Phone Number in Roeder’s Car Belongs to Woman Convicted in Abortion Clinic Bombing Plot

US News • Views: 4,621

As we noted last Sunday, when murder suspect Scott Roeder was arrested, the phone number of Operation Rescue was discovered on a Post-It note in his car.

Now it turns out that this wasn’t just the phone number of the Operation Rescue office, but of a specific person: Cheryl Sullenger, the senior policy adviser for Operation Rescue — who was herself convicted in 1988 of conspiring to bomb a California abortion clinic, and served two years in prison.

Sullenger’s name even appears on the Operation Rescue press release about the murder of Dr. George Tiller.

So now we learn that one of the senior officials for Operation Rescue (who are spinning like crazy to portray themselves as a non-extremist group with no connections to violence or to Scott Roeder) is a convicted felon in an abortion clinic bombing plot. Isn’t that lovely?

Sullenger’s statement to Kansas City paper The Pitch:

Sullenger tells The Pitch that she hasn’t spoken with Roeder recently.

“No, he hasn’t called me recently,” Sullenger said. “No.”

She went on: “You know, he’s somebody who’s been around. My name is on the Internet. It’s on every press release. My phone number is on every press release it. It’s all over the internet. I don’t know. He probably has lots of people’s phone numbers. You know? So I don’t know. I don’t have any more comment other than that.”

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841 comments
1 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:35:02am

Oh Boy!

2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:35:08am

Nothing to see here, just coincidence, I tells ya!

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

3 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:35:19am
She went on: “You know, he’s somebody who’s been around. My name is on the Internet. It’s on every press release. My phone number is on every press release it. It’s all over the internet. I don’t know. He probably has lots of people’s phone numbers. You know? So I don’t know. I don’t have any more comment other than that.”

And your name is on a conviction, fancy that lady.

4 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:36:18am

Birds of a feather.

5 Eagle  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:36:35am

"... against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

6 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:36:51am
Sullenger’s statement to Kansas City paper The Pitch ....

What's that aroma I smell?

7 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:37:28am

For supposedly moral people they (Operation Rescue) sure have a great capacity to lie about things in a blatant attempt to cover their collective asses.

8 Kragar  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:38:43am

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

For supposedly moral people they (Operation Rescue) sure have a great capacity to lie about things in a blatant attempt to cover their collective asses.

They are differently moraled.

9 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:39:06am

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

And your name is on a conviction, fancy that lady.

I would say they are proud to be Martyrs to Man's Laws to uphold God's, conveniently forgetting that they violate quite a number of both in the process.

10 MTF  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:39:26am

"I don’t have any more comment other than that."

She likely went on to say, under her breath, "until I have a lawyer".

11 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:39:31am

So Operation Rescue, an anti-abortion organization, employs ex-cons with convictions for violence against abortionists. They sure try hard to disassociate themselves from violence, don't they?

12 Tumulus11  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:40:21am
'No, he hasn’t called me recently,' Sullenger said. 'No.'

. He hasn't called since Sunday morning.

13 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:40:26am

Real piece of work this guy.

The Roeder/Rader name similarity is really bugging me. I keep reading it wrong. Too many whackos, I'm starting to mix them up now.

14 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:40:26am

My ex girlfriends number is in all the stalls in some of the best bars where I live. Not sure how that happened.
/actually they are dives

15 subsailor68  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:40:52am

She went on: “You know, he’s somebody who’s been around. My name is on the Internet. It’s on every press release. My phone number is on every press release it. It’s all over the internet. I don’t know. He probably has lots of people’s phone numbers. You know? So I don’t know. I don’t have any more comment other than that.”

Hey Cheryl. Guess what? If they check the guy's cell phone records, and calls of any duration to your number appear...well, like Lucy Ricardo, you'll have some 'splainin to do.

16 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:40:54am

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They are differently moraled.

Give me an honest lying Muslim any day then. At least their book tells them it is moral to lie.

/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?

17 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:41:00am

How many times can she say "know"?

18 zigaretten  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:41:04am

I thought bombers were all the rage these days. Bill Ayers anyone?
What's sauce for the goose...........

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:41:12am

re: #11 quickjustice

So Operation Rescue, an anti-abortion organization, employs ex-cons with convictions for violence against abortionists. They sure try hard to disassociate themselves from violence, don't they?

The end justifies the meanies.

20 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:42:42am

re: #17 MandyManners

How many times can she say "know"?

She sure doesn't have a clue about anything with all her "I don't know"s.

21 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:42:48am

I so want to see the feds tie this up into a neat little RICO indictment against Operation Rescue, Army of God and all the rest of their creepy pals.

22 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:42:53am

She's on his speed dial list
/

23 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:43:10am

The party's over for the anti-abortion extremists. FBI will be wiretapping and infiltrating these groups. There's probably going to be a lot more attention given to the militias now too.

24 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:43:16am

I wonder if any budding politicians were feted at fundraisers in Roeder's home?

25 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:45:30am

re: #24 JammieWearingFool

Man, that just gave me the weirdest flashback to that "mirror world" episode of Star Trek ...

/shakes head

26 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:45:50am

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

For supposedly moral people they (Operation Rescue) sure have a great capacity to lie about things in a blatant attempt to cover their collective asses.

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

27 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:46:13am

re: #25 CIA Reject

Man, that just gave me the weirdest flashback to that "mirror world" episode of Star Trek ...

/shakes head

Vitamin C, man. Lotsa Vitamin C, and those go away.

28 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:46:35am

Irony meter is exploding as I see that CSPAN ad with Bill Ayers' face next to this story.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:46:42am

Guys, quick OT question. I just got a hilariously awful e-mail about an upcoming anti-Israel event in SF. With graphics. Charles has probably already seen it, but where can I sent it to in case he hasn't?

I don't know if I can paste the graphics into the contact form. Will that work?

Thanks.

Interruption ended.

30 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:47:03am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

Most denominations don't have any members of Operation Rescue.

31 S'latch  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:47:08am

This fact looks very bad for Operation Rescue. If Cheryl Sullenger knew Mr. Roeder and what he was planning, she could put and end to Operation Rescue. I suspect that some phone records will be obtained.

32 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:47:17am

re: #22 Mr Spiffy

She's on his speed dial list
/

If so, she's really methed up.

/

33 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:48:28am

re: #32 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If so, she's really methed up.

/

What a crack pun.

34 subsailor68  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:48:47am

re: #32 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If so, she's really methed up.

/

Well, not really. I hear she's part of a crack team.

;-)

35 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:48:53am

re: #27 Guanxi88

Vitamin C, man. Lotsa Vitamin C, and those go away.

The do? Thanks!

/Wait a minute, how do I know that's not a flashback...

#$&*!

36 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:48:54am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Guys, quick OT question. I just got a hilariously awful e-mail about an upcoming anti-Israel event in SF. With graphics. Charles has probably already seen it, but where can I sent it to in case he hasn't?

I don't know if I can paste the graphics into the contact form. Will that work?

Thanks.

Interruption ended.

Try zombietime.

37 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:49:20am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

My biggest beef is the guy was killed in a church. A church. Then you have the self righteous zealots say, "Too bad he wasn't prepared to meet God." What, praytell, do they think the guy was doing in a church? This is Taliban in proportions. No matter how you live / believe, you will never be good enough or 'Christian' enough in their judgmental eyes.

38 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:49:32am

re: #30 Dianna

Most denominations don't have any members of Operation Rescue.

What do you mean by that. Operation Rescue have members, who come from many different Christian denominations. I don't understand your point.

39 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:49:39am

re: #24 JammieWearingFool

I wonder if any budding politicians were feted at fundraisers in Roeder's home?

Probably not but I wouldn't be surprised if the militia he bolonged to attend their local Tea Party.

40 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:49:49am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

A bit ironic you talking about excommunication/disfellowship. The other day I was reading Operation Save America's website where they are praising Roeder for being a Holy Warrior, and they called the church Tiller attended as being "an apostate church".

I will not provide a direct link to their vile website. If anyone really wants to read it for themselves they can do a search.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:49:51am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

I'm sure some people will. And they deserve praise.

42 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:50:25am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

I suspect that the murder will be discussed at many church services this coming Sunday. Hopefully most will talk about faith/bearing witness/being an example of the faith/etc. I'm sure some will use the incident to continue with the anti-abortion rhetoric. Most churches do not kick people out of the congregation, its just not how it works.

43 Bob Dillon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:50:27am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Search the net with (your) description of the graphic and then send him the link when you find it.

44 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:50:49am

re: #30 Dianna

Most denominations don't have any members of Operation Rescue.

True. The hardcore crazies tend to gravitate to small, nondenominational congregations that focus on antiabortion activities. Those churches have no interest in purging potentially violent individuals.

45 Rancher  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:50:59am

Nothing tarnishes a movement like violence, and what could be worse for a right to life movement than murder? Maybe this mad bomber is reformed, like the good Rev. Wright, but I doubt it. The whole organization does us no good what so ever.

46 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:51:00am

re: #37 Oh no...Sand People!

My biggest beef is the guy was killed in a church. A church. Then you have the self righteous zealots say, "Too bad he wasn't prepared to meet God." What, praytell, do they think the guy was doing in a church? This is Taliban in proportions. No matter how you live / believe, you will never be good enough or 'Christian' enough in their judgmental eyes.

At least one Operation Rescue group is calling the church Tiller attended as bing apostate, so killing him there was nothing bad.

47 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:51:35am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Probably not but I wouldn't be surprised if the militia he bolonged to attend their local Tea Party.

That's bologna, that is.

48 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:52:02am

re: #42 KansasMom

I suspect that the murder will be discussed at many church services this coming Sunday. Hopefully most will talk about faith/bearing witness/being an example of the faith/etc. I'm sure some will use the incident to continue with the anti-abortion rhetoric. Most churches do not kick people out of the congregation, its just not how it works.

Well, it did in the first century church. What happened?

49 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:52:06am

re: #18 zigaretten

I thought bombers were all the rage these days. Bill Ayers anyone?
What's sauce for the goose...........

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

50 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:52:10am

Oh, good heavens. Debbie Schlussel complained to Rush that he didn't credit her when he was talking about how the recruiting office attack isn't getting as much play as the Roeder/Tiller story...as if she's got some kind of exclusivity on that observation.

People have been mentioning that here all day.

51 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Probably not but I wouldn't be surprised if the militia he bolonged to attend their local Tea Party.

Enough, already. Your Unified Field Theory of Tea Parties is tiresome.

52 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:53:39am

re: #50 capitalist piglet

Oh, good heavens. Debbie Schlussel complained to Rush that he didn't credit her when he was talking about how the recruiting office attack isn't getting as much play as the Roeder/Tiller story...as if she's got some kind of exclusivity on that observation.

People have been mentioning that here all day.

The rest of the media isn't, though, so she does have a point. LGF is the oasis in the desert of the right wing blogosphere and FMSM.

53 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:54:17am

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

What do you mean by that. Operation Rescue have members, who come from many different Christian denominations. I don't understand your point.

You're asking for churches to do something the vast majority have no cause to do, and couldn't begin to know about.

I'm not a member of a church, and neither are you. Neither of us is able to insist churches do something.

54 Rexatosis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:54:44am

"Terrorists to the left of me, Terrorists to the right of me, stuck in the middle again." (with apologies to Steelers Wheels but it feels like the 70s all over again)

55 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:54:48am

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Well, it did in the first century church. What happened?

People got soft and "kind-hearted". Or just plain corrupt - I've seen it happen before.

56 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:11am

re: #52 FurryOldGuyJeans

The rest of the media isn't, though, so she does have a point. LGF is the oasis in the desert of the right wing blogosphere and FMSM.

My local paper didn't even have a two line mention of it.

57 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:12am

re: #49 Charles

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

5 posts in 4 years..Guess we'll have to wait till 2010 to find out..

58 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:21am

re: #51 doppelganglander

Sorry but there is going to be fallout from the associations that many conservatives are making these days.

59 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:23am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Gonna start blaming Climate Change on the Tea Parties now? Earthquakes?

You really get tiresome with your constant blathering about them EVILLLLLLL Tea Parties.

60 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:34am

re: #44 doppelganglander

True. The hardcore crazies tend to gravitate to small, nondenominational congregations that focus on antiabortion activities. Those churches have no interest in purging potentially violent individuals.

That last I cannot speak to. I do know that many nondenominational churches are odd, and frequently don't know who's in their congregation.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:46am

re: #55 thedopefishlives

People got soft and "kind-hearted". Or just plain corrupt - I've seen it happen before.

Churches still kick people out. Or ice them out. A good friend of mine came under serious pressure from her (ex) church because she wasn't sufficiently homophobic.

62 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:55:53am

I smell conspiracy charges.

I hope this reaches all the way to Terry.

63 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:56:14am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

No one is answer my question about disfellowshipping. Why is it barely practiced? I don't care if it's a whole denomination or small independent churches and Christian sects.

If these people who support this kind of craziness are "not really Christians," then get rid of them. Why would you want them?

The first century church got rid of bad influences.

64 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:56:19am

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Well, it did in the first century church. What happened?

Dunno. I'm a Unitarian.....we take the no-kicking-people-out thing very seriously, but we aren't exactly mainstream. Can't speak for other churches.

65 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:56:23am

re: #57 HoosierHoops

5 posts in 4 years..Guess we'll have to wait till 2010 to find out..

The future is promised to no one?

66 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:56:42am

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

Well, it did in the first century church. What happened?

The Catholic Church still practices excommunication, but it has to be pretty egregious to merit such action. Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowship people left and right. Some churches practice what Paul teaches (I forget which book): confront the sinner privately and encourage repentance; if that doesn't work, take it before the congregation. At that point, most people will slink away in embarrassment, but I've heard of lawsuits by former members against churches that have tried to kick them out. That's also unBiblical, since scripture calls for church disputes to be decided within the church.

67 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:11am

re: #35 CIA Reject

The do? Thanks!

/Wait a minute, how do I know that's not a flashback...

#$&*!

yes, it's all flashbacks right now. Weimar Germany meets late Ford/Early Carter.

Enjoy.

68 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:25am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

The party's over for the anti-abortion extremists. FBI will be wiretapping and infiltrating these groups. There's probably going to be a lot more attention given to the militias now too.

Good.

69 JammieWearingFool  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:27am

re: #50 capitalist piglet

Oh, good heavens. Debbie Schlussel complained to Rush that he didn't credit her when he was talking about how the recruiting office attack isn't getting as much play as the Roeder/Tiller story...as if she's got some kind of exclusivity on that observation.

People have been mentioning that here all day.

He seemed rather dismissive of her as he crumpled up the email. Like she's the first one on the story. Good grief.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:29am

OK, I have to get some stuff done. Be well, all.

71 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:39am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Probably not but I wouldn't be surprised if the militia he bolonged to attend their local Tea Party.

*sigh*.

Do you automatically assume any bald men you meet are stormfronters, too?

Maybe said "militia" members did, maybe they didn't, but can we at least look for proof before hauling out that tar-brush?

72 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:39am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Sorry but there is going to be fallout from the associations that many conservatives are making these days.

And you seem unable or unwilling to distinguish conservatives from crackpots. Let's concentrate on tying this individual to his actual associates, not the ones you imagine for him, shall we?

73 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:46am

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

Churches still kick people out. Or ice them out. A good friend of mine came under serious pressure from her (ex) church because she wasn't sufficiently homophobic.

What I meant is that the practice isn't as rigorous and widespread as it used to be, because the clergy by and large started becoming more liberal and "inclusive". Which isn't all a bad thing, because churches are supposed to be places for the sinners to find God as well as for the devout to practice their faith, but lines still need to be drawn. There needs to be some way for the Christian community to stand up and say, "No, you aren't welcome here anymore, not in our name."

74 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:47am

re: #66 doppelganglander

The Catholic Church still practices excommunication, but it has to be pretty egregious to merit such action. Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowship people left and right. Some churches practice what Paul teaches (I forget which book): confront the sinner privately and encourage repentance; if that doesn't work, take it before the congregation. At that point, most people will slink away in embarrassment, but I've heard of lawsuits by former members against churches that have tried to kick them out. That's also unBiblical, since scripture calls for church disputes to be decided within the church.


True, most people will just switch to a church that better fits their personal beliefs.

75 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:57:59am

re: #53 Dianna

You're asking for churches to do something the vast majority have no cause to do, and couldn't begin to know about.

I'm not a member of a church, and neither are you. Neither of us is able to insist churches do something.

I'm not insisting, I'm just asking why isn't disfellowshipping an option. Get rid of all those "not a Christian's."

76 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:58:00am

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

No one is answer my question about disfellowshipping. Why is it barely practiced?

Well, if we do that, you get disfellowshipping, then datfellowshipping, and before you know it, the USPS can't make a profit anymore.

77 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:58:10am

re: #56 Pvt Bin Jammin

My local paper didn't even have a two line mention of it.

My local paper (Tacoma News Tribune) has only one article, the abortion doctor murder, covering 1/3 of the front page and additional print inside. The recruiting station murder is a single sentence after-thought near the end of the main story.

78 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:58:22am

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

[Link: www.gingiedmonds.com...]

79 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:58:24am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Sorry but there is going to be fallout from the associations that many conservatives are making these days.

Indeed, but not all are going to be justified. I'm going to insist on proof.

80 JohnnyReb  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:58:45am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Probably not but I wouldn't be surprised if the militia he bolonged to attend their local Tea Party.

Seriously tacky post.

81 JohnnyReb  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:59:58am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Sorry but there is going to be fallout from the associations that many conservatives are making these days.

There is only going to be fallout in your mind.

82 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:04am

So, OR has a policy advisor who, at the very least, one time advocated violence against Doctors strongly enough to plan something similar herself.

If we see a few more 'policy advisors' for OR with pasts like this come up, it's going to get awfully hard for me to believe their attempts claim they don't advocate such acts.

83 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:06am

re: #67 Guanxi88

yes, it's all flashbacks right now. Weimar Germany meets late Ford/Early Carter.

Enjoy.

Yeah, with a side of "X Files" and the "DaVinci Code" for dessert!

84 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:11am

re: #66 doppelganglander

The Catholic Church still practices excommunication, but it has to be pretty egregious to merit such action. Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowship people left and right. Some churches practice what Paul teaches (I forget which book): confront the sinner privately and encourage repentance; if that doesn't work, take it before the congregation. At that point, most people will slink away in embarrassment, but I've heard of lawsuits by former members against churches that have tried to kick them out. That's also unBiblical, since scripture calls for church disputes to be decided within the church.

My questions were obviously rhetorical, since I mentioned that some sects do practice excommunication and disfellowshipping (and shunning). It's interesting to me that most mainstream sects have let that little organizational process go by the wayside. I wonder why? (Rhetorical again)

85 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:23am

re: #60 Dianna

That last I cannot speak to. I do know that many nondenominational churches are odd, and frequently don't know who's in their congregation.

It depends. I've belonged to several nondenominational churches, all of which were small to medium sized, where everyone knew each other. The megachurches make a big effort to personalize the experience by encouraging people to join small groups (Bible studies and such), but it would certainly be easier to hide in the crowd.

86 bloodnok  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:34am

re: #59 FurryOldGuyJeans

Gonna start blaming Climate Change on the Tea Parties now? Earthquakes?

You really get tiresome with your constant blathering about them EVILLLLLLL Tea Parties.

Ignore it, then. For every 1 post he makes about it there are about 8 complaining. And we wonder why threads get derailed. Just ignore it if you don't like it.

87 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:47am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

I'm not insisting, I'm just asking why isn't disfellowshipping an option. Get rid of all those "not a Christian's."

Because that assumes that churches - particularly the smaller nondenominational ones - know their membership (many don't; they make a big deal of "everyone's welcome!") and what their other affiliations are.

If pastors want to do that, it's admirable. But unless you're a member of a church, your question makes me tired. You're acting as if there's a monolithic bloc, and as if "disfellowshipping" were a common thing.

88 P. Aaron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:56am

However...Bill Ayers wouldn't have any influence over anything Obama believes or does.

Close associations are only reserved for Conservatives and anti-Abortion right wingers.

89 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:00:58am

re: #46 FurryOldGuyJeans

At least one Operation Rescue group is calling the church Tiller attended as bing apostate, so killing him there was nothing bad.

I'll be concise:

Fuck these assholes and their tinpot religion. Time for them to render unto Caesar.

90 itellu3times  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:01:01am

Where's Johnny Cochran when someone really needs him?

91 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:01:58am

re: #78 Charles

Truly revolting.

92 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:02:16am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

The party's over for the anti-abortion extremists. FBI will be wiretapping and infiltrating these groups. There's probably going to be a lot more attention given to the militias now too.

The upshot of this whole mess is that a innocent, pro lifer carrying a sign at a rally or outside a clinic will have to be watched now out of a abundance of caution. The murder did more harm to his cause then he could have imagined.
I'm pro choice, but also respect the pro lifers right to protest, and this just makes it harder.

93 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:02:19am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

I'm not insisting, I'm just asking why isn't disfellowshipping an option. Get rid of all those "not a Christian's."

I'm not a member of a church, although I was baptized Episcopalian as a kid, but I don't think that you join a church like a gym - contracts, membership dues, rules of conduct, etc. People I know go to a church, try it and look for another if they are not happy. I don't think a lot of church rolls keep track of parishoners.

94 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:02:25am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).
. . .

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

Well . . .
then, are you saying that all the Christians here who have denounced that action are liars?

95 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:02:43am

re: #17 MandyManners

How many times can she say "know"?

Shades of caroline kennedy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YF_pN8pWvg

96 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:03:20am

re: #90 itellu3times

Where's Johnny Cochran when someone really needs him?

He's dead, Jim.

97 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:03:32am

re: #78 Charles

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

[Link: www.gingiedmonds.com...]

Disgusting, all the way to the very end of that.

98 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:03:34am

re: #87 Dianna

Because that assumes that churches - particularly the smaller nondenominational ones - know their membership (many don't; they make a big deal of "everyone's welcome!") and what their other affiliations are.

If pastors want to do that, it's admirable. But unless you're a member of a church, your question makes me tired. You're acting as if there's a monolithic bloc, and as if "disfellowshipping" were a common thing.

My point is it is NOT common, but maybe it should be. The Greek scriptures sets up all the necessary processes for keeping the flock clean, including members reporting actions to the elders and elders taking the lead in counseling and then disfellowshipping if needed.

I don't have to belong to a church to know what is practiced in different sects and what is not, and know what is in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

99 Dan G.  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:04:06am

re: #88 P. Aaron

Quit trying to divert away from this important topic. Ayers' evil doesn't equilibrize this evil.

100 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:04:08am

re: #78 Charles

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

[Link: www.gingiedmonds.com...]

And similar heated rhetoric was floated trying to "rescue" Terri Schiavo. Weren't Operation Rescue people latching onto her like leeches as well?

101 subsailor68  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:04:11am

re: #78 Charles

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

[Link: www.gingiedmonds.com...]

That's absolutely disgusting stuff, Charles. Right on - ugly and hateful don't even cover this woman. Just one (I wouldn't dream of quoting anything else in her insane rant) example:

I mean, I personally would not shoot an abortionist, but who am I to impose my morality on someone else?

Lady, you don't have any morality.

102 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:04:40am

What was the name of the militia he belonged to? We can google and check since you guys find it so outrageous.

103 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:04:59am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

I want to know why Christians don't clean house? A few of the smaller "sects" practice excommunication (sometime called disfellowshipping).

I wonder, this coming Sunday, who many pastors and ministers and priests will get up on the pulpit and say something like this...

"If you support Operation Rescue, or agree with Randall Terry, then there is a problem with your walk, your faith, your confession, your dedication to Christ."

It's similar to they same question we ask of moderate Muslims, and waiting and waiting for the condemnations. They are never forthcoming.

Why? The Hebrew and Greek scriptures all cover the concept of removing bad influences from among the flock. It's not like it's a non-biblical idea, it's extremely biblical, yet never practiced.

When I hear "well, they are not really Christian," then why don't I hear a follow up to that... "and we do not want them among us?"

Until I see that sort of housekeeping practiced in the Christian community, it's hard for me to take any of the outrage rhetoric seriously.

I think you have to acknowledge that support for Roeder is far from universal in the Christian community. Christians here want no part of people like this and have been most vocal about it.

Where are you seeing this, "well, they are not really Christian" meme, in relationship to this story? I haven't noticed that being a predominant theme among Christians yet (though I concede that I haven't read a bunch of other websites since this happened). I've mostly seen it from people using it as some sort of argument against them.

What I haveseen on other sites is far worse - a cheering section. The sort of denial you're describing, not so much.

(Not trying to be snarky, Walter...it just seems like there's some shadowboxing going on, but I welcome some evidence to the contrary if you've got it.)

104 flyovercountry  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:05:09am

I will say this about our domestic terrorists. They are so incredibly inept. Caught running away, nobody racing to take credit, and by comparison, extremely stupid. The foreign kind, would have died in the attack with an near immediate claim of responsibility, followed by denials of the American left including a truth movement to be looking for the, "real perps." Not these bozos, these bozos have no actual stomach for consequences. Let this bimbo do another stint in the pen as an accessory to Murder. Thank goodness our domestic terrorists are a group of spoiled idiots. Otherwise, we would be in serious trouble.

105 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:05:42am

re: #86 bloodnok

Ignore it, then. For every 1 post he makes about it there are about 8 complaining. And we wonder why threads get derailed. Just ignore it if you don't like it.

I would rather register my disgust than to implicitly be accused of accepting his bullshit.

106 gtrs  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:05:45am

why am i NOT surprised

107 Pvt Bin Jammin  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:03am

re: #77 FurryOldGuyJeans

My local paper (Tacoma News Tribune) has only one article, the abortion doctor murder, covering 1/3 of the front page and additional print inside. The recruiting station murder is a single sentence after-thought near the end of the main story.

That's pitiful. There doesn't seem to be much about it on the internet, either.

108 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:23am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

What was the name of the militia he belonged to? We can google and check since you guys find it so outrageous.

Knock yourself out. As I understand it, he was expelled from the militia. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sure you'll correct me.

109 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:25am

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

My point is it is NOT common, but maybe it should be. The Greek scriptures sets up all the necessary processes for keeping the flock clean, including members reporting actions to the elders and elders taking the lead in counseling and then disfellowshipping if needed.

Hmm, these Greek scriptures were later taken up by East Germany, replace Elders with Stasi and reporting members with informants.

110 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:06:31am

re: #94 reine.de.tout

Well . . .
then, are you saying that all the Christians here who have denounced that action are liars?

No, I am saying simply that it is biblical for a congregation to keep a clean house. It is biblical to deny congregants access to the community. I am just wondering if congregations should be keeping better tabs on their congregants.

It was done in the first century church.

112 drcordell  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:07:08am

re: #63 Walter L. Newton
If these people who support this kind of craziness are "not really Christians," then get rid of them. Why would you want them?


Often it's not as easy as simply "kicking them out." Most major denominations have some sort of council that would have to rule on the issue before they "excommunicate" anyone. My mother is Presbyterian and I know the issue of deciding the church's official stance on homosexuality is causing a huge schism within the "synod" (the Presbyterian council that sets doctrine).

I would imagine abortion is just as much of a hot-button issue as gay rights within most churches. Even if most church members don't condone anti-abortion terrorism, creating a litmus test to determine who to throw out, and then actually gaining traction to throw out violently pro-life members would be pretty difficult.

113 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:07:19am

re: #107 Pvt Bin Jammin

That's pitiful. There doesn't seem to be much about it on the internet, either.

So really even in death there is no equality. Being a murdered abortion doctor is more "equal" than a murdered soldier.

114 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:07:26am

re: #52 FurryOldGuyJeans

The rest of the media isn't, though, so she does have a point. LGF is the oasis in the desert of the right wing blogosphere and FMSM.

I'm sorry, Furry - her point seems to be that as soon as something crosses her mind and she uploads it, she deserves credit for it if someone else happens to have observed the same thing. I think that's ridiculous, and I've seen her do it before.

115 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:07:37am

re: #78 Charles

Classic example of an unrealized hypocritical view. Murder to stop murder.

116 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:07:48am

re: #81 JohnnyReb

There is only going to be fallout in your mind.

Don't dismiss it entirely, KT's got a point even if he is belaboring it. This is the sort of thing that the MSM just love to exploit to discredit the right. Kind of the way that they trot out Pat Buchanan for the 'conservative' perspective.

117 cosmo  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:07:49am

re: #42 KansasMom

I suspect that the murder will be discussed at many church services this coming Sunday. Hopefully most will talk about faith/bearing witness/being an example of the faith/etc. I'm sure some will use the incident to continue with the anti-abortion rhetoric. Most churches do not kick people out of the congregation, its just not how it works.

Christians churches whose true focus is not Christ, typically do not practice any sort of excommunication/disfellowshipping. The (poor) analogy would be that of a retail establishment telling a paying customer that they cannot purchase merchandise anymore due to a store policy violation.

Members of the congregation are the golden goose that provides the eggs upon which the church's founders rely for sustenance--hence, telling them to go elsewhere to fill the collection plate is akin religio-financial suicide.

It is as horrible to me that someone who would commit an act of murder such as this would assume that he/she is doing so with the blessing of the Almighty. I haven't had a Vulcan mind-meld with God, but I suspect he condemns this sort of behavior. The charlatan pseudo-clerics who profess a God who condones this are simply dead wrong.

"Some things are and some things are not, no matter how you want them to be."

118 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:07:58am

re: #104 flyovercountry

I will say this about our domestic terrorists. They are so incredibly inept. Caught running away, nobody racing to take credit, and by comparison, extremely stupid. The foreign kind, would have died in the attack with an near immediate claim of responsibility, followed by denials of the American left including a truth movement to be looking for the, "real perps." Not these bozos, these bozos have no actual stomach for consequences. Let this bimbo do another stint in the pen as an accessory to Murder. Thank goodness our domestic terrorists are a group of spoiled idiots. Otherwise, we would be in serious trouble.

Inept or not, that shit doesn't belong here.

119 zigaretten  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:08:25am

re: #49 Charles

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

It means that if I can discount the connections between our beloved President and a known bomber then I can ignore any connections between these two.

