism threads, this has made me aware of a terrible side of my culture that I wouldn't have thought was as large as it is.

When there are as many people as there are applauding Tiller's murder, and high-profile, well-organized groups like Operation Rescue whose whole game plan is incitement to hostility and arguably violence, it's easy to see the danger of someone like Roeder snapping and committing murder.

100 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:43:00am

re: #97 Dianna

He posted on Charge Tiller.

What is "Charge Tiller"?

101 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:43:23am

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Yes, but they did associate themselves with these groups. That is a problem with each of these groups. They do not try to prevent member of their own from committing such acts. In fact, some of them encourage it, whether is be anti-abortion, anti-war, or environmentalism.

How, in theory, would a group of citizens prevent another citizen from doing anything, without breaking laws?

Not encouraging them is another matter.

However, an abortion results in a dead infant or fetus, depending on your POV and beliefs. If you are on the "infant" side, is a picture of the actual result of an abortion automatically encouragement to violence? Or is it the added narration and text? Is one OK without the other? Or does there have to be an actual call to violence? (Charles pointed out one in this that doesn't leave much to the imagination as to its intent)

Free speech is a complex issue under the law.

Who is at fault for shooting someone is not.

102 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:43:37am

re: #92 reine.de.tout

{reine} Hope today finds you well

103 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:43:41am

re: #2 FurryOldGuyJeans

They can trot out the "No True Scotsman" fallacy all they want, it won't work.

Yes it will work. Look at how many times the "No True Scotsman" "logic" is trotted out on LGF to explain past Christian injustices? Look how many times it has been trotted out on LGF to explain Catholic priests indiscretions? And I could go on.

If it pops up here so much, a place where we have discussed this and delved into the fallacy of this kind of thinking, imagine how much stronger this faulty premiss will play to the general public.

It will work.

104 Eowyn2  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #83 Honorary Yooper

Yes, but they did associate themselves with these groups. That is a problem with each of these groups. They do not try to prevent member of their own from committing such acts. In fact, some of them encourage it, whether is be anti-abortion, anti-war, or environmentalism.


However, most of them (even the Peta whackos) will marginalize the most violent in their groups and that, in turn, makes the perp even more 'alone' and paranoid.

105 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:43:56am

re: #100 Occasional Reader

What is "Charge Tiller"?

My guess is that it was a forum devoted to trying to get Tiller charged with murder.

106 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:43:58am

re: #88 Dianna

I strongly object to anyone judging another person's hypocrisy or lack thereof.

I don't know what religion he was - nor do I care (although I'd be shocked out of my socks if he was Catholic). I just find it very hard to reconcile how someone can perform late term abortions and have no qualms about active participation in a church. I just don't see it other than hypocrisy - whether for a clear conscience or other reasons.

107 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:44:17am

re: #100 Occasional Reader

What is "Charge Tiller"?

It's a site with a petition that George Tiller be charged with a number of crimes. It's listed at the end of the video, too.

108 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:45:10am

re: #80 Charles

However, it's not just "right-wing" sites where you can find disgusting comments applauding the murder. They're all over mainstream news sites that allow comments, too. Thousands upon thousands of comments saying "Yay, murder!"

That is the sickening part. There's just so many more people than I ever expected celebrating this. If this were truly a fringe movement, you'd think there would be less comments. Roeder was a fringe lunatic, no doubt. However the huge amount of support for his actions does reflect poorly on the pro-life movement in general.

109 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:45:11am

re: #33 lawhawk they started that yesterday as soon as they could

110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:45:12am

Being the proud owner of a penis, I have always stayed mightily away from the "A word" debate.

But I'll call a murderer out at any and every opportunity.

111 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:46:03am

re: #85 gtrs

in this instance, i would call it a DELIBERATE lie

Almost every time someone makes use of a meaningless phrase there is an ulterior motive. Other times it's just stupidity.

112 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:46:05am

re: #91 Occasional Reader
by the author of the article; lifenews.com

113 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:46:20am

re: #73 inkling

Equating Roeder with the pro-life movement is as silly as equating the Unabomer with the environmentalist movement or today's gunman at the Arkansas recruiting station with the anti-war movement. Each were crazed, depraved outliers.

Then what do you make of all the comments on news sites alone, saying "yay!"?

I don't equate Roeder with anyone - but I do wonder.

114 Gus  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:46:24am

Anti-Abortion Violence

This is directly from Wiki and valid.

Murders

In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least 9 people, including 5 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of the year before. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

June 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside of another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings, received a death sentence, and was executed September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi, who prior to his arrest was distributing pamphlets from Human Life International,[5] was arrested and confessed to the killings. He committed suicide in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.

October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.

May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed as he served as an usher at his church in Wichita, Kansas.

Anti-abortion violence seemed to have all but disappeared during the tenure of President Bush. In light of Tiller's murder, the current administration, and the recent events and protests surrounding President Obama's appearance Notre Dame signal a return to violence? Is there a cause and effect attributable to the party in power?

As of this morning President Obama has sent US Marshall's across the country for the protection of abortion providers.

115 S'latch  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:46:53am

re: #95 Shug

I don't think Operation Rescue can be an accessory to murder unless they had some knowledge of Roeder and his intention of murdering Dr. Tiller.

116 Egregious Philbin  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:47:27am

"One of us, one of us! Gabba Gabba Hey"

Interesting how quickly the radical groups are trying to distance themselves from a radical. I've been on a few boards in the last 24 hours and am shocked and sickened that some conservatives are applauding murder.

They are pro life, but will condone murder if its something they agree with.

Denser than lead, scary as hell, they will ensure that abortion be legal for a long, long time by their actions.

117 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:47:42am

re: #87 jamgarr

As private as two can get - too bad the one who dies doesn't get to put in his 2-cents worth.

Sometimes 2-cents worth is unspoken.

118 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:48:01am

re: #97 Dianna

I have spent a lot of time trying not to reason in advance of my facts since yesterday morning. But Roeder associated himself with the radical fringe of the pro-life movement.

He posted on their forum. He posted on Charge Tiller.

That is a statement of fact. Is that enough for you?


Enough for what?

119 Dave the.....  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:48:07am

And tree spikers are representative of the Sierra Club and the people who brought Molitov cocktails to St Paul last year (to throw into occupied police cars) are representative of the Democrat party.

120 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:48:27am

re: #58 Kosh's Shadow

I'll repeat that a true Operation "Rescue" would give support, both emotional and financial, to pregnant women who were thinking of an abortion, to help them bring their babies to full term, and then help in getting started or in putting the baby up for adoption, whatever the mother chose.

I have heard of Efrat in Israel doing this, and lizards have mentioned organizations in the US.
And this type of organization, by its very nature, wouldn't be trying to kill anyone.

I am familiar with Efrat, and it's an organization I take my hat off for. I had to explain to my wife (who is pro-choice: I was pro-life even in my most left-wing days) that they are a VERY different kettle of fish from the loudmouthed anti-abortion groups she knew in the USA. (I do know that at least the Catholic church has a similar organization in the USA, but it's one that appears to work discreetly, not one that grandstands in the media.)

121 avanti  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:48:31am

re: #62 FurryOldGuyJeans

Their praise is wind in the branches.


Better then the farts they normally send the conservatives way and a sign that they are occasionally rational.

122 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:48:45am

re: #111 jamgarr
here it may be both BUT, in my view, it is clearly a CYA statement and i would say a lie as well

123 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:49:08am

"nofixedabode" just emailed a "please delete me, let me go" message. So I've obligingly blocked his account.

124 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:49:15am

re: #93 Killgore Trout

I'm sorry, but that's infuriating propaganda. "Republican hate machine"? That's not persuasive. It's infuriating posturing.

125 spudly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:50:10am

It's too bad that the activists (on BOTH sides) cannot be less extreme. There is clearly a difference between early and late term abortion, for example (rationally, not from the religious POV, which tends towards absolutism).

Some sort of middle ground policy would end some of the horrors shown in that video (I'm neither "anti-abortion" nor "entirely "pro-abortion" BTW). If the late term procedure was banned (as it should be, IMO, there is virtually no medical reason for it), the ability to suborn a murder the way this video may well have would be very much more difficult—it's harder to raise the emotional level to homicidal violence over 16 cells than a clearly dismembered baby.

Such a centrist position would also be supported by substantial majorities of both parties, IMO (Ie: OK early with little if any restriction, not OK late-term... the middle, then it gets ugly, probably—but no more than the battle between camps is already).

126 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:50:17am

re: #102 HoosierHoops

{reine} Hope today finds you well

Yep, thanks {HH}

127 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:50:32am

re: #117 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Sometimes 2-cents worth is unspoken.


?

128 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:50:37am

re: #124 Dianna

I'm sorry, but that's infuriating propaganda. "Republican hate machine"? That's not persuasive. It's infuriating posturing.

Killgore has finally found work as the new on-the-scene reporter for KOS and Huffington.

129 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:50:49am

re: #95 Shug

I think Operation Rescue should be charged as an accessory to murder

Not being snarky here, just asking: What about Free Will?

I won't watch the video, so I can't see if they are explicitly "calling" for his murder, we put up with a lot of inflammatory speech, which can be pretty extreme (most of the 8 years of anti-Bush protests, for starters).

130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:51:04am

re: #123 Charles

Mebbe you should stop obliging them. Leave their account open. Make them crazy (er).

131 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:51:12am

re: #98 Occasional Reader

Agreed that it's a little creepy, but it's not advocating anything illegal. If that's the worst thing he posted (and I'm prepared to be proven wrong), then Op. Resc. can plausibly say "we had no idea he would do something like this."

Considering how very confrontational Op. Resc. is, you'd think they'd like that idea.

132 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:51:15am

re: #108 KansasMom

That is the sickening part. There's just so many more people than I ever expected celebrating this. If this were truly a fringe movement, you'd think there would be less comments. Roeder was a fringe lunatic, no doubt. However the huge amount of support for his actions does reflect poorly on the pro-life movement in general.

Indeed it does.

133 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:51:23am

Your stand on this issue Charles is simply honorable. Thank you very much for this.
I read such sick comments since yesterday, and what disturbed me a lot is people calling themselves "pro-life" and cheering the murder of someone. This is inquisition in a modern form.

134 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:51:24am

re: #120 Former Belgian

I am familiar with Efrat, and it's an organization I take my hat off for. I had to explain to my wife (who is pro-choice: I was pro-life even in my most left-wing days) that they are a VERY different kettle of fish from the loudmouthed anti-abortion groups she knew in the USA. (I do know that at least the Catholic church has a similar organization in the USA, but it's one that appears to work discreetly, not one that grandstands in the media.)

Catholic Charities.
Great organization.
Great work.

135 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:51:24am

The most outspoken, largest advocate of right to life is the Catholic Church.
Are they to be lumped in with OR?
The Pope?

136 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:51:32am

re: #121 avanti
there were many sincere posts praising the sane reaction here as opposed to freerepublic and the like; with links to both sites and quoted posts and such(some really vile posts from the other sites were quoted)

137 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:52:08am

re: #118 jamgarr

Enough for what?

You're being an ass. I answered your objection of "vagueness" with a specific action.

So, is that enough for you?

138 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:52:16am

re: #124 Dianna

I'm sorry, but that's infuriating propaganda. "Republican hate machine"? That's not persuasive. It's infuriating posturing.

IIRC, didn't the John Kerry for Prez campaign once issue an official press release which contained that phrase?

But of course, it's the Republicans who are "divisive".. never forget that, kids!

139 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:52:20am

re: #123 Charles

"nofixedabode" just emailed a "please delete me, let me go" message. So I've obligingly blocked his account.

What an incredibly lame flounce.

140 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:54:14am

re: #137 Dianna

You're being an ass. I answered your objection of "vagueness" with a specific action.

So, is that enough for you?


Lighten up, Francis. Read my posts. Had nothing to do with what your opinion is.

141 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:54:15am

re: #94 FurryOldGuyJeans
can you say SCRUB, SCRUB, SCRUB......... i think folks will come out of the woodwork with screen shots before the scrubbing took place at their site

142 S'latch  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:54:42am

re: #139 debutaunt

I don't think Charles is sharing the whole message. I suspect there was more to it.

143 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:54:43am

re: #123 Charles

"nofixedabode" just emailed a "please delete me, let me go" message. So I've obligingly blocked his account.

That's crazy..But you have to admit..pretty funny..I never understood the virtual suicide belt on a blog...
Hey Charles....

144 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:55:18am

re: #40 Charles

A message in the video says: "Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes..."

How else would you interpret that?

Well, they don't want to kill abortion, they want to stop it. I guess they wanted to stop Tiller too (from killing more fetuses).

Anyway -- thank God for the right to join crazy organizations like this (I mean especially if it really is all filled up with so many hateful 'right-wingers'). That way the FBI knows exactly where the nuts are. I'm being serious .... I always think these groups allow us to better identify and follow their members as the dangerous sickos they are.

Won't the organization (Operation Rescue), or those operating it, now face murder charges - if it did in fact solicit the murder of Dr. George Tiller?

145 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:55:18am

re: #125 spudly

If the late term procedure was banned (as it should be, IMO, there is virtually no medical reason for it)

As I understand it, Dr. Tiller was working under the Kansas law which required two doctors to sign off on the abortions as "medically necessary." That means the "virtually no medical reason" standard would result in women being killed or injured by their fetuses. How many of those cases are too many?