Actually, this strikes me as a complete non-story. This guy killed an abortionist. It's no surprise that he would have had contacts with any number of pro-life groups.

Just like this other guy, the Muslim convert who killed the soldier. He has no doubt had contact with any number of Muslims. In fact, he traveled to Yemen. That doesn't mean there was some conspiracy or that Yemen is really responsible for his actions.

Doesn't mean anything, really.

120 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:08:28am

re: #95 rightside

Shades of caroline kennedy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YF_pN8pWvg

Sullenger sounds much less sincere.

121 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:08:31am

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

No, I am saying simply that it is biblical for a congregation to keep a clean house. It is biblical to deny congregants access to the community. I am just wondering if congregations should be keeping better tabs on their congregants.

It was done in the first century church.

You mean like this?

122 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:08:35am

re: #96 MandyManners

He's dead, Jim.

OMG! LOL! Your post completely chanelled McCoy's voice in my head!

123 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:08:49am

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

My point is it is NOT common, but maybe it should be. The Greek scriptures sets up all the necessary processes for keeping the flock clean, including members reporting actions to the elders and elders taking the lead in counseling and then disfellowshipping if needed.

I don't have to belong to a church to know what is practiced in different sects and what is not, and know what is in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

No, you don't. But you are an outsider telling people inside what they should do.

124 doubter4444  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:08:49am

re: #32 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If so, she's really methed up.

/

What a crack pun.


Ho Ho Ho

125 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:23am

re: #114 capitalist piglet

I'm sorry, Furry - her point seems to be that as soon as something crosses her mind and she uploads it, she deserves credit for it if someone else happens to have observed the same thing. I think that's ridiculous, and I've seen her do it before.

That I don't agree with, her wanting credit, but her main hypothesis is with merit because the FMSM is ignoring one murdered person and raising to sainthood another.

126 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:27am

re: #119 zigaretten

Your critical thinking skills need work.

127 MTF  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:28am

re: #49 Charles

A clumsy attempt to remind the left that celebrating one terrorist while condemning others makes no sense. At least I'd like to think that's what he meant. Palin made the same point far more artfully in her statement yesterday, and went on to get to the crux of the bisquit:

"Whatever titles we give these murderers, both deserve our attention. Violence like that is no way to solve a political dispute nor a religious one. And the fanatics on all sides do great disservice when they confuse dissension with rage and death."

128 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:33am

re: #113 FurryOldGuyJeans

So really even in death there is no equality. Being a murdered abortion doctor is more "equal" than a murdered soldier.

Apparently so- in the eyes of the media at least.

129 gtrs  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:41am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton
follow the money; can they "afford" to lose any?

130 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:47am

re: #50 capitalist piglet

the Roeder/Tiller story

I had not read it referred to in that way before....and it's gardening season....

131 Land Shark  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:09:57am

Great, a senior policy advisor for Operation Recue is a convicted terrorist. See why Pro-Life leaders have to be aware of what they say and what the consequences can be? Combined with Randall's statement, Operation Rescue doesn't look too good right now in my opinion.

132 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:10:09am

re: #115 Yashmak

Classic example of an unrealized hypocritical view. Murder to stop murder.

heh

133 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:10:30am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

What was the name of the militia he belonged to? We can google and check since you guys find it so outrageous.

It's on the front-page post. Go look.

and I don't find it outrageous, I find it tiresome.

134 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:10:51am

re: #120 MandyManners

It will become clear quickly, upon examining phone records, whether she's lying. I am betting there are many such calls/insert form of communication here.

135 P. Aaron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:10:52am

As Reverend Wright whistles past the Right Wing Graveyard.

136 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:11:20am

re: #103 capitalist piglet

I think you have to acknowledge that support for Roeder is far from universal in the Christian community. Christians here want no part of people like this and have been most vocal about it.

Where are you seeing this, "well, they are not really Christian" meme, in relationship to this story? I haven't noticed that being a predominant theme among Christians yet (though I concede that I haven't read a bunch of other websites since this happened). I've mostly seen it from people using it as some sort of argument against them.

What I haveseen on other sites is far worse - a cheering section. The sort of denial you're describing, not so much.

(Not trying to be snarky, Walter...it just seems like there's some shadowboxing going on, but I welcome some evidence to the contrary if you've got it.)

Well of course I'm not talking about Lizards here. But those blogs, where we see positive remarks about the killing, many of those commenters belong to churches or something. There is a connection of groups after group that support Operation Rescue. "Soldiers of Christ for this, Soldiers of the Almighty for that..." My point is, people who support, donate, belong, actively help these group, the "christians" that have left terrible messages on blogs, they all worship somewhere.

The greek scriptures give examples of how to manage those kind of negative elements in a congregation. But modern churches, sects, and flavors of Christianity rarely follow any of those guidelines.

Maybe they should. That's my point.

137 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:11:29am

re: #135 P. Aaron

Ironic, no?

138 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:11:58am

re: #78 Charles

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

" Being charged with 19 misdemeanors he got off scott-free through corrupt political ties and professional dishonesty. Again, had justice been served in that courtroom, Tiller would be alive today and serving a sentence behind bars. "

Translation : The jury better agree with us and find you guilty, or we'll kill you later, and it's their fault.

139 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:14am

re: #112 drcordell

If these people who support this kind of craziness are "not really Christians," then get rid of them. Why would you want them?


Often it's not as easy as simply "kicking them out." Most major denominations have some sort of council that would have to rule on the issue before they "excommunicate" anyone. My mother is Presbyterian and I know the issue of deciding the church's official stance on homosexuality is causing a huge schism within the "synod" (the Presbyterian council that sets doctrine).

I would imagine abortion is just as much of a hot-button issue as gay rights within most churches. Even if most church members don't condone anti-abortion terrorism, creating a litmus test to determine who to throw out, and then actually gaining traction to throw out violently pro-life members would be pretty difficult.

Greek scriptures give you the examples on how to rule on these sort of issues.

140 iceweasel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:14am

re: #104 flyovercountry

I will say this about our domestic terrorists. They are so incredibly inept.

if only you were right. The Unibomber and Timothy McVeigh were domestic terrorists. So were Paul Hill and Eric Rudolph.

141 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:37am

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Roeder's ex-wife, Lindsey Roeder, said her husband became obsessed with anti-government theories and abortion in the early '90s and that it poisoned their 10-year marriage. The couple had one son and Lindsey Roeder told reporters Monday she insisted on custody because she feared for the child's safety.

SNIP

Smart woman.

142 JamesWI  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:44am

re: #100 FurryOldGuyJeans

And similar heated rhetoric was floated trying to "rescue" Terri Schiavo. Weren't Operation Rescue people latching onto her like leeches as well?

Randall Terry, from the disgusting video last night, was the parents' spokesman.

143 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:12:53am

re: #119 zigaretten

It means that if I can discount the connections between our beloved President and a known bomber then I can ignore any connections between these two.

I doubt you ignored the connections between our President, and the bomber in question (not that it has anything to do with this). . .but I have no way of knowing of course. My question is, do you feel you SHOULD ignore the possible connection between this organization and the murder of a doctor? Is it right to ignore such a connection, if it might exist? I imagine you didn't think so about the connection between Obama and Ayers. . .so why would you feel so uninterested in this case?

Just like this other guy, the Muslim convert who killed the soldier. He has no doubt had contact with any number of Muslims. In fact, he traveled to Yemen. That doesn't mean there was some conspiracy or that Yemen is really responsible for his actions.

If there was evidence (even if only circumstantial) of such a connection or conspiracy, shouldn't it be looked into?

144 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:04am

re: #133 Dianna

It's on the front-page post. Go look.

and I don't find it outrageous, I find it tiresome.

The Killgore Trout that cried "Tea Party".

145 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:35am

re: #135 P. Aaron

As Reverend Wright whistles past the Right Wing Graveyard.

re: #137 rightside

Ironic, no?

Do you mean since Obama's getting a pass for Wright, then Operation Rescue should get a pass from Roeder?

If not, what do you mean?

146 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:36am

re: #129 gtrs

follow the money; can they "afford" to lose any?

Ding, ding, ding... give that man a cigar.

147 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:46am

re: #78 Charles

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

[Link: www.gingiedmonds.com...]

Ugly hateful commentary is not just common to the right, but has just as cozy a home on the left. Case in point: The Playboy website entitled, "Conservative women we'd like to hate-f*ck." Hate is not left/right exclusive.

148 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:50am

Say what you will about Sullenger, she did a fantastic job landing that crippled airplane safely in the Hudson.

//

150 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:54am

re: #142 JamesWI

Randall Terry, from the disgusting video last night, was the parents' spokesman.

No wonder I found the man's name so familiar, and creepy.

151 S'latch  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:13:59am

re: #119 zigaretten

It isn't really a non-story. The story is developing. If Operation Rescue knew what Scott Roeder was up to, that organization is in deep legal trouble.

The fact that Cheryl Sullenger was convicted in 1988 of conspiring to bomb a California abortion clinic is actually not relevant to that legal question.

152 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:14:14am

re: #145 wrenchwench

No, both should be front page items.

153 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:14:32am

re: #104 flyovercountry

I will say this about our domestic terrorists. They are so incredibly inept. Caught running away, nobody racing to take credit, and by comparison, extremely stupid. The foreign kind, would have died in the attack with an near immediate claim of responsibility, followed by denials of the American left including a truth movement to be looking for the, "real perps." Not these bozos, these bozos have no actual stomach for consequences. Let this bimbo do another stint in the pen as an accessory to Murder. Thank goodness our domestic terrorists are a group of spoiled idiots. Otherwise, we would be in serious trouble.

Foreign terrorists are no less inept. If I recall, with the first WTC bombing, at least one of the terrorists was caught because he rented the truck using his own name. He probably had no clue that US law enforcment would be able to identify the bits of truck and thus the rental company. The second WTC bombers, were lucky not to get caught considering some of their behaviors at the flight school.

154 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:14:49am

re: #115 Yashmak

Classic example of an unrealized hypocritical view. Murder to stop murder.

Yet rationalized in a way that makes it acceptable to some. Kill one doctor and prevent many abortions. Almost as bad as the rationalization that they are preventing the death of innocents (Babies) by killing the guilty (Adults that are capable of knowing better). I've heard both of those arguments as justification for such things through the years.

155 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:14:55am

re: #111 Killgore Trout

"The anti-tax stuff came first, and then it grew and grew. He became very antiabortion," she told the Associated Press. "That's all he cared about is antiabortion. 'The church is this. God is this. Yadda yadda.' "

This is not an outrageous and impossible accusation.

Hello? As I read that, he moved from the anti-tax stuff years ago onto the anti-abortion groups. And the "anti-tax" groups he was part of are not the same thing as those of us who are very, very worried by TARP and the further insane expansion of the budget.

Do you really think that I would have anything to do with that kind of ideology? That most of us would?

156 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:15:04am

re: #152 rightside

No, both should be front page items.

I am listening to the 4th hour of Rush since yesterday, and he has yet to even mention it.

157 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:15:07am

re: #125 FurryOldGuyJeans

That I don't agree with, her wanting credit, but her main hypothesis is with merit because the FMSM is ignoring one murdered person and raising to sainthood another.

My post was about her wanting credit, and only about her wanting credit. I know the premise had merit - but I'm sure she's not the only person who thought of it, since many of us did, too. She seems to think she can copyright an idea as soon as it occurs to her. Whining to Rush for not giving her credit just makes her look like an idiot.

158 Eagle  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:15:24am

re: #78 Charles

Gawd Charles, how do you find these sites?

This excerpt says it all:

There is no doubt that Tiller deserved to be executed for his crimes. I just would have preferred a state sanctioned lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, electric chair, good old fashioned stoning, what have you.

Judge - check.
Jury - check.
Executioner - check.

159 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:15:59am

re: #153 Flyers1974

If I recall, with the first WTC bombing, at least one of the terrorists was caught because he rented the truck using his own name.

You left out the best part; after the bombing, he went back to the rental agency, claimed the vehicle had been stolen, and tried to get his deposit back.

(Really.)

160 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:16:16am

re: #154 CyanSnowHawk

Yet rationalized in a way that makes it acceptable to some. Kill one doctor and prevent many abortions. Almost as bad as the rationalization that they are preventing the death of innocents (Babies) by killing the guilty (Adults that are capable of knowing better). I've heard both of those arguments as justification for such things through the years.

Exactly.

161 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:16:16am

re: #152 rightside

No, both should be front page items.

Rev. Wright should still be a front page item, or should have been before the election?

162 iceweasel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #138 avanti

" Being charged with 19 misdemeanors he got off scott-free through corrupt political ties and professional dishonesty. Again, had justice been served in that courtroom, Tiller would be alive today and serving a sentence behind bars. "

Translation : The jury better agree with us and find you guilty, or we'll kill you later, and it's their fault.

And a further translation: We'll be the only ones to decide what justice really is, not the American system and the rule of law.

163 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:17:12am

re: #162 iceweasel

And a further translation: We'll be the only ones to decide what justice really is, not the American system and the rule of law.

Yes, people who just KNOW they are right can be a problem.

164 badger1970  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:17:16am

It'll be bad if she was the one that pushed him to pulled the trigger.

As for churches kicking members out, if I couldn't live up to the church's teachers and continued to live the way I do, I wouldn't feel comfortable going to church each and every Sunday. Which by the way, is currently the boat I find myself in.

In reality, how many churches would kick out big collection plate donors?

165 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:17:28am

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

I try to listen, but miss entire hours of him. He hasn't mentioned the abortionist or GI killer has he? I haven't been able to keep up. He should talk about both.

166 iceweasel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:17:36am

re: #159 Occasional Reader

You left out the best part; after the bombing, he went back to the rental agency, claimed the vehicle had been stolen, and tried to get his deposit back.

(Really.)

That's right, I remember that.

167 fish  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:17:37am

Just out of curiosity, does any one else feel there is no difference between Ayers and Sullenger other than the particular "Cause" they have decided to kill for?

Terrorists are terrorists whether they are trying to end abortion, global warming or non-Muslim religions.

168 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:17:57am

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Go talk to them, and stop hectoring the rest of us!

169 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:31am

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

Ding, ding, ding... give that man a cigar.

That may be true in some cases, but I think it's mostly that it would be simply impractical to dedicate limited resources to outing people who might sympathize with this man.

I would guess that the vast majority of pastors and priests in America will have some very harsh words for this killer on Sunday.

Maybe we ought to give them a chance.

170 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:32am

re: #161 wrenchwench

I agree 100% It's outrageous our "press" covered for wright, ayers, alinsky, etc.

171 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:34am

re: #167 fish

Just out of curiosity, does any one else feel there is no difference between Ayers and Sullenger other than the particular "Cause" they have decided to kill for?

Terrorists are terrorists whether they are trying to end abortion, global warming or non-Muslim religions.

Of course there is a difference.

She was convicted.

He was not.

172 flyovercountry  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:37am

Re: #118 MrSilverDragon


Inept or not, that shit doesn't belong here.

You've missed the point. I don't belive in terrorism either. I do believe in the psychology of law enforcement, and even defense. Our home grown terrorists are a different breed. Their actions, while reprehensible do not show the same level of fanaticism. for example, The murderer was caught trying to escape. Had he been of the Islamic variety, he would have most likely martyred himself. Our accomplis tried to hide her connection. Islamic groups would be lining up to take credit, whether or not they had anything to do with it. Knowing your enemy allows you to fight them more effectively. This is my point.

173 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:54am

These pro-life fundie whackos are really disgusting, the way they are so quick to judge others and impose their own beliefs on people who disagree with them.
Kind of reminds me of another religious whacko with some crazy ideas, I think his name was Rev. Jeremiah Wright...

174 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:18:55am

Scott Roeder has done more damage to Christianity than anyone since Judas.

175 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:19:07am

re: #159 Occasional Reader

You left out the best part; after the bombing, he went back to the rental agency, claimed the vehicle had been stolen, and tried to get his deposit back.

(Really.)

They don't understand American culture or Americans and worse for them, they don't know they don't understand.

176 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:19:35am

re: #144 FurryOldGuyJeans

The Killgore Trout that cried "Tea Party".

He could easily be right. He could easily be wrong. I get tired of his instant drawing of that card, before he brings out any evidence.

177 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:21am

re: #174 zombie

Scott Roeder has done more damage to Christianity than anyone since Judas.

Hm... tall order there. What about, say, Torquemada?

178 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:27am

re: #165 rightside

I try to listen, but miss entire hours of him. He hasn't mentioned the abortionist or GI killer has he? I haven't been able to keep up. He should talk about both.

I can't stand him, but I was curious what he was going to say. Well, nothing yet. THree hours yesterday and he's into his 1st hour today. I don't know. Considering his wide appeal to a lot of conservatives, Rush's opinion on this, especially if he outright condemned it, would go a long way to being very helpful.

179 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:27am

Ok, there's nothing wrong with checking.....

Years earlier, Mr. Roeder belonged to a Kansas group known as the Patriot Movement, a citizens’ militia which, according to a fellow member, Morris Wilson, 70, aimed to “kick Uncle Sam in the shins” by bucking rules like mounting license plates on cars. “He didn’t like taxation and overregulation,” Mr. Wilson recalled, adding that Mr. Roeder had outspoken views against abortion.

Google Search

Most references appear to be coincidental usage of language. There's a few suspect things but nothing serious enough to continue. A lot of people here spend a lot of time and energy trying to prevent me from looking into this stuff.

180 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:29am

re: #174 zombie

Scott Roeder has done more damage to Christianity than anyone since Judas.

Well maybe, but i guess one could make the argument that with out Judas, there would not have been a martyred Jesus and thus no Christianity?

181 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:41am

re: #176 Dianna

28,000 posts. Wow.

182 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:20:56am

re: #168 Dianna

Go talk to them, and stop hectoring the rest of us!

Er, no.

183 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:21:08am

re: #149 MandyManners

Good find.

We saw it yesterday, though.

184 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:21:15am

re: #149 MandyManners

Good find.

When I mentioned it yesterday people got angry. Go figure.

185 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:21:32am

re: #181 rightside

28,000 posts. Wow.

Really? Huh. I didn't realize I'd been that talkative.

186 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:21:35am

re: #174 zombie

Scott Roeder has done more damage to Christianity than anyone since Judas.

At first glance agree with you, but then again the fact is that there wouldn't be any Christianity were it not for Judas, so maybe not...

187 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:21:41am

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

I agree, both should be addressed by him.

/he's such a lovable little fuzzball.

188 badger1970  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:22:21am

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Which means he was an angry individual that needed to find something to rally against to find his self-worth. As for him thinking that by murdering Tiller at church on a Sunday would somehow stop the abortions is somewhat maniacal.

189 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:22:45am

re: #184 Killgore Trout

When I mentioned it yesterday people got angry. Go figure.

I didn't. It was interesting information. Now, you appear to be insisting that the "anti-tax" groups of a decade ago are identical with those of us who object to current policy.

That, I have a problem with.

190 iceweasel  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:22:48am

re: #163 OldLineTexan

Yes, people who just KNOW they are right can be a problem.

Deciding to start killing people for doing things that are legal is to take up war against the US government and the US system of laws.

191 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:00am

re: #180 Nevergiveup

GMTA!

192 drcordell  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:03am

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

Using "greek scriptures" sounds great as a post on a comments thread, but in practicality doesn't make much sense. As I mentioned earlier, excommunicating someone from a religious denomination is going to boil down to that church's internal politics. Greek scriptures or not, there has to be political will to forcibly remove people with radical anti-abortion views.

Unfortunately, it's just like any other issue we face in this nation today. It's not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about politics.

193 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:19am

re: #172 flyovercountry

Re: #118 MrSilverDragon


Inept or not, that shit doesn't belong here.

You've missed the point. I don't belive in terrorism either. I do believe in the psychology of law enforcement, and even defense. Our home grown terrorists are a different breed. Their actions, while reprehensible do not show the same level of fanaticism. for example, The murderer was caught trying to escape. Had he been of the Islamic variety, he would have most likely martyred himself. Our accomplis tried to hide her connection. Islamic groups would be lining up to take credit, whether or not they had anything to do with it. Knowing your enemy allows you to fight them more effectively. This is my point.

I understood the point. I'm stating my view on the matter.

194 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:21am

re: #182 Walter L. Newton

Er, no.

You haven't said anything new since the start of the thread, so...why continue?

195 HippieforLife  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:27am

If we were to discount the murder of a soldier by a lone wacko, why are we so willing to accept that the murder of a doctor by a lone wacko is somehow part of a vast "pro-life conspiracy".

I would hope that we are all pro-life regardless of our views on abortion, war, etc.

In this case it was two wrongs, no right involved. The "pro-life" issue has been clouded by the Government getting involved. It should not have ever been a political football.

I have seen too many, from both sides of the spectrum, willing to lay blame at someone's feet. The only people to "blame" are the two men who pulled the trigger and killed another man.

196 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:35am

re: #190 iceweasel

Deciding to start killing people for doing things that are legal is to take up war against the US government and the US system of laws.

Did I post otherwise?

197 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:23:41am
198 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:03am

re: #189 Dianna


. Now, you appear to be insisting that the "anti-tax" groups of a decade ago are identical with those of us who object to current policy.


Strawman. Repetition is going to make that statement true.

199 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:09am

re: #183 Dianna

We saw it yesterday, though.

I missed it.

200 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #147 Russkilitlover

*Correction* It was in Playboy magazine as an article. The ugly hateful comments were on the website.

201 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:14am

Well..My dear Lizards..That painful moment is upon me..
It's time to log off and go to my friends showing at the funeral home...
I can barely handle this.. a 40 yr. old Speedway Policeman with a wife and 3 children died from a heart defect Sunday...He was talking to His wife Terry when he passed...The pain for their family is almost unbearable..
Please say a prayer for them today.. *tears*
Love you guys

202 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:18am

re: #174 zombie

Oh my goodness, zombie! Get some perspective. That is way over-the-top hyperbole. Or am I missing your sarc tag?

203 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:32am

re: #179 Killgore Trout

A lot of people here spend a lot of time and energy trying to prevent me from looking into this stuff.

KT, that is paranoia.

204 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:24:42am

re: #180 Nevergiveup

Well maybe, but i guess one could make the argument that with out Judas, there would not have been a martyred Jesus and thus no Christianity?

That's an old line of reasoning I used to use to drive my Christian friends bananas! I would suggest that Judas should be the greatest saint of Christianity, because without him the religion literally could not exist. I was just needling them, but they'd tie themselves into knots trying to extricate themselves from the conundrum.

Then, of course, there's Leon Rosselson's "Stand Up For Judas," but that's a different story altogether.

205 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:25:07am
206 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:25:12am

re: #199 MandyManners

I missed it.

Ah. I didn't. I thought it quite an interesting history of increasing paranoia and obsession.

207 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:25:13am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

Deepest sympathy.

208 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:25:35am

re: #177 Occasional Reader

Hm... tall order there. What about, say, Torquemada?

No one remembers those old dudes anymore. Anything that happened before last Tuesday is ancient history.

209 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:25:37am

re: #174 zombie

Scott Roeder has done more damage to Christianity than anyone since Judas.

To Christianity? Why? It ought to damage to the fringe pro-life movement, but why should this reflect on Christ and his followers who don't happen to be nuts?

210 HippieforLife  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:25:43am

re: #141 MandyManners

Mandy, at least his ex didn't blame Bill O'Reilly and Fox News.

211 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:02am

re: #172 flyovercountry

Re: #118 MrSilverDragon

Inept or not, that shit doesn't belong here.

You've missed the point. I don't belive in terrorism either. I do believe in the psychology of law enforcement, and even defense. Our home grown terrorists are a different breed. Their actions, while reprehensible do not show the same level of fanaticism. for example, The murderer was caught trying to escape. Had he been of the Islamic variety, he would have most likely martyred himself. Our accomplis tried to hide her connection. Islamic groups would be lining up to take credit, whether or not they had anything to do with it. Knowing your enemy allows you to fight them more effectively. This is my point.

agreed, I said the same thing yesterday in so many words...it's a fine line but a clear distinction none the less

212 subsailor68  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:18am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

Hoops, hang in there my friend. Your friend is lucky in one respect. We should all be so blessed as to have someone willing to shed tears for us, as you do for him.

213 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:24am

re: #202 Kenneth

Oh my goodness, zombie! Get some perspective. That is way over-the-top hyperbole. Or am I missing your sarc tag?

Think of it as a semi-sarc tag -- sort of like a semi-colon.

214 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:25am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

Thoughts and prayers to his friends and family.

215 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:34am

re: #192 drcordell

Using "greek scriptures" sounds great as a post on a comments thread, but in practicality doesn't make much sense. As I mentioned earlier, excommunicating someone from a religious denomination is going to boil down to that church's internal politics. Greek scriptures or not, there has to be political will to forcibly remove people with radical anti-abortion views.

Unfortunately, it's just like any other issue we face in this nation today. It's not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about politics.

I use that term the same as scholars use it. It is similar as using BCE and CE, it's a religiously neutral term. And yes, I am being an absolutist, but I think it does matter.

216 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:38am

re: #198 Killgore Trout

Strawman. Repetition is going to make that statement true.

Not so.

I am asking you to back up and look for evidence before you insist that everything is part of some vast tea-party based insanity!

217 jones  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:26:57am

It will be interesting where a felon got his gun at.

218 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:06am

re: #176 Dianna

He could easily be right. He could easily be wrong. I get tired of his instant drawing of that card, before he brings out any evidence.

I like watching all the downdings when he brings it out, and the lack of updings when it turns out he's right.

219 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:08am

re: #200 Russkilitlover

*Correction* It was in Playboy magazine as an article. The ugly hateful comments were on the website.

I'll have to look for that, I only get it for the naked women.

220 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:25am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

Well..My dear Lizards..That painful moment is upon me..
It's time to log off and go to my friends showing at the funeral home...
I can barely handle this.. a 40 yr. old Speedway Policeman with a wife and 3 children died from a heart defect Sunday...He was talking to His wife Terry when he passed...The pain for their family is almost unbearable..
Please say a prayer for them today.. *tears*
Love you guys

{HH}

221 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:31am
Tiller took his practice leaps and bounds beyond the norm and peddled abortion packages that included photographing, footprinting, handprinting,

Oh man. I condemn the moral equivalency of that website. But man... footprinting the remains? I've seen my share of remains but that just hurt my stomach.

222 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:35am

re: #185 Dianna

Really? Huh. I didn't realize I'd been that talkative.

Piker.

/

223 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:37am

re: #209 capitalist piglet

To Christianity? Why? It ought to damage to the fringe pro-life movement, but why should this reflect on Christ and his followers who don't happen to be nuts?

Beleive me, the media and the left have already used his actions to smear all of Christianity, and will continue to do so for years to come. Relentlessly.

224 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:55am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Guys, quick OT question. I just got a hilariously awful e-mail about an upcoming anti-Israel event in SF. With graphics. Charles has probably already seen it, but where can I sent it to in case he hasn't?

I don't know if I can paste the graphics into the contact form. Will that work?

Thanks.

Interruption ended.

Forward it to zombie.

225 CyanSnowHawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:27:59am

re: #213 zombie

Think of it as a semi-sarc tag -- sort of like a semi-colon.

Either way, it's on the wrong side of the asshole.
/

226 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:28:12am

re: #208 zombie

No one remembers those old dudes anymore. Anything that happened before last Tuesday is ancient history.

Splitter! Heretic! Everyone knows that anything that happened before last Thursday is ancient history.
/sarc

227 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:28:50am

re: #224 Alouette

Forward it to zombie.

Send it here.

228 drcordell  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:00am

re: #200 Russkilitlover

Is the concept of the "hate f*ck" is really that outrageous.
I mean, you can't exactly expect Playboy to align themselves with conservative political interests. It's a titty mag.

That being said, I think the "hate f*ck" works equally as well coming from the other side of the aisle. If given the opportunity no lizards would take a roll-in-the-hay with an extremely gorgeous "moonbat"?

229 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:31am

re: #208 zombie

No one remembers those old dudes anymore. Anything that happened before last Tuesday is ancient history.

So you just can't torquemada anything?

/pace, Mel Brooks

230 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:39am

re: #217 jones

It will be interesting where a felon got his gun at.

Which felon, the guy who sot the Doc or the guy who shot our Soldiers?

231 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:46am

re: #228 drcordell

If given the opportunity no lizards would take a roll-in-the-hay with an extremely gorgeous "moonbat"?

Unless they have really bad allergies/

232 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:48am

re: #179 Killgore Trout

Ok, there's nothing wrong with checking.....

Google Search

Most references appear to be coincidental usage of language. There's a few suspect things but nothing serious enough to continue. A lot of people here spend a lot of time and energy trying to prevent me from looking into this stuff.

No one's trying to prevent you from looking into this stuff, and we couldn't even if we wanted to. We just don't encourage you.

233 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:29:50am

re: #78 Charles

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

I do not consider this site representative of the right wing. By viewing the sites archives one can easily see this site is truly a fanatical 'on the fringe' anti-abortion site.

234 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:13am

re: #218 wrenchwench

I like watching all the downdings when he brings it out, and the lack of updings when it turns out he's right.

Kill the messenger syndrome.

235 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:18am

re: #209 capitalist piglet

To Christianity? Why? It ought to damage to the fringe pro-life movement, but why should this reflect on Christ and his followers who don't happen to be nuts?

Because the "Christian Church" allows this kind of "thinking" to exist among their congregations. That's been my point all down this thread.

Many of the people like Scott ARE followers, and they do happen to be nuts, and they have free reign to call themselves Christians, attend Christian churches and speak in the mane of Christianity.

236 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:19am

re: #209 capitalist piglet

To Christianity? Why? It ought to damage to the fringe pro-life movement, but why should this reflect on Christ and his followers who don't happen to be nuts?

Because (according to some rather doctrinaire thinkers) you are nuts; Roeder indicates it; vile posts by people who call themselves Christians proves it.

No, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to. You have to defend against the charge, too.

Just as anyone who attends a tea party (of any variety, now - do we dare have a tea in support of a potential candidate any more?) now has to prove he/she is not a racist, gold-standard supporting, Fed abolishing nut.

237 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:47am
238 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:51am

re: #216 Dianna

Not so.

I am asking you to back up and look for evidence before you insist that everything is part of some vast tea-party based insanity!

You're obviously part of the conspiracy to keep Killgore from uncovering the truth.

//

239 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:53am

re: #217 jones

It will be interesting where a felon got his gun at, asshole.

Sorry! Your preposition was dangling.

240 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:30:57am

SoCons are our moral superiors!

They know when extremism and employing violence to exact God's will (which is NOT terrorism because Allah is NOT God) is appropriate.

Those of you who argue with these propositions are morally weak and will burn in the hellfire for eternity!

Have a nice day!

/ (in event of Rapture, this post will be empty)

241 pianobuff  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:31:23am

re: #228 drcordell

Is the concept of the "hate f*ck" is really that outrageous.
I mean, you can't exactly expect Playboy to align themselves with conservative political interests. It's a titty mag.

That being said, I think the "hate f*ck" works equally as well coming from the other side of the aisle. If given the opportunity no lizards would take a roll-in-the-hay with an extremely gorgeous "moonbat"?

Parody already posted here.

"The 10 Hottest Liberal Women"

242 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:31:27am

re: #226 Honorary Yooper

Splitter! Heretic! Everyone knows that anything that happened before last Thursday is ancient history.
/sarc

You Thursdayists are blasphemers and apostates!

Tuesday it is, and Tuesday it shall evermore be!

243 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:31:42am

re: #223 zombie

Frankly, I think both Roeder and Tiller were each horribly lousy Christians and caused great harm.

I am making no moral equivocation between either of them, or any justification for murders committed by either of them.

244 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:31:49am

re: #232 doppelganglander

We just don't encourage you.


Maybe you should. There are some very serious political mistakes being made on the right. It's going to take a lot of time to recover from the damage already done. Continuing is only doing more damage.

245 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:31:50am

re: #236 Dianna

Because (according to some rather doctrinaire thinkers) you are nuts; Roeder indicates it; vile posts by people who call themselves Christians proves it.

No, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to. You have to defend against the charge, too.

Just as anyone who attends a tea party (of any variety, now - do we dare have a tea in support of a potential candidate any more?) now has to prove he/she is not a racist, gold-standard supporting, Fed abolishing nut.

Yes.

246 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:32:18am

re: #237 buzzsawmonkey

"Titty mag" sounds like some salacious hot rod wheel for Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

Reaching, buzz. Sometimes a "titty mag" is just a "titty mag".

(And now you've got me looking nervously over my shoulder for the Child-Catcher... thanks a lot, buddy.)

247 jones  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:32:21am

re: #230 Nevergiveup

Which felon, the guy who sot the Doc or the guy who shot our Soldiers?

Roeder. Was Mujahid Muhammad a felon too?

Then both.

248 1SG(ret)  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:32:29am

re: #203 Dianna

And the only restraint on anyone's research is thier own. How could anyone here possibly stop TK or anyone else from doing research.

249 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:32:36am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

{HoosierHoops}

250 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:32:54am
251 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:33:16am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

Prayers and condolences to you.

252 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:33:19am

re: #218 wrenchwench

I like watching all the downdings when he brings it out, and the lack of updings when it turns out he's right.

I don't object to his being right; if I see him present good evidence - tying one group to another - I'll upding it (assuming I'm on).

I'm tired - profoundly - of KT demonstrating his ability to leap ahead of his evidence and pull that brush out of the tar-bucket and start slinging. Worse, I'm worried by him whining about how persecuted he is.

253 S'latch  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:33:20am

re: #223 zombie

If Scott Roeder ever gets the opportunity to make a public statement, I will not be surprised if he cites his Christian faith as supporting his action.

254 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:33:42am

Maybe Randall Terry can use one of those angel paperweights for a doorstop, to prop the door open for the FBI and DHS, so they can easily get all all those PCs and boxes of files out.

255 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:33:59am

re: #243 Kenneth

Frankly, I think both Roeder and Tiller were each horribly lousy Christians and caused great harm.

I am making no moral equivocation between either of them, or any justification for murders committed by either of them.

Sounds like you're making a moral equivocation to me.

256 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:34:47am
257 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:35:14am

re: #206 Dianna

Ah. I didn't. I thought it quite an interesting history of increasing paranoia and obsession.

Yes, it is.

258 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:35:38am

re: #255 zombie

specify?

259 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:35:43am

re: #185 Dianna

[Link: www.brutallyhonest.org...]

Happy 28,000th !

260 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:35:51am

re: #243 Kenneth

Frankly, I think both Roeder and Tiller were each horribly lousy Christians and caused great harm.

I am making no moral equivocation between either of them, or any justification for murders committed by either of them.

Tiller murdered no one, the worst he was charged with were misdemeanors and found innocent of even that.

261 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:35:57am

re: #243 Kenneth

Frankly, I think both Roeder and Tiller were each horribly lousy Christians and caused great harm.

I am making no moral equivocation between either of them, or any justification for murders committed by either of them.

an intellectual exercise at best...there is no one answer, because it gets too deep into semantics...are these good Christians?, no....have Christians been tarnished?, yes...so is Christianity bad?...no...etc etc

262 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:10am

re: #250 buzzsawmonkey

"Good Buy! Ruby Tuesday"

--sale sign on a jewelry store

Does the law of supply and diamonds apply to anything outside the jewelry industry?

263 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:18am

Some good news: Pakistani troops rescue students. Turns out is was only 76 abducted as opposed to hundreds as some reported. One is too many.

264 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:30am
265 zigaretten  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:49am

re: #143 Yashmak

If there was evidence (even if only circumstantial) of such a connection or conspiracy, shouldn't it be looked into?

Evidence of a connection? If connections were illegal then half of the polititians here in my beloved Oakland would be in prison for their connections with Jim Jones and the other half in prison over the recent "Black Muslim Bakery" murders. In other words......No.

Show me evidence of a conspiracy, which this isn't, and I'll support looking into it.

As for your doubts about what I do and do not discount, well, I'm still paying my taxes and not bombing things, every day.

(And please, I am aware that "looking into" is actually such a vague term as to be meaningless. I don't actually object to people "looking into" anything, up to and including the involvement of UFOs...I do object to suggestions of criminal activity, including suggestions of conspiracy to commit murder, without any evidence.)

266 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:56am
267 drcordell  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:57am

re: #235 Walter L. Newton

That's the rub Walter. How can you police who labels themselves a "Christian" with a government that is forbidden from intruding on religious freedoms? Even the churches themselves have no way of preventing nutjobs from committing heinous acts and proclaiming they were done in Christ's name.

The only thing churches can do is issue proclamations and establish Church doctrine that makes their views clear. And as I said previously, taking any of these actions means an inevitable descent into the political clusterf*ck that is the abortion debate.

268 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:36:58am

re: #228 drcordell

Is the concept of the "hate f*ck" is really that outrageous.

It's rape. Yes, it's really that outrageous to me. If not to you, FOAD.

269 HippieforLife  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:00am

re: #260 avanti

60,000 unborn children is "no one"?

270 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:01am

re: #247 jones

Roeder. Was Mujahid Muhammad a felon too?

Then both.

He is now

271 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:02am

re: #255 zombie

Sounds like you're making a moral equivocation to me.

Why is one scorned for finding fault with Tiller's actions.

272 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:26am

re: #218 wrenchwench

I like watching all the downdings when he brings it out, and the lack of updings when it turns out he's right.

Then again, there was his dire warning yesterday that the Little Rock military recruitment center shooter was quite likely a right-wing extremist.

Didn't quite work out that way, it seems.

273 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:35am

re: #252 Dianna

It's a tedious topic for me too but as long as people here are in denial about it I'll continue.

274 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:35am

re: #248 1SG(ret)

And the only restraint on anyone's research is thier own. How could anyone here possibly stop TK or anyone else from doing research.

Nor would I wish to.

275 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:37:59am

re: #262 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Does the law of supply and diamonds apply to anything outside the jewelry industry?

No idea, but should we lead the onyx with the carat or the schitck?

276 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:38:01am

re: #244 Killgore Trout

Maybe you should. There are some very serious political mistakes being made on the right. It's going to take a lot of time to recover from the damage already done. Continuing is only doing more damage.

Then I suggest you offer yourself for hire as a political consultant. I don't disagree that the GOP has embraced some counterproductive, even foolish positions. I do think that your earnest efforts to tie every nut on the tree to the party leadership does nothing to help, and actually plays into the hands of Democrats who want to portray Republicans as supportive of the likes of Roeder. I would welcome your positive suggestions for marginalizing the crazies and rebuilding the party.

277 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:38:02am

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

Ask me again after I've had a couple of De Beers.

Wish you'd throw a couple of those DeBeers my way.

278 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:38:25am

re: #260 avanti

Tiller murdered no one, the worst he was charged with were misdemeanors and found innocent of even that.

It often takes time, and political motivation to bring forward a case against even the most vile of criminals.

279 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:38:28am

re: #258 Kenneth

specify?

You refer to both of them in your sentences as being of a type: they "both" are the same thing. It seems like you're drawing a sort of equivalence between the two: Both are bad Christians, both are murderers, both had no justification. If that's not equivalence, what is?

280 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:38:32am

re: #221 experiencedtraveller

Oh man. I condemn the moral equivalency of that website. But man... footprinting the remains? I've seen my share of remains but that just hurt my stomach.

Uh, excuse me -- but that service was intended to be a small comfort to women who were forced to undergo late term abortions for medical reasons. Contrary to the anti-abortion propaganda, the vast majority of the very few women who undergo late term abortions find it a wrenching, painful experience -- not something they do on the spur of the moment. What's wrong with having a small memorial to their child?

281 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:38:41am

re: #246 Occasional Reader

Reaching, buzz. Sometimes a "titty mag" is just a "titty mag".

(And now you've got me looking nervously over my shoulder for the Child-Catcher... thanks a lot, buddy.)

"Chocolates.......Loolllllliiiiippppppops! And all FREE today!"

282 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:38:51am

re: #250 buzzsawmonkey

"Good Buy! Ruby Tuesday"

--sale sign on a jewelry store

I always suspected you were a SoCon, a NeoCon, maybe even a PaleoCon.

I had no idea you were actually a ZirCon.

283 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:39:09am

re: #276 doppelganglander

Then I suggest you offer yourself for hire as a political consultant. I don't disagree that the GOP has embraced some counterproductive, even foolish positions. I do think that your earnest efforts to tie every nut on the tree to the party leadership does nothing to help, and actually plays into the hands of Democrats who want to portray Republicans as supportive of the likes of Roeder. I would welcome your positive suggestions for marginalizing the crazies and rebuilding the party.

Amen.

284 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:39:36am
285 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:39:37am

re: #233 unrealizedviewpoint

I do not consider this site representative of the right wing. By viewing the sites archives one can easily see this site is truly a fanatical 'on the fringe' anti-abortion site.

You can easily find similar sentiments -- and worse, much worse -- all over right wing websites.

286 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:39:45am

re: #260 avanti

BY current US law, you are correct, Tiller murdered no one. But he did end the lives of thousands of fetuses. Millions of people sincerely believe that is murder, no matter what the current law says.

Now just in case anybody accuses me of endorsing the murder of Tiller, I do not.

287 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:40:27am

re: #281 Russkilitlover

"Chocolates.......Loolllllliiiiippppppops! And all FREE today!"

STOP IT! STOP IT!

/sleeping with the Mossberg tonight

288 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:41:02am

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

I have many facets. And some facetiousness.

Your brilliance just continues to cut me with its clarity.

289 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:41:07am

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

I have many facets. And some facetiousness.

What makes you think we carat all?

290 tedzilla99  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:41:16am

re: #88 P. Aaron

However...Bill Ayers wouldn't have any influence over anything Obama believes or does.

Close associations are only reserved for Conservatives and anti-Abortion right wingers.

Came here to post something similar.

291 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:41:31am

re: #289 Occasional Reader

What makes you think we carat all?

Because he's a cut above the rest.

292 drcordell  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:41:38am

re: #268 Russkilitlover

No, a "hate f*ck" is not rape. Not sure where you got that definition from. A "hate f*ck" is having consensual sex with someone who you dislike personally, but are attracted to physically. It has nothing to do with forcing yourself upon a woman.

293 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:05am
294 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:09am

re: #285 Charles

You can easily find similar sentiments -- and worse, much worse -- all over right wing websites.

If so, then maybe they should be hung out to dry as examples of right wing and not some fringe anti-abortion site?
just sayin

295 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:19am

re: #276 doppelganglander

your earnest efforts to tie every nut on the tree to the party leadership


Strawman.

....does nothing to help, and actually plays into the hands of Democrats who want to portray Republicans as supportive of the likes of Roeder.


Not my problem.


I would welcome your positive suggestions for marginalizing the crazies and rebuilding the party.

At this point I don't think it can be done. My suggestion is not attend and contribute to mainstreaming them.

296 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:26am

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

You rock!

297 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:29am

re: #289 Occasional Reader

What makes you think we carat all?

Brilliant cut. You really shine at these pun threads.

298 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #273 Killgore Trout

It's a tedious topic for me too but as long as people here are in denial about it I'll continue.

Sigh.

Once more: it's not about denial. It's about the way you're doing things.

First, you make some blanket statement, actively offensive to people because it essentially accuses them of being racist (etc. etc.) nuts.

Then you say you're being persecuted.

Only then do you actually provide any evidence - oh, and half the time, it's a grandiose claim from some fringe racist site!

There are - and always will be - problems of association. You never know when you're going to find yourself sitting next to someone whose views you would find utterly repugnant, particularly at any kind of political event, or even a lecture at the Independent Institute (an nonpartisan organization here in the Bay Area). Finding out who's involved in your interest areas is important.

But paranoia and broad-brush statements aren't terribly helpful. They're paralyzing.

299 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:42:48am

re: #235 Walter L. Newton

Because the "Christian Church" allows this kind of "thinking" to exist among their congregations. That's been my point all down this thread.

Many of the people like Scott ARE followers, and they do happen to be nuts, and they have free reign to call themselves Christians, attend Christian churches and speak in the mane of Christianity.

So broad-brushing is okay, if Christians are the canvas?

I'm a Christian, and I couldn't express my disgust with "Operation Rescue" or this cold-blooded murderer any more clearly than I already have. I am equally disgusted with his fan club.

I am far from unique.

I know you're right about the media, Walter - I just have to say I am not digging this attempt to make a crazy bastard the poster boy for the faith I have chosen...and those that want to (the aforementioned "fan club") need their asses kicked in a major way, as far as I'm concerned.

This guy, and those who think he's some kind of hero, may be Christians if they are trusting Christ for their salvation as I am - but that doesn't make them my representatives.

(I don't mean to sound harsh, but when I disavow this stuff, I mean it.)

300 S'latch  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:43:02am

re: #265 zigaretten

Actually, the phone number is evidence of a conspiracy. It is very small. It is certainly insufficient evidence for a conviction. It is far short of "beyond a reasonable doubt," or even a "preponderance." Much more evidence would be required. But, I bet it is evidence upon which a judge might issue a search warrant.

This story is developing. None of us know what more might be discovered at this time.

301 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:43:07am

re: #297 doppelganglander

Brilliant cut. You really shine at these pun threads.

It's a positive flaw, really.

302 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:43:08am

re: #297 doppelganglander

Brilliant cut. You really shine at these pun threads.

I'm even better at diamond puns after I've quaffed a few of De Beers.

303 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:43:18am

re: #286 Kenneth

BY current US law, you are correct, Tiller murdered no one. But he did end the lives of thousands of fetuses. Millions of people sincerely believe that is murder, no matter what the current law says.

Now just in case anybody accuses me of endorsing the murder of Tiller, I do not.

If you saw someone about to stab a victim to death on the street, and you had the opportunity to stop him, would you?

Would you stop him if the victim was a child?

Would you stop him if he was about to stab 100 children to death?

If you truly think abortion is murder, isn't it immoral to not stop the murderer from committing his deed?

304 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:43:26am

re: #294 unrealizedviewpoint

If so, then maybe they should be hung out to dry as examples of right wing and not some fringe anti-abortion site?
just sayin

Perhaps you missed this post:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

305 redstateredneck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:43:52am

re: #299 capitalist piglet

What you said.

306 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:44:21am

re: #292 drcordell

Read the comments. They are way beyond your "innocent" definition. Definite violence being cheered on there.

307 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:44:21am

re: #280 Charles

Uh, excuse me -- but that service was intended to be a small comfort to women who were forced to undergo late term abortions for medical reasons. Contrary to the anti-abortion propaganda, the vast majority of the very few women who undergo late term abortions find it a wrenching, painful experience -- not something they do on the spur of the moment. What's wrong with having a small memorial to their child?

Sadly, the "health of the mother" exception is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through.

308 Flyers1974  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:44:23am

re: #292 drcordell

No, a "hate f*ck" is not rape. Not sure where you got that definition from. A "hate f*ck" is having consensual sex with someone who you dislike personally, but are attracted to physically. It has nothing to do with forcing yourself upon a woman.

I thought it was a profane term for "ex-sex." Never would have occurred to me it was another word for rape.

309 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:44:30am

re: #293 buzzsawmonkey

...and may we meet only on happy occlusions.

Hey, don't take it for garnet.

310 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:44:54am

re: #279 zombie

Not all people guilty of crimes are equivalent. The sins of Tiller and Roeder are different. They were each poor Christians, each in their own way. Not equivalent, and not justified.

311 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:14am

re: #275 Honorary Yooper

No idea, but should we lead the onyx with the carat or the schitck?

The schitck, of course, and if he doesn't behave we should roast his gamey bullocks.

312 itellu3times  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:29am

re: #96 MandyManners

He's dead, Jim.

Tough gig.

313 redstateredneck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:36am

re: #307 Ward Cleaver

Sadly, the "health of the mother" exception is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through.

Isn't mental health included?

314 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:38am

re: #292 drcordell

Ugh!

315 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:45am

re: #272 Occasional Reader

Then again, there was his dire warning yesterday that the Little Rock military recruitment center shooter was quite likely a right-wing extremist.

Didn't quite work out that way, it seems.

Well, if he wasn't wrong sometimes, it would take some of the fun out of it.

316 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:49am

re: #307 Ward Cleaver

Sadly, the "health of the mother" exception is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through.

Not in late term abortions it isn't -- the state of Kansas has very strict rules about who can undergo that kind of procedure. One of the rules is that two independent doctors have to sign off on a late term abortion.

317 KenJen  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:50am

re: #289 Occasional Reader

What makes you think we carat all?

re: #291 Walter L. Newton

Because he's a cut above the rest.

These puns are losing their luster.

318 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:52am

re: #269 HippieforLife

60,000 unborn children is "no one"?

He said "murdered" Trust me, calling it murder is part of why of the reason Tiller was actually murdered. I guess I could rationalize killing a murderer of 60,000 myself and that's the problem.
Abortion is legal, it's the law and it is not murder and I'll take all the down dings you've got for stating the truth.

319 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:45:55am

re: #309 Honorary Yooper

Hey, don't take it for garnet.

Rather than bandying about these silly puns, shouldn't we be reading the musings of prominent conservative pundits? Like William Sapphire, for instance.

320 moonstone  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:12am

I'm probably going to be crushed or banned for this, but I'm saying it anyway.

I CERTAINLY don't agree with killing abortion doctors, any more than killing army recruiters or anyone else, but there's one little thing that nags at me when I see this hatred and contempt spewed toward anti-abortion groups (not the killers or bombers; they deserve our hatred and contempt):

I personally believe abortion is killing a human being. I've always thought that groups like OR and other protesters just believe it more strongly than I do or at least are willing to do more about it. I know the majority of people on this forum are pro-choice. However -- what if parents, with the blessing of SCOTUS, were killing 4,000 toddlers per day? Or 4,000 teenagers? What would I do about that, or what would we be saying on this forum about it? That it's the law of the land, and the parents have the right? I don't know. I hope not.

I guess I'm trying to say that I don't think that anti-abortion people (and apparently by association, Christians in general) deserve the blanket condemnation that they are receiving here.

321 redstateredneck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:18am

re: #313 redstateredneck

Isn't mental health included?

Or, rather, emotional well being...

322 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:25am
323 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:29am

re: #304 Charles

Perhaps you missed this post:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I didn't miss it. We exchanged comments.
Sure there's vileness abound. But is this fringe site representative of me, a righty? I don't think so.

324 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:44am

re: #295 Killgore Trout

Singularly useless.

325 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:52am

Time for me to go.

326 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:46:53am
327 drcordell  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:47:11am

re: #306 Russkilitlover

I am beyond shocked that unmoderated, anonymous internet comments contain offensive and disgusting remarks!

/

328 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:47:20am

re: #280 Charles

Uh, excuse me -- but that service was intended to be a small comfort to women who were forced to undergo late term abortions for medical reasons. Contrary to the anti-abortion propaganda, the vast majority of the very few women who undergo late term abortions find it a wrenching, painful experience -- not something they do on the spur of the moment. What's wrong with having a small memorial to their child?

Are you sure all the women who have late term abortions are doing it purely for medical reasons? Do you have any links or statistics on that?

329 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:47:23am

re: #319 Occasional Reader

Rather than bandying about these silly puns, shouldn't we be reading the musings of prominent conservative pundits? Like William Sapphire, for instance.

It's a corundum, but elbaite... ganite be better?

330 rightside  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:47:30am

re: #322 justabill

good one.

331 redstateredneck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:47:50am

Outta here.
Later, lizards.

332 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #303 zombie

If you saw someone about to stab a victim to death on the street, and you had the opportunity to stop him, would you?

Would you stop him if the victim was a child?

Would you stop him if he was about to stab 100 children to death?

If you truly think abortion is murder, isn't it immoral to not stop the murderer from committing his deed
?

It's immoral not to take appropriate action; but to take the action of committing murder is just as immoral.

I am pro-life and do many things in support of that position, which I won't bore anyone with here.

But in no way, shape or form does anything I do have anything to do with murder, vandalism, or anything else that is illegal and/or immoral.

333 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #299 capitalist piglet

So broad-brushing is okay, if Christians are the canvas?

Well, we aren't talking about Muslims. How the hell can I talk about this if it's not about Christians. It's not a broad-brush, I feel it's a broad problem among congregations.

There are congregants among the churches who really should not be there, and it's going to be up to the congregations themselves, and the leadership to shake out these people, to shun them, to not support anything about them, and not worry about being popular, or how many asses they put in the pew.

If the church wants to divorce themselves from these kinds of wackos, then they are going to have to do something about it.

That's my point.

334 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:48:08am

re: #303 zombie

If you saw someone about to stab a victim to death on the street, and you had the opportunity to stop him, would you?

Would you stop him if the victim was a child?

Would you stop him if he was about to stab 100 children to death?

If you truly think abortion is murder, isn't it immoral to not stop the murderer from committing his deed?

Never let it be said that zombie isn't afraid to poke a stick in a hornet's nest.

335 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:48:24am

re: #326 buzzsawmonkey

What the hell was that?

Threadjacking.

336 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:48:27am

re: #324 Dianna

Singularly useless.

Passive acceptance of evil, wonderful strategy for keeping the kooks out that is.

337 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:48:33am

re: #303 zombie

If you saw someone about to stab a victim to death on the street, and you had the opportunity to stop him, would you?

Would you stop him if the victim was a child?

Would you stop him if he was about to stab 100 children to death?

If you truly think abortion is murder, isn't it immoral to not stop the murderer from committing his deed?

Is that your line of thinking or are you trying to goad me?

338 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:48:52am

re: #280 Charles

Uh, excuse me -- but that service was intended to be a small comfort to women who were forced to undergo late term abortions for medical reasons. Contrary to the anti-abortion propaganda, the vast majority of the very few women who undergo late term abortions find it a wrenching, painful experience -- not something they do on the spur of the moment. What's wrong with having a small memorial to their child?

OK! Good news. Phew. I feel better. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me.

339 S'latch  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:49:09am

re: #322 justabill

No way, bro!

340 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:49:25am

re: #295 Killgore Trout

In other words, you enjoy being a destructive force and contributing to the decline of a political party without encouraging anything positive in its place. If you are actually a moderate, you should understand the importance of two healthy parties, run by grownups, to maintain our system of government. A permanent majority of EITHER party is a bad thing. The clash of ideas is necessary for the system to function. As it stands now, I hope you enjoy a weak defense, threats from abroad, the socialization of major industries, high taxes, and intrusive social policies, because that's what you're going to get if the GOP doesn't rebuild a credible, center-right party.

341 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:49:50am

re: #316 Charles

And it was on that latter point that Tiller was alleged to have circumvented the law by having another doctor in his own practice sign off on procedures.

342 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:11am

re: #334 Occasional Reader

Never let it be said that zombie isn't afraid to poke a stick in a hornet's nest.

I poke the nest, and then poke it again, and then stick my head in and say, "Hey, hornets -- come and get me!"

343 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:12am

re: #319 Occasional Reader

Rather than bandying about these silly puns, shouldn't we be reading the musings of prominent conservative pundits? Like William Sapphire, for instance.


Amethyst close to getting back to work...

344 bloodnok  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:18am

re: #272 Occasional Reader

Then again, there was his dire warning yesterday that the Little Rock military recruitment center shooter was quite likely a right-wing extremist.

Didn't quite work out that way, it seems.

It's his opinion. We can all be wrong. I'm not sure why people are expecting one commenter to have every answer instead of just giving their opinion.

345 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:20am

re: #328 Kenneth

Are you sure all the women who have late term abortions are doing it purely for medical reasons? Do you have any links or statistics on that?

Am I "sure" that all women are having late term abortions for medical reasons? No, I'm not sure, and I didn't say I was sure. However, there are strict rules in states that allow these procedures, intended to make sure that medical reasons are involved. Those are facts.

I seriously doubt that there are many women who casually decide to abort a baby, after carrying it nearly to term. If you think there are, let's see your statistics.

346 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:28am

re: #326 buzzsawmonkey

What the hell was that?

China's buying Hummer production.

347 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:47am

re: #289 Occasional Reader

What makes you think we carat all?

Emerald enough to know better.

348 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:50:50am

re: #334 Occasional Reader

Never let it be said that zombie isn't is afraid to poke a stick in a hornet's nest.

[sigh]

349 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:51:05am

re: #271 unrealizedviewpoint

Why is one scorned for finding fault with Tiller's actions.

You are missing the point, calling Tiller a murderer is a sort or moral equivalence to the guy that did a real murder . Disagree with abortion, call it a sin if you like, but murder is over the top.

350 justabill  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:51:10am

re: #326 buzzsawmonkey
According to some reports, The Hummer division of GM is being sold to a Chinese company. Just having a bit of fun with it...

351 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:51:14am

re: #318 avanti

He said "murdered" Trust me, calling it murder is part of why of the reason Tiller was actually murdered. I guess I could rationalize killing a murderer of 60,000 myself and that's the problem.
Abortion is legal, it's the law and it is not murder and I'll take all the down dings you've got for stating the truth.

But then again, slavery was legal in this country, for 87 years. Jus' sayin'.

352 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:51:25am
353 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:51:31am

re: #334 Occasional Reader

Never let it be said that zombie isn't afraid to poke a stick in a hornet's nest.

Heh!

I updinged that for the cogency of the argument ... not because I agreed with the sentiment the argument illustrated.

354 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:51:51am

re: #341 lawhawk

And it was on that latter point that Tiller was alleged to have circumvented the law by having another doctor in his own practice sign off on procedures.

what kind of money do you suppose these guys were making?...

355 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:51:53am

re: #327 drcordell

could you manage to say, "Yuck" and sound like you mean it?

356 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:06am

re: #337 Kenneth

Is that your line of thinking or are you trying to goad me?

It's just me taking the "abortion is murder" position out to a logical conclusion.

If you really and truly think that abortion is the equivalent to the murder of an adult, how can you in all good conscience allow it to continue, if you had the opportunity to stop it?

357 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:08am

re: #346 MandyManners

China's buying Hummer production.

There's a pun in there somewhere, but instead of sucking, I'll let someone else have the job.

358 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:14am

re: #318 avanti

Abortion is legal, therefore it is not legally murder, but it is indeed killing life. There is no rational argument to be made otherwise. The various court rulings which upheld access to abortion ruled on the basis that a fetus in not a legal person. They did not rule that a fetus is not a life.

359 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:25am

re: #344 bloodnok

It's his opinion. We can all be wrong.

Yeah, but the fact that mixed in his opinion with scolding other posters for speculating about the shooter being a leftist or Islamist... not exactly KT's finest hour.

360 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:28am

re: #336 FurryOldGuyJeans

Passive acceptance of evil, wonderful strategy for keeping the kooks out that is.

I think you're right.

361 justabill  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:29am

Wow, moderators are quick...

362 brookly red  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:40am

re: #354 albusteve

what kind of money do you suppose these guys were making?...

I think I read 5K per...

363 CommonCents  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:52:46am

OT Shameless Plug:

If anyone is ever in/around Kalamazoo Michigan with some time to kill, I highly suggest going to the Air Zoo Museum. If you like aviation, you'll dig this. They have flight simulators, static displays of aircraft from WWI up through a real SR-71 Blackbird. And my uncle has a display in the Michigan Aviation Hall of Fame. Fee admission thru Sept. 30. Tis very cool.

364 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:53:03am

re: #324 Dianna

Singularly useless.

He's not a Republican, nor remotely conservative. He's a lefty who does not want any of the content of the tea parties to succeed; hence, the discrediting. The fact that leftist protest are chock full of upfront and visible vile anarchist, anti-American lunatics, to him doesn't taint their overall message of the protest in the same way as the tea parties and their loony fringe.

365 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:53:07am

re: #356 zombie

It's just me taking the "abortion is murder" position out to a logical conclusion.

If you really and truly think that abortion is the equivalent to the murder of an adult, how can you in all good conscience allow it to continue, if you had the opportunity to stop it?