146 Dianna  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:55:29am

re: #140 jamgarr

Excuse me, but:

Fuck off.

147 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:55:47am

re: #139 debutaunt
i would doubt he even watched the video; its militancy is not even trying to be hidden in my view

148 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:57:03am

What I find really interesting is, that in the first hour of Rush Limbaugh's program this afternoon (we get the tape feed at noon), he has not once mentioned the murder, one way or another.

Here was a prime chance for the "water bearer" of the conservatives to make a balanced statement about this, but he doesn't even mention it.

No, I guess I can't claim tactic approval on his part, but his silence does nothing to help. This is one of the reason I don't consider Rush to be an entertainer, a commentator or a journalist. He is a hack, the lowest form of a media voice.

Worthless millionaire not really contributing anything to the betterment of mankind or this country. He's got a lot of people fooled.

149 midwestgak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:57:16am

re: #114 Gus 802

Anti-Abortion Violence


As of this morning President Obama has sent US Marshall's across the country for the protection of abortion providers.

That is scary! It shows another use of power to protect/inforce Obama's world view. That is scary!

150 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:57:46am

re: #146 Dianna

Excuse me, but:

Fuck off.


That's not very nice.

151 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:58:27am

re: #126 reine.de.tout

Yep, thanks {HH}

Wonderful.. I have a friend that passed away last night...A dear friend...
He was a 40 year old Speedway Policeman...He had a heart problem no one knew about...The funeral is Weds. at 11am.. I sit here crushed..
*wipes away tears*

152 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:58:33am

re: #135 IslandLibertarian

The most outspoken, largest advocate of right to life is the Catholic Church.
Are they to be lumped in with OR?
The Pope?

Some do "lump them in." This is from the article Killgore linked to above:

The same hate machine I was part of is still attacking all abortionists as "murderers." And today once again the "pro-life" leaders are busy ducking their personal responsibility for people acting on their words. The people who stir up the fringe never take responsibility. But I'd like to say on this day after a man was murdered in cold blood for preforming abortions that I -- and the people I worked with in the religious right, the Republican Party, the pro-life movement and the Roman Catholic Church, all contributed to this killing by our foolish and incendiary words.

I am very sorry.

153 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:58:35am

re: #150 jamgarr

That's not very nice.

Talking for myself, I don't suspect she meant it to be. Jerk.

154 S'latch  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:58:58am

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

"Worthless?"

The companies whose products he sells would probably disagree.

155 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:59:16am

re: #114 Gus 802
a prudent decision given the uproar

156 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:59:32am

re: #151 HoosierHoops

{Hoops}

157 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:59:32am

re: #153 Walter L. Newton

Talking for myself, I don't suspect she meant it to be. Jerk.


I guess you didn't read my posts either.

158 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:00:16pm

re: #149 midwestgak

That is scary! It shows another use of power to protect/inforce Obama's world view. That is scary!

Huh?

How is this "protecting/enforcing" Obama's "world view"? A doctor who did abortions was murdered yesterday. It seems perfectly appropriate for both state, local and federal law enforcement to enhance security for other possible targets.

159 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:00:38pm

re: #154 Lawrence Schmerel

"Worthless?"

The companies whose products he sells would probably disagree.

And the companies who products he sells wouldn't care less what Rush thinks about anything, as long as it's good for them. I'm not talking about his worth to the advertisers, did you read my comment?

160 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:00:49pm

re: #149 midwestgak
or maybe to prevent senseless MURDER

161 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:00:54pm

re: #157 jamgarr

I guess you didn't read my posts either.

Yes I did. Next question. Jerk.

162 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:01:37pm

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

Yes I did. Next question. Jerk.


Next question - What specifically have I posted that makes me a jerk?

163 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:02:52pm

re: #162 jamgarr

Next question - What specifically have I posted that makes me a jerk?

The way you are speaking to Dianna.

164 Fearless Fred  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:03:22pm

re: #72 Honorary Yooper

Their over-the-top rhetoric is one reason why over-the-top comments should be avoided. Some nut will act on the over-the-top rhetoric eventually. These groups have called for the death of these doctors far, far too many times. It is only a matter of time until someone acts on such rhetoric, and why such rhetoric should be taken seriously by those targeted and law enforcement. Such rhetoric is exactly why Charles has deleted many comments in the past, and has banned certain commentors.

If they're really doing that, prosecute them too. I believe what you say makes sense. I agree. Some of that sounds so hateful, and truly murderous.

165 mockery jones  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:03:35pm

question for the pro lifer's here that are up in arms over this tragedy, for what reasons are you a pro lifer?

166 1SG(ret)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:03:49pm
Worthless millionaire not really contributing anything to the betterment of mankind or this country. He's got a lot of people fooled.

I'm sure he would agree with you if the IRS would refuse to take the taxes he pays.

167 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:05:20pm

re: #163 Walter L. Newton

The way you are speaking to Dianna.

I have spoken to her calmly and rationally. She is the one who was rude. She started off with the assumption (incorrect) that my #42 had something to do with me disagreeing with her - it didn't.

168 jaunte  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:05:59pm

Not religious myself, but I always understood it was an article of faith that God can see what is in your heart, and to hold the idea that a murder is a good thing was as bad / punishable as the actual physical act. Has that changed, or is that an inaccurate perception?

169 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:06:03pm

re: #58 Kosh's Shadow

I'll repeat that a true Operation "Rescue" would give support, both emotional and financial, to pregnant women who were thinking of an abortion, to help them bring their babies to full term, and then help in getting started or in putting the baby up for adoption, whatever the mother chose.

I have heard of Efrat in Israel doing this, and lizards have mentioned organizations in the US.
And this type of organization, by its very nature, wouldn't be trying to kill anyone.

I don't know what circles you run in but I know many pro-life people who raise donations of money, baby clothes, ect., find apartments, jobs and even give a room in their houses for pregnant girls in need. In short, they are doing the thankless job of looking after people in need that parents, abusive boyfriends and social workers won't do.

I'm sure I'll get down-dinged for this but it makes me angry when people ignore these actions in lieu of a random action by a random crackpot.

170 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:06:07pm

re: #95 Shug

I watched the video and I agree with Charles that it is meant to incite violence.
The music chosen is a violent music.
The images are intentionally graphic.

It confirms my thoughts about Tiller and what he was doing and it should disgust every person who watches it, but it appeals to those who would do what Roeder did and for this, I think Operation Rescue should be charged as an accessory to murder

Would you then agree that every organization that stridently opposed the Oslo 'peace' process in Israel in the 1990s is responsible for the murder of Yitzhak Rabin (hy"d)?

Believe me, the rhetoric and propaganda being used then were every bit as hysterical and emotionally manipulative, if not worse.

And yes, our looney left basically made precisely this argument as an excuse for muzzling protest against Oslo, and "right-thinking people" (including myself at the time) bought into this and made excuses for locking up people under laws against incitement.

171 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:06:12pm

re: #144 Fearless Fred

Well, they don't want to kill abortion, they want to stop it. I guess they wanted to stop Tiller too (from killing more fetuses).

Except -- they didn't say "put a stop to George Tiller," they said "put an END to George Tiller."

I think it's pretty disgusting how you've been trying to make excuses for these people from the very beginning of this story.

172 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:06:49pm

re: #165 mockery jones

question for the pro lifer's here that are up in arms over this tragedy, for what reasons are you a pro lifer?

Do you agree with the murder of Dr. Tiller?

173 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:08:36pm

re: #169 Joan Not of Arc

I don't know what circles you run in but I know many pro-life people who raise donations of money, baby clothes, ect., find apartments, jobs and even give a room in their houses for pregnant girls in need. In short, they are doing the thankless job of looking after people in need that parents, abusive boyfriends and social workers won't do.

I'm sure I'll get down-dinged for this but it makes me angry when people ignore these actions in lieu of a random action by a random crackpot.

I think it is probably ignored, because people do not here of it often. BTW I doubt you will be down dinged.

174 IslandLibertarian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:09:06pm

re: #167 jamgarr

give it up jamgarr........you're not part of the clique.

175 midwestgak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:09:47pm

re: #158 Occasional Reader

Huh?

How is this "protecting/enforcing" Obama's "world view"? A doctor who did abortions was murdered yesterday. It seems perfectly appropriate for both state, local and federal law enforcement to enhance security for other possible targets.

Why doesn't he send "both" state, local and federal enforcement to the south side of Chicago where there are hundreds of murders?

Anyway, my point was missed. Part of his world view is that abortion is okee dokee. Bush stayed out of the whole matter. Did not use his power toward the matter one way or the other, though we know he is/was pro-life.

176 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:10:00pm

re: #165 mockery jones

So being "pro life" means that you approve someone's murder?

177 davesax  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:11:07pm

"Boy, these conservatives are really something. They're all in favor of the unborn, they'll do ANYTHING for the unborn, but once you're born, you're on your own...These people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors! What kind of pro-life is that?"

-George Carlin.

178 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:11:29pm

re: #174 IslandLibertarian

give it up jamgarr........you're not part of the clique.

I don't usually engage in flame wars - it's just that it is frustrating when someone disses you for something you haven't said or even implied.

179 mockery jones  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:11:57pm

re: #172 Charles

Do you agree with the murder of Dr. Tiller?

I do not.

But then again I have not made up my mind about my own views on abortion quite yet.

180 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:12:07pm

re: #48 Charles

Yep. It's beyond disgusting. There's a huge amount of approval for the murder of Dr. Tiller being voiced all over the internet.

I'm sure they think of it as an 'ends justifying the means' sort of thing. How else could they acheive the disconnect of carrying a pro-life view, but cheering murder?

181 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:12:35pm

re: #143 HoosierHoops

That's crazy..But you have to admit..pretty funny..I never understood the virtual suicide belt on a blog...
Hey Charles....

Taze my ass...

182 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:13:10pm

re: #178 jamgarr

I don't usually engage in flame wars - it's just that it is frustrating when someone disses you for something you haven't said or even implied.

You're cool Jam.. Just a misunderstanding I think..
How are you today?

183 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:13:10pm

re: #165 mockery jones

question for the pro lifer's here that are up in arms over this tragedy, for what reasons are you a pro lifer?

I cannot believe you are asking that question.

A belief in the sanctity of life means just that - a belief in the sanctity of all life. Not just selected lives, but every life.

What's your take?

184 notutopia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:13:38pm

re: The apparent purpose of the video: to encourage the murder of Dr. George Tiller. At one point, an onscreen message says: “Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes”

This is incitement. They are just as guilty for inciting the hatefilled retaliation by proxy!

No apology is ever adequate to undue the MURDER wished upon another!

This group IS responsible for incitement.

185 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:14:22pm
186 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #182 HoosierHoops

You're cool Jam.. Just a misunderstanding I think..
How are you today?


Wonderful. Just got back from seeing my daughter in San Fran. Thanks for asking.

187 hazzyday  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:14:45pm

I am wondering if Operation Rescue has done it's due diligence with regards to non violence advocacy.

I am also wondering if most of the members of Operation Rescue are young earth creationists. This is where I would expect to see mindsets like Scott Roeder's. As it pertains to abortion. The mindset that leads to this type of violence is present in all groups as a small fraction of membership. The difference being if the group tries to manage it or not.

We could measure groups in this way. LGF has positively culled out the obfuscating trolls, the wacko's, the unrepentant violent browsers from it's ranks over time. And for the most part we do see a general improvement in the tone of discussions and the willingness to reason. That is basically a function of leadership. But where do these people go? Do they get help or do they stew?

Now there are tons of blogs and non blog organizations out there that never consider the violent tendencies of their memberships. Nor do they attempt to educate these same people on the value of being civil.

And then there are organization like the ACLU that made their bones on the back of suing little people without enough resources to defend themselves adequately. And the Nifongs that look at their role in society without regards to integrity. These are the types of groups and people that contribute to the violent demeanor of the inclined to be violent.

A two edged sword. There is a need to educate people to resolve their violent tendencies and how to acheive outcomes and be happy with them in a democracy. And there is a need to have the social hegemonies have some integrity and not abuse the trust of their positions.

188 Buck  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:15:49pm

re: #123 Charles

"nofixedabode" just emailed a "please delete me, let me go" message. So I've obligingly blocked his account.

What no "Goodbye cruel world" rant?

This site is getting boring...

/just kidding

189 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #183 reine.de.tout


A belief in the sanctity of life means just that - a belief in the sanctity of all life. Not just selected lives, but every life.

Except that obviously sometimes it doesn't mean that at all. . .for instance, this case where a belief in the sanctity of life apparently led this person to kill someone.

190 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:16:16pm

re: #139 debutaunt

What an incredibly lame flounce.

It's better to burn out than to be forgotten?

/

191 davesax  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:16:44pm

"Why is it that people who are against abortion, are the kind of people you wouldn't want to *#(& in the first place?"

-George Carlin

192 hazzyday  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:17:22pm

re: #183 reine.de.tout

I cannot believe you are asking that question.

A belief in the sanctity of life means just that - a belief in the sanctity of all life. Not just selected lives, but every life.

What's your take?

My interpretation of that was that he was saying "Why do pro lifers kill?" Maybe I am not understanding it right.

193 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:17:33pm

re: #181 debutaunt

Taze my ass...

We really need stock form letters on the sidebar..
That way we make it convenient to flame out..Charles has a full service Blog and when it's time for your Type 1A Supernova..He provides you forms to help out...Cause that's just the way Charles rolls...
I think we should work on a whole section just for Cookbook II
/

194 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:17:45pm

re: #184 notutopia


This group IS responsible for incitement.

I'd tend to agree. . .at least to the point that I suspect the folks who produced it probably realized it was possible it could lead to this sort of thing, and obviously didn't have a problem with that.

However, I don't think it'll be easy to prove that responsibility in court.

195 J.S.  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:17:59pm

re: #183 reine.de.tout

hmm...seems that I misread that question -- I thought the poster was asking how could a so-called "pro-lifer" (ie., someone who opposes late term abortions) be a "pro-lifer" if they can also approve/commit a murder of a physician...Murdering someone (regardless of age) seems to me to be a pretty strong statement against "choose life" over choosing death...(just my opinion).

196 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:18:02pm

re: #125 spudly

It's too bad that the activists (on BOTH sides) cannot be less extreme. There is clearly a difference between early and late term abortion, for example (rationally, not from the religious POV, which tends towards absolutism).


Depends on the religion. For Catholicism life starts at conception: for Orthodox Judaism abortion is the destruction of potential life, which is a grave transgression (except to save a living person such as the mother, where it becomes mandatory) but not on the same plane as murder. ALso, the prohibition kicks in 40 days after conception, so "morning-after pills" are not considered abortions.

Some sort of middle ground policy would end some of the horrors shown in that video (I'm neither "anti-abortion" nor "entirely "pro-abortion" BTW). [...]
Such a centrist position would also be supported by substantial majorities of both parties, IMO (Ie: OK early with little if any restriction, not OK late-term... the middle, then it gets ugly, probably—but no more than the battle between camps is already).

In other words: "Plan B" available OTC no questions asked (which would prevent many abortions to begin with), 1st-trimester abortions legal, 3rd-trimester illegal except when the mother's life is in danger, 2nd trimester: some middle ground (leaving it to each state, serious medical indications only,...) This is a policy pro-lifers like myself could live with, and I think a solid majority of US citizens could live with. But grand-standers on both sides will never stand for it because it would deprive them of a politically useful hobby horse.

197 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:18:42pm

re: #186 jamgarr

Wonderful. Just got back from seeing my daughter in San Fran. Thanks for asking.

Oh Crap.. You know I'm a Napa Valley Boy..I miss the City..maybe once a year..
How is the weather today?

198 TheQuis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:19:02pm

re: #59 IslandLibertarian

"In Serious times we tell Silly Jokes, and in Silly Times we tell Serious Jokes. The constant is that we always need jokes. We always need a reason to smile."

Johnny Carson.

199 jamgarr  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:19:31pm

re: #197 HoosierHoops

Oh Crap.. You know I'm a Napa Valley Boy..I miss the City..maybe once a year..
How is the weather today?


Warm in STL. SFO was unseasonably cool - but dry.

200 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:19:34pm

re: #119 Dave the..... BOY; this is surely an intelligent retort..................../

201 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:19:37pm

re: #189 Yashmak

Except that obviously sometimes it doesn't mean that at all. . .for instance, this case where a belief in the sanctity of life apparently led this person to kill someone.

I was responding as to my personal belief to a query from somebody above:question for the pro lifer's here that are up in arms over this tragedy, for what reasons are you a pro lifer?

That is my personal response, and in no way will you be able to twist my personal response into an insinuation that I don't respect the sanctity of life.

202 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:20:01pm

re: #193 HoosierHoops

We really need stock form letters on the sidebar..
That way we make it convenient to flame out..Charles has a full service Blog and when it's time for your Type 1A Supernova..He provides you forms to help out...Cause that's just the way Charles rolls...
I think we should work on a whole section just for Cookbook II
/

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH

203 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:20:12pm

re: #175 midwestgak

Bush stayed out of the whole matter. Did not use his power toward the matter one way or the other

I can assure you that any substantiated threats against abortion clinics or providers, OR against Operation Rescue, during the Bush Administration would have received ample FBI attention. As it should be.

204 davesax  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:21:32pm

I don't really care what pro-lifers think of my stance on abortion.

I think it's a woman's right to choose. End of story.

205 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:21:33pm

re: #195 J.S.

hmm...seems that I misread that question -- I thought the poster was asking how could a so-called "pro-lifer" (ie., someone who opposes late term abortions) be a "pro-lifer" if they can also approve/commit a murder of a physician...Murdering someone (regardless of age) seems to me to be a pretty strong statement against "choose life" over choosing death...(just my opinion).

You may be right.
I may just be too emotional about this right now.
Iron Fist Rule might need to be self-applied.

I can't speak for anyone who would commit murder.
I can only speak for myself.
I guess, then, I tend to misunderstand those questions where the questioner asks for the pro-lifers here to speak for a murderer.

206 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:21:48pm

re: #201 reine.de.tout

That is my personal response, and in no way will you be able to twist my personal response into an insinuation that I don't respect the sanctity of life.

That wasn't my intent at all. My comment wasn't describing you personally. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

207 OldLineTexan  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:22:06pm

re: #203 Occasional Reader

I can assure you that any substantiated threats against abortion clinics or providers, OR against Operation Rescue, during the Bush Administration would have received ample FBI attention. As it should be.

There are TOO many of "you" today.

/

208 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:22:08pm

re: #199 jamgarr

Warm in STL. SFO was unseasonably cool - but dry.

We are only a couple hundred miles away..I hear you are losing your Football team..*Wink*

209 notutopia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:22:22pm

re: #194 Yashmak

I'd tend to agree with you. However, the effort and finances needed to to drag and defend their sorry arses through court would bring much needed social pressure to this group.
And, if they were to be found complicit? What of that.
This kind of hatefilled propaganda has to stop!
Propagating the wish to MURDER another because of a difference in your core beliefs has to stop!

210 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:23:03pm

re: #206 Yashmak

That wasn't my intent at all. My comment wasn't describing you personally. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

yes, sorry. See re: #205 reine.de.tout

You may be right.
I may just be too emotional about this right now.
Iron Fist Rule might need to be self-applied.

I can't speak for anyone who would commit murder.
I can only speak for myself.
I guess, then, I tend to misunderstand those questions where the questioner asks for the pro-lifers here to speak for a murderer.

211 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:24:27pm

re: #193 HoosierHoops

We really need stock form letters on the sidebar..
That way we make it convenient to flame out..Charles has a full service Blog and when it's time for your Type 1A Supernova..He provides you forms to help out...Cause that's just the way Charles rolls...
I think we should work on a whole section just for Cookbook II
/

In the works, HH

212 hazzyday  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:26:36pm

re: #184 notutopia

re: The apparent purpose of the video: to encourage the murder of Dr. George Tiller. At one point, an onscreen message says: “Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes”

This is incitement. They are just as guilty for inciting the hatefilled retaliation by proxy!

No apology is ever adequate to undue the MURDER wished upon another!

This group IS responsible for incitement.

From the idiom dictionary. "Put an end" means stop. It can though mean kill if there is adequate context surrounding the usage. given the emotional nature of the topic. Abortion is considered killing by the pro lifers here. Using a neutral word like 'stop' would have been better. But that doesn't stop some wacko from liberally applying their own meaning to the word 'stop'. Again I think this points to religious people not using their religion to solve problems but resorting to the darker hellish aspects of their own human nature. Huffpo, DU, Operation Rescue, YEC'rs, Troofers, Paulians. All to some degree in the same basket.

213 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:27:25pm

OT; looks like they have the arkansas recruiter suspect in custody

214 Digital Display  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:29:08pm

re: #211 reine.de.tout

In the works, HH

Hey friend..Ok..one or two pages of rotating title nominees that never made it..Some of them just cracked me up..
There have been a few posts this last 6 months that just literally broke your heart.. There have been some that were so funny..
Iron fist rule? I am crushed today...The only way I'm going anywhere today is by Taxi..
*wipes away tears*

215 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:29:37pm

re: #213 gtrs

OT; looks like they have the arkansas recruiter suspect in custody

Go to the next thread and you won't be "OT."

216 notutopia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:31:34pm

re: #212 hazzyday

"Wackos", as you coin them, are OBSESSED with an idea. They are bipartisan.
They have the compunction to do what they are DRIVEN by the Obsession to do. With or without command. However, they are more so apt to act out their OBSESSIONs when they are INCITED to do so.

217 mockery jones  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:31:42pm

re: #183 reine.de.tout

I cannot believe you are asking that question.

A belief in the sanctity of life means just that - a belief in the sanctity of all life. Not just selected lives, but every life.

What's your take?

what's so wrong about the question?

I just have trouble reconciling the idea that one could be opposed to abortion on the grounds that abortion is murder and yet opposed to the elimination of someone who by that definition is a mass murderer.

I was wondering if there was another path to coming to a pro life understanding that doesn't view abortion as murder and therefore eliminates the obvious contradiction.

218 spudly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:32:46pm

re: #145 wrenchwench

As I understand it, Dr. Tiller was working under the Kansas law which required two doctors to sign off on the abortions as "medically necessary." That means the "virtually no medical reason" standard would result in women being killed or injured by their fetuses. How many of those cases are too many?

My wife is a surgeon (not at all "pro-life" in any sense, we're not religious, for example). She said that the invasiveness of the late term procedure is such that she cannot imagine a scenario where that procedure is required in a short time interval (short of trauma, perhaps). Examples might be to abort for immediate chemo or radiation, but as she told me, if a few weeks is critical... the mom-to-be would need to get her affairs in order anyway since any cancer in that much of a rush would almost certainly kill the mom regardless (the treatment doing no more than buying time).

Still, you could require a court order of some kind later term. Getting 2 docs to sign on OTOH, would be easy. Find 2 docs that have no ethical qualms with abortion at any time, done. I don't think that is a terribly robust requirement to meet.

219 elcaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:32:59pm
Note to anti-abortion groups: man up and take responsibility for Scott Roeder. He’s one of yours. Obviously, not everyone who belongs to a “pro-life” group will go to such extreme lengths as Scott Roeder apparently did, but it’s long past time for you folks to start dialing down the rhetoric and acting more responsibly — before anyone else is hurt or killed in a shooting or an abortion clinic bombing.

Sorry, but I think you overstep with this statement... I'm holding back on a lot of hypothetical situations. However, I'll allow myself one... If it was discovered that a mentally unstable individual posted occasionally on this site and committed murder at a mosque, would you feel responsible? should you? It doesn't really matter how much control you feel you have over a community, there will always be a few nut-jobs out there....

220 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:38:32pm

re: #217 mockery jones

Sure. Roman Catholic doctrine is that abortion is murder. At common law (the judge-made law of England pre-dating the American Revolution for a thousand years, which was adopted as U.S. law in 1776), abortion was a misdemeanor offense, meaning it was punishable by less than a year in jail. In many states prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was treated the same way: as a minor crime.

My personal view is that the common law approach was not unreasonable. It treated abortion as something morally bad, without raising the stakes to the point that a murder charge could be lodged, and extreme emotions kick in.

I am pro-life, meaning I find abortion distasteful, immoral, and in most cases, the outcome of stupid and irresponsible choices. I think contraception far preferable. It is precisely the Catholic doctrine that it is identical to murder that has polarized the debate.

221 Barb42  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:40:25pm

I was in the Pro-Life movement for many, many years. I picketed, I helped women who were pregnant, I worked with the handicapped, I helped women who had abortions and grieved for that baby for years. It was hard work and we took a lot of you-know-what from the haters. This jerk is not representative, nor an official part of any legitimate group. He is a nut. Period. One crazy person who wants to be famous does not cancel out the hard work of the millions of Pro-Life people out there. Get real.

222 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:40:32pm

re: #217 mockery jones


I just have trouble reconciling the idea that one could be opposed to abortion on the grounds that abortion is murder and yet opposed to the elimination of someone who by that definition is a mass murderer.

Well, millions of us are in that exact category. It's about the rule of law. Yes, in a better world this man would have been a criminal and would have been subject to state punishment for his crimes. But... we're not there and this man is a criminal. Does that help?

223 jaunte  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:40:44pm

re: #219 elcaro

There are always nut-jobs out there, but if the "pro-life" groups leadership instituted a few rules for their members, along the lines of those at the top of this thread, they would be demonstrating responsible leadership.
For example:
"Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal."
"Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked."

224 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:41:34pm

re: #222 Spenser (with an S)

this man = the murder suspect.

225 TheQuis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:42:47pm

re: #221 Barb42

I was in the Pro-Life movement for many, many years. I picketed, I helped women who were pregnant, I worked with the handicapped, I helped women who had abortions and grieved for that baby for years. It was hard work and we took a lot of you-know-what from the haters. This jerk is not representative, nor an official part of any legitimate group. He is a nut. Period. One crazy person who wants to be famous does not cancel out the hard work of the millions of Pro-Life people out there. Get real.

I'm Pro-Choice. And I applaud your efforts. This is what I believe more of the Pro-Life and Pro-Choice movement should be about. Helping those who have a tough decision and if they chose life, helping them so that they can honor the commitment that they've taken with that child either by being a better parent or finding better parents. I salute you.