Speaking for myself:

re: #332 reine.de.tout

It's immoral not to take appropriate action; but to take the action of committing murder is just as immoral.

I am pro-life and do many things in support of that position, which I won't bore anyone with here.

But in no way, shape or form does anything I do have anything to do with murder, vandalism, or anything else that is illegal and/or immoral.


re: #332 reine.de.tout

It's immoral not to take appropriate action; but to take the action of committing murder is just as immoral.

I am pro-life and do many things in support of that position, which I won't bore anyone with here.

But in no way, shape or form does anything I do have anything to do with murder, vandalism, or anything else that is illegal and/or immoral.

366 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:53:30am

re: #363 CommonCents

Do you think they can sweep the Penguins?

367 justabill  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:53:36am

It also looks like you can't gain karma from a deleted post. Interesting...

368 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:53:47am

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Logical. They've been making kazoos ever since Japan gave up producing cheap toys.

*barf*

369 badger1970  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:53:47am

re: #358 Kenneth

That is the only reason it is legal.

370 CommonCents  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:54:00am

re: #366 ilzito guacamolito

Do you think they can sweep the Penguins?

I know it. Whether they actually do or not is questionable.

371 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:54:33am

re: #363 CommonCents

Nice avatar. Time to play "whack a Penguin" again later on tonight.

Go Wings!

372 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:54:34am

re: #356 zombie

Do you have quick access to your (what I would call) definitive post on abortion from a couple of years back?

373 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:54:47am

re: #333 Walter L. Newton

Well, we aren't talking about Muslims. How the hell can I talk about this if it's not about Christians. It's not a broad-brush, I feel it's a broad problem among congregations.
There are congregants among the churches who really should not be there, and it's going to be up to the congregations themselves, and the leadership to shake out these people, to shun them, to not support anything about them, and not worry about being popular, or how many asses they put in the pew.

If the church wants to divorce themselves from these kinds of wackos, then they are going to have to do something about it.

That's my point.

You feel, or you know?

My pastor is a very tough guy. I haven't heard him talk about this yet, but I'd put my money on an incredibly strong condemnation of this incident. And when he kicks your ass, it's sore for the ride home.

Several thousand people attend my church. Beyond condemning this, what would you have him do?

Now, I know this will not be the case in every congregation, but I don't think we're the exception as much as we are the rule.

374 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:54:49am

re: #367 justabill

It isn't what it isn't, or something like that.

375 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:55:28am

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Logical. They've been making kazoos ever since Japan gave up producing cheap toys.

We must not allow China to develop a "slide whistle gap".

376 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:55:29am

re: #364 Russkilitlover

He's not a Republican, nor remotely conservative. He's a lefty who does not want any of the content of the tea parties to succeed; hence, the discrediting. The fact that leftist protest are chock full of upfront and visible vile anarchist, anti-American lunatics, to him doesn't taint their overall message of the protest in the same way as the tea parties and their loony fringe.

I disagree with that characterization of KT.

377 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:55:44am

So, Roeder was busted with bomb materials in his trunk in '96, and when he was caught just the other day he had the number of a woman who was busted conspiring to plant a bomb in '88.

Do you believe in coincidences?

378 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:56:08am

re: #328 Kenneth

Are you sure all the women who have late term abortions are doing it purely for medical reasons? Do you have any links or statistics on that?

If a woman must terminate a pregnancy at an advanced stage, because it causes great risk to her health, wouldn't she receive better treatment at a state of the art hospital instead of some little clinic out in the middle of nowhere? The only difference, apart from the superior treatment available, is that the hospital would also be equipped to save the life of the fetus.

379 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:56:22am
380 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:56:30am

re: #333 Walter L. Newton

I feel it's a broad problem among congregations.

I don't understand why you're singling out the female parishioners for all the blame.

//

381 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:57:16am

re: #349 avanti

You are missing the point, calling Tiller a murderer is a sort or moral equivalence to the guy that did a real murder . Disagree with abortion, call it a sin if you like, but murder is over the top.

At $5000 each, Tiller earned millions of dollars yearly performing late term abortions, his specialty. It's hard for me not to think of this man in any other way.

382 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:57:17am
383 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:57:36am

I heard Rush make a pretty profound statement yesterday, but was unable to listen long enough to know if he borrowed it or it was his own. He said that Obama is spending money that hasn’t been earned yet by people who haven’t been born yet. Sort of sums it up, doesn’t it?
Later he read from a piece in the English version of Pravda that sums everything up very nicely as well. Even the Russians get it.
Yuri Bezmenov was right.

Apologies if I am redundant by reposting someone else’s post.

Have a good rest of the day!

384 justabill  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:57:41am

Can moderators identify themselves? I'd be curious to know...

385 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:58:02am

re: #362 brookly red

I think I read 5K per...

so both doc collude with the sign off deal...do the abortion and rake in the dough...so in theory there is nobody to question the reason for the abortion?...all strictly legal...I suppose I could google Kansas law, but it seems like a surefire moneymaker, and abortion is big business

386 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:58:25am

re: #379 buzzsawmonkey

That means everyone must join in a concertina-ed effort.

Perhaps at your congregation, you could enlist other Jews to Harp on about it.


(okay, maybe it's supposed to be jaw-harp?... poetic license, ect.)

387 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:58:25am

re: #332 reine.de.tout

It's immoral not to take appropriate action; but to take the action of committing murder is just as immoral.

I am pro-life and do many things in support of that position, which I won't bore anyone with here.

But in no way, shape or form does anything I do have anything to do with murder, vandalism, or anything else that is illegal and/or immoral.

Killing someone to prevent them from killing someone else is not considered immoral in our society. Or even illegal. Policemen do it all the time when they shoot a criminal who has drawn a weapon. We do it in warfare. And even a homeowner in the US has the right to shoot an intruder he believes is about to kill the homeowner or his family.

In fact, it's considered immoral by our code of ethics to allow a rampaging killer to continue killing, if you have the opportunity to stop him.

Considering all this, and considering that Roeder apparently really and truly believed that "abortion is murder," then one can see how this logic led to his actions, and why many in his camp don't think he didn't anything wrong.

388 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:58:50am
389 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:58:57am

re: #384 justabill

Can moderators identify themselves? I'd be curious to know...

No, we're not allowed to.

/

390 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:59:00am

re: #375 Occasional Reader

We must not allow China to develop a "slide whistle gap".

we also need more domestic firecracker production

391 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 11:59:32am

re: #388 buzzsawmonkey

When you're in hock, you're in hock all the way
From the day you are born 'til they plant you to stay...


Womb to the tomb.

392 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:00:26pm

re: #373 capitalist piglet

You feel, or you know?

My pastor is a very tough guy. I haven't heard him talk about this yet, but I'd put my money on an incredibly strong condemnation of this incident. And when he kicks your ass, it's sore for the ride home.

Several thousand people attend my church. Beyond condemning this, what would you have him do?

Now, I know this will not be the case in every congregation, but I don't think we're the exception as much as we are the rule.

The broad problem I am mentioning is what I have been mentioning all down thread. The lack of policing congregations. The New Testament gives Christians all the processes that enable a congregation to shun and disfellowship members who are discrediting the community.

Shunning and disfellowshipping is rarely practiced now a days, and it should be. If your congregation has people who are pro-groups like Operation Rescue, then maybe that community should consider correcting those folks or asking them to remove themselves from the community.

Maybe if Christian congregations would keep out the rabble like Randall Terry and those type of followers, then the church would have some credibility when they denounce acts such as this killiing.

Before then, hollow rhetoric.

393 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:00:27pm

re: #351 Ward Cleaver

But then again, slavery was legal in this country, for 87 years. Jus' sayin'.

Yes, and it was opposed through legal means, up to and including war declared by the U.S. government. This is an interesting bit from Wiki (I know, I know):

President Abraham Lincoln said he was a "misguided fanatic" and Brown has been called "the most controversial of all 19th-century Americans."[1] His attempt in 1859 to start a liberation movement among enslaved African Americans in Harpers Ferry, Virginia electrified the nation. He was tried for treason against the state of Virginia, the murder of five proslavery Southerners, and inciting a slave insurrection and was subsequently hanged. Southerners alleged that his rebellion was the tip of the abolitionist iceberg and represented the wishes of the Republican Party. Historians agree that the Harpers Ferry raid in 1859 escalated tensions that a year later led to secession and the American Civil War.

As just as his cause was, Brown deserved to be hanged. The part in bold just shows how politics never really changes.

394 P. Aaron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:00:40pm

re: #145 wrenchwench

Do you mean since Obama's getting a pass for Wright, then Operation Rescue should get a pass from Roeder?

If not, what do you mean?

I guess I am saddened by the decline of what people value all around. It's a huge double standard that we hold certain folks accountable for incendiary rhetoric, but not others. Sharpton got off, Wright gets a pass, but when it involves a perceived 'right-winger', then suddenly we're falling over apologetic for it because of the pro-life position.

The left it seems, doesn't care what wreckage they wreak, but if it comes from a supposed 'right-wing' entity, both sides gets all Law & Order about that.

A lack of consistency.

But asking the left to be consistent may mean that they would have to embrace ALL life.

395 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:00:50pm

re: #382 buzzsawmonkey

"There are 24 hours in a day, and 24 beers in a case. Son, that ain't no coincidence".

396 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:00:54pm

re: #390 albusteve

we also need more domestic firecracker production

Yet no one considers pie. Doesn't anyone care about pie any more?

397 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:01:14pm

Top of the hour at CNN: The killer at the recruiting office is a convert to Islam who might have gone to Yemen.

398 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:01:30pm

re: #372 wrenchwench

Do you have quick access to your (what I would call) definitive post on abortion from a couple of years back?

Not only do I not have quick access to it -- I don't even remember making it! What definitive post?

399 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:01:31pm

re: #384 justabill

Can moderators identify themselves? I'd be curious to know...

EVERY single person thinks she or he is a 'moderate'. NOBODY thinks that they are an extremists. EVERYONE cannot understand why everyone else doesn't have the same exact views that they do!

400 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:01:54pm

re: #383 ilzito guacamolito

I heard Rush make a pretty profound statement yesterday, but was unable to listen long enough to know if he borrowed it or it was his own. He said that Obama is spending money that hasn’t been earned yet by people who haven’t been born yet. Sort of sums it up, doesn’t it?
Later he read from a piece in the English version of Pravda that sums everything up very nicely as well. Even the Russians get it.
Yuri Bezmenov was right.

Apologies if I am redundant by reposting someone else’s post.

Have a good rest of the day!

How come in the first 4 hours of Rush this week, he hasn't mentioned the Tiller murder? I rarely listen to him, but I am this week, to see what he has to say about this, nothing yet.

401 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:01:57pm

re: #396 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet no one considers pie. Doesn't anyone care about pie any more?

math bores me to tears...sorry

402 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:02:21pm

re: #356 zombie

Abortion is legal because the fetus is not considered a "legal person" and therefore you cannot murder a non-person. Consequently, the intentions of the woman seeking the abortion trump the non-person. Yet, under the US law, any human born live is a legal person, and therefore protected by the US Constitution. Now as it happens, some small number of human fetuses who were subjected to late term abortions managed to be born live. By US law, these humans are legal persons. Yet many of them are left to die. That is murder, and it happens under the cover of late-term abortion procedures.

All that aside, abortion is always killing. No two ways about that. If the fetus was not alive, it need not be aborted as it would miscarry anyway.

Just taking it to the logical conclusion, you see.

403 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:02:21pm

re: #396 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet no one considers pie. Doesn't anyone care about pie any more?

If my gut is any indication, I care deeply about pie.

404 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:02:37pm

Radicalized on his trip to Yemen.

405 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:02:38pm

re: #345 Charles

Am I "sure" that all women are having late term abortions for medical reasons? No, I'm not sure, and I didn't say I was sure. However, there are strict rules laws in states that allow these procedures, intended to make sure that medical reasons are involved. Those are facts.

I seriously doubt that there are many women who casually decide to abort a baby, after carrying it nearly to term. If you think there are, let's see your statistics.

A technicality, I know. But an important one.

406 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:02:47pm

re: #388 buzzsawmonkey

When you're in hock, you're in hock all the way
From the day you are born 'til they plant you to stay...

Debt's right.

407 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:02:47pm

re: #391 ilzito guacamolito

Womb to the tomb.

Naturally, in my high school, we had a West Side Story production.

Thinking out loud; I wonder if in current school productions, they've Bowdlerized the line from the "When You're a Jet" song that went:

The Sharks'll stay clear
'cause every Puerto Rican's
a lousy chicken

I suppose it might survive, since of course mutual ethnic animosity is part and parcel of the plot. But I wonder if the pressures of PC are too much.

408 NonNativeTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:02:47pm

re: #345 Charles

The thing about late term abortions is that the baby can be delivered
and be viable without being aborted to save the life or protect
the health of the mother. In fact, delivering the baby is likely not
anymore stressful on the woman's body than aborting.

409 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #401 albusteve

math bores me to tears...sorry

You really take the cake. You deserve whatever your just desserts are gonna be.

410 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:03:17pm

Addendum to my #393, also from Wiki:

When Brown was hanged after his attempt to start a slave rebellion in 1859, church bells rang, minute guns were fired, large memorial meetings took place throughout the North, and famous writers such as Emerson and Thoreau joined many Northerners in praising Brown.

Wow.

411 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:03:25pm

re: #387 zombie

and why many in his camp don't think he didn't anything wrong.
=
and why many in his camp don't think he did anything wrong.

PIMF

412 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:03:27pm

re: #404 MandyManners

Radicalized on his trip to Yemen.

You mean, like, by the in-flight movie?

/

413 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:04:17pm

re: #412 Occasional Reader

You mean, like, by the in-flight movie?

/

On-the-fly radicalization

414 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:04:20pm

re: #408 NonNativeTexan

The thing about late term abortions is that the baby can be delivered
and be viable without being aborted to save the life or protect
the health of the mother. In fact, delivering the baby is likely not
anymore stressful on the woman's body than aborting.

Most of the babies in question have conditions that are incompatible with life. That's why the parents are seeking a late term abortion in the first place.

415 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:04:22pm

re: #392 Walter L. Newton

religion, churches and the like is a HUGE business in this country,,,lots of property, lots of wealth...you don't bite the hand that feeds you...you should see the vast mega compound in my own little village where I grew up

416 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:04:37pm

re: #412 Occasional Reader

You mean, like, by the in-flight movie?

/

No, by the line at the restroom.

417 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:04:37pm

re: #396 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet no one considers pie. Doesn't anyone care about pie any more?

Why have π when one can have ρ.

418 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:05:02pm

re: #387 zombie

Killing someone to prevent them from killing someone else is not considered immoral in our society. Or even illegal. Policemen do it all the time when they shoot a criminal who has drawn a weapon. We do it in warfare. And even a homeowner in the US has the right to shoot an intruder he believes is about to kill the homeowner or his family.

In fact, it's considered immoral by our code of ethics to allow a rampaging killer to continue killing, if you have the opportunity to stop him.

Considering all this, and considering that Roeder apparently really and truly believed that "abortion is murder," then one can see how this logic led to his actions, and why many in his camp don't think he didn't anything wrong.

Well, you see, I always thought there was a difference in killing someone in personal self-defense or someone who is committing a crime and harming others vs. just murdering someone who is living his life legally, but immorally in my view. The latter is not acceptable, or moral, or legal, I don't believe.

In Tiller's case, what he was doing was perfectly legal under our laws. I don't happen to like it; and in my mind he was indeed killing; but what he was doing was legal. I could not break the law of the land and kill him without it being illegal, AND immoral.

All I can do is support a "pro-life" choice for folks as best as I am able to do it legally.

419 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:05:04pm

re: #404 MandyManners

Radicalized on his trip to Yemen.

I once womanized on a trip to Barbados ,, does that count ?

420 subsailor68  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:05:22pm

re: #412 Occasional Reader

You mean, like, by the in-flight movie?

/

Well, the movie was Sheiks on a Plane.

;-)

421 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:05:27pm

re: #285 Charles

I've read posts on conservative underground and conservative cave saying that Tiller got what he deserved.

422 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:05:32pm

re: #387 zombie

Are you saying that you believe Roeder was justified?

423 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:05:50pm

re: #381 unrealizedviewpoint

At $5000 each, Tiller earned millions of dollars yearly performing late term abortions, his specialty. It's hard for me not to think of this man in any other way.

Assuming you could prove those exaggerated numbers that come from Randall and others, what's your point ? He was providing a legal medical service for a fee and many women have complimented him on his compassion in a tragic period. Should Catholics protest and stalk doctors that perform vasectomies for a fee because of their faith.

424 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:09pm

re: #393 doppelganglander

As just as his cause was, Brown deserved to be hanged. The part in bold just shows how politics never really changes.

Oh, I agree. My point was that just because something is legal doesn't make it moral. There are plenty of people using legal means, working through the system to oppose abortion. Murdering people like Tiller is wrong.

425 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:15pm

re: #415 albusteve

religion, churches and the like is a HUGE business in this country,,,lots of property, lots of wealth...you don't bite the hand that feeds you...you should see the vast mega compound in my own little village where I grew up

No kidding. And as long as those things remain more important than the anything else, credibility will always suffer.

426 justabill  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:20pm

re: #399 sattv4u2

EVERY single person thinks she or he is a 'moderate'. NOBODY thinks that they are an extremists. EVERYONE cannot understand why everyone else doesn't have the same exact views that they do!

This is one of those posts where a / might have been usefully. In any event I'll assume you are serious. I was looking for a moderator, not a moderate. I was looking to talk to someone about one of my posts, which was deleted. Probably judged to be obscene, although I think I've seen worse language here. Really, just wanted feedback on where the line was and if my occasional tap dancing on over the line is in any way endangering my account...

427 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:25pm

re: #383 ilzito guacamolito

I heard Rush make a pretty profound statement yesterday, but was unable to listen long enough to know if he borrowed it or it was his own. He said that Obama is spending money that hasn’t been earned yet by people who haven’t been born yet. Sort of sums it up, doesn’t it?
Later he read from a piece in the English version of Pravda that sums everything up very nicely as well. Even the Russians get it.
Yuri Bezmenov was right.

Apologies if I am redundant by reposting someone else’s post.

Have a good rest of the day!

Oh, for Pete's sake.

Pravda's now a source for Rush Limbaugh?

428 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:31pm

re: #393 doppelganglander

Yes, and it was opposed through legal means, up to and including war declared by the U.S. government.

Well... eventually.

Of course, if by some bizarre Star Trek-esque turn of fate, I found myself transported back in time to 1790, in command of a modern U.S. warship (maybe with a couple of Seal teams aboard), and crossing paths with a slave ship, I'd have no trouble making the decision to seize the ship and free the slaves. Even though I'd be breaking the law in force at the time.

429 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:34pm

re: #419 sattv4u2

I once womanized on a trip to Barbados ,, does that count ?

Jamaica?

430 HippieforLife  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:43pm

re: #318 avanti

I wouldn't down ding you for stating your point of view. However, many people do believe that abortion is equal to murder. Even though it is legal not all are in favor.

That being said, I myself am pro-choice. I do not feel that I have any right to tell another woman that she can or can't have an abortion. This is a private matter. I cannot justify this brutal murder.

But, make no mistake, abortion does end a life, that is the purpose.

431 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:06:50pm

re: #420 subsailor68

Well, the movie was Sheiks on a Plane.

;-)

"Enough is enough! I have HAD it with these mothafuckin' sheiks on this mothafuckin' plane!"

432 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:07:02pm

re: #419 sattv4u2

I once womanized on a trip to Barbados ,, does that count ?

You package is being prepared, will go out Wed. or no later than Thursday.

433 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:07:24pm

re: #420 subsailor68

Well, the movie was Sheiks on a Plane.

;-)

I just had a bizarre synaptic flash based on the movie "There Will Be Blood", as if Daniel Day Lewis were to say, "I drink your milk, Sheik!"

/yes, there's no limit to my insanity

434 NonNativeTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:07:33pm

re: #414 doppelganglander

If that is the case, I do not know if it is, be honest about it and
do not always bring up the health of the mother. ( i am not
saying you bring up the health of the mother issue)

435 brookly red  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:07:44pm

re: #387 zombie

re: "Considering all this, and considering that Roeder apparently really and truly believed that "abortion is murder," then one can see how this logic led to his actions, and why many in his camp don't think he didn't anything wrong."

The jury selection process is going to be a mutha.

436 opnion  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:07:48pm

re: #404 MandyManners

Radicalized on his trip to Yemen.

He apparently went there on a Somali passport to learn Jihad, not the inner struggle thing though.
He must have been radicalized before he got there. A look at his local Mosque might be in order.

437 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:07:50pm

re: #422 Kenneth

Are you saying that you believe Roeder was justified?

Zomie clearly did NOT say that

The dead one clearly stated

considering that Roeder apparently really and truly believed that "abortion is murder," then one can see how this logic led to his actions, and why many in his camp don't think he didn't anything wrong.

438 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:07:58pm

re: #425 Walter L. Newton

No kidding. And as long as those things remain more important than the anything else, credibility will always suffer.

Jesus requires no cred...pass the plate

439 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:08:09pm

re: #432 Walter L. Newton

You package is being prepared, will go out Wed. or no later than Thursday.

Thanks Walter

440 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:08:24pm

re: #427 Charles

Oh, for Pete's sake.

Pravda's now a source for Rush Limbaugh?

Also saw it in the KGB monthly newsletter. Gotta be true.

441 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:08:26pm

re: #397 MandyManners

He entered Yemen with a fake Somali passport.re: #404 MandyManners

Radicalized Oppressed on his trip to Yemen.

FTFY!

442 aggieann  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:08:42pm

re: #379 buzzsawmonkey

That means everyone must join in a concertina-ed effort.


Accordian to some in the Middle East, Jews harp on this.

443 subsailor68  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:09:05pm

re: #427 Charles

Oh, for Pete's sake.

Pravda's now a source for Rush Limbaugh?

I'm not a fan of Rush, but I certainly hope not. If that's the version I skimmed the other day, the writer refers to "Senator" Barney Frank, a pretty basic mistake for someone trying to demonstrate expertise on the American political/economic situation.

444 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:09:12pm

re: #427 Charles

Oh, for Pete's sake.

Pravda's now a source for Rush Limbaugh?

OK, now we've seen it all.

445 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:09:24pm

re: #442 aggieann

Accordian to some in the Middle East, Jews harp on this.

It's all spoon-fed tripe.

446 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:09:27pm

re: #426 justabill

This is one of those posts where a / might have been usefully. In any event I'll assume you are serious. I was looking for a moderator, not a moderate. I was looking to talk to someone about one of my posts, which was deleted. Probably judged to be obscene, although I think I've seen worse language here. Really, just wanted feedback on where the line was and if my occasional tap dancing on over the line is in any way endangering my account...

MAN ,, I need to clean my screen ,,, SORRY ,, I REALLY thought you said "MODERATE"

Hell , and I gave such a thoughtful respnse !

447 lobo91  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:09:43pm

re: #404 MandyManners

Radicalized on his trip to Yemen.

Not likely. Nobody but an Islamic radical (other than aid workers and the like) is interested in going to Yemen these days.

448 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:09:44pm

re: #427 Charles

Oh, for Pete's sake.

Pravda's now a source for Rush Limbaugh?

It's pretty sad when the Russians have to warn Americans about Marxism. The world has truly turned upside down.

(slaps forehead)

449 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:09:47pm

re: #427 Charles

Oh, for Pete's sake.

Pravda's now a source for Rush Limbaugh?

Well it IS ironic to be lectured on capitalism by Russians. Embarassing, too.

450 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:10:03pm
451 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:10:11pm

re: #435 brookly red

The jury selection process is going to be a mutha.

Oh my, hadn't even thought of that little detail yet.
Maybe he'll plead guilty and we can skip that part?

452 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:10:11pm

re: #427 Charles

Pravda's now a source for Rush Limbaugh?

Say... when did Mr. Spock start sporting that natty goatee?

453 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:10:20pm

re: #408 NonNativeTexan

The thing about late term abortions is that the baby can be delivered
and be viable without being aborted to save the life or protect
the health of the mother. In fact, delivering the baby is likely not
anymore stressful on the woman's body than aborting.

And if the "baby" is non viable? Dead in the womb, or disfigured/malformed to the point that it would survive for only a very short and very painful amount of time outside the womb? What then?

454 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:10:35pm

re: #292 drcordell

No, a "hate f*ck" is not rape. Not sure where you got that definition from. A "hate f*ck" is having consensual sex with someone who you dislike personally, but are attracted to physically. It has nothing to do with forcing yourself upon a woman.

Commonly called a "Grudge F*ck."

455 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:10:50pm

re: #448 Ward Cleaver

It's pretty sad when the Russians have to warn Americans about Marxism. The world has truly turned upside down.

(slaps forehead)

And the Chinese warning us about screwing up capitilism!

456 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:10:59pm

re: #408 NonNativeTexan

The thing about late term abortions is that the baby can be delivered
and be viable without being aborted to save the life or protect
the health of the mother. In fact, delivering the baby is likely not
anymore stressful on the woman's body than aborting.

How do we handle a dead late term fetus, or one with only a brain stem, or fatally conjoined ? What pro life position does it serve to carry a dead fetus to term, or one that will die in days perhaps in pain.

457 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:11:54pm

re: #428 Occasional Reader

Well... eventually.

Of course, if by some bizarre Star Trek-esque turn of fate, I found myself transported back in time to 1790, in command of a modern U.S. warship (maybe with a couple of Seal teams aboard), and crossing paths with a slave ship, I'd have no trouble making the decision to seize the ship and free the slaves. Even though I'd be breaking the law in force at the time.

Sure, I understand that. But just like the Underground Railroad, it would have been a property crime. No one would have to be murdered (although that could certainly happen, given modern weaponry).

I'd like to go back to 1787 and hire a CPA for Thomas Jefferson. If he hadn't been so financially strapped, he might have supported the abolition of slavery in the Constitution.

458 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:12:02pm

China, Russia, and even Europe cannot wait for America to fail. They are absolutely giddy over the prospect. Never mind that if America fails they will follow shortly thereafter. Take their input on our economy with a grain of salt.

459 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:13:13pm

re: #456 avanti

How do we handle a dead late term fetus, or one with only a brain stem, or fatally conjoined ? What pro life position does it serve to carry a dead fetus to term, or one that will die in days perhaps in pain.

If there is a general ban on abortion, this is one of the circumstances I think that should always remain legal. (The baby has NO chance of survival outside of the womb) Of course, this is also the circumstance for which Tiller specialized.

460 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:13:26pm

re: #456 avanti

How do we handle a dead late term fetus, or one with only a brain stem, or fatally conjoined ? What pro life position does it serve to carry a dead fetus to term, or one that will die in days perhaps in pain.

I think he was referring to the health of the mother.

461 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:13:33pm

re: #450 Tamron

Olmsted is an anti-vaxxer.

462 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:13:41pm

If you see a known mob hit-man sitting beside you in Church, are you morally or legally justified in pulling out a gun and shooting him dead?

463 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:13:51pm

Operation Rescue and Scott Roeder obviously have some sort of connection. This bit of info adds context to the Randall Terry "Don't back down" video. I see this connection as analogous to the PETA - Animal Liberation Front connection. One manages Public Relations, while the other performs terrorist acts. Operation Rescue needs to be investigated vigorously.

464 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:13:55pm

re: #383 ilzito guacamolito

Ia piece in the English version of Pravda that sums everything up very nicely as well. Even the Russians get it.
Yuri Bezmenov was right.

First, the population was dumbed down through a politicized and substandard education system based on pop culture, rather then the classics. Americans know more about their favorite TV dramas then the drama in DC that directly affects their lives. They care more for their "right" to choke down a McDonalds burger or a BurgerKing burger than for their constitutional rights.

Ouch! Gotta admit - that does sting a bit.

465 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:14:14pm

re: #423 avanti

Assuming you could prove those exaggerated numbers that come from Randall and others, what's your point ? He was providing a legal medical service for a fee and many women have complimented him on his compassion in a tragic period. Should Catholics protest and stalk doctors that perform vasectomies for a fee because of their faith.

There's many claims that he broke laws.

Laws don't make what he did moral nor right.

Performing a vasectomy is not the taking of life.

466 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:14:26pm

re: #462 Spare O'Lake

If you see a known mob hit-man sitting beside you in Church, are you morally or legally justified in pulling out a gun and shooting him dead?

No.

Next question?

467 opnion  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:14:35pm

re: #456 avanti

How do we handle a dead late term fetus, or one with only a brain stem, or fatally conjoined ? What pro life position does it serve to carry a dead fetus to term, or one that will die in days perhaps in pain.

Maybe I'm getting a little off of point, but what would your attitude be toward the survivor of a botched abortion? Should medical care be administered?

468 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:14:41pm

re: #437 sattv4u2

Let zombie speak for itself, please. Rhetorical arguments were advanced which seem to support the idea that the murder of Tiller was justified:

Killing someone to prevent them from killing someone else is not considered immoral in our society.

Therefore it is fair of me to ask whether zombie believes Roeder was justified.

469 txlady  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:15:00pm

This is way off the topic but I just saw it.

Rep. John McHugh is Obama's nominee for Army secretary

He’s a stooge and potentially a dangerous one

"McHugh had a career in local and state government, working for the Watertown, N.Y., city manager and then for a state senator in Albany, before winning election to the New York Senate in 1984. He specialized in dairy issues -- indeed, his congressional home page still calls him "a champion of dairy farmers," protecting their price supports."

No experience


But

Dig in to the history and you find a crumb

"McHugh is also a member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, which is responsible for overseeing activities of the U.S. Intelligence Community. Many aspects of the committee’s work are classified for reasons of national security.
It’s currently chaired by Silvestre Reyes."


"Reyes was a key player in the 109th Congress because of his Immigration and Border Patrol experience. He was instrumental in leading the opposition to the House immigration proposal proposed by James Sensenbrenner, H.R. 4437. Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi selected Reyes to present and lead the debate on a Democratic substitute to replace the Sensenbrenner legislation, which was voted down on a party line vote."

"In a December 2006 interview with Congressional Quarterly, Reyes said that al-Qaeda, an exclusively Sunni group, was composed of "both" Sunni and Shi'te members. He then instead asserted al-Qaeda is "predominantly probably Shi'ite." He also avoided answering the question whether Hezbollah, a Shi'ite organization, was Sunni or Shi'ite, answering now famously ""Hezbollah. Uh, Hezbollah? ... Why do you ask me these questions at 5 o'clock? Can I answer in Spanish? Do you speak Spanish?" Reyes, who had been on the Armed Services Committee and been a ranking member of the Select Intelligence Committee for a number of years prior to the interview, was widely criticized for his display of ignorance.[6]"


* all the quotes come straight out of WIKI

470 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:15:09pm

re: #462 Spare O'Lake

If you see a known mob hit-man sitting beside you in Church, are you morally or legally justified in pulling out a gun and shooting him dead?

no but you can shoot off his belt buckle....perfectly acceptable

471 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:15:26pm

re: #398 zombie

Not only do I not have quick access to it -- I don't even remember making it! What definitive post?

OK, maybe it seemed more "definitive" at the time, after all, it was a banned topic! But here it is.

472 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

It's easy to discipline church members when you're the only church in town. In his first letter to the members of the church at Corinth, St. Paul advised the church to kick out a reprobate member for a serious sexual offense (sleeping with his own mother). In his second letter, hearing that the reprobate had repented his bad behavior, Paul told the church to let him back in again.

The Roman Catholics practice excommunication for serious offenses. Other churches have methods of excommunication as well. The Mennonites practice "shunning". If you're in a small Greek village, and the Greek Orthodox church is the only game in town, excommunication has a more severe impact on you than excommunication in a big American city. If a church kicks you out, you can walk down the street to the next church. You can even start up your own church, as Ron Hubbard did.

So excommunication is ineffective as a tool of discipline in the U.S. Christian community.

473 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:16:03pm

re: #386 Occasional Reader

Perhaps at your congregation, you could enlist other Jews to Harp on about it.


(okay, maybe it's supposed to be jaw-harp?... poetic license, ect.)

I play the jew's harp. That is, I'm Jewish and I play the harmonica (aka "blues harp.")

474 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:16:25pm

re: #461 MandyManners

Olmsted is an anti-vaxxer.

The source is anti-vax, but someone making $29m because of his conflict of interest is still unethical (and possibly illegal).

475 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:16:32pm

re: #428 Occasional Reader

Well... eventually.

Of course, if by some bizarre Star Trek-esque turn of fate, I found myself transported back in time to 1790, in command of a modern U.S. warship (maybe with a couple of Seal teams aboard), and crossing paths with a slave ship, I'd have no trouble making the decision to seize the ship and free the slaves. Even though I'd be breaking the law in force at the time.

Prime Directive, dude. No can do.

Have you ever read and What-if-story? Churchill wrote a great one having the South win the war.

476 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:16:49pm

re: #468 Kenneth

Let zombie speak for itself, please. Rhetorical arguments were advanced which seem to support the idea that the murder of Tiller was justified:


Therefore it is fair of me to ask whether zombie believes Roeder was justified.


Killing someone to prevent them from killing someone else is not considered immoral in our society.

Out of context. Add the rest of it (the examples)

And since when has it been verbotten here to answer a question posed to someone else?

477 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:16:54pm

re: #470 albusteve

worth stealing so I did

478 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:17:28pm

re: #427 Charles

Exactly. Even if what it says is true... You cant spend decades trashing it as a propoganda outlet for a totalitarian state, and then turn around and praise and quote it when they say something you agree with once.

Every once in a blue moon WND, kceb Nnelg, or Luap Nor say something I agree with. I'd never use any of them as a source.

479 Racer X  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:17:29pm

re: #464 Russkilitlover

First, the population was dumbed down through a politicized and substandard education system based on pop culture, rather then the classics. Americans know more about their favorite TV dramas then the drama in DC that directly affects their lives. They care more for their "right" to choke down a McDonalds burger or a BurgerKing burger than for their constitutional rights.

Yes this does sting - but it is absolutely true. There lots of smart kids in America but the masses are dumb as dirt. IMO

*See Nov 4th, 2008.

480 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:17:48pm

re: #470 albusteve

no but you can shoot off his belt buckle....perfectly acceptable

I see you've taken the Occasional Reader Pistol Self-Defense Course... excellent. Another satisfied customer!

481 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:17:53pm

re: #463 NukeAtomrod

As I noted above, Roeder was busted with bomb materials in '96, and Sullenger was busted for conspiring to plant a bomb in '88. I doubt this is just a coincidence.

482 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:18:04pm

re: #476 sattv4u2

Killing someone to prevent them from killing someone else is not considered immoral in our society.

Out of context. Add the rest of it (the examples)

And since when has it been verbotten here to answer a question posed to someone else?

it's now before the Rules Committee....

483 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:18:19pm

re: #430 HippieforLife

I wouldn't down ding you for stating your point of view. However, many people do believe that abortion is equal to murder. Even though it is legal not all are in favor.

That being said, I myself am pro-choice. I do not feel that I have any right to tell another woman that she can or can't have an abortion. This is a private matter. I cannot justify this brutal murder.

But, make no mistake, abortion does end a life, that is the purpose.

No question it ends a potential life, but it is not murder. War ends actual lives, as do legal executions, but those are not murder either.
We have extreme pro lifers that would call a rape victim that takes the morning after pill a murderer. We can't casually call folks murderers or recite "Tiller the baby killer" without being part of the hysteria that resulted in his murder.

484 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:18:58pm

re: #475 Russkilitlover

Prime Directive, dude. No can do.

Have you ever read and What-if-story? Churchill wrote a great one having the South win the war.

Not really a "what if", but this is one of my favorite little known "facts" about the Civil War.

485 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:19:02pm

re: #474 Ward Cleaver

The source is anti-vax, but someone making $29m because of his conflict of interest is still unethical (and possibly illegal).

I would want to know a lot more about it before reaching that conclusion. If Olmsted is the source, he's clearly spinning to make it look as skeezy as possible.

Oh, and what kind of nut would be opposed to a vaccine to prevent infant diarrhea, the number one killer of infants in the developing world?

486 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:19:04pm

re: #482 albusteve

it's now before the Rules Committee....

I have a plain manilla envelope stuffed with Benjamins!

487 John Neverbend  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:19:10pm

re: #429 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Jamaica?

No, she consented.

488 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:19:13pm

re: #448 Ward Cleaver

It's pretty sad when the Russians have to warn Americans about Marxism. The world has truly turned upside down.

(slaps forehead)

Why? Are they not experts on the subject?

489 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:19:19pm

re: #480 Occasional Reader

I see you've taken the Occasional Reader Pistol Self-Defense Course... excellent. Another satisfied customer!

re: #480 Occasional Reader

I see you've taken the Occasional Reader Pistol Self-Defense Course... excellent. Another satisfied customer!

I'm working on the trigger finger shot next

490 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:19:25pm

re: #456 avanti

There is absolutely no objection to medical intervention to deliver a dead fetus from the pro-life position. The problem, and perhaps it has eluded you, is with the intentional killing of live healthy fetuses.

It is rather bizarre of you to use the example of delivering a dead fetus to justify the killing a live one. Is that how logic & morality work in liberal-land?

491 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:19:27pm

re: #408 NonNativeTexan

The thing about late term abortions is that the baby can be delivered
and be viable without being aborted to save the life or protect
the health of the mother. In fact, delivering the baby is likely not
anymore stressful on the woman's body than aborting.

In many cases, this is simply not true. Check, for instance, the comments related to hydrocephalic fetuses in a prior topic about the murder of this doctor.

492 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:03pm

re: #453 Slumbering Behemoth

And if the "baby" is non viable? Dead in the womb, or disfigured/malformed to the point that it would survive for only a very short and very painful amount of time outside the womb? What then?

I have a relative who faced this exact situation - a severly deformed baby that would not have a long life outside the womb. Her faith and religion was such that she could not "terminate" the baby - it was "in God's hands." She had the baby, it never came off a respirator, lived for about 3 months and then died. She insists today that she did the right thing.

493 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:30pm

re: #422 Kenneth

Are you saying that you believe Roeder was justified?

No, quite the opposite; since I don't believe abortion is the same thing as murder, I think there is no jutification for Roeder's actions.

I'm just pointing out that to many (not all -- many) folks who do firmly believe that abortion is murder, there is a firm logical path from that stance to justifying "stopping the murderer."

494 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:37pm

Code Pink is responsible for the Arkansas soldiers' murder, too?

495 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:38pm

re: #486 sattv4u2

I have a plain manilla envelope stuffed with Benjamins!

we'll certainly consider his testimony

496 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:39pm

re: #450 Tamron

CDC Vaccine Advisor Pockets $29 Million By Using CDC to Promote Vaccine That He Invented


(There's no self-serving conflict of interest here -- move along...)

This crap shouldn't be posted here. The entire basis of the article in "naturalnews" is another article that appeared on ageofautism.com, the self-described "daily web newspaper of the autism epidemic." It's a kook site, most of which is dedicated to peddling dangerous lies about vaccinations and autism.

Did a doctor inappropriately rake in millions of dollars by pushing a vaccine that he invented? Maybe, I don't know. But as i said in my spinoff link comment, I'm not going to waste any effort looking into such an allegation just because some kook antivax site said it was so.

497 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:43pm

re: #480 Occasional Reader

I see you've taken the Occasional Reader Pistol Self-Defense Course... excellent. Another satisfied customer!

If you miss, and shoot him in the d&ck, I am NOT hanging out with you. That is NOT cool.

/

498 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:54pm

re: #462 Spare O'Lake

If you see a known mob hit-man sitting beside you in Church, are you morally or legally justified in pulling out a gun and shooting him dead?

No but was Al Pacino in that movie?

499 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:20:56pm

re: #472 quickjustice

It's easy to discipline church members when you're the only church in town. In his first letter to the members of the church at Corinth, St. Paul advised the church to kick out a reprobate member for a serious sexual offense (sleeping with his own mother). In his second letter, hearing that the reprobate had repented his bad behavior, Paul told the church to let him back in again.

The Roman Catholics practice excommunication for serious offenses. Other churches have methods of excommunication as well. The Mennonites practice "shunning". If you're in a small Greek village, and the Greek Orthodox church is the only game in town, excommunication has a more severe impact on you than excommunication in a big American city. If a church kicks you out, you can walk down the street to the next church. You can even start up your own church, as Ron Hubbard did.

So excommunication is ineffective as a tool of discipline in the U.S. Christian community.

If it were common, it would be a deterrent. If a person knew that no matter where he/she walked in, there was a possibility that they could be removed because of some infractions, it would help. The fact of the matter it is rarely used at all, and most congregations don't even have a process in place to instigate it if needed.

I don't agree with you.

500 drcordell  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:21:16pm

re: #355 Dianna

I find rape completely abhorrent, and anyone who doesn't is a monster. My previous comment simply pointed out the fact that you are taking internet comments entirely too seriously. Of course someone made rape jokes on a thread about "hate f*cking." Just like some idiot douchebag inevitably turns any open comment thread that mentions Israel into a debate about the protocols of the elders of zion. The point being, unmoderated internet comments are a cesspool. Is this shocking to anyone?

501 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:21:17pm

re: #467 opnion

Maybe I'm getting a little off of point, but what would your attitude be toward the survivor of a botched abortion? Should medical care be administered?

Yes, and that is the law in all 50 states. Once viable outside the womb, all care must be provided.

502 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:21:26pm

re: #449 Russkilitlover

Well it IS ironic to be lectured on capitalism by Russians. Embarassing, too.

The author, Mat Rodina, is a Russian nationalist with a history of writing racist articles for the European hate magazine Takimag.

503 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:21:39pm

re: #494 Ben Hur

Code Pink is responsible for the Arkansas soldiers' murder, too?

I tried that one out on the logic students, it fell on its face.

/I really don't wonder why

504 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:22:12pm

re: #497 OldLineTexan

If you miss, and shoot him in the d&ck, I am NOT hanging out with you. That is NOT cool.

/

Yeah, if you go around doing that, you're no better than the Chinese.

(Gotta love Cartman!)

505 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:22:31pm

re: #492 Russkilitlover

It was her choice to make, and certainly a painful and difficult one I'm sure. My heart goes out to her. In a perfect world, no expectant mother should have to be in that position.

506 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:22:47pm

re: #462 Spare O'Lake

If you see a known mob hit-man sitting beside you in Church, are you morally or legally justified in pulling out a gun and shooting him dead?

Good point! And what if the dead man just happened to be an innocent look-alike for the actual individual in question?
.

507 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:23:24pm

re: #497 OldLineTexan

If you miss, and shoot him in the d&ck

No way. I would never intentionally harm an innocent animal, including a duck.

508 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:23:33pm

Last update - 22:08 02/06/2009

Obama makes surprise appearance at Barak meeting in U.S.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Memo to the Israelis: Nothing the President does is a surprise or impromptu!

509 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:23:40pm

Mat Rodina also has a blog, and the current post at the top is an ugly homophobic rant about Western perversion.

510 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:23:55pm

re: #492 Russkilitlover

I have a relative who faced this exact situation - a severly deformed baby that would not have a long life outside the womb. Her faith and religion was such that she could not "terminate" the baby - it was "in God's hands." She had the baby, it never came off a respirator, lived for about 3 months and then died. She insists today that she did the right thing.

I have a friend who had a perfectly normal baby, and at some point in his life, he was severely injured in an accident, and is now mentally and physically disabled. His severe disabilities happened to occur after he was born, instead of while in the womb.

If incapacitation of the baby (not death, but disability status) is legal to allow abortion of a baby, what should happen to this young man?

511 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:00pm

Thats who Rush Limbaugh is quoting with approval.

512 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:14pm

re: #427 Charles

Apparently, the English language version of Pravda yesterday condemned America's rapid descent into socialism. It referenced Obama's takeover, first of the banks, then of the auto companies.

I don't know yet whether the takeovers are permanent, but if they are, I'd characterize them as bad capitalism or fascism, rather than as socialism. Bad capitalism refers to crony capitalism, where a ruling elite uses its inside track with the government to line its own pockets. There's a fair argument that we have that now.

513 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:14pm

re: #392 Walter L. Newton

The broad problem I am mentioning is what I have been mentioning all down thread. The lack of policing congregations. The New Testament gives Christians all the processes that enable a congregation to shun and disfellowship members who are discrediting the community.

Shunning and disfellowshipping is rarely practiced now a days, and it should be. If your congregation has people who are pro-groups like Operation Rescue, then maybe that community should consider correcting those folks or asking them to remove themselves from the community.

Maybe if Christian congregations would keep out the rabble like Randall Terry and those type of followers, then the church would have some credibility when they denounce acts such as this killiing.

Before then, hollow rhetoric.

My church actually practices church discipline, but it is usually set in motion by an incident, not a thought process. I don't know if I think it's appropriate to investigate the associations people have with other groups, but if the answer to that is yes, then maybe some ambitious person will go through the membership logs and cross-check to see whether people belong to radical anti-abortion groups...but that doesn't seem likely.

But I have to tell you, Walter, maybe I'm an oddball. I'm one of those people who wouldn't dream of screaming at a woman walking into a clinic, much less dream of harming clinic staff. When I think of a woman seeking an abortion, I think of a person who is probably desperate and afraid. I don't think "Baby-killing whore!" But then, I haven't led a sheltered, conventional life. (I'm in the music business, and I have seen a lot of things.) If I were inclined to say anything to such a woman, it would be to lovingly offer her an alternative way out, if I had the means. If she were to take it, wonderful - if not, that is her business and she would have my prayers, as would her child.

And that is the problem, as I see it, with the pro-life movement. So many of them seem to think, "Baby-killing whore!" Then they live lives filled with mistakes, and don't think twice about it.

What are these screamers doing to help?

I have too many of my own imperfections to negatively focus on those of others. I - seriously - probably disappoint Christ every single day. I think some people in the Christian community either never heard the story of their Lord with the prostitute, or have completely forgotten it.

That's the larger problem, to me. Addressing that would go a long way toward solving some problems.

514 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:16pm

re: #475 Russkilitlover

Of course, if by some bizarre Star Trek-esque turn of fate, I found myself transported back in time to 1790, in command of a modern U.S. warship (maybe with a couple of Seal teams aboard), and crossing paths with a slave ship, I'd have no trouble making the decision to seize the ship and free the slaves. Even though I'd be breaking the law in force at the time.


Prime Directive, dude. No can do.


The Prime Directive is more what you'd call "guidelines" than an actual directive.

515 opnion  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:16pm

re: #501 avanti

Yes, and that is the law in all 50 states. Once viable outside the womb, all care must be provided.

I agree with that. The reason that I asked is that the Live Infant Protection Act does not have universal support.
It seems to transcend the abortion issue.

516 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:33pm

re: #506 Tamron

Good point! And what if the dead man just happened to be an innocent look-alike for the actual individual in question?
.

Your "added condition" is not even necessary.

517 badger1970  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:41pm

re: #484 CIA Reject

It was the Union's superior weapon technology that held Stuart back.

518 brookly red  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:46pm

re: #451 KansasMom

Oh my, hadn't even thought of that little detail yet.
Maybe he'll plead guilty and we can skip that part?

No, IMO he wanted to make a point & his trial will be his soapbox. It is going to be hard to find 12 people (plus alternates) that don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

519 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:49pm

re: #483 avanti

No question it ends a potential life...

Not "ends" and not merely a "potential life"... It kills a life. Period.

Human life begins at conception, there is no scientific or biological definition of life that would contradict that. It is the legal opinion in the USA, that a "legal person" only exists after birth. The legal opinion does not speak to the issue of when life began.

520 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:57pm

re: #490 Kenneth

There is absolutely no objection to medical intervention to deliver a dead fetus from the pro-life position. The problem, and perhaps it has eluded you, is with the intentional killing of live healthy fetuses.

It is rather bizarre of you to use the example of delivering a dead fetus to justify the killing a live one. Is that how logic & morality work in liberal-land?

Why did you pick the dead fetus example out from the other fatally flawed examples I used. Charles me and others have posted tragic stories of women near term with fetuses with no chance of survival outside the womb, but you choose to ignore them.

521 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:24:57pm

re: #450 Tamron

This article is propaganda from a quack website that promotes anti-vaccination hysteria.

522 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:25:04pm

TIMES UP!...the posts have been repeating themselves for the last 400 entries, so time for a vote....
who won?....
is murder killing? or
is killing murder?

523 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #509 Charles

Mat Rodina also has a blog, and the current post at the top is an ugly homophobic rant about Western perversion.

Does he warn that we're "gonna have to answer to the Coca-Cola Company"?

524 Yashmak  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:25:45pm

re: #507 Occasional Reader

No way. I would never intentionally harm an innocent animal, including a duck.

ROFLCOPTER

525 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:25:54pm

re: #471 wrenchwench

OK, maybe it seemed more "definitive" at the time, after all, it was a banned topic! But here it is.

Wow, interesting.

I should have added the proviso that when there are medical reasons for late-term abortions, especially the health of the mother, then obviously they should be allowed.

526 quickjustice  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:25:55pm

re: #473 Mad Al-Jaffee

Jew's harp is an instrument separate from harmonica.

527 justabill  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:01pm

re: #502 Charles

If memory serves Ayn Rand grew up behind the iron curtain and while I don't agree with her 100%, she definitely was worth listening to with respect to capitalism...

528 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:07pm

All of this abortion talk reminds me of the Trey Parker/Matt Stone show "That's My Bush!" There was an episode where Bush was meeting with pro-life and pro-choice activists. The pro-life one was a guy who had survived an abortion and talked like Eric Cartman. Very disturbing, but hilarious.

529 zombie  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:15pm

re: #494 Ben Hur

Code Pink is responsible for the Arkansas soldiers' murder, too?

Partly, yes, in my view.

530 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:17pm

re: #522 albusteve

TIMES UP!...the posts have been repeating themselves for the last 400 entries, so time for a vote....
who won?....
is murder killing? or
is killing murder?

PRESENT

531 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:33pm

re: #507 Occasional Reader

No way. I would never intentionally harm an innocent animal, including a duck.

what if it was a known hit duck?

532 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:39pm

re: #507 Occasional Reader

No way. I would never intentionally harm an innocent animal, including a duck.

AFLAC!

533 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:46pm

re: #443 subsailor68

I'm not a fan of Rush, but I certainly hope not. If that's the version I skimmed the other day, the writer refers to "Senator" Barney Frank, a pretty basic mistake for someone trying to demonstrate expertise on the American political/economic situation.


I heard it, peripherally...I think he just found it remarkable that our media has practically swapped places with them.

534 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:26:54pm

re: #466 Occasional Reader

re: #462 Spare O'Lake

If you see a known mob hit-man sitting beside you in Church, are you morally or legally justified in pulling out a gun and shooting him dead?


No.

Next question?

No more questions.
Even if Tiller was a known professional murderer, no private citizen could reasonably believe that he had the right to judge and execute him - in a civilized society, that is.
It's just that simple.

535 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:27:16pm

re: #527 justabill

If memory serves Ayn Rand grew up behind the iron curtain and while I don't agree with her 100%, she definitely was worth listening to with respect to capitalism...

What does that have to do with Mat Rodina?

536 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:27:30pm

re: #521 Charles

This article is propaganda from a quack website that promotes anti-vaccination hysteria.

Yeah, I'd rather hear about it from a reputable source.

537 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:27:36pm

A top North Korean general and close advisor to the country's leader, Kim Jong-Il, has been named by U.S. and foreign intelligence agencies as a key figure in the production of high-quality counterfeit $100 bills, called supernotes, according to documents and interviews cited by The Washington Times.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Well how else do you expect them to pay for them missile test and the Nukes?

538 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: #501 avanti

Yes, and that is the law in all 50 states. Once viable outside the womb, all care must be provided.

Some qualification might be needed for that statement. I have seen, for example, emergency gravid hysterectomies, in which a woman's entire uterus is removed, fetus and all, because of extremely severe bleeding that would have killed both the woman and the fetus if the surgery wasn't performed immediately. Both times I saw this happen, the fetus was far too early along to have survived, even with the most aggressive neonatal ICU care imaginable. So, both times, the fetus was simply allowed to pass away naturally. They were deeply sad occasions. I don't think I'll ever forget either one.

539 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:27:42pm

re: #505 Slumbering Behemoth

It was her choice to make, and certainly a painful and difficult one I'm sure. My heart goes out to her. In a perfect world, no expectant mother should have to be in that position.

The most fascinating part, though, is that although we, in her extended family, were in agony and grief over the whole situation, the mother was serene, calm, and at peace. WE had the hard time with it, her faith got her through.

540 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:27:59pm

re: #501 avanti

Yes, and that is the law in all 50 states. Once viable outside the womb, all care must be provided.

Didn't FCBBHO vote against that law in Illinois?

541 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:28:00pm

re: #517 badger1970

If you say so, I wasn't there so I don't know. I did read the book a few years ago and found it quite fascinating.

542 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:28:16pm

re: #476 sattv4u2

It is not verboten, but I wanted to read zombie's answer, since provided. And yes, it was out of context, but that was because his long post contained several intentionally contradictory statements. I realize what zombie is doing: putting forward a series of arguments for a view point it disagrees with as a means of raising arguable points.

543 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:28:28pm

OK .... if this is true, now Obama is endangering the world and we may as well just admit it:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

544 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:28:31pm

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

[Link: www.ncregister.com...]

545 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:28:40pm

re: #519 Kenneth

Human life begins at conception, there is no scientific or biological definition of life that would contradict that.

Actually, I'd say the proposition that a zygote is a human life is a moral conclusion, that is not suspectible to scientific analysis. That is, science does not purport to answer the question of whether/at what point a fetus becomes a person.

546 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:28:43pm

re: #537 Nevergiveup

A top North Korean general and close advisor to the country's leader, Kim Jong-Il, has been named by U.S. and foreign intelligence agencies as a key figure in the production of high-quality counterfeit $100 bills, called supernotes, according to documents and interviews cited by The Washington Times.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Well how else do you expect them to pay for them missile test and the Nukes?

They've already maxed out all their stolen credit card numbers.

/and didn't even get the points

547 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:28:44pm

re: #535 Charles

What does that have to do with Mat Rodina?

Another reason to spout a nonsequitar and try to derail things?

548 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:29:04pm

re: #515 opnion

I agree with that. The reason that I asked is that the Live Infant Protection Act does not have universal support.
It seems to transcend the abortion issue.

As has been pointed out numerous times, the
Live Infant Protection Act was a back door attempt by pro lifers to limit legal abortions. The existing law already covered live births.
Charles gave us a heads up on that one just recently.

549 justabill  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:29:08pm

re: #535 Charles

What does that have to do with Mat Rodina?


Perhaps I should have replied to the origional post...

re: #449 Russkilitlover

Well it IS ironic to be lectured on capitalism by Russians. Embarassing, too.

550 lobo91  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:29:08pm

re: #512 quickjustice

Apparently, the English language version of Pravda yesterday condemned America's rapid descent into socialism. It referenced Obama's takeover, first of the banks, then of the auto companies.

I don't know yet whether the takeovers are permanent, but if they are, I'd characterize them as bad capitalism or fascism, rather than as socialism. Bad capitalism refers to crony capitalism, where a ruling elite uses its inside track with the government to line its own pockets. There's a fair argument that we have that now.

Ronald Reagan once pointed out that nothing is as permanent as a temporary government program, and he was right.

The feds "temporarily" took over AMTRAK somewhere around 1970, and it was supposed to repay the taxpayers in about 5 years.

Sound familiar?

551 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:29:18pm

re: #543 _RememberTonyC

OK .... if this is true, now Obama is endangering the world and we may as well just admit it:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Irans concerns are legitimate but ours are not?

552 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:29:20pm

re: #502 Charles

The author, Mat Rodina, is a Russian nationalist with a history of writing racist articles for the European hate magazine Takimag.

Most interesting. Just did a quick look at Taki, and look at who I found as contributors for it:

Pat Buchanan
Paul Belien
Scott McConnell

And a bunch more. There's an amazing number of these who also contribute to VDARE.

553 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:29:22pm

re: #543 _RememberTonyC

That's even more worrisome than the gas pipeline between Iran and Pakistan

554 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:29:52pm

re: #522 albusteve

TIMES UP!...the posts have been repeating themselves for the last 400 entries, so time for a vote....
who won?....
is murder killing? or
is killing murder?

I abstain, courteously.

555 CIA Reject  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:30:14pm

BBIAW

556 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:30:18pm

re: #531 albusteve

what if it was a known hit duck?

He's been known to drake his victims with gunfire.

557 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:30:23pm

re: #537 Nevergiveup

A top North Korean general and close advisor to the country's leader, Kim Jong-Il, has been named by U.S. and foreign intelligence agencies as a key figure in the production of high-quality counterfeit $100 bills, called supernotes, according to documents and interviews cited by The Washington Times.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Well how else do you expect them to pay for them missile test and the Nukes?

I thought Iran was paying.
I guess it's payment on delivery.

558 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:30:36pm

re: #551 albusteve

Irans concerns are legitimate but ours are not?

he is taping a "kick me" sign to all of our backs and quite possibly clearing the way for "holocaust 2." WTF is he thinking?

559 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:31:21pm

re: #549 justabill

Try using the reply or quote links so the rest of us here have a clue what you are talking about. Otherwise you come off as just some crank trying to derail the thread by nattering to yourself.

560 razorbacker  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:32:23pm

re: #522 albusteve

TIMES UP!...the posts have been repeating themselves for the last 400 entries, so time for a vote....
who won?....
is murder killing? or
is killing murder?

What is the controversy?

Murder is killing.

Killing may be murder.

561 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:32:44pm

re: #543 _RememberTonyC

OK .... if this is true, now Obama is endangering the world and we may as well just admit it:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

So, according to Obama,
Iran, sitting on large oil deposits, needs nuclear power, but Israel doesn't need any more room for Jews.

562 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:32:55pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

Ask me again after I've had a couple of De Beers.

I hear De Beers Zales are up this year.

563 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:32:57pm

re: #529 zombie

Partly, yes, in my view.

So do I, actually.

But it's an interesting point to discuss.

564 Abu Lahab  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:04pm

Charles, it's embarrassing how many people in the US is giving credit to "Stanislav Mishin" who is the author of that Pravda article and the writer of the blog mat Rodina (means "Mother Land" in Russian). If you google him, you will be surprised how widely that article was circulated.
To use Pravda as a new source is pretty pathetic, indeed !

565 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:13pm

re: #558 _RememberTonyC

he is taping a "kick me" sign to all of our backs and quite possibly clearing the way for "holocaust 2." WTF is he thinking?

of himself and his legacy....another autobiography, how he brought peace to the ME when nobody before him could

566 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:14pm

re: #543 _RememberTonyC

OK .... if this is true, now Obama is endangering the world and we may as well just admit it:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

This whole..Øbama as President thing...doesn't seem to be going all that well.

567 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:23pm

Time for open thread. I'm itching to post some automotive crap.

568 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:27pm

re: #526 quickjustice

Jew's harp is an instrument separate from harmonica.

I know that. But I am a Jew who plays the harp (harmonica.)

569 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:38pm

re: #520 avanti

Why did you pick the dead fetus example out from the other fatally flawed examples I used. Charles me and others have posted tragic stories of women near term with fetuses with no chance of survival outside the womb, but you choose to ignore them.

Because it is with arguments like yours that people attempt to hide the killing of healthy unborn fetuses behind the ruse of protecting "the health of the mother".

One of the reasons you have some of "these tragic stories of women near term with fetuses with no chance of survival outside the womb" is because the abortionist stabbed or poisoned the fetus first before delivering them. If the abortionist stabbed or poisoned the baby outside the womb, it would clearly be murder, but because he did it a few minutes earlier inside the womb, it's called a "medical procedure". Nice.

570 KenJen  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:58pm

This probably has already been asked but how is abortion legal in Kansas with this law on the books? If a person can be charged with a fetus's murder in the act of a crime, why couldn't Dr. Tiller also be charged? Just asking.