226 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:43:42pm

re: #223 jaunte

My family is quite involved in the Pro-Life movement and every site I've visited does just that. I don't know them all, though and Operation Rescue is not one I've visited.

227 jaunte  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:44:41pm

re: #226 Spenser (with an S)

That's good. Maybe the other groups can influence OR.

228 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:45:50pm

re: #225 TheQuis

Thank you for saying that. The group I'm involved in does just that too. Caring for these women in a tough time and crying with many who have returned to them devastated after an abortion.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:45:52pm

re: #45 Last Mohican

I'm not going to watch the video immediately. I'm not really in a space where I feel like seeing that at the moment.

I'll say this about Operation Rescue though: I've seen them viciously harassing women as they walk into and out of abortion clinics. For most women, having an abortion is a deeply upsetting and traumatic experience. Operation Rescue's technique of intimidating and further traumatizing people during a vulnerable time is vile, inflammatory, and counterproductive, and it has no place in the debate.

I appreciate and respect the widely-held position that abortion is wrong. I know that most people who hold this opinion do so out of love and respect for life, not out of hatred. I understand that many pro-lifers do not agree with Operation Rescue's harassment of women. But by behaving as they have, in my opinion, Operation Rescue has removed itself from any place in civilized society.

I've also been hassled, and seen women hassled, walking into a clinic to get all kinds of NON-abortion care, such as pap smears, birth control, VD care, pre-natal check-ups...the atmosphere can be very charged and frightening.

230 jvic  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:46:11pm

re: #196 Former Belgian

In other words: "Plan B" available OTC no questions asked (which would prevent many abortions to begin with), 1st-trimester abortions legal, 3rd-trimester illegal except when the mother's life is in danger, 2nd trimester: some middle ground (leaving it to each state, serious medical indications only,...) This is a policy pro-lifers like myself could live with, and I think a solid majority of US citizens could live with. But grand-standers on both sides will never stand for it because it would deprive them of a politically useful hobby horse.

My sentiments exactly, and I'm not 'pro-life'.

I thought it was too obvious to say that a system of laws cannot be impeccable in every situation. You do the best you can to write good laws, but you recognize that trying too hard for perfection gives too much power to the state.

Apparently it's way less obvious than I thought it was.

231 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:46:16pm

re: #221 Barb42

I was in the Pro-Life movement for many, many years. I picketed, I helped women who were pregnant, I worked with the handicapped, I helped women who had abortions and grieved for that baby for years. It was hard work and we took a lot of you-know-what from the haters. This jerk is not representative, nor an official part of any legitimate group. He is a nut. Period. One crazy person who wants to be famous does not cancel out the hard work of the millions of Pro-Life people out there. Get real.

And of course, I didn't say that it "canceled out" anyone's good work. But for you to ignore the simple fact there are thousands upon thousands of your fellow travelers in the pro-life movement who not only approve of what Roeder did, but are cheering him on at websites all over the world, is disingenuous.

There IS a significant faction of the pro-life movement that encourages and promotes this kind of thinking. It's all over the place. And that's why I wrote that anti-abortion groups need to take responsibility for it, and start dealing with the extremists so that more doctors are not murdered in cold blood by fanatics.

232 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:46:38pm

Assuming an abortion doctor is a murderer (which under current law he is not), the murdering a murderer still isn't justified. It's-- murder, plain and simple. I don't think abortion doctors are murderers. (Of course, I'm not Roman Catholic either.) I do think a return to the common law pre-Roe v. Wade, making abortion a misdemeanor (petty) offense would be a good policy choice. (That means I'll enrage both sides in this debate).

233 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:47:14pm

re: #58 Kosh's Shadow

I'll repeat that a true Operation "Rescue" would give support, both emotional and financial, to pregnant women who were thinking of an abortion, to help them bring their babies to full term, and then help in getting started or in putting the baby up for adoption, whatever the mother chose.

I have heard of Efrat in Israel doing this, and lizards have mentioned organizations in the US.
And this type of organization, by its very nature, wouldn't be trying to kill anyone.

Birthright does good work along those lines. I know women who've turned to them and gotten real help.

234 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:48:14pm

re: #217 mockery jones

what's so wrong about the question?

I just have trouble reconciling the idea that one could be opposed to abortion on the grounds that abortion is murder and yet opposed to the elimination of someone who by that definition is a mass murderer.

I was wondering if there was another path to coming to a pro life understanding that doesn't view abortion as murder and therefore eliminates the obvious contradiction.

Right, that's exactly what I thought you were getting at. You're just "asking questions," correct? Haven't made up your own mind on the issue?

235 JohnH  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:49:39pm

Since you insist that the pro-life movement "man-up" and take responsibility for this nut, then will you do likewise and "man-up" for every bad thing done by someone who cites Darwin?

236 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:50:13pm

Here they come.

237 brain-washed sheeple  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:50:41pm

Wow, that video was appallingly gruesome...

Of course, abortion can be appallingly gruesome, so I don't see any reason the video wouldn't be.

238 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:50:50pm

re: #218 spudly

My wife is a surgeon (not at all "pro-life" in any sense, we're not religious, for example). She said that the invasiveness of the late term procedure is such that she cannot imagine a scenario where that procedure is required in a short time interval (short of trauma, perhaps). Examples might be to abort for immediate chemo or radiation, but as she told me, if a few weeks is critical... the mom-to-be would need to get her affairs in order anyway since any cancer in that much of a rush would almost certainly kill the mom regardless (the treatment doing no more than buying time).

Still, you could require a court order of some kind later term. Getting 2 docs to sign on OTOH, would be easy. Find 2 docs that have no ethical qualms with abortion at any time, done. I don't think that is a terribly robust requirement to meet.

Its an extremely robust requirement. First you have to find 2 docs willing to risk their lives to be involved at all. Secondly, the medical reason needs to be robust to say the least because legal challenges are guaranteed.

239 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:50:58pm

It is reprehensible to link pro-life individuals with the acts of a criminal without evidence linking those persons as co-conspirators to the specific crime. That would be similar to asserting the following:
Dan Rostenkowski and Rod Blagojevich are Democrat politicians from Chicago. They are also corrupt.
Barack Obama is a Democrat politician from Chicago. Therefore he is also corrupt.

That kind of logic is worthy of Daily Kos. We are better than that.
Andrew Sullivan as a source? Come on!

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:51:42pm

re: #106 Russkilitlover

I don't know what religion he was - nor do I care (although I'd be shocked out of my socks if he was Catholic). I just find it very hard to reconcile how someone can perform late term abortions and have no qualms about active participation in a church. I just don't see it other than hypocrisy - whether for a clear conscience or other reasons.

Think about the kind of desperate patients and cases a man willing to do late-term abortions sees. I don't see how a doctor with such a practice could survive without a church.

241 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:53:26pm

re: #238 KansasMom

Its an extremely robust requirement. First you have to find 2 docs willing to risk their lives to be involved at all. Secondly, the medical reason needs to be robust to say the least because legal challenges are guaranteed.

That's exactly right. The people who are saying there is never any justification for late term abortions are simply wrong. These procedures are very rare -- as they should be -- but there are legitimate cases in which women have to make the wrenching decision to either terminate their pregnancy at a late date, or risk losing both their life and the life of the baby.

The state of Kansas has extremely stringent rules regarding these kinds of abortions.

242 J.S.  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:54:20pm

re: #205 reine.de.tout

Then, again, I may be misinterpreting the original poster's (that's "mockery jones") comment...The original comment was ambiguously worded...could be read either way...(as you've noted, it would require the original poster to clarify..)

243 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:54:31pm

re: #239 picaro

Andrew Sullivan as a source? Come on!

The video speaks for itself. If you want to dismiss it based on the source, that's your problem.

244 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:55:13pm

re: #226 Spenser (with an S)

My family is quite involved in the Pro-Life movement and every site I've visited does just that. I don't know them all, though and Operation Rescue is not one I've visited.

On that note:

I was just searching for their site (unavailable right now, as you might imagine), but I noticed there is a sub-link to an apparent feature on their site called "Tiller Watch".

I can't look at it, so I can't make any definitive judgment, but it's hard to imagine it's nothing. They didn't pull the trigger, but it appears they singled this doctor out and painted a target on him. I'm not one who believes that someone else is responsible for the actions of a crazy person, but boy...they need, at a minimum, to take a very hard, very close look at their tactics.

Bad, bad juju there.

245 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:55:41pm

re: #239 picaro

I
Andrew Sullivan as a source? Come on!

As noted upthread , Sullivan is the source of the video feed.

246 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:55:58pm

re: #239 picaro

It is reprehensible to link pro-life individuals with the acts of a criminal without evidence linking those persons as co-conspirators to the specific crime.

And what's your opinion about the thousands and thousands of comments and the blog posts applauding the murder of Dr. Tiller? Are we supposed to believe there's no support for this killing in the pro-life movement -- even when the evidence is right in front of our eyes?

247 MPH  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:56:05pm

[Link: reason.com...]

Yet if you honestly believe abortion is the murder of helpless children, it's hard to see why using deadly force against those who carry it out is immoral, especially since the government refuses to act.
248 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:56:37pm

re: #241 Charles

That's exactly right. The people who are saying there is never any justification for late term abortions are simply wrong. These procedures are very rare -- as they should be -- but there are legitimate cases in which women have to make the wrenching decision to either terminate their pregnancy at a late date, or risk losing both their life and the life of the baby.

The state of Kansas has extremely stringent rules regarding these kinds of abortions.

Indeed. I would imagine that Colorado has similar laws, although I'm not familiar with them.

249 jaunte  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 12:59:10pm

re: #247 MPH


"Yet if you honestly believe abortion is the murder of helpless children, it's hard to see why using deadly force against those who carry it out is immoral, especially since the government refuses to act."[Link: reason.com...]

These people claim to believe in God, but refuse to trust in Him.

250 acacia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:01:36pm

Many people, including me, are pro-life and very ardently so. NONE of them that I know advocates or condones killing of a doctor who performs abortions. EVERYONE I know, whether pro life, pro choice, whatever, abhors such things. The question I have then is "How do we 'man up' now when we've always 'manned up'? The "man up" premise is false because you must equate the "movement" and the fringe anti abortion advocates as the same.

251 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:01:57pm

re: #247 MPH

[Link: reason.com...]

That kind of garbage thinking is why I no longer pay much attention to Reason magazine.

252 abolitionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:02:32pm

Lest we forget... NO WIRE HANGERS! Ever! -- from Mommy Dearest. Suspect maybe that wasn't entirely about rust ruining dresses.

253 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:02:50pm

re: #234 Charles

We're operating in this "Aristolean logic" world where true believers think abortion is murder, the worst sort of absolute moral evil. It never has been murder at common law, or in the U.S. We're in the realms of a theological debate, nothing more or less.

There's no way to debate theology rationally. Of course an unborn child has the potential to become a child. But should a pregnant woman be able to vote twice, once for herself, and once for her unborn child? The question is ridiculous, but so is the premise. Under English and U.S. law, an unborn child never has had all the civil rights of a born child. I'm no fan of abortion, but the Roman Catholic theological position leaves no room for compromise of any sort.

254 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:02:59pm
Note to anti-abortion groups: man up and take responsibility for Scott Roeder. He’s one of yours. Obviously, not everyone who belongs to a “pro-life” group will go to such extreme lengths as Scott Roeder apparently did, but it’s long past time for you folks to start dialing down the rhetoric and acting more responsibly — before anyone else is hurt or killed in a shooting or an abortion clinic bombing.

One can hope that blatant incitement to violence and murder like those peddled on a daily basis by OR and similar groups will, as a result of this latest tragedy, be prosecuted with all the zeal they deserve in the future.

255 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:03:33pm

This is tricky to say and I am in no possible way justifying any violence ever toward an abortion doctor, but I do have some perspective to offer here;

10's of Millions of people truly believe that abortion ends an innocent human life. In our hearts and, with advances in ultrasounds, our minds too. Every day of every year this continues.

Out of those 10's of millions of people, once every decade or so, a crazy commits a crime, is roundly condemned by any group I would ever belong to (which are the only ones I believe I should have to defend or justify) and is punished under our laws. Wouldn't this be a much bigger problem if any significant % of these groups didn't police themselves? Why so few crazies?

256 mockery jones  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:03:38pm

re: #234 Charles

Right, that's exactly what I thought you were getting at. You're just "asking questions," correct? Haven't made up your own mind on the issue?


No i have not made up my mind on where i stand on the issue of abortion. Why is that so hard to believe?

Most of the arguments against legal abortions I can support morally and yet at the same time these moral stands taken to their absurd conclusion end up in tragedies like the one we saw this weekend (which any conscientious person must repudiate).

Most of the arguments for legal abortions too I can support morally. However like their counterparts these too taken to their conclusion ends up in the termination of human life on a grand scale.

This leads me to a position where I can support neither position (pro life or pro choice) since each has a valid moral perspective and yet each taken to their logical yet absurd conclusion leads to a degree of immorality I'm sure no one wants to get behind.

So yes I ask the tough questions. Not because I'm trying to make a point but because I am honestly confused about the issue and what I think about it. I've seen many good responses here but nothing that really resolves my confusion on which side it the right one to support, and if either side is right then does it make sense to only support that movement in the things I agree with while ignoring the very real moral imperatives such a position implies?