571 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:33:59pm

re: #538 Last Mohican

Some qualification might be needed for that statement. I have seen, for example, emergency gravid hysterectomies, in which a woman's entire uterus is removed, fetus and all, because of extremely severe bleeding that would have killed both the woman and the fetus if the surgery wasn't performed immediately. Both times I saw this happen, the fetus was far too early along to have survived, even with the most aggressive neonatal ICU care imaginable. So, both times, the fetus was simply allowed to pass away naturally. They were deeply sad occasions. I don't think I'll ever forget either one.

As I said, the fetus has to be viable. In your tragic example, there was no way to save the fetal life, so no effort would change the outcome.

572 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:34:23pm

re: #519 Kenneth

Not "ends" and not merely a "potential life"... It kills a life. Period.

Human life begins at conception, there is no scientific or biological definition of life that would contradict that. It is the legal opinion in the USA, that a "legal person" only exists after birth. The legal opinion does not speak to the issue of when life began.

Every time someone plucks an eyebrow hair, the attached follicle has living cells in it, cells that would have kept living if the hair hadn't been plucked. Does that mean that every time someone plucks their eyebrows, they've guilty of mass murder?

573 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:34:34pm

re: #544 Eowyn2

[Link: www.ncregister.com...]

Did I indicate ANYWHERE in my comment on this thread that there would be NO condemnation of Tillers killer?

All I have been harping on (and that's a fact, harping, probably driving people crazy, sort of like KT and the RP shit), but anyway, all I have been harping on is I feel that Christian congregations have become lazy, as long as there is asses in the pews, personal beliefs don't matter.

If the person next to you supports group like Operation Rescue, would YOU say something to them? How many pastors would talk AGAINST Operation Rescue?

Not a SINGLE condemnation in that link mentions Operation Rescue, or any of the other radical pro-life groups. My point is made.

574 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:34:40pm

re: #510 reine.de.tout

I have a friend who had a perfectly normal baby, and at some point in his life, he was severely injured in an accident, and is now mentally and physically disabled. His severe disabilities happened to occur after he was born, instead of while in the womb.

If incapacitation of the baby (not death, but disability status) is legal to allow abortion of a baby, what should happen to this young man?

I don't know about anyone else, but I was talking about a hypothetical baby whose condition is incompatible with life. I'm thankful I've never been faced with that kind of decision, but I think that's one situation where good people can disagree.

575 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:04pm

re: #509 Charles

Mat Rodina also has a blog, and the current post at the top is an ugly homophobic rant about Western perversion.

Are we sure "Mat Rodina" is the guy's real name? I found this when I looked it up:

Rodina-Mat, Russian for "Mother Russia".

In the Soviet period, the term Mother Motherland (Родина-Мать, Rodina-Mat) was preferred

It looks like a pen name.

576 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:15pm

re: #340 doppelganglander


I'm not welcome in the Republican party. They aren't interested in my ideas and I'm not interested n theirs. I'm here almost every day encouraging conservatives to embrace constructive policies and to not associate with extremists. I also try to discourage them accepting conspiracy theories and bad information. Many cannot be convinced.

577 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:24pm

re: #562 capitalist piglet

I hear De Beers Zales are up this year.

Are those Da Chicago De Beers?

578 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:25pm

re: #545 Occasional Reader

Actually, I'd say the proposition that a zygote is a human life is a moral conclusion, that is not suspectible to scientific analysis. That is, science does not purport to answer the question of whether/at what point a fetus becomes a person.

You are confusing the biological definition of "life" with the legal definition of "person". These are two very different concepts. Adult women were not considered legal persons until the early part of the 20th century. They certainly were considered alive.

579 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:27pm

re: #567 Ward Cleaver

Time for open thread. I'm itching to post some automotive crap.

automotive crap....

[Link: www.musclecars.net...]

580 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:30pm

re: #453 Slumbering Behemoth

And if the "baby" is non viable? Dead in the womb, or disfigured/malformed to the point that it would survive for only a very short and very painful amount of time outside the womb? What then?

that's called a "miscarriage" or "stillborn"

581 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:30pm

re: #531 albusteve

what if it was a known hit duck?

Are you suggesting he was a quack?

582 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:30pm

re: #567 Ward Cleaver

Time for open thread. I'm itching to post some automotive crap.

Questions, answers, or tips?

583 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:35:49pm

re: #572 Last Mohican

No, that would be silly.

584 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:36:05pm

re: #570 KenJen

This probably has already been asked but how is abortion legal in Kansas with this law on the books? If a person can be charged with a fetus's murder in the act of a crime, why couldn't Dr. Tiller also be charged? Just asking.

Um... because the law, as written, doesn't apply to what he was doing?

585 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:36:30pm

re: #576 Killgore Trout

I'm not welcome in the Republican party. They aren't interested in my ideas and I'm not interested n theirs. I'm here almost every day encouraging conservatives to embrace constructive policies and to not associate with extremists. I also try to discourage them accepting conspiracy theories and bad information. Many cannot be convinced.

Maybe you are not always right. That would matter if someone listened to you or not.

586 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:36:44pm

re: #474 Ward Cleaver

The source is anti-vax, but someone making $29m because of his conflict of interest is still unethical (and possibly illegal).

Thanks, Ward. I confess that I threw that out as bait, partly because I was curious to see if anyone would hint that being on the side of pro-vax gives a criminal a free ride. Ya gotta be objective...
.

587 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:36:50pm

Governor Palin Statement on William Long

"The stories of two very different lives with similar fates crossed through the media's hands yesterday - both equally important but one lacked the proper attention. The death of 67-year old George Tiller was unacceptable, but equally disgusting was another death that police believe was politically and religiously motivated as well.

William Long died yesterday. The 23-year old Army Recruiter was gunned down by a fanatic; another fellow soldier was wounded in the ambush. The soldiers had just completed their basic training and were talking to potential recruits, just as my son, Track, once did.

Whatever titles we give these murderers, both deserve our attention. Violence like that is no way to solve a political dispute nor a religious one. And the fanatics on all sides do great disservice when they confuse dissention with rage and death."

Governor Sarah Palin

[Link: www.sarahpac.com...]

As of 3:15pm EDT there's still no statement on the White House website about the death of a US soldier by a Muslim terrorist. Contrast that to the rapidity with which the Obama administration had something to say about the Tiller murder.

588 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:37:15pm

re: #576 Killgore Trout

encouraging conservatives to embrace constructive policies

And those would be ,,,,?

589 albusteve  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:37:19pm

re: #581 Spare O'Lake

Are you suggesting he was a quack?

if you spot a quack in the pew next to you, teal someone about it

590 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:37:20pm

re: #576 Killgore Trout

I'm not welcome in the Republican party. They aren't interested in my ideas and I'm not interested n theirs. I'm here almost every day encouraging conservatives to embrace constructive policies and to not associate with extremists. I also try to discourage them accepting conspiracy theories and bad information. Many cannot be convinced.

OK.
But are you welcome in the Democratic Party?

591 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:37:21pm

re: #575 Honorary Yooper

It looks like a pen name.

Yes, it's probably a pseudonym. The fact that Rush Limbaugh is quoting this guy is pretty damned sickening.

592 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:38:19pm

re: #565 albusteve

of himself and his legacy....another autobiography, how he brought peace to the ME when nobody before him could

he's naive and arrogant all at once when it comes to the mideast. every signal he has sent emboldens the bad guys and is a threat to the good guys. sadly, he appears to be backing Israel into a corner and nobody in our feckless congress or senate has the balls to call him on it. so Israel will be forced to act before the iranian threat becomes mortal. and you know he will condemn Israel when it does act. this is sickening.

593 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:38:28pm

re: #580 Alouette

A disfigured or malformed fetus that cannot survive outside of the womb is called a "miscarriage" or "stillborn"? News to me.

594 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:38:32pm

And speaking of eyebrow plucking, did you know that it's forbidden in Islam? So says this poster on shiachat.com:

most people when told things about islam, either do not belive in what you say or say 'prove it' ppl seem to hav more effect when things are spoken by science rather than islam!

well here's one thing i learned recently:
plucking of eyebrows is haram in islam(i hope most ov u knew tht), science recetly proved that everytime an eyebrow is plucked a brain cells die, causing malfunction of brain, or stroke or possible amnesia. BRAIN CELLS ARE ONLY MADE ONCE IN LIFE, save them.....do not pluck ur eyebrows all thos women out there

just think there are so many things which according to us shud not b forbidden in islam, like listening to music, chess, pork, lying,masturbating..........
who knows science mite just prove them harmful too
STOP NOW! all those bad habits, b4 the science of their forbiddance get u

I was about to go turn on some tunes, but maybe I'd better search the medical literature first and make sure it's safe....

595 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:38:43pm

re: #591 Charles

Yes, it's probably a pseudonym. The fact that Rush Limbaugh is quoting this guy is pretty damned sickening.

And it is just as sickening that he is close to closing his 5th hour of broadcasting this week and has not mentioned anything about the Tiller killing, pro, con or otherwise. The voice of the GOP huh?

596 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:03pm

re: #576 Killgore Trout

What a load of horse hockey. You offer nothing but overblown conspiracy theories.

But you got that "no one wants to listen" to you correct.

597 Abu Lahab  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:05pm

re: #575 Honorary Yooper
Mat Rodina is not his name actually. And it's not a fact that Stanislav is his real name (check my 564 comment)

598 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:16pm

re: #78 Charles

And if you want to see the kind of ugly, hateful commentary that's hideously common on the right wing, here's one of the worst examples yet:

[Link: www.gingiedmonds.com...]

I will just have to take your word for it.

599 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:17pm

re: #589 albusteve

if you spot a quack in the pew next to you, teal someone about it

Duck puns. Oh well, Anatidae, another dollar.

/

600 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:29pm

re: #587 Nevergiveup

Governor Palin Statement on William Long

"The stories of two very different lives with similar fates crossed through the media's hands yesterday - both equally important but one lacked the proper attention. The death of 67-year old George Tiller was unacceptable, but equally disgusting was another death that police believe was politically and religiously motivated as well.

William Long died yesterday. The 23-year old Army Recruiter was gunned down by a fanatic; another fellow soldier was wounded in the ambush. The soldiers had just completed their basic training and were talking to potential recruits, just as my son, Track, once did.

Whatever titles we give these murderers, both deserve our attention. Violence like that is no way to solve a political dispute nor a religious one. And the fanatics on all sides do great disservice when they confuse dissention with rage and death."

Governor Sarah Palin

[Link: www.sarahpac.com...]

As of 3:15pm EDT there's still no statement on the White House website about the death of a US soldier by a Muslim terrorist. Contrast that to the rapidity with which the Obama administration had something to say about the Tiller murder.

And we got stuck with the idiot VP Biden.

I had to say it.

601 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:33pm

re: #449 Russkilitlover

Well it IS ironic to be lectured on capitalism by Russians. Embarassing, too.

Pravda is hardly a reliable source. Have you read it in recent years? It's like the Russian version of the Weekly World News, complete with reporting on alien abductions and talking cows.

602 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:45pm

re: #578 Kenneth

You are confusing the biological definition of "life" with the legal definition of "person". These are two very different concepts. Adult women were not considered legal persons until the early part of the 20th century. They certainly were considered alive.

No, no confusion here at all. You had stated: "Human life begins at conception". As I said, that is not a "scientific" observation, but a moral one. I'm not talking about "legal personhood" in the "can you validly sign a contract" sense. I'm talking about the question of when a fetus becomes A person.

And merely pointing out that a fetus is "life" is not enough. So is your appendix.

603 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:39:53pm

re: #510 reine.de.tout

I have a friend who had a perfectly normal baby, and at some point in his life, he was severely injured in an accident, and is now mentally and physically disabled. His severe disabilities happened to occur after he was born, instead of while in the womb.

If incapacitation of the baby (not death, but disability status) is legal to allow abortion of a baby, what should happen to this young man?

Wow, Reine, that's thought-provoking. Who, indeed, has the right to play God in either case?
.

604 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:40:15pm

re: #591 Charles

Yes, it's probably a pseudonym. The fact that Rush Limbaugh is quoting this guy is pretty damned sickening.

Supposedly he has a well-paid staff who can vet his sources, too. Makes it hard to claim it was an "oversight", if he would even want to claim that.

605 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:40:50pm

re: #589 albusteve

if you spot a quack in the pew next to you, teal someone about it

I suspect there's a web of duck assassins afoot.

606 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:01pm

re: #596 FurryOldGuyJeans

What a load of horse hockey. You offer nothing but overblown conspiracy theories.

But you got that "no one wants to listen" to you correct.

Colonel Sherman Potter ,,, 4077 MASH

607 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:16pm

re: #569 Kenneth

Because it is with arguments like yours that people attempt to hide the killing of healthy unborn fetuses behind the ruse of protecting "the health of the mother".


You seem to be under the impression spread by O"Reily and others that women routinely walked into Tiller's office in their 8th or 9th month, plucked down a check and had a healthy baby aborted.
That the facts indicate otherwise will never change your opinion that Tiller commits murder, and to be honest, if you believe as you do, I get that.

608 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:34pm

re: #601 SixDegrees

Pravda is hardly a reliable source. Have you read it in recent years? It's like the Russian version of the Weekly World News, complete with reporting on alien abductions and talking cows.

Can you prove we DIDN'T invade Iraq in order to recover a crashed UFO?

WELL?! CAN YOU?!

/

609 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:38pm

re: #583 Kenneth

No, that would be silly.

I agree. But there are more living cells in a plucked eyebrow than in an extremely early embryo. And I don't know of any scientific definition of life that includes one but not the other.

I have a sneaky feeling that someone may be about to link to a certain Monty Python video soon.

610 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:39pm

re: #599 OldLineTexan

Duck puns. Oh well, Anatidae, another dollar.

/

Fowl.

611 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:53pm

re: #607 avanti

How about answering my No. 540?

612 lobo91  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:54pm

re: #603 Tamron

Wow, Reine, that's thought-provoking. Who, indeed, has the right to play God in either case?
.

If Obama gets his way, Tom Daschle and company will.

613 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:41:55pm

re: #605 Occasional Reader

duck assassins

614 SecondComing  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:42:13pm

Tiller Suspect "Suffered From Mental Illness"

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

615 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:42:21pm

re: #602 Occasional Reader

No, no confusion here at all. You had stated: "Human life begins at conception". As I said, that is not a "scientific" observation, but a moral one. I'm not talking about "legal personhood" in the "can you validly sign a contract" sense. I'm talking about the question of when a fetus becomes A person.

And merely pointing out that a fetus is "life" is not enough. So is your appendix.

Interestingly, the Talmud says after 40 days.

616 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:42:24pm
617 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:42:41pm

re: #594 Last Mohican

science recetly proved that everytime an eyebrow is plucked a brain cells die

LOL

618 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:42:59pm

re: #613 hans ze beeman

duck assassins

How the #@$@! did you find that?!

619 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:43:06pm

re: #604 wrenchwench

Supposedly he has a well-paid staff who can vet his sources, too. Makes it hard to claim it was an "oversight", if he would even want to claim that.

There may, indeed, be vetting that takes place on Limbaugh's show. But there's also a vast amount of shoveling that takes place as well.

620 brookly red  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:43:07pm

re: #613 hans ze beeman

duck assassins

/wabbit assassins

621 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:43:26pm

re: #468 Kenneth

Let zombie speak for itself, please. Rhetorical arguments were advanced which seem to support the idea that the murder of Tiller was justified:


Therefore it is fair of me to ask whether zombie believes Roeder was justified.

I'm going to weigh in here on this, even without being asked. Open blog and all that.

If I am confronted with someone who is holding another person hostage, would I consider myself justified in shooting the perp? Yes.

Am I Anti-Abortion/Pro-Life? Yes

was the murder of Tiller justifiable? No.

622 alegrias  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:43:34pm

OT
Whew, it's hard to maintain a connection to LGF with my AT&T wireless connection.

Anyone else spooked logging in to LFG and seeing William Ayers' smug mug advertising his 3 hour interview (LIVE!) on C-SPAN's BookTV this Sunday?

623 Last Mohican  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:44:00pm

re: #586 Tamron

Thanks, Ward. I confess that I threw that out as bait, partly because I was curious to see if anyone would hint that being on the side of pro-vax gives a criminal a free ride. Ya gotta be objective...
.

I'm willing to be objective, when presented with facts that come from a source other than a raving antiscientific loon.

I'm not saying there aren't any reliable facts in this case. For all I know, the doctor is guilty as sin and should go to jail. But I haven't seen anyone with an ounce of credibility claiming that.

624 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:44:03pm

re: #607 avanti

You seem to be under the impression spread by O"Reily and others that women routinely walked into Tiller's office in their 8th or 9th month, plucked down a check and had a healthy baby aborted.
That the facts indicate otherwise will never change your opinion that Tiller commits murder, and to be honest, if you believe as you do, I get that.

Just curious, in your opinion, how many 8th or 9th month abortions of viable 'fetuses' would be too many?

625 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:44:09pm

re: #608 Occasional Reader

Can you prove we DIDN'T invade Iraq in order to recover a crashed UFO?

WELL?! CAN YOU?!

/

My talking cow says otherwise. That's proof enough for me.

626 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:44:26pm

re: #620 brookly red

/wabbit assassins

DUCK! ASSASSINS!

627 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:44:39pm

re: #622 alegrias

Not I, I have an addon that blocks ads. Me no can see it.

628 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:44:44pm

re: #597 Abu Lahab

Mat Rodina is not his name actually. And it's not a fact that Stanislav is his real name (check my 564 comment)

I saw it after I posted my comment. Stanislav Mishin may or may not be his real name. Both seem to be common names in Russia from a quick Google and Wiki search.

629 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:44:48pm

re: #618 Occasional Reader

I used the google search interface

630 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:45:38pm

re: #618 Occasional Reader

How the #@$@! did you find that?!

You should have Archie McPhee bookmarked. All the cool kids do.

631 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:46:14pm

re: #615 Ben Hur

Interestingly, the Talmud says after 40 days.

Yeah, well... if the Talmud's so damn smart, why didn't it say something about "... and y'all might want to consider getting out of Europe round about 1932"?

/

632 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:46:27pm

re: #611 MandyManners

How about answering my No. 540?

I though I covered that in my548 ?

633 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:46:45pm

re: #540 MandyManners

Didn't FCBBHO vote against that law in Illinois?

Yes, yes he did. All part of his not wanting to "burden" anyone with a baby philosophy.

634 dingleB  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:46:45pm

re: #510 reine.de.tout

IIRC, Deutchland had a solution, fortunately the method was stopped by a few million GI's.

635 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:46:51pm

re: #588 sattv4u2

For example: Bailing out the banks. TARP was the right thing to do. I'm pretty sure when we look back at this in 3 or 4 years it will be pretty clear that it worked. Letting our financial infrastructure collapse would have been a huge disaster. Conservatives are opposing almost everything positive going on these days. The DHS memo, which relates to this shooting, hurt their feelings. Obama proposed a plan for public transparency for distributing Stimulus money and conservatives invented a conspiracy theory that the was going to silence criticism.
Conservatives are doing a lot of damage to themselves and they insist on continuing no matter how many warning they get.
Also See: Charles' criticism of the Pravda story that's making the rounds. There's rampant stupidity.

636 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:47:00pm
637 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:47:01pm

re: #629 hans ze beeman

I used the google search interface

"Google"? What an odd name. Never heard of it! Must be some German thing.

/

638 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:47:36pm

re: #637 Occasional Reader

I heard the next Microsoft search thingy is called Bada Bing

639 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:47:39pm

The sooner we can do away with all pregnancies the better.
Vive le test tube!

640 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:48:04pm
641 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:49:00pm

re: #632 avanti

I though I covered that in my548 ?

No, you didn't. Did FCBBHO oppose that law?

642 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:49:43pm

re: #633 Russkilitlover

Yes, yes he did. All part of his not wanting to "burden" anyone with a baby philosophy.

Talking about his own daughters, too.

643 alegrias  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:49:45pm

re: #603 Tamron

Wow, Reine, that's thought-provoking. Who, indeed, has the right to play God in either case?
.

* * * *
In countries where resources are scarce and people aren't considered valued individuals with the right to life, liberty & happiness, euthanasia would probably be "offered".

644 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:49:59pm

re: #624 Buck

Just curious, in your opinion, how many 8th or 9th month abortions of viable 'fetuses' would be too many?

One viable fetus that could survive outside the womb, or not endanger the health of the mother would be too many. That's why the courts allow restriction or a outright ban. In Tillers case, two doctors had to agree on the need.

645 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:50:09pm

re: #607 avanti

You seem to be under the impression spread by O"Reily and others that women routinely walked into Tiller's office in their 8th or 9th month, plucked down a check and had a healthy baby aborted.
That the facts indicate otherwise will never change your opinion that Tiller commits murder, and to be honest, if you believe as you do, I get that.

The problem with liberals is they cannot accept the fact that evil exists. Well, it does avanti. Take a gander at this google result: [Link: www.google.com...]

Tiller's family has temporarily shut the site down, but look at the Tiller sites - third-trimester therapeutic abortions, Late Abortion Care for Fetal ..., just look. That's exactly what folks did. They walked in and plopped down $5000 and asked to have their fetus killed.

646 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:50:22pm

re: #639 Spare O'Lake

The sooner we can do away with all pregnancies the better.
Vive le test tube!

Disagree. Pregnancy is like parenthood--it definitely has downsides, but I wouldn't skip it. (Caveat--I had "normal" pregnancies.)

647 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:51:00pm

re: #635 Killgore Trout

. TARP was the right thing to do

This is what I told YOU yesterday. You gave the credit to Obama (mostly) TARP was a Bush admin. idea. THEY decided in the spirit of goodwill to leave half of it for the new admin to administer

The rest of you post contains NO "constructive policies" as you stated in 576. I'm still waiting for them!

648 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:52:11pm

re: #602 Occasional Reader

I see.

Define "human" and "life".

I would define human in this sense as having all the genetic material of a complete human being. "Life" is defined as a cell or group of cells that are "alive"; that is undergoing biological functions of mitosis, respiration, etc. There is no moral judgment anywhere in that definition. Strictly biological.

So an appendix, or a hair follicle if you will, are live tissues, but not full human life. An embryo is a human life. A sperm cell does not contain the full DNA & therefore is not a human life.

Now your argument is a detour from the legal opinion legalizing abortion. The opinion makes no reference to a definition of life or the inclusion of morality. It is based solely on the legal definition of a "person". Obama dodged the question of when life begins, either because he's politically shrewd or a moral coward, your pick. The question is legally irrelevant, if morally inconvenient to the pro-choice faction.

649 alegrias  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:52:42pm

OT
LIVE
Nancy Reagan & Pres. Obama, commemorating Pres. Ronald Reagan!

650 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:53:32pm

re: #602 Occasional Reader

And merely pointing out that a fetus is "life" is not enough. So is your appendix.

My table of contents is pretty listless.
.

651 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:53:32pm

*crickets*

652 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:53:42pm

re: #646 EmmmieG

Disagree. Pregnancy is like parenthood--it definitely has downsides, but I wouldn't skip it. (Caveat--I had "normal" pregnancies.)

True, but OTOH it would resolve the abortion debate!

653 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:54:08pm

re: #558 _RememberTonyC

he is taping a "kick me" sign to all of our backs and quite possibly clearing the way for "holocaust 2." WTF is he thinking?

"I'm a Star"

654 experiencedtraveller  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:55:06pm

re: #599 OldLineTexan

Duck puns. Oh well, Anatidae, another dollar.

Don't get Daffy on us OLT.....

655 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:55:55pm

re: #651 MandyManners

*crickets*

*pulls up a chair and puts feet on railing*

656 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:56:05pm

re: #618 Occasional Reader

How the #@$@! did you find that?!


[Link: images.search.yahoo.com...]

657 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:56:05pm

re: #635 Killgore Trout

re: #647 sattv4u2

"constructive policies"

Here ,, I;ll give YOU some

cut the corporate tax rate to Irelands. Inform people that corporations really do NOt pay taxes, they just roll it inot the price of the goods or services they sell. Cut the rate, prices go down

658 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:56:28pm

re: #641 MandyManners

No, you didn't. Did FCBBHO oppose that law?

Of course, and for the reasons cited in 548.

659 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:56:40pm

re: #646 EmmmieG

Disagree. Pregnancy is like parenthood--it definitely has downsides, but I wouldn't skip it. (Caveat--I had "normal" pregnancies.)

Pregnancy is temporary, parenthood is not.

660 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:56:48pm

re: #607 avanti

You seem to be under the impression spread by O"Reily and others that women routinely walked into Tiller's office in their 8th or 9th month, plucked down a check and had a healthy baby aborted.
That the facts indicate otherwise will never change your opinion that Tiller commits murder, and to be honest, if you believe as you do, I get that.

I never watch O'Reilly.

Do you believe it does not happen? Believe it or not, the majority of abortions are performed as a method of birth-control, and that would include a significant number of later term abortions, as uncomfortable a fact as that may be to you to acknowledge. You can't brush it away with a pathetic & typically liberal reference to Fox News.

661 Russkilitlover  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:57:00pm

re: #645 unrealizedviewpoint

The problem with liberals is they cannot accept the fact that evil exists. Well, it does avanti. Take a gander at this google result: [Link: www.google.com...]

Tiller's family has temporarily shut the site down, but look at the Tiller sites - third-trimester therapeutic abortions, Late Abortion Care for Fetal ..., just look. That's exactly what folks did. They walked in and plopped down $5000 and asked to have their fetus killed.

Huh. Took the site down. Now I wonder why they would do that?

662 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:58:01pm

re: #644 avanti

One viable fetus that could survive outside the womb, or not endanger the health of the mother would be too many. That's why the courts allow restriction or a outright ban. In Tillers case, two doctors had to agree on the need.

Right, and we have witnesses that say he didn't use an independent doctor, but instead used a doctor who was not practicing except to rubber stamp Tiller's requests.

We have witnesses that will say under oath that they had a third term abortion, in the clinic and that their 'fetus' was viable.

ANYWAY, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am in no way advocating murder. However I can state my feeling that what Tiller did was disgusting.
ALSO please don't connect a womans right to choose, with late third term abortions.

I fully support what is commonly being called choice. I also support the rule of law.

I would have preferred that Tiller faced the justice of that rule of law.

663 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 12:58:34pm

re: #661 Russkilitlover

Huh. Took the site down. Now I wonder why they would do that?

Actually, that's reasonable IMO.

664 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:00:03pm

re: #661 Russkilitlover

Huh. Took the site down. Now I wonder why they would do that?

I can think of many reasons. For one, the doctor running the clinic has been murdered.
Also, I have looked at that site in the past. I don't remember seeing anything about advertising 'services' for $5k. What I saw was a lot of information about counseling and the types of services offered for parents in medical crisis.

665 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:00:07pm

re: #645 unrealizedviewpoint


Tiller's family has temporarily shut the site down, but look at the Tiller sites - third-trimester therapeutic abortions, Late Abortion Care for Fetal ..., just look. That's exactly what folks did. They walked in and plopped down $5000 and asked to have their fetus killed.


They may have asked, but until someone proves that he was illegally aborting healthy fetuses by circumventing the rules, you have no argument.

666 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:01:15pm

re: #662 Buck

I also support the rule of law. I would have preferred that Tiller faced the justice of that rule of law.

If given time, and the bastard didn't kill Tiller (may he rot in prison), Tiller would have been made to answer criminally.

667 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:01:33pm
668 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:01:48pm

re: #662 Buck

Right, and we have witnesses that say he didn't use an independent doctor, but instead used a doctor who was not practicing except to rubber stamp Tiller's requests.

We have witnesses that will say under oath that they had a third term abortion, in the clinic and that their 'fetus' was viable.

ANYWAY, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am in no way advocating murder. However I can state my feeling that what Tiller did was disgusting.
ALSO please don't connect a womans right to choose, with late third term abortions.

I fully support what is commonly being called choice. I also support the rule of law.

I would have preferred that Tiller faced the justice of that rule of law.

Fine, but it took the jury less then a hour to find him innocent of all those charges.

669 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:01:51pm

re: #622 alegrias

OT
Whew, it's hard to maintain a connection to LGF with my AT&T wireless connection.

Anyone else spooked logging in to LFG and seeing William Ayers' smug mug advertising his 3 hour interview (LIVE!) on C-SPAN's BookTV this Sunday?

YES. It gives him entirely too much credibility, to have been up on LGF's home page for a couple of day now. Remember the Rodney King trial, where the jurors had to watch the beating dozens of times, to the point where they finally weren't repulsed by it? Kinda like that.
.

670 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:02:59pm
671 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:03:13pm

re: #665 avanti

They may have asked, but until someone proves that he was illegally aborting healthy fetuses by circumventing the rules, you have no argument.

Moot now Avanti, he's dead.

And bullshit. I have no argument. That coming from the king of negative karma?

672 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:03:22pm

re: #655 Spare O'Lake

*pulls up a chair and puts feet on railing*

/pours SO'L an iced tea.

673 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:03:36pm

re: #667 Iron Fist

No one quite realizes how brilliant you are, do they? That sucks.

I "do" ,,, see my 647 and 657!

674 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:04:30pm

re: #664 KansasMom

I can think of many reasons. For one, the doctor running the clinic has been murdered.
Also, I have looked at that site in the past. I don't remember seeing anything about advertising 'services' for $5k. What I saw was a lot of information about counseling and the types of services offered for parents in medical crisis.


That's because the 5K fee is from Terry and his type. he performed some at no cost, some may have cost even more.

675 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:04:32pm

So it's bad to tell Charles what to post on his blog, and get mad at what he does/doesn't cover, but Rush is evil because his show doesn't contain certain topics on demand?

676 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:04:37pm

re: #666 unrealizedviewpoint

If given time, and the bastard didn't kill Tiller (may he rot in prison), Tiller would have been made to answer criminally.

I see that you think he was being immoral, and that you find his services abhorrent. But the way to stop it would be to change the law, because Tiller wasn't acting criminally. He followed the law to the letter. He did just months ago face charges and was acquitted.