257 iceman1960  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:04:43pm

I'm pro-life but had never heard of Tillman until now (guess I must have missed the meetings). The guy Tiller sounds like a butcher and his killer sounds like a nutcase. No matter if your pro-life or pro-choice I wouldn't hold up either as the poster child for my cause.

258 acacia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:04:58pm

re: #246 Charles

And what's your opinion about the thousands and thousands of comments and the blog posts applauding the murder of Dr. Tiller? Are we supposed to believe there's no support for this killing in the pro-life movement -- even when the evidence is right in front of our eyes?

My opinion would be that those "thousands" or however many there are applauding openly or in silence are completely wrong and not in touch with millions more who believe abortion is wrong.

259 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:05:28pm

Has anyone seen films from Nazi concentration camps? Those were 'graphic' as well. We do not attempt to suppress those or accuse those who screen them of dialing up the rhetoric because we agree that the Nazis were evil. True civil libertarians do not limit free speech based on the political status of the speakers or the objects of their speech.

260 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:05:34pm

The legal point that you've already made, Charles, is that under Roe v. Wade, in the third trimester, a state may, in fact, regulate such abortions. Regulation is always about balancing interests. The interests of the unborn child increase, legally speaking, as the pregnancy progresses.

261 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:08:12pm

re: #250 acacia

Many people, including me, are pro-life and very ardently so. NONE of them that I know advocates or condones killing of a doctor who performs abortions. EVERYONE I know, whether pro life, pro choice, whatever, abhors such things. The question I have then is "How do we 'man up' now when we've always 'manned up'? The "man up" premise is false because you must equate the "movement" and the fringe anti abortion advocates as the same.

It isn't false. A quick glance at a disturbingly large number of "pro-life" sites shows articles and comments sections literally brimming with support for this act. It is precisely the same as handing out candy in the streets after the World Trade Center bombings, and those cheering on this cheering on Roeder are every bit as culpable as he is.

262 iceman1960  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:09:31pm

Isn't a pro-life murderer an oxymoron?

263 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:10:17pm

re: #258 acacia

My opinion would be that those "thousands" or however many there are applauding openly or in silence are completely wrong and not in touch with millions more who believe abortion is wrong.

They seem to be an overwhelming majority in the venues cited.

264 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:10:43pm

re: #259 picaro

Has anyone seen films from Nazi concentration camps? Those were 'graphic' as well. We do not attempt to suppress those or accuse those who screen them of dialing up the rhetoric because we agree that the Nazis were evil. True civil libertarians do not limit free speech based on the political status of the speakers or the objects of their speech.

Who said anything about "limiting free speech?" I want these bloodthirsty morons to come out and make their intentions known. I want them to shout it to the world.

265 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:10:48pm

re: #238 KansasMom

Its an extremely robust requirement. First you have to find 2 docs willing to risk their lives to be involved at all. Secondly, the medical reason needs to be robust to say the least because legal challenges are guaranteed.

With all due respect, considering how easy it is to find Belgian and Dutch doctors willing to sign off on euthanasia (not abortion), color me skeptical that one could not shop around to find two doctors willing to sign off on any abortion request for any reason.

/Have first-hand experience of the Belgian-Dutch scenario: am still sick to my stomach whenever the memory comes back.

266 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:12:03pm

re: #246 Charles

Admittedly I have more sympathy for Tiller's innocent victims than for Tiller, but extrajudicial execution is not warranted. I have not seen any cheerleading, much less thousands of posts. I'm sure they exist in isolation, and someone is sure to dredge them up to provide 'proof' that all pro-life proponents are crazed assassins. I hope that those posters think hard about the type of society we would have if everyone meted out what they thought was justice.

267 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:12:13pm

Websites that target individuals for violence or murder should be prosecuted as accessories if those crimes occur. This is not a fantasy, people.

268 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:12:58pm

re: #267 quickjustice

Websites that target individuals for violence or murder should be prosecuted as accessories if those crimes occur. This is not a fantasy, people.

Thoughtcrimes, anyone?

269 acacia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:13:16pm

I agree. They are reprehensible. I guess the issue is how to define them. Like I said, I am very much against abortion but think that whoever killed the doctor is guilty of murder and should be punished as a murderer,not applauded. It is horrible. There are many people who think like me - in fact I would say that almost all Roman Catholics who are against abortion would take this view. I again ask, who must "man up?" re: #261 SixDegrees

270 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:14:06pm

re: #266 picaro

As I've said, I'm pro-life, but not Catholic. So I have a question for you: into what category, morally speaking, do you place cheerleaders for "crazed assassins"?

271 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:14:37pm
272 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:16:08pm

re: #268 picaro

Thoughtcrimes, anyone?

Oh bullshit. Would prosecuting imams that incite people to commit bloody jihad also be considered prosecuting "thought crimes"?

273 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:16:51pm

re: #268 picaro

"Thoughtcrimes"? And into what category do you place "inciting a riot"? How about standing up on a soapbox, and advocating the lynching of black people? If the mob you incite goes out and lynches a black person, you can be prosecuted. Why is the web different?

You really are a cheerleader for murdering abortion docs, aren't you?

274 jaunte  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:17:20pm

re: #271 HornetDriver

6 posts qualifies you for a 5¢ discount on the flounce.

275 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:17:57pm

re: #266 picaro

I have not seen any cheerleading, much less thousands of posts.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I'm sure they exist in isolation, and someone is sure to dredge them up to provide 'proof' that all pro-life proponents are crazed assassins.

These comments do NOT "exist in isolation." They are everywhere, all over the web. Thousands upon thousands of them. The ones you see in the link above are just a very tiny sampling of the hatred that is posted nearly everywhere this subject has been covered.

I spent much of yesterday going through website after website and finding this stuff everywhere. Please don't tell me these comments "exist in isolation" -- I know better than that.

276 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:19:02pm

re: #271 HornetDriver

Bye now! Sorry, your dramatic flounce-off and "Yay, murder!" comments have been deleted.

277 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:19:51pm

re: #271 HornetDriver

Your theological beliefs notwithstanding (and you're entitled to them), abortion NEVER has been defined as murder in the United States of America. In overwhelmingly Catholic countries such as Ireland, it may have been so defined. In other words, there's never been legal force in the U.S. behind your theological argument.

278 J.S.  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:20:03pm

re: #267 quickjustice

I thought websites which targeted abortion doctors (like using "wanted" posters and listing names and addresses, etc.) was deemed by the US Supreme Court as "incitement" to violence and was not to be tolerated...

279 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:20:10pm

re: #266 picaro

Admittedly I have more sympathy for Tiller's innocent victims than for Tiller, but extrajudicial execution is not warranted. I have not seen any cheerleading, much less thousands of posts. I'm sure they exist in isolation, and someone is sure to dredge them up to provide 'proof' that all pro-life proponents are crazed assassins. I hope that those posters think hard about the type of society we would have if everyone meted out what they thought was justice.

I don't know about 'thousands', but on various sites I checked (these were just outspokenly right-wing blogs, not single-issue pro-life sites) I have seen "he got what's coming to him" and "karma is a [female canine]" type comments. Not many, and the site proprietors made it clear they didn't agree with them, but they were there alright.

280 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:20:44pm

re: #264 Charles

I know a few people who I suspect may be or were in OR. I really do not believe in single-issue politics, so they strike me as too focused on that issue - as I would rather vote for someone who I agree with on 70% of issues than boycott the election over one issue with the result that an utterly wretched candidate is elected. They are not pragmatic, but are hardly 'bloodthirsty morons'.

281 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:21:55pm

re: #272 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh bullshit. Would prosecuting imams that incite people to commit bloody jihad also be considered prosecuting "thought crimes"?

So you would shred the First Amendment? The Imams have rights, too. Even if we despise their ideology.

282 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:23:34pm

re: #273 quickjustice

"Thoughtcrimes"? And into what category do you place "inciting a riot"? How about standing up on a soapbox, and advocating the lynching of black people? If the mob you incite goes out and lynches a black person, you can be prosecuted. Why is the web different?

You really are a cheerleader for murdering abortion docs, aren't you?


Straw man

283 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:24:27pm

re: #69 Dianna

Given the order of that list...I could definitely interpret that as a call to murder. It's not specific, but it probably wouldn't take much of a mental twist to see it as an injunction to violent action.

I could agree with you if the phrasing had been "put an end to Tiller's career," "Tiller's practice," even "Tiller's crimes." I just don't see how you can "put an end" to a person except through death.

284 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:26:44pm

re: #265 Former Belgian

With all due respect, considering how easy it is to find Belgian and Dutch doctors willing to sign off on euthanasia (not abortion), color me skeptical that one could not shop around to find two doctors willing to sign off on any abortion request for any reason.

/Have first-hand experience of the Belgian-Dutch scenario: am still sick to my stomach whenever the memory comes back.

This very process, AND the validity of the second medical opinion was very recently challenged in a Wichita court. The defense (Tiller) won the case because the second medical sign off was valid. These aren't just willy-nilly sign-offs. These are documented medical cases that have survived legal scrutiny.

285 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:27:31pm

re: #281 picaro

So you would shred the First Amendment? The Imams have rights, too. Even if we despise their ideology.

More bullshit. There are restrictions on the right to free speech. Always have been. Incitement is a prosecutable offense.

286 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:28:50pm

re: #282 picaro

Straw man

You're calling "straw man," yet you just posted a comment accusing me of wanting to suppress free speech -- which I have never once advocated. I think you need to brush up on the meaning of a "straw man argument."

287 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:28:53pm

re: #283 ShanghaiEd

I could agree with you if the phrasing had been "put an end to Tiller's career," "Tiller's practice," even "Tiller's crimes." I just don't see how you can "put an end" to a person except through death.

Well, in a country where a newspaper accepts an ad calling for the POTUS to "follow in the footsteps of Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and Kennedy" and didn't even realize until after printing just WHAT they printed... I am willing to believe outrageous stupidity before malice.

288 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:29:29pm

re: #282 picaro

Why is the web different?

It's not and I think we're making that as clear as possible. Of course an incitement to murder is a crime, whether it's on the web or in person. Is that all you were waiting for us to say? I am also saying that I have not seen, heard or read anything that resembles that in my many years of Pro-Life group experience.

289 Shug  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:29:59pm

re: #115 Lawrence Schmerel

I don't think Operation Rescue can be an accessory to murder unless they had some knowledge of Roeder and his intention of murdering Dr. Tiller.

I would like to see the producers of this video at least hauled in front of a Grand Jury....just as I would have liked to see Al Sharpton charged with the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum and the people at Freddies Fashion mart.

it will at least set an example, that while criticism and protest are an essential part of being an American, willfully inciting violence is a crime

290 spudly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:31:17pm

re: #238 KansasMom

Its an extremely robust requirement. First you have to find 2 docs willing to risk their lives to be involved at all. Secondly, the medical reason needs to be robust to say the least because legal challenges are guaranteed.

How many legal challenges have there been in Kansas. You are in effect saying ("guaranteed") that every one of this physician's late-term cases was legally challenged. I find that hard to believe. Are there even public records on this, strikes me that it would be hard to have as public at all with HIPAA requirements.

A google found this in a MSNBC article:

Kansas law says late-term abortions can be performed on viable fetuses after the 21st week of pregnancy only if a woman or girl faces death or "substantial and irreversible" harm to a major bodily function, a provision that has been interpreted to include her mental health. Doctors must file a report on each late-term abortion and must obtain a second opinion from an independent physician before performing the procedure.

So they need a 2d opinion. The same article said that the recently vetoed bill (supported by the pro-life people) would have increased reporting requirements for what that's worth.

Again, my opinion about the medical necessity of such procedures is informed by a spouse who is a surgeon. Some fetal problems might make the procedure desirable later term, I guess (a late diagnosis of something terrible like anencephaly, for example).

I'm not a "social conservative." I'm an atheist. None the less, I think that abortion after viability is abhorrent—as is murder (anyone who has not read above, I'm entirely against the extremists). I'm talking after something like 24 weeks+, I'm not talking about a few weeks after a 12 week amniocentesis. (not sure what they call "late term."

291 brainsample  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:31:25pm

Let's see:
I am a pro life Catholic (and no, that's not necessarily redundant). I support crisis pregnancy centers through donations of money and clothing. I have close friends who pray the rosary standing out in front of Planned Parenthood. So I'm indirectly responsible for the murder of Tiller and I'm supposed to apologize?

Ain't happenin'.

Because I oppose racial preferences and voted against Obama, I'm supposed to apologize for the KKK?

292 ShanghaiEd  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:31:29pm

re: #64 gtrs

also; i hope folks listen to the music being played in the video

I can't understand the lyrics at all. Does anybody know the title or artist?

293 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:32:07pm

A brief history of the abortion controversy in the United States.

In the United States, abortion laws began to appear in the 1820s, forbidding abortion after the fourth month of pregnancy.

Roe v. Wade did not make abortion legal for the first time in the U.S., it was legal for several decades after this nation was founded. Just something to ponder.

294 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:34:08pm

re: #278 J.S.

I thought websites which targeted abortion doctors (like using "wanted" posters and listing names and addresses, etc.) was deemed by the US Supreme Court as "incitement" to violence and was not to be tolerated...