677 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:05:15pm

re: #671 unrealizedviewpoint

Moot now Avanti, he's dead.

And bullshit. I have no argument. That coming from the king of negative karma?

avanti is not the king of negative karma!

678 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:05:44pm

re: #576 Killgore Trout

KT, you're just here bitching. You haven't - in months - made a single productive suggestion.

679 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:06:06pm

re: #666 unrealizedviewpoint

If given time, and the bastard didn't kill Tiller (may he rot in prison), Tiller would have been made to answer criminally.

No, he wouldn't have, because he was not doing anything illegal.

680 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:06:46pm

re: #678 Dianna

KT, you're just here bitching. You haven't - in months - made a single productive suggestion.

again ,, please see my 647 and 657.

I actually 'like' Kilgore', but I also understand him!

681 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:07:05pm

#602 Occasional Reader

Further thoughts...
"human" and "life" are biological concepts, which can be defined and identified. "Person" is a legal concept, which has been defined by the courts.

Abortion is an issue which overlaps biological, medical, legal, political and moral concerns. Which ever concern a given person may consider most important tends to frame their position on the issue of abortion. It is no wonder then, that lawyers & judges based their opinion upon the preeminence of legal concerns. Most deeply religious people emphasize the moral concerns. Feminists are focused on their political concerns.

That is why the issue of abortion is so contentious. We all bring our assumptions and biases to the table. Raising any one concern above the others necessarily lowers the others.

682 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:07:06pm

re: #643 alegrias

* * * *
In countries where resources are scarce and people aren't considered valued individuals with the right to life, liberty & happiness, euthanasia would probably be "offered".

Take China's obsession with having male children, for example. A few years ago National Geographic had an interesting article which stated that China now has 70 million more males than females, because of that.

Imagine that. 70 million men in this one country, who will never have a girlfriend or a wife.

They have one hell of an army, however!
.

683 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:07:22pm

re: #671 unrealizedviewpoint

Moot now Avanti, he's dead.

And bullshit. I have no argument. That coming from the king of negative karma?

I was the king, but I've been dethroned, but you have a point. Debating a pro choice position on a conservative site is bad Karma. I'll move on.

684 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:07:36pm

re: #660 Kenneth

Believe it or not, the majority of abortions are performed as a method of birth-control, and that would include a significant number of later term abortions, as uncomfortable a fact as that may be to you to acknowledge.

Do you have any proof for that assertion?

685 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:08:04pm

re: #682 Tamron

Take China's obsession with having male children, for example. A few years ago National Geographic had an interesting article which stated that China now has 70 million more males than females, because of that.

Imagine that. 70 million men in this one country, who will never have a girlfriend or a wife.

They have one hell of an army, however!
.

"Don't ask, don't tell" on an epic scale.

686 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:08:41pm

re: #666 unrealizedviewpoint

If given time, and the bastard didn't kill Tiller (may he rot in prison), Tiller would have been made to answer criminally.

re: #679 Charles

No, he wouldn't have, because he was not doing anything illegal.

Been there, Done that,,, Got the NOT GUILTY verdict

687 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:09:01pm

re: #676 KansasMom

I see that you think he was being immoral, and that you find his services abhorrent. But the way to stop it would be to change the law, because Tiller wasn't acting criminally. He followed the law to the letter. He did just months ago face charges and was acquitted.

Every step along the way to prosecuting Tiller the Governor at the time Kathleen Sebelius stood in the way. Finally they managed to get some misdemeanor charges and they were poorly prosecuted. Now that Sebelius is gone (working for Obama) the possibilities had opened up. He was headed big house.

688 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:09:18pm

re: #677 OldLineTexan

avanti is not the king of negative karma!

It's could just be a temporary bull market for me. (pun intended)

689 califleftyb  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:10:12pm

I am sure that amongst us Lizards there is a lawyer that can tell us whether there is cause for a RICO prosecution?

the RICO Act states that a violation can be predicated upon "any act or threat involving murder, kidnapping, gambling, arson, robbery, bribery, extortion, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance . . . which is chargeable under State law and punishable by imprisonment for more than one year." Thus, to prove a RICO claim, a plaintiff or prosecutor must first allege and prove an entire murder case, kidnapping case, arson case, robbery case, etc. Only if the evidence supports these "lesser" charges, can the plaintiff or prosecutor proceed with the remaining elements of the "greater" RICO claim, e.g., pattern, enterprise, operation and management.

690 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:10:48pm

re: #687 unrealizedviewpoint

Every step along the way to prosecuting Tiller the Governor at the time Kathleen Sebelius stood in the way. Finally they managed to get some misdemeanor charges and they were poorly prosecuted. Now that Sebelius is gone (working for Obama) the possibilities had opened up. He was headed big house.

No, he wasn't. He was charged with using a doctor for a second opinion who was not truly "independent" (as Kansas law requires), and he was acquitted of all charges in a jury trial.

691 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:10:59pm

re: #680 sattv4u2

again ,, please see my 647 and 657.

I actually 'like' Kilgore', but I also understand him!

I'm very fond of KT.

692 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:11:06pm

re: #644 avanti

One viable fetus that could survive outside the womb, or not endanger the health of the mother would be too many. That's why the courts allow restriction or a outright ban. In Tillers case, two doctors had to agree on the need.

Are you comfortable with Obama's position in voting down a law in the Illinois senate which would have required a second doctor's opinion as "burdening a decision already made"?

693 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:11:14pm

re: #678 Dianna

I was asked a question and gave a direct answer but you still can't understand how the DHS memo relates to the Tiller assassination so you'll have to pardon me if I don't take you lack of comprehension seriously. I'm heading off to the open thread.

694 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:11:56pm

re: #679 Charles

No, he wouldn't have, because he was not doing anything illegal.

There are many folks, millions I suspect, who disagree with you.

695 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:12:30pm

re: #687 unrealizedviewpoint

Every step along the way to prosecuting Tiller the Governor at the time Kathleen Sebelius stood in the way. Finally they managed to get some misdemeanor charges and they were poorly prosecuted. Now that Sebelius is gone (working for Obama) the possibilities had opened up. He was headed big house.

Because Kline was so ineffective and unmotivated when he started the investigation./
I can't say good things about Sebelious, but she had little to do with the investigation. The very thorough investigation.

696 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:12:36pm

re: #694 unrealizedviewpoint

There are many folks, millions I suspect, who disagree with you.

You can disagree all you like, but it's a simple fact that Dr. Tiller's activities were completely legal.

697 lobo91  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:13:02pm

re: #682 Tamron

Take China's obsession with having male children, for example. A few years ago National Geographic had an interesting article which stated that China now has 70 million more males than females, because of that.

Imagine that. 70 million men in this one country, who will never have a girlfriend or a wife.

They have one hell of an army, however!
.

The same applies to much of the Islamic world, compounded by the fact that many Islamic countries allow multiple marriages.

698 Dianna  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:13:19pm

re: #693 Killgore Trout

I was asked a question and gave a direct answer but you still can't understand how the DHS memo relates to the Tiller assassination so you'll have to pardon me if I don't take you lack of comprehension seriously. I'm heading off to the open thread.

Ri-i-ght.

I disagree, and you're treating it as dishonesty?

That is not a healthy attitude.

699 P. Aaron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:13:45pm

re: #99 Dan G.

Quit trying to divert away from this important topic. Ayers' evil doesn't equilibrize this evil.

"Quit trying...?" Who do you think you are? Panties in a bunch indeed.

Yeah, Ayers' bombing(s) were so long ago, and he didn't really influence anybody important.

No one recognizes the inconsistency. We get mad at the left. But REALLY mad when it looks like it comes from 'the right'?

Murder is MURDER. Attempted murder is still trying to murder. It's not up to us to govern every person out there, yet too many seem to want to, and by default pin this on anti-abortionists.

I am prolife. I have NEVER associated with nor conversed with a pro-life group, or individual. I don't think this killer of the baby killer hurts my pro-life beliefs, nor should it harm any pro-life group unless you prove a conspiracy.

700 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:15:11pm

re: #648 Kenneth

So an appendix, or a hair follicle if you will, are live tissues, but not full human life. An embryo is a human life. A sperm cell does not contain the full DNA & therefore is not a human life.

Human gametes are themselves alive. When these two haploid cells meet the result is zygote with a complete genome, but these cells were alive before conception. Questions such as when is a person a person, and when should a fetus be given protection under law are not easily answered by science.

The best we can do is to look at the status quo and suggest improvements. I do not suggest the status quo of elective early-term abortion and regulated late-term abortions is optimal. However, I do think it may be better than some of the alternatives.

Right now, the person with the power to answer the question whether the fetus is a person is the mother. I can't think of a person who is better qualified to make this decision. Can anyone suggest someone better, even with the acknowledgment of unusual cases such an obese mother unaware of her pregnancy exists? Who is better qualified to make this decision? Are you, dear reader, ready to make this decision for her?

It often falls on family to make difficult decisions of life-and-death questions. I don't think I would have it any other way. I caution people not to become too wrapped up in these edge cases such as the particular instances of George Tiller and Terry Schiavo. When the battle lines are being drawn and the manifestos are being published, we're forgetting that these are not representative cases of abortion or palliative care. In absence of demonstrable examples of the need for change, I argue in favor of the status quo, as imperfect as it is.

701 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:15:15pm

re: #690 Charles

No, he wasn't. He was charged with using a doctor for a second opinion who was not truly "independent" (as Kansas law requires), and he was acquitted of all charges in a jury trial.

I honestly don't know what happened in the trial. Anyone know? I will point out a known fact. Not guilty does not mean innocent.

702 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:16:10pm

re: #701 unrealizedviewpoint

I honestly don't know what happened in the trial. Anyone know? I will point out a known fact. Not guilty does not mean innocent.

He was acquitted of the charges. That means "innocent."

703 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:16:14pm

re: #701 unrealizedviewpoint

I honestly don't know what happened in the trial. Anyone know? I will point out a known fact. Not guilty does not mean innocent.

[Link: www.cjonline.com...]

704 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:16:41pm

re: #696 Charles

You can disagree all you like, but it's a simple fact that Dr. Tiller's activities were completely legal.

One's things certain. There will be no further charges brought against Dr. Tiller.

705 kawfytawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:16:47pm

re: #696 Charles

I hadn't heard of Tiller until the murder but I caught on the news last night that the late term abortions Tiller was providing were in fact illegal in KS....is this not true?

706 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:17:28pm

re: #692 Kenneth

Are you comfortable with Obama's position in voting down a law in the Illinois senate which would have required a second doctor's opinion as "burdening a decision already made"?

Yes, for the reasons often explained on LGF.

707 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:17:39pm

re: #705 kawfytawk

I hadn't heard of Tiller until the murder but I caught on the news last night that the late term abortions Tiller was providing were in fact illegal in KS....is this not true?

It's not true.

708 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:17:49pm

re: #701 unrealizedviewpoint

I honestly don't know what happened in the trial. Anyone know? I will point out a known fact. Not guilty does not mean innocent.

There's a gazillion articles following it at kansas.com.
It was a long, drawn-out investigation and trial. I can't believe you are saying that Tiller was acting criminally when he was just acquitted a few months ago. And you didn't even follow the trial?

709 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:19:08pm
710 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:19:09pm

re: #701 unrealizedviewpoint

I honestly don't know what happened in the trial. Anyone know? I will point out a known fact. Not guilty does not mean innocent.

re: #703 sattv4u2

[Link: www.cjonline.com...]

Ya know ,,, if you pay full price for the interwebbies, you get to use GOOGLE as much as you want !

//

711 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:19:24pm

re: #702 Charles

He was acquitted of the charges. That means "innocent."

I love you Charles, but many a wrong verdict have come from the American justice system.

712 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:19:50pm

re: #704 unrealizedviewpoint

One's things certain. There will be no further charges brought against Dr. Tiller.

You're getting dangerously close to making excuses for the murder.

713 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:20:06pm

re: #701 unrealizedviewpoint

[Link: www.google.com...]

714 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:20:30pm

re: #684 Charles

Why Do Women Have Abortions?

Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
Feels unready for child/responsibility 25%
Feels she can't afford baby 23%
Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities 19%
Relationship problem/Single motherhood 8%
Feels she isn't mature enough 7%
Interference with education/career plans 4%
Parents/Partner wants abortion
715 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:21:09pm

re: #710 sattv4u2

Ya know ,,, if you pay full price for the interwebbies, you get to use GOOGLE as much as you want !

//

I don't spend my life following Tiller's work or trials.

716 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:21:30pm

re: #711 unrealizedviewpoint

I love you Charles, but many a wrong verdict have come from the American justice system.

Maybe you should read up on Tiller's trial and the investigation that led to it, learn a few more details, before you come to that conclusion.

717 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:21:45pm

re: #702 Charles

He was acquitted of the charges. That means "innocent."

I don't know about the US, but in Canada, an a acquittal simply means "found not guilty". Courts of law do not determine innocence. Any US lawyers here to comment on that?

718 kawfytawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:21:51pm

KS state law that only allows late-term abortions if two independent physicians agree the procedure is necessary to save a woman's life or prevent "substantial and irreversible" harm to "a major bodily function."

719 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:22:03pm

re: #714 Kenneth

Why Do Women Have Abortions?

A poll from the National Right to Life? Is that supposed to be a credible source for information on why women have abortions?

720 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:22:29pm

re: #715 unrealizedviewpoint

I don't spend my life following Tiller's work or trials.

Ya ,, cause that GOOGLE search (parameters,,, Doctor Tiller not guilty) took me all of ,, umm,, let see ,,,, 4 seconds!

721 kawfytawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:22:53pm

it's getting ugly in here

722 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:22:55pm

re: #717 Kenneth

I don't know about the US, but in Canada, an a acquittal simply means "found not guilty". Courts of law do not determine innocence. Any US lawyers here to comment on that?

Defendants are assumed innocent unless proven guilty. If they are found "not guilty" in a jury trial, that means the presumption of innocence is upheld.

723 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:23:14pm

In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), collected questionnaires from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, "420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks." These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. Only two percent (2%) said "a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy," compared to 71% who responded "did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation," 48% who said "found it hard to make arrangements," and 33% who said "was afraid to tell her partner or parents." The report did not indicate that any of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems. ["Why Do Women Have Abortions?," Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1988.]

724 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:23:17pm

re: #712 Charles

You're getting dangerously close to making excuses for the murder.

That wasn't my point at all, just the opposite. I believe if he lived further prosecution was coming.

725 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:23:42pm

re: #701 unrealizedviewpoint

I honestly don't know what happened in the trial. Anyone know? I will point out a known fact. Not guilty does not mean innocent.

link.

726 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:24:04pm

re: #721 kawfytawk

it's getting ugly in here

Hey ,,, I know I'm no Brad Pitt ,,, but thats just MEAN !

//

727 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:24:08pm

re: #724 unrealizedviewpoint

That wasn't my point at all, just the opposite. I believe if he lived further prosecution was coming.

Last night, someone compared Tiller to OJ Simpson.

728 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #720 sattv4u2

Ya ,, cause that GOOGLE search (parameters,,, Doctor Tiller not guilty) took me all of ,, umm,, let see ,,,, 4 seconds!

Go mess with someones satellite reception will ya?
/

729 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:24:42pm

re: #724 unrealizedviewpoint

That wasn't my point at all, just the opposite. I believe if he lived further prosecution was coming.

Prosecution already came ,, and went ,, BYE BYE

730 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:25:11pm

re: #728 unrealizedviewpoint

Go mess with someones satellite reception will ya?
/

I'll take that on advisement,,,

Okay ,,, ummm,,, NOPE

731 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:25:39pm

re: #719 Charles

A poll from the National Right to Life? Is that supposed to be a credible source for information on why women have abortions?

I thought you might say that Charles, which is why the actual study the statistics came from were from a study conducted by the Centers for Disease Control. You will note, the survey I provided on late term abortions came from that hot bed of Christian conservative, Planned Parenthood.

732 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:26:20pm

re: #722 Charles

ok, but that is a legal presumption of innocence, not a moral one.

733 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:26:44pm

Here's a look at that question from a pro-choice website: National Abortion Federation: Women Who Have Abortions:

MYTH: Women are using abortion as a method of birth control.

In fact, half of all women getting abortions report that contraception was used during the month they became pregnant.1 Some of these couples had used the method improperly; some had forgotten or neglected to use it on the particular occasion they conceived; and some had used a contraceptive that failed. No contraceptive method prevents pregnancy 100% of the time.

If abortion were used as a primary method of birth control, a typical woman would have at least two or three pregnancies per year - 30 or more during her lifetime. In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%).5 Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high.

MYTH: Women have abortions for selfish or frivolous reasons.

The decision to have an abortion is rarely simple. Most women base their decision on several factors, the most common being lack of money and/or unreadiness to start or expand their families due to existing responsibilities. Many feel that the most responsible course of action is to wait until their situation is more suited to childrearing; 66% plan to have children when they are older, financially able to provide necessities for them, and/or in a supportive relationship with a partner so their children will have two parents.8 Others wanted to get pregnant but developed serious medical problems, learned that the fetus had severe abnormalities, or experienced some other personal crisis. About 13,000 women each year have abortions because they have become pregnant as a result of rape or incest.

734 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:27:40pm

re: #711 unrealizedviewpoint

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

735 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:27:52pm

re: #723 Kenneth

re: #723 Kenneth

16 weeks is not a third trimester late term abortion and thus not regulated by Roe V Wade restrictions on late term. There were about 1000 3rd trimester procedures last year.

736 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:29:43pm

re: #732 Kenneth

ok, but that is a legal presumption of innocence, not a moral one.

And that's what I'm talking about. He was found legally not guilty, in a jury trial.

737 kawfytawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:29:45pm

re: #733 Charles

About 13,000 women each year have abortions because they have become pregnant as a result of rape or incest.

That number seems awfully high given the treatment victims receive at the hospital. Morning after pill, D&C etc

738 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:29:50pm

re: #716 KansasMom

Maybe you should read up on Tiller's trial and the investigation that led to it, learn a few more details, before you come to that conclusion.

Ya see I have a right in this country to carry certain beliefs. And this belief is not religious in nature at all. I truly believe late term abortion is wrong. Therefore my opinion is soured. I probably would not have been selected as a juror.

739 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:29:52pm

I haven't had enough contact, discussion or association with pro- or anti-lifers to definitively call myself either one, but looking at these two websites certainly makes an impact:

Samuel Armas' Tiny Hand Grips Surgeon's Finger During In-Utero Surgery

A Happy Samuel Armas, at 3 Years Old
.

740 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:29:52pm

re: #731 Kenneth

I thought you might say that Charles, which is why the actual study the statistics came from were from a study conducted by the Centers for Disease Control. You will note, the survey I provided on late term abortions came from that hot bed of Christian conservative, Planned Parenthood.

But your survey is from 16 weeks and up, not 24 and up, so not valid for late term.

741 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:31:20pm

re: #731 Kenneth

I thought you might say that Charles, which is why the actual study the statistics came from were from a study conducted by the Centers for Disease Control. You will note, the survey I provided on late term abortions came from that hot bed of Christian conservative, Planned Parenthood.

Planned Parenthood does not provide late-term services. They wouldn't have the data to report.

742 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:31:52pm

re: #659 KansasMom

Pregnancy is temporary, parenthood is not.

Lots of focus seems to be on the pregnancy portion.

743 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:32:23pm

This is very very very simple folks -

Law vs. belief

The law must govern behavior such that society may function. All societies throughout history have had laws. Belief is a different matter.

Belief and the morality that belief shapes goes further than law in its intent - it goes beyond a society that functions to a society that is intrinsically good.

We are a nation of laws. We are not a nation of belief. A read of the Constitution. It is the contract between the states that defines the terms under which our nation exists and our laws bind us.

The preamble of the Constitution lays out the intent - "a more perfect union" is not a "morally perfect union". It is a union that union that is well governed with certain responsibilities and restraints on those who govern.

In order to have a "morally perfect union" then there can be no constraint on Government - it must have the power to effect moral goodness in whatever activity comes to be within the borders of that state.

Where does such a government exist? Saudi Arabia.

To suddenly want to abandon our system of government and the purposeful and effective constraints on Government and self-appointed assassins and vigilantes because your belief system somehow compels righteousness instead of justice is to sign on to the very same ideology that drives the Saudis and the Iranian Mullahs.

Congratulations on your screwed up political perspective.

Belief is not the business of government. And "life begins at conception" is a matter of belief.

744 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:32:47pm

HUH ,, sometime later on CNN you may see a still photo of Bill Clinton while President with Dr Tiller. I have no idea why, but CNN just requested the file footage from one of their affiliates

745 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:33:07pm

re: #738 unrealizedviewpoint

Ya see I have a right in this country to carry certain beliefs. And this belief is not religious in nature at all. I truly believe late term abortion is wrong. Therefore my opinion is soured. I probably would not have been selected as a juror.

Of course you do. You have every right to believe that abortion is wrong. But to argue that Tiller was breaking the law in Kansas is incorrect.

746 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:33:37pm

re: #739 Tamron

That's a real photo, but the claims made about it are exaggerated and false: snopes.com: Fetal Surgery Photo.

747 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:34:03pm

re: #668 avanti

Fine, but it took the jury less then a hour to find him innocent of all those charges.

Doesn't mean he didn't do it. It just means the law is vague enough, and the Governor is influential enough.

And in my opinion he was killed before the full investigation could take place.

748 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:34:08pm
749 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:35:50pm

re: #737 kawfytawk

That number seems awfully high given the treatment victims receive at the hospital. Morning after pill, D&C etc

The number is accurate.

750 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:36:12pm

re: #733 Charles

I won;t snear at your source Charles, as I recognize there are honest caring people on both sides of this debate. However, your quote does nothing to refute the fact that many abortions are performed as a form of birth control and that very few are done for the "health of the mother".

If abortion were used as a primary method* of birth control, a typical woman would have at least two or three pregnancies per year - 30 or more during her lifetime. In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%).

*Abortion need not be the "primary method" of birth control, but it can still be used as such.

Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high.

Very well then, the pro-choice site does admit abortion is often used as a method of birth control.

Thank you for the quotes, Charles.

751 kawfytawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:36:19pm

re: #749 Charles

how do we know this

752 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:36:39pm

re: #743 karmic_inquisitor

Indeed, who was the philosohper who stated that science cannot be taken to argue at the moral level?

753 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:38:01pm
754 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:38:07pm

re: #702 Charles

He was acquitted of the charges. That means "innocent."

Remember the famous line from the Clinton Impeachment that Arlen Specter tried out for a spin?

"Not guilty, but not innocent".

Anyone who condemned Specter for his spinelessness and then finds him/herself trying to construct the same idea when it comes to this situation ought to rethink their views on "situational ethics".

755 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:38:35pm

Reasons Women Choose Abortion:

In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.3

Very few abortions are done after 16 weeks of pregnancy. But some women have to delay abortions because they have trouble with paying for, finding, or traveling to an abortion specialist.

756 kawfytawk  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:39:53pm

ok, well I'm not going to quibble...the whole story...the dr who kills babies for a living and a man who is insane enough to take this guy's life are equally disgusting....gotta run my puppy is done at the groomer

757 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:40:13pm

re: #702 Charles

He was acquitted of the charges. That means "innocent."

Gotti was cleared of racketeering charges, it didn't mean he was really innocent. Some times the bad guys get away.

758 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:40:46pm

re: #751 kawfytawk

how do we know this

I'm not the only one who can use Google here, am I?

There are approx. 1.3 million abortions annually, and about 1% of those are due to rape.

759 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:40:47pm

re: #753 Charles

The first reason given:


Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.3
760 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:40:57pm

re: #754 karmic_inquisitor

Remember the famous line from the Clinton Impeachment that Arlen Specter tried out for a spin?

"Not guilty, but not innocent".

Anyone who condemned Specter for his spinelessness and then finds him/herself trying to construct the same idea when it comes to this situation ought to rethink their views on "situational ethics".

It sounds like to me that many people think Tiller was "guilty as sin, and free as a bird."

761 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:41:07pm
762 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:41:55pm

re: #743 karmic_inquisitor

This is very very very simple folks

Damn! If that short, concise statement was simple, then what in hell do you consider 'complicated'?

Good one. Updinged, etc.
.

763 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:42:31pm

re: #729 sattv4u2

Prosecution already came ,, and went ,, BYE BYE

You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?

764 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:42:34pm

re: #758 Charles

I'm not the only one who can use Google here, am I?

There are approx. 1.3 million abortions annually, and about 1% of those are due to rape.

I can ,, I can !
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

765 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:42:44pm

Isn't killing babies illegal?

Why - yes it is.

Or are we redefining the term "baby" to blur the line between "law" and "belief"?

766 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:44:54pm

re: #763 unrealizedviewpoint

You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?

Oh for fucks sake. The man is DEAD. Killed by a fucking NUT

Have anymore lost causes you want to belabor?

767 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:44:58pm

re: #746 Charles

That's a real photo, but the claims made about it are exaggerated and false: snopes.com: Fetal Surgery Photo.

Right...

"The baby did not reach out," Bruner says. "The baby was anesthetized. The baby was not aware of what was going on."

As if that makes it any less amazing.

768 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:45:05pm

BBIAB

769 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:45:15pm

Charles, some more surveys, this time from a pro-choice site:

Why Abortions Are Performed


* The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.
* Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;
* 1% because of fetal abnormalities;
* 3% due to the mother's health problems.

Source: Central Illinois Right To Life


Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)

* Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
* Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
* Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
* Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
* Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
* Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
* Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
* Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
* Other: 2.1%

770 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:45:27pm

re: #742 debutaunt

Lots of focus seems to be on the pregnancy portion.

I know, and my post wasn't exactly on topic.
But you really can't equate pregnancy to parenthood IMO. The ability to reproduce does not equate to the ability to raise a child. There are a lot of people who confuse the two, and its a pet peeve of mine.

771 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:45:39pm

re: #763 unrealizedviewpoint

You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?

Further prosecution for what? Those ludicrous misdemeanor charges were the best they could come up with after years of looking, and they were completely defeated in a jury trial.

Since he was not breaking any laws, I'd like to know what you think he could have been prosecuted for.

772 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:46:16pm

re: #763 unrealizedviewpoint

You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?

No. There have been persistent in the past and would have continued to be so.

773 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:46:28pm

re: #767 Buck

As if that makes it any less amazing.

The point is that the claims that the fetus was "clutching" the doctor's finger were simply false.

774 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:46:50pm
775 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:48:15pm

re: #766 sattv4u2

Oh for fucks sake. The man is DEAD. Killed by a fucking NUT

Have anymore lost causes you want to belabor?

Ya know, I've watched you go off on people here unnecessarily and now you're doing it to me. Please be civil.

776 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:52:09pm

re: #771 Charles

Further prosecution for what? Those ludicrous misdemeanor charges were the best they could come up with after years of looking, and they were completely defeated in a jury trial.

Since he was not breaking any laws, I'd like to know what you think he could have been prosecuted for.

I'm not a Right to Lifer. I don't know what they were working on. I know they were not going to relent on having this man prosecuted. Even KansasMom agrees with that.

777 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:52:13pm

Two things. One, operation Rescue is extremist no matter how much they spin. Bunch of nutzoids on the level of Fred Phelps.

Two, George Tiller was under investigation by the Board of Healing Arts for violations because he was alleged to have falsified records that were required to justify the procedures he was performing. Some of the procedures required referral and it is alleged he had a sham referral agreement with another doctor. Regardless of the right to chose, this procedure is supposed to be very strictly controlled. I would think it should be done in a hospital setting not in the private office of a provider who would be influenced by the fee.

So, technically late term abortions are legal in Kansas. George Tiller may have been violating the statutes, however. [Link: www.ksbha.org...]

778 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:52:16pm

re: #763 unrealizedviewpoint

You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?

I also think this is what led to the murder. I suspect that Roeder was enraged by the acquittal and couldn't accept it. He meted out his own judgment instead.

779 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:52:26pm

re: #769 Kenneth

Charles, some more surveys, this time from a pro-choice site:

Why Abortions Are Performed

Saying that "most abortions are performed as a method of birth control" doesn't clarify anything. It says nothing about the reasons those women chose abortion; all it says is that they had no medical reason, and it wasn't because of rape or incest. You can't extrapolate from that to infer that the majority of women have abortions carelessly, on the spur of the moment, because they just feel like it.

780 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:52:42pm

re: #773 Charles

The point is that the claims that the fetus was "clutching" the doctor's finger were simply false.

That is your point. My point is that at 21 weeks, it was called a baby by the doctor.

781 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:52:53pm

re: #776 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm not a Right to Lifer. I don't know what they were working on. I know they were not going to relent on having this man prosecuted. Even KansasMom agrees with that.

Hey, we can agree on something!

782 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:52:57pm

re: #775 unrealizedviewpoint

Ya know, I've watched you go off on people here unnecessarily and now you're doing it to me. Please be civil.

heh

783 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:53:44pm

re: #778 KansasMom

I also think this is what led to the murder. I suspect that Roeder was enraged by the acquittal and couldn't accept it. He meted out his own judgment instead.

We don't know what triggered him. You may right.

784 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:54:34pm

Incidence of Late Term Abortions

The Canadian Medical Association's abortion policy defines abortion as the active termination of a pregnancy up to 20 weeks of gestation (Canadian Medical Association, Policy on Induced Abortion, 1988). 90% of abortions in Canada are performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and just over 9% of abortions take place between 12 and 20 weeks of gestation. A mere 0.4% of abortions take place after 20 weeks of gestation. These are considered late term abortions.

...However, most of the very small number of abortions performed over 20 weeks gestation in Canada are done to protect the woman’s physical health, or because of serious fetal abnormalities.

If "most" abortions are done for reasons of the woman's health or a serious fetal abnormality, then it follows that "some" of the late term abortions must be performed for other reasons. For some reason, this pro-choice paper does not give that data.

785 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:55:05pm

re: #777 kansas

Two things. One, operation Rescue is extremist no matter how much they spin. Bunch of nutzoids on the level of Fred Phelps.