Apparently not. Here's Google's cache of the "Army of God" website:

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

Watch out! There are the usual gruesome pictures purporting to be of aborted babies. These bloodthirsty freaks love to shove that stuff in your face.

Currently at the top of the page:

The lives of innocent babies scheduled to be murdered by George Tiller are spared by the action of American hero Scott Roeder.

George Tiller the Babykiller reaped what he sowed and is now in eternal hell.

Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

295 acacia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:34:20pm

Cheerleading murder is reprehensible and in my opinion could, depending what exactly was said, form the grounds for inciting murder. If that's not yelling fire in a crowded theater I don't know what is. People confuse freedom of speech with "freedom" to commit crime. You are technically "free" to commit a crime but if you do you pay the price. A person can advocate all sorts of violence - you can't put a muzzle on in advance - but once you do then you should face the consequences.

296 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:38:10pm

re: #281 picaro

There is a legal difference between saying, "I hate abortionists", or "abortionists should be killed", as opposed to "kill abortionist Dr. X, and here's where he lives".

The last one is a crime.

297 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:38:24pm

re: #286 Charles

You're calling "straw man," yet you just posted a comment accusing me of wanting to suppress free speech -- which I have never once advocated. I think you need to brush up on the meaning of a "straw man argument."

Making a statement that supports freedom of speech without suggesting approval of its message does not make one a cheerleader for murdering abortionists. A demogogue's argument - misrepresenting or falsely presenting another's point of view for the purpose of knocking it down.

298 SpartanWoman  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:38:35pm

I am pro-life, I am not pro-murder, and I am in no way responsible for Tiller's murder no matter what twisty "logic" is used.

299 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:39:40pm

re: #291 brainsample

Let's see:
I am a pro life Catholic (and no, that's not necessarily redundant). I support crisis pregnancy centers through donations of money and clothing. I have close friends who pray the rosary standing out in front of Planned Parenthood. So I'm indirectly responsible for the murder of Tiller and I'm supposed to apologize?

Ain't happenin'.

Because I oppose racial preferences and voted against Obama, I'm supposed to apologize for the KKK?

No, you aren't "supposed to apologize" and I didn't say you were. But groups like Lifenews.com that are trying to lie, and say that Roeder had "no connection to the pro-life" movement -- yes, they should apologize.

300 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:39:52pm

re: #296 quickjustice

There is a legal difference between saying, "I hate abortionists", or "abortionists should be killed", as opposed to "kill abortionist Dr. X, and here's where he lives".

The last one is a crime.

I would say it is a tort at the least. Stupid at best.

301 y0kkles  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:39:53pm

I think Charles is getting carried away here. He is no fan of the pro-life movement and he is using this isolated incident to paint us in a bad light. How many abortion doctors have been killed in the last 20 years? I venture to say you could count them on your fingers. It's clearly wrong, but it's not exactly a pandemic. Nuts infect every movement, cause, and group. It's not unique to the pro-life movement.

99.99% of people in the pro-life movement wouldn't ever do such a terrible thing. I give money to the national right to life and they condemn this behavior.

How do you suggest I "man up" and take responsibility for him, since he is one of mine? I'll apologize for his actions and condemn them, but seriously what else do you want me to do?

302 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:40:55pm

re: #301 y0kkles

I've heard two or four in the U.S. over the past 35 years. There are sure a lot of crazies out there gunning for them. (sarcasm)

303 acacia  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:41:46pm

re: #298 SpartanWoman

Well said. I think there are millions who think like this.

304 Shug  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:42:54pm

re: #294 Charles

Shock value. pure and simple. That's what they want.

It does not inspire me or 99.99% of sane people to want to murder an abortion doctor, but it might inspire the mentally ill person to do so, in the same way that showing KSM killing Nick Berg might cause a mentally ill person to shoot up some Mosque, or showing dead Palestinian Children will inspire a suicide bomber.

It's a messed up world.
It sickens me that there are headless babies, and it sickens me that these poor children are used as pawns to support the case of people who want to incite violence

305 KansasMom  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:44:07pm

re: #290 spudly
As far as legal challenges, there has been a recent high-profile one. Interesting you would bring up the HIPAA requirements, which were blatently disregarded by Kline (while he was AG) in order to create a case against Tiller. Nevertheless, patient records CAN and WERE supeoned, a thorough investigation was conducted, Tiller was charged and tried for 19 of the cases that were investigated. He was acquitted.
I believe the frustration over losing that court case led directly to yesterday's event.

306 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:44:10pm

Anti-abortion violence:

Incidents in the United States

Murders

In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least 9 people, including 5 doctors, 2 clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[4]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of the year before. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

June 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside of another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings, received a death sentence, and was executed September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi, who prior to his arrest was distributing pamphlets from Human Life International,[5] was arrested and confessed to the killings. He committed suicide in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.

October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.

May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed as he served as an usher at his church in Wichita, Kansas.[6]

A fifth doctor, George Patterson, was shot and killed in Mobile, Alabama on August 21, 1993, but it is uncertain whether his death was the direct result of his profession or rather a robbery.

[continued...]

307 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:44:56pm

re: #293 Slumbering Behemoth

That's not correct. You're confusing statutory law with common law. Common law is non-statutory, judge-made law originating in England. IIRC, abortion was a minor crime under common law. The U.S. states adopted common law as their law, in the absence of statute, after 1776.

308 Shug  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:45:17pm

1 murdered abortion doctor is 1 too many.

to those of you who are saying it isn't a problem since only a few have been taken out, then give me your number of what would be too many.

i've given you my number : 1

309 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:45:32pm

re: #302 picaro

I've heard two or four in the U.S. over the past 35 years. There are sure a lot of crazies out there gunning for them. (sarcasm)

Correct. See my #255. As fresh as this news is today, the crazies are statistical outliers (one of the few terms I preserved from statistics 101).

310 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:46:19pm

re: #297 picaro

I'm asking you questions to clarify your "criminal" thought process, and you're screaming "straw man"? Nice try.

311 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:46:30pm
Attempted murder, assault, and threats

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[8] The attempted murders were:[9][10][4]

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 31-year prison sentence.

June 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the same-day shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

December 18, 1996: Dr. Calvin Jackson of New Orleans, Louisiana was stabbed 15 times, losing 4 pints of blood. Donald Cooper was charged with second-degree attempted murder and sentenced to 20 years.[11]

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[12]

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Anthrax threats

The first letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting, and since then, there have been a total of 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.[13][9]

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare on December 3, 2003.

[continued...]

312 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:47:13pm
Arson, bombing, and property crime

According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[8] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] More recent incidents have included:[4]

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."[15][16][17]

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.[18]

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire on resulted in damage estimated at US$20,000. The case remains unsolved.[19]

September 30, 2000: A Catholic priest drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being shot at by a security guard.[20]

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages. [18]

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.[18]

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there. [21]

September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinc.[22]

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime. [23]

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.[24]

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic. [25]

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness [26]rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.

313 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:48:44pm
Incidents in Canada

Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[9][10]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unindentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.[28]

Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[29]

May 18, 1992: A Toronto, Ontario clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[30]

Incidents in Australia

July 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the face and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.[31]

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

314 Bloodnok  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:48:57pm

re: #302 picaro

I've heard two or four in the U.S. over the past 35 years. There are sure a lot of crazies out there gunning for them. (sarcasm)

I really couldn't care less about whether or not it was sarcastic, but your choice of words considering what happened yesterday was classless to say the least.

315 spudly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:49:00pm

The whole "connection" aspect is hard to get worked up about, unless there is actual support of such action (clearly the comments cheerleading the murder fall into that category, as would even allowing such commentary on a site, IMO).

So any pro-life sites that allow this type of commentary are de facto supporting the murder I think.

That is the difference with LGF, anyone cheerleading would be gone, and the comment(s) deleted. An organization that allows that type of speech is passively supporting and validating that speech. Note that I feel the same about horrid stuff that was allowed to remain for months on the Obama election website, for example. It is the duty of an organization with a web presence to police themselves. I think that free speech is great, but if it's on an organization's website, it absolutely reflects on the organization if they allow it.

They are not the State, they have no requirement not to police speech on THEIR website.

316 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:49:42pm

Does that look like just a few insignificant isolated incidents?

317 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:50:10pm

re: #308 Shug


1 murdered abortion doctor is 1 too many.

to those of you who are saying it isn't a problem since only a few have been taken out, then give me your number of what would be too many.

i've given you my number : 1

"Not a problem"? I didn't see anyone say that. Yes, 1 murder of any kind is too many. I just said it is so rare, especially when compared to the millions upon millions of people who strongly disagree with it, that the rarity itself is proof that most of these groups are policing themselves.

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:50:41pm

Charles, thanks for posting all that.

319 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:51:16pm

re: #317 Spenser (with an S)

"Not a problem"? I didn't see anyone say that. Yes, 1 murder of any kind is too many. I just said it is so rare, especially when compared to the millions upon millions of people who strongly disagree with it, that the rarity itself is proof that most of these groups are policing themselves.

See the comment(s) above yours.

320 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:52:27pm

re: #310 quickjustice

I'm asking you questions to clarify your "criminal" thought process, and you're screaming "straw man"? Nice try.

"You really are a cheerleader for murdering abortion docs, aren't you?"
is more of an accusation than a clarifying question. But to answer it: No.

321 picaro  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 1:59:23pm

re: #314 Bloodnok

I really couldn't care less about whether or not it was sarcastic, but your choice of words considering what happened yesterday was classless to say the least.

If you actually understood that in context with my other comments, you would know that I do not approve of either the act or of linking the actions of one or a few people to every person who opposes abortion as a matter of principle or belief. That is like saying: "A ________ did/believes ______. So, all _________ do/believe/approve of _______."
Blaming a group for the actions of an individual is wrong. Are all Arabs guilty of terrorist acts - unless they grovel and apologize for another's actions?

322 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:01:04pm

I stand corrected. Black Law Dictionary (8th Edition) at 6 states, "Modern legal historians dispute whether, and to what extent, abortion constitute a crime at English common law. One view finds that, at most, abortion was an ecclesiastical crime, and concludes that the common law allowed a woman and her abortionist to terminate a pregnancy at all stages of gestation without secular penalties. Another claims that all abortions are at least secular wrongs to the fetus and that only the problem of proving a causal relationship between some abortions and fetal death prevented the punishment of all abortions. Substantial authority exists for a middle ground: although no penalties attached to an abortion before the fetus had quickened, performing a postquickening abortion was a common law crime, most likely a misdemeanor." Susan Frelich Appleton, "Abortion", in 1 Encyclopedia of Crime and Justice 1, 1 (Sanford H. Kadish ed., 1983).

323 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:01:16pm
324 spudly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:01:45pm

re: #316 Charles

Does that look like just a few insignificant isolated incidents?

I'm not downplaying how wrong these killing or attempted killings are. But 17 in 32 years is indeed pretty insignificant I think. There have been more than 17 attempted murders by postal workers in that time range, right?

Again, it's WRONG, period. The groups that encourage it? WRONG, period.

None the less, this is literally on the order of the number of homicidal kooks in ANY group quite possibly. I suppose you could look at the number of perps as a function of group membership and then it might look worse than average. Without "doing the math" it's hard to tell if their rate of murder is any worse than any other interest group at random.

Not taking a side as to which is true, just saying I don't know without seeing the numbers that go with the anecdotal evidence.

325 ihateronpaul  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:02:22pm

re: #39 reine.de.tout

No, it does not speak well for THOSE PEOPLE who are commenting, nor for the sites that accept those comments and let them stand.
Not one bit.
Very upsetting
One cannot be pro-life, and then OK with murder. No way.

So are pro-lifers against the dealth penalty? I've met quite a few that aren't and quite frankly I find them hypocritical.

326 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:02:51pm

re: #321 picaro

...I do not approve of either the act or of linking the actions of one or a few people to every person who opposes abortion as a matter of principle or belief....

And that's a textbook example of a straw man argument, because no one has done that. In fact, in my post above, I very clearly made a point of NOT linking this to "every person who opposes abortion."

327 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:05:39pm

#323 crabtree:

Bye now! Sorry, your flounce-off comment has been deleted.

328 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:06:36pm

That's two flounce-offs so far.

329 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:07:29pm

re: #325 ihateronpaul

So are pro-lifers against the dealth penalty? I've met quite a few that aren't and quite frankly I find them hypocritical.

Capital punishment of a criminal by the state after a trial = ending an innocent life before it can draw a breath? Can't see your logic here. These two positions are not at odds.

330 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:07:29pm

re: #278 J.S.

I thought websites which targeted abortion doctors (like using "wanted" posters and listing names and addresses, etc.) was deemed by the US Supreme Court as "incitement" to violence and was not to be tolerated...

It's a matter of enforcement. During the Bush Administration, OR wasn't a priority, and their prosecution, though well deserved, was sidetracked to keep the religious right happy.

Huge mistake. It gave insane theocrats like Terry, Robertson and others a feeling of real power. Now, they are feeling that power is threatened, and are ramping up their incitement to new levels in an attempt to get as much "accomplished" as they can before the Federal hammer falls.

It should have fallen years ago. There is no question that what OR and similar groups are doing is blatantly illegal. They need to be prosecuted for it, thoroughly and harshly.

331 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:07:39pm

Please note that people who are disagreeing with me are not being banned. There are plenty of people disagreeing in this thread.

But people who lose their tempers and spew insults and whine about "now you're gonna probably ban me" -- yep, that's right, I am.

332 quickjustice  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:08:09pm

re: #323 crabtree

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. The mother's state of mind isn't the determining factor once a fetus becomes viable. That's a matter of law.

333 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:09:12pm

re: #324 spudly

I'm not downplaying how wrong these killing or attempted killings are. But 17 in 32 years is indeed pretty insignificant I think.

So all the attempted murders, bombings, vandalism, threats, and intimidation -- those don't even register on your scale?

334 RonSonic  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:14:38pm

A connection would be if Operation Rescue had Roeder's number on a post-it note.

Think about this. If some nutcase who comments here occasionally goes off and shoots up a mosque and is caught with your phone number written down, does that connect you? I don't think so. I don't think anyone honest would. Plenty of dishonest people would jump at the chance to claim a connection.

335 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:14:39pm

re: #293 Slumbering Behemoth

A brief history of the abortion controversy in the United States.

In the United States, abortion laws began to appear in the 1820s, forbidding abortion after the fourth month of pregnancy.

You don't say. I wasn't aware of that. Even in Belgium (!) abortion was outlawed until the early 1980s, when it was depenalized in the first 3 months of pregnancy.

Note that even in super-liberal Holland (where Belgians traveled to get their 1st-trimester abortions before they became depenalized in Belgium), third-trimester abortions are not just de facto forbidden by law but legally (Art. 82a of the Penal Code) considered equivalent to, I quote: "een ander, of een kind bij of kort na de geboorte, van het leven beroven" (depriving another, or a child of life at or shortly after birth), punishable by up to 4.5 years in prison.

[Link: nl.wikipedia.org...]

The legal criterion under said law is "[het doden van] een vrucht die naar redelijkerwijs verwacht mag worden in staat is buiten het moederlichaam in leven te blijven" ([the killing of] a fetus that can reasonably be expected to be viable outside the mother's body). The Ministry of Health currently interprets this criterion as a cutoff at 24 weeks. A "force majeure" clause applies if the life of the mother is endangered.

2nd-trimester abortions are legal in Holland, but with more restrictions than 1st-trimester. There is a 5-day waiting period in all cases. A doctor may refuse to perform an abortion and is not required to refer to a colleague who will: he merely needs to notify the applicant up front, in writing.

"Plan B"/"Morning after pill" type things are not considered abortions under Dutch (or Belgian) law and are easy to obtain in both countries.

336 Bloodnok  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:15:19pm

re: #321 picaro

If you actually understood that in context with my other comments, you would know that I do not approve of either the act or of linking the actions of one or a few people to every person who opposes abortion as a matter of principle or belief. That is like saying: "A ________ did/believes ______. So, all _________ do/believe/approve of _______."
Blaming a group for the actions of an individual is wrong. Are all Arabs guilty of terrorist acts - unless they grovel and apologize for another's actions?

My comment made no mention of anything other than your choice of words; to be specific "gunning for them". You can try to rope me into the argument that you'd rather have, but I'm not going to play along.

337 Million Dollar Man  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:19:57pm

If you are as vociferously "pro-life" as many of the leading groups are, you can call Roeder one of your own.

These people believe the doctor was a mass-murderer. Clearly, nobody would be upset if a true mass-murderer was shot dead. But the point is, abortion is not mass murder. If you believe it is, you are practically lying if you say you don't condone these kinds of killings.

338 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:21:13pm

re: #235 JohnH

Since you insist that the pro-life movement "man-up" and take responsibility for this nut, then will you do likewise and "man-up" for every bad thing done by someone who cites Darwin?

You're comparing apples and Formula 1 racecars, fella.

339 SixDegrees  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:22:11pm

re: #334 RonSonic

A connection would be if Operation Rescue had Roeder's number on a post-it note.

Think about this. If some nutcase who comments here occasionally goes off and shoots up a mosque and is caught with your phone number written down, does that connect you? I don't think so. I don't think anyone honest would. Plenty of dishonest people would jump at the chance to claim a connection.

Yes, your example absolutely proves a connection.

It would be up to you, then, to repudiate that connection's implications.

340 Million Dollar Man  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:25:47pm

I think the debate over abortion is getting out of control. The "pro-choice" side removes any reference to life, while the "pro-life" movement never looks at what women have to go through.

It's deranged to seriously believe that millions of women happily murder babies, or that abortion doctors are satanic figures that enjoy killing.

AT the same time, it's ridiculous to see a fetus as nothing but part of an abstract concept of"choice"

People need to think this over more carefully.

341 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:26:39pm

re: #337 Million Dollar Man


If you believe it is, you are practically lying if you say you don't condone these kinds of killings.

No, we're not. It is a matter of the rule of law. We respect it, this nut did not. We're trying to change hearts and minds and this psycho did a lot of damage and another "doctor" will take up his slack tomorrow.

342 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:27:01pm

re: #266 picaro

I have not seen any cheerleading, much less thousands of posts.

Plenty has been linked to and quoted here. If you haven't seen it, it's because you don't want to, not because it's not there.

343 Former Belgian  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:29:04pm

re: #337 Million Dollar Man

If you are as vociferously "pro-life" as many of the leading groups are, you can call Roeder one of your own.

These people believe the doctor was a mass-murderer. Clearly, nobody would be upset if a true mass-murderer was shot dead. But the point is, abortion is not mass murder. If you believe it is, you are practically lying if you say you don't condone these kinds of killings.

Let's see: suppose I believed that the people who banned DDT are responsible for millions of deaths to malaria in the Third World. (The case for that is pretty strong.) Does that mean I condone dragging them out and stringing them up, or does it make me a liar if I don't?

If so, then believing in the rule of law and rejecting 'lynch justice' makes one a 'liar'?

/Is there a formal name for a "fallacy of false contradiction"?

344 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:29:47pm
345 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:30:31pm

re: #266 picaro

I hope that those posters think hard about the type of society we would have if everyone meted out what they thought was justice.

It would be nice if the anti-abortion groups, such as the one cited as saying "putting and end to Dr. Tiller", would remind their membership of that idea.

346 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:34:36pm
347 Chekote  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:36:25pm

I have posted several times on other right wing websites like Hot Air, RedState that the pro-life movement needed to tone down the rhetoric. Comparisons to the Holocaust, abolitionist movement might be great fund raising devices but it is incendiary and irresponsible. I have been the target of bullying on the part of pro-lifers just because I hold a pro-choice position when it comes to the early stages of pregnancy. I have been called a pig, baby killer and Mengele. The rhetoric is absolutely insane. Once can support the pro-life cause without engaging in this type of over the top rhetoric. I hope that right wing blogs learn their lessons and begin policing the posts.

348 Chekote  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:40:23pm

"I've vociferously condemned child molestation on my blog"

What many pro-life sites do goes beyond condemning abortion. They compare anyone associated with this issue as being part of a Holocaust like murder of children.

349 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:40:29pm

re: #344 rhymeswithright

And to those who argue that we pro-lifers are responsible for -- or secretly support -

There is absolutely nothing secret about the shockingly widespread support for Tiller's murder from pro lifers on right wing blogs and news comment pages that we have all seen in the last 24 hours. Not to mention from the founder of Operation Rescue as well.

Unreal.

350 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:41:46pm

re: #344 rhymeswithright


And to those who argue that we pro-lifers are responsible for -- or secretly support -- Tiller's murder.

I don't think anyone (that I've seen here at least) is saying that about ALL pro-lifers. . .merely that it's likely that OR was aware they might incite such incidents, which logically leads one to the realization they have at least a degree of support for such acts. Given that numerous examples of such a murder of a doctor have been cited here, we know that for some in the Pro-Life movement, it goes way beyond tacit approval into the realm of action. It's logical to assume that within the pro-life movement, there's a full spectrum of positions which fall somewhere between condemning these acts, and committing them themselves.

351 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:42:34pm
352 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:43:40pm

re: #347 Chekote

I have been the target of bullying on the part of pro-lifers just because I hold a pro-choice position when it comes to the early stages of pregnancy. I have been called a pig, baby killer and Mengele. The rhetoric is absolutely insane.

Yeah, I got the same thing (I was called Hitler and a eugenecist), but at Malkin's site, so I feel ya :)

353 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:49:11pm
354 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:49:12pm

re: #351 Blazer in RIC

'Imaginary boogiemen'? Tell that to Dr Tiller's family, dickhead.

355 Chekote  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:01pm

Yashmak

It is absolutely insane. And it does nothing to reduce the number of abortions. I am convinced that for some pro-lifers is not so much about "saving lives". It is about feeling good about themselves. You know, look at me I am so moral. I am standing up for innocent children. That is, unborn children because once born the concern pretty much dissipates. I hope that the Tiller family goes after the groups, sites that condoned or looked the other way as the rhetoric dialed up.

356 MrSoCal  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:05pm

So if he voted for (name your least favorite politician) and has the phone number (house, senate, whitehouse) in his blackbook, is that a connection? Give me a break. The guy is a nutjob. He is connected to all the nutjobs. Period.

357 JamesWI  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:53:06pm

From everyone's favorite stalker blog:

"What this means, Charles, is that someone who goes out and commits cold-blooded murder isn’t a Christian. By definition. "

Where have we seen this logic before? (looking in furry's direction Never mind the fact that the biblical passages they cite for this ridiculous conclusion lists the following as "non-christians" according to the stalker - "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like."

In other words, following their strained logic, anyone who has sinned, in any way, ever, "isn't a Christian. By definition." So apparently there are no Christians on the planet that satisfy the stalker's criteria. Some people will say anything to avoid owning up to even the slightest bit of responsibility.

358 Chekote  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:56:36pm

I find the people of Operation Rescue and that Father Pavone macabre. I think they need psychological help. I can appreaciate their views about abortions but I don't see the need to go through trash and dig up body parts. There is something very wrong with them IMHO.

359 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:57:17pm

re: #344 rhymeswithright

I won't tone down my rhetoric in the least...

Then you can just piss off.

360 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 2:58:06pm

re: #354 Jimmah

'Imaginary boogiemen'? Tell that to Dr Tiller's family, dickhead.

Damn.

361 nikis-knight  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:01:21pm

re: #10 FurryOldGuyJeans

Long time past for pro-lifers to be a "moderate Muslim" and condemn the actions of the jihadis, as you did.

Feh. I condmen it, but there is a bit difference between 4 killings over forty years and dozens or hundreds or thousands a time on multiple occasions.

362 Yashmak  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:02:09pm

re: #357 JamesWI

From everyone's favorite stalker blog:

"What this means, Charles, is that someone who goes out and commits cold-blooded murder isn’t a Christian. By definition. "

Isn't this the no-true-scotsman argument yet again?

363 Aye Pod  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:05:30pm

re: #362 Yashmak

Isn't this the no-true-scotsman argument yet again?

Yep. Betcha these same people pilloried muslims who made the same argument regarding the 9/11 attackers - only to trot out the same rubbish when one of 'their own' turned terrorist.

364 nikis-knight  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:05:52pm

re: #40 Charles

A message in the video says: "Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes..."

How else would you interpret that?


Calling for legislative action. Sounds like a fairly rote political message, if you were to be honest. Sure, it sounds bad in retrospect, but also just like any thousand political ads on any thousand of subjects.

365 spudly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:07:39pm

re: #333 Charles

So all the attempted murders, bombings, vandalism, threats, and intimidation -- those don't even register on your scale?

They absolutely register. Don't misunderstand me.

We know exactly how many there are. To determine if they are significant we need to know the group memberships of the perps. Then we can compare the rate of such criminality within those groups (the number of cases we have) with similar criminality for the population at large.

It's only significant if "pro-life" group criminality rates exceeds the population at large, right?

For example, X% of the population at large are off the rails unibomber types. If OR has a HIGHER rate than X%, clearly they attract, encourage, even suborn such criminality. If their rate is the same or less than the population at large, then they have a group that is similar to any other group in the US at random, which might happen to have a homicidal nut as a member.

A post office employee can "go postal," but if that happens only rarely, there is no reason to paint the PO employee population as MORE likely to murder than any other.

See what I mean?

Add up all that criminal behavior, compare to pro-life membership, and see how the rate of criminality compares to the pop at large, or even other political/activist groups.

I'm sure some of those groups might have higher than average criminality, while others might be lower. If we knew the membership stats, we could "do the math" at least in a ballpark way.

366 nikis-knight  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 3:14:13pm

re: #364 nikis-knight
No, I retract that--"ending so-and-so" is appallingly bad phrasing if there is an innocent meaning behind it, and so I was wrong in my above response.

367 CJDate  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:00:23pm

As a member of the pro-life community, the murder of George Tiller makes me sick. I was a little more active back in the 90's (Planned Parenthood has a video dossier on me, filmed during some peaceful protests I was involved with.) A lot of us worked very hard to root out anyone with violent tendencies. (After repeated attempts at counseling one 18-year-old kid who wanted thought shooting abortionists was justified, we ended up telling the authorities about him.) This is the first abortionist killed in over 10 years, so we must have been at least a little successful in our efforts.

My activities always were more along the lines of pregnancy assistance, helping women in problem pregnancies, adoption services. I haven't been on the front lines at all recently, but all I can say is that 100% of the people I know in the movement renounce violence of this type.