Two, George Tiller was under investigation by the Board of Healing Arts for violations because he was alleged to have falsified records that were required to justify the procedures he was performing. Some of the procedures required referral and it is alleged he had a sham referral agreement with another doctor. Regardless of the right to chose, this procedure is supposed to be very strictly controlled. I would think it should be done in a hospital setting not in the private office of a provider who would be influenced by the fee.

So, technically late term abortions are legal in Kansas. George Tiller may have been violating the statutes, however. [Link: www.ksbha.org...]

Politically motivated charges. Just like the ones on which he was acquitted.

786 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:55:59pm

On a local talk show, a caller claimed that all of the abortion provider murders in the past 12 years I think ,had been when there was a Democrat President. None under Bush. The discussion centered around the possibility that Obama stirred up the pot with his speech at Notre Dame.

787 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:56:53pm

re: #785 Charles

Politically motivated charges. Just like the ones on which he was acquitted.

No. Those criminal charges were not related. He was acquitted of those and the charges before the board were clearly stated to not be related.[Link: www.ksbha.org...]

788 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:57:38pm

re: #774 Kenneth

Case in point:

Man fathers 21 children by 11 different women... and he's only 29

So what is the solution? Forced sterilizations?

That is what folks here in So Cal want for Octomom - 14 kids born as a recreational activity, all on the dole.

I am all for a society and culture that values life and responsibility and a healthy degree of sexual morality, but I don't want either the state or some vigilante trying to govern/punish/dictate behavior so as to bring it about. Values, responsibility and morality cannot be brought into being by coercion from the state or through the threat of violence.

Churches, families, peer pressure, culture and other means of norm setting / modification are the only path.

789 Salamantis  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:57:41pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

"The anti-tax stuff came first, and then it grew and grew. He became very antiabortion," she told the Associated Press. "That's all he cared about is antiabortion. 'The church is this. God is this. Yadda yadda.' "

This is not an outrageous and impossible accusation.

This excerpt from your article is the kind of vicious sentiment that angers and sickens me:

Most foes of abortion rights have condemned the slaying, but some were heartened. "If anybody needed killing, George Tiller needed killing," said Kansas City antiabortion activist Regina Dinwiddie. "The gut reaction from everybody who doesn't have their thoughts filtered by fear is 'Yahoo!' "

Sal: and twisted sentiments like this are all over the internet.

790 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:58:08pm

re: #775 unrealizedviewpoint

Ya know, I've watched you go off on people here unnecessarily and now you're doing it to me. Please be civil.

You asked and/ or insisted at least a dozen times that Tiller would have been found guilty of something at sometime in the future. You were answered CIVILY at least a dozen times that there is NO law he broke, and what he was accused of he was found INNOCENT//NOT GUILTY of.

That ,, after admitting you knew NOTHING about the case

unnecessarily,,, heh!

791 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 1:58:57pm

re: #787 kansas

No. Those criminal charges were not related. He was acquitted of those and the charges before the board were clearly stated to not be related.[Link: www.ksbha.org...]

I didn't say they were "related" -- I said they were politically motivated.

792 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:01:01pm

re: #786 kansas

On a local talk show, a caller claimed that all of the abortion provider murders in the past 12 years I think ,had been when there was a Democrat President. None under Bush. The discussion centered around the possibility that Obama stirred up the pot with his speech at Notre Dame.

Obama's speech called for calmer rhetoric and debate. How could this have "stirred up the pot?"

On the other hand, the anti-abortion groups like Operation Rescue went insane about Obama's speech. I know who I think is responsible for "stirring up the pot," and it's not Barack Obama.

793 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:02:53pm

Again - we have the willingness to abandon a key protection from an abusive government.

The right to a fair trial.

A government that can put a man to death because a morally enraged mob demands it even though that individual has not broken any law is the same government that can crucify Jesus Christ.

Come on folks. Think it through. Don't *feel* it through - think it through.

794 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:03:03pm

re: #779 Charles

Saying that "most abortions are performed as a method of birth control" doesn't clarify anything. It says nothing about the reasons those women chose abortion; all it says is that they had no medical reason, and it wasn't because of rape or incest. You can't extrapolate from that to infer that the majority of women have abortions carelessly, on the spur of the moment, because they just feel like it.

And where did I say that?

I asserted that most abortions are done as a method of birth control. You asked for proof or references to back up that assertion. Very weel, I have provided it, from a pro-choice website, not less

The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.

I also provided references that some late term abortions are done for reasons other than the health of the baby or becuse of severe genetic abnormailities.

You & avanti had either asserted or implied otherwise., that most abortions were for non-birth control reasons. Clearly, respectfully, you were mistaken. You tried to dismiss my sources as invalid, even though the originating source of the data was from an organization which performs abortions, the CDC.


It says nothing about the reasons those women chose abortion;

The references I provided included a breakdown of reasons why the birth-control function of abortion was chosen:


* Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
* Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
* Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
* Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
* Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
* Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
795 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:03:19pm

re: #791 Charles

I didn't say they were "related" -- I said they were politically motivated.

I think it unlikely these charges of violation of the healing arts board would be politically motivated, as I have a license and practice in this state. He was being investigated because documents from his office showed violations of the healing arts statutes. So while he was not guilty in the criminal case, his license was in jeopardy.

796 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:05:10pm

re: #792 Charles

Obama's speech called for calmer rhetoric and debate. How could this have "stirred up the pot?"

On the other hand, the anti-abortion groups like Operation Rescue went insane about Obama's speech. I know who I think is responsible for "stirring up the pot," and it's not Barack Obama.

I said that was topic. The caller postulated that his bringing up the subject at all had stirred to pot. And yes Operation Rescue went insane, but this is kind of repetitive, and Roeder, who also was already insane, acted out. Olbermann, on the other hand says O'Reilly and Fox did it and people should demand that Fox be turned off in public venues.

797 Buck  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:05:20pm

re: #795 kansas

He was being investigated because documents from his office showed violations of the healing arts statutes. So while he was not guilty in the criminal case, his license was in jeopardy.

And that would have been good enough for me.

I can despise what Tiller did, and still not wish to see him murdered.

798 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:06:39pm

re: #797 Buck

And that would have been good enough for me.

I can despise what Tiller did, and still not wish to see him murdered.

I agree completely 100%. From what I have read, his practice did not conform to statues of the healing arts board that regulated it. However, the point is moot because some asshole murdered him.

799 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:07:08pm

re: #796 kansas

I said that was topic. The caller postulated that his bringing up the subject at all had stirred to pot. And yes Operation Rescue went insane, but this is kind of repetitive, and Roeder, who also was already insane, acted out. Olbermann, on the other hand says O'Reilly and Fox did it and people should demand that Fox be turned off in public venues.

If the anti-abortion groups hadn't made such a huge production out of Obama's speech at Notre Dame, he would have had no need to mention it in his speech. It was supposed to be a commencement speech, not a treatise on abortion -- it was the anti-abortion groups who ensured that the topic needed to be addressed.

800 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:07:30pm

re: #783 unrealizedviewpoint

We don't know what triggered him. You may right.

Holy crap. We've found stuff we can agree on. Who'da thunk?

Seriously, I don't want to tell people their moral viewpoint on abortion is wrong. I think there should be more legal limits on it, such as when it is used as birth control. We can argue about how often that happens, but I don't like it either. What I would like to see is more compassion and understanding for when it is a medical necessity. When parents are in truly incomprehensible situations such as when a child will not be able to survive after birth. I would also like to see people stop with the baby-killer talk and instead approach lawmakers with reason and compassion.

801 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:08:39pm

I have to leave this stimulating discussion. I thank everybody for contributing to a reasonable, rational debate on a notoriously difficult issue. Calls for calm rhetoric and reasoned debate are always good.

Peace and love.

802 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:09:08pm

re: #794 Kenneth

You & avanti had either asserted or implied otherwise., that most abortions were for non-birth control reasons. Clearly, respectfully, you were mistaken. You tried to dismiss my sources as invalid, even though the originating source of the data was from an organization which performs abortions, the CDC.

You're moving the goal posts. The discussion has been largely centered on the grey area between the beginning of viability around the 20th week in the middle of the second trimester and the third trimester at 28 weeks when (under U.S. law) elective abortions are no longer performed. Elective abortions do not comprise the majority of abortions in this period. Most elective abortions occur early.

803 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:09:55pm

re: #795 kansas

He was being investigated because documents from his office showed violations of the healing arts statutes. So while he was not guilty in the criminal case, his license was in jeopardy.

That is not a fact in evidence. It's your opinion. The document to which you link says these charges are "alleged" (as it should) and makes no mention of documents from his office.

804 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:10:17pm

re: #799 Charles

If the anti-abortion groups hadn't made such a huge production out of Obama's speech at Notre Dame, he would have had no need to mention it in his speech. It was supposed to be a commencement speech, not a treatise on abortion -- it was the anti-abortion groups who ensured that the topic needed to be addressed.

I agree with that. And what he said didn't stir me up. It sounded reasonable. But it might have set this guy off.

805 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:12:22pm

re: #792 Charles

Obama's speech called for calmer rhetoric and debate. How could this have "stirred up the pot?"

Telling crazy people to calm down pisses them off.

806 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:13:18pm

re: #805 Liberal Classic

Telling crazy people to calm down pisses them off.

Don't tell me to calm down!

/

807 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:13:24pm

re: #802 Liberal Classic

No, that is not the discussion I was involved in. Charles asked me for references to back up my assertions about the reasons for abortions. That I did. The minutia about when an abortion is called "late term" differs by jurisdictions and is irrelevant to my part in the discussion. You are attempting to insert a whole new set of goalposts into an already running debate.

808 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:15:59pm

re: #795 kansas

I think it unlikely these charges of violation of the healing arts board would be politically motivated, as I have a license and practice in this state. He was being investigated because documents from his office showed violations of the healing arts statutes. So while he was not guilty in the criminal case, his license was in jeopardy.

Are these the documents that Kline subpeoned from Tiller and Planned Parenthood to search for services provided to underage girls? The goal was to prove that Tiller was not reporting cases of statutory rape, and the investigation by the AGs office showed that he did in fact properly report those cases. Only when he was confronted with his pro-life bias did Kline get similar records of births to underage girls from hospitals to see if they reported as well....

809 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:20:05pm

re: #794 Kenneth

But that's exactly the discussion you were having in this comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You implied that having abortion as a method of birth control was often done for frivolous reasons. The pertinent quotes:

From avanti:

You seem to be under the impression spread by O"Reily and others that women routinely walked into Tiller's office in their 8th or 9th month, plucked down a check and had a healthy baby aborted.

Your response:

Do you believe it does not happen?

810 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:20:07pm

re: #803 Charles

That is not a fact in evidence. It's your opinion. The document to which you link says these charges are "alleged" (as it should) and makes no mention of documents from his office.

Yes, the charges are alleged. That's only fair until they are investigated.
But Tiller was under current investigation by the board for violations of the healing arts act. Not relevant to his murder, and I'm not saying it gave the guy a right to do anything. He probably wasn't even aware of the process.

811 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:20:54pm

re: #808 KansasMom

Are these the documents that Kline subpeoned from Tiller and Planned Parenthood to search for services provided to underage girls? The goal was to prove that Tiller was not reporting cases of statutory rape, and the investigation by the AGs office showed that he did in fact properly report those cases. Only when he was confronted with his pro-life bias did Kline get similar records of births to underage girls from hospitals to see if they reported as well....

Exactly right -- that's why I said the charges were politically motivated. They obviously were.

812 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:21:39pm

re: #808 KansasMom

Are these the documents that Kline subpeoned from Tiller and Planned Parenthood to search for services provided to underage girls? The goal was to prove that Tiller was not reporting cases of statutory rape, and the investigation by the AGs office showed that he did in fact properly report those cases. Only when he was confronted with his pro-life bias did Kline get similar records of births to underage girls from hospitals to see if they reported as well....

You know, to be honest, I assumed that, and have not seen them. I just know that Tiller was acquitted of criminal charges, but the board did not dismiss theirs. [Link: www.ksbha.org...]

813 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:22:42pm

re: #790 sattv4u2

You asked and/ or insisted at least a dozen times that Tiller would have been found guilty of something at sometime in the future. You were answered CIVILY at least a dozen times that there is NO law he broke, and what he was accused of he was found INNOCENT//NOT GUILTY of.

That ,, after admitting you knew NOTHING about the case

unnecessarily,,, heh!

Bull. You're throwing other crap in that wasn't spoken of yet:

You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?


And you responded:

Oh for fucks sake. The man is DEAD. Killed by a fucking NUT

Have anymore lost causes you want to belabor?


WTF are you talking about? I don't KansasMom, or anyone else for that matter but you having to make excuses for a lack of civility.

814 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:25:29pm

re: #808 KansasMom

Are these the documents that Kline subpeoned from Tiller and Planned Parenthood to search for services provided to underage girls? The goal was to prove that Tiller was not reporting cases of statutory rape, and the investigation by the AGs office showed that he did in fact properly report those cases. Only when he was confronted with his pro-life bias did Kline get similar records of births to underage girls from hospitals to see if they reported as well....

Look, here is what the board was investigating:
The petition filed includes 11 counts, alleging violations of the Healing Arts Act. Violations alleged include performing an abortion on a fetus that was viable without having a documented referral from another physician not legally or financially affiliated with him; unprofessional or dishonorable
conduct or professional incompetency; and commitment of acts likely to deceive, defraud or harm the public.

I would say at that point the motivation for the investigation wouldn't matter.

815 Liberal Classic  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:26:11pm

re: #807 Kenneth

No, that is not the discussion I was involved in. Charles asked me for references to back up my assertions about the reasons for abortions. That I did. The minutia about when an abortion is called "late term" differs by jurisdictions and is irrelevant to my part in the discussion. You are attempting to insert a whole new set of goalposts into an already running debate.

I respectfully disagree. I've been following this discussion. The trimester when the abortion occurs has been an important point from the beginning. I am not trying to "insert a new set of goalposts".

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

If anything, I think you shifted the your discussion away from late term towards all abortions mid-stream. It seems like to me you're trying to broaden the discussion in order to paint elective abortion in a bad light. Thus Charles' assertion that mothers who elect to abort do not do so frivolously. There was an unspoken attack in your post mothers who elect to have legal abortion with the same stigma of the late term abortions.

816 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:27:16pm

Maybe Roeder and/or Sullenger should be subjected to some enhanced interrogation techniques to see what else they know.

There could be another attack at any time.

Right?


/s

817 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:28:16pm

re: #800 KansasMom

Holy crap. We've found stuff we can agree on. Who'da thunk?

Seriously, I don't want to tell people their moral viewpoint on abortion is wrong. I think there should be more legal limits on it, such as when it is used as birth control. We can argue about how often that happens, but I don't like it either. What I would like to see is more compassion and understanding for when it is a medical necessity. When parents are in truly incomprehensible situations such as when a child will not be able to survive after birth. I would also like to see people stop with the baby-killer talk and instead approach lawmakers with reason and compassion.

I've had some amazingly reasonable conversations with pro-choice ppl over the years. It appears you and I could have one of those. :)

818 KansasMom  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:29:24pm

re: #814 kansas

Look, here is what the board was investigating:
The petition filed includes 11 counts, alleging violations of the Healing Arts Act. Violations alleged include performing an abortion on a fetus that was viable without having a documented referral from another physician not legally or financially affiliated with him; unprofessional or dishonorable
conduct or professional incompetency; and commitment of acts likely to deceive, defraud or harm the public.

I would say at that point the motivation for the investigation wouldn't matter.

I believe the part about a referral from a physician not legally or financially affiliated is the same as the court case against him.
Could it be that this is something that is automatic when legal charges are brought against a physician?

819 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:34:33pm

re: #818 KansasMom

I believe the part about a referral from a physician not legally or financially affiliated is the same as the court case against him.
Could it be that this is something that is automatic when legal charges are brought against a physician?

That's why I think that's where they got the information. However, that he was acquitted in a criminal trial, would be a separate issue than if the evidence they uncovered showed he had committed fraud and violated the healing arts statutes. I was responding to the claim that what Tiller was doing was completely legal. I'm not so sure it was, depending what we mean by legal. If he was violating the healing arts act and committing fraud, but not breaking the criminal law, then a case could be made for what he was doing not being completely legal. Having said, that I now am officially out of my legal depth, having had training only on Law and Order, and hope that I have added to the conversation.

820 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:37:52pm

re: #819 kansas

That's why I think that's where they got the information. However, that he was acquitted in a criminal trial, would be a separate issue than if the evidence they uncovered showed he had committed fraud and violated the healing arts statutes. I was responding to the claim that what Tiller was doing was completely legal. I'm not so sure it was, depending what we mean by legal. If he was violating the healing arts act and committing fraud, but not breaking the criminal law, then a case could be made for what he was doing not being completely legal. Having said, that I now am officially out of my legal depth, having had training only on Law and Order, and hope that I have added to the conversation.

The point, however, is that unless or until he was proven to be doing something illegal, it's completely accurate to say that he was doing nothing illegal. In the one case where he was brought to court on charges, he was completely acquitted.

821 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:49:47pm

re: #746 Charles

That's a real photo, but the claims made about it are exaggerated and false: snopes.com: Fetal Surgery Photo.


Curiouser and curiouser. Snopes stated that the hand just "flopped out" and was "tucked back in," almost as if the tiny hand had no life to it. The series of photos in the photographer's slideshow tells a different tale.

Here's a quote from Photographer Michael Clancy's Website giving his personal impression of the finger-grasping scene:

During a spina bifida corrective procedure at twenty-one weeks in utero, Samuel thrusts his tiny hand out of the surgical opening of his mother's uterus. As the doctor lifts his hand, Samuel reacts to the touch and squeezes the doctor's finger. As if testing for strength, the doctor shakes the tiny fist. Samuel held firm. At that moment, I took this "Fetal Hand Grasp" photo.

As a photojournalist, my job is to tell stories through pictures. The experience of taking this photograph has had a profound effect on me, and I'm proud to share this moment with you. Michael Clancy

There's more to this story than Snopes lets on. Read about Michael Clancy's frustration on how he scooped Life Magazine by taking these photos, and how the ensuing battle blunted his career:

"I went on to freelance for four years after the picture. It was very difficult after Dr. Bruner's statements questioning my credibility. Eventually I could not continue and stopped photojournalism in September 2003. I have become obsessed with proving to the world that I did capture the earliest interaction ever recorded.

Please study the three frames that were taken in sequence in the slide show. These frames were taken at 1/60th of a sec. as fast as my Canon 1N motor drive could shoot. The motion blur in the third frame explains what is happening. Watch Dr. Bruner's fingers, compare the first two frames to the third frame. The doctor's fingers are blurred because he is shaking them up and down in the third frame. The motion blur on Samuel's hand transfers to the upper part of his wrist as he grasps the doctor's finger. The only
possibly way Samuel's fingers are sharp, (in focus), are for Samuel to be winning in this exchange of human energy.

Notice in the third frame, the right side of the surgical opening. The edges are smooth. Now notice above Samuel's hand. You can see the surgical edge was damaged as Samuel thrust his hand out.

I didn't count on you before......now.......I am counting on you. The people of this great country. Study the three frames carefully. If you believe what you see, demand answers from Dr. Bruner, Dr. Tulipan, the medical staff at Vanderbilt University Medical Center that was present during this procedure
on Samuel. Ask questions. ... Have you ever seen a child reach out?"

In photograph #3, the tiny hand is plainly closing on the finger, compared to the other two photos. For whatever reason, the surgeon (Dr. Bruner) later made a damaging statement -- which doesn't agree with what you see in the photographs -- that effectively ruined Michael Clancy's career as a photographer.

It happens...
.

822 sattv4u2  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:52:44pm

re: #813 unrealizedviewpoint


You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?

Further prosecute a DEAD MAN ! ,, wow ,,,, just ,, WOW !

823 kansas  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 2:55:35pm

re: #820 Charles

The point, however, is that unless or until he was proven to be doing something illegal, it's completely accurate to say that he was doing nothing illegal. In the one case where he was brought to court on charges, he was completely acquitted.

It's accurate to say he was acquitted in his trial, and that the violations of the healing arts act were alleged because this idiot killed him before he could either acquit himself, or be found in violation.

I wish the board would have had the opportunity to complete it's investigation. Since the man is dead, talking about his possible transgressions of the healing arts act seems a little petty on my part.

There have been some things going on the with board here, suffice it to say that they were exposed by the media as having done little to protect the public, and there has been a big shake up. If the court case against Tiller showed he was possibly violating the healing arts act, then they would not be in the mood to overlook it.

824 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 3:06:32pm

re: #806 karmic_inquisitor

Don't tell me to calm down!

/

Sit Down and Shut Up!

/

825 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 3:09:34pm

re: #821 Tamron

Please. The doctor himself said that the fetus was anaesthetized, and couldn't have "grasped" anything.

826 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 3:12:45pm

One more note on the fetal picture: the photographer, Michael Clancy, is a fervent pro-life advocate. I trust the doctor's word, not his.

827 avanti  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 3:23:19pm

re: #826 Charles

One more note on the fetal picture: the photographer, Michael Clancy, is a fervent pro-life advocate. I trust the doctor's word, not his.

I hate that sort of dishonesty. You start with a respectable pro life position, then use whatever lies you can to try and validate it.

828 Tamron  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 3:24:57pm

re: #826 Charles

One more note on the fetal picture: the photographer, Michael Clancy, is a fervent pro-life advocate. I trust the doctor's word, not his.


Back to square one -- the doctor is also pro-life, because he called a 21-week-old fetus a 'baby.'

Sorry, Charles, I didn't know your inclination. Are you a fervent pro-abortion advocate, since you don't trust someone who is fervently pro-life? Whassup?
.

829 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 3:30:48pm

re: #828 Tamron

Back to square one -- the doctor is also pro-life, because he called a 21-week-old fetus a 'baby.'

Sorry, Charles, I didn't know your inclination. Are you a fervent pro-abortion advocate, since you don't trust someone who is fervently pro-life? Whassup?
.

I'm in favor of the truth. The truth is that the fetus and mother were both anaesthetized, and the fetus could not have grasped anything.

830 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 4:50:57pm

re: #822 sattv4u2

You really believe the Right to Lifer's were going to let this drop and not push for further prosecution?

Further prosecute a DEAD MAN ! ,, wow ,,,, just ,, WOW !

What's wrong with you? You very well know what that quote of mine is with regard to because you replied to it earlier. The conversation was about - if the man was not killed, the Right to Lifer's would never drop the it. They'd seek prosecution till the end of days.
Screw you - you insolent punk.

831 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 4:54:25pm

re: #815 Liberal Classic

Your reading of my conversation is not the one I understood while having it. At no point did I claim anybody was frivolous.

"Thus Charles' assertion that mothers who elect to abort do not do so frivolously. There was an unspoken attack in your post mothers who elect to have legal abortion with the same stigma of the late term abortions."

You don't seriously expect me to respond to your invention of an attack I never made?

832 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 5:06:25pm

re: #809 Charles

But that's exactly the discussion you were having in this comment:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You implied that having abortion as a method of birth control was often done for frivolous reasons. The pertinent quotes:

I did not use the word frivolous. I did assert that most abortions are performed for reasons of birth control. At your request I provided links to references which supported my assertions. Now if you wish to characterize "birth control" as a frivolous reason, so be it. Maybe that's something for you to think about. But it was a word I neither used or implied.

I also provided a break down of the motivations for birth control abortions, some of which are anything but frivolous.

Liberal Classic insists I moved the goal posts. Well what do you call insisting that I implied a word I never used or included an "unspoken attack"? That's not moving the goal posts, that's shifting the whole damn field.

I would love to debate this topic further, with anybody, but please stick to things I actually wrote. I find it very unfair to be asked to defend so-called implied and unspoken phrases.

833 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 5:15:19pm

re: #829 Charles

The conditions of this photo aside, it has been demonstrated that a fetus, at a certain point, will develop a grip reflex and even suckle its thumb inside the womb. Cute photos of this sort of thing are used as an emotional argument for what is a clear medical fact: fetuses are alive.

834 Lynn B.  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 5:19:25pm

re: #830 unrealizedviewpoint

The problem is, you continue to make claims you can't back up based on nothing more than your own personal conjecture. You really have no idea whether there was enough evidence to have brought further legal action against Dr. Tiller. Just because there were people who wouldn't accept the jury's verdict doesn't mean they would have convinced the authorities to bring a case.

And then there's this.

re: #381 unrealizedviewpoint

At $5000 each, Tiller earned millions of dollars yearly performing late term abortions, his specialty. It's hard for me not to think of this man in any other way.

There were a total of 323 late term abortions performed in Kansas in 2008 and even fewer the year before (and that's according to Lifenews.com). In all of Kansas. Assuming that Dr. Tiller performed half of them (which is a stretch) and taking at face value your unsubstantiated claim that he was charging $5,000 for each, you still get nowhere near "millions of dollars yearly."

But feel free to keep the hyperbole coming.

835 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 5:21:00pm

re: #832 Kenneth

So, if I understand you, you're agreeing with me that the vast majority of women do not have abortions for frivolous reasons?

836 Kenneth  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 5:29:59pm

re: #835 Charles

Yes that is true. In only a small percentage of cases would I argue that birth control abortions are frivolous. The reasons of the woman's health or severe genetic disorders of the fetus are never frivolous. I was not even thinking in terms of frivolity when I wrote my posts.

My assertion that the majority of abortions are performed for reasons of birth control remains well supported by the statistics.

837 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 5:42:01pm

re: #834 Lynn B.

The problem is, you continue to make claims you can't back up based on nothing more than your own personal conjecture. You really have no idea whether there was enough evidence to have brought further legal action against Dr. Tiller. Just because there were people who wouldn't accept the jury's verdict doesn't mean they would have convinced the authorities to bring a case.

And then there's this.

re: #381 unrealizedviewpoint

There were a total of 323 late term abortions performed in Kansas in 2008 and even fewer the year before (and that's according to Lifenews.com). In all of Kansas. Assuming that Dr. Tiller performed half of them (which is a stretch) and taking at face value your unsubstantiated claim that he was charging $5,000 for each, you still get nowhere near "millions of dollars yearly."

But feel free to keep the hyperbole coming.

Even KansasMom earlier agreed that the Right to Lifer's would never have given up. Can we prove the unprovable? Of course not. It need be conjecture on both out parts.

IR: Your 2nd point:
Using the #'s you just agreed to (I didn't pick them, you presented them). $5000 times 323 late term procedures equals one million six hundred fifteen thousand dollars yearly. Now lets add maybe another, oh I don't know, (any number you want really) how bout just a million for the hundreds of 2nd trimester & 1st trimester abortions. If that doesn't equal millions (after one takes away expenses), I'm a monkeys uncle.

838 Lynn B.  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 8:15:28pm

re: #837 unrealizedviewpoint

I'm going to respond to this and then put you on scrollover. You seem impermeable to rational argument so please don't continue to complain when people feel it necessary to apply a bit more pressure.

KansasMom agreed that the loonies wouldn't have given up. That doesn't mean, however, that their pressure would have induced a prosecution. You see, prosecutors generally require an actual chance that they'll prevail (unless the prosecution is simple harassment) before they bring a case.

As for your math, again, you're way off. You're assuming, first of all, that every late term abortion in Kansas was performed by Dr. Tiller. I granted you half, which is absurdly "generous." and still comes in way under $1 million, let alone your claim of "millions." And as you yourself pointed out, Dr. Tiller (to use your own words) "specialized." So trying to tack on other procedures that he obviously performed rarely if at all is just plain disingenuous on your part.

As I said, keep digging.

839 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 9:32:05pm

re: #838 Lynn B.

I'm going to respond to this and then put you on scrollover. You seem impermeable to rational argument so please don't continue to complain when people feel it necessary to apply a bit more pressure.

KansasMom agreed that the loonies wouldn't have given up. That doesn't mean, however, that their pressure would have induced a prosecution. You see, prosecutors generally require an actual chance that they'll prevail (unless the prosecution is simple harassment) before they bring a case.

As for your math, again, you're way off. You're assuming, first of all, that every late term abortion in Kansas was performed by Dr. Tiller. I granted you half, which is absurdly "generous." and still comes in way under $1 million, let alone your claim of "millions." And as you yourself pointed out, Dr. Tiller (to use your own words) "specialized." So trying to tack on other procedures that he obviously performed rarely if at all is just plain disingenuous on your part.

As I said, keep digging.


I guess I could say it is you who is impermeable to rational argument. But I won't in attempt to keep the debate civil.

It was Governor Kathleen Sebelius, Øbama's current Secretary of Health and Human Services that held up the prosecution of Tiller. An often avoided or overlooked fact by many pro-choice ppl. As to whether future prosecution would have been successful we'll never know. It's easy for you to make a claim that it wouldn't have been, as I can't prove you wrong. It works both ways though.

As for the math - you are wrong. According to the National Abortion Federation, Dr. George Tiller was the 'only' late term abortion provider in Kansas. There is only one other clinic in Kansas that does abortions and they don't do late term abortions. The closest late term abortion provider is in Boulder, Colorado. Therefore Tiller had all the business. I stand by my numbers. Tiller performed every reported late term abortion in Kansas. Here's a Witchita article to substantiate. Why do you have so much trouble with the numbers. It shouldn't matter to you. The number of abortions or the money he made is irrelevant if you believe his work was noble. Could it be that's not the case? Maybe just a little bit?

840 SummerSong  Tue, Jun 2, 2009 10:13:45pm

When did late term abortions get designated to be performed in just a few locations in the U.S.? I'm not complaining, I just didn't know that it ended up that way.

841 Yashmak  Wed, Jun 3, 2009 8:08:13am

re: #793 karmic_inquisitor

Again - we have the willingness to abandon a key protection from an abusive government.

The right to a fair trial.

A government that can put a man to death because a morally enraged mob demands it even though that individual has not broken any law is the same government that can crucify Jesus Christ.

Come on folks. Think it through. Don't *feel* it through - think it through.

Well said. And no matter how one tries to justify it by equating it with Auschwitz guards, or what-not, there's no way around this crucial point.


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