Yes, I wanted George Tiller stopped -- legally. Not this way. I hope that Roeder gets the (legal) death penalty for his murder.

368 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:01:24pm

Charles,

This was an irresponsible post on your part.

Your insistence that "anti-abortion groups" have to own up to Scott Roeder as one of their own is much like when an anti-LGF group claims that you have to own up to Rush Limbaugh or the Discovery Institute or Pamela Geller as one of your own.

There are SOME anti-abortion groups that have to own up to Scott Roeder. There are SOME anti-abortion groups that advocate violence, that have to tone down the rhetoric and act more responsibly. But the vast majority of anti-abortion groups, in my experience, are "pro-life" in the truest sense of the word. Within minutes of shootings like this, most of the "mainstream" pro-life movement comes out with harsh words condemning the killing. They don't merely try to distance themselves from the individual, but from the entire ideology of using violence against abortionists. See, for example, the National Right to Life's statement here.

To make it entirely concrete, Charles: how do you think National Right to Life "should" respond to the tragic murder of Dr. Tiller? What would be the appropriate response from them? How should they "own up" to Scott Roeder and the various other wackjobs who are coming out of the woodwork? What should they do differently from what they've already done?

369 gtrs  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:12:29pm

re: #368 LotharBot pardon me while i disagree

370 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:15:51pm

re: #369 gtrs

gtrs, I don't mind disagreement, but I do prefer it to have some substance. What, specifically, are you disagreeing with, and on what principle? And how would you answer my series of questions concerning how National Right to Life should respond?

371 Gretchen  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 4:27:36pm
Roeder also posted comments at anti-abortion websites, subscribed to anti-abortion magazines (including one that advocated the murder of doctors who perform abortions), and when he was arrested he had a Post-It note in his car containing the phone number of Operation Rescue. Exactly how do you qualify to have “connections to the pro-life” movement, if this doesn’t do it?

I'm of the opinion this is an unfair characterization of this guy. I think you qualify by being elected an officer or having some official capacity. If one of the occassional or even regular posters here advocated staging a protest outside a Senator's home, then ended up killing him, would you consider it fair for LGF to be implicated in the poster's insanity? He had Operation Rescue's phone number, not a business card saying he was the Director of Operation Rescue. The guy was a nut, obviously anti-abortion, but certainly not like most anti-abortion protesters.

Additionally what he did was horrible, however, what he did in no way generally threatened the population in the way McVeigh and Nichols did or the 911 bombers did. He's a murderer, they are terrorists and more in line with the DOJ report.

372 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:02:18pm

I spent a large portion of yesterday looking at comments and blog posts on this issue, all over the web, and for anyone to tell me that there isn't a HUGE problem with extreme rhetoric in the pro-life movement -- well, I'm sorry, but that just doesn't wash. I was disgusted and appalled at the outpouring of support for the murder of Dr. Tiller. It's not a small group of people who feel this way, and it's not just a few extremists either.

All of the pro-life groups need to recognize their part in cultivating an increasingly extreme outlook on the abortion issue. I know this may not be a popular viewpoint among conservatives, and I'm sure it will get me a lot more abuse, but after what I saw happen yesterday I'm utterly convinced there's a very, very serious problem here. And it's going to get worse unless people start making a real effort to ratchet down the rhetoric and start behaving responsibly.

373 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:15:46pm

Charles: "All of the pro-life groups need to recognize their part in cultivating an increasingly extreme outlook on the abortion issue."

"All"? Like I said, you're being irresponsible in your characterization. Many pro-life groups have fought very strongly against the use of violence in response to abortion. There is an extreme problem with violent rhetoric -- but there are also many pro-life groups that have been combating that violent rhetoric at least since 1963.

My parents, pacifists (and therefore anti-violence) to the core, were president and VP of a state Right to Life chapter for many years. There was nothing "irresponsible" about any of their chapter meetings or their marches or their rallies. There was no cultivation of extreme outlooks. There was just a recognition of tragedy and a desire to work toward the end of that tragedy through peaceful, legal, means such as educating the public. I remember my dad writing the press release after a previous murder of an abortionist, and it was much like the one I linked above -- violence isn't justified against anyone, and we are sad for the family of the man who was murdered. And he really was sad about it.

(Unfortunate ending: some extremists, of the sort who'd be cheering Tiller's murder, exploited a loophole in RtL's state bylaws to create a whole bunch of new voting districts, and essentially voted themselves into power in the state RtL chapter. The national org cut off that state org because of it, and started a new state org in its place.)

So, again, Charles, let me ask you: what should National Right to Life (a specific organization) do that they're not already doing? What concrete steps can that organization take against anti-abortion violence that they're not already taking?

374 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:16:59pm

P.S. you're pretty quick on the dingdown today. Not cool.

375 Thoughtful  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:20:42pm

As I mentioned before in the comments, I am a pro-life Catholic. I once got on the "Lifenews.com" mailing list (probably still am) because someone included my work email in a mass mailing (folks, learn how to use BCC already) that included them. An interesting experience it was. After a few days of reading their spam, I pleaded to be removed, but to no avail (especially as their trash was being sent to my work email). I even got an actual human response that said they would remove me (heh, right). To this day, my mail rules just delete anything from that address -- it doesn't even end up in junk.

My idea of a good protest is praying silently outside an abortion clinic. I did that - once. I've found it more productive to volunteer and donate to free clinics that support the mothers of newborns, provide information on adoption options, and other alternatives to abortion. There's little Gov. funding there, so they need the help.

Charles, their is a little Christian/Irish/Rock group out there called "Ceili Rain" ([Link: www.ceilirain.com...] Give a listen to their song called "Junkyard" sometime.

Folks, if you are genuinely pro-life, take a clue from this song, and don't turn your mind into a junkyard. Pro-life is not about hate -- but many try to make it so.

376 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:30:14pm

Charles,

in the DHS Right-Wing-Extremism poster boy thread, you spoke about the report being narrowly focused, carefully targeted, and not a broad-brush smear (here).

Yet you're quick to target "all" pro-life groups in this thread. Why the disconnect? Why not step back and say "some" pro-life groups or "extreme" pro-life groups? Why not show the same care and focus that you are quick to note from the DHS report? Better yet, why not step up with some positive feedback for those pro-life groups that agree with you, that have made it a point to say "Tiller's murder was wrong" and that have consistently over their history been a voice of reason in their calls for a peaceful, legal, ethical approach to reducing or ending abortion?

377 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:41:11pm

I am not a fan of National Right to Life, and looking at their website I see all kinds of stuff I would call extreme -- fantasies about "human embryo farms," the "Terri Schiavo Legacy Project," etc. etc. You, of course, don't see it -- and that's a large part of the problem.

378 jaunte  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:53:16pm

Here's a way to make a pro-life difference.
[Link: www.google.com...]

379 spudly  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:55:54pm

Ratcheting up their rhetoric is clearly a poor idea, all I was saying is that I'm willing to withhold judgement on the veracity of the idea that various groups are creating violence until I see data that demonstrates their membership to be more violent than the population at large (which it may well be, I have no idea).

380 LotharBot  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 5:58:43pm

Charles, perhaps there is plenty on the NRLC website that you would call "extreme" (though I'm not seeing it -- maybe you should point it out instead of making me guess your definition of "extreme"), but as far as I can tell, none of it falls into the category of extremism that's at issue here. NRLC takes a hard-line approach to abortion, and perhaps that's "extreme", but they also take a clear stand against violence against abortionists. I don't see anything that would tend to foster VIOLENCE on their site, and I see plenty of explicit statements against it. So how is what they're saying "irresponsible", specifically in the context of the murder of Dr. Tiller? What, SPECIFICALLY, should they change about the way they go about business?

I understand disagreement with NRLC on various points regarding abortion. I just don't get how you go from that to "this organization is irresponsible" or "this organization needs to tone down view X or it's going to cause more of these incidents".

381 Gretchen  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 6:01:09pm

re: #374 LotharBot

P.S. you're pretty quick on the dingdown today. Not cool.

Hey tried to upding you but updinging isn't working for me. Don't know what the issue is I am logged in.

382 chineena  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:09:21pm

"The apparent purpose of the video: to encourage the murder of Dr. George Tiller."

That comment is just plain stupid.

383 shwaiutah  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 9:30:39pm

I watched the video and it certainly makes me think it is an anti-abortion video, certainly not a "go out and kill an abortion doctor" video.
When the "pro-choice" individuals say that they need to have their choice protected, I wonder if they forgot about all the other choices that led to the pregnancy? I don't know anyone that "just got pregnant." They made out, groped (sic?), each other, removed the appropriate clothing, chose not to use birth control and had intercourse. Now, one could argue that some pregnancies do occur with birth control. Fair enough. But I am pretty sure that NO ONE has ever gotten pregnant without having sex.
I am religious, I don't condone killing the abortion "doctor" and I think that the guy who killed him should be put in the electric chair.
But just to be a smart alec for a minute, according to Janeane Garofalo anyone who is conservative is "brain damaged," ergo, the guy who killed the doctor and is "anti-abortion" and likely "conservative" is likely not accountable for his actions and should be put into a mental institution until he can be "fixed." It wasn't his fault!
Right?
OF COURSE NOT! That guy made his choice and should be held accountable. I think the dr. will be, too, but not in this realm. I do believe there will be a special place in hell for the guy, but the shooter is going to be right there with him.

384 JimK  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 10:47:12pm

“Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes."

Um. What do you expect him to say: "We can make abortion safe, legal and rare?"

When did LGF become so intellectually lax?

385 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:46:56pm

re: #384 JimK

“Together We Can Put An End To George Tiller, Abortion and These Horrific Crimes."

Um. What do you expect him to say: "We can make abortion safe, legal and rare?"

When did LGF become so intellectually lax?

In the english vernacular, putting an end to someone usually means killing them, nimrod.

386 Salamantis  Mon, Jun 1, 2009 11:49:33pm

re: #383 shwaiutah

I watched the video and it certainly makes me think it is an anti-abortion video, certainly not a "go out and kill an abortion doctor" video.
When the "pro-choice" individuals say that they need to have their choice protected, I wonder if they forgot about all the other choices that led to the pregnancy? I don't know anyone that "just got pregnant." They made out, groped (sic?), each other, removed the appropriate clothing, chose not to use birth control and had intercourse. Now, one could argue that some pregnancies do occur with birth control. Fair enough. But I am pretty sure that NO ONE has ever gotten pregnant without having sex.
I am religious, I don't condone killing the abortion "doctor" and I think that the guy who killed him should be put in the electric chair.
But just to be a smart alec for a minute, according to Janeane Garofalo anyone who is conservative is "brain damaged," ergo, the guy who killed the doctor and is "anti-abortion" and likely "conservative" is likely not accountable for his actions and should be put into a mental institution until he can be "fixed." It wasn't his fault!
Right?
OF COURSE NOT! That guy made his choice and should be held accountable. I think the dr. will be, too, but not in this realm. I do believe there will be a special place in hell for the guy, but the shooter is going to be right there with him.

So married couples should be celibate unless they wanna add to the family? No recreation unless in the servic of procreation?

Hmm; I didn't know that there were still Puritans around.

387 JimK  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:08am

re: #385 Salamantis

In the english vernacular, putting an end to someone usually means killing them, nimrod.

Salamantis, I think "putting an end" is capable of several different meanings in this context. For example, I took it to mean putting an end to his business.

Do you have more context for this quote? It seems like you naturally went to the most unlikely one because it suits your purpose.

In any case, thank you for resorting to name calling to show your ignorance. Very helpful.

388 Aye Pod  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 4:08:45am

re: #387 JimK

Salamantis, I think "putting an end" is capable of several different meanings in this context. For example, I took it to mean putting an end to his business.

Do you have more context for this quote? It seems like you naturally went to the most unlikely one because it suits your purpose.

In any case, thank you for resorting to name calling to show your ignorance. Very helpful.

Utter excreta. "Putting an end to" a person means killing them. The context leaves no doubt whatsoever, being a video in which the man we are supposed to "put an end to" is described as an evil mass murderer, over and over again.

You are pathetic, Jim K.

389 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:14:21am

re: #387 JimK

Salamantis, I think "putting an end" is capable of several different meanings in this context. For example, I took it to mean putting an end to his business.

Do you have more context for this quote? It seems like you naturally went to the most unlikely one because it suits your purpose.

In any case, thank you for resorting to name calling to show your ignorance. Very helpful.

It doesn't talk about putting an end to Dr. Tiller's business; it talks about putting an end to Dr. Tiller. Period. Direct fucking quote.

And someone took him up on it.

And it may be impolite to call a person what they in fact have demonstrated themselves to be, but the truth, by definition, can never be an insult. You are a nimrod. Your twisted and language-mangling attempts to minimize this clear call for a man's death amply and abundantly demonstrate same.

390 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:15:55am

re: #389 Salamantis

It doesn't talk about putting an end to Dr. Tiller's business; it talks about putting an end to Dr. Tiller. Period. Direct fucking quote.

And someone took him up on it.

And it may be impolite to call a person what they in fact have demonstrated themselves to be, but the truth, by definition, can never be an insult. You are a nimrod. Your twisted and language-mangling attempts to minimize this clear call for a man's death murder amply and abundantly demonstrate same.

FTFmyself


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